The razor’s edge
We’re still waiting for the full data tables for the ICM/Scotland on Sunday poll that got everyone a little excited at the weekend, and whose findings closely mirrored the Panelbase/Wings Over Scotland one two weeks ago that the same publisher crudely smeared and cast aspersions (which it later retracted) on the credibility of.
In the meantime, even though we’re still technically on holiday, we had a bit of a rummage through the company’s preceding one for the Scotsman papers this morning and picked out some random interesting snippets. We’ll be watching keenly to see if the latest poll has corresponding stats to compare.
– the Labour Yes vote was at a record high: 30%, or 34% excluding Don’t Knows).
– 79% of people who said they were voting Yes or No said they’d definitely made up their mind. Nearly a fifth thought they might change it. (Most likely to change were women, part-time workers and the unemployed.)
– people’s opinion on whether independence would be good or bad for the economy was almost a dead heat, with 38% saying good and 43% saying bad, which we think is the closest ever. (Hardly anyone was on the fence, with just 6% saying it would make no difference.)
– there’s been a dramatic shift in how people think independence will affect inequality. More than twice as many people (36%) thought independence will REDUCE inequality as think it will INCREASE it (16%).
– only 25% of Scots believed the No campaign’s scare stories about pensions, with more than twice as many (51%) expecting pensions to either increase or stay the same in an independent Scotland.
– more than two thirds of Scots (68%) want Holyrood to be given control of most taxation and welfare in the event of a No vote, but only 39% expect it to happen.
(Fewer than half of Labour, Lib Dem or SNP voters expected Holyrood to get new powers in the event of a No vote. Only Conservative voters believe it.)
– a fifth of people who said last month they’d vote No would definitely change their mind (10%) or consider changing their mind (10%) if they were convinced that no major new powers would come to Holyrood after a No vote.
Even if only those saying they would definitely switch actually did so, it would be enough to put Yes in front.
– those numbers were even higher among the crucial Labour demographic, with 14% saying they’d definitely switch if there were no new powers, and 12% who would think about it.
As Labour’s “Devo Nano” proposals continue to crumble under scrutiny (which is, some cynics might suggest, precisely why the Scottish media is so reluctant to scrutinise them), the Achilles heel of the No campaign seems to be clearly exposed, waiting for Yes Scotland to throw a spear into it.
If the people of Scotland can be shown that the Unionist parties’ promises of greater devolution are the hollow sham they are, the referendum is there for the winning.
.
EDIT 14.00: Embarrassingly, our first draft of this article didn’t notice the date on the tables and thought they WERE from the latest poll. Our excuse is that we’re on holiday and therefore not operating to our normal unforgiving standards of editorial diligence. Also, shut up.
Entirely agree. Vote no get nothing cannot be said often enough. I could see BT freaking out at the last minute and cobbling together some over complicated son of Devo Nano proposal that looks like more powers until you scrutinise it. The problem being that the media will hype the new, new powers as being real progress.
Ye just cannae help yersel even on holiday.
Once a Yesser always a Yesser.
Good lad.
“Only” 39% expect most tax and welfare powers to come to Scotland? Only? 39% is a huge number to believe a complete lie.
The fact that no significant new powers will be coming to Scotland after a no vote is probably the most important message we can get out there, especially as 20% of no voters would consider changing their mind if they thought that was the case. No wonder the no campaign are making such an effort to deceive us into thinking more powers will be guaranteed.
Keep pushing the devo-nano lies folks, this is what will win it for us. People want protected from the excesses of Westminster, they have to realise that a no vote will leave them completely vulnerable.
The link you provided to the full tables shows the poll taken in March not the recent poll. Can you correct this please? Thank you Rev.
Rev, entirely agree – beat Labour Devo proposals, and the day is ours.
Any suggestions for a snappy summary that can be posted on sites everywhere?
Interesting insights as usual Rev Stu.
“Most likely to change were women, …” – motivating piece of info for the Yes campaign.
“More than twice as many people (36%) now think independence will REDUCE inequality as think it will INCREASE it (16%)” – which would help explain the momentum of traditional Labour voters moving to Yes.
All your work and the readers’ letters proving the shambles of Labour devo nano are looking like time well spent. That material can go towards the undecided info page.
I repeat: barring a “cataclysmic” event out of Westminster’s control but most certainly aggravated by it by association, I predict Yes to win by 63%.
And the bookie’s odds are going that way.
ahaha whit are you like Rev.where would we be without your synthesis, thank you! now get back to your holidays ????
– a fifth of people who currently say they’ll vote No would definitely change their mind (10%) or consider changing their mind (10%) if they were convinced that no major new powers would come to Holyrood after a No vote. –
The Achilles heel of Better Together
…the Achilles heel of the No campaign seems to be clearly exposed, waiting for Yes Scotland to throw a spear into it.
Ooooph …classic mistake there, Rev! Achilles was mortally wounded in his heal by an arrow; not by a spear!
But hey! Great analysis of the stats, Rev. Good to know that there are still ‘No’ voters out there who will jump to ‘Yes’ if given the true facts. The Month of May could be very interesting (will we hit parity?)
And it would help if I spelled ‘Heel’ correctly (duh!)
The more polls like this, the better. The idea of independence is now becoming normalised. Out of 24 polls this year, only 6 show a >50% support for the Union.
Shows that >50% of people are at least considering independence. Although the way it is reported, you’d think it’s just a fringe movement amongst extremists.
You think Better Together & the Westminster Government would be paying more attention. Hopefully they don’t wake up ’til it’s too late.
@Grouse Beater
I predict Yes to win by 63%.
Which is pretty much the vote share that the second question (to have tax-varying powers) in the Devolution referendum back in 1997 achieved (63.5% to be precise).
“The link you provided to the full tables shows the poll taken in March not the recent poll.”
Well, that’s a right old clanger. The newest tables don’t seem to be out. Text amended accordingly.
Gillie says:
“if they were convinced that no major new powers would come to Holyrood after a No vote. – The Achilles heel of Better Together”
Could also be seen as our too though. IF the No camp can convince enough people that they will give them jam tomorrow couldn’t this swing the other way?
@ Major Bloodnok
Pretty much the vote share … 63.5% to be precise.
Ha!
Yours
Eccles.
Just had a look at the breakdown of voting intentions for the Euro elections by ICM and am disappointed that UKIP are up 4% at 10%. I will be horrified if that lot get double digits on the day.
Only Conservative voters believe it[more powers].
