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Wings Over Scotland


The darling of the comrades

Posted on July 26, 2016 by

A new YouGov poll of Scottish voters was released today. It had no voting-intention figures, and concerned itself mostly with people’s assessment of the main Scottish and UK party leaders. The Labour-voters column was interesting to say the least.

labmay

That’s rather a lot of love for a Tory PM from people who voted Labour at the last UK election just over a year ago – more of Scottish Labour’s remaining voters found Theresa May likeable than dislikeable. But then things got even weirder.

labvoters

Yes, you’re reading those figures right. By a titanic margin, Scottish Labour voters’ favourite Holyrood (or Westminster) leader is…

ruthdavidsonconf3

The Scottish Conservatives’ camera-loving tank-straddler gets a thumping +58 approval rating from Labour voters, compared to just +12 for their own leader Kezia Dugdale and a miserly +10 for the First Minister.

We already knew we were living in strange times, readers, but that might just about put the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.

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    1. 26 07 16 18:57

      The darling of the comrades | speymouth

    280 to “The darling of the comrades”

    1. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ludicrous!

      Where did they do this survey – the Tory party offices?

    2. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      I should of course note that technically the question is “doing well as leader”, and a fair-minded Labourite would have to concede that taking the Tories past Labour to be the biggest opposition party is doing well.

      But by that logic, you’d have to concede that two landslide victories in two elections for Nicola Sturgeon was also decent going, but they haven’t. It’s Wee Ruthie the Labour voters love.

    3. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Rev Stu,

      No surprise to me they are just a bunch of Red Tories blinding by their hatred of the SNP

    4. Bob Mack says:

      Could this be the strong polarisation effect of being seen as the Union protector ?

      I’m pretty sure that there is a strong presence of hard line Unionists within Labour ranks, and by that I mean O/o and masonic. I have seen this within Labour council authorities where special dispensations are given to certain sections without regard to the wishes of the majority..

    5. Jake Gittes says:

      UKOK opinion is coalescing around Davidson. No surprise, Dugdale is MIA.

      Shows the NO SURRENDER mentality is alive an well among Slab’s key voter demographic – OAP’s

    6. Macart says:

      Ooft!

      I knew they were headed down a shaky path, but I think they may have gone a tad too far there. 😮

    7. Stoker says:

      Aye, Red Ruth has a certain ring to it, eh!
      Or should that be a case of The Red Truth?

      Hooray for Holyrood!

    8. galamcennalath says:

      “Scottish Labour voters’ favourite Holyrood leader is… Ruth Davidson.”

      Well, a big chunk of those who voted Labour in the 2015 GE went on to vote for the Ruth Davidson Party in this year’s Holyrood election.

      The poll split voters by GE voting. It would have been more up to date and made more sense if it had used Holyrood voting.

      What this survey shows is how well recent Ruth Davidson (I’m not really a Tory) marketing has succeeded.

    9. Luigi says:

      Aye, there are still plenty of red tories voting Labour in Scotland. What this OP does show is that Buffalo Rider may have not peaked before the Holyrood election in May. Kezia may have gotten off lightly!

      It does say a lot about the leanings of many residual Labour voters (what’s left of them): Mostly old, staunch yoon, mostly BREXIT and irrational hatred of the SNP. These folk wpould rather go down with the union than think of an alternative, progressive future.

    10. Inverclyder says:

      This must mean that Scottish Labour members and Scottish Tories of the Vote Ruth for a Stronger Opposition Party are completely interchangeable.

      Help me Rona who’d have thunk it!

    11. ‘Do you think Nicola Sturgeon is doing well or badly as first minister?’…. SNP voters: ‘totally badly’ 13%… Whit!.. Who did they ask? Gordon Wilson & Jim Sillars?

    12. ScottishPsyche says:

      Is Ruth the leader Slabbers wished they had? I suspect it is more what she represents than her actual performance as she has been dire.

      Do the remaining dregs of Slab have any core Labour principles or are they, as we all suspect, the hard core that identify more with Tom Harris, Jim Murphy and that ilk?

      Jeremy Corbyn must seem like their biggest nightmare.

    13. Ian McLean says:

      I see they used voting at the UK GE to achieve the weighting.

      Maybe it included a lot of the tactical voters from Red Morningside

    14. Where the fudge did they find 192 people who still admit to being supporters of the despised/corrupt Scottish Labour Party,

      as mentioned all that is left of the SLP are yoons,cringers,blairites and hacks,

      we always new SLP were just Red Torys,

      now there is proof.

    15. Dan Huil says:

      I think it’s what most of us predicted after the Westminster election: it’s now pro-indy versus anti-indy until Scotland regains its independence.

    16. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Red Tories aka diehard unionist Tories of a different hue. The Slabbers would be as well just calling it a day now and merging with the Blue Toerags. Both have no interest in helping Scotland and both should be consigned to the dustbin once independence is achieved. No future for you, you unionist lickspittles.

    17. Ian says:

      Would have been good if they had split labour into old/new and the tories into EU in/EU out to reflect the real situation regarding these two dinosaurs.

    18. Ruglonian says:

      😀

      So is it still red tories, or is blue labour now more appropriate?

      😀

    19. Meg merrilees says:

      Just proves how successful the constant media adoration and insidious reporting of the Tank Commander has become! Agree with Bob @5.46. Scary stuff!

      Wonder what the stats would be if they had actually asked “Do you think Nicola Sturgeon is doing well or badly as leader of the SNP?” (level playing field) – It’s a subtle difference!

      Nicola’s still on 60% overall and even if Ruthie and co. think she won the last election, she’s only on 40% overall. Poor Kez!

    20. JLT says:

      So …it seems that those ‘Unionists’ who proclaimed that they backed the Labour Party for decades are now finally displaying their overall identity, and that is, no matter who it is, they will follow those that will guarantee the future of the British Union.

      The question that really needs to be asked of the Labour supporters when it comes to personal beliefs is …do they put the Queen, the Union and the idea of ‘Britain’ itself before their own basic socialist ideals and principles?

      If they said ‘Yes’, then either deep down, they were true supporters of the British State which means they either have a very basic understanding of Socialist concepts and political theory and therefore were following the wrong party, or they were deceiving themselves utterly. True Socialist ideals cannot be unified with the political regime of the British Establishment and the privileged state that we reside under. They are not similar bedfellows. Not even close.

      And looking at the Scottish Conservatives, it’s not as if Ruth has been waving a red flag and crying out for ‘fraternity equality liberty’ for the Scottish masses …very far from it! Ruth is an advocate of the British State and what it truly stands for …and it’s not for social equality in any shape of form.

      The simple truth is …that some of these Labour supporters either (1) harboured a real love of the British State no matter how it was governed from the various aspects of the right-wing spectrum; (2) were politically naïve, or (3) were kidding themselves over their political principles.

      But what the poll does tell us, is what most of us here believed was the true result of the last Scottish elections, and that is, the people of Scotland whether they like it or not, have to decide between Independence or Conservatism.

      I believe that poll confirms that question.

    21. Of course if there are only three Labour voters left in Scotland and two of them think Nicola is doing badly it shows as 66% of Labour voters think Nicola is doing badly. Who cares?

      These figures are actually meaningless.

    22. mealer says:

      Davidson knows how to make the best of a supportive media.I think this is evident from this survey.It also,I think,shows the effects of polarisation now that indyref2 is in people’s minds.

      I’ve been wondering who had enough credibility to lead the next No campaign and making the assumption they wouldn’t want it led by a “toxic Tory”.Its becoming increasingly clear that the Tories will have to lead from the front because nobody has any faith in Labour.Even their own supporters.Davidson will have to put clear water between herself and London though.

    23. drawdeaddave says:

      As we knew many months ago it all boils down to.. SNP v Tory aka Independence v Unionism & with brexit, broken promises & UK Labour in turmoil resulting in Tory dominance at WM for as long as the eye can see, surely this poll result is not a bad thing, place your bets…

    24. Dan Huil says:

      @mealer 7:00pm

      Good point. Davidson will have to lead the No campaign. Can only be good for Yes.

    25. carjamtic says:

      Good post Rev. Highlighting what so many of already know and have known for some time.

      “The rat race is for rats.We’re not rats.We’re human beings”

      Jimmy Reid – 1972

      Annual Jimmy Reid Foundation Lecture
      University of Glasgow
      24/11/2015

      Speaker: Rt. Hon.Nicola Sturgeon MSP,First Minister of Scotland.

      ‘Workers Rights,are Human Rights’

      Open your eyes

    26. MochaChoca says:

      Of course the pragmatic amongst us could acknowledge that she is doing well as leader of her party without actually approving of her policies.

      The question is whether there are that many pragmatists still voting labour?

    27. Valerie says:

      I think it’s confirming what we knew. The red Tory politician attracts red Tory members, and when Kez descended into incomprehension, they voted for the Davidson party in May this year

      I feel uneasy, because we have to address the Indy argument to No voters, but they are a committed Unionist, fact resistant, unionism not socialism bunch.

      I see so many arguments and discussion with unionists, presenting hard fact, and they just rubbish it.

      This is the issue that concerns me, more than any other.

    28. Thepnr says:

      @JLT

      Good post, there are very few “real” Labour voters now who in reality are not just Tories in disguise.

      Those that believe Ruth Davidson or Kezia Dugdale is doing a better job than Nicola Sturgeon are out and out Red Tories.

      I don’t believe though that we have yet picked the last of the meat from the Labour party voters. No, we have a bone to gnaw on yet until there are left bare.

      Then we deal with the real enemies of Scotland. The Tory Party.

    29. defo says:

      Someones tea is oot !

      You would have thought at least one SNP identifying polee might have given the Dug the top performance rating.
      She’s doing splendidly, overseeing the inevitable demise of her party,( one of the triumvirate of evil) in the manner of to which they have become accustomed.

      The wee Dutch boy needn’t get too comfy either, it’s only a matter of time until the rictus grin is wiped away by cold, hard reality hitting home. A Stooge, to NS straight girl.

    30. Douglas Gourlay says:

      O/T
      From Reuters today, regarding the potential new free trade agreements being sought by the Westminster govt.
      The future, if we stay in the uk, will not be good.

      Over the next 12 months Price’s team would start working through the options for a U.S. deal, and the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (T-TIP), which the United States is now negotiating with the EU, is “a great piece of work to build upon,” he said. “I suspect we’d push for even greater liberalism within it,” Price added.

    31. This comes as no surprise at all.

    32. Thepnr says:

      This is a disaster for those that still trusted Labour in Scotland. I’m sorry but I have to tell you folk that you no longer have a party that you might once have believed in.

      I learned that lesson.

      They are in the past and now you only have the Red Tories, those that what want to wipe out the likes of Corbyn.

      Cast off those chains and join us in support of an Independent Scotland.

    33. heedtracker says:

      I have never heard or read a bad word Ruthie Babes anywhere, so it probably says a lot about great BBC led media PR. Well not great, its incredible really. Look at just a taster of just phoney centre left rancid The Graun’s relentless groveling, to a very nasty tory indeed

      http://archive.is/jsbwo

      Thatcher 2 would kill for Ruthie babes levels of media worship and probably will too.

    34. Ian Mackay says:

      Although Scotland’s 5 demands over Brexit presented by the First Minister to a dithering UK Government could all be met by Westminster consenting to a Reverse Greenland exit whereupon Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar takes the mantle of the UK (and in effect England and Wales break away) – this is highly unlikely to happen.

      Westminster can’t have their cake and eat it. And the whole mess is their own fault.

      Likewise although Labour want both Scotland to stay in the UK and the EU, as Westminster won’t grant a Reverse Greenland, they will be forced to make a choice.

      Its the UK or the EU, not both.

      What way will Labour jump? By the looks of their members’ responses in that survey, only the Blairite right wing of the party remain in Scotland & the Corbyn effect must be pretty limited in Scotland. As others have noted it probably reflects an elderly unionist irrational SNP-BAD membership base.

      Which would tend to suggest that the Red Tories would pick the UK over the EU.

      I doubt they are smart enough to realise that that move would be signing Labour in Scotland’s own death warrant.

      Or maybe they think that being reduced to 1 MP in Scotland, and being ousted as Scotland’s main opposition is still a good result and they can’t reduce any further.

      My guess is that they will try and cling on to the ‘Reverse Greenland’ holding position – to be in both Unions – for as long as they can. Ideally, for them, they would seek to maintain it right up to the 2017 Council Elections. A good result in that and they would probably side with the UK. A bad result should probably mean they should side with the EU… because that would mean that their vote had fragmented further both to the SNP and Tories.

      Yet what they SHOULD do and what they ACTUALLY do for Labour is hard to predict.

      They should probably ask John McTernan first. And then do the opposite. That’s the safest course, it seems.

    35. John Edgar says:

      The last death throes of the Union.
      Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.

    36. HandandShrimp says:

      What is left of the Lib Dems might just as well be Tories by the looks of it.

      As for Labour, Heaven knows what they are doing. They seem intent on destroying themselves despite having a leader that is popular with the membership.

    37. Luigi says:

      Dan Huil says:

      26 July, 2016 at 6:18 pm

      I think it’s what most of us predicted after the Westminster election: it’s now pro-indy versus anti-indy until Scotland regains its independence.

      Indeed. And time is on our side (NO voters only majority in groups aged 55+). The indy fault line is one which Labour cannot cope with. The future for the red tory party looks bleak:

      Sqeeeeeeeeze. 🙂

    38. Robert Peffers says:

      So what have I been telling anyone who would listen for all those years?

      The Westminster Unionist parties are all just different parts of, “The Westminster Establishment”. Like many other political parties who began as the opposition to the Westminster Establishment Labour soon were converted to serve their own self interest and instead of fighting the Establishment they joined it.

      Take the history of the very first Labour Party Member of Parliament, Kier Hardie.

      Hardie began as a Scottish Home Rule advocate yet Labour has never seriously fought for home rule. So for the entire life of the Labour Party Home Rule has been no more than lip service as Labour Policy.

      Hardie soon changed from being a radicle to being a fully paid up member of the Establishment.

      All Unionist parties are without doubt just different names for the political wing of, “The Establishment”, that will always forget their supposed political opposition to each other and close ranks to stand together in support of the Establishment against all outsiders.

    39. velofello says:

      @ heedtracker: well you missed my comments way back before Indy1

      I attended a Ruthie meeting incognito – jacket, shirt and tie clad. I wouldn’t trust her to bury me.

      Her tank and buffalo photo opts are so ludicrous yet the BBC and MSM afford her credibility and so much more publicity than that other buffaloon our UKIP MEP, whatever his name is.

      Then we have another buffaloon, Boris, James Bond, 007’s boss.

      Who’d have ever thought that the Carry On films were in fact a prediction of UK politics.

    40. ScottishPsyche says:

      @Heedtracker 7.54 pm

      I see that was written by Susie Boniface aka ‘fleetstreetfox’ who delivered a hatchet piece on Momentum in the Mirror today:

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/momentum-killing-labour-party-only-8495661

    41. Luigi says:

      Ian Mackay says:

      26 July, 2016 at 7:58 pm

      What way will Labour jump?

      Sadly, when push comes to shove, Labour will go down with the union. Guaranteed.

    42. Luigi says:

      What happened in May 2015, is that the red tories who abandoned Thatcher after poll tax, and who Blair managed to entice into voting NEW Labour, went back to their natural home.

    43. fionan says:

      Yougov sifts its respondents before asking questions like these so I wouldn’t read very much into it at all. Take yougov polls with a big pinch of salt!

