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Wings Over Scotland


The new lie

Posted on January 18, 2017 by

Alert readers may recall as far back as July of last year, when we highlighted an odd thing that Scottish Labour branch manager Kezia Dugdale had started saying.

kazmajority

Regardless of the fact that it was total hooey, Dugdale repeated it every chance she got, and the inevitable Scottish-media consequences have duly followed.

torrancemajority

massiemajority

If Unionist politicians keep pushing the same piece of hogwash often enough, as sure as night follows day it’ll become received wisdom in the Scottish commentariat, and while we expect no better of Torrance, Alex Massie is usually smarter than this.

As inconvenient as it might be for writers who like offering their readers easy-to-digest black-and-white propositions, Scottish politics in 2017 just isn’t that simple. The Venn diagram of who supports independence and who supports Brexit and who supports which parties is an incomprehensibly tangled knot in 3D.

(Actually we’re not even sure you could make a Venn diagram of it. You might need to call on MC Escher to get it to work.)

There’s still a majority for the Union and there’s still a (much bigger) majority for the EU, but they’re not the same people and you can’t just conflate them. The only two polls that we’re aware of to have asked a straight four-option question encompassing independence and Brexit both produced very similar results:

JULY 2015

europepoll1

SEPTEMBER 2016

europepoll2

Both of those polls, conducted more than a year apart, showed that the single most preferred option in Scotland is independence within the EU. The “majority”, “middle ground” option favoured (and presented as a clear consensus) by Dugdale, Torrance and Massie is actually less popular, commanding the support of barely over a quarter of the population, and the margin by which it trails has quadrupled from a single point in 2015 to four points in 2016.

(Indeed, it’s in real danger of slipping to third choice. Most of the movement between the two polls has in fact been against the EU, with a significant growth in the number of Unionist Brexiters at the expense of Unionist Remainers and don’t knows. UK/EU led UK/Brexit by 16 points in 2015, but that lead is now down to just four points.)

We plan to ask the exact same question again in another poll shortly. But for years we’ve been documenting the phenomenon of fact-proof opinionating masquerading as journalism in Scotland. (Some might call it “post-truth”.) Keep your eyes open for this latest incarnation, folks. We suspect you’ll be hearing a lot more of it.

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710 to “The new lie”

  1. Thepnr says:

    @Rock

    You are right for a change the precedent has been set in that there was an agreement, as there had to be. They called it the “Edinburgh Agreement”.

    That is the precedent.

  2. Tam Jardine says:

    heedtracker

    Aye- and we have piers morgan representing trump on the panel. Nae SNP despite us being the 3rd largest party in Westminster but we’ll get piers fucking morgan on the panel.

    Some of the audience though- good lord!?! They have been well and truly zapped- members of the panel as well.

  3. Rock says:

    Socrates MacSporran,

    “Since the 2015 General Election, there has been a majority of Scottish MPs in the HoC who are no longer prepared to put-up with England trampling over Scotland’s interests.”

    Give me one example of a law that our Scottish MPs, outnumbered 11 to 1, have been able to get passed at Westminster, preventing England trampling over Scotland’s interests.

  4. Thepnr says:

    @Rock

    Your posts become more ridiculous by the hour never mind the day. Your a poor lost soul I’m sure and I sympathise with whatever plight your facing.

    Can you just give us that read Wings a break though and maybe buy some crayons and a colouring book or something to fill your time?

  5. robertknight says:

    Sorry to disagree with the armchair constitutional experts on here, of which I count myself as one, but the people of Scotland can exercise their sovereignty only under two specific sets of circumstances as I see it.

    The first being when, as in 2014, both Holyrood AND Westminster authorise a referendum whereby the people can express their sovereignty in circumstances legally recognised and binding upon all parties.

    The other circumstance I can envisage would be if, despite the SNP and Greens passing the required legislation through Holyrood, Westminster should refuse to pass legislation authorising a second referendum.

    In such circumstances, the SNP Govt. could contrive, with help from the Greens, to force a vote of no confidence in itself and bring about a Scottish General Election. (Provided a Govt. of National Yoonity could be thwarted).

    The SNP could then stand on a manifesto pledge to the effect that in the event that they formed a Government at Holyrood, and provided they had also secured >50% of the votes cast in both Constituency and Regional ballots, the SNP Govt. could then undertake to withdraw Scotland from the UK via UDI, as per it’s well publicised manifesto pledge.

    As it stands, even if the SNP had all 59 Westminster seats, even if the SNP had a Majority Government at Holyrood, and even if 100% here had voted to Remain, we’d still be exactly where we are today – Scotland being dragged out of the EU against the express will of the majority of those in Scotland who voted in the referendum and also against the will of the majority of representatives elected to the Scottish Parliament.

    Therefore where exists our sovereignty today, if not in just those two specific circumstances outlined above?

  6. Rock says:

    Thepnr,

    “@Rock

    You are right for a change the precedent has been set in that there was an agreement, as there had to be. ”

    “There had to be”?

    Why would a “sovereign” people need a foreign parliament’s agreement to hold a legally binding referendum?

    Alex Salmond would not have set that precedent if he believed that we were “sovereign” and could do what we wanted.

    Even though the SNP had been elected with a manifesto commitment to a referendum.

    If Robert Peffers thinks he is smarter than Alex Salmond, he is seriously deluded.

  7. Thepnr says:

    @Rock

    The “agreement” was not about the right to have a referendum it was mainly about the date and the wording of the question of the referendum.

    This was as important for the UK as it was for Scotland. NO agreement would result in the SNP calling a general election in Scotland and with majority support in that election declaring UDI.

    Westmister knows this and I doubt they would want to play with fire of this sort hey but who knows. Anything is possible.

  8. heedtracker says:

    Late night reading, Brexit coup, tory style.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/01/the-death-of-the-british-dream

  9. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘Should Mundell resign’

    Just hit 800 votes, and, yes, it’s still 98% Yes.

    Please pass on, whatever way you can.

    Just six days to go.

    (For those who are interested, the next poll will be ‘Should Rock Get To Fuck Off WOS?’)

    https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257

  10. Bob MACK says:

    It never seems to dawn on Rock that over half the entire world had their sovereignty removed from them by British force of arms. I am sure I do not need to list them all.

    According to Rocks philosophy these people should never have been able by various means to reclaim their freedom and their country’s sovereignty. They were after all ruled by Parliament in the UK.

    Surprise surprise. They did it. Are we any less capable than they were Rock ?

  11. Rock says:

    robertknight,

    “As it stands, even if the SNP had all 59 Westminster seats, even if the SNP had a Majority Government at Holyrood, and even if 100% here had voted to Remain, we’d still be exactly where we are today – Scotland being dragged out of the EU against the express will of the majority of those in Scotland who voted in the referendum and also against the will of the majority of representatives elected to the Scottish Parliament.

    Therefore where exists our sovereignty today, if not in just those two specific circumstances outlined above?”

    The likes of Robert Peffers will never accept the truth as it stands.

    Your first set of circumstances involves Westminster permission, meaning we are not “sovereign”.

    The second set involves asserting “sovereignty” by way of UDI. That is what I would call putting your money where your mouth is and be ready for the consequences.

    I asked the following question to armchair constitutional expert Robert Peffers many times but he shied away from giving a straight answer:

    If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?

    If there is, which one?

  12. Ken500 says:

    Voting SNP ensures Scottish sovereignty, and another Referendum. Separate, legal system, education and Church, a shared Protestant monarch. Under the EU Human rights charter. Published accounts etc.

    The SNP have alleviate the !bedroom tax’, put more money (pro rata) into the NHS and social care, puts more (pro rata) into education etc. Alleviates cuts to welfare benefits etc. In April they will be able to stop illegal sanctions. In May there is an opportunity to clear out the Councils of Unionist/Green crooks. The opportunity to vote for another IndyRef2. After the Westminster crooks sabotaged the 2014 IndyRef. Scotland can keep close ties with Europe for which they voted. Instead of Tories taxing the Oil sector at 80% to 60% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs in Scotland.

    Westminster Unionists are borrowing and spending £500Billion on Hinkley Polnt, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. A total waste of public money. Cutting spending on NHS, Education and essential services in England. The Tories Unionists couldn’t make a bigger mess.

    The decision is in the voters hands. Vote wisely.

  13. yesindyref2 says:

    Holyrood can call a Referendum. If the presiding officer ruled that a debate was not in the powers of Holyrood in an attempt to head off such an attempt, a vote of no confidence could be called on him, and a new one elected.

    Then the only thing stopping the Scottish Government orgainsing and holding a referendum is a challenge in the court of sessions – or tanks.

    https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2012/01/31/gavin-anderson-et-al-the-independence-referendum-legality-and-the-contested-constitution-widening-the-debate/

  14. Rock says:

    Bob MACK,

    “It never seems to dawn on Rock that over half the entire world had their sovereignty removed from them by British force of arms. I am sure I do not need to list them all.

    According to Rocks philosophy these people should never have been able by various means to reclaim their freedom and their country’s sovereignty. They were after all ruled by Parliament in the UK.

    Surprise surprise. They did it. Are we any less capable than they were Rock ?”

    Yes, it seems we are. After more than 300 years, we are still waiting.

    We can become “sovereign” by becoming independent. That is my philosophy and I have stated it many times.

    I am challenging the falsehood of claiming that we are “sovereign”.

    As a nation, we are not and have not been for more than 300 years.

    As a people, the “plebs” of Scotland were never “sovereign” and any document claiming they were was not worth the paper it was written on.

    The “plebs” only got the right to vote from Westminster.

    People of a colony claiming to be “sovereign” must be the most deluded people on earth.

  15. Rock says:

    Thepnr,

    “@Rock

    The “agreement” was not about the right to have a referendum it was mainly about the date and the wording of the question of the referendum.”

    Stop re-writing history.

  16. yesindyref2 says:

    And incidentally, if the UK Supreme Court ruling is against Scotland’s intenvention, and others, on all counts (bar the actual appeal perhaps), that isn’t neccessarily the end of it all legally. I think there could still be a case in the Court of Sessions – under Scots Law. And / or thence to the CJEU.

    Tuesday will clarify a good few things though – or should do if the UKSC does its job properly. And one of the things it wants to avoid is – an ongoing challenge to the CJEU, as that delays the political decision of Article 50 invocation, perhaps by months. It wants a clear uncontestable ruling.

    Interesting few days ahead.

  17. yesindyref2 says:

    @Rock
    Unfortunately Scotland is NOT a colony, otherwise we could apply to the UN Decolonisation Committee and be guaranteed an aided Independence. Check it out.

    S30 for the Scotland Act and the Edinburgh Agreement was and is the straightforward path. Refusal causes a constitutional crisis. See my above posting and the link for what can happen then.

    Sturgeon – she ain’t for bluffing. And Wolffe is hungry. The UK Gov won’t be able to keep the Wolffe from the door.

  18. liz Gray says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 12.07
    Not on Twitter Ian,is there any other way?
    Sorry if you have already said I mibbi missed it.

    And a bit like the Indy ref.
    The first one for practice…But that second vote…What a wonderful opportunity???

  19. Famous15 says:

    Hi Rock.

    We could debate the Treaty of Union and the obiter dicta of Lord Cooper in McCormick v HMA till the cows come home but under the UN charter,which the UK is a signatory if a a majority wish self determination then they get self determination. PERIOD!

    Any referendum indicating such a majority is enough. BUT BUT nothing! Freedom!

  20. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 19 January, 2017 at 5:18 pm:

    “I speak on behalf of them because they do not know what you are saying about them!”

    No you don’t. You speak for yourself and are even perhaps employed to interfere with this blog.

    By the way! I lived among them too Sensibledave, long before you were born. Right down in Hants. Furthermore I worked among and with them for over 50 Years.

    Just as I do not claim to speak on behalf of the people of Scotland because they have not elected me to do so then nether have the peoples of England, Wales or N. Ireland elected you.

    You will note also that I rarely speak of England, (the country), but usually of England the Kingdom. For the good reason that the debate is NOT about countries. It is about Kingdoms.

    Nor have you indicated where I have insulted the people of England. You seem rather confused as usual, sensibledave.

    An insult to the Westminster Establishment is not an insult to the people of England because Westminster is supposedly the parliament of the United Kingdom and not of either the kingdom or country of England

    “So much of what you write is based upon cheap shots and generalisations that are completely baseless.”

    Then sensibledave, you won’t have a problem in highlighting these alleged insults to the people of England.

    You sound off about Englanders. Define, “sound off”? Then tell me how being described as an Englander is in any way insulting? I’m genuinely intrigued how defining a resident of England as an Englander is somehow an insult.

    If, perchance I’m offending you by describing Englanders as, well! Englanders then could you explain to me why being an Englander is insulting? Ditto with, southerners.
    You do realise, I hope, that to us, England lies south from Scotland.

    Same thing with Westminster, what’s wrong with Westminster? Oops! Best revise that – What is insulting about calling Westminster Westminster – have they moved it or demolished it while I was not looking?

    Is not Westminster, “The Establishment”, if it isn’t why do they call the C of E the Establishment Church?

    Err! “because you are too damned lazy to define a target”

    Oh! Come now sensibledave they ARE the targets. What are not the targets are the peoples of England, Wales and N.I.

    ” – so you lump them all together and come up with stuff like “Little Englander”.”

    Whoa There! Don’t you know the definition of, “Little Englander”? It is actually an English invented term?

    See :-
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/little-englander

    “In the UK’s EU referendum 1.6 million Scots voted Remain. In London and the South East a majority (55%) of the 19 million voters also voted remain. Both sets of constituencies were outvoted elsewhere in the UK and the result is what it is – that is the only way that democracy can work for the whole of the UK – and that includes the Scots that recently voted to be in the UK.”

    Dear me! You do seem to have a rather short memory, sensibledave. We recently went over all this. But, just for you – here we go again.

    The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two kingdoms.

    You cannot take the votes of countries and class them as if they were the component parts when there are only two parts and they are Kingdoms. You cannot also, in a United Kingdom referendum, then start making majorities willie-nillie of different areas and regions of one kingdom and compare them with an entire kingdom to suit your own agenda.

    “You think it outrageous that a country that recently voted to remain part of the UK isn’t given a veto on what the rest of the UK does???!!! “ You bet your sweet bippy that I do.

    I’ll explain it again, sensibledave. The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms. It was NOT a country that voted to remain part of a country – it was one partner in a bipartite United Kingdom that voted to remain in the United Kingdom but that was under the explicit promise made by that United Kingdom that by doing so it would assure that partner kingdom would remain as part of the EU. Now the promiser has decided to take us out of what they said would assure we remained in.

    “So, instead of lashing out at your fellow country folk that disagree with you on the destiny of Scotland”

    Eh! Who me? You got the wrong guy there sensibledave. When did I ever lash out at my fellow countrymen?

    Don’t you realise that those who support the Union in Scotland claim their country is the United Kingdom but no such Kingdom exists. The word Kingdom is not synonymous with the word country.

    “… do your silly, cheap, baseless characterizations of good folk that didnt have a vote in your indyref.
    DO you not see just how silly, inacurate, lazy you are. For someone so hung of on pedantic detail elsewhere you really do miss the big stuff Robert.”

    What the hell are you wibbling on about there? sensibledave.

    The last thing in this old World that I am is lazy. Nothing I comment on is un-researched and neither is it pedantic. It is exactly the point of the entire trouble between the two Kingdoms that the actual facts are being ignored that will cause the United Kingdom to end.

    If stating the absolute truth is being pedantic then have a wee thought sensibledave. If Westminster had stuck by the Treaty of Union’s Articles of Union there would not be any problems today. Seems, as usual, you are unaware that the term, “Articles of Union”, means that those Articles are legally binding terms of agreement between the two partners who agreed them. Are you really saying that advocating sticking to the articles of Union is pedantic?

    In that you exhibit exactly why the United Kingdom’s days are now very nearly ended.

    Tell me, if you were a married man, (thus in a bipartite union), and your partner, male or female, was cheating on you, on a regular basis, in front of your eyes, and in spite of your protests refused to stop. Would you expect her/him to call you pedantic for quoting your marriage vows? Would you go ahead with divorce proceedings or suffer on forever in silence?

    Away back from whence you came. You are consistently loosing the arguments and constantly now losing the plot and the head.

  21. Big Phil says:

    I cant imagine coming to a blog were one of the most intelligent of people comments wisdom that i wish i knew, and is highly respected by many; and then argue that he’s talkin pish. @rock are you related to dugdale by any chance?

  22. yesindyref2 says:

    “Off with his head!”

    Sounds like a Royal Prerogative.

