The long way around
My journey to Yes is probably a rather unconventional one. I’m from an establishment background: military family, English public school, Oxford. I’ve spent a lot of my life abroad and in England. My ancestors came from Hungary in the train of Saint Margaret of Scotland, who fled here from the Norman invasion and married Malcolm Canmore to become Queen Consort, way back.
When they weren’t involved in Scotland, my family were mercenary soldiers all over Europe, as were so many others. I tracked down a pair of boots in the Schottenstift in Vienna which one of my forebears left in exchange for masses to be said for his soul.
Another was granted lands and a castle in what is now Moravia, and when I visited, before the Iron Curtain was raised, there was a notice saying that he had oppressed the peasants mightily. Maybe that was just Communist propaganda. Maybe not.
Once, I sat next to the wife of a senior Scottish politician, who claimed that it was impossible for me to be a member of the SNP, because people with my accent just didn’t exist in the party.
But I’ve always cared about the future of Scotland. I met my future wife at a conference on devolution, back in 1976, when even the mildest degree of devolved power was a subject of hot dispute. In those days, looking at my notes from the time (together with my future wife’s telephone number) the same old arguments were being advanced – we could never do it on our own, and it was all too difficult.
What drove me to become a passionate rather than lukewarm supporter of independence was being commissioned to write a guidebook to Scotland in 1989. I had to read the history, which I had never been taught, and the realisation swept over me that Scotland, since the eleventh century, had always had the potential to be one of the most successful nations in Europe, but had never fulfilled it.
There are many reasons – factionalism, self interest, constant ill-luck, military incompetence – but one reason above all: that it was in the interests of England to keep us as powerless as possible.
This is something it achieved remarkably efficiently, rarely having to resort to the expense of war, preferring to support factions, provoke dissent, shut Scotland off from trade. This is not to blame the English in the slightest: from the point of view of an England constantly competing with the French and Spanish, it made strategic sense. It is not surprising that many of the same tactics are visible in the scare stories with which we are now bombarded.
But visiting one after another of those grey fortresses which stud our land, and reading how Mary Bruce (Robert’s sister) was hung for four years in a cage at Roxburgh in public view while her brother fought on, made me realise that there is something deep in the Scottish character which refuses to give up. Time and again in our long history there has always been someone who has come forward with the belief that our country could do better, no matter how often that dream has been shattered.
And in that history of shattered dreams – Halidon Hill, Flodden, the Killing Times, Culloden, Darien, lies, I think, our remarkable reluctance to believe that this time we can do things differently. As the Irish novelist James Joyce wrote in Ulysses – history is a nightmare from which we are trying to awake – and that nightmare is full of strange monsters which tell us that the money will run out, that we can’t defend ourselves, that we are not competent to govern ourselves properly. On the doorsteps, I hear from people who believe those monsters are real and who dare not quite grasp the priceless opportunity they have to make the future different, to awake from the nightmare.
When it comes down to it, I’m voting Yes because of the people who have gone before me, who have died, or been hung in cages, or forfeited all they have held dear for the same cause as we can now achieve by ticking a box on a piece of paper. But more than this: because it’s time for all of us to believe that Scotland has a future as its own confident self.
At moments in the grainy, flickering timeline of our past, you can see how it might have been and might yet be. The ‘luve and le‘ of Alexander III; the lust for learning and culture of the court of James IV, the popular enthusiasm of people queuing to sign the National Covenant, the beauty of Elgin cathedral, the lantern of the north.
We can have all this, if we can only persuade ourselves and others that the monsters of our nightmares do not exist – and now is the only chance we are likely to get.
.
*Andrew Leslie is better known to Wings Over Scotland readers as “Kininvie”.
Well said Andrew. More power to your elbow.
Beautifully written Andrew.
Thank you.
What a lovely piece. Thanks Andrew.
Thank you, fair made my day reading this.
I am now mightily inspired to go out and take some wine, well red biddy really.
Well written piece Andrew. I didn’t know that Mary Bruce spent 4 years in locked up in a birdcage whilst the Bruce fought on. But then again I’m in my 40’s and I cannot remember being taught Scotland’s history, only UK’s from 1707 onwards. Maybe with one exception, the laughable Darian project only to find out later in life they forgot to tell us about the Alien Act. Scottish Unionism has a lot to answer for suppressing our History and culture. We all know why they did it, they were back then, as they are now scared stiff of having anything that they deem that has nationalistic ‘undertones’ highlighted.
Excellent piece Andrew
On a personal note I recognise what you stated in your opening paragraph, as I had researched ancestry of a Portuguese friend of mine, that is also descended from Maurice Drummond son of George Árpád-ház of Hungary. It was Maurice who was escort to Margaret and King Malcolm gave Maurice the Drummond title and lands.
The Portuguese connection is that one of Maurice’s descendents, John Drummond was a ‘Knight Errand’ taking part in battles in France and ended up on the Isle of Madeira
I would like to be put in touch with you directly, so I can compare my notes
Apologies Stuart 🙂
Lovely piece, thanks.
Brilliant article, it goes to show it takes all sorts pulling in one direction to win.
@Andrew/Kininvie
Good article.
Once, I sat next to the wife of a senior Scottish politician, who claimed that it was impossible for me to be a member of the SNP, because people with my accent just didn’t exist in the party.
Was this from a SNP politician’s wife, or a Unionist’s wife?
Very good article. Only thing I would contest is that Scotland has never been a successful nation. I disagree with that. Between the WoI and Flodden Scotland was by any measure, pretty successful and regarded highly by those with whom we had extensive trading interests. And pre WoI we did OK as well.
It would take a long and boring post to detail but perhaps this medieval map of the North Sea from a Low Country perspective illustrates the point re the perceived importance of Scotland then.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/noortzeewee.jpg
Excellent, well done !
Great article. One wee thing, correct me if I’m wrong but we were taught Mary Bruce was suspended in a cage in the gates to Berwick. She would urinate on the folk passing into market. The approach to that gate is called The Mary Gate.
Thanks Andrew, love these stories of the journey to Yes.
O/T Good news.
End of the travesty known as “Call Kaye”! 🙂
Kaye Adams’ conscience has gotten the better of her, and forced her to stop being a mouthpiece for UKplc/BitterTogether. She has just announced she’ll be stepping down from “Call Kaye”.
Or perhaps is just her getting out of Dodge before she is outed for being a 30-pieces-of-silver journalist by others, or even dare we hope it, the BBC Trust.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/kaye-adams-and-coleen-nolan-rejoins-itvs-loose-women.1380801766
PS Rev, the hyper-link option seems to be broken.
Great Article Andrew – loved it
“But visiting one after another of those grey fortresses which stud our land, and reading how Mary Bruce (Robert’s sister) was hung for four years in a cage at Roxburgh in public view while her brother fought on…”
The same punishment was meted out to Isabella, Countess of Buchan, for the crime of crowning King Robert at Scone (it was the tradition that the Scottish monarch had to be crowned by a Macduff of Fife). She was imprisoned in an iron cage and hung in public view from the the walls of Berwick castle for four years.
@bramasag
I think it was Isabel, Countess of Fife, who was in the cage at Berwick. It was she who defied her husband and went to Scone to crown Bruce (as was the right of her family). One of the things we forget (or are never told) was the courage and endurance of the women who were close to Bruce – betrayed and captured, then humiliated. Without them, the story might well have been different.
To have resisted England militarily for many centuries is success.To have settled on a Union with England is arguably pragmatic and forgivable. To vote No now would be a disgrace and unforgivable.
All is in our favour:
Military conquest is no longer a threat.
Politics – the SNP have performed exceptionally well in government.
Leadership – history will write of Alex Salmond as a great patriot and leader.
Economics – Scotland is stinking rich.
The final obstacle is opening the eyes and minds of the people to the reality of Scotland’s potential.
An inspiring article Andrew Leslie, I’m off canvassing within the hour feeling good.
AmadeusMinkowski the archive link
http://archive.is/ksbwe
Thank you Andrew, the stories of Scots mercenaries fighting in Europe has always been fascinating to me – totally unheard of in my childhood history lessons.
Where pre union Scots history was taught at all, it was only how the Scots affected the English, ie the Wars of Independence and Mary “Queen of Scots”. Why isn’t she just called Queen Mary?
That was a wonderful read … thank you.
Wonderful piece. Strikes a chord with my own situation.
Really enjoyed reading that article Andrew.
@AmadeusMinkowski
On Kaye Adams..Don’t crack open the champagne just yet my friend, the Scottish Labour Party mouthpiece at BBC Scotland is not quite finished.
A BBC Scotland spokesman said ” Adams would continue to present Call Kaye as normal until Christmas and, next year, only on one day a week – Friday. The name of the show will change to Morning Call after Christmas. Details of her replacement on Monday-Thursday will be announced in due course.”
How do you get rid of a witch?????.
Conan, she is called “Queen of Scots” because she was a Queen Regnant, not a Queen Consort. In other words, she was the Monarch, not the mere wife of a Monarch.
Scottish Kings were also termed “King of Scots”.
@ AmadeusMinkowski. Did have a giggle at Derek Bateman’s take on Kaye’s move.
…”Kaye Adams is in the news as she’s returning to her telly roots. It’s a show called Loose Women which I haven’t seen but may be related to bowel problems.”
Very interesting story Andrew. Thank you for telling us. Inspiration all around here.
Thanks I enjoyed that. My own family name originates from the norman DeLogyn (Logan) they settled in what is now East Ayrshire. We were in good company our neighbours to the west were the DeBruze and we had the Douglases to the East. We don’t get many mentions but we were very heavily involved in the WoI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Logan
The thing that sets The Bruce above Wallace for me anyway is as mentioned in the article Margaret Bruce was hung in a cage as was the Countess of Buchan they were captured by treachery and held as hostages along with The Bruce’s wife and daughter and the Bishop of Glasgow (Wishart).
