The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


The member for The Vow

Posted on July 02, 2015 by

The Sunday Post’s lobby reporter James Millar noticed today that all the parties have submitted their nominations to sit on the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster.

scotaffairs

As has already been noted, the majority of the committee – seven from 11 – are MPs for English seats (list below). But one name in particular caught our attention.

Alert readers may feel that they’ve heard of Christopher Chope before. And they’d be quite right, because we told you about some interesting comments he made in the Commons back in November:

“The leader of the Conservative party has made two pledges on devolution. The first was made on 10 September, and that vow was made without the authority or agreement of Parliament. I highlighted that in Parliament, and it was also highlighted by Nicola Sturgeon in the yes campaign.

She argued that the vow was dependent on parliamentary approval, which could not be guaranteed – in one of her speeches she even referred to me as being a reason for that – and therefore nobody should be relying on it.

If what the Conservative leader said then was a vow, it certainly cannot be relied upon by the Scottish nationalists because they opposed it and ridiculed it at the time.” (Col.222)

In the light of every single proposed amendment to the Scotland Bill having been voted down by the Tories (and sometimes also by Labour), readers may feel that Mr Chope is an interesting and enlightening choice of representative.

.

—————————————————————-

MEMBERS OF THE SCOTTISH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

Pete Wishart (SNP, Perth and North Perthshire, chair)
Dave Anderson (Labour, Blaydon)
Kirsty Blackman (SNP, Aberdeen North)
Christopher Chope (Con, Christchurch)
Jim Cunningham (Lab, Coventry South)
Margaret Ferrier (SNP, Rutherglen, Hamilton West)
Stephen Hepburn (Lab, Jarrow)
Chris Law (SNP, Dundee West)
Dan Poulter (Con, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
John Stevenson (Con, Carlisle)
Maggie Throup (Con, Erewash)

Print Friendly

    2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 02 07 15 14:17

      The member for The Vow | Speymouth

    2. 02 07 15 20:50

      The member for The Vow | Politics Scotland | S...

    209 to “The member for The Vow”

    1. themadmurph says:

      It’ll be interesting to see which side the red tories side with on the committee!

    2. Muscleguy says:

      Why in the nominations paper are some male MPs designated as Mr but others not? Also the women have no titles. Poulter’s title as Doctor however is noted. It’s curious.

    3. Dougal Cochrane says:

      Of equal import is that the Tory government are being somewhat hypocritical putting Chope forward for this committee given Cameron’s arguments for EVEL.

    4. Murray McCallum says:

      But Murray Foote and the Daily Record won multiple Scottish journalism awards for this “meaningless waffle”.

      http://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2015/04/daily-records-the-vow-receives-top-prize/

    5. Luigi says:

      It’ll be interesting to see which side the red tories side with on the committee

      SNP strategists will already be working on ways of splitting the unionist majority. Play them at their own game: Divide and rule!

    6. galamcennalath says:

      For balance there should be an English Affairs Committee made up of six SNP and four English Unionist MPs.

      Is that a stupid suggestion? Well, put it another way, is it any more stupid and inappropriate than the proposed make up of the SAC?

    7. Muscleguy says:

      I also wonder how genuinely concerned with the genuine interests of Scotland these unionist MPs representing English seats are. I expect a lot of them are there because they have been instructed to be and will follow orders from Central Office. I further expect that Brownie points are on offer the more ridiculous and anti-democratic they are prepared to be.

    8. Greannach says:

      I wonder if a prescription of Erewash would fix you if you had a maggie throup.

    9. michaelc says:

      Just going through the list but already this character Chope stands out… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope

      Wow… he has had quite a career.

    10. JLT says:

      This in one sense, may leave us all sitting here feeling sickened and bewildered (as in why did folk vote ‘No’). There might even be a sense of helplessness.

      However, should things come to pass, this is all ammunition for a 2nd Referendum. We don’t want the Tories to give us any ‘rewards’ or ‘sweeties’. We want them to say ‘No’ to us all the time. A righteous retribution may come when a 2nd Scottish Referendum is thrown on the table while the EU Referendum is still in full swing.

      The reason for that timing is that Cameron and the Tories at that point, should have made their views pretty clear on where they stand on the EU issue. When Nicola steps into the ring with Referendum 2, then Cameron is going to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

      Not only will he be condemned by the Scots when he puts more ‘promises’ on the table, he will be turned upon by his own party and the English electorate.

      In Scotland, Cameron will be judged and condemned on every single broken promise, vow or lie that he put before our nation in 2014 (there you go, Rev …a new project …the ‘wee red book’ …a book highlighting all the broken promises when the time comes).

      In England, the Tory Party and the English electorate will scream at him if he is seen to be giving us ‘freebies’ once more. The Media will strongly condemn Cameron by stating that Scotland had its ‘chance’ in 2014. This time, the argument should be for England.

      This means that Cameron cannot win. He cannot square his promises to Scotland while trying to please England.

      As an old Arabic saying goes …’the truth always rises up’.

    11. Marc says:

      Small correction to say Chris Law in is fact Dundee West. Mr Hosie our representative in the East.

    12. Macart says:

      More grist for the mill on its way I think.

      I suspect this committee may get some lively news coverage if it plays its cards right. 🙂

    13. Martin says:

      I’m glad the Labour folk are English. They may still hate the tories more than they hate the SNP, unlike their unemployed pals up here.

    14. michaelc says:

      Also, the tories are seriously trolling Scotland

      The bizarre thing is, that’s not having much success because the MSM and BBC are so compliant they never raise a cheep.

      Every Scottish media outlet should be screaming blue murder at the likes of this and the farcical EVEL

    15. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Better Together my arse! 😛

      The union is crumbling before our very eyes.

    16. heedtracker says:

      People are NOT stupid. Scotland wants devo-max but they kept that off their YES/NO ballot paper. YES might be winning Sept 18, in they jumped with THE VOW devo-max shyste and majority took them at their word.

      Since then, devo-max is obviously a giant red and blue tory unionist fraud on Scotland. So here we are, near complete UKOK unionist wipe out in their Scotland region May 7.

      Tick tock.

    17. We can’t have a majority of SNP Scottish MPs on the Scottish affairs committee coming to conclusions and taking decisions that unionists MPs don’t like now can we?

      So to ensure that this doesn’t happen, you make sure you have a majority on the Scottish affairs committee by packing it with labour and Tory MPs from English constituencies to ensure the right decisions are arrived at.

    18. msean says:

      Just wondering if any of these non Scots constituency MPs are Scots sitting for English seats,have any connection to Scotland so as to understand what they are talking about and who and what they are legislating for.

      What good does their constituents get from their MPs sitting on a committee on Scottish affairs when their job is to represent England based constituents? Scottish votes for Scottish laws please,would prefer independence actually.

    19. Famous15 says:

      They can pretty much do or say anything to do down Scotland since 5% of the poulation of Scotland give them permission to do so by voting “no” Now if that 5% knew then what they know now and voted “yes” wewould not now be insulted and marginalised.

      Reading my free copy of the 40pence ” I ” newspaper i see a Jenny Hjul writes the following in the Courier.

      “While Sturgeon,glorious in battle, charges ahead with her anti – business,anti middle class,tax raising agenda, Ruth Davidson,the young and refreshingly progressive leader of the Scottish Conservatives,is reinventing her party and making them quite suddenly electable”

      Does this Ms Hjul ,whoever she is, does she also write for Mills and Boone? I’ll stop there ;some of the imagery of Ms Hjul and MsDavidson does not belong in a family blog.

    20. Calgacus says:

      Thank you Rev for highlighting this Tory’s participation in the Scottish Affairs Committee.

      He seems to be an extreme right wing bastard.

      Looking forward to his metaphorical evisceration.

    21. gillie says:

      Under EVEL there is to be an English Only committee of MPs at Westminster.

    22. gillie says:

      Maggie Throup has NEVER visited Scotland

    23. galamcennalath says:

      Their parliament, their rules.

      We are not going to change it. The best we can hope for is, for as many Scots as possible to have their eyes opened to the true nature of the beast. We need a majority of Scots to reject WM totally.

    24. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      @Famous15

      In scotland the tories had their worst share of the vote in history in May so Ms Hjul is more than a little confused.

      For that matter the tories EVEL shambles and their position on Smith make it an excellent bet the tories will get hammered like never before at Holyrood next year.

      If Goldie couldn’t stop the rot then Davidson has no chance whatsoever either.

    25. gillie says:

      Maggie Throup is encouraging us all to sign this petition.

      http://www.maggiethroup.com/campaigns/english-votes-english-laws

      We should not disappoint her.

    26. DaveDee says:

      Famous15, re Jenny Hjul, I believe she is the wife of The Telegraph’s Scottish editor, Alan Cochrane.

      .

    27. DeilTakTheHindmaist says:

      Hey Rev, Chris Law’s actually MP for Dundee WEST.

      Only one of non-SNP MPs has any ostensible link to Scotland (at least according to Wikipedia) – Jim Cunningham was born in Coatbridge. They’re just seat warmers who will inevitably view every matter that passes before them on that committee through the prism of their constituents’ interests or the SNP containment directives of their parties’ leaderships, and not the interests of the people of Scotland.

      Will the media bring any attention to this? I very much fucking doubt it. Bealin barely covers it.

    28. Connor McEwen says:

      Nah, nah, he or the MSM widnae dae that, efff !?
      Here is a wee aside;
      http://captiongenerator.com/47381/TORY-PR-PLAN TO RULE BRITAIN
      http://captiongenerator.com/4558/Mundells-quandry

    29. Lesley-Anne says:

      I wonder … will Gordon “the bruising Clunking Fist” Brown be called before this committee to explain the current standing on his promise of “as near Federalism as possible” and how his promise of ensuring the VOW is delivered is going?

      Famous15 says:

      “While Sturgeon,glorious in battle, charges ahead with her anti – business,anti middle class,tax raising agenda, Ruth Davidson,the young and refreshingly progressive leader of the Scottish Conservatives,is reinventing her party and making them quite suddenly electable”

      Aye wee Ruthie is certainly doing that all right Famous. According to the National today SIX current Tory M.S.P.’s are standing down next May. Now THAT is what I call having control over your party. 😀

      I think that wee trundle about the countryside in her leetle tank has kind of gone to her head a wee bit! 😀

    30. Graham MacLure says:

      Before the referendum it was said the “Smart Money” was on “Scots Indie ” being around 2020.
      I have seen nothing since, including Rev. Stuart’s excellent post above, to disprove that.

    31. galamcennalath says:

      Unfair? Hypocrisy? Nicola laying it on the line….

      http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/jul/nicola-sturgeon-comments-tory-evel-proposals

    32. schrodingers cat says:

      DeilTakTheHindmaist says:
      Hey Rev, Chris Law’s actually MP for Dundee WEST.

      Big improvement on the Guardian who had Chris down as candidate for Dundee south….. until someone pointed out that dundee south is either in the middle of the tay or in Fife 🙂

    33. Luigi says:

      Graham MacLure says:
      2 July, 2015 at 2:26 pm

      Before the referendum it was said the “Smart Money” was on “Scots Indie ” being around 2020.
      I have seen nothing since, including Rev. Stuart’s excellent post above, to disprove that.

      My gut feeling is that 2020 is about right, but who knows. We must not underestimte this Tory government’s ability to really piss off the people of Scotland.

