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Victims of the bedroom tax

Posted on December 19, 2013 by

The under-occupancy penalty more commonly known as the bedroom tax is a policy whose roots lie in London. Rents in the UK capital are so extortionate that keeping a roof over the heads of the unemployed, low-paid, disabled and vulnerable has become a dreadful burden on the taxes of City bankers, in the few cases where they pay any.

derwent

Readers might be forgiven for imagining, then, that the savage benefit reductions would be punishing Londoners harder than people in other regions of the UK. We’ve just been crunching the numbers, and you might be a little surprised at who it turns out are actually bearing the brunt more than most.

We took the detailed government stats revealed by Inside Housing last month, and referenced them against the listed populations of the UK’s “NUTS” regions used in the figures (for some reason N. Ireland was excluded). We then factored in the average UK household size to get a ballpark estimate for the number of people affected.

These were the resulting rankings, with the areas MOST affected at the top.

1. North-East England1 person in 29
2. Scotland: 1 in 30
3. North-West England: 1 in 37
4. Wales: 1 in 40
5. Yorkshire and the Humber: 1 in 45
6. West Midlands: 1 in 47
7. East Midlands: 1 in 55
8. Greater London: 1 in 65
9. East of England: 1 in 75
10: South-West England: 1 in 84
11: South-East England: 1 in 101

Now there’s an odd thing. Proportionately, the regions being hit the hardest are those furthest from London. More money is being clawed back from Scotland, Wales and North-East and North-West England than from the capital, and the further south you go the lesser the effects. Which is weird, because it’s almost exactly the opposite pattern to the level of rents.

We’re not exactly sure why this should be the case. It may be partly that because rents in London ARE so high, people are crammed into house-shares and so fewer of them had “spare” rooms to start with. But we suspect it might also not be entirely unrelated to a disturbing graph published this month by the Guardian:

wagemap1

The majority of the poor are now people in work, not the unemployed. And a vastly disproportionate share of all UK wages are now paid in and around London. Which suggests that Londoners are better able to afford even their sky-high rents, and as a result get proportionately less housing benefit.

The net effect of the bedroom tax, then, is to suck even more money away from the “edges” of the country and into the London coffers of the Treasury, where in turn it gets disproportionately invested straight back into London, generating more wages and completing the circle.

infra

Vince Cable today described London as “a giant suction machine draining the life out of the rest of the country”. That wasn’t exactly a new revelation. But we suspect few people realised that one of the engines driving that machine was the “spare room subsidy” being snatched from the poorest in Wales, the north of England and, as ever, the willing cash cow that is Scotland.

(Scottish Labour, alert readers won’t need reminding, want to accelerate this process even more by taking extra money out of the Holyrood budget to fill the bedroom-tax hole, encouraging the Tories to squeeze the poor still tighter.)

canyouafford

Cynical, inexcusably paranoid viewers could perhaps be forgiven for imagining that Westminster was frantically trying to extract every last penny it could from the Scots, via every conceivable route, while it still had the chance.

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132 to “Victims of the bedroom tax”

  1. MajorBloodnok
    Ignored
    says:

    “Can you really afford Sky, cigarettes, bingo, drinks, food, heating, shoes for your children, elderly relatives, humanity and other non essentials?”
     
    Just a few things they missed off that list.

  2. blunttrauma
    Ignored
    says:

    I heard someone call housing benefit “the landlord subsidy”.

  3. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    Superb piece of work.
    Is this what journalism looks like?

  4. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Why Don’t You Do Everyone a Favour and Just Die? We Can Help You.”

  5. mogabee
    Ignored
    says:

    Major
    I do hope you said that with a condescending sneer?….Got to be totally accurate. 

  6. Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Worse than that.
    These very prosperous people in London need accommodation for their pampered weans as well as accommodation for the people that look after their interests, such as as nurses, teachers, refuse collectors, restuarant staff and all manner of skivvy. What better way to provide that accommodation than drive out the work shy and scivers and replace them with good-living servants. 

  7. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ian Brotherhood
     
    Don’t tempt them. 😉

  8. steven luby
    Ignored
    says:

    What I find odder still is the cost per head per MP to house yet,they claw back monies from those who actually need it. Now im not saying that the system is great,and here comes the but……….’But’,common simple dignity,self respect demands that those who have a salary etc to cover their living costs;based on the low wage and benifit level should simply pay more to society. But here is the clanger,those that demand to pay less-the wealthy- to society require a poor population,wage structure,poor housing etc so that gives the unemployed,low pay workforce something to aim for……..poor and happy springs to mind! But when your level of poverty requires you to breaking the law to feed a child while you starve,the Thatcher Years echo once again.Screw thy neighbour, I will be alright because I have a brand new pair of fishermans boots and I will use them. The bedroom tax is nothing but a sick,cynical ploy in turning society against itself while other disgusting policies are created and put into practice. Sorry…….rant over!

  9. MajorBloodnok
    Ignored
    says:

    @mogabee
     
    Indeed, also uttered with one raised eyebrow, whilst twirling my moustache and appraising my impoverished tenant’s daughter’s balustrade in lieu of rent.

  10. Dave
    Ignored
    says:

    This reminds me of the time I tried to explain to my Londoner relative that her family’s London allowances were actually a subsidy paid for by the rest of the population. She apparently just couldn’t grasp such a simple idea.

  11. Robert Kerr
    Ignored
    says:

    Major Bloodnok
     
    I didn’t realise Droit du seigneur was available to majors. 
     
    Oh well amazing what one learns in WoS

  12. MajorBloodnok
    Ignored
    says:

    @Robert Kerr
     
    It isn’t, but they don’t know that.

