The unhappy victors
Followers of our Twitter account will know that we’ve highlighted on many occasions since September the bizarrely angry attitude of much of the victorious side in the independence referendum. Despite having won, commentators and activists on the No side have undertaken a series of bitter and miserable articles and rants seemingly less than delighted at having come first in a two-horse race.
We’ve been a bit of a loss to work out why. They may have only cleared the bar by 5%, but it’s a reasonably comfortable margin if not exactly an easy cruise over the finishing line (if you’ll forgive the mixed metaphor). And embarrassingly we needed some help from one of the thicker sub-species of BritNat troll to finally work it out.
They may have started appearing just a few days after the vote, but tweets like the one above – trying to imply, for reasons best known to themselves, a 2:1 result when it was really 11:9 – are still commonplace from some of the dimmer bulbs on the No side, and have even been echoed by some politicians who should know better.
The argument is that with a turnout of 85%, the 45% tallied by Yes actually only represents a little over a third of the total Scottish electorate. To be precise, the Yes vote was 37.9% of everyone in Scotland registered to vote. But the corollary of that is that if you’re going to make such a silly case, you also have to calculate the other side as a percentage of the total electorate, and that gives you a No vote of 46.7%.
Alert readers will have noticed something about that number: it’s less than 50%.
There’s a reason that only really galactically stupid people (example above) talk about vote shares in the context of the entire electorate, rather than those who voted. It’s because everyone who didn’t exercise their right to vote has given tacit consent to whichever party ends up the biggest. They have, in effect, said “We’re happy with whoever the rest of you pick”.
So in 2011, only 28% of the entire Scottish electorate were sufficiently opposed to the SNP having a second term of government to go out and vote for anyone else. In other words, they had at least the tacit support of a whopping 72% of the country.
And by the same yardstick, however much we might not like the Conservative-led government at Westminster, the Tories (even without their Lib Dem flunkies) have at least the tacit support of 58% of the UK electorate – the 23% who actually voted for them and the 35% who didn’t bother to vote for anyone else.
What we learned last September, then, was that even on referendum day 53.3% of Scots – a majority – were at a minimum happy for the country to be independent if that’s what enough other people wanted. With the entire establishment and media on its side, along with 300 years of shared history, and despite quite literally promising a global apocalypse if that history didn’t continue, the Union still couldn’t persuade half of the people of Scotland to come out and vote for it.
Now, that’s NOT to say that the Yes side really won. The figures cut both ways, and 62% of Scots were also perfectly happy to stay in the Union. But knowing that less than half of Scotland is sufficiently attached to the UK to go out and put a cross in a box once every three centuries may go a considerable distance towards explaining why the ostensibly successful No campaign is still so antsy and grumpy.
I believe the unionists call it ‘settled will’ Stu.. 🙂
Entirely plausible theory. On the other hand, the sad cases in the 55% may just be sad cases. Let’s go halfers…
This habit of counting those who don’t vote as being against the SNP/devolution/independence has been going on for decades. At least since the 1979 devolution referendum and the 40% rule – which might be where the habit started. Not just elections but opinion polls as well, but seldom – never? – used in reverse. Of course, counting the votes of people who didn’t actually vote as votes for you is the stuff of tin pot republics – or Ruritanian monarchies.
No didn’t win the “war”. They simply bought more time in a “rearguard battle” and they know it!
Hence the anger.
😀
I think they are angry because they know the vote was secured by lies and mendacity. There will be another vote. They have to win every time.
Fairly sure labour took the country to war on 30 odd percent of the electorate if you go by the sentiments above.
“But knowing that less than half of Scotland is sufficiently attached to the UK to go out and put a cross in a box once every three centuries may go a considerable distance towards explaining why the ostensibly successful No campaign is still so antsy and grumpy.”
– and in particular, David Cameron, who just can’t get back on his game since September 19th.. Not forgetting either, Her Majesty, who must have been close to Elizabethan over the purring episode.
It remains the case that the No reaction still doesn’t fit the result.
Like winning a bet on the one dog you didn’t feed the pies to.
No wonder they are worried. They know they lost the intellevtual argument spectacularly and have to rely on mundane establishment loos. The momentum is with us and they know it.
It is a fact that over half of the electorate didn’t actually declare for the Union. Yes, I’m sure they would have felt happier with >50% in population terms.
However, I would also suggest they are ‘so antsy and grumpy’ because they know full well what they had to do to win in terms of votes cast. No need to list it all again, but suffice to say they realise they inflicted huge damage on their beloved Union, just to preserve it. Time will tell whether that damage was actually fatal. And, every Unionist understands this.
Turn the logic round. If Yes had succeeded by adopting the tactics of BetterTogether, would WE really feel happy to have achieved the greater number of votes? Realistically, does anyone believe we would have moved forward to Independence on the back of lies, fearmongering and false promises? I suspect it might have destroyed the Independence movement! Well, those very tactics might yet be proven to have destroyed the Union.
O/T Quality viewing tomorrow night with two great Scottish lasses!
Women for Indy with Jeane Freeman & Elaine C Smith
Tuesday, January 13th, 2015 at 7:30 PM on IndependenceLive
Coffee, tea and chat at the Edinburgh North & Leith Common.
The reason they are so unhappy and angry with us, the Yes voters, is simply because they know Scotland will be independent, probably in their lifetime.
No campaign is still so antsy and grumpy.
We have a radiant solution to that,40 + SNP MPs on the green benches,big S mile, s lads n lasses, we know you,ll go the distance & back for Scotland.
My Dad’s dead but he would’ve voted Yes, how about that rule, i would’ve had his proxy, that is unless somebody else used it first, i’ve heard that can happen, some woman told me that, she worked in some commission or other, it seems you got a few quid from the UK Guv if you signed up, could be wrong but i bet some people are thinking that now, you know, the ones who registered turned up and were disallowed from voting coz their dopplegangers already voted. Still, you put a cross here, you put a cross there it all goes in same pile anyway, WHY WORRY
We could draw some parallels with certain football supporters here. They’re not only happy to see their own side win. They love to see the other lot humiliated. A lot of Britnats are just raging that that hasn’t happened here.
Onwards and upwards folks. We’ve taken a tumble, but we will win.
Begs the question, how many of those No voters plus the non voters in the indy-ref will bother to vote in GE15, i suspect a lot of No’s and non’s will not vote. In comparison i suspect a high percentage of the 45% of yes voters will vote add in a few No to indy yes to more powers, and a sprinkling of non indy voters, and it all adds up to a gubbing for Labour in Scotland this GE. Looking forwards to seeing how they spin those GE15 figures..
It’s how they achieved that 55% that bothers them.
They know that the use of the media, especially the bbc, propaganda machine along with the constant scaremongering, threats and blackmail helped them achieved that figure and they are the ones that are unsettled by it.
I honestly believed that the BT side thought that YES was only going to achieve something in the 20%-30% at best margin and now that a return of 45% was registered it has now turned into the “settled will” or the “overwhelming majority”
They are still very afraid, but they’re hoping Murphy can do something about it and put us back in our box.
The truth is that 50% of the country, today as I speak, wants to be independent and to withdraw from the current union. The number will grow as the young come of age and the old die off, as social media replaces corporate media. The movement is one-way and it is towards indy. We are just a bit more sightful and can clearly see the union is a bankrupt cesspit and heading for a crash… stop the world, Scotland wants out [of the union], to rephrase the words of Winnie Ewing.
Yes voters are the nurse and the man is Scotland:
‘The red-haired little nurse came from the west coast of Scotland and some of her family had “the sight.” Perhaps, dimly, she saw a picture of a man walking up a road on a night in September and thereby saving a human being from a terrible death…’
Agatha Christie, “Towards Zero”
I believe they’re just a shower of negative, small minded, cannae dae it people who were frightened out of their wits at the thought of having to stand on their own two feet. Hence the reason they are so bitter towards us.
Some of the more Bitter and Twisted No voters seem to be having trouble coming to terms with the aftermath of the referendum.
Yes voters have issues with Westminster control, nothing more, nothing less. We want to decide our own future.
Scotland and its politics has been travelling in a different direction from Westminster and the Unionist Parties for some years now. They blew their last chance with the derisory Smith Commission offering. Our destination is Independence and there is no turning back, no ifs, buts or maybe’s.
@ Manandboy Memories Like winning a bet on the one dog you didn’t feed the pies to.
trouble is ma elder brother fed 6 pies tae slow the dug doon tae get better odds on its next outing ( armadale ) the fecker won,he wiz greetin awe nite aboot the cost o the pies pmsl.
Fascinating points on UKOK unionism and BBC style cringing. Also a lot of CiF very creepy red and blue Tory britnats jump about with hysterical glee at NOT Scottish oil prices dropping too and always leaving out Scotland wouldn’t have got near our £1.5 trillion North Sea oil reserves until early next year, at the earliest.
You have to wonder if Canada went mental UKOK style after Quebec referendum but somehow I doubt very much. Once we get devo-max, we’ll be away for good.
Grumpiness will abound until the completion of the bayoneting.
I prefer to see it this way:
No – 2,001,926
Yes- 1,617,989
Difference = 383,937
But from the 19th we’ve been fed 55%/45% deliberately.
I suppose it looks more convincing whereas the numbers don’t fit into the “won convincingly” guff we are repeatedly fed.
800,000 Postal votes?
3 years of fear, smear and lies.
Millions of errors on the electoral registers (now being dealt with).
NAH, lets just stick to 55%/45% – we were soundly gubbed.
