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Wings Over Scotland

The Scottish Brexit FAQ

Posted on December 20, 2016 by

We’ll be honest with you, readers, we’re not looking forward to 2017 one little bit. It’s going to be the most tedious year in Scottish politics since we started this website, and perhaps since the advent of devolution.

Other than the mild distraction of the council elections in May – which are likely to be a bit of a damp squib due to the deadening effect of STV and the propensity of Labour and the Tories to do deals to keep the SNP out of power – pretty much nothing even a little bit interesting is going to happen.


All we ARE going to hear about is Brexit and the EU, over and over and over and over again, and everything we’re going to hear is the same empty, pointless, space-filling speculation we’ve already been hearing since June. So let’s just get it down, and then we can link to it every week and go and do something useful with our time instead.


You know there won’t, we know there won’t, everyone and their dog knows there won’t. The Scottish Government is obliged to put forward proposals for solutions that respect Scotland’s almost-2-to-1 vote to stay in, but however sincerely it does so they’ll be ignored. The UK government has made that abundantly and repeatedly clear:





The practicalities for such an arrangement would be extremely challenging even if there was political will for it outside Scotland, and there isn’t.


The EU is extremely sympathetic to Scotland’s desire to stay in, and would welcome an independent Scotland with open arms.


But it can’t do it from inside the UK. Which means…


Because there can’t NOT be. In 2014 and 2016 Scots voted for two things that they can’t have both of, so sooner or later they’re going to have to choose one or the other. Nicola Sturgeon couldn’t hope to survive failing to bring forward another indyref after the inevitable failure of “special deal” proposals, and the UK government refusing one would be political suicide.

It’s no use Unionists whining that Scotland voted to stay in the UK so it has to accept UK decisions. Scotland voted to stay in a UK that was a member of the EU, and that UK no longer exists. The 2014 decision was made on a blatantly and unarguably false premise and has been overtaken by events.








If Scotland wishes to stay in a Brexit UK – and it may well do so – its people must be given the opportunity to make that decision based on the truth about what they’re choosing. And they will, most likely in spring 2019. But that’s a while yet.


In the second independence referendum, a Yes vote will beyond any shred of rational or credible doubt be the stability vote, the internationalist vote, and the economically sensible vote. (Many of us will of course feel that it was those things in 2014 too, but now the counter-argument will simply look farcical.)

Bizarrely, the main Unionist position against this is to endlessly repeat the mantra “but Scotland trades far more with the rest of the UK than it does with Europe”. and insist that there would be a damaging “hard border” between Scotland and England hurting that trade, even as they insist that there WOULDN’T be one between a post-Brexit UK and EU-member Ireland.




But even if it were true that Scotland trades more with the rUK than the EU (and it’s far from clear that it is, because nobody’s sure how much of Scotland’s “UK” trade is actually goods simply stopping off in England on the way to Europe), so what? Why would Scotland and the rUK stop trading with each other – or impose punitive tariffs – if Scotland either had a separate EU status or was an independent country? In whose interests would that be? Certainly not the rUK’s.

(It’s sometimes been suggested that there would have to be border posts because of immigration, but the same Ireland point still applies, as does the fact that immigration policing doesn’t start and end at border crossings. And how many immigrants would in any event want to leave Scotland, where they were wanted by the government and welcome to stay and work legally, in order to get to an England where they’d be hated, hunted, vilified, attacked and even murdered?)



Amid the thousands of acres of newsprint and uncountable hours of airtime that will be devoted next year to Brexit and its implications for Scotland, nothing will change any of these three fundamental facts.

Everyone knows them already, but pages and schedules will have to be filled so we’ll have to endure the same old faces honking the same old lines on all sides for month after month until we’re ready to hurl ourselves off tall buildings at the first mention of the words “EU” or “Brexit”, if we’re not already.

2017 will be a year of going through the motions, an elaborate and hollow charade in which pretty much every participant knows they’re wasting their time for the sake of appearances before knuckling down to the reality in 2018 and 2019. Get yourselves a few good books, folks.

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  1. 20 12 16 11:57

    The Scottish Brexit FAQ | speymouth

  2. 20 12 16 12:57

    Our own worst enemy? – Towards Indyref2…

885 to “The Scottish Brexit FAQ”

  1. Like an excruciating game of charades, waiting on the next Westminster Brexit clue…

    So far we’ve been give these to go on…

    May – It’s red, white and blue
    Fox – It’s not a boiled egg

    Next clue please…

  2. valkyrie says:

    Gary Robertson was trying to push the trade with rUK v trade with EU argument with Stephen Gethins this morning on GMS. Also, the news item on the SG’s Brexit plans was inexplicably followed by an uncredited soundbite saying “the best deal for the UK is the best deal for Scotland” (or words to that effect). Propaganda at its worst.

  3. defo says:

    As per your track record,I can’t find fault with your analysis.

    What’s not there, and by definition can’t be, are Rumsfelds unknown unknowns. Events dear boy.
    We are living in ‘interesting times’ worldwide. Elections in Europe ahead for example, could throw the dice back up in the air.
    Trump ?

    What you highlight is true, but I have the feeling that next year is going to be anything but boring. And not in a good way.

  4. ClanDonald says:

    Are Tesco, Morrisons, M&S, B&Q, Next, Debenhams, Halfords, John Lewis, Sainsbury, Homebase, Halifax, 02, Nandos, Costa, Waterstones, HMV, Argos, Topshop and all the other English based companies going to want to stop trading in an independent Scotland? No, of course not. Will they object to the UK govt placing tariffs on Scotland. Of course they will.

    It would be a disaster for English retail companies if a free trade deal with Scotland wasn’t agreed and they know it.

  5. Doug Daniel says:

    It may seem tedious, but it’s completely necessary to demonstrate to soft Nos that independence is the only way forward for Scotland. What the Scottish Government is proposing today is in fact the only viable solution for keeping Scotland within the UK, and unionist parties will dutifully do their utmost to rubbish it in its entirety, which might make them feel smug, but will ultimately show soft Nos exactly why independence is our only option. As ever, unionist hatred of the SNP will do more to push independence forward than we ever can.

    (Folk could of course fill in their spare time volunteering for their local SNP council campaign, as the Tories are going to be chucking a lot of money and resources at it, and we will almost certainly see some surprises being thrown up, like Aberdeenshire West, Edinburgh Central and North-East Fife this year… I would say to everyone reading this blog who lives in Scotland: if you woke up on the 6th May this year feeling disappointed that the SNP didn’t get a majority, then next year, make sure you volunteer to deliver leaflets and chap doors, so we can get as many councils as possible taken out of unionist control.)

  6. Dada Kitchen says:

    It would be a help if during 2017 we could find out just how much trade Scotland does do via England with the EU. That would be a useful bit of news.

  7. Sandy says:

    Thank you for your public service in putting this together, Stuart. I think we will indeed have many occasions to simply link to it and go and do something more productive.

    However, as defo says, events may well surprise us, though often not in a good way.

  8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It may seem tedious, but it’s completely necessary to demonstrate to soft Nos that independence is the only way forward for Scotland.”

    Absolutely. But we already know that, which is why it’s going to be so agonisingly dull.

  9. Pete says:

    I think a lot of this is irrelevant as, after the latest German attack, and no doubt more to come, the likelihood of the EU surviving is fairly low.
    Much prefer the policy of The SNP outers of going for an independent nation state and bin Juncker, Verhofstadt and all the other inward looking protectionist Eurocrats.

  10. Sharny Dubs says:

    They play the waiting game, every day delayed is another day there may be some development that put’s things in their favor. Meanwhile keep up the barrage of lies with that hope in mind. Remember, it’s never what you don’t know that will hurt you, it’s what you know that just ain’t so, to paraphrase Tom Clements (AKA Mark Twain)

  11. PH says:

    What I don’t understand is, if an independent Scotland is in the EU and rUK is out of the EU, doesn’t that mean we can’t do a free trade deal with rUK, it has to be the EU who does the deal for us.

    And if rUK want to stop free movement then their will be tarrifs between them and EU which will include iScotland.

  12. Doug Daniel says:

    The “rUK won’t trade with Scotland” thing needs to be completely and utterly nailed, incidentally. It’s very simple: if Scotland is in the single market, then the only way we’d be prevented from trading with rUK is if the rest of the single market couldn’t trade with rUK either. The hardest of hard Brexits. Total isolation. The North Korea option.

    That means no trading British jam in exchange for Italian Prosecco.

  13. Ken h says:

    Pete, really, thanks for your deep analysis……

  14. Bugger (le Panda) says:

    I just wish May and her rag, tag and bobtail outriders would hurry up and push the bloody Brexit button.

    This charade of dancing around without a clue, always hoping on finding an answer to how they are going forward is just getting frustratingly boring.

    We need some raw meat.

  15. Brian Powell says:

    They, UKippers, just need to persuade enough people, and those who want an easy excuse, to vote No again and they’ve done the work that takes all of Scotland on a downward spiral, and from a comment above the State Broadcasting Corporation is already doing its part in the propaganda stakes.

    They think if that works it will be an end of it, again. It won’t, as it wasn’t before.

  16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think a lot of this is irrelevant as, after the latest German attack, and no doubt more to come, the likelihood of the EU surviving is fairly low.”

    Absolute rubbish.

  17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The “rUK won’t trade with Scotland” thing needs to be completely and utterly nailed, incidentally. It’s very simple: if Scotland is in the single market, then the only way we’d be prevented from trading with rUK is if the rest of the single market couldn’t trade with rUK either. The hardest of hard Brexits. Total isolation. The North Korea option.”

    Yup, as I pointed out at the start of October.

    The SNP really need to get on top of that line.

  18. dakk says:

    Enjoy your sabbatical while you can Stuart 🙂

  19. heedtracker says:

    Pete says:
    20 December, 2016 at 11:53 am
    I think a lot of this is irrelevant as, after the latest German attack, and no doubt more to come, the likelihood of the EU surviving is fairly low.

    So UK, second biggest EU member, waltzes off into a planet toryboy never never land of teamGB greatness and Leaves them all to it.

    That’s bad enough but the mass refugee exodus, from the middle east into Europe, all are fleeing endless wars started, caused, fuelled by US/UK warmongering. Its like the devil runs the UK.

  20. tartanfever says:

    Question for you Stu, or possibly even a request.

    If the political goings on over the next year are mapped out as you suggest, what do you think the SNP/Yes movement should be doing to promote independence ?

    It seems clear to me that there is no limit to the falsehoods the media will put out, so expect greater lies and threats from the MSM and I don’t think we can count to have the same domination with a grassroots movement that we enjoyed in the run up to 2014.

    I’m still of the opinion that leaflets through doors will not trump the entire UK media and if we just continue the same campaign from 2014, Yes will lose unfortunately.

  21. doug says:

    I think this point is arguable:

    “Why would Scotland and the rUK stop trading with each other – or impose punitive tariffs – if Scotland either had a separate EU status or was an independent country?”

    in that an EU-Scotland wouldn’t be able to set its own trading rules with the rUK, it would be stuck with whatever agreements are established between rUK and the whole of the EU (as I somewhat naively understand it – feel free to tell me I’m wrong).

    I guess the easy out from a pro-indy point of view is this: the same people who would like to argue that Scottish trade with rUK will suffer are going to be very busy insisting on how great the new rUK-to-EU trade deals are, thus squashing their own argument before they even start.

    But that cuts both ways: if Scotland-to-rUK trade won’t suffer much because EU-to-rUK trade is going to be OK, then unfortunately that has to imply that Scotland-to-EU trade wouldn’t suffer much if Scotland stayed part of the UK, really weakening a plank of the argument for leaving.

    The more I think about it, this point seems really central to the whole indyref2: either EU-UK trade barriers won’t be a problem, in which case Brexit really doesn’t have much impact on indyref2 (economic arguments at least, but we’re consistently told that that’s what matters most to most people); or else EU-UK trade barriers will be a problem, in which case Scotland loses out whether it stays or goes, and then the relative figures for trade to the EU vs trade to rUK become crucial – “how much “UK” trade is actually goods simply stopping off in England on the way to Europe” will likely turn out to be a very important detail indeed.

    P.S. Apologies for the essay, just trying to be clear.

  22. heedtracker says:

    It would be interesting to hear what Shonagh Munro thinks, now that she may have voted NO to keep her right to “move freely” round the UK and the EU.

    What’s the cheeseball that probably penned that slice of BetterTogether Project Fearing, saying right now?


  23. call me dave says:

    @Doug Daniel says:
    20 December, 2016 at 11:48 am

    It may seem tedious, but it’s completely necessary to demonstrate to soft Nos that independence is the only way forward for Scotland.
    Yeah! Almost word for word as I said and believe this morning.

    Nicola Sturgeon and all the SG ministers have spent 6 months going round the doors exploring all the options. The UK WM lot have been slamming them all shut and throwing away the key and meanwhile they savage all things in Scotland to hamstring our economy.

    There will eventually be two options left, one of which is independence.

  24. Grouse Beater says:

    I’m fed up arguing with unionists over which powers we don’t have and why we lose out – so in future will refer them to this:

  25. stewartb says:

    On 2 December, 2016 Boris Johnson delivered what was termed his first major policy speech, at Chatham House – entitled “Beyond Brexit: a Global Britain” (source: )

    It set out the Westminster government’s view of the UK’s future place in the world after leaving the EU. It includes some interesting references to the government’s principles and aspirations regarding international trade relationships. Johnson states:

    “.. it is our historic post-Brexit function, as the PM has said, to be the leading agitators for free trade. Again confounding those who are willing to misread Brexit by seizing the moment to campaign for openness and open markets across the globe beginning with some of those dynamic commonwealth economies that are already queuing up to do free trade deals.”

    “Now is the time to build a new and productive relationship, based on friendship and free trade, and a new European partnership where we continue to develop our work on things that matter to all of us in Europe.”

    So to recap: ‘leading agitators for free trade’; “campaign for openness and open markets across the globe”; free trade deals with Commonwealth countries; “friendship and free trade and a new European partnership”.

    That all seems pretty clear. But of course there would be one notable exception to the principle of friendship and free trade according to unionists: the exception will be the one that applies uniquely to a small Commonwealth country in Europe called Scotland, should its people dare to vote for independence!

    Elsewhere in his speech, Johnson also offers up some key advice that will come in useful in the forthcoming Indyref2 campaign – with a few appropriate word substitutions, I could express many of these sentiments on behalf of a Scotland leaving the Union with England.

    “There were plenty of people who voted to leave the EU, and I count myself ….., not because they disliked or feared foreigners, but because they believed in democracy.”

    “… it is my passionate belief that there is no contradiction whatever between a trust in the nation-state as the key building block of the global order and a generous and open mindset towards the rest of the world, ..”

    “Yes – a country taking back control of its democratic institutions. But not a nation hauling up the drawbridge or slamming the door. A nation that is now on its mettle. …. A country galvanised by new possibilities and a country that is politically and economically and morally fated to be more outward-looking and more engaged with the world than ever before.”

  26. GrahamB says:

    Another thing which needs to be nailed is this ‘statistic’ that we export four times, or whatever this week’s figure is, as much to the rUK compared to the EU. Is there any factual basis for that claim? Is it one of the 87.3% of statistics made up on the spot.
    Is there any agency/office/department which actually monitors cross-border trade?
    It’s not just trade through rUK to EU which is suspect but ‘exports’ within Scotland to retailers whose head offices are in rUK.
    I’ve never yet seen any factual source for that claim, only a throwaway line in a ‘newspaper’ about two years ago.

    Oh and Rev., Pete is a troll.

  27. Les Wilson says:

    Stu, as usual a good article, but tell me, why when talking about trade with England only bad news for Scotland comes through.

    England sells MORE to Scotland, than Scotland sells to them.
    In my weird way of thinking this means a hard border will effect their trade even more than it effects Scotland.

    Stephen Gethins did not counter with that with Gary Robertson this morning, you did not counter with that point today either.

    The Unionist side never mention this fact as it does not fit with their threats, but I am dumbfounded why our side to not point it out at every time we hear a threat ( daily) about our trade with England.
    Why does that happen? people will naturally think we have most to lose, the reverse is true.

    For English companies who sell to us 24/7 with everything, to damage trade with Scotland would lead to many redundancies in England.
    Yes we are smaller and of course it would hurt, but bear in mind the economy and debt of England, it would hurt it’s GDP,exactly when they could ill afford it.
    So a hard border would not happen,neither side could afford it to.

  28. dylanfan says:

    heedtracker – Being a student at the University of Edinburgh myself, the last time I heard from Shonagh Munro was when she took part in a public debate about the 2015 election, introducing her favoured candidate in the Edinburgh South constituency – one Ian Murray.

    A quick glance at her public social media profile would indicate she does still work for Scottish Labour, which must make it pretty hard for her to square the circle of ‘[T]he SNP’s Brexit paper should accept that remaining in the UK is even more important to Scotland than being part of the European Union’ (Scottish Labour’s Europe spokesman Lewis Macdonald, speaking today).

  29. Flower of Scotland says:

    I’m slightly worried that the UK Gov. might decide to have a referendum in Scotland on the lines of …do you want to leave the U.K. Could they do that at a time of their liking?

  30. galamcennalath says:

    No where else, will you find such an accurate overview of where we are, and where we are going.

    And underlying it is a good plan … get wavering NOs to realise there is only one option, then win IndyRef2.

  31. HandandShrimp says:

    I see Kezia is doing her Unionist broken record thing. I really despair of Scottish Labour ever having any balls and direction again.

    Don’t expect the Tories to back devolving more powers and Scotland having access to the single market though…they are mostly closet Brexiteers anyway.

  32. Liz g says:

    What might be interesting is to work out how many ideas Westminster will steal from the Scottish Government’s paper to use for their own negotiation’s.
    The Westminster Government have no clue how to proceed, chances are that they will once again have to look to Scotland to enlighten them as to a way forward.
    Same as it ever was!!

    Could be amusing for when we are bored?

  33. JLT says:

    Well …it looks like we many need a new Wee Blue Book. It’ll certainly need changes to it, since as you say Stuart, ‘the arguments of 2014 have been turned upside down‘. Possible fundraiser on the horizons.

    You also say that, ‘pretty much nothing even a little bit interesting is going to happen‘, but I kind of disagree. No-one knows how the discussions between the EU and the UK are going to go. I suspect that there could be some blazing arguments, and then equally fuelled by a UK Media when something is denied to the UK. I can picture the xenophobic headlines deriding the EU, which surely, when the Europeans see them, could lead to further fiery rhetoric between the two parties.

    Then there is the ‘pretendy’ diplomatic visits to China, India and the States where the UK Government will be all smiles on the outside, but once behind closed doors, they will literally be their knees begging for a trade deal or any sort. What deals will be struck, and what part of the UK soul will be sold in exchange? Faustian deals possibly await.

    Then there is the possibility that if Nicola was to call a Referendum at a later point in 2017, then that will have huge implications in Britain. The UK Government will then be fighting on two fronts; one in Europe and one in their Scottish backyard. What would such a scenario do to Sterling as well as the Business sector throughout the UK. If everything became truly volatile and unstable, then it has the potential to have more Scots looking to the lifeboats to escape the great ship of Britannica. It would be Westminster’s worst nightmare, and literally, no one has ever won fighting on two major fronts; usually something gives.

    Personally, I think next year has the potential to be a decisive date in British history. The year that it potentially all unravelled.

  34. Capella says:

    James Naughtie on R4 Today this morning was hinting at Nicola secretly wanting more devolution rather than independence – which we can’t afford. Obviously. I guess that “The Vow” 2 is being drafted. Some more useless pretend “powers” to pacify the farmers and fishermen.
    At 2:35:50

    Looked on BBC website for video of Nicola’s speech. None.

  35. Peter A Bell says:

    Spot on with everything but the timing of #indyref2; which I remain convinced will be September 2018.

    Having said that, perhaps the most important point in this article is the first one, about there being no separate Brexit deal for Scotland. For all everybody knows that Nicola Sturgeon is simply going through the motions by submitting the Scottish Government’s proposals, it is a crucially important action, for a number of reasons. It sends a clear signal of intent to our friends in Europe. And the UK Government can hardly be accused of rejecting the Scottish Government’s position if that position is not explicitly stated. It may be gesture politics. But it is far from an empty gesture.

    Arguably the most critical aspect of this is the manner in which the Yes movement as a whole responds to the anticipated rejection of the proposals. We can be sure that the British media will relish portraying this as a deserved personal ‘snub’to Nicola Sturgeon and a ‘failure’ of her administration. We can be certain also that the British parties in Scotland will revel in the anticipated abuse, even if they have to be cautious about explicitly celebrating the disrespect to Scotland’s voters.

    I wish I could be confident that the entire Yes movement would get fully behind the First Minister and the SNP administration as they make a stand on Scotland’s behalf against the arrogant might of the British state. Experience, however, bids me expect that some elements of the Yes movement will be woefully eager to run with the British nationalist narrative – sniping and carping at the SNP using language lifted directly from the mainstream media.

    At which point, those of us who recognise the need to present a united front at this critical juncture in our fight for independence may well despair of any hope for success in #indyref2, whenever it is called.

  36. Macart says:

    @Doug Daniel

    Couldn’t agree more.

  37. schrodingers cat says:

    Les Wilson

    working out how such tarrif barriers would effect scotlands trade is a lot simpler than working out the effect england, not just because we are only 8.4% of the population but also because scotlands business sector is top heavy and loaded by 4 or 5 very large industries,
    1. we know brexit is bad for uk car manufacturers but scotlands car manufacturing is now tiny, ie, albion motors, etc
    2. tourism isnt an export
    3. oil and fish are exports but are not something that can be ade or bought elsewhere, etc

    an article covering scotlands industry and exports would be useful

  38. yesindyref2 says:

    I had a quick look at Sturgeon’s “Scotland’s Place in Europe” paper, pretty much as expected. Also at a couple of comments from NO voters btl in the Herald, and it occurs to me that I’m not going to do anything about it.

    This isn’t a plan for us, it’s a plan for the NO Remain voters, and the more the NO + Leave voters try to rip it apart “Westminster will never devolve all those powers”, the more they’re doing our job for us. Perhaps the odd “provocative” posting to get them frothing at the mouth, like “well if Westminster doesn’t it’s bye-bye Union”.

    Then all that’s left is Indy Ref 2, as the only option.

    Sturgeon has set the trap and the Unionists are jumping in with glee. Wheeeeeeee!

  39. schrodingers cat says:

    the Jockalypse: whereby Scotland keeps England in the EU against its will.

    Jockageddon: The laughter paralysing Scotland due to the above!

  40. HandandShrimp says:

    I note that some commentators view the proposals as leaving little left that is reserved.

    Interesting set of proposals but I can already hear Tomkins head exploding

    🙂 🙂

  41. yesindyref2 says:

    Welcome to the YES Campaign. Your most appropriate YES group is called “Accidentally YES”, and other regular posters will be happy to direct you to where you can purchase your appropriate badge and other memorabilia.

    You and many others like you are helping to make the YES campaign cover 100% of Scotland’s electorate, thank you for your help.

    Together we will make Indy Ref 2 the huge success it deserves to be.

  42. JaceF says:

    I’ve come to the conclusion that there are in fact five constituent UK nationalities.
    And British
    What’s interesting are these quotes:
    “The analysis also reveals that those whose ethnicity is white British are the least likely to describe their identity as British – just 14%. About half of people with black or Asian ethnicity picked British”
    “Outside London, the most British local authorities are Slough, Leicester, Luton and Birmingham – all places with high levels of ethnic diversity.”
    It got me thinking what Nationality do most Unionist Scots identify with? Scottish or British?
    I’m pretty sure the answer is British but it’s delusional to regard this as the UK’s national identity, it’s a minority at most and looks like it’s identified as belong to minority groups south of the border which may explain the Brexit result. I’m pretty sure that the majority of British identifying remain voters would be found in Scotland. It might be interesting to explore and explode the differences in British and Unionist ideals in order to separate the confusion, I doubt many British identified Scots are aware that the British identity is not a shared one across the whole of the UK.

  43. ClanDonald says:

    I know Nicola needs to exhaust all the options but what happens if the tories do actually decide we’re all getting a soft brexit after all and choose the Norway model?

    Does that mean we’ve lost the chance for an indyref2 for at least a decade?

  44. Richardinho says:

    The Yoon positions in a nutshell:

    On Scottish Independence:

    ‘An independent Scotland will mean impenetrable economic and physical barriers going up around Scotland..Negotiating trade deals will take decades and will lead to Scottish business losing out…People wont be able to travel freely anymore between European countries from Scotland..’

    On Brexit:
    ‘The Brexit will not result in any significant changes to our trading relations with the rest of Europe because the government will do a deal with the EU that pretty much keeps the current situation the same. Businesses will still be able to trade with Europe in the same way and people will still be able to travel to Europe without getting a visa..’

    So I’ve paraphrased a bit there, but I don’t think anyone can say the broad strokes are inaccurate.

  45. heedtracker says:

    Xmas haiku. He’ll be speaking in tongues next.

    @Willie_Rennie dismisses @NicolaSturgeon’s EU proposals as ‘one expensive exercise in Christmas window dressing’

  46. Macart says:

    Something that can’t be pointed out often enough to unionist politicians or their support IMO, is that this whole situation is NOT of either the Scottish electorate’s or the Scottish Government’s making.

    They didn’t vote for this in 2014 and they didn’t vote for it in 2016. Also worth noting that the current party of Scottish Government, which also forms the majority of Scotland’s representation to Westminster, have a pretty clear history on their EU stance and the mandate to back it up.

    No one forced UK gov. to drive a horse and cart through their other pledges and assurances to Scotland’s electorate. Equally no one forced them to launch a referendum which would put the indyref result at constitutional odds with the EU result.

    Bottom line? The ongoing constitutional and economic omnishambles that is Brexit was entirely down to UK government idiocy, arrogance and ignorance.

    NO ONE else need apply.

  47. Richardinho says:

    I do have a question though about the UK’s government Brexit position:

    They are stringing everyone along with this line that they’re going to make a deal and allowing people to think that they can have Brexit without any obvious material changes.

    Are they not just softening us up for not having Brexit at all?

    I think the possibility of article 50 simply not being triggered – or perhaps only in a meaningless ‘ceremonial’ way – is very real indeed.

  48. Liz g says:

    Flower of Scotland @ 12.40
    Crossed my mind as well ….But I don’t think they would take the risk.
    They would also have to have an offer/bribe in mind to try to secure a no vote,and it would have to be new power’s.
    I personally think that Nicola Sturgeon has been slowly but surely getting them into a position,where they are ruling out any more powers.
    With a view to keeping “Devo Max” off the ballot paper and out of Indy Ref 2.

    The only risk for us is that a no vote would mean a new act of the Union.
    Getting across that agreeing to that would remove the option we have always felt we had for Independence if we choose it.
    Will be very difficult to do.

    It might look like a reasonable enough proposal to have voted for,but by the time it got through Westminster, the amendment’s inserted in to it , would almost certainly,I think, make any attempt to hold an independanc vote impossible.

    I could even put my tin hat on here and say that.
    If all the rummors about the new oil descoveries are true!
    Then a UK out from under the EU with Scotland locked in, makes perfect sense of Westminster and the MSMs actions over the past few years.
    Saudi Arabia doesn’t worry about custom/trade or any other kind of Union,it pretty much does what it likes and only concerns itself about dealing with the US.

    But then I remember the look on their faces the morning after Brexit,take my tin hat off and go back to thinking that they really are that stupid.

  49. desimond says:

    All good etc but a few thoughts spring to mind

    The circling of the wagons has already begun and with Trump getting inside the White House then “a bigger global worry” (* take your pick of a NEW/OLD enemy) will be touted to divert troops overseas and diminish any Scots go it alone news

    re Another referendum:
    The UK government refusing one would be political suicide.

    For whom?
    Westminster would simply say “So what?” and leave the SNP standing there talking about democracy and fairness whilst the media ignore them and go chase squirrel. Scottish Labour, Liberals and The Ruth party would love it as they wouldn’t be impacted and indeed may profit.

    Even if SNP walked away and said they couldn’t be in Westminster, would the public even notice? It wouldn’t impact votes in the house. Would they walk out of Holyrood and risk the media saying they deserted the people and face the worse spin ever ( yeah it can get even worse I fear). The media would dismiss any protests as small fry and sadly the Scottish Publics apathy still knows no limits when it comes to heavily shrugging and saying “Oh well that’s that then!”

