The winners
Posted on
November 14, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The SNP’s new leader and First Minister-elect, and her deputy.
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The sensible choice as it allows Nicola to appoint her own deputy in Holyrood
All three contenders were worthy. I’m disappointed my pick Angela got such a low share of the vote, but I’m still genuinely pleased Stewart won, and would’ve been happy if Keith won too. We’re lucky to have such a great collection of people in the SNP.
They’ll do. 🙂
Westminster may not be aware of it yet, but they are going to be in bother again soon. Hopefully in both parliaments. 😉
I think its an advantage to have separate Depute Leader and DFM. Two different roles.
I chose Angela Constance, partly out of cynicism of the British Establishment. Alex will be going back to Westminster. He’s not done yet. The British media will no doubt try to play up a fictional rivalry between Alex and deputy leader Stewart Hosie over who really controls the SNPs Westminster MPs. Divide and conquer is their game.
Good luck to Stewart though, he definitely deserves the deputy leadership. It’s in a good pair of hands.
I ended up not voting as I couldn’t genuinely choose between the two. Hosie more fiery in debate and fights the corner well. Brown a nice man, really, but comes across competent. Constance haven’t seen enough of but don’t think she was ready.
Good luck to them both.
Onward and upwards, continuing Alex’s legacy of a fairer Scotland, delivered with the politics of integrity.
They will make a good team, Hosie takes no nonsense just as Nicola, it’s gonna be fun!
Oh, by the way, the North Sea keeps giving.
http://www.energy-pedia.com/news/united-kingdom/new-161561?editionid=101515
Fantastic news http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/snp-bid-to-fast-track-new-blood-for-election-battle.25871696
The first past the post system suits cross-party coalitions and single issue campaigns.
I would have voted for Stewart Hosie if I could. Joined the SNP weeks ago but my application has not been processed yet. Good luck to both of them, they make a formidable team!
Looking good. Alex’s speech will be a cracker too so will catch up later I hope, media willing!
My choice! The futures bright, the future is Scottish.
Slightly O/T…but need to keep the info out there
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Good outcome. Deputy Leader with an enhanced group in W/M, and a separate DFM at H.
Enjoying the livestream from the conference hall; building for the big man’s last address as leader.
Good luck to both!
Labour supporters will be looking on and quietly thinking:
“Why don’t we have politicians like that?”
A good outcome. I saw Stewart speaking in a debate against George Robertson (the Abertay University one last year?), who was demolished. Probably not that difficult a job against that madeira-soaked buffoon, but Stewart came across extremely well and swung the vote.
Very strong leadership team and there is considerable depth there as well with all the others, particularly the MPs (to be joined soon by AS I hope), who have to put up with such shit and disrespect day after day at WM.
Also very interesting indeed that non-party members will be able to stand. Acknowledges the wide YES campaign base and the strong talent everywhere that may not want to join a party but will still want to seek office to advance the independence fight.
New attempt to scare: growth of SNP membership threatened building warships on Clyde!
Most interesting thing about that is having it confirmed warships can be built abroad.
Fantastic, glad the one I voted for got DFM, but they all sounded good 🙂
Good luck to the pair of them and Scotland!!!
Congratulations!
Unfortunately I rejoined the party too late to be able to vote. Was torn between Stewart Hosie and Keith Brown. More than happy to see Stewart as deputy and the inspiring Nicola Sturgeon as leader.
Good luck to them both, they’ll need it as Labour and their MSM friends unleash the personal attacks on them, but they’ll overcome it.
I see there is also a move to allow non-party members to stand as SNP candidates.
As well as encouraging popular contributors to stand (such as Jeanne Freeman) this would presumably allow SNP constituency groups to openly lend support and resourses to a Green or SSP candidate if it were deemed to be a more probable way of winning the seat for YES.
This could prove to be a very shrewd move.
Congratulations to Stewart – and to Nicola.
The board is now set up nicely for the political chess game 2015/16/17 when only one outcome will do for Scotland –
Checkmate!
My choices to lead us forward, but do they (and us) really know the task that lies ahead to achieve independence?
I would say one major fault in the YES movement was to shy away from obvious weaknesses, namely and exactly just what happened via black arts and ferocious propaganda attacks not distinguishable from war.
Lies, misinformation and VOWS.
The crazy deployment of the Orange Order giving it a status which will now be extremely difficult to control.
Foreign leader interference and mis-use of UK embassy and consul staff to campaign against Scottish interests.
Big business and disgraceful banks threatening voters in every possible way.
Finally, and it all topped off by the coalition of every single political UK party against us.
Knowing what’s ahead is a huge advantage and it would be totally absurd to ignore what we see now as a costly hard won experience, so what’s needed is a pragmatic and driven cynicism – no more lying over to get our bellies tickled.
What a contrast in talent availability to the Labour Branch Office gene pool!
I voted for Keith Brown but no outcome would have troubled me.
I look forward to both FMQ and PMQ next year 😛
Exactly as I thought, we have Stewart at Westminster and we can have a deputy First Minister at Holyrood. I would actually like to see Angela in there, we need the women to have a chance to shine and I know Angela will work her socks off.
Meant to add, we would be in danger if Labour had talent, but like all the shows on the telly, nae chance
…should be not INdistinguishable…of course
Wow great words there from Mhari Black at the SNP conference, only 20 years old, but displaying ability well beyond her years, definately future leadership material, the strength and depth of talent in the party is truly astonishing
Yes to Nicola S.
Yes to S Hosie.
Yes to YES.
YES to a party which is able to think and act for Scotland.
I wish them both the best of luck.
Major Bloodnok says
“A good outcome. I saw Stewart speaking in a debate against George Robertson (the Abertay University one last year?), who was demolished. Probably not that difficult a job against that madeira-soaked buffoon, but Stewart came across extremely well and swung the vote.”
It was same Debate that swung it for me. it was no contest,
watching that idiot getting filleted by Stewart Hosie was the (in my veiw) THE defining moment in the entire run up to the referendum and had it been aired on tv it would indeed have shown the vacuous nature of better together.
I voted Constance, for the wider YES Movement as she seemed more attuned to what it needs, though Hosie was a good second for that, and Brown as clear DFM.
I hop they don’t waste Constance, but appoint her to some new official YES movement role, as I think she’d bring it not just enthusiasm, but undestanding of why, exactly, the SNP got just short of 60,000 new members to make it over 85,000 in total. Hint: it’s not mostly about the SNP!
I voted fior Hosie, on the basis of the Abertay demolition of Lard Nuk’em Robertson of Islay Distilleries.
I thought that Keith Brown would have been an equally good choice.
I know less about Angela Constance but await what I fully expect be a totally competent politician.
Spoiled for choices the SNP is, and I hope Keith Brown gets the Deputy FM position.
Good one today.
@Major Bloodnok @ John King –
That’ll be the same debate where Robertson claimed that Scotland has no culture, right?
If that balloon thinks such offensive ignorance will ever be forgotten, he’s onto plums.
I’d say it’s reasonably clear Brown will be the DFM by appointment by Sturgeon, so it’s lucky Hosie won as I forgot to put him as 2 to Constance on the STV thing.
Congratulations to both. Of course the real winners are Scotland and its people.
membership just arrived for the snp great wee window sticker too it will be put where the onions will see it
great bloody days ahead oh and you can subscribe to a magazine too
roll on next week for the big meetup in the sse i think its next week
oops sorry o.t
Imagine Dugdale standing in for Murphy at FMQs; what an absolute gift for Sturgeon and Hosie. That’s something which should give Labour pause, but, of course, it won’t.
FT front page article on SNP and Westminster
https://archive.today/9aIMg
Think these two were everyones fav.
Angela C needs a few more years but must admit i am impressed with her.
Keith has a big future and may have won but Stewart was too big a hurdle for him.
Stewart has the experience and comes over very well. Always has a smile on his face. Such a change from the dour unionists.
SNP are looking good. Independence is the aim but for now , ease the burdens WM will put us under with their austerity packages.
SSP/Greens have a very strong team too.
Labour are a shambles, tories and Libems – non entities.
All we need is Murphy to win the labour job and all our xmas’s are rolled into one.
2015 will be another big year in Scotland. I am so happy today. My referendum blues are gone and a new campaign is starting. 🙂
We may have lost the battle Sept 18th but we damaged our enemy so badly we will win the war.
Congratulations to Stewart and Nicola. All candidates were impressive at the hustings. Glad that the DL and DFM roles have been separated and please that there will be a formidable 5 person team to lead the way – Nicola Sturgeon, Andrew Hosie, Angus Robertson, Alex Salmond (hopefully returning to Westminster) and whoever is appointed by Nicola to be the deputy 1st minister. Would be good if there was a bit of a gender balance though.
1.5 million Yes voters have not yet joined an Independence party.
The other 90,000 are waiting.
Join us today.
http://www.snp.org/get-involved
http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/join-us/
http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/
Ian Brotherhood, @12.41
None other Ian.
The empty and facile nature of that clowns comments managed to swing a no (before the debate) from about 60% to 30% after the debate.
To be fair one could have stood a pineapple on the podium in opposition and it would have beaten Robertson but the powerful debating skills of Hosie saw a fool like Robertson shown up for the soulless drivel merchant that he was/is.
I knew both of them over 20 years ago from student politics.
Nicola Sturgeon ain’t no Alex Salmond and will not drive the independence movement forward – she could hardly mention the word when I knew her. As for Stewart Hosie, he’s more of a fundamental nationalist, but speaking from personal experience again, his judgement is highly questionable.
I’m not trying to rain on parades here, but a left-wing alternative and a green alternative is needed to counter-balance the SNP. Only by uniting the whole country can be gain liberation. Sturgeon and Hosie are not unifying forces, not even within the SNP itself.
I`m very happy that we now have Nicola Sturgeon and Stewart Hosie leading the new Scottish vision.
The SNP are blessed with a wealth of talent, and now with a second wind, I expect great things for them, for us and for Scotland.
Don`t get me wrong, I am still heartbroken after the vote, but the tears have stopped.
Let`s just get this done.
What’s interesting is that I’m detecting a bit of a change in the MSM coverage of both the SNP and Independence.
I suspect that next time there’ll be tacit support in unexpected places.
Thinking about it more, I think it could end up being a much better role. Angela’s greatest strength was exactly that understanding of the grassroots. Talking to her, and seeing her at meetings, she seemed a real “Braveheart” (i.e. someone NewLabour/Tories/LibDems would decry as a fanatic obsessed with independence). Perhaps she’d have a lot more freedom & power in a different role. Definitely don’t think she’ll be wasted, or Keith either.
Congratulations, to both……..game on.
Interesting that the SNP is doing so well WITHOUT the American spin doctors constantly brought in by Labour and Cons? Maybe they could save themselves a few bob by actually putting forward policies that people want to here? Instead of spending millions on polishing their fake PR images — which people see through anyway?
All three candidates were good, my preference was maybe Angela Constance, because I have great respect for the great YES women and she is one of them. Angela’s time will come.
Braw! Just the outcome I had hoped for.
All we need now is Alex to announce he’s standing for WM and we will have the best of both worlds.
With that lineup leading the SNP I have hope it won’t be long until our dreams are realised.
Pity there only seems to be TWO HOURS of coverage of the conference on our state propaganda channel. I hope Live Indy are going to be livestreaming some of it as I’ll be in the former british colony of America next week. I’ll be asking around to see when they’ll be re-applying for rule from Westminster. Better together and a’ that.
Baron Robertson like Lord Smith of Kelvin have held high office at the Ultra Pro Unionist company `Weir Group`non-executive Director and Chairman.
The` Weir Group` that was fined £3million for breaching UN sanctions on Iraq by doing business with Saddam Hussein’s regime.
good piece in the Scottish Statesman regarding the change of pace since the Referendum.
http://scottishstatesman.com/comment-those-with-least-now-dictate-the-pace-of-change-in-scotland/
It’s a Tory boy world though, with CIF Tory boy joy and happiness
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11230833/Nicola-Sturgeon-puts-second-referendum-at-top-of-agenda.html#disqus_thread
Rancid old Guardian had Sturgeon in Swatikas this week apparently but such is teamGB these days. Here in England, actual left voters that I know are still perplexed that Scotland voted to not escape Tory boy world but it’s not a widely reported opinion in teamGB propaganda outfits like the torygraph or Graun or BBC etc
Congrats to Stewart Hosie. I think he will be just great, sharp as a tack when need be.
Article on devolution…
http://www.theinformationdaily.com/2014/11/14/devolution-chaos-will-anyone-know-what-they-are-voting-for-on-may-7th
Congrats to Nicola and Stewart.
Nicola as FM with an MSP as Deputy. Alex Salmond back at Westminster, via the Gordon Constituency. Hosie still Deputy Leader but the masses of SNP Mp’s at Westminster elect Salmond as leader of the UK parliamentary group.
Eh’m slaverin’ at the thought of PMQs after 7th May.
@Capella says: 14 November, 2014 at 11:22 am:
“Looking good. Alex’s speech will be a cracker too so will catch up later I hope, media willing!”.
The TV Parliament Channel, (131), is showing the SNP Conference. So if the Computer lets you down there’s always the TV.
@Luigi says: 14 November, 2014 at 11:42 am:
“Labour supporters will be looking on and quietly thinking:
“Why don’t we have politicians like that?”
Well, Luigi, somehow I think the all know the answer to that question.
Conference on utube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uprczxvbI
Good result, we live in interesting times.
What have Labour got to offer the Scottish people?
@MajorBloodnok says: 14 November, 2014 at 11:45 am:
“I saw Stewart speaking in a debate against George Robertson (the Abertay University one last year?), who was demolished.”
That was Stewart at his best, Major, but it was the typical quiet, calm, thinking method displayed by Stewart in that debate that was so impressive. We are very lucky to have such a wealth of such brilliant talent to choose from.