😉
Ha, the Rev’s analysis allows me to articulate why I thought Russell Brand, and other anti-voting pundits also, is such a dork.
To not vote is explicitly a tacit approval of whoever gets first past the post.
In Scotland we can choose not to vote for Tory Tweedledee or Tory Tweedledumber.
Elsewhere I wish the Greens were in a more popular and stronger position.
manandboy:It remains the case that the No reaction still doesn’t fit the result.
Very true,in fact.what really should be getting the NO camp is the fact that support for independence has never been higher,it’s out of the box and won’t go back in.
When I moved to Scotland over a decade ago, I often read ‘there’s not appetite for independence’ or ‘less than 30% support’ in the press. In 2014 a grassroots campaign converts the ‘no appetite’ to nearly 45% and that was a huge achievement. YES lost but they projected a positive vision for Scotland and managed to have a lot of fun in the process.
As others have said above it is because they know the result was not won fair and square thus they know that all they have done is stem the tide.
Negativity was all the unionists had during the referendum. Negativity is all they have today.
absolutely spot on rev.
no wonder the other side are in such a hurry to ‘move on’, before their ‘victory’ melts away.
Ashcroft UK National Poll, 9-11 January: CON 34%, LAB 28%, LDEM 8%, UKIP 16%, GRN 8%.
Scotland:
48% SNP
24% Lab
14% Con
8% Green
4% Lib
3% UKIP
Clootie says:
“No didn’t win the “war”. They simply bought more time”
Aye, and I think some of the anger can be attributed to their knowing the time they’ve bought is limited. The question is can they fuck us completely in time or will we escape?
Agree completely Stu.
The numbers that NO didn’t persuade & those who didn’t bother to vote means that WM is uncomfortable with the win because they now have to cope with a region where at least half the population doesn’t believe a word they say & there’s a strong suspicion in WM that the figure is well in excess of half the population.
To make it worse they are also hearing about those who regretted voting NO since the vote & would go YES next time.
All they’ve done with their machinations is bought themselves some time till the next indyref. In the meantime all Scotland has to do is wait for there to be evidence of lack of democratic voice & carry on the way they are currently. That ensures that even more voters become Yessers. Once NS has two elections with a clear mandate for supporting another push for yes then it’s game on. As she said-the people will decide when the time is right not the politicians.
Meanwhile we have to keep gathering the evidence folks.Someone has to do it & it might as well be us.
Love to see the number of folk from Retirement and Care Homes who found a proxy last Sep and will no doubt use them again in May
Heed tracker says
Once we get devo-max, we’ll be away for good.
Spot on
That’s why wm refused the question on the ballot, is why they are worried not just about the electoral mandate the snp could have after the ge but also the possibility of a hung parliament forcing them to concede to the snp a devo max which England agrees with, (no more subsides and automatic evel, they believe their own propaganda)
There is all to lay for. Round 2 is here a lot sooner than expected, hence the long unionist faces
Did Judas after betraying his friendship/love of Jesus to the Roman establishment for personal gain not start to hate himself and everything that reminded him of his treachery and such was his self-disgust/opprobrium that he did hang himself from a Cercis tree.
Just sayin.
@Stoker
I prefer to half the difference + one = 191,969 which would have given victory to Yes if these folk did not switch in the last week.
That really shows how close it was – and not “the settled will” of 2/3 of the population.
I have come across this Unionist argument before.
As Stu points out only 46.7% voted for the Union – hardly a ringing endorsement which is something I like to highlight at every opportunity.
Excellent point, Stu, and one I find myself making time and again. The only difference is you’ve put it all rather better.
Cue the same gloating folk mosning ehen this comes in:
“Fury as Tories plan 40% strike rule”
The Charles Moore article referenced above by the Rev is not just miserable, it’s hateful. In it, he compares the SNP and, by implication, the Yes movement to a date rapist.
Just ask a statistician how they would gross up to the total population of eligible voters. I suspect they would break the proportions by age band and weight the numbers accordingly.
Alternatively, they would just allocate the proportions who voted to the result which would mean that around 45% of eligible voters voted yes, and around 55% eligible voting saddos voted no.
Just my 2% of a pounds worth.
Have a good evening
That naw-bag stole my handle!!!
The lengths the NO side have gone to recalculate the result of the referendum – they have practically invented a new branch of mathematics – speaks to a deep insecurity and lack of confidence on their part in their case for the Union.
They are rattled, the trend of support for independence is ever upward.
O/T
Here is what Eds’ Tory allies think of his Labour branch (I thought it was an unwarranted attack on patriotic Jim when I saw the headline)….
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2905990/ANDREW-PIERCE-Whoops-Red-Ed-picks-serial-loser-job.html
Using this upside down logic – Tories are ruling Scotland with 10.68% of the electorate vote in 2010. That will be OK then for UKOK. No democratic deficit here – just move on.
On the Ashcroft poll – Labour UK are taking a big dive. I think that will be the outcome of the Murphy / Mcternan effect starting to kick home in England.
AND SNP still miles ahead. Go Murphy – you are doing great up here and destroying the Labour vote in England at the same time – what a political genius!
Slab MPs – Don’t Panic – DON’T PANIC !
It was a very sad day when the 55% of scotland were to stupid and to thick who voted to stay in this un-equal union.
Our people need to be lead out of the darkness and into the light.
@ Hoss,
Oh, i know, that’s how i like to quote the numbers, especially when you also quote, at the same time, the previously unheard of record smashing 800,000 postal votes.
And with the addition of a constant 3-year campaign of fear, smear and lies, along with the millions of “errors” on the electoral registers – it throws more than a very heavy shadow over this thorough thrashing we all apparently experienced.
They know they lost – we just can’t prove it.
That thought keeps me sane.
😉
Came across my first no-voter-who’s-now-voting-yes on a flight to Milan on Boxing Day. Happy Christmas I said to myself.
The real opportunity for the Greens and the SSP comes in 2016.
And the real opportunity for Scotland.
If things are played sensibly we could achieve 100 independence supporting MSPs in the Scottish parliament.
The list system offers the huge opportunity for Greens and SSP candidates to replace the Labour, Tory and LibDem on it.
At present polling levels the SNP will win nearly all the Westminster Scottish seats. We need the vocal support of the Greens and the SSP in support of SNP to keep up this level.
Their reward if they do so and we prevail is for us to return the compliment in the 2016 Scottish Election and make sure that Allan Grogan for instance gets the reward his courage deserves
It’s because they know the win wasn’t really a win, it was fear, it was the elite straining to enlist all possible aid to push their message of doom, it was downright abuse of anyone daring to be positive about the case for Independence and it was a bloody good effort of all those individuals and groups who tried their hardest to counteract such a tirade against they YES movement. However, eyes have been opened and will not close again, opinions have been garnished with facts and verifiable evidence, those who won have really lost because the game is up in some respects and each of us are intent on ensuring that the truth will out. I know I will be spreading the message and it certainly won’t be advocating that which has gone before, it is advocating the new Scotland that has seen a resurgent SNP, Green Party and SSP and the emergence of WFI and all the other good things to have come out our National awakening (though I know many still sleep or are well served by the bad dream we wish to leave behind), I for one intend to keep pushing and showing the naysayers for what they are (with mucho help from articles on wings etc). Allez!
I saw a clip on Business for Scotland where the Unionist representative came over as a bullying old fashioned school master type, screaming that the BfS rep lost and should get over it! And it struck me that if you were to apply transactional analysis to the conversation, you could see he was a frustrated Parent dealing with a naughty Child who wouldn’t do what he was told! These particular supporters of BT are not interested in an Adult conversation, as they are secure in their prejudices and are angered by any attempt to contradict them. They have probably never had an Adult to Adult conversation in their lives.
@legerwood
What case for the union?
I became a yesser after
1. Waiting 6 months for somebody to articulate the case for the Union
2. Realising what Scotland might be in for if there was a no vote.
I will take great pleasure in voting for Alec Salmond in May.
We did win though. They rigged it!
I think this reveals them for what they are and why they believe in ‘the union’. The problem for them is, they cannot fully explain why they support the union, or why anyone else should either. Perhaps embarrassed by their ancient and unthinking hatred..
A chunk of the No voters are permanently angry anyway – see George Square on the 19th – and I reckon for the rest of them the referendum result was a hell of a lot closer than they’d feared. Now they can see the tide is turning and it’s just a case of delaying the inevitable
Simply, the know the yes side won the moral argument. It also behaved with better honour in the lead up and afterwards the vote as well. Compare that to the empty vows & promises from the NO side. That is what the electorate are rewarding now (in terms of a strong and solid lead for the SNP- the other indepdendence parties will have to wait until the SNP can force PR onto the UK agenda)
I think it is astute to now try and force the issue of Home rule / Devo Max, sit back and watch the unionists fight a bitter No campaign once again,to show them as bitter reactionaries as they are. Who knows they might even dig a deep enough hole to push Scotland towards independence.
I suppose the fact of knowing that your win was only secured by cheating, (as outlined in my previous comment), is not really a comfortable place to be in.
If I’m being honest I have to say that personally I haven’t encountered any grumpy or angry No voters telling me to get over it.
Those that are still moaning are no doubt those that were the biggest moans and loudest voices pre-referendum.
The so called “silent majority” as far as I can tell have gone back to being silent. This may change as the GE comes closer.
Just my own experience.
For me it’s much simpler. In our democracy everyone who is entitled to vote (by virtue of age and liberty) is allowed to vote. Therefore those who choose not to have given up their right to a say and should not be considered in any assessment of the voting figures.
