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Wings Over Scotland


The same and different

Posted on January 16, 2015 by

For our next grab-bag of data from our twin social-attitudes polls of Scotland and the rUK, let’s take a look at some things where Scottish people converge and diverge from their English, Welsh and Northern Irish counterparts. It’ll be something to do.

bordervan

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BRITAIN SHOULD KEEP THE MONARCHY

Scotland

Agree: 65%
Disagree: 25%
Net agreement: 40

rUK

Agree: 76%
Disagree: 16%
Net agreement: 60 

Scotland/rUK gap: 20 points

Another endorsement for the Yes campaign’s “softly, softly” approach here. There’s actually a very substantial arithmetical difference between attitudes to the royal family in Scotland and the rest of the UK, but not a fundamental one – while significantly less so than everyone else, Scots remain very firmly in favour. An explicitly republican Yes movement would have been toxic.

Women were, as you might perhaps expect, far more monarchist than men – the margin of female support was +48 in Scotland and +67 in the rUK, compared to +30 and +54 respectively for men.

In both polls older people and Tories were most likely to back retention, with SNP voters most opposed, but there was very little difference between social classes.

(SNP voters were the only ones to record a net approval rating of under 20 points, but even they still supported retention by +19. rUK Tories were the biggest fans at +87, while Scottish Labour voters were +48.)

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THE UK SHOULD CONTINUE TO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Scotland

Agree: 44%
Disagree: 36%
Net agreement: 8

rUK

Agree: 51%
Disagree: 27%
Net agreement: 24 

Scotland/rUK gap: 16 points

THE UK SHOULD CUT SPENDING ON THE ARMED FORCES AND DIVERT THE MONEY TO THE WELFARE SYSTEM

Scotland

Agree: 29%
Disagree: 55%
Net agreement: -26

rUK

Agree: 26%
Disagree: 57%
Net agreement: -31 

Scotland/rUK gap: 5 points

These results will disappoint a lot of readers. Perhaps more than they should – we deliberately chose the phrasing “continue” rather than talking about buying a NEW Trident system, because we wanted to first establish whether people objected to nuclear weapons on moral rather than economic grounds.

We found a noticeably lower level of support in Scotland, and one that was a close-run thing rather than the almost 2:1 backing in the rest of the UK, but nevertheless more people still wanted to keep nukes than get rid of them. Only SNP voters opposed the proposition, and only by a narrow -8 margin (37-45).

And Scots were much closer to the rUK when it came to spending money on defence generally. A resounding majority would rather we spent money on protecting ourselves from largely-imaginary military threats than on looking after human beings in our own country. SNP voters were keenest on the proposition, but even they opposed it overall by 36-49 for a net -13.

The old were predictably far more hawkish than the young. Scots aged 18-34 were the only group to back the proposition (by a super-narrow +2, compared to -8 in the rUK), whereas Scots over 55 opposed it by -43 (rUK -54).

More surprisingly, Scottish women were less in favour of cutting defence in favour of welfare spending than men: -30 vs -22. (In the rUK the sexes tied at -31.)

The uncharitable but logical conclusion from the findings is that Scots are barely any less militaristic than people in the rest of the UK, but they don’t like having Trident in their own back yard.

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UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE TO WORK FOR BENEFITS

Scotland

Agree: 60%
Disagree: 30%
Net agreement: 30

rUK

Agree: 66%
Disagree: 21%
Net agreement: 45 

Scotland/rUK gap: 15 points

CUTTING WORKING-AGE BENEFITS LIKE JOBSEEKER’S ALLOWANCE AND WORKING TAX CREDITS HELPS THE ECONOMY

Scotland

Agree: 30%
Disagree: 52%
Net agreement: -22

rUK

Agree: 32%
Disagree: 47%
Net agreement: -15 

Scotland/rUK gap: 7 points

Here’s where things start to get weird. In both categories we again find substantial quantitative differences on the two sides of the border, but not philosophical ones. Our two polls agreed on the principles, but with differing levels of vehemence.

SNP voters are almost solely responsible for the difference, being much further to the left than other parties. They still backed workfare, but only by +16 compared to +30 for Labour voters and +69 for Tories. Interestingly, in the rUK Labour voters were much less in favour of dole-slavery than their Scottish comrades (+15).

The story was the same on cutting working-age benefits: SNP voters opposed it by -44, with Labour the next-closest at -26. (Again, south of the border Labour voters were more left-wing than Scottish ones, at -40.) Tories in both polls strongly backed the “make people poor” approach to growth, by +21 in Scotland and +24 in the rUK.

Alert readers will also have noticed the contradiction hidden in the two questions. People disagree that punishing the poor (whether unemployed or working) helps the economy, yet still want wages depressed by forcing the unemployed to work for effectively nothing, doing jobs which could otherwise go on the market for proper pay.

Once more we can only attribute this to a relentless right-wing media attack on “scroungers”, which the rhetoric of all three Westminster parties meekly complies with and feeds. Attitudes towards the working and non-working poor are one of the most depressing aspects of life in modern Britain, and while Scots aren’t as heartless as the rest of the UK, they’re by no means immune from the poison.

——————————————————————————————————–

THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH TOO MUCH IMMIGRATION IN THIS COUNTRY

Scotland

Agree: 69%
Disagree: 24%
Net agreement: 45

rUK

Agree: 71%
Disagree: 23%
Net agreement: 48 

Scotland/rUK gap: 3 points

We can offer no better illustration of the phenomenon mentioned in the previous paragraph than these findings. Roughly speaking the immigrant population in Scotland is HALF of what it is in the rest of the UK (around 7% compared to 15%), yet public opinion was almost identical, driven by Scotland’s lack of a true native media.

SNP voters were as guilty as anyone else, agreeing by a margin of +43. Scottish Labour voters recorded +49 and Tories +63, with only Lib Dems – and in our poll the Scottish Lib Dem sample was a small one – offering a relative welcome at +17. Only another small sample size prevented UKIP (+91) from distorting the rUK figures more.

Women were more anti-immigration than men (+49 to +41 in Scotland, and a startling +57 to +40 in the rUK), and older people were much more likely to agree with the anti-immigrant proposition (+58 in Scotland, +67 rUK) than younger ones (+28 Scotland, +26 UK), but not a single demographic group came even close to rejecting it.

Yet when we also suggested that “Immigrants are treated as scapegoats for the country’s problems”, there was a considerable level of agreement. Overall both polls disagreed with the proposition, but only by -2 in Scotland and -6 in the UK.

It’s almost as if people want to blame immigrants, while suggesting that they personally are more sympathetic than other people who blame immigrants. Even in a country that’s becoming more and more openly xenophobic and racist, there’s still a residual stigma to that racism.

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In these questions we found that Scots differ quite a lot from the rest of the UK on nuclear weapons, the monarchy and workfare, and less so on immigration, defence spending and benefits, but overall agree on all of them, varying only in degree.

We’ve also learned that constant Unionist attacks on the SNP for being “populist” are completely at odds with reality. The party’s positions on immigration and defence are anything but populist, and cost them more votes than they win.

So what the Nats’ continued leads in the polls would appear to show is that it IS in fact possible to win elections while standing up for your principles, including unpopular ones. Perhaps someone should tell Labour.

.

*Our poll sampled 1007 respondents in Scotland and 1031 across the rest of the UK. Fieldwork 9-14 Jan 2015. Full data tables will be available on the Panelbase website.