Two interesting facts:
1) The race was relatively close, with no winner in the first round despite only three candidates, and the third placed candidate getting more than half the vote of the first placed candidate
2) Anegla Constance’s vote divided pretty evenly between Hosie and Brown, which suggests not much factionalism (if any) in the SNP
I voted for Keith Brown. I did so because at the time I believed that both Leader and Deputy leader should be in the same parliament, old fashioned and out dated thinking I know but hey that’s me all over as many on here already know! 😛
I did consider voting for Angela Constance but decided that an all female team of Leader and Deputy leader was not the right way forward, sorry Angela. 😉
In the lead up to voting for Keith I have to admit that like many others on here and elsewhere I was really torn between voting for Stewart or Keith, despite what I have just said above. 😀
We now have the team in place. I think it is only right that we all now authorise the BLUE Tories, RED Tories,YELLOW Tories and PURPLE Tories to start quaking in their boots at the thought of what they are about to start receiving now and almost more importantly what they WILL receive from Scotland in May 2015. 😛
“i know you want change” says slab, WRONG, “WE ARE THE CHANGE”, goodbye.
to new beginnings folks, and an end to the same old same old crap that unionist/thatcherite/imperialist politics has dished up for over half my lifetime.
to common weal and social justice.
no one poor, no one rich.
Be afraid Westminster, be very afraid. It is along way from over.
Stewart Hosie, will make a great deputy leader with Nicola.
Remember, The First Minister’s Speech (still Alex), is this afternoon at 3pm.
This is a great time for the independence movement. 🙂
Excellent news! What a formidable team we have and the change in rules to fast track candidates bodes well for next year.
Looking forward to hearing the FM’s speech, it will be a belter!
SNP and Scotland in great hands. I voted for Stewart because of his wm role but could have easily voted for Keith. Angela building herself up for big role in the future.
I’m delighted at the strength and direction of the SNP at the moment. There is a big fight ahead but think NS and SH will lead wisely and effectively.
We need a lot of big hitters to stand up to WM and we now have that in spades. YES!
well folks,
I have been debating with myself since the 19th of September on whether to join the greens or the SNP..
The fact is like a lot of people I will never forgive the SLAB for what they did to stop progressive politics in Scotland.
so today i took the plunge better late than never as they say, and joined the SNP with Nicola and Stewart leading us we can go forward not back and i can only see that as a good thing.
New article from Richie Venton, SSP –
http://richieventon.blogspot.co.uk/
You know, I’ve noticed over the past few days, many commentators on TV saying, in reference to the referendum, things like the winners are behaving like losers, and the losers are behaving like winners. The reason is quite simple, the unionists by voting NO didn’t achieve a damn thing.
No voters will have woken up on the 19th September and suddenly realised that by voting NO, they got nothing.
It is hard to celebrate when you win, only to find out that in reality, you won nothing at all.
Apparently the state broadcaster is going to cover Alex Salmond’s speech from the conference at 15:00 on bbc news 24.
Live Indy is also livestreaming from around the conference now:
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/3515715?origin=stream_live&mixpanel_id=1424dccc6d46c-03bbf05714b5f78-7e6a1335-13c680-1424dccc6d691&acc_id=6928289&medium=email
Oh looks peeps, a video presentation in the lead up to Alex Salmond giving his final speech as First Minister. Oh before you go dashing over to BBC parliament channel to watch it forget it. BBC are NOT showing it NOR are they allowing the audio to be heard. What you WILL see is footage of Derek Mackay and Nicola Sturgeon WATCHING the video.
BBC doing what it does best BIASED broadcasting!
SNP conferance loss of sound during the Alex Salmond vidio Fuckin Bbc
Daibach – Stewart isn’t DFM. He’s Depute Leader of the SNP. Nicola hasn’t appointed a DFM yet.
O/T sort of…does anyone know if Alex’s speech can be viewed live? If so…where I can watch or listen to it?
Oops – my bad – Alex in on the bbc parliament channel and as Ronnie says they’ve managed to lose the sound – how fucking typical of our wonderful state propaganda broadcaster
Watch on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uprczxvbI
An excellent result – I think the split of Leader at Holyrood and Deputy Leader at Westminster will work very well in the run up to the 2015 elections.
O/T Slightly…
But still getting removed / blocked from the Herald for comments like this.
“Neither do most of the BTL commentators on here. Jon. They are all still in denial.
Scotland was ‘browbeaten’ into submission by Westminster.
Better Together and Westminster parties told lies about things that directly affected the livelihoods of the people in Scotland.
Pensions
NHS
Currency
Food Prices
Capital Flight
Mortgage rates
Energy prices
House prices
Education
Currency
… and so it went on…
But the truth is that there is massive disparity between Scotland and the South. (Health and wealth) This is a situation that will not be tolerated for much longer.
Watch the Red Tories get a bloody nose… and the MSM who discarded journalism in favour of state supporting propaganda.
Brìgh gach cluiche gu dheireadh.”
Maybe it was the Gaelic?
@Jon legorburu, Ayr
If you are out there. The above comment was for you.
@Ronnie Anderson
Coincidence? Or enemy action?
Nana Smith
thanks for posting the link, it’s bringing a lump to my throat.
@ Jackie G
“so today i took the plunge better late than never as they say, and joined the SNP with Nicola and Stewart leading us we can go forward not back and i can only see that as a good thing.”
Well done.
@Fred Blogger
“i know you want change” says slab, WRONG, “WE ARE THE CHANGE”, goodbye.”
Brilliant
@RL
Winners and losers, heh.
You read through the forums, look at people still discussing politics at home, in the workplace and in the street. You see the growth of party memberships and you know who won. The electorate did. We got our mojo back and the establishment got the fright of its life.
They’re not off the hook yet either. They can’t deliver on their pledges, they can’t back up their claims. Indeed their campaign claims are falling apart on a day to day basis and now the public are watching and listening.
That’s the thing about making a pledge to an entire population and making it so very public via your ever helpful meeja. Everyone heard you. You either live up to your end of a bargain, or the deal is off.
May won’t be long in coming round and then we’ll see. 😉
@YESINDYREF2
“What’s interesting is that I’m detecting a bit of a change in the MSM coverage of both the SNP and Independence.
I suspect that next time there’ll be tacit support in unexpected places.”
Gosh, I find that hard to believe.
O/T But worth a mention in overall support….
My wife and I used to shop at Asda… Of course we have taken our business elsewhere. Why give them £200 per week?
Shopped at Aldi’s for the first time. Excellent prices. Now can someone tell us if they are on the unofficial ‘blacklist’ or not?
Sorry… not Aldi’s …LIDLS my wife just corrected me LOL
wingman 2020
thanks. 🙂
wingman 2020 says:
14 November, 2014 at 3:27 pm
@YESINDYREF2
“What’s interesting is that I’m detecting a bit of a change in the MSM coverage of both the SNP and Independence.
I suspect that next time there’ll be tacit support in unexpected places.”
Gosh, I find that hard to believe.
Yep, new targets – they just haven’t figured out the best line of attack yet. I hear the sound of digging…..
Leopards, spots.
Wow. Thanks Alex. Colossus.
A fitting responce from the SNP conferance to Alex Salmond FM,the greatest FM Scotland ever had, & the best of Alex is yet to come,thanks for the memories Alex & those to come.
AS just finished speaking – the winners above, he believes will ” make history “. No doubt then when he believes the next Referendum will take place.
I can’t find a link to the “blacklist” at the moment Wingman but from memory I believe ALDI’s and LIDLS both were vocal in their support for Scottish independence. 😛
Good! I joined and had the privilege of voting, and took a good while in research and deciding. In the end I did vote for Hosie. Look forward to seeing them in action!
Wingman, LIDL supported Scotland. Carry on shopping there!
@Robert Louis 2:46pm
“No voters will have woken up on the 19th September and suddenly realised that by voting NO, they got nothing.
It is hard to celebrate when you win, only to find out that in reality, you won nothing at all”
Well said 🙂
The classic example of a Pyrrhic victory!
I’m not convinced Aldi/lidl were that open in supporting Yes, but they did put up banners saying ‘Scotland we’re with you’ which a lot of people took that way. Pretty canny of them really. At the very least they didn’t scaremonger on behalf of the Tories so that’s good enough for me.
I think Alex Salmond hit more nails on the head than the World Champion Nailhitter at the Champion of Champions Nailhitting championships.
A class act to the very end. We’re gonnae miss him
Completely Off Topic… But then again… Its because of the topic that I am feeling particularly happy and magnanimous. We are indeed winners.
Anyway, in the spirit of a magnanimous winner, I just wanted to say a hearty hello to all the people who read Wings but will never openly admit it.
So, in no particular order (honest) a big smiley hello to:
Duncan Hothersall
Alan Cochrane
Severin Carrell
Lamont
Murphy
Dugdale
Ballie
Curran
McTernan
Torcuil Crichton
Ian Davidson
Ian Smart
John McIntyre OBE
Ruth Davidson
Wee Wullie Rennie
We see you! 🙂 Yer teas are oot.
Did I miss anyone?
@ Wingman 2020 3.19, collective enema action lol.
Ha ha, #sexysocialdemocracy has gone mental on Twitter.
Alex and Nicola in top form at Perth this afternoon before a packed and energised auditorium.
With 10 to 12 thousand expected at the Hydro next Saturday
it could well be like a football match! I just hope Nicola gets a huge boost to her confidence from the occasion.
I see David Torrance is as graceless as ever. This is the man who sought to make money with an unauthorised biography. I suspect 100 Days may just outsell his own wee tome.
Excellent choice. Now let kick some ass!
Talking of want to kick someone’s arse, just looking in the Telegraph (yes, I should know better), and it is really annoying the language they use!
If it’s in one part of the world they are ‘pro democracy supporters’, Scotland and we are ‘separists’.
It’s never self determination or independence, like they would apply elsewhere, it’s always separation. No one on this side of the fence considers that it is separation we seek.
Grumble.
I hate those twisted bas…….
I closed my account with Clydesdale and the transfer was completed yesterday. I don’t use ASDA and have stopped my TV licence.
Very interesting indeed, and frankly, it’s what I expected, in terms of the closeness of the race. I do wonder how it would’ve gone if more of the new SNP recruits got their membership in time: 55% turnout.
You misogynist! 😛
Of course, if they actually used terms like self-determination or independence, they might start to realise they’re on the wrong side of the debate. A bit like “That Mitchell & Webb Look,” where the two Nazis start to wonder “are we the baddies?”
@wingman 2020
Will these lickspittle ("Tractor" - Ed)s be supporting Scotland and singing FOS tonight,or will they look in the mirror and see hypocrisy staring back at them and realise Scotland does not want them.
Very interesting indeed, and frankly, it’s what I expected, in terms of the closeness of the race. I do wonder how it would’ve gone if more of the new SNP recruits got their membership in time: 55% turnout.
You misogynist! 😛
Of course, if they actually used terms like self-determination or independence, they might start to realise they’re on the wrong side of the debate. A bit like “That Mitchell & Webb Look,” where the two Germans start to wonder “are we the baddies?”
Very interesting indeed, and frankly, it’s what I expected, in terms of the closeness of the race. I do wonder how it would’ve gone if more of the new SNP recruits got their membership in time: 55% turnout.
You misinogeneticist! 😛
Of course, if they actually used terms like self-determination or independence, they might start to realise they’re on the wrong side of the debate. A bit like “That Mitchell & Webb Look,” where the two Germans start to wonder “are we the baddies?”
wingman 2020 says:
14 November, 2014 at 3:30 pm
ASDA are top of my list!
Don’t know if I missed it, but I was disappointed that when both Alex Salmond and N Sturgeon mentioned others who contributed to the “Yes” campaign , woman for independence, National dCollective , ect, but no mention of “Wings”, I think Stew ought to merit a mention, I know like others here, that the “wee blue book” was very well received, indeed I still have 4 of them ( recollected) ’cause I’m going to need them for the next time!!.
And apart from the book, “wings” in the shape(?) of Stew, did and continues to do a great job of bisecting the union press, and the quest for independence would be a lot poorer without him.
There are still a dozen wee blue books in my local barbers in Marchmont, visible from the window (though it’s a few years since I’ve actually needed to go in a barbers…).
@ Albaman
So where was Wings at Perth today?
Occupying a lot of the seats, their lizard suits reversed, for the period.
Just watched Alec’s speech at conference. Stirring stuff. Wee lump in ma throat at the end.
@Lesley-Anne: I did consider voting for Angela Constance but decided that an all female team of Leader and Deputy leader was not the right way forward, sorry Angela. 😉
You misinogeneticist! 😛
That’s feminist misinogeneticist to you Taranaich! 😛
My congrat’s to Nicola and Stewart, they have and will make Scotland properly proud of their leadership and guidence.
And my thanks to Wingman 2020 for his list of the “shame of Scotland”, I was pishing myself with laughter at the fact they are proberly reading it right now. Hey naysayers away for your tea, and somebody help willie crack his boiled egg, he keeps hitting hothersal on the heed.
3 excellent candidates for Deputy Leader (what a contrast to the talentless desert that is Scottish Labour).
I voted for Stewart Hosie as I reckon that he has that invaluable quality which can’t be learnt or faked (see Murphy) namely political gravitas.
Watching Conference on the Parliament Channel it was obvious that The BBC were running a shoestring operation – it seems that they couldn’t even provide a commentator – some of the camera work was awful and what the hell happened wih the video pre Eck’s speech. Was there commnentator on the News Channel coverage?
On the subject of Aldi & Lidl an example of the sort of savings that can be made is 500g Bag of Sprouts – 89p in Aldi & Lidl(not a Special Offer – same price for weeks) – Asda – £1.25.
I’m trying to figure out what the situation wiil be at WM if Eck returns and we have Robertson as Leader in the House and Hosie as Deuty Party Leader.
I voted for Angela based primarily on having met her a few times and being very impressed with her views and her willingness to literally walk the extra mile to achieve something we all believe in. My second choice was Stewart Hosie, but I have to say that had Keith Brown won the ballot I would have been just as happy as I am. We were fortunate to have three first rate candidates to choose from. We are fortunate also in having the unity of purpose to not be upset or enraged in any way at the way the result has worked out. We are the SNP, we are part of the YES movement and we will not be denied. Onward and upward to the UK GE and the eviction of the Red Tories from Scotland.