  13. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    Dear old Dunc Bothersall has been bleating that it’s all terrible lies (I know not why), so just for him – because I know he reads us faithfully – here’s the table of absolute cash losses by area, rather than per capita:

    (7m) NW Eng: £1.16m per week

    (8.2m) London: £1.12m

    (5.3m) Scotland: £0.87m

    (5.6m) W Mid: £0.76m

    (5.3m) York/Hum: £0.66m

    (8.6m) SE: £0.64m

    (5.8m) East: £0.54m

    (2.6m) NE Eng: £0.5m

    (4.5m) E Mid: £0.47m

    (3.1m) Wales: £0.44m

    (5.3m) SW: £0.41m

    The figures in brackets are each area’s population. Scotland, as you can see, loses twice as much as South-West England despite having the same population, and around a third more than the South-East despite having 3.3m fewer people.

  14. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Biblical Text, How to make a CRIMSON ARROW, modern day  version  SHOOT IT THROUGH THE HEART OF  IAN  DUNCAN  SMITH.

  15. Cindie aka CR
    Ignored
    says:

    @ronnie anderson
    ‘SHOOT IT THROUGH THE HEART OF  IAN  DUNCAN  SMITH’
     
    I didn’t know he had a heart, Ronnie? 😉

  16. MajorBloodnok
    Ignored
    says:

    @ronnie
     
    There’s a basic flaw with that: IDS hasn’t got one.

    Aha! Cindie beat me to it!

  17. Dcanmore
    Ignored
    says:

    Hammersmith and Fulham Council have issued a Christmas card to its tenants with the message “Don’t over indulge this Christmas… PAY YOUR RENT!”
     
    http://www.hammersmithtoday.co.uk/shared/hfcouncil049.htm
     
    It’s because 46% of council properties in H&F are in rent arrears. A problem that’s getting worse as people can’t make ends meet anymore.

  18. JLT
    Ignored
    says:

    There are days where I just get sick to the back teeth of the media, and all the crap that they drag up and then tell us that these are ‘facts’, which are then endorsed by the ‘No’ camp, the UK Government, and god knows who else.
     
    I really hope the Scottish media burn in hell if it is a Yes vote. I hope that papers like the Scotsman and the Record cease to exist due to continuing poor circulation. They deserve to suffer. Lie upon lie against their own people. God knows how the people who work there and back the drivel they write, sleep at night.  
     
    I mean …my dad is a die hard unionist, and so, he is voting No (I’ve tried and tried, but he is bloody adamant!). Anyway, he shocked me yesterday by going off on one, by saying that he is furious with the BBC because they won’t tell the truth about either campaign!

    Even my hard Unionist Father is demanding answers from the No camp. He hates London, but believes in a UK that should be equal right across the land (it’s a nice dream …but it is only wishful thinking as we all know fine well). He is bitterly unhappy about what London is doing to the rest of the UK. I bet there must be other Unionists who also feel this way. Like him, they will vote No, but I bet they will be angry doing it!
     
    Nice couple of reports about the Yes and DK percentages being up, while No tumbles down something like 5 points. That cheered me up!
     
    Anyway …back to the studying again…the history degree calls!

  19. chalks
    Ignored
    says:

    @JLT
     
    These people will change their mind, rest assured.  Your father may not, but he might just decide to not vote when the times comes….perhaps ask him why he wants to continue to back a broken system?
     
    Enoughs enough

  20. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    Ah yes the bedroom tax, in the second week in November the Labour Party in Westminster put forward a motion to “Abolish” the bedroom tax, it failed by 26 votes.
     
    If memory serves me one quarter of Labour MP’s didn’t support the motion including Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy and our old favourite, Anas Sarwar, Labour in power at Westminster will change nothing.
     
    As for Vince Cable, he recently refused to take action on the “Zero Hours Contract” fiasco sweeping the UK, why? well he doesn’t want  the unemployed figures to dramtically rise,  by including these people in the figures.
     
    Especially when Gideon Osborne has shown (fraudently mind you) that the recession is over and its all boom boom boom, at least if your rich that is.

  21. bannock hussler
    Ignored
    says:

    @ JLT’s dad
    The best way to get the nearest thing to equality “across the land” is to vote Yes.

  22. faolie
    Ignored
    says:

    Can you really afford Sky, cigarettes, bingo, drinks and other non essentials?
     
    You might think that they make your rubbish life bearable, but they’re not much use when you’re evicted and living on the streets, eh?
     
    Makes me want to puke.

  23. Marcia
    Ignored
    says:

    It would be good if the BBC would broadcast this but I fear it would be misrepresented as they have form:
     
    Trust finds BBC Scotland guilty of breaching editorial guidelines over EU indy broadcast – More later Newsnet Scotland

  24. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “Hammersmith and Fulham Council have issued a Christmas card to its tenants with the message “Don’t over indulge this Christmas… PAY YOUR RENT!””

    Linked in paragraph 2. DOESN’T ANYONE CLICK THE ETC ETC ETC?

  25. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Unemployment is 4% in London S/E. So less folk will be on ‘benefits’. There are no public spending cuts in London S/E. London S/E is being protected from austerity. ‘Unemployment in the North is a price worth paying for jobs and prosperity in the South’ -Tory policy. They have misappropriated the Oil revenues for the last forty years.

    There was no problem with housing benefit in Scotland. It increased at less than inflation over the last decade. The ‘room tax’ is a disgrace. 80% of those affected are disabled. Council authorities in Scotland did move people to the most appropriate accomodation, where available.

  26. Dcanmore
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rev
     
    Yeah, but my link goes to the source 😉

  27. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Housing Benefit UK cut £400,000 million. Westminster fund to alleviate hardship in rest of the UK £25 million

    Scotland’s cut £40million? Scottish gov fund to alleviate hardship £20million.

