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Wings Over Scotland


Selective listening

Posted on September 04, 2016 by

Eternally angry Conservative MSP Adam Tomkins has been even shoutier than usual this week, purple-faced with rage about the fact that the SNP has decided to spend some of its own money (not taxpayer cash) asking people for their opinions.

angrytomkins

It’s a curious argument from a member of a party that’s been rejected in successive elections in Scotland in 1964, 1966, 1970, 1974, 1974 again, 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992, 1997, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2015 and 2016, but keeps turning up and barking orders anyway. You’d think the first 50 years might qualify as a hint.

And there’s one more awkward fact the crotchety former republican glosses over:

tonkinsga

Glasgow said No to you, Professor. And that’s a very polite way of putting it. You got barely more than a quarter of the votes of the winner in your constituency, and less than half the votes of the runner-up, even though Labour’s vote was imploding.

Glasgow Anniesland, in the vernacular of the region, told you unambiguously and very resoundingly to GTF, just as Glasgow and Scotland has been doing to your party for generations. When are YOU finally going to listen?

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    1. 05 09 16 12:08

      Selective listening | Referendum 2018 | Scoop.it

    476 to “Selective listening”

    1. Smallaxe says:

      He, like all of his ilk,only have ears for”Kerching”

      Peace Always

    2. heedtracker says:

      Have to admire this toryboy’s shiny brass neck though. Or to use Prof T style torboy speak, “we” have to admire his neck.

    3. Mislein says:

      Funny that. No means no except when it doesn’t.

    4. winifred mccartney says:

      It’s the ‘colonial’ mindset of the tories- we know best and YOU WILL LISTEN and do as you are told. Well they can put union jacks on everything (which we will never buy) but we will not be told again by arrogant, selfish, self-centred, lying unionists.

    5. Macart says:

      Mr Tomkins, much like all Tories, appear to suffer from a lack of irony recognition and a surplus of shouty hypocrisy.

      Who knew?

    6. Cuilean says:

      Former republican?

      Tell me more, please.

    7. galamcennalath says:

      Tomkins is a North British Tory par excellence, frustrated and angry that all the exceptionalism and entitlement are being ignored by the rest of us.

    8. I wonder if he has a shortbread tin collection?

    9. Papadox says:

      The conservative and UNIONISTS party mantra is and always has been “don’t do as I do, do as I say”. Remember they are the masters, we are the cannon fodder, what do we know? Just as we are told. Yes massa!

    10. Jim Thomson says:

      If young prof. Tompkins was writing an academic paper, how much credence would he pay to an outcome predicated on falsification and cheating?

      We need to know.

    11. I have the very strong impression that he is out of the same box as Michael Gove. He thinks he is clever and the rest of us are all stupid – and that we have all forgotten that recently or conveniently he moved from being a shouty left wing republican socialist.

    12. Jim Thomson says:

      Ananurrahing, if he is pontificating outside his professorial remit, why should we even bother with the prefix “professor”.

      Just saying.

    13. louis.b.argyll says:

      He (Tomkins) is a state sponsored liar.

    14. call me dave says:

      Ah but! Their voice is to be heard and we’ve got to listen and then reject them at the ballot box. Always!Always!

      Rennie loses frontbench spokeswoman in gender balance row

      https://archive.is/C1p9z

      PS:

      Billy Kay:
      This mornings programme. Depressing stuff.
      Take your porridge first.

      Grampian is now one of the strongest Scots-speaking areas – but the pressures against the Doric now are just as powerful as they were in the 16th century

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07qfx3m#play

    15. Famous15 says:

      A Tory former Chancellor of the Exchequer has quietly boasted that the wonderful Theresa May is making a triumph of her lifelong ambition of completing the work of Margaret Thatcher.

      Ruth your leader’s day job is completing the work of destroying Scotland and thrashing the working class! Separation cannot come soon enough.Separate from the Tories to let us join the big wide world. Vile Tomkins should attend an anger management course.

    16. Roboscot says:

      Is this part of ‘Ulsterisation’: just saying ‘No!’all the time?

    17. Breeks says:

      Be fair. Ruthie Davidson has built a career from coming fourth, butting in, shouting things, and generally not listening to people.

      Coming third is progress, and excuses Mr Tomkins from having to sit on a buffalo. Thank the Lord says Tesco, suspiciously eyeing their Scotch brand beef burgers…

    18. Grouse Beater says:

      What carpetbaggers such as the iffy Prof have in common with the likes of deadheads such as Ed Balls besides each and every one masquerading as politicians is, for all their feverish argument over Scotland staying within the corrupt UK they don’t actually give a damn about the health of Scotland, or the happiness of its population.

      All they care about is England’s wealth and England’s power. In that straight jacket no one is going to exercise modesty or humility. We have to kick them out for good, and the good of all. They don’t have any politics worth discussing.

      It isn’t about Scotland. It never was.

      Your weekend reading

      It’s Just My Opinion: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9lS
      The Luck of the Irish: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9gZ
      Café Society – a review: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9pU

    19. gordoz says:

      O/T

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Dave see last few postings on previous shortbread thread
      about radio station / PC available :):):)

    20. Stoker says:

      Rev wrote:
      “Glasgow said No to you, Professor. And that’s a very polite way of putting it. You got barely more than a quarter of the votes of the winner in your constituency, and less than half the votes of the runner-up, even though Labour’s vote was imploding.”

