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Wings Over Scotland


Stormy weather

Posted on May 20, 2014 by

In our poll results earlier today, we found out what Scots thought about the past and the present. But we also asked them to look ahead at the sort of Scotland (and UK) they see developing over the space of the next decade.

stormy

Here’s what they thought.

Everyone, we suspect, is getting pretty tired of the currency debate. “Better Together” and the three Unionist parties are still insisting that the rUK would refuse to share the pound with an independent Scotland, no matter how many experts (or anonymous UK government ministers) say that in reality a currency union will happen, and if it doesn’t then so-called “sterlingisation” is a viable – or even preferable – Plan B.

We wanted to find out who Scots believed without asking a loaded question that personalised the debate in the form of George Osborne or Alex Salmond or anyone else, so we tried to detach it from the current political situation and instead simply ask, looking over the heads of here-today-gone-tomorrow leaders, what currency people thought an independent Scotland would actually use.

————————————————————————————————–

The “Better Together” anti-independence campaign says that a Yes vote will mean Scotland “walking away from the pound”, as all three main UK parties have committed to refusing a currency union.

The pro-independence Scottish Government says that the rest of the UK would in reality agree to a formal currency union, but also notes that Sterling is a fully-tradeable world currency so an independent Scotland would be able to keep the pound even without the UK’s permission.

Regardless of your own preference, if Scotland were to vote for independence, what currency do you THINK it would use as an independent country?

The pound: 57%
A new Scottish currency: 19%
The Euro: 8%
Don’t know: 16%

————————————————————————————————–

A pretty resounding result, we’d say. Just 27% of Scots think an independent Scotland would use a currency other than Sterling, and that’s a view that crosses party boundaries. 53% of Labour supporters said the pound, along with 46% of Tories, 41% of Lib Dems and 70% of SNP voters.

In all but the Lib Dems’ case, that was more than a 2:1 margin over those who said anything else. Weirdly, Willie Rennie’s remaining faithful were almost evenly split between the pound and a new Scottish currency, at 41 to 37.

Even among No voters, 41% said an independent Scotland would keep the pound – almost twice the 22% predicting a new currency, nearly three times the 14% saying the Euro and well above the 23% who didn’t know. And of the undecideds, a crushing 70% think Sterling will be the new nation’s money – almost as high as the 72% figure among Yes voters.

In short: nobody’s buying the Unionist line on this. We suspect that if they keep battering at it, they’ll achieve nothing but even more damage to their own credibility.

————————————————————————————————–

Which of the following things do you think are LIKELY to happen in the next 10 years?

Scotland will become an independent country

Yes: 35%
No: 37%
Don’t know: 28%

Curiously, very little difference between men (37Y 38N) and women (33Y 36N).

The UK will hold a referendum on EU membership

Yes: 69%
No: 11%
Don’t know: 20%

We deliberately made the question cover 10 years so that it wouldn’t just be a matter of predicting who’d win the 2015 general election. Nevertheless, a huge majority of Scots think an EU referendum is coming soon.

The UK will vote to leave the EU

Yes: 31%
No: 38%
Don’t know: 32%

They’re a lot less sure about the outcome, though.

The NHS in England will become largely privatised

Yes: 48%
No: 23%
Don’t know: 29%

Those planning to vote for independence answered Yes here by more than four-to-one, whereas No voters were much more optimistic/deluded (delete according to preference) about the future of healthcare south of the border, with 39% agreeing and 33% disagreeing with the proposition.

The NHS in Scotland will become largely privatised

Yes: 18%
No: 52%
Don’t know: 30%

A similar breakdown except in reverse, with independence supporters confident by five-to-one that Scotland’s NHS was safe in the Scottish Government’s hands, while the margin among Unionists was only two-to-one. 24% of No voters feared a privatised Scottish NHS, with less than half – 49% – feeling it was secure.

Boris Johnson will become UK Prime Minister

Yes: 12%
No: 63%
Don’t know: 25%

Men were twice as likely as women to believe this.

There will be a Labour First Minister of Scotland

Yes: 40%
No: 22%
Don’t know: 38%

Our time period will span THREE Scottish elections in which only two parties have a forseeable prospect of providing the FM, but even at those odds only four out of ten Scots were prepared to predict Labour winning one.

Labour voters were the only ones to give the party a better-than-evens chance, with 58% saying Yes and just 9% saying No. (SNP supporters, perhaps interestingly, divided into three almost exactly equal groups.)

Students in Scotland will have to pay towards university tuition

Yes: 38%
No: 35%
Don’t know: 27%

Unionist voters overwhelming SNP supporters here. Those identifying with the three UK parties all predicted a return of some form of fees by large margins.

UKIP will have more seats at Westminster than the Liberal Democrats

Yes: 43%
No: 28%
Don’t know: 29%

Considering the current score is Lib Dems 57 UKIP 0, that’s quite a prediction. Even 31% of Lib Dem voters agreed with it, though (against 55% who said No), and supporters of the other three parties all thought it more likely to happen than not.

The Scottish Parliament will be given control of taxation and welfare

Yes: 55%
No: 18%
Don’t know: 26%

At first glance this seems perhaps the most surprising stat in the entire poll. Previously Scottish voters have been extremely sceptical of the promises of substantial extra devolution, and none of the UK parties have even hinted at any significant devolution of welfare.

Of course, the result could be explained by the fact that independence would provide said control, which would explain the 69% of SNP supporters who said Yes (along with 73% of Lib Dems, 53% of Tories and 51% of Labour voters). This is what happens when we do quick snap polls instead of taking our time to make sure there’s no ambiguity in the questions.

Your standard of living will significantly increase

Yes: 20%
No: 51%
Don’t know: 29%

Everyone’s battening down the hatches for a grim decade of austerity. SNP voters were the most optimistic (still just 26% Yes against 49% No), presumably because of the aforementioned belief in a better independent Scotland, with Labour’s the gloomiest (15 to 57).

The UK’s armed forces will be sent to fight in another foreign war

Yes: 59%
No: 12%
Don’t know: 29%

A nice depressing note to end on.

————————————————————————————————–

So that’s the next ten years through the eyes of Scots. Lots of UKIP MPs, no improvement to the standard of living and a privatised NHS in England. The only people who are noticeably optimistic about anything are those who think Scotland will be independent by then. Whichever side of the debate they’re on, the Scottish people don’t much fancy the future of the UK, with or without an “r” in front of it.

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    434 to “Stormy weather”

    1. Steve Bowers says:

      Bloody hell, get the Leonard Cohen out and pass me the razor blades. Sod it, think I’ll remain on the optimistic side of things

    2. Dr Ew says:

      Oh God, I’m depressed.

      Coldplay have a new album out.

    3. Greannach says:

      Neil Young could put it to music.

    4. David McCann says:

      Seems to me the more we tell the voters that vote No means Get Nothing, the more chance we get Yes to come out on top.
      Keep up the pressure.

    5. galamcennalath says:

      Nice to see those who contemplate Independence have a more optimistic view.

      Those who see a continuing Union have a pessimistic view for the future. Perhaps all they have to do to lift the much of the depression is decide to vote Yes!

    6. fairiefromtheearth says:

      Time to go listen to some Bob Marley his freedom songs always uplift me 😉

    7. galamcennalath says:

      Further thought. Perhaps health professionals should hand out Yes literature instead of anti-depressants.

    8. David McCann says:

      OT,
      With only 20 days to go, Im not optimistic that this worthy project will meet the target of £8000.
      Wingers, please give it your consideration.
      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotland-yet-post-production-and-distribution/x/2347796

    9. Dr Ew says:

      On a more serious note, we’ve been getting all discombobulated about polls recently. A very non-political FB friend sent me a link to a presentation of an Ipsos/MORI survey which contrasts UK-wide public perception of several issues (benefit fraud, immigration, crime, etc.) compared to actual official statistics.

      The link is: http://www.buzzfeed.com/danieldalton/things-the-british-public-are-completely-wrong-about

      If it’s accurate then the power of the Daily Mail et al to instil their relentless lies and fearmongering is pretty staggering. And Scots are not immune to this, as we well know.

      Fortunately, we have an alternative – let’s get the fuck out of it.

    10. Drunken Hobo says:

      My mum got this poll through Panelbase. She was somewhat confused by the last set of questions there, wondering whether she should answer with them based on her answer to “Scotland will become an independent country” or as things are now.

      I assumed that it would be based on her answer (and that’s how she eventually answered them) but it was perhaps a bit ambiguous & confusing for some people. Especially as one of the questions says “First Minister”, where if Scotland were independent it’d be “Prime Minister”.

    11. Juteman says:

      As Rangers were mentioned in this poll, not really OT.
      Did my ears deceive me, or did I just hear the news presenter say that the Scottish League has been paying BT Sport to show Rangers matches on the telly? Isn’t that arse for elbow?

    12. scottish_skier says:

      Scotland will become an independent country
      Yes: 35%
      No: 37%
      Don’t know: 28%

      I’ll take a stab here and suggest that Yes = Yes voters and No = No voters largely.

      And I don’t think it’s so curious that men and women are of largely the same opinion. In the end, in all probability, they will vote in largely the same way in September. That’s what happened in 2011 in the end; just took women a bit longer to start admitting to pollsters they planned to vote SNP.

    13. heedtracker says:

      BetterTogetherists say move to London for the good ukok life. London houses prices have already gone up by £80k this year so far. So its not all bad news for teamGB and its all down to Westminster, who always know what they’re doing.

    14. ronnie anderson says:

      Just a bit O/T.
      Scottish Institute of Chartered Accountants arent happy with John Swinneys Tax Reforms/ see Scottish Revenue Tax
      reforms. Scottish Parliament debate today, Stage 1 Primary tax avoidance legislation. Very little wriggle room to avoid paying tax in a Indy Scotland. Well done SG.

    15. Democracy Reborn says:

      Re tuition fees : there are no fees under this Scottish Govt. The Tories want fees, Clegg has lost all credibility by supporting them & Scot Labour talk of ‘something for nothing’ (Johann).

      We can grotesquely spend £100 billion+ on Trident nuclear weapons, but we cannot afford to give our children an education free of thousands of pounds of debt? What is even more galling is that the proponents of tuition fees benefited from paying no fees themselves.

      Any current student or someone hoping to go to uni/college, & thinking about voting No, needs to have their head examined.

    16. Geoff Huijer says:

      So the Unionist parties all think that tuition fees are a good thig then really. The question may not have said that but their answers certainly infer it.

      Unionist = elitism.

      Quelle surprise!

    17. Jamie Arriere says:

      I’m worried that a few of those who think Scotland will be independent within ten years, despite voting No (or abstaining) just now, are under the misapprehension that we’ll get another shot at this.

      It has to be made crystal clear that this referendum will be the only one we get in our lifetime, even if we vote in SNP governments for the next 25 years.

    18. cynicalHighlander says:

      With the likelihood of no LibDem MEPs after Thursday will focus some swithering voters.

    19. YESGUY says:

      Another poll Rev.

      And notice the YES = optimistic No = pessimistic .

      Ok. if the NO voters see the next ten years of crap why the hell do they not at least TRY and do something about it? Vote YES for change and No for more of the same . Why???? would you want to live a life of little hope ? Are we Scots so bloody dour that we can’t at least try for a better future ? For the sake of our kids and their kids.

      It pains me to say that we deserve nothing but contempt for allowing this to go on and on and on.

      I,m a 50 year old former soldier , disabled now and seeing the country i love , the country i swore an oath to protect , so divided it shames me. Never in the history of the world has a country fought AGAINST independence . To turn against each other and submit to a another country who serve their own first whilst claiming to be an equal .

      If the No vote wins on sept 18th . I will never be able to believe in Scotland again. The thought of my children or their children having to fight for independence when we have the opportunity now and fail shames me so much , i feel ill by it all.

      I will never forgive my countrymen/women for failing to take this chance. Even with the mountains of evidence in favor of indi , the lies, scares, smears and threats , which should have been the catalyst to bring us closer together. instead it has divided us .

      And the worst of these in every way is pro union Scots. Who fight the fight for Westminster against their own. I have a few words i could use but i’ll leave that to your imagination.

      And no bloody church or any amount of prayer will help. I will be disgusted. (strong i know but it’s the truth)

      I can fight for this one chance, but afterwards, it will be the next generations task , if they ever get the chance again.

    20. HandandShrimp says:

      Can I just say that I don’t find Cohen or Young depressing

      :/

    21. heedtracker says:

      “Any current student or someone hoping to go to uni/college, & thinking about voting No, needs to have their head examined.”

      Thing is, school fees at Scottish private schools start at about £25k per year so the £9,000 a year uni fees don’t mean much to a lot of wealthy Scotland. Maybe its time for means testing. If you can afford private school you can afford private university and private schools should be stripped of their tax free charity status.

      All of which explains why Scottish private schools are not so keen on any change at all anywhere:D

    22. Stuart Black says:

      Neil Young can be very uplifting at times, HaS. 😉

    23. Geoff Huijer says:

      @YESGUY

      Well said, my sentiments exactly – I’d like to shake your hand.

    24. Camz says:

      Going to sleep until my name changes to Rip-Van-Camz. Wake me up when it’s all over.

    25. Sonja Cameron says:

      The Smiths. The Smiths are best. Music to slit your wrists to.

    26. Dick Gaughan says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      Can I just say that I don’t find Cohen or Young depressing

      They can do quite a lot for that these days.

      🙂

    27. Democracy Reborn says:

      @heedtracker

      Only about 1 in 20 children in Scotland attend private schools (Scotsman, 25/9/13).

      I’m more interested in the other 95% who don’t.

    28. Jim Thomson says:

      @ronnie anderson 6:24

      are you saying that in an indy Ecosse we wouldn’t need accountants?

      That’ll save me a few bob every year 🙂

    29. Kirsty says:

      Yesguy,

      Well said, I agree with every word. The only other thing I’d add is how ashamed those who don’t even care about it either way make me.

      So many people just aren’t interested and can’t even be bothered to do any research or inform themselves of the facts. That’s despicable in my view.

    30. Jim Thomson says:

      @Dick Gaughan 7:35

      you haven’t been playing with your lithium dose again have you Dick? :-/

    31. heedtracker says:

      Only about 1 in 20 children in Scotland attend private schools (Scotsman, 25/9/13).

      Sure but how many private school pupils go to uni in comparison to state school pupils, is the point here.

    32. scottish_skier says:

      Thing is, school fees at Scottish private schools start at about £25k per year so the £9,000 a year uni fees don’t mean much to a lot of wealthy Scotland.

      True, but then those that pay the most tax (those that earn more) are paying for other people’s kids to go to uni. Nice to thank them by letting their kids go to uni for free too.

      If this doesn’t happen, they’ll be paying for their own kids and other people’s kids to go to uni and this will likely make them feel cheesed off so want to vote Tory / pay less tax. In fact means testing is specifically designed to destroy the welfare state / society by pissing off people who earn more. It’s why Labour (right) think it’s a good idea and the SNP (centre to slightly left) don’t.

      As far as I’m concerned, those earning quite a lot should get all the universal benefits everyone else does. It’s the least society can do as thanks for the tax they pay.

    33. Meindevon says:

      Ah Neil Young, Glasgow Apollo 197…… Well a while back!

      Bet he would vote yes!

    34. heedtracker says:

      @ scottish_skier, the point is that the threat of £9k tuition fees may not carry as much weight as logic dictates considering the current dis/proportion of private school students in uni.

      Plus if your doing a good engineering degree, medicine or dentistry say, you’re getting a bargain at £9k and school pupils know that.

    35. HandandShrimp says:

      Dick

      I dunno, Leonard makes me smile…I haven’t sought help…yet.

      Scottish Skier

      Yes, I never really understood Johann’s “something for nothing” nonsense. Clearly those paying the most tax are the very ones she is accusing of getting something for nothing. Where does she draw the line with her means testing? State schools?, A heart operation? Driving on the roads? It was a bloody silly speech and I am not surprised Labour have drawn a veil over it. The Tories and Tax Payers Alliance use exactly the same expression but of course they are talking about the poor who pay less taxes (we all pay at least some because of VAT) obtaining a net benefit from the system. To stray into that language was political lunacy.

    36. David Briggs says:

      ‘As far as I’m concerned, those earning quite a lot should get all the universal benefits everyone else does. It’s the least society can do as thanks for the tax they pay’.

      As long as they’re paying their whack I wouldn’t disagree with you.

      The charitable status of public school education needs removed though. The children of the rich going to these schools have an unfair advantage over kids going to a comprehensive

    37. ronnie anderson says:

      @Jim Thomson 7.44 Naw Jim its just that their creative tax avoidance scheme,s are ffukered. lol

    38. galamcennalath says:

      Meindevon says:
      Ah Neil Young, Glasgow Apollo 197…… Well a while back!
      Bet he would vote yes!

      1976 🙂

      You got the rest of the union
      to help you along
      What’s going wrong?

      Alabama, not Scotland!

    39. Democracy Reborn says:

      heedtracker:-

      Just over 20% of students at the ‘ancient’ universities (Glasgow, E’burgh, St Andrews, Aberdeen) are private school-educated. For the remaining universities it’s under 10%.

      The real point is that when you start to “means test”, it invariably means a contribution from those whose parents are on very modest incomes. Just look south of the border for the reality of fees : around £27K debt for a 3-year degree course. In Scotland, an honours degree is 4 years. And remember, students also separately have to take out student loans to pay for maintenance.

    40. Graeme Doig says:

      Just been checking out Bella Caledonia.
      Article entitled “The Pessimist’s Crystal Ball” contains a comment which includes footage of Duncan Hamilton debating (i think at Glasgow Unjversity)
      It’s worth a look. Cheered me up.