  28. Andrew Morton
    Ignored
    says:

    News net tweeting that BBC Trust have found against BBC Scotland.

  29. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Housing Benefit Cap (£500 max rent) might affect London tenants more because of high rents in London. Ie not the local authority housing ‘bedroom tax’. The ‘bedroom tax’ is extremely unfair because most social housing has been paid for twice over – more for older properties.

    Housing benefit in the UK is £40Billion, disproportionately higher in London. Rents in London are higher than the rest of the UK.

  30. Creag an Tuirc
    Ignored
    says:

    OT: Just a follow up to Andrew Morton’s post above. Newsnet tweeted the following “Trust finds BBC Scotland guilty of breaching editorial guidelines over EU indy broadcast – More later ” I wonder if the MSM will cover this when Newsnet breaks it. Answer: Will they fuck!

  31. Training Day
    Ignored
    says:

    @JLT

    Your father doesn’t want to admit he’s been wrong. A very common phenomenon which we’ve all encountered.

  32. Dorothy Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    OT but I am seething after watching STV news and pillock of a Liberal lord with the latest idiotic scare about how an independent Scotland couldn’t afford to give substantial aid to other needy nations.

     When 1 in 4 bairns live in poverty here and having spent a lump of today buying food to take to a south side charity ,having donated to a foodbank nearer home I have to say ” charity begins at home” and I don’t want to give money to the Indian sub continent especially when they say they don’t want it.

    I would ,of course donate to a major tragedy like earthquakes , tsunamis and floods but I am less than bothered when it comes to giving other nuclear powered nations a penny.

    Let’s sort Scotland first  and once we have taken care of our own ,young ,old , vulnerable and poor then we can spread our wings.

  33. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    Agreed,Dorothy Devine.
    Unionists think they can shame Scots into voting No.
    They tried to do the same when Megrahi was released.
    They will try again all next year when unionists and MSM will imply [not very subtly] a vote for Yes is an insult to all the fallen heroes of WWI.

  34. gerry parker
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dan.
    The biggest insult to the fallen in WW1 is the monarchy.

  35. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    What a depressingly great article. I find the per head / most affected statistics simply shocking. There seems to be a total lack of basic humanity in UK political thinking.
     
    I remember watching the UN housing inspector Raquel Rolnik getting passionate when debating the bedroom tax with Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi. He’s the guy who had UK taxpayers paying the heating bill for his horses.
     
    I’d love to know what Labour MP was ‘paired’ with Nadhim Zahawi in the recent Westminster failure to abolish the Bedroom Tax.

  36. David Boddie
    Ignored
    says:

    I initially read the headline as “Victims of the boardroom tax” – now there’s an idea…

  37. JLT
    Ignored
    says:

    Nah Training Day.
    He’s just one of those from a generation that believed Britain was just that …Britain. He sees and believes everyone in the UK should be equal, and that what is shared, is shared out equally. It’s probably what most folk believe should have happened, but of course, that was never going to happen; not with London as the main city.
     
    His anger at it all, is that he doesn’t want to give up on the union, but at the same time, he’s highly frustrated with the nastiness and inequality from his own camp. He is probably highly alarmed at the real possibility that, what his idea of Britain is (or what it could be…), is crumbling right before his eyes, and there seems to be no way to repair it.
     
    I don’t blame him in any way. I can see that it upsets him. He is a Scot, but sees himself as British also, and what I mean by that, is that he sees both equally. You and I don’t see that. As each day goes by, a little bit of that Britishness that remains in me, dies a little each day, and the reason for that, is the sheer inequality of what we see. To see the likes of Ian Duncan Smith smirking at poverty, knowing full well, that he could have blood on his hands, makes us all realise that we are not one and the same, and we are not Better Together, which funnily enough …my father said yesterday too! He said there is no danger that we are all Better Together with what is going on within this country. As I say …he’s an angry, angry man with his side at the moment! If Cameron, Osborne and IDS keep this up, they may just yet …push my father into the Yes camp (and Oh God …here’s hoping!!!!).

  38. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    Watch Happy lands on bbc2 iplayer aired on 15/12/13 @ 21.00
    then you KNOW what we’re fighting for, 
    my ain, my kinfolk

  39. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    @JLT
    Vote by post yourself, and take your dad out for a drive that day. Car breakdowns can happen at any time. 🙂

  40. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    Here’s a Britishness test to put to No sayers queasy about the assault on benefits.

    Do you think that things would improve if Parliament and Government were moved to, say, Wakefield?

    If so, why not go the whole hog and move it to Edinburgh and if not, why not cut adrift and leave them to stew in their own juices ( and dont expect us to fork out £4bn to remove said juices)?
     
    Why Wakefield; it has an excellent clock tower to take over from Big Ben and the Queen Elizabeth Tower as we must learn to call it and it is centered on the Rhubarb Triangle. And the clock tower; that of the old Stanley Royd lunatic asylum 🙂

  41. cynicalHighlander
    Ignored
    says:

    I hear that the UK gov has refused EU aid to be distributed to foodbanks in the UK, what a disgusting state of affairs.
     
    OT: Latest referendum odds.
     
    http://archive.is/Fg0HO

  42. JLT
    Ignored
    says:

    Juteman
    …your a naughty man! A good idea …but I think I would be cut out from the inheritance if I did do that …and probably barred from next years Christmas dinner …and my mum makes a grand Christmas dinner! I would be making a Faustian Pact if I did that!

    As I said …lets see if Cam, Gideon and IDS can pee him off first! At the end of the day, in his disgust …he just might not vote!!

