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Voting for Christmas

Posted on July 05, 2014 by

There’s a curious piece in today’s Guardian about the Scotstoun area of Glasgow, home to the shipbuilding yard of BAE Systems. It typifies what’s perhaps the most successful and consistent strategy that the No campaign has managed to deploy in the entire independence debate. Let’s listen in.

“The industry’s once mighty labour force has dwindled to around 3,200, divided between here and nearby Govan, and including some workers seconded east to Rosyth.

The loss of community is still keenly felt. ‘When I was a child in the 60s you could time everything by the hooters from the yards,’ recalls local historian Sandra Malcolm. ‘Now you don’t even hear a dredger.’

Since the destruction of most of Glasgow’s heavy industry, Scotstoun has become a byword for poverty. Of 4,000 residents, 59% were identified in the most recent Scottish index of multiple deprivation as being in the most deprived 10% of the population.

‘This used to be a thriving area,’ says Barrie, ‘with a crown post office, a butchers and banks, but now it’s all mobile phone shops and takeaways. There used to be queues out the door.’

It is not simply that people’s shopping habits have changed, but that many more cannot shop at all. ‘A lot of people have lost their jobs so they don’t have the money to spend. You hear about more and more people going to food banks.’

‘It’s getting drummed into the young ones to get an education,’ says Love. ‘But my nephew went to the University of Dundee and now he’s working in Poundland.'”

Decay, neglect, poverty, unemployment and starvation have been the legacies of the Union for the people of Scotstoun. Under both Conservative and Labour governments at Westminster, their proud industry has been (and even now continues to be) slowly destroyed with nothing created to replace it. Their town centres are dying, the talents and potential of their children are being wasted. And yet the people are so beaten and cowed by the decades of deprivation that they’re afraid of anything changing.

In Scotstoun, the “positive case for the Union” comes, literally, in the form of the words DOOM and GLOOM. Glasgow MP Ian Davidson, appeared on national TV yesterday categorically guaranteeing that the shipyards would lose all their work in the event of a Yes vote – something he’s in no position to either know or promise, but says anyway to induce terror in the electorate and ensure his own gravy-train job stays secure.

doomgloom

It’s surely one of the most bitter aspects of the No campaign that the appalling ruin the Union has inflicted on so many of Scotland’s poorest areas is the very thing used as a reason to vote to keep it. It remains only to be seen whether the people will buckle under the intimidation and make a success of Project Fear.

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  1. 05 07 14 11:59

    Voting for Christmas | Scottish Independence News

136 to “Voting for Christmas”

  1. macart763m says:

    Decades of neglect and an electorate left to rot in poverty. The only time any heed is paid to their plight is when some trougher needs to keep their meal ticket rolling. Shortly thereafter to be forgotten for another five years.

    We can do this Glasgow. Show Cameron and the careerists the door. They have served you not at all and left you and your communities to ruin.

    September 18th you get the one and only real chance you’ll ever have to let them know what you think and change that cycle of neglect.

  2. Good words, Stu. Good words.

  3. heedtracker says:

    ‘It’s getting drummed into the young ones to get an education,’ says Love. ‘But my nephew went to the University of Dundee and now he’s working in Poundland.’”

    Sophisticated No Thanks attack, very creepy vote NO pressure trying to destroy hopes and aspiration, bettertogether with the teamGB you know etc. But Vote No Guardian journos like Libby Carrell are pretty gifted ukok attack propagandists with a visceral cunning.

  4. Croompenstein says:

    He is working in poundland because within the union our industry has been decimated.

  5. Lesley-Anne says:

    In the second half of the 1700’s we had the Highland clearances and everyone’s favourite Duke, the Duke of Sutherland (spit.)

    In 2014 we have his descendants in the form of Ian Davidson, David Cameron, Ed Milliband, George Osborne, Ed Balls and of course not forgetting ID bloody S!

    Aye well THIS time the Scots are rebelling against these 21st Century *ahem* Dukes and we WILL beat them down so far that it will be THEM not us who will be left to crawl away from Scotland!

  6. Dan Huil says:

    British nationalists want people to be ill-informed; it’s the only way they can garner any support.
    Surely the people of Scotstoun realise they have nothing lose but poverty and pessimism.
    They shouldn’t be afraid of a better future in an independent Scotland.

  7. Bazzbuddy says:

    The language used in the leaflet implies that the UK government has nothing but contempt for Scottish shipyards!!!

    ** With independence we can only get “the scraps from the UK table” but then again we are so bad at manufacturing those scraps will go to EU yards. **

    Hardly a ringing endorsement of the excellent yards and their workforce in Glasgow and Rosyth!!!

  8. seanair says:

    YES Scotland should swamp the place with posters pointing out the truth, ie all the jobs lost so far have been under Labour and Tory governments, and why there will continue to be work on Scottish Naval vessels in the future.

  9. yerkitbreeks says:

    I’m in the fortunate position of being a higher rate taxpayer and know perfectly well after my YES vote I’m likely to have to pay more to help begin to undo this tragedy – which is going to take at least a generation to achieve.

    Unlike most of my friends up in Aberdeen who are Nos – why rock the boat if you have two cars, two foreign holidays annually and a pension, eh ?

  10. Proud Cybernat says:

    Apologies O/T

    Have the Orange Walk going past my window right now in Glasgow city centre, flying their Vote No banners. Never seen such an embarrassing sight in my life. Scotland’s Shame. I am certain this sight will have converted many an undecided to YES Positive.

  11. Scots Renewables says:

    Utterly off topic – sorry – but I just had an idea I wanted to share.

    Now the balloon is not going to get off the ground how about bespoke YES kites?

    Peter Powell stunt kites can be made with your own logo – see <a href="http://www.peterpowellkites.co.uk/product/stunt-kite-bespoke-design/&quot;HERE – and I am sure there are other types of kite that could be customised. It could be a cheap and effective way of getting YES into the skies.

  12. caz-m says:

    Can I give a quick geographyhistory lesson to people who are not familiar with the Clyde.

    BAE Systems has two shipyards on the Clyde. The Govan yard sits on the south bank of the Clyde about three miles west of the city centre. The Scotstoun yard is a further three west of Govan on the north bank of the Clyde.

    Scotstoun, for decades, has always built frigates for the Royal Navy, that is their speciality. Govan always built the heavier ships, either commercial or MOD.

    That is why the new Type 26 Frigates will be built at the Scotstoun yard.

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/future-of-the-yards-why-2-into-1-just-wont-fit-151100n.23365257

    And under Westminster rule, BAE may close the Govan yard.

    It has nothing to do with SNP policy or Independence. It is purely an economic argument.

  13. Chic McGregor says:

    One day I won’t need to keep this on file.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/grv0n0vzxp2idlh/ArcofAusterityWhy.jpg

  14. Scots Renewables says:

    (sorry for the duplicate post – the link was malformed in the previous post and no edit facility . . . )

    Utterly off topic – sorry – but I just had an idea I wanted to share.

    Now the balloon is not going to get off the ground how about bespoke YES kites?

    Peter Powell stunt kites can be made with your own logo – see HERE – and I am sure there are other types of kite that could be customised. It could be a cheap and effective way of getting YES into the skies.

