Threats and menaces
With the referendum now just five weeks away and most of the polls still uncomfortably close, there’s an increasing sense of urgency and lack of subtlety about the No camp and media’s scaremongering.
Yesterday the Scottish media covered the award of a Royal Navy shipbuilding contract to BAE Systems in unequivocally political terms. “Promise of £348m shipyard contract for No vote”, blared the Scotsman, while the Scottish Sun’s front page went with “3 ships deal ‘if No vote’”. (The English edition was the rather more loquacious “Scots will land £348m Royal Navy contract – if they stay in the UK”.)
Yet the text of the articles told a radically different story.
Just seven paragraphs into the Scotsman’s, for example, came this:
And on the inside page of the Sun, a paragraph which doesn’t appear in either the Scottish or English online editions said the same thing:
Both articles also quoted UK government minister Danny Alexander as saying it was unlikely that the rUK would build complex warships in an independent Scotland, as that was the current convention. Yet we already know that that convention has been abandoned – the then defence secretary Phillip Hammond admitted just last month that the second Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier will be built at Rosyth whether Scotland is independent or not:
BAE Systems’ own press release on the three-ship contract made no suggestion of conditionality. It presented the deal as a straightforward fait accompli, and also noted:
Thickening the plot, the Daily Record reported SNP claims that the decision to award the OPV contract was actually made months ago and yesterday’s announcement was merely a confirmation – claims backed up by the UK government’s own website, which announced the contract in November 2013:
“MOD plans to commission 3 new ocean-going offshore patrol vessels for the Royal Navy.
All the evidence, then, points to the fact that the OPV contract does NOT depend on a No vote, and that further orders won’t do so either. Yet much of the Scottish media completely fabricated a scare story around it in order to mislead their readers.
It pays, as ever, to read past the headlines.
They are getting desperate; a scare a minute now.
Old news recycled by Westminster/No as if it is has some sort of significance.
If they were so far ahead in the polls as they like to think why do they even need to bother with threats and scare stories?
It is not what will be gained with a no vote it is about what will be lost
That wee bit inside the Sun echo’s the view expressed last night on the Andrew Neil documentary focusing on Trident. Westminster has NO plan B for Trident. While admittedly they could look at alternative delivery systems for WMD, they simply wont and cant admit, or even look like, they are planning for the result of a YES vote! Because it would be pounced on as an admission that it could happen….So its all hands to the pump, pumping as much doubt laden effluent into every media sewage channel they can find to create “reasonable doubt”. After all, with so many MP’s having their roots in the legal profession, that’s where their expertise lies….witness Darling!It’s not about truth, it’s how convincing you can make your lies!
There is no bottom to which the Union will not sink, in their every more frantic tactics to preserve their own purposes.
They say nothing that is the interest of Scotland, without their own interests hiding behind the bushes.
I’m confident the Scottish public, having been subjected to this kind of story for at least a year, will be well aware of what’s going on and decide what’s best for Scotland regardless. That’s a big YES of course.
Had to sigh when reading the phrase
‘Danny Alexander as saying it was unlikely‘
Its just got that smarmy modern politic ‘saying one thing whilst still giving me a future out’ feeling about it with its built in plausible deniability.
Looking forward to watching people like Danny boy spin spin spin into oblivion
“The Government is not planning for independence.”
After all the hysteria about Plan B’s, and they can tell a paper that they have no plan A in the event of independence… and nobody in the press picks up on this? Willfully burying their heads, the Unionist press.
We know that polls are suspect for a number of reasons. We hear a different story from doorstep canvassing. BT et al know the same!
With these shipbuilding contracts, the MSM are simply lying through their teeth about them being conditional. Why keep up the lies if they know their winning? Because they know they aren’t winning!
It’s somewhere around neck and neck, and I’m certain there isn’t the NO lead the MSM and polls push.
Could be a new Red Top appearing shortly, Daily Desperation.
They have nowhere else to go. They are still gambling on scaring enough uninformed voters to scrape a No, wonder who is in charge of the calculations.
Artificial polls back up media reports back up Westminster lines!
Ships still to be built in Scotland for new Navy, Oil fields, International cruise Companies and transportation.
Ability to diversify in market will be a huge improvement!
We should make the orrible unionist media pay a price, after 18/9. Financially and with their jobs of course.
The trickle has become a flood, little by little information reaches a dumbed down lied to populace treated with utter contempt by those who “serve” us! I’m not a wealthy man and have never been in a bookmakers in my life, but later today I’m sticking £500 on a Yes just to backup my complete and total certainty that we are finished with this tired, horrible and abusive relationship.
Yeah, I got the sense the last few weeks that BT are not acting like they sense victory. The campaign has been running for years now and both sides have lots of doorstep canvassing returns. It appears to me one side is keeping their heed whilst the other is becoming more shrill.
So although the contracts have been awarded the NT campaign still try to use it as a bargaining chip. More scares and as usual the MSM leave out the small print.
Funnily enough the Scottish papers are talking NHS and Englands great sell off. That’s the story everyone should see. No – No NHS.
But no , concentrate on whatever we can scare the Scots with today.
Bullshit.
Several people have said that the polls could be softening us up for a rigged vote.
There was talk of Wings observers at counts. Is this still happening? What can we do to make sure the vote isn’t rigged?
I suspect the reason why there appears to be a stepping-up of scare stories, misinformation and outright lies (Danny’s there is no privatisation in England NHS as the most recent) is that they have embarked on what they think will be the total annihilation of any further talk of independence if, IF, there is a No vote. From now until the 18th of September it means we have to really get out there and do everything we can to counter this onslaught. The Wee Blue Book will prove to be invaluable as a resource for all of us out there engaging in the debate as well as a great gift to give to undecideds.
Smell the fear.
Carrot and stick on a daily basis (accent on stick).
If we’re not being threatened, we’re being offered false bungs. There is only one guarantee on the table here and that is independence gives the Scottish electorate full control of their governance and their future.
Accept no substitutes.
Trying to alter MOD procurement is like turning a tanker. The MOD must be the least nimble and most inefficeint dept in Westminster. Nothing will change after a YES, timelines are set as are contracts with many a penalty clause I am sure. Maybe the unionist union leaders / mouthpieces will call a strike in protest at having to keep working on foreign contracts just to get it up them pesky nationalists after YES. There is no contingency plan for rUK on this, job done.
They’ve still got the same old problem, though, which is that much of Scotland see social capital ( housing, services, NHS, personal care, education etc ) as an asset not to be flogged off.
This will be the main rejoinder to these BAE sweeties type of bribe we are going to see in the next month.
1979 referendum, 30+ thousand Scottish shipbuilding jobs, today 3 thousand.