  43. Seasick Dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Can you really afford Sky, cigarettes, bingo, drinks and other non essentials?
     
    What they really mean is,”Can you really afford nuclear weapons, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, aid to countries with space and nuclear programmes, Westminster and High Speed rail links that don’t even come to Scotland?”

  44. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    Don’t recall if I’ve posted this before, but…
     
    Now 4/6 homes Yes in my hamlet in the borders (not sure about the other 2 as fairly new to the area / don’t know them that well). Only one has actually discussed the topic with me (very Yes). I’ve never hidden my intentions of course; have my wee Yes badge and a saltire went up for the jubylmpics and will keep flying to next September at least. Never pushed it though.
     
    Anyway,  one neighbour all of a sudden started liking pro-indy posts on Mrs SS’s facebook. Then Yes stickers appeared just recently on another neighbour’s cars. 
     
    Best was when I went to get the Christmas tree the other weekend. Parents of the recent yes car sticker neighbour help manage the community woodland. Popped in to say hi and pay for the tree. Had a good chat about this and that before saying goodbye and getting the car. Just about to pull away and my neighbours mum hurries out and stops me.
     
    She says (knowing I’m a Yes probably from our neighbour) ‘Oh, and we’ve got our saltire and lion rampant up now on flagpoles Jim put up (it was dark so I’d not see them). We’ve got lots of yes stickers and leaflets and are passing them to everyone we can. It’ll only get worse otherwise; here’s hoping.’.
     
    The silent / quiet yes is rising.
     
    Made putting up the tree all the more special.

  45. GrumpoMcchief
    Ignored
    says:

    If you want to see an example of history repeating itself watch “Happy Lands” on BBC1 iPlayer .miners strike 1926 in Fife attacked by you guessed it the Liberal/Conservative govt. Do we never learn ???

  46. scaredy cat.
    Ignored
    says:

    Stu.
    Don’t be offended that people don’t appear to click on the links. It is a sign that they trust you. I used to cross check everything you wrote in the beginning. Now not so much, especially if I’m pushed for time. Most people who post have been around for a while. New visitors will be checking everything out and it’s reassurance for the rest of us.
    It’s hard to find the time to read all of it, unfortunately.

  47. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    Re  referendum odds, I never back short odds,unless the name Kauto Star or Frankel is listed.Sure way to lose.My bet would be on a yes win.

  48. James D
    Ignored
    says:

    @gerry parker
    The greatest insult to the fallen of WW1 is the centenary celebration of its “start” for cheap political timely gain!

  49. The Man in the Jar
    Ignored
    says:

    @John King
    I watched “Happy Lands” absolutely brilliant! As far as inequality is concerned it seems like little has changed.
     
    I hope that some true Labour voters watched it and thought “Where did it all go wrong?”

  50. Titler
    Ignored
    says:

    London is also cushioned by the fact that even if you are moved via the Bedroom Tax, there’s the infrastructure, especially the Transport for London network (Underground, Rail, Buses) covering such a large area that it will soften the disruption to your life, where the impoverishing of the North acts as a multiplier to the suffering.

    Not that any one getting violated over their bedrooms even in London have it easy of course… but politicians simply don’t understand what it’s like to live with even the transport systems of Britain’s secondary cities; Even here in Bristol, if you want to move centrally into the city you can, but moving across the city is a multi-hour journey. Your hospital is in North Bristol but you live in East Bristol? Take a bus to the Centre and then back out again, because it’s only structured around rush hour traffic and not social needs.

    To add to Stu’s comments about over-occupancy, the Buy To Let landlords also subdivide properties as much as possible to convert them into Studio Flats, because of the insane rental prices you can charge per “flat”, especially when so many people are coming to an area to start a career or earn a fortune and might not need quite as much physical room per household. Back on the WoS days, we had a bit of a debate about this too, with Bath being massively over leveraged compared to Bristol just down the road. But this isn’t going to change by just booting everyone on benefits out of Bath and into Bristol… because the market isn’t being set by the working class’s income in either Bath or Bristol. It’s being driven by the lack of rent caps and the fact that the rich in Bath are still going to demand the same services, and same financial return on their own services that they’ve always had… so the State was picking up the difference in benefit payments to keep the low paid service workers within reach of the people offering employment on their own selfish terms.

    It’s just in London the investment to in infrastructure is already spent, so it’s in theory a pure saving in downgrading someone’s accommodation. Everywhere else it’ll prove a financial disaster because they won’t be able to get to the jobs they once had or hoped to find… And if somehow people did find a way to get from Bristol to Bath… the landlords in Bristol would just ratchet up the rent there too and the State would be back to square one again, except now with more infrastructure on the bill.

  51. JLT
    Ignored
    says:

    John King.
    Is it your birthday today, mate! Happy Birthday if it is. Cheers again!

  52. Andrew Morton
    Ignored
    says:

    Re the BBC Trust ruling, it’s the tiniest of slaps over the wrist, the least they could get away with. Plus they let BBC Scotland off with hushing up the Irish Foreign Minister’s protests. I bet BBC Scotland hush up the ruling aided by the rest of the MSM. Ruth Davidson will go on spinning the original ‘story’.

  53. Bill C
    Ignored
    says:

    Scottish_Skier Nice wee story and very typical of quite a number of experiences/conversations I have had since about September. Seems to be a tangible mood swing to YES going on.

  54. Robert Kerr
    Ignored
    says:

    Totally O/T Rev, sorry but I found this interesting.
    BAE lost it’s sale of typhoons to Emirates. In Telegraph. The Francophobic bile in the comments is worse than we get even. That lead me on to a new site for me and an interesting take on iScotland defence.
    http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/12/scotland-asking-right-fighter/
    Comments are reasonable, especially the one by “El Sid”

  55. SteveW
    Ignored
    says:

    Was listening to this old Don McLean song the other day.
    With a few changes to the lyrics it could be about the way Britain is heading.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pyFEXgpp2VY

  56. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “Don’t be offended that people don’t appear to click on the links. It is a sign that they trust you.”

