The generation game
Sometimes, readers, analysis is simply unnecessary, because the news speaks for itself. We’re not just saying that because it’s a lovely sunny day outside in unseasonal t-shirt temperatures, either, because it’s difficult to think of what needs to be added to a polling result saying that – far from being sick of the whole issue after three years of constitutional debate – a three-to-two majority of Scots would welcome a second independence referendum within just FIVE years, and a two-to-one majority would be happy to have one within a decade.
When you add in the findings of a completely different poll which revealed that were the referendum tomorrow Scotland would vote Yes by 52-48 (a huge 7% swing in as many weeks), it doesn’t take much in the way of professional insight to deduce the mood of the nation, particularly in the context of pro-independence parties having trebled their membership while the hollowed-out shell of Scottish Labour implodes and a panicking media tries frantically to anoint Jim Murphy – Jim Murphy – as its saviour.
So we’re off to the park for a bit.
They are punting Jim as some modern day Moses who will lead his people to the promised land. Stairheid never looked like that Stu the only twirl she could do would be the handbag roon her heid
I am in despair of the Labour party Nationally if the best they can foist on Scotland to save the soul of the Party of Keir Hardy is Jim (snout in the trough) Murphy. Rumour from friends that live in his constituancy are that he might struggle to retain his seat at the General Election anyway. Jumping before hes shoved maybe?
Have fun at the park!
Scotland would vote YES tomorrow but then we haven’t been blitzed by UKOK/media/BBC/Project Fear shock and awe, you’ll have no money on Monday, kind of terrorizing for a few weeks.
They’ll be back.
SLab members who support Findlay and Boyack will now learn what we already learned earlier, that there’s no democracy when there is no balance in the media.
Given the current penchant for cultural references in relation to Jim “I’m on a retainer from Barrs”) Murphy:
He’s not the Messiah. He was a very naughty boy!
So much better without the typo:
He’s not the Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy!
The way things are going the BBC will give him his own show. Jim’ll Fix It! He could put on a yellow wig and smoke cigars.
Cold and windy in Ayrshire lucky you going to the park in Tshirt. Although I did see a guy on a motorbike yesterday with shorts on .
“Didn’t they do well!”
Bring it on 🙂
@ronald alexander mcdonald, Daily Telegraph certainly have the Tory boy hots for future FM of their Scotland region Murphy.
Torygraph’s Comical Cockers certainly has,
“how do you like your eggs in the morning you union saving hottie you…
“It would be, frankly, madness if Labour rejected Mr Murphy. He may not be everyone’s cup of tea and many in Labour’s ranks are hugely irritated, in that perverse way of theirs, by his facility with words and by his popularity with the media – much in the same way as they used to regard Tony Blair.”
A blue Tory boy love for a faithful red tory that dares not speak its name.
I have no respect for any of the Labour politicians, they have stabbed Scotland in the back at the beck and call of Westminster. They have broken all faith rules in their deceit in their partnerships. Stuff them all good or bad they played the line.
The way of the DODO is my hope.
We need to get some media onside that doesn’t rely on London for broadcasting licences or editorial control from Tory owners. This in order to get a fair crack of the whip,because the referendum we just had was unfair re the media bias.
It is still going on after the Murphy party political broadcasts we had today so far.
@heedtracker. Yep, similar to Johann’s infamous “something for nothing society” crap. Only supported by the tories.
I think the poll shows that there were those that voted No under the cosh of the fear propaganda and released from that they return to the fold.
Jim and Lord Smith had better ca canny. They are not working with a silent majority that back their Union they are pushing against a majority that is increasingly setting their face against them.
As far as ref2 is concerned I feel sure there will be a further shift upwards soon with Nicola’s forthcoming meetings across Scotland, including the 12,000 sell out at the Metro.
A lot of people should leave more resolute, and inspired.
They will continue to spread the word. Then the SNP Conference, which will once again have the party in the spotlight. Once more those attending should leave resolute and inspired, to again spread the word.
This will compound woes for Slab/ labour in general, despite what concoction they are scheming up.
The desire for Indy will have a shot in the arm.
This is a time to really target all the Unionist seats across Scotland, and leave them as bare as possible.
Media darling Jim Murphy is almost as popular with the Tories as Alistair Darling. Something is not quite right about that. In fact, something stinks like a rotten egg! Traditional Scottish Labour supporters ought to be a little concerned about that.
Perfect day to pick up marigolds? 😉
Enjoy your stroll!
Scotland now knows it will win the next referendum, and so does the rest of the world, and so does Westminster.
All we need to do now is decide when.
The swing to Yes may be much larger than you might think at first glance.
Assuming 3.6 million voters as there was in the referendum, 52% saying Yes now is almost 1.9 million so roughly 300,000 have switched from No to Yes in six weeks.