    34. schrodingers cat says:

      “Ruth Davidson,the young and refreshingly progressive leader of the Scottish Conservatives,is reinventing her party and making them quite suddenly electable”

      delusional havers, she got 6.1% of the list vote in 2011, thats about 12000 people in the entire glasgow region who voted tory, please, please, please use your 2nd vote and vote for Tommy Sheridan, Colin Fox… the fukcin mooneys for all i care, just get rid of her. How refreshingly progressive 🙂

    35. woosie says:

      Thanks michaelc

      looked up this Chope character. His list of previous makes him inappropriate for this committee to a comical degree. He’s clearly been put in their to ensure the committee achieves nothing, and if SNP members walk away from it in disgust, all we’ll hear on msm is Scotland’s non-compliance!

      I really think Cameron and his advisors believe that the referendum has gone forever, and we will have to take everything thrown at us for daring to ask for one in the first place.

    36. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath

      The lady couched that well and its a not so subtle hint as to what may be on the cards. 🙂

    37. Scotnat says:

      Chris law dundee west ????

    38. Morag McCourt says:

      Hi folks,
      Just a little thing I noticed..is John Stevenson on the committee or not? And if so what are his credentials? He goes missing from between the excerpt to the list of members and their constituences and being of a suspicious nature in this selective information age I thought I would point it out. There are 11 on the excerpt but 10 listed. Or am I missing something?

    39. Clootie says:

      I hope enough of the 55% who voted NO are paying close attention to the “Better Together” reality.

      I hope those who switched to NO on the basis of the VOW have now come to realise what a unionist promise is worth.

      England will always have 10X the number of MPs Scotland can send South. Given that ratioo NOTHING but full Independence will ever enable a fair society in Scotland and hope for future generations.

    40. Joemcg says:

      EVEL has apparently went too far in favour of England today.Even Murray and Carmichael are shocked.

    41. Ken500 says:

      Chope £136K on expenses, supports capital punishment, conscription? and EU exit.

      Major called them ‘Bastards’.

    42. @DeilTakTheHindmaist, Christopher Chope seems to have studied at St Andrews, so that makes for two MPs with Scottish connexions.

    43. Ken500 says:

      There is nothing more shocking than Carmichael and Murray.

      EVEL will never get through the Commons. Tories in disarray already. Wait till the EU Referendum.

    44. big jock says:

      My laugh of the day yesterday on Scotland 2014! Carmichael:” I will be 50 in a month…I know I don’t look it”. Christmas I thought he was at least 60! Must be all them porkies.

    45. big jock says:

      Spell check throws in Christmas..instead of Christ..feck off predictive text.

    46. Hamish100 says:

      Slightly ot.

      I thought in Tennis England doesn’t exist!!

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ward_(tennis)
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Murray

    47. RMF Brown says:

      Why are people giving Christopher Chope stick? You may not like his politics, but at least he was open and upfront about opposition to the vow. That I can respect, unlike the weasel words from the Daily Record.

    48. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 2 July, 2015 at 1:39 pm

      “Since then, devo-max is obviously a giant red and blue tory unionist fraud on Scotland.”

      That made me laugh, Heedtracker, for it engendered a wee mental picture – while I have seen many a Red Herring in my lifetime this VOW thing is perhaps the World’s very first Red, Blue and Yellow Herring.

    49. Nana Smith says:

      O/T

      https://commonspace.scot/articles/1786/nicola-sturgeon-westminster-s-great-disrespect-over-evel-makes-scottish-independence-more-likely

      I see our governor general has said we can not threaten a referendum each time we don’t get what we want.
      Anyone know what we got, as I’m fairly certain we got damn all.

    50. Stoker says:

      schrodingers cat wrote:
      “Ruth Davidson,the young and refreshingly progressive leader of the Scottish Conservatives,is reinventing her party and making them quite suddenly electable” – “delusional havers, she got 6.1% of the list vote in 2011, thats about 12000 people in the entire glasgow region who voted tory, please, please, please use your 2nd vote and vote for Tommy Sheridan, Colin Fox… the fukcin mooneys for all i care, just get rid of her. How refreshingly progressive”

      I’m not an SSP supporter but have always been a distant admirer of sorts. They have always struck me as being people who are prepared to put their money where their mouths are, people who turn their words into actions rather than just sit on their arses chewing the fat.

      I believe Glasgow could be one of the few places where the SSP could really do well and i for one would love to see SSP MSPs at Holyrood at the expense of ANY Unionists.

      It has always riled me that the SSP played a massive part in the run up to the referendum and where never permitted a seat at Wee Boaby Smiffs table but those liebore turncoats were.

      Genuine question for anyone with the knowledge to answer:
      If we all started working on and promoting a voting guide, would the following work for Glasgow:
      1st vote – SNP.
      2nd vote – SSP.

      What i’m trying to establish is would it be worth our while trying to create such a guide, town by town, area by area etc to oust as many of these Unionists as possible, or would the risks be far too great?

      I don’t fully and truly understand the facts & figures of this voting system simply because as soon as i attempt to try and work it out my brain stalls and i hit a sea of overpowering boredom.

      We definitely need another wee pocket book geared towards helping our cause for the forthcoming Scottish Parliament elections in 2016 and then the local authority elections in 2017.

    51. Dorothy Devine says:

      Well done to Andy Murray and James Ward.

      Commiserations to Englands lady footie team – must hurt when an own goal puts you out not that I can empathise with footie win or lose.

    52. That booger Chope is a walking advert for Scottish Independence, if his wiki page is to be believed.

      He’s six miles to the right of Rudolf Hess (who had a similarly slight ‘Scottish Connection’). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess#Flight_to_Scotland

    53. galamcennalath says:

      Nana Smith says:
      “I see our governor general has said we can not threaten a referendum each time we don’t get what we want.”

      I seem to remember a phrase to be used when talking tough ….

      “Hey Pal, that’s not a threat, that’s a promise!”

      Seriously though, they should be reminded when appropriate about the reality of the relationship between Scotland and rUK. We are still in a Union ONLY because they made sweeping constitutional offers which a majority accepted. When sufficient Scots agree that WM habitually no longer delivers what Scotland has democratically voted for, we will have Indyref2, and we will leave.

      Perhaps yes, that should be a promise!

    54. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Actually Mr Mundell is wrong about that, but that’s neither here nor there at the moment. All we need do is allow Westminster to continue acting like Westminster.

      They’re doing a grand job of dismantling the treaty all on their own. 😉

    55. Macca73 says:

      This all seems to be blowing up in front of the No voters faces. Any lie they bought into about a nation of equals or a nation beset on pulling and sharing is a complete lie!

      It’s staring to bite back though. Look at yesterday’s changing the defination of Child poverty (so you don’t have to tackle it Mr Osboure?) I think it’s only a matter of time before this starts to hit home about who these people really are. Since may Osbourne has called 3 emergancy budgets!! THREE! and then telling people the economy is turning a corner. FFA for Scotland would have seen them shafted into a black hole and they know it!

      That so called “cheer” … think on it more of a sigh of relief!

      There’s a storm coming and it’s not looking good because people are turning off the BBC in droves as it’s lost touch with it’s audience and looks like it may be facing a £150 Million black hole according to some reports out there.

      If they can’t push the lies on TV to the homes of people and they can’t mobilise an army of support …. then what?

      Like I said .. there’s a storm coming….

    56. Schrödinger's cat says:

      Council elections are even more complicated, mind numbingly so,

      Trying to get people to tactically vote is like herding cats, it won’t happen I’m afraid, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth it, eg, if15000 votes is the lower limit to elect an msp and solidarity and the ssp both get 25000 votes, then each will get 1 msp, where as if the ssp got 50000 votes then they would get 3 mp’s. These figures are not real, they just serve to highlight what happens when the list vote is spread over 2 or 3 parties, rather than one. Still, getting 1or 2 Indy supporting msp’s elected in Glasgow, potentially giving Ruthy her jotters would be a result. Looking at the result in May, the snp will wipe the board again in 2016 constituencies, if this is the case then they will win no list mp’s. Even if they get 50% of the list vote.
      I was one of the biggest critics of the greens and the ssp standing candidates in the ge, and fell foul of many of this blog for doing so. I argued it would split the yes campaign and for those who still doubt me, go speak to the snp members in mundells seat.
      But I may have many faults , but inconsistent is one of them which is why I am here now arguing for people to support these parties in the list vote, for the good of the Indy movement,
      Btw, replacing the unionists in holyrood with greens,ssp and solidarity msp’s is the only way we can stop the bbc biased representation that stu mentioned in his previous article

    57. Andrew Haddow says:

      “Every Scottish media outlet should be screaming blue murder at the likes of this and the farcical EVEL”

      There are no Scottish media.

    58. Petra says:

      Christopher Chope, Barrister, will have been conveniently placed on that Committee to intimidate and over-rule everyone.

      I don’t know much at all about the SNP members who have been selected other than Pete Wishart who wont let Chope walk all over him however I can’t understand why Joanna Cherry QC isn’t on that Committee with her knowledge of Scottish Law (and no doubt trained in English Law too). I’ve also noticed that Joanna Cherry isn’t on any Committee at all which I find strange.

      Four SNP members, three Tories and three Labour members. We know which way the Tories will vote for sure so maybe we should be doing our homework in relation to the Labour Party members, Dave Anderson, Jim Cunningham and Stephen Hepburn, because when it comes to a vote the decisions that they make will be crucial: the deciding factor.

      I also wonder what they’ll be discussing because the way I see it just about everything has been kicked into the long grass.

    59. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Just a little thing I noticed..is John Stevenson on the committee or not?”

      HE’S BEEN THERE THE WHOLE TIME.

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      @msean says: 2 July, 2015 at 1:46 pm:

      “Scottish votes for Scottish laws please, would prefer independence actually.”

      Now where have I heard the expression, “No taxation without representation”, before?

      Maybe it was from some wee insignificant colony or other that were also upset at the de facto parliament of England.

    61. Schrödinger's cat says:

      Stoker
      A town by town guide is un necessary since list votes are counted by region
      What would help though is if the ssp and solidarity could agree, a very long shot?? I know, to chose a region each, eg Glasgow or central, and not stand against each other. This would help maximize any tactical vote by the snp voters in the list ballot

    62. handclapping says:

      @Petra
      Then the job of the Committee is to be the HoC lawn mower

    63. Nana Smith says:

      Aye Macart. Give them enough rope.

      Here’s a wee gem from Alex Salmond on the bbc…

      Alex Salmond, in debate on defence: “far be it from me to defend the BBC”, says the Beeb has done so little in Scotland recently to merit it

    64. Schrödinger's cat says:

      Evel is miss named
      It is in fact English votes for British laws
      It could be open to a legal challenge in a court of human rights

      Cameron’s evel is an empty jacket and will offer nothing to England

    65. Schrödinger's cat says:

      The snp mp’s could always threaten the labour mp’s with a doing, it’s 4 against 3 now and it would be in keeping with Westminsters quaint traditions 🙂

    66. Petra says:

      @ Macca73 says at 4:34 pm ”It’s staring to bite back though. Look at yesterday’s changing the definition of Child poverty (so you don’t have to tackle it Mr Osboure?) I think it’s only a matter of time before this starts to hit home about who these people really are.”