    Aw. That’s cheered me up 🙂

  57. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    @JLT
    I remember the discussions I had with my old man in the run up to the 1979 referendum. Totally opposed he was though I was a supporter. He told me we’re British and funny enough better together. I ended up voting No.
     
    He’s passed away now and the funniest thing of all for me is that at heart he was a “communist” though I would argue more socialist. His view and opinion came from his time in National Service in Malaya, bonds are formed and no matter where you came from, you were all British and in it together.
     
    I do believe though that had he still be around now would be as angry as your Dad.
     
    Anyone with half a brain can see clearly it is Cessminster policies that are tearing the Union apart. Lets face it we wouldn’t be where we are now if the UK government was seen to be fair and equal across the whole of society.
     
    Hey, just like the Scandinavians seem to achieve and that we Yes supporters aspire too.

  58. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    For those who haven’t yet seen Bateman’s latest.
     
    Powerful stuff, and interesting comments from some well-kent WoSsers…oooh, and Grahamski! 
     
    http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/the-real-britain/ …

  59. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    For non-Twitterers:
     
    It seems that Harriet Harman booted Dougie Alexander’s baws on Monday in front of approx thirty comrades (after which he said, several octaves higher than normal, ‘They were better together‘), and George Foulkes has tonight called Henry McLeish a ‘Fifth columnist’.
     
    Oo-er! Someone’s doing too many office parties…

  60. Boorach
    Ignored
    says:

    The greatest insult to the fallen of WW1 and every other conflict this country has ever been involved in is what is being done by those in power in Westminster to what was SUPPOSED to be a land fit for heroes.

  61. Arbroath 1320
    Ignored
    says:

    Apologies for going O/T but it would appear that the BBC Trust might just be agreeing with viewers of BBC Scotland.
     
    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8490-exclusive-trust-finds-bbc-scotland-guilty-of-breaking-guidelines-over-eu-indy-story

  62. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Arbroath1320 and others –
     
    Right, come on, come on…someone tell us non-telly watchers…did Newsnicht mention it at all?

  63. Training Day
    Ignored
    says:

    @JLT

    Fair do’s mate. It’s just that I see the anger you describe in a certain generation (not mine and not yours) being internalised and the results ain’t pretty. It can’t be easy having the rocks, the pillars of your very existence undermined and collapsing in front of you. It happened to my grandfather (in a religious sense) and he was broken and bitter for the rest of his life seeing the foundations of what he previously believed stripped away.

    O/T anyone who’s just watched Scotland Tonight..how much does Archie McPherson hate the idea of independence? Wow.

  64. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    I know the bt guy got away with the howler about the snp spending taxpayers money on referendum stuff,no mention of course, that we aren’t even allowed to know what westminster spends on ‘research’.

  65. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    No mention of bbc trust at all,no.

  66. gordoz
    Ignored
    says:

    How much do the people who support independence  find an old dinosaur like McPherson of any influence ( FFS who invited him on STV ??).  Thought he’d retired at best being honest ?

    Is he still on scottish TV anymore anyway, I take it, its because he comes free of charge ?

    Ian Smart on BBC why FFS ? He’s another Labour luvvie numpty who’s done nothing its embaressing.

  67. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    Newsnight. Ian Smart ( lawyer & labour activist): The object of the BT campaign isn’t just to win the referendum in sept next year but to FINISH THE INDEPENDENCE QUESTION FOR EVER!

  68. magnus barelegs
    Ignored
    says:

    thats right ian smart the only way to end the independence question forever is independence, your not as stupid as you look!

  69. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    You can’t finish a thought.The right of self determination seems ok to support elsewhere in the world like Palestine or South Sudan or South Africa for example.Just not here in Scotland.

  70. Gray
    Ignored
    says:

    However the Trust added that, “there was no evidence that the BBC had knowingly and materially misled audiences.”
     
    Aye right!

  71. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian smart: YIP HE’s A MEMBER OF SLAB, GOT ALL THE CHARACTERISTICS AND ATTITUDES!

  72. caz-m
    Ignored
    says:

    Joyce McMillan (The Scotsman) on Newsnight Scotland gives a big thumbs up for the YES Campaign. That’s another Don’t Know turned YES.

    She says the NO Campaign is far too negative.

    Ian Smart on same programme, he justifies everything that Joyce McMillan said.

    Ian Smart is an Ass Hole.

  73. Thepnr
    Ignored
    says:

    @caz-m
    “Ian Smart is an Ass Hole”

    Nope, he is a dangleberry on the edge of an Ass Hole.

  74. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    BBC MISTRUST! JOB DONE

  75. magnus barelegs
    Ignored
    says:

    were the bbc hushing up smarts credentials as SLAB activist/trougher? you bet they were! in the bbcs world the liebour stooge smarts opinion is highly regarded……..enough said!

  76. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Are BT relying on Archie McPherson?
     
    Woooooph!
     
    And Ian Smart? Seriously? Again?

  77. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    The shortening of odds on YES is very significant. One bookie has it at a little over 3/1/. It was generally 5/1 and even 11/2 fairly recently. 

  78. Bill C
    Ignored
    says:

    @msean – Spot on.

  79. Bill C
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill Shit. I thought I was being smart (not oor Ian you understand) and leave my bet to the last minute. I am a plonker, always knew YES would rise fast.