  15. Brian Mchugh says:

    Scotstoun has not become a byword for poverty.

    There is a small area right near the docks to Victoria Park Drive, which is old, not well kept tenements and there are some high rises up near the Kingsway and near the train station, but the vast majority of Scotstoun is actually quite affluent.

    Go on Google Street view around Scotstoun Sports Centre or go to Scotstoun Hill… say around Earlbank Avenue… or over at the Mitre Road area on the North of the park…

    …Hardly a by-word for poverty!

  16. Gina Robertson says:

    ‘There will only be scraps from the UK table and even those will be completed by EU yards.’. So, they are admitting that they will deliberately sstop work in Scotland and take their new contracts outside the UK, just to punish the Scottish people for wanting better. Even though they love spouting ‘mod contrae have never been awarded to outside the UK’. Go ahead rUK, with neighboyrs like you, who needs enemies.

  17. Drunken Hobo says:

    This is one of the few occasions where words like “("Quizmaster" - Ed)” and “("Tractor" - Ed)” are appropriate. Ian Davidson once again fighting for job losses in his own constituency should Scotland choose independence.

    How does he justify this? Is it really a case of “the end justifies the means” to the Better Together camp?

  18. Lesley-Anne says:

    Proud Cybernat says:

    Apologies O/T

    Have the Orange Walk going past my window right now in Glasgow city centre, flying their Vote No banners. Never seen such an embarrassing sight in my life. Scotland’s Shame. I am certain this sight will have converted many an undecided to YES Positive.

    I’m sure PC that by marching in their Orange Order uniforms the Orange Order numbskulls are actually breaking the law, the Public Order Act of 1936 to be exact.

    http://tinyurl.com/m82op4t

    I think this section in particular lays out the reason, in my view, why they are breaking the law. Remember they have registered with the Electoral Commission as official supporters of the NO campaign so that must make them now a political organisation.

    Prohibition of uniforms in connection with political objects.

    (1)Subject as hereinafter provided, any person who in any public place or at any public meeting wears uniform signifying his association with any political organisation or with the promotion of any political object shall be guilty of an offence:

    Provided that, if the chief officer of police is satisfied that the wearing of any such uniform as aforesaid on any ceremonial, anniversary, or other special occasion will not be likely to involve risk of public disorder, he may, with the consent of a Secretary of State, by order permit the wearing of such uniform on that occasion either absolutely or subject to such conditions as may be specified in the order.

  19. Big Jock says:

    If we are basing our entire shipbuilding industry on peacemeal handouts from the Great British Navy.God help us in this ticking time bomb called the UK.The military men send young Scots to die on foreign fields.Why would I put the future of my country in their hands.I couldn’t give a toss about the Royal Navy.I care about our people and in Scotland we can procure commercial and military contracts out with England and the narrow dimension of the English Navy.We will regenerate industry in Scotland but not by only having one customer.The irony is that its our taxpayers money that is keeping these men in jobs not the government or a third party.Money goes in and Whitehall spend it on useless warships and pay the workers with their own taxes.That’s just not a sensible way to generate wealth or growth.If we base our country’s future on 3000 jobs in a narrow niche industry then we really need to give ourselves a good shake.Any yard managers encouraging their workers to vote no is just a narrow personalisation of the concept of a nation.These types don’t care about social equality or justice.They just want to pay their mortgage and collect their pensions and to hell with the collective.I have heard the same crap from scientific researchers.Again looking after their niche seems more important than their nation.I do despair sometimes that some people just don’t get what being a nation means.Contrary to perceived wisdom nationhood is ultimately and correctly a decision of the heart.Normal people don’t get married to improve their bank balance.Its a decision of the heart.That’s hat we are voting for in September.

  20. Boabyfett says:

    I aspire to live in Scotstoun. Your talking about 350k for a 3 bed house there.

    Now Whiteinch is another matter

  21. Proud Cybernat says:

    Johann Lamont “Yes vote could end Scotland’s shipbuilding industry.”

    “…it is estimated that over 300 firms have engaged in shipbuilding on Clydeside although probably a peak of 30-40 at any one time…Today, two major shipyards remain in operation on the Upper Clyde… the former Yarrow yard at Scotstoun and Fairfields at Govan… On the Lower Clyde, the privately owned Ferguson Shipbuilders at Port Glasgow is the last survivor of the many shipyards that once dominated Port Glasgow and Greenock…” – Wiki.

    And, as we now know, Govan is also to be shut down by its owners, BAE Systems with the loss of 835 jobs. So, a total now of just 2 shipyards on the Clyde which once boasted 30-40 yards at any given time.

    Independent Norway, by contrast, presently has around 10 shipyards operating.

    I suppose Better Together regard this disastrous decline of Scotland’s industrial ship building base as just another ‘Union Dividend’?

    Scotland needs the diversity a YES vote will bring, not the dependency of a No vote.

  22. The Man in the Jar says:

    Looking at the pamphlet in the photo. Even the “Scottish Labour” bit is a lie. I think the only “fact” on the damn thing is Davidsons name.

  23. Chic McGregor says:

    My Glasgow relatives were mainly in the Scotstoun area. We visited often when I was a child. I remember well the fossilised trees in Victoria park. Seemed an affluent area back then.

  24. galamcennalath says:

    All the NaeSayers can offer is ill founded fears and jingoism. And above are both nicely rolled up together. I suppose it’s the kernel of their argument, but to built it on their past failures, that perverts reality and stoops as low as you can go.

    Norway (again) appears to have sustained a diverse shipbuilding industry, where did Scotland go wrong? Simple, we wasted decades not being independent of London mismanagement.

  25. Big Jock says:

    Lesley Ann I drove through a place called Greegairs on Friday.The scum were putting Union flags on lampposts.I have Yes stickers all over my car and had a wry smile on my face.Think of them as like a beetle on its back with its legs wriggling in its death throws.It will soon be game over for these Neanderthals in September.

  26. john king says:

    After posting on “Casual as you like” realised no one would see it so here it is again,

    Caz-m says
    “Anyone got any idea how the big night out went in Embra?

    Concerned Winger.”

    Why were you no there? I was looking forward to meeting you and others who WEREN’T there!

    Btw Yesguy
    Irene did a head count when she did the raffle and she counted between 70 and 80,
    remember there was only seating for 40,
    on the subject of our conversation in the Black Bull, I’ll never forget what you told me, it just makes me all the more determined to agitate for a yes vote,more power to you man.

    Lesley-Anne
    your visitors turned up yet?
    Alex did you find you merchandise?

    So sorry I didn’t see your badge until you were leaving FoS all the while I was talking to you I didn’t realise I was speaking to the one and only Flower of Scotland, 🙂

    JO you know who you are ,
    get posting
    NO REALLY. 😉

    Wingman2020 absolute pleasure to have met you

    You look after yourself Conan but I have to say you were looking well last night,

    Ronnie, don’t be a big girl ,I wont bite you
    well not hard anyway,
    Really glad to see you came along Handclapping, but we all really need to get smart with these things if anyone from our neck of the woods needs a lift to these things I’m always happy to oblige, that includes you Geoff. 😉

    I think Thepnr has been compiling a list of emails to pass to others if you need mine or if I can have yours let Thepnr know.

