The hopeless case
We linked you yesterday to a quite startling display of cognitive dissonance, as a dedicated Labour activist struggled to reconcile his party’s position on Trident with his own belief in disarmament, reaching some quite extraordinary contortions of logic in an attempt to convince himself that staying in the Union represented the best way of ridding the United Kingdom of weapons which are enthusiastically supported by every major UK political party and the Lib Dems.
But it’s not just mad bloggers who are frantically trying to whip up a sandstorm of spin to obscure Labour’s final abject surrender to the nuclear weapons lobby.
Readers will probably already be familiar with the fierce journalistic work of Torcuil Crichton, the political editor of Scotland’s second-biggest-selling newspaper. But in addition to his in-depth investigations of just why Anas Sarwar is so brilliant and handsome (sorry, “telegenic”), Crichton pens an opinion column for the Record every Monday, generally dedicated to pointing out that the SNP are beastly. This week, though, he’s set himself a stiffer-than-usual challenge. (Click the image to read it.)
“Nuclear weapons are immoral, the deterrent has no practical purpose except to end the world but we are shackled to them as expensive status symbols because politicians cannot defy military convention” sounds like a pretty unequivocal statement of opposition to us. But it’s a problem for Torcuil, because he loathes the SNP, the only party of government anywhere in Britain which is committed to getting rid of them.
How to square the circle? The answer is surprising.
“Salmond knows the US would veto Scotland’s membership of international fruit trading organisations, never mind NATO or the EU, until it accepted nukes at Faslane.”
Into that one small sentence are packed so many bewildering and irrational assertions that it’s going to be tricky to catch them all, but we’ll have a go.
1. Are there actually any “international fruit trading organisations”? (How does that work? “Swap you 20 grapes for a pineapple”?)
2. The US does not have a veto over EU membership.
3. The vast majority of NATO member nations do not host nuclear weapons on their territory, so the assertion that Scotland would be treated differently is difficult to understand. (Even if acting under US pressure, how could Belgium, say, agree to impose a condition of Scotland being forced to accept nuclear weapons when Belgium doesn’t have any?)
4. With or without nuclear weapons, Scotland’s strategic location would mean that the US was absolutely desperate to ensure it was in NATO, providing US vessels with unhindered access to its waters. A non-NATO Scotland would be a complete nightmare for US naval forces operating in the North Atlantic.
5. Just a few weeks ago the New York Times reported “The [economic] situation in Britain is so bad that American officials are quietly urging it to drop its expensive nuclear deterrent.” (In favour of spending the money on conventional armed forces instead, which unlike Trident actually serve a practical purpose from the US point of view.)
6. Crichton, like the US military, complains that Trident is “expensive”. But if an independent Scotland declined to retain any ownership of the weapons, but DID allow them to be stationed in Faslane under UK/US control, that burden would at least be lifted from Scottish taxpayers.
It wouldn’t solve the moral problem, but would at least offer a huge financial benefit, because Scotland would not only be freed from paying for Trident, but could extract large sums in rent and concessions in independence negotiations.
7. Alex Salmond knows that NATO membership is popular with the public but unpopular within his own party, adopted as policy only out of grudging pragmatism. If the SNP go into the referendum promising to seek membership of NATO, secure a Yes vote, uphold their promise but are then rebuffed by the US, he wins either way. So why would he cave in on Trident, which would be politically catastrophic in Scotland?
Seven false premises in 25 words. Not bad, Torcuil.
Crichton’s claims, then, are clearly cobblers. His schizophrenic column at once bemoans Labour’s pro-nuclear policy while also bitterly attacking the only electable political party which offers the one he wants. It’s as good an illustration of how Labour’s all-consuming tribal hatred of the SNP cripples the party in Scotland and turns its ideology inside-out, back-to-front and upside-down as you could hope to see. It’s no wonder its activists tie themselves in knots trying to rationalise it.
Despite all of Labour’s attempts to promote the idea of disarmament as unachievable and nuclear weapons as inevitable, neither is the case. There IS political will in Scotland for getting rid of Trident – plenty of it – and a clear practical path by which to make it a reality. The only thing which needs to be abolished in order to make it happen is the political relevance and influence of the Labour Party.
