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The ultimate Britishness fail

Posted on August 19, 2014 by

The Times of London (to give it its full title) has been the newspaper of record for the British establishment for 226 years. It was practically the only facet of British life that survived in the dystopian future of George Orwell’s “1984”. Even though it’s now owned by an Australian/American, the brand remains one of the most recognised and iconic symbols of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom, revered across the globe.

(It even created the “Times Roman” font which is the default standard typeface of the English-speaking world, and which these words you’re reading now are displayed in.)

natoqueue

Which means there’s absolutely no excuse for this sort of cobblers.

The story prominently featured in today’s edition isn’t, in the first instance, a story at all. NATO’s director-general simply made a statement of the bleeding obvious – that an independent Scotland would have to first apply for NATO membership before that application could be accepted. That’s not news, that’s anti-news.

It’s also an already-known fact that the existing members of the alliance would all have to approve the application, and nobody with the slightest grasp of reality believes that any of them would veto it, leaving NATO’s strategically-crucial “GIUK Gap” undefended.

But none of that is what we’re talking about here.

“Any country in Europe seeking to join the military alliance, formed in 1949, has to be invited to do so by all member states. This process can happen smoothly but each Nato member is allowed to create a condition that could block accession.

‘Some aspiring countries have waited for many years,’ Mr Rasmussen said. ‘Others enjoy a very short procedure depending on how close they are to fulfilling the necessary criteria.'”

That’s not how “queues” work, is it, readers? The fundamental principle of a queue is that the first person to join it is the first person to be served, and so on down the line. The people in a queue don’t wait varying amounts of time depending on how close they are to fulfilling any criteria. They get dealt with by who got into the queue first.

If there’s one thing in the whole world more British than The Times, it’s the concept of queueing. If there’s one thing on Earth that The Times ought to be able to accurately identify and explain, it’s a queue. Yet under a headline warning that Scotland will have to join a queue, the planet’s most British newspaper then proceeds to outline a scenario which is the exact diametric opposite of a queue.

You can’t make this stuff up.

We mock satirically for fun. But as with the Scottish Sun’s idiocy this morning, there’s a serious point. The thought of an independent Scotland as a international outcast, shut out of the West’s defence alliance, is a scare story of the crudest order. It’s designed to frighten the electorate into voting No by deliberately misrepresenting the reality, cloaking a falsehood in plausible-sounding quotes that don’t fall to pieces until the reader applies their own scrutiny.

It’s perhaps worth tuning in to the rest of the piece.

“The Union Jack flies prominently outside the front of Nato’s headquarters alongside the flag of the United States. The flags of the other 26 member states are also displayed. There is no Scottish flag flying.”

Er, duh. Scotland isn’t a member. Why would its flag be flown?

“Military chiefs in Britain are already incredibly concerned about the impact on British defence of a ‘yes’ vote. They have warned that this would hit the size and capabilities of the Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force, with the rest of the UK forced to carve up its armed forces to give Scotland a share.

Such a move is seen as so devastating that the Ministry of Defence has not seriously drawn up plans as to how to respond, relying instead on a hope that the No campaign will win.”

Um, right. The MoD is so terrified that it’s just closing its eyes and hoping the danger goes away. And this is the proud, mighty United Kingdom that we’re supposed to be relying on for our defence? We don’t know about you, readers, but this news doesn’t fill us with confidence.

(Also, didn’t the then-defence secretary Phillip Hammond strenuously insist that the UK wouldn’t allow its armed forces to be broken up like “a chocolate bar”, and that the very notion was “laughable”? Didn’t he say that Scotland would have to build its own from scratch, rather than taking bits of the UK’s? Can’t anyone keep their story straight for five minutes?)

“An independant [sic] Scotland’s loss of Nato membership would further weaken the rest of Britain, said Admiral Lord West of Spithead, a former Labour security minister and former head of the Royal Navy. This was because being part of the alliance meant that countries shared the responsibility and expense of their collective defence. An isolated Scotland would still need protection.”

Against whom?

“‘The reality is that they will be relying on us and Nato for their defence and they are not willing to pay their share,’ Lord West said.”

Wait, what? Who said Scotland wouldn’t pay its share? Did we turn over two pages at once? Scotland WANTS to join and contribute like everone else. The allegation being made here is that its application for membership would be refused. In which case, how would it be Scotland’s fault that it wasn’t paying its share?

“For this reason, he felt that Britain would not try to derail any future attempt by an independent Scotland to join Nato. However, he said that other countries, such as Spain, with worries about struggles for independence within their own borders, could refuse a Scottish application as a warning to others.”

(Our emphasis.) And the total collapse of the story is now complete. The Times having hinted that the UK might be the one to veto Scottish membership, Lord West promptly blows that idea out of the water. And we already know that Spain has pledged not to interfere in Scottish affairs so long as independence is achieved constitutionally and legally, which the Edinburgh Agreement ensures it will be. We doubt Spain wants the GIUK Gap left unpatrolled any more than any other NATO member does.

Honestly, readers, we expect this sort of half-arsed, intellectually-incoherent drivel from the Express or the Daily Mail. We look for rather higher standards in The Times. But if Great Britain’s most august and esteemed newspaper no longer even understands what a queue is, perhaps it’s time for a reappraisal of those expectations.

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  1. 19 08 14 15:01

    The ultimate Britishness fail | Scottish Independence News

  2. 20 08 14 11:09

    NO camp’s NATO threat brushed off by YES campaign – Daily Wales

353 to “The ultimate Britishness fail”

  1. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Rev. Stu. says
    “we expect this sort of half-arsed, intellectually-incoherent drivel from the Express or the Daily Mail. We look for rather higher standards in The Times.”

    No it is exactly the type of incoherent tripe that passes as strategy I have come to expect over the years from the unionist media. They don’t deserve to hold the the crayons & bog paper, let alone edit a newspaper.

  2. Itsagoinwrang says:

    Since they have a “don’t pay, can’t read” policy, I would expect their website won’t get much of a read anyway up here.

    Sad though that such an august newspaper feels it must plumb the scaremongering depths of others.

  3. heedtracker says:

    The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is going to say no to the nation state of Scotland and much of the Atlantic seaboard for the whole of Europe? Sounds about Britnat right.

    Another teamGB vote no triumph of British nationalism over Scottish democracy.

  4. Chris Darroch says:

    Looks like The Times is an anachronism.

  5. HulloHulot says:

    (It even created the “Times Roman” font which is the default standard typeface of the English-speaking world, and which these words you’re reading now are displayed in.)

    It and times are the default, but Georgia, which is also a default system font, is a lot better; clearer and crisper; on screen than Times and Times NR.

    We look for rather higher standards in The Times.

    The Times has turned off the taps on higher standards.

  6. Roboscot says:

    I’ve always been a definite ‘Yes’ but I do wonder how much the execrable quality of the anti-independence campaign is encouraging the less certain to vote ‘Yes’ as well.

  7. Robert Whyte says:

    bazinga

  8. Billy McKinlay says:

    “Er, duh. Scotland isn’t a member. Why would its flag be flown?”

    Strange. Yes Scotland and the Scottish Government seem to disagree with you:

    “The current Scottish Government supports CONTINUED membership of NATO”

    Are they, or you, wrong?

  9. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Heedtracker

    “Another teamGB vote no triumph of British nationalism over Scottish democracy.”

    A triumph of British Nationalism over common sense?

    This lot seem to have a unerring or snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

    They do it every time.

  10. Macart says:

    Fuckwittery and dissembling of the highest order. Seriously, is there any title out there which will rise above this obvious bollocks? Is this how they truly see an independent Scotland? Shunned, locked out, an international pariah?

    FFS grow up meeja, you’re just embarrassing now.

  11. a2 says:

    That’s come as a bit of a shock as I’ seeing this in a s”Sans” font which I assume to be Arial

  12. caz-m says:

    George Islay MacNeill Robertson, Baron Robertson of Port Ellen, KT, GCMG, FRSA, FRSE, PC.

    I think this clown Robertson would agree with every threat that comes out of NATO.

    Threatening Scotland with NATO membership is just a non-starter. For a start, where is Scotland positioned geographically? The North Atlantic.

    Who is the organisation threatening Scotland’s membership,

    The NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION:- NATO.

    I would tell them to piss off and stick their membership right up their ronson.

    I can assure you, they will come back begging Scotland to join their wee club.

  13. Nation Libre says:

    Things must be real bad in the private polling if they’re dragging the Times down to this crap. They can’t be far off the last throw of the dice

    Feeling more confident of a YES over the last few weeks. Seeing more and more support from females recently. Good on them

  14. Johannah Buchan says:

    Well maybe we could tell NATO if they dinna let us jine we’re keepin their nuclear toys & they’re nae gettin em back till they let us in.

  15. Triangular Ears says:

    It’s a sign of The Times…

  16. Nan Rattray says:

    Another (picky) point. Scotland’s flag IS flying at Nato headquarters, albeit as part of the union jack. Not for much longer ‘tho we hope.

  17. donald anderson says:

    To the editor of the London Thames.

    Sir, What is the British Empah coming to? In my day we would have sent a gunboat round the Jock’s coast and taught these Tartan Fuzzie Wuzzies, Hey Jimmy Porridge W*gs a lesson that would have left them sadder but wiser men.

    All the retired Colonels in my club agree that is the only way to deal with them. Or, to send some of our bum boats with trinkets for the chiefs, if that does not work. Also, we could send agents to set the tribes of different religions against each other. It always worked in the past.

    I am yours for Queens and my Country,
    Colonel Harry Faversham, Rtd.

  18. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Strange. Yes Scotland and the Scottish Government seem to disagree with you:

    “The current Scottish Government supports CONTINUED membership of NATO”

    Are they, or you, wrong?”

    Sigh. We’re currently a member because we’re currently the UK. The SG seek to arrange Scottish membership during the 18-month negotiation period so there will be no interruption. In other words, membership will continue.

    I normally assume anyone pretending to be this stupid is a troll. I’d watch your step if I were you.

  19. heedtracker says:

    If England does veto a Scottish NATO application, they’ll do it on the grounds that Scotland has been vitrually demilitarised anyway and by Westminster to boot.

    All that’s actually left up here is one RAF base, Lossiemouth, and of course Faslane, Coulport Trident submarine pens. They’ve even shifted most of the Scottish army to Belfast. Taking the piss isn’t the half of it.

    Cons said vote Tory for more Scottish military investment but since they lost the last GE, they’ve closed RAF Leuchars and Kinloss and reneged completely on their “vote Tory and we’ll build a “super barracks” for Scottish military returning from Germany” fraud. It’s all just one more giant fraud on a Scotland that can’t even vote them out of power. Rule Britannia.

  20. a2 says:

    “I’m” not sure where the extra “s” came from 😮

  21. galamcennalath says:

    All these issues for iScotland that BT/MSM keep hammering away at in desperation assume there is just one continuing state, the UK. It will be the dissolution of a bipartite Union. Both iScot and rUK will have things to sort out jointly, cooperating for mutual benefit. So basically it’s all shite!

  22. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    DFTFT

  23. Cèitean says:

    Stu,

    The MoD has been planning, ask Min AF to show you his draft paper…dated Sep 2012.

  24. heedtracker says:

    Scotland has to pay £3.5 bn for UKOk military punching above it’s weight but barely half of that £3.5 is actually invested in Scotland. Another union dividend, for a Westminster hell bent on war with Middle Eastern countries they don’t understand or give a shit about.

  25. Willie John says:

    And if we did not submit an application how long would it be before there was an invitation to join?

  26. Billy McKinlay says:

    “We’re currently a member because we’re currently the UK”

    Oh right. So if Scotland is currently a member why did you claim in the article that Scotland “isn’t a member”?

    Very odd.

    Of course, your claim in the article is correct – Scotland is not a member of Nato.

    And your subsequent u-turn to saying it is a member after all (now its been pointed out to you that the SNP think it is a member) is false – Scotland is no more a member of Nato than England or Wales or Yorkshire or Cornwall or anywhere else in the UK.

    Don’t bother threatening me, now that you’ve been publicly embarrassed on here rather than the usual sycophantic grovelling from your followers that you enjoy I’d expect nothing less than a banning, as always with anyone who dares to question any of your claims.

  27. Cath says:

    Such a move is seen as so devastating that the Ministry of Defence has not seriously drawn up plans as to how to respond, relying instead on a hope that the No campaign will win.”

    Makes you wonder if they’ve drawn up plans for anything.

    Sir, what if there’s a war on British soil?

    Oh, that’s far too devastating to even consider?

    What if someone nukes us?

    Oh good God, pass the smalling salts and a sugary tea…

  28. G H Graham says:

    The solution is easy.

    Change “Times Roman” for “Comic Sans”.

    Problem solved.

    Any questions?

  29. Jim Marshall says:

    I am sure that when I am out canvassing for YES on the doorsteps tonight nobody will raise this topic as being an issue. Note I have not said issue as being a topic. Absolute non news story.

  30. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Oh right. So if Scotland is currently a member why did you claim in the article that Scotland “isn’t a member”?”

    Because it isn’t. The UK (of which Scotland is a part) is the member. So the UK flag is the flag that gets flown. Scotland’s flag doesn’t get flown because it isn’t the member state. For the same reason NATO doesn’t fly the flags of Wales, Northern Ireland, Cornwall, Lancashire or my mum, all of which are also currently part of the UK.

    People don’t get banned here for disagreeing. They get banned for having an IQ below 50. Cheerio.

  31. Join the dots in Murdochland, a fantasy land next-door to Mibbeland where reality rarely treads.

    We seem to have forgotten that Scots taxes are being used to build and supply a brand new RAF Base in Ulster, possibly to watch the Greenland / Iceland /Scotland GAP.?

    The Strategic Gap covered until Dec 2014 by RAF Leuchars – when Westminster Closes Leuchars.

    Tories are devious bastards but not totally stupid.
    When RAF Ulster is complete – RAF LOSSIEMOUTH – CLOSES.

    Waken-up guys and smell the future if they vote “NO”.

  32. heedtracker says:

    @ donald anderson, same British Empire sent Royal Navy gun boats up the Liffey and shelled Dublin City center to smithereens in 1919. Tis all forgotten about now, to be sure.

  33. G H Graham says:

    Billy McKinlay,

    Did you miss your medicine’s this morning?

    The people of Scotland are members/a protectorate of NATO because we are currently UK citizens & the UK is a member of NATO.

    There is no Saltire flying at NATO HQ because Scotland is not represented as a separate country.

    When independent & accepted as a member of NATO, no doubt a Saltire will be permitted to fly outside NATO HQ.

    Now, which part of that primary 5 lesson didn’t you understand?