Vote No or else Guardian bleh with some real world “its our shipbuilding” consensus
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/06/shipyard-closure-announcement-and-pmqs-politics-live-blog
Tim Shipman @ShippersUnbound
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English shipbuilding sacrificed to pander to Scottish separatists. Do the Tories even want to win in 2015? No votes for them on the Clyde
8:35 AM – 6 Nov 2013
The stench emanating from the No campaign gets more and more repulsive with every passing day.
@yerkitbreeks
They’ve still got the same old problem, though, which is that much of Scotland see social capital ( housing, services, NHS, personal care, education etc ) as an asset not to be flogged off.
If someone reads this to Johann Lamont and her Labour pals then their heads will explode in astonished confusion.
Out canvassing last night the view of a lot of the voters was that they are angry at being lied to. The more they lie, the more people switch to YES. Remember the headline IT WAS THE SUN WOT WON IT, the headline on 19th Sep will be IT WAS THE LIES WOT LOST IT.
I, as I suspect along with most Yes campaigners, have long given up on the M.S.M. It’s a complete waste of time complaining to the B.B.C, or any of the print media about them being econonmical with the truth. Nothing will change between now and the 18th of September, and probably beyond, so it’s a fact of life we just have to live with. It’s only through sites such as this, and by leafleting and campaigning on the doorsteps are we going to win. The No campaign are still shooting themselves in the foot, as only last week while out canvassing two previously undecided voters told me they were now voting Yes, because of the remarks made by Boris Johnson, and the real possibility of a co-alition between the tories and ukip in 2015. If we win, and I believe we will, it will be in despite of the M.S.M, whom I believe have discredited themselves for all time, in denying the people of Scotland a fair and unbiased assessment of the debate. They should hang their collective heads in shame at their tactics, which are nothing more than repeating the No campaign lies and threats, usually verbatim, never questioning their statements, which Stuart in particular is so good at demolishing. So, get past this people, because it’s only going to get even more virulent, the closer we get to the referendum date.
It’s in this context that talk of ‘reconciliation’ after the vote is risible.
How can there be any reconciliation of Yes supporters with the ‘Scottish’ MSM?
How can there be any reconciliation with the self-serving naysayers of Westminster and Holyrood who feed the media’s distortions?
It ain’t happening.
The fabricated scare stories are only going to get worse the nearer we get to the 18 September.
Be fully prepared for the scandalous headlines on the big day designed to intimidate or frighten Scotland’s people into NO.
It gets worse ! BBC GMS ran two stories one after the other
The cuts to the disabled by the UK Government And how we will protect the NHS after Indy and the only way to protect the NHS in Scotland was to vote yes.
On both stories the last word went to a unionist who claimed that these were just scare tactics! What a bloody cheek Thats our line! mainly because when we say it about them it happens to be true. on The other hand well done to the farmers for yes spokesman Who kicked George lyons into touch even when lyons had the backing of the presenter.
Danny Alexander was jumping the shark in the media yesterday. As Claire Stewart of STV tweeted last night, “I’m not sure “steaming pile of nonsense” is the most dignified soundbite”.
His claim that lots of our jobs and a big part of the economy only exist because of the union was taking things too far – I would like to think any undecided voters hearing that would be as pissed off as I was at the implicit suggestion that we only have jobs because of the union, and not because we’re a nation with a highly-capable, highly-skilled and highly-educated workforce.
Fuck you Danny, is basically my message. Your entire career might have depended on sucking up to the union, but the rest of us are employed because we’re good at what we do, you snivelling little piece of shit.
Oh how I enjoyed his awful performance on BBC 2 last night…
I wrote to the Scottish cabinet to ask for independent neutral observers from the E.U. to monitor the referendum. They replied that it had been agreed by both governments that the the Electoral commission would suffice. I believe this to be a mistake . I do hope that I am proven wrong and that nothing untoward happens
Is it just me or are any of you Wingers perplexed at the don’t knowers.
How , after over two years of constant bombardment can anyone be a DK. What does it take to make a decision ??
These folks need to get off they’re collective arses and do something about it then. Years of scares and smears are the old excuse with a “not sure of the facts” comment thrown in for good measure. What a cowardly bunch they are. How can anyone not know which way they will vote now is way beyond me.
Making a decision is NOT that hard when you look even lightly over the issues. But we still have the DK’s whinging about lack of facts. I am sick hearing them.
How hard is the question ??
What they see everyday is YES having to supply ALL the answers whilst the NT campaigners spout out fear and distortion. The NO never answer a question without distorting and twisting.
DK’s want certainty from YES and no one questions the NO side. Well surprise surprise, there is no such thing anywhere. We cannot read the future but we know if we vote NO very little changes.
Are you happy with Westminster policies on welfare, child poverty, bedroom tax and fuel poverty ?
Do you stand by and watch as our disabled and infirm are sanctioned and forces to starve or freeze ?
Do you agree with Westminsters policy of sending our troops abroad to fight wars that cost this country much more than money ?
Are you happy to allow another country to decide what is best for you ?
Are you a blind and deaf moron who cannot look at facts for yourself and need some one to make those “difficult” decisions for you?
Are you happy to support a Govt that uses fear and smears on it’s own people to distort , twist and lie , to ensure a NO vote ??
DK’s get off your fat arses and make up your mind which way you are voting. Your excuses are pointless and useless. The info that you need is there right i front of you , take off the rosy tinted specs and have a look because it will be you The DK’s that will cost this country any chance of running it’s own affairs .
Your worse than the “proud Scots ….but ” mob.
At least they made a decision and you know where they stand.
You see, the thing about lying – or at least trying to hide/cover/divert the actual story, is that the truth always comes out – (it’s what parents/teachers tell children in early years education).
Then, you get found out. Now you’re just an untrustworthy fool who can’t tell the truth in the first place.. People will be for ever weary of you, always wondering what your not telling them..
It’s happening right now, under our very noses, every day. On the Telly. In the Newspapers. On Radio, and on huge advertising Billboards. Phrases, words and statistics being cherry picked by the scaremongers that represent Better Together, No Thanks uKOK to present a gloomy picture – Forces of Darkness almost.
Lucky we have sites like Wings, Bella, Derek B, Ginger Gug, Newsnet etc, etc, etc.
They give us the whole phrases and words with all the stats – whether good or bad. They analyse the information and present it to us, their audience (albeit with a Yes Twist).
When we are presented with ALL the information and argument, only then can we feel we’ve made an informed choice – YES or NO, and not an uninformed choice made from Better Together, No Thanks uKOK approved cherry picked misinformation.