Bruce’s wife and daughter got off “lightly” and sent to separate convents as prisoners due to Bruce’s wife being related to Edward II. It was always on offer to The Bruce that if he surrendered the hostages would be released and he would have been granted a small estate, probably in the South of England there to live out his life but he chose to fight on.
These prisoners were eventually released during a hostage exchange. They were exchanged for the several hundred English knights captured at Bothwell Castle when they took shelter there after the battle of Bannockburn.
Andrew have you visited Balgonie castle near Glenrothes? Lots of Leslie history there.
thanks for the article, I too suffer from a military brat accent and start many sentences, “despite my accent, I’m actually from here” …
@holebender
Yes, I did know that 🙂
My point was that our Queen was called “of Scots” to differentiate from “Bloody Mary”, also a queen in her own right. A Scots history should just call her Queen Mary.
There is the King Alexanders’ I, II and III – they are not known to history as Alexander, King of Scots, because there weren’t any English kings called Alexander…
…so again, why do we call our queen by an English sobriquet?
@Conan
I was taught that the correct title of the Scottish monarch is e.g. James IV, King of Scots. This was because they are monarch of the people but not of the land.
That may or may not be true, but it might tie in with the fact that there is no law of trespass in Scotland, i.e. the land is (supposed to be) accessible to us all. Not sure how that fits with the Crown Estates though…
I think it is either laziness or ignorance that the correct style is not generally used for the other Scottish monarchs. I have seen it in use for other Stewarts, but it should be used for them all.
I learn things about Scotland on a regular basis on Wings – good article.
Call Kaye – now she is leaving, can’t we have ‘Debate with Bateman’ instead? At least its better than ‘morning call’ sounds like a depressing, non humorous version of Rikki Fultons Late Call.
Hi Conan, maybe your referring to the fact that our Kings and Queens were never called King of Scotland etc, they could be king over the people but not the land!
I was told the reason for this but it has slipped my mind but I am sure someone else can fill in the gaps.
BTW, your not thinking of applying for the post are you?
hmm, King Conan the first does have a certain ring to it I suppose.
a loyal peasant
Call Kaye is to be replaced with ‘Labouring the point’
I’ve just finished reading Nigel Tranter’s The Story of Scotland (for the second time) and concur with Andrew’s story. Rarely has our neighbour had to resort to invasion and war to promote its interests over ours.
It might interest readers to know that Scotland is (was) one of the oldest nation states and self governing entities in Europe. Older than a united England, France, Germany, Italy and the rest.
The Darien Scheme, failure of which led to union, was actively sabotaged by England in its earliest stages. England feared that a sovereign Scotland could act to place James VIII and III on the throne and thus separate the union of the crowns again, as the English parliament had already earmarked George of Hanover as successor to the English throne.
England dictated the Darien Scheme as unlawful and compelled English investors to withdraw their money. They also used their ambassador network to convince foreign subscribers to withdraw.
Similar to today, there was great debate about whether the proposed union should be federal or, as England preferred, incorporating, with Scotland losing its identity completely. In the end it was an incorporating union.
Like today there was a body of opinion that the union would be good for Scotland, not only for the aristocracy but also for the new business classes (ordinary people rose up in outrage however).
According to Tranter, it was not to be.
“From the start the union proved manifestly unsatisfactory for most Scots – even for the Lords who had so solidly voted for it…(who) found themselves no longer legislators”
“Scots elected to the House of Commons…speedily found themselves to be very second-rate members – and of course able to be outvoted on any and every issue by the vast english majority””
“A new burden was promptly laid upon Scotland – taxation”
“(The Scottish) economy was just not geared to support a large central authority. Suddenly that was changed and the country became liable for a share in maintaining a standing army, a navy, a foreign and colonial service, a bureaucracy and all the panoply of state deemed suitable for a major power”
“This would not have been quite so bad if trade had increased as a result of union, as had been promised; instead trade actually dwindled and many…found it more profitable to move to London…”
“Also many clauses of the Treaty of Union were a dead letter from the start, and broken at will, redress all but impossible in a House of Commons hostile to the Scots”
Ring any bells anyone? Let’s fight fight and fight again to ensure we finally fulfill the potential that Andrew mentions. Fool me once and all that…
Classic stuff Andrew.
“The monsters of our nightmares do not exist – and now is the only chance we are likely to get.”
Conan, if she was called Queen Mary there would be no way of distinguishing between Mary the Monarch and Mary the wife of a Monarch. I don’t understand why you can’t see the distinction.
Why is Lizzie’s husband called Prince Philip and not King Philip? Because he is not a King. The English language can be very imprecise, and this is one such situation; the word queen can mean either a female monach or the wife of a king. Scots obviously has tried to make a distinction by designating a monarch as “Queen of Scots” rather than simply “Queen”.
Outstanding post Andrew/Kininvie.
Thank you
‘…you ask why did the BBC block comments to BT (Brian Taylor) and Scotland’s answer to Robert Peston, Douglas Fraser?
Pardon me but I’m buggered if I know. I mean what is the point of going online and asking your two key editors covering the most controversial topics to analyse and interest the audience and then blocking any responses from that audience? The only other place doing this is China.’
from drderekbateman.wordpress.com
Biff! Kapow! Whap!
I believe it was William of Orange who sank the Darian Project.
Loved that masterpiece of writing.
Nigel Tranter has been so many folks introduction to Scots history. He has played a huge part in the modern Scottish indy movement.
Bishop Wishart seems to have played a major part in the wars of independence. He must have been a remarkable man.
Queen, Queen of, 1st, 2nd, 6th, … maybe a future [democratic] move to a Republic would make language a bit simpler in future?
Inspiring deep down thoughts, from reasoning. What inspires a No vote.
Any monarch in Scotland was never king or queen of Scotland. The monarchy in Scotland is very different to that in England, in that it is the people who are sovereign in Scotland – in that they could if the monarch displeased them, effectively get rid of them.
In England however, until 1689, the monarch was absolute and sovereign, and was king or queen of England. The absolute power of the English monarch was also why, in 1689, in England, the English parliament produced the Bill of rights, which removed absolute sovereignty from the English monarchy, and gave it to Westminster, the English parliament. Thus Westminster claims to have sovereignty, although that is not true in regards to Scotland, as the status in Scotland was not altered by the treaty of Union.
Also in 1689, in Scotland, there was the Scottish claim of right, which is often mistaken by English historians as being the same as the English Bill of rights, but it wasn’t. One key aspect of the Scottish claim of right, was that it re-asserted that the PEOPLE of Scotland were sovereign (not parliament or monarchy). The Scottish claim of right of 1689, had its origins in the declaration of Arbroath. It is this concept of sovereignty of the people of Scotland which as been carried forward to later claims of right in the 50’s and 80’s and more recently.
http://www.snp.org/speech/2012/jan/claim-right
So the name means literally what it says, king of Scots. It is not an insult by historians, it is actually correct. There has never been a king or queen of Scotland (the country), only kings or queens of Scots (the people). Hence we had, Mary Queen of Scots, and Robert the Bruce, King of Scots, and so on.
At the opening of the Scottish parliament in 2011, The First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, in his address, referred to the current queen (who was present) as Elizabeth, queen of Scots.
Excellent article by the way. Well done.
Someone might point a certain Mr G Hastings towards this excellent insighful piece on Scotland the Nation not the cringeworthy meaningless Scotland the ‘notion’.
Perhaps this would help him along the path towards a ‘meaningful’ YES vote.
10/10 from me. Some great articles of late.
Fascinating insight into the mind behind the posted name. Subtle and erudite.
I just read an article about Kevin Bridges thoughts on Independence, seems to have show what he has decided.
He just received an invitation to Cameron’s St Andrews Day celebration at Downing Street of “the Contribution that Scotland makes to the UK”.
He said,” “Got this through the door today, my heart is saying “f*** that” and my head is saying “Aye, f*** that.”
He tweeted this to his 664,000 followers.
An excellent article Andrew, thank you.
Very o/t sorry Andrew, but very funny. Ladies and gentlemen I present, Kevin Bridges the new folk hero of Scotland.
“It is the national day of our patron saint, and will doubtless feature powerfully different messages from either side of the great indyref debate.
It is the national day of our patron saint, and will doubtless feature powerfully different messages from either side of the great indyref debate.
Well, if there was any doubt where top Scottish comedian Kevin Bridges stands on the referendum, we’ve got a clearer idea now, judging by the response he tweeted to his 644,000 Twitter followers today.
He posted the above image, adding: “Got this through the door today, my heart is saying “f*** that” and my head is saying “Aye, f*** that” (and no, he didn’t use asterisks…)”
The Herald now.
Robert Louis, I will disagree on one point; I believe there have been many Queens of Scotland – the women who were married to the Kings of Scots. e.g. Queen Margaret of Scotland.
Unfortunately the invitation from “call me Dave” didn’t go through with the post, see it on the Herald website.
Gordoz,
I agree with your thoughts on Hastings. The problem with people such as him, and there are a few in Scotland, is that their assertions regarding Scotland and independence, are based upon misinformation. Gavin is not daft, and I do not doubt that if he genuinely looked into what he has stated, he would realise how wrong he is. The problem however, is that he doesn’t realise that what he has said is hogwash. In many ways, you might call him an innocent victim.
This also explains why the ‘NO’ vote is very soft, because people are often getting the truth for the very first time. This explains why Bitter together are so desperate, as they know their vote is soft and is slipping away. It also explains the YES strategy of many people banging doors and talking to people, so they get the truth, instead of 300+ years of Westminster inspired unionist lies. Very few NO voters in my experience are hard to ‘convert’, you just need the facts. It’s also why sites such as this and Newsnet Scotland are such a bonus.