  34. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    @G H Graham says:
    The solution is easy.
    Change “Times Roman” for “Comic Sans”.
    Problem solved.

    Fonts are very important.

    CameronB told me that. 🙂

  35. ronnie anderson says:

    lets not TICK TALK on BTs Media’s agenda, we have our own agenda. Currency & NHS has been done to death. They want us to be distracted.

  36. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “And if we did not submit an application how long would it be before there was an invitation to join?”

    About eight seconds, and in a rather panicky tone…

  37. YouMe says:

    Quick correction. All body typefaces on this site are sans-serif, specifically either helvetica, arial, verdana, tahoma or any other sans-serif if the user doesn’t have and of the former.

    The serifs used for the headers are either georgia or any other serif if the user doesn’t have it – but I don’t see any serifs being displayed.

    This is going by your CSS. Times would only display if users don’t have georgia and the site used header tags.

    You never know, this could be picked up by BT to be their final home stretch argument. They’ve most certainly been more trivial in the past.

  38. raineach says:

    Not getting into NATO would not be a problem for me, so it’s hardly a scare story

  39. pete says:

    I have never been into politics , but since this referendum debate
    kicked of , I have taken a keen interest on every aspect, and NOW I AM SEEING VERY CLEARLY WHAT IS GOING DOWN HERE. The establishment is quaking it, the country is up to its neck in debt!!! The ruk is standing on the edge of an abyss,
    this is why evey one of them are saying stupid shit, they are shitting them selfs becouse they know whats coming if its a YES
    WIN. They cant afford to loose Scotland the land of benefits and subsidised to the hilt by Westminster ?????? Lies lies lies,
    we are whats keeping there heads above the water. Westminster take note , never ever bite the hand that feeds you..

  40. Frank Anderson says:

    Billy, in simple terms Scotland is a member currently as is England Wales etc as part of the UK membership. We want to continue our membership as an Independent country. Now who’s embarrassed? Sometimes you have to pause before you take to the keyboards,

  41. Capella says:

    @a2 It’s Helvetica but probably Stu types in Times and WordPress converts for the web?
    Re NATO, every time these bullies announce that Scotland won’t be able to join something I think about it for a few seconds, shrug shoulders and decide I don’t actually care. These matters are peripheral to be debate until the important issue is settled. Should Scotland be an independent country?

  42. K1 says:

    For the love of sanity please Stu…do something about the troll, it’s an infestation crossing two threads.

    We don’t have time for this crap anymore.(rant over)

  43. Colin says:

    @Billy McKinlay
    “Scotland is no more a member of Nato than England or Wales or Yorkshire or Cornwall or anywhere else in the UK.”

    Does that mean england will have to queue as well?

  44. Famous15 says:

    Look Rev do not feed the trolls. Any more of this and I am off to read Wee Blue Book.

    BTW no holes in the North Atlantic allowed.OK!

  45. Ken MacColl says:

    Sadly it is some time now since The Times could be considered as “august” or as a “newspaper of record”
    I used to subscribe, acknowledging that its political stance was far from mine but that it was able to separate its news reportage from its editorial. Sadly I found that its press about the referendum issue was consistently verging on a similar level to that of the “Scottish” Daily Mail and that in its Scottish Editor, Angus MacLeod, they had one of the most poisonous and bigoted commentators within the ranks of the unionist press.

  46. Rev Stuart Campbell or Scott Minto ;-

    there are only 3 or 4 MOD Statements every year and it must be possible for someone far more competent than I to find the BBC Parliament Link (IN 2011 OR 2012) when Hammond STATED- WE will build a brand new RAF Base in Northern Ireland.?

    From my faulty memory, I think this was announced on the same day that the Closure of RAF Leuchars was announced.

    Signally, RAF Ulster will be under the NATO Umbrella and Scots are helping pay to be MUGGED.

  47. HandandShrimp says:

    I couldn’t give a toss if NATO said No. It would cost us money to join not save money. They are hardly doing us a favour.

    They can go and find other bits of the rUK to practice bombing and shelling instead.

  48. Marian says:

    Anyone still thinking of voting NO needs to wake up and smell the coffee for it is abundantly clear that the unionists media campaign against independence is all about how protecting the pseudo world power that Westminster likes to kid on it is, and absolutely nothing whatsoever about giving Scotland better economic prospects or better government.

  49. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    @pete says:
    NOW I AM SEEING VERY CLEARLY WHAT IS GOING DOWN HERE.

    Nail on the head.

  50. HandandShrimp says:

    PS I wasn’t entirely in one accord with the SNP change on policy on that one 🙂

  51. Kev says:

    And whoever is daft enough to contemplate vetoing Scotland’s membership better be prepared to draw up some pretty hefty contingency plans for relocating the massive Joint Warrior exercise, held twice yearly in Scotland.

    http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2014/march/24/140324-joint-warrior

  52. Breeks says:

    OT- Did I hear right? This online program has Duncan Hotersthal or whatever his name is tomorrow. Mentioned in closing comments. Watch your back Rev Stu.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQtUZwA6UKA

  53. K1 says:

    I see that you have ‘dealt’ wi it already…sigh…and relax.:)

  54. Craig vint says:

    Anachronism. Surely you meant Anchormanism? Sounds like it came straight from the mouth of Mr. Burgundy himself

  55. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    @K1 says:
    For the love of sanity please Stu…do something about the troll

    Stu just needs to set up a Troll auto-ban feature that disappears all past, present, and future posts from anybody who types “Very odd.” on a line by itself. 🙂

  56. Nigel says:

    I would be really happy to see costly and environmentally damaging NATO exercises moved out of Scotland – I can live without fast jets screaming up and down the lochs up here… Bit of peace and quiet when out on the mountains…no more blowing up some of the remotest and beautiful parts of our country in the name of NATO war gaming…Cape Wrath for example…I am sure they could find somewhere on the South Coast to do the same…(evil grin)…

    Anyway, I was wondering if rUK would have to renegotiate/reapply for its NATO membership when we win the referendum…

    http://nairnyes.wordpress.com/

  57. Nick says:

    Heng on a wee minut . . . Ahm Ah Schtoopit r summin?

    In the event of Independence, Scotland as it stands will have the Rocket Range in Uist, and all 4 of the Nuclear Subs wot has got the Nuclear Bombs n stuff right? That makes us kinda powerful negotiating partners right? Either u want us part of NATO or u duzzent – make up ur minds!

    signed
    A Schtoopit Scot

  58. Tattie-bogle says:

    Dear NATO how much does a loaf and two pints of milk cost

  59. Auld Rock says:

    Here’s how to join NATO and EU faster than the speed of light – Offer Mr Putin a new naval base at Scappa Flow, LOL. OK, OK it’s a joke, but the Britnats in MSM really are taking the piss. Fortunately with the new football season under way most of their readers never venture further than the sports pages. As for The Times” we of course mean “The Shetland Times” but as for that London gutter press usurper who reads it up here anyway just a handful of dead head unionists.

    Auld Rock

  60. Auld Rock says:

    Here’s how to join NATO and EU faster than the speed of light – Offer Mr Putin a new naval base at Scappa Flow, LOL. OK, OK it’s a joke, but the Britnats in MSM really are taking the piss. Fortunately with the new football season under way most of their readers never venture further than the sports pages. As for The Times” we of course mean “The Shetland Times” but as for that London gutter press usurper who reads it up here anyway just a handful of dead head unionists.

    Auld Rock

  61. Colin says:

    The desperation of the unionists is getting greater with every day that passes, and the scare stories that they put out with them.
    What I am genuinely worried about, and it may not worry others, is the tampering with the postal votes as they did in 1979, and a terrorist attack somewhere in Scotland followed by a “look we told you so”.
    They are going to do something exceeding more desperate the more they see our wealth slipping away.

  62. Midgehunter says:

    Times Roman?

    I still mostly use another font which is de fault of hairy Al…

    (Grabs coat quick an buggers off)

  63. Tamson says:

    The ‘queue’ word is regularly trotted out regarding EU membership, and it’s just as nonsensical there. Turkey applied to join in 1987, but 19 counties have managed to skip them in the ‘queue’ (20 if you count East Germany)

  64. Tamson says:

    Countries, not counties obviously!

  65. tony Jensen says:

    Can just see The Times returning to broadsheet size in the last weeks before referendum in order to get more scare stories on front page. Incidentally, only Italians go straight to the head of the queue!

  66. seanair says:

    Looking at BBC Scotland teletext there is no mention of this story (Credit one).
    There is however a mention of Labour blogger’s tweet being removed (Credit two).
    Is Boothman on holiday?

  67. heedtracker says:

    Check NATO members, Slovenia, yay! to Iceland, Croatia to Canada, Poland to the USA. Scotland? Nah mate, britnats in England still swivel eyed loony rage, say niet..

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

  68. Murray McCallum says:

    Not joining NATO is a bonus for me, though I suspect the majority of Scots see membership as a good thing.

    The Times’ article is really poor to say the least.

  69. schrodinger's cat says:

    Times Roman?
    Romanus eunt domus

  70. schrodinger's cat says:

    Times Roman?
    Romanus eunt domus

  71. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh dear we cannae join NATO ach well I didnae really want to join that wee club onyway! 😛

    By the way I wonder how relations are within NATO seeing as our glorious navy no longer fulfil their NATO obligation to be part of Nato’s North Atlantic Defence Group or it’s, NATO. Mediterranean Defence Group.

    The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has acknowledged it has not provided a frigate or destroyer for Nato’s maritime group defending the North and East Atlantic since 2009.

    Written answers also reveal the Royal Navy stopped providing either of the ships for Nato’s second standing maritime group in the Mediterranean since 2010.

    And they show that having previously supported three of four minesweeper groups, it now provides just one minesweeper.

    Now you can call me an idiot, well I AM the village idiot around here 😉 , but I’m thinking that dear old “punching above our weight” UK is not exactly punching above its weight at all these days. Dear old UK is all bluster and no knickers! 😛

    http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/14386

    Such a move is seen as so devastating that the Ministry of Defence has not seriously drawn up plans as to how to respond, relying instead on a hope that the No campaign will win.

    I have two things to say about this piece.

    1) Like most people on here I do NOT believe this nonsense for one second. Of course the M.O.D. are making plans for Scottish independence they would really be showing the ultimate height of military incompetence if they were NOT planning for such an event.

    2) Secretly I am actually hoping, against hope, that this statement is actually TRUE! I would just love to see all the faces at the M.O.D. on the 19th of September when the Admirals, Generals and Air Chief Marshals have to start running around like headless chickens trying to build up a plan of action to cater for Scottish independence. 😛

  72. heedtracker says:

    Interesting Finland and Sweden are not in NATO. NATO in Europe is a hard read

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

  73. Jim Thomson says:

    O/T

    Shameless plug follows:

    Someone much cleverer than me put together this playlist on YouTube.

    It’s the Q&A session from our Troon Jim Sillars, Philippa, Ivan & Ben gig last week.

    The main speakers will be added to another YouTube posting over the next day or two.

    Enjoy.

    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0flgxbaS2Rl1MFUmsEHwztIduPHesXFV

  74. JWil says:

    It appears that we are an nonentity yet Scotland has been given the ba’ tae haud, i.e. the entire UK Trident nuclear defence capability.

    I thought that England would clamouring to take the responsibility for that away from us given that we are being run by the N Korean president and yet the latest forecast from the nay sayers suggests a prolonged negotiation before that can happen.

    If Scotland is debarred, or delayed, from NATO membership Putin’s agents will be out full time with their prodding sticks, trying to find the weaknesses in the Wests defences.

    I suppose there are some right b’stards in Sweden the same as in every other country, but before this I had the impression that the Swedes were a pretty enlightened nation.

  75. PeeGee says:

    Scotland, lucky us, is home to the only live bombing range in NATO Europe. Nobody else lets them drop real live bombs on their country for some reason. And for some mad reason the english government only allows bombing to take place in the furthest corner of mainland Scotland from London.

    And some people still insist Scotland isn’t a colony or under occupation.

  76. JWil says:

    Of course Rasmussen is Danish. The Danes, who are also considered to be enlightened.

  77. Chic McGregor says:

    You won’t be in NATO but you will keep the Trident nuclear system as a non Nato member.

    You won’t be in the EU but you’ll be forced to join the Euro as a non EU member.

    You won’t get to keep the pound but the BoE will run your economy.

    You won’t get your pension unless you move to Spain, France etc.

    You won’t get into the rUK unless you come via Ireland.

    You won’t get health care in the rUK unless rUK is still in the EU.

    You won’t get the BBC unless you pay less for it than you do at present.

    Simple and clear.

  78. heedtracker says:

    This ex NATO general sec will no doubt have something to say, if he comes our from under his bed hiding from the “dark forces” waiting to over the free world, if Holyrood gets going properly.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10751728/Scottish-independence-would-be-cataclysmic-for-the-world-ex-Nato-head-warns.html

    Far right ultras like the Torygraph worship old Labour big nobs, which doesn’t bother Scottish labour voters voting No much?

  79. Jimbo says:

    @ Heedtracker:

    “@ donald anderson, same British Empire sent Royal Navy gun boats up the Liffey and shelled Dublin City center to smithereens in 1919. Tis all forgotten about now, to be sure.”

    I wonder if Westminster will organise a centenary celebration?

  80. Brotyboy says:

    Better discipline on the troll front there, everyone.

  81. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry for going O/T but it appears that the pound has been doing rather well today in the currency markets. Oh no wait a minute I think I got that one wrong. It seems that the pound has NOT been doing rather well today in today’s currency markets. Yes that ‘s it! 😛

    http://tinyurl.com/moanj35

  82. YESGUY says:

    The UK/GI gap is THE most important area of NATO.

    It’s been the gateway to the Atlantic for the soviets and a huge danger to USA re-inforcing Europe in times of war.

    If we chose not to join NATO it would still be patrolled more than anywhere else on earth.

    Can’t see NATO leaving us out. On the contrary they would be pretty desperate to have us onside.

    Bullshit scare stories

  83. heedtracker says:

    This ex NATO general sec will no doubt have something to say, if he comes our from under his bed hiding from the “dark forces” waiting to………. over the free world, if Holyrood gets going properly.

    Oops, fill in the gap with, ejaculate, parteeey, pull Wee Georgy oot from under his bed shrieking like a HoL trougher reaching the end of the gravy train in the Lords? It’s always puzzled this observer why Bill Gates had a stiffy for oor George anyway. Go get the gimp Monica?

  84. HandandShrimp says:

    Is it just me or do many of our erstwhile trolls actually seem to be the same person or is there some sort of group think going on at No central?