      Apologies for lack of fancy ‘linky’ stuff you all seem to be able to manage

    41. Clootie says:

      I do worry about my fellow Scots. What nation (region!) would have any doubt about the opportunity on offer.

      I’m sure a researcher could explain how we have been conditioned to accept our lot and be grateful for the crumbs from the table. (Stockholm syndrome)

      I’ve had enough. I want a YES vote and if we do not get a majority I’ll be arguing on the 19th. for a referendum. The problem being it will be several times harder to get one.

      Will we be stupid enough to provide Westminster MP’s with the gift phrase – ” …the Scottish people rejected seperation, the matter is settled!”

    42. galamcennalath says:

      I get the impression nowhere in the EU has fees like England, for its own citizens.

      http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees

      Scottish Universities do charge English level fees to non-EU students.

    43. Defo says:

      A vision of the (near) future.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27492711

      How many of those faces are MI5 plants, or are they savvy enough to keep out of shot ?
      This polling data is mightily encouraging. Now to educate a large proportion of the nation in time…

    44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I’ll take a stab here and suggest that Yes = Yes voters and No = No voters largely.”

      Largely, yeah. 80% of Yes voters said Yes, 72% of No voters said No, most of the others Don’t Know.

    45. HenBroon says:

      Polls polls…Kirsty, some people are in a state of apathy, not just some but over 60% of us when it comes to politics. Some local elections attract just 20% of voters. The reason being that life is such a daily grind making ends meet and fighting to stay afloat, the words of politicians of all parties are just a pain in the arse to those who do not vote. The fine words and promises made in TV studios are quickly dispensed with as soon as the Politicos fat arses are once more polishing the benches and the flow of tax payers cash gushes like a torrent in to their accounts.

      It is to be hoped that the Yes campaign will manage to inspire sufficient numbers of independent minded Scottish voters to turn out on the day and tick the Yes box. At the moment the trend looks good.

      I remember after the 2007 election that shook the UK as the SNP squeezed in to power, Alex Salmond said that they knew after 6pm that it was going to be good for the SNP, as the workers voted on the way home or got home and went out to vote. It is these people who will carry the day for Yes.And it is the same people who will build Scotland in to the powerhouse we all know it can be.

    46. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Especially as one of the questions says “First Minister”, where if Scotland were independent it’d be “Prime Minister”.”

      Says who?

    47. Macart says:

      Pretty clear pattern.

      What are we waiting for? Vote yes avoid years of therapy. 😉

    48. David Smith says:

      YESGUY and Geoff. I’m right with you. Word for word.
      Also; regarding the issue of fees. Is it only in the Anglophone world that a good education is considered a privilege rather than a right? It seems that the civilised nations of the world largely agree to differ and view it as an investment in their own future. Doesn’t it speak volumes about the Atlanticist view of the world?

    49. JimnArlene says:

      Well then, I’m off to buy shares in War Mongering Bastsards dot con, then I’ll mibby get a mention on a rich list.

    50. heedtracker says:

      @ Democracy Reborn, your ignoring or leaving out the effects of deprivation on levels of uni entrance Highers in Scotland, which are horrendous. Its a huge problem and its got huge solutions and one of them is the fact that inequality can be tackled through taxation, or it cant. Maybe we’ll find out one day.

    51. muttley79 says:

      Why do No voters think the NHS in Scotland is safe in the event of a No vote? Do they seriously think that our block grant is not going to be severely reduced if we vote No? Is this a denial thing or what?

    52. YESGUY says:

      Had wee rant there and have to admit feeling a little “frail” to day and popped over to Bella for a wee peek and saw a video of Duncan Hamilton at Glasgow Uni. Now there is a lad with a bit of fight in him . Please have a wee look in if you haven;t seen this before. He gives words to my feelings exactly . and i felt a whole lot better after watching . 8mins and my smiles back on.

      Sorry if the rant was over the top but looking at the comments over the last few days has been frustrating as hell . Now theres a fact YES voters are easily the most frustrated .

      Its going to be a long few months thats for sure but i am not alone

    53. Dr Ew says:

      Scotland to become independent in the next 10 years?
      35% Yes, 37% No, 28% DK.

      I guess you’d have got identical responses to “the next 2 years”. Looks like a fairly close correlation to present voting intentions this September, including with that (crucial) mass of Don’t Knows.

      The point is we will never have a better moment to make our choice how and when WE want. An unreformed UK will be pretty much ruined beyond repair in another 10 years (with lack of investment, another banking bailout, even greater inequality) and will take us down with it. People may then clamour for another referendum, but we will be in a far weaker position economically and politically, not least because we’d be outside the EU with less oil reserves to invest in our future.

      A Free Scotland will precipitate a political earthquake in the rUK. Really, the only way we can genuinely help ordinary people there is to create that opportunity by taking OUR opportunity now – for their sakes as much as our own.

    54. galamcennalath says:

      muttley79 says:
      Do they seriously think that our block grant is not going to be severely reduced if we vote No?

      The consequencies of a No vote should scare everyone.

      Potential No voters need this made clear to them!

    55. Graeme Doig says:

      Yes Guy

      Daily rant is compulsory in my house. Wife putting up with it well so far.

      Duncan Hamilton – very impressive

    56. Brotyboy says:

      O/T

      I have a couple of spare tickets for the Five Million Questions In Conversation with Alistair Darling at Dundee University on Thursday 22nd at 6pm if anyone wants them.

    57. Democracy Reborn says:

      heedtracker @ 8.38pm

      Entirely agree with you. But that’s a different issue from paying fees once you’re at uni : you’re talking about tackling deprivation for kids from poor/modest backgrounds in order that they can improve their qualifications & get into uni. Those kids, & their parents, have enough to overcome without the prospect of £30K debt at the end of a degree course.

      Like others on here, I don’t subscribe to the Anglo-American notion that a higher education is something you should have to pay for. It’s an investment in the skills & wealth of your nation’s future. And if that means a minority of children with ‘wealthy’ parents get a free education, I don’t have a problem with it if it means the vast majority benefit.

    58. Craig says:

      There are many No voters happy to remain in the Union but preferring good governance in Scotland by an SNP government despite having very limited powers.

      I think the SNP should drop a bomb shell in June and say that in the event of a No vote, the SNP will not contest any elections for a generation.

      That will put the fear of god into those complacent no voters or non-voters.

    59. That looks like the lyrics to a folk song in the making. Needs only a smattering of deid fishermen for authenticity. Cheer yourself up with some Vote Nob Orders spoofs. Logic’s Rock: Wag The Nob.

      http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/wag-nob.html

    60. X_Sticks says:

      @YESGUY

      If that was a rant then rant on my friend. I think you summed up the feelings of many of us quite succinctly.

      We should not allow our frustration to get the better of us. It will get worse as the time gets nearer and we get closer to the prize.

      When it gets too much to bear, just think how much worse it is for those on the No side. They are confronted by a growing tsunami that THEY KNOW is going to sweep them away. They will shriek and squeal and lie aver more shrilly right up until September.

      Stay calm and smile and laugh at them. It really fucks with their heads.

      Graeme – thanks for the heads up on the Bella article:
      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/05/20/the-pessimists-crystal-ball/

      The Duncan Hamilton vid is in the comments courtesy of Alba4eva 😀

    61. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      “I think the SNP should drop a bomb shell in June and say that in the event of a No vote, the SNP will not contest any elections for a generation.”

      wow, i was thinking similar the other night except i was thinking salmond and sturgeon stating they will step down from politics if a no vote. your idea of the whole snp party stepping down is better. i think its a winner.

    62. Paula Rose says:

      Hang on darlings I’m selling independence on the idea that with a Yes vote the SNP will cease to be!!!

    63. Defo says:

      As reality slowly dawns for the MSM….
      When did you start to sense that the issue of Englishness was starting to return to the agenda?

      “I think it might go back to Scotland playing England in the 1996 European Championships. You can buy St George’s Day cards now; you couldn’t do that 20 years ago.”

      “And I do think Scottish and Welsh devolution have played a part. It’s like looking over the garden fence, isn’t it? Your neighbour builds a patio, and you see them sitting out on it, having drinks, and you think, ‘Oh – they’re getting a benefit from that. Maybe I should have a patio.’ And that’s what we’re seeing from devolution.” Billy Bragg

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/20/goodnight-britain-rethinking-england-future-vision

      Is patriotism the same thing as nationalistic pride & ambition?

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/20/england-identity-crisis-english-euro-scottish-elections-ukip-patriotism

    64. cynicalHighlander says:

      Or only contest council ones as Westminster is planning to make Holyrood a talking shop.

    65. HandandShrimp says:

      O/T

      Has anybody read this.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/20/scotland-split-progressive-ideals-douglas-alexander-church

      What the hell is progressive about watching the Tory/UKIP nexus dragging the UK to the right. I really take umbrage at Alexander over this. He is in effect saying that if you vote Yes you are a Nazi. Intellectually dishonest pro George Bush sod that he is.

    66. call me dave says:

      Aye! Dougie speaking for a NO at the Church of Scotland assembly today.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27470336

    67. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      “Hang on darlings I’m selling independence on the idea that with a Yes vote the SNP will cease to be!!!”

      the thought of the snp not there to stand up for scotland, leaving it to lamont is a fearful prospect alright.

    68. Paula Rose says:

      Findlay darling (a) we have a green party (b) we will have lots of other parties (c) I want to live in a country that stops putting ‘Scottish’ in front of stuff – there will be NO NEED – where is the French this that and the other?

    69. Defo says:

      I think that a few lowish blows are needed.

      If wossers and yesers were to ask Darling & co. about their voting record on suchlike as Iraq at public meetings, then it wouldn’t half land blows. The earlier the better. What DID cabinet members know about renditions ?
      And the point being, that a Holyrood government wouldn’t lead us into committing warcrimes, and murder (not always by proxy). In OUR fecking name.

      http://www.britisharmykillings.org.uk/page/126/MPs-who-voted-for-war-with-Iraq

      Watching Flipper explode in an rage, would make my referendum. (After a Yes landslide obvs)

    70. X_Sticks says:

      Come on people, let’s show some of that legendary Wings generosity for Scottish Independence Live Events.

      Our very own Thistle is looking to raise funds for better live streams, finance more indy videos, more promotional materials and general running costs.

      Independence Live has given us all the excellent broadcasts with Tariq Ali, Elaine c Smith Jim Sillars, Jeanne Freeman, Tommy Sheridan, Dennis Canavan, Ivan McKee, Lesley Riddoch, AND they have broadcast from the FRIENDS OF WINGS events to allow us all to join in even if we can’t be there. http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive What more could you want?

      Let’s dig deep and get them over the line. If we can do 50k in a day we can surely do this in a couple of hours!

      http://tinyurl.com/olt48ue

    71. Paula Rose says:

      In our country we will be at home – Scottish whatever will be a thing of the past, our labour party, idiot party whatever – we will be at home.

    72. Grouse Beater says:

      If the No vote wins on sept 18th I will never be able to believe in Scotland again. The thought of my children or their children having to fight for independence when we have the opportunity now and fail shames me so much I feel ill by it all.

      I have heard similar sentiment expressed by others.

      A decisive No vote will crush the soul.

    73. Stuart Black says:

      Come on folks, let’s show some support for Thistle here, we can surely do better than this?

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events#pledges

    74. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      “where is the French this that and the other?”

      bread, toast, kissing, connection, lessons, and saunders.

    75. Paula Rose says:

      Grouse Beater honey – we are going to win this laddie now buck up and smell the coffee.

    76. Liquid Lenny says:

      Craig

      Yup I have had that argument from Naysayers, cant seem to get through to them that its not going to be the status quo if we vote no.

      Don’t think its an option for the SNP to stand down en masse post a no vote. But to be honest I would like to see it. Because if we are stupid enough to Vote no we deserve all we get.

    77. Graeme Doig says:

      BT now using scatter gun approach.
      Just went on You Tube and was accosted by their pish in an advert.
      Someone could have warned me.

    78. Paula Rose says:

      Findlay dear – my point is that in our country we will not need to use “scottish” before anything, because that will be a given.

    79. Stuart Black says:

      Ah, X_Sticks, beat me to it, good man. 🙂

    80. Hugh Wallace says:

      @Democracy Reborn 6:26pm

      What is even more galling is that the proponents of tuition fees benefited from paying no fees themselves.

      Most of the proponents of tuition fees would have had a grant and probably never had a student load. I first went to uni 21 years & had one of the last grants and first student loans and most politicians are older than me.

      http://arewebettertogetherscotland.wordpress.com/

    81. Paula Rose says:

      Gosh Graeme – did you have an umbrella?

    82. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      aken, i was being lighthearted.

    83. X_Sticks says:

      Stuart Black says:

      “beat me to it”

      Only just Stuart 😉

    84. Grouse Beater says:

      Grouse Beater honey

      I’m the guy consistently (since late last year) predicting a win by 63% of the vcoting electorate.

      My last post doesn’t say anything more than I’ve heard others express understandable dismay should the vote be lost by a mile or a whisker – and let’s not forget, they are people voting Yes. To my mind any thought of a near win is a spur to greater effort. Neverthless, we should feel empathy for the elderly who have waiting – or fought – almost all their life for this moment. Their anxiety is very natural.

    85. Paula Rose says:

      @ Grouse Beater – ssh don’t frighten the gee-gees xx

    86. X_Sticks says:

      Rev Stu just tweeting 1.5million unique viewers mark hit last week – SO CAN YOU ALL DONATE TO Scottish Independence Live Events now and we’ll be done in about 20 minutes!!

      http://tinyurl.com/olt48ue

    87. Grouse Beater says:

      ssh don’t frighten the gee-gees

      Scottish Clydesdales are not know for spooking easily.

    88. Croompenstein says:

      @Findlay Farquaharson – letters!

    89. Paula Rose says:

      I love a big shire.

    90. Graeme Doig says:

      Paula Rose

      No i did not. Thanks for your concern.

      Developing a tough skin wi all this though

      Defeat is unthinkable

    91. Paula Rose says:

      Stop using language used by the rulers – talk about opportunity, future, talent – let us reclaim the languages we speak in Scotland and share them with each other.

    92. Grouse Beater says:

      Grame – Stop using language used by the rulers

      Eh?

      Check if you’re wearing two left shoes, “Paula.” You keep tripping over your own posts.

    93. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Graeme
      Daily rant is compulsory in my house. Wife putting up with it well so far.

      Chuckle. I know what you mean!
      But we have to keep our political muscles well exercised.

    94. Paula Rose says:

      Syntax dear.

    95. X_Sticks says:

      @Paula

      If they start to tax sin I’m screwed!

    96. Paula Rose says:

      X whips xxx : – )

    97. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just back from SSP branch meeting in Irvine, and heard some really worrying news about an Orange parade which went down the Main Street last Saturday.

      It seems to have been a substantial, but unexpected parade, and each band paused directly outside the ‘Yes Scotland’ shop for a minute or more, giving it laldy with the drums etc. The regular SSP stall planned for the day was abandoned.

      I don’t have any images, only first-hand testimony.

      Anyone else hear anything about this?

    98. John grant says:

      Sorry slightly it but out canvassing tonight for euro election but also asking the Indy question got quite a few no’s but by god are they soft , the glue holding no Scotland , the media. , and btw SNP will have three meps

    99. Grouse Beater says:

      Syntax dear

      It’s pitch perfect.

      “Syntax dear” doesn’t constitute a grammatical sentence with or without the missing comma.

      @Ian
      Orange Parade in Main Street, Irvine.

      Was it a spontaneous event, without official approval? Making a loud noise outside the Yes office is seriously petty to me, a tactic bound to alienate.

    100. Lynn Blair says:

      @Sonja Cameron

      The Smiths are fabulous!

      ‘Please, please, please ….let me get what I want this time …’ :-))

    101. Paula Rose says:

      Grouse Beater – just pitching stuff – the light programme that intersperses you big boys.

    102. Grouse Beater says:

      @Ian

      I’m beginning to think both Orange Lodge and Ukip annoying spoilers. Can’t think why any Scottish-based “churnalist” would feel obliged to interview a Ukip candidate in until they win a seat in Scotland.

    103. X_Sticks says:

      Grouse Beater says:

      “a tactic bound to alienate.”

      A tactic meant to intimidate, more like.

    104. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      It seems there was no-one lining the street, applauding them, as would be expected for anything ‘official’.

      I really don’t know much more, but the person who told me is a local business owner, long-time resident, and has never seen anything like it, seemed genuinely worried.

      (If the local press covered it then I suppose it would be the Irvine Herald, but not sure which day that’s published.)

    105. Twenty14 says:

      @Ian Brotherhood – not my neck of the woods but I suggest when any of this happens we take out our phones and collect videos ( discreetly if required )then post on youtube to let everyone one know what happening out there

    106. Grouse Beater says:

      @X_Sticks
      A tactic meant to intimidate, more like.

      Yes, agreed; that too. I was thinking in terms of those observing the incident, or those like me reading about it.

    107. Twenty14 says:

      we’ve still got a long way to go – so be prepared for the worst case scenario as it heads our way…….then smile

    108. Training Day says:

      O/T

      A new low for ‘Scotland’ Tonight. George Lyon is a man who has somehow been elected to office.

      Utterly inane drivel all round though.

    109. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian
      I really don’t know much more, but the person who told me is a local business owner, long-time resident, and has never seen anything like it, seemed genuinely worried.

      Hmmm. I can’t think what the OL hopes to achieve?

      In my time in NI I think I failed to convince people like that that England had absolutely no interest in them.
      I kept asking them what they were fighting for when it ought to be clear dear old Blighty didn’t give a fig. I never got a reasonable answer. It was all febrile rhetoric.

