The Gareth Bale Conundrum
We’ve had a go at this subject once before, but this time we’ve come up with a less hyperbolic analogy. It was sparked by another Twitter comment from Labour spin-doctor John McTernan, which cropped up last night in the middle of some truly abject cringing from “Better Together” campaign director Blair McDougall.
.@bobby_mckail@Dungarbhan@blairmcdougall@Jenemm3 My country is Scotland.
— John McTernan (@johnmcternan) November 7, 2013
We couldn’t help but note the use of the singular.
The question of national identity isn’t something we tend to focus on here as a rule, as we have no interest in “ethnic” nationalism, but it’s one of the great paradoxes of the independence debate. Just a matter of weeks ago, we learned that 62% of Scots considered themselves “Scottish only”, rather than “Scottish and British”, with only 18% identifying as the latter category.
Yet polls still show that two to three times as many as that will actually VOTE to be “Scottish and British” in the independence referendum. So we thought we’d have another try at illustrating how curiously cognitively dissonant that view is, and rather than depict the choice through the prism of war, we decided to use the unifying, uncontroversial cultural phenomenon that is football.
Scotland and England recently played a football match at Wembley to mark the 150th anniversary of the (English) Football Association. It was an exciting and tight contest which see-sawed back and forth, eventually ending in a 3-2 victory for the home side.
The Scottish FA will celebrate its own sesquicentenary in 2023 – just a decade from now. Last year saw a Great Britain football team compete in the Olympics for the first time in almost 40 years. Prior to the Games, several Scottish footballers had expressed their desire to compete for Team GB, despite the national association’s wishes to the contrary, although in the end none were selected.
And we got to pondering what might happen if instead of Scotland v England, the SFA’s 150th-birthday match saw Scotland take on the UK. Now, clearly we have no idea who the footballing stars of 2023 will be, so let’s assume the SFA were marking their 140th anniversary instead and use the players of today.
A properly-representative UK side, reflecting the population of the United Kingdom’s constituent parts, would contain nine English players. (England has 84% of the UK population, and 84% of 11 is 9.24, so in the spirit of the Barnett Formula they’d actually be magnanimously taking less than they strictly deserved.)
Alert readers will already have deduced that with 8.4% of the UK population, Scotland would therefore only technically be entitled to 0.924 of a player, so to be as fair as possible let’s pick tiny wee Crystal Palace midfielder Barry Bannan, who conveniently was also one of those expressing a wish to represent Great Britain in 2012.
Obviously that only leaves one slot in the UK team, so Wales and Northern Ireland would only get one between them (their combined populations actually merit 1.02). And picking the best player from those two nations quite clearly only has one sensible outcome – Real Madrid’s £85m forward Gareth Bale.
(That’s him above, quite clearly being tripped by Scotland’s Shaun Maloney to win a penalty for Wales in a World Cup qualifier in Cardiff last December.)
The likely line-ups, then, would come out like this:
SCOTLAND
(1) A. McGregor (Hull City)
(2) A. Hutton (Aston Villa)
(3) C. Mulgrew (Celtic)
(4) R. Martin (Norwich City)
(5) G. Hanley (Blackburn Rovers)
(6) S. Brown (Celtic)
(7) D. Fletcher (Manchester United) (*we have faith)
(8) J. Morrison (West Bromwich Albion)
(9) S. Naismith (Everton)
(10) R. Snodgrass (Norwich City)
(11) I. Anya (Watford)
UNITED KINGDOM
(1) J. Hart (Manchester City/England)
(2) C. Smalling (Manchester United/England)
(3) L. Baines (Everton/England)
(4) S. Gerrard (Liverpool/England)
(5) G. Cahill (Chelsea/England)
(6) B. Bannan (Crystal Palace/Scotland)
(7) A. Townsend (Tottenham Hotspur/England)
(8) M. Carrick (Manchester United/England)
(9) W. Rooney (Manchester United/England)
(10) D. Welbeck (Manchester United/England)
(11) G. Bale (Real Madrid/Wales)
So our question to those No voters who claim to belong to two countries at the same time is, we presume, obvious. As the teams run out at Hampden Park, which one of those are you cheering for? Which is your country? Or are you neutral?
macgregor is at hull
Typical. Even in a hypothetical, Dons players get ignored.
I’m not even going to watch this match, in protest.
“Yet polls still show that two to three times as many as that will actually VOTE to be “Scottish and British” in the independence referendum.”
Yours didn’t 😉
You ask a question for NO voters on this site?! lol
Might be a while before you get some replies.