  85. Macart says:

    @HandandShrimp

    They do tend to like using the term sycophant. Spooky or wot? 😮

  86. heedtracker says:

    @ Jimbo, as my Slovene girlfriend Prof Alisebadas Tonkinski of CIF Guradian always says, “absolutely everyone wants to be ruled by Westminster.”

    He just never writes in his native tongue, if Slovenes do write with their tongues:D

  87. Midgehunter says:

    Scotland sticks up into the north-East Atlantic like a sore thumb.

    It’s surrounded to three quarters by sea which is a major fishing area. The largest deposits of oil in Europe in the North Sea / round Shetland and the huge area west of Scotland are in Scottish waters.

    Any ships, commercial or military, coming over the North Pole or from Russia pass by or through Scottish waters.

    Scotland would, by offering to play the leading role in reconnaissance, surveillance and in part defence of one of the most important areas of Nato be more than welcome.

  88. Lesley-Anne says:

    Anyone wanting to watch the latest Scottish Government’s latest Cabinet meeting in Arbroath can watch it here.

    http://tinyurl.com/nbezu73

  89. Dunx says:

    I case anyone is wondering what Nato AND Russia might really think about the strategic importance of Scotland, please refer to the following map link.It is a reference to “Op. Joint Warrior” and is freely available from “Flot”(the Russian North Atlantic Fleet).Hint; Scotland is the bit that is just above Ireland and over to the right a bit. http://factmil.com/_nw/18/96534344.gif

  90. Dunx says:

    I case anyone is wondering what Nato AND Russia might really think about the strategic importance of Scotland, please refer to the following map link.It is a reference to “Op. Joint Warrior” and is freely available from “Flot”(the Russian North Atlantic Fleet).Hint; Scotland is the bit that is just above Ireland and over to the right a bit. http://factmil.com/_nw/18/96534344.gif

  91. Dunx says:

    I case anyone is wondering what Nato AND Russia might really think about the strategic importance of Scotland, please refer to the following map link.It is a reference to “Op. Joint Warrior” and is freely available from “Flot”(the Russian North Atlantic Fleet).Hint; Scotland is the bit that is just above Ireland and over to the right a bit. http://factmil.com/_nw/18/96534344.gif

  92. Andy-B says:

    Scaremongering from the Times,in “Times Roman”, how original.

    Meanwhile, you’re not going to believe this, I had to read it twice, just in case I was dreaming The ultra unionist and London owned Daily Record, ran, the Yvonne Hamma story today, on page six, and whats more, Torcuil Crichton covered the piece, I know I’m in shock too.

    Its very similar to the article you put up yesterday, Hamma said speaking from her home in Airdrie “Its unfair to call me a racist or bigot, I’m neither.”

    Better Together said, “Views like this, are completely unacceptable.”

    No link I’m afraid, but if you want a full transcript of the article I’ll post it on this stream.

  93. MochaChoca says:

    Bloody hell. I have a family membership of the National Trust for Scotland, but it turns out am I not a member of the National Trust for Scotland after all.

  94. Jack Murphy says:

    Hi Stu–Today’s ‘Referendum TV Live’ was excellent–1pm–2pm.
    Think you may be interested in tomorrow’s lineup –Duncan Wothersall and Patrick Harvie of the Scottish Green Party are some of the guests.
    Here’s the link to today’s archived edition:–

    http://www.referendumtv.net/referendum-tv-live-1908/

  95. Pentland Firth says:

    Today’s edition of the Times is a hoot. It’s almost impossible to turn a page without finding some hysterical Unionist propaganda. Even the Letters page is infected. That said, one of their correspondents (Robert Page of Luton) does hit the nail on the head when he writes of “the dissolution of the UK”.

    Mr Murdoch’s “august” publication now rivals the Telegraph, Daily Mail and the Express for deranged and enraged Brit nattery. Newspaper of record? Maybe once, but it must have been a long time ago. Poor souls, they are keeking themselves.

  96. gerry parker says:

    Oot deliverin leaflets this morning and ma gout’s given me the gyp.

    I thought I detected a bad smell when I came back on here.

    Another one bites the dust.

    Here’s a toast to “absent friends”

    🙂

  97. Chic McGregor says:

    Don’t know if its a case of the Trolls seeing a window of opportunity with the Rev. being otherwise occupied with the WBB or if it that he simply has less time to spend on the Bash the Mole machine at the mo.

    Maybe a bit of both.

  98. Jack Murphy says:

    Sorry Duncan Hothersall not Wothersall at 3:09

  99. Mealer says:

    “You won’t be flying aircraft.Youll be flying by the seat of your pants”.Thats the better together line.They think we’re completely useless.

  100. fred blogger says:

    if things don’t get better, they’ll just have to stay as they are.
    worse things happen @ sea.
    the “status quo”, if only that were true.
    £billions of cuts have been made without announcement via the kind efforts of WM to help people by dropping them deeper into the mire.
    announced cuts after next ge @ least £25bn.
    nato cannot defend us against WM cuts!
    Lesley-Anne
    you mentioned wigtown, this is about whithorn. http://events.yesscotland.net/dourdu/canvassing_and_flyering_isle_of_whithorn

  101. G H Graham says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised to learn soon that a bomb has gone off in some building in or near a major city that was planted by the British security forces in an attempt to convince voters that Islamic terrorists just demonstrated Scotland’s vulnerability.

    I trust the British will do whatever they think is necessary to maintain the status quo because independence means losing 1/3rd of its landmass, about 1/10th of it’s population, possibly up to 15% of it’s tax revenues, a massive loss in foreign expert earnings, the loss of a nuclear weapons system; all combining to put a big dent in their perceived international prestige.

    Countries have waged war on each other for far less than any of that.

  102. heedtracker says:

    The Press and Journal bless em are also bringing out a Wee Blue Book next week, FREE to all. Wonder why?

    P&J also desperate NO headline over grinning Anas holding Thanks banner, why they chopped off the No is another P&J mystery, “Salmond faces demand for ‘straightforward answers'” and “Salmond arguments getting desperate, Cameron Claims.”

    Far right in Aberdeen are getting really excited but their headlines are very weird with one huge one about car accidents,
    “Why £10 million a mile could save cost of a life.”

    Dont ask, P&J wee blue ripoff of WoS, out Monday, everything you need to know, despite same liggers ranting on and on about no straight answers from Salmond.

    teamGB brainwashing, local style.

  103. SNP Govt starts “NEGOTIATIONS” to join NATO on Sept 20th because that was the Mandate supplied by Party Conf.

    10,000 Scots will March with the Orange Order on Sept 13th to oppose bringing back our ancient rights and thousands of jobs back from Ulster.

    After a lifetime fighting for Independence, I will take zero lessons from anyone who doubts my commitment.

    Let me remind you ;-
    I was never a LibDem Candidate.
    I never voted for Clegg in 2010.

    You don`t doubt Stuart Campbell`s commitment and he has already stated that he will abandon us if Scots vote “NO”.

    Whatever the result, I will still be here, fighting to better the Common Weal.

  104. desimond says:

    So we’re no in NATO but we are in the EU?

    To be fair to Billy the Duggie, I can see how such confusion arises and my IQ is above 50, honest I’ve been tested

  105. YESGUY says:

    British forces struggled to keep the peace in NI and that was a country divided. Anyone wishing to attack Scotland would suffer the whole country rising up and overseas support would overwhelm them.

    The worst WM can do now is throw a tantrum and more scares. Old news that we are ALL used to now .

    They have lost this one . They don’t want to accept it but when they do they will be model neighbours .

    Any terrorist attack on Scotland would be the death of the union and any hope of friendship gone. We know that they know that.

    keep calm folks. It’s the auld lion having a last growl before it heads back to its lair.

  106. Edward says:

    On the topic of NATO membership
    I would suggest ignoring the bear trap that the Times has set. Do you actually think that the Times would be inclined to tell a straight fact?

    As has been succinctly pointed out above, Scotland IS in a strategic position, so realistically it would be hair brained for NATO, to ignore Scotland.

    Scotland will be welcomed with open arms into the family of member states, in fact it will be fast tracked at embarrassing speed, to ensure there isn’t a gap.

  107. heedtracker says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8nAEn-r-rc&app=desktop

    There’ll be riots and it’ll start world three and look at the all work John Barrowman’s put in…

  108. Findlay Farquaharson says:

    It wouldnt surprise me if the brit elite establishment have arranged for the likes of colonel gadafi, saddam hussein, kim jong il and others to come out in favour of a yes vote. Oh wait.

  109. desimond says:

    Also, if NATO knock us back, do we get an 8.4% refund on membership fee?
    Kerching!

  110. Dawn in NL says:

    O/T
    The Times also say that the Queen may have problems with divided loyalties! Pair wee wumman, but as she is already Head of State for 32 countries, the sympathy is not really needed, me thinks.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4179376.ece

  111. Peter Macbeastie says:

    As an ex member of HM Forces I can say without fear that anyone will know this to any greater degree; anyone who says the MoD have not planned seriously for the possibility of independence is lying or has no idea how the MoD and the Joint Chiefs of Staff actually work.

    They plan for EVERYTHING. Including things substantially less likely than Scottish independence.

    I heard this pish about NATO come up this morning and to be honest it’s just another bloody groundhog day. We’ve heard all of this shite before. It was shite the first time, it was seen to be shite the first time, and now it’s out again because they’re hoping we’ve all forgotten that it was shite the first time.

    The British Establishment, Better Together and assorted other Nawbags have got NOTHING new. They are out of ideas and they know it. Better yet; millions of Scottish residents know it too.

  112. Marian says:

    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

    (Quote from speech by Josef Goebbels, Propaganda chief of the Third Reich.)

  113. FergusMac says:

    I think we are back at the “continuing state” problem here. It is only in the UK Government’s legal opinion that the region of Scotland, eliminated in 1707 as a nation and subsumed into Greater England, secedes and forms a new country. The remainder of the UK continues merrily along as before, with all treaties and UN seat and such like. Scotland is left with nothing, and has to start completely from scratch, with Her Majesty’s English Government doing everything in its spiteful power to undermine, disadvantage and punish Her Majesty’s Scottish Government and Her Majesty’s Scottish subjects.

    There are other legal opinions that Scottish withdrawal would abrogate the Treaty of Union, and both the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England (with its Welsh Principality and Northern Irish Province) would revert to the status quo ante, with neither having automatic right to all assets and liabilities, treaty obligations etc. As the world is not quite as it was in 1707, we would effectively have two new states, not one.

    In either event, the Kingdom of Scotland, with its resources and strategic location, not to mention a much more realistic and sensible defence policy, would not be left an orphan. We would be wooed until our heads spin.

  114. JLT says:

    To be honest, I don’t think folk give a toss about NATO. I don’t mean that they absolutely do nor care, it’s just not exactly high on our priority list.

    And does anyone truly believe that Scotland won’t be in NATO? Even if a member state decided to veto Scotland, then I think the Scots would just shrug their shoulders and just get on with their lives. And even if the rUK decided to veto Scotland out of sheer spite, then the recriminations will be instant by telling the rUK to get its submarines out of Scotland …PRONTO! No questions asked …remove them instantly. So, even the rUK won’t be so foolish.

    And even if we didn’t join NATO, there is still no way that Russia would ever invade Scotland because of the bitter atmosphere that exists between the UK and Russia. Something tells me that I can’t see England putting up with Russian military sitting in Scotland pointing at England!

    So, it’s a completely bogus story that is absolutely drivel being pushed as a scare story. It is so downright hilarious that I truly wonder what they have in store for us going into the last week. Maybe an invasion of Scotland from Mars or the pits of hell open up under Airdrie …hell …they might even try to scare the Old Firm fans by whispering that both teams are going to amalgamate in an indy Scotland …who knows?

  115. wilma says:

    The more I read of the unionist press, the more I believe they are desperate to keep us. They are rallying every Tom, Dick and Harry to their cause. Why? The same reason we went to war in Iraq. Oil.

  116. Kalmar says:

    Am I the first idiot to point out that it’s Helvetica, actually…

  117. Edward says:

    FergusMac
    Your spot on about ‘little orphan’ Scotland not be left alone.

    I would be inclined to say that in the event of a Yes vote, Scotland will become the very attractive indeed.

    Diplomats will be charging in like flies to a ………..;)

  118. bald eagle says:

    it has just dawned on me the rest of the world are probably reading this site and saying to each other and other world leaders

    the british are saying they punch above their weight and the scots are ripping the shit out of them.

    dawn 2
    if the british send gunboats up the clyde why dont we just cover up the three letters of the bbbc scotland and when the boats are lined up everybody points at them

  119. wilma says:

    If the Trident submarines which are our main contribution to NATO can navigate all over the world, including the North Sea, how come they can’t manage a Firth of Clyde with exploration rigs in it?

  120. Scotspine says:

    Billy McKinlay is McBill on twitter I suspect. He is all over Alex Salmond and Yes Scotland as a mahoosive Unionist troll.

  121. Robert Peffers says:

    @Billy McKinlay says: 19 August, 2014 at 1:25 pm:

    <b"Are they, or you, wrong?

    Neither are wrong, Billy, because you are.

    Scotland is not member of NATO, (as is claimed in the article), but then neither is England, Wales or Northern Ireland and neither doese any of their flags fly outside NATO headquarters.

    BTW: Billy, after the United Kingdom disunites there cannot be a United Kingdom to be a NATO member. Because there are only two signatories on the Treaty of Union paper when Scotland leaves the union has disunited.
    The Status Quo Ante of the Treaty of Union is a return to two independent Parliaments.

  122. Derek M says:

    As someone who thinks we should have nothing to do with NATO since they are no longer the organisation created to defend but now seem hell bent on US led expansionism right up to the Russian borders i would lose no sleep if they told us we couldnt join,but even i realize that because where we are situated it would be madness to not let Scotland join since we are the North Atlantic,and anyway in or out wont stop the US or Russian nuke subs from creeping about our waters playing their silly destroy the world war games,an irrelevance to the question should Scotland be independent and something we the people of Scotland need to decide democratically post a yes vote imo.

  123. wilma says:

    Aye right, we won’t be in NATO but we’ll have Trident submarines up Loch Long.

  124. muttley79 says:

    Why do so many unionists in Scotland take great pleasure in arguing that Scotland will not be a member of the EU, Nato, and whatever else they can think of? They are either basically either, or they genuinely believe Scotland does not exist in any meaningful way, which completely destroys their “Proud Scots” spin. They argue that we are not part of the EU and Nato at the moment! So any EU grant signs in Scotland must be figment of our imaginations; because we are not part of the EU at the moment, according to Brit nats.

  125. Robert Peffers says:

    @Billy McKinlay says: 19 August, 2014 at 1:25 pm:

    http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/what-about-nato

    AND?

