The new lie
Alert readers may recall as far back as July of last year, when we highlighted an odd thing that Scottish Labour branch manager Kezia Dugdale had started saying.
Regardless of the fact that it was total hooey, Dugdale repeated it every chance she got, and the inevitable Scottish-media consequences have duly followed.
If Unionist politicians keep pushing the same piece of hogwash often enough, as sure as night follows day it’ll become received wisdom in the Scottish commentariat, and while we expect no better of Torrance, Alex Massie is usually smarter than this.
As inconvenient as it might be for writers who like offering their readers easy-to-digest black-and-white propositions, Scottish politics in 2017 just isn’t that simple. The Venn diagram of who supports independence and who supports Brexit and who supports which parties is an incomprehensibly tangled knot in 3D.
(Actually we’re not even sure you could make a Venn diagram of it. You might need to call on MC Escher to get it to work.)
There’s still a majority for the Union and there’s still a (much bigger) majority for the EU, but they’re not the same people and you can’t just conflate them. The only two polls that we’re aware of to have asked a straight four-option question encompassing independence and Brexit both produced very similar results:
JULY 2015
SEPTEMBER 2016
Both of those polls, conducted more than a year apart, showed that the single most preferred option in Scotland is independence within the EU. The “majority”, “middle ground” option favoured (and presented as a clear consensus) by Dugdale, Torrance and Massie is actually less popular, commanding the support of barely over a quarter of the population, and the margin by which it trails has quadrupled from a single point in 2015 to four points in 2016.
(Indeed, it’s in real danger of slipping to third choice. Most of the movement between the two polls has in fact been against the EU, with a significant growth in the number of Unionist Brexiters at the expense of Unionist Remainers and don’t knows. UK/EU led UK/Brexit by 16 points in 2015, but that lead is now down to just four points.)
We plan to ask the exact same question again in another poll shortly. But for years we’ve been documenting the phenomenon of fact-proof opinionating masquerading as journalism in Scotland. (Some might call it “post-truth”.) Keep your eyes open for this latest incarnation, folks. We suspect you’ll be hearing a lot more of it.
Brings to mind the Ben Hur deathbed quote
Is goes on Judah …. it goes on !
Its the collusion of comments that’s the give away, that some sort of cabal is working to save the Union.
No? It can’t be surely not?
I don’t think it’s collusion. I think it’s just intellectual laziness.
I may not post often Rev, but I am an regular reader, and like most, if not all on here, forward your comments to all my contacts, irrespective of their political beliefs.
Over the next year or so, we here, are going to need you, and your investigations into the unionist press, and their miss information, and yes, downright lies, like never before.
On reflection that’s kinda even worse, but probably more accurate.
Sums up our media in general sadly.
It’ll be interesting to see results of a similar poll conducted after Article 50 has been triggered.
Many people are still hoping it won’t happen but that hope will die once Article 50 hits the EU in-tray. That’s probably when we’ll begin to see real movement in the polls; until then, we’ll get answers based on the hope of a Brexit reversal rather than on reality.
You’re being too benevolent Rev is saying that they are intellectual.
I haven’t found in anything that they have said or written as comprehensible or intelligence based !
To be fair to Massie, he only mentions “the middle ground.” If you say that pro-indy and pro-Brexit are minorities and outliers in Scotland then it’s not *totally* unreasonable to say that the middle ground opposes both. The middle doesn’t becessarily mean the majority. It is kinda weasel words though.
This Gordian Knot requires an Alexandrian Solution – we cut ourselves free.
“The middle doesn’t becessarily mean the majority.”
No, it doesn’t – indeed it’s unlikely to if there are three positions, as the phrase implies. But the point of this post is that that isn’t the situation we’re dealing with here. There are FOUR options, so there isn’t a “middle”, and there simply isn’t any useful correlation between Yes/No and Remain/Leave, so conflating them is a fundamental misrepresentation of the situation.
The more intellectual commentators are already conceding that this situation could be a game changer as far as indy 2 is concerned. My time line is full of people who are beginning to awaken to new possibilities.
I think Torran e and Massive jnr are finding it hard because the side they support is daily setting conditions of their own and acting is total isolation by ignoring completely the wishes of the Scottish people. They do not matter.
It exposes completely that there is only one nation that matters in this union. One electorate who have dominance over the rest.
The Torrance guy and Massie realise this could become utterly indefensible and that is what really worries them. Caught in the lights without the mask of inclusion, reveals an ugly side to our union partners.
They are not about democracy. They are about total rule and control.
What concerns me about that is the strong move into the “Inside the UK, Outside the EU” category. Very worrying indeed.
Presumably Alan Roden feeding Dugdale this latest tactic and she is too dim to consider the consequences for people in Scotland when they can’t get away from the full Brexit disaster.
Another excellent tidy explanation.
Main thing is, Scots voters know exactly what options we have in front us. Yoon culture’s doing the exact opposite, shock!
Intellectual laziness indeed. Also to be filed under that heading:
£15bn deficit
Spanish veto
iScotland must adopt the Euro
Anti-English
No pensions
Hard border
And on and on. Regardless of how little truth there is in any of these and how often they are debunked, these zombie sound bites continually rise again.
It is smart, though. We waste enormous amounts of time and effort on these issues only to find them popping up afresh.
But it must be done. And you do it so well, Rev.
The really important thing that needs to be kept in mind is that the EU/UK is not an option. The Better Together assertion was proved to be false. It doesn’t matter how much Kezia and Rennie wibble about backing the EU and the UK, Theresa May is driving us down the hardest of hard Brexit roads and clearly has no intention of stopping until she achieves her destination (as yet unknown). Their position is utterly false. To hold it out as a glimmer of hope to prevent an Indy2 referendum is just dishonest.
The kind of Britain she is going to create isn’t the UK we used to know but something much harsher and more unpleasant. Any deal with the US will be TTIP on steroids and it will be the ordinary people that will feel the pain.
If we want to continue as we are we have to leave the UK and ideally retain our place in the EU without leaving. I heard Call Kaye today for the first time in ages. The callers that were anti-independence were basically anti-immigrant and not desperately pleasant.
Over the next 18 months the Scottish Government will have to secure some sort of agreement with the EU on our position should we vote for independence so the voters have a clear idea of what awaits. We cannot afford the cracks of uncertainty that will allow a Project Fear to witter on saying “the EU will no have you”. Likewise a clear plan on currency is needed. Put those two to bed and I think we can do this and seamlessly move to independence and stay in the EU.
It is intellectual laziness; but it’s also the desire to deceive, both oneself and others. As Bertrand Russell said-
“No satisfaction based upon self-deception is solid, and however unpleasant the truth may be, it is better to face it once and for all, to get used to it, and to proceed to build your life in accordance with it.”
Eh given the success of polls in 2016 , salt and rather big dose comes to mind . At best they are a guess whatever fancy method’s are used at worst they are a tool to try and enable the required outcome by the paymasters .
The ‘intellectual laziness’ Rev refers to above is exemplified by May’s rhetoric yesterday.
‘No deal is better than a bad deal’ she says, to applause.
What, precisely, are those folk approving?
May didn’t make or present a ‘case’ for Brexit so much as bare her Tory/City of London arse at a continent (and restless natives closer to home) who were already sick and tired of her party’s pigheadedness and cruelty.
Watching TM giving her speech, it was well rehearsed and put together with their spin doctors. She despite her “love” of the Union, she drove a spike into Scottish hopes. There will be no way Scotland can, or will, benefit from this mind set.
We know this now, indeed we knew it before, we will never get anything worthwhile from the cabal of Westminster. They want, indeed must, keep us hog tied. They would struggle without Scotland’s assets, the very ones they have misappropriated since the inception of the “Union” and beyond..
It is time we became much more vocal, and even more determined.
We will have everything thrown at us.
Let us not kid ourselves, it is not fundamentally the Union they are trying to protect it is England itself.
If it really was the Union, they would be more accommodating in their outlook towards us, and indeed the other nations involved.
There is only a true “Union” between Scotland and England, and they only value Scotland for what it provides in a myriad of ways that suit England, never Scotland. The time is coming, and we need to withstand their coming onslaught, then we will rise to where we should have been many many years ago.
It’s conflation, and you warn against it, but the numbers I tend to look at are the options that actually exist. In 2015, 32% of those polled wanted one of the options on the table (independent Scotland within the EU) and 15% wanted the other (inside the UK and outside the EU). In 2016, the first option remains steady at 32% but support for Scotland inside the UK and out of the EU has risen 9 points. I tend to think that’s meaningful. Independence outside of the EU is clearly the option nobody wants, and Scotland inside both unions can’t happen – that percentage could go anywhere.
For what it’s worth, my view is that the “hard No” will remain so no matter what. But there are people in that 24% who now know what Brexit means and I expect that 24% to drop. That’s also arguably the place where the most work will need done to convince people that being out of the EU is bad for their interests when the alternative is being tied to a southern tax haven.
All told?
You were right a wee while ago. The next referendum needs to promise an EU referendum if the result is Yes. I just don’t see any other way around it. And it’s perhaps comforting to see that 43% will vote for some kind of independence, when only 24% want the other realistic option on the table.
Just before I switched over hurriedly last night, I caught a glimpse of public-sector-pay enthusiast MSP Professor Adam Tomkins, who looked as if he’d just swallowed half a dozen pickled limes.
I’m not sure why Conservative-Tories think the Gillian McKeith look will appeal to voters. Is it to show how different they are from the Labour-Tory pie-faced look?
Handandshrimp @ 12.11pm, I could not agree more, but the EU have said the door will be open to us, may be needs to be louder. Now how do we let people know. The media are in bed with the Establishment, they are all pro Brexit. This was the problem the first time, this time there are no second chances.
The more polls the better over the next couple of years, and if you need money to pay for them just ask, I am sure we will all happily contribute.
O/T What a farcical answer by Mayday to Angus Robertson’s question on the consequences in Scotland of Brexit , she said he was a member of a party who wanted out of the U.K. and the single market , eh what f/kn planet is she on , Also the esteemed English speaker chose to censure Angus Robertson for questioning a answer while allowing a baying Tory mob to constantly to interrupt his second question , why the f/ck do we bother sending our MPs to the English Parliament it is a total bloody farce .
We can vote on EU, then leave pretty much immediately.
To leave UK, takes hundreds of years and blistering stupidity on the part of rUK.
Want Indy + No EU? Then indy 1st.
Want Indy + EU? Then indy 1st.
Want UK – EU? Then suffer – meh!
Want UK + EU? Impossible.
The last one will split into those who want to suffer and those who can be persuaded that they don’t need to.
Not forgetting, of course, the SGs board of advisors and the compromise proposal placed in UK govs hands only recently. It’s a bit inconvenient for the poor dears, but the SG have had a go at squaring that circle for those who wish to retain both unions.
Mind you Ms Dugdale is still ‘playing’ at politics whilst others actually work at it. She could say the moon is made of cheese, release the press statement and it would see print in every title the length of Scotland. The journos also need something to keep themselves occupied with between levels of Doom on the desktops I suppose. (shrugs)
Not sure what this post is getting so het up about.
Official poll – Vote to stay in EU, 60%
Later opinion poll – Support staying in Europe, 60%
Official poll – Vote to stay in UK, 55%
Later opinion poll – Support saying in UK, 52%
Plus ca change. Slicing and dicing within those figures is speculation (not lying).
If you want an interesting topic, it is how does the SNP sell EU membership to the 11% in the out of UK and EU contingent?
PLEASE ask the question twice in your poll. First with the four options as before.
Then again with the “in both” option removed. Or the other way, ask respondents who answer with that option to choose one of the others “assuming both is no longer possible”.
New poll coming out soon – exciting!
Proper one for a change – with no leading and daft questions like the recent ones from the Unionist press.
Should be very interesting. 🙂
Stu wrote a useful piece on this some time ago that deserves revisiting (if I can find it).
The key now is how the 2 options all but ruled out now break in terms of support. For the 11% of respondents who want indy out of the EU I am sure they will break for yes vote almost to a man. It is not that that is a dead proposition- it is just that it doesn’t carry anything like the level of support needs to be considered an option and so their second preferences are what count.
It is the supporters of Scotland in the UK and the EU like Massie and Torrance whose 2nd preference is key. That option is completely dead and while it is interesting to know how many support it those respondents, just like slab and the lib dems (and even some tories) need to get on board one of the 2 realistic propositions.
Alex Massie writes well and it is clear he is in something of a difficult place. Torrance has the same dilemma.
I would be surprised if there is not significant movement if this question was asked again with so much having happened since July last year.
I am hoping to see some prominent erstwhile unionists moving to yes in the coming days and weeks but let’s not intrude on their mourning for an idea of the UK that is now dead. Now is not the time for smugness or arrogance. Now we need positivity and purpose and an acceptance that it is possible to change one’s mind.
That is, after all the entire reason why a change of material circumstances of this nature makes another referendum a perfectly reasonable and democratic proposal.
Every time an SNP representative is in front of a microphone the 2 big lies must be referenced:
1. We were told that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No.
2. We were told we’re an equal partner in the “Union”.
EVERY time. Way past time to GTF off the defensive and take the gloves off. Four years past the time in fact.
Nicola Sturgeon has been bending over backwords to offer middle options for middle voters but the English government have rejected all compromises in favour of the do what we say or you die option
They did that in 2014 too, will Scotland fall for it again and be afraid very afraid of the invented dire consequences of Independence or will they choose the definite dire consequences within the insecure security of the UK of Englands Brexit and it’s bigger than you and we’ll threaten you with horrors democracy
So what does Scotland do, do we let England keep punching us in the face hoping it’s not too sore and the swelling will eventually go down or do we learn to fight our own fight and be allowed the choice of dodging this time
Independence eh, seems to mean different things to different people except when it’s Scottish Independence, other countries, even England actively support and celebrate Independence for themselves and others, but like oil Scottish Independence is the wrong kind
It’s no wonder other countries are unable to understand this phenomenon, except maybe North Korea, or China or Saudi Arabia, or………..
Democracy is what we say it is boy! so Tough!
Preaching to what is left of the party faithful?
Trying to take the center ground when it has just been nuked by westminster?
Do they seriously think we would trust them to do anything?
I will tell you how it will go red tories once a Scot votes yes to indy there is no turning back we will kick off indyref2 with 45% in the bag brexit and remain voters,because that is a side show the real show is indyref2 the rest can be sorted out after once we are free from imperialist UK better not together land of lies and cold shoulders.
@Phil Robertson
“If you want an interesting topic, it is how does the SNP sell EU membership to the 11% in the out of UK and EU contingent?”
Out of curiosity I have spoken to a couple of folk I know within the above view. Both said out of UK but in EU. Not saying this trend would continue. Perhaps EEA/EFTA might placate. Who knows.
Re the 31% pro UK pro eu- it might be instructive to gather as many quotes as possible from unionist politicians and pundits on how damaging leaving the eu will be for Scotland.
Tomkins on stv last night was squirming like mad with even the most gentle enquiry on how damaging leaving the eu would be for Scotland. McKay could have done with half a dozen quotes from the tories on that very subject.
If you commission an opinion poll, it would be really interesting to force the Yes-Leavers and No-Remainers into choosing between the two real options. Which way do they jump when push comes to shove?
O/T
I just put this response to an attempted 38Degrees attack on Transport Scotland and Scotrail. Apparently they are meeting Humza
“Scotrail’s service has not been shocking and has improved very considerably and is looking at further improvement as new rolling stock is brought into use. Its service is on a different planet for what is happening particularly in the South of England where many of my relatives live. Well over 50% of the supposed failing of Scotrail are problems with lines and overhead cables which are the responsibility of Network Rail which is not devolved to Scotland. I recently had cause to use Scotrail regularly in the Glasgow area and was hugely impressed.You are just repeating Labour spin.
Put this comment to the Transport Minister. I’ll ask him”
@Dr Jim
“They did that in 2014 too, will Scotland fall for it again and be afraid very afraid of the invented dire consequences…”
I think that is where we need to come up with a pretty detailed plan. Of course Westminster will try to besmirch that every set of the way but we will have cooperation from Europe (.assuming no dodgy deals are being done with Westminster behind our back).
A firmed up plan (obviously open to criticism) is surely better than no plan at all which is what we are seeing over Brexit.
I would prefer more emphasis on YES2 group of organisations and a bit less on SNP (although we know that MSM will focus on the latter to polarise opinion.)
If you want an interesting topic, it is how does the SNP sell EU membership to the 11% in the out of UK and EU contingent?”
I can hear Ligger Neil pounding away at a Remoaner Phil, Singapore is rich as hell and not in the EU, $80k a year per Singaporean, grunts the old bruiser. Its the real hard UKOK sell.
Singapore Phil, that’s where Britnat planet toryboy has gone now, in their mental go for Brexit glory, Teresa’s not a bumbleing fcukwit at all, Singapore!
Will you be offering “Scotland in both the UK and the EU” as an option in the next poll? It’s getting to the point where that’s starting to look like an escape hatch for the terminally delusional.
These people are going to have to make a choice, and fairly soon at that.
Basically this so called union is finished, even soft NO voters are starting to jump to the Yes side because of Brexit, for me its a no-brainer the EU over the rotten disintegrating uk everyday! Unionists should be very worried……
The middle ground in my local Caff wants a buttered roll and bacon. Others want a dry roll and bacon. Others want a buttered roll and no bacon.
What Gus the proprietor needs to know that as the middle ground means the lot with common sense, their choice of bacon buttie should prevail.
Everybody gets a buttered roll and bacon whether they like it or not..
What absolute pish from two Unionist chancers who make their dosh out of filling up column inches with quotes from long deid folk. They must have the same wee book of quotes.
Leaving the EU and Self Determination are two distinct issues.
Good try , rabble rousers, but no cigar.
John McCall
“What concerns me about that is the strong move into the “Inside the UK, Outside the EU” category. Very worrying indeed.”
While it is a matter of some concern, I can’t say it surprises me given that in between there has evidently been a successful referendum campaign by the Brexiteers.
But you may be alluding to another thought which has occurred to me of late namely the potential for Westminster to foster a siege mentality in regard to rEU ‘hostility’ and to use that to aid them in their plans of retaining Scotland.
It is certainly something I would seek to exploit if I were them.
However, I presume the SG are aware of that threat and are making it known in the right places in Europe.
A bit of love-bombing of Scotland by the rEU would, I feel, negate any such attempts.
Saw the Ad van this morning at the Battle of Bannockburn centre. It’s striking.
Only one other person there tho… plus the driver said he was moved on almost immediately from Stirling Castle by the Polis.. ‘ You can’t stop here, mate’ attitude.
Worried about trying to get near Edinburgh Castle.
Took him a Dundee cake to keep the troops going.
Beep and toot and get out and support this campaign – it needs energy.
Made it home in time to listen to PMQ’s.
Corbyn actually showed some fire today but was ‘slapped down’ by T May.
Angus Robertson laughed at when he suggested that the H of C is amused that Scotland could lose 80,000 jobs if taken out of the Single market.
Kirsty Blackman caused hilarity for daring to seek assurances that no part of The Great Repeal Bill will be subject to EVEL. A grinning or was it sneering TMay basically said ‘Don’t be ridiculous girl, if any of the legislation only affects England then, of course, EVEL will be applied’.
In the middle of this really rowdy section the Speaker ‘slapped down’ the SNP for the noise THEY were making ( not anyone else…) referring to them as the party, ”led by the RH gentleman on the front bench who is supposed to be a statesmanlike figure..” (cue much laughter!!!)
T May kept stumm on her concern for Spanish fishermen and used her best threatening voice to remind the SNP’s Eilidh Whitford that the Common Fisheries policy was useless..
The buzz phrase is ‘frictionless borders’ as in ‘we seek to have the best frictionless borders as possible’.
Equal partners – doesn’t look or sound like it to me.
And all through this, Fluffy nods like a wee dug on the back window of the car…
The four options have now changed so Kezia is even more out of date.
1) Indie inside EU
2) Indie outside EU
3) Indie (don’t mind EU or not)
4) In UK and leave EU
5) Don’t know/care
There is little point in asking if people want to be in the UK and EU. That cake has been eaten. Things are getting simpler.
We will win the referendum when option 1 is so clearly on offer from EU that Westminster can’t deny it.
I’d advocate a two question referendum.
1) Should Scotland be an independent country?
2) If Scotland becomes independent should it become/remain a member of the EU?
Simple really.
Wings: “I think it’s just intellectual laziness.”
Some of it, perhaps. But there’s also an unconscious attitude that union orthodoxy has no acceptable equivalent.
Once you push those journalists beyond their ‘impartial’ comfort zone, face to face, they’ll tell you exactly that in no uncertain manner. Every is measured against the ‘benefits’ of the Union. For some the benefits never alter.
As far as Massie is concerned, reading his stuff as the full horror of May’s Brexit “strategy” is revealed, he reminds me of the Hugh Laurie character in Blackadder, as Blackadder’s cunning plan slowly dawns on him.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he’s singing from the same hymnsheet as Stuart ‘Blackadder’ Campbell before long!
As for Torrance, does anyone in Scotland actually give a flying goat’s fart what that wee nyaff thinks any more?
@Meg merrilees
Link to the clown Bercow on previous thread as well as Angus Robertson asking about the loss of Scottish jobs. Attitude of the government,
Scotland get stuffed.
@gordoz says: 18 January, 2017 at 11:44 am:
“Its the collusion of comments that’s the give away, that some sort of cabal is working to save the Union.
No? It can’t be surely not?”
Whatdyamean! Surely not, Gordoz?
Haven’t I been telling you for ages that history shows there has been a form of a continuous, “Westminster Establishment”, cabal in force since time immemorial?
Note: “Time immemorial” = is used to refer to a point of time in the past that was so long ago that people have no knowledge or memory of it.
So yes there is, and always has been, a co-ordinated and biased Westminster cabal that is mirrored in Scotland by the various Unionist/Royalist factions and the Unionist owned media.
Labour, Tory and LibDems may be supposedly political rivals at Westminster but will stand, shoulder to shoulder in support of their beloved Union against anyone who dares to oppose it.
Roman Britain’s written records show that the Roman hierarchy used their individual reports back to Rome to further their own particular political careers and thus each person’s report was biased in favour of the writer of the report. These reports are still in existence today.
I see Willie Rennie’s team voted with the Tories in Holyrood on the motion to retain Scotland’s place in the single market. He might as well join UKIP. What a complete fraud. I see Labour did back the motion. 86 votes to 36 in favour.
I feel that what May has done will have pushed a few soft Yooners to independence. The tide has actually turned and Dugdale and co will have to decide if Scotland is more important to them than England. Dugdale will cry union until the last light is switched off in Scotland. She is not a heart and soul politician. She doesn’t actually believe in anything. She is an agnostic when it comes to Scotland.
She is a side show irrelevant and should not be given air time. I expect there will be a few polls coming out shortly and I expect a backlash against racist,xenophobic England. Ruth Davidson’s honeymoon is over if there ever was such a thing. Slabour might as well jump off a cliff.
The no side in the next referendum will be May and Davidson against Scotland. Slabour will be bit players sniggering from the sidelines.
History will judge people and Salmond and Sturgeon will be remembered with great affection.
Time to grasp the thistle and declare the next referendum as soon as possible. I guess Spring 2018.
Should Scotland be an Independent Country within the European Economic Area? Y/N
Posted in wrong place, it should have been here –
As per usual the BBC being selective with the clips they use of the SNP in parliament.
Angus Robertson stated that 80,000 jobs in Scotland could be lost due to Brexit and does May think this is a price worth paying, but all the BBC one news decided to show was Angus saying is this a price worth paying.
Talk about manipulation of the facts and hiding damaging information to the union, it would make you sick if you knew a fraction of how they alter and filter news in order to control us.
We really do need to get out of this nightmare union ASAP.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 18 January, 2017 at 11:59 am:
” … there simply isn’t any useful correlation between Yes/No and Remain/Leave, so conflating them is a fundamental misrepresentation of the situation.”
Indeed so, Rev Stu, and that, “fundamental misrepresentation”, is the very thing these people play upon to misreport, misdirect and downright lie to the people.
I simply do not believe they do so as innocent mistakes or pure lazyness. They do so as deliberate liars.
…In the UK and the EU is another political “squirrel”.
The Unionists relish another distraction. The more division and options the better in their playbook. These “options” will be wipped to a frenzy during Indy2. All they need is to keep division and split the vote and they will continue to hold Scotland fast.
The Indy but not EU wing/ The Loyal Orange Order / The Frightened pensioners / The Brit Nats / The Selfish (Tories) / The far left / The Greens / Orkney & Shetland / The Borders….etc,etc
They will not seek to achieve 50percent for the union…they only seek to stop us achieving 50percent for Independence.
Those who doubt that Kezia is a puppet of London should wake up with this claim on top of Federal promises (AGAIN)
Another masterclass in how hegemony works with a side-order of internal colonialism.
Get it RIGHT up them.
Talk of an EU-ref after indyref2 is rather missing the point.
The only reason for an early indyref2 is Scotland being dragged out of EU against its will. If there is an indyref2, it will be made clear that voting Yes means voting for an independent Scotland within the EU. Thus, there will be no EU-ref if indyref2 is successful.
@Gregory Beekman (1:37pm)
Unfortunately, what you’re doing is omitting the people who want out of the European Union but are prepared to vote for Scottish independence. The EU vote ensures that the yes camp gets their support in the first place, while no EU vote forces them to choose the lesser of two evils and effectively splits it.
@Broch Landers
It is internal colonialism from the brutish but the difference now as from before is the SNP are in power and also Europe will be watching, so it wouldnt be in the rapidly decaying brit-states interest to try anything funny! Equal Partners/Better Together-looks like the complete opposite to me! We have got to get out of this uk union!
Would it be advantageous to join EFTA until the break up with the rUK is finalised and also promise a vote on joining the EU at the end of that process? Would that guarantee more votes for splitting with the UK?
The reality is we now know there are only three options.
In both UK + EU is at the bottom of the ocean. Gone. Never to be seen again!
SO WHY ASK A QUESTION WITH AN IMPOSSIBLE OPTION, NOW ?
Knowing a certain percentage of people would prefer that is of complete irrevance to where we go.
EASILY RESOLVED!
You ask people to give a second choice!
1 Indy and EU 32%
2 Indy no EU 11%
3 UK and EU 28%
4 UK no Indy 24%
For simplicity we might assume 1 & 4 are stable.
It’s how 2 and 3 split that matters. What is their SECOND CHOICE?
Just for fun, if they split evenly to 1 & 4 that gives …
Indy + EU 32+14+5.5% = 53.5%
UK + no EU 24+14+5.5 = 43.5%
🙂
One_Scot said at 1:25pm::
“……..As per usual the BBC being selective with the clips they use of the SNP in parliament.
Angus Robertson stated that 80,000 jobs in Scotland could be lost due to Brexit and does May think this is a price worth paying, but all the BBC one news decided to show was Angus saying is this a price worth paying….”
The exchange between the PM and Angus Robertson MP Leader of the SNP Group at Westminster can be viewed here by going directly to the UKOK House of Commons Parliament TV link.
Just scroll to 12:14:26 on the scroll on right of page and click. 🙂
http://tinyurl.com/j973nk6
Gregory Beekman @1.37
You have a strange interpretation of democracy.
You farcically argue that when we vote for Self Determination, then the citizens of Free Scotland will be forbidden to vote for a party proposing leaving the EU in any subsequent SGE?
Divide and conquer pish.
I refer to my earlier post. I may have a dry roll and bacon today, but it doesn’t stop me having a buttered roll and bacon tomorrow.
You are a yoon: voting for Independence means that you are voting to stay within the EU..forever?
Idiotic Little Britain nonsense of course. No cigar for you either, sir, or ,madam, or Blair, John,or whoever you are.
@me
Can’t add!