I feel that after the YES vote, people will not be so forgiving of the MSM. You see once you start playing your readers/listeners/watchers for fools they will be reluctant to place any trust in you in the future. Look at the anger Thatcher still provokes in the Country for the way she played us all.
What camp will the MSM be in after the YES vote? Will they just jump into the lap of their next bedfellow – like a rat jumps from a sinking ship? Who will that bedfellow be? Will the Scottish readership/listener/watcher be forgiving? So many questions..
I think it’s becoming clear that it’s BAE Systems who will decide where ships are build, irrespective of Westminster’s policies.
After all, it’s not like Westminster has an alternative defence contractor for shipbuilding.
I spent many years operating multi-million pound manufacturing companies.
But even the efficient one’s cannot respond & adapt at the same speed as that, with which politician’s change their minds or rush to publish the latest propaganda.
These MOD contracts are won on satisfying multiple conditions with delivery & performance being right behind price. The penalties for non compliance are financially huge & in the worst cases, lead to a lack of future orders.
BAE Systems then has a production system & capacity that currently matches the demand from the MOD at the lowest possible cost.
A sudden change in that demand or changes to the conditions in the contract invariably lead to lengthy, complex negotiations & almost always, significant increases in costs & delays.
The MOD can’t even afford to put a single aircraft on either of the two aircraft carriers for at least another 4 years. So there is almost no scope to move the building of these large ships & incur massive delays & further additional costs.
BAE would rightly demand due compensation for any significant changes to the contract because they have already settled on a method of production.
Imagine the government sending a few smart-arse ministers to Landrover & demand that they move all vehicle production from Birmingham to Manchester & insist that there are no interruptions or delays or indeed any change in the retail price of the vehicles. Landrover would rightly escort them out of the factory, laughing at their stupidity.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they come to fight you, and then you win.” (M.K. Gandhi)
Do you think they have come to fight us now?
I think they may have overloaded the system with this tactic. Stir too much salt into the porridge and, after the consumers have thrown up a couple of times, they will learn to avoid it. 5 Un-decideds of my acquaintance will no longer read MSM.
O/T more of the government forecasting seems to be a little “suspect”. Just noticed that Sterling dropped significantly against USD and Euro
Euro:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/11/13/intraday.stm
USD:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/11/12/intraday.stm
So, looked for reason and found this wee snippet on wage forecasts just released by B of E released around the same time as the drop in value of the Pound:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28768450
Ho hum. Better Together I suppose.
@YESGUY
I feel passionately about the issues involved too, but I think you’re wrong to insult the undecideds.
Firstly, on a purely pragmatic level, it’s a bad tactic: how can you win them over if you make it clear you despise them?
Secondly, like my friend who’s undecided and is going to discussions and buying books about the referendum, a lot of them are just taking their time and doing their research. They’re the people Stuart is trying to reach with the Little Blue Book.
Thirdly, there may be quite a lot of “undecideds” who have leanings one way or the other but just don’t want to commit themselves yet to saying yes or no for definite.
Ooooo. Scare stories and subliminals too. Was in Asda this morning and there was a police constable sitting at a table promoting community policing. Giving away freebies, sweets, stickers, and UNION FLAGS.
These shipbuilding stories are just absurd. Where else can these ships be built? The contracts are already signed with BAE. The work will start before independence day. Are they going to start work here then take it all away? Where to? How? Or are they going to delay any work starting until after March 2016 AND they’ve re-opened the Portsmouth yards AND negotiated their way out of the contract with BAE on the Clyde? If so, what’s going to happen in the meantime? Won’t the ships be REALLY late if they do that?
Just nonsense. Anyone who actually thinks about this stuff for five minutes can see it’s scaremongering.
I fail to understand why the Scottish government is content to accept the electrical commission to oversee the voting on the referendum we all know they are biased towards the no vote and they seem to accept all the lies that are thrown at them my wife who is not political has just said maybe they do not really want to win makes you think.?but still vote yes
Jim Marshall says:
“the headline on 19th Sep will be IT WAS THE LIES WOT LOST IT.”
I think you are right, BT/BBC/VNB/MSM lies turns people to Yes, eventually.
There is no justice if misinformation, lies and deceit win this for NO. Democracy will have been circumvented.
No-one has answered my question about Wingers observing the count, which was mentioned a few months ago. Is this stil happening?
We need frigates for patrol duty in Scottish Waters.
Remember that the EU has rules in place that will require new ferries to be built to meet new standards. Work for shipbuilders that will go well into the future.
If we stay in the Union but pull out of the EU (as seems likely) neither will happen.
If we have two aircraft carriers sitting waiting for planes, will they splurge on more ships or shut the yards to save money.
Jim Marshall @ 11:17
Yes, that’s made me a much harder ‘Yes’ than I might otherwise have been.
@YESGUY says:
I don’t reckon that there are many genuine DK’s. I think you will find most of them are under the umberalla of shy yes’s
For a campaign that’s so confident of victory, it’s a damned funny way to behave. Their tone tells us more than they want to let on. They are terrified.
@Scots Renewables
I’ve seen Stuart mention it on Twitter. He was handwriting “THIRTY-TWO SEPARATE LETTERS to local authorities about referendum agents” just yesterday.
@Scots Renewable @ 11:32
I am sure that Stu mentioned this on another thread recently. I think he said Wings would have nonitors everywhere, except Shetland, Stirling and Dumfries (I am less clear on whether I have the last of those three correct).
The ship building issue is as usual a packet of lies. I have no doubt about that.
I also think that no matter what happens in the ref, that while I think YES will get it, that the Union is finished.
Scots see how inept Westminster is, how little they will, or want to actually improve Scotland.
Add all the lies and manipulation of just about everything.
We will never trust them again for they lay exposed to what they actually are. Thieves and deceivers, I cannot imagine things would just go back to where they were. The do not “get” Scotland and never have.
They will rue the day, they treated us so badly.
@Jonny and @Scots Renewables
Yes, you got that right. Here’s the tweet from Stuart: “Dumfries & Galloway, Stirling and Shetland – you have failed us. You will have no Wings election monitors. Everywhere else covered.”
Slightly O/T but there are still undecideds out there to be won.
Chap at my work who’s been a staunch No since the get go has finally converted to Yes.
Let’s keep the message out there, loud and proud, until midnight strikes on September 18th.
Oops. Sorry for spelling your name wrong, Johnny.
Coolheads Prevail
their projecting their terrors. it is their economy they are concerned with.
re currency, they are surely competent enough to be able to work out what currency options are available to scotland post indy. scotland has to have a currency after all.
if one takes their argument to it’s logical conclusion they are claiming that scotland will NOT be able to have any currency.