  126. muttley79 says:

    doh that should be basically lying..

  127. desimond says:

    @bald eagle

    They brought tanks into George Square with no hesitation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square

  128. Ian Mor says:

    Och, I was enjoying Billy’s stuff. It was banging on a wee bit, but for all the people on here lurking and unsure about the points raised, it was surely voicing some arguments they’ve heard, or views they may hold.

    The dissection was good, the rebuttals were good, sometimes we need things explained two or three times in different ways before it sinks in. Pity, Billy seemed to need more…

    I think the problem was just pushing a point too far and exasperating his ‘debaters’. But I do like to see people come on and argue the toss, isn’t that a help to readers? Not all arguing is trolling, not all trolling is unhelpful.

    Yes, there is a core of frequent posters here, but there are more reading and more who haven’t heard these arguments before. Tiresome, it may be to go over old arguments for some, but its fresh for others.

    So, welcome says I, the more the merrier.. As you see, everyone gets a right good shout.

  129. bald eagle says:

    will I still be a member of the bingo thats what I want to know

  130. Robert Peffers says:

    @Triangular Ears says: 19 August, 2014 at 1:30 pm:

    It’s a sign of The Times…

    Classic! Glad I’d already drank my tea.

  131. Clem Fitzgerald says:

    Hi Stu,

    Great reporting as ever. Many thanks.

    Just wanted to bring to your attention a few things:

    – Nice reference on the Times Roman font, but I think your site uses something akin to Helvetica. Not a specialist on fonts, but I am pretty sure it’s not TNR. Not a biggie admittedly.

    – Anders Fogh Rasmussen is NATO Secretary General, not DG.

    – More importantly, there are two very basic and pretty alarming inaccuracies in the Times article on NATO. Not sure what this means about the rest of the research undertaken by the UK’s “paper of record” for this piece. NATO HQ is in Brussels. To my knowledge Belgium is not a US State. Also there are presently 28 countries in NATO, so without the union jack, the article should be referring to 27, not 26 flags.

  132. muttley79 says:

    Incidentally, what is Ivan Lendl doing in the photo of the article on the Nato question? 😀 😀

  133. chalks says:

    Aye, loads of terrorist attacks have been averted as the terrorists have shat it at the thought of us being in NATO.

    Personally, couldn’t give a toss BUT if you want to have a voice when things are happening, then you should probably be in it, as the majority of worldwide skirmishes involve NATO action…

  134. allen ralston says:

    Ooh i do like a good queue !

  135. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    Non cibos orcus.

  136. bald eagle says:

    desimond

    thats what was written yes the tanks where in the square

    but thats not the whole story

    they dont want you to know about the troops in maryhill barracks handing over weapons to the mobs no way will you read about that listen closely to the old yins and you hear the real story

  137. Dick Gaughan says:

    Chic McGregor says:
    “You won’t be in NATO but you will keep the Trident nuclear system as a non Nato member.”

    Fur hou dae we no jist pit thon Trident thingmies on Ebay?

    “Almost new, never used, one previous owner”

    Bound tae be worth a few bob as scrap. Could pey fur mair WBBs 🙂

  138. desimond says:

    Will there be any auld yins in an Independent Scotland

    I heard Salmond was introducing Jimmy Logans Run!

  139. Flower of Scotland says:

    O/t

    BBBC are really throwing everything at the YES side now. Anti, anti! Just back from delivering the new YES newspaper in Strathmiglo! Told to get lost by a bitter elderly lady and told by an elderly gentleman that he was going to burn it! I asked him to be neighbourly and at least read it first!! We noticed some rather large NO THANKS X in some windows, probably in response to ALL my windows with big YESES and a YES saltire in the garden. However more wee yes stickers in windows, so delighted! I’m still not sure this actually changes peoples minds and the local councillor admits that he hasn’t changed many to YES. Even one is good!

    I still think that sites like this change people,s minds more when they actually see the debates and figures. I recommend Wings to everyone! Well done Stu! You don’t let THEM get away with anything! Keep up the good work!

  140. Jim Marshall says:

    OT. I am alone in thinking that the Labour wallahs in Scotland have gone rather quiet of late. In fact the silence is deafening. They probably see the writing on the wall and are hedging their bets so that after a YES vote they can say they were closet independence supporters all along.

    Jola,Kezia and Jackie seem to be trying to melt in to the background which is obviously very difficult for them!

  141. Col The Viking says:

    My favourite font is ‘Georgia’ – very nice it is too!

  142. Hewitt83 says:

    Deary me FOS!

    I always thought Fife would’ve been one of the big No areas.

    Seems to be a place where they’d vote for a Labour candidate even if it was an upturned mop in a bucket wearing a Red rosette.

    No offence to any Fifers on here!

  143. Col The Viking says:

    Given the level of non-story this is a comment on favourite font is more than apt!

  144. Dick Gaughan says:

    Jim Marshall says:
    “OT. I am alone in thinking that the Labour wallahs in Scotland have gone rather quiet of late. In fact the silence is deafening. They probably see the writing on the wall and are hedging their bets so that after a YES vote they can say they were closet independence supporters all along.”

    “Gaunnae geeza joab, pal, Ah wis jist kiddin, so Ah wiz, honest, wid Ah lie tae ye?”

  145. Jim Marshall says:

    Flower of Scotland 4.16

    “I still think that sites like this change people,s minds more when they actually see the debates and figures. I recommend Wings to everyone! Well done Stu! You don’t let THEM get away with anything! Keep up the good work!”

    Absolutely right Flower, and when the WBB hits the streets it will be all over. Nice meeting you at the BBC demo.

  146. bald eagle says:

    about the WBB

    maryhill & springburn have just opened a yes shop in maryhill
    who is the closest to deliver them a few thousand

    heres a few estates that need the facts

    possil
    wyndford
    gilshie
    springburn
    milton
    cadder
    summerston
    blackhill

    these are all deprived areas and its these people that are going to tell wastemonster to F$£k off so who can deliver

  147. bald eagle says:

    does a chocolate font count

  148. You know when they make these stupid claims like Scotland won’t be part of NATO, why don’t we just say OKAY then, it’ll save us a few bob. Then see them falling over themselves trying to make us look bad using the very opposite argument.

  149. Jim Marshall says:

    Dick Gaughan4.25

    “Gaunnae geeza joab, pal, Ah wis jist kiddin, so Ah wiz, honest, wid Ah lie tae ye?”

    Like Yosser only a new series ” The Girls From The Black Lie Stuff”

  150. I heard a great question for the NO campaign.

    Do you know of one Country that has gained its independence from the UK (British Empire) who has asked if they could please come back?

  151. Hewitt83 says:

    Similar to Bald Eagle.

    Yes have just opened a hub on Ellon Road, Bridge of Don, Aberdeen.

    WBB needs to get there also!

  152. Grouse Beater says:

    Stuart said:
    People don’t get banned here for disagreeing. They get banned for having an IQ below 50. Cheerio.

    Wonderful riposte. My wife and I are still chuckling.

  153. Tom Foyle says:

    Given the ALLEGED reports of Pres. Putin going all first-strike on us, Perhaps NATO membership wouldn’t be such a brilliant idea anyway. One less target for him to worry about, several more megatons for Englandshire to have wee nightmares about. Every cloud…

  154. Emma says:

    Please don’t ban me for being stupid, I’m trying not to be but when I looked into the Nato thing for my own purposes, I discovered this on the NATO website “NATO membership is open to “any other European state in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area.”” Given that our maritime borders need to be sorted (movement of them by Blair to appropriate some oil fields) and we may not, initially, have any forces, my conclusion was that we wouldn’t be accepted into NATO until both these elements were sorted especially after it was reported that SG were in informal discussions with NATO and would have “to resolve military or territorial disputes with other members before joining.” I do agree that it is ridiculous to suppose that we won’t be welcomed with open arms but had supposed that sorting our maritime borders and building a defence force would take longer than 18 months – am I wrong?

  155. bald eagle says:

    oh i forgot to mention at 4;29

    kelvinside

    labour and the likes it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb thats where the money is im all right thank you very much now f£$k off

  156. creag an tuirc says:

    OT: Oh, wee Drunken Motherfall is on referendum TV the morra for anyone that’s interested.

  157. Jimbo says:

    @ Muttley79:

    “Why do so many unionists in Scotland take great pleasure in arguing that Scotland will not be a member of the EU, Nato, and whatever else they can think of?”

    Aye, you can just visualise them punching the air with glee at any news of something that is detrimental to Scotland and Scotland’s people.

    They’re a very strange breed indeed.

  158. muttley79 says:

    @Jimbo

    I am pretty sure I read somewhere that SLAB MPs were celebrating when RBS and the Bank of Scotland went bust.

  159. bald eagle says:

    At an art auction in Edinburgh, Scotland, a wealthy American lost his wallet containing £20,000 [$45,000]. He announced to the gathering that that he would give a reward of £200 to the person who found it.

    From the back of the hall a Scottish voice shouted, ‘I’ll give £250.’

  160. Grouse Beater says:

    Muttley: I am pretty sure I read somewhere that SLAB MPs were celebrating when RBS and the Bank of Scotland went bust.

    Correct – it will go down in Scotland’s history under the category, ‘Labour’s Perpetual Ignominy.’

  161. donald anderson says:

    @ Baldy Eagle
    desimond

    “thats what was written yes the tanks where in the square
    but thats not the whole story they dont want you to know about the troops in maryhill barracks handing over weapons to the mobs no way will you read about that listen closely to the old yins and you hear the real story!£

    I worked in Pilkington’s Fibreglass factory, Possilpark, for six years before they closed it and moved it down to England in 1969. As a shop steward I learnt from the auld yins the stuff I never learned later at uni as a mat stud. They all told me – and I heard it in pubs, etc, in auld Maryhill, that the HLI burnt the Union Jack and marched to join the rioters in George Square. They were stopped in Garscube Road by (Lord) Manual Shinwell and (Sir) Patrick Dolan, etc, and told to go back to barracks, hand in their weapons and surrender. Nothing, they were promised, would happen to them. The “leaders” were charged with mutiny and given heavy sentences. I saw nothing of this in any textbook, or Labour Histories. Lord Shinwell avoided the riots by running back to the Tame union office to “protect” their papers.

    (Lord) Kirkwood, who told the rent protestors the rents would rise “over his dead body”. When he came back from the London gravy train the wimmen protesters wanted to know why he was still alive.

    Still, I am glad that Tam Devine has finally learnt something from us auld yins and has turned oot the right side up.

  162. desimond says:

    @Jimbo @Muttley79

    Scots Gov: Will you approve our budget?
    Scots Lab: We want 10’000 Apprenticeships
    Scots Gov: Good idea, we can give you 25’000 apprenticeships
    Scots Lab: We abstain!

    That said everything about SLAB for me in a co-operative Scotland.

  163. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    The Times/SundayTimes have long been plummeting down to tabloid standards and even a cursory look at how they operated and sold out their own source during the Chris Huhne affair tells you all you need to know about their general level of ‘journalism’ and how trusted they should be now.

    How Murdoch hack Isabel Oakeshott cold-bloodedly sold out her friend for money

    http://tompride.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/how-murdoch-hack-isabel-oakeshott-cold-bloodedly-sold-out-her-friend-for-money/

    The Sunday Times jails its source

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/nick-cohen/2013/03/the-sunday-times-jails-its-source/

    You certainly don’t need to take a side on the rights or wrongs of what Huhne did to know full well that there used to be a time when ALL the press would have been fucking outraged that one of their number so blithely sold out their own “confidential” source. Those confidential sources used to be the lifeblood of the papers and scoops and Editors used to do anything to protect them. That was until phone hacking became the quick and ‘easy’ route to a scoop. Not something that ended particularly well for Murdoch’s hacks and not something exactly guaranteed to increase the already pitiful levels of trust in the press.

  164. desimond says:

    @donald anderson @ Baldy Eagle

    Wow.
    The quicker our kids and their kids are taught true Scottish History the better.

  165. bald eagle says:

    An Englishman and a Scotsman go to a pastry shop.

    The Englishman whisks three cookies into his pocket with lightning speed.
    The baker doesn’t notice.

    The Englishman says to the Scotsman:
    “You see how clever we are? You’ll never beat that!”

    The Scotsman says to the Englishman:
    “Watch this, a Scotsman is always cleverer than an Englishman.”

    He says to the baker,
    “Give me a cookie, I can show you a magic trick!”

    The baker gives him the cookie which the Scotsman promptly eats.
    Then he says to the baker:
    “Give me another cookie for my magic trick.”

    The baker is getting suspicious but he gives it to him. He eats this one too.

    Then he says again:
    “Give me one more cookie… ”

    The baker is getting angry now but gives him one anyway. The Scotsman eats this one too.

    Now the baker is really mad, and he yells:
    “And where is your famous magic trick?”

    The Scotsman says:
    “Look in the Englishman’s pocket!”

  166. fred blogger says:

    today alex neil msp
    reiterated the threat of a no vote to the nhs.
    dr lucy reynolds in her youtube vid re health and social care act.
    she pointed out the true reasons for PFI was not only to make vast profits from the nhs budget, but also provide a millstone around the neck of the nhs.
    i was shocked when alex neil msp accounted that millstone for the scottish nhs is £220m pa!
    money that could otherwise be used to treat the sick!

  167. desimond says:

    @bald eagle

    Daily Mail headline

    Fat Lazy Scot eats while English toil!

  168. Jimbo says:

    @ Muttley79:

    yep, I read that too.

    i,m sure it was the boy MacWhirter who reported it.

  169. Lesley-Anne says:

    I’m sorry for going O/T folks but I’ve just read what is apparently happening Cumnock when Better Thanks/ NO Together/ Project Feart/ whatever have been canvassing there. This is utterly shocking and disgusting they should be named and shamed but of course the compliant BBC and MSM will be blind to all these implied threats!

    http://tinyurl.com/mbv3gz5

  170. With so many unknown numbers of “Missing Ballot Boxes” in Scotland – and thousands of Ulster Orange Order Marchers here in Scotland only a few days before the IndyRef – can anyone think of a way to RIG THE BALLOT.?

    Yet, the SLAB scab Councillors in Embra allowed this fiasco to take place.?
    I wonder if this was no accident.

    I also wonder how many Postal Votes and/or “Proxy Vote Nominees” are registered from England and/or Ulster.?

    Is anybody checking validity or numbers.

  171. I am stunned at this. Happy.

    http://radicalindependence.org/2014/08/19/radical-independence-campaign-18k-canvass-sample-released/

    I hadn’t even heard of this group. But they are YES.