Or another way of looking at it is approximately 15% of No voters have changed their mind! I’m both amazed and dismayed.
A modern day Moses? He’ll be picking up his 10 commandments from Ed on his way down the Cannongate then?
Just throwing this in there but without the Vote rigging personal and postal ,52 Yes 48 No was a more accurate result in the Referendum and this new pole does not show any change in voting intentions from before the Referendum.
Why would there be such a big swing?
I’m amazed it’s not over 60% Yes for Indy now. So many selfish, ignorant or just plain dumb folk among us.
O/t but I need to relate this story as it emphasises the outright weirdness of some of our fellow Scots. In the Whitehill area of Hamilton there is a house that is hard to miss. It’s a common rat run, to avoid the bizarre road system in the area near the county buildings, for those that know the place. For years the owner has had a rather tatty saltire flying at the side of his house. Tatty or not, in the run up to the referendum it was another heartening sight, along with a couple of Yes houses in the same street. Then, with about two weeks to go, what appears in his window but a home made No Thanks sign! Now, a few weeks later, he has finally replaced that tatty flag with, wait for it, a brand spanking new Lion Rampant. The ultimate Proud Scot But.
[…]a completely different poll which revealed that were the referendum tomorrow Scotland would vote Yes by 52-48 (a huge 7% swing in as many weeks)
In actual fact this isn’t true. If you look at the details, it shows that, excluding the 6% who say they wouldn’t vote or are unsure how, 52% say they would now vote Yes.
But this is based on a sample who say that 48% of them voted Yes in September, when it was actually 44.7%. YouGov don’t appear to have reweighted their result to reflect this, but if you do Yes reduces from 52% to 48.4%, though because YouGov’s figures are rounded it’s a little misleading to be this precise when calculating from them.
So the poll suggests that Scots would still vote No, though by a very narrow margin. There is definite movement towards Yes though, and surprisingly those who have switched have done so decisively, rather than moving much to Don’t Know.
Still a gold star for actually linking to the tables, which is more than the Guardian and PA managed.
Do hope that you checked your windows prior to leaving!
I see that Katy Clark MP is putting herself forward for Holyrood too. How does that change the dynamics?
I might have to go out and buy some popcorn at this rate!
Its been a good week for us, I am certainly looking forward to the politics show and the Sunday Herald tomorrow.
I wonder if the BBC will continue with its canonisation of Jim Murphy tomorrow, they seem to have forgoten about the other two candidates.
A wee shout for the online newspaper “Scottish Statesman”, nae bad sae far.
I see Katy Clark is standing for the deputy leader post. I am not sure there are many as far at the opposing end of the Labour spectrum from Jim as Katy currently serving as an MP in Scotland. Interesting times.
I have a question for all of the much more informed on here. Just received my ‘The way you register to vote is changing’ letter.
As far as I can tell, the re-registration is automated? Given past occurrences, is it ok to let this go, or should I ask to have my name removed from the open register?
I mean why now?
“Come on Jim, Give us a twirl!”
Yeah, they all say that now, but if there is another referendum the Granny Frightening Tories and their Labour cohorts will scare enough back into the pen to ensure another No victory.
If the cunning plan seems not to be cunningly successful ………..
Barrs announce that Irn Bru will have price increase if Boyack is elected leader.
Daily Recker has front page My Vow signed by Jim.
Bob Geldof in George Square insisting that we give Jim the effin votes.
Orange Ordure bang the drum for him.
George Robertson warns that the sun will fall out of the sky if The Chosen One is not chosen.
Jackie Bird ” Let’s just call him the best man for the job”
Sir Ian Wood remains silent because he has enough contracts for the moment, thanks very much.
I believe a lot of no voters will now be regretting voting ‘No’, and would be happy to have another vote at the earliest opportunity to put things right.
Gone yerself Stu.
Just mentioned this on my last post on the last article with Chris’s cartoon. We are still hammering away and look like not ever giving up. We will be independent. That’s a nap.
Tempting to sit back and watch the Zombie party implode as they are doing a cracking job turning off voters.
Could we have a day when there are more Tories than Labour?
Local bi election in midlothian soon. Time to get our guy (SNP) into to his new job. he start of many.
“Anthea Redfern ooooooh ” Pin up when i was a youngish guy.
I think Murphy is probably a palitable tactical vote for Tories who know their party will get whipped in scotland anyway.
The very idea of Scottish independence has become ‘normalised’. From a base of 45% the next IndyRef vote will, I suspect, be a foregone conclusion. YES will win easily. But it needs to happen sooner rather than later (a max five years) so that all this rubbish about the Vow and WM’s betrayal will still be (relatively fresh) in voters’ minds.