Indy + EU 32+14+5.5% = 51.5%
Supreme court ruling to be given on 24th
@Gregory Beekman:
I think there is something in what you say.
Maybe at the first elections after any Yes vote, one party (Scot Tories or somesuch) might campaign for a vote on the EU and that would be pretty democratic. That would negate the need to be saying anything about it prior to any second indyref. If there’s support for it, there’d be one anyway.
We perhaps don’t want to be telling potential Yessers who voted Remain that there will definitely be a Scottish EU ref, but such people would also have to accept that if some party offered one in a manifesto after indy and won, it’d be only right to hold one.
The SNP requested months ago members views on the EU vote , those who voted out and those who voted to remain were asked their reasons , i voted out reason being TTIP and the farcical secrecy surrounding the negotiations , however once the remain vote was carried i went along with the majority and accepted the result and respect the majority view , this result in no way changes my support for Independence , and i believe the people at the top of the SNP have a good idea of peoples different reasons for a leave vote and will act accordingly , on this i trust their judgement although i disagreed with their recommendation to vote to remain .
What’s needing hammered home (if Corbyn has half a brain he’ll jump on it too) is what, and who TM actually threatened yesterday if…
Putting to the electorate what a low cost, de-regulated tax haven UK would mean for them, must be worth more than a couple of % points.
I was interested to read the UK government deficit (or net borrowing) decreased by £19.1 billion to £76.3 billion (equivalent to 4.0% GDP) in the financial ending March 2016, compared with the previous financial year.
So this is what you can do if you have all the financial levers at your disposal.
If only we could reduce the amount incorrectly accrued to us, but no, some one has our credit card and will spend at will.
I think basically the no voters didn’t much like the E.U, and immigration will be a factor in their minds. I think galamcennalath is correct, my hunch is that we are at 49% ~ 52% for yes, this can only get stronger as time progresses.
Now begins the waiting game
Graun sticks the UKOK boot in. It really is day 1 of ref 2.
http://archive.is/hK7KG
Nic Sturgeon is bad and
“In the meantime, Scotland’s first minister appears to have run out of words and threats. She said she wasn’t bluffing, but now her bluff has been called, so she has to name a date for another independence referendum and/or reveal details on what an independent Scotland in Europe would look like.”
Whoever Graun’s author is, that is one vicious yoon in action.
Also, Teresa’s tartan outfit yesterday had nothing to do with them losing their grip of Scotland,
“What does it mean that May has adopted the tropes of punk rock in order to make Britain Isolationist Again? The semiotic overtones between punk and May’s agenda couldn’t be further apart. Firstly, the suit cost £1,190.”
“Second, the suit’s repetition is delivering a subliminal visual message: May’s role in carrying out the mandate of the referendum to see Brexit through to the bitter end, has not and will not change.”
England is an odd land.
Ha, this article read my mind, I’d been chewing this over too. This middle ground that SLAB are pushing is (as Wings says) a venn diagram absurdity. Pro-UK voters ? SLAB are bleeding those people to Ruth and the Tories. Pro-EU ? Even although full-EU membership is vanishingly likely at this stage, the most obviously Pro-EU parties are the SNP, Greens, LibDems (well in England anyway) and the SSP (I think). SLAB want to believe they’re Pro-EU so we’ll grant them that delusion. Colour-code that Venn diagram with political affiliation and try to find the Pro-UK and Pro-Eu voters and you’re left with at best something that most closely resembles SLABS current mid-teens vote share. Absolutely NOT a majority, and really it just leaves them talking to their steadily dwindling core vote. There’s nothing in their fantasised middle-ground that acts as an attractant from the existing constitutional fault lines. The whole thing is a nonsense and intellectual laziness as Stu puts it.
Looks like Boris is treading the s**t again. Harping on about “punishment beating” cos nobody loves us and our honest wishes.
http://archive.is/dKIYD
The fact of the matter is, the UK already has the best trade deal it will ever get from the EU. It’s a member with all and every advantage that the trading block can get for its members. It’s not perfect but damm good.
When London tries to negotiate a new deal later it will always be inferior to that which the members enjoy, you don’t leave, stop paying and expect to get the same advantages for nothing.
What’s more, the EU will make sure that any trading partners realise they are dealing with the srong EU market of 450 mill and maybe they would prefer to think a bit more closely about trade with 50 mill and their strange rulers in London.
Rancid old Graun’s grave yard Scotland section,
18 January 2017
Weather
Big freeze in England sees temperatures drop to -6.5C
The closer we get to actually shaking these idiots for good, the harder they troll.
O/T – sorry
LOVE this one..
The Council has decided that the Christmas tree in Fort William will not come down for the time being because a pigeon is nesting in it.
When asked, the spokesman said: ‘Who knows, by next year there might be 4 Calling-birds, 3 French hens, two Turtle doves and a Partridge in our Christmas tree.”
Agree that Alex Massie is usually smarter than this. He is also usually fairer. Must be the Ruth Davidson effect now that she has taken Cheezie’s place as chief numpty at FMQ. She used to be smarter too. Must be desperation at being fooled by their own propaganda.
The closer we get to actually shaking these OFF idiots for good, the harder they troll.
When terms of IndyRef2 are negotiated then the SG absolutely must nail the terms, ensuring that SCOOT MEANS SCOOT and that there will be a fixed term of negotiating the divorce terms with an irrevocable independence date set. The agreement must be water-tight.
Let’s not kid ourselves – WM will already be anticipating a YES to IndyRef2 and devising plans to forestall Scotland’s actual exit from the UK or to even reverse that decision. They will be burning the candle at both ends to figure out ways to frustrate Scotland’s democratic will.
Because we know that they know that England simply cannot exist as a viable country independent of Scotland’s tremendous wealth in people and natural resources. Were it not for Scotland’s fabulous wealth coming ashore in the mid-70’s, the UK would STILL be reliant on IMF support to this day (as it was in the 70s).
@Robert Graham says: 18 January, 2017 at 12:28 pm:
” … Also the esteemed English speaker chose to censure Angus Robertson for questioning a answer while allowing a baying Tory mob to constantly to interrupt his second question , why the f/ck do we bother sending our MPs to the English Parliament it is a total bloody farce .”
You hit a nail on the head there, Robert, when you correctly identified the Westminster Establishment as, “The English Parliament.”
I cannot understand why the people of both the Kingdoms of Scotland and England cannot clearly see that there is in fact no actual existing United Kingdom at Westminster.
There has not been one since 1707 but it was not so clearly defined as what it really was until devolved administrations were created by Westminster.
This is now openly stated by Westminster – yet the electorate seem totally oblivious to the plain truth.
Westminster is now actually the de facto parliament of only the country of England and Westminster has openly defined it as such and these facts cannot be disputed.
There is a Westminster commissioned paper that openly makes the claim that the Treaty of Union of 1707 extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom. The Treaty does nothing of the sort and the claim is entirely based upon one perception and one perception only.
This perception can only be based upon the fact that the new Union’s Parliament took up residence in the building that previously housed the Parliament of the Kingdom of England in the Palace of Westminster.
While it did sit within that edifice that did not make it a continuation of the Parliament of the Kingdom of England for that parliament is recorded as having sat and wound itself up. Yet Westminster has always thought of itself as the Parliament of England re-branded as the United Kingdom.
Furthermore that old edifice burned to the ground and was rebuilt as a purpose built parliament with funding of the Entire United Kingdom’s two kingdoms, (that new United Kingdom contained four Countries but was not a union of Countries).
There is no recorded evidence that the United Kingdom Parliament was a continuing old Parliament of England.
Then came devolution and what was obvious to politically minded Scots became, we thought, glaringly obvious.
Westminster decided NOT to devolve powers on the lines of the actual two component parts of the United Kingdom but along the lines of the four countries that those two kingdoms contained between them. Not only that but Westminster retained itself as the Parliament of only the country of England. Thus they devolved the Parliament of the country of England’s assumed powers unequally to the three other countries. That meant the actual United Kingdom had ceased to be an actual bipartite united kingdom.
So now we have the Parliament of the country of England assuming over-lordship of Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.
It legislates directly for the Country of England under English law. It funds only the country of England directly as the United Kingdom with United Kingdom finding and it decides the level of Block grants that the Country of England will allow the other countries to have.
It further regulates the Block Grants of its underling countries in relation to the Country of England’s funding by Barnett Consequentials and now it wants to drag the only legal kingdom partner in the actual union out of the EU against its will.
Not to mention it has instigated EVEL – English Votes for English Law and has barred all others from interfering in what it alone decides are English Only matters.
Yet for some unknown reason the Scots, Welsh and Irish people are blind to the truth that England has assumed over-lordship of them.
To my mind this is far more reason to end this farcical Westminster set-up than the even more idiotic Brexit. For whatever else Britain will NOT be exiting the EU for Britain is not the Member State of the EU. Only the United Kingdom of Britain is attempting to exit and as that is the de facto Parliament of England it is England that will be taking England’s three underling dominions out of the EU.
If the Supreme Court rule that the devolved assemblies must have a say on Brexit, with the NI assembly being suspended what happens?
@Phil Robertson says: 18 January, 2017 at 12:33 pm:
“If you want an interesting topic, it is how does the SNP sell EU membership to the 11% in the out of UK and EU contingent.”
Nah! Phil, your abject unionist bias dictates that you would not recognise an interesting topic if it bit yer bum.
Well said Mr Peffers.
I cannot understand why we would have any kind of referendum to remove our country from England’s grasp. Equal partners in Union. One country is not above the other.
Lenny Hartley:
Surely it depends when the ‘say’ must be granted? If it’s at end of two years, the NI situation may have changed by then.
Even if it’s before Art 50 is triggered, isn’t the NI election on 2 March? The situation is so fluid at moment it’s hard to say what will happen.
There was talk in the steamie Lenny about NI having their elections done and dusted on 2nd March, think that’s been agreed, therefore new parliament there will be in place before A50 triggered.
Jumping ship time. If there’s any City left in teamGB by say 2020, its going to be Flipper Darling at Chase Morgan, or whatever bunch of spivs took that Lord in, for niceness maybe.
BBC Politics
2 mins ·
HSBC’s chief executive said he was preparing to move 1,000 staff from London to Paris.
*** BREAKING ***
Supreme Court Brexit decision due next Tuesday
Robert Peffers @ 2.41 thanks , and exactly the point made by Christine Grahame in her u/tube clip ” the last Gael or the first ” sorry cant do the link bit but its easily found .
EU, EFTA?
Pros and cons to both. I’m an internationalist and would be reasonably content with either affiliation. Neither of them, whatever their downsides, deny their members the right of self determination, or demand outright control of your political process. The choice to join or leave belongs solely to the sovereign state.
Membership or not of either isn’t why I’m voting for independence. Independence, self determination, free will, democratic choice isn’t a serving suggestion on a limited menu. It’s not negotiable, or conditional. It’s hard won and even harder to keep, because once you’ve lost, or worse, given it away’ its not just you who pays the bill. It’s every generation thereafter to whom you’ve denied the right of freedom of choice.
As a point of convenience for the current situation. We are already members of the EU with accrued rights and privileges who haven’t, as yet, left. EFTA membership would require an application process?
Dave Beveridge 12.42
Just a quick one in response to many comments where the theme is the same. You wrote: ….
“2. We were told we’re an equal partner in the “Union”.
That statement, together with the ones that suggest that Scotland is being uniquely disrespected and or sidelined (because in the Scottish constituencies there was a majority vote to Remain) miss the obvious.
As mentioned in another thread, it is possible to look at other areas/regions/nations within the UK where the vote in that area/region/nation – and find them at odds with the UK wide vote.
Until Scotland votes to leave – it is and will be part of the United Kingdom and the only thing that Westminster can do is reflect the democratic wish of the whole of the United Kingdom.
The area geographically represented as constituencies forming “London and the South East region” (some 19 million voters) – voted to remain.
As someone who did note vote to leave, the government’s path is not what I voted for. Nor did the majority of my 19 million voting neighbors in London and the South East.
This statement is really not meant to be provocative but, given that there was an indy referendum in Scotland and given the result, what, democratically speaking, would you expect the Westminster Parliament to be doing/saying with respect to the “Scottish issue”??
Is it realistically suggested that Westminster should be saying that the UK, except Scotland, will be leaving the EU – even though a majority of Scots voted to remain in the UK.
If it is genuinely felt that the majority of Scottish voters want Independence rather than being part of a Brexited UK – then have a referendum.
If you don’t think that is the case, then isn’t the only fair, democratic outcome that Scotland is not dealt with separately in our EU negotiations (nor more or less than London and the South East).???
So in answer to Mr Beveridge’s point above – Scotland is an equal partner in the UK – just like London and the South East. Your vote carries exactly equal rate to mine – but we were both outvoted by by the rest of the UK citizens (whose voting power was exactly equal to mine and yours).
I see sensibledave AKA Mr Muddle is back
Wouldn’t surprise me if Torrance ends up voting YES in the privacy of his own ballot box, and maybe even comes out for Indy.
Michael Forsyth, Conservative, ex Secretary of State for Scotland pre-devolution, in the House of Lords in 2012:
“If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom ceases to exist“.
@Dave Beveridge says: 18 January, 2017 at 12:42 pm:
“Every time an SNP representative is in front of a microphone the 2 big lies must be referenced:”
Dave, those are not the big questions. Those are the wee trees that are stopping you seeing the real wood that is the truth from you.
When Westminster decided to split up the actual two Kingdom partnership that is the actual United Kingdom, they ended the actual United Kingdom. It no longer actually exists. It’s not as if they even hid the facts from you.
It is in the paper Westminster commissioned during indyref 1. It claimed that The Treaty of Union had extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom. Fluffy Mundell then stated that on National TV.
It is in fact the truth.
The United Kingdom was the result of the Treaty of Union 1707 and it united only two Kingdoms. The so called Treaty of 1800 is not a treaty. It is an act(two acts actually), of the Westminster Parliament, for the Kingdom of Ireland had been an integral part of the Kingdom of England since 1542.
You cannot have a treaty of Union between yourself and yourself. Westminster was both sides of the 1800/1 acts and those making the agreements were the two sides in the civil war in Ireland. That is they were the republicans of the south and the unionists of the north of Ireland and both were then still under Westminster rule.
The Irish Free State was a dominion of the United Kingdom and thus not free and the North were part of the split but within 24 hours used their option to remain in the UK.
So facts – The United Kingdom still only has two kingdoms as its legal component parts. The two acts only renamed, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, as, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, but there was no new kingdom to include in the United Kingdom.
So, upon devolution Westminster left Westminster as the de facto parliament of England but instead of splitting the two kingdoms they split the four countries but kept Westminster as England’s parliament.
Then the devolved Westminster/English Parliament powers to the three other countries ignoring the fact that Scotland was the only legal partner kingdom and they now treat Scotland as if Scotland was a subservient country under English rule.
Yet in spite of them telling you that is their take on the matter you still can’t see that Westminster is no longer the parliament of a United Kingdom but the Parliament of England and you are expected to do as you are told.
So in answer to Mr Beveridge’s point above – Scotland is an equal partner in the UK – just like London and the South East.”
Nation of Scotland sensible vs an English city and some counties. Read and think about Robert Peffers well researched information sensible. You might learn something.
Although to be fair, your UKOK bleh does highlight why England is the master of Scotland, election after election, and refs too.
@ Derick fae Yell 1.23pm Exactly. I like that as a ref question. I’ve noticed Nicola has been mentioning the EU (specifically) a bit less of late. If the EU can provide us with a cast iron offer of seamless membership before we go to the polls then great, I’m sure ScotGov would be chuffed with that.
I think she knows that a solid offer from the four EFTA states will be much easier to accomplish within the given time frame. Removes the euro red herring from discussion and keeps the Yes voting leavers happy. I wonder if the recent survey gave the upper echelons of the SNP some food for thought?
Full EEA access and free movement via EFTA will start to look like paradise to the most ardent Europhile by the time TM’s Brexit reality appears on the horizon.
http://www.efta.int/faq
OT
Yay! Built myself up mentally and made a quick business phone call and instantly 100% successful. It shows how it’s important to be in the right frame of mind to do a job, and at the right time.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s senior adviser has warned that Theresa May’s proposed Brexit plan is impossible.
Ms May used a speech on Tuesday to tell international leaders that she would take the UK out of the single market, but still wanted to negotiate access to it.
Yet German politician Michael Fuchs said the Conservatives plan was “not possible” because “you can’t eat a cake without paying for it”.
The Germans sound just as unimpressed as we are!
http://archive.is/4E9oT
@galamcennalath
I like cake!
Pretty sure now the figures for inside EU and independent Scotland will be nearer 45% after May’s brexit speech.
Hopefully this analysis will have wide cover on twitter.
Once Article 50 is triggered the EU are activated as players in the negotiations, so Realpolitiks, advise the Scottish Government that Scotland has the option of being the successor state. Howls of anguish of ‘interference” from the UK government no doubt but it is in the best interests of the EU – and Scotland – that Scotland remains.
I note Trump praising the UK for Brexit, I wonder his view on the movement in California for independence? A trade deal with the USA by Brexit’d UK will be heavily to the advantage of the USA. Prospect of Juicy NHS, juicy fracking, and continued juicy Trident income.
Angus Robertson in the House of Commons: “Little Britain Brexit”
Very clever. I see people using “Little England”, or “Little Englander”, and it attracts silly comments about “anti-English” in spite of the fact the phrase was actually invented by the English, in England.
“Little Britain” or “Little Britons” perhaps, avoids the problem.
Sententious Dave: ” Scotland is and will be part of the United Kingdom and the only thing that Westminster can do is reflect the democratic wish of the whole of the United Kingdom.”
The usual provocative bollocks from a wee Englander.
Anyways.
“An independent Scotland within the EU 32%” (same). Good.
“Scotland inside both the UK and EU 28% (down from 31%). Probably the main battleground. If they all turned to Independence that would make 60% YES.
“An independent Scotland outside the EU 11%” (same). What is their priority – Independence or leaving the EU? A lot of work to be done there.
“Scotland inside the UK but outside the EU 24%” (up from 15%). Will that figure stay the same with a Hard Brexit and totally out of the single market, loss of workers rights, slave labour economy, privatised NHS in England with Scotland forced to follow because of the block grant, loss of movement in Europe (not just the EU)?
Just a thought, maybe someone better versed than I on how Europe works can say yes or no, but – as a way round this presumption that the EU cannot speak to Scotland as long as Scotland is a member of the UK.
Why doesn’t the Scottish Government seek to join the AER – the European Assembly of the Regions?
Even if Scotland’s status as one half of the bipartite United Kingdom prevents the Scottish Government from joining the AER, it surely cannot prevent the SG from obtaining “observer” status.
This would mean, that Scotland had a presence within the overall umbrella of EU organisations, and, just might come in handy when push comes to shove about membership.
I note that Kent plummeted to -7 degrees last night.
Cue Nicholas Witchell and crew covering Parka clad Charles mercy dash to Seven Oaks to stare at the frost on the village green, and May pledging £10 million in aid to ‘warm Kent’s cockles.’
The Madness that stalks these islands is infectious.
Salut! from gay Paris.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2017/01/17/opinion/1484676246_470311.html?id_externo_rsoc=FB_CC
An extremist Brexit
May jumps in to the void and gambles on a complete exit of the European Union
May says he wants a mere bilateral treaty with the EU, with zero mutual tariff. But that is the tariff already in place today, which is maintained thanks to a common external tariff (customs union) and policies that avoid market distortions, such as the defense of competition against asymmetric public aid and fraudulent tax evasion (of multinationals),
Gloves off French style. Or exact opposite of what tory BBC led media creep show rams down our throats.
I think the suggestion (Rev?) of offering another EU/EFTA referendum immediately after independence is a blinder.
Make no mistake, the yoons will be busy working out how to divide us, and they won’t take long to formulate a cunning plan, along the likes of:
An Indy Scotland in the EU will be awash with foreigners taking our jobs and terrorists intent on making Scotland an Islamic state.
We may laugh but most of us (hopefully) are not the target voters.
It would appear that messers Dugdale, Torrance and Massie are all magical thinkers. Who’d have thunk? Practitioners of partisan subjectivity are prone to historicism (the re-writing of history). Such an approach to truth seeking obstructs good judgement and rational analysis, frankly.
Cargo Cult Science
by RICHARD P. FEYNMAN
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm
First things first: an end to the disgusting union with England.
@Heedtracker
Nana posted a smattering of continental articles this morning. Needless to say they weren’t very appreciative of Ms May’s speech, its tone or implication.
When the New European is running articles like this:-
http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_problem_with_the_english_england_doesn_t_want_to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons
It’s safe to say brexit negotiations are going to prove a wee bit lumpy for UK gov. 🙄
heedtracker says:
Gloves of Spanish style, actually. 🙂 But it is hard hitting.
So now the Spanish are no more impressed with May than we are!
What caught attention in particular was that German employers claimed to have brought 400,000 jobs to the UK on the basis of the single market. With the hard Brexit which is coming, some of those will sadly but inevitably disappear.
The problem there is, what will replace them? Nothing Brexit will bring.
@Socrates MacSporran
It’s a good question, don’t know the answer! It’s not an EU one though.
“The Assembly of European Regions (AER) is the largest independent network of regions in wider Europe, gathering regions from 35 countries – from Norway to Turkey and from Russia to Portugal.
AER is present everywhere on the European continent, inside and outside the European Union.”
But Scotland does have representation on the actual EU one.
Scan down to “European Committee of the Regions (CoR)” on https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/ for a quick summary.
Sensible Dave
Scotland is not a region of the UK, it is a sovereign nation.
It has its own Parliament and makes its own laws.
Scotland voted to say, even May has said the vote in Scotland will be respected, and she would look at the proposals, what you David suggest is that she should ignore those proposals as they are irrelevant.
What I have discovered David, is that I have more affinity and love for my fellow European brothers and sisters than I do for the majority of those south of the borders who use race, class, and colour to discriminate and attack.
If you are interested in politics, and like us, want to see a better world, may I suggest you look closer to home and engage with your friends and neighbours, try and stop the right wing destruction of your own country, you and your countrymen are my neighbours and I wish you no harm, in fact I truly hope your Brexit dreams come true.
But I and my country do not wish to be no part of it because even if it is a success, you will be the more insufferable and arrogant that you are today.
Surely after Article 50 is triggered, the EU will be duty bound to advise the Scottish Government that Scotland has the option of being the successor state. We are European citizens after all, and have voted to remain so.
Sensible Dave….No one cares what you have to say away back to your merry little englandshire region. Keep your nose out of the Country of Scotlands affairs.
Macart says:
Europhobia was shown by the referendum to be a specifically English psychosis, the narcissistic outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity.
That is the best analysis I have read explaining what is happening
The huge difference in attitude between England (and Wales) versus Scotland (and NI) is at the centre of the entire constitutional crisis.
“An independent Scotland outside the EU 11%” (same). What is their priority – Independence or leaving the EU? A lot of work to be done there.”
I think a sizeable % of this particular group are like many of the Little Englander Brexiteers i.e. Johnny-Foreigner haters, here to take all our jobs and scrounge on benefits.
This group need to realise that come IndyRef2, the vast majority of those foreign nationals who voted NO last time round (through lies of BT that they’d be kicked out of an Indy Scotland) will massively vote YES next time round. (I know – I’ve spoken to loads of them and, to a man and woman, they will vote YES next time).
We absolutely NEED our foreign national friends for IndyRef2 – their vote will help you get the Indy you want for Scotland. So, 11% – pinch your nose and let Johnny-Foreigner help you.
And once we are independent, do you really want to tell Johnny-Foreigner to bugger off back home when they have helped us achieve our Indy and when they probably helped save your life or a family member’s life in our SNHS? You want to send them home when there won’t be sufficiently trained numbers here to replace them? Really?
And when you approach retirement, where are the taxes going to come from to pay your pension when the pensioner numbers in Scotland are rising and the working population is falling? Scotland NEEDS to encourage people from other countries to come and work here to ensure you get your pension.
Those are just some of the facts much of that 11% really need to get into their heads.
Macart says:
18 January, 2017 at 4:29 pm
@Heedtracker
That’s an interesting thing about post imperialism. I hate generalising about people though, anywhere. From every one rule Britannia roaster out there, sensibledave, there’s dozens more that really do want to be same citizens as us and loath Westminster as much as the next progressive liberal.
A lot of its all down to UK media shite, telling them they’re the greatest and bestest in the whole world, won WW2, defeated Hitler, royals are gods, everyone everywhere is English BBC style, socialism for the rich is good…then they go and get their arses kicked by Iceland, that’s football.
@Soutron 3.33
That’s the way I see it.Spot on..The SNP knew they had to nail the EU membership pish and blindside the Unionistas.Open goal time.
Re: the fishing industry. Scottish Fishermen were, reportedly, very pro-Brexit, blaming the common fisheries policy for their woes. They may be less than amused to hear that, as mentioned by the Mayhem, post-Brexit they will be sold up the river without a cod-end, so to speak. It may be worth whispering in their shell-likes that an independent Scotland. but within EFTA. would* have control of fisheries.
*Though historic rights, such as the Dutch, French, Spanish etc. will claim, may be a bargaining chip.
O/T
Boris the ‘statesman’ strikes again
http://www.france24.com/en/20170118-brexit-uk-johnson-warns-france-ww2-punishment-beatings?ref=tw_i
@ Proud Cybernat says: “I think a sizeable % of this particular group are like many of the Little Englander Brexiteers i.e. Johnny-Foreigner haters, here to take all our jobs and scrounge on benefits.”
Ah right, I had to read that twice to see what you’re saying. i.e that that is their mindset. Yes, I’ve seen postings from them, and it seems they’ve gone for the Express EU-hating lines. It’s one of the reasons, the main reason, I set up that wordpress blog of mine I put up a link to in my reply to Socrates. There’s massive lack of knowledge of how the EU works, and one part of my answer to my own question is – supply information to counter the likes of the incrediby xenophobic Express.
@brewsed
Statement from Eilidh Whiteford
https://www.dreilidhwhiteford.com/single-post/2017/01/18/May-let-the-cat-out-of-the-bag-on-fishing-negotiations—Whiteford
Grouse Beater 4:03 pm
You wrote “The usual provocative bollocks from a wee Englander.”
Firstly, I bet I am bigger than you haha (as a point of fact actually, I know I am)!
More to though Grousey me old china, which part (i.e. which fact) do you find provocative? Or is it just democracy that is provocative?
Why is it that my wishes are not carried in a referendum and I move on and try to make the best of it, rather than being a remoaner – whereas you just want to dismiss and ridicule the other side (although I am not on the other side – unless by virtue of my place of birth I am on the other side whether I like it or not?)
Neo-liberalism is incapable of creating an open society as it is, itself, authoritarian in nature and employs authoritarian methods of achieving social transformation. The UK’s Establishment are inherently neo-liberal in outlook. It’s a utilitarian thing.
http://www.freecontentweb.com/content/introduction-social-science-traditional-versus-modern-societies
@Heedtracker
I don’t doubt it for a second Heed. Best help we can be for those folks is to succeed in our own efforts. Demonstrate their is a different and a better way.
The Treaty of Union guaranteed that both Kingdoms would have equal representation. Over the centuries since this has changed to reflect size of population rather than the wishes of the population of each country. In effect only England can have its cake and eat it at the expense of everyone else.
Therefore both the spirit and actual functioning of the Treaty are no longer of value, or are indeed correct.
Time we went our own way.
our european friends say:
In France Today: On London’s financial passport being lost.
“The English always wanted a Europe à la carte, where they could choose which agreements they signed or not. They keep the pound, no Schengen zone, and so on. Finally, they left us! And the City loses its advantage !!! As the English say and the same: Fuck Yeah!”
