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Wings Over Scotland


The wishful believers

Posted on October 28, 2015 by

As we observed last night, the BBC’s Andrew Neil has reacted with rather poor grace to his chiding at the hands of respected statisticians Jim and Margaret Cuthbert. Neil embarked on a Twitter blocking spree and tried to rewrite history, claiming that he’d “simply offered” the blunt claim that there had been no cuts to the Scottish budget in the last five years “as one measure” of the money available to Holyrood.

The problem for Neil is that we recorded video of his Sunday interview with the SNP’s Angus Robertson, and anyone can see for themselves that Neil made an unequivocal assertion with no suggestion whatsoever that there were any alternative measures.

wishitwantit

“In real terms there’s been – no – cut”, said Neil, spitting out the last three words with dramatic pauses between them for emphasis, in a statement whose stark absence of ambiguity unfortunately left him no wiggle room when the Cuthberts politely but firmly pointed out that it was “ridiculous” to argue that there hadn’t been any cuts, and that the budget “clearly has gone down”.

But Neil’s embarrassment is illustrative of a much wider delusion.

Followers of this site’s social media accounts will very likely have encountered a particular group of angry Unionists inexplicably still fighting the referendum campaign despite having won it more than a year ago. Their particular grievance is with our Wee Blue Book (read by over a million people last year), and a few lines in it on the subject of Scotland’s economy which the angry Unionists furiously claim to be “lies”.

(Many of the alleged “fabrications” of the WBB are in fact just quotes it’s printed from other sources, such as the Financial Times, all sourced and clearly labelled as such.)

We’ve always ignored them, partly because the claims – which are chiefly levelled by an obsessive, abusive businessman with self-confessed attention-seeking issues (see the quote below from a 2011 Telegraph interview) – have no merit at all and partly because there hasn’t seemed much point in getting drawn into an argument about the referendum when it’s over and there’s no second one on the immediate horizon.

seekingapproval

But it’s perhaps worth taking a moment to lay out some facts as an illustration of how humans will seize on any case, no matter how obviously full of giant, gaping holes it is, in order to believe something if they really, really want it to be true.

The Unionists primarily object to a line in the WBB’s “Economy” section which says “Scotland subsidises the UK by billions of pounds every year, and has done for many decades”. Yet this claim is easily verified, using only figures provided by those either neutral or actively hostile to the cause of independence.

In 1997 the UK government explicitly admitted in Parliament that Scotland’s net subsidy to the rest of the UK over the preceding 18 years had been in the order of £30bn, despite the oil price for most of that period being around $20 a barrel.

oilprices

(Since that time, of course, the price of oil has been far higher, and is still more than twice that level even after the crash that happened around the start of 2015. But as we’ve recently pointed out, the health of the Scottish economy is far more complex and nuanced than simply a matter of looking at what the oil price is anyway.)

When independent analysts FullFact investigated Scotland’s finances in 2014, they concluded that Scottish taxpayers had over the last 30 years contributed £222 billion more to the UK exchequer than their fair share – about £7.4bn per year on average.

“If we divide Scotland’s total tax receipts for each year by its population, we generate a figure for the ‘tax receipt per capita’ – in other words, how much each person contributes to the Treasury.

If we also repeat this calculation for the UK, we can see that Mr Salmond is on the money when he says [that] in every single one of the last 30 years, the amount of tax revenues generated per person in Scotland was greater than for the UK as a whole.

If, continuing to apply the geographical share principle, we look at how Scotland’s total tax receipts since 1980 compare with the UK’s, we can see that Scotland has contributed – as Mr Salmond notes – a surplus £222 billion in today’s prices.”

The Unionists protest, legitimately, that the UK also spent disproportionately more on Scotland to partly balance that contribution out. The “Better Together” campaign used a figure of £1200 a year, which for the sake of argument we’ll take at face value.

bt1200

For most of the oil era the population of Scotland was just above 5 million. If we take a generous average of 5.1m and multiply that up by the claimed £1200 we get £6.12bn a year in extra spending, balanced against our £7.4bn in extra contribution, meaning Scotland paid around £1.3bn a year more into the UK on average than it got back, according to the official No campaign’s own figures.

(And it’s perhaps worth noting in passing that any “UK average” figure is in itself being distorted upwards because it includes Scotland’s higher contribution.)

But that’s a crude back-of-an-envelope calculation which disguises the full magnitude of the subsidy. To get a better picture of the reality we have to turn to Professor Brian Ashcroft of the Fraser Of Allander Institute.

The husband of former Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander, he’s nobody’s idea of a Scottish nationalist. And in 2013 he set out to prove that Scotland hadn’t had a rough deal out of the Union since the oil boom:

“When you do the numbers, over the 32 year period the total value of tax receipts is £1,425 billion while the total value of public spending in and for Scotland is £1,440 billion.”

Prof. Ashcroft’s figures asserted that in real terms over 32 years Scotland had spent (or more accurately, had spent on it) £15 billion more than the amount of money it had earned in taxes – a net average overspend of £469m a year.

That’s an absolutely tiny deficit by international standards, somewhere in the region of 0.3% of Scotland’s GDP of £158bn.

But Ashcroft goes on to note, albeit somewhat reluctantly, that even those figures do Scotland a disservice. They’re severely skewed by the fact that Scotland contributed billions of pounds a year to servicing UK debt, even though – as he notes – Scotland had incurred almost none of that debt itself, because it had almost no deficit.

“I estimate using 19 years of Government Expenditure and Revenues Scotland (GERS) that Scotland’s share of UK debt interest amounted to £83 billion at 2001-12 prices. Subtracting this from total estimated Scottish spend of £1,440 billion we get a debt interest adjusted estimate of spend of £1,357 billion. Total estimated tax revenues are £1,425 billion.

This means that Scotland was in overall surplus by about £68 billion.”

Prof. Ashcroft isn’t clear about whether he’s calculating that debt-interest stat over 19 years of GERS or the full 32-year period. But if we take the most Unionist-favourable interpretation and say it’s 32, that’s a net average subsidy from Scotland to the rest of the UK of £2.2bn a year. (Over 19 years it’s £3.6bn a year.)

That figure still understates the reality significantly, because of course Scotland would have enjoyed considerable additional benefits from that £68bn surplus, the larger part of which accrued early in the period. It could either have invested it in a Norway-style oil fund, generating uncountable billions of pounds in extra income, or spent it in the economy, generating growth and tax receipts. (Or most likely a combination of both.)

Nevertheless, what we find by examining only figures provided by the Unionist side is that beyond any possible question, Scotland HAS subsidised the UK by billions of pounds a year for decades, exactly as stated by the Wee Blue Book.

(Depending on how you interpret the figures the exact size of that subsidy is anywhere from £1.3bn a year to several times as much.)

The angry Unionists simply ignore Prof. Ashcroft’s rather inconvenient findings on the subject, and the obsessive attention-starved businessman then cherry-picks some misleading statistics, isolated from context, to paint a gloomier picture that anyone willing to be blinded by a snappy-looking graph can convince themselves is real.

Anyone foolish or naive enough to attempt to engage in debate with them is told that the figures being discussed here refer to the past and are therefore irrelevant. But then the WBB clearly identifies that they’re historic, and outlines exactly what it’s referring to, citing most of the sources we’ve listed in this article.

wbbeconomy

The future, obviously, is unknown. Nobody – including the UK government – predicted the oil crash, for example. But as Prof. Ashcroft (again) noted earlier this year, while a low oil price damages the headline state of the economy the real-world effect is very different, and on balance probably beneficial.

“The Scottish economy will continue to pick up pace, despite the lower oil price having an adverse impact on the oil and gas industry. The Fraser of Allander Institute’s regular forecast shows the boost to oil users in Scotland outweighs the harm to North Sea producers.”

(Because the money the government loses in oil taxation is recouped in other ways, eg by taking in more corporate tax from businesses doing better thanks to lower fuel and energy costs, more personal tax from more people being employed and having more money to spend, and lower welfare expenditure. The low oil price also brings about a very considerable direct redistribution of wealth into people’s pockets – the cost of fuel has plummeted by around 50p a litre in the last couple of years, saving consumers far more money than any amount of tinkering around with tax rates.)

In looking to the future the angry Unionists also deliberately ignore the fact that the whole point of independence is to do things differently. Their figures are unfailingly based on an independent Scotland pursuing the same failed policies and spending plans pursued under the stewardship of the UK – which have left Scotland lumbered with a large share of the UK’s vast (and still growing) £1.5 trillion debt and the crippling interest payments on it, and a shattered manufacturing economy.

They also don’t take account of the fact that Scotland shoulders a disproportionately high share of the UK’s debt burden, nor the likely outcome of any negotiations over debt in the event of independence. The Scottish and UK governments have widely differing views on what would be a fair share for Scotland – partly arising from Prof. Ashcroft’s calculations – which would have a major effect on Scotland’s future deficit.

(The Unionists, of course, assume unquestioningly that the worst-case scenario would prevail, even though Westminster has no means of forcing an independent Scotland to accept any debt at all, especially if it holds to its bluff over refusing a currency union.)

All of these facts are self-evident. The figures showing Scotland’s huge net historical subsidy to the UK are uncontested by either side. Yet the obsessive attention-starved businessman is feted not only by a handful of loonies on Twitter, but also by a Unionist press which has been driven half-mad by its hatred of this site’s scrutiny of it, and which fawns over his comical, fundamentally-flawed blog posts and frantically tries to puff him up as a serious, credible counterpoint to our analysis.

Andrew Neil is only the latest victim of the No side’s desperate search for a hero. The angry Unionists’ attacks on the WBB, most of them built on deliberate, tortured semantic misinterpretations and the avoidance of awkward facts, fall to pieces under the slightest forensic gaze – not from us, but from expert neutrals and Unionists like the Cuthberts and Brian Ashcroft.

The simple truth is that the No side believes a second independence referendum is inevitable, and is terrified that they’ll lose it. They blew most of a 30-point head start last time, and have continued to see their lead eaten away in the 13 months since.

That means they mortally fear any powerful source of information and persuasion on the Yes side, and will clutch at any straw – no matter how transparently deranged – to try to smear and discredit it.

We, meanwhile, will continue to stick to the facts.

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    414 to “The wishful believers”

    1. Pete Cutter says:

      Classic cases of confirmation bias, fascinating to behold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

    2. The Man in the Jar says:

      Bravo!

      Brilliant article. I cant help feeling that it has been overdue. That wee clique of unionist eejits are a very, very tedious bunch of *****!

    3. handclapping says:

      infailingly, well even Shakespeare had to invent words when the English of his day was unsufficient.

    4. Capella says:

      Excellent analysis. Backed by the facts. But we will never hear any of this from the BBC, the Corporate Media or the celebrity attention seekers.

      Another Wee Blue Book is needed soon, updating what has happened since the referendum. (EVEL, closure of Steel plants, pension changes, Tax Credits, death of those with disailities sanctioned by DWP etc).

    5. Swami Backverandah says:

      It’s not a dead parrot.
      It’s just sleeping.

    6. Finnz says:

      Another excellent article Stu, and all we can do is make sure the message gets out there to the undecideds and the disbelievers.

    7. Flower of Scotland says:

      Thank goodness for this Stu!

      I’ve been in a wee debate with a patronising Tory relative from the South, although a Scot, believes that we couldn’t “manage” on our own.

      I’ve been thinking of giving up on the debate, because I was floundering a bit with my arguments, and “wham” there it all is from you today.

      Were you reading my mind?

    8. Still Positive. says:

      All the toryboys in the Commons are still peddling the myth that England bestows its largesse on us.

      Yesterday, Osborne claimed Scotland’s “black hole” is now £30 billion.

      Don’t know what John Swinney is doing for it to rocket from £7B to £10B to £30B in a few months. 🙂

    9. Brian Powell says:

      Sometimes I think it would be good to have an approve/agree button on the page, the agree counter would put a whole tribe of whirling dervishes to shame.

    10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “infailingly, well even Shakespeare had to invent words when the English of his day was unsufficient.”

      I THINK YOU’LL FIND THAT LINE ALWAYS SAID “UNFAILINGLY”, AND WAS IN NO WAY THE RESULT OF ME STARTING TO WRITE “INVARIABLY” AND THEN CHANGING MY MIND.

    11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Sometimes I think it would be good to have an approve/agree button on the page, the agree counter would put a whole tribe of whirling dervishes to shame.”

      Well, that’s what the Twitter and Facebook and Reddit buttons are for…

    12. Brad Millar says:

      another Scottish born rogue blinded by English gold hence his disdain for his ain folk and the country of his birth.

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “another Scottish born rogue blinded by English gold hence his disdain for his ain folk and the country of his birth.”

      Actually the angry businessman was born in England. I didn’t mention it in the piece because it’s not relevant and it’d just give people an excuse to scream “ANTI-ENGLISHNESS!” again and try to distract attention from the point.

    14. RogueCoder says:

      Excellent stuff, Rev. Of course, the attention-seeking businessman will puff and blow a load of hot air and dismiss anything that threatens his pretty wee Excel graph, so the war of words will continue. Quite why he’s expending so much energy attacking a book published for the referendum which took place over a year ago and they won is a mystery; I guess some people just can’t be nice winners.

      A key point which I think needs to be made is that the businessman bases his “analysis” exclusively on GERS figures – as, to be fair, almost all commentary on the Scottish economy is. But this is a fallacy. GERS was originally conceived as a propaganda tool, as economists and GERS experts Jim and Margaret Cuthbert point out here: http://www.cuthbert1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/papers%201/GERS%20sixth%20draft%2010%208%202011.doc, https://www.google.co.uk/

      ‘The motivation for producing the initial GERS was political. GERS had been commissioned by the Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland, Ian Lang: and this is what he said about it, in a leaked memorandum to John Major:
      “I judge that it is just what is needed at present in our campaign to maintain the initiative and undermine the other parties. This initiative could score against all of them.”’

      The original GERS left a LOT to be desired, and was essentially a fudge with many serious flaws, as the Cuthberts go on to point out. But in 2007 it was seriously overhauled and many failings addressed. It’s still not great, but substantially better than the one-sided propaganda tool created by the Tories.

      Anyway – here’s the key point; GERS is only good for making retrospective performance observations on the devolution settlement. Since 40% of all spending is on reserved matters and attributed to Scotland mostly pro-rata (not always good as there are substantial differences in e.g. life expectancy between Scottish and UK population), GERS tells us NOTHING about what FFA or an independent Scotland’s finances would look like. GERS also only shows income and expenditure; it doesn’t say anything about policy, or the performance of the wider economy.

      If I can put this in a simple analogy, using GERS to make “predictions” about Scotland as an independent country is a bit like making your career choices based ONLY on what you spend on shopping in Tesco. Ignore all the other costs like mortgage, energy, transportation, pension and so on; and any skills or qualifications you posses which may advantage your career prospects.

      Some of us think that that is a pretty stupid thing to do – yet it’s essentially what the businessman and his angry unionist chums are trying to shove e down our throats.

    15. crisiscult says:

      seems persuasive, but I’ve been reading some of the comments on MSM articles about Wings’ fine by Electoral Commission and I now realise I’m just a tin hat wearing conspiracy nut/cult devotee and so by believing this article, I’m just proving how lost I am. Oh well, back to the Daily Mail, Herald, and Record for me.

    16. Craig says:

      So basically you’re saying all Kev needs is a hug?

    17. Macart says:

      Well dissected and sourced as usual.

      I suspect those angry unionists aren’t so much fighting last year’s referendum so much as defending the result. Supposedly unequivocal statements and promises, guarantees no less in some circles, made by Both BT and HMG collapse almost daily as time and events move on.

      They need something to hang their hat on I suppose, but are finding the pegs available to do so are increasingly shoogly.

      That other shoe is beginning to drop and there will come a time when BT and HMG will have a LOT of explaining to do to the electorate.

    18. Big Jock says:

      The question then is what motivates Scots to despise their own nation! I will never understand when a fellow countryman, tells me our nation is a basket case! I don’t want to be part of their world of self delusion and inverted hatred. Oh such a sight to see a Scotsman on the make!

    19. Sharny Dubs says:

      Brilliant …. again!!

    20. James says:

      Informative article.
      Thanks for this detailed post.

    21. crisiscult says:

      The businessman in question was chatting to me on twitter and was polite enough, unlike some of the really demented unionists; or at least the businessman doesn’t throw out Nazi/Fascist analogies constantly, which makes him appear more sane.

      Anyway, what I found a bizarre exchange was when he was basically telling me that the UK gov and Better together made zero concrete promises for Scotland to stay in the Union, while Yes and Scottish Gov did. I accept this so far (e.g. Scottish Gov insisted there would be a currency union and we could say they ‘promised’ we’d use the pound after independence), but he went on to say that the ‘Yes’ side could be assessed on those promises (despite them remaining contingent on independence i.e. which, em, hasn’t happened!), but ‘No’ could in no way be judged or assessed. For me that is a classic case of someone emotionally trying to argue against Scottish independence, rather than someone who is looking at this objectively. I’d like to read his heart pourings about why he’s so emotionally against independence. Can someone interview him again?

    22. RogueCoder says:

      Actually, there’s a far better analogy:

      “You can’t be a doctor or a lawyer because your performance as a checkout assistant suggests that you don’t earn enough”.

    23. Dr Jim says:

      If a thing could be made clearer I don’t see any other way than this
      Round of applause Stu, although the mission you’ve been on has certainly taken a sharp upturn amongst the “Angry Unionists”

      Our rulers are becoming more than agitated in their desire to prevent a referendum that hasn’t even been proposed

      This excitement you’re causing amongst our betters is all the more entertaining as you’re doing it all from your BATH

      Removing the grime from British Politics?

    24. Fred says:

      Did Oor Anabel make any meaningful contribution in the Lords debate anent screwing the deserving poor?

    25. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Stu says

      “In looking to the future the angry Unionists also deliberately ignore the fact that the whole point of independence is to do things differently. Their figures are unfailingly based on an independent Scotland pursuing the same failed policies and spending plans pursued under the stewardship of the UK – which have left Scotland lumbered with a large share of the UK’s vast (and still growing) £1.5 trillion debt and the crippling interest payments on it, and a shattered manufacturing economy.”

      That is the really important bit. That is why we shouldn’t waste our time getting bogged down on bogus economic arguments on figures produced by our enemies out of a Scottish economy trapped in a bust UK state

    26. Scott Borthwick says:

      Excellent as always. Many thanks.

      I have to say, whilst it can be somewhat wearisome at times, overall it’s generally very amusing to watch the poor unionists peeking out from their bunker and repeatedly screaming, “It’s over! Move on!”

      I, for one, have moved on. Unlike them, I am no longer discussing last year’s referendum. I am focusing on the next.

    27. Davy says:

      Great article Stu, you really delivered the goods with that one.

      As regards Andrew Neil and his ilk (proud scots BUT) is there any other nation in this world that has so many of it’s so-called own people, prepared to down and miscall the hopes and expectations of their home country and its citzens.

      I have a uncle and auntie down in Kent still call themselves Scots, but any sign of independence their spouting the daily mail in all directions as though it is the gospel. They have spent 50 years down in Kent and appear up for a week every 2 – 4 years and they think they know Scotland, they know shite.

      So why should we tolerate this lies and decit fae bloody earse’s like Andrew Neil, mare power to your elbow Stu keep showing them up for the lying bastards that they are.

    28. Petra says:

      Brilliant Stu. To my mind this is the best, and probably most influential piece, you have ever written (since I started visiting the site).

      Why not send a copy of this to Andrew Neil, Andrew Marr, all newspapers, STV, BBC etc etc. See if any of them have the guts / decency to publish this, debate, refute or whatever.

      Apologies now for going O/T

      Thanks for the many interesting and informative links posted previously Nana. How much of that will be reported by the MSM such as the data outlined in the Independent?

      ‘Malnutrition and other ‘Victorian’ diseases including scurvy, scarlet fever, cholera and whooping cough have increased since 2010 (a rise of 50% in 4 years): Soaring in England ‘due to food poverty and cuts. Parts of London have higher rates of tuberculosis than Rwanda or Iraq, according to a report by the London Assembly. ………. While the rate of infection among UK-born Londoners has risen, it has fallen among those born abroad.’

      It also looks as though Zionist Adam Tomkins, Jim Murphy Vice President of the UK branch of the CIA backed Henry Jackson Society and JKR’s (et al) noses will be put out of joint with hundreds of academics, boycotting Israels aggressive policies against Palestinians, totally disagreeing with the stance they are taking on the horrendous Israeli / Palestinian situation.

      Rodney Shakespeare Professor of Economics goes as far as to say that JKR is a Zionist who is ‘’hand in glove with Saudi Arabia and between them they are now promoting Daesh and Isil leading to the floods of refugees coming into Europe with huge political consequences’’.

      So interesting. Just posting it again Nana.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnTqVOdQ0c0&feature=youtu.be

      This country (Better Together UK) is in total meltdown between one thing and another.

      Osborne’s reduction of Corporation Tax, from 20% to 18% by 2020, now means it’s one of the lowest in the World (already lowest rate in the G20) but not low enough for him / his family members it would seem!

      Any wonder we’re all pulling our hair out in sheer anger and bl**dy frustration at these blatantly arrogant, narcissistic Politicians who are basically sticking two fingers up at everyone and it seems that there’s little we can do about it …… for now.

      Chunky Mark’s latest video: OMG!!! George Osborne Family Business pays £0 Corp Tax on £200Million #Austerity

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us5Vx_ttbOo

      PS Happy (belated) birthday Stu. I hope you have a fabulous year. The singing voice isn’t great on this but it’s the thought that counts. Also hope I’ve got your age right!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncjiGoxhiXA

    29. John Sellars says:

      Superb article Stuart,

      Intelligently written as it rises with such clarity against the background heat of all this snarling chatter.

      Clearly, the WBB is still seen as a threat to a failing Unionist cause. You (and indeed we) don’t need to defend your work as it withstands all tests thrown at it.

      Splendid work.

    30. Bob Mack says:

      One of your best Rev.
      You have an unequalled gift of putting the most complex of subjects into a much simpler abstract.
      This is not just a counterpoint to the too poor argument, it demolishes it completely and puts it beyond debate,

      I trust John Swinney and the SNP to recreate a different society in Scotland by making different choices on our journey into the future.

      I wish I had half your skill .Respect to one of the icons of the independance movement.

      Just you be aware Rev that you are becoming a figure of note, and as such, will be under ever closer and closer scrutiny. In my opinion you are perhaps the greatest threat faced by the Establishment in the matter of the Union.
      I admire the SNP and many others,but you are definitely without peer in our battle to be free of England.

    31. Wulls says:

      articles like this are the reason I used to buy “quality” newspapers.
      Since they started ( and are still competing in) their race to the bottom Wings is one of the very few sources that can do this.
      I used to think the Sunday Sport had won the race but it seems every once reputable paper is trying to outdo them albeit sans tits. Unless you count Neil.

    32. msean says:

      Well said,and angry unionist sounds like a twitter parody.

    33. Petra says:

      Oh my God I don’t know how that happened!

      Wrong youtube (birthday) video Stu. Should have been this one.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4PdDFgbKxg

    34. ArtyHetty says:

      Fab article, I will have to memorise and quote to any unionists I happen to meet. Well I hope it’s ok to print it and highlight some of it.

      Re; BigJock@11.18am

      Well, in answer to your question, it has been a long, persistant and orchestrated attempt by the establishment and politicians, to portray Scotland as a complete and utter basket case. And they have succeeded.

      I picked up a book in a charity shop recently, ‘The Scots’ Crisis of Confidence’. By Carol Craig, 2003,by ‘Big Thinking’ books.
      Just dipping into it, and my god I am actually lost for words. Page 13, tells us that, Scotland suffers from, ‘schizophrenia’ and ‘neurosis’. A guy called Tom Nairn, ‘political theorist’ seems to have made a few quid with several books, and an essay titled, ‘ The Three Dreams of Scottish Nationalism’. (one quote, the ‘chronic laceration of the Scots mind’ ).

      He wrote, ‘The Red Paper on Scotland’, ‘The Break-up of Britain’, and, ‘After Britain’.

      The Jekyll and Hyde thing seems to feature somewhat. Looks like the whole book is about Scotland being quite simply, mad, irrational and incapable of anything, particularly politics. Those pesky nats again, nationalism in particular features in T Nairns bunkum.

      Before my blood pressure gets very high, I cannot bare to look at the book much longer. Does anyone want it? 300 pages of telling us that we are all illogical, emotional basket cases.

      I guess the serious side being that is what they have been telling Scotland for centuries, it will take a bit more work to ditch that kind of stuff, but we are getting there and that is what the ukok establishment are terrified of.

    35. Chitterinlicht says:

      Great article and well timed.