Skimming through the Scotsman (not bought by me I might add). Yet to see either Neil Findlay or Sarah Boyack’s name. It’s Jim Murphy and Ke$ia all the way.
Wonder how Sarah and Neil (and indeed Katy Clark) are feeling? It’s a little galling when the machine is skewing a election against you innit? Works the same way in referendums. Shame not a single No voice complained about the pro union wall to wall coverage.
Sorry but it’s hard to gain traction when the media and labour london leadership have made up their mind. Maybe next time…
pussy nancy says: I have a question for all of the much more informed on here. Just received my ‘The way you register to vote is changing’ letter.
As far as I can tell, the re-registration is automated? Given past occurrences, is it ok to let this go, or should I ask to have my name removed from the open register?
I mean why now?
Because the UK is moving to individual electoral registration. Wiki has an article giving a summary. As it says, the change was delayed in Scotland till after the referendum.
It is claimed that most people will be transfered over automatically and that people won’t be removed from the register till after the General Election. But big government computer projects have a tendency to go wrong and different authorities may implement it in different ways. So it will be best to return the form to be on the safe side and to make sure that everyone in your household does so as well – and if they haven’t received a form make sure that they get one. From now on everyone will have to register separately – you can’t rely on other people to do it for you.
Political groupings are going to have to monitor this very carefully because a lot of people may well lose their vote next year and even more in 2016. This will especially apply to those who move frequently – the young, those in rented accommodation and so on. The sort of people in other words who such an effort was made to register for for the referendum.
@ Auld A dey you expect the tae feed us every day, then dey the washing up ( marigolds indeed) I,ll wash You dry,enjoy yer couple of hours aff Stu.
Many voices here expressing how much they dislike Murphy and his policies. I agree.
But after a decade of Scottish Labour leaders who simply weren’t up to the job, Murphy has the skills and competence. He talks comprehensible English, speaks coherently and wittily self-deprecatingly, and doesn’t dig himself into every pothole he finds.
I deplore his Blairite, militarist politics, and his diehard unionism. It’s no accident that he has turned a safe Tory seat into a New Labour bastion; he is the Labour man who shares enough of the Tory values that they can do business with him.
I think that the independence movement *can* win the argument against Murphy. But he is a much more effective opponent than his predecessors, and will be no pushover — especially with most of the MSM joining his team.
The good Indy party polling, demand for a rerun soon, and even suggestions of Yes support improving …. Are probably being driven by the chaos and SLab, and the reality that promises/offers/vows are disappearing like snaw aff a dyke.
Find it very hard to decide who I want SLab to choose!
Obvious I want them to get the worst possible candidate from an Indy point of view, not a recovery point of view. Put basically who will cock up and make things even worse for Slab?
I keep thinking, Murphy is most likely to screw up and finish of SLab since she is part of their problem, not a solution.
Boyack and Findlay are merely contesting the cuddley toy.
I was luck enough to hear BBC Radio Scotland GMS this morning. I can’t remember which Labour bods they had on, but the one supporting Jim didn’t appear to have recognised that Scotland has woken up politically (to a degree). Apparently all was fine in the Labour family and they did not have to re-position themselves to ensure electoral survival.
I did find it difficult to distinguish between Labour guests and BBC presenters, so no change there.
@ pussy nancy
The letter I got says :
“Your details are not on the open register as you have already chosen to be removed from it.”
If your letter doesn’t say that (presuming all Electoral Registration Offices operate the same way), and you want to be removed, you will have to tell them.
It has always been the case, ever since the two forms of register were separated, that you will be on both unless you request otherwise.
Regards Murphy, he is capable and manipulative. Transparently so.
I think the obvious move would be to call for the independence of the Scottish labour party and point to that as proof of change.
Of course it wouldn’t really be independent, but the perception is what counts. And the tactic could backfire in the future with a different leader. Westminster would always have to make sure a total stooge is in charge.
@ pussy nancy, the Electorial Register is private, the Open Register is a saleable item ie your information can be obtained by any buisness ie dept recovery ect, dont give them the revenue.
@Ronnie: my acclimation to Scottish accent is not yet complete, but do I gather that your sentence lacks a word (after the first ‘the’), or am I wrong?
Cheers!
Ronnie Anderson
Just catching up with the last post. What is happening tomorrow Ronnie, any details about it. I am up for a visit to George Sq.
Also, here is the link to save the steps campaign. This was set up because Labour led, Glasgow City Council want to tear up this iconic meeting place for the YES Alliance. The “Steps” are at the top end of Buchanan St, near George Sq.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-the-steps
And a cracking picture of council leader Gordon Matheson to go with it.
https://athousandflowersblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/mathesonyes.png
Don’t forget the demographic principle. The young are more clued-up and less susceptible to the biased mainstream corporate media. They have social media.