  23. Big Phil says:

    Now if i timed that and said sensitive fannybaws, that would have been good. lol

  24. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 12.57
    Aye,but the Scottish translation is…He’s aff his heed..
    (Wi a tadpole fur emphasis)

  25. Watching QT – and I did for a bit and couldn’t stand the embarrassment any longer – was like watching a carnival of national self delusion. Why was Ally Liar on and not Angus Robertson or Alex Salmond?

    I feel for the English. They have paid no attention and are brainwashed. The Independence referendum certainly wakened Scots up but we were already much more politically aware than the folk from the south of England anyway.The fault line in Scottish politics has always been the Labour Party in the wrong position. That wrong position was to help Labour into power in the UK and that has destroyed it eventually in Scotland and the erstwhile Labour support,particularly the young in it, is now mostly in its natural position.
    Autumn 2018 referendum! – and independence day 700 years after the Declaration of natioanal sovereignty in Arbroath Abbey

  26. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Liz Gray (12.42) –

    Sorry Liz, it’s really just a normal Twitter poll.

    I’ve put up loads, most of them light-hearted, but this one has taken off a bit.

    I’m a nobody and this wee poll will be ignored, but if someone with clout did a serious petition then I suspect it would get a similar result, but draw a much much larger number of voters.

    Bottom line – Mundell is hopelessly inept, has all the charisma of a hibernating toad, is probably guilty of complicity in the Frenchgate affair, and does not represent Scotland’s interests. He doesn’t even seem to bother any more. The office he represents is defunct, worthless, and an embarrassment to everyone who has anything to do with its maintenance.

    He really should just go – no-one will want the job, and that in itself will help everyone acknowledge that the whole ‘SOS for Scotland’ charade is finally coming to a natural end.

    https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/821870203499872257

  27. Liz g says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 1.15
    Ok Ian thanks for letting me know.
    I share your distain for fluffy and the whole concept of The Secretary of State for Scotland.

    One of these days I will get around to figuring out Twitter, probably just as it’s getting replaced right enough!

  28. Liz g says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 1.10
    What is the exact date…. Please tell me it’s the summer??
    I wasn’t happy about the last date for Independence day…
    I mean it’s Scotland FFS at least give us a ..Chance…It wouldn’t rain!!!

  29. Still Positive. says:

    Liz g @1.28

    If it is the 3rd Thursday in September in 2018 then it will be my birthday, which I am happy about.

    My son mentioned this evening that it would be a much better birthday than the one in 2014 which was the day after our defeat.

  30. ian m says:

    Who gets to vote in the next referendum which is likely in 2018?
    Because brexit was the reason for Indy2 will Euros living in Scotland get a vote
    Will any new groups be in, will any be out?

  31. Liz g says:

    Still Positive @ 2.00
    If you mean the vote for Indy… Finger’s crossed your birthday brings us luck X
    But I think Dave was meaning the Date Independence is declared around 2 year’s after the vote.
    The date I’m getting is the 6th April 1320 …So the 6th April 2020 would not only be achieveable but would be quite significant as well.

  32. Meg merrilees says:

    UKSC ruling will be delivered at 9.30 on tuesday morning. Cabinet meeting will take place and then David Davis or Teresa May will make a short statement to the H of C that afternoon. It’s possible she could table a draft emergency bill on wednesday to try and stay on target for March trigger.

    Possible she will announce triggering of Art 50 on March 9th at a meeting in Brussels as the meeting on March 25th is too near to 60th anniversary of the EU.

    March 9th doesn’t give much time to N.Ireland – election 2nd March.

    Link NOT archived.

    https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/theresa-may-planning-court-defeat-brexit/

  33. Meg merrilees says:

    Latest news from the BBC north-scotlandshire region:

    Jeremy Corbyn will use his first speech in Scotland to criticise the SNP budget plans.
    He will accuse the SG of “devolving austerity and passing the buck” and increasingly failing to govern fairly or effectively (pot and kettle?)

    Nuclear waste storage facility is to be increased at the former Chapelcross nuclear plant.
    The new building will be designed to store the waste for 150 years. there will not be an increase in the amount stored, rather a change in packaging which will require a bigger (thicker-walled) building.

    Nuclear material being flown from Wick the the US is to being used for military purposes.

    Manufacturing shows positive growth trends

    Devolved Administrations hold ‘difficult’ Brexit talks. Great deal of frustration in the Nations re the WM gov attitude to Brexit and T May’s speech pre-empting things. Sinn fein may pull out and Welsh admin also unhappy. Mike Russell said it had been a ‘difficult’ morning.

    Andy Murray’s ankle is ok.

  34. Meg merrilees says:

    CORRECTION – computer glitched!

    Nuclear material being flown from Wick to the USA is NOT being used for military purposes.

  35. Meg merrilees says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38685158

    Ian Paisley thanks Martin McGuiness for his work in N.Ireland.

    Off to listen to tennis now.

  36. Ghillie says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 1.10am = )

  37. Macart says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    I agree. The position of SoSfS is defunct and useless to the people of Scotland. We’ve got a government and pretty competent one too.

    How and ever that bloody position and everything it represents is extremely useful for one bod and one institution I could think of. I don’t think the fact that no one would want the job would matter to them either, they’d fill that position regardless to ensure someone sat in the chair and simply because it gives the bastards a presence and as they see it a legitimacy.

    Personally, I reckon they should rename the post, to become more accurate y’understand? Governor Generals office? UK consulate? That sorta thang.

  38. Finlay says:

    @ian m 0207 20/01/2017

    If indyref1 is taken as a template for indyref2, which seems to be the most sensible and likely scenario since Westminster already agreed to that template last round, then citizens of other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland would indeed get a vote along with 16 & 17 year olds.

    EU citizens from other countries living in Scotland pay taxes (even more than we do in many cases) and are just as much a part of our society as any of us born in Scotland.

    A lot of non-Scottish EU citizens I know voted No in 2014 because they bought into the Better Together EU scaremongering. There is a paradigm shift now that we’ve been proven correct in saying that the UK establishment was more likely to pull us out of the EU than an independent Scotland, so hopefully come indyref2 we can make a real impact on the outcome by making the effort to inform and gather support from non-Scottish EU citizens resident in Scotland.

  39. Luigi says:

    ian m says:

    20 January, 2017 at 2:07 am

    Who gets to vote in the next referendum which is likely in 2018?
    Because brexit was the reason for Indy2 will Euros living in Scotland get a vote
    Will any new groups be in, will any be out?

    That’s a very good question. Could an Indy vote for Europeans living in Scotland be legally challenged? After Article 50? perhaps. After full BREXIT? You bet! WM are desperate and will try anything to hold on to us. Fo this reason alone, we may have to hold Indyref 2 before we are officially out of the EU.

  40. Smallaxe says:

    Macart says:

    “I agree. The position of SoSfS is defunct and useless to the people of Scotland.”

    The Beardmuncher is defunct and useless to the people of Scotland.

    Fixed that for you, my Friend.
    🙂
    Peace Always

  41. Macart says:

    @Smallaxe

    I don’t mind him munching his beard so much as what lives in his beard (shudders). 🙄

    He’s a placeholder right enough and if there’s any justice in this world I hope he’s fully aware of that. For someone with his belief system, pride and arrogance, that’s got to sting. I’m just not entirely certain he has the intelligence to grasp his own irrelevance.

  42. Finlay says:

    @Luigi 0652 20/01/2017

    I think that a second independence referendum should be called as soon as, or just before Article 50 is triggered seemingly at the end of March 2017.

    The UK government is going to have 2 years to negotiate with the EU the terms of Brexit and it is going to be a monumentally complex process of negotiation. When we become independent, that is all very well for us, but the UK government is still going to represent the rest of the UK in these talks and it seems to me to be rather helpful to all rUK residents if those EU negotiations begin on the premise that Scotland is going to have a vote on our independence in late 2018.

    Timing indyref2 this way is a lot fairer on EU citizens from other countries who reside in Scotland as it could prevent those folk being kicked out, only to be let back in, which would be a massive waste of time and money.

    An independence referendum is for the people of Scotland, not the rUK. In the EU referendum Scotland voted to remain in the EU and the Scottish parliament voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU with support for an EU remain vote coming from all sides of the independence debate. I’d say that gives all EU citizens resident in Scotland who meet all the other standard criteria to vote a pretty solid grounds for their voices to be heard in indyref2.

  43. Smallaxe says:

    Indian PM Narendra Modi said in 2015
    “Yes, we are going to other European Union countries as well, but we will continue to consider the UK as our entry point into the European Union, as far as possible.”

    Good luck with that Boris! 🙂

    Peace Always

  44. Breeks says:

    Rock, if Scotland’s sovereignty and independence was an issue internal to Scottish people, then yes, I suppose I would be up for a legal challenge aimed at the emancipation of our sovereignty.

    However, to repeat my earlier comment, after 2014, Unionists and subversives could, with some legitimacy, argue that it was the will of a minority being imposed upon a majority, and while the legal legitimacy of our sovereignty would be unaltered by such views, the rebirth of our country could be mired in rejection, dispute, civil disorder and disruption.

    To a degree, and unpleasant to think about, there is perhaps a risk of that happening however Scotland achieves it’s Independence, and it then becomes a question of the “degree” of unionist backlash it provokes.

    Don’t forget, we live in a land saturated with BritNat propaganda and media control, and we have 2014 as a grim reminder how easily the Independence narrative can be manipulated and misrepresented to dissipate Scotland’s national awareness and distort perceptions.

    If we set forth to launch into the legal case for our legitimate sovereignty, we would have to be prepared for those arguments and legal benchmarks to be distorted, misrepresented and discredited just as the media did to the YES Independence narrative in 2013/14. We might win, yet still lose; 2014 all over again.

    Our “media” has no loyalty to Scotland nor respect for our welfare. If Scotland seized it’s rightful control over sovereignty prematurely, the media propagandists currently running free and largely unchallenged in Scotland would mark their expulsion from Scotland by agitating civil unrest and disorder in their wake. -Just like any occupying power being driven back before a resurgent counterattack. They will metaphorically plough up the railway lines, poison our water holes and booby trap the landscape. They would seek to leave Scotland in flames. We must never allow them the opportunity.

    If that frustrates you and angers you Rock, please know that it angers me too, but let us channel our anger in the right place and be thankful that Nicola Sturgeon isn’t as rash or hot headed as you or I, and appreciates just how vital it is to secure widespread acceptance and support for Independence so we are ready for it when it comes.

    For the BritNat media, their battle is won or lost according to Scotland crossing the threshold of Independence or stepping back. For true Scots, our story goes on and that moment is just stepping from one era of history into a new and brighter era. That fills me with joy, hope, and optimism, and I would share those aspirations with as many undecideds and former No voters who are slow to embrace the morning. I would spare them the assault and agitation to rage which the BBC would deliver if Scotland enacted it’s legitimate sovereign authority prematurely. And be clear, until there is an appetite for independence in the majority, with enemies and propaganda all around us, it would be premature.

    It’s a time for patience Rock. Be measured and canny.

  45. Smallaxe says:

    Breeks says:

    ” For true Scots, our story goes on and that moment is just stepping from one era of history into a new and brighter era. That fills me with joy, hope, and optimism, and I would share those aspirations with as many undecideds and former No voters who are slow to embrace the morning.”

    Inspirational! Thank you.
    Peace Always

  46. Hamish100 says:

    2 days running BBC GMS run stories on buses.

    BBC PQ don’t need to worry. One lot travels by car the other west Enders by cycling. For the latter well done. Pity later on they jump in their 4×4’s so they can play with their designer fog lamps.

    Reason story has been run? Local government have no money. Guess who is to blame? U.K. Government for cutting public monies and block grant? Don’t be silly.

  47. yesindyref2 says:

    So there was this spider, see, on the bedcover when I went in, and my guess is that it was probably happily crawling around the light bulb, the light went on and “ouch” it quickly dropped off. Then lying there thinking “thank the big fly in the sky for that”, it gets scooped up and dropped out the windae. From comfortable to sizzling to cold. But it’ll probably get back in and I’ll call it “Bruce”.

    Which got me to thinking, about having a spider in a cave as a logo for Indy Ref 3, in case it’s needed. Try, try and try again.

    Which got me to thinking, why not set up YES3 now, have that spider as its logo, put up a website with “Coming in 2023 if we’re not successful this time!”. And having links to it from all the pro-Indy website.

    The idea is the undecided and not too bothered might find it and think to themselves “For Heaven’s sake I’m sick of these Neverendums, I’ll just vote YES this time and get it done with once and for all.”.

    Just an idle thought.

  48. Smallaxe says:

    FOUND:
    Shivering spider with burned feet, answers to name Bruce; Contact smallaxe@webmail.
    🙂
    Peace Always

  49. Hamish100 says:

    Yesindyref2 but won’t you need to change your old title to infinity.

    Wear the b’s down or as Matt McGinn would say effin Bees.

  50. yesindyref2 says:

    @Smallaxe
    Can I have it back please? It’s almost … part of the family.

    @Hamish100
    I’m tempted to set up the posting name and use it on the Express, BBC, Scotsman …

    … just to make sure it works of course.

  51. bjsalba says:

    @yesindyref2

    Spider website is already taken

    http://rbs.postach.io/

    and very good it is too!

  52. Smallaxe says:

    yesindyref2:

    Spider being returned by Aye Mail, I could see the family resemblance.
    🙂
    Peace Always

  53. Nana says:

    http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/dossier-of-20-inaccurate-uk-news-stories-about-muslims-revealed-with-warning-coverage-fuels-the-far-right/

    Gina Miller Calls Theresa May’s Brexit Speech Deliberate ‘Diversion’ From Supreme Court Article 50 Ruling
    http://archive.is/xqBxr

    Theresa May Says Britain Will Lead a New Era of Free Trade
    http://archive.is/gx0Cw

    Since #DaisleyGate is back in the tubes, let’s listen again to what Stuart Cosgrove & Eamonn O’Neil said about him.
    https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/822051619688902660
    Nana

  54. Smallaxe says:

    Nana:

    Thank you, I will move back to O/T now and devour my links, Kettle’s on.
    🙂
    Peace Always

  55. Grouse Beater says:

    Macart – Smallaxe: “ Mundell doesn’t mind him munching his beard so much as what lives in his beard (shudders).”

    On Glesgae Bridge Mundell stood
    Chewing his beard through lack of food.
    “This beard”, he sighed, “Is crap to eat.
    But a damn sight better than shredded wheat!”

    🙂

  56. Grouse Beater says:

    Penned some days ago but just as relevant on day Donald Trump is inaugurated, his finger on the red button.

    http://wp.me/p4fd9j-b61

    Photograph of his Scots mother here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-ciJ

  57. Ken500 says:

    Local Gov has more than enough money. They chose to spend it on grotesque projects the majority do not want instead of essential services. ACC has wasted £Millions on a grotesque carbuncle the majority do not support. £100Million destroying the City centre adding to the congestion. An absolute disgrace, £30Million, non mandated, on an Art Gallery renovation. Refused a Gift of £80Million to pedestrianise the City Centre supported by the majority. = £210Million. They are not funding essential public services. There is no overnight homeless provision in the City. Not properly funded total abstinence rehab provision or social care. Or repairing potholes etc. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

    They are now illegally flogging the City off on the Stock Exchange getting the City into more debt, To fund a non mandated Conference Centre £300Million. Another total waste of money with no business case. The present one is used on average once a month and funded with £26Million of public money. Unionist now complain about business rates. At least the money will stay in Scotland not be squander and wasted by Westminster.

    The Scottish Gov have funded the essential AWPR. The Greeens have wasted £Millions trying to stop. The Westminster Unionists has cost Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. Taxing the Oil sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Wasted £Trillions on illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.Displacing millions of people and causing the migration crisis in Europe.

    That is nearly £Billion wasted in one City on non essential services. Multiply it by nearly every Unionist controlled Council in Scotland. GCC, ECC etc.

    Westminster are borrowing and spending £500Billion on London S/E Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. A total waste of money with no business case. They will be redundant before they are even finished.

  58. Nana says:

    @Smallaxe

    Late links this morning. Had a wee computer glitch which I hope is all sorted.

  59. Macart says:

    @Grouse Beater

    😀

    Needed that Grouse.

  60. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 19 January, 2017 at 11:41 pm:

    “Give me one example of a law that our Scottish MPs, outnumbered 11 to 1, have been able to get passed at Westminster, preventing England trampling over Scotland’s interests.”

    And what has that got to do with the price of fish at Peterheid, Rock?

  61. Ken500 says:

    Trump spoke against the illegal Iraq invasion in 2003. Against the banking bail out etc. Hilary Clinton is a lying, warmonger. The US/UK administration have caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. European countries have to pick up the pieces costing £Trillions.

  62. Ken500 says:

    The ignorance and incompetence of BBC journalism is totally incomprehensible. People have to explain to them what is going on. Lagging way behind.

    Another one hits the dust. Another down, another one gone. Another one hits the dust. Just annoying folk.