    I pray I am wrong of course but more and more I feel we are becoming yesterdays news.

  50. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2 12.54

    A trap you say?

    Let’s call it an opportunity for the UK government to come good and back up their bull..(cough), well publicised rhetoric about how the union is perceived.

    ‘Family of nations’ and all that. 🙂

  51. Richardinho says:

    BTW: does anyone know wtf David Davis is examining in that photo? 😉

  52. scunner says:

    @heedtracker says:
    20 December, 2016 at 12:27 pm
    It would be interesting to hear what Shonagh Munro thinks

    I’m sure she’s just toe-ing Kezia’s flip-flopping party line, given she’s “Chair of Edinburgh Labour Students”.

    Honestly, did BT literature ever use someone who wasn’t a brainwashed activist? I assume this young lady will feature as a candidate in some future election…

  53. North Chiel says:

    Absolutely spot on Liz @1246 . The “Brexit clueless” Tory government
    Will ” cherry pick” the most advantageous ideas for themselves
    from these proposals, whilst simoultaneously ensuring the absolute
    minimal benefit to Scotland.
    Teresa May and her cronies have absolutely no goodwill or credibility whatsoever
    with the rest of Europe , what a difference if our highly talented FM and her team could
    lead the Brexit negotiations both for Scotland and the UK .
    As a supposed equal partner in the 1707 union, if Scotland is sidelined
    by Westminster in these negotiations then the “Union” is well and truly over.
    The ball is now in TM’s court. Either give us ” partial independence in Europe”
    or let’s go for Indyref 2

  54. yesindyref2 says:

    @Heed “@Willie_Rennie dismisses @NicolaSturgeon’s EU proposals as ‘one expensive exercise in Christmas window dressing’

    He’s the first to fall into the trap. Perhaps not surprising! Poor Wullie.

    Yes it’s a trap for the UK Government as well, but I was thinking more of the NO activists in Scotland – like Wullie. The more they criticise this compromise plan, the more they’re saying that Independence is the only way. Caught in a trap!

  55. velofello says:

    A core principle for the Unionists is to term the UK as the country. And so Tomkins on Sunday Politics states that Scotland voted to remain in the UK in 2014 – issue settled. And the UK voted to leave the EU in 2016. The fact that 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU can be ignored is the Unionist stance.

    A broader view and concern should be the democratic issue facing Scotland, and England.45% of Scots in 2014 voted to leave the UK despite the full might of the Uk establishment’s media opposing independence and wilfully lying – not a healthy outcome. And then in 2016, 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU, but are outvoted by the greater population of England.

    So anywhere between 45% to 62% of Scots are dissatisfied with the political arrangements in the UK.

    Somethings gotta give.

  56. DerekM says:

    As the yoons searched frantically for the two great bastions of unionism Ruth the mooth and Kez the dunderheid who had disappeared into hiding after a roar of awa ya fecking eejits cried through out the land of Scotland,hark the tory press shitehawks in dilemma turn to their court jester.

    Wullie do something they cry so Wullie puffs out his wee chest has a look about for wee dugs wanting to punch him in the coupon and does his wee spin only to fall on his arse to all Scotland laughing their heads off.

  57. yesindyref2 says:

    The thing is this. The Scottish Government were effectively given a mandate from the people in Indy Ref 1 to go for Devo-Max, and in the EU Ref, to go for staying in the EU – or perhaps the single market via EFTA / EEA. They don’t need another Referendum to get approval for this, they already have the democratic mandate – including the manifestoes for both Westminster and Holyrood elections. They’re completely covered just to proceed with this plan of Sturgeon’s, and implement it, no need for further approval from the People of Scotland.

    To stay in / rejoin the EU, or to join EFTA / EEA looking at the requirements, Scotland needs to be a Sovereign country. That means Zero “reserved” powers, the status quo regarding defence and some others would have to be at the sole option of the Scottish Government. Which would then decide which powers to delegate to Westminster on our behalf. Cough, reversible at the will of the Scottish parliament.

    But this solution has the theoretical backing of the 55% NOes plus the 45% YES during Indy Ref 1, plus 62% in the EU Ref, plus an uncertain amount of the Leaves who might endorse EFTA / EEA but not the EU. I’ve seen them posting.

    So what’s the problem, Willie, Ruth, Kezia – and Theresa? Just do it.

  58. Macart says:


    Heh, ‘course it is. The FM did exactly and to the letter, what the job demanded of her, which is exactly what the unionist parties didn’t want.

    They were desperate for the FM to head straight for an indyref, to NOT attempt a compromise which would address ALL of the electorate’s constitutional concerns.

    How very dare she and all that. 😀

    Now they’re going to have to justify why they’re not backing the Scottish government’s attempt to remain in both unions.

    I’d wish them luck with that, but…. y’know. 🙂

  59. Peter Clive says:

    We are going to hear a lot about “Scotland has four times as much trade with rUK as with the EU” from the unionists today.

    This is a deliberate, misleading and entirely illogical distraction, as the only way Scotland can be placed at a relative disadvantage is if rUK imposes extraordinary measures akin to a new Alien Act.

    So whenever this argument is raised demand that the person advocating it clarifies if that is what they mean. You’ll most likely find they haven’t thought it through and are motivated (even without realising it) by anti-Scottish sentiment or cringe.

    If the UK did put in place some special penalisation for Scotland they would jeopardise any deal with the EEA. You can’t pick and choose which bits of a bloc to talk to. That’s what makes it a bloc.

  60. Artyhetty says:

    Excellent article. Once Art50 is signed, how long might it take to the final sinking, up s**t creek without a paddle take? Scotland would need to have a referendum before that final air bubble reaches the surface. If we have a referendum say in spring 2019, wouldn’t it take a while after a yes result for Scotland to fully extricate itself from rUKOK?

    Just wondering how this whole process (mess), regards timing will all work out, being a novice on such things.

    We can expect more sabotaging of jobs, industry, people, and environment in Scotland, from WM, whatever happens in between all this shenanigans.

    One thing which came to mind reading the article, was that this brexit thing is huge, absolutely massive, regards the consequences for Scotland, do people realise just how important that decision by england and Wales, is? Not sure they do.

  61. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Tragically, the senile vote will kill off a yes vote-again.

    Add the fact that age group appeared to be the most pro Brexit.

  62. galamcennalath says:

    Willie Rennie. …. “The First Minister has ruled out keeping the UK in the EU which breaks her promise to consider all the options. “

    WTF!? And exactly how is Nicola going to keep the UK in the EU? There are various options, but that is no longer realistically one of them!

  63. Or, what;s a Scottish Office for?

  64. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, and the beauty of it is it doesn’t even matter if they completely realise it’s a trap, and perhaps the more so the better.

    They have a choice between jumping into the trap going like “ouch, that hurts”, or helping Sturgeon close the trap on May.

    Which way will they jump?

  65. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “in that an EU-Scotland wouldn’t be able to set its own trading rules with the rUK, it would be stuck with whatever agreements are established between rUK and the whole of the EU (as I somewhat naively understand it – feel free to tell me I’m wrong).”

    Yes, that’s the point I made in the 2 October article that’s linked in the piece.

  66. Liz g says:

    Peter Clive @ 1.48
    Absolutely Peter,this can’t be pointed out often enough.
    While we are in Europe, Westminster has no power to damage our trade.

    A New Ailen act….In their dreams,those day are long gone.
    Also would be cancelling out the 1707 Treaty anyways.

    They are left with only being able to hint that that’s what they would do.
    Infact it might possibly do them more damage,if they are publicly proclaiming (again) that they will take steps to ensure Scotland’s trade is damaged.
    This time… THIS TIME..They are acting against an EU country and we are entitled to all the protections of the block.
    A block they themselves can’t afford to do with out.

    So yes it is an empty threat Peter,and we need to make sure people understand that.
    And understand they are being lied to by people who know fine well it’s a lie.

    Once again the Union cannot present genuine reasons to stay in it.
    A second chance for them to convince Scotland that it’s worth continuing with this shared Parliament milarky…And they have nothing…Well nothing that’s real.

  67. Arbroath1320 says:

    Sorry for going O/T here.

    Just in case anyone has not seen this here is, what I think,a great demolition job of oor wee Kez’s “new” Act of Union thingy.

    p.s. great post … as per usual Stu.

  68. Macart says:


    ‘Which way will they jump?’

    Well, now that is a question.

    It’ll depend on just how confident they are of the pro UK vote. They’ll know a lot of 2014 NO voters will have been of EU or other points of origin who were not convinced of the indy case and voted for what they saw as the more ‘stable’ option.

    That boat has well and truly sailed by this point I’d say. Those voters are now staring at a somewhat xenophobic, isolationist UK with some pretty hairy and draconian immigration policies t’boot. As the Rev points out, the more stability option in any indyref2 scenario would be an independent Scotland.

    ‘Course what they need to do is put out a national survey to guage the mood of the nation and see what the people think.

    Oh wait… 🙂

    Gut feeling is they’ll do what they’ve always done. Back UK government right ot wrong and to hell with what people think or need. They’ve invested too much in the narrative I reckon. That and they simply don’t have the courage to go back to the electorate and admit they got it wrong.

  69. schrodingers cat says:

    an EU-Scotland wouldn’t be able to set its own trading rules with the rUK, it would be stuck with whatever agreements are established between rUK and the whole of the EU

    yes, but the ruk couldnt set its own trading rules with scotland alone, they would be the agreed eu rules, ie, they couldnt disadvantage scottish trade without doing the same to trade from the rest of the eu

    important since kicking an indy scotland is all that westminster has left by way of a bt2 argument

  70. Spikethedee says:

    So, to all Unionists who may comment on this:

    Scotland does more trade with rUK than EU. Can this be proved via verifiable, independent statistics? If so, please provide them. If not, how can it be the basis of a logical argument?

    If the above position is the case, would rUK not be able to have a trade deal with Scotland in the Single Market(SSM)? If so, what’s the problem? If not, how can rUK have trade deals with anyone else in the Single Market?

    If there’s to be no trade deal between rUK & SSM (and, by extension, the rest of the Single Market), why on earth wouldn’t firms from Germany, France, Spain etc want to do MORE trade with SSM compared to rUK?

  71. galamcennalath says:

    From Scotland’s Place in Europe …

    190. The Scottish Government believes the best option for Scotland is to be an independent member of the EU. The people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU on 23 June. Moreover, we concur with those who believe that the Leave prospectus put forward during the referendum was deeply awed and that the lack of preparation for leaving by those responsible for that campaign remains a deeply damaging aspect of the current constitutional crisis.

    191. The current situation is not of our making – it has been caused by the original flawed decision to hold the EU referendum and the subsequent majority for Leave in England and Wales. ….

    Nail, head, hit.

  72. yesindyref2 says:

    With any luck and perhaps a bit of manipulation, the best advocates for a YES vote in Indy Ref 2 will be the most extreme of the anti-SNP activists and politicians. Tomkins will be unknowingly on our side!

    Another factor in this is that even if the rUK goes for EFTA / EEA, what it negotiates as its terms and package might not be the same as what Scotland would need for our EFTA /EEA package. Quite a few things are voluntary, which for instance Norway signs up to. The devil will be in the detail. So even if the rUK does go for EFTA / EEA, it may well not stop Scotland needing our own separate membership, and hence a lot more powers – even the lot.

  73. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, Greens (Ross Greer) doing a word perfect tag team on the ScotGov paper. I love it. While praising the paper, he says it’s a compromise and the only way is Indy. Brilliant.

  74. DerekM says:

    @ Artyhetty

    Well since the timeline will be run from the EU parliament i dont think we have any worries on westminster trying to conclude A50 and brexit before the Scottish and NI question can be answered,it will be up to the EU parliament to conclude A50 and brexit not westminster.

    Shoe on the other foot for the mother of all parliaments.

  75. Dan Huil says:

    Excellent article summing up what’s to come, although I have to say I have a certain feelin’ in ma watters that 2017 could turn out to be more exiting than we expext. I’m thinking about Westminster’s actions/reactions more than anything else. Especially from the rabid britnats who will keep on May’s back and will also take any opportunity to put down Scotland. We can also expect the britnat media to up the anti-Scottish rhetoric – again. If it does seem a wee bit quiet then we can concentrate our attack on the britnat bbc. I believe the bbc misreporting Scotland campaign will have impact in our favour.

  76. starlaw says:

    Theresa May has said that she will negotiate special conditions to keep the Financial Heart of London in the EU. So why not Scotland.

  77. frogesque says:

    May waffling at the Liaison Committee.

    One thing absolutely crystal clear, Scotland can fuck right off and wave the UJ as we get back in the shortbread tin.

  78. Taranaich says:

    EVERYONE SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO DOUG DANIEL (yes I know he typed it and you’re reading it so nobody’s talking just you know what I mean):

    (Folk could of course fill in their spare time volunteering for their local SNP council campaign, as the Tories are going to be chucking a lot of money and resources at it, and we will almost certainly see some surprises being thrown up, like Aberdeenshire West, Edinburgh Central and North-East Fife this year… I would say to everyone reading this blog who lives in Scotland: if you woke up on the 6th May this year feeling disappointed that the SNP didn’t get a majority, then next year, make sure you volunteer to deliver leaflets and chap doors, so we can get as many councils as possible taken out of unionist control.)

    We’ve seen Davidson’s horde are eying up Scotland, & their coffers are vast. They can afford to treat this as a *game*, to get some of their darlings a bit of experience before carting them south to a safe Tory seat, as evidenced by the number of Scots-born Tory MPs in high places. You think Alexander Burnett, descended from Russian royalty, educated in Eton, son of aristocracy, got to his position through hard graft & understanding the voters? The Libs are retreating to their strongholds in the Islands and enclaves in the East. The Other Party are in a complete meltdown and in no position to fight back. We’ve already seen the three British Nationalist parties are all too ready to unite to keep an SNP minority administration out: with the vagaries of PR and the precedent of all those Other Party councillors who got in on the back of Tory 2nd votes, we know it’s a danger.

    We underestimate the duplicity, resources and determination of the UK Government Party at our peril. Inverclyde seems like a safe SNP bet for next year, but all it takes is a low SNP turnout, the Tories of Kilmacolm & the East End lending their vote to the Other Party in 2nd pref, and disgruntled steadfast Red Clydesiders who’d rather throw their lot in with Ruth Davidson than Nicola Sturgeon, & the SNP might not win the council. We were damned fortunate to have such a massive swell of support & popular individual candidates in 2015 & 2016, both of whom received overall majorities. I won’t dare rest on my laurels and assume third time will be a charm.

    @Rev: Absolutely. But we already know that, which is why it’s going to be so agonisingly dull.

    I was wondering what you were meaning by 2017 being dull: I couldn’t understand why. Now I get it. *Shudders*

    @Doug Daniel: The “rUK won’t trade with Scotland” thing needs to be completely and utterly nailed, incidentally. It’s very simple: if Scotland is in the single market, then the only way we’d be prevented from trading with rUK is if the rest of the single market couldn’t trade with rUK either. The hardest of hard Brexits. Total isolation. The North Korea option.

    Then the meme will be “Scotland won’t be in the single market,” despite everything we’ve heard from the EU on an independent Scotland’s chances. It’ll be like the pensions question: even when the DWP itself publishes a letter saying there’d be no changes, you get brass-necked instruments like Blair McDougall tubaing otherwise.

    @Peter A. Bell: Spot on with everything but the timing of #indyref2; which I remain convinced will be September 2018.

    I’m sorely tempted to bet Rev a tenner it’ll be sometime in 2018, but then, I honestly wouldn’t rule anything out, the way things have been going.

  79. schrodingers cat says:

    Here is the latest trade figures between Scotland and England. From a BBC report prior to Indy. So likely to have been watered down however they still show.

    “The most recent Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland.”

    The figures still show who has what to lose. So as I said this crap should be shot down every time the stuff trade with England could be lost. Just a scare tactic, it would never happen in reality. Both sides would lose badly.

    Scotland would be really hurt but given the debt and GDP in England they could not take it easily either. Their economy is hurting, without losing trade with Scotland, enforcing a hard border would be shooting themselves in the foot with many many jobs lost and businesses failing.

  80. Proud Cybernat says:

    The UK Gov HAS TO dismiss the SG’s proposals, regardless of how useful and sensible they may actually be. They simply MUST dismiss the proposals because it is all part of their long-term strategy to win what they know is coming down the line – IndyRef#2.

    And they have to dismiss these proposals NOW because they will use it during IndyRef#2 as their “VOW 2” in order to, once again, split the YES vote, to attract enough waverers. (Why do you think Cameron ensured Devo-Max was NOT on the ballot paper? Because, if it looked like YES were going to win, he wanted to use it at the last mimnute to split the YES vote. And it worked. They are doing the same with these proposals announced today).

    And, of course, you know what will happen next if NO do win IndyRef#2 having played the VOW2 card (i.e. agree to most of the FM’s proposals announced today). These VOW2 promises will go exactly the same way that VOW1 promises went. Scotland will have Voted NO (again) on empty WM promises for they will give us precisely hee-haw–as they did last time.

    And we will have totally effing deserved it for believing the feckers.

    So, now you know why WM will NEVER accept the FM’s sensible and intelligent proposals any time before IndyRef#2 – because they will use those very proposals against us when the time is right and of their choosing.

    Aye, they are all there and then some that WM lot.

    We MUST hammer home the point that WM BROKE VOW1 and CANNOT BE TRUSTED with VOW2 (when it comes – and it most surely will).

  81. Les Wilson says:

    schrodingers cat

    Worth noting that the figures do not include oil!

  82. starlaw says:

    Not long in and have just caught up with reading previous posts.
    If Scotland remains in the EU and as many fear England take retaliatory action against trade with Scotland. The Eu. need only close the channel ports for three days and Shelves in rest of the UK would be empty.
    Scotland has several ports on its east coast, enough to service the country.
    For the first time in History the boot is not on Westminsters foot

  83. Richardinho says:

    I agree that 2017 may be a dull year, however I’d caution that it’s in the ‘dull year that things in politics tend to get done.(This is a lesson from the US where Republicans won lots of local elections in off years allowing them to enforce voter suppression laws in the Presidential election) Elections are fun but it’s vital to keep an eye on things going on when major elections aren’t happening. This is what I trust WoS to do.

  84. Frances says:

    This is Theresa May to the Liaison Committee regarding the Scottish Brexit proposals. Take note of these words as I suspect we will hear them more and more:

    If it became independent, it would no longer be a member of the EU, or the EU single market, or the UK single market. And the UK single market is worth four times as much to Scotland as the EU single market, she says.

  85. Dan Huil says:

    @Frances 3:02pm

    “If it became independent, it would no longer be a member of the EU, or the EU single market, or the UK single market. And the UK single market is worth four times as much to Scotland as the EU single market, she says.”

    I don’t know, I think it would help us if she did repeat such crap over and over again as it’s so palpably false that even No voters would reject it.

  86. yesindyref2 says:

    Nice one. And Dugdale isn’t far behind jumping into the pile of leaves hiding a rock in the middle. Ouch. That’s gotta hurt.

  87. Arbroath1320 says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    20 December, 2016 at 2:36 pm

    Another factor in this is that even if the rUK goes for EFTA / EEA, what it negotiates as its terms and package might not be the same as what Scotland would need for our EFTA /EEA package. Quite a few things are voluntary, which for instance Norway signs up to. The devil will be in the detail. So even if the rUK does go for EFTA / EEA, it may well not stop Scotland needing our own separate membership, and hence a lot more powers – even the lot.

    If I remember rightly Yesindyref2 Norway has already said they are against rUK/UK joining EFTA. (Think Iceland were also against but not sure) So before May can even get that ball rolling it’s been blootered oot the park.

  88. Golfnut says:

    The import/ export details between Scotland and England seems to be pretty obscure, perhaps deliberately so. For instance, food production. As I understand it, England produces only about 25% of their requirements, Scotland has surplus. Is some of the exports to England food grown here, but returned to Scotland via the Supermarket chains processed in England, it would come back at a higher value.
    Are vehicles manufactured abroad, but delivered to English ports and moved on to Scotland classed as imports from England. Would they not,in an Independent Scotland come directly to Scotland. Would that not apply to fruit and and veg, wine etc from Europe.

  89. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Exactly trust the highly untrustworthy brit establishment in the Westminster Parliament/Whitehall etc word and actions like you would trust a cobra-snake in your garden.

    Dont let them fool you again…….

  90. Stoker says:

    Getting your excuses in early Rev? That yins right up there with the dog eating the homework.

    You know, Rev, that article just reeks of Ah telt ye so! NAH NAH NAHNAH NAH! 😀

    See, i can do that too! Mystic Wingers, eh! Don’t ya just luv us!

    The Rev wrote:
    ” It’s going to be the most tedious year in Scottish politics since we started this website, and perhaps since the advent of devolution.

    Aye, an dinny furrget, a loat ae us huv stull tae cum doon fae yon dizzying political heights ae the past few years. It’s gaunny be ah helluva frustrating year furr ah loat ae us.

    The Rev wrote:
    “..we can link to it every week and go and do something useful with our time instead.”

    Ideal time for you to start working on and planning your next big Indyref blockbuster, ie; The Wee Gold Book 😉

  91. Iain says:

    Well, at least if you want a break from the excitement of watching paint dry, there will be the branch office leadership contest after May. Then again, watching paint dry can be quite inspiring.

  92. davidb says:

    Never mind getting books. Spend the two years productively. Raise money – we need it. Develop better leaflets and learn your brief. And above all, work on the soft nos.

    And instead of criticising the elderly, explain to them why it is in their interests to vote yes, or failing that persuade them to stay at home and at least do the only thing Labour does consistently – abstain!

  93. uno mas says:

    @Schrodingers Cat 12.54pm

    In your reply to Les Wilson you opinioned about three aspects of the Scottish economy on which I would respectfully like to comment.

    In the first you wrote that (and I know that you wrote cars but I am sure you were referring to auto vehicles in general) that the Scottish car industry was tiny and only represented by Albion Motors to which I am sure you forgot about Alexander Dennis who as you know manufacture buses and fire engines. They operate in Falkirk, employ 2,300 people had a turnover last year of 451 million and are majority owned by a supporter of Scottish independence.

    Second point was that “tourism isn´t an export” and I really must disagree srongly with that.
    One of the principal benefits of export business is that it generates an ingress of foreign currency to the recipient countries economy and of that there can be no better example than tourism. The advantage being that you don´t actually have to put things in boxes and on to trucks and planes etc and then wait for the funds to come from the end user. The customers will purchase accommodation and transport and then bring cash to your doorstep in the form of credit cards which they will then use to buy services such as food and drink and manufactured goods as souvenirs(whisky, kilts, salmon, jimmy wigs) which they then carry themselves to their country of origin.

    Tourism isn´t an export in the tradition sense of a physical entity but rather it´s the exportation of a concept about the destination nations culture, lifestyle, cuisine, country side and the character of the inhabitants (are they friendly) so it is most certainly an export.

    Your last point about oil and fish I couldn´t understand as there was a typo at the end but if you meant that these industries were´t unique to Scotland then with the exception of whisky that would apply to everything and we would have to compete in the market place for our share.

    That´s business.

  94. One_Scot says:

    Yoons be mouth foaming today. Tick tock as they say.

  95. galamcennalath says:

    Timescales and IndyRef2.

    Assuming A50 is March 2017, the EU appears to be saying 18 months negotiating, then 6 months to ratify throughout the 27 because some aspects are reserved to national parliaments.

    But negotiate and ratify what? The Tories think they can discuss both the divorce settlement AND the new relationship in parallel, however the EU seems to be saying divorce settlement first, then we can talk futures which might take many years. So, it rather looks like the 18months is just for divorce settlement negotiations!

    We won’t have IndyRef2 until public opinion has shifted AND/OR the probable post Brexit situation has clearly become so awful, a referendum is necessary. IMO either, or both, situations could trigger IR2.

    At which point does the true nature of the post Brexit set up become obvious? The Tories and the EU are going to have to show some cards soon. It may become clear fairly quickly that single market for Scotland (either with the rest of the UK, or in a more devolved status) won’t happen. We may not know the final deal, but it may be clearly in the realms of ‘too hard’ long before talks end.

    If that happens, public opinion will shift to Yes, I think. I have the feeling that if Indy were to become the preferred option for the majority, and that becomes very apparent, IndyRef2 will follow regardless of the formal EU negotiating timetable.

    I therefore think The Rev’s Spring 2019 is a max timescale. It could be sooner.

  96. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, Norway aren’t keen because of the size of the rUK and potentially their dominance. I don’t blame them. But even if they manage it, that angle’s covered in the different levels of engagement. Scotland is likely to want a lot more than the rUK.

    The rUK’s more likely course apart from hard Brexit is direct via the EEA, which would I think suit Scotland even less.

  97. One_Scot says:

    If I didn’t know any better, I would think the Yoons are cacking their pants for some reason.

  98. Arbroath1320 says:

    I agree with your points there yesindyref2.

    From what I recall Norway were against the UK entering EFTA due to its size.

    I also agree that no matter what May and her morons want for rUK it will not suit what Scotland needs.

  99. Capella says:

    Doesn’t Article VI of the Union with Scotland Act 1706 prohibit different customs, tariffs etc being applied to Scotland and England? So wouldn’t an English attempt to place tariffs on Scottish goods be a breach of the Treaty of Union?

    “Regulations of Trade, Duties, &c.
    That all parts of the United Kingdom for ever from and after the Union shall have the same Allowances Encouragements and Drawbacks and be under the same prohibitions restrictions and regulations of Trade and liable to the same Customs and Duties on Import and Export And that the Allowances Encouragements and Drawbacks prohibitions restrictions and regulations of Trade and the Customs and Duties on Import and Export settled in England when the Union commences shall from and after the Union take place throughout the whole United Kingdom “

    In fact, doesn’t the different National Grid feed in charges breach the Union Treaty?

  100. In regard to next years local elections I am surprised that people who are politically savvy still don’t understand the STV system of elections works.

    I had some people telling me it is a great result for the SNP in winning the Leven by-election by 400 votes.

    They are gobsmacked when I inform them that after second preference votes etc were taken into account, we only won the by-election by 48 votes

  101. liz says:

    For me the simplest way to debunk, we sell more to rUK than EU, is to compare populations.

    It’s not logical to say you can sell more to 60 million folk than 509 million.

    Plus what does England have to sell us?
    Manufacturing is down the toilet and HMRC figs show London and the SE import twice as much as they export AND Scotland (excluding oil & gas) exports more than we import

  102. galamcennalath says:

    Scottish Labour’s Europe spokesman Lewis Macdonald said: “… we are very clear that Labour will not support anything that puts Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom at risk. The SNP’s Brexit paper should accept that remaining in the UK is even more important to Scotland than being part of the European Union.”

    It is their firm opinion that remaining in the UK matters most. Their Union and the intergrity of the UK comes first, even if unfolding facts prove it is not is Scotland’s interests. When we reach the stage of hard Brexit versus Indy, Labour will stand with their Union regardless.

    Slow harakiri continues.

  103. sandycraig says:

    SNP have to be commended for producing this document. Kez and Ruthie will be spinning wondering how to argue against this without making fools of themselves again.

    Starlaw @3.00pm See Aberdeen want to build a new harbour. Looking to the future do you think?

    O/T Flicking through the channels last night and came across Foulks and Malcolm Bruce in the HOL, on the question of Scotland and what the UK government is doing regarding brexit.

    What a pair of smug arsewipes both of them. Their smirking when criticizing the Scottish Government, and their whole attitude of “know your place serfs”, gets up my nose something hellish. Hard to believe people want to mock their country in that manner.

    Well DING DONG their day is coming fast.

  104. Breeks says:

    The elephant in the room is Scotland’s sovereignty.

    The arguments about Brexit, the political posturing, defining a grievance that leaves Scotland disadvantaged to the frustration enough soft no convertibles, then throw everything into pot, and pray the referendum which follows isn’t another stitch up like 2014, and that the result we all want to see isn’t stolen from us again.

    If we can make the case for Brexit changing the name of the game and prompting a reorganisation of the relationship Scotland has with the rUK, then for the life of me, I cannot fathom why the issue of Scotland’s subjugated sovereignty and the bogus foundation upon which the Act of Union now teeters, cannot be articulated as another benchmark argument which cannot be reconciled with the Union as it is.