It would be funny, if it wasn’t so dishonest.
I don’t think anyone would notice if we couldn’t get fruit anymore. Apart from the ‘Orange’ order, possibly,
Barking bloody mad.
I’m struggling to find a more diplomatic description of Mr Crichton’s contortionist act.
Oh no, Independence will be literally a fruitless endeavour. Now I’m dreading there’s a vegetable trade body as well. We’re doomed.
@benamine
I’m sure he’ll turnip something.
Torcuil Crichton will not engage in debate with anyone.
His website pretends that it is open to comments but he has never published a single one in my experience. He seems to be the living personal embodiment of the Labour closed mind 🙂
His brother has been-probably still is- a “Scottish” Labour candidate which I suppose tells us all we need to know
The US would love one less country to not have nukes – the technological advancements in long range ballistics render a European front line obsolete. Not only would it diminish the European global voice in matters of world domination, it would inherently raise the US’.
Being part of the team-destructo seems to be more prevalent among those who for whatever reason like films with lots of explosions, fast cars and irrationally exaggerated superiority of unequivocal power of false heroes that must somehow fill a gaping hole of underachievement in the viewers life.
There cannot be a political reason to wield such power in a country that does not share this sense of lacking – the people of Scotland are obviously more at rest with themselves.
Mr Crichton is the epitomy of the blinkered closed mind Labourite automaton.
If only these people would open their minds and eyes they would see there is a better way for Scotland to go ,at present it is not with the Labour Brand.
These die hard haters of SNP/Scotland are a lost cause ,as the saying goes ,”there are none so blind as those that will not see”
It’s amazing how many inteligent commentators and activists simply refuse to reach the logical conclusion that independence is the only option that will remove Trident from the Scottish waters. It’s not rocket science! These people want to have their cake and eat it, they dream of a strong, WMD-free, United Kingdom. Union Yes, Nukes No! What an impossible concept. They seem to suffer from an emotional, unionist blind-spot that simply cannot accept that Nukes and UKes are inextricably linked – you cannot have one without the other.
Well, rather like long-term radioactive emmissions, the Faslane problem is not going to go away. The people don’t want them, but all three unionist parties refuse to get rid of them. If people really feel strongly about stopping a replacement for Trident, then they should really consider voting yes in 2014. It really is the only way. A No vote will ensure continuation of the madness for another 50 years. Are you listening, Ms Lamont? Is that what youy really want? Your SLAB fence is shoogly – you cannot sit on it foerever. Decide now!
I like how these Labour people say “I am against nuclear weapons” then go on to say ‘we can’t get rid of them because the party I support won’t get rid of them, so begrudgingly they have to stay.’ What we see is the love of the Party over any moral or principled stance the individual may have. Labour must be supported at all costs, even if it means denigrating the one party that WANTS and has the means to get rid of nuclear weapons.
It is contorted, it is schizoid, and it’s an indictment of the BritNat Labour Party today, especially in the North British office.
Torquil faces the problem any partisan political hack faces when squaring his allegiances with his actual politics. So war is peace and death is life. He is wedded to Labour and has no option but to spin in the wind. To my mind he isn’t worthy of being read. I prefer my columnists a little more honest than that even if I do disagree with them, Cockers is a raving lunatic still fighting the 1997 referendum but he is a consistent raving lunatic, Torquil is rather more compliant than that and that is just embarrassing to read.
@JPJ
His brother was a labour candidate (Western Isles). I think he’s now an Independent cooncillor which tells us even more.
Labour for Independence support the removal of nuclear weapons.
@Rod Mac;
Luckily, new stem cell research has successfully implanted photoreceptors into the eyes of blind mice. This breakthrough could help Mr Crichton.
Bagsy being the one with syringe.
I am beginning to hate ‘traditional journalists’. Journalism should be about truth, facts and balanced opinion. They have responsibility to the community as much as Teachers, Judges, Policemen or the medical profession for example.
The good, or the damage, journalists can do to the community is immense.
Journalists who allow personal bias and beliefs to subsume their ethics and principles, are like Doctors who have forgotten the Hippocratic Oath.