  63. Cadogan Enright says:

    Message from Simon at inform Scotland

    Advan vandalised last night by folk unhappy with it’s message. APOLOGIES TO THOSE WAITING AT SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT AND CASTLE we will try and get the show on the road again ASAP – check here, on the website and off-topic on Wings for updates

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2025453744348032&id=1969903196569754

  64. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I don’t suppose Rock will read this. He, after all, is on night shift this week, so is probably tucked up in bed, while sensibledave works the day shift – but, here goes.

    Rock: you challenged me to show you one example where the SNP MPs, out-numbered 11-1 got legislation through or stopped.

    That wasn’t the point; the point wasm and is: gone are the days when the blue and red Tories lined up to pass legislation which harmed Scotland, and it went through on the nod – yes, anti-Scottish legislation still gets through, because of the in-built pro-English imbalance in this parliament of two equal kingdoms, but, now the SNP fight it every inch of the way – which was not always the case in the past.

    If the Tories come up with legislation which will harm Scotland, the SNP opposes, it goes, as one body into the lobby and votes against it; the SNP does not do abstaining when Scotland is being harmed.

  65. Contrary says:

    Yesidyref2 re: set up YES3 now,,, Excellent idea!

    I have a quiet boiling fury when I hear people saying ‘tough. You already voted [insert negative voting decision]’ – maybe I’m particularly sensitive about being allowed choices in perpetuity, even when I get a promotional email e.g ‘SALE now on, ends at midnight, LAST chance, buy NOW’ , I just think, ‘fcuk you, last chance ever eh? I don’t have to do anything, you can shove your sale’. Suffice to say, I do not get much bargain-buying done.

    But the point being, anytime someone says that a decision is a final chance, I see it as manipulation, it is a way of controlling me & forcing me into making their version of the right decision. And I will, by default, choose the opposite (possibly just to be ,,, contrary?).

    Take the 2014 independence referendum, the campaigns boiled down to, in my own mind:
    1. Vote no or you will be targeted by a rogue asteroid and die a horrible burning death.
    2. Vote yes for self determination and let’s see if we can make it work.
    (This is without the benefit of understanding how badly the BBC was/is distorting things). Of course, hearing the threat of 1. indeed got my hackles up.

    I am sick of voting as well, but I still want to be given a choice & be able to change my mind every second of every day, take that away and you take away my freedom.

  66. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Gina Miller Calls Theresa May’s Brexit Speech Deliberate ‘Diversion’ From Supreme Court Article 50 Ruling

    In my mind, May’s offer to let parliament vote on ‘final deal’ meant nothing. What ‘final deal’? Would that be the trade deal in 4-8years, if it ever happens? Or, interim trade arrangements in two years? Or, the divorce settlement, if they manage to agree? May is BSing.

    That Huff article said May’s waffle had resulted in the Express saying May had “slapped down” Miller, “undermining” her argument.

    Oranges and apples. Totally unrelated.

    For me, what is all shows is that lies, manipulation, propaganda are being uses just as much in support of Brexit as they are for the Union.

  67. Dr Jim says:

    Today half the world will be crossing their collective fingers hoping that the insanity of Donald Trumps words don’t become the reality while the other half hope they do

    What’s happened to mentality when people think that folk like Nigel Farage and Donald Trump can be lauded and elected to public office for saying stuff the rest of us would be arrested for

    Today will be a day of sorrow for right thinking people everywhere
    The English racism of Brexit apparent though it is looks like being only a precurser to events unfolding in America as white police forces cheer this new appointment and no one has to look far to wonder why

    Theresa May and her party of elitist nut jobs are displaying all the delight and joy of orgasmic Llamas as they revel in the foam of what they see as the unfettered power to come right here in Lil old England and it’s colonies

    Jeremy “Buffoon” Corbyn will come to Scotland today in the sure and certain knowledge that he will have his favoured perfect Tory party bosses to oppose for years to come
    Will there be anybody left in Scotland who hasn’t seen through this pathetic charade of political masters and servants for what it is

    I’m not one who would normally be calling for the Scottish government to do something but we’re getting close to the point now where the folk who are smarter than me about these things are going to need to help the rest of us by giving us a wee glimpse of hope that we might have a chance of escaping the madness of this blatant protectionist racism driven agenda by our new and insane overlords on both sides of the Atlantic

    We’re asking a lot of one wee lassie from Ayrshire but.. Help us Nicola you’re our only hope……….. (Wee bit of star wars parody there for light relief)

  68. Macart says:

    @Contrary

    ‘I am sick of voting as well, but I still want to be given a choice & be able to change my mind every second of every day, take that away and you take away my freedom.’

    *THAT*

  69. heedtracker says:

    They are now illegally flogging the City off on the Stock Exchange getting the City into more debt, To fund a non mandated Conference Centre £300Million.

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/14897031.Marischal_Square_development_plans_creates_fault_lines_in_Aberdeen/

    It is heart breaking to watch yoon culture try to destroy our once beautiful cities.

    Even worse, Gordon Brown and the red tories showed Wullie Young types in the ACC that giant debt is power.

  70. yesindyref2 says:

    @Smallaxe
    Jings that was fast, I knew AyeMail was good, but … Bruce is back!

    @bjsalba
    It’s a good site, worth a read.

    Mundell stood on the burning deck
    When all but he had fled

    Twit!

  71. HandandShrimp says:

    So the advan has been vandalised. If that had happened to Ian Murray or Ruth Davidson the BBC would be wittering on about burly men and political bullying.

    On a seperate matter Jamie Green Tory MSP and advert for Sporting Life men’s clothes has sent me a leaflet to complete regarding priorities (and of course if I want another referendum. The problem is I have to put it in an envelope and address it his constituency office in Largs. It doesn’t say freepost in the address tag. Is he expecting me to fork out on a stamp or am I missing something?

  72. heedtracker says:

    Grouse Beater says:
    20 January, 2017 at 9:00 am
    Penned some days ago but just as relevant on day Donald Trump is inaugurated, his finger on the red button.

    Great essay.

    What’s the book running on the orange clown impeached, this time next year, 18 months?

  73. Socrates MacSporran at 9.36
    The point actually is what is the point at all of Scottish MPS being outnumbered in what in reality is another country’s parliament.

  74. yesindyref2 says:

    @Cadogan Enright
    Police called presumably, and media notified?

    I daresay the BBC will carry a report in the news.

  75. yesindyref2 says:

    @Contrary
    Indeed, I’m something similar.

    It would be an “in your face” [1] to them right enough.

    [1] insert appropriate phrase

  76. Socrates MacSporran says:

    <iDaveMcEwan Hill @ 9.52am

    Good point, well made sir.

    But, since a parcel o’ rogues got us into this agreement over 300-years ago, and, for most of these intervening 300-years, we Scots did nothing about the unfair arrangement, it now befalls the 56 true Scots (or believers in an independent Scotland, for those among them not Scots-born)to be as big a nuisance as they can be until, in desperation and frustration, the English say: “Let’s be shot of those whingeing Sweaties”.

  77. Grouse Beater says:

    Heedtracker: “What’s the book running on the orange clown impeached, this time next year, 18 months?”

    Must give that a check, HT.

    His presidency is sure to get mired when they open all his scummy baggage.

    Who’d have put odds on twinkle shoes Flately as main celebrity at Trump’s inauguration, all else declining?

  78. yesindyref2 says:

    @Nana
    Robin McAlpine seems to be making the assumption that we’re making assumptions. I assume he’s wrong.

  79. ronnie anderson says:

    Test Test

  80. DerekM says:

    So been out for a few hours still no SNP machine gun posts trying to shoot me in my car,hey express eejits where is this war on motorists i have been driving about for hours looking for it and so far the only war i have seen was some crows.

  81. Smallaxe says:

    yesindyref2: Finished that for you 🙂

    Mundell stood on the burning deck
    When all but he had fled
    And people thought “how brave he is”
    But they had been misled.

    Fluffy was not brave at all
    He would have got off fast
    If Smallaxe did not have him
    Tied tightly to the mast

    Peace Always

  82. Robert Peffers says:

    @robertknight says: 19 January, 2017 at 11:49 pm:

    “Sorry to disagree with the armchair constitutional experts on here, of which I count myself as one, but the people of Scotland can exercise their sovereignty only under two specific sets of circumstances as I see it.”

    Then you would be wrong, Robert on several counts. Many, perhaps even most, of the legally sovereign people of Scotland legally exercise their legal sovereignty every day of their lives. One of the sovereign rights of the legally sovereign people of Scotland is the right to roam in the Scotland that legally belongs to the Sovereign people of Scotland. They go out for a walk and they have the sovereign right to go where they please with only the laws of respecting other sovereign Scots personal privacy, not straying onto dangerous places like railways or fenced MOD land.

    Others can park their vehicles without the fear that some private land owner will clamp, or tow away, their. vehicles.

    “The first being when, as in 2014, both Holyrood AND Westminster authorise a referendum whereby the people can express their sovereignty in circumstances legally recognised and binding upon all parties.”

    Not really a good example, Robert, for the reason that it was no more than two different sovereignties each compromising to accommodate the other.

    The legal standing is that if the people of Scotland held their referendum without agreeing to compromise with the Queen of England’s delegates at Westminster there would have had to be a legal confrontation between the two opposing legal systems that neither wanted at that particular time.

    ” … The other circumstance I can envisage would be if, despite the SNP and Greens passing the required legislation through Holyrood, Westminster should refuse to pass legislation authorising a second referendum.”

    And that is the failure of two different legal sovereign powers NOT agreeing to compromise. This is exactly the situation that was faced in 1706/7 and they then came up with the solution that is contained in Article of Union XIX, (19), (which Article I posted here on Wings just the other day).

    This is exactly what we await to hear the result of coming from the UK Supreme court – a court that in itself is illegal under article 19 of the Treaty of Union. It is a Westminster instigated court designed to bypass the people of Scotland’s sovereignty.

    A Westminster parliament that is being operated as the de facto parliament of the Country of England and that too is illegal according to the Treaty of union.

    Now here is the brick wall that will inevitably be hit by both sides of this dilemma. No matter what the Supreme court decides we are back at square one. Two different legal systems and the two are not compatible.

    We are right back where we started in 1707. The question remains exactly the same and it is this:-

    IS THERE OR IS THERE NOT STILL A TREATY OF UNION

    If there is one then we have a United Kingdom but if we do not have one the United Kingdom no longer exists.

    This is where we get to the point that such as Rock have already bent down ready to be accept whatever fate the mighty country of England is only too ready to administer to them.

    Here’s the real explanation of why Scotland has put up with being side-lined as a full partner in the so called United Kingdom.

    The Kingdom of England’s legal sovereignty rests with the crown of England and that has been delegated to the Westminster Parliament and that now operates openly as the Parliament of the country of England and, as unionists, it speaks with one voice.

    The people of Scotland’s several attempts to speak with one voice, (claims of right), are ignored by Westminster.

    Until now there has never been a majority pulling in the one direction. Now we have the only chance we are likely ever to get to stand firm together and assert our legal sovereignty – this time with at least the whole of Europe, if not the World, interestedly looking on.

    Thing is that this time we just may have Europe on our side and the solution is that Europe can choose to let England go and Scotland remain and, on the face of it, leaving Europe is what England wants and staying with Europe is what Scotland wants.

    Here is the obvious question – is England really wanting to leave Europe and part company with Scotland or does England want to leave Europe and still keep Scotland AS A DOMINION OF ENGLAND.

  83. Dorothy Devine says:

    Nice one Smallaxe!

  84. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Macart (6.33) –

    🙂

    Aye. Mundell, Governor-General of North Britain. In full uniform with one of yon hats wi all the big feathers sprouting out the top. He’d love that, having flunkeys get him dressed of a morning.

  85. Smallaxe says:

    ronnie anderson says:
    20 January, 2017 at 10:17 am
    “Test Test”

    Smallaxe says, Passed, Passed. Well done ronnie!
    🙂
    Peace Always

  86. heedtracker says:

    Tam Jardine says:
    19 January, 2017 at 11:37 pm
    heedtracker

    Aye- and we have piers morgan representing trump on the panel

    He’s there as fair ground shouter and Trump placeman. Extraordinary to watch, hard core tory media hit men slamming down their masters Cons shit, with a lot more coming our way. QT’s audience plant and his sneering at Sturgeon and our endless referendum, cut to guffawing Carbuncle, was then matched by Mike Portillo sneering the exact same stuff on Ligger Neils Politics vote tory blast. This morn’s Nic Robinson and his BBC r4 Today show was no different.

    We had better get used to Peirs and his next gen UKOK bully pulpit shouting, Vote NO or else 2.

  87. heedtracker says:

    Grouse Beater

    There is sleaze GB but US spooks are leaking all kinds of connections with Donny T, the Trump crew and Putin’s mob. Its not smear either. Putin’s a gangster running a gangster state and the US has masses of security problems all over the world. There is serious trouble coming now with this presidency.

  88. Nana says:

    Apparently around 80 people at the Corbyn speech. What a waste of their time.

    https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/822392238592258054

    Dugdale confirms slab will vote against the budget. Makes a change from the usual abstaining.

  89. Ken500 says:

    Piers Morgan and Alistair Campbell calling each other out on Preston. A couple of crooks. Both of them should be in jail. Illegal hacking and illegal wars.

  90. Grouse Beater says:

    Hilarious – An Irishman imagines the e-mails between Trump and Flatley, one of the few celebrities to agree to appear at his inauguration:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/micky-leaks-read-the-extremely-secret-emails-between-flatley-and-trump-1.2943241#.WIHcpZgE_2w.twitter

  91. DerekM says:

    Ah thought i had found the war grenade blasts and bomb craters all over the roads but then i noticed i was back in Falkirk.

    You know i think the express might be telling fibs about a SNP war on motorists,i have rover that has two UJ`s on it and i never got shot once.

  92. Neil Cook says:

    Personally I think May has found her Ribbentrop in Fluffy Mundell. An odious creature who is lacking in talent but will do anything to please his master.

    As for Trade deals does anyone not think that the EU are speaking to all current Countries involved with the EU that doing another deal with a former member will be detrimental to them on future orders.They would have to be as naive as the UK if they didn’t put the blockers on any such move?

  93. Andrew McLean says:

    Jeremy Corbyn,#

    labour -OUR IMPERIAL OVERLORD IN WAITING ARRIVETH!

    Scotland – Why do you think we need your advice? (before lobbing him out of the nearest window)

    Is Scottish labour an autonomous party free to make its own decisions even if they are apposed to the Parent Party?
    Did T May come up to Scotland to dis the SNP budget? Did Tim Farron come up to stand beside what remains of the Lib Dem’s and scream SNP bad, so what on earth would a English constituency MP come up to Scotland and make an absolute tit of himself during the Budget negotiations?

    Time to get out the Palestine flags, or say we want a united Ireland, because he is vocal in support of those propositions, but Scotland no Scotland “Know your place, I an English, therefor your superior come to tell you what to do”.

    So Kezia as branch supervisor gets a visit from the big London boss, I wounder if they painted the office, bought in cakes and innovative Jam?

    As a MP he has no power as the budget is devolved, the branch is supposed to be completely separate, the decisions made in Scotland by all parties are unique to Scotland so what in Gods name is he doing.

    Now don’t get me wrong, its excellent he is because he is a straw man here, he has no say, he will never, never be prime minister in Westminster, his next chance will be when he is in his 80’s, and won’t the press have a field day with that. and he makes kezia look like the branch supervisor that she undoubtedly is.

    Nevertheless the unionist press will teat him as the second coming, whilst the same press will make sure in England that he will never progress an inch’

    I wounder if he will sit up straight wear a nice suit and sing the National anthem, will he dance to a war memorial, will they mock his clothes and his lefty trendy hippy ways.

    JC as PM? never.

    As a propaganda tool for independence, I would have him up every week, and twice on Sunday, because his very presence reinforces the fact that Scottish Labour is an allusion, and the Labour Party is dead in Scotland, its unionist position outplayed by The Ruth Davidson Scotland in Union Party.

    Who fight for Scotland, ONLY the SNP and its Independence supporting erstwhile allies the Greens, well some of them.

    His attendance is as incredulous as T May going over to Ireland and speaking to the DUP and rubbishing Sinn Féin. If anyone is Westminsters man in Scotland its JC.

  94. Socrates MacSporran says:

    After PMQs on Wednesday, and Speaker Bercow admonishing the SNP for bad behaviour, while allowing the Tories to jeer and abuse Angus Robertson, I was so annoyed, I dropped Mr Speaker a wee note, making him aware of my disquiet.

    I got a nice, bland, meaningless response this morning, from “Grace”, the Secretary to the Speaker’s Secretary.

    It’s not just jobs for the boys in Westminster,it’s jobs for the girls too.

