The point of politics
There’s an interesting article in today’s Guardian about the clown-shoed fiasco of a position the Labour Party has contorted itself into over Trident. It correctly identifies the conflict between a party representing its actual membership and being controlled by its Parliamentarians who insist they know better than the people they’re supposed to speak for, but then right at the end veers off to an irrational conclusion.
Because the obsessive insistence of the vast majority of commentators that political parties – and they’re nearly always talking about Labour – must at all times pander to the centre ground leads inescapably to one logical endpoint: that all political parties should disband themselves immediately and forever.
The history of civilisation is the history of the abandonment of ideas which were once mainstream, orthodox and normal. It used to be the “centre ground” position that the Earth was flat and the Sun moved around it. It used to be the accepted wisdom that illnesses were caused by demons and evil spirits, not germs and genes. It used to be considered sensible and just to burn people as witches.
Humanity has no excuse for forgetting these things, because some of them have barely left us. There are still, in the 21st Century, countries on the face of the planet where you can be legally put to death by the government for changing your religion, or for not having one at all.
The world changes because people fight to move the location of the “centre”. (And not always for good – the Nazis persuaded an entire enlightened nation that it was fine to murder people on an industrial scale for being a bit different to them, and by sustained campaigning over the last 30 years or so the UK press have successfully wrought a massive negative change in the public’s attitude towards people in receipt of benefits.)
If it was insanity to persist with a policy opposed by the majority of the population, the SNP would have abandoned independence decades ago. As recently as April 2008 the idea trailed by a colossal 34 points in opinion polls.
(The same poll, incidentally, found an equally-huge majority AGAINST Holyrood being given tax powers to raise its own money instead of the block grant, exactly the policy currently being pushed through in the Scotland Bill.)
Political parties exist to drive change, not to meekly reflect the current view of the electorate. They exist to fight for principles, and to give people who support those principles a voice. If every party stands for the same things, then parties may as well not exist. There might as well only be one party.
(The logical extrapolation of the “Labour moderates” position is that since the Tories won the election, the electorate must be Tory and so the only way to win is to also be Tory, therefore everyone in Labour should join the Conservative Party.)
The views of the electorate can be changed, and very often are. That’s what politics is for. Less than 100 years ago British politics were a contest between the Tories and the Liberals. 100 years before that the opposition party was the Whigs. Women have been permitted to vote in the UK for less than a century, and 20-year-olds have been able to vote for less than half that.
Anyone reading this article could with the benefit of half an hour’s Googling produce a list of revolutionary changes in British public attitudes over their own personal lifetime that was as long as their arm. Millions of current UK citizens were born before the NHS existed. Homosexuality was an imprisonable offence well within living memory (as recently as 1980 in Scotland). Etc etc.
A poll released today by Ipsos Mori shows that merely by asking essentially the same question in a slightly different way you can effect a dramatic shift in the result.
That’s how easy it is to move the “centre ground”. Any politician (or pundit) who uses “This is where public opinion is, so this is where we must be” as an argument is not fit for their job. Because if they got their way, they wouldn’t have one at all.
Excellent – how many realise they have been led down the path of demonising benefit recipients and that this is deliberate – we have to stand up and defend anyone receiving benefits because we are all only 2 salaries/illness/cancer diagnosis away from requiring them and every time someone talks about benefit cheats just tell them about tax havens, mp’s expenses, bank bonuses, tax dodgers, google, starbucks, amazon etc and that benefit cheats make up a tiny %age of benefits paid.
Puts me in mind of the following:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA
How a question is asked is extremely important.
Very good article. Who would have predicted even a decade ago that a self proclaimed socialist in America, Bernie Saunders, would beat Hillarly Clinton and win the New Hampshire primary, in the Democratic race for the presidency? I see he is the first Jewish American to win a primary election, which is a fantastic achievement in itself for Saunders. Feel the Bern, `mon the Bern! 😀
That’s a keeper. 🙂
wow, how loaded were these old poll questions on the constitution?
I wonder what the results would be to:
“Do you agree that Scotland should be a normal country that governs itself”?
The corporate media is doing what Stuart is hinting at – taking the role that a political party should have i.e. shaping opinion in a direction its owners want. Labour in England and SNP in Scotland are threats to this. So, in England, Corbyn Labour is bad because it’s at odds with ‘mainstream opinion’. In Scotland, SNP is bad but because they ‘are populist’ (not my label by the way) and hypocrisy is the name of the stick:
It goes like this: SNP are popular and seem to be making popular policy choices; this is populism and it’s hypocritical because they’re supposed to be something else (left wing, social democrats, not right of centre): ergo, SNP bad.
At WM the view of what the majority want is always (in living memory) skewed by the totally undemocratic first past the post system.
The UK is ruled by governments the majority of voters didn’t want.
Governments which proceeded to change society completely and irreversibly did not receive a majority of votes cast. Two obvious examples are Thatcher in 1979 with 43.9% of votes cast and Attlee in 1945 with 47.7%. Both proceeded to change the UK totally. Neither had a moral mandate, both had near absolute power.
Other countries with PR systems invariably have many parties spread across the political spectrum. The UK’s dreadful WM system simply fails to represent people’s widely varied views. Every democratic nation needs parties in the centre, but also policy specific ones like Greens or regional parties, and of course the extremes of Left and Right.
No PR, no democratic representation.
Spot on. I remember many (25 maybe!) years ago talking to the late Alan McKinnon of Scottish CND (I think we were selling the Morning Star outside Hillhead underground at the time). Alan was due to respond to the accusation that CND didn’t reflect public opinion. Our though was: we’re not in the business of *reflecting* public opinion, we’re in the business of *forming* public opinion.
And it would help even more if those same papers etc told their readers the truth
“This is where public opinion is, so this is where we must be”
When I read that the first thing that came to mind was the Blairite Labour Party – 1997 to the present day.
galamcennalath – not only is the House of Commons run on FPTP with no say for the electorate in the intervening five years – perhaps the least democratic form of participatory democracy – the other two branches of executive power, the House of Lords and the Monarchy, are completely untouchable by the electorate. How the UK has functioned so long with such an archaic system beggars belief.
Excellent article – if only it could be read outwith those who access Wings.
O/T
The latest edition of The Scottish Review contains a report detailing the extra-parliamentary earnings and financial interests of the SNP’s 54+2 MPs.
Although most of it is pretty small beer which in my view reflects the situation with the population outside politics I have no doubt that it will be leapt upon with glee by the usual suspects and twisted and shouted from the rooftops by the MSM.
It would be an interesting exercise if a similar exercise could be carried out on the rest of WM’s incumbents.
I think you deserve a title upgrade Rev.- Very Rev, or Prof Rev?
Clear easy to follow article, many good points for Yes2 campaigning.
Jimbo says:
” “This is where public opinion is, so this is where we must be”
When I read that the first thing that came to mind was the Blairite Labour Party”
WM has a system which encourages this as opposed to parties settling on principles, sticking to them and trying to attract voters to their policies. However, Labour chase Tory voters, Tories chase ‘aspirational’ Labour voters and UKIP anti immigrant voters.
To win at ‘WM’ you must get enough MPs and to do that you have to chase the polls. Policies are flexible and disposable. Principles are a hindrance to success.
As I said above, WM needs PR to encourage the growth of smaller more focused and probably more principled parties.
Jack Straw’s chances of a peerage were scuppered by Corbyn, the fault lies not with the odious creep Straw but that any party leader can pack a second chamber.
Excellent article, I have taken a slight interest in NLP of late and the last point pretty much sums up my basic conclusions of that thus far. The words and questioning techniques get you to a different conclusion.
I’d advise anyone interested on how public perception can be changed or manipulated to invest a few quid in a book called The Nudge Unit, it’s about a government backed programme called Behavioural Insights Team – it really is quite fascinating.
Just because you’re part of the majority doesn’t make you right, it merely makes you part of the majority.
Where would we be if the SNP had simply given up because of poll results?
O/T On what I would call the “success” of the Orkney 4 in their campaign which benefits the entire people of the UK, Angles or Jocks, Nawbags or Cybernats alike, there is another campaign which I think deserves attention.
This is the long-running campaign for justice for Willie McRae. If anyone is interested, here is a recording of an interesting stage play produced at the Edinburgh Fringe.
http://www.justiceforwillie.com/2016/02/09/art-is-a-hammer/
Onwards
at 11:32
“wow, how loaded were these old poll questions on the constitution?
I wonder what the results would be to:
“Do you agree that Scotland should be a normal country that governs itself”?”
I know that I am repeating myself here but to my mind there are only two questions.
1/ Do you agree that a country should govern itself. Yes or No?
2/ Do you agree that Scotland is a country. Yes or No?
Excellent.Thought provoking.We’ll never find Utopia,but that shouldn’t stop us trying to improve.
This proves that Labour politicians find it easier to shout an opinion than to study something.
Great article, and in particular the centre ground statement. Opinions do change and can change over time.
The establishment control the Media. The media shapes the publics opinion. Unionist politicians & candidates seek to be rewarded for following the establishment when in office or to be elected by mirroring the shaped public opinion….and so it continued until the Internet broke the bond.
As for Labour…the Whigs of the 21st. century.
Good read.
While I believe political parties policies have to evolve with the times, they also need to remain true to the principles they were founded on.
Labour’s tack to the centre wasn’t done out of any high minded principle, but political opportunism to gain power at any cost.
The demonization of those in receipt of benefits by Labour under both Blair and Brown, was done to persuade middle England Tory voters and to show Labour wasn’t the party of Welfare.
We saw during the general election how desperate Miliband and Labour were to distance themselves from Cameron’s Jibe that Labour was the party of Welfare.
No so long ago everyone was sitting at home with a newspaper stuck under their nose. Now many of us are sitting with our noses stuck in the computer. Some even ‘nosying into Wings’ which IS changing opinion and has only been around for 4 years or so.
How things change, eh!
The paradox – as articulated by the Blairites – is that to make changes, you need to get your party elected. And if your principles don’t have popular support, you don’t get elected.
The problem is that by abandoning principles in order to get elected, no one knows what your party stands for any longer. And that appears to be the current fate of Labour and of the Lib Dems.
For parties that are prepared to play the long game, such as the SNP or the Greens, life is a little simpler. But the experience of being in government is seductive, and were the SNP to be returned to opposition, I would not be surprised to start hearing arguments that they needed to adjust their principles…I hope they wouldn’t, but being booted out of power does strange things to parties.
Is it a case of, tell the people what to think, then tell the people that their opinions are being reflected. I have a little book, called, ‘ Let the People Think’ by Bertrand Russell. 1941. A book by the ‘Thinkers Library’. Some people just do not want to think, so the thinkers have to do it for them.
Think is quite a strange word and possibly out of fashion now.
Re; The Man in the Jar@12.23
It would be interesting to do a survey on your second question. Scotland is not considered a country, by most of the population S of the border, and still by many N of the border.
Some opinions do change, slowly …
Latest Ipsos-Mori
Should Scotland be an independent country?
Yes 52%
No 48%
Excellent Read
Blue Tories – Don’t look at their little red dead eyes,they will try to move you with their tractor beams.
Red Tories – Don’t listen to them,forked tongues,’vote for us we’re good and we have a special this week….a no honk guarantee’.
Clowns to the left of me,jokers….
I’ll stay where I am thanks.
SNP x 2
Excellent article. I only wish they had someone as competent as yourself on mainstream media.
You always shine a light on the dark places,where we have been denied access for so long.
Great article..!
“..Political parties exist to drive change, not to meekly reflect the current view of the electorate..
They exist to fight for principles, and to give people who support those principles a voice”.
I believe Bertrand Russell also said “Most people would rather die than think, many do”
winifred mccartney says:
10 February, 2016 at 11:15 am
Excellent – how many realise they have been led down the path of demonising benefit recipients and that this is deliberate – we have to stand up and defend anyone receiving benefits because we are all only 2 salaries/illness/cancer diagnosis away from requiring them and every time someone talks about benefit cheats just tell them about tax havens, mp’s expenses, bank bonuses, tax dodgers, google, starbucks, amazon etc and that benefit cheats make up a tiny %age of benefits paid.
Spot on!
But remember not to forget the House of Lords, the Monarchy, the Military and the dubious charities!