No need for the first pic, Rev. 🙁 My mrs recorded the game for me on my return from Wembley. Only watched as far as 2-2. 🙂 Even though I knew the final score it would’ve hurt too much.
More chance Stephen Fletcher than Darren Fletcher and Sturridge for Wellbeck. Bit harsh giving UK wee Barry Bannan, cant we just let Ally McCoist manage them instead?
Well, if you’re goin’ to include Darren Fletcher, you should assume Shaun Maloney will be fit again, so probably wee Gordon would play Maloney instead of Morrison, and go for a diamond formation.
Ah ha, a hard question ??? for some.
Sorry forgot to ask, will there be expenses at halftime ?
why isnt andy murray in our team?
Think we all know the answer to this one Rev. Packed stadium cheering Scotland would have no problem voting No.
Well, at least that’s how it used to be…
Will it be on SKY?
Who was it once said about a year ago, that we wouldn’t be able to get football on SKY if we were independent? Was it Jack McConnell?
Is this a version of the cricket test or Tebbit test.
Don’t think you’ll have many takers from the NO campaign making a choice on the thread.
Ally Who sky?
http://www.wiziwig.tv/competition.php?part=sports&discipline=football
Oooh Rev, you are mischievous…but I like it.
Hell they’re the ones who constantly bang on about what proud Scots they are, so this is a fair premise to throw at them.
Take a wild guess at which jersey I’d be rootin’ fer. Players of today though? I’m still looking for a miracle recovery for Fletcher masel’, so yes he’d be first pick fer me.
I am curious why ” The Rangers” was used considering the club is called Rangers. but if we are using the holding company names then the rest are all wrong…… I have shown my colours but the writer also shown his
I am slack jawed at the total and utter contempt these so called Scot’s hold their own country in. Really , what happened to these people.
Naw we canny, we’re too <insert ambition free comment>. I think the problem we have is too many of these Labourite non achievers are at the helm.
O/T, but I was scrolling through the Rough Justice films (fear factor etc) and I see that they’re crowd funding for a feature-length documentary called Scotland Yet. Target is £20k, raised so far £6k.
Sorry if it’s already been mentioned on WoS: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotland-yet-feature-length-documentary-on-scottish-independence
Rev, the match against Wales was in October last year, not December.
There won’t be many, if any replies from NO’s but they’ll be reading!!
Just imagine – 2-2 and in the final minute of extra time up pops Barry Bannan to score the winner…… Ouch!
Wee Barry might play for a GB team, but no way would he play for rUK against Scotland. Unthinkable.
As posted previously by me.
Answer the following questions with a simple Yes or No!
Do you believe that a country should run its own affairs. Yes or No?
Do you believe that Scotland is a country. Yes or No?
If you have answered Yes to both questions why the hell would you vote No in the referendum?
Although I hartely agree with the terminology below:
(1) A. McGregor (The Rangers)
He is actually at Hull…
Crap, first post points this out..
<sigh>
<hangsheadinshame>
I modelled the likely outcome and it was Scotland 3 UK 1.
The score slightly flattered Scotland due to a 90th minute penalty (Cahill trip on Anya. Anya converting the penalty himself).
After the game Blair McDougal was projected to say, “if we were still better together that would have been 4 great British goals, now we all have to settle for less”.
sorry rev, please delete all this crap.. they didn’t show as posted until I restarted my browser.. sorry….
Why did you have to include a Welshman? Any of the other nations and / or non-foreigners and I can plead neutrality by birth or ancestry. Its a bugger but I’ll have to declare myself a Scotland supporter.
By the way what is this foot-the-ball, why 11 men and no jessies and what does the sky have to do with it?
Flower of Scotland (after a No vote):
O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward’s army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again
The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O’er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward’s army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again
Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
Cause we bottled it badly
And we`ll never be Scotland again
Rolled over like kittens
To blue and red Tories
Too wee, poor and stupid
And feart o` them
@faolie
Thanks for the link.
Money sent.
Come on lads and lassies.
Help spread the word.
Yesitis
Now THAT’S an anthem that brought tears to my eyes.
Wee fitba joke:
“The manager pulled me off at half time”
“You’re lucky, when I played we only got a quarter of an orange”
I’ll be here all day folks!
Alex
Eric Joyce’s response to a comment on his Blog Site:
“The work will be in Scotland regardless of the referendum result. Indeed, with the demise of Portsmouth it seems to me that an independent Scotland would continue to be in prime position for fighting ship contracts in future.”
