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The Devo Nano Policy Explosion

Posted on March 28, 2014 by

We’ve had a second response from a Labour elected representative to a reader, regarding our six simple factual questions about the party’s “Devo Nano” proposals for the Scottish Parliament. This one’s from Richard Baker, regional MSP for North East Scotland and Labour’s former Shadow Finance Secretary.

richardbaker

We were extremely surprised by its contents. You can read the reply, stripped only of two paragraphs of introductory waffle about Keir Hardie, below.

“Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.

Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country, and in which those with the broadest shoulders and greatest resources contribute most to the support of those in need.

Our report is wide-ranging and includes a number of recommendations, including:

  • Further devolution of income tax, discussed in more detail below.
  • Devolution of housing benefit and attendance allowance, to align more closely the provision of benefits in an area closely related to devolved services.
  • Devolution of the work programme to Scottish local authorities to better meet the needs of local labour markets.

The report of the commission is extensive and also includes proposals to increase the powers available to our island communities, to improve local democratic accountability and to establish better enforcement mechanisms for health and safety in Scotland, including the establishment of a Scottish Health and Safety executive.

On income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.

  • Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
  • We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
  • This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
  • The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
  • Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
  • Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.

Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.

Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website.

Yours sincerely,

Richard Baker MSP

North East Scotland”

The reason for our surprise is that the passages in the letter that we’ve highlighted above do in fact directly address all but one of the six questions – Mr Baker states unequivocally that Scotland would be able to undercut the UK on all tax bands, and also to have higher rates across all tax bands.

And that’s very interesting indeed, because it’s completely at odds with what Johann Lamont told Gordon Brewer on Newsnight Scotland last week:

BREWER: What happens if, let’s say, the Scottish Parliament decided to put the top rate of tax up to 50p, and lots of high earners just left or based themselves in England, and they thought “Ooh, well that wasn’t a very good idea, let’s put it back down again”, would they be forbidden from doing that?

LAMONT: No, they can do that.

BREWER: But I thought you said they couldn’t put it down?

LAMONT: What they can’t do, they can’t reduce it below what the level is set at a UK level.

Lamont further clarifies the answer later in the interview:

BREWER: What if Ed Balls should become Chancellor of the Exchequer and he says “Right, I’m going to put the top rate up to 50p”, can the Scottish Parliament say no, we’re not going to do that, we’ll just keep it at 45?

LAMONT [after pause]: I wouldn’t have thought so. Why would we, you know, why would we do that?

BREWER: Well, would we have the power to do that, that’s what I’m asking.

LAMONT: The power we’ve got is not to cut below what the UK rate is, so the UK rate is set and then we can’t cut below that.

We’ve read and re-read all the quotes, and we can’t see any way out. Johann Lamont unequivocally said that Scotland COULD NOT have a top rate of tax lower than the UK’s. Richard Baker equally unequivocally says “The Scottish Parliament could [..] choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.”

Uncharitably, one of them is lying. Or charitably, Labour themselves don’t have a clue what their actual policy is, after spending two years coming up with it.

Johann Lamont also said in the same interview that:

“What we don’t want is a position – the concern of course around Corporation Tax – is tax competition.

We took the judgement that actually there might be an issue, if you had the flexibility to cut as well as raise the top level, you might create a degree of tax competition across the United Kingdom.”

Yet what Richard Baker has explicitly and unambiguously outlined is a situation where you COULD have completely free tax competition between Scotland and the UK, across all tax bands. The only restriction would be that if Scotland cut or raised taxes relative to the UK, it would have to do so across all bands simultaneously.

(Unless it was just the upper rate, in which case it could put it up but not down. Except you could put it down so long as you didn’t go below the UK level. As long as you put all the other rates down at the same time, creating exactly the competition between parts of the UK Labour claim to be determined above all else to avoid.)

We look forward to further clarification with great interest.

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  1. G H Graham says:

    And by Monday Richard Baker will have had his arse slapped & we will be given an official “clarification”.

    Probably.

  2. Arbroath 1320 says:

    How embarrassing…AGAIN!

    Lamont says one thing and Baker says another, neither one agreeing with the other. I may be wide of the mark here but I’d suggest there seems to be a wee bit of utter confusion amongst the rank and file in the Labour party.

  3. The Man in the Jar says:

    I have just received a reply from Siobhan McMahon at 16:31 today 28/04/2014

    I have posted it on the original article but here it is.

    Dear Mr. *****

    Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.

    As you may be aware, in spring 2012, Johann Lamont established a Devolution Commission to examine what could be done to strengthen devolution further. Following two years of deliberations and a year-long public consultation, our proposals were published on 18th March.

    With regard to income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.

    · Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
    · We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
    · This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
    · The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
    · Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
    · Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.

    Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

    Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.

    Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website at http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/campaigns/entry/devolution-commission

    Yours sincerely

    Siobhan McMahon MSP
    Member of the Scottish Parliament for Central Scotland

  4. Holebender says:

    I have already replied to the e-mail to which the text quoted above was attached, asking exactly Stu’s question. Either Mr. Baker or Mrs. Lamont is mistaken and I have asked for clarification.

  5. Seasick Dave says:

    Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country, and in which those with the broadest shoulders and greatest resources contribute most to the support of those in need.

    That wouldn’t be something for nothing would it?

    Johann is not going to like that.

  6. David says:

    At last! Clarity from Labour!!!1!

    (I’m being sarcastic.)

  7. WeAreAllBourgeoisNow says:

    Long time reader de-lurking to comment :). This is almost identical to a reply I got from Siobhan McMahon!

  8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Gosh, Siobhan McMahon seems to have come up with something terribly similar to what Richard Baker did, except without the bit about Keir Hardie.

    So it seems awfully like nobody just mis-spoke: this is an official line sent out by the party. How very intriguing.

  9. Harry says:

    I received a similarly detailed reply from Siobhan McMahon this afternoon. In fact, it may be identical just glancing through both replies.

  10. alexicon says:

    I consider myself as an average intelligent man, but for the life of me I have no idea what Labour are saying apart from muddle.
    It’s like some sort of Monty Python sketch.

  11. The Man in the Jar says:

    I have just read through the email from Siobhan McMahon and am thinking to myself. Haud on thats not what Johann Lamont told Brewer on the BBC!

    “The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.”

    Keech!

  12. Wayne says:

    I have to say the more I think about it this plan was pure genius. There is just no way anything good for Labour can come from it and because as MPs and MSPs they need to be available to all constituents of whatever political hue, they can’t just ignore us all either.

    After the SPT free advertising bonanza what a great week for Wings and the YES campaign more generally. BT are publicly imploding and have nowhere left to go.

  13. Juteman says:

    Have you not mixed up ‘would’ and ‘could’, Stu?
    Apologies if I’ve read it wrong.

  14. Tamson says:

    Interesting that MacMahon chose to cut and paste Baker’s version. She’s another Labour dynastic politician, her dad being Michael MacMahon MSP, and she was a very public supporter of Lamont in the leadership election. You’d have thought she’d at least try to stick closer to the Lamont line.

    Meanwhile Baker is trying to fill his boots at Westminster, as he’s angling to take over from Frank Doran in Aberdeen North 2015, so he probably doesn’t give a toss what he says regarding devolution.

    It’ll be entertaining to see how many versions of the Labour policy we end up with.

  15. Chris Cairns says:

    Getting Labour to explain their policies is like asking a drunk to recite the seven times table backwards. Funny and tragic at the same time.

  16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Have you not mixed up ‘would’ and ‘could’, Stu?”

    No. Johann absolutely clearly says that under her plan the Scottish Parliament CAN’T undercut the UK. Baker says it can if it wants to. There’s no possible way of misconstruing what either of them said.

    It can’t just be Johann mangling her words as usual either, because she goes on to say totally unambiguously that the point of the plan is that there can’t be tax competition, and no race to the bottom. Yet if Scotland and the rUK can undercut each other on every tax band, that’s exactly what you’ve got.

    This is dynamite, readers, and I’m not sure you’re all fully appreciating just how big it is.

  17. Bobby Mckail says:

    Richard Baker was always the black Sheep of the Labour family. It takes a special kind of stupid to be the black Sheep in Labour. £500,000000 he said knife crime was costing the NHS in Scotland!?

  18. Juteman says:

    I understand what you are saying Stu, but he is using the C word.

  19. Les Wilson says:

    And the Band played, believe it if you like!

    I do not!

  20. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I understand what you are saying Stu, but he is using the C word.”

    Jute! FFS! I know he is!

    Let me try to spell it out.

    Johann says undercutting WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE, and that preventing such undercutting is the entire point of “Devo Nano”.

    Baker says undercutting WOULD BE COMPLETELY POSSIBLE. He’s just shot her down in flames.

    Whether Labour would actually plan to undercut the rUK if elected isn’t the point here. The point is whether the Scottish Parliament would have the ABILITY to. Johann said it wouldn’t, Baker’s just said she was talking out of her hole.

  21. Barbara Watson says:

    I’m none the bloody wiser at this response, the only thing that frightens the living daylights out of me is the thought of Labour being in charge of any taxation.

    Did GB as Chancellor not introduce something like 75 stealth taxes? Between that and JoLa’s trick with her sums I could never trust them, they are rotten and corrupt at their very core.

  22. proudscot says:

    Meanwhile, lurking in the wings are the Westminster Labour MPs Gasworks Gang, led by Separashun Davidson, brandishing his bayonet. As far as they’re concerned, Holyrood will be getting NO further powers, and in fact could very likely lose some of those they already possess!

    So much for all the crap we are now being fed by the MSM and BBC, that a NO vote will result in all 3 unionist parties agreeing to more devolution to Holyrood.

  23. James Kelly says:

    I think to be fair Johann Lamont did make it clear in those interviews (or as clear as she ever makes anything) that it would be possible to reduce the top rate of tax below the UK level, as long as exactly the same proportionate reduction is made across all bands. It’s only increases that don’t have to be done across all bands. It’s a bonkers policy, but that’s what she’s defending.

  24. WallaceBruce says:

    My reply from Iain Gray MSP for East Lothian. Seems there is a pattern developing here!

    Dear ******

    Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.

    The Labour Party is the Party of devolution. Our founder, Keir Hardie, promoted Home Rule in the early 1900s, we participated in the Constitutional Convention in the 1980s and in 1999 we delivered a Scottish Parliament. In 2012, we extended these powers further when we supported the Scotland Act. And in 2016, as a result of these changes, the biggest transfer of fiscal powers since the Act of Union will take place.

    In spring 2012, Johann Lamont established a Devolution Commission to examine what could be done to strengthen devolution further. Following two years of deliberations and a yearlong public consultation, we published our proposals on 18th March. The final report of the Commission was endorsed unanimously by Scottish Labour Party Conference on 21st March.

    Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country, and in which those with the broadest shoulders and greatest resources contribute most to the support of those in need.

    Our report is wide-ranging and includes a number of recommendations, including:

    • Further devolution of income tax, discussed in more detail below.
    • Devolution of housing benefit and attendance allowance, to align more closely the provision of benefits in an area closely related to devolved services.
    • Devolution of the work programme to Scottish local authorities to better meet the needs of local labour markets.

    The report of the commission is extensive and also includes proposals to increase the powers available to our island communities, to improve local democratic accountability and to establish better enforcement mechanisms for health and safety in Scotland, including the establishment of a Scottish Health and Safety executive.

    On income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.

    • Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
    • We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
    • This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
    • The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
    • Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
    • Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.

    Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

    Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.

    Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website at http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/campaigns/entry/devolution-commission

    Yours sincerely
    Iain Gray MSP

  25. Juteman says:

    He says COULD, not WOULD, or am I blind?
    It’s all you fault that I am puzzled, as I have studied your manual for cult members on the Could/Would reality. 🙂

  26. Murray McCallum says:

    “The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.”

    Didn’t we all know that? Of course the “reductions” would only follow prior increases!

    They may be being a bit devious (totally out of character) with the wording.

  27. Les Wilson says:

    Barbara Watson says:

    Barbara, I am not sure just how many stealth taxes Brown brought in, there was another one every few days, at least it felt like that.
    Hence my name for him G.Brown = “The Pickpocket”!

  28. Craig Brown says:

    As mentioned before, they are trying to offer us powers that deem to counter bad policies and bad decisions made by Westminster whilst not allowing us to make actual change. They want the Scottish government to look equally guilty. The recent proposed cap on welfare. Is a prime example of ridiculously bad decision making by all parties.

  29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think to be fair Johann Lamont did make it clear in those interviews (or as clear as she ever makes anything) that it would be possible to reduce the top rate of tax below the UK level, as long as exactly the same proportionate reduction is made across all bands.”

    Dear God, what part of “they can’t reduce it below what the level is set at a UK level” are people not grasping here?

    As I’ve said above – you could attribute that simply to Johann’s masterful mangling of English if it stood alone. But she explicitly, utterly unambiguously says there can be NO TAX COMPETITION between Scotland and the rUK.

    If you can cut every rate of tax below the rUK level (just so long as you cut them all at once), THAT IS TAX COMPETITION. That is tax competition TO THE MAX.

    That is firing the starting gun on the “race to the bottom” that Labour spent ALL LAST WEEK saying they had to prevent at all costs.

    I might pop a blood vessel shortly. The biggest story we’ve ever broken and NOBODY understands it?

  30. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “He says COULD, not WOULD, or am I blind?”

    I’m seriously going to ban you in a minute. You’re not listening to a frigging word I’m saying.

  31. Bobby Mckail says:

    No Johann Lamont definitely said you could not lower ther rate of tax. The two letters that are on here from Baker and McMahon seem to contradict what their leader said to Gordon Brewer??

    She’s either stupid ( I know) but I think She defo wld have gone over the basic’s of knowing that they were advocating, not being able to lower the top rate. The Labour line is deliberately telling folk porkies.

  32. G H Graham says:

    Stu is right. I listened to Lamont’s interview and she made it absolutely clear that reducing income tax BELOW UK levels was not possible under any circumstance.

    She said that it would lead to independence through the back door and result in a tax threshold race to the bottom.

    Baker says the opposite; that cutting Scottish income tax BELOW UK is a possibility.

    The explanations clearly contradict each other which is why I am predicting an “official” clarification” will be coming shortly which may include some back peddling.

    After all, if Lamont insists that competitive tax levels is independence via the back door, why on earth would they offer it as an option?

    I still expect a re-calibration in the next few days, some arses to be kicked & some back peddling.

  33. Murray McCallum says:

    “below the UK level”

    Sorry, yes someone is not telling the truth.

  34. Proud Cybernat says:

    Why so surprised, Stu? It’s well understood that Labour say one thing in public and then another thing in public.

  35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “No Johann Lamont definitely said you could not lower ther rate of tax. The two letters that are on here from Baker and McMahon seem to contradict what their leader said to Gordon Brewer??”

    ————————-

    “Stu is right. I listened to Lamont’s interview and she made it absolutely clear that reducing income tax BELOW UK levels was not possible under any circumstance.

    She said that it would lead to independence through the back door and result in a tax threshold race to the bottom.

    Baker says the opposite; that cutting Scottish income tax BELOW UK is a possibility.”

    ————————-

    Thank the Lord. I was starting to think I’d lost my mind.

  36. G H Graham says:

    P.S. I forgot to add that I am looking forward to Labour extracting themselves out of this policy statement since it appears they have made a pigs breakfast out of it.

    Again.

  37. rab_the_doubter says:

    Well, at least these are a step up from the snide nasty wee email I got from Tom Harris.

    The Labour Party is rapidly self combusting and its a disaster for anyone who cares about social justice.

  38. Vronsky says:

    Suggest you publish all the answers, Rev. Shouldn’t take much space.

  39. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Well, at least these are a step up from the snide nasty wee email I got from Tom Harris.”

    Yeah, quite aside from anything else this makes him look a total dick. Although from his perspective, at least he just looks like a dick, not a total idiot.

  40. The Man in the Jar says:

    I am positive that these emails from Labour were held back for a Friday afternoon hoping that they will be forgotten about come Monday.

    Wrong again!

  41. G H Graham says:

    Deep intake of breath everyone, while one figures out how painful we can make this for Labour over the next few days & weeks.

    After all, this is a political disaster for them in the making.

    And we all made it happen.

    DELIBERATELY ! LOL

  42. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I still expect a re-calibration in the next few days, some arses to be kicked & some back peddling.”

    Aye. But the only way they can do that is by answering the questions “definitively”, while also looking totally inept for creating the confusion in the first place, so it’s a win-win-win.

  43. Juteman says:

    Got it now.
    I’m glad someone explained it properly. 🙂

  44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Suggest you publish all the answers, Rev.”

    Um, we have.

  45. Croompenstein says:

    Who the f*ck has composed the party line email that they are circulating for the drones to send out as ‘replies’ to specific questions?

  46. gman says:

    I’m with you rev.

    Situation crazy.

    Lamont was wrong in her interview?
    Why put out a response that contradicts your leader?

    Incompetence / a revision / a challenge….

  47. The penman says:

    They’ve gone to the effort of drafting a standard reply to our emails. Fair enough, it makes life easier and means everyone in the party is consistent.

    Except their leader in Scotland.

    Hilarious!

