Two countries
Earlier this year, a Secretary of State in Her Majesty’s Government leaked an untrue memo to the press, with the intention of undermining the democratically-elected First Minister of Scotland and damaging her party in an imminent general election. He then went on national TV and lied about doing so, in order to protect his own reputation.
The newspaper he leaked the smear to printed it without making the slightest attempt to ascertain its veracity, for which it was nominated for an award (even after having been strongly censured by the press complaints watchdog). The “journalist” involved has never retracted or apologised for the story. Others have defended it.
The minister’s colleagues and other opposition politicians gleefully leapt on the smear and propagated it, mostly failing to retract their accusations after they were shown to have been false. Others shrugged that it was normal and fine for politicians to tell “brazen” lies and that complaining about it was “bullying”.
These facts are not in dispute. Tomorrow morning we’ll find out what they mean.
Because one of two things will become clear:
– either a court of law will decide that we all live in a country where such behaviour is regarded as unacceptable, Mr Carmichael will be removed from the seat he won at the election, and foodbanks across Scotland will receive a Christmas bonus in the form of £165,000 that four of his constituents raised to pursue him in court;
– or it will to all intents and purposes declare that we live in one where politicians are free to lie and smear with impunity, seeking to subvert democracy behind the figleaf of a semantic technicality, and also that Mr Carmichael can bankrupt the constituents with crippling legal costs for trying to hold him to account over the lie he now freely admits to having told.
A heavy burden was placed on the shoulders of esteemed judges Lord Matthews and Lady Paton, whose verdict has by now already been made, pending only its release to the public. They were charged with deciding, on the basis of an ambiguously-worded law, which of those two Britains would prevail. For the next few hours we stand in the limbo of a Schrödinger laboratory, awaiting the opening of the box.
One way or another, the ramifications of their judgement will last far beyond tomorrow and will impact on far more than the five people on either side of their courtroom.
For everyone’s sake, we hope they chose wisely.
Can I ask how the foodbanks will benefit if they Orkney group win?
Their legal fees are fixed win or lose and they are exceptionally unlikley to suffer Carmichaels costs even should the decision go against them.
Either way, the costs are the same.
We will also find out whether Lord Matthews is a fine example of the independence of the judiciary or simply another SNP stooge.
But we have already found out how fearful the establishment is that they hover over their keyboards keen to be the first and second to respond to a Wings post
@Gordon Hay – you are very brave attempting to defame a QC
Sorry Justin, you have me confused with someone else.
Long time Wings reader, supporter of indy and during the ref had one of the most influential twitter accounts in Scotland (top 100).
*Exceptionally* pro indy, but at the same time feel entitled to ask legitimate questions of the Rev. I’m fairly sure he doesn’t need you defending him.
Perhaps you’d care to attempt an answer to my query? I fail to see how foodbanks benefit as described but if someone could enlighten me I’d be obliged.
If you win a court case it’s normal for the other side to have to pay your costs.
Gordon Hay says:
8 December, 2015 at 9:10 pm
…I can smell fear 😀
Useful contribution from Gordon Hay, aimed, like all better together stuff, at half-wits, none of whom read Wings.
Gordon Hay: Did you lose the will to type further?
Just one sentence to besmirch one of the judges in the case, Lord Matthew! Had previous dealings with him to justify your comment? And Lady Paton, is she also a stooge?
C’mon man, tell us more.
I think the esteemed Judges will be loathe to break ranks with the establishment.
One can hope but I think they will slap his wrist and tell him not to do it again.
Folks, I think Gordon is referring to how the media will treat the decision…
@Justin Kenrick
@liz
@Clootie
There was me thinking that was a good stab at irony, I’m crushed. Or did the attempted MSM tainting of Lord Matthews involvement in the case by referencing his previous political activities pass you by?
@Gordon Hay
You are obviously unaware that most judges in Scotland belonged to political parties,mostly Labour or Tory,since they were recruited from political posts like Lord Advocate.
His party allegiance in the past will probably work against the pursuers in his bending over backwards to appear fair. I hope his fellow judge will stiffen his and our desire for justice.
Well, I’m guessing that ‘costs’ will be awarded against whichever side loses.
If the respondent loses, then the crowdfunded sum will not be needed for legal fees, because the respondent will have to pay these, freeing up the crowdfunded cash for foodbanks.
Don’t forget the Dundee based ‘Taught By Muhammad’ foodbank, by the way.
http://www.taughtbymuhammad.com/
Not sure about the ‘election court’, but normally at Court of Session costs are a separate issue outwith vexatious or lost cause cases. Either side may move for costs, but I sincerely believe in this case the judges will reserve that matter. They acknowledged early on there was a case to hear and one to answer. The law is old, untested and not clear therefore in my view exceptionally unlikely for costs to be awarded either way.
I also sincerley hope I’m wrong but in one direction only. It would be nice to see the book thrown completely at Carmichael. I can see now that being the only circumstance where the foodback will benefit to the full.
That must be a 1st for you Rev-unionists 1 & 2 on the thread. Worried? Yup 🙂
Even if the case is lost tomorrow-it demonstrates what can be done when enough of us act together to challenge those who seek to destroy what little democracy we have.
We will support the Orkney 4 whatever happens. The glove was been thrown down & the people picked it up,ran with it & gave it their best shot. All credit to those brave souls & their legal team.
I certainly wouldn’t bank on it not happening again if an election candidate should do the same again in the future. The people have a real taste for fighting back now & they’ll just make sure they’ll do an even better job of it next time if it’s possible to do that.
The prosectution of this case has simply shown that trying to price the citizenry out of justice is no protection for our so-called ‘betters’ who think they can get away with anything they like.
The Wings post entitled The Awful Truth, published on 31 May this year, told how Damien McBride and Robert Hutton agreed that Carmichael would have to go, while chortling about the Right Honourable Kirk Elder’s filthy stories.
Sadly, the link in the post to that broadcast discussion (from Radio 4’s The Week in Westminster) no longer works.
It is as if it never happened.
I hope it’s not a bad sign that the Orkney four have lost because of the latest appeal given If you win a court case it’s normal for the other side to have to pay your costs.
“If you win a court case it’s normal for the other side to have to pay your costs.”
However, if a well-founded and plainly not vexatious case is brought and lost by the skin of its teeth on a technicality when the facts of the case plainly demonstrate that the “winner” has acted wholly dishonourably, it would be surprising for the Court to award costs against the petitioners.
Courts are free simply to make no declaration as to costs and frequently do so (as the Lords did in my case).
For what its worth my guess is –
The decision will go against the Orkney group. Carmichael will be found not to have fallen foul of the legislation as written. However, I also suspect the judgement in its wording will be so damaging that his career will effectively be over. No costs will be awarded either way. That in itself would speak volumes for the plaintiffs in the case.
I’m happy to bow to superior knowledge of Scottish courts if it’s the case. Every time I’ve been in one down here, loser paid for everyone regardless of how legitimately arguable their case had been.
I contributed to the legal costs to take Carmichael to court. If he wins I will, if necessary, contribute again to ensure that those who took the case to court do not suffer.
Carmichael should be unseated and should be required to pay costs.
We have to continue to press to rid the political system of those who are corrupt.
Hopefully Lord Matthews is a fine example of the independence of the Judiciary from the Establishment and of Scottish Law and Justice!
Surely!
I have such a low opinion of the government of the UK I just can’t believe Carmichael will lose.
His lawyer all but warned of the consequence for the legal profession and judiciary in particular of going up against this state’s politicians. We can also guess at the level of pressure being placed on any judge not prepared to make the “right” choice.
Does anyone know if there is an appeal process (for both sides) in this type of case?
I assume there isn’t but just wondering, election law isn’t my area of expertise 😛
Neither… they will kick the can down the road.
Jesus h christ, can *someone* please point out to me what is *unionist* about my post number 1 on this thread?
Carmichael will emerge like carbolic or a carbuncle.
If the latter, we can point to the judgement as the sort of new enlightenment we want in an independent Scotland.
So next time Gordon Brewster asks that political guest the heavy-handed question, “What do you mean by a just and social society?” we can begin with Carmichael.
If he Carmichael gets off with brazen mendacity we can still point to his example as the sort of society we comprehensively reject, and the attempt to bring him to account as 22 carat democracy in process.
As I have just tweeted:
I fear the worst … Carmichael is NOT de-seated, he carries on without a flicker of remorse.
I do however hope for the best … Carmichael IS de-selected and a by-election where he can not stand is called!
It is going to be a long long night folks.
Keep the faith … immaterial of the result WE will persevere and WE will win in the end!
‘That’s politics’.
Well it is if we allow it to be. We can allow our public servants to lie to us for personal gain and party agenda, or regardless of tomorrows findings we send the message that enough is enough!
We clean every single one of them out till they get the message loud and clear to clean up their act. The clue is in the job description ‘public SERVANT’.
If anyone lies to their employer in the real world, it doesn’t come as a stunning surprise if on being found out they (at the very least), lose their job. Politicians are no different. They put their socks on one foot at a time just like the rest of us and should bear the same penalties for crossing a line, just like us. If they break the law, they go to jail. If they lie to us, they lose their job.
Whatever happens tomorrow, the public are fully aware of Carmichael’s actions and that to this day he carries the support of his party. Next May will come round soon enough for the Lib dems and for Mr Carmichael? His reputation is already trashed, his legacy shame.