HMG has three modes of trying to frighten people into voting no.
1 They threaten (or appear to threaten) the people by the use of the old chestnuts. Could, should, might, unlikely, unimaginable etc etc. when the answer doesn’t suite them.
2 They tell blatant lies.
3 then the other old chestnut they don’t tell the truth, not the same thing as lying. More deception. The classic example here is the Atlantic margin, they have very good intelligence on what is out there. That’s why they keep looking scared when it’s brought up and immediately switch over to the North Sea oil fields. So they can switch on the “it’s running oot scam”.
THEIR WHOLE PROJECT FEAR IS TO DECIEVE THE VOTERS.
the DKs should ask themselves why are these people willing to sink to these depths to hold onto a too wee, poor, stupid backward country that costs them money to support. THEY REALLY ARE PRETTY NASTY THICK PEOPLE. THERE MUST BE A REASON. MABE THEY JUST NEED A VILLAGE IDIOT TO KEEP THEMSELVES AMUSED AND IMPRESS THEIR FRIENDS.
” Alex Salmond has today proposed that Scotland’s National Health Service should be protected from privatisation by being given a constitutional guarantee in the constitution of an independent Scotland.”
Nice one! Try up-staging that one, BTNT!
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/aug/nhs-be-protected-privatisation-after-yes
I was out canvassing last night for the very first time having conquered my doubts about my suitability with my increasing anger at tactics like this. The best way to beat anger is activity.
Spotted a new Yes poster on a window locally this morning to add to the Yes flag further along. On the bus route too.
Slowly, slowly catchee monkey. We are winning, only the size of the majority remains still in doubt. We need it to be as big as possible for all sorts of reasons, including making rigging the poll all the harder.
That’s my Tues and Thurs nights taken up from now until the 18th. I’ve even rejigged my running program to accommodate it, such is my commitment.
Scots renewables, Stu has it in hand, he was writing to every local Authority just the other day, registering his participation at the vote!
The process is underway but may require more accredited volunteers on the day to supervise at polling stations and for overseeing procedures at the count!
Message Stu for an update.
Next scare the UK will not issue any more drilling licences for N Sea oil.
they are imperialist control freaks, used to barking orders and being obeyed.
Regarding the vote monitoring, I know you’re allowed to oversee the count, and Stu has volunteers for that.
But there’s obviously hundreds of polling stations, what’s the plan there, just look at the major ones?
Also what about transport of ballot boxes to counting place, isn’t that the most likely place that tampering could take place?
O/T but reading beyond the headline “Scottish house prices soar” referred to five Aberdeenshire seaside resorts only.
I imagine its for all those laid off oil workers now that the oil is about to run out.
Aye Right!
Don’t knock the undecideds – agree with laura –
they may still need to be convinced, or
they may not be disclosing their hand for personal or political reasons(voting is a private matter, no one will know where you put your X)
All Scots with feet on the ground, leafletting, canvassing, meeting and greeting, speaking and singing, postering and sloganing –
Keep pushing for YES
Re shy voters – I must admit that I think Dont Knows registered by Yes canvassers are more likely to be Nos than otherwise. Why would a Yes voter be shy when asked by a Yes canvasser. I would love to believe it but …
Ship building. Again, again.
For headlines, Stu could have almost used Wyatt’s classic, line by line by now.
Has “people get filled in” come up yet?
Those MoD contract’s will help keep the skill set alive long enough, for a post Yes Scotland to implement a strategy that will bring this industry back from the brink.
Politically motivated Tax grabs ala Osbourne & Oil kill investment up here.
We can do better, hard to do worse really.
Kenny @ 11:56.
Aye, that’s exactly what they are. When the press can’t even be bothered to carry the lie into the article from the headline you have to assume even they are starting to lose the will.
Or you would, if they hadn’t been using that trick for so depressingly long.
If the oil is running out, is it too soon to start stockpiling petrol?
Stu – I refer you and others (once again) to this :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/thereporters/douglasfraser/2009/06/shipyard_closure_threat.html
There is other media coverage of something that has suddenly been ‘forgotten’ by the media and the politicians(Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, and some guy called Jim Murphy who has the worst memory of all !).
Hammond had the above memo in his hand during one of the ‘BAE Closure’ debates in the HoC recently. He came very close to reminding his opposite number on the Labour benches what that memo said and who was involved, but he bottled it.
He obviously realised that if the Scottish Electorate was reminded of what happened in 2008/9, what agreements had been reached, and that a contract had been signed guaranteeing MoD shipbuiding on the Clyde until the mid 2020’s – a central plank of the ‘No’ campaign’s Project Fear would simply disappear.
kalmar
“isn’t that the most likely place that tampering could take place?”
Postal shenanigans are easier, dodgy registers & mugging the vulnerable seem to work for new liebour.
The funny thing is that Yes voters, including myself, have more confidence in the decency and common sense of the people of the rUK (I call it NIEW UK – Northern Ireland, England and Wales)than No voters.
No voters believe that after a Yes Vote the Westminster government will do the dirty on Scotland.
Laura and Johnny.
I cannot believe the Don’t knowers need more info. I might agree with Johnny that they are shy YES voters and if so then they should be encouraged to say so as loud as possible.
We have the whole State machine against us and a compliant MSM. This gives them a voice that clearly gets to the voters even if it is just scares and lies.
YES voters are vocal and we should all be shouting out as loud as we can the arguments for independence. This softly softly approach was fine in the beginning but with 5 weeks to go we still have DK’s whinging about not enough info. It’s a cop out .
The questions that need answered are answered. The facts are there for all to see and hear and the DK’s have NO excuse. They will sell our countries soul because of their own insecurities.
I am sick passing on info and hearing the old ” oh am noh sure yet”. Meanwhile the MSM crank up the lies and twists to suit.
I was told a saying buy my old mum. Hope i don’t get it too wrong but it goes like this
” For evil to thrive all you have to do is say NOTHING ”
Dk@s say Nothing and are allowing the “Evil” to thrive. It’s time we all stood up.
Shy YES voters .. Lift your voices , you might start the ball running for more and find you are not in the minority.
Say nothing and you contribute nothing and allow the NO campaign to divide us.
5 weeks to go . It’s time to show your colours ,
Not to worry, should they decide not to take them because we voted for our own Country they’ll come in handy for the new Scottish Defence Force. We certainly don’t need fancy over complicated Destroyers like the new Daring, Fleet Destroyers.
Auld Rock
Re Polling Stations
Get yourself registered as a Polling agent with your local YES Group.
Get assigned to polling station turn before 7am check the ballot boxes are empty and sealed before anyone votes.