It’s hardly surprising that more people turning off print media, where editorial bias attempts to control the masses….
Journalists are driving their own profession into the same category as politicians, corrupt, sleazy and selfish.
They should not use any literary talent that they have, to confuse people with baseless propaganda. I’d much rather choose to listen to the ‘opinions’ of a variety of bloggers, than be force fed dubious facts by unscrupulous journalists with agendas.
Can anyone remind me, is it Eurasia or Eastasia that we are at war with?
“IT MIGHT BE HARD SO LET’S NOT TRY TO MAKE ANYTHING BETTER”
The entire Unionist position in twelve words.
Fruit trade?? Well that at least is a new one. Vote Yes and you’ll get scurvy.
The USA has plenty nukes of its own, it doesn’t need the UK to have them too, though so long as the UK voice on the UN Security Council mirrors that of the US, it is advantageous to have the UK there.
@HandAndShrimp;
Cocker’s is my favourite Scottish comedienne – Bearded ladies always make me laugh.
HoraceSaysYes says: Can anyone remind me, is it Eurasia or Eastasia that we are at war with?
Which ever one it is, we’ve always been at war with them.
@HoraceSaysYes …
For the love of Big Brother, that is not the right question Horace, it should be: “Are we winning?”
There’s a decent piece from Gerry Hassan on Newsnet Scotland about SLAB psychology (more or less free of the usual yearning for Labour to heal itself though with the required identification of similar SNP faults).
http://tinyurl.com/m3mecrc
A case could be made that the existence of the SNP is the only thing that keeps the decomposing body of SLAB twitching.
Does Torcuil fear an Independent Scotland will be a banana republic?
Dcanmore says – For the love of Big Brother, that is not the right question Horace, it should be: “Are we winning?”
D’oh! How could I have been so foolish?
Perhaps Torquil is on the wind up, and nearer the referendum will come out and say “but what the readers didn’t know, was that I was in fact a cybernat all along!”.
(The clue to the practical joke is in his byline photo and its uncanny resemblance to a former Game For a Laugh presenter…)
That argument is bananas.
O/T Perhaps we should ask Johann Lamont to clear it up.
Anyone… anyone….. anyone….. …
If he wants anyone to take him seriously on these weighty matters he really should sort out whatever it is that’s sleeping on his heid.
Some folk here don’t seem to realise how much fruit Scotland produces and exports. We might not grow mangoes and bananas, but we have more than enough raspberries, strawberries, etc.
Just saying.
Luckily, I planted two apple trees and a damson tree last year, making myself self-sufficient in fruit! Plant a tree for #Indy, you know it makes sense. A Common Weal apple tree in every hedgerow for a Free Scotland. Sorry, Torcuil old fruit, I’m not convinced by you at all.
Poor Crichtors knickers torque
Dig for Victory: http://plantsandapples.co.uk/
Torquil is featuring on the front page of bbc scotlandshire:
http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/article-1.html
Berry sour grapes.
It’s hard to believe that any experienced journalist with a scintilla of self-respect, who valued and took pride in his own journalistic ability, would willingly put his name to this piece of tabloid mince. Times must be hard indeed. It’s actually so bad, you get the impression even HIS heart wasn’t in it when he wrote it. Maybe he was just following orders – otherwise I’d fear for his state of mind, that he was capable of thinking this kind rubbish never mind writing it down.
I think if politics did have a body, Mr Crichton wouldn’t represent the heart.
@pa_broon74
Some other orifice… and not the one where you put the cake.
I wonder what might sprout from Brussels if we did roll our sleeves up?
Growing our own is commendable, but perhaps not as productive after all as our honeybee pollinators are in serious decline
So…no more fruit in an independent Scotland…..so no more fruitcakes in an independent Scotland…….it’s bye bye Torcuil then.
I wish people would be a bit more honest about issues where they disagree with their party. I don’t agree with everything the SNP do, but I stick with them because, on balance, they’re the party I most agree with, and they’ve not broken any red-line issues for me. For instance, I want rid of the monarchy, but independence is a far bigger priority for me, so I stick with the SNP, despite their official stance on the monarchy.