@galamcennalath
Ayup, clocked that and you beat me to the draw. 😀
There’s a perfect storm brewing this year. How, what or if HMG delivers on its referendum pledges. Osborne’s Spring budget. The Holyrood elections and last but not least, the upcoming EU referendum.
Tick tock. 🙂
Imagine the response to:
“Does Westminster govern Scotland well?” (Yes/No).
“Would Holyrood govern Scotland better than Westminster governs Scotland?” (YES/NO).
“Would you allow your neighbour to run your household?” (YES/NO).
SNP x 2 = IndyRef 2
The thing about change is that it often means the end of the road for the powerful and influential, if they cant or wont change too. The Church is a good example and SLabour look like they’re permanently on the down escalator . Another big nail in the red tory coffin waiting to be walloped in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33537550
@Onwards
“wow, how loaded were these old poll questions on the constitution?”
Yes, they were loaded and not really old the SSAS survey for instance had an independence question which included both ‘Europe’ and ‘separate’ in its format for many years up to the referendum campaign.
To be fair, the question the SNP touted pre 2006 also included Europe.
However I am willing to bet that you, along with most of the electorate, would be surprised, even yet, to hear that there were also many polls with straight indy Y/N type questions carried out over that period.
Until 2006. They averaged 54% Yes (excluding DKs).
But these were so successfully ‘buried’, for example not appearing in ‘Scottish Affairs’ or in briefings for MSPs in Parliament, to the extent that I am convinced even our SNP MSPs did not know of them.
Furthermore, a series sponsored by the Scotsman had two instances one in 1999 and the other in 2000 where the same respondents in the same questionnaire were presented both with the straight indy Y/N question AND one where indy was tied to ‘Europe’ and ‘separate’, The result was again 54% average for the first format and mid 20s for the second. I know of no clearer example of how question format can influence response.
But note that even though the compromised response for those two Scotsman polls was included in a report in Scottish Affairs and MSP briefings it was described as just ‘support for independence’ with no mention of Europe/Separate and the straight indy Y/N response was simply not reported.
In 2006/7, for whatever reason, the SNP dropped Europe from the question format and commissioned two straight indy Y/N polls. Again they were around 54% Yes, neglecting DKs.
Soon after gaining minority government for some other reason, probably pressure from the EC/Whitehall, they changed the proposed format of the question from independence to ‘begin negotiations with Westminster for independence’
This question format was regularly polled thereafter.
There was an immediate 5%- 10% drop in Yes response compared to the independence question. This was never categorically proven, but my suspicion was that it was largely due to indy plus supporters who did not like the thought of ‘negotiating’ at all and used the poll to register that protest. If correct then that was surely only indicative yet again of the difference between survey polling and actual voting. I am sure the fundies would still have voted yes even if the question had remained thus.
However, given this apparent question format delta, it still provided an ongoing monitor of a near indy question without the Europe/Separate bogey words even though straight indy Y/N polling stopped at this point.
Generally No was higher than Yes for the new format question but not always and the two ran close – until the bank crisis and the deceitful machinations of Brown and Darling. That had a real and clear impact on indy support.
Ironically, by the time indyref1 came along, the question actually used was back to a straight indy Y/N format but we still suffered from the banking deception the true nature of which is still largely unknown.
But as always as far as our marvellous principle media are concerned “Its all about the economy with the truth Stupid!”
The centre ground is an ideological Flat Earth.
The centre ground – Centreground – is the real Oceania. It’s a misty plateau we all ended up on when the communist threat to the capitalist world order was extinguished a quarter century ago, and the historical process officially ‘ended’.
We’ve been marooned there ever since: hemmed in by a spiralling barbed wire of debt and treacherous marshes of diminishing wealth and employment prospects beyond.
Chinese dragons and other assorted oriental beasts lie in wait to devour our precarious world at any moment.
For a generation it looked like there was no prospect of escape. The iron statue of Thatcher towers over the people next to the Teflon mannequin of Blair.
But now there is hope, comrades.
In a bid for independence, exploiting their marginal position, the Scottish revolutionaries have been hard at work digging digital tunnels and jumping electoral fences. Lately the rabid attack dogs of Centreground have been roused, and on them like a shot. There have been near misses and failures. Casualties continue to mount, but the fight for freedom goes on.
Meanwhile, from their grey hut next door, the old British left have been observing the Scots and begun planning their own escape route. Maps have been brought out pointing the way to long-forgotten principles. Old ideological weapons have been dusted down and reassembled. Their flat-capped leader Corbyn has roused them out of their false consciousness.
But the Corbynites face their own dreadful challenges. For living among them are former comrades turned Centreground SS paramilitaries – the Continuity New Labour. Can any of them be awoken to the cause of progress and liberty? And if not, are the Corbynites willing and able to slay them in their beds before attempting a dramatic dawn escape?
Stay tuned…
I was made redundant last year but paid up to
The last day of the year.
I reported to the DSS on their first day back
After the holidays, only to be sent away, as it
Is now your own responsibility to fill in your job
Seekers claim on line?
A day later you get a call telling you to report back
To square one for an interview.
There they ask you to justify why you didn’t
Claim benefit, or job seek during the Holidays?
Not only do I lose the first 4 days of the year,
The Tories have decided that you also lose the first
7 days from when you make a claim?
It also transpires that you get paid fort nightly in arrears?
I have been working for 45 years that included lots of
Productivity bonuses and overtime.
I’m now obliged on a daily basis to prove
I’m not a malingerer, or I get nothing?
I recall that job speakers once lasted for
A full year, but now it’s 6 months.
They have also decided that my wife’s part
Time job is actually full time?
I got another job within a month, during
Which time I received £73 from my contribution
Of £1000s over the years.
Now that I landed s job, and expect to be
Paid at the end of Febtuary, I am expected
To survive the month on fresh air?
I will get by alright as I earned a reasonable
Pay, but this is an outrage that some hard
Working people in minimum wage in these
Circumstances must ask for a Food Bank
Referral.
The Rich, politicians and the U.K. Media
Have all ganged up on the workers to fill
Their own troughs.
We must remove these vicious monsters
From their abusive positions of power.
It was never accepted wisdom that the Earth is flat, there was — at the time — good reason to think the sun moved round the Earth, and burning witches was not near as common as is assumed today. Other than that, right there with you, Rev.
Kezia Dud dale, New statesman Interview:
SNP stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories to vote for hundreds of millions of pounds worth of cuts
It will impose hundreds of millions of pounds of cuts
the damage hundreds of millions of pounds of cuts
imposing hundreds of millions of pounds of spending cuts
Do you get the fucking message?
We will fight Tory austerity plans by raising your fucking taxes.
Petra says:
10 February, 2016 at 1:16 pm
No so long ago everyone was sitting at home with a newspaper stuck under their nose. Now many of us are sitting with our noses stuck in the computer. Some even ‘nosying into Wings’ which IS changing opinion and has only been around for 4 years or so.
How things change, eh!
Aye you are so right!
When I was a wee lad, my parents had delivered or bought daily the Daily Record, the Express, the Glasgow Evening Times, and weekly the Sunday Mail, the Sunday Post, the Peoples Friend, the local wee paper and of course the Beano and the Dandy.
Today for my family its Samsung Chrome and the I-Scot mag.
The only poll that counts , is the one in the ballot box.
“Political parties exist to drive change, not to meekly reflect the current view of the electorate. They exist to fight for principles, and to give people who support those principles a voice.”
Gosh Rev, how uncharacteristically naive. Political parties exist in order to suppress plurality of opinion and to act as convenient vehicles for unprincipled rascals to organise the world according to their own best interests.
@Jim
“Kezia Dud dale” 🙂
Isn’t there a ‘K’ girl name storm due shortly?
The could name it after Kezia and hopefully it will be a Dud gale.
for someone so good at rebuttal, you do write some impressive think pieces.
Perhaps the next time Labour M.P.’s hold a wee meeting they should all read this from their esteemed Defence Secretary. 😉
https://twitter.com/YESthatcherDead/status/696398110575169537
@Charles McGregor says:
“Kezia Dud dale” 🙂
Isn’t there a ‘K’ girl name storm due shortly?
The could name it after Kezia and hopefully it will be a Dud gale.
____________
Cheers, nearly spat a mouthful of lemonade all over the monitor. lol
I think as time goes by, more and more people who voted ‘No’ in the referendum on the promise of Devo Max, will now be beginning to realise that their vote was conned from them.
Combined with the younger generation growing up and being more open to Independence, I do feel that as each day passes, Scotland becoming Independant looks more and more likely.
@Charles McGregor
It all shows just how important the question is.
The word ‘separate’ is a total killer.
I suspect the word ‘independent’ is coloured the same way for some.
It has 2 meanings – one in the political sense, and another as a noun – meaning separate or isolated.
Personally I would prefer to clarify it:
“Should Scotland govern itself as an independent country?”
or lose the word entirely:
“Should Scotland be a sovereign nation state?”
Chic,
I think that “k” that you have there should be attached to the end of Dugdale to create a nemesis for Dr Who’s dog K9
Excellent article, but having listened to the Lord Falconer on bbc radio 4 world at one this afternoon he was quite clear that the Labour Party policy is trident renewal. Mind you he is a bit shouty and I couldn’t make out the rest of his gaff awing, sorting something about God save the queen, and they don’t like it up them! But a big shout out to the fabulous SNP MP Stephen Gethins excellent performance, so good some wheezy old bampot sneered when he was speaking, don’t know who it was but I could smell his sence of his own self worth and entitlement from 350 miles away, probably a Tory in disguise as a new labour so called socialist, you Ken the type, ermine coat, with peculiar stains of unknown origin, smelling of cigars and a cheep parfumerie.
But your article reminds me of the saying by George Bernard Shaw “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
Our vision of Scotland is far superior to anything else that is on offer. And that’s a fact!
It’s amazing how many Scots don’t know Scotland has any money
The problem with asking people should the Scottish Parliament raise it’s own money through it’s own taxation system, is unfortunately there are still folk out there who will say
“Whit as well, Ye mean double tax, Naw Ahm no payin England tax and Scottish anaw”
They generally have longer arms skinned knuckles and the men are just as bad (boom boom)
There’s a section of society no matter how much you try to explain what most of us understand will always answer the same way irrespective of the question “Nuh” “Naw” or the more aggressive “Naw… Right!”
Unfortunately this Sub Species still persists despite natural selection and the much hoped for integration with other races
They set up their own meeting places where from a young age are taught the History of their Peepul and how it’s traditions of marrying and breeding within the chosen circle must be adhered to in order to continue their great Kultchur
More contact with this demographic is necessary in order for inroads to be found in the hope of altering perceptions of the rest of society, Safe approaches can usually be made by waving Union flags and baring ones teeth at the same time, this has a calming affect on most within this Sub group
More will be available in the extended version of my book on “Scotland and it’s Kultchur” if i can find anybody who’ll print it
I’d urge folk with a spare 5 minutes to read the article behind the blue link “every party stands for the same thing”.
It’s a piece from 9/6/12 called ‘The Wrong Lizards’ and it is quality!
It completely sums up the state of UK politics, it’s another great example of the rarity of Stu’s writing style/subjects, and has a pre-referendum hopefulness that you’ll all recognize!
Enjoy 😀
To think that most of us could have lived out the rest of our lives on a fairly banal level with no life changing moment and here we are on the cusp of something truely important.There is nothing more important than freedom to make your own choices and for a country to determine its own future based on true democracy,something sadly lacking under the present arrangement.
The 3 billion shortfall for Scotland with this Bill is roughly in line with the drop in oil revenue seen by the Treasury.
Is the the simplistic London goggles view just that England’s revenue must be preserved? They seem to be treating the oil as being Scottish and that Scotland should therefore compensate for the drop even though it was never Scotland’s oil or revenue before.
@Velofellow
“I think you deserve a title upgrade Rev.- Very Rev, or Prof Rev?”
In Scotland the usual ‘upgrade’ would be to Moderator, but I think he already owns that function too. 🙂
A bridge too far, and not entirely off topic as the question raised by the most Rev is the point of politics.
http://www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/14263524.Experts_say_Forth_Road_Bridge_closure_would_have_been_hard_to_predict/?ref=mr&lp=20
Peter Hill, general manager and bridgemaster with the Humber Bridge Board, said: “If we monitored every single element and joint, it is possible that a detailed analysis of the information from every point of the bridge could give some indication of some trouble in some part of the bridge, but that would be a huge exercise.