    Jock Scot and Ninja Penguin a joy as always to meet you again,
    the invitation stands Jock I could be along at yours in a few minutes and take you back to mine for a drink and a meal if your up for it, just let me know.

    I think I need a lie down now.

  27. Free at 63! says:

    Brian McHugh is right. I wouldn’t class Scotstoun as poverty-stricken; there are, unfortunately, many areas of Glasgow in a much worse position.

    When you come up from Scotstoun shipyard onto Dumbarton Road there is a ‘Yes’ billboard on which someone has painted out the ‘Vote Yes’ and painted ‘No’ above it. Guess they believe the lies.

  28. Jimbo says:

    I have a mate working at the Govan shipyard who has fallen for this keech.

    No matter that an independent Scotland will be able to to build it’s own ships, whether for the Scottish government or private contract, he seems to think MoD orders are the only game in town.

  29. Juan P says:

    ‘This used to be a thriving area,’ says Barrie, ‘with a crown post office, a butchers and banks, but now it’s all mobile phone shops and takeaways. There used to be queues out the door.’

    I’m confused. The fact that under the governance of the UK the town is no longer thriving and doesn’t have some fairly bog standard amenities is a reason to vote No?

    If we applied the same logic to sport we would have kept Craig Levein as manager on the basis that Strachan might have made things even worse.

  30. Jim Marshall says:

    When I was a boy in the 50s I stood on the George V1 bridge (this was the last bridge over the river then )and looked down the Clyde. You could not see the banks for ships.Glasgow was a major port and shipbuilding centre.

    Look down the same view today and the river is completely empty.No commercial activity whatsoever.This is what Labour in Glasgow and glorious British union has brought it to.

    Surely the Glasgow voters will dump Labour and the union.

  31. john king says:

    Proud Cybernat says
    “Have the Orange Walk going past my window right now in Glasgow city centre, flying their Vote No banners”

    I would be willing to bet using an orange march to air political views would be a breach of electoral commissions rules
    report the bastards.

  32. JLT says:

    I said this the other day there…

    It’s a question which if put to most folk, they will acknowledge that Westminster has treated the shipbuilding industry appallingly. No one can defend it. How could they? The demise of shipbuilding has been on Westminster’s watch.

    However, those same unionists (…bafflingly) will state that Independence will the death knell of shipbuilding. they seem to be under the illusion that something is better than nothing! So 3,000 shipbuilders is better than zero shipbuilders. God …they would probably say that 10 builders would be better than zero builders and therefore, that is a case for the Union (honestly …they would!)

    To be honest, the only way to really counter this argument, is the Scottish Government to publish a detailed document of what they will do with the shipyards post-Yes. If it includes detailed explanations of how they will revamp the dockyards, then it might just kill the Unionist argument.

    Even if the dockyards are more or less up to date anyway, just saying that they will modernise it, will surely either have the Unionists pointing out that (A) it already is modernised (which then means Scotland is ready to take on major orders for shipbuilding and we’re open for business) or (B) that the Unionists have to match what is being offered and thus, invest in the Dockyards.

    Either way …it would kill the argument (and just to be twisted, it throws up another useful option (C) it will shut Lamont up at the same time and end her diatribe about shipbuilding and independence!)

    Basically, the Yes Camp need to come out and explain how they will invest in the shipyards post-YES. Do that, and they will kill this argument stone dead. For if Yes explain how they will invest, then it puts the No camp into a quandary. Do they come out and ‘promise’ to invest, or do they just clam up? Such a move will take away one of the ‘no’ camp’s pillars.

  33. Chic McGregor says:

    @Scotrenewables

    “Utterly off topic – sorry – but I just had an idea I wanted to share.

    Now the balloon is not going to get off the ground how about bespoke YES kites?

    Peter Powell stunt kites can be made with your own logo – see HERE – and I am sure there are other types of kite that could be customised. It could be a cheap and effective way of getting YES into the skies.”

    Sounds like a good idea to me 😉 (suggested it a while back with maybe Wings kite days on Glasgow Green, The meadows,The inch, Camperdown park, Bucht park etc.)

  34. Big Jock says:

    No don’t stop them they add a percentage to yes everytime they bang their drum out of time.Remember “Its A Wonderful life”.Every time a bell rings an Angel gets its wings..same thing..

  35. Chic McGregor says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    Agree entirely with the substance of your post, although the following list would imply that there are rather more than 10 shipyards in Norway.

    http://www.ship2yard.com/area_country.php?o=321

  36. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ John King

    I would be willing to bet using an orange march to air political views would be a breach of electoral commissions rules report the bastards.

    I would say leave them to it–never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake. (Napoleon).

  37. Muscleguy says:

    @Yerkitbreeks

    And it isn’t as though the oil industry is going to disappear from Aberdeen with Independence, is it? In fact the logic of independence means more head offices are likely to move back here, meaning more job opportunities for them, not fewer.

  38. Lesley-Anne says:

    I know how you feel BJ. Our wee Jeep is just slightly *ahem* covered with the *cough* occasional poster/sticker. 😛

    Funnily enough my partner was in Tesco car park in Annan yesterday when she was approached by a knuckle dragger. During the *ahem* discussion they had Westminster came up and wouldn’t you know it the knuckle dragger heard “we’re against Westminster and their evil cuts” but in reality he actually heard “we hate the English!” Go figure! 😉 Needless to say my partner left before she gave him one hell of a *cough* slapping! 😛 It gets better though because he admitted to being a supporter of UKIP! It gets better though cause once inside Tesco she saw him coming up one aisle as she was going down. Well let’s just say that must have been the fastest he has ever gone down that aisle, head down feet going ten to the dozen. 😛

    It’s still a wee bit early for the WOS “village idiot” investigators to arrive John. I’m expecting them in about another hour, bacon butties are getting ready to go on. 😉

  39. Muscleguy says:

    Not to mention that the Graun’s Scotland news site has three articles on the bloody aircraft carrier.

    I just love the picture with a fighter perched on the nearly redundant ramp for the naming ceremony. Is it a cardboard replica or was money spent trucking it to Rosyth and lifting it into place specially? To pretend there are aircraft that can fly from it.

    The Graun are clearly too stupid, too uncaring or too complicit to recognise a piece of propaganda they should be avoiding or trying to subvert. But this isn’t ordinary propaganda, this is Britnat propaganda.

  40. Big Jock says:

    Excellent quote John.Someone on another website suggested union jacks on houses were a good idea.It let’s the public know that they won’t want to meet the people inside.lol

  41. john king says:

    Here’s a good one for you,

    She made me take her to Morrisons for veggies, well they are cheap,
    and in spite of my view about them I did as I was told, but in her inimitable fashion she made sure they would remember her visit as she put Aye Right leaflets all over the shop including licking one (yeuch) and sticking to the entry door and she even put them inside some of the newspapers
    Ye cannie tak her anywhere she’s an embarrassment so’in she is. 🙁

  42. Harry McAye says:

    Am I missing something? None of the folk quoted have said anything about their voting intentions. They could all be Yes voters for all we know.