      The increasingly public foaming at the mouth by certain unionists can only be linked to the fact that they are terrified and independence is inevitable.

      This could ‘all’ have be done so differently. in a mature civilised way the UK could have debated constitutional change respectfully and for the benefit of all.

      But unionist parties killed that with project fear. Problem is they cannot replay almost any of their lines again.

      Only currency issue still worries me (no me but others fears about it)

      Chins up -big thanks to Wings

    36. Sinky says:

      A great article and another reason why Wings performs an invaluable service by supplying the kind of factual information you can’t get on the BBC / MSM.

      We need more analysis of the effect of lower oil prices on the Scottish economy in order to respond to the “we dodged a bullet” brigade.

      The SNP seems reluctant to get into this argument but its spokespersons on TV and Radio need to be far better equipped to state the positive case for Scotland’s economy.

    37. The Man in the Jar says:

      I have given up arguing about the economy with unionists. My take on it is that the UK economy is so complex and so convoluted that you can point the economist of your choice at the figures and they will come up with whatever answer that you ask for.

      But if anyone tries to tell me that Scotland one of the most resource rich countries in the world with a highly educated population will turn into the next Somalia within months of independence well they can f**k off.

    38. Brotyboy says:

      @RogueCoder

      Thanks for the link to the Cuthberts’ piece, it’s very informative and more detailed than the video @PoliticsScot tweeted the other day in response to the Wings/Andrew Neil kerfuffle.

      I’d recommend everyone have a look at it and so I repost it here, with my gratitude.

      http://www.cuthbert1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/papers%201/GERS%20sixth%20draft%2010%208%202011.doc, https://www.google.co.uk/

    39. Bob Mack says:

      @Arty Hetty,

      We have had 300 years of this, let alone 300 pages.

      Perhaps you have a coal fire that needs paper to light?

    40. sensibledave says:

      Rev – Main Post

      I have made the point, a number of times, that almost everyone in politics seems to feel that “truth” of a particular situation or position, needs to spun, exaggerated, distorted, misrepresented and ultimately downright lied about – in order to make a point, or to persuade someone of a particular point of view.

      Your spat with Andrew Neil, based upon what I have seen and read, appears to be a “slam dunk” for you. Mr Neil started his interview, as is so often the case these days, with an attempt to put his interviewee on the back foot with a particular premise and then, in quite an assertive manner, keep them there. Paxman, often used a similar approach. In this case though, the premise, as far as I can see, was wrong.

      Based upon the above, and many of my previous comments on similar subjects, you will note that I have the ability to be objective. I have taken issue here a number of times though with individuals that believe, and claim, that the pro-indy parties, including the SNP, do not stoop to such levels and do not engage in such tactics.

      To put a number of threads together, at the back end of last week, there was much discussion about EVEL – what it was about, and what its impact might be. I was pointed to the SNP web site and the pages on the SNP policy with respect to EVEL. In all fairness, a more distorted picture of the “truth” would be hard to write. There are statements there that are designed only to mislead and misrepresent, and others which are pure untruths. Anyone on Wings that was involved in the threads last week would now know that – but anyone else might read the information and, based upon their allegiance to the SNP, believe everything that is written – and be very p****d off as a result.

      In that particular case, it’s not the MSM, the BBC or a BBC hack that is doing the bald-faced deception – it is the party of government in Scotland. All of this makes no particular point other than to prove what we already knew. Everyone involved in politics lies (apart from me).

    41. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      You have your objective view,I have mine. They are not the same.

    42. DerekM says:

      take that ya bams !!!

      Great work Rev 🙂

      of course they are going to try and discredit you its what they do,but unfortunately for them they can jump up and down and scream as loud as they want,we will still tell them to get lost,since we have learned not only to check sources and investigate on our own to come to our own conclusions but to question everything they say,and who`s fault would that be for telling us porky pies and getting caught,if they had been honorable to start with then they would never have had to face the wrath of the wingers.

      They can call us liars all they want the boat has already left and the passengers are looking back at the quayside and giving them the bird and saying aye right pull the other one its got bells on it.

      Keep up the great work Rev we have the onions on the run 🙂

    43. Macart says:

      @TMITJ

      Pretty much. 🙂

    44. heedtracker says:

      At the very least, the angry unionist cant say its not all been laid out for them right here today. They will though.

      Just shows also how giant UKOK debt can be used to attack Scottish democracy, FUD wise. Much like how they used their nuke weapons like Trident to terrify, vote NO or lose 19,000 Faslane WMD jobs, they said.

    45. ArtyHetty says:

      Bob Mack

      Thanks, I will need some fuel for the allotment fire soon, unless anyone wishes to read this twaddle before then of course. It was expensive originally 14.99 quid. Obviously posed as an academic book. Chilling indeed to think sociologist and pyschologist students were likely recommended this. Bloody hell.

    46. Col says:

      The BBC is nothing more than a hostile foreign media within our country. In no way can it claim to have Scotland`s interests at heart but then you may say the clue is in the name.

      Only a Scottish Broadcasting Corporation can rebalance this democratic deficit but of course Westminster says no. I wonder why?

      The BBC continuously jumps on smears and lies used by the rabid unionist press in Scotland to give stories gravitas which clearly exposes the agenda they are pushing and I wish our elected politicians would call them out on this. It`s not for a lack of opportunity that`s for sure!

      Also their choice of omitting damaging stories to unionist parties and their associates is very telling. They leave open goals all the time but they are not being taken advantage of enough for my liking and I`m sure many others who watch on in frustration.

    47. Alastair says:

      Another Zinger.
      Your maturing with age.

    48. Brad Millar says:

      I always thought Andrew Neil was Scottish with his accent, either way he is a Scotland hating bawbag

      wait just seen he was born in Paisley brought up in the Glenburn area

    49. Alan Weir says:

      This bit by Rev Stu is particularly on the money:

      ‘that figure still understates the reality significantly, because of course Scotland would have enjoyed considerable additional benefits from that £68bn surplus, the larger part of which accrued early in the period.’

      The Cuthberts, in fact, have calculated where we would likely be had we had independence or FFA in the late 70s (one or other highly likely had we not been lied to over the oil by the Labour Government), assuming same public expenditure but control over our oil revenues (and including the effects of the 2008 banking crisis) and it is about £150 billion in credit, not a similar sized debt as the Unionists claim we owe rUK.

      reidfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Debt.pdf

      An important point to realise is that had we not been sending gigantic oil revenue receipts to Thatcher in the early 80s for it to be pished down the urinals of wine bars in the City of London, we would have been in surplus ever after (again given historic public expenditure and assuming conservative figures about returns on the oil surplus) even when the oil price dropped.

      The SNP leadership should indeed, as Sinky says, make more of this sort of thing. They do talk of FFA requiring appropriate fiscal arrangements when addressing the black hole in the finances argument. They should fill that out by insisting that when assessing net liability (and whether we should be paying £3-4 billion a year in debt interest to London or whether they should be paying us compensation for mis-selling the oil to us) those historic figures are taken into account. If the unionist response is dry your eyes, all in the past so forget it, the response should be same holds for our supposed obligation to UK debt. That changes the ‘black hole’ in the public finances drastically, whatever the oil price.

    50. The Man in the Jar says:

      @sensibledave

      And there’s your problem. not living in Scotland you miss so much of the detail. Yes the SNP`s ultimate goal is independence and they know that the only route is by providing good honest governance. Yes they screw up now and again (nobody is perfect)but the most important thing is that they try. Why on earth do you think that they do so well in elections and in the polls.

      You should try living here rather than getting your views from the red white and blue tinted media. On second thoughts dont!

    51. RogueCoder says:

      So if I can sum up sensibledave’s position, it seems to be:

      “Okay, you have a point here – BUT SNP BAAAAD!!!”

      We are grateful for such insightful and helpful analysis on why we are “Better Together”.

    52. sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack @12.09

      Ah but, my objective view is objective – that’s the difference Bob. I have no loyalty to a particular party. Yes, invariably I end up voting Tory as being the best of a bad lot. Only last week, I wrote here on Wings that I had no faith in the fairness of some the proposed Welfare cuts – and I am therefore happy that the Government had a problem in the Lords.

      Can you give me an example of bad SNP policy or lies Bob?

    53. Morag says:

      One of the picture captions has a semi-colon where there should be an apostrophe. Just saying.

    54. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: you will note that I have the ability to be objective

      Hilarious remark.

      But he’s not here to make us laugh. He’s here to divert discussion from Neil’s preposterous certainty, and the unionists who would have Neil as their poster boy.

    55. Glamaig says:

      This is a fantastic post. Lack of this information, caused by the UK Establishment and media lying to Scotland, is the number one reason we lost the referendum.

      Its the most important post ever. Basically if everybody in Scotland reads it, we’ll win next time. It’s as simple as that.

    56. Jim Mitchell says:

      o/t, in fact way off topic, I see the daily record is actually allowing some political comments from it’s on line readers today and it’s all down to you, so first of all, well done you, as for the article covered that’s different cause I somehow get the feeling that you won’t be on their Christmas card list!

      First in with a comment was our old pal Grahamski, (actually it’s been so long , I thought he must be dead),

      Now I may be wrong here but It seems to me that he has lifted most of his comments from a well known daily paper, word for word.

      See if you can read it without laughing!

      59 minutes ago
      GrahamskiFalkirk

      The Electoral Commission has fined the tartan-truther hateblog, Wings, for what seems to be a fairly minor infringement in electoral law. So what? His mistakes in accounting pale into insignificance compared with his mistakes in projecting a separate Scotland’s finances. For the truth of the matter is that if Scotland had voted YES last year as advocated by this hateblog then John Swinney would now be facing the problem of filling a black hole of £8bn in a separate Scotland’s finances. Along with trying to raise funds for a country without its own currency he would be considering which taxes to raise, what services to cut, what schools or hospitals to close and by how much he would have to cut pensions. That is the reality of the situation; Scotland dodged a bullet last year and those like Wings who urged us to step in front of it made far bigger mistakes than failing to account for some spending during the campaign.

    57. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible Dave,

      I think you are referring to, or making the comparison to, that political persuasion is similar to a profession of faith? Yes there are similarities between politics and religion, and yes political parties can be seen as a broad church.
      But looking for truth is difficult in politics, as by definition how one interprets the events or policies of the day are as much a result of the observers nature or nurture, their life experiences if you will.
      For decades the westminster establishment has been arranged against the right for Scots to the masters of their own destiny. the use of propaganda, although omnipresent in the Scottish political arena, has been stepped up to a shrill scream. Ridiculous untruths have been propagated, for evidence look at the tomorrow’s world sketch posted here from the 70’s this at the same time as a top secret report was being shredded in whitehall that said the exact opposite. So yes you are correct in your assumption that when the truth will out, or when you find out that you have been lied to and played for a fool, tempers will rise!
      Word of warning on EVEL you are incorrect to say this only a SNP driven issue, the labour party, liberals and some tories have also questioned the wisdom of this move.

      Sensible it is my democratic right to seek the best political outcome for my country, a country that westminster commissioned experts (sic) to say no longer exists, But England continues to exist. I will pursue this lawful democratic course, all the while acknowledging the right of unionist supporters to wish for the retention of the status quo.

      David why don’t you concentrate in building your new jerusalem in England, our do you, as I do just love the Scots, every hairy arsed one of them!

    58. Giving Goose says:

      Something that struck me in relation to the obvious nervousness exhibited by Unionists is what the London/Project Fear reaction may be.

      I have some thoughts about that. I’ll try (probably badly) to articulate them.

      My first thought revolves around the recent ballyhoo about the Lords getting in the way of the Tories plans for Tax credits. I think that this whole carry on has been very carefully stage managed. Stick with me on this – One of the core tenets of the Conservative Party is the preservation of the British Social Structure, including the place of the House of Lords within this structure.

      What’s not to like, from a Tory view point, with the Lords exerting it’s muscle on the tax credits dispute?

      I strongly suspect that any review into Parliament’s workings could be turned into an A+ report card marking for the House of Lords, with the conclusion that it should be preserved and strengthened, i.e. UK Democracy weakened.

      My second thought is, looking at the obvious realignment in UK foreign policy with the kowtowing to China and the nauseating control exerted, via the Met Police, on any dissent by protesters of the Chinese president’s visit; Is the UK going to take a lead from China and start to use more repressive measures against it’s own self interests?

      Even the USA may have a case in feeling that the UK is looking East rather to lustfully;

      http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/10/26/has-the-united-states-lost-its-best-friend-to-its-biggest-rival/

      So what’s the connection with Andrew Neil and other angry Unionists?

      Well, if you consider that the Unionists won the 1st round in Scotland’s debate for Independence by basically just lying to the Scottish electorate, and with the self-same Scottish electorate slowly waking up to the fact that they (the people of Scotland) have been well and truly had, then round 2 is not the inevitable win that Unionists assume it to be.

      A straight forward Project Fear rerun probably has little chance of success second time around, so what to do if you’re a wanna be friend of China that wishes to keep the UK and it’s institutions intact?

      You take a leaf out of the book of your newest best friend and do as they do.

      Scotland should be very worried indeed.

    59. heedtracker says:

      Everyone involved in politics lies (apart from me).

      Sensible you were asked over and over last week, why EVEL and why was EVEL NOT offered/mentioned/proposed/ in the UKOK Project Fear vote NO or else campaign, last year? Yet you dodged it all, shock.

      So sensible, objectively you should add, everyone in politics lies but only angry unionists, you, duck away from any questions that might not suit the huge and ongoing fraud on Scotland.

      It’s very different for Wos, like today, because WoS has to be straightforward and open, WoS has to remain what it is, a political blog in Bath, facing a giant wall of the most god awful red and blue tory Britnat propaganda, like what you waffle away about.

      You’re just another FUDster sensibledave. Hows that working out for you UKOK types, electorally n shit? Triumphant in England, bombs in your Scotland region.

      Oh and red toryboy world even blame Scottish voters for blue Tory UK.gov too, just for luck.

    60. ClanDonald says:

      And imagine how many more billions we could have saved if we hadn’t been contributing to a share of their trident, illegal foreign wars and London infrastructure.

    61. Les Wilson says:

      You excell at this stuff Stu, what more can I say, I have said it many times.

      Yes, they are bad winners, fear is still in their hearts, losing their cash cow, makes them irrational. Like dogs with rabies, they do not know what to do. So the result, everything Scottish is bad.

      The fear will rise, and the rabid dogs will start foaming at the mouth, a sure sign their end is near.

    62. Patrician says:

      I seem to remember reading somewhere that the UK average spend figure commonly used, actually excludes London spending. This of course depresses the average figure

    63. Alan Mackintosh says:

      One thought on the Ashcroft point that the low oil price has benefits in the knock on effect of lower fuel costs for businesses and consumers which offsets the decrease in the oil and gas receipts. Don’t forget that the vast bulk of the cost of fuel is tax and Vat. The win-win situation in an Indy Scot would be a higher oil price with the ability to vary the tax take on the finished fuel down to ameliorate the higher price thus decreasing the impact on home country users.(Note to other wingers, do not bleat to me about “climate change” in reply)

      I did have a quick look at Norway where fuel costs seem to be on a par/slightly higher than here, but the income over there is higher so relatively spaeking fuel is more affordable.

    64. schrodingers cat says:

      except the bbc isn’t meant to be pro union, it is meant to be impartial

      that is its founding principle because by law everyone is oblidged to pay for it

    65. David says:

      When one goes off-topic, like, say ‘sensibledave’ does today, one really ought to signal this to other readers by prefacing one’s comment with ‘O/T’ or ‘on a different subject…’, or ‘oh look a squirrel’.

      (The last is my personal favourite.)

      Today’s post is about the fundamental decades-long strength of the Scottish economy. This strength is admitted by UK government’s own people, and proved by independent analysts.

      There is no getting round the fact that Scotland’s economy is fundamentally strong, and has always been a positive contributor to the UK. Unionists may tie themselves up in knots, but they cannot deny that having Scotland in the UK is financially GOOD for the UK. And therefore, if Scotland chooses to leave the UK, then that will be financially BAD for the UK.

      There it is, unionists and No-voters: the truth hurts, but the truth shall set you free.

    66. Grouse Beater says:

      Dusting down my old, faded BBC producer hat, chewed (by me) at the edges – what’s missing from television political programmes is …

      An uninterrupted hour fronted by an informed, erudite, benign questioner with one or two quests around a desk for a single issue show, he or she NOT there to interrogate, but to encourage the guests to open out about their themselves, their vision, and develop their ideas.

      That way allows viewers to gain a deeper understanding of issues, or see the flaws, gauge the character of the guest(s) beyond the shallow crap dished out by self-appointed ‘hard talk’ head bangers.

      Can you imagine the old guard gruff interviewers when they get home, unable to drop the hard man act? “I hope you are not cooking what you cooked last time, wife! It was inedible. Is that not so? Answer the question. I will put it to you again.”

      Television news has turned itself into drama.

      There. Must. Be. Conflict. For. Viewer Numbers. And. Next Day. Press. Headlines.

      Where is Foghorn Galloway when you need him?

    67. DerekM says:

      och Dave away and take your pretendy liberal ass someplace else.

      Your country is a cesspit of lies even you admit its not great by saying you voted Tory as they were the best of a bad bunch.

      Well we vote SNP because they are the only party who stand above the cesspit,they are not perfect far from it but compared to the rest the are miles in front.

      Now instead of coming on here and bad mouthing the only half descent political party in the UK why dont you get up of your ass and do something about the bad lot that run you ,or are you just like all other Englishmen full of hot air and beaten into submission by the aristocracy hmmm ?

    68. Nuada says:

      I hate that flamin’ dog. And Brian Griffin too.

    69. Andrew McLean says:

      Les Wilson

      yes they are bad winners, it the bad karma of knowing you lied and cheated to win, thats why they are so unhappy, and why YES continues to go upwards.

      On that september night we saw the country that the unionists campaigned for! Fascist thugs in George Square, or drunkenly parading round the city terrorising young ladies, tells you all you need to know about bitter together and the unionists wet dream!

    70. sensibledave says:

      Andrew McLean 12.37

      You wrote: “Word of warning on EVEL you are incorrect to say this only a SNP driven issue, the labour party, liberals and some tories have also questioned the wisdom of this move.

      Andrew, my previous comments had absolutely nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of EVEL. It was about parties lying – and I used the SNP web pages as an example of, in this case, the SNP, i.e. the Government of Scotland, unequivocally lying through its teeth, live to the world via the internet. My point was that there is nothing special or unusual about that (sadly) and that everyone in politics feels compelled to do it. Whoever is caught lying usually uses examples of their opposition lying to justify their own lies – which is sad in my view.

      You wrote “Sensible it is my democratic right to seek the best political outcome for my country, a country that westminster commissioned experts (sic) to say no longer exists, But England continues to exist. I will pursue this lawful democratic course, all the while acknowledging the right of unionist supporters to wish for the retention of the status quo”

      It is indeed you democratic right to do whatever you want to do. Its a shame that you on your side, and your opposition (which does not include me) appear to support mendacity as a means though. I have accepted that is just the way it is – but I will continue to call out hypocrisy when I see it.

    71. I’ll make it really easy for anyone concerned about crushing falls in oil receipts.

      In an independent Scotland, 90% of $45/barrel ($40.50) is worth over three times more than 9% of $140/barrel ($12.60) as part of the UK.

      So if Scotland was subsidizing rUK when it was $20/barrel, just imagine how much wealth is sucked up by London when it’s currently at $47 for Brent crude.

    72. sensibledave says:

      David 12:51 pm

      You wrote “When one goes off-topic, like, say ‘sensibledave’ does today, one really ought to signal this to other readers by prefacing one’s comment with ‘O/T’ or ‘on a different subject…’, or ‘oh look a squirrel”

      Indeed David, and if I was going off topic, I would do that.

      However, I was responding specifically to the subject matter i.e. people lie, politicians lie, governments lie. The Tories lie and the SNP Lie to try and achieve their political aims – which is sad.

    73. Bob Mack says:

      Having lived and worked in this great country of Scotland and in particular Glasgow for most of my life ,I am entitled to make several judgements.
      I have known and voted Labour most of my life both prior to and after devolution. I have known when Conservative was an acceptable vote to my fellow Scots.

      I have lived and worked under all types of political administrations.

      The SNP may well not be perfect,but they are most definitely the best there has ever been in Scotland .I wonder why ?

      The answer is fairly simple.Their focus is not the Greater National Need, nor politically driven by the requirements of the rest of the UK. Their focus is Scotland,and Scotland only.

      People living in England perhaps do not know as much about
      this as me and others. It is our experience that tells us the difference. You have not that same experience if you live in England.

    74. mealer says:

      That’s an absolute cracker REV.

      Remember when Mr ASDA was summoned to a meeting with the PM and came out of that meeting saying he was going to put his prices up in Scotland? And the red Tory leader Lamont was pictured outside an ASDA store with a daft like grin across her usually greetin’ puss? I wonder if we should be pressing ASDA for their current position on independence.

    75. Petra says:

      Why try to chase individuals who don’t agree with us off of this site? I for one don’t want to be reading one post after another whereby everyone is in agreement. It smacks of narrow minded cliquish behaviour and stifles healthy debate.

      We are also supposed to be encouraging prior no voters or undecided people to come over to our side. If I was in one of these categories I wouldn’t dare venture on here and to be honest this kind of attitude would put me off voting yes at all in future.

    76. sensibledave says:

      DerekM 12:54 pm

      You wrote “och Dave away and take your pretendy liberal ass someplace else.”

      … actually quite funny Derek! On a point of accuracy tough, my liberal ass is not “pretendy”.

      Then you wrote “Your country is a cesspit of lies”, and “we vote SNP because they are the only party who stand above the cesspit” and “or are you just like all other Englishmen full of hot air and beaten into submission by the aristocracy hmmm ?”

      Not quite so funny Derek – just a shallow, insulting, stereotyping of 53 million people – not cool Derek.

    77. Angra Mainyu says:

      Rev, top stuff. You’re a legend, our very own living legend. God only knows where we’re be without —- I won’t even say it.

    78. Ruby says:

      Jim Mitchell

      Grahamski is a Very Angry Unionist. He’s probably the most Angry Unionist on the planet.

      Grahamski’s anger has been building up since 2007 he probably reached boiling point in 2015 and I expect he is about to explode.

      It’s must be difficult for these ‘Slabber NObbers’ to come to terms with the fact that they have been well and truly shafted.

      I would love to know who Grahamski is!

      I’m convinced all these ‘UKOK Better Together Angry Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ are politicians or perhaps BBC ‘journalists’ or whatever folk like Andrew Neil are called.

      The question of why so many Angry Unionists hate hate hate Scotland is very interesting.

    79. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 1.18 pm

      Agree with you 100%.

    80. K1 says:

      Brilliant Stu, you’re timing is exquisite.

      Given WoS’s high profile in the msm right now, this in fact was the perfect moment to unleash this article on the WBB.

      I can’t help but admire your utter contempt for polite discourse with the frothing loons and how you draw them in, as they react to a sweary word hear and a flippant dismissal there.

      By those means you achieve our ends. Mair publicity.

      I would be very interested in what the stats are for this article today?

      O/T

      Stop ‘biting’ people, Heed? you’re a sucker for his shtick, and as much as I adore your shtick, there’s nae point in your indulgence of him. It ruins the thread’s subject continuity, which is deliberate.

    81. Ruby says:

      Petra

      What would you suggest be done? Should everyone agree with sensible dave? Bow down to our Imperial Masters?

      What would be the point of trying to convince ‘sensible dave’ of anything when he doesn’t have a vote in Scotland?

      Personally I’ve had enough of these “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves” who can’t even articulate their aims & objectives for posting on Scottish political forums.

    82. heedtracker says:

      However, I was responding specifically to the subject matter i.e. people lie, politicians lie, governments lie. The Tories lie and the SNP Lie to try and achieve their political aims – which is sad.

      So where is this WoS blog alone lying sensible?

      Anyhoo, another UKOK double whammy is the fact that not only has Scotland subsidised the UK, its been controlled by the most fervent UKOK unionists.

      Has it been a successful reign of UKOK unionism in Scotland sensible, or is it really all over for SLabour’s right to shit all over us?

      Electorally it certainly looks like its all over for SLab now. Currently we have Kezia Dugdale and BBC Scotland desperately trying to fool Scotland into believing that SLabour is independent from Labour, again.

      Why would BBC/SLab be doing that sensibledave?

      or

      Economically, why are house prices and pay so low in many parts of Scotland and so high in the south east of England and so on.

      Or why is England’s transport infrastructure so far in advance of Scotland and where does the money come from to pay for it all?

      Do you see why you’re coming across as just another angry unionist fraud sensibledave?