“The amount of data mining that would be necessary to give the information that would point us to a specific element causing distress would require a very large team of people looking at the results 24 hours a day. That might be possible but it is probably not practical or economically viable.”
Well obviously Mr Peter Hill was not briefed that its SNPBADDD over the border. I bet we get inundated with apologies from the opposition and their complacent media now!
Me at 1:41 pm
Becomes, in the event of a Leave EU vote …
Yes 58%
No 42%
Very interesting. It is worth considering that an extra 6% are willing to switch, period. That shows there are some very soft NOs out there.
@galamcennalath
Yes, saw the poll in the Herald.
It would be interesting to see a third question:
“If the UK votes to leave the EU, and if the Scottish Government promised to have its own in/out referendum 5 years after Scotland’s Independence, then would you vote for Independence?”
Wouldn’t surprise me if it went over 60% YES then. There’s a good few Indy supporters who really don’t like the EU, and there would be soft NOes as well – I’e seen them posting in forums.
Make that “stay/leave”, the in/out implies we wouldn’t be in, but it’d ahve to be reworded anyway.
God, so many spies in the SNP they should form their own branch!
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/us-diplomat-s-report-reveals-snp-believed-dundee-was-ungovernable-in-the-1970s-1.923528
galamcennalath@3.50
ipsos Opinion Poll.
52% YES is a great result.
Remember eighteen months before the referendum we were struggling along on 26%. We have doubled the Yes camp..
Everything is going well
During the “Cold War” when East Germany still existed, West newspapers were banned but most East Germans could still receive radio/television signals (Analogue in those days) and so watch West TV even though it was forbidden.
In South East Germany however by Saxony – Dresden, Cottbus, Bautzen etc. they couldn’t get any signal, it was too far away. So they were stuck with the SED Regime’s newspapers, TV, Radio Pravda propaganda etc.
The East Germans called that area the “Tal der Ahnungslosen” – the “Valley of the Clueless/unwitting/innocents”.
This situation reminds me in some ways of Scotland today.
Half of the population lives in a modern, outward looking, progressive and self-confident world. Eager to build its own future.
The other half still lives in and hangs on to a repressive, propaganda regime with it’s own regime TV, newspapers, bureaucrats.
Hanging on to a past world with no future.
In the middle of Scotland is a “Valley of the Clueless/unwitting/innocents”
SNP should get a grip, Labour fightback is now well under way and starting to make inroads into the solid ‘ProudScotbut’ vote 🙂
Aw ye have to enjoy it people; think back to the recent times of red rosettes on a monkey etc ..
Changed days indeed for the sellouts
Herald http://archive.is/yCynM
“Cameron tells Sturgeon: stop grievance agenda and do a deal on new tax powers”
and
“He explained it was quite right that there should be no financial detriment to Scotland when the transfer of the new powers was made ”
… implying to me, that detriment after transfer can be expected. Which is after all what the Tories what to do with Scottish finances.
Well, if that’s Cameron’s response to Sturgeon’s statement and letter yesterday, we can probably assume the whole thing is already in the long grass!
Speaking of the Guardian. Sev is losing the plot in this particular article. Going crazy with the mod hammer 🙂
article
Full scale rebellion BTL is imminent. 🙂
Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.
Groucho Marx
“I think you deserve a title upgrade Rev.- Very Rev, or Prof Rev?”
How about the “Right Rev” because that’s what he usually is… 😉
A lot of newspapers like to interpret polls their own way by taking figures from questions not asked to fit their partisan narrative.
Good poll figures today for the SNP by Ipsos-Mori 6 weeks before the dissolution of the Holyrood Parliament.
I agree with Ian @ 3.15. We are on the edge of momentous change for Scotland. We have come so far,our eyes have been opened to the lies of Westminster and the b.u.m. The dawn of independence is coming, something I only dreamed about. One or two last heaves and we will be there. With hard work and the yoons still sticking to their tried and tested methods, we will win.
Andrew McLean
As someone around in Dundee East during the 74-79 period that report is a bit off the mark. No local candidates were put up as we wanted to spend our meagre financial resources for the forthcoming general election whenever that may be and not that many people wanted to be councillors at that time. As Labour slipped into a minority government in that period there was always a chance of a general election being called and we wanted to have some money to fight off Labour’s challange.
With hindsight if we had fought the 1977 District elections we may have gained seats but we will never know. When in the start of 1978 we did decide to put up candidates for the Regional election the SNP had started to slip in the polls and despite a good showing in several wards we did not know it then but the tide had turned against us. We did not spend much money on the 1978 Regional elections and that was a wise decision as we needed monies to fight the General Election that we had expected in the Autumn of 1978. That came in May 1979 and we held the seat whilst other SNP were defeated.
Amongst our extended group of friends and families, me and my mates identified 10 soft NOs after the referendum and resolved to work on them drip-by-drip.
We met up last night and reckoned we had moved 3 to YES, 5 now undecided/neutral/apathetic and 2 unfortunately sticking even more stubbornly to NO.
However, we believe this is the way forward ….
Sturgeon should tell Cameron to stop his right-wing “grievance agenda” with the EU.
Grievance? Vow broken!! We’ll show yae grievance, laddie:
SNP x 2 = IndyRef 2
@galamcennalath
First comment on that article: “David Cameron wiped the floor with Angus Robertson today”
Even if that were true, it would make a change from the Scottish Labour MPs wiping the floor with themselves.
Poll finds majority of Scots would back independence if UK exits EU:
https://archive.is/woo0U
spot on and well said Rev
“Mundell has called on First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to campaign with him to keep Britain in the EU”
No one in the SNP should have anything to do with other campaigns, or other parties. They should not appear on stage at public meetings with any other parties.
Look at the shit that has been dumped on SLab for standing side by side with Tories, or worse.
The SNP are big and powerful enough to run their own campaign in Scotland.
Just catching up on the posts, Charles McGregor, Broch Landers and Effigy.
Three great posts on the trot and all for different reasons.
I love Wings and those that post and read here. Ta.
If you can be bothered this is all MPs interests.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/160208/160208.pdf
you can bet your bottom dollar that the so called journalists will be distilling this into SNP bad for tomorrow mornings papers!
this is better to pick and mix
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/160208/contents.htm
@galamcennalath
Somebody should point out to Fluffy that it is his party that is having the in-out referendum!!!!
Proud Cybernat says:
“Grievance? Vow broken!! We’ll show yae grievance, laddie”
yesindyref2 says:
“First comment on that article: “David Cameron wiped the floor with Angus Robertson today” ”
Cameron doesn’t quite seem to appreciate how things are developing. He is rapidly running out of time to deliver on his Vow.
It’s as if he has no idea that the clock is going to be wound back three years, but with huge differences – Indy support has doubled, Labour is a shambles, Tories are in for years, and a Hell of a lot of Scots are not in the mood to play silly buggers much longer.
Perhaps he’s getting poor advice from his guys on the ground here. 🙂
An interesting article Rev! I totally agree with much of what you say – but disagree with some of the conclusions.
To form a government, a party has to be elected (or maybe get in on some coalition ticket). For a party to implement its manifesto – it needs to be in government. Is it better to be in government with some watered down principles in some policy areas – but strongly influence the “direction of travel” overall – rather than be unable to influence policy implementation on anything – by being in permanent opposition?
Scottish politics are far more complicated than left or right because the subject of Independence crosses party lines. There are people that might want Independence – but would loathe, by their assessment a leftie SNP government in Scotland unhindered by Westminster. Similarly there will be left wingers that don’t want Independence so will not vote SNP even though they may prefer the rest of the SNP political agenda.
As has been discussed here many times, the “centre” is further right in England than Scotland. If we accept the oft used spectrum, then UKIP and the Tories polled over 55% in England. The average voter in England doesn’t consider themselves to be “right wing” – they consider themselves to be centrists and everyone else to be loony lefties, if you get my drift.
The Labour party in England is sleep walking to electoral disaster over things like Trident. Regardless of the arguments, factually, the majority of people in England instinctively want to keep a nuclear deterrent. To go into an election in England , on a unilateral disarmament ticket may be principled – but futile. The result will be that Labour wont get elected and electorate will get to keep Trident – and receive the rest of the Tory manifesto at the same time.
It may be, though I doubt it, that a “scrap Trident” policy for Labour in Scotland might yield some electoral benefit – but not in England – and there’s the rub. The Labour MPs in Westminster cannot put themselves up for re-election with a “scrap Trident” policy in the Manifesto. They would be slaughtered. Highly principled, but completely irrelevant.
@William Wallace
Hadn’t noticed yet. The other week the Graun was deleting comments related to Spannergate as fast as they could go. It was amusing in a King Canute sort of way. I can see references to Spanner being a regular feature in CiF in the Scottish sections of the Graun.
O/T
Yet another JKR/Potter story all over the MSM today.
Isn’t it a funny coincidence that we have been deluged with JKR/Potter stories nearly every day since the initial hooha over Spannergate.
She and/or her handlers are well up to Baroness Mone standards when it comes to manipulating the media.
Maybe she has been taking lessons from our recently laughingly ennobled alleged bra tycoon.
I wonder how the so called Bwit twit centre ground would shift if the Southern English Tories had to suffer them on their back lawns and rose gardens?
I think the get rid of them % would have an easy majority. I wonder what the % would be if the question was rephrased “Should Trident be relocated to the Sarf of Ingerland?”
Apparently some auld yoon has called out Alex Salmond live on air.
I wonder what the Daily Mail will make of it…
@Iain More
Trident. As the Rev points out, yes, it does depend on the way a question is worded.
I have often wondered if Trident2 was planned to be housed near Portsmouth (say) within 100 miles of almost half of the population, how would opinion in England change?
Saying ‘we want it, as long as it’s 100s of miles north’ is one thing. Saying ‘we want it in our back yard’ is quite different.
And that, hopefully, is something they will need to consider sooner than they realise.
It has been announced on STV by IPSOS/Mori that 62% of Scots want to stay in EU, and if UK leaves more or less the same Scots, 60% would vote to leave the UK. Interesting? And the SNP will will a landslide in May. 53% Constituency. Regional List 49%. It gives the SNP 74 seats.
Stephen Roney.
WOW …. ‘top of the bill’ …. STV News at 6pm.
Ipsos Mori poll carried out by STV shows that if RUK pulls out out of Europe but Scotland votes to stay 58% of Scots will support Independence.
@William Wallace
I now see the Graun appears to be deleting links to and posts about the latest polling figures. Poor Sev, must be frustrating for him not having a monopoly on what can and cannot be written.
Trident is now an interesting topic, back in 2012 which is not so long ago I really didn’t give a monkeys about whether Trident stayed or went.
I was much more concerned about employment and welfare, in other words I was ignorant that all these topics were and are intertwined!
Now I am very clear in my position, I want shot of Trident. I want the £167 billion to be spent over the next 40 years on my main concerns. Most importantly I want a government that will invest in manufacturing, production and construction.
We need new affordable homes, we need new well paid industrial jobs such as in shipbuilding and steel, we need modern manufacturing facilities building the likes of wind turbines and not just the supports for the turbines.
Most turbines are imported, the most expensive parts manufactured by the likes of Siemens in Germany or Denmark.
Do you want good jobs for our school leavers and graduates?
Then we must provide the places for them to work, the places for them to prosper, various governments have fucked up too often in the last 30 or so years. We can do better, so much better but it needs a government with exactly these goals in charge. Our children deserve a future, too many despair and I understand why. Not good enough!
Things can be changed, all that’s needed is imagination and a wee bit bottle. Let’s make that change.
Independence is the future for Scotland. If Scotland wants a future.
Well said, Thepnr.
OT
Sheesh, talk about spin and doom and gloom from those obsesssed with Salmond and the Indy campaign, rather than wanting the best for Scotland which they flaming well should do, the latest article with new official figures says this in the Herald:
“ The figures kept Scotland’s gross domestic product per head – the main measure of a nation’s wealth – 1 per cent below that of the rest of the UK.
GDP per head in Scotland was equivalent to £28,500 compared with £28,700 across the UK as a whole. ”
What it actually shows is that with practucally zero revenue, and in spite of job losses, closures and a big slowdon in the oil sector affecting onshore revenues for Scotland, Scotland’s GDP is still at 99% of that of the UK.
From that it’s clear that if the oil sector in Scotland hadn’t existed and Scotland had had that 99% FDP figure before the Ref, it would now be well above 100%, a quick and dirty guess would say 104%.