      I complete most yougov polls online, and often never get allowed past the consumer questions because they ask who you voted for previously, or sometimes slightly more subtle questions to assign you by your political beliefs.

      I completed a poll for them about three days ago, which asked about my opinion of Thatcher2, but never went onto the questions shown here. I suspect it was the same survey but that my responses have been screened out as I am an SNP/YES supporter

    44. Polscot says:

      Ian Mackay says:
      26 July, 2016 at 7:58 pm
      Although Scotland’s 5 demands over Brexit presented by the First Minister to a dithering UK Government could all be met by Westminster consenting to a Reverse Greenland exit whereupon Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar takes the mantle of the UK (and in effect England and Wales break away) – this is highly unlikely to happen.

      Ian and anyone else who can chip in, there is something in this paragraph that I don’t quite understand and this is in no way a dig at Ian, rather I am looking for clarification and understanding. I have read this “reverse Greenland” phrase mentioned a few times but don’t really understand what it means, nor can I find a real definition as opposed to a soundbite.

      My question is this, if Wales and England eventually Brexit and Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar remain in the EU and also part of the UK, then are Wales and England not just doing a “Greenland”. Where does the “reverse” part come in to the equation?

    45. ScottishPsyche says:

      The archived link for the mirror article is below to save fleetstreetfox getting any more clicks than her tawdry piece deserves.

      http://archive.is/zi9sY

    46. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T
      @James Barr Gardner
      @ Ken500

      Marie Elizebeth Rimmer court case continues on the 29th August at Glasgow Sheriff Court.

      Other news from Court today Sean Clerkin infamous of Scottish Resistance, no laughing from the cheap seats.

      Mitch Kilbride
      45 mins · Glasgow

      POLICE “EXTINGUISHED” THE FLAMING PIPER

      Outside Glasgow Sheriff Court the Flaming Piper from Maryhill was told to stop playing FLOWER OF SCOTLAND as the noise was being heard in the building
      Inside the drama continued with Sean Clerkin and Piers Doughty-Brown, both aged 56.
      Clerkin faces two breaches of the peace and Doughty-Brown one alleged charge.
      Callum Munro 34, A Scottish Organiser for the Labour Party at an event in Glasgow in the Concert Hall on April 1,2015.told how he used “reasonable force” to restrain Clerkin from entering a private event featuring Ed Balls the former Shadow Chancellor.
      Earlier John Flanagan,solicitor representing Clerkin tried to prevent the case coming before Sheriff Tony Kelly, on the grounds that his brother, James Kelly, Labour MSP for Rutherglen, “would not be impartial claiming conflict of interest.”
      The procurator fiscal with Brown’s solicitor did not support the motion and it was refused.
      In evidence Mr Munro identified the accused Clerkin sitting in the dock and said:”Clerkin was not an invited guest trying to create maximum disruption and was shouting RED TORY SCUM.”
      The court was then shown a 40 minute YouTube video filmed at the time.
      At the end of today’s evidence Clerkin was arrested outside Court 17 in the corridor and taken to the cells.
      His solicitor said:”He is being charged under Section 38 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act and will appear from custody at 2pm tomorrow in Court 4.”
      Both accused are pro bono and the Flaming Piper told us Clerkin paid him his £25 fee.

      Case continues 8th 9th Sept court 17.

    47. Stoker says:

      The difference between Ruth and Nicola:
      http://archive.is/d7qHE

    48. galamcennalath says:

      Dan Huil says:

      “Davidson will have to lead the No campaign. Can only be good for Yes.”

      She will make a good job for rallying the diehard block of BritNats. But what are they, max … 30odd% ?

      Then Davidson and her BT2 have to persuade most of the rest of 2014 NOs to stick with them. But how?

      Fear? A combination of heard it all before plus the reality that the Union and Brexit are genuinely scary is going to make that far less effective.

      Then BT2 are going to be continually challenged on all the broken promises. That will erode support further and make it very difficult to offer new promises with any credibility.

      Again, BT2 will have no grass roots. Less even than last time. So very few boots on the streets.

      They will have exclusive support from the media, of course. Here again, belief in their word has weakened.

      All sounds good. However the weakness of YES is getting our support out. Most of 2014 YES voters need to repeat their choice, new voters who need kicked off the sofa to perhaps vote for the first time, and of course some previous NO who are now converts. It will take hard work on the ground.

      I plan to take nothing for granted and work my butt off!

    49. HandandShrimp says:

      Luigi

      I don’t know which way all of Labour will jump on anything any more. I think some might well lean to independence now.

      Kezia will go down with the Union. She has nailed those colours to her mast. Others in her party might let her go down with her ship.

    50. Valerie says:

      Ok, if you weren’t scared by May before now….

      Rev posted link to Hoots Mon article. May is having pictures removed from the walls of No 10. Why?

      To put up quotes from her speeches.

      Brexit means Brexit.

    51. galamcennalath says:

      Polscot says:

      “Where does the “reverse” part come in to the equation?”

      My interpretation is that in the Denmark / Greenland scenario the wee group of people left, and the big block of people stayed in the EU.

      The ‘reverse’ is that the wee bit stays (ie us) and the big bit (ie rUK) leaves.

    52. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T

      Indycamp verdict Court of Sessions Edinburgh Lord Turnbulls written decision will be available at 12 noon tomorrow.

    53. galamcennalath says:

      HandandShrimp says:

      “Kezia will go down with the Union. … Others in her party might let her go down with her ship.”

      I think that is how it will play out. They will split over it this time.

      And, what about the LibDems? Rumour has it that a significant faction want to put the EU before the UK Union. I think their chances of shifting to Yes are certainly higher than Lab’s. But we’ll see.

    54. Roboscot says:

      Rather than splitting, I suspect Scotlab and Scotlibdems will allow individual members to campaign as they wish and maybe avoid an official campaign/position.

    55. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath – HandandShrimp

      Kezia has flipped so many times on so many issues who would possibly believe any last minute conversion anyway?

      Kezia Dugdale has made her bed for better or worse and doomed Labour in Scotland because of it. Labour does have a chance to regain relevance in Scotland, but it would require a significant gesture on their part. An statement of intent as it were and that opportunity may present itself in the not too distant future.

      They’ll have to answer a question or two. Are they Scottish Labour or UK Labour in Scotland? Do they support with their vote any future referendum bill put forward in Holyrood, or not? Do they honour the claim of right, or ignore it in favour of the UK state?

      Their choice and possibly their last chance.

    56. arthur thomson says:

      A hard core of Slab has, throughout my lifetime, been working class closet Tories. The pursed lip, sanctimonious, tut-tutting, curtain twitching variety. Thatcher loving Ruthie is their kind of woman – in their eyes a no nonsense, phony accented, accusing, bigoted, xenophobic, tunnel visioned, suffocator of dreams. They are motivated by fear and long since gave up on any notion of hope.

      But we in the indy movement have come so far, to a point where I believe that, at the very least, half of the Scottish population now see a better way and believe that it can actually be realised.

      I still have hopes that at least half of those who have stuck with Slab are going to find a move to the Tories to be a step too far. When at last it becomes obvious, even to them, that the Labour Party is no longer a functioning political organisation, I anticipate that they will see that their desire and efforts to promote the wellbeing of the disadvantaged can best be achieved through the indy movement.

      I wish they would hurry up.

    57. Polscot says:

      galamcennalath says:

      My interpretation is that in the Denmark / Greenland scenario the wee group of people left, and the big block of people stayed in the EU.

      The ‘reverse’ is that the wee bit stays (ie us) and the big bit (ie rUK) leaves.

      I get what you are saying. So does that mean that Wales and England are doing a “reverse Denmark”? If so, why don’t we just go for the more obvious definitions that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar are doing a “Denmark”, whilst Wales and England are doing a “Greenland”? Why overcomplicate the phrasing, eliminate the negative, accentuate the positive? In this case, the “big group” are doing the walking away, whilst the “wee group” soldier on.

      Anyhow, it’s not worth pursuing as Scotland will be able to do a “Denmark” when we get independence anyway, as we watch the Brexiteers go their own away.

    58. Ken500 says:

      Yet 50% of voters voted SNP. 20% voted Tory. 20% voted Labour. ?% didn’t understand the electoral system and cancelled out their vote. 1 and 2. They won’t the next time once word gets around.

      Did Labour voters understand the questions?

    59. r.esquierdo says:

      Are the stane dykes as strong?

    60. Ian Murray says:

      Labour will go down with the Union for a change

    61. Provost Sludden says:

      So, who are the Tartan Tories now Baron Foulkes?

    62. galamcennalath says:

      @Polscot

      What it shows is who and where the phrase ‘reverse Greenland’ came from … either Unionists or from England. It is clearly a London centric way of looking at the situation. Arse for elbow, as usual where Scotland is concerned!

      If Scots had coined the phrase it would probably have been something like ‘England doing a Greenland’. Scotland isn’t doing anything. We are just remaining like Denmark, in this scenario.

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s an interesting statistic which can maybe be used against the unionist cereal statistic abusers. Kevin Hague would love it and draw a graph with his 164 pencils.

      More than 63% more people voted Remain than Leave in Scotland, whereas less than 24% more people voted NO than YES to Independence.

      To coin a “Gallagherism” (deliberate exaggeration of statistics to make a biased case look more authentic, named after Jim Gallagher, Better Together adviser), that’s 3 times as many more people voted Remain than voted NO.

      Then stand back and watch an extreme Unionist implode. Not a pretty sight.

    64. Luigi says:

      With regard to Scotland staying in the UK and the EU, where there is a will there is a way. With political will anything is possible.

      But there lies the problem: Political goodwill from WM? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Scotland getting a good deal from WM? Fat chance. Plenty of goodwill from the EU, but WM will spit the dummy out I’m afraid. There is no way they will cooperate.

      “You Jocks are either wi us or again us”

      These are the creeps that said we couldn’t use the pound, remember.

    65. Wulls says:

      I am actually underwhelmed at these figures.
      They only serve to underline the pathological hatred ScotLab has for the SNP.
      Bottom line is instead of accepting responsibility for their disintegration themselves they choose to blame another mid/left party. This is incomprehensible to neutral observers never mind nationalists.
      To admit Nik is doing well as a leader is to admit their own failures.
      Won’t happen. Instead they will sacrifice every remaining socialist principle and back the Tories surreptitiously.
      The ramifications are mind boggling.

    66. David Robertson says:

      I’m detecting a degree of bigotry tonight and I’m not happy. My father and tree uncles were Orange men. Three nicer men you could not wish to meet. Two were also in the masonic order. and they did a lot for the poor as I can testify. So shut the fuck up.

    67. Effijy says:

      Where these Labour voters wearing white jackets with sleeves that fastened at the back?

      The majority of Labour officials who hold office in the party are Tories.
      They are self serving individuals who hope to fill their own pockets, and considered it an easier ride in the talentless New Labour Party, rather than where their heart is,in the real Tory Party.

      Labour MPs are unwilling to accept any decision made by their Card carrying members, who like the Scots, are just supposed to do as they are told.

      IMO the will be no Scottish Labour Party breakaway from Westminster. They don’t have a Leader of any quality, no talent pool to select from, and no idea about policy or budgets. They only have remote controlled puppets in Scotland.

      Wee Fat Boab can play the Britnats like a flute OK.
      As soon as she announces that she has just got a King Billy Tattoo on her chest, she can capture 30% of the votes.

      If she shows it in public, 3%.

    68. yesindyref2 says:

      @David Robertson
      I did a word search on the whole page, and the only occurrence of “orange” is in your posting.

    69. Camz says:

      So basically SLAB voters want Ruth to lead them…dear God!

    70. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2

      Try the comment at 5.46.

    71. David Robertson says:

      @yesindyref2
      The post has been removed.

    72. Valerie says:

      I was just about to say, it’s mental out there tonight, then I read David Robertson at 10.51.

      Really selling yourself there, David.

      Pity your uncle’s niceness didn’t rub off on you.

    73. Chang Sha says:

      @David Robertson
      Was it an orange tree?

    74. David Robertson says:

      @yesindyref2
      it’s at 5.46:
      Sorry I missed it, it is still there.

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      @David Robertson
      Fair enough. I see it in the Herald too though below the line. Pretty daft – and divisive. Every section of society has its extremists and nutcases. The cause / team / whatever doesn’t matter to them, it’s just an excuse.

    76. David Robertson says:

      @Valerie
      I’ve supported the fight for Scottish independence for more than 40 years. I will continue to do so, I have done so without the need for personal attacks. As to my “niceness” well 🙂

    77. Effijy says:

      The petition protesting against Blatant BBC Bias has now reached 89,716 signatures.

      There is a link below for any infrequent visitors to the site or for those like minded people that you haven’t sent it to yet!

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    78. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Can some one help me out as ma heeds beginning to nip.
      Independent Scotland. Lab and Con. Do they still take orders from London. Or do they have to split from England and be independent party’s.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      Just saw your last comment, the posting you and crazycat pointout had “I’m pretty sure that there is a strong presence of hard line Unionists within Labour ranks, and by that I mean O/o and masonic”,

      Shrug, I guess, yeah, maybe, depends, no idea!

    80. K1 says:

      1 post ‘could’ denote a ‘degree’ David, but it’s hardly representative of the entire thread so far and it’s definitely not widespread ‘bigotry’?

      Would you say the general gist of that post was ‘bigotry’ or ‘observational’? Is it fair to state that many people who are part of the Orange order are ‘Unionist’ in outlook?

      Cause I think that’s all the poster was stating.

      The post under that post mentions the term ‘NO SURRENDER Mentality’ and suggests the Unionist ‘key vote demography’ is ‘OAP’s’. D’ye want to tell them to shut the fuck up too…cause you have parents of a certain age who happened to be kind to the poor?

    81. mike cassidy says:

      Fionan 8.40

      Thanks for that.

      The poll means nothing if they are sifting.

      Basically turns it into a UKaye Adams phonein!

      And here’s an interesting view of Raging Ruth and her Merrie Men.

      She even puzzles her own!

      http://archive.is/U233k

    82. shug says:

      That recent video about the no campaign was clear the core yes vote was always 30% the core no vote was 40%. Their campaign always considered the 40% secure. I think the SNP currently has the 30% plus most of the undecided

      The SNP needs to think about breaking down that 40% core no vote
      What makes these no voters be no voters

      We need to be clear about their key issues and identify why Westminster is a risk to their issue in order to get them to move.

      e.g

      Service personnel strong unionist unless they think about – disbandment of the Scottish regiments, service men abandoned and on the street because of Westminster

      even an Orange man = strong unionist but not if Westminster attack what he sees and GB culture (OK this is a hard one)

      Finding points to provide to no voters to soften their position is crucial

    83. David Robertson says:

      @Chang Sha
      When a typo is your only attack 🙂

    84. tartanpigsy says:

      4 days left, it’s almost there folks, a great start for Indy2

      Hats off to Rogue Coder 🙂

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/10-000-more-flags-for-yes#/

      … and when will a pollster ask THE question we all want to know the answer to?

    85. mike cassidy says:

      FYI

      The 5.46 post

      Bob Mack says:

      26 July, 2016 at 5:46 pm

      Could this be the strong polarisation effect of being seen as the Union protector ?

