The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland

The resource collective

Posted on March 02, 2016 by


days remaining. Total at 9am today: £80,273 (Last 24 hours: £3,348)

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  1. 02 03 16 10:43

    The resource collective | Speymouth

376 to “The resource collective”

  1. Iain says:

    Brilliant, that Trumps the feeble yoons.

  2. winifred mccartney says:

    Wonderful – well done to all – remember that holiday after 23 June please – you deserve every penny.

  3. Capella says:

    We really do want you to carry on providing the excellent politics and news analysis. Another Wee Blue Book would be great as well when there is a referendum in the air.

    The Reference section is also good if a little scattered. Extra help with restructuring it might be useful?

    Postcards with the web address and a short but sweet message?

  4. bobajock says:

    We know you care, so we care.

  5. Returnofthemac says:

    Excellent. £56,640. Only 29 days remaining.

  6. Tried to pay by paypal twice and failed the form. It just won’t move on.

  7. Capella says:

    Paypal worked OK for me.
    Sadly, I ordered a vile cybernat bag as a perk so can’t now contribute to the gold wings for the star commenteers. There’s always summat!
    Happily, the total is soaraway.

  8. boris says:

    Nice to see the total increasing. Made my contribution yesterday.

  9. Cuilean says:

    Don’t know where I’d be without my daily Wings addiction. Totally hooked.

    Please never stop from exposing their lies & cabalistic, belittling games, a la jakey’s spanner gang.

    You’re on to them. And when you’re on to them, we are all to them.

    JK and her MSM sycophants really, really hate that.

    That thought fills me with a warm glow. Wings’ body of investigative journalism is a priceless public service to Scotland – in this ‘dark age’ of just a few billionaires controlling MSM and thereby distorting the truth to their own ends, with the complicit support of BBC Scotland.

    Dig deep. Where would Scotland and its future be, without Wings to hold them accountable?

    “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” (“Who watches the watchers”)?

    Wings does.

  10. Fred says:

    Donald, I also,had a problem with the link but clicked the “Donate” thingmy above the Wee Blue Book advert, whiched worked fine. Says browser out of date but browser says it’s no. Bit like masel really! 🙂

  11. Kenny says:

    I always say a Wee Silver Book is vital for making inroads in overturning the NO vote among our elder Scots.

    I think it needs to be done before IndyRef2:

    1. Older people will be bombarded by Project Fear in IndyRef2. But if you can get in first and open their eyes, they might not take kindly to Jackie Bird telling them their pensions are only safe with Boris and Osborne.

    2. IndyRef2 might only be called when there IS sufficient support among all age groups, so converting the elder voters is a preliminary to getting another vote.

    3. IndyRef2 might be the rubber-stamp on indy, rather than the actual process or event which GIVES us indy.

    So let’s be having a Wee Silver Book and we can all get out and deliver them.

  12. gus1940 says:

    I originally tried to donate thru Paypal while using Explorer under XP Pro.

    Paypal refused to play ball as my browser ‘was out of date’.

    Switching to Chrome Paypal was quite happy to process my donation.

  13. Puzzled Puss says:

    Many thanks for all your hard work. Reading ‘Wings’ enlightens and invigorates, even on the darkest days.

  14. galamcennalath says:

    Kenny says:

    “converting the elder voters”

    It does concern me that ‘Project Better Scotland’ is making far slower progress among older people. This set of figure is nothing short of astonishing … Recent TNS poll …

    Consitutuency vote – Under 65
    SNP 69%
    Lab 17%
    Con 8%
    Lib 4%

    Consitutuency vote – Over 65
    SNP 34%
    Lab 32%
    Con 28%
    Lib 4 3%

    We probably know why. Britishness stronger. Voting for ‘old’ parties because of nostalgia. News from EBC and colonial media. Lack of exposure no new media.

    The message has to be spread amongst over the 65s that their perceived UKOK no longer exists.

    The best people to do this conversion are other over 65s with a face to face message that an alternative Scotland is better of everyone.

    The SNP need to do their bit by proposing than an Indy Scotland should have a state pension comparable to the best in Europe. If other nations can afford it, then so can Scotland.

  15. galamcennalath says:

    Kenny says:

    “Wee Silver Book”

    … Just realised you meant ‘silver’, as in specifically targeting the elderly. Good idea, because if we can swing the older voter too, then Indy is a done deal!

  16. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re-edumicate the over 65s to think past the ‘cargo’ of their British identity?


    I’ll get ma coat… 🙂

  17. Capella says:

    O/T noticed a discussion on RS about rugby and it’s effect on health. There’s an interesting TED talk by Dr Daniel Amen on brain damage imaging and the effect of mild trauma on mental and physical health. 14 mins.

  18. Proud Cybernat says:


    Radio 2 (Vine Show) just now. Talking about retirement age which is being reviewed today by HMG as per 5 year review. Looking like if your are currently under 55 (born after 1961) you could be working into your 70s. EVEN in Scotland where the life expectancy is lower than rUK, and in some cases, (e.g. east end of Glasgow) is LOWER than the retirement age. So, many people in the east end of Glasgow pay their dues all their life to gain no benefit from it because they’ll be dead before retirement age. And if it goes up to 70 then many more of us here in Scotland (compared to rUK) will never reach retirement age.

    Thank you Scot buts.

    Surely an independent Scotland could have better and fairer pension provision for its elederly.

  19. ScottieDog says:


    The common view I hear held many many elder Tory voters is that we have a something for nothing culture now and that they worked hard all their lives. They completely ignore the fact that quality jobs aren’t there now. “If you work hard you’ll get your reward” is their mantra

    Then I point them at the following graphic about ‘something for nothing’

    It shows the post war spending as a ratio to GDP. Many ‘jobs for life’ private and public sector were created off the back of this post war spending. Enter Milton Friedman in the 70s and all that changed. ‘The economy is like a household’ is the belief.
    The result is this situation we have now.

    So the elder Tory argument falls apart.

  20. john-d says:

    £57 322 and counting Lovely.

  21. Bob Mack says:


    Yes ,read this earlier,and could feel my eyes moisten. What a horrible way for anyone to be treated.

    I used to deal with lots of young men with PTSD, trying to adapt to civvy life. Normally they would have been seen at Hollybush which specialises in veterans,but often the waiting list was too long so they were referred to the routine NHS services by their GP.

    No one can envisage the things they have seen and endured. It is horrific ,but glorified by the media and the Ceremonial presentations of medals etc They are
    scarred for life in our service and not just physically.This particular case is an example of what happens to brave servicemen and women when the trumpets fade.

  22. David Mooney says:

    The best way to persuade the over 65’s is – to use Indy supporters from their own generation to educate, inform and debunk the smears and fears BT will regurgitate in the event of Indyref2. A wee silver book would be a very useful tool to help the older generation understand that, armageddon would not occur and their pensions are more likely to be safe if we leave this corrupt union.

    My mother who is 80 in a few months. Was a life long labour voter. She has known my pro indy views since I was 16 (4 decades). A year or so before the 2014 referendum (prompted by a friend in her church group), she started asking questions about what would happen if Scotland voted for Independence.

    I asked her what was it that had changed her stance, She replied her friend (5 years older) had pointed out the lies and misinformation the EBC where constantly bombarding us with from Pacific Quay. She had started having doubts when she became aware of the incompetence of the previous Labour Westminster government.

    So at the age of 78 my mother changed her lifelong held views and embraced independence as the only answer. After the referendum was lost she joined the SNP.

  23. Craig Murray says:


    Then again, the recent cold snap will help.

    I’ll get my coat…

  24. Alison Rollo says:

    Had no problem paying with ‘card’ option. Also re Silver Book — great idea! However SNP should make a statement that 65 will always be the max retirement age and a guarantee that Scotland will peg pensions at the highest level in the EU. Never have a problem with the elderly vote again!!!!

  25. Macart says:

    @Bob Mack

    Been a while since I’ve felt so upset Bob. Don’t even trust myself to say anymore. Better if folks read it for themselves.

  26. CameronB Brodie says:

    Thank for that TED talk. I could say lots but it’s probably best not to, though I reckon I’m living proof that Dr Daniel Amen is bang on the money.

  27. mogabee says:

    Bob Mack

    Is Hollybush still open? My sister worked there for a while.

  28. Bob Mack says:

    I have serious doubts about whether some people could ever change. Last week I visited two elderly aunts, both originally from Singapore but who held Dutch passports. They were there as children during the Japanese occupation but returned to the UK after the war.

    The conversation took an unexpected twist when I mentioned Donald Trump. It transpires they admire him and his views on immigrants and a whole raft of other topics. I listened dumfounded as these two elderly ladies expressed views not uncommon in Mein Kampf. I had never spoken to them before about politics.

    I have to admit a degree of sadness at this revelation. They are proper,prim,and have manners which are beyond reproach in everyday life. Behind the facade however
    there lurks a very different beast altogether.Funny old world.

  29. Bob Mack says:


    Yes, Hollybush is still open and still busy.

    They have a 25 bed unit for inpatient services

  30. gordoz says:

    @ Bob Mack

    Jonnie foreigner…what?? ?

  31. Another Union Dividend says:

    O / T Liked these comments on Council Tax reform.

    This progressive council tax reform could see £100m a year raised for education, with those in top 25% of homes paying more but Councils limited to a 3% increase.

    Bands A-D unaffected. When Labour was in power – 1999 to 2007 – Band D Council Tax increased by £280 or 31% in Edinburgh.

    A tax rise that doesn’t affect those at the bottom in the first place seems a better plan than one that needs a convoluted “rebate”.

    Scottish Government will also consult on allowing a tax on vacant and derelict land to reduce land banking and increase supply of homes.

    Targeted relief will protect low income families in top band homes, while increase in child allowance will benefit 77,000 households

    Last November in House of Commons, SNP alone voted to devolve tax credits to Scotland – 56 against 477 as Labour supported Tories yet demand Scottish Government reverse Tory cuts.

  32. galamcennalath says:

    Another Union Dividend says:

    “Last November in House of Commons, SNP alone voted to devolve tax credits to Scotland – 56 against 477 as Labour supported Tories ”

    They should never be allowed to forget all the amendments which Scotland’s duly elected representatives asked for, but were thrown out by EVSL!

    They came staggering back into the chamber without even knowing nor understanding what they were voting for. An undemocratic disgrace.

    Is there a list anywhere of what all was rejected? And by whom, Con or Con+Lab? It would be a handy resource.

  33. MJT says:


    Thanks for sharing that. It’s heartbreaking what some good folks go through, how folks suffer for no fault of their own.

    It would be great if Wings could produce some ‘literature’ aimed at older folks. And, yes, I think the SNP should do the same. So much of our struggle is about getting information to people. Giving people the chance to make a more informed decision from a more informed position.

    I also think that the people best suited to ‘guiding’ or enlightening them are those os a similar age. That and their Yes voting relatives and loved ones. Softly softly.

    Of course we can’t win everyone over. I’ve been canvassing in and around Ibrox, and many of the older folks whose doors we chap on (as well as those of all ages) look at you with hard, stony or vacant stares. Mind’s made up…but what’s in their minds? I wish we had better information we could give them on the doorstep, but I also wonder about the right approach.

  34. Flower of Scotland says:

    Well done Wingers! We just couldn’t do without the Rev.s blog. It keeps me sane and because I don’t watch or listen to State Propaganda TV and radio I can get my news here.

    I also share lots of links that Wingers provide and use them in online debates.

    I hope Robert Peffers will forgive me for taking a perk this time. I’ve never taken one before. His comments are some of the best and hope that he will get a gold badge too.

  35. Flower of Scotland says:

    It’s a bit annoying at times to be told that the majority of over 65.s voted no and are your typical Britnats.

    That’s not my experience, when leafleting and canvassing for the SNP. The majority trudging the streets and putting in the hard ground work are these people, the over 55,s some well into 70 and 80s.

    People on here should know better!

  36. Arbroath1320 says:

    Absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with the fundraiser. 😀

    Our Battle bus has just returned from the graphics shop all “Battled Up!” 🙂

    Look out poisoned dwarf and all yer wee Tory mates … WE are coming for YOU! 😀

  37. John Edgar says:

    England and a divided nation:It is not often that the Telegraph has a perceptive, balanced, focused and grounded article re constitutional matters relating to England and English identity. (honest!) Today, March 2, Philip Johnston no idea who he is) points out an English political identity crisis (nothing to do with anthems ) due to the perceived “imbalance of the country’s constitutional arrangements” due to the extra powers granted to Holyrood. It is worth a read – I do not normally recommend the telegraph, but the article highlights possible crises in the English psyche if England and/or more likely Tory England + UKIP votes No and the rest of the nations in the UK vote Yes an,d as a result, England has to remain in the EU since the combined UK has voted YES! Imagine Cameron having to sell that to the Tory shires! I replied to the Telegraph on this (it may not be published) suggesting that with EVEL all England has to do is to vote to leave the UK. Problem solved. Simple. No UK and no EU for them.

  38. Bob Mack says:

    @Flower of Scotland,

    It may well not be your experience,but it is fact. The Union was preserved by the elderly vote.There is no other way round that fact.

    As I described about my elderly relatives,they can be delightful company face to face,but may hold very different views in private.

  39. call me dave says:

    Mr Cameron, do you agree that…? But YES is the hardest word!

  40. MJT says:

    @Flower of Scotland

    I know on occasion there have been odd posts that have tarred all over 50’s or 60’s with the same Yoon brush but those are the minority. The vast majority of activists know that there are legions of older folks doing amazing work in the trenches, on blogs and so forth.

    But, we have to address the stats, the numbers, at some point in some ways that are useful to the cause. And it’s true we have to be careful not to piss off the people who are on our side, who are fighting the fight, day in day out, who might be in and around retirement age.

    But there are a lot of folks who worry about their pensions, who worry we might be attacked by terrorists, or bombed by…I dunno, people with bombs who come from far off lands…or that gaining independence would bring about the end of days; a wheen of catastrophies we’d be ill equipped to deal with.

  41. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 2 March, 2016 at 12:02 pm:

    “Good idea, because if we can swing the older voter too, then Indy is a done deal!”

    May I ask you a couple of questions, galamcennalath?

    On what hard evidence do you base your belief that the older generation are lagging behind in supporting indy?

    It wouldn’t be evidence provided by the, Oh! So honest, news broadcasters and the MSM would it?

    See here’s a thing, I’m an old guy. For many years now I have either told those carrying out surveys, who asked my opinions, to mind there own bloody business as I intend to mind mine.

    Then, again, if I did gave answers they were often false answers that I figured that they really didn’t want to hear.

    Of later years I’ve been disabled and thus not been out and about the streets so much. Thus been far less likely to have been apprehended by pollsters.

    I imagine I’m fairly representative of the older, and often more disabled or less healthy segment of the population who are far more likely to tell the pollsters where to go.

    I’ve paid little heed to opinion polls for a lot of years now as they are mainly fixed before they start.

  42. Proud Cybernat says:

    Cameron: SNP should stop talking about grievances and get on with government.” (The Herald)

    So, ‘Subsidy Junky Scots’ is not a grievance? (Solution: cut Barnett). West Lothian Question is not a grievance? (Solution: EVEL). The EU is taking over our ‘country’. Solution (have and EU IN/OUT referendum).

    Of course these are not grievances because WM has the power to ‘fix it’, to come up with solutions. Scotland just has to accept it.

    Well, as far as the present constitutional settlement goes, I, and many like me, asre still waiting for the Yoons to deliver on THEIR pre-referendum promise of The Vow. Put up then–AND ONLY THEN–will we shut up.

    Ah’ll give yae grievance, Cameron ya pig-fancying walloper.

  43. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 2 March, 2016 at 12:31 pm:

    “Looking like if your are currently under 55 (born after 1961) you could be working into your 70s. EVEN in Scotland where the life expectancy is lower than rUK, and in some cases, (e.g. east end of Glasgow) is LOWER than the retirement age.”

    When I worked at Rosyth Dockyard the pension age was 65 and we had a situation that we shop stewards fought against for many years. The Dockyard covered a large area and the clocking in points were situated all over the yard.

    Thus a worker at the furthest from the main gate clocking hut had a long hurried very brisk walk to get to either the main gate or the internal train station. In both cases when they reached their destination they had to negotiate a steep stair over a footbridge. The bus stance was well above the dockyard level and the train platform on the other side of of the train line.

    We called those two bridges, “Government Pension Savers”. It took years to get a five minute walking time added to the furthest clocking out points and many more to get the Bus stance down to Dockyard level.

    I cannot remember a single year when at least one person died of a heart attack on those bridges.

    Just found an SNP card behind the door. From Our beloved leader. Ms Sturgeon tells me that the SNP SG has pumped an extra £500 million into the SNHS, (a total £13 Billion). Staffing is up by 10,600. too. Add that to the stone cold facts that Scotland’s A&E delivers the best and fastes service in the whole UK.

    So just where is all this SNP SNHS BAAAAAD bleating coming from? The MSM and tyhe Unionists wouldn’t be telling Scots lies would they? or would they?

  44. Iain More says:

    Off topic.

    Today I was glad of the SNHS. I got straight through on the phone as well.

    The mither had a fall today. The ambulance arrived in just 15 minutes and the paramedics took excellent care of her. She is now snoozing off the clatter she got.

    I have to say this even though the quizzer probably doesn’t look at this blog. GIRUY Eleanor Bradford!

    Oh and I hope those heilan butt and ben holiday hames on Speyside get well tanked by the SNPs proposed progressive Council Tax changes.

  45. Returnofthemac says:

    galamcennalath and Kenny both banging on about “the older voter”I am an older voter, my wife is an older voter my friends (who are still alive) are older voters all vote SNP. I agree that some work has to be done with those who remain unconvinced about Independence not all are octogenarians.


  46. John says: Off topic Please sign people , we need this , lets see if we can get a better Scottish news program up and running in Scotland instead of the daily drivel we get from our so called journalists .

  47. Bob Mack says:

    @Iain More,

    Hope your mum is OK mate. I have no doubt she will get good care.

  48. Robert Peffers says:

    @Macart says: 2 March, 2016 at 12:38 pm:

    “Worth reading and worth getting angry about.

    Aye! Macart, and angry I am. It was always thus for the UK forces.

    I give you, “Tommy”, By Rudyard Kipling.

    … Tommy

    I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
    The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
    The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
    O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
    But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
    But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
    But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
    The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
    O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.

    Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
    An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
    Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
    But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
    While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
    But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
    There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
    O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.

    You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
    We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
    But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
    An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
    An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

  49. Morgatron says:

    Stu, miss the clink of pounds in a tin. Donated and heres to a wonderful 2016 with wings. Andy

  50. Macart says:

    @Robert Peffers

    They have the bare faced cheek to talk of covenants with the armed services Robert.

    Like they understand the meaning of the word.

    Disgusted and frustrated. The sooner we’re done with their system the better.

  51. Fireproofjim says:

    Robert Peffers @3.08
    Hi, Robert,
    As a fellow oldie (77), I am afraid I have to confirm that in my experience, from canvassing and leafleting, a majority of the 65+ generation are of a Unionist persuasion. (I agree with the polls)
    It gets very frustrating talking to them on the merits of independence, but most have a fixed mindset that they are British, won the war, delivered the NHS and so on.
    Anything that upsets that long-ingrained pattern is difficult for them to accept, and is often expressed by lashing out verbally as in “I hate that Alex Salmond/ Nicola Sturgeon” without any really sensible reason. It is almost like a fervent religious belief and is equally difficult to change.
    However that demographic is dying off and Independence appears inevitable as younger voters are overwhelmingly in favour.
    Just hope I don’t die off before then!