  95. Andrew McLean says:

    I got a copy of JC speach, streight from a staffer from labour HQ in London, for two woodbine and a swig of Poitín.

    Jeremy Corbyn
    Free Palestine and the Irish!
    A speech to the restless natives of North Briton from the Imperial Wizard

    Friends, Scotsmen, you fellow English countrymen, lend me your ears;
    I come to bury the SNP, not to praise them.
    The evil that men do lives after them;
    The good is oft interred with their bones;
    So let it be with SNP. The noble Kezia
    Hath told you the SNP was ambitious:
    If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
    And grievously hath the SNP answer’d it.
    Here, under leave of Kezia and the rest–
    For Kezia is an honourable woman;
    So are they all, all honourable women including Ruth–
    Come I to hopefully speak at the SNP’s funeral.
    He was my friend, faithful and just to me, just wasn’t trendy enough like the Palestinians:
    But Kezia says they are ambitious for Scotland’s future,;
    And Kezia is an honourable woman.
    Labour in Scotland hath brought many pounds of Scotland’s wealth as captive home to
    Westmister! Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:

    Did this in the SNP seem ambitious, no they wanted the money raised in Scotland kept there?
    When that the poor have cried, The SNP hath wept:
    Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
    Yet Kezia says the SNP were ambitious;
    And Kezia is an honourable woman.
    You all did see that on the BBC!
    I thrice presented Scotland a vow a kingly crown,
    Which they did thrice refuse as it was bad for Scotland: was this ambition?
    Yet Kezia says they were ambitious;
    And, sure, she is an honourable woman.
    I speak not to disprove what Kezia spoke, about a new Act of Union?

    But here I am to speak what I do know.

    You all did love them once, not without cause:
    What unionist cause withholds you then, to mourn for them now?
    O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts and to the BBC,
    And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
    My heart is in the coffin there with The SNP,
    And I must pause till it come back to me.

  96. carjamtic says:

    Educated Fools with money on their mind
    plastic in hand and a gleam in their eye

    It’s all going off in the kitchen,cept nobody knows what’s cookin
    What’s it to be ?….chips n cheese,get on your knees

    They say peoplle gotta learn,but who’s gonna teach them
    I can understand it,but how can I reach them

    No secrect anymore,she laid it on the line,
    But don’t worry,we will all be fine,

    TFIF got to go,gotta kill this pain
    Sometimes feels,am goin insane.

    #GanstersParadise

  97. ronnie anderson says:

    Mibbee’s Mr McAlpine might explain how he intends to increase the incomes of those earning £25.000 by 5% to create 400.000 Yes voters LOADS OF MONEY small matter of the SG dont have the power over earnings.

  98. ronnie anderson says:

    Am suckin Auld ——- and singing —- ——– banner , ? might be fur you’s aulder heids lol.

  99. Dan Huil says:

    @Nana 8:51am

    PM refuses to rule out blocking Scots MPs voting on Brexit law
    http://archive.is/IeTAa

    It’s time the SNP MPs got demonstrably angry; if Westminster tries to block them voting they should invade the commons an cause as big a stooshie as possible.

  100. HandandShrimp says:

    I think the saddest thing about Jeremy’s visit to Scotland is that I haven’t even bothered to look at what he said. Kezia and her crew are about as relevant as Rennie these days. They just aren’t saying anything that matters nor do they offer any solutions.

    It is perfectly OK to say that Labour support Scotland staying in the UK and EU but they are not in a position to do a single thing to achieve that and Jeremy has told them to vote for Article 50. Once out of the EU Kezia will rally once again to her mistress Ruth and sing the No Surrender song.

    WTF?

  101. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 19 January, 2017 at 11:49 pm:

    “There had to be”?

    It’s called compromising, Rock.

    “Why would a “sovereign” people need a foreign parliament’s agreement to hold a legally binding referendum?”

    You do talk a load of crap, Rock. Whoever claimed that the Holyrood Parliament is a sovereign Parliament — until now?

    The Holyrood parliament was set up by the Westminster Parliament and the Westminster Parliament has since then been openly operating itself as the de facto parliament of the country England and the overlords of the other three countries of the former United Kingdom.

    Trouble is that it also claims it is the parliament of the former United Kingdom that holds sovereignty over everyone else. Like their present concept of, “Brexit”, it is a figment of their imagination and not the actual truth.

    First of all the Westminster Parliament is not the parliament of Britain and so no matter what Westminster does Britain will not ne exiting anything at most only, the actually no longer existing, United Kingdom would be exiting Europe.

    So the actual truth is that Westminster is no longer the parliament of the United Kingdom it just acts as if it were. It runs as the Parliament of the country of England and to prove it used EVEL to make sure no other United Kingdom country can interfere in the running of England.

    “Alex Salmond would not have set that precedent if he believed that we were “sovereign” and could do what we wanted.”

    You are really comical, Rock, now you are claiming you know what Alex Salmond thinks.

    “Even though the SNP had been elected with a manifesto commitment to a referendum.”

    A commitment to hold a referendum does not conflate with anything other than committing to hold a referendum.

    “If Robert Peffers thinks he is smarter than Alex Salmond, he is seriously deluded.”

    Err!Excuse me, Rock, but when did I claim to be smarter than Alex Salmond? Wasn’t that exactly what you claimed just now when you claimed you knew what Alex was thinking?

    You quite obviously believe that Westminster is the sovereign authority over all Britain as it so often claims it is – even when Westminster itself cannot give any actual evidence that it is legally sovereign.

    The only actual evidence of Westminster’s sovereign powers was from the Glorious Revolution of 1688 when the Westminster PARLIAMENT OF ENGLAND held a revolution against THE KING OF ENGLAND, and forced him from THE THRONE OF ENGLAND.

    They then offered the crown, OF ENGLAND, to King Billy & Queen Mary on condition that they delegated their sovereign powers to THE PARLIAMENT OF ENGLAND.

    Until 1707 the kingdom of SCOTLAND was an independent kingdom so whatever the English did could not legally apply to Scotland.

    There has not been a legally elected Parliament of England since it sat and dissolved itself in 1707. So just where does the Parliament of the United Kingdom get it’s legal sovereignty from when modern Scots law states that the people are sovereign and so does the Treaty of Union?

    So how can the Parliament sitting at Westminster run itself openly as the de facto Parliament of England when no one has voted for a parliament of England since before 1707?

    Furthermore how can that parliament at Westminster, either as that of England or the UK, claim it has sovereignty over Scotland when it has no legal sovereignty over anyone except as laid down in the Treaty of Union that created it?

    You, Rock, are a fraud and you make idiotic claims but never back your daft claims with either evidence or logical conclusions.

  102. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Thanks Nana for the link to Kenneth Campbell QCs piece, I like the last paragraph , The british constitution is a Evolving Matrix .

  103. Nana says:

    Good picture of Billboard.

    https://twitter.com/meg_mrs/status/822251971147104256

    Breaking news Scotrail boss has resigned. Will that be the snp’s fault?
    I’m sure the bbc will let us know shortly.

  104. heedtracker says:

    WTF?

    He’s not here to talk to Scots. JC’s mob are trying to stop UKIPers taking over. So he’s trying to not exactly look like UKIPers but still show Labour heartlands that JC’s Lab is just like them, immigrants are bad.

    Its exact same reason JC flipped from being big cheese for CND, to being pro Trident. There are a lot of other JC’s principles that have been binned but look at the spectacular end of era SLab crew. All they’ve done is swing right, go after hard core unionist Scots.

    Both UKIPers and Labour have watched SLab’s demise very closely, with very differing reactions ofcourse. Eddie Hitler’s UKIPers and the tory led BBC can smell death, like horrible things that smell death, deliver the killing blow and then they want to watch it all.

  105. Fred says:

    Since the May Putsch she has repeatedly asserted that there will be no hard border with Eire while at the same time claiming to take back control of the UK borders. She can’t have it both ways. There will have to be a hard border around the six counties or she is talking shite. Presumably this putting the clock back will last forever, the Irish won’t tolerate it in these enlightened times & who is she going to find brave enough to man it?

  106. Proud Cybernat says:

    O/T

    Proud Cybernat’s Top 10 Most Viewed Imgurs (post #1 of 2):

    Enjoy!

    #10 http://imgur.com/t9d0XAe

    #9 http://imgur.com/Ofe5vmA

    #8 http://imgur.com/JXZm5m0

    #7 http://imgur.com/iPINCUG

    #6 http://imgur.com/7JLoALF

  107. Andrew McLean says:

    heedtracker says: 11:43 am

    WTF?
    “the tory led BBC can smell death, like horrible things that smell death, deliver the killing blow and then they want to watch it all.”

    Then love-devouring Death do what he dare!

  108. Proud Cybernat says:

    O/T

    Proud Cybernat’s Top 10 Most Viewed Imgurs (post #2 of 2):

    Enjoy!

    #5 http://imgur.com/9OrZcgN

    #4 http://imgur.com/Tlr1Ng8

    #3 – http://imgur.com/8FTJcQE

    #2 – http://imgur.com/7yLwLFV

    #1 – http://imgur.com/IWhJ0Wm

  109. heedtracker says:

    Andrew McLean says:
    20 January, 2017 at 12:04 pm
    heedtracker says: 11:43 am

    Ligger Neil doesn’t even bother having any JC crew on his BBC Politics says vote tory lunchtime show. He’s got far right Rees Mogg on his left and Kate Andrews, a ferocious American Con spin doc, ex Mit Romney ligger. And that probably says all you need to know about JC and Labour,

    https://twitter.com/KateAndrs

    Never off the BBC, on so much, her background thing’s the BBC QT studio show, hard core tory, extreme right, why no Lab MP’s or even SNP?

  110. sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers 12.50

    I can’t be bothered to respond to all the rubbish Robert so I will pick out just a few bits – but even that will require some effort.

    You wrote: “You will note also that I rarely speak of England, (the country), but usually of England the Kingdom. For the good reason that the debate is NOT about countries. It is about Kingdoms.”

    Robert, the art of communication is to make oneself understood and to understand what other people are saying to you. Whilst you may blather on about the difference between England the Country and England the kingdom – virtually no one else cares. Most folk know exactly what they mean when the say England – i.e. a defined area of land with map borders with Wales and Scotland. You seem unable to understand that and want to redefine the use of language to make some point to do solely with Scottish Independence.

    You keep telling us that this something is illegal, and something else is misunderstood by everyone but you. The rest of us “know” the situation without worrying about some piece of paper that you hang your hat on from 1502 or whatever. No one cares. Ms Sturgeon doesn’t care. Alex Salmond doesn’t care and almost no one other you cares. I understand that might be frustrating for you but not once have I heard the arguments you make being put forward by any serious politician trying to affect change in modern times.

    The result of all that Robert is simply this. Scotland will become Independent when a majority of Scottish voters vote for it – and that is the long and the short of it. Save yourself (and us) from all of your history lessons and accept that – and you will be fine. By the way, as I have said a number of times, I hope the people (the majority) in Scotland get whatever it is they want as far as Independence is concerned.

    Amongst my peers down here, that same attitude generally applies. I keep saying that “we” really don’t mind either way. It seems to me that you are unable to accept that. Why is that Robert? Is it that to “win” you need to also require that we down here must feel that we have lost?

    Please don’t take it as just some anti-Scottish thing – I am guessing that most down here also feel the same way about Wales and Northern Ireland. If a majority want to leave then leave they should. It’s as simple as that. We may be saddened or sorry to see a change but trust me, the populace is not going to be marching in the streets to demand that no one can leave the United Kingdom. It’s called democracy Robert. Down here, we are all for it.

    You quoted me ” – so you lump them all together and come up with stuff like “Little Englander”.”

    And then responded in your pedantic school master tone “Whoa There! Don’t you know the definition of, “Little Englander”? It is actually an English invented term?

    … and off you go again with one of your pedantic lectures. Everyone knows that the term “Little Englander” is a pejorative that is meant to stereotype a set of perceived negative characteristics. I remember Ming Campbell and a whole host of other politicians, many years ago, when the Euro currency was being launched, telling us that those that were against joining the Euro were “Little Englanders”. Again, the pejorative term designed to lump together everyone that disagreed with them into a negative stereotype.

    In 1999, Alex Salmond was quoted as describing the pound as a “millstone round Scotland’s neck” during a visit to Brussels. At the time he loved using the term “Little Englander” too.
    Although those that were against joining the Euro predominantly did so on the basis that they could not see it working and that interest rates in Germany would not be right for say Greece – i.e. sound financial logic and common sense, Salmond, Campbell and others did what you do now, i.e. try to package his political opponents into one negative, pejorative stereotype based on a racial stereotype.

    How did that work out Robert? How was Salmond’s economic forecasting then Robert? Were we “Little Englanders” or intelligent people that understood international finance better than he did – the idiot.

    You Wrote “Don’t you realise that those who support the Union in Scotland claim their country is the United Kingdom but no such Kingdom exists. The word Kingdom is not synonymous with the word country.”

    …. no I don’t “realise” that Robert. You must be one of very few people in the UK that doesn’t understand that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom (as is understood the world over except in the Peffers household) – and that my friend, is your problem.

    You wrote: “You cannot take the votes of countries and class them as if they were the component parts …. ”

    Yes I can Robert and yes we do. I can do exactly that. That is what the UK EU referendum was. No Nation, country, kingdom, Principality, dependency, area, region, constituency, etc or whatever was ever given the right of veto on the UK referendum vote. You know that. To suggest otherwise is to be completely disingenuous. You want and wish it to be otherwise – but it wasn’t and it isn’t.

    I wrote (but you quoted a truncated segment to deliberately mislead): …. “So, instead of lashing out at your fellow country folk that disagree with you on the destiny of Scotland”

    You responded: “Eh! Who me? You got the wrong guy there sensibledave. When did I ever lash out at my fellow countrymen?”

    Am I really having to do this Robert? This was my full sentence: “So, instead of lashing out at your fellow country folk that disagree with you on the destiny of Scotland …… you do your silly, cheap, baseless characterizations of good folk that didn’t have a vote in your indyref “

    Pathetic! You have done, without embarrassment, the tabloid thing of truncating quotes to try and illustrate the exact opposite of what is actually there in the full context. Is it not clear to anyone (other than your befuddled and confused mind) that the people that didn’t have a vote in your indyref – is everyone but Scots. Fool

    You wrote in a post earlier “I cannot understand why so many Scots cannot see that Westminster is the de facto Parliament of the Country of England.

    ….. Or, to paraphrase, you can’t understand why you are the only person in Scotland that is “in step”!!! And that again, is a complete summary of your problem in one self-penned, highly revealing sentence. It is you Robert that has got it wrong – the rest of us (including Ms Sturgeon), knows that Westminster is the UK’s Parliament and where MPs represent every constituency from the whole of the UK (you may have missed the fact that the SNP spectacularly, incredibly and brilliantly, managed almost a clean sweep of MP representatives from Scotland in the UK Parliament in Westminster.

    Each of those MPs has exactly the same rights to vote for a law as my local MP. In most political parties represented in Westminster, many MPs vote however they personally decide to vote on each issue. So, for instance, we get Tory MPs voting against their party and Labour MPs voting against their party. These MPs are voting with their conscience regardless of whether it may damage their career prospects or the aims of the majority of their party. There are other parties that are just there to wreck (a bit like UKIP in the EU Parliament) – whatever government proposals are made – they will be against them. Sometimes that might mean that government party rebels, plus the opposition can defeat the government and moderate law making. Again it’s called democracy Robert.

    Finally, with respect to the endless history lessons that you write and this whole issue regarding the constitutional status that you bang on about, can you please explain why Alex Salmond felt the need to demand a referendum and why Ms Sturgeon is suggesting another referendum on Scottish Independence is on the way?

    If you are correct, why is she bothering?

  111. galamcennalath says:

    This has been posted before. But I think it should be widely read. For me, this is the best explanation I have read about why Brexit is happening.

    Also think about slavering BritNats on newspaper comments, or hard right politicians, or even certain folks who came on here to troll.

    Although it focuses on ‘the English’ I think it equally applies to BritNat Scots.

    http://archive.is/6NC4N

    ” …. we could say the English have been unable to recognise how much of their society and its norms was constructed during the imperial period and in order to sustain empire, and have therefore been unable to mourn the empire’s passing or to escape from the compulsion to recreate it.” …. enter UKIP and Brexit.

    Also, think about the loss of prestige and status iScotland would bring them.

  112. mike cassidy says:

    Grousebeater 10.51

    Archived the flatley/trump correspondence.

    The actual page downloading nearly blew up my laptop.

    http://archive.is/amphn

  113. scotspine says:

    I wonder how many folk can actually be bothered reading what Sensible Dave says?

    As I scroll and come upon his posts, I simply skip over them like I would step over a dog shite on the pavement.