      I’m pretty sure that there is a strong presence of hard line Unionists within Labour ranks, and by that I mean O/o and masonic. I have seen this within Labour council authorities where special dispensations are given to certain sections without regard to the wishes of the majority

    86. Bob Mack says:

      @Yesindyref2, @David Robertson,

      I do have an idea. I have more than an idea,and I withdraw absolutely nothing. You don’t like it Dave then too bad. I was brought up in that environment and I know exactly what happens whether they are nice and work for charity or not.

    87. David Robertson says:

      @K1
      I was speaking not just of today but over a considerable period on here, though today on the eve my fathers death brought it into focus. If our fight for independence is to succeed we will need encompass/persuade those who are of a different mind-set, not alienate them.

      On a personal note, both my parents are dead, as are my three uncles. I could go into what they contributed/sacrificed both physically and mentally for the UK as is was then, which was a lot, believe me; but not at this juncture.

      I defend them not just because they are family , but because they were good people.

    88. Vambomarbeleye says:

      The oo is nothing to do with the masons. In lodge you are forbidden to discuss two things. Religion and politics. There are Catholics who are masons and there are pro independence masons. How ever you would never ask a brother directly ether of the aforementioned questions. You can though in conversation pick up which way a persons political locality’s fall. They are definetly not all unionists. Far from it.
      Scottish grand lodge is totally independent from England. The English Grand Lodge is tied up with Royalty. The Scottish Grand Lodge not. In Scotland the English masons are referred to as knife and fork masons as they are more interested in the dinning than any thing else.

    89. Bob Mack says:

      Re my post on the O/o.
      My grandfather and my father were both members of the Order. My father just a youth ,but my grandfather a member of the Black Chapter. I know what they do, and I also know they take an oath to preserve the Union ,Britishness, and Royalty whilst promoting their religion. Do not even presume to tell me what they do or how they feel about an indy Scotland.
      Criticism of this is NOT bigotry,but rather an acknowledgement of a reality in our society,
      So you pull you neck in Mr Robertson,because clearly you do not have a bloody clue.

    90. David Robertson says:

      @Bob Mack

      “Criticism of this is NOT bigotry” In my opinion it was in this case, as in the way it was thinly disguised/veiled as criticism. But it was in fact bigotry.

    91. K1 says:

      David that’s not what you said in your post: you stated ‘tonight’ so you were referring to that one post. To now bring in other cases with no evidence but your ‘opinion’ to back up your outburst isn’t really admissible as a means of justifying your outburst.

      You say:

      ‘If our fight for independence is to succeed we will need encompass/persuade those who are of a different mind-set, not alienate them’

      Who on this thread, which is the one you stated ‘bigotry’ was being displayed, has ‘alienated’ these people who need persuaded to the cause of independence. Bob’s post was not bigotry David, he merely opined: ‘…that there is a strong presence of hard line Unionists within Labour ranks, and by that I mean O/o and masonic.’

      How is that in any way ‘alienating’.

      I would venture that a big part of the problem with all the ‘various’ demograph’s re the No vote, has been ‘their’ reluctance to listen to any of the arguments from our side David, and they do a damn fine job of shutting all dialogue down in this regard. Notwithstanding we do know, now, that many from the No side are on the brink of changing their mind’s, in large part due to ‘events’ rather than any persuasion on the part of those who support independence.

      I don’t agree with the premise that it is our side who have created alienation Dave, that’s a Unionist narrative.

      Your ‘personal’ life has got nothing to do with the point I made Dave. We have all suffered loss and all of us will.

      I’m not at all sure why you feel the need to ‘defend’ your parents. No one ‘attacked’ ‘your’ parents.

      I was questioning your ‘offended’ feeling and utilising the post after Bob’s to make the point that one can choose be ‘offended’ about anything. Sorry if you did not get that point…

    92. mike cassidy says:

      Rev –

      You should have called this thread

      The Darling Buddies Of May

    93. Bob Mack says:

      @David Robertson,

      Says you. You sound as if you have your own issues on that score. My family are both Catholic and protestant. Can you suggest which side I should hate therefore?
      You cannot be admired of an organisation sworn to destroy everything we on Wings stand for. Personally I hate everything they stand for,and I would soon raise a glass if they were gone tomorrow.
      No love lost on my part.

    94. K1 says:

      Mike,

      The Darling Fuds Of May 😉

    95. call me dave says:

      Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale said:
      “The consequences of the UK voting to leave the EU will be felt for years to come and the only thing we know for sure is that we don’t know very much about what the future holds.

      “Labour stands with the majority of Scots who want to be part of the UK and the EU – we won’t give up pursuing those options, but protecting jobs and public services must come first.”

      http://archive.is/ZiLCH

    96. Bob Mack says:

      Sorry Wingers for being blunt,but if you remember the scenes of the evening after the referendum in George Sq when the Unionist celebration was ongoing. If you took identikit pictures around the Lodges in the East of Glasgow you would find most of them there. I personally know of several lodge members who were at that debacle.

      I cannot tell you how I know ,but I do. That is what David wants us to try and change.
      Their utter contempt, hatred and loathing into something akin to brotherly love.

      A member of my family who is still involved in the Order is thinking of leaving because of Lodge recruitment policy. At one time you had to have a live Church commitment. Now ,you only have to have the desire to be committed to the Union and preserve the UK. That is your oath. Think it is flexible? DOES IT SOUND AS IF THEY WELCOME INDEPENDENCE ? Not in my book.

    97. Onwards says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36897565

      Christ all mighty.
      Scottish Labour has published its own list of Brexit demands.
      Near the top of the list is this one:

      “Using Holyrood’s tax powers to increase income tax by a penny, alongside introducing a 50p top rate of income tax to raise funds to protect public services and invest in education;”

      So they have basically given up on the EU, and want higher income tax rates in Scotland to compensate. The same plan which went down like a lead balloon at this years Holyrood election.

      Instead of Scotland having an ‘extraordinary opportunity’ to attract jobs and investment according to Nicholas MacPherson, she is happy for Scotland to have a competitive disadvantage with England.. both outside the EU.

      No wonder Kezia is increasingly seen as a dud.

    98. Michael McCabe says:

      Looking forward to the day Scotland leaves this Union with the UK. Maybe the Purring Queen can bail out England with her Maundy Money.

    99. geeo says:

      If someone could stop the thread destroying clowns, that would be nice.

      Who the hell comes on here to hear about dead people who were OO members, nice or not ?
      ….
      Im with the person (cannot recall who, apologies) who was wondering when a poll asking the apparently un-mentionable question was going to be commissioned, especially in light of brexit vote and the talk since about Scotland being dragged out despite 62% voting Remain.

      I would like to see what Remain voting unionists would reply to the question, “In the event of an indy ref2, knowing article 50 had been invoked, would you vote for independence or stay within the uk but outside the EU ?

      OR/and

      “If the EU said Scotland were assured to remain in the EU if independent, would it make you more or less likely to vote for independence ?

    100. Gerry says:

      SLAB’s new post brexit plan.
      https://issuu.com/lol0471/docs/brexit_action_plan
      Very first text page says…..
      “We hope that the SNP government in Holyrood AND THE TORY GOVERNMENT IN EDINBURGH will take on board our suggestions and work with us in the national interest” (my emphasis)
      Deary me.

    101. The Record and Herald plod on regardless.
      On today’s Record online, Dugdale has ‘crossed the pond’ to speak at the Democratic Convention representing the Labour Party?
      Not so. oh unattributed Record Labour SApin Doctor.
      Kezia is already in the US on a US State sponsored 4 week ‘Leaders” Course, to be indoctrinated into the ways of New Labour Tony Blair neo conservatism.
      While the UK prepares to shut up shop and become England’s Green and Pleasant Land once more, and her Party is about to commit Jonesburgh mass suicide, Dugdale effed off on a wee summer jolly, leaving Rowley and Baillie, from their holiday homes and but’n’bens to feed our compliant Unionist foreign owned Dead Tree Scrolls and the State Propaganda Wing, the BBC, nonsense about Federalism, the much repeated lie that 64% of our trade is with England, and guff about 50% tax rates.
      There is nobody minding the Unionist store during the summer hols; hence the DR’s blatant attempt to imply otherwise.
      I see the Herald has a photo of NS above an article establishing that since the crash UK wages have now reached the level of Greece’s, rock bottom.
      It’s the SNP’s fault, is it Magnus?
      One by one the Better Together threats and menace of an avenging malevolent England post Independence crumble and fall to the cold dead Unionist earth despite the Establishment foreign owned MSM’s failing attempts to keep the lies flowing.
      Kezia Dugdale is a sad joke. The Branch Office Up Here is dead. It’s time somebody gave the corpse a decent burial.
      Ruth and her wee gang of Ultras seem Bulletproof in being held to account for the Blue Tories’ savage attacks on the wage slaves, and pandering to the filthy rich and UKIPpers.

    102. Effijy says:

      The First Minister’s Anti-Trident Petition seems to have lost momentum?

      She was looking for 100,000 signatures to halt weapons of mas destruction from being stored on your doorstep, and from vast sums of money being wasted in times of Austerity where
      our NHS is struggling, thousands of homes depend on Food Banks, and we require investment in Jobs and Education.

      From a population of 5.5 million, and an SNP membership of
      120,000, the petition has less than 22,500 signatures.

      This response would reflect that a majority are pro Trident, or Ant-First Minister, or Anti-Independence.

      Really, Why have we not been able to gather 100,000 signatures?

      http://www.snp.org/scraptrident?mc_cid=7822341808&mc_eid=2ca6f3edb9

    103. frogesque says:

      @ Effigy 7.02:

      Signed!

    104. Smallaxe says:

      @Vambomarbeleye,12.08 am.

      You are quite correct masonic law forbids discussion on politics or religion it also forbids a brother taking up with
      another brother’s wife.

      There are Catholics in many Scottish lodges,there is also lodge shalom (Jewish) and lodge dramatic (actors) there are
      many business men and working class amongst them who definitely won’t cut off their noses to spite their face.

      A great many Freemasons are with us and will vote accordingly,
      I used to be a caterer in Glasgow and have spoken to many of these people and from what I gather most are sickened by being
      unfairly lumped in with the O/O.Peace

    105. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Semi-retired and now in my seventh decade, I still contribute the odd (very) specialist items to the Herald. It is, as most regular contributors to these threads have noted, a pale shadow of the paper it once was.

      (A wee aside here. When I was “on the tools” full-time, I used to find myself rostered to cover the same football matches as a Herald sub-editor, who doubled as a Saturday match reporter. I hadn’t seen Hughie for a wee while, so one day I called their Sports Desk to speak with him.

      I was at that time negotiating an early retirement package, so I asked Hughie if he was thinking of bailing-out of what I knew, even then, was a troubled editorial floor.

      “Aye, but, there are still enough of us in here who care about the paper, I’m one of these and it would be wrong to leave now.”

      He did, however, take a package and go, and today, I do not believe there are enough people left on the editorial floor at the top of Renfield Street, who care about their paper and how it is perceived.

      forgive this long preamble, but, I have noticed, of late, the Herald website is running an awful lot of links to extreme Britnat propaganda, from the likes of the Express, which is crudely and blatantly anti-SNP and anti-Independence.

      This is shallow, craven (non) journalism, which does nothing for the good name the Herald once had.

      As a young journalist I was always taught – you did not lift or follow-up on another paper’s stories, unless you could add something, or take the story on.

      This is a lesson somebody senior at the Herald needs to learn – quickly, before the paper’s long 200-years-plus story becomes history.

      In the independent Scotland that is coming, we will need quality papers to hold our government to account. These must be SCOTTISH papers, since “kilted” editions of English-based papers will not do this job.

    106. Robert Peffers says:

      @David Robertson says: 26 July, 2016 at 10:51 pm:

      “I’m detecting a degree of bigotry tonight and I’m not happy.”.

      Nah! You’re only “perceiving” a degree of bigotry, David, and your happiness is not of prime importance to the majority of commenters on WoS.

      Let me put it this way for you – any organisation that has as its raison d’être the aim of suppressing another sect of Christianity has no valid right to complain of bigotry.

      ” … My father and tree uncles were Orange men. Three nicer men you could not wish to meet. Two were also in the masonic order. and they did a lot for the poor as I can testify”.

      Tell me, David, are you acquaint with the Scottish expression, “Gin ye flee wi the craws ye micht weel bi shot iz a craw”?

      “So shut the fuck up.”

      You were doing fairly well until that point, David. Then you reverted to type.

      BTW: you do not come to a blog like WoS and demand that the commenters must not express their firmly held views in such a overbearing and peremptory manner as you have adopted.

    107. Grouse Beater says:

      For all lying unionists readers who warned Scotland would become another Greece without the UK please be advised:

      Britain has suffered a bigger fall in real wages since the financial crisis than any other advanced country apart from Greece.

      Using data from the OECD’s recent employment outlook, the TUC found that over the same 2007-2015 period, real wages grew in Poland by 23%, in Germany by 14%, and in France by 11%. Across the OECD, real wages increased by an average of 6.7%.

      The UK, Greece and Portugal were the only three OECD countries that saw real wages fall.

    108. sinky says:

      Again shows power of BBC and tabloids in forming attitudes as there was universal canonisation of Mother Theresa
      On BBCs latest health investigation has anyone comparison of the number of FOIs BbC submitted to Holyrood during 1999 to 2007 and May 2007 to 2016

    109. Grouse Beater says:

      A new society needs new thinking: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7ne

    110. Smallaxe says:

      I think some people on here forget that Robert Burns was a Freemason!

    111. Breeks says:

      @ Effijy

      Petitions won’t even swing a Planning Application in this country, and even “Government” petitions are a similar type of placebo to “official regulators”.

      They exist to maintain the illusion that somebody cares about your grievance, so your angst is diffused, and you let the matter drop in the misguided belief your protest has at least been registered.

      There hasn’t been a petition written which cannot be scrunched into a ball and fired into a waste paper bin from the other side of the room.

      I rather suspect if you visited Pacific Quay, you might find they have the loft lagged with papier-mâché made from recycled petitions and complaints.

      There were what,? 3 or was it 4 million signed a petition for re-Brexit, and even that slam dunked the waste paper bin.

    112. Bill says:

      Bring it on #BetterTogether2

      Ruth Davidson will lead Scottish Labour voters into voting Naw Thanks!

      Let’s see how low they can go?

    113. Hardly, Smallaxe.
      January 25th Burn’s Night is celebrated by every lodge, after all.
      I tire of this ‘Masons’ nonsense.
      I have never been a ‘joiner’, be it cubs, scouts, BB’s, Masons, KSC, or the OO.
      I left organised religion in my teens.
      I seem to recall a Census figure that over 50% of Scots citizens now class themselves as belonging to no organised religion at all.
      I find it frightening that Established Religions, and indeed ‘Establishment’ Organisations like those mentioned above are not more ‘politically’ active in this world of Foodbanks, child poverty, slave wages, zero hours drudgery, crippling debt in the form of Money Lender Pay Day loans, WMD madness, and so on.
      MY perception of all these clubs, secret societies, and religious bodies is that they have adopted a Pontius Pilate ‘nothing to do with me , Gov.’ approach to the very real and society threatening attacks by neo liberal imperialist bellicose Red Blue and Jaundiced WM Tories on the residents of Scotland.
      Boasts of the great charity work these organisations do cuts no ice with me.
      I look forward to the day when every charity organisation , and their extremely well paid chief executives, close their doors forever through lack of business in a Scotland where the Parliament is of the people, voted for by the people, and accountable to the people, and not the plaything of a Rich and Privileged Establishment Elite, either in London, or Edinburgh.
      Scotland as a Self Determining independent stae within the EU. That’s the aim of this not so secret society of One.