  48. Hotrod Cadets says:

    Hold on. So could Scotland reduce all tax bands below UK levels, then using SPR increase top bands back to parity with UK? i.e. a tax cut specifically for lower earners?

  49. Lanarkist says:

    “Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.”

    How does this square with being able to lower or raise all tax bands relating to tax bands in England, Wales and N.I.

    Was this Gentleman really Former Shadow Finance Spokesman, oh wait I see, the clue is in “former”.

  50. James Kelly says:

    “Dear God, what part of “they can’t reduce it below what the level is set at a UK level” are people not grasping here?”

    Yes, I know she said that, but she directly contradicted it elsewhere in the same interview. I presume the point being that she’s making it politically impossible to reduce the top rate of tax, because it’s already established that no party (except maybe the Tories) would ever reduce the basic rate of income tax below the UK level, which is what reducing the top rate would entail.

  51. The penman says:

    @ Croompenstein: that’s the key question! Because whoever it was behind the scenes has a different take on it than JoLa.

  52. Bobby Mckail says:

    I thought that most folk actually seen the Brewer interview, She was absolutely sure on that point abt not being able to lower top rate tax, but was her usual self on everything else.

  53. Murray McCallum says:

    I wonder if Johann Lamont is secure in her position as leader?

    Labour MSPs openly ignoring policies and her own specific televised statements.

  54. David McCann says:

    Well lets be clear about this..uhu uhu, we took advice on this, and will make it clearer before 2016..uhu, that is unless it’s a false choice.uhu,uhu.
    One thing is very clear- and our experts tell us this, we will not steal the eyes out of our head, unless we have an honest debate, following a honest conversation, of course, on both sides of the moon.

  55. Derrick says:

    Any minute now, young Hothersal will be along to deploy that mind-warping, definition-stretching sophistry he`s made his own in a clear and detailed explanation of this apparent anomaly and WHOOSH, in an instant all the confusion will be gone.
    No, really.
    Just you wait.

  56. rabb says:

    So it seems awfully like nobody just mis-spoke: this is an official line sent out by the party. How very intriguing.

    I would say it’s a fucking outrageous bare faced lie. These are educated people who know exactly what they’re doing.

    In my opinion what we are witnessing people is our elected representatives knowingly lying to constituents. Morally repugnant and an affront to democracy.

    First they vote to punish the poorest and most vulnerable in our society along with the tories & then they see fit to knowingly lie to us.

    Labour are dead!

  57. The penman says:

    @James Kelly: the point is that ScotLab are trying to push the SNP as Tartan Tories. And smear them as wanting tax cuts for the rich. Which, as we all know, is Westminster’s job.

    So their plans as detailed by JoLa specifically ban undercutting rUK. But apparently don’t according to these emails.

  58. G H Graham says:

    Unlikely though it is, if Scotland remains in the Union & Labour win the next General Election & then get this part of Devo Nano approved through Commons AND Lords, then it means that Scotland could set preferential & lower tax rates for the poor while raising it for the rich.

    But only when these three phases have been successfully passed.

    Sure, it’s a political pigs breakfast for Labour, but none of this is likely to happen anyway.

    Having said all that, I’m still looking forward to the shambolic limbo dancing, bullet dodging & two faced bullshit from Labour.

  59. Wayne says:

    Stu, take a deep breath!

    What is truly bizarre here is that we know that Labour are ALL OVER this site always checking up on what we nasty dangerous nefarious subversive cybernats are up to, so you would think that an organisation as sophisticated as Labour would have the good sense to come up with a stock response which at least doesn’t contradict what the mighty JoLo had said previously. Or would that require too much communication and planning?

    Instead they jump straight into the trap and give us more ammunition to point out how contradictory their public statements are.

  60. James Kelly says:

    “So their plans as detailed by JoLa specifically ban undercutting rUK. But apparently don’t according to these emails.”

    And according to Lamont herself in the televised interviews. I don’t think there’s any point in pretending she didn’t admit it. In fact, that admission was part of what contributed to it being such a car crash.

  61. Vronsky says:

    I know it’s a bit Zen, and hard to get your head around – but if two Labour people say absolutely opposite things, both are lying.

  62. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “In my opinion what we are witnessing people is our elected representatives knowingly lying to constituents. Morally repugnant and an affront to democracy.”

    But the freaky thing is, they KNOW these questions come from Wings Over Scotland. They KNOW we’re going to be all over it with a fine-tooth comb. Surely not even Scottish Labour are so thick they didn’t think we’d notice?

  63. Proud Cybernat says:

    JolA–nonsense on stilettos.

  64. Mealer says:

    That’s good news from Richard Baker.Now,if we could just get them to agree that the Scottish government should set and collect all other taxes and revenues including oil,whisky and VAT,and decide how to spend them,we might be able to find some common ground.
    Of course,Trident will have to go.And the House of Lords.

  65. JamesLSnook says:

    The key bit would appear to be on p.151, para 361, of the document on their website:

    ‘The Scotland Act enables the Scottish Parliament to increase or decrease income tax rates in Scotland. In addition to extending this power, we will also introduce new Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax, so that the Scottish Parliament can increase the rates of tax in the
    higher and additional bands.’

    So all bands can be raised and lowered together, or the top bands can be raised – but not lowered. So Scotland is structurally forbidden from having a lower top rate than the UK, unless all rates are lower. As has been said by others, it’s a way of restricting tax varying powers so as to make them – like now – too blunt or crude to be much use.

    In which case, Baker and co are right, and Lamont is – well, confused. Unless I’m confused. Which, since it’s Friday evening, I might be.

  66. big_al says:

    On a slightly different note….

    “Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country

    This is obviously deliberate to reinforce in peoples minds the ‘country’ being the UK rather than Scotland.

    My pet hate.

    Scotland is a country.

    UK is NOT a country.

    Ends…..

  67. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Yes, I know she said that, but she directly contradicted it elsewhere in the same interview. I presume the point being that she’s making it politically impossible to reduce the top rate of tax, because it’s already established that no party (except maybe the Tories) would ever reduce the basic rate of income tax below the UK level, which is what reducing the top rate would entail.”

    No. That’s utterly not what she said. She said “We can’t have this power at all, because it would risk tax competition, and tax competition would take a great big dump all over the entire concept of the Union, so we’ve made sure that Scotland can’t undercut UK rates.”

    She doesn’t know who’s going to be in power next. But she’s spent months castigating the SNP over competing on Corp Tax, and she must know the SNP are probably going to win in 2016 no matter what, so she can’t have Labour hand them the power to cut Income Tax below UK levels either, or they might use it (for the exact same reasons they want to cut Corp Tax).

    Go back and watch the interview. She couldn’t have been any more clear if she’d tattooed on on Brewer’s forehead. NO TAX COMPETITION BETWEEN SCOTLAND AND THE RUK. And now Richard Baker (and the others) say “Yeah, fuck it, let’s have ALL the tax competition”.

  68. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Hold on. So could Scotland reduce all tax bands below UK levels, then using SPR increase top bands back to parity with UK? i.e. a tax cut specifically for lower earners?”

    Yes. Once again, blowing a hole the size of a battleship in Johann’s claims. (That’s basically what Question 4 asked.)

  69. The penman says:

    See the Rev’s response. And http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-litany-of-idiocy as well.

  70. Bobby Mckail says:

    Stu, take a deep breath!

    What is truly bizarre here is that we know that Labour are ALL OVER this site always checking up on what we nasty dangerous nefarious subversive cybernats are up to, so you would think that an organisation as sophisticated as Labour would have the good sense to come up with a stock response which at least doesn’t contradict what the mighty JoLo had said previously. Or would that require too much communication and planning?

    I think you give them too much credit, these people really are that stupid. As proved many times.

  71. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Just everyone can get their head’s round what Lamont did and didn’t say here are links to three videos from Labour’s conference weekend.

    To be fair this first video is from Newsnight Scotland a few nights before the start of the conference.

    http://tinyurl.com/nb8de3k

    This video is of her interview with Brian Taylor on the Saturday of Labour’s conference.

    http://tinyurl.com/ncz5udn

    This third video is of her interview on Politics Scotland on the Sunday.

    http://tinyurl.com/kx94vws

    Hopefully there is something in amongst these videos that can smooth some of the rough waters around what she did or didn’t say. 😛

  72. Bobby Mckail says:

    Sorry missed out the apostrophiies. bad bobby!

  73. James Kelly says:

    “Go back and watch the interview.”

    I’ve watched it twice already, and that’s more than enough! She was pressed elsewhere in the interview, and admitted that the top rate of tax could be reduced, but only if all the other bands were reduced at the same time. She evidently regarded that as a relatively unimportant detail (presumably because it would make it politically impossible to reduce the top rate), hence the apparent contradiction if you take all her comments absolutely literally.

    I think the nature of the proposals are clear enough. The real problem is that they’re bonkers.

  74. Stevie says:

    Baker is special – he is the author of the 2011 knife-carrying mandatory arrest Labour policy that was based on gibberish financial figures he read in a newspaper somewhere and that were complete nonsense. Man’s a typical Labourite thicko – not a lone there n=in that party.

  75. Kirsty says:

    Wait, wasn’t the whole point of Johann Lamont’s statement about not being able to lower taxes below UK levels that tax competition = independence by the backdoor? How are they going to square that? Also, is it just me or is Johann Lamont being hung out to dry here? Since the official party line now seems to be diametrically opposed to what she said they’re making her look utterly incompetent and unable to even grasp her own party’s policies.

    Are they just by-passing her completely now? Are they going to replace her as “leader in Scotland”? I can’t see how they can back pedal from “no tax competition” to “tax competition’s fine” without making her look too incompetent to remain in her position.

  76. rabb says:

    But the freaky thing is, they KNOW these questions come from Wings Over Scotland. They KNOW we’re going to be all over it with a fine-tooth comb. Surely not even Scottish Labour are so thick they didn’t think we’d notice?

    Or maybe they just want rid of Lamont?

    Make her look like a tool in public then sit back for the inevitable resignation?

    Replace her with someone who can be a bit more shouty come the next Scotland Tonight debate?

    Or perhaps they really are that monumentally stupid?

  77. davidhk says:

    Got same stock response from Siobhan McMahon

    Dear Mr *****

    Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.

    As you may be aware, in spring 2012, Johann Lamont established a Devolution Commission to examine what could be done to strengthen devolution further. Following two years of deliberations and a year-long public consultation, our proposals were published on 18th March.

    With regard to income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.

    •         Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
    •         We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
    •         This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
    •         The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
    •         Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
    •         Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.

    Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

    Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.

    Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website at http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/campaigns/entry/devolution-commission

    Yours sincerely

    Siobhan McMahon MSP
    Member of the Scottish Parliament for Central Scotland

  78. moujick says:

    @Hotrod Cadets

    My understanding is that under their proposal the differential between bands needs to be maintained so it would be “No” to your scenario – could be wrong though maybe we should discuss before Thursday – 😉

  79. Croompenstein says:

    Looks like your right Kirsty, JoLa presumably didn’t proof read this standard reply so who composed it and on whose authority?

  80. Findlay Farquaharson says:

    Well i think its just totally unacfuckinceptable that these individuals are politicians representing people. Its staggering.

  81. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    There appears to be hesitation and confusion in the media about reporting Labour. Wacky Jackie generally gets only dismissive comment following yestewrday’s slap down and Iain Gray is saying a lot again but nobdy is paying attention. One gets the feeling that all confidence in Joahann Lamont has gone but the alternatives look no better.

  82. Murray McCallum says:

    It would seem Johann Lamont either did not understand her own proposals or was unable to explain them to Gordon Brewer.

    I wonder if Labour MSPs simply got fed up waiting for Johann Lamont to correct her misstatement (or they could not get her to understand the issue) and wanted to get this sorted?

    Is that the OneNation thing over now? That didn’t last long.

  83. kininvie says:

    It’s straight out of The Thick of It. I would do a transcript of the latest episode, but there would be too much swearing for this site…

    But in true Tucker fashion, we will end up with Lamont not saying what she didn’t say and everyone agreeing that she didn’t say it, while the new line is spun to all Wings Readers that what the Devolution Proposals actually say is very different from what you think they said, and that it was your fault for not understanding that.

  84. James Davidson says:

    I got the exact same reply from Iain Gray, Constituency MSP, East Lothian.
    It began with a nod to Keir Hardy – they would not recognise any of Keir Hardy’s principles if they were sitting on their bottom lips.

  85. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rev –

    ‘But the freaky thing is, they KNOW these questions come from Wings Over Scotland. They KNOW we’re going to be all over it with a fine-tooth comb. Surely not even Scottish Labour are so thick they didn’t think we’d notice?’

    Curiouser and curiouser…

    This gives plausible deniability to those inside SLab who’ve known for months that Lamont is toast, but didn’t dare raise their voices at Perth – they can claim they were instructed to respond to constituents using this ‘early unproofed draft’ (or somesuch shite) which, by some unfortunate oversight, Lamont hadn’t yet approved.

    This could be the night of the long knives for JoLa – best start ticking-off all those who’ve sent out this thing, and see if there are any obvious connections between them.

    Someone inside SLab is at it big-time.

  86. James Davidson says:

    Sorry that should have been Hardie , not Hardy.

  87. Sandy M says:

    Guys, remember the Napoleon quote. Johann needs our support! Central office may well be lining her up for the chop. She is as dispensable to Labour as Alistair Darling is to the Tories. Will it be the nasty Cybernats shown to be wielding the blade? Even if it turns out to be a bayonet? Lee Harvey Oswald ring any bells?

  88. Paula Rose says:

    Darlings – seeing as how ‘labour’ are all over this site and avidly reading our posts (and being idiotic) perhaps we should recommend a decent sparring partner – after all (and this is serious) a proper debate would be of benefit to all.

  89. liz says:

    Re getting rid of JoLa – Jenny Marra’s name is cropping up a lot.

    She would be much more professional and articulate – let’s face a baby would also.

    But she is still UKOK through and through.

  90. Alan Mackintosh says:

    O/T Rev have you seen this

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26764929

    You would need more than a spare cable if you had this one at home and it got out

  91. G H Graham says:

    Start listening at 8 min 40 secs during this interview with Lamont & Brewer on Newsnight Scotland.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li8kFWfPJbc

    and at 10 mins 1 secs she says quite clearly …

    “We don’t want tax competition …”

  92. Murray McCallum says:

    “Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.”

    Both Johann Lamont and Richard Baker MSP say this, while both totally contradicting each other on the excat mechanism to do it.

    At least Johann’s (apparently ill informed) reasoning was consistent with the objective.

  93. rab_the_doubter says:

    @James Davidson

    I think that as far as the current labour party is concerned their policies are defined by Hardy – and his pal Laurel.

  94. Arbroath 1320 says:

    S’no fair all you folks getting replies from your favourite Labour M.P. or M.S.P. and here’s me still waiting. It’s no fair I tell you. It’s no just my Labour M.S.P. either SPT haven’t replied to me yet either whatever is going on, is there something about us in South of Scotland that makes folks no want to write to us or something? 🙂

    We don’t bite…much.

    We don’t bark…much.

    We don’t snarl…much.

    If we don’t start getting answers soon though then we may very well start biting, barking and snarling. 😛

    Perhaps it’s my Gaelic e-mail address that’s putting them of, YES that’s it it’s my e-mail address. Phew, just for a wee while there I thought it was something serious like them not having any answers. 🙂

  95. Mealer says:

    I think we should all email Labour HQ with messages of support for Ms Lamont.

  96. tartanarse says:

    Shove on has forgotten to mention pooling and resourcing etc.

    Is she in trouble?

    There must be a template for this response.

  97. Edmund says:

    I’ve gone back and read the summary of the Labour report.

    As far as I can tell this is their policy:

    The Scotland Act 2012 already gives Scotland the ability to undercut the rest of the UK. For Scottish taxpayers, the UK tax rates will be 10p lower than in the UK for all bands. Scotland could choose to keep the tax paid by Scottish citizens unmodified by imposing a 10p tax of its own. Or, it could choose to have a lower tax rate by imposing a new tax of less than 10p, or a higher one by having a new tax of _more_ than 10p.

    With the powers of the Scotland Act alone, Scotland can already undercut rest of the UK (up to 10p lower). But all of the tax bands must be raised or lowered at the same time. If the Scottish Government lowers the 20% rate to 15%, they must also lower the 40% rate to 35%. If they increase the 20% rate to 30%, they must also increase the 40% rate to 50%.

    This appears to be what Mr. Baker is referring to, rather than anything in the Labour report.

    The Labour report proposes an additional power they call ‘Scottish Progressive Rates’, which means Scotland could increase the higher (40%) and additional (45%) rates independently of the powers provided by the Scotland Act.

    I guess it is this new power that Ms. Lamont was talking about in the Brewer interview.

    So consider the following scenario under their proposals:

    The Scotland Act comes into force, and the Scottish tax rates are cut from 20%, 40%, 45% by 10p to 10%, 30%, 35%.

    The Scottish Government’s budget is presumably cut proportionally. Scotland could get this revenue back and choose to impose a 10p tax, bringing the rates back to 20%/40%/45%.