  52. Nana says:

    For anyone who missed Alex Salmond on lbc this afternoon.

  53. Gary45% says:

    @Iain More, Like already said . Hope your mums ok.

  54. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    “I have either told those carrying out surveys, who asked my opinions, to mind there own bloody business”

    The raw data which is the basis for the discussions people have been having is here…

    You are correct that older people are more likely to refuse to answer. 8% in this survey which is two to three times younger people.

    However, 17% of 65+ said they would vote Tory, and 14% of 55+ would vote Tory, as opposed to just 7% of the entire sample. (This is raw and not adjusted for don’t knows, refused, won’t vote)

    Only a tiny percentage of Tories voted Yes, obviously.

    There are two possibilities…

    Older people are TWICE as likely to vote Tory, and therefore be pro-Union


    A substantial number of older pro-Indy supporters lie, and pretend to be Tory voters. I have certainly heard of shy Tories who pretend to NOT be Tories for pollsters. I have never heard of substantial numbers of people pretending to be Tory.

    The same analysis could be made for Labour, with the effect less prominent, and the correlation with Indy support weaker. The same trends as above can be clearly seen though.

  55. Marie Clark says:

    Iain More, hope your mum will be fine and well soon.

    O/T To all the wingers who helped me out last night with the links to council reserves. Son has calmed doon and read all the links, sends thanks to all. The even better news is the union has reported back after meetings with the cooncil, and he and his workmates will not have to reapply for their own jobs at a lot less money. Result.

    Thank you again for all your help folks.

  56. Smallaxe says:

    @ Robert Peffers

    I too am a man of advancing years and suffering from terminal cancer,I do not put any faith in polls either,I put my faith in votes.I may not live to see Scotland free but I sure as hell want it for my grandchildren and their offspring.

    Not all older people voted NO and a lot of us will vote SNP,not just for us but those who come after us. SNPx2

  57. Grouse Beater says:

    Some EU ammunition here:

  58. Nana says:

    Livestream tonight 9pm

    Chris Graham discusses his transformation of No to Yes

  59. call me dave says:

    @Macart says:
    2 March, 2016 at 12:38 pm

    Worth reading and worth getting angry about.
    Geez! Your right that’s an appalling series of events.

    Tommy Atkins indeed. 🙁

  60. gerry parker says:

    Robert & Macart.

    Some things never change

  61. louis.b.argyll says:

    Kenny says:
    2 March, 2016 at 11:34 am
    I always say a Wee Silver Book is vital for making inroads in overturning the NO vote among our elder Scots.

    Aye but without WWII in its title,.it’s doomed.

  62. mumsyhugs says:

    Smallaxe @ 6.46

    In tears reading your post XXX what a wonderful legacy to leave for the young folks coming up in the future – the prospect of an independent country XXX SNP x 2 – all my love to you and yours!

  63. louis.b.argyll says:

    It escapes too many,

  64. Nana says:


  65. mealer says:

    If we have less support among the older generation we’ll have to work harder to convince them.Not girn about them.We’ll not get them all,but we can get more of them.Put in a bit of time and effort.Listen to them.Chat to them.

  66. Macart says:


    Well said and respect sir.

  67. carjamtic says:

    I came to wings,a few years ago,(not at the beginning),I come everyday now,multiple visits.

    The reason ? Apart from the Rev.
    I am consistently blown away by the knowledge and passion of the posters.

    I rarely leave without learning something,on occasion,get angry,annoyed,pleased,now and again,split my sides with laughter.

    Other times,like today I get really,really angry,reading about the atrocious treatment of a young man who’s boots they are not fit to lace,grrr,just makes more determined to leave these sad UKOK users/abusers and their Scottish bagmen/cheerleaders/defenders behind,the UK is NOT OK !

    I doff my hat to the older posters,don’t go anywhere,we need you more than ever,not now,we’re nearly there,(you know who you are).

    #experience #knowledge #educate #inspire #respect……

    Many Many Thanks….a grateful winger 🙂

  68. Nana says:

    Strange-death-labour-Scotland – Tom Devine

  69. Petra says:

    @ Macart says at 12:38 pm …. ”Worth reading and worth getting angry about.”

    What a TRULY heartbreaking story Macart. ‘Angry’ doesn’t even begin to describe how I feel reading this tonight.

    I know we’re fund raising for Wings and I’ll be donating again before the months out but couldn’t we all pull together on here and try to do something for this guy?

  70. Cuilean says:

    O/T Stu was looking on twitter for Question Time stats since the General Election on SNP & UKIP appearances which seemed to be evens stevens even tho’ UKIP have 1 MP and SNP have 56 MPs. It’s roughly a dozen each with SNP ahead by one or two appearances more than UKIP.

    But then I thought, well the Liberal Democrats used to have roughly the same number of MPs as the SNP BEFORE the General Election last year, so I wondered, how many Liberal Democrat appearances were there on Question Time when they had 57 MPs.

    The figures are startling.

    Starting from January 2014 to 30 April 2015 the appearance tallies for each lesser party ON QT are as follows (53 shows wherein both Tories & Labour each made 53 appearances each week):

    Liberal Democrats – 57 MPs 38 Appearances
    UKIP – 1 MP from Aug ’14 only 17 Appearances
    SNP – 6 MPs 8 Appearances
    Greens – 0 MPs 6 Appearances
    Plaid – 3 MPs 4 Appearances
    Respect – 1 MP 3 Appearances

    Despite being plugged 38 times the Lib Dems only returned 8 MPs.
    No change for UKIP MPs despite being plugged quite blatantly.
    SNP of course made history despite QT’s cold shoulder.
    Greens & Plaid no change either re MP numbers.
    And despite 3 appearances George Galloway’s Respect party is history.

    My conclusion: QT is blatantly biased against the SNP and blatantly biased in favour of UKIP.

    However, despite their best efforts, Question (Up the British Army) Time has no effect on Scots voters whatsoever.

    But it may significantly help sway England to vote UKIP & maximise the success of the EU Leave vote in June 2016.

    I think we all knew this before my research, so there are a few hours of my life I will never get back.

  71. Rock says:

    Bob Mack,

    “I have serious doubts about whether some people could ever change.”

    Bob Mack,

    “It may well not be your experience,but it is fact. The Union was preserved by the elderly vote.There is no other way round that fact.”

    The vast majority of the 70% of the elderly who voted No are diehard British nationalists who will never change.

    They are a lost cause and not a single penny should be spent on them next time.

    The vast majority of the 30% of the elderly who voted Yes are diehard independence supporters.

    They were convinced long before many of us were born and don’t need any convincing.

  72. yesindyref2 says:

    Re council tax, I think this is maybe the SNP taking some reltively small corrective measures before the Holyrood dissolution, and no government policy can be made, just party politcy.

    The meat on that for me is the income tax sharing as perhaps that’s a step on the way to reforming council tax, not in one bold and risly move, but in a suck it and see small steps way. Kind of similar to the SG using the limited tax powers, the start of an inevitable move towards full autonomy.

    A relatively small element of land reform in this as well, and for me that can’t be done in a sudden fashion either. As well as the rich absent landowners, there are some very symbiotic and not parasitical ones who work well with local communities. I’ve seen it. Reformers need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water!

  73. Cuilean says:

    Addendum Greens 1 MP – apologies, Natalie Wood.

  74. Cuilean says:

    too uch wine – bennett


  75. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Cuilean –

    Kudos for doing that – some stats speak volumes eh?

  76. Smallaxe says:

    @macart & mumsyhugs

    Thank you for your compassion & kindness,I promise I will fight until my last breath until our beautiful country is free from the yoke of Westminster and its “legal gangsters.

    Peace to all

  77. ArtyHetty says:

    Regards council tax, the no voting, well offs, will no longer be able to claim that the Scotgov refuse to tax the better off. Lefty Graun readers, friends who say they would be ‘happy to pay more, to pay for services etc’.
    Be interesting to know what they are saying now, I do hope they are happy with the rise in their C Tax, seems fair.

  78. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s the spirit! It’s us or them, and the two should never mix or talk to each other. We’ll have referendum after referendum and get 45% YES every time, we are the 45! Well done! Keep up the good work! Who cares about Independence, it’s the 45, right?

  79. call me dave says:


    I was looking at a link earlier from ‘jerry parker’ (thanks) and my eye caught this which I had never seen.

    A BBC programme full of old kicked out labour hacks ( too many to name) coming to terms with the GE 2015 and Jackie Bird as a bonus.

    Worth a look and I almost (almost) felt sorry for I Gray and with Zezia appearing at the end, little did they know then what we know now,she was going to be another selection failure. 🙂

    Give it a go some of you if only to refresh your memory about how awful they all were/are.
    The Fall of Scottish Labour – BBC Scotland documentary 22nd June 2015

  80. heedtracker says:

    I think we all knew this before my research, so there are a few hours of my life I will never get back.

    It sure is an eye opener though. The majority hard core conservative domination of shows like Question Time probably reflect exactly the politics of the same shows producers and crews. Its a tory world.

    The great Ian Murray was on Ligger Neil’s private vote tory Daily Politics show today mouthing Lab gibberish as per and the camera man was really struggling to make Murray not look like a right creep, not that he is ofcourse. He’s probably a really lovely guy, who’d make a terrifying Bond villain, “talk Mr Salmond, no, I want to fry your nads with this UKOK laser”

    Actually that reminds me, they had a Trump for Prez thing on Ligger’s Daily Politics show at lunchtime, with a young looking far right American women who the BBC really like. Anyway at the end of the show, Ligger asked all the guests if they thought Trump could win, but he left poor old Ian Murray. Cant think why.

  81. Onwards says:

    “The vast majority of the 70% of the elderly who voted No are diehard British nationalists who will never change.”

    TNS POLL – Over 65
    SNP 34%
    Lab 32%
    Con 28%
    Lib 4 3%

    That might be true of the current generation when it comes to independence but on the other hand, going by that latest poll, the SNP are still in the lead (narrowly) when it comes to Holyrood.

    The SNP treats pensioners well:

    Free personal care at ever increasing costs.
    Free bus passes
    Free prescriptions – more likely to be used by the elderly.
    And now tax relief for low income households staying in a big house – of which a high number are pensioners for whom it is impractical to move.

    It’s probably true that some old folks are stuck in their ways, but what I also reckon is that the excessively one-sided positive campaign for independence just didn’t work with them.
    Scots pensioners are cynical by nature and like nothing more than a good moan. Especially old women when they get together. They are also far more susceptible to scaremongering and more likely to still get their news from the traditional media.

    A more balanced approach is needed for pensioners next time.
    Give them something to complain and fear regarding the Tories in Westminster.

  82. Sinky says:

    Cuilean says: @ 9.28 PM Interesting comparison with when Lib Dems were third party at Westminster with similar number of seats.

    The political make up on BBC Question Time is another reason why we need a Scottish Six, Scottish Channel and Scottish question Time.

    It is a democratic deficit that mitigates against ALL indigenous Scottish political parties.

    BBC TV Question Time PANELLISTS SINCE May 2015 General Election
    AS at 2 March 2016 ( 32 programmes – Only 2 from Scotland)

    UKIP 13 panellists (seats at Westminster ONE) SNP 12 (seats 56/54)

    Graph should include UKIP MEP Patrick O’Flynn ON 14 JANUARY 2016

  83. Robert Peffers says:

    @MJT says: 2 March, 2016 at 2:53 pm:

    ” … But, we have to address the stats, the numbers, at some point in some ways that are useful to the cause.”

    And that, MJT, is where you, and they, are probably making a mistake. You believe the stats and the fact is the stats can be, and in my opinion are, misleading.

    Here’s how. Who is it that is compiling those stats and from what data are they drawing their conclusions? The answer would seem to be the various pollsters. I could be wrong but I don’t think there is a published complete national database of how each age group actually voted.

    The figures would seem to originate with the various polling companies and, if so, they cannot be correct in anything other than in the people they surveyed.

    So consider this – some pollsters have a list of signed-up, and some even pay them, polled members. They thus can pick and choose known people to poll.

    Others use random telephone contacts – but how many younger folks have phone lines these days? They usually have mobiles glued to their lugs and the companies do not poll mobiles.

    Then we have on-line self chosen participants, for example do you imagine the readership of the Daily Mail who volunteer to take a newsprint, or even on-line, Daily Mail survey are unbiased?

    Then we have the knock-the door and ask to take survey lot- what age groups are most likely to be at home and who is most likely to be either at work during the day or out of the home of an evening.

    The overall picture is that most surveys will have an out of balance age demographic. Not to mention that many older folks might be more inclined to tell them where to stick their survey or tell them what they think they want to hear.

  84. ahundredthidiot says:

    scotsbob and firefroofjim

    I give the over 55’s (and pensioners in particular) a hard time for ‘us’ losing Indyref1.

    But make no bones about it, you fellas, and my parents, (who are in the same category – that so called 20% of pensioners) are the likes of us.

    I don’t sing FOS, not unless it is merited. like a funeral perhaps, certainly not a sporting event. At least not since 2014.

    But when I do hear, or on occasion sing, our National Anthem, I think of you – and my parents. And all of those brave people who are prepared to stick their wrinkly auld necks on the line. You are the likes of us. ‘When will we see their like again’ – We, the song, mean you.

    And I will be forever grateful. (despite my odd rant)

    A bird in a cage who flies out has the brightest wings.

  85. Sinky says:

    More On BBC Question Time panellists:

    Period Jan 14 to April 15

    UKIP (1 seat) appeared on 37.5% of all shows
    Lib Dems (57 MPs) appeared on 71.7% of all shows

    Period May 15 to March 16

    UKIP (1 seat) UP TO 40.6% appearances
    Third Party SNP 37.5% (half of what Lib Dems got)

  86. Rock says:


    “The SNP treats pensioners well”

    It treats them too well. That is why they voted No.

    The elderly British nationalists are getting the best of both worlds, while the rest of us suffer.

    Who would you spend scarce resources on?

    The folks whom RIC reached where others failed?

    Or those who intended to vote No, and voted No after wasting so much of your time?

    They will remain British nationalists to their dying days. Why waste resources trying unsuccessfully to convert them?

  87. heedtracker says:

    They will remain British nationalists to their dying days. Why waste resources trying unsuccessfully to convert them?

    Because all the myriad reasons for voting YES apply to every voter and all ages in Scotland Rock.

    Cool your jets dude.

  88. Rock says:


    That’s the spirit! It’s us or them, and the two should never mix or talk to each other. We’ll have referendum after referendum and get 45% YES every time, we are the 45! Well done! Keep up the good work! Who cares about Independence, it’s the 45, right?”

    No, as the elderly die out, the 45% Yes rises and the 55% No falls. It is as simple as that.


    “Consitutuency vote – Under 65
    SNP 69%

    Consitutuency vote – Over 65
    SNP 34%”


    “As a fellow oldie (77), I am afraid I have to confirm that in my experience, from canvassing and leafleting, a majority of the 65+ generation are of a Unionist persuasion. (I agree with the polls)
    It gets very frustrating talking to them on the merits of independence”

    “However that demographic is dying off and Independence appears inevitable as younger voters are overwhelmingly in favour.
    Just hope I don’t die off before then!”

  89. Robert Peffers says:

    @Fireproofjim says: 2 March, 2016 at 6:04 pm:

    “As a fellow oldie (77), I am afraid I have to confirm that in my experience, from canvassing and leafleting, a majority of the 65+ generation are of a Unionist persuasion”.

    Aw! Cummon! Fireproof Jim, do the sums.

    You say those in the 65+ generation claim they won the war. Really?

    Anyone who is 65 now would have been born in 1951 and the war in Europe ended in 1945 – before they were born. Now add to that they would have had to be over 18 at the latest in 1945 to have actually fought in the war.

    I’m not a kick in the shirt off 80 and I was just two when the war started. I did come under fire as my family went to Hants during part of WWII and we lived in London for a while too. But I also came under fire in Midlothian after we came home. However I was most certainly a non-combatant.

    Anyway, as I point out in another comment one very good reason you get a high proportion of the more elderly when knocking doors is quite simple. The younger ones are much more likely to be out not only during normal school/Office/working hours.

    The younger ones are more likely to be working, in further education or even seeking work during normal working hours. Not only that but are more likely to be out on sporting or other pleasure/pleasure pursuits of an evening too.

    Here’s some proof of what I’m claiming. Stand near a school gate at home-time and observe how many Grand Parents are collecting children for their own grown-up children and ask yourself why are the children’s parents absent?

  90. Rock says:


    “Because all the myriad reasons for voting YES apply to every voter and all ages in Scotland Rock.”

    No they don’t at all. You have completely lost the plot if you think they do.

    The vast majority of the elderly, the middle classes and the English (almost entirely elderly or middle class) voted No.

    Instead of wasting resources on unsuccessfully trying to convince them in the “SNP heartlands”, we could have got a Yes majority if RIC had been given those resources to convince more of the good folks in the schemes.

  91. ahundredthidiot says:


    Here is a suggestion.

    Ditch winter payments, but give all over 65’s a 50% discount on ALL electricity ONLY from renewable energy electricity, ALL year round. Limit free travel to a mileage allowance (to stop big business taking the piss) and introduce a mechanism of 1% plus CPI on pension incremental rises.

    Taking care of the elderly is important, affects all our lives, and needs to be taken seriously, despite our politics.

  92. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “You say those in the 65+ generation claim they won the war. Really?

    Anyone who is 65 now would have been born in 1951 and the war in Europe ended in 1945 – before they were born.”

    The history you bang on about happened twenty generations before almost everyone posting on this blog was born.

    The 70% elderly British nationalists who voted No grew up in an environment that glorified the Empire.

    Even if they were born 6 years after the war, they heard the stories from early childhood.

    In contrast, apart from the few remaining dodos in Scotland, no one has heard first hand what happened 20 generations ago.

  93. ahundredthidiot says:

    Robert Peffers, you say:*

    Here’s some proof of what I’m claiming. Stand near a school gate at home-time and observe how many Grand Parents are collecting children for their own grown-up children and ask yourself why are the children’s parents absent?*

    OK, you’re right, and your previous paragraph touches on it (sort of) the younger generation needs a bit of guidance on, well quite frankly, what is important. That said, it is now normal to have both parents working – and household finances are under pressure – the option of ‘five kids or four’ is (for overly concerned poential parents) now, 1 maybe two. Sad. I agree, but a reality. The question you pose is the direction of society, so if that is the case, then just say it!

  94. heedtracker says:

    Rock says:
    2 March, 2016 at 11:35 pm

    It does because Scots pensioners socio economics reflect pretty accurately the socio economics faced by everyone else. Middle and upper class Scotland is wealthy, the rest are slave wage and state pension only. If you’re a state pensioner and Gordon Brown is on BBC tv every night strutting about like a turkey on stage telling them they will lose that pitance UKOK state pension if they vote YES, that goon’s Project Fearing alone involves everyone.

  95. Rock says:


    “Taking care of the elderly is important, affects all our lives, and needs to be taken seriously, despite our politics.”

    I fully agree.

    And I don’t wish them an early death either.

    What I am pointing out is not a single penny should be spent trying to convince them to vote Yes.

    Even if you poured the money saved down the drain, you could at least spend the time saved more productively on trying to convince those who are more likely to be converted to our cause.

    Specifically, the folks that RIC reached.

  96. call me dave says:

    MPs overturn Lords’ bid to delay disability benefit cuts

    Maybe some in Scotland will miss this new measure?