And
“And always the funniest thing in history is to hear them say that if they do not get a good deal they will not do it and say that suddenly the EU will suffer The most: chiche !!! What a big bluff, it’s so big that even a child would laugh …”
Westminsters man in Scotland and we pay for his constant put down plus
180 staff seconded from other UK Govt departments (mostly MoJ) Constant anti-Scottish spin A massive expenses bill All invoiced to Scotland
bbcgms this morning
https://twitter.com/DavidLivey/status/821711671211290624
and this
https://twitter.com/ChristinaSNP/status/821712241552752640
Britnat arrogance and ignorance towards Scotland is now being directed at the EU as well. Britnat Westminster can’t help but make enemies; Scotland makes friends.
Some folk have commented on my earlier post.
Let me be clear: I’m NOT saying that in an independent Scotand that a party can’t stand on a manifesto committment to hold an EU ref. Of course, if the people want one, they can have one.
What I am saying is look at the current political situation. The only reason we might get an indyref2 in 2019 is purely because of Brexit. If there was no Brexit, there’d be no indyref2 in this Scottish parliamentary term. The SNP manifesto says so.
So if being dragged out of Europe against our will is the reason for indyref2, it’d be rather silly for Nicola to then hold another EU ref given that the fact Scotland voted to Remain is the reason for indyref2!
And for those Yessers that voted Leave – well, I’m sorry but more Scots voted Remain. If there was another EU ref for Scotland shortly after indyref2, I imagine the result would be largely the same, ie Scotland would vote Remain again. So I think you’re going to have to choose which Union you despise least – the UK or the EU.
The EU is not perfect but it’s better than being in the UK.
Nana says:
it was interesting in your link that a promoted article was from the express, I looked at it, apart from the sexist lunatic ravings of the worst in humanity we have this statement “As the master race we have a duty” another poster agreed that “as the master race”
I think if this is the state of debate in England then that explains Sensible Dave’s reluctance to communicate with his fellow countrymen, instead he hangs out here, where he least will have a sensible debate. (that explains his name)
And Wings over Scotland is supposed to be vile? In the English Express today was a poster threatening to use explosive to blow up the Westminster parliament, no kidding!
Absolutely deranged, mad, bad and certifiable, we need to get out of this union fast, that lot down south are one psychotic episode away from total insanity.
Good to know that you have a poll planned. Information is like gold dust and like last time it will be taken to be professional and kosher by John Curtice.
I too think you need to narrow the options to exclude EU/UK membership. If you can devise some way of teasing out the second preference choices of both the Yes/Leave people and the No/Remain people that might begin to clarify things.
I also think that Nicola can’t wait too long before calling an Indyref 2. We can’t allow things to go off the boil, only to try and resurrect the campaign in 2018. As soon as A50 is triggered and rebuffs become order of the day in the negotiations, we need to strike.
At the same time we need to call in the favours we need from the Irish, the Belgians, the Swedes, Norwegians and even dare I say it people like Ken Clarke and Anna Soubry, who are such ardent Europhiles and democrats that they are bound to sympathise with Scotland’s iniquitous position.
@brewsed
Not sure where I read it but there is an international body that governs fishing – EU currently works with them.
Not likely that being out of the EU, UK fishermen will get much back – and that assumes WM bothers to try.
Heard a rumour.. that the Tories just need to deflect SNP/independence progress until the UK LEAVES THE EU.
After that THEY WILL ABOLISH DEVOLUTION IN THEIR ‘INDEPENDENT ENGLISH REGIONS.
Some high ranking conservatives have so much to loose personally (from loosing access to their Scottish assets) that their privileged lifestyle is under threat
It was a guy in the pub, but I’d trust a random stranger before a known Tory ANY DAY.
Strange that Alex Massie should quote Orwell….here’s the full quote.
” Still, it is a family. It has its private language and its common memories, and at the approach of an enemy it closes its ranks. A family with the wrong members in control – that, perhaps is as near as one can come to describing England in a phrase.”
Note ENGLAND……not the UK………and not Scotland.
@The Isolator It’s the most elegant solution as far as I can see. The fishermen would go for it too.
There’s probably nothing to stop Scotland joining the Nordic council as an observer in the meantime. The German state of Schleswig-Holstein did so last year.
Macart says:
18 January, 2017 at 4:58 pm
@Heedtracker
Main threat to the UK socio economic domination of and by our honest and noble elite is Scotland and now Brexit. Wealth share in England flows mainly through property values but that’s it really. Everything else is owned by the super rich as we all know and a lot of that is public sector spends and borrowing.
Thus the hysterical tory BBC led backing for Brexit Britain. If Brexit does start to make middle England worse off, and this is exactly why they begged to join the EU in the first place, there’s going to be a whole lot of changes on the way. All because Cameron’s tories thought an EU ref would keep them in power.
The point of my earlier OT post about business by the way I forgot to make was “Seize the moment”.
Talking of which, being in an incredibly good mood, I’m having a bit of fun in the Express, with the “Little Briton” line, and a reverse takeover by the Scottish Parliament as after successive Indy Refs and more pwoers devolved each time, Scotland actually ends up with having reserved powers over the rest of the UK and Holyrood becomes the UK Parliament. Well, saves all that renovation work.
Possibly a little provocative …
little englanders and their unshakeable belief in their God given greatness,
the Italians (Roman) came and conquered VENI VIDI VICI,
the Germans (Angles,Saxons,Jutes) came and conquered
the Danish,Norwegian,(Viking) came and conquered
the French (Normans) came and conquered
the Spanish would have if the worse storm in a 100 years had not destroyed their fleet,
you would think they would be more open to their European brothers and sisters.
@Andrew McLean
The problem is, the city always wins and UK gov will be bending over backwards to accommodate the banks etc. You just need to look at the revolving door between Westminster and the city.
its incredible that the so called (arthritic) backbone of the UK economy is made up of companies which can print money at will and use it to destroy wealth. This is what has been going on for the last 40 years with the banking sector. Most of this money has been used to inflate the price of assets (mostly houses) leaving people with little money’s to spend into the economy and create jobs.
Banking is an economic overhead yet formed the centrepiece of the U.K rentier economy. It’s a massive drag on GDP and If that isn’t enough we are all holding the tab for the £5 trillion in bank IOUs that are out there.
I’d say the banks will be foremost in govt negotiations.
What is the best answer to counter the unionist claim of England being Scotlands biggest export market?
I don’t believe the claim to be accurate but if Scotland is in the EU or EFTA say, is it even possible for us to keep that trade flowing unhindered?
O/T
TODAY AT SCOTTISH QUESTIONS MUNDELL CAN BE CLEARLY HEARD SAYING
“I DONT CARE”
WHEN ASKED ABOUT 80,000 JOB LOSSES!
Listen here
https://twitter.com/SoarAlba59/status/821774077987876864
@sensibledave
‘Why is it that my wishes are not carried in a referendum’
Because David you are only an individual,not a nation or Kingdom in this Union of Kingdoms,which Scotland happens to be.
What you or I as individuals may or may not have voted in the referendum is of no real consequence.
As you well know Nicola Sturgeon is not trying overturn the UK decision, merely to try mitigate the effects of your countrymens vote on Scotland.
I think the suggestion (Rev?) of offering another EU/EFTA referendum immediately after independence is a blinder.
I think the rev suggested having an euref2 in the 2nd half of the 1st independent scottish holyrood session. I agree with this as it would help kick the eu question into the long grass until after indyref2
I think the present compromise put forward by the SNP for scotland to become part of the EFTA/EEA group (Norway type arrangement) is an excellent idea and this is the position that the SNP should adopt as their goal during indyref2 as a “holding pen” option until after we leave the uk
It would appeal to the largest number of voters, it was an option suggested by many brexiteers, including the fishermen, and the promise of an euref2 (no leave option or confirmation of our EFTA/EEA position would be required) only options for further integration into the eu, would appeal to very pro eu voters
i dont think we need a referendu to confirm i
Col says:
18 January, 2017 at 6:01 pm
What is the best answer to counter the unionist claim of England being Scotlands biggest export market?
I don’t believe the claim to be accurate but if Scotland is in the EU or EFTA say, is it even possible for us to keep that trade flowing unhindered?
———————
EFTA/EEA option, WM can block scottish goods but will be blocking all eu goods at the same time
European Economic Area, would require all 27 countries to agree scotland to join this group
EFTA requires the 4 existing EFTA countries to agree
Nana, it would be useful if there was a time provided… There is over 11 hours to listen through on that video.
Ah the bearded twats have spoken, I can sleep easy knowing that Massie looks like he got some Scrabble for his Christmas. I wonder if he knows what panhypogammaglobulinaemia means ?
No Scrabble for me, just Alphabetti spaghetti.
Buckity fank wuckits.
bjsalba
Not likely that being out of the EU, UK fishermen will get much back – and that assumes WM bothers to try.
scotland as part of the EFTA/EEA group could cut a deal with norway and exclude all eu fishing fleets and the ruk fishing fleets
EFTA/EEA countries retain control over agriculture and fisheries policy
I am sure, Bruce, our very own Grumpy Scottish man will not mind me saying that like him I would prefer that we should use wording similar to our (ahem) friends in the South are fond of using as the question in the Referendum. Should Scotland become a sovereign nation once more?
As Scotland never surrendered, her sovereignty there is no reason why she cannot resume it, I assume?
@Brian McHugh
Sorry, which video
That New European article Macart mentioned and linked to by Nana, K1 and Cherry is a rasper and captures the Strange Exceptionalism at the heart of English xenophobia. It also includes this marvellous German expression:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergangenheitsbew%C3%A4ltigung
This is not a concept understood by the Empire Loyalist Brigade, of course.
Insensate Dave @4.57: “Firstly, I bet I am bigger than you haha (as a point of fact actually, I know I am)!”
Ooh, Grouse Beater, you may have a stalker. I would close those blinds if I were you…
Sententious Dave: “Or is it just democracy that is provocative?”
Yet more provocative bollocks from a wee Englander.
Meant to add in the German context: http://archive.is/WmT0z
The price of whistleblowing?
WOS archive links now over on O/T.
Nana
I am watching Scottish ministerial questions and it is disgraceful of course. You have Anderson, the labour shadow complaining that the Scottish Parliament won’t “use the powers” (ie increase tax) and the tories braying that Scotland is going to become the highest taxed part of the UK. There seems to be support for both propositions from labour and the tories. The whole thing is idiotic.
It gets worse- about 11.52 Stuart MacDonald SNP makes a strong point about the contribution to the economy of the 180,000 EU nationals living in Scotland. He also gives examples of other countries where different immigration policies exist in different areas and then asks if Fluffy will give a fair hearing to proposals for Scotland to have a different immigration policy. Fluffy dismisses this and then at his next appearance at the dispatch box berates the level of immigration in Scotland as being below the UK average.
Have I slipped into a parallel dimension? Has someone put something hallucinogenic in my tea? Just yesterday I could swear that Theresa May confirmed that we are leaving the single market with the principle goal of slashing EU immigration. Fast forward 24 hours and this dickhead is telling us the Scottish Government needs to do more to increase immigration and attract more people to move up here!
The financial passport will have to be maintained at all costs, if that is Scottish fishing, then it will be surrendered in a heartbeat, if its allowing eu imports of food without barriers then it will be so, already the car industry has been told it will be protected.
Make no mistake, London must be protected, England’s survival depends on it. American investment depends on it.
What is expendable is Scotland, what is expendable is Scottish and English jobs, that will be lost as cheap India imports destroy local manufacturing, no need to meet tough EU rules.
This is a government for millionaires and the aristocracy, run by milionaires and the aristocracy, and who could not give a dam about ordinary working people, especially when those people lose their jobs, because then they will be benefit scroungers and can be safely demonised by the rabid right wing fascist press like hurray for the black shirts, daily mail, and the gutter dwelling express.
England, you have been conned, suck up the pain, look another millionaire, tax don’t be daft it’s all offshore, but fall behind in your rent and we will send in the bailiffs, with a film crew so we can all laugh at the poor suckers, one day the sucker will be you.
I note an arse has come on to the thread speaking through his hole.
Brian McHugh: If its Mundily saying “I don’t care!” its actually when the first MP is asking him about the 80,000 jobs. You can hear him say it. Then he gives reply to the question..
What is the point of having a Secretary of State for Scotland?
Ah! obviously his job is to tell us what the Conservative Government has decided is going to happen to us…
Listen to this cringing interview of David Mundell by Gary Robertson on GMS this a.m.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b087tqdj#play
starts 1 hr 34 minutes in: –
When asked if he has been arguing Scotland’s position in Cabinet Brexit meetings he said NO- because Scotland is part of the UK and the UK voted to Leave.
Mundell has not seen evidence that would persuade him that there is a need for a Scotland specific solution either for market access or in relation to matters around immigration.
Is this a threat to get rid of Holyrood??? 1 hr 42 minutes in:-
this will be “.. a significant change for the Scottish Parliament because devolution was predicated on membership of the EU; we won’t be in the EU and therefore that will bring change with it.. “
Total support for independence is 43% in both polls.
Excluding don’t knows, it has gone down from 48% to 45%.
The “independence supporting” The National has not helped at all because as I have been saying for long, it is only milking gullible independence supporters to fund the increasing poison of The Herald.
While WOS exposes the lies of the unionists day in and day out, The National plays a balancing game to keep on milking.
Nicola has been flogging a dead horse since the Brexit result.
There is a ZERO chance of any special deal for Scotland.
We have wasted seven months pretending that there could be a special deal.
If the twats in the Supreme Court delay Brexit, and blame the Scots for it, it will only be for the benefit of the Establishment, not because of Scotland’s pretendy “sovereignty”.
Tam,
It’s simple, you see Europeans are the wrong type of immigrants, to well used to having rights and good pay, the immigration after Brexit will be the correct type, despite poor people who can be used and abused, they will have special status, let’s call it permanent indentured employee, who can only sleep in company accommodation, shop in company stores, wear a special mark, in case they get lost. And if they die, we will burn them and make their remains into innovative food to feed them with.
See simple.
First sensibledave appears, then Rock.
David McEwan-Hill at 12.53
I am pleased to note that a kindred spirit responded in like fashion to 38 degrees (an organisation I normally support). How they can possibly compare our relatively minor travel woes with those down south, beggars belief.
From the Herald: “Airdrie Savings Bank to close after almost 182 years with loss of 70 jobs”
Sad news.
This week I again noticed an old bloke hide a national, so I went over to the security guard as told him I fought he was shoplifting, I noticed he was looking over so I deliberately pointed at him. He turned on his heels and scurried away, chased by the guard who now thought he was a shoplifter.
I left.
Tesco Dundee.
So today before seeing the misreporting BBC van that did not park in Maygate but the street leading to it, I popped into Tesco and had a chat with security, I told him I saw someone hiding a newspaper under other titles, he said “yes we have heard, we are to take names and escort the person out as it’s classified as a financial offence” and “we are to pass their details on to our claims people”so as I understand it isn’t but it looks like there is a cabal of independence haters who wish to harm any independence supporting newspaper.
One thing confuses me, who on earth are the claims people?
@yesindyref2
Not just Airdrie Savings
http://archive.is/udyGD
@schrodingers cat
This is 4 years old, but I think it mostly still applies.
From snippets I have picked up it is a continuous process with constant monitoring of stocks.
http://www.thejournal.ie/eu-norway-fisheries-agreement-759735-Jan2013/
I believe Norway has a similar arrangement with Russia.
As ever, these international agreements can never be described in a simple one sentence way. Always a matter of give and take.
@bjsalba 17.25
The body dealing with fishing mentioned is the International Council for the Exploration of the Seas based in Denmark (ices.dk) who, for fisheries in European waters, coordinate the scientific data and prepare guidance for the politicians. The ICES data and advice is prepared by the scientific community with, for example, data and scientists from the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen and DEFRA Lowestoft.
But it is the politicians who make the decisions and Scotland has no part in the process, Ms Weirdsome’s department leading for the UK. Because fish do not respect international boundaries continued interaction with other fishing nations will be necessary – it would be nice if Scotland, which has most of the UK fish, could speak for Scotland.
It has been a busy day on the Internet. Some links from my readings.
Sturgeon: Hard Brexit plans push Scots toward independence
http://www.politico.eu/article/hard-brexit-push-scots-to-independence-nicola-sturgeon/
To win a Scottish indyref2, Yes side must learn lessons of Brexit victory
https://theconversation.com/to-win-a-scottish-indyref2-yes-side-must-learn-lessons-of-brexit-victory-71446
Rock
I’m not arguing whether you a correct or not, simply pointing out that it is your perception that seven moths have been wasted. Others will see it differently, especially those whose loyalties are being tested. I would imagine they might be grateful that at least one of the party leaders is acting like a grown up.
Meg merrilees @ 7.28
Mr Mundell cannot argue Scotland’s position in Cabinet when Brexit is discussed because he is not included in the group of cabinet ministers dealing with Brexit. This has been the position since Mrs May took over as PM and put her Brexit group together. And he went along with that exclusion. Tells you all you need to know about him and about the PM’s attitude to Scotland.
moths = months
Abstract hypothetical question…
If Scotland lost Indyref2, could Yes voters impeach No voters for advocating the abdication of Scotland’s sovereign birthright contrary to the constitutional laws of Scotland?
I’ll be honest with you, after all the propaganda, illicit shenanigans and irregularities of 2014, not to mention flagrant violation of Purdah, and equally flagrant distortion of the truth, leaving our fate to a referendum in the UK tradition fills me with dread. They have conned us once already, and smugly rammed it down our throats ever since.
Our sovereignty exists or it doesn’t, and that is a binary option unalterable by democratic opinion, so why are we leaving the issue hostage to electoral arbitration?
yesindyref2
Aye I heard this about the Airdrie Savings Bank, sad day, I hoped to maybe use this bank in the future as I could see the appeal and sense of it.
Pissed off with the “City Sharks” who treat us like Sh*t and thought about putting money into the “Airdrie”, living in the highlands was a problem though, the missus and I don’t do internet banking bollocks.
An Independent Scotland with an Independent Bank!! there’s one for the founding fathers&mothers of Scottish Independence.
Tinto Cheil: “I bet I am bigger than you haha (as a point of fact actually, I know I am)!” Ooh, Grouse Beater, you may have a stalker.”
Oh lucky me! Sententious Dave is fat, with teeth he keeps in a jam jar – very convenient. I’m just over 6 feet tall, in old money, broad shouldered, and can strangle a swan with one hand tied behind my back. For all the bullshit of supposedly hiding being a moniker there’s a pic of me here in LA hanging over a troublesome paparazzi:
http://wp.me/p4fd9j-5BJ
Yesindyref2: “First sensibledave appears then Rock.”
I mentioned that recurring coincidence the other day.
Gregory Beekman at 1.37pm
No EU referendum after an Indy Referendum.
Unless the Scottish people determine otherwise, in due course?
@brewsed
As you say, it is the Loathsome Leadsom that makes the decisions, whether we are in the EU or out.
You know this, I know this.
How come the fishing boat owner that lives in my town does not. He still firmly believes that getting out of the EU will change everything?
Tam Jardine
There are 16M people in England who voted to stay in the EU, we could invite 2 or 300,000 to come here and vote for Independence.
Meg @ 7:28
Wrt Holyroods existance and Mundell’s hint that things would change after exit.
When Article 50 is enacted by the UK government, it might be time for the Scottish Government to declare to the EU that the UK is a union of 2 equal KingdomS, and that the people of one of these Kingdoms voted to remain in the EU.
Breeks
We certainly need independent arbiters from Europe to monitor the vote that is a given. No more british-state interference!
Two issues were crystallised yesterday and an autonomous Scotland will certainly embrace a brighter future for current and subsequent generations.
The PMs epic speech
‘It’s why we will put the preservation of our precious Union at the heart of everything we do. Because it is only by coming together as one great union of nations and people that we can make the most of the opportunities ahead’
The speech writer borrowed repetitive metaphoric phrases from Major, Blair whose speeches talked of Britain at the ‘heart of Europe’. Presumably after this Brexit heart attack the new beating heart is at WM. Scotland has unclogged its arteries and is having a heart bypass from WM.
And this yesterday;
‘Why as we continue to bring the deficit down, we will take a balanced approach by investing in our economic infrastructure – because it can transform the growth potential of our economy, and improve the quality of people’s lives across the whole country’
(Isn’t that cut and pasted from Osborne’s 2010 budget?
‘Our policy is to raise from the ruins of an economy built on debt a new ,balanced economy where we save invest and export …where all industries grow…An economy where prosperity is shared among all sections of society and all parts of the country’)
The current WM cabal were given quite a lot of time to sort out the economy- the EU is a rather convenient smokescreen for their economic failings.
‘You will still be welcome in this country as we hope our citizens will be welcome in yours. At a time when together we face a serious threat from our enemies, Britain’s unique intelligence capabilities will continue to help to keep people in Europe safe from terrorism’
A rather odd conceptual link- between the ‘you’ that media whipped up immigration hysteria about and a seamless connection to terrorism.
And a large dose of hypocrisy and ‘politics is war’ metaphor repeated in case the vanquished forget what a well-fought, informative and inclusive EU campaign looks like,
‘But one of the reasons that Britain’s democracy has been such a success for so many years is that the strength of our identity as one nation, the respect we show to one another as fellow citizens… The victors have the responsibility to act magnanimously. The losers have the responsibility to respect the legitimacy of the outcome’
So where to next?
‘And they did so with their eyes open: accepting that the road ahead will be uncertain at times, but believing that it leads towards a brighter future for their children’
Ah- the old ‘life is a journey’ metaphor. The speech writer really meant – the road ahead leads to a big cliff and most of ‘they’ whilst blindfolded will fall off the edge.
Scotland is taking a different route, the crossroad within walking distance.
CameronB Brodie,
“Rock
I’m not arguing whether you a correct or not, simply pointing out that it is your perception that seven months have been wasted.”
It is definitely my perception that seven months have been wasted flogging a dead horse.
Support for independence in September 2016 stands at 45%, down from 48% in July 2015.
Which suggests that Nicola’s stand on Brexit has not convinced any No voters.
My position ever since the Brexit result has been that it should have been made clear to the people of Scotland that the only way for Scotland to become a member of the EU was through independence.
Giving false hope has only helped the unionists to steady their support among the soft No’s.
It has also become clear that The National has had zero positive effect on support for independence, as I have been saying for a long time.
The National does not and has never supported independence. It is a cash cow for The Herald.
@Grouse Beater
Damn, I missed that. Thought I was being extra observant. Oh well!
Grouse beater That’s nothing, there exists I know not where a pic of me standing beside the misreporting Scotland ad van.
Not sure if this will put people off?
Anyway polls will not show much movement for weeks, maybe months, but they will move, it’s the tectonic plates of people’s political base, and movement takes time and persistence. Brexit just gave us a push, imagine if England voted to remain, it would have put us back years.
But t May is a godsend, an arrogant idiot who believes she is the only person to save the union, we needed thatcher reborn and by god did we get her, and with bells on. And furthermore the second lieutenant of the army cadets, has marched her troops to the alt right, mad as a brush ukipers sitting in both Holyrood and Westminster.
The stars are aligning, those who demanded a referendum tomorrow or last week are deluded, England is eating itself, all we have to do is continue the discussion, persuade the doubters, the few floating votes, convert, and make doubters of the firm nos, we need a 5% swing, the European citizens amongst us will be easy, most I have spoken too are their already.
The point is fight the battle on ground of your own choice, and at a time that best suits you, do not be forced into a confrontation, waiting is easier, that fighting a loosing battle. And then strike with everything you have.
BoJO insults the French with WW2 slagging,
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-goldman-sachs-frankfurt-idUKKBN1522SS
BUSINESS NEWS | Wed Jan 18, 2017 | 7:33pm GMT
Goldman could move up to 1,000 London staff to Frankfurt – Handelsblatt
BBC Scotland gimps put the UKOK boot in, every hour on the hour,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38661184
Elmar Brok rules out separate Brexit deal for Scotland
8 hours ago
From the section Scotland politics
BBC England
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37698916
Elmar Brok: Brexit ministers ‘have no idea’ of their exit plan
18 October 2016 Last updated at 23:11 BST
Just another round of wicked webs really.
“The National does not and has never supported independence. It is a cash cow for The Herald.”
The first part is self-evident crap. As for the second part it’s wrong, every title stands on its own and it’s clear The National is getting more money to spend, getting better by the issue. Thirdly as for the Herald, watch this space. I think in around April it’ll be a race for whether it or the Scotsman comes out first for Indy as the only solution to Brexit.
Breeks,
“Our sovereignty exists or it doesn’t, and that is a binary option unalterable by democratic opinion, so why are we leaving the issue hostage to electoral arbitration?”
It most certainly doesn’t exist, despite the likes of Robert Peffers banging on about it.
If if does exist, why are we so afraid to take the matter to court and resolve it once and for all?
Where are the “Lawyers for Yes” when they are needed?
Yesindyref” “Thought I was being extra observant.”
Great minds and all that… they share a common belligerence, an insistent belief in their monomaniac opinions.
Gibraltar livid
Since May’s ‘tough gal’ speech this essay has taken off again over the internet: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-3Tl
gerry parker says:
The UK is unstable arrangement held together with constitutional sealing wax that could melt away easily.
Why has it lasted so long? Suited England’s ruling classes to protect its northern border and to gain Scotland resources. Suited Scotland’s ruling classes to get a bite of the new up and coming Empire. Two legal systems with two constitutional and sovereignty traditions were the reality. That was ignored while the rich made money.
The reasons for a Union have all gone. However the reality of two kingdoms in Union with different models of sovereignty hasn’t really become widespread perception. It’s only a matter of time until they do.
Perhaps the Supreme Court will bring it all into public debate. It’s in some submissions. I certainly hope the deliberations reflect the Scottish legal status.
Perhaps, as you suggest, the SG will begin to use constitutional arguments, particularly when they won’t be known across the world.
I have the feeling it’s going to be the basis of debate and Anglo-centric WM won’t know what’s hit them
yesindyref2,
“The first part is self-evident crap. As for the second part it’s wrong, every title stands on its own and it’s clear The National is getting more money to spend, getting better by the issue.”
More than two years of the “independence supporting” The National resulting in a 3% points decrease in support for independence.
How do you explain that?
The national is owned by businessmen, they asked for volunteers, if it failed then those guys were out of a job, two started sharing a office. Go talk to the guys rock, meet them, because if you spent as much time rubbishing the Scotsman and the BBC, I might think you genuinely independence minded.
Breeks @ 8.29
I guess the prospect of (I won’t say loosing) being cheated again has crossed all our minds.
Wating on the result is going to be torture!
But for what it’s worth….And just my opinion..
I would not go down the referendum route again.
I would announce that is the last one for decades.
What I would do then is to always keep the Soverenty notion front and center,till everyone understands what it is…
Then at every General Election the choice would be vote in enough MPs to strike down the Treaty of the Union if they got elected.
The campaign need never stop.
Every General Election would carry with it the option to end the Union.
No special vote is required.
And we already know it is possible to vote in a huge majority of Independence minded MPs.
We would also be in a position where people were voting in the full knowledge that they were mandating their MP to end the Union,but,had not suffered the full on project fear before going to the polls!!
I must have missed the torrent of much better staunchly pro-independence newspapers.
Perhaps in the next Independence poll there should be a question: ‘what the bloody hell do you think is going to happen if we stay in the UK you gutless wretch?’
Anyone know what happened with the Coral ‘Rangers’ court judgement?
Andrew Mclean,
“if you spent as much time rubbishing the Scotsman and the BBC, I might think you genuinely independence minded.”
The BBC is and always has been Scotland’s enemy number one. You must have been off ill when I posted that, about a hundred times.
The BBC and the Scotsman are recognised as wolves by enlightened independence supporters.
The National is a wolf in sheep’s clothing to dupe gullible independence supporters.