      Did you hear David Cameron in the Commons yesterday? He had the brass neck to stand and tell everyone that child poverty levels have dropped to the lowest ever since the mid 80s (maybe he meant 1880s?).

      I wonder what the 7 million WORKING parents, who are having to trudge along feeling totally depressed and humiliated to beggar themselves at a food bank, make of that one?

      Child poverty is so bad now in the UK that I see he’s been reported to the United Nations. Last year he was reported to the UN for his treatment towards the disabled / Atos.

      Will any of this bother him? The man and the Party with no compassion or shame. No way he’ll say ‘we’re all in it together’ and therefore we’re all ‘better together’.

    67. Dan Huil says:

      Looks likely the English majority in the Committee for Scottish affairs will consistently vote against the wishes of the majority of the people of Scotland. For our own good, of course, because Westminster knows best.
      Truly sickening.

    68. Cag-does-thinking says:

      I was just thinking, a million disgruntled Scots = £150 million in licence fees. Hopefully some choice PQ staff may be amongst the thousand to go while we wave them goodbye…

      It seems direct action might work after all. Stick your propaganda where the sun don’t shine.

    69. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      After Lucas votes against Scotland Bill (and Harvie backled her), the Scottish Greens can kiss goodbye to their List vote from me. You reap what you tractor-type-thing.

    70. G. Campbell says:

      PendleHill @Pop_Pendleton Sep 16
      @mthroup If Scots vote No, the Barnett formula should be revised, and the West Lothian question sorted.

      Maggie Throup MP @mthroup
      @Pop_Pendleton so true but it’s vital we stay together
      11:05 AM – 17 Sep 2014

      https://twitter.com/mthroup/status/512180630617337856

    71. Glamaig says:

      WM are really taking the piss.

      I think they are trying to provoke the SNP into another referendum, and hoping they can win it which would kick the issue into the long grass for at least 20 years.

      Unfortunately we must put up with the pish they are piling on us until at least GE 2020.

      If the Tories get in again in 2020, that would be the time to go for it. We will have an additional wee boost from the changing demographics plus hopefully a boost from previous Labour No’s switching to Yes at the prospect of by that time 15 years of Tory rule.

      If however Labour pick up enough seats in England in 2020 to give the hung parliament situation we were expecting this year, that would be more complicated…

    72. J. Denham says:

      Dinnae fash! Gie them enough rope.

    73. Stoker says:

      @ Schrödinger’s cat (4.57pm).

      I see and agree with that thinking, re: SSP/Solidarity in Glasgow.
      Although i don’t know enough about their internal differences etc.

      Yes, i’m aware of the regional thing and should have made that clear but i guess what i’m trying to get at is a sort of guide formulated, region by region, by the wiser owls among us and then that message promoted by the activists within that area.

      I can only speak for what i understand of my own area that if anything other than a SNP x 2 vote had any chance of being promoted and succeeding it would be SNP/Greens but even that would be an extremely long shot with next to no chance.

      Not impossible but it would take a gargantuan effort from many people promoting and encouraging the same train of thought but at the end of the day, all things considered, probably far too risky.

    74. Macart says:

      @Nana

      He’s still the smartest operator out there. 🙂

      Our 56 and by extension WE are being deliberately goaded. They’re looking for rashness, an unthinking response or stunt. They want us outraged and reactionary. Stay calm, but remember everything for future use. The 56 are in good experienced hands and they’ll not be so easily rattled, neither should we.

      Let them do their job is my opinion. 😉

    75. chris kilby says:

      English Votes for Scottish Laws.

      (So no change there.)

    76. G4jeepers says:

      Didn’t the Queens speech make mention of respecting the Scottish people?

      Don’t see any of that coming our way 🙁

    77. heedtracker says:

      Pacific Quay creep show, speaks, hears, sees no EVEL-

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33351688

      Fair enough no one is going to tell them how to report shit that goes down with our imperial masters.

    78. Balaaargh says:

      Is there a limit to how many members a party can submit to the committee? How come a certain Islands MP didn’t put his name forward, the lack of a lib-dem plus 4 Southern English tories doesn’t make it look very democratic.

      Maybe the SNP should put people forward for the Welsh select committee (if such a thing exists)? 🙂

      On the Scotland Bill, I would have no problem with the 56 issuing a statement that what is being offered is not what the people of Scotland were duped into and they will not be bullied by the WM machine before walking out before the vote. A CONLABLIB whitewash should show the people of Scotland what WM thinks of them.

      Voting in favour would make the SNP become the Tories Scottish taxman and we’ll hear nothing but Labour accusations of ‘Tartan Tories’ ad infinitum for another generation.

    79. west wales says:

      Christopher Chope MP is about as right wing a Tory as you’ll find. He opposes the minimum wage and once in a parliamentary debate referred to House of Commons catering staff as ‘servants’.

      His sole connection to Scotland would seem to be the fact that he is a graduate of St. Andrew’s Uni.

    80. heedtracker says:

      Actually they do kind of mention EVEL up there at PQ, right at the end, as per but they’ll be working lots of BBC in Scotland overtime trying to play down/sell this debacle to their lucky viewers.

      “Labour’s Sir Gerald Kaufman, the father of the house, said the title of the motion, English votes for English laws, “sounds racist”.
      He added: “This government is undermining the whole basis of British democracy, right through from when the Magna Carta was signed.”

    81. crazycat says:

      @ Stoker

      Attempts at “tactical voting” in a proportional system are very, very risky. There is a huge discussion about it at present on Scot goes POP, and if the aim is to increase the number of pro-independence MSPs, this is not the way to do it.

      It might, by pure fluke, work under very particular circumstances, but these cannot be known in advance and even a slightly different result, either in the constituencies or the list, from what was predicted will backfire. There’s a real risk of extra unionist representatives.

      In any case, replacing an SNP MSP by a Green/SSP/Solidarity one does not increase the pro-independence group; that requires replacing one with two or more. To achieve that would require convincing maybe tens of thousands of people to pledge to vote a particular way – and for them to actually do so on the day.

      Obviously people who are principally Green etc supporters should vote for them; it’s their only chance. But SNP supporters are taking a huge (in my opinion far too huge – and I’m saying that as a non-member of any party, who has in the past voted Green or SSP more than once, so I’m not being tribal, just saying that the method suggested will not produce the result desired by those who propose it) risk if they split their vote. It may not be clear how to split it either, since that also depends on what everyone else does.

      The people whose change of vote really would lead to a different outcome, of course, are those who voted for unionist parties in 2011. Convincing them would be far more productive than re-arranging the votes of those already on the same side.

    82. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      RIC solidarity march for Greece in Glasgow 10 minutes ago:

      http://www.scottcreighton.co.uk/GE2015/RIC-Greece-Solid-March.jpg

    83. Proud Cybernat says:

      Chope does have Scottish blood coursing through his veins. This was received after a bloof transfusion he received during a Scotland v England game at Hampden back int he 70s. A minor fracas broke out in The Hampden Bar and said Chope ended up with a bust snib, hence aforesaid blood transfuison. Scotland skelped our southern cousins nothing each.

    84. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I see the tactical voting subject is raising its head again.

      I previously typed that ALL SNP supporters should vote SNP in both polls for Holyrood next year, lest we let someone else in on the list vote by mistake.

      However, as someone pointed out above, if the SNP win a(n almost) total wipeout in the constituency vote, they may not win any regional seats.

      I don’t believe any voting decisions should be made 11 months before the election. We have to wait and see what the final polls say, immediately before the election.

      If the SNP are polling 60+% in the constituency vote, then it may be worthwhile thinking about where you gonna place your ‘X’ in the regional vote. Ashcroft may be of help here, if he carries out constituency polls in the weeks leading up to the election.

      To be honest, if a constituency poll in Dundee West was showing 60+% for the SNP, I could be tempted to give my regional vote to, for example, Alan Grogan (if he were standing), coz I was impressed with his input to the referendum debate.

      But… really, it’s far too early to speculate.

    85. Robert Peffers says:

      @Glamaig says: 2 July, 2015 at 5:31 pm:

      ” … We will have an additional wee boost from the changing demographics.”

      Oh! for heaven’s sake give up your ageist pish.

      First of all, “The demographic”, applies to much more than the simple factor of age. You make the daft assumption the older persons who voted NO were all native Scots. They are not.

      There are several factors that make up the full demographics of voter patterns. Those well known areas that voted NO are also those where English pensioners have flocked into after selling off expensive English town/city properties and bought bigger and better Scottish rural properties to retire to.

      There are also those from England who had existing holiday homes in Scotland and who made a killing selling off their English homes and moved to Scotland to their holiday home upon retirement. Not only for the cheaper properties but the free prescriptions, free home care for the elderly and other Scottish Government provided benefits.

      Factor into those demographic the well known fact that for many centuries younger Scots have emigrated all over the World to get work. Remember too the big problem in most rural areas where many Englanders have retired to where younger Scots have been priced out of houses to either rent or buy where they were born and brought up and you just may realise those areas that voted NO are subject to much more than just Scottish OAPs voting NO in abject fear but from the complementary factor of younger displaced Scots due to the English immigrants.

    86. Petra says:

      I see it’s being reported in the Daily Record that four of the new SNP MPs are now employing close family members …. ”cushy taxpayer-funded jobs following in the footsteps of Angus Robertson and Angus MacNeil who both employ their wives”.

      If true I must say I’m not too impressed about this.

    87. StevieMcB says:

      OT Glasgow supports Greece Livelink
      http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/GlasgowWithGreece

    88. Stoker says:

      crazycat wrote @ 6.29pm:
      “The people whose change of vote really would lead to a different outcome, of course, are those who voted for unionist parties in 2011. Convincing them would be far more productive than re-arranging the votes of those already on the same side.”

      And that is THE most factual certainty i’ve read on this subject.
      (excuse the capitals, don’t know how to emphasise in bold)

      Cheers, crazycat, perfectly put!

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 2 July, 2015 at 5:49 pm:

      “The 56 are in good experienced hands and they’ll not be so easily rattled, neither should we.

      Let them do their job is my opinion.”

      Good post, good opinion and good advice, Macart.

      I’ve been watching the live Westminster Parliament on-line link, Macart, and I notice that the older hands, like Alex Salmond, Pete Wishart and Stuart Hosie are taking a more robust line just now. While the newer hands are, at least for the moment, sticking to their maiden speeches and just presenting a quiet, respectable front. Mind you there have been a couple of notable, and also mainly female, exceptions to that rule.

      I have been much impressed at the quality of the 56. They seem even better than I already knew them to be.

    90. Dan Huil says:

      OT. I presume SNP MPs will be voting against any RAF bombing in Syria should war-monger Cameron put it to the vote?

    91. Ken500 says:

      Chope wanted to abolish the minimum wage. Claimed £136,000 a year in expenses, including repairing a sette for £800. Against Equal marriage. Took through the Poll Tax legislation for Thatcher. Instigated by non elected Rothschild. Supports Capital Punshment and Conscription. Wanted a debate on Hillsborough postponed to debate MP’s pay. It’s a wonder anyone voted for him.

      BBC only need Channel 1 and 2 and a News/Parliamentary Channel. It is just repeats. Most support for the BBC is long gone.

    92. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Nana Smith.

      As a Dundonian, I was proud of Chris Law’s maiden speech.