This is a classic example of lying to pollsters. There is little doubt that lots of Tory voters are saying this simply because they don’t want independence, not because they actually believe it.
It’s like the economics question. ~1/3 will always say indy will be bad for the economy (SSAS is more reliable here and that’s what they get consistently – ICM is biased to No due to too many people from England). It’s because they don’t want indy / feel quite British, not because they actually believe indy would harm the Scots economy.
In polls you will always get this, notably if the issue is polarising. Those firmly in one camp will always answer positively towards that camp even if they knowingly lie in doing so. They may even kid themselves they are telling the truth but deep down they know they aren’t.
Who are these people that believe what the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems promise?
I would like to meet them and promise to give them £20
after a month for every £10 that they give me right now.
@Geoff Huijer
I think they are the same people making the business decisions for the CBI.
Wee Ginger Dug sticks the boot into them nicely here:
http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/04/20/cbbye-bye/
Ah now the reasoning behind your campaign on Labour’s devo-naw-no proposals becomes clearer and clearer. Not only will some people consider changing the way they vote – they are also strongly in the target demographics of Labour voters, undecided women and the less well off. That’s first class strategic thinking.
O/T but can someone tell me how I can get one YES badge and wristband and also 3 YES posters (approx 18″ x 18″) to put up in my 3 front bay windows?
I tried a quick search but only came up with the online YESScotland shop selling full packs for about £20. I’d prefer to just physically visit an actual shop to get what I specifically want, if there is such a thing here in Glasgow.
Can anyone give me an address or a relevant link?
The YES shop is at 136 Hope Street in Glasgow (about halfway down, on the left).
I see both Glasgow and Edinburgh Universities have left the CBI.
magicpants
Go to the Yes office / HQ in Hope Street. They sell by the unit.
O/T
As a proud alumnus I am delighted to note that the University of Glasgow has resigned from the CBI today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27101266
This whole CBI debacle has nailed stone dead the trope that businesses are against Scottish independence on principle (never mind the economic or business arguments). It’s a gift that just keeps on giving.
@MajorBloodnok + buggerthepanda
Thanks, I’ll be wending my way to Hope St soon.
Me too glad about Glasgow Uni
Now for Grigors!
Aberdeen University resigns from CBI.
With reference to the answers about the economy after independence – I think its a chicken and egg situation if people have very strong views either way on independence then they’re more likely to answer the other questions to fit in with their view of what’s better or worse under independence.
However those with less strong views, or those who’ve maybe only recently converted to being a decided voter, may give more interesting results to those questions.
However I guess its impossible for a pollster to dissect those two types of respondents?
Tweets saying Aberdeen Uni now resigned from CBI. 🙂
Oops – I see Minty already beat me to it.
‘Ah now the reasoning behind your campaign on Labour’s devo-naw-no proposals becomes clearer and clearer.”
Jings, it wasn’t clear before?
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-countdown-starts-tomorrow/
RGU’s stance of we’ll continue to be registered with CBI and thereby funding the NO campaign, whilst maintaining that we are neutral on indy, has to indicate that they are natural unionists as only unionists have that kind of twisted logic. Is there maybe a connection between RGU high heid yins and the bonkers Slabbers running Aberdeen cooncil?
Any news about Strathclyde Uni and CBI?
Prof. Curtice may know.
Robert Kerr – if Strathclyde Uni don’t withdraw from CBI, then surely Prof. Curtice can no longer be introduced by media as an impartial psephologist.
alistair darling position as solid as moyes
TJenny
You are ahead of the curve.
Bless!
Bookie
Moyes has finally realised his ambition of Everton finishing above United.
Robert Kerr – why do I get the feeling you were patting my head there. 🙂
I’m obviously thick but I can’t get my head round why any uni should be a member of the CBI – could some bright spark please explain?
Good to see the polls move in a YES direction, even better is seeing Torcuil Crichton of the ultra unionist Daily Record newspaper,start to panic, as he desperately, tries to rally, anyone who’ll listen to him, to vote no. Crichtons call to arms is aimed at Labour supporters, fortunately Labour supporters are moving towards the YES camp, and the truth.
In a frantic state,Labour are amassing an assault on Scots this week with Gordon Brown giving one of his pathetic lie filled speeches in Glasgow on Tuesday. Also Ed Miliband will copy the Tory tourists, when he flies up, and lectures Scots, no doubt he’ll point out just how good we are together, using the much used phrases “Broad Shoulders” and “Pooling resources”.
Never forget Ed Miliband publicaly stated that Margaret Thatcher, was his hero.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/gordon-brown-warns-15-billion-3435038
Dorothy Devine – to provide a continuous conveyor belt of capitalist mind-moulded graduates into business positions.
Anyone up in Inverness/Beauly fancy a meeting with Danny Alexander? Brave move from him to invite everyone along:
https://twitter.com/littlegrumpyG/status/456056172387110912/photo/1/large
If only I was closer…
I note Wiki has already been edited.
In 2014 several Scottish organisations withdrew from the CBI in protest against its support for a ‘No’ vote in the Scottish independence referendum. These included STV, Scottish Enterprise and VisitScotland.[8]
TJenny.
I think we met at The Counting House.
My comment was a compliment.
Robert Kerr – aw, thanks then. 🙂
Haw Rev am no happy wie that Graphic you could huv asked fur anither crowdfund fur a packet of Gillete ah mean we hiv tae show BT we hiv more in oor Armarium fur slicing an dicing,am a bit auld fashioned still goat a Cutthroat, ah see your taking the Strop a wee bitty telling us tae ( shut up )take some mair time aff, that wee hiccup wie the polls, your normaly sherp as a Scarpil,ah bit of Woo Sha tae,an BTW ah wee paddle at Weston Super Mare,s nae releif,ah wud hiv went tae Brighton.
Dorothy Devine says:
“why any uni should be a member of the CBI”
Cross fertilisation and the need of the education establishment to understand business’ training and numbers required for the various disciplines. A talking shop for business and education to ‘interface’. Probably some free lunches too.
Robert Kerr – from the CH, ‘Our Man in Havana’, yes?
Ah thought ah wiz in moderation cause ah hud upset you Rev
but just notice ma names spelt wrang,nothing newon that
front then lol.
X_Sticks,keepus posted on Danny Alexanders sojour.
This could be why RGU in Aberdeen are not resigning :
http://www.rgu.ac.uk/alumni-and-giving/supporting-rgu/our-board-members
Stinks.