Still doesn’t excuse Gavin’s trousers though, FFS!!
O/T ish, but maybe not if referring to journey to YES.
Tweeted by Stan Blackley
‘Standing room only, people queuing, and #Yes voters asked to make space for ‘undecideds’ at #YesLeith public meeting pic.twitter.com/ykNtbcAjKG
I had wanted to go to this event tonight to find out what undecideds are undecided about – but I’m incubating the lurgi at the mo – so didn’t. Just as well as it seems packed out – hope a fair few are swayed to YES:-)
Holebender,
I’m not an expert, and you are probably correct, as they were not monarch etc… as you said above.
Ever since I moved to Scotland (30 years ago) I have had difficulty in understanding the shades of the scottish ‘cringe’, as this process towards independence proceeds, I understand it more and more. I weep at the gulf that exists between many people of Scotland and their missing early encounters with their languages, history and culture – but then I am very aware of the rich treasures that are there to be discovered. It has been inspirational and educational reading the posts over the last couple of days. Found this the other day, it’s to do with knowing place.
http://www.scotslanguage.com/books/view/23/795
Most folk are happy to drift through life. As long we are generally happy, everything seems ok.
Establishment unionists never need to question their way of life, as everything seems rosy. They don’t get the hard lessons of poverty, unemployment etc, that make us lesser beings question ‘the system’.
I think the likes of Hastings are genuinely puzzled as to why some folk think this system could be bettered.
Tjenny,
That is good news. I’ve seen quite a few flyers and posters about the meeting around the foot of the walk.
Robert Louis / Hastings
Its a simple as Nation v Notion
YES the trousers – they are also unforgivable !
Brian Powell,
as regards the celebration of “the Contribution that Scotland makes to the UK”, let’s have a think, what contributions might that be?? Maybe nearly forty years of free oil from Scotland and nothing but insults back. That should get them started.
It will be interesting to see which Scots choose to attend such a blatant piece of manipulation by the Tories.
Wow, as regards the leith meeting, the pciture is astonishing – so many people. Somebody has tweeted, that they should have held it at Easter Road.
https://twitter.com/stanblackley/status/385834461856014336/photo/1
An evocative and very moving piece of writing. Thank you.
Andrew Leslie, before I rudely went O/T, I should have expressed my congratulations on your writing a great article. Thank you.
Andrew,
I thoroughly enjoyed reading your piece. The one passage that you mention
history is a nightmare from which we are trying to awake – and that nightmare is full of strange monsters which tell us that the money will run out, that we can’t defend ourselves, that we are not competent to govern ourselves properly. On the doorsteps, I hear from people who believe those monsters are real and who dare not quite grasp the priceless opportunity they have to make the future different, to awake from the nightmare.
I’m about to go on a longish spiel here, so apologies, but I will tell you what history has taught me and thus influenced me about our nations history and the world today.
To me, history is not a nightmare, but a true awareness of how the world is. I have read so much history; Greek and Spartan history, Alexander the Great, The Roman Empire, Caesar, History of the Caesars, the Crusades, Byzantium, the Middle East, Edward the 1st, Henry VIII, the British Empire, Modern Britain, American Imperialism …and of course …the one part of my library that contains more books on one subject than any other…
Scotland
Believe me, I have spent 30 years of my life learning as much as possible when it comes to History. History is everything! If you read it, you learn Geography. Then if you combine both, you get Geo-Politics. This brings in Economics and Religion. It also brings in Arts and Culture. You slowly develop a real knowledge of this world.
History is not a nightmare! I think Joyce was wrong on this. History to me, is up there with pure Mathematics, because it reveals so much and it opens so many avenues of learning! History is only a nightmare if one does not bother to learn it. That is when people become fearful (hence …the good old Project Fear!).
Once you begin to learn history, you no longer see the monsters or the fear. You only see how the world works and how it came to be this way. You also see a greater truth or understanding in a matter, and that any lies that have been perpetuated, have been done so for a reason …and it is always for pure selfish reasons.
For Scotland, it’s true. Our history has been one of continual struggle, and half of the time, it has been against ourselves. Scotland is nation that is divided north from south, east from west, fought and split over religion, politics, and even now …the union. I would bet my house on it, that we will fight over something else; just amongst the Scots, even after Independence!
Scottish history was never bland or boring. It is angry, vibrant, shocking, bitter, but also truly euphoric at times. At times, the things that we achieved were breathtaking!
We have been told, and at times, we seem to believe what we are told, that we are the ‘almost’ guys; the team that ‘snatches defeat from the jaws of victory’, that we got hammered in just about every battle with England …that we are ‘too poor, too wee, too stupid’.
Well …that is utter drivel!
Sure Scotland took a hammering of England quite a few times, but we also battered them when they least expected it. We were never conquered (though some would say Cromwell did do that!).
Looking to our achievements instead then …well it was Scotland who built the British Empire. Without the Scots, half of the major trading companies would never existed or would have been poorer for it. Scotland was the most educated nation in the world for over 200 years from the late 1500’s to the early 1800’s. Scotland became the No 1 nation in the world between 1760 to 1820 due to the incredible wealth of philosophers and writers. The period of enlightenment was created by the Scots, and it something for which we are still famed (our ability to philosophise on every subject, be it in the pub, workplace, golf course or gathering is world legendary. We are a seriously philosophical nation!). We were the vanguard that built America. It was Scots who built the navies of the USA and Japan. It was Scots who practically ran the British Empire and turned it into the greatest empire ever seen. It was also Dr David Livingstone who changed that empire form one of greed, to one of philanthropy and raising up of the poorest nations.
George Street in Edinburgh was considered the richest street in the world at one time because of its insurance and banking companies. Edinburgh today, is the 4th biggest financial center in Europe. We lead the way in Green Technology. We are world leaders in science and medicine. Our universities in some lists sit in the top 50 in the world. Our soldiers are renowned for their fighting capabilities. We invented the television, the telephone, macadamised roads, steel, etc. I mean …here’s a link to what our countrymen have invented – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries
Therefore, after all that …don’t you believe a word of it …when someone tells us that ‘we can’t do it, or we are too small, or we are too poor’.
Absolute bloody garbage!
This nation which has never had a population greater than 5.4 million. She has not just punched above her weight in the world; she IS the No 1 country in the world for achievements and influence. Only the Roman Empire matches Scotland for what it has invented and thus influenced the world. America comes pretty close also in this (if we take the USA as a global power and an influencing imperialism). Both of these empires, also have massive populations in the 100 millions.
Scotland has never had a population greater than 5.4 million.
That is why I refuse …utterly refuse …to believe anyone, who says, ‘we are too small, too poor, too stupid’ – It’s utter garbage!
All of these things we achieved before, and I have no doubt that as an independent nation, we can achieve other achievements that will benefit the world. We can’t help it; it is in our nature to prove that we can do it.
But it can only be done through Independence. We are a social nation. An egalitarian nation. These days, the mood of the nation is not what could Scotland’s wealth do for me, but what it can do for the people of this nation, and the generations of children that will come after us.
A nation is judged on two things. How it looks after it people, and that of it’s arts and culture. In both, we are truly rich.
To me, Independence is the only way to go. I shudder to think what may happen if we remain tied to Westminster, and it’s alien ‘banking system’. Westminster has made it clear that once the banks were bailed, it was business as usual in Casino banking, involved in wars that had nothing to do with us, and hammering the middle classes and the poor. That is not nationhood to me. That is the culture of greed and dominance.
I apologise for all of this if it is far too long, but after what Andrew has written so wonderfully above, I feel that we need to end this nonsense of being told, that we are too poor, too wee, too stupid. That is why, I would have words with any man, who says ‘Scotland can’t do it!’
Excellent piece. I am of the 60s and very early 70s school, (Primary 1961 to 1968, secondary 1968 to 1972). No Scottish history except for a wonderful primary school teacher who told us the story of Bruce and Wallace, (Thank you Miss Macgregor). The rest I learned through Nigel Tranter and reading Scottish history books. I hope we win and all children learn this secret history.
Well said, JLT!
@ JLT like, and we were the best in the neolithic x.
Great read JLT, thanks.
Reminds of the old saying, (please correct me here if I’m wrong):
“Scotland, a cruel mother who produced valiant sons.”
@JLT-
Powerful post there. Good stuff.
But I think you’re maybe being a toty bit harsh on Mr Joyce. Maybe he was trying to get at what Burns captured so brilliantly in the last stanza of ‘To A Mouse‘:
‘Still, thou art blest, compar’d wi me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e’e,
On prospects drear!
An’ forward, tho’ I canna see,
I guess an’ fear.’
Andrew when folk like you (not in a derogatory sense) are attracted to our Independence banner there is a chance that we will succeed.
Thanks for an excellent piece that spoke from the heart.
Keep writing.
What I cant understand about people like Gavin Hastings is, if they say they are “true Scots”, and (imagine) they were standing on the other side of the barriers at the Edinburgh Yes Rally last week, then I would like to know, what do they really think of the Scots that are involved in the Rally?.
He would be looking at a huge gathering of fellow Scots with banners flying, pipe bands playing, There must be some difference between us and people like him if he refuses to join his fellow Scots in a day of celebration.
Maybe he would explain that conundrum to us in his next writings.
First of all I should add my voice to those extolling the posts on the culture and history of Scotland over the last few threads. I have enjoyed reading them and relearning bits of history from the excellent contributions made.
Well done:
PS:
Coincidence is a funny thing ..
“What’s wrang wie you then” my better half says tonight at tea time.
“Did you know that the first TV and Telephone was a British invention” I say as I spit feathers and emerge raging from the kitchen
” Are they” she says …
“According to BBC radio Scotland news drive they are” I said.
