Scottish independence referendum, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


Time for reflection

Posted on April 08, 2013 by

In the world of journalism, being second to a story carries certain advantages. The Sunday Herald scored a high-profile exclusive with its list of “Better Together” donators yesterday, but only told half the tale. Keen-eyed cyber-sleuths immediately started digging, and came up with some troubling information about by far the biggest contributor to the No camp’s fighting fund, excellently and concisely detailed here by Michael Gray of National Collective.

You’d imagine, then, that the likes of the Scotsman – with the advantage of an extra 24 hours to do some investigating and with all the leads already conveniently found and collected together for them – would have come up with some pretty interesting in-depth analysis on the subject, especially given how keen it usually is to look into anyone who financially backs the nationalist side.

(Not to mention the golden opportunity to get one over on its rival’s big exclusive by pointing out what they missed in their haste to be first.)

vitol

Oh well.

Despite the full day’s extra reporting time, the article (cache link) contains not a single mention of the numerous controversies surrounding Ian Taylor. Instead it somehow manages to spin the story as “pressure” on the Yes campaign – under a headline which implies that it, rather than the Unionist side, is the one which has received some ethically-questionable donations.

(You need to get quite a way into the piece before you find out that the “£1.1m” figure is in fact the sum received so far by “Better Together”, half of it from Mr Taylor.)

There’s not a word about Taylor’s extensive connections with criminal activity and tax avoidance – just lots of glowing quotes about how much he loves Alistair Darling – and the article also makes a none-too-subtle attempt to sow division in the Yes camp by speculating about whether the SNP has handed over the £2m it received in two big donations in 2011 to Yes Scotland – despite the fact that both were made to the party rather than to the independence campaign specifically.

(There’s no similar questioning of whether any large contributions made to the Conservative or Labour parties in recent years have been channelled into the “Better Together” coffers. Indeed, in the case of the No camp, the lack of political contributions is portrayed as a positive, with campaign director Blair McDougall effusing “We have not received a penny from political parties. Every penny we have raised, we have raised ourselves, from supporters of our cause.”)

Only in the world of the Scottish mainstream media can the No campaign receiving a huge donation from a man linked to Serbian war criminals, Saddam Hussein and massive tax avoidance be translated into “pressure” on the Yes campaign. The Scotsman is abandoning all pretence of impartial and balanced coverage almost as fast as its readers are abandoning it.

We can’t help but ponder whether the two might be connected.

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52 to “Time for reflection”

  1. Graham Anderson says:

    The SoS swastika was smoke and mirrors to distract from their top donors connection to Serbian war criminals. On any other day this would have been the top news story and could easily have torpedoed their campaign. It may still yet do a lot of damage if it breaks outside of independent media.
    Also, I wonder how many lib dems and labourites are happy to know they are in bed with criminals?

  2. Tattie-boggle says:

    TREASON:
    The betrayal of one’s own country by waging war against it or by consciously or purposely acting to aid its enemies.

  3. scotchwoman says:

    There’s a good comment on another site this morning which suggests that WE are also the media. I don’t know how it’s done but other readers of this site must be more than capable of helping the rest of us get the WoS site (and others) viewed more widely.
    Where is the website that will tell us how to use links, websites, blogs, twitter etc to spread the word? All suggestions welcome.
    Main issue is getting information to undecideds and beyond the already supportive audience circulating around the pro-YES sites (myself included!).  

  4. mutterings says:

    Thanks for the cached link. I am going to block the Scotsman and the Herald from my computer network so that we cannot inadvertently click though.

  5. Seasick Dave says:

    Even the use of the word ‘gifts’ is intended to have negative connotations.
     
    Every day that goes by, it becomes clearer and clearer why we need independence. Those in power in Westminster and their media supporters in Scotland, by their every action, lay bare their attitude to Scotland and its people.
     
    I think that we are very close to the tipping point.
     