    110. Defo says:

      @ Lynn Blair re. the Smiths. For the ‘I’m alright No’s’, it has to be..
      “Why pamper life’s complexity, When the leather runs smooth on the passenger’s seat?”
      Charming men ? More like snake oil salesmen !

    111. hetty says:

      On the topic of tuition fees, I can hardly contain myself when I hear people condoning them when they have enjoyed totally free higher education and reaped the benefits of not having massive debts as a result. And the tories have already sold on some student loans to debt companies (who are adding interest to that debt) and are set to do so with student fees at some point make no bones. With an added student loan this means someone leaving uni with at least 33k debt in England.

      With low or no wages it is not good, they are being had and it will happen here with a no because 4billion reduction in our pocket money will not pay for free uni places.

      As for private education, rich establishments for the rich with charitable status, even lottery funded facilities and state of the art buildings, low class numbers, and a ready ticket to a uni place and well paid job at the end, it couldn’t be more unequal if we just declared that slavery is legal.co.uk. Totally and utterly sickening.

    112. dennis mclaughlin says:

      i’m with Steve Bowers on this one…………..pass the SOMA please!.

    113. bookie from hell says:

      dougie Alexander opens up with . “friends” from the pulpit

      reminds me of FOX NEWS and FRIENDS

    114. Lynn Blair says:

      @Defo

      Apologies. I can’t help it. I’ve got a thing for whining and gladioli….;)

    115. X_Sticks says:

      Lynn Blair says:

      “I’ve got a thing for whining and gladioli”

      Have you met Paula Rose, yet Lynn? 😉

    116. Lynn Blair says:

      Does she have a quiff too????

    117. Thepnr says:

      Re Orange Lodge

      There was also a small march I saw while in Glasgow on Saturday for the cup final coming down Candleriggs towards the Trongate about 13:00.

      The police were with them maybe around 500, walking back with the missus from Parkhead through Bridgeton after the game, the bands were giving it laldy in a couple of bars.

    118. HandandShrimp says:

      heedtracker

      I watched that video. I’ve never actually seen one of these things before….I think I will stick with Cohen and Young. It isn’t exactly music is it? more a fancy dress parade…although the accordion band looked fun, if a tad out of place.

    119. X_Sticks says:

      Lynn Blair says:

      “Does she have a quiff too????”

      Over to you Paula….

    120. Alfresco Dent says:

      Sorry to go o/t Stu but just a heads-up to remind people that the great sage Darling is at Dundee Uni this Thursday at 18:00. I might be tempted to ask him if he’s comfortable with all the lies he’s telling his fellow countrymen.

      Be there or be square.

    121. Thepnr says:

      My mistake, it was the High St. not Candleriggs.

    122. colin young says:

      Just put a YES poster up on my kitchen window which faces the street so hopefully nothing untoward happens as Ardrossan has orange marches which pass by my house.
      A little bit worried but worth the risk.

    123. Grouse Beater says:

      Nana

      stormy weather ahead for bbc scotland

      They deserve it; wrote of it on my blog, “BBC be Damned,” CBI membership a blatant betrayal of their Charter – BBC Enterprises the excuse – and proof positive BBC Scotland is anything but neutral on the question of Scotland’s ambitions.

    124. StevieMcB says:

      Band parade
      Very military, d’ye think they are trying to intimidate people by wearing ill fitting uniforms. 🙂

    125. Nana Smith says:

      @Grouse Beater

      I’ve come close to breaking the tv so many times over the last 6 months.The air is pretty blue in this house lately!

    126. Defo says:

      @ Lynn Blair, just to clarify, are the gladioli anything to do with the whips you speak of ? And who’s to do the whining ?
      Morrisey gigs can occasionally feel similar to what I expect religion to be like. Weird.

      How about “we are the last truly British people you wouldn’t want to know” from National front disco ?

    127. liz says:

      Just read those v interesting articles in the guardian posted re English identity.

      I think we should be proud of ourselves because we, the Scots, are the ones who are pushing this agenda for change,

      For too long people in the whole of the UK have been struggling to be heard.

      I swing between being positive about a Yes and distraught about a No but I now think that the force for change has been unleashed and will not be stopped.

      Interestingly John Harris does believe there will be more powers if No – I still don’t think so.

    128. heedtracker says:

      @ HandandShrimp, maybe 200 people in total for the bands marching in Irvine. It looks heavily policed but hardly anyone watching from the pavement. I think the buses that follow each band is the bus they came in too, which is nice.

    129. stonefree says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      The Irvine Herald is publisher on wednesday as is the Irvine Times,
      But they are so up Brian Donohoe’s backside unless they’ve changed

    130. Grouse Beater says:

      Nana

      The air is pretty blue in this house lately!

      Blue is a good colour of air to breathe!

    131. Thepnr says:

      Unfortunately for so long most English born people have believed that England is the UK and the rest have never had a second thought.

      Their eyes have been opened, only gradually since Devolution but now the spotlight shines bright on Independence. I truly believe the average Brit would accept Independence for Scotland if they voted for it as a done done deal and let’s move on.

      It’s the bloody media that is poisoning their minds, just has it has done for decades with the subsidy crap. There will have to be some kind of reconciliation after a Yes vote because I also believe the rUK media will be even worse in stirring up discontent with their readers. Only because it will sell papers.

      After we vote Yes, we take time, take stock and deal with whatever they throw our way. I trust the sensible people in rUK to see why we voted Yes and that they will also demand a different type of government from that polluting our lives now.

    132. Defo says:

      A present from Auntie, no less. It’s long overdue, and timely reminder of the early years union dividend.
      Ethnic cleansing, bordering on genocide.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pmhn9/is-blath-an-fhuilthe-blood-is-strong-episode-1

    133. Papadox says:

      During my working life I spent much time in south of England and you very seldom heard the word Britain it was always England. Britain was only used if they were talking about Wales or Scotland, and only after a wee reminder. Ireland was Ireland North or South.

      That’s why they are being wound up by the MSM, because they believe we are one of their provinces that’s what they have been lead to believe.

    134. mr thms says:

      It would be better for referendum momentum if the sixth seat did not go to one of the Unionist parties.. On this occasion, as a one off, Socialists and Greens should vote tactically for the SNP. In an independent Scotland there will be many opportunities to vote for the Socialist and Green MEP candidates.

    135. X_Sticks says:

      Only £20 needed to get Thistle up to the £500 mark in his fundraiser. I thought we’d have it sorted by now 🙁

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events#pledges

      Where’s all that 1.5million of you?

      Last plug for tonight, Zebedee’s nagging….:)

    136. Defo says:

      They just can’t keep it shut.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27495097

      CBI. New talking head, same old guff.
      Unauthorised signatory my arse.

    137. kininvie says:

      O/T Anyone who is fed up with the facile BTL or Vote NOB stuff and who wants to engage in intelligent debate with someone (pro-union) who is thinking it through, might take a look at:

      http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/the-case-in-summary.html

    138. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Kininvie

      Interesting blog, but I can’t get my head around his/her comment that we already have self determination, given that we choose to vote on indy.

      The fact that we needed Westminster’s approval to hold the referendum kind of negates that argument … no ?

    139. James Dow says:

      Ref,Alfresco Dent
      Alistair Darling was born in England
      and has an English father.
      His mother has a Scottish name so
      possibly Scottish.

    140. Craig says:

      Findlay Farquaharson, cynicalHighlander & Liquid Lenny,

      I think, ironically, one of the reasons for No still apparently holding strong is the competence of the SNP government.

      The SNP government have done extremely well under the circumstances and No voters who voted for it have started taking it for granted. They don’t realise what Westminster will do against Scotland in the event of a No vote.

      If a majority votes No, we will have been proven to be ‘too stupid’ and the laughing stock of the world.

      The SNP itself would be thoroughly demoralised and it would be totally unfair for it to continue doing the hard work for a majority which voted No.

      Let the unionist politicians Lamont, Davidson & Rennie deliver their jam to the majority who believed their false promises.

      It would be very hard for us Yes voters, but that would be our best chance for another referendum within 10 years if not sooner, which we would win with an overwhelming majority.

      Having said that, I believe democratically there will be a Yes vote, but have grave worries that the British establishment will prevent it from prevailing, either by black ops before the referendum, or if those fail, by rigging the vote.

      When did the British establishment ever let a colony become independent without showing its brutality?

    141. bunter says:

      I see Cridland of the CBI has ditched his neutrality this morning with another warning over a CU.

      Does the BBC, who are a member, agree with this? Have they been consulted.

    142. bunter says:

      One day to the Euro elections and Salmond asks that we stop UKIP from making inroads to Scotland.

      Whether you are a SNP voter or not, I think it would be a good thing to stop UKIP in their tracks, if only that we can point to our vile media that yes, we are different up here and we have a different outlook. I am sure that a shout will go out to unionists to tactically vote for UKIP though.

      We can use the reach of social media to remind folks of what UKIP stand for and why they should not vote for them.

    143. Caroline Corfield says:

      Though I appreciate where the sentiment comes from and in moments of utter frustration I find myself saying the same things, it would be counter productive for the SNP to withdraw from politics and leave the Scottish electorate with the consequences of a No vote. Because they are not just politicians, they are the goodies, the white hats. They are real people not stereotypical troughing cynical lying career politicians, and only that kind of politicians would threaten such dummy spitting things as to not field candidates.

      It has always been a feature of the SNP even in their party political broadcasts that they treat the electorate as grown up individuals, and not an amorphous rosette orientated mass.

      The white hats never give up, they go on against the odds, they forgive people who are driven by fear to make the wrong decisions, and crucially they win in the end.

      This is one of the best times for a referendum and a Yes vote, but it will not be the only time.

    144. Grouse Beater says:

      Kininvie
      who wants to engage in intelligent debate with someone (pro-union)

      It’s hardly an “intelligent” debate merely because an opponent can string a sentence together.

    145. Ken500 says:

      Fees for private schools start at £6000/8000 a year. The parents also pay tax to fund all education. Private schools are Charities (don’t pay tax on profits?), but to obtain that status have to pay back. i.e. some award busaries to (talented poor) pupils. Michael Gove? In some cases 25% of pupils.

      Oxbridge gets public funding 2000/1 of most other Universities. The most talented, able students go to other Universities. Student loans are means tested on a sliding scale. Students of households of average earnings (£42,000 – both parents – £21,000 or other combination) only get £1000 student loan. Household support is needed for University education. Without household support it is difficult for some straight ‘A’ students to go to University. (Not a ‘something for nothing society’).

      The recent increase in tuition fees in the rest of the UK – £6Billion of which 1/2 will never be paid back, in (student) loans, just increased expensive bureaucracy. The £6Billion was borrowed by Westminster. An increase on the gov debt which had to be funded by interest payments. Increasing the debt etc. Irresponsibly sold on to private Loan companies which increases the debt, despite assurances. Student Loans in the rest of the UK will be the next Banking crisis.

      Scottish taxpayers are still paying the full cost to educate students from elsewhere. The equivalent of one University.A higher no of places should be taken by students in Scotland or the monies could be better spent on (important) early years education or increased support for underfunded straight ‘A’ students. Or college places as a stepping stone to further education or Uni, including P/T courses which are important for women, disabled students and mature students, who can work as they study.

    146. Ken500 says:

      The reported divide between women and men voters looks like propaganda, as many have suspected. Women too feart? Not likely.

    147. bunter says:

      Daily Rancid has 4 page pullout on ”how to burst the Farage balloon”.

      I wont expect it to suggest voting SNP though!

    148. Where do they buy the fertiliser that allows the “Don`t Knows to grow” and flourish under the parapet.

      28 per cent as ” Don`t Knows” – is frightening.

      On the streets, I have yet to meet anyone who professes to be a “don`t know.”

      Any clues to their terminal stupidity after all these years.

      I have yet to meet one Scot who doesn`t have an opinion on anything and everything.

    149. Alex Scott says:

      I agree with Caroline. In the event of a No result, there will be opportunities to do this all over again.

      Like some of you, I also have lived in the SE of England for most of my adult life. However as a supporter of independence since 1967, I eagerly await the result in September.

      Unlike Sir Sean, I’m not so sure that I will see an independent Scotland in my lifetime. My reasons for this, are that the gloves have yet to be taken off.

      Just look at the treatment of UKIP at the moment. Organised opposition of a very dubious kind is present at every major meeting that they have. The purpose is clear, it is to stage manage disharmony, that will be eagerly reported on, and will turn wavering voters against UKIP.

      When the time comes they will be sent north, and will target the SNP. They will create the managed situations of disorder for our so called free press, to gleefully comment on.

      So much for democracy.

      I really want to see a Yes vote in September, but equally realise that as the dirty tactics commence, the voters may be pulled away from voting Yes because of fear.

      So, you end up with (and let’s make this simple)

      52% N0 and 48% Yes.

      This will mean that just slightly less than half of the population want separation, whilst slightly more that half the population will want all mechanisms dismantled to stop it ever happening again.

      This will cause great disharmony, and regardless of HM the Queen, and the wishes of Margo, the Scottish people may enter a troublesome period in their history.

      That is why Scottish Labour as so wrong to put Party and ideology, before the right of the Scottish people to have clear, reasoned, and logical discussion, on this very important matter.

    150. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @heedtracker (11.00 pm) –

      Yeah, that’s it. Tallies with the description I was given. Notice the lengthy gaps between the bands.

      The ‘Yes’ shop is in an old optician’s which is just beyond the line of trees visible at the vanishing point of the road. If the first bands did stop for a minute, that explains the gaps – if the police sussed what was happening and stopped them doing it? that would explain the gaps shortening.

      I counted fifteen bands in all.

    151. Does – “Don`t Know” – translate as “DON`T CARE”.

      1999 – 2014. What have we been teaching children who are/will be 15 years old since Holyrood was re-instated.

      We will have 19 year olds voting in Sept. who have been taught since they started school 14 years ago, entirely under the auspices of Holyrood.

      When Scots,( not necessarily 16-19.) do not know the few Powers held at Holyrood versus “Reserved Powers at Westminster”, we have a problem with only 4 months left to pull them up to speed.

      None of them can claim to be uninformed if they were reading WoS.

    152. caz-m says:

      BBC Scotland headlines,

      Sir Mike Rake became president of the CBI in June 2013. He is also chairman of BT Group.

      “It is difficult to see how independence would be better for investment and jobs,” he will say.

      He will remind Scotland tonight at their annual London dinner of just how wee, stupid and poor we are.
      No doubt they will all have a right good laugh at the thought of Scotland becoming an Independent Nation.

      I hope this guy reminds you of how much that you actually pay for your BT landline rental.

      I got rid of my BT landline over a year ago. It saves me about £250 a year on line rental.

      Do you really need your landline phone? Most people use mobiles phones now.

      You are actually paying this guy through two different organisations. You are paying him through your BBC License Fee, because BBC Scotland are members of the CBI and also through your BT landline rental and phone bills.

      Cancel your BT landline and save yourself a fortune.

    153. Onwards says:

      There might be a good majority in those who say we will keep the pound, but the number unsure or who think we will have to join the euro still amounts to a substantial number of voters.
      Important when some of the polls are pretty close.

      Perhaps the SNP need to make the plan B crystal clear – that we will be using the pound anyway.
      The debate should be about how much debt we will save if we are using it ‘unofficially’

    154. bigGpolmont says:

      O/T I know but Just sent gms a text asking who is representing bbc at the CBI/ Better together fundraising dinner tonight
      Anyone else notice the carbon capture story this morning?
      uk wants to rent out our empty oilfields for other countries in europe to store their CO2.Bloody cheek its our oil and our empty voids too! if anyone is going to rent them out it will be us so all OUR country benefits!

    155. Training Day says:

      The BBC, still a member of the CBI, is quoting the latter’s latest attack on Scottish self-determination on all of its platforms.

      The recent debacle with the CBI and the Electoral Commission never happened. According to the BBC, the CBI is once again merely a dispassionate analyst.

      The BBC is openly taunting us.

    156. Sinky says:

      Bunter

      I see Labour’s cheerleaders are rooting for UKIP in the Herald and the Unionists will be praying for UKIP success in Scotland for their own narrow political priorities.

    157. MochaChoca says:

      The good old BBC, just about every indy/business story includes an ‘oh and by the way Standard Life or Alliance Trust said…..’

      But with CBI’s first foray back into the fray no reference whatsoever of the recent farcical controversy between it, the BBC and the EC.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27495097

    158. Liquid Lenny says:

      Onwards

      We wont be taking any debt with plan A.

      What we have said is that we will pay our fair share of Debt Interest payments.

      Remember we have our share of UK assets, most of these are fixed assets, therefore we take a share of the monetary value of UK debt excluding PFI and public pension liabilities GBP 1.6 trillion, UK Assets 1.3 Trillion.

      Therefore a sizeable portion of the debt will be written off against our share of assets, meaning our portion of Debt Interest payments will be a lot less than the 4.02 billion per year we pay now.

    159. ronnie anderson says:

      Dont forget folks FMQs ARE on WED this WEEK not THURS.

    160. Bruce Wallace says:

      @Ian Brotherhood.

      There was a march round Motherwell on saturday, around 150-200 people, there wasn’t any flute bands with them but I’m sure they were wearing black arm bands but I’m not 100% as I duked them when I was approaching from the rear as I had my elderly mother with me just in case as I have yes paraphernalia on my car window. Apparently there was a some sort of walk with the bands playing in Carluke on sat evening, I wouldn’t worry about it as its approaching marching season and theres plenty of this crap to come.

    161. Ken500 says:

      The SNP and the SNP Scottish Gov have put pride back into Scotland.

      Westminster (Hulne) refused permission for an essential CC Project in Longannet in Fife, despite funding being in place. Scotland can’t access EU renewable Grants (£Billions) and Chinese investment (£Billions) because of Westminster opposition. Westminster cut solar payback 50% from 42p to 21p destroying essential investment in the Solar industry and renewable energy.