  43. caz-m says:

    O/T

    BBC News is celebrating 60 years of state propaganda and lies today. They must be feeling so proud of themselves down at Pacific Quay.

    A wee reminder,

    PQ3 at the Quay, Sunday 27th July 2014.

  44. Harry McAye says:

    Still not had my Yes flag incidentally.

  45. Nana Smith says:

    Elderly lady I have just spoken with said

    “why is there never any good news about independence, strange that we only ever hear how bad it will be”
    She went on to say even if she lost her bus pass and fuel allowance to be free of Westminster would be for the best.

    She can’t understand why anyone would vote no knowing what has been done to us for years. She had some choice words about Gordon Brown which made my ears tingle…

  46. BleuBelle says:

    Seanair: “YES Scotland should swamp the place with posters pointing out the truth ..” YES Scotland seem to be preaching to the converted and focussing on wordy online articles quoting stats, graphs and figures. We need some short, snappy rebuttals; everything seems so dull and ‘nice’, including some of the people delivering the message. I’m afraid I can’t be bothered reading their lengthy posts on Facebook most of the time. I know they are up against it with MSM and the local campaigns are great, but there must be a lot of people the messages aren’t reaching. Time for gloves off, PR-wise?

  47. Norma says:

    I just don’t get it. The article is describing the place in decline now!! I would have thought that was all the more reason for independence. The decline has come after years of union rule so why should continuing union rule see anything different? As far as I can see it is a reason to vote Yes then we can take matters into our own hands to build the industry up again.

  48. Allan28 says:

    The UK Government has exclusively used BAE Systems as its prime contractor for major defence projects for some time. They have nowhere else to build Type 26 Frigates under their control (unless, I suppose they invested huge sums in another yard – which the Government would be asked to pay for – and hence unlikely).

    The Portsmouth yard never built ships of this size since the 1960s. The recent builds there were either patrol boats or modules for larger vessels. It would have required major investment to build complete larger vessels. Portsmouth has in any event been closed as a shipbuilding yard by BAE and the MOD are currently trying to find another party (or parties) to lease the yard or parts of it. The 30th of June was set as a closing date by the MOD’s agents, Lambert Smith Hampton.

    Anyone claiming that these Frigates would be built elsewhere after Independence should be asked the simple question ‘where else would they be built?’.

  49. alexicon says:

    I would be willing to bet using an orange march to air political views would be a breach of electoral commissions rules
    report the bastards.

    Nope, they have registered with the electrol commission as a no campaign group.

    As someone has already suggested let them get on with it, they will probably drive more votes to the YES side.

  50. john king says:

    Just on our way out to Saint Andrews to pinch plants (only kidding) from the Botanic Gardens, and Irene just remembered she didn’t buy cream for my porridge (I heard that, stop laughing at my gut at the back there)
    and she wants me to go back into Morrison’s AGAIN, I get the real feeling butter fingers will probably drop some more Aye right leaflets again,

    They really don’t know who they’re messing with. 😉

  51. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Chic McGregor 11:19am

    Had a look at your link, Chic. Seems a lot of the firms listed there are not actually shipbuilding yards. I found my information from this link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shipyards_of_Norway

  52. caz-m says:

    Proud Cybernat

    The Orange Order carrying “Vote No” banners, I do hope there are pictures and videos of this.

    That would be dynamite.

    I wonder if Johann Lamont, Jim Murphy and John Reid where at the Orange Walk today. They would have been so proud of their fellow unionists flying their Union Jack flags and “Vote No” banners.

    These last two days must have Scottish Unionists just bursting out all over with pride.

  53. heedtracker says:

    What we’re up against http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotsman-cartoon-trident-and-scottish-independence-1-3376150

    Mr Darling urged Mr Salmond to agree to a televised debate with him in the run-up to the referendum.
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independence-white-paper-should-scare-scots-1-3255313

  54. galamcennalath says:

    There are three main types of No voter….

    There’s the Labour voter who hasn’t engaged in the debate. They haven’t been exposed to the full pro-independence arguments. They get their news from the MSM, especially tabloids. Their No support is soft and they can be swayed. The NO sales pitch above is in part aimed to keep them from straying to YES. This is the group that needs focused on.

    There’s the mainly rural, but also plush suburb, Tory. “I OK in the UK”. They are self centred and from that standpoint the Union suits them just fine.

    Then, there’s the group which really puzzle me. Working class people who should have nothing to fear from independence and much to gain. Yet, for strange historical reasons, they feel unshakable allegiance to the Union. It’s almost faith based. Typified by Orangemen, SDL, etc etc. I have doubts if their faith in the Union Flag can be shaken! They may be a lost cause.

    The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?

  55. john king says:

    Alexicon says

    “Nope, they have registered with the electrol commission as a no campaign group.”

    I know they are but I would be willing to bet they are given permission for a OO march not a political rally means they cant incorporate other agenda’s into their idiotic marches, the cops would have the right to prevent them, but the point about not interrupting you enemy when he’s making a mistake is a good argument for letting them get on with it, but it would be icing on the cake if they were dragged through the courts after we win in September. 🙂

    Any thoughts on that point Stu?

  56. Chic McGregor says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    OK

    That link was from elsewhere, in response to someone querying if there were more than 40 yards (which someone else had claimed).

  57. Just an observation says:

    I live in Australia and I have been really surprised by a heap of pro-monarchy TV, internet and radio media here in the last 2 days about the launch of the new navy ship in Rosyth.

    My interpretation of my observations is that with this unusual batch of media comms the monarchy media slot in Australia has been used to communicate the following messages to the Australian people:
    – rUK are kind to Scotland (heavy symbolism of smashing whisky rather than champagne) and use of word ‘Scotland’ much more than usual;
    – Britain is united and strong (union flags very prominent in footage);
    – Scottish independence is deeply unpopular in Scotland and quite rightfully inappropriate (“brief footage of Salmond boo-ed by some naval staff”)
    – Britain is a superpower that is churning out big warships (inference that Australia needs this)

    The news I’ve seen here is in a different planet from this article, but it’s the same scope.

    It’s just an observation.

  58. Derek M says:

    You know i would be worried about this ploy from them if the shipyards still employed 100,000 people or more but they only employ 3000 plus ,but to have the bare faced cheek to claim they will save the Scottish shipbuilding industry through hand outs from the MOD is the biggest load off conceited pish i have ever heard, considering it was these same jokers that were in power all those years,their legacy is there for everybody to see ,vote yes Scotland and we can try to revive the industries to make them up there with the best in the world once more but you can guarantee with a no vote no attempt to try.

  59. Papadox says:

    Inverclyde 1950

    Gourock Adams boatyard.
    Greenock torpedo factory
    Albert harbour
    Princess pier
    Boom defence depot
    Custom house quay
    Lamont’s dry dock
    Scott’s dry dock and shipyard
    Greenock Dock yard shipbuilding
    James watt dock
    Siberia ship repair yard
    Vandenberg and jurgan
    Port glasgow Lithgows shipbuilding
    Lamont’s dry dock port glasgow
    Ferguson shipyard
    Gourock rope work

    Greenock Hasty’s engineering
    Kin aids engineering
    Drummonds
    Walkers sugar refinery
    West burn sugar refinery
    Rankin and Blackmore
    Joy Sullivan
    What is Greenock left with now.? The Labour Party have been in power during the destruction of a community which once was a powerhouse and vibrant society.