  80. Fab001
    Ignored
    says:

    If the BBC were ever wondering what a swift kick in the nads felt like well now they know after today’s ruling. Now behave yourself or they’ll be plenty more of that to come.

  81. Truth
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T
     
    The BBC reporting “The Scottish and UK governments will miss Friday’s election watchdog deadline to agree what will happen after the independence referendum.”

  82. Hetty
    Ignored
    says:

    Newsnight. Ian Smart ( lawyer & labour activist): The object of the BT campaign isn’t just to win the referendum in sept next year but to FINISH THE INDEPENDENCE QUESTION FOR EVER!

    Might that in fact effectively be to finish off Scotland and stop those Northerners ever getting above their station again with their fancy ideas of making a fairer and more equal country to live in! 

  83. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    I always meant to put £100 on every month for Yes to win, so by the time we got to the referendum, I’d be able to take early retirement.
     
    Hardly seems worth it now…

  84. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    By the way, Alan Bissett has confirmed that Archie Macpherson is, in fact, undecided. Normally I’d take that to be a “don’t want to admit to being a No” in the Susan Calman style, but I reckon Alan would know better than to fall for that one.

  85. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    jlt says
    “Is it your birthday today, mate! Happy Birthday if it is. Cheers again!”
     
    I’ll really need to do something with that bloody face space page. no its not 19/12 its 24/3 NO REALLY AND i’ll be 60 the day we declare independence in 2016 but thanks for the good wishes anyway.

  86. Early Ball
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    I backed independence twice at 4/1 in September and October. You can still get that and even 9/2.
    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome

  87. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    Stand down folks 
    no announcement today, 
    according to BBC news
    “both the Scottish and UK governments have missed the deadline and will get together in the new year”
    end of bullitin

  88. JLT
    Ignored
    says:

    Training Day says:
    @JLT

    Fair do’s mate. It’s just that I see the anger you describe in a certain generation (not mine and not yours) being internalised and the results ain’t pretty. It can’t be easy having the rocks, the pillars of your very existence undermined and collapsing in front of you.
     
    Exactly mate. Spot on there! Personally …that is how I think my Father sees it.

  89. JLT
    Ignored
    says:

    John King
    Ha ha ha…
    ‘Two birthdays in one year! Do you think your the Queen???’ (LOL)

  90. Illy
    Ignored
    says:

    Yeah, admitting that you’re wrong can be hard (especially for old men).  But I’m sure he’ll figure out how to do it in time for it to matter.
     
    Sometimes the message has to be: “We can’t fix Westminster, so let’s just take our ball and go home” (we can’t fix Westminster because it’s ruled by London and the south-east, and Westminster won’t help Scotland because we don’t have any Labor/Tory swing seats, so both parties assume that they know how we’ll vote)
     
    I got into an argument with a friend the other day about the referendum, he’s convinced that Westminster will “hold all the keys in negotiations” as he put it.

  91. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    no announcement today
     
    At least it seems we can expect it at some point.

  92. Craig P
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks for the odds tip, I’d meant to put a bet on for a while, must do it before the odds drop even further. 
     
    Joyce Macmillan has turned Yes? Wow.  

  93. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    I’ve posted this elsewhere but it’s worth noting today’s date.
     
    So today is December 20th, 2013. Ring any bells with anyone in media land?

    The Edinburgh Agreement
    6. The Order enables the Scottish Parliament to legislate for a referendum with one question on independence. The wording of the question will be for the Scottish Parliament to determine and will be set out in the Referendum Bill to be introduced by the Scottish Government, subject to the Electoral Commission’s review process, as set out in the paragraphs which follow.

    12. Both governments agree on the importance of the referendum being overseen in an impartial way by bodies that can command the confidence of both sides of the campaign. The Electoral Commission is responsible for overseeing referendums held under PPERA.

    Electoral Commission
    “In the Commission’s report on the proposed referendum question, published in January 2013, we recommended that the Scottish and UK Governments clarify what process should follow the referendum in sufficient detail so as to inform people what would happen if most voters voted ‘Yes’ or if most voters voted ‘No’.

    We are aware that discussions between both Governments are taking place and there are signs that progress towards a joint position is being made.

    We welcome this progress and have asked that a joint position is agreed by 20th December. This would provide clarity by the expected time of Royal Assent to the Referendum Bill and the subsequent opening of the register of permitted participants for campaigners at the referendum.”

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-referendums/referendum-plans-on-track-to-deliver-for-voters

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24238070

    So today’s headline story: Could Westminster Government be in danger of damaging the Edinburgh Agreement? Or perhaps ‘Has the Westminster government reneged on the advice of the Electoral Commission?’

    Unless of course there is a massive yet hitherto unflagged release due from Downing Street or Better Together on the consequences of a no vote, it appears they have chosen to completely ignore the Electoral Commission and breech at the very least the spirit of the Edinburgh Agreement.

    I’d say that’s worthy of some column inches don’t you think? Mind you it doesn’t have Salmond accused in front of it or Another blow to the YES campaign, but a change is as good as a rest.

  94. Derick Tulloch
    Ignored
    says:

    Re clicking links. Myself also. Time is short and I trust our joint employee to do accurate work. Further contribution cash in the newnow ye

  95. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    I think Joyce declared herself to be a Yes a few weeks ago. She’s a good example of the “soft No becomes Yes”, because I distinctly remember her penning a column about a year or so ago that made it clear she was in favour of the union, but was unhappy with the No campaign.
     
    I can’t remember if it was her or Alex Bell who said it, but I liked the idea that Yes can pretty much just sit back and take it easy for the next nine months while No continues to lose support with its crappy campaign. Not that we will sit back, of course…
     
    It’s an interesting idea, though. It ties in with what I’ve long thought about governments changing hands rarely being a result of the opposition winning the election, but rather of the incumbent government losing the election. People certainly don’t change a successful government, unless the opposition are even worse.