      Scotland will be investing in it’s own CC industry in it’s Oilfields without Westminster interference. The Scottish Gov will gain £Billions from an equal, progressive, non tax evasion Tax system. HMRC is not fit for purpose. A colossal waste of public monies.

      Why are boring, overpaid, London Luvies, the usual suspects, being bought up for the Commonwealth Games coverage.

      Vote YES

    162. scottish_skier says:

      For fun, Yougov:

      Thinking about Nigel Farage, do you think he is
      more…

      Scotland
      6% The voice of the nation
      56% A bigoted menace
      38% DK / neither

      rUK (Scotland removed)
      16% The voice of the nation
      39% A bigoted menace
      45% DK / neither

      Would be a good comment on the Herald article from Magnus the morn.

    163. Liquid Lenny says:

      Doh, Stu wish you had an edit function…

      Should not post at this time of the morning what I was trying to say is that the monetary value of our share of the assets will be subtracted from what ever is 8.3% of UK debt as of independence day. we will then pay our share of
      debt interest payments on that amount, hopefully they can work out a way to pay capital otherwise we will be stuck with an ever ending mortage!!!

    164. David Wardrope says:

      @ Ronnie

      Thanks for that bit of info re FMQs, it would have passed me by otherwise

    165. galamcennalath says:

      This poll, and the questions about what is devolved and reserved, make something rather clear – where VNB are coming from.

      Given the widespread lack of understanding and knowledge about how Scottish society is run and organised, there is an obvious opportunity to pull the wool over a lot of people’s eyes! Instead of attempting to educate people allowing them to make rational decisions, VNB sets out to purposely cause further confusion by spreading targetted misinformation.

    166. bookie from hell says:

      If everyone campaigning for YES vote,votes surely turnout will be higher than 28%,last European election?

    167. cynicalHighlander says:

      Holyrood committee on bothe sides. on now

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/scotland-22995739

    168. Sinky says:

      Training DAy

      I seem to have missed the BBC’s acknowledgement that two of Scotland’s largest investment funds with thousands of employees have stated that they will be remaining in Scotland after a Yes vote.

      Aberdeen Asset Management the largest listed fund manager in Europe, managing £350 billion and Baillie Gifford with £105 billion under its control.

      Contrast this with the BBC’s and MSM extensive coverage of Alliance Trust, which has a mere £7 billion or so of investments under its control, saying that it would “consider” moving if Scotland was outside a currency union.

      P.S. Scotland will be keeping the pound.

    169. call me dave says:

      Darling and Jenkins being ‘grilled’ by the Economics Committee live.

      Darling on now.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/scotland/

    170. call me dave says:

      @cynicalHighlander

      Ha ha snap!

    171. liz says:

      According to a headline in the Scotsman – which I will not open as I am not giving them traffic – OFCOM have stated that “BROADCASTERS have been warned they could be fined or have their licences suspended for showing bias in the independence referendum.”

      I thought they said previously that they had no control over the BBC?

      If this is true then the CBI issue needs to be raised.

    172. MochaChoca says:

      “saying that it would “consider” moving if Scotland was outside a currency union.”

      And simply by having been asked they question they have been forced to consider the option.

      By way of illustration, I can guarantee anyone, by the time they have finished reading this sentence, has considered relocating to Mongolia and living in a yurt.

    173. Training Day says:

      @Sinky

      Indeed. If the NUJ at Pacific Quay has got any credibility left it will now have to take action. The Management has completely ignored the NUJ’s concerns over the BBC’s CBI membership, and moreover has rammed them back down the NUJ’s throat.

    174. Flower of Scotland says:

      Thanks ronnie! Never miss FMQs and the weekly fun Alex has with Johann!

      Everyone please vote tomorrow and don’t let UKIP get a hold in Scotland! Vote SNP!

    175. Flower of Scotland says:

      O/t I was in Aviemore for the weekend and met all those lovely Yessers! A Spaniard, an Italian, a Polish guy, a Hungarian and Scots too. They were all very active Yessers! You know who you are guys because they read Wings too! I had a great time!

    176. heedtracker says:

      Thanks for Holyrood committee link. Flipper Darling’s an accomplished waffler but he’s really waffling now on Fred the Shred, RBS, popping over for coffee at his house to tell him RBS was finished and how its all Alex Salmond’s fault for sending goodwill letter to Fred but its not Flippers thingee.

      Worth listening to just to hear Flipper, Westminster bankbench MP prevaricate like only they can and not a squeak out of Bliar McDougall either, funnily enough.

    177. Grouse Beater says:

      Darling is unable, in answer to all questions, to be specific. What he can do, and does, is scraremonger.

      “Sweden has a high standard of living but …. it has social problems.”

      What is that supposed to mean, other than Darling scaremongering?

      He adds: “The SNP hope to reduce corporation tax. That means more tax will fall on the ordinary people.”

      In that case, reduced corporation tax attracts new companies to locate in Scotland … and if they don’t in sufficient numbers corporation tax is raised again.

      The man who demands the Scottish government be specific is chronically unable to be so himself. it’s all generalisation. He screams: “You’ve got costs, you’ve got risks.”

      So, what are they specifically?

      He does not have the information to be specific.

    178. heedtracker says:

      Flipper, BetterTogether billboards say vote No for more powers “What are the MORE powers you guarantee Scotland if we vote No” Ah, I’m glad you asked me that…

    179. Grouse Beater says:

      Blair McDougall of the No campaign says,

      “There is nothing redistributive in the White Paper.”

      What the hell is sovereignty given back to the people if not redistributive?

      Do these people understand they are resisting the spread of democratic rights?

    180. heedtracker says:

      @ Grouse Beater, “it’s all generalisation” sums up Flipper and his idiot liar side kick. Seem reasonable, keep Bliar out of it, keep it very very general, waffle away reality stuff like bank crash, promise more powers, let BBC, all news papers etc do the UKOK propaganda. Cunning.

    181. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT Two weeks ago I sent away fro a proxy vote for my husband as he is in hospital as I type – nothing has arrived and I am wondering ,with my suspicious mind , if this is some sort of scam or are they just inefficient and incompetent?

      Wilma, give Ronnie a big hug if you meet him in the Counting House. I wish I could be there but I’m sure you will be well looked after by the welcoming gang of Wingers!

    182. Barontorc says:

      Flipper – flips and flops and lies through his teeth all day long and it makes you wonder just where the guy is psychologically based. It’s one thing to be caught into a spiral of initially telling a porky and then having to keep it going with more porkies, but what Flipper is about is chronic, pathological dishonesty, which is bound to be operating at all levels of his life. A worrying condition.

    183. Papadox says:

      HMG A bunch of lying scum, con artists and fraudsters spivs who talk down to the electorate nicely and wear expensive suites. If you don’t listen they bully and frighten.

      MSM A bunch of spineless lying scum con artists and fraudsters spivs. The lachies of HMG.

      BBC A bunch of lying scum con artists and fraudsters spivs who talk down to their customers nicely and wear expensive suites. If you don’t listen they bully and frighten.

      Anybody who votes for that lot are no better than them and deserve all they get. You would need to be blind, stupid or scared witless not to see the truth, then again “none are so blind as those who do not want to see”.

    184. Helena Brown says:

      I have to agree with every word you say Papadox, but what if all you have is that, no access to any other information? I will never forgive these people, they are selling their country into servitude for money, there is a word for them and it has been used for centuries. Traitors.

    185. Grouse Beater says:

      The parliamentary committee gave them an easy time.

      They had two carpetbaggers there to be held to account and they let them waffle. You have to be far more aggressive, ditch the bourgeois good manners. You don’t have to insuilt to force out the truth.

      Here is a good example of US open debate:

      US Senator to head of the Investment Banks Supervisory Committe after he and his colleagues – waffling in answer to questions – failed completely to see the collapse of their corrupt institutions:

      “You couldn’t find your butts if you thrust you hands down the back of your pants!”

    186. Grouse Beater says:

      The parliamentary committee gave them an easy time.

      They had two carpetbaggers there to be held to account and they let them waffle. You have to be far more aggressive, ditch the bourgeois good manners. You don’t have to insuilt to force out the truth.

      Here is a good example of US free speech:

      US Senator to head of the Investment Banks Supervisory Committe, frustrated at the head supervisor’s inability to answer a direct question, waffling in answer to questions, and who failed completely to see corruption and collapse of the institutions under his supervision:

      “You couldn’t find your butts if you thrust you hands down the back of your pants!”

    187. Muscleguy says:

      @Drunken Hobo
      I don’t see why Scotland need to follow Westminster convention and use the title Prime Minister after Independence. Just like we have procurators fiscal up here we can have First Ministers. The terms are pretty much interchangeable anyway and mean the same things. The Irish seem happy with a Taoisheach instead of a PM. Maybe we can have a Gaelic term too?

    188. Grouse Beater says:

      Maybe we can have a Gaelic term too?

      I like that idea.

    189. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Or how about Chancellor? That used to be used way back

    190. HandandShrimp says:

      Well if Lord Robertson is to be believed (OK I maybe took that a wee bit far) we will be using Sith Lord as the title.

    191. bunter says:

      SNP press release states that A.D. has confirmed that he has had private discussions with Sir Nicholas Macpherson but would not disclose the details of the conversation.

      Confirmation that A.D. has been instrumental in the UK stance on CU, though I guess we knew that already.

      He seems to have wide access to the UK Gov and apparatus, despite being an opposition backbench MP!

    192. HandandShrimp says:

      bunter

      I guess it is no surprise, the whole shooting match has been a coordinated hatchet job and Darling has been working to the UK Government. This much should not surprise us. Given that the they have all been singing from the same hymn sheet, perhaps the biggest surprise is that their campaign is such a dog’s breakfast.

    193. rab_the_doubter says:

      Prince Charles opens his Gob, thereby insulting the memories of 20+ millions of Russians who died in WW2.

      Response:

      Nick Clegg defended the prince over his comments, saying it was “clearly a private conversation”.
      “I have never been of this view that if you are a member of the Royal Family somehow you have to enter into some Trappist vow of silence.”

      Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps said people would draw their own conclusions, but it was “not for ministers to comment on what our royals say”.

      Hypocrites to a man.

    194. Ken500 says:

      ‘Democracy’ UK style. Gerrymandering MSM. SNP airbrush out of the Election campaign.

    195. X_Sticks says:

      rab_the_doubter says:

      “Nick Clegg defended the prince over his comments, saying”

      “Please Sir, can I be a Lord, Sir, please, Sir?”

      There, fixed that for you rab 😀

    196. X_Sticks says:

      HandandShrimp & bunter

      “their campaign is such a dog’s breakfast.”

      Hardly a surprise, given all they have to work with is scares, sentimentality and lies.

    197. bookie from hell says:

      Allan Massie–The Scotsman

      So we are left with the SNP claiming it is between them and Ukip for this last Scottish seat, which may or may not be true but is an interesting prospect. The two parties have MUCH IN COMMON

      The SNP is a coherent, disciplined and well-established party with a long history behind it. The wild men were eliminated or sidelined a long time ago, even if some of the intemperate and NASTY INTERNET POSTS by the so-called CYBERNATS might seem to suggest otherwise.

      But if the SNP is not anti-English (though some who vote for it MAY BE THAT )

      It is in its hostility to Westminster and the political class there that UKIP IS AT ONE WITH THE SNP.Ukip’s founding purpose was to get the UK out of the EU(Tory party been at war over EU since thatcher-eg bill cash)

      hatchet job

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/allan-massie-ukip-and-snp-share-a-common-goal-1-3417583

    198. dkcm99 says:

      Should the SNP announce that in the event of a no vote in September they will effectively disband?

      Personally I don’t think they would but I do think that they should. A no vote would consign “Scotland” to the dustbin of history and show itself to be a “country” unworthy of serious representation.

    199. Nana Smith says:

      @Grouse Beater
      Maybe we can have a Gaelic term too?

      As a native gaelic speaker I quite like Prìomh Mhinistear na h-Alba

    200. WeeGingerDug says:

      Gaelic for First Minister is Prìomh Mhinistear.

      Irish for Prime Minister is Taoiseach, Irish for President is Uachtaran. The Scottish Gaelic equivalents are toiseach ‘clan chief’, and uachdaran ‘governor, ruler, chief, superior, prince’.

    201. chalks says:

      I cannot wait for UKIP to be the largest group from England/Wales in Europe.

      You want a game changer? That is it.

      Like we need one, but still…

    202. Democracy Reborn says:

      Saw an online Guardian piece headlined “Nigel Farage : Labour & Tory Attacks on UKIP Leader Backfire”.

      Do you think we’d ever see such a headline in our impartial MSM about Salmond? Is there such a thing as the tooth fairy?….

    203. fairiefromtheearth says:

      Hey leave us fairies oot o it. 😉

    204. caz-m says:

      rab_the_doubter

      Did Putin not call England a wee insignificant country in western Europe that nobody bothered about any more.

      And Russia have just signed the biggest gas export deal in their history, with China.

      They don’t need Europe to export to.

      So what are you going to do with Russia now Mr Cameron?

      Russia will just cut off the gas supply to the Ukraine all together.

      EVERY country the UK gets involved with, ends up worse off.

      Wait to you see them sort out Nigeria now.

      Vote YES and let them get on with it.

    205. bookie from hell says:

      next headline will be

      Charles v putin/salmond

    206. fairiefromtheearth says:

      Cmon Rev my ropes ready for an outing gies a new story lol

    207. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Muscleguy

      I am all for calling him or her, The Chancellor, like in days of yore.

      That and a pegged currency to the £ Stg called the Scots Merk.

      That would GIRUY Westminster, but endear us in other places.

    208. call me dave says:

      The Herald is going with this poll. (extract)

      UKIP policies to curb immigration, cut overseas aid and crack down on benefits claimants are backed by a majority of Scots, a surprise new poll suggests, despite the repeated failure of Nigel Farage’s anti-EU party to make a breakthrough north of the Border.

      The survey shows nearly seven out of 10 Scots back stricter immigration controls, a key pledge in Ukip’s manifesto for tomorrow’s European elections.

      Just over half want international aid budgets to be cut, while six out of 10 people say benefits should only be available to those who have lived in the UK for at least five years.

      The findings show Conservative voters are the most likely to endorse Ukip’s manifesto promises.

      But there is also significant backing from SNP voters, despite Alex Salmond’s European election campaign pitch that tomorrow’s poll offers a chance to reject Ukip’s “nasty politics”. Labour and LibDem voters are less likely to favour Ukip policies, the poll found.

      The survey was conducted by pollsters Survation for Dundee University’s Five Million Questions project, which aims to increase public and academic engagement in the referendum debate.

    209. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      See you all at CH2

    210. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Good to see this starting to pick up a bit, for Thistle/Independence Live –

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events#comments

    211. Papadox says:

      If they get a NO result in September then the proud pseudo middle class Scots will have signed a long term agreement with Westminster to ignore them and hollow out the Scottish parliaments powers to do anything meaningful and positive for the Scottish people.

      The proud pseudo middle class Scots will get gutted along with the rest of us, maybe then they will realise how close and important to Westminster they are?

      Our NHS will be emasculated and privatised like the English NHS. University tuition fees will be introduced by cutting the block grant. Probably nearer to their hearts, selling of their parents houses for long term care costs. Prescription charges, and charges for seeing a doctor. Due to cutting the block grant, the good old bedroom tax will be reintroduced. Aye better together, it just keeps getting better.

      They think they are above the riff raff but to LONDINIUM they are just cannon fodder like the rest of us, so make yourself comfortable and bend over you are about to get treated as one of the peasants.

      Yep the good old pseudo middle class proud Scots have nothing to worry about their unionist friends in Westminster will take care of them, you can put your money on that. It’s what you voted for so enjoy.

    212. MajorBloodnok says:

      Hello Papadox

      Sorry to interrupt your rant but I was at a Yes meeting yesterday planning canvassing on the south side of Edinburgh and I would say that every person there was middle class by one measure or another. There was even at least one Scottish Tory, perhaps the most enthusiastic of all. Just FYI.

    213. HandandShrimp says:

      call me dave

      It is easy to elicit those kind of responses against a backdrop of tabloid hysteria over immigration. In practice Scots have tended to rally against Home Office ejections of immigrants when those immigrants have become part of the local community.

    214. Free at 63! says:

      Papadox

      I am fortunate to be one of the better-off pensioners but I do have a social conscience which is why I’ll be voting Yes.

    215. Les Wilson says:

      I wonder where STU is today, not like him, hope everything is ok?

    216. Democracy Reborn says:

      @MajorBloodnok

      “one Scottish Tory (Yes), perhaps the most enthusiastic of all”. Brilliant!

      @fairiefromtheearth

      My apologies! No more tooth fairy references….. I should have substituted something like, “is there such a thing as a non-blinking Darling?”

    217. bunter says:

      YES announces a big Business for Scotland ”thunderclap” fundraiser to educate and provide voters the TRUTH about Scotlands economic potential.

      They are looking to launch 30/5 with a target of 30K. This one will be well worth our while backing.

    218. X_Sticks says:

      Les Wilson says:
      “I wonder where STU is today, not like him, hope everything is ok?”

      Said earlier on twitter he was popping out for a couple of hours – something about “eval meedya”

      Probably getting the papers and now writing furiously!

    219. Peter Macbeastie says:

      X Sticks; I did think it was hellish quiet around here myself.

      It’s not like the Rev to not belt someone for page breaks.

      Whatever he’s up to at the moment, it’s probably fair to say the Daily Mail won’t like it… more power to him, because anything that the Daily Mail doesn’t like is fine by me.

    220. Mo says:

      @fairiefromtheearth

      It seems like every time I look at a thread, theres you with unsavoury comments.