      So, this is in honour of him (featuring Citizen Smart)…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AimKUHX2TtM

    93. Mealer says:

      Nana Smith 6.40
      Thanks for the link.Dundee Law.Scottish hero.

    94. Stoker says:

      Exclusive – Gordon Brown spotted in Arizona.
      https://archive.is/x6lNO

    95. IvMoz says:

      O/T

      No representation on QT tonight but a very unionist line-up:

      Douglas Murray, Shappi Khorsandi, Jeremy Corbyn, Anne McElvoy, Jeremy Hunt.

      I presume EVEL will be discussed but without a Scottish MP!

    96. sanz1820 says:

      Who’s on the English Affairs Committee, Stu?

    97. Joemcg says:

      I hear it’s back to being called Henman Hill by the commentators during the Nadal match.

    98. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There is a fair amount of pish still being talked on here about who did and did not vote YES and lots of unsupported assumptions.

      At the referendum, although Argyll and Bute voted NO (with an impossible 97% take up on the postal vote), this was largely due to the area of by far the highest population in it (ie Lomond and Helensburgh with the Trident base and which has no traditional connection with A&B ) voting hugely NO while historic Argyll and Bute voted largely YES.

      Oban and Lorn followed by Dunoon and Cowal were very strong YES yet these are the areas of the highest English immigration and I couldn’t count the number of English people who came into our YES centre to take stickers and flags and express their support.

      Has it occurred to anybody here that this suggestion that we lost because of English votes has been very deliberately promoted to encourage division, an anti English bias in the SNP, which can then be used against us to drive English votes away from the SNP – and some of us have swallowed the bait?

    99. Nana Smith says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon Great video, I’ve saved that one in my indy memories file.

      @ Mealer

      Each time I listen to a maiden speech from our mps I feel ever so proud, and know we made the right choices. Never thought a few years ago I’d be sitting here on a summer’s eve watching parliament tv.

      @Stoker

      Well that made me lol right enough.

    100. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Petra at 7pm

      I can see absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t. It is traditional practice. Did the Daily Record do an examination of the family connections of Labour or Tory?

      It was explained to me by a very hard-working MSP who employed his wife that that was the only person he could hire who would work round the clock with him.

    101. Dan Huil says:

      @sanz1820 7.24pm

      Five hundred odd [tee hee] MPs.

    102. Dorothy Devine says:

      With such deliberate offence being dished out by the unionists of Westminster just how long will it be before some of the Labour party of Scotland come to the conclusion that they are on the wrong side?

      That they are being denigrated along with the folk of Scotland?

      Or are they too thick to realise?

    103. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nadal is out – some magnificent play by the gorgeous Dustin Brown.

      Henman Hill it is – was it Murray Mound last year and the year before ,not to mention the year before?

    104. Dr Ew says:

      Well, Mr Chope may be a git, but at least he was upfront about his contempt for the Vow.

      I think we’re all with him on that, at least.

    105. Paula Rose says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill – in one.

    106. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      “… quiet, respectable front. Mind you there have been a couple of notable, and also mainly female, exceptions to that rule.”

      20 seconds robust response from Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh ….

      http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/4dea457f-d9ed-439c-a173-bd6bd817eb8a?in=16:18:50&out=16:20:00

    107. Paula Rose says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill : 7:37 – I’ve always thought job-share and/or partners would be a good way of re-thinking political representation. Certainly there is no reason to disparage an elected person for working as a team with their partner.

    108. John from Fife says:

      English votes for Scottish laws

    109. James Westland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill – Very good points there. I live in Mull which has a large number of English born people living in it. A very large number of them supported Yes. I was surprised by the numbers in fact. It was very encouraging. Pity about the ultimate result.

    110. Dr Jim says:

      We don’t even have Independence yet and here we go again with the SSP or the Green this or the Radical that

      There are folk who live in leafy suburbs who always voted Tory before but voted Yes and SNP amazing isn’t it
      There are also many comfortable Labour voters who did the same

      These same voters at the mere sniff of SSP or any of the aforementioned Parties will switch back to Tory and Labour in a heartbeat and I for one wouldn’t blame them

      Independence is the primary goal and that is only achievable by the Professionals (SNP) everything else is distracting mud

      This constant attempt to fracture support is something I find rather strange and have to wonder at such motives
      I hear people talk about effective opposition, well who in these Parties could supply that given that the SNP team at Holyrood could outdo most of what’s in the House of Commons

      In Holyrood at the moment you have opposition from different parties
      So who is there, well Probably about Two Tories are OK maybe one Lib Dem, Allyson what’s her name the Green Lady, she’s clever, Labour and I’m not even trying to be funny, Nout

      Only one I’d ever consider voting for if I weren’t already a SNP member might be the Green Lady certainly not the Green man I’d rather vote for myself before that guy and that would be a waste of a vote coz I’m not smart enough

      I’m afraid the days of Comrades Brothers and Sisters politics is long gone thank the sweet lord
      Shouting and fist pumping won’t do it for the youngsters this time round
      Modern Politics is about sales and what do you want to buy
      Tony Blair started all that Pizzaz except he had no substance
      and unfortunately was an abject liar shown up later by Gordon Brown who could only manage the liar part

      I would just urge folk thinking about changing horses to do it when it makes sense
      That is in no way telling anyone who to vote for or against that’s a matter for them but to merely remember
      It’s not an electric company Uswitch others Switch off

    111. Mealer says:

      Dave McEwan Hill 7.30
      I read quite extensively on the net and I don’t think there are many folk making a song and dance about how English people voted.Very few,in fact.I have no doubt there are those who would like us to embark on a witch hunt and they’re not supporters of independence.Fortunately very few of us are falling for it.

    112. Sinky says:

      Outrageous that in the very week that Scotland Bill is discussed there is no SNP representative on Question Time.

      On MPs employing family members I am sure that the Daily Record failed to mention that mega expenses Ian Murray MP previously employed his partner as a part time secretary.

    113. Rock says:

      Proud Cybernat,

      “After Lucas votes against Scotland Bill (and Harvie backled her), the Scottish Greens can kiss goodbye to their List vote from me. You reap what you tractor-type-thing.”

      SNP supporters desiring independence must give both their votes to the SNP in 2016 and must not be taken in by “pro-independence” tactical voting.

      The Greens and Socialists would have their own agendas to follow if elected and they would almost certainly be anti SNP.

      Don’t take any chances, that can wait until after independence.

    114. Stoker says:

      @ Nana Smith (7.32pm).
      Glad that helped to cheer you up.
      😉

    115. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Regarding “Henman Hill” – going on about this minor distraction will not help us towards Independence.

      For myself, this hill was never mentioned until Tim Henman came along, so, I for one have no problem with “Henman Hill”. I have even heard Andy Murray refer to it as such.

      I always thought “Murray Mound” was a case of the BBC trying too-hard not to upset the Sweaties, by being condescending to us.

      Any way, “Henman Hill” might be a constant reminder of the fact, good player though he was, Tim Henman never won Wimbledon. We may have to wait a year or two, but, it is an absolute certainty that, as the first British player to win Wimbledon’s Men’s Singles since pre-WWII, and the first British player to win an Olympic gold medal, there will, eventually, be a statue of Andy Murray at the All England Club.

      In 100-years’ time, visitors to Wimbledon might wonder who the Henman who had a hill named after him was – but, by looking at the statue, they will certainly know who Andy Murray was.

    116. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “There are folk who live in leafy suburbs who always voted Tory before but voted Yes”

      How do you know that and how many in total?

      The “Tory types” who have been voting SNP voted No in the “SNP heartlands”

      In contrast “RIC” types voted Yes in the former “Labour heartlands”.

      We will only ever win if we convince almost all ex Labour voters to vote Yes. After all, the SNP is what the people thought Labour was.

      The 70% elderly British nationalists and 90% “Tory type” middle classes are a lost cause.

    117. ian says:

      Here in Canada our MP’s send out quarterly newsletter updates on what they have been doing in Parliament.It is covered free by Canada Post.
      Does this happen in Scotland and if so what a great way to reach the non tech savvy voters about the way our country is being treated

    118. Rock says:

      O/T

      Given that the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low, Carmichael will almost certainly win the case.

      That will be 60,000 pounds of independence supporters’ cash down the lawyers’ drain, while people in Scotland are starving.

      But even if my prediction comes true, we will have no choice but to continue playing the game according to the unionists’ rules.

      We are a pathetic people. Even Ghandi or Mandela couldn’t have done much for us.

      While their people were ready to sacrifice everything, we are meekly hoping that our 56 MPs outnumbered 10 to 1 at Westminster, and 7 to 4 on the Scottish affairs committee, will bring us independence without any suffering.

      If we want to achieve anything, we will need to get out onto the streets, starting with a massive poll tax type boycott of the Pravda GB tax.

    119. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      I usually enjoy your posts but now you are talking rubbish.

      There are folk who live in leafy suburbs who always voted Tory before but voted Yes and SNP amazing isn’t it
      There are also many comfortable Labour voters who did the same

      The great majority of Tory voters voted NO and 30% of former Labour voters voted YES. It was these former Labour voters that got the vote for Independence so close.

      These same voters at the mere sniff of SSP or any of the aforementioned Parties will switch back to Tory and Labour in a heartbeat and I for one wouldn’t blame them

      Idiotic assessment, it is much more likely IMV that those remaining Labour supporters who just can’t stand the thought of ever voting SNP (it’s ingrained) will switch to either the Greens or the SSP.

      It is far more likely that the traditional Tory vote who did vote YES would be disgusted and move back to Tory.

      This constant attempt to fracture support is something I find rather strange and have to wonder at such motives

      It appears to me that you are attempting to “fracture support”. I thought all of this was about winning Independence?

      If so, then you know that the SNP have the support of both the Green party and the SSP and others.

      They have been many comments on many articles in recent months about this subject. EVERYONE would love to see a WIPEOUT of the Unionists in Holyrood.

      Well your best chance of doing that is for those that say SNP in the constituency vote put their mark against another Independence supporting party for the second.

      This is simply a fact.

    120. Mealer says:

      Rock 9.31
      Speak for yourself.

    121. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We must vote SNP for FPTP and also the list if we want to guarantee a healthy majority. The method was designed to allow no party (ie the SNP)a majority but it was the massive and unprecedented list vote which actually gave us it

      The fact that we may well win nearly all the FPTP seats (and there is a while to go on this however) and this would be pointless if we lose a lot of list seats due to overconfidence or some silly affection for those nice Greens or SSP. This is the end game we are in. No time for sentiment. If we do very well FPTP the result is that only a really massive list vote – and I mean really massive – gets us significant list winners.

      I would be happier if the Greens or SSP or Solidarity won a couple of FPTP seats than hoovered up substantial votes on the list which could have the unintended consequence of allowing Labour and Tory to survive on the list. We must vote SNP on the list and let dissatisfied Labour, Lib Dem or Tory voters vote Green on the list

    122. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dr Jim (8.41) –

      FFS, are we back to this again?

      For someone who feels entitled to lecture others on ‘professionalism’, you have real knack for gratuitous rudeness, the main effect of which is to enrage fellow independence supporters.