  60. O/T but just to cheer you up.

    Out and about in Cupar and two old dears walked towards me with their “Wally Trolleys” with two massive YES stickers on them.

    Then on the way home I passed two YES canvassers – who are popping in for a wee cuppa and scone in about an hour when they have finished their shift.

    YES is slowly appearing here in NE Fife YAY!!

  61. Chic McGregor says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    On checking your list, I note that it is a list of ship building companies.

    Could, perhaps, a company, have more than one yard?

    At any rate, it seems clear that there are a lot more than two.

  62. BuckieBraes says:

    It’s actually Orwellian, isn’t it?

    I’ve said it before somewhere and I’ll say it again – ‘Better Together’ and its satellites constitute the most dishonest, dishonourable and despicable political campaign the UK has ever known. They ought to be ashamed of themselves; but they don’t care.

    If Scotland ends up falling for ‘Project Fear’, I am starting to doubt whether even the dismal aftermath of a No vote will bring the country to its senses. Of course, by then it’ll be too late anyway.

  63. HandandShrimp says:

    It did strike me that it seemed a tad previous to name the new carrier. It won’t be commissioned until 2017 and not in service until 2020. It is still in dry dock and will be for a while yet.

    What with AFD over Bannockburn Live and various other pronouncements and visits it seems to me that that Westminster really are trying to squeeze every drop of Rule Britannia out every possible event.

  64. Lin says:

    15 big YES posters displayed on windows in Bruntsfield Edinburgh this morning. One No. Cashier in Tescos asked for my Yes badge. Of course I gave him it.
    Great night last night. Lovely meeting you all. Some for the first time. Some for the second. Will pass on your good wishes to Scottish Skier.

  65. Bunter says:

    I have to say, I am rather puzzled why all these Labour voting areas whose shipbuilding, coal, steel and manufacturing industries have been decimated by London rule, their communities left to rot, would vote for more of the same.

    Bizzarre and disappointing that they seem not to have memories and eyes to see.

  66. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Chic McGregor

    Chic, the link below is given as shipyards of Norway (10 of them):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shipyards_of_Norway

    The link below is given as ship building companies of Norway (15 of them):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shipbuilding_companies_of_Norway

  67. heedtracker says:

    @HandandShrimp “I name this partly completed ship after me” Maybe its why they didn’t use champers, superstitious types in the navy but whats coming for their £55 million outbreak of the first world war blast.

  68. Wings Over Reality says:

    A pretty simplistic take on the decline of the manufacturing industry in a globalised economy.The biggest omission is, of course, just how anything would be different under independence.
    The Scottish Government has been touting renewables as the answer for years, promising thousands of jobs that, in places like Dundee, just haven’t arrived and with the recent European Court ruling on subsidies never will under independence.

  69. Chic McGregor says:

    John King, Caz M, Proud Cybernat.

    Was down staying at my daughter’s in Bathgate the weekend before last (Bannockburn Live and Pac Quay protest)

    On Sat “26th July the OO had a huge orange march in Bathgate >30 bands.

    The had a a very large banner strung across the main drag with ‘Scotland says naw to independence’ on it at the bottom.

    I know from my daughter, who is a resident, that her and her friends that they felt the better of going into town that day.

    It was also nothing like the previous annual OO marches they have which are so small many of the residents are not even aware they take place.

    The banner was still there the next day, although it had been removed by Sunday evening.

    Should have thought to take a picture of it. Maybe my daughter did.

  70. Helena Brown says:

    Maybe we need a poster which asks the question, who do you think is shutting the ship yards, which government shut the mines, why is Scotland short of industry. We could also ask the question, why do you think we need to import business when we could start out own.
    I used to live opposite the factory that was built in Dunfermline to house the Hyundai factory which was then bought and never used by Motorola which has subsequently been knocked down, what a waste of money.
    We should be investing in our own industry and not looking for hand outs from anyone. We can certainly do without an industry built on one sort of ship, one which costs money regardless. Seems it is being viewed as an expensive form of welfare.

  71. GraemeMenzies says:

    Personally, If I was present and witnessed an Orange Order march in a public place wearing uniforms and carrying No placards or pro Union regalia, I would find the nearest Constable and report the crime or take photographs as proof and report it at a Police Station where it would certainly be documented for investigation.

    Their ugly bigotry has no place in a forward thinking Scotland.

  72. Proud Cybernat says:

    O/T Apologies

    Just had a chat with a young woman (27 year-old). She is emigrating tomorrow because Scotland has too little to offer her. She was sad to be leaving Scotland but is seeking a life in another country with better opportunities for herself. It saddened me deeply to listen to her but you know what, I do not blame her in the least.

    But folks, THAT is exactly why a YES vote is so vital in the referendum and THAT is an example of exactly how the Union is failing our young people, not just in the present but for decades if not centuries.

    For the sake of ALL our futures, YES must win this thing.

  73. Croompenstein says:

    I see Stuart has summed it up perfectly on twitter..

    Scotland’s psyche is that of a badly-treated zoo animal too scared to leave its cage when the door’s opened

  74. Murray McCallum says:

    Brief little information piece from the Netherland’s embassy on the Norwegian shipbuilding industry.

    http://norway.nlembassy.org/services/trade-information/doing-business-in-norway/sector-report-shipping

    It’s worth noting Norway’s success in this field despite their relatively higher wage-base. This just shows that success in a global industry need not be down to just lowest price.

    Makes me wonder what we could do if we applied our complex shipbuilding expertise to a more diverse range of specialist vessels.

  75. Helena Brown says:

    Nana Smith says:
    I had no idea of the constraints on receiving help from the foodbank, what on earth do people do during the time they cannot get help. absolutely disgusting in this day and age. At one time nobody would be left in this state, somebody in the family would help but given that more and more are affected that probably is just not possible.
    I think it should be remembered that many people on welfare are working as well.

  76. Muscleguy says:

    @heedtracker

    You were supposed to be flattered that they used our national tipple instead. Do you need a session at Britnat re-education camp? I’m sure it can be arranged.

    Along with virtually every comment I have seen online about it. Nobody is taking it as the compliment it was obviously meant as.

    Us bloody thrawn Scots eh? Wha’s like us?

  77. Chic McGregor says:

    @ John King, Caz M, Proud Cybernat.

    Erm, that should, of course have been Sat 28th June (robotically clicked on calendar and forgot to step back a month).

    But I also had a quick Google for piccies and came up with a video of the march in Bathgate.

    They are seen carrying Vote no banners. e.g. 11min 15s in.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxYDR0zZZtI

  78. ronnie anderson says:

    @ John King .If you have a contact num for Thepnr would you give him a bell, in case he’s not seen Patricians post re the Wings signs I have them.