    But those nasty Tories in London aren’t taxing people enough for Labour’s liking, so Scotland additionally applies a ‘Scottish Progressive Rate’ to the higher and additional bands. Let’s say 10p on each, so Scottish taxpayers now pay 20%/50%/55%.

    However I am still unclear about the following scenario:

    Scotland Act base tax rates start off at 10%/30%/35% (as above).

    But Scotland decides it is better off with lower taxes, so the Scottish tax rate is set at only 5p. Scottish taxpayers pay 15%/35%/40%.

    In this situation, would the Scottish Government be forced – as the Brewer interview suggested – to implement additional taxes (using Labour’s new ‘Scottish Progressive Rates’ mechanism) to push the higher bands back up to match the UK? Making the tax rates 15%/40%/45%? If that is the case the Labour proposals actually reduce the freedom of the Scottish Government to set tax rates.

    If not – and Mr. Baker seems to think not – you’re back at having tax competition in the higher rates, which Johann specifically ruled out.

    In any case the justification about ‘tax competition’ – they specifically ruled out corporation tax and air passenger duty due to this concern, remember – looks like very wooly thinking, given that the devolution commision knew from the start that the Scotland Act already allows Scotland to compete on tax with the rest of the UK. Maybe Labour can’t imagine that Scotland would ever lower taxes?

    Unless of course the purpose of the Labour ‘powers’ is actually to undermine the flexiblity provided by the Scotland Act by forcing Scotland to always have higher taxes than the UK in all circumstances.

    They also still haven’t told us how they will deliver any of this, given that they now look unlikely to win the 2015 election.

    Sorry for the massive comment – I find myself unable to explain it in simpler terms!

  98. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Rev.

    Don’t you mean implosion ?

  99. Giving Goose says:

    Labour politicians may not struggle with their conscience but I’m sure Labour supporters struggle to make sense of it all;
    http://whitefeatherclub.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall-whos-the-biggest-liar-of-them-all/

  100. Murray McCallum says:

    Weren’t Labour’s proposals meant to bring clarity to the referendum and a ‘No’ vote in particular?

    No wonder they can’t win anything.

  101. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Don’t you mean implosion?”

    I thought about it, and no. “Devo Nano” looked like no kind of power at all. Now it’s gotten a whole lot bigger. That’s an EXplosion…

  102. MacBee says:

    Checking the comments and seeing that replies are out there I hurriedly rushed to my email account. Perhaps a message from Anus Sarwar? Labour tax enlightenment in electronic form? Sadly, nope…sniff “you’ve lost that loving feeling, oh that loving feeling…”

  103. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Perhaps Johann’s already been given the boot but whoever was meant to tell her just forgot.

    Oh JoLa…you should never have gone dann sarf for the planting of Mr Benn and left JaBa. It was always going to end in tears.

  104. davidhk says:

    I’ve just replied to Siobhan McMahon and cc’ed jola to ask for clarification on who is telling the truth and if they actual.y understand what they are talking about, I’ll await the reply ……..

  105. Croompenstein says:

    SLab please don’t punt JoLa she is the gift that keeps on giving she is as important to Yes as the FM(ok slight exaggeration)but we must save JoLa

  106. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Doesn’t she look tired…?

  107. Ian Brotherhood says:

    When putsch comes to shove, who in SLab could possibly have devised such dastardly doings when JoLa’s away? Have these people no sense of loyalty?

    ‘Et tu, Jaba?’

  108. HandandShrimp says:

    Baker’s answer is a lot more coherent that Johann’s rather obscure performance. Could it be that Johann doesn’t understand what the proposals are?

    On the other hand although Baker’s answer would make a lot more sense I’m not sure that the Red Paper is meant to make sense.

  109. misteralz says:

    Conan the Librarian – I loved the ending of the Doctor Who episode. Especially the Belgrano reference.

  110. misteralz says:

    *that. Stupid ‘phone.

  111. Twenty14 says:

    If they’d only kept up to speed with the ongoings on Wings they’d know what each other was talking about.

    Imagine the next Slab meeting on Monday ” right who’s been monitoring Wings this weekend and what have we said ? ”

    New song for our chart list ” Lying without Wings “

  112. Murray McCallum says:

    Maybe Labour’s Devo proposals are a bit like horoscopes?

    A collection of words about the future that mean different things to different people and don’t necessarily reflect reality.

  113. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Aye, see ya!

    Bye!

    Missing ye already!

    Choory-oh!

    Bye.

    Okay.

    Gonny just go if ye’re gaun hen?

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/johanncastle.jpg

  114. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Aw bless, she looks that proud of them all too…

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/400xY/2011/12/16222193.JPG

  115. Inbhir Anainn says:

    Could we be witnessing the start of Scottish Labour’s Nacht der langen Messer.

  116. Croompenstein says:

    @Ian Brotherhood – Is that Flipper or Douglas Fraser at the other end of the table?

  117. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Surely the huge issue here is that if there can be tax competition (via Income Tax) between Scotland and the UK, that would constitute a race to the bottom, using Labours excuse not to devolve Corporation Tax.

    The other huge issue (in my opinion) is that Labour have been found out trying to sell a shambles that no Scottish Government would use. Instead of admitting such, they may be changing it. Just a misunderstanding I can hear them say. Or they’re (Baker etc) are lying. Either way taxi for JoLa?

  118. tartanarse says:

    Ian, come on, at least give us a wee bit of warning. I could have been eating my tea there.

  119. heedtracker says:

    Snot fair time up here in chilly Aberdeen. I emailed Councillor Young twice now and no reply at all. The second was just the tax up and/or down UK/Scotland conundrum but nothing. Willie’s a Labour devo commissioner so he should have everything at his finger tips. Neither this bloke Baker nor Siobhan McMahon are on it but they’ve at least answered. Tis even weirder considering all that Lamont stuff about “conversations with the Scottish people” waffle.

  120. Betsy says:

    If I might borrow from Ms Lamont for a moment I am astonished.

    Surely not even the MSM can ignore a party leader either being blatantly undermined by her MSP/MPs or having got the launch of her devo policy so badly wrong. You would think that in the middle of an independence referendum the ONE policy you would ensure was clearly and professionally presented by the whole party would be your anti-indy counter proposal. Does anyone in Scottish Labour actually speak to each other? In any other walk of life a cock up of this magnitude would result in a P45. It beggars belief.

  121. boglestone says:

    Nothing from Margaret Curran. I’m feeling left out. 🙁

  122. schrodingers cat says:

    “Uncharitably, one of them is lying. Or charitably, Labour themselves don’t have a clue what their actual policy is, after spending two years coming up with it”

    sorry Rev, you are being far to charitable

    richard baker is a fukcin worm of the highest order. I know, i met him at abdn uni

    they know exactly what they are saying. it is just the compliant MSM who let them away with murder, dont let him away with it, re run yer last post and get everyone to email these charlatans again

  123. schrodingers cat says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    28 March, 2014 at 7:38 pm“Don’t you mean implosion?”

    I thought about it, and no. “Devo Nano” looked like no kind of power at all. Now it’s gotten a whole lot bigger. That’s an EXplosion…

    naw, its devo hee haw, the dunkeys chice,

  124. AnneDon says:

    I got the impression Johann Lamont hadn’t actually read the report,so those written answers are probably more reliable.

  125. Murray McCallum says:

    The No campaign seems to be crumbling. A bit of infighting and leakage …

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound

  126. Fiona says:

    @ Edmund:

    Thanks for that: I had almost completed a very similar post coming to much the same conclusion as you (and also at great length :))

    There is one remaining confusion and I do not think it possible to resolve it yet

    In the letter received they say

    Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax. (my bolding)

    In the devolution document they say

    . In addition to extending this power, we will also introduce new Scottish Progressive Rates of Income
    Tax, so that the Scottish Parliament can increase the rates of tax in the higher and additional bands. For the first time, the Scottish Parliament will be able to alter both the level of tax and the progressivity of the tax
    system

    The latter does not actually say that a Scottish government could do both at the same time but it implies it: “alternatively” seems to rule it out.

    The Scotland Act specifically states the the SG can only set one Scottish Rate, and so I have to presume that the new “Scottish progressive rate”, which allows an increase in the top rates, counts as a Scottish Rate for this purpose. In which case it is either/or.

    I see no reason why anyone would accept this arrangement because it essentially enshrines labour party policy in UK law, for Scotland alone: and I don’t see why the tories and lib dems would go along with that if the union is retained. Nor do I see how tax competition is avoided through this measure. They do not seem to me to be trying to do what they say they are trying to do.

  127. Croompenstein says:

    @Murray McCallum – Wow “Of course there would be a currency union,” the minister told the Guardian in remarks that will serve as a major boost to the Scottish first minister, Alex Salmond, who accused the UK’s three main political parties of “bluff, bluster and bullying” after they all rejected a currency union

    I wonder who ‘the minister’ is..surely not Beaker!

  128. Alba4Eva says:

    Here is some food for thought for newbies, and old timers alike:

  129. Steph says:

    Labour have probably given all their MPs and MSPs a standard response to send to us nasty cybernats. Shame they forgot to coordinate it with Johann Lamont’s interview. Which incidentally made everyone I showed it to laugh hysterically in disbelief.

  130. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Croompenstein –

    Here’s the original Herald article, with a name-check. It’s that Hugh Henry dude – the man with no surname.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/fightback-begins-as-scots-labour-leader-names-team.1324351377

  131. Murray McCallum says:

    Croompenstein

    “A currency union will eventually be agreed between an independent Scotland and the remainder of the UK to ensure fiscal and economic stability on both sides of the border …”

    Of course, the “stability” part means the rUK as even the BBC, and Robert Peston in particular, must be starting to worry about their “broad shoulders”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26784701

  132. HandandShrimp says:

    The Guardian story about the Government minster that has said of course some sort of deal on a currency union would take place is remarkable for frankness. There is all sorts of weird stuff going on at the moment.

    We live in interesting times.

  133. G H Graham says:

    I thought we were done with pointless YouTube videos of boy bands?

    They add nothing to our insight, understanding or knowledge.

  134. KenC says:

    The Labour party in Scotland can’t even lie consistently. It’s not as though they haven’t had time to co-ordinate this. Confused? Us and them. I am increasingly glad we have, at long last, a government for Scotland worthy of it’s name.

  135. Betsy says:

    O/T (ish)
    Is anyone in the No camp speaking to each other? Apparently we’re now getting a currency union or not depending on who you speak to. One wonders if the recent crisis talks was just various no types sitting a room making random animal noises. They appear even less co-ordinated than they did before

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound?CMP=twt_gu

  136. Tony Little says:

    If I get this right, it seems to me that the noose is finally being tightened around JoLa by North Labour Central Committee. Since being elected as leader “of all the Scots’ [Labour variety] she has had a (car)crash course in “debating” and “interview technique” whilst being force-fed contradictory and easily rebuffed “information” and “key messages”. Her FMQ performances being orchestrated noises-off by the puppeteers.

    I am now of the view that all of this has been to set her up as the patsy for the real leader in waiting. Whatever the result in September, no one wanted to be responsible for the main campaign in Scotland and so someone had to carry the can. Her “performances” have been so poor that she can only have been led a merry dance by her own side. How very Labour.

    Now that YES seems more than likely, the background boys are making their move and have set JoLa up for the fall. Six months to go is enough time for the new leader to be excused “losing”. The new Leader (elected after the May Euro Elections) will have plausible deniability “Well I did my best given the poor hand I got” or be the saviour “I managed to bring round the debacle of the previous leader and held on to the UK!”

    Who has been most quiet in the last few months, or when they have been intervened it’s been at a less strident level? Who would be a refreshing change of generation? I agree with Liz, Jenny Mara comes immediately to my mind. (Perhaps her “minders” think as a new girl she is also more malleable?)

    I am now beginning to feel a little bit sorry for JoLa. Probably a genuine “old-style” Labour person (but I also mean the old style of control and management) who has been unable to deal with the “fast pace” of politics today. Hence her weekly absences between FMQs when she was no doubt being primed for another fall by her ("Tractor" - Ed)ous “Comrades”.

    Good old Scottish Labour. They’ll do anything, and anybody to hang onto their wee fiefs.

    Of course I could have this all wrong.

  137. twenty14 says:

    @G H Graham

    Come on GH – its a Friday night, things are looking up and its no a library 🙂

  138. Croompenstein says:

    @Ian – I wonder if Kezia has been trolled by a wicked cabernat she has that same glaikit expression she had in that photo in the Heil.

    @Tony Little – The ("Tractor" - Ed) is in that photo Ian posted, it’s like a murder mystery I think it wiz JaBa with the candlestick in the bog

  139. MajorBloodnok says:

    Murray McCallum says: Maybe Labour’s Devo proposals are a bit like horoscopes? A collection of words about the future that mean different things to different people and don’t necessarily reflect reality.

    I know exactly what you are saying. I read my horoscope a few years ago (in Shavers’ Weekly) and all it said was “Unlucky article of clothing: underpants. Unlucky colour: brown.” I mean that’s ridiculous, what’s unlucky about brown underpants?

  140. Alba4Eva says:

    GH Graham… i hope you were not referring to my last post. Art and music absolutely and completely reflects the reality we live in… it always has done (from the time of cave paintings)… and always will do (modern music).

    The most recent artistic input has been highly praised for its use of the Scots language…

  141. heedtracker says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound Not even going to read this. Woohoo! Labour’s 2 year quest for no devo ends with sterling zone go ahead. What a great week for Scotland:D

  142. Grouse Beater says:

    As I suggested some days ago, Lamont has to be on her last chance. Indeed, these radical diversions from her script may well be evidence she’s already being marginalised.

  143. Les Wilson says:

    Guardian article, ” rUK would want to keep trident at Faslane, Scotland wants to keep the pound, you can see a deal could be done ”

    They think they hold all the cards, news is they do not!

  144. Kirsty says:

    G H Graham

    Perhaps not always but they do add to our sense of fun and community. I’m saying this as a relatively new reader here; I enjoy the fact that people on here have a laugh with each other – it makes me feel comfortable and I think it’s why Wings does so well in comparison to other independence sites. In fact, if anything, I find the comments (some of them extremely rude) complaining about people’s language, links, intelligence, spelling and grammar a bit upsetting and off-putting. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but, as a newbie, it’s one of the things that attracts me to this site.

    Croompenstein

    You’re right; I wonder who was behind this email. I tried looking up to see who was in charge of communications but I couldn’t find anyone. Surely, it must have had the blessing of someone high up? Either that or it’s the mother of all typos!

  145. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @MajorB –

    ‘Shavers’ Weekly?’

    Good grief. I didn’t realise magazines of that sort did horoscopes…you learn something new every day!

  146. heedtracker says:

    @ Alba4Eva, yes but every time I see it I am extremely attracted to Margaret Thatcher AND Flipper Darling, probably more Darling.

  147. schrodingers cat says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/nick-clegg-councils-emergency-funds-bedroom-tax-arrears

    dear rev stu…….any chance of a caption competion for this photo?

  148. Alba4Eva says:

    Heedtracker… stop calling me Darling.

  149. Dcanmore says:

    Well done Stu, this is a big WOW of a story. Do we have warring factions within Scottish Labour? Does this prove it? I think so as it seems there is two distinct lines of thinking within Labour in Scotland, one with Johann Lamont and one without. Personally I think Lamont will be increasingly finding herself out in the cold of Scottish politics, regardless of the referendum result she is not going to be Labour leader in Scotland in 2015.

    Hopefully this story will get circulated.

  150. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Welcome to the REAL world government minister at the heart of the pro-union campaign.

    Now if you’d be so kind as to run along now and tell Messers Osborne, Alexander and Balls to pick their toys up and put them back into their prams then perhaps we can move forward in the referendum debate, thank you ever so much. 😛

  151. heedtracker says:

    @ Alba4Eva, No! Darling.

  152. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Croompenstein –

    Kezia Dugdale? I actually find her attractive. It’s not just her looks – to me, any woman devoted enough to take their baby into work (especially in the goldfish bowl which is Holyrood, having to face those vicious Nats every day) has to have a lot going for them.

    Three cheers for Kezia!

    http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cXOT6Xi3JHo/0.jpg

  153. Kirsty says:

    Tony Little; DCanmore

    I totally agree; I think she’s being set up as the patsy. Didn’t a Labour MP recently say that Labour in Scotland was split from top to bottom? This would appear to be the proof but I doubt the media will run it.

  154. Alba4Eva says:

    I did notice Dcanmore… It looks to me like J-lo’s big red jaikit is on ra proverbial shoogly peg.

    Who was it that famously said “Bring it on”? …what’s Jackie Bailies piece de resistance gonna be?

    We wait with baited breath. 🙂

  155. Les Wilson says:

    Ref Jola, ever since the SNP took power Slab as been deteriorating bit by bit. Consumed by hatred for their defeats, they have only warped tunnel vision.

    Heads of the party in Scotland have been rolling ever since, no matter who they choose, they are eventually deemed incapable.

    This causes mistakes, following Tory policies was their worst one, but one of many. They are falling into meltdown, with only themselves to blame.
    I hope after a YES vote, a really NEW, real, Scottish Labour emerges, and one without the old dead weights who would only pull them back.

    I do not love Labour anymore, like very many others, but they are needed in a democratic Scotland to give democratic balance.
    While acknowledging that, I will still vote SNP, without them, we would have had no chance.