    There is no requirement to get rattled by these people or their articles of propaganda; just let them carry on and the people of Scotland will come to their own conclusions.

  6. Bob Howie says:

    A man linked to war criminals and Tax avoidance, linked to criminals who swindle the tax payer by diddling the expenses and ensure they get tax cuts for themselves, I would say he is in good company and neither Labour or the Con-Dems could in fact, condemn him!!

  7. rabb says:

    I really do despair.
     
    The no campaign are strutting round the MSM with impunity whilst we are portrayed as Nazis. Not one newspaper has questioned their main source of funds nor ever likely to.

    This is the establishment with an entirely complicit media now seriously beginning to tighten the noose on open honest debate.

    The tories will all be raising a glass to their Labour lapdogs who are carrying out their dirty work for them (As a historical Labour voter I find that extremely hard to stomach!).

    Ladies & Gents, we must now accept that there will be no balance to the independence debate. The facts will not see the light of day via the main stream media.

    We are on our own. I urge everyone of you who are serious about independence to join your local Yes group and get the message out to the people on the street.

    Perhaps we also need to look to our wealthier supporters and ask them to dig deep once more with the view to starting our own Metro type free newspaper that can be left on buses, trains, shopping centres etc?

  8. rabb says:

    scotchwoman says:
    8 April, 2013 at 9:55 am

    There’s a good comment on another site this morning which suggests that WE are also the media. I don’t know how it’s done but other readers of this site must be more than capable of helping the rest of us get the WoS site (and others) viewed more widely.
    Where is the website that will tell us how to use links, websites, blogs, twitter etc to spread the word? All suggestions welcome.
    Main issue is getting information to undecideds and beyond the already supportive audience circulating around the pro-YES sites (myself included!).
     
    We can’t rely on the internet alone. In Glasgow alone there’s approximately 52% of residents with no access to the internet (or there abouts). The internet is a good start though.

    There must be someone who has experience with printed media? Perhaps a free paper we can distribute with the aid of funding from our wealthier benefactors?

  9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The SoS swastika was smoke and mirrors to distract from their top donors connection to Serbian war criminals. On any other day this would have been the top news story and could easily have torpedoed their campaign.”

    I’m not sure that’s true, since the Herald piece didn’t mention any of Taylor’s dodgy connections.

  10. Cath says:

    “You’d imagine, then, that the likes of the Scotsman – with the advantage of an extra 24 hours to do some investigating and with all the leads already conveniently found and collected together for them – would have come up with some pretty interesting in-depth analysis on the subject”
     
    Aye, good one.

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Thanks for the cached link.”

    I can’t promise to keep doing them, as they’re a total pain in the backside, but I’ll try. Swastikagate pushed me over the edge with regard to tolerating giving them hits.

  12. BeamMeUpScotty says:

    Lewis has much to answer for.I believe that Darling,Taylor and Brian Wilson all have residences there and share business connections in the islands.All good chums together,in fact,almost certainly better together.

  13. annie says:

    The SNP are already fundraising for the purpose of producing a Newspaper to go to every house in Scotland – not sure if it will be a one off or a monthly just donate to the referendum campaign – you can always indicate donation for sole purpose of newspaper rather than anything else if your concerned about donating to SNP.

  14. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    So here we have an individual, by some accounts a mate of Cameron, bunging money into a referendum when he does not live in that country, and his company Vitol has a long history of UN sanctions breaking, bribing murderous dictators, tax evasion and being prosecuted in the USA.
     
    http://www.law360.com/articles/40637/vitol-agrees-to-pay-17-5m-in-oil-for-food-case
     
    Law360, New York (November 20, 2007, 12:00 AM ET) — Swiss oil company Vitol SA on Tuesday pleaded guilty to charges of grand larceny related to the United Nations’ scandal-plagued oil-for-food program in Iraq, agreeing to pay a total penalty of $17.5 million.
    Join the dots and follow the money.
     