Major, I serouly hope YES win by 63%…
…that would make the final score:
YES 81.5%
NO 18.5%
🙂
Jim T. It all stinks and has done for long enough. As Mike Small (Bella fame) elequently portrayed in his speech… this is about deconstructing the establishment… out with the old and re-building anew.
There are establishment in every walk of Scottish life who now feel threatened. It should come of no suprise that they will kick, scream and bite all the way to their demise.
The fact that this is being exposed is completely down to democracy having been afforded a chance to breathe and flourish through the referendum process. Before 2011, there was no real democracy in Scotland… just as there is no true democracy anywhere else on these islands now.
One chance to grab it.
ronnie anderson says:
“X_Sticks,keepus posted on Danny Alexanders sojour.”
Unfortunately I won’t manage to make it, too far from Aberdeen. Just flagging it up in the hope that some of the WoSsers might manage to go and report back on proceedings.
I guess Gordon Brown is hoping pensioners are not old enough to remember his raid on pensions.
Possibly another blow to the so called British Empire, as ex-residents of the Chagos Island make a bid for sovereignty. The British Empire are desperate to hold on the Islands, and have sent their highest law officer, Attorney General, Dominic Grieve QC.
Me I’m rooting for the ex-residents of Chagos.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/21/chagos-islands-diego-garcia-base-court-ruling
@Alba4Eva
The way things are going, anything’s possible!
OT – Hi, hope the rev doesnt mind a blatent plug!
I’ve made a crappy wee game for android (free and ad free):
Project Fear Bingo, Google play http://t.co/O9M42wbsXa
Have fun!
Great to see the polls continuing to shift our way. And with the British media flattering UKIP, I’d wager a few bob on a lurch to the right in England at the Euro elections – with a corresponding lift for Yes in our polls next month.
@Andy-B:
the Chagos Islands pretty much ARE the British Empire now. That and a handful of other tiny remote islands. And the fact that the Chagos Islands now exist only as a giant airbase for the USA shows how much Westminster isWashington’s bitch.
‘Jesus would’ve voted No.’ – D. Cameron.
Ian Brotherhood – ‘Jesus would have voted no TO David Cameron.’ There fixed. 🙂
“‘Jesus would have voted no TO David Cameron.’”
satan would say no to camerons policies.
@ Andy-B
The poor chagos islanders suffered at the hands of the british government,there was a programme made by John Pilger which I think is available on youtube detailing what the brits and Us did to these islanders.
Well well well , a letter written by James 6th/1st, discovered after 400 years or so, is said to look favourably on a union with England. King James, said that anyone opposing the union would have been a contentious spirit, that’s you and me folks.
The letter dated 1604 and written in the Palace of Whitehall, goes on to say that King James hoped no one disagreed with the union. This from a king who liked to burn women as witches, even if they we innocent, and a king who forced young Scots to speak English.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/10775380/Letter-written-by-first-king-of-Great-Britain-mirrors-current-campaign-for-the-Union.html
Andy-B
He was not the first King of the UK, big difference between the UK and GB.
Ask the Irish?
@ Nana Smith.
Yip Nana, I’ve watched that particular video, John Pilger, was very good at exposing the UK and USA, and their dastardly deeds around the globe.
@Tamson.
Thats right they kicked the people out and rented the islands as a huge US base.
If you REALLY want to know just how evil Westminster has been over the centuries, then here’s the answer, it really is an eye-opener.
http://worldsworstmassmurderer.blogspot.com.au/
Bugger (the Panda) says:
21 April, 2014 at 6:12 pm
Andy-B
He was not the first King of the UK, big difference between the UK and GB.
Ask the Irish?
Surely the Telegraph newspaper wouldn’t lie about such a thing would they?. Says I with tongue in cheek.
Its three Universities that have left CBI
Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen
Regards James VI, its not really a surprise, he wanted the two Kingdoms united under one, but this was most likely down to his own vanity.
Both parliaments in Edinburgh and London, were totally against the idea.
The letter that has somehow ‘just emerged’ would have been one of many from King James in his vain attempt to create a United Kingdom of Greate Brittaine (his spelling)
Interesting article by Stephen Noon of Yes Scotland
http://stephennoon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/no-basis-in-reality.html
So Yes will win if we can get the truth out to them.
And If no was to win, it would be because our nation had been deceived by Scottish Politicians, supported by lying Journalists.
Here’s something for Torrence et al to think about.
If Yes win, you will have a future in Scotland in which it will be regularly pointed out that you tried to deceive us.
If no win you will be blamed along with the Labour Party, for any future cuts/policies or any other matter, that was known, but not reported by yourselves.
Wouldn’t want to be in your shoes no matter what happens.!
Comment left Project fear bingo. Lol.
We are watching you BBC how dare you take us for fools that was a f*ckin piece of unadulterated bias on Disreporting Scotland tonight. As the big bird read out the story of the institutions quitting the CBI the screenshots were of CBI warnings and such. If this wasn’t so serious you would laugh.
Watched STV news and when they were reading out the story the background shots were of the uni’s and the institutions actually quitting the CBI as it should have been on BBC but they aren’t even hiding it now. F*ckin diabolical
O/T but can someone tell me how I can get one YES badge and wristband and also 3 YES posters (approx 18? x 18?) to put up in my 3 front bay windows?
I tried a quick search but only came up with the online YESScotland shop selling full packs for about £20. I’d prefer to just physically visit an actual shop to get what I specifically want, if there is such a thing here in Glasgow.
Can anyone give me an address or a relevant link?
Not simple “Yes” posters but “YouYesYet?” ones in various suitable colours. High quality jpegs and a single pdf to print off yourself singly or get printed in bulk. And completely free. Greg Hemphill himself approves them. See
http://reportingthereferendum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/youyesyet.html.
Can we adopt, or incorporate the Chagos Islands, as part of the “Settlement?”
That WOULD given me great warm feeling.
need bamboo
by the way
…right, that does it… i’m gonna get down wiv da kidz and connect wiv mah youth man… am gonna get mixin’ wiv dem samples Novation Launchpad Stylie. 🙂
Alba4Eva
TanKu
Cockers is in damage-limitation mode on the CBI front on the Telegraph website.
He says Nasty J Swinney is Alicsammin’s enforcer in beating up CBI members.
Comedy Gold.
Desperate days for BT.
🙂
The secret to success in September seems simple.
Convince Labour voting Scots that the Tories will win the 2015 Westminster election! According to polls, there’s a 10% swing waiting to be had.