  97. Dr Jim says:

    All pensioners must be made responsible for their actions in the Referendum and made to suffer, yes suffer, in some terrible awful way for not doing the right thing

    But how do I prove I’m a good pensioner? Oh, it’s OK I’m a party member Phew!! That’s OK then, Oh but I might not be able to produce my card coz It’s in my other wallet or in the drawer

    I hope I’ve said enough coz it’s beginning to sound like armbands next,
    When ever in anyone’s life has a pensioner in your family ever done what you wanted them to or even told you the truth about what they said or did to whom

    The population is what it is, old, young, in the middle, to bang on about ways to deal with folks democratic right to vote any way they want isn’t a good read for this movement
    It might be tough but that’s freedom of choice, would you take it away?

    Because that would be a different movement altogether

  98. Rock says:


    “It does because Scots pensioners socio economics reflect pretty accurately the socio economics faced by everyone else. ”

    You have got this completely wrong.

    Rich or poor, the vast majority of them are British nationalist first and everything else afterwards.

    Gordon Brown only provided them with a bonus excuse for voting No.

    The only people who might have been scared were the less well off working and non working classes which were scared to death by the likes of Asda.

  99. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Rock: ‘…no one has heard first hand what happened 20 generations ago.’

    Collins Dictionary: ‘Generation: the normal or average time between two such generations of a species: about 35 years for humans.’

    Conclusion: Rock is correct, because no-one in Scotland, so far as we know, is over 700 years old.

    Well done Rock!


  100. Still Positive. says:

    I was born in September 1950 and have been pro-indy since Winnie Ewing won Hamilton in 1967.

    In the indyref, 2 of my 3 sons eligible to vote (the other lives in Surrey ) were instinctively pro-Yes, the other almost voted ‘No’ but couldn’t vote against his country in the end.

    The 2 who were pro-indy and my daughter-in-law worked tirelessly with me to make it happen – and it did in West Dunbartonshire.

    I never forced my views on my sons so they came to agree with me through their own research.

    In fact, my oldest son (the one who lives in Surrey ) didn’t believe that I had been voting SNP since he was 2.

    Most of my friends and acquaintances my age group voted Yes.

    The war means nothing to me although my father fought in India and Burma and my mother nursed injured soldiers and airmen.

  101. stephen says:

    Agree with comments about RIC,they did not get enough recognition of the work they done during the referendum.Persuading people who weren’t even on the voters roll ,to register and vote ,in many cases for the first time.It was no coincidence that the most socially deprived areas in Scotland voted YES,the areas where change was most needed.I believe if organisations like RIC had been given more support and resources,a YES vote would have been a given.Also agree a waste of time trying to engage with British unionist pensioners,if everyone in Scotland was given a million quid and free Irn-Bru on tap,they would still vote No.

  102. ahundredthidiot says:

    Dr Jim

    I am guilty of giving pensioners a hard time, I don’t mean it in a disrespectful way, it is simply that my father will most likely die ‘British’ not ‘Scottish’ – which I admit is the source of my anger – that, and peoples lack of courage.

    Those pensioners who voted Yes, have my utmost respect, they are the same as me. Actually, they are better than me, because I haven’t been through what they have.

    FOS isn’t just a song of the past. It has never been more relevant in Scottish history.

  103. Rock says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    “Conclusion: Rock is correct, because no-one in Scotland, so far as we know, is over 700 years old.”

    You missed the last sentence:

    “In contrast, apart from the few remaining dodos in Scotland, no one has heard first hand what happened 20 generations ago.”

    There are definitely a few who still remember the days when “sovereign” Scots used to get rid of monarchs they didn’t like.

    Nowadays, “sovereign” us cannot even get rid of Carmichael, let alone the purring queen.

  104. Ian Brotherhood says:

    It should be pointed out that Robert Peffers (if I remember correctly) recently told Rock – very clearly – that he would have no further correspondence with him on this site.

    I can’t pinpoint the exchange, but IF that’s true (and Robert will put me right otherwise) then anyone responding to Rock should bear in mind that his quoting of any Robert Peffers comments is a form of goading.

    Please don’t fall for it.

  105. Rock says:

    Still Positive,

    “The war means nothing to me although my father fought in India and Burma and my mother nursed injured soldiers and airmen.”

    It doesn’t to the admirable 30% but it means everything to the British nationalist 70%.

  106. Still Positive. says:

    Call me dave @ 11.55

    I was watching that debate on the ‘Red Button’ when it suddenly switched to cycling or some such at about 8ish Could only get HoL on Parliament channel.

    The BBC trying to thwart our democratic rights to watch the HoC surely not!

    Totally pissed off with that.

  107. ahundredthidiot says:

    Ian B

    You are right. That kind of did happen. But RP did respond to him since. So. My advice, for what it’s worth, is, to not do that. You don’t have to agree with Rock, but let’s not light the torches.

    Open forum and all that.

  108. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock (12.15) –

    You are addressing me directly?


    First off – your use of the word ‘sovereign’ does no more than resurrect your manufactured feud with Robert Peffers.
    The issue of Scottish ‘sovereignty’ is not your personal plaything. It is a matter of legislative fact, not one aspect of which have you been able to challenge successfully in your exchanges with Robert.

    Secondly – your obsessive pillorying of a specific sector of Scottish society (i.e. the elderly) exposes and shames you. Not as a hater of ‘old dears’ per-se, but as one who has identified a fault-line in Scottish communities and honed-in on it as a potentially fruitful point to create division.

    Thirdly – your comments on this site, ever since you first appeared, have been so uniformly devoid of emotion, empathy or any other basic human quality, that any objective observer can only reach the conclusion that you come here by duty rather than choice.

    I don’t know what motivates you, ‘Rock’, but I cannot and will never believe that you are a genuine advocate for Scottish independence.

    Finally – I really do wish that you would just fuck off.

  109. I have been S.N.P
    since 1959

  110. FairFerfochen says:

    Human Rights Framework: Scotland

    As usual, ran out of time and many questions remain unanswered.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    I see Lesley Riddoch is having a go at the SNP for being dull and unimaginative with its council tax reform, and various others are as well.

    Is it just me, or are people being so hasty to find any excuse to down the SNP, they can’t even see beyond their own keyboard rather than sit and think about it for a while?

    I think its “evolutionary” as a guy from Heriot-Watt said, a safe starting step in a fairly long process. Rates go back to, well, 1739 or earlier (county rate / poor tax), apparently, by which time valuations were already 100 years out of date. It’s not going to get reformed in half-an-hour at someone’s article-overworked keyboard!

  112. Macart says:


    As you can see from the article, what can be done is being done both by the author and by an MP of his acquaintance, but yes I wish having heard Sam’s story, we could do something. The worst horror of that story is that there are thousands of ex service personnel in Sam’s situation. Men and women cast aside like used rags after service. Where do you start?

    We know Sam’s name and this brings the shame and the frustration home to us, provides a focus for a truly massive wrong. There are commenters on this site who have a better handle on the true scale of the issue of military personnel of many conflicts, over many years, abandoned by the state.

    There are a great many Sams out there and IMO the best we can collectively do is ensure that we give regularly to those charities such as the one the author represents. Also that in an independent Scotland we don’t forget and we ensure our future government honours its covenant with those who serve in our defence. Woe betide any political party or Scottish government which uses our service men and women recklessly or abandons them during or after service.

  113. Macart says:


    No and yes in that order. 😀

    The SNP are gradualists, they work slowly and cautiously through consensus. They are also politically astute and take small steps where others would stride.

    Sometimes folk just need reminded that those small steps are all in the one direction and rarely falter or waver. Sometimes they even break into one of those strides. 😉

  114. yesindyref2 says:

    OMG in desperation just installed Adblock Plus (in Firefox).

    It’s brilliant! Why oh why didn’t I follow advice before – posted on this forum in fact! The Herald is so fast now, and I don’t have to try to hit the red x to stop it jerking and going all over the place. The National’s been getting painful too, now it’s fine.

    Yes, the gradual approach. But I do wonder if there are any surprises to come in the manifesto?

  115. Ken500 says:

    The SNP are doing

    what they can in the circumstances because people voted NO. Once they have more power in Holyrood May 2016, they will be able to do even more. YES voters who say they want Independence are just scoring an own goal by slagging off the SNP all the time. They have a grudge against the SNP and constantly slagging them off they damage the Independence movement. The SNP Gov hands are tied because people voted NO and Scotland still doesn’t have the full levers to control the economy. They should stop slagging off the SNP and wait until people vote YES (very soon) and then start slagging off the SNP.

    The Greens have a problem with the SNP and it clouds their judgement. They would rather collude with Unionists in Scotland to get power and betray their own policies. Renege on them and damage the Independence movement. Say they support Independence to get votes and then when they get power renege on their own policies. A double whammy. Money which should be going to essential services is instead going to grotesque projects the majority do not want. They keep on slagging off the SNP for policies they know are imposed by Westminster. Non devolved powers.

    Ie Fracking. They are against fracking in Scotland but Scotland are using fracked gas from other countries (Unionist policy). The Councils (Unionist/Green) should be reigned in for overspending on grotesque unnecessary projects the majority do not want. The Greens want the councils to have more power.

    Scotland has lost over £20Billion in the last 6 years because of the Westminster (Unionist) policies on Oil taxation, which would have paid for essential services. Or investment in Green policies. Electric cars are four times cheaper to run. The Westminster gov is illegally taxing the Oil sector at 60%, (collecting less tax) and then importing Oil (with no alternatives) putting up the balance of payments and the debt.

    Emmissions are reducing in Scotland with the investment in Renewables. A balance.

    The Green land taxation proposals by the Green make no sense and could be a damaging tax on the whole Scottish economy. The Greens critise the Scottish Gov (damaging the Independence movement) for not implementing it. There is no mandate for it from the voters. They know the right to own property is enshrined in the Human rights Act which give Scotland Devolution and protects the rights of all Scottish citizens in the EU. There is no mandate for their Land tax from the voters.

    Anyone can buy a bit of land in Scotland but they can’t put a hut on it because of Scottish planning Laws. The Greens would be the first ones complaining if people tried to build a hut on a bit of land. Scotland has a ‘right to roam’ which give people the right to roam over most of Scotland for very little cost. Cheaper than the upkeep of a hut.

    They collude with Landowners against bringing land back into public use on many developments to improve the economy, at every opportunity. They want to bring in their proposals for Land tax which possible would have a detrimental affect on the Scottish economy – unforeseen consequences. They should put it in a manifesto and lobby for it. Instead of constantly critising the SNP for not implementing their Land tax which could have an adverse effect on the Scottish economy. The Scottish Gov does not have the power to do so because of Devolution/rules tied up with the Human Rights Act. No Scottish Gov could implement the Green land tax without more powers -FFA/Home rule/Independence.It could have an adverse effect on the Scottish economy. Unforseen consequences. Ie Putting up the cost of food, housing etc which could be a bigger burden on those in most need, damage farming and the production ofbfood and exports. Not a progressive, equal fair tax but a blanket tax. The Greens have to wait for more powers/Independence to campaign/lobby for their Land Tax and get a mandate for it.

    They collude with Unionists and renege on their own policies putting a burden on those in most need. Squandering public money left right and centre, putting up taxes on grotesque
    schemes the majority do not want. Ruining City centres and damaging the economy without a mandate. .Neither the SNP or the Greens have a mandate for a Land tax but the Greens want the SNP to imposed their Land tax illegally, damaging the Independence movement. The Greens typically cut off their nose to spite their face and have a hissy fit when they don’t get what they want. Unconstitutional.

    The value of land is related to what is built in it. Planning permission puts up the value of the land. The biggest problem is tax evasion which could be avoided by enforcing the (UK) Tax Laws. Fairer to all. A Scottish Gov can’t do because they don’t have the tax powers. It is a reserved matter.

    The Scottish Gov doesn’t have the power to reduce the Oil tax, with Oil prices falling (with no alternatives) Losing Scotland thousands of jobs and £Billions which could be used to reduce poverty. There would be less poverty and better essential services if Osbourne was not using UK tax powers to (deliberately) damage the Scottish economy.

    Many people in the UK (Greens) want fracking banned but are using fracked Gas from other countries. The Tories have banned coal production (no CCS). Coal is being imported (without CCS) from other countries (higher emmissions). Putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt. The UK Gov does not raise enough taxes in the rest of the UK to reduce the debt. Tax evasion by Westminster members and their associates. Scotland has to pay £Billions on debt repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland.

    The Tories are spending £25Billion++ (borrowed money) building a nuclear power station by the sea. Nuclear is the most dangerous and can be the most damaging for the Environment. The problems of storing the waste. Exporting it to other countries is not a solution and is totally unsafe. Renewables would be far cheaper. The have banned (on shore?) wind turbines in England. The Tories are spending £Billions on nuclear weapons which are unnecessary and unsafe, especially for Scotland. 6 rusting redundant, damaged submarines are sitting at Rosyth. If they want nuclear weapons base them on the Thames. The Tories (in Westminster) don’t what them based near them. They described (Hammond) Faslane as a ‘wasteland’. 30 mins from Glasgow one of Scottand’s biggest, important City and the beautiful West coast. The Clyde can’t be developed as an industrial base because of the nuclear weapons base. It will be a wasteland if the Tories/Unionists have their way.

    Rock makes some valid points.

  116. Ken500 says:

    # Didn’t realise that was so long. Should have reduced it.

  117. jdman says:

    Why is Michael Fallon saying on tv “we ARE renewing these boats NOW”
    anyone remember there being a vote to renew trident?
    I was about to say it’s ALMOST as if the other parties opinion doesn’t matter to them but then realized how redundant the word “almost ” was!

  118. jdman says:

    posts only look long Ken
    but a short read really.

  119. Ken500 says:

    ACC majority Unionist/Green. Their leader wanted to create a new by-Law to put homeless beggars in jail. Criminalising them. They are wasting £Millions of taxpayers money on grotesque projects the majority do not want, damaging the local economy.

    There is no overnight provision in the City for vulnerable homeless people (with health problems). They are sleeping in open shelters down at the beach in subzero temperatures. The majority of citizens (voters) are extremely concerned about them. It is an absolute disgrace and makes people extremely angry. People are having to sleep in bins because Unionist policies are sanctioning people and starving vulnerable people to death. Cold, vulnerable, worried, hungry people can’t sleep, get sick. They risk developing mental health problems Die younger and can commit suicide.

    The Grampian Health Authorities are the only Health Authority in Scotland who do not fund primary care for drink/drug addiction (poison) problems. Or proper, total abstinence, counselling. Leading to other health, social problems and issues which require increased funding.

  120. FairFerfochen says:

    Human Rights Framework: Scotland

    As usual, ran out of time and many questions remain unanswered

  121. Grouse Beater says:

    Did my best to make sense of Brexit – hope it’s a help to others trying to rationalise Westminster’s reasoning. Lovely to hear our cousins tell us why they want to regain sovereignty for England, but not allow it for Scotland.

    EU – In Or Out?

  122. Nana says:

    O/T links


    Open access to official stats

  123. Ken500 says:

    Google (or what ever) Nuclear waste. It an absolute scandal. Unsafe, dangerous (which could destroy the planet) nuclear waste is being exported to other countries. France is exporting it to Russia. The UK is exporting it to Ethiopia. Unsafe, nuclear waste is being store in unsafe, unregulated facilities. That is a bigger problem than any global warming, which can be managed and controlled more easily. The Pill/contraceptives. A peak in population,which countries are regulating.

    Nuclear weapons, waste (poison) is uncontrollable. Unsafe, storage and increasing distribution is a major problem. A vastly more destructive issue and the most important issue for the future of the planet. The danger of nuclear weapons etc. There is no cure to radiation poisoning.

  124. Macart says:


    Well, they did spring the latest tax wheeze out of the blue leaving their opposition almost completely wrong footed. I’d say there’s a better than even chance of a few more surprises waiting in the wings. 🙂

  125. Ken500 says:

    The former bank of England chief is lying. He is more responsible for the ‘European’ world banking depression – crash than anybody. Trying to pass the buck. A complete pack of lies. UK/US deregulation of banking rules (worldwide) and levage of capital reserves from 25% to 13% caused the recession/depression. Brown and Blair should be out in jail. It was UK/US banking crooks caused the crash. They and their associates are still causing the problems, the UK/US governments. Greedy pig face suckers.

  126. Grouse Beater says:

    That’s some lengthy rant from Rock. How can one person sustain such anger and not burst a blood vessel? Or take a toilet break? Impressive.

  127. Nana says:

    @call me dave 10.35

    Gings, that was like an old Hammer house of horror movie [remember them?] Stuff of nightmares seeing those sleekit useless people again.

    We are well rid of them.

  128. Ken500 says:

    UK Unionist overnment policies are causing people to have mental health problems, causing stress and anxiety, and causing people to be unable to work. With not enough jobs available.

    Westminster Unionists and their unmandated policies are making people sick. The Tories were
    elected to protect the NHS and reduce the debt. They have done neither. The pig faced suckers are damaging and destroying the UK economy, They haven’t got a clue. They are also still illegally bombing other countries causing even more stress, anxiety and death in the world, and damaging Scotland reputation.

  129. mealer says:

    you seem to be determined to try to turn OUR independence movement into YOUR class war.I think that’s a bad idea.I think we need to nurture support wherever we find it.Its a national movement for everyone living in Scotland.Thats our biggest strength.We’re everywhere.In the schools.In the kirks.In every kind of profession.In hospitals and factories and fields.It scare the living day lights out of those who want to keep us under London rule.

    I do a lot of canvassing.Over recent months I’ve noticed a number of older people are now giving their age as their main reason for not supporting the SNP.Almost like an excuse.An apology.I see it as a little chink of light.

  130. jdman says:

    What the hell give Fallon the right to spend OUR money on Trident when its not YET been agreed by parliament this is a complete disregard for democracy surely?

  131. jdman says:

    Barmy Hairdo,
    and Smug.
    credit to Brian Bilston on

  132. Grouse Beater says:

    JDMan: “What the hell give Fallon the right to spend OUR money on Trident when its not YET been agreed by parliament”

    Tory arrogance, hubris, a slip of the tongue because he knows the policy can be pushed through Westminster…

    He has a huge task ahead of him to convince a whole population to accept more austerity yet to come from Osborne, and to pay vast sums to keep a few naval lords thinking Britannia still rules the waves.

  133. Breeks says:

    @Ken 500

    I hear what you’re saying Ken, but I’m not prepared to write the SNP a blank cheque. Perhaps if they hadn’t shirked their obligations to me personally I might feel different, but I am still left to deal with the consequences of their abdication of responsibility while these gutless wonders strut the stage as would-be saviours of Scotland. And before you continue about the sacrifices we all have to bear, you might consider the sacrifices I already do bear by staying silent and NOT hauling these indolent Buck passers before a standards committee.

    Why don’t I stay silent? I try, I bloody well do. But my confidence in the SNP is borderline. Most recently, we were marched up the hill holding Westminster to account for their failure to deliver the Vow; a tailor made anvil to pound Westminster for their duplicity. Then Swinney makes a deal, and we are suddenly expected to celebrate a money deal when it was political capital to further the chances of Scottish Independence which most of us wanted to see. I try not to think of it, but bought and sold for English gold springs to mind. But I say nothing. If the despicable Vow is not the fulcrum for the struggle, then what event is going to do it? Something even more blatant perhaps? I shake my head at the opportunity lost.

    You see the dilemma I have is that the SNP is the only show in town, but I have the gravest reservations about the quality of the performance. I’ve said it before, it worries me that the powers behind closed doors in Westminster will pull the legs off our pedestrian SNP government like a schoolboy tormenting a spider.

    The SNP present the May elections as the next stage in the process, but then leave me hanging. Let’s suppose the SNP clobbers everyone as expected, and has a bigger outright majority in Holyrood. Just how, in practical terms, does anything change? There is already an outright majority, and logically, those obstacles which obstruct progress now are manifestly not surmountable by democratic majority. So what are we actually achieving? Are we just pursuing a headline? What ACTUALLY changes?