The parties and representatives who remain will hopefully get the message. We’re done with politics as it is practised in the UK.
…I can smell fear
That’s me.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35027705
The unionist line on this is fascinating. A few months ago we had all the Tories trying to pretend that fellatio with a dead pig was normal behaviour. Now we have people who believe Scotland is better in the UK arguing that something will be very wrong if a court doesn’t accept that the right of UK politician lying to rig an election should be protected.
Don’t these people understand the effect of this in the next independence referendum?
Gordon Hay at 9:29pm
Just a little tip: irony and sarcasm don’t work at all well on the internet. Something to do with the lack of facial expressions and visible gestures.
They invented “emojis” to combat this, but even “emojis” don’t always convey the subtler connotations of human language.
This is often because the writer assumes their readers have knowledge or have read the same articles they have, when in fact they haven’t.
In a nutshell, a writer may believe their meaning is glaringly obvious but to the reader it just isn’t.
Still hoping for a win for the petitioners, but I fear McHaggis69 may be spot on.
McHaggis: for your peace of mind, there is nothing Unionist about your post. Seems OK to me, and raises the point that I didn’t know, that case loser does not automatically pay case winner’s costs.
So, thanks
@McHaggis69.
Nothing. Think everyone is on edge. Things like irony don’t work in that environment as per the comment after yours.
Costs can be awarded or not depending on judges discretion, to whoever wins the case.
Let’s keep our fingers crossed.
Alistair Carmichael has denied no wrongdoing and has admitted and insisted his lie of being guilty was not true
It’s the self talking stuff I have difficulty with, who came up with such crap
Let’s hope the useless lying B’stard fries,and I don’t give two monkeys about his family or any of that Yoon purile defence nonsence his family and the Lib Dums know he was a liar and should have had the guts to speak up and not try to buy the pot out from under these complainants
So good luck to the Orkney folk and well done and no matter what happens we’ll make sure that money’s made up so any of these Yoon Bastirts in the future can take note
Whether Scotland wins or loses we’ll make sure the guilty don’t get away with it one way or another
McHaggis
I think the 2nd post was the one in question. I saw nothing strange about your question. Someone better versed in these matters should answer it but it would make sense that the Orkney 4’s costs will fall on Carmichael if they win and therefore the £165K raised would in that case be free to be used as they see fit (apparently to be donated to Scotland’s foodbanks in a generous move that the judges will certainly be aware of).
My basic understanding of these matters is that the judges will decide: 1. the verdict (which will be judged on the interpretation of the law)
2. the awarding of costs.
I think it possible that the Orkney 4 lose and the judges award their costs but time will tell.
They have risked everything in the pursuit of justice- they truly are modern day heroes, deserving of our continued support.
@Gordon Haye – apologies, sometimes it’s hard to tell LOL
Yes, the court decision tomorrow, will either mean it is,
a. Fine and dandy for a UK Government minister to lie like a trooper and try to undermine the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland and subvert democracy.
b. Not acceptable for cabinet ministers or any other MP’s to brazenly lie and deceive their constituents, with the intention of undermining the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland.
Either way, Carmichael leaves court with zero credibility. An utter shambles of a man.
The Orkney four can hold their heads high, for they have shown the utmost determination and tenacity, in order to try to make elected MP’s uphold standards of decency and integrity.
Their funding site is here, and you can generously help them with their legal bills;
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/updates
@HandandShrimp
I think the esteemed Judges will be loathe to break ranks with the establishment.
Sadly I feel the same, the decision is now made, we have yet to hear it. Like all that want to oppose corruption and lies in politics my heart wants a victory for the Orkney & Shetland four.
My head tells me that this is unlikely.
I felt the same way when they first took this brave step of challenging Carmichael, most likely not having a clue what they were getting themselves into. So I supported them as did thousand of others.
Win or lose, I would applaud them for their bravery in taking it this far, this is monumental IMO and unlikely to occur again for decades. They have sent a message, loud and clear.
The people will hold you to account for your lies, you are elected to work for US.
If Carmichael wins, then the petitioners, the Orkney & Shetland four may be responsible for his legal costs too. I suspect that is why the most recent fundraiser has arisen. A “just in case”.
Everyone one of them can hold their head high, they attempted something I could not contemplate by putting their own livelihoods and even homes on the line.
No matter, win or lose we will not let them down. We made a promise when they started this case, lets keep that promise.
I’m with McHaggis 69.
I think the case will find that Carmichael did not break electoral law but the written judgement will rip his fat arse wide open and leave him no choice but to resign.
Once a court passes a written judgement that a person has lied his or her career in public service is over. He will never ever be trusted again. Then the commons standards committee have no choice but to pursue him as not being a fit and proper person to sit in the house.
If he survives tomorrow that is only the beginning.
As for costs. I put another £25 in last week and will do that every week until the Orkney 4 are in the black.
@Mchaggis69 & @Gordon Haye – apologies from me too
Nothing wrong with legitimate questions and with irony. Looks like my being on edge over this meant I mistook a serious question as being dismissal, and didn’t spot the irony.
No question as to Lord Matthews’ integrity. Nor his ability to uphold the letter of the law. A fine upstanding man. May he live long & prosper.
‘The ramifications of their judgement…. will impact on far more than five people’
Indeed.
If he is not found guilty, then I shall seek to live in a more democratic country and will undertake to emigrate to North Korea.Not sure if an emoji is required.
I’m a bit pessimistic about this court case too, but look at it this way: If Carmichael loses, we win. If Carmichael wins, we win again.
It will just take a wee while for the information to filter through to the Scots which is that you can’t trust the UK System. A very irate population will then show their displeasure next May in the polling booths.
Only human arrogance could lead to a theory that the cat has to be both alive and dead until observed by a human.
incidentally if he wins the Lib Dems will be finished in Scotland.
If he looses the lib Dems will be finished in Scotland.
See a pattern ????
I trust in the legal process. We all must. Regardless of political leaning, the judges will follow the judicial process. It’s their training, their reputation, and their way of life. We must trust them to find honestly and with impartiality.
dakk at 10:11pm
Are you serious about North Korea??!
😉
I won’t be holding my breath. That way, I may just get a pleasant surprise.
Will Wullie Rennie stand by The Lying Man
Place yir bets
I hope that the scribes who record Scotland’s history are keeping up with the list of tractors who would rather sell their souls than agree to Scotland becoming an Independent Nation.
No matter what happens tomorrow, this particular piece of Unionist shit if finished in Scotland.
Hopefully, even being on the side of the establishment means having to find him guilty. You want to be able to say that politicians will all be truthful and lovely from here on in.
re= Schrödinger laboratory
psst, a word from the inside….
guilty as hell m’lud
I’m actually quite excited! Something actually happening in Scottish politics. It’s been a bit too quiet recently.
Feel for the four but believe they will be OK no matter which way it goes.
Unfortunately I think the majority of unionist politicians do not yet realise the importance and the implications of this court case.
Your summary is great and will help me focus on the actual result tomorrow whilst I wade through the dross which will inevitably be put up by the main stream media
I have to be honest here and say sadly I think Carmichael will win this case. Not because he deserves to but the legal system in Scotland is conservative, and will tend to favour being on what they regard as the safe/establishment side imo. As long as we are the Union, that means Carmichael will probably win, and he will not stand down as an MP. He is a unionist, and the politicians from that side of the constitutional divide tend to be only concerned about their careers.
I mean to say, how many people seriously think the likes of Jimmy Hood, Douglas Alexander, Jim Murphy, Margaret Curran et al were down fighting for Scotland’s interests at Westminster? There are exceptions, I think Donald Dewar was genuinely interested in Scotland, but there were very few of them from the unionist side imo.
Carmichaels smear of the First Minister was disgraceful but hardly surprising.Thats just the kind of him.However,his smear caused embarrassment to the French Ambassador.It dragged her into a grubby little plot.The suggestion that “something was lost in translation” called into question the competence of the French ambassador and her staff,language being crucial and central to any diplomatic mission.I would suspect that this aspect of the whole sordid affair caused a lot of annoyance in Westminster.
Carmichael is a liar and a cheat.Thats the truth,whatever the outcome of this case.Shame on him.
Well the national are going with the terminator on the front cover. What was it he used to say, hasta la vista.
I admire the Orkney four and if needed will donate again.
Rev, don’t forget the million odd quid he cost the taxpayer keeping mum while the investigation was under way…Why isn’t someone somewhere trying to get that money back.
I’d also hope that if even if they lose, the guys that took him to court should receive some kind of public recognition for their bravery in taking on the establishment and highlighting the mendacious nature of lib dems in Scotland.
I see the Orkney group’s funds are up to just below £164K.
Now would be a good time to give them an early Christmas present and donate to get them up to their target.
There is doubt in a lot of people here over this case, myself included.
However, there really should be no doubt, he is a self admitted liar and that should be the deciding factor, inescapable.
However, we are dealing with Scottish law, but we know how Westminster works, hence our doubt. We just know they will be trying to pervert the action against one of their own.
The problem the judges have is whether they are true protectors of Scottish law and withstand the pressures sure to have been loaded on to them from every source Westminster can find.
So tomorrow we will see what they are made of.