Could Gordon Brown be the shock new manager of Man Utd?
He could save United like he saved the world. He could be the man to end United’s trophy boom and bust.
No one should let him near the finances though. He’s not good with numbers.
” (51%) expecting pensions to either increase or stay the same in an independent Scotland”
No mention that Westminster are deciding on scrapping the retirement age?
Is that a tool to be used later?
I have archived Alan Cochrane’s gum bumpings re CBI here: http://archive.today/9GMQw
Murray McCallum
Yeah,no more boom,all bust.
Moyes for the new staggies manager….gawd knows they need someone.
OT,a certain call in prog on national radio needs our back up.
getiton@bbc.co.uk
Latest from beeb news.
CBI are a majority group and everyone is onboard with their negative message.
There is a piece on the Indyref on the Belfast Telegraph.
The comments are more interesting than the article:-
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/scottish-independence-yes-vote-gaining-in-new-poll-30202581.html
Bugger (the Panda) says
need bamboo
by the way
“would paliatives equate?”
Calgacus MacAndrews says:
There is a piece on the Indyref on the Belfast Telegraph.
The comments are more interesting than the article:-
Aren’t they always?
goldenayr – I hope you’re only referring to The Telegraph there and not WOS articles.
O/T
For anyone putting Yes posters etc in their window, please take a snap and share with Yes Windaes. Let’s win the windaeref.
https://twitter.com/YesWindaes
@goldenayr says:
Calgacus MacAndrews says:
There is a piece on the Indyref on the Belfast Telegraph.
The comments are more interesting than the article:-
Aren’t they always?
They normally always are.
Here’s another International novelty (with comments).
It’s Al Jazeera looking at Northern Ireland’s take on the Scottish Indyref (from February):-
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/02/n-ireland-frets-at-scotland-independence-vote-201421612192349625.html
(Warning: Contains mentions of Braveheart)
@ Betsy – Totally agree. I submitted my windae poster and my email inbox exploded, my twitter account groaned. C’mon folks click a pic, submit to YesWindaes on Twitter.
@Archie,
Excellent. The windaeref has made me raise my game a bit. I’m feeling quite competitive now. I had sent away for a few posters but now I’m knitting my own Saltire bunting to go with the posters. All showboating on my part aside, I do think it’s an easy but important step to put a yes poster up in your window. Like wearing a Yes badge, it helps normalise Yes in the face of a media that smears us as cybernats and it’s a nice wee morale boost for fellow yessers.
Sorry O/T and if anyone has posted this already – haven’t caught up yet…
Petitioning Robert Gordon University
Resign from the CBI in order to express neutrality in the independence debate.
http://tinyurl.com/lgqeunw
Can anyone advise/help me? I have been a follower of the BellaCaledonia site but since 24th March when I tried to open “The March for Dignity” post I get this red coloured message “Warning: Opera encountered errors while decoding this file”. When I tried to open the post my pc hung up and I had to switch the power off then on again. Since then this has been repeated on every occasion so that I haven’t been able to read anything at all from Bella. I’m not too pc savvy so any help will be gratefully appreciated.
Gratified to see that both my alma maters – Edinburgh & Glasgow – have left the CBI on principle. Worth a dram to toast integrity.
Slainte
@X Sticks
Signed, shared on FB & tweeted.
X_Sticks
I know next to nothing about local government finance, but I would have thought it might not be legal for publicly funded bodies to suppo4t political movements. As such, I would expect a lot more will happen on this front, once the holiday weekend is through. I think the earth is about to open for CBI Scotland, though I wouldn’t be surprised if a few local authorities tried to drag their heals over what to do.
@X_sticks –
Signed.
Number of signatories currently 114.
Signed.
Signed
@X_sticks
Signed. Thanks for highlighting this petition.
CameronB says:
X_Sticks
I think the earth is about to open for CBI Scotland
Is the earth also about to open up for CBI UK?
i.e. can public bodies in rUK (never mind just in Scotland) remain as CBI members, now that the CBI is officially no longer politically neutral?
X_Sticks – petition signed: 🙂
It’s now 127…
Come on friends, this is precisely the type of thing which allows us to flex our muscles
http://tinyurl.com/lgqeunw
Signed
Signed
Signed
Likewise, signed.
Signed.
@me@7.03 Here it is from 2:12 to 2:38 – Diabolical
PS petition signed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b041d1w6/Reporting_Scotland_21_04_2014/
Signed.
signed
I wonder if any Wings readers/writers could solve a puzzle for me. At this link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_general_election,_2011#Votes_summary
Wikipedia shows that in 2011 the SNP had 44% Greens 4.38% and Various other YES parties probably 2-3%.
Does this not mean we had won before we started?
Why all the rubbish about polls when we have actual results with no fall in support of the SNP since then and the rise of Labour for Indy?
I’m sure someone can explain this mystery – perhaps it’s why every pic I see of Alex Salmond recently shows him smiling or laughing. He knew all this in 2011. Why did no one bring it to our attention?
This is worth a watch:
Sir Mike Rake, President of CBI, speaking at the Scottish dinner last year. His comments on the referendum start at 9 mins 30 sec. Interestingly, he manages to get McMillan’s name wrong.
And WTF is up with his nose? He’s at his beak non-stop…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHSsU_03l6Q
Signed!
@ayeman says:
Sounds like Opera may have screwed up somewhere ayeman. Try uninstalling/reinstalling it.
Not an Opera expert tho’
Pace picking up, but another 838 signatures needed – let’s get them tonight so that RGU will be forced to join whoever else is bailing out from CBI tomorrow.
It’s an open door.
http://tinyurl.com/lgqeunw
Signed
If Scots vote NO in this referendum, the only thing we are certain to receive from Cameron and Osborne, is their sneering contempt.
And to be honest about it, if NO prevails, I think we would be deserving of it.
Signed and passed on to several like minded freinds who might not dip into Wings frequently enough.
signed
@ Betsy – I like your thoughts and the vision of knitting Saltire bunting. There’s many a brave man here who would wear knitted saltire swimmers….isn’t there? 🙂 I nominate Major Bloodnock as a tester, Aberdeen Beach. [Gin and Tonic]
Just to encourage you and others, I had 2 young whipper snappers laying lino in my kitchen this week. They saw the big YES letters on the window and told me of course they were voting YES but hated politicians. Go figure eh?
.RGA petition 184
Don’t want to get boring about this petition, but many folk think ‘Ach, those things don’t make any difference, no-one looks at them.’