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  1. 16 01 15 13:42

    The same and different | Politics Scotland | S...

  2. 16 01 15 14:41

    The same and different - Speymouth

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    Long To Reign Over Us | A Wilderness of Peace

127 to “The same and different”

  1. handclapping says:

    So where is the question on how much do you think your answers have been influenced by:-
    what you have read in the papers?
    what you have seen on TV?
    politicians?
    family and friends?

  2. Macart says:

    And after a cheerful start I’m back to depressed. 🙁

  3. David Smith says:

    I’m struggling to find anything cheering in these numbers.I think it’s time to GTF out and find a country with a majority of intelligent people.

  4. ghostly606 says:

    What a depressing at of statistics!

  5. Grizzle McPuss says:

    Damn it! Just as the day was going well.

    Indeed, the Establishment MSM & BBC have a lot to answer for.

    How many times in the run up to September 2014 did we spend time countering the many spurious and agenda driven tag lines to our ill-informed compatriots? And obviously, some of the propaganda is still working its poison.

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it…”

    Thank goodness Rip Van Jock is slowly awakening.

  6. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I am considering a self medication regime of red wine.

    Depressing, truly depressing.

  7. jimnarlene says:

    I’m with Macart, depressing.

  8. big jock says:

    You are correct about immigration. It’s not an issue in Scotland at all. Yet the old story when England sneezes Scotland gets a cold is very apt. We hear stories constantly in the English media about immigration. This filters nto peoples brains up here and they don’t realise the opposite is actually true. I have spoken to a few yes voters and I am polls apart when it comes to that issue. They have a knee jerk response which is ignorant of the facts. I think if you asked them to explain in a Scottish context why they are anti immigration they would struggle to come up with the facts. It is sadly true that there are many ignoramouses who voted yes.

  9. Edmund says:

    As far as working-age benefits goes, I think there’s a big difference between jobseekers – which is part of the National Insurance system and is a safety net for all of us when we fall on hard times – and in-work benefits like tax credits (and housing benefit), which are a top-up to poverty level wages and should be scrapped immediately in order to force employers to pay the cost of living. Or, the cost of living should be forced downwards rather than propped up with public money.

    This poll is very depressing. A majority of people are against free speech, want capital punishment, and are in favour of enslaving the poor.

    And as for renationalisation and proportional representation, why on earth don’t people vote for what they believe in?! There was a chance not that long ago to make a step towards a fairer voting system (AV might be rubbish but it at least puts paid to tactical voting). It seems the redblue party still gets in despite now having almost no policies in common with the electorate.

  10. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    and now the rain is pissing down outside too.

  11. crisiscult says:

    well it’s disappointing, though perhaps not surprising to many of us who mix with a variety of people, that “we” (Scotland or the UK) think this way.

    I would say, however, that I also support the idea of working for job seekers, for example, but not the way it’s done right now. When I couldn’t find a law job in the 90s and signed on for a few months, I was disheartened to find out at that time that I didn’t qualify for any ‘training’ until I’d been unemployed for 6 months. I’d have been quite happy to be forced to work for a law firm for a few months, while they’d have been forced to take me. Can we have ALL companies forced to take on job-seekers and guarantee a certain level of training?

  12. Doug Daniel says:

    “An explicitly republican Yes movement would have been toxic.”

    But would people really have taken any more notice of that than they did over the other left-wing arguments which seemingly go completely against the reality of what people think? I suppose it would have been a more concrete proposition than simply “once we’re indy we’ll do all these things related to immigrants and welfare recipients that you actually fundamentally disagree with.” But on the other hand, it was made quite clear that independence would remove nukes from Scotland, and people seemingly still weren’t put off. Either way, I feel that until we can break the hold the monarchy has over Scots, we’ll keep having that feeling of subservience. People who think Kate Middleton is somehow above them because she married a particular person don’t strike me as the most obvious agitators for self-determination.

    For the workfare thing, I suspect there’s a bit of a conflict there between a primitive, inherent human instinct (a feeling of injustice when someone gets something you’re not getting) and a learned behaviour (not treating others like dicks, since our survival depends on cooperation). Also a bit of a logic-fail, since people don’t join the dots to realise that workfare leads to companies getting free labour, and therefore employing fewer people.

    I mean, if there’s one thing all these poll results seem to be confirming for us, it’s that human beings are, at heart, deeply selfish creatures – even those who learn that behaviour which perhaps seems instinctively at odds with our sense of injustice are just as human – and therefore selfish – as everyone else.

    (Or maybe we just need to do a better job of bringing people up to be more caring and sharing as children?)

    Or perhaps it’s even more simple than all that – human beings simply aren’t anywhere near as logical as we’d like to think we are, and our opinions are governed far more by instinct than intelligence.

  13. davie says:

    Fundamentally depressing.

    I knew there were stupid, narrow-minded, reactionary people in Scotland. Many of them. But I always thought they were a minority.

    I’m actually quite shaken. Where do results like this leave us? Is the fight worth it: to be independent alongside these pigs? Will be be a fairer society? The Rev’s diagnosis that it is exposure to the relentless right wing negativity of the UK media that shapes attitudes is the only crumb of comfort.

  14. panda paws says:

    Dear God that’s appalling. My faith in mankind/personkind has taken a hammering.

    “Women were, as you might perhaps expect, far more monarchist than men”

    Why would you expect that?

    “UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE TO WORK FOR BENEFITS”

    They’d soon change their minds if they a) lost their job b) found out just how low benefits are.

    They might benefit (pun intended) from watching Jacques Perritti’s BBC (I know!) 2 documentaries about how the super rich are taking us all for a ride.

  15. Desimond says:

    Did Scots polled consider “This country” as the UK or Scotland alone?

    Also lets consider…Scottish Labour voters…formerly working class, now living in their bought council houses or a few rungs up the housing ladder by now after a few booms, leaving behind the poorer people in whatever poor council houses are left. The downward spriral continues with New Labour voters saying “Cut their money the lazy sods or get them sewing mail bags!”. How soon they forget.

  16. crisiscult says:

    @Doug Daniel

    An article I read a while ago – why are we still stupid?

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21729101.800-stupidity-what-makes-people-do-dumb-things.html

  17. Capella says:

    I think this simply illustrates the power of MSM propaganda. Something which needs to be addressed!
    The right wing Labour attitudes in Scotland are probably explained by most left wing Labour supporters migrating to the SNP. Like me for instance.

  18. Hobbit says:

    Interesting – so we’re not as different as we think we are?

    However, if the rUK statistics could be broken down, so we could distinguish the southeast from the rest of rUK, I would hazard the view that rUK would be closer to Scotland than it would be to the southeast. An analysis of these numbers along the lines of the south-east versus everyone else would underscore the real gap, I think.

  19. davidb says:

    Your phrasing of the workfare question is difficult. I vehemently oppose compelling people to work for benefits and/or nothing. But I strongly believe the state should provide work for the unemployed – at minimum wage in order to minimise market distortions. If you as an individual then wish to decline to work at all, its your shout, but don’t ask the rest of us to pick up your bills.

    There are many nuances and subtleties in the questions. On the nukes, yes the UK should have them, but they should be “ours”, not Americas. Made here, controlled here. However an independent Scotland would have no need of such weapons, being neither a permanent member of the Security Council, nor a world hegemonistic power. I see no issue with wanting two different things depending on whether I am in or out of the British Union.