    Then we come to the BBC, the “gooks” inside our perimeter. The SNP seems to have no idea how to hold the BBC to account. While we all of us know what is happening, there is still no formal protest or demands for an inquiry into the BBC’s misconduct and collusion with the Unionist cause. In the aftermath, we lost Scotland, our country, and yet not one hostile reporter, journalist, or straight up propagandist has suffered so much as a blemish on their record. They are all still in place, and spouting their acrid pish about us separatists. We have seen what happens next. Yet on we sail on the same course. When I raise the issue; “shut up! Shut up! You’re rocking the boat. We have a secret plan”.

    I repeat. My faith in the SNP is borderline. This Wings website, an online blog by one man supported by public subscription has done more to hold the BBC and Unionist news rags to account than ANYTHING the SNP has done, and yet for the strangest reason, I get the undeniable feeling the SNP prefers to keep Wings at arms length. I hate to say it, but it smells like fear.

    I’m also not buying this argument that suddenly hordes of No voters woke up to their stupidity, and turned into Yes voters for the next time. I hope your right, but I don’t share your optimism. Failure to deliver a YES vote was a body blow, but I get no feeling that we have built anything over and above the pre-referendum expectation. We need to see the SNP doing something.

    The only sense I can make of the SNP’s strategy is to build up a dossier of injustice and failures of democratic process and make political capital from Westminter’s dominance and incompatibility with Scottish objectives. Is that it? You are planning for failure and then appealing to the Scottish electorate to agree it’s unfair?

    Well, that wouldn’t be my strategy. And heads up, if that is your strategy, then the Unionist media is already lining up one ambush after another on your chosen route to freedom. They can see you coming.

    I am an ardent supporter of Independence. I will back and vote for the SNP because I want Independence. But before we are in the white hot temperatures of the furnace, I will challenge, no I will implore, the SNP to raise its game for all our sakes and forge a much more effective, and much less niaive strategy for dealing with Westminster’s skullduggery. It seems to me it is sorely needed. You, the SNP, has not won your present status, Scotland has leant you the power. We, all of us, expect you to do something with it.

  134. Another Union Dividend says:

    BBC Radio Scotland phone in on about Council Tax reform

    Call 0500 92 95 00. Text 80295.
    Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk

    This progressive council tax reform could see £100m a year raised for education, with those in top 25% of homes paying more but Councils limited to a 3% increase.. Bands A-D unaffected. When Labour was in power, 1999 to 2007, Band D Council Tax increased by £280 or 31% in Edinburgh.

    A tax rise that doesn’t affect those at the bottom in the first place seems a better plan than one that needs a convoluted “rebate”.

    Scottish Government will also consult on allowing a tax on vacant and derelict land to reduce land banking and increase supply of homes.

    Targeted relief will protect low income families in top band homes, while increase in child allowance will benefit 77,000 households

  135. heedtracker says:

    Ken500 says:
    3 March, 2016 at 7:41 am
    ACC majority Unionist/Green.

    UKOK yoon culture WTF, from Aberdeen and ACC, currently owned by SLabour. High controversy £100 million city centre construction contract, massive local opposition, public excluded/ignored, contract pops up the day before it goes to a council vote. And that’s how you get things done in ACC.

    From Facebook, the local Marischal Square Development protest. Check the number of questions these people have but are totally ignored by ACC, in 2016.

    Latest FOI response –
    The Council have admitted that they don’t have a hard copy or electronic copy of the form which is required to be submitted if documents are submitted late for a council meeting……..

    In May 2013, the Muse proposal document was submitted only 24 hours prior to the vote by full council.

    This was crucial as until this point Councillors not on the adhoc committee, thought that the council was simply selling the land. However, Muse and Aviva Investors had persuaded ACC to enter into a joint venture.

    This effectively resulted in a procurement situation, which should have been advertised in a European Procurement journal. With only 24 hours to go until the Council decision on the tender, Councillors learnt that there would be a ‘complex and unique contract’ (according to Steven Whyte, ACC Financial Director).

    How many understood the implications of this contract, in the short time allotted to its review?

    For this decision, one which according to the tender documents would be controversial for Aberdonians, why did they rush through the vote?

    What reasons were given on the form for late document submission? Was the form ever submitted?

    We may never know as for some reason the evidence cannot be found.

    The governance for this development has left a lot to be desired, and this is but one development.”

  136. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Just a wee reminder that if anyone would like to contribute to the collection for Robert Peffers Gold Wings fund then put some money in Rev Stu fund raiser, select no perks and post a comment on Off Thread for @cearc to say how much.

    Robert has been a great asset to this site and it would be fantastic to recognise his contribution.

  137. Grouse Beater says:

    Found this: Hope it doesn’t make Wingers melancholy – it strengthens resolve for me:

  138. Sinky says:

    Too much to expect Louise White to point out to Yoons that

    Council Tax freeze has been fully funded or that pensioners and lower income households will get rebates.

    Laughed at Yoon who said she would move to North of England to avoid Council tax increase. Does she not know how much tax in England is going up

  139. Bob Mack says:


    I agree with much of what you wrote and perhaps the only difference is that I am prepared to temper my own desire for independence here and now, by playing the longer game,difficult though that may be.

    Labour ,like so many other political organisations have found to their cost that the opinion of the public is fickle.Todays hero is tomorrow’s villain. The SNP are ,I feel, on a mission to prove their competence in Government. The majority of Scots must believe they can put their absolute trust in the decisions of their government before having enough confidence to take that final step. We have already made the transition,but others have still to follow.

    Remember we have been a Nation cowed by centuries of being made to feel inadequate and dependant on a neighbour to survive.

    Then perhaps we can be as brave and forthright as you and I desire.

  140. Legerwood says:

    jdman @ 8.29am

    The decision to renew Trident was really taken during the Blair/Brown years. From the Guardian:
    “”The [Labour ] cabinet agreed to renew Trident without any dissent, and on 14 March 2007 the House of Commons voted by 409 to 161 (the minority included 88 Labour MPs) to build the new Successor class submarines that, together with modifications to the D5 missile, would prolong the system’s life from 2020 to 2050.””

    Once you have decided to build the submarines then you are pretty well committed to the rest. In 2009 Gordon Brown did say he would reduce the Trident submarine fleet by ONE as a nod to nuclear disarmament but he made no commitment to reducing the number of warheads which at that time stood at 160.

    So the fact that Mr Fallon has said they are spending money on Trident really should not come as a great surprise since it is likely that quite a bit has already been spent since that 2007 vote.

  141. call me dave says:

    Mention to Morag (again) this morning on ‘Your Call’ tore other callers to shreds on the council tax and explained that not all property rich income poor would necessarily pay the rates for the higher bands.
    “An excuse for labour and the rest to have a pot shot at the SG” she said. Well done Morag (not our other Morag from the borders)

    James Kelly MSP had a wee cameo performance but, as usual, did not impress, my partner enquired “who’s that reading from a script” nuff said!

    We’ll see what their plans are in their manifesto. Aye right!

  142. GrahamB says:

    How the State Broadcaster reports our news, from online Scotland Live

    Headline: “Operations cancelled after plumbing leak led to sewage entering surgery unit at Scotland’s newest hospital”

    Then a lot of blah about leak in the Neurosurgery Unit (built at least 40 years ago), and tucked away at the end: “The ageing unit was not upgraded when the £842m new hospital was built and its operating theatres are due to be replaced next year.”

  143. Andrew Mclean says:

    Yesindyref 2

    Are you proposing “Hug a granny” or grandpa?

    Actually this might work better than demonizing them as NO voters, they get statistically more news from newspaper and TV than younger voters.

    We need a 5% swing and its game over, that’s why we now have the propaganda war on social media, notice how extremist the Unionist have become, like a fatally wounded animal backed into a corner all snarling teeth and snot.

    Also as was evidenced during the referendum, those who pro port to have enhanced political acumen, as is befits their position in the party, should understand we can see the well timed “slips” of provocative language for what they truly are, word of warning to the wise, you now have our attention.

    Lastly I did have a laugh this morning when listening to the “Minister of Truth” broadcasts on my car stereo, “this intervention by BMW raises the questions that were raised during the Scottish referendum, as to the place of businesses in political debates”

    Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t remember the hand-wringing and cries of “unfair” from media when we had to listen to that crap, I remember the broadcasters serious warnings of dire calamity.

    But wait till we get troops on the border, Oh sorry that was the next item, but we still have to hear, financial institutions will leave our capital, what’s that BBC, Paris the new London??? FFS this is a carbon copy!

    So that’s why we had a referendum, just like the pool tax it was a dry run for a conservative PM.

  144. Capella says:

    State Broadcaster angry about us all watching the iPlayer without a licence. “Culture Secretary”, John Whittingdale, promises to fix that befor the summer. No more Sherlock.

    Also, newspapers do’t like AdBlock. If you don’t pay for content how are they to survive? None of them dare risk the annual fundraiser like WoS.

  145. Andrew Mclean says:

    I really should proof read before I post!
    Pool tax was Greece!

  146. galamcennalath says:

    GrahamB says:

    “How the State Broadcaster reports our news, from online Scotland”

    Yes, indeed. There is no way you could convince me that headline was just plain ignorance, incompetence and/or stupidity!

    Apologists might claim so, but no, that is yet another example of classic propaganda technique from the BBC Labour North.

    I have always wanted a Scottish Six, and more, from our broadcaster. However, I have serious doubts of the present shower at the BBC have a desire to deliver anything other than the usual biased crap we currently get.

  147. galamcennalath says:

    Capella says:

    “State Broadcaster angry about us all watching the iPlayer without a licence.”

    Have they thought that one through? The TV license allows you to watch live TV, NOT specifically the BBC. Even if you only watch satellite TV from Poland, you are required by law to pay the TV Tax.

    If they insist on taxing non live streamed content, where does that leave Netfilx, Lovefilm, or even YouTube?

    Or, do they plan to explicitly couple the BBC to the TV Tax? If so, then surely that should apply to live broadcasts? The TV Tax would then be explicitly for the BBC and nothing else.

    Typical Tory mouth first, brain second approach to proposed legislation!

  148. Fred says:

    If Osborne wants the pensioners to work until they’re 75, (after all Her Maj didn’t retire at 60,) imagine a brickie having to keep going till gravity drops him! This will reduce the enthusiasm for Rule Britannia quite considerably.

  149. Nana says:

    Did anyone else see Bailey gurning and smirking with sly looks at Greg Hands. She’s a thoroughly nasty individual. We are paying these unionists to look down on our parliament and Scotland as a whole. Makes me angry to say the least.

    From committee room 2
    I noted Greg Hands does not want to publish papers re fiscal framework agreement. Chair of the committee and the msp next to him were getting rather annoyed and no wonder.

  150. louis.b.argyll says:

    ..or should that be cock. A real sucker whatever.

  151. yesindyref2 says:

    @Andrew Mclean
    Hug a wrinklie!

    Yes, sounds good. One of the great things about YES was that it was happy and funny, and happy does win over negative, it takes time.

  152. Fred says:

    Nicola never missed Baillie & hit the wa’ at FMQT 🙂

  153. Grouse Beater says:

    Call me Dave: “My partner enquired “Who’s that reading from a script?””

    Neat observation, and an attuned ear!

  154. Ken500 says:

    People not have to work until they are over seventy if they do not want to. The workplace will change and expenditure by governments will change. Priority will change. Less money will be spent on Defence (yearly) or large Non essential major projects. The economy will adjust to different priorities. The world economys’ priorities will change. Technology will change. Robots.The population will peak and then decline. Pill/conception controls on the population will spread worldwide.

  155. Andrew Mclean says:

    yesindyref2 says:12:37

    Happy and funny, yes because fundamentally, we are better people, not bitter little drum beaters!
    That’s why we are winning, the sad little guys thought they won the war, they didn’t realise it was just the opening salvo in the latest battle, some do that’s why they keep mentioning the referendum result, they want the world to stop, to crystallize the debate in 2014, well its 2016 and in May its SNPx2 and another step forward in the journey.
    The march of time is on our side.

    Look how easily what would be considered an atrocity or war crime today, is mentioned in this British officers report. The only time in the past the Westminster government has left a colony is when it was too risky to stay. Thank god all they can do today is twitter insult like little children in a strop!

  156. Ken500 says:

    If a robot is carrying out duties, after the initial investment They do not get a wage. They do not eat. It leaves more resources/profits produced for everyone else. To be taxed and equally distributed.

  157. James Barr Gardner says:

    3 March, 2016 at 10:14 am
    jdman @ 8.29am

    The decision to renew Trident was really taken during the Blair/Brown years.

    In 2005 Aldermaston advertised for 200 new engineering staff to work on the next generation of missile nuclear warheads.

    The red tories have lied along with the blue tories,as we say they are two cheeks of the same arse, the westminster elite.

    Vote SNP X 2 in May and Vote IN for EU. Keep watching, keep marching, keep on capping doors, throw more peat on the fire.

    Let’s show these tories the door out of Scotland, they’re not wanted, not required, fit for nothing, they are beyond shame.

  158. Ken500 says:

    They didn’t want nuclear weapons at Greenham Common, Berkshire, 55 miles west of London. It was closed in 1993. Fallon would better reconsider his undemocratic position .

  159. Iain More says:

    Off topic!

    I am enjoying the Brit Nat bleating today. I personally think the SNPs proposed changes to the Council Tax are a bit tame really but it still didn’t stop the Brit Nat whinge about them.

    I am not surprised the bitchin about them started within seconds of the announcement being made by Sturgeon. I am even less surprised that the Brit Nats were the first to bitch whinge squeal moan and bleat about them.

    I did get one dig in today at one of those Naw Bags in an F rated property by telling him that he would be investing in his grand child’s education with that extra money that was going to Education and not into Moray Brit Nat Councils Vanity or the Brit Nat controlled Council Empire Building Schemes.

  160. mealer says:

    I think the increase in the top bands of council tax is probably just a stop gap measure while they work out a replacement for local government funding.I think we’ll go for a Land Value Tax,possibly with an element of Local Income Tax.

  161. Andrew Mclean says:

    Iain More,

    Band G, no kids in school, so?

    Taxation however structured or appropriated is an necessary evil; wrongly implemented and discharged an intolerable one.

    However I am so pleased we have in my country Scotland a government that has engineered that the extra funds will be ring-fenced for education, The mind once enlightened cannot again become dark, and this is the day for enlightened minds!

    In any case one good teacher is of more use than a hundred council managers. And in that I speak with experience!

  162. sensibledave says:

    … I remember a number of threads where I criticised the SNP for freezing council tax across the board – as one example of the exact opposite of progressive policies (together with free university education for the Laird’s son, free prescriptions for multi-millionaires, free care for elderly billionaires, etc).

    I was shouted down! I was told repeatedly why all these things are morally correct. Should I assume that Wingers will now be spitting bullets because of the U Turn by the Scottish Government?

  163. Andrew Mclean says:

    And right on cue, the reason why education matters!

  164. Bob Mack says:


    The SNP are not going to increase Council Tax for the most expensive properties. I do not know where you got that from. It is the COUNCIL who will have to implement or impose any increase if they so desire.

  165. Ken500 says:

    Still got free prescriptions, social care, no bedroom tax, bus passes, and a more equal tax for education. That’s a start.

    The Tories are still illegal, taxing the Oil sector at 60%. Losing Scotland thousands of jobs and revenues. The wealthiest in the UK are are still illegally evading tax, sanctioned by Westminster. Google etc break the UK tax Laws and pay 3%. HMRC are not fit for purpose. Westminster do not enforce the UK tax Laws costing Scotland £Billions

    Fallon is still trying to illegally force his WMD weapons on Scotland while Westminster sanctions illegally vulnerable people and starves them to death.

  166. Bob Mack says:

    Sensible Dave comes here to talk about millionaires on free prescriptions and Lairds children apparently going to state schools. Surely if they get all these apparent freebies they can afford a little extra Council Tax?

    What about a chat regarding those who have their bedroom tax paid or who have council tax paid via subsidy by the Scottish government? How about tax credits being subsidised when the good old UK phase them out.?

    No guess not. It does not fit the Dave agenda.

  167. Ken500 says:



    As a practice we are increasingly concerned about the threat of tax investigation; they can be chosen at random and all taxpayers are at risk.

    HM Revenues & Customs are developing more initiatives for tax compliance. We have seen Inspectors become increasingly agressive as they are being targeted to produce higher yields from inquiry work they undertake. HMRC’s powers have been significantly increased during this time and worryingly, Inspectors are now attempting to go back 20 years when calculating any additional tax due.

    Consequently,the length of investigations is escalating and professional defending fees could run into thousands of pounds. People/businesses will be responsible for all professional costs if selected for enquiry’.

    Not applicable for the Tories tax evading mates for a donation/bribe.

  168. Andrew Mclean says:


    Did you not go to the zoo when a child, well if you did there are signs everywhere cautioning against feeding the inmates!

  169. ahundredthidiot says:

    We’re over £60k……fantastic

  170. Bob Mack says:

    @Andrew Mc Lean.

    Yes Andrew, but he is such an itty bitty brain cell to leave on his own.Bless.

    It would be like leaving Bambi to the forest fire.!!!!!

  171. Les Wilson says:

    iPlayer, they got us

  172. jcd says:

    No time to read comments so might have been brought up already but I hope that this year’s total slightly exceeds that of last year. Even if it’s like three quid short of last year we can see it coming can’t we?

    “Blow For Cyber Cult Boss As Donations Dry Up”

  173. Onwards says:

    The council tax issue seems to have been dealt with pretty well.
    OK, it was reformed rather than replaced, but the changes seem to tick many of the boxes that were required.

    The SNP was under increasing pressure to halt the council tax freeze, to have more progressive taxes, and to invest in education.

    So this should keep the opposition happy I suppose.

  174. Breeks at 8.54 am

    With the SNP hovering around 60% support in a four or five member contest I have rarely read a more obviusly uninformed diatribe of political incomprehension

  175. HandandShrimp says:

    The SNP was under increasing pressure to halt the council tax freeze, to have more progressive taxes, and to invest in education.

    So this should keep the opposition happy I suppose.


    If by happy you mean really, really annoyed that the measures are sane, practical and actually pretty voter friendly then I guess they are happy 🙂

    I think the measures are fairly tame and that they could have gone a little further but we go to the polls in 9 weeks and now is the time for a steady hand and a safe course. I am not surprised that the SNP have played a percentage ball rather than try and hit the green in one stroke.

  176. call me dave says:

    FMQs a bit of a dull one today.

    Sturgeon stating the fracking obvious and Deputy Deadwood resigned to her impending doom. Baillie becoming the butt of all the party jokes…shame. 🙂

    All over in record time and Marwick purred commending all!

    Tried the archive thingy again and it seems OK now.

    Salmond steps in arks the Herald:

  177. Phronesis says:

    Scotland thinking already like an independent country. Looking forward and planning for the health care needs of the whole population eschewing the animosity of a WM elite that couldn’t really care less about the fate of the 99% and are happy to personally profit from the demise of the state.

  178. Gary45% says:

    Anyone else think that the Labour political agenda is, spout as much shite to try and sway the voters, then if by some miracle win the election, then spend the next 5 years blaming the previous government, so they can hide their own hidden, uncosted polices.
    Tony the war criminal blamed the previous Tory government every day when he was PM, I would expect no less from Dipity and her morons.(apologies to any morons who are now embarrassed by being linked to Slab)
    I have to hand it to the SNP, if I had to put up with the mind numbingly pathetic failed point scoring by the opposition, I would be thrown out of politics.
    SNPx1,000000+ Euro Aye.