True, up to a point – it’s not likely that anyone in RGU is going to plough their way through the petition, reading all the comments etc.
But response to this single petition sends a powerful message to other institutions involved – they won’t want to become the focus of similar attention. And petitions DO make a difference – ask Gordon Matheson of GCC, re his plans to ‘celebrate’ the demolition of the Red Road tower blocks.
http://tinyurl.com/lgqeunw
@ lumatrix
Wikipedia shows that in 2011 the SNP had 44% Greens 4.38% and Various other YES parties probably 2-3%.
Not everyone who voted SNP would necessarily vote for independence. A fair few are Devo Max fans. The SNP won a landslide largely on it’s record of governance from 2007, and partly (I think) as a protest against a shambolic Labour party.
Of course the turnout for a referendum vote we expect will be far higher than any political election = probably around 80%. So Alec had to get all his ducks lined up in a row and form cross party alliances in order to be reasonably sure of victory.
Personally, I think we’ll see a 65%+ vote for Yes on the day 🙂
I was doing YES mailshots today with my YES Cap, YES badge, YES wristband YES newspaper bag!
Nice and sunny.
cheeri
@IanBrotherhood,Sir Ian Rake ( whits up wie his nose )
A FINER STRAIN OF TALCUM POWDER PERHAPS.
Signed
lumatrix
They (Independence supporting parties) did not have a majority on the constituency vote but I think they have a very small majority in the regional vote, as some of the people like Margo only stood in the the regional part.
Signed.
OT but did anyone notice any report anywhere , either in print or broadcast about the bikers Easter egg run on Sunday?
I reckon I clapped through at least one thousand , maybe more and expected a wee snippet from our national broadcaster but nery a word.
Since the Mercury started this charity run for Yorkhill years ago it has grown and grown and I always expect them to get some wee mention somewhere ,after all they could keep their money and use their time for their own enjoyment
@ronnie anderson –
Well, if it was a regular snotter he was after, it doesn’t look like he got it. Wasn’t for want of trying though.
Usual Scotsman ‘accentuate the case for BT’ bollocks tomorrow:
https://twitter.com/p_mcpartlin/status/458357125291728896/photo/1
See if these fuckers are still in business on 19th September, I’ll be really annoyed.
Just signed petition.
O/T
Got a glimpse of Gaurdian headline on Sky and Brown is the top story.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/21/scotland-independence-gordon-brown-pensions-timebomb
Someone just told Delia Smith about the GRU/CBI petition, and she got quite emotional about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_8JLkwzpd0
Ian Brotherhood says:
“response to this single petition sends a powerful message to other institutions involved – they won’t want to become the focus of similar attention.”
Yes, it’s not just RGU that will take notice.
http://tinyurl.com/lgqeunw
@jingly jangly
Don’t you be holding up the downfall of the british establishment by keeping Rab out of action for longer than necessary. We’ve still got a shitload of painting to do:
https://twitter.com/X_Sticks_Real/status/457797694686117888/photo/1/large
Signed
Signed.
Me
Wife
Son
Daughter
Immediate In-laws(5)
Link sent to entire phone contact list.
Sorry do not do facebook/twitter, got a pal working on that.
What other Scottish CBI companies should we be targeted?
X_Sticks
You can keep him, it will save my ears from bleeding, its a long way from Ardrossan to Stafford, only problem is that I have paid for the Hotels and advance tickets
so I suppose I will have to take him 🙂
X-sticks, yep i went along to see Danny boy and his most patronising side kick tonight in Kirkhill (near Beauly). There was about 30 or so with a fair few silver haired folk. Would guess about half to two thirds were Yessers. DA went on about banking collapse, and iScot being too small. Oil declining and as such a major part of iScot economy so more impact. A few difficult questions posed, one on Standard and Poors AAA rating for iScot, local Bus for Scot rep there and asked about risk, Care worker put him on the spot about poverty and Uni credit. Said all her clients voting yes as cant possibly be worse.
I asked him if, following a Yes vote , would he work for his Highland constituents for the best for iScot or would he remain in the Treasury and fight for rUK. Didnt answer, just said always works for his constituents. All in all, they didnt have a very Better Together evening. dont recall any one from BT asking any questions.
Don’t know if you guys are aware of the YES shop that’s opened in Irvine. Top of the high st, at the start of bus route.
Signed
Signed
@ Alan Mackintosh
Haha, thanks for the update, sounds like the slippery wee shite didn’t have a very good night. Was the audience mostly Yes people then?
@willie
How is the YES vote in Kilwinning, every time I drive through Kilwinning it has Union Jacks a plenty.
@Alan Mackintosh –
Do you know if there are any images available? I just can’t get enough of Danny Alexander…fwooaargh!
@Ian
Glutton for punishment, eh?
Signed for RGU!
@X_sticks –
Danny Alexander…punishment…
Fwoooargh!!
‘Give me the moonlight, give me Danny and a paddle, and leave the rest to me…’
The DM report on this has got the usual responses. Dave says ‘Let the parasitic ingrates leave, and leave quick’. Nice eh? Another says he can’t wait for the whingers to go as they ‘are several decades behind us socially’. God, is this what my neighbours think of my family and country?
@Ian
If you go along with Danny you’ll be up the proverbial crack without a paddle 😀
Aye, somebody was up the back and filmed the whole thing, and was taking stills. didnt speak to him, he was away quite quick at the end. Dropping in comments about finding things out on Wings.
Dannys sidekick Katie Stephens was atrocious, spent he first 5 mins of her address to basically say, Now children, play nice… She was added in to the odd comment from DA and really was patronising to audience.
I spoke to him later and queried his insistence that the banks couldnt have been bailed out. When I mentioned the Fed bailing out Barclays and RBS to about 400Bn he denied this happened and that the bailout happened at UK level. Said it was a story put out by Bus for Scot, I will be asking about that…
Oops..
Creek
Posted this elsewhere.
“Business for Scotland make it very clear to potential new members they are pro indy and as such they should not join if they do not agree.
Between this forced cock up by the CBI and Cam having his daddy’s bankrupt pal in a rather sensitive job, it has been a good week for YES.
The Yes campaign, and remember that includes Labour for independence and the conservative Wealthy Nation, has not only the impetus, but there is the opportunity for both those groups mentioned to be the natural opposition to the hated london tories and “one nation scottish labour”
Imagine a Scottish parliament full of politicians who ALL have Scotland’s interest at heart above all else.
Sounds good to me”.