      I’m pretty sure I pointed this out to you just a few weeks ago, but perhaps I didn’t make myself clear – the cause of Scottish independence is not your personal property, nor is it the SNP’s. You do, of course, have every right to express your monomaniacal philosophy in whatever terms you think will be most persuasive, but please be aware that mocking ‘fringe’ parties is not likely to impress many.

      Did the SNP arrive on this planet complete with 113,000 members, a healthy bank balance, and many hundreds of years’ worth of political experience? (If you’re not sure, ask Robert Peffers.) All political parties have to start somewhere, and to see my own party, as well as the Greens, being repeatedly smeared and belittled by you is truly sickening.

      If you want to enhance your own diplomatic nous and communication skills, please make an effort to develop a sense of when it’s best to keep your cliche-ridden opinions to yourself.

    123. MrObycyek says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Traditional practice? What like claiming expenses? Like a bunch of old farts traipsing through Parliament in their robes like something out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang? Hopefully traditions such as this will be stamped out in future. What are the chances that of all the people who applied for the job, assuming of course that anyone else was even given the opportunity to apply in the first place, that the best candidate just happened to be the MSP’s wife? Will wonders never cease! The best candidate for the job should get the job. I highly doubt all these family members that are employed by politicians just happened to be the most suitable candidates. It stinks and it just feeds into the perception that a lot of politicians are just in it for themselves and feathering their own nests.

    124. heedtracker says:

      https://archive.is/uZOqN

      Rancid The Graun going WTF at tory boys EVEL in first 100 days.

      Its all the fault of the horrid blue tories and the SNP, y’see. Any twerp could be a teamGB politics leader writer.

      So rancid The Graun says its not even necessary and beastly blue tory boys say

      “after last autumn’s Scottish referendum, when David Cameron responded to the result not by celebrating a newly endorsed union strengthened by the no vote, but by reinventing Scotland as a problem for the English. He could not have played more effectively into the SNP narrative of betrayal that was in full flood again in the Commons on Thursday”

      “Narrative of betrayal” rancid Graun speak for, stuff what’s happening.

      or,

      Sept 19, UKOK Prime Minister should have been “celebrating a newly endorsed union strengthened by the no vote”

      Is that really what happened Rancid? Project Fear rage at Scotland, endless UKOK attack propaganda BBC style, ferocious monstering of Salmond et al, its the end of the civilised world as we know it if you vote yes, you’re all nazi bums on the take, there’s no oil left etc etc, their last minute.com desperate lying shyste, vote NO for federal teamGB and devo-max, and a few hundred thousand went with along with it all, is all an-

      “endorsement of strengthened union”, rancid The Graun. Its over and they all know it.

    125. Rock says:

      Mealer,

      “Speak for yourself.”

      You didn’t think I was giving your view did you?

    126. Dr Jim says:

      @Rock
      I am one of those elderly types although a SNP member BUT where I live was never SNP it was Lib Dem Tory and Labour in that order
      and if the good folk of Bishopbriggs Bearsden and Milngavie ever sniffed anything close to the old Labour Style of the SSP or Radical folk that I outlined they would be back to where they were in a flash

      As I’ve said, personally I have not much feelings towards the Greens one way or another in areas like this they’re considered a bit of an afterthought if a thought at all

      I firmly believe Independence can only be achieved through the most powerful party and without question that is the SNP

      Now I’ve been accused before of wanting a one party state as if some kind of dictatorship that’s an incorrect assumption, but of course it should be pointed out that all states are effectively one party if any single one has the most representatives ( Conservatives ) they can and are doing exactly what they want to do and nothing can stop them

      The difference I would assert is that why risk the one party that is doing the will of the people ( for the most part ) for others who as yet would without doubt lack the current experience needed to take the country where it needs to go

      Nicola Sturgeon is, at this moment the most influential and talked about politician in Britain and soon to be arguably in Europe, Scotland has never had such a high profile figure in it’s history
      There is a plan, of that I have no doubt, I do not believe there is anything Cameron can come up with that hasn’t been anticipated by the SNP team both here in Holyrood or in Westminster

      All our MPs in Westminster know they are only there for a short time, they will be the last SNP MPs representing Scotland and they are taking the shit thrown at them daily so we don’t have to
      But so that Scotland will see, and that’s why every night on Facebook, Twitter and other sites the mood of our people is getting stronger

      My expressions on this matter of other parties are not borne out of distaste in any way merely conservative (small c ) caution “Slowly Slowly Catchee Monkey”

    127. Rock says:

      Thepnr,

      “the SNP have the support of both the Green party and the SSP and others.”

      No, they do not.

      Both the Greens and the SSP stood candidates against the SNP at the recent Westminster election.

      Fortunately, due to the massive SNP landslide, they didn’t do much damage.

      Except that the 1300 Green votes almost certainly enabled the Tory viceroy of Scotland to hold onto his seat by 900 votes.

    128. Croompenstein says:

      @Rock –

      We are a pathetic people. Even Ghandi or Mandela couldn’t have done much for us

      I just buried my wee Nana today, 97 years old, she never set foot in a free and sovereign Scotland was she pathetic? I was never more proud when she voted yes in the referendum did that make her pathetic? Most of us have just been awakened in the past 2 years in the lead up to the ref, remember that when the campaign started it was 70-30 no but the country is having the scales taken from our eyes, we are not pathetic we have been manipulated massively for over 300 years.

    129. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      2 July, 2015 at 10:06 pm
      Thepnr

      Gentlemen take it outside please. lol

    130. Fred says:

      Must agree with Rick’s last sentence!

      Chris Law, first time I’ve ever heard the guy, a superb performance, I don’t think he’ll take any shite. 🙂

    131. Thepnr says:

      @Rock

      Still trolling I see, on the question of Independence they do support the SNP. Are you suggesting that every pro-indy party must agree with the SNP manifesto LOL?

      If so your a dick.

    132. Kirsty says:

      I haven’t posted here for a while because others were saying just what I would, only far better, so I didn’t see the point but this is a really interesting conversation so I wanted to add my tuppence.

      First, regarding the list vote; I find it a bit confusing. Some say it could help oust the unionists and then some, like Scot Goes Pop, say it could help them get in. I’m at a bit of a loss now whether to vote SNP for both or split my vote. If anyone had some data on how it would work, then I’d be really grateful to see it.

      Second, people have been bringing up age and nationality about the referendum vote. I know this is only an anecdote, but I work with an English guy who not only voted yes but is also 67 years old. On the other hand, I also work with a 65 year old Scotswoman who voted no because she “was using her head instead of her heart.” Interestingly, she said she doesn’t pay any attention to politics and “doesn’t bother with all that stuff”. I myself am half English and voted yes.

      All I’m trying to say is there’s a lot of work to be done informing people who aren’t particularly interested in politics. I think separating the Scottish electorate into boxes like “Old = No”, “English = No”, etc. isn’t helpful at all because it’s just not accurate. I think we need to win the arguments and get them across to everyone, equally. The demographics are important to the extent of letting us know where we could, perhaps, tailor our information to suit their circumstances and concerns but otherwise, I think it’s a fake division.

    133. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “All political parties have to start somewhere”

      Agreed.

      But the 2015 undemocratic Westminster election, where the Socialists and Greens had a zero chance of winning any seat, was most definitely not the time to start by standing candidates against the SNP.

      Tommy Sheridan had the pragmatism to endorse a vote for the SNP in 2015.

      But Patrick Harvey and Colin Fox acted dogmatically in my view.

      The SNP didn’t start with 113000 members, but that is the present reality that has to be taken into account.

      I am not against either party as such and am not suggesting how Socialist or Green supporters should vote.

      But my suggestion to SNP supporters whose top priority is independence is to give both constituency and list votes to the SNP in 2016 to make sure that there is a zero risk to an SNP majority.

      I have a suggestion for the SSP. Why don’t they raise their socialist profile by starting and leading a massive anti poll tax like campaign against the Pravda GB tax?

      I am sure SNP supporters in their masses would support such a campaign.

    134. Dr Jim says:

      Now at no time have I ever said anyone’s opinions are wrong
      in fact i have stated before that everyone is entitled to an opinion and the right to express it whatever it may be
      I am at no time ever telling or instructing people on how to vote
      Seems some folk think only their own opinions count more and others shut up
      Well if that is the approach of some and shouting at folk the method of delivery you may question a winning attitude that is certainly not and as for belittling anyone are we not discussing politicians or those who would be

      Are we now suggesting permission is sought or required in certain cases of certain people to opine on certain subjects would that not be the job of Stuart Campbell

      I never lecture I wouldn’t have the temerity to think myself that clever and one thing I would never consider is to attempt to bully anyone and as for my diplomatic skills I have never claimed to posses any nor do I go around swearing at folk in an attempt to prove how good my diplomatic skills are the two don’t seem to me to go together (Foul Language, Diplomacy ) no can’t see it myself
      What’s next

    135. Petra says:

      @ IvMoz says at 7:16 pm ”No representation on QT tonight but a very unionist line-up: Douglas Murray, Shappi Khorsandi, Jeremy Corbyn, Anne McElvoy, Jeremy Hunt.”

      I wonder if that’s the Douglas Murray that’s an Associate Director of the Henry Jackson Society ….. Jim Murphys Club. Douglas Murray that advocates torture and extraordinary rendition.

      @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 7:30 pm ”There is a fair amount of pish still being talked on here about who did and did not vote YES and lots of unsupported assumptions .. Has it occurred to anybody here that this suggestion that we lost because of English votes has been very deliberately promoted to encourage division …”

      Dave it’s not unsupported assumptions at all. Research data highlights that this IS the case and I don’t think that people like Gordon MacIntyre – Kemp (Business for Scotland) one of the greatest advocates for Independence would say that either to be divisive. We should be using the data in a constructive manner to help us to firstly identify and then target key areas for canvassing and so on even if it means traveling to far flung areas which I, for one, am willing to do.

      @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 7:37 pm ”I can see absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t (employ family members). It is traditional practice. Did the Daily Record do an examination of the family connections of Labour or Tory?”

      Well I don’t know if they have published anything at all about Labour (doubtful) or the Tories Dave, all I do know is that it’s considered to be nepotistic and frowned upon as they are paid from the public purse to the tune of over £3.3 million (loads of complaints about this on the Internet). Following the expense scandal in 2008 the Committee on Standards in Public Life recommended a ban on MPs employing relatives and they were warned to cut it out.

      Within the EU the Brits are (were?) the only MEPs employing relatives due to using a legal loophole known as ‘the British Clause’ much to the chagrin of the European Parliament who banned it in 2009. The Brits threatened legal action and were then given 5 years up until 2014 to put a stop to it.

      @ Nana smith says at 9:43 pm

      http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/10966-mp-begins-legal-battle-to-keep-his-job

      ‘’Judges Lady Paton and Lord Eassie continued the hearing until next Wednesday to look into “administrative issues” before deciding when the case should go ahead.’’

      If and when the Case does go ahead, I wonder if we’ll find out who was aware of / actually saw the contents of the memo prior to it being leaked? The Government has said no but you would think that this kind of information, especially in relation to Carmichael, would be fundamental to presenting the case.

      A video of Andrew Neil actually being a ‘bit’ more civil towards an SNP MP.