  20. indigo says:

    There’s an interesting theory in psychology called Dabrowski’s theory of personality disintegration which talks about how personality and independence of thought develops. I tend to think these findings illustrate that theory, that most people are deeply instinctive and are easily influenced by group think, unless they have had reason or motivation to develop their own personal value framework.

    It would be interesting to compare this with a survey like this done 70 years ago or so, I suspect there would, historically, have been much more divergence and that the convergence we see here on high profile issues such as immigration is media driven. If so the impact of mainstream media agenda setting is frightening.

  21. Nana Smith says:

    Bloody hell

  22. Renton says:

    I wonder if you cross break these questions with similar ones pre-referendum, if you’d notice any significant differences – particularly around things like Trident. I wonder if what you are seeing is a result of the referendum result, a polarisation of opinion: Having decided to vote one way, or the other are people assuming the entire party – or campaign – platform with that vote – someone who was ambivilent about Trident might give you an answer that makes them seem opposed to it pre-referendum, but having accepted the No argument, becomes wildly in favour of it afterwards?

  23. Calum Craig says:

    Thoroughly, thoroughly depressing… I’m especially bothered by the immigration thing as these numbers don’t reflect my personal experience. Having lived in the West Midlands for over four years you could almost feel the xenophobia. I mean there were houses with UKIP banners in through garden last May for the European elections.

  24. galamcennalath says:

    public opinion was almost identical, driven by Scotland’s lack of a true native media.

    Can anyone doubt the results would have been different if we did have a native media.?

    Perhaps, given the dire stay of the media, we should be surprised so many differences in attitude can be detected!

    If Scotland had a free and independent media reporting the news from a Scottish standpoint, especially broadcast, attitudes would drift quickly from the UK norm. Differences would be greater. And, where there is currently no measurable difference, gaps would appear.

    Too many Scots take what the read and hear from London as being of greater relevance to their lifes than is actually the case. It is no coincidence that SNP voters, who almost by definition are orientated to viewing events through Scot-centric eyes, deviate most in attitude.

  25. PickledOnionSupper says:

    Interesting that Labour voters in rUK are to the left of those in Scotland – shows perhaps that the SNP has successfully taken on left-wing Scottish Labour voters, leaving SLAB with the Blairites? In England particularly there is not as ready an alternative for those on the left.

  26. Ross says:

    a couple of points,in my opinion:

    if the nucleur weapons questions asked it in relation to Scotland it would have got a substantially different answer.

    if the immigration question had clearly stated the “country” in question was Scotland it would have had a substantially different answer.

    The way questions are asked are important. A Scot may feel there are immigration problems in Bradford but not Bo’ness.

    They may feel a small, progressive country like Scotland doesn’t need nor want Nucleur but a residual world “power” like the UK does.

  27. robertknight says:

    As has been said, time to pack up and leave this land – I’m starting to feel like a human trapped in a ‘zombie apocalypse’ movie.

  28. Malcolm says:

    I’m depressed. So much for the new Scottish enlightenment.

  29. heedtracker says:

    I think the poll results reflect almost exactly what we are taught and told to think, day in day out and throughout our teamGB/English lives, by BBC, ITV, maybe a hundred newspapers etc. Its how some other societies structure themselves. teamGB/England is much like the USA and we focus virtually all our attention abroad on the US. The media in both the UK and the US are very similar but they are completely different from say Germany, Scandinavia or Japan and obviously draw in a very different professional mentality/personality to get the teamGB propaganda perpetually belching out at us all. Scotland’s role in the UK is essentially territorial, exploited resources, expansion for English people and Scots can make a life for themselves in teamGB world or leave. How many Scots have emigrated since 1980 and how many are heading away now?

  30. Roger Mexico says:

    There’s actually no surprise in Scotland having very similar attitudes on immigration (even though when I’ve pointed this out to Stu before he’s shouted at me). If you look at attitudes in England, the strongest antipathy to immigration is usually where there has actually been least. So if anything you might expect it to be higher in Scotland. There are similar patterns in UKIP voting success in England – they do poorly in areas of high immigration such as London.

    Of course it’s fuelled in part by the media, but if people see declining services and resources, they see bring in extra people, and so increasing the pressure on those things, as being a bad idea. Even if they also feel that immigration is not the main cause of the decline, they may

    I don’t think people are being politically correct though. I think many do genuinely distinguish between immigration and individual immigrants who they see as acting in the same way as they would in that situation. The blame is directed towards those who have allowed or even encouraged the immigration.

    There’s also the complication that when you ask Scots about ‘too much immigration to the country’, they may also be thinking of people coming in from other parts of the UK as well. But maybe that’s for another question another time.

  31. ClanDonald says:

    You wonder what goes on inside the heads of the right wing media moguls that run Britain; “Lets turn everyone into spiteful, resentful, intolerent, jealous xenophobes, then they will elect right wing governments that benefit us from a tax point of view.”

    I’m actually having difficulty believing this poll, denial maybe, sorry Stu.

  32. Hobbit says:

    Perhaps we are beginning to understand why ten percent of the people in Scotland who voted in the European elections, did so for UKIP. That vote wasn’t as anomalous as we might have hoped.

  33. ErinT says:

    The responses to the questions on workfare and immigration are pretty depressing.

  34. Tamson says:

    Struggling with the notion that 37% of SNP voters are happy with Trident.

    Obviously it’s not their primary concern, but it’s still odd.

    Overall the results are a chilling demonstration of manufacturing consent

  35. Caroline Corfield says:

    Jobseeker’s Allowance is not a safety net, I paid NI contributions but didn’t decide to sign on after my children were born for a few years till I was ready to look for a job, I was not entitled to job seekers allowance despite having paid contributions. If you sign on five years after you last worked all those contributions have mysteriously disappeared. If it’s a net, it’s one that dissolves five years after you made it.

  36. Dcanmore says:

    Now you know the role of the MSM plays in forging certain pathways for the population to go down. It’s the case of repeating the same issues over and over again 24hrs a day to achieve a mindset. Tell me, how any real left newspapers are around today? or are they all about bad immigration, bad foreigners, bad fat people, bad unemployed, bad poor people, bad food banks, bad NHS, good nuclear weapons, good force protection, good armed services, good rich people, good privatisation, good free market politics, good neoliberalism… this is what happens when the media is owned by six people, all of them Tory donors or with a right-wing agenda.

    There’s no balance anymore and people are being duped into believing that the world they live in cannot be changed so you have to protect your lot and stuff anybody else.

  37. Roger Mexico says:

    Oops a line got lost there:

    “Even if they also feel that immigration is not the main cause of the decline, they may be against something they perceive as making it worse.”

  38. ClanDonald says:

    Also, kind of think its a bit meaningless to compare Scottish Labour or Tory voters in Scotland with English ones as so many traditional Tory (and Labour) folk in England now call themselves UKIP, and loads of traditional Labour voters in Scotland are now SNP so there isn’t really a like for like.

  39. Calgacus says:

    Baws

  40. bookie from hell says:

    These polls today show me Scotland wants a Federal Union or Home Rule{everything but defence/foreign affairs)

  41. Lollysmum says:

    Well Stu, these posts have well & truly screwed up my birthday today. It’s enough to make me reach for the tranquilisers except I can’t-I don’t read MSM & don’t have a TV licence anymore 🙂

    Most of these results I put down to politicians lying to the public to save their own hides, careers & very nice salaries/expenses, thank you very much. They couldn’t do it without the collusion of all tentacles of the media repeating their corrupt messages ad infinitum until we hear it so much that we believe it.