Do the same just before closing ensure Ballot boxes are sealed and put your own yes seal/sticker ensuring that the seal/sticker has to broken to open the ballot box.
When the ballot boxes arrive at the Counting centre the YES team confirm that the stickers are still unbroken on all boxes.
Then monitor the count closely and sample the votes.
I have been a Election agent for Westminster and local elections and have done this before. Do not trust the other side especially in this referendum.
To vote No, on the basis of the Better Together / No thanks campaign, therefore, you really have to believe that the rUK/ NIEW UK are a very nasty bunch indeed. So much so, in fact, that they even prefer being nasty rather than following whatever is in their own (and everyone else’s) self-interest.
This is an unbelievable scenario.
That some individual politicians are indeed nasty I can easily imagine (and not all of them in the No campaign); but that the people of Northern Ireland, England and Wales would let them get them away with such a stupid and self-defeating agenda is simply beyond belief.
Of course, the Westminster Government, and all the three main parties (Labour, Conservative and Social Democrats)who form the ‘BT/No Tea'(You’ll have had your Tea) Campaign are not telling us everything.
Apart from all the nasty stories that form the basis of their present campaigning, they DO have a PLAN B for what they will actually do if there is a Yes vote.
And it will be very different from what they are saying now.
They are just NOT TELLING US what it is!
At least the Yes Campaign shows confidence in people’s common sense and decency – not just in Scotland, but throughout these islands.
All these lies to protect about 100 people. That is 57 Unionist MSPs and about 43 MPs.. Never mind the sleepers in the House of Lords. It really makes you choke.. but 100.. we can all remember who they are after September.
About the polls softening us up for a rigged vote… This is a concern of mine too.
The vote will not be rigged in the counts, it will be rigged in the polling stations by stuffing of the ballot boxes with phantom votes of people that never turned up, before they are sealed and sent off to the counts. This is clearly what happened in Glenrothes, but someone made it a bit too obvious so the marked up registers of who turned up had to be destroyed, so they went missing from the local court of law. And nobody has ever been prosecuted for this. The election should have been annulled at the very least.
However, we can only hope that the high turnout expected in the referendum will limit this opportunity this time.
Muscleguy 12.18
Welcome to the YES foot soldier army of canvassers. As you will have found it is an enjoyable and rewarding pastime even though you come up against nutters like the man who told me that Trident could be relocated to Carlisle ! Just picture a nuclear submarine stranded on the mud flats of the river Eden. Aye canvassing has it”s funny moments.
Threats and menaces, and the way to respond.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/9582-nhs-to-be-protected-by-a-written-constitution
Nice one Alex.
@Triangular Ears
Indeed, that seems to be precisely what happened in Glenrothes. I well remember Brian Taylor predicting an SNP victory based on exit polling as the BBC came on air that night, with a sombre-looking Jim Murphy preparing his excuses. In the space of half an hour (as the boxes were being opened), the predicted result had been stood on its head, much to the astonishment of all concerned, including Murphy.
The question remains – precisely who did the stuffing of the ballot boxes at the polling stations?
@Dave Lewis – thanks, I will try to do that.
@ Wull.
Excellent posts.
@ Gerry Parker There is no doubt in my head that there is a busy department in Westminster thinking on this kind of stuff and putting it into action.
Remember I mentioned weeks ago about the ‘forum’ on Mumsnet (helping Mums debate) via Government adverts.
No voters are being asked to believe by their own campaign – and seem to be convinced – that
1. the rUK / NIEW UK will breach contracts they have already signed up to (as in this story);
2. it will erect border posts with Scotland, although it never did this with Ireland when it became independent;
3. it will refuse a currency union even though that will seriously damage its own economy;
4. it will impede Scotland’s ongoing membership of the European Union, for no reason other than spite;
5. it will in every way try to ensure that an independent Scotland is not a success;
6. and in doing all of the above, the rUK / NIEW UK will deliberately breach the spirit and letter of the Edinburgh agreement to which it has committed itself.
Not a very good start for a NIEW (new) country!
None of the above will happen, of course. It’s all campaign rhetoric … The No Thanks Politicians all have a much BETTER PLAN B, covering all these things, which they are not divulging. The only way to find out what it is, and discover that it is NOT SO BAD after all, is to vote YES.
I can only concur with what people are saying regarding undecideds. They amount to 20-30% of people. Yes that many.
My friend has just said he is swaying to yes after all the nonsense regarding the oil. He was a no, I am getting ready to send the wee blue book to all my friends.
The people of Scotland are listening and waiting on reasons to vote yes.
Let’s give them a few.
PS Alex Salmond’s Plan B is pretty clear for anyone who cares to read the White Paper.
Those hiding their PLAN B are the three parties that united to form the BT/NO Tea campaign …
On September 19 they’ll have had their tea – and then the real business of negotiating a settlement and creating a decent and respectful relationship, indeed friendship, between the two countries (one ‘new’ – UK NIEW – and the other ancient, Scotland) will start!
Does no one at the shipyard not read “wings”?, do they not understand Westminsters ” devide and rule” strategy ?, apart from the fact that they ought not to await handouts from the M.O.D., which keeps them wedded to Westminsters procurement coat-tails, it’s a big wide world out there.
“Clyde Built” can still has meaning all over the world, and can still be so once again, should commercial ships be built once more.
O/T
Could this be the reason why many people are so adamant about voting no? (also works for yes)
https://tinyurl.com/mn7qe95
@ Wull,
Aye, Ye don’t start a game o dominoes by playing the double six, and say,”my plan b was to play the double five there, or the double 3″
🙂
If Scotland Votes Yes the bbc is oot on there erse.
I don’t think it’s about knowledge for the DKs I think it’s about trust. The information is available, but it’s hard for people to know what to believe if they haven’t really been engaged as yet. All the Westminster parties are lying, and it’s easy for anyone to see that they are. The problem with this though that people think that the SNP are lying too. Politicians are currently almost universally despised.
How is someone just beginning to research know that the SNP are different? The MSM attacks on the SNP have been unrelenting and have been going on for years. They’ve also made it personal, all about Alex Salmond. So people have come to believe that this is true, that’s why they state that they hate Alex Slamond, but can’t actually give reasons why – I could happily give anyone a large list of reasons why I don’t trust the Westminster politicians as can all of us.
Challenging long held beliefs causes cognitive dissonance and that is what a lot of people who’ve made the joureny from yes to no have had to deal with. It can be a disturbing process and most people avoid it for as long as they can.
But the time to vote is getting very close and most people want to know more before they make that choice. That’s where the broader yes campaign comes in, because there are so many independent groups, each with their own point-of-view. I never give undecideds a link to the SNP site as a first contact with online info. Once people start to realise how much they’ve been deceived by the MSM (as someone said above) they start to get angry and they turn to people they know for info (vocal yes voters) and then start looking online or going to sources that someone they do trust has given them.