  79. heedtracker says:

    @ musclegguy, Britnat brainwashing like this? It’s funny how the launch of not the QE 3 didn’t actually get launched inito the Forth either. Oh to be a Britnat
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10945858/Champagne-or-whisky-Why-we-smash-bottles-when-launching-ships.html

  80. Bill McLean says:

    o/t Great evening at the Dunfermline Glen Pavilion last night.
    Place packed out with many standing at the back. NIcola was, as ever, brilliant. Lots of questions from “undecideds” – all answered clearly and logically!

  81. GraemeMenzies says:

    @Chic McGregor

    That video clearly shows a paramilitary style march carrying political material.

  82. Maybolebuddie says:

    Whatever the result of the referendum, the biggest loser is truth and democracy, and that is a very serious and dangerous situation. The way forward I don’t know I don’t have the answers, however I am old enough to see and feel the damage that has and is being done. Apologies for the negative message, I seriously hope it has a positive outcome for all our futures, I may be wrong.

  83. Derek M says:

    @ wings over reality so how do you explain Germany or Norway?
    To start with does the Scottish government have the money or power to do these infrastructure programs NO, will they in an independent Scotland YES is that simple enough for you hmmm.

  84. caz-m says:

    John King

    I do hope you all had a great night and that ideas were exchanged of future plans on how to win this Referendum.

    I would loved to have been there and met all you great people, work commitments put the brakes on that.

    Was Ronnie on his best behaviour?

    I will no doubt meet up with a lot of you at PQ3 at the Quay.

  85. John grant says:

    If ever there was a country that could have taken advantage of the early oil industry re shipbuilding it was us ,opportunity missed massively , successive Westminster governments did not give a fuck excuse the language but the drums and flutes of Scotland’s finest are filling the air at the moment I’m ashamed to admit I was taken in by this pish as a younger man but I soon seen sense it’ll go on all night in these parts

  86. magnus barelegs says:

    out of interest how many people work at that yard and rosyth?

  87. Maybolebuddie says:

    Slightly of topic but hot off the press, they have found the Westminster paedophile dossier, it was lying next to the McCrone report!!!!

  88. Robert Peffers says:

    @Big Jock says: 5 July, 2014 at 11:01 am

    Big Jock, within your first paragraph you used two contradictory terms. “The Great British Navy”, and, “The Royal Navy”.

    Let me explain. There is no such thing as, “The British Navy”, as this would require the 8 different countries in Britain to have a single naval force. Four of those countries in Britain are not even United Kingdom countries.

    Now consider what the Term, “Royal Navy”, actually signifies.

    It is the navy of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth who happens to be the monarch of the United Kingdom but who is also the Crown that is legally committed to protecting the three Crown Protectorates and who will remain head of the Royal Realm that will remain, (as per Article I of the Treaty of Union), “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, after the Scots take their independence, (as per Article III of that Treaty of Union), from, “The Parliament”, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    So, being Her Majesty’s Royal Navy and Her Majesty still being head of her Royal Navy it is daft that she would allow HER navy to discriminate against HER navy.

    Or to put that a different way – The United Kingdom is not Britain nor even Great Britain.

  89. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Irene King, git a grip of that man of yours gon about biteing people,is he a Man or a Midgie.

    Once again Irene, You did a worderful job in selling the Raffle tickets,while others enjoy themselves you are busying Yourself with the Raffle, Many Thanks XX.

    Thanks also to Jan Brown for looking after the Wings banner.

  90. heedtracker says:

    Why is there no Royal Army though? I asked Professor Aleisbadass Tomkins earlier but he told me to stop gang bullying her and her best vote no friend, jeezereena too.

    https://id.theguardian.com/profile/abiesalba/public

  91. Jack Murphy says:

    Shipbuilding in an independent Scotland.
    ‘Yes Vote Can Sustain Scottish Shipyards.’
    CONCLUSION:-
    “So Scotland needs to build its own ships for coastal defence, as well as ferries, and a substantial number of both types, never mind the opportunities in other markets such as offshore and cruise shipping. With independence we should be ensuring the capacity is in place for these vessels to be built in Scotland and, given our skills, we should be confident of our ability to succeed in this market.

    This sort of approach would ensure shipyard employment for the foreseeable future. With Westminster’s hands remaining on the economic tiller, however, such orders and opportunities will simply never exist.!
    YES
    http://www.academicsforyes.org/defence-and-commercial-shipping-opportunities-afforded-by-independence/

  92. kininvie says:

    @galamcennalalth

    There’s a 4th type of No voter – and the type that causes me most trouble on the conversion front: those who actually believe in Britain & UK as a functioning entity which saves us from ourselves. These no voters consider that Scotland will be parochial, small minded, badly governed, racked by dissent between left and far left, enslaved to the central belt, full of sectarianism etc.

    Where Yes gives us a vision, they perceive a nightmare. They don’t buy the too poor or too wee arguments, but they go overboard on the too stupid ones. They point (correctly) to decades of local authority misrule & corruption and ask why things should be any different in future. One guy to whom I mentioned an oil fund simply remarked that it would be plundered at the first opportunity by whichever party wanted to offer a bribe to the electorate….

  93. arthur thomson says:

    The people who still work in the ship building industry are not stupid. If they choose to accept this rubbish – given that it is such obvious rubbish – from Scottish Labour then it is because they want to. The same applies to those left working at Rosyth. They have time between now and September to mull over their decision. They have no excuse for being craven and that is what they will be if they vote No.

  94. heedtracker says:

    It’s just that nutty Professor Tomkins from Slovenia says he knows almost everything about why there will be no Scottish nation state, ever ever again.

    http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/author/conlawforum/

  95. Proud Cybernat says:

    If the panda in Edinburgh zoo gives birth this year, there will be more pandas in Scotland than shipyards. Is that another ‘Union Dividend’?

  96. gerry parker says:

    @kininvie.
    The oil fund is a good example of the type of things that should be protected by a written constitution.

  97. Chic McGregor says:

    GraemeMenzies

    Is that illegal?

    Re the big banner.

    My wife has shown me a picture of the big banner across the main street on her phone. It is out of focus or something, can’t really read it, but you can see it goes from lamp post top to lampost top.

    Hard to see how it could have gotten up that high without cherry pickers and they would require at least council permission if not more active cooperation.

    Trying to work out how to transfer it to my PC.

  98. Jim McIntosh says:

    O/T – Flicked over and caught the end of Question Time on Thursday night. DD was saying next week is from Inverness – panel will have no politicians but will be made up of businessmen, musicians and journalists.

    Anyone know who is on?

  99. heedtracker says:

    http://www.kvaerner.com/Products/Jackets-new/

    We don’t have to rely merely on the UKOK war machine, chaotic as it is. Norway is building all Scots oil expro jackets like this one but why are UKOK oil co’s joyfully pumping billions of our money/resources into Norway when it is desperately needed here in Scotland for Scots oil and gas recovery?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23681061

    Norway Deep water expro costing £4.5 billion proceeds say BP, off Shetland, not Norway and there’s dozens more or come, for Norway.