I could have a tiny bit of respect for the likes of Torcuil or Hothers if they would simply say “Labour are wrong on this issue, but retaining the union is a bigger priority than getting rid of nuclear weapons for me, so I stick by them.” That would at least be honest. But no, instead they have to create these convoluted reasons why there is no inconsistency in them supporting the union while supposedly being against nukes.
After all, if the union is truly such an important thing for Scotland, then why is it so difficult to get unionists to admit that it’s their number one priority?
With such eminent journos such as Cochrane, Gardham and Crichton as friends, Labour doesn’t have any need of enemies. All three adhere blindly to the “Willie Bain Principle” of the Parliamentary Labour Party – viz. If the SNP propose anything, then we oppose it!
“international fruit trading organisations”
I think the unadmirable Crichton is trying to sell us a lemon. Or, is he perhaps referring to the American United Fruit Company (now the United Brands Company) which tried to dominate the banana trade? It is a very worrying thought that our booming banana exports trade could suffer due to US political interference.
The Westminster machinery has created a system of dependency-loyalty among the career politicians, much the same as a big multinational might engender loyalty in their employees.
Many of the Unionist politicians are fighting for their livelihood, status and privileges. Their very career paths are linked to the continuation of the UK and the Westminster political machine.
The real possibility of Independence is ripping apart the ‘fabric’ of control that Westminster has wielded for decades. This ‘fabric’ is the establishment; the status quo, the privilege, wealth, power and rank, inherent in our class society.
There is real fear in the establishment. Independence is as frightening as revolution. It means massive change to those that least desire it.
Does anyone think this is overdramatic?
Not mad, just Bad
@Ericmac;
Scottish independence is a revolution. I had a devolutionist standpoint last year, simply because the notion that Westminster would deny Holyrood further powers, or the right to remove WMD’s if the people considered that imperative was inconceivable after the reconvening of a Scottish parliament. How wrong I was. Although lots of self education is required, I now believe that Westminster cannot afford Scotland to show the electorate that they are not all powerful, especially considering the ever increasing gap between rich and poor. What will the electorate in the North of England for example think when Scotland shows them that you can stand up to the man and win?
Get in!
Jimbo
Beat me to it and better
“…are enthusiastically supported by every major UK political party and the Lib Dems.”
And Zoidberg!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyFriendsAndZoidberg
To paraphrase Harrison Ford on George Lucas: You can write that shit, but you cannot possibly believe it…
Have Welsh Labour seen the light before Scottish Labour?
The decisive factor, however, has been Welsh Labour’s willingness to differentiate itself from the Labour Party in London. In 2000, Alun Michael, a Tony Blair appointee, was deposed as first minister (or secretary, as it was called then) in exchange for Rhodri Morgan, the preferred candidate of the party’s grassroots.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/can-plaid-cymru-learn-snp-and-put-welsh-independence-agenda
Torquil wants the UK to get rid of Trident and be neuk free. Applying his logic, the UK would then be vetoed by the US and kicked out of the EU, NATO etc. In addition wouldn’t be able to import any fruit?
O/T ( again!) but if there’s anyone here with un-moderated access to the Herald, there is an open goal called Richard Mowbray over there just begging for a decent striker…
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/letters/it-is-the-no-camp-that-is-guilty-of-obfuscation-in-the-big-debate.21668786
Deary, deary me.
When will these people learn?
The Rev has shown time and time again, and with apparent ease, how feeble their
‘arguments’ are. He rips them apart succinctly each and every time and clearly
has the patience of a Saint in doing so; and many of this site’s readers are
also quite adept at doing the same on various forums/columns (Doug Daniel,
Peter Bell, Sneekyboy, Skier to name but four).
Rev, I salute you! I would simply not have the patience to
wade through all this kind of drivel and dismantle it.
You (and the likes of you) are doing us a great favour.
Torcuil Crichton is not a joutnalist, he is a walking, talking, thought-terminating cliché. He probably thinks his photo presents an air of stern paternalism, rather than just making him look like the sleekit bam his articles suggest he actually is.
@Stuart Black
Fantastic letter, Stuart. Arguing with Mowbray is like arguing with Jezerna. His comments speak for themselves.