As Labour in Scotland was for decades until it was exposed.
I note Rock is continuing his one-man campaign against The National.
This paper may well be the model for the future, if indeed it has a future, of printed daily newspaers.
It is mainly compiled by freelance contributors, and, it appears to be holding its own. I am not a regular reader, I honestly believe, if Newsquest put more resources into it, it would be an even-better paper. Like the other papers in the Herald group, it suffers from poor subbing for instance.
But, for all its faults, it is the best hope of the Independence movement for any sort of support from the media and should be encouraged and supported.
By the way Rock, this fall in support for Independence you keep trumpeting; as far as I can ascertain this is based on a couple of polls which James Kelly of Scotland Goes Pop – whom I trust more than Rock – has demonstrated as being flawed.
How come none of these queries are being made to Teresa by teamGB hackdom, let alone BBC Scotland gimps?
http://archive.is/Kilba
Jean Quatremer writes for Libération
“Above all, May says nothing about services. How, for instance, can banks retain guaranteed access to the continent, a necessity as soon as the City is no longer a financial centre for the euro?
What does Theresa May envisage offering in exchange? Because with all due respect to UK national sentiment, the reality is brutal: we are talking about a mid-ranking power of 65 million people, most of whose industry is owned by foreign capital, negotiating with one of the world’s principal trading, economic and monetary powers – a power that comes with a market of 450 million people. “
Just spent the evening over on the Guardian Comments pages. That is until they shut it down for comments. I think I may have inadvertently caused a few headaches and raised some blood pressures.
The last time I saw so much stinking shite in the one place I had asked my late wife to get Farmer Tampsom to drop off a half/load of dung in what was then a field behind the cottage. She missed what I had said and had him delivered a full load.
“The National is a wolf in sheep’s clothing to dupe gullible independence supporters.”
Its better than f all Rock. They are clearly YES and they’ve got amazing YES writers but the owners have them on a leash. What can we expect?
Start your own The Rock News paper Rock, and save Scotland from this farce union, with a newspaper:D
Socrates MacSporran,
“By the way Rock, this fall in support for Independence you keep trumpeting; as far as I can ascertain this is based on a couple of polls which James Kelly of Scotland Goes Pop – whom I trust more than Rock – has demonstrated as being flawed.”
This article is based on those couple of polls, flawed or not, to rubbish Torrance and Massie’s comments and I have taken it at face value.
If it is “flawed”, what do you think is the true position?
I am not “trumpeting” the fall in independence. I am giving my opinion on the fall:
Flogging a dead horse for the last seven months.
The National having zero or negative effect on support for independence.
But Rock, if it doesn’t exist, then what authority does Scots law have to remain distinct and separate from English law? Why do we have a separate education system? If Scotland was without sovereignty these separate institutions could not exist as distinct from UK wide law.
The problem is the accepted perception of Scottish sovereignty administered by Westminster, while currently holding sway, is misinformed and wrong, and that is an inconsistency which undermines Westminster, not Scotland.
The law is clear, it just isn’t being applied.
Leanne Wood Facebook
9 hrs ·
Theresa May, April 2016: “It is tempting to look at developing countries’ economies, with their high growth rates, and see them as an alternative to trade with Europe. But just look at the reality of our trading relationship with China – with its dumping policies, protective tariffs and industrial-scale industrial espionage.
And look at the figures. We export more to Ireland than we do to China, almost twice as much to Belgium as we do to India, and nearly three times as much to Sweden as we do to Brazil. It is not realistic to think we could just replace European trade with these new markets.”
“And while we could certainly negotiate our own trade agreements, there would be no guarantee that they would be on terms as good as those we enjoy now. There would also be a considerable opportunity cost given the need to replace the existing agreements – not least with the EU itself – that we would have torn up as a consequence of our departure.”
Biggest load of tory shite is the all new and exciting ability for the UK zone to trade with anyone and everyone. The tories left out facts like UK did that anyway but as part of the EU block, with staggeringly more power than a few upper class twits and chinless wonders can in Whitehall.
No doubt they’ll start wheeling out Prince Andrew again, he’s always good for a larf, bit rapie though.
heedtracker,
“They are clearly YES and they’ve got amazing YES writers but the owners have them on a leash. What can we expect?”
The owners have them on a leash because they don’t want Scotland to be independent.
They have been using it as a cash cow.
They are happy with the drop in support for independence.
They heavily supported RISE and the Greens at the expense of the SNP.
The moment they think it is helping independence, they will stop publishing it.
They must be laughing all the way to the bank at the likes of you.
Breeks,
“The law is clear, it just isn’t being applied.”
Why are we stll tolerating it after more than 300 years?
Led by Robert Peffers, and with advice from “Lawyers from Yes”, why don’t we take the matter to court to resolve the matter once and for all?
Because everyone and their dog knows that our pretendy “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it was written on.
The only way to become sovereign is to vote for independence by a majority.
Sky News just now.
Woo Hoo:
New Silk Road, First Freight Train from China arrives in UK.
Cost per container to UK £4900
Imports China to UK (2015) £37 Billion P/A
Cost per container back to China £2000
Exports UK to China (2015) £13 Billion P/A
Reporter states this is because China has less demand for UK goods.
Spokesman thinks this will change and there is a misconception that China don’t want UK good but Brexit will change this.
Aye right, so it will.
Tomorrow’s Sun front page goes for their classics, Merkel in a light bulb, “Would the last country to Leave the EU please turn the light out”
Murdoch’s never been a Remainer, in his NY NY $100 million Park Ave penthouse. Its his liggers that really stand out though, like The Ligger Neil.
I am pro an independent Scotland, but it is important to look at what can be deduced from your 2016 polling:
43% (32 + 11) of people are FOR independence
52% (28 + 24) of people are AGAINST independence
60% (32 + 28) of people are AGAINST brexit
35% (24 + 11) of people are FOR brexit
5% don’t know
With this data, who is likely to change a particular stance? I wouldn’t bank on your 11% pro-brexiteers putting EU membership before border protection.
Given the commitment of the current Westminster government to leave the EU, the two cohorts in the survey who have the most relevant decision to make are the 28% FOR UK/FOR EU, and the 5% don’t know groups. For independence to become reality, a goodly proportion of those 28% FOR/FORs need to choose EU membership over UK membership.
Let the Labour apologists et al conflate data. They will miss the point (again) and ingore the will of the people (again), while we can actually use this information strategically to contribute to constructive discussion in forums like this as people make their choices about Scotland’s future.
galamcennalath @ 9:11
I believe Blair was forced into a devolution of power by the EU who were not impressed by the UK’s approach to democracy within it’s constituent parts.
It would therefore seem appropriate to wait till the UK triggers Article 50 then bring up directly with the EU the constitutional arrangements which allow one part of the Union to overrule another part of it.
Nicola could quite rightly say to the EU.
” We tried via our Westminster MP’s to have amendments made to the Scotland bill and all 200 of these were thrown out by weight of numbers of the English MP’s. We tried to have Scotland’s wish to remain in the EU accommodated by suggesting ways that Scotland could remain in the EU while England Wales and NI left.
Our efforts were ignored by the UK. Where is the democracy here? If England wishes to leave the EU and take the Principality of Wales and the Province of Northern Ireland with it then we have no objection to that, but the Scottish Government, and the people of Scotland wish to stay in the EU”
Cat among the pigeons.
They must be laughing all the way to the bank at the likes of you.
True but the more money they make, the more the industry will want some too. Look at Record offering Nic Sturgeon a column. They all have profit at their core. You can bet they are watching National earnings like hawks.
Its an industry under huge strain now. Most of them would go to the wall without the advertising millions pumped into them by UK gov ads, which will be getting a massive boost from Brexit, selling it all as not a load of tory shite.
So Rock. The National is a newspaper which claims to be pro-indy but in fact undermines that aim in the way it presents things? Right? 😉
@sensibledave says:: 18 January, 2017 at 3:07 pm
” … because in the Scottish constituencies there was a majority vote to Remain miss the obvious.”
No, sensibledave. You as usual are the one missing the point.
There are only two partner kingdoms in the Union.
The union is a bipartite union of kingdoms.
Thus only Scotland is the partner Kingdom with the Kingdom of England and Scotland is not either a region or dominion of England either as a country or as a kingdom.
Until you understand that concept you fail to understand the argument that the majority of the Scottish kingdom want to stay and the majority of the English Kingdom want to leave.
The United Kingdom only has two partners and only one of them is Scottish and one of then is English. If your population grows 10 fold it will still be the kingdom of England.
@ Jockanese
A lot of what goes back is scrap. Waste paper, plastic, etc.
Still in the great new free trade opportunity world the containers will be filled with Great British goods. Like Tunnocks teacakes and Baxters soups – cos god knows they are remarkably cheap now. Is nobody Scottish paying the patriot premium any more?
Nice Douro wine this evening, and a general fu@kit attitude – and its still two days til Manran.
I attempted a Venn Diagram for a friend prior to the EU referendum. Here’s a link if it’s still useful.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B38CcWIZqa7RcE96anpMeHFjdGc/view?usp=sharing
Hi Rock.
You typed at 9.54pm,
“The only way to become sovereign is to vote for independence by a majority.”
But you type that we Scots are not sovereign. If we’re not sovereign, as you allege, why should it make a blind bit of difference if the inhabitants of a region of the UK vote for independence? I use the term “region”, as you don’t believe we Scots have sovereignty.
If Liverpool voted in a majority of councillors who stated in their manifesto that Liverpool should be an independent state, do you think that state would become fact? Westminster would meekly accept the popular will?
The fact is that Scots are sovereign. It only takes a majority of us to agree on a course of action for that action to become fact. Such is international law.
Come back with a better argument, please…
@yesindyref2 says: 18 January, 2017 at 3:57 pm:
“Little Britain” or “Little Britons” perhaps, avoids the problem.
Oh! Don’t be bloody stupid. That plays right into their game.
They think of themselves as Britain and they even invented the idiotic term, “Brexit”.
Neither England or the United Kingdom are Britain and their belief that it is their actual title is a basic root of why they continue to call the De Facto Parliament of England at Westminster the United Kingdom Parliament.
There actually wouldn’t be a problem if it actually was the Parliament of the United Kingdom i.e. a proper union of the only two kingdoms.
But it isn’t it is the Parliament of England and they use EVEL to make sure that it gets treated as such. You saw it today at PMQs with how they treated Angus.
To them it is England ruling over three underling dominions and they relegate their actual partner in the union to be an English dominion.
Do not play their game for them.
Hi davidb.
Re: the price of Baxters soups. You’re right enough there. I get my supplies of French Onion, Chicken Broth, Scotch Broth and, of course, Cock-a leekie, from the likes of Poundstretcher, B&M Bargains, Home Bargains, and Tesco & Asda when they’re doing them at the same price, for 50p a can.
OK, the non Tesco & Asda are 380 gms instead of 400 but they’re still worth it, as they are the nearest to ‘home-brewed’.
Audrey may be a misguided nawbag but she still makes bra’ soups.
@ yesindyref2
Flawed business model yesindyref2,who ever thought opening branches in other towns over Scotland and still calling it the Airdrie Savings Bank needs a punch in the back of the head.
Its a running joke in Falkirk High street do you think they are lost and should someone tell them this is Falkirk and having Airdrie on the front of your premises in our town is not going to win over the fickle Falkirk bairns as customers.
Was a bit sad to see them go under bad marketing advice on the company trading name is a bitter pill to swallow means you screwed up right from the start doh!
@gerry parker and @others
The submission of the Independent Worrkers Union to the Supreme Court lays out the constitutional reality. It goes much further than the Scottish Government submission.
Well worth a read, it you haven’t already done so.
Section 3 especially.
https://www.supremecourt.uk/docs/independent-workers-union-great-britain.pdf
It would be nice to think EU lawyers have analysed this and reported it to the EU negotiating team 🙂
Read all about it, neo fascism UKOK style. Which of the tory headlines have I made up tonight?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-citizens-detention-centres-immigration-detained-five-times-theresa-may-brexit-hostile-environment-a7534231.html
Better Together if you are an Englander
Not Better Together if you are Scottish
Same as last time
Same as it always is
@Socrates MacSporran says: 18 January, 2017 at 4:09 pm:
Just a thought, maybe someone better versed than I on how Europe works can say yes or no, but – as a way round this presumption that the EU cannot speak to Scotland as long as Scotland is a member of the UK.
I don’t know about that, Socrates, but I do know that each and every single one of us are full citizens of the EU and must, as citizens, have full citizens rights to approach the EU or at least to approach the European Commission.
Many moons ago I was researching such ways of attempting to get to the EU as a citizen. Unfortunately I became quite ill and had a long time without doing much of anything.
My thoughts were that if I could not approach my elected MEP or my elected MEP was from a unionist party and unlikely to be helpful then the EUs civil service, (The EC), would probably be duty bound to assist.
It might be worth a shot.
http://ec.europa.eu/index_en.htm
Just caught the end of BBC reporting Scotland my god snp bad at its best they are even saying a .2 increase is bad I hope a cure for this is soon, I will help build the border posts in a new Scotland.
I notice Misreporting Scotland announced branch closures by the Clydesdale and Yorkshire banks but could not be bothered to tell its viewers the bank was spending £350 million on changes to its customer services, and finding jobs elsewhere in the bank for the staff.
Well it is Mis-Reporting Scotland after all. It is their duty to misrepresent the news.
Listening to Scotland Tonight and “poor” Rhona interviewed
a Zoomer Andre Walker.
I have never heard such arrogance. Scottish nature is slow to respond to these types but when he referred to the greatest living Scotsman being inaugurated as Americam President on Friday I just switched off
The tories are meant to be pro-business. If you haven’t seen this page on the EU’s existing trade deals and those in the pipeline check it out. It is mindboggling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements
The scale of the challenge for the UK is crystallised somewhat- all of these relationships end for the UK in about 26 or 27 months.
How long will it take to negotiate comparable deals with all of these countries for the UK? Maybe a few hundred years?
This is the BIG 4 TIMES EXPORT LIE we are going to all know better than we know our pin numbers if we don’t know already. Scotland exports 4 times as much to England, Wales and Northern Ireland as it does to the EU dontcha know- never mind that the data this is based on is pure snish- 30% response rates on a voluntary survey… a kind of internet poll for businesses. For the unionists this is what they call a fact.
They consider the impact on trade for the EU as if there is no impact to other trade. Scotland leaves the EU and our EU exports face barriers but more than that, our international exports outwith the EU face barriers. We might manage to sort out an inferior deal with all the countries on that list eventually but by the time we do my children, their theoretical children and their theoretical children’s children will all be long dead.
That is the bleak future (in terms of business) we look forward to if we don’t break free. If we do vote YES we have a single business deal to worry about and that is the one rUK ends up negotiating with the EU.
We are about to drop off a fucking cliff if our countrymen and countrywomen don’t wise up.
I would advise everyone to get a handle on what we would be leaving. Basing this decision (indy Scot in EU versus UKOK ex EU) on the Scottish Government’s export survey is completely insane. FUCKSAKE even Thatcher would have thought it was insane and she hated Scotland more than anyone.
I looked up the Scottish Government’s report and there is a wee gem which highlights the diet of pure effluent we are being fed by the media, the tories, lib dems and labour. Great question: who is our number 2 international (global) export destination according to their stats. Wee hint: USA is number 1. Anyone gets this without checking you get a gold star.
@sensibledave says: 18 January, 2017 at 4:57 pm:
“Firstly, I bet I am bigger than you haha (as a point of fact actually, I know I am)!”
Let me put this in as nice a way as I can, sensibledave.
When you were referred to as, “little”, it was NOT in reference to your height, width, girth or the relative size of any other of your appendages, limbs or digits.
But I suspect you already know that.
HandandShrimp says:
Yup. Nobody is going to change them before Indy. They are going to keep on doing what they do in the name of their blessed Union.
We can, however, make more and more people aware of their propaganda.
Truth is, they are now so blatant that they probably convert many to YES all by themselves with their antics!
Boris Johnsons rant – ‘If Hollande wants to administer punishment beatings to anybody who seeks to escape, in the manner of some world war two movie, I don’t think that is the way forward’
Why is my Irony Klaxon screaming like a banshee in the background.
for the 11% who want Independence and out of the EU
I think most people would agree IndyRef2 is the pressing concern – given PM May’s talk of a “Hard Brexit” and the fact that once the Brexit negotiations are concluded there will be absolutely no chance of Scotland holding an Independence Referendum
if IndyRef2 loses – there’s nothing more to be said. We are in the UK and out of the EU, even more under the UK’s control than ever.
If Indyref2 wins – Scotland will be busy negotiating the break-up with the UK and her place in the EU, writing a constitution, forming political parties of all shades of the spectrum,setting up her independent parliament and taking her place at the top table among the nations of Europe, with more Scottish MEPs being elected.
In Europe Scotland may well find she gets very different treatment as an independent nation than as a backwater afterthought of the UK.
In any case, all this business will take time to bed down and for Scotland to get used to, and get the measure of what’s going on at home with her new constitution and parliament and abroad with her new place in Europe.
I honestly don’t think a Ref EU Out/In would be a good idea until the people understand what exactly is going on and have a very good idea of the pros and cons. Then of course if there is a demand to leave the EU a referendum can be called and a decision made in accordance with the results. But I don’t envisage it as something coming soon on the heels of a successful IndyRef2
@Tam Jardine
I’ve looked this up before and believe the answer to number two is the Netherlands.
However, I believe that Rotterdam, Europe’s largest container port (used to be the worlds until recently) is just our exports initial destination before being shipped by rail/truck whatever throughout the rest of Europe or shipped elsewhere in the world on much larger vessels than Scottish ports could handle.
Do I get a Gold Star?
This ligger could get a job off of Donaldo at PQ, busily winning my trust in Jacky Bird, cheeky smirk, Rule BritEnglandia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38669476
Euros are silly.
Lovely photo of not insane Teresa, and
“The UK might feel for now that its ahead on points, but everyone knows there’s a long way – a very long way – to go.”
The United Kingdom is a political union decided in 1707 by a small number of landed gentry of Scotland.
There has never been a union with England of the hearts and minds of Scots. This aspect of the much maligned treaty provides “Yes” to independence voters with a proven 45% block of supporters.
Gaining a majority vote requires a conversion to “Yes” of 5-10% of Scots who, with heavy heart were persuaded in the 2014 referendum by the political argument.
Parades and other forms of public meetings will have their place in any future independence campaign but they serve only to bolster the confidence of those already committed to voting “yes”and It will be down to the political savvy of economists, the business community, politicians and any media which is onside, to work there socks off winning the political and economic argument.
Scottish MEP’s will play a pivotal role persuading the EU to abandon thoughts of political correctness confirming, (through the EU Council of Ministers) that an independent Scotland would retain full membership of the EU, without precondition.
I’m just curious, if we are sovereign as a few posters have claimed why is the UK government thwarting our EU mediation proposals at every turn? I’m sorry we are not sovereign. It’s complete bollocks.
sorry left out a crucial word!
This sentence should read
“I honestly don’t think a Ref EU Out/In would NOT be a good idea until the people understand what exactly is going on and have a very good idea of the pros and cons”.
ben madigan says:
I agree completely, and on many levels.
– We’ve just had an EURef and the response from Scotland was strongly pro EU. Now we need to work at getting 60+% for Indy too.
– When IndyRef2 happens it won’t have been triggered by broken 2014 promises, or general Tory disregard for Scotland … it will be triggered by is being hauled out of the EU against majority will. The debate will and should be about Indy in the EU.
– I honestly expect the EU to be supportive if we show we want Indy in the EU. Nothing short of that will get their backing. Maybe I’m over optimistic, but I expect the EU to backup its citizens who wish to remain its citizens.
– The 11% need to contrast the relatively light imprint of the EU on Scotland, versus the massive power exercised over us by WM. The WM government has no mandate to rule as they do. The 11% need to ask themselves, what most negatively effects my life and those of my children, and grandchildren? I don’t think many YES supporters could honestly say Brussels is the problem, and London is really ok!
– Scots who are anti EU must be seeing the relationship through the eyes of the London media and the way they report everything about ‘Johnny Foreigner’. iScotland in the EU, will have the same standing as the other 27. Our MEPs will be speaking for Scotland, always. The EU brings many good things, workers rights and high food standards among many others. YES and NO Leavers should consider all this.
Thepnr
Spot on- the Netherlands. So what can we conclude? That the figures do not accurately reflect the final destination of the produce.
That is going to be my new tact:
1. Why do you think the Netherlands is listed as Scotland’s 2nd largest international market?
2. Do you still believe that Scotland exports 4 times as much to the rest of UK as we do to the EU?
@ ben madigan at 11.28
You were right the first time! You don’t think it would be a good idea/ you do think it wouldn’t be a good idea.
Johnny and K1 , re NI. Why did Mcguiness resign and nobody put forward to replace him triggering an election, there not likely to put a deputy forward after the March election otherwise why not put one up now. No they will refuse to put forward a deputy which will result in direct rule from .london. What happens then if Supreme Court rules that devolved administrations and parliaments have say before triggering article 50?
Tam
“Great question: who is our number 2 international (global) export destination according to their stats. Wee hint: USA is number 1.”
‘Exports’ regarding the European continent is a little different from exports to the USA. The USA may by and large, be considered an export final destination (with some minority on going to Canada, Mexico etc.)
However, for Europe, this is not the case. Countries on the Western seaboard will receive most of Scotland’s European exports as technical imports but will ‘pass on’ a large percentage of those via distribution chains to other internal or further flung continental countries.
That is, they are not the final destination place of all of the exports. Their consumer bases do not account for anything like the amount imported through their ports, it is passed on as exports from the whichever trading nation is involved.
The most direct shipping route landfalls from Scotland to the main consumer markets of continental Europe are Denmark(feeding Northern Germany, Poland), The Netherlands (Feeding Mid Germany directly, ongoing to Poland, Czechia, Slovakia ), Belgium (feeding Southern Germany, Northern France ongoing to Austria, Hungary Northern Italy).
France and ongoing to Italy, Spain, being large populations will also get a lot of Scottish exports but those statistics will have been obfuscated by the fact England lies between Scotland and the closest landfall ports.
It is just logistics.
Of course a significant amount of trade these days, high value to weight/volume goods, are transported by air, which is not subject to such logistical considerations and point of export point of final consumption confusion.
Europe has views at a campsite the we are full was changed to we have a space when you are from Scotland it’s if they don’t like the English? (should have had a Scottish Redg they saw the eu ecosse badge all ok)
Tam Jardine @ 11.38
I never did believe anything other than most Scottish exports were “passing through” England!
My main concern is what price and/blackmail will Westminster employ to let Scotland still use their ports?
If we don’t have the facilities to do it at home.
The first few years of Indy will be the hardest,our ability to export will be important.
It’s also the early years, while we are trying to get on our feet, there will, I think, be agitating to reverse the decision, and grid lock on our ability to export will be a bit of a we told you so issue.
Anything negative will but that’s one that could really bite.
If the Supreme Court decides the Scottish people are sovereign does that mean we stay in the EU? And what does that mean for the Union?
Just leaving that for you to contemplate.
Chick McGregor
We are on exactly the same page Chick. The extremely flawed stats tell us that the Netherlands are our number 2 international export destination just as they tell us we export 4 times as much to rUK as we do the EU. The reality is that this vastly overestimates both markets.
Having said that, Scottish based companies operating in the rest of UK are huge but if some kind of enormous trade barrier is erected preventing Scottish headquartered companies like Kwik Fit operating in England the same trade barrier would be reciprocated for English, Welsh and Northern Irish companies operating not just in the EU but in all countries where current free trade is possible through the EU.
What I am trying to do is figure out ways of destroying this absurd and extremely damaging simplification of our place in the world as a potential independent trading nation. And I think the Netherlands stat is useful in that regard.
If I am honest- I am pretty fed up with my party not nailing this. And I am raging that trade organisations like the Scotch Whisky Association are not screaming for indy when 90% of their members surveyed were against brexit. What are they waiting for? We are the largest producer of spirits in Europe with whisky alone (without even considering gin) by far and the idea that brexit represents an opportunity for this vast export based industry is a fantasy. What are they waiting for?
Poll: ‘Should David Mundell resign?’
I tried doing a Change.org petition but it was a pain up the arse.
This may work:
twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257
@Scot Finlayson says: 18 January, 2017 at 6:00 pm:
“little englanders and their unshakeable belief in their God given greatness,
the Italians (Roman) came and conquered VENI VIDI VICI,”
Yes Scot but the Romans never added to the southern gene pool. The centurions had to take a vow of celibacy and the upper class Romans kept themselves to themselves.
“the Germans (Angles,Saxons,Jutes) came and conquered”
Yes Scot but those Germanic Tribes were from the Scandinavian area. Not modern Germany.
” … the Danish,Norwegian,(Viking) came and conquered”
Yes Scot but they too were from Scandinavian areas.
“the French (Normans) came and conquered”
And believe it or not the name, “Normans”, is derived from the term, “Norsemen”, but in this case they had been invited to settle in what is now Normandy for the very same reasons as the Angles Jutes and Saxons got invited to settle in Southern Britain that became, “Angleland”.
“the Spanish would have if the worse storm in a 100 years had not destroyed their fleet,”
Now that was just a bit of luck down south.
“you would think they would be more open to their
European brothers and sisters”.
Now here’s the killer punchline.
The English when subjected to genetic tests have shown to have less than 0.5% Anglo Saxon genes, and here is the most likely explanation.
The Romans were the elite rulers and did not interbreed with the native south Britons so not much trace in the gene pool. So also with the various flavours of the Germanic Tribes from Scandinavian areas and especially the Normans who brought to Britain the feudal system and they treated the native Britons as serfs of villeins – i.e. slaves.
The Normans were the aristocracy and it is these aristocrats who became the Royals and hereditary peers. Some of which still inhabit the HOL today.
One of the earlier discoveries of the old Stone age Britons at a dig in the North of England in a place called Howick in Northumbria first exploded the old theory that ancient Britons were all hunter gatherers as Howick was a large settlement and had been built upon several times. These were early farmers
However, they obtained some genetic material from the site and subsequent tests identified a woman living within a few miles of the dig was a direct descendent of the stone age Britons.
The truth is that most of us in Britain are in fact descended from the aboriginal Stone Age Britons.
Not even those of us thought to be Celt actually are Celts. In that case the Celts were mainly Saints and Holy men, There were celibate and the natives adopted Celtic languages and culture just as the southerons adopted Anglo Saxon languages and culture.
So the differences, as today, are cultural rather than genetic. Not surprising really as we were still fighting each other at Culloden in 1745 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed and we got our culture from different continentals as when the English allied with the Germans we allied with the French and vice versa over many centuries.
We most decidedly are culturally different but apparently much the same genetically.
Now I’m off to bed as I had a busy afternoon and evening over on the Guardian comments pages stirring up the Yoon loon goons more than a bit.
Sovereignty is not some tangible thing you can see or grab Joemcg it is an idea and as it spreads more people come to understand what it means which is simply the right to choose if we so wish.
Which we will demonstrate by holding indyref2 and telling westminster and the UK to do one as soon as Mayhem signs A50.
Our problem in the past was we never used it and just accepted the answer no from the UK and got back in the box,but now we do not.
Aye Tam,
I believe it is called ‘The Rotterdam Effect’. Ironically, something which they complain about darn sarf distorts their import/export trade figures with The Netherlands. 🙂
The Netherlands has ‘exports’ and ‘imports’ both in excess of 500 billion euros which is patently ridiculous.
Yeah, the link works if you just copy/paste into browser.
Only 47 votes so far, 96% ‘Yes’.
It’ll be there for the next week.