  114. heedtracker says:

    In 1999, Alex Salmond was quoted as describing the pound as a “millstone round Scotland’s neck” during a visit to Brussels. At the time he loved using the term “Little Englander” too.
    Although those that were against joining the Euro predominantly did so on the basis that they could not see it working and that interest rates in Germany would not be right for say Greece – i.e. sound financial logic and common sense, Salmond, Campbell and others did what you do now, i.e. try to package his political opponents into one negative, pejorative stereotype based on a racial stereotype.”

    Lots of your usual old sensibledave says NO or else waffle there, sensible:D

    There is no such thing as the English race sensibledave. Hate to break that to you. Why you think there is a race of English, says a great deal about you and all your non race, what do use this as a creepy get out.

    Its much like going abroad and listening to English ex-pats. They’re never immigrants sensible, always ex-pats.

    Also, sterling is ofcourse bad news for independence Scotland for obvious reasons. If we had joined the euro, whatever would you Project Fear types have used to terroriserise us all up here, Scots currency wise sensible? Alien invasion maybe.

    Also, why do you gimps think anyone, let alone Robert, is going to stop commenting on WoS?

    You’re a funny little Briton sensible.

  115. Bob MACK says:

    @senseless Dave,

    Try harder. That last post was uninformed pish, to put it kindly. .

    We need more evidence than just what you think are the truths of the matter.Do you now speak on behalf of all England. Your ego might allow you to do that on reflection.

    Regards

  116. Nana says:

    nicely timed for @jeremycorbyn visit to Scotland, Labour campaigning against Scotland funding settlement in largest English electoral test

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/822407585315880961

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/82540/nicola-sturgeon-attacks-%E2%80%98pitifully-ineffective%E2%80%99

  117. Proud Cybernat says:

    I wonder how many folk can actually be bothered reading what Sensible Dave says?

    As I scroll and come upon his posts, I simply skip over them like I would step over a dog shite on the pavement.

    Ditto.

    His ‘job’ is to provoke hostility here. He’s a right royal blue tit and no’ very bright if he thinks anyone here will fall for his pish.

  118. yesindyref2 says:

    Jeez, I prefer the night shift.

  119. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible Dave
    “No Nation, country, kingdom, Principality, dependency, area, region, constituency, etc or whatever was ever given the right of veto on the UK referendum vote. You know that. To suggest otherwise is to be completely disingenuous. You want and wish it to be otherwise – but it wasn’t and it isn’t.”

    No right of veto was implied, not one person says that the SNP wants to dictate to England, what the SNP did was democratically put a manifesto to its electorate, that’s democracy, in that manifesto it says if Scotland votes to stay then that is a material change that allows for an new independence referendum that is democracy.

    What is not democracy is that this Nation Scotland votes 56 MP’s to Westminster and as we have seen every single alteration was voted down by the vast majority of MP’s that is not democracy that is the tyranny of the majority. Forever telling Scotland that Westminster rules.

    Not only do you subvert and insult my right a a Scotsman but as a European Citizen, and that is a step too far.

    We the Nation of Scotland are sick to death of Westminster rules, take your Westminster and Whitehall rules and shove them up your arse!

  120. Conan the Librarian says:

    I almost got halfway down the tiresome troll’s post. Please people…DNFTT. I’ve got a blister on my mouse wheel finger.

  121. Valerie says:

    Neil Cook 10.54

    When I see Fluffy, I think of Renfield, the insect eating assistant to Dracula. The Gary Oldman version, imo, the best version. Renfield is a craven, grovelling and pathetic creature, like many in the Tory party, getting off on all the comparisons to the long dead vampire, or Iron Lady.

    So sick of reading the bile of stoopid Dave on here.

    In particular, his often repeated, me and my pals don’t care if Scotland becomes independent, yet he has nothing better to do than come on here and argue, denigrate.

    Why do Wingers lower their standards to engage with this guy?
    The points have been done to death.

  122. wull2 says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    20 January, 2017 at 12:44 pm
    I wonder how many folk can actually be bothered reading what Sensible Dave says?
    As I scroll and come upon his posts, I simply skip over them.

    You can count me, they are a waste of time reading them.

  123. Dr Jim says:

    Maybe captain sensible doesn’t have any friends in his own country or even street, he’s probably very lonely and forces himself to speak to the good folk of Scotland who are on the whole pretty polite to him poor soul that he is

    Proving that no matter what country you come from if you’re an Arse they don’t like you anywhere

    I can only think English folk must be really unkind to captain sensible confirming my opinion that I’m glad I don’t live there, but I already knew that coz that’s where half my family come from, and I suppose also proving the point as to why more English folk are moving to Scotland
    to get away from Arseholes like Dave

  124. louis.b.argyll says:

    Some great links on here last 24 hours. Thanks Wings.

    Am learning (without social media) to share and fwd interesting links to family members, telling them to share with pals when discourse creates relevance.

  125. Robert Graham says:

    wull2 @12.58 Aye as i said yesterday dont feed him , and as for his personal attacks on Robert Peffers , i regard that as an attack on us all here so Dave f/ck off you are as welcome as a fart in a lift pal .

  126. Grouse Beater says:

    Sententious Dave: “Robert, the art of communication is to make oneself understood and to understand what other people are saying to you.”

    More bollocks, only trite and banal this time.

  127. Breastplate says:

    Sensibledave,
    You’re quite simply dishonest. Why you think anyone should take what you say seriously beggars belief.
    The pretence of impartiality is annoying and amusing in equal parts.

    You also fail to understand that you scrutinise Scotland’s situation through the prism of Englishness giving you a false perspective each and every time.
    The view from here is completely different.

    I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t pro independence but hypocrisy sees to it that position changes when it comes to Scotland.

    You have the cheek to stand in a turd of your own making and blame everyone else for the stink.

    Have a nice day.

    P.S.
    Should Scotland be an independent country?

  128. heedtracker says:

    I think sensibledave’s funny. Its not just that toryboys like sensible completely own and dominate all UK zone media, BBC in particular but running right down their sewer into Express, P$J, Heil horrors, it’s all STILL not enough for them. They are that much of a pack sleazy old tory creeps.

    And they think they’re an actual race too:D

  129. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Andrew McLean –

    I was dejectedly scrolling through all the pish, then the last line of your 12.52 comment jumped out – first time I’ve laughed aloud today.

    Soo-perb.

  130. Maeg merrilees says:

    Cadogan

    Sad news that the Advan was vandalised last night. (- in genteel Edinburgh?)

    I hope the driver and his dog were safe at all times.

    Will be astonished if the BBC reports it – mind you they might, purely to say, – ‘Look, this is what will happen if you step out of line”

  131. Proud Cybernat says:

    For Twitterers –

    Indy Poll – thought you might want to get the Indy vote up:

    https://twitter.com/hashtag/Scotland?src=hash

    (Scroll down to second post – 1 day left)

    There’s another Indy poll further down same timeline (5 days left)

  132. heedtracker says:

    Nice display of tory BBC wtf.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38688561

    Could EU citizens get better UK access?
    Kamal Ahmed
    Economics editor

    Yes, the Prime Minister has been very clear about what the UK doesn’t want in its negotiations with the European Union.
    No free movement of people.

    But what about what it may offer to gain privileged access to the economically important single market?

    So, it could be on the table, I asked.
    “We are looking at the various systems that are possible at the moment. The key issue for people here in the UK is that we have control – that it is the British government that is deciding our immigration rules.”

    See some toryboy fudge popping out there?

  133. Andrew McLean says:

    heedtracker says:2 1:21 pm

    “And they think they’re an actual race too:D”

    I read a link to the Daily Hate, and read the posts, thank god for Police Scotland so our good “people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf”,

    But you are correct Heady, the call themselves the master race, well they bate a lot, they are certainly masters at that.

  134. Clapper57 says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says :

    “(For those who are interested, the next poll will be ‘Should Rock Get To Fuck Off WOS?’)”

    What ….just Rock ?

  135. K1 says:

    ‘Pathetic! You have done, without embarrassment, the tabloid thing of truncating quotes to try and illustrate the exact opposite of what is actually there in the full context’

    But…but isn’t that what you ‘actually’ do Davey boy:

    ‘sensibledave says:
    19 January, 2017 at 2:17 pm

    … and, in this age of post truth, fake news and bald faced hypocrisy…

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/snp-mps-fake-news/

    Oh dear’

    My reply to you on this:

    ‘K1 says:
    19 January, 2017 at 2:33 pm

    Davey boy?

    Really? That’s ‘fake’ news. He’s ‘using quotes to paraphrase the ‘essence’ of what she said’.

    What he tweeted was this:
    http://archive.is/hLVNG/4e203476f88b34339a51887386746d7cafc18f15.png

    Let me help you further, his exact tweet was:
    ‘In her own words this is what Theresa May said a (hashtag)HardBrexit would mean* for the people of of the UK’

    This is what you ran onto Wings with, archived: http://archive.is/hLVNG, which is ‘fake news’
    You are a complete buffoon Davey boy. LOL.
    *my bold’

    You misread and post the twisted contortions of others’ who also cannot ‘interpret’ information correctly? You twist the entire essence of what Robert and others are pointing out to ‘fit’ your biases Davey boy. You fail to comprehend the ‘meaning’ of what others are expressing.

    Then you insult and attack the person on the basis of this misreading and expose yourself as one who has a clear lack of understanding of the subject. Revert to spouting all manner of outlandish ‘assertions’ and ‘opinions’ formulated by what you have obviously accumulated from your own limited reading on the matters under discussion?

    The result is a mish mash of garbled and confused rhetoric mostly borrowed from the mainstream ‘thinking’ on such subjects, peppered with rage and an arrogant condescension toward others better informed than you are.

    I note you didn’t ‘respond’ after breathlessly running onto to Wings wi that fake news you posted yesterday Davey boy?

    You continue to embarrass yourself regularly on Wings, to ‘provoke’ any kind of reaction so that you can ‘accuse’ others of what? Being just like you? A British Nationalist with delusions of self importance and a need to ‘lord’ it over others you ‘decide’ are ‘fools’?

    Your’e in your own ‘personal’ fight club Davey boy. Keep knocking the fuck oot yersel’ it’s an absolute joy to watch a Little Englander duffin’ himself up!

  136. heedtracker says:

    Andrew McLean says:
    20 January, 2017 at 1:39 pm
    heedtracker says:2 1:21 pm

    Its probably more kneejerk reaction, from jerks, with no actual argument. But there is no English race, its very thick and very nasty to say stuff like, Scots who vote YES are racists.

    They could use another term, bigot, if they feel that not having your country run by your neighbour is discriminating actually against them. But they never do, its just always racism.

    At the end of it all, Brexit and Scottish independence is going to reduce and diminish the power and glory of England. Its just something they’re going to have to adapt too. They keep saying Brexit’s going to be the making of them, UK only, so best of British, I say:D

  137. John Edgar says:

    When the EU says that the deal you have at present as members of the EU is the best and only deal on the table, then take it or leave it. As you have elected to leave, the leave!
    You cannot insult the EU, leave and then want back “in” without paying the fees! The hard-done-by squeals by May and Hammond on claiming that we will be denied access by the baaad EU are absurd. And hitching your waggon to Trump as Farage’s claim that a deal can be done in 90 days post-Brexit, is true, any deal can be done in 90 days, but where are the details and small print? Making America great again is Trump’s aim, not the UK and the speshal relashonship.
    Trump makes deals and offers with demands and threats.
    Wise up, Scots, get out if this uk-union asap!!

  138. ronnie anderson says:

    bbcprotest.wordpress.com/ Chist ah we reminder

  139. yesindyref2 says:

    Jeez, as btl poster NK pointed out in the Herald, Verster is NOT MD of ScotRail, he’s MD of ScotRail Alliance and apparently employed by Network Rail.

  140. Meg merrilees says:

    Cadogan

    Thanks for the updates on the Advan.

    Hope the driver and his dog were safe at all times.

    Good news also that the company will honour the remaining contract and it might make for more impact to have the message restated in February.

    Will the BBC report this?
    They might for no other reason than to say -‘look, this is what will happen if you try to step out of line!’

  141. yesindyref2 says:

    MD of Scotrail AND Scotrail Alliance.

    I’m confused. Sounds like a bit of a conflict of interests to me.

  142. Meg merrilees says:

    I see Tim Farron has ‘attacked ‘Corbyn’ for issuing a party whip to his members to support Art 50.

    Farron said future generations would not forgive Corbyn on that position, accused them of simply giving up on a hard brexit and had put the party on the wrong side of the biggest political issue in a generation.

    Now read that again but substitute Nicola/Kezia for Farron/Corbyn.

    Sadly, for them, would seem there is an underlying consistency in how Labour is perceived in North and South Britain

  143. Albaman says:

    Sensibledave @ 12:21. P.m.
    Such a long posting, which was a complete waste of time.

  144. manandboy says:

    Like other similar material, this article is like a stethoscope – a device for listening to something unseen. I urge everyone, everywhere, to read and share it, because this problem of Government by the wealthy for the wealthy by means of corruption and mass fraud, has not even begun to be resolved. That is certainly the case in the UK under the Tory Government of Theresa May.
    I ‘m not able to say if that is true of the US, but I suspect it is.

    “What Democrats should learn from 2016”

    MEDIUM.COM|BY LESSIG

  145. heedtracker says:

    This Lab MP was on the Ligger Neil show at lunchtime and he’s going to vote Naw Thanks Brexit with the SNP. Good display of JC flip flop too.

    Neil Coyle ?@coyleneil Jan 18
    More
    The @UKLabour manifesto I stood on included strengthening our membership of EU. Remain is formal party policy. Govt position damages UK.

    SKY news,

    ]Jeremy Corbyn to order MPs to vote to trigger Article 50
    Jeremy Corbyn says Labour “respects the decision of the British people” to leave the EU and “will not block Article 50”.

    Its some display of wtf are they doing. Probably be just more Lab infighting though, any excuse.

  146. James Christie says:

    Torrance and Dugdale are clearly wrong, but Massie’s point is defensible. The middle ground doesn’t have to enjoy majority support; it could merely be the position that alienates fewest voters. None of the four positions can command majority support, but it’s possible that remaining in both the UK and the EU is viewed as either first or second choice by a majority. In both polls the polar opposite position (ie independent and outside the EU) commands the lowest support. You might therefore reasonably argue that the status quo pre-Brexit does occupy the centre ground, and is considered a tolerable compromise by a majority. However, that’s mere speculation. It would be interesting if your poll asked for second choices. That is clearly an important question if there is no majority of any of the four positions.

  147. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Clapper57 –

    🙂

    Well, you’ve got to start somewhere, and that boring pillock would definitely be my chosen point of departure.

  148. Andrew McLean says:

    I was shocked to see the ad van, I thought some paint had been put on it, but this! I hope police Scotland have been informed, notwithstanding this may be just another vandalism incident, the police will know if there have been similar incidents in the area, therefore not political,
    The alternative is some armed idiot is walking the streets of Edinburgh with an knife attacking Independence targets.

    Where were Scotland in union last night, Ruth was that you on operations? http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g97/205997/205997_1264702551_submedium.jpg

  149. Breeks says:

    If Westminster does go for a Trade Deal with the US, and it is a TTIP rehash, I rather suspect Scottish farmers will insist on a hard Border with England if only to restrict contamination of Scottish produce by GM crops and foodstuffs and inferior practice.

    I recall one Borders Farmer I spoke to around the Foot and Mouth epidemic which Scotland managed to control with rigourous effort, but which farmers and DEFRA south of the border seemed unable to get on top of and stop from spreading. The nearer Foot and Mouth came to his farm, the angrier he got. That was 2001, hard to believe, but faith in the vets and controls applied South of the border was in very short supply, where faith in our own capacities to do likewise was much higher.

    I’m not sure that a hard Border would fix or prevent that, but rather than a hard Border, I’m pretty sure Scottish farmers would want a herd Border for livestock and foodstuffs.

    That assumes of course that Scotland does secure its place inside Europe. If Scotland is “Brexited” against its will, that Herd Border will come down somewhere, and Scotland might find itself on the wrong side of it.

  150. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    Jeremy Corbyn to order MPs to vote to trigger Article 50

    The problem I have is that agreeing to trigger A50 isn’t simply about leaving the EU, it’s about handing power over to a small inner clique of hard right Tories to decide how the UK leaves.

    It’s going to happen. At least parts of the UK will leave. But under what circumstances?

    To his eternal shame and damnation Cameron allowed a referendum where one side had no manifesto, no plan, no clarity. Leave won, but what did ‘leave’ actually mean?

    IMO Corbyn should take the line that Parliament needs to take control of the direction this process takes. Who else should? Certainly not the wee nutter clique.

    May says ‘Brexit means Brexit’. Corbyn should have been saying ‘Brexit means what parliament says it means’. There should be amendments giving parliament control, and if these aren’t accepted Lab should vote against the bill.