  156. JLT says:

    To be quite honest. After reading what now looks like some sort of ‘let’s get something out there because the ‘no’ campaign is collapsing on all fronts’, we now have Labour saying the first thing that might appease the masses and try to get the Reverend off their backs.

    Then we have the Libs. First we have Clegg with ‘Oh! Nasty Nats. Don’t trust them. They’re the same as that nasty UKIP.’ Basically, Clegg is still upset that he had his backside handed to him in front of the nation. If he can’t beat a guy who didn’t last 5 minutes in a discussion with Edinburgh locals over some UKIP policies, then he’s no chance with the Scottish electorate …especially as he’s holding hands with David and George, who are just about as toxic to Scotland as Maggie was.

    Then we have Wee Willie discussing the bedroom tax with, ‘I think it should just go, and it should go quickly. The only problem with that statement is the ‘think’ word …basically, he’s not really sure, or in other words, I want to see it go, but I don’t want to upset my London masters …especially the one on the podium right now saying that the SNP are just as bad as UKIP.

    Overall …Labour, Liberals …they don’t have a clue. They are all pretending though that these wee soundbites imply that great change is coming, but of course, they don’t really have a clue …nor will any of these noises of optimism (if it is even that) will ever see the light of day!

  157. heedtracker says:

    @Alba4Eva, oh god. they say you should think about something non hot to stop you you know but that makes me to pull my own eyes out.

  158. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @schrodingers cat –

    Why does Wee Wullie look so happy?

    Here’s the man himself, predicting that he’d get Nick Clegg ‘up again’, and – would you adam-an’-eve it? He did!

    Three cheers for Willie Rennie!

  159. Arbroath 1320 says:

    especially as he’s holding hands with David and George, who are just about as toxic to Scotland as Maggie was.

    Don’t forget Ed and Ed JLT, they are also in the same bed as Dave and George. The Rainbow party all for one and, erm, one for oneself! 😛

  160. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I wonder if it will all happen this week-end.

    Labour do that, you know.It gives them time to distance themselves a bit and sort out what the fuck is happening.

    Remember, this is not just a Slab clusterfuck, there are No dimensions, all the ramifications for Miliband and when the LibDems are going to be put to sleep.

    Anyone checked the alignment of the stars?

  161. Les Wilson says:

    Alba4Eva says:

    Well you should have attached a health warning!!
    It had the same effect on me as Linda Blair from the Exorcist
    jumping out the screen. Nearly fell off my chair LOL!

  162. joe kane says:

    This could be the night of the long knives for JoLa…
    – Ian Brotherhood, given this is Scottish Labour it’ll be more like night of the rubber knives.

    Scottish Labour are a such a bunch of complete and utter incompetents I doubt they could even organise a coup against someone as easy to bump off as Johann, who needs to get put out of her political misery asap for everyone concerned.

    This Devo Nano tax policy is about the only policy I can come up with which the Labour Party, in general, haven’t stolen off someone else, hence the reason they’re all over the place with it.

    Even its Housing Benefit policy is just a straightforward steal from the nationwide grassroots anti-bedroom tax campaign which makes Labour’s support for the utterly ludicrous IDS pipe-dream of Universal Credit even more ludicrous.

  163. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I can feel it in my waters.

    Bring it on.

  164. Alba4Eva says:

    Sorry heedtracker. LOL. 🙂

  165. Alba4Eva says:

    And Les. 😉

  166. Fiona says:

    @Kirsty

    Whether she is being set up or not she doesn’t have to make it so easy: she could do something radical like reading the report before she goes on the telly.

    It is of her own making because she is either lazy or stupid or both

  167. JLT says:

    Arbroath mate,

    There’s a whole bucket load of these ‘rogues’ we could name!

    But, I’m only going with whoever has spoken today.

    All very interesting! It would be sad to see Jola go, but if we are talking replacements, then I’m dying for Margreet to have a shot at the hot seat. Just her screeching at the nation will send the ‘Yes’ vote up!

  168. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Point taken JLT. 🙂

    If you’re looking for a JoLa replacement might we be on the verge of seeing the come back kid return to *ahem* front line Labour politics?

    I am referring of course to the one the only Beny Wendy ‘bring it on’ Alexander. Now there is a ‘leader’ to be feared!:P

  169. Findlay Farquaharson says:

    i think scottish labour are just so useless, dont think its a plot to get rid of poison ivy, most of them are not up to the job.

  170. cearc says:

    Alba4Eva,

    It’s OK, Ian will appreciate it.

    Fetching? Attractive?

    C’mon Ian, we need a verdict!

  171. Kirsty says:

    Fiona

    Agreed!

  172. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Joe Kane –

    Aye, agreed.

    But they could use this stushie as the excuse they need to jettison Johann. Even if it hadn’t occured to them before reading this thread, they now have the perfect opportunity to lob the hapless Jola overboard.

    Thereafter?

    As you and others have suggested, there needn’t necessarily be any ‘after’ in place because they clearly haven’t a clue what they’re doing – they’re making it up as they go along, or, to use a more appropriate expression, ‘winging it’.

    In any event, they’re fucked – and they know we know that they know etc etc.

    Tomorrow morning’s Radio Scotland coverage should be interesting. It should be, but…

  173. Grouse Beater says:

    Front Page News Flash

    Big stooshie everywhere after “government minister” announces …

    …. “There will be a currency union.”

    “Alastair and Andrew are running the show. We just did what we were told to do,” said one Treasury spokesperson.

    Do I get the feeling unionist fabrications and unity are unravelling?

    You bet I do!

  174. joe kane says:

    Even if it hadn’t occured to them before reading this thread,…
    – I love it Ian B.
    Scottish Labour reduced to stealing their ideas off WOS and its merry band of commenteers!

  175. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I can just see that very nice Mr Fraser now on (dis)Reporting Scotland. Just before he has a seizure whilst reading his script about this news of currency union he’ll be heard to blurt out “those nasty Nats have been found out bribing a Whitehall spokesperson to speak unholy untruths!” 😛

  176. Alba4Eva says:

    Cearc… im starting to get worried turning up to the Counting House now. The Glenfiddich’s been giving me too much confidence on here tonight obviously… i may well pay later. 🙂

  177. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @cearc –

    Apologies, friend, but I cannot adjudicate on the matter in question as I did not have time to ‘appreciate’ the image fully.

    I have saved it to a (floppy) disc and will return to it at a later date, as and when I have completed my new article for ‘Shavers’ Weekly’.

  178. JLT says:

    Ha ha ha ha ha …it keeps getting better today!

    Now there is a whisper of currency union. (can hear the klaxon Red Alert! Red Alert! Better Together collapsing on all fronts! …Red Alert! Red Alert!

    First JoLa has someone breaking ranks in Labour. Now we have someone breaking ranks in the coalition.

    Priceless!

    I have to stop coming back here every 5 minutes! I’m supposed to be studying at this very moment! I’ll never pass this History Degree!

  179. Grouse Beater says:

    @ JLT

    You’re helping make history!

  180. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    “I thought about it, and no. “Devo Nano” looked like no kind of power at all. Now it’s gotten a whole lot bigger. That’s an EXplosion…”

    I see maybe confusion is more appropriate to what may follow on now.

  181. JLT says:

    ‘On Friday Nick Clegg accused Alex Salmond of trying to make voters think “the world is flat and down is up” by claiming the UK would agree to a currency union with an independent Scotland.’

    Bloody hell! I better not walk up the Pentlands tomorrow. I might fall off the edge, and hit the sky!

  182. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I have to stop coming back here every 5 minutes! I’m supposed to be studying at this very moment! I’ll never pass this History Degree!

    Surely this can count can’t it, after this is history in the making. This is the Labour party in Scotland going through its final death throes. Just think in years to come you’ll be able to accurately discuss Scotland’s historical political high/low points with future generations of History intellectuals with first hand experience. 😛

  183. RogueCoder says:

    HOLD UP A SEC

    Independent Scotland ‘may keep pound’

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound

    Unnamed source?? Tactical leak more like. Christ, they must be getting really desperate.

  184. RogueCoder says:

    Oh…. silly me, old news.

    Okay, so I just got home and hadn’t read 150 comments!

    Apologies – I’m getting the humble pie out of the fridge….

  185. RogueCoder says:

    “The minister, who would play a central role in the negotiations over the break-up of the UK if there were a yes vote”

    That’s a deliberate leak. They’ll deny the hell out of it of course.

  186. gillie says:

    NO campaign is imploding. We are to get a currency union.

  187. goldenayr says:

    Have you noticed how Labour drop bombshells on a Friday night?…just sayin.

  188. Macart says:

    @msean

    Yep just been reading the Guardian and Beeb pieces. Looks to me like a bit more negotiation by press. No such animal as an unsanctioned, unnamed disclosure at ministerial level. This is no slip of the tongue or casual chat with the press.

    Plan A fell flat on its arse, the FM didn’t budge position by an inch on currency. Time for plan B and a shift in negotiations. 🙂

  189. RogueCoder says:

    Surely not? That’s their core argument. If they step away from that now, it’s as good as handing Alec the keys to Westminster’s front door.

    No, it can’t be right. It doesn’t play to a devo max win for them, it just strengthens the case for independence. Something up here… more reading and thinking required.

  190. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I’m thinking that the Rainbow party are slowly beginning to realise that within 2 years they are going to have to find somewhere else to park up their nukes. The realisation is not making them too happy either, as they keep telling us they have no where to put them.

    If they have to remove their “toys” from Faslane and they have no where else to put them I guess that will mean rUK becomes another NON Nuclear country. Dave, Nick and Ed don’t like this idea one little bit, but hey ho…TOUGH. The other reason they don’t like it is because without their nuke “toys” rUK will no longer have a seat at the top table. Boo Hoo! 🙂

    The minister, who would play a central role in the negotiations over the break-up of the UK if there were a yes vote, added: “There would be a highly complex set of negotiations after a yes vote with many moving pieces. The UK wants to keep Trident nuclear weapons at Faslane and the Scottish government wants a currency union – you can see the outlines of a deal.”

    The trouble with this argument is that no matter how you look at it the Scottish government has Westminster over a barrel. They think that agreeing to a currency union gives Westminster the upper hand when in reality they have just admitted that they have a weak hand.

    Now that this genie has been released, never again to be put back into the bottle, whatever teeth Better Together thought they had have finally been pulled and they are now nothing more than a toothless wonder. 😛

  191. heedtracker says:

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/coalition-minister-currency-union-will-exist-between-iscotland-and-rest-of-uk.1396043061 It’s almost certainly a UK.gov “leak.” This is the beginning of the end for bettertogether and they know it too. 28/03/2014, the day it all fell apart and haven’t they left Clegg and co looking even more silly. Farage must be laughing like a drain.

  192. BuckieBraes says:

    Please, ‘Better Together’, one blunder at a time! You are really spoiling us!

  193. JLT says:

    Grouse Beater / Arbroath 1320

    The bizarre things is. Last week, I was learning gothic architecture, and guess the building?

    Westminster of all places!

    This week …Ireland, the Invention of Tradition …and it’s about Ireland between the Easter Uprising in 1916 to 1923.
    And seriously, there was one quote that blew me away. Here it is …

    When did our English-speaking history begin? For most of us, not much more than a century ago; for very many of us, not much more than a half-century ago; and for a not inconsiderable number – well over half a million – it has not begun at all. Our Gaelic-speaking history, on the other hand, goes back through a long series of centuries, back to the very dawn of authentic history, and probably far beyond it. … Shall we cut ourselves adrift from our Gaelic past, with all its wealth of tradition, of proud memories, of glorious literature – blot out centuries of our history, and appear before the world as a people whose history began a century or two ago?

    Source: Rev. M.P. O’Hickey (1898) The True National Idea, London, Gaelic League

    I couldn’t believe it when I read that. Taking Scotland as now …and Ireland a 100 years ago …and it is frighteningly similar! Especially that last sentence. This reminds me of being taught ‘O’ grade History in 1983 when we were taught Scottish history from 1760 onwards. Nothing before 1760 except one thing …we were taught the Scottish farming method of Runrig system. I believe it was a case of ‘look how poor Scottish history is! That is all you have; farming! Now see what happened 50 years after the Union and look how much better Scotland became within that Union.’

  194. chicmac says:

    Schrodinger’s cat

    Caption comp, song convert, Wullie to Clegg

    Well I’ll need to keep ma Granny on ma bus
    If we’ve nae room she cannae stay wi us
    If you’re goin’ tae be a fanny
    And Ah’ve nae room fur ma granny
    Then Ah’ll need tae keep ma granny oan ma bus.

  195. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Plan A fell flat on its arse, the FM didn’t budge position by an inch on currency. Time for plan B and a shift in negotiations. 🙂

    With the ‘announcement’ via media that a currency union can take place after all perhaps it should be the YES camp and NOT the Better Together camp who should be asking “What is your plan B?” 😛

  196. twenty14 says:

    time for a toon on this New Currency Evening – https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pNCFR8SqioE

  197. RogueCoder says:

    I’m reading this as Darling getting the boot. The “minister” just painted this as “his” strategy. Could it be Darling’s head is being served up as a peace offering?

  198. Jim T says:

    And just to add to the mix of errmm mixed messages the Guardian carries this story tonight :

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound

    Whitever next?

  199. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I’m always amazed JLT how history has a habit, is it bad I don’t know, of repeating itself. 😛

    Right from the getgo I have had a warm glow inside of me about winning the referendum, not that I’ve been over optimistic, just a strong belief in what will happen on 19th September.

    Now we appear to have Labour almost openly fighting in public over what taxes will be ‘offered’ and what won’t and now this bombshell, sorry no other word suits it, that a currency union is back on the table I’m really left asking the question “whatever is left for Better Together?” The simple answer from where I’m sitting is nothing. Better Together have just been spectacularly blown out of the water and is now sinking faster than you can say referendum! 🙂

  200. goldenayr says:

    Heedtracker
    “Farage must be laughing like a drain”

    Nah,the establishment are.The greatest hoodwink in history is about to be perpetrated on English voters unless we vote YES.They have been conned into believing that the market economy is the answer to all their woes.Too stupid?Buy something[Sky Sports].Too wee?Shout about something[Immigration].Too stupid?Complain[Then we can trivialise your problems and demean you]

    Thank F we’re not that gullible.

  201. G H Graham says:

    Labour’s inner sanctum isn’t stupid. They read the same polls & same opinions as we do.

    They’re no doubt preparing to remain in opposition at Westminster for another 5 years.

    Miliband is a lousy leader; the polls say so & Labour’s calamitous economic track record is still not easily forgotten.

    So when one plans on not having any power, one can make as many fantastic promises & claims as one likes because the chances of being in a position to deliver any of them are fag paper thin.

    North British Labour, Scottish Branch will always have Westminster as their first priority so they can screw around with all sorts of nonsensical, contradictory policy statements, just so long as the SNP lose the referendum.

    Thus, from Labour’s perspective, anyone in charge at Westminster is better than Scotland achieving independence.

    Expect more fantastic claims & contradictions designed to muddle the electorates thinking, in an attempt to lead them to take the safe bet & stick with the status quo.

    It’s a huge risk of course because the power & effect of social media may yet to be fully appreciated or even understood.

  202. Macart says:

    @Arb

    Hehehehe, they don’t know whether they’re punched, bored or countersunk.

    Like I said, no unsanctioned release by an unnamed minister. They’re floating another open air negotiation and seeing how it plays with the polls. Were I the FM I’d still hold pat and keep my hand close to my chest.

    We’ve published a white paper, they’ve done squat. The YES vote has grown, the no vote has lost ground. Their tack changes by the week, the YES stance remains firm.

    They look panicked and I’m beginning to smell fear.

    Or something… 🙂

  203. RogueCoder says:

    F___ me. Just IMAGINE the hay that Alec is going to make with this. Even if it’s BS, or some junior minister who just unwisely opened his mouth (unlikely), this is catastrophic for BT.

    Oh to be a fly on the wall in Bute House this evening!!!!

  204. west_lothian_questioner says:

    Trying to float a nukes/pound trade-off is a bit desperate on the part of Whitehall. Its been allgedly leaked and officially denied… but… it isn’t a pre-negotiated negotiating position you understand… “Of course there will be a currency union,” isn’t a negotiating position. It’s an acknowledgement that they know it’s the best possible deal they can hope for.

  205. heedtracker says:

    How many thousands of times has Flipper Darling said currency union “just wont happen” and now what he’s going to say? I, Flipper Darling resign, is best bet.

  206. tartanarse says:

    ot but check out this utter shyte. Link courtesy of Britnutter from DT.talltalescafe.wordpress.com/

  207. Proud Cybernat says:

    Currency Union will now happen, UK Government Minister announces.

    Well up here in the real world we always knew it would. But why this ‘leak’ all of a sudden? Well, I predicted this would happen about two months ago. Just like the Treasury announcement back then of UK ownership over UK debt was made to ‘calm the markets’, it seems to me that the money-men now need some further reassurance and this ‘announcement’ is giving them what they need. You can bet your last pound sterling that’s behind this ‘leak’.