      “Glasgow Anniesland, in the vernacular of the region, told you unambiguously and very resoundingly to GTF, just as Glasgow and Scotland has been doing to your party for generations. When are YOU finally going to listen?”

      Yes, and not only that, but Lindsay Bruce called him out for the liar that he is on WOS Twitter yesterday. Well done, Lindsay! We need a lot more of these wee factoids more regularly:

      “@ProfTomkins And you said our EU membership would be safe, along with HMRC jobs, shipbuilding, oil, renewables, and pensions. You lied.”

    21. Macart says:

      May on Marr show effectively ruling out any influence from ‘elected assemblies’ during Brexit negotiations. Also refusing to engage with Marr on question of blocking a future Scottish referendum.

      So we’re clear then.

      Doesn’t recognize Scotland’s conclusive remain vote. Doesn’t want Scotland to have influence on Brexit proceedings and absolutely doesn’t want the Scottish population to reassess their relationship with political union in the face of recent events.

      (see under complete failure post indyref1 of promises, assurances, economic, political and constitutional carnage etc)

    22. Brian Powell says:

      I would suggest they don’t listen because there are folk in Scotland who are not willing to take the action that will turn the rejection into a reality for Scotland’s constitutional future.

      Folks who wait for some where else to fix it for them, for their bigger party to fix it for them, even though that party is now sinking into irrelevance.

      Folks afraid to react to a Brexit vote that leaves Scotland in Westminster Tory hands for a very long time to come. Yet expect the Scottish Government to protect them for Tory policies.

    23. That wouldn’t be that sectarian bigot who has at least two jobs and is trousering £1200 a week of our tax pounds working part time as an unelected Tory Place man in Edinburgh?

      You mean ‘the’ WATP Professor Adam Tomkins who had an orgasm praising IDS’ Social Security Reforms?
      The same Two Face who travelled from Left Wing Republicanism to Ultra Right Tory Fascsim in the blink of a NO vote?

      From his Wiki entry:-
      “Professor Adam Tomkins is a Scottish academic and politician. He is the John Millar Professor of Public Law at the University of Glasgow School of Law and was elected a Member of the Scottish Parliament for Glasgow in the Scottish Parliament election, 2016.[1] He is shadow cabinet secretary for communities, social security, the constitution and equalities.[2] Until 2015 Tomkins was constitutional advisor to the House of Lords Constitution Committee. From 2015 he has acted as constitutional advisor to the Scotland Office and Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell.”

      For a man who was roundly rejected by the ‘overwhelming majority’ of the good people of Anniesland, he sure knows how to burrow his way into wee sinecures in the Scottish Branch of the elitist English Establishment.
      To think this man got to sit in a room with a Lord and decide Scotland’s Devo-Minimus-as-possible future.
      We are listening, Oh bigoted sectarian gravy trainer.
      Are you?
      Is Glasgow Uni still paying this freeloading ‘lead weight’ a wage?
      If so, I demand to know why?

    24. Ken500 says:

      The 2nd rate rejects. Whoever employed Tomkins at Edinburgh University needs their head examined. Troughing on Scottish taxpayers money. A complete fraud. The Tory/Unionists are just appalling. More of Tory chaos. Brexit. T. May is a liar. Independence can’t come soon enough. Westminster is full of Unionists crooks, liars, child molestors and fraudsters. They are a disgrace.

    25. carjamtic says:

      Maybe all the overinflated assessments,(caricatured by the MSM/EBC) of how bad things will be for iScotland,has had an impact on voters ?.

      Hope and fear maybe enduring features of the human condition,but do we want voters to think “it won’t really matter anyway ?”

      Voters have now had a ‘cooling off’ period,maybe they are looking at UKOK in the cold light of day and scratching their heads,maybe some NO voters are experiencing ‘buyers remorse’,maybe they now,want to move away from the Better Together stick and move towards the iScotland carrot?.

      Only one way to find out,ask them,what’s so difficult about that ?, or are these unwelcome tories privately smirking,although Scotland’s people are really unhappy about Brexit…’fuckem’ they don’t really matter anyway…I would not be surprised,looks like the FM has caught them on the hop.

      Survey done 🙂

    26. Effijy says:

      Bully Boy Dictators Like the Mad Professor don’t listen, they just impose their supposed superior objectives against the well being of the majority.

      As the Rev rightly states, Scotland has never given the Tories a majority vote in a 50 year plus span of years
      in any General Election, Council Election, Holyrood Election,
      European Parliamentary Election.

      You must be talking about roughly 40 of the last 40 Elections
      the Scottish Electorate have made it quite clear that they DO Not Want the Tory Party Running Anything In Scotland!

      If old Prof Bodkin would like to check with his counterpart
      in the Maths Dept, the Electorate has made it patently obvious that they want nothing tom do with him!

      The few votes that he did receive in that district will have come Not from informed Scots who put their own nation ahead of the colonial masters, but vile bigots in the Orange Order and religious hate filled anti-catholic
      football supporters.