In other words, taking out the oil sector completely, the rest of Scotland’s onshore GDP has grown around 5%.
Very quick and dirty figures off the top of my head!
STV … https://archive.is/bd6aP
While the report is factually correct, I find the undertones irritating. Two examples being ..
“Across the nation as a whole, 55% of Britons will vote to stay”
So in a Scottish TV report, the nation is defined as UK. Non partisan wording could have been “Across the UK”.
“Scots continue to hold contrasting attitudes towards London and Brussels. While a clear majority wish to pool sovereignty with the latter, most want to secede from the UK.”
So, it’s secession with the UK but pooling sovereignty with EU. The language of BT has become engrained.
@ Broch Landers says at 2:02 pm …….”But now there is hope, comrades. In a bid for independence, exploiting their marginal position, the Scottish revolutionaries have been hard at work digging digital tunnels and jumping electoral fences. Lately the rabid attack dogs of Centreground have been roused, and on them like a shot……”
Great post Broch … SO many talented people on here.
…………………….
@ Lesley-Anne says at 2:24 pm …. ”Perhaps the next time Labour M.P.’s hold a wee meeting they should all read this from their esteemed Defence Secretary. ?”
https://twitter.com/YESthatcherDead/status/696398110575169537
A ‘Trident’ blog from Craig Murray: ‘Anguish as North Korea Marches Into 1955’
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/02/anguish-as-north-korea-marches-into-1955/
…………………….
@ Effijy says at 2:06 pm …… ”I was made redundant last year but paid up to the last day of the year. I reported to the DSS on their first day back after the holidays, only to be sent away, as it is now your own responsibility to fill in your Job Seekers claim on line?…….”
Effijy I can really sympathise with you. The whole set up is an absolute nightmare.
I’ve been supporting a number of people who are on Zero Hour Contracts. In MANY cases the DWP isn’t telling people that they can claim for contribution based JSA (been working recently / no need to include partners wage) rather they mention income based JSA only (means tested / includes partners wage).
If an applicant finds out that they can claim contribution based JSA they are then told as you say to fill in the form online, however when you try to do so it relates to income based JSA only (wanting to know every aspect of your business).
What I’ve found then is that if you phone the DWP to inform them of this they are adamant that you can do so. I’ve actually known them to slam the phone down on people mid sentence and so on.
Some have gone on to get help at the local DWP office by showing them on THEIR computers that they CAN’T claim CB JSA online. Many applicants have just given up and don’t claim JSA at all … hence the skewed figures.
Now these people on ZHCs can work one, two days a week (or RARELY up to 5/6 of course) or none at all which means that they have to phone the DWP EVERY time that they are eligible for JSA (could be every week) however they often find that by the time they have been given a DWP appointment they have been offered another days work which coincides with their appointment. The amount of phoning, explaining and so on is absolutely horrendous. Not only that they have to prove that for every day that they haven’t worked (Monday to Sunday), in between working a day here and there, they have been applying for jobs … have to log all jobs applied for. If not it’s on their record and they are penalised / sanctioned at the first opportunity.
Then as you say they lose so many days for a first claim then if they work for a few weeks and reapply they lose so many days again to the point that some of them don’t get any money at all until the second week of being unemployed. I should mention too that if your wage for one days work is more than JSA (£73.10) there’s no point in applying for JSA at all. In other words some of the poorest working people in the country (on ZHCs) could be earning as little as £3800 a year.
Compare that to people like Jim Murphy who had been claiming the maximum food allowance of £4000 a year (without having to provide receipts).
It’s totally SHAMBOLIC … an utter DISGRACE …. and no doubt accounts for so many people dying of malnutrition / hypothermia / stress related illness / suicide.
The DWP’s comrade in arms is HMRC. Many people who have been claiming JSA are being hit with tax bills of £1000 plus when they don’t owe one penny. They have to phone HMRC constantly in an attempt to resolve the situation … sitting holding the phone for up to 45 minutes (and longer) at a time. They are then told that THEY will have to get proof from the DWP. More phone calls to the DWP … passed from one person to another … stalling and so on. Meanwhile the phone bill is going through the roof. Then you have to send the data to HMRC and are informed that they are running 3 months behind. In a number of cases that were resolved last year (took months to do so) the JSA individuals were told that the problem lies with them (HMRC) ‘estimating’ how much they THINK they may owe.
Absolutely hellish especially when we know now that Westminster plan to slash the Employability (back to work) fund by 80%. An area that is being devolved to Scotland, surprise, surprise.
Then there is the bullying issue … another long story.
Slab has happily let ALL of this happen due to ensuring that as little as possible was devolved to Scotland.
Party of the working man (woman, unemployed, on ZHC) my backside. They should be hanging their heads in shame.
@ Broch Landers says at 2:02 pm …….”But now there is hope, comrades. In a bid for independence, exploiting their marginal position, the Scottish revolutionaries have been hard at work digging digital tunnels and jumping electoral fences. Lately the rabid attack dogs of Centreground have been roused, and on them like a shot……”
Great post Broch … SO many talented people on here.
…………………….
@ Lesley-Anne says at 2:24 pm …. ”Perhaps the next time Labour M.P.’s hold a wee meeting they should all read this from their esteemed Defence Secretary. ?”
https://twitter.com/YESthatcherDead/status/696398110575169537
A ‘Trident’ blog from Craig Murray: ‘Anguish as North Korea Marches Into 1955’
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/02/anguish-as-north-korea-marches-into-1955/
…………………….
@ Effijy says at 2:06 pm …… ”I was made redundant last year but paid up to the last day of the year. I reported to the DSS on their first day back after the holidays, only to be sent away, as it is now your own responsibility to fill in your Job Seekers claim on line?…….”
Effijy I can really sympathise with you. The whole set up is an absolute nightmare.
I’ve been supporting a number of people who are on Zero Hour Contracts. In MANY cases the DWP isn’t telling people that they can claim for contribution based JSA (been working recently / no need to include partners wage) rather they mention income based JSA only (means tested / includes partners wage).
If an applicant finds out that they can claim contribution based JSA they are then told as you say to fill in the form online, however when you try to do so it relates to income based JSA only (wanting to know every aspect of your business).
What I’ve found then is that if you phone the DWP to inform them of this they are adamant that you can do so. I’ve actually known them to slam the phone down on people mid sentence and so on.
Some have gone on to get help at the local DWP office by showing them on THEIR computers that they CAN’T claim CB JSA online. Many applicants have just given up and don’t claim JSA at all … hence the skewed figures.
Now these people on ZHCs can work one, two days a week (or RARELY up to 5/6 of course) or none at all which means that they have to phone the DWP EVERY time that they are eligible for JSA (could be every week) however they often find that by the time they have been given a DWP appointment they have been offered another days work which coincides with their appointment. The amount of phoning, explaining and so on is absolutely horrendous. Not only that they have to prove that for every day that they haven’t worked (Monday to Sunday), in between working a day here and there, they have been applying for jobs … have to log all jobs applied for. If not it’s on their record and they are penalised / sanctioned at the first opportunity.
Then as you say they lose so many days for a first claim then if they work for a few weeks and reapply they lose so many days again to the point that some of them don’t get any money at all until the second week of being unemployed. I should mention too that if your wage for one days work is more than JSA (£73.10) there’s no point in applying for JSA at all. In other words some of the poorest working people in the country (on ZHCs) could be earning as little as £3800 a year.
Compare that to people like Jim Murphy who had been claiming the maximum food allowance of £4000 a year (without having to provide receipts).
It’s totally SHAMBOLIC … an utter DISGRACE …. and no doubt accounts for so many people dying of malnutrition / hypothermia / stress related illness / suicide.
The DWP’s comrade in arms is HMRC. Many people who have been claiming JSA are being hit with tax bills of £1000 plus when they don’t owe one penny. They have to phone HMRC constantly in an attempt to resolve the situation … sitting holding the phone for up to 45 minutes (and longer) at a time. They are then told that THEY will have to get proof from the DWP. More phone calls to the DWP … passed from one person to another … stalling and so on. Meanwhile the phone bill is going through the roof. Then you have to send the data to HMRC and are informed that they are running 3 months behind. In a number of cases that were resolved last year (took months to do so) the JSA individuals were told that the problem lies with them (HMRC) ‘estimating’ how much they THINK they may owe.
Absolutely hellish especially when we know now that Westminster plan to slash the Employability (back to work) fund by 80%. An area that is being devolved to Scotland, surprise, surprise.
Then there is the bullying issue … another long story.
Slab has happily let ALL of this happen due to ensuring that as little as possible was devolved to Scotland.
Party of the working man (woman, unemployed, on ZHC) my backside. They should be hanging their heads in shame.
@galamcennalath
Yes, “secede” is the language of the UK Government to support its claim of being the “Continuing” UK.
STV should think carefully that in post-YES negotiations that claimed status is of immense importance to Scotland and worth up to £100 billion or even more, in terms of assets and debts.
STV might want to think whether, in that case, their loyalty would be to Scotland or the rUK. And send themselves home to think again.
@Thepnr
“Now I am very clear in my position, I want shot of Trident. I want the £167 billion to be spent over the next 40 years on my main concerns. Most importantly I want a government that will invest in manufacturing, production and construction”
Completely agree. And we need, this time, to be more informing in regard to just how precarious the UK economy is.
Massive food and drink net importer, net energy importer, a once massive manufacturing sector dwindled away to virtually nothing and nothing being done about it.
See a couple of recent charts here for manufacturing as a %age of GDP and Manufacturing investment:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/WeDontBashMetal.jpg
Cameron has zero chance of getting any significant concessions, a lot of the EU states must be wondering if it is time for their indolent lodger to go and take theie spivvery with them.
When scotland is independent England can have trident and it could be housed in the Thames right outside the English Parlia.
We can then drill for oil in the clyde basin (plenty there) and build a fleet to protect our fisheries and coast line.
It was a fishing boat that warned of the presence of a russian submarine off the west coast – we have nothing protecting our fishing waters.
Sorry, I pulled %age GVA for manufacturing but same message.
As has been discussed here many times, the “centre” is further right in England than Scotland.
You mean England votes Tory and Scotland doesn’t sensibledave. During the ref campaign, one of red tory taunts/pleads with Scots was, youre all so selfish and stupid, stand BetterTogether in UKOK solidarity with your English working class brothers and sisters, who consistently vote tory, red or blue, but forget that UKOK reality, up the UKOK workers, UKOK workers know no borders etc.
Its still raises hackles. What the ruling tory yoons of teamGB could do is create more tory voters in Scotland, by pumping same billions that they invest in England, into Scotland. But that’s way too much change for Scotland’s red and blue tory imperial masters, blue ones currently rigging vote NO for the VOW shyste into a fiscal frame designed to fcuk the Scottish economy and bring down SNP Scots.gov.
Bish bosh job done, rule Britannia in her Scotland region.
Such is UKOK solidarity sensibledave.
As my Slovene girlfriend keeps saying over and over
“Isn’t it time for the Scottish Government to stop playing games with devolution, to stop their stunts, and to show some respect to what, after all, is the settled will of the Scottish people?”
https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/author/conlawforum/
Apologies the ‘double’ posting folks! Maybe Stu could remove one?
@ galamcennalath says at 6:50 pm …. STV … https://archive.is/bd6aP
Thanks for that link galamcennalath.
I see that they also polled on income tax and it doesn’t look good for Labour with at least 64% of people disagreeing with her. Seems that Kezia has got it wrong AGAIN. SLab should actually think about asking the Scots how they feel about any given issue or carry out polling rather than just keep plucking policies out of thin air.
”The poll also calls into question assumptions about Scotland’s attachment to social democratic principles.
Asked their preferred policy on income tax, 54% said they wanted it to remain at the current level while a further 10% wish to see it cut by 1p in the pound.
Less than a third (30%) support raising the levy by 1p and a further 7% said they did not know.
The results suggest Scottish Labour’s proposal to hike income tax by 1p to offset Scottish Government cuts to council budgets will struggle to gain traction with the electorate.”
I am guessing the people who own MSM are now getting into a panic. Politicians and people starting to think for themselves just isn’t cricket. Bernie Sanders in USA gives a glimmer of hope and latest Indy polls do to. Some people just won’t be happy about that. How do we get everyone back in line? they must be asking themselves.