    114. Smallaxe says:

      @ Effigy,

      I admire your dedication and understand fully your frustration
      but I think the time for petitions is over we need signatures
      at the ballot box now.I have signed many petitions in the past
      but now is the time for Independence so that we can go through
      the BBC at Pacific Quay with a fine tooth comb and remove the
      Lice that keep getting in our hair.Peace & Love to you my friend.

    115. Stoker says:

      David Robertson wrote: (@ 10:51 pm)
      “Two were also in the masonic order.”

      David, forgive me but i’m getting a slight waft of dung with your post, especially the part i’ve quoted above. Both my wife and i come from O/O and Freemason backgrounds. From high-ranking members of both organisations but in our 50-years on this planet we have never once heard the Mason’s referred to as “the masonic order.”

      Was that just a wee mistake on your part, similar to your “spelling mistake” with “tree?” Which, incidentally, had me thinking of a certain fleg brigade.

      Just a couple of observations, David, which made me curious. BTW, another possibly coincidental observation, you have the same name as a former Scottish footballer who, among others, played for a certain Glasgow football club which went into liquidation in 2012. Funny or what!
      🙂

    116. Smallaxe says:

      @ Jack Collatin,

      Unlike yourself I am a person who joins some organisations.I have been a member of the CND since 1968, I am also a member
      the SNP and am like yourself non religious being a member of the Scottish Humanist Society.Peace.

    117. Bill says:

      I hate petitions, they’re the equivalent of asking children to colour-in on a table away in a corner while the grown ups argue.

      The state loves them as it gives you something to do.

      Will you sign my petition to ban petitions?

      http://www.petitions/IdontGiveAToss/PleaseSign/indyref2TheOnlyWay.com

    118. JaceF says:

      That’s because at heart they are Tories, they may be red in colour but Tories all the same. Pretty soon they are going to have to just admit it and drop the lefty comfort blanket. They are going to have to get on the bus with the rest of Country or possibly get on a bus to the rest of another Country!

    119. Smallaxe says:

      @ Bill,

      🙂

    120. Glamaig says:

      This morning’s Radio Scotland phone in sounds like a non-story. NHS pays skilled medical professionals the going rate to treat patients, shock horror.

      If they didn’t, Radio Scotland phone-in: NHS waiting times grow. SNP Bad.

    121. Thanks for that, Smallaxe. I am virulently anti WMD and Pro Self Determination for Scotland.
      Yet my personal freedom as a non member of any organisation is important to me.
      Nicola Sturgeon does not walk on water, and, as the madness of individuals throughout the globe over the past few weeks/months/years testifies, the world is a parlous place, and we must confront extremism and intolerance constantly.
      I found Theresa May’s curt, ‘Yes’, to the enquiry, ‘would she authorise the killing of a hundred thousand innocent men women and children?’ astounding , evil, and alarming on so many levels.
      By not being a ‘joiner’ I reserve the right on occasion to criticise even the most well meaning of organisations; on occasion, as I say.
      Thanks for reading my thoughts. Good health to you and yours.

    122. ahundredthidiot says:

      interesting reading Rev and while pointing out slab voter views let’s not ignore just how effective the Tory/libdem coalition was (for us!) – their figures (libdems) are equally as telling.

      Talk about two parties who have lost their way.

      Phonies.

    123. heedtracker says:

      Its maybe their “blue collar” Conservative Ruth what wins it for SLab votes. Ruth’s not exactly ever worn a blue collar though, ex BBC ligger, Susan Calman types are surplus to requirements in Pacific Quay, 6 months list tory MSP before leader of the Scottish Conservatives, back to BBC Scotland as their blue collar tory pin up girl, piling in with same BBC Scotland sticking it to the vile seps, that fired her. Who’s says Scotland’s not a land of opportunity?

      FT.com

      Banks have already begun to take action to shift operations out of the UK, but most of their staff will have to wait several months to find out how many thousands of them will be asked to move to fledgling financial hotspots like Paris, Dublin and Frankfurt.
      Investment banks, who donated heavily to the Remain campaign, have reacted immediately to Britain’s referendum result, with some of London’s largest institutions approaching regulators to secure licences and lining up executives to relocate.

      The big US banks — JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citigroup and Morgan Stanley — have large operations employing tens of thousands of people in the UK. They have historically set up their regulated businesses in Britain and then used its right to “passport” into the rest of the 28-member bloc

    124. Stoker says:

      Bill wrote (@ 9:11 am)
      “I hate petitions, they’re the equivalent of asking children to colour-in on a table away in a corner while the grown ups argue. The state loves them as it gives you something to do.
      Will you sign my petition to ban petitions?”

      http://www.petitions/IdontGiveAToss/PleaseSign/indyref2TheOnlyWay.com

      Bill, that’s hilarious, thanks for the good old belly laugh. Tried clicking on your link but at this moment in time i can’t get into it. It just keeps coming up as “This site can’t be reached.” I hope it’s not a commercial sites petition. LMAO 🙂

    125. mr thms says:

      #Glamaig @ 9:20 am

      “If they didn’t, Radio Scotland phone-in: NHS waiting times grow. SNP Bad.”

      The BBC in Scotland has stopped reporting the figures.

      Yesterday’s statistics show 94.7% of patients were seen within 4 hours.

      The Scottish Government target is 95%

      http://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Emergency-Care/Publications/data-tables.asp?id=1701#1701

    126. heedtracker says:

      Its ok though, BBC says Brexit’s just an excuse. Did we really lose Scotland to these twits but then they’ve not even started their next episode of BBC productions present Project Fear 2. ISIS are going to get you Scotland, oh yes, only a strong pair of thighs wrapped round a tank barrel, a British tank will save you, sort of stuff

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36897179

      Digby Jones says the big drop in the value of the pound should be taken with a pinch of salt.
      “It wasn’t a signpost to the British economy at all. It was a signpost of an immediate reaction to a decision.”
      He wants to focus on real economic data: “What’s it going to do to the European economy, including us?
      “It’s not in the interests of 520 million people to indulge in the ‘Great Remain Sulk’,” he says.

    127. Betty Boop says:

      O/T

      Well done, that wummin, who phoned Kay wi’ an e this morning (although it was actually Stephen Jardine) and told him she was fed up with the BBC (Scotland)constantly running NHS bad stories, saying she thought they must have an agenda and that if it was good enough to examine everything spent on NHS staff, it should be the same for the BBC (I paraphrase).

      At least, he let her have her say without jumping in, even when she paused. K would be right in there before she stopped for breath!

    128. louis.b.argyll says:

      Weird? You say.. Rev C ..

      It’s a surrealists paradise.

      Nobody can put their finger,
      exactly, where truth and reality meet.

      Nobody can use the old laws to explain the here and now.

      We Scots, are lucky, we have been beggering belief for generations.
      Nationally flummoxed on masse, inheriting the right only to rant.

      THE SCOTS WHO HAVE LIVED THROUGHOUT THE MODERN ERA ‘REGULARLY’ LIVE IN SHOCK AT BEING ‘LED’ BY HO-HOPERS.

      The (previously faux – but now palpable) outcry from moderate Americans and progressive Europeans that ‘leadership’ is being a corruptable, polarising force, is too late.

      Welcome to the middle ages REST OF THE WORLD.

      We’ve never left (constitutionally)
      And some nations, still, are being sent back there by ‘accident’ of our war industries.

      The Scottish People’s power of resisting recent oppression has been an inner strength, exactly how it should be, post history.

      Lash out with better ideas, with peace, even and the enemy’s confidence dissolves.

      They they have one last predictable hurrah. We are left, standing tall,sitting pretty with clean hands and renewed hope.

    129. louis.b.argyll says:

      Betty Boop ..

      Glad your listening (to call Kaye)
      So we don’t have to.

    130. Stoker says:

      A cracking quote from the article linked below:
      http://archive.is/CKZqr

      “Don’t give Britain the possibility of thinking that Brexit is a better way of doing what they have always done, grabbing what suits them (in the EU) and opting out of what they don’t like.”

      You see, London, everyone is onto you, not just Scotland!

    131. Marko says:

      There is a lot to be said about interpretation here. I think that, objectively, Ruth Davidson is doing very well as leader of the Scottish conservatives, she appears to be a very competent politician although I disagree fundamentally with most of her policies. By contrast, I think Kez is doing a fairly dire job of leading Scottish Labour; do I disagree fundamentally with what Kez or Labour stand for? Who knows, I have know idea what it is they stand for which is probably symptomatic of why I think she is not a great leader.

      I also think the question of doing “well or badly as First Minister” is fundamentally different to the question of doing “well or badly as leader…” I think non SNP voters might be more inclined to answer favourably to the question of whether Nic is a good party leader than to the question of her being a good First Minister.

    132. heedtracker says:

      Adam gets those Project Fear juices going again, Groundhog Referendum Scotland, Slovenia style. Once Jezerina? gets going on Btl Herald, we’ll know we’re our referendum’s really got going.

      UK joins Greece at bottom of wage growth league

      27 Jul 2016 06:23
      0 Recommend In response to Ringwodian

      iScotland would be hit with years of economic sinking due to limbo.

      It would take many YEARS for Scotland to establish an independent statehood and sort out its relationships with the WTO, the rUK, the EU etc.

      And what do you think that the borrowing rates of iScotland would be when its large deficit together with its share of the large UK’s debt and the limbo status with the rest of the world are revealed to the financial markets?

      Oh, and iScotland would also have to launch its own currency. Now with the above background, this surely would be a very bumpy ride.

      The financial sharks would just tear iScotland apart.

      On the other hand, Ireland was already a functioning independent state with all the trade deals etc. in place when it was hit with a crisis.

    133. Effijy says:

      I tried to get back on to the UKAYE OK
      Show this miorning as I also wanted to
      Ask if BBC England have made the same
      Number of enquiri s about NHS England’
      Overtime costs.

      I’d bet my llife that the BBC are purely
      Focuses in trying find dirt on NHS Scotland
      and come up with as much scaremongering
      SNP stories as they can.

      If only we were allowed to ask the BBC
      Under freedom of information act, do you
      Apply for the same stats from all quarters
      Of the NHS in the UK.

    134. Smallaxe says:

      @ Jack Collatin,

      Jack,thank you for your reply.I too do not think that NS is the bee’s knees and how I vote after Indy could well be different but at the moment I think the SNP are our best bet to bring us to where all Wingers want to be,ie free from the yoke (or should that be joke) of WM.I respect your stand for personal freedom from organisations as I respect people’s right to their religion as long as it is a peaceful one.

      I live in Gretna and am a founding member of the SNP in this area so I think you and most people will understand why I think it is Fundy Mundelly important to vote the way I do for
      now. Peace & Love to you and yours my friend.

    135. Edward says:

      Effijy

      Just seen a bit of Victoria Live prog and it featured consultant overtime in NHS England
      Even on the BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36898881

      Amazingly BBC Scotland do not state that there is an even bigger problem in England, in fact no mention of NHS England for comparison

    136. Bill says:

      Breaking News:

      I stand corrected, petitions do work. In 1927 the village of Thorncroft petitioned the Garden Fete committee to include a raffle at its next event. They gathered eleventy-seventeen signatures but a recount was demanded by the Labour candidate Tom Bola who protested that such a random selection of numbers would mean dire uncertainty for the village.

    137. Stoker says:

      Effijy wrote:
      “If only we were allowed to ask the BBC
      Under freedom of information act, do you
      Apply for the same stats from all quarters
      Of the NHS in the UK.”

      I don’t see anything wrong with that request. You’re not asking them for specific information such as where they get their stats from, are you? So, asking what you’ve written above, they can’t very well hide behind the usual get-out clauses, or can they?

      Why don’t you give it a go! In fact, you may find that someone on the ‘What Do They Know’ site may have already beaten you to it. They have a very extensive archive of FOI requests & responses. Have a look, what have you got to lose?
      https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/

    138. call me dave says:

      The NHS story is on the UK on BBC ‘Home’ page which relates to the UK as a whole.

      The SNHS part has been extracted especially for us sweaty socks in North Britain. Fear not!

      Can’t link, in cafe enjoying ‘The National x-word on my tablet. Too easy this morning 🙂

      Heard a bit of ‘Your call’ on car radio better than Kingdom radio which is music free and adverts only… 🙁
      Hobson’s choice.

    139. Stoker says:

      Bill (@ 10:31am)

      You’re on a roll now. Teary-eyed and still LMAO. 🙂
      Time to tend the garden. Neighbours are going to think i’ve lost it every time i think of your 2 posts. The boss is already giving me the ‘oh feck he’s off again’ look. Cheers, Bill. 🙂

    140. ROBBO says:

      As many have already said the results are on their own fairly meaningless but nonetheless I suspect they will be pounced upon by the media. If nothing it should be a wake up call for our party and our Indy aspirations. We need to redouble our efforts to get across the message which I must confess I have some frustrations about the way ‘bad’ news is countered by our SNP politicians. The BBC almost on a daily basis is exploiting this countered by a simple one line Scot Gov Minister statement at the end. The SNP must really step up to the plate and begin to put forward a more positive case if we are ever going to be free from this Union. Again we seem to be always on the back foot and need to be more savvy.

    141. Betty Boop says:

      @ Effijy

      You were terrific – pleased you didn’t have to put up with the K nasal tones this morning.

      @ louis.b.argyll

      Sorry, I only listened to another couple of contributions to the programme as I need to protect my sanity. I’m not that much of a heroine! 🙂

    142. galamcennalath says:

      From Nicola’s Twitter .. FT …..

      https://t.co/5sek24SCkI

      … Looks like Fox is an isolationist, as far as the EU goes. Sheer madness.

    143. Grouse Beater says:

      I have nothing but praise for Scotland’s NHS.

      The fly in the ointment, (so to speak) are doctors and their surgeries.

      Who gets a visit from their doctor these days?

      If you feel sick you stay in bed and hope the fever will subside in a day or so. You must make an appointment to see a doctor, a useless chore, consequently people rush off to the local hospital’s A&E for immediate treatment for wounds and worse accidents.

    144. ROBBO at 10.58

      You are missing the evidence which is included in your own post. It is not the SNP which decides what the BBC broadcasts or what the media prints.
      That is the problem and the media is now our only significant enemy.

    145. Grouse Beater says:

      Got an imbecile on my Twitter line claiming Scotland spends 10 billion a year more than “taxes it collects.”

    146. Macbeda says:

      @ galamcennalath 11:29am

      Just read the comments on that link.

      OMG they have not got a clue about what Brexit really means. All over the place.

    147. Roger Hyam says:

      I think Ruth Davidson is doing very well AS A TORY LEADER. That doesn’t mean I approve of her. I thoroughly disapprove of her policies. It is unfortunate that she is doing well but she is doing well at her job.

    148. Grouse Beater says:

      Robbo: “The BBC almost on a daily basis is exploiting this countered by a simple one line Scot Gov Minister statement at the end.”

      Next to setting up a specific internet site that counters the many daily lies and propaganda published and stated by the other side, the best riposte is to be in government, and govern well.

      Any site devoted to rejecting black propaganda and the like would also have to rebuff criticism of the cost of staffing and running the site from public taxes.

    149. Valerie says:

      For those not on Twatter

      James Dornan, MSP for Cathcart, comments on Labour’s demands for Brexit.