The only Unionist talking with any sense and honesty on the matter of ship building in Scotland.
http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2013/11/the-labour-partys-gift/#comment-1180
Well, that is a question for No voters – I’m not a no voter..so ..ho hum.
What about the Scottish rugby league team currently playing the World Cup down south? I’ve heard at least half a dozen of them speak, plus the coach, and there are either Lancashire or Aussie accents – don’t know if there are any Scots accents there. But they’ve all worn the kilt to a man and worn them well, and are singing Flower t’ Scotland (badly I must say), and playing brilliantly.
Rugby league barely exists in Scotland, I never watch it myself on TV – yet I’m enjoying watching these guys because they are representing my country. They’ve all eschewed playing for the countries they are living in, including Danny Brough, the player of the year in the English Superleague, and who seems to have chosen Scotland because he fell out with the England manager.
The Danny Brough conundrum – do us Yessers cheer them on?
Tat picture springs to mind again.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/U_lose.jpg
Nice, and a similar analogy to one I used with a Celtic fan. it went as follows:
Who is the best Celtic player right now?
Answer: Samaras
So, imagine Samaras is Scottish. You have a premonition that Samaras will score the winning goal to take Scotland to the World Cup but will be badly injured scoring the goal and out for the season or even more. Would you still want him to play for Scotland?
My colleague said, yes (actually, my colleague is just an undecided, not a Unionist).
The point simply being that we are all tribal, but define our tribes differently, as they do us. Sometimes you can’t be a member of more than one tribe, but often you can. In the independence question, can you be both?
@Yesitis
Like the last verse, though I would change “kittens” to “puppies” – kittens are at their most skin-breaking ferocity when you try to tickle their tummy.
Can I be pedantic and question as to why, if Scotland has ended the union, then why would there would still be a United Kingdom and for that matter a union flag? Surely ending the union that created the United Kingdom in the first place and the flag. You end up with an entirely new nation called ‘The Former United Kingdom’, or ‘England, Wales & N.Ireland’. In addition, you cant have a Union Flag, if you don’t have a union to start with, especially as the current one includes the Scottish Flag. So realistically the new flag for what ever you want to call it will be the St Georges flag superimposed with the St Patricks flag. If Westminster insist that they keep the title of the United Kingdom, it will lead to comparisons with Serbia after the break up of Yugoslavia, as Serbia kept insisting that it was Yugoslavia complete with flag after Yugoslavia had broken up.
You fall into the trap of acceptance that the UK will carry on as normal, resplendent with flags. Which is a falsehood. Internationally it could end up embarrassing for England to cling on to an old identity and equally confusing for other countries, who are told that he UK has ended, but it still carries on. I’m presuming that the English have some pride in their own identity, clearly the politicians that represent them do not.
@ Murray McCallum 2.10pm
😀
I can see this evolving into a party game: What would Blair McDougall say?
Edward
I’m no flag expert and/or lover, but the union flag has nothing to do with the political union. The union flag was created a 100 years earlier to signify the union of crowns. It will remain unchanged as long as Liz, etc remain queen / king of Scots.
The flag enthusiasts can set us right.
@ Chic McGregor 3.00pm
😀 😀
“As the teams run out at Hampden Park, which one of those are you cheering for? Which is your country? Or are you neutral?”
I wonder, if that was posed in a poll, how many would be don’t knows?
Alex Taylor says
“The manager pulled me off at half time”
Now if you went on to say you played for Birmingham now THAT would be interesting,
ah’ll get ma coat
@Edward
“Can I be pedantic and question as to why, if Scotland has ended the union, then why would there would still be a United Kingdom and for that matter a union flag?”
Edward, we’re assuming the SFA were marking their 140th anniversary instead (of 2023) and using the players of today to play the match now.
Team GB’s football team did have a couple of Scottish players at the Olympics. They were lassies who were quite happy to play footie on the big stage and look at their feet when the ‘National’ anthem was played. Fair play to them…
@Chic McGregor 3.00pm
Can I copy that, Chic?
How many of these players are eligible to play for Scotland? Under Margaret Curran’s FIFA selection rules they live in England, so they’re foreigners…..
One thing’s for sure: if we vote to become the laughing stock of the world next September then we don’t deserve our own fitba team. Plenty countries don’t like the UK having 4 teams as it is and it’d be hard to argue that the arrangement should continue.