A big raspberry from me to Torquil, I can afford it, I’ve loads of them. and gooseberries, red currants, blackcurrants, apples. And would you bee-lieve this year a wide strip of wildflowers for the pollinators!
-BBBCScotlandshire has taken care of Torcuil – beautifully!
Rev I will be delighted to contribute to the poll – not so delighted about how to make that contribution!
I know ,I know – everyone does it so what’s wrong with me?
Thanks Jeannie. Mowbray is an ever present on the letters page, but he’s really gone into ‘Disgusted of Turnbridge Wells’ mode with that comment. Dear Leader, dear god!
And I’m sure he knows fine well that Salmond did not suggest the Isle of Man route, but hey, why bother with facts when there are scary ‘socialists’ to hunt down. The pavlovian response is too deep rooted.
The epitome of an angry Tory.
Slightly o/t but that story about Dave holidaying in Scotland is beyond patronising.
You are devine and a Dorethy
Listen to Eartha Kitte instead.
hey ho, it is Friday, I have been told by my Carers
“The only thing which needs to be abolished in order to make it happen is the political relevance and influence of the Labour Party.”, should be reduced in length to read …
“The only thing which needs to be abolished in order to make it happen is the Labour Party.”
By the way, during my travels across the USA this summer, I have been surprised yet pleased to meet so many expat Scots apparently agitating individually or through organisations to influence Scots at home to vote YES.
The press will unlikely investigate & publish this phenomena but my experience suggests a massive groundswell of support for independence from Scots and descendants of Scots in overseas territories. Some of them are those undesirable “foreigners” that flipper Darling like to sneer at.
sitting here posting away merrily and seeing no posts coming up thinking what have I done to get shunned? and noticed my email address was misspelled doh
Pissed on the Job,,,,,,, Eh?
Good article; however Belgium (along with Netherlands , Italy, Germany and Turkey) does host US nuclear weapons, not hugely willingly.
I believe there are two sites, both USAF bases; one at Kleine Brogel, one at (I think) Mons
@ Bugger (the Panda)
Thought you might be interested in the Bank of International Settlement’s latest annual report. It paints a pretty bleak picture of global indebtedness.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/one-loud-noise/#comment-449709
Dcanmore says:
For the love of Big Brother, that is not the right question Horace, it should be: “Are we winning?”
It appears you have questioned whether we are winning the war against Eastasia {edit as required}. Please report to The Ministry of Truth, Room 101, tomorrow when the clock is striking thirteen. There you will attend an intensive course of lectures by Professors Crichton and Cochrane (IngSoc) until such time as you realise that black is white.
Belgium , Netherlands and possibly Germany all have NATO(US) nuclear bombs in their countries today, removal has been a long subject of discussion,
http://euobserver.com/defence/31381
It’s a simple set of equations for Torcuil .
In terms of personal priority:
Labour + Scotland = Good
SNP + Scotland = Bad
Union Jack + Scotland > No nukes
Union Jack + Scotland > Tory free Scotland
Union Jack + Scotland > Bedroom Tax
In fact you could combine the last three equations into one.
Union Jack + Scotland > Bedroom Tax + Tory Free Scotland + No nukes.
The not so admirable Crichton’s plan to render an independent Scotland fruitless is just that – fruitless. For a start we have always produced a large percentage of the UK’s soft fruits, strawberries and rasps and of course we have apples, pears and tomatoes (yes, they are a fruit) as well.
Furthermore, as far as I am aware, we cannot grow bananas, even in Fife, so how can we then become a ‘Banana Republic’?
Still, as a piece of scaremongering, it might count, just, as one of the U-pack’s 5-a-Day.
If Torcuil was a fruit, he’d probably be a Lychee, as in cheesy liar.
I’ll get my coat.
On perusing a few of his crayonings in his comic I am very strongly of the opinion that the first thing he does of a morning is ram a pickle up his arse. Perhaps he is attempting to emulate the North British Labour Party MSP group.
Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard,
solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy
answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people
more than having to think.
Martin Luther King, Jr
Torcuil – if only…. forget it, its gone over your head.
That Torcuil gies me the pip.