    83. Lesley-Anne says:

      No Jimmy Andra can not come out to play at the moment … he has been a very naughty boy and been sent to bed! 😀

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af9EHtQMMc4

    84. Ken500 says:

      What about the illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud (in London and the Midlands). Thatcher’s illegal and secret taking the Oil revenues and cancelling a pipe line wasting the equivalent of £Billions of Gas.

      The Unionists believe what they want to believe despite the concrete evidence. Westminster manipulation, secrecy and lies. Scotland would have been Independent years ago,if the truth had been known.

    85. Hobbit says:

      The problem is that the past years, when Scotland contributed more, thanks to oil tax revenues, to the Exchequer than what is spent here, is a ‘sunk cost’, or ‘sunk revenue’. An iScotland would not be easily able to claim past over-contribution as part of its fiscal settlement.

      Oil certainly benefitted the Aberdeen economy, if not Scotland as a whole, and will continue to do so. But the state of the overall economy is not quite the same as the state of an iScotland’s government accounts; and I don’t really think that there is much scope to re-organise government expenditure, much less cut it. (The exception would be defence). There is, of course, a huge appetite for spending more money, in every area imaginable.

      And don’t even think about repudiating rUK debt – that would guarantee that no-one, but no-one, would lend us money ever again.

    86. Bob Mack says:

      @Petra.
      I sort of agree with you ,but I also read the entranched position of the anti independence contributors,and realise that with some, there is no amount of evidence on Gods earth that would allow them to open their eyes to the truth.

      Perhaps it would be better not to engage with them?

      When I was a young guy ,I had a hell of a fight with a guy who just moved into our street.
      We were both covered in blood ,muck and dirt after rolling about battering each other for half an hour. The things we called each other before,during and after the fight were mindnumbing.

      He was best man at my wedding, and I love him to this day.

    87. Sooz says:

      It may be wee, it may be blue, but by God that book kicks like a shire horse.

      Thanks for this, Rev. This site is my go-to for unpicking the messy tapestry of lies the corporate media and their apologists like to wave. The usual response I get from unionists when we cross keyboards is “but GERS” – they use it as a talisman against the ugly truth like a St Christopher worn to protect them from a 50-foot wall of water about to thunder down on their noggins. The truth is unstoppable.

    88. slackshoe says:

      Will be sharing this with my unionist friends. A few of them have been posting links to Pet Shop Boy’s blog lately, somehow convinced that a few nitpicks about one point actually completely undermine the entire WBB.

    89. Valerie says:

      Fantastic piece of work, Rev. Makes me sad though, when I think where Scotland should be, for her young and old.

      Brad Millar says:
      28 October, 2015 at 12:23 pm
      I always thought Andrew Neil was Scottish with his accent, either way he is a Scotland hating bawbag

      wait just seen he was born in Paisley brought up in the Glenburn area

      I think he went to Paisley Grammar. I went to a secondary school, who were at war with the Grammar, and would pelt the poor Grammarians, with missiles, as our bus passed them, stood at the bus stop.

      That lark earned us a detour into Mill Street polis station (crazy k division), and a stern talking to from whatever unlucky cop that was about.

      We didn’t have phones in them days.

    90. HandandShrimp says:

      It has come to a pretty pass when a life long Tory can’t tell a few fibs.

      No wonder is Wings is hated

      😉

    91. K1 says:

      Aye Petra, I’m all for the No voters enlightening themselves by actually taking on board the genuine case for independence, people like sdave aren’t here to argue the merits of that position.

      You know the subject matter abtl, now read what he wrote, it is completely irrelevant to the thread’s subject and amounts to a snidey SNP bad. I’m done ‘tuning in’ to that frequency.

      We have all attempted to argue with him at various points along the way. His position never alters, and his manner is simply patronising and condescending.

      We have to be discerning…he deliberately riles to derail the subject…as someone else said, ‘oh look a squirrel’ is his only input.

    92. Anagach says:

      Grahamski survived the Falkirk purge and the SNP flood. Poor lad must be in some state.

    93. Lesley-Anne says:

      Just when you think it can NOT get any worse for the folks being forced into using food banks that lying, useless, two faced, hypocritical, arrogant, ignorant, divisive, lecherous, scum of the earth, low life of a bastardly money grabbing Iain Drunken Spliff goes and does this!!!

      https://archive.is/aktqa

      p.s. my partner has just told me NOT to hold back! 😀

    94. David Wallace says:

      @Petra

      Why try to chase individuals who don’t agree with us off of this site? I for one don’t want to be reading one post after another whereby everyone is in agreement. It smacks of narrow minded cliquish behaviour and stifles healthy debate.

      I agree with your general sentiment however, there is a huge difference between someone with a genuinely enquiring mind and an out and out Troll like sensationalistdave…

      The more people respond to the Troll the more posts I have to skip and it ruins continuity.

      Great article that nails it.

      Now being spoiled by Troll side show!

    95. Ruby says:

      Is the Hobbit another Very Angry Unionist who is still fighting the NO Campaign?

      FAO of all Angry Unionist/Slabber NObbers:

      YOU WON THE INDY REF CAMPAIGN! YOUR CON WORKED.

    96. Itchybiscuit says:

      I do appreciate that some posters on Wings try to air the opposing viewpoint. The trouble with that is, Wings was (I presume) set up to debunk and unravel British media propaganda. It doesn’t help those ‘dissenting voices’ that they’re (perhaps unwitting, perhaps not) water-carriers for the very establishment this site was set up to refute.

      It’s no part of an argument to engage in a debate about ‘Problem A’ by banging on about ‘Potential Problem K’. And quoting articles from British media in order to refute an argument against British media makes one look a bit silly.

      Absolutely anyone can log in to Wings and say, ‘I’m a lifelong SNP supporter but…’ while going on to castigate the SNP they purportedly support by quoting nonsense articles full of ‘SNP BAD’. Aye, this is a hypothetical – don’t be looking around to find the person(s) I might be alluding to. ;o)

      I’m merely saying that self-identifying as a supporter of anything at all doesn’t make you a bona fide supporter of it. This is the internet – for some people it’s a point-scoring game but for me it’s about finding out where the truth lies and which lies are just lies.

      Sorry, it’s been a shitty week and my brain’s gone numb…

    97. katherine hamilton says:

      Go gettum, sir!

    98. gus1940 says:

      Excellent stuff.

      Anybody in need of an answer to the old question ‘Why are WM so desperate to hang on to Scotland?’ only needs to read the above article.

    99. DerekM says:

      no Dave it was not ,you yourself said the best of a bad bunch so tell me what are you going to do about it,or like i said are you just going to talk a lot of hot air and accept your country is run by a bunch of aristocratic greedy lying bastards who dont give a monkeys about you or your people or your country for that matter and sit on your backside and accept your lot.

      Well this isnt the English i was taught about,i always though you guys stood up against tyranny but i guess i was wrong.

    100. Iain More says:

      Well that was a well aimed Glesga kiss!

    101. Hobbit says:

      @Ruby, 1.52pm

      Here’s the problem, as I see it; an iScotland would have some huge pressures in its government accounts as it went forward; and if the independence campaign is to secure the substantial majority it needs, then these issues have to be faced up to.

      Geoff Aberdein was recently reported as saying that the SNP lost the independence vote because it failed to convince voters of the economic case for independence. I could hardly call him a Unionist troll.

    102. Iain More says:

      @Hobbit

      Jump in the volcano!

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent article. Certainly on to point people to.

      The following words are an excellent appraisal of what is going on!

      “… a particular group of angry Unionists inexplicably still fighting the referendum campaign despite having won it more than a year ago …. the No side believes a second independence referendum is inevitable, and is terrified that they’ll lose it”

      Their punching has not stopped. They didn’t hear the bell to say round one is over. OK, because they will be all tired out when the bell for round two does ring! We will come out refreshed and fighting, and the match won’t reach a third round. 🙂

    104. gus1940 says:

      The Pavlov’s Dogs of the MSM have leapt upon Rev Stu’s £750 fine by The EC shouting it from the rooftops and on some of the blats generating hundreds of comments.

      Are they so stupid as to not realise that this publicity will have brought thousands if not 100s of thousands of new readers to Wings.

      How much would it have cost to achieve so much press coversge if it had to paid for by advertising? Stu got the lot for a paltry £750 which must be about the bargain of the century.

      Cynics might think that he broke the rules deliberately.

    105. David Wardrope says:

      Great article, and very useful for countering in Twitter “discussions”.

    106. shug says:

      The key question for me is

      Does he question like this because he believes what he is saying or

      Is it BBC policy and instruction to assume the Scottish government is always wrong

    107. K1 says:

      Hehe…Gus…I think he’s a very clever guy.

    108. shug says:

      Fundraiser for the fine

      See what you get

    109. Ruby says:

      Lesley-Anne

      He can’t be serious!

      I have to either get out the kick-boxing kit or do some meditation!

      Bloddy ‘Slabber NObbers’ could they not have voted YES!

      Food Banks being turned into Job Centres I’ve heard it all now!

    110. schrodingers cat says:

      I think this just goes to show the power of wings, the unionists are sh1t scared of this blog atl and btl

      although wings gets no credit, wbb was a game changer

      the quality of the arguments by stu were second to none

      the fact that it was crowd funded in quick time then distributed is a credit to the people who read and support this blog

      and wings is now pre eminent in all pro yes social media

      that is why I have been calling for an official launch of yes2 and the selection of someone to head yes2. I can see the desire for this to happen in all yes social media

      difference this time is that it cannot be the snp who appoint a head or launch yes2

      I can think of no grass roots organization better than wings to be tasked with this

      1. chose someone to head yes2
      2. let him make the “official” launch address
      3. we crowd fund wbb2 (re-why we are not better together) and distribute it

      who elected wingers?…no one…that’s why it is grass roots, neither is it very official, it doesn’t have to be. it just needs to fire the starting gun. the people of Scotland will do the rest

    111. One_Scot says:

      The third most important thing I learnt was that I have all the time in the world for genuine people, as for total bellends, not so much.

      My advice would be, never encourage a bellend.

    112. Paula Rose says:

      @schrodingers cat – good subject to discuss on Off-topic.

    113. Proud Cybernat says:

      Excellent, Rev! I’ll get it all together into a wee video later this week.

      @ Hobbit

      “And don’t even think about repudiating rUK debt …”

      It’s NOT “rUK debt”. It’s UK debt. The legal entity that is the UK legally own the debt. NOT Scotland. Furthermore, it is debt run up by the rUK NOT Scotland. (Read Ashcroft’s comments).

      Now – if you have your nextdoor neighbour running your household budget and they start maxing out your credit card, do you allow them to continue their spending binge, getting you ever more into debt, or, do you do the sensible thing and take the credit card off them and look after things yourself?

      That is Scotland’s predicament and it has to end. And it will end soon(ish).

      O/T
      For those who may have missed my previous videos:

      ‘Kez – The Blunder Years’: http://tinyurl.com/okobcb3

      Andrew Neil debunked: http://tinyurl.com/pmce9g7

      BBC & Corp Media NHS crap debunked: http://tinyurl.com/ps5trcb

    114. mogabee says:

      The biggest non-answered question.

      If Wings/Stu. is so wrong why is he being vilified by unionists and media?

      Almost appears to be a concerted effort to discredit him.

    115. Ruby says:

      Hobbit

      No need to regurgitate everything you “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Con Artists’ said during the Indy Ref. The Indy Ref is over all your hate preaching, scare mongering, media manipulation worked. You won.

      Quite frankly my dear if you Slabber NObbers are feeling guilty because of the methods you used to win well I really don’t give a damn.

      Bye!

    116. Will Podmore says:

      Petra notes, “Osborne’s reduction of Corporation Tax, from 20% to 18% by 2020, now means it’s one of the lowest in the World (already lowest rate in the G20) but not low enough for him / his family members it would seem!”
      Compare: in ‘Scotland’s Future’, the SNP said that its proposed 3 per cent corporation tax cut would lift output by 1.4 per cent, jobs by 1.1 per cent (27,000) and investment by 1.9 per cent – by 2034!
      Si it’s bad when Osborne does it and good when the Scottish Government proposes to do it.

    117. heedtracker says:

      Geoff Aberdein was recently reported as saying that the SNP lost the independence vote because it failed to convince voters of the economic case for independence. I could hardly call him a Unionist troll.

      I’d call just one more tory chancer, Hobbit.

      What about The Vow for gawds sake?

      Why did they hide EVEL until 19 September last year?

      Logic dictates, actually “give” Scotland devo-max and that’s end of YES.

      But its never going to happen.

      Take The Vow, use it fcuk Scotland hard, bish bosh, SNP out, YES finished, SLAb back in charge and its all rule Britannia in their Scotland region, how JC wants it. with an indy SLabour goon show, lol.

      BBC Scotland lunchtime tv headline I caught today, ANOTHER great Scottish fail, this time in NY, NY, cue smirking news gimp, its all down to Nic Sturgeon and SNP bad.

      I think it was Glasgow uni’s crashed and burned trying to open a campus in New York but even so, Project Fear’s gonna getcha ya too small, stupid, poor Scotland, BBC says so.

    118. Onwards says:

      The map on that factcheck page shows a big reason why London fought so hard to keep control over Scotland.

      https://fullfact.org/sites/fullfact.org/files/map%20of%20oil%20Scottish%20gov.JPG

      When sea boundaries are drawn in, and a proportional ‘non-BBC’ map is used, then the total land+sea area of Scotland is far bigger than the rest of the UK.

      http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2011/03/16182005/21

      Scotland has a third of the land area of the UK.
      But Scotland has almost six times as much sea area as land area.

      That’s a huge amount of natural resources for only 8.3% of the population. Not just oil and gas, but wind, wave, fisheries, minerals, sand and gravel, military, security, shipping, leisure etc

      Huge assets for an independent country in charge of its own destiny.

    119. velofello says:

      @ ArtyHetty: I have the book the Scots Crisis of Confidence” by Carol Craig. I guess I’ll have to reread in response to your comments as there was much in the book I agreed with.

      I do recall something about Scots nation being inclined to logical thinking rather than blind patriotism? Skepticism if you like, and arguably why many Scots voted No, the case for Indy was not strong enough for them. I came across much of this during campaigning, “Yes I understand and believe what you are saying, and I’ll look up Wings on the internet, but….”.

      The power and ruthlessness of the Establishment passes over the heads of many.The venomous look on Osborne’s face following the Lords voting should be an awakening of what is to come.

      sensibledave seems to have plenty of time on his hands. Is he one of several perchance?

    120. Petra says:

      @ Ruby says at 1:30 pm ”Petra what would you suggest be done? Should everyone agree with sensible dave? Bow down to our Imperial Masters? What would be the point of trying to convince ‘sensible dave’ of anything when he doesn’t have a vote in Scotland? Personally I’ve had enough of these “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves” who can’t even articulate their aims & objectives for posting on Scottish political forums.”

      I wasn’t referring to Sensible Dave in particular Ruby. And no I wouldn’t agree with anyone that I don’t actually agree with nor do I bow down to anyone.

      What would I do? If someone is non-abusive and making a point I’d either answer them in equal fashion (non-abusive) if the subject matter was of interest to me (and I was conversant with the subject matter) or just ignore them altogether if it wasn’t.

      As to ”What would be the point of trying to convince ‘sensible dave’ of anything when he doesn’t have a vote in Scotland?”

      Well as I see it it’s not really about trying to convince individuals like Sensible Dave to agree with Independence because he clearly has his own opinion on that. However his views and the points that he makes relate to issues that many no voters (and undecided) in Scotland hold / are concerned about so in answering him they in turn have their questions answered.

      Many people who ARE in a position to vote in a Scottish Referendum visit this site but don’t necessarily post anything at all. They read the posts and form an opinion of individuals who support Independence. People from around the World (including rUK) visit this site too and everyone who posts on here should be aware that we are role models not just for the Independence cause but for Scotland overall.

      And I’m sure that we are all conscious of the fact that there are others who visit this site with the SOLE objective of bringing out the worst in people and often manage to do so.

    121. heedtracker says:

      The map on that factcheck page shows a big reason why London fought so hard to keep control over Scotland.

      There’s all that Scotland but, if iEngland sees PR Scotland thriving without the whole Westminster HoL red/blue tory sewer, what will the plebs of England want too?

    122. Wuffing Dug says:

      Fantastic article.

      There are however numerous challenges facing the O & G industry in Scotland.

      There is a lot going on just now, in effect a re-calibration is taking place.

      Whether still tied to the UK or not there are major issues that need to be met head-on if the industry is to remain viable.

      Aging assets and infrastructure, lack of investment, decommissioning costs and believe it or not a persistent skills shortage are all matters that need to be addressed – and quickly.

      I firmly believe the obstacles above can only be surmounted if we are independent.

      The British government have criminally mis-managed the O & G industry since its infancy.

      They are now seeking to cripple it irrepairably and remove the skill Base to work on their defence and nuclear vanity projects.

      This is obvious if you look at any engineering job boards on the Internet.

      Their strategy is laid bare for all to see, but no voters don’t want to see, do they?

      They lose their jobs and meekly accept it.

      Cheap oil from Iran etc, secure supplies from Falklands (carriers needed), Power from Chinese reactors (kill Scottish renewables / wave), impose subservient service economy with low paid jobs.

      That’s it.

      Let’s stop them, separate ourselves and build a decent country.

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve seen a few people mentioning the chokka blog as some sort of authority. Well, in the past there have been people mentioning WOS as some sort of authority. Could it be that there is a NOer emerging to rival the Rev, and become the focus for NOers?

      I certainly hope so, I read some of his blog.

    124. Ruby says:

      Petra what you would do and what I would do are two totally different things!

      For example I would never take the time to type a great long post giving others a finger wagging lecture on how they should behave that is unless they post about sport or if Stu appointed me the moderator of this forum.

    125. Robert Louis says:

      seriously o/t,

      This has been puzzling me for some time, it is now the 21st century, and most folks know how the internet and message boards work. So, why do folks on here, keep indulging obvious and well known trolls? A serious question.

    126. Alasdair Sutherland says:

      A good article, thank you.
      If you do a review, might it be worth mentioning the missing VAT, collected in Scotland by big companies (e.g. Tesco, M&S B&Q) and paid to the UK treasury by head office in England thus attributed to English revenue.

    127. Wuffing Dug says:

      David Wallace @1.51

      Exactly.

      Thread spoiled, flow interrupted.

      You can’t change a unionist zealots point of view FFS, let them wallow in their own pish.

    128. john king says:

      “An uninterrupted hour fronted by an informed, erudite, benign questioner with one or two quests around a desk for a single issue show, he or she NOT there to interrogate, but to encourage the guests to open out about their themselves, their vision, and develop their ideas.”

      You just described Hard Talk.

    129. Paula Rose says:

      (Ruby you are being immoderate)

    130. HandandShrimp says:

      Yesindyref2

      I read some of Mr Chokka’s stuff and it is OK but a bit dull to read. Heavy reliance and sweating of graphs which never tells you all that much.

      Someone on the Groaniard had Alexa stats for Wings which showed a surprisingly high ranking for a Scottish independence blog. I tried plugging in Chokkablog – I think the people quoting him on the Groan must be his only regular readers.

    131. DerekM says:

      @ heedtracker

      I wish the plebs of England would get up of their backsides heed,instead of coming on here and talking about something they know squat about.

      I see it everywhere moaning their heads off but their idea of a social revolution is to back the Labour party the very same Labour party they rejected at the GE,talk about blinkered and zipped up the back.

    132. Petra says:

      Stu I’m thinking of printing this off and distributing it around. Let me know if that’s unacceptable.

      O/T

      I watched BBC Reporting Scotland earlier and they were at it again.

      Subject: The Scottish University that is the first in the UK to open a campus in New York.

      Problem: It still has no degree students, two years after it was launched, due to waiting on their application being approved.

      The BBC states that it ”has learned that Glasgow Caledonian University has spent £5.6m developing an offshoot in Manhattan.”

      You see footage of Nicola Sturgeon at the campus followed by Jackie Baillie complaining that “What we have here is a University’s ambition going far ahead of what they can deliver in reality. And what we’re left with is a very expensive white elephant.”

      Then they speak to Professor Miller who says “We will generate that money back. I’ve got no doubt about that.”

      The viewer is left thinking that £5.6 million of taxpayers money has been wasted on a University that is lying empty. However I watched this earlier on STV and realised that the BBC had actually cut Professor Miller’s response short as he pointed out that not one penny of public money has been spent on this. Additionally students (at non-degree level) are actually attending the University.

      Will they ever give up?!

    133. Grumpomcchief says:

      This is you at your best. Factual, coherent and believable. I wish you would stick to this style rather than get involved with foul mouthed arguments with nonentities on Twitter . It diminishes you as a reliable source of information

    134. yesindyref2 says:

      @H&S
      That’s a shame. I looked at his Neil article about TME and DEL, a quick look and found 2 very basic mistakes. I forget what but all it took was a fairly quick look at the gov.scot website. Not sure whether that article has been deleted or not.

      I also looked at his “debunking” of the WBB, just a few seconds and one of the bar charts showing relative deficit caught my eye. I checked with GERS 2009-10. He has the wrong comparative deficit, totally the other way.

      It would make life very easy if the NOers were all quoting as “fact” something which was so easy to prove wrong, with gov.uk or gov.scot links and quotes 🙂

    135. heedtracker says:

      I think the people quoting him on the Groan must be his only regular readers.

      One of them is chockablog.

      Oor keverage’s found a gazzilion ways to say Scotland has debt and deficit and is therefore too small, poor, stupid to economically grow out of it. So stick with England, keep a suckin on those UKOK teets, safe, secure, share, pool, vote anyone but SNP.

      Oh and WoS is the devil’s doodoo.

      But that’s all. His creepy blend of condescension and whiny sneering malice is what we’ve all come to enjoy, from all kinds of britnats and unionists, who, lets face it, did in fact hammer the Scots, for our own good, ofcourse:D

    136. Grouse Beater says:

      John King: You just described Hard Talk.

      No, John. That show is invariably confrontational.

      The interviewer I describe is of a different kind – he/she admires the guest he has invited, keen to know more about them and their work – hence, could be a filmmaker, and artist, or a social worker, not only a politician.

      The round table between is important, with NO background illumination, or faked panoramas of some city or other.

    137. Dan Huil says:

      The more Neil tries to defend himself the more duplicitous he looks. Neil and the bbc deserve each other; the lowest form of life and his incubator.

    138. Dr Jim says:

      All this too poor stuff from the Yoonys, they hate us, but they want us, as long as we all remain silent, but why do they want to talk to us so much and get so angry about trying to convince us we’re worthless and then get angrier when we say, no we’re not

      I suspect they’ve got an ulterior motive (sarcasm)

      We are called the United Kingdom but there are only two Kingdoms and when Scotland becomes Independent there wont be a Rest of the United Kingdom, that wont exist

      There will be Wales, Northern Ireland and England, which will still be Britain of course

      But will it still be “Great” without us moaning Jockistanis Mmm

    139. The Man in the Jar says:

      Sometimes I imagine that Rev Stu`s life must be like one long neverending game of “Whack a Mole”

    140. jacksg says:

      Has anyone else seen this and are we surprised? better together eh.

      Scottish government ‘excluded’ from EU steel talks.

      A request by the Scottish government to attend EU steel talks in Brussels has been rejected by the UK government.

      Scottish Business Minister Fergus Ewing had asked to be take part in the talks, which are being attended by his UK counterpart Sajid Javid.

      But Mr Javid said it would not be possible to accommodate Mr Ewing’s request.

      i’ll bet he did BS******

    141. Frann Leach says:

      I agree another Wee Blue Book would be a good idea, but as you have much more time… we have no idea when the referendum will be… maybe it could be expanded to a Big Blue Book.

      Your information is invaluable, but there are too many people who will never see it, just because of the “Wings” name being blackened by their associates.

    142. Helena Brown says:

      If you were inclined you could feel sorry for the likes of Andrew Neil, he like so many have been willing tools for those who actually despise him. I cannot think of one person who calls themselves English who would do what he and others do which is sell their people out for the benefit of another. What on earth will these people do when Scotland does become Independent, no job here and none where they are. Sad, well maybe not.

    143. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave “Based upon the above, and many of my previous comments on similar subjects, you will note that I have the ability to be objective.”

      No you’re not. No matter how hard you – or I – try to be objective, we’re subject to our own experience, opinions and bias, whether we’re aware of it or not.

      But I enjoy your postings.

    144. gus1940 says:

      Shortly after the Referendum The Record removed their on-line commnts facility – probably because most of the respondents were pro indy.

      They have today restored the comments facility and I suggest that Wingers register on their site and join in the fun.

    145. Andy-B says:

      Thank you Rev, for this article I’m sick of having the price of oil shoved down my throat by the unionists, as a reason for not obtaining independence.