As an international socialist, I would of course be cheering for both teams and hoping for a draw at half-time. I’m confident that neither team would want to compete in the second half, preferring to work together to ensure that goals are equally distributed amongst *all* national teams, including those not playing. Obviously, the teams may have to play the fixture dozens of times before this actually happens, and frequently get gubbed by Spain in between times, but that is a price worth paying if it gets me a free pie and a shot at a FIFA job.
Rev, What was the cringing that B. McDougal was bringing out?
The Union flag is a royal flag created at the Union of the Crowns in 1603 (and not the 1707 Treaty of Union of the Parliaments). What then is the state flag of the UK?
Speaking of eejits. I heard Alan McGee of Oasis fame on radio five live. his comment was that gordon Strachan wasn’t in the same league as Walter Smith when it came to management. Yet I watched the last two Scotland games and I could have sworn we were passing the ball and not just punting it up the park with a 5-4-1 of Smith fame. Smith was not a good Scotland manager as he walked out that’s how patriotic he is. When he was Scotland manager he said:” We can not have a British team as we need to protect our independence”…same question six months later when he was back at GB headquarters in Ibrox “I am quite comfortable with a GB team it makes sense”…shameful!
If on the morning of the 19th after a successful Yes vote you don’t feel your nationality has changed then you’re a Scot.
John McTernan (born in 1959, London) in an email 2002, “If you’ve not been to Sweden before I think you’ll really like it. It’s the country Scotland would be if it was not narrow, Presbyterian, racist.”
John McTernan (born in 1959, London) on Twitter 2013, “My country is Scotland.”
O/T –
Ms Sturgeon said there were engineering firms around Scotland that have a demand for the kind of skills the Glasgow shipyard workers have. She added: “There are discussions in the early part of next week between the company and the unions where I think we will start to hear some of the detail of the breakdown of the job loss number.”
“Hello is that BP…is that INEOS….well you know that favour we mentioned…”
So who would you support if Aberdeen were playing Scotland Rev?
Why would Aberdeen play Scotland?
One’s a town club, the other is a national club.
Surely the narrow nationalist English BBC will not have their own dedicated programme covering the exploits of England side in 2014 Football Word Cup.
Scotsman reports BBCs Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games coverage TO ERR towards Scots.. but no dedicated coverage of Team Scotland
archive.is/FcUCg
To be honest John McTernan (born in 1959, London) would be supporting Team UK, after all he wouldn’t want to be seen supporting a narrow, Presbyterian and racist country like Scotland. Barry Bannon would be booed by John McTernan (born in 1959, London) as a matter of course being a token narrow-minded Presbyterian racist Team UK player.
When the ‘Union Jack’ was first introduced in 1606, it was known simply as ‘the British flag’ or ‘the flag of Britain’, and was ordered to be flown at the main masthead of all ships, warships and merchant ships, of both England and Scotland.
The first use of the name ‘Union’ appears in 1625. There are various theories as how it became known as the ‘Union Jack’, but most of the evidence points to the name being derived from the use of the word ‘jack’ as a diminutive. This word was in use before 1600 to describe a small flag flown from the small mast mounted on the bowsprit, and by 1627 it appears that a small version of the Union flag was commonly flown in this position. For some years it was called just ‘the Jack’, or ‘Jack flag’, or ‘the King’s Jack’, but by 1674, while formally referred to as ‘His Majesty’s Jack’, it was commonly called the Union Jack, and this was officially acknowledged.
http://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/
Slightly O/T – a reply from eric joyce to a question on his blog
‘One huge problem is that serious players will no longer touch the Scottish Parliament with a bargepole.
There is much evidence for this, but for now I’d simply point to the very strong intake at Westminster in 2010 (none of whom would want to serve in Holyrood in a month of Sundays, two of whom were escaping) and the failure of any very senior MP to take seriously the idea of moving to Holyrood’.
My bold – I assume he means Mags Curren and Cathy Jamieson, neither of whom I would call strong.
But it also shows the contempt the SLAB have for Scotland – they want to prance about on the world stage with the ‘big boys’ and use their constituents to further their own careers.
I also disagree that there are no talented lab people in Scotland – the likes of Alan Grogan for instance
@John McTernan.
I bet you also wear your regional dress from time-to-time.