Don’t forget the economic principle either. As Red/Blue Tory austerity continues, more and more people, including in the middle classes, will be threatened and will see the need to be out of this unfair “union” and its disastrous policies of neoliberal economics, no sovereign wealth fund, enormous national debt of which Scotland should not be shouldering a single penny because of its export wealth…
Crazycat & Roger Mexico: Thanks for your replies. Much appreciated.
Amazing to watch the BBC and print media giving the “other candidatea” the referendum treatment.
London directs the music and the puppets dance.
One thing is for sure – the Scottish Branch of the Labour Party will have as much chance at Independence as Scotland had.
Just had a swatch at the votes in the North Coast (NAC) by-election. Held by SNP but with a 6% fall in first preference votes to 38.7%. Tories up 3% to 21.6%. UKIP polled 3.7% (didn’t stand last time and candidate lives on Arran which isn’t in the ward as far as I can tell). Labour down 5% to 13.2%. Strong independent candidate who used to edit the local paper polled 22.8%, but there was an independent in 2012 who polled 16.3%.
Good result, but not exactly reflecting the vote shift apparent in the opinion polls this week (though for completely different questions, one a theoretical Westminster vote and the other for a real council seat where the balance of power in the Council was at stake).
Consistent thing is the fall in support for Labour.
Caz_m, suporting the Catalonian Indy Ref at 11am it was sheduled for 5pm but changed it as its to late in the day for kids to attend.
Stu—– your photo caption re Margaret Curran oor Shadow Secretary of State [Johann’s “best friend” who stabbed her in the back–the Herald] has just reminded me she hasn’t been on the telly for nearly TWO WEEKS!!!
She’s usually on thrice weekly.
In hiding?
I am not as clued up on all the Labour personalities as some on this site. I don’t know if Jim Murphy can bring back the Labour voters who have been leaving them in droves. What I was wondering about was the Scottish Labour MSPs. If Jim Murphy is pushed in by BBC et al, without giving the other candidates a fair shout, will any Labour MSPs be unhappy enough to leave Labour?
What do people think?
By our (Blairite) works ye will know us… …and we will avoid the continual quicksand of Apology!
-Jim Murphy-
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/mar/12/jim-murphy-labour
O/T
Scotland voted to stay within the UK and one of the consequences of that is, we get lumped in with their foreign policy of attacking ISIS in the Middle East.
Well, because of these attacks, all UK citizens are being warned to be alert when they travel abroad. That means anywhere in the world. The Foreign Office link:
“There is considered to be a heightened threat of terrorist attack globally against UK interests and British nationals from groups or individuals motivated by the conflict in Iraq and Syria. You should be vigilant at this time.”
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-to-travel-advice-on-the-global-threat-from-terrorism
Better Together folks, and don’t forget to pack the bulletproof vest when you are heading off on your Hols.
Harry McAye says:
1 November, 2014 at 12:44 pm
I’m amazed it’s not over 60% Yes for Indy now. So many selfish, ignorant or just plain dumb folk among us.
O/t but I need to relate this story as it emphasises the outright weirdness of some of our fellow Scots. In the Whitehill area of Hamilton there is a house that is hard to miss. It’s a common rat run, to avoid the bizarre road system in the area near the county buildings, for those that know the place. For years the owner has had a rather tatty saltire flying at the side of his house. Tatty or not, in the run up to the referendum it was another heartening sight, along with a couple of Yes houses in the same street. Then, with about two weeks to go, what appears in his window but a home made No Thanks sign! Now, a few weeks later, he has finally replaced that tatty flag with, wait for it, a brand spanking new Lion Rampant. The ultimate Proud Scot But.
_______________
Harry,
He’s probably got more in common with certain parts of Burnbank,
No wit ah mean, eh!
😉
until the polls show 60% yes i wont be backing another ref.
@Ealasaid
Not a chance. Labour MPs & MSPs : party before country, career before principle.
@caz-m
I’ve signed that!
I got my reply from Ming Campbell about the VOW. I emailed him but got a letter from the House of Commons plus a copy of the Campbell Report 11 from March 2014!
I can’t just copy the email and send so me being cynical thinks that this was deliberate. However here we are….Thank you for you e mail etc. Each of the parties which did not support Independence had their own view as to how devolution could be improved. BUT THERE WAS NO COLLECTIVE ” VOW ” AS SUCH, but an agreement on the need for change.
Ming then goes on to talk about the Smith Commission, then says that the Lib Dem position has been clear for some time and has enclosed a nine page report, as above. He finished by saying that if I want these reports in full I have to ask his constituency assistant Donald Lothian on lothiand@parluament.uk and he will send them.
So you have it from the horses mouth! There was NO VOW!