Whatever the outcome, we cannot see these people in dire straights, we must back them to the hilt. While some obscure wording may defeat their just cause. We Have to, ensure they personally do not lose personally out of this.
As others have said, they are real hero’s. We the Scottish people need to continue to stand with them, even if we do have to go the last mile too.
David McDowell
‘Are you serious about North Korea ?’
Deadly.
But I will accept South if North doesn’t have me.
Eh Mchaggis I suspect folk jumped on your post because it was first up and revolved around a ‘query’ (criticism?) that was not central or germane to the basic premise of the article; ie, what political culture will we inherit post-verdict. And costs-payable or not the Orkney Four, on more than one occasion, made clear they’d rather see the funds raised go to Scotland’s foodbanks than on costs from prosecuting this case. In that context the foodbank reference provides a reasonable emotional counter-point to Carmichael’s stubborn Establishment sense of personal entitlement. That a reasonable “that’s why”?
I did not think that I could be any more saddened and ashamed that my children live in a country abused by the corruption of the UK union.
Looks like I may be wrong.
Remember the House of Commons Standards investigation has still to report.
Hansard were at the Election Court in Edinburgh recording the full proceedings and have on record his catalogue of lies including misleading and not being fully truthful to the Cabinet Office enquiry.
If tomorrow goes with him he may be caught by the new recall legislation.
Can either party appeal the result?
Is their a higher legislature to appeal to?
The electoral law in the UK is spread across some 25 major statutes & since it was all written by the parliamentary cronies at Westminster, much of it is deliberately weaker than Lord George Foulke’s bladder.
I therefore expect Carmichael to escape the guillotine tomorrow which if nothing else, will be just one more example of the rotten system under which we are governed.
Still, could be worse.
I have always feared that the judgment will be in favour of Carmichael but the terms in which it is couched will be damning.
To the four, you are not going to be left to walk alone regardless of the judgment.
Carmichael alive and dead simultaneously, even when the box is opened – now there’s a thought which describes the outcome well, whatever it is.
Schrodinger was a smart cookie, but even he didn’t think of that outcome.
Should OUR brave people fail and suffer financially, I would be happy to be a part of a monthly DD to ease their pain…most probably be tax free too as it would be ‘gifted’
I will be effn raging if the brave 4 lose to the devils one!!!
If there was a technicality or point of law that would allow Carmichael to win the case, surely that would have been obvious in the first hearing, where I thought these issues were discussed, and the trial ended then?
Why put ordinary people through all the trauma and cost?
Re Bridge
On Scotland2015 I just heard Willie Rennie ask Derek Mackay “What next is unpredictable and unforseen”
Derek. Mackay to his credit just smiled in a shy sort of way on being asked to play God by Willie Rennie.
Does embdy else think that £208K costs for just one side speaks to a major failure of our legal system?
The self preservation mechanisms of the British Establishment reaches all crevasses of our society including the Law,so I will be pleasantly surprised if Carmichael gets done.
If he does,then it is one more nail in Scottish unionist politician’s coffins.
I suppose on the up side, it now means that everyone knows that unionist politicians are protected by Law and that they have the official backing of the State to lie.
The Scottish public now has no reason to believe a word they say come the next Independence referendum.
Remember the case is not about whether he lied but about whether the lie was personal or political. The judges of the court can determine what they consider to be the balance of probabilities on the evidence led before them but they are a court of the Westminster Parliament and as English constitutional practice has it Parliament has the supremacy in law so they do not have to accept the judges verdict, especially as the case is likely to revolve about what is, and the acceptabilty of, a political lie, things that they will consider they have much more knowledge of than mere legal praticioners however exalted.
What is the penalty for lack of sentence breaks? Is it better or worse than HAMMERS?
Good question @ scott at 10.43
can either of them appeal or is this it
Off topic, but I see that there is a petition started to show displeasure at Trump’s recent comments on Muslims (and varied other topics…) by asking the Robert Gordon University to strip him of his honorary degree.
I graduated from RGIT and returned my degree in protest (following the example of Dr Kennedy ) when the degree was originally awarded, so am delighted that so many people now agree that this award is not in the interest of the University or it’s students.
It’s a shame it’s posted on 38degree’s, but if any of you would like to sign here’s a link. It’s gathered 5000 signatures in the last 4 hours.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/donald-j-trump-revoke-rgu-degree
One thing is for sure, no matter what way this goes tomorrow, Carbuncle is history.
The power of the internet will make sure that even if he farts in an elevator, we will drive him to political oblivion.
Rob Outram@10.35,
We won’t let him away with the 1 million bill either.
Carbuncle Tick,Tock.
Willie Rennie and the Scotland 2015 presenter tag-teaming there on the SNP crack in the Forth Road Bridge. A truly remarkable piece of television.
Willie said something that baffles me: “it was unpredictable and unforeseen… what next is going to be unpredictable and unforeseen. What kind of guarantees and assurances can we have that this kind of thing won’t happen again…”
One wonders what guarantees and assurances could be offered that nothing unforeseen or unpredictable will happen again. I don’t think even the capable Derek Mackay can offer such a guarantee.
Not one word- not ONE SOLITARY MENTION of the SNP’s decision to build a new fucking bridge.
http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/nicola-sturgeon-protests-too-much-about-alistair-carmichael/
Hard line toryboy sets the UKOK cut n paste for Scottish news tomorrow and every day til next May
Who would have thunk it?
The SNP is, by some margin, the most dishonest party in Britain. For its leader to call for Alistair Carmichael’s resignation because he leaked a memo is laughable.”
English toryboy world is watching very closely and they are all completely shameless. They even made Danny Alexander a knight of the realm, although Sir Daniel did help end the LibdDem party, with henchmen like Malcolm Bruce, Lord Ming the Merciless etc, all kicked out by their electorate or legged it like Lord Flipper of Mayfair. Wiki says 111 LibDem lords a troughing, and 8 LibDem MP’s, tasty, sorry UKOK tasty.
So arise Lord Alistair Carbuncle, of Mayfair.
Who’d have UKOK thunk it:D
Tomorrow we will find out who wins or loses. Whatever happens Carmichael will be branded as a liar for the rest of his life and will have to live with the consequences in a small community.
OK folks, remember a few weeks ago we had the media going full nuclear on the idea that a Russian sub was off the West coast of S******d?
Well I think I may have just found out where it is. 😉
https://www.rt.com/news/325143-russia-strikes-isis-submarine/
Don’t hit the PANIC button just yet though folks because we all know that unless the BBC/STV/SKY report this as FACT then we all know this is just unsubstantiated rumour … right? 😉
I’m afraid like others l believe our justiciary and court system are ingrained with a queen and country mentality. Which equals conservative,which equals establishment. You cannot beat the system. Which equals Carmichael will not lose.
I have no doubt that Carbuncle will be exonerated. Does anyone really think this buffoon did it all off his own bat? The whole thing exploded after Nicola won the televised debate between the leaders of the seven parties — expressing mildly left-wing policies in strong support of the NHS and regarding people as human beings who need protected by our taxes.
You can imagine how that went down with the Bullingdon-City elite, whose puppet (Dave) was beaten into second place (even the Telegraph accepted this).
Tomorrow, I am expecting Carbuncle to be exonerated, while being maybe mildly censored on one count. And tomorrow I will be sending a further cheque for an even larger sum to the Orkney Four, who have put their entire livelihoods and futures on the line FOR US!
*For everyone’s sake, we hope they chose wisely.*
Poor final sentence, I feel.
I don’t think the judges are “chosing” a verdict but coming to a verdict after analysing legislation and witness statements.
I met an estimed law Lord from Edinburgh shortly after the referendum. We were in a mutual friends house. He was left totally speechless when we said we had voted Yes. He had never met anyone who had voted Yes. They live in a bubble of like minded people. I don’t think they really know what the real world is all about.
Les Wilson,
It is nothing to do with Scottish law.
It is UK election law and it was an UK election court sitting in Scotland with Scots judges.
Holy fcuk
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35046961
Just fired off very stern complaint to BBC vote SLab Scotland.
Its LORD Darling, not Mr Darling. Honestly, BBC propagandists today.
Good for Lord Darling though, Crash, not a Lord yet, Gordon’s got a job with a Californian hedge fund, a pretty big one too, and Lord Flipper’s on the board at Morgan Stanley.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/money/morgan-stanley-borrowed-107-billion-banks-2008-financial-company-bailout-article-1.950274
So there you UKOK go!
Sit back at the UKOK Treasury explaining how you ended boom and bust, but with not the faintest idea youre heading for the biggest crash of all time, then the banksters put you on the board, socialism for the banksters, austerity for the poor, seats on the board for the red toryboys.
Thanks again proudScot buts.
Am I alone in thinking this site is under seige?
what really annoys me about the leak is more and somtimes all is put on the leak
and nothing is ever made of the fact it was not true
It will be interesting if he hits front page news as another scandal like the SNP msps who were never taken to court or indeed charged with anything
electrol laws were broken by the unionists
civil servents broke the referendum law
leader of the labour party in scotland looked at votes
bbc nick broke laws
daily rectrum broke law
how many of them have been found guilty
so what hope carmichael being found guilty
I used think Alex Massie was a dick, I’ve changed my mind he is a fecking prick!
@heedtracker
That is the Establishment fighting the Orkney four. Fighting us.