Now that’s true , that’s what they said on Scottish radio… a wee bit about folk not knowing what engineering is and who invented what
My better half .. still disnae get it!
———————————–
@:0{
Folk turned away in Edinbrugh tonight; folk turned away from the RIC Glasgow thing last night…think people are beginning to wake up and start wondering.
Has Kevin Bridges come out one way or the other, btw? Spurning an invite from a Tory leader at Downing Street doesn’t necessarily tell you where he is on the indy question. He could be a Labour no, or his head could just be telling him his fans would think he was a right cock for going to something like that.
Ianbrotherhood,
If I have misquoted Joyce, then I do apologise. History has taught me so much, that to fear it would be so wrong. One day, and hopefully, I will get around to James Joyce. At present though, if there is one author whose entire works I am determined to get through, it is the utterly brilliant, George Orwell. A writer, whose vision of politics, taught us the darker side of politics and class warfare. A truly brilliant mind.
I’ve just had one of those days. Someone again said to me, ‘we can’t dae it’ …well, yes we bloody can! Yes, we bloody can! Pick up a book on your nation and read it! (aw dinnae …dinnae get me going again! My workmate, Pete says I get too passionate and fired up when it comes to this (LOL) (‘Patience and calmness is the key’ – new mantra).
Cheers again though, Ian.
@cath – Kevin said a while back that if the referendum was tomorrow he would probably vote YES. I think we can take it he has made his mind up.
Also tweets coming through than Anas Sarwar and some other Labour MP are getting a hard time tonight at a meeting in Clydebank. All good.
re Leith:
It’s got to be this one, not t’other one –
O?T thank you for your article, But is that the name you saw and I saw ER Hrabe Leslie in Southern and Western Moravia, perhaps near Pernstejn?
It’s pretty fascinating stuff to know where you come from and how you got here. My surname leads many to believe my ancestry lies in Ireland but while this is somewhat true, they moved there to fight the Jacobite cause, only to return to Scotland to continue the fight in ’15’ and ’45’. Not much is known about my mother’s side except that they where Borderers who owned land near Annan and defended it from the English at every turn. I’d like to think they hung out with the Bruce, you never know.
To get back to my original point, it is believed that my ancestors can be traced to the Cargill area of Perth and as far back as chronicles labeling them as Picts who where happy to live among Gaels. I am quite proud to know that I am a product of the original inhabitants of this little country of ours. To vote ‘NO’ would be a stain to my name and would have my ancestors birling in their graves.
Cath.
As reported by National Collectyive last December Bridges said to the Big Issue,
“If the referendum was tomorrow, I’d probably vote yes. We’ve had New Labour, never worked. The coalition’s clearly not working. There’s one Tory seat in Scotland. The Tory government, they’re good for comedy, but Scotland’s clearly a different country politically, and culturally as well. It’s the third option”
@JLT
Methinks you are being but a tad harsh on yourself.
To me that was a great and inspiring post; A wise head on wise shoulders. Loved the bit about “History is everything” how it becomes all encompassing.
I was another one never taught Scottish history and you, and Kininvie (thanks to you too) have got me rather excited about a journey of discovery that I never knew existed. Your passion is truly infectious.
Inspiring.
@JLT-
No, no, no, I’m not saying you misquoted him. I’ve only read bits and bobs of Joyce, have never completed Ulysses despite buying it nineteen years ago. (And Finnegans Wake? Nae chance.)
I’m very suspicious of anyone who claims to ‘understand’ what he was on about. (BTW, if you do ever fancy having a go at his stuff, please go for Dubliners rather than the heavier later stuff, and keep in mind that when he wrote ‘The Dead’, the longish story at the end of it, he was only in his mid-20’s. Astonishing stuff.
And Orwell? Couldn’t agree more. Love the man. Have a framed portrait of him up on the wall behind me so he can keep an eye on what I’m up to. (Sad, but true!)
@JLT
Don’t get me wrong here, but I find it mildly ironic that the instances you give of Scotland’s achievements are all after 1707! And that’s the unspoken implication of the BT campaign, isn’t it – that within the Union you can achieve so much, but outside it, you’ll just squabble and be poor.
Part of the reason I wrote the way I did was to show that I’m inspired by what Scotland was before 1707. There’s grim reading there, no doubt about it, and if I could go back in time and give ‘a doing’ to some of the characters in our history….well, there’s quite a long list. But all the time that flame shines through.
As you rightly say, Scottish history is angry, vibrant, shocking, bitter – but never boring. But the nightmares I spoke of come, I think, from the fear that the anger and bitterness (aye, and factionalism and distrust) may resurface and do us all down.
This is the argument we need to have – and it’s with ourselves as much as with the outside world. Do we trust ourselves? Are we confident in that trust? Can we work together in the interests of Scotland and not fall apart? You say that you’d bet your house that we’ll fight about something else – you are no doubt right, but the question is whether – once the fight is over – whether we accept the result, or hide the sword in the thatch, waiting for the ‘next time’.
I’ll tell you something that gives me real hope, and that is, that increasingly over this long campaign I find the Yes side drawing together – finding common ground – laughing and bantering with those who might be their natural political opponents. And for why? Becausewe all have the same interest at heart – gaining our country, and making it work.
When we vote Yes next year, we are going to have a lot to prove – to the outside world, but above all to ourselves. The nightmares need to be stopped.
Cheers Jon D.
If there is one thing I would wish wholeheartedly if Scotland becomes independent, is for Scottish history to be taught properly. Not ‘Farming in Scotland’ as I was taught back in 1983 ‘O’ grade history (bloody awful – the whole of our history, and we get taught the bloody runrig system. Personally, I think it was designed that way so you would switch off from Scottish history. In other words …’If it’s that bad …stuff there rest of it.’ (I’m serious by the way when I say that!)).
If you do decide to read Scottish history. Wait till you get to John Knox and the Reformation. From then on, it’s wild stuff. The religious wars that battered not just Scotland, but the whole of Britain. It’s Scottish Presbyterianism v Catholicism v English Episcopalianism. A 3 way fight to the death!
And during this period, we have Knox v Mary Queen of Scots, James VI (King of Scotland and England), the Union of Crowns, Charles the 1st (head cut off), Cromwell, invasion of Scotland by Cromwell, Charles the 2nd (throne restored), Fall of the House of Stewarts due to the Glorious Revolution, William of Orange, Darien and finally ….the Union itself. All of this before 1707 and the Union (and we are told …nowt happened!)
After 1707, we could then add the Jacobite rebellions, Bonnie Prince Charlie and Culloden. Both of whose roots were lie in the years prior to Union. That takes us to 1745. Then the explosion of enlightenment and of Scotland’s rise to being the greatest nation in the world. that takes us to the mid 1800’s.
So all of this we are told, is boring, bland, nothing happened, that Scottish history is dreadful, just folk running about the highlands stabbing each other or stealing cattle, blah, blah, blah.
Well, was it hell! It was extreme stuff! Other nations would die for a history like that!
Seriously …read, learn, believe.
fascinating, and thank you for sharing. As for Queens of Scots, the remarks made about sovereignty lying with the people is how I have always been told it. Plus Prince Philip is not a king but a Prince consort cos he’s a man, the ladies who marry the Kings of England get to be called queens because they’re not seen as a potential threats, at least that’s also what I’ve been told. Good to know the meetings are getting popular and also that the Bankies are staying true to form and being Bolshie with Anas et al. Big smiley face.
@JLT
Thanks again
Without putting to fine a point on it, it seems as though I and so many like me have only been living half a life not knowing all this information, this wondrous code that identifies us for who and what and why we are. No wonder so many people don’t have the confidence to take the bigger decisions, to grab the opportunity to make their communities and hence their Country the magnificent place it could be -amongst the best in the world as you mention.
Seriously …read, learn, believe – I will indeed.
Kininvie,
I find it mildly ironic that the instances you give of Scotland’s achievements are all after 1707! And that’s the unspoken implication of the BT campaign, isn’t it?
—————
Kininvie. Yes, your right, the achievements did happen after 1707 and did happen under the Union. But the point that I make is that it was Scotland that carried the rest of Britain in this period; NOT Britain carrying Scotland.
Personally, I think England got lucky and struck gold when it realised what wealth of knowledge actually sat north of the border in the mid 1700’s.
BT if they want, can point this out if they wish, and technically, they would be right. But that would only be telling half of the story. It should be noted that it was Scotland, and the Scots, who dragged the rest of the world into the modern era. I have read nowhere …absolutely nowhere …where it says that it was Great Britain, or the Union that created the Modern World. Every book that I have read, says it was Scotland and the Scots. It is always to Scotland that the rest of the world pays homage too when it comes to writing, economics, inventions, and philosophy during that period.
I’m not going to ignore the successes of Scotland, just because she was in the Union. I’ll be truthful here and say, yes, it did happen in the Union, but that time has passed (and passed a f***** long time ago).
Seriously …and I bloody mean this ….BT can’t cast up the period of 1760 to 1820 and say, ‘oh look how great we were together at that time! That is why we must remain in a union!’ – It was 200 years ago!!! It doesn’t count! The world has moved on!!! Everybody from that period has been dead for 200 years!!!
That is my answer to BT on that argument from the Golden Age.
Kininvie, I do see what you are saying, but personally …it is not an argument for BT, nor a reason to deny a golden period for Scotland in the age of Union. My argument is that Scotland did do these achievements, and therefore, it means we are not too poor, nor too stupid, nor too wee. All of this all happened a long time ago, and it is not a prime reason for us to stay in the Union. If BT think this, then they are kidding themselves! The world has moved on, and all things eventually do come to an end …even the good old Union!