All that matters is those who bother to vote (no matter what total percentage of those eligible to vote they constitute) – in this case 45% versus 55% – a difference in real money of less than the population of Edinburgh.
Spot on, rev Stu. I’ve also been thinking this for a while – that only 46% of scots could be bothered getting off their arses and putting a cross in a box as a thumbs up to the empire on which the sun never set – all that UK guff and history was pummelled to death by the MSM. that the establishment never crossed the 50 threshold will be rattling them Plus nobody gains satisfaction from winning an unfair fight – apart from the BNP and their like. Hence no BT parties. And the third nail in the coffin? Support for the snp has sky rocketed. We can do this. And maybe sooner than we thought?
I loved effijys idea of Paying for some WoS ads in those scabby Labour papers as lets face it the bbc is a bastion of the establishment. how much would it cost? Wings graphics are easily understood and electric. I know for many they were the trigger factor in moving from no to yes.
No voters (Britnats) were angry at the first mention of a referendum. They didn’t and don’t like the thought of their ‘country’ being threatened by us. They certainly don’t appreciate that the threat has not gone away and is, by all accounts, increasing.
Now they know how it feels to be Scottish. We’ve had to live as a region of England for the past 300 years.
It’s our turn now. Time to wag the dog 😉
Ahem, I pointed out No was less than 50% of the electorate soon after the result. 🙂
They’re “angry” because despite all that Project Fear and an ever willing MSM could throw at the electorate, it took an 11th-hour intervention by the most unpopular (former) PM in modern history, (painting the three “No” parties into a corner in the process), to win – albeit by nowhere near the margin they’d have hoped for.
They’re also pi$$ed off because the SNP, instead of imploding, is resurgent and has every prospect of keeping the unionist parties on their toes for the foreseeable.
I’d be pi$$ed off too!
O/T
Just been listening to Lesley Riddochs latest podcast Nous Sommes Charlie. In the middle section she dismantles Dim Jims case & his new stance. Very entertaining listening to her demolish his position in such a gentle but ruthless way.
http://rqs.libsyn.com/nous-sommes-charlie
Well worth a listen
OT SNP meeting in Kirrie packed out tonight. Extra chairs were brought and we were packed in like sardines.
A Pyrrhic victory is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has been victorious in some way; however, the heavy toll negates any sense of achievement or profit (another term for this would be “hollow victory”). 🙂
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
They are the most ungracious “winners” in history.
Me (to a no voting colleague): “The Smith Commission is delivering little [and I list the proposed ‘powers’]. It won’t be implemented until well after the next General Election. Meanwhile Northern Ireland are getting Corporation Tax right now. Why them and not us? I told you, ‘The Vow’ was a con. Gordon Brown’s even stepping down meaning he can’t personally enforce it, even if Labour are elected. Are you still confident that we’ll get his promise of Maximum Devolution?”
Colleague (in a doubtful tone): “That’s what I was banking on.”
How many more are like my colleague?
– The swing voters (Brown persuadees) were conned.
– The swing voters know it.
– The unionists know it.
– The unionists know that the swing voters know it.
– The unionists know, therefore, that independence is a certainty, they know it’s soon to be their, ‘Goodnight Vienna.’ They are afraid.
FWIW, I would like poster/billboard campaigns to feature the work of Greg Moodie. The guy’s a genius.
His stuff reminds me of the hand-printed posters that 7.84 Theatre company produced back in the late 70s, early 80s. They were works of art, and the use of colour was very similar to Moodie’s. I love Chris Cairns work too, but I reckon Moodie’s is far better suited to large public spaces. (His portrayal of Danny Alexander as a gimp had me doubled over – can’t remember last time I laughed so hard at a solitary image.)
Unionism never changes its leprous spots….Remember 1979 and the gerrymandered 40% of all the electorate, whether dead, dying or disappeared required to win.
And guess what?… we got a majority for YES, but because in the ‘Mother of Democracy’ i.e.Westminster the distorted looking glass of that Green and Pleasant Land…we got….nothing and we accepted it.
….Never again brothers and sisters…..NEVER AGAIN!
Some no supporters writing in their local papers said 63% had rejected independence. They were so dim witted they had lumped the 15% non voters in with the 47% no voters. There lies the problem some of them are as thick as shoit on a weans nappy
“I loved effijys idea of Paying for some WoS ads in those scabby Labour papers”
Terry,
They would charge us the earth and the moon.
Their rates would suddenly increase tenfold, at least.
And i wouldn’t put it past the barstewards to put a contradictory advert next to it, full of excrement, nullifying our advert.
A Herald headline. Poll states:
More than half of the people in the UK think Scotland’s First Minister should take part in the TV leaders’ debates in the run-up to the general election while almost two-thirds think the Greens should be involved, a new poll has revealed.
Research by YouGov showed that 53% of adults believe SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon should take part in the head-to-head showdowns in the run-up to the May 7 vote.
Meanwhile, 62% of the 1,684 people across the UK who were questioned want Green leader Natalie Bennett to participate.
————————————————————-
🙂
The Ashcroft poll has SNP/Green at 56% and the union at 44%. I suspect that additional 6% on the 2011 vote is primarily women and having Sturgeon as leader has improved the share of women voters but I would like someone more qualified to anslyse and confirm that.
They’re in the last chance saloon. They know it and worse for them we know it.
It was meant to be a cake walk with the armoury at their disposal. The whole weight of the UK government and their overseas connections. A fully primed media and three branch parties full of sellouts. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Their opposition wouldn’t get a word in edgeways.
Except it wasn’t and they did. We did it by going straight past the meeja and talking to people face to face. So successful was this audacious strategy that with two weeks to go we were ahead in the polls. The result? They were forced into writing cheques they cannot and will not cash. They have nowhere left to go. They either put up or lose it all.
Their media, though still powerful is discredited. Their strategy created so much anger, so much otherness amongst the YES support that we didn’t go meekly back into that box. We want a rematch to lay down some whupass on their sorry kissers. They tarnished Scotland’s name and character home and overseas. They alienated near half the electorate and they’re expecting compliance?
They can kiss my furry wee Pictish bum. 🙂
Dan Huil,
“Negativity was all the unionists had during the referendum. Negativity is all they have today.”
If I could add ‘Negativity is all they have ever had’ and ‘Negativity is all they will ever have’.
The problem is their negativity has always worked upto now and there is a very good chance of it working again in May.
As others have pointed out, if they succeed in reducing the swing to the SNP slightly, they will hold on to most of their seats on a split vote.
What will we do then? Meekly accept the crumbs that are thrown at us by Westminster?
It is about time the SNP threw the negativity right back at them.
The polite approach, though honourable, will never be enough to win an extremely dirty fight as we sadly found out on 19th September last year.
@wilma3957
It was 37.8% of Scotland that voted to stay ruled by Westminster.
62.2% of Scotland did not vote to stay ruled by Westminster.
Capiche.
Macart
‘They can kiss my furry wee Pictish bum’
You too? 🙂
Schrödinger’s cat says:
Heed tracker says
DevoMax
They feared DevoMax more than independence because they thought they could fight Indy, they knew they stood no chance if DevoMax was on the ballot because it would have been selected by maybe 70%.
And, if we got/get DevoMax then we are well on our way to Indy. Everyone knows this, which is why they will fight it even harder than they fought indy. No bad thing because their refusal to deliver the very popular option of DevoMax will encourage voters to seek Indy instead.
Unhappy victors perhaps, unhappy losers definitely. More referendums to come you say, yippey. More opportunities to tear ourselves apart for a result that a sizeable part of the population will hate, regardless of what the outcome is. Super
Remember the two girls struggling to keep their saltire in St Georges Sq the day after the vote? Read this-it seems THEY were arrested & spent the night in the cells. They are now on bail. This is bloody wrong. Is there anything we can do about it?
https://archive.today/AdHzN
This jougery-pokery with the figures is what was spouted by the Coatdyke baroness who learned her trade toileting the late unlamented Robert Maxwell. Is the wummin being deliberately uneconomical with the truth or just stupit.
Stupidity remember is like death. When yer deid everybody knows yer deid, except you because yer deid. And so it is if yer stupit. 🙂
for a quick laugh type subsequently into a google search page. Warning this might not work on IE.
@wilma3957… Don’t worry, our day will come. Things may seem bleak just now but remember… this is only just the start of the revolution!!!
@ Patrician.
Nice one Jim.
🙂
@Patrician
Don’t know how you found it, but it made me chuckle.
scot finlayson @8.08pm
and what the fuck is a cercis tree and has it got elephants and clowns like a scottish circus
Gordon Brown, “The Leaker” Sets The Standard For Jim Murphy And Fellow Labour Politicians To Follow.
The master leaker had the Tory Damien Green arrested on allegations of the same thing whilst he was Prime Minister. Yet at the time he was interviewed by the BBC’s Frank Bough in July 1985 he just couldn’t avoid gloating and smirking about the leaks he had orchestrated, received and passed on through his network of minions who were always eager to do his murky deeds. Many people will have cause to have hatred in their hearts for him. He has departed the scene as a politician, but he leaves a foul stench that will linger for years to come.
Those who might be contemplating voting Labour next May need to be reminded of the nature of politician they would be setting loose on Scotland.
The Labour Party’s elected representatives actions in office and opposition are loathsome and reek of self satisfaction and hypocrisy
http://caltonjock.com/2015/01/12/gordon-brown-the-master-leaker-set-the-standard-for-jim-murphy-and-fellow-labour-politicians-to-follow/
Would it be possible to put the audio version of the WBB on the air?