Baroness Mone of Mayfair (Official title, Lady Mone)
Baron George Foulkes of Cumnock (Official title, Lord Foulkes)
Baron Alastair Darling of Roulanish (Official title, Total Dick)
No way are the Scots Independence supporters losing this fight LOL.
dakk at 10:37pm
“Deadly. But I will accept South if North doesn’t have me.”
Damn! I thought you were being ironic!
Around 17.49 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06r05rk/an-la-08122015
Carmicheal follwed by Foulkes protecting Scotland from a ‘one party state’
@Tam Jardine
I’m still howling and laughing at Willie Rennie demanding to know the next thing that’s going to be unpredictable and unforeseen
If you look closely you can see Derek McKay’s face almost split, his mouth starts to curl up, then the camera cut away, I was sure Derek was going to lose it there
#SNP must predict the future
All of my life I will never forget the time,when we, the ordinary people said enough is enough,and handed over our pounds and cheques to four brave souls who stood in the vanguard of our movement for justice.
It was and always will be an inspiration to those who follow
Regardless of thd verdict ,that pride will remain with me and will be passed to my grandchildren who already know about independence courtesy of granda.
Thank you every one of you out there who has reinforced to me the honour I have in being a Scot. We stand together.
To the four, you will be supported no matter what.Thank you.
Linda Fabiani gave Foulkes a tanking on Scotland Tonight. About time there was some SNP assertiveness.
Dr Jim says:
8 December, 2015 at 11:53 pm
@Tam Jardine
I’m still howling and laughing at Willie Rennie demanding to know the next thing that’s going to be unpredictable and unforeseen
Oh PLEASE let’s see Nicola use that exact phrase in response to one of his useless questions during this week’s FMQ’S! 😀
Odd-Wings Twitter down but others are working ok
Thepnr says:
8 December, 2015 at 11:34 pm
@heedtracker
That is the Establishment fighting the Orkney four. Fighting us.
UKOK establishment is straight out of medieval England. Its all so corrupt, they should be clanking around in suits of armour, balling their fat heads off from their castle’s turrets at the vile separatists of their Scotland lands o the north. Its so UKOK insanely corrupt, it should be a great Python Holy Grail movie. Even that Ian Murray looks like a court jester.
Donald Dewar was interested in three things
Donald Dewar
The Labour party
Where’s the camera
I forgot the other one “How Much”
Fingers crossed!
I have no idea how the court judges will decide but I have the utmost respect for the Orkney Four and the work they have put into this case.
Either way Carmichael is finished as a respected politician and therefore he will most likely end up in the House of Lords.
Today is an important day for Scotland’s future so Good Luck to the Orkney 4.
If anyone has any problems with their internet in the coming days then might I be allowed to be so bold as to suggest that this may be the *ahem* cause. 😀
https://archive.is/v6FPj
Apart for the possibility that Carbuncle might get off, what really worries me is the amount of money necessary to bring this to court. “Justice is for the rich” is certainly shown to be true. Without crowdfunding support, this would have got nowhere and Carbuncle would have escaped censure entirely.
Is there any chance that Carmichael will leak the judgment before it is published officially?
🙂
@Lollysmum
Twitter back on again. Just Gremlims.
@Hoss Mackintosh
Camichael is history no matter the courts view on his lying. Not the point for me, winning lets all politicians in Scotland at least know that the power is in the hand of the electorate.
Why shouldn’t it be? You elect someone, find out he’s a lier then throw him out.. First rule in a new Scottish Constitution maybe 🙂
Goodnight.
I ain’t nae laywer, but the way I see it pannin oot is, one Judge comes oot fir Carmichael the other for the Orkney Four. Outcome, Carmichael keeps his seat. five years fae noo, Carmichael get’s elevated to the HOL for services rendered. Costs are split.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong and the bastard gets what he deserves.
@Gordon Hay
You need to do something about your bowels man. That Brit Nat intestinal fortitude isn’t working in your case.
Just had a wee peep @ Carmichael’s fundraiser, £8,340.
His cause seems less popular then the Orkney 4!
Is there a case, or indeed any desire among us to actually start a peoples fund for such situations arising in the future, as no doubt they will, we could have a pot already up & running just waiting on those lying unionist toads, it would also send a very strong message to them, the people have had enough & are fighting back..
3 questions
What time is the kick off
Can there be a replay
Who pays the gate receipts
The cynic in me tells me that Carbuncle will get away with it, no doubt on a spurious technicality. The British State is rotten to its core and the corruption runs deep.
Dear Rev ,
I write to request you indulge us with a clip o Wullie Rennie on Scot2015 tonight.
I wish I had the ability .
Like others above I have only just composed myself enough to type .
After the wee tense tattle on early posts we all need to join together wi’ a wee laugh.
WR insists on portraying himself a f@@£ing ejit , comedian , a top drawer howler !
“We need assurances from the Scottish GVt that there will be no more unforeseen or unpredicted occurrences”
Or words to that effect,
I accidentally deleted my recording in my outburst of laughter.
Neat editorial in the Torygraph, defending FOI.
https://archive.is/1cvqi#selection-488.4-16326.0
Possibly not too smart for Westminster to upset their largely tame media.
Rancid The Graun silly facial hair in chief says, they’re all the same now, SNP as corrupt as worst of them, Carmichael told a white lie, so what, SNP do it
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2015/dec/08/the-snp-is-settling-into-being-a-normal-westminster-party
Long winded SNP bad, mostly, and so
“But the case of Alistair Carmichael, last surviving Lib Dem MP in Scotland (Labour and the Tories have one each, too) is not. His anti–Sturgeon leak prompted a crowd–sourced “yes” camp legal case against him which is still in the courts, to my slight amazement. Here’s the defence against intolerance I offered at the time.
In all such cases voters, not election courts, should decide whether their MP has overstepped the mark. And people who have built themselves a glasshouse should go easy with the stones.”
Come back Libby Carrell, at least your lazy vote SLabour UKOK bullshit is much shorter.
Scottish politics
Alistair Carmichael ‘leaked Sturgeon memo thinking it was true’
Says rancid old Graun. It could save future Carmichael though, in court. Id use it if I was trying to keep him in office tomorrow.
Ignorance is NOT a defence in law, until it comes to the UKOK establishment that is.
regarding those pouncing on mr Hay,
You are actually beginning to convince me that we ARE too stupid.
Have you actually followed the story at all or noticed how the media works?
If the judgement goes against Carmichael there will undoubtedly be stories of the QCs bias.
Seems to me the keenness to shout “unionist troll!*!@£*&^%” is straight out of Salem.
“The law is old, untested and not clear therefore in my view exceptionally unlikely for costs to be awarded either way.”
@McHaggis69: The law isn’t that old – the Carmichael case was taken under section 106 of the Representation of the People Act 1983. Untested? Not really. The most recent case taken under the same section of the 1983 Act was the Woolas case in 2010; prior to that was the sordid Miranda Grell case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_Grell) which resulted in a criminal prosecution, fines and an order to pay the prosecution costs.
Rancid The Graun silly facial hair in chief says…
Michael White’s article is the usual mixture of weasely words, some initial flattery to succour you in and give the impression of even-handedness, banal observation, and then smear and innuendo.
His colonial colours fly all hours.
A2 Fly by night: Seems to me…
Seems to you absolutely nothing.
The Hay smear is an attempt to concoct a defence and a smear before judgement, which you are eager to promote.
As has ever been said – we win whatever the verdict, soon we will have fresh ammunition.
Re pressure put on the judges.
Whatever the outcome, surely if pressure is evident, it must come from a source & that source must be an individual initally. STRICTLY AGAINST THE LAW. Interesting, eh what?
@Lesley Anne
Note today that the MSM (Monstering Scotland Media) given Trump’s latest and surely fatal faux pas re Islamic immigrants and even after fully two years of using Trump’s antipathy to the Scottish Government over his Aberdeenshire golf course, are now referring to him as the friend of the SNP.
Such a morally bereft U turn that one really does fear for their collective sanity.
New word for the dictionary. Stop telling “Carmicheals”.
Wonder if it will be allowed in Westminster chamber.
Let’s not forget Malkie Boos , ” All politicians lie”
I caught part of an interview/ discussion on Rad Scot the other morning .Sounded like a legal guy talking about how it is not against the law to lie , it’s only against the Law to lie under oath etc
My only thought was that we are being prepared for Wed.
Having contributed and supported the O4 , I hope for the best .
free the Orkney 4
carmicheal is damaged goods regardless of the verdict
we have already won
tavish scot is crapping himself
ps rev, any chance of an opinion poll in the northern isles if carmicheal wins?
the result should be enough to send what remains of libdem support in the northern isles into melt down. hopefully the fall out will ensure rennie loses nef and gets his marching orders in strathmiglo..
ps, ming has already packed up shop in gateside, office closed and selt
i cant see the lib dems spending a million getting rennie elected either. that is not how the lib dems campaign
I don’t think that this was just about his (Carmichaels) ‘intention to undermine the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland and damage her Party in an imminent General Election’.
I would expand on that. Carmichael et al (probably Mundell, Clegg and Cameron) held back on releasing that memo until the time was right. Sat on it for over 9 weeks before deciding to publicise the lies. Released it when they realised, following the Leaders Debate, that Nicola Sturgeon was becoming extremely popular south of the border and feared that an SNP / Labour coalition could be on the cards. Just another example of Westminsters ‘manipulation and interference’ of the Electorate during a democratic election.