Desperate times require des….I know!
War with Russia anyone?!!!
Petra says:
“Scotland’s attachment to social democratic principles”
I saw a poll somewhere in the last week where the question about increased income tax was asked in two different ways.
‘to improve services’ got more than 50%
‘to mitigate Tory austerity’ got a lot less than 50%
Wish I could find it again.
I have no objections to paying more tax, ‘to improve services’, but only after corporate & offshore tax dodgers have been hounded, illegal wars stopped, Royals made ordinary citizens, and WMDs scrapped.
In his 1953 publication, “The Impact of Science on Society”, Bertrand Russell suggested it was a moral responsibility of government, to constrain public expectations through the expedient use of propaganda.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Impact-Science-Society-Bertrand-Russell/dp/041510906X
Incidentally, Bertrand Russell’s godfather was none other than John Stuart Mill. Funny that?
Since it doesn’t look like Cameron will respect the May elections by running his EU Referenum over the top of them.
Nicola should return the compliment and call a Scottish Independence 2 on the same date as the EU vote.
Cats and pigeons comes to mind.
O/T
ON NOW
@liveIndyScot
Livesteaming Debate with Jeanne Freeman, Patrick Harvie, Lesley Riddoch & Gordon McIntyre-Kemp
http://tinyurl.com/jqdfp7c
If they can keep the stream up that is.. 🙁
Nuada says:
10 February, 2016 at 2:10 pm
You say..
It was never accepted wisdom that the Earth is flat, there was — at the time — good reason to think the sun moved round the Earth, and burning witches was not near as common as is assumed today.
You say Rev is wrong.. Maybe..
I’d say you underestimate any aggressive controlling power’s ability to ostracise whole cultures!
‘Accepted’ wisdom, which you pick up on, is shaped by established wisdom. Sure there were spectacular bucks to the trends, often ending in power struggles and insurrections.
And I’d add that witch burning merely replaced other ancient types of forced self sacrifice. Pagan interests were/are often reignited.
Wasn’t much call during the dark ages, as it needs a complicit ruling class to run a country through fear..
.and they feared God, unlike later Medieval monarchs holy bloodlusts. Or modern politicians who fear only material notions.
Humanity (now intelligent and connected) has sunk to an all time low, failing to create REAL DEMOCRACY (for those who express a preference) AND RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE (same goes)
and allowing ourselves to be fooled.
With regard to David Cameron’s reply to Nicola Sturgeon, he is effectively saying, yeah we’re happy to give you a pair of armbands filled with concrete, now let see how well you swim.
Does he really think Nicola Sturgeon, John Swinney and the Scottish public are so stupid as to not see what is is trying to do.
The man is a first class buffoon of the highest order.
A good article, cause for lots of thought.
Dippydave is here posting his customary waffle sounding more like Hothersal each time he appears, so I’ll leave this diversion while I complete other work:
https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2016/02/10/goodbye-landie/
@One_Scot
Not only are the armbands filled with concrete but he wants to chain them to the Scottish governments ankles.
I’m in a sweary mood so I hope the SG tell him politely to shove it. Managed to resist what I really think.
David Cameron is many things, but a buffoon of the highest order is not one of them. It’s easy to label him a buffoon, but his job is not to fool or convince the Scottish People of anything His job is to appeal to the Tory base, and that’s not in Scotland.
As Chuck D of Public Enemy says, don’t watch the puppet, keep your eye on the puppet master. David Cameron has a lot of people advising him. Whatever he says, in speech or print, you can bet a team of people had a hand in the creation of.
He’s a shit heel, a wanker, a snob, a man who knows only the silver spoon…he is many things, but he’s not a buffoon.
Talk about grievance politics, Cameron has some neck.
Every time Corbyn asks him a question he blames the mess he inherited!
Help, get me outta this nuthouse.
Tommy Sheppard’s point of order;
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to raise a query about how we select ministerial questions in the post-English votes for English laws situation. Earlier today, we had Scottish questions. Some 45 Scottish Members submitted a question; three were chosen, which makes a success rate of 6%. Some 48 non-Scottish Members submitted a question; 12 were chosen, which makes a success rate of 25%. I appreciate that the randomness of the selection process can create these situations, but it is a matter of concern that Scottish Members had only a one-in-four chance of questioning the Scottish Secretary, as compared with other Members of the House. I ask you ever so gently, as part of the review into EVEL, to consider whether it might be appropriate, for those Departments with a specific territorial responsibility, to put in place some mechanism to allow the Members representing those areas a better chance of holding Ministers to account.”
The speaker replies;
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The short answer to the thrust of his question is that the selection is done by electronic ballot. It is done that way for questions to the Secretary of State for Scotland and for every other Question Time. I am happy to consider his request for consideration of an alternative method, but I hope he will bear in mind the likelihood that there will exist opinions other than and different from his own.”
Woah, whit?
Just two stories we don’t see or hear about on msm.
Deported to warzones: Home Office admits sending back thousands of child refugees
Britain has returned more than 2,700 young asylum seekers to war-torn countries in the Middle East over the past nine years – double the number originally claimed by the government.
British MPs get extra £1,000… their 2nd pay rise in a year
MPs are set to receive a salary boost of almost £1,000 after the independent parliamentary pay watchdog recommended another rise – the second in one year.
O/T
Just seen the panel line up for tomorrow night’s Question Time.
Stephen Crabb ……. Conservative
Carwyn Jones …….. Labour
Leanne Wood ……… Plaid Cymru
Nigel Farage …….. UKIP
Romesh Ranganathan .. comedian
As has been said on Twitter … is it not rather interesting that UKIP, having only ONE M.P., has a representative on BBCQT TWO weeks on the trot. 😉
Lovely jubbly!
Just had a look at oor Kevin’s latest blog about how no detriment should work, and it has his usual standard of selective quoting, which I’ve very very kindly archived for him on web archive, just in case of course he wants to refer back. I’m a very kind and helpful person.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160210201841/http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/barnett-fair.html
He quotes Smith Report 95 (3) without quoting 95 (3) (a) where it mentions “… and that future growth in the reduction to the block grant should be indexed appropriately”.
Why didn’t I predict that? Oh, I did. Yesterday.
A general question by the way, should I point things like this out at the time, or keep them up my sleeve for “the right time” for maximum impact, whenever that is?
While STV highlighted the Mori poll showing majority of Scots would vote Indy in event of Brexit….guess what good old ‘Misreporting Scotland’ led with?
Apparently the rise of ‘new football casual violence’ in Scottish football. This ludicrous claim based on a few scuffles by half wits was backed up (not) but 10-15 year old cctv of hibs/hearts scrappers circa 1999…but without telling you so.
Despite an ex main man of the Hibees thugs of that area and a leading cop disparaging this ‘new phenomenon’..Jackie et al plowed on.
Only marginally worse was the insulting item about Cameron laying down a challenge to the SNP to ‘get on with it’ re the Scotland bill…complete with clip of said pigfucker and toodleloothenoo Brian Taylor reading out an ‘exclusive letter from said porcine porker re-emphasing this . No SNP response was apparently available.
The unremitting propaganda continues. Right after it there was a tory political broadcast…it was hard to know when one toryprop programme ended and another one began.
If Kevin Bridges is right and God left us an empty what would happen if he came back now or if Inter Galactic Peace Keeping Aliens arrived
What countries do we think God or the Aliens would be giving a doing to
The countries with the Sand and Pop guns or the countries who are continuously at war with everybody and sometimes all at the same time but keep impressing on us they’re fighting for peace
I can’t remember a time when “The West” wasn’t bombing somebody for peace
I’m starting to doubt their motives you know (sarcasm)
@Lochside
Puke!
Thought I would get used to their crap but it’s hard. Never mind Dave will be spewing down the front of his Saville Row suit soon, hope I’m there to witness this.
FairFerfochen says 8:03pm
You gave the long version. What Mr Bercow ment was “ENGERLAND RULE now F*** OFF thick Jockos”
Thanks Petra,
Westminster really do take us for mugs.
They want to take and give nothing in return to the workers.
How I’d like to take my 45 years of contributions back and return
that £73.
Even better I’d love to tell them that they don’t qualify for any
of my tax as they haven’t filled any of my online forms in the correct timescale.
They shouldn’t get any of my Taxes for the first 7 days, from when they fill in my online form, and of course they get nothing for the first month.
I’ll expect a report every day to show how well they are spending my tax, or I stop it Dead.
If they are still taking my Tax after 6 months, they then get nothing after that.
Now that seems fairer, to treat them as they treat us, but they seem to have missed the point that we are talking about the money I have earned, and the national “Insurance” I paid.
Totally devoid of a Fair and Just Society thanks to these Badder Together Unionists.
O/T
@ ahundredthidiot says at 7:23 pm …. I am guessing the people who own MSM are now getting into a panic. Politicians and people starting to think for themselves just isn’t cricket. Bernie Sanders in USA gives a glimmer of hope and latest Indy polls do to. Some people just won’t be happy about that. How do we get everyone back in line? they must be asking themselves. Desperate times require des….I know! War with Russia anyone?!!!”
Ahundredthidiot how I’m keeping EVERYTHING crossed for Bernie Sanders to win.
He’s the US’s … Worlds … ‘best bet’ imo (consider Clinton and worse still Trump) due to fighting for the poor, elderly and disabled and pointing out with disgust that ‘’the creation of oligarchies around the world has led to the richest 1% now owning 50% of the world’s wealth with the top 0.1% of Americans having the same wealth as the bottom 90%.’’
The corporate media are right behind Trump and absolutely detest Sanders (you can see why), are doing their utmost to blank him and of course are spreading their lies and smears.
(US media stronger than ever as media ownership has gone from 50 major media companies owning 90% of all US media outlets in the 1980s to only 6 major media companies owning 90% of all U.S media in 2015.)
Bernie Sanders (Democrat) has consistently drawn the largest and most enthusiastic crowds of any candidate, often outdoing Donald the Trumpeter and Clinton, but this fact is SELDOM mentioned on US corporate media (or even here in the UK surprise, surprise). Instead there is mostly a news blackout on Sanders – making his comments about a rigged system (where have we heard that one before?) even more of a reality: And like us making the Internet absolutely crucial for his success.
The Tyndall Report has highlighted that ”Trump gets more television network coverage than the entire field of Democratic candidates, with 234 minutes of air time in 2015 compared to 226 minutes for the entire Democratic field.”
On the other-hand Bernie Sanders was covered for 10 minutes of that time. On ABC News he was covered for 30 SECONDS compared to Trump’s 81 minutes. How utterly blatant is that? Even Vice President Joe Biden, who never entered the race and finally decided not to run got far more coverage, with 56 minutes on all major networks throughout 2015.
Bernie’s really up against it (as we are) but as you say ahundredthidiot ”people are starting to think for themselves” here and in the US and the corrupt, corporate media don’t like it one bit. Boo bl**dy hoo!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/07/donald-trump-has-gotten-more-nightly-network-news-coverage-than-the-entire-democratic-field-combined/
‘Socialist tactics and the Bernie Sanders campaign.’
http://www.liberationnews.org/socialist-tactics-bernie-sanders-campaign/
Bernie Sanders: ‘Laughing All The Way Through The Media Black Out’
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-morton/bernie-sanders-laughing-a_b_7969754.html
@Yesindyref2
Keep em up your sleeve dads.
The clock is ticking down. 🙂
@Macart
Yes, will do. I’ve got a few total basic errors about that blog on the subject of [redacted] which will wait until [redacted] is on the go. For that one I should have just contacted or emailed Rev. Ah well, I posted the detail of the thing anyway elsewhere before the latest blog.
@ Petra
You describe an absolute nightmarish world of Zero Hours Contracts, unemployment, benefit withheld, and sanctions.
Kafka’s world was more sane and rational.
Those of us fortunate enough to be able to avoid DWP persecution need to be made aware of this. Thanks for describing it so vividly.
@Yesindyref
‘Redacted’ Love it! 😀
Things are coming to a steady simmer just nicely right now and as I posted earlier a perfect storm of opportunity is brewing this year. The slow, but steady, growth of the yes vote is most definitely encouraging. It speaks of permanence in the change of view, people who have taken their time to come to a new POV.
Another two or three percentage points over the next year should bring things to the boil. 🙂
@galamcennalath says: 10 February, 2016 at 11:33 am:
“At WM the view of what the majority want is always (in living memory) skewed by the totally undemocratic first past the post system.”
