The judges’ decision
Posted on
September 06, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Last night’s debate, as seen by studio pundits Bernard Ponsonby and Colin Mackay.
We can only commend STV on its generous supplies of green-room hospitality.
Good job, Bernard and Colin, keep it up!
Just clicked in to watch the debate/pundit remarks online, the advert before it starts uses Starship’s Nothing’s Gonna Stop Us Now.
Indeed!
The debate was shockingly bad on all accounts. The presenter had no or little control over both Sarwar and Sturgeon, the so called expert panel must have been watching a different programme from myself and this was actually not a debate at all.
I would give Nicola Sturgeon a boring 1-0 win on this one based on her final few minutes when she was able to actually make Sarwar look like an idiot. He was shocking, he was reading from a pre-pared script that he had obviously been told not to deviate from, although I suspect he might have a sore arse this morning over the bedroom tax comment. His constant shouting over Sturgeon was really really annoying but he failed to answer one single question, although Nicola failed to land a real knockout punch.
If this is as good at it’s going to get we are all in trouble and turn out on the day might put the result in danger as people decide they want nothing to do with politics in Scotland full stop let alone the referendum.
mr sarwars father must have been very important in the slab party, hell of alot of clout. to get his son into the positions he holds in slab is quite remarkable i think.
How can you “draw” a debate whyou all you do is evade and deflect. Don’t answer a single question and your debating technique is based solely on being aggressive and rude?
Watched the show on youtube this morning. Have calmed doon noo sufficiently tae respond. First, Nicola Sturgeon was OUTSTANDING last night. anas anwar had one intention – to totally disrupt the debate, to do his damdest to shut Nicola up and spout lies, spread fear misinform and confuse. I now know that the ‘NO Campaign are aptly named – NO RESPECT NO POLICIES NO VISION NO MORALS NO TALENT NO INTEGRITY AND NO DEBATE at all costs. He was outrageously incompetent and aggressive. Then there were the 2 MALE commentators – what debate were they watching? Nicola was up against 3 men – one purely to fight with her and the other two winding them up, judging them egging them on and then gloating the anuas got her feathers ruffled as if it was a good thing. What was a good thing was that even when she did start to get a bit pissed off (and who didnae?) she was still courteous and respectful and still responded to almost every point he made and answered almost every question which in itself was remarkable given the level of interruption and appalling adjudication from John MacKay talking of battlegrounds and crossing swords? A Testosterone Democracy right enough! (http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/09/03/testosterone-democracy/) anas deflected denied ignored every question and didnae deviate one iota fae his script even? And what was he doing waving around a TOP SECret government document oaper for? It widv been fab if Nicola had thought about the TOP SECRET McCrone report to respond with. Grrr! Appalling state of affairs. Women are marginalised in this debate or should I say debacle. We are led to believe it is the SNP who are turning women off. This disgraceful programme 3 men 1 woman and a brainless toothe nameless barbie wi nae opinions allowed. Shite state ay affairs right enough. Turned me right off. Can only hope it will have done the YES Campaign much goodd. anwar was a 1st class Dick!
Oh dear didn’t make it until the end, the last straw was A Sarwar saying to N Sturgeon re bedroom tax, £50 million and ‘mitigation’
(You won’t commit to do anything Nicola because) …………
“Any Tory pain is a referendum gain”
I suppose some twit at the Labour HQ spin factory gets paid to write such bollocks.
Without a leg to stand on, Anas proved to be a lame duck.
If the opposing person never actually says anything of substance it is virtually impossible to land a knock out blow. All one can do is highlight they are saying nothing and walk away with integrity intact.
For the panel to call it a draw is kind in the extreme..to the point of charity. I absolutely loathe people who talk over the other speaker in a debate. To do it once in the heat of a moment is forgiveable to use it as a strategy to cover ones own inadequacies is unforgiveable. Anas cannot debate, he doesn’t have the necessary tools to debate or the necessary authority to deviate from his party line (well he did and how the deal with that will be interesting) Will Cameron hone in for the kill on Milliband and to hell with Better Together?