I see Unison are backing Findlay. I think Murphy might struggle to get the Union vote and maybe MP/MSP vote. The media, Labour machine and BBC seem to want him to get it but do those with a vote in the matter?
mj – If we all take that attitude there will never be another Ref.
@Caz_M signed & liked the Mathison photo the wee gnomeieo aka the Wee Shouty Manny.
Unions are to back Findlay. Big blow to Murphy.
caz-m, Matheson the Great Architect’s crackpot scheme to rejig George Square in his likeness, wee, scruffy & crap, is no longer mentioned. He should stick to his beehive, he’s away wi the bees anyhow.
Signed the petition
mj says:
“until the polls show 60% yes i wont be backing another ref.”
I think SNP policy is to say they won’t call for another referendum until the Scottish people say they want one. That could amount to the same thing
Their immediate priority seems to be enough MPs to ‘hold feet to fires’ and get more powers.
One thing is certain, the more powers we have the easier it will be to pursuade people to take the step to Independence. That step gets smaller as powers increase. Unionists well know this which is why they try to hold back on as much as possible.
A combination of … popularity for Indy parties, popularity of Independence, a smaller step to Independence, and constitutional pressure (like EU) need to all happen.
I’d always vote YES whether it was tomorrow, next week, next decade.
The Willy Wonka Progaganda Machine has been turned up to 11 at the BBC in relation to Labour in Scotland – and god help anyone that tampers, gets in the way or goes off the Red Lined Labour Script. They’ll be sooked up the tube with recyled paper on it’s way to the shredder, or zapped with a miniaturisation machine in the Labour Mind Control Suite, and end up in Margaret Curran’s handbag (god help them) where they can be endlessly stabbed in the back.
They’re making no bones about putting it’s weight behind Mr Murphy. Just helping out some old friends I presume, prop up their flagging support, etc.
So lets get in an ‘impartial, no Labour connections’ (cough, cough) Catriona Renton to do a piece and blurt it out on Radio2 on a Sat afternoon.
It’s brilliant. They don’t even try to hide their Party Allegiance. It’s comical.
So now we have Ming saying there was no VOW and Labour has said there was no VOW – it’s clearly all down to the despicable Daily Record – Labour even tell us so.
So what’s to be done about it?
Barontorc – We’re doing it, boycott.
BrianW says:
“It’s brilliant. They don’t even try to hide their Party Allegiance. It’s comical.”
They have become emboldened after the referendum. As that progressed, they became more and more biased. They are now taking the attitude they can behave as they want.
A day of reckoning will come!
MJ
The Registrar reckons about 55k people die each year. Us baby boomers are moving up the age scale. In 5 years we may have a majority for Yes, but in 10 years when maybe 400 thousand or so mostly No’s have gone to sup with Wallace and Bruce? We’ll be the majority then.
People get ready there’s a train coming…..
Ditherers and Switherers – grousebeater.wordpress
Enjoy.
Stuart is ‘off to the park,’ I’m off to see Mr. Turner, all two-and-half hours of it.
I am curious;
about 1.5 million signed the “Million Signature” thingy. Many yessers didn’t or know someone who didn’t, and it didn’t appear that easy to do multiple signatures, so the figure could be right.
about 1.6 million voted “Yes” in the referendum. That made about 45% of the vote.
a few weeks later, we apparently have around two thirds who wish a rerun. I think I am safe in assuming that the yessers will still vote “yes”, generally, so that leaves a couple of possibilities;
1) The difference is made up of a LOT of naysayers who, for some reason have changed their mind. (If they hadn’t, why would they want another referendum)
2) There really were a lot more than 45% of the votes cast for “yes”, although this implies jiggery pokery on the part of the organisers, who coincidentally had something to gain, and who, I am sure, would NEVER try anything underhand.
“I see Unison are backing Findlay. I think Murphy might struggle to get the Union vote and maybe MP/MSP vote. The media, Labour machine and BBC seem to want him to get it but do those with a vote in the matter?”
I don’t honestly know what would be better for the pro-Scotland side.
Murphy has the higher public profile and can string a sentence together.
But he is divisive. And seen as a careerist, right winger Blairite, with baggage of Iraq, tuition fees, and campaigning with the Tories in the referendum.
Findlay is less well known, but this would obviously change if he won. He is on the left of the party, has actually had a real job, and might help to retain the traditional vote at the GE.
Hopefully Scotland has moved on, regardless of who gets the job. Proposing even less devolved powers than the Tories isn’t going to go down well.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/01/scotland-vote-independence-poll-yougov
Reading some of the comments on the Guardian piece about this new independence poll.
Callacab
01 November 2014 10:48am
“..
Of course they should have voted YES, that was obvious to bloody everyone, but they bottled it. We own them now.
They were told a few lies by the Westminster Tories and the Spanish PM, and they got so scared about the colour of their bank notes that they voted to be ruled over by… wait for it…. Westminster Tories. What a gutless decision. Laughable.