  179. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “That’s some lengthy rant from Rock. How can one person sustain such anger and not burst a blood vessel? Or take a toilet break? Impressive.”

    You should have taken a toilet break before posting that.

    I never make lengthy posts.

  180. Rock says:



    “I think we need to nurture support wherever we find it.Its a national movement for everyone living in Scotland.Thats our biggest strength.We’re everywhere.In the schools.In the kirks.In every kind of profession.In hospitals and factories and fields”

    Like many others, you are missing the point I am making.

    For any campaign, resources are limited. They are best spent if targeted at the right people.

    There are three groups of diehard British nationalists who will never be convinced.

    By my reckoning, 70% of the elderly, 90% of the middle classes and 80% of the English (most of them being elderly or middle class).

    In contrast, as the RIC showed, there are plenty of folks who can be convinced.

    If with the same money and time you could convince 1 out of 100 in the first group but 50 out of 100 in the second group, would it be wise to target the first group?

    As we found out, the folks of Glasgow, Dundee, W. Dunbartonshire and N. Lanarkshire voted Yes, thanks to RIC.

    While the elderly, middle class, English in the “SNP heartlands” voted No.

  181. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    ‘By my reckoning, 70% of the elderly, 90% of the middle classes and 80% of the English (most of them being elderly or middle class).’

    Nice, nay Rubenesquely rounded figures there.

    Please show your workings – elsewise, nul points.

  182. Rock says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    “Please show your workings – elsewise, nul points.”

    I don’t need any points from you.

    If you think the elderly, the middle classes and the English are good targets for winning over to the Yes side, have the guts to say so.

  183. Ken500 says:

    Sleeping on the job

    Needed more Wee Blue Books. Need them now for the May Holyrood Campaign. Run out the last time. Need another run. Need at least another 200,000 for distribution now. There will be more campaigning unemployed Oil workers to finish the job.

    It just needs 200,000 to swing IndyRef2. Only 2% needed now. The support is mounting.

    Cameron’s coming to Scotland to help Independence along. Giving it a boost.

  184. jdman says:

    showy but worthless
    apt huh?

  185. Ken500 says:

    The unknown, guessing IndyRef1 blame game. That is past and counter productive. Just get on and finish the job.

    Bridges to build, vulnerable to save, Education/NHS to support, redundant weaponry to ban, corrupt taxes to sort, Europeans to unite. Everyone that can needs to lend a hand. All hands on deck to get rid of Hands and the pig face sucker Union. They have had their bacon secretly creaming off the fat of the land.

  186. Ken500 says:

    Duncan McNeil wants the Papers of the Deal, Labour fought tooth and nail to prevent. Duplious lying Labour tried to stop every power coming to Scotland but wants to know the details, that are available. Typical stinking rats in a sack. Drowning in their own piss. Sinking fast. Good bye and good riddance. May 2016.

    Illegal wars, redundant weaponry, tax evasion and banking fraud, expenses scandal, sanctioning and starving the vulnerable. Labour/Unionist gall. The Chilcot Report 6 years late and being covered up by Unionists. Brown and Blair should be in jail.

  187. Ken500 says:


    What bank is the sorting code? It has changed.

  188. Andrew Mclean says:

    Ken 500

    Reading your post and though correct, I thought bit strong for breakfast, then I remembered

    President Clinton lied about a blown job, and was dragged through the mud then thrown out of office!

    Blair and his labour cronies lied about a war and blew hundreds of innocent men women and children to bits, burning them alive in Sexy ” shock and awe”
    Now he makes millions talking shite!

    Only in this bastard UK is it OK.

  189. louis.b.argyll says:

    Would it be presumptuous to assert that the older one is, the less likely one is, to see war as BAD FOR BOTH SIDES.?

  190. Gullane No 4 says:

    Attacking the elderly, English and middle class is a pretty negative if not lazy option.

    I know of a 92 year old lifelong Tory voter who voted SNP for the first time, plenty middle class SNP voters where I live and many of of the English folk I know are staunch SNP supporters.

  191. Grouse Beater says:

    Confused by the In and Out chatter of politicians over the European Union? Some thoughts here:

  192. Ken500 says:

    Putting you off your toast. Only time available.

    Politicians and their associates are molesting and abusing children and covering it up. Putting them in jail or killing them. Trafficking children for abuse. They keep it secret under a Official Secrets Act. There is a major cover up by the Administration. The facts come out after the Politicians are dead. It’s a public scandal of gigantic proportions. Truly shocking. @ Craig Murray blog

    ‘Spotlight’ A award winning film.

    Vulnerable children have been placed in foster care of known abusers by Social Services.

    The reason for named adult in an emergency, for vulnerable children. To protect children’s best interest. The authorities need to be accountable. No cover up.

  193. mealer says:

    Rock 3 March 11.52,
    I think you must have an unusual definition of “middle class” to conclude that 90% of them voted No.Could you give your definition of middle class,please?

    You make a very valid point about concentrating resources where votes will be easier gathered.Its a strategy that has advantages in terms of bang for your buck.I don’t spend too much time on lost causes,but it’s good to let them know we’re there and we’re not going away.Shake their confidence.Bolster the feeling that independence is inevitable.I think it’s advantageous to be seen to be a nationwide,inclusive independence movement.

    Of course,if more folk got off their backsides and actually did some work for the independence campaign our difference of opinion on strategy would be far less relevant.

  194. Jim says:

    Totally off topic but I thought I would share this with you:

    “I worked in Inverness for a while in the nineties with the Fire Brigade. I vividly remember a fire in a house when the elderly gentleman wouldnt let us in. I explained that it was the Fire Brigade and he should open the door. He was having none of it though and refused us entry telling us he didnt believe it. I told him to look out his front window and he would see a big red fire engine. I heard his footsteps going towards the window just as my radio went to tell me the big red fire engine was in fact parked out the back.

    Now I was really struggling. I asked him if he could make his way to the back he would see it there. He told me he wouldnt be falling for that one again and threatened to call the police and the ( real ) Fire Brigade. Desperate, I uttered the sentence Look, if you open the letterbox Ill show you my helmet!!! Just for a second there was utter silence from both him and the Fire crew………………………..and then carnage!! That one sentence is one that is right up there with things I wish I could un say.”

  195. Gary45% says:

    Radio shortbread talking about the weekend clean up for Queenie. Some patronising prick trying to make the case for the empire.

    Just a thought, 2 new headings for the weekend.
    Get busy for Lizzie, or The weekend agenda clean up for Brenda.

  196. birnie says:

    FWIW – I’m 79, middle class and English public school educated. I’m still indy and SNP.

  197. Legerwood says:

    Andrew McLean

    President Clinton was not thrown out of office. He served two full terms as president which is the legal maximum under US law.

  198. Andrew Mclean says:


    Oh you rebel!

    “Let them call me a rebel and welcome. I feel no concern from it. But should I suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.”

  199. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    ‘I don’t need any points from you.’

    Well that’s good, cause you’re not getting any.

    These are your words:

    ‘By my reckoning, 70% of the elderly, 90% of the middle classes and 80% of the English (most of them being elderly or middle class).’

    Let’s have another try – can you provide any sources backing up any of those? Even one?

  200. Andrew Mclean says:

    but he was impeached, maybe if he was involved in mass murder he would have gotten away with it!

  201. alexicon says:

    Hi all,

    I’m just about to make a donation to this wonderful website and I was wondering if there was anyone in the running for any of the perks on offer, so I could put their name against it.
    Anyone know?

  202. Andrew Mclean says:

    In My Email today,

    We’re trying to get in touch with the Australian couple who discovered Willie McRae in his car on the Saturday morning. Do you have their contact details or know anyone who does?

    If you can help please get in touch with us on mail [at] markmacnicol [dot] com
    Also if you know of anyone with information you think may be relevant please let us know.

    pass it on!

  203. Macart says:

    You’re not a government worth the name if you can’t at least talk to ALL of those in your care, whether they support you or not.

    You’re not a movement worth the name if you don’t at least try to communicate and encourage others to walk with you. 45% would remain 45% if you slammed the door in the faces of those you need to make that figure grow.

    Yes, there are those who are utterly ideologically opposed to an independent Scotland. For them Westminster government and rule by an establishment that doesn’t give shit about their existence is all they know and all they want. No, I don’t get it either, but there you go.

    How and ever polling figures have suggested this core of no change/status quo unionism is approx. 26% of our electorate. That leaves approximately 29% of our electorate approachable and open to discussion and persuasion. I don’t care that they voted NO in 2014, that was almost eighteen months ago and they will have had their own reasons.

    Our job is to convince them that we have better reasons for changing that vote at second time of asking and there will be a second time.

  204. Cuilean says:

    I gleefully nabbed the £50 ‘perk’. The auld dear chucked in a fiver too but couldn’t afford £25 for your cheapest ‘perk’.

    A lot of people will love the coin perks, if they can afford them, and they are easy to post which is a big consideration, I am sure, but I personally found them uninspiring.

    £25 is a big slice from many weekly budgets, which explains the prolific smaller donations of £5 & £10. It would have been nice to have had a ‘perk’ to cater for all budgets, say for £10.

    It must be time consuming and expensive to post out hundreds of ‘perks’ but I am sure lots of ‘Wingers’ would happily volunteer dispatch duties.

    My auld dear might have been tempted to pitch in another fiver, if she was getting a wee ‘perk’. It’s all psychological -marketing.

    Personally I’d have loved a ‘Wings’ golf brolly, something which really ‘shouts’ out your allegiance, to the annoyance of Spanners everywhere, (especially satisfying to model in Yoon golf clubhouse enclaves and, of course, Ardrossan), no wee coins just hoarded away in a drawer! I might have paid at least another £50 for a brolly ‘perk’ like that.

    Mind, I’m sure the coins will end up in museums, in years to come, in the museums ‘Scottish Struggle For Indy’ section, or on the Scottish Broadcasting Corporation’s ‘Antiques Roadfair’, by which time any hypothetical ‘Wings’ brolly will have blown awa lang syne or been nicked by outraged retired ‘Yoons’ fae the clubhoose or ‘Spanners’ in Ardrossan.

  205. Dr Jim says:

    This Fracking thing they’re banging on about

    Is it not the case that an outright ban on Fracking allows for a legal challenge given that the UK Guv has authorised it’s use that challenge would be in English courts and would be allowed on that basis

    But the Moratorium put in place by the SNP allows for no legal challenge because they control the land powers and that kicks Fracking into the long grass for as long as the SNP want, which could be forever
    If that’s the case and Labour know it does that mean that Labour actually wants Fracking to go ahead but just wants to lay the blame on the SNP

    Anybody know if any of that’s correct?

  206. Dan Huil says:

    OT and sorry if this has mentioned already: just tried to log on to Derek Bateman’s blog and got repeated warnings – possible damage to PC etc. Anyone experienced the same?

  207. K1 says:

    Cuilean I agree with you, I’ve not much money and thought it would’ve been nice if perks were available for smaller contributions, but also thought of the logistics and affordability from Rev’s pov.

    All the same it would make some sense if the smaller donations making up a sizeable chunk of the crowdfund had been offered some of the more ‘visible’ perks, as this would have in and of itself created more advertising for Wings on the street level…especially the shopping bags?

    if the shopping bags had been a fiver perk, I would have bought 5 of them over the month of the crowdfund, and given them to friends as gifts. I can afford that ‘spread’ but not 25 quid in a oner. I would imagine the lightweight of them wouldn’t be too hefty post wise either 🙂

  208. Ken500 says:

    Scotland is half empty. There will be possible places were it is safe to frack.

    The argument is to ban Fracking in Scotland while using fracked Gas from the US – destroying their environment. Fracked gas is being used in Scotland (UK), imported Into Grangemouth now. Scotland is using fracked Gas from elsewhere while the Scottish Oil sector is not working because of the 60% tax imposed by Westminster.

    Is it right that fracking is banned in Scotland when imported frscked Gas is being used in Scotland (UK)? The Scottish Oil sector is destroyed by 60% tax and Gas and Oil is being imported into Scotland. Scotlland is losing £Billion in use and exports, because of Westminster policies. The production costs are not too high because if the high tax when the price has fallen. It is not the low price that is stopping production it is the high tax.

    The tax should be related to price. Ie $120 – 80%+ tax. $30 – 40%+tax. $60 – 50%+ tax. $90 – 60%+tax Accumulating. .

  209. Paula Rose says:

    @Dr Jim you may well find this of interest as regards fracking and the moratorium/ban debate.

  210. Nana says:

    @Dr Jim

    I had lots of links re labour and fracking including a list of labour, tory, lib dems who have an interest. I can only find this one right now.

    As far as Slab stirring it right now, they will be well aware of why Scotgov have a moratorium but as usual they lie hoping enough folk who do not know the truth will fall for their lies. Usual slab liars.

  211. louis.b.argyll says:

    Gullane 4,
    We are not ‘attacking’ the elderly.

    We are identifying their inherent inability to understand that..

    …WAR IS BAD..

    Too many, and NOBODY IS SAYING ALL, over 65s, fit a bill at odds with their own offspring.

  212. Bob Mack says:


    Yes,we are trying to allocate donations for Robert Peffers our resident historian to get him a gold Wings badge. He is worth every penny.

    You have to go to off topic and credit your donation to his name.

    @Cearc is collating all donations to this endeavour.

  213. James Barr Gardner says:

    Is Grangemouth the only refinery processing fracked gas/oil in the UK?

    Is it possible that the red/blue tories assumed that wee scotland would roll over and be fracked stupid, so that is why the storage tanks were built at Grangemouth?

    Is the fact that Grangemouth docks could not handle the refined products would result in them being shipped south for export, another win for English exports?

    There seems to be a well known picture building up here, I think, myself and many others have seen this many times before, it usually ends with the successful production methods/plant/key staff being shipped south yet again! Scotland shafted, robbed and poorer once more, westminster elites purring!

    Stop this now! Vote SNP 1 X 2 in May. Vote In for EURef June.

  214. Fred says:

    A pair of brass necks in todays National, first-up ids the Tory leader of South Ayrshire council Bill McIntosh who berates the Scottash Government for passing on Tory cuts to the peeps of South Ayrshire who voted Tory in the first place.

    Second is Fauldhoose’s finest, Neil Findlay MSP who is demanding an apology from Ruth the tank-straddler to every Scot affected by Tory policies. Attacking the Tories is a novel turnaround for Slab leaders but this is exactly what Findlay voted for in 2014.

  215. Hoss Mackintosh says:


    see link above…

    Gold Wings are going to Pete the Camera and Nana already and hopefully Robert Peffers – needs ~£200 more.

    Post any contributions on O/T to @Cearc to let her know.

  216. alexicon says:

    Thanks Hoss,

    50 quid donated for Robert’s perk.

  217. louis.b.argyll says:

    Rock, without targets (old, young, materialist, rich, lazy, evil, whatever) there is no argument, no politics.. are killing/wasting discussion by protecting the (old) notion that (just because they are) old people deserve more respect than those more worthy..trying to make a Winger ‘admit’ that they are targeting the old. There is a minister for old people ffs.

  218. louis.b.argyll says:

    . reasons to donate..

    Rev Stuart, Wingers,

    YOU & Wings we have turned

    Before, in politics,
    the truth was only ever
    a perspective, made less
    relevant than selected
    Something to be
    bypassed by the lust for

    By telling truths about others lies you PROTECT THE TRUTH ITSELF.

    The spectacular smokescreen that is the the no-‘campaign’ gives rich pickings, placing truth at the top table of interests.

  219. East Neuker says:

    Dan Huil @ 1201pm –
    OT -Re Derek Bateman’s blog, I am getting the same red page / warnings and the same thing is now happening if I go onto Munguin’s Republic site What’s going on? Rev, do you know?

  220. Rock says:

    Gullane No 4,

    “Attacking the elderly, English and middle class is a pretty negative if not lazy option.

    I know of a 92 year old lifelong Tory voter who voted SNP for the first time, plenty middle class SNP voters where I live and many of of the English folk I know are staunch SNP supporters.”

    I am talking about support for independence, not support for the SNP in this case.

    They are happy to support the SNP because the SNP is doing an excellent job in governing.

    But the vast majority of them are diehard unionists who will never support independence.

  221. Iain says:

    Looks like the yoons are still fucked, what are they going to do, their empire is finished. The Tories are split, their time is over. The red Tories are confused to say the least. Independence is coming,all we have to do is work hard for the coming elections. A free Scotland is coming.

  222. Rock says:


    I think you must have an unusual definition of “middle class” to conclude that 90% of them voted No.Could you give your definition of middle class,please?”

    Those with comfortable incomes and capital who don’t want a fair and equitable society in Scotland at their expense.

    “I don’t spend too much time on lost causes”

    In my view, the vast majority of the elderly, the middle class, and the English are lost causes.

  223. Rock says:


    “FWIW – I’m 79, middle class and English public school educated. I’m still indy and SNP.”

    Good of you, but you will have to admit that you are in a tiny minority in your group.

  224. Rock says:


    “A pair of brass necks in todays National”

    I should have warned you guys that The National is nothing more than a cash cow for The Herald.

  225. Iain says:

    We must win all the generations of Scotland, blaming age groups is not the way of a democratic, inclusive Scotland. We must include every Scot. Petty blame must be a thing of the past, we have to move on. We are going to win, that is inevitable. We should not lower ourselves by blaming generations, we as a nation are bigger and better than that. We cannot blame the older generation for our current situation. Our campaign must include all generations.

  226. Rock says:


    “45% would remain 45% if you slammed the door in the faces of those you need to make that figure grow.”

    45% will remain 45% if we fail to learn from the mistakes we made last time.

    We wasted a lot of time and money on diehard British nationalists who were never going to vote Yes.

    The same time and money if given to RIC would have resulted in even more Yes voters in Glasgow and Dundee where the turnouts were much lower than elsewhere.

    Our general appeal is to everyone. But our resources have to be put to the best use possible.

    To many folks posting here seem incapable of separating the wheat from the chaff.

  227. Rock says:


    “We must win all the generations of Scotland, blaming age groups is not the way of a democratic, inclusive Scotland. We must include every Scot. Petty blame must be a thing of the past, we have to move on. We are going to win, that is inevitable. We should not lower ourselves by blaming generations, we as a nation are bigger and better than that. We cannot blame the older generation for our current situation. Our campaign must include all generations.”

    The idealising can come after independence.

    To get independence in the first place, we have to ignore the diehard unionists and instead concentrate on the ‘soft’ No’s who might more readily be won over.

    If we insist on “embracing” Tories, the British nationalist elderly, the selfish middle class and the unionist English, we are too stupid to be independent.

  228. Iain says:

    We should not argue that Scotland needs to be independent. We should campaign for the May election, the June referendum and the 2017 council elections. Scotland needs patriots not wingers. Snp 1 and 2.

  229. Thepnr says:

    Hey! How thick are you lot?

    Do you not get it yet, if you want to win the next referendum stop buying the National it keeps the Herald afloat. Ignore your old folk, they are all Unionist and a waste of space.

    Be especially suspicious of the English and middle class, they will not help your cause. Especially the middle class 90% of them will never vote Yes, especially the English ones.

    Now have you got that?

  230. Gary45% says:

    The wife has just played Pig Fucker Dave on the twitter site trying to be Scottish.
    It is nearly as embarrassing as a Scot trying to be English.(They know who they are)
    I saw Ruthie Jong Un throwing a Wugga ball to Andy??? (ex butchers apron northern branch member) WHAT A FUC*ING SITE.

    It reminded me I have an old 90s grand slam Wugga shirt, anyone can have it ,donation to Sam (the Fiji soldier)

    After the referendum I would NEVER put it on my back.