Whatever the case Carmichael is finished as far as Scotland is concerned and will head off to the HoLs. His reward for being the unwitting scapegoat. Unwitting in that they thought it would all blow over … be swept under the carpet … as per usual.
Whilst one Scot has shown himself to be an absolute disgrace, four others have done us all proud. I can’t begin to tell you HOW proud I feel for the four ordinary Scots who decided to stand up to Westminster corruption and for the thousands of people who have unstintingly supported them. The former won’t sleep tonight no doubt worried about the outcome of the Case and the possibility that they’ll be left to pay around £40,000 / £50,000 between them. Just to let them know once again that that won’t happen. Their supporters will dig deep and cover the costs. Have no fear about that.
O/T
The ‘BIG’ news, where I happen to be at the moment, is that Saudi has arranged a meeting in Riyadh of Leaders of ALL fighting factions in Syria including the Syrian Rebel Army. Turkey has been invited too of course. The ‘tale’ relating to this is that they are going to broker a ‘peace deal’. The ‘uninvited’ include Assad and the Kurds. I’m mentioning this because I notice that it hasn’t been posted on Wings and wonder if it has been reported in the UK at all? … !!!!
.., I’m hoping for a just verdict in the Carmichael case but I know it’s on a knife edge. If it goes agin’ the Orkney Four, then we must financially support them (again). It’s a sore time o’ year on the pennies front but they’ve put themselves in the firing line and we need to show our support in the most direct way we can ….a donation to their cause. I’m in for 20 quid.
Of course non of this answers the real topic of interest.
Did Nicola want another Tory government?
As this case has been mighty useful in diverting attention away from that question!
Still the one other thing the Nationalist camp has missed in your zeal to prosecute Carmicheal is this;
What’s sauce for the Goose…is sauce for the Gander.
As lets see;
Salmond and then Sturgeon for lying about non existent legal advice on an Indy Scotland’s prospects of getting in the EU.
Oh and the entire last election when the SNP claimed that Labour were signed up to £30 billions worth of cuts…
I wonder if we will see any unionist crowd funders to pursue actions in either of those cases?
OK, Stuart … we’ll take this real slow :-
1.) Nicola has stated on many occasions that she has never publically or privately said “she or the SNP” would prefer a Tory Government.
2.) Alex Salmond (or NS) never lied regarding legal advise over EU membership with respect to an Independent Scotland. That kite was flown and collapsed when AS put himself up for evaluation regarding the accusations.
3.) 30 Billon in cuts accusation by SNP (GE or SGE ?) …. got any references on that ? …. or just another fairy tale !!!
I don’t have the money but if they lose or otherwise still have to pay the 200k, I’ll figure something out to stick a hundred down to help them out.
Only because I can’t bear the idea that 4 people who have done the right thing could end up in massive debt because of this self-admitted lying scumbag.
It exposes just how ridiculous the law is that he isn’t denying any of the facts but even with that has the ability to argue against a conviction in law. Wrong. Just wrong.
Stuart the Fart: Did Nicola want another …
… idiot thinking no one notices he’s an ugly troll?
What a waste of bandwidth.
Rev Stu Campbell
“Folks, I think Gordon is referring to how the media will treat the decision…”
Ahhh,
If that’s true Gordon dont do it,
I tried irony on the internet once,
now look at me,
http://tinyurl.com/oo4jfec
Tory cuts to Welfare/NHS £30Billion. Labour signed up to them.
@Petra 1.33
The Saudi meeting with the Syrian rebels hasn’t been mentioned in UK as far as I know. It was in RT yesterday but not today.
Rather too awkward for our media to mention it but why would RT drop it?
Haven’t checked Aljazeera (Saudi partner in anti-Assad fight) or Press TV (Iranian).
Big news here today will be the Carmichael decision.
cearc
”
Just had a wee peep @ Carmichael’s fundraiser, £8,340.
His cause seems less popular than the Orkney 4!”
He has to know if the costs are split it will ruin him, meanwhile we’ll make sure the 4 are protected, so much for yer pals eh Ian?
Lollysmum 9.32pm WELL SAID!
Arthur Thomsom You too, agree!
Isn’t this a WIN/WIN?…If our Orkney Four win, Justice wins.
If Carmichael wins…Isn’t that another nail in the coffin for the unionists?
And I truly believe the people of Scotland will not let the Orknney Four struggle financialy, in fact the foodbanks will probably still be helped too!
Either way, Carmichael’s boat has sunk. And it’s a long chilly paddle out to the Orkney and Shetland Isles. Who is covering his legal costs?
(BTW Has Willie paid that £800,000 to Police Scotland yet?)
GOOD LUCK ORKNEY FOUR!!!
A2
“Seems to me the keenness to shout “unionist troll!*!@£*&^%” is straight out of Salem.”
While I don’t agree fully with you A2, I’ll admit there is a propensity to shoot first ask questions later, ON OCCASION.
Wow
so there I was sittin readin wings when the phone went,
Aa picked it up an it wis Michelle Mone makin a durrty phone call,
So she says “did ye see that photie oh me wi they two bookends”
Aa says “aye Aa saw it so whit”?
Shy says “Aa hid nuthin oan under that ermine”
An a thoucht “noo that hot… so hot …hot…hot… heat… smoke… burning… SMOKE ALARM
JESUS THE PORRIDGES BURNIN!!!
I agree with alot of the posts here last night.
Do you think this could be another ‘game changer’ moment? To add to the others, piling up?
It feels like it to me. Our case for Scottish Independence has always been strong. That case is getting stronger and stronger.
If the decision does not find in favour if the complainants then this will be the green light that anything goes.
It will in effect be the confirmation that there is no rule of law.
Oh “Stuart” you really must stop telling carmichaels, yer embarassing yersel.
My point of view is that Carmichael is a ball-less prick, who didn’t have guts to own up to his lies until he had no choice.
With luck the decision will go against him as morally it should, and Scotland will be a better place without that type of politian.
O/T – I see the tractor’s Brown & Darling are getting their rewards for screwing there country.
@John King 5.57
GAHHHH!
Jayzuz John. Gonnae no dae thaaat.
@ Mchaggis69 Having spent several days at the Court of Sessions ( electorial court )at the start & spoken with 2 of the Orkney 4, I would make a informed guess, they would know more than yourself of Court Costs.
Good Luck Orkney 4, we,re all behind You,s.
@Gordon Hay 8/12 9:29pm
I sympathise, Gordon. Sometimes my attempts at irony are so subtle even I don’t get it.
O/T links
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/08/oil-scotland-can-survive-without-it-sturgeon.html
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-morgan-stanley-moves-board-idUKKBN0TR2UZ20151208
http://www.thecanary.co/2015/12/07/national-express-throw-man-off-bus-because-fellow-passengers-felt-uncomfortable-with-a-muslim-onboard/
https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/george-osborne-snp-mps-are-%E2%80%98noisy-and-aggressive%E2%80%99
Untrustworthy Truss: The dishonest cover up that left farmers owed hundreds of millions of pounds
https://www.byline.com/column/22/article/648
Whatever the outcome the Orkney4 deserve eternal praise. Carmichael deserves eternal damnation.
O/T links
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/donald-trump-josh-earnest-disqualified-president-muslims/index.html
http://www.neonnettle.com/sphere/456–former-cuban-leader-fidel-castro-says-israel-us-created-isis-
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/07122015/methane-emissions-texas-fracking-zone-90-higher-epa-estimate
http://nicholaswilson.com/bbc-bilderberg-and-hsbc-secrets-and-lies/
https://www.rt.com/uk/325135-veterans-medals-discarded-syria/
i don’t know if any of the orkney4 read wings but I imagine that it has been a sleepless night for you all.
I would like to echo the comments of others here and wish you good luck, regardless of the outcome, you are the real winners,
To have the balls to take on the establishment and put your money where your mouth is, is an extraordinary feat by extraordinary people which will be remembered long after Carmicheal fades into obscurity.
if you have to bear the costs, find out the total and re-launch your crowd funder. I will not only contribute, I will post a link to it on every social media platform, all day and everyday until it is met.
The people of Scotland are with you, today and always
I am surprised at the number of people who actually expect “Justice” in this case. If there is any “Justice”, Carmichael will lose.
But, c’mon, honestly; when did the establishment ever fail to look after its own?
However; as someone else has pointed out, it is a win-win situation for those of an independent bent.
Morning all, I posted 2 lots of links which will appear later hopefully.
Picked this up from twitter, anyone with a nervous disposition look away now especially if you are in the middle of breakfast
Rejects have no shame!
https://twitter.com/AuldGrannie/status/674413910926168064
Whatever the outcome of the Carmichael case, and I’m afraid not for one minute do I believe the Scottish justiciary will annoy the Westminster establishment by finding him guilty, it aint working on the streets.
All the attempted smears by the unionist politicians, and their media allies, are having absolutely no effect on the strength of the support for the S.N.P. In fact the only newsworthy item mentioned on the doorstep this week, is the palpable anger at Westminster’s decision to go to war in Syria.