      Tommy Sheppard on 56 SNP MPs in HoC (29 May 15)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2hA_18Tyq8

    136. Nana Smith says:

      Croompenstein I’m so sorry XX

    137. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “if the good folk of Bishopbriggs Bearsden and Milngavie ever sniffed anything close to the old Labour Style of the SSP or Radical folk that I outlined they would be back to where they were in a flash”

      The good folk there voted NO in the referendum.

      Like the “Tory like” No voters in the “SNP heartlands”, they were happy to vote for the SNP for political representation.

      But they are highly unlikely to ever vote for Yes, not in the necessary numbers anyway.

      They are a lost cause as far as independence is concerned. They are doing well under the union and do not want to take any risks.

      Apart from that, I fully agree that SNP supporters whose top priority is independence must give both their votes to the SNP in 2016.

    138. Proud Cybernat says:

      There seems to be a bit of angst among some posters today about how much the rUK is crapping all over Scotland, voting down every SNP amendment, humiliating us by showing us just how ineffectual the SNP 56 are aainst the 500+ of WM etc, etc.

      Great! Because, accept it or not, that really has to be done.

      You see, the way I look at it is like this – when we had 50 SLAB MPs sitting at WM in a large block of UK Labour MPs we could never actually get to see just how little influence Scottish MPs have in the WM system simpky because the SLAB MP voices were rarely, if ever, heard. Even when Labour was in Govt. we never ever really got to see just how little a voice our Scottish Labour MPs had at WM – they had virtually no influence whatsoever in the UK party but reality of that position was never obvious, being ‘lost’ or ‘masked’ in the wider UK Labour voice.

      Now Scotland’s lack of influence at WM is VERY obvious. And that is the difference and that is why it is important that people see what is going on in WM and understand it. Scotland has NEVER had any real influence in that place, we just didn’t realise it when we were voting for UK establishment parties.

      Now we can see the stark reality of our position in this ‘union’. But it took us voting for a non-establishment party for us to finally see it.

      And when more and more Labour voters understand this reality, they will surely realise that there is only one way that they can really make their vote count and that is a vote for indy.

      Small moves but we have to go through the pain.

    139. crazycat says:

      @ Thepnr

      EVERYONE would love to see a WIPEOUT of the Unionists in Holyrood.

      Well your best chance of doing that is for those that say SNP in the constituency vote put their mark against another Independence supporting party for the second.

      This is simply a fact.

      No, it isn’t. It really isn’t. To work, that tactic would require a large percentage of SNP supporters (tens of thousands per region) to all correctly identify the smaller party best placed to win a seat and then all carry out their pledge to vote that way. The example of the Pouters and their wheel suggests that this is very, very unlikely to happen in sufficient numbers, and there is a serious risk of none of the pro-independence parties getting enough to win – so unionists would.

      Even then, just replacing a current SNP list MSP with a Green/SSP one would do nothing to reduce the number of unionists; you need at least one additional pro-independence MSP. That makes the task for those attempting to direct tactical voting even more difficult – can the Greens get two, or would one Green and one SSP be more achievable, and how many people do you need to persuade to split their vote in each way….all at risk of falling apart if the constituencies don’t go the predicted way.

      There are some circumstances where this might work – but you cannot identify them in advance, so in practice the tactic does not work except by fluke. It is far from “simple”.

      Last time I disagreed with you about this, your response was to describe me as an SNP tribalist (I forget your exact words), so for the record, I am not, never have been, and 99.9% certainly never will be, a member of the SNP. 2011 was the first time I gave them my list vote; prior to that I had voted Green or SSP, and the one time that was successful (2007), it came at the expense of the SNP, not of unionists.

      Of course that was at a time of Lib/Lab coalition, and the SNP were nowhere near their current popularity, so I am not claiming that exactly the same consequences would follow now –

      But it remains the case that the only guaranteed way of reducing the number of unionist MSPs is to erode their support, rather than risking letting them through the middle by trying to juggle Rumsfeldesque known and unknown unknowns.

      For those who are primarily supporters of the other parties, of course they should vote for them, and good for them if they are elected, but to try to persuade first choice SNP supporters to indulge in guessing games is playing with fire.

      In the constituencies, however, tactical voting could work, if there were anywhere where the SNP is not the main contender. That was the problem with the idea of a Yes Alliance, or whatever name it should have; there was no seat where the Greens or the SSP had a realistic chance of victory where the SNP did not have a better chance (as was demonstrated in those places where voters had alternative ways of defeating the incumbents in May).

      As ever, it’s a matter of priorities; my priority now is independence, after which I might very well stop voting SNP if they did not conduct themselves to my liking. But I’m not going to risk it yet.

      (It’s taken me so long to write and revise this that someone else is likely to have replied first, or everyone will have gone to bed. Apologies for the length – it always takes longer to try to refute something than it does to assert it in the first place.)

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dr Jim (10.01) –

      I have argued, strongly, with SSP colleagues, that we should not, under any circumstances, ever refer to the SNP as ‘Tartan Tories’.

      ‘Tory’ has become such a loaded, toxic term that it should only ever be levelled against those guilty of the most heinous offences against society. That’s why SLab deserved the ‘Red Tory’ tag.

      Your contempt for fellow Scots who happen to have a different outlook from you is tempting me to re-evaluate when the use of the term may, indeed, be appropriate. The SSP managed to bite its lip throughout the entire indyref campaign over some of the SNP’s less than honourable tactics. (Would you like me to lay some of them out right here, in detail, for Wings readers to evaluate?)

      Yes, we kept our heads down and didn’t make a stushie about this, that or t’other because it was all for the greater good. You and your buddies weren’t complaining about our help when the streetwork was going on, were you? I didn’t hear many SNP people complaining about our presence, because the SSP and Greens were vital in dispelling the ‘myth’ that the whole independence campaign was only ever about the SNP and what it wanted.

      But now, when you’re on the big stage, we’re just an embarrassment that you’d rather shift out of sight?

      That’s the truth, isn’t it ‘Dr Jim’? The whole indyref campaign was only ever about what you – and those like you – wanted. Other indy-supporting parties were just bunches of useful idiots, to be patronised, tolerated, and discarded as soon as possible.

      Rock expresses similar views to you – his crusade against the Green Party gets tiresome at times, but at least he manages to make his points without being quite so insulting. You might learn something from him, even if you’re beyond taking anything else new or, dare I say it, ‘radical’ on-board from anywhere else.

    141. Rock says:

      Thepnr,

      “Still trolling I see, on the question of Independence they do support the SNP.”

      Only on their terms as Patrick Harvey made very clear during the referendum campaign.

      Their anti-SNP credentials are on the record. Their MSPs would be very much anti-SNP.

      Patrick Harvey has just had the Green MP at Westminster vote against the SNP, and then critiscised “SNP types”.

      For pro-independence solidarity, it would have made sense for her to vote against the unionists.

      But the South British Green party is unionist anyway.

      “Are you suggesting that every pro-indy party must agree with the SNP manifesto LOL?”

      No I am not, and I have never suggested that in any post.

      “Troll” is the accusation of choice of those who have lost the argument.

    142. Paula Rose says:

      Got a good idea – no-one should be allowed to comment on Wings unless they did so before the first of January 2013, there that should do it.

    143. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      MrObycyek at 9.53

      I just gave a good reason why a spouse is very often the best person for the job. Did you actually read my post?

    144. Schrödinger's cat says:

      Dr jim
      No one is suggesting replacing the snp or nicola
      The idea is to remove the unionists so that the bbc can no longer gerrymander interviews as per stus last article

      Re the dissing of the english and the over 65s. These two groups make up a majority of the activists in my constituency, not keyboard warriors but those who leaflet and canvass. I for one am grateful to both. I find the polls on this puzzeling but make no mistake, when you doorstep someone who starts accusing you of being anti english and you reply…..but im from nottingham..kinda proves that the msm is lying. They have no comeback.

      Re the ssp and greens. You gotta help me guys. The leadership and the holyrood candidates need to make an announcement regarding scots independence, same as tommy did. Im reduced to reviewing the candidate list for the greens and googling their names to see if they support indy or not. Social media is full of comments that the ssp and greens are closet unionists, rubbish i know, but it needs to be put to bed once and for all.
      Getting andy wightman elected in edinburgh is worth the risk of tactical voting alone.
      The land of scotland belongs to us, lets take it back
      Oh, and by the way, the poor in scotland do now have lawyers. Us. We just crowd funded the shetlanders against carmichael

    145. Rock says:

      Croompenstein,

      “I just buried my wee Nana today, 97 years old, she never set foot in a free and sovereign Scotland was she pathetic?”

      I am very sorry to hear about your Nana.

      But my point is in general.

      The Indian and South African masses despite being poor, uneducated and manipulated gave up everything to become independent.

      They faced the military might of the British Empire. But they still managed to get their freedom long before us.

      But after more than three hundred years of colonial rule, we only woke up 2 years ago?

      Then we are pathetic, compared to the Indians, South Africans and most of the rest of the world.

      Well at least 50% of us still are.

      That is why they didn’t want to have the Lionheart spirit and mocked us into submission.

    146. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Petra at 10.32

      “Research data highlights that this IS the case”

      I have seen no reliable “research data” only unsupported assertions based on anecdotal evidence from a couple of small unrepresentative samples.

      Probably mischief.

      It is entirely possible that the English in Scotland voted in majority NO. It is as entirely possible that the Scots did so as well as the 400,000 plus NO majority is about the size of the whole English community in Scotland and I know lots of them voted YES
      So I stick by my description “pish”

    147. Thepnr says:

      @crazycat

      I very much appreciate your well thought out response. Right now is too early to decide the most effective way of ridding us of Unionist MSP’s.

      Maybe a subject for a later post, at least the comments on the article are warming up. Debate is good!

    148. Schrödinger's cat says:

      Indy ref2 is closer than many think.
      Its time to unite, not divide

    149. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      The anti English theme and anti middle class theme just keeps on rolling on and it is a quite divisive – and in my view completely wrong in my view.

      The vast majority of my English friends voted Yes. They live here and love the country and its people and a lot of them are married to Scots

      In my opinion it will far easier to convert many fair minded English Scots especially those from the North of England than convert lots of diehard Unioinst Scots who will never, ever support Scottish Independence.

      On the anti-middle class theme. Lots of Middle class people voted Yes and I canvassed and leafleted in some quite rich suburbs. I was surprised by the numbers who actively supported Independence and the SNP. That is why the SNP won seats right across the country in May.

      So in conclusion, please stop making rash judgements on groups who you think support independence and who do not. There are supporters across all ages, all ethnicities and all classes.

      All we need to do is convince a few more of them from all groups to change to support Indy over the coming years.

      We have all come a long way in the last few years and if we keep on going the way we have been then Independence will happen.

      Onwards and Upwards.

      p.s. BBC lose £150M in licence fees. “Curse of No” strikes again…

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-33363225

      Happy Days – we are winning…

    150. Craig Murray says:

      Does this mean we can annex Carlisle? Then Mundell could have a deputy.

    151. Petra says:

      @ ian says at 9:14 pm

      ”Here in Canada our MP’s send out quarterly newsletter updates on what they have been doing in Parliament. It is covered free by Canada Post. Does this happen in Scotland and if so what a great way to reach the non tech savvy voters about the way our country is being treated.”

      Ian thanks very much for visiting the site and taking an interest in what’s happening in Scotland.