Now they’re regretting their spinelessness. I’m sure many of them were regretting it even the morning after. But it’s too late – Scotland bottled it, and now Westminster can rule over them for another three centuries, because they actually VOTED for it! Which you must admit… is quite funny.
I mean seriously – what kind of country is so insecure that it votes to be ruled over by a bunch of Etonians from another country? A bunch of Etonians who don’t even like them?
Speaking as an English person, I pity them – but I can’t help but chuckle at their cowardice.
“
Harsh, but true.
re the “there was no Vow, as such” comments.
Is it useful to pursue this further in reference to the Parliamentary Briefing Paper on Scottish Devolution (updated 14th October) that was posted on this site on a previous thread.
I’m trying to find a copy myself – perhaps someone else would be kind enough to post the link.
I’m sure there was a Clause 2.3 (from memory) that stated something of the nature that ” the 3 leaders had signed a joint statement (doesn’t call it a Vow in the paper) that was published as The Vow in the Daily Record.
It does intimate that they signed something on or around this time.
If so, there should be a copy of it.
If it doesn’t exist, who put that Clause in, where did they get information about “signing a joint statement”, and does the Briefing paper need to admit its misleading error so the record can be corrected.
Could this lead to the matter being raised by someone in the House?
I think it’s an avenue worth pursuing. Perhaps people who have been in written correspondence with their Members could reply with this information. It would be necessary to have a copy of the briefing Paper to quote exactly. Don’t let them off the hook.
I made a comment some time before the referendum along the lines of, can you imagine the feeling of voting No and then regretting it for the rest of your life.
It now looks like some people don’t want that feeling for a few years, never mind the rest of their life.
mj says:
1 November, 2014 at 2:50 pm
until the polls show 60% yes i wont be backing another ref.
Likewise.
@Luigi and @mj
If that is so all the establishment have to do is fix the polls and no second referendum EVER!
@ Onwards. 3.58pm
I came across someone gloating on this response on a Facebook thread. this was my reply.
“Turning and fighting amongst ourselves is exactly what the unionists want. There are many reasons why people voted NO. Some did it on principle (a minority), believing that they were “British”. I totally disagree but we should respect that. Others because of “uncertainty” stoked by the unionist media or false promises. Some through sheer fear. I know of pensioners who were in tears because they were told their pensions would be stopped. These people are victims and should be sympathised with, not despised. The ones we should be fighting are the politicians who lied, the establishment and media who behaved in a way which would have made a North Korean propagandist proud.”
@flower of Scotland
“BUT THERE WAS NO COLLECTIVE ” VOW ” AS SUCH, but an agreement on the need for change.”
Yes, agreements don’t need to be honoured at Westminster.
@ Swami is it this
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06987.pdf
Flower of Scotland.
It would be reasonable to write back to Ming and say, as your leader, and the leaders of the other two parties didn’t immediately go on national news and say this was not a Vow and it did not represent their views, then it stands as a Vow, and they have lied to to us.
Where’s Darling?
Has he found Lord Lucan?
About the VOW, I have emailed the Daily Record and asked them if they were lying or were they duped!
I’ve also spoken to my local SNP group who are wanting a copy. My local SNP councillor was really interested in the letter.
I’ll wait and see what reply if any I get from the Daily Record!
@Swami Backverandah says:
1 November, 2014 at 4:05 pm
The briefing paper in the House of Commons Library does indeed make explicit reference to the vow (Section 2.3, p6) as a “joint signed statement of undertakings”.
SN/PC/06987 http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06987.pdf …
Here it is in full:
2.3 UK party leaders’ “vow”
On Tuesday 16 September the leaders of the UK political parties issued a joint signed statement of undertakings, which was published in the Daily Record, under the headline, “The Vow”. The statement included:
The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers for the Parliament will be delivered by the process and to the timetable signed and announced by our three parties, starting on 19 September….
We agree that the UK exists to ensure opportunity and security for all by sharing the resources equitably across all four nations to secure the defence, prosperity and welfare of every citizen.
And because of the continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources, and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue, we can state categorically that the final say on how much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament….
We will honour these principles and values not only before the referendum but after.(10)
(10) Three leaders sign promise to Scotland, Daily Record, 15 September 2014
—————————————–
Just to add –
Anything placed in the House of Commons library is a matter of record. The content of the briefing would therefore be open to FOI requests.
Not sure if it’s already been covered but this is brilliant!
One of the scare stories was we’d be out of the EU. Imagine a run up to another indy ref with rUK looking like it’s voting to leave. The EU would be all over us to stay in. That particular scare story would be dead in the water before it was even raised.