  151. Joybell says:

    I stopped reading Sensible Dave posts weeks ago. The reason he posts here is to stir up anti-English sentiment. If he gets a glimmer he thinks he has had success.

    I’m married to an English man. S D is not fit to tie my husband’s laces.

  152. heedtracker says:

    Scotland cannot afford to become independent, says Jeremy Carrell and Severin Corbyn, of the Graun.

    Looks Project Fear 2 kicked off today.

    and the Vow 2, too

    “He endorsed a call from his critic and previous opponent Gordon Brown, the former Labour prime minister, for the UK to return EU powers over farming, fisheries and social programmes to devolved parliaments. Scotland should also have power over VAT sales tax and employment rights after Brexit.”

    Will they fuck.

  153. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    … hard Border with England if only to restrict contamination of Scottish produce by GM crops and foodstuffs and inferior practice.

    Scotland’s agriculture prides itself on the quality of its products. If we Brexit and have a trade deal with the US, we can kiss that crucially important part of our economy goodbye.

    US agricultural farming practices and produce are horrendous.

    A trade deal will inevitably bring two things. Shite food products and private healthcare companies dismantling the NHS across the UK.

    During IndyRef1 I took it for granted that there would be a open border and free movement between iScotland and iEngland. It is a measure of just how mad Brexit is that now I believe full border controls will be essential.

  154. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 20 January, 2017 at 12:21 pm:

    “I can’t be bothered to respond to all the rubbish Robert so I will pick out just a few bits – but even that will require some effort.”

    Oh! My! For a numptie who, “can’t be bothered”, there is a a very long screed of text following the claim.

    “Robert, the art of communication is to make oneself understood and to understand what other people are saying to you.”

    So, sensibledave. Why not follow your own advice. You are signally deficient in comprehending basic English Language. An English that is my second language. Being born on a then remote farm that had no mains electricity I never heard English spoken until my first day in the nearest village school.

    These were the days when the Dominies administered the Lochgelly Tawse liberally and often. I was a quick learner, sensibledave and throughout my education never fell below second top in English language and only that once because of a prolonged illness,

    ” … Whilst you may blather on about the difference between England the Country and England the kingdom – virtually no one else cares.”

    And there we have the nub of the matter, sensibledave.

    Those, “virtually everyones”, you now speak of will, of course, be the very same ones you, “live amongst”, those who each and every one of them, told you the don’t care.

    The very same ones who never elected you as their spokesperson but you appoint yourself to speak for.

    And you accuse me of being unable to clearly communicate?

    Well, sensibledave – allow me to communicate this – that I’m almost certain you will understand fully :-

    The entire breakdown now taking place across the entire area covered by the claimed United Kingdom: –

    Note it is not either Great Britain nor is it Britain but also claims it is one or both of these things as well as claiming to be a single country.

    Is directly caused by the imperialism of the de facto Parliament of the country of England that wrongly claims it has sovereignty over the claimed bipartite United Kingdom. That ignored the true nature of the Treaty of Union that gave birth to the supposed United Kingdom, but is now attempting to openly run, (It uses EVEL), the supposed United Kingdom as the de facto Parliament of the Country of England with English sovereign powers that it pretends to devolve small powers to the three other former United Kingdom’s three integral countries and has relegated its only actual partner Kingdom in the United Kingdom to being just one more English dominion of such countries.

    There is not even one of the countries in the actual Kingdom of England that is not now in turmoil. The only other Kingdom in the United Kingdom is in turmoil. The two parts of the country of Ireland are in turmoil and here is sensibledave claiming he speaks for all of the country of England, (you did claim them as your countrymen not as fellow Kingdom of England compatriots), don’t care.

    Aye! sensibledave they care, thing is, and this is not just my opinion, the vast majority of people in the now, disunited in all but name, Kingdom do not really understand why they are dissatisfied – but dissatisfied they most certainly are.

    So, sensibledave, as no more useful purpose can be gained by attempting to communicate with a rather poor communicator like yourself, I bid you goodbye!

    PLONLK!

  155. One_Scot says:

    Just read the story of the BBC Mis- Reoprting Scotland Advan being vandalized.

    https://informscotland.com/photo-opps-billboards-daily-schedule/

    Absolutely shocking behaviour from Yoons. Clearly the campaign is having an impact or why would they bother risking criminal prosecution.

    Can’t imagine the story will get much coverage from the Yoon media, but I’m sure it would be very different if it was a few Yes stickers on a window.

    Honestly cannot wait until we are free of these nutters.

  156. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    “We have a democratic duty to decide for ourselves”

    Very good, thanks.

    Reference to the Claim of Right 1989 which said …

    We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.

    It then talked about a devolved parliament.

    Is not perhaps time to have Claim of Right 2017 signed by MSPs, MPs, MEPs?

    Perhaps the Supreme Court judgement might provide a foundation for an update.

  157. Smallaxe says:

    Andrew McLean:

    No, that wasn’t Ruth, too good looking!

    Peace Always Brother

  158. Andrew McLean says:

    Small Axe
    well I didn’t want to insult the lass.
    🙂

  159. Tam Jardine says:

    Re exports- I’ve been looking at the global connections survey which the unionists have been treating as gospel in order to push the angle that Scotland is so reliant on exportd to the rest of UK that we can’t be independent.

    They are hammering the rUK is 4 times more important than EU angle relentlessly. Ignoring the reasons why the data contains all kinds of health warnings on its accuracy (as well it should) let’s treat the £76 billion figure as gospel- the total figure quoted by the Scottish Government (excluding oil and gas for reasons unknown to me).

    If you look at it in terms of exports/ population we are 5th highest. The rUK is languishing at 22nd out of 29 if my figures are correct. We export more in total than countries like Hungary, Denmark, Portugal, Finland, Greece, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Romania despite having a lower population.

    You factor in oil and gas and the situation is obviously even better.

    This is what the public is not being told.

    what we are told is that the UK is going to get a great trade deal- a deal which simultaneously would be punitive for Scotland’s trade with the rUK. The exact same deal!

    If there are massive tariffs between rUK and the EU Scotland will suffer. If there are massive tariffs between rUK and the EU the rUK would suffer.

    The difference would be that Scotland’s trade with one country would be affected (albeit our largest export market). The rUK’s trade with all 28 of the EU members including a newly independent Scotland would be affected, along with all the countries the EU currently has trade deals set up.

    The survey itself is interesting and I will post something on the responses later. I am waiting to hear back from the Scottish Government on it. The way of the yoons is to get a stat out there however unreliable and hammer it home hundreds and hundreds of times on TV, on the radio, in print, on the Web and on social media. The reliability of the claims do not matter. This needs challenged head on.

  160. Andrew McLean says:

    Headtracker

    Bigot, I remember when I was little not to worry if I was called a bigot as its actually a proud thing to be, as protestants to be burned at the stake would proclaim “By God’s grace we will stand for Jesus contend. for the faith and never give in to the Pope of Rome”. The Priests started to call them “BI-GODITES” that has become bigot.

    That may be incorrect. but it suited the narrative.

  161. Sheryl Hepworth says:

    heedtracker at 3.02pm says
    “He endorsed a call from his critic and previous opponent Gordon Brown, the former Labour prime minister, for the UK to return EU powers over farming, fisheries and social programmes to devolved parliaments. Scotland should also have power over VAT sales tax and employment rights after Brexit.”
    NO Heed, they won’t give us any ‘powers’ they will shut down the devolved assemblies including our Holyrood!! That is exactly what they want so we will have NO SAY on anything and they can frack, pollute and rip our country apart!!!

  162. Meg merrilees says:

    Re Corbyn saying he will instruct his MP’s to back the WM Gov in triggering Art.50.
    This rather pre-empts anything the UKSC might have to say on the subject and could it put him in the position where he might be instructing them to act illegally?. p

    Gina Miller has said that she thinks TMay’s speech is a deliberate attempt to side-step the UKSC announcement next week as people have already been saying to her that TMay’s intention to give Parliament a vote at the end of negotiations renders the Miller objection obsolete.
    Miller of course is trying to get the message across that her case is about the legality of the Gov to trigger and proceed with those negotiations, in he first place, without Parliamentary consent – a completely different argument that the press is only to happy to obfuscate.

    Miller has already been described as having been ‘slapped down by TMay’ in her speech this week.

    The Union is on high alert and it’s great to see that an advan can strike home. What will be the effect of the billboards?
    What next?

    PS well done Andy Murray and Dan Evans.

  163. galamcennalath says:

    Sheryl Hepworth says:

    they will shut down the devolved assemblies including our Holyrood

    Indeed. There is a theory, a believe, that devolution only came about because of pressure from the EU.

    If true, then the converse will be true. Without the EU, devolution could be swept aside.

    If Scotland votes to stay attached to the UK and Brexits with it, then any further ‘trouble’ from Holyrood and WM will simply close it down. Of that I am certain. Direct rule from WM would solve all their ‘Scotland problems’ in a stroke of a pen.

  164. sensibledave says:

    I’ll pick just one …

    Andrew McLean 12:52 pm

    We have exchanged comments before and you argue reasonably and passionately so I will respond appropriately (rather than in the more forceful tone I used with Mr Peffers).

    You wrote: “No right of veto was implied, not one person says that the SNP wants to dictate to England, what the SNP did was democratically put a manifesto to its electorate, that’s democracy, in that manifesto it says if Scotland votes to stay then that is a material change that allows for an new independence referendum that is democracy.

    I totally agree and have said so above – so have a referendum.

    Please bear in mind that in England we have only one election for government i.e. Westminster. It is the one and only place and time that the electorate in England get to express their views and preferences – for good or bad. Westminster is the Parliament for the whole of the UK. You, in a constituency in Scotland, the single parent living in a bedsit in Belfast, the Rev in Bristol (or is it Bath?), the owner of the country manor in Shropshire and the Traffic Warden that lives in a deprived area in Swansea – all have one vote too – just like me.

    Together, we all vote to decide the destiny of the UK.

    It cannot be, under any circumstances, that one person’s vote in a given area is given weighting or importance over that of anyone else. Agreed?

    To state the blindingly obvious, if Scotland doesn’t want to be bound by that then it needs to vote to leave the UK. Neither I, nor any of the rest of folk in England, Wales or Northern Ireland have any influence whatsoever whether Scotland is in, or out, of the UK.

    Therefore, until such time as Scotland leaves the UK then democracy dictates that the UK votes as whole and accepts the result as a whole – just as I have had to do.

    People ask why I come here? They conveniently forget that they have voted for MPs that have the power, with others, that affect the laws that affect me and my fellow countrymen.

    The SNP MPs want to influence the laws that affect me and they have every right to do so. I have every right to question them, their politics, their policies, their methods and their propaganda in their efforts to affect laws that affect me. Do I not? Scottish Independence supporters hang out on Wings and express, as voters, their opinions and actively invite comments from others – whether they agree with an SNP policy or not and whether they are pro Indy or not.

    I am neither pro nor anti Scottish Independence. I don’t care. I do care if the subject of Scottish Independence attempts to interfere, claim special circumstances, the power of veto, the ability to slow down or wreck – a policy decided by the only Parliament or by a referendum in which I have my one vote and which a majority of the voters represented by the the UK Parliament have expressed their wishes.

    To again, state the obvious, If Scotland is in the UK then, just like me and everyone else, the voters in Scotland should abide by the democratic results of the outcome of voting by the whole of the UK electorate. If it doesn’t want to be bound by the decisions of the UK electorate, then it needs to leave the UK.

    As a reminder, the Scots were given the option. They chose.

    Once again though, Ms Sturgeon seeks to hold the rest of the UK to ransom and attempts to interfere with the outcome of a UK referendum through any means she deems appropriate. I care not a jot for her threats or whether she is bluffing or not I only care that she does not succeed in her aims to obfuscate or interfere with the outcome. She had her vote, I had mine you had yours. I guess all 3 of us ended up on the losing side. The difference is Andrew, I am a democrat and I accept the will of the majority of the people and now seek to make the best of the situation to get the best deal for the UK.

    You will note above, so many of your fellow commenters cannot hide their wish that the UK suffers before and after Brexit – because of their very narrow single issue aims they believe a failing UK will help the cause for Scottish Independence.

    Providing everyone acts within the law, then all of this is fair game within the free press and free politics we enjoy.

    You wrote: “We the Nation of Scotland are sick to death of Westminster rules, take your Westminster and Whitehall rules and shove them up your arse!

    I totally understand your sentiments and there are many occasions where I personally have felt similar emotions. There is one very big problem with your paragraph though. You wrote “We the Nation of Scotland…. “.

    Wrong Andrew. Based upon the recent, and only poll when Scots were given a choice to fully support your full paragraph – they chose not to. They said they want to remain in the UK.

    Now I am told that Scots want to stay in the EU and leave the UK. Well the only way that we will find out is for there to be another referendum.

    If you, or Ms Sturgeon, believe you speak on behalf of the majority of Scots (because democratically speaking, that is the only voice that matters) then have a referendum – or accept the democratic will of the people of the UK.

    But no one believes she will hold a referendum. She is so used to attacking and wrecking – she has forgotten how to defend.

    On a very personal level, Ms Sturgeon, by her actions, seeks to affect the outcome of the referendum and wants to fight the will of the people of the UK (remember, I agreed with her originally). She is now an enemy of democracy so I feel the right to express personal views on her failed strategy/bluff.

    She has cornered herself now and her political career is probably on the line. If she doesn’t hold a referendum pre Brexit, she will be the First Minister of the Scottish Parliament and leader of the SNP with a thumping majority that was too frit to hold a referendum – or she does have a referendum and will be the First Minister and Leader of the SNP that couldn’t win a referendum for Independence – even when Scots were being asked to choose between the EU and the UK – and that will be the end of her.

    She has over played her hand and cocked it up for the cause and herself by over-playing it.

  165. Nana says:

    @galamcennalath 4.46pm

    I can’t find the article from before the indyref 2014 but this is very good from Newsnet.

    http://newsnet.scot/archive/scottish-devolution-and-the-labour-myth/

  166. Nana says:

    Meant to say the devolution papers have not been released. Wonder what they are hiding from us?

  167. Tam Jardine says:

    sensibledave

    So to summarise- Scotland shouldn’t veto rest of uk’s decision (nobody on here wants it to and it can’t anyway)

    If Scotland wants to stay in the EU we’ll need to vote for independence (which is self evidently the case).

    You don’t think the FM will call another referendum (time will tell but I can’t see how she can’t).

    Your post makes me look positively abrupt!

    If you did indeed vote remain then I just feel pity for you- we have a way out of this economic catastrophe and you do not.

    Scotland making a success of independence within the EU is the only way anything will change in the way England is governed. We are, if you like, your only hope.

    enjoy your weekend, fellow winger

  168. Grouse Beater says:

    Sententious Dave: “Sturgeon has cornered herself now and her political career is probably on the line.”

    Whoa! More bollocks from the master of bollocks.

  169. yesindyref2 says:

    I’ll pick just one …

    What’s wrong with the other nostril?

  170. K1 says:

    He’ll snort…derisively at that…yesindy 😉

  171. mike d says:

    If there is a vote in parliament to trigger article 50,the snp should abstain and walk out on the grounds that their vote counts for nothing and therefore the people of Scotland are being ignored as usual.

  172. Andrew Mclean says:

    Sensible David

    Sorry for the tardiness in my reply.

    I think reading your posts you fail to acknowledge the reality of political life in Scotland.
    When you talk of the mandatory powers of MPs and how one vote has the same effect in Westminster, yes you are correct, but only to the extent of non delegated powers.
    So in effect the day to day legislation that governs the Scottish nation is becoming so distant from Westminster, that controls England, your argument during EVIL was correct, but EVEL was not enough, England should have its own parliament, the fact that it doesn’t is more to do with the politics of power than addressing a vacuum.

    The no vote in the independence referendum did not mean Scotland became absorbed by England, neither did the act of union in 1707, Scotland is a nation, so is England, to say otherwise is both politically and factually incorrect.

    Not one person here has ever said England should not Brexit, actually I believe you should never have joined, not the right temperament, you never bought into that idea, that vision. Scotland once had dual citizenship with France, we fought together against English aggression, so it wasn’t so alien to us.

    As for the referendum, you voted one way, the Scottish voted another, and that has to be dealt with, whither you like it or not.

    When the last debate on independence started we had 15 to 20% of the vote, given the lies about currency, health, etc you kept us at 48%. The chances you will hold us to 49.9999% are fantastically low.

    We will have a referendum, but not when you want, but when we want. It could be today, or in the years to come. But come it will.

  173. sensibledave says:

    Andrew 1.32

    … thank you for replying.

    Of course I understand and recognize some of the differences in circumstances that you refer to.