      Normal, Balanced, Hard Working members of that community can see right through you and the disaster that is Westminster Tory Party.

      What is it about the “NO WE DON’T WANT YOU OR THE TORIES”
      message that Scotland has sent out consistently for generations?

      Perhaps the Prof can explain where all the promises his party made to steal the Independence Referendum are?

      1. Home Rule, a Near Federal State (Complete and utter lie)

      2, Continuation of £3 Billion Renewable Energy Projects
      (Cancelled because it’s Scottish)

      3, 13 New Navy Frigates for the Clyde.( Now Zero Ships)

      4, 3,000 Scottish HMRC Jobs secured.
      ( All transferred to England)

      5, £1 Billion Carbon Capture project for Peterhead. (Cancelled)

      6. Only way to keep Scotland in Europe is to vote No.
      (Although 2 out of 3 Scots voted remain, we are to leave)

      7, Only way for Scot’s pensions to survive, is to vote No.
      ( Complete Lie as pensions were already guaranteed)

      8. No Blood Transfusions in Scotland if Independent)
      (You guessed it, complete lie as service has no link to politics)

      9.No transplant surgery possible in Independent Scotland.
      (Another passenger on the Lie train heading for the buffers

      10. We Love you!
      That might explain why they hid the McCrone report for decades, stole the oil revenue, set up EVEL, and tried to rip off £7,000,000,000 from Scotland when negotiating some insipid new powers.

      PS BBC Bias against Scotland petition now at 90,868 signatures:

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    27. DerekM says:

      Three words Tomkins Conservative election fraud.

    28. heedtracker says:

      I have the very strong impression that he is out of the same box as Michael Gove.

      Prof T would love that. Gove’s a far bigger tory hitter than Tomkins if only because Gove’s taken a very different route to planet toryboy greatness. All you can really say about a chancer like Tomkins is that he’s the living embodiment of how the blue tories used the red ones in Scotland 2014, then turned round and devoured them.

      Prior to ref 1, 2014, unelected by anyone Tomkins was always popping down to Westminster to appear in front of SLabour dominated Scottish committees, where he’d assure all the SLabour crew that Scotland will never be independent. All of that SLabour committee have now gone, just like that.

    29. Cadogan Enright says:

      excellent summary – has anyone ever attended a class with this clown? or is his day job just a sinecure?

      http://tinyurl.com/hsrtna5

    30. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Tomkins said “NO”

      I said “YES”

      Material changes have happened since IndyRef 1 in 2014 and Tomkins and his ilk can say “No” again in IndyRef2 if they want to.

      I will be saying “Yes” again.

    31. Jamur says:

      Grade A zoomer.
      Non stop pish.

    32. Breastplate says:

      All these rabid Unionists don’t seem to understand that many people have simply changed their minds.
      They are frothing at the mouth with the though, that they are now the minority.
      I find it all incredibly entertaining.

    33. Stoker says:

      ronald russell wrote:“I wonder if he has a shortbread tin collection?”

      I bet he does, along with his sash and bowler hat!
      _____

      PS folks – beware of the commercial con in the post at 10:04am by “Effijy” – be careful about who you give your private details to. 38Degrees has previous for doing the dirty on ‘Yes’ supporters but “Effijy” continues to help them gather your personal details, be warned!

      Is it any wonder why Scotland is repeatedly shat on? Truely? When they can do what they like to us and there will still be those who continue to help them out and work for them. Think!

    34. G4jeepers says:

      Re: The National Survey

      Aims to speak to 2 million No voters.
      What if the 2 million can’t be found?
      What if the silent majority does not exist?

    35. Breastplate says:

      That should read, thought

    36. louis.b.argyll says:

      So, according to a very poor interview with the latest Conservative prime minister.. a second referendum is not required because..’ Polling suggests..blah blah.. ‘

      Teresa May is following the PR tricks of Tony Blair MP (I’M TORY PLAN B).

      Memorising certain soundbites,
      ccasually dismissing questions,
      concentrating on pre-rehearsed simplifications, so that every answer appears to explain
      how the question itself,
      must be wrong,
      because ‘we see it like this’..

    37. Dr Jim says:

      When Tories say we want to engage with everybody they mean you will all listen to us

      When the SNP say we want to engage with everybody they mean we want to hear what you have to say

      The SNP then produce a means of doing that very thing then get accused of snooping by the Tories who say there’s been enough talking and we’re not having any more

      Tomkins employs the very popular Yoon argument that goes something like “Shutup” “Shutup” “Shutup” “I’m talking and I’m better than you” and another “Shutup” for good measure at the end

    38. Smallaxe says:

      Jack Collatin:

      Do I perceive from your post that this”fella”
      means Jackshit to oneself?:-)

      Peace Always

    39. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Reverend Campbell,
      OK we understand, you dont like Adam Tomkins. But you should not let your hostility blind you to the point he is making.
      I can understand why unionists are not that keen on a second independence and I understand why this is a massive problem for nationalists. You are a clever guy Reverend, why cant you understand?

    40. Dr Jim says:

      Guess what’s on the UKs and America’s agenda at the G20 that we all rejected and the EU has just rejected out of hand

      TTIP

      70% members of the House of Lords own shares in private health care companies

      They do love a good engagement those Tories

    41. Grouse Beater says:

      Macart on May:

      Worth repeating:

      So we’re clear then.