  100. magnus barelegs says:

    funny isn’t it, surely the folk who work at these yards can see that under the union their workforces have been decimated and cut to the bone, yet they are still asked to believe the tory/liebour/fib dum chancers promises that staying in the union will somehow protect their jobs, when history suggests the complete opposite!!! get some self respect and get wise people and vote yes.

  101. Jim Marshall says:

    Jim McIntosh 1.25

    “Anyone know who is on”?

    I don”t know Jim but I would guess 4 unionists and 1 independence supporter.

  102. Chic McGregor says:

    Managed to transfer the crappy picture of the big OO banner in Bathgate. It is just about readable.

    Could that have got up there without a cherry picker or council involvement of some kind?

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/b562r7ufyug8pqb/OO_Banner_Bathgate.jpg

  103. Chic McGregor says:

    PS don’t know if it is actually an OO banner, but it was up for the OO parade.

  104. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says:
    5 July, 2014 at 12:45 pm@ musclegguy, Britnat brainwashing like this? It’s funny how the launch of not the QE 3 didn’t actually get launched inito the Forth either. Oh to be a Britnat

    Err! Heedtracker, ye canna launch a ship frae a drydock.
    Ye need tae hae a slipway ye ken. Even when they do flood the dock and float the ship at Rosyth it will exit the dock into the non-tidal basin. This then has a lock to give access to the tidal Forth.

  105. YESGUY says:

    I would think the shipbuilders skills would be handy when setting up the oil industry in West , once we’ve chucked the Nukes out. Platforms and all sorts of equipment along with boats and ships for supplies etc. The shipbuilders have the skills to transform the West coast. Relying on bits and pieces from the uk govt will only kill them off in the long term . or do they plan another war ?

    We have examples of success in Norway and if the shipbuilders could only see how the other half works , they may not be too keen on a NO vote. They can’t really believe all the crap from Westminster . No one does.

    As for the OO , Every time they go out on the streets we get more YES votes. Celebrating an foreign army winning over the Irish seems a wee bit daft. It’s SO OLD NEWS and people are different now. The internet has opened the world and those dinosaurs only show us in poor light.

    there was a wee laddie twirling the baton on one of the bands , looked about 10/10 is this typical? bringing kids up on a diet of bigotry and sectarianism ? Sometimes i despair.

    I have never been more sure of my vote than now. This country(uk) is always forcing us to look back. Never forward unless it suits them. Keep telling folk . Nag the buggers to death if you have to. Tell them to look to the future , not backwards. This is the 21st century.

    The OO and their like get right up my goat. They bring shame on us. How many RC or other religions all over the world see that and see Scotland? It makes my blood boil.

  106. Proud Cybernat says:

    For the shipbuilders out there. Think of how the Clyde COULD be and how your skills could help bring about this transformation:

    http://www.scottcreighton.co.uk/indyref/images/death-or-gold.jpg

  107. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 5 July, 2014 at 1:12 pm

    “Why is there no Royal Army though?”

    Oh! But there is. “The Royal Signal Corp”, for example.
    Also certain Regiments had titles like, “The Queens Own Scottish Borderers”. However, the generic title is, “The Soldiers of the Queen/King”.

  108. Liquid Lenny says:

    O/T hope y’all had a guid night in Edinburgh last night.
    Just received my WOS Large Metal sign. Its Brilliant, thanks again to Hood, quick question, does the metal need painting? oe might mount it to a piece of Alloy painted Saltire Blue and paint the WOS Sign White.

  109. Jamie Arriere says:

    Still hilarious that Davidson needs to add “not threatening them” to his flyer, considering he openly stated last year the possibility of inserting clauses into contracts removing work from his constituency in the event of a Yes vote

    “The anxiety is that the result of the referendum is not known. But I say do not delay, insert a break contract and the work could be re-allocated if the UK does not want it to continue with a separate Scotland. A break clause will allow the work and planning to go ahead on the Clyde for Type 26 vessels.”

    https://archive.today/9shQW

  110. ian foulds says:

    Bluebell says ‘YES Scotland seem to be preaching to the converted and focussing on wordy online articles quoting stats, graphs and figures. We need some short, snappy rebuttals; everything seems so dull and ‘nice’, including some of the people delivering the message. I’m afraid I can’t be bothered reading their lengthy posts on Facebook most of the time. I know they are up against it with MSM and the local campaigns are great, but there must be a lot of people the messages aren’t reaching. Time for gloves off, PR-wise?’

    Sounds like YES needs a kick up the proverbial!!

    This is not funny.

    WE NEED TO SPELL IT OUT TO PEOPLE 24/7 – NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  111. Democracy Reborn says:

    @Wings over Reality

    “…the decline of the manufacturing industry in a globalised economy”?

    Utterly vacuous. Are we therefore to simply accept the ‘light touch’ regulation, neo-liberal casino capitalism of successive Westminster governments?

    Angela Merkel to Blair, when asked what was the secret of her country’s economic success : “Mr Blair, we still MAKE things.”

  112. Robert Peffers says:

    @Democracy Reborn says: 5 July, 2014 at 2:17 pm

    “Angela Merkel to Blair, when asked what was the secret of her country’s economic success : “Mr Blair, we still MAKE things.”

    Aye! but the laughable part is that post WWII it was Britain that not only saved such as VW but also restarted, refurbished and put German Industry back on its feet.

    I kid you not : –

    http://www.superbeetles.com/hirst.htm

  113. Proud Cybernat says:

    O/T – Apologies

    Well–they’ve had their big day out. Now steaming out their boxes and spewing their Unionist sectarian bile the length and breadth of Buchanan St. and down their Rangers shirts too. Oh look–there’s two of them fighting with each other in Nelson Mandella Place. And what’s that I hear in the background? Ah–the sirens of the police wagons. Thud!! Oh dear–they’re chucking traffic cones at each other now. Tis a sight to behold indeed. The wonder must be that any of them will ever make it to a polling booth.

  114. Liquid Lenny says:

    ian foulds

    Have faith, the YES campaign knows what they are doing, when the time is right they will say the things that need saying.

  115. Jim McIntosh says:

    @ian fowlds – “Sounds like YES needs a kick up the proverbial!!”

    I agree Ian – I’m getting a little concerned how laid back the official YES campaign seems. With only 10 and a bit weeks to go I think they need to ramp it up more than a bit.

    No good waking up on Semptember 19th saying “oh well we lost but at least we didn’t stoop to their level.”

  116. Robert Peffers says:

    It has to be said, though,(or rather paraphrased).

    “Inside every wee soft NO voter there’s a confirmed Big YES voter trying to get out”.

  117. Taranaich says:

    @kininvie: They point (correctly) to decades of local authority misrule & corruption and ask why things should be any different in future.

    Because they will be more accountable in an independent Scotland. Things are only going to get *worse* as Westminster empowers the councils to the point where they could eventually just bypass Holyrood entirely.

    @Chic McGregor: Managed to transfer the crappy picture of the big OO banner in Bathgate. It is just about readable.

    Could that have got up there without a cherry picker or council involvement of some kind?

    Jings, you couldn’t have managed a bleaker shot. Is it from a horror movie or a Soviet-era Russian melodrama?

  118. Tom Platt says:

    As the following and other articles on Wealthy Nation discuss, the financial case is claimed to be quite complex by Westminster but clearly favours Indy for Scots.