    But there are, for me, and probably all other folk that do not vote for the SNP in the UK, some “red lines”.

    If “The UK” is being asked a question (i.e. what governement do you want at Westminster? or, do you want to remain or leave the EU?) then the outcome of that vote, by whatever voting system is being used, must apply to everyone in the UK.

    As I have tried to explain to other Wingers, the “region” generally accepted as the constituencies known as covering London and the South East also voted (if counted as a bloc) to Remain. As you know, I voted Remain as did the majority of people living within 50 odd miles of me (the majority of some 19 million voters) – but me, London and the South East, you personally and Scotland were outvoted by larger majorities elsewhere.

    How on earth could we would allow a situation to prevail where the outcome of a vote in any of the Home nations gave an effective veto? It cannot be. It isn’t anti-scottish or anti- anybody. The only possible outcome acceptable for the “UK” in a referendum is therefore the majority decision.

    It seems however that many Wingers take this news as somehow anti-Scottish, Yoonish! Was the result in Wales (i.e. a majority Leave vote) an anti-English vote? Of course not. Has the result I Wales and other parts and regions of the UK meant that SCotland, together with London and the SOuth East been outvoted – Yes!

    I understand that you will have a referendum when you want. That is your democratic decision. At the same time you must understand that until you do, and you win it, then we have to carry on as we are because there is no alternative given the result of indyref1.

    Finally, and this is the nub of yours, and so many others here on Wings, you regularly refer to me as “You”. Examples being:

    “As for the referendum, you voted one way, the Scottish voted another, and that has to be dealt with, whither you like it or not.

    and “We will have a referendum, but not when you want, but when we want. It could be today, or in the years to come. But come it will.

    Firstly, I voted the same way as you in the EU Referendum and I didnt have a vote in the SCottish Referendum. To try and paint me or other folk like me as “you” is as silly as it is inacurate.

    The only reason why Scotland is not on its way to leaving the UK is because of the outcome of indyref1 where the result was decided by a few hundred thousand voters in SCotland. They Andrew should be your target and your completely misdirected ire towards me for instance, i.e. the messenger, is just silly.

    The assumption amongst Wingers that those that didn’t vote for Scottish Independence in your indyref are “Yoons” is the sum total of your problem and why you make it harder to achieve your goals.

    Ms Sturgeon’s most recent pronouncements are way off the mark because she appears to not understand this either. I don’t care whether she is bluffing or not. I really don’t care. I do care if she holds up or prevents Brexit but I don’t care whether SCotland is part of it or not. This again is not anti-Scottish, quite the reverse – it is “pro” the Scottish majority – whatever that is. So, whether Ms Sturgeon is bluffing or not is a non-issue for me. I certainly wont moderate my views on what I want for the UK because of her stance anymore than I would if “london” or “South Oxfordshire” was objecting to the outcome.

    I believe that almost everything Ms Sturgeon utters on this subject is about trying to show difference whether it is there or not. Ms Sturgeon says we need to have a soft Brexit when she knew and should have always known that a hard Brexit is the only Brexit that is/was going to happen.

    The Cleggish/Farron approach of trying to argue that the EU referendum is somehow unclear is silly. We all know what the EU comprises including a Justice system, Free movement customs union, single market, net contributions, etc. We were all told that a vote to Leave was vote to leave the Single Market. No one could or should have been in doubt. I wasn’t – which is why I voted Remain.

    The question was “do want the UK to Leave or Remain in the EU”. A vote to Leave was implicitly accepting that we would Leave the single Market, Leave the Customs Union, cease Free movement, etc. Then we would try and negotiate a new arrangement that would be agreed as two independent parties doing a deal that they both accept – whatever that is.

    Ms Sturgeon knows that so her red line of leaving the Single Market is grandstanding and false. You and I know that. That is an invented interpretation that she believes helps her in achieving whatever she wants to achieve. That is her right. It also, I believe, the right of the rest of us to ignore it if we wish. If it a red line for the majority of Scots then she needs to have a referendum and prove and stop grandstanding – it will get her nowhere.

    Furthermore, as I suggested in another thread, in my personal opinion, she has overplayed her hand and cornereed herself. Either people don’t believe her or they don’t care if she does have a referendum – so the “threat” of a referendum carries no weight – because no one feels threatened.

    However, she has put her political credibility on the line. The UK is not going to have a “soft” Brexit – so Scotland will either Brexit with the rest of us or there will be another indyref – and she isn’t going to call that – because she knows she will lose it.

    Whilst I take no pleasure from it, I watched Michael Portillo responding to the SNP chap on “This Week” last Thursday. Somewhat playfully, Mr Portillo was asking when indyref THREE will be and the SNP chap looked very uncomfortable. There was the first actual evidence I had seen of the visible lack of credibility of the SNP stance. Which is sad really.

  174. Grouse Beater says:

    Sententious Dave: “As I have tried to explain to other Wingers.. blah, blah. blah”

    Sententious Dave is back with a treble load of bollocks and in one post, snuck in by the back door when he thought no one will be looking, but it’s the same narcissistic, self righteous, clap-trap as before.

    His crapology in a nutshell: You Jocks must learn to do as you’re told. How many last warnings must I give you!

    Same vain whinge as always – The SNP and all those poor wee Wingers get it wrong time after time. If ONLY they’d listen to Sententious Dave their lives would be altered for the better. Together. (Oops! That just slipped out.)

  175. sensibledave says:

    Errr . this was a dead thread Grousey – with just Andrew and I in conversation.

    You keep saying things like “treble load of bollocks” but you are never actually specific about pointing out an incorrect fact.

    For the record Grousey, I take absolutely no notice of what you say. You are too “single issue”. You can’t see the wood for the trees and everything you utter is just a long winded moan. Hence the name I guess.

  176. Grouse Beater says:

    Sententious Dave: “For the record, I take absolutely no notice of what you say.”

    Said the man who ‘takes no notice of what Sturgeon says’, but takes twelve column inches to give his opinion on what Sturgeon says, and repeats it every opportunity.

    Another load of bollocks from the man who put just can’t stand being thought of as terminally stupid and does all he can to prove it.

  177. sensibledave says:

    … As I said Grousey, your views have no value and do not contribute to debate because you just moan and insult. IF you ever have a thought other than ENgland Bad, UK Bad, Westminster Bad, May Bad, sensibledave Bad … then that will be a revelation.

    There’s only you and me here now Grousey so we can speak frankly. It is people like you that are the barrier to Scottish Independence. I have absolutely no sway – nor do I want to have. You seem not to be able to understand that some people will judge which “club” they might be a member of based upon the utterings and approach of the existing membership. You sir are a perfect example of why your cause will struggle to get over the line – because people are not attracted to your aggressive “everyone’s against me” approach and your inane, sanctimonious claptrap.

    At least Robert Peffers knows he is boring and repetitive!

  178. Grouse Beater says:

    Sententiuous Dave: “As I said Grousey, your views have no value and do not contribute to the debate”

    A dullard unionist says only his views have any validity. Bollocks rule, okay!

  179. sensibledave says:

    … no Grousey – I give a view and explain it – you don’t. As you have just done above you insult and swear – because you haven’t got the smarts to debate.

    If i write that Ms Sturgeon has cornered herself and then explain why I think that – then, if you disagree with me and you are not just t**t, you can explain where or why you think I am wrong. It is possible I have missed something (unlikely, but possible).

    But you don’t. You behave like a 5 year old and metaphorically stick your tongue out as the only response. When you do that, do you think I am persuaded by the power of your thought and argument – or do you think I think that if you are representative of the intelligence and brain power within the SI movement then it is doomed to consistent failure because you cannot give a positive, cohesive argument for your desired result?

    If you are anywhere near to having influence over your country folk on these matters then I fear you face a very long struggle. But, hey, I don’t mind either way as long as the SI movement isn’t allowed interfere with the will of the people of the whole of the UK. As soon as Scotland isn’t in the UK then the Scots can do whatever they like – until then suck it up and make the best of it even though your own particular desired outcome was not successful (just like me). Bloody democracy eh.

  180. Grouse Beater says:

    Sententious Dave: “you haven’t got the smarts to debate.”

    A unionist says no one is capable of debating with his level of bollocks.

  181. K1 says:

    ‘do you think I am persuaded by the power of your thought and argument’

    Do you think anyone is persuaded by the power of your thought and argument?

    It’s not ‘your’ ‘argument’ that’s in question. You merely parrot what you have been taught ‘to’ think, It is you who does not ‘debate’ Davey boy. You repeat what you ‘read’ and ‘hear’ from pundits and merely regurgitate those ‘established’ viewpoints, repeatedly.

    In effect, you come on to Wings and bluster in a condescending utterly obnoxious manner. That’s not debating Davey boy, that’s a wee boy, (an ‘immature’ adult), who ‘thinks’ what ‘he’ has to say is more important than what any one else has to say and indulges in humiliating others as a means of ‘proving’ his superiority. What this approach does is suck any validity out of any ‘point’ you may make and it is that, that you are getting pelted for.

    The two combined amount to: “I read this thing and I agree with it, I heard this thing and I agree with it, my logic is sound and you are all off the mark. How can you all be so stupid as not to agree with ‘me’? If you answer me back and it doesn’t exactly match the thing that I am speaking about and I don’t understand it, I am going to piss all over ‘you’ and tell ‘you’ that ‘you’ are missing ‘my’ point, and if you then get really pissed off with my circular logic, well then that just proves that ‘you’ are a ‘fool’ and ‘idiot”!

    And round and round it goes.

    We see you Davey boy. There really isn’t gong to be some ‘imagined’ (in your heid) moment in the future when you have ‘proved’ yourself ‘right’ on here. None of us is going to have an epiphany and realise that Davey boy was ‘onto’ something. We’re all quite capable of reading and understanding what is happening in our world and of having our own views on a wide range of issues surrounding our political circumstances.

    There is genuine debate on these threads. No one is pissing all over everyone else. You are the only person that comes on to Wings to take a piss on people. Then you wonder why people tell you to fuck off? No one likes getting pissed on. So it’s simple: Fuck off wi that behaviour until you become adult enough to actually debate properly.

  182. sensibledave says:

    Grousey 12.07

    You provide me with a perfect example of your idiocy and projection in one stupid response.

    You wrote: “A unionist says no one is capable of debating with his level of bollocks.”

    A) I am not a Unionist. I just happen to be in a Union – I have been since I was born.

    B) I didn’t say “no one is capable …” I said you weren’t

    C) As discussed above, apparently you think I am writing bollocks but you do not point to a particular phrase. Is it that you think my belief in democracy is bollocks for instance.

    You see what I mean Grousey? You wrote one short sentence and got 3 things wrong in just 14 words. Impressive!

    Are you sober? Are you the written word equivalent of the shouty drunk in the street spouting profanities at passers by Grousey?

  183. K1 says:

    “I read what you wrote Grousey”

    “I ‘read’ into what you wrote and decided that this is what you meant Grousey”

    “I continued to form the rest of what I said according to my ‘reading’ of what you wrote Grousey”

    “You are ‘so’ (insert number to embellish ‘strength’ of how wrong you are) wrong Grousey, about what my ‘reading’ of what you wrote was about Grousey”

    “I’m going to insult you now Grousey, using pejorative imagery about drunks”

    *Davey boy…leans back blowing smoke rings oot his arse*

  184. sensibledave says:

    What’s up K1?

    You are like another toddler jumping up and down demanding my attention.

    This is surreal. Here we are in dead thread where nobody is watching and you appear to be demanding that I engage with you K1.

    Sorry, you should still be at playschool shouldn’t you?

  185. K1 says:

    There you are Davey boy…gotcha: insult first, next and last. Exactly ‘who’ you are. 😉

  186. sensibledave says:

    KI … you should know that insulting people is not generally my style, I much prefer debate.

    However, given that it appears to be just me, Grousey and you here – I feel it is ok to respond more forcefully than normal. Are you two sharing a brain cell?

    Do let me know if, at some point, you have got a point to make about politics. In the meantime, feel free to have a tantrum and shout at the world because we are all against you you know. We really are. The people of London and South east England voted Remain just to pee off Ms Sturgeon and her troops. Ooops! No we didnt! We voted the same way as the SNP supporters!!! Them bloody suveners eh, voting the same way as you just to wind you. Bleedin liberty!

  187. Grouse Beater says:

    K1: “You come on to Wings and bluster in a condescending utterly obnoxious manner.”

    On target, K1. And much obliged.

    He won’t accept opinion is not facts nor is conjecture. There’s a disturbing aspect to the way he insists on repeating the same opinion. Worse, he demonstrates a glaring immaturity, the need to dominate and hold attention. Poorly informed opinion is easily dealt with, but we’re faced by a personality who insists on belittling anybody who dares tackle him, and then adds, “Insulting people is not my style”. Sheesh.

  188. K1 says:

    ‘I feel it is ok to respond more forcefully than normal.’

    That’s an ‘alternative fact’ Davey boy.

    ————————————-

    ‘who insists on belittling anybody who dares tackle him, and then adds, “Insulting people is not my style”. Sheesh.’

    Indeed the evidence supports the case that Davey boy lacks the prerequisite attributes for ‘debate’ that he ‘claims’ he alone possesses. Further…we now adjourn this session of the surreal dud thread, on the grounds that we have made our case: Davey boy is indeed a maister bater. Laters Grouse 🙂

  189. Grouse Beater says:

    K1, Agreed

    To normality and beyond…

  190. sensibledave says:

    KI

    You seem unable to understand the most basic points K1!

    You have not responded to political points that I have raised – you just want to talk about me?!?!

    You haven’t “tackled” me, i.e take issue with or argue against anything I have written – you just take issue with my style!

    Pick any thread from the last few days where I was engaging with you all. Then, let me know and I will cut and paste every insult thrown at me and you can compare with any insults that you think I have made.

    You talk about me disrupting debate. What debate? Show me a regular home Winger who has had an issue with something, anything, that Ms Sturgeon has said or done in the recent past. You can’t because there isn’t anyone.

    Its all very odd. Maybe she is perfect and she really has got some sort of positive plan (i.e. rather than a wrecking plan) to achieve something. Anything.

    All I see is she seems o spend almost all of her time and energy thinking of ways to make life difficult for non-scots. Of course that is her right – but how about she actually deals with Scotland as it currently is – and tries to address some of those issues rather than just attention seeking elsewhere? I am beginning to wonder if the main problem here (a la Clegg) is that she had her medium term plan to be some overpaid blowhard in the EU (a la Les Kinnocks) so that she could pull in a few million over the next decade – and thats all looking a bit dodgy now?

  191. K1 says:

    ‘You have not responded to political points that I have raised’

    You haven’t ‘raised’ any political points, you’ve regurgitated what you have read in the papers. You quite literally write what the pundits write, you see through the lens of the ‘established’ media in the UK mainstream Davey boy.

    You have opinions Davey boy, that’s it. No one said anything about you not having those, but they are not ‘political points’, they are a mixture of your ‘assertions’ based on others’ opinions.

    I don’t have to get into a back and forth with other’s opinions Davey boy, you on the other hand shove yours down people’s throats and if they proffer a different ‘outlook’ you insult them and attack them personally with insults. That’s the level of your engagement with just about anyone on these threads.

    Tell you what why don’t you do some research yourself and go find every comment you have made and maybe just maybe you will see the pattern more objectively?

    Further. It’s not about your ‘style’ that I take issue with it’s the entire insulting and condescending ‘manner’ in which you choose to express those opinions and your capacity to ‘rationalise’ away your own insulting behaviour on the basis of what? That someone does it to you therefore you justify ‘your’ insults accordingly? So two wrong do make a right?

    No one has this issue that you have with Nicola Sturgeon Davey boy, it’s you who sets the tone of divisiveness on that matter, again you take up the ‘view’ of what the mainstream media is punting in this regard.

    We have had countless discussions on Wings about the merits and demerits of policies put forward by the SNP. There is discussion on the main thread right now on the back of SC ruling where people have differing ‘opinions’ about the best way forward. The insistence from you that all on Wings are somehow ‘blindly’ following the SNP/Nicola is just an assertion on your part Davey boy, one derived from a ‘tone’ set by the UK establishment. Also why ask a question and then provide ‘your’ own answer, don’t you see that this is not debating:

    ‘What debate? Show me a regular home Winger who has had an issue with something, anything, that Ms Sturgeon has said or done in the recent past. You can’t because there isn’t anyone.’

    That’s a question followed immediately by your own conclusion. You are not interested in debating Davey boy, you are merely insisting that your ‘take’ on this is ‘the’ take. You honestly do not seem to possess the capacity to see from the others’ perspective.

    Your next paragraph goes to the heart of the issue in terms of your expressing an ‘opinion’ not a political point:

    ‘Its all very odd. Maybe she is perfect and she really has got some sort of positive plan (i.e. rather than a wrecking plan) to achieve something. Anything.’