    146. David Wardrope says:

      @ Grumpomcchief

      Like or not how Rev responds on Twitter, he’s responding no different now than he did a couple of years ago so nothing’s changed. Only difference is now it suits the media to highlight it.

    147. Helena Brown says:

      Just a wee bit off topic but is related to Scotland/England thingy. Noticed this morning that England has seen the development and return of Victorian diseases. Malnutrition being the most virulent with number having doubled in the last year. Perhaps all those people here criticising
      (Senseless) might be better having a good look at themselves first before coming on here. This a direct result of the policies of the Party he votes for.

    148. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Grouse Beater.

      “he/she admires the guest he has invited, keen to know more about them and their work”

      That describes the Graham Norton Show!

      8=)

    149. manandboy says:

      With this post you have surpassed yourself, Stu, and given us an absolute gem of an article and a brilliant resource for the future. No praise is too great for your efforts as can be seen in the comments of so many today.
      This is on a par with the McCrone Report, in that once read there is no going back. My only wish, shared by many others, is that this piece is broadcast far and wide by all means possible.

      But even a post as brilliant as this has many obstacles to overcome not least the Tory Government and their State broadcast and print media. But in addition, if my family is anything to go by, is voter fatigue – for want of a better description. Nearer the Holyrood elections of course, interest among the general public will pick up again, but for those voters who have work and family and other things to attend to, politics is not high on the list of priorities, albeit a whole lot higher than before Indy. The Indy flame just has a little less gas in it than before. But it certainly hasn’t gone out.

    150. tarisgal says:

      @Arty Hetty

      Perhaps you might want to do what I did with a book written by an American, trying to tell her readers what Scotland was like (based on a bad American/Scots marriage) – and failing miserably! I wrote a review giving my take as a Scot, living in Scotland, making it known that the book fell way short of any objectivity and NO understanding of the historical context.

      I made it clear I would not pass on such drivel (the book) to others that weren’t in a position – or didn’t care to – check out the facts for themselves. And that my intention that afternoon was to shred it down into mouse bedding… Apologies to the mouse! But – it sure made me feel so much better! 🙂

    151. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2 3:51 pm

      You wrote: “But I enjoy your postings.”

      … you couldn’t have a word in Ruby’s “shell like” for me could you.

    152. gerry parker says:

      @ Helena.
      ” I cannot think of one person who calls themselves English who would do what he and others do which is sell their people out for the benefit of another.”

      Lord Haw Haw?

    153. yesindyref2 says:

      @Frann Leach “but there are too many people who will never see it, just because of the “Wings” name being blackened by their associates.”

      Yes, which is why I’ll do my bit to “defend” it. I have a peculiar advantage in that I’ve neve read it. Just the first page which was an index or something – seemed to cover the topics. So I’ll keep it that way, and not read it.

      It means my work is my own, if I refute anyone’s claims, it’s my work, not the WBB.

      But – there’s no such thing as bad publicity, the more the merrier. It may get otherwise uninterested people to have a look for themselves to see what all the fuss is about.

    154. Training Day says:

      Excellent article, Rev.

      Davidson, Rennie and Dugdale should be asked to read this and, in the unlikely event they understood its import, be asked for their counter-arguments by a free and fair MSM.

      But of course that won’t happen.

    155. Lesley-Anne says:

      Ruby says:
      28 October, 2015 at 2:17 pm

      Lesley-Anne

      He can’t be serious!

      I have to either get out the kick-boxing kit or do some meditation!

      Bloddy ‘Slabber NObbers’ could they not have voted YES!

      Food Banks being turned into Job Centres I’ve heard it all now!

      I think he really needs to cut down on the number of Spliffs he smokes each day Ruby.

      Still look on the bright side. With all the hard work both Iain Drunken Spliff and Ozzy “dopehead” Osborne are putting in to kill off as many homeless, poor, disabled eldery, low paid etc they are protecting everyone contributing (NOT) to the £120 BILLION in unpaid taxes to the Treasury and the £167 BILLION American controlled replacement White Elephant!

    156. AlbertaScot says:

      O/T but interesting.

      Faraway in my cabin in the Rockies I Googled PMQs today.

      While Call Me Dave was stickhandling around the Lords and tax credit issue with the usual shit-eating grin on his face, the Tory Babes – the gaggle of semi-sensual lobby fodder MPs that are strategically seated behind Cameron to leave the false TV impression that the Tories aren’t all Jacob Reese Mogg dinosaurs – did not appear to be enjoying dumping 3 million po’ folk into the poverty land fill.

      While Gideon spent the entire session looking like he’d just swallowed a dog turd.

      The only guy on the Conservative bench who appeared to be enjoying himself – fresh from being splashed across every morning paper in the UK with his tug-of-war arse plant – was Boris.

      A rare visit to the green room from BoJo on a day when Cammy and Osborne are looking like yesterday’s men.

      What can it all mean?

    157. dakk says:

      Yet another marvellous uncontestable deconstruction of the Great British Rip-off of Scotland.

      Why don’t the BBC make a series of that title ?It’s got Great British in it after all.

      Now that really would be be doing a public service to their TV tax payers in their Scotland region.

      Unfortunately, it ain’t gonna happen,ever.

      All we’ll get is more lies,spin and obfuscation from the Britnat media.Not to mention their sneaky,ever so civilized,salt of the earth trolls.

    158. schrodingers cat says:

      problem is, we now have a coordinated snpbad attack continuously ongoing in the media.

      during the referendum, the unionists could have alloed at least one of the Scottish dailies to come out for yes, with 45% voting yes, it would have made financial sense. they didn’t though, sites like wings were a reaction to this bias. it was the unionists who launched the trajectory of yes movement, they created the present situation.

      so now even when the other small pro indy parties make even the slightest criticism of the snp, justified or otherwise, they get jumped on by the vast majority in social media. they are seen to be jumping on the constant bandwagon of snpbad bias. this is the background that politics in Scotland is now played out against.

      so now, even if I disagreed with something the snp did or said, I wouldn’t criticise them publicly. why should I? why should I give the unionists any ammunition? why should I be objective and fair? what is fair about being forced by law to pay the bbc for the priviledge of being lied to?

      this is the rod the unionists have made for themselves. its also the rod which will break the union’s back.

    159. nodrog says:

      Don’t know how you find the time to get into such detail and accuracy but I am very glad you do. Brilliant stuff. I think it is time for another Yes campaign as the SNP are too busy running the country – or as much of it as they are allowed to.
      New Para(only joking).
      They,the SNP, should be running recruiting meetings all over the country using the stars like Sheppard, Black, and their likes to give one hour speeches followed by question and answer sessions. In this way they could pull in the punters and swell the ranks.

      Meanwhile someone needs to take up the Yes Indy banner. Preferably a non party political person. The events and time is right – strike while the Iron is hot.

    160. Albaman says:

      Sorry folks,
      I’m a bit late today, so have not read all the posting, if this has already been mentioned , sorry.
      Stew, I see that Jenny Hjul,( aye the same one), has attract you in today’s Courier, actually all this “wings” exposure, I think is more beneficial to the Independance side, rather than the unionist one,
      Long may they continue to attract you, for they know not what damage they are doing to themselves, ’cause you can handel them.

    161. Big Jock says:

      I agree we need to go for independence. This chance might not last forever.

    162. I will say it again the only reason the bbc and the media in general are not reporting the truth is because the only one who has the power to change that does nothing and yes I mean the Scottish government to stand by and and see all these wrongs being done in my mind that is an even greater crime for gods sake act and put a stop to this hypocrisy.

    163. Clootie says:

      I have no doubts that Scotland can be a successful country.

      What is more important is that it will be a fairer country that will have no military drive to intervere in other nations affairs at a political level but will be a nation that will seek to assist the people impacted by the madness of war.

      The finacial arguement is won in my view. However the balance sheet is still challenged on the basis of Scotland being a mini-UK.

      For the benefit of the “hard of thinking” we do not desire Scotland to be a mini UK. I want the Scotland that started to take shape during the YES campaign.

      If you look at one area – Defence.
      Without weapons of “Force Projection” such as Astute class submarines / Trident replacement / Aircraft carriers etc. We could have a Navy suited to the coastline/sea area of our nation. We could have longe range patrol aircraft and an army based in Scotland. This would be cheaper than our current contribution to Westminster and the civilian jobs would be far, far higher in Scotland. It would also be nice to have our troops based in Scotland and spending their money in Scotland instead of an English town.

      We want to be Independent in order that we can be different. A nation for the many instead of the few.

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      @Grouse Beater
      I’m up during the night a lot, and have the beeb on as background, same for years. Hard Talk used to be good but more and more it’s the interviewer’s agenda that fills maybe 90% of the time, not whoever’s being interviewed. Which is a shame as there’s a lot of interesting people on as guests who are, basically, wasting their time.

    165. manandboy says:

      The fact that Andrew Neil is a Scotsman suits Cameron & Co down to the ground for the same reason as the Germans used Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce:www.bbc.co.uk/archive/hawhaw/) and the Japanese used Tokyo Rose(Iva Toguri: http://www.biography.com/people/tokyo-rose-37481). Joyce was hanged for treason while Iva Toguri was imprisoned.

      Hearing ‘a fellow scot’ on TV, regularly criticise the Scottish government and the SNP, Scottish listeners may become a little demoralised – at least, that’s what the BBC hopes.

    166. Steuart says:

      The ‘YES’ side didn’t win the PR battle during the referendum, despite the facts being on their side.

      That probably played a very large part in the defeat. A lot of ‘soft’ NO voters unsure about the change.

      Amazing really. I guess, the sheer power of the MSM.

    167. yesindyref2 says:

      @AlbertaScot
      Cameron and Osborne have three problems. They have a slim majority of 12. There are a number of decent Conservatives, and hopefully a growing number. Boris Johnson.

      Won’t be long now, as I keep saying for a lot of reasons!

    168. FergusMac says:

      O/T Walked past Fluffy Mundell’s constituency office in Moffat this afternoon – It’s got a big “To Let” sign in the window.

      It’s been there for years, so I was a bit surprised. Still pissed that we came so close to getting rid of him, but fell 800 votes short. Next time …

    169. Fireproofjim says:

      Phillipa Whiteford doing awful well on BBC Parliament.
      No notes totally on top of her Health subjects. Another SNP gem.
      You won’t hear about this on Reporting Scotland.’

    170. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2 5:12 pm

      You wrote: “There are a number of decent Conservatives, and hopefully a growing number. Boris Johnson.”

      What?!?!? You will get yourself debarred uttering such sacrilege. If you live anywhere near Ruby, Heedy or Helena Brown – best keep looking over your shoulder!

    171. X_Sticks says:

      @Petra

      Stuart has no problem with the dissemination of his articles – that’s why there is a Print PDF button at the bottom of every post.

    172. heedtracker says:

      What?!?!? You will get yourself debarred uttering such sacrilege. If you live anywhere near Ruby, Heedy or Helena Brown – best keep looking over your shoulder!

      You sneaky shit.

      Sensibledave, I love Bojo. At the very least he’s honest, about teamGBnomics. A pound in Croydon is much nicer than a pound wasted on the sweaties

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjFboRwGiqc

      Anyway sensible, another day of jock baiting swills down your drain. We already have BBC Scotland for all that. So be of UKOK use sensible, so

      Why was EVEL dumped on us last week sensible and why was EVEL held back from Scotland until 19 Sept 2014?

    173. john king says:

      Alan Weir says
      ” If the unionist response is dry your eyes, all in the past so forget it, the response should be same holds for our supposed obligation to UK debt. ”

      Why do you think they were at pains to point out that the debt would be underwritten by the UK prior to the referendum?
      not because thay wanted us to walk away Scot free but because they knew once the books were opened it could have been the only outcome since they’ve been robbing us blind for years,

      They would be liable for a repayment to Scotland that would put the cost of lend lease into the realms of “a wee sub till Friday”

      This information is what we all waited (in vein) for the SNP to wheel out just before the referendum we all knew they were going to unleash the big guns right up to the point when they did nothing at all.

      To say I was dissapointed would be to suggest that the guy who threw his winning lottery ticket on the fire just at the point when he realised he has just burned a 100 million pound winning ticket was a little miffed,

      I find it hard to forgive the SNP for that.

    174. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible Dave @ 1:03
      “Andrew, my previous comments had absolutely nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of EVEL It was about parties lying.”
      Oh Really!
      Though in your post of the 24 October 11:41 you appear to think it a great thing do you not? “Some seem to think that this legislation is all about doing something negative to Scots. Its not. Its about doing something positive for the English.”
      But that’s not the only time you past an opinion, for In your post of the 23 October 10:31 in discussing EVEL and its rules you say “If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.”
      Again in your post of 23 October 10:41 in discussing costs of implementation you say “ it will represent excellent value for money in comparison to any other Assembly, or Parliament, in the UK.”
      Continuing in your view in your post of 23 October 12:02 you comment on its aims, “to stop “English Only” laws being passed that the majority of English MPs don’t want passed.”
      Then in your assertion that it’s just about political parties lying, you use the Liberal excuse made by Sir Malcolm Bruce that all politicians lie, when defending a known liar. Not the best repost to use in a post about hypocrisy I would have thought!
      Then you say you only picked out the SNP as an example of this but you state in your post of 23 October 4:16 “The only people in a froth about this issue were SNP politicians”
      You see David “I will continue to call out hypocrisy when I see it.” I do as you recommend am circumspect when reading stuff and I do a bit of investigation myself. Do you like Matthew David ? “For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.”
      But very good use of ecclesiastical terminology for lying, in your reply, made me smile ?

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      Everyone has their style, that’s what makes it fun 😎

    176. Andrew McLean says:

      yesindyref2 5:12 pm

      You wrote: “There are a number of decent Conservatives, and hopefully a growing number. Boris Johnson.”
      what the man who for a jolly jape used to burn £20 pound notes under beggars noses?
      You never watched I claudius, the bumbling fool, will cut you up!

    177. manandboy says:

      ANGRY UNIONISTS – STRANGE ISN’T IT.
      The answer lies in the recent past, and the best search tool in this instance is not Google, but, just as powerful in it’s own way, hindsight. The Unionists do not want us to have the benefit of hindsight which may be one of the reasons why we are urged to forget about Indy14.
      There is a book of hindsights on IndyRef14 which remains to be written and when it is, it will be compulsory reading not least because there is so much about Indy that we still don’t understand.

      Almost every Unionist in the land seems to be angry these days as testified by other commenters. There has to be an explanation, given that there is a reason for everything and this is no exception. David Cameron himself has become a pretty angry guy, at a time when, ostensibly, he has little reason to be angry.

      My own suspicion is that Cameron is not coping with carrying the knowledge of what he and his Government has done and I think he may be nervous about it coming to light.
      It might be that the Carmichael trial contains a threat. Or, it could be that people are now talking openly about how he and his party lied to the electorate before the GE about cuts to tax credits. That could become a very big thing politically.
      Or, he may fear a Unionist trouncing in the Holyrood elections come May, despite his State manufactured onslaught against the SG and the SNP.
      Or perhaps he sees EVEL isn’t going to work very well, if he ever did, which is a worry if he used the EVEL announcement merely as a squirrel to take attention away from the Referendum result. It was a very strange thing to do on the morning after the Indy ballot.

      Or, it could be the EU Referendum, and especially with it coming so soon after IndyRef. Everyone will compare and contrast the two which will make fixing the EU REF very difficult. A ‘remain’ vote is essential to Cameron, but fixing the result will carry a huge risk. It is not impossible that the EU REF will show that Indy was ‘interfered’ with.

      But perhaps the biggest reason of all why the Unionists are angry is because Independence hasn’t gone away. There is no greater threat to the entire way of life of the English Establishment than Scottish Independence.
      Isn’t it strange that the whole of England and half of Scotland believes the tale of how Scotland is poor and needs the subsidy of the Barnett Formula to keep us going.
      While the Establishment are shi**ing themselves at the though of it.
      Neither the Brothers Grimm nor Hans Christian Andersson could have written a fairy story like the one about the poor Scots.

      Cameron should be angry about children in the UK going to bed hungry, but that doesn’t bother him.
      Instead, he’s angry at the thought of losing his privileged and wealthy way of life.
      He and all like him.

    178. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible Dave
      😉

    179. Paula Rose says:

      Actually – replying to a time waster and not using paragraph breaks does make it easier to identify and skim past.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Andrew McLean
      I mean Boris is the third problem for Cameron and Osborne!

      They do have others of course, but we won’t go into that …

    181. AlbertaScot says:

      Here’s more PMQ insight from my cabin in the Rockies.

      Whenever Angus or Wishart get up to lob their quota pair of hand grenades – unlike other MPs questions when all that weird braying happens – the place goes deadly quiet.

      The Tories appear totally unnerved by the SNP. So are the Labour under-achievers and champagne socialists.

      It only gets worse when they use cynical Scots humour on them – as Alex and Pete did later during the ban the Lords (as if) dust up.

      The Posh Boys just don’t know how to confront and counter act Scots being Scots. Unless you put on one of those fake down south accents like Flipper and Gordo.

      Strange but true.

    182. Fran says:

      I have sat and explained this to no voters before Ref1 last year and it was as if I were speaking a different language.

      Again I have sat and explained after this years down turn in oil prices, that Scotland only gets 8.4% of the revenues allocated as that’s the size of our population ratio to the UK and rUK gets the rest. And Scotland would not be fucked if it were independent.

      I have sat and explained how GERS is worked out.
      It was the Cuthberts that explained to a Holyrood committee in 2013, ” the underestimation” of Scotlands finances is “unquantifiable” using GERS.

      And still the shaking of the heads continue. Its like banging your head off a brick wall. What is so difficult in the understanding of it?

      Sorry Wingers, just venting aff a wee tatey.

    183. Angra Mainyu says:

      Well, I’d be the first to admit that I don’t have much time for the Orange type unionists who are into all that flute band stuff etc. I don’t think it would be possible to convert or find common ground there.

      But there are a lot of people of that persuasion who are relatively moderate. And I think as a whole this whole demographic is becoming more moderate.

      Let me be the first to hold out some sort of olive branch and ask them to reconsider their opposition to Scottish independence. There is a place for you in the ranks; and, incidentally, they aren’t our ranks — they belong to anyone and everyone who joins them.

      I like to think, all other differences aside, that any two men can gather under a banner of reason. And, providing we are willing to put the future of our children and their interests before our own, I see no reason why we can’t all find improvement by simply listening and exchanging ideas as to the best way to go forward.

      These issues are far too important to future generations to be reduced to inane differences over football, religion, and flags.

      Get involved and help us. Help us to make our country better for all our children.

    184. schrodingers cat says:

      FergusMac says:

      O/T Walked past Fluffy Mundell’s constituency office in Moffat this afternoon – It’s got a big “To Let” sign in the window

      well done on resisting the urge to paint an extra “I” on the sign 🙂

    185. schrodingers cat says:

      Meanwhile someone needs to take up the Yes Indy banner. Preferably a non party political person. The events and time is right – strike while the Iron is hot.

      yes2 Head

      Robin MacAlpine

    186. skooshcase says:

      Terrific post.

      Regarding the obsessional chokka one. He is a parasite. He lives off a host – Wings – to enable his own survival ie composing his own blog. Should there be no Wings, there would be no chokkashite. A parasite in the true definition of the word. No better than a hookworm.

      And by the way and O/T-ish:

      While posting yesterday BTL Severin Carrell/Guardian’s shitty little piece of snide Wings and Stu Campbell-bad smear, wouldn’t you know it but up comes the Guardian’s let’s-get-rid-of-another-pesky-Jockistinian red card, the dreaded “Your comments are currently being pre-moderated.”.

      I had replied to a few of the Unionist flamer-trolls using language far from the abuse and offense they themselves had used. But, whaddya know, I’m the one who gets naughty-stepped while the flamer-troll-abusers are still there, quite unobstructed from doing their thing!

      Anyway, normal forum rules have gone out the window at the Guardian since the indyref1 campaign period so I’m not too surprised.

      There are a few regular pro-Scottish independence posters on the Guardian’s CiF who do a valiant job. I don’t know how they can be arsed with it all since the place is now an ugly Unionist shriek-hole full of abusive haters who the Guardian are, seemingly, quite happy to have BTL ‘representing their views’ [sic].

      Ach well, fuck them anyway! The indyref1 experience outed the Guardian as a bunch of hypocritical, faux-left liars and nothing more than just another pro-Brit Establishment mouthpiece, so for that at least we should be thankful.

    187. schrodingers cat says:

      Big Jock says:

      I agree we need to go for independence. This chance might not last forever.

      Hold….Hold….Hold…

    188. Lollysmum says:

      Petra
      Re printing this blog -if you go up to the end of Stu’s post theres a green button labelled Print PDF-thats exactly what its for.All posts have this button.

    189. Tam Jardine says:

      I have tried to get through a couple of Kevin Hague’s articles but I really struggle. I find his stuff so boring that I can’t get through them. Stuart has a great skill in making economics accessible and understandable. And he writes well, which helps.

      If someone wrote a post genuinely trying to tackle these complex issues I would read it but the seeming obsession with Wings Kevin has (that is certainly how it comes across to me) makes me suspect that the very accusations he levels at Stuart is applicable in his own case.

      I suppose when it comes down to it, I don’t want to read something by somebody who doesn’t think Scotland could be a successful independent country – it’s a losing mentality. Remember the Richard Branson contradiction anyone?

    190. Kevin Evans says:

      That is one of your best articles I’ve seen in a long time Stu. Thanks keep it up. I really enjoyed how it exploded right into the heart of the unionist propaganda. We need this kinda of stuff. Superb

    191. Jim Mitchell says:

      o/t again, sorry Rev but it looks like your moment of fame re the Daily Record is over, sadly you seem to have been removed, I hope you aren’t hurt too much!

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      Talking about GERS, which Kevin Hague seems to ignore in his own data retrieval, here’s an interesting find I’ve started reading, it’s answers to public queries about GERS:

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/GERS/queries

      Q1 being probably the least interesting one.

    193. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lollysmum –

      Thanks for heids-up about PDF button – honestly never even noticed it before.

      (P.S. Anyone know why damp Nawbags were hanging around with UJs in ‘George’ Square today? See WOS Twitter, ‘3 hours ago’…)

    194. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, having used the HMRC tables in postings, the ones disadgregated by “region”, this is a very interesting one:

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/GERS/queries/007

    195. schrodingers cat says:

      ot

      WGD
      the poor peasants of Ukovia found themselves looking to an electorally illegitimate chamber to protect them from the bastards in the elected one.

      weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/10/27/constitutional-necrosis/#comments

    196. Craig says:

      O/T

      I don’t know if anyone watched PMQT this afternoon, Angus Roberston really put David Cameron on the spot today with his 2 questions, both relating to the suicides of 2 Englishmen after being told that they were fit for work.

      David Cameron gave a reply that held the excuse that he couldn’t release details due to confidential medical information.

      The camera then panned onto the face of IDS, his face was grim, he wasn’t enjoying the questions at all.

      Great to see the SNP really driving home the callousness of the Tory government.

    197. Grouse Beater says:

      That describes the Graham Norton Show!

      There should be humour because the session is good-natured even when a question is probing, but it’s about what ever the guests has achieved – like a novelist – and not a total of five minutes of answers interspersed with risqué jokes, patter and a song. 🙂

    198. john king says:

      Grouse Beater says
      “John King: You just described Hard Talk.

      No, John. That show is invariably confrontational.”

      Well let me put it this way, if I was to describe the way I would have our representatives interveiwed (not grilled) it would be the way Stephen Sackur does it, he asks difficult questions but then allows the interveiwee the time to answer without the hectoring nature of people like Gordon Brewer,

      I dont think we should give our represenatives a free ride, what the hell is the point of that?
      we just end up with the softball interveiws Kezia Dugdales become used to, where she can say what the hell she likes and knows full well she wont be challenged,
      If Nicola Sturgeon sits in the Hardtalk seat she knows it wont be to pander to her but she at least will be given the right to respond,
      thats the kind of telvision I want to see.

    199. skooshcase says:

      @Petra says:

      It smacks of narrow minded cliquish behaviour and stifles healthy debate.

      We are also supposed to be encouraging prior no voters or undecided people to come over to our side. If I was in one of these categories I wouldn’t dare venture on here and to be honest this kind of attitude would put me off voting yes at all in future.

      Petra, if you’re responding to what is being posted in reply to what sensibledave says, but I believe your mistaken. And, sorry to say it, but you’ve been had.

      He (presumably) is not here as one who voted No in Indyref1, has heard about Wings and is interested in what the Yes position is should Indyref2 come into being.

      He has admitted that he is an English person who lives in England, was not eligible to vote in Indyref and did not do so. He also says he is a Tory voter.

      He is not here to debate or follow the topic of the article ATL. He is here to sow discord, be purposely provocative, to flame, to create off-topic arguments and divisiveness. All classic troll behaviour.