@Stuart
Sorry mate, I’m back in pre-mod. But I did get a nice letter explaining why, so I told them I would behave in future.
If the leaders of China, India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea and France have nuclear capability, then by God I want my Prime Minister to have the same.
Running dog is a literal translation into English of the Chinese/Korean communist pejorative z?u g?u ??, meaning lackey or lapdog, an unprincipled person who helps or flatters other, more powerful and often evil people. It is derived from the eagerness with which a dog will respond when called by its owner, even for mere scraps.
Stuart Black – been to the Herald and posted to Mr Mowbray – may be a bit late though to get past the mod on the late shift!
Currywurst, because those bastards are nuking non-WMD-armed countries on a daily basis, right?
@ Currywurst
China and India are currently eyeballing each other as they posture towards conflict, so I do not think they are concerned about us. It looks as if Pakistan and Iran are about to be disbanded, and I really can’t see France invading again. Apparently they don’t like the food and the descendents of those that decided to stay after their first visit, already own all the best real estate. So would you like to try again?
Almost forgot, N. Korea are under more threat of starvation than I am from their scary, scary nuke capability. Psyche.
Psyche.
I’m obviously not urban and down with it, as sike! was a popular dismissal back the ’70s.
Fruit trading organisation?
I hope Scotland is not going to become a “Banana Republic” after the “Yes” vote.
Boom! Boom!
No bother Tony! What was the reason they gave anyway?
@Stuart
Well I got a very nice letter from Calum MacDonald advising that I have “… publicly called into question the identity of another poster. Apart from being disrespectful, that impugns the integrity of our forum in a completely unacceptable way.”
It was, of course, Jazerna Roza. He may have a point, but I couldn’t find an email address to send a complaint. I replied that I understood his decision, but pointe out that no one I know in Slovenia, nor my own experiences there, and in the region since 1998 suggest that “Jezerna Roza” is a real name, and so SHE has broken their principle rule about using real names. However, I did promise not to call her identity again, and that it is now a decision/issue they have to resolve. Incidentally, “Jezerna Roza” IS Slovene, it means “Lake’s Flower”.
I see she is at it again. I also noted that she posts at the most unusual times. One post yesterday was made at 6.00am (Slovene time) and another in the earlier hours of the morning. So either she never sleeps, or ‘she’ is in fact more than one person. I think this is likely as there are at least three distinctive “styles” of post.
So, back to pre-mod and already some posts have not appeared, nothing bad or ‘naughty’ but obviously they (Herald) don’t want me posting comments to JohnOBE, Kelly, or Jezza. Shame really as I was responding to their garbage and not personal.
Take care mate
Final comment: ALL my posts on the herald today have been deleted without publication. God, they are SO childish. Well, back to ignoring them.
LAST EDIT: Maybe they haven’t deleted them! Ha, further letter from Calum, he’s been very busy!
You’re right Tony, a very childish policy, and not very balanced either. That fuckwit from Woking can post reams of comments, basically all along the lines of Salmond’s a fat bastard – I paraphrase only slightly – and never seems to get dug up.
I’ve given in, TBH.
@Stuart
Well. I have tio say I am pleasantly surprised. Calum wrote a mail to which I replied with an apology for over-egging the pudding, and he REINSTATED ME!! But I will be very careful in future. So, lesson learned 😉
“Well. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised. Calum wrote a mail to which I replied with an apology for over-egging the pudding, and he REINSTATED ME!! But I will be very careful in future.”
Hey, can you ask him how long I have to comment before they “know me well enough”? I’m never abusive, and it’s been about two years now…
@Rev, Ah, but did you attach an apologetic <smiley>?
Bill Mclean at 10.40
Mowbray gets a regular collection of bollocks printed in the Herald letters.
There is rarely if ever any response to them printed though they are usually so full of holes that they are laughable. It speaks of a special relationship with the Herald which appears to be enjoyed by a handful of other bollock merchants
Zombie thread alert!
I think the bias in the readers’ letters and in particular in the BTL comments moderation says it all about the Herald’s editorial line. When a paper extends its editorial straitjacket to include contributions from its readers, it has crossed a line in my opinion.