‘…read, learn, believe..’.
Kin right.
It’s called self-education.
Remember Blair’s ‘Education. Education. Education.‘?
Must be one of the tritest, most cynical political slogans of all time. The bastard never once championed ‘self-education’ because he, Brown, Darling, Campbell, Mandelson, Prescott (okay, maybe not him) and all the other New Labour apparatchiks (including the wee Milibands) knew that if the electorate was even remotely clued-up about their real intentions and back-room dealings then we’d have hoofed them out on their arses after one term.
But we didn’t ‘self-educate’ in sufficient numbers. And look what happened. Look who’s in there now. Being brutally logical about it? we’ve only ourselves to blame (and I’m talking about the UK electorate, okay?) but we are where we are, and it’s never ever too late to learn. MSM won’t help us, and there’s no sense in hoping it’ll happen. It won’t. We have to do it ourselves.
@JLT
Personally, I think it was designed that way so you would switch off from Scottish history.
I don’t think there can be many doubts that that has been the case. You can also add Scottish culture. Think who it would suit if Scottish history and culture were both sidelined for say the best part of 300 years?
Like history? Condider these comments from Scotland’s past.
The bestial people of the Picts with savage mind despised subjection to the Saxons.
Vita Wilfridi. 710 ad.
Scotland’s misfortunes have not yet quenched her spirit.
Letter from the Estates of Scotland to Francis I of France. 1515 ad.
(18 months after Flodden)
None the less, in spite of the vengeance taken on the Scots who aided the party of Robert the Bruce, the multitude of those who desired to confirm him in the kingdom increased from day to day.
Lanercost Chronicle. 1307 ad.
Our history shows that there is much more to us Scots than meets the eye. Have faith my friends.
Ianbrotherhood,
You are spot on there, mate. We were all taken for fools. I just hope that we vote ourselves into Independence and escape this terrible neo-liberal-conservatism.
What is it they say …fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
We can’t afford to lose a second referendum after 1979.
The thing is, the world is a totally different place from 1997 and Labours great victory. We no longer need the media. We have social networking, and we have word of mouth. It is at this level, that I believe the real conversion of the masses will take place. Then the media should follow once they realise the mood of the nation. God help the media if they don’t! That is why I don’t hide my politics. It is why I try to teach folk of their nations past. It is trying to raise their awareness, that sooner or later, they begin to ask questions in their own mind. As Margo said, ‘convert 1 person each. We win!’
And now guys, I’m away (wife has demanded I get off the PC!). Speak to you all tomorrow.
Cheers JLT.
I seldom award these to anyone (especially now, as I store them for winter) but here ye go mister:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Coconut.png
Then the media should follow once they realise the mood of the nation.
Yes; strange as that may seem based on past form. You can see it already though.
As I said earlier – what a great article – and what a great set of posts thereafter. Very enjoyable.
@kininvie-
Your essay is brilliant, but I found it upsetting for reasons which are very difficult to explain. Truth be told, I don’t believe I could write a similar piece stating so concisely (and calmly!), why I support this cause. It’s just too complicated for me to know where to start – perhaps, being an ‘outsider’ of sorts, you can see the situation with greater clarity than any home-grown ‘Scot’ could ever manage.
About five, maybe six years ago, I was coming home from Newcastle, via Edinburgh, on a Virgin train. It was a late-ish journey, very quiet. I had four ‘seats’ to myself, an elderly lady was occupying the ‘four’ in front of me. I was nodding-off sporadically. At one of the few stops, perhaps Berwick, a couple (also elderly) boarded, and sat in the empty ‘four’ across the aisle from the lady in front of me. They chatted briefly about something, whereupon the solitary lady struck up conversation, shifted herself across, and they (i.e. the women) blethered away until we reached Edinburgh. The man had a blue blazer with gold buttons, uttered the occasional noise when prompted by his missus, but never once released recognisable words.
To cut a long proverbial as short as possible – these folk were of the ‘type’ you describe yourself as coming from. They sounded perfectly decent, civil, but the subject-matter was astonishing (to me, anyway). Turns out the couple were on the way to Edinburgh for the Tattoo because the security restrictions at Heathrow were becoming ‘beastly’ and on a recent trip she’d been forced to part company with her lipstick.
They were going to the Tattoo because the son was the Sergeant-Major of something or other, and so the subject turned to children, boarding schools etc. The solitary lady explained that her own boy had experienced some kind of breakdown early in his academic career (what age he was at the time I’ve no idea) and he had been sent home, was determined not to return. She felt desperately sad about it all but had to impress upon him, ‘It’s your duty darling’. So he was sent back the following day.
‘It’s your duty.‘
I’ve never ever forgotten that. Of course, the couple were understanding, knew precisely what the poor dear had been through.
So, I don’t know, Kininvie, if you can help out at all, but perhaps you have an insight that most of us simply can’t begin to get our heads around – what is the nature of this ‘duty’, and what price for those (such as yourself now?) who choose not to honour it?
Please forgive me asking such a personal question, but it does seem pertinent. I’ll understand if you choose not to respond.
In any event, thanks for a thought-provoking post. Cheers.
I’m loving the history spin we’ve been having on Wings: we have enough here to open our own wee forum!
@Chic McGregor: Only thing I would contest is that Scotland has never been a successful nation. I disagree with that. Between the WoI and Flodden Scotland was by any measure, pretty successful and regarded highly by those with whom we had extensive trading interests. And pre WoI we did OK as well.
Very much so.
@kininvie: One of the things we forget (or are never told) was the courage and endurance of the women who were close to Bruce – betrayed and captured, then humiliated. Without them, the story might well have been different.
Isabella in particular is a figure who I think is absolutely crucial in the Wars of Independence, and the Bruce women too. I made a point of involving them in the Bannockburn comic.
@velofello: To have resisted England militarily for many centuries is success.
As said, we’re a nation that never exceeded 5.4 million people, yet we managed to stand our ground against a country many times that number.
@Conan_The_Librarian: Thank you Andrew, the stories of Scots mercenaries fighting in Europe has always been fascinating to me – totally unheard of in my childhood history lessons.
It’s quite amazing. For one thing, there’s an entire population in Poland which was founded when thousands of Scottish mercenaries decided to settle down.
@The Man In The Jar: The thing that sets The Bruce above Wallace for me anyway is as mentioned in the article Margaret Bruce was hung in a cage as was the Countess of Buchan they were captured by treachery and held as hostages along with The Bruce’s wife and daughter and the Bishop of Glasgow (Wishart). Bruce’s wife and daughter got off “lightly” and sent to separate convents as prisoners due to Bruce’s wife being related to Edward II. It was always on offer to The Bruce that if he surrendered the hostages would be released and he would have been granted a small estate, probably in the South of England there to live out his life but he chose to fight on.
What I find most appealing about the Bruce is his redemption. In his youth, he was like many young nobles his age: ambitious, bloody-minded, eager for power and wealth, and hated Scots of a feuding dynasty more than the English (not least because of the family ties between the Scots and English). But after everything was taken from him, after he lost his lands, his family, and almost all hope for victory, he came back. Even after defeat upon defeat, he kept fighting. Even after his male kin were murdered and his female kin incarcerated, he kept fighting. And even though years of fighting and possible illness meant he could scarcely enjoy a kingship in comparison to a comfortable retirement in England, he kept fighting.
@JLT: I’m about to go on a longish spiel here, so apologies, but I will tell you what history has taught me and thus influenced me about our nations history and the world today.
I echo the other commenters in saying that was a fantastic speech.
I always found the idea of framing international relations as “punching above our weight” rather needlessly pugilistic. Why does it have to be a fight? The Scots didn’t need to conquer huge swathes of territory in order to shape the world: they simply travelled, explored, invented, and created. Look at Carnegie, Livingstone, all that gang.
@Kininvie: I find it mildly ironic that the instances you give of Scotland’s achievements are all after 1707! And that’s the unspoken implication of the BT campaign, isn’t it?
Well, we’ll just have to remind everyone of the pre 1707 achievements, then? We have Duns Scotus, after all.
JLT
Well put, re reading, as well as Scottish History I would put Gramsci in every bodies reading list, his theory of how the establishment use “Cultural Hegemony” to divide and rule is well known to us in Scotland although we might not have realised it yet.
Visited his grave at the (Non Catholic – Protestant Cemetary) in Rome last year and played him Bandera Rosa by The Laggan, Im sure he enjoyed it.
The American caretakers could not believe that two people had travelled from Scotland to pay homage. Some lesser English poets called Keats and Shelley apparently are the main attactions.
JLT says
I get the same grief JLT !
O/T – Since there have been some great nights of discussion noted on the referendum. Isn’t there an opportunity for WoS events ?? Obvously to be sanctioned or sponsored by Stu.
I still think we nead real interaction with the undecideds. A panel from WoS and others would be very persuasive Im sure.
@ JLT
Thanks man I loved your ‘defence’ of History.
Was it not the great Voltaire that said during the enlightenment period “Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation’ (We look to Scotland for all our ideas on civilisation).”
As mentioned before the ‘Queen’ and ‘King’ of Scots was due to the declaration of Arbroath claiming that the people of Scotland are sovereign and not their monarch. That they reserve the right to remove them if they see fit. This is indeed why the Lord’s prayer in Scotland does not use “forgive us our trespass..” as the land was thought to belong to all Scots.
The Arbroath declaration was written to the pope (who was then akin to the United Nations and had the final say as to wether countries were excommunicated or not). What it stated was that ‘we the people’ own the land and no one else. That the people will decide who runs the place, but the land is forever owned by the people. (How we got to where we are now is downright criminal)
After independence, (our second chance) we should get this fact sorted out and never allow anyone to usurp this ancient right and belief. This must be made cast-iron in law that Scotland belongs to the people to avoid Scotland losing another 300 years of marking time or indeed going backwards.