Alan
Do you think DA will get voted out at next GE 2015.
Caz-m,
Just recently moved here. Noticed a few Saltires fluttering down in the blacklands area. Mine will be going up shortly.
Good turnout at recent meeting in the community centre a few weeks ago.
@Alan Mackintosh
“Aye, somebody was up the back and filmed the whole thing”
That must have been Ian 😉
I hope they post the video, I do have a unionist car-crash fetish.
@X_sticks –
I have no idea what pushes Danny’s buttons, but if it’s all consensual, and carried out under appropriate supervision, I’m more than happy to meet him at a time and place of his choosing. He can bring his favoured paddle, table-tennis bat, cat-o-nine-tails, what-evs, and I’ll happily thrash the living bejabbers out of him for as long as he likes.
We could sell tickets for it (to raise funds for BT) and we’d definitely get more of a crowd than he raised tonight.
Caz-m dunno, Liberals have a strong historical showing in the highlands. Charlie Kennedy, John Farquhar Munro(late), Robert Maclennan(late) and often it tends to a personal vote as they are local and are seen to work well and be liked. Different to other areas where often someone gets dropped in with a rosette with no links to the area. And always a difference between the msp vote and the mp vote. Things are changing though and the coalition may have been their undoing
@ Alan Mackintosh
Link to story on US bank bailout.
http://www.newstatesman.com/2010/12/financial-british-money-fed
Meanwhile in the Borders;
https://twitter.com/robbie_d88/status/458219194908418048/photo/1
@Alan
But he is morphing into a London Tory, he has even lost is Scots accent.
Speaking with a Scots accent doesn’t go down well Central London old chap.
@Ian
“appropriate supervision”
My mind is boggling 😉
@X_sticks –
‘Appropriate supervision’ would really have to involve the state broadcaster. I’d settle for a live link via the Fred MacAuley show – they say ‘the pictures are better on radio’, and it’d be a sight funnier than anything he’s done in that shift. (Plus, imagine the sound effects?!)
Fwatoooosh!
Aya!
Suffer Danny, suffer!
Hello Ivan,
You better get to bed, you will have a long day ahead of tomorrow rebutting the latest Gordon Brown pensions scare story.
I know a £100 Billion black hole was mentioned, but I don’t know what it was related to.
Thanks Ivan. thats more than I thought, I had a figure of £400Bn Sterling in my mind, but that shows a figure of £640Bn. Oh aye and at the end in discussion he was going on about AS not coming out of his bunker to debate with DA. Or flipper, so I pointed out that flipper is only a backbench labour MP. DA said he is the head of BT, to which my riposte was then Dennis Canavan is head of Yes campaign. I then said if he debates with you, are you in a position of authority to give any guarantees of further powers in event of a no vote? No answer…
@X-Sticks
If you need an extra pair o hands wi the pentin let me ken.
Have (wifes) car, will travel.
Also got a matchin blue biley 🙂
Just awa to zedz right now but will check in again a.m.
Cheers
RGU signed
@Ivan McKee,I hope that at some point during a televised interview You or Gordon get a chance with Danny A/A Darling /Brown, to put the record straight once & for all
on the banking bail out,here’s hoping its before the 18th Sept.
@Ian
That would boost “funny-man” Fred’s listening figures off the scale!
@SquareHaggis
Aye, SH, that would be good. Saturday’s are pentin day if that’s good for you – we’ll hook up later in the week if you’re up for it.
GTG get some indy dreams, only ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-NINE days to go folks.
Shorts! I’m probably going to dream of Danny, paddles, bondage and Fred! Sometimes you can get too much of a good thing. 😀
Just over the 250 mark.
So, we’ve only (helped) add 140 or so names in the past, what, two and a half hours?
Not impressive.
The response when Rev launched the last fundraiser was astonishing – this petition, in its own way, is just as important.
Come on – let’s give it a proper heave!
http://tinyurl.com/lgqeunw
‘ian brotherhood, traffics a bit slow, people still on weekend hols keep puting it up every day.
IB – Thinking the same thing myself re petition numbers versus the crowdfund, however, people may be in bed in prep for work tomorrow after the hols,or still homeward bound.
Hopefully we’ll see a surge in signatories tomorrow, although the situation may have snowballed by then anyway.
@ronnie anderson –
Will do.
Without any assistance from us, Danny Alexander is getting his bahooky spanked on a daily basis from now until Sep 18th, or whenever he quits, whichever is first – his arse will look more like his face (rid-raw and desperate) than it already does.
Re. The CBI Scotland’s chairman, John Howie. I would imagine he might have to resign from Scottish Enterprise’s Aerospace, Defence and Marine Industry Advisory Group and the Advisors Board for Strathclyde University Business School and a member of Scottish Engineering’s Executive Committee.
Who knew the head of CBI Scotland, benefited so directly from his relationship with the Ministry of Defence and TRIDENT?
http://www.cbi.org.uk/about-the-cbi/uk/scotland/chairmans-biography/
Signed (with pleasure) 😉
Signed. Good luck.
@CameronB –
Aye. Be it cock-up or not, CBI Scotland’s stance has started sharpening attention on these people and what they’re all about, and it’s not pretty – these characters prefer to stay in the shadows for good reason, right?
So now, thanks to Iain McMillan (and his handlers), we’re seeing the capitalist structure within Scotland being laid bare – it’s a sorry picture indeed.
Where’s Michelle Bra-Woman now? What’s her take on all this?
Where’s Douglas ‘Ice-cream-van-man’ Bannatyne?
Where’s Ian Taylor?
I can’t think of any more – all the gobshites who’ve free access to the papers on a daily basis…they’re awfy quiet right now, eh?
They should all be asked to give one reason – just ONE – why Iain McMillan hasn’t resigned.
X_Sticks.
Signed, Drummer-Boy. I’m also up for a bit of ‘paint-tin’, you know how to get me.
Though in my case, it’s more likely to be ‘creak’.
Just a quick reminder folks, only £400 to go to reach the total for 10,000 YES saltires.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/10-000-flags-for-yes–11#home
“they’re awfy quiet right now, eh?”
you do realise it’s the middle of the night? 😉
A2 – No here it isnae ;0)
“The YES shop is at 136 Hope Street”
I assume the NO shop is at Fear Street.
@caz-m at 10.49pm
Ref Guardian article on Brown’s pension intervention I read this comment.
“I’ve been through 2 referendums on Quebec… The nastiness is just starting. Wait ’till august…you wont believe the disinformation that will come from London inc.”