The Establishment in London has been at this for millennia. It is their stock in trade.
Just take the Treaty of Union as a prime example. From 1603 they were pushing the propaganda that the only two remaining kingdoms in the British Isles were united.
To this very day all four United Kingdom countries teach their children that the date 1603 was, “The Union of the Crowns”. Yet both kingdoms remained independent, with their own parliaments. The truth is that both, still independent, crowns were worn independently upon the same person’s head.
Then they drew up a Treaty of Union and actually forced it upon Scotland with military might, bribery and blackmail. Not to mention the contrived Darien Expedition that bankrupted, not Scotland, but only the Scottish landowners who were also the parliamentarians.
The wording of the Treaty clearly shows that both kingdoms were still independent, in spite of the propaganda that there was a Union of the Crowns in 1603. So why bother uniting them with a treaty that clearly shows both were still equally sovereign kingdoms? Yet, in 1745, Cumberland was murdering innocent civilians, including babes in arms, after the Battle of Culloden.
So the Treaty that was supposed to unite two equally sovereign kingdoms ends up today with the Kingdom of England countries with 533 English MPs, 40 Welsh MPs and 18 N.I. MPs. (That’s 591 MPs from the former Kingdom of England and only 59 MPs from the former Kingdom of Scotland), and the Secretary of State of Scotland, David Mundell, tells Scots this:-
So there you have it 591 Kingdom of England MPs are telling 69,(minus three), Kingdom of Scotland MPs they are not equally sovereign and that the Westminster Establishment has introduced EVEL just to make that abundantly clear.
There’s nothing new in the evil propaganda that has always flowed out of the South of Britain for at least the last couple of thousand years.
@Papadox,
Having just read Scotland day on Hansard followed by PMQ’s, followed by Tommy’s PofO it leaves me wondering “what’s the point in politics?”.
The SNP must have the patience of saints, I know I couldn’t do it.
Hi Alastair.
You typed,
“Cats and pigeons comes to mind.”
Reminded me of this:-
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/hamishpigeons.jpg
@Macart
It’s happening.
I can’t wait. All these years.
Great article.
It’s a bit like scientists who talk about the zero post field – the invisible field that is supposed to connect everything.
In politics we have the neo-liberal underworld which up until now has been the controlling influence on both sides of our traditional political system and media.
There’s certainly a disturbance in the force which is why things are being thrown in to chaos.
The emergence of SNP in Westminster, Jeremy Corbyn. They were never in the plan.
Of course we see the same in America with Bernie sanders. This is why Wall Street is in a tis.
Of course Clinton will win the day with her ‘super delegates’
The days are long gone when (some) Labour politicians had principles.
Labour would rather abstain than vote on principle on anything.
I don’t care how, why or where Labour are going wrong. They are so fundamentally twisted and disingenuous with whatever they happen to be saying that fair minded people want nothing to do with them these days. As a consequence, they have a pool of talent which is forever shrinking, and have neither the vision nor intellect to do anything about it. For the likes of Murphy or Dugdale to make it too the top, you know the climb hasn’t been much of a challenge.
So Labour? Who cares? They don’t.
But Rev Stu is on the money yet again. But rather than dwelling on Labour, I would rather dwell upon all the vibrancy and political vitality which surrounded the Indyref. Our “media” should be behind bars for churning out all that pish about keeping the pound and EU membership at a time when we could and should have been exploring new political horizons with an inspired population chucking all sorts of great ideas into the pot. Mention the Common Weal now, and all you get is a blank stare.
I not only condemn our rotten media for what it did, it should be equally condemned for what it didn’t do.
Scotland will become independent. I am sure it will happen. But even so, ‘something’ died that should have lived in 2014 when starved of oxygen by the rancid press. We must never let those bastards destroy our aspirations again. Never. Never. Never.
I don’t care that Labour is sprinting towards its own extinction. We lost something much more valuable and relevant in 2014.
O/T.
A news item today states that David Cameron’s Mother, Mary, seems to oppose her son.
David Cameron’s mother signs anti-cuts petition:-
@ Robert Peffers 9:19pm
“Yet, in 1745, Cumberland was murdering innocent civilians, including babes in arms, after the Battle of Culloden.”
The Battle of Culloden was in 1746.
I know you’re a stickler for facts.
Robert Peffers @ 21:19 hrs.
Don’t forget Westminster’s ” Alien Act” of 17:05, (actually I think it is still in force today, AND in use!.)
@Albaman
“Don’t forget Westminster’s ” Alien Act” of 17:05”
Sneaky buggers, just after Pointless started so nobody would notice. 😉
Leaked private letter/email, IDS to the UKOK Pig fancier. If its fact, its quite a UKOK change too-
REMOVE BENEFIT CLAIMANTS FROM ELECTORAL REGISTER, DEMANDS IAIN DUNCAN SMITH
FEBRUARY 9, 2016 ADMIN 31 COMMENTS
Iain Duncan Smith has reportedly demanded that those in receipt of benefits be removed from the electoral register, according to a letter leaked to the press today.
The Work and Pensions Secretary justified his request by arguing that it is unfair that people not currently paying into the system, either through working or by being high net wealth individuals, should be allowed to have a say in how public money is spent.
Lochside @ 8:27pm
Thepnr @ 8:35
Didn’t see it,jist as well….birlin’ not in a good wae…..wae the boke !
‘Twelve voices were shouting in anger,and they were all alike.No question,now,what had happened to the faces of the pigs.The creatures outside looked from pig to man,and from man to pig,and from pig to man again;but already it was impossible to say which was which.’
#RedBlue
tick tock
Charles McGregor@ 21:50 hrs.
Ach sorry Charlie, =the Alien Act passed by Westminster in the year 17:05,
O.K.?.
If you are a Westminster MP you will be getting a second salary increase. On top of the 10% increase 9 months ago, they will get another £1,000. MPs will get £75,000 a year and Ministers will get an additional £68,000.
This is to bring them into line with “public sector pay”. Don’t laugh.
http://on.rt.com/747c
Have only just got properly back online after five straight days with virtually no access – was decanted from home to allow building works, and had to stay with relatives at two separate homes.
Both had television on constantly, even if it wasn’t being ‘watched’. First time in, oooh, maybe five or six years that I’ve ‘had’ to watch telly, and I’m still trying to work out what it was all about.
And why is this relevant to this thread?
Rev, on Twitter earlier, mentioned how it’s a bit weird that none of the various groups and parties selling this or that position on EU membership seem to be doing much ‘selling’ at all. I daresay none of us are having our front doors battered by pro or anti-EU campaigners of an evening, and I haven’t had any literature through the letterbox. None at all.
But when you ‘watch’ the telly, and see how politics is being conducted now, it shouldn’t be surprising. The packaging of each and every news item, whether it’s vaguely political or not, follows patterns which are so blatantly designed for the consumption of idiots that the prospect of any ‘real’ debate on anything substantial becomes vanishingly small.
Does that sound unfair? Well, it should, because it is ‘unfair’ that mainstream broadcasters pitch their material at imagined consumers who may well be of average intelligence, but possess the critical faculties of a coco-pop. We are not seeing any meaningful debate about the EU referendum because it hurts people’s heads and that makes them switch channel.
Meaningful indy-ref debates would’ve been similarly scarce had it not been for the intense passions involved – some of that energy inevitably seeped into various broadcasts despite huge efforts to ignore it. MSM are not having to exert anywhere near as much effort with regard to the EU ref because not enough people give a fuck. Apart from? aye, pro-Indy Scots who see this as yet another chance to precipitate indyref2.
For most undiscerning consumers of main stream pap, the EU debate will be of about as much interest as all the Maastricht shite was to Scots all those years ago. We knew it was ‘important’, but nowhere near important enough to get excited, start a blog, make a big flag or join a march.
@Heedtracker,
That story is actually not true.It is a satire.
Funnily enough,I wonder how many people would take it at face value. Just goes to show that expectations from the Tories have zero limits.
Why is toryboy world, 37% UKOK vote share, stripping out away millions of voters, who arent rich?
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voter-registration
Electoral Register
Missing Millions
Millions are at risk of falling off the electoral register
Voter Registration
EC likes it but real world
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-tories-are-removing-twice-as-many-people-from-the-electoral-register-in-britains-poorest-areas-a6701446.html
Have to hand it to the toryboys, they’re not letting something like democracy get in their way. BBC propaganda will keep us in line, they always do.
Bob Mack says:
10 February, 2016 at 10:02 pm
@Heedtracker,
That story is actually not true.It is a satire.
But the new electoral registration process ends head of household registering everyone in their house, if they wish.
How many wont even register now? Google execs might get round to it, in between flying Osborne and his family over to the Super Bowl, having agreed to pay a pepper corn UKOk tax bill, on multi billion profits, organised by Osborne. Its so corrupt, that story could be satire too. It wasn’t reported by his BBC, ofcourse.
Iain Brotherhood @ 10.01
Glad you said that thought it was just me.
Every time I catch the news ect I am only left thinking of the next obvious half a dozen questions that don’t get asked or wondering if it’s been noticed that a question hasn’t been definitively answered.
As the opposition are unworthy of the name, or shite if you prefer! this coming election will be Scotland v The BBC
Some great posts on here tonight
I was struck by the poll on nuclear weapons. So 51% want to get rid of nukes and 40% retain them, but 6% switch back to No if the question reminds one that other folk will have nuclear weapons?
As a result the balance is tipped in the poll from Yes to No. We focus on the 6% of folk who are unable to make a principled call and stick with it. They should simply be excluded along with the don’t knows from the poll leaving 45% to 40% or 53% to 47% excluding don’t knows and the easily swayed. Christ- take a position!
It would be interesting to ask those 40% who would retain nuclear weapons how many would do so even if every other country on earth got rid of them. Something tells me the answer would probably not be zero.
I sometimes wonder how long we are going to have these discussions… as a country or a species. Dave thinks its a vote-loser in England and no doubt under the current press regime he is right. I think that it will take time to change opinion down south and we still have a long way to go in Scotland.
2 out of 3 of the leaders of the largest political parties in westminster want to get rid of nuclear weapons so I guess thinking it is a lost cause is maybe giving up a little easily.
Politics is about representing interests but not purely representing opinions. The policians are meant to lead the public and be lead by the public and that balancing act is the skill.
https://twitter.com/HolyroodDaily/status/697378571732586496
“Oh look, Scottish Labour’s spending plans. I like pie.”
STV are leading on the poll conducted for them by IPSOS MORI.What they haven’t mentioned is that the poll found support for independence at 52%.
@ IvMoz and Robert Peffers
To be clear guys, units of the British Army, operating under a Union Flag and on orders of a Royal (Cumberland), carried out battlefield murder of injured and captured Jacobite troops in a manner and scale no different from the way SS units did in some incidents during ww2.
The same units (and others of the British Army) then went on to brutalise, rape and murder civilians in the same manner as SS units did in villages throughout Europe in ww2. Again, under orders of Establishment Officers.
I had a twitter exchange several months ago on this matter with an ultra unionist who was originally called wanderinulsterscot, but changed his title to big g Fae the big g. No prizes for guessing what football team he and his followers support, but I was subjected to vile sectarian abuse (despite being an atheist) and it was clear by his coments that he and his comrades would happily behave in the same manner as those British troops did in 1746.
Oops I tried this before with the http bit and I’m expecting hammers at the door now. Sorry.
I was trying to say
A great bit of writing that brought to mind Mhairi Black’s maiden speech
youtu.be/lZAmhB55_-k
Oh I give up trying to post the link.
We all remember it though.
Weathercocks or signposts?
@ Capella says at 9:00 pm …. ”Petra .. You describe an absolute nightmarish world of Zero Hours Contracts, unemployment, benefit withheld, and sanctions. Kafka’s world was more sane and rational. Those of us fortunate enough to be able to avoid DWP persecution need to be made aware of this. Thanks for describing it so vividly.”
Capella I’ve only been supporting people on ZHCs and have found myself feeling positively ill with what’s going on. It’s a nightmare for these poor people as they are ‘betwixt and between’. They are constantly searching for permanent posts on their ‘days off’, having to log applications daily and can spend hours on the phone / visiting DWP offices trying to sort THEIR mess out.
No days off (not even a Sunday) …. no rest …. no decent future to look forward to …. no hope …. and little or no money.