    Your poll would certainly lay to rest the argument that a new Scottish enlightenment is underway given the narrowness of the results between Scotland & UK.

  42. I have been a royalist all my days, but if they make it a choice between queen and country. Sorry madge

  43. Clootie says:

    The media dictate the fears. The media spin the positive monarchy story.
    The world generated by the media is the manure that helps UKIP grow.

    Did the poll give any good news 🙁

    I accept the poll results – I was just hoping for something better from my fellow Scots.

  44. Amar says:

    Your question/interpretation on workfare is a bit misleading.

    I would have said I was for getting people to work for unemployment benefit (as the question asked) however I also would say that they must be paid minimum wage! (And therefore am against workfare in its current form which I consider slave labour)

  45. Geoff Huijer says:

    I really wish I hadn’t read thsi.

    Although the views of people commenting gives
    at least a glimmer of hope for humanity.

  46. indigo says:

    Cheer up folks! Do the results of these polls not show clearly just how much changed last year and how much was achieved during indyref?

    Scottish people became the dominant narrative in our country for a few brief months, and then we were background noise again. But during those few months we changed minds forever, maybe not enough, but many, many people woke up.

    It’s not surprising that most people think the things that the media tell them to think. What indyref demonstrated is that when the dominant narrative changes, people’s attitudes can change.

    It’s why it’s so important that our independence minded media in whatever form continue to be supported.

  47. Dcanmore says:

    Good news today is the Green Party in England and Wales is experiencing a surge in support akin to what happened in Scotland, they’re now only 1000 members short of overtaking the LibDems.

  48. merida says:

    Particularly upset by the nuclear weapons percentage, although the rest is pretty depressing to. I think I’ll join Bugger the Panda and drown my sorrows, although I’ll choose the white variety.

  49. Taranaich says:

    This might be considered desperate Pollyannaism on my part, but let’s look at it this way:

    BRITAIN SHOULD KEEP THE MONARCHY

    The establishment (business, parties, press, media) is virulently, relentlessly pro-Monarchy. Any bad news related to them is buried, ridiculed or stifled, while they are practically never off our screens or papers when anything remotely celebratory is up. Yet even with this enormous pro-Monarchy bias, a whole 25% of Scots & not-negligable 16% of rUK citizens see through it, and want to abolish the monarchy. Most cheering, only 65% of Scots can muster enough enthusiasm to say we should keep it: another 10% cannot be convinced either way. In comparison, a whole 76% of rUK citizens are behind the monarchy.

    THE UK SHOULD CONTINUE TO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS

    As with the monarchy, the establishment is resolutely pro-nuclear weapons. This has been the case for years, far longer than the referendum campaign, where the UK is apparently at constant risk from invasion from people practically half the world away (Iraq, Syria, North freaking Korea). Yet 36% of Scots and 27% of rUK citizens reject this pro-nuclear bias, despite these apparent threats to our safety. And, while over half of rUK citizens support nukes, not even half of Scots do.

    THE UK SHOULD CUT SPENDING ON THE ARMED FORCES AND DIVERT THE MONEY TO THE WELFARE SYSTEM

    Again, the sinister “Military Pact” has been going on for over a decade, where the Armed Forces are treated with an almost American reverence – yet at the same time, we hear stories of underfunding leading to soldiers going into warzones without adequate kit, and see cuts all over the place. This has been concurrent with the rise of the “benefit scroungers” meme. Is it any wonder, then, that a lot of people buy into both? Once again, it’s encouraging that 36% of Scots and 27% of rUK see through the establishment’s machinations.

    UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE TO WORK FOR BENEFITS

    This is the most troubling one for me, as 60% is a pretty big number – but again, 30% see through the “Benefits Street” culture. I’d like to think, like others have, that there might be something lost in translation to account for the clash with the next question:

    CUTTING WORKING-AGE BENEFITS LIKE JOBSEEKER’S ALLOWANCE AND WORKING TAX CREDITS HELPS THE ECONOMY

    Perhaps when you put it in a more specific context, people give a more considered response. Hence that question a few polls ago, where arguably well over half of people support independence if you don’t call it independence.

    THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH TOO MUCH IMMIGRATION IN THIS COUNTRY

    Again, 24% of Scots and 23% of rUK disagree despite the absolutely overwhelming message that THERE IS IN FACT A PROBLEM WITH TOO MUCH IMMIGRATION IN THIS COUNTRY from the establishment. It should be remembered, of course, that “this country” could mean “the UK” to some Scots, as well as rUK citizens. Therefore a Scot could say that there is a problem with too much immigration *in the UK*, but not Scotland itself.

    Overall, there’s definitely some sobering reading here, but there’s still hope for change. The lowest number which worries me is still over 20%: it wasn’t too long ago that support for independence was only polling between 20-30%.

    Never forget we have seen an absolutely MASSIVE propaganda campaign for the British Establishment, where their “truths” (too much immigration, nukes are necessary, more military spending, less welfare spending) is broadcast to the UK without question by the papers or tv stations. Yet even with all this, a significant proportion of the UK population doesn’t believe them. That number can only grow, if we continue our cause in exposing the media and establishment.

    Does anyone think we’ll have remotely as many monarchists once the abuse revelations become unavoidable? Does anyone think we’ll be nearly as pro-nukes once the time comes up for renewal? Does anyone think we’ll be quite as anti-immigration when we’re out of Europe and see millions of retirees come home while millions of skilled workers are kicked out?

    The work isn’t done yet, and while it’s grim reading, it’s far from insurmountable.

  50. Karmanaut says:

    Right. That’s it.
    I’ve had enough.

    I’m off to start a new country on an uninhabited island somewhere. Anyone else want to join me?

    Seriously, the answers to some of the questions might have been different had the been slightly altered. For instance if you’d said, “Should we spend £100bn on improving welfare and health or on new nukes?” I would hope the answer would be against nukes. But perhaps that’s just wishful thinking. And regarding the immigration question. People are bombarded daily about “immigration crisis” in “this country”, meaning the UK. Not Scotland. I wonder if people tool “this country” to mean “the UK”.

    Doesn’t cheer me up much, though. Whatever happened to the left? Maybe we are a racist selfish warmongering people, and Labour were right to move there to secure their votes.

    How depressing.

  51. Alex Boitz says:

    Maybe a bit of PC creeping into the conclusions and comments. On defence I suspect many people are not particularly hawkish but feel, as I do, that UK defence has been cut to the bone as it is. I understand we are barely keeping to our NATO commitment on spending. By all means get rid of nukes, but we should at least be able to provide a carrier complete with aircraft, and maritime patrol aircraft, to help Nato to maintain a conventional deterrent. The cuts so far have meant we are unable to do that.

    On immigration, the point is why are we relying on so many immigrants in the NHS and to fill low paid jobs in the first place? While being thankful for their presence, I think we should be training local people to fill these skilled jobs , and paying a living wage to encourage local people into the more unskilled jobs. Why on earth are we not doing that? Taking that view then there are indeed too many immigrants.

  52. Macart says:

    You’re saving the best till last right?

    Going for the big Glen Daly finish?