I found it the best method for getting the points across.
This would get the message out to the listening public and possibly go some way to counteracting the Call K with an E monopoly.
Daily comentary on current articles may be useful moving forward.
You have got it all back to front. They voted No because they are angry type people and they are not going to change just because we had a vote.
This is why I voted Yes. It was a vote against the shouty right wing trolls of the world who seem to be taking over the England of my youth – see UKIP polling.
Scotland is less shouty right wing and would be better off on its own.
I’ve seen more and more comments from this ‘El Del’ over the last few weeks; especially on newspaper forums. He’s nothing more than a troll. If you see him commenting …then just ignore. The guy would bicker over the colour of grass if you allowed him!
@bald eagle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cercis_canadensis
I think he might of meant a Cedar.
@bald eagle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cercis_canadensis
I think he might of meant a Cedar.
Mark Coburn says:
12 January, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Came across my first no-voter-who’s-now-voting-yes on a flight to Milan on Boxing Day. Happy Christmas I said to myself.
mark bloody hell dont leave us hanging on did you reply we have got a right to know you cant just say that and then walk away
This link is not for those with a nervous disposition;
https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/554751994272169987
I think the issue is the unionist expectation that support for independence would stay in the 30-40% range. ProjectFear was supposed to make that happen. Their expecation was that there would be a convincing majority for No, the status quo would be maintened, and the issue of Scottish independence would be put to bed for a generation.
ProjectFear didn’t work. Support for independence grew to match the support for the union and it took ProjectVow to secure the No vote. In a post-referendum poll, 25% of No voters said that “extra powers” was their most important reason for voting No.
Instead of a convincing victory for the status quo and an end to the issue of Scottish independence, the No vote delivered increased support for independence (and for independence supporting political parties) and an apparent promise, from the British Establishment, to deliver not the status quo but home rule for Scotland.
The British Establishments expectations were not met.
Having failed to achieve their expected result – the endorsement of the status quo and the end of any talk of Scottish independence – in the ballot, the Establishment is now doing what it can to achieve the required result by other means.
Obviously, these other means include claiming that their desired result was, in fact, the one that was achieved: they apparently gained a victory of such magnitude that the issue of Scottish independence can be considered settled; and the promises made by ProjectVow have apparently been delivered and the status quo can be maintained.
The referendem failed to meet the Establishments requirements, but the post-referendum rhetoric simply states that it did and when you have the press in your pocket and can say what you like, it seems that will do.
@bald eagle
Cercis siliquastrum ,The Judas tree. As a child I was brought up believing the legend that the Judas tree always flowered around the time of the Christian celebration of Good Friday to commemorate the fact that the ("Tractor" - Ed)ous Apostle Judas Iscariot hung himself on one of these trees in remorse for having betrayed Jesus to his enemies thereby leading to his crucifixion and death at the hands of the Romans. Cercis siliquastrum ,The Judas tree.
Capiche.
Re the angry No etc, I think this explains the full on we are all Brits narrative which is appearing.
From the UJ on all new driving licenses apparently the DVLA have rejected the request from Wales saying it would cost too much to have separate flags, why change it in the first place.
Someone took a photo in Inverness airport where Nessie is being sold under British souvenirs and you can’t go into Marks these days without buying something made in GB complete with UJ.
I have deliberately not bought something for that very reason and I can’t be the only one who’s getting pissed off with this enforced Britishness
@Macart (10.03) –
‘We want a rematch to lay down some whupass on their sorry kissers.’
Love it.
This is what we really need – someone with a Muhammad Ali-type approach who’ll get in their faces, with humour and a naughty grin, but stick it right up them at every available opportunity. They deserve to be ridiculed from now until May 7th, and they’ve given us more than enough ammunition.
Can we sponsor Frankie Boyle to do a 100-town tour? Murphy thought he was being brilliantly witty by shouting that someone’s arse was bigger than their argument – can anyone even begin to imagine what Boyle could do, with or without a microphone and Irn Bru crates?
Everyone who voted No should be walking around with a permanent beamer – if they’re not embarrassed, we have to let them know why they should be. Come on Frankie – what would you charge per gig? (Do we get a discount for ordering one hundred?!)
galamcennalath
their refusal to deliver the very popular option of DevoMax will encourage voters to seek Indy instead.
100%correct, even in England it is gaining traction as a solution???the term hoisted by ones own petard springs to mind
Macart
They can kiss my furry wee Pictish bum.
Lol, this is where the yes camp won hands down, this is our strength, we were defo funnier than the unionists
Your t shirt is in the post mon ami
@ Lollysmumsaid, where is that report on these girls getting arrested in George Square from?
” “Obviously we don’t want a record for doing something – peacefully protesting – which we had the right to do. I don’t think we should have been arrested for it, especially as the police saw people throwing things at us, yet we were the ones taken in,” said Sophie.
As for the flag which was snatched from Sophie’s grasp, her sister managed to seize it back, after leaping on top of it. “I think the fact that I managed to grab it back shows that Scotland is not ready to give up yet”, said Sarah
I’m in love:D Scotland will never give up, which is what’s really annoying our unionist chums.
@Lollysmum
“Remember the two girls struggling to keep their saltire in St Georges Sq …Is there anything we can do about it?”
Sign the petition:
“Public Apology to Sarah and Sophie”
https://www.change.org/p/sir-stephen-house-public-apology-to-sarah-and-sophie
“show your support for these girls to receive a public apology from Police Scotland and for the Procurator Fiscal to immediately drop all charges and exonerate these brave girls.”
The “winners” are very unhappy because they realise what it was they actually won:
deal.
Nothing, nothing at all.
And it gets worse, much worse. For, in order to achieve their “victory”, they lost a great deal.
I think the anger from the No side, or at least the anger from those that are active on boards (I would agree with Alex that many who voted No are saying little or nothing…some aren’t even sure they made the right call) is because the post vote political scene isn’t playing out the way they thought it would.
Something is happening here
but you don’t what it is
do you Mr Murphy
(to paraphrase Dylan’s Ballad of a Thin Man)
Thanks for the info on the brave lassies who defended our Saltire from these revolting unionist fascist thugs. I signed the petition, adding my personal recommendation that the image of them defending our flag be put on our Scottish pound notes when we are independent — and a statue to them raised on Freedom Square.
After that incident, the mere sight of the butcher’s apron turns my stomach and I feel physically sick. I only feel calm again when I look at our Saltire.
scot finlayson
you said bugger all about flowers and yes now i get it
so there is no elephants then
@X-sticks –
Just signed. Thanks for heads-up, didn’t know about it.
It’s almost at 10k.
X_Sticks says:
12 January, 2015 at 11:03 pm
@Lollysmum
“Remember the two girls struggling to keep their saltire in St Georges Sq …Is there anything we can do about it?”
Sign the petition:
“Public Apology to Sarah and Sophie”
https://www.change.org/p/sir-stephen-house-public-apology-to-sarah-and-sophie
“show your support for these girls to receive a public apology from Police Scotland and for the Procurator Fiscal to immediately drop all charges and exonerate these brave girls.”
Signed.
Je suis Sarah et Sophie
@ Graeme
I usually back comb it to go potty. 🙂
@ Ian
Damn straight and couldn’t agree more.
Can anyone answer this
How many old people die in Scotland each year
And how many new voters reach the GE voting age
Reason i ask is social media will every year become more popular than msn media
On Morning Call today they read out a comment from an unhappy winner being cheered by the fact that we still had the Brittish Security Services given the rise in terrorism.
News report this evening that ISIS has spread to Afghanistan and Pakistan. The IS was particularly strong in Helmand Province. Was that not where the BrittishForces spent over a decade suppressing terrorism. Thought came to me like a revelation that if we had stayed out of Iraq and Afghanistan then Islamic State would not exist.
I also thought that if Scotland were Independent we would not be as vulnerable to terrorism as we are now. Just a thought like!
@ X_Sticks
Signed – thanx for the info.
@Famous15
THE SAVAGERY IN PARIS TOLD AN ALL TOO FAMILIAR STORY – THE GOVERNMENT BLEW IT AND THE PEOPLE SAVED THE DAY.
I read an interview recently with a senior ISIS commander who could not have been clearer about things. Without a huge leg up from the American army, there would have been no ISIS. Once the US military had ‘shocked and awed’ its way all the way to downtown Baghdad, they started rounding people up for no particular reason and sending them off to internment camps. The daddy of them all was Camp Bucca which was the size of a small city. 25,000 mainly innocent guys were stuck in dormitories behind the razor wire and basically left to their own devices. Every single ISIS commander got to know one another in Camp Bucca and plans made way back in 2004 have finally come to fruition in 2014.
@bald eagle
Sorry no Elephants I am afraid.
Although their is the `Judas Goat`which was used by shepherds to lead other goats/sheep to the slaughter house,the other goats/sheep assuming/trusting the `Judas Goat`being one of their own was to be trusted.
A bit like our Scottish journalists.
http://rqs.libsyn.com/nous-sommes-charlie
Lesley and Chris talking sense
An excellent article Rev, and some excellent comments, this is what this site is about.
Evidence abounds that there has been movement in the independence vote since September 18.
Wouldn’t it be a good time to have another crowd funded poll with Stuart’s investigative questions?
Caledonia
I am sure I saw the figure of 4% per annum being quoted last year.
@ Patrician nice one Jim ah hope that stays there for a long time.
O/T
How’s this for democracy, Douglas Alexander speaking about the TV debates on Scotland 2015 tonight says that the broadcasters should decide who gets on the TV debates.