      It involves sticking pencils up your nose and saying wibble a lot.

      On a more serious note. Juncker has appointed a very serious player, Michel Barnier, as the EU Brexit negotiator. Some very serious journalists, FT, etc.saying this guy has a proper reputation as a tough guy. No discussions until A50 triggered.

      Seems Dr Fox may has misled us again, USA saying they will not be negotiating free trade deals until outcome of Brexit known.

      Yet, yesterday, No 10 were fan faring 3 offices opening in the USA to cope with the rush of companies wanting to do business with UK.

      Things just stepped up a gear.

    150. Valerie says:

      George Monbiot

      Fox will sell our sovereignty to the highest bidder

      http://archive.is/sRWYa

    151. heedtracker says:

      Roger Hyam says:
      27 July, 2016 at 12:08 pm
      I think Ruth Davidson is doing very well AS A TORY LEADER. That doesn’t mean I approve of her. I thoroughly disapprove of her policies. It is unfortunate that she is doing well but she is doing well at her job.

      So what is that she’s doing well at Roger? If she’s any good she’ll be the next First Minister of Scotland, and may God have mercy on us all.

      What’s the worst that Ruthie could actually do though, that we’ve not already had from being reined over by red and blue teamGB?

      Slave wage UKOK economics, food banks, endless horror wars, spivy and expensive BBC Scotland, giant debt that can never be paid off, well it seems that Ireland and Iceland can but that doesn’t count and so on.

      Imagine a world where a giant media Corp like the BBC actually did proper journalism, not endless sneaky creepy Tory Britnat propaganda, sigh.

    152. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit, I think most people who voted Leave are going to be dissappointed.

      For some, it won’t go far enough in pulling up draw bridges or turning the UK back to the 1950s.

      For many more, it will all go much further and impact on them more than they ever imagined!

      The WM politicians tasked with executing the (still to be made up) plan know this!

      I get the impression the factions within the Tories are manoeuvring and competing to lay out the plan. Fox being in the ‘hard Brexit’ group. The ‘moderates’ who never wanted Brexit all will wish a ‘soft’ solution, changing as little as possible.

    153. Vambomarbeleye says:

      First point. Masonic lodges do give a lot to various ethnic charities but it’s done quietly. It’s worth having a look at the number of Masonic lodges at the opening of the Wallace monument.
      Second point. BBC radio. R Scotland not fit for purpose. R4 apart from the. Shipping forcast it’s empire radio. Especially when it goes to the world service. Where do you find a radio service giving honest news.

    154. David says:

      Was this a YouGov online opinion poll? If it was it is important to note that only people with a very low level of extra ciricular activity could possibly find the time required to fill in all the answers. I signed up for YouGov but I had to give up after two or three responses when I realised how time consuming and boring most of their questions were.

    155. Smallaxe @10.29
      For decades during my working life I travelled the highways and byways of these Isles mostly by car.
      When coming home crossing the Border and the Gretna sign was enough for me (and sometimes fellow travellers) to announce ‘Home at last!’ with not a little relief and a sense of ‘arriving’, although I still had 90 odd miles to go, having lived most of my adult life in Glasgow. (I’m ‘Bankie born.)
      I think of your great town as my beacon on the long road home. More so today.
      Cheers, Jack

    156. Chic McGregor says:

      Valerie
      “Seems Dr Fox may has misled us again, USA saying they will not be negotiating free trade deals until outcome of Brexit known.

      Yet, yesterday, No 10 were fan faring 3 offices opening in the USA to cope with the rush of companies wanting to do business with UK. ”

      Not to mention, it seems, as far or as short as can be construed, that Trump is anti free trade.

      Re ‘Fundelly Mundelly’, I think he actually is a ‘fundamentalist’. The vulnerable, disabled and low paid workers provide the ‘funds’ and his party provides the ‘mental list’ – Bankers, Stockbrokers, Estate Agents, Trident, Weapons Manufacturers, BigCorps, the Rich and of course, Politicians of the ‘right’ type.

    157. Ken500 says:

      Doctor’s receive £20Million in due overtime payments out of a SNHS spend of £12Billion.

      Labour wants to tax Scotland more.

      Scottish taxpayers pay £1Billion a year for Trident/illegal wars. Another £3Billion for ‘Defence’ i.e. attacking vulnerable people and illegally taking their resources. Scottish taxpayers pay £4Billion on loan repayments Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend. £3Billion? Tax evaded. Whisky companies etc use Scottish resources and pay no tax. Scotland loses £4Billion+ a year and thousands of jobs because Westminster Unionists who Scotland doesn’t vote for tax the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price has fallen 25%. Scotland loses £13Billion+ a year to Westminster rule. Yet Labour wants to tax Scotland more.

      The Tory/Unionists are lying, useless, incompetent ‘psycho bastards’. Their own description.

      The Orange Lodge is a secretive, unequal and selective organisation. No public money should be spent funding it. That is illegal. Including taking over the streets and destroying the economy. They should find their own place to march, and stop annoying others, and pay for all the expenses. Including policing.

    158. Fred says:

      Anent the Orange Ludge, it’s a shadow of what it was in my young day, let it shuffle off into the history books.

      An excellent letter in today’s National, by a Robert White, on abolishing titles, there might be something to be said for the old Scottish earldoms but buggers using bogus titles awarded to their ancestors for selling Scotland at the Union should be tarred & feathered. Titles are apparently taboo in Canada, any Canadian accepting one loses his citizenship. Like the East Germans who got rid of them Von by Von! 🙂

    159. Smallaxe says:

      @ Jack Collatin,

      Jack,if your passing Gretna again take the turnoff into the town,the sign does not say Welcome to Scotland it says
      Scotland Welcomes You!I love to see it when coming home I think all the signs in Scotland should say something similar.

      If this site was private I would give my address you would be
      most welcome as would all genuine Wingers.Peace.

    160. Smallaxe says:

      @ Jack Collatin, O/T

      Jack,if your passing Gretna again take the turnoff into the town,the sign does not say Welcome to Scotland it says
      Scotland Welcomes You!I love to see it when coming home I think all the signs in Scotland should say something similar.

      If this site was private I would give my address you would be
      most welcome as would all genuine Wingers.Peace.

    161. Smallaxe says:

      O/T@ Jack Collatin,

      Forgot to mention I was born in Kintra St Govan,a weedgie bred
      and buttered! 🙂

    162. call me dave says:

      SNP’s Scottish Welfare Fund reports ‘worrying’ underspend of £1.5m says herald.

      But when you look at the figures you begin to wonder
      UK government set aside £24m to Scotland topped up by SG to £33m (+£9m) and there was an underspend of £1.5m.

      Maybe there was an overall increased spend of £7.5m then but I don’t work for the Herald or ‘Scottish labour’ 🙁

      https://archive.is/WxNaw

    163. Smallaxe says:

      @ call me dave,

      The herald uses Jackie B’s calculator and she’s still trying to find out how many millions are in a Brazilian.:-)

    164. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish Gov has spent £100million a year mitigating Westminster welfare cuts. £1/2Billion a year mitigating ‘bedroom tax’, increased social care, (saves revenues), increased SNHS spending £1Billion. There are more nursery places so more women are in work. Full loans for students and less uni fees. So more students can access College and University, instead of £3000 in unemployment benefits.

      More people are in work in Scotland. The Scottish gov are Investing in roads, railways and bridges. Child poverty is falling in Scotland but the Westminster Gov is sanctioning and starving vulnerable people, while sanctioning tax evasion. Food banks are total and utter disgrace and vulnerable people are being sanctioned. The ‘psycho bastards’ at Westminster are ruining the UK/world economy.

      Unionist councils spend £Billions on grotesque non mandated projects the majority do not want and then claim there is no money for essential services. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

    165. ScottishPsyche says:

      I see we are in for a summer of BBC and Herald FOIs and Jackie Baillie outrage at perceived spending cuts/underspends.

      The underspend outrage is particularly amusing. No context is ever given.

      The SNP are bad for spending allotted ring fenced amounts. They are bad for an underspend when an estimate comes in under budget.

      There is outrage that the SNP continue to spend all our allotted pocket money and so presumably are not trying to alleviate the £15 billion ‘black hole’ they have so recklessly created by balancing the books.

      They are bad because they do not create growth despite having limited powers to do so. They are bad because they have ambition beyond their jumped up status.

      SNP are Baaad.

    166. Andrew McLean says:

      They are only pissed off they cant report an overspend, that’s what they would love them to do!

    167. Smallaxe says:

      @ Ken500,

      I have read your posts for quite a long time now and I have noticed that you never use the personal,”I”,”me”or mine in any
      of your posts,only concern for the waste of taxpayers money’s
      and the plight of the more unfortunate and vulnerable in our
      Society.

      I have made my own conclusion from this observation and that is that you are a very altruistic Gentleman. I salute you Sir.
      Peace & Love to you and yours.

    168. Cherry says:

      Smallaxe

      So very pleased to see you posting so many comments today…I think you’re feeling on top form!!! 🙂
      Think the surgery has given you some extra bounce!

      I was married in Gretna and spent a fabulous week there…just wanted to say hi and let you know you have been in my thoughts…take care and go from strength to strength 🙂

    169. Grouse Beater says:

      “Jackie Baillie outrage at perceived spending underspends.”

      Hypocrisy from the party that returned £1.3 billion to the UK Treasury because they ‘couldn’t find anything to spend it on’?

      (PS: Cost of new Forth Crossing … £1.3 billion.)

    170. Lenny Hartley says:

      Grouse beater
      Think The North British branch of Labour and indeed Labour were nefarious. It was not a simple case of underspend, it was an attempt to deceive the Scottish people, Announce record spending in Scotland in the knowledge that you have done a deal that the increase is not spent, a paper exercise in pulling the wool over our eyes.

    171. Smallaxe says:

      Cherry,

      I thank you for your very kind and much appreciated thoughts,I have been feeling a lot better today maybe it’s the drugs,not mine may I add, I think it’s the ones they are taking down at
      WM.
      I hope they keep it up as they are doing most of our work for us.Peace,Love and Happiness to you and yours.

      Ps,my wife and myself have had the privilege of standing as witnesses at many Weddings here for couples from all over the
      World who arrive here on their own.I will never understand how
      many people refuse as it only takes 15 minutes of our time and
      as I have said we consider it a privilege.

    172. ScottieDog says:

      So now the chancellor approves expansion of LCY airport at £345 million. More London bungs.

    173. bjsalba says:

      Had a friend who ran a specialized polling agency in New York.

      Her take?

      There are two ways to rig a poll.

      1. The order of questions.
      2. The way the questions you ask are phrased.

      She was right.
      When she retired her company fell into the hands of people who did not understand 1 and 2 two above. It did not last long.

    174. scotspine says:

      Truly sick and tired of BBC Scotland.

      Today (as every day really), we have had political news slanted to undermine the Scots Govt and non political stories headed up overwhelmingly by experts from Outwith Scotland and pushing Britain, British, UK.

      The hypocracy is overwhelming. Multiple BBC FOI requests to NHS Scotland used to attack the Scots Govt. Remember, NHS is a publicly funded body. Yet any and all FOI requests about BBC Scotland operations (remember, they too are publicly funded) are dismissed with no method of appeal.

      The BBC is the main enemy in terms of our cause. They were in 2014 and will continue to do all they can to protect their precious Union.

      SNP will not attack them, so it is down to the people.

      They cannot be allowed to continue to be unaccountable.

      People who are pro Indy and those that are potentially pro Indy are paying a tax to be lied to and misled.

      There is a precedent here. NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

      Is there a possibility of a co-ordinated no pay campaign regards the TV License?

      What could they do? Take everyone to court?

      Any defence would have a field day. So much so that I doubt there would be any prosecutions. They couldnt afford the public analysis of their reporting methods.

      Its either that, or a class action against the BBC.

      Or, we simply let them continue to make fools of us.

      Im talking hypothetically on open public forum, as advocating these actions might open one to being arrested for suggesting what could be considered a conspiracy. Then again, would the BBC report someone to the Police at the risk of a defence agent (Solicitor) requesting disclosure of BBC data to form a defence, for them to deny the request. That would be a breach of human rights and the case would likely collapse with BBC getting ironically, bad press.

      Food for thought.

      I reckon Im now on someones watch list for discussing the possibility of a conspiracy to commit a crime.

    175. heedtracker says:

      1. The order of questions.
      2. The way the questions you ask are phrased.

      Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country and a member state of the European Union?

      Yes

      No

      Maybe

      The EU had better do more than last time, because Pres Barrosso did everything possible to make sure we knew Scotland was out, probably for ever, with YES.

    176. ROBBO says:

      As said many times the results are not surprising given the heavy media bias. The people we have to convert to the cause are quite frankly unlikely to be convinced by the above as the only source of news they get is via the TV and national press. The Wee Ginger Dug is perfectly correct we cannot wait until the starting pistol is fired for Indy2 we have all got to get out there and convince voters on their doorsteps. We left it far too late the last time and in many areas Yes campaigners ran out of time. GET YOUR BOOTS ON WE NEED TO START NOW.

    177. ScottishPsyche says:

      State of this:

      http://archive.is/QWxQS

      Andrew Collier, speechwriter to Nicola sturgeon and Alex Salmond says they did not do enough to decry ‘cybernats’. He says the BBC bias ‘paranoia’ must be addressed before Indyref2. Is this another Alex Bell, looking to make a career out of biting the hand that fed him?

      How about the BBC addresses the trust issues it has created with half the population?

    178. Naina Tal says:

      Hypothetically, couldn’t a bank account or something similar be opened for people to pay their license fee into. To be paid to BBC whent they provide a fair broadcasting service? Would that help get round the law? Maybe someone would have the knowledge to make a project like that work.

      I mention it because many years ago ratepayers did something along those lines when the local cooncil weren’t providing adequate services.

    179. scotspine says:

      @ Naina Tal.

      Hypothetically, thats a good idea. Or the money could hypothetically be paid to an online pirate rival.

    180. Ken500 says:

      @ Smallaxe

      Thank you from your kind thoughts. Really wish you well. You are often in the thoughts of others.

      It is important to be objective – with the facts and figures – wherever possible. Just because of the intentional deceiving lies.

      It is just unbelieveable that elected members are bombing and maining innocent people and attacking the sick and the vulnerable. Most people in the world have really had enough of it. When Scotland is Independent the vulnerable can be taken care of just like in many other countries. That is the path Scotland in on. Sanctioning people and food banks are just totally Unexceptable. It is unbelievable.

      It was something learn through education. ‘I’ – ‘me’ is subjective and should by avoided. The facts should be verified and relied upon. ‘Facts are sacred’ – If only. Never start sentences with ‘And’.

      The ‘Guardian’ has a slogan – ‘Facts are sacred’ etc. They are not to be relied upon. They do not practice what they preach. They are the only Press with freedom of editorial. Instead of using that position, they abuse it. The Constitution is supposed to assure the credibility. The owners had forsakened £Millions to leave a self supporting Constitution.

      Rev Stu needs the thanks for setting up and supporting the website. That is altruism. A real achievement.

    181. Stoker says:

      ROBBO wrote (@ 5:41 pm):
      “GET YOUR BOOTS ON WE NEED TO START NOW.”

      Good point ROBBO but many of us haven’t really stopped. I personally don’t pass up any opportunity to spread the message. Let the SNP govern and steer us towards Indyref2 as we, the footsoldiers, work on converting and gaining the numbers we require. The BUM never ceases transmitting its messages nor should we. Keep active, folks! You snooze we lose!