      With your response of “It smacks of narrow-minded cliquish behaviour and stifles healthy debate.”, you’ve fallen right into his trap. These are the kind of responses he wants to see here. He is sowing discord and divisiveness and discord and divisiveness is what he’s getting.

      Never mind, though, just ignore him the next time. Yes, it’s hard, but being ignored is what trolls really, really hate.

      And yes, he will reply to this post with accusations and lies. He’ll say that it’s me who is the troll. He’ll say that he is genuine and not a troll – oh no! And yes, he will try to get people onto his side. All classic troll behaviour. Beware.

    200. Lollysmum says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood at 7.06pm.

      Ian you do surprise me-you’ve been here far longer than me so thought you would have clocked it before now. Oh well we live & learn eh?

      Saw that sad looking bunch on Twitter & we came to the conclusion that it was a workshop on how to display the butchers apron correctly.They failed dismally judging by the photo 🙂

    201. Bob Mack says:

      @Ian Brotherhood,
      I believe they were looking for the story about what would happen to George Sq if the SNP took over GCC. I believe the SNP want to keep it as a meeting place and an oasis for meeting ,talking ,relaxing etc.
      This would mean resiting many of the events that currently take place there throughout the year.
      Labour want no change to George Sq whatsoever.

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      @skooshcase
      Totally disagree. At least sensibledave says what he is, so he’s not posting here pretending to be a YES supporter, but coming out with a whole load of negative despairing vibes attacking all other parts of the Indy movement, and its people.

      At the moment it’s 50/50 YES/NO, and unless we get some of those 50% NOes to come with us, that’s the way it is, and that’s the way it’s going to stay.

      The way to get people to move across is not to call them trolls, or anyone who disagrees with us trolls, it’s sensible debate, and if a sensible point is made, then answer it, coolly and calmly, or with passion, whatever is your way.

      sensibledave might not have a vote, but the 10 to 1 ratio or whatever it is who read but don’t post, are going to wonder what on earth they would be doing joining with people who call everyone who disagrees with them, trolls.

    203. Grouse Beater says:

      John King: if I was to describe the way I would have our representatives interveiwed (not grilled) it would be the way Stephen Sackur does it, he asks difficult questions but then allows the interveiwee the time to answer without the hectoring

      That’s close to what I have in mind – questions quoting critics are eligible, but remember, guests should not be restricted to politicians, and unlike the Norton show they’re not there to sell their latest project.

      Anybody is welcome from any walk of life that has accomplished something, here and now, or over many years, from the guy that looks after the municipal toilets telling us of all the incidents and happenings, to a Nobel prize winner relating how he became obsessed with discovering whatever.

      🙂

    204. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 28 October, 2015 at 12:03 pm:

      “I was pointed to the SNP web site and the pages on the SNP policy with respect to EVEL. In all fairness, a more distorted picture of the “truth” would be hard to write. There are statements there that are designed only to mislead and misrepresent, and others which are pure untruths.”

      Hilarious! Simply hilarious!

      You really are a total numptie, Sensibledave.

      Among all the inti-Scottish invective that passes for argument or debate, yours is the most consistently idiotic.

      You write a ream of utter crap without a single specific reference to any specific point or figure and expect intelligent independence seekers to swallow it as reasoned argument. Any fool can make such claims.

      You have made an accusation against the SNP yet have not quoted a single fact or figure, nor argued any specific points. Bullshit only baffles brains when the recipient is ignorant of the truth – Wingers are not ignorant of the truth. So either make your point or piss off.

    205. Grouse Beater says:

      “Labour want no change to George Sq whatsoever.”

      [Obliquely to the discussion] I remember my wife meeting Glasgow’s Labour leader not so long ago – she doesn’t mince her words – asking why the square was resurfaced in red. Getting a garbled reply she then asked, “What does the red relate to? There’s not a single building or edifice remotely red in the entire square. It jumps at you as totally out of place. And if it’s for the blind how can they see it?”

    206. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat

      “Labour could have done something about the Lords in 1997 when they were elected with an absolute majority. They chose to replace the hereditary principle with the only thing that was worse – the appointment of their pals.”

      Says WGD, but I caught about 30 seconds of Lord Foulkes of SLabour greatness on BBC tv this afternoon, eadgerly explain soberly to future Lord Gordon Brewer of Pacific Quay, that a Labour UK.gov would right now be scrapping the Lords and replacing it with an elected upper chamber, with “representatives of the countries and regions” of teamGB. But said Lord Foulkes, Labour has been thwarted and it was all the SNP voters fault because they let the tories back in.

      He didn’t look that drunk either but no one asked Lord Foulkes why he didn’t do it when he was in charge of teamGB.

    207. Kenny says:

      Guys and gals – sensibledave’s initial post was pretty inoffensive. The SNP HAS over-egged the pudding on the EVEL issue. If they wanted to make a principled case about how this effectively prevents a Scot from becoming PM or Chancellor ever again, I’d be fine. If they wanted to talk about how the UK establishment views Westminster as the English parliament already, I’d be on their side. If they wanted to highlight the absurdity of having a majority of English MPs on the the Scottish Affairs Committee (and from the THIRD party in Scotland too!) then I’d back them to the hilt. But the whole “second class MPs” rhetoric is silly and doesn’t get us anywhere. Derek Bateman said much the same thing the other day, and no-one is doubting HIS Nat credentials, so let’s all relax on that one. It’s not anti-Scotland to point out that the SNP will play petty political point-scoring just as much as most parties. It just often has easier, softer targets.

      On a more general point, if a No voter comes on here AT ALL, we have a duty to be unfailingly polite. Wings has the reputation of being Cybernat Central. If we want to convince the world that cybernats are not even a real thing, let alone that Wings isn’t where we gather to get our lies and our orders, we need to be better than anyone else out there.

      It’s not wrong to call someone out on telling lies. It’s not wrong to be angry about it. But it’s not helpful and it’s not decent to call anyone names, to assume that anyone who’s anti-independence is a wicked, soulless Tory, or to make snidey remarks about ugly English nationalism.

      So yes, sensibledave, I agree with you that the SNP’s handling of the EVEL issue has been bad. “Lies” is a strong word, but they’ve certainly spun it heavily in a direction I don’t much like. However – and I think this speaks to some of the reactions you’ve received here too – the SNP and the independence movement have been victims of a wall of absolute untruth and remarkable anti-Scotland spin for a long, long time. It’s hard for many people here to believe ANYTHING that comes from a Unionist mouth these days because the No campaign, its violence, its intimidation, its outright lies became so outrageous and yet so utterly unchallenged by our “impartial” “national” broadcaster and our rabidly partisan print media. It’s genuinely hard for many of us to conceive of an “honest” or “principled” unionist position because those are two words that cannot be associated with Better Together in any way. So when the SNP, which has done a decent job in government and has tried to encourage a more positive self-image for Scotland, slips into the spin game, many people will defend it because it’s all they’ve got left to believe in, politically.

    208. john king says:

      “Anybody is welcome from any walk of life that has accomplished something, here and now, or over many years, from the guy that looks after the municipal toilets telling us of all the incidents and happenings, to a Nobel prize winner relating how he became obsessed with discovering whatever.”

      So we’re agreed?
      lets do it. eh…

      🙂

    209. ScottieDog says:

      Yes the Side who claim that our oil is well into decline can’t have it both ways. If it forms a smaller part of the economy then a price fall can have less effect. Plus as an oil importer the drop in oil price is beneficial. It’s not rocket science.

      I don’t like this talk of surplus and deficit though. A government deficit is not only normal, it is desirable. If the govt sector is running a surplus, then the non-government sector is running a deficit and is being drained of its assets. Where a sovereign currency issuing govt like the UK can never default, the private sector – like in 2008 can and inevitably will once again.

      Most western governments in the 1940s onwards ran huge deficits until the time of financial deregulation in the 80s when the monetarists took over and declared that the government is akin to a household. The inflation of the 70s was blamed on govt spending (with no empirical evidence) whilst ignoring the effect of the oil shocks at the time. It has been all down hill since for the vast majority of the private sector.

      So it is imaddening speaking to those Tory boomers who benefited from these huge deficits who want to deprive us of a future.

      So I have and always will campaign for Scotland to have a Scottish currency. When people laugh and proclaim that Scotland will run continuous deficits, I nod in approval because it’s a good thing.

    210. Ken500 says:

      Unionists have priority on every press website available and have compromised every one of them. Independence supporters have been deleted and banned frequently.

      Wings is different. Keep it that way. Or it will be compromised. The success of Wings depends on banning Unionists.They would be delighted if it failed.

    211. R says:

      @The Man in the Jar says: 28 October, 2015 at 12:25 pm:

      “And there’s your problem. not living in Scotland you miss so much of the detail”.

      The real point, Man in the Jar, is that sensibledave is a total numptie. He neither understands how to debate nor what he is commenting upon. Where the Rev Stu quotes a source for his argument, then quotes the figures and ends by interpreting/explaining the relevant figures.

      Yon sensibledave gadgie simply says something like, “I read the SNP’s statement and it is all lies”. No specific figures, no explanation of, (what sensibledave), understands of them. Just an idiotic claim they are all lies. That’s the kind of argument you get out of four year olds in the nursery play area.

      The numptie is attempting to treat us as four year olds with childlike arguments. Much like the businessman mentioned by the Rev Stu.

    212. heedtracker says:

      “. But the whole “second class MPs” rhetoric is silly and doesn’t get us anywhere. Derek Bateman said much the same thing the other day, and no-one is doubting HIS Nat credentials, so let’s all relax on that one”

      That’s nice. But you answered your own point with

      “If they wanted to make a principled case about how this effectively prevents a Scot from becoming PM or Chancellor ever again, I’d be fine.”

      So no one in Scotland standing in Scottish polling booths, will ever see a Scottish UK.gov Prime Minister from a Scottish constituency and so on and that doesnt mean second class Scotland at Westminster?

      Maybe a future Labour UK.gov will change EVEL a wee bit, one day, like in 97 when they said vote Blair and Brown for HoL reform.

      Wonder why the whole UKOK media propaganda machine buried it all.

    213. john king says:

      Kenny @ 7.46
      ok ok ok
      Sensibledave we respect your veiws,
      now can we shoot him?

    214. Ruby says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      sensibledave might not have a vote, but the 10 to 1 ratio or whatever it is who read but don’t post, are going to wonder what on earth they would be doing joining with people who call everyone who disagrees with them, trolls.

      Ruby replies:

      It worked for the NO Campaign did it not?

      Cybernats, anti-English bigots, cult followers, tartan moonies, Brigadoon dreamers, economic illiterates, wee troll over Bath, etc etc etc

      The people who are reading and not posting could equally be asking what kind of wimps are these people who allow others to call them names and they say nothing.

      Frankly I think nicey nicey Nicola with her be nicey nicey cyberniceynats makes people look pathetic and weak!

      Who would want to join people who cower in the corner with their wee lips trembling when they are being bullied?

      http://tinyurl.com/nhjk9b6

      What are supposed to say to the above. Aren’t they good singers?

    215. Sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 7.40

      … The reason I didn’t reference anything specifically is because we did all that last Friday. Do try and keep up. Go and read about EVEL on the SNP website and come back and tell me which paragraphs are correct – that will be a much shorter conversation. Whoever wrote it was either devoid of any knowledge of the subject or lying through their teeth.

      Maybe, to save time, just read the last couple of examples about the English NHS and Heathrow – then come back and tell me how EVEL could possibly achieve what the author suggests it might.

    216. scott says:

      Reporting Scotland tonight on about the police and how they must save money but no mention about the Police Scotland’s £23million VAT bill which London will not scrap,also,I see Baillie on about the white elephant of the Glasgow Caledonian University New York that woman is a disgrace to the Labour party.

    217. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 28 October, 2015 at 12:28 pm:

      ” … Ah but, my objective view is objective …”

      and … that’s the difference Bob.Can you give me an example of bad SNP policy or lies Bob?”

      The point, sensibledave is that your opinion of your own objectivity is farce. You have no objectivity and your present comments prove that beyond doubt.

      You simply claimed you found the SNP statements to be lies. No specific points, no figures, no references and no proofs. Just your claim they told lies in your opinion

    218. Wuffing Dug says:

      Ruby @8.03

      Agree, the time for being nice has passed.

      The Rev came out of the corner swinging and k.o.’d brillo.

      More of same is needed, no voters or not – people appreciate strength and resolve, it wins them over more than reasoned argument sometimes.

    219. Ruby says:

      For goodness sake I forgot to include Nazis & fascists in the list of names used by the “UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ in order to win the referendum.

      Calling someone a troll really pales in comparison to being called a racist, a nazi, a fascist!

    220. Sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 8.15

      I repeat, we already did a point by point analysis of the relevant page Robert. Do you really want to do it all again?

    221. Legerwood says:

      O/T

      Scott @ 8.10 pm.

      No mention either about the recent vote in the House of Commons, this week I think, in which a motion to exempt Police Scotland from VAT in line with other police forces was defeated.

      The Herald ran the story in today’s edition, minus any mention of VAT liability, but did not put it on-line. Too afraid of the comments that would have pointed out that the shortfall was in large part due to them having to pay VAT. Nor did they mention the vote in HoC.

    222. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ruby
      Before Better Together started up, support for Independence was less than 30%. By the time they finished, it was 44.7%.

      In the time since then, with the “Nasty party”, “nationalism”, all the rest of it, support for Indy has grown to around 50%.

      I hope they keep it up, right the way to Indy being over 60% and rising.

    223. frogesque says:

      @sensible. You say you went through all your points, with references, last Friday.

      Uunless I’m in some dimensional timewarp construct of one of the rev’s vid games then today is this Thursday and you are still bleating SNP bad.

      Pointing out the rather obvious that, due to EVEL, Scottish MPs (that is any MP representing a Scottish seat) can now no longer realistically be an Office bearer in a UK Government or Shadow relegates Scots MPs and the electorate who elect them to second class in a supposedly UNITED KINGDOM.

      Back on topic, well done Stu on a brilliant disection.

    224. skooshcase says:

      @yesindyref2

      “Totally disagree.”

      That’s fine and dandy. Good for you.

      “At least sensibledave says what he is…”

      Sorry, I must have missed that. What does he say that he is?

      “The way to get people to move across is not to call them trolls…”

      If a troll is obvious I’ll call it out as a troll. It can then be agreed upon or not. If it’s not I won’t.

      “…or anyone who disagrees with us [as] trolls”

      No, absolutely, disagreement is fine. But there’s disagreement, and there’s ‘disagreement’. One can be countered, or not, with discussion held with a reasonable amount of respect for each other’s viewpoint. The other is done deliberately to sow discord BTL.

      “…it’s sensible debate, and if a sensible point is made, then answer it, coolly and calmly, or with passion, whatever is your way.”

      His name might include ‘sensible’, but if you truly believe he is here for sensible debate and to make sensible points then, well…..

      “sensibledave might not have a vote, but the 10 to 1 ratio or whatever it is who read but don’t post, are going to wonder what on earth they would be doing joining with people who call everyone who disagrees with them, trolls.”

      I have no problem people coming here to debate, not at all… If they are here to debate and not troll.

      For some reason you believe sensibledave to be a straight-as-a-die, no bullshitting, inquisitive Unionist here only to open our eyes to ‘the other side’, or, at least, be considerate of it. Ah well, good luck with that.

      Maybe just for a moment ask yourself why a Britnat Unionist would join what is to them an enemy, a pro-Scottish independence blog/website, and the ultimate one at that. What for? To make us aware of our pro-indy. sins, repent, see the Unionist light and beg for mercy…? To have some light-hearted banter…? To say that we are right, he has been wrong all along, and can we please forgive him before he rushes up to Scotland to get on the voting register for Indyref2…? To have everyone exchanging witticisms while extoling the greatness of our better togetherness, singing Kumbaya and pledging friendships forever…? Whatever. Have yourself a wee think about it.

      “But I enjoy your postings.”

      Hook. Line. Sinker.

    225. heedtracker says:

      Sensibledave says:
      28 October, 2015 at 8:22 pm
      Robert Peffers 8.15

      I repeat, we already did a point by point analysis of the relevant page Robert. Do you really want to do it all again?

      Go on then sensible.

      Can you start by explaining why EVEL was only farted into the teamGB universe the day after the referendum please.

      And if EVEL’s nothing at all, why EVEL?

      Thanks in advance sensible.

    226. Thepnr says:

      An internet troll is nothing like a previously No voter visiting this site in order to learn more.

      Internet Troll
      A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues. Such arguments can happen on blogs, Facebook, Myspace and a host of others.
      The best thing you can do to fight an internet troll is to not answer…

      This site has battled trolls of various sorts for years and I’m sure will(must)continue to do so. Trolls do bring down sensible discussion through the petty arguments and declining readership and following of the website in question is the ultimate result.

      Look no further than the Scotsman for evidence of such.

    227. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Sensible dave should be ignored and blanked.

      He only turned up here to cause distracting shit that screws up the thread.

      And he looks to be managing it.

      Sensible Dave -fuck off and die.

      Bastards like you are what kept Scotland in this fucking disgrace of a union, strangled by the totally undemocratic mess that is the shithole establishment.

      People on Wings who are supporting your divisive peurile moronic nonsense are deluding themselves if they think engaging and encouraging your poisonous unionist garbage is the way to go.

      Be aware this site is under increasing infiltration by new wankers like sensible and various other sleepers,and it’s gonna get worse.

      Don’t allow this to happen.

    228. Petra says:

      Thanks to X_Sticks and Lollysmum for the advice re. printing off data. GREAT help as I would have been copying and pasting!

      I’ve been looking for some of Pete Wishart’s speeches in the Commons to no avail but came across Philipa Whitfords on the NHS. She really knows her stuff and is totally impressive and positively decent which I think many in the Commons find refreshing (in relation to all of the SNP MPs in fact). I also think that they’re educating many politicians in the Commons in relation to how bad things are in the south versus north, opening their eyes in a way, that didn’t happen when people like Curran and Hood were hanging about.

      Amazing too that the situation is so much better up here (we know it) that one female MSP from the North of England is really concerned that their Doctors will move over the border from say Carlyle to Dumfries. I wonder if the BBC / MSM will mention that? If interested PW is on from around 17:10PM

      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b8aee046-33ff-402d-9e03-31bff8e29ff0

      @ skooshcase says at 7:16 pm ”Petra, if you’re responding to what is being posted in reply to what sensibledave says, but I believe your mistaken. And, sorry to say it, but you’ve been had ……..

      Thanks for taking the time to post, skooshcase, in response to what I said earlier. To be honest, and I’m not wanting to be hurtful to anyone when I say this, but I don’t actually read his posts (and some others). So do ignore him / them.

      I’ve just noticed that some comments on here are quite often personally nasty and can’t figure out why some people allow themselves to be ‘flamed’ as you would say. I reckon (have been told in fact) that some people don’t post on here for that very reason. It’s putting them off. I’d rather just either answer someone civilly or not respond to them at all. I don’t see it as a weakness. It’s just the way I see things and understand that some on here don’t agree with me. I also think that we’ve had some people posting on here that do more damage to this site than sensible dave. Trolls in disguise?

    229. Dr Jim says:

      We don’t want you to leave the UK we want Scotland to lead the UK said David Cameron
      We are a family of equals he said

      Except when it comes to representing our interests in talks with other nations like Fishing, Agriculture, Foreign Affairs and what’s the latest one, Energy where Fergus Ewing our Energy Minister, (who has forgotten more about that area than Savid Javid is likely to ever learn) isn’t allowed to take part to save our Steel Industry

      The Tory line once again is that they, and only they speak for the whole of the United Kingdom
      Well how Fukcing united is that? How Fukcing equal is that?

      There are only two Kingdoms within the United Kingdom and we’re the other one thank you very much and we don’t even get on the Subs Bench

      The people who voted NO had better start waking up to the fact if they don’t start getting annoyed about any of this shit
      Blaming the Scottish Government because they were Too Stupid, Too Bigoted, or Too Comfortable will be Too Late

    230. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Can I just remind readers and commenters, what it says on ‘this page’ above the comment box?

      “2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).

      And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists. We’ll decide if someone’s trolling or not. But in the meantime, if you think they are, ignore them.

      If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.

      Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives, and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.”

    231. ArtyHetty says:

      Ken500@7.58pm

      A good point, we do seem to tolerate the unionist commenters too much of the time and they are a waste of time and resources. They try to appear to be making cohesive comments, and to be part of the conversation, while in fact they are attempting to steer the debate to their own and their employers, ie, establishments ends.

      However, there are some fantastic people on here who outwit these timewasters.

      Just make sure we give them lots of rope in the process. We must ignore the long, boring comments by the likes of notsosensibledave.

      Take no prisoners.

    232. Robert Peffers says:

      @Patrician says: 28 October, 2015 at 12:49 pm:

      “I seem to remember reading somewhere that the UK average spend figure commonly used, actually excludes London spending.

      Actually you are both right and wrong.

      The way they do the books is really convoluted and daft.

      It is difficult to explain this clearly in ordinary terms.

      First of all they produce figures for the UK ministries as a whole. For example, The United Kingdom Ministry of Transport. However, they have devolved responsibility for transport to N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales and that means also devolving the funding for this from the UK Ministry of Transport to the devolved administrations.

      But wait! Doesn’t that mean the Ministry of Transport is actually just the Ministry of Transport for England?

      Well no it doesn’t for there is the organisation called, “Transport for London”, and it is at present carrying out the, “London Cross Rail Scheme”, and that is NOT funded under usual English infrastructure funding which should come under DEFRA. Likewise there was of recent years a refurbishment of every London rail & bus terminal.

      Then we have such as a one off special, £4.1 bn, “New London Sewerage System”, funded from Government Reserves. This one included a hefty one-of subsidy to every last household served by the London Water provider.

      As to how the devolved funding works it goes like this – they use the Barnett Formula to work out the per capita shares of the total Ministry funding for N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales, (in that order as N.I has most devolved functions, then Scotland and Wales with the least devolved functions.

      Now they do not specify how the funds are to be spent so the devolved administrations can spend it how they wish but they do apply Barnett Consequentials. These can be either positive or negative and are the consequence of the UK ministry funding for England, (as the UK). If they cut English,(UK, funding then it is a Negative Barnett Consequential and it they increase the English, (UK), funding it is positive Consequentials.

      But what of such funding for the London based, “The National”, Museums, Ballet, Opera, et al?

      Now you know one very good reason they DO NOT want a separate Parliament of England hence EVAL.

    233. North Chiel says:

      O/T however I listened incredulously (regards the “conclusion”) to
      an interview on “BBC” Radio Scotland circa 0630am this morning
      where the administrator of a food bank ( I think Dumfries )
      discussed the increase in people requesting food parcels and being referred
      ( principally by DWP ) to food banks unable to feed themselves
      / families due to sanctions/ loss of benefits etc.
      The gentleman indicated that this was putting a strain on food banks
      “viability/income” and his solution was that his organisation
      should be able to “invoice” the SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT at he suggested
      £7 per food parcel to supplement his organisation’s income.
      Might I suggest that this gentleman should “possibly consider”
      sending his “invoice” to IAN DUNCAN SMITH C/O DWP WESTMINSTER LONDON
      PS The BBC interviewer never even “batted an eyelid” when his “bill” to Holyrood
      was suggested !

    234. skooshcase says:

      @Petra

      Nae bother!

      “I’d rather just either answer someone civilly or not respond to them at all.”

      Yes, you’re right. Well said!

      “I don’t see it as a weakness.”

      And it isn’t. Not at all.

    235. yesindyref2 says:

      @skooshcase
      The thing is skooshcase that sensibledave made a general point about the SNP EVEL thing being rubbish, therefore the SNP are like other parties and lie, and nobody so far has pinned him down to – what is his specific complaint about what is wrong with the SNP webpage? He says:

      “I was pointed to the SNP web site and the pages on the SNP policy with respect to EVEL. In all fairness, a more distorted picture of the “truth” would be hard to write.”

      Unless he’s pinned down on that, and it’s quite easy to do so, “what pages plural, which part of that page (or pages), what he says stands unchallenged as far as the casual viewer is concerned.

      sensibledave is wrong in what he says, I have the one single relevant SNP article about EVEL in another tab of my browser, read it last Friday, and have read it again.

    236. shug says:

      Stu

      start a fund raiser and use the money

      – to do a blue book analyzing some BBC “errors”
      – promoting Wings
      – advertising

      I am sure Professor Robertson would have some interesting material if you did not have enough -ha ha

      It would choke Neil and the BBC to see you profiting from their misrepresentation of the news.

    237. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @BDTT,

      yes fully agree – I thought we were supposed to have a “Don’t feed the trolls” policy.