    Fear or Optimism
    http://www.wealthynation.org/fear-or-optimism/
    As Chomsky says, it all boils down to fear or optimism.

    I live my 71 year old life so as to always try to allow my optimism to overcome any irrational fears. I have always encouraged wife, children, grand-children and students to do the same. That is one reason why I will be voting “Yes”.

    If people are prone to Fear though, let us keep reminding them of the Fear that they need to have of voting “No”. Even Westminster are not promising that the financial situation will improve anytime soon. The Barnet Formula disappearance will hit Scots particularly badly.

    Tom

  119. Andrew says:

    Slightly off topic.

    The Yes shop in Stirling is crowdfunding for four advert trailers to cover the Stirling constituency. These will be vital in helping secure a Yes vote in the referendum on 18th September.

    We would appreciate the help of the readers of this site as you have been generous in the past in helping other similar causes.

    Our crowd funding page is at:

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-ad-trailer-campaign

    Please visit and donate what you can afford. If you are unable to donate then please help by sharing this link on Facebook and Twitter.

    Thank you for your support.

  120. Chic McGregor says:

    “Jings, you couldn’t have managed a bleaker shot. Is it from a horror movie or a Soviet-era Russian melodrama?”

    Ha ha! My wife keeps her phone in her handbag. She tells me she subsequently discovered something on the lens which she thinks was a piece of banana. Frankly, it could have been almost anything.

  121. Flooplepoop says:

    It would be interesting to see what the employment numbers in Norway’s shipyards in 1979 and what they are now.

  122. Andy-B says:

    They’re trying to frighten people into voting no, the poor souls don’t even know that if a no vote is returned, and either the Tories or Labour win the 2015 General Election, that £25 billion quids worth of cuts are going to fall on them. With another £25 billion further down the pipeline.

    How do we know this, Ed Balls Labour has already publicly stated the cuts, a no vote will create far more suffering,than we’ve seen now, and Labour don’t care.

  123. Chic McGregor says:

    OK I pulled it into photoshop and tweaked the levels as best I could to bring out the text. Here it is.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8au79ks5attb9q/OO_Banner_Bathgate_contrast_adjusted.jpg

    District 26 (I looked it up) is Bathgate and Armadale, so I guess it is an Urange Ludge banner after all.

  124. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I used to work in a distillery on the edges of Airdrie.

    That was tribal.

    The way out of Airdrie, it was the very old Edinburgh Road, was rabid orange and comandeered the street lights to string the bunting and banners. That involved a motorised hoist being used. They didn’t paint the kerbstones but….

    Caldercruix was another red hot orange pocket so between them lay Plains which was painted green and the pub, right on the main street had no windows.

    Mediaeval and tribal but, in the distillery absolutely no problems.

  125. Macsenex says:

    Helensburgh’s population is 2000 less than it was ten years ago. House prices are twenty per cent less than Bearsden and we have a base where 2500service people live down south and use the accommodation blocks during the week. They contribute nothing to our communities.Ask aUnionist what’s wrong and they never give an answer. The answer is quite simple, no one wants to come and live or bring up their kids in the midst of weapons of mass destruction.

  126. andy Drynan says:

    My bro works for a local engineering firm, and was pulled into a meeting 2 weeks ago, owners are telling them they’re backing NO, they’ve also had a visit from Darling. Leaving flyers around the factory of owners voting intentions. F******* scandalous. Has loads of guy’s worried for their jobs.

  127. Wings Over Reality says:

    @derekm The question is really how much extra do you want on your leccy bill you pay for renewables in an independent Scotland? Or do you really think voters in the rUK will be happy to pay to prop up Scottish projects. Unlikely to be much of a vote winner. Turkeys for Chritstmas indeed!

  128. Croompenstein says:

    Or do you really think voters in the rUK will be happy to pay to prop up Scottish projects

    Have a wee check at this Wings Over Reality…

    http://tinyurl.com/lwm6xgh

  129. Molly says:

    Wings over reality
    When the difference between what people in Scotland pay and the subsidised 7p some of England pays ( Union divi again) to the National grid, then our leccy bills will come down

  130. Molly says:

    Sorry that should have read , when the difference between subsidised parts of England compared to say the islands ( even with a reduction) is equal then our leccy bills will reduce

  131. Laurie says:

    @caz-m 11.41am
    Jim Murphy was not attending Orange Walk but on his soapbox in Portobello at noon. I asked him to justify spending 120 billion pounds, following a NO vote, on replacing Trident nuclear missiles while 900000 people in Scotland, including a quarter of a million children,are living in poverty.

    Still waiting for my answer.

  132. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    And here’s a quote from Croompenstein’s link…

    FIVE leading academic experts today claimed that an analysis of the impact of recent UK government policy decisions on nuclear energy suggested that Scottish consumers could face lower prices in an independent Scotland.

    The experts from Aberdeen, Birmingham, Robert Gordon’s and Cardiff universities and Queen’s University Belfast have been studying the effect of new policy developments at Westminster on the Scottish renewables industry, and their effect on electricity consumers in Scotland as part of the UK or an independent Scotland.

    The research project, Delivering Renewable Energy Under Devolution, is being funded by the UK’s Economic and Social Research Council and led by Dr David Toke, a Reader in Energy Politics at Aberdeen University.

    So, yooz of the NO persuasion, explain where those experts are wrong.

  133. David G. says:

    @chichmcgregor

    ” Chic McGregor says:
    5 July, 2014 at 11:16 am

    “@Scotrenewables

    “Utterly off topic – sorry – but I just had an idea I wanted to share.

    Now the balloon is not going to get off the ground how about bespoke YES kites?

    Peter Powell stunt kites can be made with your own logo – see HERE – and I am sure there are other types of kite that could be customised. It could be a cheap and effective way of getting YES into the skies.”

    Sounds like a good idea to me 😉 (suggested it a while back with maybe Wings kite days on Glasgow Green, The meadows,The inch, Camperdown park, Bucht park etc.)”

    That’ll probably be illegal if Glasgow City Council have their way.

    See http://athousandflowers.net/2014/01/24/glasgow-city-council-to-turn-walk-in-the-park-into-legal-minefield

    Sign the petition at
    http://www.change.org/petitions/glasgow-city-council-drop-the-proposed-glasgow-park-management-rules-relating-to-unauthorised-gatherings-parking-and-animals

    15018 signatures so far.

  134. David G. says:

    My apologies, Chic … I really should check the spelling before posting.

  135. Tom Foyle says:

    I’m beating the drum a bit here, (yet again!) but that rubbish about shipbuilding on Clydeside really annoys me, mostly because it’s a complete LIE!! British Aerospace has every intention of building the 12-14 type 26 ships in Glasgow REGARDLESS of the Independence outcome. To state otherwise is not only misleading, but morally indefensible. In fact, and I believe this is the important message that should be out there in HUGE CAPITALS, their exact quote was, “There is no plan B.” Or should I say, “THERE IS NO PLAN B”. From “Global Defence Technology” online magazine, june edition, I think – but their archives are so easily accessible, and what you find therein may surprise many of you.



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