I’ll put the http bit in this time, see if that makes it ‘live’:
http://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257
For fun tried to ask kes dugdale a question but as to verify the question I was asked to add 5 + 6 tried to enter 11 but the highest number was 9 so if you can add it up, by by. I think if you can see through the crap I spout(kes not me) you will be competition good night and roll on indy2.
‘Johnny and K1 , re NI. Why did Mcguiness resign and nobody put forward to replace him triggering an election, there not likely to put a deputy forward after the March election otherwise why not put one up now. No they will refuse to put forward a deputy which will result in direct rule from .london. What happens then if Supreme Court rules that devolved administrations and parliaments have say before triggering article 50?’
I’m going to abstain in attempting an answer here on the grounds that I’m not greatly informed on the Irish situation right at the moment Lenny. I’m searching the room for Cadogan Enright? Who will have a much clearer idea of the ins and outs of what is happening there Lenny.
boris at 11.26
Do not underestimate the huge effect of public demonstrations and public YES identification. There is a significant section of the population who are much more affected by that than by complicated or detailed argument. Many people who are not sure are carried along by what they see as popular positions agreed by many other people. That is why our opponents in the media try not to cover this kind of stuff.
Liz g
You make a great point. Upgrade our ports? Not my field but I daresay that is not insurmountable. So we need a container terminal rather than feeder ports? Not my area but challenges like this can be turned into opportunities.
I also take your point about the first few years being tough but I can’t help thinking we will have some very powerful friends during the process. Any difficulties we face are as nothing compared to the hit our country will face. We will no longer be a real country anymore in my view- countries make their own decisions. We’ll be a laughing stock in the eyes of the world and rightly so.
Lenny Hartley @11.55 Re the situation in N. Ireland
This report was broadcast on Monday evening BBC R4
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088b87c
Item starts at 32mins 30secs in.
In particular, the interview with Naomi Long (34mins 55 sec in) leader of the cross-community Alliance party in N. Ireland is a good explanation of the current problem with the Power Sharing Agreement seen from a more neutral viewpoint( i.e. not DUP not Sinn Fein).
I’ve heard it mentioned that Martin Mc Guiness may have health problems and may indeed be considering his political future, so it’s a totally unpredictable situation just now.
The election will take place on March 2nd so there ‘should’ be representation of the people in time for the triggering of Article 50 expected at the end of March but it’s far from ideal.
Don’t forget, the UK Supreme court ruling on T May’s plan trigger Art 50 is due out next Tuesday so that could also influence things.
@Rock:
“More than two years of the “independence supporting” The National resulting in a 3% points decrease in support for independence.”
No it didn’t.
“How do you explain that?”
You’re talking crap. It’s gone, according to the BMG Herald Poll from 44.7% to 55.5% – an increase of 0.8%.
On the subject of Tories: Here’s a wee form they want people to fill:
’12 Negotiating Objectives for Brexit
How strongly do you support each of these negotiating objectives?’
(From Rev’s feed), Ah did…what? Input ‘dummy’ email address and it sends anyway…what’s not tae like 🙂 (hus wee ‘name’ box where I found one could place any old shit one wanted to convey to them. (tip, don’t put yer postcode in, it sends anyway…or do if you really want to them to have yer details)
https://www.conservatives.com/leavingtheeuropeanunion
*Well they want fucking feedback…let’s give them some*
galamcennalath @10:30 pm
Now that was a good read and thanks for posting that link.
I would welcome Roberts Peffers views on it as a submission document to Court
Good article in the National about BBC Scotland not removing offensive comments about Nicola and Scotland from their HYS.
Does that help, Rock??
@ Mr Peffers
back of the class Robert,1746,
had my DNA tested and (Fathers side) it seems my biggest % of hits (26%) was in the French/Spanish borders then Sco, Norw,Ire,Ital,greece/macedonia.
That’s be good *44.7% to 55.5%. Typo – should be 45.5%.
Nana says:
18 January, 2017 at 6:01 pm
O/T
TODAY AT SCOTTISH QUESTIONS MUNDELL CAN BE CLEARLY HEARD SAYING
“I DONT CARE”
WHEN ASKED ABOUT 80,000 JOB LOSSES!
Listen here
https://twitter.com/SoarAlba59/status/821774077987876864
I listened to this just after you put it up Nana, but now when I listen from the exact same link that takes you to the parliament tv, where you could clearly hear him say ‘I don’t care’, has been cut!
Did anyone with the skills ‘save’ this clip earlier just after it was posted? I didn’t think they could ‘edit’ parliament tv?
Lenny
Forgive me if you know some/all or most of this but this is my understanding of the situation just now in Belfast. Open to correction from anyone…
The final straw for Mc Guiness is connected with the RHI Renewable Heat Initiative.
This scheme was introduced in 2012 by Arlene Forster who was then the DUP Enterprise minister.
People were given a cash incentive to use renewable heating methods – for each £1 spent on heating you could claim back £1.60. Not surprisingly it caught on but has now reached the scenario where e.g. a farmer is claiming a £500,000 rebate for heating an empty shed.
N. Ireland is looking at a possible overspend of £490m in payouts in the next 20 years.
It has been under investigation since Feb 2016 but has been thwarted by the DUP amidst claims that they have altered records and tried to protect Arlene Forster ( Pro-Brexit, Ruth Davidson equivalent) who refused to stand aside as the investigation into the RHI scheme has been carried out. This has been coming to a head for some months and may also, allegedly, involve two special advisers to the DUP who have connections with the poultry industry.
Under the Power Sharing Agreement the First Minister and Deputy First Minister positions are a joint office. If one resigns, the other has to step down. If there is no replacement within a week then the Executive falls and an election has to be called. On Monday, the DUP re-proposed Arlene Forster for First Minister and she accepted the nomination which returned to the status quo and stale mate. Sinn Fein declined to nominate so the UK gov now has to move to an election. The current Assembly will sit until January 26th.
@ K1 12.36
More entertaining in Scotland methinks https://www.facebook.com/Inform-Scotland-1969903196569754/
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2023291021230971&id=1969903196569754
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2024236791136394&id=1969903196569754
Aye Cadogan, great stuff!
Thanks Meg for all info. regarding NIreland situation.
A few comments today about David Mundell – Scottish Questions and the way that our SNP MP’s are treated in “that place” An interesting link pulling all these things together is http://www.helensburghsnp.scot/index.php/item/1252-mundell-running-scared-of-the-snp-at-scottish-questions
K1
They’ve shortened the Link by cutting out the start of the question which is the section over which Mundell shouted.
This link will take you to the entire Scottish Questions. Scroll down to Kirsten Oswald’s question at 11.58 and i can assure you, it’s still audible!
If the link doesn’t work, go to the parliament live TV site, Click on Events and use the timetable to find the House of Commons (1st on the list) for Wed. 19th at about 11.35am
http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/968c0454-8a67-451e-8303-3715de963555
She says: ‘A hard brexit outside the single market, threatens to cost Scotland 80,000 jobs over a decade ” I DON”T CARE” and cost people £2,000 in wages.
Thanks Meg, I just thought it was ‘curious’ that that particular link had been altered by ‘cutting’ it at that salient bit, guid tae know it’s all still there, but it would be even better if someone had a clear ‘cut’ of that whole section ‘unaltered’ like it was originally, for general dissemination. They must’ve got wind of it’s potential to go viral, disgraceful and it’s as clear as a bell that it’s fluffy’s voice making that remark.
Rock, if you don’t have sovereignty, a vote for anything is just an opinion poll. It is sovereignty which empowers it to become a decision, because sovereignty IS the power to make a decision.
Why is it not enacted? I don’t know. Our country is blind and badly misinformed by a system of government designed to subjugate it’s constitutional independence. I HOPE however we are finally in the process of reasserting our constitutional sovereignty, correcting what is incorrect, and having it properly recognised internationally.
Why that isn’t the constitutional approach of the SNP I cannot say, ask the SNP. They champion a democratic victory as a necessary prerequisite to laying claim to our sovereignty. I satisfy myself they believe that is a diligent path towards reclaiming our sovereignty without agitating rage and dissent from those of our countrymen who would rebel against any decision imposed upon them by an electoral minority.
I see it differently. Our sovereignty is inalienable. We cannot vote to be rid of it, we cannot have it removed from us. We as a nation have been duped into believing that isn’t the case, and for now that alternate version of the truth prevails. However, as stated in the previous paragraph, reasserting our Sovereignty without an electoral majority could and would be perceived as something imposed upon a majority by a minority and could face rejection and challenge.
We will in. We will reassert our rightful sovereignty. But we must do it in a manner which does not set one Scot at the throat of another.
I repeat what I have said before, and what Robert Peters has said before, that sovereignty cannot be defined or influenced by democratic opinion when it is an absolute condition defined in law in perpetuity. To subjugate Scotland, the United Kingdom has devised a way to circumvent this obstacle to power over us by creating and maintaining a false version of the truth.
Anyone seen the online Courier (Dundee) poll?
It asks would you more likely vote Yes or No after the Brexit announcement by May.
Here’s the weird thing – If you click “Yes” (which sits above No on the form) then view results, the results are flipped.
It literally turns your Yes into a No.
Try it!
Westminster ‘Scottish Question Time is a farce. A total insult. It just makes people angry.
Westminster is an absolute abomination. Just appalling.
The only thing to do is to have another Scottish Independence Referendum.
Scotland imports and exports are roughly the same without Westminster’s interference. The rest of the UK has a major balance of payments deficit. Westminster mismanagement costs Scotland £20Billion a year.
There are £10Billion of ‘unaccounted’ expenses and Oil exports going into Europe unreported.
Hammond is borrowing and spending £500Billion on Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All a total waste of money, with no business case. Cutting funding for the NHS and Education.
Brexit is just a cover so the Tories can misappropriate public money. In banking fees, consultancies and expenses. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies.
Westminster caused the migration into Europe and manipulated the migration figures. Illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. They are now trying to ruin the world economy, again. Hedge funds gambling that the UK economy will tank losing £Billions.
Links
http://indyref2.scot/exclusive-tom-gordon-has-not-been-gagged-by-the-snp
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/hard-brexit-means-independence.html
http://newsnet.scot/archive/pm-may-plans-cliff-top-walk-suicide-jump/
https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/01/18/my-precioussss/
First Minister to address NFU Scotland AGM
http://archive.is/tk7cQ
http://thirdforcenews.org.uk/tfn-news/charities-unite-against-daily-mail-attack
https://soundcloud.com/user-157220226/episode-17-snp-mp-roger-mullin-on-the-supportive-snp-brexit-and-a-policy-win
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/01/19/it-may-be-legally-possible-for-scotland-to-stay-in-the-customs-union-and-even-the-single-market/
Scottish diplomat who drew up Article 50 warns of danger that Brexit deal will collapse
http://archive.is/murzk
http://www.thecanary.co/2017/01/18/kuenssberg-asks-corbyn-hell-resign-misleading-report-made/
https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/access-arrangements-for-24-january-article-50-brexit-judgment.html
http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/18/hsbc-to-move-1000-staff-from-london-to-paris-after-brexit
JP Morgan Warns Theresa May’s Brexit Threats Are ‘Very Dangerous’ For UK Jobs
http://archive.is/8Z2Io
Brexit: ‘Hard border’ could be across Irish Sea
http://archive.is/IHpp6
Ireland’s finance minister says 100 UK finance firms have asked about moving post-Brexit
http://archive.is/s7kZV
Brexit: Theresa May challenged by senior Tories over ‘worse than feared’ EU withdrawal speech
http://archive.is/bXsFI
Thatcher closed down the Docks around the UK and centralised transport system around London. Adding to the congestion, Built Tilbury Docks (26miles) and Canary Wharf with the Oil revenues. Deregulated banking and demutualised the Building Societies owned by the members. The bankers fund the Tory Party. Sold off untilitues now owned by foreign state companies. Left over 3 million unemployed and interest rates at 15%.
Mornin’ Nana
That James Kelly piece doesn’t seem far off the mark. Settling down with cuppa for some further reading, but that one is worth folks reading.
The more I listen to the likes of what May, Johnson and Hammond have to say about Brexit, the more I’m seeing a pattern.
They know what’s a coming for them sure.. (in general terms)
SO it seems like they are getting all of their threatening excuses and aggressive moanings in early, in expectance of the backlash from the entire English / Welsh electorate (following the EU carrying out their Standard Operating Procedures for Article 50 removal from the EU and the resultant effects.)
“We really tried.. Westminster good, EU BAD” ~ You know the drill.
It’s almost like the Tories are planning and expecting Brexit (A50) to fail dramatically, once it’s triggered by the end of March ’17!
With Indyref2 edging ever closer, it’s great to be Scottish.
X.
Nana: Good Morning,
Thank you, Kettle’s on
Peace Always
Maybe all the nice folk out there can explain how the Isle of Man etcetera are able to self govern from Westminster but we cannot.
To understand the Britnat and Tory Goverment embrace of Brexit, the following quote from the May speech is illuminating –
“Our political traditions are different. Unlike other European countries, we have no written constitution, but the principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty is the basis of our unwritten constitutional settlement. We have only a recent history of devolved governance – though it has rapidly embedded itself – and we have little history of coalition government. The public expect to be able to hold their governments to account very directly, and as a result supranational institutions as strong as those created by the European Union sit very uneasily in relation to our political history and way of life.”
In other words London Establishment sees it’s undemocratic institutions to be threatened by the EU.
Those institutuons include;
The Monarchy
The House of Lords
The lack of a written constitution
First past the post voting system for Westminster elections
Devolved Government
We should be very concerned.
Brexit is being used for purposes unintended by those who voted Leave.
The Tories (all colours) are going to use the opportunity to close down further democracy and the need for change.
@Macart Hope you’ve got your comfy slippers on, it’s going to be a long reading session this morn lol
@Smallaxe Good morning, how are you doing?
*********************
Two more links
STV News gets it all wrong on delayed patient discharges
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/
Sterling falls as investors take second look at May’s speech
http://archive.is/ZlUj4
Dave McEwan -Hill re public demonstrations and winning doubters over. Agree that at the moment we should build on the atmosphere created by indyref 1. Timing is everything however.
Nana:
I’m fine Nana, thanks, hope you are well also.
Peace Always
@Nana
Ayup! The JP Morgan piece in Huff isn’t too comfy with May’s threat either.
I think the past couple of day’s responses from the continent and business sectors should provide HMG with a clear picture. Outside of the braying rightwing party donkeys and faithful, her speech went down like a lead balloon.
She’s about to find out from the international community that folk don’t respond well to threats.
Re Yes voting Leavers. When it comes down to it, the vast majority of those people are still Scots. They are conflicted, just like No voting Remainers like my wife and eldest are but Yes Remainers have already voted Yes once and nobody much is chapping their doors, standing at street stalls in the High St etc putting the question to them.
Just like No Remainers they will be waiting to see how the Section 50 court case pans out, how parliament will vote, which Tories will turn up their toes eroding May’s wafer thin majority etc. etc.
Once Article 50 has been called, once the manifest lies confirmed and the Realpolitik has been asserted over May’s fantasist blustering. Their hopes for Brexit will begin to waver. If at the same time they are being made to consider IndyRef2 and assured, as they should be, that they can freely campaign for a Scotexit after Independence etc then they can be won back for Yes and many of them added to No Remainers deciding they really want to be Europeans (my eldest) or that their jobs rely on the EU and a non xenophobic immigration policy (my wife) etc. etc. Then the polls will change and change big and when they do the momentum will be unstoppable.
Nobody likes being on the wrong end of History. Then our biggest enemy will be complacency and getting our vote out on the day. We are going to need a much better operation next time, one that doesn’t focus on middle class houses with multiple cars.
Robert Peters? Apologies Mr Peffers. Autocorrection I missed.
@ Cactus
That is exactly what they are doing electoral damage control hence them jumping on board the UKIP narrative and by putting an old leftie duffer who is useless in charge of the red tories so they can all point and say see we are your only choice,same trick they pulled with that bumbling halfwit goat Foot.
Lots of English Labour are like wtf is going on,it can only be a matter of time before they figure out red tories,blue tories,yellow tories all establishment tories.
hehe but i will do my utmost to remind them 😉
@boris says: 18 January, 2017 at 11:26 pm:
“Scottish MEP’s will play a pivotal role persuading the EU to abandon thoughts of political correctness confirming, (through the EU Council of Ministers) that an independent Scotland would retain full membership of the EU, without precondition.”
That part need not be too difficult a task. All that is required is to scotch the myth that the UK is a member country. There is no problem digging out evidence to achieve that end. It is plainly written down in the actual Treaty of Union.
This is a double edged sword in that the Treaty obviously is a bipartite merger of Kingdoms and there is absolutely nothing to show the United Kingdom has ever been a legally united single country.
Almost everyone outwith and within the United Kingdom has just unthinkingly accepted the anomaly that the Yoons keep pushing by their constant erroneous references to the United Kingdom as, “The country”.
Without them giving it a conscious thought, they fail to see the anomaly of the Yoon’s never-ending claims that everything connected with Westminster and the United Kingdom is, “Britain”, and, “British”, when it quite patently is not. There cannot be a Brexit because Britain is NOT actually a European Union member state.
Only the United Kingdom is the member state and that is legally a bipartite union of kingdoms that contains four distinct countries with three of them comprising the Kingdom of England.
Yet as soon as their attention is drawn to the truth there is no way they can ever go back to blindly accepting the lies.
Once the seed is planted that there is more to Britain than the UK, (and one painless way of getting that subconsciously across is to persist in using the full term, “United Kingdom”, instead of just the initials, “UK”), the European Union views take a sharp turn in the direction of Scotland as the only partner Kingdom with the three country Kingdom of England as a European member state and not as a European member country.
Once they start thinking of the United Kingdom as a bipartite Kingdom of two equally sovereign partners then the task has been accomplished. It is then simple for the European Union to see that it would be undemocratic and un-European to even consider expelling their Kingdom of Scotland European Union citizens against their wills but that it would be equally undemocratic and un-European NOT to let the Kingdom of England European Union Citizens who want to leave to remain trapped in the EU against their wills.
The truth then becomes that the Scots have been European citizens for as long as there has been a European Union and they are thus the legacy member state. The advantage from an EU POV is that no changes are required to EU laws, rules or arrangements.
The Kingdom of England gets what it voted for. The Kingdom of Scotland gets what it voted for and The European Union carries on without hardly a ripple in the smooth running of the Union and gets rid of the Westminster cabal that has been a persistent thorn in the side of the EU for as long as there has been an EU.
There only needs be a renegotiation of terms and those terms have all been complied with by Scotland since the EU first began. The only thing that has changed is the in the figures but not in the term themselves.
Robert Peffers 11:06 pm
You wrote: “Little Englander”:-
an English person who thinks England is better than all other countries, and that England should only work together with other countries when there is an advantage for England in doing so:-
Example – His policies might please the little Englanders but they would be a disaster for the country as a whole.”
… We’ve been here before with you Robert.
You pretend to be knowledgeable, learned and oh so clever – but you reveal a very nasty side of your character often when you write.
You use the term little Englander in the pejorative sense that you choose to define. You define a set a values, thoughts, ideas and principles that you have decided constitute a “little ENglander” and then, regardless of the truth or the evidence that stares you in the face, you project those ascribed values on to ordinary folk that you do not know, en bloc, as a racial stereotype.
You let yourself down and show yourself for what you are. Because nobody here jerks your chain and corrects you, you grow in confidence and cast out insults based upon someone’s place of birth and what you believe they therefore stand for and the way they think.
Pathetic Robert. I feel sorry for you that you have become so deluded, so wrong, so ill-informed and so lacking in empathy – that you casually write the things you do without even a hint of embarrassment or self-awareness.
To help you Robert, maybe you could provide a little more information on your use of, and definition, of the term.
Is a Little Englander a blue collar factory worker living in a council house in say, Newcastle – that left school at 15 and never had the chance at higher education – or are they, say, senior manager who enjoyed a very comfortable life, university educated, lives in a nice detached house in say, South Oxfordshire?
If you can respond to that Robert then we can then have sensible conversation – bearing in mind that the residents of South Oxfordshire voted 60/40 to Remain.
The term Little Englander is as lazy and stereotypical and insulting as the notion of a typical Scot being a p****d up, toothless drunk laying face down in a gutter in Sauchiehall Street.
When the only way you can debate is to sink to those levels Robert, you really should give up.
Robert Peffers says: at 9:08 am
“Scottish MEP’s will play a pivotal role persuading the EU to abandon thoughts of political correctness confirming, (through the EU Council of Ministers) that an independent Scotland would retain full membership of the EU, without precondition.”
Now then, Robert, how do we get that on the front pages of every newspaper in the EU and on the desks of every Commissioner in the EU?
Isn’t that what we have MEP’s for?
BTW – Excellent job.
No Scotsman has EVER been arrested,lying in a gutter in Sauchiehall Street,….a couple in Bath Street maybe,local knowledge is a wonderful thing.
#Fact
😉
Theresa May says Britain voted FOR Globalisation
I must not have seen that on the ballot paper
Now more than ever the Scottish government must keep talking with EU ministers and advisers. The EU can play the same role for Scotland as France did for the 13 colonies of America.
“In Europe we see only one loser from Brexit – and it won’t be us”
Jean Quatremer writing in today’s Guardian (www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/18/europe-loser-brexit-britain?)
This article is worth reading in itself, but the comments following, offer a gauge to public sentiment – at least among Guardian readers. To the extent of the value in that, then Theresa May’s propaganda is definitely not working. As one reader said, ‘48% of the UK is violently opposed to everything the PM has been saying over the past few days’.
Scotland would do well to keep in mind the enormous amount of opposition there is to the Brexiteers both here in the UK but also, and even more so, in the EU. We need to keep our hopes well up.
In the British Establishment, Scotland has always had a formidable foe. But ‘fings ain’t wot they used to be, as they say darn sarf, the Establishment is rocking, and in the EU, Scotland has a formidable friend.
Propaganda is the Establishment’s main weapon. But it fires blanks in Europe. Would that were the case in Scotland.
@Joemcg says: 18 January, 2017 at 11:27 pm:
“I’m just curious, if we are sovereign as a few posters have claimed why is the UK government thwarting our EU mediation proposals at every turn? I’m sorry we are not sovereign.”
Oh! Please engage your brain before opening your gob or putting your typing finger on the keyboard.
You quite obviously cannot tell the difference between being actually legally sovereign and not being treated as being legally sovereign by the Westminster Establishment.
The only existing evidence is that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and that has been proven true in the modern High Court of the independent Scottish Legal System.
There is not a shred of evidence that states the Westminster, “UNITED KINGDOM”, parliament has ever had legal sovereignty over Scotland. There has also been several Scottish Claims of Right and all have just been ignored by Westminster who have never established legal sovereignty over Scotland. In fact now Westminster is being run as the de facto Parliament of the country of England that now treats Scotland as a devolved parliament of the Parliament of England.
Just because Westminster tells us they are the real boss of the other three countries of the United KINGDOM. make that a true legal fact.
The Treaty of Union, (Article 19), lays down that the Scottish, (and hence the English), legal system remain independent in perpetuity. It is long but I reproduce Article XIX,(19), here for proof of that particular pudding :-
If you wish to prove to this forum that we Scots are NOT legally sovereign then by all means produce your evidence of your claim. I’m sure the Wingers will be ready to decide for themselves for wingers are a very astute lot.
Otherwise stop undermining the sovereign people of Scotland.
In Davos this morning Mrs Mays new Globalisation strategy was to wag her finger like a head teacher at the rest of the world and tell them they’re all wrong and she’s right
How to win friends and influence people must not have been on Mrs Mays reading list
Not only is this woman a lightweight, she’s a lightweight Idiot
Al’s on a roll. 🙂
https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2017/01/17/where-we-are-and-where-were-going/
Nana says:
” I think it likely May will trigger Article 50 before the deadline and go for an early ‘no deal’ if she does not get her way. Bugger Scotland. Bugger Northern Ireland. We could be out of the EU before the end of the year.”
Wow, quite a prediction!
Might be right.
@ Robert Peffers Myself along with 83 others demonstrated or Sovereignty in the Court of Sessions on Lord Turnbull posing the question , Who are the Sovereign Scots , all the hands went up with the words , IM A SOVEREIGN SCOT , shouting out in any Court is a contempt of said Court no rebuke from Lord Turnbull as he is well aware of the status of us Scots.
sensibledave
Ah’d gie up if Ah wis you Son, you’re making less and less sense every time you post.
……………………………………………………..
I would appreciate “Auld Bob’s” (love your Guardina handle Mr P) view on this:
Under the terms of the Act of Union in 1707, the parliaments of England and Scotland were kicked into the long grass, to be replaced by the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
The Parliament of England shut itself down – th Parliament of Scotland merely adjourned itself – to be re-convened by Winnie Ewing’s announcement in 1999.
That re-convening was agreed to by the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
Scottish representation within the Parliament of the United Kingdom is in the hands of the 59 Scottish MPs.
Might it not be the case that if/when the Parliament of the United Kingdom decides to allow the Government to trigger Article 50 and begin the process of exiting the EU, say 56 of these 59 Scottsih MPs declare that the people of Scotland has made it clear, they do not wish to leave the EU and, England having decided to do this, then the Union has been rescinded and is now broken.
Given this motion would be backed by the majority of the MSPs in the Scottish Parliament, surely the Union has to end – since Scotland, one of the equal partners, is saying loudly and clearly: “No, it is no longer working, it has to end”.
Robert Peffers@9:08
sensibledave@9:19 Resorting to insults.
He’s rattled Robert. Love your posts.
@Tam Jardine says: 19 January, 2017 at 12:20 am:
” … If I am honest- I am pretty fed up with my party not nailing this. And I am raging that trade organisations like the Scotch Whisky Association are not screaming for indy when 90% of their members surveyed were against brexit. What are they waiting for? We are the largest producer of spirits in Europe with whisky alone (without even considering gin) by far and the idea that brexit represents an opportunity for this vast export based industry is a fantasy. What are they waiting for?”
No big mystery there, Tam. The answer is obviously just a one word answer They wait for –“DIAGIO.”
Who are, of course, registered as a London, (England), Head Office company.
May says parliament (she means WM) will get to vote on the final deal (she means A50 divorce settlement, not trade).
Having read Nana’s links, I do wonder if there will even be a divorce settlement agreed by negotiations. It could break down and end up in the courts.
Trade? It also seems likely that trade talks will never begin within the two years.
If divorce talks fail, there would be no extension to the two years. Then the UK would be out with nothing.
But hey ho, that would be the perfect storm to call IndyRef2!
I saw this mentioned but don’t think a link was made to it, and it was hard to find on the website:
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15032263.BBC_fails_to_moderate_racist_and_homophobic_comments_on_website/
Good to see The National taking a stand against bigotry and worse on the BBC website – and the posts left and not deleted. Isn’t it just a surprise the BBC itself don’t have the same principles?
Globular Britain- spherical, spinning itself into ever decreasing density.
Keep up the good work Robert Peffers.
The ancient respect, that Scotland gleaned by righteously opposing English hegemony and imperialism, before empire/union..
..is the difference.
Our sovereignty was defined BEFORE the modern ERA, making us right – but on the wrong side of, an ABUSIVE relationship created by constitutional lawyers from a ‘partner’ nation.
Brian Powell says:
18 January, 2017 at 9:25 pm
Perhaps in the next Independence poll there should be a question: ‘what the bloody hell do you think is going to happen if we stay in the UK you gutless wretch?’
Perfect! That’s the question I want on the ballot paper.
@Robert Peffers
On the other hand, the full title is the United Kingdom of Breat Britain and Northern Ireland, so if Britain exits then Northern Ireland is left behind. Perhaps we can just join with Northern Ireland amd let the others go their own way. Job done.
Unfortunately the European project was always going to be doomed to failure for England it was just a matter of time until Americas Arse became kissable again
Foreign folk and their languages you see they just could never get the hang of them
Whereas Americans like Trump are just folks like them
Yup!