The smug little rodent knows that the English broadcasters will never let the SNP anywhere near their debates.
So Alexander wants us to shut up, sit back and let the Labour Party and the Tories fight it out on our TV screens to see who wins our votes.
That sounds like a right good deal to me Dougie, what’s not to like.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head i.e. as to why Britnats are so angry. Considering 200+ years of Rule Britannia, plus what was a pretty concerted push from MSM to make the idea of ‘going it alone’ terrifying, then throw in a last minute vow to say ‘hang on, you can pretty much be independent but have the security blanket in emergencies’, and still they can’t get more than 50% of the electorate to back them up.
I remember saying to a mate about a year back that if the vote was just about nationalism and a choice of your nationality, Scotland would be independent. He challenged that. I said ‘look at the 2011 census results – only 26% identify themselves as Brits’. His response? ‘I don’t think that’s right’ He pointed round the room at a group of our friends and identified 7 out of 10 people who felt British. That certainly trumped the census results. So, you gotta laugh.
O/T but very relevant to our travails with the MSM/BBC, the Royals and freedom of speech in this country.
I came across this film from Keith Allen…
http://yournewswire.com/banned-in-the-uk-princess-diana-documentary-unlawful-killing-must-see/
Never been released in the UK – I wonder why?
I know Stu can’t be expected to do everything, but I wonder if he or someone else could find out if there is an EU representative or body or official we could appeal to, to get the EU flag alongside any place where the butcher’s apron is being forced upon us. Public buildings always seem to be obliged to fly the EU flag next to the national flag — so surely that should be the same in all these cases we are being forced to enduring the creeping takeover of the union flag? What is the legal position? At least seeing the EU flag would make it better about having to see the butcher’s apron plastered everywhere on goods sold in shops. And would get the Daily Mail up in arms with their usual “fury over EU flag” swill.
Looks like the public-apology-to-sarah-and-sophie petition is just 21 short of reaching 10,000 signatures! I was actually hoping the case might go to trial — especially if 1.6 million people turned up to lend their support… Can you imagine the uproar if the case really did go to trial in Yes City Glasgow? BBC Murphy would have its work cut out inventing “muslim terror plot” stories to get it off the news that night!
Sorry about my spelling of Brittish.The incompetence shown in Foreign Affairs perhaps got me confused with the Brittas Empire!
In America Thomas Jefferson was aware of the ability of big government to adversely effect the people they are supposed to serve, he wrote these lines into the Declaration of Independence. Designed to deal exactly with this problem.
“Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government.”
There is growing movements across very many American states that are now taking these words as a right, and are getting prepared to use them in order to “repair” a broken America.
This is no joke, it is for real.
Sounds a bit Scottish ie the King serves the people or the people will replace him!
In other words the people are sovereign. We need to remind ourselves of our own heritage.
What all that tells me is that Danny Alexander is very careless with that wonky calculator. Every bloody anti-independence Tom, Dick and Harriet with poor counting skills seems to be allowed to get their hands on it.
Turnout in Scotland 2010 was 64%, with Scotland in recent polls “certain to vote” about 7% higher than the UK average, it seems reasonable to guess that 70% would be the turnout in May.
Turnout was 85% in the ref, I guess all those who wanted to vote YES, voted, those who wanted to vote NO, voted. But with turnout probably a fair bit less in the GE, it seems reasonable that the turnout will be higher amongst those with the motivation. Voting against Indy was a high motivator, but with the SNP standing for Devo-Max, would voting against DM or the SNP be a high enough motivator for the non-SNP, non-DM camp?
Perhaps this explains the panic of the “nay”sayers, they can work this out for themselves. Our lot will be more highly motivated than theirs.
@ Hoss
Thanks for the link mate, for anyone unsure, you have got to have a look at this film, as it tells us all we need to know about the British elite as well as the pathetic MSM.
http://yournewswire.com/banned-in-the-uk-princess-diana-documentary-unlawful-killing-must-see/
When they started priming people with phrases like ‘silent majority’ you knew then it was going to be rigged
Indy ain’t going away. It’s coming friends. This corrupt regime is in its twilight years. will we ever see Chilcott? Or prosecutions for all the Westminster child abusers?
The system is incapable of reform, of self policing, of scrutiny. Christ, when the US is ahead of us in exposing torture you have to wonder, yes or no, if this is really the decent Christian wonderland the UK myth suggests.
Even the diehard unionists must have their doubts after the No campaign. People want to feel proud of their country – unionists can’t feel proud of the UK as it is a bankrupt, corrupt state run for the benefit of the ruling class. But they have been conditioned to think Scotland is inferior so they hate people who are proud to be Scottish.
I suppose what they hate is that they cannot feel the same about the UK. They envy us.
How much anger have YOU heard?
For me, all the anger is still coming from failed journalists and politicians and their followers.
Sure, there are a few that will pop up on call Kayes pouting pish, how representative of the No voter do you think these people are?
I have no idea but will hazard a guess, they are the same as us but support No, unless their paid that is and their will be a few of them.
One thing is for sure, that is we need to persuade around 200,000 of that that voted No over to the Yes side before we even dare try it again.
They are your neighbors, friends and colleagues, not all are angry or antsy, just some. The vast majority are like you and I and we mainly need to overcome their fear created by a relentless media assault.
You will never make a friend by alienating them. We need more friends.
No brainer, the reason that the wastemonster establishment are putting the butcher’s apron on future driving licenses is that a deal has been struck already by the barstewards and the UK will shortly leave the EU so no need to have its flag on the driving license, that will drag Scotland out of the EU even tho’ the majority of Scots would wish to remain in the EU. In that eventuality we shall have to demonstrate in such numbers as never been seen before in Scotland and ultimately force the wastmonster mandarins into a confrontation in order get to get a second referendum for the Scottish People.
I’ve only just sat down at the PC with this thought in my mind – is there a Scot anywhere, who, with hand on heart, can say that England has ever loved it’s neighbour, Scotland, as much as it has loved itself.
The case for Scotland rests.
“Unhappy victors perhaps, unhappy losers definitely. More referendums to come you say, yippey. More opportunities to tear ourselves apart for a result that a sizeable part of the population will hate, regardless of what the outcome is. Super”
The horse of division has bolted, perhaps never to return due to the lies that were heaped on the people of Scotland by the No campaign. No good crying crocodile tears over it now. But unhappy losers? A few conspiracy theorists aside, do we seem unhappy to you? The SNP’s membership quadruples, Labour lie bleeding in the gutter, a new newspaper speaks for Yes, independence leads in almost every post-referendum poll and the movement continues with barely a moment’s pause from the supposedly mortal blow of defeat.
I know which side I’d rather be on right now.
There’s the truth of it! ” …. the Speaker of the English House of Commons exulted, “We have catch’d Scotland and will bind her fast.”
Oh, Yeah?!!!
I’m still waiting for the concert to be put on by those famous people that begged us to stay. Where is the video saying thank’s Scotland?
Seems a bit rude, making a video begging us to stay and we did stay… Where is the thanks video?
Has Willie Rennie gone crackers?
“The SNP want independence by the back door, “As a minimum they say they want a form of ultra-extreme devolution that doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world”
I miss the camaraderie and positiveness of the Yes campaign – let’s get out again.
What?
this subsequently you mean?
after a particular thing has happened; afterwards.
“many of the Scots who voted for Union subsequently changed their minds”
synonyms: later, later on, at a later date, at some time/point in the future, at a subsequent time, afterwards, in due course, following this/that, eventually, then, next, by and by; More
why did they have to wait until AFTER the vote to change their minds, why couldn’t you lot have changed your minds BEFORE the vote YOU IDIOTS?
———————————–
Ian Brotherhood says
“Can we sponsor Frankie Boyle to do a 100-town tour?”
Youve got something there Ian,
if we could get maybe not one but several people to mosey on down the Murphy trail and just take the total piss out of him,
hey me like. 🙂
————————————-
Anon
can I just say I love your hymns and
just how old are you man?
Oh, and good post! 🙂
————————————
Liz says
“I have deliberately not bought something for that very reason and I can’t be the only one who’s getting pissed off with this enforced Britishness”
You know Liz its amazing the fun you can have with an unused roll of yes stickers,
if ye ken fit a mean like. 🙂
——————————————
Mcart says
“We want a rematch to lay down some whupass on their sorry kissers.’”
We all bow down before you Mcart, 🙂
all hail
SON OF WEE GINGER DUG!
The GE campaign is starting. Everyone will be out campaigning again for fiscal autonomy/Independence with even more grass roots supporters. Including the disillusioned No’s who know they were cheated. The Westminster charade is coming to an end.
Sarah & Sophie were put in the cells. What a disgrace. The Glasgow Police should be held to account. House should never have been made Chief of Police with the record of the £5Million political ‘show’ trail, abuse of public money. Half of Police Scotland could get a week end off, if people were not being put in cells and then ‘charges’ are being dropped. Just a complete waste of time and money. No wonder the criminal justice system is bursting at the seams. Abuse.
The SNP want Independence? The LibDems want Home Rule
Where has Willie been? He doesn’t know his own Party’s policies. Neither does anyone else.
To keep a nation feeling second-class and docile you must keep reminding them they are second-class, that includes dropping election statistics to a minimum arithmetical level, and repeat it as often as possible.
Hope you don’t mind me changing the subject but can anyone enlighten me, I thought that Scotstoun were promised an order for thirteen Frigates by November if we voted no? Has any order been placed as I heard it was now only likely to be eight due to lack of money?