Its rare that you see two politicians go at it quite like that, for that reason, I quite enjoyed it. Unfortunately Sturgeon did get dragged down by Sarwar – who was pretty awful as I think most expected he would be.
No idea why Labour/Better Not agreed to put him up, he’s a terrible politician anyway. I say that, I actually do have an idea – mostly because Labour seem to value vacuous soundbites over anything with even the merest sensation of a relationship with actual fact or substance. I think Sarwar is the best example of that kind of politician.
He was so bad, he made it seem as if Michael Moore actually has a point.
Poor as I may think Sarwar is at debating I would not be against Better Together using him for all remaining debates…how can they refuse if they think he did so well 🙂
The thing that gets me is that from time to time, Bernard appears to have a downer on the SNP, but at other times, like his questioning of UKIP (non)entities, or even that nice Mr Osborne, he appears to simply relishing tearing folk a new one from time to time irregardless, (yes, I know), of what colour flag they fly…
You can’t have a Yes stall if there’s no BT stall; you can’t have a debate if we choose not to engage in a debate.
Anyone else see a pattern developing?
Rev,
Intrigued by your Ian Smart tweet – what’s he on about now?
Hi, I haven’t commented much before and this is my first comment on this site however I do read it everyday. I have not seen this programme yet (tonight’s entertainment), but from what I can gather on the net today my old mum’s saying comes to mind……give a man enough rope and he will hang himself. Sounds like Mr Sarwar has managed to do the whole job in one programme!!
This so called debate last night was one of the worst “adverts” for either party!! They both looked like a Couple of kids arguing over a sweetie. The first half was an obvious win for Nicola Sturgeon, but that debacle in part 2 was a disgrace!! They should both be made to come out today and apologise to the viewing public for it. Nicola came down to Anas Sarwar’s level and neither person could actually be heard. It was just two empty vessels trying to make the most noise!! This is the most important decisions this nation will be faced with and we had to listen to these two weans!! This would send most undecideds running for the hills and thinking why bother at all!! Thought it impossible but they just made Westminster look appealing!! Why change anything to get the same old rubbish!!
Actually, what we need isn’t an article about the debate, but rather an article about how the MSM have shut down debate about the debate.
lmao
@ianb
The Bill W/Sturgeon remark I’d reckon, and on the subject of Twitter there’s now a spoof National Collective account to add to the Rev Stuart Campbell one.
I’m relieved only a minority of voters have anything to do with Twitter.
in my day you respected women,,,,i must be getting an old bastard.
Yes as a debate it was very very poor, and yes it is very difficult to have a debate when only one is actually trying to debate.
Sarwars behaviour however was very deliberate and he fully intended to drag it down to a rammy, he or his adviser recognised that in a real debate he would be outclassed by Sturgeon, also that tactically bettertogether dont want a debate they believe they are doing fine without one.
My real disappointment was with STV who allowed this very blatant tactic from Sarwar to go unchecked. Perhaps next time they should control it better perhaps by muting a microphone when a person continually speaks over the other.
The best summary I saw of the debate was someone saying its influence on voters would have been to make Yesers more Yes, Noers more No and undecided even more undecided. Now who gains from that scenario?
At least the Black Knight in the cartoon turned up armed with the tools of battle. When it comes to a battle of the mind poor Mr Sarwar just doesn’t seem to have the necessary equipment.
ianbrotherhood,
Afaik he said Nicola Sturgeon was an apologist for domestic violence. Who knows whats going on in his brain.
Two stood up for bt, Two knocked back a pace.Next please. 2 analysts beggar belief.Ye kidna stand and utter that XXX.
Verbal diarrhoea springs to mind, when Sarwar takes to the airwaves. The man talks a lot of SH1t.
Off topic but a wee plug for the Scottish Independence Convention’s After Party for those attending the Rally.
http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.org/news/the-after-party-march-and-rally-for-independence.aspx
Bruce Hosie (12:48)
“If this is as good at it’s going to get we are all in trouble and turn out on the day might put the result in danger as people decide they want nothing to do with politics in Scotland full stop let alone the referendum.”