  172. bald eagle says:

    donald anderson

    after the troops got back to barracks they all rioted
    thats why they got very stiff sentences for destroying government property

    they also held a few officers hostage and kicked the shit out off them for betraying the folk of glasgow if it wasnt for the tanks the city chambers was getting burnt to the ground with everyone inside

  173. Lesley-Anne says:
    19 August, 2014 at 5:18 pm
    I’m sorry for going O/T folks but I’ve just read what is apparently happening Cumnock when Better Thanks/ NO Together/ Project Feart/ whatever have been canvassing there. This is utterly shocking and disgusting they should be named and shamed but of course the compliant BBC and MSM will be blind to all these implied threats!

    http://tinyurl.com/mbv3gz5

    =======================

    What I have seen on the link posted by Lesley-Anne is disgusting. The police should be investigating this.

  174. Flower of Scotland says:

    @Hewitt83

    This part of Fife is Con/Dem with a sprinkling of Labour! They get very annoyed with YES and I’m banned from discussing YES in the local pub by some NOs. Not Easy! But think about me on sept 18th when YES wins!

    NATO another scare story and radio Scotland said that the currency Union is back on the agenda! Jeez, Jings, Help Ma Boab! Canny take anymore currency talk!

  175. bald eagle says:

    flower of scotland 5;22

    I wonder what would happen if everyone on here sent this to all
    news channels world wide

    the bӣ$%^&s would plead for us to go independent with bells and whistles attached

  176. I’m a Fifer. What pairt of Fife are you in Flower of Scotland?

    How can they ban you from talking about YES in a pub. The landlord can ban people if he likes but the punters, no.

  177. Lesley-Anne says:

    I agree James, thanks for reminding me. I’ve tweeted all the TV news rooms about this but forgot the police I’ll away and do that now. 😉

    Before I go though I have to recount the irony of all ironies in my view.

    Drumchapel Foodbank urgently needs donations of food/toiletries. Leave donations in box inside front door Sainsbury’s,GW Retail Park. Pls RT

    That folks is, if you didn’t know was a tweet from someone that I read earlier. What you do NOT know is that the person who sent the tweet is a NAW voter! 😛

    Oh the irony of ironies. Don’t you just love it when they are so blind that they are unable to see the hilarity of the situation. By that I mean of course the fact that they are supporting NAW the root cause of the need for food banks in the FIRST place! 😀

  178. heedtracker says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/19/lord-birt-scotland-bbc-independent

    Woohoo! Stick it on barge and float it off down the Clyde.

  179. bjsalba says:

    NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen will step down after a NATO summit in Wales later this year.

    Former Norwegian Premier Jens Stoltenberg will lead the military alliance starting in October.

    His opinion? (Said in reference to Ukraine, but note the careful wording)
    “I want to express my support that NATO does not accept the changing of borders by force within Europe,”

    How come Westminster can only get outgoing officials to say it will be difficult?

    If I remember correctly they wanted Barosso in this job, yes?

  180. fred blogger says:

    no camp reveals, that alex salmond reveals, that the £ would be a transitional currency, just in case naw’s don’t have access to a dictionary, it means be in use for a limited period of time.
    couldn’t the no camp work that out on their own?

  181. Tom Foyle says:

    G H Graham
    I made a similar point about a false flag designed to scare people into voting NO on another channel (canna mind which one), about a month ago and was shouted down by several people for being a paranoid conspiracy theorist, I also commented something about tanks in the middle of Edinburgh following a successful YES vote and was told not to be so ridiculous, such a thing would never happen. But, as we draw closer to the day, I’m seeing more and more desperation from BT and I’m glad I’m not the only paranoid, conspiracy-minded nutter out there.

  182. David Mooney says:

    Some familiar faces in last nights Bitter Together campaign broadcast.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04dw399/referendum-campaign-broadcast-18082014

    Either they are struggling to get people to speak up for the No vote or they have a very low budget to produce this crap.

  183. heedtracker says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/19/scottish-independence-bbc-scotland-income
    You can see why Times liggers can bash out any old rubbish about NATO

    “Those who will vote for independence identify and expect many gains. But many of the advantages that the most creative and inspiring talents in Scotland have enjoyed for 300 years – of making a massive impact on a big stage to global acclaim – will be lost.”

    Oh no, no more Family guy, Cash in the Attic, Question Nigel Farage Time, Sarah Smith will have to move back to London for that big stage global acclaim, which will be lost if we vote for Scotland.

    Whatever happens on the 18th Sept, England will still be the greatest country the world has ever seen.

  184. Lesley-Anne says:

    I really do wish heedtracker that all those numpties who pop their head above the parapet would STOP making us promises both we and them know they can NEVER keep! 😛

  185. bald eagle says:

    flower of scotland
    lesley anne

    well thats nbc sent a copy let you know if I get anything back
    dont hold your breath

  186. Tam Jardine says:

    We seem to worry a lot In Scotland about what these large international bodies like Nato think. It seems relatively simple that regardless of supposed opposition at this point in time (insulting as it is given Scotland’s contribution over a long period of time) these same organisations will, following a Yes vote completely change their tune. Is it in Nato’s interests for Scotland to be a member?

    Few big organisations like shrinking, and the prospect of a Scottish navy taking care of this gap seems eminently sensible from their point of view. The Russian naval incursion oft mentioned will not have passed without a fair amount of hand-wringing so I would think they will be pleased to have a member able to cope with their own waters better than the current setup.

    And if they don’t want us as a member then fair enough – it seems a strange thing to factor into our decision making process. As for getting rid of trident – it is untenable for trident to remain in ‘foreign’ waters for the rUK – if the Yes campaign were not dead against keeping Trident we would be getting fed the line ‘Blow for Salmond as Trident set to leave Scotland following Yes vote’ Or some such pish. Nothing would surprise me now.

    We have a decision to make and then work with the consequences – it is for others to decide how they respond after the decision is made.

    Your point is well made though Stu – and the idea that all manner of international bodies are going to behave petulantly against their own interests is risible.

  187. Chic McGregor says:

    @bald eagle
    “about the WBB

    maryhill & springburn have just opened a yes shop in maryhill
    who is the closest to deliver them a few thousand

    heres a few estates that need the facts

    possil
    wyndford
    gilshie
    springburn
    milton
    cadder
    summerston
    blackhill

    these are all deprived areas and its these people that are going to tell wastemonster to F$£k off so who can deliver”

    Hold up there. These areas, by the canvassing accounts we are hearing, are something like 65%+.

    If the book is capable of turning or persuading those in middle class areas, something which it will be crucial to assess, and very quickly, then those areas would be the more beneficial targets.

    We need to do feedback exercises on selected designated areas. No time for fancy controlled exercises.

    I am thinking of:

    ‘Hi are you undecided?’

    If no move on.

    If Yes:

    ‘Would you like to take this book free book and read it? If not it isn’t a problem.

    There is a stamped return card with it which if you could tick the appropriate box and pop in the post.’

    Card would read:

    ‘I have read the book and I am now voting Yes

    I have read the book and I am now voting No

    I have read the book and I am still undecided.’

    One tick and posting all that is required.

    Cards would have, preferably, a central return address.

    Cards would be coded for expected income classification by area (clearly subjective).

    eg Social housing schemes red lion
    Middle class area blue lion.

    Participating canvassers would do an equal number in both.

    Whether 5 each, 10 each, 20 each or whatever.

    A picture could quickly then be built up from returns as to which is more effectual.

    This would not be a delaying thing, distribution would go on as folk seem fit, but would provide real time feed back for possible later strategic advisories.

    Distributors would simply carry out the exercise as part of their first ‘run’.

  188. Lesley-Anne says:

    To be honest BA every one of the British news rooms will automatically IGNORE this story. It’s just us mad cybernats making stuff up, it never really happened. Didn’t you get the e-mail about this? 😛

    Well it may not have happened in the wee brains of BBC, STV, SKY etc but it certainly DID happen to the elderly folks in Cumnock who are now doing the hoarding!

  189. YESGUY says:

    James Caithness….. bloody hell. If those figures are accurate then it’s exactly how we all have said it is out there. I’m shaking.

    I always believed the polls where “fixed” and never hoped to see a majority YES in the MSM , but this is a huge poll over the country and if we don’t get this mentioned by the MSM then we have at least a wee bit oh relief about being paranoid.

    Well done RIC . You young ones make me so proud. If any of you are on Wings then THANK YOU .

  190. Jim says:

    “Iceland, the sole member that does not have its own standing army, joined on the condition that it would not be expected to establish one. However, its strategic geographic position in the Atlantic made it an invaluable member. It has a Coast Guard and has recently contributed a voluntary peacekeeping force, trained in Norway for NATO.”
    ________________
    Very interesting considering Scotland’s strategic importance?

  191. fred blogger says:

    and then there was the Y2K scare what happened the next day, nothing.
    if it was gonna rain, it still did, the fridge still broke down, as did the car, and i still couldn’t cook.
    before anything different can happen we must have POWER.

  192. heedtracker says:

    @ Lesley-Anne, have you ever seen such a mad campaign before? No wonder they say referendums are not like normal elections.
    From http://wingsoverscotland.com/friends-like-these-2/
    to
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/19/scottish-referendum-values-border-tories-election-scots-british-social-democratic

    “The song I would sing to Scotland now is Jacques Brel’s mournful Ne Me Quitte Pas.”

    Polly is irony impaired, YES voters aren’t.

  193. Proud Cybernat says:

    O/T – Apologies folks.

    I found this document:

    http://tinyurl.com/kwymenq

    concerning private healthcare provision in England, financed by the NHS and managed/regulated by Monitor.

    From the PDF:

    The NHS provider licence: information for independent
    providers

    Pricing Conditions

    We publish the National Tariff, which applies to all providers of NHS-funded services with limited exceptions.
    The pricing conditions will require licensed providers to
    comply with the tariff and providers may be subject to our enforcement powers if those conditions are breached.
    To set prices appropriately, these conditions enable
    us to collect information on costing from all providers of NHS-funded care. We have not yet determined the scope or timing of information collections from independent
    providers.

    So, we are to assume that these private healthcare firms will be more efficient than the NHS, thus saving (according to Virgin Healthcare) the NHS money. But how exactly will these private healthcare companies like Virgin Healthcare make a profit? By being competitive of course. And with very little power to set prices for particular services/procedures, they will inevitably have to cut corners.

    Cutting corners costs lives. That is the danger of the NHS outsourcing services to private healthcare companies. And what happens to the NHS itself when, for example, 90% of its services are outsourced to a whole array of private healthcare providers? The NHS as we know it will be gone. In its place will be private healthcare companies (owned by the rich and powerful) being paid rich rewards for providing NHS services.

    Backdoor privatisation.

  194. fred blogger says:

    heedtracker
    the remarkable thing about this campaign is that we have managed to stay relatively sane and grounded!

  195. Nana Smith says:

    @Lesley-Anne

    That is desperate stuff, our elderly being scared witless. Someone must let YES and the SNP know about this.

    BT will stoop to the lowest levels to keep their gravy train on track.

  196. fred blogger says:

    Proud Cybernat
    yes, it’s all in this vid.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkTnCtg_Omk

  197. heedtracker says:

    @ Lesley-Anne, oddly enough vote Naw Birt’s life peer Baron Birt now. Didn’t he block a BBC in Scotland Newsnight because it might make Scottish types look at independence? Charming chap, perfect for the beeb, shoe in for the Lords. I say.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birt,_Baron_Birt

  198. twenty14 says:

    Have just stuck the RIC results on FB – lets spread the word folks ” we’ll be coming, we’ll be coming, we’ll be coming down the road ” 🙂

  199. bald eagle says:

    CHIC McGREGOR

    i GET WHAT YOUR SAYING bloody( hell caps on by them selfs)some off the people in these estates work for the people in kelvinside
    office staff
    warehouse workers
    drivers you get what i mean they could leave this wee book all around the work place

    i’ve been in some off the buildings and you can tell they are screeming out for this stuff i cant even get in with a badge on

    now if i had these books its not my fault if my carrier bag bust open would it

    if one fell out my pocket in the lift would you not pick it up if you saw my hands where full

    if they get delivered I might even get myself banned from these buildings

  200. Chic McGregor says:

    P.S. OK already I see several flaws in the above suggestion, but you get my drift that if targetting is required, which unless we get every household covered, it is, it is rather important to get the most out of it we can.

  201. heedtracker says:

    @ fred blogger, speak for yourself, I’m in therapy:D Isn’t just so very BettertogetherBBC creepy, that Baron Birt’s glorious House of Lordness is left off his own personal bonkers version of ProjectFear? Baron Birt, what a dick, but there’s probably a Lord Dick too.

  202. Cag-does-thinking says:

    The patent stupidity of these claims is that if Scotland wasn’t in NATO they would have to ask our permission to fly across our skies or for their ships to use our waters which would be massively inconvenient for them, not to mention having a base here it would look rather silly having a NATO base in a non-NATO country. Imagine fighters being scrambled over Russian jets over Norway and the chase having to be discontinued over Scottish waters. That stupidity is the main reason that an accomodation will be found. It’s worth repeating that if Scotland leaves the Uk then the UK isn’t the UK anymore. Whatever they might like to say in Westminster it isn’t completely certain that the rest of the UK is a member of anything. They just have lawyers that assert that. The proof will be how each organisation reacts to the split of the UK. I wouldn’t be surprised if the biggest threat to the pound turns out not to be Scottish independence but perhaps an unwillingness of the EU to renegotiate treaties that Maggie Thatcher got them to sign at the point of a metaphorical gun. Now it is the UK that needs the EU to be happy with the current concessions and they just might turn out to be less amenable to rUK than they think. I’ve long thought this is the real reason for the in/out referendum in 2017. They may have to make a difficult choice over the currency themselves. Wonder what their plan B would be?

  203. Brian Mchugh says:

    Anyone know what has happened to making ‘Scotland Yet’ available? Was supposed to happen yesterday. I posted this on Bella…

    “brianmchugheng on August 19, 2014 at 17:13
    Any news on ‘Scotland Yet’ being made available?… Robyn announced it at the press conf for a yesterday release, but still nothing as far as i’m aware?

    ps. What is the issue with Vimeo instead of Youtube? (Should be on Youtube, because of handheld devices with the App)… both would be better… when I helped fund this, it was in the knowledge that its ultimate purpose was to reach and inform as many people as possible.”

  204. bald eagle says:

    lesley anne

    it’s not BA it’s BE

    and it’s not bbc it’s Nbc in america ive been in touch with them before and they used what i sent them

    it was a very nice lady that only bloody phoned me to ask me to send a email and she would phone back as soon as she could time wise if she can use what i sent in future

    as i said dont hold your breath

  205. fred blogger says:

    heedtracker
    LOL either that, or COL. 🙂

  206. galamcennalath says:

    @YESGUY

    I’m not surprised by those amazing RIC canvas results. It’s all focused on the poorest and most deprived demographic and all evidence it that the higher up the social ladder you climb, the more popular NO becomes.