Many are also treated like dirt at work, bullied constantly and under constant stress wondering if they’ll get work for the following day. At one (big buck) whisky company that I know of they actually line up at the end of the working day to see if their name is on the board (for the next day). No matter how miserable they may be they can’t pack their jobs in as they’ll be sanctioned for God knows how long. I’ve seen grown men who previously held decent permanent posts sitting with their heads in their hands crying: At the end of their line. To my mind they must be the most badly treated people in the UK and that’s saying something. I can’t begin to tell you how much I pray to see an end to this bl**dy God forsaken Union.
……………………..
@ Effijy says at 8:39 pm …. ”Thanks Petra. Westminster really do take us for mugs. They want to take and give nothing in return to the workers.”
Hopefully not for much longer Effijy x
……………………….
@ FairFerfochen says at 8:03 pm …. ”Tommy Sheppard’s point of order.”
Brilliant FairFerfochen. Tommy pointing out how blatantly unfair their system ( ? ) is. Questioning their integrity.
How dare he!
I reckon Westminster doesn’t know what’s hit it since our SNP MSPs loped over the doorstep, especially after experiencing years of having the SLab zombies loll around in their pews or prop up the bars.
Last week Alison Thewliss SNP MSP led the debate on breastfeeding being allowed at Westminster, as is at Holyrood. Good for her but I had a bit of a laugh about this, and some of what she said, just imagining their gobs hanging open and their eyes popping. Babies! Babies! We hate babies (everyone but ourselves in fact)! Babies in Westminster drowning out our braying. Whit the …!
How dare she!
Alison said ”The right to feed is enshrined in law in Scotland, has been a real reassurance to me, and whether I have been feeding in a café, waiting for a bus, or in the stand at Hampden—I have been lucky in securing the backing of the tartan army for giving the wee man his tea at the game—I have been made welcome.”
Ha, ha ha! Hampden … football matches … tartan army (the very name … hope it put the fear of death into them). They all have the impression that Glasgow is full of hard men (for them?). Glasgow that mean ‘Mean City’ that Nicola can wander around, weaving in and out of dense crowds, without getting mugged or egged (hugged and kissed instead), a Tartan Army actually protecting it’s (breastfeeding) wimmen and weans but ready to boot Cameron et als ar*e if he / they take one step outside of his / their protected zone on their visits to Scotland. Now we know why they supplied Ruthie with a tank.
I can just imagine them having to call an emergency meeting after that with their many, behind the scenes, psychological experts trying to help them make sense of it all. On the agenda ‘What makes the Scots tick?’
Psychological evaluation and conclusion: ”We don’t know. They’re a total enigma. We’ve checked every psychological tome … they like babies … kind … brave … inventive … honest … empathetic … hard-working … compassionate … adventurous … highly intelligent … loyal … trustworthy …. NO help at all. They just seem to be different from us. Advice: Just keep your distance in case their symptoms are infectious.”
http://www.babymilkaction.org/archives/4000
http://www.glasgowsnp.org/MPs/Alison_Thewliss_MP/Scots_MP_to_lead_Westminster_debate_on_breast_feeding/
@ Laverock … is that the one? Brilliant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZAmhB55_-k
Have I got this wrong?
Mr Cameron referred to his desire to see the SNP decide what TAXES they would raise if we accept his stitch-up as reported on BBBC Scotland.
I was only aware of the administration of ONE tax that was to be partially devolved – income tax rates and bands. The Presenters did not refer to this in any way, nor any other tax that would explain his statement.
As they are not Reporters or Journalists, but simply presenters of propaganda, have I misunderstood – or is he offering something more – or is he just spouting shite as per usual?
Thanks Petra, that’s the one.
Faffing about with a phone and dodgy wifi grrrrrr
@Dave Robb –
It seems that Big Bad Dave (for it is he) wants to prove his manhood and mettle, showing his baws by standing up to the fearsome Nats.
Unfortunately, no-one can see his baws – the view will forever be obstructed by the ghost of a poor pig’s deid heid.
Ian Brotherhood
Ah, so debasing common morality so as to become one of the “elect”, isn’t your cup of tea? Whimp. 😉
http://caltonjock.com/2016/02/11/scotland-after-the-referendum-is-it-now-a-nation-of-political-eunuchs/
Kenny @12.12 pm
Just watched 3000 Trees – http://WWW.justiceforwillie.com.
I would encourage everyone on Wings to watch this in it’s entirety.
The powers that be have no scruples. Even for their own. Charlie’s breeding dam was even taken out. The establishment only wanted one male. She produced two. Poor buggar will never know who his father is.
To those who wonder who Willie is,it’s Willie MacRae, murdered? by the establishment’s MI5. Google it for info.
Petra @ 11.34.
Brilliant post.
Mair power to Alison. I breastfed my boys when it was unfashionable to do so. Happy to say my 3 daughters-in-law breastfed my grandchildren.
Have you got a link to Alison Thewliss’ speech?
English votes system ‘unstable’ warn MPs
The new system of “English Votes for English Laws” is overly complicated and may not last long, MPs have warned.
https://archive.is/m91Pv
From Herald:
“But in a report, the committee – which it was highlighted has four Nationalist, four Tory and three Labour members – came out in “unanimous” support of Mr Swinney’s preferred option. “ [Commons Scottish Affairs Commitee]
The advantage of having 54/56 SNP MPs at Westminster, giving them full representation and Chair of the SAC.
It looks like there are no helping “hands” for Cameron.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmscotaf/660/660.pdf
Present on the 8th Feb and agreeing to the report were:
SNP – Pete Wishart, in the Chair
Lab – Mr David Anderson
SNP – Kirsty Blackman
Con – Mr Christopher Chope
Lab – Mr Jim Cunningham
SNP – Margaret Ferrier
Lab – Mr Stephen Hepburn
SNP – Chris Law
Con – Maggie Throup
Fair play to them. 4 SNP, 3 Lab, 2 Con present.
@ Still Positive says at 12:50am ” ….. Mair power to Alison. I breastfed my boys when it was unfashionable to do so. Happy to say my 3 daughters-in-law breastfed my grandchildren. Have you got a link to Alison Thewliss’ speech?”
Still positive I’ve been searching … trying to find where I (recently) came across this information in the first place.
In my last post I said ”Last week Alison Thewliss SNP MSP led the debate on breastfeeding being allowed at Westminster, as is at Holyrood.”
It may not have been ‘last week’ at all. Apologies if the timing (date) is out.
Petra 1.36
I strongly suspect it was a Westminster Hall debate which I seldom see on the Parliament Channel, unfortunately.
If you can g
Petra 1.36
I strongly suspect it was a Westminster Hall debate which I seldom see on the Parliament Channel, unfortunately.
If you can give me a link to Westminster Hall that would be great.
@ yesindyref2 says at 1:00 am ….”From Herald: “But in a report, the committee – which it was highlighted has four Nationalist, four Tory and three Labour members – came out in “unanimous” support of Mr Swinney’s preferred option. “ [Commons Scottish Affairs Commitee]
The advantage of having 54/56 SNP MPs at Westminster, giving them full representation and Chair of the SAC.
It looks like there are no helping “hands” for Cameron.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmscotaf/660/660.pdf
Present on the 8th Feb and agreeing to the report were:
SNP – Pete Wishart, in the Chair
Lab – Mr David Anderson
SNP – Kirsty Blackman
Con – Mr Christopher Chope
Lab – Mr Jim Cunningham
SNP – Margaret Ferrier
Lab – Mr Stephen Hepburn
SNP – Chris Law
Con – Maggie Throup
Fair play to them. 4 SNP, 3 Lab, 2 Con present.”
Thanks for posting the link yesindyref2. Great news … Labour and Tories supporting the SNP … just doing what’s right for a change? Whatever the case things are fairly looking up.
…………………….
@ Kenny at 12.12 pm … ”Just watched 3000 Trees – http://www.justiceforwillie.com.
I would encourage everyone on Wings to watch this in it’s entirety. The powers that be have no scruples……”
Kenny this is definitely a cause that Wingers, all Scots in fact, should support. The Establishment literally got away with murder. The murder of Willie MacRae (SNP).
Petra @ 2.01
I regularly watch Parliament TV,for my sins, and Christopher Chope turns up regularly to put the government’s POV. He is totally a right-wing place man. Not surprised he is on the SAC. Surprising he agreed with the SNP.
@Still Positive
I’m not sure how these committees work. The report was supposedly accepted unanimously, but I don’t know if they vote on each part, or do it by concensus, even if some have reservations, so it’s possible Chope just goes along with it as he’s out-numbered. Like I say, I don’t know how it works!
Christopher Chope is another crook. Claimed £Thousand in expenses, including £800 to repair a sofa. Brought in the Poll tax and sold off council houses. A private landlord who supported evictions. He called Westminster staff servants. A disgusting person.
Scotland is outvoted 10 to 1 at Westminster. Independence is coming.
Osbourne is a crook. They have no shame. He went to the Super Bowl courtesy of Google.
My son, his girlfriend and I saw 3000 Trees in the run up to the Referendum.
An incredibly powerful play.
The actors mixed with the crowd before and after the performance! That is the beauty of Scotland, nae airs and graces.
For some time I wondered if what Willie Macrae had uncovered and was about to make public was some cover up about the Doune Rae nuclear power plant/experiments in Caithness. Or could he have had a lists of names of those involved in paedophile crimes in Westminster?
Very well worth watching. See above: Kenny 10.2.16 12.21pm
Sorry! Made a mistake:
3000 Trees. ‘Justice for Willie’
See above: Kenny 10.2.16 12.12pm
Apologies if this has been posted before but I have just seen Rowling’s post on Twitter, as a wife of a doctor, then a poster support for junior doctors.
Not reported in any paper near you anytime soon using the same journalistic license
JK ROWLING SUPPORTS THE SNP
In a amazing about turn the saintly author of classic literature has today thrown her not inconsiderable weight behind the SNP administration in Holyrood!
O/T links
http://ponsonbypost.com/index.php/news/59-a-council-tax-story-we-ve-heard-before-from-people-we-ve-seen-before
http://www.snp.org/funding_for_scotland_s_councils_explained
http://tommysheppardmp.scot/index.php/create-blog/entry/bbc-charter-review-consultation-and-other-stories
http://www.joanmcalpine.com/cabinet_secretary_confirms_attendance_allowance_recipients_to_be_protected_after_question_from_local_msp
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/deutsche-bank-the-incomprehensible-contradiction-and-the-indefensible-union/
GMS on NO DETRIMENT.
Prof Tomkins reduced to bumbling and mumbling on a simple question.
Mr Hosie said the revised proposal by the SNP was just a simplification of previous proposal so that Mr Cameron could understand it.
Mundell earlier was a nasty piece of anti Scottish bad mouthing of all Scots.How can anyone in Scotland vote vile Tory?
O/T links
http://ponsonbypost.com/index.php/news/59-a-council-tax-story-we-ve-heard-before-from-people-we-ve-seen-before
http://www.snp.org/funding_for_scotland_s_councils_explained
http://tommysheppardmp.scot/index.php/create-blog/entry/bbc-charter-review-consultation-and-other-stories
http://www.joanmcalpine.com/cabinet_secretary_confirms_attendance_allowance_recipients_to_be_protected_after_question_from_local_msp
O/T links
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/deutsche-bank-the-incomprehensible-contradiction-and-the-indefensible-union/
https://www.rt.com/news/332076-poland-bbc-bias-complaint/
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/02/11/parliament-votes-to-keep-mps-arrests-secret-from-the-public-and-just-one-member-voted-against/
George Kerevan takes apart treasury indyref position
http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/d9f70fe9-c1fa-4fa8-a05e-a68eb6bbb1b2?in=14:33:08&out=14:45:00
I see Angus Robertson had a wee run in with Cameron yesterday.
A telling line from Mr Robertson:
“In the context of the referendums, whether in Scotland or across the UK on EU membership, do not voters have a right to know that what is promised by the UK Government can be trusted and will be delivered in full? Will the Prime Minister tell the Treasury that time is running out on delivering a fair fiscal framework, and that it must agree a deal that is both fair to Scotland and fair to the rest of the United Kingdom?”
If that’s not lining up the dominoes, I don’t know what is. 🙂
Is our society democratic?