That is probably the plan!
There were no winners last night, but the biggest losers were the viewers who had tuned in to learn something about the debate, and STV, who will have lost viewers like myself who prefer debate to pantomime.
John Mackay was such a poor referee, I expect to see him officiating at Pittodrie every week until the end of the season.
“The best summary I saw of the debate was someone saying its influence on voters would have been to make Yesers more Yes, Noers more No and undecided even more undecided. Now who gains from that scenario?”
Hmm don’t agree Anas Sarwar was so bad and Sturgeon completely exposed the argument that Labour would shelter Scotland if only we voted for them again.
The debate was poor and didn’t clarify the situation one iota but what was completely exposed was the vacuousness of Labour’s argument that they are the alternative to Labour and the Tories. Lets be honest Nicola one that argument at a canter and exposed just hoiw ineffective and poor of argument the no campaign are.
Unfortunately hardly anyone watched it relatively therefore going to make little impact.
i think more should be made of the rank opinions of the 2 experts. ponsonby and the other guy. how can anyone respect their opinions now ?
What struck me last night was the number of Labour-supporting and even union-supporting people who were agreeing that Anas was simply dire. If they can see it, why not Ponsonby?
i think the behaviour of anti independence politicions will bring out yes voters in our hordes,
If Twitter is an indicator, the YEs will welcome more Undecided into their camp after last nighst debate. Another point to be made is well done for the YES Campaign for once again resisting the easy option of going negative or personal. When i heard millionaire Anas start to quote Nicolas income then I knew it was clear the NO Campaign have nothing to offer and no new strategy.
Even Labour party supporters were criticising Anus Sarwar. That says it all.
To be honest I don’t mind Ponsonby. I suspect his comments were more to do with the fact it’s wasn’t a debate, thanks to Sarwar’s hijacking ploy. He was hardly going to say it was dire we (STV) should have known better than allowing that idiot on.
The good thing is the evidence was laid forth. People aren’t stupid.
some people are
But what about the pandas? Did he treaten them somehow?
im a wee bit stupid but wouldnt trust sarwar as far as i could throw jaba
@Training Day
You can’t have a Yes stall if there’s no BT stall; you can’t have a debate if we choose not to engage in a debate.
Anyone else see a pattern developing?
Yes, I said in another post on another thread that the No campaign have no intention of having any kind of debate over Scottish independence. They offer nothing in the way of positive ideas for the future of Scotland. The No campaign are effectively using scorched earth tactics, they want to deliver a No vote by any means necessary, or at least that they can get away with. Once again members of the MSM in Scotland have shown that they are willing to let them get away with the kind of behaviour we saw form Sarwar last night. We have just over a year to go till the referendum, so we should expect both the Unionists and the MSM to get much worse. They have effectively said that they think outright lying to the Scottish people is fine, if it delivers a No vote. They do not care how it is achieved, nor the damage done to the democratic process in Scotland. Are they really democrats?
@ronaldalexandermcdonald
I agree, it was a very poorly managed, researched, produced ‘debate’, and analysis. Personally the 13 minutes or so I managed to watch before giving up was embarassing. Surely we can get better media and politcal debate in an independent country, can’t be worse, can it?
There are some Labour politicians who can, unprompted, unsolicited and completely unaided, talk complete and utter shite.
And then there are the even poorer ones who have to rely on a script…
If Scotland get gubbed by Belgium tonight can we call that a draw?
Interesting that generally the comments above tend to Portray Anas as useless and a rubbish politician who shouldn’t be in post.
I believe this to underestimate him considerably and feel that dismissing him and the influence he has in Labour is a huge mistake.