      “May doesn’t recognize Scotland’s conclusive remain vote. Doesn’t want Scotland to have influence on Brexit proceedings, and doesn’t want the Scottish population to reassess their relationship with political union in the face of recent events.”

    42. louis.b.argyll says:

      Silent majority?

      Never heard of them!

    43. Is he Jim Murphy in disguise?

    44. kailyard rules says:

      The Professor of Pish displaying his arrogance again. Why would we listen to an “also ran” like him? Given his appointed place at Holyrood with a D (for defeated) grade.

      KevinH and adamT. The Tworisible Twins.

    45. Grouse Beater says:

      Richard MacKinnon: You should not let your hostility blind you to the point he is making.

      The ‘point’ the iffy Prof makes is, those of a political hue he detests should not be given a second chance in a democracy – a doctrine entirely at odds with democracy.

      And if it was implemented would mean carpetbaggers such as Tomkins might be picking raspberries somewhere in Perthshire instead of picking the taxpayer’s pocket.

    46. Ken500 says:

      The US and Japan tell May to get lost. Along with the EU members.

      The Tory/Unionists are a disgrace.

    47. Grouse Beater says:

      Keith Vaz – another upstanding Westminster politician leading a double life, knowing it might ruin his career and reputation once and for all.

      I prefer my politicians to confine risk taking to that which they hope will increase the well-being of their constituents.

    48. Dr Jim says:

      @Richard MacKinnon

      Adam Tomkins represents who exactly as a list MSP who was parachuted into Holyrood on the list vote where you could have put up a dog to gain as many votes as he did

      The First Minister won the election, get over it, the people have spoken, why can’t you accept the result that the people of Scotland are clearly wanting
      Which is, a SNP government they trust to run the country for the third successive historical time with the highest approval ratings of any political party ever

      Get yourself a better argument other than “Shutup and listen to me”

    49. Macart says:

      @Grouse Beater

      She may as well have cut to the chase and simply said ‘shut up and eat your cereal’.

      So much for ‘willing to listen to options’as she claimed back in July.

    50. Stoker says:

      I wrote in a previous post, re; Tomkins:

      “Yes, and not only that, but Lindsay Bruce called him out for the liar that he is on WOS Twitter yesterday. Well done, Lindsay! We need a lot more of these wee factoids more regularly:

      Slight correction to that, it wasn’t yesterday, it was on 02/09/16.

    51. Smallaxe says:

      “fella” see post @ 10:38am

      f_ _ck_ _g: en_ _l_nd: l_ v_ng: ly_ _g: ar_ _h_le

      Fill in the missing letters,in your mind only please.Thank you.

    52. Peter says:

      “We” said a lot of things.
      “We” said that jobs and pensions would be safe.
      “We” said Scotland would get extensive new powers.
      “We” said that we would be ‘Better Together’.

      None of those things “we” said proved to be true.

      We also said we don’t want any truck with Farridge. We said we wanted a fair benefits system – without ‘sanctions’.
      We wanted to stay within the EU…
      We said we didn’t really want any Unionist MPs (can you really take Fluffy seriously? I mean… cute beard though, a bit like Corbyn’s!)
      We said we wanted a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood.

      When will the Tories (blue, yellow or “red”) stop whingeing about how unfair democracy is and just *accept what we said?*

      Not such a bad idea to go back and check… ?

    53. Breastplate says:

      @ Richard MacKinnon

      “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
      ? Samuel Adams

      That’s you that is. That’s you and you can’t take it back.

    54. msean says:

      I have been saying NO to Tories since I first voted,yet I still have them.

    55. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Dr Jim and Grousebeater,
      I think the point Tomkins is making is that unionists will not accept the legitmacy of a second referendum. Why should they? Put your animosity aside and think about this. It is a huge barrier for the SNP. Say the nationalists set a date for a seceond referendum and unionists campaign to ignore it and not vote. Sturgeon understands this and I cannot see away around it.
      Funny that, it wasnt devolution that killed independence after all, it was Eck’s referendum.

    56. zen broon says:

      Henceforth to be known as “Professor 14%”

    57. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Breastplate,
      I only make what I think is a relevent point. That is a seceond referendum that is ignored by unionists will not be seen as legitimate, binding if you like. I am stating a fact not passing any opinion.

    58. Clootie says:

      Breastplate 11:24

      Nice quote which needs no further elaboration from me 🙂

    59. heedtracker says:

      Richard MacKinnon says:
      4 September, 2016 at 10:46 am
      Reverend Campbell,
      OK we understand, you dont like Adam Tomkins. But you should not let your hostility blind you to the point he is making.
      I can understand why unionists are not that keen on a second independence and I understand why this is a massive problem for nationalists. You are a clever guy Reverend, why cant you understand?

      But red and blue yoon culture wants it both ways, vote NO for devo-max and federal UKOK 2014, which may well have swung it for yoons but maybe not.

      To Prof T’s toryboy BBC Scotland led angry shut up and fix the shithole that is Scotland 2016 what you’re dividing.

      Confused.com, UKOK style.