O/T
is there a link anywhere to Alexs conference speech today. There appears to have been live streams but I can’t find one to watch as i missed it earlier. . Ta.
Have the videos been posted on Youtube or elsewhere? When I click on the Facebook link I was sent yesterday, it responds that the video is private. 🙁
Slightly O/T: Starbucks being accused by the EU commission of tax evasion through the Netherlands and the UK. It seems the new commission in Bruxelles has really decided to tackle the scourge of tax dodging. Despite what some may say, the EU does not connive (at least all the time) with the big companies.
James Arriere says
“A class act to the very end. We’re gonnae miss him”
No were not,
He’s not going anywhere,
well not apart from London that is. 🙂
I watched youtube vids of the three candidates and thought of how telegenic they were and how they handled prick interviewers on the Ministry of Truth.
This outcome does give a very strong team if Keith Brown gets DFM appointment. And of course the greatest living Scotsman takes the fight to the enemy next May.
@turnbul drier
from around 1.42
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uprczxvbI
@turnbul drier
sorry for some reason its been taken down? I don’t understand why
Almost every time Alex or Nicola appear on the BBC they have a problem with the sound, or the video, or both.
If they weren’t such an impartial and honourable broadcaster with an international reputation for integrity and balance, one would almost be tempted to think they were doing this on purpose and were actually nothing more than a biased tin-pot state broadcaster at the beck and call of the Establishment, only too willing to distort the truth and stifle anyone that was a real threat. Tick-tock.
Ian Brotherhood
Both the SSP and Greens are wary about the alliance swallowing them up and presenting them as SNP members. From what I’ve heard it’s down to the SNP branch level who they select as candidate, but also what that candidate is called on the ballot sheet.
So for instance as a guess (my quick inventions):
SNP-SSP Alliance
YES Alliance
Indy Alliance
or even:
SSP – Independence Alliance
Now the resolution is / will be passed (I was distracted), more details would be coming out soon I presume.
It’s clear that whatever name it is, it should not submerge the SSP or Green identity, as they will want to stand at least on the List vote, for 2016 Holyrood.
Alex Salmond’s conference speech …
“Because of the 55% who voted ‘no’, many did so on the last minute promise of radical constitutional reform within the Union.
Be in no doubt – without that last gasp concession the No Campaign would have had its just deserts.
Without that desperate vow of maximum devolution, Scotland would already be in a process of becoming independent.
A cynical ploy? A last minute bribe?
Certainly.
A desperate response to a Yes campaign which was gaining such ground?
Absolutely.”
Many have claimed the last minute vows/promises/offers weren’t responsible for the NO win. Well, I’m with Alex on that one. THE VOW etc is exactly what won it!
I hope Alex goes off to WM in 2015 and sets the heather on fire!
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/nov/first-minister-alex-salmond-conference-address
‘The UK is not an aspirational union – it is grudge and grievance… getting by’: A former Scots First Minister’s verdict on the state of the union
https://archive.today/x9QpT
Thanks anyway nana…
AuldA @ 5.33
I’ve searched everywhere I can think of to find a link to today’s conference. The only ones posted seem to be livestream ones even on @SNP14. Can’t find a recording anywhere. I missed the first 20minutes of the morning session & the bloody BBC didn’t show anything of the video section & even turned off the sound. That’s it TV licence is going. No more chances-I don’t pay for censorship by BBC.
If anyone comes across a link can they post it here please, pretty please 🙂
Alliances. Something should be worked out, on balance I believe so.
However, care is needed. And, others have made this point. We don’t want ‘sitting on the fence’ voters or potential SLac converts to feel they are being duped or manipulated.
Parties standing down to allow others to stand in is dangerous territory.
I note the SNP’s plans seem to be about non-SNP members, who are established YES individuals, to stand under some vague SNP-Yes banner. Jean Freeman was mentioned on GMS. I think it would be fantastic if Jean Freeman went head to head with say Margaret Curran.
The safe option is non-members under an Indy brand. Multi party is different.
We are talking about a specific, and hopefully one off, attack on the Westmidden system using first past the post for the purpose of helping to facilitate IndyRef2 within the next few years.
I hope Alex sticks around for a place at Westminster. But he must allow the current and new leaders their place. One of the problems Alex had, rightly or wrongly, was the “Ah dinnae like that Alicsammon” brigade. He had his time and he used it extraordinarily well. Time to move on….
If you want to watch a recording of the SNP conference go here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04ph3sb/snp-conferences-snp-2014-14112014
@turnbul drier @Lollysmum @Nana
Been searching too I have read the transcript of Alex’s speech but would love to see his delivery. The best I have come up with is the link to where it will be shown but for some reason it’s not up yet, I have left the tab open and keep refreshing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04trmjy
i voted for angela constance because i think she is stunningly gorgeous and im a shallow bstard.
OT Wish Call Me Dave would come back and give us a link to the fitba 🙁
This is the morning session:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04ph3sb/snp-conferences-snp-2014-14112014
Apparently the afternoon session including the AS speech will be up shortly, I’ll post a link as soon as they get round to it.
85,100 and counting.
only another 14,900
hopefully 100,000 before May.
Stronger for Scotland.
Major Bloodnok says
“though it’s a few years since I’ve actually needed to go in a barbers”
Y’see that’s the mistake you made because I went to my barber and asked him if he had anything to keep my hair in, and he came up with a great solution,
A SHOE BOX!
Ah’ll jist get eh, get ma coat.
@Proud Cybernat
Maybe lots behind the scenes from Eck and causing it down among the troughers
All my posts now being removed on the Glasgow Herald
“Had the campaign been run fairly from Westminster, and the vote had been a ‘NO’ then you’d be secure in your happiness.
It is well known, world wide in fact, that Westminster orchestrated a FEAR campaign.
Even down to Cameron gathering supermarket chiefs at No 10 to scare people on prices.
The campaign was a bitter attack on people’s right to the truth and fair debate. How can anyone with any sense be surprised that 50% of voters are more determined than ever to beat a corrupt Westminster and the Labour party.”
I dont see much wrong with this comment. Anyone else? 🙂
Croompenstein
google wizi wig
Congrats to both. And with Stewart leading at WM perhaps Alex Salmond MP can be let off the leash!!!
OT Football link
http://sportzhd.tv/
@Croompenstein try this….
http://www.wiziwig.tv/broadcast.php?matchid=287205&part=sports
Croompenstein says:
HI I’ve not gone, reading all the posts but been poorly and not contributing. Hopefully be better soon.
Loved the conference and have been lifted with the news and the developments since September.
Pick your link from here FOOTIE:
http://www.wiziwig.tv/broadcast.php?matchid=287205&part=sports
Nana
Snap 🙂
Major Bloodnok says
“If they weren’t such an impartial and honourable broadcaster with an international reputation for integrity and balance, one would almost be tempted to think they were doing this on purpose and were actually nothing more than a biased tin-pot state broadcaster at the beck and call of the Establishment, only too willing to distort the truth and stifle anyone that was a real threat.
Just as well we don’t live in such a country as you described Major eh?
can you imagine living in such a country that you had to question everything your national broadcaster said,
phew Im glad we don’t live there. 🙁
Occurred to me that I would bloody love it if Rev Stu was my MP!
Thanks folks.. hope you’re feeling better soon call me dave 🙂
@call me dave
Sorry to hear you haven’t been well, missed your posts.
Hoping you get better soon.
@John King
When I asked my hairdresser to make me beautiful he told me “I’m only the barber. The magician has just left”.
Coat’s already on.
@Proud Cybernat: One of the problems Alex had, rightly or wrongly, was the “Ah dinnae like that Alicsammon” brigade..
90% of that was the result of constant personal attacks by the opposition and our biased media.
He actually still had some of the highest personal ratings of any political leader.
Nicola will get exactly the same negative personal attacks.
They have already started going by the comments on the Sturgeon BBC article. (UK-wide to drown out any Scottish voices as per usual.)
I think the SNP did miss a trick by not having a leadership contest. Even if Nicola was the overwhelming favourite, it would have kept media attention on the party, and avoided any of the unelected ‘appointed leader’ smears.
The SNP and others do not give credit to WOS – I have never met a nicer bunch of people in my life than fellow wingers.
Wingman
Herald – it could be as simple as the use of the word “bloody”. bloodied might have passed OK.
Braw- well done Stewart. Great feeling voting for the guy. He will do us all proud. And cmon Scotland the night!
Not my most well thought out post but there you go.
PS Peterkin’s piece in the Scotsman today was a right belter – what a magnanimous guy!
Paula Rose
Absolutely
@CMD
Good to see you. 🙂
Hope you pick up soon.
Hi Nana.
Your
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uprczxvbI
link is still showing up that it’s private.
Eck was vilified for decades, the Brit nat media’s favoured tactic is to single people out and discredit them, it should be our mission to try and stop this rotten, anti Scottish media and develop into a modern Independent State where freedom of speech is the norm and media lies and manipulation is not the norm. Currently we have it the wrong way around, UK culture!
Congratulations to our new winning team. I voted for Stuart as he has consistently spoken well in every interview and debate in which I have heard him participate whereas I have heard Constance speak poorly and fail to put across important points. Keith Brown is competent also but doesn’t have the fire that Hosie blazes with. But a great three, all of whom will have a part to play as Nicola indicated.
I am hoping someone can post the video link to AS’ speech as I also had to miss it and on utube it says you need the owners permission to watch it, but no indication of where you can ask the owner for permission. How typical of EBC to block the sound so we cant even watch it on iplayer.
More talent promoted, a DFM to come & Eck unleashed, a great day for Scotland.
Wingman, I have tried to post on the Herald but get short shrift .
It has irritated me so much to have the man from Woking allowed to belittle and sneer uninterrupted while relatively mild criticism of the media of Scotland is removed.
I voted for Stewart Hosie but I agree that any of the three would have done a good job.
No money for children in need from me because of the BBC
Will give it to charity myself
I know Brian,I have no idea who took it down.
fionan
this one perhaps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uprczxvbI
wing man 2020 your comment to the glasherald is mild.
CalumCarr
Cheers for the link. Was just about to see if i could find a stream.
fionan
nope it does not work sorry.
Paula Rose says:
14 November, 2014 at 7:27 pm
The SNP and others do not give credit to WOS.
You need to get out more I,ve spoken with quite a few SNP MSPs & they’re very thankfull to WOS & the WBB.
In addition to being the two best politicians in the UK, I suggest both Alex and Nicola are squeaky clean. You can bet your bawbees the media and the Westminster based parties have been raking for something, anything on them. For months, if not years.
Looks like they found nothing, Nada, zilch. Now what about the leaders of the same Westminster parties??????
I voted for Mr Hosie too, although as many new members said to me, they are all so good, I’m torn!! What a great problem for a political party.
I’m just reading the comments about the sound going off during the FM speech, and just furious at the blatant pish we have to endure!
When I said to my local anti fracking group I learned a lot watching RT, I was gently chastised by another member saying they are the state broadcaster. I responded by saying yes, but they fill in all the empty space that the British state broadcaster leaves out, and I like to reach my own conclusions, not settle for a diet of pap, like who got their head stuck in a bin today, or if one of the Royals is vomiting.
@ James123
Thanks for the link. Found the bit of 1st session I missed on iplayer but the BBC did not record the video presentation about AS. They just gave us film of the top table watching the film. 🙁
Ronnie love – my comment was about the higher echelons – here in Brechin all the SNP team were avid wingers, might have had something to do with me whipping them into shape.
Looking forward to my visit back to Scotland and Nicola’s speech at the Hydro.
I have my bag packed, bucket and spade.
See yous all at the Hydro and after at the Yes Bar.
Paula Rose
This site is an easy target folk that don’t come on here will believe any pish thats spewed about it especially the way Stu destroys their bullshit which scares them.
Aye ronnie,
At 7-49 pm, but that’s not the same as acknowledging “wings” from the stage, during a live broadcast , when one thinks of the following Stew has here, some recognition would go a long way, anyone here got the “ear” of one of the top S.N.P.folk?.
@ haggis hunter at 7.31pm
Thats why England can’t seem to grow it’s own version of SNP. The individuals are destroyed by the 3 main parties & MSM before they can become established enough to threaten the status quo.
I decided that if we couldn’t have our own independence party to fight back I would support your fight by joining SNP. Very glad I did too-hope you don’t mind.
Wingman
That post looks OK. But if you came through via some other outlet while logged into Dosqus, sometimes your name gets replaced with “Guest”, and of course it needs a name, not a moniker like Wingman.
If anyone needs a reminder of how scurrilous BBC Scotland news is, check out the bile towards the SNP in the “comments” section on today SNP Conference article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30011423. The hatred and childishness of the most “Highest rated” comments is appauling. Those moderating the comments are a disgrace. Its counter-productive of the BBC to twist the comments to a unionist agenda. As Nicola Sturgeon said at the Caird Hall in Dundee last Friday … ignore them .. Go round them, above them and by pass them. Roll on the new media for truth and integrity.
Alex Salmond:
“CONFERENCE, LET US NOW SET A TARGET OF WINNING OUR FIRST UK GENERAL ELECTION IN SCOTLAND.”
“And let us be open and generous – to allow some shining stars of the YES movement to stand under the SNP banner reflecting the historic shift that has taken place.”
59 seats out of 59 must now be our target for 2015.
We can still become independent in 2016.
With zero or close to zero Scottish MPs, the unionists will have no mandate or credibility to pass a single law affecting Scotland after May 2015.
@Lollysmum, @James123 and others, thanks for the links provided.
@Paula Rose:
I have never met a nicer bunch of people in my life than fellow wingers.
That’s because you never met me: I’m a weasel. Err… a skunk. Darn, wrong thread. 24 hours late. And a boob at that!
Wings got a very positive mention at the Scots Independent fringe meeting. The WBB was widely praised.
If I’d been called to speak on the raptor persecution motion, someone wearing two Wings badges would have been at the lectern.
But I wasn’t. I’m officially pissed off about that. Never mind.