I’ve invented a new word. Scotbutts. 🙂
I think that just confirms that everyone in the three parties at Westminster really think that Hollyrood is a “wee pretendy parlement”. And none of them want to be seen playing with the “children” who “haven’t realised that yet”.
faolie, thanks ya brain taxer ah hud tae day that 3 times missed oot boxes entered wrange numbers . am fawing appairt at the seams lo ( ah neant tae day that last week bit lost the threed . job done thanks
@Liz
Hi, Liz,
Eric isn’t saying that there are no talented Lab people in Scotland. He’s saying there are few in Holyrood and none in Labour’s Holyrood’s leadership – I assume he means their shadow cabinet.
http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2013/11/the-labour-partys-gift/#comment-1180
handclaping,( whits the SKY goat tae day wi it ) whit day you wannt a black hole ( git ye gone tae the DARK SIDE ( B MC Dougal ,s ) thinks hes goat aw the spades bit we re huding awe the ACE,S LOL
that didna come oot rite
Totally O/T but great joke and it is the week-end so
Condom Factory Burns Down in Birmingham
The largest condom factory in England burned down.
David Cameron was awakened at 4 a.m. by the telephone.
“Sorry to bother you at this hour Sir, but there is an emergency!
I’ve just received word that the Durex factory in Birmingham
has burned to the ground. It is estimated, the entire
English supply of condoms will be used up by the end of the week.”…
Cameron: – “Oh damn! The economy will never
be able to cope with all those unwanted babies.
We’ll be ruined. We’ll have to ship some condoms in from France …”
Telephone voice says, “Bad idea… The French will have a field day with this one.
We’ll be a laughing stock… What about Scotland?”
David Cameron: – “Okay, I’ll call Alex Salmond and tell him we need
Five million condoms, ten inches long and three inches thick.
That way, they’ll continue to respect us as Englishmen.”
Three days later, a delighted David Cameron ran out to open
the first of the 10,000 boxes that had just arrived.
He found it full of condoms, 10 inches long and 3 inches thick,
exactly as requested…
all coloured with tartan thistles with small writing on each one:
MADE IN SCOTLAND –
Size: – SMALL
a séjour in quarantine calls
I’ll never understand the need to be British, its an entity that exists in the mind only, or when Westminster needs cannon fodder for their next war.
I’ve more chance of understanding, Zeno’s paradoxes.
Interestingly Queenspark FC, played in two FA Cup Finals, in 1884/1885, the only Scottish club ever to do so.
bugger ( the panda ) M S resizing wummin clothes HIV we goat tae ask them tae day the same fur ScotsMans trousers Ah fek it ah wearin ma Kilt I ll tuck the Extra in ma Sporran
“Yet polls still show that two to three times as many as that will actually VOTE to be “Scottish and British” in the independence referendum.”
I’m not into national identity much either. And I think the far greater cognitive dissonance with NO voters is the one where polls show most people will vote no, but also show a large majority want control over welfare, taxes, immigration and even sometimes defence. So they’re actually going to vote against what they say they want? I don’t get that at all. The Westmisnter parties couldn’t be clearer that there’s zero chance of anything like that scale of devolution, if all those powers could even be called devolution rather than, y’know, independence.
This doesn’t bode well, He quite clearly asked the no voters.
Cath – I made a point on another story, though can’t remember when and where, but I was wondering whether people would be happier being a crown dependency like Jersey or Isle of Man. They get to be British, but pretty much independent apart from defence, and in theory in terms of foreign relations, though they are consulted and often are left out of arrangements. They aren’t run by Westminster, and they are very happy about it.
Last call – Ardeer Neighbourhood Centre, Stevenston – BT meeting starts 7pm tonight.
Come along, help us give the attendees SSP and/or Albalha’s ‘Aye Right’ leaflets as they go in – then they can have their meeting, but at least, after all the scare stories, they’ll go home with something tae make them think again.
Edward
United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain” So that is clear that it is now recognized and accepted in that first article of the treaty that the title first put by King James is now accepted. There was no mention at all of ‘The United Kingdom’, but was assumed and accepted that “United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain” be condensed down to the united Kingdom of Great Britain.
Excellent so the UK etc only exists because of 1707 and the Treaty between the two Kingdoms. No Ireland and no Wales.
No more Scotland in the political union that is know as The UK etc and no more UK although arguably United Kingdoms of Great Britain could have a shout?
@Ian
Remember also to give them a clove of garlic, a crucifix, and tell them “Now remember, it’s just a story!”
Good luck
@ianb
Good luck tonight, spill all later! Now for accuracy I merely delivered the leaflets to you they come courtesy of Robert in Oban and @G Lessels. I can’t be claiming anyone else’s ideas!
Also folks Any Questions from a church in Bearsden on R4 tonight at 8pm featuring N Sturgeon, I McKee, R Davidson and J Lamont.