    Bear in mind I’ve got the oven door open. 🙁

  53. Helena Brown says:

    Well I have given up drinking lots of red wine so I cannot join the Panda, I have a nice bottle of Mother’s ruin though, boy is it in for a battering. I have to say I am not unfortunately surprised at any of this. People watch TV and read the mainly English biased press and believe every word. I get really fed up listening to the statement that we have some of the most sophisticated electorate. Aye right, so sophisticated that they voted in a pile of troughers who were caught with their hands in the till, I wish it has been possible for us to leave this country. I also wish you hadn’t commissioned this poll, beginning to wonder if it is worth the effort.

  54. Helena Brown says:

    Macart light the gas it isn’t worth it.

  55. galamcennalath says:

    A few people here deducing Scots are pro Trident. That is unlikely.

    The poll asked people to agree that the UK should continue to have nuclear weapons. Not everyone is aware that Trident is in fact the only nuclear weapons system the UK deploys.

    If the statement had explicitly mentioned Trident, then I have little doubt more Scots would be against.

    Similarly, people were asked if the UK should cut spending on the armed forces. Two effects here perhaps. It asked UK not a future independent Scotland. And, the phrase armed forces might tend to imply personnel. If instead defence was used figures might be more pro-welfare.

    You get the answers the questions ask for, to some extent.

  56. Macart says:

    @ Helena

    Yer, right.

    Time to crack a bottle of toilet duck and get hammered.

  57. wee sandy says:

    Yes.A bit depressing.But it serves to emphasize the importance of continuing to get our message out there.
    SNP HQ need to start mobilising our 100000 potential foot soldiers of which I am one.
    We people, arguing the case in pubs, clubs, workplaces and trying to convince friends and neighbours, need to be provided with the information from SNP HQ to–
    a) support our arguments
    b) keep our arguments consistent
    c) allow us to be PRO-ACTIVE!
    I am encouraged by Stu’s conclusion though!

  58. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I would have said I was for getting people to work for unemployment benefit (as the question asked) however I also would say that they must be paid minimum wage!”

    That’s not an option. Respondents were asked if they thought people should have to work for benefits. Benefits are what they are.

  59. Helena Brown says:

    Reading some of the comments I would say when I worked at the bottom of Leith Walk I used to joke that I was one of the few natives, but given that the Asian food store was up the road from my work what did I expect. Edinburgh and I am sure Glasgow probably has more immigrants than many other parts of Scotland, in fact anywhere in the Central Belt. Oh it is easy to pick out our Sub Continent migrants, but around my way the biggest will be from England. My Husband joked this morning that we must be among the few Scots left. That does not make all immigrants bad or that we should get rid of them, how many of us have family elsewhere in the world living in another country?
    I have a non Scots Sister in Law who I do not want to lose.

  60. DaveyM says:

    The last two questions are a perfect example of the ‘I’m not racist, but…” phenomenon, and also highlight the ‘attribution error’ theory in psychology. People are happy to blame immigrants (in this case, see immigrants as “a problem”), but then attribute the blame as coming from outside of themselves.

  61. Helena Brown says:

    I think I must have missed some of this but giving that the English NHS is never out of the papers or off the Television, has there been a question on this, that it is in it’s death throes and should be Privatised to make it better, because if Scots go along with this we know that we need more newspapers.

  62. R-type Grunt says:

    Now Boarding for Darien 2!

  63. gordoz says:

    If anyone didn’t realise the power of British Media before then they better wak up now.

    Its vital Scotland gets control over British 24hr Brainwashing.

    As capella said –
    “I think this simply illustrates the power of MSM propaganda”

    It couldn’t be clearer.

    Many Scots are ‘wannabe’ Englishmen through their clinging to dated British values.

    So sad but predictable with Big Brother brainwahing regime.

  64. Chris Baxter says:

    The results from this poll are starting to make me think “Fuck independence. You cunts (Scotland and rUK) deserve one another.

  65. Grizzle McPuss says:

    I’ll get panned for this, but hell, it’s Friday.

    William Golding summed it all up perfectly when the boys considered their short-comings, having tried to form their own society…

    “I just take the conch to say this. I can’t see no more and I got to get my glasses back. Awful things has been done on this island. I voted for you for chief. He’s the only one who ever got anything done. So now you speak, Ralph, and tell us what. Or else…”

    Piggy broke off, snivelling. Ralph took back the conch as he sat down.

    “Just an ordinary fire. You’d think we could do that, wouldn’t you? Just a smoke signal so we can be rescued. Are we savages or what?”

    I’ll leave the metaphor analysis to all you bumfaces.

  66. Callum says:

    “Hobbit says:
    16 January, 2015 at 1:49 pm
    Interesting – so we’re not as different as we think we are?

    However, if the rUK statistics could be broken down, so we could distinguish the southeast from the rest of rUK, I would hazard the view that rUK would be closer to Scotland than it would be to the southeast.”

    I was thinking something similar – rUK is too big to get a read on what this means – in many questions rUK are returning more liberal/socialist results than Scotland which is unexpected. My hunch is that the big cities in England drag it leftward (look at UKIP gaining next to no traction in London) whereas the shires are dianetrically to the right. A breakdown of urban vs rural voters in Scotland and rUK I think might be more revealing?

  67. Training Day says:

    I remember seeing an interview with ‘Wullie in the street’ – on Sky, I think. Wullie was asked if he thought cuts to public expenditure were necessary. He said Yes. When asked why he thought they were necessary, he had not the faintest idea – ‘cos they are’.

    A very simple demonstration of how consent is manufactured by exposure to what Saul Bellow called ‘gas clouds of opinion’. Some of us may be more resistant to these gas clouds, but no one is immmune. And when the gas clouds emanate from sources which are uniform in their thinking then we see the results as they are in the Rev’s poll.

    The only solution is to keep encouraging our fellow Scots to think critically, and question bloody everything. Reading Wings would be a fine start for the uninitiated.

  68. jules says:

    FFS, did you have to publish this? Makes me want to move to Norway.

  69. Martin Wood says:

    Next time could you include a question about which daily newspaper they read, to find out if it is a media brainwashing effect, or if we as a nation truly are shifting to the right

  70. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Rev deserves great credit for publishing this stuff – easier by far to ignore or bury it.

    And it makes the choice all the more obvious i.e. there isn’t one. We have to fight these people – twenty years ago there may have been some excuse, but they’ve been forced to show themselves and their networks via indy-ref. We know who they are.

    Public Enemy, ‘Fight The Power’ –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk

  71. bjsalba says:

    I found the questions a bit black and whitish whereas most of my answers are grey.

    Bit like the referendum appears to have been for some people.

    The ironic thing is that the one question that was black and white for me was the referendum!

  72. McBoxheid says:

    The question about working for benefits could be seen as misleading.
    Do people agree that people should work for benefits(if they are capable), which is labour on the cheap (and why would any employer take them on after the trial period is up if they can get another cheap labourer through the system), or agree that if they don’t accept , say 3 offers of employment (that they are capable of doing) without good reason, their benefit should be stopped (for 3 months as was the case in Germany before they started doing the jobfare type practikas for example)?
    So long as employers can get away with replacing one jobfare worker with the next as easily as they can at present why would they employ anyone full time when they have a heavily subsidised, or even free labour paid for by the government doing the same costly (in comparoson) job that would normally be filled by a normally employed person?
    At the same time, why would anybody being forced to do a jobfare type job, knowing full well that they won’t be taken on at the end of the probationary period, work in a dedicated and meaningful way?
    Basically, in its present form, it is a return of the workhouses from the victorian era in all but name.