Oh and I should say what a great post by Andrew aka Kininvie
If there’s one thing that shows the effect of the Treaty of Union had on Scotland its the population.
Before 1707 Scotland’s population was about 1.5 million – England’s was about 4.5 million – a factor of 3 bigger.
Today Scotland’s population is about 5 million – England’s population is about 53 million – around a factor of 11 bigger.
Its a clear indication that Westminster has kept the lion’s share of money and resources for England for the past 300 years; if the Union was at all equal for those years, Scotland’s population would still be a third of England’s. i.e. Scotland’s population today would be around 18 million!!!
“O/T – Since there have been some great nights of discussion noted on the referendum. Isn’t there an opportunity for WoS events ?? Obvously to be sanctioned or sponsored by Stu.
I still think we nead real interaction with the undecideds. A panel from WoS and others would be very persuasive Im sure.”
Would love to organise some sort of event. Been thinking about it since the rally. Open to suggestions.
I have also enjoyed this thread, and the great article ATL. One thing struck me a bit.
I find it mildly ironic that the instances you give of Scotland’s achievements are all after 1707! And that’s the unspoken implication of the BT campaign, isn’t it – that within the Union you can achieve so much, but outside it, you’ll just squabble and be poor.
I would agree there’s plenty to be proud of before the union too. However, the 18th century was a time of great progress so it’s natural that was the time the thinkers came to the fore. There’s another point I read somewhere, which might be relevant.
After 1707, Scotland no longer had a seat of government. Very few people could be active in politics and if that was your ambition you had to go to London. So what about the best minds in Scotland, the ones who might have gone into government in a normal independent country? This theory suggests they went into academia and related pursuits instead. We simply had a higher proportion of our real thinkers doing real thinking, because a political or top administrative career was denied to them.
Rev:
Your regular contributors would know the ropes for this and I know a convention would not be cool … but, some kind of night to attract the undecideds ? A debate of some kind ? or series to the run up to the referendum (North, South, East West) / (Saltire events).
I just think this is the next phase to take WoS to the folks not online. Good publicity ?
Re Scottish inventions:
During the wars of independence King Robert didn’t have the manpower, the provisions or the heavy siege engines needed to invest the numerous Scottish castles and towns in the possession of English garrisons. A Scot came up with a simple but ingenious invention that could overcome a castle’s defences, and yet only needed one man to carry it. Its first recorded use was in 1312.
This brilliantly designed contraption was to be put to great use by King Robert, Thomas Randolph and James Douglas. No more need for siege engines, extra troops and hard to come by provisions. English held castles fell because of it. It was considered a dastardly cunning and wondrous invention by the English invaders. Never had such an ingenious device been used against them before – It was a rope ladder.
Folks, I just wasted 35 minutes that could have been more productively utilised, tidying up some really atrociously-formatted posts in this thread and others. I’ve asked half-a-dozen times, but can we PLEASE take a little more care over how things look? I’m not talking about spelling or grammar, but about huge screeds of text with no line breaks, or dozens of line breaks where there shouldn’t be any, or all sorts of crazy-arsed indentations and multiple punctuation marks. I can’t believe some people are looking at how their posts appear onscreen and thinking “Yeah, I’m happy with that”.
I’m sorry, but it matters. Not only will nobody read YOUR post if it’s an eye-tormenting mess, but more importantly a huge number of people will turn off and not read anything after it. It’s like going up some carpeted stairs and suddenly encountering a big puddle of vomit or an enormous dog-turd: some people will hold their nose and step over it, but a lot of others will just turn round, go back down and leave. Me, I’m the poor schmuck with the dustpan and brush. We all live here.
As for [cite] tags, after a dozen requests my patience is exhausted. From tonight, if your post has [cite] tags in it, it’s getting deleted. No questions, no debate, straight into the trash the minute I see one. We have so many readers and comments now that I just can’t afford the time to make everything presentable AND write posts. Help me out a bit.
I’m going to put up a post with the “rules”. They’ll be few and simple, but I’m tired of a few folk posting in a way that undermines other people’s comments, because so many of the comments are brilliant and deserve better.
Why does everybody always overlook the fierce and brilliant Sir Andrew Murray (Moray / de Moray) joint Gaurdian of Scotland. Now there was a proud Scot !
Now theres a name for the events /debates Rev !
Hi Morag, maybe a bit like the Jews, who had neither land nor power, turned to the arts, and just about everything else. I read somewhere they, as a group, have received 25% of all Nobel prizes.
How’s the badgers.
Why Yes, Tranter, a insult to us on the BBC 30odd years ago, and Runrig.
@Rev – Hear, hear. Well said.
Stu :
Would you consider an invite for Mr Bateman to a panel for a WoS sponsored debate ?
@ianbrotherhood,
The questions you ask, and my responses to them are probably better discussed over a pint (or several) than through the written word. I can’t articulate them with any facility. So lets get together – you have my e-mail.
But what you ask about duty…well, it’s a slippery concept, and far too easily invoked. Do we have a duty to our families – To our friends – Not to let them down? Do we have a duty to a cause? – To a country? To abstracts such as God and King?
There were thousands of young men who fought and died in Flanders because they saw it as their duty. Now, we look back with pity and horror…but had we lived then, how would we have felt? I can’t answer that.
It’s a tough question you raise….maybe a chaser to go with the pints?
I’ll be in touch. Or you will be.
@Rev – Had a few thoughts on WoS event but too knackered to put them down this morning. How about a post to discuss?
“Would you consider an invite for Mr Bateman to a panel for a WoS sponsored debate ?”
Absolutely.
On Wings Gig :
Oh well I tried; hope you have better luck with the regulars Rev, who might bite – still agree, I think it would be a good idea though to have an event.
Guess folks like to stick to the threads; sorry it was just an idea.
“On Wings Gig :
Oh well I tried; hope you have better luck with the regulars Rev, who might bite – still agree, I think it would be a good idea though to have an event.
Guess folks like to stick to the threads; sorry it was just an idea.”
Huh?
One thing for me that came out of that RIC event in Glasgow is that there is a great thirst for information. If you run an event try and get an economist on your panel.
Apologies Stu;
I meant I thought it was just you and me conversing (didn’t think anyone else was picking up – thought it was still History focussed)
Bateman would be great feature.
Wings gig
Bill C’s right – Probably needs a post to get the troops going
@kininvie-
Cheers for that. I’ll have to check whether or not I have your e-mail address. (I take it we were in touch re the Horseshoe meet?)
Anyway, pints and chasers sound fine, anytime, anywhere. I’m sure the opportunity will present itself – sooner the better, and perhaps it’ll coincide with whatever Rev’s planning.
The whole ‘duty’ question troubles me. If I came on this site and started banging-on about any of us having a ‘duty’ to Scotland, I’d expect to be given a hard-time as some kind of Uber-Nat, and would probably deserve it. But the more I discover about the material you covered in your article, and the more I read from other posters who have spent years – nay decades – researching what’s gone before, the harder it is to suppress real anger. That anger may have more to do with shame at being exposed as ignorant, but whatever the cause, the anger is every bit as real as the unpleasant facts we’re all having to face.
God almighty, it’s a steep learning curve, to be sure, to be sure…
Suggestions for an ‘event’? A Burns Night WoS Disco in central Glasgow, and you have to dress up as someone identifiably ‘Scottish’, even if they aren’t really…there ye go. It’s a winner. (Bags me Rod Stewart.)
It sounded like a nice idea at first, but any fancy dress parties or discos will be happening without me I’m afraid.
Discos and fancy dress yes please!!
I say again, nay, thrice! do I call for a disco and/or a fancy-dress party.
‘If you build it, they will come…’
I’ll go as Harry Lauder, his stage character I mean, maybe.
BTW What’s a ‘cite’ tag, when it’s at home.
Derek Bateman would make an awesome Ozzy Osbourne (okay, he’s not Scottish but he was very fond of The Apollo, so that must count) and if he goes, might Morag reconsider?
a rich history – one true great
http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=3141&search_term=scottish&search_join_type=AND&search_fuzzy=yes
(Joe Strummer (of The Clash) his granny came from Raasay)
Ken:
A cite tag is something that appears on the Rev’s master screen when you copy/paste the whole of a previous comment including the italicised ‘xxxx says’ So don’t EVER copy that bit, because for some reason which none of the rest of us quite understand, it drives our leader into a frenzy and causes him to issue threats of fire, brimstone, and eternal damnation. So just don’t do it if you wish to live.
I hope no one minds me mentioning that the Romans invaded Caledonia on at least 3 occasions and were sent packing with casualties in the tens of thousands according to their own sources.
Our love of freedom goes back a long way!
I used to post more often here but have been steadily cutting it down. Full marks to Kininvie for this thought-provoking and literate article. I’m far too busy reading, and learning, to post anything as erudite as the majority of contributors here. Mair power te ye’s!
On a possible “event”? I’m up for that! I don’t do costumes or karaoke though.
Hi Rev,
Would love to organise some sort of event. Been thinking about it since the rally. Open to suggestions.
—————–
Myself, DonDeefLugs and Twenty14 have talked about a wee get together roughly at the end of November – start of December (a re-visit to the Albanach and possibly a meal). I’m not talking about a full on ‘lets get hammered!’ Maybe just meet up mid-late afternoon, a few beers, maybe a meal and the non the train for about 9ish. Very civilised!
So far the now, it is just an idea; nothing concrete. Christmas is around the corner at that point, and I know that will be a factor. However, as the Rev says …all suggestions would great.