Oh and on football can anyone clear up all the confused reporting re Celtic and Ajax. First we were told 44 people arrested, ‘mainly Celtic fans’, today 6 Celtic fans appear in court. What happened to the other 38 and who were they?
DougtheDug says:
“If on the morning of the 19th after a successful Yes vote you don’t feel your nationality has changed then you’re a Scot”.
DtD…I think you just hit the nail on the head!…but I can imagine the head being a bit fragile!
Somebody remind me –
Who was it, ‘Britains former favourite finacial advisor’ the ‘Broon Balloon’, wanted all Scots to support ?
Its on the tip of ma tongue ….
“So who would you support if Aberdeen were playing Scotland Rev?”
What you’ve done there, Willie, is make my point for me. Aberdeen doesn’t claim to be a country.
OT? Scottish skier,s theory gains more credence.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8300-mep-fury-as-westminster-holds-on-to-scots-farmers-eu-cash
John McTernan (born in 1959, London) on Twitter 2013, “My country is Scotland.”
Aye so it is John – (The mans a complete dxck sorry). Go online and listen to the pxsh he utters.
“I am curious why ” The Rangers” was used considering the club is called Rangers.”
Actually it’s called “Hull City”. Really terrible spelling error on my part, sorry everyone.
This question posed will be the vital eleventh hour decision, that may face many swithering voters in September 2014 (and there really is only one natural answer for the true of heart)
O/T
Has anyone heard when the No Scotland side are planning to release the leaked version of the White Paper, (that we all know they will be supplied with by UK cyberhacks) ?
If we follow form that will be the case anyway, anyone picked up any signs ?
About a week beforehand? Anyone? Anyone? (Cynical ? who me ?)
Bale wouldn’t play for that shower, he’d fake a bad back. Ramsey would play instead of him, he has form for it, unfortunately for you guys he’s back to his very best.
Gordoz – do you mean the one with the dodgy TOP SECRET in big red letters in a red box slanted at a jaunty angle?
I’d love to see Scotland v Catalunya in 2023 instead 😀
On a somewhat tenuously linked train of thought.
Has there been any polls or articles about Berwick seceding to Scotland?
Edward says
That’ll be the one – should have said when will Sarwar get hold of it !
Again, off topic (as ever!) I am embarrassed to admit that I am spending Friday night in Stavanger watching Question Time, via a VNP connection, how sad is that?
Onywise, a couple of things struck me (leaving aside the anger that, gulp, English jobs should be sacrificed for political reasons, much as I sincerely sympathise with the workers involved), the first was how well that guy Price came across, and secondly, respect to Anna Soubry, I though she was magnificent in ‘Absolutely Fabulous’,
@WelshnotBritish
According to this 2010 report most would prefer to be in Scotland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8640148.stm
Gordoz – won’t they just release their own made-up straw man version of the White Paper, complete with snarky comments in the margin?
alexicon says
Would that be made of the famous ‘white on white’ tartan ?
WND
Would that be one of the WARNING uk treasury thingies ? ; good for lighting the fire.
Football??? – pretty pictures of wee rats please. The Scottish women’s team does really well. Perhaps the boys should train with them.
GERRY PARKER I posted WED for the AIRDRIE YES MEETING AS WED 6/11 ITS NEXT WED SHYBERRY STADIUM 13 /11 FOR 7.30PM ASK AT THE DESK THEY WILL POINT YOU TO WHITCH ROOM WERE IN IM USELY THERE AT 15 MIN PAST 7 CHEERS
Bugger the panda – in a word Yes 😉
yes also the ‘United Kingdoms of Great Britain’ could have a shout, but how can you have a united which has a plural meaning , when your singular, unless of course your schizophrenic (can you get a schizophrenic country?)
The unionist like to argue that , ‘well yes, but the UK proper started in 1801, when the Kingdom of Ireland was added, so it stands to reason we have a United Kingdom’ Only thing is Ireland as such is no longer a Kingdom as its a Republic, so what is left is a province of the Kingdoms of Great Britain, N.Ireland isn’t even a country, its an appendage technically (you see that on your passport)
Because there is not a proper written constitution, the only documents for referral would be the Treaty of 1706. All subsequent treaties that state Kingdom of Great Britain are subservient to the 1706 treaty. This is regards Ireland. I’m not sure of the standing of any treaty that is signed for the United Kingdom of Great Britain . But as subsequent London Governments have just taken as read that they can keep adding bits here and there and an that there is no written constitution, I think in a machiavellian way its going to be fun when Scotland votes YES
ANYBODY HELP ME OUT A POST WAS PUT UP THE OTHER DAY ABOUT BT REMOVING POSTS ON THERE SITE BUT THE PERSON POSTING CAN STILL SEE THE POST ON THEIR SCREEN ANY LINKS GUYS THANKS
Gordoz – Sarawar has his ‘John Bull’ printing kit out as we speak
Diolch yn fawr Albalha, very good link.