    182. Naina Tal says:

      scotspine:
      Hypothetically I like your line of thinking.Just hypothetically of course.

    183. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Naina Tal No Ifs Ands & Buts. AM no paying the Bbc Licence fee.

      There’s a big flaw in your hypothesis ie collectivly paying into a bank account. Bbc would have no problem in securing a court order on any account.

      Sorry to burst yer bubble.

    184. heedtracker says:

      ScottishPsyche says:
      27 July, 2016 at 5:44 pm
      State of this:

      Are you now or have you ever a been a cybernat?

      Pretty sleazy stuff but hasnt got the balls to just say shut up and let the pros get on with reining on you. So much for democracy and freedom of speech. A lot of hacks online sometimes blurt out this kind of creepy malice towards cybernats but who made slobs like this arbitrators of who can say what?

      One way of shutting up BBC complainers is to sell it all off for a quid. BBC is no different from SKY or STV except that its meant to be not like SKY and STV.

      Pretty good trolling from the dude though, considering

      “Yes supporters need to befriend the media, not constantly vilify it. The best way to sell the idea of a mature, responsible and tolerant democracy is to have a mature, responsible and tolerant campaign to project that democracy to those who remain sceptical. That means nurturing the messengers, not shooting them.
      Over to you, Nicola.

      Comment by Andrew Collier. Andrew is a freelance writer and broadcaster covering Scottish politics, business and religion. A former Scottish correspondent of the Sunday Times, he has just returned to journalism after working for five years as a communications strategist for the SNP. He was also a speechwriter for Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.

    185. Tom Platt says:

      scotspine and Naina Tal, I am very interested in helping to develop this. I am disappointed in myself that I have not brought forward specific proposals through a group by now. I have been thinking and talking about it for a year or two…since the clear and continuing bias noticed in IndyRef1.

      SNP is probably the wrong organisation to take it forward..and, on the basis of such informal chat as I have had with some members, I doubt if they would even agree to be officially involved. It is probably better to form a group with a specific purpose rather than work through an existing organisation. Can we arrange to meet to discuss a way forward? Perhaps as we march on Saturday if we are all going?

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Does this mean fried ice-cream IS a reality? Or does it indicate that to those responding, British nationalism is more significant to them than party loyalty?

      Either way, I’d suggest ‘Scottish’ Labour and birds of a similar Yoon feather, have the same prospects as a 99* left out in the sun.

      * For all youngsters, a 99 was an ice-cream cone adorned with a couple of Cadburys’ Flakes.

      N.B. No simile is implied by the 99 reference, towards the character or probity of Ruthiekins and the Dug. Honest. 😉

    187. gus1940 says:

      Correct me if I am wrong but I have always been led to believe that the BBC does not carry advertising.

      Perhaps they should be asked to explain the 60 minutes long commercial for Kellog’s Cornflakes which was broadcast at peak time earlier this week.

    188. Cherry says:

      According to Andrew Collier we are all wrong in thinking that the BBC is a uk gov tool of propaganda…really!! Have we all collectively been sent to “cybernat” training camp?? Or…

      Was he just putting his CV out there, on the cheap, in the hope that someone will see his, oh so righteous, working past as a way of “trolling” the Indy movement and put the word CYBERNAT back on everyone’s mind!

      Cybernat = loony side of Indy = disregard opinion because= loony side of Indy!!

      Thanks to Rev Stu I think we can all spot a yoony wannabe “journo” on the make 😉

    189. heedtracker says:

      BBC London tv news signs off there with look back at 2012 London Olympics then ever dire One Show goes back to England 1966 World Cup winning thing.

      Brazil’s costs for Rio Olympics this year expected massive overspend with the total cost of Brazil’s games at $4.6bn. London’s games cost $12bn to $18bn depending on which UKOK news gimps can think of a figure. No one can vomit money over themselves like our neighbours.

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      gus1940
      Kellog was a Christian fundamentalist and prominent eugenicist, so it doesn’t surprise me if the BBC bam him up. Birds of a feather…

    191. mike cassidy says:

      Is this the same Andrew Collier complaining three years ago?

      http://www.allmediascotland.com/press/44031/andrew-collier-xxxxxx/

      Someone who was political editor of the Scottish Sun?

      Call for pot and kettle!

    192. harry mcaye says:

      I haven’t really been following the indy camp court case but tonight’s reporting did not paint them in a kind light. Unsurprising when some of their number seem to be slightly unhinged. Doing it for Jesus Christ, how we laughed at that old guy on Question Time, not so funny this time; executing judges not appointed by God. WTF!

    193. CameornB Brodie says:

      Birds of a feather…

      Eugenics (both positive and negative), was the cod science/bigotry of choice for the Victorian elites, in response to the perceived threat posed by the rabble of lumped proles thought to be diminishing the bloodstock of humanity.

      The BBC is simply a technological vehicle by which the same elites respond to the threat posed by the same lumped proles today, i.e. us.

    194. ScottieDog says:

      Anyone know (apart from the white paper) if there is a knowledge database in existence or planned with Q&A about Scottish independence. I don’t mean from a politician’s point of view but from the people? There doesn’t have to be single answers because much of that is down to opinion etc and we won’t all agree on what is the best way forward.

      I reckon it would be good to get some sort of repository with links for further reading that people could go and read. Just doing a Google search on scottish currency and economy for example will open up a vast amount of negative establishment press cuttings. Yet there are sound articles on building a nation’s economy that never see the light of day in the MSM because it blows away neoliberal myths. We need to start doing that in order to turn the tide.

    195. DerekM says:

      Kind of strange figures in that poll but i guess only to be expected since the whole yoon world is imploding.

      Not surprised to see the hard core yoons move to the conservatives as last bastion of yoonland question is can they move 55% or did that 55% ever exist in the first place without the vow devomax lie.

      ot

      Hey Eric i know you pop in to Wings best of luck with the new project i expect to see you put the dedication you showed as Falkirk MP into it we didnt vote you in for all those years just because you were Labour,oh and spill the beans Eric you now fine about the oil and all the inner workings of how it was hidden and about the set up of our parliament by Blair and the stolen sea.

      Time for the Truth Eric and let the past be the past and lets strive together as the yes movement the sovereign people of Scotland and forge a new path in a great union of countries the EU,strange thing is everybody keeps saying we hate unions which is not true ,we actually think they are a good idea but it relies on all partners being honest with the idea of partnership and not as some kind of hostile neo liberal capitalist takeover.

      Hey you know in an indy Scotland you would make a damn fine MSP or Government official you might even get my vote again .

    196. bjsalba says:

      I have to say that I like the idea of crowdfunding buying out STV.

    197. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi heedtracker.

      You suggested as a poll question,
      “Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country and a member state of the European Union?”

      My own opinion is that that question is the wrong one. It should be the same question as in Indyref 1.

      The principle of independence should be what we are voting for. Most people will understand that there is a strong POSSIBILITY that an independent Scotland would remain in the EU. The fact is that our Remain vote vs the England & Wales Leave vote has created a situation in which the Scottish government has to be seen to explore all avenues to keep Scotland in the EU.

      Eventually, it will come down to independence as the only option. My point is that in an independent Scotland in the EU, Hollyrood, a year or two down the line, when Scots have got used to the practicalities of independence in the EU, could put the question to us,

      “Should Scotland remain in the European Union?”

      If the question in Indyref 2 was as you suggest, there could be a substantional loss of YES votes, from Yessers who want independence, but don’t want to be in the EU. They would be faced with a choice: “Do I vote YES because I want independence, or do I vote NO, because I don’t want Scotland in the EU?”

      It’s putting unnecessary psychological pressure on people in that situation. Let’s vote for independence FIRST, then an independent Scotland can sort out EU membership, currency, monarchy, and so on, according to the will of the Scottish people.

    198. Dal Riata says:

      Finally got around to having a look BTL the, “Sturgeon: independence may be best for Scotland amid Brexit upheaval” article in the Guardian. I expected it would be wall-to-wall abuse, but the toxicity and venomousness of the majority of comments are much, much worse than that. It is absolutely fucking shocking!

      The Guardian is an utter disgrace: lying about being ‘left-leaning’; upholders of Westminster’s misrule; major plotters in the Corbyn coup attempt; haters of the SNP; proud to be part of the Better Together rogues during IndyRef1; promoting any garbage to stop Scotland going for IndyRef2; etc. Bunch of hypocritical cowards and vagabonds.

      Anyway, to that article re Nicola Sturgeon and Brexit and others regarding Scotland and its politics. The most obnoxious, filthy comment can be posted and allowed to stand – as long as it’s against Sturgeon, independence, Scotland, etc. Yet, if a supporter of any of these, for example, makes a similar comment as a retort to the abuser, or, even complains, then *they*, not the rightwing psychopath are the ones to get ‘disappeared’ or ‘naughty-stepped’! It is an absolute first degree fucking farce.

      And, since Brexit, it (the abuse) has only got worse!

      From the Guardian. CP Scott: “Comment is free, but facts are sacred”….

      Ha-ha-fucking-ha! Aye, right yez are! Lying hypocrites…

    199. tartanfever says:

      Scottie Dog says:

      ‘I reckon it would be good to get some sort of repository with links for further reading that people could go and read.’

      I’m doing the opposite of that at present, concentrating on the difficulties with Brexit. I figure that if the economic case scared No voters last time, maybe Brexit will scare them into voting Yes this time round.

      In that regard, there are many websites/blogs/organisations that have a plethora of info on Brexit that don’t make it into the mainstream press, mainly because they describe very difficult times ahead.

      Here are some sites of interest:

      Institute for Government
      http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/

      Centre for European Reform
      http://www.cer.org.uk/

      The UK and EU
      http://ukandeu.ac.uk/

      Twitter:

      Mark Curtis
      https://twitter.com/markcurtis30

      David Allen Green
      https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen

      Steve Peers
      https://twitter.com/StevePeers

      There are many others, but I could be here all night. The twitter accounts are good to follow as they link to blogs and articles elsewhere.

      Might be of some use.

    200. galamcennalath says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      I agree. The only decision to be made is Indy versus all the other shit. A simple yes or no to Indy will do.

      Widening the question to include the EU would be like “Indy and the Queen”, or “Indy and a republic”, or “Indy and no fracking” etc etc.

      One thing, the BIG thing, at a time.

      Who knows where our independence will lead as the years and decades roll past. The only thing that matters is that future will be our choice!

    201. Just read Andrew Collier`s shout for a job with BBC/STV ,

      nae wonder we never got a fair shout from MSM,

      if that was in charge of communications during Indy1,

      appeasement,appeasement,appeasement,

      SNP is well shot of him,

      whoever thought an appeaser like that would stand up to the BBC and the rest of the miserable media?,

      Nicola should double check her staff before Indy2 starts,

      we nead fighters not appeasers.

    202. DerekM says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon

      Spot on Brian even though i think the EU question is already resolved we must make sure that everybody knows loud and clear that this question must be asked again after Scotland has her independence,we still will hopefully be in the EU during our transition from the UK to an independent state this will be a lot harder than England leaving the EU as the UK has entrenched itself inside Scotland and hold the levers of power,the comparison with the EU is ok dont pay the fee get no money or say,that about sums up EU involvement in UK or here is a few legislations passed through parliament up to you.

      Really dictatoral i can see why the English want away from it they are not used to being told what to do but like to tell everybody else what to do,they are an odd bunch to say the least and today the hate has been spectacular.

    203. Dal Riata says:

      And another thing.

      The BBfuckingC.

      Are they under contract to only produce negative stories about the Scottish government, the SNP, SNP MPs, Nicola Sturgeon, Sturgeon and the SNP’s plans for a post-Brexit Scotland, the Scottish NHS, the Scottish police, Scottish education, possibility/probability of IndyRef2…?

      How is it possible for them to only find negative stories? Is there nothing positive to say? Ever? You know, like, not even once?

      The laws of probability surely suppose that out of every story concocted by the BBC (in Scotland) since, say, the beginning of the IndyRef1 campaign up until the present day, one of those, at least, must be a good-news, positive story about one of those subjects broached in paragraph one (above)… Surely?

      If they are being unbiased, fair, balanced, factual and not promoting one side or another as they say they are, there must be like, hunners of these positive stories… mustn’t there, eh….

      The BBC (and not just in Scotland) – lying to you or hiding the truth from you on a daily basis… because they can (get away with it).

    204. galamcennalath says:

      From Twitter

      Which of these statements is closest to your view?

      I would never vote for independence under any circumstances 30%

      I am not convinced of the case for independence, but am not opposed to it on principle 28%

      Scotland should definitely be an independent country 41%

      Panelbase 6th-12th November 2015

      I would LOVE to know what views are now, post Brexit!

      That figure of about 30% for the wannabe Greater Englander to the end types, keeps appearing. They are highly unlikely to ever convert until after Indy, which is when many will.

      Does leave a pool of 70% to get on side!

    205. Legerwood says:

      In any referendum on independence there should be one question the same as last time.

      There is no doubt that Scotland would continue in the EU after independence but there would have to be a degree of renegotiation on a range of issues. Once the renegotiations are complete and the terms of our continuing membership are known then a referendum on whether to remain or leave can be held.

      To include a question on the EU in the Indy ref is a bit like asking people to vote for a pig in a poke since the terms of our membership will not be known. It would also be a distraction from the main event – achieving independence.

    206. Arabs for Independence says:

      Gus1940 @ 6:55pm says

      “Correct me if I am wrong but I have always been led to believe that the BBC does not carry advertising.

      Perhaps they should be asked to explain the 60 minutes long commercial for Kellog’s Cornflakes which was broadcast at peak time earlier this week.”

      I thought that too. Apparently this programme is on for the next few weeks – well it is a cereal 🙂

    207. Finlay says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon & Heedtracker

      I reckon referendum hold the same fundamental principle as scientific experiment.

      You almost universally have to isolate a single variable for change and keep all others constant for your result to hold any meaning.

      Adding any additional choice or caveats to the question makes the choice more confusing for both the electorate in understanding their choice and for the governments tasked with implementing the results.

      No wiggle room at all can be given to either the Westminster Government or the Scottish Government at the time. Clear cut “Yes” or “No” to full blown independence is the only sensible question to be asking.

      “Should Scotland be an independent country?” is about as simplified as you can go without losing the meaning of the question or the clarity of what must be done following a “Yes”.

    208. Brian McGrath says:

      If you answer the questions objectively, then you may think Ruth Davidson is doing her job well. I am no fan of hers but she is a competent politician no matter what your political view is.

      Kezia Dugdale however seems to be out of her depth. Her party is is in disarray and she doesn’t know what she’s doing from one hour to the next.

      Theresa May is an abohernt person but she knows what she is doing and she will get it done..mainly because Labour are self destructing quicker than a Bond villain’s secret base.

    209. DerekM says:

      @ Finlay

      Yep straight question it will be then up to us to point out what a NO vote means and this time their lies will not hold up the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU is to vote for independece from the UK union.

      The only way for Scotland to prosper is to create our own currency and be independent from England and sterling and to protect it under the ERM umbrella or lose all the EU funding we get through the UK membership.

      No more MR nice guy Scotland they want project fear lets give them the Scottish version,capitol flight people flight economic meltdown spireling debt unpayable massive deficit,inflation busting all records sterling devalue loss of credit rating,pensions worth nothing as inflation makes sterling bum paper and the EU countries bouncing it around like a burst space hopper,banks insolvent housing bubble crash deep depression,now that all sounds terribly bad but you see the UK had a safety net to this calamity they have ensued upon Europe with their neo liberal pals its called oil.