  15. Ericmac says:

    @Rab 
    @scotchwoman
    I think a metro type newspaper would be a great idea….  Cooperatively owned, non profit making.  
    I admire all the various blogs / media / online newspapers / facebook sites and so on that support the YES campaign.  
    But it seems we are missing a trick here….  Not everyone is online, and even if they are, they might not be inclined to read much. (emails and shopping)
    We are up against an ancient propaganda machine that is embedded in the consciousness of a large part of the population.  Remember, what we witness of MSM bias is not necessarily known or seen by the majority of the population.  People believe the press.  That’s years of conditioning.  The MSM has only recently been challenged, but the average joe (jock) in the centre of Scotland might be inclined to think a paper called the Scotsman, reports in the interests of their country. Or at least writes factual and balanced articles.      
    How about we start with a Media meeting in Edinburgh…  Invite all the pro Independence groups, bloggers and online news?  At least a discussion around making sure the excellent work that they do, get out to a wider audience than currently.
    I truly believe the vote will be won or lost on the basis of our media efforts…  especially when the MSM and Westminster turn up the heat and dirty tricks nearer to the 18th Sep 2014.
    We have time to organise.  If we don’t, then I fear the power of our pen may not be effective enough despite the passion, effort, and care that everyone puts in.
    Thoughts?? 
     
     
     
     
     

  16. Tattie-boggle says:

    Ian Taylor
    http://nationalcollective.com/2013/04/07/dirty-money-the-tory-millionaire-bankrolling-better-together/
    He really sounds like a bad guy from the TV show 24
    shows you really cant make it up after all .

  17. Cath says:

    “The no campaign are strutting round the MSM with impunity whilst we are portrayed as Nazis. Not one newspaper has questioned their main source of funds nor ever likely to.”
     
    Exactly. When the SNP got in with a landslide (given the political set-up) in 2011, I was really excited about the debate – we could have had a really good discussion about our future, what kind of country we want, how best to achieve that, what we want society to look like. Especially given the real and desperate need for change that is obvious across the UK.
     
    Instead this is rapidly becoming the most depressing period of my life, as we watch just how low our institutions will sink to make suer that doesn’t happen, and to vilify and discredit anyone wanting that kind of debate.
     
    If the No side win on this kind of campaign, I truly despair for Scotland, as I already despair for Britain and have for a long time. If they win on this kind of campaign, it will be because people have actively chosen to remain apathetic, not to care, and to allow people like this criminal and the Westminster elite to buy their media and lie continually to them without questioning it. That would be truly depressing, beyond even the very inevitable results of what will happen to Scotland after a no vote.

  18. Iain says:

    @BeamMeUpScotty
    ‘Lewis has much to answer for’
     
    Don’t forget Donald Trump’s maw, and Torcuil Crichton and his failed politician brother! Still, it’s no all bad.

    Scottish Parliament: Alasdair Allan MSP SNP
    British Parliament: Angus MacNeil MP (SNP)

  19. ianbrotherhood says:

    Has anyone else tried unsubscribing from the Scotsman website? I only ever signed up in order to post comments. Tried to unsubscribe yesterday – what a palaver! Still haven’t managed it, gave up after half an hour last night. The buggers must be hingin’ oan to each and every name in a vain effort to keep whatever advertisers they still have.
    And how many meetings are happening in board-rooms all across the country right now, with bemused executives looking at the Powerpointed ‘Klan Alba’ image, wondering how on earth they can justify continued support for such a scurrilous operation?
    ‘Come in Hootsmon, yer time is up…’
     

  20. Cath says:

    “The SNP are already fundraising for the purpose of producing a Newspaper to go to every house in Scotland”
     
    This is a good idea, and I’m sure will help. But at the end of the day, the MSM can say it’s just propaganda. It comes from the SNP. If what its’ saying is wholly different from the MSM, people either have to choose to believe it, or believe what the MSM – en masse – are saying. It matters no a jot where the truth and propaganda lies. What matters is the perception. The no side and MSM know this.
     