I think Nicola Sturgeon has been very shrewd to say what she did through the week 🙂
Bring it on (to steal a phrase!)
@Barontorc:
What’s to be done? 1. Make a complaint to IPSO, the more people do this, the better. 2. Lawyers would need to look into this, but I am sure that if it was indeed a Daily Record invention, then Cameron, Clegg and Miliband committed an offence by not contradicting it.
@Brian Ritchie: Thank you! That, exactly.
Of course, the problem with the “vow” is that, even if we can nail them down to having made it, it doesn’t actually promise anything apart from allowing us to keep what we already have (Holyrood, Barnett, NHS.)
We only need to win once. So we should aim to have as many referendums and elections as possible.
“Until the polls show 60% or more” is silly.
All they need to do is present bent polls.
Are all the ballot papers stored somewhere? In our usual elections they have to be available for inspection for a year after the result.
Thanks for the links to the briefing paper.
To me, there is a real question to answer re that statement:
“On Tuesday 16 September the leaders of the UK political parties issued a joint signed statement of undertakings,…”
That’s a fairly precise statement.
Who was responsible for it.
If the paper’s authors, where did they get that information.
Or did they just fabricate that statement after having seen a copy of the Daily Record?
(If anyone is following this line of enquiry, don’t be fobbed off by any responses about previous statements signed months before etc, etc.)
The statement in question is (legally) quite specific.
Is it a fabrication?
Thanks again.
@Swami Backverandah :
1 November, 2014 at 7:31 pm
Further info here:
The Commons Library and its research service
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/commons/commonslibrary/
Research briefings
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/
As I said, they’re open to FOI.
Well, this Scots saying, thanks to the wonderful Rabbie may be more appropriate than many would like to think:-
‘But facts are chiels that winna ding, an downa be disputed’ – which so means in English, not to be misinterpreted – ‘facts are fellows that will not be overturned and cannot be disputed’.
Let the official record speak and not the disgraced rag – or the lickspittles who would try water it down.
RE: The Vow
As a ‘joint signed statement’ it would have to be a physical object by definition.
Somebody somewhere has it or knows where it is.
Gotta be.
Good game, good game !
@thomaspotter2014
I’m inclined to believe that no joint statement issued on the 16th September actually exists in any other form than a ‘mocked-up front page on the DR.
This is why I’m so interested in this statement.
Nothwithstanding the crass attempts of the DR to influence the voters – and certainly complaints about their journalistic integrity should be forwarded to relevant authorities, it remains as a statement of fact in a Parliamentary briefing paper.
So how did it get there?
As I noted previously, was it a fabrication after the event by the authors?
Did anyone else give the authors the wording to be inserted?
Even if pursuing this line of enquiry has little significance in any review of the referendum process, (unlikely, but you never know) it may help in any future campaigns for independence as a demonstration of how the public was misled.
For example: a simple question could be put to the authors – upon what information did you base your statement that “On Tuesday 16 September the leaders of the UK political parties issued a joint signed statement of undertakings, which was published in the Daily Record, under the headline, “The Vow”.
Pursuing this could be a request for the document that was ‘issued’.
If there is no document, the statement is misleading and must be corrected.
If by some means the leaders were in some sort of process with the DR in the few days prior to the 16th, and agreed that this process could form a joint statement of undertakings as published, that needs to be demonstrated. Again, the Parliamentary paper is misleading and needs to reflect this.
If the DR just cobbled together some quotes from long previous statements, and appended the signatures (even with the permission of the leaders) the parliamentary briefing paper is again misleading, and demonstrably false.
The only way it could be at all considered to be accurate is if there is a record of the leaders concocting it in the few days prior, and issuing it to the DR.
Therefore, if it is misleading, insofar as there was no joint statement of undertakings issued on the 16th, and allowed to stand, there is a clear example of the public, and MP’s who were briefed in this way, being misled.
Sorry to be so lengthy – just trying to put some detail into my post.
It’s all right, go on, we’re listening. It’s like swimming through cold treacle, this Vow stuff. Each hand blames the other and they’re both laughing at us.
Don’t dismiss this out of hand ,but consider the Misrepresentation Act 1967 after reading this from WiKi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misrepresentation, links to the act itself are within.
Ask yourself this, did the DR breach the act? IMO Yes,
Was it criminal? heart says Yes; Head says Maybe
And where is the Lawyer ,who would pursue it if viable?
Lallands Peat Worrier already said it wouldn’t fly.
Morag, please stop being the Top Girl – Prefect. It’s very wearing. Enough cold water pouring. There was a huge impact from the DR front page VOW – get angry with that, not those who want to get it investigated.
Scot Finlayson,
“Just throwing this in there but without the Vote rigging personal and postal ,52 Yes 48 No was a more accurate result in the Referendum and this new pole does not show any change in voting intentions from before the Referendum.