    She’s got a ‘positive’ plan to ensure that the people of Scotland have their voice heard and listened to and accommodated within the framework of the EU brexit. I do not recognise the divisive language you use to describe her ‘approach’ in terms of ‘wrecking’ to be anything other than the fevered theatrics of those who have bought into the spin that this is the ‘purpose’ or ‘function’ of our representatives in securing a deal that is suited to the polity that elected them.

    The last paragraph again is full of your opinions and fears. I don’t know Nicola Sturgeon and therefore I wouldn’t ever consider characterising in the manner that you have. I don’t know what she is doing with her time and what she thinks ‘all the time’ about anything.

    Ye see Davey I don’t think in the same terms as you and I certainly don’t have your fears about Nicola Sturgeon. She is not the ‘demon’ that your words infer, that she is somehow plotting to ‘wreck’ anything that you hold dear.

    You don’t live here, so let me assure you that most of what you probably have read about the SNP government is again through the lens of a very hostile press. The SNP are very successful in dealing with Scotland as it is. I think given 9/10 years in office rather speaks to that little ‘dig’ of yours which you can only have gleaned from a very bias press Davey boy.

    Again with the pejoratives: ‘…rather than just attention seeking elsewhere?’ In ‘your’ opinion’ Davey boy, which again is derived from pundits/commentators who characterise the SNP/Nicola in that childish way.

    Your last sentence I honestly don’t understand. Some cynical attempt to ‘paint’ them/Nicola as some cynical politico out for money and fame. So off the mark, it just doesn’t make any kind of rational sense Davey boy.

    So to conclude. That was another wee rant ye had again: Nicola bad, tic, attention seeking, tic, money grabbing (possibly), tic, get on wi ‘real’ job, tic.

    And you have ‘no’ ‘dog in the fight’.

    ‘All I see is she seems o spend almost all of her time and energy thinking of ways to make life difficult for non-scots.’

    Evidence?

  192. K1 says:

    Oh just to be clear, there are many Europeans and many other nationalities living in Scotland, there are many English people living in Scotland also, so I do not recognise your term ‘non-scots’ as meaningful in terms of discussions on the political issues surrounding the constitutional debate that takes place on Wings.

    All of the people living in Scotland are Scotland’s polity. An unfortunate implication from your term ‘non-scots’ could be taken to read that those who are not Scottish by birth are only who Ms Sturgeon seeks ‘ways to make life difficult’ for?

    I do hope you did not mean that Davey boy and will give you the benefit of the doubt on this occasion. For we do not distinguish between those who are born in Scotland and those who live and work in Scotland as somehow ‘non-scots’. Neither is that the ‘marker’ which defines the constitutional question. It’s not about those ‘who are not born in Scotland nor those who live in Scotland regardless of birth nation’ either, that is not the ‘distinction’ that our wish for self determination rests upon. It is not founded ‘against’ other ‘people’ or other ‘nationalities’.

    Which rather holes your ‘whole’ point if indeed your point is that Ms Sturgeon seeks to ‘make life difficult’, because her and our issue is with the Parliament at Westminster. Why would you bring ‘nationality’ into this Davey boy?

    Our self determination is centred around the democratic deficit inherent in this outdated and one sided Union, it has nothing to do with being ‘Scot’ or ‘non-Scot’. It’s do to with Scotland the Kingdom becoming independent from England the Kingdom. The fact that we are ‘termed’ Scots has absolutely nothing to with it. It isn’t blood and soil with us Davey boy. But I’d put a fiver on it, that it is for you.

    I await your ‘evidence’ that supports your ‘assertion’ that Nicola Sturgeon’s days and nights are spent in the manner you describe, you must provide ‘your’ definition of the term ‘non-scots’ and must also provide hard, factual evidence that this is indeed the case:

    ‘All I see is she seems o spend almost all of her time and energy thinking of ways to make life difficult for non-scots.’

  193. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible,
    first an apology, I do slip into the singular, and that is wrong, you appear to be as aghast at the events in England as the rest of us, well most of us anyway.

    You would be correct complaining if the SNP were trying to prevent England from leaving the EU, that would be undemocratic, but in truth the SNP are doing no such thing.

    In Westminster the SNP are trying to get the best deal for Scotland, all Scottish MP’s and all English, Welsh and Irish MP’s should be doing the same, keeping in mind the results of the referendum in their constituency and countries.

    In Holyrood, the parliament will vote according the the National will and in that it will be more democratic than Westminster given the electoral system , the Tories will want to rubber stamp anything T may says, the greens and the SNP will want to keep as much of a relationship with the EU as possible, and yes they can put what in reality they want that to be, but God knows what the lesser parties will want.

    And in this any political party are doing what they are designed to do, express the will of the electorate, the SNP as a party are pro European, all constituency’s voted to remain in our country. So the position and aim of the Scottish Government is clear. Protect Scotland in Europe, and if they fail then its legitimate to ask the electorate for a mandate to end the Union.

    As I have said before, classing the UK as a single atomised society of individuals results in a democratic “tyranny of the majority” in which an individual Nation or in the case of Wales or Northern Ireland rights are compromised.

    Again David, you and I do mean you, have a anglo-centric view, and that is normal, but it is not right.

    Scotland will have another Independence referendum, that is now a certainty, its only when is not certain.

    And a worrying thought for Westminster, and in this I can only speak for myself, if we should fail in that endeavour, in winning a majority, well yes Indy ref 3 will be the next goal.

    Again I can only speak for myself, I am a Scotsman and will never accept the union as the overlord of my Nation, it is an aberration that needs to be cast into history.

    And if it takes 10 years or 50 or a hundred to end it so be it but it will end.

  194. sensibledave says:

    OK K1

    … you have at least responded to my comments specifically and given your opinion, I thank you for that.

    Let me address the big issue first. You make points about my criticism and characterisations of Ms Sturgeon and sometimes the SNP. People often say it is nothing to so with me and repeatedly ask why I am on here. I invite you to go down a thread (of your choice) and where there is a reference to Ms May or Westminster – check out the other words that will inevitably accompany them.

    You will see why I, because I am usually the only Tory Southerner her on Wings, may wish to have an issue.

    Please take what write next as an apolitical (I.e. not party politics) statement from a Remain voter living in England (in a region comprising over 19 million voters who voted Remain by a majority of 55% to 45% i.e. London and the South East – an area that disproportionately contributes tax receipts to the “UK” coffers).

    Scotland recently had a referendum and voted to stay part of the UK. The UK recently had a referendum on whether it wanted to leave or Remain in the Eu. Remain, my choice, lost the vote.

    Against my wishes, the UK has voted to leave the EU. Do I do a Clegg/Faron/Sturgeon and put all of my effort into trying to overturn or obfuscate the clear democratic will of the peopople of the whole of the UK – or do I accept that it is going to happen and look to make the best of it? I choose the latter.

    Others, like MS Sturgeon, in my judgement, have another agenda. I believe that almost everything she now says and does on this subject is designed to make life as difficult as possible for the “UK” to get the best result from the negotiations. This is because she believes that is in her political best interests i.e. the interests of the SNP and the cause of Scottish Independence. I have a huge issue with that K1.

    Logically, I am arguing that she is trying to worsen the situation for UK (60 odd million people) because she believes it will be helpful to her political ambitions for Scotland.

    Whilst I think it appalling behavior in the context of the UK, I accept that she has every right to try and do whatever she wants. At the same time, I have every right to call it like I see it and criticise as I see fit.

    As part of Westminster (my only place of government), the SNP have got 50 odd MPs that take a full active part in proceedings. They are part of the opposition to the duly elected UK government. Again, the SNP can choose to operate at Westminster how it sees fit. They do not have the right to affect law making and/or UK decision making – just because they represent a particular part of the UK. No more, or less than anyone area, region or nation. It is the UK government has to carry a democratic mandate in the house to get its way. Just as it should be.

    At the moment, we have an avowed Remainer (Ms Sturgeon) demanding that Scotland be dealt with differently to everyone else – or she will do everything she can to make life as difficult as possible for everyone else. Again, however deplorable, she has that right. The rest of us have the right to judge her, her methods and tactics and her ridiculous assertions accordingly.

    I note that Ms Sturgeon has almost saintly status with SNP supporters. I don’t know of many other politicians that can command such respect from her own crowd – whilst she deliberately seeks to irritate, destructively, everyone else. I find it weird but it is what it is.

    As the UK (comprising over 60 odd million souls), attempts to resolve one of its most difficult challenges since the war, I would prefer that our politicians had the UK’s best interest at heart. Demonstrably, Ms Sturgeon does not. She cares only about Sottish Independence regardless of the affect she is having on the chances of getting a good Brexit deal. She is aiding the other side in the negotiations. Unforgivable (along with the likes of Clegg, Farron, Ken Clarke, etc). At least Ken Clarke accepts that his stance has nothing to do with the “Will of the People” because he thinks he knows better.

    I don’t want to get all high and mighty because I am too cynical for that – but democracy is precious. In the end Ms Sturgeon and the SNP is hell bent on frustrating the will of the people and I have every right to say what I think about that – and judge her accordingly.

  195. sensibledave says:

    Andrew

    You wrote: “Again I can only speak for myself, I am a Scotsman and will never accept the union as the overlord of my Nation, it is an aberration that needs to be cast into history.”

    I accept that is how you feel Andrew. However, there is nothing anyone in the UK, other than your fellow country folk can do to help you. You need to convince a majority, have a referendum, win it’ and leave the UK. The rest of us may be sad (or not) but that would be democracy and, genuinely, good luck to everyone.

    Implicit in your statement quoted above though, is an anti-democratic sentiment. Again implicitly, you are arguing that you should have what you want – and to hell with democracy. That never ends well.

  196. Andrew McLean says:

    David,

    If you read anything undemocratic then you are misreading both my intent and the argument. Again your reading of my final sentiments shows you just don’t accept Scotland as a Nation, but remember it was the same sentiment that your countrymen abhorred when it was said about about Ireland, India, America once all were extensions of Their Britannic Majesties,, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas, etc.

    Just a point, it is not undemocratic to say, yes everyone voted one way, but do you know what I disagree so will continue to argue against the perceived wisdom, if none did that we would not have progressed as a species.

    As for my “Country folk” Oh arr! 🙂

  197. K1 says:

    I can only state Davey boy that you are entitled to your opinion. It is just that though.

    There is no need therefore for you to be so aggrieved on a site whose whole ethos is centred around the cause of Scotland’s self determination. Paint it in any way you choose, by all means disagree but to indulge in such disagreeableness was a big part of the ‘point’ I was elaborating on.

    As I have said, I’m not going to argue the ‘opinion’ points because as Andrew has stated you and we all to a certain extent have come through the same anglocentric conditioning in that regard and most of us on Wings no longer view our ‘world’ through that lens. We in Scotland are choosing a different path, the SNP got to where they are because we voted for them Davey boy. So no point in you belligerently attacking them as somehow illegitimate in the Westminster context, because they are not. You weren’t saying that when we sent 40 odd Labour duds down to Westminster, whose interests were also those of Scotland’s polity.

    Simply I would imagine because as you are more or less saying your issue is with the SNP’s prime directive: Scotland’s independence. We get it that you disagree. But the point in asking why you come on to the number one site that supports an independent Scotland knowing full well that those who comment btl are its advocates is a valid one in that context?

    The people in Scotland sent those MP’s to Westminster so in effect you are criticising our choices and telling us we’re all slavishly ‘following’ some ‘one’/’party’ you don’t trust. Which again is just your opinion. What irks me Davey boy is that you personally attack others who obviously will disagree with you. Rather than acknowledging our differences you attempt weak personal insult because people get fed up being telt by others that they are ‘wrong’. Which is in essence what you do. And when they give you short shrift you shreik ‘you are doing it to me’. It’s a mystery what you actually ‘get’ from coming on here and in essence moaning/decrying our choices?

    It’s okay that you disagree Davey boy it isn’t okay for you to attack us cause you don’t like our choices. I don’t think there is much left to discuss, but don’t think for a moment that I think you are done with whatever it is you are doing on this site.

    I think Andrew covers all the other obvious arguments you make for your ‘angry’ position. Don’t know what to say to you Davey boy, ‘cept maybe just ‘get over it’. I don’t mean that in a horrible way, more like ‘shrug’ so what you don’t like us changing our political arrangements with England…but we are going to do it anyway.

  198. Thepnr says:

    @sensibledave

    K1 and Grousey now own you. Your balls have been cut off and are hung on the mantelpiece. What’s that you say? Abusive hahaha, truth is you cannae take it.

  199. sensibledave says:

    Thepnr 4.33

    Haha, thanks for that helpful intervention – you prove my point for me!

    Anyway, thanks to K1 and Andrew for a spirited discussion. Thanks also to Grousey for adding the light relief and reminding us to count our blessings that we are not as bitter, twisted and moany as he is.

    I’m not sure that we made any progress towards a meeting of minds but good nevertheless.

  200. K1 says:

    Here is where we ‘meet’ Davey boy.

    ‘I don’t want to get all high and mighty because I am too cynical for that – but democracy is precious. In the end Ms Sturgeon and the SNP is hell bent on frustrating the will of the people and I have every right to say what I think about that – and judge her accordingly.’

    I want to get honest and real because I’m not cynical about democracy for it is indeed precious. In the end Ms May and the Tories are hell bent on maintaining this Union with Scotland whereby the democratic deficit is played out in every general election that the United Kingdom ever has. Wherein the Kingdom of England/Wales outvotes, because of the sheer numbers of England’s polity, the Kingdom of Scotland’s clear and undeniable rejection of those Tories.

    England would still have gotten Blair’s Labour government without the votes from Scotland in ’97, it just so happened England wanted Labour and Labour triangulated, ditched it’s principles to make itself ‘tory lite’ enough for those in the south to vote for them at that time.

    We have been seeking self determination for Scotland decades (a century) before this referendum vote got you all worked up about Ms Sturgeon Davey boy. Our ‘will’ has been ‘frustrated’ for generations Davey boy. And we too have as much right to ‘do’ something about this as you feel you have about your ‘democratic’ grievances over the reaction of those who do not agree with your ‘response’ to the EU result.

    You are now ironically experiencing what Scotland has experienced for decades Davey boy.

    Devolution is the actual ‘acknowledgement’ of that democratic deficit by the ‘establishment’ Davey boy? They just don’t want us to have any more ‘power’ and subsequently ‘powers’ devolved are ultimately powers retained by Westminster.

    The SNP were not ‘meant’ to win a majority…ever in the newly set up ‘executive’. But the people in Scotland figured out how to work the voting system to ‘their’ advantage and put in place people who gave a fuck about how things were going in this United Kingdom, especially since the failed Blairism (tory lite), experiment was ‘seen through’ by swathes of our population here in Scotland.

    The EU referendum was a spill out into the public domain, of a fight the Tories have been having with themselves since ever Thatcher decided it was a good idea to become part of that trading bloc. And here we find ourselves.

    Our democratic deficit is ‘merely’ more starkly revealed by the EU referendum result Davey, it’s not ‘because’ of the referendum result. Nicola Sturgeon can no more walk away from her principles having achieved a Remain result in Scotland than Theresa May can walk away from being the Tory that she is? Nicola Sturgeon is doing what ‘we’ asked her to do: protect our interests.

    Your ‘democracy’ in England, you feel is challenged by another party who you do not recognise as ‘legitimate’ ‘law makers’ in your polity: ‘They do not have the right to affect law making and/or UK decision making – just because they represent a particular part of the UK’

    That’s exactly ‘our’ point Davy boy.

    You see and identify your polity as England and the parliament as a predominantly ‘England’ parliament. A true democracy does not and never did exist on these islands. The Tories have not represented the views of those living in Scotland for over 4 decades now and still ‘we’ have to accept England’s choice and be told as you have, that our representatives are not to interfere with ‘decision making’ just because they are ‘what’? The Kingdom/nation that shares with England the same exact status as England in forming the very United Kingdom that you yourself state we have no ‘right to affect law making and/or UK (United Kingdom) decision making’?

    We are signatories of the Treaties that formed the United Kingdom. We are a nation, not a region.

    As long as you deliberately ‘avoid’ that reality and it’s ‘meaning’ then of course what you say makes perfect sense…to you.

    You take care Davey boy, no more hissy fits ‘pretending’ you don’t ‘see’ what others are pointing out. 😉

  201. Grouse Beater says:

    Sententious Dave: “Pnr, you prove my point for me!

    A strange thing; Sententious Dave is forever claiming opponents make his point for him, but he never manages to achieve it himself.

  202. sensibledave says:

    Grousey

    ….. I see you keep sneaking back trying to get the last moan in Grousey!

  203. carjamtic says:

    Said,the man who ate the boiled ham raw…..

  204. Sensibledave says:

    … word!



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