“Breat Britain”?
I’m sorry, that was a typo for Brat Britain.
@ Robert Peffers Sd’s statement is telling … … [We’ve been here before with you Robert]. … Sd’s just one of the many thousand’s of Agent Provocateurs in Scotland at this time.
“We’ve been here before with you”
You and whose army, son?
yesindyref2 @10-24am
Thanks, yes, that was the article I meant about the National having a go at the BBC – I was on a tablet at the time I wrote it, last night, and couldn’t link.
Good to see at least one newspaper willing to have a go at BBC Scotland – others please note (sorry, wishful thinking there!!).
I have been trying, and failing, to post a link, but, there is a hilarious You Tube clip of Rowan Atkinson, as Captain the Lord Edmund Blackadder of the Royal Regiment of Shirkers addressing a Royal Command Performance in, I think 2000.
In it, Blackadder’s cunning plan to restore England’s greatness is to invade France. He reckons, England was a world power from Agincourt right up until they: “coseyed-up to the garlic chewers”.
Is this maybe from whence Boris took his cue for his attack on President Hollande?
Robert Peffers
Hi Robert. I had read Diageo changing position- politics is one thing but business is more like a force of nature. They will move head office – how can they not? Last thing I read on Diageo they were saying they would not oppose indy if Scotland could stay in the EU.
But not opposing is a different beast to actively supporting.
Just another thought: Mother Theresa seems to think post-Brexit England will get a favourable deal from Mr Trump.
She is putting her faith in a protectionist American president with a Scottish mother and a German father doing England a favour.
Was her mother’s family name Baldrick by any chance?
The troll says..
..’the term Little Englander is as lazy and stereotypical and insulting as the notion of a typical Scot being a p****d up, toothless drunk laying face down in a gutter in Sauchiehall Street.
Fair enough, your opinion is noted as such..however, add alcohol to a ‘Little Englander’ in any definition you make, and he becomes a danger to others, notjust himself.
Scotland’s parliament has made efforts to reverse STEREOTYPICAL SELF HARM.
Your ‘nation’ hasn’t, allowing zenophobia to rule it’s heart..with sick Tory Cult bum boys dishing out inequality while little Englanders are still fighting the Germans.
Robert Peffers @ 9.08
While I can’t dispute (and Totally agree with) your argument.
It’s is also an argument worth being made and should most definitely be getting pushed at every opportunity in the EU.
But there is another side to it Robert!!!
Both these Kingdom are signed up to a TREATY.
It was while still under this Treaty… Rightly or Wrongly…That the agreements to include both Kingdom’s in the EU were drawn up and rattfied.
During the negotiations this issue was not raised,and the representatives of Scottish Soverenty (MPs),did not and have not indicated that the accuracy of Treaty made with the EU was in doubt, because of the terminology used.
This terminology is commonaly used when referencing the Two Kingdom’s,as is the case,in many instances,over many years.
It has been by habit and repute that Westminster is the body that signed International Treaty’s,and this has gone uncontested by the Scottish Electorate (the leagal Sovereigns) on many occasions and for a great length of time.
To argue that one signature actually contains within it, something other than one signature and have that argument accepted could potentially put all other International agreements in doubt, this is probably not in anyone’s interests.
And there is a recognised distinction between a Political argument and a legal one.
So while both arguments are not factually wrong…They are arguments,and both have merit.
This, I think, is why the points you raised are as I have said worth pointing out,but, also why they can’t be too heavily relied upon.
To do so at this stage would only draw an opinion from whomever was being persuaded, to take our view would put so many other agreements in doubt,well all of them really.
Everything Westminster ever signed.
The argument against taking that positionis a powerful one,and much of law is based upon “what a reasonable man can assume”, (although I would argue that there’s no such thing as a reasonable man,but that’s a different conversation) and not forgetting that part of Westminster’s Constutional arrangements already included the “by habit and repute” phrase.
So this is mibbi why we don’t see too much emphasis on the status of who has the right to do what?
@DerekM says: 19 January, 2017 at 12:28 am:
“Sovereignty is not some tangible thing you can see or grab Joemcg it is an idea and as it spreads more people come to understand what it means which is simply the right to choose if we so wish.”
Great post DerekM but a couple of wee corrections. Sovereignty is also the hereditary legal right to rule and is the basis of both the Scottish and English Legal systems.
In England, (the kingdom), legal sovereignty still rests with the Monarchy of England but they were forced, (in 1688), to legally delegate their powers to the Parliament of England, (the Kingdom). That was NOT the same thing as the Westminster Parliament of the United Kingdom. It isn’t even the same parliament building as the original one burned to the ground and was rebuilt with United Kingdom funding.
In Scotland, in 1320, the then international authority accepted that the people of Scotland, and not their monarchy, were legally sovereign. Nothing has changed that law since 1320, and the Treaty of Union agrees that both legal systems should always remain independent of each other and Westminster has ignored that too.
Westminster simple does not have legal authority to change that unless they specifically have the authorisation of a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland. There have been several Scottish Claims of right simply ignored by Westminster.
This is what the decision of the Supreme Court is set to announce very soon. Does Westminster have the sovereign right to overrule the legally sovereignty of the people of Scotland. Except the real facts are that the Supreme Court could be challenged as being a Westminster illegal set up anyway you look at them. We are about to find out.
” … Which we will demonstrate by holding indyref2 and telling westminster and the UK to do one as soon as Mayhem signs A50.
Our problem in the past was we never used it and just accepted the answer no from the UK and got back in the box,but now we do not.”
Not quite, DerekM. There have been several Scottish Claim of Rights made. All just ignored by Westminster. The last one, laughably, has on it the signatures of Donald Dewar, Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling. Not to mention all but a very few Scottish MPs and MSPs.
I wonder what all the Leave-voting English football fans will make of Brexit when tougher immigration laws mean all the big-money foreign imports leave the English Premiership; then Sky pull the plug and, forced to use 100% English teams, Chelsea, Manchester United, Liverpool etc become about as much use in Europe as a three-pin plug or the Old Firm.
Andrew McLean says:
18 January, 2017 at 4:35 pm
“Sensible Dave
Scotland is not a region of the UK, it is a sovereign nation.
It has its own Parliament and makes its own laws.”
———-
That’s what it comes down to.
It could be said that we are an equal UK in terms of individuals.. that every individual has the same opportunity.
But when seen in terms of the nations of the UK, it’s pretty clear which one comes off best – with power, business, people and resources sucked into London and the south of England.
There is an argument that within a union of nations, Scotland has the right to special rights and conditions compared to cities or regions. That was the message given to NO voters in 2014. “A valued and equal partner in the UK”.. “The best of both worlds.”
So when that doesn’t happen, it seems like the natural solution is for Scotland to govern itself and take advantages of the opportunities available to nation states over regions.
And then to reach new agreements from a position of power.
As mentioned above the SWA are in thrall to Diageo, and if they could make their products elsewhere,they certainly would. As a former employee of this company,I remember being told around eight or nine years ago that if they could move the bottling operations abroad they would.Scotland is a long way behind profit in their thinking as not long after the bottling hall in Kilmarnock was closed throwing 600+ employees out of work.
The use of temporary workers by Diageo is highly dubious at best and downright scandalous at worst also, never mind small companies playing the employment system, the multinationals are just as bad.
Confucius say. Learn the ways of the Stoat if you want to track a Weasel in Winter.
This is getting a wee bit of traction now…pass it on.
‘Should David Mundell resign?’
435 votes cast, 98% Yes:
https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257
Sassenach @10.43
re offensive comments
I agree, it’s great that at least one paper is taking on the BBC for allowing offensive remarks to remain ‘for too long’ but it beggars the question ‘Why allow them in the first place?’
Or is this bait to increase online usage?
Any article about Nicola, Andy Murray, Scottish Politics, Brexit, SNP, and many other ‘Scottish’ subjects is regularly subjected to a stream of venom that at times is astonishing in its vitriol.
Definitely something needing to be addressed. In the past I’ve tried to report comments to mediators but now, on most sites, you have to sign up first and that deters me.
Well done ‘The National’ for taking it on, especially from the BBC.
However, it is a problem that almost every online media outlet needs to tackle.
A recent road-rage case which came up before Scottish court resulted in the accused being charged with a racist offence for making derogatory remarks about the accent of the English boyfriend of the female driver on the receiving end of the road rage.
So, spoken ‘anti-english racism’ can now incur a penalty in Scotland. Is that reciprocated?
How long till online abusive remarks catch up?
BJ 10:07 am
You wrote “He’s rattled Robert. Love your posts.”
…. that is how he ends up embarrassing and disgracing himself – by being encouraged by the likes of you BJ.
If by “rattled” you mean frustrated that the pseudo-intelligentsia like Peffers feel that it is OK to insult, pigeon hole, racially stereotype millions of my country folk – because it suits his political aims – then yes.
Is that a victory for you?
Socrates @10.07
I read that Mike Russell has certainly arrived for Brexit talks in fighting spirit saying that he thought T May’s speech on EU exit has ‘breached the terms’ of the joint national council due to meet today saying “the Scottish Government was meant to be involved in decisions,not being told what to do.”
If your scenario goes ahead then T May, who has seen the breakdown of power sharing in N. Ireland might also witness the break up of power ‘sharing’ at WM too.
Scotland divorces England.
As we are the Kingdom who inherited England in 1606 (?) it would be only right and proper for us to separate from them on grounds of ‘unreasonable behaviour’ which we have endured this 300 years past.
Maybe, just maybe, the UK Supreme Court will beat us to it!
It feels a bit like there’s another Christmas coming next week…
Off to make a cup of tea and get settled for FMQ’s shortly.
@ Ian, couldnae vote fur Munnell as not a Twitterer.
As far as I can discover there are no accurate figures for cross border trade with England, how could there be, what are the trade figures between Glasgow & Edinburgh? it’s bollox. Yet Davidson spouts this stuff continually. Just as a matter of interest, before the Union our exports went through Veere,
http://www.veere-schotland.nl/gb/Content/Historical_links.shtml
@Sensibledave,
Ha ha ha. You are most definitely rattled. When on the back foot ,you attack.
Stick to condescension. It suits you better.
@Scot Finlayson says:19 January, 2017 at 1:03 am:
“back of the class Robert,1746,”
“had my DNA tested and (Fathers side) it seems my biggest % of hits (26%) was in the French/Spanish borders then Sco, Norw,Ire,Ital,greece/macedonia.”
Nah! Individuals will always show we are, and seem to have always been, a nation of mongrels.
The thing is that the majority trend overrules individuals. I’ll quote you a very strange example.
A BBC Scotland series was going around Scotland. genetically testing people in different areas and broadcasting their discussions of the results with individuals. If memory serves it was called, “Who are the Scots”, or something along those lines.
They arrived in the Northern Isles and some strange genetic results turned up. These were mainly fairly elderly females. Their DNA showed they were strongly descended from North American Inuit,(Eskimo), peoples.
So how come there is a strain of North American Inuit in Orkney and Shetland? The answer was found after extensive family research. The Hudson Bay Company had been recruiting Scots since the company’s inception and were still recruiting Scots in the early 1990s.
These recruited traders and trappers led a rather dangerous life and unlike the English North American settlers they did not set about attempting to eradicate the native North Americans and scalp them.
Yes, the whites it was who began scalping the, “Indians”, and wearing the scalps on their belts as trophies.
What the Scots, Irish and Welsh tended to do was convert the natives to Christianity and to marry the native women.
The mortality rate among traders was high and the Hudson Bay Company, in their wisdom, would ship the deceased trapper’s families, “Home”, to a land they had never known or set foot upon.
So there now is a fairly big faction of Inuit blood in the Scottish Highlands and Islands Gene pool.
By the way the main way of grading our descent is via the female line. I suppose this may be because we mainly all know exactly who our mothers are but we can only usually have the word of the male person who is registered as the father on our birth certificate.
So there you go. The gene pool must of necessity rely upon the main trends and treat individuals as only individuals.
A dud link for Veere, try this,
https://notesfromcamelidcountry.net/2015/09/20/veere-twinned-with-scotland
Can someone tell me who the ranting raving person was on Scotland Tonight he should have been cut off I don’t mind the SNP being criticized but he really went over the top.
I also posted this link in Off Topic worth a read if you don’t go there.
https://on.rt.com/80oo
No change with Ruthie at FMQs nil Score FM delivered her answer’s with Precision
O/T
Union Jackie thinks the BBC in Scotland is the “most trusted news provider” for Scots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jXtYE8pPTU&feature=youtu.be
Aye sure, Union Jackie – we believe you, millions wouldn’t:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsHsQSL1m5o
Now – away and chase yerself, hen!
SNP Baaaaaddddd!
Disgraceful beating-up of hapless Ruthie Tank Commander by the FM at FMQ. How much longer must we put-up with this disgraceful maltreatment of the apparently mentally handicapped Ms Davidson?
@K1 says: 19 January, 2017 at 2:05 am:
” … disgraceful and it’s as clear as a bell that it’s fluffy’s voice making that remark.”
Remember too that the Hansard records will give a text report of everything said in the Westminster Parliament.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/
Is a Little Englander a blue collar factory worker living in a council house in say, Newcastle – that left school at 15 and never had the chance at higher education – or are they, say, senior manager who enjoyed a very comfortable life, university educated, lives in a nice detached house in say, South Oxfordshire?”
Yes, in all likelihood.
Also sensible, there are no “blue collar factory worker living in a council house in say, Newcastle” left. They have voted tory in their snatcher thatcher rise to power, all wrapped up in union jacks and that was the end of the English blue collar.
Same for Scotland, total destruction of blue collar industry, then, take your hand outs from generous little Englanders, shut your mouths, vote NO, probably isn’t going to cut it much longer little Englander sensibledave.
BBC Politics show for lunch right the noo, two tory tosspots, Ligger Neil, Whatisface Carswell, pounding away for little Englanders across teamGB. Its how it works, unbiasedly say BBC gimps.
Ode Tae Davey Boy
His twisted mind it wove
A tale so rotten to behold
The lies he spoke so large
Would fill an English barge
But still he fumed and stuttered
Wee Davey’s bile was bitter
Wi contempt his scorn did pour
From the deep of his running sore
He couldnae help himsel’ ye see
His world wis torn tae pieces
No longer could he contain
His explosive burst of faeces
We all walked past with pity
Head’s turned away with shame
For Davey boy’s embarrassment
Wis surely borne of pain
He’s lost his way completely now
It’s plain for all tae see
Wee Davey’s beam within his eye
Is made of bigotry
So let us all just walk away
And let him well alone
For the poison deep within him
Has found its only home
Re;Socrates mcsporran
R.Davidson I have no time for, she has no interest it seems in standing up for Scotland even if she was allowed to by her masters in london. But, let’s not use terms like ‘mentally handicapped’, that went out with the ark thankfully, and let’s not stoop to Trumps level anyway.
Keeping it respectful, and keeping our integrity, no matter how incensed we feel about the unionists’ dreadful attitude towards Scotland and the people of Scotland.
@Breeks says: 19 January, 2017 at 2:45 am:
“Rock, if you don’t have sovereignty, a vote for anything is just an opinion poll. It is sovereignty which empowers it to become a decision, because sovereignty IS the power to make a decision.of the truth.”
Great post, Breeks and it says something I often neglect to say.
Sovereignty is not only a legal fact but is also a nations people’s perception of their actual powers to assert their wishes as a nation. The Trouble with the United Kingdom system is that it not only projects the lie that the United Kingdom is a country and a nation but also spreads the lie that it is Britain.
It is not a country, it is four countries. It is not a nation it is two nations, (or arguably perhaps even four nations). It most certainly is not all of Britain.
Thus there cannot ever be a, “Brexit”, because Britain is not the member state in the EU and Britain has four non-UK parliamentary administrations – three non-UK government Personal Crown Protectorates and a Republic. A Republic, by definition, cannot be part of a Monarchy.
BBC Politics show for lunch right the noo, two tory tosspots, Ligger Neil, Whatisface Carswell, currently getting their tory arses handed to them by, Joanna Cherry QC MP, Flo Jo!
Ligger Neil, the little Englander’s little Englander, from er, Paisley .
http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/joanna-cherry/4419
Is outstanding!
FMQ’s
12.25 Nicola expounding on Brexit effects on Scotland in answer to Patrick Harvie’s question.
Describing TMay’s response to the Scot Gov paper and the concept of Scotland as an equal partner in the UK as lip service.
12.35 will let you see Murdo Fraser getting his rear end well and truly skelped! Interesting to see how this will be reported!
Seems Scotland still has it’s uses for ” The Donald”
NEW YORK (AP) — Donald Trump has vowed his company will do “no new foreign deals” while he is president. But he’s left “new” and “deals” open to interpretation. Now those words are drawing scrutiny as his company confirms plans to expand its golf resort near Aberdeen, Scotland, raising concerns about conflicts of interest.
I’ve checked Hansard Robert, the ‘I don’t care’ is not on the Hansard record. Cause he shouted it from the ‘sitting down’ position I’d imagine it’s not ‘officially’ recorded?
Anyone else wondering why the presiding Officer did not silence the loud and prolonged background braying during the First Minister’s answers during First Minister’s Questions?
The man is a total waste of parliamentary time, money and energy.
Not only does his obvious anti-SNP bias make a nonsense of the Office of Presiding Officer but it impacts upon the voters who are interested in Scottish politics hearing the truth of what happens in the chamber for we most certainly are not going to get the truth from the BBC or other Scottish MSM.
I think I saw somewhere that the zoomer on STV last night declaring The Donald as the bigliest President ever actually works for a newspaper owned by Trump’s son-in-law.
If so STV were not diligent in their research.
Artyhetty
Your scolding accepted. I did think twice before I suggested the Tank Commander might be a sandwich short of a picnic, but, I had to decide – is she deliberately lying and misunderstanding things, or, is she incapable of understanding what is going on?
I came down on the side of incomprehension, a form of mental handicap.
Now over the 500 mark –
‘Should David Mundell resign?’
502 votes, 98% Yes
https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257
@sensibledave 9.19
‘Is a Little Englander a blue collar factory worker living in a council house in say, Newcastle – that left school at 15 and never had the chance at higher education – or are they, say, senior manager who enjoyed a very comfortable life, university educated, lives in a nice detached house in say, South Oxfordshire?’
Eh?
The Little Englander is both these categories and everything in between.
It is a national superiority complex and latent xenophobia which is found in Boris Johnston and the English sink estate dweller alike.
It is a frame of mind.
It is British Nationalism,and you have it in spades.
A great many of your and sadly my own countrymen are riddled with it.
Take wee Micky Gove for example(maybe you’d be bit big for him if we are to believe you),or Liam Fox,both ‘Scots’ but they are just like you.
You are one.
All Little Englanders together with your little Uncle Jock brethren.
Ruth Davidson is not a credible person says David Clegg
But will he put that on the front page of the Daily Record
Although David Clegg seemed to think the FM was under pressure today
I must have been watching a different FMQs or maybe a space one or my telly was translating events differently
just for me
I think sometimes it gets forgotten how Scotland and England actually voted in the 2015 general election. Yes, we all know 50% Scots voted SNP and that makes us different, with different views on the world.
Perhaps this is the BIG difference …
England
Cons 41.0%
UKIP 14.1%
Scotland
Cons 14.9%
UKIP 1.6%
… in England 55.1% of voters opted for hard and ultra right parties, in Scotland it was only 16.5%.
Consider anti immigration, Brexit, looking towards American, etc, etc … all those beguilingly simplistic right policies and attitudes. Is it any wonder England has dragged us to where we are today?
OK, not everyone is the same. There are social democrats and socialists in England. There are fair and decent people. But 55.1% putting an X beside fairly far right parties!?
We need to save ourselves from this madness.
Interesting that there was more substantive discussion of Brexit in Beattie’s Media Review with Cosgrove/O’Neill than there was in FMQs.
Meg merrilees Re NI, yes. I understand that, ok Mcguiness is not well and maybe decided he had enough, however why did did they not just replace him, they knew that the DuP would renominate Foster, they also know that voting is along sectarian lines so the Protestant voters are not going to abandon the DUP , therefore we are going back to stalemate after the elections or that’s what it looks like to me, which will end up with Direct London Rule!
Brexit: UK Government warned Scotland ‘must be equal partner’
http://archive.is/00oK9
Hi Sensibledave,
FFS, are you still here convincing everyone that you don’t care whether Scotland gets independence or not?
Should Scotland be an independent country?
It’s been a couple of years now and you still refuse to answer that question for fear of losing the facade of neutrality. You don’t seem to realise, that mask slipped a long time ago.
galamcennalath 1:31 pm
You wrote: “OK, not everyone is the same. There are social democrats and socialists in England. There are fair and decent people. But 55.1% putting an X beside fairly far right parties!?”
Ah galamcennalath, You make a very strong point about the democratic wishes of 55% of a populace. Touche!
@K1 says: 19 January, 2017 at 12:55 pm:
“I’ve checked Hansard Robert, the ‘I don’t care’ is not on the Hansard record. Cause he shouted it from the ‘sitting down’ position I’d imagine it’s not ‘officially’ recorded.”
More probably not recorder yet as there is, in any case, a delay before the final Hansard record is published on the Parliamentary Website.
My own problems are that I’m still trying to get my full system back up and running again. It’s a long story but the full system has 4 Smart TVs, plus DVD/Blu-ray burners, a dedicated Blu-ray PVR, a dedicated DVD recorder, an Xbox 360 and four computers. One computer, a home built big beast of a desktop, with lots of memory, Hard disks, DVD/Blu-ray optical drives and USB and other devices.
I used this big desktop to store and edit video/photo and audio stuff and to run my YouTube account It was also a server for the other three machines that are all top of the range laptops. These were all connected together in a hard wired home Ethernet system.
I’m still in the process of rewiring the home-net but hit problems with both Microsoft and my ISP. Who somehow had mixed up the newest laptop with the big desktop and thought the desktop machine was not registered with Microsoft but thought the new laptop was the desktop so I couldn’t register that as Microsoft thought it the desktop and thus illegal.
So I couldn’t use the desktop as they had shut me out of the operating system and because they though the new laptop was the desktop machine, I couldn’t register that to get the operating system registered.
It took ages to get it sorted out. So long that the big machine was running Vista and that is now out of date and I’ll need to download Windows 10 and install and register that.
So my old auto-recording of certain political programmes then editing them to upload on YouTube is out until I get the rest of the home-net run and connected.
I used to auto record things like FMQ’s and then select bits of them to make YouTube videos in support of independence. I’m close to getting things running properly again.
England
Cons 41.0%
UKIP 14.1%
Scotland
Cons 14.9%
UKIP 1.6%
Aye. And who’s actually in charge of Scotland, Cons 14.9% and that sneaky shit the Fluffster.
O/T
WATCH: Professor Michael Dougan analyses Theresa May’s Brexit speech
https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2017/01/19/watch-professor-michael-dougan-analyses-theresa-mays-brexit-speech/
Breastplate 1:38 pm
You wrote for the umpteenth time ….
“Should Scotland be an independent country?
It’s been a couple of years now and you still refuse to answer that question for fear of losing the facade of neutrality. You don’t seem to realise, that mask slipped a long time ago.”
… and for the umpteenth time I will answer your question (although I suspect you too dim to understand) …
Yes if the majority of Scots want it. No if they don’t. I am happy either way and my view doesn’t count anyway.
Do you see any ambiguity in that answer Breastplate?????? I sthere any part of that you do not understand. Is it that you need me to want you (as someone once wrote)?
I’m all for democracy. I think it is good thing. What’s your position?
I’m all for democracy. I think it is good thing. What’s your position?
You’re 110% No sensible. Just one more sneaky unionist shit.
Here’s a first
Andrew Neil agrees with Joanna that BT made a promise to Scotland regarding the EU which has been broken. Therefore circumstances have changed.
https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/822062859836391425
heedtracker says:
The democratic deficit is truly beyond expletives.
England voted to leave the EU, England voted fo become a sub fascist state. Their democratic will.
Why can’t they just get on with it and leave us to take our own path? They should be the ones declaring this Union over and beyond reconciliation. Why do we have to fight to get out?
Sensibledave,
I’m sorry if this is difficult for you.
You are not answering the question, you are quite clearly stating that you would have others answer it for you.
Once again, I apologise if you can’t quite grasp that, and I mean that from the heart of my bottom.
Nana 1.56
…. Is there anyone left who thinks that the result of the EU referendum means that the “circumstances” haven’t changed?
It seems pretty clear to me that If Scots (i.e. a majority thereof) don’t want to to leave the EU then they need to leave the UK.
Ms Sturgeon said she wants a soft Brexit and I think we can agree that is not going to happen.
She said pretty clearly that she wasn’t bluffing when she talked about indyref2 as a response to not getting her way on a soft Brexit.
Is she in any doubt now that we are going out of the single market now? Wasn’t that a red line?
Why isn’t she already organising indyref2? Clearly I don’t know so I am guessing. Is it because she thinks a majority of Scottish voters will not want to leave the UK?
Is it democracy getting in the way again?
Nana says:
19 January, 2017 at 1:56 pm
Here’s a first
Andrew Neil agrees with Joanna that BT made a promise to Scotland regarding the EU which has been broken. Therefore circumstances have changed.
I saw that too. Andrew was an actual “chair” in the debate, shock. He’s great when he does do the even handed thing. Although you could see he knew he was up against an MP who had all the facts n stats, and ready to get stuck in.
Much like your average WoS reader:D
Another old tosser in action. So much for workers solidarity Lab style. Old JC’s certainly NOT the lefty everyone thought he was, because he was always sayin what a lefty he was, maybe.
Politics
Politics live with Andrew Sparrow
Jeremy Corbyn says he will order Labour MPs to vote in favour of triggering article 50 – Politics live
It is an interesting tack the supposedly Scottish press are now taking. Fully emboldened by the world’s outrage at Trump, they are seeking parallels with the martyrdom of Daisley. They cannot be challenged in any way and anyone who does seeks to destroy free speech and democracy.
Haggerty this morning sought to continue to demonise Wings by comparing him to Spanner. My opinion is that ‘Angry Salmond’, long beloved pet of the chattering Indys, is a much better comparison – increasingly unfunny and verging on downright creepy in some of their Twitter output. Yet no outrage from Haggerty?
That their politics, which appears to be Green/Rise matches that of CommonSpace, Haggerty etc and they have a column in the National is, I’m sure, purely coincidental.
… and, in this age of post truth, fake news and bald faced hypocrisy…
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/snp-mps-fake-news/
Oh dear!
It’s on the Hansard record Robert:
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2017-01-18/debates/83A397AC-CCA8-4073-910D-D5972F4714F3/ExitingTheEU
—————–
Ye can see what papers he’s been reading if that’s the level of his comprehension: not a fucking clue.
Why do we have to fight to get out?
Because in 2014 a majority of the people of Scotland (55%) voted to remain with the UK.
However, a larger majority (62%) voted to remain with the EU.
It is looking increasingly likely that Scotland will not be able to remain with both Unions.
The 62% need to decide which Union is more important to them.
Scotland was told by Better Togeher in 2014 that voting YES was the way to end our EU citizenship and that a NO vote was the only way to secure it. And NO won the debate.
But Scotland now finds itself being taken out of the EU as a result of that NO vote.
And is precisely because of this perverted outcome that the indy question must be asked again.
Nana says:
Gosh. Neil mumbling at bit. Speaking grudgingly, perhaps. But he did accept the reality of the situation.
Carswell is a twit. Yes, more people voted to stay in the UK+EU in 2014 than in the EU in 2016. But thanks to nutters like him, that UK+EU option has been flushed away forever. Of course circumstances have changed!
The far right BritNats need to accept, even just privately, that they have nullified the 2014 result.
Question. If BT had said in 2014 that a NO vote probably means Brexit, would they have won?