We’ve seen this nastiness started but we probably haven’t seen the worse of what’s to come. We have to be ready for more disiformation and have our counter arguments prepared. It’s how this disinformation will scare/affect soft No and Yes voters that will worry me as was ssen by the close No vote in the last Quebec indyref less than 1% if my memory serves me right. Heaven forbid if the same result was to happen on the 18th September here in Scotland.
Signed
Signed
Rev, check out BBC News at 05:49 hrs were the guest speaker talks of Brent Oil price being “adjusted” because the oil fields are shrinking.
Signed!
Though at first, I wonder what it was I was signing! I’ve spent 3 days studying hard, and just saw a comment by Ian Brotherhood saying the numbers were not quite there.
Groan! It’s not easy trying to focus on the news, Independence and trying to do a bit of studying and still knowing I will be starting work in 2 and half hours time…uuurgh….
signed
Ian Brotherhood says
“Do you know if there are any images available? I just can’t get enough of Danny Alexander…fwooaargh!”
How many bottles of “Ginger Rodent” have you drunk?
(other beverages are available)
Xsticks says
“If you go along with Danny you’ll be up the proverbial crack without a paddle :D”
What? Osbournes crack you mean?
Craig says
“I assume the NO shop is at Fear Street.”
Nope, its in NO HOPE STREET.
Ian Brotherhood says
“Without any assistance from us, Danny Alexander is getting his bahooky spanked on a daily basis from now until Sep 18th, or whenever he quits, whichever is first – his arse will look more like his face (rid-raw and desperate) than it already does.”
What young Alexander D and Flashman aka Osbourne get up to in the dorm after lights out is none of our business.
Croompenstien says @ me 7.03
that news report is indeed despicable and the gratuitous inclusion of that statement from the CBI is SO in breach of the BBC’s own guidelines, did you pass this to NNS for their evidence?
I’ve tried several times to sign the RGU petition,but it always tells me there’s an error and to try again later.
Signed.
I think the put off with these petitions is the need to insert your full name, address, e-mail etc.
Signed
Signed. Was going to say that the slowish uptake of signings might have been due to the time of evening the link was posted, but going by the post times of a lot of you looks like I might be a bit of a lightweight to the cause…
Signed. I went to RGU, hope they’ll come round.
I think the phrase “economically illiterate” as stated by the SNP Work and Pensions spokesperson Eilidh Whiteford,
sums up brilliantly what Gordon Brown is all about.
I think every Scot has the right to tell the
Ex-Prime Minister,
“Gordon Brown you are economically illiterate”
Yeh, I like the sound of that.
X-Sticks, left u a message in off top
Signed RGU
Rev – wonder if you might want to follow this up with all your MSM Media connections “dan saf” 🙂
The CBI story is going to keep on running. According to Wikipedia the head of ITV Roger Crozier (originally from Bute) sits on the CBI Presidents Committee. It would seem like he would need to resign and withdraw ITV, same as STV had to. Would be would be a major upset to loose people from top CBI level!
Channel 5 is now owned by Northern & Shell – unclear if they are CBI members, but they are run by an ‘old friend’ Richard Desmond also of the Daily Express. Would be unfortunate if he also had to resign …
So I have asked Ofcom if they will be checking status of all UK broadcasters …
Of course same issues would apply to any UK member Company of CBI wanting to remain Neutral – like all those that distenced themselves from comments by individuals (eg. BP)not just those based in Scotland or on CBI Scotland Council.
@Ian Brotherhood earlier questioned CBI actions as “as bit insane” being understatment… even that is now looking like being generous to them for a fiasco.
Signed.
Singned
caz-m
Hate to be a pedant but should it not be
economically innumerate
Am I the only one around here who thinks this is worthy of a few squids?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/twothumbsfresh-tv
Interesting post over at the HuffPo. Just watch for the comments that follow over the course of the day.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/james-gibson/independent-scotland-westminster-austerity_b_5177530.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
Bugger (the Panda)
That would depend on whether the topic is economic theory or statistical analysis and extrapolation 🙂
@Bugger (the Panda)
“economically innumerate”, that as well Panda.
But I do like Ms Whiteford’s “economically illiterate”. phrase as well.
Choices, choices.
I think we can agree that the Economy and Gordon Brown should never be together again.
Brown is not “economically illiterate”. That he is not is in fact the problem. He read economics widely and he bought the snake oil, because he thought it was a wonder drug. Just like most politicians.
The problem is that economics, as it is currently constituted, is no longer a respectable academic discipline. It is a figleaf for plutocracy and to give legitimacy to the self interest of the very wealthy.
Mr Brown is culpable because he read narrowly, and he should have known better: but no more culpable than all the other politicians who have busily impoverished the majority in the name of an economic “theory” which has not even surface plausibility to commend it. Useful idiots
Basically the guy cannae count.
number blind
@Jim T
lol.
You took the words out of my mouth, I was just about to say that.
Honest!
Fiona
In many ways economics is still a science in the making. Economic predictions are just guesses based on personal opinion and bias.
Ask ten economists, at random, a question and you will get at least eleven answers.
Just a reminder that today is ‘failed politicians day’ in Scotland.
So remember to look out for all things Brown & Scary!
Heard a brilliant snippet on breakfast TV today.
Female bigshot from ‘Facebook’ suggests inroad, insight into womens issues and confidence progression into job market / life generally.
“Imagine what you would do if you weren’t afraid; then go out and do it”
I like the sound of that.
@Ronnie says:
“I’m also up for a bit of ‘paint-tin’, you know how to get me.”
I’ll give you a call Ronnie, thanks for the offer. At work now so can’t stay out to play right now.
Bet he can count his wages though.
Broons pension fund arithmetic class…
“One for me ..none for you..skim for me…skint for you…take from you…build HS2…”
Is Brown saying today that Scots pensioners are actually getting their pension topped up by the UK Government and this top-up could never be afforded by an Independent Scotland.
I just can’t get to the bottom of what Gordon Brown is trying to say.
Hopefully one of you economists would give me a no bullshit, unbiased answer.
BtPanda, @9.05 Were you sitting too close to the fire? Black white and brown
How can anyone listen to Brown! To all his Labour supporters in FIFE , he STOLE money from your pension funds! How can he advise anyone! I’m so ashamed of Gordon Brown!
Im guessing that when the pension funds were “dipped” into a few years back, the westminster gov only skimmed that couple hundred billion from the E/NI/W pension funds and not from Scottish pensioners…?