So no matter what we hear this morning, more and more people are realising the that Westminster do not have Scotland’s best interests at heart, and sooner, rather than later, we will vote to become an independent country.
Whatever the result THE PEOPLE WIN!
Either our “servants” are empowered to blatantly lie and mislead the people as intended by our unwritten constitution backed up by their “laws”.
Or the law will prove that Westminster must have some moral compass even if a gun has to be held to their heads.
Best of luck to the Orkney four and thank you all for allowing us all to take part in this game changing experience. Whatever the result the people have win, thanks to you and all the contributors.
Carmichael, Brown, Darling , Blair, Camrron, Osbourne and the rest of the Unionist liars in Westminster/HoL should all be in jail for the damage they have done in the World.
At least the liars will know they can end up in Court. If the Courts do not act the People will.
Lord Keene -Cameron’s stooge – claiming Westminster Law is Sovereign over Scotland. Thst is not true. In Scotland under Scottish Law the people are Sovereign. Scotland was guaranteed a separate Legal system forever. Unless the two Parliaments agreed term. They haven’t. To change this breaks up the Union. Lord Kerne is lying.
Crowdfund against the lying Press. Where is the Chilcot Agreement.
O/T
BBC Radio Scotland fresh from renewed attack on Derek Mackay, Call Kaye is discussing Trump but let’s not forget that it was Labour’s Jack McConnell who first feted Donald Trump.
From Scotsman 13 May 2006
AS JACK McConnell strode into the 58-storey Trump Tower on New York’s Fifth Avenue last October, he would have been forgiven for thinking how well things were going. Awaiting him was the building’s billionaire owner, who had some good news in store.
Donald Trump wanted to build a new golf course in Scotland: a spectacular multi-million pound development on a pristine stretch of Aberdeenshire beach. McConnell and Trump enjoyed a lunch of shrimps and steak. Along with a photo opportunity, at which Trump made favourable noises about investing in Scotland, it completed a satisfactory few hours for the First Minister.
And on 23 April 2006
Under Freedom of Information legislation, Scotland on Sunday obtained documents from Scottish Enterprise (SE) revealing the government’s close working relationship with Trump.
The billionaire’s golf company was lavished with attention. Two memos released by SE show that – at a cost of £4,800 to the public purse – the agency paid for two helicopter tours of Scotland, taking in the golf course site, as they showed off the country to their deep-pocketed American friends. A further e-mail shows they offered to meet the £40,000-£50,000 cost of a feasibility study into the Menie Links site. Trump’s people were impressed, “raving” in August last year about the way enterprise agency officials were courting them
At the BBC, we are determined to be impartial and fair in our coverage and to bring a range of views to our audiences. Please be assured that bias plays no part in our reporting. We place the highest value on accuracy and impartiality within our own journalism and rigorous editorial standards are applied across all of our output.
Thank you, once again, for taking the time to contact us.
Kind regards
Stuart Webb
BBC Complaints
Part of there reply to me.Thought you would all like to see
@ Nana
Oh deary deary dear! If that is true then SLab are in even deeper dooby than I thought possible.
The same Magrit that ran away after the GE result was called!
Whatever happens today about the Carmichael verdict, there will be only one winner. The people of Scotland have given a verdict to politicians, lie to us and you may wind up in court! Scotland will be stronger. If the establishment rigs the verdict, the unionists are finished, if Carmichael faces his due penalty the unionists are finished.
“At the BBC, we are determined to be impartial and fair in our coverage…”
The rest of the sentence he didn’t give you goes:
… but we are trapped culturally in a UK-Royal mentality, and in any event, we have neither duty nor mandate to serve Scotland on equal terms to England.
Trump said, ‘Muslims should be banned from the US – until our reps understand what the hell is happening’ . The Reps know what is happening only to well they have been banning people for the last hundred years. They have been killing, maiming and banning Muslims and others for the last hundred years.
RGU recently awarded an Honorary Degree to Heyward ex BP the worst Company in economic history. An total insult. RGU should be censored. The Russian were going to put him in jail for fraud.
Osbourne is taxing the Oil sector at 75%. Thousands are losing their jobs. More Oil & Gas has to be imported putting up the deficit and the debt. Losing Scotland/UK £Billions.
A bit o/t, but referring to a previous post about Lord Janner being unfit to face trial;
If I had been claiming a disability benefit for years, but was found to be fit for work, surely I’d be forced to pay it all back. Shouldn’t this old ( alleged ) perv be made to repay all the cash he has taken from the hol?
Or will this be categorized as “well, he’s establishment, so it’s just a bit of mischief”.
I hope I’m wrong, but that’s what I fear will also be the outcome of the Carbuncle trial.
Osbourne is taxing the Oil sector at 75%. Thousands are losing their jobs. More Oil & Gas has to be imported putting up the deficit and the debt. Losing Scotland/UK £Billions.
Westminster’s also shut down Scotland’s renewable industry. A UKOK double whammy.
If you were planning a future Scottish energy industry transition from hydrocarbon to renewable energy, you’d shut it all down?
Misquote Lord Foulkes, toryboy world’s doing it deliberately.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c2258b4-3045-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3toZHa3ey
“At the BBC, we are determined to be impartial and fair in our coverage…” and endeavour to our utmost to make sure that Labour, the Conservatives and even that numpty Willie Rennie get equal time to have a pop at those SNP bastairts.
Sinky,
Nice quotes, well found.
Nana,
So SLab are making a clear break from tory policy by not going for new young blood, then!
Santa’s at Trump Golf Development. £10
All Muslims welcome. Just not the proprietor. Could be smuggled in, as an illegal immigrant in a Santa suit. Flying in the Jet might be a give away. Might have to use a sleigh. All mouth and no action.
While we await Carmichael’s slap on the wrist – a movie for festive time: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2NE
@Nana 8.55
Well isn’t Kezia a wee daftie , if they get elected they will want to ‘help’ her. Lucky if she lasts 3 months as they have so little introspection that will think that she is so awful that anyone could do better. Even them. ????
I guess this will be Westminsters next wheeze for sharing costs.
http://www.gizmag.com/thames-tideway-tunnel/40800/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=92d54d64b5-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-92d54d64b5-90414981
Some more reading, with affection for Wingers:
http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2Cm
http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2Ha
Courier are saying he has been cleared. Official announcement at 10.30
While keeping my fingers crossed that The Orkney 4 win the case I shall be pleasantly surprised if they win.
On the matter of costs, given the publicity given this case and the number of people who have been following it it would be interesting if we could see a detailed breakdown of the final bill for costs showing in detail where and to whom the money went.
It would be a useful illustration of just why the achievemnt of justice is so expensive.
Should, at the end of the day, The 4 need more funds I shall be happy to chip in.
The Herald. Carmichael cleared.
Let’s make sure the Orknet Four get the funds and sen d message out to all MPs that such behaviour can and will be challenged in future.
Is there a more politically corrupt State than the UK on this planet.
Red tory SLab unionist twitterers not discussing socialist workers Brown and the Flipper taking seats on Morgan Stanley board, at all.
Its a pity really as it would be interesting to hear what they think of theor guys getting big jobs like these at big banks, what Crash and the Flipper might be bringing to the Morgan Stanley board etc
https://twitter.com/DrScottThinks
Not a peep.
https://twitter.com/jruddy99
Zip
https://twitter.com/kevverage
Blue tory unionist and self proclaimed fiscal genius/crystal ball reader, not a mention. Its just another day of SNP bad, and evil Trump. Its maybe just me but Trump hasn’t actually killed anyone, yet.
Still we wait for Chilcott.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-iraq-war-inquiry-has-finally-received-responses-from-the-people-it-criticises-10492912.html
Establishment 1 – People Nil
Who would have expected it – disgraceful.
Carmichael cleared. The Establishment is above the law. It was never in doubt. Forget justice ; forget democracy ; forget Unionist politicians telling the truth. Forget the judiciary.
Know your place in UK/North Korea.
Vote SNP/SNP.
It is now official, unionist politicians are permitted by Law to lie to the public, what a sad state of affairs.
SNP x 2 May 2016.
I see the barsteward has been cleared
Carmichael cleared – Course of justice perverted – Establishment looks after its own.
Carmichael has no class.
Feel sorry for the people of the Islands now stuck with this untrustworthy establishment rep.
But no real surprise state won; but it was a real wheeze how they dragged it out to look like it was on a knife edge though.
Good on ye Blighty ! Classy as always.
@Gordon Hay says: 8 December, 2015 at 9:10 pm:
“We will also find out whether Lord Matthews is a fine example of the independence of the judiciary or simply another SNP stooge.”
WHIT!!
The accused has admitted lying.
The Accused therefore agrees he DID NOT do so in error but as a deliberate act.
All the Judges have to decide is not that a deliberate lie was told but only what the accused person’s motive was.
There seems no doubt that the accused hoped to gain from that admitted deliberate lie.
The accused is not the only one on trial today. So are the judges, the independent Scottish legal system and the United Kingdom.
Justice should not only be done but must be seen to be done.
If it cannot be seen to hold a self confessed liar to account then the rule of law is the ultimate loser as will be the United Kingdom’s future, a future that is already looking increasingly bleak.
Carmichael cleared. The ‘establishment’ clearly doing what they are told. So now we have it confirmed, that within this undemocratic and unwanted ‘union’ with England, it is perfectly legal and acceptable behaviour for a UK Government cabinet minister, such as Carmichael, to intentionally lie and smear the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland for personal political gain.