I wonder if there is a “Yes Berwick”?
Gordoz – Almost forgot, here is a sneak look at Sarwars ‘John Bull Printing Outfit No.8’
http://lestaret.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/john-bull.gif
http://lestaret.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/john-bull2.gif
@ cynicalHighlander 6.43
Beat me to it! I was browsing the BBC website and came across this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24874125
and my jaw just dropped. I thought, this just cannot be true!
Basically, some more EU farming subsidy money will be coming the UK’s way because Scotland’s subsidies are below a certain threshold. Not England’s, not Wales’s, not Northern Ireland’s. Scotland’s. The UK only qualified for this top-up money because farming subsidies in Scotland are so poor.
And now Westminsters pockets the money and doles it out all across the UK. Also to English, Welsh and Northern Irish farmers, who wouldn’t have qualified for this extra money if it wasn’t for the Scottish farmers.
The Newsnet article even reprints the letter sent jointly by ALL parties in Holyrood to the UK Government’s Rural Affairs Secretary Owen Paterson.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8300-mep-fury-as-westminster-holds-on-to-scots-farmers-eu-cash
Better Together, indeed!
According to the BBC story
Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael said the UK government was also willing to offer the Scottish government an opportunity to provide extra “coupled payments” of up to 10% in the livestock sector, rather than its allocated 8%.
What? What? First they take your money away, then they offer you the opportunity to make up the shortfall from your own pocket money?!??
In the BBC story, the Tory and Slab rural spokespersons – who had signed the letter to Owen Patterson, asking for all this money to be directed to Scotland – are trying to squirm and make it all right, we’re all Better Together.
Alex Ferguson (tory) reminds Scots farmers that they get £9,000 more per head then farmers in other parts of the UK. He forgets to mention, that they receive in excess of £100 per hectare LESS than other farmers in the UK. Alex Ferguson’s statement just means that farms/estates are bigger in Scotland. (oh yes, the whole land ownership thing, land reform, tenant farmers, crofters… rears its head…)
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/CAP/CAPEurope10112012/budget-facts31102012
Now, I’m no expert in EU farming/rural subsidies, which are fiendishly complicated, but the way it goes in Finland is that the areas least favourable to agriculture get the most money, to help them compete. Finland is a long country north-south, more than 1,000 km (700 miles), so while farmers in southern Finland are planting their crops, the reindeer still dig their lichen from under the snow in northern Finland (Lapland).
@ Edward
Is that Blair MacDougall ?
You know, I hear lots of talk of “public services should be the same in England and Scotland”
I’m pretty sure a lot of them mean: “We want free tuition, free care for the elderly, council tax freezes and everything else those damned Scots are getting for themselves too!”
After a Yes vote next year, how many of us can see “the North” (of England) holding a referendum in say, 2025, to secceed from England to join us?
@WelshnotBritish says:
On a somewhat tenuously linked train of thought.
Has there been any polls or articles about Berwick seceding to Scotland?
Theirs something in the back of my mind that says their was a while back and it didn’t make good reading for Westminster??
I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong but their was a majority voted to be part of Scotland rather than England.
@WelshnotBritish try looking here: http://yesscotland.net/local-groups There’s certainly a group based in Berwickshire.
C x
Here are the results of the Berwick Jury
A vote for Scotland
Slightly O/T – Anyone seen the article in Newsnet about London withholding payment to Scottish farmers of EU agriculture payments amounting to € 60 million per year until 2020.
When pressed, UK will only look at it after the next general election
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8300-mep-fury-as-westminster-holds-on-to-scots-farmers-eu-cash
thieving bastards comes to mind. This should be rammed right up Better Together and everyone should find out whats going on.
Edward,
Was just reading that. It’s absolutely horrific and one to be shouted from the rooftops – While were doing that, we could also mention the rest of the fossil fuel levy money that Westminster refuse to return to us.
If you haven’t read it yet folks, I urge you to do so now
I wonder if there is a yes Berwick
There is, but I live in Glasgow now
@Edward
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-gareth-bale-conundrum/#comment-635707
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-gareth-bale-conundrum/#comment-635770
Edward
Love it!