I’ve met with Both Anas and Nicola quite recently on a ‘constituency matter’, something irrelevant to this debate. on that level, he’s charming, articulate, willing to help and most importantly pro-active in getting things sorted locally. That is why he’s in the party position he’s in, I imagine he’s quite easy to work with in the background. Public debate/speaking however is where he is weak as he’s maybe not quite as good at thinking on his feet or judging how what he says will come across… something we really should be grateful for.
In the event of a no vote followed by a Labour govt( yes I know) I’d expect to see him in a Cabinet position, in the Event of a yes vote he’ll almost certainly take Johan’s job and may end up FM. Underestimate at your peril people!
Actually, one of the things I found worrying was the Bernard Ponsonby piece leading up to the debate – the bit about pensions. It was the second time I had seen this piece of late. It flagged up the question of cross-border occupational pensions requiring to be fully-funded and backed this up by featuring an economist saying private companies could go instantly bankrupt the day after independence as they wouldn’t be able to fund the pension plans. This was then compounded by a old lady voicing her concerns about her old age pension, ending with her leaving a question hanging in the air about pension affordability…..” we’re such a wee country”…….
I thought this was all incredibly leading, especially as it was my understanding that the full funding of cross-border occupational pensions was a European Union requirement and had recently been abolished. Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but if I’m right, what was Bernard doing promoting that line?
3 cheers for the Hereditary Member for Glasgow Central. I can imagine the Yes vote increasing with every irritating interruption and failure to answer. He joins Cameron and Osborne on my list of those whom Yes Scotland should actually pay the fares and expenses for every outing they make into the Scottish public consciousness.
Aye, Muttley – we sometimes need to take a moment, in the midst of this MSM/BT (for they are indistinguishable) shitstorm of negativity and closing off of debate, to remind ourselves that a majority of elected representatives in our parliament support independence. I’ll just repeat that – a majority of elected representatives in our parliament support independence. It’s not the minority pastime the MSM like to portray it as.
Obviously the Ponsonby measure is being used to calculate what constitutes a ‘majority’ and a ‘minority’ as well as what constitutes a ‘draw’..
Having just watched the debate, (recorded) I would say , if the second half was a stairheidrammy, that was entirely down to the host, he stood paralysed like a rabbit in the headlights while Sarwar didn’t answer questions. it was the weakest refereeing I’ve seen.
Nicola Sturgeon was by far the most effective debater. I thought it was an excellent point she made that she wanted the responsibility but it wasn’t in the hands of the Scottish Government.
The Scottish Government is a Government, Sarwar whole approach is of being a Scottish Executive. I would put Labour in Holyrood about the level of being a County Council.
This is Anas Sarwar’s style – he just speaks rubbish, uttering a random selection of prepared soundbites.
Surely when Scotland Tonight found out that Sarwar was the nominated speaker they should have asked for someone else. Did they ask, “Anyone but Sarwar?”
The “we’ve established” list from Sarwar was the clearest part showing he was reading from a script.
Nicola Sturgeon spoke using the thinking part of her brain.
I think it is maybe a mistake for the Yes campaign and supporters to think that the TV debates will be that decisive. As we saw last night they can easily be disrupted and undermined, if people do not want to debate at all. We need to get over, or round the No campaign and MSM, speak to the electorate directly. I reckon the quality of the debate last night, or total lack of it, is a big wake up call for us.
It does worry me that this seems to be the level that the No campaign are happy to keep things at. A proper, level-headed discussion of the issues is only going to benefit the Yes side, so they are going to do their utmost to prevent that from happening. And the media are clearly not going to force them to do it.
Didn’t see the debate, but someone said elsewhere that Sarwar denied Labour had created the Bedroom Tax.
If so, that’s a lie which needs nailed – particularly coming so soon after the Daily Record’s attempt to rewrite history.
Wait though… it’s a cheap shot I know and obviously not what he meant but he really did say this didn’t he ?(38.24)
“That’s why I’m proud That under a Labour Government while you were still campaigning for independence we have child poverty and have pensioner poverty….. “
Jeannie, Hello
As Better together keep saying Scotland wouldn’t get into the EU, EU rules on anything are a bit academic. However, assuming Better Together are talking nonsense on the EU, the question of pensions and pension funding is an interesting one. Who loses out if this is an issue? There are substantial pension fund managers in Scotland whose customers are in England. More I would suggest than there are in Scotland whose pension arrangements are in England.