    We have the law or our side, precedence and provenance to promote and legitimise our sovereignty, and parallel provenance for the abuse of our sovereignty to undermine the very fabric of the Union. There is nothing left hostage to the foibles of democracy or propagandised campaigning, but nor, (with care) is the fuse lit on open backlash or violent Unionist rebellion.

    Just as Brexit might see Scotland in a holding pen status pending resolution of Brexit arguments, then why couldn’t Scotland create its own constitutional limbo based upon the legal precedent of our recognised sovereignty, essentially neither independent nor united, but void pending a constitutional plebiscite to determine what Scotland should do?

    Here’s the thing… In that scenario, and even assuming the Unionist vote could trounce an Independence vote, they could not agree or ratify any “new” Act of Union which essentially kept the same flaws as the old one; the subjugation of Scotland’s sovereignty.

    Whether Scotland moved from its “void” towards Indy, or from void to a redefined Union, the new constitutional situation would at least be legally sound and competent; properly defined in law, and ratified by democratic principles.

    Love it or hate, Yesser or Yoon, Scotland’s constitutional rights would no longer be a disputed anachronism, and whether in Union with Europe, or indeed England, whichever path we chose, it would be a legitimate agreement which did not infringe upon our permanent sovereign integrity. Why do we hold on to the only Act of Union I know of, which demands any nation has to forfeit or compromise sovereign control of their country? It isn’t necessary to go that far.

    Correct what is broken, untangle the ramifications, and build a new constitution from a solid legal base, not some slight of hand which has to bend every rule to exist.

    What worries me, is my lack of faith in democracy and a referendum, or no, that isn’t quite true. I just cannot reconcile how democratic expression metamorphoses into recognition of legal precedent. Don’t we need the legal precedent established first, and then use democracy to wield the power which sovereignty gives us? We’re not doing it right…

    Indyref2, even with a YES result, does nothing by itself to address our constitutional absurdity, a binary question of sovereignty; are we sovereign or aren’t we?

  105. Valerie says:

    12.48 Peter A Bell

    Great points, as always.

    I have already seen references on Twitter, that France is covering Scotland’s latest plan to Remain.

    As we know, the document will be endlessly dissed, but it’s a handy hook for our supporters. A spokesperson for universities has also welcomed the document, stating recognises the importance and role of movement of students.

    It’s another marker put down, it’s a statement of intent. We just have to endure the tedious mud slinging that follows any attempt to better Scotland.

  106. Phil Robertson says:

    “Other than the mild distraction of the council elections in May – which are likely to be a bit of a damp squib due to the deadening effect of STV and the propensity of Labour and the Tories to do deals to keep the SNP out of power”

    The other problem the SNP will have is that it will be increasingly apparent that Derek Mackay’s budget will result in a cut in the money going to councils. The double book keeping and sophistry of talking about “available money” will seen for what it is – a con trick.

  107. yesindyref2 says:

    @Valerie “We just have to endure the tedious mud slinging that follows any attempt to better Scotland.

    I think it’s hilarious. Already there are those trying to poke holes in the paper and the beauty of it is, as Independence supporters we don’t have to support it, just as long as we refrain from cheering them on (too much) as they do our job for us!

    It’s a turkey shoot 🙂

    I see Andrew Neil is desperately trying to get out of having said cybernats are all on unemployment benefit: “Wikipedia definition is wrong. Vast majority of SNP online supporters are not cybernats, who spew out vile vitriol behind cloak of anonymity

    Poor Andrew. What a diddy. I wish we didn’t have to pay his wages.

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    @Phil Robertson
    Hello Andrew.

  109. heedtracker says:

    Stormin Norman knows. Avoid public rejection, just another day in this sneaky shit union.

    norman smith ?@BBCNormanS 6h6 hours ago
    No 10 avoid any public rejection of @ScotGovFM “single market” option but clear they remain “fundamentally opposed” to it.

  110. gus1940 says:

    Theresa May’s choice of colour for her leather trousers shows remarkable foresight – all she needs to complete the ensemble is a pair of bicycle clips.

  111. heedtracker says:

    The double book keeping and sophistry of talking about “available money” will seen for what it is – a con trick.

    Hardly matters in Scots politics Phil, does it. Hard core tories shriek highest taxed Scotland in your UK. Hard core SLab twits shriek hardest cuts ever in their UK.

    Talk about your mixed messages in teamGB Phil. Wonder where you land on it all in your mental as anything UK?

    Both probably. Its how the UK zone works.

  112. Luigi says:

    Doug Daniel says:

    20 December, 2016 at 11:58 am

    The “rUK won’t trade with Scotland” thing needs to be completely and utterly nailed,


    The “rUK is Scotland’s biggest trading partner” cluster bomb is going to be used relentlessly. It’s their main weapon.

    As Doug said, it can be dealt with. However, I hope that every single SNP politician is prepared for this. Now is the time to get the homework done and the answers prepared because the cluster bombs are coming.

    I do not want to see an SNP politican spluttering or floundering on this basic question. Or other YES spokespersons for that matter. Now is the time to prepare, folks. Itr’s not as if the yoons and their MSM are difficult to read, but we must have consistent, coherent answers.

    One of the cluster bomblets will be “our trade with rUK is four times that of the EU”. Well, this little beaut is already being upgraded – I heard “five times…” for the first time this morning.

    No excuses SNP politicians – prepare now.

  113. Marian says:

    The Britnats who make threats about Scotland’s trade with the rUK need to be reminded that trade goes both ways and retaliation could follow with the full support of the EU on Scotland’s side, and if Scotland is like Ireland and imports far more from the rUK than it exports to rUK it will be rUK that suffers the most in a trade war.

  114. heedtracker says:

    Italiano translate, its going to be a lot more accurate after its been through the hands of our assorted meeja fart bags tonight.

    Italian Media: Scotland reveals his plan to stay in the single market @RaiNews #brexit #Scotland #Europe

  115. heedtracker says:

    Germany too!

    Scotland wants to remain in the European Union reports Der Spiegel @SPIEGELONLINE #Brexit #Schottland #Europa

  116. schrodingers cat says:

    uno mas

    the main point i was making was that while scotland may have 8.4% of the uk population and trade, the variety of different business is much less than other parts of the uk, due to scotland being “top heavy” in a number of areas, eg oil and gas, tourism, whisy etc, It makes it easier to calculate the impact that tariff barriers will have on business in scotland

    the point about fish and oil was that they are commodities which cannot be replicated elsewhere, thus, many fishermen voted leave as they know that an increase in costs due to tariff barriers wont impact their sales, their catches are effectively sold before they are even bought etc.

  117. schrodingers cat says:

    a more detailed run down of businesses in scotland btl

  118. ScottieDog says:

    Regarding Scotland’s trade with rUK and tariffs etc, our main export will be surplus energy and energy isn’t a luxury. It’s a necessity.

  119. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Some years ago I worked for a company which delivered new trucks across the UK, on trade plates.

    The trucks – Scanias and Volvos from Sweden, MAN and ERF from Germany, generally came into East Coast ports – Hull, Immingham, Felixstowe, Teesport, Harwich and Tilbury, whre we picked them up and distributed them across the country.

    Some others came into Dover, Southampton and Avonmouth – same situation. Presumably these trucks would count as “exports” from England to Scotland.

    If Scotland was in the EU and England out, they would, I would assume, come into Leith or Rosyth, to be moved on round Scotland or into England, thus creating more Scottish jobs.

    Re EFTA/EEA membership. I have always understood that Norwegian, Icelandic and Swiss objections to UK membership of these bodies was because the UK economy was too-large, so much bigger than any other member’s economy and would have a swamping effect.

    The probable economy of an Independent Scotland is a much-better fit and they would be more prepared to welcome us into their club, should Brexit force us out of the EU.

  120. Rock says:

    “Other than the mild distraction of the council elections in May – which are likely to be a bit of a damp squib due to the deadening effect of STV and the propensity of Labour and the Tories to do deals to keep the SNP out of power”

    The “independence supporting” The National will also do its best to keep the SNP out of power, by heavily promoting the Greens and RISE.

  121. Dr Jim says:

    Pete Wishart asked Theresa May the direct question today and she replied by once again threatening Scotland with scenarios of various punishments Scotland would suffer as a result of disagreeing with English rule, oh sorry, UK rule

    If the doubters aren’t wised up by now as to the UK position on Scotland they never will be, so what does that make them
    so NO i’m not in the “Hug a no voter” camp I’m more in the “Bunch of Gutless cowards” camp

    What kind of people stands for being threatened

  122. Ruby says:

    liz says:
    20 December, 2016 at 4:06 pm
    For me the simplest way to debunk, we sell more to rUK than EU, is to compare populations.

    It’s not logical to say you can sell more to 60 million folk than 509 million.

    Ruby replies

    Here’s a list of the Top 10 Whisky consuming countries

    Spain, Germany & France are included.

    Hard to believe that the RUK consume more whisky than Europe!

  123. Dr Jim says:


    Bet you’re fun at parties Rock #joy!

  124. Rock says:


    You know there won’t, we know there won’t, everyone and their dog knows there won’t.”

    That is why I have been saying that not only is it a complete waste of time, it is dishonest of Nicola to pretend that there could be a seperate Scottish deal.

    Nicola should have talked straight immediately after the Brexit result and made it crystal clear that it is either an independent Scotland in the EU or the Scottish colony of England outside the EU.

    The Scottish people love straight talk.

  125. Les Wilson says:

    uno mas says:

    Sorry I did not comment on these subjects, crossed wires I think.

  126. Ruby says:

    liz says:
    20 December, 2016 at 4:06 pm
    For me the simplest way to debunk, we sell more to rUK than EU, is to compare populations.

    It’s not logical to say you can sell more to 60 million folk than 509 million.

    Ruby replies

    List of top 10 whisky consuming countries includes Spain, France & Germany

    It’s hard to believe that the RUK consume more whisky than the whole of Europe.

  127. Ruby says:

    Every week, truckloads of seafood caught off the Scottish coast find their way to European restaurants, particularly in Spain.

    In the 12 months to July 2011 the UK exported nearly 17,500 tonnes of seafood to Spain, with the bulk coming from Scotland. It was worth £74,482,246. Herald

    It’s hard to believe the RUK are consuming more seafood than the whole of Europe!

  128. velofello says:

    “Imports and exports between Scotland and England, excluding oil and gas”. Why exclude oil and gas? What export trade has Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, if oil and gas are excluded?
    You are playing Westminster’s game of oil and gas as being ex – regio, meaning not from Scotland.

    Scotland is an exporting country oil and gas, power, food and beverages, technology.The Westminster strategy is to beef up UK charges to Scotland – Ian Lang, now sitting in the Hell house of Lords for decades – I thought he was dead – came up with that ruse for Thatcher. He and others of the Scots gentry are protecting their wealth, not their countrymen and women.

    And let’s move on to a major reason for me, to campaign for independence, we gain foreign policy and defence policy. Forgotten the wee toddler lying drowned on the beach? The lies over Afghanistan,Iraq, Libya, and now Syria? John Reid of Celtic FC on Afghanistan ” not a bullet will be fired”.

    Paying any attention to what is going on in the USA regards the Clintons?And if you haven’t been informed, Trump telephoned Nicola Sturgeon following the USA presidential election. Now why would he do that, Scotland a wee tiny country? Could it be we have a friend?”Oh but he said rude things”. I repeat, check out the Clintons.

  129. defo says:

    Massie jr on r4 pm now. Sounds like he’s been at the crystal meth again.
    He can’t get his cringe out quick enough.

  130. defo says:

    Aw. The famous ‘line is down’ again.
    Either that, or Missies head just exploded.
    You might think they could get telecoms sorted 🙁

  131. heedtracker says:

    BBC r4 PM news just there, cut off Alex Massie and Lesley Riddoch debating today’s publication, in Edinburgh, just like that, “oh dear” says nice BBC lady in London, we appear to have tech difficulties. It would funny if it wasnt so corrupt or £3.5bn a year. the Ligger probably pulled the plug. Or some BBC r4 toryboy producer couldnt take it any more, Scots debating that is.

    Alex Massie paints a very nasty perfidious Scots and sneaky Sturgeon picture though. Ooh he’s a yoon rotter.

  132. Onwards says:

    The next referendum has to have more powerful arguments than simply a feel good positivity about the word ‘YES’

    The campaign needs to be far more hard hitting.
    It should be about taking back control, taking back real powers, and gaining RESPECT and PRIDE as a nation.

    Do we want to be a DOORMAT region that can be walked all over, or do we want to upgrade to a normal nation state, and hold our heads high in the world. ?

    And the union jack – the flag of the UK – should be portrayed in the ratio of where power actually lies – with a huge English flag, and the saltire making up 8% of the background.

    So much for a valued and equal partner..

  133. CameronB Brodie says:

    stewartb @12.33pm
    Thanks, that’s the sort of ‘insight’ I miss by ignoring the BUM as much as possible. Definitely a statement that can be adapted and adopted as a tool for indy supporters.

    “Yes – a country taking back control of its democratic institutions. But not a nation hauling up the drawbridge or slamming the door. A nation that is now on its mettle. …. A country galvanised by new possibilities and a country that is politically and economically and morally fated to be more outward-looking and more engaged with the world than ever before.”

    So Boris Johnson (Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs), thinks Britain is one nation, such is the cultural arrogance of English colonialism. What chance is there that my inalienable human rights are respected in an environment where British ideology trumps facts of nature. If ever a man needed re-edumication.

    @Boris Johnson
    You need to let some Critical Theory in to your life, as your values and reasoning appear to be wonky and more than a little Victorian in outlook. You certainly don’t appear equipped with a rational understanding of what being human represents but I suppose you have already indicated you’re really a modern-day (economic) social Darwinist/eugenicist at heart. I suppose that’s why you might feel quite comfortable re-firming your faith in Malthus, from the top Fabian think-tank in the UK (and sister organisation to the New York Council on Foreign Relations). If I were a conspiricy theorist, I might imagine something quite dark and sinister was going on within Britain’s Establishment. Something akin to the slavery of a nation, according to Hegel and the United Nations.

    “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

    “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

  134. heedtracker says:

    defo says:
    20 December, 2016 at 5:41 pm
    Massie jr on r4 pm now. Sounds like he’s been at the crystal meth again.
    He can’t get his cringe out quick enough.

    It was a spectacular display of tory unionism in their Scotland region. You can just hear that awful cringe oozing out endless deals that have impoverished Scotland but made a few tory reprobates very rich, since 1707.

  135. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 4.44
    The whole point Breeks is that it canny ever work anymore.

    Pooling Sovereignty into the one Parliament where every members vote is equal, only makes any sense when the members of that Parliament have land and business intrests both Countries,and that’s All they are concerned with.

    When the interests are the same it’s more convenient to make the decisions in one building rather than two.
    Especially when communicating is restricted to pony express.

    Introduce the concept of democracy and that Parliament also has a responsibility to some form of social care to the population and a system that is only designed to manage the interests of landowners and industrialists, can’t operate.

    How could an equal Union be organised…In that sense at least they are right,a nation of 5 million should not dictate the direction of a nation of 60 million?
    Democratically speaking the larger nation should always carry the vote!
    Why should an MP from Scotland’s vote be worth more than an English MPs vote,all votes in Parliament should be equal should they no?

    It can and has been able to tick along for a time and I won’t go into the details of how the sucessive Government’s pulled it off.
    But in the main it’s been because both Countries seemed to be heading in the same direction.

    The real Elephant in the room is what to do when both population’s want different things and it can’t be hidden anymore.
    The only way around it…Is to try to pretend/fool and claim there is not two Countries,there is only one.

    Now that this approach has not worked all that’s left to do is to acknowledge there can never ever be an equal Union.

    It fly’s in the face of democracy,as which ever Country has their Democratic needs met,it will disadvantage the other Country.
    One of these two Countries must accept that the other Country has an advantage and will always win any dispute or the one person one vote concept that we understand as democracy must be changed.

    When everyone admits this is really the truth of the Union.

    Then we will arrive at the only possible answer,these two Countries can only satisfy the demands of democracy by repealing that stupid feudal Treaty,and return to organising their governments according to their own needs.
    There is no voting system that I know of that can address this issue and as I have said to claim that there is only one country and not two just isn’t going to wash anymore.
    They can British away to their hearts content,they are only highlighting the stupidity of trying to brush us out of history and now more and more people have noticed.

  136. Robert Kerr says:

    @devo and @heedtracker.

    Bad connections my bahookie.

    Now you know why “telecomms” is a reserved matter.

    Do tell Jamie Greene MSP for the “Ruth Davidson Party”

  137. schrodingers cat says:

    Re EFTA/EEA membership
    if scotland was a member, could norway and scotland bloc eu and ruk fishing vessels from scottish and norwegian waters?

  138. Thepnr says:

    “2017 will be a year of going through the motions”

    Like you always say Rev we can’t predict the future, only have a best guess. I disagree with you here in that nothing will be happening in 2017, it all too obviously will in my view.

    So today for instance the SNP spelt out their plans for Scotland to remain in the single market, the First Minister didn’t just spell it out and we may as well call it demanded a place in the single market, or else.

    So what happens after the end of March and assuming May triggers Brexit and has ignored Scotland’s calls. Where does the First Minister go next?

    I’d suggest she has nowhere to go if the UK gov reject the Scottish proposal and she will have to announce another referendum in short order.

    Indyref2 if announced next year will NOT be for two years time it could be as soon as Autumn next year or Spring 2018 at latest.

    Strike when the iron is hot they say. The iron will never have been hotter than right after the Tory Prime Minister Theresa May rejects Scotland’s right to remain in the EU and insists that Brexit means Brexit for ALL the UK. Oh and f*ck Scotland.

    2017 could prove to be Wings Over Scotlands most read year ever.

    I’m not impatient but neither am I a ditherer. You give someone an ultimatum, they reject it, then you carry out what you said you would do.

    Either the UK bows to Scotland’s demands or we have Indyref2. What do you really think is the most likely result of the two choices this Tory government has.

  139. Dan Huil says:

    @Rock 5:34pm

    One thing can be put with certainty: out of all the politicians in this so-called united kingdom Nicola Sturgeon has been the straightest of talkers – easily the most informed and articulate about brexit.

  140. sassenach says:

    It was so good to see Ruthie getting her considerable backside handed to her on a plate by the FM after she had replied to the Brexit statement, this afternoon.
    (Nicola starts about 15-00, Ruthie follows)

    There is so much evidence of the Tankette flip-flopping about her positions on Brexit, it must be like an open goal for Nicola.

    Keep it up, hen!

  141. Ghillie says:

    Again, so very proud of our Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP = )

  142. Rock says:

    Dan Huil,

    “@Rock 5:34pm

    One thing can be put with certainty: out of all the politicians in this so-called united kingdom Nicola Sturgeon has been the straightest of talkers – easily the most informed and articulate about brexit.”

    There is only one truth about Brexit. If it happens, Scotland gets out, no ifs, no buts, no special deals.

    Unfortunately, Nicola has been far from straight about that.

    She should have talked staright after the Brexit result.

    The soft No vote should not have been given any false hopes.

  143. Rock says:

    Dan Huil,

    “Apologies if this has already been posted:

    100% nonsense.

    There cannot be any special deals for colonies of non Brexit states.

  144. Ken500 says:

    How much does Scotland export worldwide To EU and to the rest of the UK. Howmuch in investment/Grants does Scotland get from the EU. How much is the cost of production. How much profit?

    The UK Union costs Scotland £20Billion (Trident, loan repayments, Oil & Gas taxed at 60% to 80% etc.)

    The EU costs £1Billion and it all comes back. EU CAP payments, Grants and shared a Defence costs.

    IR and NI trade. No problem. One in the EU. One not.

    Call another Indy Ref. Leave the self harmers. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. The ignorant, incompetents Unionists at Westminster.

  145. defo says:

    Robert and Heedtracker

    re Massie/Missie/Massa

    With a display like that, he’s technically now what’s known as a ‘total embarrassment’.
    Only the yooniest of yoons could sympathise.
    I believe deep down he knows it’s only a matter of time now.
    When, not if.
    He’s in the denial stage.

  146. Tackety Beets says:

    Jumping in without reading full thread so apologies if this has been covered.

    Following on from Doug & others great posts.

    Scotland’s Trade with EU & rUK ?

    I posted here about this pre 2014.

    The bigger picture is that MANY Global Co’s Yamaha , Sony etc etc now warehouse in EU ie Holland / Belgium. They have general Sales& Admin Office in UK. They do not store spares etc either. These Co’s ship direct from Warehouse in EU to ALL EU destinations direct to shops or traders where the public go to purchase.

    Scotland’s situation is that the Physical & Admin is usually via Engerland,& I believe the reverse applies for Scotland’s Exports.

    I appreciate there are deviations, e.g. Marantz closed Middlesex office a few years ago & moved to Belfast.Goods warehoused in EU tho’

    Over the past 10 years there has been a discrete slide by ALL Global Co’s to this structure. There will be some who do dif but Engerland has lost lots of Warehousing in recent years as Co’s centralise in EU

    Remember a very large portion of goods we buy arrive in Scotland via this route.

    I’m not in Car industry but a very similar structure exists there too.

    As someone posted a few weeks back we really need an import/export hub like Rosyth to by pass rUK

  147. Clootie says:

    50 years ago a tiny band of SNP members fought to save deposits in elections…dreaming of a few MPs never mind a referendum.

    We have an obligation to continue that fight. When you look at our starting point we should remember that we got here by those who took on the unionists without the internet, funds or members.

    …for those who went before and for those to come…keep fighting.

  148. liz says:

    @velofella why exclude oil & gas, cos HMRC don’t include it in Scotland’s exports.

    It’s put into the ‘unknown region’

  149. Dan Huil says:


    Steady, Robespierre. It can be giddy looking down from the Mountain.

  150. Dan Huil says:

    I wonder if Lesley Riddoch was making a subtle point about Massie’s dad when she hinted some Nos were changing their attitude because of brexit?

  151. Hamish100 says:


    Remind me how East Germany became part of the EU again?

  152. Chic McGregor says:

    ““I think a lot of this is irrelevant as, after the latest German attack, and no doubt more to come, the likelihood of the EU surviving is fairly low.”

    Absolute rubbish.

    The ultimate irony is that the EU was under the kind of pressure that may have lead to its demise (huge refugee/migrant numbers combined with increased Islamic terrorist attacks plus a backdrop of economic crisis due to the failed neoliberal experiment) if it were not for Brexit.

    Just about the only thing guaranteed to bring the the rEU back together was the wet dream outcome of Nigel Farage.

    The man deserves an Irony Cross.

  153. heedtracker says:

    defo says:
    20 December, 2016 at 6:34 pm
    Robert and Heedtracker

    re Massie/Missie/Massa

    Aye. And he got a taste of BBC corruption when BBC r4 twerps cut him off, with “tech difficulties.” See how he likes it. Although BBC r4 and their news crews are extremely tory corrupt. They’re probably as corrupt as the Pacific Quay crew. Its all a bit of a democratic nightmare really. And now a yoon tory like Massie experienced it first hand.

  154. Yes, it will be a boring year but for those of us dependent on EU rights it will be also a stressful time. Boring and stressful – sounds a lot like a 2nd job.

    One small point: Scotland in Customs Union and rUK outside would necessitate a customs border of some sort. The EU would demand it in order to uphold Common External Tariffs. EU membership comes with the Customs Union so Scotland in EU would have a customs post at the English border. It would be no different from the Norway/Sweden border of the Swiss/German border. These are very light borders only concerned with the passage of goods. You can still walk freely across the border but your articulated truck is probably going to have to pass through a checkpoint.

    Today’s EEA proposal from the Scottish Government suggests that Scotland follow rUK in or out of the Customs Union to avoid a customs border.

  155. Brian Powell says:


    Though that sounds to me like the City of London would get a special deal but Scotland wouldn’t.

  156. Breeks says:

    @LizG 6:00pm

    Yeah, I get that Liz, but what I meant was any “new” Act of Union would not be, could not be, anything more onerous that say membership of the European Union. You can be a fully paid up member, negotiate complex issues by consensus, but ultimately, your sovereignty stays at home and firmly off the negotiating table. The “new” UK would be a mini EU type consensual Union, as close knit as you like, but with nobody having to forfeit or compromise any of their sovereign rights.

    I’m not advocating that as my preference, I’m Indy to the core, but in that scenario I described, Indy is delivered by default, and Unionism has to articulate the case for creating a Union on the same platform as pro Indy folks have to make the case for Independence. Both arguments have a standing start and indeterminate conclusion.

    My point is, we currently have all our eggs in the democratic basket, but it’s democratic process compromised by propaganda, but also, which is currently “disconnected” from Scottish sovereignty. Sooner or later, that needs to change. Not only does Scotland require to have its sovereignty recognised as legitimate, it also needs to remove Westminster’s claim on it. I’m not entirely sure democracy can deliver that, not all by itself.

    At present, both Unionist Scots and Independence Scots live in a constitutional anomaly – our sovereignty is improperly subjugated. Fact. It is perhaps possible, if not incumbent upon Scots Law to “apolitically” correct that anomaly, impartially, and favouring neither Independence nor Union. The only way that I can see to do that fairly is to temporarily suspend Scotland’s existing constitutional status, remove the dysfunctional anomalies, then rebuild a robust “empty” constitution which is vanilla in its structure, but thoroughly watertight and lawful. Then, once the anomaly has ceased to be, hold a plebiscite to determine which affiliations and associations we keep, and which we abandon. Do we seek a new Union with England? Or do we stay with Europe?. We define our constitution apolitically using the law, then “populate” our constitution with democratic consensus. We rebuild our faulty constitution with a correct constitution which respects our sovereignty as sacred.

    Yes, of course Unionists will gripe and whinge that it’s Independence supporters who have called for the constitutional boil to be lanced, and with some cause because that’ll be true, but thereafter their argument won’t be with Independence supporters, but instead, their argument will be with legal precedent and judicial probity. It won’t be a political argument. Same incidentally goes for us.

  157. yesindyref2 says:

    From EFTA: “The Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy of the EU are not part of the EEA Agreement. Free movement of goods within the framework of the EEA Agreement does not apply to all products.

  158. Artyhetty says:

    Re; Onwards@5.53pm

    Been thinking that for a while, YES was positive and good on the ballot paper, but it gave ‘no’ a voice where they had nothing at all positive to say about the so called union, because non exists.

    Independence for Scotland, someone mentioned a good motto other day on WoS, but my memory is terrible, might have been Heedtracker. 🙂 The yes campaign had it’s day, we would definitely need a new, modern, 21st century, universal, international label.

    Anyway, that is O/T.

    Are our friends south of the border getting any news regards the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister, proposal for brexit I wonder? R4 had tech probs when reporting on this I hear, oh dear, how very, 20th century.

  159. Meg merrilees says:

    Can anyone post a link to the Holyrood/Brexit debate this afternoon. BBC website not showing it now. Want to see and hear Nicola demolish Ruthie… and others!

  160. Dan Huil says:

    Judging by the britnat media’s frothy-mouthed coverage to NS’s statement 2017 might not be such a bore.

  161. Legerwood says:

    Arthetty @ 7.20

    Channel 4 news covering Ms Sturgeon and EU plans just now and BBC news at 6 covered it too.

  162. mealer says:

    Doug Daniel 11.58am,
    I couldn’t agree more,but we really need to get this message into a shorter soundbite sentence.Nailing it is crucial.

  163. yesindyref2 says:

    @Terry Entoure: “Today’s EEA proposal from the Scottish Government suggests that Scotland follow rUK in or out of the Customs Union to avoid a customs border.

    Thanks for that, very good. And a complete answer to the rUK trade.

  164. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for Nov/Dec 2012 now over on O/T.

  165. sassenach says:

    Meg merrilees

    Posted the link you want at 6-14pm this evening.

  166. Meg merrilees says:

    Rock @5.34

    Nicola has made it clear from the 24th June that her preferred position is full Indy for Scotland, remaining in the EU.

    She has to expose the other options to win over some of the 48% who voted to leave. Once she has spelt out the possible solutions, and the fact that there ARE options for Scotland, Westminster’s dismissal of them all outright, will help people to realise that we are insignificant within the UK and that there are really only two serious options. Indy Scotland in the EU which will bring jobs, support and prosperity or stay as a part of the UK and sink. It’s approaching decision time for Unionists – which one will they choose?

    I admire the depth of this document today and the amount of work that has gone into its production. Unfortunately, I think the West monster lot will use it as a template for their own strategy as they seem to have no clue what to focus on.