    60. Sandy says:

      @Richard MacKinnon, if you don’t vote, you don’t count. I’d almost welcome a ‘Don’t vote, its not legitimate’ campaign from the Better Together side. An 80% Yes vote would be a pretty clear mandate for independence and let the non-voters fulminate at their own stupidity afterwards.

      In addition, there is also the benchmark of the last referendum. Greater than 2m Yes votes is also a clear benchmark of legitimacy.

    61. seanair says:

      Tomkins–ha, ha, ha. Revealed by the Rev.
      Scottish Parliament reconvenes on Monday. Surely some SNP MSP could casually ask a question to be answered by a Government spokes person, exposing Tomkins as the nutter he is.?

    62. Tinto Chiel says:

      Breastplate: that’s a belter of a quotation by Samuel Adams. It sums up what we are up against.

      He must have known quite a few Cringers in the thirteen colonies.

      Is WoS a “committee of correspondence”?

      Confusion to our enemies.

    63. clan rossy says:

      TOMKINS

      FROM ALL OF SCOTLAND

      GET TAE FUCK

    64. Breastplate says:

      @ Richard MacKinnon,
      I understand that argument and dismiss it.
      I would rather be in possession of a winning Yes vote that the Nawbags can sneer at in one hand than nothing at all in the other.

    65. HandandShrimp says:

      Dear Mr Tompkinson’s Schooldays

      Not as big a No as we have said to your horrible party for the last 25 years…but do you listen? Do you feck!

    66. Smallaxe says:

      Richard MacKinnon says:
      That is a seceond referendum that is ignored by unionists will not be seen as legitimate, binding if you like.

      “WOT” ME WORRY?

      PEACE ALWAYS.

    67. HandandShrimp says:

      I see Ruth the Irrelevant is questioning whether the Listening exercise is electorally legal.

      I find that particularly ironic from a Party that is under umpteen police investigations into electoral fraud.

    68. Breastplate says:

      Clothe and Tinto,
      That quote has been put up a few times by other Wingers but always worth another outing.

    69. Breastplate says:

      Clootie and Tinto,
      That quote has been put up a few times by other Wingers but always worth another outing.

    70. heedtracker says:

      Funny that, it wasnt devolution that killed independence after all, it was Eck’s referendum.”

      Wouldn’t actually Delivering The Vow kill independence? UKOK promised Devo-Max. So what did we get, raise tax powers, but not lower them. And that’s it. Road signs maybe.

      2014 and 2015, UKOk spivs like Tomkins used to simper stuff like, The Vow has been delivered because it must not be detrimental to England and Scotland.

      EVEL pretty much sums up UKOK reality though, let alone their list of reneged vote NO, vote tory electoral bollox.

    71. Ruby says:

      Adam Tomkins are you listening?

      You are correct we did say NO to Brexit hence the reason Nicola Sturgeon is listening.

      Ach I think I might go off topic or return to the ‘Shortbread tin’ thread ‘cos quite frankly my dears I don’t care what Adam Tomkins has to say!

      Adam Tomkins, Kezia Dugdale, J K Rowling, David Torrance & many others are on my Barbara Cartland list (authors I never read)

    72. Grouse Beater says:

      McKinnon:“I think the point Tomkins is making is that unionists will not accept the legitmacy of a second referendum.”

      What the iffy Prof won’t accept is, the political landscape has altered radically and irrevocably.

      What he and those like him are trying to do it bag it and nail it down. He is trying to turn the clock back. That has to be resisted as powerfully as possible.

      And it will be.

    73. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Sandy, An 80% Yes vote on a 40% turnout wont be recognised as legitimate.

    74. ScottishPsyche says:

      The questionnaire is asking the reasons why people voted the way they did? Are the Tories afraid the outcome of this listening exercise is that their lies will be discovered? The upshot would possibly be massive support for another Referendum?

      Is this why they are refusing to engage? To take part and admit that your reasons for voting No were purely British Nationalism would blow many of their arguments apart.

      Regarding Andrew Collier, I heard his contribution this morning and was truly shocked. Mandy Rhodes’ book is about to be published, the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon have no influence over that as these dates are set months in advance. That the newspapers chose to focus on one small paragraph is their choice.

      With Comms people like him, you realise why the SNP were so badly portrayed in the Press. When these people leave the SNP, they behave like jilted lovers. It looks like better screening is required!

    75. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Small axe,
      See my reply to Sandy 1212hrs.

    76. Gerry says:

      http://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000185466.pdf
      15 page pdf summary of Japan gettin May telt.

    77. Macbeda says:

      If Tomkins got 14% of the vote but only around 50% of people voted then only 7% of voters voted for him.

      Or let’s put it another way 93% of voters didn’t vote.

      That’s a pretty big majority who said no to Tomkins.

    78. Ruby says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      4 September, 2016 at 11:54 am

      I see Ruth the Irrelevant is questioning whether the Listening exercise is electorally legal.

      Ruby replies

      You would have thought the ‘Tory Professor’ would have known the answer to that question and prevented Tory Ruth from making a fool of herself.

    79. carjamtic says:

      R MacKinnon

      Not legitimised,by the all powerful tories,you mean,like the immigrants,that are currently,not being legitimised by the all powerful tories…..take your argument,your point and ram it..