Perhaps common sense will prevail though
Ah John G,
The “they are both the same tactic”. It doesn’t work you know!
You can’t have a Yes stall if there’s no BT stall
A wee idea for people setting up Yes stalls at galas, etc: take along a BT stall too. (It won’t get any visitors so there’d be no need for anyone to actually staff it.)
@Albalha and pmcrek –
Thanks for helping me out. Don’t know if it’s just me, but I’m finding it harder and harder to keep up with what’s happening. Feels like, just the past few weeks (even when there aren’t that many ‘new’ posts) the comments are flying thick and fast, and the crossover over between here and Twitter is getting broader. Perhaps it’s just inevitable that we’ll all end-up there as well.
“Wait though… it’s a cheap shot I know and obviously not what he meant but he really did say this didn’t he ?(38.24)
“That’s why I’m proud That under a Labour Government while you were still campaigning for independence we have child poverty and have pensioner poverty….. “”
If we were to pick up all his gaffes we’d be hear all day. “We’ll bring back the bankers’ bonus”… “16 fewer nurses”…
Yeah….I wondered about the 16 nurses as well 🙂
@Hand and Shrimp
Waves…..lovely to meet you in person yesterday 🙂
@ianb
No I won’t be going over to Twitter, have had an invite or two, but no thanks. I pop in and have a look now and then, but will remain an occasional observer. There’s one helluva a lot of posturing and “LOOK AT ME I’M IMPORTANT.”
@ianbrotherhood
I’ve got a twitter account, but I almost never use it. I don’t think I understand twitter etiquette. I’ve made a couple of tweets, but I don’t think it worked properly. I follow the Wings twitter feed, but I’m not sure twitter’s for me.
@Rev Stu
If we were to pick up all his gaffes we’d be hear all day. “We’ll bring back the bankers’ bonus”… “16 fewer nurses”…
LOL. A score draw, aye that will be right…
@jeannie
Clandestine WoS meetings, ooooh err.
In other news, the heat death of the Universe took place today, bringing with it the total extinction of life within it, down to the last atom, leaving only an empty void of nothingness forever more.
Bernard Ponsonby and Colin McKay commented that they thought existence had got some ‘nice digs’ in at nothingness.
Albert Herring says:
6 September, 2013 at 2:41 pm
”
You can’t have a Yes stall if there’s no BT stall
A wee idea for people setting up Yes stalls at galas, etc: take along a BT stall too. (It won’t get any visitors so there’d be no need for anyone to actually staff it.)”
This is actually a fantastic idea, I’d love to see it tried at least once somewhere.
Would we see claims that Better Together is a front for the Yes campaign?
How about a one person pop up tent?
@albalha
LOL…..no mystery….just a chance encounter 🙂
This was then compounded by a old lady voicing her concerns about her old age pension, ending with her leaving a question hanging in the air about pension affordability…..” we’re such a wee country”…….
I was on holiday in the Faeroe Islands earlier this year, and one little nugget slipped in by a tour guide is that their state pension is the equivalent of £12,000 per annum. That’s nearly twice what ours is.
The Faroe Islands are about the size of Shetland and they have devo-max from Denmark. They keep all their own revenues and receive no subsidy. And they don’t even have any oil.
Wave to Jeannie
I’m proundly wearing my badge btw
Has anyone phoned up pretending to Better Together to see if they get hit by the same nonsense that they can’t have a stall because Yes Scotland haven’t asked for one.? I would be interested to see how even handedly this rule is applied. It strikes me that unless both attend hand in hand how could either side get a stall if the other hasn’t applied yet?
What a shambles that man was/is. Very reliant on props, I was wondering if he was going to pull a rabbit out of a hat at some point.