Folks at last we have Alex’s speech, not surprisingly it’s still not on the BBC but it’s on STV halfway down the page speech in full….
http://tinyurl.com/mh3d9qw
Choosing prospective parliamentary candidates for the SNP is carried out by Constituency Associations from an approved list of candidates. If there is going to be a Yes Alliance for the Westminster elections, there needs to be a willingness to co-operate now, not just at election time. The list of approved candidates needs to include the best candidates, whether SNP, SSP, Green or non party political. The selection committees also need to include all the above. It may be that SNP members will be in the majority, purely due to weight of numbers, but, as an SNP member, I can guarantee that I will choose whoever I believe is most likely to unseat Katy Clark. We all need to accept this if we want the wonderful spirit engendered during the referendum campaign to continue until we gain our Independence.
The future of the indy movement is in good hands. Many rhanks to Mr Salmond, you brought us closer to independence than we have been since 1707.
Can’t imagine the same optimism surrounding His Jimness’ coronation.
Morag – wings and raptors, honey I have been guilty of suggesting you do not have a sense of humour, forgive me.
AuldA xx
@ Croompenstein at 8.33pm
Thanks for trying but that link doesn’t work either.
(Morag – a wee number for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVupIO6OavU)
Lollysmum says:
“England can’t seem to grow it’s own version of SNP”
A good observation. Perhaps it’s because their whole psych is orientated to towards an ‘ordered’ hierarchical society and not the egalitarian social democracy we Scots take to more readily. I wouldn’t say its in the genes because deep down we share most of those throughout the islands. It is maybe a cultural thing going back centuries. They, after all, England never had anything like the Declaration of Arbroath.
I’m not suggesting anything as vulgar as “we are superior”‘, no, just different in outlook.
Paula, the badge would have been quite appropriate!
1-0 to Scotland.
Maloney. Yaaaaaaasssss!
@Lollysmum – I’ve just watched it and Alex was superb, his gold yes badge glinting and a glint in his eye for the fight to come. Here is the full url try this….
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/299662-former-snp-leader-alex-salmond-gives-farewell-speech-to-party/
@ Paula Rose
Albaman.
I dont think any Wingers from the start expect praise or a mention in dispatches. We Wingers do, because we can,& what we do we do well, so lets just keep on doing it.
England never had anything like the Declaration of Arbroath
To be fair gala they did have the Magna Carta 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
@ Fairlierd
I’m one of those who was excited about the idea of a Yes Alliance beforehand, but I’m not sure that what they announced today really constitutes an alliance. All it means is that people who aren’t SNP members can now represent the SNP. But surely anyone who would have wanted to represent the SNP would have joined already (e.g. Tommy Shepherd, potentially Ivan McKee). And it is to be assumed that they will be expected to take the SNP whip.
The relative success of the Yes campaign was that it was, genuinely, a grouping of people from all parties and none. With the announcement today, there doesn’t seem to be an outreach towards other parties, and a number of people who are of “no party” are of no party for a reason, and they are unlikely to be attracted to stand as a representative of a party they disagree with in a number of things.
Make no mistake, the SNP are going it alone.
As an SNP member for 40 years, I think that going it alone will be a missed opportunity.
As someone who has never contemplated joining the SNP, I too think going it alone will be a missed opportunity.
I have just joined the SNP. What can any party leader say at the party conference?? The SNP have already changed by changing their rules so members can vote on deputy and on constituency candidates and then to allow people to become candidates not yet members of the snp, who were part of the yes grassroots campaign,
The SNP have done their bit it needs for other YES people to do their bit.
I think tactically it’s a difficult decision and I’m inclined to support Nicola at the moment. This is a bad time for SNP members to turn on each other.
From the SNP media centre:
“Conference therefore mandates the National Executive Committee to explore options that would allow individuals who were part of the Yes campaign, but who do not satisfy the current membership criteria for candidacy, to be considered for inclusion on the approved list of candidates. Decisions about selection would continue to rest with members of individual constituencies.
Any changes to the candidate and selection rules that arise from the NEC’s consideration of these options would require the approval of National Council.”
So they’re exploring options, presumably any option.
Arbroath was way better
I’m confused about whether we’ve really agreed to candidates standing for the SNP who are not actually SNP members. I thought the wording implied simply that we were removing the current requirements, mainly referring to the length of membership required to be a candidate. Which I fully support, under present circumstances.
But some are saying, and indeed I thought I heard Nicola Sturgeon say it from the platform, that people could stand without being members at all. I don’t get that. Why would anyone want to stand under the SNP banner if they weren’t prepared to join the party at all? That makes no sense.
At the moment I can’t see myself supporting anyone as an SNP candidate for our constituency who isn’t prepared to sign up as a party member. And if we did adopt a non-member, they’re assuming a lot if they think I’ll automatically go out campaigning for them.
I suppose we wait and see what happens. The leadership are probably trying to give themselves and everyone the widest possible room for manoeuvre. But a candidate who won’t join the party sounds a bit bizarre to me.
What makes u think this could b interpreted as ‘going alone’??
@ Piemonties 10.02
Make no mistake, the SNP are going it alone.
Contrary to what has been stated by Stewart Hosie & other SNP cabinet members,lets just wait & see before rattling of your gums.
@ Croompenstein
Worked that time but it didn’t have the video about Alex that I was looking for. BBC did not show the video on Parliament Channel & I wanted to know why.
Found it on Youtube & now I know why they wouldn’t screen it here in England. It showed that AS & SNP took on both Tory Thatcher & Labour’s Blair & showed they were beatable and he won 🙂 Thanks to the internet we can now see the truth.. Took several hours to find it but I’m so glad that I did.
They daren’t show it here as it will give the English ideas above our station. It certainly explains the bile spewing out of red & blue tory mouths year in year out for the last 20 years or so.
If you didn’t see it search for Tribute to Alex Salmond on Youtube. I would recommend it
If that was a defeated party’s conference I watched on the parliament channel I’d really, really like to see it if they had won independence. BTW: With those youngsters speaking at conference the futute is not only bright but safe and in good hands.
Just been enjoying Salmond’s speech on YouTube, particularly the last words: “Forward to independence!”
I think the SNP has made the right move re outsiders. To me it reads like a yes alliance in all but name, weighing up each individual case. As I understand it, we are talking about the bigger names from the indy yes campaign, not just any old tam, dick and harry. I believe it is a good idea to put big names up in seats where the SNP might struggle.
I would put Craig Murray up against Broon, Ivan McKee against Murphy, Jeanne Freeman against Margaret Curran (I believe Darren Carnegie has already said he will stand there). This is the right move to make, because it brings the SNP closer to the whole people of Scotland (well, ok, the 45% — actually over 50% at the moment, heheh).
I very much believe in a rainbow alliance to take us to autonomy and independence, but it needs a powerful figurehead, so let that be the SNP with a flexible policy. I am sure that around 50 of the seats will still be fought by the “common or garden” SNP — let the handful where the SNP have little chance be fought by the right person.
It is very noble of the SNP to say: it is not all about us, it is about Scotland. And that helps to overcome the Labour rubbish “vote SNP, get Tories”. We can say: “vote SNP to represent SCOTLAND at Westminster.”
Morag , what makes you say that? It appears to be a way for local SNP branches to support non SNP folk democratically, bringing the local organisation behind someone from the broader common Weald. Clearly it would be the exception and not the rule.
This helps non-SNP folk like me get out there regardless of candidate
A wise move – in first past the post there is no point being a close second
The BBC finally got round to putting up this afternoon’s session of the SNP conference which includes AS speech.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04trmjy/snp-conferences-snp-2014-14112014
BTW well done Scotland beating Ireland and well done the Faroe Islands beating Greece away WTF!!
Yesindyref2,
You are right, they are exploring options. I have great cionfidence in the leadership to do whatever is needed to ensure sucess next year.
Including folk from the YES campaign is an excellent idea, and I’m sure there will be some very good people who may choose to stand.
These are good times for the SNP, and the YES movement. Looking forward to Nicola’s big speech tomorrow, and then we have the SSE Hydro on the 22nd, which will be the political event of the century.
@ Morag
I had read sources beforehand saying the SNP were going to allow non-members to stand, and that definitely seems to be what Nicola Sturgeon said.
I agree that it’s a solution that doesn’t really seem to suit anyone. For the wider Yes campaign, it looks like a top-down strategy that seems to fly in the face of what was being said during campaign, when it was stressed on various occasions that the Yes Campaign does not mean SNP. Whereas, now it seems that it will be the SNP’s Executive Council who decide what shape this wider net will take.
Ideally, this would have arisen from a Yes-led meeting between the key groups and parties, but that was always going to be difficult while time was ticking away and the SNP Deputy Leadership (where the Alliance was made out to be a key issue) was still to be resolved. To be fair to the SNP, the Greens never seemed particularly interested, and it’s unclear what kind of benefit they would have got from involving them in the first place. However, cross-party agreement would have conveyed a sense of balance.
As you say, Morag, it’s hard to see local SNP groups selecting non-members, and it’s hard to see non-members willing to stand.
What could feasibly happen for 2015, though, is that the key pro-indy groups are involved in another way. We could see Business for Scotland sponsored candidates, or Common Weal sponsored candidates, or Women for Indy sponsored candidates, which would also work as pressure groups within the parliament. It wouldn’t be ideal though, because it would ultimately mean they are absorbed by the SNP, in a similar way as UNITE-sponsored candidates for Labour.
I think the SNP needed to do something given that S. Hosie and A. Constance were standing on an Alliance ticket, and this is lip-service being paid to the idea without much enthusiasm for it among the leadership.
I should say. This isn’t criticism of the SNP. I just think there was another way to arrange it with greater will on all sounds. In fact, I’m delighted, because my range of bets on the SNP winning specific seats would have been null and void if “Alliance” candidates were standing instead.
It’s my current reaction. If someone who was hugely active during the referendum has decided right now they want to transfer that huge committment to being an SNP candidate for Westminster, why wouldn’t they join the party, now?
If they won’t, I have trouble seeing how someone like that would make an effective SNP MP. I just don’t understand the idea at all. Maybe I’m missing something. We’ll see.
@Cadogan
Ma Broath was even better 🙂
@ Morag. Your third paragraph reads to me as Party before the People. As a non political party member am I wasting my time supporting the SNP/SSP/WFI/LFI.I thought Wings over Scotland & Wingers is/are a pro Independence body of people,who’s aims are Independence or am I wrong ?.
@ Cadogan Enright
By “going it alone”, I mean to say that it will be the SNP’s name on the ballot paper. It appears to be the SNP trying to bring others in, rather than actively reaching out.
As I say, I’m not placing the fault at the SNP’s door. They weren’t left with much choice, as the other interested groups and parties seemed to leave the decision for the SNP to make on its own.
I could be wrong, but it doesn’t sound like what they’re proposing is a cross-party or cross-grouping alliance, rather an extension to individuals in the campaign.
Morag
the way i see it, is backing for the ssp, scotgreens, etc.
can’t expect them to join the snp.
OK, et al.
What about this HYPOTHETICAL situation?
Alan Grogan stands against Jim MacGovern in Dundee West, under the ‘SNP – Scottish Socialist Party’ banner, with no SNP or Green standing.
What would be the outcome of such a hypothetical situation?
@fairlired – we’ll said. It’s first past the post. Winning is the key object. And it allows non-SNP to join what would be a national alliance
Flexibility of thought and action could deliver close to 59 seats
I think people are forgetting that this is about the people of Scotland and not Party Politics.
I look for ONE guarantee from a candidate – That they will fight for an Independent Scotland. After that the people of Scotland will decide the makeup of Scotland.
Why should we not get behind Colin Fox or Patrick Harvie?
The YES values were shared were they not?
@ gala & croompenstein
“To be fair gala they did have the Magna Carta”
Yes we did & fat lot of good it’s done us! We have been under our betters boots for so long that I think we’ve forgotten how to stand up for ourselves & for what is right. Being ex-navy, ex-police & others I came to my own conclusions that there was nothing great about great britain & that we had an enormous amount to apologise to other countries for. I’m now in my 60’s & see no reason to change that view.
I think that’s probably why I read WOS every day- Scotland gives me hope that one day my lot will have the bottle to do the same but I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime whereas I’m sure Scotland will. I look forward to that day.
@ Morag
“If they won’t [join the party], I have trouble seeing how someone like that would make an effective SNP MP”
My sentiment is the same, but from the opposite viewpoint. In the sense that, I have trouble seeing how someone who puts themselves forward as an external candidate, but is willing to run on an SNP ticket, would be an effective “non-SNP” MP.
@ Brian Doonthetoon
The idea of candidates standing on a joint ticket (SSP-SNP; SNP-Green; SNP-Green-Common Weal) is a sensible idea. It’s something that is done in Presidential or mayoral elections the world over, and it would be interesting to see 59 different individual competitions such as this.
Whose onus is it to propose such a system, though?
There’s no seat where a Green or a SSP candidate has a better chance than an SNP candidate, and that’s just a fact. For the SNP to “stand aside” to give either party a free run at a seat would virtually be throwing it away. The idea that many thousands of SNP voters would dutifully vote Green or SSP is fanciful.
That’s just realpolitik. It may not be to everyone’s liking, but you can’t share out people’s votes as if free will hadn’t been invented. I know both the Greens and the SSP harboured hopes of getting someone into WM on the back of a Yes Alliance, because they had no other way of getting a seat, but it’s just not practical.
The SNP has a different problem. There is a perception that the party might get over 30 seats. There aren’t going to be many (if any) seats where it can afford to field a paper candidate because it knows there’s no chance of that person becoming an MP. In effect the party needs 53 (additional) good and credible candidates to field in May.
Given that most of the people in that category who stood in 2010 found themselves in Holyrood in 2011, this is a tall order. The party would be insane not to look at the big figures of the independence movement to fill the gap.
So that’s where we are, and so far I see the sense in it. But standing people as SNP candidates who aren’t actually party members because even though they’ve been selected they still won’t join? In what version of reality is that a good idea?
I wonder if Nicola was really meaning that people might stand who are not now members, as in not yet members. That people who have yet to join might stand. That people might actually be recruited as potential PPCs. So long as they’re prepared to join up, I don’t see a problem with this.