  73. muttley79 says:

    After viewing their methods and behaviour closely during the referendum campaign, I firmly believe that the MSM essentially exist to legitimise the major parties, main interests, and the political establishment in the UK. I think Chomsky has refered to the MSM as the governing media, and I reckon that it the best way of describing them.

  74. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Quite depressing conclusions.

    Based on the answers an appropriate one could be, do you think yer aff yer fechin chump?

  75. Midgehunter says:

    The results are not making me jump for joy as to what was asked and the answers.
    Some folk said that if we formulated the questions a little bit differently we might have had a better attitude with the answers. Who knows?

    IMO it’s better we know NOW what folk are really thinking than us running a campaign, lulled in to thinking everything is okay dokey and we’re bathing in magic stardust.

    The truth may hurt but it should be a catalyst for future planning and strategy.

    HOWEVER, having said that, we shouldn’t be unhappy. The national polls have got the SNP/Greens/SSP in a massive lead for the GE15.
    We’ve got the buggers on the run so something can’t be all that bad.

    Keep the red wine and gas for cooking – 🙂

  76. Capella says:

    Interesting that Keir Hardie was against immigration. The prospect of having cheap “foreign” labour being imported and undercutting wages was most likely the reason then as now, the mine owners were very keen on cheap labour. But he was very hard on the Lithuanians for eating garlic.
    “Keir Hardie, in his evidence to the 1899 House of Commons Select Committee on emigration and immigration, argued that the Scots resented immigrants greatly and that they would want a total immigration ban.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keir_Hardie

  77. Colin Cameron says:

    On “working for benefits”, I think the proposition could be taken to mean that working-age benefits have to be earned (disability benefits excluded of course), hence the requirement to show proof of job applications in order to receive Jobseekers Allowance. I am hardly a proponent of Workfare, but I would probably find myself ticking the “Agree” box on that question based on my reading of it.

  78. gillie says:

    Don’t these results reflect the most human of reactions. To be seen and heard on what appears to be the right side of the argument even if it feels wrong.

  79. KOF says:

    “Britain should keep the monarchy”?

    Isn’t that a bit of another flawed question? “Britain”? Do you mean the UK? By using the word “Britain”, it seems as though you are referring to the “British” monarchy, not just monarchy as a concept.

    I would have answered the question with a “disagree”, as I don’t wish to see the “British” monarchy continue. I am a Scots monarchist and wish to see an independent Scots monarchy.

    However, my “disagree” in the results would be taken as an endorsement of a republic. I am no republican.

    Interesting enough stuff in the poll results, but it should be taken with a large dose of salt.

  80. Midgehunter says:

    I nicked this from “Scot goes pop” (Scotch Pop!)

    SNP 49%,
    Labour 22%,
    Conservatives 13%,
    UKIP 7%,
    Liberal Democrats 5%,
    Greens 3%.

    Don’t be depressed – we’re doing quite well. 😉

  81. Capella says:

    Cheer up everyone! You have to start with where people are. Brainwashed!
    The power of the MSM and years of being presented with alien values from an alien culture have done a lot of damage to the Scottish psyche.
    But we have the alternative media. Many talented and clever people are creating media space which reflects our real lives better. Rev Stu for example.
    Onwards and upwards as Chris Cairns said.

  82. McBoxheid says:

    A lot of people of my generation, I finished school in 1979, found it impossible to get work and joined the army. I did. Its still the case today but the risks of being dragged into illegal wars (as opposed to the cold war) and being killed or maimed are far higher recently. The Scottish regiments have a very good/feared reputation (depending on which side your are on) and this sentiment still lingers today. There is still a need for a standing army, but we don’t need to fight for rich businessmen to get even richer. A reservist army, where the soldiery are also employed in other fields, but give the country a trained fighting force in time of need, with just the minimum of full time soldiers to supervise and train the reservists, would fulfil the country’s need for military security.(Without nukes.)

    Just as in other questions of your poll, there is little or no leeway for other solutions, so people just answer as if what we currently have is the only alternative.

    Without a change in the current electoral system however, other alternatives won’t be forthcoming anytime soon, as we won’t see alternative governments being elected.

  83. David Smith says:

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say again; this is surely evidence of the most successful collective brainwashing exercise conducted by an occupying power in recorded history.

    I just hope our people don’t have to endure the kind of stark awakening into adulthood that the Germans suffered.

  84. David Smith says:

    There again, I remember how I thought just four short years ago and I was just like those people in the survey.
    Maybe there is hope after all.

  85. KennyG says:

    I’m truly shocked that the majority of Scots asked want to keep the monarchy and would rather spend more on defence and give less to those who need it. Where the fuck were you asking the questions, Larkhall or Bridgeton?

  86. osakisushi says:

    I remember one of a pontiffs hangers-on quoted as saying “flying into the UK is like arriving in a 3rd world country.”

    As a Scot, arriving at Heathrow and asked “is there too much immigration”, it would be hard to answer anything other than a resounding yes. As a Scot, visiting a company in Bedford and being amazed at the ethnic (lack of) balance, it was intimidating. I would rather Scotland not suffer such careless immigration as experienced south of the border and suspect rather a few others feel exactly the same way.

    As for nuclear, I wish some future YES campaign involve a mass gathering to visit Faslane and distribute the only NO leaflets worth having. Aside from Dundee, it was interesting the two YES regions were both in the fallout zone from Faslane.

  87. Democracy Reborn says:

    Well Stu, do you think his Lordship George Foulkes will he trashing these poll results?

    I’ll bet that Clegg, McColm, Torrance, Gardham, Carroll, Cochrane and Farquharson are all having multiple orgasms poring over the findings…. “We told you so! The Jocks are no different!”

    What interests me though is why 45% (and if current polls are to be believed, slightly higher) want to leave a state where on the face of it, they do not diverge fundamentally in social values from rUK? I know my reasons, but I’m curious to see some robust polling for the Scottish population at large.

  88. galamcennalath says:

    Capella says:
    Interesting that Keir Hardie was against immigration

    My understanding is that the reason Australia had very strict controls on non-white immigration was because unions, workers and the Australian Labour Party feared the bosses bring in low paid workers. Time was when the Left drove anti-immigration policies.

  89. manandboy says:

    Probably get burned at the stake for this, but at least I’ll be warm for a while –

    Zooming out a bit, so as to get a wider field of view, say, the past 50 years. Religious belief and practice in the various Christian traditions in the UK, was far stronger 50 years ago, than today. Gradually, this strength has weakened and continues to do so.

    My point is that throughout this period, many have asked what system of belief is Britain going to replace Christianity with, which will be good enough and strong enough to sustain the population and keep it on a path of broadly moderate social justice.

    Well , it has been replaced alright – just not with anything which is even remotely connected to social justice. In fact one could argue with some ease that the very opposite is true. We now live in a social tyranny.

    A tyranny in which equality has been replaced with an elitism so powerful, that real democracy has almost been completely neutralised, and, rampant greed and corruption throughout business and our political institutions, has produced huge swathes of society which are both arrogant in their regard for ‘ordinary’ people and hard of heart toward their legitimate needs.