    Also, age is a NO enhancing factor. And to be sadly honest, the poorest people live shorter lives. This too must boost the RIC YES figures.

    RIC, SSP, Labour for Indy, etc need to focus on getting this demographic out and voting.

  207. Chic McGregor says:

    Our ideal target recipients are not an already Yes voters to make them more Yes.

    It is wavering undecideds who are capable of being persuaded by the Rev.’s rational arguments to become Yessers.

    Or

    Soft No’s who might be persuaded either to Yes or ‘no vote’.

    Obviously, having said that, known activist or even just enthusistic Yessers who would make be likely to ‘evangelise’ with the book, should also get them.

    On that last note, might it also be a good idea to have a little accompanying slip which says:

    “If you know of some undecided people who might benefit from reading this book. Remember that there are extra books you can pick up in your local Yes shop”.

  208. @Brian Mchugh

    Scotland Yet online should be this evening.

  209. Roland Smith says:

    I hope they decide not to let us into NATO. I would like to see the first Scottish Gove rnment budget roughly a billion for defence as is the case in Eire. Maybe an extra 500 million for the Navy and Maritime surveillance aircraft and sesrch and rescue due to our longer coast. That will save two billion a year. Eire, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden and Finland are not in NATO so its not compulsory.

  210. Brian Mchugh says:

    Cheers CH.

  211. David Smith says:

    OT. I just wanted to give a well earned thanks to Yes East Kilbride for the huge number of hoghly visible Yes placards regulary spaced on lamp posts all round the town centre. Fair raised my spirits when I saw them today. Big thumbs up to my old homeys!

  212. fred blogger says:

    heedtracker
    ps http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/19/lord-birt-scotland-bbc-independent
    as long as the radio still works, i don’t care.

  213. Graeme says:

    I’m an English Tory unionist and even I think the no side talks absolute rubbish. It’s cringeworthy. The British govt. knows Scotland would be a wealthy Northern European country like any other. I don’t believe she would or could be the socialist utopia that’s often spoken of, but she would certainly be wealthy and would have no trouble joining any international club she likes. Yes, Spain is a risk but it’s not a big risk.

    The question is simply do Scots want to share a country with the English, Welsh and Irish or do they not. If not, fair enough. Hard not to take it as a kick in the teeth but there it is.

    The question is most definitely not whether Scotland can be a successful independent nation, that’s certain. She could be marginally better off or marginally worse off, but she’d still be wealthy. Personally I think she’d be slightly worse off in the short run and slightly better off in the long run.

  214. bald eagle says:

    is it only me or does anybody else think it’s us that controls this skirmish

    everything they throw at us we fight back with true facts and figures

    thepnr put a link up saturday and it was enough to turn my partners parents who where hard no’s so thanks thepnr

    they have even asked world leaders to have a word and did we listen did we hell things are boiling away nicely not long now for the big feast

    just stand back and watch the other side screw up

    what is it they say about not interfering when idiots are
    fӣ$%^&g up dont interfere encourage them thats what i will be doing so join in

  215. YESGUY says:

    The majority of people in Scotland are low paid working class who hardly voted because the parties were all the same.

    Not anymore. People are awake and the nearer we get to the 18th the more YESSERS will come out openly.

    Middle class folk are voting “economically” comfy job , good pay and perks, so expect resistance to change but it’s not that simple either. More than half the folk i know who could be counted in this class are strong YESSERS.

    I believe we are winning. Since May . YESSERS are everywhere , NO’ers are a small group. The polls will never show us in the lead. West minster has centuries of practice at distortion and scares. We will be told we are losing the day of the ref.

    I believe most folk have made up their minds , We’re going round in circles with the same old drivel. The D/k’s are timid but many YES leaners. It will be on the day and we will win by a huge majority.

    Wait and see.

  216. Flower of Scotland says:

    @james Caithness

    It’s Strathmiglo! Mine host has not banned me from talking politics, although he’s a strong NO, it’s mostly the English friends that I have here. I’m half English and these villages Strathmiglo, Falkland, Freuchie, Auchtermuchty are inhabited by lots of English people who come here for the beauty but want to stay British! English British!. I’m friends with them so we don’t discuss Independence. That’s why Wings has been a Godsend. I have made friends on this site and now have a good friend Carol. Hi Carol who’s a Winger and met at the Newsroom at a great Wings night!
    However it’s not looking that great here for YES, but it’s always been a hard slog. Rod Campbell ( SNP MSP ) has done well for us.

  217. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tattie-bogle says: 19 August, 2014 at 2:20 pm:

    “Dear NATO how much does a loaf and two pints of milk cost”

    It’s NATO ya numtie – no blidy TESCO.
    ;-))

  218. Haggis Hunter says:

    I don’t like queues so let’s why bother, because Scotland holds the strategically important place in the North Atlantic and NATO chiefs know it. The organisation know as Westminster /BBC / Better Together, really want the world to hate Scotland

  219. heedtracker says:

    @ fred blogger, I want a state broadcaster where the majority you see and hear are all the different peoples of Scotland, with say same number of upper middle class reactionary English people from the south of England on Scottish Broadcasting as there are Scottish people on the BBC, if that makes sense. And an SBC not dominated by Glaswegians married too, best buds and cronies with the Labour Party.

  220. Zeonglow says:

    You thought you had seen some bullshit in the MSM… now its less than a month to go and every chance of a YES win, prepare for a torrential downpour of the brown stuff. Stay strong!

  221. YESGUY says:

    Haggis totally agree

    But after a YES vote watch how quickly they come round showing the rest of the world how good they are.

    The auld toothless lion still thinks we’re all daft.

  222. CameronB Brodie says:

    CameronB told me that. 🙂

    Scurrilous, that’s what you are. 🙂

  223. bald eagle says:

    ROBERT PEFFERS

    IS NATO NOT THE NEW SHOPPING CHANNEL

    BY THE WAY HELLO GCHQ QUESTION FOR YOU

    HOW DO YOU SLICE CHEESE IN A STRAIGHT LINE RSVP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE PLEASE IM BLOODY STARVING

  224. Flower of Scotland says:

    Hi Tam Jardine! It was nice to meet you too! I feel better now! I’ve had my rant, so back to campaigning!

  225. fred blogger says:

    heedtracker
    i agree, and with internet broadcasting we’ll be spoilt for choice.
    it’ll be amazing.
    radio 6 and the likes of travelling folk for me.

  226. call me dave says:

    The boss has spoken up for the union.
    That’s my Christmas book tokens cancelled this year I think.

    Edinburgh-based John Menzies says it hopes that Scotland does not split from the United Kingdom as Scottish companies will have more opportunities if Britain is not split up.

    “We don’t actually think Scotland should be independent,” finance director Paula Bell said. “We’ll be so glad to get back to normal when it’s all over and hopefully the voters will vote for no independence.”

    Recent opinion polls have suggested independence campaigners are closing the gap on their unionist rivals ahead of the referendum, though a rejection of independence still looks more likely.

    While some Scottish firms such as Royal Bank of Scotland are mulling options if Scotland goes it alone, Ms Bell said John Menzies would wait till the results to decide whether it needed to change.

  227. bald eagle says:

    An Englishman, a Frenchman and an Irishman were in a pub talking about their children.

    ‘My son was born on St George’s Day, ‘remarked the Englishman, ‘So we obviously decided to call him George.’

    ‘That’s a real coincidence’, observed the Frenchman’, My daughter was born on Valentine’s Day, so we decided to call her Valentine.’

    ‘That’s really incredible’, drawled the Irishman, ‘Exactly the same thing happened with my son Pancake.’

    F

  228. Ken500 says:

    ‘Journalism’? A load of Crap. Just like the Times overpaid reporters.

    ‘Britain would not try to derail an attempt by an Independent Scotland to join NATO’.

    Did a ‘journalist’ write that? Scotland is part of Britain. So Scotland as part of Briain will not try to derail an attempt by it’self to join NATO?

    ‘Journalist’ talking themselves out of a job. Who would believe that nonsense?

  229. schrodinger's cat says:

    world record folks
    been banned by cif 4 times in the last 24hrs
    of course, there are advanages in being dead

  230. Ken500 says:

    John Menzies doesn’t want people in Scotland cash?

    There are plenty of other firms who do. Good riddance or haste ye back.

  231. Robert Peffers says:

    @HandandShrimp says: 19 August, 2014 at 2:51 pm

    “Is it just me or do many of our erstwhile trolls actually seem to be the same person.”

    Dunno, Handandshrimp, they all sound the same to me!

  232. Bob Sinclair says:

    @Flower of Scotland

    I’m currently encamped in Freuchie due to work commitments and have had a few strange looks due to my YES badge. That being said, there seems to be a lot of YES windaes in Falkland. If we are making inroads into these strongly middle class areas then it’s all good.

  233. Ken500 says:

    Banned Scotsman twice, banned Guardian twice. Deleted and banned Bateman. Bit BBC controllish.

    Scotsman/Guardian readership plummeting. Fabulous Bateman still going strong but inaccessible.

    C’est la vie.

  234. Ken500 says:

    Wings soaring over Scotland. Flying like Wings. Ace.

  235. David Anderson says:

    Nato’s own stated intention is for membership to be open to all European democracies that meet the membership criteria and being Nuclear ain’t one of them as is evident from the membership. I think the Government position is pretty straightforward and sensible on this and the media again use the fact negotiations can’t start until after we say YES to drum up doubt and obscurification. For fowks who wonder about this they should relate it to the EU question, in that both will be answered by the interests of all and it IS in the best interests of both the EU and NATO to have Scotland within.

    O/T my daily positive story is.. This morning a don’t know messaged me to say they had, in some small part moved to YES due to my information (most of which was gleened from wings and contributers). There has been a marked increase in YES twibbons on my facebook and indeed an increasing number of YES posters in and around the area I live in Perth. The efforts are paying off and we should all vow to do something in these last weeks.

  236. goldenayr says:

    Hmmm…HMNB Clyde no longer operates MRVs.

    There are still vast minefields in Scottish waters.

    Time to relocate them?

  237. Dan Huil says:

    @ Flower of Scotland. I feel for you, FoS. I live in a part of Moray where there are a lot of ex-RAF people – mostly English, mostly No.

  238. Alisdair says:

    Why don’t we just declare neutrality like Switzerland does, I’m sure I’ve of Switzerland before?…..oh yes, the McCrone report!

  239. Grouse Beater says:

    Edinburgh-based John Menzies says it hopes that Scotland does not split from the United Kingdom

    John Menzies has always had a neo-con attitude to business and trade, and indeed, employed people of like mind, often from ‘darn sarf’ to run it, and others to promote it. No surprise its boss has the arrogance to defy the democratic rights of a nation.

  240. Brian Ritchie says:

    The RIC canvass results are really not all that far away from the official polls. The YES vote at 43% is virtually a dead match. The main difference is the number of DKs at 31%.

  241. goldenayr says:

    Grouse Beater

    Stopped shopping there decades ago when they insisted it was pronounced “Menzeez”.

  242. Devereux says:

    Forget The Times, let’s not bother about The Sun. Can we re-visit some of the older factual stories for new readers coming to Wings via WBB. Scotland is shifting and shifting fast. I was in a queue for The Pure, The Dead and the Brilliant (which was brilliant). Standing behind were two very posh Edinburgh ladies of a certain age. They had got tickets late but were pleased because they had been ‘meaning to go to a ‘Referendum’ thing.’ Then one asked the other, who I think was perhaps English-born, what she thought. She said she was a No but the OTHER one then said she wasn’t so sure. In fact, the one thing that made her consider Yes was the Iraq war. The more her friend argued that Scotland would have not made a different decision the more she started to stick to her guns. I was gobsmacked – a decade ago, I would have been surprised if they had turned up to see a play like this. If we are reaching Morningside we are reaching everywhere. Stereotyping, perhaps, but it was tremendously uplifting to hear all the same.

  243. goldenayr says:

    Devereux

    If independence is good enough for the Duchess of Hamilton.

    I’m sure it’s good enough for the “fur coat nae knickers” brigade.

  244. big jock says:

    One thing I have learned in this campaign.There are a lot of bitter nasty unionists in my workplace.Yesterday Mrs Mcnasty spouted:”That Salmond has a face I would never tire of punching”.Today Nicola Sturgeon was compared to the bride of chuckle!Meanwhile all defending Cameron about his holidays then saying and Salmond goes to New York and stays in a decent hotel how dare he.I am at the point of formalising a complaint as its making my workplace really nasty and uncomfortable.I don’t mind coherent debate but just constant nasty stuff is not for the workplace.They already know I vote SNP so there is no respect.However I console myself in the knowledge that they are completely bigoted and ill informed.The revolution will happen despite them.

  245. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    Whilst I have little use for the House of Lords one thing they’ve said is worth repeating. It’s their use of the word “continuator” when describing the rUK. That’s either a mark of caution or even an outright admission that the rUK is not guaranteed recognition as the sole continuation of the UK in all circumstances. That’s the reasoning behind Scotland’s first approach in negotiating continued membership of both the EU and NATO.

    However assuming our strategic position isn’t taken in to account and we need to apply for admission then it’s reassuring that the ‘UK’ won’t impose conditions such as hosting Trident. For pretty much the same reason as with the EU Spain might prefer Scotland was rushed through membership rather inherit it so they can retain their threatened veto of Catalonia so they’re not really the bogeyman they made out to be.

    Any potential threat regarding a dispute over Faslane’s sovereignty would beg the question about Gibraltar.

  246. big jock says:

    That should have been bride of chuckie!

  247. HandandShrimp says:

    I see Severin over on the Groaniard has a truly lamentable scare story piece from the BBC ex (whatever he was) Birt with a virtually identical storyline to currency, EU, NATO and all the rest. “We won’t discuss anything with you and we will do our damnedest to bring you down” line.

    I don’t know about other people but that shit really makes me want to vote Yes.

  248. heedtracker says:

    People, please, just because the big nobs in these companies like Menzies are no voters doesn’t mean their employees are, quite the opposite actually.

  249. Thepnr says:

    The wash, spin, repeat of all the old scare stories is absolutely nothing new.

    It has all been plagiarised from the tactics used by the successful No campaign dring the Quebec referendum on Independence from Canada.

    Have and read of some select quotes below from the House of Commons Library research paper published in July 2013.

    It should be known as the “Project Fear Handbook”

    “Arguments over the cost of separation, the currency an independent Quebec would use and the province’s economic viability as an independent state were heated but were thought in the end not to have increased the No vote.”