  208. Kev says:

    Labour MSPs trying to overthrow JoLa? C’mon, these are folk who’d probably think a coup is somethin that stons in a field. The reality is they’re so brainless they can’t even understand policies they’ve been workin on for 2 years, they’l end up pleading idiocy and Jola will just whisper in their ear n say “A dinnae really underston it tae”, the media will ignore it and that’l be that…

  209. Croompenstein says:

    @JLT – Don’t mention Gaelic to the Rev 🙂

  210. Arbroath 1320 says:

    They look panicked and I’m beginning to smell fear.

    I agree Macart. The fight for the union has just, how can I say this politely, let one gawd almighty one go and emptied the room! 😛

  211. goldenayr says:

    tartanarse
    You’re as bad at links as I am.

  212. Betsy says:

    Interesting take on currency union and abysmal no campaign from Eric Joyce.

    http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2014/03/scotland-currency-union-obvious-no-campaign-stumbles-on/

  213. Croompenstein says:

    @Betsy – Eric Joyce says There’s time, like. The No campaign is burdened by a negative imperative, but it could point out the good things about remaining part of the UK FFS Mr Joyce if you’re gonna say that at least have the good grace to give us one f*cking good thing about remaining as part of this union

  214. Jim T says:

    @Proud Cybernat 10:32pm

    It seems an odd thing to spring after close of markets on a Friday if it’s meant to calm the markets. The trading floor boys and girls will have a whole weekend to stew it into something they can use to make more obscene truckloads of dosh on Monday. There will be a blip lasting a couple of hours and then they’ll drop back into “now, where were we?” mode.

    I’d be willing to bet that the “insider” will make a few bob too.

  215. goldenayr says:

    I’m beginning to get the impression that the Romano/German policy of divide and conquer has seeped into our cause.Or maybe it’s those that previously supported the gravy train are now looking beyond it’s final destination Wullie Rennie,Charles Kennedy,Eric Joyce…etc.
    Have they smelt the change in the air and are now realigning for a definite change?Or are they hedging their bets?

  216. tartanarse says:

    Goldenayr

    I’m not the most technical. To be honest I saw someone being told off by Rev in relation to links and thought that I had to remove the http: bit, but then I saw some others and thought I’d go for it.

    Wait till I work out how to get the videos on.

    (only joking Rev, we’ve quite enough of those already)

  217. Iain says:

    Even McColm’s getting in on the act:

    euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 10 mins
    hear the guardian source who breached the government line on no currency union is uncomfortably senior tory. #indyref

    euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 2 hrs
    this is simply terrible for the #bettertogether campaign: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound … #indyref

  218. Brian Powell says:

    On the currency union, reported in the Guardian, it should be noticed Faslane was mentioned. “They want a currency union, we want to keep Trident at Faslane”.

  219. Grouse Beater says:

    @ JLT

    Irish history. Now you talking!

    And your talking to a man whose grandfather came from County Mayo – founder of the Musician’s Union in Scotland, a pioneer in establishing orchestras here, and revilled in the unusual Irish name of Patrick Reilly. (My mother’s Scots, my father Sicilian.) I envy you your time to study the history of our peoples. Listen to Irish Radio during the day while I get on with projects. Presenters comment a lot in their daily shows about our struggles for democratic hegemony seeing it from a benign perspective compared to our colonial irritants.

    I learned Irish history from reading the works of Brendan Behan. Now there’s a broth of a boy!

  220. bunter says:

    Herald running with the CU story but the state broadcaster spinning with Carmichael rubbishing the statement.

    That will convince everyone lol

  221. Croompenstein says:

    There can be NO negotiation of keeping Trident on the Clyde it has to go that has to be non-negotiable..surely!

  222. Jim T says:

    @tartanarse 10:45

    I’ve figured that if the URL starts with www. then you need to remove the http bit. If it starts with something like news.bbc etc. WITHOUT the www bit then it seems that you need to leave the http in place.

    Sits back with fingers in ears waiting for the Rev’s thunder and lightning …

  223. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Croompenstein says:

    There can be NO negotiation of keeping Trident on the Clyde it has to go that has to be non-negotiable..surely!

    There is no ‘has’ about it Croompenstein it IS non-negotiable end of! 😛

  224. JLT says:

    Arbroath 1320,

    It’s been a weird day! I think I converted another person. At lunch, a few of us talked about the Shetland piece (or nonsense) on ITN News last night. This got us on to Scottish History. I told them about the Darien Scheme, and everyone of them literally went, ‘What? What scheme?’
    When I told them, their jaws hit the floor. One of them later asked for more info on the Darien Scheme, the Alien Act and the act of Union.

    And just like what O’Hickey mentioned about the Irish not knowing their history back in 1898. We are the same today. Britain does not want Scotland to know its true history.
    But if we become independent …well, that’s why I’m doing a degree in Scottish History. I want to eventually become a history teacher and teach our kids the real history one day.

    Croompenstein,
    Okay …you got me! What is it about Gaelic that worries / annoys / angers the Rev?

  225. TheGreatBaldo says:

    On the currency thing….

    The Tories put down their marker on Darling for narrowing polls when they described him as “Comatose” when the White Paper was launched.

    According to McColm, The Guardian source is a Senior Cabinet Tory…..

    And interesting to note the line that hasn’t been denied is……

    The “Currency Union Scare” was a strategy devised by Alistair Darling not George Osbourne/Ed Balls.

    A fatal blow to BT and the No Campaign….

    Now YES can say ‘Dinna worry it’s a bluff’ to pretty much everything they say going forward.

  226. FlimFlamMan says:

    So, a currency union in return for leaving the nukes in place. Okay, but what’s the good part of this deal?

    Currency union wrecks rUK economy thanks to lost ability to finance external deficit, Scotland dragged down in turn by collapse of largest trading partner, and the nukes are still there.

    Who benefits? Well, bond markets benefit from the yields they will be able to extract as rUK no longer has currency control. So maybe the money men are pushing this and Westminster are sufficiently incompetent/corrupt to go along with it.

    Assuming this is a ‘leak’ and not a genuine mistake and/or junior minister having an attack of the vapours.

  227. Proud Cybernat says:

    Is it not the case that under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty it is forbidden for one country to keep its nuclear arsenal in another country? In that case, after Scottish indy, it would be illegal for the rUK to keep Trident in Scotland. Or am I talking a pile o’ mince?

  228. goldenayr says:

    tartanarse
    Re vids,links and everything else.I,m no luddite but I don’t have a clue how to do it.Maybe in this new tech age I could be classed as “unsullied”.

  229. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Congratulations JLT, every little bit helps! 😛

  230. Bruce Wallace says:

    Arbroath 1320 @9.28

    History in the making indeed.
    I’m collecting lots of info, cartoons, pictures of anything promoting Yes that I’ll pick through then print and frame to hang in my stairwell to mark this historic event, I’m also keeping a record of the daily Facebook Yes v BT likes that Flipper takes serious.

    I’m looking for links to key dates of the main issues affecting the referendum since Jan 1st, or I will email my xml if anybody can update these key dates in the comments in the date column.

  231. Muscleguy says:

    Even the late Scotland Tonight had the story the same as the Guardian and the Herald. I don’t normally watch but did so tonight at 22:25 to see if they would cover it. So after that bit of balance expect them to clean their minds out with biased scaremongering over the weekend. How do you expect them to exist with all that good news for Yes washing around their heids?

  232. tartanarse says:

    JimT at 10.50

    I’m going to wait to see what happens with this one then stick to what i know.

    I’m usually braver.

  233. Ian Sanderson says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound

    1 “The minister, who would play a central role in the negotiations over the break-up of the UK if there were a yes vote, added: “There would be a highly complex set of negotiations after a yes vote with many moving pieces. The UK wants to keep Trident nuclear weapons at Faslane and the Scottish government wants a currency union – you can see the outlines of a deal.”

    No way Jose….

    2 “The decision to toughen up the message was made because Darling believes Better Together needs to do more than win the referendum – it needs to kill off independence with an emphatic win. “Alistair (Darling) and Andrew (Dunlop) are running the show, we just did what they said,” one Treasury source said.”

    ‘Wisnae me guv… a big boy did it…’

    The knives are being sharpened….!

  234. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Well wasn’t that interesting…NOT!

    I’ve just sat through the Sky news preview and in amongst all the papers they did indeed show the Guardian and make mention of ‘that’ headline. Wow thought I here we go another round of Sky newspaper reviewers bashing Scotland. After all every other time there has been a headline about anything to do with Scottish independence they just love to bash us right?

    What can I say…NOTHING. Absolutely nothing was discussed about the Guardian and its headline. Hmm, maybe someone from number 10 has had a wee word in their shell like NOT to discuss this story. Yes that must be it they were instructed not to discuss the currency union story under threat of imminent firing squad. That’s it. Phew, just for a minute there I thought there might have been a conspiracy in action here. 🙂

  235. Grouse Beater says:

    If the government minister “at the centre of the No campaign” is suggesting a currency union might carry – there is no “will” – the quid pro quo of keeping Trident there is only one power on this planet than would insist the UK government alter tack and face the oncoming vessel flying the Saltire … the USA.

  236. cynicalHighlander says:

    Bookies are getting nervous as more money goes on Yes. Tried to get an archive on a 5/2 odds but it had before I could.

    http://archive.is/www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome

  237. goldenayr says:

    Totally OT
    Something has been niggling me about Crimea and the Russian stance.It suddenly hit home what it was..Syria.
    The Russians have conceded Syria to the West and are using Crimea/Ukraine as payoff.
    DU-UH,sometimes it amazes me how slow I can be.

  238. Grouse Beater says:

    I think it be time ta parley” Captain Sparrow.

  239. Findlay Farquaharson says:

    carmichael is not fit to represent the people of scotland, he is once again trying to disadvantage scotland by not backing a currency union.

  240. Linda's back says:

    Re Trident in exchange for currency union. The Tories are now trying to negotiate in advance of the YES vote.

    Trident is the numero uno bargaining chip in Scotland’s hands so it could be a currency union plus a few other “concessions” and Scotland can play hard ball.

    It is obvious that Trident cannot be moved on day one of Indy so it could well be the base will be leased for say a maximum of five years (for a healthy rental) so that Ruk can build a new base.

  241. Dcanmore says:

    I can see Darling’s resignation inevitable now after this leaked announcement. He rests on his laurels as being an ex-chancellor, dines out on it. This will cause great anguish with not only Better Together but to Labour in Scotland themselves. JoLa being set up as the patsy and Darling with his head on the block. The Tories are ready to hand all blame onto Labour to deliver a fatal blow to Miliband’s prospects of getting middle England votes for GE2015. This going to be a slaughter.

  242. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Grouse Beater –

    You’re the third Winger to declare a County Mayo link. My maternal grandparents were Murphy, from a coastal clutch of cottages, closest town Belmullet. A fellow Winger’s people hailed from the same patch. (Sorry, forget your name now mister, but we did exchange some details at the time.)

    We meet again, one way or another, eventually…

  243. Jimbo says:

    @ RogueCoder

    Eric Joyce questions whether it may have been Danny Alexander to Nick Watt in Aberdeen?

    http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2014/03/scotland-currency-union-obvious-no-campaign-stumbles-on/#comment-2768

  244. Findlay Farquaharson says:

    bbc just had a scottish reporter saying polls hadnt moved in months ffs.

  245. goldenayr says:

    Guys..All big news stories are released on a Friday night.

    Why?..because no one on civvy street pays any attention until the Six o’clock News on Monday.By which time something else has happened.C’mon..there must be someone else out there with a Govt background?

  246. Grouse Beater says:

    Our antagonists cannot understand how such a simple slogan as “Scotland governed by those who live in Scotland” can cause such joy. It is an emotion alien to them.

  247. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Just caught the tail end of BBC report into Guardian article, with Carmichael doing what he does best following his master’s orders. The reporter also ‘claimed’ number 10 said this would not happen. Well folks we all know what happens when number 10 says anything…take what they say turn it on its head give it a good shake and out pops the truth. Oh look currency union IS on the table after all! 🙂

  248. Linda's back says:

    Arbroath 1320 @ 23.01

    BBC newspaper review at 10.30 led with Guardian story and had fair and balanced comments from the two reviewers.

  249. cynicalHighlander says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    Trident will go back to the USA as they own them as UK just pays for the privilege(sic) of willy waving and yes it will be illegal for Scotland to have them on its sovereign territory longer than deemed safe for their removal to the owners.

  250. gillie says:

    Senior Tory cabinet minister or Danny Alexander? Either way Better Together is f****d.

  251. bunter says:

    Is it not the case that an indy Scotland would not be allowed to have WMD on its soil as a new state. The non proliferation treaty thingy would not allow it surely and so these monstrosities would have to be removed asap.

  252. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Linda’s back says:

    Arbroath 1320 @ 23.01

    BBC newspaper review at 10.30 led with Guardian story and had fair and balanced comments from the two reviewers.

    Thanks Linda, I’ll give it a go at 11:30. I normally watch Sky because you get a full 30 minutes, you only get 15 minutes on BBC.

  253. Flower of Scotland says:

    Sorry folks , all over BBC , no currency union according to the Secretary for Portsmouth ( aka A Carmichael) must have been a leak from a minion! We get a minion to leak it , then deny it again , cause we have no real news and yous lot are trying to carve up the Labour Party! We can’t have that , so we are trying to divert your attention.

  254. Dcanmore says:

    @Linda’s back

    Just what I think too regarding the nukes. I would say 8 years though (healthy rent as you say), that’s the needed to build a suitable port to house them and the warheads. I believe the currency union will interim also till we either launch our own currency or we join the Euro. So we’re probably looking at 10 years from now for event to conclude (bearing in mind that independence doesn’t actually happen officially until March 2016).

  255. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Bruce Wallace –

    Sorry if this appears rude, but are you in Ayr? If so, I suspect we’ve met, albeit briefly, sharing a stall at the Wallace Tower last summer, gathering names on Anti-Bedroom Tax petitions? You were also at the Sillars/Fox SSP meeting in the Town Hall a few weeks back?

    Is that your good self?

    In any event, more power to ye.

  256. goldenayr says:

    cynical highlander

    We are one half of the signatories of ownership.And if you think I’m handing over WMD to anybody with no negotiation then screw you.

  257. a2 says:

    sorry didn’t read the posts in between when I last looked and posting , seems I’m last to the party. My moneys on Moore switching within the month, he never looked convinced.

    however it’ll be up to us to state categorically that Trident is not negotiable.

  258. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Not sure about length of time we’ll be in the currency union Dcanmore but I’m sure I heard Alex Salmond say at some speech somewhere, may even have been last S.N.P. conference, that rUK’s nukes would be gone from Scottish waters by 2020. 😛

  259. Flower of Scotland says:

    Sorry forgot A Carmichael is Secretary of State for Portsmouth! Wow had to get that one right!

  260. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    My grandfather hailed from Wellport.

    My wife, in whom I am mighty proud, spends every January and February creating studies for her artwork in Ballycastle. Her appearance each year is welcomed by the locals, including the proud owners of Porsche, Lambo, and John Deere tractors – a status symbol among farmers there.

    And there, by the famine fields filled with the ghosts of poverty’s past, in village pubs that sit high above the oceans black cliffs, you can talk freely of independence with anybody you choose and no one glances sideways nervously, or dips their face to a pint, or clams up lest they betray an opinion.

  261. goldenayr says:

    Grouse Beater

    You must live in hell here,or servitude.

  262. Jamie Arriere says:

    Poor auld Carbuncle. Having to break off rehearsing tomorrow morning’s speech in front of the mirror in his dressing-gown & Fozzy Bear baffies to stem another seeping wound.

    Too late Biffo, damage done, artery severed.

    Back to your masterpiece.

  263. cynicalHighlander says:

    @goldenayr says:

    cynical highlander

    We are one half of the signatories of ownership.And if you think I’m handing over WMD to anybody with no negotiation then screw you.

    We are signatories to nothing as the US own them lock stock and barrel as they aren’t daft enough to let a corrupt UK state to have control of anything beyond dressage to act important.

  264. goldenayr says:

    Jims behind
    I can’t wait for Marr on Sunday.

  265. Grouse Beater says:

    Goldenayr

    “You must live in hell here”

    The people have spoken. The bastards.

  266. Bruce Wallace says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    No not that’s not myself there’s a couple Bruce/Wallace name combinations on here, sorry comrade.

  267. Grouse Beater says:

    Carmichael denies Scotland will share the pound?

    He’s a man who approaches every subject with an open mouth.

  268. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Interesting that the paper reviewers on BBC seem to think that keeping the nukes at Faslane is what Alex Salmond will have to agree to in order to get his currency union totally oblivious to what has been mentioned above, the non proliferation treaty!

    Both reviewers don’t seem to appreciate that as Scotland will be an independent country rUK will not be permitted under the non proliferation treaty to keep their nuke ‘toys’ in Scotland. Net result we get a currency union and we get rid of the nukes. Someone somewhere in Whitehall has obviously gone off half cocked over this idea about keeping nukes on the Clyde.

  269. goldenayr says:

    I have a suggestion for all good Wingers.Go to the Newsnet Scotland site.Download their reply from the Secratariat-General Legal Affairs and send it to the…
    Sorry,you can only contact Andrew Marr through the complaints procedure.