  231. Gary45% says:

    Christ, the wife is going nuts reading the twitter site.
    Dipity spouting shite as usual.
    I wasn’t going to write this but I have had enough of Duggers garbage.(Tell us YOUR manifesto)

    Freeze Dipity’s face on the telly, With that new hair cut it looks likes a big scary face peering out from a set of curtains. Looks a bit like the Scream.

  232. Jim says:

    I wouldn’t pish on the National if it was on fire.

    They have done nothing more than tap into a market, fuck them.

  233. Gary45% says:

    I have been laughing at this all day.
    Just as well you weren’t German or you would have been known as Helmut Schoen.

  234. Robert Peffers says:

    @Iain says: 4 March, 2016 at 9:53 pm:

    “A free Scotland is coming”.

    Actually, Iain, it is quite laughable when you consider it.
    You asked, “What are they going to do”, and the answer is plainly that they will suffer it for, by fighting so hard to retain Scotland while at the same time imposing EVEL upon the UK they show how bloody stupid and confused they are.

    Look at it logically. A Free Kingdom of Scotland means there is also a free Kingdom of England for the term, “United Kingdom”, describes only the two kingdoms that have their signatures upon the Treaty of Union that formed the United Kingdom.

    Now that Kingdom of England, as opposed to the country of England, comprises three countries. England, Wales and N.Ireland and that is the legal Status Quo Ante of the bipartite UK splitting up. Their whole concept of EVEL was to achieve just exactly that.

    So what the hell are they upset about? The United Lingdom Parliament operating under EVAL is so wrong and anti-democratic that no international court could honestly uphold it and the fact they force it upon Scotland signifies they could have had their English votes for English laws simply by allowing the Scots to become independent.

    So it isn’t just the Red Tories that are confused – it’s the rainbow Tory Establishment.

  235. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    Oh FFS, you’re back again?!

    Spare us the fact-free fluffery and give us some meat to put on the 70%, 80%, 90% bones you keep blethering about.

    Otherwise, TAFTY.

  236. Dorothy Devine says:

    Macart having read that most heart breaking of tales I too feel that we as Wingers could do something.

    The only person with the ability to raise awareness further that I can think of is Joanna Lumley – seemed like a bonny fechter when she helped the Gurkhas.

    Please excuse any and all errors as I amworking on a daft wee android

  237. Macart says:


    I know I bang on about it a bit, but this is why I like to remind folks to give generously to local charities, food banks, rag bags, clothing drives. The people (that would be human f**king beings) that those bastards in Westminster cast aside, we need to be ready to help.

    Helping individuals is a rarity and to be applauded, no question. But contributing as regularly as we are able to help the many, in however small a way, can have so much more impact. As the author pointed out, what he could do is being done, what we can do is make sure we provide the safety net the state won’t.

    I know its hard for folks right now and it feels as though our pockets are being pulled in a dozen different directions at once, but a bag of food, old clothes, even some time to spare. It can make a difference.

  238. What’s up with the National today? Is it reporting the news today or something ?

  239. starlaw says:

    Who owns the mining rights in Scotland. If fracking went ahead all profit would be to Westminster. Best left well alone.

  240. Fred says:

    If the Herald vanished from the news-stands next week it would make no difference to anything apart from Magnus Gardham having to sign on.

  241. Fireproofjim says:

    Oh dear! What a surprise. Rock and Jim are decrying the National ( which they never read).
    If they had their way the only Independence supporting paper would be boycotted into extinction, and the news stands would have nothing but UKOK papers.
    The fact that it is published by the Herald group seems to excite them, but the Herald group is a massive conglomerate which seeks out special interest groups and tries to fill that niche in the market, like “Farming Today” for example.
    As far as the Herald group are concerned, they have no particular concern for the politics of the paper. It is just a gap in the market which they have filled. Normal market economics.
    Good for them I say. We need it and will need it until the biased MSM and BBC develop a more balanced view of Independence.

  242. I’ve got an idea, guys. Why don’t we get a newspaper which would unambiguously on its front page state its support for Scottish independence with stuff from Mhairi Black, Paul Kavanagh (Wee Ginger Dug),Pat Kane, Patrick Harvie, Angry Salmond, Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp,Lesley Riddoch,Pete Wishart,Cat Boyd, Michael Gray, Natalie McGarry,Carolyn Leckie,articles in Gaelic and Scots, lots of photos and comment from Nicola Sturgeon, George Kerevan and others and Greg Moodie’s comic strip, terrific articles on Scottish history and four pages of interesting and intelligent readers’ letters.
    Oh, somebody’s already done that?

  243. Ruby says:

    East Neuker says:
    4 March, 2016 at 6:15 pm

    Dan Huil @ 1201pm –
    OT -Re Derek Bateman’s blog, I am getting the same red page / warnings and the same thing is now happening if I go onto Munguin’s Republic site What’s going on? Rev, do you know?

    Ruby replies

    Video worth watching.

    It seems the Derek Bateman blog has been hacked now who would do a thing like that?

  244. Ruby says:

    Why are there people who don’t want us to read The National or Derek Bateman’s blog?

    Would these same people like us to stop reading Wings?

  245. Fred says:

    Rock is a plant, a cunningly constructed mole, it’s so obvious really.

  246. Ruby says:

    Story in Herald today about hackers.

  247. Lollysmum says:

    Munguins Republic is working OK for me

  248. Rock says:


    “They have done nothing more than tap into a market”


    “It is just a gap in the market which they have filled. Normal market economics.”

    Can someone spot the difference?

  249. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    You’re back again?

    Okay, here’s a customised quiz – it’s just for you!

    Now, nae Buster Keaton, right? You’re not allowed to go back and check what you wrote…

    Which of these:


    matches which of these:

    The ‘English’
    The ‘Middle Class’
    The ‘Elderly’

    according to your own estimation of the demographic groups responsible for voting ‘No’?

    You got one shot Rock…one shot…

  250. Fireproofjim says:

    Rock a@9.28
    Just trying to make it simple for you, as it seems difficult for you to appreciate the value of support for the cause.

  251. Thepnr says:



    “They have done nothing more than tap into a market”


    “It is just a gap in the market which they have filled. Normal market economics.”

    “Can someone spot the difference?”

    Yeah, I can.

    Jim would piss on the National in his own words. Fireproofjim prefers to buy it.

  252. Grouse Beater says:

    Rock: I never make lengthy posts.

    I said lengthy ‘rantnot lengthy ‘posts’.
    And in case you insist on misinterpreting, I mean post after post saying the same thing aggressively.

  253. Ken500 says:

    75% of the Herald readers support Independence, even more support the SNP. Even more of the National readership support the SNP/Independence.

    The Herald/papers publishes stories for clickbait for advertising revenues.

    Independence/SNP supporters buy and read other papers as well. For whatever reason. They don’t believe a word of it. Some people who support the SNP/Independence buy three papers some days. They would be better buying a good book to read. Newspaper readership proves nothing.

    Why don’t serial writers number their books. So people don’t buy them twice (forget the titles) and have to take them back.

    The Polls are crap. The piper pays the tube and gets the result they want. The Polls are analysed badly by incompetent pollsters for £Million to try and screw the result. The Pollsters are deceiving. Do not believe a word of it.

    They illegally help the Bookies to cheat folk out of their cash, for backhanders/bribes.

  254. Ken500 says:

    Some folk just like a piss take argument. Give it a rest. All. Boring

  255. Grouse Beater says:

    Ken: “Some folk just like a piss take argument. Give it a rest. All. Boring”

    Or avoid assuming the role of head teacher.

  256. Ken500 says:

    A relatively small Poll of two thousand+ people is totally inadequate to give an accurate comprehensive study of the demographics of how people voted. Totally meaningless.

    Polls can only reflect simple results/questions. YES/NO or whatever. To do a comprehensive study would take too time and cost too much money for the Pollsters to sell on. It would be too expensive. Virtually impossible without seeing the result. Going though the (secret) voting slips – paper returns. That is how the Pollsters make their (I’ll gotten) gains (£Millions) selling the Poll results on.

    The Politicians were illegally accessing the results by viewing the returned voting papers with impunity. Wrong for so many reasons. The politicians tipped of their mates at the Betting companies for money/funding. Backhanders.Totally corrupt.

    The Pollster are totally corrupt. If they get it wrong they lose out on £Millions – no one will use them. Their methology can be corrupt. They are supposed to stick to properly set down guide lines and rules. There was an Inquiry after the last election, as too why they go it wrong. Bad analyses. It was swept under the carpet. They were not sanctioned as they should have been. They should have been fined or their licence withdrawn.

    Polling is big business. Can sway the result.

    No one knows the demographics of how people voted because it was secret. For a reason. To prevent fraud.

  257. Grouse Beater says:

    Your weekend entertainment – a funny Coen Brothers comedy:

  258. Ken500 says:

    Or assuming the role of fillibuster. Want another argument. Bored

  259. Ken500 says:

    ‘Brooklyn’ and ‘Suffragettes’ are on Sky – £4.99p historical context. Women’s rights etc. Murdoch never misses a commerial trick. Without the popcorn, drinks popcorn, sweeties and ice-cream. Mother’s Day. Give your mum a treat. Don’t go out the door.

    Murdoch and Jerry enter a commercial alliance, love of money. Beauty and the Beast. Buying respectability. Twa tax evading Non Doms get hitched together. Murdoch’s second wife came from Glasgow. His kids are half Scottish. Declan, James etc. The blott on the landscape. The daughter makes Sky programmes films etc. The blott on the landscape. There is no escape from the brainwashing.

    Marx said, ‘Marriage was prostitution’. Not Groucho, married a few times.

    Time to get the Murray tickets, Dunblane anniversary coming up. The abuse and death of children and the cover up by Unionist politicians. Under the illegal 100 year Official Secrets Act. So that the perpetrators can not be apprehended but go free. There is no justice.

  260. Breeks says:

    Curious thing about the age demographic; folks who are 70 were 33 when Scotland’s democratic majority was set to one side with Yes for devolution in 1979 delivering the No in effect.
    I’d be more interested to examine why the balance remains in a broad state of equilibrium despite Scotland suffering one slap in the face after another.
    We suffer everything from the wholesale exploitation of our resources, we take to the McCrone report with all the enthusiasm of a librarian saying shoosh. We allow ourselves to suffer hostile propaganda which smears and belittles our elected Scottish government, and even a false promise like the Vow delivered when Nationalist fervour was theoretically at its height is meekly accepted after some rather lacklustre argument for appearances sake.

    If arguments were apples, we on the YES pro Indy side would have them by the barrel. Unionists on the other hand cannot articulate a progressive argument for the Union to exist.

    We focus ourselves upon polishing these arguments, keeping them fresh, and collecting new ones whenever they arise. Unionism doesn’t bother its arse, but sniggers and snears at our efforts.

    I think we need some hard talking about our fundamental strategy.

    I recognise some logic in the softly softly creeping pace of democratic evolution, where logic will prevail if we just give it enough time. I don’t disagree with that, but I’m not entirely comfortable that Independence delivered in that way will be an event where opinion just creeps over 50%.

    My bigger difficulty is less tangible. I don’t understand how and why Scotland can suffer one outrageous abuse after another, 1979, Thatcher, our heavy industry, our fishing fleets,… we all know the list. What is wrong with our collective psyche that such outrages don’t provoke open revolution? We are not a meek people by nature.
    We are kept in our place by a mechanism; a method for controlling a populace just like religions have been controlling the masses for centuries.
    If we want to be the Independent country we all feel to be the natural state of affairs which is out of kilter with our current here and now reality, we need to address this mechanism which controls us.

    I’m not saying we stop harvesting the apples, but all the apples in the world will still not be enough.

    There is nothing mystical about our control, its not like etherial religion running through an uneducated population, it is wall to wall 24-7 propagana delivered by the TV, newspapers and radio.

    We are not in a battle between two democracies. We are using, or trying to use, democratic principles to undermine and overcome an oppresive and thoroughly undemocratic occupation in all aspects except actual fact.

    Until that penny drops…

  261. Breeks says:

    In fact, thinking about it, maybe there is a great parralel between Scotlands position and a religion. I know, I know, but hear me out.

    The enemy, (don’t like the word enemy, but..) of religion is secular belief. Secular people believe their belief system will ultimately win because it is built upon knowledge, science, and proofs. But religion is by no means defenceless, because it is built on faith. What cannot be denied, actually can be. Denial is all you require, job done.

    We’ve all seen Paul the movie right? Secular values triumph over faith values after an instant education? Ok.

    Here is Scotland. We Independentists are the secular believers, and all we need to do to make other secular believers is expose them to truth. That’s fine. Good theory.
    Problem is, many Unionists are well healed in faith; dare I say it blind faith. They can deny logic, deny truth, they can reconstruct their faith to truncate and cauterize any secular argument. The best reasoned argument in the world just doesn’t penetrate. They’re not stupid, but faith is strong in them and shuts out what it doesn’t like. And if you don’t share their belief, you are a heretic and fair game to be denounced. The harder we secular heretics are to ignore, the stronger these Unionist shut their eyes and ears and just pray we won’t be standing there when they open their eyes.

    So here we sit, comfortable in our logic that secularism cannot be eroded by faith, so sooner or later it must prevail. Yeay! Scotland wins independence. Doesn’t it?
    I hope so. That’s the camp I’m in. But I don’t think we should underestimate the stoicism of pure blind faith.

    If it’s all about education… denied access to public media, it will be a drip fed process until or unless something opens the floodgates.

  262. gordon ford says:

    Hi Breeks…….
    The reason we are (and I HATE to use the word)subservient is simple. Its called Propaganda—–Press, TV,Big business, London Govt etc. and don’t forget the Scottish cringe. Three hundred years of being told we are too wee, too stupid and too poor is also a massive contributory factor.
    “Scotland receiving one slap in the face after another” and accepting it is the all to predictable result …….

  263. Chic McGregor says:

    OT Some fun questions re the US Presidential race.

    Given Trump’s predeliction for naming his possessions after himself, if he wins, will the USA or NYC become Trumpton?

    If Clinton wins, will Bill become known as the First Gentleman of the Whitehouse?

    If Sanders wins, which organisation would have first dibs at assassination?

    If Cruz wins will they rename the missile?

    Which of the 4 would increase and which would decrease Boris’s chances most?

  264. Chic McGregor says:

    Daft question supplementary.

    If Boris wins will he indulge in Ping Pong diplomacy with Pyong Yang, or just build a wall to keep the Wiff Waff out?

  265. Chic McGregor says:

    “The harder we secular heretics are to ignore, the stronger these Unionist shut their eyes and ears and just pray we won’t be standing there when they open their eyes.”

    Reminds me of this:

  266. Read my Sunday Herald. A more serious read than most. Not one article or piece in any way supportive of the SNP or the Scottish Government. Several articles destructive. Particularly infantile offering from Macwhirter which reads as puff for Kezia Dugdale.
    I don’t think there are enough RISE supporters in Scotland to keep this thing alive but that’s now where it appears to going. Into political lala land with the self indulgent, unbalanced impractical left.
    This is the second Sunday Herald I have found well off the mark and I may soon be reading no Sunday newspaper.

  267. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dave Mcewan Hill thanks for head up re Sunday Herald, saves me a trip to get it, I normally pick it up as soon as to ensure getting a copy but was slithering today. Bought but never even got round to buying last couple of weeks. Oh well only the National left 🙁

  268. Bill McLean says:

    DMcH – Totally agree with you re the Sunday Herald. McWhirter, a fine writer, appears not to know what he thinks, feels or means any more!

  269. Grouse Beater says:

    David: “Read my Sunday Herald. A more serious read than most. Not one article or piece in any way supportive of the SNP or the Scottish Government.”

    I had a run in with the open-minded editor the other week. I pointed out – gently in one sentence – his newspaper is still riddled with quiet neo-liberal sentiment despite its pretension to support self-determination. (Usual replies take the form of ‘independence is separate’ from the SNP, as if political parties are lining up to offer variations.)

    Anyhow, taking my remark as a personal insult rather than aimed as it was at the general drift of the Sunday Herald, he was furious. He posted derisive comments to his online pals mocking my comment, playing to the gallery, claiming I haven’t read his rag, all in good troll banter style, of course, finally referring me to his book. (Must try that diversionary riposte one day.)

    Before I could explain I got blocked. What at tolerant chap.

    Macwhirter’s column is an off-the-cuff, what can I say this week? load of bald statements that amount to waffle. Not his usual standard.

  270. Dan Huil says:

    McWhirter has always blown hot and cold about independence and the SNP.

    The Sunday Herald now covers foreign affairs better than it covers Scottish affairs.

  271. brobb says:

    And this is why you have over &60,000 raised in just 6 days! Hats off to you for clarifying the SNP council tax position and how/why it changed since 2003. Most of us haven’t the time or energy to trawl back through the archives to find out what exactly was said and why. Thanks and keep up the good work

  272. Grouse Beater at 1.59

    ‘independence is separate’ from the SNP is the sort of reaction one can expect from a particular type of political commentator who doesn’t get it (but thinks he does).

    Independence is a ALL about the SNP and the hitch-hikers and band wagon jumpers we see trying to snatch some indy support from the SNP will get off and dismount the independence train if the SNP support falls.

  273. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “I said lengthy ‘rant‘ not lengthy ‘posts’.
    And in case you insist on misinterpreting, I mean post after post saying the same thing aggressively.”

    This is what you had posted:

    “That’s some lengthy rant from Rock. How can one person sustain such anger and not burst a blood vessel? Or take a toilet break? Impressive.”

    Point me to the lengthy rant you were talking about.

  274. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “I don’t think there are enough RISE supporters in Scotland to keep this thing alive but that’s now where it appears to going. Into political lala land with the self indulgent, unbalanced impractical left.”

    “This is the second Sunday Herald I have found well off the mark and I may soon be reading no Sunday newspaper.”

    “Independence is a ALL about the SNP and the hitch-hikers and band wagon jumpers we see trying to snatch some indy support from the SNP will get off and dismount the independence train if the SNP support falls.”

    Wait till The National starts promoting RISE and the Greens more heavily as we come closer to the election.

    You may have to sell your shares in Newsquest soon.

  275. Rock

    Can’t see any connection between the my first and second statements that you have run together. I have no problem with the National which continues to improve. The National and the Sunday Herald are edited and run by completely different teams.
    I had thought you would know that.
    I mean I don’t imagine the Beano and the Dundee Courier have a lot in common but they are published by the same outfit.
    On second thoughts some may think they do have lot in common.

  276. Fred says:

    McWhirter claims the SNP would be lost without Nicola as leader which is exactly what was said when Salmond went!

  277. Thepnr says:


    Do you anything POSITIVE to say? I’d like to hear it, suspect I’ll wait a long time.

  278. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,


    Can’t see any connection between the my first and second statements that you have run together.”

    Your blind faith in The National, or your shares in Newsquest, prevent you from seeing the connection in your own posts.

    The National will do its best to reduce the SNP’s vote by heavily promoting RISE and the Greens as we come closer to the election.

    It is the unionists’ agenda to weaken the SNP’s strength by any means possible.

    Having failed to do it with direct attacks, they are doing it in a hidden manner.

    Despite its window dressing, The National does not support independence and certainly does not support the SNP.

    At least you have started noticing the Sunday Herald’s true colours.

  279. Rock says:



    Do you anything POSITIVE to say? I’d like to hear it, suspect I’ll wait a long time.”

    I take it that you regard my repeated calls advising folks to vote SNP+SNP in May as not positive.

  280. Thepnr says:


    I’ll give you that, now how do you propose that we get Yes support for an Independent Scotland from 45% to 50% +1?