      “Cmon Rev my ropes ready for an outing gies a new story”

      “A lot of Rangers fans will be ex army and let me tell you after you murder dozens of natives and find out it was a big lie, your perspective changes”

      “Dont worry folks in sure the uncurruptable police are on the job”

      “cmon Rev Divide and Conqure, like ive said before WHO are they polling, is it the working class or Bearsdean residents”

      “oh no the EU debt train,looks like everybodys aboard how great it is to be indebted to someone else,another black hole for ordanary peoples monies”

      “EU is a dictatorship remember that bad man that got run out of Scotland,you know the English one thats always SCREAMING about the EU dictatorship and the way it overrides member states laws,spends monies like they are going to die tommorow,is that the EU everybody wants to join? cause cmon that old you have to be in it to change it bullshit is getting old”

      “its time for change not just in Scotland a World change cause all this madness has to stop,time for nato to pull back from Russia and China,time for the cia saudi regeme to stop the global terrorism”

      “The thing is this cu-t is banging on about history and judging it by his standards. He is wasting his 15min of fame and history will prove him to be a fool.”

      “Bugger their all warmongering capatalist whores enough said”

      Maybe tone it down?

      If someone was to take your comments at face value they would conclude that were nasty cybernats out for a lynch mob, who think all soldiers are murderers, hate the police, despise the middle class, are radical to the extreme and foul mouthed.

      Theres a mix of views on a mix of topics. Comments on ‘ropes’ and ‘outings’ aren’t a good idea – even in jest.

    221. Chic McGregor says:

      At the risk of starting another lying-duck thread, another possible Gaelic word for chief, manager or leader is ‘Ceannard’.
      Pronounced roughly KyeeahnArsht.

      More literally it is closer to ‘high heid yin’ which could be a kind of Scottish in joke.

    222. TJenny says:

      I wonder if his tweeted ‘Popping out to do some EVIL MEEJA,’ is related to his tweet yesterday(?) that ‘something mildly astonishing had happened’? I’m thinking an offer to appear on Newsnicht maybe as it’s the last week before that prog ends and may go out with a bang – OR, that he’s been asked to be interviewed for Newsnicht’s replacement prog?

      He’s such a tease. 🙂 but we’ll find out soon,I’m sure.

    223. X_Sticks says:

      @Chic

      Like that one a lot. Ceannard has a ring to it.

    224. TJenny says:

      Does the last ‘Arsht’ part of KyeeahnArsht, not seem a wee bit too near to ‘arse’, though?

    225. Chic McGregor says:

      @bunter

      Agree. Have already joined up for the Thunderclap and will bung a donation on the day.

    226. Democracy Reborn says:

      In Stu’s absence then, why don’t we have a wee quiz?

      Although I hate tempting fate…. picture the scene, it’s the day after the vote & Yes has triumphed.

      Amongst the No/BT posse,who’s face would you most like to picture & what would they be saying?

      Mine’s would be Johann:-

      Crestfallen, red, bloated complexion…”Erchie!, Erchie!, would ye f*****g believe it? They’ve jist blown it fur us! Jeeziz christ….pass me through that bottle o’ vodka…”

    227. Chic McGregor says:

      “Like that one a lot. Ceannard has a ring to it.” 😥

    228. TJenny says:

      Chic McGregor – is that a reference to my thinking it rhymed – ish, with arse?

    229. Chic McGregor says:

      @Democracy Reborn

      Too many to select from.

      How about its the last helicopter from the roof of Pacific Quay and it can take only 10?

    230. TJenny says:

      Oops – didn’t mean rhymed, meant sounded like. 🙁

    231. Chic McGregor says:

      T Jenny

      Might have been, I thought more likely a harping back to the famous canard/duck thread. i.e. you know how they get rings put on them’n that? Do tell XS

    232. X_Sticks says:

      @Chic,

      Only meant it was good Chic, I liked the “high heid yin” aspect of it.

    233. Barbara Watson says:

      Alistair Darling.

      Head hung low, wee rosy cheeks and blinking furiously, his scrawny arse is booted over the border by Alex Salmond!

      “It wis the Tories that made me do it”

    234. Les Wilson says:

      Darling, called by some as flipper, I kinda like Lady Alba’s name for him, UNIBROW!

    235. Elizabeth says:

      A reminder that First Minister’s Questions are on today (as highlighted by Ronnie) starts at 3pm. It’s on BBC2 or Democracy Live online

    236. Duggie says:

      “In short: nobody’s buying the unionist line”

      But the unionists ‘line’ isn’t that Scotland won’t get to keep the pound, its that Scotland won’t get to form a currency union.

      Obviously neither the unionists, or anyone else, can stop Scotland or any other country from using the pound if it wants.

      If, as is likely, a currency union is rejected then the SNP will probably have to keep the pound unofficially – like Panama with the dollar – in the absence of them coming up with any sort of proper Plan B to their currency union.

      Oddly though your question merely refers to keeping the pound, not to forming a currency union.

      I wonder why?

    237. Chic McGregor says:

      X-Sticks Oh right-oh. Maybe the duck’s arse connotations could be other selling points i.e. stop the leader getting too big for their boots.

    238. TJenny says:

      Was it Sally Magnusson who, when the SNP landslide was announced in 2011, was heard to say, with head in hands, ‘Oh, what are we gong to do’? Well after a YES vote, she’ll be saying, ‘What are we going to do and where are we going to do it, now?’ 🙂

    239. Les Wilson says:

      Democracy Reborn says:

      Mine would also be JoLa but. I picture her working at a supermaket checkout, saying to customers ” I used to be the Labour Boss in Scotland! I wiz,honest, honest, I really wiz! Honest I……….. Oh well, bugger off with your messages!

    240. HandandShrimp says:

      If we secure a Yes vote I don’t think it will take too long into independence before we are hard put to find people who were against.

    241. Duggie says:

      “A huge majority of Scots think an EU referendum is coming soon”

      Not if we vote yes. Then the SNP will force us into EU (and Nato) membership, as well as a currency union, without any sort of referendum or choice whatsoever, and despite not having a mandate to do so.

    242. Chic McGregor says:

      My last chopper list.

      Lord Foulkes
      Alistair Darling
      Johann Lamont
      George Robertson
      Anas Sarwar
      Jackie Baillie
      Brian Wilson
      Ruth Davidson
      Danny Alexander
      Gordon Brown

    243. heedtracker says:

      Coffee time online news without WOS!

      Stay calm. Ok so howabout progressive liberal BetterTogether Guardian and their very creepy attempt to humanise/feminise vote NO Severin Carrell.

      http://archive.today/p7kNy

      Why Guardian liggers think a girl side kick for hard core UKOK propagandist gorgeous pouting Severin Carrell makes any difference is way beyond reason.

      Libby Brooks, Severin Carrell, Steve Bell etc say “do you agree Scotland should go and fcuk itself” with pretty flowers, chocolates with ribbons and maybe some nice fluffy kittens too.

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/02/03/is-it-cos-wur-scots/

    244. Ivan McKee says:

      O/T

      @indycyclist Mark Coburn back in Glasgow on Sunday after 1400 mile cycle from Rome.

      All donations going to local Yes groups for local campaigning – worth supporting.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rome-to-home-1421-miles-on-a-bike-for-yes/x/2717166

    245. Chic McGregor says:

      @Duggie
      “Not if we vote yes. Then the SNP will force us into EU (and Nato) membership, as well as a currency union, without any sort of referendum or choice whatsoever, and despite not having a mandate to do so.”

      ERm, as we are already in all of these, surely the only possible mandate requirement would be for one which promised to take us out?

    246. Duggie says:

      “as we are already in all of these”

      Scotland isn’t a member of either the EU or Nato, and it isn’t in a currency union with the UK, or any separate state.

      Quite obviously, the people of Scotland should have a democratic sovereign right to decide whether we want Scotland to form a currency union with a separate state, and whether we want Scotland to become a member of the EU and Nato.

      The SNP are planning to force us into all those things before the next election, without giving us a say, and without having a mandate to do so.

    247. fergie35 says:

      @
      Duggie says:
      “A huge majority of Scots think an EU referendum is coming soon”

      Not if we vote yes. Then the SNP will force us into EU (and Nato) membership, as well as a currency union, without any sort of referendum or choice whatsoever, and despite not having a mandate to do so”.

      I think once we are Independent we will know the benefits of the EU, rather than the UK, because we wont have a distorted media service. Will the UK give you a referendum on NATO?

    248. TJenny says:

      Watching FMQs and listening to AS absolutely wiping the floor with JoLa. I have to say I pure lurve oor Alex and I just do not understand people, especially ‘wimmin’, who don’t – he is awesome!

    249. Democracy Reborn says:

      @Duggie:-

      “If, as is likely, a currency union is rejected..”

      Do you have a crystal ball? Is it not equally possible that, whatever the rantings of No/BT, realpolitik will prevail post-18th Sept, ie. the first thing the City will be telling to wee George is ‘get the CU sorted pronto’?

      SNP “not having a mandate” for EU/NATO?

      Are you seriously suggesting that most voters aren’t aware of the SNP’s policies to be members of both? Where have you been – No/BT & the MSM have been banging on every week about whether Scotland would be “allowed” to join.

    250. Duggie says:

      “Will the UK give you a referendum on NATO”

      No, but how that make it acceptable for the SNP to refuse to give us one too?

      Independence is supposed to give us more democracy than we have as part of the UK isn’t it?

      And regardless of whether membership of the EU is or isn’t beneficial, that should be a decision for the people of Scotland to make – as is our sovereign right – not a decision for Salmond to make on our behalf without giving us a choice and without a mandate to do so.

    251. Duggie says:

      “Do you have a crystal ball?”

      No, that’s why I said “as is likely”.

      “Are you seriously suggesting that most voters aren’t aware of the SNP’s policies to be members of both”

      What on earth does that have to do with it?

      We won’t have a chance to vote for the SNP’s policies, or anyone else’s, before we’re forced to accept them.

      After a yes vote, before the next election , the SNP are planning to force Scotland into a currency union and EU/Nato membership without giving us a say and without having a mandate to do so.

    252. fergie35 says:

      @Duggie,
      Time will tell, but I think the political landscape of Scotland will drastically change from Labour Tory to one of coalitions with many parties involved.
      I also think the Greens and anti nuclear campaign will paly a big part in Scotland’s future.
      I dont speak for the SNP, so who am i to answer your questions, but one thing is for sure, the future governments of Scotland will be far closer to the people than the Westminster government ever was, and I have faith in my friends and neighbours that we are smart enough to make the correct decisions and run our country better than the Psuedo power south of the border.
      Hope that answers your questions?

    253. fairiefromtheearth says:

      Duggie as ive said befor i look forward to a vote every month on these subjects. should Scotland join wain killing NATO war criminals yes or no.should Scotland send join the EU whos laws are made by an unelected commite and send them billions every year and get fekk all back yes or no.theirs lots of others too.

    254. MochaChoca says:

      In the event of a YES we may well have a referendum on EU membership, as it would either grease the wheels of entry if it’s a yes to join, or if its a NO, it would save us trouble of the entire EU entry process. I’m sure we could after all join the EFTA.

      However, let’s nullify one ‘democratic deficit’ at a time eh?

    255. TJenny says:

      Duggie – I’m not sure what you’re getting at so could you please clarify, are you for or against Scottish independence?

    256. HandandShrimp says:

      Duggie

      You appear to have picked up Norse Warrior’s guitar and are playing his tune (rather well if I may say so).

    257. fergie35 says:

      @Mocha Choca
      I couldnt agree more with you.
      Solve one problem at a time because its not going to happen all at once and I’m sure most people on here would agree that currently the biggest threat to Scotland is being run from Westminster where they take everything, blow the lot, and short change us, they store nukes in our most populated area and drag us into wars most of us dont want. It never was a Union, we have no say. At least with the EU there is no threat of the above mentioned, and if we cant get a good deal from the EU, quite sure we will join the EFTA instead.
      I trust the people of Scotland to do a better job than W/minster. We are genetically capable to run our own country

    258. Duggie says:

      “Duggie – I’m not sure what you’re getting at so could you please clarify, are you for or against Scottish independence?”

      I’m for independence, but I’m against the fact that after a yes vote the SNP are planning to force Scotland to form a currency union and become a member of the EU and Nato without giving us a say and without having a mandate to do so.

      I believe that independence should give us the opportunity to have a democratic say on what currency we want Scotland to use, and whether we want it to become a member of the EU and Nato.

      However, the SNP are planning to force through all those policies before the next election, without giving us a say and without having a mandate to do so.

    259. msean says:

      Sounds like ukip has arrived on the website lol

    260. Democracy Reborn says:

      @Duggie:-

      Are you a No/BT/UKIP troll or a fundamentalist indy supporter (ie. no EU, no NATO, no currency union)?

    261. Duggie says:

      “Are you a No/BT/UKIP troll or a fundamentalist indy supporter (ie. no EU, no NATO, no currency union)?”

      I’m neither. I’m a Scot who believes in democracy and the sovereignty of the Scottish people.

      Personally I’m in favour of EU membership, opposed to Nato membership, and I want our own currency.

      But I believe all those decisions are for the people of Scotland to make – not for the SNP to make on our behalf without giving us a choice and without having a mandate to do so.

      Surely everyone on this site believes the same thing?

    262. TJenny says:

      Duggie – Hurrah – you are for indy – so let’s just get us over the line and remember these are the starting positions. Then, when we all have total control of all powers, these things can be decided by the people of Scotland.

      As you know there will be a Holyrood election in 2016. There may be parties who have in their manifesto to offer a referendum on NATO, EU etc, or not. If not and the desire is out there, then we can petition the SCOTTISH govt. to hold one. All these things will be possible, but only WHEN we have an iScotland. 🙂

      Oh, and welcome to the fold.

    263. chalks says:

      Exactly TJenny, beat me to it.

      Duggie, as TJenny says, there will be an election in 2016 first, I’d imagine there will be a wide range of different views on currency, eu etc etc….any party that gets in will have a mandate to follow their policies….that might be the SNP, it might not.

      But they won’t have the actual power to do so until Scotland is independent, which doesn’t happen on the 19th September, it happens in March 2016 or thereabouts.

    264. Duggie says:

      “As you know there will be a Holyrood election in 2016”

      But it will be too late by then, at least for the short term.

      To take the currency union as one example – obviously once we’ve been forced into by the SNP without a choice in March 2016 it will be too late to do anything about it even if we then vote overwhelmingly in May 2016 for a party opposed to it.

      The currency union will obviously have a legally binding minimum duration – neither side is going to agree to such a union that one of them could leave whenever it wanted, causing considerable economic damage – so we will probably be stuck in it for at least 10 years, despite never being given any say on it and despite the SNP not having a mandate to agree to it.

      That isn’t the type of democracy I want in an independent Scotland.

    265. TJenny says:

      Duggie – so do you think we should just declare we’ll use the £ without CU?

    266. bald eagle says:

      Tjenny

      greenshield stamps that might keep him happy

    267. Muscleguy says:

      @rabthedoubter
      Russia can’t cut off gas supplies to Ukraine, the gas pipe to Western Europe runs through it and Ukraine takes a branch of it just after it crosses the border iirc. So Russia can’t cut off Ukraine without cutting off the rest of Europe.

    268. TJenny says:

      Muscleguy – and your point is?

    269. MochaChoca says:

      Duggie, I can see where you are coming from, but look at it this way:

      The CU, EU and NATO are all things we are currently ‘in’ so Independence specifically results in no change to these if we are seeking to remain within them (you could say the same about the UN, but I notice you haven’t questioned that)

      You’d only expect a referendum either if there is public demand (usually expressed at the ballot box) or the government want to change or something quite drastically about the way we are governed.

    270. Robert Louis says:

      Duggie,

      I am very sorry, but you are quite misinformed and confused on Scottish parliamentary democracy. The current Scottish Government will be in office, until 2016. They have a democratic mandate to act in what they believe are the best interests of Scotland whilst in office. They also absolutely have a democratic mandate for the referendum and negotiations that follow. That is how democracy works. It is the same in Westminster.

      So, as regards the referendum result, when the YES vote comes in, the country of Scotland will remain within the UK until March 2016. As the democratically elected Government of Scotland will still be in office, it is their democratic duty to act in what they regard as the most appropriate way during the independence negotiations, whether YOU personally, as an individual, agree with them or not. THAT is how democracy works.

      In March 2016, a new independent Scottish Government will be elected for the first time, and it can choose to change ANY policy of the previous Government it chooses. THAT again is democracy. There really is no more to it that that. It is how democracies around the world work.

    271. Alba4Eva says:

      Duggie, I have had that argument so many times before and it reminds me of times when I am in the kitchen and I make cheese on toast and a coffee… I put the cheese on toast on a saucer, then grab that, the coffee, my ciggies, lighter ashtray and my mobile phone… before setting off to the livingroom.

      Suffice to say, the accidents I have had in my hallway, with the whole lot ending up on the floor.

    272. Democracy Reborn says:

      @Duggie

      So how are you going to vote in September?

    273. chalks says:

      @Duggie

      The Scottish General Election aren’t scheduled to take place in May, unless you know differently?

    274. heedtracker says:

      Is Duggie grasping the point of democracy in Scotland? If the various parties in Holyrood offer referendums on the EU, CU, NATO etc, vote for them Duggie.

      Also CU agreements are broken all the time and our one need not last 10 years either. It all depends on how it works out down the line. RUK is a fiancial time bomb waiting to go cap in hand to the IMF, just like last time and then they struck oil, Scots oil.

    275. Duggie says:

      “The CU, EU and NATO are all things we are currently ‘in’ so Independence specifically results in no change”

      But we’re not in a currency union and we’re not a member of either the EU or Nato.