      People’s lives matter.

      #shallowloser

    80. Grouse Beater says:

      McKinnon: “An 80% Yes vote on a 40% turnout wont be recognised as legitimate.”

      That’ll be why the Tories rule the UK often with a majority of only 32% of votes cast.

      Keep showing your ignorance of events so we can ignore you.

    81. Dr Jim says:

      @Richard MacKinnon

      You said “put your animosity aside”

      I say why should we do that when it was the Tories who created it by bad Governance, Electoral fraud and misuse and collusion with the Britsh State media to decieve Scotland and it’s people out of Billions and then claim Scotland had no money even after we exposed their own documents to show they were liars and thieves both Blue and Red Tory alike

      The Tories have not won an election in Scotland for fifty years yet have the temerity to inform us of their requirements as to our behaviour
      The English Parliament, for that’s what it is given that no matter the amount of Scottish representatives sent there can never win a vote as they are outvoted on every issue by weight of numbers by all English Parties making the “English Parliament” a dictatorship and totally unrepresentative of any democratic Union

      “Put your animosity aside” you say

      As with Adam Tomkins, whatever allegiance you have to whatever country, it is not Scotland therefore your opinion on matters Scottish is an irrelevance

      There is a requirement to being Scottish and it’s not birth or name or colour or creed but the desire to be so

      You and Mr Tomkins applications are rejected, his was clearly at the ballot box with his 4.057 votes from the Rangers end of the Orange Order for that was the platform on which the “Ruth Davidson for a strong opposition party”
      fought the last sectarian racist bigot campaign on

      So far on this site people have shown you restraint and good manners in their replies, for my own part this will not continue

      We’re done here

    82. Lochside says:

      ‘Professor’ Tomkins ( sounds like a character out of ‘TIN TIN) has two positions of infliuence of power in Scotland that are both unelected and unsupported. The first position, that of a list msp was via the now increasingly discredited system of placemen and women who have been rejected at the ballot box but are projected over the heads of the electorate into the SP where they can vote and pontificate and propagate pish to an eager colonial media.

      His second position is a moot one. No doubt he has the qualifications academically to fulfil the nominal role. However, more sinisterly he has seemingly spent a greater part of this period in the halls of academe absent, and fulfilling the role of willing lackey and mouthpiece for validating Westminster’s endless attempts to subjugate Scotland’s legal and political existence. In addition, he has continued to be a very visible participant in expressing populist lies on, social media, in regard to the catastrophic outcomes that would all ensue from an oil rich and self supporting small country like Scotland becoming Self governing.

      The fact that his predictions have been completely wrong and based on his own personal assertions, not forensic analysis, the good professor should be examining his own pronouncements and predictions in the light of reality and awarding himself a ‘F’ for failure.

      This individual, if a normal run of the mill academic, would one expect to be mortified by his pathetic performance on all these public forums including the SP. However, when his history is examined closely, we see a left wing republican who like a chrysalis transmogrifies into a dull and dusty unionist faintly orange moth instead of a vibrant radical butterfly. Why?, how did someone with his radical early credentials be allowed to access the Houses of Lords and Commons at such an elevated and trusted level?

      Could it be that the Prof. like Alistair Darling were not what they seemed at University? It is a well worn tactic for the UK’s intelligence services to ‘encourage’ impressionable students into joining radical groups. Only for these individuals to show their true colours years later…Dennis Healey anyone?

    83. Smallaxe says:

      Richard MacKinnon says:
      4 September, 2016 at 12:14 pm
      Small axe,
      See my reply to Sandy 1212hrs.

      Rich ard,fill in the blanks@ 11:20

      Peace Always:-)

    84. heedtracker says:

      That’ll be why the Tories rule the UK often with a majority of only 32% of votes cast.

      In many ways tories like Prof T show how democratic toryboy’s actually are, if you’re prepared to fight to the bitter end to defend UKOK establishment elite.

      Who else but the UKOK toryboys would even accept someone like Tomkins, who was a Trotsky anti monarchist in his Scotland region, yet now rages away at Scotland’s fledgling democracy, often far harder than any Scottish tory. And this ex Trot’s rage at Scottish democracy will only be abated when they do finally sell off Holyrood for a Tesco 24.

      Beware the zeal of the far right convert.

    85. DerekM says:

      And what makes you think the Rev hates Tomkins Richard hmmm or maybe he is doing the job we pay him to do,i know that is a hard concept for yoons to understand actually doing the job you are paid to do.

      Oh and if people choose not to vote in an election or referendum that is their choice if the result goes the way they dont like then that is tough they should have voted.

      Unlike the UK political model we would like a more inclusive politics in Scotland which means referendum hell you yoons might even be able to go for a 3rd referendum to rejoin the UK we will not stop you trying as anything that can bring more people into politics we welcome,i suspect though this is something yoons do not want they would much rather keep people in the dark and feed them shit.

      Now troll along sonny before i get hungry.

    86. Sassenach says:

      Richard MacKinnon. Are you saying that the Tory tactic of saying “We will never take part in any referendum”, so as to make any future vote ‘not legitimate’, must therefore mean no referendum on anything the Tories don’t like kills it dead???