  281. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “The National and the Sunday Herald are edited and run by completely different teams.”

    So are The Guardian and The Mail.

    But it is become increasingly clear that both have the same hidden establishment agenda.

    Both are war mongerers for example. Poly Toynbee is no better than Melanie Phillips.

    When will you realise that they are all in it together?

    They are not friends of Scotland.

  282. Thepnr says:

    There are as many grains of sand on Portobello beach as there are Rocks posting on Wings.

  283. Rock says:


    “I’ll give you that, now how do you propose that we get Yes support for an Independent Scotland from 45% to 50% +1?”

    Start reaching more of the folks that RIC so successfully reached.

    Stop wasting limited resources on trying to convince diehard British nationalists, the vast majority of the elderly, the middle class and the English.

    The bitter truth might not sound “positive” to you, but if you want independence sooner rather than later, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    I am not attacking any group. I am just pointing out that that they are a lost cause for us and we should concentrate our efforts elsewhere.

  284. Thepnr says:


    This is where you and I totally disagree, we cannot and must not assume that any “group” is off limits. That is just wrong.

    You have as much chance of a persuading a middle class doctor or lawyer in Bearsden to vote for Yes as you do someone in a council house in Govan.

    Independence is neither about class, religion or age. Don’t blind yourself by sticking to false beliefs. Every No voter should be viewed as a potential Yes vote.

    Do you think the SNP got to where they are today by “grouping” people and alienating certain groups? Of course they didn’t.

    What point an Independent Scotland if it is not inclusive of all?

  285. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    ‘Start reaching more of the folks that RIC so successfully reached.’

    You clearly don’t know your RIC from your UKIP – you constantly berate The National for ‘promoting’ RISE as a cunning stunt to draw support from the SNP?

    Can we look forward to a day when you provide a fact – any fact at all – to support your grumpy tub-thumbing?

  286. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Apologies – my last should’ve read ‘thumping’ rather than ‘thumbing’, but given Rock’s tendency to hitch onto the most tenuous links in pursuit of his nebulous aims, it’s perhaps apt.

    And before I forget – to be able to write this…

    ‘Stop wasting limited resources on trying to convince diehard British nationalists, the vast majority of the elderly, the middle class and the English.’

    …and follow it, one paragraph later, with this…

    ‘I am not attacking any group.’

    requires a level of cynicism and/or chutzpah which is seldom seem on this site, and never heard from any genuine supporter of meaningful ‘democracy’.

  287. Grouse Beater says:

    Rock: “Point me to the lengthy rant you were talking about.”

    Groan! Troll tactics. Get a life.

  288. Ken500 says:

    75% of Herald readers support Independence – more support the SNP.

    A higher % National readers support Infependence/SNP

    SNP/Indepenence supporters buy MSM. Some buy three papers a day MSM. They do not believe a word of it. They could read a good book. Could serial authors no their book. So readers do not buy the same one twice and have to change it. They can’t remember the title.

  289. John Edgar says:

    Just read that Brent crude oil has gone up 18% and is now $40 a barrel. Shock and Horror. How will msm and Reporting Scotland react? What negative spin will tbey concoct? In particular, Alan Cochrane’s Zany Comedy Relief column in the Torygraph will have to say something positive for once. Oil on the up. Good for Westminster,no doubt in his lop-sided way of reasoning and baaad for Scotland?

  290. Gary45% says:

    John Edgar@4.50
    Torygraph headline will be.

    “Brent Crude nowhere near $100 per barrel”.
    Consumers will have to make choice as the rise in the cost of fuel will hit the poorest.
    Scotland still fuc*ed thanks to the SNP.

    Heard a wee bit of Radio Shortbread on the way home.
    John Swinney up in the islands talking to the locals about better phone signals etc.
    The useless Lib Dums said they were going to fix this years ago along with superfast broadband.
    Obviously failed with that project.(surprise? NO)
    So the SNP have taken this on and guess what? Joe Grimond will get all the credit for it.(It must be air up there)

  291. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    My heart is going pitter patter – the beginnings of personal politcal ambition or just an observation? Answers on a postcard please 🙂

    “Wings Over Scotland

    @stellarooney_ @chalmersgirl @Cuphook108 I could easily crowdfund an election campaign. I couldn’t crowdfund a health service”

  292. Rock says:


    “You have as much chance of a persuading a middle class doctor or lawyer in Bearsden to vote for Yes as you do someone in a council house in Govan.”

    No, you don’t.

    “Do you think the SNP got to where they are today by “grouping” people and alienating certain groups? Of course they didn’t.”

    Support for the SNP is not the same as support for independence.

    Areas with strong (middle class) SNP support voted No, areas with strong (working class) Labour support voted Yes.

    “What point an Independent Scotland if it is not inclusive of all?”

    We need to become independent first.

    We have been waiting for 300 years.

    If the likes of you and Ian Brotherhood have anything to do with it, we will still be waiting after another 600 years.

    We will only become independent when a majority of us is not too stupid to be independent.

  293. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “Rock: “Point me to the lengthy rant you were talking about.”

    Groan! Troll tactics. Get a life.”

    You were caught lying, but like Scottish Labour, you can’t admit it.

  294. Kenny says:

    We all know that, without Project Fear, “Better Together” basically falls apart, because there is no logical reason, especially economic, for the union (at least not for Scotland!). So interesting seeing Project Fear being highlighted for what it is in the EU ref campaign.

    The Telegraph is reporting that the head of one of the UK’s leading business groups “dramatically resigned” last night, accusing David Cameron of peddling “highly irresponsible” scare stories to keep Britain in the European Union.

    “John Longworth quit as director general of the British Chambers of Commerce after he was suspended by the board on Friday after he breached the BCC’s policy of neutrality on the June 23 referendum.”

    I cannot say I care much for either the Telegraph or the “BCC” (sounds like an organisation which would enjoy inflicting Project Fear on Scots). But it will be interesting if this opens a few more eyes in Jockland…

    I believe it is vital that the YES movement is as broad as possible. And it is great we have so many talented people outside the SNP — Lesley Riddoch, Robin McAlpine, Isobel Lindsay, Craig Murray, Elaine C Smith, Irvine Welsh, Tommy Sheridan, Cat Boyd, Susan Archibald, Business for Scotland, Women for Indy… the list simply goes on and on and could run for pages and pages.

    I do not think any other nation on earth has such talented and dedicated public figures. This all bodes well for post-indy and is yet another reason to vote for indy, because our country is surely in secure hands with them (strange how Labour would want to have the Eton boys in charge).

    If it were all just the SNP, this would not be healthy after indy. But until then, it is vital that we treat the SNP as our vangarde in Parliament and not work against them. I have no intention of ever voting SNP post-indy, but until then it is SNP x 2 for me. The thought of any Blue/Yellow/Red Tory trougher getting in is BAD NEWS FOR SCOTLAND! They are not in it to help anyone in Scotland, believe me!

    O/T I know this is Stu’s fundraiser and everyone is probably maxed out after helping the Orkney 4 as well and other causes, but I want to highlight a campaign which Natalie McGarry and Philippa Whitford kindly retweeted for me today.

    It is to raise money for a little Syrian kid who had his legs blown off in Syria and only today had an operation to remove shrapnel from his colon cancelled. The money goes direct to the boy’s family and you can vet the woman in charge of it all independently, she is Elisabetta Vittone (Twitter: @eli_vittone)

    And a Happy Women’s Day to all our braw women MPs and fellow indy activists!

  295. Rock says:


    “75% of Herald readers support Independence – more support the SNP.”

    And they still buy the venomously anti-independence, anti-SNP Herald?


  296. Rock says:

    Craig Murray has resigned from the SNP and is standing as an independent (against the SNP).

    Typical (ex Lib Dem) political opportunist, a close personal friend of Carmichael for many years.

    He is suggesting that the SNP don’t want independence.

    He has been attacking the SNP ever since he was rejected as a candidate.

    Would he have been saying the same if he had been nominated and elected as an SNP MP?

    I support his anti establishment stand, but politically he is an opportunist and egoist.

    The views expressed are my personal views.

  297. Ken500 says:

    They buy the Herald/National because they want to.

    People who support SNP/Independence read/buy MSM.

  298. Ken500 says:

    Let it go. let it go.

  299. Ken500 says:

    Craig Murray has a good blog. Good information. Good speaker.

    The SNP has an abundance of talent. People have to wait in line. People who support Independence should not attack the SNP, or each other, it is counter productive. Unity is strength.

  300. Robert Peffers says:

    @mealer says:2 March, 2016 at 8:11 pm:

    If we have less support among the older generation we’ll have to work harder to convince them.Not girn about them.”

    I’ve never been anything else that an SNP voter and activist all my life and you hit that nail dead center, mealer.

    The mere fact that an older person comes out with something like, “I hate that alecsammin”, or, “I hate that Nicola Sturgeon”, but cannot give a rational reason why they hate them, or even give a daft reason, is enough of a start to a conversion.

    The mere fact they cannot rationalise their argument signifies they really have not thought the matter through logically and it is our job to first, “keep the heid”, and secondly to calmly start their train of thoughts towards rationalising their thoughts.

    If, though, they do have a reason then we should be ready and able to show their reason is unreasonable and it can sometimes be just a simple thing that starts a wee niggling doubt in such people’s minds.

    During the referendum I got the surprise of my life when an old Tory Dearie I’d been working on for some time suddenly said she was going to vote YES.

    I asked her what had changed her mind and she said, “You did when you described how the BBC and the daily papers were telling us propaganda”. It turned out the last straw for her had been Nick Robinson’s accusations that Alex Salmond hadn’t answered Robinson’s question when she knew that Salmond had answered at some length.

    I said I could hardly be responsible for that as I hadn’t mentioned it to her. No, she said, but you pointed out that the BBC routinely told lies and omitted important details.

    She explained that she, without really thinking about it, had begun to pay more attention to BBC news reports and had found what I claimed was correct.

    I think a lot of such people do, but without conscious thought, treat their support for a party upon what they believe is their station in life.

    So some of you may be right that it is a sort of, “Support my team win or lose”, sort of thing. Which, if you think about it, is the age old mantra of the, thick as planks, working class, “Labour is the Working man’s party”, or, the equally thick as planks, Tory’s fur coat an nae drawers, “The Tories are the party of the, “Middle to Upper Classes”, brigade.

  301. Ken500 says:

    Fund raiser.

    The total has not not been updated, it has remained static. There Is more money than that now, since yesterday. Giving it away. Slipping a few quid down the sofa, for emergencies? Taxman cometh.

    The majority support Natalie McGarry calling them out. She’s no feart. Never mind the WFI crap.

    Tommy was a working class hero before they were born. Rock on Tommy. Come back kid.

  302. Grouse Beater says:

    Rock: “You were caught lying”

    That’s the kind of extreme comment that has you dismissed as a troll. Or a pretendy supporter here to cause dissent and mischief. Ian Brotherhood has you taped. If only it was Duct taped.

  303. Grouse Beater says:

    Well now, here’s a thing: those eligible to vote in the EU Referendum:

    1. British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK.
    2. UK nationals living abroad on the electoral register in the UK over 15 years.
    3. Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar.

    EU citizens living in the UK are barred from voting, same as in a general election.

    We allowed short-term visitors and students to vote in our Referendum, and barred expats.

  304. Ken500 says:

    EU citizens resident in Spain are not allowed to vote in Referendum, National or regional elections. Only in local and EU elections.

    IndyRef1 could have had a residential qualification. 3 years?

    Would it have made any Diffence?

  305. Ken500 says:

    In Catalonia the majority do not support Independence. The majority do, not, not, not support Independence. The numbers do not stack up. There is more support for Independence in Scotland.

    The Quebec Referendum was never, never, never like the Scottish Referendum. The situation, cause, rules, economy, history were quite different. They can’t be compared without qualification. The Differences have to be considerated before any comparison can be made,

    The EU Union and UK Union are totally, totally different. The only thing similar is the word Union. The Rules, Laws, Control association are totally, totally different.

    EU Law/rules have 1% control over Scottish economy. Good. The UK control is 95% Bad. Westminster/Unionist totally cheated, lied and broke Purdah election rules. They scored an empty lying, hollow victory and will pay for it.

  306. Ken500 says:

    EU citizens resident in Catalonia/Spain are not allowed to vote in Referendum, National or regional elections. They are allowed to vote in local and EU elections.

  307. Grouse Beater says:

    Ken: “The EU Union and UK Union are totally, totally different.”

    I want a system that offers the best opportunity for Scotland to regain self-determination. I don’t want a system that is self-defeating, or a dog’s breakfast. After that, we can study the voting idiosyncrasies of other nation states and discuss the outcome.

  308. ScottieDog says:

    Here’s a really good podcast interview with John Perkins author of ‘Confessions of an economic hitman’. Well worth a listen…

    Action is the antidote to despair.

  309. Grouse Beater says:

    Here’s an interesting piece written by the playwright, David Hare:

    The past is comparatively safe, next to the present, because we know how at least one of them turns out. Or do we? One of my purposes last year in publishing a memoir, The Blue Touch Paper, was to reclaim the 1970s from the image that politicians of one fierce bent have successfully imposed with the help of largely compliant historians.

    The now-familiar version of our island story is that we all spent the 1970s in industrial chaos, with successive governments failing to confront the overbearing unions, until Margaret Thatcher arrived and set about deregulating markets, privatising public assets and generally encouraging citizens to work only for ourselves and our own self-interest.

    This, we have been continually told over three decades of sustained propaganda, was wholly to the good. The country we now live in with all its crazy excesses of inequality and flagrant immorality in the workplace – bosses in large firms averaging 160 times the salaries of their worst-off employees – is said to be far superior to how it was in the days when labour still held management in some kind of check.

  310. Ken500 says:

    The pig faced sucker is cutting off his nose to spite his face or it is a one big Con Take a choice. EURef1.

    The Tories inebriates have banned the ones who are most likely to vote YES, from voting. EU residents and 16/17 year old.

    UK nationals (who fund the Tory Party?) who have been out of the country 15 years but are still on the electoral role. Non Dom tax evaders – How does that work?

    Non Dom non resident tax evaders have more rights, than EU citizens who reside in the UK, contibute, and work and pay their taxes. Typical Tories policy. Unfair but favours the tax evading wealthy who fund the Tory Party.

  311. Ken500 says:

    Fund raiser has been updated. YES. smug.

  312. Ken500 says:

    Stagecoach to pay a heap of tax. Tried to avoid £11Million. Charitable benefactors abroad The vulnerable are illegally sanctioned, and starved in UK

    HMRC is not fit for purpose. A disgrace.

  313. Fred says:

    McWhirter’s article was an example of being paid by the word but lacked credible content & might usefully have been cut by two thirds. O for an Ian Bell!

    His peculiar claim that Kezia Dugdale’s the best Slab leader since Donald Dewar is bizarre in the extreme, the party have one MP for god’s sake. It’s a beauty contest in reverse, Kezia has less hinterland than Ian Gray & he has less than Berwick. It might be mure truthfully said that she’s the “least worst” Slab leader since Dewar, & Gray probably the worst, the jury will give their verdict in a few weeks time. “Mirror mirror on the wall!”

    Ian Bell, sigh!

  314. Andrew Mclean says:

    Breeks 9:58 & 11:26,
    “If it’s all about education” education yes, but it’s not all about education is it? surely it’s an independence movement, and all movement needs momentum.

    Regardless of class or creed, no one is out of bounds in gaining momentum, no one is, or should be excluded from our movement , think of it this way, the SNP are a left of centre political party, but for independence we don’t have to fight an independence campaign solely on left of centre politics.

    Most unionists are not stupid, nether are most independence supporters, despite glaring examples in both camps to the contrary. So we are back at momentum, we have it, but it can’t be bogged down in party politics, we need to transcend politic dialectic, and continue as a social, inclusive, civic, national movement.

    The electorate is a finite resource, that we need to tap, one size will not fit all, but we cannot exclude anyone, as uncomfortable as that may be to some, it’s a National movement not a socio economic movement.

    The SNP can go far to be all encompassing, but only by so far, because they are a political party, fighting a political cause.
    Put it this way, they are an independence party, but what if they weren’t, take the two apart, you see they are not mutually inclusive.

    So we are in the position of having some supporters who may not be our idea of a supporter, but that doesn’t mean they are suspect, unless their words or deeds prove their true position.

    Rock, I get where you are coming from, and I do share your scepticism regarding the National, but remember when this was set up, two guys sharing corner of an office, expectations in the Herald was it was resourced to fail, or at least if it did fail it wouldn’t do too much damage . Unfortunately the jury is still out on whether this is actually an independence supporting paper, or one day we will notice the emperor is naked!

    Grouse Beater, I enjoy your writing, but you too are not infallible, Hail Caesar, I lasted an hour, then gave up. Where are you going with the scope of entitlement in the next referendum, this is a tricky one.

    Anyhow onward and upwards, baby steps, I know but be ready for a sprint!

    Soar Alba

  315. cirsium says:

    O/T another alternative news site suffers from a cyber attack – Robert Parry’s Consortium News see

    The goals of this type of attack is to deny readers access to the writing and cost the site money to repair the damage.

    “I have a bad feeling about this” so Rev – please can you use part of the latest crowd fund to add to your Site Defence Fund.

  316. Cactus says:

    The 2016 fundraiser is coming along nicely, smashin’.

    Merry International Women’s Day. A message for the independence seeking ladies of Scotland.. if anyone ever asks of your political persuasion, you could always tell them you are an ‘inter-nationalist’, sounds groovy chick X

    Inter-Scotland and beyond!

  317. Bob Mack says:

    Re cyber attacks. It is clear 77 brigade have started their remit. It is not unexpected really.

  318. Andrew Mclean says:


    I am sure 77 brigade have bigger fish to fry.

  319. Grouse Beater says:

    On hating politicians:

  320. Grouse Beater says:

    Well, yesterday was a truly crap day, and today is worse. I’m truly sick at heart. And I have no idea how to make things better. Nothing gets solved, nothing gets better. This bloody hopelessness seems endless. What a mess.

  321. Andrew Mclean says:

    Grouse Beater,

    Been their mate, but dont worry it could be worse, at least you are on the side of the angels!
    you like words, so…
    “The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value. I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress and grow”

  322. Grouse Beater says:

    It’s just so crushing, Andrew, a weight you can’t throw off. My domestic circumstances just get worse. I weep, and I’m a grown man. I can understand why people bugger off to Spain to pad around in sandals and sell cheap baubles to tourists. If you reduce your needs to the minimum, and don’t need to rely on heating and heating bills half the year, you can survive tolerably well.

    I read Craig Murray is resigning from the SNP because he feels they have stopped arguing for self-governance. I warned ages back, that the great mass who joined the SNP would soon get disillusioned if they stopped being a radical party. You can argue for better even when someone else controls the purse strings. Murray can’t be the first to try another route.

  323. TJenny says:

    Grouse Beater – hate hearing you feel so despondent, but without knowing what your problem is, we cannot help.

    You know that Wingers are incredibly giving, frequently to those we don’t know, so we are not going to stand on the sidelines and watch one of our own suffer. Please let us know how we can help.

  324. Grouse Beater says:

    “Been their mate, but dont worry it could be worse, at least you are on the side of the angels!”

    I remember a good film in my yoof, a German one by Wim Wenders, where every person had an angel that followed them. ‘Wings of Desire’, it was. Hollywood, always ready to degrade talent or steal a good idea, made a pastiche with Nicolas Cage. A remake rarely has the impact as the original. I wonder if Nicola has an angel following her?

  325. Ken500 says:

    @ Grouse Beater

    If it’s money, sling in a bank a/c details. Everyone will help out. Most folk have been there.