    276. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Morag – In honour of your bravery in torrential thunderstorms, garden gate abuse and literary expertise it seems that ‘A Tidal Device’ has been named after you.

      https://twitter.com/ScotGovEnergy/status/469051407140941824/photo/1

    277. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Morag – In honour of your bravery in torrential thunderstorms, garden gate abuse and literary expertise it seems that ‘A Tidal Device’ has been named after you.

      https://twitter.com/ScotGovEnergy/status/469051407140941824/photo/1

    278. Duggie says:

      “I am very sorry, but you are quite misinformed and confused on Scottish parliamentary democracy. The current Scottish Government will be in office, until 2016. They have a democratic mandate to act in what they believe are the best interests of Scotland whilst in office”

      With respect, I’m afraid it is you who is misinformed about the SNP’s democratic mandate.

      They were elected to govern as a devolved government – so they therefore have a mandate to govern as such and to enact any of the policies in their 2011 manifesto, including the referendum.

      They do not have a mandate to enact anything whatsoever that will affect an independent Scotland – particularly major policies such as currency union and EU/Nato membership that were not in their manifesto and that the people of Scotland have never voted for.

      “In March 2016, a new independent Scottish Government will be elected for the first time, and it can choose to change ANY policy of the previous Government it chooses”

      The election is in May 2016. By which point we will have already been forced into a legally binding currency union which the elected government will not be able to leave even if it wants to.

    279. David says:

      Duggie, your patter’s like watter. If I want to read what the dug wrote, I go to the Original and Best:

      http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

    280. Duggie says:

      “The Scottish General Election aren’t scheduled to take place in May, unless you know differently?”

      Yes they are. May 2016. Look it up.

    281. Duggie says:

      “Also CU agreements are broken all the time and our one need not last 10 years either”

      Name one currency union that has ever been broken shortly after it was formed by one side alone deciding to leave it?

      Certainly the Czech-Slovak currency union collapsed after just 6 months, but that was a mutual decision taken by both sides – largely because the smaller of the sides was suffering a mass removal of currency from its banks – hardly an example we want to use for Scotland is it.

    282. tommy kane says:

      just picked this up, apparently we are paying for this.

      http://www.gov.uk/government/news/5-reasons-to-keep-the-uk-pound

      hope I got the link correct

    283. Morag says:

      And here we are, and Stu has been otherwise engaged for most of the day. And he even intimated as much on Twitter.

      Fancy that.

    284. TJenny says:

      Morag – do you think he’s secretly ‘Duggie’ and just wanted to keep us amused in his absence? 🙂

    285. desimond says:

      Suspicions that Duggie runs a ‘Referendum Voting booth’ business are as yet unfounded.

      ‘Thought Independence was to give us more democracy’..was it just me that suddenly thought of Labours plans to devolve power to wee councils when they ready that line?

      I can see how the evil and insular SNP are getting in the neck from open-minded Duggie, its not as if they suggested a cross-party team to discuss negitiations post a YES vote now is it, ooh hold on….

    286. Jim Thomson says:

      @tommy kane 5:14

      I have to say we shouldn’t have paid much for it. Probably took a committee of many a period of many days to produce far less than many assertions.

      Professional government #facepalm

    287. Jim Thomson says:

      sorry, that should have been “far fewer than”

      #GrammarPolice

    288. TJenny says:

      Jim Thomson – quick amendment there, even in the Rev’s absence. Respect. 🙂

    289. heedtracker says:

      @ Duggie, you’re really not grasping the whole democracy for Scotland thing are you? Or. Ducking out of it more like. CU’s that were ended/broken are Greenland and the euro. They use the krone now and howsabout Ireland and sterling and the EU? All legitimate democratic changes in CU, decided by the electorate of each country and not like here, the Bank of England clown show.

      I say chaps, my 2 up 2 down in Primrose Hill’s worth £2 million now. That’s nothing, my 4 beder in Highgate’s worth over £10 million. What ho!

    290. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Morag

      Aye tedious isn’t it. Same old, same old.

    291. Les Wilson says:

      Well, I think Rev is now on a rendition flight to Bengazi!

    292. Jim Thomson says:

      @TJenny – it was an OCD thing :-/ even the Rev can’t make me twitch as quickly as that 😛

    293. Robert Louis says:

      Duggie,

      I and others have explained matters to you. You have your own quite unique interpretation of matters. I think it’s really just a waste of time responding, when you choose to ignore hard facts.

      Just as I had expected.

    294. TJenny says:

      And – he’s back. Hurrah. 🙂

      And asking what he’s missed? Not much really.

    295. Robert Louis says:

      Morag,

      Aye, when the cat’s away, and all that.

    296. Morag says:

      Stu apparently spent the afternoon in the park, according to Twitter. Good for him, I say.

      And Robert Louis had the best reply, and also whoever it was who said, the default is to continue with present arrangements which can be changed later if there is a democratic will. That means sterling, the monarchy, the EU and NATO. And the word on the streets is that the reason Osborne is so against a currency union is that the Scottish government told him there was no way in hell they would sign up for 50 years.

      Imagine if a Yes in September had to trigger heated referendum campaings about all sorts of different issues before any negotiating could take place? Nightmare. If we feel strongly enough about changing any of these things, we can vote for that in 2016.

    297. heedtracker says:

      @ Duggie, this is what the present CU means for teamGB although the bubble might burst soon. The Treasury say it might go pop but this is same treasury that says no CU with Scotland or rather their top impartial and unbiased civil servant said NO CU, bad Scotland.

      http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-36027400.html

      7 bedrooms, busyish Hampstead streets, only £13.500.000 of your Englsih pounds. Actually offers over but haggling is fun too.

    298. Les Wilson says:

      So Stu is in the park, contemplating?
      Hmmm, wonder if the BBC have offered him a million quid for the site? decisions, decisions………LOL!

    299. heraldnomore says:

      motion denied, by 10

    300. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      That isn’t the type of democracy I want in an independent Scotland.

      From all you have had to say you ought to have restricted yourself to that one telling statement. You are against the establishment of a Scottish Parliament in any form for it has no authority in your eyes.

      Just as well you’re not in a position of to reverse history – eh?

      You should have gone to Specsavers.

    301. fergie35 says:

      Duggie, I can see where you are coming from but it’s all one stage at a time, and the people of Scotland did vote in the SNP with a clear message for independence and as I said before, I have every faith in my friends and neighbours who will elect governments in the future who will be pro or anti NATO / EU.
      Lets be a nation again first, then these choices will be decided by us, London.

    302. fergie35 says:

      Last sentence should read ‘not London’
      Sorry

    303. heedtracker says:

      So Duggie, can I put you down as undecided? A proud Scot but…. leave all the decisions to the chaps and chapesses in The City and Westminster, who really know how to get rich and even richer.

    304. Caroline Corfield says:

      Aha! We are in a currency union of sorts. Sterling is used in Scotland but isn’t technically legal tender unlike rUK ( possibly different in NI too), just because we have no say in the matter doesn’t discount that due to differences in law we have no choice but to consider aspects of current Scottish use of Sterling as aspects of a currency union. Mark Carney listed out several different types of scenario for currency union and included the US federal states and the Canadian federal states in his analysis. Perhaps to the outside world they look like one country in the same way you are suggesting the UK of GB and NI is, but from a fiscal point of view I would disagree.

      Further if we are not currently in NATO wtf are they playing war games in our territorial waters on occasion? Similarly for our current EU membership? The UK of GB and NI is not a single country. Scotland is not a devolved region of it either. And one can’t help but see an argument that we are not in a CU, NATO or the EU as suggesting otherwise.

    305. Andy-B says:

      Ofcom stated today that, they will come down hard on biased coverage of the independence referendum, when it officially begins, on the 30th of May. Ofcom should brace itself for a barrage of complaints,concerning the BBC.

      No link available, in the London owned Daily Record.

    306. scottish_skier says:

      Duggie says:

      I’m for independence.

      Good stuff. And if the polls are right, you’re going to get it too!

    307. TJenny says:

      Andy – B – so for the next 9 days, the BBC will continue to throw the unionist barrel-scraping at us. And then from 31st, turn around and naysay what they’ve previously being trying to get us to believe?

      How will that work?

    308. Buster Bloggs says:

      Can I post from my phone?

    309. Buster Bloggs says:

      Yippee I have a browser issue, still couldn’t post Rev, Sorted :-)))

    310. TJenny says:

      BB – looks like it. 🙂

    311. Duggie says:

      “its not as if they suggested a cross-party team to discuss negitiations post a YES vote now is it, ooh hold on”

      Salmond also said that he didn’t have a “monopoly on wisdom” and that he would discuss things with other parties after the 2011 election too….

      The SNP have stated officially that they plan to negotiate to form a currency union and join Nato/EU after a yes vote.

      If they really were planning ‘cross party’ discussions, why on earth would they assert officially that two of the main things the second biggest independence party is opposed to are going to happen, without discussion?

    312. Wilma says:

      Dorothy Devine

      Thanks for message, shame you can’t be there yourself. We are looking forward to meeting all the Wingers, just hope I can remember all the different names.

      We took the option of a postal vote when we registered this year because we have missed out on an election in the past because of an overnight hospital appointment.

      Hope it went well on Tuesday. It was great seeing all the family on Sunday.

      Back on track I think we really have to vote SNP tomorrow to get committed Independence supporters inside Europe at this crucial time. Later we can go back to our favoured party but tomorrow is tactical.

    313. Duggie says:

      ” the default is to continue with present arrangements”

      Scotland isn’t a member of either the EU or Nato, and it isn’t in a currency union with a separate state.

      So, quite obviously, joining those things is not the ‘present arragement’ we have now.

    314. Off Topic:-

      Does S.E.P.A. have any Robot Submarines that can examine the seabed around those island sites where M.O.D. and N.A.T.O. Allies have showered Scotland with Depleted Uranium Shells and Ammunition.?

      Or, are we expected to trust the perpetrators who DO have robotic subs.- like America or Cousteau`s cousins in France.

      The Crown Estates – which owns the seabed – must be made liable for part of any “Reparations” during negotiations after Sept.2014..

      Anthrax island experiments.

      Radioactive Caesium around Dounreay. (other nuke plants?).

    315. Duggie says:

      “You are against the establishment of a Scottish Parliament in any form for it has no authority in your eyes”

      What on earth are you babbling about? I quite clearly stated that I am in favour of independence.

      Indeed, I am arguing strongly in favour of democracy and the democratic right of the Scottish people to have a say on crucial issues like currency and membership of the EU and Nato, rather than being forced into those things without a choice by a party that has no mandate to do so.

      Quite how that leads you to the ludicrous belief that I am ‘against’ the Scottish parliament I have no idea, I’m certainly far more in favour of democracy and the sovereignty of the Scottish people than you and others on this site.

    316. Fireproofjim says:

      Please come back quickly, Stu.
      People are going berserk, I have seen several posts with no paragraph breaks. Anarchy is loose upon the land.

    317. Gray says:

      @ duggie

      All the decisions and improvements we all want to make to an independent Scotland can only be made once we are indeed independent.

      Everything else is superfluous.

    318. Duggie says:

      “I and others have explained matters to you. You have your own quite unique interpretation of matters. I think it’s really just a waste of time responding, when you choose to ignore hard facts”

      Which ‘hard facts’ have I apparently ignored?

      My interpretation is not ‘unique’, it is based on indisputable facts.

      The SNP were elected in an election to a devolved parliament and have a mandate to govern and a devolved government and to enact any policies from their 2011 manifesto – including the referendum.

      They were not elected to do anything as an independent government, or a quasi independent government as they’d be between 2014-16, and they have no mandate whatsoever to enact anything that will affect an independent Scotland – including currency union and EU/Nato membership.

      Those policies were not in their 2011 manifesto (indeed they didn’t even do their Nato u-turn until after the election), so the people of Scotland have never voted on them and never given the SNP a mandate to enact them.

      Those are facts.

    319. TJenny says:

      There’s a new excellent WOS article up, by Mark Frankland.

      http://t.co/D02mdKa2PV

    320. Duggie says:

      “if we are not currently in NATO wtf are they playing war games in our territorial waters on occasion? Similarly for our current EU membership? The UK of GB and NI is not a single country”

      We’re part of a member of Nato, and part of a member of the EU, we’re not a member of either of them ourselves, anymore than Yorkshire, or Bavaria or Catalonia is.

      And the UK of GB and NI is a sovereign state, and it is that sovereign state that is the member of the EU/Nato.

    321. Duggie says:

      “the word on the streets is that the reason Osborne is so against a currency union is that the Scottish government told him there was no way in hell they would sign up for 50 years”

      So assuming they compromise and agree on a legally binding minimum duration of say 20 years, that can only cease if both sides mutually agree to terminate it.

      That would mean the people of Scotland will be forced to endure 20 years of a currency union that we never voted for and that we were forced into without a choice by the SNP despite them not having a mandate to do so.

    322. fergie35 says:

      Yorkshire and Bavaria are regions of England and Germany. Yorkshire didn’t sign up to the act of union because it is populated by English people. Do you really compare Scotland to Yorkshire?
      Your arguments require crystal balls and because you are against the EU, doesn’t mean we all are, we are concerned with Independence first, the rest we can talk about later, but just for the record all this nonsense about NATO and the EU is Britnat propaganda punted by the BBC and the rest of the unionist media, maybe you believe this propaganda, but there is no way Scotland with its seas and energy and strategic place in the Atlantic will be rejected., and most Scots are politically polarised with England as regards the EU

    323. Boorach says:

      @ Duggie

      Have a read of the White Paper. If we achieve a Yes vote on the back of it then the SNP have all the mandate they will need to negotiate the CU, EU and NATO.

    324. Votadini Jeannie says:

      @Duggie,

      I hope that an independent Scotland, will have far more referenda and direct consultation with the people than Westminster ever has.

      Like you, I wish to be consulted over the EU (I’d prefer EFTA), a Currency Union (I’d prefer our own) or NATO (not sure on that one yet), but if we did all of these things before setting up as a fully independent country then we’d still be under Westminster rule a decade from now while we fight it all out.

      I agree with what the others have said, let’s get out pronto, with all off the above still in place, then address these issues one by one. Also, referenda are expensive and the pocket-money is fairly stretched as it is.

      All of these issues, as well as the UN, the monarchy etc. are reversible and can be sorted once we’re out, when it’s more affordable too. But right now, we need to just focus on achieving independence. After that, anything is possible.

    325. MajorBloodnok says:

      So, Duggie, we should:

      1) have the referendum;
      2) win said referendum;
      3) on that basis immidiately call a Scottish General Election (say November/December 2014) with these various policies on EU, currency union, NATO, Nordic Council membership, Trident, corporation tax rates, tuition fees, etc. as manifesto commitments;
      4) vote in the Scottish Government that best reflects the desires of the Scottish people to implement said manifesto commitments;
      5) Mandate the new Scottish Government to negotiate these policies with the EU, UK, NATO, etc.?

      Do you not think that is a bit risky? For God forfend should the opposition get in just after the referendum through fluke or skulduggery, Duggie, and try to reverse the settled will of the Scottish people. Personally I’d rather take my chances with the Government that got us through the referendum and then make the decisions down the line about these other weighty matters.

      To me nothing will be fixed except the fact of Scottish independence, and if we can create the democracy we hope for we will be able to change the country to what we want it to be through demoncratic processes.

    326. MajorBloodnok says:

      Sorry, I missed out dog licences from that list.

    327. TJenny says:

      MajorBloodnok – it’s just another ‘wee thing’.

    328. Chic McGregor says:

      Test (last post didn’t appear)

    329. Chic McGregor says:

      OK will try resending it

    330. Grouse Beater says:

      Sorry, I missed out dog licences from that list.

      I presume you think “Duggie” needs one.

    331. Chic McGregor says:

      Nope, not getting through. Maybe it is too big, I’ll try splitting it.

    332. Chic McGregor says:

      Nope still isn’t getting through in two parts I’ll try three.

    333. Chic McGregor says:

      Part 1
      To be fair to Duggie, I don’t think he is advocating that the SNP takes a particular stance right now for the referendum. May be wrong on that, but if he is only in saying the Indy white paper should have contained a policy to, at some point after independence, hold referenda on EU membership, Nato membership , Currency and other essentially non party-political issues on which the Scottish people should decide, then I am in favour of that and have advocated it, no doubt ad nauseam to many, for many years.

      The maths is straightforward.

      Lets say you have two policy issues X and Y, with randomly distributed support.

      Let us imagine that 70% of the electorate supports X and also that 70% of the electorate supports Y.

      So BOTH should win in a plebiscite and both should become enabled policies. Right?

      However, if you hold a referendum in which the option is:

      “Should policies X and Y be enabled?” YES/NO

      Then, if the supports are randomly distributed and not related to each other,it will fail, since statistically only around 49% will vote for both.

      That is precisely why Unionists try to attach other, potentially divisive issues to independence. Every one they succeed in doing so will lose votes to a greater or lesser extent, depending on how strongly held the electorate view is and on how unrelated it is to independence.

      Three of the issues which most exercise the electorate but which are unrelated to the issue of independence are EU membership, currency choice and NATO membership. There are others like defence, monarchy, a written constitution.

      These are all unrelated to independence and therefore very useful if you want to use them as spoilers of the pro independence vote. By ‘unrelated’ I mean that for each of those secondary issues, there are independence supporters on both sides of the fence. And those feeling strongly on a secondary issue but who are only mildly in favour of independence could well end up being NO voters in the independence referendum.

      That is why Unionists have busted a gut trying to attach these issues.

    334. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      I quite clearly stated that I am in favour of independence.

      No. You are doing the opposite.

      The plebiscite won IS the mandate.