What a joke Westminster is.
Carmichael leaves with nothing. Mr. zero personal integrity. He should now do the honourable thing (which he should have done in the first place) and resign, to re-stand for his seat.
Make sure the Orkney four are fully funded for any costs, if you can help in any way.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/story
Election of Carmichael not ruled invalid, but second part of summary should haunt him:
“Thus on the basis of all the evidence led before us we are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that another purpose underlying the false statement was self-protection (a self-protection extending to Mr Roddin, provided that neither of them could be identified). Such self-protection would avoid attracting critical comment, losing esteem in the public eye, and being the subject of any disciplinary consequences, all at a very inconvenient time during the lead-up to the election. Such self-protection would avoid his presenting as a less attractive electoral candidate for the voters in Orkney and Shetland.”
No rights, No justice, No voice, No Union
Worst of it is, the cretins ugly mug will be everywhere via BBC / STV exaltations of his innocence and bet they’ll even clap in the HoC.
Dear god Scotland we could have escaped all this.
Shocking, just shocking.
Nothing more I can say, apart from we have at two tier judicial system, when the haves are above the law and have not’s are not.
sorry folks, but….
Fuuuuuuuck
So its official lying is ok, vote uk ok! That’s the end of this terrible, unequal union. Vote Snp,Snp.
What smear are we talking about?….that in an unguarded moment she expressed what she and every other SNP official with an iota of strategic insight knew for a an uncontravertible truth…that the best way to accelerate indyref2 was to have SNP win a landslide in Scotland and the Tories to get a slim majority in UK.
Now the civil servant may have made it up and Carmichael may have lied about being the source of the leak but the reality is there was no smear…IT IS EXACTLY WHAT SHE THOUGHT!!
http://news.channel4.com/election2015/04/05/update-931/
Carmichael Breaks no UK electoral law? There is no electoral then.
Not unexpected.
Right then! So those people think its peachy to lie to and manipulate the public? Its just politics?
Perhaps the people will have something to say about that in May. Clean the whole rotting mess out of Holyrood and take our system of politics back from these shysters. Root and branch P45s all round.
If they have no ethics or moral compass and the law won’t punish them, then the people should offer their own judgement at the ballot.
As for Carmichael? For the four years he has left in office, I hope it feels like the longest four years in history as far as he is concerned. I’d like him to know that HE was responsible for the demise of his party and all those who sought to profit from his seedy little conspiracy.
I think we already know what sort of country we live in.
As I understand the act under which the case was brought, while “personal” lies are a bit iffy, “political” lies are specifically permitted, hence all that hair-splitting and sophistry in court.
To me, it speaks volumes about the insularity of our MPs that they can debate and pass an act that specifically gives them approval to lie to and mislead their constituents, and it doesn’t seem to occur to them that the public may think this is wrong. Or maybe they just don’t give a sight (damn that spell check).
@Mchaggis69 says: 8 December, 2015 at 9:21 pm:
” … Perhaps you’d care to attempt an answer to my query? I fail to see how foodbanks benefit as described but if someone could enlighten me I’d be obliged.”
In such cases, Mchaggis69, it is customary for the accused, if found guilty, to bear the accusers costs.
In which case the donated funds go to the food banks as pledged.
Just watch how BBC go out and source public opinion on the result.
They’ll be everywhere, you wont be able to move …. aye for unionist politicos that is – odds on its wee Mundell first?
Red tory joy!
John Ruddy ?@jruddy99 9m9 minutes ago
And you know whats even better? The Nats cant claim bias, because one of the judges was an SNP activist.
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This decision just ticks off another box in the reasons why we want to end this Union.
And Wullie Rennie will have the cheek to push for the resignation of Derek Mackay over repairs to the Forth Road Bridge.
SNP/SNP
I can almost hear the cheering in the house of reprobates when Carmichael next appears.
Let’s see how many lib dems will be laughing at next year’s election. Wipe them out.
@dunderheid
Apt name is yer last name puddin ?
FOREKNOWLEDGE:
Ar 10:20am
Rebecca Gray of The Herald reports Carmichael is “understood” to have been “cleared by judges” TEN MINUTES before the official announcement?
People on their website already asking how can The Herald know the decision before the official publication time.
Absolutely STINKS!
The real test is whether or not he will stand next general election, and if so, how many will vote for him.
PS: So much for the Unionist claim one judge is an SNP-voter and therefore lethally biased – the usual smear and black propaganda.
There is a silver lining of sorts to Carmichael’s reprieve until the next election.
Every time that lying scumbag appears on the media it will be an ongoing reminder of exactly what Unionism is and what their Union stands for. He will be an ongoing advert for need for change.
In the short term, we must ensure the Orkney Four suffer no financial hardship – they did what they did for all of us.
Carmichael is damaged goods, him lingering on wont do the unionists an iota of good.
Just a thought but in Scots law does ‘not proven’ mean he has not been cleared.
Carmichael
Oh coming through now, yup, cleared. But no full explanation as yet.
Well we need to hope they get rid of all the Lib dems up there in May. That has to be the next move.
His own side will then blame him for their downfall.
It just shows how corrupt Westminster is, especially when it comes to Scotland. We cannot even get our own judges on side.
Hmm.
They just wrote the death warrant for the union!
“Thus on the basis of all the evidence led before us we are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that another purpose underlying the false statement was self-protection (a self-protection extending to Mr Roddin, provided that neither of them could be identified). Such self-protection would avoid attracting critical comment, losing esteem in the public eye, and being the subject of any disciplinary consequences, all at a very inconvenient time during the lead-up to the election. Such self-protection would avoid his presenting as a less attractive electoral candidate for the voters in Orkney and Shetland.”
This is surely the nub of the case, one which their lordships highlight and then proceed to ignore by claiming that it is not proven beyond reasonable doubt, even though they state it was beyond doubt.
Sadly it is a result that is both inevitable and sadly damaging for democracy
One rule for them and one rule for us. It’s amazing that only the rich and powerful seem to escape justice on technicalities on a regular basis. Have the judges been leaned on? Who knows? It does seem like Camp Zeist all over again. Let down by the judges.
Another sad day for Scottish justice. When Scotland becomes independent, surely a priority must be to sort out this corrupt legal system?
Schrödinger’s cat says: 8:49 am
Well said,
Carmichael is a dead man walking, either way!
Wee Stuart before you commented you were both stupid and smart until you started typing……..
Am I alone in thinking had Carmichael been in the SNP he would’ve been hung, drawn and quartered long before now.
Westminster deserves him, I feel for his constituents though.
That verdict just proves in my mind that Cameron and Fluffy were in on it.
I will be donating to the Orkney 4 costs
What a dreadful day for the Scottish Justice system. I feel really sad for what my country has become in this Union
My old law professor told me that there 3 different elements to a lie ;
1.A lie communicates some information
2.A lie is intended to deceive or milead.
3.A liar believes that what they say is not true.
According to this verdict ,none of the above existed, except that the man himself has publicly acknowledged that they do!!
The Rev is right with his headline.We exist in two different countries.
Orkney 4. We are with you to the end.
As for the law,it is an ass. A unionist ass.
“The petitioners failed to provide enough evidence”?! In other words, we can see where you’re coming from, there’s quite a lot here, but we can still tell you to gtf. In fact we’d still tell you to gtf if you provided twice as much evidence because we can still say “failed to provide enough evidence”, however much evidence you provide.
The Law was made to keep the status quo and it’s sure doing that.
Any word on the costs being awarded?
Bad time of year and a lot out there needing help, but if you have even a quid to spare, I think these folks would appreciate the help.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
Look on the bright side folks. This is now rock-solid proof that unionist politicians lie with impunity.
That should be useful in indyref2 to counter the ‘they wouldn’t be allowed to lie about that’ brigade.
Ffs.
I’m off to live in Pyongyang, even if I have to fight my way in.
@Macart
Donated and will do so again next week.
If the law won’t do it then WE, the people, will do it.
This is not the kind of country anyone (and I include Unionists in this) should want or remotely endorse; a country where you can lie through your teeth to undermine democracy and find that the law is on your side.
Hey NO voter – is this the kind of country you want? Your MP can lie to you and the law will support them? Is that REALLY the kind of country you want to live in? REALLY?
It simply is not good enough a country for me.
Orkney Four – right behind you. You brave people will get the funds needed so don’t worry yourselves. This action must be a reality check for the Establishment who now can see that we have the means and the will to take them on – something we were never able to do before.
Come on people, I know Christmas is coming but we need to chuck money into the fund:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
SNP x 2 SE2016.
IndyRef#2 coming sooner to a ballot box near you.
@dakk, 10.59
To quote from Braveheart “Hold. Hold.”
In a nutshell, these “judges” say because Carmichael did not EXPRESSLY utter “I regard the practice of leaking confidential information as dishonest and morally reprehensible” but merely IMPLIED it by claiming he was unaware of the memo, he did not falsely hold himself out to the public to be honest and trustworthy when, in fact, he wasn’t.
To reach this patently absurd conclusion requires a mental contortion of such magnitude that it literally takes the breath away.