      It worked fine before…

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      OK, here we go, since BDTT kindly reminded me. You said “I was pointed to the SNP web site and the pages on the SNP policy with respect to EVEL.”

      The page I can find, relevant to the actual EVEL variant in the House at the moment is this:

      http://www.snp.org/english_votes_for_english_laws_what_does_it_mean_and_how_will_it_work

      1. Do you disagree with the current procedure description “Currently …”?
      2. Do you disagree with the SNP description of Stage one, Stage two, Stage three, Stage four, or Post House of Lords stage?

      3. Do you disagree with “What does it mean?”
      a) Scottish MPs will become second-class citizens in the House of Commons. These EVEL plans exclude MPs from Scotland, and from other areas outside England, from voting on legislation that could have consequentials and effects on other parts of the UK.
      b) There are also financial implications – as decisions taken for England only can lead to changes to Scotland’s budget from the UK Government.
      c) These plans also put the Speaker in a position where he needs to make political decisions, with no clear procedure about how he will make decisions on ‘certifying’ a bill as England only.

      or do you disagree with “What could it affect?”

      Why?

    239. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      Oh I forgot, are there any other currently relevant pages on EVEL on the SNP website you disagree with?

    240. Paula Rose says:

      I used to feed on the trolls but they became increasingly lacking in flavour or else rather bitter – so now I’m just nice to everyone.

    241. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      john king at 5.40

      Your post really enrages me.
      Have you the faintest idea how many endless hours the “big guns” spent throughout that campaign , morning noon and night, attending rallies, addressing meetings,walking the streets and trying to get themselves seen on the media that was almost universally and very deliberately blanking them.

      Do you seriously think our “big guns” would have got any more than the odd minute on the TV or in the papers as the unionist establishment went into overdrive in panic in the last couple of weeks of the campaign.

      Have you faintest idea of the hundreds – nay thousands – of packed meetings in every community in Scotland supporting YES in which our “big guns” met face to face the thousands of new foot soldiers that were flooding to the cause.

      Why the feck do you think the SNP has 114,000 members?

    242. galamcennalath says:

      The following is by Pete Wishart. It makes WM sound like the first encounter between two alien civilisations in deep space!

      Certainly explains a lot!

      “They simply observe us with something approaching slack-jawed bewilderment.

      It’s quite easy to understand why. The Tories are consumed with issues such as deficit reduction, immigration and EU membership. The little they know about the SNP can be confined to a sort of Daily Mail grievance about the Barnett formula and a commentary about the threat we pose to their union. We were the approaching ‘Jockalypse’ and characterised as a ‘threat’ with adverts showing us as pickpockets and thieves. For them, our Scottish concerns and contributions about austerity, nuclear weapons and more powers for our Parliament seem almost incomprehensible. SNP and Tory MPs also couldn’t be more disparate. Tory MPs are recruited from a totally different social background and our life experiences couldn’t be more different.

      So, how are they approaching this new and evolving relationship? Well, it seems to be to try and provoke Scotland as much as possible. Since the General Election, the Tories have opted to intentionally go out their way to antagonise and goad the Scots.”

    243. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 28 October, 2015 at 1:18 pm:

      “Why try to chase individuals who don’t agree with us off of this site? “

      Oh! Get Real! Petra. No one is chasing anyone away. They are being criticised for attempting to treat us as idiots. I’ve pointed out to sensibledave that his self claimed, “objectivity”, is in no way objective. In fact it is downright insulting to claim it is.

      The Rev goes to great lengths to produce a brilliant article that not only sites its sources but explains them very well indeed.

      sensibledave, then brags about his objectivity but his entire argument is simply that he read an SNP webpage and it was full of lies. He did not even indicate which points he, (sd), though were lies nor what was wrong with them.

      It was no more, no less, than, “In my opinion the SNP claims are lies”. What were these claimed lies? Where also was there proofs of them being lies?

      sd wrote a whole screed of bullshit that said no more than, “I say the SNP are wrong” – 18 letters & 5 spaces yet sd rambles on saying bugger all for the whole long time-wasted screed.

      If he wants to debate points – that’s fine – if he just wants to insult our intelligence and waste our time then he can indeed get lost. There are well defined rules for debate and a good debate is enjoyable. What these guys are doing IS NOT debate it is shit slinging monkey style.

    244. One_Scot says:

      thomaspotter2014, you pretty much knocked it out the ball park with that one.

      Any post that is by, or has reference to retardeddick, I don’t even bother to read. Which is probably half of all posts.

      And I’m sure I’m not the only one.

      He is single handedly intentionally killing this website, but the really annoying thing is, we are helping him do it.

    245. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Well, let’s see if sensibledave answers my two postings.

    246. heedtracker says:

      If you really want to bug red or blue unionists like sensibledave, ask them stuff.

    247. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      Yes, great comment by Pete Wishart, the teeth of the SNP. The SNP need teeth because to be toothless in tone or deed will eventually result in obscurity.

      The SNP are doing a great job in representing Scotland at Westmister under the constraints they face day in day out.

      More teeth in show during this Tory governments slashing of the Social Security budgets would be most welcomed by me.

      Get Tommy Shephard more up front. He’ll tell them.

    248. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 5:36 pm

      You wrote: Sensibledave, I love Bojo. At the very least he’s honest ….,

      … I voted for him when he was my local MP (when he was Henley and Thame) (bit more info for you Heedy. He scraped home with a majority of about 40,000 I think.

      So, who’d of thought that we both like the same politician.

    249. Col says:

      Anyone else notice how many Scottish journalists there are on the BBC these days outwith BBC jockland?
      I think this is a deliberate ploy, I think I would be annoyed if I was an English journalist looking to get a good position only to be beaten due to positive discrimination so that the jocks feel they are part of this glorious UK.

    250. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fran says: 28 October, 2015 at 6:20 pm:

      “Again I have sat and explained after this years down turn in oil prices, that Scotland only gets 8.4% of the revenues allocated as that’s the size of our population ratio to the UK and rUK gets the rest. And Scotland would not be fucked if it were independent.

      Then, Fran, please stop doing that part for it is utterly and completely wrong.

      Scotland does not even get a penny of oil & gas revenues. The entire revenue goes through the books of the United Kingdom as being from, “Extra- Regio-Territory”, and is TOTALLY counted as being a United Kingdom Treasury asset. Not a half-penny of it is given to Scotland.

      The ONLY income Scotland gets is via the Scottish Block Grant and that is totally decided by the Westminster, (de facto parliament of England), by use of The Barnett Formula. No matter what the price of a barrel of oil it makes not one whit of difference to the Scottish block grant.

      That 8.4% is nothing other than a per capita figure used to form statistics for the many convoluted lists and charts they use to prove whatever bullshit they happen to be pushing at any particular moment. For example when they work out the Scottish per capita GDP. In this case they credit Scotland with having EARNED 8.4% of the oil & gas revenue, instead of the true 95% from Scottish waters, but WE DO NOT GET ANY ACTUAL OIL & GAS MONEY WHATSOEVER.

      When the price of oil & gas goes back up Scotland’s share of it will amount to exactly ZERO. I’ll say it againSCOTLAND GETS NO OIL & GAS REVENUES..

    251. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers & Indyref2

      Firstly, this issue has only come up again in the context of me pointing out that all politicians and parties lie.

      Secondly, we did all this last Friday (the analysis of the SNP verbiage on EVEL) which is why I have tried to avoid doing it all again. It is not me revisiting the subject, it is Robert Peffers that insists that I respond to his “challenge”.

      So, lets skip straight down to the “what does it mean” and the “what could it affect” section on EVEL on the SNP web site.

      “What does it mean?
      Scottish MPs will become second-class citizens in the House of Commons. These EVEL plans exclude MPs from Scotland, and from other areas outside England, from voting on legislation that could have consequentials and effects on other parts of the UK”

      …… Skip the bit about “second class citizens” and we’ll save that for another time and move onto the second sentence. The sentence is rubbish, poppycock, a total misrepresentation of the truth or, more to the point – a lie! The EVEL plans do not exclude MPs from Scotland voting on English Only laws – quite the reverse. The whole House has to pass a law that is deemed English Only

      “There are also financial implications – as decisions taken for England only can lead to changes to Scotland’s budget from the UK Government”

      …. but decisions taken for England have to be voted by all MPs, including Scottish MPs!

      “These plans also put the Speaker in a position where he needs to make political decisions, with no clear procedure about how he will make decisions on ‘certifying’ a bill as England only.”

      …… But whether a law is “England Only” or not – the whole House must pass the Bill for it to become law – so either way, Scottish MPs get to vote.

      “What could it affect?

      Many issues which may appear to be ‘England-only’ can often have knock-on consequences in terms of Scotland’s public finances – for example decisions on NHS spending. The SNP would look to vote against any privatisation of the NHS to protect Scotland’s budget as well as retaining the NHS as a proper public service in England.”

      …. English only laws can only be passed after being passed by the whole House including Scottish MPs. If a Bill was brought forward to increase spending on NHS in England – then the whole House, including Scottish MPs would be voting on it.

      “Any plans and subsequent legislation to build a third runway at Heathrow would also appear only to relate to England, but will have a huge knock-on effect in Scotland.

      …. And any laws that involve building a third runway at Heathrow – whether it was English only or not – would have to be passed by the whole House including Scottish MPs.

      So, in summary, the whole section is a diatribe of nonsense ranging from the misdirection of the gullible – through to straight, bald faced lies.

      For the sake of balance, and if I could be bothered, I could probably do a similar job on a Tory or Labour page – and that was my point. Politicians lie. Parties Lie. Governments lie – including the government of Scotland.

    252. nodrog says:

      Come on folks. Is this a “Sensibledave” website or a Wings over Scotland website? Give us a break and get back on track.

    253. dakk says:

      Trolls on this site can be quite useful in sharpening the arguments and defences which we require when encountering the 3D unionist trolls in real life situations.

      So in moderation I see them as a necessary evil who can sometimes add a bit of colour to some threads.

      In fact did the birthday boy himself not troll the Gaellic a few weeks back ?

    254. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      28 October, 2015 at 10:44 pm
      Robert Peffers & Indyref2

      What about me sensible. Why did Cammers wait until the day after our referendum to announce EVEL for example?

      Clearly you’re not the kind of unionist to debate real world stuff like EVEL suddenly appearing in Cammers triumphant vote NO victory speech, the day after.

    255. mealer says:

      Sensibledave 10.44,

      But atleast the government of Scotland isn’t led by a bunch of evil bastards.

    256. Paula Rose says:

      @ Dakk – not really because it strengthened the case for Gaelic and had a positive effect in people wanting to learn the language – opposite effect to what a troll is after. Called “wingin’ it” in Scots.

    257. Fireproofjim says:

      To whom it concerns (lots of us).
      Please stop gaining on and on and on and on about sensible dave.
      It contributes nothing to this site and apart from feeding his ego it is a bloody boring waste of good reading time.

    258. gordoz says:

      Well, well, well…

      Kevin Hague – Businessman & Angrybrit political blogger gets a respectability award via appearance on BBC Northland 2015 tonight.

      Dear God ??

      Aye a great start for the heid bummer at the BBC News right enough.

    259. heedtracker says:

      gordoz says:
      28 October, 2015 at 11:10 pm
      Well, well, well…

      Keverage is tory unionist hardcore. Ofcourse he’s on corrupt old BBC. They’d have on a smoking monkey if it did all that UKOK unionist stuff like Kev.

    260. Paula Rose says:

      I so agree with what Fireproofjim says – leave it to the one or two who do the quick re-buttal.

    261. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      Thanks for the answer, busy at the moment.

      But as a quick answer, you’re totally forgetting about the power of veto which could include opposition bills, including possible votes of no confidence which go through at least some (not sure if all) stages. So “This opposition thinks the Conseratives are totally incompetent at running the sawmill in Chopping Sodbury”, ruled as EVEL, vetoed by the Conservative majority in stage 3. But what about our tasty pork scratchings in Scotland, covered in sawdust?

      Secondly of course is that when any bill comes back from the Lords, with amendments, it needs a double vote, which means the English only part can veto and kill the bill rather than face the whole Parliament, to set off another. Like the tax credits, for instance, if that had been EVEL, they could veto it and stuff it in the budget, rather than face humiliation in the HoC when it could pass as amended. Clearly that example is not an EVEL one, but the same thing could happen.

      EVEL makes Scots MPs second-class!

    262. @gordoz

      I believe it has been re branded as the British Comedy Channel in Scotland bringing you the top wankers supplied by the extensive Labour party monopoly in that department.

    263. gordoz says:

      O/T – Some excellent points raised by Prof Robertson on BBC Labour cosiness & next SNPbad strategy. nia Newsnet

      http://newsnet.scot/?p=115882

    264. dakk says:

      Paula Rose

      True,but maybe the responses to some of the trolls here strengthens our arguments and resolve.

      Some of the likes of sensibledave’s arguments are what end up in the public narrative,so when they are addressed here,then we know the answers and are more sure of our ground.

      Perhaps there is a spectrum for trolling and some are benign.At least some of the time.

    265. K1 says:

      That’s sensible PR 🙂

    266. Paula Rose says:

      Never mind an autonomous Scottish Labour party or whether Andrew is a pillock or how rich we would have been if… The main thing is – I like the sound of an Autonomous Scotland – good enough for the political parties then I’m quite sure it’s good enough for the rest of us.

    267. Iain says:

      Interesting. Despite having lived a life in Scotland well past the half century mark, and being well acquainted with the country’s public life and persons of note, I’ve never heard of him. He appears to have an education in engineering, not economics, and is an ‘entrepreneur’ who has a three small companies run from units on industrial estates. Previously, there were several other small companies. Hmm. That’s never a good sign.

      Crucially, though, like so many shouty unionists, he does not evince an engaging and attractive personality. Nice, normal people do not want to live in a Scotland where their like prevail.

    268. Paula Rose says:

      @ Dakk – my point was primarily to do with the idea that the Rev was trolling – if he was then he failed to a spectacular degree. If he was channelling Lucifer’s bidding then he succeeded.

    269. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2 11:19 pm

      … You make a valiant defence of the indefensible – but I responded, as requested, to the points and statements on the SNP website.

      I stick by my original statement – that whoever wrote that stuff was either a totally clueless imbecile – or a liar.

    270. Iain says:

      Another interesting thing about Kevin Hague is that he claims to have attended secondary school after he obtained a degree in mechanical engineering from Strathclyde Uni … https://uk.linkedin.com/in/khague

    271. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sensibledave says: 28 October, 2015 at 8:08 pm:

      “Maybe, to save time, just read the last couple of examples about the English NHS and Heathrow – then come back and tell me how EVEL could possibly achieve what the
      author suggests it might.”

      When you learn how to construct a proper argument I may condescend to debate with you. Just understand that the majority of commenters on this forum are accustomed to scrolling past your comments.

      I personally don’t mind long posts that are full of relevant and interesting details. In your case I find they ramble on without much relevance. They are thus, of little interest. Another fact is that you seem to believe others are hanging on your every word – they are not.

      I often post long screeds but am under no false beliefs that all others must find them of interest or are compelled to read them. Now explain to me again why I should go and seek out your past comments?

      As to the English NHS and Heathrow, (without bothering with your take on the matter), allow me to point out a couple of probable facts. Westminster is not the English Parliament and there is no such thing as English only funding via the United Kingdom Ministries.

    272. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      It’s difficult to make scenarios, it always is. The problem is that EVEL departs from the principle of the UK Parliament.

      Basically Scotland, Wales and NI had referendums and have legally set up Parliaments, England doesn’t. The UK Parliament legislates on UK legislation and English legislation with the same Government, and the same MPs voted in at the same Election using the same rules, with the same rights and privileges.

      Now it doesn’t.

    273. Paula Rose says:

      Sorry folks still on a bit of a stream of consciousness roll –

      Autonomous Scotland. Aye Scotland. A Scotland.

      I like the sound of that.

    274. @sensibledave

      Get real anyone who puts sensible as part of their moniker is an arrogant idiot as your logic shows.

    275. Chic McGregor says:

      I think the Rev. is well aware of the value of letting ‘Sensible’ Dave carry on.

    276. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s a question a lot of us have probably been asked and answered, and it’s one that will be asked, in sensible or accusatory or even troll-like forms, but it’s the same question. It’s actually an implied two-part one. I know the answers I’d give and it depends on the person, but it could be taken for a “troll” by some:

      “Since the UK subsidises us in Scotland, how can we manage if we’re independent and don’t get Westminster handouts?”.

      That sort of thing has been asked of me a few times during the Ref, and since, not by trolls but by normal and normally sensible people who’ve been taken in by the MSM.

    277. dakk says:

      Paula Rose. 11.36

      Ye I think he was probably playing Beelzebub’s proponent,and it was a form of benign trolling.

      I must say I enjoy reading all of the responses to the ‘trolls’ on here, whether it’s heedtracker’s fronting up,or yesindyref2s research type ripostes.

    278. Paula Rose says:

      @ yesindyref2 – ask them if it is right that people should scrounge off others rather than take responsibility for their actions.

    279. Betty Boop says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon, 8:51pm

      Can I just remind readers and commenters, what it says on ‘this page’ above the comment box?

      “2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).

      And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists. etc., etc.

      Hi Brian, the voice of reason in a sea of belligerence; good on you.

      Some here are quite puffed up with their own importance and could start wars in an empty country. It’s not just those so-called trolls who “seek out people to argue with on the internet…” (sic).

      I agree with Petra that some folk are wary of posting on the site. Whether on the net or face to face discussion, personal insults and boorish behaviour add nothing to a debate. None of us are perfect and frustration can get the better of us, but, it doesn’t excuse us.

      Before anyone takes me to task for saying so, I don’t care, so you’ll be wasting effort which you could spend more usefully.

      Thanks, Stu, for the excellent article up to your usual high standard. Anyone who thinks they are a journalist out there, pay attention.

    280. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 11:41 pm

      Robert, you asked me to reference the lies and misdirection – you insisted upon it – despite me saying we had already done it.

      You wrote “You simply claimed you found the SNP statements to be lies. No specific points, no figures, no references and no proofs. Just your claim they told lies in your opinion.”

      No Robert. I referenced you back to the previous point by point analysis in another thread/

      Then at 11.41 you wrote “As to the English NHS and Heathrow, (without bothering with your take on the matter), allow me to point out a couple of probable facts. Westminster is not the English Parliament and there is no such thing as English only funding via the United Kingdom Ministries.

      … it is slowly, oh so slowly, dawning on you Robert isn’t it.

      The making of new laws, whether they cover the whole of the UK or whether they are just for England, or England and Wales, have to be passed by a majority in the whole House – including Scottish MPs.

      The SNP web site’s characterisation of EVEL is totally, utterly wrong – from beginning to end – and you know it.

      Now leave it, accept it for what it is (i.e total rubbish) and move on.

    281. @yesindyref2

      Why did one leave home in the first place then? I mean virtually free meals washing, clean bed and alleged secure life of old Riley. What’s not to like as long as stagnation is ones goal.

    282. Garrion says:

      Hmm. Maybe no one wanted to be this guy’s dad because they thought he was a narcissistic sociopath and an asshole.

      Just sayin.

    283. yesindyref2 says:

      @Paula Rose
      Yes, that can be appropriate at times. It was / is mostly people I know, a little or well, so what I do is firstly try to get them to mistrust what they hear on TV or read in the media, and to form their own opinions. Maybe if there’s time point them in some directions to get info, and maybe go through some figures.

      I’m not a convincer though, it’s their choice, just a “warmer”, hopefully a mind-opener, it needs a “closer” to go in later and get the deal – the YES vote 🙂

      I have found it effective though.

    284. Paula Rose says:

      Many of us who comment here often meet up at rallies and organised social get-togethers, I would like to inform all those who comment or read that have not attended such events…

      We are not homogenous – we have differences, we fall out, we solve our differences but we have a unity of purpose, we want to leave behind us a better country.

    285. sensibledaved says:

      yesindyref2 11:43 pm

      You wrote “Basically Scotland, Wales and NI had referendums and have legally set up Parliaments, England doesn’t.”

      Again, you are covering ground that was discussed last Friday. There was a General Election. The Tories put EVEL in their Manifesto and, for example, the SNP also covered EVEL in their manifesto. We have a new Government as a result of the GE. That government brought forward new standing Orderes to be voted on by the whole House. EVEL has been passed.

      EVEL is a change. EVEL gives a very small amount of devolved powers to English MPs – but far less than other MPs in the other Home Nations. It is a truism that devolving power takes rights away from people that used to hold all the power. When the Scottish Parliament was formed, MPs from across the UK gave up their right to influence law making at all – across a huge raft of Departments

      Contrary to what many here thought, English MPs have no powers to create new laws – only the power to veto new laws that apply only to the English. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that.

      as a result of laws passed by Parliament.e Government, and the same MPs voted in at the same Election using the same rules, with the same rights and privileges.

      Now it doesn’t.

    286. dakk says:

      Paula Rose. 12.19

      ‘Many of us who comment on here meet up at rallies’

      I will try make the next one in Glasgow, but find it hard to get time to socialise much.

      I am also painfully shy. 🙂

    287. yesindyref2 says:

      @cynicalHighlander
      Well, yes. The problem is back to the original one – people don’t like change, they fear it, they’re uncertain, and unless they think it’s an attractive proposition they vote for no change, the default.

    288. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 11.52

      That indeed is the only argument we have to win and we wont win until we do so

    289. Paula Rose says:

      (Dakk – I used to be xx)

    290. Onwards says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      28 October, 2015 at 11:52 pm
      Here’s a question a lot of us have probably been asked and answered, and it’s one that will be asked, in sensible or accusatory or even troll-like forms, but it’s the same question. It’s actually an implied two-part one. I know the answers I’d give and it depends on the person, but it could be taken for a “troll” by some:

      “Since the UK subsidises us in Scotland, how can we manage if we’re independent and don’t get Westminster handouts?”.

      —-

      If anyone believes that, you would think questions would be asked as to how resource-rich Scotland arrived in that position as part of this wonderful union, when similar sized countries are doing far better.

      It’s amusing how many Tories argue for benefits on a national level.

    291. Onwards says:

      Of course, after independence we have the chance to do things differently.

      I wonder if many who believe Scotland needs to be subsidised, could be influenced by that opportunity ?
      Is it worth it for the Scottish Government to take a small hit in the first year of independence, but to have the potential for far higher annual growth rates that we currently have ?

      I think in reality, the boost in international visibility and publicity we would get from becoming the world’s newest nation state would result in a huge permanent boost for Scottish business, exports and tourism. There is a lot of goodwill abroad.

      I don’t think the YES campaign ever tried to put a figure on anything like that.

    292. R-type Grunt says:

      Is everyone called Dave a twat?

    293. yesindyref2 says:

      @Onwards
      Indeed. Drove me crackers seeing for instance the tourism sector having cold feet. You what? The latest Independent country, branded as SCOTLAND (not S******), new full capital city for the capital city tick list, what will the place be like?

      The business sector, oooh well, problems problems mutter. What? Eh? Are you business people or mice? Opportunities beyond belief, not problems past disbelief.

      HQs. Any company doing a fair bit of business won’t be able to just jump in a car and head up the M6, minimum they need is a country branch office, and probably an HQ. Now that’s not minimum wages for most, it’s high level jobs.

      And then the property sector, oh dear, prices, people moving. Yes they’ll be moving. INTO flaming Scotland, not out of it.

      I could go on.

      What was missing was the conservatives, small c, the wealth creators, perhaps scared off by a socialist paradise idea. HELLO people, have you ever heard of ELECTIONS?

      Salmond had it right, New Celtic Tiger. Unfortunately that got off the rails because of the banks and Ireland hit hard. But Ireland is back now …

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      I forgot embassies. Mostly in NO voting Edinburgh, but also Glasgow – and Aberdeen and Perth.

      Only 4% of Conservatives votetd YES according to the other Ashcroft.

      That’s 96% of Conservatives need to go to specsavers.

    295. manandboy says:

      Speaking at PM’s Questions, David Cameron said: “If we don’t get what we need in our negotiations I rule nothing out, but I do think it’s important that as we have this debate as a nation that we are very clear about the facts and figures of the alternatives.” BBC website

      Pity he preferred a Smear & Fear Campaign instead of facts and figures in the Indy debate.

      Compare and contrast the two referendums as and when the EU Ref happens – it should be very enlightening.

    296. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2 2.15am

      Couldn’t agree more. The opportunities for the business sector simply require imagination, a little courage and a pinch of initiative.

      There are the knock on positive effects in production sectors for those with the eyes to see. Take for instance graphics and print. This is an industry which has suffered more than its fair share of casualties since 2008. Many a well known B1 and B2 name has disappeared since 2008, the remainder in the commercial print sector holding on by the skin of their teeth and ever dwindling margins, just to get work in the door.