      Once won, the administration enters into discussion with all parties on all issues immediately, and when agreement is reached, bring those decisions to Parliament, discusses them, votes, and consequently creates Bills and law to implement the radical changes.

      Assuming a fantasy No win do you think Westminster will announce it won’t stand by the will of the people instead put it to a Referendum as to whether No should be ignored and Yes instituted?

      That’s a rhetorical question for dummies.

    335. Duggie says:

      “Yorkshire and Bavaria are regions of England and Germany. Yorkshire didn’t sign up to the act of union”

      So what? In terms of their status as part of the sovereign state UK, and their status as part of the EU and Nato, Yorkshire and Scotland are no different.

      “because you are against the EU”

      I’m not, as I clearly said in an earlier post.

      I’m personally in favour of the EU, but, unlike apparently some people on this site, I believe in democracy and the democratic right of the Scottish people, so I believe that a decision on EU membership should be for the sovereign people of Scotland to make, not Salmond on his own without a mandate and without giving us a choice.

    336. Duggie says:

      “Have a read of the White Paper. If we achieve a Yes vote on the back of it then the SNP have all the mandate they will need to negotiate the CU, EU and NATO”

      But as the SNP, the yes campaign, and numerous others keep telling us, the referendum isn’t a vote for the SNP or their preferred version of ‘independence’, its a vote for independence alone.

      Are you suggesting that a yes vote is actually just a vote for the SNP’s version of ‘independence’ alone?

    337. Chic McGregor says:

      nope I tried cutting part 2 down to only about 30 lines but still won’t go through. ????

    338. Chic McGregor says:

      part 2
      In my opinion, often stated in the past, the best way to have removed the possibility of these secondary issues being used to dilute the independence issue, is to have formally promised, say in the white paper, that AFTER independence, on suitable time scales, each of those would be put to the Scottish people.

      For example:

      “There will be a referendum on EU membership between 5 and 10 years after independence”.

      A policy of deferral like that would have removed these issues from the debate and would have preempted the kind of tactics we have seen.

      For example, if the EU thought Scotland was going to hold a referendum, do you really think they would have been so vague on continuing membership? I don’t.

    339. Grouse Beater says:

      @Duggie

      Are you suggesting that a yes vote is actually just a vote for the SNP’s version of ‘independence’ alone?

      Is there another political party offering a plebiscite?

      Don’t be coy. Name names!

    340. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      I believe in democracy

      Very amusing. If only you knew what it was.

    341. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Why does this thread smell of mead-dampened beard?

    342. Duggie says:

      “Is there another political party offering a plebiscite?”

      The Scottish Greens and Scottish Socialists are both in favour of independence so there’s two for you.

      Indeed, the former’s independence preferences are far more of a real independence than the version the SNP are offering.

      I’m not surprised you’re not aware of any party other than the SNP though, given that they totally dominate and control the yes campaign.

    343. Chic McGregor says:

      Nope now even 10 lines won’t go through

    344. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      The Scottish Greens and Scottish Socialists are both in favour of independence so there’s two for you.

      They are not the administration.

      If you knew the answer why did you ask the question?

    345. Duggie says:

      “the administration enters into discussion with all parties on all issues immediately, and when agreement is reached, bring those decisions to Parliament, discusses them”

      The SNP have already stated officially that they will negotiate to form a currency union and become an EU/Nato member after a yes vote.

      That doesn’t leave much room for any supposed ‘discussion’ with other parties, given the fact that the second biggest independence party, and several others, are strongly opposed to the currency union and Nato membership, does it.

      The other parties will be involved in the decision-making to the same extent that they’re involved in deciding what Yes Scotland promotes i.e. only the SNP’s version of independence while ignoring any alternatives.

    346. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian

      Why does this thread smell of mead-dampened beard?

      I’ve hard a hard day moving filed rocks and concrete paving stones up a hill. Duggie’s deliberately contrarian waffle seem like an extension of an onerous day.

    347. Duggie says:

      “They are not the administration”

      The administration you’re referring to are a devolved government, elected to a devolved parliament.

      That administration have no mandate to govern as a quasi independent government between 2014-16 and no mandate to enact anything that will affect an independent Scotland, including currency union and EU/Nato membership.

      The people of Scotland have never voted on any of the above issues, and have never given the administration any mandate to enact any of those issues.

    348. Chic McGregor says:

      OK given up on sending normally.

      Duggie or anyone curious enough, you can read my reply here:

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/srrbpxw3fii41y0/DeferralPolicy.txt

    349. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      The SNP have already stated officially that they will negotiate to form a currency union and become an EU/Nato member after a yes vote.
      No. You are dissembling again.

      The SNP state the best economic intellects they consulted propose a currency union as first choice, however it’s not their only choice. But it IS the one they wish to open negotiations with.

      Are you going to stand SNP policy on its head all night? The blood will rush to your head and you’ll get dizzy.

    350. Craig says:

      Caroline Corfield,

      “it would be counter productive for the SNP to withdraw from politics and leave the Scottish electorate with the consequences of a No vote.”

      “This is one of the best times for a referendum and a Yes vote, but it will not be the only time.”

      Westminster will make sure that WAS the only time we had a referendum. Remember it was never meant to happen.

      If in the best of times, a majority declines to vote Yes, we have very little chance of independence ever happening.

      It would be hard for Yes voters, but our ONLY hope for another chance would be for the SNP to leave the Scottish electorate with the consequences of a No vote.

      In my view, it makes perfect sense for the SNP to announce WELL BEFORE THE REFERENDUM, that in the event of a No vote, the SNP government will resign on 19th September and will not stand for any election in Scotland until there is another referendum on full independence.

      And I say that as a pro-independence SNP supporter and voter.

    351. Duggie says:

      “Like you, I wish to be consulted over the EU (I’d prefer EFTA), a Currency Union (I’d prefer our own) or NATO (not sure on that one yet), but if we did all of these things before setting up as a fully independent country then we’d still be under Westminster rule a decade from now while we fight it all out”

      And if we sit back and let the SNP force us into a currency union without giving us a choice and without them having a mandate to do so, then we’ll still be under Westminster rule economically a decade from now.

      And, quite apart from anything else, I’m sure most people on this site want an independent Scotland to be a progressive dynamic enhanced democracy in which the people of Scotland are sovereign – its hardly a great start to such a democracy to have the SNP forcing us into things without us a mandate and without using being given any right to have a say is it?

    352. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      That administration have no mandate to govern as a quasi independent government between 2014-16

      Says you…

      Wait and see.
      That reminds me; how do you keep an idiot in suspense?

      I’ll tell you tomorrow.

    353. Duggie says:

      “Very amusing. If only you knew what it was”

      You certainly don’t appear to know what it is, given that you seem to think ‘democracy’ is the SNP forcing Scotland into a currency union and EU/Nato membership without giving the people of Scotland any choice, and without having a mandate to do so.

      Quite what you think is ‘democratic’ about that I have no idea, unless you think anything Salmond does is automatically ‘democratic’ regardless of how he does it?

    354. MochaChoca says:

      Duggie,

      The Indy ref is happening in less than 4 months, the 3 points you are talking about are included along with a raft of others in the white paper, that’s what we’re voting for. The time to try to shoehorn in anything else passed a long time ago.

      I actually agree that we should have another referendum on EU membership, but unless we vote yes it can’t happen anyway.

      One thing I would add though, I’m sure if the Scottish gov think an announcement prior to sept 18 of an EU ref following a YES would result in increased support for indy then they won’t hesitate.

    355. Onwards says:

      I agree with the ‘one step at a time’ attitude.
      Get independence first and keep some stability with the current set-up.
      Tactically, anything else is just naive.

      There are too many different opinions on the EU/Currency/ NATO/Queen etc. The NO side would have a field day playing the ‘uncertainty’ card.

      The important thing is to get sovereignty first.

    356. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      I’m sure most people on this site want an independent Scotland to be a progressive dynamic enhanced democracy in which the people of Scotland are sovereign

      Oh … suddenly we are sovereign!

      According to your warped version of the democratic process we win the plebiscite but our will is to be ignored because the people are not sovereign after all.

    357. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      democracy’ is the SNP forcing Scotland into a currency union

      Not according to all the leaders of the other political parties, and the UK chancellor.

      Is your opinion above theirs?

    358. Duggie says:

      “Says you…”

      Are you sure you actually know the meaning of the word ‘mandate’?

      Here’s a definition for you: “the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an election”.

      Now, the SNP won the 2011 election so have a mandate to govern as a devolved government and to enact all the policies in their 2011 manifesto.

      What they do not have a mandate to do is to enact anything that will affect an independent Scotland in any way, because the electorate have never voted for them in any election to enact any of their preferred independence policies – neither currency union, or EU or Nato membership were in their 2011 manifesto and the people of Scotland have never electorally endorsed any of those policies.

      Therefore they do not have a mandate to enact them.

      Its really very simple, its not my ‘opinion’ or what I ‘say’, its a simple fact.

    359. Duggie says:

      “According to your warped version of the democratic process we win the plebiscite but our will is to be ignored because the people are not sovereign after all”

      You’re really struggling with understanding this aren’t you.

      With respect, I’m afraid its you who has a ‘warped’ version of the democratic process.

      The referendum is a vote for independence alone, it is not a vote for the SNP, or their version of ‘independence’, or for currency union or for EU membership or for Nato membership – it is purely a vote for independence.

      A yes vote will not give the SNP a mandate to enact their preferred version of ‘independence’ – the democratic will of the Scottish people if we vote yes will purely be for independence alone, not the SNP’s version of ‘independence’ or any of their policies.

      Let me know if you’re still struggling.

    360. Craig says:

      dkcm99,

      “Should the SNP announce that in the event of a no vote in September they will effectively disband?

      Personally I don’t think they would but I do think that they should. A no vote would consign “Scotland” to the dustbin of history and show itself to be a “country” unworthy of serious representation.”

      The SNP, shouldn’t disband. They should give up all political office and let the unionists create a situation where the unionists themselves will be forced to call another referendum sooner rather than later.

      Because the wrath of the Scottish people, on finding out how much they were betrayed, will and must fall on the unionists.

      The SNP can then participate in the referendum and definitely win it.

      What happens to the SNP after independence is another matter, although I would prefer it to continue as a broad based party.

      (See also my post a little bit above this.)

    361. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      its a simple fact.

      Here is what is “simple” in your small world:

      What you are repeating, ad nauseam, has been said by fools and trolls since Scotland regained its Parliament – “independence is great if only the SNP wasn’t leading the country into disaster.”

    362. Duggie says:

      “The Indy ref is happening in less than 4 months, the 3 points you are talking about are included along with a raft of others in the white paper, that’s what we’re voting for”

      According to the SNP themselves, the yes campaign and numerous others, what we’re voting for in the referendum is independence alone – not the SNP’s preferred version of it as set out in the white paper.

      Are they wrong, in your opinion?

    363. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      A yes vote will not give the SNP a mandate to enact their preferred version of ‘independence’

      You are tossing rubbish circular fashion into the ring. You had all that answered posts ago.

    364. Duggie says:

      “No. You are dissembling again”

      From the SNP’s white paper: “We will continue to be linked to other nations of the UK by five continuing unions: the EU; an ongoing Union of the Crowns; a Sterling Area; and as members
      of the NATO defence union”.

      Sounds to me like, as I said, they’re stating officially that Scotland will form a currency union and become a member of the EU and Nato.

      But you keep denying the evidence if it comforts you.

    365. Duggie says:

      “What you are repeating, ad nauseam, has been said by fools and trolls since Scotland regained its Parliament – “independence is great if only the SNP wasn’t leading the country into disaster.”

      Deary me, you’re getting desperate and resorting to abuse and trying to put words in my mouth.

      I’m quite happy for the SNP, or any other party, to lead Scotland before and after independence, as long as that is the democratic will of the Scottish people.

      I’m quite happy for Scotland to form a currency union and become an EU and Nato member after independence, as long as that is the democratic will of the Scottish people.

      However, the Scottish people are not being given any say on any of the latter policies, the SNP are planning to force Scotland into them without a mandate and without giving us a choice.

      You keep defending your party’s anti-democratic stance if you like, but I’m going to keep standing up for democracy and the democratic rights of the Scottish people.

    366. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      Sounds to me like ..

      Yes, your entire evening’s outing boils down to synthetic opinion. Once a point is seen to be lost, or not conceded, move on to the next point .. if you have one.

    367. Grouse Beater says:

      ‘ Duggie

      I’m quite happy for Scotland to form a currency union and become an EU and Nato member after independence, as long as that is the democratic will of the Scottish people.

      Ah, now it’s up to the “Scottish people,” not you at all. Well, we have moved on a step. Pity it is the “people of Scotland” who will decide but let’s not quibble.

    368. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      but I’m going to keep standing up for democracy and the democratic rights of the Scottish people.

      Must be cold and damp up there in the clouds.

      You first need policies, then to canvass support, then to be elected.

    369. Duggie says:

      “You are tossing rubbish circular fashion into the ring. You had all that answered posts ago”

      You, or someone else, attempted to claim the SNP had a mandate to enact their independence policies because they won the 2011 election – a claim I refuted by pointing out the fact that they were elected as a devolved government and none of their independence policies were ever voted on in that election or at any other time by the Scottish people.

      You, or someone else, then attempted to claim that a yes vote would give the SNP a mandate to enact their independence policies – I claim I again refuted by pointing out the fact that the SNP themselves have said the referendum is a vote for independence alone and not for their version of it.

      Was there an answer to my points that I missed, or is that it?

    370. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      Was there an answer to my points that I missed

      Yes, self-awareness.

    371. Peter Macbeastie says:

      Disagreeing with a statement is not the same as refuting it.

      The SNP has at least as much a mandate to decide what happens to Scotland as the Tories do for the UK.

      And at the risk of getting up your nose slightly, you appear to be on a crusade of one. Are you sure you’re right, or should we just all assume that’s your opinion as well? You’re right, everyone else is wrong.

    372. Duggie says:

      “Ah, now it’s up to the “Scottish people,” not you at all. Well, we have moved on a step”

      Er….from my very first post on this thread on the subject I have consistently stated that the decisions I’m referring to are up to the people of Scotland, nowhere have I said that I alone should make such decisions.

      If anyone its you who believes that one person alone should decide on currency union and EU/Nato membership, given that you’re desperately arguing against the democratic rights of the Scottish people, in favour of Salmond alone making that decision without giving us a choice and without a mandate to do so.

      I don’t like to criticise people, but quite frankly you’re a disgrace to the cause you claim to believe in.

    373. Boorach says:

      Duggie, just how old are you?

      Because over the past number of hours you remind me of nothing more than a toddler endlessly repeating “Why” to whatever logical answers you are given.

      Now, be a good boy, accept the word of the adult company and we’ll see about getting you a wee treat in the morning.

    374. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      but quite frankly you’re a disgrace to the cause you claim to believe in.

      Ah, a flash of honesty. Just a flash, mind.

      You’re not here to propose greater debate, you’re here to grate and denigrate.

    375. Desimond says:

      Duggie
      The guy who stands in Boots thinking ‘Oh Do I get ribbed or flavoured?’ before he’s even got a lumber!

    376. Duggie says:

      “Disagreeing with a statement is not the same as refuting it”

      Agreed. But providing indisputable evidence to back up that statement is.

      It is not my ‘opinion’ or ‘claim’ that the SNP have no mandate to force Scotland into a currency union – that is a simple straightforward fact.

      The people of Scotland have never voted for the SNP to enact a currency union, we have never been given a say electorally or in any other way as to whether we want a currency union, and a yes vote is not a vote for a currency union.

      So, quite simply, the SNP have no mandate to force us into one without giving us a choice.

    377. Boorach says:

      Duggie, you’re beginning to show your true colours now… It’s Salmond the dictator now is it?

      That’s right up there with ‘Braveheart’ in the unionist’s lexicon… use it and you concede the discussion.

    378. Duggie says:

      “You’re not here to propose greater debate, you’re here to grate and denigrate.”

      This from the individual who called me a ‘troll’ and an ‘idiot’ and insinuated that I was stupid earlier.

      Add ‘hypocrite’ to my description of you.

      It clears you’ve been well beaten in debate, now you’ve resorted to whining and sniping and squirming.

    379. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      that is a simple straightforward fact.

      Stating something blandly doesn’t make it a fact. You’re repeating crapology you posted ages back.

    380. Craig says:

      Duggie,

      Are you voting YES or NO or abstaining, GIVEN what is being proposed?

      Because that is the ONLY electoral choice on offer at the moment.

      As to what follows from 19th September, whether you like it or not, the SNP has a democratic mandate to govern Scotland until May 2016.

      What happens on constitutional matters between 19th September 2014 and March or May 2016, in the event of a YES vote, is not set in stone.

      But again the SNP were elected in 2011 on the clear understanding that a referendum would take place. So they have a democratic mandate to do what they think is best for Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.

      The SNP have also set out THEIR policies in the White Paper, so if a majority votes YES, it would be in the full knowledge of the SNP’s position.

    381. Duggie says:

      “Duggie, you’re beginning to show your true colours now… It’s Salmond the dictator now is it?”

      Again you’re putting words into my mouth.

      I’ll leave it for you to decide – what would you call someone who plans to force Scotland into a currency union and EU/Nato membership without a mandate and without giving the Scottish people our democratic right to have a say on those issues?

    382. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      It clears you’ve been well beaten in debate

      You have a lofty opinion of your limitations.

    383. Grouse Beater says:

      @ duggie

      Again you’re putting words into my mouth.

      An impossible task. It is already filled by your foot.

    384. Duggie says:

      “the SNP has a democratic mandate to govern Scotland until May 2016”

      As I’ve already explained, they were elected as a devolved government and have a mandate to govern as one.