  270. goldenayr says:

    Grouse Beater

    You live close to an establishment bod?Nuff said.

  271. Grouse Beater says:

    Arbroath 1320

    Considering the SNP rely heavily on the thousands of Trident protestors for votes I cannot see how Salmond and his team can even contemplate shaking hands on trading a chunk of rUK’s debt for yet more debt on Scotland to pay for keeping them here.

  272. Murray McCallum says:

    Nicola Surgeon 11.28pm on twitter regarding currency and nukes trade off speculation.

    “no need to worry on that score…as you’ll hear when I speak at CND rally next Sat!”

    Excellent.

  273. gillie says:

    We now know what the UK government is thinking behind closed doors – nothing off the table and everything up for discussion. Their bluff has been well and truly called on a currency union.

  274. Dcanmore says:

    It’s only the BBC saying a currency union will ‘not’ happen. What No.10 actually said is a currency union is ‘unlikely’ to happen. Big difference and shows up the BBC for what they are. Any politician worth his/her salt in Westminster always keeps deniability as an optional manoeuvre… “We didn’t say it would not happen, we said it was unlikely to happen.” You can just imagine this playing out.

  275. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Goldenayr

    You live close to an establishment bod? Nuff said.

    White man speak with forked tongue.

  276. Murray McCallum says:

    Her is Nicola’s tweet. Hope the link works

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/449689475325902848

  277. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Bruce Wallace –

    Cheers man, that helps me – me heid’s scrambled. I think, now, the man I’m thinking of is called ‘Wallace’ as a first name, and I don’t know the surname…

  278. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I don’t believe he ever will. As I said in an earlier post I’m sure I heard him say that the nukes would be gone by 2020. I don’t think this is an unrealistic timescale. I’m certain he is fully aware of the necessary need for safe and secure locations to store these ‘toys’ etc and as a result we can not expect to become an independent country in March 2016 and the day after independence expect the nukes to be gone.

    I do believe despite what I’ve just said he will lay down a specific deadline for these nukes to be gone. Cameron can try anything he likes about delaying the final removal date but it will be him, Cameron, who ends up with egg on his face.

  279. John Bell says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:

    28 March, 2014 at 9:16 pm

    @Croompenstein –

    Kezia Dugdale? I actually find her attractive. It’s not just her looks – to me, any woman devoted enough to take their baby into work (especially in the goldfish bowl which is Holyrood, having to face those vicious Nats every day) has to have a lot going for them.

    Three cheers for Kezia!

    http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cXOT6Xi3JHo/0.jpg

    That we’an has the look of the Laird o’ Cumnock aboot it1

  280. goldenayr says:

    GB[grousebeater]
    How?

  281. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Grouse Beater –

    Noted, with interest. Don’t know much about the place as I was only ever there once, when I was about four. I would love to revisit it, but not unless I can do so as a ‘free’ Scot – there’s no way my grandparents came to Scotland willingly. ‘Clearances’ take many forms.

  282. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Arbroath 1320

    Net result we get a currency union and we get rid of the nukes.

    And we get another oil boom off Scotland’s west coast after the nuke subs are gone. Win-win-win.

  283. Arbroath 1320 says:

    And we get another oil boom off Scotland’s west coast after the nuke subs are gone. Win-win-win.

    Absolutely! 😛

    To be honest I was keeping that one back for a rainy day. 🙂

  284. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    A good remark, and a principled one too.

  285. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath 1320
    Really?
    I think that the negotiation regarding Trident might yield even more than your youth can imagine.
    FYI

  286. Alfresco Dent says:

    Want to know what I think have been the most significant six words of the last week?

    “What is there to smile about?”.

    I thought it then and I think it now. She’s history.

  287. Arbroath 1320 says:

    What do you mean goldenayr?

  288. goldenayr says:

    Grouse Beater

    Are you not going to explain?

  289. Grouse Beater says:

    Arbroath 1320

    Our English friends don’t need Trident. They have jellied eels.

    As for Lamont, “there’s nothing so improves the mood of a political party than the imminent execution of a senior colleague.” (Alan Clark)

    An idiot reporter on TV news has just stated an untruth – he said that the governor of the Bank of England said a currency union will not work.

    The governor stated the exact opposite, even corrected reporters when they tried to extrapolate his statement as a negative.

    Sloppy journalism? A Freudian slip? Pig ignorance?

    He said,

    If it is what the politicians decide it’s the bank’s job to make it work.

  290. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    Sorry but did anyone else catch the BBC with their westminster correspondent Adam Fleming blatantly lying through his teeth?

    Not only did he lie about what Mark Carney said on the currency union but he finished his jawdroppingly biased ‘piece’ on News 24 with the lie that there had been no movement in the referendum polls in the past few months.

    How the hell do they get away with this??

  291. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    @Grouse Beater

    I see I didn’t just imagine it. This Fleming guy looked particularly inept and callow even for the dregs the BBC usually have to rely on for their ‘reporting’ on referendum matters.

  292. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath 1320
    Do you really need a negation explained?

    The UK parties are walking right now.
    Q is are they awake or dreaming?

  293. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Our English friends don’t need Trident. They have jellied eels.

    Aha, of course. 😛

    An idiot reporter on TV news has just stated an untruth – he said that the governor of the Bank of England said a currency union will not work.

    I’m assuming this was on BBC. You know you are allowed to call reporters liars, no need to mince your words when talking about them. 🙂

    Sloppy journalism? A Freudian slip? Pig ignorance?

    Think you’ll find that it all three GB. 😛

  294. Ian Brotherhood says:

    FFS, where are all the highlights of Danny Alexander’s speech?

    You think we’re all sitting here for the fun of it?

  295. Arbroath 1320 says:

    The UK parties are walking right now.
    Q is are they awake or dreaming?

    In my view goldenayr the UK parties are walking round in a complete daze. They are punch drunk and have absolutely no idea which way to turn. They have tried every lie in the book so far and every one has been laughed off. If this were a boxing match the referee would have stopped it long ago.

  296. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:

    FFS, where are all the highlights of Danny Alexander’s speech?

    You think we’re all sitting here for the fun of it?

    Well I am I don’t know about you Ian but see me I’m just have a wee laugh now and again. 😛

  297. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Arbroath& Ian Gray’s Subway Lament

    Until we’re free of the slop that is Westminster a Scotsman’s political militancy tends to be confined to shouting “bastards!” at television news programmes.

  298. jingly jangly says:

    Re leak from very junior person, according to latest BBC news, Is it a co-incidence that the UK has just announced the 2nd worst balance of payments figures in its history?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26783713

    Bearing in mind that in a currency union an Independent Scotland would contribute around 40 billion pa to the uk balance of payments. This may explain the leak, one thing for sure its not some junior nobody, its a carefully planned leak.

  299. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath 1320

    Worked for Whitehall/Admiralty Arch for decades.If they admit they’re losing,it’s the time to man the walls.

  300. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Grouse Beater says:

    @ Arbroath& Ian Gray’s Subway Lament

    Until we’re free of the slop that is Westminster a Scotsman’s political militancy tends to be confined to shouting “bastards!” at television news programmes.

    Not just shouting “bastards” GB but also throwing a variety of objects at said television. You just hope that what ever is thrown is soft and cuddly cause if it’s hard you may very well be looking at one hell of a busted television. Still on the bright side you would be adding to the UK’s level of deficit. 😛

  301. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Jingly Jangly

    “A carefully planned leak.”

    That’s no way to talk of the Welsh.

  302. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    @Grouse Beater

    Well there’s that and campaigning to ensure the westminster slop can keep fighting among themselves with no disasterous effects on scotland for a change. We can still laugh at their idiot reporters post Independence after all.

  303. Arbroath 1320 says:

    goldenayr says:

    Arbroath 1320

    Worked for Whitehall/Admiralty Arch for decades.If they admit they’re losing,it’s the time to man the walls.

    Would that be the same wall that Tory Rory Stewart wants to hold his torch parade on? 🙂

    Seriously goldenayr I have a suspicion that if Cameron ever let slip that he was planning anything like an ‘invasion’ of Scotland he would, in my view, become the laughing stock of Europe. For him to do that would turn him into another Putin and after how he has acted, or not, over Putin and Crimea I’m not certain he would want to become a pariah of Europe. I’m certain that the E.U. would certainly have something to say to him, in no small order, concerning his ‘invasion’, implied or real, of another peaceful European country.

  304. HandandShrimp says:

    Ian

    Danny’s speech had highlights? It had doomlights or catastrophelights but highlights?

    I don’t think Danny got the be positive memo

  305. caz-m says:

    Great way to end the day. Just logged in and I see all this love-bombing from UK Misters telling us we can actually keep our pound.

    Ian Brotherhood, hope you find something on Alexander.

    Was he not meant to be saying something about the time, something about five to twelve.

    Come in Fanny Alexander, yer times up

  306. goldenayr says:

    Grouse Beater
    A more complimentary explanation of our Celtic cousins in Clywyd would be “Trews doon,Arse proffered”

  307. Grouse Beater says:

    Danny’s speech had highlights?

    I think he was referring to his hair.

  308. goldenayr says:

    Rev
    Have to agree with you on the Windows8.Just had my photo taken by the laptop.

  309. Grouse Beater says:

    The Unionist poly-tishun’s motto is, if two wrongs don’t make a right, try three.

  310. Alfresco Dent says:

    18/09/14 – Vote aye
    19/09/14 – Party
    20/09/14 – Declare UDI
    21/09/14 – Join Krone
    22/09/14 – Subs oot

  311. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I like your thinking AD 😛

  312. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath 1320
    You really think that all war is physical?

  313. Arbroath 1320 says:

    No I don’t think all war is physical goldenayr, but if Cameron were to try anything against Scotland no matter in what realm it happens he will have to answer to, at the very least, the E.U.

    Despite what Barrosso and Better Together claim the E.U. wants Scotland in the E.U. and anything that stands in the way of preventing that would not look favourably upon rUK.

  314. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Well, see me? Moi is well-chuffed at sticking some dosh on this very afternoon, as reported earlier.

    For anyone who is not au-fait, up-to-speed, or otherwise clued-up about the you-know what? Word to the wise, and you never heard it from me, but this is Gospel, you can strike me down, no two-feathers make a dab and all that palaver, but:

    If you get yourself down to the local tomorrow, sharpish-like, you should be able to get 7/1 on the Yes vote being over 55% of votes cast.

    Seriously.

    They’re giving it away! (And if they say they say ‘ooh, eer, computer says it’s too early‘? You say ‘Bollocks to that! Ladbrokes is saying 7/1, so, what you got, eh?’

    That’s how you do it.

    So? Do it!

  315. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath
    Read my earlier posts on Crimea/Syria.

  316. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I read you post about Putin taking XCrimea in ‘exchange’ for West getting Syria.

  317. Angus says:

    The writer of the article has got it spot on………there are two distinct version of labour’s extremely dodgy vision of the mickey mouse taxation they will never be in power to deliver anyway being given by Lamont and Baker.

  318. Grouse Beater says:

    Seven to one?

    My prediction hasn’t veered from 63% of votes cast, so that’s worth a pony … whatever that is.

  319. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Grouse Beater says:

    Seven to one?

    My prediction hasn’t veered from 63% of votes cast, so that’s worth a pony … whatever that is.

    Well I thought a pony was an animal about 4 ft tall or so, four legs, a tail and a head. Apparently kids ride about on them now and again. 😛

  320. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath
    And?

  321. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Well if you’re saying Putin took Crimea for Syria that’s one thing but what would Cameron be taking Scotland for, what is he giving up?

  322. Grouse Beater says:

    Well, Arbroath, I’m going to follow Ian’s advice and have a flutter. Courage of one’s convictions, and all that. (I’m sure my daughters won’t miss their inheritance.)

  323. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Good on you GB. 😛

  324. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath
    “Cameron Takes Scotland”
    Now there’s a headline The Daily Mail would pay more than the average for.

  325. redcliffe62 says:

    It would seem labour are going to pretend what was in the pamphlet and what Johann said simply did not happen and hope that by changing policy on the fly people will accept it as plausible.
    I am sure a big poster with her quotes and mugshot will prove unhelpful.
    Many voters it seems do not know who she is; they deserve to know before voting.

  326. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I’m surprised that headline has not already appeared in the Daily Mail golenayr. 😛

  327. Bigbricks says:

    No reply from Cooncillor Willie Young in Aberdeen yet, so either onerous affairs of council are causing a delay, or the “Devolution Commission” perhaps haven’t yet given blessing to the final decision (I say decision, but I actually mean possible decision if it can be swung past London Labour, and if Labour win a majority in 2015, and if they then decide to honour their commitment, which is more ifs than I’m going to trust them on). It could also be that he hasn’t yet had the letter from Holyrood though – BT maybe can’t afford to be wasting first class stamps.
    Could this be “bye bye JoLa, hello JaBa?

  328. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Could this be “bye bye JoLa, hello JaBa?

    Is there any difference Bigbricks?

    I mean having watched Baillie at First Minister’s Questions on Thursday I don’t think I actually saw any difference. Oh other than we got MORE laughs as a result of Baillie asking the questions of course. 🙂

  329. goldenayr says:

    Grouse Beater
    Well, Arbroath, I’m going to follow Ian’s advice and have a flutter. Courage of one’s convictions, and all that. (I’m sure my daughters won’t miss their inheritance.)

    OH dear GB,your grammar and use of Oxford etiquette has given you away.One too many Pimms old man?

  330. Arbroath 1320 says:

    It is past the witching hour goldenayr your allowed to be a wee bit free and loose with your grammar. 🙂

  331. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Redcliffe

    Many voters … do not know who she is; [Lamont] they deserve to know before voting.

    Am still chuckling.

    “If you don’t like being shouted at, then politics is not the life for you.”Independence means Scotland walks away from the pound!” George Osbourne

    The Osbourne Supremacy.

  332. goldenayr says:

    Arbroath
    Your Dads a Marine,what are you?
    Apart from someone that made use of the scholarship that he paid for?

  333. Arbroath 1320 says:

    “Independence means Scotland walks away from the pound!” George Osbourne

    The Osbourne Supremacy.

    Unless of course we decide, as we have now done, to agree to a currency union, in which case Scotland does not walk away from the pound.

    Osborne Supremacy (Revised) 😛

  334. Bigbricks says:

    More laughs has got to be good, right? The plan SLAB has may just be to work their way down the ranks until they find an appropriate new leader. I won’t even speculate what bizarre logic might underlie such a decision, for that way lies madness. Either that or it’s

    OH look there’s a red squirrel!!

  335. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Bigbricks says:

    More laughs has got to be good, right? The plan SLAB has may just be to work their way down the ranks until they find an appropriate new leader. I won’t even speculate what bizarre logic might underlie such a decision, for that way lies madness. Either that or it’s

    OH look there’s a red squirrel!!

    I heard that the head cleaner at Labour, North British Branch, Headquarters was up for the job of Labour, North British Branch, leader. 😛

  336. goldenayr says:

    Grouse Beater says:

    29 March, 2014 at 1:08 am

    @ Redcliffe

    “Many voters … do not know who she is; [Lamont] they deserve to know before voting.

    Am still chuckling.

    “If you don’t like being shouted at, then politics is not the life for you.” “Independence means Scotland walks away from the pound!” George Osbourne

    The Osbourne Supremacy.

    You and “Arbroath 1320” are tory plants.

  337. Anthony Armstrong says:

    Mr Baker states that we would control 3/4 of the basic rate tax, does he mean 20 – 15? I thought we were allowed to move the tax rates 15% in total.

    Am I missing something obvious in this mess?

  338. Arbroath 1320 says:

    You and “Arbroath 1320? are tory plants.

    You reckon? 😀

    Ve have our vays of infiltrating vere you go vatever you venever you do it. hee hee hee 😛

  339. goldenayr says:

    I know.

  340. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Damn it our secret is out. There’s no escaping the truth GB, we’ve been found out. I think it’s best we just come clean now, it will be less painless in the long run. 😛

  341. Grouse Beater says:

    “OH dear GB,your grammar and use of Oxford etiquette has given you away.One too many Pimms old man?”

    Oh dear [comma] GB, your grammar and use of Oxford etiquette have given you away. One too many Pimms [comma] old man?

    3/10

  342. Grouse Beater says:

    Osborne Supremacy (Revised)

    Ah, I gave him too much class, Arbroath.

    Here’s a condumdrum to ponder through the night: what idiot concocted the title, “Murder, She Wrote”? Yoda?

    Here’s to a weekend free of unionist drivel. They have all the charisma of a speed bump, and all the authority of a blancmange.

    Signing off ….

  343. goldenayr says:

    It’s either that Arbroath,or you admit to being a neophyte plonker with no understanding of geopolitics.

    Your choice.

  344. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Grouse Beater says:

    “OH dear GB,your grammar and use of Oxford etiquette has given you away.One too many Pimms old man?”

    Oh dear [comma] GB, your grammar and use of Oxford etiquette have given you away. One too many Pimms [comma] old man?

    3/10

    What in heaven’s name is this?

    Are we now relegated to marking each others posts now?