      Now picture the revolution in rebranding that would occur in the wake of a YES vote for independence. There would be a tidal wave of commercial print from all sectors public and private as the entire country rebranded itself. There literally wouldn’t be enough hours in the day to handle the influx of work as public and private sector contracts took off big time.

      Imagine central and local government print contracts alone, leaving aside all other sectors for a moment, as new policies, initiatives and information changes would take effect almost immediately. From central government down through regions, to every council ward. It would be a dripping roast of print and graphics contracts for an industry whose survivors in this current climate have managed to weather the storm so far.

    297. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      It’s frustrating. We used to have this sort of discussion at the end of threads in the Guardian, new politics, even a proper Conservative party away from the malign UK influence. Balance between wealth makers and social policies, left and right as in economy, happily co-existing.

      What it needed, and will need for Indy Ref 2, is for this sort of discussion to go mainstream, for some adventurous TV open debates, captains of sectors to talk about the possibilities, explore the vision. Rather than the fear, doom and gloom we were subjected to.

      It will happen ❗

    298. john king says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says
      “john king at 5.40

      Your post really enrages me.”

      Save your rage Dave,
      we all know how the msm planned and won the referendum by closing down the YES message and trolling morning noon and night the UKOK propoganda,

      But the SNP knew that would happen and did bugger all about it, I spent my time pushing papier mache through letter boxes, that should have been the SNP equvalent of Rev Stu’s unsurpassed WBB it should have been on every billboard and in in the advertising features of every paper (lets see the bastards turn down hard cash)
      instead we were given weak posters to hand out, we should have been able to take the uninformed by the throat and shake them until they came to their senses, instead we had Blair Jenkins telling everyone the BBC is not biased

      SO SPARE ME THE RAGE DAVE WE ALL FEEL IT.

    299. Gavin Barrie says:

      One small comment.

      Look at the heat, light and noise created by SensibleDave and the energy he sucks up from people debating with him. Look at the friction caused between people who think we should and should not engage with SensibleDave.

      He must be laughing his bum off at how he is disturbing the focus and attention of the people of this site.

      “Do not feed the trolls” 😉

    300. Tony Little says:

      @john king 6.15am

      Ah yes – Blair Jenkins. What about him? Ex-BBC, OBE, insider (?) supposed to know how to get the message out and a good manager.

      In my opinion he presided over one of the worst centrally managed campaigns ever. Had it not been for the hundreds of small groups up and down the country I honestly think YES would have struggled to get past 35% and that would have set us back years.

      Where was the rebuttal unit? Where were the aggressive reactions to the NO lies? Why did we stick to the mantra of the “positive campaign beats a negative campaign” when SOME reaction was justified and necessary? Was it ALL down to Alex’s view?

      Some suspect BJ real motives. I’ll leave that to others to ponder, but I want him no where near ANYTHING to do with IndyRef2

    301. Ken500 says:

      What is really annoying is the Independence supporters who keep on criticising the SNP whose members finance their campaigns and allows the Party to do the best they can with one hand tied behind their backs. The whole Unionists establishment agin them. That is really annoying. All because people voted NO. The Independence supporters doing the Unionist dirty work for them.

      Bus passes, personal care, prescription charges, low student loans, mitigated the bedroom tax, nursery places, mitigating benefit changes. Borders railways, new Forth crossing, AWPR, improvements to Edinburgh to Glasgow railways,road improvements all on or under budget and on time.

      Andrew Neil is a liar who has been lying for the BBC/Press for years. Cameron/Osbourne are amateurs who will ruin the UK economy, just as Thatcher did. Over 3 million unemployed and interest rates at 15%. Banking deregulation. The Building Societies, owned by ther members, sold off. Utilities sold off and now run by foreign State owned companies. The vulnerable are being starved. £170Bilion cost for Trident, £18Billion for a Chinese nuclear plant, and £70Billion for a ‘white elephant’ rail line. How much for Heathrow? It takes a day (and a night) to get through it.

      The Oil sector is being destroyed not because of the barrel price but because of the tax. Thousands of jobs are being lost. BP to terminal their NS Oil at Rotterdam and by pass Sullim Voe.

      Promised the VOW being given EVEL.

    302. frogesque says:

      The BBC is biased, its job is to BE biased! Of course it will promote a Unionist line. It’s part of its very DNA.

      YES2 needs to find experienced broadcasters out with the Union bubble to examine Carly the case for Indy. They will not come from the BBC.

      Providing it can remain Scottish there is some hope for STV presenters but it will be a hard slog. I think a direct approach to programme makers and directors needs to be made. Persuade them there is both milage and viewers to be had in examining the case.

      Howling “bias” will not do it as it turns folk off. If the argument cannot be made then we have to damned well make the programmes ourselves. We have the talent, all we need is the voice.

    303. john king says:

      Absolutely Tony
      the YES campaign was probably THE most inspiring thing I have ever been involved in but it had nothing to do with the official campaign, the groups local heroes like George Kempic and others were the driving force of the campaign, the thousands of volunteers who went out in all weathers without any fanfare, there are people on here who could lay claim to being the centre of local groups who, without them your right Tony we would have struggled to get to 40%,

      If the campaign had been led by the people who’s passion for the fight was unarguable we would have won it out of the park. the gloves should have come off in the last few weeks and we ended the campaign looking like we had nothing to counter the empty promises by Cameron and his crocodile tears,

      ROBIN McALPINE FOR NEXT LEADER!

      BTW I spent absolutely no time on the YES campaign website AT ALL!

    304. Ken500 says:

      The YES campaign would have always struggled coming from behind, with the Establishment weight agin it. It wasn’t a fair campaign and many voters have realised it. It is a big ask expecting the Unionists to play fair. It’s not within their DNA, they have been lying and cheating for years. That is why there is now 56 SNP MP’s. There would have been 59 MP’s, if 16/17 year olds were allowed to vote in the GE.

      The Unionists were given another chance for full fiscal autonomy, Federalism/Home Rule and they are failing badly. Instead of going over old ground it would be better to look to the future. There is everything to play for. Starting at the Holyrood elections 6 months away. Vote all the Unionists out. Then the council elections. EU Ref. The Tories/Unionists will be on the way out and a new Independence Ref will be on the agenda. No taxation without representation.
      Referendum will be on the

    305. ronnie anderson says:

      Getting in late last night I did,nt have time to post, but read some of the comments. Congratulations Lads N Lasses I,ll buy you,s (commentors to SD posts) a Candy Floss,he,s ah better spinner than ah Floss machine.

      How many times must Wingers APPEAL to YOU,S SENSIBLE WINGERS
      DONT FEED THE TROLLS.

    306. frogesque says:

      Carly should read ‘fairly’ above.

      Mutters incomprehensibly about auto correct and bliddy tablet!

    307. Nana Smith says:

      Previous link Ian Hamilton video is a wee reminder for us all to get motivated in getting the truth out. The tories and labour are hell bent on trashing Scotland and taking everything they can from us.

      I’m doing all I can.

      O/T links

      http://bravemany.com/my-red-line/

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/tide-turned-for-womens-representation-scotland/

      http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2015/10/23/dwp-benefit-sanctions-britains-secret-penal-system-by-dr-david-webster-university-of-glasgow/

      http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2015/10/28/workhouse-deal-is-signed-between-council-and-charity/

    308. Bob Mack says:

      Scotland has made a number of errors in past relationships with England which have contributed to the fiasco today.
      Equal Kingdoms should always have had equal representation,and not have population size determine the number of representatives

      Every decision taken in Westminster is already heavily loaded in favour of England,as exemplified by HS2, the Iraq war,and countless others,all decisions taken by a predominantly English representative body.

      Contributors like Sensibledave try to argue that EVEL is only fair and the English deserve their own voice. This is frankly laughable ,and illustrates why people like him can never accept or grasp the facts of the situation.

      If you have any doubt whatsoever, we have recently seen with our own eyes the situation that on every ocassion when the Party we have sent to Westminster to give our views and make our decisions, puts forward a proposal, regardless of how insignificant ,it is voted down such is the imbalance between English and Scottish representation.

      Sensibledave states that the Scottish MP’s will get a vote in the new process when EVEL arrives .Even this vote we already know is loaded in favour of England before it reaches the England only stage.
      Big deal ,it changes nothing. The situation is no better than before but is in fact worse.

      That is the point.

    309. john king says:

      “What is really annoying is the Independence supporters who keep on criticising the SNP”

      I dont do that lightly Ken
      but if the shoe fits
      Ive been an SNP member since 1974 and I think I’ve earned the right to criticize when I think they should have done better,

      they always knew they wouldnt get their message over using the the media and as such should have have a robust policy for getting the message over by other means, the posters and “newspapers” were very weak and all that acheived was to make people aware they were not alone but the message carried no real punch, the white book was good, but Rev Stu’s condensation of it into the WBB was what the SNP should have done and made sure it went though every letter box in the country,

      Jesus look at what a handful of people on WINGS acheived in distributing the WBB it was nothing short of a miracle, if the SNP had stopped being so sniffy about unregulated volunteer groups and harnessed that undeniable power they would have strolled to a 55% win, good God even now we struggle to get any SNP MP’S/MSP’s to acknowledge the existence of W.O.S, and all because they are afraid to counter the pish put out by th Daily Mail et al that WE are the abusers when we all know on a daily basis that its not some faceless oiks in their bedroom sitting pumping out abuse but named people in the Labour/Tory/LibDem hierarchy which is universally ignored by the media while as much as say bum to them and we’re animals who deserve to be outed and shamed.

      “Bus passes, personal care, prescription charges, low student loans, mitigated the bedroom tax, nursery places, mitigating benefit changes. Borders railways, new Forth crossing, AWPR, improvements to Edinburgh to Glasgow railways,road improvements all on or under budget and on time. ”

      All for naught after some arsehole in a leader column in a newspaper bought by the readers father since he/she was a child tells him/her Alex Salmonds a bad man,

      how many times did you hear that response Ken? when having challenged the person to tell you why he’s a bad man they cant answer they say he “just is”

    310. Glamaig says:

      Radio Scotland this morning say they have 80,000 more listeners than this time last year. I wonder how many of them, like me, are only tuning in to check up on what they are up to!

      They didn’t give any figures for complaints.

    311. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @john king

      “Blair Jenkins telling everyone the BBC is not biased”

      Yes that just summed up his contribution to the Yes campaign for me.

      Agree with a few posters – Robin McAlpine for yes2 leader. Fresh ideas and real drive and commitment – he would be a brilliant choice.

      Finally please remember – it is “Troll free Thursday”.

    312. caz-m says:

      Rev, another target for Unioinist liars could be George Osborne.

      The other day at Westminster, Stewart Hosie put a question to him regarding child poverty.

      Osborne’s reply was that Scotland is lucky that it voted to stay in the Union, because if the SNP had been the new Government of an Independent Scotland, there would have been a “£30 Billion pound black hole”. What?

      This black hole started off at £7.6 Billion, Scottish Labour pushed it out to £10 Billion and then $12 Billion.

      But £30 Billion, c’mon George, get real.

    313. Bobmack7 says:

      @John King,

      I completely agree with you John.The contributors to this site and others probably increased the Yes vote considerably Yet the site and its supporters are seemingly sidelined as being politically undesirable by the very Party we are trying to push over the finish line.
      It is almost as if we taint them in some way..
      Perhaps they have to learn to fight rather than submit to media perception.

    314. caz-m says:

      Glamaig 8.36am

      Re: BBC Radio Scotland listener figures.

      Here is a break down of the stats,

      https://media.info/radio/stations/bbc-radio-scotland/listening-figures

      ” A ‘listener’ is counted as an adult aged 15+ who listens for at least five minutes.”

      The number of people who stay listening is FALLING.

      And I want to know, how many people actually listen to the “Call Kaye” show?

    315. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Agree with John K and my big brur. Robin McAlpine is outstanding. He may not wish to be the front man but he is undoubtedly pointing the way. Heres a clip of him at Leith, think this was on the day of the Glasgow rally. Really worth watching this if you havent seen it. Key phrase,”you dont win a referendum during a referendum”. We have work to do!

      https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/2508/robin-mcalpine-how-we-win-next-time

    316. Macart says:

      @Nana

      “I’m doing all I can”

      And you do it with style. 🙂

      @Yesindyref2

      Ayup, totally agree.

      I’d like to see more discussions on the possibilities and opportunities brought forward too. Talking shops on business opportunity, society, constitution and government. Discussing ways of moving forward, integrating and reaching out one area to the other. What business/economic model, how will it benefit society and how to bring in government legislature to support both backed by constitutional reform.

      The whole deal has to mesh as tightly and seamlessly as possible. Instead of our governments looking at societies around the globe we could model ourselves upon, we could look at these countries discuss the pros and cons. Have a clear image in our minds, the nature of the country we want to build from the wreckage left by the Westminster system.

      Scotland is a talented country with so much potential in its land and its population. Its taken years to put a government in place willing to help the population achieve this potential, a government that actually believes in the people’s right to choose and was willing to ask folks the question. Well, so long as that government is in place, the people can have another opportunity and perhaps on take 2 they’ll have a little more faith in themselves and confidence in a government that was willing to hand over the future to the people.

    317. Ruby says:

      Bob Mack says:
      29 October, 2015 at 8:32 am

      Scotland has made a number of errors in past relationships with England which have contributed to the fiasco today.
      Equal Kingdoms should always have had equal representation,and not have population size determine the number of representatives

      Ruby replies

      I totally agree with that. England should have it’s own parliament and each country in the UK should have equal representation in the UK parliament, the EU & everywhere else.

    318. Clydebuilt says:

      Kaye,s Morning Mosnin’s subject is “How far should we go to save the Scottish Steel industry”
      Obviously she’s scared that the Scottish Government are going to pull something off.
      Let’s tell her how to think.

      Phone 0500929500. Text 80295

    319. caz-m says:

      John King and the SNP/YES campaign.

      John, I think we can call those years between 2012 and Sept 2014 as the “dark years”.

      I always felt that we were on our own, there was no-one to fight our corner. years of shouting at the telly or the radio and nobody was listening. (Really dark times).

      That is why the protests at Pacific Quay grew to the sizes that they did. People were just so frustrated at not being heard.

      That is also why Tommy Sheridan was such crowd puller. He was loud, he told it the way we wanted to hear it.

      Next time will be totally different, we have been there, done it and got the t-shirts.

      No more Mr nice guy’s.

    320. Ruby says:

      ‘Police ‘could face prosecution’ over M9 crash

      POLICE Scotland could face prosecution over the M9 crash incident.

      The claim came from a legal source who said’

      The Herald have printed this story based on something said by a legal source

      When I read the headline I knew it was going to be a press release from one of the Unionist parties my guess is this is a Labour party press release.

      Any guesses who the legal source might be?

      How desperate is the Herald for news stories?

    321. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      My opinion is very straighforward. The next YES campaign should be run unambiguously by the SNP.

      The problems with the YES campaign last time was the entirely generous effort by the SNP to set up a wide spectre non SNP organisation to run it which resulted particularly at the beginning in very little co-ordinated response to anything.

      Quite frankly if an independence supporting person cannot join the independence supporting party which accommodates the widest range of political views united in an aim for independence then that person, despite huge individual potential contribution, cannot lead a campaign that will be dominated by 114,00-members of the independence party.

    322. Wuffing Dug says:

      Having a read through the thread again this morning.

      I see the resident agitator agitated till nearly midnight.

      Don’t bite!

      From an entirely personal perspective there are no views of any value that a unionist can offer me.

      I am finished with them, their continued rhetoric and posturing disgusts me.

      As a commodity, steam from pish holds more value than a unionist promise.

      Steam from my dugs pish at that….

    323. Ruby says:

      Hoss Mackintosh says

      Finally please remember – it is “Troll free Thursday”.

      Ruby replies

      Do the trolls know that? I’m not worried about trolls the ones who really wind me up are ‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’

      For those who don’t know what I mean by that I am referring to the hoards of posters who live in England and who invaded all Scottish online forums during the Indy Ref. John McIntrye OBE is an good example of what I mean. The Scotsman has been taken over by these Sensible Daves.

      I expect these Sensible Daves were spurred into action by the ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preachers’ telling them who much they were hated in Scotland and that Scots wanted to break up their country.

    324. Nana Smith says:

      @Macart

      More like putting on the agony

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW9KUeMaJRQ

      Showing my age now…hahaha

      I’ve got a few more folk reading Wings and one of them has shown Rev’s articles to people at her club. They had a quick Yes/No poll at the last meeting, previous no voters in the group are now Yes.

      So

    325. Chris Huang-Leaver says:

      Hi, all these numbers are interesting and all, but it important to understand that neither ‘national debt’ or ‘fiscal deficit’ mean anything like what you think they mean. In fact they are less important than employment, the environment and pretty much everything else the government deals with.

      Also, an independent Scotland would need its own currency ASAP to avoid ending up like Greece, Spain , Portugal (even Germany is f*cked by the Euro, just less than the others)

      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?cat=11

    326. Paula Rose says:

      Just having a wee peek afore ! head on out – thank you Nana Smith, that has put a spring in my step.

    327. Ruby says:

      Wuffing Dug says:
      29 October, 2015 at 9:16 am

      Having a read through the thread again this morning.

      I see the resident agitator agitated till nearly midnight.

      Don’t bite!

      Ruby replies

      Mornin’ Wuffing Dug!

      What good is a dug that disnae bite?

      😀 smile

    328. James Westland says:

      Wuffing Dug –

      “As a commodity, steam from pish holds more value than a unionist promise.

      Steam from my dugs pish at that….”

      LOL
      that made my day that did. Funny as anything. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    329. Chris Baxter says:

      English votes for English Laws existed long before now. Anyone trying to suggest otherwise is kidding themselves.

    330. Nana Smith says:

      @Paula Rose

      Mind your ankles with those heels darling!

    331. Macart says:

      Jeez, that’s a name I haven’t heard in a while. 😀

      Anyroads, all new readers welcome Nana. 🙂

    332. The Isolator says:

      Sorry folks but I think the slating of the official Yes campaign is a wee bitty unjust.

      The initial launch of Yes completely wrong footed the UKOK gang.It reeked of positivity and stood for We’re nothing to do wi the SNP and we’re only looking to end the political union.And it worked a treat especially at first allowing the guerrilla warfare to gain traction.

      The SNP are no mugs when it comes to political campaign’s and Alex Salmond in particular is as wiley as they come.Make no mistake we almost pulled this independence malarky off and the establishment know it.I’ve waited 40 years and I can wait for a few more!

    333. AndyH says:

      “You can say any old shit” a source told the Unionist Meejah.

    334. Ruby says:

      ‘You can’t slash benefits and remain popular

      Only £1 in every £50 of the welfare bill covers unemployment, so cuts will inevitably hit those ‘doing the right thing’
      When the Conservatives promised to make £12 billion of welfare cuts in their manifesto who did voters expect to be targeted? Did they think of a somewhat large man, stretched out on a sofa with fag in his mouth and pizza box at his side — watching Jeremy Kyle on a flatscreen TV? Perhaps they thought that the victims would be the kind of person who has fathered children by multiple women and has never undertaken a serious hunt for work?
      The reality is that only 2 per cent of welfare spending is directly on unemployment benefits.’ The Times

      That looks like an very interesting article. What the people thought was probably down to what they were told by the MSM.

      I’ll read the whole article when it appears on ProQuest.

    335. Glamaig says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      29 October, 2015 at 2:21 am

      I forgot embassies. Mostly in NO voting Edinburgh, but also Glasgow – and Aberdeen and Perth.

      Only 4% of Conservatives voted YES according to the other Ashcroft.

      Its odd that the typical Edinburgh conservative who loves checking up how much his house is worth, probably voted NO and stopped his city from becoming a real capital and his house value going through the roof.

      Not that I want house prices to go up mind, I want rent caps in place before independence to keep housing affordable.

    336. Clydebuilt says:

      What’s The National doing front paging competitors standing for the co convenes hip of the Hreen party ….under the banner “It’s On”……. Keep this up and The National will be off. Until we get Independence it has to be SNP 1 & 2

      Currently The Greens support Independence , will that be the case at the next Referendum?

      Call Kaye “this will be the end of manufacturing industry and does that matter”……

    337. Sinky says:

      Little reported by BBC Scotland,English votes for Scots laws.

      This week at Westminster despite only one MP from Scotland voting against Scottish emergency services exemption from VAT English votes decided the matter. btw Northern Ireland’s single Police Force doesn’t payt VAT.

      Also newly formed Human Rights Committee has no MP from Scotland but six unelected House of Lords peers.

      SNP nomination Senior Advocate Joanna Cherry MP was snubbed.

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13902569.SNP_hit_out_at__inexcusable__exclusion_from_human_rights_committee/

    338. Clydebuilt says:

      It’s all happening on BBC Scotland Call Kaye …… Talking down Scottish Industry……she’s laughing at a brave lady caller

    339. Ruby says:

      ‘The head of MI5 has issued a chilling warning that Britain faces its biggest ever terrorist threat.

      The Times interviews intelligence officers and data analysts revealing: · Britain is creating a new breed of superspy to work across all three intelligence services in the race to stay ahead of terrorists and hostile states’

      When I read the above I immediately thought of Tony Blair. We’ve got the biggest terroriest threat ever and being spied on by M15. and Tony Blair is strutting around the world making £billions and having his portrait painted wearing a poppy!

    340. Ken500 says:

      The SNP knew they could not win a Referendum on their own. The numbers did not add up. There was a need for an autonomous organisation to appeal to a cross section of Independence supporters, who vote for Unionist Parties. To set up such an Organisation within two years was a big ask, especially with the fine line of support. The SNP was the backbone but could not lead the campaign, in the interest of fairness. It had to attract universal support or over 50%.

      It was disappointing that those who lived through the Thatcher years could not give more support. The Unionists were given another chance for full fiscal autonomy, Federalism/Home Rule and have failed miserably. There will be another chance.

    341. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Oh, goody its our favourite Edinburgh caller. Scott Arthur on speed dial again.

    342. Glamaig says:

      caz-m @8:54

      Thanks for that.

      Hours per listener has plummeted, market share, and total hours listened are all down.

      They reported only the single stat which went up.

    343. Ruby says:

      I can’t be bothered talking about English Votes!

      In Scotland we have English votes for everything.

      English votes for UK Parliament
      English votes for UK Prime Minister
      English votes for Scottish Bill
      English votes for EU exit
      English votes for XFactor
      English votes for Great British Bake off!
      English votes for bloody everything

      That is what the the NO voters wanted!
      No voters are like Stepford Wives just doing what they are told by Mr England.

      Their favourite song is ‘Stand by your man! by Tammy Wynette

    344. Grouse Beater says:

      Alan: Scott Arthur on speed dial again.

      Maybe just speed.

    345. Tony Little says:

      @Ken500

      I absolutely agree that the SNP supporters on their own could not get us across the 50% barrier. I also understand the ‘principle’ that a positive campaign should (note the SHOULD) beat a negative campaign. All things being equal!

      But they weren’t equal. It wasn’t a campaign of positive vs negative; it was a campaign of Truth vs Lies

      You can’t beat a negative campaign based on lies and 99% of the Corporate Media pushing the same lies by trying to be universally positive. The message WAS positive – win back our country. So attacking the liars aggressively would NOT (IMHO) have been the wrong thing to do. The official YES campaign was far too passive and led by the pacifist-in-Chief.

      I never once heard Blair Jenkins attack the liars and the lies when he was given a chance to do so. Far too many missed opportunities to kill the lies dead which enabled the Corporate Media and the NO side to maintain the pressure.

      I hope that that lesson has been learned as we will not get IndyRef3 any time soon if we blow the next one.

      Please note that I have total admiration for the non-official campaign that did ALL the hard work knocking doors, delivering leaflets, organising tables and events. THEY got us to 45% despite the ‘official’ campaign.

      I realise I am coming over extremely angry. I AM angry at the missed opportunity and what this has meant for Scotland, and I will channel that into the next campaign, but don’t, for the love of G-d run IndyRef2 the same way!

    346. The Isolator says:

      Ken500 says:
      29 October, 2015 at 9:51 am
      “The SNP knew they could not win a Referendum on their own. The numbers did not add up”.

      Agree entirely with you Ken.The campaign was structured to allow for maximum spread across the population. A wholly fronted by the SNP campaign would have died early on due to lack of oxygen.The Blair Jenkins factor was all about ” I’ve never voted SNP in my life”.

      Some people on here are suggesting that he was less than inspiring.I think that was the reason behind his appointment. He was insipid and dare I say even attractive to some soft yessers.
      I reckon we are within touching distance but need SNP/SNP next May to ram it home.An SNP government returning to Holyrood with 60% plus of the vote will be the trigger for Indyref2.