Why would there be such a big swing?”
Exactly.
The vote WAS DEFINITELY, 100%, rigged and Morag is totally wrong to insist otherwise.
Are you naughty boys still being horrible to my friend Morag? Don’t be silly.
Paula Rose,
“Are you naughty boys still being horrible to my friend Morag? Don’t be silly.”
However well educated, intelligent and rational Morag may be, with all due respect, she has absolutely no clue how the black arts department of the British establishment works.
Do you think they would leave behind “evidence” for people like Morag to see?
You don’t use “evidence” to judge them, you use plain common sense.
There was no way they were going to let go of Scotland and were fully prepared to do whatever was necessary, and they did.
Morag dances, I doubt you do Rock.
Rock honey – do you do the twist?
@Swami Backverandah
@thomaspotter
Here’s one newspaper finally questioning another (a bit) from an article in the Guardian on Friday 31 October 2014:
‘The Vow’ and the Daily Record – creative journalism or political spin?
https://archive.today/tIuUN
Note the apology to the DR editor at the end for “the original error, which suggested the paper was responsible for the wording” – wonder what information was provided by Murray Foote?
And here’s the DR’s own words at the time (Sept 15, 2014):
“The unprecedented agreement was signed after the Record demanded that the leaders clearly explain what they are offering so the Scottish people can decide if it is a better alternative to independence.”
https://archive.today/uibAp
Scot Finlayson claims that the yes campaign won the referendum, and that it was rigged. Douglas Daniel, on Wings over Scotland, on 24 September refuted claims that the vote was rigged: “However, we certainly didn’t lose because of shenanigans at the counts, and perpetuating such stories only hinders the attempts that are currently being made to move on from the result and onto the second phase of this wide-ranging and thriving independence movement (Women For Independence and the Radical Independence Campaign are already planning their next conferences in the coming weeks). As an official referendum agent for Wings Over Scotland who witnessed the counting procedures first-hand, I hope these words might carry at least a bit of weight amongst online activists. Believe me, if anything dodgy had been happening, this vile cybernat would have been screaming it from the rafters.”
Rock: However well educated, intelligent and rational Morag may be, with all due respect, she has absolutely no clue how the black arts department of the British establishment works.
After the last miner’s strike – proved correct about 90% pits closed – thoroughly beaten by Thatcher and her state police force, the deputy leader of the miners piped up and admitted he’d been a government spy all along.
Will Podmore; yes that’s a fact and this latest issue is to do with the VOW and the DR and the official record in Westminster. OK?
Getting seriously fed up with this. What’s wrong with pointing out that LPW has written a long and erudite post on the subject? He’s a lawyer and worth listening to. If you disagree, explain why, don’t just yell at me for mentioning his name.
I’m not going over this vote rigging stuff again, I’m equally fed up with people declaring it must have happened because they say so, even though there’s no credible evidence and actually no practical way it could have happened.
I do suspect the opposition did something extremely underhand and devious and fatal to the Yes campaign. Something possible and achievable and almost predictable if you really think about it. If I mention that I get yelled at too. What’s wrong with you guys?
Morag: Getting seriously fed up with this
But not enough to avoid another long post repeating the same thing, adding, you’re fed up repeating it.
As a matter of interest,is there anyone out there who is still buying the Daily Record?
Just asking.
The Record did have a front page last week featuring one of the low-life morons giving a Nazi salute beside the cenotaph the night of the George Square attack. Turns out he works in childcare for South Lanarkshire? Council. Hopefully this clown will be removed from any contact with weans and will be receiving his jotters in the post.
More cases to come, one thing’s for sure, there would be many a Lanarkshire village minus its village idiot on the night in question.
The reason I want to see 60% or more for yes before going for another ref is that this ref result was such an embarrassment. We need to take our fellow citizens with us not just win by one vote esp as a 60% could go down during the media onslaught i think its a reasonable number to look for in the poles. Again, if we each sign up one other person 45% becomes 90% (wishful but 45% is a good base to start from).
I take your general point, mj, but I don’t think there’s any need to be absolutely prescriptive about 60% opinion polls or any one particular criterion that needs to be met before another referendum can take place.
You’re right that we need to be ahead going in, though. It needs to be seen as an opportunity for the voters to express what is already seem as the popular will.
Im with you Morag!
Grouse Beater,
“After the last miner’s strike – proved correct about 90% pits closed – thoroughly beaten by Thatcher and her state police force, the deputy leader of the miners piped up and admitted he’d been a government spy all along.”
Yes, that is how the black arts department of the british establishment works.
If only Morag could get that in her head.
Morag,
“He’s a lawyer and worth listening to.”
A lawyer “worth listening to”? Like the lawyers who convicted Megrahi?
Lawyers are the lowest of the low.