      You see with oil you can pay of 1.6 trillion debt you can run a crazy deficit,keep those barrels pumping out and the markets will keep letting you away with it,now though suddenly take oil out the equation and jeez its a fucking disaster.

    210. ben madigan says:

      @ valerie re may’s tracts of her speeches

      hope you and everyone else enjoy this little post!

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/07/26/post-brexit-uk-family-and-tenants-are-revolting/

    211. Robert Kerr says:

      Jesus Wept.

      Teresa May… yet another clergyman’s daughter.

      What is it with these children.

      Gordo Broon, Wee Dougie and his sister, Vidkun Q. Angela Merkel.

    212. Paula Rose says:

      Hang on there Robert Kerr me and Lemmy I’ll have you know.

    213. macbeda says:

      Is this what’s been leading the media fight against MSM for SNP?

      http://archive.is/QWxQS

      Gods preserve us from people like this. No wonder the SNP gets trashed in the media.

      BBC Scotland always finds a negative in any news from SNP and he’s feckin defending then

      SNP has been infiltrated by 5th columnist unionistas posing as PR people.

      Time for the Rev to take over.

    214. call me dave says:

      Radio 5 Named person SG scheme debate just starting.
      SNP Bad!

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      I think as a member of the EU the UK is not supposed to negotiate trade deals independently of the EU, and the UK is still a member of the EU until Brexit actually happens.

      The US is negotiating TTIP with the EU and there are concerns in many EU member states. It only takes one to veto TTIP.

      The US and other countries want trading deals with the EU, and wouldn’t want to jeapordise that. Even officially negotiating with the UK, let alone signing a deal, could get a country a deal with a 64 million population country, rather than a 750 million block.

      Therefore it seems to me there are no official negotiations between the UK and US – or any other country. Talks is all.

    216. geeo says:

      Post on kezia’s Facebook page and my response…
      ……
      Theresa Brown.

      “I’m sorry I was a firm no supporter in 2014 and voted against independence then but now I feel bitterly disappointed and angry and I feel we were lied to then and now by the Tory government in Westminster they told us that if we voted for independence it would hasten the country to the exit door of the EU that I didn’t want or agree with then and I still don’t agree with now I still want to remain part of the EU but now I have come to the conclusion that being part of the UK is now not part of what I feel anymore I feel that for the last 18 months or so I feel the government in Westminster is working against Scotland’s best interest’s that they are ignoring us. In the run up to the EU I was disgusted and hurt by the racist xenophobic viscous nasty politics and it’s still happening now one month on and that saddens me I. Hate the thought of this country becoming a xenophobic, racist, intolerant and unwelcoming country to live in that isn’t the country I want to live in. I have since the EU referendum come to the conclusion that independence might be the best hope for this country. The government in Westminster say that they are in listening mode and want to work with the the other administrations within the UK something I don’t believe Theresa May seems to be focused on leaving the EU something Scotland, Northern Ireland, London and Gibraltar did not vote and it seems that our opinions don’t matter. Kezia I implore you to change yours and Scottish Labour position on Scottish independence if you want Scottish Labour to more support in Scotland”.
      ………..
      My response.

      “Well said.

      I have supported independence all my life so obviously i am pleased to read your post and your reasoning.
      However, like yourself, i would prefer an independent Scotland which carried labour with it as a real Scottish Labour Party, focussed primarily on Scotland and her people.

      There is clearly a misconception that an independent Scotland will be ruled by the SNP for the rest of time.

      Utter nonsense of course. While the Election immediately after independence would almost certainly produce an SNP government, due to delivering independence, there is no certainty that labour would not win the next one or next after that.

      An iScotland would also scrap First Past The Post and introduce a fairer system of PR, indeed, moves are already afoot in this respect for holyrood. This will help balance the parliament and provide a better system of accountable government and a more effective opposition.

      Independence is coming, those who remain in denial politically face the real prospect of being left to wither on the outside looking in with regret.

      If labour advised their support to back independence, they might just give themselves a chance of existance come that inevitable day, and with it, a future where they could help shape Scotland in a positive way.

      The choice for labour is simple, come with Scotland or be left behind to fade into the mists of history.

      Time is running out, time to decide”.
      …….

    217. heedtracker says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      27 July, 2016 at 8:13 pm
      Hi heedtracker.

      You suggested as a poll question,
      “Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country and a member state of the European Union?”

      Hello, you make a great case or cases, its just that Scots 62% vote Remain. I’m like a dog staring in through the butchers shop window and drooling.

      62%. Sixty two percent.

      And that was with a lot of pretty sophisticated Brexiteering stuff online too, facebook in particular. That Shorthouse BetterTogether spiv, explained how effective UKOK thought social media like facebook is and how they got stuck in, monstering everything and anything anyone YES said and instantly, with squads of BT staff.

      Facebook can certainly tell campaigners like BetterTogether and Leave almost exactly who and how many view there stuff and Leave did emulate BetterTogether, especially on facebook on SNP stuff.

      Leave were just as heavy hitting as BetterTogether 2014, if a bit more focused and brutal but crucially facebook users are mainly younger votes.

      Does Leave going apeshit on facebook matter? Clearly they’re aim was achieved but UKOK rule Britannia wise, they’d have had to have aimed at taking Scotland with them and failed badly. They may have chipped a few points off the Scots Remain total but they failed in right in the demographic that will be the future of a Scotland running its own affairs in Europe.

      Tick tock.

    218. Stephen McKenzie says:

      Macbeda @ 11:00

      As for Andrew Collier, read into the in-between lines in the STV piece, he was a “former” in a number of roles, he is “returning to journalism”. E.G. He may be available at short notice for any comment for a small fee.

      Only obvious role for him in a diminishing Unionist Journalist cohort is to compete against Tom Harris and John McTernan at an even lower rate.

      Anyway I don’t like him..

    219. Still Positive. says:

      callmedave@11.11

      I was a teacher in a secondary school, mainly in Glasgow, for 17 years (retired in 2011). One of the things we were taught in college was that we were ‘in loco parentis’ that is we stood in for parents and we had to have our pupils’ best interests at heart.

      The ‘Named Person’ just clarifies that as it probably does for Health Visitors – I remember her from when my own children were pre-school and she wanted the best for the children she was responsible for. Same as any good parent.

      The SG Act just joins up the dots to save those children who, sadly, slip through the net. Basically there will be no net for them to slip through and good parents should have no worries over it – despite what the MSM and public broadcasters may say to the contrary.

    220. G4jeepers says:

      One for the Rev. If he’s unbusy tomorrow around 2.15pm.

      http://www.londonnet.co.uk/cinema/bath-littletheatrecinema.html

    221. K1 says:

      geeo can I suggest you post Eric Joyce’s piece from earlier today to that FB conversation you are having, he is reaching out to former No voters and makes the case for Scottish independence in light of Brexit. Think he’s setting up a website ‘NotoYes.scot which is aiming to bring together the Noes who’ve changed their mind’s as a way of increasing our numbers toward the 60% + for independence.

      http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2016/07/all-scottish-unionists-are-brexiteers-now/

    222. Effijy says:

      The next person to sign the petition protesting against Blatant BBC Bias will be Number 89,725.

      There is a link below for any infrequent visitors to the site or for those like minded people that you haven’t sent it to yet!

      Let’s make sure that we get at least 90,000 Scots registering their protest against the Westminster Propaganda machine.

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    223. Brian McGrath at 9.30

      Ruth looks like a competent politician because she is getting very generous press coverage and no hard questions. Kezia was thrown overboard by the media last autumn as the secret establishment decided to back the Tories to save the union.

    224. gordoz says:

      O/T

      Cat Headley / Labour UKOK aka revival architect (?)

      https://twitter.com/Cat_Headley?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

      (Muppet : has to be said)

    225. gordoz says:

      Cat Headley: Labour Visionary & Guru – (failed candidate btw)

      “Anyone in Labour Party advocating a political & parliamentary alliance with SNP not only betrays our values but every member in Scotland.”

      Now there’s the way back then!

    226. gordoz says:

      “If you answer the questions objectively, then you may think Ruth Davidson is doing her job well. I am no fan of hers but she is a competent politician no matter what your political view is”

      You are joking right ??

      Its called manipulation by the establishment if you look & listen closely you’ll get it.

      She says what they want, so she gets the airtime.

    227. crazycat says:

      @ gordoz

      So Ruth’s an establishment patsy, and she’s performing that role, so she’s doing her job well….. 🙂

      I do these YouGov surveys. I always say that leaders of unionist parties are doing extremely badly, but I do wonder if that’s true – I want them to fail, so from my point of view Kezia, for instance, is doing just fine!

    228. yesindyref2 says:

      A line I’m starting to take, gently, nicely, even with “hard” NOes is this: “It’s going to happen, if not now then in 10 years, 20, 40 years. So do you want this hanging over you for years, maybe the rest of your life? Why not vote YES and get it over with!”.

      It’s actually getting a few people thoughtful.

    229. Balaaargh says:

      I think Ruthie is doing a fantastic job as great chieftainness of the tories in Jockland.

      Conniving, deceitful and would happily sell us all for her shot at an ermine coat. Yup, I would expect no less from someone in her elevated position.

    230. Still Positive. says:

      indyref2 @ 12.39

      Good tack – may try it myself.

    231. geeo says:

      @K1.

      Cheers for that, posted to conversation on Kezia Dugdale’s page.

      Caveated it with “you do not need to like him to appreciate the sentiment in his article”.

    232. Sunniva says:

      I’ve got one question for Ruth Davidson: Why do you, a Scot, and a feisty, intelligent woman, and a Tory – support dependence?

    233. Iain More says:

      I think Dippity Dug is doing a brilliant job of leading the Brit Nat Labour Party in Scotland to extinction.

      I don’t think many uhmm Scot Nats thought carefully enough about that question above. But then I suspect that the poll was conducted in Ian Murrays constituency in one of the Old Folks Homes and it was filled out by the uhmm Brit Nats on the staff? Well I think even the senile dislike Ruthie and that is putting it mildly.

    234. geeo says:

      @sunniva.

      Or…..

      “Ruth Davidson, just why” ?

    235. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sunniva.

      Good question!

      BTW: are you from Shetland? (I’ve asked before with no response.)

    236. K1 says:

      Fair do’s geeo caveat wise, the former Unionist’s are the ones who will have to do a lot of the pulling in persuading their side to come over to our side, pulling and sharing I suppose 😉

    237. geeo says:

      K1..

      If they vote YES, I don’t care if they do it kicking and screaming…lol

    238. O/T @ Smallaxe.
      A Govan boy? I suspect, you, like I, have the Clyde’s Red Lead surging through your veins. My father was a ‘Bankie, my mother a Scotstoun Lass.
      My Dad built the Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth, and the QE II. He had a couple of lads help him with the heavy lifting bits, I hear.
      We are truly standing on the shoulders of giants.
      Next time I cross the border, I am minded to pop into Gretna for a wee scone and cuppa.

    239. Carol says:

      Overheard three women yesterday discussing the state of Westminster and Brexit. One of them then said she was going to hold her breath and tick Yes the next time as we could not do any worse than that lot down there. The other two went quiet then agreed. I just hope all these former No voters don’t change their mind again.

    240. gerry parker says:

      Robert Kerr @10:31 pm.

      “Come with me and I will make you fishers of men”

    241. Andrew McLean says:

      A thread, small thred, in the media is that WOS is vile and obscene, and the SNP should distance itself from it, well I have posted, mostly innate ramblings for several years, I read wings nearly every day, and if I miss a day I look back. I have yet to read anything vile, and obscenity is severely lacking in 99.9 % of posts.
      I think they hate us, and the warning usually “don’t read wings”, not “I disagree with the content” is because it is informative, interesting, intelligent, instructive, and that’s just the posters, the discussion pieces by Stewart and others are out of this world.
      We, well more correctly you, frighten the living daylight out of them.so more power to you all!

      You want vile and obscene, you look at our national press, old dirty vile men and that’s just the story writers. Read the comments about the First Minister, I never heard anything as vile and obscene about any politician.

      And the reason, there is only one, we, you, are wining! Every day of this battle we take ground, this war of attrition is being fought in every home and every community in Scotland, and we are winning.
      Victory is ours, it is our right as Scots, from wherever you began your journey, to seek and obtain the democratic people’s goal the world over, and that is self determination, the right to control your own destiny, and without your aspirations being oppressed by your neighbor.

      We on wings hold no hatred of England, no malice towards its people, and take no succour from its failings. We wish only peace and prosperity for its people, and pray for the day that our wish is reciprocated.

      Scotland is a proud, prosperous country, vast in area, outlook and ambition, but poorly served by its media, that medias aim to distort the truth, to oppress wishes of the the population.

      Vile and obscene, why would we see the need to get into the gutter with the opposition, we are the winners, the heart of a nation, we are proud and strong, our head held high as our country progresses to its inalienable state of independence.

      We have no need for the likes of smart and spanner, what use they, those gutter snipes, grovelling apologisers for a corruption, a despised class, a yooon underclass of racists and the bigotry they spouse. We are so much above them, we look down with pity, as you pity the fool unaware of his foolishness.

    242. Smallaxe says:

      @ Jack Collatin,

      Jack,we seem to have more in common than you know,you say your Dad built the QE11,at that time I was working at Colville”s steel mill in Bogleshole Rd.Cambuslang I was only about 16/17 at that time and I used to have to walk on to the hot steel plates wearing a pair of clogs and carrying a pot of special white paint to paint the numbers on the plates for that beautiful ship.

      I think you’re Dad and I did a good job on her! When I left the steelworks I came down to this area and built the bridge over the river Eden,and like your Dad had a couple of guys helping me with the heavy lifting. I would love to meet you
      sometime Jack,as I said you would be made very welcome in my
      home.Peace & Love.Billy

    243. Sunniva says:

      @Briandoonthetoon. Not Shetland. Norway. Half of me anyway. Norway escaped from a union with Denmark in 1814. We called the union period ‘the four hundred year sleep’. Never looked back.

    244. call me dave says:

      SG ‘Named Person Scheme’ Supreme court decision on the objections to it later this morning.

      https://archive.is/sDl2g

      PS:
      Henry McLeish: Scottish Labour must split from UK party before Jeremy Corbyn wrecks chances of election win.

      https://archive.is/jhao7

    245. Smallaxe says:

      @ Andrew Mclean,

      Excellent post Andrew,I am sure that the bile and obscenities from the yoon camp stems from fear,they look at WOS and can see that they are on the losing side.

      I think of WOS as Wings Over Scotland and also WE OWN Scotland! Peace.

    246. JaceF says:

      Ah, Ruth Davidson the Willy Wonka of Phimosis Politics.

    247. Andrew McLean says:

      Small axe,
      Even the smallest axe cut cut down the mighty oak, and you sir are one sharp axe! I am pleased you are feeling better.

      The days after the first independence referendum, posters on here were quite despondent, well you were allowed to be, but read my post, still there, and tell me I was wrong, I said it wasn’t the end, but the beginning, I said the battle joined, and next time we will be victorious, the opposition had played every card they had, we a movement had only just started!
      They laughed and told us to get back in our box, what did we do some months later 56 MPs, and the inhalation of the Labour Party in Scotland, now only held up by the free publicity of the Union media.