      “The SNP have also set out THEIR policies in the White Paper, so if a majority votes YES, it would be in the full knowledge of the SNP’s position”

      According to the SNP themselves, as well as the yes campaign, a yes vote is a vote for independence alone, not for the SNP or any of their policies.

    385. Duggie says:

      “Stating something blandly doesn’t make it a fact. You’re repeating crapology you posted ages back.”

      Get back to me when you’re actually capable of refuting any of my points, I’m bored of your whining and abuse.

    386. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      As I’ve already explained

      Surely you’ve caught your tail by now?

      I understand what it is you insist on repeating endlessly: The elected government of the people of Scotland is guilty until proven usless.

    387. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      I’m bored of your whining and abuse.

      No one asked you to stay.

    388. Duggie says:

      “you’re beginning to show your true colours now”

      We’re certainly seeing the true colours of the likes of ‘Grouse Beater’ – this individual no doubt pretends that he believes in democracy and the democratic will of the Scottish people, and yet here he is vociferously desperately arguing with all his might in favour of his party’s plan to override our democratic rights and force through their preferred version of ‘independence’ without a mandate and without giving the people of Scotland any say whatsoever.

      Its clear that any small belief he may have in the sovereignty of the Scottish people is superseded by the rabid unquestioning belief he has in the ‘sovereignty’ of Salmond.

    389. Krackerman says:

      Duggie – Salmond is NOT forcing anyone into the EU or NATO he’s merely trying to maintain the status quo – if you don’t want to be a member then form a party and campaign to leave them post Independence.

      You’ll have more chance of getting your way in a free Scotland than you will under Westminster thumb…

    390. Duggie says:

      “I understand what it is you insist on repeating endlessly: The elected government of the people of Scotland is guilty until proven usless”

      Once again you’re putting words into my mouth.

      What I am repeating, and will keep repeating, is that the people of Scotland have a democratic sovereign right to decide on crucial issues that will affect an independent Scotland.

      For some reason you, despite no doubt pretending to believe in democracy and our democratic rights, are arguing vociferously against the above point.

    391. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      the rabid unquestioning belief he has in the ‘sovereignty’ of Salmond.

      There you go again: If only a toady was First Minister he would be more acceptable to Westminster’s authority.

      It is a devolved Parliament, it is NOT a devolved government. If it was, Cameron would never have signed the Edinburgh Agreement.

    392. Boorach says:

      If anyone its you who believes that one person alone should decide on currency union and EU/Nato membership, given that you’re desperately arguing against the democratic rights of the Scottish people, in favour of Salmond alone making that decision without giving us a choice and without a mandate to do so.

      You said it “Salmond alone”, sounds like an accusation of dictatorship to me!

      Also, the SNP have repeatedly said, since the publication of the ‘White Paper’ that it is their vision for a future Scotland. Vote Yes and you give them a mandate to pursue all that is laid out in it. Vote Yes for a CU, the EU and NATO membership.

    393. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      Once again you’re putting words into my mouth.

      More repetition, but at least you’re consistent.

    394. Duggie says:

      “Duggie – Salmond is NOT forcing anyone into the EU or NATO he’s merely trying to maintain the status quo”

      We’ve already been through this. Scotland is not a member of either the EU or Nato, so obviously becoming a member of those organisations is not the ‘status quo’.

      Likewise, Scotland is not in a currency union with a separate state.

      The people of Scotland have a democratic sovereign right to have a say on such crucial decisions, but sadly the likes of ‘grouse beater’ don’t appear to agree.

    395. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Duggie

      We’ve already been through this.

      Repetition?

    396. Krackerman says:

      “What I am repeating, and will keep repeating, is that the people of Scotland have a democratic sovereign right to decide on crucial issues that will affect an independent Scotland.”

      When has anyone spoke against this? The referendum is about Independence NOT membership of the EU or NATO. Salmond is NOT forcing us into them – WE ARE ALREADY IN THEM.

      Stop this mendacious attempt to create an issue that does not exist to slander the FM and the Independence movement. If you are so committed to Scottish democracy then I expect you to vote YES and work for a YES vote – only with a YES vote will Scotland have ANY democracy at all!

    397. Duggie says:

      “Also, the SNP have repeatedly said, since the publication of the ‘White Paper’ that it is their vision for a future Scotland. Vote Yes and you give them a mandate to pursue all that”

      The SNP, as well as the yes campaign, have also repeatedly said that a yes vote is not a vote for the SNP or their version of ‘independence’ or any of their policies.

      They can’t have it both ways – they can’t claim a yes vote isn’t a vote for them to ward off accusations that they completely dominate the independence debate, while at the same time claiming that it is a vote for them when it comes down to giving them a mandate for their policies.

    398. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      I’m going to take everyone’s lollipops away in this thread in a minute.

    399. Krackerman says:

      “We’ve already been through this. Scotland is not a member of either the EU or Nato, so obviously becoming a member of those organisations is not the ‘status quo’.”

      Are you right in the head? Scotland is clearly already a member of both through our current united parliament in Westminster. When the UK joined these institutions all the constituent representatives voted on it in Westminster and passed the motions to join.

    400. HandandShrimp says:

      I’m going to take everyone’s lollipops away in this thread in a minute</i.

      Not unreasonable in circumstances. We have been here before with NW and Tellen has people slashing their wrists with boredom over the Guardian with exactly the same refrain.

    401. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Hugh Wallace

      I first went to uni 21 years & had one of the last grants and first student loans.

      Mexico is hardly comparable with the USA or even the UK, for that matter, in wealth or in industry. With an estimated population of over 130 million, horrendous problems of poverty, rampant drug cartels, constant interference in its domestic affairs by the USA, border patrols and giant walls built to keep migrant workers out of California and Texas, and acres of impoverished farmers, yet …

      … it has free higher education.

      How does Mexico manage it, and why?

      Because it knows its priorities, and it has learned free education offers a greater chance of retaining indigenous talent within it borders for the benefit of its citizens and its economy.

    402. Desimond says:

      Can I suggest a new online species…..the Cyberbut!

      For those folk who can be heard saying ” I’m for Independence… but ……”

    403. Votadini Jeannie says:

      Duggie, you are John McIntyre OBE and I claim my £10!

    404. call me dave says:

      I don’t thing anything that Duggie has said is too far away from the mark.

      I have said on previous threads that

      1
      After a YES I would like an EU referendum

      2
      That after a YES the rUK (if a currency union) will want a long term contract 15 or 20 years. They wont want Scotland slipping the anchor and sailing off suddenly.

      But the first thing is to lay the independence egg from the present UK chicken. From that every thing is up for discussion. The present SG will have to make initial big decisions in the lead up to the first Scottish elections and carry the majority of Scots (of all political persuasions)with them.

      It is true that a voter will have to go into the polling station and make that leap of faith, some will do it easy, others with fingers crossed the rest will either renege or stay at home.

      Eveyone’s entitled to their view, I’m voting an easy YES.

      I happen to believe in independence and the SNP have managed, against all odds, to give me that chance. It wont be easy but it’s a journey I’m looking forward to.

    405. Kev says:

      @Votadini Jeannie

      Na, my moneys on Norsewarrior, can smell his brand of Salmond bunny boiler pish a mile off, think youl need to banish a troll very soon Rev before he hijacks anymore threads

    406. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Call me Dave

      After a YES I would like an EU referendum

      Why?

      If our government is mandated to negotiate and returns with terms that are generally acceptable – that’s what we pay them to do – why create another layer of bureacracy by a referendum on whether we should accept those conditions, or dump membership? We will have the chance to protest or lobby our member of parliament on that score.

      Isn’t that the empowerment we seek – real participation, with MSPs who take note of their constituent’s concerns? Councillors, community committees, and more local participation I learn from plans afoot.

      Have you seen how the most impoverished Spanish village in the Alpujarras mountains has benefitted from the EU – tarmaced roads, free internet, historic buildings preserved, and so on, and so forth?

    407. Chic McGregor says:

      I’m going to post my earlier unpostable post mainly as a test since the debate has moved backwards since then.

    408. Chic McGregor says:

      Nope still won’t fly.

    409. Craig says:

      Duggie,

      Do you have a vote in the referendum?

      Are you voting YES or NO or are you abstaining?

      Or have you not decided yet?

    410. RogueCoder says:

      Evening folks,

      Back late from work due to unforeseen cock-up on somebody else’s part, caught up on Alex Neil’s debate, before arriving to…. 400+ comments. Busy day.

      I see the Rev took a few hours for himself – well deserved Stu, and I hope your batteries are recharged.

      Had a skim read through the comments to get a gist of what’s going on. Surprised it seems to have been focused around a debate on the concept of “democracy” – or at least, largely one individual’s interpretation of it.

      The Yes house is a large one with many rooms and people of different opinions. This in part is what characterises it as a movement, not the manifesto of one party and certainly not of one individual.

      If I can use a film analogy for a moment – I’m a bit lover of cinematic art -it’s a bit like The Great Escape. Roger has an idea to bust out as many PoW’s as he can so that thousands of soldiers whom otherwise could have been usefully deployed defending Germany are forced to spend considerable resources rounding up prisoners. Now that’s all fine and dandy, but of course once outside of the wire, individuals have their own ideas about where they want to go and how to get there. And this is very much like the Yes camp.

      The point is that we’re all agreed on breaking out of the camp, and really everything after that is largely subservient. It serves no purpose to argue over routes through Spain or Switzerland if it stops you actually getting past the wire.

      Now Duggie, I’m NOT going to accuse you of being a troll, because I think there should be debate about the best way forward and in a democracy we need dissenting views. However, you have to admit it looks a tad suspicious that you’ve turned up and are having a go at the SNP on all of Better Together’s favourite scare lines.

      If you are a BT troll, I’d have to say hats off to you for a masterfully waged initiative – because it’s exactly what I would do, if were I a unionistL

      If you are a genuine Yes voter, then I would give the following council; it serves no purpose whatsoever to denigrate the political force that has made this referendum possible. You may have very different views about the policies that indy Scotland should take forward, and I’ll be the first to admit I don’t accept Alec’s vision for everything. But unless we win on Sept 18th it’s all for naught and your views – and everybody else’s – will be so much “could ha’ been, should ha’ been”.

      I refer you ALL to Mark Frankland’s excellent post earlier today and the British establishment’s mastery at divide and conquer tactics. If we really all do want an indy Scotland, then we have to work as a team – and that means accepting that your individual preferences won’t always hold sway.

      We’re in the last lap to a free and independent Scotland, folks. Let’s make this the best that we can be.

    411. Grouse Beater says:

      In the name of reason let sleeping Duggies lie.

    412. call me dave says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Sorry been doing something else for a while.

      Why EU ref..It’s democracy my view is EU is fine but it’s nice to be asked and get it down on paper. Others prefer EFTA.

      The main thing is a YES vote, the NO’s will not like it as YES will have burned their bridges so to speak, and they will have to make the best of it in an independent country along with the rest of us.
      There is always the reconciliation service three days after the vote…Aye right! 🙂

      There was me looking to Rangers, Hearts, Falkirk and Hibs in same league but not likely after tonight. Oh well.

    413. Weedeochandorris says:

      You protest too much “Duggie.” You’re either in or out, everything else is just a wee, attention grabbing game you’re playing. Guerilla Tactics, Spot the Hijacker or Enemy Within spring to mind. Is the Scotsman not enough fun these days? Not enough rats left on board?

      We have to put our trust in Alec Salmond and I do because he has brought us to where we are. We stand on the brink of acheiving something that others have had to fight, killl and die for, yet all we have to do is put a cross on a piece of paper. Anyone in Scotland who cannot see this fantastic opportunity to take our destiny in our own hands, like every other free country on this planet, needs their head examined.

      But, ofcourse, this is a personal choice we all have to make. Soon, we have to man or woman it up and decide where to put that cross, then we live with the consequences. Our children and grandchildren will have to live with our choices and we have to decide, now, for them. I would much rather live, and die knowing I did it my way, not as a slave to a foreign power in another country or, that I sold my children and grandchildren into that slavery either.

      So “Duggie” go quietly and contemplate, don’t try to convert the already converted. No, look into your own soul and remember history is beckoning and you will be judged.

    414. Cuilean says:

      Votescotland conducted a poll in November 2013, which consisted of one question: “Can Scotland afford to be independent?” Of the 1210 polled, 89% said YES and 10% said NO. It is conducting another poll now to be published on 30 May. The only poll question is “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

    415. Duggie says:

      “Are you right in the head? Scotland is clearly already a member of both through our current united parliament in Westminster”

      Don’t be silly. Scotland isn’t a ‘member’ of either Nato or the EU – take a look at the EU’s list of its 28 members for clear indisputable evidence, Scotland is not one of them.

      Scotland is no more a ‘member’ of the EU than Yorkshire, or Bavaria, or Catalonia is – all of them are part of an EU member, they are not ‘members’ themselves.

      Seriously, just 4 months out from the referendum and supposedly actively interested voters are still this unaware?!

    416. Duggie says:

      “If our government is mandated to negotiate and returns with terms that are generally acceptable”

      Our government isn’t mandated to form a currency union, or negotiate to become an EU or Nato member, that’s exactly the point.

      Quite frankly its utterly revolting that so many so-called ‘independence’ supporters on this site, who pretend to believe in ddemocracy and the sovereignty of the Scottish people, are not only refusing to stand up for the democratic rights of the people of Scotland, but are actively arguing vociferously against the democratic right of the Scottish people to have a say on such crucial issues as the currency union.

    417. Duggie says:

      “Have you seen how the most impoverished Spanish village in the Alpujarras mountains has benefitted from the EU”

      Right….so because you think the EU is beneficial that makes it perfectly okay for the SNP to force us to become a member of it without a choice?

      What sort of ‘democracy’ is that?

    418. Duggie says:

      “If you are a genuine Yes voter, then I would give the following council; it serves no purpose whatsoever to denigrate the political force that has made this referendum possible”

      So you’re saying that because the SNP enabled the referendum that gives them free reign to ride roughshod over the democratic rights of the Scottish people?

      I disagree, the whole point of independence is that it gives us more democracy and more say, it isn’t any sort of independence at all if its going to result in the SNP forcing us to accept their preferred version of it without a choice and without them having a mandate to do so.

    419. MajorBloodnok says:

      @RogueCoder

      I thought the “Escape from Stalagluft 112B” analogy was excellent.

      In that context I see my role as walking around the compound surreptitiously letting sub-soil fall out of my trouser legs. We’re not actually digging a tunnel, I just like doing it.

    420. Grouse Beater says:

      As expected, wee Duggie has snuck back in the night to flip the finger at us.

    421. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Dave

      Others prefer EFTA.

      That’s an interesting point.

      I’ve never subscribed to the domino theory – first coined in the Indo-China wars: “If Vietnam goes communist then the whole of … et cetera.” By the same yardstick, one referendum doesn’t imply a plethora on every subject we don’t want our government to decide. So long as there are mechanisms to involve us in debate on key issues so long can we avoid the cost and massive delay of referenda.

      Remember, we elect representatives not only to get us the best deal, but also to reject offers that have conditions attached that are unacceptable.

      We’ve had to listen to the boring lie for months now of EU membership automatically including the Euro. If EU member states, seeing us a wealthy state overnight, asked Scotland to ditch the pound sterling and accept the Euro I’d expect the administration in power to advise us it is a good clause or an unacceptable condition, and to give us cogent reasons.

    422. Barontorc says:

      Call me an intolerant rascal if you will, but ‘Duggie’ has well exceeded blog domination boundaries and it’s a red card from me. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. How dare Rev to take a day-off, now, see what happens!

    423. desimond says:

      I miss Duggie.

      Oh come on, who doesnt like playing with a wee Dug?

    424. fergie35 says:

      All’s quiet, has someone taken Duggie out for a walk and a pee and a poo in the park?
      Take it he doesnae like the SNP then? Never has so much time been wasted explaining so much to someone so rantfull and obtuse.

    425. Bob W says:

      @Duggie

      I disagree, the whole point of independence is that it gives us more democracy and more say, it isn’t any sort of independence at all if its going to result in the SNP forcing us to accept their preferred version of it without a choice and without them having a mandate to do so.

      What would you prefer, hiatus until independence day or the day after a yes vote, the dissolution of the Scottish government and an election called (is this even possible under present legislation) to elect a new Scottish government? In either case, you personally will probably not get the totality of what you desire/ espouse. Would either meet with your demand for ‘democracy’? If the latter and the SNP are elected to govern Scotland again, would you still claim democratic deficit (‘ SNP riding roughshod over the democratic rights of the Scottish people’)? Alternatively we could stand still until the next scheduled election for the Scottish parliament and have an even shorter time to negotiate.

      I would suggest that a yes vote in the referendum gives the parliament of Scotland the ‘mandate’ required to negotiate on behalf of the voters of Scotland, you, from what I have read in this thread, would disagree, I may have misinterpreted your stance.

      Given that the current government of Scotland is the SNP and Alex Salmond has said that the wider body politic would be invited to participate in any negotiations, in effect a negotiating team of national interest, rather than what is described in your posts as ‘the SNP forcing us to accept their preferred version’, surely this is not indicative of a dictatorial/ non-democratic party.

      Given your apparent dislike of the EU option, what would be your plan to repatriate the thousands of EU citizens resident in Scotland and those Scots resident in other EU countries, what would be your solution to the barriers to trade which would ensue from such and exit? Is the solution to join EFTA, or would that be yet another undemocratic option, forced on the people of Scotland.

      As an afterthought, although Scotland, as you have stated, is not a discrete member of the EU, every Scot is an EU citizen and can move freely within it’s boundaries, every company in Scotland can trade within the EU without trade barriers and to continue these freedoms ‘the status quo’, membership of the EU is essential.

      FYI, I am not and never have been a member of any political party.



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