    Am I advocating a return to the past. No. I’m not big on nostalgia. But I do believe that there was much that was good in the past which has been jettisoned along with the bad. Let the bad stay where it is, but perhaps what was good might be recovered and restored for where we are today and who we are today and tomorrow.

    Whatever merit, or lack of it, there is, in what I have just said, one thing is for sure – we can’t go on like this for much longer without descending into something which in the old days, people called hell on earth.

    We all need something better to believe in.

    Now, red or white, dear? Limoux? Excellent.

  90. john king says:

    “Perhaps someone should tell Labour

    OR NOT!

  91. john king says:

    I demand a recount!

  92. liz says:

    Like everyone on here, we are the minority, FFS!

  93. Dr Jim says:

    Binary questions receive binary answers “Shock horror” Do you want to live? or do you want to die? Polls though helpful, and fun ways to pass the time, only become practical when the right questions are asked. It’s more than easy to arrange a poll to conclude any result you need it to show than to devise a neutral poll in order to inform truth, advertisers, polititions superstores do it all the time and then use the poll to tell you “Not our fault that’s what you think” but of course it’s not, because on any given day, at any given time, in any given mood any person, may have a different reply to any given question.
    Polling is now a business used for the sole purpose of convincing the masses they don’t need to think “We do it so you don’t have to” sign here, buy now, vote the same way everybody else does, it’s easier, why be different? are you strange? of course you must think this, now take your medicine, doctor knows best
    Switch off now……..end

  94. Gary says:

    This is fascinating. No doubt political parties have been running polls like this for years and know all about this. I am absolutely ‘astonished’ at the power of propaganda to shape SO MANY of our opinions. I saw how the government waged a media campaign in favour of a new war after being defeated over Syria, that shocked me, but it was ONE issue. This is a wide range of propaganda shoved down public throats across a variety of media over a long time period.

  95. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Looks like I will have to wait longer for the Republic of Scotland.

    Hey Ho.

    Main thing is to break the House of Lords and the Honours System so that the Monarchy has less influence in an Indy Scotland.

    Then we could wheel out the Royals for the tourists now and again. I suppose I could live with that.

    Wee Prince George did look very cute in that Jersey…

  96. Phii Robertson says:

    “yet public opinion was almost identical, driven by Scotland’s lack of a true native media.” leads into a very patronising theme to this thread.

    The gist is that I (the writer of the specific post) am intelligent enough to see through the mist of misinformation but the rest of the populace does not have the same perspicacity and is led by the nose by the mainstream media.

  97. john king says:

    Dcanmore says
    “There’s no balance anymore and people are being duped into believing that the world they live in cannot be changed so you have to protect your lot and stuff anybody else.”

    I am now getting PROPER scared.

    Im starting to feel as if I live in “The village” and the star of a show only I am unaware Im in!

  98. Dointhebiz says:

    These figures are a perfect illustration of why it is essential [on the run up to May this year] that the Pro-Independence supporters – that are posting here on WoS – MUST continue to speak with family,friends,colleagues,partners,etc.

    Sure, we were all “fired up” on the build up to and during the Referendum,[as were 1.6 million Yessers!] but,that enthusiasm and “empowerment” Has to be continued through OUR knowledge shared with others.

    Judging by These poll figures there STILL seems quite a bit of work to be done.

  99. dougiekdy says:

    I’m with Macart on this one – but it’s pretty difficult typing this on ma phone with ma heid in the gas oven:-)

  100. Smout says:

    @Taranaich

    Please keep your Pollyanna moments going.

    Apart from a few exceptions, I found the results in this poll so far very depressing.

    Until I read your take, thank you. Optimism is contagious.

  101. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I have to say that many of the answers don’t correspond (quite dramatically don’t correspond) with any group of people I am aware of.
    I wonder how the cross section was designed. Were folk with above average intelligence factored out

  102. K1 says:

    And yet…45% of us voted Yes in September and the surge in numbers for indy parties afterwards is a testament to that most human of qualites; Hope.

    We are the grassroots of the alternative narrative to the one presented relentlessly by the MSM. We always knew and still do that over the past 20 to 30 years we have been literally subjected to a relentless sheep coralling excercise. To my mind the referendum was a ‘snapshot’ of the degree, extent and sucess of the ‘population control’ that has been/is underway.

    Although some of these results seem to confirm a ‘homongeny’ of attitudes across both countries. On a more basic level they merely ‘confirm’ that people regurgitate what they have consumed, quite often ‘undigested’. So they show a snapshot of who is in the ‘pen’ of the narrative.

    There is no staticstical methodology that can measure the sense of hope that lead to that 45% result. We are in the process of freeing sheep from the pen.

    Some of these results just flag the dominant themes. Let’s continue…the movement. It is always…toward Yes.

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    Re nuclear weapons I think you have it in a oner, personally I’d be happy to get rid of nuclear weapons from the Clyde we’ve had them long enough it’s someone else’s turn, but wouldn’t want to deprive the UK of its weapons if it wants them – just get them out of Scotland thank you and good night, they’ve got 10 years that’s plenty.

    Workfare however I slightly disagree in that workfare is slave wages for the JSA, whereas giving or even forcing employment but at minimum wage I’d go along with. I’d also say that perhaps many of us know people who almost have to stay on benefits as if they work they get LESS and see that the system is rubbish. Perhaps in Scotland we know more about our neighbours, we are smaller after all and more “local”. The principle is acceptable, the implementation is Victorian IDS (spit, soap, wash fingers, spit again).

  104. Michael McCabe says:

    In reading all these posts about the depressing poll results. There is some good News. LOLLYSMUM is Celebrating her Birthday today. So HAPPY BIRTHDAY LOLLYSMUM Hope you have a great day. Will put a wee tune on off topic for you. I Noticed it was your birthday from your post at 2:23

  105. Natasha says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill, 7.07pm
    Were folk with above average intelligence factored out
    Very funny.

    By the way, you were asking on another thread whereabouts in Nigeria I lived. We were in Jos between 1970 and 1976. My father worked as an archaeologist at Jos Museum. Before that we were in Ghana, where I was born. We came back to Britain in 1975; it was a huge shock to my system!

  106. Patrick Roden says:

    I mentioned on another comment that immigration was in fact an issue in the referendum.

    Labour in particular played the race card, by constantly mentioning foreigners, and the media storm over how many immigrants Scotland would need to pay for pensions.

    The SNP policy is that we would have a needs based immigration policy, but the message put out by BT, by an effective whispering campaign, was that Scotland would have uncontrolled immigration, and would end up with similar problems as England’s Metropolitan Cities.

    I saw people saying on FB that ‘uncontrolled immigration, was the reason that they did not vote yes, so the Labour lies did effect the vote.

    It was ‘project fear’ and no fear story went by without BT using it to good effect.

  107. yesindyref2 says:

    Interesting reading comments that the results are depressing. I think it goes back to Rev’s poll September a year ago, when people were surprised Scotland wasn’t as socialist as people thought. Well, I wasn’t, I heard it all the time from people, and read the comments too in forums.

    Scotland is conservative with both little and big C, far more than the election results for the Tories show. I’d put the figure at 30% upwards. It also show where the Indy campaign went wrong – it didn’t address the aspirations of the conservatives, or wannabee conservatives.

    I tried in postings to point out that after Indy the Conservative party itself in Scotland could reinvent itself, move away from actually toxic policies from Westminster and get more votes. I had some success, but I was practically a lone voice, apart from the likes of Wealthy Nation (?).