    On thursday of last week, I met up with a highly-educated, English friend in Glasgow; during our conversation, he said, of Nicola, that “she is nothing but a trouble-maker”.
    I said it upset me to hear him say that as she is a fine, popular politician here in Scotland, representing the view of a lot of Scots and it must be how she is portrayed in the southern newspapers that had given him that impression. He replied that he scarcely reads the papers nowadays and he was just sad that she wanted to break everything up. Why couldn’t she just leave things the way they were as it was better that way!!!

  167. James Christie says:

    David Davis has ruled out the need for passport controls between Northern Ireland and the mainland if there’s no hard border between the North and the Republic. He doesn’t think there’s any more chance of illegal migrants using the Irish route than just overstaying in the mainland UK on a tourist visa, which would be simpler. So why would Scotland having more control over immigration be a problem for the rest of the UK, as is widely assumed in Tory circles?

  168. Meg merrilees says:

    Sassenach 2 7.42

    thanks, but the BBC only showing a 33 second clip on the Holyrood live website now!

  169. Iain More says:

    OT sort of.

    As I predicted last week it didn’t take Moray Councils unholy, corrupt and incompetent Yoon Alliance to start bleating poverty and its latest figure is 12 Mill shortfall. So you are right it is going to be the same old tedious daily regurgitations from the Yoons in the Brit Nat Press and Media. There will be another set of apathetic Council Elections and another disastrous failure to get the anti Yoon vote out and nothing will change.

    Oh and Scots Fishery and Agric interests will be sacrificed on the alter of Mammon in the City of London so that the brothel that is Westmidden can ensure that the spivs and pimps in the square mile can keep their EU Financial passport.

  170. sassenach says:

    Meg merrilees

    I have it on my computer, and am watching it again just now – but unfortunately I cannot see any way to ‘copy’ it (not a very savvy computer buff, I’m afraid).

    But I agree about Bar Stewards!

  171. heedtracker says:

    BetterTogether cheezeball and Dr Scott on topic again. Blair’s been oddly mute today.

    Did anyone else catch my Slovene girlfriend on C4 teatime news. He says SNP bad and Sturgeon also bad and its very bad to stop trading with the 4th biggest traders in the UKOK zone, England. So that’s not Prof T grade tory fraud at all.

    Scott Arthur Retweeted
    Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 1h1 hour ago
    @alexmassie it’s throwing money at a booming sector whose biggest cost (fuel) has fallen through the floor. While cutting education. Bonkers

  172. CameronB Brodie says:

    Yes, Scots appreciate straight talk. Scots culture has also been systematically oppressed for three centuries and a significant proportion of Scotland’s population are now affected by the macro-social, psycho-pathological condition commonly refereed to as the “Cringe”.

    We’d already be independent Rock, if it was a simple matter of logic and reason. Hearts and minds still need to be won over. This will have to be achieved despite the best efforts of the BUM and especially the BBC, of course.

  173. ED says:

    Scotlands trade with an England outside th EU wont’t be worth much, as an isolated England will be broke, and will not be able to afford Scottish imports, wake up Mrs May,

  174. Paula Rose says:

    O/T and no apologies – here is a message from one of our true greats, please click and listen, the one and only Lindsay who defied everything to show us all what YES really means…

  175. Ruby says:

    What trading options are open to a country that most definitely does not want ‘free movement of people’?

  176. Paula Rose says:

    BTW could you all share that everywhere you are on social media and every where else.

  177. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rock.

    Email received from our First Minister at 8.07pm tonight. (My emboldening.)

    A Brexit plan for Scotland
    Dear Brian,

    Today I published the Scottish Government’s plan for Brexit.

    First, we argue that the whole of the UK should remain in the single market, to protect jobs and our economy.

    Second, if that’s not possible, we consider how Scotland could remain part of the single market, even in the UK decides to leave.

    Third, we argue that new powers should come to the Scottish Parliament. Not just those powers that currently lie with the EU that relate to devolved responsibility, but those that would allow us to protect our interests. These include powers to strike international deals, safeguard our economy, and greater powers over immigration.

    Overall, our plan is a serious attempt to find a Brexit compromise and to mitigate serious risks for Scotland being dragged from the EU – something the majority did not vote for.

    We are demonstrating our willingness to look at options which aren’t the SNP’s or my first choice, an independent Scotland.

    The question now is whether the Tory government is willing to show similar flexibility.

    If our interests cannot be protected in this process, then the people of Scotland should again be given the opportunity of considering independence.

    But for now, it’s time for the Prime Minister to prove that the UK is, in reality, the partnership of equals she claims it to be.

    Over to you Mrs May.

  178. Just watching `Scotland`s place in Europe Statement`.

    Nicola slapped Tomkins down so hard he almost went back to being a socialist,

    we are lucky to have one of the great politician`s of our time on Scotland`s side.

  179. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Scot Finlayson.

    Where did you watch that? What’s the link?

  180. Ruby says:

    Here’s a link to Nicola speech.

    Starts at 16.00

    Push slider along until to 16.00

  181. sassenach says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    I watched the discussion at Holyrood live this afternoon and it now seems to be ‘in’ my computer, as I can still keep returning to it – but I cannot see a way to ‘save’ it.

    Presumably I’ll never be able to switch the computer off again!!!

    I agree with Scot about Smirky, Nicola was on fire, took no prisoners today!

  182. Graeme McCormick says:

    Unionist economic arguments employed in the previous Referendum will be employed again with even greater vigour the next time. While it is right to seek a way to secure access to the single market our Independence should not be dependent on it. While the members of the EU may decide to speak with one voice on Scotland’s eligibility to be a member of the EU we can’t depend upon it and nor should we as so many of our folk clearly voted against membership in its current form.

    Consequently we must forge our own agenda by developing a system of public revenue which not just secures but enhances current public spending without raising public debt and crucially promotes growth and leaves more money in folk’s pockets.

    A model of annual ground rent levied on every square meter of our land and seabed will deliver that funding source. Our land is the key to Independence.

  183. Capella says:

    There’s a 15 min video on Youtube – Scotland’s Place in Europe:

    And also the press conference Nicola held earlier. Oddly, starts at 15:58 in:

  184. sassenach says:


    Unfortunately that’s not the ‘Holyrood’ one.

  185. Macart says:

    @Paula Rose

    Duly shared on WGD.

  186. call me dave says:

    I saw this posted just a few minutes ago on youtube.

    Seems to be the correct one that folk are looking for.

    Ruthie’s just done her bit and Nicola Strugeons tearing her a new one so still watching it.

    Scotland’s place in Europe statement + Qs in Holyrood.

    Hope the link is OK. 🙂

  187. @Brian Doonthetoon

    if you follow `call me dave`s ` link to youtube,

    part time pretendy politician Tomkins is on at 50.07 precisely,

    and later Red Tory Neil Findlay gets so humiliated his own party laughed at him,

    think Nicola was on the porridge or spinach this morning.

  188. Andrew Mclean says:

    I was enjoying the fantastic posts, then I came across yourself.
    So the man who wanted a boycott of the National on the grounds that it wasn’t Independence supporting enough for your amazing independence supporting brain,
    Now you want to slag off Nicola Sturgeon because she is dishonest.

    That how it works Rock? It’s called post truth now?

  189. Artyhetty says:

    Re; Paula Rose@8.18pm

    Thank you for the link to Lindsay on youtube. A shining light indeed. Watch it folks, heartening though very sad as well, to say the least.

  190. heedtracker says:

    part time pretendy politician Tomkins is on at 50.07 precisely,

    Prof T’s really worried though. He knows UK’s marching right out of the EU and straight into a constitutional crisis with his Scotland region. Word is, in the senior common room, he wants Ruthie babes out, she’s far too light weight. Ruthie knows this, so she’s been boosting her stock kissing high tory arse down south, over last 6 months. Adam’s going to get you Ruthie.

  191. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Thanks call me dave. That’s the chap I sought – in Holyrood.

  192. heedtracker says:

    Slovakia’s Scotland news. Slovenia says BetterTogether, well one of them does:D

    Slovak media: Škótsko chce zosta? na jednotnom európskom trhu @Aktualitysk #Brexit #Škótsko #Europa

  193. liz says:

    @call me dave – thanks for that link, Nicola was on fire.

    Ruthie was very subdued, didn’t even do her shouty thing.

    haha Murdo, we can teach him about charm, LOL.

    She’s a class above and some

  194. Tackety Beets says:

    Thank you to CM Dave & Scot for the link & advice

    That clip fair cheered me up on a dreach winters nicht!

    To Tomky Da Donkey ….. “You plonker Wodney”

    As must watch @ 50 mins in

  195. defo says:

    Watched the press conference. She really is a star. Measured, relaxed and fully on top of her brief.

    Off to watch the fun at oor wee parly now. It sounds fun.

  196. heedtracker says:

    BBC’s pet monster on the loose. Graun weeps for the world they created.

    Nigel Farage
    Nigel Farage faces threat of legal action over Hope Not Hate accusation
    Former Ukip leader claimed charity backed by Jo Cox’s widower pursues ‘violent means’, prompting group to appeal for donations for legal challenge

    Will the UK be out of the Eurovision song contest, is much more important than Farage style fascism.

  197. Sinky says:

    Former Labour MP / MSP tells it how it is

    Malcolm Chisholm ?@MalcolmChishol1 45m45 minutes ago

    I can’t find anything in ScotGov Brexit Plan to disagree with and hope all parties will get behind it. Even Ruth Davidson in previous mode !

    Over to Kezia, Willie and Ruthie

  198. Sinky says:

    Former Labour MP / MSP Malcolm Chisholm tells it how it is.

    Malcolm Chisholm ?@MalcolmChishol1 45m45 minutes ago

    I can’t find anything in ScotGov Brexit Plan to disagree with and hope all parties will get behind it. Even Ruth Davidson in previous mode !

    Over to Kezia, Willie and Ruthie

  199. Onwards says:

    @Artyhetty – What annoyed me was the NO side named themselves “Better Together” and had the media repeating this slogan all day long. Voters must have heard the phrase “better together” thousands of times in 2014.

    By comparison the YES campaign was just the ‘Yes Scotland’ campaign which is pretty meaningless. It doesn’t say WHY people should vote YES. Even “YES to nationhood” would have been better.

    We definitely need a better motto and imo a better referendum question too.. that doesn’t have the word ‘independence’, but something about governing ourselves as a sovereign nation state

    Say for example the name of the campaign was the same as the best YES billboard last time.
    The “Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands” campaign.
    That’s probably too long, but you get the idea.
    Make the media repeat that message all day long.

  200. Ruby says:

    sassenach says:
    20 December, 2016 at 9:00 pm

    Unfortunately that’s not the ‘Holyrood’ one.

    Ruby replies


    The link I posted was the press conference. I thought some might be interested in that.

  201. heedtracker says:

    Malcolm Rifkind was on Sky news today, cringing like a tory,Adam Boulton kicks of Malcy says NO with, ” Welcome Sir Malcolm, you’re a Scot,” and Malcy goes “Well no ones perfect…” Oh how he laughed.
    It even caught that Murdoch bootboy off guard.

  202. Ruby says:

    Thanks for the link call me dave!

    The great thing about these recordings is you can fast forward and you don’t have to listen to everything.

    You can just fast forward when Ruth Davidson & Kezia Dugdale speaks and you don’t miss anything of interest. The most interesting parts of the video are the answers given by Nicola Sturgeon.

    The most outstanding point for me was the point about workers rights being in the hands of the Tories and not the EU.

    Tories deciding on our human rights is very scary indeed!

  203. G.P. King says:

    Cogent comments! However, I think it’s imprudent to predict a dull year in politics: life has a way of throwing in a few surprises (as we saw in 2016).

    It would only take a large ice-sheet or so falling off Antarctica, or the advent of some sizeable mass from space, or Yellowstone erupting, to really shake things up
    (in fact, could a big enough space wallop in the right place or places trigger those other events too?)

    Stuff like this would surely make Brexit and Trump seem trivia by comparison.

  204. heedtracker says:

    She was very Project Feary today, old Teresa.

    I am not a fcukwit at all, and

    “We’ve also said we will publish more information about our approach before Article 50 is triggered. I will be making a speech early in the new year…
    She added: “It’s important that we understand the wider meaning of the referendum result and respond accordingly. It wasn’t just a vote to leave the EU, but to change the way the country works and the people for whom it works forever.”

    But Scotland and Nic Sturgeon can get tae fcuk. Who do they think are anyway, Nissan, Ireland?

  205. dakk says:

    @ heedtracker

    , ” Welcome Sir Malcolm, you’re a Scot,” and Malcy goes “Well no ones perfect…” Oh how he laughed.
    It even caught that Murdoch bootboy off guard.’

    Aach it’s jist the banter.

    Ahm sure he would’a said the same if fish supper face Boulton had said ‘Welcome Sir Malcolm ,you’re a Jew ‘

  206. Big Jock says:

    I can concur. The last six months have been painfull and nothing has happened since June.

    Another year of this is too painfull to bear. Hopefully we can at least get indi ref 2 on the statute books by next summer.

  207. Cactus says:

    Nice one Nicola, the tracks have been set..

    Sup tae you Scotland.. choose yer track.. one has a dead-end, the other is limitless.

    There will be a second independence referendum..

    Be excited, it’s coming..

    Cheers Chewsday.

  208. One_Scot says:

    Lol, you know the Twatter Yoons are worried when they start dishing out personal attacks. Oh wait, they do that all the time already.

  209. Apart from thinking that 2017 is not going to be tedious and believing that a referendum will be in 2018 I’m on board with much of this.

    On other fronts the great lie continues to unravel.
    From a very unexpected source

  210. Tam Jardine says:

    Nicola’s performance in the chamber today was a joy to behold. As Scot Finlayson and others have indicated she was on fire. Kezia, increasing uncomfortable and forlorn on these occasions made a couple of fairly conciliatory noises and the lioness annihilated her anyway. Did you see the bit where she said she suspected Kezia secretly supported indy and that Kezia knew she suspected this!!!

    Neil Findlay saying something so daft he had the slab front bench buried in their phones!! Auld squinty gub repeating Ruth’s pathetic point and being called out for not paying enough attention!

    Our FM may may be a mere slip of a thing but when she is on her game she is like a rampaging beast of prey.

    Of course TM will have none of the plan as they do not have the political will or intelligence to realise they have an opportunity to delay independence by a decade or more. Nicola Sturgeon has today effectively ruled out independence for the time being if a set of conditions that are none too onerous (for any other normal government) are accepted.

    That they will not be accepted by Westminster or TM is clear and this makes independence inevitable. Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government have in a stroke played a killer move and in doing so has wrong-footed all their enemies in daring them, almost urging them to oppose her. Its this plan or independence… or oblivion out of the EU with the tories in charge.

    The failure of the Westminster government since Brexit to take the initiative rather than this sluggish, vacuous approach has allowed Nicola Sturgeon to press ahead undaunted. How can they possibly be so inept that they vacate the battlefield in this way?

    OT as others have mentioned above the rUK trade worth 4x EU line must be tackled. That the figures are based on shite unreliable data from very limited percentages of respondents to a questionnaire extrapolated for the entire economy seems to be lost.

    Of course reality doesn’t matter in UKOK land- what matters is having the media to tell a lie again and again and again until people believe it.

  211. mike d says:

    JACEF 1.05pm. Exactly,I’ve never come across an english person down here in England or abroad,who described themselves as British.

  212. heedtracker says:

    dakk says:
    20 December, 2016 at 10:59 pm
    @ heedtracker

    It is pretty grotesque to watch, if you can. The old fraud’s cringe is very strong and Boulton doesn’t like it. Who really does like cringers, Scotch, or anywhere.

    Grauns got advice for Teresa’s tories tonight which they’ll also bin

    “The worst thing the UK government and the Tory party could do with the Scottish plans is to trash them. That’s because, in the end, the thing most at stake in this part of the Brexit jungle is not Scottish independence but the better and less centralised governance of the UK.

    If that means that Scotland exerts effective pressure on the May government to avoid a hard Brexit, then fine. If it means the UK asking for a differentiated Brexit outcome that works for Scotland, then so be it.”

    If only we’d voted out and away, from all of our imperial master baiters.

  213. Les Wilson says:

    yeah just belatedly watched Nicola today, she was excellent, we are lucky to have her. Loved her slap down of Ruth the Mooth the Torie in general, that was enjoyable. Overall an excellent performance from someone completely on her game.

    Westminster has no one of her caliber, north or South of the border.

  214. ian m says:

    I am not sure if it was here or if i was down a rabbit hole somewhere else, but I read that rUk will in all likelihood maintain the EU tariffs if they strike a deal with other countries primarily because they have no chance of finding the correct tariff value for goods sold and purchased within any reasonable time frame.Adopting the WTO tariffs will actually complicates things

  215. Ruby says:

    Les Wilson

    ‘The Roaring Lion of Wimbledon has turned into a timourous mouse!’


  216. Cactus says:

    Am feelin’ real good about Scotland’s Future NOW.. to be free 🙂

    See you there.. ***** ***** **x

    ps, the arguments of 2014 will be turned upside down..

    Tres true.

  217. Cactus says:


    And Billy Connolly.. huvnae seen ye in a lang Scots mile..

    Those mosses of osmosis.

  218. Cactus says:

    Love all.

    Not one person excluded.


  219. Cactus says:

    It’s the langest day of the year fellow foreigners.

    Smallaxe once wisely said..

    I am an Earthman, Scotland is my home.

  220. Cactus says:

    Aka shortist.

  221. CameronB Brodie says:

    A nation defined through religious faith based positivist nationalism? Steady on old chap. 😉

    What if Sir Malcolm had said, and you are English(?) now what’s your point? I am British and I choose to ignore this difference of which you highlight, as it points to the moral relativism underpinning British nationalism. That’s simply not cricket.

    Nah, he’s a Tory BritNat, one of Thatcher’s goons, even.

    Meta-ethical moral relativists believe not only that people disagree about moral issues, but that terms such as “good”, “bad”, “right” and “wrong” do not stand subject to universal truth conditions at all; rather, they are relative to the traditions, convictions, or practices of an individual or a group of people.[3]

    The American anthropologist William Sumner was an influential advocate of this view. He argues in his 1906 work Folkways that what people consider right and wrong is shaped entirely – not primarily – by the traditions, customs, and practices of their culture. Moreover, since in his analysis of human understanding there cannot be any higher moral standard than that provided by the local morals of a culture, no trans-cultural judgement about the rightness or wrongness of a culture’s morals could possibly be justified.

  222. Totally agree with Tam Jardine.

    Nicola and Co. are brilliant chess players. The way to win at chess is to force your opponent into making the move YOU want them to make. In this way, you steer them into the final checkmate and deny them the chance to implement a countermove at any time.

    Since the EU referendum, the UK Tories have run around chasing their tails. They have no idea how to fix the mess they are in. Cameron narrowly retained the Union in 2014 (by hollow sentiments and promises) – yet thought it was a great idea to have another referendum and risk losing it all over again if the EU vote went pear-shaped. This is the calibre of the current Tory party.

    The SG on the other hand went into immediate action and went straight to Europe to speak to all the big names that would listen.

    They have produced their killer document and now events have to play out until the final checkmate. The establishment ego will never admit to the pending doom and will hang in there, hoping for a mistake that might save the day.

    Good luck with that.

  223. Fireproofjim says:

    Thanks Callmedave
    Watched Nicola in Holyrood today with total admiration.
    She wiped the floor with Ruthie, made Adam Tomkins look a complete fool, gave a gentle nudge to Kezia, (but left her with some dignity,) completely mastered the debate, and made all the note-reading opposition look like amateurs.
    A true masterclass. We are lucky to have her.
    And Rock calls her dishonest. Eejit!

  224. Cactus says:

    In chess.. en passant 🙂

  225. Hamish100 says:

    the brexiteers can do deals with private car firms then London financiers but not witht the elected government of Scotland. Equal partners? Just do as “yir telt Scotland”
    Davidson, Mundell and numpty prof have spoken. They put England before Scotland and call themselves brits!!.

    Only the SNP put Scotland first. Fact

  226. yesindyref2 says:

    OK fine, so my Christmas stocking is stuffed full, even though like many we knew exactly what was going on.

    But the thing is this, I have absolutely no idea whether Sturgeon’s plan for Indy Ref 2 is EU membership or EFTA membership, just as long as it’s Single Market. I think the EU overtures work equally well for both, as EFTA membership could be a step before considering the full EU, so I don’t think it would hack off the EU-27. And it covers the SNP manifesto for holding a Ref with a “material change” as a condition.

    I have no preference, and I love surprises!

  227. Still Positive. says:

    Ended up watching the whole debate in the SP and Nicola did wipe the floor with them. Considering she had a press conference to deal with earlier and she had enough energy to deal with the eejits in the SP shows what a remarkable woman she is and a credit to us all.

    Theresa May has a formidable opponent in oor Nic.

    Indy ref 2 here we come. As doug said earlier we need to be talking to the ‘soft’ Nos.

  228. Cactus says:

    Yeah, Nicola’s laying it out. Next gear.

    Level up!

  229. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Still Positive
    We do indeed, sooner the better & maximize the council seats too.
    The biggest thing though, is to neutralize the lies on economics & trade. Some credible voices coming out on it & we will be in a way better position than 2014.

  230. Still Positive. says:

    Jock MacDonnell @ 12.59.

    Totally agree.

    I think unis and others will come out in favour of indy when the chips are down. Especially if the UK govt. is going for a hard Brexit.

  231. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 7.11
    So sorry my friend to make a point to you and not be around to answer it.
    I think we may be saying the same thing indirectly.
    I do agree with you about how to resolve the issues that present themselves around the Union.
    There are solutions that could in theory work.But only in Theory!!

    The history/foundation of it will always get in the way.
    To acknowledge and move on from this point, would require a root and branch look at where,who, how and what actually creates wealth on this Island.
    This would undermine all the percived concepts of what “Britain” is.
    Nobody seems to think that the poor or working classes were ever treated badly,when Britain had an Empire.

    “Just as an example… Everyone knows about..Jack The Ripper…Read , watch and/or study anything about this investigation..Not to form an opinion on..Who dun it..But to look at how “they used to live”.
    That was how the population of the greatest Empire,the one the sun never set on, needed to live.

    This is not Bruce, Wallace or inbread Stewart’s but rather a narritive of how the world,the Scot’s lived in got organised.

    Sooo.. I am like you sometimes wondering and commenting on what it would take to make this make sense,and therefore allow us to organise as an island population, with one Government.
    Also like you , I’m for Indy,but don’t mind exploring the what ifs.
    A Union that everyone pulls together with to make work.
    Not only do I think it never existed.
    I don’t think it could ever happen now!
    It is far too late to acknowledge Scotland’s value.
    Westminster picked a narritive a long time ago.
    It is pretty much stuck with it.
    It has gone beyond just National pride , Westminster has invested so much in the general overview of Scottishness,and that it’s not only a bad thing but it’s a threat.
    To try to dial back on it now, would badly undermine their credibility…To the point…”Good Scotland”… Would almost be a conspiracy theory!!
    So yes I can see some solutions to repairing the Union,and would happily explore them should I want to look at preserving the Union … Except…Honesty compelles me to say.
    Since I don’t think there should have been a Union in the first place.
    I am not about to contribute to any theoretical plot to save this one.
    They have picked enough of our brains!!
    To look at it Honesty, would only highlight how Westminster has been robbing everyone blind for centuries…And … Making people believe it was good for them..
    They will have to stop getting in the way or be exposed.

  232. manandboy says:
    Asked whether Parliament would have a say on Brexit, evasive as ever Theresa May tells Conservative MP Andrew Tyrie, chairman of the Liaison committee: “I gave the answer I gave, Mr Chairman.”
    With this, and other similar answers, Mrs May sounded like she was saying, ‘Look, I’m the Prime Minister – do not argue with me.’

  233. yesindyref2 says:

    One factor in this proposal that would make it more difficult for May to refuse, is the UKSC appeal the ruling due in Janaury. If that happened to rule that the Sewel was statutory, the LCM after that would really focus her mind.

  234. Sunniva says:

    I hate to be negative, but I have a horrible feeling about it all.

    I think Sturgeon’s appeal to No Remainers will fall on deaf ears, and if indyref2 is launched, there will be the same result as before. Which will finish us.

    Firstly, because they will cling to the life raft that is Britannia in the dark stormy seas that lie ahead. (Does anybody foresee sunnier climes?) because it is the bigger, stronger economy, and better the devil you know than the devil you don’t.

    Secondly, because they are not that bothered about the EU anyway, but they are bothered about the UK.

    Thirdly, because there is a body of opinion amongst them that believes we won’t really ever be leaving the EU anyway, because we can’t. It’s not actually feasible. The UK and EU are so well integrated and so co-dependent, that it would take decades to unpick it all. So for a long time to come we will continue to be attached. Already there is talk of transitional arrangements that might go on for years. There will be something called a Brexit settlement, but it will be political window dressing and we won’t actually be ‘separated’ except in legal terms – the jurisdiction of the EU court and commission may end, but the economic ties and obligations will remain.

    In that scenario then, the best we can hope for is to claim the repatriated powers over fishing and agriculture as ours.

  235. Liz g says:

    Sunniva @ 3.17
    Yes Hun…We all feel a bit like that every now and again.
    This is a huge step for Scotland,so it’s only natural to be worried.
    But this is our time.

    We have not ever had a better chance…SO….
    Ofcourse we need to take it,and that’s scary.

    We are making history here and you are a part of it.
    Don’t sell your self short ,we won’t ever be finnished,there has always been and always will be Scot’s who will never give up the notion that the Union is a bad idear.

    Also right here right now there are Scot’s (and I’m one of them )who think the Union is already over.
    So hangfire my friend we will get there.

  236. Robert Louis says:

    Sunniva at 317 am,

    Chin up. Their was a time not so long ago (many here can remember it), when the very notion of a Scottish parliament was seen as, at the very best, wishful thinking. The idea of a Scottish Government was seen as outlandish. An independence referendum was seen as something that will never happen, and the very idea of an SNP pro independence Government, with a majority in both the Scottish Parliament, and the Scottish seats at Westminster is something that people would fall over laughing at.

    So, you see, we have travelled a very long way, in just the last twenty years. Nobody ever said achieving Scottish independence, and freeing ourselves from England’s colonial grasp would be easy. It is hard. It will be hard. I’m well up for the fight, and so now are many others. Day by day, hour by hour, the undemocratic union of Scotland with England becomes less relevant.

    It was Isaac Newton, of his groundbreaking ‘Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica’, who said ‘If I can see further, it is because I am standing on the shoulders of giants’ – a tribute to the work done by his many, many esteemed predecessors, without whom his work would not have been possible. It is a quote often used by Alex Salmond in relation to Scottish independence, in that, their are many, many people gone before who dedicated their time to freeing ourselves from London’s shackles, and without their efforts, with little hope of success, we in 2016 would not be where we are now.

    As Lizg says above, we are on the cusp of independence. It will not go away, and London knows it, that is why they are so hysterical about Scotland and the Scot Gov. I now fully expect Scotland will once again become an independent nation. I do not doubt it. Oh, and just remember, Nicola Sturgeon is a right canny woman, and she has campaigned for independence since she was very young. She and others will get us there. Bring it on.

    So, chin up. 🙂

  237. Ken500 says:

    Boulton’s boss is half Scottish. James Murdoch. His mother is Scottish comes from Glasgow,

    Get rid of SKy. There are plenty of alternatives.

    Criminal liar Murdoch.

    How long will May last? A GE and then Independence.

  238. Finlay says:

    “Scotland’s largest hospital has recorded its worst ever accident and emergency waiting times, figures have shown.”

    “…Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, which opened in April 2015…”

    Winter time is always a busier time for hospitals in Scotland, for obvious reasons.

    This is the second winter in the new hospital’s short history.

    In it’s first and only other winter, some services were still in the process of being transferred from other hospitals. Currently, the minor injuries unit from Yorkhill is being moved to QEUH and also this year QEUH has seen an increase in patient admittance.

    “Scotland-wide, hospitals recorded their worst performance for 10 months”

    Evil Cybernat Conspiracy Theory Of The Day: 10 months ago coincides with the last time it was winter.