      I prefer to think enough Scots will find it legitimate, and if they do, to hell with the Tories.

    87. McBoxheid says:

      Richard MacKinnon,

      If, say, the Labour Party abstains as a unit regarding some tory bill that they don’t really want to oppose and that bill passes into law, does it somwhow make it less legitimate?
      They have the right and the opportunity to vote and the right to abstain. If, by abstaining, Scotland chooses independence, as long as the vote is quorate, then it happens.

      You’re saying that if a small child has a tantrum and sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts “I can’t hear you” loud enough, what is being said by the adults in the room is somehow legitimately negated?

      Think about what you are trying to say

      Apart from that, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

      200+ amendments were proposed for the Scotland bill, and supported all Scottish MP’s except one. They were all rejected.

      A majority will always win.

    88. Smallaxe says:

      Lochside says:
      4 September, 2016 at 12:27 pm
      ‘Professor’ Tomkins ( sounds like a character out of ‘TIN TIN)

      See “Snowy” @ Rich ard

      Peace Always

    89. ScottishPsyche says:

      I suspect Adam Tomkins will regret going into politics. He has opened himself up to scrutiny that he would never have in academia. His titles and position would have conferred respect on their own.

      However, his utterances have shown him to be devoid of political nous, out of touch with the reality of his standing and without integrity.

      Regarding Andrew Collier, with people of his calibre doing their Comms, it is not surprising they have been treated so badly by the press? Why do these people behave like jilted lovers when they are let go by the SNP? Better screening is definitely required. he has now locked his twitter account, no doubt he realised his faux pas too late.

    90. Lochside says:

      @ Richard McKinnon:An 80% Yes vote on a 40% turnout wont be recognised as legitimate.”

      Strange that Richard, for in 1979 in the ist Scottish Devolution Referendum, a Labour MP introduced a 40% minimum vote for the ‘YES’ vote to succeed. This meant that the dead, missing etc. would be effectively classed as ‘NO’ votes. As indeed happened. As only 32.9% of Scotland voted, the winning 51.6% Yes vote was discounted. Never repeated since, but Fanny May try. Just another Union Dividend that held back Scotland another 20 years.

    91. shug says:

      It was interesting that Theresa may on the Andrew Marr show did not say she would stop another Scottish referendum. She was clear about:

      The British people have spoken – we are leaving
      She will listen to the other regions – but UK is leaving
      The people of Scotland decided to stay in UK so come with UK
      Sees no call from the Scottish people for a change

      NS is now setting up for the people of Scotland to call out change, The next local elections are critical. SNP needs a good outcome supported by we want change, poll findings will be important and I do not see May going against another referendum if we make it clear we want change.

      The BBC will now be dishing up Britishness with icing on it!! pass the sick bucket

      No Strawberries for me

    92. carjamtic says:

      Proud Cybernats @ 12:40

      Nice pictures,comments 🙂

      I am rereading The Prize – The Epic Quest For Oil,Money and Power – D Yergin.

      Quote
      ‘The Ocean Viking did the job;in November 1969,it made a major find on Block 2/4 in the Ekofisk field,on the Norwegian side of the median line.That happened to be a great moment for technology;American astronauts had just landed on the moon’

      Mary Marquis classy lady.

      😉

    93. Dcanmore says:

      Ah the mad professor, at one time, 10 years ago, a howling hard left socialist republican. He even wrote a book called ‘Our Republican Constitution’ published in 2005.

      One review says ‘the book closes by outlining a programme of republican constitutional reform that is designed to secure genuinely responsible government’

      Another adds: ‘Adam Tomkins’ latest book is timely. It is powerful, inspired and uncompromising; its proposals for change are daring and invite comment’

      Wonder what happened to that guy, it’s as if a switch was flicked?

    94. Robert Graham says:

      I remember seeing on here but can’t find details of votes cast for the Tory party at Holyrood (ie) list & constituency seats just how many of these people were actually chosen by the electorate .
      There has been a marked increase in Loony Unionist disruptive comments much more than even during the run up to Sept 2014 to all independence supporting sites over the last two weeks just a coincidence ?
      The nutty professor’s party are well known for being chancers , they knew fine well their challenge to the SNP survey would be dismissed but that wasn’t the point was it , this spurious challenge apparently on legal grounds was to get Ruthie i am not a Tory media attention as is her petition to block a second referendum vote , with 20% of the vote they seem to get 100% of media attention yet another coincidence aye ok .

    95. louis.b.argyll says:

      Indeed, the influence Tomkins has over impressionable undergraduates is shameful, if not sinister in motive.

    96. Capella says:

      Tomkins is very coy about his background. His Wiki page lacks any reference to Early Years, spouse etc:

      “Tomkins was educated at Gillingham School, the University of East Anglia (LL.B., 1990) and the London School of Economics (LL.M.). He taught at the School of Law of King’s College London between 1991 and 2000 and became a fellow at St Catherine’s College, Oxford in 2000, before being elected to the John Millar Chair of Law at Glasgow in 2003.”

      But the Scottish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign is rather critical of him:

      “”A leading British law professor has been awarded a prestigious scholarship by the British Friends of the Hebrew University (BFHU) for work promoting understanding between Israel and the UK. Glasgow University professor Adam Tomkins is this year’s recipient of the Hailsham Scholarship, which has been awarded since 1987 to honour the contribution of influential legal academics.