Auld Rock
The referendum was a fix.
The (w)bankers will never give up their cash cow.
Email to STV this morning:-
STV working for Queen, Country and the Labour Party.
I see STV are starting their election campaign on behalf of the Scottish Labour Party.
Your news headlines regarding Ed Miliband ruling out any deal with the SNP was an utter lie. Miliband never ruled out or ruled in any deals with the SNP, so your headlines were to give the impression that the Labour Party will work alone, so vote LABOUR
Your headlines were a LIE.
Also you said this morning that 400 oil workers that were interviewed were “concerned” about their jobs. Why isolate oil workers, why not ask 400 banking sector workers or 400 supermarket workers, all of whom are losing their jobs as we speak.
STV against the Scottish Government and the SNP and all for supporting the Scottish Labour Party.
STV Unionist bastards . We see through your tactics.
Complaints to:-
enquiries@stv.tv
Tel:- 0141 300 3704
Bookie from hell
“ultra-extreme devolution”? Does that mean we share rizlas and nothing else?
Willie is behind the curve on devolution… what does home rule mean, or federalism mean if not what the snp are pressing for?
Guys like Charles Kennedy make a big thing going about federalism but even though it is lib dem policy, when it comes to the crunch they have no appetite for it. Damn them – if any political party deserves oblivion it is the lib dems.
I remember when Ming produced his pathetic proposals for devolution in the run up to the referendum. The lib dems like the phrase ‘home rule’ because it makes them seem all warm and fuzzy and pro Scotland whilst actually meaning nothing. They can claim we have it because it is so vague.
Devo-max, however, everyone understands to be control of everything except defence and foreign affairs but now Willie says that’s extreme. Next well be getting told we weren’t promised home rule…
I don’t “get” this whole Charlie Hebdo thing. I think if I was a Muslin I would have been beelin at the material that this magazine published.
This magazine thinks that it has the right to portray the Muslim prophet Muhammad as a drunk or other offensive images as OK. It is not my sense of “free speech”.
The publishers of Charlie Hebdo remind me of people like Jonathon Ross, Jeremy Clarkson, Piers Morgan or BBC Scotland. They think they can say what they want, which is a kind of bullying tactic, saying,
“We are the majority, so we can do what we like.”
Sometimes that way of thinking comes back and bites you on the bum.
O/T With regard to the TV Leaders’ Debate, have you noticed the two party leaders that have NOT been invited to join the debate are WOMEN? Maybe the MEN from LibLabCon/UKIP are just plain feart?
http://www.libertyblitzkrieg.com/2015/01/12/je-suis-hypocrites-authoritarian-anti-free-speech-politicians-pose-for-staged-photo-op-in-paris/
So David Cameron joined 1.5 million in Paris to show his support for free speech.
And we in the UK believed all that the corrupt State British media showed us.
Check out the real story by clicking on the link above.
Ha ha ha ha. BBC Jockland air a piece about Steve Emerson who is a so called “security expert’ and had to apologise for his remarks about Birmingham being a no go area for Muslims. He stands by comments however that Religious Police in London beat people for not wearing Islamic clothes.
BBC sought comment from their expert on accurate reporting, casting scorn on Fox news.
Priceless. Have they posted an apology from Kaye Adams for her lies yet? Or Nick Robinson or anyone else in THEIR employ who skews the truth?
Oh boy. BBC Scotland had a discussion there about ‘expert pundits’ and whether they can be trusted in the wake of a Fox commentator making outlandish claims about Muslims in Britain.
If only Fox had the calibre of impartial expert pundit that the BBC do. Like Curtice, McLaren, Angus Armstrong etc.
But the real scrambler was that the chummy BBC discussion involved none other than Blair Jenkins, the man who thought the BBC unbiased during the indyref campaign.
Ever get the feeling you’ve been had?
caz-m
Have to say i’m with you on that. With freedom comes responsibility.
Or what about STV reporting the 11% (£2Billion) increase in the Oil tax in the 2011Budget. Cut 2% in tbe Autumn Statement. This has cost Scotland £4Billion+ a year since and cut exploration. It had the effect of falling revenues. Bring the UK Oil tariffs up to 80%+ a year. 50% + 30%., plus Corp tax on profits etc. It was done for spite because of tbe Referendum, by Akexander/Osbourne. Never has an industry been so mismanaged by Westminster.
The Scottish Gov has invested in Renewables (£32Million EU funds), Construction (roads) and increased fishing (negotiated), tourism, the NHS/Uni.
The Labour/ Unionists have made a complete, expensive carbuncle of Aberdeen City, causing more traffic chaos in the City. A Muse Construction Project leased back for thirty years by the Council costing £Millions over budget. It should never have been allowed to go ahead by a Green vote. They refused a Gift of £80Million+ for the UTG Project which would have pedestrianised the City. They are spending £33Million vandalising the Art Gallery.
France, Britain and tbe USA have been causing destruction in the Middle Easr for nearly one hundred years. France and Britain carved up the Middle East and the US caused devastation for Oil. The hypocrisy. Where is the Chilcot Verdict? Secretly hidden away.
This might be slightly off-topic but, am I alone in thinking the words “Scotland” or “Scottish” are being banned on the BBC.
I watched the programme: ‘Queen Victoria’s Letters’ on BBC4 on Sunday night. I had to laugh when the programme makers informed us that Vicky and Albert bought Balmoral Castle: “In the north of Britain”; it was as-if they couldn’t bring themselves to acknowledge there was such a place as Scotland.
Then, on Monday night, again on BBC4, I watched the programme on the gardens at Stowe. During this Walpole was repeatedly referred-to as “England’s longest-serving Prime Minister”, despite the fact he was “first among equals” in the United Kingdom Parliament, the English and Scottish parliaments having been amalgamated some 20-years before he first came to power.
Repeatedly, “England” was used when referring to the United Kingdom or Great Britain. I appreciate our Imperial Masters in the so-called metropolitan elite have long had a problem working-out where England finished and the UK or Great Britain started, but, since 19 September last year, I perceive there to be more examples of this on the BBC.
“37.9% of everyone in Scotland registered to vote” is not necessarily the same as 37.9% of the Scottish electorate.
Why? Because at the time of the referendum there was no check that people registering to vote a) actually exist and b) actually live a the address they gave to the assessors’s office.
Individual voter registration will, eventually, deal with a) by requiring NI numbers to get on the register. However, what has happened to date, and what will apply in May, is that everyone on the existing roll has simply been added to the new roll, with no further check.
b) remains an issue unless and until such time as assessors actuall start checking that people live where they say they live, full time.
Westminster causes the migration to Europe, then complains about it.
Oops I meant to say that Steve Emerson alleged that Birmingham is a no go area for Non Muslims.
Apologies for going off-topic, but I’ve added a suggestion to the Wee Blue Book page – a new Wee Blue Book for GE2015. Any thoughts?
http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/comment-page-2/#comment-1945756
With only 37.9% of the total electorate voting Yes and only 46.7% of the total electorate voting No, then there was no overall winner ! I think that makes it a draw !
My take on the TV debate is hardly original but it seems clear that Cameron and the Unionist Establishment want to suppress the Independence movement and to degrade the SNP – and indeed Scotland itself.
The last thing they will want to do is put Nicola centre stage in the run-up to GE15 where she can be seen and heard by many millions of viewing voters, and thereby risk stirring up the Independence issue.
Cameron knows it makes him look bad but he will have been told that the consequences of Nicola on TV as part of the Leader’s debate, will be worse.
David Cameron – supporter of Freedom of Speech.
He went to Paris for a sham photo shoot for that cause – just let him come to Glasgow’s streets and try the same thing. As if.
BTW have any of the Unionist Leaders come north of the border since September 18th. I didn’t think so.
Or again, has anyone seen Boothman and McQuarrie out and about, the BBC’s hatchet men at Pacific Quay, soon to be the former home of the BBC in Scotland. Like the cowards and ("Tractor" - Ed)s they are, they will be careful not to be seen in public during hours of daylight.
The BBC hated in Scotland.
@Alex Clark says:13 January, 2015 at 1:10 am:
“How much anger have YOU heard? For me, all the anger is still coming from failed journalists and politicians and their followers.”
To an extent you are correct, Alex. However you are missing a very salient fact. That bit you said, “all the anger is still coming from failed journalists and politicians and their followers”, is the key but misses the knock-on effect.
I used a Scottish phrase here a couple of days ago in relation to the village of Kelty as it was around the 1960/70s. That phrase was, “In Kelty thir aa ersehole connections”. That translates into English as, “In Kelty everyone is somehow related to everyone else”.
So when it comes to the elections each candidate has a large number of, “ersehole connected”, supporters. This includes their own immediate families and the outward spread of those from other families the immediate family have married into.
So Political Party loyalty goes out the window when the elected representatives call in favours owed by the immediate family and the in-laws. Like the occupation of the better council houses and so on of the, “Ersehole Connected”, folks.
I remember there was a certain choice cul-de-sac where every single house was occupied by a family connected to a certain local councillor by either bloodline or by marriage.
It is like dropping a stone into a pond. The ripples spread out from the splash and reach all the way to the pond banks but get smaller as they go. That is the state of local politics in much of rural and suburban Scotland.
@John King
“SON OF WEE GINGER DUG!”
I’m reasonably well preserved, but that might be goin’ too far. 😀
Westminster hypocrites who cover up their crimes using the Official Secrets Act.
I see the two girls who stood up to Unionist thugs on George Sq on the 19th Sept, were arrested for obstructing at that time and could now face court and fines.