God knows what we are going to talk about though…
jlt says
“God knows what we are going to talk about though…”
know what you mean,
those long silences can be embarrassing 😉
I’ll work on the wife 😉
bubbles says
“On a possible “event”? I’m up for that! I don’t do costumes or karaoke though.”
Dammit I was going to suggest a 1660’s singalong night 🙁
morag says
“It sounded like a nice idea at first, but any fancy dress parties or discos will be happening without me I’m afraid.”
I wouldn’t be seen dead in a silly hat!
Calgacus(sounds roman to me?)says
“the Romans invaded Caledonia on at least 3 occasions and were sent packing with casualties in the tens of thousands according to their own sources.
Our love of freedom goes back a long way!”
Ha a local man wrote in the (local ) paper (who knew)
and said that the desire for independence was “ephemeral”
I directed him to the declaration of Arbrouth which as I pointed out “preceded his beloved Labour party by several centuries”,
he didn’t reply.
ianbrotherhood says
“might Morag reconsider?”
What? has Morag got a wee hing fur Derek Bateman?
lets see then,
Derek Derek there’s someone here who wants a word 🙂
Good article. Going off slightly at a tangent, when thinking about ancestors, of the claim that about 10% of men in central Scotland are descended from Niall of the 9 hostages and that most European groups have a common ancestor if you go back just 1000 years.
Calgacus.
My uncle was in Rome many years ago on business and in-between meetings went to a tour in a Rome museum.
The tour guide covered the Roman empire on a map. Scotland appeared in black. One alert tourist questioned why this was.
The tour guide said it was because the Scots were too fierce and couldn’t be beaten; they were crazy people.
She said “In the end they just built a big wall and kept out their way!”.
O/T
The Make Believers Documentary featuring a good deal about dirty tricks in Quebec and propaganda more generally re the debate.
Andrew Leslie / kininvie
Would be interested in knowing more about your Hungarian ancestors as I know someone with the same connections. But I don’t want to clog up Wings over Scotland discussing it. If Rev Stu can facilitate, would be helpful
Thanks
Great read, Andrew.
My family also has a long history. They originated in the Kingdom of Fife and are now found throughout the globe. It has been mentioned on this blog before that Scottish History was seldom taught in our schools; in fact, I had to read up on our country’s past after I left school.
Our history inspired me….it inspired me to become a successful fantasy author. Nowhere else can you find a country with a past so steeped in political intrigue, dark tragedy, glorious battles and humiliating defeats. I even based my novels principle character on two of Scotland’s most able battle commanders the Black Douglas and The Marquis of Montrose.
Yes, Scottish History us, and it will definitely continue to inspire me for many more years. 🙂
O?T but this is towards the end of this Blog post
Left Foot Forward are back on the old Chestnut of conflating the SNP and the Tories, this time to do with renewable energy.
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/10/snp-in-cahoots-with-the-tories/
If they had any brains they would be dangerous.
@rabb
‘She said “In the end they just built a big wall and kept out their way!”.’
Twa big walls!
The lack of teaching of the proper history of the Romans in Scotland is disgraceful, as is the lack of media coverage. Any TV shows about “Roman Britain” or what have you will almost certainly stop at Hadrian’s Wall. Well, the Romans didn’t. All of southern Scotland was fully occupied for years. The first land “limit” of the Roman empire (likely anywhere in the world) was along the Gask Ridge, and there are numerous forts, roads and camps all over Scotland below that line. There are also forts north of it, and Scotland has more Roman marching camps (left by the army on the move) than anywhere else. The reasons most often given for the Romans not conquering all of modern Scotland are that either they didn’t want anything here, or that the inhabitants (or landscape) were too tough for them. Both of those are nonsense, and the true picture is vastly more complicated (and interesting). Sorry for maintaining the O/T, but it’s a subject of huge importance to me.
Just once, I’d like to see Bettany Hughes striding about Moray, all windswept and dramatic and talking about the Romans.
(http://www.theromangaskproject.org.uk/index.html <- for interested parties)
All of the British Isles was Celtic before the Romans arrived so it has puzzled me on many occasions (usually when watching Time Team) as to why the English are so obsessed with the Romans and their bloody villas. The Celts had a thriving culture and were doing pretty well on their own thank you very much. That was before the Romans forced them towards the extremities in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, IOM, Cornwall and Brittany. After the Romans left the Saxons filed the power vacum and the rest is well, history!
I sometimes think that the English are in denial of the Celtic history of their country,
Andrew, thanks for a very interesting and enjoyable post and the links. I spent a good couple of hours last night just following the links to see where they led me. Wonderful stuff.
Exactly. Also, it’s important to remember that the British Isles were inhabited by many tribes, with sometimes huge regional variations and certainly not by a unified culture as some Brit-nats will sometimes try to claim. The English royalty hasn’t descended from their Celtic roots, which is probably ultimately why they’ve not been so keen to focus on that part of their heritage over the centuries.
An event – great idea. But not a disco though, a ceilidh!!
@Lianachan
I didn’t read your comment before posting mine (honest!) I don’t deny the Roman history in Scotland there are the remains of a Roman Bathhouse near where I live. Leadhills is an example of Roman history in Scotland that is not often mentioned.
I see “The Celts” as more of a cultural group rather than a racial group. It may be because what unites them is the beautiful art and craftsmanship that they left behind and is still respected today.
Lianachan
Thanks for that link , coming originally from Perth I found it very interesting .
I was brought up in the Letham area of Perth and as a teenager used to wander over a lot of that area without realising its historical importance .
The only bit my friends and I knew about was the roman fort at Bertha .
Kininvie / JLT
Many thanks for bringing up an article and comments which truely show what Scotland and the Scots have achieved in history and that we have no reason whatsoever to be ashamed of our contributions to the world.
For me it’s not a question of before 1707 or after 1707 but of a continuous series of innovation throughout our history. A signatur on a piece of paper doesn’t suddenly make us more inventive, the brainpower and the quest for knowledge was there before.
One aspect that should also be brought forward, is that not everything after 1707 was invented inside the square box framework of the Union, many Scots left or were driven out of Scotland and first outside were able to develope their talents. Whether it was conquering the new world or inventing things, just as much was achieved outwith Scotland as within the new UK homeland.
You just can’t keep a good Scot down which is why I see a very bright future for an independent Scotland.
@The Man in the Jar
That’s exactly right, there’s no genetic race of Celts. “Celtic” is used to describe a family of languages, and a group of similar cultures. It’s not even the case that people who spoke Celtic languages necessarily made “Celtic” art, and they certainly wouldn’t have considered themselves as one big homogeneous group.
@Silverytay
You’re more than welcome. I’m glad you knew about the Roman fort at Perth, it’s good to see knowledge surviving locally despite national neglect. It’s a pity there’s not much there to see. Head to Greenloaning and have a look at Ardoch Roman fort – it’s extremely impressive indeed.
Ianbrotherhood.
Ha ha ha …cheers Mate. Thanks for the coconut. Will use it in a very good way by throwing it at either Lamont, Sarwar, Curran or Baillie!
There …another good old Scottish tradition. If a member of our establishment or Parliament ever took (cough) the urine, then they had stones (as well as doo-doo) thrown at them! Good old fashioned Scottish punishment.
cheers again!
John King,
If you fancy joining up for the wee soiree, mate, then that would be great. I have absolute no doubt, that many others will come along if it goes ahead (if we are saying, lets go to the Albanach. Everyone should know where the pub is after the big rally, so no need to worry about directions.)
Be funny as hell though if we did turn up in our hundreds! Can you imagine the Albanach staff …they would be stunned and perplexed all at the same time, wondering what the hell is going on!
And yes …those long silences. We might talk about football …or Eastenders …or just maybe …politics. Who knows …(sigh)
A wee book plug. “The Mark of the Scots” by Duncan a. Bruce (Birch Lane Press)
Mr. Bruce is an American but you can always skip the chapter “Scots in the Baseball Hall of Fame” bit. Otherwise a good read.
Something that struck me when reading it and it goes into some detail on the subject is the involvement of Scots in the opening up of the frontiers of the American continent and the founding and administration of the brand new United States of America and Canada for that matter.
I mean it is not like we are to wee to poor or to stupid to run a country is it?
History, well that was then and this is now, and we Scots still appear to have a different concept of community than our neighbours to the South.
Regards a get together, a debate followed by quality Scots music, old and new would suit me. Fancy dress and guys shouting down a microphone and playing two chords on electric guitars, no thanks.
Taranaich mentioned Duns Scotus; one of the most important thinkers and philosophers of the Mediaeval period. I’m told that the expression ‘dunce’ was derived from his name. If this is true, is it another example of the deliberate downgrading of our national contribution to culture?
Lianachan et al
I think the important difference about the Roman occupation of what we now call Scotland is that is what it was, an occupation not a pacification. Hence all the defensive forts and marching forts as well as some of the largest defensive walls in the Roman world matched only, I believe, by those in Northern Europe.
Oh and BTW Galcacus is not a Roman name. It is the name attributed by Tacitus the Roman historian to the leader of the Celts at Mons Graupius and is of Celtic origin meaning swordsman or warrior.
The problem with the roman fort at Ardoch is that it is in the hands of the Arabic owners of the estate in which it stands and through neglect the archaeology is being ruined.
@John King.
Calgacus was the name of a Pict who fought the Romans at the battle of Mons Graupius in 85 a.d. according to the Roman historian Tacitus.
By the way, point of order but the mouse-over caption for the picture of Queen Margaret says she established the ferry across the “River Forth”. I think that should be the “Firth of Forth” as it ceases to be a river somewhere just down from Stirling.
At least it wasn’t called the Forth Estuary, as West Lothian Council and Transport Scotland seem keen on that egregious anglicisation. I suppose the latter did that to allow them to name the Forth Estuary Transport Authority with its cheesy acronym.