  239. defo says:

    Robert Louis
    “It was Isaac Newton, of his groundbreaking ‘Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica’, who said ‘If I can see further, it is because I am standing on the shoulders of giants’”

    Parlty, but really he was a rather insular man, to the point of narcissism. What he was doing was having a dig at his long term arch enemy Robert Hooke, another polymath. They loathed each other. Hooke was a small, crooked man.
    He was also, at least, Newtons equal in his genius, and achievements.

    Here endeth yer history lesson for today, but have a swatch at his wiki, and wonder.

    ps I read a couple of Newtons biogs. Genius he was, but a bit of a bawbag also. For which he can be forgiven. His time at the royal mint speaks volumes.

    pps it wasn’t “of giants”, it was “ye giants”. Said whilst gesturing at Hooke, in a Royal Society meeting. Meow 🙂

  240. Maria F says:

    doug says:
    20 December, 2016 at 12:25 pm

    “if Scotland-to-rUK trade won’t suffer much because EU-to-rUK trade is going to be OK, then unfortunately that has to imply that Scotland-to-EU trade wouldn’t suffer much if Scotland stayed part of the UK, really weakening a plank of the argument for leaving”

    I think to say that Scotland-to-EU trade wouldn’t suffer much if Scotland stayed part of the UK you are making the massive assumption your argument of thinking that the UK to EU trade is going to be the same if Scotland remains in the UK or not. I think you will find that there is a huge difference. It is Scotland who is pressing really hard to remain in the single market and in EU, actually. Take Scotland out of the equation and there is nothing much that May and co can use as an excuse to not leave the single market and placate the Brexiteers in her party and the voters down south. Should Scotland be in that situation and still in the UK, you could quite confidently say that its trade with the EU would suffer enormously.

    Also, in my view, if Scotland as an independent country remains in the EU, it will not be as pressing for Scotland to push hard to maintain the trade with the Kingdom of England (sorry, for me if Scotland leaves the UK, you cannot longer talk about a UK) the same. Scotland can trade with other 27 countries. It will be in fact for England to push really hard to keep up its trade with Scotland and the rest of the EU the same.

    There is an awful lot of mentioning of the trade that Scotland does with the Kingdom of England, but not much about what happens the other way round. How much does the Kingdom of England trade with Scotland? I am of the opinion that the one that has the most to lose if Scotland becomes an independent country within the EU while the Kingdom of England is out is in fact the Kingdom of England.

    On the other hand, as an independent nation and without the constraints of a Westminster Government who does not have Scotland’s best interests at heart, Scotland can develop its trade with the EU far more and no doubt, do the trade directly from its own ports rather than having to use the ones from England and therefore counting as English trade rather than Scottish one.

  241. defo says:

    Auntie at it again. Again.
    They ‘forgot’ to mench that rat leaving the sinking ship, cooncil leader Andrew Burns is a Slabber. Loyal to the bitter end.

    “The leader of the City of Edinburgh Council said the proposed government funding deal for the authority is the worst since devolution.
    Andrew Burns said the authority would get £37m less government cash to spend on local services.
    BBC Scotland analysis suggested the total amount of government money going to Edinburgh would fall by £7m.”

    BBC Scotchland do analysis?

    If your really that bored Stu, get stuck into these corrupt scallywags.

  242. defo says:

    Forgot to say.
    Happy mid winter all. We’re headed back to summer. 🙂

  243. Macart says:


    As Robert Louis and Liz have already said, chin up.

    The demographics of the indyref have already changed considerably, much as the media and unionist parties would have you believe otherwise.

    I’m out of date with the exact figure, but there are something like 150K + new Scots out there from different points of origin, who now face a very, very stark choice. Then there are those who voted no, but who believed indy, but not yet for whatever cautionary reason. To top off the list, what about those pensioners? People who were bullied and terrified into fear for their only source of income and who have since discovered that their pensions have been placed in extreme jeopardy by those they chose to believe.

    That silent majority Better Together counted on to deliver their victory first time out may still be a silent majority, but silent for whom at this point?

    The entrenched believer will always remain an entrenched believer and there will be no shifting such a vote. Those whose votes were won with a mixture of intimidation and false assurances however?

    That is a different story.

  244. defo says:

    Morning Nana.
    From your BMA link

    “It is welcome that the Scottish Government’s paper today seeks to protect the right of EU nationals to continue to work in Scotland, but it remains a real source of concern that the Westminster Government still refuses to clarify its intentions towards EU nationals who are already working in our health service.

    “The last thing that the NHS in Scotland needs is for the recruitment and retention problems it already faces to be made significantly worse through any loss of medical staff caused by this ongoing uncertainty.

    “We also welcome the attention paid to the importance of protecting academic research funding. Medical research plays a key role in Scotland’s economy and it is essential that it is not undermined through lost funding opportunities.”

  245. Dr Jim says:

    How do you report a tragic event somberly whilst at the same time rush with uncontrollable glee towards your real money objective of EU Baad

    It seems that’s how the great British “journalist” plies his/her trade now
    The events in Germany have provided the grimier elements of reportage to posit their deepest smeary emotions and imaginations and give them free reign in the press and on our tellys
    From the imminant demise of Chancellor Merkel due to her misplaced kindness towards refugees to the clear and present danger to Edinburghs Hogmanay street party with barely concealed “we told you so” over the fate of the dead at that German Christmas festival

    Kevin Osullivan TV critic and all around boor on SKY tv this morning justified the invention of “facts” by the aforementioned breed of “journalists” by saying “when there’s a news vacuum it must be filled by something”
    This kind of sickening behaviour has increased much since the Brexit vote and plays into the minds of the extremist right wing crazies we see every day on Twitter and Facebook and it’s a clear sign of where England and part of Scotland is heading today

    Those of us with some of our sensibilities still intact rightfully condemn and abhor this mentality but unfortunately bad news sells well and vile news now seems to be turbo charged in our new Brexit era of supercharged enlightenment for Lemmings
    Control our borders they scream, we have been justified they cheer
    What about the dead? and silently you know they’re saying “It’s their own fault” “we won Brexit”

    What can you do, except vomit

  246. Nana says:

    India Overtakes Britain as the World’s Sixth Largest Economy

    China seeks clarity on Britain’s European future

    A lot of foreign media have covered Nicola’s speech favourably. Our media not so much but we expected that. Sickened by the animosity towards Nicola and Scotland from britnats, some of it truly vile.

  247. Robert Louis says:

    If anybody wants to see the ultimate personification of pig-ignorant, then they should have watched the ‘English ‘news’papers review’ on sky news at 0747 this morning.

    Liz Kershaw, came out with the most ill-informed, pig-ignorant, anti Scotland, ‘England knows best’ rubbish I have ever heard. Whilst making it abundantly clear that she has zero knowledge of what the Scottish Government proposals are, she went on one long stupid rant about Nicola Sturgeon.

    Even better, her sidekick (some complete nobody from England)then stated that Scotland does 80% of its trade with England – which as we all know is hogwash. There are two points to make regarding that, firstly nobody actually knows how much trade Scotland does with England, and secondly, if Scotland is in the EU, then its trading terms with England will be EXACTLY THE SAME AS ALL OTHER EU MEMBER STATES. So, unless England plans on doing no trade with the EU at all, then Scotland will be able to continue trading with England. Besides WHY would England want to prevent that???

    If you want to see right wing English idiots reviewing the English newspapers, tune into SKY news. Guaranteed venomous hatred of Scotland.

    No matter, such people help our cause no end.

  248. Robert Louis says:


    I cannot stand anybody in Edinburgh council whinging about lack of funding. They have just committed over 5 million pounds to a cycle route scheme, which nobody apart from a couple of very vocal cycling pressure groups in Edinburgh wants (although they don’t want to fund it themselves, obviously). This is against the wishes of residents on the route and business owners.

    Edinburgh council has money to burn on silly projects like that. So, I assume essential services should be just fine.

    For the council elections in 2017, anybody who opposes that silly scheme will get my vote in Edinburgh. And I do mean ANYBODY.

  249. Robert Louis says:

    defo at 0712,

    Yes, all very clever. The point I was making remains the same, which is what is important.

    We can all read wikipedia.

  250. Ken500 says:

    The Block Grant is down £3Billion. That’s what Labour voted. The Unionists supported ruining the Oil & Gas sector. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs. Trident. No tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. Illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. Blowing the Middle East to bits, causing the worst migrate crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Using that as an excuse to leave the EU causing an economic crisis.

    Hammond does the usual Tory corruption, Borrowing and spending £Billions in London S/E – Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All a total waste of public money. They will be obsolete and redundant before they are finished. While cutting the Scottish economy by £Billions.

    ECC should put up the Tram fares.

  251. Nana says:

    I posted a further 4 links which may or may not appear later. Not sure if there is a gremlin in one of them.

    Foreign press covered ‘Scotland in Europe’ quite favourably, our own media, well…

    I’ve seen the bile directed at Nicola and Scotland, just sickening.

  252. ScottieDog says:

    Encountered my first unionist, pro-Brexit SNP member yesterday. Wow.

  253. terry says:

    BBC bias alert!

    I know, I know – it’s constant however I’ve just been listening to GMS (which I rarely listen to now). I turned on at 8.15 and to my surprise there was an interview with a chap called Robert Cooper – some high heid yin. Anyway he was intimating that what Nicola was suggesting was possible and seemed awfully close to the SNP standpoint. (As I only caught a bit of it I could have missed out other info at the start.) However his positivity was soon diminished when he got cut off.

    I have noticed more of these incidents being mentioned on Wings so I was just wondering if Inform Scotland or some studious Winger was tracking them? It seems the majority of “lost the line” incidents are non-Unionist views? If we have some hard evidence on this it could be a good way of substantiating the bias of the BBC to soft Nos. As until that so-called public service broadcaster is nailed we will struggle to get the truth out there.

  254. Les Wilson says:

    Maria F says

    Maria, these are the trade figures you asked about. Note this is 2013 so likely higher now, and also BBC figures so likely to be lower on the Scottish side than they should be ie we probably buy even more than reported.
    Not difficult to see who would lose the most from hard borders.

    “The most recent Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland.”

  255. heedtracker says:

    Yesterday’s publication has certainly got neo fascist Voice of the North P&J jumping about.

    Sturgeon’s Brexit battleplan branded a “black and white” bid to break-up the UK
    by ANDREW LIDDLE December 21, 2016, 5:54 am

    Usual far right hysterics, Sturgeon bad, and

    Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said the plans amounted to “evidence-free assertions” that would lead to “a trade barrier at Berwick”.

    Labour counterpart Kezia Dugdale urged the SNP leader to rule out a second referendum on independence.

    But the Scottish Greens branded the plans a “huge compromise” that “falls well short” of what the 62% of Scots backed when the supported Remain on June 23.

    So two thumbs down, from that tory crew.

  256. Nana says:


    G A Ponsonby is keeping an eye and an ear on the bbc

  257. heedtracker says:

    The Graun sudden conversion to devo yesterday is worth a WTF, having monstered, lied about, misreported, not reported everything Scottish democracy and devolution, only Graun can pop this out,

    “The worst thing the UK government and the Tory party could do with the Scottish plans is to trash them. That’s because, in the end, the thing most at stake in this part of the Brexit jungle is not Scottish independence but the better and less centralised governance of the UK. If that means that Scotland exerts effective pressure on the May government to avoid a hard Brexit, then fine. If it means the UK asking for a differentiated Brexit outcome that works for Scotland, then so be it.”

    Only in the UK zone. That “then fine” is funny. Severin Carrell is unwell.

  258. Macart says:

    Just read a brief report in the Herald that PM May has rejected the FMs paper.

    For OBV reasons archiving being pants, paywall etc, can’t post the piece. If true however, that’ll be the speediest consideration of a 25k word document in history.

    So much for due consideration, respectful consultation, partnership of equals, family of nations etc, etc, etc…

    Just to be clear though, Scotland’s first minister came up with not one, but three ways of retaining both unions, both referendum results and a means of pleasing all parties across the spectrum. A UK government which sought/seeks special consideration for large corporate interest, the city of London and Ireland has basically said NO to the nation ‘partner’ with the largest, clearest mandate to remain.

    I’m sure the First Minister and the Scottish Government will give Ms May a little longer to perhaps reconsider this hasty statement.

    Say…. about five minutes everyone?

    Oh and for any of our unionist friends, policy wonks etc, having a casual read?

    Well done you.

  259. Breeks says:

    Similar topic…

    Anybody else seeing a picture emerging of Westminster and the Britnat Sewer Press believing their own arbitrary delusions? It just isn’t cricket is it? Those pesky European Johnnies intend to stand by their word and won’t negotiate under the table. Oui. Quelle feckin’ surprise.

    Do we now agree to conclude the phoney war, and that we’ve all been wasting our time these past 6 months? All that is except Nicola Sturgeon, a rare “live” wire in these precious British Isles, who has the wit to realise a moribund ship steering towards the rocks requires decisive captaincy and adequate interval for the corrective course change to register. Theresa May and her cabinet meanwhile put faith in the SS Great Britain’s 19th Century reawakened capacity for flight.

    On a slight tangent, I tend not to agree that Westminster sees Scotland as a lost cause with independence inevitable. Personally, I fear Scotland will be the last straw which a drowning U.K. clutches to the end. To qualify that, an “enlightened” Westminster government might well see the writing on the wall and adopt a much more conciliatory tone towards Scotland’s intent, and focus upon the relationship between Scotland and what remains of the former U.K. beyond Brexit, but I fear with Theresa May, and her faith in idiots like Johnson, Fox and Hammond, added to which you have the ever increasingly bitter Farage, I don’t think we could be any further removed from having an enlightened Westminster government.

    Scotland seems alert, and paying heed to its survival instincts. Westminster meanwhile is a study in denial and delusion, but let’s be careful, it’s also a cunning and ruthless old beast and we shouldn’t presume to know what it’s thinking.

  260. Nana says:

    Centre for constitutional change /Scotland’s brexit proposals

    Found this recently and wonder if it’s of help in working out our exports.

  261. Dr Jim says:

    Call Kaye (Louise White)

    Todays phone in “Are you too frightened to go out into crowded places now, I am”) says Louise “We want your calls, phone now if you’re afraid”

    Says the BBC PR branch of Isis

    Let’s do the terrorists job for them eh!

    Oh and BTW Isn’t Brexit great while we’re at it!


  262. Vestas says:

    Seems the English govt only needed ONE DAY to assess the Scottish Govt’s proposal :

    “What we will be negotiating is a United Kingdom approach and a United Kingdom relationship with the European Union”

    and also :

    “if Scotland were to become independent, then not only would it no longer be a member of the European Union, it would no longer be a member of the single market of the European Union”

    No point in waiting further Nicola…..

  263. Stoker says:

    Liz g wrote: “Yes Hun…”

    Liz, wee tip for you, you might want to change the capital ‘H’ in your figure of speech to lower case because what you’re writing means something completely different.

    I’m sure most of us are aware of your sincerity but someone could take offence at ‘Hun’ and i’m not trying to be pedantic or having a dig at you, just giving you a wee heads up.

  264. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Just read a brief report in the Herald that PM May has rejected the FMs paper… that’ll be the speediest consideration of a 25k word document in history.”

    They have to reject it, Macart. It’s their long-term strategy to resurrect the FM’s proposal during IndyRef#2 if it looks like YES are going to win. The FM’s proposal will basically become VOW2, signed in blood, blared all over the Daily Redcoat’s front page. They simply cannot use it now–too soon. It can only be used during IndyRef#2 so has to APPEAR to be ‘rejected’ now (i.e. placed in cold storage for future use in IndyRef#2).

    And many of us will be fooled again by WM and the DR’s promises. Won’t we?

  265. Fred says:

    Anent council complaints of their pocket-money being cut, they might like to reflect on past profligacy before jumping on Andrew Neil’s bandwagon. Edinburgh’s scandalous tram fiasco, corruption in North Lanarkshire, casino investments in the Western Isles, ditto the Northern Isles, Argyll’s Castle Toward business, to name just the tip of the iceberg. Reflect also on a Glasgow which had direct rule imposed from London Labour HQ in the sixties after three cooncilors were jailed for corruption. The “Branch” was rotten then & rotten now as tanned city representatives return from a spree on the Riviera at taxpayers expense.

  266. Capella says:

    Herald front page is on Kiosko “SNP anger as Mayy rejects Sturgeon plea over Brexit”

  267. Robert Kerr says:

    An interesting piece by the Times’ Gideon Rachman printed in the Irish Times re the third option on Brexit. Not Hard, not soft but a car-crash.


  268. Macart says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    They could try I s’pose, but they’d find it a hard sell. The proposals as they stand are for a separate deal for Scotland in order to retain EFTA/EEA access and repatriation of a raft of powers in order to achieve this end.

    Barn door closed whilst the horse is sunning itself in Marbella comes to mind on offering those powers in a post brexit scenario. Of course the SG could top it with the proposition of full fat EU membership at most or indeed the prospect of a fully empowered independent Scotland’s submission to EFTA. (shrugs)

    Either way, May will have a tough sell after knocking the proposals back at first calling.

    Its a pickle for her. 🙂

  269. DerekM says:

    Well should we all be thanking Theresa Mayday?

    The way i read it we tried we made the proposals it was rejected so that means indyref2.

    She is no the brightest is she lol

  270. Marcia says:

    The BBC in London don’t deem the story very newsworthy, it seems they are not too interested in the FM’s plans as it would harm the Tory Government. It didn’t get a mention on Radio 4 this morning. Don’t rock the Brexit boat.

    Start saving for the next referendum. I started a big jar collection putting in anything less than 20 pence from my change into that. Now if we all did that…..

  271. galamcennalath says:

    May rejecting SG proposals out of hand

    I see newspaper reports, but I can’t find it from a source I actually trust!

    It seems gross stupidity if the last chance to save their Union has been callously tossed aside. But then, stupid is as stupid does.

  272. David Crines says:

    If Scotland becomes an independent state within the EU and rUK follows through with Brexit then cross border trade will be at risk according to the unionists. I say they haven’t thought that one through!

    Both sides, UK and EU, say a trade deal will be the number 1 priority and so something will be hammered out over the 2 year negotiating period. Most fair commentators feel that the deal overall will favour the EU.

    This represents a massive opportunity for Scotland. To be the only EU nation state with a land border to mainland UK with trading arrangements which favour the EU will mean that many service, financial and manufacturing firms will set up here specifically to do business with England and Wales. The Republic of Ireland too could see a boost but on a smaller scale as the population of Northern Ireland is relatively small.

    I don’t think next year is going to be boring. it will be a chance for Scottish Nationalists to be internationalists and watch a fascinating year in Europe with elections in France and Germany. if Marine le Pen wins in France, and I so hope she is trounced, then the whole EU project is in doubt. if Brexit negoatiations go badly for Europe, and I don’t think they will but you never know, then the euro may collapse and one of the central planks of the whole EU edifice will have gone and the whole building will be very shoogly indeed. Brexiteer heaven but the doldrums for supporters of Scottish independence. Fingers crossed that this gloomy prognosis doesn’t come to pass.

    All this matters so much to Scotland and shows that Nicola Sturgeon is correct to hold her fire for the time being on Indyref2. Cold, calculating opportunism is needed and I believe she is up for it.

  273. Robert Kerr says:


    News Blackout on SNP. I didn’t find anything on Independent or Guardian web versions.

    Do not give the SNP any publicity or credence!

    What a shower of Yoons!

  274. heedtracker says:

    Jingle bells Duncan smells, exceptionalism, in his Scotland region.

    Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 39m39 minutes ago
    Exceptionalism is the common denominator. Yes indeed, @rafaelbehr.

    But also in Graun’s Xmas mishmash of UK zone rules the waves..

    EU referendum and Brexit
    Brexit deal risks some sectors of economy being left behind, warns CBI
    Business lobby group has urged the government to make sure talks meet the needs of all parts of UK plc

  275. Daisy Walker says:

    Just watched the link for FMQs, superb.

    From now on its Ruthie Moosie 🙂

  276. Marcia says:

    Robert Kerr

    It seems that the press in Europe and further away have taken an interest but not in London.

    You might want to take part in this Courier poll. Brexit in the lead so far.

  277. Robert Peffers says:

    @Pete says: 20 December, 2016 at 11:53 am:

    ” … Much prefer the policy of The SNP outers of going for an independent nation state and bin Juncker, Verhofstadt and all the other inward looking protectionist Eurocrats.”

    We all know about the Little Englanders isolationism but seems we now have a very rare example here of that protected species, “The Wee Jocklander”.

  278. heedtracker says:

    Nothing much at all on yesterday’s publication from this Xmas turkey at all. Its an odd silence considering he Project Feared everyone 2014, with us losing our European citizenship. Its a photo of Edinburgh city council.

    Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 14h14 hours ago
    Blair McDougall Retweeted Derek Mackay MSP
    You’d like to think when the camera was away the shit-eating-grins were replaced with angry scowls at the cuts he’s forced on them. Doubt it

  279. galamcennalath says:

    There is too much emphasis on trade and economy, important though these undoubtedly are. There are always other issues, and sometimes these are more important, particularly to individuals.

    – in 2014 often YESs were motivated by a quest for a fairer, more democratic, and just Scotland

    – in 2014 many NOs were motivated primarily by fear of loss of their ‘British’ identity

    – in 2016 some Remains were motivated by the protective buffer they believed the EU offers against right wing zeal

    – in 2016 many Leaves were motivated by fear of erosion of their English culture by immigration

    Etc, etc.

    All of these issues, and more, are driving the current constitutional crisis.

  280. galamcennalath says:


    Courier Poll on Brexit

    None of the above – we should leave 52.63% (621 votes)

    Scottish independence 34.66% (409 votes)

    A special deal for Scotland to preserve single market access 11.53% (136 votes)

    Other: 1.18% (14 votes)

    Total Votes: 1,180

    Tell you more about Courier readers than anything! 🙂

  281. heedtracker says:

    Awe. Look who it is. Its nice to see another UKOK side kick of Blair’s, who also sold out his country for BetterTogether gold, keeping in shape. Maybe Blair thinks RTing this burns some calories, the big turkey.

    Blair McDougall Retweeted
    Rob Shorthouse ?@bobtwopointoh 15h15 hours ago
    I’m running #TheMerryMarathon on Christmas day 2016 to support @MNDScotland – find out more at, some fat guys hang out.

  282. Derick fae Yell says:

    Just an observation. I have a couple of Shetland guys I spar with occasionally. Guys with fishing connections. Who have been very SNPBad for years. Voted Leave in 2016. And who were substantially positive about Scotland’s Place in Europe. Particularly Chapter 3 with the focus on EEA/EFTA.

    Run Indyref2 on a prospectus to seek EEA membership, taking effect on day1 and we’d absolutely walk it. 70%+

  283. David says:

    Trucks from Netherlands driving through England to deliver flowers to florists in Scotland – is that considered to be English ‘exports’ to Scotland?

  284. DerekM says:

    Ah that rare species the wee jocklander your best chance to spot one is at 2-3 am on a Fri-Sat if you listen carefully you can hear the tortured tune of billy boys echo in the night,if you are careful you can see them in full mating ritual traffic cone on the head and lying in a puddle of sick wanting to fight the world sporadically bursting into the first line of the sash as that is all they know.

    A truly spectacular natural event sadly becoming less seen in the natural world as civilization has pushed it into near extinction,i fear like the Neanderthals and Panda`s the inability to procreate will be their major problem in sustaining a population growth and failure to adapt to changing climates along side this must surly mean they must be put on the WWF endangered species list.

  285. heedtracker says:

    BBC Northern Ireland trying to out creep Pacific Quay, for Xmas.

  286. Pete says:

    Re. Robert Peffers
    Actually, quite like the term Jocklander.
    I thought that was what we were after INDEPENDENCE.
    It’s not rocket science.
    When I speak to my American friends who ask what Brexit is all about, I ask them if they would like to be governed from Ottawa or Mexico City. They suddenly ‘get the message’.
    There are plenty of small independent countries.
    Why should we not be?

  287. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Vestas and others .

    All the Unionist parties in Holyrood had advance copies of Nicola’s speech , the same would apply with Teresa May so it was more than one day they had to make they’re decision.

  288. Brian Powell says:

    The choice is Independence or Tories, so I’m very perplexed about what the large majority (around 75% of Scots are left or centre left) think is going to happen with Brexit if they just sit still.

  289. geeo says:

    The BBC continue to remove the word ‘Scotland’ from their content…

    BBC weather just before 11.30 am today…

    “Gale force winds may sweep down through ENGLAND while there will be severe winds and rain across NORTHERN BRITAIN when Storm Barbara hits in the next day or two…”


  290. HandandShrimp says:

    I am not sure May has dismissed the SG proposals out of hand…don’t think she is that daft…but it is clear that they don’t want to consider a two stream approach. Let’s face it, if Scotland retains access to the single market then the financial markets will increase their Edinburgh office size and Nissan etc. will ship from Grangemouth.

    Good for Scotland but perhaps less good for votes in the Tory shires.

  291. Glamaig says:

    BBC R4 ‘The World Tonight’ last night – 45 minutes of ‘in-depth reporting and analysis’ didnt think Scotgov’s paper worth a mention at all, although did give 10 minutes to someone dribbling on about how the baby boomers were selfish and taking everything from the young generation. Even he didn’t mention Brexit, though.

    Scotland’s Place in Europe is impressive and well worth a read, great to see options clearly set out. Scotgov is so impressive compared to the Westminster shambles. Incredible that UK Gov, with all their resources, has produced fcuk all on the subject. When they finally do, I’ll be running a plagiarism checker over it.

    Available for download here.

  292. Liz g says:

    Stoker @ 9.45
    Oops… I see what you are saying.
    Well to be honest I was puzzled at first and asked one of the kids.
    It never even entered my head that expression could have a different meaning,as it’s something I say all the time when speaking to people,and it’s clearly not an insult then.
    Didn’t think how it would read though.

    Thanks for saying something …LOL about it..As I hope is everyone else.

  293. caledonia says:

    So in a family of nations 3 out of the 4 want one thing and England want the other

    but the 3 are told to shut up and eat your cereal and they wonder why we want out

    Also this wont trade with Scotland rubbish needs debunked right now maybe get it trending on twitter and facebook and at every opportunity in interviews it should be stated that the uk will either deal with all of eu including scotland or none of eu including scotland

  294. The Isolator says:

    @Derrick fae Yell

    I certainly hope so re the 70+.

    Make no mistake the “outing” of leavers like Alex Neil was no accident.The strategy is quite clear and the Unionistas are struggling big time.It may even have wrong footed the hard line political elite.

    In the football vernacular they are shiting it.

  295. DerekM says:

    @ geeo

    Yea i just caught that as well.

    So here is the weather Scotland its going to be dark,wet,cold and windy much like usual and we will have to put up with the English press moaning about getting a wee storm probably blame the SNP for it and Eck`s devious wind weapon.

  296. Vestas says:

    @ HandandShrimp 11:59am :

    “Good for Scotland but perhaps less good for votes in the Tory shires.”

    The tory shires outside the home counties are very nearly in open revolt with the cuts imposed on them by Westminster.

    Anyone with half a brain can see that London gets the vast majority of funding and the rest of us get told to fuck off & die (literally in many cases).

    Important to note that its not just Scotland that gets screwed by Westminster, most of England outside the SE gets the same (or worse) shafting.

  297. gus1940 says:

    Sillars has been uncharacteristically quiet of late in spite of all the Brexit talk in the media.

    Perhaps he is leaving things to his old comrade in arms Alex Neill to do his throwing of spanners into the works.

  298. Phronesis says:

    Severe challenges to the future of the NHS- both in SNHS and ENHS. Dealing with complex multimorbidity, an aging demographic, increasing demand. Whilst the dilemmas are the same north and south of the border Scotland and England’s NHS now bear no resemblance to each other- apart from the efforts of the extremely hard-working staff across acute and community.

    Selling off bits of community services in England to for profit corporate providers will not address these challenges that are shaped by health inequalities and the persistence of the Inverse Care Law.The cherry picking of services that only function to avoid complexity and multimorbidity leaves ENHS to become the sink bowl. Acute services bear the brunt of failed discharges, shrinking community provision and incoherent service design. There is no credible indication that Brexit will provide the much needed financial uplift as promised.

    ‘The analysis shows that admissions to hospital have risen by 3.6% every year since 2003-4. But real-terms increases in NHS funding have shrunk to an average of just 1.2% a year since 2010-11. This compares with average increases of 4.8% a year between 2003-4 and 2010-11.