    If you look at the concerted, collaborative effort the entire MSM went to in spreading that bloody awful Better Together propaganda “top secret” rubbish to hide the GERS report from the point of view of “the truth” it’s very obviously a concerted propaganda effort. And a bad one at that. But the largest part of that propaganda is that Better Together can then post a picture of every single paper in agreement with them, printing rubbish and to someone who isn’t a political geek who looked at the original and followed it closely, it looks like it must be true because all papers are on message. If the SNP, or the Yes campaign then comes out and says something different, they look like the liars.
     
    I agree, we need to do a lot more. We have pretty much all the creatives, all the passion, a huge amount of talent and are a genuine grass-roots campaign, rooted in Scotland. Sites like Wings, Bella, National Collective etc brilliant. These kind of voices need to get out further. Somehow. I have no idea how. Once they do, I think people will seriously start to realise the “voices” in the media are not their own.

  21. Cath says:

    Out of interest, who does still advertise with the Scotsman? Targetting advertisers was very effective in getting the News of the World shut down. Is it worth a punt?

  22. HenBroon says:

    The NO campaign has lost it totally now. We just need to carry on and don’t panic.
     
    Off topic. If I can without getting jumped on and labels hung on me!
     
    The Commons defence committee chaired by the heid chairtube Davidson has been headlined every five to ten minutes on Real radio this morning. With his new bestest figure of 15000 jobs to go after independence.

  23. Jiggsbro says:

    Targetting advertisers was very effective in getting the News of the World shut down. Is it worth a punt?
     
    The News of the World managed to outrage just about every right-thinking person in the country. Advertisers weren’t particularly targeted by the outraged, they simply saw which way the wind was blowing and reacted accordingly. And they saw which way the wind was blowing because…the MSM told them.
     
    With the Scotsman, they’ve outraged a relatively small section of the community and – by and large – the MSM doesn’t give a toss about the outrage. I don’t think we can hope to affect the Scotsman in the way the NoTW was affected.

  24. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    ianbrotherhood says:
    8 April, 2013 at 10:59 am

     
    I had the same problem with old The Herald earlier and so have developed a strategy to dump them.
     
    I use a throw away gmail account which I delete every so often, usually when I get tired of spam for Viagra, hot Russian babes and surefire investment schemes in Brazilian Manga trees.
     
    With the rev’s blog you can change e-mail address and keep your old moniker (I think) or at worst add a number 1,2,3 etc at the end.

  25. Geoff Huijer says:

    This whole campaign of smears, innuendo, scaremongering from
    a complicit media is disgusting in a so-called 21st Century democracy.
    International observers of some sort are needed NOW because as
    much as some of us think they can’t stoop any lower recent reports/events
    show there are no depths to which the anti-independence people won’t
    go to to get their way.
    Currently, it is a complete sham and disgrace.

  26. Rod Mac says:

    Talking of the donations to the BT Campaign.
    It was with much sadness I noted that Baxters Foods have given a donation.
    I sent them an email saying that I could no longer buy their products .
    I suggested that the SOS article linking a swastika To the Saltire was the kind of imagery their money would buy
    Perhaps if enough of us email them complaining it will have some affect.
    Meantime i need to get a new brand of beetroot!!

  27. Cath says:

    I don’t think we can hope to affect the Scotsman in the way the NoTW was affected.”
     
    Not in the same way, perhaps, and not so dramatically. But there is a pretty clear trend where the Scotsman is headed, both in terms of sales and increasingly dire propaganda output. Perhaps a bit of pressure on advertisers would be pushing at an open door. Although the likelihood is unions and Labour councils probably provide a huge chunk of it.