      I really like the idea of newsletter updates but no that doesn’t happen here (someone may correct me!), however we can check the SNP site as there are constant SNP updates posted there. Nicola Sturgeon also occasionally sends video messages to our e-mail addresses. Most of our information is gleaned from sites such as this and through watching televised Parliamentary debate in the Commons (Westminster).

      Things might change now as we have 56 MPs at Westminster covering most constituencies in Scotland. Our greatest problem as you have probably realised is in trying to get valid information across to no voters so your suggestion makes GREAT sense. On the other hand this would be very costly and I don’t know if the SNP / our MPs could afford to do this.

      I’ve visited Canada on a number of occasions Ian as I have relatives living in Toronto and Vancouver Island. It’s a fabulous country and you’re extremely fortunate in not being ruled by Westminster. Best wishes and keep in touch.

    152. crazycat says:

      @ Thepnr

      Thanks.

      I was going to say that it’s never too soon to start trying to convince people to stop voting Labour – but I’m not sure I know anyone who still does! I certainly don’t know any Tories or LibDems (apart from one in England; a lost cause – I have tried).

    153. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “Rock expresses similar views to you – his crusade against the Green Party gets tiresome at times, but at least he manages to make his points without being quite so insulting.”

      If anything I have said about the Scottish Greens and Patrick Harvey is not true, please point it out.

      I am only “insulting” to hypocrites who resort to the “troll” accusation as soon as they have lost the argument.

      During the referendum campaign, the likes of Patrick Harvey and Jim Sillars fell too quickly into the unionists’ anti-SNP trap.

      Colin Fox didn’t get much coverage so I don’t know how he answered the anti-SNP questions.

      But Tommy Sheridan was brilliant at making a passionate plea for independence while not falling into the unionists’ anti-SNP trap.

      Your pro-independence view is as valuable as mine, if not more.

      But my firm view is that only an SNP majority unhindered by the need for other parties’ pro-independence support is the fastest and surest way forward at the moment.

      Even if unionists get elected on the list vote, a massive % of the vote for the SNP will have to be taken seriously, whereas a pro-independence vote divided among several parties will be exploited to the full by the unionists.

      Politically speaking, the unionists if elected will actually be a major asset to the independence cause.

      Dugdale, Baillie, Gray, Davidson, Rennie etc have unwittingly done more for the independence cause than Patrick Harvey and his fellow Green MSP whom hardly anyone knows could ever do.

    154. crazycat says:

      @ Petra

      Re newsletters – the MSP for the constituency next to mine (which makes up most of the Westminster seat I was shifted into in 2005 by boundary changes) does produce one.

      I’m not sure how often it comes out, or how it is distributed. It makes my (ex)editor’s fingers itch, so if my new MP did one, I’d hope it was a bit tidier. His predecessor (Lab) sent out a weekly “e-brief”, but of course that only reached people who had signed up to it and had internet access.

      If I see him, I’ll suggest it.

    155. Paula Rose says:

      Not sure that these long gaps called Rock really work as intended – occasionally two or three words actually make sense. Most do not –

      the unionists if elected will actually be a major asset to the independence cause

      See what I mean?

    156. Balaaargh says:

      @Petra 7PM

      “I see it’s being reported in the Daily Record that four of the new SNP MPs are now employing close family members”

      Given the massive intrusion on to day-to-day family life that some politicians endure, I wouldn’t be surprised those partners/spouses/family members were already doing the same duties in an unpaid role prior to their election.

      For every Christine Hamilton, there’s a Peter Murrell.

    157. MrObycyek says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Yes I read your post. This should have been self evident from the details I subsequently mentioned in my previous comment in regards to your post. You did indeed give a reason as to why a spouse may be the best person for the job and I am not rejecting that opinion, however, I find it hard to believe that anyone other than his wife could have done the job efficiently long hours or not. Indeed one must wonder about all those poor people who work long hard hours get by in their jobs without a spouse working alongside them. My guess would be that they manage to get on just fine.

      I have a simple question: Did the MSP you mentioned advertise the vacancy? If he did and after the application process, which must surely have had more than one applicant, the wife was the best candidate well then fair enough.

    158. Petra says:

      Croompenstein says at 10:19 pm ”I just buried my wee Nana today.”

      So sorry to hear that you’ve lost your grandmother Croompenstein. Take care x

    159. Thepnr says:

      Hello Rock

      Mark 2 Rock is a quite a bit different from Mark 1 Rock.

      It maybe that he is softening and is less hateful to those that do not share his his views.

      Though I doubt it.

    160. Schrödinger's cat says:

      Crazy cat
      Incorrect
      Presently the snp have one list msp in mid scotland and fife
      After roger mullins fantastic win in kirkaldy and cowdenbeath, who would now put money on slab winning the holyrood cowden beath constituency in 2016?
      If this happens, which it will, then with 45% of the list vote, as per the 2011 result, the snp will win no list msps in mid scotland and fife. I repeat, none, nada, fuck all. The list vote is a pr vote and as you correctly point out, every snp voter swiching and voting for 1 party, eg solidarity or the greens would pay dividens but is unlikly to happen. I agree with this statement. But even if the pro indy voters split their vote between ssp, solidarity or sgrs, and fail to win any lists seats. How are we worse off..? Presently we are looking at 7labcondem llist msps in this region, the greens were 823 votes short of displacing wullie rennie in 2011. Your arithmatic doesnt make sense
      The only sensible comment against tactical voting in holyrood, further up the thread, was should something happen between now and may 2016, to damage the popularity of the snp, then voting snp in both ballots should e our priority
      That and waiting closer to the time before deciding
      Ian brotherhood
      The ssp need to make a statement, so do their candidates and suppporters.
      I need a link to some statement to counter act the media disinformation being spread in the social media. Without which, i cannot defend you or the critisism leveled against you or your party. Either put up or shut up. I cannot defend or promote you(or the sgp)?if you dontbgive me something to work with then going forward it will be 1. Snp 2 solidarity
      This is your nemesis, time to choose mon ami

    161. Still Positive. says:

      @ Petra 11.26

      My local SNP has put out a local newsletter for about 20+ years and I used to proof-read them. They obviously got someone better at spelling and I was not needed!

      Today I got their latest one from my new MP for West Dunbartonshire, Martin Docherty.

      I proof-read it and it was delivered by my neighbour across the road.

    162. Thepnr says:

      @MrObycyek

      Why start trouble in an empty house? I’m self employed, my wife does my accounts. No big deal.

    163. Petra says:

      @ crazycat says at 11:37 pm ”Re newsletters – the MSP for the constituency next to mine (which makes up most of the Westminster seat I was shifted into in 2005 by boundary changes) does produce one.

      I’m not sure how often it comes out, or how it is distributed. It makes my (ex) editor’s fingers itch, so if my new MP did one, I’d hope it was a bit tidier. His predecessor (Lab) sent out a weekly “e-brief”, but of course that only reached people who had signed up to it and had internet access. If I see him, I’ll suggest it.”

      Thanks for that info crazycat. Now that I’ve read Ians post I just wish that newsletters / updates could be sent out to everyone on a regular basis …. hoping to reach no voters. Not only an update but leaflets covering other relevant, enlightening information.

    164. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Nana Smith.

      The ‘Spirit of Independence’ travels around Scotland are listed at the YouTube channel.

      http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV4R507DPh65Kp70J44X5Kg

      If you browse there, you’ll find interviews that Chris Law carried out on his expedition, including people like Humza Yousaf, Tommy Sheridan, Craig Murray, Blair Jenkins, Annabelle Ewing, Brian Cox, Dennis Canavan, and many other ‘grass roots’ campaigners.

      Here’s Episode 2 from the series, where Sheena Wellington & Citizen Smart sing ‘Caledonia’:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4To2I5C_A

    165. Paula Rose says:

      Oi you lot – when I get narky the rest of you are supposed to have a group hug, now get on with it.

    166. X_Sticks says:

      @Croompenstein

      Sincerest sympathies to you and your family. So sorry your Nana didn’t get to see her Scotland free. I hope you will.

    167. Schrödinger's cat says:

      The pnr and paula hun, i wouldnt worry about the rock troll
      I find stranger insects in my cornflakes box every morning 🙂

    168. Petra says:

      @ Still Positive says at 12:09 am ”My local SNP has put out a local newsletter for about 20+ years and I used to proof-read them. They obviously got someone better at spelling and I was not needed! Today I got their latest one from my new MP for West Dunbartonshire, Martin Docherty. I proof-read it and it was delivered by my neighbour across the road.”

      Thanks Still Positive. Interesting to find out what’s going on in other areas. I’m waiting for mine with baited breath, lol.

    169. MrObycyek says:

      @Thepnr

      You have answered your own question there. You are self employed. You can employ who you want and do not answer to anyone, apart from the taxman!

      I would like to say sorry if I’m coming across as someone trying to pick a fight. That is not my intention. I wish no ill will towards anyone on here. Perhaps my frustration with how things are going on in Westminster is bubbling to the surface and I am channeling it into the wrong places. Sorry.

    170. Paula Rose says:

      OMG Schrödinger’s cat I’ve just had a really strange sensation!

    171. Paula Rose says:

      Now bitty O/T – is anyone going to Edinburgh via Brechin for the wavy flag thingies this Saturday? It’s just that I’m going to be on rocky grounds as regards using Nicola’s chopper.

    172. John Moss says:

      Sooooo, what about Scots Votes for Scots Matters then?

      Don’t see anybody talking about that. E.V.E.L implies S.V.S.M. right?

      Stop bitching and get on the offensive.

      Meantime, can I interest you in this…?

      https://www.facebook.com/ScottishUDI

      …would bring a swift end to 10 more years of Tory rule and see David Cameron as the last Prime Minsiter of the U.K n’et-cepas?

      Ciao chums.

    173. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Paula Rose.

      If you can be standing on the north side of Seagate, outside Seagate Bus Station, on Saturday morning, at 11.45, Pete will shoehorn you into his car, for the Embra expedition.

    174. Paula Rose says:

      Can I sit on the roof rack waving flags like last time?

    175. Petra says:

      Daily Record ‘On Tuesday night in Westminster, a rare and perhaps unprecedented event occurred: the SNP and the Labour Party joined forces on an issue of constitutional politics. Both parties wanted to beef up the Bill’s proposals on welfare to allow Scotland to design a different benefits system if so desired. When those bitter enemies are agreed on something, it surely merits close attention.

      What happened next was a sickening slap in the face for Scotland and democracy. Tory MPs trooped through the lobby to thwart the proposals – despite 58 of Scotland’s 59 MPs giving them their backing. There was no consultation. No conversation. No listening to reason.’

      How come the Daily Record hasn’t mentioned that ALL amendments have been voted down including our Scottish Parliament being made permanent? And don’t they have some nerve stating that ”What happened next was a sickening slap in the face for Scotland and democracy.” Clegg and Chrichton gave Scotland a sickening slap on the face when they conned many Scots for months in the lead up to the Referendum and then produced the never to be forgotten ‘VOW’ that’s left us all shackled to a dictatorship and as a result hundreds of thousands of Scottish children living a miserable existence. How can they live with themselves?

      ‘Since the Prime Minister stepped out of No10 in the early hours of September 19 last year, his attitude to Scotland has changed dramatically. He is no longer the man whose “heart would break” if Scotland voted for independence. He is now the PM who spent the general election questioning the legitimacy of Scots MPs. There are now serious doubts about his commitment to Scotland’s part in the UK.’