I see more of a problem persuading people that ditching their life plans to go and spend five years in London and on various sleepers and shuttle flights is a good idea. I’d run a mile.
But what about my ‘Alan Grogan’ scenario?
we fight for social justice.
imo colin fox would make an excellent mp and fight his own corner on socialist ideas.
left wing diversity, is an honourable goal.
there is enough for us all.
It’s not like that. This is a parliamentary election, under FPTP, and candidates stand under a party banner or as independents. That’s the way it is.
If someone doesn’t want to join a party they can stand as an independent. That’s fine. If someone wants to stand for a named party, why on earth would they do that while refusing to actually join that party? It doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.
We’re campaigning for people to be SNP MPs and take the SNP whip in the House of Commons. How can a person who isn’t a party member take the SNP whip? Maybe there’s something I don’t understand.
Cadogan Enright at 2305,
You have hit the nail on the head. Bringing in people from the YES movement as potential candidates is an extremely good idea. As the UKGE is first past the post, and the costs and organisation required are huge, I think using the SNP banner is the smartest option.
For Holyrood 2016, there will then be an opportunity to collaborate on an even greater level with the other pro indy parties, like SSP, the Greens and so on.
As a long standing member of the SNP, I think we need to do whatever is needed to ensure we have the very best indy candidates, so including some of the YES talent, is to me, a no brainer. In addition, there were some exceptional (non SNP)people in the YES campaign, who would make excellent candidates. Seems like Nicola and the SNP are on the right track with this.
Now all we need to do is get out campaigning..watch out Labour, your days in Scotland are numbered.
I’m sure Colin Fox or Alan Grogan would make great MPs. But they’re members of the SSP and they’d stand for the SSP. They’re not going to stand as SNP candidates while being members of a different party. Or I wouldn’t think so. How could that ever work?
If the SNP stood aside in any seat to give either of these people a “clear run”, I don’t think they’d win. There aren’t sufficient SNP voters prepared to vote SSP, it’s really that simple. You can’t command people’s votes like that.
I know there are some nice ideas and egalitarian suggestions going round, but most of them fouder on purely practical grounds.
Posted this earlier today, and do so again in the hope that it clarifies latest SSP position –
http://richieventon.blogspot.co.uk/
@ Brian Doonthetoon
I was responding to your Allan Grogan scenario. In that case, he would be standing on a joint ticket, and despite being an SSP member, he would be likely to attract the votes of people who would otherwise vote for an SNP member, because the letters “SNP” would be on the ballot paper beside his name, like so:
Allan Grogan SSP – SNP – Green (why not?)
That way people wouldn’t get confused by finding “Alliance” instead of “SNP” on the ballot paper.
The problem is, what would be the selection process? Presumably most seats would have a Yes-positive electorate divided 90% SNP, 8% Green, 2% SSP, or the like. Unless it was an open nomination system like the Tories have been using for some of their candidates.
@brian 4 morag
Exactly – or Patrick Harvey elsewhere. If it helps the SNP win a landslide with 40-odd seats of its own and the ability to say more than 50per cent voted for yes caandidates, what harm?
Robert Louis, do you really envisage people who are members of other political parties, or who won’t join the SNP, standing as SNP parliamentary candidates?
I can’t get my head round how that would actually happen.
I believe the SNP are not in favour of a Devo max alliance for the 2015 general election. They must know that people like Cat Boyd, Alan Grogan, probably Lesley Riddoch, Jeanne Freeman etc would not want to stand under a SNP banner. Is it the right decision? Given the shortage of time it probably is the right one. However, it is pretty transparent that the SNP leadership do not want an alliance. I suspect the Scottish Greens are not keen on one either. I know many people liked the Yes campaign because it was made up of different parties, independents, and non party people. However, that kind of a campaign could not continue in the long term.
@ Fred Blogger
I agree about Colin Fox. He’s impressed me every time I’ve heard him speak. Because of him I’m planning to vote SSP on the Lothian list in 2016.
@ Morag & Muttley
That’s just the thing. To name but two examples, Cat Boyd would make an excellent Yes representative (I hesitate to use the word Parliamentarian), but there is next to no chance that she would run on an SNP (I have no idea if she’d otherwise be up for Westminster anyway). The same is true of someone like Pat Kane (who wouldn’t be available anyway) who has a decent Yes profile, but is a Green, and would surely not choose to represent the SNP.
I struggle to see who the SNP non-member proposal is aimed at bringing in.
Re non SNP standing etc. I see it as a toe in the water of a Yes Alliance which will probably become clearer once the terminology has been ironed out
2016 is of course an entirely different kettle of fish. With PR, and in particular with the d’Hondt system, there are a lot of possibilities that simply don’t exist under FPTP. I think there’s a good chance for the bog hitters from the SSP and the Greens to get into Holyrood through the list in that way, and I think that’s excellent.
But we are where we are for Westminster. We didn’t make the rules but we have to play by them. And the FPTP rules say party with >40% in the opinion polls is the one that has to carry the vote, when the others in the potential alliance are <10%.
Big hitters, sorry!
@moyag Just listened to Angus and Nicola
It’s clear they have scenarios like Brian’s in mind
However they want to ensure the support of each constituency association for any choice
@ Morag FPTP its horses for coarses, until theres a agreement ( formal or otherwise ) its all speculative & benefits no one.
Lollysmum
Thanks for that, wonderful to watch, known history but with the inside commentary. I knew Falkirk the SNP delivered Labour Dev Indy leaflets in 79, didn’t know about ‘Lithgow. I wonder how many other places that happened? Funny thing is too, not all the SNP were behind it to start with, they wanted Indy not Devo. Not a lot of people know that one. Mixed-up times.
Perhaps not a lot of people know that Brian Wilson, chairman of the group that brought in the infamous 40% rule, used to be a member of the SNP before joining Labour. And the Trade unions were mixed but much against it because it was “a bad bill”. I used to argue with shop stewards to take what we could when we could and build on it, but that was futile. Times!
There could be copyright issues the reason the BBC didn’t show it, also “illegal war”, “impeach of Blair”, even comments about the Record and the Sun outdoing each other. On the other hand if they hadn’t previewed it which is quite likely, they might be justified in not taking a chance, as suddenly Alex shouts out “F*** the BBC” before the watershed!
the snp are obviously not planning on fighting every seat 2014ge, so imv if you are an snp member in a non represented seat, then campaign for the best candidate for social justice.
p s i mean 2015ge.
@Morag
Nicola did say just for 2015 & 2016 elections SNP could relax their eligibility rules to allow those who didn’t fulfill the current eligibility criteria (length of party membership)to allow those recently joined people to offer themselves as PPC’s. I took that to mean those who have joined since the referendum & others who may be approached in the next few weeks. I think it was an attempt to remove the barrier to drawing in the talent of the Yes movement but at the same time it had to be vague so that it didn’t tie the party’s hands to a particular course of action.
She needed the constituency membership to feel they had complete control over their selection whilst Nicola was at the same time confirming that the actual mechanics of selection would be taken care of by the usual route (vetting). Reassurance was being given that the party was not usurping local power/choice.
I also think you’re right that it would take some very special people to give up a career to embark on a life in politics. We know that Ivan McKee has joined SNP but wouldn’t be eligible to stand without the suggested flexibility.
Morag,
I don’t think you need to be worrying.
The SNP is changing, and moving with the new politics of Scotland. I am very happy that they wish to pull in new talent from the YES campaign. Any problems are there to be solved, and I am confident they will be. No sweat.
Remember, Nicola’s main speech is tomorrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsl7Xh9Ae1k
Goodnite all.
Alex Salmond and I delivered yes leaflets in Broxburn in1979 and on other side of street Labour delivered No leaflets plus local trade unions refused to deliver stuc yes leaflets. As a young activist it shaped my opinion of Labours commitment to Scotland rather than party and nothing has changed in35 years
Lollysmum, what you post is what I originally thought. I was just about to tweet that from the hall, something to the effect that nobody was suggesting people who weren’t SNP members should stand as party candidates, just that people could stand as soon as they joined without having to wait a year or whatever.
I deleted the tweet unsent, because at that very moment I heard Nicola say that non-party-members could stand as candidates. Now I’m really puzzled.
But you know what. There have been times in the past when I had no clue at all what the hell the SNP leadership was playing at, and only later did it become clear and it was a pretty smart move. So I’ll wait and see.
I don’t think there’s any possibility that the SNP won’t stand candidates in every seat. The party’s constitution obliges it to do that, and we weren’t asked to change that today. The question is, will any of these candidates be people who are not members of the SNP.
Wait and see. Personally, I doubt it.
Hi Morag.
You typed,
“I can’t get my head round how that would actually happen.”
I think that’s why we have to accept that the goalposts have moved. Probably not deliberately, but they’ve moved.
Political scenarios that would have been inconceivable 5 years ago now appear to have merit.
Due to the massive increase support in the SNP, it would be easy to assume that they will rule the roost but, if you take it down to a local level (and my local level is Dundee), I suspect that a lot of new SNP members here would not be averse to campaigning on behalf of Grogan on a ‘SNP-SSP’ ticket to oust MacGovern in Dundee West.
Maybe that’s where the SNP policy of devolving these decisions down to local levels may reap benefits?
I don’t know – I’m a political novice…
Brian, but have we agreed to joint tickets like that? I don’t think we have.
I thought we were agreeing to waive the membership requirements for candidates, in that we wanted people to be eligible to stand from the minute they joined. Normally that would be a bad idea but right now it is a good idea, so fine.
Nicola seemed to be saying that we might adopt as SNP candidates people who were not even members. I’m a lot more dubious about that. Why would even new members be happy to campaign for someone who thought so little of the party that they wouldn’t even join up?
What nobody has even breathed a word about is that we might adopt members of other parties on a joint ticket. I’ll be interested to see if that happens, but it wasn’t something I thought we were being asked to endorse.
Morag
puzzled a bit, but lets go for a social justice candidate with a good chance of winning a particular WM seat, in that case.
Are Yes Dunblane ahead of the game?
This from the meeting of 28 October:
“The SNP in the town have held two meetings to invite anyone interested in being an activist for the YES movement to attend their pre-planned SNP meetings […] The SNP committee willingly stand down to make way for the election of a new YES committee – necessary as a structure to facilitate the needs of the group.”
And from 12 November:
“While some SNP councillors in Stirling have mooted an interest in standing for election it was felt that the SNP should consider opening up its arms to the possibility of embracing well known “celebrity” candidates from a wider net of pro-Independence groups or even non- Party political individuals.”
Feeling emotional tonight. Thanks Alex Salmond for all your hard work for the Scottish people! I’ve been with you all the way!
Congrats to Nicola and Stewart! Couldn’t have picked a better pair to continue our journey to Independence!
Robert Louis
Yes, I’m quite confident the leadership is behind the alliance platform, in some way or another, particlualry with non-aligned candidates from WFI, BfS and others. How much it extends to SSP / Green I don’t know, and can’t get a feel for.
One problem is that the leadership don’t run the party though mostly the party will get behind them, it’s the members run the party. And the leadership will know there’ll be resistance from some long-standing members and even branches, so they’ll have to go carefully.
I’m not convinced my branch has any interest in new members, perhaps there’s even a resentment of so many new members disturbing a comfortable routine. The one meeting I got the notice of and went was relatively small attendance compared with others I read of here and the SNP website due to a highly boring agenda, and I’ve heard nothing about more meetings since, even though some are already discussing candidature. Maybe expressing my opinions a bit, I was removed from the list!
Some branches / members might just want “business as normal”, well, if they think that game is over, it ain’t.
I notice Morag is back. After her attack last week on Craig Murray. he asked her to give one piece of evidence to back her attack up. She went quiet. NOW here she is back.
Well I do not know who she is what she is what she has contributed before. I do not know.
What I do know is if i was say someong like John McTernan, i would place my friends into the enemies camp, to appear as one of their, but slowly to spread disinformation and deception amongst my enemies, to cause trouble and try to get them at each others throats, in their camp. ”Tse Sui – the art of war”.
Morag I do not trust you. You are are not to be trusted.
If I am wrong accept Craig Murray’s challenge and produce one fact to back your attacks, on him, up.
Go on!
I watched most of the Greens conference on Livestream & I’m sure the debate on running under any other name but green was defeated.
If you listen to Nicola’s words when she proposed the argument for flexibility, she used the word ‘explore’ meaning to consider all possible options without dictating a specific course of action. Basically giving free rein to different ideas being considered.
I thought that was a good move because it didn’t commit anyone to anything but it did give the widest possible remit to find workable solution caused by an energised & massively enlarged membership and an unexpected influx of talent to the indy cause. Consider it to be a way of conference giving permission to think the previously unthinkable & probably never been done before.
@ Piemonteis
I was at a meeting last month where someone asked Cat Boyd about standing for Westminster. Her response was something along the lines of it being a five-year prison sentence. I think we can assume that she will not be a candidate – I can’t see what would change her mind.
Also, although I have been known to vote Green (on several occasions), I think we should be careful about considering them a pro-indy party. I believe that the vote about whether to support the Yes campaign was 2:1, and people like Robin Harper were certainly opposed. I’ve also seen a comment (no idea how reliable) to the effect that Patrick Harvie’s stated priority for 2015 is to get Caroline Lucas re-elected in Brighton. I’d also like her to keep her seat, but it does rather rule him out from campaigning, let alone standing, up here. The influx of new members may change the party’s commitment to independence, but we shouldn’t assume that a Green candidate is automatically onside.
Here we go again. I’ve already said that the idea of Craig Murray as an SNP candidate disturbs me very much, for a number of reasons. If people don’t want to read these reasons, or disagree with me, that’s fine. It’s my opinion. If it turns out I’m wrong, then that’s fine too.
What I’m not fine with is this developing Wings “party line” pressure group. It seems I’m not allowed to express a number of opinions, or else people are going to gang up on me and shout me down.