    Think I’d better stop now then cause I’ll never get higher than 1/10 😛

  345. goldenayr says:

    I win.

    Oichde mhath.

    Watch oot for the fox Arbroath/GB.

  346. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Here’s a condumdrum to ponder through the night: what idiot concocted the title, “Murder, She Wrote”? Yoda?

    Why not GB anything is possible these days. 🙂

    Have a good night, it’s been fun. 😛

    A neophyte plonker, who me, nah I don’t do neophytism I just do meaningless comments and if they can inject the possibility of the slightest hint of humour so much the better. Sometimes ‘debates’ can get a wee bit heated don’t you know. 😛

  347. Arbroath 1320 says:

    oichde mhath goldenayr. it’s been fun…I think. 😛

    Don’t worry about the fox, foxes are always welcome here. 🙂

  348. Grouse Beater says:

    Have a good night, it’s been fun.

    It has. Lots. And to see the opposition in disarray.

    Till next time ….

  349. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Ta ta ra noo…

    Toodle pip. 😛

  350. Thepnr says:

    Has Wings been infiltrated by agents of the establishment?

    Haha Of course we have. Big deal, won’t change the result of the vote.

  351. CameronB says:

    Tonight’s choice was a reel tough-y ’cause their were just so many appropriate songs. I was too uncertain to make the right choice, so you get an album tonight. Careful, it’s a bit naughty.

    Re. British Labour;

    Jobbies

    Joe Pesci – Vincent LaGuardia Gambini Sings Just For You
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7rpxsmL-w

  352. CameronB says:

    Here were some of the contenders.

    Wynton Marsalis – “Street of Dreams”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsyKvbFatos

    SAMMY DAVIS JR – GET ON THE RIGHT TRACK, BABY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKxv_PZ5HAM

    KMFDM – Bait And Switch
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_JcjfoTTAQ

  353. john king says:

    O/t
    BBC news 05.30
    Downing street have dismissed reports after
    The Guardian quoted and “unnamed” Minister that “of course that in event if a yes vote the rUK would share the pound with an independent Scotland”.

  354. CameronB says:

    Thepnr
    For track list suggestions, you might get some ideas from Lady Luck series of va albums (seven of them I think). Lot’s of fun, themed appropriately for the time period British Labour operates in and, well APPROPRIATE. 🙂

  355. CameronB says:

    Just checked, there are on four Lady Luck’s.

  356. CameronB says:

    Ma brother put me on to them so I thought I’d pass the info on to another.

    Hope you’re not all running for the sick buckets. 🙂

  357. CameronB says:

    Your ma brother too John but not that Nazi Alex Salmond. 😉

  358. john king says:

    Ian Brotherhood says
    “Kezia Dugdale? I actually find her attractive. It’s not just her looks – to me, any woman devoted enough to take their baby into work (especially in the goldfish bowl which is Holyrood, having to face those vicious Nats every day) has to have a lot going for them.”

    You don’t fool me Ian, I mean look at it, its not real it plastic man ,LOOK and what some numpty was thinking about putting a baby in its arms well, they need arrestin so’in they do

    @Me @5.37 I really wish I would look at the previous posts before posting (beat you to it rev,) I really thought (since the newsreader said it was ,that the pound story was breaking news, instead it was up as early a nine o clock last night, sorry folks (and rough bounds if your watching)
    But before you and mosstrooper pontificate about “knuckle draggers” maybe you’d like to read what Kirsty said @ 21.07
    if a site is TOO high brow people think I’m not clever enough to post there and don’t (so you disenfranchise people whose opinion is just as valid as yours ) said in a language we understand and if its done with humour all the better, why should politics singularly be drab and boring, that’s EXACTLY what puts people off participating,
    If you want verbose stick to Llalands peat worrier whose blogs while entertaining are aimed at a certain part of the electorate who are thinking on a higher plain than your average Joe and no shame to him for that , we need to attract all parts of society which is something YOU would do well to remember, otherwise your input is valued here and always will be (at least for my part).

    Inbihir Anainn says
    “Could we be witnessing the start of Scottish Labour’s Nacht der langen Messer.”

    Id be more inclined to think of more as
    THE NIGHT OF THE LONG KNIVES.
    🙂

    Major Bloodnoc says
    “I know exactly what you are saying. I read my horoscope a few years ago (in Shavers’ Weekly) and all it said was “Unlucky article of clothing: underpants. Unlucky colour: brown.” I mean that’s ridiculous, what’s unlucky about brown underpants?”

    That must have been one long queue in the barbers ,where the hell have you been I was just wondering about you yesterday, off on a foreign sojourn again?

    Alba4eva says
    And don’t call me darling
    what like this?
    well what about Shirley?

  359. john king says:

    Cameron B says
    “Your ma brother too John but not that Nazi Alex Salmond”

    Proud to be called your brother Cameron, trouble sleeping?

  360. john king says:

    Godenayr says
    “Rev
    Have to agree with you on the Windows8.Just had my photo taken by the laptop.”

    Jesus wept, there goes my porridge again ffs why the hell would your laptop take your phot
    eh? what was that flash?
    didinae even get the bloody chance tae comb ma hair and wipe the porridge splatter aff
    I thought I was safe with 8.1 grrr 🙁

  361. john king says:

    Bigbricks says
    “OH look there’s a red squirrel!!”

    Tory plant!
    only a person from rural Perthshire would say “Red Squirrel” now I don’t know about you but I couldn’t afford a house where you get red squirrels so fess up bigbricks. 🙂
    I suppose you shop at the House of Bruar as well so you don’t have to mix with the normal people?

  362. Gary says:

    The other explanation for this answer is that this was the ORIGINAL proposal, the one that The Ed Miller Band rejected as it may have ran counter to their UK policy if applied in a still devolved Scotland. This would make SOME sense because I can’t believe that it would take more than half a dozen grownups TWO YEARS to come up with the thinnest proposal I’ve ever seen.

  363. john king says:

    Arboath1320 says
    “Damn it our secret is out. There’s no escaping the truth GB, we’ve been found out. I think it’s best we just come clean now, it will be less painless in the long run. :P”

    Ye’see tarring and feathering’s too good for people like you.

    So you’ve got a 5 minute head start them we let go of the bloodhounds! 😉

  364. CameronB says:

    Not long up actually. I go for a while before burning out. No rhythm and a bit disorientating. Hi Ronnie.

    Anyhoo ;9 how are are taxes spent?

    Well the DETERMINER when deciding on infrastructure investment, is what gives best VALUE. This is etablished by a combination of cost-benefit analysis, environmental impact assessment, social impact assessments and so on. A very convoluted, ineffective and wholly MISLEADING state of affairs, IMO, as most costs and benefits are INTANGIBLE so do not have MONETARY VALUE. Such analysis is essentially misleading due to this fundamental weakness in the theoretical ASSUMPTIONS.

    I think this viewpoint was possibly a factor in my differences with the former top jock at the RTPI.

    In addition, as most benefits of transport infrastructure DEVELOPMENT are accounted for by passenger-mile benefits(time saved, etc.). As such, IMO investment in Scotland will always be hard to justify legally, if a one-size-fits-all One Nation pricing structure is applied.

    I am not aware of s SEPARATE pricing structures being applied in Scotland or what ‘ADDITIONAL’ support we receive to adjust for this fundamental discrepancy between BRITAIN and REALITY.

    Better Together.

    Fucking fraudsters.

  365. CameronB says:

    Bummer. Thought I’d done my proof reading. The wee things. Eh?

  366. CameronB says:

    P.S. A combination of various CBA and EIA is obviously an an improvement on previous practice. It is just that the theoretical foundations of the planning system are flawed, IMO. Scotland is also always going to be at a disadvantage.

    Just saying.

  367. norrie says:

    alicon

    Peter A Bell agress with you. Dead parrots and all that.

    http://ayerightradio.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/lamont-does-monty-python/

  368. CameronB says:

    If folk don’t get the significance of this….think about it.

  369. CameronB says:

    How doe Fabian philosophy keep Britain together?

  370. CameronB says:

    Are you happy with that? I’m not.

    Vote YES

  371. CameronB says:

    Why do you think I studied Planning? It think it was that bit of rope I pick up in ’79, and look where It’s brought me to. 🙂

  372. cearc says:

    Absolutely agree. Passenger mile benefit may be relevant to prioritising upgrades in urban areas but it has no place in the provision of a sound, efficient, national infrastructure which we lack.

  373. cearc says:

    Meanwhile, whilst the WG play pantomime dame over a CU, over in Torygraph landwe see:

    ‘UK current account gap second widest on record.
    Trade deficit £8bn worse than predicted as economists warn it is “storing up problems” for future’

    They seriously expect us to believe that they won’t be begging for a CU?

  374. CameronB says:

    cearc
    I agree, just leaving space for others. 😉

  375. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Naw, this is a Tory plant.

    http://tinyurl.com/pka2dly

  376. goldenayr says:

    John King
    Lucky you if your OS isn’t Windows8.It’s a bit unnerving, when,with one cursor swipe across the page.It goes from desktop to apps to games and then finally a horrible apparition of yourself after a couple of bottles of,a rather tasty,red wine.

  377. bunter says:

    Is it just a coincidence that this CU story appeared at about the same time that a humungous balance
    of payments deficit is announced.

    Is this all about calming the markets with YES on the rise. Hmmm

  378. CameronB says:

    Edit: IMPERIALIST Fabian philosophy.

  379. CameronB says:

    They and British Labour are tainted folks…..best not. Eh?

  380. goldenayr says:

    Well that was interesting.Nick Watt was just on GMS explaining what was said to him re the currency union.
    Seems to think there’ll be a no vote but has just demolished their trump card with his expose.

  381. CameronB says:

    The Strypes – You Can’t Judge A Book By The Cover
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDLL6fngx8

    You Can’t Judge a Book by the Cover — Acoustic (Summer Si…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LR0BfBxIag

    Don’t Judge a Book by its Cover
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGjkkztdnoA

    Think about the CRING and where it comes from. Please.

  382. Croompenstein says:

    @JLT@10:51 – Okay …you got me! What is it about Gaelic that worries / annoys / angers the Rev? I think the Rev could explain it better than me however I think he may harbour a secret desire to adopt Gaelic as the official language in the new Scotland so as we can have place names in Gaelic on all the road signs.. 🙂

  383. Atypical_Scot says:

    Plants;

    One of life’s mystrees.

  384. Andrew Morton says:

    Be very, very afraid. This story has been planted for a reason.

    Think about it, what could split the Yes coalition apart? Trident.

    If someone on the Yes side breaks ranks and starts talking about doing a deal on Trident then the SSP and Greens would part company with the SNP causing a dangerous split which No can exploit. In the meantime, No have total deniability, “it never happened”, “just somebody who’s had one too many doing a bit of speculating”, etc., etc.

    Don’t touch this with a barge pole.

  385. Juanpmontoya says:

    BBC allowing comments on the story relating to the coalition minister who says “Of course there would be a currency union”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26791763

  386. CameronB says:

    Andrew Morton
    I did post a ske tune called “Nuclear Weapon” End off…..lets move on. Brother. 😉

  387. Croompenstein says:

    No pre-negotiation my arse! I am just surprised that they are sticking to the old chestnut about the unassailable lead of the No vote and that the polls have remained steady in favour of No shite. I would have thought they would have tried a bit of reverse psychology by admitting that Yes are in the lead then they could ramp up the doom and the independence isn’t just for Xmas pish to put the shiters up your granny

  388. Alfresco Dent says:

    Alistair Carmichael really does need to consider who he actually represents. Is it his fellow countrymen who actually elected him and who’s name is reflected in his job title? Or is it English Tories?

    Don’t bother telling us you’re a Liberal Democrat and the people who voted for you knew this and that the Liberal Democrats are against independence. The SNP are for independence and got a majority of the vote yet you waste no time in insinuating that the SNP are wasting people’s time and money in pursuing independence. Incidentally – two words, liberal & democrat – I’m amazed you can be against anything at all.

    It’s time to ‘man-up’ Mr. Carmichael. Just who’s side are you on?

  389. Marker Post says:

    I must admit, I’d never heard of Alistair Carmichael before his appointment as Secretary of State. I daresay I won’t hear of him again after Independence.

    And when it comes to the negotiations, I have to ask myself what side of the table he’ll be sitting on.

  390. cearc says:

    Andrew Morton,
    The only way it could be done is by Scotland ceding sovereignty of the territory to them. No Scottish Goverment would survive such a move and besides which Faslane is destined to be the HG for the Scottish Defence Force.

    Anything else would be in breach of the Non-Prolifeation Treaty.

    The only possibilty is a short term transistional arrangement to give them time to remove them.

    It is a re-run of ‘not allowed’ to use a fully tradeable currency. They assume that we are too stupid to know of the existence of international treaties.

  391. CameronB says:

    cearc
    I agree again, brother. Oh I love this group-think. Tee hee. 😉

  392. CameronB says:

    Or sister. 🙂

  393. Marker Post says:

    The other interesting snippet in the Guardian article was this:

    “Jackson Carlaw, deputy leader of the Conservatives in Scotland, who said he would man the barricades to argue for a currency union if Scots voted yes. Carlaw later disowned his remarks”.

    I heard the original Carlaw statement live on a debate on Radio Scotland, it was unequivocal and clear, at the time I thought, “Finally a Scots unionist talking sense”. Hadn’t heard that he had later disowned it, anyone have more info?

  394. HandandShrimp says:

    The Watt story in the Guardian is annoying the hell out of the Unionist types over there. It is all lies! they scream.

    I did like the comment from one of my favourite intemperate semi-trolls over there Guardianmac

    “There is always some dick who can’t keep his mouth shut”

  395. CameronB says:

    Or cross-gender whatever thingy the name is. Apologies for the ignorance. 🙂

  396. HandandShrimp says:

    I am pretty sure Carmichael will be on the Westminster side arguing that the frigate contract be returned to his constituency in Portsmouth. I would not look to Alistair for any favours on behalf of Scotland.

  397. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @Andrew Morton

    I would worry about that problem Andrew. It has been chiseled in stone by the SNP.

    They have revealed their hand and reduced the bargaining value of the base. In fact they know they cannot refuse Scotland using the £ Stg, either just as today or in a currency union, the latter would be FUKrS best option as

    taraaa

    The UK’s balance of payments gap has expanded to the second largest ever, as was announced yesterday. Without Scotland’s oil, whisky, food, electronics and biotechnology the UK would be down the grubber right now. If Scotland shadows the £stg but is not in a CU, then Scottish exports do not show up as £stg exports and the baby will go down the plughole.

    As I said somewhere up in this thread, the planets are aligning.

  398. cearc says:

    Cameron – Sister (cearc=hen),

    Bunter,

    Spot on. I think investment houses and embassies must have full timebods running around assuring everybody that they don’t mean whatever daft thing that they have come out with, ‘It’s just to scare the Scots.’

    Of course, by drawing so much international attention to the currency issue they have rather shot themselves in the foot. The obvious result being investors looking in more detail at how the figures are compiled causing pretty severe jitters when they see just what state the rUK books would be.

  399. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    HandandShrimp

    The Guardian thread yesterday had an exchange from someone of the Unionist persuasion and a bunch of Indy terriers.

    Unionist man pushed that the currency union was rubbish and was himself rubbished by facts about balance of payments. Next he tried the EU canard and was again savaged.

    His parting quip was that we would need to be prepared to get a seat on the UN Security Council after a YES note.

    I gave up after that.

  400. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Hand & Shrimp

    You’ve started my day with a smile and a chuckle, H&S, with that quotation.

    Isn’t it a tonic to see the heel yappers and inane for domination furious that sanity is breaking out everywhere?

  401. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    oops

    NOT to get a Security Council seat

  402. cearc says:

    Them pesky Russkies are at it again, having digs at poor wee Cameron.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10730853/Ukraine-crisis-Crimea-joining-Russia-like-Scotland-staying-in-the-Union.html

    ‘Crimea’s people chose to join Russia because they accepted the same case made by the British Government for Scotland to stay in the Union, according to the Kremlin’s ambassador in London. ‘

    ‘The ambassador added that Crimea’s people “heard the British Government’s argument in the Scotland referendum campaign that it is by far better to be part of a bigger and stable nation”.

  403. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Marker Post

    After democracy wins I wonder what the feeling will be in those who sell Scotland short now, who betray its sovereignty, and attempt to deflect its democratic rights.

    “I always was for autonomy but had to put my party first.”

    And do they think we will admire their loyalty?

    Their honour to their party dishonours them.

  404. Edward says:

    On the Guradian story about Scotland keeping the pound, unusually the BBC have Osborne’s denial open to comments
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26791763

  405. TipTopKat says:

    ok

    I am going to work in figures to try to ensure I get this

    current situation
    top band 45%
    middle band 35%
    bottom band 25%

    We can reduce all at the same time -this is not good because it gives the rich a tax break?
    top band 40%
    middle band 30%
    bottom band 20%

    we can raise the top one but not the ones below that
    top band 50%
    middle band 35%
    bottom band 25%

    No here is where it gets interesting
    We can’t cut the top one unless we cut them all
    top band 45%
    middle band 30%
    bottom band 20%

    assume this path then gives us tax cut for the poor and the ability to not be constrained by the UK

    so looks like they have attempted to make it difficult (unpopular) by constraining that all bands must be cut at the same time

    however another way that they have totally missed – there is no constraint on how much

    current situation
    top band 45%
    middle band 35%
    bottom band 25%

    reduction to all bands
    top band 44.95%
    middle band 32%
    bottom band 20%

    assume this would be fairly palatable to all of scotland -big cuts for the poor wee cuts for the rich

    that is what they were trying to stop us doing by forcing the bands together – ie cut for the rich = political suicide hence no cuts for anyone = not able to undercut UK

    Am I on the right track?