    Detailed analysis of hospital activity data over the past 13 years shows that emergency admissions from major A&E departments have increased by an average of 4.3% a year since 2003-4.

    Attendances at outpatient clinics have also risen by an average of 3.8% a year since 2007-8, and admissions for planned treatment have increased by an average of 4.3% a year since 2003-4.
    Rising hospital admissions could jeopardise the plans set out in the NHS five year forward view, because this assumed that growth in hospital activity would be reduced to 1.3% a year, says the analysis…

    The analysis highlights several reasons behind the increase in demand for hospital services including population growth, the rising number of older people, and an increase in the number of people living with one or more long-term conditions’

    OnMedica ‘Rise in hospital activity outstripping NHS funding’

    In other developments The HoL Science and Technology Committee seem dissatisfied with the Brexit (non) plan and offer WM sage advice,

    ‘The UK should offer to host, in partnership with governments and funding bodies from other countries, one or more new, large-scale international research facilities. This would be a bold move to signal the UK’s global standing in science, the report suggests.
    The report maintains that the government should distinguish in the immigration statistics and the net migration target between students—holding Tier 4 visas—and other immigrants; and should treat student numbers separately for policy purposes.

    Uncertainty over the future relationship between EU and UK science is having a corrosive effect on the UK research base, insists the report. But the government has the power to mitigate many negative effects of Brexit and use it as a catalyst to address long-standing underperformance in economic productivity, it suggests…

    But the government must ensure that it has appropriate scientific advice during the Brexit negotiations. The voice of the scientific community should be heard alongside the voice of business and in making future alliances, it says’

    SG produced its comprehensive, well referenced, factual plan to navigate its way through the pending Brexit negotiations that upholds the democratic mandate to keep Scotland in the EU.

    WM should have pondered many of these issues before the EU ref and engaged with the electorate in debate over its EU status. But if the intent was to allow odious propaganda to shape the belief system –mostly to do with immigration fears- and bombard the public on a daily basis with offensive screeching headlines then there can be no salvation for WM as a lost cause.

  299. galamcennalath says:

    The media, particularly broadcast, seems very quiet on the SG document. After all, this is the ONLY Brexit plan to have been published. And everyone has been asking for a plan. Although the Unionists want any plan except this plan even when the content should be recognised as a compromise solution probably acceptable to most Scots.

    It’s all becoming a bit like the Fawlty Towers episode with ‘don’t mention the war’ … don’t mention Scotland, don’t mention the Scottish Government, don’t mention the SNP, and most of all don’t mention Nicola Sturgeon!

  300. Ron Maclean says:

    Kevin McKenna (linked by Macart @ 0924) asks “… if a post Brexit UK is to become a pariah nation, one that is gleefully and routinely humiliated on the world stage, then where does that leave Scotland?”

    It leaves Scotland where it is now – a pariah nation, one that is gleefully and routinely humiliated on the UK stage.

  301. schrodingers cat says:

    Run Indyref2 on a prospectus to seek EEA membership, taking effect on day1 and we’d absolutely walk it. 70%+

    not sure of the 70+, although it ight be a winning trategy. but i pointed this out a few days ago that this was going to be the snp’s eu policy during indyref2. It didnt go down well, many pointed out that the eu would not be happy with us for doing this and it would turn off the very pro eu yes and no voters.

    thats why i think stus idea for an euref2 in the 2nd half of the next (and 1st) independent holyrood term. no leave option, on the ballot, just options for greater eu integration for an iscotland.

    question is, would the wingers buy this idea?

  302. Les Wilson says:

    I think that If May has rejected Nocola’s demands out of hand, in effect challenging us to name a date for Indy2, then I think it is because the are confident they can fix the referendum.
    Like they did before.

    We need to be very focused and open eyed on all parts of Indy2, we need spies of our own and we will.
    We will all become spies!

  303. I’m in no hurry for a second independence referendum, I want us to wait until Brexit has a real impact on the economy, people’s jobs, services.

    Because no matter how many times we explain to people how bad Bexit will be bad for them and Scotland, they will only react when it begins to affect them personally.

  304. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sunniva says: 21 December, 2016 at 3:17 am:

    ” … I think Sturgeon’s appeal to No Remainers will fall on deaf ears, and if indyref2 is launched, there will be the same result as before. Which will finish us.”

    I’ve heard this doom-laden mantra since I first took an interest in politics as a boy, (way back in 1946). There was always some SNP Jeremiah, (The biblical prophet of doom), who would say that, whatever was afoot, would see the end of the Scottish independence movement.

    Well, Sunniva, it hasn’t happened as yet.

    Indeed the independence movement has indeed suffered mony a sair dunt but here we are back to the point of winning the long campaign once more.

    There really is no way, except actually assassinating every independence supporter, that might actually stop Scottish independence. However, even that is doomed to failure.

    As a comparison look at the much longer haul the Jewish nation, (as opposed to the Jewish faith), has had to establish a Jewish National state.

    It took just such a Democide attempt, (the Holocaust), to win a Jewish country back.

    BTW: That is not an anti-sematic comment for there is a great difference between the Jews as a nation and the Jews as a faith.

    A great man, *Victor Hugo), said, “No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.”

    There, Sunniva, is my whole point. The idea of Scottish independence was being fought for, and died for, long before the Treaty of Union was ever signed. It survived that set-back.

    Here we are again at the point of regaining Scottish Independence. If indeed the Scottish independence idea’s time has come again, nothing can stop it.

    I believe, this time, the Scottish Independence idea’s time has come again.

  305. Proud Cybernat says:

    “I’m in no hurry for a second independence referendum, I want us to wait until Brexit has a real impact on the economy, people’s jobs, services.”

    Then Scotland will be OUT of the EU along with the rUK. Should we then subsequently opt for Indy (doubtful in those circumstances, imo), to rejoin the EU could then take who knows how long (as the Yoons never tire of telling us).

    I voted in June not to lose my EU citizenship. Not to lose it then then try and get it back again. Better to have Indy while we are still in the EU than out of it.

  306. Proud Cybernat says:


    I voted in June not to lose my EU citizenship. To lose it with BREXIT then try and get it back again simply makes no sense. Better to have Indy while we are still IN the EU than OUT of it.

  307. galamcennalath says:

    @Les Wilson
    @Peter McCulloch

    Yes, May wants IndyRef2 as soon as possible because they know this is their last chance to win.

    We can only win when Brexit is seen to be truly catastrophic, and that seems inevitable! The EU will ensure anyone leaving the club is worse off, the only unknowns are how much worse off, and how quickly.

    I reckon the EU will want it to become apparent fairly quickly in order to influence upcoming elections in various countries. They will want their own voters to see that backing populist right wingers who consider leaving is a bad idea, soon. I think EU announcements/leaks could hit the UK soon after A50. The pound down, firms beginning to move to the EU, jobs being lost.

    May would love to get IR2 over with. We need to wait until firstly Remain-NOs see Indy as the only solution, and secondly Leave-YESs realise the EU is the lesser evil and put Indy first.

  308. K1 says:

    O/T(Not to make light of recent tragedies) How come these ‘terrorists’ always leave their ‘papers’ in the cars/trucks/lorries they’ve just used tae harm people? I’m becoming increasingly baffled by the obvious rule that they apply to all missions: take yer passport/driver’s licence or any ID relevant tae being hunted down and found more easily after the committing of yer crimes!

    *wanders off over to for other in/un credible mysteries that are never solved*

  309. HandandShrimp says:


    It is a mind-set thing. If you are Jihadi martyr you want your place in the hall of heroes. It is generally a one way ticket anyway. This one may have decided he wanted to live after all.

  310. yesindyref2 says:

    What a pain, spent all that time doing my EU blog, now I’ll have to do one on EFTA too (and the EEA).

    The thing is that if Independent Scotland stays in the EU, and the EU does not have a single market / customs agreement with the rUK, then neither does Scotland. So some sort of trade border between us.

    Buf if iScotland joins EFTA, it can have its own trade agreement with the rUK, same as it does with the EU via the EEA. Which means depending on the rUK’s trade and customs agreement with EFTA, we’re laughing our independent rocks off. EFTA has 27 trade agreements with 38 countries:

    Seems to me that it’s likely EFTA is the easy way to go, that gets rid of that claim “4 times as much trade in the UK single market”. It’s possible EFTA is a bit pick ‘n mix as well, but I need to do a lot more reading.

    So, we can have the “best of both worlds”, trade with the EU and trade with the rUK – as part of EFTA.

  311. Macca73 says:

    With companies such as UBS already looking to leave London (which is a huge loss to the UK economy) and others already looking, listening and sounding out options I don’t think that the UK government can drag it’s heals any further on this.

    One thing business keeps telling us that it needs a stable platform with which to do business. If it doesn’t have it then they will go where they can find it.

    We have to make this one count because as it crumbles we can offer a competitive edge! That is where votes can be won also!

  312. Proud Cybernat says:

    Courier Poll:

    None of the above – we should leave 50.93% (767 votes)

    Scottish independence 37.25% (561 votes)

    A special deal for Scotland to preserve single market access 10.82% (163 votes)

    Other: 1% (15 votes)

  313. liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 1.17
    I would also caution that wating till we are taken out of Europe before having Indy Ref 2, would also risk Westminster being the complete arbitrator of the whole process.
    Rather than us being a part of Europe seeking to organise a Government best suited to our needs.
    With recourse to the European Court’s.
    We would be able to go no further than the UK Supreme Court,a Court that ONLY rules on law’s written by Westminster.

    Westminster claims the right to make and unmake any Law.
    It claims complete and absolute Soverenty.
    There is nothing to stop it writing a Law that would somehow prevent a new Referendum…The Supreme Court could only rule according to the new law…

    This would be portrayed as and indeed would be an internal matter for the UK government.
    The International Court’s would not be able to become involved.

    I think (although not up the details) that this was the situation with N.Ireland,the British government claimed it was an internal matter.

    So in my view..It would be very risky indeed to leave Indy Ref 2 till after Brexit.
    I also suspect that this is what was behind the reports that Theresa May wanted Scotland to wait and see what the deal was so we could be fully informed on what we were voting for.
    This I think was a delaying tactics,so that Westminster could have full control of whether we had another vote or not.
    And it’s no Rocket science to work out if Westminster could stop the vote they would stop the vote!

    Once we are out of Europe, Westminster can do whatever it likes,and I think we should always remind people of this.

  314. manandboy says:

    The SNP/SG are not perfect, but I believe Nicola has what it takes to win the ‘game’ for Scotland.

    From now on, I’ll be setting aside my grievances, and giving her my full support. She deserves nothing less – from all Scots men and women.

    This is now the biggest ‘game’ in Scottish history.

    Enough said. Let’s get on with it.

  315. Lenny Hartley says:

    Liz g think Cameron B Brodie will have something to say about your post, in case he doesn’t read it, Westminster nor the Supreme Court in
    London can stop a referendum if that is what the Scots want.

  316. shug says:

    And Theresa says they are going to build a wall, it will be a great Wall, it will be a beautiful wall and the Scots will pay for it

  317. Macart says:

    @Liz g

    Basically everything above the line. 🙂

    An indyref won’t be triggered before:

    a. Supreme court ruling
    b. May/parliament reveal details of Brexit proposal
    c. May confirms absolutely no separate deals for Scotland
    d. A50 is triggered

    After that it has to be triggered if the intent of the Scot gov. is to retain access to single market.

    If the FM waits till after brexit, May gains time and space, not to mention negative/fear based campaign advantages. She’s also not under pressure on multiple fronts and can dedicate her focus on crippling Scotland, our politics, our basic rights and anything else she takes a fancy to.

    I reckon the Rev has the optimum timetable pretty much nailed.

  318. Breastplate says:

    On the subject of an independence referendum, can someone explain to me please why you think we can only have one more?
    I’m of the opinion we can have as many as we want.

  319. defo says:

    Robert Louis

    The citizens of Embra matter not one jot to the Lab controlled EDC. Tourists and students rool. ok.
    The Statutory notice scams says everything, never mind trams !

    My comment on Newton wasn’t meant to offend, I only wanted to point out that things can be perceived differently, years after the fact.
    Yes, he was talking about his contemporaries and predecessors, such as Copernicus and Galileo, but nobody at the time was in any doubt that he was also having a big dig at Hooke.
    I got None of this from wiki 🙂

  320. galamcennalath says:

    yesindyref2 says:

    if Independent Scotland stays in the EU, and the EU does not have a single market / customs agreement with the rUK, then neither does Scotland. So some sort of trade border between us.

    Potentially, but if Northern Ireland doesn’t vote for reunification then there will need to be a very open border between the EU & rUK on the island of Ireland. It must follow that if that is acceptable to the EU then so should an open border between the EU & rUK with iScotland and rUK, and for that matter between Gibraltar and Spain.

    The EU’s priorities will be firstly to discourage anyone else thinking of leaving and secondly protecting their own trade. The security and integrity of the EU will take precedent over trade. However, Ireland and Gibraltar need flexibility, and so should Scotland if we prove we want Indy.

    The other aspect is, too soft a Brexit means IndyRef2 not justified or winnable, while too hard might mean a hard border with would also be difficult to sell.

    The EU have to produce a balanced solution which punishes rUK, but solves the border issues with Ireland, Gibraltar, and iScotland.

    I think we all agree special arrangements won’t happen because that would be WM punishing England while other parts benefit! So NI won’t stay in the EEA while rUK leaves. Thus, I reckon, neither will or need Scotland. Borders between rUK+Gibraltar and the EU will need a solution and that should be open to iScotland as fully part of the EU.

    Punishment for leaving? I keep feeling having the UK wiped off the world map might be seen by the EU as fair punishment! All they need is for Scots to show willing.

  321. Artyhetty says:


    Of course if the PM even minutely indicated that she would consider the ScotGov plan re brexit, that would be accepting that the SNP are a legit and competent party. That is not what WM wants at all. It would also mean scrutiny of the paper published yesterday, by media and politicians, in as far as they could bare to acknowledge it at all.

    To reject it out of hand is to undermine the work of the ScotGov, and to deny that this paper has any importance or legitimacy, in any way shape or form.

    It is what we knew would happen with a no vote, and it is going to get much worse. The tories have a plan, to keep Scotland shackled and to continue siphoning away our resources, abusing our land and attempting to portray Scotland as a poor, pathetic, incapable of anything important, country.

    As has been mentioned, the tories will be reading the paper as we speak, and taking bits of it for their own gain. They are cunning, devious and corrupt. They will do anything at all to keep their gravy train running like clockwork.

    We have friends in high places now, I just hope that goes some way to helping Scotland float, and not sink with rUK when brexit really kicks in.

  322. Derick fae Yell says:

    Scotland independent in the EU 33%. Virtually all of them would accept EFTA/EEA as it preserves everything except a veto and a very minority vote in the EU

    Scotland independent outside the EU. 11% Those are my Shetland fishing connected pals. Which is very good, not least because the risk/distraction of Partition is removed. All of them would vote for it. No longer an unhappy 11% but back on side

    Scotland in the EU and UK. 28%. The Scottish Government just offered them three different ways to achieve that, and May has simply dismissed it out of hand.

    33+11+28 = 72%. Before any campaign. Yes pie in the sky best case.

    So reduce to, say
    30+11+14% = 55% starting point for the campaign. We can surely increase that

  323. Liz g says:

    Lenny Heartley @ 2.11
    Then we will have to agree to disagree Lenny.
    At the moment Westminster can’t stop a referendum,but as soon as they are out from under the EU Court they absolutely can.
    All they have to do is write a law and enforce it.
    They have things like direct rule, troops on the streets and control of the media in their toolbox.
    Also a wee bit of form for implementing these methods.
    Not to mention that there is a section of Scot’s who would help.
    So I think it is a huge mistake for Scotland to leave Europe,and, I have sometimes wondered if this is what really drive’s the First Minister to stay in.
    I also wish that the Scottish leave voter’s would pay more attention to what exactly it would mean to go back to only Westminster answerable to no one still having control of Scotland.
    We would I think get to experience what it was like to only be able to dream of Independence.

  324. yesindyref2 says:

    We can have as many Indyrefs as we like, and perhaps that’s an argument to persuade people to vote YES. Vote YES now and get it done and dusted, otherwise “we’ll be back”.

  325. Proud Cybernat says:

    “All they have to do is write a law and enforce it.”

    Not sure about that, Liz. I’m sure there are UN laws that protect the right of nations to self-determination. The UK is a signatory to those UN international laws. They would be removing a fundamental democratic right from 5.3 million people in Scotland. Even if you voted NO in 2014, you should still have, for all time, the absolute inalienable right to change your mind.

  326. heedtracker says:

    In the UK zone seething with Faragian UKIP roasters, news from Canada, via vile separatists over there, who you want to hear cackling over this toryboy twit.

  327. Onwards says:


    I don’t agree at all with the opinion that another defeat would finish the cause of independence.

    It would put it off the agenda for another 5-7 years, but the question would always come up again.

    What is likely to happen is that we would see a federal proposal as a second vow, and more devolved powers. The EU powers over fishing, agriculture would be devolved, and possibly VAT. There is NO guarantee that will happen at the moment without some pressure.

    Even if a second referendum is lost, we are in a better place to advance to indy in the future, and the argument becomes that Scotland ONLY gets more powers when we have a referendum.

    Another way to look at it is the SNP isn’t guaranteed a majority in 2021 anyway. They can’t keep their popularity forever. So if we don’t take the chance we have, it might not come around again for a while anyway.

  328. Nana says:

    Some info here on rights to self determination

    Someone on a blog recently said we can have as many referendums as we like. Don’t recall where I read that. My friend in Switzerland says they have had a fair few since they moved there.

  329. heraldnomore says:

    MUP appeal to go to Supreme Court. Thanks for that SWA, Scotland suffers yet longer.

  330. Nana says:

    Came across this article

    On the last day of the Article 50 hearing before the Supreme Court,

    read the rest here

    I like the last line

  331. Grouse Beater says:

    Nana: “My friend in Switzerland says they have had a fair few since they moved there.”

    Twenty-two since start of the year. Swiss use referenda local or national as good way of gauging public opinion.

    Many thanks for all your hard work over the year seeking out informative links. Have a rest-i-ful festival.

  332. schrodingers cat says:

    Running Indyref2 on a prospectus to seek EFTA/EEA membership,

    while keeping free access to the single market and free movement of people, scotland would technically be outside the eU.

    question? would scotland need permission from all 27 member states to join the EFTA/EEA group? or would we just need a simple “yes” from the 4 existing members (Norway, Iceland etc) of the EFTA/EEA group?

  333. schrodingers cat says:

    The 28 EU Member States, together with the three EFTA States Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway, make up the EEA Contracting Parties (the 31 EEA States). In everyday language the latter three go by the term “EEA EFTA States” in order to clarify that the other EFTA State, Switzerland, is not party to the EEA Agreement. However, in the EEA Agreement and legal texts linked to it (e.g. in Joint Committee Decisions (JCDs)) the term “EFTA States” refers to the three States and is also understood to exclude Switzerland.

  334. Derick fae Yell says:


    Just the four. Rather easier than 27

    “According to Article 56 of the EFTA Convention, “any State may accede to the Convention provided that the EFTA Council decides to approve its accession”

    “The EFTA Council is the highest governing body of EFTA, where the four EFTA States – Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland – meet at ambassadorial or ministerial level.”

    Only a state can formally apply. But there is nothing to prevent a back to back agreement whereby Scotland becomes formally independent at, say, 12 noon. And the EFTA agreement is signed at say, 12:01

    You could always ask Alex Salmond, seeing as he was in Geneva in November discussing these matters.

  335. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat & Yesindyref2
    Yes I understand that the Law as it currently stands can’t prevent a Scottish referendum.
    What I am arguing is that Westminster will write new law’s.
    Presented as stabilising the country or something.
    Remember that the vow was portrayed as something other than what it was!
    As for the UN.. It’s the UK that is the member not Scotland.
    I could write the arguments right here.
    1. There is and has been only one country since 1707,this is especially true on the international stage.(Scotland was extinguished)
    2.The population in the North of the UK are able to play a full part,in the free and fair Democratic process,so are not prevented in any way from exercising their right to self determination.(History of notable Scottish Politicians)
    3 This issue has been dealt with decisively in 2014,yada yada yada….(you know the script)
    4. This is disruptive elements in the North of the Country trying to destabilise the government, probably because they are racist,and they do not represent the majority view.(The MSM have been onto them for years)
    5. It is not the function of the UN to interfere in the internal governance of a peaceful democratic country.
    Where there is no demonstrable human Rights abuses, only the Enforcement of the Law.(Look here’s the pretty law right here all signed by the Magisty and everything)

    Can I also point out that the UK as I understand it would brook no international involvement in Ireland, again claiming it was an internal matter of law and order.
    While the UK wasn’t in Europe during all of “The Trouble’s” it certainly was signed up to the UN the whole time.
    Infact as I saw it Westminster only became interested in a peace process for N.Ireland when it wanted to sign on for Americas war on terror.
    I also believe that any new Law Westminster writes will probably be crafted to pass muster with the UN.

    So aye … I do believe when the European brake is removed from Westminster,they will move ..And right quick to secure Scotland.

  336. schrodingers cat says:

    while the 27 eu members will not “negotiate” with scotland, only the uk, are the eea/efta member so constrained?

  337. schrodingers cat says:

    Derick fae Yell says:
    21 December, 2016 at 3:42 pm


    Just the four. Rather easier than 27

    “According to Article 56 of the EFTA Convention, “any State may accede to the Convention provided that the EFTA Council decides to approve its accession”

    You could always ask Alex Salmond, seeing as he was in Geneva in November discussing these matters.

    um, wasnt he in norway too recently and nicola was also up north too 🙂

  338. Nana says:

    @Grouse Beater

    22 in a year, wow now that’s democracy. She did say they have them at local levels.

    Yet here in Scotland folks can’t be bothered voting in local elections and this needs tackling for May as too many are sneaking in by calling themselves independent.

    I’m hopeful for a restful holiday Grouse and wish the same to you and yours.

  339. Rock says:



    Remind me how East Germany became part of the EU again?”

    If you think there is any similarity between the situations of East Germany and Scotland, you wouldn’t understand anything I explained to you.

  340. Proud Cybernat says:

    “3 This issue has been dealt with decisively in 2014,yada yada yada….(you know the script)”

    Indeed. 2014 gave NO a win. Many people voted NO because they wanted to stay in the UK because that allowed them to remain in the EU. That no longer applies.

    If WM did as you suggest then they would be removing people’s right to change their mind and change their previous decision, thereby depriving them of their own democratic rights.

    Scotland is a COUNTRY (not a county) in a legally binding political Union of (supposedly) two equal members (with England), BOTH of which are registered with the UN under the banner of the UK.

    Besides, if the Scottish MPs in the UK HoC do not support such a proposal (and presently they absolutely would not), then you are effectively saying that England will simply impose its will upon the people of Scotland.

    I rather doubt they would ever be THAT stupid.

  341. Muscleguy says:

    @Doug Daniel
    ” if you woke up on the 6th May this year feeling disappointed that the SNP didn’t get a majority,”

    1. They barely got 50% of the vote, that is not a majority. Are you suggesting people are not democrats?

    2. We warned you that would happen and that Green MSPs could be bought with many fewer votes on the list than SNP ones.

    3. We nevertheless because enough people did listen have a Yes majority at Holyrood. That is what matters.

    4. They could have had a majority govt, all Nicola had to do was pick up the phone to Patrick Harvie and negotiate a deal. But she didn’t do that. Suck it up.

    5. I was quite happy with the result because I’m Yes, not a party member. Many people are like me and pretending black is white as though it was still the election campaign will just irritate them. Give it a fucking rest.

  342. Nana says:

    Reaction: Scotland’s Place in Europe / University of Edinburgh

    Four experts give their opinion

  343. Sinky says:

    Heard Tompkins on Politics Scotland about Iceland saying Scotland can’t get what Nicola wants.

    No mention of all the newspaper reports of support for Scotland’s attempt to remain a progressive nation in Europe.

  344. Rock says:

    Meg merrilees,

    “Rock @5.34

    Nicola has made it clear from the 24th June that her preferred position is full Indy for Scotland, remaining in the EU.

    She has to expose the other options to win over some of the 48% who voted to leave.”

    There are no other options and you don’t convince the soft Nos by giving them false hopes.

    In fact it is completely dishonest to pretend that there could be any other options.

    Talking straight from the start would have been the correct thing to do, in my view.

  345. schrodingers cat says:

    I think the point here is the eea/efta agreement doesnt need to be negotiated, this has already been done and is a system which is already in operation. Its boundaries are already well known, all that is required is an application and a simple yes from the 4 existing members.

    where as, cutting a separate deal for scotland, with the eu, from the wreckage of the uk’s deal, will require negotiations. which by definition will not happen until after a yes vote in indyref2.

    a much as i would lie to separate the eu issue from indyref2 as much as possible, to avoid indyref2 being made a referendum on the eu by bt2, we cannot just avoid speaking about the eu during indyref2. the eea/efta option would go far to remove future uncertainties wrt the eu during indyref2

    it would also appeal to soft brexitters and soft remainers, and the yes/brexiters who now say they they will vote no in indyref2. It might even appeal to the fishermen 🙂

  346. Rock says:

    Meg merrilees,

    “On thursday of last week, I met up with a highly-educated, English friend in Glasgow; during our conversation, he said, of Nicola, that “she is nothing but a trouble-maker”.”

    The vast majority of English settlers will never vote for Scotland becoming independent from England.

    It is a complete waste of time and money trying to convince them.

  347. Rock says:

    Andrew Mclean,

    “Now you want to slag off Nicola Sturgeon because she is dishonest.”

    Rev. Stuart Campbell,


    You know there won’t, we know there won’t, everyone and their dog knows there won’t. The Scottish Government is obliged to put forward proposals for solutions that respect Scotland’s almost-2-to-1 vote to stay in, but however sincerely it does so they’ll be ignored.”

    Yes, it is dishonest to pretend there could be a separate Scottish deal.

  348. Iain More says:


    That is one right sleekit poll in the Yoon Courier. Oh and Jakey got a free plug in Disreporting Jackie today as well.

    I wonder if there are any actual locals/natives part of the Community buyout of Arkaig forest? The last time I was there I never met an actual two legged living native.

  349. Proud Cybernat says:

    Come on folks – get voting for indy and show these BREXTITS we’ve no’ gone away:

  350. yesindyref2 says:

    Scotland can join EFTA with just the approval of the 4 members. But to join the EEA it needs the approval of the 27 EU members, plus the 3 EFTA / EEA members. It’s actually the same as joining the EU, new member states also have to apply to the EEA.

    The administration and management of the EEA is shared between the EU and the EEA EFTA States in a two-pillar structure

  351. yesindyref2 says:

    The media including the BBC being totally disinterested in any kind of factual research, I’ve a feeling they’re totally confused with the UK’s negotations around Brexit.

    I think the way it will work is that the UK will negotiate with the EU for its exit terms, while at around the same time negotiating with the EEA for some form of bi-lateral agreement. The media just calls it all “EU”, which is wrong, and even worse call it “EU-27” which is fine for exit terms, but not for EEA terms.

    But hey, I could be wrong.

  352. yesindyref2 says:

    One more for good luck.

    What the EU should do to safgeguard itself is actually loosen ties with the EEA, let the EEA be more open to new membership. Let the EEA do its stuff, and the EU get on with what it wants to do, politically. And it *should* make it easier to leave it but stay in the EEA. It has Brexit as a golden opportunity to do this thing.

    Ah well.

  353. sandycraig says:

    Iain More 4.19.

    Every poll the Courier does is the same. I always put my vote in and never been on the majority yet.

    I noticed that on the news about Arkaig. Just what the fek does pansy potter have to do with that story. Naffall.

    Tom Hanks once flew over Tentsmuir forest in Fife.Anybody interested, nobody gave a monkeys.

    Did actually camp along Loch Arkaig last year for one night. It’s a wild and wonderful place, but jings it’s some road to get there.

  354. galamcennalath says:

    Rock says:

    … it is dishonest to pretend there could be a separate Scottish deal.

    Of course there COULD be a separate Scottish deal. That is the point. The UK COULD go into EU talks with a special deal as one of their objectives. They’ve promised to listen, they’ve told us we are equal partners, and they’ve said we should be at the heart of their wonderous Union.

    Now, we all believe there WON’T be a separate deal but that is May’s decision and she has to be seen to make it.