I’m not allowed to explain why I don’t believe the referendum voting papers were tampered with. I’m not allowed to question repeated claims that the man who egged Murphy is a mystery who has “disappeared” even though his name and address and background are common knowledge. And I’m not allowed to dissent from the groupthink that Craig Murray is some sort of god.
Others seem to be free to express their opinions without being shouted down and monstered for them. How about letting me do the same?
And she’s right. It takes exceptional people to do that job and do it well, and I’m always amazed that we’ve found people who are prepared to do it, and who do it well.
I think Cat is very wise to realise this, and I just hope anyone who does agree to stand understands what they might be letting themselves in for.
Morag honey – will you be dancing in the Yes Bar next weekend? I do so sincerely hope so.
Getting a bit old for the dancing bit, but might be there, could be, going to hear Nicola anyway.
Where exactly is it?
That makes a lot of sense and I think you’re right that we mainly wait and see. At the moment I can’t understand why the SNP would want someone as a candidate who wasn’t prepared to join the party, but sometimes you have to see what the proposal really entails before the penny drops. Maybe.
Dennis Canavan for Falkirk —Tommy Sheriden in the Glasgow seat with the largest majority for labour
@james Caithness
I am afraid you will have to put up with morag, this is Rev Stu`s site and he seems to trust her ,for me she is the Mata Hari of the internet,or else she is actually the most negative person to ever draw breath.
Thanks for that, I love you too sweetie.
How about Tommy Sheridan for a glasgow seat and Dennis Canavan for Falkirk
If Tommy Sheridan ever stands for Westminster as an SNP candidate, I’ll probably eat my membership card.
@ James Caithness
I didn’t realise we were talking about Craig Murray. We all share some views others don’t agree with, but it doesn’t mean the person we disagree with is not to be trusted. If Morag’s views on the matter are so evidently contrary to yours, the best thing to do is not to bring the subject up with her, because you know it won’t get either of you anywhere.
Hi Morag.
You alleged,
“I’m not allowed to question repeated claims that the man who egged Murphy is a mystery who has “disappeared” even though his name and address and background are common knowledge”
This is from the link below…
“An unemployed Scottish independence supporter who threw eggs at Labour MP Jim Murphy in Kirkcaldy High Street last Thursday has been sentenced to 80 hours’ community service.
Stuart MacKenzie, 45, who lives in the High Street, admitted assaulting the shadow minister as he spoke in the town centre as part of his soapbox 100 towns in 100 Days tour for Better Together.”
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/fife/kirkcaldy-yes-supporter-sentenced-for-egging-jim-murphy-1.558970
Why would you need to question that which is common knowledge, if you keep up with events by following the Scottish press, like The Courier, online?
You also typed,
“And I’m not allowed to dissent from the groupthink that Craig Murray is some sort of god.”
But you haven’t actually typed what it is you have against the man – and THAT is what ‘james Caithness’ was alluding to.
I’ve met Mr Murray a couple of times and I haven’t been distressed. So, what is it about him that you find ‘off-topic’?
Bollocks Morag. Give the example to back up your attacks on the man. after a week from the your latest attack, you turn up again.
Back your past attacks up with the ONE reason for them.?
Bollocks Morag. Give the example to back up your attacks on the man. after a week from the your latest attack, you turn up again.
Back your past attacks up with the ONE reason for them.
Maybe the idea is like Labour-Cooperative. Except I hope we dont get people like Ian Davidson and Johanne Lamont 🙂
@james Caithness
And you are?
Deary me… How did this get onto Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan?
The above links I’ve looked at, apart from the STV one, have either ben marked ‘private’ on youtube or have not, I suspect, linked to the video intentended by the poster.
Hopefully the following one is OK
youtu.be/PeEFwqswPpk
Brian, exactly. The eggman’s name and address and background are common knowledge. Even before they were published, our own CameronB revealed his name was Stuart and he had shared a flat with him some years ago.
But for pointing this out to a couple of posters who were repeatedly posting that the egg-thrower was a “mystery man” who had “disappeared”, and that this was something that needed investigating, I was shouted down over an entire thread.
I’ve already explained what disturbs me about Craig Murray. If people don’t see it from that blog of his, and other biographical details, then I’m not going over it yet again. If he turns into an effective SNP MP, I’ll happily eat my words. It seems that the entire readership of Wings is so devoted to him that I’m not even allowed to express my worries, so we’ll just leave it at that.
I have met people who are contributors to this site in person.
others have met each other who are contributors to the site in person.
Has anyone met Morag in person?
If they have I would be less inclined to be suspicious.
Chic McGregor –
The original video, as streamed this afternoon, must be made public!
Average White Band, ‘Let’s Go Round Again’ –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcy45EuGcI
“England can’t embrace an SNP equivalent” or words to that effect.
Of course not. They’re not allowed to.
As we are all well aware there are them and us newspapers north and south. Scots are told we are subsidy junkies, English are told Scots are subsidy junkies.
Any Englishman worth his salt fed up of these ungrateful sweaties would vote to ged rid right?
If only they had the opportunity. Imagine, a mighty independent England. Why do they need these impoverished Celtic regions? They have London. It’s the capital of England UK and maybe even Europe.
It seems unimaginable that England would want to keep these Celtic regions in a Union that clearly didn’t benefit them.
The solution? Well it would appear that all the Tory variants, Blue, Red, Purple and Yellow are quite keen to keep the most costly region of Scotland. I don’t get it myself.
It is very strange that the English voters don’t get a chance to decide whether or not they would like to keep a union with the scrounging Scots. It is even stranger that they have not formed an SNP equivalent. Why it would sometimes appear that they seem happy with the status quo.
Quite why anyone would want to be in a union where one side is superior to the other and gets to spend the others money to their detriment is beyond me.
Like I tell Alan Cochrane, you can’t lie to yourself.
I was despondent on 19th Sep. Now I am happy, safe in the knowledge that independence is now inevitable and in actual fact always was as soon as the Scottish parliament was re convened.
Westminster can’t afford to give us the powers and they can’t afford not to regardless of May 15 2016 or 2017. It is inevitable.
Hell I might even stick my Saltire back on my car.
@Morag
How dare you! I am not devoted to Craig Murray. 😉 In fact I am not impressed by his writings and, as I have not met him, I dont express an opinion on whether he should be a sponsored candidate for MP.
We weren’t talking about Craig Murray until James brought the subject up. However, he seems determined not to let me discuss anything here without leaping in to defend his hero.
I already explained my reservations and I’m not derailing another thread by going over it all again. If people disagree with me that’s their prerogative. If events prove me wrong I’ll happily admit it. However, it seems quite sinister not to allow any expression of concern on penalty of being called all sorts of names.
@James Caithness
I have met people who are contributors to this site in person.
others have met each other who are contributors to the site in person.
Has anyone met James Caithness in person?
If they have I would be less inclined to be suspicious.
For God’s sake, will some of the many Wings posters I’ve met at the Counting House and the Edinburgh bash and Pacific Quay and Calton Hill (happier days then) and supplied me with the WBBs I wanted to distribute pretty please answer this creep?
But Morag, you are doing yourself no favours.
Just a number of minutes ago you typed “I’m not allowed to question repeated claims that the man who egged Murphy is a mystery who has “disappeared” even though his name and address and background are common knowledge” even although the story of his pleading guilty was reported in The Courier on 4 September 2014 at 4.00pm.
What’s the point of bringing up that which is REALLY common knowledge, having been reported in the MSM, almost two months ago?
And what is you beef with Craig Murray? I would really like to understand.
@Morag
I saw you in the pub in Edinburgh but we were not introduced so though I can affirm your existence I cannot vouch for you 🙁
Ah well, there’s where we differ. I judge people by their writings. 😉 (Which is why I practically revere the ground Stu Campbell walks on, and why I voted for Stewart Hosie as Depute Leader come to that.)
I’ve been deeply unimpressed by Mr. Murray for a good number of years, long before the indyref. And I don’t particularly see why I have to meet him before I can express an opinion about his suitability as an SNP candidate.
I’m also somewhat baffled by the vehemence with which so many people on Wings are keen to jump to his defence. OK, we get it. Some people like him, and can’t spot any glaring warning signals in his writings or persona. Fine, we disagree. I’m not sure why James and others want to force me either to worship with them at the shrine, or give up posting on Wings. Are differences of opinion no longer permitted here?
Piemonteis says:
15 November, 2014 at 12:57 am
@ James Caithness
I didn’t realise we were talking about Craig Murray. We all share some views others don’t agree with, but it doesn’t mean the person we disagree with is not to be trusted. If Morag’s views on the matter are so evidently contrary to yours, the best thing to do is not to bring the subject up with her, because you know it won’t get either of you anywhere.
===================================
Piemonteis – She attacked Craig Murray last Saturday night making accusations. He asked her to provide one piece of evidence to back her accusations up. She then disappeared until tonight.
I say again Morag – lets have that one bit of evidence Mr Murray asked you for.
Oh! and has anyone on here met Morag in person?
@Brian Doonthetoon
I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. There were a bunch? of conspiracy nuts claiming that the egger was a mystery man. You know how Morag is with conspiracy nuts, well she waded in and the nuts and their supporters turned on her. That is what she is complaining of
I think Morag’s being has been confirmed.
BUT, what is it, just one example will do fur noo, that makes him “not of us”?
@James Caithness
Oh! and has anyone on here met James Caithness in person?
Brian, I only brought up the eggman because for some reason some posters were making a big mystery of his identity, and when I pointed out that his identity was common knowledge, I was attacked for saying this.
I’ve explained some issues I have with Craig Murray already and I’m not going back over it all again. Given the hostile response to any criticism in that direction it would obviously be pointless. I’ve expressed my reservations. Nobody is going to take my opinion into account when deciding whether he should be approved as an SNP candidate or adopted for a seat, so we’ll see what happens. If he turns out to be an effective MP who is an asset to the party I’ll happily eat my words.
For some people Independence is for choice of the future, full control over what happens, by the democratic will of the Scottish People – even if we ourselves don’t agree with the majority at times.
Some have reasons that are important to them, like Trident, dislike of NATO, the monarchy. The question is, what is more important to them, Independence or their own cause?
There are also a few bandwagon jumpers who, having jumped on, may well just jump off if it suits them. Perhaps a reason, not just to write a book, but to get it popularised. I expect there are a few who are just on an ego trip.
My guess is we all have different views on things people say or write, according to our perceptions. Me? I trust everyone and next to nobody, I just take one day at a time.
Uh-huh. Kind of like that, all the way.
Morag says:
15 November, 2014 at 1:04 am
Brian, exactly. The eggman’s name and address and background are common knowledge. Even before they were published, our own CameronB revealed his name was Stuart and he had shared a flat with him some years ago.
But for pointing this out to a couple of posters who were repeatedly posting that the egg-thrower was a “mystery man” who had “disappeared”, and that this was something that needed investigating, I was shouted down over an entire thread.
I’ve already explained what disturbs me about Craig Murray. If people don’t see it from that blog of his, and other biographical details, then I’m not going over it yet again. If he turns into an effective SNP MP, I’ll happily eat my words. It seems that the entire readership of Wings is so devoted to him that I’m not even allowed to express my worries, so we’ll just leave it at that.
====================================
Funnily enough Morag – No-one from Kirkcaldy ever saw the eggman before and has not seen him since if fact no-one knows him. He gave his address as High Street, Kirkcaldy at his trial. So close to the YES shop on High Street, Kirkcaldy. So your common knowledge claim is shite.
You have claimed what disturbs you about Mr murray but your have answered his question for you to give evidence to your claims.
Just saying.
Jings, is that the time. I’m never going to be up in time to get my breakfast and the bus into Perth to meet the deadline for the voting papers.
Nicola’s speech tomorrow. Maybe she’ll explain further? Or maybe she won’t and we’ll all have to make it up as we go along and see what happens.
Right, James, you’re getting even more abusive. Who are you? How long have you been posting on Wings? Has anyone met you in person? Can anyone vouch for the amount of campaigning you did during the referendum? Or are you only here to stir up trouble between long-standing posters?
Unfortunately this blog doesn’t have an ignore feature like a forum would have. But I hereby announce that I will not be reading anything James posts in future, so don’t expect me to respond.
@James Caithness
Just saying is fine. Trying to whip up a posse is not
Not been on Wings a good day or so; saw Morag’s name and knew the rest of the thread is dominated by repetitious argument and self-pity from St Sebastian’s sister.
And so it transpires…
Have a good weekend folks.
Hi Morag.
The problem we have on WOS is that is incredibly difficult to easily search all the pages to find previous comments.
I think it’s the way Wordress puts the site together.
So, our older comments are PROBABLY still there but finding them is a whole other story.
I like to think that not withstanding the misunderstandings that happen on this text-based medium, we all have the goal of independence in our sights.
Thus, we may have spats but, really, we’re all singing from the same hymnbook… or whatever…
So, James has got his posse, the equally anonymous and un-met-by-anyone “Grouse Beater”. For whom nothing I ever say will be right.
I was having a perfectly reasonable discussion about the new ruling about membership requirements for adopting WM candidates when “James Caithness” jumped in and started a fight. Or rather re-started one he’d prepared earlier.
So do I just let him carry on with his attack, or counter him? I’m wrong either way, it seems.
Someone said something at the Edinburgh bash that shocked me. That they’d seen people attacking me on Wings and had almost decided never to come back because “if that was how they treat a woman…” I don’t do feminine exceptionalism. If I’m having an argument with someone it doesn’t really matter to me how many X chromosomes they have, or how many I have for that matter. But it seems some people see it differently.
I do notice that arrogant, dogmatic posters with masculine posting names do often seem to go unchallenged though.
Nobody knows the egg man? What crap. From the Herald:
When he was charged the accused said ‘I’d like to apologise to Mr Murphy and for bringing the Yes campaign into disrepute unintentionally’.
Mackenzie, 45, of High Street, Kirkcaldy, pleaded guilty on summary complaint to a charge of assault.
David Cranston, defending, said Mackenzie was a supporter of Scottish independence.
Sheriff Kenneth McGowan ordered Mackenzie to carry out 80 hours of unpaid work on a community payback order.