I believe that the Scottish Government know all this and this is why Alex Salmond has not been very visable. Instead Nichola has been doing stirling stuff as has John Swinney, Angus Robertson, Stuart Hosie etc. supported by independent, non-political yes groups they make very credible, powerful arguements
I thought the recent Scottish Government leaflet was excellent and it made a great contrast with the Better Together one, which arrived on the same day. They couldn’t have been better for comparing and contrasting. The yes campaign has been subtle and unrelenting, markedly different from the shrill no campaign. The timing on the whole has been very good. To gently persuade people to search elsewhere and let them come to the information on their own is very empowering. Personally I think that the ground swell of people planning to vote yes has reached critical mass (probably several months ago) everyone knows several yes voters now, so there is bound to be someone that they can ask.
I watched the debate from Inverness last night, wasn’t going to, but saw good comments about it on Twitter. James Cook was very good as was the audience, who asked searching questions and often backed up Angus Robertson. Danny Alexander bombed in his own constituency, I think it’s easy to see how unpopular he is now in Inverness. Contrast that debate with the ones that were happening a few months ago and you can see that things are changing.
But if you were relying on the MSM for info you would never believe that a yes is a very strong possibility, I know even we all doubt it at times. What we read about and see on our screens is in total contrast to what we see all around us and the daily conversations we are having. The media is very dominant, but I think it is increasingly turning people off
The Wee Blue Book is also a game changer for undecideds and once again, has come at the perfect time. Rev Stu has done a brilliant job with it. It covers the main topics in just enough depth and it reverences everything, which is hugely important.
As people have said, we have all the info we need, we just have to keep getting out there and talking about Independence, the big difference now, is that people are coming to us
I have been working on a couple of undecideds, who I knew were looking into things but who also had family and business commitments. I’ve been dropping in the odd nugget and have now started asking them for their opinions, which are tending towards Yes. I’ll make sure they are informed voters. Informed voters appear to favour Yes.
I will also be dropping in on a those who I have brought back to Yes, after being scared towards No. I’m sure they will need reasuring before all the scares are over.
@Cindie
“Politicians are currently almost universally despised. ”
It seems to be a common retort to avoid real discussion that, ‘Politicians are all the same’. It never seems to occur to them that it’s politicians who are calling the shots as long as these helpless people let them.
Unionists reject Gorgeous George.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28769435
I thought Danny Alexander took a pounding last night in the BBC debate, but he had Blair McDougall there to bolster him up.
James Cook, “Is Panama a disaster, you always quote Panama, is it failing, is it catastrophic?”
Alexander, “No, no, it’s, I’m, i’m, i’m, i’m not criticising Panama, I’m just saying.”
James Cook, “Well what’s your point then?”
_____________________
Panama has a population of 3,608,431.
It has won it’s independence not once but twice, from Spain in November 28, 1821 and then from Columbia in November 3, 1903.
unemployment was 2.9 percent in 2014, the lowest in the region.
“The problem with this though that people think that the SNP are lying too”
They are.
“How is someone just beginning to research know that the SNP are different?”
They aren’t.
“They’ve also made it personal, all about Alex Salmond”
No, Salmond has made it all about Salmond. With his claim that a yes vote is a vote for him, his party and its policies and version of independence.
Panama has of 2014, the fastest growing economy in Latin America.
Stick that in your pipe Danny Boy.
Oil reserves in Panama’s “Darien” jungle, could contain as much as 900 million barrels which will negate the debt incurred through it’s importation.
Did someone mention Panama, again? 🙂
Panama, which has used the US Dollar for one hundred years, is the most useful example because it is a relatively rich and stable country. A recent IMF report said that:
By not having a central bank, Panama lacks both a traditional lender of last resort and a mechanism to mitigate systemic liquidity shortages. The authorities emphasized that these features had contributed to the strength and resilience of the system, which relies on banks holding high levels of liquidity beyond the prudential requirement of 30 percent of short-term deposits.
Panama also lacks any bank reserve requirement rules or deposit insurance. Despite or, more likely, because of these factors, the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report ranks Panama seventh in the world for the soundness of its banks.
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/money-banking/how-scotland-could-flourish-by-unilaterally-keeping-the-pound/
Angus Robertson also said in that debate, “A very, very strong reason why sheeple, erm, people should be voting yes to protect the NHS in Scotland”.
LMFAO, what a freudian slip that was!
I have a friend who tells me his daughter works in financial services in Edinburgh. It appears she and all her colleagues (and him) are voting NO because they have read / been told that 50,000 jobs will be lost in the FS industry in Scotland if we vote YES. I know this is bollocks but can anyone point me to a good article to counter this argument.
He’s a bright bloke and ready to be turned, but understandably is concerned for his daughters future livelihood. I’ve already given him a copy of the WBB but that fear isn’t really addressed in the book.
Isn’t it strange how the Naysayers keep making claims and accusations but can never back them up with cites.
Jim McIntosh
There is one simple crude way of telling those in the financial sector that they need not worry.
That is to tell them of the trillions of pounds worth of oil still untapped in the North Sea. Plus the huge oil and gas fields in the Clair Ridge and the oil and gas in the Clyde.
With all that money, who is going to look after all that lovely money flowing into Scotland and all the investors wanting to do something with it. Then ask them if they think they will loose their jobs 🙂
@ Jim McIntosh
Try this
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scotlands-financial-sector-will-thrive-after-a-yes-vote/
“Isn’t it strange how the Naysayers keep making claims and accusations”
Like Salmond claiming Scotland ‘will’ form a currency union and ‘will’ become an EU member without being able to back up either of those claims with evidence, for example?
Sorry, @Stewart I completely and utterly disagree with you. I am not an SNP member or supporter, and have issues with several of their policies but they are in a different league from the politicians in Westminster. They firmly believe in Scotland’s self-governance and they have consistantly worked towards that.
I have no idea whether I’ll vote for the SNP after Independence, haven’t decided yet. But just about everything they have included in the White Paper is backed up by independent sources, unlike most of what is stated by Westminster. I know because I have researched it and much of it has been discussed and/or examined here on Wings if you want to check for yourself.
@JWil, that is the problem though isn’t it? Most people rarely engage until they have to. It’s all too easy to deceive them.