  28. Mad Midgy says:

    Totally agree with Cath people are going to believe what they read or hear from friends etc its how to get the truth across to them that needs to be done, i know it sounds a bit far fetched but at the end of the day only way we can truely do that is by all these issues being debated in front of joe public on television for the whole country to see, Alex Salmond and David Cameron or Darling for that matter need to present there case to the Scottish public all questions put to both of them and an honest answer given and accepted its just so frustrating that this is happening and no ones been taking to task for it it really shouldnt be allowed…..is there not an auditing body that deals with all this during referendums to make sure alls fair in regards to media etc am sure they were used recently cant remember where sorry but surely if there is then Scottish government need to act now and request they intervene of some sorts  

  29. Cath says:

    “Perhaps if enough of us email them complaining it will have some affect.”
     
    I really struggle with this, because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I’m not going to stop buying Tunnocks tea-cakes or Mackies ice cream because their owners hold a different opinion to me, and have been honest enough to state it openly. (I never buy Baxters anyway, I’m strictly a Heinz girl!)
     
    But the problem is that is isn’t a fair debate where people get to state their arguments, it is a wholly one-sided attempt to clamp down on debate and simply smear, discredit and destroy one side of it. Which means those on the other side do begin to seem like “the enemy” rather than someone you’re having a friendly debate with.
     
    I think all those coming out for Better Together – whether political, corporate or individual – need to really start questioning the approach their side is taking. And I also suspect there must be many who are pro-indy but very much in the closet. Those people really need to start coming out, or – again – challenging those that may be putting pressure on them not to.

  30. Bugger (the Panda) says:

     
     

     
     

     
    Cath says:
     
    Was it the individual who donated or was it the Company?
     
    If the individual, then that is their right but if the Company then their customers have a legitimate right to boycott that Company’s products.
     
    Well, I fink so, but the I am just a bloody Panda

  31. Cath says:

    Fair point Panda. “Companies” don’t actually have views on anything.

  32. @Ericmac
    “I think a metro type newspaper would be a great idea….  Cooperatively owned, non profit making.  
    I admire all the various blogs / media / online newspapers / facebook sites and so on that support the YES campaign…  
     
    …We have time to organise.  If we don’t, then I fear the power of our pen may not be effective enough despite the passion, effort, and care that everyone puts in.
    Thoughts??”

    This is really what Yes Scotland should be doing.  I’m a bit worried about us “dividing our forces”.  We really need to be under a single banner and somehow break the Yes=SNP link.  I’d be interested in any meeting to swap some ideas though.

  33. callum says:

    what would you prefer?
    a) £500k from one man, or,
    b) £1 from 500,000 Scottish residents?
     
    The second is far more powerful and valuable even though the actual amount is the same. 
    We have to accept that the internet is going to play a large part in this referendum and it is going to be a david & goliath contest both in terms of funding and indeed journalism.

  34. Hetty says:

    Rabb’s comment on getting together to produce a daily newspaper(?) is exactly what I was thinking about last night, I can’t stand the ‘Metro’ ( it’s just like the ‘hello’ mag really) and in fact I was also wondering who funds such a widely distributed daily that is free? I have noticed lately that it seems to end up on the floors of buses, in fact I saw loads recently just strewn and you couldn’t really see the floor, brilliant, I thought! There has to be some way of widening the YES campaign message as many people don’t have time to read online and may not even have the internet.
    Ps.  do not read the ‘hello’ mag but saw it years ago in a drs surgery!!

  35. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Dave Beveridge says:
     
    Dave we need proselytisers to carry the message by word of mouth to counteract the MSM.
     
    The phase of the moment should be to point out to all in a sundry, mates ,work colleagues etc, the lies and distortion pumped out by the MSM (BBC especially) and ask them to question headlines and spin they hear. Some will not, of course bother but, a lot of the undecided are waiting there to be convinced.
     
    The killing phase will be the 6 or so weeks before the Referendum when we need to reach out in person to all those who are will to take in arguments and decide for themselves and not be manipulated by the MSM.
     
    I think it really is the only way and the purpose of WOS and other pro YES blogs is to give us the ammunition we need to carry that out.
     
    I think it was Margo McDonald who said that we need to convert 2 or 3 undecided persons each and we will win. It is there for the taking.