    Next ref needs to be different. In the event according to Ashcroft, 4% of Tory voters voted YES, whereas I think it should have been as high as the other party voters, as much as 40%.

    In 2010, 412,000 voted Tory, 4% is 17,000. 40% would have been 170,000, and that figure has to be multiplied up by the relative turnouts, 85% for Ref, 65% 2010 – giving 220,000. As well as the actual Tory voters there’s the conservative contingent of the SNP. 14% voted NO. 250,000 switching from NO to YES, well, we’re Independent.

    Next Ref, as well as attracting Labour voters, the campaign has to be open to the aspirational conservative voters. Perhaps last time that wasn’t possible because of the concentration on Labour voters, but it’s a neccessity next time. And 3% corporation tax cut – doesn’t cut it!

  108. Craig P says:

    So it turns out that people who absorb BBC News are frightened.

    Want independence? Work out how to overwhelm the effect of BBC news.

    As BBC news is instrumental in shaping our attitudes.

    BBC is the main impediment to independence, not Daily Record, not Murphy, not common sense.

    (As common sense is a function of what BBC says.)

  109. red sunset says:

    Craig P says :
    Spot on that man !
    One reason and one reason alone why the Referendum was lost – the BBC.
    One fear and one fear alone for the GE2015 – the BBC.

  110. Chic McGregor says:

    Might be an idea to put some of these poll questions in a section. Comparison between ‘general public’ and Wings visitors could be informative.

  111. Taranaich says:

    I tried in postings to point out that after Indy the Conservative party itself in Scotland could reinvent itself, move away from actually toxic policies from Westminster and get more votes. I had some success, but I was practically a lone voice, apart from the likes of Wealthy Nation (?).

    Next ref needs to be different. In the event according to Ashcroft, 4% of Tory voters voted YES, whereas I think it should have been as high as the other party voters, as much as 40%.

    This is something that concerns me too, though I don’t understand how Tory voters could vote for Conservatives – not because of their politics, but because of their sheer, mind-blowing incompetence. An independent Scotland could end up with a Tory party that has right-wing policies, yet doesn’t engage in the same catastrophic ruin we’ve seen from the UK party over the decades.

    People often say the Labour party lost its way: the same is true of the Conservative party, too. No way would the Conservatives of yesteryear dismantle the NHS with the glee we’re seeing today.

  112. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Taranaich –

    ‘No way would the Conservatives of yesteryear dismantle the NHS with the glee we’re seeing today.’

    Re ‘yesteryear’ – how far back is that? Don’t you think Thatcher and her flock of gimps would’ve sold every sodding thing if they’d thought they could get away with it?

  113. Rock says:

    “The old were predictably far more hawkish than the young.”

    As I have been saying since the referendum result, the 75% of the elderly who voted No did so because they are British nationalists proud of the British Empire.

    They were not frightened – they positively voted No and will remain unionists to their dying days.

    The Yes movement should not waste their time and money on them – they are a completely lost cause.

    I doubt we will get any closer to independence for at least a generation. Yet again Alex was right to rule out another referendum for a generation.

    A majority is in favour of nuclear weapons and the royal family. God, if you exist, help us.

  114. Fireproofjim says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    I think Taranaich is referring to the “One Nation Conservatism” of the fifties/ sixties with the likes of Harold MacMillan and Ian Macleod.
    They built more council houses than anyone before or since and supported the NHS at all times.
    They had a rather patronising attitude, but we’re a long way from the Thatcher or Cameron governments.

  115. Cyborgnat says:

    From the results I have read so far the game’s not worth the candle and I suggest in reply to those who spoke of a Scottish National Anthem earlier this week that they look up the more vulgar renditions of La Donna È Mobile as I believe, with regret, it would be best suited to Scotland

  116. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @fireproofjim –

    Just to be clear – I’m not having a go at Taranaich. I’m a big fan of the man’s writing and would love to meet him some day. I’m just curious as to where he draws lines between various generations of Scottish Tories – I suspect we all know friends and/or relatives who voted Tory back in the 80’s and 90’s, but weren’t too keen on telling anyone.

  117. Adam Jeal says:

    This is profoundly depressing, and further evidence that we need shot of the BBC and most of the remaining MSM.

    We are supposed to be the most educated western nation.

    I think it’s probably time to advocate the teaching of more media literacy & critical thought.

    The lack of this is a global problem, but on the evidence of this sample, by god do we need it right here and right now!

  118. hetty says:

    Indeed this is depressing, I would have hoped at least in Scotland, that people would be a tad more empathetic with poor, sick and disabled who are unfortunately at the hands of the dwp uk gov and living a hell.

    We were summoned to an Atos ‘interview’ for my son who has complex learning disabilities this week, in fact I find nyself on suicide watch at times. He was made to feel ‘at ease’ at first, then the repeated questions about things so not relevant to his claim, it was like an interrogation! We saw a young woman walk out, we noted, later, that she had an anazing aura about her, but, she was clearly in agony! Oh my god.

    My sister tells me she knows of someone attending workfare in NE Engerland, who told her that a guy with no legs, yes, no legs, was told by dwp, to attend workfare, daily 9-2pm, as he can ‘do a sitting down job’. The cruelty and humiliation is surely unprecedented, just fkg sickening, please tell me that folks really do not think this acceptable in 2015…

  119. hetty says:

    sorry typos, stupid predictive thing I cannot work out how to change…
    nite all.

  120. arranc says:

    have been fighting against triden{polaris}since 1959 do not need it have worked till i was 70 claimed nowt but my family allowance

  121. Chic McGregor says:

    There is not too many people in Scotland. immigrants or otherwise.

    There is too many people in England by any normal metric of available resource to population size. But immigrants can only at most represent a tiny proportion of that over population problem. If all immigrants were removed, England would still be over populated and probably even worse off in terms of productive demography.

  122. Tim says:

    Hetty, with regard to ATOS, and the guy with no legs, we have ex-servicemen with no legs who are DESPARATE to work, so why can this guy not do a job from a wheelchair?
    After all wouldn’t that help him to feel more self worth?
    Don’t try to scapegoat ATOS for SOME peoples reluctance to work!

  123. bowanarrow says:

    I think you have been talking to the wrong people rev.

  124. arthur thomson says:

    Yes the results are shocking and make me angry. There IS more enlightenment I would have thought as a result of the Ref and the task of the Yes movement is to build on this. We have to challenge the basis for the attitudes expressed. We have to educate our young people and our fellow citizens to think. We have to be glad that the SNP is at the forefront of working for change. Scots must fight forever to create a better Scotland. We cannot expect that the real forces of darkness will just roll over in May, we will have to fight on and on and on. The poor and vulnerable in Scotland are depending on us to fight their fight. Let’s fight at every turn. Let’s grind the evil down. I recall the courage and image of those two young lassies in George Square and I KNOW we can do it.

  125. Alan H says:

    I have lived in both England and Scotland and see little difference in social attitudes.

    The Queen ,trident,unemployment are all issues that divide opinion in houses and towns, but not UK countries.

    Immigration

    I live in Peterborough, we are building entire immigrant schools. No English kids in classes of 30. Yet the poll suggests equal parity with English attitudes and ours

    Would most Scots welcome such schools as the English have? We’d be in uproar, the poll suggests we are in uproar now and thats WITHOUT a similar problem.



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