    347. DerekM says:

      guys while it pains me to defend our Dave he is not a troll he is something much worse he is a liberal,and they just go on and on and on and when it comes to talking pish they have no equal.

      Anybody who has been on the old guardian before the neo-liberals hi-jacked it would see this,he is probably here because he gets shot down in flames by the right wing nutjobs who have taking over his natural stomping ground.

      organic beans Dave or i have a nice set of jesus sandals going cheap lol

    348. Macart says:

      @Clydebuilt

      ‘does that matter?’

      OFFS!

      Seriously? That’s Kaye’s question?

      What part of austerity UK is passing the BBC by? In fact what part of debt ridden, austerity UK is passing the media and metro set by altogether?

      The UKs economy, its macro economic model does not have the breadth or depth necessary to weather another 2008. It barely survived that crash and people will be feeling the brunt of austerity economics/ideology for decades as a result. A states economy built on a financial sector alone will not feed that state when the finance sector takes a hit.

      Q.E. fecking D. We’re living in the aftermath of such feckwitted management of an economy right now.

      Any successful model requires both breadth and balance. That it requires investment and support of a manufacturing sector is pretty much a must as is export of same. Perhaps Kaye should ask this question of some of our near neighbours in Europe who still have successful manufacturing industries, whether they’d be far happier doing without?

    349. Ruby says:

      Tony Little It could be the positive campaign has beaten the negative campaign but just not yet.

      The positive campaign did result in 56 MPs at Westminster.

      I do have serious doubts about the nicey nicey approach. Perhaps it does work but it just takes much much longer and makes us look pathetic.

      I would prefer if Nicola said all this talk about abusive cybernats is just the ‘UK Better Together Hate Preaching manipulators’ way of trying to silence opposition rather than saying ‘naughty cybernats must behalf’

    350. Jim says:

      Ruby says:

      That is what the the NO voters wanted!
      No voters are like Stepford Wives just doing what they are told by Mr England.
      _______
      According to Dogdale, SNP members are given a chip and told what to do.

      Apparently we are cult following, brainwashed, Nazi Cybernats and you will be assimilated by the high Priestess Nicola ‘Mugabe’ Stugeon.

      Dugdale has been watching too many episodes of Doctor Who but has accidently stumbled on the beginnings of a cracking movie plot.

    351. manandboy says:

      READY STEADY GO?

      I think we needed IndyRef14, not so much to GET Independence, but rather to learn what it takes to get Independence – and how to NOT get Independence.

      Surely next time.

    352. Grouse Beater says:

      Macart: We’re living in the aftermath of such feckwitted management of an economy right now.

      With another crash certain to come if we carry on feeding the wealthy and giving more power to the power elite.

    353. Ken500 says:

      Don’t get angry get even.

      Everything is going in the right direction. No matter how desperate the situation. If they were going backwards, it would be a different matter.

      The Tories are mucking up big time. Capitalise on that, not on any past ‘mistakes’. Starting a slanging match is not the way to progress. Get rid of the Unionist politicians and go on from there.

      The majority of the voters voted NO, but there is evidence it will change next time. How many people believed Scotland would be Independent in their lifetime? Another five years?

    354. Ken500 says:

      Genetically programmed? Chip The Labour/Unionists never learn.

    355. The Isolator says:

      @Tony Little,

      There will be no need to run Indyref2 campaign along the same track.We’re boarding several stations further up the line.

      The UKOk gang are now struggling to get any sort of foothold in scottish politics.

      Rewind to the beginning of the campaign and in my immediate friends and family I reckon 20% were yessers.At the vote that had risen to around 50% including my SNP /Alex Salmond hating partner.She has since converted to liking the SNP and loves Nicola.Now I know very few people was who would vote no.

      It’s a different ball game.The lies they tell has no impact on Yes voters.They know that but continue in the hope that fewer convert..they have nothing left.

    356. BBC Question Time from Edinburgh tonight,I wonder if Tokyo Kaye`s pet Unionist Troll,Scott Arfur, will be making an appearance.

    357. Ruby says:

      Jim

      I bet Dogdale wishes she could get her hands of some of those brainwashing chips.

      Her brainwashing chips seem to be malfunctioning.

      http://tinyurl.com/pdqry7n

    358. heedtracker says:

      Did sensibledave ever come back and tell us why Pig Fancier Cammers only announced EVEL the morn after the referendum yet?

      Come on sensibledave, give us your UKOK bullshit of a morn, it goes down well with my espresso macchiato treat of a teamGB thursday.

      How the red tory liars and hypocrites of The Guardian announced the defeat of Scottish democracy, huzzah

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/david-cameron-devolution-revolution-uk-scotland-vote

      Fun with Farage! At least he’s an honest britnat unionist and lets face it, they’re a rare breed sensibledave.

      “The fact that three party leaders made commitments on behalf of millions of UK voters means nothing. Why should I stand by a panicky commitment to Scotland made by the prime minister,” Farage said.

      Some of Cameron’s remarks made clear that the offer of further powers in Scotland was dependent on not only the next election but also a wider constitutional settlement including the exclusion of Scottish MPs from voting on many issues confined to England.

      Traditionally, Labour has polled better in Scotland and may struggle to win majorities on some key issues if the block of Scottish MPs is not allowed to vote. Labour has opposed the exclusion of Scottish MPs, but has accepted some issues being discussed in an English-only grand committee.”

      “Some of Camerons remarks” is usual sneaky/creepy Graun reportage, Vote NO we beg you, equal partners, lead dont follow, vote NOb orders, be part of it, go to work on an egg, all because the lady loves milktray, vorsprung durch technik, you’re British shut up and on it goes.

      Its a rule Britannia devolution revolution thing!

    359. Grouse Beater says:

      BBC Question Time from Edinburgh tonight

      There you go – we get the travelling version of democracy, expected to think we are on equal terms. The cost is quietly included in ‘all the millions spent on Scottish productions’, such as, Antiques Roads Show visits Stonybridge.

    360. Macart says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Nothing more certain Grouse.

    361. Valerie says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      29 October, 2015 at 10:27 am
      Macart: We’re living in the aftermath of such feckwitted management of an economy right now.

      With another crash certain to come if we carry on feeding the wealthy and giving more power to the power elite.

      —————

      I read an article on that very thing yesterday. It was Guardian, I think, and had graphs showing various measures lining up to look exactly the same as 2008.

      Cameron had the nerve to scream ‘growing economy’ at the dispatch box yesterday. Zimbabwe has a better growth rate than UK, and growth last month was 0.5.

      It’s heinous collaboration that the Corp media are saying sod all about this, but that’s not what they are there for.

    362. Anagach says:

      Chilcot says they expect to publish AFTER the elections next year.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34665607

    363. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Tony Little at 10.06

      Bullshit. The vast majority of the huge YES campaign was organised locally by the local SNP,staffed and set up by seasoned SNP activists and joined by many,many others (most of whom later joined the SNP). Virtually all the campaign material was designed, sourced or paid for initially by the SNP.

      The fact that we are here at all is entirely due to the SNP and its fifty year journey in very difficult waters.

      Anybody believe that Nicola Sturgeon should lead the next YES campaign?

    364. Brian Powell says:

      Anagach

      With Colin Powell’s revelation about Tony Blair being gung-ho for the war a full year before the votes, I for one will already have made up my mind. In the dock too will be Jack Straw and a parcel of others from the Labour Party.

    365. Ruby says:

      I would prefer if Nicola said all this talk about abusive cybernats is just the ‘UK Better Together Hate Preaching manipulators’ way of trying to silence opposition rather than saying ‘naughty cybernats must behalf’

      Tut! behave not behalf.

      Freudian slip or typo?

    366. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-34657197

      No news like BritScot news. One for Morag here. What does our BBC creep show mean today?

      “Dick vet in Edinburgh in dog blood donor session first”

    367. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      Put down your coffee,
      Move it well away from your keyboard.

      In today’s Scotsman Tom Peterkin an alleged journalist states that ‘Kezia Dugdale is a formidable TV performer’.

    368. Ruby says:

      Anagach says:
      29 October, 2015 at 10:51 am

      Chilcot says they expect to publish AFTER the elections next year.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34665607

      Ruby replies

      That is bloody outrageous! I’m going to have to go and do some meditation otherwise I might turn into an abusive cybernat!

      heedtracker says:
      29 October, 2015 at 10:42 am

      Ruby replies
      No I think you’ve chased him away. He doesn’t like you!

      Bye I’m off to meditate. OM!

    369. Macart says:

      @gus1940

      Bugger!

      I’ve just scalded the cat.

    370. Nana Smith says:

      @Brian Powell

      I wonder how long we will have to wait for any prosecutions to take place. Will I live long enough to see Blair and his warmongers in the dock?

      https://opendemocracy.net/uk/peter-oborne/we-dont-need-to-wait-for-chilcot-we-were-lied-to-heres-evidence

    371. Wuffing Dug says:

      @ Ruby & James

      Cheers

      I am a pug, so not much use at biting 🙂

      Sitting about, sleeping, mooching and having the odd mad turn a speciality 🙂

    372. Nana Smith says:

      @gus1940

      Well it seems you can fool some of the people all of the time, Peterkin being one of those easily fooled.

      More likely he is trying to fool the public.

    373. Clydebuilt says:

      MacArthur @10.20…… Yup she said it……. Also heard her laughing at a female caller bravely standing up for our industry….. (Our Right to have industry) this caller was in an exchange with an expert of Kayes choosing…… Kaye wasn’t part of this exchange … As admitted by the (gutsy) caller she was no expert on this subject didn’t stop Kaye sniggering at her.

    374. heedtracker says:

      I think its ohm Ruby

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J11VChbAboA

      No you’re right it’s om.

      Also,

      BBC says Sturgeon is doing the WRONG thing what they says she should be doing. So vote BBC, finance Minister Douglas Fraser, for that grand ol BBC Scotland fiscal brilliance.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34647421

      BBC Scotland’s business and economy editor Douglas Fraser has heard from one veteran of these task forces who described them as “largely useless”.

      If only BBC Scotland could stand for election. Doug’ll fix it, for you and you and you and you Tata.

    375. Clydebuilt says:

      Macart ……. That last post was for you………spell checker turned your name into MacArthur Sorry

      Not convinced Robin Macalpine should be the leader…… Yet that is. Why doesn’t he join in with the main force of the SNP streangthening the party (the resistance) instead of fragmenting the forces.
      The cause is to important for “stars” to be running their own parties. Get behind the SNP. Fragmentation is for after Indy.

    376. Les Wilson says:

      Everywhere I look these days,there is agony and it is rising. DWP with all their shenanigans, poverty. Working poverty,child poverty,Government injustices everywhere.

      The reason behind all this is glaring, the UK is an economic
      disaster. Mismanagement, everywhere in every sector of our society, driven to attempt to save money, from our poorest to pay for the life styles and for the failings of bankers and elites.Corruption everywhere.

      What a bloody country this is proving to be, it is approaching a time when revolution could rise it’s head in the current UK arrangement. I do not mean just Scotland but across the UK, England in particular. They have no way out, but social chaos.

      Scotland does have a way out, we can choose a better way, we can choose to run things for ourselves, for our families and for the building of a better Independent country.
      One where we take our own responsibilities and do things different. We really need to do it and fast, or we will be dragged down the abyss with them.

    377. Ruby says:

      Ruby says:
      29 October, 2015 at 11:04 am

      Anagach says:
      29 October, 2015 at 10:51 am

      Chilcot says they expect to publish AFTER the elections next year.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34665607

      Ruby replies

      That is bloody outrageous! I’m going to have to go and do some meditation otherwise I might turn into an abusive cybernat!

      heedtracker says:
      29 October, 2015 at 10:42 am

      Did sensibledave ever come back

      Ruby replies
      No I think you’ve chased him away. He doesn’t like you!

      Bye I’m off to meditate. OM!

      In my rush to go and meditate I missed a very important part of my post

      Did sensibledave ever come back?

      gus1940 says: Put down your coffee,

      I think Peterkin phoned into the Jeremy Vine show using the pseudonym Judy Martin from Aberdeenshire

      FF to 52:38
      http://tinyurl.com/noo7ckr

    378. Will Podmore says:

      Clootie writes, “We want to be Independent in order that we can be different. A nation for the many instead of the few.”
      But the SNP is committing Scotland – unconditionally – to membership of an unreformed EU just as Blair did. Committing us to the EU and saying you’re against ‘austerity’ is like committing us to NATO and saying you’re against wars – which the SNP does too!
      The SNP says it is against wars but wants us to stay in NATO which wages wars. It’s against austerity but wants us to stay in the EU which enforces austerity. It’s against TTIP but wants us to stay in the EU which wants to force TTIP on us all.
      EU rules on state aid for industry prevent the government giving financial support for the Redcar steel plant, to prevent its closure, even if the government wanted to. This is yet another example of EU membership leading to loss of jobs for British workers and further loss of manufacturing industry.

    379. Fred says:

      Nana, a great job as ever!

      Wish folk would shut up aboot this half-wit of a troll and get on with what we’re on here for!

    380. Macart says:

      @Clydebuilt

      RE: Campaign leadership

      It all depends on how indyref2 comes about. That is to say what triggers a surge in support at any given time? THAT will determine the leadership choice for the pro independence campaign.

      For instance I could see a scenario where it may be party driven if there is a clear constitutional breach of the current settlement and treaty and the SNP government are obliged to go to the people to make a decision. It would then of necessity be led by the FM. On the other hand if the change is more gradual and the SG gain a mandate as before in answer to detrimental changes in economic circumstance, the make up of any YES campaign would be pretty much as before perhaps with a newer, more combative leadership.

      As to who that may be? Well, there’s no end of bodies to choose from, but most importantly whoever is chosen for the role has to have broad appeal across societal spectrum. They’re hardly likely to be of a rightward persuasion to be sure, but they must be able to talk to the business community and be listened to without fear. Equally their social justice CV has to be up to scratch to carry any credibility with the more socialist elements of the YES vote.

      God, I wish Margo were still with us right now. That’s a lady that knew how to cross societal borders with style.

    381. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Clydebuilt at 11.29

      Exactly.

    382. Nana Smith says:

      @Fred

      Hello Fred, I had to walk away for a few days last week as the threads were constantly being derailed by the usual suspects.

      Their primary aim is to stop us reading wings and the arguing back and fore is part of that.

      Becomes frustrating and boring after a while.

    383. Tony Little says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Re: Tony Little at 10.06

      You seem to have misunderstood my comment (or perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been). I have no criticism whatsoever about SNP followers, supporters, and activists. I am a member of the SNP as well.

      My point was that the SNP as a party commanded less than 25% support of the total electorate at the 2011 elections in Scotland. Obviously Independence needed far more than JUST the SNP support. That was the intention of my post.

      I am highly appreciative of everyone who worked their socks off in all the numerous local campaigns that raised the INDY vote to 45% on the day.

      My over-riding point is that the official campaign added little to this success story. In many ways it might actually have been a drag on these local success stories. I don’t want that repeating, that’s all.

      Sorry if you think I was critical of the SNP. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    384. Grouse Beater says:

      “The things I do for England” – 007 and his England only capers: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY

    385. cirsium says:

      “the threads were constantly being derailed by the usual suspects.

      Their primary aim is to stop us reading wings and the arguing back and fore is part of that.

      Becomes frustrating and boring after a while.”

      So true, Nana. Thanks for the links.

      Great posts by the Rev and thoughtful and funny input from regular Wingers. It is good to have Wings community back.

    386. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Will Podmore

      Not sure why you aren’t getting this Will, whether Scotland should or shouldn’t be independent is a constitutional question. It’s not about economics, or treaties, everyone knows Scotland could prosper as an independent country, even you.

      Once Scotland becomes independent WE decide what type of country we want. Whether we stay in NATO, whether we stay in an unreformed EU etc. Independence is a destinanation, the SNP the only vessel to get us there, at this time.

      Give David Cameron his due though, he’s in the process of building a ship that will accommodate many migrants who were too feert to jump on the good ship Salmond last year.

    387. sensibledave says:

      … not sure what to do today.

      One group want me to stay away – another group is calling me out because I’ve not shared my wisdom!

      In order to resolve this matter, we need a completely logical, reasonable and unbiased arbiter to make the decision for you all. I therefore appoint Heedy and, today, I will abide by his judgement.

    388. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: Committing us to the EU and saying you’re against ‘austerity’ is like committing us to NATO and saying you’re against wars – which the SNP does too!

      You’re at it again, posting falsehoods.

      The SNP is not committed to the EU or NATO.

      In the event of independence what has been approved (by its membership) is negotiate with both entities in order to bring back to the Parliament conditions of association for approval, emendation, or rejection.

      So stop the louche propaganda.

    389. Andrew McLean says:

      Tony Little says:

      I get your point, but when we previously had Labour and the Liberals arraigned against us we a least have a softening of that position, in words anyway. So moving forwards, this is about consensus building, the no campaign have fired their guns, shown their hand.

      Nextime the tables have to be turned we have to reach out to the undecided and the weak no’s, turn them to yes, all we need is a 5% swing! I am sure the tories will make it easier for us, but we need to get our country back before they do a Thatcher on us.

      Regarding those who post on here who don’t share our views, always remember there are many more who may share that sentiment or concern, the Rev puts the story straight, insulting and trolling is best left to the opposition, they are so much better at it than us.

    390. Christine Kabashi says:

      These calculations dont even take into account:

      The 6,000 miles of sea containing the 7 oil rigs that Westminster stole from Scotland and all the tax revenues that would have accrued to us since 1996.

      Westminsters obfuscation of our tax revenues by allowing corporations and businesses to claim their head office as the place tax is accrued to. Usually in England.

      Your own article The Great Gingerbread Robbery enlightened me about this.

      Makes me want to weep.

    391. heedtracker says:

      I therefore appoint Heedy and, today, I will abide by his judgement.

      I refer my honorable? friend to the owner of Wings over Scotland.

      Anyway sensible you worry too much and you work too hard.

      If all goes to UKOK plan sensible, BBC Scotland etc will remove SNP from Scots.gov next May, Sturgeon and co might survive but they’ll be so toxic they wont get near office again, SLabour First Minister Dugdale will be merciful with her robotic SNP voters, at first, but above all else, Scottish independence will be finnished for at least another generation, IS the cunning BBC plan.

      But can the assorted red and blue place men, liars and creeps in Scottish newsrooms pull it off sensible?

    392. heedtracker says:

      Here you go sensible, the all new BBC Scotland saviour of UKOK, rebellious Scots robots to crush.

      You want to see the kinds of money these BBC chancers pay themselves too sensible, holy fcuk the greed is BBC breathtaking.

      http://newsnet.scot/?p=115874

    393. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      An idea I was thinking, if say STV could be got to be interested, is not a debate between the two sides, but both sides get a half-hour slot to have a one-sided panel discussion.

      So you’d get a mixture of say 6 YES people giving their vision for an Independent Scotland, economy, business, tourism, social, a positive vision of what Scotland could be like and what it can achieve. No contra view, no stupid attacking twisted questions from an interviewer.

      Then you’d get the Project Fear lot, with Darling being angry, McDougall with wild anti-YES stuff, Danny Alexander with his black holes and £trillion costs to set up a new Scotland, Tomkins with his North Britain. Doom, gloom, fear, dust bowls of depression, bankrupt, jobless, 100% interest rates, Greece, North Korea.

      It’d be a hoot.

    394. Tony Little says:

      @Andrew McLean

      Totally agree that we start from a different place, but I was posting ‘historically’ 🙂 This seems to be a sensitive issue for many people, understandably!

      Yes we have a ‘softening’ position from Scottish Labour and LD as many of their supporters are already convinced by the Independence argument. This should enable the next campaign to be rather more forceful in rebutting the spin, distortions and outright lies we endured last time. However, the Corporate Media and BBC are already making their position clear. In summary SNP Baaaaaad!

      It is a moot point as to whether they can continue in this vein, or (as I think more likely) it will get worse!

      The fight for IndyRef2 has just begun

    395. Jamie Arriere says:

      As a matter of interest, has anybody responded or is responding to the BBC Trust consultation for the charter renewal next year, even if it’s to tell them to put the whole fucking edifice in the bin, and give us a standalone Scottish service.

      Here’s a link which is only open for the next week

      https://consultations.external.bbc.co.uk/bbc/future-ideas/

      I would have thought a mass response to this is called for, given our complete disrespect for the entity

    396. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Now that’s an idea with legs. The one on one debates are old theatre and far too centred on personal point scoring, but if people really want to see the dividing line between independence and status quo then stand alone programmes with both sides putting their case forward would be the way to travel.

      People could then have a right good think and discussion in between programmes chewing over what they’d heard and seen.

      Best of all, NO need for some placebod with a mike directing leading questions. Just two groups putting their case forward on a national broadcast separately.

      I like it. 🙂

    397. Macart says:

      Mmmmm, further on that idea.

      To avoid spin meisters preparing replies to previous programmes subject matter, each would have to be filmed separately and simultaneously as it were. That way neither would have the benefit of having prior knowledge of the others subject matter before airing.

      It really is a rather good idea. The problem, as ever, would be finding a broadcaster with the cajones to take it on and air it on prime time telly. A broadcaster willing to keep the editing honest at that.

      I reckon I’d stand more chance of my hairline returning after a twenty year absence. 😉

    398. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Strangely enough I was thinking the same, both “presentations” would have to be in the can so the other side couldn’t see them.

      Another possibility is to limit it to 15 minutes each side, with the second side locked in a studio, strictly no contact with the outside world so they couldn’t see the first one.

      Then after that, the audience votes, having voted before, to see what difference it makes.

    399. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      So who goes first? Well, the presenter would ask both separately, and if they agreed no problem, otherwise they toss the coin. I’m thinking YES would logically and probably want to, go first, followed by the “rebuttal” and the dreadful negative whine and cringe of the NO side. What fun we had!

    400. Will Podmore says:

      Grouse Beater claims that the SNP is not committed to the EU or to NATO, on the grounds that an independent Scotland could choose whether or not to be in either. The SNP’s record shows that it is committed to both.
      Since 1988, the SNP has backed the policy of ‘independence in Europe’ (which is like backing a policy of ‘peace in war’). That has been a policy pledge for 27 years now.
      Alex Salmond has said that an independent Scotland would be an ‘enthusiastic, engaged and committed’ member of the EU.
      Nicola Sturgeon said that TTIP was ‘a reminder of the massive opportunities that European Union membership brings’. (Like the one million lost jobs TTIP would cost, as the European Commission, very discreetly, admitted?)
      The SNP kept voting with the Tories to save the 1991 Maastricht Treaty, which bound us yet more into the EU.
      In 1995 Sturgeon proclaimed, “Europe is our flagship policy.” (Odd, some might have thought Scottish independence was!)
      In 2000 the SNP joined the doomed ‘Britain in Europe’ campaign which wanted us to scrap the pound and join the euro.
      The SNP rightly denounced Labour’s support for NATO’s illegal war on Iraq, but forgets that it backed NATO’s (and the Tories’) illegal war on Libya. When you are in NATO, you have to end up backing NATO’s wars.

    401. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: “The SNP’s record shows that it is committed to both.”

      Good try, dear closed mind mired in colonialism. But just a lot of waffle.

      Here’s another Englishman with a problem: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2iv

    402. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Tony Little at 12.30

      Cheers. Thanks

    403. nodrog says:

      Such a shame that a few long winded individuals diminshed the impact of a brilliant piece of journalism.

    404. Fred says:

      @ Nana, the “Troll Show” is no different from junk phone calls. If only there was an electric shock button!

    405. Will Podmore says:

      Well Grouse Beater, I provided some evidence for my views. You responded with a personal attack – I’m disappointed in you.
      If a lawyer in any court responded with a personal attack, this would rather prove who won the case.

    406. James Hamilton says:

      Aside from the economics, what I find really interesting about these debates is how either side sounds exactly like the other. Both claim to be in the right (naturally), both claim that the other side is using cherry-picked data, and both claim that the other side is desperately trying to cover up its own inaccuracies and lies.

    407. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “both claim that the other side is using cherry-picked data”

      The difference, of course, is that we’re citing UNIONIST analysis of the data, with links to the complete study, not just pulling out bits we like. And it’s analysis by people vastly more respected in the field than some amateur blogger.

    408. Cadogan Enright says:

      All- Why do you bother with Trolls?

      It’s not even good practice for a genuine person seeking the truth

      If they are too think to understand 10% drop in funding , be kind to them and SPEAK SLOWLY

      If they won’t understand, why bother ?

    409. Will Podmore says:

      This is a public forum, not a secret cabal. So someone contributes who doesn’t agree with you on your main interest. So you abuse him or her as a ‘troll’ which is, I’m sure we agree, not a term of respect.
      In a democracy, we debate those with whom we disagree. To resort at once to abuse is a sign of a certain lack of respect for the civilities of debate.



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