  96. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    tmitj says
    “watched it,”

    That programme was made with the participation of locals such as my cousins husband (a very dear friend of over 40 years) who played Baxter Baxter his name is George and his lack of dialogue in the early part of the film was explained by the large obvious scar seen on his neck in an early scene,

    he was recovering from throat surgery and he had difficulty speaking, most apparent when he shouted out (with a pronounced croak) some 40 minutes in,

    the real Happy Lands was an area of my town (still in existence when I was a child in the early 60s) was built for mine workers of the Jenny Gray pit owned by the Earl of Minto in land adjacent to the public park the name of the village “Carhill” was probably inspired by Cardenden, and Bowhill which was a rich area for collieries in their day as well as Lochgelly. 

  97. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    JLT says
    “Two birthdays in one year! Do you think your the Queen???’ (LOL)”
    Snort 
    Ha ha  my wife doesn’t think so.

  98. Kenny Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    Terry Kelly pretty sure he can get 7-1 on a YES vote……..
     
    http://councillorterrykelly.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/separation-71-against-union-19-on.html

  99. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    Mcarts says@ 08.36
     
    I’ve already sent an email protesting about the delay to the electoral commision

  100. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    4 – 1 for Yes vote down from 9 – 2. Falling to 7 – 2?

  101. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @John King
     
    Never hurts to give them a prod. 😉

  102. Boorach
    Ignored
    says:

    @ John King
     
    I’ll thank you not to use the ‘Lochgelly’ word in front of those of us who suffered copious administrations of it throughout our schooldays! 🙂

  103. Illy
    Ignored
    says:

    Re: reading links:
     
    No-one has enough time to read everything written anymore, even in their specific area.
     
    The solution people have come to is to read enough references to trust certain sources, and then assume that they can trust those sources.
     
    Providing references (links) is good, because it means that we *can* check up on you if we want, which helps with trusting you, but yeah, most of us don’t have the time.
     
    tl;dr: Someone who doesn’t read the links trusts you not to distort what they’re saying, take it as a compliment 😛

  104. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Boorach 
    made by Mr John J Dick of the parish the “Lochgelly Tawse” was the bane of many a naughty childs life in the 60s and before, I my self knew Mr Dick. 

  105. Illy
    Ignored
    says:

    (edit failed)
     
    A strange phenomenon that I don’t think nearly enough people understand:
     
    The best way to make someone trust you is to set things up so that they don’t *have* to trust you.

  106. Boorach
    Ignored
    says:

    It was pretty damn effective in the 50’s as well John I can assure you. Well, maybe not that effective as there wasn’t a single teacher who didn’t have occasion to use it on me following their kangaroo court!

  107. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    “there wasn’t a single teacher who didn’t have occasion to use it on me following their kangaroo court!”

    What ARE you saying?
    big boys done it an ran away?

  108. Bertie K
    Ignored
    says:

    Anyone flying the saltire this christmas might want to lower it to half mast in mourning of the bedroom tax, this would show solidarity with our less fortunate brothers and sisters and offer a welcoming hand at a time when they need us the most.
    Be it a sign that we can open our hearts.
    If everyone did this, who knows maybe it would send a clear signal back to people in certain quarters…

  109. Boorach
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Bertie K
     
    Nice idea Bertie, but, please anyone who does it remember that half mast is a flags-width from the top of the flag pole and not half the pole’s height.

  110. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart (8.34) –
     
    So, has there been no mention of it at all? Listened to radio sporadically, but missed GMS. You would expect such a landmark date to be acknowledged in some way, even if it was to contrive another attack on the SG.
     
    Whoever’s in charge of the old Memory Hole must be clocking up the overtime.

  111. Bertie K
    Ignored
    says:

    @boorach
    Thanks 🙂
    It wouldn’t have to be just for christmas, it could be permanent until the tax is abolished, but christmas would be the start.
    I’m sure sympathetic town houses coud be encouraged to do likewise to raise awareness and maybe we could put images of half-mast saltires out on twitter to drive the point forward?
    My sister works with disabled kids affected and I’m sure I could ask her to take some photos of them next to a half raised flag, might encourage others to follow.
    Just an idea…

  112. Jeannie
    Ignored
    says:

    Re Ian Smart’s performance on Newsnight last night.  Two things really annoyed me and he was challenged on neither, but should have been:
     
    The idea that this generation should ensure that independence is off the table, not just for now but for ever – how dare anybody think that they have the right to take that decision for future generations.  How do we know what a future Scotland will be like for our children and grandchildren if we vote No.  We have no right to take the option of self-determination away from them.  Independence should ALWAYS be on the table to protect those that come after us.
     
    The other thing that annoyed me was his assertion that proposals for union representation on the boards of companies would mean NO union representaton in the workplace.  What kind of thinking is that?  He claimed it was in the White Paper.  However, what it actually says in the White Paper is:
     
    “We will work with the STUC and the business community on mechanisms to formalise the relationship between government, employer associations  and employee associations with a particular focus on encouraging wider trade union participation and in recognition of the posiive role that can be played by collective bargaining in improving labour market conditions”
     
    Why wasn’t Smart challenged by Brewer on his obvious scaremongering?  Has Brewer not read the White Paper? Smart was clearly saying that unions would not be allowed – the opposite of what is proposed!  He needs to be called out on this.

  113. Bertie K
    Ignored
    says:

    A campaign selling flags for this purpose would have a positive effect on the mindset of the Scots and show the world what we are all about, charitible and proud. – the monies raised from the flags could be used to directly invest in the less well off in our country.
    Just ideas like….