  36. a supporter says:

    Rev Stu
    You are being too kind to Ian Taylor. He is a convicted criminal. “… Vitol’s Chief Executive Ian Taylor pleaded guilty to first degree grand larceny after paying $13 million in ‘secret kickbacks’ to the Iraqi government in exchange for oil under the United Nations’ oil-for-food program. They were fined a total of $17.5 million ($13 million in restitution to the Development Fund for Iraq)…” He is also accused of evading the oil embargo to Iran.

    And as well as being a convicted criminal he ‘works’ in the City of London, is a pretendy Scotsman who has hardly lived in Scotland and has no vote in the Referendum.

  37. Rod Mac says:

    All the countries in the old Soviet Bloc had a media even worse than in Scotland.
    That did not stop the people rising up and ignoring the propaganda.
    Problem is ,in Scotland people neither are ,or feel oppressed.
    Therefore we need to appeal in other ways to the don’t knows and soft No voters.
    The Newspaper idea was tried and failed in 1999 election.
    It is time for us though to stop being so nice,and so reasonable.
    There is an attitude that prevails in the YES side of not wanting to upset the media or No voters.
    Thinking that if we remain “nice guys” they will eventually out of a sense of fair play give us a fair even debate.
    That is never going to happen , Nicolas slap down of Jackie Baillie was magnificent and long overdue.
    It is time for us to call this lot out every time they smear ,sneer and jeer.
    Unlike anyone else that has seceded from Westminster we have played it fair and democratically .
    Indeed Alex Salmond made the very comment that we have not so much as blooded a nose.
    I do however remember at the time of the Northern Ireland Peace accord Martin McGunness and Gerry Adams being invited to the White Huse and feted all over London .
    Meantime us democratic SNP were and continue to be called Nazis ,racists etc etc 
    Our FM is called Il Duce ,or likened to the dictator of North Korea.or Serbian war criminal.
    To expect anything resembling fair from Westminster and its Scottish lackeys is to also believe in the tooth fairy.

  38. muttley79 says:

    @Cath
     
     
    Exactly. When the SNP got in with a landslide (given the political set-up) in 2011, I was really excited about the debate – we could have had a really good discussion about our future, what kind of country we want, how best to achieve that, what we want society to look like. Especially given the real and desperate need for change that is obvious across the UK.
     
    Instead this is rapidly becoming the most depressing period of my life, as we watch just how low our institutions will sink to make suer that doesn’t happen, and to vilify and discredit anyone wanting that kind of debate.
     
    If the No side win on this kind of campaign, I truly despair for Scotland, as I already despair for Britain and have for a long time. If they win on this kind of campaign, it will be because people have actively chosen to remain apathetic, not to care, and to allow people like this criminal and the Westminster elite to buy their media and lie continually to them without questioning it. That would be truly depressing, beyond even the very inevitable results of what will happen to Scotland after a no vote.
     
    Bulls-eye.  The MSM have generally been gradually reverting to outright propaganda since May 2011, in other words since they and we they there would be a referendum.  There has always been a Unionist bias in the MSM, but it has now accelerated far past this point.  We now see the outright propaganda in the SoS story yesterday, failing to research Ian Taylor’s background, and now trying to pretend Kevin McKidd supports the No campaign.  Meanwhile, the Yes campaign appears to be almost invisible.  Is this a plan of theirs?  Answers on a postcard…     

  39. Norsewarrior says:

    “we need to appeal in other ways to the don’t knows and soft No voters…It is time for us though to stop being so nice,and so reasonable.”

    I’m not sure whether stopping being nice and reasonable will appeal to the undecided voters will it? 

    By all means we should refute and disagree with any smears or lies about independence and the Yes Campaign, but I think its important to maintain a sense of being reasonable and polite at all times in order to appeal to the voters we need, and not resort to the sort of hysterical bile and attacks you see from both sides on the Scotsman.