    I believe the SG’s solution now on the table is a genuine and workable compromise. The fact that WM Tories won’t entertain it doesn’t make it any less valid or honest.

    It is critical that we enter IndyRef2 having reduced options to Indy versus UK wide one solution probably hard Tory Brexit. All the middle ground DevoWhatevers need to be pre rejected by WM.

    There is nothing invalid about DevoWhatevers, they are a solution to Scotland’s different requirements. Their problem is that WM will deceitfully try to offer them again as an alternative to Indy. A Vow2 with no intentions of honouring it, again.

    So putting forward a middle ground compromise, even if you know it will almost certainly be rejected, is not dishonest. The rejection needs to go on record.

  355. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 4.04
    Actually I don’t think they would be that stupid,what they would be is cunning.

    Out of the many examples of Westminster imposing it’s will on Scotland, despite the vast majority of Scottish MPs voting against it.
    The most easily demonstrated is Trident.
    They get to override the wishes of our MPs because they have written a law that says a vote on Trident being kept in Scotland is for Westminster to decide.
    And in Westminster Scottish MPs are clearly outvoted.

    So therefore it is no great leap to see how they could prevent Independence Referendums for Scotland by simply making a mechanism that requires a vote in Westminster.
    It’s reasonable to argue that Referendums are a current issue that in the interests of stabilising the country,the government should address.

    To prevent a referendum by writing a road map for a referendum if you like.

    We can have all the votes we like….But here are the terms and conditions…Meet them and your good to go.

    Except that the terms and conditions will include Parliament having to vote on it. (You know the Democratic way,and all that)
    It’s also worth noting that because of the law’s in Spain, Catolonia can’t get their right to self determination met,and International Court’s haven’t intervined.

    As for we are a Country,yes we are but we are a Country that very recently voted to let Westminster make our laws.
    We did not make any exceptions to which law’s.

    Although we did so when Westminster was constrained by European law,we need to be aware that’s no longer going to be the case.
    And again I say that if we are still under the Westminster government when the European law’s have no force,there is nothing to stop Westminster legislating to make sure that the criteria for a referendum is never reached.

    And make no mistake if they do it will be the law and we will be as locked in as Catolonia.

    If you we’re in charge at Westminster is that not what you would do?
    I would!

  356. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Well, we’ll know a lot more after the UKSC ruling in January, but even if that came up with a worst possible case for Scotland (still a win in terms of Indy), the ultimate test surprisingly would be in the Scottish Courts, where it hasn’t been tested thoroughly so far.

    I joined the SNP a few days after Indy Ref 1, and totally agree with you, totally.

    I would add that having 6 MSPs and a stronger Green party is a huge, enormous advantage for Indy because while the SNP officially have to follow the compromise paper put in by the Scottish Government, and push for that, the Green party are under no such restraint, they can support it but still go all out for Indy Ref 2, and for Independence itself.

    You only have to look at the hour long clip on youtube yesterday to see Ross Greer put his question, Sturgeon answer it, and Greer nodding in response. It’s a great setup – for Indy – you probably couldn’t design it any better. No more one-party state either.

  357. manandboy says:

    Calling Theresa May :

    “The U.K. got two bits of bad news from the continent on Wednesday morning.

    Bloomberg’s Birgit Jennen reported that Chancellor Angela Merkel is stiffening Germany’s resolve by identifying the car industry as vulnerable to any British effort to strike market-access deals.

    In a closed-door meeting with German lawmakers, Merkel said some industries might press for such accords with the U.K. and that political leaders should oppose them, according to two people who attended. In particular, allowing U.K. banks to do business in the European Union in return for Britain granting market access to European carmakers is a non-starter, Merkel was quoted as saying.

    The comments are the most specific signal yet of German concern that Prime Minister Theresa May’s government might try to sidestep the other 27 EU governments and seek sector-by-sector advantages before Brexit talks have even begun.

    Meantime, the EU’s top court delivered an opinion on Wednesday which may set a precedent for Brexit.

    The court said that ratification by EU institutions isn’t enough to pass a trade deal with Singapore.

    That means May might have to negotiate with 27 other national parliaments and possibly regional lawmakers if she wants a wide-ranging agreement with the EU.”

  358. Paula Rose says:

    Furnished with the Wee BLEU Book I am engaging with people as to their views on Brexit and the EU. The point being to find out what people do and do not know about the EU.

    More than a few have been surprised to find out how mis-informed they are and quite a few leavers would now vote to stay in the EU.

    Indirectly independence comes into the conversation and the benefits of it can then be shown – a useful way to spend one’s time.

  359. Breeks says:

    Liz g says:
    21 December, 2016 at 3:49 pm

    ….As for the UN.. It’s the UK that is the member not Scotland.
    I could write the arguments right here.
    1. There is and has been only one country since 1707,this is especially true on the international stage.(Scotland was extinguished)…

    Actually LizG, it’s not that cut and dried. The United Kingdom is registered with the UN as a constitutional monarchy comprising two countries, Scotland and England, a Principality, Wales, and a Province, NI. It may be just semantics, but the UK is not defined at the UN as one country, but two.

  360. Fireproofjim says:

    Re the Courier poll.
    For a true picture of the state of the various options the Courier poll is a waste of time. You might as well ask Scotsman or P&J readers. Mostly staunch Unionists judging by their letters pages.
    I would like to see the result of a really large scale and independent poll covering the whole country. It doesn’t matter who runs it as long as the questions are simple and the people commissioning it make sure it is unbiased.
    I don’t think there has been a large scale poll since 2014.
    I would guess that 8,000 to 10,000 would be a good snapshot of what an Inde2 result would be like.
    We are currently groping in the dark and nobody seems to know for sure what the percentages are.
    There is no point in plunging into a referendum which you are not sure to win, and that will need more than one opinion poll. Polls are not perfect but what else can we do.
    I would contribute to a Wings crowd funded poll.

  361. laukat says:

    There is another way of reading the First Ministers Brexit proposals that I haven’t seen commented on elsewhere.

    We all know that any proposal from the SNP will be refused because of the Bain doctrine and that May can’t be seen to have capitulated to the Scots.

    The only way of avoiding a hard Brexit is by taking membership of the EEA or EFTA. (The idea that you can negotiate exit terms and negotiate treaties on a deal with the EU in a 2 year timeline is a non-starter)

    So by proposing EEA and EFTA and knowing that May cannot agree to this the FM is effectively forcing rUK to choose a hard Brexit or no Brexit.

  362. yesindyref2 says:

    @Paula Rose
    Yes, it’s very good. I went for a different angle, more detail on the composition of the institutions themselves. If you need more detail – and if you get anyone who doesn’t trust info in a booklet, my blog has links to the appropriate europa pages.

  363. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 4.59
    Yes indyref2 I do agree that it’s a win win for the Independence Campaign,but I do wonder what will happen if the majority decision is against us,but the minority opinion is for us and its the Scottish judge’s opinion,and only the Scottish judge’s opinion?
    That would be a very very interesting outcome..Don’t you think?

  364. yesindyref2 says:

    Ha! None of the above we should leave is now LESS than 50%, with Indy at 39% and rising. Get yer votes in spread the loink

  365. Capella says:

    @ Marcia – Courier Poll
    Leave – 49.14%
    Independence – 39.69%
    Single Market Access 10.11%

    Independence advancing!

  366. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 5.20
    Thanks.. I didn’t know that, that’s something good at least.
    Do you know if it says anymore?
    EG How it’s governed or the Treaty ect?

  367. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    A great article and a lot of very apposite comments BTL as well. All very encouraging.

    My main concern is related to one of the main points that Stu made, which is about likely stasis in the period to come. It actually seems to be deliberate UKGov policy to keep things as stagnant as possible, in the hope that most ordinary folk are slowly lulled by all the non-news into eventual passive acceptance of Brexit, so the deal is in effect done before the real consequences become apparent.

    It is therefore essential that we positively act to prevent a miasma of nothingness settle on everything.

    It feels sometimes that the SG is letting the initiative slip, but that’s probably unfair. The Brexit proposals are helpful, even if they seem to be shouting into the void and (as a poster mentioned upthread) the media seem to be in full “don’t mention Scotland” mode. One proof of their worth is that Wee Willie and Kez have already fallen into the trap that’s been set. British Labour in particular are seen to value their existing northern English WM constituencies far more than their nonexistent Scottish ones, and everyone appears to know that Kez & Co. are deliberately being sacrificed, except apparently the poor woman herself.

    As others have rightfully commented, the SG’s proposals help further expose the Unionists total contempt for the Scottish interest. Anecdotally the self-denigration is even beginning to get up the noses of some previously hardline “no” voters.

    But the SG mustn’t let the situation rest here. It has to manage the difficult task of repeatedly “wronging” the unionists without ever appearing unreasonable itself. So far at any rate it seems to be succeeding.

    I still reckon on indyref2 sometime in 2018.

  368. Fireproofjim says:

    In the event that Westminster refuse to sanction a new independence poll, or try to create new laws preventing such a poll, then Scottish MPs should withdraw from Westminster and help to organise one anyway.
    Westminster would never dare to block that. They would create conditions where Independence was certain.
    What else could they do? Invade? I don’t think so.

  369. Marcia says:


    Scottish Laws for Scottish Westminster MP’s after all we do have English Laws for English MP’s.

  370. Liz g says:

    Thanks for the link.

  371. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    I actually think it was Rennie and Davidson (and other Conservatives) fell into the trap set by the paper.

    Dugdale with her “We supported you 12 times out of 13”, and two or three other Labour MSPs making points about labour laws, did quite well in that 1 hour clip in my opinion, and it’s likely Labour will put themselves behind the paper. LibDems? Who knows, probably not even themselves, which is disappointing. Dugdale did of course mention her 285 year Constitutional Convention and her impossible Act of Union nightmare, but hey, nobody’s perfect.

  372. sandycraig says:


    Me too for a Wings crowdfund poll.

  373. Liz g says:

    Fireproofjim @ 5.38
    I don’t think they would ever make a law preventing a poll.
    Just the opposite in fact.
    They would set out how to go about getting a referendum,if you want one.
    But the devil will be in the details.

    Invade…Well who knows have they ever done anything like that before?
    But seriously they won’t need to invade, just sit back and keep telling us how we can have a referendum any time,it not their fault we can’t get through the process that they so kindly put in place.

  374. Macart says:

    Wee Crimbo message folks.

    Just got back from doing a food drop. I know its hard right now for a lot of us, but if you have anything to spare at this time of year, then please drop what you can into your local food bank or clothing charity.

    It will be much appreciated.

  375. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 5.32
    Took a look at the document you linked to.
    When looking at the top part on page 4
    Timeline….Well it’s no very accurate and Refers to the “single kingdom”,it also looks as if this was submitted by the UK government,and goes on to mention 4 constituent parts.
    Is seems to be drawn up for the purposes of ordinance survey.
    So I am no that sure it would be a reliable definition of the Countries in the Union.
    Robert Peffers would have a fit at the terminology used in it.
    But interesting to see that even in something so simple they canny get their own terminology right.

  376. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links now over on O/T.

    Folks, i don’t celebrate Xmas but out of respect for those who do and who have been following the archive links, i will stop posting the archives once i complete 2012 (Friday?). Then i’ll commence with 2013 on Sunday 8 January. Happy hols one and all. 😉

  377. gus1940 says:

    The reluctance on the part of Misreporting Scotland’s News Deficit to cover The Scottish Government’s Brexit proposals continues.

  378. Liz g says:

    Stoker @ 6.51
    Happy Holidays Hu…..My friend.
    Thanks for the links on off topic it’s good to go and find something to read when everything’s quiet.
    Not celebrate Christmas…You must tell me how you do that.
    I have been trying to jettison that nonsense for years.
    As sumbudy in some movie once said “eveytime I am getting out they drag me back in” or words to that effect.
    Anyhoo all the best to you and your’s over the silly season.

  379. HandandShrimp says:


    I am not sure the Liberals stand for anything these days. Not so long ago I would have said they would have crawled over broken glass to protect the EU. However, these days the only broken glass that Rennie and Co would travel over is that which leads to another SNPBaaad story. I think the Greens will support the paper and Labour will sort of support it while constantly going on about no Indyref2 to the point that they have no time to say anything about the EU.

    The Tories will oppose because most of them want Brexit and anyway it is the SNP that wrote the paper so they sooner stick pins in their eyes.

  380. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 21 December, 2016 at 11:37 am:

    “The BBC continue to remove the word ‘Scotland’ from their content…”

    Not to worry Geeo. The Westminster mafia tried those tactics before. Right up to the 1990s they were trying to eradicate the Scots languages. They banned the wearing of Highland Dress and tartan and even the playing of the pipes.

    None of it worked even when they were hanging Scots like criminals for being and doing anything Scottish.

    They had the private British rail companies, LMS, (London Midland & Scottish), and LNER, (London & North Eastern Railways), build North British Hotels near the main Scottish Rail Terminals. Then after that they privatised the railways. as, “British Rail”. The only guy I can ever remember claiming to be a North Briton was Gordon, (Crash), Brown.

    It didn’t work for them then and it will not work for them now. It is a bit like creating martyrs for a cause. The more they attempt to suppress Scotland the stronger the people of Scotland will resent it.

    In fact the BBC’s attempts to not mention Scots, Scottish or Scotland is really great because it tells us they really are scared and know their time is quickly running out.

  381. heedtracker says:

    The reluctance on the part of Misreporting Scotland’s News Deficit to cover The Scottish Government’s Brexit proposals continues.”

    Cant expect any better from the con artists. Good news story from Angus! But wont be reported by our SNP bad chums in PQ.—HIGHLAND-DELIVERY-CHARGES-FROM–50-TO–2.99/338/

  382. Catching up. A couple of hundred votes will put independence in the lead (in a poll in an anti independence newspaper)

  383. gerry parker says:

    Liz g and stoker.

    With you both on Christmas.

    I treat it like a virus. It’s remarkably like one when you observe it.

    I got immunised a few years back.

    Just had a birthday too, that always makes me grumpy. No cure for getting old yet though.

    Oh well, another day above ground, enjoy it as best you can.

  384. scottieDog says:


    Yeah we are doing a food drop tomorrow. Just found myself getting angry preparing the box, not because I grudge it but because it is so unnecessary.
    Heres to the death of neoliberal economics in 2017..

  385. heedtracker says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Independence out in front. God knows who or what “Other” is. Emigrate maybe. Absolute monarchy. Complete erasing of everything and anything Scots and rename Scotland, DuncanHothersall shire.

    Other: 0.77% (17 votes)

    Total Votes: 2,191

  386. Robert Graham says:

    Yer Courier poll is a load of tosh I voted three times, just for a bit of mischief, so disregard the results.Probably the same as the 2014 referendum with NO voters voting twice or more, you think I am joking , Aye right stranger things have happened eh Ruthie ? .

  387. Breeks says:

    It is what it is LizG, the UN’s definition of what the United Kingdom is.

    I would agree, it seems a low level document, addressing the standardisation of geographical names, but at the same time, it is quite explicit and succinct in its definition, and largely accurate.

  388. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 7.56
    Aye it’s a great find…Just goes to show that on some level there is at least an awareness that Scotland’s a country in a union..that doesn’t come from us,despite the establishments best efforts.
    Confirmation of our actual status turns up in the most unexpected places.
    How they must hate us!!!

  389. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Graham
    That’s disgraceful, ccleaning out the cookies and voting more than once, there’s absolutely no way I’ve voted 8 times.

    7 maybe.

  390. Tam Jardine says:

    Re Dugdale’s constitutional convention. The idea that the act of union could be amended or replaced is absurd. Who would vote to replace it or amend it? Westminster!

    Whatever proposals were put forward would need passed by Westminster- a parliament with less than 10% fighting Scotland’s corner. What kind of deal does she think possible? Being shafted is a near mathematical certainty.

    In the wildest fantasy where every MP from the rest of the UK takes a fair and balanced view the best case scenario is an equitable settlement. It is a mere theoretical scenario though.

    The only way for it to work would be to repeal the act of union and hold a vote in Scotland and the rest of the UK on a new act. You are dreaming if you think such a vote would be passed by Scotland AND England AND Northern Ireland AND Wales.

    It is long grass politics in a time of dynamic change. If she is unable to make a meaningful contribution she should make way for others who can.

    It does no-one any good to try and take the UK into some kind of further constitutional stasis. The situation needs resolved and the only way it can be resolved is through Scottish Independence as soon as is practical.

  391. heedtracker says:

    Herald says

    20 hrs ago / PHIL MILLER

    THE new director of BBC Scotland has conceded there are “deficits” in its news output and wants to see more drama inspired by Scottish literary classics on screen.

    Donalda MacKinnon said BBC Scotland wants to improve the “relevance” of its evening news bulletin, and tackle what she regards as “deficits” in news coverage at present.

    She said it is a “fair assumption” that BBC Scotland’s news output will change in 2017.”

    In other words, BBC Double Speak. What a bunch.

  392. sassenach says:

    Independence now only 26 votes behind Brexit in Courier poll!!!!

  393. Lenny Hartley says:

    Salmond on RT news, saying May not upto the job. Some good footage of the Glasgow Green Rally

  394. sassenach says:

    It looks like our ‘Yoon’ readers have sussed out how to multiple vote on the Courier poll – in the last few minutes their total is rising – notwithstanding my own valiant efforts!!

  395. yesindyref2 says:

    Haha, mine was the vote that took it 1094 to 1093 Independence. Ooops, I may have already voted.


  396. K1 says:

    Right they are manipulating the vote on the courier, we were neck and neck and it suddenly lost a pile to indy and increased sharply to leave, within two click! Haunners!

  397. K1 says:

    Aye but our side ‘lost’ votes sassenach, I watched it happening…and a massive jump to theirs…it’s being manipulated from inside the Courier is what I”m actually suggesting here…dons ‘fuck em’ hat…let’s go…heheh

    I’m voting for everyone I know who ‘can’t vote yesindyref2…..think of the children 😉

  398. Robert Graham says:

    Yesindyref 2 –ha ha thanks for the heads up regarding cookies, yep here goes another five ha ha

  399. K1 says:

    We were within .8% and suddenly they’ve ‘gained’ nearly 50 to 70 votes in less than the time it took to clear and reload! Are we kidding?

  400. Robert Graham says:

    Scottish Independence ahead again ha ha by 101

  401. K1 says:

    Right they are ‘preventing’ the Indy vote going (no longer registering indy votes, which they were doing in the last half hour or so), ‘up’…and the Leave vote is now soaring ahead…these are not ‘leave’ voters, this is someone in the Courier manipulating the vote. I’m tellin’ ye…how pathetic is that? 🙂

  402. Fred says:

    Anent railway hotels, North British hotels appear at former LNER stations as that company was formerly (with others) the North British Railway Company, likewise Caledonian hotels are found at former LMS stations as the Caledonian Railway built them. The North British Locomotive Company had no connection to the North British Railway Company. Both had their works in Springburn (as did the Caley also) with the NB Loco the biggest private loco works in Europe.

  403. defo says:

    Indy 73 ahead now. Somehow 😉

  404. Liz g says:

    Tam Jardine @ 8.10
    My main concern about the new Act of the Union is also who would vote for it.
    And in the first instance it would be us….
    If they have to have a referendum!!Then ..They will include it in the vote.

    As in..
    A No vote is not a vote for no change.
    On the morning after a no vote we will introduce legislation into Parliament…Ect,ect ,ect…
    They will tell us they understand and have listened,they reconised that the vow wasn’t enough.
    The problems will all be sorted whenever the act of the Union is modernized to suit the 21st century.

    I think Kezzia is just the useful idiot who is floating the idear in to the narrative.

    If that’s the road they go down,and they get a no vote then putting a New Act of Union through both houses of parliament won’t be controversial at all.
    It will be delivering what the people of Scotland said they wanted.
    Will the SNP object..Well ofcourse they will, I am sure I don’t need to outline to you Tam how that would go.

  405. K1 says:

    Pure ‘riddy’ I’ve been reading the heading’s…and reversing them…right, time tae march masel’ back tae base camp for reboot of chip, alert reader status stripped, assigned potato peelin duties for a month.

    *looks off into the middle distance to the far off land of DOH!*

  406. Macart says:


    I hear you.

    Its not the doing it. Its that its become necessary at all. I drop stuff in when I have a few quid extra during the year, but most especially during the winter and Christmas I try and have a few quid saved for a few bags.

  407. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @K1 –

    Wee marker…


    Indy in EU – 47.64% 1210 votes
    Leave 43.62 1108

  408. yesindyref2 says:

    Just looked and it’s

    Scottish independence 48.56% (1,265 votes)
    None of the above – we should leave 42.92% (1,118 votes)

  409. K1 says:

    (cough…*ah know ah fucked it*…moving on)


  410. jockmcx says:

    O/T…It’s christmas so,
    If you know where more than half these catchphrases come
    from then maybe we should get one or two of our own!

    1.I don’t beleeeeeeeeeeeeeeve it
    2.Lovely jubbly
    4.Here’s one I made earlier
    5.Suit’s you sir
    6.Here’s another fine mess you’ve gotten me into
    7.Just like that
    8.I have a cunning plan
    9.Is that your final answer?
    10.You plonker
    11.You are the weekend link, goodbye
    12.The truth is out there
    13.Listen I will say zis only wunce
    14Nice to see you, to see you nice
    15.Boom boom
    16Don’t panic
    17.What’s up Doc?
    18.You’re fired
    19.I’ve started so I’ll finish
    21.Come on down, the price is right
    22.It’s good night from me and good night from him
    23.Ooh I could crush a grape
    24Good night John Boy
    25.Is it because I is black?
    26.Don’t just stand there, do something
    27.Ooh you are awful, but I like you
    28.Say what you see
    29.Our survey says
    30.Tonight Matthew, I’m going to be
    31.You dirty old man
    32.Where’s me washboard
    33.And now for something completely different

    Wheres me washboard…heh heh…

  411. louis.b.argyll says:

    Lurked at 21:44 was 1315, missed the old number by 1.

  412. Adam Ant says:

    Someone said he’s not sure any “No + Remain” voters will switch to “Yes” over the EU.

    So just wanted to say that I am such a voter. Was “No” in 2014. Was devastated after the EU referendum, and found this blog in the aftermath. Will switch to “Yes” over EU membership.

    Nice to meet you 🙂

  413. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breastplate says: 21 December, 2016 at 2:20 pm:

    ” … can someone explain to me please why you think we can only have one more?
    I’m of the opinion we can have as many as we want.”

    And you are 100% correct. This is why the subject of the People of Scotland being legally sovereign is a taboo subject. It is, though, a legal fact and is born out by the Treaty of Union itself.

    The plain facts are that the two legal systems are incompatible and this really only becomes apparent to the people of Scotland when someone draws their attention to it. It then, instantly, becomes so crystal clear they wonder why they never noticed it before.

    Let’s just give it another wee airing.

    In 1603’s Britain there was already a glaring hole in the legal systems in the British Isles kingdoms. Only Scotland before 1603 was NOT under the law of Devine Right of Kings. In fact all Christendom except Scotland was under the law of, Devine Right of Kings.

    Under which law a monarch who defeated another monarch in war got to be overlord of that monarch and could legally spare his/her life if the beaten monarch swore fealty to the winning monarch.

    The English Monarchy had been at that game in Britain for centuries. Remember that Britain had been composed of many small kingdoms like Mercia, Northumberland and Cumberland and Devine Right had slowly made bigger and bigger kingdom until all England was a single kingdom.

    In Scotland things went a little differently even before the Declaration of Arbroath. For example the Normans Knights, like Wallace and Bruce, did not use divine right in order to assimilate into the Scottish system. Bruce, for example, had a Norman Knight as father and a noble Gaelic Mother.

    Robert the Bruce was descended from both Anglo-Norman and Gaelic nobilities. His paternal fourth-great grandfather was King David I of Scotland. Bruce’s grandfather, Robert de Brus, was 5th Lord of Annandale and one of the claimants to the Scottish throne during the “Great Cause”.

    As Earl of Carrick, Robert the Bruce supported his family’s claim to the Scottish throne and took part in William Wallace’s revolt against Edward I of England.

    Appointed in 1298 as a Guardian of Scotland alongside his chief rival for the throne, John Comyn, Lord of Badenoch, and William Lamberton, Bishop of St Andrews. Robert the Bruce later resigned in 1300 due to his quarrels with Comyn and the imminent restoration of King John Balliol.

    First, after submitting to Edward I in 1302 and returning to “the king’s peace”, Robert inherited his family’s claim to the Scottish throne upon his father’s death.

    Bruce’s Mother was Marjorie, (Also Margaret), of Carrick She was the daughter and heiress of Niall, Earl of Carrick and Margaret Stewart, and Countess of Carrick in her own right.

    Her first husband was Adam of Kilconquhar, who died during the Eighth Crusade in 1271. Then a handsome young man arrived to tell her of her husband’s death in the Holy Land. This handson guy was none other than Robert de Brus, 6th Lord of Annandale, and he had been a companion-in-arms of Adam of Kilconquhar.

    Marjorie fancied him something rotten and, or so the story goes, held him captive until he agreed to marry her at Turnberry Castle in 1271. Seems like he didn’t object too much. Anyway he thus became Earl of Carrick jure uxoris (in right of his wife), and one of their children was to become King Robert.

    The Normans thus assimilated with the Gaels by intermarriage and not, as in England, by conquest.

    However, in 1603 Scotland’s legal system, which had been changed in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath, and had been accepted as different by the whole of Christendom after the Pope in Rome accepted the Declaration and lifted the excommunication of Bruce.

    So, in 1603, when King James I of Scotland inherited the English crown, he was not legally able, under the English laws of divine right, to just tag the Kingdom of England onto his Scottish Kingdom because Scotland was not under divine right and, under English law, a sovereign, just by being sovereign, could not legally give away the kingdom’s sovereignty.

    That is the reason there could not be a united kingdom in 1603. Simply because under Scottish law James was not sovereign and thus, as the English did not want to be part of Scotland and the people of Scotland were not even asked to abdicate their legal sovereignty, there was no legal Union. Only the King’s personal union.

    Thus there only remained two British Kingdoms as the Kingdom of England had annexed, (not united with), Wales in 1284 with The Statute of Rhudllan. Under which Statute the English Monarchy imposed English Law upon Wales.

    Similarly in Ireland the Papacy had appointed the English monarchy as, Lords of Ireland and the English began, “The Plantations”, of Ireland. That is they implanted English Nobles into Ireland who then implanted English people to take over the Irish people’s lands. Then, in 1542m the English monarchy forced the Parliament of Ireland to pass the Crown of Ireland Act declaring the King of England as King of Ireland and thus also annexed Ireland.

    Which is why Westminster required to force, by illegal means, a Treaty of Union upon Scotland in 1706/7. If there had been a Union of the two Crowns in 1603, why would they then need a treaty of union in 1706/7?

    What’s more if there had been a legal annexation of Scotland in 1707 why would they not have just done, as they did in Wales and Ireland, just imposed English law upon Scotland?

    The reason being that they could not legally do so and that is why there is an Article of Union that states Scottish, (and hence English), Law will remain independent in perpetuity. It is also why there is an article that prevents the Monarch of England being head of any Scottish Church and why Scottish Banks have legal right to print their own banknotes.

    Tellingly it is also the reason that what they try to claim as a, “Treaty of Union”, with what remained the English part of Ireland in 1800/1 cannot be a Treaty of Union but simply a change of title of the United Kingdom.

    Ireland was already a part of the Kingdom of England from 1542 and so there was no Kingdom of Ireland nor Kingdom of Northern Ireland to become part of the United Kingdom as it was already part of the United Kingdom of England and thus already in the union in 1800/1.

    So there’s the truth, Breastplate. The people of Scotland, in 1320 through to the present day are legally sovereign, and being sovereign under English law, they cannot legally give away the Kingdom of Scotland’s sovereignty but can only abdicate it.

    We have never been specifically asked to abdicate our legal sovereignty but, by giving both the Holyrood and Westminster elected by us members a mandate we can, basically legally do anything we collectively decide to do.

    There is the rub – we must collectively, and democratically, give our delegation our legal sovereignty to hold a referendum. That decision, by a referendum, will then be our sovereign delegated wishes for our delegates to withdraw from the Union and thus end the United Kingdom.