My essay published tomorrow on:https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2016/02/10/goodbye-landie/
@Nana
That Kerevan link is a keeper Nana. 🙂
Brillaint Petra! “An if ye don’t take it ah’ll gie it tae that man ower there!” points at the Tory front bench. 🙂
George Kerevan slowly unpicking the Whitehall tapestry.
Who would have thought that Our Civil Servants would subvert the FOI system to their own ends?
Kerevan earned his salary in that session alone.
Nana
Great link on Kerevan & Treasury-bookmarked for future use 🙂
Macart-totally agree
@Macart
Engineering an FOI to suit Westminster’s aims. No doubt creative accountancy is and always has been being used for Scotland as well.
Seems anything goes to maintain England.
Nana,
Great links as per usual from you.Thanks again for your diligence.
@ Nana
Re George Kerevan link:
Soon-to-be-Lord Macpherson doesn’t understand that England is not Britain. After independence he will be an English Lord.
I hope it was worth it.
Nicholas MacPherson unelected, conceited civil servant decides Westminster policy. The Treasury illegally and secretly took Scottish Oil revenues. The lying illegal wars and banking fraud. HMRC not fit for purpose. Google taxed at 3%. Scottish Oil sector taxed at 60%. Costing thousands of jobs. The price has fallen 75%. The Tories out to ruin the Scottish economy.
@ Macart 8.48
Aye, well Mr Cameron, if ye play with ra big yins ye can expect a few bruises!
Nana re George Kerevan link:
Soon-to-be-Lord Macpherson doesn’t understand that England is not Britain. After independence he will be an English Lord.
I hope it was worth it.
@Nana
More the UK state Nana, but yes. As far as the treaury goes anything required to protect the interests and integrity of the state.
There is no accurate set of accounting for Scotland in existence, no true picture of Scotland’s contributions and accountability for the public to access. I suspect if there were, more than a few pointed questions would aimed at central govt. I seem to recall the Cuthberts did a piece on Bella a while back explaining this discrepancy in detail and debunking the false image created with GERS figures.
I also suspect Scotland’s true contribution and balance will only ever surface in the event of independence. However, as many have said over the past few years, if Scotland is such a basket case… etc. 🙂
Akismet playing up again – sorry about double post. It wasn’t worth repeating!
Still not retaining login details and double click no longer works either. Sigh.
What is it with these MacPherson’s? Jackie Bird’s another. A clan which historically lacked an alarm clock & generally turned up late for the action. Ah could gie ye a list.
RE the Treasury link
The thing won’t play for me.
Can anyone tell me what it’s about please.
Capella @ 9:55am
“After independence he will be an English Lord”
Where will that leave the current Scottish “Lords”?
Will they keep their dead stoat coats and titles even though the titles shouldn’t be recognised here in Scotland.
Same goes for Charlie Windsor the duke of Rothesay.
I would hope we don’t have any type of system like the “Lords”.
Either that or we start giving everyone a title to become the Lord of some Historic Market Town in Engerluuuund even though it means nothing.
@ Inverclyder, like the folks did in East Germany we’ll get rid of them Von by Von! 🙂
@ Inverclyde, the House of Lords is an insult to democracy. Second largest legislature in the world, after the Chinese politburo, and none of them elected. Largest legislature in Europe. A disgrace.
So any political party with a shred of integrity ought to have a policy to abolish it.
@ liz Grey
Nicholas Macpherson is questioned by George Kerevan in the Treasury Committee. GK reminds NM that before the Scottish Refeerendum NM published his advice to the Chancellor, the “Treasury position”, that a currency union would not be agreed between Scotland and “Britain”. He took this unusual step because he believed the “British State” was in danger. He compares the situation to 1940.
GK asks him what the Treasury position is on the EU referendum. NM asserts there isn’t one.
Civil servants are not supposed to publish their advice to ministers. NM says he could have got a mate to ask for an FOI and done it that way.
Thanks Capella
Way off topic…
I receive many links to articles as well as those I source myself. I then make the time to read and decide which to post. Occasionally one or two I consider to be nasty or malicious and those get binned. Yesterday morning one link got posted which should have been a completely different one which I later recovered from deleted files.
I’ve been on Wings for a long time and believe that is the first time I’ve posted a ‘wrong un’ and I apologised immediately I was alerted to it and spent a good part of the day beating myself up.
I am grateful to those who showed their support & will carry on posting links as my small way of supporting Scottish independence which I pray will not be too long coming. After all I’m getting on a bit!
Nana says:
11 February, 2016 at 11:00 am
Way off topic…
You’re the best WoS poster Nana. We all make mistakes and that’s all it was.
Keep em coming!
Nana
Your links are a great asset and I look forward to them and try to read as many as possible.
Keep them coming, one rogue link is not something to beat yourself up about.
There is so much stuff out there it can be hard to sift through it all to avoid the bad uns.
Nana,
Don’t worry. As heedtracker says “keep them coming”.
I share a lot of your posts on Facebook as I do with other posts on here.
I just love Wings!
@Nana,
Actually your ” mistake” ,regardless of intent or politics of original site, was rather enlightening.
Reading between the lines indicates the West were somewhat colluding with those we regard as dangerous jihadis
Politics is truly a very dirty business indeed.
You are the best of the best Nana.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/11/mps-criticise-bbc-for-failing-to-curb-executive-pay
They do pay themselves mega bucks but they earn them too. Money fight! They destroyed the Scottish referendum with mountains of terrifying UKOK bullshit and continue doing so now. Yesterday’s thing with Bird, fat boy and Cammers trolling letter, was classic BBC attack propaganda.
Oh wait, no mention of BBC Scotland in rancid The Graun thing, as per.
@Nana
You’re the best info mine on site bar none. You keep on doing what you’re doing.
Now don’t make me come up there. 😀
Nana
I am always very grateful for your links. You educate me daily and I share the info with many others. You’re a star, and an invaluable asset to WOS.
That wasn’t a wrong ‘un. It’s always good to see what the nutjobs are thinking. Forewarned is forearmed.
It’s plain to see for everyone how the vote no deal has panned out – I mean how can anyone sit and think it’s been a good deal when all you hear is “when are the SNP going to use there substantial tax rasing powers” I mean that statement itself is self defeating.
So we voted no and got the power to raise taxes. Great. No voters must have woken up now. Come on No’ers. There’s no deal for Scotland apart from a bad deal.
@ Nana
Your links are valuable food for thought on WoS. Please keep on posting. Much appreciated!
Jings and there’s me with no tissues in the hoose, stop it now or I’ll be resorted to using my sleeve.
More links you say well here’s misreporting Scotland.
https://www.facebook.com/WestDumfriesSNP/posts/1259599924056923
@Macart If you’re ever passing let me know and I’ll bake a cake.
OT. First Minister’s Questions starting in a few minutes.
Scottish Parliament TV Live:-
http://tinyurl.com/zypubu2
Usally Archived within an hour.
The state of this and archive is off air.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/11/snp-denies-nobbling-fiscal-commissions-oversight-powers
Just rancid The Graun’s John Boris Karloff Swinney photo alone’s a great show of Rupert Carrell’s detestation of Scottish democracy. I guess the harder UKOK yoons rage against Scotland’s devo, the more likely its going to happen very soon.
To be fair to hammer of the Scots Rupert Carrell, Gruan’s v scary mono chrome photo of Swinney doesn’t come close to Scottish Sun morphing Sturgeon into Thatcher on Monday Sun’s attacks, in a few pics, under their “Maggie Natcher” headline. Its a keeper, for collectors of contemporary neo fascist UKOK press propaganda. What are UKOK far right liggers so frightened of these days.
@Nana
Ooooo cake. 🙂
Labour/Unionists voted No. They voted for cuts. They voted for austerity. Total hypocrites.
The want to pay more tax for Trident, illegal wars, banking fraud etc. Cost £10Billion. Instead of Independence.
Roll on May
If Scotland had voted YES there would have been £10Billion more to spend more wisely.
£4Billion goes on debt repayments Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend, £2Billion on Trident and no tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. A cut in the 60% tax on the North Sea sector would raise £Billions which is being lost. More Oil & Gas has to be imported.
Marra lying. 150 rigs to go if price remains low and tax isn’t cut.
O/T but an interesting read in the Guradian.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/11/trident-the-british-question.
Towards the end it brings out the problem for the Establishment when Scotland is Free…
“Diminishment of the State”. That is a topic well worth going into.
Who shouted Carmichael during FMQ’s
https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/697763048367525888?lang=en-gb
Yet another great link to Kerevan’s exposure of MacPherson’s inappropriately partisan behaviour.
Reminds me of a verse from a Scottish folk song we used to sing in a folk group I was a member of about a hundred years ago.
‘MacPherson’s Lament’ verse 6
Sae he took the fiddle in the baith o’ aze hands
And he brake it ower a stane
“Nae ither hand shall play on thee
When I am deid and gane”
PS forgot the @Nana
Nana the work you do is phenomenal in extent and effect.
Don’t know where you get the energy from.
Thank you.
@robert kerr.
yes that is an unusually fine piece in the guardian (which is really poor these days). These occasional “long read” articles quite often stand out as well above the rest of the guardian’s output. I don’t know if they are all by ian jack, I suppose I should have payed more attention to authorship.
@Nanna Smith
Like everyone’s sayin Nanna keep on posting.You’re links are one of the best thing’s about this site.
Don’t know if you realise but you can pretty much stay updated on everything that’s going on from you’re link’s alone.
I can’t see that you did anything wrong in fact it was a good example of a headline attracting you in to some propaganda.
While it was nasty,it was also clearly not related to the politics this site is about and we are all grown ups(allegedly) this is a site where stuff like that wouldn’t get any traction so stop worrying about it.
@Nana
Don’t you worry about that link. I found it interesting anyway. BTW how’s that poor longsuffering man of yours doing? Hope he’s mending.
@Macart
What’s this favouritism, eh? Cake FGS! Bloody cherry on top too I bet 😉
@X_Sticks
Now don’t you go putting Nana off that thought. 😀 LOL
@Chic Ah Chic the old batteries are taking longer to charge these days.
@Liz G I worried about the link in case Wings was maybe tarnished by it. To be honest I’ve seen much worse but still did not want anyone to feel offended.
@X-Sticks That poor lonnnnng suffering man of mine is recovering from his op but its a slow recovery. On top of that he’s got me to contend with, never mind I’ll bake a cake for him too.
Robert Kerr says:
11 February, 2016 at 12:46 pm
O/T but an interesting read in the Guradian.
Interesting that this yoon leaves out the fact that Trident was routinely deployed by Project Fear against Scottish democracy, as in SLab’s vote YES and lose 19,000 nuke sub Faslane jobs. That was SLabour stars and exstars, Baillie, Ian Davidson, the Herald etc.
So if youre a UKOK tactician, working to keep control of a large chunk of teamGB, Trident more than paid its way in the farce referendum of 2014.
There is and was a WMD back lash in their Scotland region though, as SLab sink beneath the waves for good. Trident helped BetterTogether win and then helped SLab disappear from Scotland, which is probably not exactly why our imperial masters bought it. Dysfunction UKOK style, as usual
Ian Jack’s a hard core British nationalist but he’s got very wealthy from it all too. And why not.
@Nana
I like cake!
@Yesindyref2
I thought you liked pie? 🙂
@Chic,
Would that song be McPerson,s Fairwell Chic?
I remember Hamish Imlach doing this on Folk night in the Locarno ballroom,think it used to be a Tuesday night 🙂
@yesindyref2
You are added to the list. Looks like I’m going to need a bigger oven.
and & Macart I make a mean pie too!
Nanna Smith @ 1.32
Yes that was my concern too but he’s a big boy, and all we can do is draw his attention to it and leave him to use his own jugment,and that was done within 15min.
If they’re gonna have a go and they will,they will pick something any way doesn’t seem to matter much what.
Eh!!!! Cake????
@ Robert Kerr
A very interesting read. Thanks for link. It is also long!
So nuclear subs are not about defence really but all about pride. How pathetic that the Westminster pols haven’t got the strength of character to scrap them.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/11/trident-the-british-question
Arvhive.is is down.
Archive.is working after all. Here’s the archived link.
https://archive.is/0ddfR
@Nana
‘make a mean pie’
I don’t doubt it. 😀
Playing a blinder with those links today Nana. The bella link is another keeper.
@ Alan
“Spanner” right in the works. It was funny to see Severin locking his next article to comments the following day. BUM on the RUN. 😉