      You couldn’t make it up. Camerons attitude to Scotland has changed dramatically?!! FGS he and his Tory cronies have always detested us and been intent on robbing us all blind. The Daily Record has been co-conspirators with them in duping many people into voting NO and are now hoping that we’ll all suffer from some kind of amnesia.

      It’s actually difficult now trying to work out who conned who, when. The Tories conned Brown and Darling into doing their dirty work for them. The Union, Daily Record and MSM conned the Scots. The Tories then conned Labour and the Daily Record is now trying to con us, again. Have I missed anything (conning) out?

      David Cameron to Scottish people: It’s not a trial separation, it’s a painful divorce

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-neVSgeEe0w

      Cassetteboy – Cameron’s Conference Rap

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YBumQHPAeU

      Alex Salmond Vs David Cameron Rap Battle

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqUWF2ZIwg

    176. Paula Rose says:

      Gosh eek I’m going to be next to that very important rock – there is a wee re-construction with some original features on the very top of that rock that is worth a visit.

    177. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Paula Rose.

      Pete has risk-assessed your premise and, after last time, (the washing rope incident), he has declined allowing you to occupy the roof rack.

      However, if your nerves are up to it, you can hang on to the yacht rack on his boot lid. And you can fly the flags, if you have three hands.

      See you Saturday.

      8=)

    178. Paula Rose says:

      (but it was only a pair of kickers)

    179. Paula Rose says:

      (can I sit on Petethecamera’s lap like last time if there are too many trucks?)

    180. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Yir pushin’ it now, Paula Rose…

    181. ian says:

      Hi Petra
      The point of the newsletters is that it can combat the difficulty of reaching some of the older folk.
      Also I was born in Scotland and have been a believer in Independence for over 50 years

    182. Petra says:

      ian says at 7:57 am ”Hi Petra the point of the newsletters is that it can combat the difficulty of reaching some of the older folk. Also I was born in Scotland and have been a believer in Independence for over 50 years.”

      Well you’re right Ian many elderly people here still don’t use the Internet .. are more reliant on the newspapers and / or television. If you follow the posts you’ll see that broadcasting isn’t devolved to Scotland and that the only National daily newspaper supporting independence is The National which we didn’t have pre-referendum.

      Your post brought forth some interesting information. A couple of posters have mentioned receiving updates from their MP however I’ve not experienced that. Additionally I would imagine they only send them to supporters which is great in itself but we really need to get some information across to no voters to combat the lack of information, worst still the lies being told by the mainstream media. Maybe as we generate more money that will be something that we can think of doing in the future.

      I see that you’re a Scot who has relocated (or your family did) to Canada. I hope you and your family have faired well there Ian. For centuries now, at every generation, as much as half of my family members have emigrated to countries such as Canada, the US, New Zealand and Australia (and other countries). All of them seem to have left Scotland (the country they love) to make a better life for themselves and / or their families. At the moment I have more family members living abroad than living here and that’s a fair number. Every relative who’s moved abroad (this generation) has done exceptionally well for themselves (all very well educated here) and I just think that other than losing them, to some extent, personally they and others like them are a great loss to Scotland (30 / 40 thousand leave Scotland every year – in the main brain drain).

      I email my relatives in Canada but we don’t really discuss politics. My sister emigrated to Canada and she and I would get into more detailed discussion but she has now moved onto Australia. If you get the time let us know more about the situation where you are, for example the levels of child poverty, work opportunity and so on.

      Anyway Ian many thanks for contacting us, all my best wishes for the future and take care.

    183. Breeks says:

      The problem I have with SNP stoicism under duress, astutely ignoring provocations to insist on a premature referendum, and filing “everything” away for just the right moment in future, is that it fills me with the same grim foreboding as the way the SNP, and in fairness YES too, were much too complacent about the biased BBC and wider media coverage during the first referendum.

      We were all waiting for the big haymakers to start flying, but they just never did.

      I personally think it is a strategic error which establishes a baseline which greatly flatters the Unionists, but it’s our omission, and one which we are dangerously close to repeating.

      THIS is the time, right now, when the BBC should be getting its drubbing and exposed to the people of Scotland for the fraud it is. It’s conduct and bias must not remain an issue to be left for the run-in to another referendum.

      The media represents a clear and present danger to Scotland’s democratic self determination, and while it pains me to say it, the SNP so far seems impotent in trying to address the biggest issue of all.

    184. Mabel says:

      Like most folk here I was extremely annoyed by the news of an Engliish majority on this committee. Coming as it did together with the smack down of all the Scotland Bill amendments and just before the push to EVEL. What total disregard for Scotland is shown by that.

      What I’ve not come across yet – though been busy recently and may have missed it – is any talk of the Scottish Grand Committee being brought back. So far as I know it’s not been abolished, though there was talk of that after devolution and though it hasn’t sat in years could it be resurrected to fight this? Since it can only comprise Scottish MPs and it’s function was to scrutinize Scottish bills if it could be enacted again it might go some way to fight against this outnumbering and sidelining of our MPs.

    185. Fred says:

      @ Croomps, a sad time, she had a good run, pity the winning post eluded her. Best Wishes.

    186. Croompenstein says:

      @Nana @Petra @X-Sticks @Fred

      Thanks folks, she got a really good send off and she had a good life to celebrate but with reflection also comes sadness. Thanks for your kind words.

    187. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “Not sure that these long gaps called Rock really work as intended – occasionally two or three words actually make sense. Most do not –

      the unionists if elected will actually be a major asset to the independence cause

      See what I mean?”

      What you mean is you like Carmichael, you like being economical with the truth.

      What I wrote, at the end of an explanation why a strong SNP majority is essential:

      “Politically speaking, the unionists if elected will actually be a major asset to the independence cause.

      Dugdale, Baillie, Gray, Davidson, Rennie etc have unwittingly done more for the independence cause than Patrick Harvey and his fellow Green MSP whom hardly anyone knows could ever do.”

    188. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “(but it was only a pair of kickers)”

      Paula Rose,

      “(can I sit on Petethecamera’s lap like last time if there are too many trucks?)”

      Raising the quality of debate as always.

    189. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Och Rock, wind yir neck in, iye?

      Your attacks on a fellow Winger are becoming boring – and a tad sad.

    190. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “Och Rock, wind yir neck in, iye?

      Your attacks on a fellow Winger are becoming boring – and a tad sad.”

      I am only attacking hypocrisy.

      Stop being a total sycophant.

    191. Paula Rose says:

      Anyone else getting sick o the pants being churned out by a certain geological specimen?

    192. Fred says:

      Rock is entitled to his opinions, if they’re not to your taste don’t read them. Simples!

    193. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Fred.

      Rock is certainly entitled to his opinions, some of which make good reading.

      Unfortunately, she/he continues to go against Rev Stu’s posting rules by insulting contributors, rather than robustly contesting their opinions.

    194. Fred says:

      Brian, surely that’s a matter for Stu.

    195. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Nah Fred, surely posters should be able to abide by the rules, rather than our benign overlord having to slap wrists for rule-breaking?

      Perchance Rock is just pushing the boundaries, to see what he/she can get away with?

      My son was like that when he was three years old…

    196. Paula Rose says:

      Fred – Rock took against me a while back, as yet he/she has run away from all invitations to debate away from main threads in rooms on wings where we could have a debate.I’m sorry but I think Rock exists to disrupt our unity of purpose – or maybe not.

    197. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Or maybe eh…

    198. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “Fred – Rock took against me a while back, as yet he/she has run away from all invitations to debate away from main threads in rooms on wings where we could have a debate.”

      These are the sort of comments you make on “main threads”:

      “(but it was only a pair of kickers)”

      “(can I sit on Petethecamera’s lap like last time if there are too many trucks?)”

      It is clear that you have no intention of answering the question I have been asking you regarding the Greens standing candidates against the SNP in the recent Westminster election.

      As I said, I am only attacking hypocrisy.

      And pedantry.

      And sycophancy.

    199. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “I’m sorry but I think Rock exists to disrupt our unity of purpose”

      Where was “our unity of purpose” when Scottish Green leader Patrick Harvie advised the sole Green MP to vote against the SNP at Westminster?

      And attacked “SNP types”?

    200. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Rock, as I typed on another page, you have been SUSSED.

      You are a disruptive influence, so there, NYAH!

      No offence…

    201. majestic12 says:

      Hey, guys and gals. Not quite sure what’s going on here, being a newbie and all. As I see it Rock is succinct and to the point, giving opinions and challenging others to defend theirs. Is that not what sites like this are for? He can be robust, but not rude as far as I’ve read. Can we not just call a truce? And similarly Paula Rose has the right not to respond to questioning.

      There are others on this site whose comments are rude and insulting to others, and can often be construed as ad hominem attacks. Nobody, except I, has had the gumption to highlight this and on one occasion took the offender to task. Yet everyone just sits back and defers. I don’t see Rock in this category at all.

      Remember we are all on the same side, are we not?

    202. Rock says:

      majestic12,

      “As I see it Rock is succinct and to the point, giving opinions and challenging others to defend theirs. Is that not what sites like this are for? He can be robust, but not rude as far as I’ve read.”

      “There are others on this site whose comments are rude and insulting to others, and can often be construed as ad hominem attacks. Nobody, except I, has had the gumption to highlight this and on one occasion took the offender to task. Yet everyone just sits back and defers. I don’t see Rock in this category at all.”

      This website is the best example of free speech in the country. Probably the only site where opinion can be freely expressed.

      Unfortunately a group of sycophants and pedants, and quite possibly unionist agents, have been attempting to take it over.

      They patronise other posters and think they are superior to others.

      As soon as they lose the argument, they resort to the “troll” accusation.

      They cannot tolerate being challenged.

      I am glad that like me you too are not afraid to challenge the double standards of some posters.

    203. Rock says:

      Fred,

      “Rock is entitled to his opinions, if they’re not to your taste don’t read them. Simples!”

      Exactly!

    204. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “Unfortunately a group of sycophants and pedants, and quite possibly unionist agents, have been attempting to take it over.”

      You see, Majestic12, why some of us are suspecting Rock’s motive for contributing to this site.

      She/he seems to have a bee in his/her bonnet and continues to miscall other Wingers, even Ronnie Anderson, probably the most ACTIVE Winger, with whom I had the pleasure of manning the Wings stall at the ‘Hands Off Holyrood’ rally on Saturday, along with Paula Rose, who travelled down from Brechin.

      Rock was conspicuous by her/his absence.

      He/she seems unable to conduct a debate in a proper manner – she/he cannot stop himself attacking other Wingers personally – and that’s what’s pi$$in’ off a number of Wingers.

    205. Paula Rose says:

      Am I right in thinking that I’m being called an unionist agent? Well well well – must be my English accent.

    206. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I think, perchance, the 77th Brigade has become active here.

      “Against a background of 24-hour news, smartphones and social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, the force will attempt to control the narrative.”

      https://archive.is/RR8Wh

      Is that what’s happening to Wings? A start by attempting to turn Wingers against Wingers? We live in interesting times…

    207. Cherry says:

      @ BDTT
      I’m in total agreement and I think there are a couple more too.



    Comment - new users please read this page first for commenting rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use the live preview box. Include paragraph breaks or I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top