  406. Juteman says:

    That’s a hilarious quote, cearc. I like the Russian sense of humour,

  407. bookie from hell says:

    clegg–false patriotism–I guess it depends where u make the speech

    Conference diary: Clegg raises Lib Dem spirits with patriotic speech

    Monday, 10 March 2014 7:34 AM

    Clegg puts patriotism at the heart of his spring conference speech

    By Charlotte Henry

    Loving the UK has become something of a theme amongst politicians these days. It’s one of those less desirable imports from US politics, where macho patriotism is everything. The Daily Mail said Ed Miliband’s father didn’t. Keith Vaz asked the Guardian’s Alan Rusbridger if he does. Today it was Nick Clegg’s turn to make declarations of love. His were rather charming actually.

  408. CameronB says:

    Unitary states are Better Together. 🙂

  409. Grouse Beater says:

    “False patriotism”?

    Whenever they talk of the United Kingdom they mean England. Every now and then they let slip the truth.

  410. bookie from hell says:

    clegg point is if your a Scot it’s false,but if it’s UK fine

    only 19 days between each speech

  411. Grouse Beater says:

    Scotland is asked to remain an annexe of English priorties. It’s the old colonial argument to “civilise.”

  412. CameronB says:

    KRS-One & Tom Morello – Rappaz R.N. Dainja (Chain Me To The Gear Remix)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR8iAhNqDFM

  413. ScottyL says:

    It appears to me that Scottish Labour are not genetically programmed to make political decisions

  414. Grouse Beater says:

    We’re asked to stay in the United Kingdom to share its benefits but not to the extent we are represented on Any Questions when it is not in Scotland on its annual visit.

  415. seanair says:

    Have come late to this delightful revelation but enjoying the banter.
    Ewan McColm thinks it’s a senior Tory so that rules it out in my mind since Ewan talks more pish than most “journalists”. If I were a betting man I might put a Joint Currency Pound or two on Vince Cable being the source. Liberal/Guardian man, not happy with some of the Coalition policies, etc.
    Any other suggestions?

  416. Papadox says:

    @cearc says:

    Spot on! If there is no currency union then the whole house of Westminster cards come tumbling down, and a lot more be sides. So they are trying to frighten the Scottish goats, while pacifying
    the markets, in private.

    The detailed negotiations on the currency union is the only thing in doubt, and we won’t know that till after independence. Don’t see this being a big problem as it works across the world and has done for a long time.

    When you here ENGLISH regional news the word BRITAIN very seldom gets an airing, the default position is England (meaning Britain).

  417. Croompenstein says:

    wonder what our old friends Lindsay and Alec make of all this, they did go on a bit about the currency..LOL

  418. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Seanair

    I think Cable’s value has dropped considerably since his celebrity days on the talkj show circuit as, “The Only Politician To Predict the Economic Crash.”

    He’s made many missteps and gaffs politically, and shown himself not at all adept at governance.

    But following your line of deduction it does lead to him as a man more prone to openness than the closed ranks of the colonial British establishment.

  419. Robert Louis says:

    Ah, so now the picture becomes clear. Westminster wants to keep the subs, thinks Scotland will agree to keep them in return for currency union, but a problem, iScotland haing nuclear warheads would breach the nuclear anti proliferation treaty… solution (as leaked last year from Westminster) annexe faslane as UK soil. Probelm solved as far as London is concerned.

    From my perspective and that of almost all Scots, the very first thing we do once independent, is get rid of those leaking, toxic and extremely unstable nuclear warheads from right next to Scotland’s largest city. No other nation on earth would base WMD’s adjacent to its largest population centre. It is, aside from anything else, just freaking stupid.

    Now the backstabbing amongst better together ‘partners’ has begun (Darlings days are limited), it can only get messier. IMHO, the unnamed senior Government minister who spoke to The Guardian confirming a currency union would of course happen, was most likely Carmichael himself.

    Anyway, now everybody can see Westminster really are lying when they talk about no possibility of a currency union. I think this is most appropriate:

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/littledanny.jpg

  420. john king says:

    I think this post a yes vote England will share the pound is a bit of fishing, this is when we don’t blink,we maintain NO CHANCE of allowing those subs to stay at Faslane so just HOW MUCH does not sharing the pound mean to you? we should not negotiate with them over Faslane that needs to be written in tablets of stone if the new Scottish government is to have any legitimacy at all, at all stages they need to be reminded WE HAVE OTHER OPTIONS, no blinking.

  421. Paula Rose says:

    I’m not really sure I understand this – they now want a currency union as they’ve realised it’s in their best interests, but still think they can pass it off as a gift to Scotland if we look after their status symbol?

  422. Croompenstein says:

    Bluff, Bluster and Bullying right enough..the other guy has just blinked..come on Scotland..Yes we can

  423. Atypical_Scot says:

    Comments open on the beeb re. currency union leak.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26791763

    Plus radio interview with the journalist Watt.

    Hilarious.

  424. john king says:

    BtP Ssays
    “I would worry about that problem Andrew. It has been chiseled in stone by the SNP.”

    Ha great minds think alike,

    Precisely my take on it as well, anyone who even as much as whispered a falling back on removing the subs would be hung from the nearest lamppost,
    this has become a defining factor in the independence campaign to lose that to something as palpably obvious a feint as this is would indeed make us too stupid to run our own country,
    I do agree with Andrew that this is certainly an attempt at driving wedges into the solidarity of the yes camp but you need to be blind not to see it for what it is
    does anyone seriously think there would be a mass panic attack within the yes camp on the back of this?
    More like satisfied smiles watching a plan come together!

  425. john king says:

    BtP says
    “NOT to get a Security Council seat”

    Jing (runs about like a headless chicken ) what are we to do, woa is us we’ll be like all of the other counties on the world who dont have a seat on the security council,
    omg that will make us the same as the other 191 countries who don’t have a-permanent-seat-on-the-security—-?
    why is that an issue again?

  426. john king says:

    Seanair says
    “Any other suggestions?”

    Michael Gove!

  427. Atypical_Scot says:

    hung from the nearest lamppost,

    Trident to be moved as soon as it be safely done.

    That means building a yard from scratch away from populated areas. That could take years, the bureaucracy will take years. The damned things will be on the Clyde for at least a decade.

    Wager whichever SG is in power, they will help delay the removal to suit a bargain. As long as trident does finally go, no need to look for any lampposts.

  428. CameronB says:

    john king
    I was waiting for that correction to be picked up. Can’t fall in to BBC practice now. Can we?

  429. john king says:

    Paula Rose says
    “I’m not really sure I understand this – they now want a currency union as they’ve realised it’s in their best interests, but still think they can pass it off as a gift to Scotland if we look after their status symbol?”

    If we can all individually come to same conclusion (and I did not read the earlier posts ) it seems we can see clearly through the tissue thin no camps clothes and what’s to be seen underneath is not an edifying sight! SNAP Paula Rose
    Oh god I’m starting to feel like Maverick

  430. CameronB says:

    Bugger (the Panda)
    Just spotted you’d already taken care of things. Can’t let WEE DETAILS trip us up. 😉

  431. john king says:

    atypical Scot says
    “Trident to be moved as soon as it be safely done.”

    Or they could do what they secretly want to do and scrap it!

    Cameron B
    “I was waiting for that correction to be picked up.”

    Eh?

  432. CameronB says:

    john king
    See above.:)

  433. CameronB says:

    Buster Brown & The Upsetters – What A Price
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzI2c4KPmhU

  434. Croompenstein says:

    Has anyone asked Flipper what his Plan ‘B’ is?

  435. CameronB says:

    Buster Brown & The Upsetters – How Could I Forget
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrTW5rONJIU

  436. Sandra says:

    I went back to Rev’s transcript of the interview

    LAMONT: The power we’ve got is not to cut below what the UK rate is, so the UK rate is set and then we can’t cut below that.

    The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.

    Looks like a Labour car crash is about to unfold

    Can I suggest those who have received emails forward to the BBC/Newspapers

    mean it’s not that I want to see Lamont on tv again – but really if I have to watch her answer this one I could just about force myself to watch
    🙂

  437. Atypical_Scot says:

    The UK is too international offensive to decommission Trident.

  438. Thepnr says:

    @john king aka Maverick
    Trident will be scrapped in the event of a Yes vote. FUK could not afford on it’s own to pay for it’s replacement.
    It will likely hang around for a few years, like a bad smell and then it will be…gone.

  439. CameronB says:

    Lee Perry – Mad House 🙂
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUfnuqVB0qU

  440. FlimFlamMan says:

    It doesn’t matter what currency is used; after independence Scotland’s exports will sit on Scotland’s balance sheet. They will be Scottish trade, not rUK trade. A currency union won’t magically move them to rUK’s balance sheet.

    Do Germany’s exports sit on Spain’s balance sheet, or France’s?

    The huge – relative to other countries – and growing external deficit that the UK runs will likely get worse with the loss of Scottish exports. This is true, but it is precisely why a union would be damaging to the rUK. That deficit is sustainable only because the UK has its own currency.

    Without it they would be at the mercy of bond markets and/or whatever external authority controls the post independence pound. Just as the Euro countries have been at the mercy of the markets and the ECB, and those with external deficits have been forced into everything from contraction and stagnation to outright depression.

    An rUK only pound would likely fall in value, who knows how much, but it would allow them to finance that external deficit. Without that they’d be in the same position as Spain and Greece etc. at the first sign of a downturn.

  441. liz says:

    Re currency union – it seems to be the one thing that gets the rUK folks on the guardian to go ballistic.

    They seem to be very upset by that idea as in – go if you want, we’ll be glad to see the back of you but you are not having OUR currency.

    A lot of them haven’t realised yet that the WM politicians don’t care what the voters think as long as they can sell enough promises to get voted in.

    Most indy posters on the guardian kept saying that a CU will be decided by the markets and not Gideon but the rUK posters were so proud of him for sticking up for their £.

    Some of us were slagging off this attitude as being typical guardian readers they were supposed to be liberal, left wing, and supporters of every minority group on the planet but were all praising Gideon.

    I think Darling and also the Secretary of Portsmouth will be set up to take the fall as the folk in the south feel more anger for Scottish MPs so I think the Alexander bros can say goodbye to safe seats in the south if it is a Yes in September.

  442. Croompenstein says:

    @FlimFlamMan – The currency union is vital to Scotland taking it’s fair share of the debt. As the FM has pointed out on many many occasions if we don’t get our share of the assets how can we take our share of the liabilities.

  443. john king says:

    Thepnr says
    “It will likely hang around for a few years, like a bad smell and then it will be…gone.”

    I agree and call me Brett,
    just not when Albalaha’s around,
    she thinks I’m certifiable as it is 😉

  444. Papadox says:

    Independence is the name of the game and that is the key to everything else. Once we are independent the currency, nukes, what flag we use is our call. If we want to go in a huff right now and reject independence, then Westminster will keep their nukes here till doomsday and we won’t be able to do a thing about it.

    Westminster are playing the oldest card in the pack DIVIDE AND RULE, surely we ar’nt going to fall for that one. TO STUPID. I hope not.

  445. CameronB says:

    liz
    Depending on where you are, even “mate” can take you to interesting places. 🙂

  446. john king says:

    Atypical Scot
    “The UK is too international offensive to decommission Trident.”

    I think Obama will be the judge of that 🙂

  447. Thepnr says:

    THEY caused the divide. WE rule.

  448. FlimFlamMan says:

    @Croompenstein

    Absolutely, I’m not arguing against that. Sterling, the Bank of England etc. are assets, so if Scotland doesn’t get a share of those assets it also shouldn’t get a share of the corresponding liabilities.

  449. john king says:

    Papadox says
    “Westminster are playing the oldest card in the pack DIVIDE AND RULE, surely we ar’nt going to fall for that one. TO STUPID. I hope not.”

    3 years ago I would have said there’s a good chance of the Scots falling for it but look at how far we’ve all come.
    with the support of the rev we have been able to listen to

  450. Atypical_Scot says:

    It’s an US and them world…,

    Interesting O/T graphic; 2010 UK wide general election results for Angus, Scotland. If more people were like us sub-teucters, the FM would have been running Westminster

    😛

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/constituency/674/angus

  451. CameronB says:

    Buster Brown & The Upsetters – To Love Somebody
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krsF3sStgF8

  452. john king says:

    must have pressed enter sorry,

    SLAB and hear what they are really saying and not what they would like us to hear,

    I think your average Joe on the street is much more astute than he was even a year ago and able to smell shite when its dropped in front of him!

  453. CameronB says:

    john king
    And I thought you were setting the stage. 😉

  454. FlimFlamMan says:

    Croompenstein

    I posted this link before, but it’s worth repeating:

    http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html

  455. cearc says:

    FlimFlamMan,

    Our balance sheet, yes, but for the purpose of valuing the pound if we are in a currency union they are lumped together. Just as
    Germany, France, Spain and all the eurozone countries assets and liabilities are lumped together to value the euro.

    So with a formal currency union the pound stays as is. Without it the rUK’s balance sheet takes a huge knock and with it the value of the pound.

  456. FlimFlamMan says:

    cearc

    It’s not the value of the pound that matters, it’s the ability to finance the external deficit. That ability is tied to controlling the currency; if rUK does not control its own currency it will be exposed to the bond markets in the same way that Spain, Greece, etc. are.

    Germany’s contribution to the overall Euro currency area’s balance sheet does does hold the Euro’s value higher than would otherwise be the case, all else equal, but it does not protect the financing abilities of those Eurozone countries which run external deficits. Their economies have been forced into stagnation and depression, not directly because of their external deficits – those deficits are all smaller than the UK’s – but because of the combination of external deficit and lack of currency control.

  457. John D aka Nkosi says:

    right hand, left hand?

  458. Derek Morison says:

    I’ve had the same reply (as Baker) verbatim from Anne McTaggart stating power to raise/lower tax above/below UK level

  459. karen says:

    Look what I just got from Rhoda Grant & David Stewart – looks like they cut ‘n pasted.

    Dear Constituent,
    Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.
    As you can imagine, as with all organised letter drops, we have received a significant number of copies – so, I hope, you will excuse the shared reply.
    The Labour Party is the Party of devolution. Our founder, Keir Hardie, promoted Home Rule in the early 1900s, we participated in the Constitutional Convention in the 1980s and in 1999 we delivered a Scottish Parliament. In 2012, we extended these powers further when we supported the Scotland Act. And in 2016, as a result of these changes, the biggest transfer of fiscal powers since the Act of Union will take place.
    In spring 2012, Johann Lamont established a Devolution Commission to examine what could be done to strengthen devolution further. Following two years of deliberations and a yearlong public consultation, we published our proposals on 18th March. The final report of the Commission was endorsed unanimously by Scottish Labour Party Conference on 21st March.
    Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country, and in which those with the broadest shoulders and greatest resources contribute most to the support of those in need.
    Our report is wide-ranging and includes a number of recommendations, including:

    · Further devolution of income tax, discussed in more detail below.

    · Devolution of housing benefit and attendance allowance, to align more closely the provision of benefits in an area closely related to devolved services.

    · Devolution of the work programme to Scottish local authorities to better meet the needs of local labour markets.

    The report of the commission is extensive and also includes proposals to increase the powers available to our island communities, to improve local democratic accountability and to establish better enforcement mechanisms for health and safety in Scotland, including the establishment of a Scottish Health and Safety executive.

    On income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.

    · Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.

    · We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.

    · This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.

    · The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.

    · Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.

    · Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.

    Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

    Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.

    Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website at http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/campaigns/entry/devolution-commission

    Yours sincerely,

    Rhoda Grant MSP David Stewart MSP

    Rhoda Grant MSP David Stewart MSP

    Highlands and Islands Regional MSP

    Tel: 01463 716299

    Email: Rhoda [dot] Grant [dot] msp [at] scottish [dot] parliament [dot] uk

    Email: David [dot] Stewart [dot] msp [at] scottish [dot] parliament [dot] uk

    Rhoda Grant MSP

    David Stewart MSP

  460. The Man in the Jar says:

    Today 02/04/2014 at 16:20 I received an email reply from MSP Michael McMahon.

    I won’t reproduce it here as it is basically the standard cut and paste job that Labour has been sending out. Including the preamble about Keir Hardie.

  461. M Mackintosh says:

    Just for the record I got the same cut and paste job at 2 p.m. on 1st April. Although it was signed by Rhoda Grant and David Stewart, it was sent from an Andrew MacKintosh’s e-mail at the Scottish Parliament. Wonder if he’s been sitting at a desk sending out the standard response on everyone’s behalf.



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