@caz-m 9:39
deepest apologies. I was at a “proper” keyboard (not that dodgy screen based midgety thing on a phone) and managed to type it fairly quickly 🙂
@heraldnomore
Yes read Huffington Post article. Very interesting.
What about this one ref Brown’s speech on Pensions today.
rt.com/news/scotland-independence-poll-labour-956/
And the following comment. WOW!!! Sure we’ll get looked after.
“I’m a Yorkshireman myself, the wife is Welsh but we now live in London.
Having never been to Scotland it is undeniably obvious to me that Scotland would be looked after far better by remaining under the control of Westminster.
After all they have an inferior education system, can barely speak the Queens tongue, have squandered there natural resources, have a population per sq mile greater than London, will one day lose their wind power and I expect that within a generation drought conditions will turn Scotland into South Sudan.
Clearly England will look after you.”
Will someone please ask Irn Broon what his marks were in Higher Maths!
It must be a matter of public record in any case.
Where are the “journalists” when you need them?
@Gin –
‘A bit insane’ is how Ivan McKee described the CBI decision, and I was quoting him. He was right, eh?
As for GB, let’s see if he hangs about to answer any questions at all – if enough disgruntled pensioners and pensioners-to-be get their hands on him it’ll be like the last scene in Suskind’s Perfume
Why do you believe that Mr Brown stole your pensions? I do not think that is true and the perception was promoted by right wing media which most people here do not accept as a fount of truth and wisdom. What is the difference here?
x sticks,
Just love the signs. I have been visualising one in my garden in sight of a slow, single lane bend. Unfortunately, in reality, there is very little passing traffic and most of that is holiday makers of other nations, so it would be wasted.
OK – what happened to my carefully crafted dissection of GB’s 100Bn thingy?
@Alan MacKintosh
My glasses weren’t working at that time.
Mind you some time I just feel burned out. I’ll need to lay off the wine infused bamboo shoots. Great delicacy but makes the eyes go funny in the morning.
Was out all yesterday working for the Yes campaign so I have just found out about the petition. Duly signed.
@JimT
I also made a post which did not appear. Something funny going on?
cearc says:
“Just love the signs. I have been visualising one in my garden”
We are looking for locations for these in West Aberdeenshire/Aberdeen.
Ideally we want main thouroughfares with high visibility and not too close to the road. Anyone wishing to volunteer just give me a shout on here or put a post onto the West Aberdeenshire facebook page and we’ll pick it up there.
@Fiona
On two counts GB helped himsdelf to peoples’ pension money.
First was the pension funds of the erstwhile nationalised industries, British Steel, NCB, etc. These were guaranteed by UK Gov to allow them to be privatised as no purchaser wanted the obligation only the assets. The Treasury then declared a dividend to themselves with increase in share prices thus reducing the value of the assets as they plummeted and HM Treasury did not put into the pot to redress what they had filched. I am surprised that the TUs did not hang him for that alone.
Second he taxed all private pensions, thereby lifted quite few billions out of the pension pots. Normally these pensions would only be taxed during draw down and be subject to various tax allowances. By reducing the pension pot it reduced the earnings ability of these funds.
He also sold a large chunk of the B of E’s Gold Reserves at rock bottom prices, after telling everybody he was going to sell it and the price dropped overnight.
The is economic illiteracy, innumeracy and insanity all wrapped up together.
@Fiona
I have a wee suspicion that one of the three or four links I included might have had a rogue http:// left in 🙁
If so, humblest and most grovelling apologies Rev. …bow…scrape…bow….scrape
Fiona
Here is a link to a DT article about the Pension Raids, OK it is a right wing publication but they state it cost the Pension Funds £100 billion.
‘geeo 10.03, then yer guess is wrong,I lost £49k with all
the adjustments to private pensions,market’s collapsing
ect ect ect.Fuck it I,ll never get that money back, but I
try & make sure that my Fanily/GChildren/GGChildren dont
ever have to suffer the coming Austerity from Westminster,
there is no other choice for people living in Scotland
but to vote for a Free Scotland.
@Bugger the PandaBritish Steel used the Pension Fund as
their own private bank, useing that fund for investments
but no return of intrest to the pension fund,I for one
would like to see the accounts of British Steel Pension
Fund transfers.
http://tinyurl.com/kpolr7
Sorry about the omission of the link earlier, my computer froze and had to do a hard boot. My comment disappeared and must have been posted during the mess.
Note that the calculation of £100 billion is on the low side and the caslculation was carried out for the Institute of Actuaries. It appears that Tony Blair opposed the grab but Broon clunked the desk with his fist and did it anyway.
@Ronnie Anderson
So did Robert Maxwell.
Incidentally, I am not sure if British Steel only had a pension obligation from the time of privatisation like the NCB.
Can you help me out here?
Bugger the Panda 11.08, sorry Panda cant help you there,
but with British Steel even after MC Greggor they were
still raiding the pension funds to save on Bank Intrest
Charges or Gov funding.
Brown did the exact same thing Osbourne will do in a couple of years…voluntary pension funds will be fair game
@ Bugger (the panda)
There was no raid on the private pension funds: he abolished a tax relief, which is not quite the same thing. He did it to raise money, certainly: but he also closed a tax loophole which meant that many shareholders paid no tax at all on dividends received. That was the reason the right wing press attempted to pretend that this was a raid on your pension and mine: they have to promote the idea we are all on the same side whether that is true or not.
The fact is that there was no need at all to close final salary schemes because of the abolition of ACT. Employers took “contribution holidays” to the tune of £17 billion in 4 years and they got used to not paying them. They liked it.
http://www.ipe.com/uk-pension-schemes-took-e26bn-in-contribution-holidays/6717.article
@ Bugger (the Panda)
Not sure what you are talking about in relation to British Steel’s pension fund.
http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2009-01-27/corus-closes-british-steel-pension-scheme
“It was well-placed going into the financial crisis, having adjusted its allocation to hold 70% in fixed income and only 30% in equities and other risky assets which have been hurt by the crisis. In its statement today Corus maintained that the pension fund was in a “healthy position” but said it was closing it “in line with market practice”.”
Any excuse is the name of the game here
Further to that this exchange in Hansard answers your question about the fund before nationalisation
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmhansrd/vo000607/halltext/00607h03.htm
Just clocked who you are Fiona
BtP, I wouldn’t be too sure. Nor would I hang on Fiona’s every word, personally. Speaking from many years experience.