      I was right then and I am right now, do not take a break, despite what anyone says, do you think for a second the unionists controlling the media, the Daly onslaught of SNP, independence bad will take a break, not a bit of it.

      You are Winning, every single day you get stronger, they threw everything at us and it bounced off! Their guns are spiked, there argument shown as corrupt, their leaders in disarray, they have never been so weak, we never so strong.

    248. gordoz says:

      Well said Andrew Mclean

      My next task will be to get more of the over 40’s to go online and read the comment posts of their fave hard copy Union supporting press.

      Get them to read all xenophobic anti Scottish rants aimed at the FM and the res if us.

      Shameful if not illegal for the most part.

      Its an eye opener to most as they never delve beyond the headlines.

      The National should get right stuck into the subject of the cyberBrits

    249. Cymro says:

      This really should not be a surprise. We see exactly the same thing in Wales. Here, most Labour voters are instinctively conservative by nature (with a small c) and firmly Unionist. That is why in the past few years many traditional Labour voters in Welsh seats have been switching to UKIP, and in the EU referendum, it was these so-called Socialists who voted Leave in huge numbers. I had many conversations with members of this group during election campaigns in 2015-2016, and every single person I engaged with during these campaigns seemed to be obsessed with ‘Muslims’, ‘foreigners’ and ‘migrants’ taking over the country, and the area I live in has 2.5% of its population born outside the UK.

      These voters it seems have no difficulty in switching their support from Labour, to right-wing xenophobic and racist Unionist parties.

      Labour is in deep trouble throughout these islands.

    250. Andrew McLean says:

      Small axe,
      Typo “can cut” 🙂

    251. Smallaxe says:

      @ JaceF,

      I only hope that Ruthless Davidson has Priapism to go along with that Phimosis.Ouch.Peace.

    252. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Andrew McLean. Good comment, which has set me up for the day.

      Yesindyref2, I like your Grind ’em Down/Resistance Is Futile persuasion. Another line to try can be, “Are you happy being dependant on England?” That usually sets some hares running with Pwoud Scots.

      I remember a Voxpops feature with photos in The Herald (before I stopped) about Indy. One person was a groovy organic spelt ciabatta-consuming type in IT who said simply, “I am against independence.” I remember at the time thinking “In what other aspects of life would we have anything other than contempt for such an attitude from a 36 year old?”

      Maybe someone could make up badges for No voters: I Wanna Be Dependant!

      It’s the political equivalent of Homer Simpson’s plangent cry, “Can’t someone else do it?” and just as weak and irresponsible.

    253. Macart says:

      If they are to survive at all, (we’ve moved beyond relevance already), Labour have to do something I don’t believe they are capable of with their current leadership group in Scotland.

      Labour in Scotland MUST become Scottish Labour. The days of devolution are coming to an end one way or another and it’ll be independence or Tory dismantling of Scotland one slice at a time. The PLP won’t stop it. They simply don’t give a shit about anything outside of their bubble and they have almost zero chance of seeing the big chair in anything up to three or four parliamentary terms. The PLP is in utter chaos and society in the UK lurching ever rightward as a voting intent. They’re headed for a very dark place we should have no part of and I think many within Labour in Scotland know this to be true.

      There is no devo max or FFA, no federal solution and never was. The time for political ‘games’ is well and truly past. Most of all Labour in Scotland need to lose the hate and the tribalism. They need to lose ‘politics as it is practiced in the UK’ and start practicing politics in Scotland for the Scottish electorate. People cannot afford games anymore. It is just that desperate a situation.

      There may be an opportunity coming for Labour in Holyrood to serve notice of their intent. The choice, as always, is theirs to make. For those MSPs who choose the people over the PLP, the Scottish electorate over the UK state construct, there will be an open hand because they are and will be truly needed to move Scotland forward.

      Independence is inevitable and its happening now as a natural consequence of the Westminster system’s own actions. The momentum and desire for change in Scotland is building with every hate filled headline from the dog whistle press and every ignorant and arrogant statement issued by central government or their shadow counterparts.

      If that referendum bill is ever presented to the Holyrood chamber, Labour have one last chance to be part of something special IMO.

      Their choice.

    254. Lanarkist says:

      Heedtracker,

      This R. Short house confession to BT social media activity during Indy Ref1 is interesting. I wonder where the Social Media teams were based if only to match with the UN charter about no interference from outside the Country contemplating their own self determination!

    255. This admiration for The Ruthfuhrer,

      just goes to show how much influence the MSM still has on forming public opinion,

      she is a nasty Tory sociopath nothing more nothing less,

      the BBC and the Yoon press have managed to polish a turd,

      manipulating the public through misinformation and propaganda is what the BBC are for.

    256. Breeks says:

      Sorry troops, I just don’t get why Ruthie Davidson registers as popular, credible, whatever…

      All I see is crass self promotion, thoroughly disingenuous self-effacing hubris, and an insatiable lust for power which deeply resents her second class “Scottish” ticket for getting there. You would have to cast a wide net with a fine mesh to find any career politician or even celebrity who wouldn’t ask themselves whether a press photo of themselves sitting on a buffalo was good PR. To me it displays a “Boris Johnston type” woeful lack of judgement. But then, why bother with talent when you can build a career for yourself throwing muck at the progressive voices in Scotland, and maybe get a white weasel neckscarf Into the bargain? I’m not even 100% sure it’s power she wants as much as celebrity status and recognition which comes with it. That’s the kind of power which turns into tyranny.

      If Ruthie wasn’t a politician, she’d be in sales; cold calling, and back stabbing, and going for the jugular on commission. Yawn. I’m glad Ruthie is in politics, because I rather suspect in her other life it might be tanks, guns and ammunition she’d be selling.

      Ruth Davidson isn’t a star, sorry Ruthie, she is just the noisiest mudskipper in the shrinking muddy puddle of Scottish Unionism. Unionist certainly, but I’m not even sure she is all that Conservative. I think she is like Kezia in some ways; too much individualism to be content in the herd, but too little talent to actually lead the herd. They shout and scream all they want to turn left or right, but the herd presses on regardless.

      If I was a genuine Scottish Tory, I truly suspect I’d be keeping my trap shut, biding my time, and patiently waiting for Independence to happen to clear the pipes of unionism once and for all, so that right wing philosophy can rid itself of Westminster Neoliberalism and Thatchers poisonous legacy with its toxic half life to rival plutonium. A new, free Scotland could be a very positive and progressive opportunity for a smart thinking Tory. And no, I wasn’t thinking of the Queen’s 12th man, Murdo. The litmus test for Scottish Tories is their commitment to Scotland above the Union. A test they all fail pretty dismally at the moment.

      Personally, I actually do wonder what kind of animal will be the driving force behind business and industry in a post-neoliberal world which has finally realised that there is more to life, and a healthy economy, than merely the unhindered pursuit of money. I’ll be curious to watch how the SNP / Business for Scotland narrative evolves after Independence. Something new? Or neoliberalism-lite? The former I hope, the latter I suspect.

      But that is all to come.

      Right now, for what is best for Scotland, I would trust that Buffalo’s instincts above Ruth Davidson’s.

    257. gordoz says:

      O/T

      Cairnstoon on Bella ??
      See this Brexit ….

    258. Flower of Scotland says:

      Andrew McLean@8.11am

      Great comment! I don’t comment much but I read Wings up to 5-6 times a day. It’s my anchor. If anything happens in the world Wings twitter and this page has the best analysis of it.

      You can tell by the number of trolls that come on here to dish the dirt and stir things up, that we are winning!

      By the way Rev, where,s my vile cybernat badges?

    259. packhorse pete says:

      @Macart

      “Independence is inevitable”

      I wish we wouldn’t keep talking as though all we had to do was to wait for the coronation. We had this last referendum. Unfavourable opinion polls were dismissed as rogue, with all sorts of tosh about “shy yes” voters and media-controlled polls. Canvassing returns were described as amazing, and terms like “landslide” were used.

      There is nothing inevitable about independence. We have to work for it, overcome a hostile press/BBC and talk to people there than ourselves.

    260. scotspine says:

      A court in England rules against a Scots Govt policy. FFS, how many slaps in the face do we need?

    261. Capella says:

      “Supreme Court” decrees the Named Person scheme unlawful under the “right to privacy” law. Scottish Court of Session approved it.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36903513

    262. Macart says:

      @packhorse pete

      The statement has nothing to do with how we get there and waiting for a coronation is not an option. Never has been. It is my personal view, held by many others, of the course of events.

      It is also however, a statement of very real and very determined intent. Doesn’t matter whether it is next year, or ten years, politicians can either get with the programme, or get out of the way. Every person reading this site is well aware that independence has to be earned and worked for.

      Not our first rodeo. 🙂

    263. Smallaxe says:

      @Andrew McLean,

      Typo,no problem we all make them, I understood what you meant
      anyway.Peace my Friend.

    264. Sinky says:

      Packhorse Pete says
      “There is nothing inevitable about independence. We have to work for it, overcome a hostile press/BBC and talk to people there than ourselves.”

      Spot on… we must also start engaging with anti Indy letter writers and point out their errors whilst promoting the positive case for Scotland. Same with radio phone ins.

      Join your local E-Library as many give access to Press Reader where you can get all of the newspapers except Murdoch Group which is subscription only.

      No point just posting on Wings or writing to The National as we must convince one in every twenty voters to switch to YES.

      Personally I think it is a waste of effort engaging with online fanatics as well constructed letters are much more effective with the voters we seek to influence.

    265. Robert Kerr says:

      @Capella

      I read your link and I am amazed that the European Human Rights has been invoked against the SG named person.

      They don’t do irony do they?

      This “supreme court” crap must be resisted by the SG.

      Is this a real “causus belli” for independence?

      Getting angry now.

    266. Capella says:

      Angry? Furious I would say. Here are the biographies of the Supreme court judges. There are two who are Scottish apparently.
      https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/biographies-of-the-justices.html

      Also, in the FAQ section it asks if the Supreme court can over rule the UK Parliament and the Devolved Parliaments. I would say that they have acted outwith their powers here.

      Can the UKSC overrule the UK Parliament?

      No. Unlike some Supreme Courts in other parts of the world, the UK Supreme Court does not have the power to ‘strike down’ legislation passed by the UK Parliament. It is the Court’s role to interpret the law and develop it where necessary, rather than formulate public policy.

      Can the UKSC overrule Devolved Parliaments and Assemblies in other parts of the UK?

      The UKSC can hear ‘devolution issues’, which include questions about whether a Bill or Act of Parliament, or any provision of a Bill or Act of Parliament, is within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly. Under the Government of Wales Act 2006, a question whether an Order in Council, Assembly Measure, Act of the Assembly or Bill is within the legislative competence of the Welsh Assembly can also be referred to the UKSC.

      https://www.supremecourt.uk/faqs.html#1c

    267. mealer says:

      sinky 10.08
      That’s an excellent post.

    268. Fred says:

      Sooner we’re Ruthless the better!

    269. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sunniva.

      The reason I asked is because, in the 60s, I knew a lady from Shetland called Sunniva McRobb.

      ———————————————–

      Hi Macart.

      RE: Labour at Hollyrood. My prediction – when a motion to hold indyref2 is put to the Scottish Parliament, SNP and Greens will be for, tories will be against and Labour will (mostly) abstain, unless they manage to get their act together.

    270. Barbara Reid says:

      I was asked a few days ago to complete a yougov poll. The first asked my political affiliation. I am a SNP member and canvasser. The survey then went on to ask about places I went to for meals. Very obvious form of filtering out SNP members.

    271. Macart says:

      @BDTT

      Wouldn’t surprise me Brian and TBH such a choice would serve just as well. I hope though, that should the bill be brought before parliament, they choose to take a more positive and proactive step.

    272. Luigi says:

      Carol says:

      28 July, 2016 at 8:07 am

      Overheard three women yesterday discussing the state of Westminster and Brexit. One of them then said she was going to hold her breath and tick Yes the next time as we could not do any worse than that lot down there. The other two went quiet then agreed. I just hope all these former No voters don’t change their mind again.

      PREDICTION: Support for independence, which rose after BREXIT, will dip slightly again, as knee-jerk reaction subsides and the media’s efforts to convince that BREXIT is not that bad (well underway already) have some effect. After the little dip, support for independence will resume its slow, but upward trajectory. 🙂

    273. You will keep on reporting these phoney polls you are doing there job for them they never tell you how many people they asked or where they were asked the whole idea of their polls is to try to influence the gulable making out the opinions of the few represent the views of the many so please stop reporting this nonsense you insult our intelligence

    274. This confirms other polling evidence, showing Ruth & Sturgeon are the dominant figures on the political stage.

      Clearly Labour are finished, it has all the signs of a party in terminal decline. Kez and Corbyn are not the figures to turn around that sinking ship.

    275. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi ‘deanthetory.com’.

      You typed,
      “This confirms other polling evidence, showing Ruth & Sturgeon are the dominant figures on the political stage.”

      Yes indeed, “This confirms other polling evidence, showing Nicola & Davidson are the dominant figures on the Scottish political stage.”

      See? Fixed that for you…

    276. O/T Smallaxe @ 08.15
      On my dining room wall I have a photograph (discovered by accident in the ‘Clydebank Post’ of the 20 foremen who worked on the QE 2, with the mighty ship in the background on the evening before the launch in September 1967 (?)
      My Dad was the Foreman Coppersmith on the project.
      He would be 49 then.
      I remember that all the families of those involved in the construction were given a ‘guided tour’ of the ship; I’d have been 19 then. I recall marvelling at the opulence and musing that the ‘likes of us’ would never be able to afford such luxury.We certainly ‘knew our palce ‘ then.
      Billy, you more than most, know the devastation and suffering 50 years of political neglect and, quite frankly SE London Establishment malevolence directed towards working people and organised labour has visited upon the Clyde, and indeed other heavy manufacturing areas of Scotland and Northern England, and Belfast, not least of all by Tony Blair’s and Gordon Brown’s New Labour neo conservative Administration. The Clyde in Clydebank is an industrial wasteland now.
      I am eternally grateful to WoS for providing this deep and thought provoking forum, notwithstanding the odd over zealous rant (of which I have been more than guilty on occasion), which inspires such happy memories and recalls our proud and prosperous past.
      I will be delighted to chew the fat with you and yours next time I’m crossing the border.
      I’ll post on here when that happens. Probably mid autumn when I visit some very dear friends in the North, in Preston, Bolton, Manchester and Leeds, who contrary to all those Unionists who describe us as racist English haters, happen to be English, and bliddy well proud of it.
      I imagine that I’d track you down when I hit Gretna anyhow. Billy the Bridge Builder has a certain ring to it.
      I gather that you’ve not been well. Look after yourself.
      All the best, Jack.

    277. Smallaxe says:

      @Jack Collatin,

      Agree with all you say Jack,I have a Daughter who was brought up in England and another who lives in Wales.I also have many
      good decent friends who are English. Only the Ignorant think that we hate the English.

      Westminster however is a different matter!

      I hope to see you in the autumn,if you post on Wings when you will be in the area I will give you a mobile No.to call and hopefully we can get together for a blether.Peace to you and yours Jack my friend.

    278. jdman says:

      ATTENTION, ATTENTION
      TWITTERS DOWN
      REPEAT TWITTERS DOWN
      THIS IS NOT A DRILL
      REPEAT TWITTER IS DOWN
      PREPARE TO HAVE TO TALK TO THE WIFE!



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