@ Morag
“I’ve already explained what disturbs me about Craig Murray. If people don’t see it from that blog of his, and other biographical details, then I’m not going over it yet again.”
Please provide a link to this explanation which you have already provided. I’ve been reading this blog for 11 months but haven’t come across your explanation so far. A link will be sufficient.
p.s. I read Craig’s blog most days and enjoy reading it. I have no idea what you think I should “see” simply from reading his blog. Perhaps I am exceptionally dense? Nor do I know what his “other biographical details” are. Please clarify.
Thanks, Brian, I think so too. I think a lot of us are probably still more discombobulated by losing the referendum than we entirely realise. And then I think there are some people here who are actually trying to stir up trouble. New-ish names nobody knows turning nasty.
I find that recently I’m not much inclined to join in the general inconsequential banter. So when I do post, it’s about something I feel quite strongly about, or something (like the conundrum of non-members standing as SNP candidates) that’s exercising my mind. So maybe I’m being pegged as humourless or something.
I don’t mind having spats, but I do mind a lynch mob. If I’m wrong about Craig Murray, that’ll be good, won’t it? And if I’m right at least I’ll be able to say, I told you so. But I don’t see the point in turning another thread into an acrimonious argument about his character, antecedents and propensity for loose-cannon status.
@ handclapping and Morag,
Yes People have met me and YES I canvassed, yes I am an SNP member (from 24th Sept)
Would you like three names. Elaine collier, Lanarkist, Shroders cat.
And Morag i do not consider myself abusive (your the one who called me ”creep”,) I am asking you to state one piece of evidence to back up YOUR abuse of Mt Murray (whom I have attended meetings he has been speaking at) and to which he asked you the same last Saturday.
No-one has said they have met you yet.
Michio Kaku – ‘What is Deja-Vu?’ –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg
I missed all the fun today but thanks to everyone who posted links to the videos of the conference. Unfortunately the BBC video of Nicola’s appointment as party leader is “no longer available”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30011423
Ha ha. Something which happened only a few hours ago is unavailable. Though the Tory election victory of 1992 is miraculously still available from a 2005 BBC news item.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/basics/4393317.stm
A week is a long time in politics, but in Scottish politics an afternoon is an eternity.
I do hate it when Wings threads degenerate into ultimately pointless spats.
There’s plenty of material all over the web about Craig Murray for anyone wanting to make up their minds or glean a little background knowledge. The Wiki entry has a fair shot at being unbiased, and you can go on from there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Murray
Oh, and btw, Morag exists.
Technical question to change the subject:
Could someone please explain to me how to present a quotation from another post as an indented paragraph with a line down the side?
I’m sure it’s very obvious once you know, but I am currently confined to copying and pasting within quotation marks, which is sometimes ambiguous and never as smart-looking.
Thanks.
Oh, and also how do you create links from text (in blue)? The Guardian has a button for it so that it isn’t necessary to type html tags.
crazycat
like that
Its late, just noticed how this thread has gone. James is known to me, campaigned long and is very dedicated to the Yes Campaign.
Met him last week at the SNP meeting.
Let’s not get into factional infighting.
Morag is surely allowed her point of view and the right to express her opinion.
Anyone is also allowed to disagree with that point of view.
We should all be defending the right to freedom of speech and try to be conducive to respectful points of view!
@James Caithness, @Scott Finlayson and @Grouse Beater
Morag was taking part in an interesting, topical and to the point discussion about how the YES Alliance for GE might or might not work with the SNP.
What do you think about how it might work?
Hint: the topic is the SNP and the two new leaders, and the GE 2015, Morag is not the topic, nor is Mata Hari 🙁
@ yesindyref2
Thanks. The Guardian button is called blockquote, so I should have been able to work that out! Your assistance is much appreciated. I’m still working on the badge, by the way.
Looking at the picture at the top of the thread it struck me how natural NS and SH appear. Relaxed and genuine smiles wreathing both their faces. Leaders with real political convictions. Human beings with aspirations for their people and their country.
Contrast and compare with the opposition:
Milliband a zombie like stare, a man without a pulse; Cameron face like a mask, moulded and polished and frozen in mock gravity; Clegg, public school fag; Farage, with all the false bonhomie of a failed antique dealer;
And SLAB’s very own Branch manager: Murphy, unctuous, bronchial, with all the charisma of an undertaker; Davidson, carping voice-over cipher; Willie Rennie?, the charm of a lab rat.
Hollow men and women with no beliefs other than self promotion and self preservation…..We must unite and defeat these political imposters and cast them into the outer darkness that hatched them.
The division and recriminations amongst ourselves are wasted opportunities. We must attack politically and vote out the criminals who are stealing our children’s future. Anything else is selfish self abuse.
Awakened too-early, by daughter going off to tend her horses, before she goes to work, to find a stairheid row going on on Wings.
Children, children, the hours after midnight on a Friday night are not the best for conducting political discourse, let’s hope calmer heads rule this morning.
Agreeing the protocols and making a political alliance work in the six months between now and the General Election will not be easy. It can be done, however, I always feel, in politics, things done in a hurry tend not to be done correctly.
The North British Branch Office of the Labour Party will surely play the: “Only We Can Beat The Tories” line to death between now and polling day. We on here all know this is shite, but, as happened in the Referendum campaign, the combined ranks of the UK mainstream media will be resolutely on-message in promoting this line.
We couldn’t beat that back in October, so we will have to work even-harder to beat it in April and May. At least, this time round, they will have to send their troops out across England and will not be so able to spread their shit over us up here.
There are still a lot of Zombies up here who will, when in that booth, with the pencil poised over the ballot paper, still, in spite of the argument that regardless of the colour of their rosettes, the Westminster parties are all Tories at heart, be unable to help themselves from putting their cross against Labour.
I have never believed the SNP could win 50-plus seats, but I do believe the party can win more than 30. Target the troughers, the time-servers, the slackers, think tactically and constructively and deliver an SNP bloc to Westminster which has the clout to wring concessions from Westminster.
And, while we are at it – we should remember the (script-writer-penned) words of Shir Shean and: “Never Say Never”, to doing a deal with the Blue Tories.
As things stand, the Conservative and Unionist Party offers Scotland a better deal on devolution powers than does the Labour Party. A “confidence and Supply” agreement with them might well bring independence closer than a similat agreement with the Labour Party in what looks increasingly like being a “hung” parliament post-May.
The knowledge that that SNP bloc would not be used to stymie English Votes on English Laws would be attractive to David Cameron and his Etonian chums. They would still need careful watching, but, I suspect Scotland could wring more devo-max (the lower case is deliberate) powers out of them than they could out of a Labour Party, which would still need to use its Scottish members’ votes on English-only issues.
Of course, should the SNP do this, you can bet the Labour Party will come-out with the “Tartan Tories – it’s 1979 all over again” line. I can hear their bleating now.
The next six months promise to be as interesting as the last six have been, with, surely a better outcome.
The main point here is to get the greatest number of indy-supporting MP, no matter what their political label may be. Personally, I’m more leaning towards the SSP, but the SNP is, right now, the best option available to secure a second referendum. The GE 2015 is not about sending SNP members to Westminster, it’s about sending people, whichever their sensibility is, with a mandate to secure a 2nd referendum. In this scope, their lifetime as MP is anyhow obviously limited, since once independence is achieved, their seat at WM will automatically vanish.
‘SNP’ is a mere label, just three letters on a mote of paper. What matters is not how the people are registered, but what ideas they advocate and what they do. There will be time later for a true campaign in the future Scottish parliament election.
Hi Morag, hope to see you again soon.
james Caithness, I along with many many other Wingers can and will vouch for our Morag.
I and my family have met her in person on more than one occasion.
Morag has a brain the size of a planet and nearly always gives us food for thought. Let her say her piece, ask questions – Morag will answer with what she knows, with integrity and honesty. Share what you know and believe and hopefully everyone will benefit from a genuine debate.
Folk on Wings have pretty good Trolldar and you will hear the trit trot of wee hooves if there is any nonsense.
ps. Morag, I did hear through the grapevine that the guy who let fly with the egg regretted the trouble it seemed to cause. But it also exposed JM for his dire lack of statesmanship (again). Also, until the egg thrower came forward, it was fair enough for speculation that the No campaign would stoop low enough to egg their own man. Look at how low they did actually stoop to scare and to bribe.
I think the statement about utilising non SNP is really about waiving the usual rule of holding SNP membership. I think the statement was clear that if the rule is adhered to, we would miss out on the new talent around, and those who may be holding back because they only want a platform for Indy.
My reading of the announcement is that you could have joined today but be put forward as a PPC, and put yourself to a local constituency, who have the right to grill, then vote on proposing and putting forward to the SNP machine for vetting etc.
We were lucky, we heard our PPC address our branch, and he is a long time, experienced SNP person, so happy to propose him to HQ.
Lanarkist-you speak good sense
Morag & I were dissecting what was being said & not said by Nicola last night when James Caithness decided to attack. All that did was drive me to my bed as I’d had a couple of drinks & decided not to write a response that would make things worse. I come to WOS because
a)I feel welcome (even if I am English-blame my parents not me)
b)Posters can & do present alternative opinions that make you think again
c) There are few personal attacks
d) You can put your thoughts out there just to test what you’re thinking without being shot down in flames (usually)
Morag said she didn’t trust Craig as she saw him as a loose cannon.She was seeing him as others will see him. He would be a gift to Westminster MP’s and become an obvious target for them. I’ve no doubt that he is an honourable man but he did help to shore up a dishonourable government for a long time till he could stand it no more & decided to speak out. For speaking out he has to be applauded-the man did good in that respect!
I like the man from his writings & wish him well but I also know that he would be a loose cannon & target. We have no idea what is in his background (but covered by the Official Secrets Act) that may come back to haunt him or any party that he represents. Morag was urging caution & was right to do so. This was a common sense stance to take & I’m sure the SNP will take great care in vetting but how can you adequately vet when so much has to remain unsaid.
Last time I looked we had freedom of speech (they haven’t cut that yet have they)but last night felt like playground bullying & we don’t accept that from children so why is it acceptable here?
I’m not siding with anyone on this but Morag did echo my thoughts & I was grateful that she said it. I knew that I was too new here to say it myself. I can also see why Craig was upset but that is between the two of them to sort out & certainly not for us here to gang up on anyone.Personally, I don’t do gangs nor do I do groupthink. I come to my own conclusions & that informs what I say and do.
One thing I do know is that I could never stand for a seat as I could never toe a party line even if my life depended on it. Too much of a rebel I guess.
Lochside
Excellent post.
Great comparatives.
Independence is bigger than politics and above politics,
but will be achieved through politics.
The Independence movement is not ‘owned’ by any group.
For Independence, we will have to stay together,
even though we are many and different.
Unity in diversity is vital.
Differences of opinion must be accepted without judgement,
accusation or prosecution.
Be united in our common belief in Independence for Scotland.
United we stand; divided we fall.
The enemy will do everything to divide us.
We must not help him.
But this is not easy, as recent pages testify.
May those who come to this site
see this unity for Independence in every visit.
100% AGREE @ Manandboy.
lollysmum @9:59am
Well said!
Lochside says:
15 November, 2014 at 5:47 am
Looking at the picture at the top of the thread it struck me ……….
………. that Nicola had just won the star prize on Bullseye.
Morag: I think a lot of us are probably still more discombobulated by losing the referendum than we entirely realise.
Speak for yourself. I object to being told how I feel or what I must be thinking, and then read troll-like opinion posted on a social website.
I think there are some people here who are actually trying to stir up trouble. New-ish names nobody knows turning nasty.
That will be why I received an abusive e-mail to stay off Wings? Do you think your little dark asides are clever?
the equally anonymous and un-met-by-anyone “Grouse Beater”.
Another remark worthy of any full-time troll. Stuart knows who I am, and who my wife is, so enough of the crapology.
Why argue the ‘egg man’ incident ad nauseam all over the site yet here plead you are not free to discuss the egg man incident? It’s self-serving, and grand-standing.
Wings is a community of different viewpoints. I don’t see the need for an unelected head girl to remonstrate with anybody who, in her opinion, steps out of line.
Man and Boy: Independence is bigger than politics and above politics, but will be achieved through politics.
Hear, hear!
Grouse Beater, I was speaking for myself. I thought that was clear. Everything isn’t about you, no matter how much you bully me.
This is the second time you’ve mentioned an email. I have no idea who you are. I have no idea what your email address is. I have no idea what you are talking about.
You were the one who started putting my name in inverted commas as if I wasn’t who I say I am. I think that’s a hypocritical stance from someone who posts under a pseudonym.
If you want to chip in with snide and derogatory bullying every time I post, I can’t stop you. But I think people can draw their own conclusions.
I would like to see a clear distinction drawn between domestic policy and constitutional policy by the creation of a constitutional manifesto.
The constitutional manifesto would, duh!, deal only with constitutional matters which are independent from those domestic policies which may vary depending on political hue of the government of the day.
As a minimum it would create a framework which defined the different mechanisms by which independence could be procured. The procedures and timeframes they would require.
It would also have structural planning.
For government structure. Electoral methodology, number of representatives, voting system, head of state,a mechanism for expertise engagement at both the draft legislation and final scrutiny stage. A legislation review period.
For civil service structure, government departments, revenue collection system, accountability, transparency, welfare distribution system.
It should be quite possible a basic transitional constitutional manifesto like the above, could be drawn up which most if not all pro-indy parties could sign up to.
This would achieve two main things.
First, it would smooth the way for some kind of alliance/pact between pro indy parties.
Second, it would force the hand of London on the issue of self determination for Scotland. For example, even if they were they to denounce it and refuse any mechanism by which Scotland might become independent, at least then that intent would be out in the open. Otherwise they will be more than happy to say nothing on the matter until it suits them and probably after ‘legal rulings’ by the UK Supreme Court and other ‘constitutional’ shenanigans.
Grouse Beater at 1137,
Well said, Very well said. I too am fed up with what is going on here. It is clear as day.
This site is called ‘Wings over Scotland, NOT ‘Morag over Scotland’.