Scottish_snowboarder 😉 ‘Would we see claims that Better Together is a front for the Yes campaign?’
Thanks sir/madam, you’ve given me the best laugh of the day so far!
Sarwar was a disgrace as a politician. How can someone of that level of ineptitude possibly get into the position that he is in.
If he thinks that the debating style he showed last night is acceptable then there is something far wrong with the selection process of prospective labour MP/MSP’s.
What is more annoying is that the pundits seemed to think that the way he conducted himself was acceptable.
I have just watched the full debate that I recorded last night, and if that was a draw its the most one-sided draw I have ever seen. If you do not answer a question how can you come anywhere but last, Sarwar was acting like a spoiled child having a tantrum by refusing to play with anyone else, he just kept on screaming a load of nonsense straight out of his script, he did not answer any questions, he refused to have an actual debate.
I believe we now know why he’s Lamont’s deputy, he also can only work from a script and yell sound bites. Well done Nicola an easy 2 – 0 win against both opponent’s so far, if that’s the best they can do they have no chance, bring on Lamont, Darling, McDougall, Rennie and Davidson you will wipe the floor with them.
Vote YES, Vote Scotland.
Hail Alba.
Bernard Ponsonby and his sidekick both concentrated on who ruffled who’s feathers . There was no analysis of the questions asked or answers given. Well there couldn’t be as Nicola won it hands down however you look at it. So that left Bernard with nothing to comment on other than who wound up who the most!
Anas Sarwar was never going to answer any of Nicola’s questions. As any answer would be an acknowledgement of the failure of the Union. So Anas had no alternative but to keep spouting a barrage of words to Nicola’s questions. Both sides would’ve known this would be the case before the show.
Ponsonby and sidekick can say what they want, the whole of Scotland (borders?) saw the debate. Last night Pons. & S’kick lost street cred with a large audience. Before the referendum is over there won’t be a unionist presenter who will be listened to by the voters!, threatenning their employability (in Scotland) after the referendum!
Corrrected Above Typo’s
Bernard Ponsonby and his sidekick both concentrated on who ruffled who’s feathers . There was no analysis of the questions asked or answers given. Well there couldn’t be as Nicola won it hands down however you look at it. So that left Bernard with nothing to comment on other than who wound the other up the most!
Anas Sarwar was never going to answer any of Nicola’s questions, as any answer would be an acknowledgement of the failure of the Union. So Anas had no alternative but to keep spouting a barrage of words to Nicola’s questions. Both sides would’ve known this would be the case before the show.
Ponsonby and sidekick can say what they want, the whole of Scotland (borders?) saw the debate. Last night Pons. & S’kick lost street cred in front of a large audience. Before the referendum is over there won’t be a unionist presenter who will be listened to by the voters!. This will threaten their employability (in Scotland) after the referendum!
Andrew Morton says:
6 September, 2013 at 1:23 pm
Actually, what we need isn’t an article about the debate, but rather an article about how the MSM have shut down debate about the debate.
Hahaha!! You were obviously a student of the Johann Lamont correspondent course in public speaking and speech making!
John G at 1.18
Nonsense. All Nicola did was continually ask him to answer a question – any question.
I thought she was smashing – ans so did anybody I asked today – including one person who asked why Labour never puts up any of its leaders in these debates!
Morag
Faroes are not that great on pensions.
‘Basket case’ Spain, has a pension of 2/3ds national average wage ie over 20,000 euros per year. The UK is second bottom only to Greece who are effectively in administration to the Troika,
Also note that total UK (percentage of GDP) spend on welfare was already significantly lower than the EU average before the IDS/Gideon cuts.
UK TED is way and by far due to the financial sector, accounting for about 3/4 of the total. No other developed nation state comes close.
Beating up those in need will achieve nothing.
Genuine regulation of casino London and a sane approach to punitive measures for those in the financial sector who see it as a scam machine for fleecing the oiks would achieve something as would reminding them that they are actually supposed to be serving the public and oiling the economy.
But we both know that aint going to happen this side of a revolution.