No mention in the media today of who “won” last night’s debate – I wonder why? Is it because it was YES?? Also no mention of Danny boy’s slip up slagging off the NO campaign – just shows how involved he is in the campaign (i.e not at all)
I agree with everything you say there Cindie and I AM a card carrying member of the S.N.P. The only thing I’ll say, before being kicked off here 😉 , is that I believe that they, S.N.P., should be given the first chance at running an independent Scotland for the first 5 year term. They have a proven track record in their workings with a tiny fixed budget, I believe they should also be given first shout at trying to do so without the tiny amount of pocket money from WM.
Political broadcast over, coat fetched and I’m oot the door! 😛
Stewart Mckenzie
I’m exactly the ‘profile’ as Cindie, if that helps. 🙂
I’m exactly the same ‘profile’ as Cindie…
“just about everything they have included in the White Paper is backed up by independent sources”
Which ‘independent source’ says that Scotland “will” form a currency union and “will” become an EU member after independence?
slightly o/t i really wanted to watch the debate last night but it would seem that my wee freeview box keeps freezing everytime i put it on a BBC channel it works fine for every other channel just the BBC,im wondering if it has become self aware that it is in mortal danger everytime i switch it onto BBC lol
Freeview box says yes to independence and down with the BBC 🙂
“It appears she and all her colleagues (and him) are voting NO because they have read / been told that 50,000 jobs will be lost in the FS industry in Scotland if we vote YES. I know this is bollocks”
Sterlingisation means no central bank. No central bank means every major financial company leaving Scotland.
Even yes supporters are now turning on Salmond:
http://jimfairlie.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/if-scots-vote-no-blame-alex-salmond.html
Stewart,
Lots of Yes voters don’t care for Salmond. This is not new information.
Won’t be stopping us voting Yes, however.
Just for you Stewart. 🙂
Panama, which has used the US Dollar for one hundred years, is the most useful example because it is a relatively rich and stable country. A recent IMF report said that:
By not having a central bank, Panama lacks both a traditional lender of last resort and a mechanism to mitigate systemic liquidity shortages. The authorities emphasized that these features had contributed to the strength and resilience of the system, which relies on banks holding high levels of liquidity beyond the prudential requirement of 30 percent of short-term deposits.
Panama also lacks any bank reserve requirement rules or deposit insurance. Despite or, more likely, because of these factors, the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report ranks Panama seventh in the world for the soundness of its banks.
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/money-banking/how-scotland-could-flourish-by-unilaterally-keeping-the-pound/
Nearly £60 Billion lost to Scotland with little benefit if we vote No, really are the’Proud Scots’going to build us more foodbanks in return?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tQGb6iaBFLxtcu_mAwXZD-w/htmlview?pli=1
Is there anything the no camp, Westminster and the press, won’t lie about, I think not, be prepared for a barrage of lies between now and the 18th of September.
@Jim McIntosh says: 13 August, 2014 at 2:47 pm:
“… voting NO because they have read / been told that 50,000 jobs will be lost in the FS industry in Scotland if we vote YES.”
Dead easy, Jim. Turn the claim back upon him. Tell him that it is nonesense and ask him the basis for his claims. There can only be one reason why jobs would be lost in the FS after independence.
These people obviously think the FS companies are going to leave Scotland. Why would they do that? It costs money to move a business and they are obviously where they are for a good reason. They didn’t just stick a pin in a map, and with their eyes shut say, “Right we’ll set up there”. Business is not going to flit to London – have you seen the cost of London office space?
The most likely post indy happening is an independent Scottish government cutting business rates & taxes and making it even more attractive to remain in Scotland. Furthermore, post indy, the Kingdom of England government will have a big reduction in revenue. All of Scotland’s former revenues plus a reduction in their former share of oil & gas from 91.5% down to around the 9% they’ll get from English waters. They won’t be able to cut their business rates & taxes for they will also be shouldering all the former UK’s national debt.
Someone has been frightening them with Bitter Together lies that are as transparent as next doors windows, (mine are dirty and the cleaner has just been next door.
:-))
Hewitt83 says: 13 August, 2014 at 3:27 pm:
“Lots of Yes voters don’t care for Salmond.”
Wee! Wah! Wee! Wah!
Troll alert.
I beg your pardon?
Are you suggesting all Yes voters need to be fully, paid up members of the SNP?
Now personally, I have voted SNP since I was 18 and Salmond doesn’t really put me up nor down.
However, I know plenty people who are voting Yes who have managed to look past their dislike for one man.
Donald Gillies, not only do Westminster not have a plan B for Trident in the event of a YES vote, They don’t even have a plan A ! nothing ,zero,zilch. So next time you hear these Westminster unionist parties asking the F.M. what his plan B is on currency,remember they haven’t got any contingency plan re. Trident short of phoning” we buy any nuclear sumbs.com” !!
i dont think Robert meant it at you Hewitt83 but to the guy you were responding to 😉
Derek M says: 13 August, 2014 at 4:57 pm:
“i dont think Robert meant it at you Hewitt83 but to the guy you were responding to”
On the button Derek M – why would I warn the actual troll?
I will debate with the opposition if they make reasoned arguments or offer cites. This one is a juvanile Oick yelling childish abuse and best ignored. It’s why we are winning – we have the argument they only have have lies and abuse.
Have I got this right? Westminster ministers tell us that if we vote Yes shipbuilding jobs on the Clyde are under threat because Scotland will be a foreign country and the MOD won’t order military hardware from us.
From the same sources we are told (Jack Straw was very definite about this in Andrew Neil’s programme)that even if we vote Yes Scotland will have to keep Trident.
So rUK will insist that Scotland, a new sovereign state (and a foreign country) is host to the only nuclear weapons system in the British Isles. So Scotland, a foreign country to the rUK becomes the continuing nuclear power in these islands.
I’m not sure they’ve thought this through fully!
@gerry parker
Thanks for that. I’ll print off the article from BfS and give it to him. Hopefully he’ll pass it onto his daughter.
Interesting to point out to him that Zurich and Geneva are both smaller than Edinburgh, Singapore is less populated than Scotland and all three are in the top 10 financial centres of the world. (ref-Global Financial Centres Index 15)
Looking further into this I see that Edinburgh dropped down from 37th to 64th between 2012 and 2014, so there is potential for this slide to be reversed if we say YES. I’ll convince him 🙂
Jim McIntosh – You could also remind your friend, if he has forgotten, that Edinburgh had it’s own Stock Exchange in the 60s. It was situated on the north side of Thistle St, just down from Standard Life HQ in Edinburgh. It had a glass covered skywalk linking it to another building on the north side of St. Andrew’s Sq, not sure what that building was, but I do know that the BoE had monthly meetings there which may have included the Remembrancer.
I don’t know whether having our own stock exchange is a good thing or not, but we used to have our own.