STOP this in-fighting. I don’t agree with everything Morag writes, but I also disagree with the opinions of others.
By all means disagree but don’t get personal. I’m just turned 70 and relying a lot on people who post here to get me Independence before I die. STOP this in-fighting – you are playing into the hands of theunionists!
Grouse Beater
agreed, the main thing is that we send an unequivocal message to WM, “we are scotland, don’t mess with us”.
defacto snp candidates and all.
Robert Louis, I’ve had enough of this. Whenever I post anything these days, Grouse Beater or one or two others promptly dive in and attack me, usually dragging the discussion off topic. Now, apparently, I’m not even allowed to defend myself.
Well I won’t be bullied, so chuck it.
Better Together? Of course they are! The cynical, stupid No campaign’s reward for “victory” is to get Alex Salmond down at Westminster – the best politician of his generation. I bet they didn’t reckon with that outcome, did they? Alex “Fawkes” at the centre of the lion’s den. No actual fireworks needed this time, because caught between Salmond and the exposure of Westminster’s corruption and horrific child sex abuse then the whole lot could come crashing down. I bet they will rue the day that their slimy campaign attempted to manipulate a nation.
Anne Begg MP might also rue the day when she got all cosy with the National Front up here during the referendum – Better Together with that lot? She should have handed in her resignation at the same time – it would have saved her the humiliation she is going to get come May. http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-best-of-friends/
Morag,
Ach, you play the martyr well. Boo hoo. You dish it out all the time, but cannot take it.
just gie it a rest.
Like I said, this site is called ‘Wings over Scotland’ NOT ‘Morag over Scotland’.
Alex hasn’t even said definitely that he’ll stand for Westminster, but it really looks as if he’s going to do it. I didn’t think he would, when it was first suggested, but the mood music is getting pretty loud.
I don’t know how he can stand the thought of going back there again, and Moira is a saint if she agrees to it.
Robert Louis, I can take an argument. All you’re offering is abuse, just because I have a different opinion from you. Give it up.
(Morag – (what a naughty bunch of boys further up the thread) be lovely to see you again next w/e, details on O/T)
Lollysmum
Good posting, and it puts it in a good way too.
There are loose cannons, mavericks, who could happily stand as independent candidates, but never as part of a significant mainstream party. Obvious examples now are Sillars, Canavan, Sheridan, (Galloway).
I checked out Craig Murray, and I’d put him in that category. I too would have to stand as an Independent, it wouldn’t be long before my own party disavowed me. I’d suggest with all due respect, the Rev as one in that category too. To be a part of any party you have to do some conformng, there are limits to how far you can go outside the party line. Some of us don’t recognise limits. F*** that for a game of soldiers!
And yet clearly individuals have a lot to add, but as individuals, not recognised parts of the “machine”. It’s why while the efforts of the likes of Rev are obviously well appreciated, they can never be openly recognised by formal parties or groups.
Grouse Beater (and Robert Louis and others)
There’s absolutely no doubt it comes across as bullying Morag. One person makes some criticism of Morag personally, and the rest of the wolf pack jump in teeth bared.
Well, keep it for the Unionists. I’ve seen postings on other fora from you, and you can be well strident in your responses. Fine, we all are at times, but why pick on one of your own?
Morag
Just ignore them totally. You don’t have to defend yourself, it’s obvious from other postings – and mine – that people appreciate your postings. Just ignore those who attack you personally, rather than debate your actual points. And conspiracies? Ignore them!
And if anyone wants to jump on me for this posting, be my guest, make my day.
A wee word about schisms and who is fit to serve the party & who aint.
Remember the lesson of the Battle of Dunbar when a flock of Edinburgh ministers descended on General Leslie’s army and set about winnowing the godly from the ungodly, 3,000 men were sent home as being unfit to perform the Lord’s work in the coming battle.
Cromwell apparently knew the Lord rather better & knocked seven bells out of the Scots as a result.
@ yesindyref2
Likewise-good post. Yours actually answered a couple of posts higher up the thread where posters were miffed because neither Alex nor Nicola acknowledged Wings publicly.
You can bet they read Wings because Rev tends to respond to events far quicker than anyone else online. His political antennae are finely tuned & his network of contacts alert him(perhaps unintentionally) when something is in the offing. Imagine you are in a politicians shoes and a potentially sticky subject comes up that you need to quickly get a handle on to inform your party line.
So where are they going to look for clues to how they should respond-certainly not MSM/BBC-not quick enough & most definitely biased.Online sources where readers quickly jump into dissecting subjects but because we all have different backgrounds, different life experiences etc each of us looks at that subject from a slightly different perspective which brings out nuances that probably aren’t available in most groupings online.Everyone here brings something unique to WOS-their individuality & own opinion. That is priceless in itself but when seen from a politician’s perspective its a ‘rapid turnaround vox pop’ from a group of very intelligent people with a common aim-seeing Scotland become independent.
For AS & NS this place can confirm their own thinking or quickly bring out the different points that their attackers might seek to bring up. I would also class WOS as an education resource enabling people to learn from other posters experiences.
So let’s face it-WoS has earned a reputation-Stu definitely doesn’t toe a party line but instead ploughs his own furrow as do the posters here. And yes, Stu would fit into the same category as Craig, Tommy S & others-why? Because they are loose cannons, unpredictable, rebellious & don’t thrive well when confined within boundaries imposed by others.
Politicians aren’t going to admit that they read Wings-that would attract derision from any opposition because we’re all conspiracy freaks on here but there I would beg to differ-WOS readers tend to look outside the normal parameters of mainstream opinion.I would suggest that politicians would be seriously remiss if they didn’t take a view on the opinions of such a diverse group as Wingers.
As for Craig-I know that I’ve seen & done some things in previous employment that I can never talk about due to Official Secrets Act as I’m sure many others on here have done if they’ve ever been in the services, police, civil service etc.
It genuinely was a tough choice for me to vote for, I ended up voting for Keith Brown as I thought he has done a very good job as transport minister and is well respected within Holyrood
I felt Stuart Hosie only came to prominence due to the referendum campaign and whilst a great orator and shrewd operator, I didn’t know enough about his experience as he is mostly based in Westminster.
Angela, I felt, just didn’t have that clout like Nicola Sturgeon has or dare I say it, Ruth Davidson (I might not agree with her policies but she sure knows how to handle a debate till Alex Salmond throws down a one liner tae pit her gas at peep).
3 Worthy candidates and I hope that Stuart does a good job as deputy leader
indyref2,
Sorry, I fundamentally disagree with you. Morag is many many times happy to dish out bad comments on other people, but plays the victim when it gets directed back. I have watched on over the last two years, as time and again novice posters are put ‘in their place’ with her harsh responses.
I had bitten my tongue, but I’m just sick of it.
There is a fundamental difference between disagreeing with a person’s viewpoint, and making comments loaded with innuendo about a person – a recent (but recurring example) being her frequent and lengthy loaded comments about Craig Murray. Therein lies the problem.
Morag, like many people on here is well educated, so there is just NO excuse for the harsh way in which she chooses to address people on this site.
Morag at 1246pm,
It really is the height of hypocrisy for you to reference abuse, given the verbal onslaught you launch each and every time anybody mentions Craig Murray. I have yet to meet anybody in the indy movement who thinks the way you do.
You regularly dish it out, but don’t like when it is directed at you. My highlighting of that truth, is not abuse.
Ach, I’m outta here.
Morag: Everything isn’t about you, no matter how much you bully me.
Once more you project your failings onto another poster.
You are well able to argue an idea under the table until it dies of verbal haranging or dehydration, but here on a site that is shared your unstoppable certitude brooks no regard for others using the site.
I repeat what I said before, if you have the courage of your convictions and don’t already have a blog, create one and attract all you wish to discuss ideas, flaky SNP candidates, and obvious eggmen, at length, and for as long as you wish. You will find it invigorating, and indeed might attract more adherents to your point of view.
Wings is not my, nor your, personal loudhailer.
Don’t know if anyone’s posted this link at WOS already but Alecsammin’s speech from yesterday is now on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as7TdgkHDg4
Am I the only one to see who benefits from our bickering?
Meanwhile, back in the real world, I was hugely enthused by the Angus/Nichola motion – I hope they take it as far as they can and that local SNP constituency organisations focus on how we can get as near to 59 seats as possible.
Another brilliant speech from Alex, the future first President of the Republic of Scotland
Yay! my MP won the deputy job. Stewart came campaigning in the referendum with us in RIC just as an ordinary pair of boots on the ground. I chatted to him on a few occasions and liked him more than his quick and obviously personally written replies to my occasional emails as a constituent. I have great confidence in him as more than just a safe pair of hands. He takes no prisoners in the House either and he came across well in the conference interview I saw. He does a good line in listening to you as well.
I’m not a party member so didn’t get to vote but my determination to vote SNP has certainly not been dented in any way. In fact I’ve been firmed up and encouraged.
Hi Muscleguy.
Any reason why you (and other Wingers in Dundee) didn’t sign up for the minibus through to the WOS get-together in Glasgow next week?
We had to cancel it due to lack of support.
Cancel the minibus, that is. The get-together is still happening…
@Muscleguy –
If you haven’t seen this, I’m sure you’ll enjoy it – Hosie stopping Jacob Rees-Mogg to ask a question (at 7 mins 26 secs). Fantastic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-k4q-mbqNk
Robert Louis
Fair enough. I started my posting “career with a Demon TAM early 90s, starting in the polite newuser group, through the more boisterous demon.service, then out into the wild world of alt.*.*. Then posted back in newuser to help new users, and one of the self-appointed tasks of regulars there was to police flames directed at newbies.
It used to be a golden almost unbreakable rule not to flame newbies, so I see where you’re coming from.
Paula, I can’t find anything definite in OT, unless it’s lost in the mass of random YouTube links.
Sorry. I may not come. I’d like to, but I feel I’m being hounded off Wings for things I haven’t done and it’s not very nice.
I haven’t accused Craig Murray of anything.
I have explained why I’m very uncomfortable about the idea of him standing as an SNP candidate for Westminster, which is a rather different matter.
I haven’t sent Grouse Beater an email.
I haven’t flamed any newbies.
I haven’t the slightest interest in the bloody egg-man, other than noting that his identity is known.
I have tried to discuss other things here, but been constantly badgered by James Caithness and Grouse Beater wanting to bait me.
I’m fed up with it. I’m coming to the Hydro. I don’t know if I want to meet anyone else. Go and brown-nose Craig Murray, the lot of you.
Morag
My posting about flames at newbies was supposed to be a general one, not directed at you. Looking at it I can see I didn’t word it very well, I should have added “I have no idea if Morag is guilty or innocent of that, I haven’t noticed any, and am not a regular (though I have been a bit since the ref)”. My apologies if it didn’t come out right.
As far as this thread is concerned you’re absolutely right, out of nowhere Caithness came with his thing about Murray which was another thread entirely, and Grouse just jumped on the bandwagon, as did the agent otherwise known as Mr Mata Hari! These were unjustified personal abuse, with no relevance to your previous interesting postings about the SNP / joint candidature.
I’m going to the Hydro next week with son, probably to the YES bar / Horseshoe, no idea if I’ll make contact as I like to be unknown 😉
Looking forward to it, if I’m doing this political stuff, I might as well go the whole hog, though the £20 put me off trying to get to the conference. Funds are, errr, low.
Och Morag,
You typed,
I haven’t the slightest interest in the bloody egg-man, other than noting that his identity is known.”
But, you raised the premise that that he was unknown, when his identity had already been disclosed in the MSM. You did type,
Brian, exactly. The eggman’s name and address and background are common knowledge. Even before they were published, our own CameronB revealed his name was Stuart and he had shared a flat with him some years ago.”
I’m finding it uncomfortable to support your premises, when one post you say that the eggman is anonymous, then in a subsequent post, you say he is well known.
I am confused…
Brian
Re-read Morag’s posting, and check out the context, she was replying to Caithness’s unprovoked attack, just above it. You’re wrong, I’m afraid, you misunderstood her at the time. Sorry, her meaning was quite clear to me. She’s been continually abused for days, weeks.
I have to say that I find some of the personalized spats on Wings tedious. I whiz past them now.
Unfortunately I think that good things get buried in the scrapping. I particularly liked and wholeheartedly agree with the piece by AuldA so I’m repeating it here.
I was at SNP Conference and attended a lot of the fringe events trying to crystallize what my opinion was. This is about the best distillation of the subject I have seen yet. What I do dislike is the Westminster style that requires blind devotion to the Party which I think has led Labour to the unhappy position it is in now. I think it allows people with dictatorial tendencies and a desire for power to get into leadership positions. I’d like SNP to avoid that trap if they can, and I will work to that end.
Yes indi ref2: Grouse just jumped on the bandwagon
You and Morag are determined to avoid the issue.
My ‘grouse’ is threads monopolised as if they belong to one person and their clique.
My solution? Get a blog.
Using Wings as a personal blog invariably excludes others not part of the ‘in group.’ Grossly extended disputes from in-house cliques determine the standard of discussion and contribution which in this instance, for all those reasons and more, drop markedly when one person takes over.
When to stop? How long is a piece of string?
As far as the number of contributions to a topic are considered, I have no idea. Intelligent posters know the difference. There is an inner discipline that warns they have stated all they can, repetition of their own opinion and condemnation of all others convinces only of their belligerence and lack of tolerance.
And that said, I shall take my own counsel.
My point made, made by others long before my penny’s worth, echoed by others since, means this is my last plea.
Ian: If you haven’t seen this, I’m sure you’ll enjoy it – Hosie stopping Jacob Rees-Mogg to ask a question (at 7 mins 26 secs). Fantastic.
Superb! Thanks, Ian.
Hi yesindyref2.
You’re right enough. The comments were rolling along until Mr Caithness interjected with his comments about Morag. And it was he who mentioned Craig Murray, which was totally off-topic.
And I did misinterpret Morag’s point about the eggman.
Sorry Morag.
8=(
Thanks, Brian, I really appreciate that.
(I only mentioned the egg-man as an example of another occasion where I’d said something pretty innocuous only to be piled on by the same people.)