  40. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I was going to post something about being careful not over-react to the the NO lies and the MSM bias so as to reduce the “debate” (ha ha) to the Punch and Judy politics of the unionist parties but NoseWarrior beat me to it, except for his last wee bit.
     
    “-and not resort to the sort of hysterical bile and attacks you see from both sides on the Scotsman”
     
    You really are a Troll and I will ignore you from now.

  41. patronsaintofcats says:

    O/T: Mrs. Thatcher has died of a stroke.

  42. Les Wilson says:

    Th e BIG problem we have per say is the amount of tax payers money that Westminster is pouring in via the mass of personnel who are in government pay who are now deemed dedicated to the downfall of the SNP in order to thwart any Independence of Scotland.
    I personally believe that both MI5 and MI6 will also be deeply involved, for example if you look at sudden concerted efforts across the Unionist parties, also involving the concerted MSM efforts, then you begin to realize this is just that, a effort put together by someone or some department of Westminster. They have it off to a tee, as it repeatedly comes about. 
    There is no other word that matches, it is a conspiracy. Of course the LULU of it is, that the taxpayer will be paying, and yes, that includes US.!
    Democracy is dead in the UK, it is there to see. 

  43. Rod Mac says:

    Stu you allow Doris on here???

  44. Cath says:

    “Problem is in Scotland people neither are ,or feel oppressed..”

    I used to argue that last year in reasonable debate. Scotland is not oppressed or under dictatorship rule, so our situation is different from many others who’ve become independent.

    I no longer believe this to be true, and the contradictions in the rest of your post are precisely why:

    “Meantime us democratic SNP were and continue to be called Nazis ,racists etc etc
    Our FM is called Il Duce ,or likened to the dictator of North Korea.or Serbian war criminal.”

    That is oppression. And the media and all 3 Westminster parties are currently acting precisely the way they act in a dictatorship. It’s no longer possible to reasonably argue we’re a democracy and not under oppression – patently we are. That has been a huge surprise to me over the past year, realising just the extent to which the establishment will go to subvert democracy and debate.

    That’s why I believe the relationship between Scotland and rUK can never be the same again after next year. Too many scales have dropped for too many people.

    “I’d be interested in any meeting to swap some ideas though.”

    Same here.

  45. GH Graham says:

    You readers here don’t seem to get it.
    By clicking & referencing The Scotsman & The Herald websites, you are funding & sustaining their propaganda with your own actions.
    But you can ensure their financial collapse if you really wanted to. It just takes discipline.
    And no moaning about the loss of Scottish journalism when they fold (no pun intended); these two papers traded deep investigative analysis for peurile, jingoistic, ficticious shite, a long time ago.
    And I’ll keep posting these messages as long as you guys keep clicking on their websites & buying their papers.

  46. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “And I’ll keep posting these messages as long as you guys keep clicking on their websites & buying their papers.”

    I’ll get weary of that pretty fast.

  47. GH Graham says:

    And I’ll get weary of you moaning about The Scotsmand and The Herald.

  48. Macart says:

    People with connections to war criminals and donations to better together?
     
    Who knew? ;)

  49. muttley79 says:

    @Macart
     
    People with connections to war criminals and donations to better together?
     
    Who knew?
     
    Most of the people of Scotland do not know because of the continuing failure of the MSM to put any kind of scrutiny on the No campaign…

  50. Macart says:

    @muttley 79
     
    And a damn fine job their doing of keeping their masters hands clean in public. They also appear to have no problems in sleeping at night.
     
    Just over a year and a half muttley.

  51. Jiggsbro says:

    But you can ensure their financial collapse if you really wanted to
     
    No, we really can’t. If they were relying on us for their continued business, they’d already be dead. They still have actual readers. People who actually buy the paper. People who go to the website to read all sorts of articles, not just the odd one linked to by a blog. It’s those people who can ensure their financial collapse. Our input wouldn’t pay for the editor’s lunch.



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