    “There was also argument about where a Yes vote would leave Quebec in relation to Canada’s international commitments such as the North America Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and NATO.”

    “Trudeau and the No campaign offered constitutional reform if there was a No vote and continually questioned the economic viability of an independent Quebec. They argued that separation could cost 200,000 jobs and said that it would mean a 19% tax increase to maintain the same level of government services.”

    “The federalists cast doubt on whether Quebec would be able to pay pensions, targeting older voters whom they knew to be less likely to vote for separation.”

    “Another key argument was over the currency. The No camp argued that the remainder of Canada would not consent to a monetary union with an independent Quebec, and that Quebec would find it difficult simply to use the Canadian dollar; some very small and dependent countries have adopted the US dollar as their currency but it has not been done by anywhere as large as Quebec.”

    “There was also reported to be a gender divide, with women more likely to vote No and men tending more towards Yes. Again, financial uncertainty was thought to be behind this trend, with women said to be more worried about paying the bills.”

    “Thirdly, the No campaign stressed that separation would lead to disruption and uncertainty. Lastly, they offered constitutional flexibility, to offer Quebec some of the reforms it wanted, after a No vote.”

  250. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    O/T – Wee Blue Book windae : http://i.imgur.com/88AsIT0.jpg

  251. goldenayr says:

    big jock

    Harrassment and equality legislation covers political leanings.

  252. Ken500 says:

    Bye Bye BBC. That’s a threat?

    Bye, bye it’s been good to know ya. NO nay regrets.

  253. Flower of Scotland says:

    Hi Bob Sinclair! Yes Falkland,s doing well with YES! I was out with our local councillor who lives in Falkland and I used to live there , so it amazes me it’s YES!

    Will keep working hard in Strathmiglo for YES!

    I do think that the BBBC are a war footing against Yes now! With STV not far behind! And C4 ………….hmmmm

  254. goldenayr says:

    heedtracker

    Quite right.

    The sparsity and remoteness of these outlets should not stop you being polite to the staff.

    My nearest one is a days journey.

  255. Ken500 says:

    Quebec is nothing like Scotland. Neither is Catalonia.

    Better inform the NO better togethers plotters.

  256. Dan Huil says:

    @ Big Jock. Stay cool. Workplaces can be like school playgrounds: a few loudmouths thinking they control everyone, sidekicks who seem to agree with the loudmouths but secretly have doubts, and the good guys.

  257. Tartan Tory says:

    O/T I got side-tracked half way through this page by a post from Lesley-Anne linking to a piece about the drop in the pound. On the same page, I saw another bit about Scottish Independence, so I couldn’t help myself.

    Now, I imagine the views expressed will not be to everyone’s tastes, but I’d be interested to hear what folks here make of it all the same.

    http://www.cityam.com/1408328491/free-market-case-independence-let-s-make-scotland-hong-kong

  258. Blair paterson says:

    I want independence for Scotland but i don’t want to be in n.a.t.o. Or Europe what has n.a.t.o. Ever done to help the the people of Palestine who are being murderd day in day out and igoing on for years now a slow form of genocide and the world looks on and does nothing these great champions of freedom America and Briton supply the bombs and the bullets that allow this to happen to their everlasting shame !and the way the world leaders have lined up to to talk against Scottish independence makes me want to pull up the ladder and tell the world to f.,off vote yes

  259. Ken500 says:

    Another unlikely YES from a former non committal.

  260. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    schrodinger’s cat says:
    world record folks
    been banned by cif 4 times in the last 24hrs
    of course, there are advanages in being dead

    You could try vile Cybernat posting on CiF in a ‘dead’ language:-

    https://www.google.co.uk/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=M57zU4SoO4eDaMHSgfgB&gws_rd=ssl#q=english+to+latin+translation

    🙂

  261. Ken500 says:

    Scotland is nothing like Hong Kong. More like King Kong. Monkey’s with red rosettes.

  262. Blair paterson says:

    Sorry should have read Britain

  263. Croompenstein says:

    @Graeme – The question is simply do Scots want to share a country with the English, Welsh and Irish or do they not. If not, fair enough. Hard not to take it as a kick in the teeth but there it is

    It’s not a kick in the teeth Graeme it’s just an exercise in democracy. The best people to make the best decisions for Scotland are the people who live and work in Scotland. The UK, in my eyes, should really be called England(Inc) the inc being Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And in England(Inc) the govt make the decisions that are best for England and especially the South-East and that is what you would expect but if Scotland can remove itself from the inc then we will be better placed to make the best decisions for Scotland every time.

    We will still share our history, our culture, our families and we will be the best of friends.

  264. balgayboy says:

    As perceived in Asia: NATO = No Action Talk Only

  265. call me dave says:

    Hold on to nurse for fear of something worse.

    It’s well past that time for most of us. Even my better half’s father in Oban, has read the Sunday Post for years, says today on the phone.

    “I remember you told me about the oil last year, it was in the paper at the weekend, you were right”

    Progress…progress, he’s even got queen’s coronation coach tapestry on the wall, made by his father seemingly!

    Nice thing too but will he vote YES? 😉

  266. goldenayr says:

    From a link on a Scotsman article.Profs at Stirling are really letting their students down with this sort of halfbaked argument,for or against.

    http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/blog/would-scottish-independence-save-nhs-and-keep-education-free?fid=15991&isc=1&did=49edd83fe8032abdf63663a0011e17aa4f692838&ctp=article

  267. misteralz says:

    I have nothing to add to this thread, other than if the bloke who dropped off the 2′ x 8′ Yes signs at my house yesterday is reading this, then thanks. I’ve put them up against my fence and they’re quite visible from the B9119. 😀

  268. SquareHaggis says:

    The Times they aren’t a changin’

    Load o auld Dingbats!

  269. Grouse Beater says:

    The PNR: It has all been plagiarised from the tactics used by the successful No campaign during the Quebec referendum on Independence from Canada.

    A carbon copy, only Quebec Libre did not hold tight to their agenda. They allowed the opposition to dictate subject matter and timing of issues.

  270. packhorse pete says:

    @big jock
    “Yesterday Mrs Mcnasty spouted:”That Salmond has a face I would never tire of punching”.
    I sympathise. I get a lot of that too. Normally I ask, “who do you admire then?”. And then they mumble about politicians all being the same…like a deflated balloon. Never actually come up with a name, which then exposes them to ridicule.Or I say ironically that “democracy’s a bugger isn’t it? all these voters going for Salmond…”
    Thole it – it’s all based on fear and insecurity. It’s coming soon for all that.

  271. David Stevenson says:

    With reference to the New Cumnock story, why would anyone be shocked? A former Prime Minister set the level of No campaigning in the gutter by attempting to terrorise potential transplant patients and their families. Add to that his promotion of the scare stories on medical research in an independent Scotland and you can’t go much lower. And this is not some wee troll, keyboard hardman or rogue canvasser, but someone who has held the two greatest offices of the UK state. He is a disgusting excuse for a human being. His New Cumnock acolyte is merely following his leader. Maybe if the local press pick it up it might reach the mainstream, but I doubt it.

  272. Faltdubh says:

    Jock, I’ll be raising a toast to you on the 19th, big lad – having to deal with that at work.

    Not just for having anti-Indy views, but have worked in a poisonous environment like that and it was full of negativity, if it’s not Eck, Indy, it’ll be the buses, the computers no good, the weather’s too hot or it’s no hot enough or it’s too gray, or it’s too cold!

    Battle on. We’re winning the hearts and minds. People are becoming invovled.

    The days back at work after the referendum will be HUGELY ENJOYABLE for you in front of them

    All the best buddy,

  273. goldenayr says:

    Blair Paterson

    You were right the first time.

    “Briton”

    I mean,how many actually,down in the nitty gritty,do not think of themselves in relation to their national football team.

  274. Robert Peffers says:

    @muttley79 says: 19 August, 2014 at 4:02 pm:

    “Why do so many unionists in Scotland take great pleasure in arguing that Scotland will not be a member of the EU, Nato, and whatever else they can think of?”

    It is perfectly simple, muttley, they are brainwashed or alternatively brain dead. The first are brought up to believe that the terms United Kingdom, England and Britain are equally synonomous and the second are just too thick to know the difference.

    I had an ex-squaddie once as a skilled labourer. He had a strange, (to me), accent. I asked him were he was from as I couldn’t place his accent. He said, does it matter as we’re all English together here in Britain. I informed him I was British and Scottish but he still didn’t get it – to him Britain was England and England Britain.

  275. HeehawBaws says:

    “Against whom?” Proud Edward’s army!

  276. Robert Louis says:

    Thepnr,

    Regarding quebec, it does indeed seem they are trying to follow much of what the NO campaign did in Canada (eventually ‘winning’ by a bottom tightening 0.7% margin).

    There is however, a major problem with such a plan. The Quebec referendum was in 1986, prior to the internet, social networking and web based news sources. All people had to go on, was the official media. Now, here in 2014, the same plan will not work, due to the many excellent independent sources of information, immediately disproving the scare story lies as soon as they are released by the ever obliging (and blatantly biased) main stream media.

    Sites such as WoS, Bella Caledonia, Newsnet Scotland, and many others together with twitter, E-mail and social networking, mean that for the anti independence campaign to try to follow the ‘Quebec’ strategy in Scotland in 2014, is foolhardy in the extreme.

  277. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry BE I got all my A’s and E’s in a wee twist in my last post. 😛

    Sorry I din’t make my last post clearer BNE. I realised that you were talking about NVC I was just rambling aimlessly about the useless British news media 😀

    Robert Peffers says:

    @Tattie-bogle says:

    “Dear NATO how much does a loaf and two pints of milk cost”

    It’s NATO ya numtie – no blidy TESCO.

    The way that our *ahem* friends from the other side keep talking it might just as well be TESCO’s we’re talking about Robert I think. 😛

    Apologies for the distraction TT. 😉

  278. Flower of Scotland says:

    Hey Jock, keep smiling???? it’s rotten being surrounded by BT negativity! I sympathise. Me too! You’ll get lots of encouragement on wings! Just vote YES!

  279. Flower of Scotland says:

    That was supposed to be a smiley face Jock!!

  280. Bob Sinclair says:

    Thepnr

    cracking post, copied / posted on Facebook.

    Thanks

  281. Alan McHarg says:

    Possibly another reason for sucking up to N. Ireland…

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6037469.stm

  282. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dick Gaughan says: 19 August, 2014 at 4:15 pm:

    “Almost new, never used, one previous owner”

    Aye! Dick but being HM Submarine it’ll be one careful old lady owner.
    ;-))

  283. JWil says:

    A pleasant surprise today as I negotiated the roundabout outside Hairmyres Hospital. A little white van with a YES flag up front and some explanatory text on its side about East Kilbride’s campaign.

    It was going quite slow. I assumed it wanted to be noticed.

  284. Grouse Beater says:

    Robert Lous: Sites such as WoS, Bella Caledonia, Newsnet Scotland, Grouse Beater on WordPress, plus many others together with twitter, E-mail and social networking, mean we are far better informed and able to pass information to each other with ease.

  285. mboyd says:

    Is this the same Rasmussen who is stirring it up in Ukraine and was censured by the aDanish parliament for presenting misleading intelligence to it re Iraq.s WMDs?

  286. call me dave says:

    Anyone having the same problem as me.
    Can’t watch this evening’s live event.

    Blocked by ‘SCHOOL NETWORK’ ?

    https://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive

  287. bald eagle says:

    call me dave

    yup same with me

  288. TJenny says:

    call ne dave – Yep, I’m getting the same message.

  289. Thepnr says:

    @Robert Louis

    The most recent referendum in Quebec was 1995. That aside I agree that we are far better informed and can debunk the scares.

    The point I was making is that the “scares” are exactly the same. As Grouse Beater said “a carbon copy”. Maybe thought we wouldn’t notice?

    One final quote from the paper that interested me.

    In May 2013, Jean Chrétien visited London to speak to British MPs and business people about the Quebec and Scotland campaigns. Chrétien said that No campaigners should not take any lead for granted after the opinion poll shock the No campaign had as the 1995 vote approached.

    He said that No is at an emotional disadvantage because it involves breaking
    people’s dreams. He praised the clarity of the question to be asked of the Scottish public but questioned whether the threshold of 50% plus one was right.

    Now I think I know why they truly are shitting themselves now that the polls are closing!

  290. Ken500 says:

    One English Times reader has decided on YES because there are 10 articles in the Times against Scotland every publication. Now a committed YESSER. YES poster, car sticker, donation the works.

  291. call me dave says:

    Thanks for confirmation on live streaming.. I can watch all the past debates, wonder what SCHOOL NETWORK is?

    was ok yesterday.

  292. Muscleguy says:

    Ah I wondered why I have never been tempted to pay to breach The Times paywall since it went up. To be honest I haven’t missed it. Sorry Rupert.

    If I want right wingery I go straight to the horse’s mouth and drop in at the Torygraph. Though more for the sport than much else. Too much swivel-eyed loonery is not good for the blood pressure. Mind you mine was dizzily low over the weekend* (I ate lots of salt) I probably should have gone over and didn’t.

    *I haven’t been that aggressively dizzy on standing for ages. It wasn’t even that warm.

  293. Lesley-Anne says:

    Maybe we are all going about this independence referendum thingy the wrong way Ken. Maybe what we SHOULD be doing is making sure that EVERY newspaper ever read in Scotland has a MINIMUM of 10 articles every day AGAINST independence so that MORE people like your *ahem* friend will get so sick fed up with it all that they too will see the light and vote YES! 😛

  294. bald eagle says:

    call me dave

    it’s a network for pupils doing homework so they can be on line
    with online teachers incase they run into problems

    its a pain where i live interferes with radio+ mobile

  295. Robert Peffers says:

    @Hewitt83 says: 19 August, 2014 at 4:24 pm:

    “I always thought Fife would’ve been one of the big No areas.”

    Have you the slightest idea of what Fife is like? Do you imagine that, for example the folks of St Andrews, Crail, Rosyth, Kelty, Culross or Glenrithes have in common? Other than the fact they are all in the same county?

    Just take the first four, St Andrews is a university town, Crail a fishing village, Rosyth a Dockyard town and Kelty once a mining village but now a dormatory for towns and cities from such as Edinburgh, Stirling, Dunfermline, Perth and Kirkaldy. A more diverse county would be very hard to find.

  296. Douglas Macdonald says:

    With regard to the story of the disgusting tactics employed by NO canvassers in Cumnock, surely a member of the YES Campaign in that area should either contact the local newspaper editor or, at the very least, write him a letter for inclusion in its next edition. This sort of nonsense must be stopped in its tracks, while at the same time provide some reassurance to its victims, the vulnerable pensioners in the district.