Rhetorical really.
Today’s First Minister’s Questions.
Now Archived,and available to watch on Scottish Parliament TV:
http://tinyurl.com/z439kja
please ,please ,,please for fk/s sake stop arguing with the resident arse he will go away, Eventuality ! . stop feeding him because his rubbish is just taking up your valuable time and energy .just a thought .
@Heedtracker
Here’s another clip from the daily politics show
https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/822066101408256000
Davey boy?
Really? That’s ‘fake’ news. He’s ‘using quotes to paraphrase the ‘essence’ of what she said’.
What he tweeted was this:
http://archive.is/hLVNG/4e203476f88b34339a51887386746d7cafc18f15.png
Let me help you further, his exact tweet was:
‘In her own words this is what Theresa May said a (hashtag)HardBrexit would mean* for the people of of the UK’
This is what you ran onto Wings with, archived: http://archive.is/hLVNG, which is ‘fake news’
You are a complete buffoon Davey boy. LOL.
*my bold
Indy Ref2 Ballot Paper
Scotland, an Independent European Country, AYE !!!!!!!!
or
Scotland, an English Colony. Nae chance.
Roll on Indyref2 2018, meantime some unfinished business to take care of in May 2017.
@K1
One glance at the Hansard got my blood boiling. David Davis referring to how Adam smith wouldn’t approve of ‘socialist protectionism of the Scottish govt.
The his the govt that is happy to underwrite bankers bonuses with austerity for the rest of us.
Actually Adam smith’s reference to ‘free’ market meant free of the rentier class – the banks and speculators – unearned income.
This is the standard of economic acumen of what’s leading the UK.
I know ScottieDog, they rewrite and twist everything to suit their ideology. We need out.
@Nana re Adra agreeing with Joanna Cherry.
Since his total meltdown on twitter saying – his wages pay for cybernats unemployment benefit – cos you know we all are – he has maybe calmed down and is trying to make amends
Theresa May “The Vote was simply to take back control and make decisions for ourselves”
If I said the same about Scotland the Tories would be frothing at the mouth about evil separatists.
We are indeed second class unless we open our eyes.
‘Should Mundell resign?’
Currently 559 votes, 98% Yes.
I don’t do Facebook.
Can Wingers who do please give this a punt?
Cheers! 🙂
https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257
@Liz
Oh I wouldn’t go that far Liz. More likely he knew he was up against a formidable Joanna Cherry MP. She is terrific.
@Ian Brotherhood
I’ve asked Cadogan to maybe put it on informScotalnd facebook page.
I know he’s a bit busy with the advans etc right now so we’ll see.
Robert Peffers a post by Derek Bateman just now that might interest you have a wee look .
Donald Cameron, low-wattage Tory MSP actually had the brass neck to speak out on Crofting Law recently. You might think that he’d have had the good sense to duck that particular issue as his family evicted hundreds of their tenants in Lochaber, to take ship or starve. The Countess of Sutherland will be invited to Holyrood next to shove her oar in!
@Nana –
Cheers, ye’re a gem.
It’s interesting that the poll has been at 98% Yes pretty much since I put it up last night – yoon Twitterers either can’t be bothered, or are ignoring it entirely.
Fair enough, but if it goes over 1000 then it’ll be highly embarrassing to see that 98% still in place.
We’ll see…six days to go.
🙂
@sensibledave says: 19 January, 2017 at 1:48 pm:
Oh! Dear! Here we go again!
sensibledave, you pose the question, “I sthere any part of that you do not understand.”
Which beggars the obvious question, “all of what are we supposed to understand”
You make no sense whatsoever. I concede that you probably imagine your points are clear but they do not make sense in the light of the actuality that is the Westminster parliamentary set-up.
You claim this, “I’m all for democracy. I think it is good thing.” However, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because there is nothing democratic about the Westminster Parliament.
I’ve posted enough times the history behind all this but the situation was that in 1603 there was only a personal union of the crowns by James I of England & VI of Scotland. No United Kingdom was achieved.
In 1688 England’s parliament revolted against their monarchy and imported the joint monarchs of William & Mary. This could not affect Scotland as there was no United Kingdom but England assumed there was. The English parliament forced their monarchy to legally delegate their sovereignty to the English Parliament but by assuming this also applied to the Independent Kingdom of Scotland they began the Jacobite Uprisings and that is why they forced the Scottish Kingdom to sign the Treaty of Union of 1707.
So the start of the United Kingdom was 1 May 1707 and it only had two partner Kingdoms. The English Parliament was would up and the Scots parliament prorogued. The Treaty stipulates that that Scots law and English law are sacrosanct in perpetuity.
Thus the new parliament at the Palace of Westminster was NOT the parliament of the Kingdom of England and neither was it the Parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland.
It is the joint Parliament of a United Kingdom of two only kingdom partners and they are equally sovereign.
So sensibledave – just what is democratic at today’s Westminster parliament that while it calls itself the Parliament of the United Kingdom is the de facto parliament of the country of England that is thus devolving the country of England’s assumed powers to three other United Kingdom countries that it treats as underlings and bars from what it claims are English Only matters by use of EVEL in the de facto parliament of England.
Democratic my arse! It is nothing short of totally illegal forced government of a sovereign people.
Had a look at that Guardian site, & folks think Rock is a Zoomer? Post-independence Scotland is going to have wan helluva disgruntled neighbour. The Gaza Strip’s about it!
So looks like the Supreme Court ruling will uphold the division court’s ruling. Corbyn’s issued a three line whip to go along with triggering A50. So they already know what’s coming. It seems clear that the establishment are circling their horses. There is no ‘Labour’ party in Scotland or England.
If this is the case that the High Court’s decision is upheld where does that leave us?
Robert P. and DerekM-actions speak louder than words, your posts are just bluster I’m afraid. WM do not recognise us as sovereign or they would not be completely ignoring our EU proposals. I suggest you both look up the true meaning of sovereignty before you post long winded meaningless verbal diarrhoea.
Genuinely made masel’ laugh there wi ‘circling their horses’ after posting. Where’s their wagons a wunner? 🙂
K1
“Genuinely made masel’ laugh there wi ‘circling their horses’ after posting. Where’s their wagons a wunner? ?”
Still in the Laager of Lamont.
@heedtracker@ 2.16.
If dear old corbyn ORDERS his MP’s vote for Article 50, then surely there should be a MASSIVE rebellion, bearing in mind that around 170 Labour MP’s indulged themselves with that vote of no confidence in his leadership.
Maybe corbyn is trying some reverse phsycology on them ?
(Tongue in cheek).
If Joe, they acknowledged and ‘acted’ on our EU proposals, the game’s a ‘bogey’, don’t you see that? Dinnae be so bitter man, it’s no guid for yer health.
K1
“Genuinely made masel’ laugh there wi ‘circling their horses’ after posting. Where’s their wagons a wunner? ?”
Still in the Laager of Lamont.
@sensibledave
Your futility and deceit in casting anti-English aspersions about a regular poster are exceeded only by your total ignorance about the expression “Little Englander”.
Here’s some edification to try to get you started, first steps in getting an education.
Little Englander: “Originally it applied to a wing of the Liberal Party opposed to expansion of the British Empire in the 19th century, who wanted “England” to extend no farther than the borders of the United Kingdom. In the late 18th and 19th Centuries the term was used for those Englishmen who looked upon the colonies of the British Empire as economically burdensome and wished the granting of self-government as quickly as possible”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander
You can read the rest yourself, should keep you busy for a couple of days. Robert Peffers’ use of the term in relation to you seems totally apposite.
@K1
Can’t resist, hope the Rev’s hammers don’t get me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RghKdGn8h5A
Richard Murphy from Tax Research UK, worth a read:
Snippet:
‘So, the question is why isn’t this a precedent for Scotland? Why can’t it apply for its own Protocol 3 agreement with the EU now to survive England’s planned withdrawal, which would allow it to retain a relationship that might otherwise be lost? And don’t doubt that this must be plausible: I will be very surprised if the Crown Dependencies do not seek to do this, meaning that there will be a surfing part of the 1972 UK agreement to join the EU on which reliance could be placed by the UK nations other than England who could argue that they too should benefit in this way.
In that case an alliance of the governments of the Crown Dependencies, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could seek to explore this as a way to retain firm links with the EU even if England does not want them. Legally the mere existence of Protocol 3 and its successor clause has to make that a possibility.
Does anyone know why that reasoning might be wrong?’
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/01/19/it-may-be-legally-possible-for-scotland-to-stay-in-the-customs-union-and-even-the-single-market/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+org%2FlWWh+%28Tax+Research+UK+2%29
LOL Nana…just about sums it up! Wee bit o’ light relief tae 🙂
On the constitution Robert Peffers is indeed correct and the Trolls are completely and utterly wrong
The Trolls argument as is the English parliaments position is that because England consistently breaks the law and they’re bigger that somehow justifies their consistent breaking of the law
It’s pretty much how precedent works, we’ve always done it so it’s OK ask anybody
UK Governments have gotten away with this behaviour for hundreds of years basically because of power and might and it’s the very reason why there is now no longer a British Empire otherwise all the countries who managed to extricate themselves from the treacherous and murderous grip of the English Empire including the Americans who England is pursing it’s lips to suckle at it’s financial teet would have returned to the Empire from which these countries fought and died in their hundreds of thousands to escape from
The English Empire were and are, thugs, who dress themselves in the clothes of benign and benevolent tradition and Royalty but who have never honoured an agreement with any country ever, (and there’s your precedent M’lud what makes any country trust proven liars it’s their own fault not ours)
And the English rest their case (while preparing another one)
See how that works
From Ki’s link (3:31pm):
“…Wales … out with it…”? Em – didn’t Wales, along with England, vote to quit the EU? Or did I just imagine that?
O/T I have noticed that BBC Question Time never has an SNP rep on when Brexit is clearly the main topic of the week.
To-night is no exception and to add insult to injury the reputable Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael is on to put Scotland’s case.
An early bed for me.
@sensibledave says: 19 January, 2017 at 11:37 am:
“…. that is how he ends up embarrassing and disgracing himself – by being encouraged by the likes of you BJ.”
Yes sensibledave you are rattled. Which is why you trot out the lies and untrue implications.
“If by “rattled” you mean frustrated that the pseudo-intelligentsia like Peffers feel that it is OK to insult, pigeon hole, racially stereotype millions of my country folk – because it suits his political aims – then yes.
Is that a victory for you?”
When did you become, “Millions of your country folk”, dave.
I’ll reword that as you always seem rather hard of comprehension. Can you indicate exactly were I have denigrated the people of England and I include my definition of, “The people of England”, and I do mean the Kingdom of England, dave. “Those of any race, colour, creed or country of origin who are mainly resident in the three countries that comprise the Kingdom of England and who have registered as voters in the Kingdom of England.”
I can assure you I hold the normal people of England in the highest regard and have never wished them any harm whatsoever. In fact I married one of them once. Sadly my very much loved wife died quite young and was much missed.
So dave, please do not conflate my utter contempt for those, not confined by any means to the kingdom of England, who are abusing their own and my kingdoms best interests by their own greed and self interests.
You sensibledave are one such abuser and your sanctimonious outpourings on this forum need only be read to confirm that as a fact. Elsewhere on this particular thread you splatter your abuse all over the thread claiming you believe in democracy yet you oppose every decent idea of democracy on a regular basis.
The whole point of the Scottish independence movement has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with hate for the kingdom of England, the people of the Kingdom of England or indeed hate of anything else other than the Westminster Establishment, what it is, what it has always been and what it now is so intent upon doing.
By the way, sensibledave, I make no claims of being any form of, “Intelligentsia”. I seriously doubt you even know the definition of the word.
i.e. Intelligentsia – intellectuals or highly educated people as a group, especially when regarded as possessing culture and political influence.
I have neither a university degree nor other cultural attributes of the arts nor special political influence.
I do have a certain specialist knowledge of certain scientific and physics subjects but those are nothing to do with politics or the arts.
So, sensibledave, your accusations are spurious, wrong and spiteful as befits one of your Unionist and Little Englander persuasions.
@Sinky
They’re trolling for a reaction. What seem unaware of though is that Dimbleby and his ‘entertainment’ programme are singularly and particularly unimportant. It’s the broadcast equivalent of the Mail shit stirring the usual suspects.
We’ve moved beyond him and it.
They have nothing to say to us and nothing we’d want to hear anyway. (shrugs)
@Cactus at 7:31 am
Exactly what a friend and I have been saying.
Typical Tory attitude. They cannot understand why they should not be given special treatment.
This link has been given before but
http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_problem_with_the_english_england_doesn_t_want_to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882
Britnat media seems desperate for any possible hint of a future trade deal with, for example, Australia. The Aussie guy in Davos says Australia will do deals and play fair with both the [so-called] united kingdom and the EU after Article 50 is triggered. And the britnats go crazy! Desperate.
@Robert Peffers
Well said. It’s not the first time he’s tried to bring in an anti-english accusation on the sly, in his slimy insidious way, and I doubt it will be the last. Typical style for an Express poster.
@Dr Jim
It is one thing the Supreme Court might be considering, if it’s brave enough, the actual legality of things going way back. There are already precedents that contradict each other over the Act of Union, as the interventions made clear in their submissions, saying why one was a valid one to use, and another wasn’t.
If the UKSC does take its job totally seriously, it could be a startling judgement to come out whenever.
Prime Minister May announced the departure, the change without pain, the preservation of the habit still at the same time. This could not be done. Their “Manifest of Change” is one that works on Sundays and comes under the wheels on Monday.
Use your translate function for the rest of this article
http://www.heute.de/kommentar-schlieker-premierministerin-mays-manifest-wird-scheitern-46357044.html
Goodness me! Looking at the BBC website just now and there is an article titled “Difficult talks on UK Brexit approach”
It’s inviting comments BUT the comments are mostly genteel! Haven’t seen any off the scale in hate and bile as per usual…
How long will this last i wonder also notice that they seem to be accruing quite slowly… 318 in approx. 3 hours – normally there’s about a thousand by now.
But, but, but the English (establishment) need the attention – they don’t care if it’s love or hate, they need it. It makes them feel important! Consequently they do need it more than most! It is well known that arrogance and ignorance walk hand in hand. Don’t feed one and the other should disappear!
@Meg merrilees
Well done! The pro-Indy comments are receiving loads of upvotes now, and the moronic anti-SNP ones downvotes. That’s the way to do it. With dignity of course, unlike the other side.
@Meg merrilees
Someone at the beeb must have forgotten to deploy the hatebot.
As you say there’s usually a lot more bilious comments by now.
I wonder if Donalda read the national lol
Robert Peffers 4.10
The usual load of waffle from you Robert with the usual load of misdirection and insult.
You Wrote: “When did you become, “Millions of your country folk”, dave.
I speak on behalf of them because they do not know what you are saying about them! I live amongst them – you don’t! So much of what you write is based upon cheap shots and generalisations that are completely baseless. You sound off about Englanders, southerners, Westminster, the establishment, etc etc because you are too damned lazy to define a target – so you lump them all together and come up with stuff like “Little Englander”.
In the UK’s EU referendum 1.6 million Scots voted Remain. In London and the South East a majority (55%) of the 19 million voters also voted remain. Both sets of constituencies were outvoted elsewhere in the UK and the result is what it is – that is the only way that democracy can work for the whole of the UK – and that includes the Scots that recently voted to be in the UK.
You think it outrageous that a country that recently voted to remain part of the UK isn’t given a veto on what the rest of the UK does???!!!
So, instead of lashing out at your fellow country folk that disagree with you on the destiny of Scotland, you do your silly, cheap, baseless characterizations of good folk that didnt have a vote in your indyref.
DO you not see just how silly, inacurate, lazy you are. For someone so hung of on pedantic detail elsewhere you really do miss the big stuff Robert.
The guy is trolling and baiting with the same old rubbish. And when that doesn’t work, he tries the insult route. All to provoke an advers reaction. We have to wonder who he works for.
Yes, we welcome opposite views here – so long as they have been thought through, are genuinely held and are debated with civility.
Which is not the case with this presistent troll who has clearly wondered too far from his bridge and is intent merely in creating mischief, provoking hostility and generally disrupting the site. This is not someone who wishes to properly debate the constitutional issues of our times, but is determined to ignore every reasonable and well-constructed argument presented to him. He has no intention of listening to anything anyone here says to him or any facts they present to him.
IMHO he’s been given more than enough opportunity to behave and respond and discuss posts in a civil manner. But he just can’t help himself.
Personally I think the time to block this troll is well overdue.
Rev?
WOS archive links for the remainder of Feb-2013 now over on O/T.
I speak on behalf of them because they do not know what you are saying about them! I live amongst them – you don’t!
Its amazing how hard core cons pften have the ability to mind read everyone sensible. A lot of you also posses time travel ability and can say what’s going to happen in the future, its always a wondrous tory future too. You should be on stage sensible. the Amazing Sensibledave show, he’s sees all, knows all, and don’t talk back.
On subject of ridiculous hard core tory roasters like you sensible,
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/nancy-sinatra-responds-donald-trump-my-way-sang-us-presidential-inauguration-having-frank-sinatra-my-a7534701.html#gallery
Nana; Yesindyref2
If the BBC is responding to The National, I think it more likely that they are less concerned about presenting an unbiased view but more worried about prosecution for hate crime.
Now wouldn’t that be headline to see…
Perhaps all the usual trollers are still hungover from last night’s merrymaking following TM’s speech.
@robert peffers.
He he. Well done sir. I don’t read the troll’s posts. But I do read the your replies cos there’s always a nugget or two in there for me to digest! Hurrah!
Anyone else hear the ex prime minister of Ireland on radio 5 live this morning? When asked what he thought caused brexit he said, ‘English nationalism’. Spot on. Mrs May will be hoping that the EU won’t slap a 1705 style aliens act on her. After all England used that as well as bribery to make the Union.
Great to go and see the inform scotland van. Glad I contributed.
@Proud Cybernat
I don’t know about the blocking. I’m seeing people who are undecided, wavering or even previous NOes being antagonised by the excesses of the “British Nationalists”, and the more people like SD do it, the better for us I think.
Perhaps in a way we can just sit back and watch them destroy themselves.
Wow he’s yer bone fide Unionist isn’t he…go on go on Davey boy vomit it all up, ya sick wee laddie. Definitely a ‘little Englander’ in oor midst. D’ye really think by attacking Robert on such fabricated and spurious grounds that yer representing yer fellow ‘English’ folk? Are they all as thick and belligerently obtuse as you?
Nah, didn’t think so. You speak for yourself, you are ignorant and willfully so.
Here’s the point, Scotland is one of the signatories to the Treaty of Union that comprises the United ‘Kingdom’. Your desperate attempts to deflect, with insult and obnoxious condescension does not diminish nor remove that fact. Scotland voted by 62% to remain in the EU, Scotland in voting No was assured, nay promised by the entire establishment in London that only by voting No would our place in the EU be totally secure.
Why even Andrew Neil the biggest Unionist of them all admitted that today Davey boy. To that affect the No vote no longer stands as any signifier of Scotland’s constitutional position within the United Kingdom. The EU referendum result will split the Kingdoms of Scotland and England.
And you will be increasingly revealed as the utterly idiotic foolish ‘little Englander’ that you are.
Your comments on here today reveal a man teetering on the brink of a mental or emotional breakdown. You are an absolute disgrace to the country of yer birth. To ever equate yourself with the good people of England as someone who represents their interests and views is a shameless ‘nationlistic’ blood and soil narcissism bereft of intelligence and insight. You are projecting your own narrow and limited bigotry on to others on this thread.
Let me make this clear Davey boy. We see you. Not England. You in all your nasty minded bigoted glory, for what you are: A ‘Little Englander’ personified.
Salt helps though yesindyref2 😉
@K1
Poking with twigs doesn’t do any harm either 🙂
He’s really not very good at it.
I have just read the brief article, linked below, and while it and the comments are interesting in their own right, some touched on key considerations.
The notion of Scotland staying in the single market if England leaves, may actually make sense for English business. It could be mutually beneficial, and with other arrangements such as those of the crown dependencies in relation to the EU and single market, it seems if it was possible in the 70’s, then what is stopping such arrangements now.
As some of the commentators pointed out, it just seems to be bl**dy minded ‘boo-yah’ ‘get it up you’, shut up and do as you are told’ English venom against Scotland. To my mind, their really should be serious discussion of the Scot gov proposals, but all we get in the media and online, is childish insults, silly vacuaous political commentators and the ultimate stupid phrase ‘brexit means brexit’.
I honestly, think their is a real sickness at the heart of England right now, hatred of Scotland, hatred of the EU, hatred of Europe, arrogance, mean-spiritidness, and general pig-ignorance of facts.
Let’s be very clear, it is ABSOLUTELY in England’s long term interests, to consider Scotland very carefully. Remember what happened with Ireland. No good comes from this blatant politically fuelled hatred of all things Scotland, and especially telling scots by DIKTAT, that they will do exactly as
UKEngland tells them. All so bl**dy offensive to Scots.Patronising platitudes and wearing an ill-fitting ‘tartan’ suit just doesn’t cut it, when you choose to ignore the clearly expressed democratic will of the Scottish people.
I really do wish England would sniff the proverbial freaking coffee, and wake up to just what a grotesque monster it has become.
LINK to article http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/01/19/it-may-be-legally-possible-for-scotland-to-stay-in-the-customs-union-and-even-the-single-market/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+org%2FlWWh+%28Tax+Research+UK+2%29
Must be nearly time for the night shift, and a go at the National. And of course Robert.
‘A significant change of circumstance.’
Such as say UK gov and the Better Together campaign reneging and defaulting on a core assurance of the independence referendum.
There was no opt out for Scotland offered despite the assurance of the previous referendum. No thought given to pledges made to Scotland’s population. Pledges and assurances made to win a constitutional vote.
Unless of course I missed the part on the ballot which said Scots don’t need to vote on this issue because, y’know, indyref. Maybe in the small print somewhere it said Scots can spoil their ballot papers en masse if they wish? No?
The EU referendum should never have been called precisely because it held the potential to cast into doubt the result of the independence referendum and send the UK into constitutional chaos. But Davey boy did like a gamble and in his and Westminster’s arrogance who really gave a shit about what the Scots would think. The natives were taught a lesson and were still being shit upon in commons and by a very compliant media.
So, a UK vote with no opt outs for anyone compelling a population to the ballot, with the potential to constitutionally compromise the result of a prior referendum.
Westminster political class. Arrogant, ignorant, patronising fuckwittery writ large.
Well done them.
I agree with every word in your post Robert Louis.
Makes a fine comparison with the passive aggressive/now just aggressive & insulting posts of the so called sensibledave.
I used to be English but now have happily left that behind.I am a New Scot as Salmond once labelled English settlers in Scotland.I rather like that.
A few links for the evening
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10150/minister-david-mundell-admits-he-represents-tories-not-scotland
https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/01/pm-tells-business-they-must-pay-fair-share-of-tax-days-after-threatening-to-turn-uk-into-a-tax-haven/
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/interview/scottish-minister-scotland-faces-being-brexit-collateral-damage/
https://www.neweurope.eu/article/davos-schaeuble-takes-may-trump/
I see the UKIP chap Aaron Banks is setting up some sort of UK Brietbart site and it will be called Westmonster by the looks of it.
Just letting peeps know because it is a term we have used for a while and I guess we will want to make sure that no one confuses anything we say with anything they are likely to say.
McGuinness ‘not seeking re-election’
http://archive.is/CEf8L
Merkel’s senior economic adviser says Theresa May’s plan is impossible
http://archive.is/7V2ZV
Interesting poll by the SNP from Yougov.
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/
I’ve just watched FM Questions on YouTube. The Presiding Officer is a disgrace. Why does he allow the baying of MSPs? This is not Westminster Politics! He should go!
Amazing how when things don’t go their way,unionists start a new buzz word/phrase. I never heard the term “uk single market” before Brexit. Someone obviously had a panicked meeting to come up with a newspeak slogan. 🙂
Martin Mc Guiness has retired from politics.
the times they are a changing
Derek Bateman’s thoughts on history and on the excellent article by Prof Nicholas Boyle …
http://derekbateman.scot/2017/01/19/living-the-past/
http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_problem_with_the_english_england_doesn_t_want_to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882
…. both a good read and explain a lot.
@Fred says: 19 January, 2017 at 3:13 pm:
“Had a look at that Guardian site, & folks think Rock is a Zoomer? Post-independence Scotland is going to have wan helluva disgruntled neighbour. The Gaza Strip’s about it!”
Aye! Fred, I was over there last afternoon and evening. Used my other internet name, “Auldbob”.
I’ve never seen so much pure shite since my late wife had mistakenly asked a local farmer to drop of a full load of dung in the field behind my garden. A half load was much more than I actually needed.
The total lack of any actual knowledge was bad enough but the misinformation stated as fact was very much worse. I remained, more or less, respectful but imparted quite a lot of real facts. Then they stopped comments for the thread.
Even more interesting yougov poll after May’s speech, I daresay James will do an article on it:
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/xalfiwu0ed/TimesResults_170118_VI_Trackers_MaySpeech_W.pdf
Robert Peffers says
Ah, they don’t like real facts up ’em, do they 🙂
My blood pressure could take dealing with Guardian comments. Gave up with forays into Yoon home turf years ago.
sensibledave says:
19 January, 2017 at 5:18 pm
Robert Peffers 4.10
The usual load of waffle from you Robert with the usual load of misdirection and insult.
You Wrote: “When did you become, “Millions of your country folk”, dave.
I speak on behalf of them because they do not know what you are saying about them! I live amongst them – you don’t! So much of what you write is based upon cheap shots and generalisations that are completely baseless. You sound off about Englanders, southerners, Westminster, the establishment,
=======================================================
How ironic. WE live here in Scotland – YOU don’t sensibledave. All of what you write is unionist establishment propaganda nonsense. You have no clue what we have to endure under westminster rule, or how we feel inside about it.
We know what you are.
But for fun – sensibledave give us ONE benefit/advantage we in the Kingdom of Scotland get from being in this Union with the Kingdom of England – ONE.
There’s a Tory run council in England proposing to increase council tax by a whopping 15%. Wonder what ‘highest tax in UK’ Ruth thinks?
One councillor said that this will have to happen after all the cuts maybe they should get in touch with Murdo who thinks that the Tory Gov do not do cuts to anyone especial Scotland
msean says:
Straw clutching. Inventing a name for something which is diminishing fast.
The EU single market is eight times the UK one.
Which would the sane person chose as best bet for the future?
@ronnie anderson says: 19 January, 2017 at 10:41 am:
” … Sd’s just one of the many thousand’s of Agent Provocateurs in Scotland at this time.”
I know, Ronnie, but I see his kind as a way to make them look what they are and at the same time attempt to do a bit of reverse psychology that might just work on those who have not realised the constant abuse of the terms like, “country”, “Britain”, “Great Britain”, and the initial letters, “UK”, in order to brainwash our own Scottish voters into using them too.
There is a great deal of voter blindness as to what Westminster really is since devolution. I cannot understand why so many Scots cannot see that Westminster is the de facto Parliament of the Country of England.
It really now hardly even bothers to disguise what it is and in fact The Secretary of State
for-against Scotland has shoved it right up Scottish noses by stating on TV, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”. So the United Kingdom Parliament must thus be the Parliament of England as far as the government is concerned.You cannot get more insulting than that. Getting told your country no longer exists and you are just another bit of Britain that England classes as her dominion.
Just how many Scots believe that they are subservient to England? Did all those Scots who died for Scotland’s freedom die for nothing?
So James Caithness…
you pose a mighty fine conundrum!
One advantage of the Treaty of Union that Scotland gets from England??
Something that we couldn’t get as an independent country…
Er.. er… er…
is it Dutch Elm disease?