  114. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ian Brotherhood
     
    Haven’t clocked the radio this morning, but checked the usual suspects front pages. Not a sausage so far.

  115. Training Day
    Ignored
    says:

    @Doug

    Well, if Archie McPherson’s gone from the man who ‘certainly hoped’ that Alex Ferguson would get involved with Better Together to someone who, despite the apparent distaste on his face when Alan Bissett mentioned the DFM, is an undecided, then by God Yes is making bigger inroads than even we thought!

  116. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “Joyce Macmillan has turned Yes?”

    Strictly speaking, she said she was LEANING Yes.

  117. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    John King, Boorach, Re your Lochgelly twase, it came in many forms of torture, 1″ to 2″ from single strap, to four twase, made from the best bridle leather, they took that much pride in their product the stamped it with makers name ( a bit like littlebritains just now ) lol & sos we all remember the pain of both those makers stamps, one consigned to the dustbin of history, one to go HA HA ,WE have survived the TWASE WE Will survive WHIT was formaly know as Gnat Britain

  118. Jeannie
    Ignored
    says:

    @John King, Boorach, Ronnie
     
    I well remember getting the belt at school.  The teachers had ordinary belts, but the headmistress had a special belt called “Nippy”.  We used to live in fear and dread of Nippy.  I got Nippy once for breaking a window.  Happy Days 🙂

  119. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Ah forgoat tae mention the Double hand splits, the pain wis awe their ain, much like noooooo ha ha

  120. gerry parker
    Ignored
    says:

    Elaine Smith’s article in the Airdrie and Coatbridge Advertiser this week peddles the same old unionist guff.  I sent her a reply to it inviting her to consider the financial and economic implications to the money markets of no currency union, and a question on the Spanish fishing fleets bleak outlook should they not be allowed to fish in Scotland’s territorial waters, and what they intend to do regarding my EU citizenship.
    Political reality will have to break out at some point.

    I don’t expect a reply.
    🙂

    Dear me – I did get a reply!
     
    PS – wished her a Good Christmas and a prosperous New Year too.
    g.p

  121. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Mind boggling stuff from Alison Rowat in today’s Herald who seems to think Ms Lamont shines at FMQ. This of course is newspaper legend recounted weekly in the sure knowledge that very few of their readers ever watch FMQ
    Perish the day that is should be so coarse but an acquaintance has suggested that Ms Lamont gets her arse handed back to her every week and I couldn’t possibly disagree.
     
    Ms Rowat however than goes on to suggest that Ms Lamont is generally invisible in the wider view of things and wonders why .
    It’s because she’s hopeless, hen.
    Anytime she has been put live into a debate on TV she has floundered because all she can actually do is read a script at FMQ. She is now being kept off the airwaves.
    Ms Lamont is one of those political figures who fare best when known least. 
    The more people see of her the less they are inclined to support her. Long may she remain in post!
    I’m away to get the last of the 4/1 at the bookies.

  122. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Jeannie, that wiz the lasses belt, we were in the big boys club, 2,3,4, twase lol

  123. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Early Ball at 6.48 
     
    Yes. Only on bet365 however which is not a high street bookie,. The major firms which were offering 5/1 and even 11/2 a couple of months ago are offering 4/1 and that is unlikely to last  and a couple are already down to 7/2 or 0/30.
    What has happened is that their information (biased and politically motivated) and the actual betting patterns have been contradictory with over twice the volume of bets coming in on a YES vote than on a NAW.
    If they were to reflect only the betting they would have YES at favourite but they will be factoring in information and polling to their odds

  124. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    OT
    I dont know if this might shake the confidence of those No sayers who believe that the status quo will be alright. And its from the Union’s favourite paper.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2526764/Why-fortune-really-does-favour-brave-People-trust-fate-likely-worse-believe-change-future.html

  125. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    gerry parker , you must be chumpin at the bit fur the ither 2 christmas messages, waiting in line, ( lord tom clarke ) pamala miss mash lol, ah hope you wished mss smith, a very merry retirement
     

  126. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    Ronnie. 

     “we were in the big boys club, 2,3,4, twase lol”
     
    We used to hold out one hand under the other for 3 of the belt and as the teacher took a swing spread our hands out and the belt missed ,went between our outspread hands and hit the teacher on the leg, 
    then we’d get 6 o the belt, we never learned, but it was worth it to see a big bully of a teacher hit himself in the baws

      

  127. gerry parker
    Ignored
    says:

    Ronnie – Aye, a canny wait for the other two.
    btw I told Elaine I’d donate £100 quid to Bernado’s if we didn’t get a currency union or EU membership.  I recon my money’s safe but I’ll gie them a donation anyway.

  128. Morag
    Ignored
    says:

    I heard Salmond on GMS this morning.  He was relaxed, affable, and had an absolutely astounding command of his brief.
     
    No wonder we don’t hear more of him.

  129. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T I do apologise
     
    I see the Daily (drivel) Record, carries a so called damining report about the NHS by non other than the master of colour in by numbers David Clegg
     
    Clegg even includes a large picture, of Johan Lamont pointing her finger in a rage filled way (Not a pretty sight I can tell you).
     
    Anyway Clegg goes off on one stating that England, are taking tough action to maintain the NHS, hmm surprising,as 49% of it is now in private hands, Clegg, leaves two lines for reply from the S&G where he reluctantly states that NHS staff, is up by 7000 since Labour had control in 2006.
     
    One thing is for sure when the failing Daily (drivel) Record runs a story and it puts the SNP or the independence movement in a supposedly poor light they run with the dead on its feet story, no matter how exhausted or out of date it is, pathetic.



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