  297. Robert Peffers says:

    @bald eagle says: 19 August, 2014 at 4:33 pm:

    “Does a chocolate font count”

    Yes but not so much as a baptismal font does.

  298. Muscleguy says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Not to mention those in Tayport and Newport who commute over the bridge into Dundee, the Yes City and get ‘infected’.

    Was out canvassing with RIC and even people doing neighbouring areas had different experiences. We had lots of people out, quite a few instinctive No elderly people and lots of undecideds with a sprinkling of Yes while those two streets over found a pile of Yes voters.

    We passed over a registration form to one guy not on the register who is going to vote Yes though. There is still time, up until Sept 2. I just need one more person to vote Yes who wasn’t going to and I will have cancelled my No voting family.

  299. Lesley-Anne says:

    I agree with everything you have said there Douglas. The one aspect that does concern me though is what sort of reception a) any letter sent to the local paper receives from the editorial staff and b) what the reaction from the locals might be to the letter.

    In both cases I’d hope that the reactions were positive and a message could, through the local paper, be sent to Better Together that frightening elderly people is NOT how we do ANY form of electioneering in Scotland!

  300. CameronB Brodie says:

    A more diverse county would be very hard to find.

    Isn’t Fife actually a Kingdom? 🙂

    A surprisingly compact region of remarkable variety, the Kingdom of Fife will greet you with colourful fishing villages that are framed by glorious beaches which sweep the coastline, and miles of peaceful countryside nestled inland. A region perfect for families, Fife fuses a maze of history with a thrill-seekers playground and a treasure trail of hidden delights.

    http://www.visitscotland.com/destinations-maps/kingdom-fife/

    I have heard from the Fife secessionist movement, but will Fife be before Scotland in the NATO queue? 🙂

  301. CameronB Brodie says:

    Oops. I haven’t heard…..

  302. I am hoping that there will be some You Tube footage of two meetings taking place tonight so we can compare. The meetings are Nicola Sturgeon in Lochgelly and George Galloway in Kirkcaldy.

  303. TJenny says:

    Jame Caithness – There’s a picture of the Lochgelly meeting posted on twitter by Nicola Sturgeon (and rt’d on WOS Twitter). It looks jam packed. 🙂

  304. TJenny says:

    Sorry that should read James’.

  305. john king says:

    Standing room only at the Lochgelly event James and a standing ovation for Ms Sturgeon.

  306. Grouse Beater says:

    Cameron asks: Isn’t Fife a Kingdom?

    It is, and everybody driving through it must pay a hefty charge – for speeding!

  307. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    @Lesley-Anne says:
    frightening elderly people is NOT how we do ANY form of electioneering in Scotland!

    Has anyone told Gordon Brown?

    It’s his speciality.

  308. Paula Rose says:

    In passing – TJenny, did those shoes fit?

  309. Lesley-Anne says:

    DAMN!

    I knew we forgot to add someone Calcagus to the e-mail list of things NOT to do when talking to the elderly electorate. 😛

  310. To TJenny

    Thanks for info, but I.m not on twitter. I’ll wait for You Tube.

  311. TJenny says:

    James – I’m not on Twitter either but you can still read Twitter feeds – just click on the Wings Twitter logo above the Facebook logo on r/h side of the page.

  312. Lesley-Anne says:

    Will this do for you James until any video emerges? 😛

    http://tinyurl.com/puvfnex

  313. TJenny says:

    Paula Rose – sorry PR, but that’s gone wooshing right over my head. 🙁

  314. Thanks for that TJenny.

  315. Thank you Lesley-Anne.

  316. tried to put a you tube clip on this wesite but can’t do it.

  317. TJenny says:

    James C – just copy and paste the address from Youtube and paste into your comment BUT you have to take out everything before the www.

  318. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD4w_LaUQBs

    Thanks again. As I haven’t been on here long sorry if you have seen this you tube vid before.

  319. TJenny says:

    James – thanks for the vid, don’t think I’ve seen you posting before, but welcome onboard the WOS Indy Express. 🙂 Not long to go now. Yippee.

  320. Betty Boop says:

    I couldn’t care less whether we are in or out of NATO.
    Next.

  321. Lesley-Anne says:

    Just trhink of all the fun we’d be having though BB if we were outside NATO. Can you imagine all the back breaking somersaults and goodness knows what else NATO and everyone else would be doing to get us to join? 😛

  322. Morag says:

    The question is simply do Scots want to share a country with the English, Welsh and Irish or do they not. If not, fair enough. Hard not to take it as a kick in the teeth but there it is.

    Graeme, not. The reason is simple and it’s contained in your post.

    Scotland is a wealthy country. In most other situations, a wealthy state within a federation sees some benefit of its own wealth, and indeed is regarded with some favour in respect of the contributions it makes to the federal budget.

    We are in the position of having been robbed blind for decades, being told we’re paupers, and should be abjectly grateful for the pocket-money we’re given back.

    Scrounging Jocks. Subsidy junkies. Sucking at the teat. All these and worse have been aimed at us. Why would we want to go on “sharing a country” under those conditions?

  323. Thepnr says:

    @Betty Boop

    Me neither, another non-issue that the blowhards love to highlight. In fact ALL the supposed scare stories are also non-issues for me.

    In the grand scheme of things they when you measure them really don’t amount to much.

  324. Douglas Macdonald says:

    Lesley-Anne
    If the editor of the local paper does not wish to write an article on this abuse in Cumnock, then he is duty-bound to accept a letter for publication, provided, of course, the letter writer follows the rules of acceptance set out by the newspaper. If he refuses to publish without any explanation, then, the writer can complain of censorship, publicising it widely amongst the various social media outlets.

  325. cearc says:

    TT,

    I saw that too.

    I don’t think that he understands the concept of the Common Weal.

  326. Democracy Reborn says:

    @Tartan Tory

    Interesting link to the City AM article.

    I suspect you & I are on different sides policy-wise (I’m centre-left), but we’re united on the goal of independence in the first instance. Once that is achieved, & Scotland has a government which is truly representative of the people, we can have all the policy arguments we want.

    I certainly wouldn’t be in favour of some laissez faire Indy Scotland but I’d at least respect those who might argue for it. I can certainly envisage a future Indy govt being business friendly, utilising our oil wealth &, who knows, if England is determined to leave the EU, business from south of the border might be inclined to re-locate north of the border. I also think that there is section of the Scottish public who are small ‘c’ conservatives, but have not voted Tory for a long time. And I’m not talking about the neoliberal types we currently have at WM. Although I may disagree with them politically, they should realise that the best chance of any revival of their fortunes lies in a fully autonomous party within an Indy Scotland. It may take a generation, but it will likely happen. As long as they are tied to WM & London calling the shots, the Tories will remain toxic.

  327. Lesley-Anne says:

    I would hope that the editor would actually do both Douglas, print a letter about this disgraceful behaviour AND investigate. At the end of the day though either one would probably be enough to initiate an outrage AGAINST the BT crowd.

  328. Thepnr says:

    I would’ve called myself centre-left for probably my entire life. The political compass has moved though during that time and it would seem I’d be classed as far left.

    Truth is MY views haven’t changed a jot, just that everything else has moved right in terms of the poloticians we have elected in the last 30 years.

  329. Tartan Tory says:

    @ Democracy Reborn

    In truth, I don’t have a ‘side’ and I’m not a card carrying member of anything more exciting than the Automobile Association! I’ve certainly been described as a small ‘c’ before now. 😉

  330. Lesley-Anne says:

    For James, and anyone else wondering about how Nicola Sturgeon’s event in Lochgelly went tonight then here’s some insight.

    http://tinyurl.com/km2ob6l

  331. TJenny says:

    L-A – that was superb, esp the polling results at the end. Oor Nicola is some woman, and thankfully she’s on our side. In fact I think all the best politicians/orators are on the indy side.

    Wonder if the 2 remaining Nos will be converted.

  332. Thepnr says:

    @Lesley-Anne

    Yes, conversations do the trick at sWinging the vote from No to Yes. 🙂

  333. Marco McGinty says:

    @Thepnr
    I would’ve called myself centre-left for probably my entire life. The political compass has moved though during that time and it would seem I’d be classed as far left.

    Aye, but considering you’ve been a regular contributor to this site, GCHQ will have you down as a radical extremist.

  334. Lesley-Anne says:

    TJ I have every expectation that even though they ended up with two NOes I have a strong suspicion that no matter how strong a NO they were before Nicola spoke they will be a heck of a lot softer NO now! 😉

    Absolutely Thepnr. Talk to people and they listen, most of the time, and then they can make up their own minds and in the vast majority of cases they become YESSER’s. 😛

  335. Thepnr says:

    Marco McGinty

    So what to do? Fret about it all day, I don’t think so.

    What GCHQ choose to call me or any others on this site for expressing their views is their business and not mine.

    My aim is to make them history in this country, the big brother surveillance has got well out of hand when you consider that they are most likely reading the posts of Wingers who are ordinary people supporting change.

    Fuck them, they mean nothing to me.

  336. Marco McGinty says:

    On the NATO issue, I would imagine that Scotland would be fast-tracked through the joining process, given the geographical location (as many have already pointed out), and especially when you consider the non-member status of the Republic of Ireland. If Scotland’s application was blocked or delayed, that would leave a large area of the North Atlantic out of NATO control, and virtually unprotected.

    Or we could become allies with Russia, have a U-turn on the nuclear weapons issue, and allow Vlad to store a few here (that is a joke, just in case the media get hold of this revelation and bombard us with headlines such as Nasty NAZI Nats in New Nukes Negotiations!)

  337. Thepnr says:

    @Marco McGinty

    Just in case GCHQ get hold of your comment! Too late now mate your marked as a radical extremist and are on “the list”. 🙂

  338. Marco McGinty says:

    @Thepnr
    So what to do? Fret about it all day, I don’t think so.

    Another blog site that I contribute to, which happens to be against a popular establishment pastime involving wealthy types and landowners, recently posted about the excessive hits from Westminster (just under 50,000 out of a total of c150,000).

    I am of the same opinion, and would love to be rid of such a system. I was just pointing out the way in which the wonderful UK government treats its law-abiding citizens.

  339. Marco McGinty says:

    @Thepnr
    Just in case GCHQ get hold of your comment! Too late now mate your marked as a radical extremist and are on “the list”. 🙂

    That probably happened a long time ago!

  340. donald anderson says:

    Have recently heard someone say Britain did a deal with the oil companies and that they own the fields till 2050. Find that hard for any independent nation to accept that in their territorial waters?

  341. donald anderson says:

    The Pictish Kingdom of Fife was united with the Dalriadic and Strathclyde Kingdoms to form the Scottish Nation and Kingdom as Orkney, Western Isles, Shetland, Argyll, Borders, etc. After expelling the Angles, which formed only a small part of the Lothians became arguably the oldest nation in Europe. England was still Seven Kingdoms long after Scotland became united.

  342. steven Seagull says:

    Everyday, I talk to local Spanish people. Spanish speakers from sud america etc..

    Portugese speakers. Chinese.Dutch,German, Italian. Arabe.

    Fine decent people.

    Intelligent, educated and very beautiful.

    A good happy life.

    The only turds floatin in the swimming pool are the thick racist ingerlish.

    And the daftie ugly hunz naw, cannon fodder. The “fuglies”

    Float, float on…..Floater jobbies.

    VOTA SI!

  343. Auld yin says:

    Why on earth would we want to join NATO anyway? It’s an organization well past it’s sell-by date and serves no useful purpose since the end of the Warsaw Pact. An independent Scotland should declare itself non-aligned and possess a purely self-defence force, with no remit to operate outwith Scottish territory. Such a force would of course co-operate fully with the other states comprising the British Isles in the spheres of disaster relief, maritime rescue, etc.

  344. Mike says:

    Sorry Stu but you’ve got this one wrong. You’ve fallen for the No campaign concept that the UK is England and England is the UK. When you say Scotland is not part of NATO it is!
    It is so by virtue of the fact that the UK is only a Parliamentary representation of the Nation States which are the actual members within NATO. The UK is not a Nation state. The UK is the Union of Parliaments between the Nation States which provides the single Parliamentary representation of each of the Nation States. So like the EU Scotland is a Nation State member of NATO and does not require to rejoin because of the break up of the Parliamentary Union which is the UK.
    As is the case with the EU the only necessary negotiations are for the official transfer of responsibilities for the treaties from the joint UK Parliament to the constituent separate Parliaments of Scotland and England Wales.

  345. donald anderson says:

    NATO needs us more than we need them. It is the Anglo American imperialist virtues that have made them such security targets.

  346. Andy says:

    Actually I can quite believe the MoD have made no plans for it. Much in the same way that Scot Gov haven’t made any.

    That is, after all, why Scot Gov won’t supply any projections for start up costs of independence – their line is that these are an unknown until all the negotiations / splitting of assets and liabilities have been worked out.

  347. Andy says:

    @Donald Anderson – Orkney and Shetland weren’t part of Scotland until the C15th. The Western Isles not until the C13th. These events are several hundred years after the formation of England.

    The Kingdom of Strathclyde was Brythonic – its countrymen were Welsh, Cornish, Cumbrians etc – Cumbric peoples.

    Other than that, you are bang on.

  348. Gary says:

    I doubt their stupidity but laziness an willingness to lie to make sure they win? That’ll be a big YES! The campaign’s been an eye opener for me personally. I will never buy a national daily again or believe anything on the BBC. I will never forgive the Labour Party for betraying us either. I always knew the truth was bent a little but when they themselves don’t believe in what they’re doing! Scum..

  349. donald anderson says:

    Andy, I know. That is why I left the dates out. I only wanted to explain why the “Kingdom” of Fife.
    The Picts were in the Orkneys and Shetland before the Viking takeover, as excavations show. DNA tests show about 25% Scandinavian. Donegal, Man, Dublin and York, were also Viking strongholds before reverting back. The Romans called the Cruithne “Picti” because of their painted tattooed bodies. Thay also claim to have defeated a Pictish Navy around Orkney and Shetland. Other sources say it was a storm that wrecked the fleet.

    Historians scorned the Declaration of Arbroath claim of Picts moving through the Pillars of Hercules, etc. Archaeologists have since proven that the Celts migrated here from Northern Europe and through Turkey to Egypt and across to the Iberian Straits. Hence the Douglas, dark Gaels and the Fingals, fair Gaels. Neil Oliver seemed surprised to his DNA showed ancestors from the Southern Mediterranean.

    A combined force of Scots, Picts and Norse Gaels from Shetland and Ireland finally too Dumbarton Rock from the Strathclyde Bretts.



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