The Vice website,
“Why Were Two Scottish Independence Supporters Arrested For Their Peaceful Stand in Glasgow? January 12, 2015, by Liam Turbett”
If they did face a fine I’d contribute.
Caz-M
If I was a Muslim I would be even more beelin at people abducting hundreds of schoolgirls in Africa, shooting schoolkids in Pakistan, beheading aid workers for youtube and blowing up and shooting innocent civilians all in the name of Mohammed. A cartoon, whether in poor taste or not, is nothing by comparison.
Islam has a problem child called radicalism and only Islam can fix that. Tiptoeing around this won’t work. Hebdo had challenging cartoons about the Pope and Jesus but no one was shot over them.
Freedom and tolerance means the freedom to be wrong as well as right.
In Scotland, politics is the new rock’n roll.
So join a Party – and with Wings, you won’t miss a beat.
O/T (sorry) but have we ever been linked to any surveys or petitions etc on here from Change.org?
I have just received an email from them telling me that I have signed a petition to get a recount of the vote with a linkt to a Sunday post story from 10.01.15.
I remember signing the daft Gordon Brown petition but nothing before or since.
” Nicola Sturgeon: We the undersigned demand a revote of the Scottish Referendum, counted by impartial international parties..” it reads.
Anyone else had this?
Petition signed, what about another one calling on the removal of said police chief?
Seems that the no voters are so angry that we have been elevated to Nazis again. Sorry no wearing it.
They can kiss my furry wee pictish bum:-D
Graeme Doig
It should be nothing more than common sense and good manners not to insult another religion.
And should you insult another religion, then sometimes you pay a heavy price for that. Northern Ireland comes to mind.
If the British Establishment hold this right of freedom of speech so dearly, then why did they come up with term “Cybernat” for anyone who questioned the British State on the internet.
Up the Republic!
Robert Peffers @ 9.41 am:
I can relate to your Kelty example. I always liked the one that another “distinguished” Fifer, Donald Finlay QC came up with: “High Valleyfield, 8000 population, four surnames”.
We have a similar situation in the former coal-mining villages of East Ayrshire, where you frequently hear the enquiry: “Whae’s he fur a Smith, or Jones?” – a reference to the shallowness of the gene pool.
This has long been Labour’s secret weapon in large tranches of Scotland, the way the people’s party could depend on the people to vote for them.
There is now clear evidence this tribal loyalty is unravelling – long may it continue.
When I was a boy, the miners around here voted Labour; the foremen, tradesmen, shop-keepers and professionals voted Scottish Unionist. The Unionists were then taken-over, let-down and abandoned by the English Conservatives, so, most of their supporters turned to Labour, and, on being let-down there, they have increasingly turned to the SNP.
The Referendum was the lost straw for an awful lot of Labour voters, in May we will – if we push hard enough – the Labour Party going the same way as the Unionist Party.
Freedom is within sight, if we push hard enough.
HandandShrimp 9.48am
Don’t you find the Charlie Hebdo cartoons offensive in any way?
And your way of thinking has left seventeen people dead in Paris and the whole of Europe on severe alert for more Muslim attacks.
All I am saying here is that the magazine should have used a wee bit more of the old grey matter.
I think the anger stems from a number of reasons. The first one is that…nothing changed. They woke up with the tories in power, with austerity not just becoming more entrenched, but increasingly being normalised. One other reason is that…nothing changed. The yes camp were still adamant that independence was the way forward, and they still held the opposite view. So they woke up the day after and realised the argument had not gone away.
The other reasons? They can’t convince yes voters to get behind the union and be reconciled to being British. The only settled will they have are those who voted no. Confronted by the settled will of a significant proportion of Scots who voted yes, they make continued cries that we must be reconciled but can’t think of how to do it. Hence the “fun with numbers” game they are playing in a desperate attempt to make us forget it about. Stop being whingers they say – just unite with us in national unity.
“You’re British that’s an end of it” is a cry we have all heard I am sure. Amazing to think that their idea of reconciliation is to use their identity as an insult. There is nothing welcoming in that statement – it’s an insult intended to provoke a response. The response increasingly is slight regard and bewilderment that winners could act like sore losers.
They won. They saved the union. The price of that victory was too high I think. They want us to forget it and move on. We have moved on, looking forwards to 2015 and beyond.
They’re still wallowing in that September morning in 2014 when they won and wondering why it feels like a defeat.
Michael Forsyth was right (don’t think I’ve ever said that before) when he said the NO vote had to be big, 60% plus (I think he was hoping for 62%) for the independence issue to go away. What has happened now is the ball has started rolling towards Scottish independence unless there is an extraordinary intervention from Westminster. The fear the unionists have is independence is just a matter of time whether that is 5 years or 10 years time because they know a sizeable percentage of the NO vote was held through fear.
I have no doubt that independence is inevitable and I believe that is what unionists are feeling too hence the bitterness. The hardcore unionist vote sits around 30%, the problem they have is that figure won’t grow because this is as good as it’s going to get under Westminster for a couple of decades to come. The only way to prolong a ‘United’ Kingdom is through Federalism and Full Fiscal Autonomy for all nations, but again that will only to lead independence.
So, unless Westminster declares the SNP and referendums illegal, we are all on the road to self determination, it just depends how quickly and by what method we get there.
@caz-m says:13 January, 2015 at 9:56 am:
“And should you insult another religion, then sometimes you pay a heavy price for that. Northern Ireland comes to mind.”
Since when have both sides in the religious/political conflict of Northern Ireland been different religions?
Both sides are sects of Christianity. Hence the term, “Sectarian conflict”. The truth is that these idiots would have invented something else to hate each other for if King Billy had never been invited by the English to replace the deposed King James II of England.
@Socrates MacSporran
I don’t think that you are wrong about the NON use of Scotland. I have been deliberately noting this for a couple of weeks.
It’s not only the BBC but STV and SKY is bad just now. Watching the weather forecast yesterday it was as if they had been banned from using the word “Scotland”. They mentioned England and Wales but Scotland is just “in the North” now.
I think that it is a deliberate ploy!
@scotspine
Yes, the BBC are in no position to take the high ground regarding truth and accurate reporting compared to Fox News.
Made me think, though. There are parallels. To the more informed viewer, Fox News is a joke, yet there must be millions of Americans who take what they say at face value. The BBC has achieved a similar status – a joke to the informed, believed by the gullible.
It all goes beyond joke, though. Both Fox and the BBC have decided to adopt a very biased political position and actively influence their respective electorates.
There is a huge difference, too. Fox is a private organisation, the BBC is a tax payer funded public broadcaster. Fox can do as it chooses, the BBC acts as if it can do as it wants. The BBC needs reigned in!
Robert Peffers 10.15am
“Since when have both sides in the religious/political conflict of Northern Ireland been different religions?”
You are a fairly intelligent guy Robert, you know very well I was talking about the Catholic and Protestant religions.
Don’t try to be a fuckin smartarse.
Have to agree – Scotland , Scottish and saltires are being airbrushed out by the media.
I have decided never to shop in Sainsbury’s ever again – union flags over everything . I always check that my tatties are Scottish and now they are ” small” Scottish UNION BIG.
I look forward to Burn’s night – will they continue to splatter their veggies with union flags – someone might let me know.
I think they are doomed to unhappiness as they will not be satisfied with anything less than the complete submersion of Scotland into Greater England. And that isn’t going to happen is it, folks?
Dorothy
Morrisons are the same. Used to see saltires on butter, cheese and the like now just Union flags. I think of all the supermarkets Morrisons were amongst the most deceitful over who they supported. They paid lip service to neutrality but backed the Tories/Union.
Slightly O/T
Does anyone (e.g. Ken 500) have a good rebuttal of the argument with No voters about the Oil price dropping to $50 per barrel. The standard thing you here is “there told you so, what’s Alic Salmin saying noo” type of rebuttal.
Interesting to see Willie Rennie trying to twist vote for SNP in general election into vote for SNP for independence by back door. The SNP really need to up their press media responses and coverage and start hitting back on this stuff
Alistair at 11.03
The rebuttal is simple. Scotland doesn’t need oil to survive. It is a bonus.
The UK does need the oil to survive. It doesn’t produce anything else except debt and nuclear waste.
Standard and Poor stated that they would give Scotland its highest rating WITHOUT the black stuff.
Also, tell them about how VOLATILE oil prices are and that even if the YES was resounding, we wouldn’t get our hands on the revenue for a while yet.
The oil prices are fixed according to the political needs of the Yanks and pals.
Russian sanctions aren’t working, hurt the prices, does us a favour in the short term. It can’t last long. It has been planned and accounted for.
The SNP can’t really say anything for fear of being ridiculed. I know this is frustrating, but anything they do say will be turned against them even though it is true.
alistair,
Some points about the oil price for your no friends.
1) this is why we should have an oil fund.
2) lower price should free up disposable income to spend into the economy (lower price at pumps) but of course the uk doesn’t actually make anything due to thatcher and labour policies so we end up stimulating the economy of others. A union dividend.
3) Oil is physical capital – it will still be in the ground when prices rise. The uk economy is all about financial speculation. An economy based on debt is far more volatile.
4) no one ever dreamed of building an economy solely based on oil. Another smear by the no campaign. A prime example of an economy based on one thing is the UK.
Alistair
There are a couple of things to note about the oil price.