    Which then brings up the problem that must be faced by the European Parliament. If the Westminster Parliament, sans the Scottish members, wishes to withdraw from the EU then the EU parliament must legally decide upon something never said in either the EU parliament or Westminster.

    The United Kingdom is, “The Member State”, but it cannot be a, “Member Country”, because, as its name describes it, it is a United KINGDOM. and that kingdom has just ended.

    One part of it wants to remain and there is no legal EU mechanism, law or rules to throw out any EU citizen or member state and that member state will no longer exist but Westminster is arguably actually the Parliament of England. Unless anyone can tell us where that English parliament actually is?

    Only England is funded as the United Kingdom with United Kingdom cash. It legislates under English law, it even devolves its English powers to the three other UK countries and it Imposes EVEL upon the members elected from NI, Scotland and Wales.

    If it talks like an English Parliament, Funds itself as an English Parliament and acts like an English Parliament then, chances are, it is an English Parliament and it even claims it will continue as The Parliament of a United Kingdom when the United Kingdom will have ended.

    Now note this well – The Secretary of State for Scotland has announce on national TV, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”. What’s more he was quoting from a Westminster commissioned paper by Westminster appointed legal experts.

    What more proof do the EU Parliament need?

    How can they then arbitrarily throw out of the E~U over 5 million legal EU citizens? What kind of message would that give to all other EU citizens?

    To my mind only that EU citizenship is not worth the paper it is written upon and thus they would endanger the entire European Union if they did not accept Scotland as the legacy member state when Westminster formally requests to withdraw from the EU and thus drags the EU and sovereign people of Scotland out of the EU against they collective will.

  414. Grouse Beater says:

    Liz at 6.16

    On joining the United Nations all countries had to define themselves accurately, the USSR (then) having a difficult time doing it, but the UK was succinct and to the point. It remains the defining definition of the United Kingdom.

    There has been no attempt to redefine or subtract since the initial submission in 1945.

    If a treaty exists it presupposes TWO nations exist.

  415. What the Courier has done with its poll should be made into a leaflet 2 withthe time details and distributed widely. The Scotsman does the same.It amasses huge votes for whatever issue its supports at 3 and 4 oclock in the morning.

  416. Capella says:

    Independence in the lead now. Congratulations.

    Scottish independence 50.29% (1,374 votes)

    None of the above – we should leave 41.43% (1,132 votes)

    A special deal for Scotland to preserve single market access 7.65% (209 votes)

    Other: 0.62% (17 votes)

  417. heedtracker says:

    BBC Politics, has there ever been a few sand dunes anywhere, let alone Balmedie, that’s had so much BBC Britnat bullshit dumped on it? 4 more years of,

    “With the reckless installation of these monsters, you will single-handedly have done more damage to Scotland than virtually any event in Scottish history.”

    The Ligger’s crew plop this kind of all new and exciting Donalda BBC Scotland crapola, on Facebook all the time. And it attracts the usual very thick abusive morons. There’s an inexhaustible supply of Britnat morons out there.

    To be fair to all new and exciting Donalda, she’s says the big new and exciting changes are coming to us all in Jan. Cannae wait Donalda.

    Balmedie is a few sand dunes dear BBC creep show. It is not fcuking Avatar.

  418. I’ve been thinking about the timing for the next referendum. My major interest would be to see it after a summer and autumn of campaigning and not after winter political deadtime.
    For that reason I would lve it to be held on Thursday 29th November 2018 so that we could announce our independence on St Andrews Day

    BTW The marvelous Martin Compston helped open our Forward YES shop in Dunoon. I’ve got the photies!

  419. yesindyref2 says:

    Well done all ye’s while I’ve been away sorting the Express out, you’ve done this:

    Scottish independence 50.35% (1,381 votes)
    None of the above – we should leave 41.34% (1,134 votes)


    Here’s some stats for the latest Scottish Labour attack on the SNHS leading to demoralisation and unjustified stigma.

    The figures for NHS England from January to October 2016 (latest I found):

    83.0%, 81.6%, 80.8%, 85.0%, 85.4%, 85.8%, 85.4%, 86.4%, 86.0% and 83.7%

    And the stats for NHS Scotland from Jan to Oct 2016:

    91.8%, 92.9%, 93.1%, 95.1%, 94.5%,95.7%, 95.8%, 94.8%, 94.9% and 93.9%

    The figures and comparisons a Scottish Labour press release telling us (well, the honest open and unbaised honestly gov BBC) it’s terrible it’s only 89.8% of A&E patients were seen within four hours in November, will never tell you.

    The best England achieved in the 10 months this year was 86.4% – in August, compared to the 94.8% in Scotland, with loads from England having the odd unfortunate accident here in Scotland on a beautiful scenic mostly safe adventure holiday.

    Don’t worry folks, here in Scotland there’s a 19 in 20 chance you’ll be fixed up and back on your trail bike / windsurfer / goape within 4 hours!

  420. Robert Peffers says:

    @Fred says: 21 December, 2016 at 8:55 pm:

    “Anent railway hotels.”

    Yes, Fred, you are correct but I was only making the point that the propaganda has always been there that attempted to eradicate everything Scottish – no matter what it was.

    Remember this too it began well before that time. After the battle of Prestonpans Prince Charlie paid the Edinburgh infirmary to tend to the injured combatants of BOTH sides.

    A year later Butcher Cumberland ordered the Westminster troops to kill every living thing right across the Scottish Highlands. This order applied not only to the Jacobite troops but to the camp followers, to innocent non-combatants including women and children and even livestock and even pets.

    Not to mention the Government inspired Glencoe massacre was also a Westminster scheme to put down Scots and promote Little England.

    It is still Westminster policy today to take every chance to put anything Scotland and Scots down. That and the petty way the BBC make the Murray Brothers Scottish when they lose and British when they win.

  421. Bob Mack says:

    Courier poll done. Indy surges ahead by a couple of hundred. Guess that won’t be printed then.

  422. ianbeag says:

    Poll still active at 11.07 Indy up to 1407 and gap widening!

  423. Les Wilson says:

    The Courier poll, Mi5 will sort it out for them in the the early hours. Just wait for it.

  424. Cactus says:


    Location, location, location?

    Scotland, Scotland, Scotland!

    May the force of Scotland be with ye..

  425. Breeks says:


    Read further down…

    Had a wee chuckle at the irony of NI by strict definition not being in Great Britain. British, but not Great British. Cruel things words… lol

  426. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 1.48
    I did read it Breeks…My they don’t half tie themselves in knots trying to explain and justify this bloody Union.
    Even to the point of directly or indirectly insulting major supporters of it.
    Does make you think though…How would you actually try and explain it in the UN to other countries?
    Once you try to articulate it you start to sound..Well daft.

  427. Meg merrilees says:

    Les Wilson @ 11.40

    I’ve just voted for indy and it was showing 1,571 ( 52%) votes for Indy and 1,175 for none of the above.

  428. Skintybroko says:

    FFS – Freedom For Scotland – I’ve voted in the courier poll, good to see independence on top!

  429. Breeks says:

    Liz G…

    It seems to me that international recognition for Scotland, whether brought about by referendum, UDI, or my favourite, legal edict on our inappropriatly subjugated sovereignty, would be virtually automatic. You almost get the impression it would in some tiny way reduce beaurocracy at the UN.

    To look at it the other way, what grounds would anyone, and I mean anyone, have to contest Scotland’s sovereignty? For goodness sake, the UN has just recognised the Declaration of Arbroath with UNESCO status, yet the sovereignty enshrined in it, in the country which enshrined it, currently lies dormant for no greater reason than that countries tacit acquiescence that it should!

    We can end the Union by simply saying we want to, or more properly, by pointing out that it is incompetent as an Act of statute. But here’s the pinch, if heaven forbid, Scotland returned a second No result in a referendum, we would be voting to perpetuate a situation which cannot properly exist. We would register our contentment to live under a faux parliament which cannot properly wield Scottish sovereignty, but the unlawful misappropriation of our sovereignty would remain.

    Our situation is absurd, but most absurd of all is our supine acceptance of Westminster’s false supremacy based upon subjugation of a sovereignty which cannot be subjugated. The issue is binary; either we are a sovereign nation, or we are not. Thing is, democracy is not the arbiter of that distinction, because the law is. Democracy, and it is only democracy, which introduces a tertiary option, the option to ignore actuality, ignore legal precedent, and elect to live by contrived and incompetent constitutional nonsense.

    When you see the rabbit, it could not be any clearer. Democracy, that is Indyref2, will not, and cannot, alter the letter of the law. Why ask whether Scotland should or shouldn’t be an independent country when the law already declares it is? A more apposite question would be “Scotland already has sovereign independence which is competent in law, but should we, or shouldn’t we ignore it?

    Have the law establish our sovereign legitimacy, have it recognised internationally, get our European membership ball in the back of the net, then hold a ratification plebiscite of all practicable constitutional options which do not compromise our pristine sovereignty. This isn’t a revolution, it’s simply a matter of good housekeeping, and tidying up a mess.

  430. defo says:

    I have no qualms with what you state. The “we” you speak of needs to be 50% + 1 of the electorate however.

  431. Nana says:

    Government borrowing comes in higher than expected as Brexit ‘shadow’ looms

    No negotiation strategy for Brexit – the UK is heading for a lose-lose

    Russia-US communication channels nearly all ‘frozen’, the Kremlin says

    Barack Obama announces permanent Arctic Ocean oil drilling ban

  432. JACEF says:

    The more I think about it the more I am convinced that the Brexit vote actually tells us more about our neighbours thoughts on the UK than the EU. Given that people who identify as being British are a minority in the UK. Looking at the rhetoric you have to ask what exactly the unionists are defending, they are most definitely not regarded as same status citizens by the vast majority of their peers in the other parts of the UK.

  433. davidb says:

    Yellow and amber warnings for wind up to Christmas Day – retweets Nicola

    That’ll be the sprouts I expect.

  434. defo says:

    Morning Nana.
    Choice cut from your open democracy link.

    “Our media likes to write about crime and corruption as though they are the funny fetishes of Johnny Foreigner: Italian mafia, Russian oligarchs or Mexican drug lords. But this year alone, the former banker and anti-corruption campaigner Roman Borisovich made the claim that three-quarters of the money looted in Russia comes to Britain, the Italian mafia expert Roberto Saviano described the UK as “the most corrupt place on earth”, and our biggest bank was sued for its involvement in laundering Mexican drug money: appropriate, given than HSBC was founded by criminal drug dealers on the back of the Opium Wars.”


  435. Dorothy Devine says:

    Nana , on that last one I think Obama may be on spiteful hiding to nothing. Surely the in coming President can equally announce a free for all in Arctic waters , overturning any ban that the past it ,useless President has made ?

    He will remain useless to me because of Guantanamo Bay , interference in the Scottish referendum and his back of the queue threats over the EU referendum , his accepting of the Nobel peace prize when he had done absolutely nothing at that moment other than get elected – not to mention the worst of all, Libya. Without his pushing Cameron and Hollande would not have dared.

    But he does have a great smile.

  436. Les Wilson says:

    BBCs hard at it this morning again, verbal clips of all of the Unionist parties saying we do not want another referendum. Nothing of course from the SNP. Blatant and open propaganda.

    All while, they may well get permission to take BBC subscriptions straight from the bank account of every household in order to pay for their propaganda.You could not make it up.

    So corrupt is this “Union” they care about nothing else but to keep the people of the UK subjugated, with Scotland at the top of the list.

    The rest of the UK can do little about it, while Scotland really must throw of the chains that bind us because we can.

  437. Macart says:

    Jings Nana!

    You’ve piled up a couple days worth there. 😀

    Right! Kettle on then.

  438. defo says:

    “But he does have a great smile.”

    It’s all that ‘pizza’ he buys. 😉

  439. Les Wilson says:


    Some great links today, thanks for all your efforts.

  440. Nana says:

    @defo Indeed, as you say a choice cut


    I had great hopes when Obama was elected, turned out to be such a disappointment. Just another banker’s puppet.

    I hope this announcement can not be overturned by the Trump

  441. Nana says:


    Doubt I will be around for the next wee while Sam, so I thought to leave you with some ‘light’ reading. I might complile an exam later to see who is naughty or nice and have read my links! haha

    Wishing you all a Happy and peaceful Christmas.

  442. Macart says:


    All the very best yo you and yours Nana.

    As an absent friend might say… peace always.

  443. Proud Cybernat says:

    Courier Poll latest:

    Scottish independence 52.93% (1,672 votes)

    None of the above – we should leave 39.09% (1,235 votes)

    A special deal for Scotland to preserve single market access 7.25% (229 votes)

    Other: 0.73% (23 votes)

    Total Votes: 3,159

    They’ll be choking on their scones in Broughty Ferry!

  444. sensibledave says:

    Morning All

    I know you have all been sat waiting to hear the definitive view on what is going to happen in 2017 with respect to Brexit.

    The answer is …… a huge amount of talking and very little action!

    The UK’s plan for Brexit is clear and obvious. For instance, on trade, the UK will offer tariff free trade with the Eu. That is our “position”. It will then be up to the EU to decline that offer and put forward a counter proposal. Implicit in this strategy is that each country in the EU will then be left explaining to its electorate why they have made their own exports more uncompetitive. If Merkel wants to put up the price of Mercedes, VW, Audi and BMW cars by 10% in the UK then that is within her gift. However, she will have to answer to her electorate for the inevitable, self-inflicted decline in the German economy and the jobs lost as a result. If France insists upon making its wine and food more expensive to the UK then again, that is ultimately their call. However, my guess would be that the french farmers (not necessarily known for their “understanding” in such matters) may also have a view.

    The main issue here is that, as the UK< we have voted to leave the EU so we will leaving. Everyone needs to acclimatise to that – and then the EU needs to decide what sort of a relationship it wants to have with the 5th biggest economy in the world and one that is hugely important to overall strength of the EU economy.

    It is possible that the EU negotiators may be briefed to make an example of us and want to "punish" us for leaving their club. But the punishment would be as painful for the EU as the UK.

    Finally, as with any negotiations that have a deadline (in this case 2 years after Article 50 is triggered) it is almost inevitable that that both sides will grandstand, posture, threaten and pose – right up until the 11th hour of the last day – and only then will any agreement be reached.

    Whilst none of us can know how this will end, I would guess that the agreement that will be reached after two years will be that a temporary arrangement will be agreed that allows for tariff free trade to continue until some other arrangement is agreed at some unknown point in the future., i.e. a fudge.

    I hope this insight helps you all.

  445. defo says:


    Head still stuck up there then ‘Dave’ ?

  446. Ken500 says:

    Scotland will be Independent and still in the EU.

    EnglandWales will be on the outside looking in. NI will be doing what it likes, as usual.

  447. sensibledave says:

    Breeks 7.36 am

    You wrote “We can end the Union by simply saying we want to … ”

    By “we” I hope you mean the majority of folk in Scotland?

    If you did mean that – then I agree with you. Call a referendum, have a vote, find out the result and then accept the decision which ever way it goes.

    The recent referendum clearly shows that a majority of Scots voted to stay in the EU (as they did in South Oxfordshire). However both SCotland and South Oxfordshire are part of the UK and will therefore have to go with the democratic will of the whole of the UK. That is unless, or until, either the people of Scotland or South Oxfordshire, vote to leave the United Kingdom.

  448. Capella says:

    Have a happy Christmas Nana. Doubt you will be able to resist posting the occasional link though! That opendemocracy article is a cracker.

  449. jockmcx says:

    Who started the snp bad catchprase?
    SNP bad is a good catchphrase,it does a job,it says a lot.

    But when someone is being rdiculous,should’nt they be ridiculed?…more.

    “The uk is a partnership of equals”!…”Wheres me washboard”!

    “scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the wold”!…”Wheres me washboard”!

    “The labour party strongly believes in…whatever”!”Where’s me washboard”!

    “I believe strongly that the uk is better off inside the single market, and i don’t believe it is because i have a career to think of”!…”where’s me washboard”!

    “Let’s call it devo max”!…”Where’s me washboard”!

    “Thank you for inviting me on the show andrew and a merry christmas to all at the bbc…”now, wheres me washboard”!

    Anybody think of a good one?

    As in everybody knows the captain’s a lying cnut.
    Ridiculousness need’s ridiculed.

    I’ll get me washboard…sorry…coat.

  450. Ken500 says:

    5th biggest economy in the world? With the 2nd highest debt. 25th economy in the world.

  451. Breeks says:

    defo says:
    22 December, 2016 at 8:18 am

    I have no qualms with what you state. The “we” you speak of needs to be 50% + 1 of the electorate however…

    You miss the point of it Defo. You could argue you need a 51% democratic majority to seek a legal pronouncement, and you could argue you need a democratic majority to abide by it, but the law in application is impervious to democratic mandate. It needs no such thing. In its way, it is absolute, like sovereignty itself.

  452. sensibledave says:

    Yo Breeks! 9.43

    Based upon a lot of the guff written above, it is clear that some common sense needs to be injected every now and again.

    Do you actually disagree with anything I wrote? If you do, please let me know which bit.

  453. galamcennalath says:

    Just noticed The Rev on twitter educating some idiots again about Spain’s attitude to Scottish Indy.

    Perhaps we should have a TopTen Stupid things Unionists say. They do keep spouting the same pish time and time again no matter how powerful the debunk. It goes beyond telling a lie over and over when the lie has become clearly nonsense, that becomes stupidity.

    Certainly, “Spain will veto iScotland’s EU membership”, is up there as a top ten.

    Another would also be, “The SNP doesn’t really want independence”.

  454. Proud Cybernat says:

    Ignore the troll. Just seeking attention – as per. NOw, I’ve something important to do. Where’s me washboard?

  455. Nana says:


    Aye missing Smallaxe for sure, here’s hoping he’s back on kettle duty soon.

    @ Capella
    Have a good Christmas break Capella, and yes you are probably right about posting although my son has said he intends to hide my computer Lol.

  456. sensibledave says:

    Morning Cybie

    … still licking your wounds from our last exchanges? Can’t you cope with reasoned argument?

  457. The Isolator says:

    Not so Sensible Dave @ 9.40

    Dave you lost me at this bit “UK’s plan for Brexit is clear and obvious”.

    Couldnae be arsed reading the rest cause it’s anything ecclefechen but.You know that though and yet you continue to infect threads with absolute steamin pish just like yon Phil.

    Gies peace ffs it’s nearly Christmas.

  458. winifred mccartney says:

    Thanks nana for the links – too much homework for the hols- but will get to them – you work so hard to keep us informed – hope you are well and have a joyful, peaceful Christmas. Right now I have to go for the messages and get cooking. I have to get my grandson to show me how to do links-great idea about top ten union rubbish debunkers – it would be great to have short quick informed answers without causing offence but consideration and maybe even change of mind. Love to all, and to the rev thank you SO much have a peaceful, restful Christmas.

  459. jockmcx says:

    Proud cybernat,i hope i,m not ur troll,i luv wings very

  460. Proud Cybernat says:


    #10: “The SNP doesn’t really want independence.”

    #9: “Indy Scotland would be a target for terrorists and aliens.”

    #8: “Indy Scotland couldn’t use the pound.”

    #7: “The oil is running out.”

    #6: “Indy Scotland would not get organ transplants from rUK.”

    #5: “Indy Scotland would have to join the Euro.”

    #4: “Scotland wouldn’t be allowed to join NATO.”

    #3: “Family in the rUK would become foreigners.”

    #2: “Spain will veto iScotland’s EU membership”

    #1: “You’ll lose your pension.”

    There are more lies they told (and continue to tell) – the above are just the top 10, imo.

  461. jockmcx says:

    And i’m serious!

  462. heedtracker says:

    Wishing you all a Happy and peaceful Christmas.

    You too Nana! Thank you so much for all the great links to news we’d never see and hear normally.

  463. sorry about my post @21 December, 2016 at 1:06 pm
    I ran out of time before I could make any corrections
    to the grammatical errors.

    @galamcennalath 21 December, 2016 at 1:25 pm

    I agree with a 100% of what you say,May and other unionists want a second independence referendum held as soon as possible, they hope by winning it they win it, they will kill off independence and the SNP.

  464. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:
    22 December, 2016 at 9:40 am
    Morning All

    Teresa and her merry band of UKOK goons are going to get exactly what the EU 27 gives them sensibledave.

    Its primarily why they’ve stalled art 50 for as long as possible. Its all just another massive toryboy catastrofuck sensible. Maybe their biggest yet.

  465. Free Scotland says:

    The Courier gave up when they couldn’t shake off a firm 53 percent for independence. They’ve now moved on to Best Leader’s performance at Holyrood.

    Anyone with a modicum of sense, whether they’re of independent mind or unionist persuasion, knows that there is only one answer to that one. As someone commented on here some time ago, watching Nicola versus the so-called opposition at FMQs is like watching Real Madrid versus Auchinleck Talbot (no offence to Auchinleck Talbot).

  466. carjamtic says:

    Has there’s been an early bogof sale on Natalytic Converters ?.

    That is,any story no matter the subject,can be ‘converted’ into an SNPBAD story,but thanks to WoS we can smell them a mile off,keep up the good work Rev. and all the BTL posters.

    These hot gas emitters are polluting our country’s environment,a list of the worst polluters is easy to source,now,where to start ? (spoiled for choice) let’s look at WoS archives,cheers stoker.



  467. sensibledave says:

    Morning Heedy

    How are you today?

    You wrote ” ….are going to get exactly what the EU 27 gives them sensibledave.”

    I think we agree Heedy!

    The interesting questions surround what will that be? Do you agree with my reasoning above?

  468. Marie Clark says:

    Morning one and all. Thanks for all the links Nana, I don’t know when I’ll get to catch up with them.

    Family arrive tomorrow, so busy at the moment getting ready for all the festive. Will pop in and read when I can, probably not much time to post though.

    Merry Christmas to all wingers, I hope Santa is good to you.

    Merry Christmas to oor wee troll, does he not understand it’s peace and love time. Noo awa an gies peace.

  469. heedtracker says:

    The interesting questions surround what will that be? Do you agree with my reasoning above?

    I think you suffer from the very common condition south of Hadrian’s wall, clinically described as rule Britanniaitis sensibledave. Its not that surprising considering how unequal, insular, dull, with the general naval gazing, your country really is.

    All empires die from within sensibledave. Remember this in the next few years.

    Away from UKOK tubthumpers like you, a great deal of your fellow English people are going, “holy christ, what have we done?” Sadly a lot of you are still clinging on to stuff like, “Well we still own Scotland.”

  470. Tam Jardine says:

    sensible dave 9.40am

    You ignore the fact that other EU member states do not want the EU to disintegrate. The quickest and most efficient way for the EU to disintegrate would be to come to a sensible, equitable and tariff free arrangement along the lines you suggest.

    If the UK can get all the benefits of trade that come with being part of the EU without having to pay for it (or a greatly reduced amount) and without having to accept EU migrant workers then France, the Netherlands etc etc would follow. You are an intelligent man so you know this already.

    A hard brexit with trade barriers will hurt EU exports and UK exports… long term the pound will devalue further against the Euro which will provide a balance and EU exports will maybe not suffer too much long term. UK imports will suffer massively from those tariffs and from the pound tanking (as it surely will). And the cost of importing goods for the UK will affect those on low incomes disproportionately.

    Man- I was looking at the spirits industry. In Scotland it is worth about £5.5 billion (total exports inc rUK) from what i can tell. Do you know how many of the Scotch Whisky Association members polled said they wanted to stay in the EU? 90%. So one of our biggest industries thinks this is a very, very bad move.

    They thought the same about indy of course(!) but that was then and this is now. Whether they were right or wrong last time (and I believe history is teaching us they were wrong) that does not preclude them being right now. They were worried about staying in the single market and got behind a no-vote in 2014. I think they were wrong to believe we would end up out of the EU with a yes vote but they were right to be concerned that we should stay in the EU.

    They are extremely worried about staying in the single market in 2016 too and must surely be considering their previous opposition. Do you not think this multi billion pound industry which was given such a strong voice in 2014 against independence should now be ignored?

    For Scotland as a whole the situation seems very clear to me:

    If you are in a car and the driver starts veering off the road towards a precipice do you:

    A. Sit quietly and accept the inevitable catastrophe. After all, it is the family car and you are a member of the family

    B. Begin a dialogue with the driver and other passengers about the direction of travel

    C. Attempt to change course by grabbing the wheel

    D. Get out of the moving vehicle

    The Scottish tories (and indeed your own position) appears to be A. Kezia is opting for B. The SNP are opting for C with a view to D if that fails (as it surely will).

    I personally wouldn’t have got in the car with this maniac in the first place.

  471. The BBC Scottish News just blithely announced that councils can raise the Council Tax by 3% next year without adding the very important fact that that possible rise was confined to the top band.

  472. sensibledave says:

    The Isolator 10:17 am

    … I tried to put your comment to me through Google Translator but no, still no idea what you said.

    Was it that you agree that the The EU will, pretty much, decide what levels of tariff they want imposed on their exports to the UK?

  473. yesindyref2 says:

    Google United Kingdom and click on the map. Zoom right out and compare the size of the whole of the UK compared with the world. Think about a population of 500 million compared with 64 million in the UK. Think further about the rest of Europe, and the other continents, and a world population of 7 billion compared with 64 million, and then tell me the EU will be bowing down and scraping its knees to please the UK.

    Quite frankly my dear, it don’t give a damn.

  474. galamcennalath says:

    Tam Jardine says:

    The Scottish tories appears to be A. Kezia is opting for B. The SNP are opting for C with a view to D if that fails (as it surely will).

    Brilliant analogy!

  475. defo says:

    Your toryboys should have tried learning poker at prep school, rather than brag. 😉

    Even small children* can see their hand is empty, and those bloody jonny foreigners hold all the cards.

    * Please keep small children away from Tories, and Westmidden politicians in general.

  476. Tam Jardine says:

    sensible dave

    And another thing- EU export figures are often quoted by the 4-times brigade. Does anyone truly believe that export figures for international exports excluding the EU would be unaffected by us leaving the single market? Our membership of the EU is a massive factor in our exports to the rest of the world so ignoring the impact on international exports excluding the EU is ridiculous.

    The 4-times argument is based on figures so dodgy it defies belief. They are the only figures we have but they are based on 30% response rates to the survey in question…. extrapolated for the entire Scottish economy: 1700 out of 5500 surveyed responded.

    These will include people who spent time and effort compiling accurate figures and those who pulled figures out of their arse. And yet the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain were treated with less respect!

    As you were.

  477. yesindyref2 says:

    So picking on a small detail about the Faroes doing something 10 years ago, the Unionist parties in Scotland are intent on stuffing themselves into their own turkeys.

    It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

    Pass the Brussels.

  478. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    Teresa and her merry band of UKOK goons are going to get exactly what the EU 27 gives them

    I agree completely that this is the reality of the situation.

    Also, we are now starting to hear that there are in fact two aspects: the divorce settlement and the future trade arrangements. The Tories would like these in parallel while there are hints from the EU that they want them sequentially. First agree the massive get out payment the UK owes, and only then discuss the future.

    IMO there are two options: what the EU wants (with only minor details up for negotiation) or UK walk away.

    And there are hard nuts who would cheerily walk away!

  479. Lenny Hartley says:

    O/T another Media Scrutiny website, good article about Bbc propaganda.

  480. Lenny Hartley says:

    Another Media scrutiny website, good article on bbc propaganda regarding Fidel

  481. heedtracker says:

    defo says:
    22 December, 2016 at 11:10 am
    Your toryboys should have tried learning poker at prep school, rather than brag.

    Its the greatest toryboy catastrofuck since their Iraq invasion tragedy.

    Sensibledave’s a lovely guy, I’m sure, but he displays all the worst of UKOK hubris, low info and arrogance. If Scottish democracy has shown us anything, don’t swallow the endless rule Britannia rubbish pouring out of UKOK newsrooms, because if you do, its only going to come back and vomit all over everyone.

    UKOK hacks are merely the mediocre scribbling gimps of a few billionaires, from Murdoch to the Queen, via nutters like Rowling.

    Fools and toryboys rush in…

  482. galamcennalath says:

    Proud Cybernat says:


    Fair enough, with one exception ….

    #3: “Family in the rUK would become foreigners.”

    …. that is something quite different. It has very sinister undertones which expose the true nature of a great many Unionists. Clearly the implication is that becoming ‘foreign’ is in their mind becoming ‘diminished’, ‘lesser’, ‘other’. Only a xenophobe could see different nationality in that way.

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