And I’ve even seen it blood-boilingly labelled as the Firth of Forth Estuary – mind you, that was by southern colleagues who also thought that the correct spelling of ‘bothy’ was ‘boffy’…. ejits.
@rabb
Aye that about sums it up 🙂
A related OT.
Just switched on the tv and was flicking through the channels. I happened to catch the end of a bit on The Wright Stuff on Channel 5, on the tv review bit. Seems like there’s some “the truth about Braveheart” type program on in the next week. The reviewer made some comment about Wallace being “the greatest ("Tractor" - Ed) of all time”, but he was actually hung for stealing beer. Channel 5 +1 is on channel 44 on freeview. I reckon if folks are interested you catch it just before midday on channel 44 to be sure to see the full tv review section. The tv review section usually covers the last 15 minutes of the Wright Stuff.
It may be nothing, but thought I’d mention it anyway if anyone wanted to see for themselves considering the current threads on Scottish history.
I didn’t know anybody in Scotland still watched The Wright Stuff after this:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/murdered-stornoway-teenagers-dad-in-fury-1088861
O/T a reply regards Better Together and their misclaim about Scottish Govt using funds for referendum
Dear
Your complaint about Better Together
Thank you for contacting the Advertising Standards Authority. The ASA is a self-regulatory, non-statutory body and we have been advised that, under the freedom of speech provisions in the Human Rights Act 1998, we are unable to regulate ads that intend to affect voters taking part in the democratic process. As such the Code has since contained the following rule, removing such material from our remit. Rule 7.1 of the CAP advertising Code states:
Claims in marketing communications, whenever published or distributed, whose principal function is to influence voters in a local, regional, national or international election or referendum are exempt from the Code.
Given this, I’m afraid we can’t pursue your complaint further, but it may be that the Electoral Commission might be able to advise you further:
The Electoral Commission
Lothian Chambers
59-63 George IV Bridge
Edinburgh EH1 1RN
Tel: 0131 225 0200
Email: infoscotland@electoralcommission.org.uk
I am sorry we are unable to help on this occasion, but thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with us.
Kind regards
Sam Wilson
Complaints Executive
Direct line 020 7492 2172
Advertising Standards Authority
Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn
London WC1V 6QT
Telephone 020 7492 2222
http://www.asa.org.uk
Follow us on twitter: @ASA_UK
Legal, decent, honest and truthful
@desimond
Pretty much what I thought they’d say, at the time we were all debating it, and the EC will just tell you they have no control until the 16 week period.
I do wonder what our future sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters will think looking back in decades to come about the twelve generation blip in Scotland’s history who allowed themselves to be governed by others.
I really do hope we are the generation who put a stop to this.
Just saw the repeat.
Pile o’pish springs to mind and also ” then they laugh at you” comes to mind too.
“jlt says
“God knows what we are going to talk about though…”
know what you mean,
those long silences can be embarrassing 😉
I’ll work on the wife 😉
“
“Lianachan
Thanks for that link , coming originally from Perth I found it very interesting .
I was brought up in the Letham area of Perth and as a teenager used to wander over a lot of that area without realising its historical importance .
The only bit my friends and I knew about was the roman fort at Bertha .
“
“A wee book plug. “The Mark of the Scots” by Duncan a. Bruce (Birch Lane Press)
Mr. Bruce is an American but you can always skip the chapter “Scots in the Baseball Hall of Fame” bit. Otherwise a good read.
Something that struck me when reading it and it goes into some detail on the subject is the involvement of Scots in the opening up of the frontiers of the American continent and the founding and administration of the brand new United States of America and Canada for that matter.
I mean it is not like we are to wee to poor or to stupid to run a country is it?
“
“A related OT.
Just switched on the tv and was flicking through the channels. I happened to catch the end of a bit on The Wright Stuff on Channel 5, on the tv review bit. Seems like there’s some “the truth about Braveheart” type program on in the next week. The reviewer made some comment about Wallace being “the greatest ("Tractor" - Ed) of all time”, but he was actually hung for stealing beer. Channel 5 +1 is on channel 44 on freeview. I reckon if folks are interested you catch it just before midday on channel 44 to be sure to see the full tv review section. The tv review section usually covers the last 15 minutes of the Wright Stuff.
It may be nothing, but thought I’d mention it anyway if anyone wanted to see for themselves considering the current threads on Scottish history. “
“@desimond
Pretty much what I thought they’d say, at the time we were all debating it, and the EC will just tell you they have no control until the 16 week period.
“
“I do wonder what our future sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters will think looking back in decades to come about the twelve generation blip in Scotland’s history who allowed themselves to be governed by others.
I really do hope we are the generation who put a stop to this.
“
Well, I’m glad everyone paid so much attention to my post last night about formatting.
Are you going to make me do it, readers? Are you going to MAKE me start simply deleting comments that are laid out like a dog just puked them onto the screen, so that people who take the extra two seconds of effort to do theirs properly get them read and so that I don’t have to spend half my day cleaning up the mess when I should be writing?
Because right now I’m THIS close to turning this place into Newsnet frigging Scotland, moderation-wise.
PUT SPACES BETWEEN YOUR PARAGRAPHS, FOR GOD’S FUCKING SAKE. LAST WARNING.
@Major
FETA 🙂 What a hoot, nearly fell off my chair.
“Claims in marketing communications, whenever published or distributed, whose principal function is to influence voters in a local, regional, national or international election or referendum are exempt from the Code.”
Hmm. As I recall, the entire point was that the leaflet in question was expressly a solicitation for money rather than an exhortation to vote, and as such the one thing that DID fall within the ASA’s remit. Might be worth giving him a ring and noting that.
I got the exact same ASA reply as desimond.
Disappointing as I specifically raised the point about seeking to raise funds on a false premise. If that is not false advertising I am not sure what is. The extract I sent them contained nothing about voting (nor did I raise this as an issue in my complaint).
I’ll reply to ASA commenting on their failure to take any action.
I have replied and specifically queried the ASA’s precise definition of “influence”:
“Claims in marketing communications, whenever published or distributed, whose principal function is to influence voters … …. exempt from the Code”.
It seems they are expanding “influence” beyond voting intention. I am not convinced that this is what the original purpose of the exemption was. It seems illogical. The better together leaflet was not about voting it was a request for funds. If this is true there seems to be a bit of a hole in advertising standards.
my iPad doesn’t seem to work too well with WordPress Stu. I know my formatting is decent enough but only because I take a bit more care when using the iPad rather than my Mac.
Just sayin’.
Re. The ASA. What a country we live in when the one thing the Advertising Standards Authority CANNOT interfere with is the single most important thing anyone living in a democracy is required to do. I despair sometimes.
@TMITJ
I’d go further and say ‘denial of Celtic heritage’ is a mainstay of the English origin mythos at least of the Anglo-centrics at chattering class level. i.e. Anything but Celtic.
Indeed, there is even growing support there for the contention that there ever was anything which can be called ‘Celtic’ anywhere, though Prof. James and converts still have a helluva long way to go to convince the rest of the World that the ‘C’ word should be banned.
If you really want to push the button of Anglo-Nats who harbour some ethno-purity type allusions, just mention that it is by no means settled whether the Cimbri (who most regard as having occupied the Jutland peninsula and hinterland and from whence the Angles, Jutes and Saxons subsequently came to Britain) were a Celtic or Germanic people originally. Even though there are two very influential nationalisms (German and English) who would rather they were Germanic.
@Lianachan: The first land “limit” of the Roman empire (likely anywhere in the world) was along the Gask Ridge, and there are numerous forts, roads and camps all over Scotland below that line.
Glad you brought this up, actually. I actually think the fact the Romans put so much effort into Scotland speaks MORE of our nation than just walling it up as “too much bother.” At its highest extent, the entire Roman garrison of Britain was 52,000. How much of that was in the lower regions of Scotland? 25,000! And that’s just up to the Gask Ridge, barely even a third of Scotland’s landmass!
There are also forts north of it, and Scotland has more Roman marching camps (left by the army on the move) than anywhere else.
And Wales has more castles per square mile than any other country. Just goes to show, you cannae keep a guid Celt doon!
@Midgehunter: For me it’s not a question of before 1707 or after 1707 but of a continuous series of innovation throughout our history. A signatur on a piece of paper doesn’t suddenly make us more inventive, the brainpower and the quest for knowledge was there before.
One aspect that should also be brought forward, is that not everything after 1707 was invented inside the square box framework of the Union, many Scots left or were driven out of Scotland and first outside were able to develope their talents. Whether it was conquering the new world or inventing things, just as much was achieved outwith Scotland as within the new UK homeland.
Absolutely, though it does help to silence silly suggestions about Scotland being irrelevant before an arbitrary date.
@David Smith: Taranaich mentioned Duns Scotus; one of the most important thinkers and philosophers of the Mediaeval period. I’m told that the expression ‘dunce’ was derived from his name. If this is true, is it another example of the deliberate downgrading of our national contribution to culture?
It could be, but I think it’s also possible that it arose from sarcasm. “Nimrod,” for example: it’s a word that is used these days to mean fool or dimwit, but it’s used to denigrate someone who thinks they’re strong and mighty like the Biblical Nimrod – a mighty warrior-king known for his martial and hunting prowess. So calling someone a Dunce after Duns Scotus could be like sarcastically calling someone “Einstein.”
@Chic McGregor: If you really want to push the button of Anglo-Nats who harbour some ethno-purity type allusions, just mention that it is by no means settled whether the Cimbri (who most regard as having occupied the Jutland peninsula and hinterland and from whence the Angles, Jutes and Saxons subsequently came to Britain) were a Celtic or Germanic people originally. Even though there are two very influential nationalisms (German and English) who would rather they were Germanic.
Tee-hee!