To answer the question.
i am planning to vote no.
i would support Scotland.
there is no contradiction for me here.
I’m glad you feel no contradiction but sorry that you would rather remain in this undemocratic union which if it goes on the way it is could end up with very few people voting in disgust at the Westminster Government -I’ m sure you have been reading recent comment from England about their Government. Good luck to you though!
faolie says:
“Rough Justice films (fear factor etc) crowd funding for a feature-length documentary called Scotland Yet. Target is £20k, raised so far £6k.”
Worth mentioning again even faolie – they’ve now got £7.2k!
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotland-yet-feature-length-documentary-on-scottish-independence
DougtheDug says:
“If on the morning of the 19th after a successful Yes vote you don’t feel your nationality has changed then you’re a Scot”.
If on the morning of the 19th you don’t feel your legs and your head is throbbing – you’re a Scot.
To me the concept of Britishness is an odd one. It’s a collective pro-noun to describe the nations that make up the UK. Its a geographical term used to describe these isles long before there was a union. As a national identity? How can a collective term ever have its own identity, free of its constituent parts?
A shared common identity, shared history? I can go with that, but that means that it is defined by its constituent parts. You could argue it only exists because of this. When someone defines it from this viewpoint, I am Scottish and British – this to me says they identify with people from England & Wales etc. But their real identity is Scottish. Same for people from England, same for people from Wales. there is nothing at all wrong with that, but lets be honest its not a national identity.
When it comes down to values and culture that’s when the whole British thing starts to unravel. its not just football were this breaks down, its other sports like Cricket…not a lot of love for that sport up here. If we had been using a certain Tories cricket test, its fair to say a huge majority of Scots would have failed it. There is also the disturbing trend of denying Britishness when something has been seen to fail. Look how RBS changed from being a British banking institution to a Scottish bank that needed Britain to bail it out. Look how often Andy Murray became Scottish whenever he lost a game, but only allowed to be British when it appeared he was winning. In the world of business we have the odd notion that we can only succeed if we’re British – inferring something inferior about being Scottish.
Who can forget Darlings odd definition of Britishness as something Scotland needed, or it wouldn’t be able to enjoy sport or British music or British Culture. If Britishness is a shared identity then clearly Scotland contributes to this? Not so for Mr Darling and co. We don’t contribute anything at all, not even towards Britishness. Its almost as if Britishness was something that pre-dated Scotland, which we are allowed to partake in, but only as guests. Not really members, not really British. Its the one aspect of Better together’s campaign that has puzzled me to this day.
Me? I am Scottish – I don’t really feel any connection to the UK anymore than I would America or Germany.
The legacy of Union: To create a national identity no one can define and increasingly no one gives a **** about. Way to go Union
Sorry Stu, hope you haven’t lost some of your female readership with this particular article!
Scotland is part of the British Isles… lets not confuse our geographical land mass with wanting independence.. Africa is a land mass with many independent countries.. Scandinavia… Europe… Asia.. America… when Scotland votes YES, maps printed in 10 years time will still refer to our land mass as ‘The British Isles’ my reasons for voting yes is to get rid of westminster not Britain and Scotland to completely govern itself …
Well the SNP were saying a few months ago that one could still call themselves British and that Scotland would remain part of many unions>>>>I won’t take lectures on having my Britishness denigrated or my Scottishness for they are one and the same. After all the Declaration gf Arbroath tells me that Britons were living in what is now Scotland before they were expelled on the arrival of those Scots>>>When i say British i am in no way inferring the patronage of Westminster in all that entailes…We the people are the union and i am of proud of my country and these Isles. I have scots/irish parentage…a welsh name and I came to Scotland with an English Hampshire accent.
Morgan- if you believe the Declaration of Abroath as an accurate depiction of the history and politics of the foundation of Scotland as accurate- don’t. The rise of the Scots kingdom is a story of assimilation and mergers, culturally, politically and linguisticlllay and is far more complex and interesting than popular history lets us believe. When most people refer to ‘Britishness’ outwith the geographic sense, they mean the post 1603/1707 sense of it. I’ve never referred to myself as british in any sense of the word. Scottish and earthling and proud of it 🙂
I draw the point. For there are some who seem to think the Dec of Arbroath, is as you say a accurate reflection and worthy of a junket to the States to celebrate why it influenced the Declaration of Independence. Even though it suggests ethnic cleansing…Even if I was to define myself as a Briton on the basis of my geographical location rather than political affiliation> The term is looked upon as having an affiliation with Westminster bubble politics when for some it isn’t.