@Lesley-Anne, I agree they certainly deserve a chance to be the first government. @Cameron 😀
Robin Ross
What these clowns seem to forget or ignore is the little fact that Scotland as such will have its own Navy and will embark on having ships built as well as taking its rightful share of the existing UK navy, excluding the Trident Subs and Carriers (will take the reciprocal values though)
So to tell people without Westminster there will be no ships built, is in reality complete and utter horse shit.
Westminster likes to act as if it has the money, but in reality most funding comes from Scotland anyway. So the reality is Scotland will easily afford to build up its naval fleet to match its own requirements and obligations, where as Westminster will be toiling and will have to cut back further
Absolutwly disgusted by Jackie Bird’s patronising attitude interviewing Alex Salmond.
No respect whatsoever & bugger all impartiality.
The Bird was wired to the moon for that interview. It was appalling. However Alex was game for it and quite frankly, trounced her.
We look ahead and upwards, they look back and down.
We laugh and hope together, they tell us we should worry.
We seek to help and teach the poor, they seek to deny them.
We provide medicine for the sick and needy, they seek to charge them.
We seek peace and friendship, they seek confrontation and status.
Our destination is clear, they are lost.
@Jim McIntosh
I work for one the worlds largest financial institutions and they are going nowhere. They do business in every country in the world (apart from 4), so Scotland being independent won’t be an issue.
@TJenny, Glasgow also has a Stock Exchange, it is on one of the corners of Nelson Mandela Square. Although I have to say it has been many years since I visited it.
Earth calling @Stewart Mckenzie’s trolling frenzy at his 3 o’clock teabreak …
Re the Jim Fairlie big scoop: in his time JF was a prominent member of the SNP and belonged to a more fundamental way of thinking that was superseded when the SNP moved more to the left and embraced the idea of the EU. He went off in the huff and snipes from the sidlines. Not much heard of until his sniper site zoomed in on the Big Rigged Debate …
As for your points on currency/central banks/EU membership and all that other important stuff that can only ever be understood by white chauvinistic alpha males who went to elite public schools and herald from a long proud Brit heritage but often find that they are confused about their sexual predilictions even though they harbour strong ambitions to one day sit in the House of Lords.
Well, sorry, you’ll just have to forgive our wee diddy country for trying to do what’s best for her people. And if you’re one of those heading south soon, big lovebombs to Boris and Gideon and Nigel et al. Good luck with that!
This was in the DR from Alison Craig.
……..
REFERENDUM
VOTING Yes or No is up to the individual. What disturbs me is that anyone who stands up and is counted gets pelters from the opposition.
Some of the vitriol and venom that is being spat just undermines the intelligent, creative energy and individuals that our country has always been so proud of. Will this unrest and clear division be buried on September 19 when it’s all over or has this just stirred up a hornets’ nest of disquiet and instability for both sides which will go on and on costing money and uncertainty going forward?
Looking around the rest of the world and seeing how such divisions split countries and families and can cause a deep permanent rift in cultures would our money, time and effort not be better spent suring up the relationships we already have and thanking God we live in a peaceful country, United Kingdom or not. Pelters, on you go…
…………….
My reply.
@Alison Craig.
You write about a vitriolic campaign, then omit any examples !
Try this, before you and your ilk in the media moan about idiotic behaviour, whichever ‘side’ is involved in it, look in a mirror and ask yourself, have i contributed to these disgraceful events by poor reporting, biased reporting, being devisive to sell copy, and simply not questioning any of the utter nonsense of the Unionist politicians in particular.
Simplest example, Currency.
This is for you, Alison Craig, to answer.
Do you accept that Scotland cannot be stopped by ANYONE from using the pound ?
Would you also accept that A. Salmond has clearly stated an alternative to CU in the event of the ruk government actually being stupid enough to continue refusing CU ?
Why do the media use rhetoric suggesting that every lie or misinformed pile of guff from BT is a fact without questioning them ?
This paper has for decades proclaimed itself the champion of the people, this independence campaign has show that up to be arguably, the biggest lie of all.
Of course, feel free to write a short article as a right to reply to my points made, or shall you simply hide behind your keyboard preparing the next non-researched, unquestioned regurgitation of anti-independent rhetoric ?
Over to you.
geeo – that’s the way. Sock it to them. 🙂
Mind you, you will now be lambasted as a nasty cybernat, by telling the truth and all. Makes me proud. 🙂
@Lesley-Anne
I agree, the SNP has done great in Government so after Independence I see no reason why they wont be voted in again and personally I wont be voting for a labour Government which so vehemently tried to deny us our Independece in the first place, the Tories are a spent force in Scotland and the liberals are just a joke.
Testing
T-Jenny.
I WILL get on the fabled ‘list’….lol.
Email fired off to the editor of the DR….breath NOT held though…
Jackie Bird looked like a complete novice when interviewing Alex Salmond. She has no gravitas. It was embarrassing to watch. I wonder if she has watched the video of the interview?
Between her and their amateur business correspondent, David Henderson, who is incapable of saying anything without throwing his arms around and his infantile Jackanory style of presentation, I had a bad night of viewing.
@JWiL
Did you not watch ‘Our Friends in the North? Quite like Allan Little, certainly less shrill than P Quays’ all-singing, all-dancing, Jackie Burd.
Best bit was when he spoke to Marie Simonsen regarding Norway’s inferiority complex to Sweden. Sounded vaguely familiar!
Aye Jackie bird was certainly trying her best to look like a professional political commentator who believe shreking in a loud voice means she actually knows her subject.
Our first minster just calmly and cooly stamped her into the ground, job done. It will be very interesting to see if she trys the same nonsense with Alistair Darling tonight or will it be as we all suspect a glorified love in, exactly who will get the worst of that deal is debatable.
Scotland (allegedly) wont be allowed to build ships but we’ll still buy nukes from the US.. The hypocrisy is staggering.
As a non scot and non english (although with ancestry in both camps) I’ve been following this whole debate with some interest although I really couldn’t care less who does what apart from being pleased that it’s being decided by a vote – there are very few countries in which this would be allowed – rather than violent separatism.
I think though it’s now pretty clear that independence is toast. It reminds me a bit of the republic debate here down under. The yes side had the good emotional argument but was surprised and caught short by the no voters having the audacity to point out practical problems with the proposal and because it saw no voters as either ("Tractor" - Ed)s or just a bit thick never really deigned to address their concerns. The other similarity seems to be a somewhat self indulgent anglophobia – the true anglophobes would vote yes regardless and it put off quite a few undecideded who wanted to honour the historical connection while being open to the idea of moving on.
I’m tipping 35% voting yes but as I said don’t really care apart from a general interest in seeing competently run political campaigns and whichever way you go good luck to you.