It is self-evident that bt making a false statement that he was unaware of the memo, Carmichael DID hold himself out to be honest and trustworthy when, in fact, he was not.
It is simply impossible to explain this baffling “judgement” as anything other than a purely politically-motivated action, devoid of any logic or morality.
Absolutely disgraceful.
Went to make a further donation and very encouraged to see how many people have contributed to the fund since the decision came out.
I know it’s an expensive time of year but we have to rally round. Firstly to support the petitioners and secondly to show the media that we are united .
A Pyrrhic Victory if there ever was one.
We are still waiting for the verdict of the separate WM Inquiry but it will no doubt consist of another bucket of whitewash.
That notwithstanding Carmichael is a busted flush as will be his O&S MSP compatriots next May.
What’s the bet that Carmichael disappears from the face of the earth for the duration of the campaign for Holyrood.
Well now we have it official, there’s a “Liar’s Charter” in connection with politicians.
They can and do lie without fear of being held to account.
We can now look any politician in the eye and call them a liar bacause it’s something they all do as we’ve heard.
The law has given its verdict, you may lie without recrimination.
I have given generously to the Orkney 4′ BUT
Should we not hear about costs first before all going on another donations blitz?
I will double my contribution if needed – but let’s wait and see what happens on that?
Visit ‘Diary of Injustice’ site by Peter Cherbi to see the true state of Scots legal system. Shameful verdict. I have contributed again to Orkney 4 site
I don’t want to hear the phrase “Scottish Justice”ever again. Sure, there have been many verdicts over the years which have later been rescinded, but it’s the recent examples of first Coulson and now Carmichael admitting lying, and getting away with it. As macart says earlier, it’s not just that justice is done, it has to be seen to be done. With this decision today, I’m afraid they, the judges, have made a rod, not only for their own back, for for our now irritrievably damaged system.
What reasonable person is now going to accept a Scottish court’s verdict, on any subject, when guilty people, by their own admission, walk free.
This is a dreadful day for Scotland, and its people, and I am struggling to control my anger, as once again the establishment are rubbing our noses in the dirt.
On the first issue, the court observed that Carmichael had told a “blatant lie”…..
Lady Paton said: “There is no dispute that the words ‘I told you the first I became aware of this, and this is already on public record, was when I received a phone call on Friday (3rd April)afternoon from a journalist making me aware of it’ constituted a false statement of fact, in other words, a lie.
On the second issue, the judges were satisfied that it had been proved beyond reasonable doubt that Carmicheal made the false statement of fact “for the purpose of affecting (positively) his own return at the election”.
However, on the matter of whether the lie could properly be characterised as a false statement of fact “in relation to Carmicheals personal character or conduct”, the judges were left with a reasonable doubt.
“It is of the essence of section 106 that it does not apply to lies in general: it applies only to lies in relation to the personal character or conduct of a candidate made before or during an election for the purpose of affecting that candidate’s return,” Lady Paton said.
Lady Paton said: “As Carmicheal said in evidence, he wanted public attention to remain focused on that important political message, rather than becoming side-tracked by revelations that it had been he and his special adviser Mr Roddin who had leaked the memo to the Daily Telegraph. In his view, if public attention remained focused on that political message, voters who had anxieties about Scottish independence might find voting for the SNP a less attractive prospect…The inescapable inference, in our opinion, is that if the SNP became a less attractive prospect, the first respondent’s chances of a comfortable majority in what had become a ‘two-horse race’ in Orkney and Shetland would be enhanced.”
Furthermore, the judges considered that the evidence established that there was another purpose underlying the false statement, namely a desire not to be identified as being involved in the leak.
“Thus on the basis of all the evidence led before us we are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that another purpose underlying the false statement was self-protection (a self-protection extending to Mr Roddin, provided that neither of them could be identified). Such self-protection would avoid attracting critical comment, losing esteem in the public eye, and being the subject of any disciplinary consequences, all at a very inconvenient time during the lead-up to the election. Such self-protection would avoid his presenting as a less attractive electoral candidate for the voters in Orkney and Shetland.”
so should the “blatent” liar of Orkney and Shetland ever again utter a word publicly, he should be immediately asked to clarify whether his statement is a political or a personal lie.
carmicheal may have won the case, but he didn’t get away with this, his credibility is shot to pieces and this grubby charactaristics will be seen as a libdem policy, answerable by all libdems
I was always expecting something cynical but this is beyond cynical.
It is right up there with the Queen of Heart’s in Alice’s Adventures
in Wonderland: “Sentence first, verdict afterwards!”
They must believe we are literally incapable of independent reason.
Gus 1940
‘What’s the bet Carmichael disappears from the face of the earth….’
Maybe Broon,or Darling will get him a directorship in Pimco,or Morgan Stanley.
um, could wullie rennie clarify whether his last statement was a “blatent” political or personal lie? Is lying an inherent quality one looks for in a libdem candidate and will lying be covered in the libdem manifesto for holyrood 2016?
schrodingers cat at 11:41am
“so should the ‘blatant’ liar of Orkney and Shetland ever again utter a word publicly, he should be immediately asked to clarify whether his statement is a political or a personal lie.”
NOT just Carmichael. The same applies to ANY politician.
How can you be sure you are not being told a pack of lies by someone who knows that, if they are caught, all they have to do is claim their lie was “political” and thereby escape punishment?
This decision brings into question whether there is any point in voting for ANY politician, ever again, as long as this “law” is left as it stands.
As someone above rightly says politicians now have a Charter to lie to their electorates with complete immunity, endorsed by the courts.
@ Cadogan Enright
“Should we not hear about costs first before all going on another donations blitz?
I will double my contribution if needed – but let’s wait and see what happens on that?”
Any (hopefully) any excess funds will go to foodbanks which the Petitioners have always stated so there is no need to hold back now; there is no need to whithold any payment to the fund, no need to wait.
The Petitioners have already stated that they need to raise £208k by Christmas. Let’s get them the money.
We CANNOT let these four brave people down. They stood up for ALL of us. They stood up and took on the Establishment in the Establishment’s own backyard–the Scottish Courts. We all knew it was unlikely to be a fair fight and so it has proved to be.
Dig deep people. We must ALSO demonstrate to the Corporate Media (aka the British Unionist Media) that we are united in this, that we CAN and WILL take them on again in a court of law if need be.
This action by the Orkney Four is a ‘Beacon for Democracy’ in our country. We simply CANNOT let them down for to do so we will be letting ourselves down.
Chip in folks:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
And if our courts won’t clean up our electoral system then WE, The People, must do it in May 2016.
2 x SNP SE2016
O/T links now appearing at 8.35 & 8.39
@Nana
Donations
Same here Nana. I can’t give much these days, but whatever little we can spare. 🙂
This result will do Carmichael and his party no good. Well done to the Orkney 4. Have chipped in.
Rev. Stuart.
You are without
a doubt the best political journalist in Scotland. No publication would allow you to expose the wrongdoing against Scotland by Westminister’s elites. Not allowing that to stop you you start up the most widely read political blog in Scotland and get on with the job.
Scottish Hero.
“I don’t think the judges are “chosing” a verdict but coming to a verdict after analysing legislation and witness statements.”
Of course they are. The law is ambiguous by everyone’s agreement. Their choice as to how to interpret it is theirs and theirs alone.
Not guilty surprise surprise,what did anyone expect when the Scottish legal system is run and controlled by british unionists.If you think im talking shite,i give you Lockerbie as exibit A.
Wonder what the Law Society for Scotland thinks of all this.
Shouldn’t they consider all the facts & possibly deem Catmichael unfit to practice law & have him thrown out.
Unionist liars protected by the establishment, and they dont give a xxxx whether we know it or not. Time to get shot of these scum.
A man is never more truthful than when he acknowledges himself a liar.
Mark Twain
Tony O’Neil @ 3.34
The case was not tried under Scots Law. It was tried under the Representation of the People Act which is a UK-wide law applying to all matters to do with elections.
The judges were Scottish and the case they were hearing was held in Scotland because the case related to a Scottish constituency but the law they against which the evidence was judged is a UK-wide law.
I’ve donated, mainly as a defiant gesture, but also to help provide a figure which will shock some of the MSM ( mainly sassenach media ) into comment. Any future petitioners – and there will be more – must be assured we will back them.
I never truly expected a positive outcome. Carmichael’s smear against the First Minister, and therefore the SNP, did affect the opinion of some voters, many of whom vote for a party rather than a personality – Orkney and Shetland is a fine example of that!
SNPSNP
There is no justice,
There never has been real justice,
There will never, ever be real justice,
until-we break away from these evil westminster vampiric excuses for human beings of the British establishment.
Not surprised at the result really.
I think “cleared” is optimistic spin by the Unionist side. Not proven looks a more accurate assessment of what the judges have said. It doesn’t make pretty reading for Carmichael.
anyone know the final cost of investigating carmichaels little fib ? and will this be recovered from any money he receives in compensation for this slur on his unblemished character,i believe he should be held responsible as he obstructed the inquiry by omission (ie) the truth as to the source of the story in the Telegraph , just a thought
Brown and Darling have got nice new jobs with the very bankers who caused the crash.
Which proves that capitalism corrupts.
Do you really want an ‘independent’ capitalist Scotland? It wouldn’t be good for any of us.
The answer to Brown and Darling is not separation, but unity, to defeat the b******s.