Sententious Dave posts another load of provocative bollocks:
“Why isn’t [Sturgeon] organising indyref2? Clearly I don’t know so I am guessing. Is it because she thinks a majority of Scottish voters will not want to leave the UK?”
The clue is the sentence in bold. He doesn’t know.
Conjecture is NOT fact; opinion is NOT fact.
Get wise to smarmy Dave’s Poundland standard of discussion, which includes omitting the inconvenient fact of over 350,000 English domiciled in Scotland, and telling Wings opponents they’re dim, just in case they should have any doubt about it.
galamcennalath
“the EU market is eight time the UK one”
A strange facet of the reliance by the unionists on the UK 4 times EU exports bollocks is the lack of ambition.
Pretend that those figures are accurate for a moment. The Yoon mindset is that this means poor old Scotland is absolutely reliant on England so get back in your box. Not very tory (in the sense they like to think of conservative thinking).
Even thinking that our UK exports are maxed out and can never increase is a weird mindset never mind thinking EU exports are at some kind of magical normal. And clearly the potential for sales in the EU is vast compared to the rUK market.
If someone had a couple of million to spare I am pretty sure I could make a pretty good stab at setting up trade embassies in the major EU capitals and subsidise loads of these excellent Scottish food and drink producers to get out there and really motor. It is not rocket science but we’ll never see this from the foreign office or Scotland Office if we live for a thousand years because deep down they don’t want Scotland to succeed.
The dearth of ambition in the pathetic falsehood at the heart of the case for Scotland leaving the Eu along with the rest of UK is dismal. That’s the mindset- we’re shite/you’re shite and that will never change.
@Liz g says: 19 January, 2017 at 10:50 am:
” … During the negotiations this issue was not raised,and the representatives of Scottish Soverenty (MPs),did not and have not indicated that the accuracy of Treaty made with the EU was in doubt, because of the terminology used.”
While your argument has much merit, Liz g, it misses an important point that I do often also make.
That point is that it is really only since the introduction of devolved parliaments and then EVEL that it became so abundantly clear how Westminster regards itself in relation to the kingdoms and countrie of the actual Union.
This process of going from a union of equals to a parliament openly operating as the parliament of England has been a slow progression. Some, like myself, realised what was going on many years ago but to most people it was not apparent.
To be brutally frank it still has not sunk in to the vast majority of Scots even yet. Witness the hard time I’ve been given by some right here on Wings. Not nearly so much now but in the not so distant past.
It was only really clearly a change when devolution began and not made crystal clear until EVEL was mooted. So there is a reasonable explanation why most Scots did not realise what was happening and factually many still don’t realise it even when you explain it clearly to them.
Probably, (I hope), more a case of they just cannot believe it is really happening than a realisation it already has.
So when we signed up to the Common Market as a United Kingdom most Scots had not even a suspicion of any kind. They still saw the United Kingdom as a united kingdom.
When we then progressed to the EU they still were not alert and, let’s face it most still haven’t cottoned onto the truth even yet.
That’s not to even count the actual Unionist supporters who want us to be a region of England – and we need look no further than the Holyrood debating chamber to find many of them.
Robert Peffers @ 8.23
Spot on again Robert…. Hopefully more and more people will become more and more aware of this position.
I am still unfortunately shocked sometimes at the level of ignorance amongst Politicians of all stripes in both Parliament’s.
I often wonder how deliberate it is,or if it’s just lazyness ?
If it’s anyone’s job to know this stuff it’s theirs.
Especially when negotiating an international Treaty, because the thing I forgot to say in my last post was that in Law ….”ignorance is no excuse”….
And I could also put my tin hat on and point out that to get these Treaty’s signed there had to be Westminster lawyers involved,they are surely in no position to claim that they did not know what the Treaty of the Union contained!!
Tis a pickle to be sure.
It’s probably that they have been getting away with it for so long, that’s emboldened them to assume they always would.
That No vote gave them the confidence to introduce EVEL,but I think it cannot now be hidden they overstepped the mark,one time to many.
And like you I’m not going to shut up about it either.
Tam Jardine @ 8.13
Well…. If I win Euro millions this week your on Tam.
Which reminds me,were we no told nay lottery if we vote yes?
Haven’t heard a word about loosing the Euro millions or not!!
Funny That!
There’s a person on the Express pushing a change.org petition to have Sturgeon stand down as First Minister, with nearly 36,000 signatures.
Problem is this: signators from Blandford, Deal, Middlesborough, Basildon, Shaw, Gilford, Netherlands, Walton-on-Thames, Weybridge and Kings Lynn plus probably Hancock from Hancock – that’s 11 out of 20 I looked at.
She’s not their FM. Personally I’d sign it if it said “in 20 years time, poor thing”, as in 2037 she might be able to get a state pension once iScotland puts it down to 65 again, and have a well-earned rest!
http://archive.is/vmlTr for that, only shows 10 signators.
Well it’s all grist to the mill. Maybe that will also help to swing some soft no’s across the dividing line.
At least our First Minister won an election and has the mandate of her people.
The PM was elected to office by fewer than 600 people – that’s southern democracy;
17 million out of 65million people have voted to leave the EU – that’s southern democracy,
they ignore the wishes of their equal partner – that’s southern democracy.
Not, ‘do what I do’ but bloomin’ well’ Do as I say!’.
We could start one to get rid of T May – at least we would be legitimate in that aim unlike those outside Scotland trying to mount a coup!
Tam Jardine @ 8.13pm
Your point about lack of ambition is just so right. Whilst the Britnat Brexiteers talk about ‘global Britain’ forming new trade agreements across the world and also getting a great deal for its continuing trade with the EU, apparently all Scotland can look forward to post-independence is losing our trade with the rump of the UK, being out of the EU, and (uniquely amongst developed countries it seems) being unable to retain and form new trading relations with the wider world on our own account.
Every enterprising outlook being promoted confidently by the Tories and their Britnat allies post-Brexit is never ever for a moment considered to be an option for Scotland. The potential of an independent Scotland is simply written off – too wee, too poor and too stupid to trade successfully. Their view of our future trade is binary – rejecting independence good; choosing independence a disaster.
It stands up to no reasonable, critical analysis. Any acceptance of this fearmongering is just another facet of the Scottish cringe.
A wee ‘tweet’ that says so much about Scotland
jim corbyn ?@jegteg 56m56 minutes ago
Just had a convo with the first ministers mum and dad on the no 11 bus?
Why on earth do so many of the people who post on this page have such difficulty with ‘your’ and ‘you’re’?
Look, it’s perfectly simple. ‘You’re’ is a contraction of two words: ‘You’ and ‘are’. ‘You’re kidding’ is merely the shortened version of ‘You are kidding’. The apostrophe (the wee flying tadpole) between the letters u and r is there to show you that a letter is missing: in this case the letter a.
Other examples, ‘Don’t’ is short for Do Not. ‘Isn’t’ is short for Is not. ‘It’s’ is short for It is.
The word ‘Your’ means simply that something belongs to You. ie Your dog, your car, your house.
Can you please just try?
@sensibledave says: 19 January, 2017 at 2:12 pm:
“It seems pretty clear to me that If Scots (i.e. a majority thereof) don’t want to to leave the EU then they need to leave the UK.”
More of your absolute failure to comprehend anything whatsoever regarding Scotland and political matters, sensibledave.
How many times and how many irrefutable proofs will it take to have things sink into your mind?
The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of kingdoms. It is thus not possible for the Kingdom of Scotland to leave the United Kingdom. Simply put, just for you, sensibledave, when, (not if), Scotland decides it has had enough of this union the union ceases to exist. Like this, sensibledave. If you put two apples into a fruit bowl to make a bowl of fruit and then someone takes one apple out you no longer have a bowl of fruit you have a single apple in a bowl.
Got it now, sensibledave? Scotland is one of only two members of the united kingdom and there cannot exist a united kingdom with only one member kingdom. BTW the acts of the Westminster parliament of 1800/1 are actually not a treaty of union. Go check what they are officially titled.
” … Ms Sturgeon said she wants a soft Brexit and I think we can agree that is not going to happen.”
Well no, sensibledave, Nicola did not say she wants a soft Brexit. The SNP SG does not operate like that. Nicola said the majority of the people of Scotland wanted a soft Brexit.
“Pretty clearly that she wasn’t bluffing when she talked about indyref2 as a response to not getting her way on a soft Brexit.”
Nope! She was not worried about getting her way. She was doing what a majority of Scots elected her to do – what the voters gave her a mandate to do.
“Why isn’t she already organising indyref2?”
How do you know that indyref2 isn’t organised long ago?
“Clearly I don’t know so I am guessing.”
Well you got that right, sensibledave.
” … Is it because she thinks a majority of Scottish voters will not want to leave the UK?”
Nope! It’s because it would be a very stupid thing to do until after there has actually been a formal Article 50 request for the United Kingdom to leave the EU and the negotiations have begun.
First of all the English PM,(Westminster is the de facto parliament of England after all), and it becomes clear that the English PM’s promises that Scotland will be fully involved in that process is a hollow promise, (as usual), will it be prudent to take any action for the Kingdom of Scotland to end the United Kingdom.
“Is it democracy getting in the way again?”
Err! In view of the obvious truths as stated above – is that not a bloody silly question?
English government consultation on Brexit consists of cauld tea contemptuous biscuit followed by the reading of last weeks minutes which were Brexit means Brexit so sod off and shut up
This weeks business: We telt ye last week so you’ve been consulted now sod off and shut up
SNP Guv statement: We were treated with contempt and disregard
English Guv statement: Scottish Guv was consulted on all the issues but you’d expect the SNP to complain as they’ve no intention of being serious because all they want is an Independence referendum
News person: But you said they couldn’t win a referendum last week and they didn’t really want one
English Guv statement: Oil, eh Nicola Sturgeon stirring up English hatred, eh they can’t win, eh shut up and go away…bloody upstarts!
Complete and totally accurate paraphrasing of an account by a bystanding journalist in London today outside the Brexit offices
The Rough Bounds @ 9.24
Where dis the tadpole/tadpoles go when ye write yir.
As in yir Maw??
Liz g @9.24
wins the thread.
‘Should Mundell resign?’
Now 700 votes, still 98% Yes.
If some folk don’t like Twitter/FB polls etc, fair do’s, but it’s not exactly hard work to click a box, and if many ‘established’ polls sample only 1000 or so, what’s the harm in getting a decent number, however it’s collected?
98% in favour of *anything* means something.
https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257
For anyone who missed it, here is a link to Joanna Cherry on Daily Politics today. She takes a minute or so to get into her argument but once she does she’s formidable.
She even gets Andrew Neil to admit that the before the 2014 ref Ruth Davidson and others told us that ‘only a No vote would guarantee Scotland stayed in the EU’.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38678641
@sensibledave 5.18
‘You think it outrageous that a country that recently voted to remain part of the UK isn’t given a veto on what the rest of the UK does???!!!’
You misrepresent again you impossibly tall scheister.
No one on here or Nicola Sturgeon wants to keep the Kingdom of England in the EU against their will.
It is Scotlands status we are concerned with and want to preserve.
Your trolling is becoming too obvious to be worthy of a true Brit Nat.
I think you may be wasted on these threads.
How about running away to Zippos Circus as a tallest man in the world side show.
I’d pay good money to see you next summer at Glasgow Victoria Park 🙂
If Corbyn really is going to 3 Line Whip Labour MPs to vote through Article 50 then BLiS are going to hope they can poll as high as 10% soon.
Surely this is their death knell.
What is the point of Labour?
We Wingers have been asking this since 2014 (some of you before this).
But now in Brexit Britain following May’s “F*ck you EU” Speech the other day, seriously what’s the point of Labour and more so what’s the point of BLiS.
A PLP First, England Second, the electorate last decision. All so they don’t lose votes (and their place at the trough) to UKIP in the North of England and in Wales.
Scotland, not even considered.
Heil Trump
BBC Politics
10 mins ·
Nigel Farage: Trump told me #Brexit won him the presidency
BBC creeps have got to take a major bow too. Without all their sterling work getting a reprobate like Farage and now Eddie Hitler out there, they’d still be BNP bordering on oblivion.
See tonights BBC Question Time, that crook Carbuncle and Piers Morgan for goodness sake. We’re about to get our vile sep arses soundly kicked BBC style, again.
Ouchee.
Brian Doonthetoon,
“Hi Rock.
You typed at 9.54pm,
“The only way to become sovereign is to vote for independence by a majority.”
But you type that we Scots are not sovereign. If we’re not sovereign, as you allege, why should it make a blind bit of difference if the inhabitants of a region of the UK vote for independence? I use the term “region”, as you don’t believe we Scots have sovereignty.”
The Scottish plebs have NEVER had “sovereignty”.
Any alleged “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it is written on.
The “sovereignty” of Scotland as a nation was sold by the parcel of rougues for pieces of English gold.
This sale of “sovereignty” was endorsed by the 55% who voted against sovereignty and independence in September 2014.
Scotland is no different form any other English colony.
Fight for independence and you become “sovereign”.
At the moment, Scotland is NOT “sovereign” and has not been for more than 300 years.
Calling Scotland a “region” is being generous. Scotland has effectively been a colony of England for more than 300 years.
It is as simple as that.
As an aside following Wee Wullies Fib Dems siding with The “Ruth Davidson No Surrender to Referendums Party”
Does anyone else think it’ll be a National Fib Dem & Tory Council Coalition strategy in Local Authorities and BLiS votes drying up completely?
Maybe The Ruthenfuhrer and Wee Wullie think BLiS are as irrelevant as the rest of us do (you just have to look at the calibre of BLiS candidates, Red Tories ideologues).
Robert Peffers,
“@Joemcg says: 18 January, 2017 at 11:27 pm:
“I’m just curious, if we are sovereign as a few posters have claimed why is the UK government thwarting our EU mediation proposals at every turn? I’m sorry we are not sovereign.”
Oh! Please engage your brain before opening your gob or putting your typing finger on the keyboard.”
You are the one one with big gob spouting nonsense.
Put your money where your gob is and go to court to prove once and for all your “sovereignty”.
No “sovereign” state on earth sends all its income to a foreign country and gets back a fraction of it as pocket money.
No “sovereign” state has its foreign affairs and most other matters decided by a foreign parliament.
Does your passport state “Citizen of Scotland”?
What sort of “sovereignty” is that?
Shouting from the rooftops that you are “sovereign” does not make you “sovereign”.
Nightshift has turned up. Six cans necked and looking for a fight!
Breeks,
“I repeat what I have said before, and what Robert Peters has said before, that sovereignty cannot be defined or influenced by democratic opinion when it is an absolute condition defined in law in perpetuity. To subjugate Scotland, the United Kingdom has devised a way to circumvent this obstacle to power over us by creating and maintaining a false version of the truth.”
What is stopping you and the likes of Robert Peffers, with advice from “Lawyers for Yes” to go to court to challenge Westminster’s “false version of the truth”?
You will be crowdfunded all the way.
@ whoever asked “Why did Mcguiness resign and nobody put forward to replace him triggering an election?”
Because Sinn fein are refusing to uphold the Stormont power-sharing administration as it is, with DUP Loyalist/Unionist double-dealing, sectarianism and alleged corruption. When he resigned Martin Mc Guinness said there would be “no return to the status quo”
“there not likely to put a deputy forward after the March election otherwise why not put one up now.”
A SF leader will no doubt be selected. Whether s/he ever becomes deputy First minister of the NI Assembly remains in doubt. if SF gets enough votes s/he will become First minister. If SF gets enough votes to be Deputy First minister it’s unclear whether and how it will “return to the status quo”. Lot of negotiating in sight!
“No they will refuse to put forward a deputy which will result in direct rule from .london. What happens then if Supreme Court rules that devolved administrations and parliaments have say before triggering article 50?’
Westminster’s problem? Westminster would have to sort out all the issues SF has with the current set-up in Northern Ireland, pretty quick to meet their self-imposed end of March Brexit deadline. Will that happen? Watch this space!!
Rock says:
19 January, 2017 at 10:13 pm
Robert Peffers,
Hey Rock its a bit of a cover blow going raging after Robert Peffers, straight after sensibledave disappears with his fury at him too. Dickhead.
The Rough Bounds says:
A nice simple rule which might help folks is never use apostrophes to signify ownership .
That also clarifies its versus it’s. 🙂
Scotland has its parliament, it’s a new building.
However, spelling auto correction can play havoc!
Hi Rock.
You can award yourself a big bag of mint kudos for replying to my post of 24 hours ago. Proves that you must go to the effort of keeping up with every comment btl.
However, you defeat your own argument by opining,
“This sale of “sovereignty” was endorsed by the 55% who voted against sovereignty and independence in September 2014.”
No, Rock. Because the people of Scotland had a vote, used it, and voted against independence, does not mean that they gave away our sovereignty. They voted against independence. That was their right, as sovereign Scots.
The fact that we independence supporters did not agree with that vote does not amount to “This sale of “sovereignty” as you allege. It merely proved that on 18th September 2014, the will of sovereign Scots prevailed.
Now, go away and learn how to debate properly, before too many more Wingers become convinced that you are sensibledave.
@Rock,
I understand what you mean regarding sovereignty, but I have to disagree with your conclusion. Like all things it can take many years for an ideal to come to fruition through circumstance or design.
Ever since the time of Edward 1 ,through to Henry 8, England sought to control Scotland. Ordinary people resisted until the nobility sold them down the river. Even then the majority of Scots refused to accept this rule .
Resistance created a bloodbath as by then many armed men under the control of the aforementioned Scottish nobles supplemented the English forces. We have been in effect controlled by the military ever since. Occupied, subdued and ruled.
However, everything has its time and as you have quoted from me before, Universal Suffrage has reinvested the Scottish people with that which was subdued. Their right to be sovereign. It was never dead. It was only put into cold storage for the last few centuries because the English Parliament hoped the idea of liberty would either die out through indifference or inbreeding within the nation’s of the UK.
It is now revived and I think our claim of right will never be subdued again. Ever.
The tragedy of all this, Mr Torrance, are the Yoon hacks who persist in peddling their particular brand of bovine manure whilst refusing to see that as far as their precious Yookay is concerned, the writing isn’t just on the wall, but the door, the ceiling, the floor and all over the bloody picture window!
@ Thepnr jist in time for the 10pm shift of the 4hr oan 4hr aff brigade of the Agent Provocateurs
Ah! It comes 🙂
“Judgment in Article 50 #Brexit case to be handed down on Tuesday 24 Jan at 9.30am. Details on public access here”
https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/access-arrangements-for-24-january-article-50-brexit-judgment.html
Ian
I think the main problem is that that a lot of us don’t do Twitter. It won’t let me tick the box because I am not on Twitter.
Brian Doonthetoon at 10.29
No.He is not sensibledave. Sensibledave is more sensible.
Feck me. Got it again today from a daftie. “Oh dear. Were no doing well at all. I see our unemployment is up again. Hope we don’t have a referendum. We can’t afford to break away”
I might get some t-shirts printed with my response
OH TERRIBLE ISN’T IT! WE’LL NEED TO TAKE FULL CONTROL OF OUR ECONOMY AND RESOURCES. CAN’T AFFORD TO GO DOWN WITH THE BUST UK ANY LONGER
yesindyref2 says:
The Brexit and Westminster stuff will be interesting enough, but what we really want to read is what they have to say on Scottish constitutional matters!
It could all be a fudge and they avoid saying to much, or could be the beginning of clarity about what the Union is, how it works, and what the limitations of WM in regard to Scottish sovereignty are.
@galamcennalath
Interesting thing is when I look, it was tweeted on the UKSC twitter feed yesterday at 6 a.m., but I’ve not seen any reference to it anywhere. Possibly unexpected, as I think the opinion was it would be done on a monday for a thursday judgement.
Still, I’m sure it’ll be all over the media soon, real soon now …
Brian Doonthetoon,
“They voted against independence. That was their right, as sovereign Scots.”
That “right” only happened because the Prime Minister of the UK agreed to let Scotland hold a legally binding referendum.
What sort of “sovereignty” requires a foreign Prime Minister to approve the right to vote?
Watching question time and I think we should take a brief time to think about the plight of people in England and Wales who voted to remain. For us on the yes side brexit has given us a new lease of life and it doesn’t seem real because we have a way out.
If you are living in Peterborough and voted remain you have one party to vote for in 2020 and that is the lib dems (long after the plane has hit the mountain).
Their only hope long term is for Scotland to detach and lead the way.
Fozzy currently speaking sense and I say that as someone who paid money to the Orkney 4’s legal fund
@Joemcg says: 19 January, 2017 at 3:16 pm:
“Robert P. and DerekM-actions speak louder than words, your posts are just bluster I’m afraid.”
Well that’s two lies in one phrase.
Our posts are not bluster and you are not afraid,
” WM do not recognise us as sovereign or they would not be completely ignoring our EU proposals.”
Yep! Joemcg. Which, strange as it may seem to a numptie like yourself, is just exactly what our posts have been telling you but you were far too bloody stupid to realise that was what we were doing.
“… I suggest you both look up the true meaning of sovereignty before you post long winded meaningless verbal diarrhoea”
And do you actually fondly imagine we have not done so, Joemcg? I did so probably before you were even born.
You really are rather naive if you think I have not researched the subject thoroughly long ago.
As to the rather insulting reference you then spouted out I’ll ignore that and put it down to your sheer utter stupidity.
The point that by-passed your single brain cell is that in both English and Scots law there are legal definitions of the term Sovereignty and they do not differ too much in meaning. What does differ is their legal application.
English law retains the Monarch of England as the Sovereign Head of State but in 1688, and never taken of the statute book, the English monarchy must legally delegate their sovereign powers to the parliament of: Wait for it! Wait for it! ENGLAND.
Note: The Parliament of England sat and dissolved itself as from the last day of April 1707. And guess what, Joemcg? There hasn’t been a legal parliament of England ever since.
However, The Kingdom of Scotland legally changed the law of Scotland in 1320 and the law of Scottish sovereignty is still statutory today. It even applies to the clamping of vehicles on private land in Scotland which is a criminal offence in Scotland but not in England.
Scottish law stipulates that the People of Scotland are legally sovereign and only stupid buggers like you seem daft enough to think that because Westminster ignores the legal facts of Scottish law that Westminster is right and Scottish law is wrong. That is a stupid and illogical conclusion and only a fool would come to such a conclusion.
It is a bit like if your next door neighbour was six foot tall and weighed 18 stone and you are 5’5″ and 7 stone that he would be legally right to walk into your home and take away all your possessions because he is bigger than you.
Westminster is assuming to hold sovereignty over Scotland but there is nothing in law, either English or Scottish that says they are.
All evidence states that the united Kingdom is a bipartite union of Kingdoms and that Scots law is sacrosanct.
So it you are going to continue to argue you best come up with some evidence
There are two sides to sovereignty. One is having it, the other is getting people to recognise that you do.
Good grief that was profound.
Or not.
@ galamcennalath
Alas, galamcennalath‘s rule falls at the first hurdle 🙂 – one of the principal uses of apostrophes is to signify ownership.
I know what you meant, but someone who struggles with apostrophes might not.
“Apostrophes are used to signify omitted letters or, after nouns and followed by the letter s, ownership” isn’t so snappy though.
We may just have to endure; having been a proof-reader/editor, I automatically want to correct things, but I do know that if the sense is clear, I’m probably just nit-picking.
Tam Jardine says:
19 January, 2017 at 11:07 pm
Watching question time
Its the vote tory vote BoJO showtime show. If there is a progressive left in England, its either ghosted by tory BBC, like they’ve done to the SNP, or its dead.
BBC QT there, Piers Morgan Heil Trumping over NATO and how only 4 out of 28 member states pay the 2% GDP, and isn’t that a terrible thing. 2% GDP NATO charge is not a membership requirement, law, rule for NATO membership, which is why most countries do not pay 2% of their GDP.
UK/US neo fascism is on the march.
Bob MACK,
“Universal Suffrage has reinvested the Scottish people with that which was subdued. Their right to be sovereign.”
Universal Suffrage never existed before the union, in other words the “plebs” of Scotland were never “sovereign”.
Any alleged “sovereignty” before the union was not worth the paper it was written on.
Universal Suffrage came from Westminster, and is a UK right not a Scottish one.
Scotland has a devolved parliament with very limited powers and revenue.
Any independent country which is a member of the United Nations might be considered as “sovereign”.
The “right to be sovereign” will only come if in a legally binding referendum we vote by a majority for independence.
As it stands, we don’t even have the right to hold a legally binding referendum without Westminster’s permission.
If Westminster refuses and the matter goes to court, I am 100% sure that the court, in Scotland’s rotten to the core justice system, would say that a precedent had been set by the “Edinburgh agreement” and Westminster’s permission was needed.
The only “right” the people of Scotland have is the right to vote in elections under Westminster rules.
Apart from that, they are completely powerless.
Alex Massie’s much-more erudite and learned father Allan, some years ago in his excellent Saturday Scotsman column did an wonderful hatchet job on what he say as the biggest drawback to Scotland having a successful rugby team – something Allan identified as: “Aye Beenism”.
Aye Beenism has been bad for Scottish Rugby, but, it has been even worse for Scottish democracy. I refer to the Aye Beenism which has, over many years, enabled the huge in-built English majority in the House of Commons to ride roughshod over Scotland.
Robert Peffers has, on umpteem occasions, quoted chapter and verse on the realities of the Act of Union. He has, time and again, explained the difference between English and Scottish sovereignty, and, it is clear from what Bob has written – these differences in sovereignty between the two equal partners in the United Kingdom ought to have made the UK Parliament unworkable.
But, and you can argue forever about how well, or badly it has worked, worked it has – mainly because the Scots have, for a shamefully long time, let the in-built English majority away with murder.
Since the 2015 General Election, there has been a majority of Scottish MPs in the HoC who are no longer prepared to put-up with England trampling over Scotland’s interests. It is a classic case of our elected representatives telling the English members – what has Aye Been going on can go on no longer.
This, naturally, has not gone down well with the English members, who have ingested from their mother’s breast the notion that England knows best, and, England will make the big decisions and Scotland will just have to like it.
These English MPs are now getting it up them, and, to quote Corporal Jones – they don’t like it.
For my part, I think the SNP members have been too-nice; they should be waging a far-more aggressive war against the notion of England first.
With Brexit now going ahead, it is time to unleash the old Tartan Army war cry and: Gerrintaerum.
Remind them, at every opportunity – there are two supposedly EQUAL partners in the United Kingdom. They either respect that equality, or, they let us go and dissolve the Union.
Apostrophe’s rule’s OK! Their mines.
Anybody able to take pictures along the Golden Mile in Edinburgh tomorrow morning and Evening – or Peebles or Selkirk over lunchtime?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2025453744348032&id=1969903196569754
heedtracker
Aye- and we have piers morgan representing trump on the panel. Nae SNP despite us being the 3rd largest party in Westminster but we’ll get piers fucking morgan on the panel.
Some of the audience though- good lord!?! Watching from Scotland the political discourse in England is unfortunately ridiculous and idiotic. And we think we’ve been lied to? They have been well and truly zapped and that includes members of the panel
Robert Peffers,
“Scottish law stipulates that the People of Scotland are legally sovereign”
As a “sovereign” Scot, I want to get rid of the purring queen.
Tell me when “sovereign” Scots last got rid of a monarch they didn’t like.
And how I can start the legal process, under Scottish law, to get rid of this one.
And how I can change my passport to one saying “Sovereign citizen of Scotland”.
@ galamcennalath – so what about the cat belonging to Robert? That would be Robert’s cat. You do use an apostrophe to signify ownership. It’s apostrophe s if singular and s apostrophe if plural. So the dog’s collar, but the dogs’ collars.
You also use an apostrophe to signify a missing letter as you pointed out. It’s late. Think I’ll go to bed.