Firstly, during the campaign the No side said it was worth next to nothing and that Scottish Government figures were plain wrong. Now the loss is apparently in the order of 10s of billions. So it would be worth huge sums to Scotland if the oil price returns upwards (as it is likely to do) so we should squirrel away these estimates from the No side and use them in the future.
Secondly, the Scottish economy is as diverse and, in terms of GDP per head, as robust as the rest of the UK. That economy benefits from lower oil prices so it is swings and roundabouts. The absolute loss to the Scottish exchequer would not be as high as the reduction in oil price because the rest of the economy would have the stimulus of lower fuel costs and lower input inflation.
The economic implications of lower oil prices in a diverse economy are more complex and have pluses and minuses than for those states that rely heavily on oil exports as their primary source of tax and foreign reserve.
Of note, at $50 a barrel fracking is fracked.
Since 1970, £187,825,000,000 has been collected by the UK in tax from the North Sea – what happened to it?
For every litre of petrol / diesel bought at the pumps, the UK collects 60% in VAT and duty, what’s happened to it?
For every £1 spent by households on gas and electricity, 5% is collected by the UK Government, what’s happened to it?
I could go on…
@manandboy, 9.14am
You were amused to see David Cameron in Paris. He was posing alongside Prime Minister Rajoy of Spain – see this
http://wolfstreet.com/2014/12/20/spain-takes-a-giant-step-backward-towards-its-dark-past/
Alistair 11.03am
“The SNP really need to up their press media responses and coverage and start hitting back on this stuff.”
I remember we were telling Blair Jenkins and the rest of the YES high command office to do more to rebut unionist lies that were flying out of Pacific Quay. They done nothing and we lost.
We have since found out that Blair Jenkins actually thought that there was NO bias in BBC Scotland reporting.
We need to be on the front foot this time round.
@Flower of Scotland.
Agree with you.Very noticeable recently that the EBC National weather does not refer to Scotland they use northern Britain or the north.
@caz-m says:13 January, 2015 at 10:35 am:
“You are a fairly intelligent guy Robert, you know very well I was talking about the Catholic and Protestant religions.
Indeed I do know very, very well that you wrote, “Catholic & Protestant religions”, caz-m but the point I am making seems to have flown way above your head.
The point you miss is that the religion is , “Christianity”, and so both Catholics and Protestants are Christians.
As to your insulting comment, “Don’t try to be a fuckin smartarse”, it seems the epithet applies far more to you than to me so I’ll set it out again for you.
Neither the word, “Catholic”, nor, the word, “Protestant”, describes, “a religion”. “Roman Catholic”, describes a sect of the religion, “Christianity”. The word, “Protestant”, also describes a sect of Christianity and the latter sect are actually so called because they are protesting against the Roman Catholic sect of Christianity. They are thus both sects of the same Christian religion.
Perhaps if both lots faced up to that fact there would be no sectarian strife and violence in the country of Scotland.
Another new thing I noticed on the weather is that they start with a UK map, one in whitch Scotland is smaller than it should be but not as much as usual, but as the weather person speaks it gradually shrinks to the miniscule size beloved by the ministry of Truth.
Could that be considered a more effective undermining of Scot’s self esteem than just having it small all the time I wonder?
@alistair 11.03am
Ask them how other small independent countries manage without oil. Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland. Denmark. Ask them how those countries manage to be independant and if we should simply give away our oil to put ourselves in the same position as them.
Also, see here.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/383912/UKCS_Tax_Chart_December_2014.pdf
These are UK government figures for oil and gas revenues since 1976. The total between 1976 and 2014 is £325.4 billion, which is an average over 38 years of £8.5bn a year.
The SNP has been calling for an oil fund for decades, so that the industry is protected from price fluctuations. But Westminster saved nothing of that £325 bn. That’s why we need control of this vital resource.
They will say that nothing of that £325bn could be saved, because Scotland has always run a deficit. That’s a lie. Also, Scotland pays for many things that an independant Scotland wouldn’t – billions towards HS2, London Sewers, Olympics, etc. And also billions towards repaying debt that isn’t ours.
The fact is Westminster squandered £325bn in oil and gas tax revenues that Scotland could have used to protect the industry.
@dmw42
I’ve noticed the figure of £187bn used for UK oil tax, too, and even used it myself. But I think the number is even higher if we look at it in terms of today’s value of the pound. See the chart linked to in my last post. It’s more like £325bn.
@ Dorothy Devine Unions flags canny stick tae ah neep lol
Karmanaut
Yep, I agree. I was quoting the figures collected ‘in year’, but you’re correct that if you convert ‘in year’ proceeds to ‘today’s value’ the revenue doubles.
And if you add interest, compounded, at 2% above base rates, the total value of a ‘fund’ would have been well in excess of £1trn.
@alistair says: 13 January, 2015 at 11:03 am:
” Does anyone (e.g. Ken 500) have a good rebuttal of the argument with No voters about the Oil price dropping to $50 per barrel. The standard thing you here is “there told you so, what’s Alic Salmin saying noo” type of rebuttal.
We have the best rebuttal to that daft argument, Alistair.
The truth being that the drop in oil prices has little effect upon Scotland for the very good reason that all the revenues from the oil goes directly to the United Kingdom Treasury.
Scotland gets a block grant that is not tied to the price of oil. The only real hit for Scotland is tied to the jobs of the workers. Even the income tax paid by the workers goes to the UK treasury. As does the corporation tax of the companies and the tax upon shareholders profits.
Even when the UK does it’s sums they only credit Scotland with having earning 8.4% of the entire revenues from the Oil & gas. Not to mention that the Scottish Government has always claimed in their figures that they based them on the Scottish economy and that the oil & gas were a bonus.
The truth is that the fall in oil price hits the UK treasury much, much harder. Furthermore, Scotland and the Scottish government’s assessments of a an independent Scottish economy only ever saw oil & gas revenues as a bonus.
robert peffer
I know that Catholic and Protestant are both faiths of Christianity.
And so as I said earlier,
stop trying to be a pedantic fuckin smartarse.
It’s cunts like you who I am wanting to be free of, they are called establishment arseholes.
Don’t fuckin annoy me ya patronisin bastard.
@ Alistair
A good rebuttal is to reveal that the UK government’s own DECC predicted a range of oil prices for 2014/15 starting at $92 but going as high as $130:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/212521/130718_decc-fossil-fuel-price-projections.pdf
Also ask them to name a single oil expert/economist who predicted the current slump and ask them if they consider it reasonable to assume oil prices would remain above $100 per barrel given that it had only once dipped below that level since January 2011:
http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/crude-oil-brent.aspx?timeframe=4y
caz-m
I come on to WoS for the news, facts, opinions and banter.
I didn’t expect to come across a J McTernan style blast of foul language.
It is not your norm, so can I ask you, politely, to use your grey matter, as you thought CH should do, and remember the whole purpose of this site.
We can disagree, but stay polite and remember, the target is greater than all of us.
I hope you are not offended.
To all those replied, thanks for those inputs on rebuffing the “what will you do now that Oil has fallen to $50” No voter type remark. It hasn’t quite nailed the “but 15% of your economy would rely on it” remark that we are now getting with the prospect of home rule, but the inputs are a good help.
(i.e. its like the same old we would be worse off under (replace independence) with home rule, while totally ignoring the shambolic state of UK Debt.
I’d still like to hear from Ken500 if he is on today as he’s good with the numbers !
O/T I wonder if Ed will start silencing Murphy after yesterday’s Ashcroft poll, as it can’t be helping Ed down soufth.
tartanarse says:
13 January, 2015 at 9:51 am
O/T (sorry) but have we ever been linked to any surveys or petitions etc on here from Change.org?
yep got the same thing yesterday deleted it something fishy going on as ive never signed any of their petitions JUST DUMP IT IN THE BIN as your name will appear somewhere else
Caz M
You are out of order with those responses to Robert.
Totally uncalled for “sir”
@cirsium says:
13 January
You were amused to see David Cameron in Paris. He was posing alongside Prime Minister Rajoy of Spain – see this
http://wolfstreet.com/2014/12/20/spain-takes-a-giant-step-backward-towards-its-dark-past/
——————
Thanks cirsium – I was very interested to read your linked piece as we made new friends during the summer who live in Barcelona and who are very keen on independence for Catalunya.
They will not be happy with PM Rajoy and his new ‘unity’ measures. I feel for them.
Thanks again and best wishes.
Another string to the oil price argument:
The pound has fallen 20 cents against the dollar since the oil price started to slump. As oil is bought and sold in dollars that means a near 60% drop in $/barrel is closer to a 50% drop in £/barrel.
Still not exactly good news, but takes the edge off it slightly.
Ronnie , I’m damned sure they could!
I expect to see union flagged a’thing in Sainsbury’s , Morrisons , Marks and Spencers ,Tesco and uncle Tom Cobley and all.
C’wa Lidl and Aldi!
liz g
just opened Wings again and you have butted into something you seem to know nothing about.
I will politely ask you to mind your own business.
did you read the posts leading up to my reply, if not keep out of it.
Leave it at that liz,,,,please.
Caz M since you asked so nicely X
Time to have a look at Wings – hope it’s all been peace and love today, I’ve had enough of unnecessary squabbling today.
Surely people don’t believe the conflict in Northern Ireland was about what sect of Christianity people believed?
Though shalt not kill?
The main cause for the troubles was the British establishment yet again interfering in another nation by gerrymandering this nation, placing a largely British (protestant) group into a mostly Catholic nation in order to create divisions.
Catholics live side by side in almost every nation in which Christianity is prevalent, all except N Ireland and Scotland!
The trouble in both nations are caused by British Nationalism.