    If not do not get despondent. Get help. Go to the Dr or citizens advice or meditation or mediation.
    A problem shared is a worry halved. Everyone has been there. It is only by sharing things will change.

    Accept the things you cannot change and change the things you can. Live for the moment. Many folk spend their life worrying about things that never happen. Take care and be safe.

    If it’s political issues. There is a May date and a June date. Get out there with a few leaflets if you can and congregate. It can feel better. Even the energy and the exercise. It has been a long cold winter but the sun is coming out.

  326. Andrew Mclean says:

    Grouse Beater
    yup that,s it, just when you think things cant possibly get worse, life takes a run and batters your stones! anyhow weeping is ok, its bottling it in that is so dangerous.

    A friend once told me “one day you will look back at this time and laugh” well that’s bollocks, but one day look back, I think its called a life lesson. well I should have a doctorate by now.

    But I know too well the crushing feel of that weight, as well as I know we will be acquainted again, no one get out of this life alive, but as I said you are on the side of truth, just think you could be a OO supporting Yooonatic! 🙂

    oh and the Craig Murray resigning, that’s pish. Now you know this as well as I, Craig Murray looks after Craig Murray, not that its a bad thing per-say,

    But the SNP not radical, what a lot of crap! really!

  327. Fred says:

    Willie MacRae the link to Mrs Murrell, both murdered by spooks.

  328. Grouse Beater says:

    Ken and TJenny life is pretty poor, eh, when turning to a chat sight for guidance. I apologise.

    In my vocation everybody goes out of fashion sooner or later. I’m waiting on that happening to Rowling. But she keeps spewing out more Harry Snotter stories.

    Not sure what to think of Craig Murray’s resignation. I have noticed the party is not always adept at harnessing the talent it attracts. My first reaction was they should have made him a consultant.

    What do you guys think?

  329. Grouse Beater says:

    “I should have a doctorate by now.”

    That had me chuckling! Thanks. 🙂

  330. Ken500 says:

    @ Grouse Beater

    Put a donate thing on your blog. { ; > )

  331. Andrew Mclean says:

    You were in fashion! now you are boasting, how was that?, I have never been fashionable, I wore winkle pickers with flairs at school, my mum made me wear a kilt to church every Sunday, and I was know as cardigan boy!

    The only reason JK is so successful is due to the ease of adaption to screen play, the more basic the writing the easier, its not magicaloctious!

    As for Craig Murray, is he a friend, because I don’t trust him, certainly wouldn’t consult him on politics, now I am sure he is a nice guy, but well, lets leave it at that.

  332. Grouse Beater says:

    The only reason JK is so successful is due to the ease of adaption to screen play.

    You know, you might be on to something there.

    A book bought a few years back called ‘Tulip Fever’ set in Holland’s tulip bubble, had its brief chapters read like a screenplay. Later I heard it had after all been written as such for Catherine Zeta ‘I’m Doin-it for Swansea’ Jones, and the author Deborah Moggach turned it into the book I had bought. Bit of a cheat, really.

    The film never got made, although somebody tried to get it into production.

    PS: Thanks for the tip, Ken. Worth a thought.

  333. Macart says:

    @ Grouse Beater

    Had a bad patch myself a month or so back. Black dog was biting something fierce and it took a while and a fair bit of patience on the part of some, to kick me out of it. Helps to have folks to talk to, and yes online too.

    As for Mr Murray?

    I think some folks believed the SNP were a one issue conviction party and suddenly discovered they were also a party of government working under legal constraints they couldn’t easily break and at a gradualist pace many found/find unacceptable.

    The SNP aren’t everyone’s cup of tea. They’re not out to overthrow the halls of capitalism, they’re centre of the road gradualists with some socialist leanings. They are who and what they are. Closer to social democrats I think, but fire and brimstone radicals? Not so much. Competent? Pretty much. Working to their own plan? Almost certainly. 😀

    What they are, under current constitutional and legal arrangements, is probably the Scottish electorate’s best hope for eventual, legal and unchallenged independence. It was always a mistake IMO for some folk to join the SNP. Its just not for everyone and the changes some want, won’t come quick enough for them.

  334. Andrew Mclean says:

    I used to read a lot, I loved the way you can read a book and it takes you to new worlds, the actual act of reading the words disappears and your consciousness is taken away, floating into the life’s and experiences of the writer, good writers transcend the physical word and become ethereal.

    Unfortunately reading JK for me is like walking on cobblestones wearing high heels.

    I need some inspiration, Common Sense, The Rights of Man and Other Essential Writings by Thomas Paine, I think will fit the bill nicely.

  335. Grouse Beater says:

    Macart: Had a bad patch myself a month or so back. Black dog was biting

    Sorry to hear that, Macart. I look to posters here with eager anticipation, yourself included. Most are better informed than I am. Ken is a veritable encyclopaedia.

    PS: Patch is a good name for a black dog if you paint one eye white.

  336. Andrew Mclean says:


    was Black Dog not also the name of Winston Churchill’s dark days?

  337. Ken500 says:

    Just vote all the Unionist out. They will not be around in government to cause any trouble. That will help not having to listen to their lies, and constant briefing the Press with nonsense.

    Stick together – support the SNP. Unity is strength. With all the Unionist’s gone from Office, they can’t keep on taking Scotland’s money and misusing it. They can get lost. When the time is right go for another Ref with major support.

    A tax system will have to be set up in any event, even if a majority had voted YES. That is one of the first steps. Everything else will follow. Don’t let the useless Unionist get their hands on Scotland’s money.

    If Osbourne had taken the Oil tax down, instead of putting it up. Scotland would have almost full employment. Increasing Scotland’s revenue.

  338. Achnababan says:

    Andrew Maclean – read Ursula la Guin – a great and imaginative writer and east to read!

  339. Macart says:


    More than likely origin. I understand Churchill suffered from depression right enough.

  340. Andrew Mclean says:


    Just ordered The Dispossessed, I like Asimov so hopefully I will like it!

  341. Macart says:

    @ Grouse Beater

    “PS: Patch is a good name for a black dog if you paint one eye white.” 😀

    More of a Dalmatian these days. Thing is I talked and folk listened (very patiently), then took me by the scruff of the neck and got me moving again. 🙂

  342. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’ve met and blethered with Craig Murray at pro-indy rallies in Glasgow and Dundee and found him a decent orator and a decent person.

    Perchance, he has too much of the ‘maverick’ in him to settle comfortably into SNP membership (and discipline)?

  343. Ian says:

    Hey Grouse Beater dont know if your much of a man for music but if you are get the headphones on turn it them up full .Clears the head,inspires and gets you back in the saddle.Its my go to every time i detect a bit of negativity and drive and dont let the bastards drag you down.

  344. Liz g says:

    Mon Grousy…….
    I will see you’re trouble’s way a Mam took to The Monklands and raise ye wan deed dug wi a four figure vet bill all on Mothers Day.
    Then we can remind each other none of us were born Ruthie the tank comander or ID’S.
    So we will probably get there any way. X

  345. Andrew McLean

    “Unfortunately the jury is still out on whether this is actually an independence supporting paper, or one day we will notice the emperor is naked!”

    Which jury is that? Do you actually read it?
    Every one of the generally three major columnists per day who contribute (some of whom are not SNP supporters) support independence. There are no anti independence columnists at all.
    All editorial comment on any constitutional issue supports independence.
    Today’s “Scottish Six” issue was inventive, imaginative and first class.

  346. Ken500 says:

    One way to relax and cheer yourself up is with some exercise if that is possible. Swimming. It is gentle exercise and calms the body. Not everybody’s choice, especially at this time of year. Any exercise, if folk are able, can clear the mind. Endorphin’s release pleasure in the brain and give a sense of well being. Getting out and delivering some leaflets, especiallly with like minded people, if you are able, gives a sense of accomplishment. Most people are fine. There are more good people in the world than bad.

  347. Ken500 says:

    Craig Murray hss many talents but is revealing just why the SNP members chose another candidate. Patience is a virtue. There is a lot of information posted on his blog. Enlightening. Some quite combatant as well.

  348. Fred says:

    It’s like “Suicide Watch” on here tonight. Mon guys lighten up!

  349. Andrew Mclean says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Funny I was reading the paper then thought I would catch up on wings, yes I do, and today’s edition was one of the best specials I have read in a long time, and no one got married or had a baby to warrant that.

    But time and time again it follows the unionist agenda, quick to jump on to the SNP MP in whatever manufactured smear the opposition has arranged. So here is a idea next time act like a spreadsheet not a tabloid. How many SNP MPs have had silly little news items become front page spreads, and not one hotel curtain set on fire or punch up in the strangers bar?

    Sorry but I don’t trust journalists, especially ones who professes their love of independence. I would prefer integraty, honestly, and intellectual stimulation. But I wil continue to read, after all I am a political nerd.

    As for the jury, that’s my peers, and I don’t get undying love for the national, not yet anyway!

  350. Andrew Mclean says:

    2021 the year of celebration of an arch unionist and betrayer of the Scottish Crown jewels, because we would not be doing anything else that year, And this promoted by an englishman, who also mentions his intolerable cuts to his budget of 3%., yes the national has no hidden agenda, give me a break!

  351. Fred says:

    The appeal to this cobbled-up Supreme Court by Christian groups seeking to overturn the “Named Person” legislation is a bit ironic given the child abuse perpetrated by Christians in the past few years.

  352. Fireproofjim says:

    Hello all you readers of Stu’s wonderful site.
    After a great start the contributions have really slowed down and only a couple of thousand of us have chipped in out of the hundreds of thousands who visit.
    Let’s try to hit the £100,000 plus, like last year.
    It is really easy to contribute. A fiver from your credit card will make all the difference, and you will have done your bit and feel good.

  353. Rock says:


    “Hello all you readers of Stu’s wonderful site.
    After a great start the contributions have really slowed down and only a couple of thousand of us have chipped in out of the hundreds of thousands who visit.
    Let’s try to hit the £100,000 plus, like last year.
    It is really easy to contribute. A fiver from your credit card will make all the difference, and you will have done your bit and feel good.”

    We could easily hit £150,000 plus if the 17,000 buyers of The National gave their daily 60p to W O S instead for the next 22 days.

    17,000 at 60p amounts to £10,200 daily.

    £10,200 daily for the next 16 weekdays amounts to £163,200.

    Imagine £10,200 daily donated to the genuinely ‘independence supporting’ W O S instead of being given to a fake ‘independence supporting’ unionist paper.

  354. Fred says:

    Rock, you’ve just become a sad auld sweetie-wife, how I spend my 60p is none of your fuckin business.

  355. Onwards says:

    I believe you have been asked this several times, but I have never seen a reply.
    Would you rather the National didn’t exist, and we were back to 100% unionist propaganda on newsstands ?

    I don’t believe the National props up the Herald. They are both commercial operations owned by the same American company. But just for a second say that it was.. Do you really think the Herald will cease to exist if the National went bust ?

    That isn’t going to happen. Same with the Scotsman unfortunately. They are signature newspapers with a long heritage and value in their branding. The Herald is the longest running national newspaper in the world from 1783. That sense of history is worth something. The print version will be bought over and given away free before it is abandoned.

    So if the choice is between The National AND The Herald together in the supermarkets, or simply the Herald, then I would prefer to see them both there, and hopefully merging in the future.

    If we don’t support the National it will fold and we will have no pro-Scottish voice in the shops. Unless some multi-millionaire steps in and subsidises it. No-one NEEDS to buy newspapers anymore as lightweight tablets and big screen phones become commonplace.

    So the future of many print newspapers will be as goodwill purchases catering to their market, or as political propaganda only. Many will be run at a loss by the rich simply to promote their viewpoint.

  356. Rock says:


    I believe you have been asked this several times, but I have never seen a reply.
    Would you rather the National didn’t exist, and we were back to 100% unionist propaganda on newsstands ?”

    It would make near zero difference to support for independence if The National didn’t exist.

    It never has the type of hard hitting articles which W O S has every day.

    Like the official Yes campaign, The National has ignored the Rev. Stuart Campbell, Scotland’s number one independence campaigner.

    The National is bought almost entirely by 17,000 independence supporters.

    If 55% of the 17,000 who buy The National were former No voters, I wouldn’t be so much against it.

    We got 45% support despite 99% unionist propaganda and we could get more than 50% next time if we did not waste our resources on lost causes.

    £10,200 daily given to the publishers of The Herald could do wonders if spent on reaching the type of folks who are excluded from mainstream society but could be won over to our cause.

    The National does not genuinely support independence. Its publishers are milking the market and trying to milk it more by threatening closure.

    Fortunately only 17,000 independence supporters are gullible enough to fall for it.

    I had called for a genuinely independence supporting newspaper at the start of the three year referendum campaign, so I am not against the idea.

    But The National is a fake, as much as Scottish Labour.

  357. Onwards says:


    The National circulation is currently 12,100 @ 60p so that brings in £7260 per day. When you consider the expense of running a daily newspaper that doesn’t leave much profit at all. When it first launched they hoped for a stable circulation of 15,000 to be viable. A few thousand online subscriptions probably bring up the numbers.

    By comparison the Herald circulation is 32100 @ £1.30 = £41,730
    So the Herald isn’t under threat. And it has well established business, property, jobs, motoring sections which bring in good advertising revenue.

    No-one is disputing The National is run as a commercial operation – the same as the Herald and hundreds of other papers – ultimately by an American company that hopes to make a profit.

    Does that really matter ? It is still better than nothing.

    We are simply not going to get a ‘pure’ independence supporting daily paper starting up in this day and age. The only reason the National exists is because it can share the Herald printing presses and existing distribution network.

    And for the price, it’s not an either/or situation if you consider it as a donation. Many people who support it ALSO donate to the SNP and to online sites. We wouldn’t buy it if we didn’t think that having a daily paper on side wasn’t a good way to promote the cause of independence.

    If we don’t use it we lose it, and its back to the bad old days of 100% unionist owned newspapers spreading their demoralising anti-Scottish crap in the shops. That’s the real value of politically biased newspapers – the billboard effect in hundreds of supermarkets.. helped by supporters moving it to a prominent position. Of course you also get articles shared on social media and some publicity in ‘what the papers say’ sections.

    Look at the edition today:

    “Sturgeon’s Promise” – pledging no income tax rise and more free school meals.
    Thousands of passers-by will glance at that tomorrow, and it helps to keep a positive pro-SNP, pro-Scotland agenda in the background, even if on a subliminal basis. At the very least it gives some balance from the rest of the negativity.

    Wings is great, but newspaper covers in the shops reach a completely different general ‘non-political’ audience and surely helps to hold up SNP support.
    I think it would be a real shame to lose it.

  358. Grouse Beater says:

    My Friend the Ukip Voter’

  359. Cadogan Enright says:

    Good post Onward

    That leadramán Rock knows all this and is just Trolling

  360. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Cadogan Enright –

    If Rock formed a band with his pals (?) they could be called ‘The Trolling Stones’.

  361. Ken500 says:

    Newspaper groups are printing companies. That is where they make their profits. Printing leaflets and literature, Newsquest makes it’s money printing literature for private education, worldwide.

    Non Doms own UK Press. The Telegraph, Express, Mail. They have a right wing agenda to support their tax evasion. Murdoch was illegally give Press access and ownership by Thatcher which tipped the balance to right wing. She denied it at the time but the release of the papers (after thirty years) recently showed she was lying. Thatcher broke the Ministerial Code ( frequently)

    Scotsman JP etc have massive debts but keeps afloat by printing literature. JP based in the NE of England print Labour literature. They get contracts to print Gov literature when Labour are in power.

    75% of Herald readers support Independence/SNP. The National readers support Indepence/SNP.
    The Scottish SNP Gov could be using Newsquest presses to print Gov literature etc. This could have influence Newsquest decision to set up the National. Newsquest have printing contracts with the U.K. gov.

    SNP/Independence supporters buy MSM (but don’t believe a word of it?) some buy the Mail, Express, Record every day. Need lining for the budgie or set their fire?

    The Non Doms pay no tax. Barclay bros – Telegraph Lord Rothermere – Mail? Express. Times -Murdoch. Promote a right wing agenda. JP promote Labour – right wing. Not a free and balanced Press. MSM No democracy. MSM/BBC press controlled by Westminster. The Guardian is the only only paper of any independence of editorial. (Constitution) but controlled by Westminster. Clegg and Cameron threatened the Editor, for telling the truth.

    The Royals are right wing Tories. They cause mental health problems in children. Cold, hungry worried people get sick. Tories are cutting child benefit. Westminster ministers covers up child abuse and murder. Where is the Chilcot Report?

  362. Sinky says:

    Sunday Herald reveals that Osborne tried to shaft the Scottish Government for £200m a year at the last minute after fiscal framework had been verbally agreed.

    However Sturgeon and Swinney called his bluff and threatened not to sign off the agreement.

    Rock, please note that no Unionist newspaper reports this.

  363. Cadogan Enright says:

    And just in case he replies, féic off Rock

    The National is going from strength to strength

  364. Tony Little says:

    Oooo, you’ve gone Black & White! Let’s see what tomorrow brings 😉

  365. chasanderson200 says:

    Tried to pay in £50 a couple of weeks ago but noticed that zero was deducted from my card.w wax

    I have now set up a standing order to pay £15 pm to help with general site expenses.

    If there is another one off appeal I propose to pay directly through the bank and will include an appropriate transaction narrative, subject to that meeting your accounting requirements.

  366. kendomacaroonbar says:


    iScot Magazine will be printing the WEE BLACK BOOK in their May issue (out 01/05) This can be ordered via www(dot)iscot(dot)scot

  367. galamcennalath says:

    A lot of stuff flying about concerning Named Persons. The Rev retweeted this one …

    “pmcrek – ?@PiratesForIndy
    Anybody who’s opinion I’d respect have reservations about NP? Or is it just same old journalists & politicians I couldnt give a fuck about?”

    … that does sum it up nicely, I think. The only people who seem negative are the LoonyYoonyRight.

    I have certainly never heard anyone I would listen to voice any criticisms or reservations.

    There seems to be a Yoon clique who have moved beyond SNPBad into the realms of US style ultra right which really has little following anywhere east of Cap Cod. Funny how, as ‘moderate Unionism’ sinks into the sand, the hardcore which is left is perhaps now showing it real colours.

  368. Cadogan Enright says:

    Indy Live covered our Wings get together in Glasgow

    They need less than £3000 to keep the show on the road with 3 days left.

    Their appeal ran at the same time as the Revs and maybe got lost in the rush to send dosh to Wings

  369. CageyBee says:

    Finally got round to paying up now my pension has come in.
    I see that indy live are just 260 short of their target with 12 hours to go too

  370. Finnz says:

    pleased to contribute Wings..

    Go get em…

  371. Stoker says:

    Almost 82K funded from a miniscule fraction of WOS followers.
    How blinking amazing is that, could you just imagine what sort of financial target could be reached if every single WOS follower was able to donate something?

    Never mind folks, if you’re one of the unfortunates who couldn’t manage to donate there are 2 more powerful things you have readily at your disposal and they are:

    (1)-Give your votes to the SNP at every opportunity until we gain our independence.

    (2)-Promote WOS at every opportunity whether that be via word of mouth or carrying out your own promotional ideas etc.

    The most important task you can take on is to get the truth put out there and it doesn’t always need money to achieve that goal.

    Be inventive and if you come across someone who thinks the internet is some form of new industrial fishing, take it upon yourself to teach them what you know, teach them the basics and introduce them to WOS as you do so.

    This movement is a multi-headed attack force and every single one of us have our parts to play.

    We will achieve our independence.

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