      Last year he was a visiting professor at the Jerusalem university, where he ran a course on national security. He will return to Israel next May to take part in a workshop with Aharon Barak, the former president of Israel’s Supreme Court. Professor Tomkins said the prize would facilitate the next stage of what he hoped would be “a lifelong series of collaborations with colleagues at the Hebrew University”. He added: “If, as a result, links between Glasgow Law School and legal scholars in Israel are strengthened, this will be an added bonus.”

      http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/occupied-west-bank/glasgow-professor-plans-joint-work-with-israeli-designer-of-regime-of-human-rights-abuses

    97. Ruby says:

      shug says:
      4 September, 2016 at 1:04 pm

      It was interesting that Theresa may on the Andrew Marr show did not say she would stop another Scottish referendum. She was clear about:

      Ruby replies

      As from 1st Sept I am unable to watch the Andrew Marr show!

      It’s great because I am now totally immune from any BBC propaganda!

    98. Alex Clark says:

      @Breastplate

      That was a brilliant quote and a brilliant put down.

      @McBoxheid

      Excellent rebuttal of the ridiculous argument that an 80% Yes vote wouldn’t count if the Unionists abstained from voting.

      @Richard MacKinnon

      “I only make what I think is a relevent point. That is a seceond referendum that is ignored by unionists will not be seen as legitimate, binding if you like. I am stating a fact not passing any opinion.”

      You really are scared aren’t you. You are in fact passing an opinion and it is one that has no basis whatsoever. You make me laugh as your “argument” totally shows how bereft of ideas you are.

      As support for Independence strengthens, the weaker your bowels will become. Take care not to shit yourself.

    99. DerekM says:

      @ Dcanmore

      Spook plant? well it would kind of make sense its a well known fact that the spooks have infiltrated student bodies before.

    100. alastair says:

      OT.
      Is being an MSP a full time job?
      Especially if you are a Minister or Shadow Minister
      I am gobsmacked to see that some MSPs are also Councillors entitled to £22k plus their MSP salary.

      What is the day job to get on with.

    101. Arbroath1320 says:

      So it appears we now have a two pronged attack (well at least a two pronged attack could very well be more than two. 😉 on democracy in Scotland now.

      First up we have our *cough* beloved wee Ruthie riding her Leettle Tankette or is it her Buffalo or is it her secret love interest Freddie fish or has she moved on AGAIN *YAWN* and she will now be riding her favourite warthog to the rescue of the broken union? 🙂

      With all the “big guns” taken up by his illustrious *ahem* leader what will oor wee prof be riding to the rescue of the broken union I wonder. What is left for him to ride into “battle”? Maybe he will be riding a grass snake slithering to and fro or perhaps a giant snail will be his charger of choice no I don’t think so because he will be riding into battle on the back of his favourite weasel … obviously! 🙂

    102. Smallaxe says:

      O/T

      Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?

      Were you advised to walk 500 more?

      You could be entitled to compensation!

      Call the Pro Claimers NOW.

      Peace Always:-)

    103. heedtracker says:

      He’s targeting high profile politics like Israel and Scotland because that’s one pretty sure way in to the Lords, law lords especially and ideally. He knows full well he cant stop Scottish democracy but he can damage it, thus his Scotland’s a one party state roaster stuff. But this all to the good, if you’re an aspirant law lord, Supreme Court especially.

      https://www.supremecourt.uk/

      Unless you do take the Prof’s route to UKOK greatness and you’re not ex public school and Oxbridge, you have little or no chance of getting anywhere near the highest court in the UK.

      https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/biographies-of-the-justices.html

      If it doesn’t say Oxford and Cambridge in a judge’s biog, they didn’t go there and its not worth mention where they went. Prof T’s alma materising is very provincial indeed.

      Real power exertion via the UK Supreme Court can be seen in their legality debatersing of the Iraq war and in the way Chilcot was almost meaningless. Its how UKOK actually works and the good Prof is nothing if not ambitious.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      What a scurvy bilge rat! Never mind, only 15 days to go folks. Hope you’re all preparing yourselves.

      http://talklikeapirate.com/howto.html

    105. louis.b.argyll says:

      He won’t go far..surely.

      Both his personal qualities (as seen in the constituency vote above)..
      and his shoe-in qualifications (and subsequent rise in academia)..
      ..are hollow.

    106. gus1940 says:

      The Scotsman over the last few weeks has run what they call ‘surveys’ of views on various political questions mostly relative to relative to Independence.

      Curiously every single one so far has produced figures on one side of within 1 or 2 percentage points of 65% and I’ll give you one guess which side of the debate that figure lies.

      I suspect that these surveys are fabricated as no matter how many times one returns to view the results the percentages remain the same.

    107. Tam Jardine says:

      @Richard MacKinnon

      “…a second referendum that is ignored by unionists will not be seen as legitimate, binding if you like. I am stating a fact not passing any opinion.”

      It is a curious notion that if the Scottish Parliament calls a referendum the vote can be delegitimised by non-participation.

      Would the same be true of a Holyrood election? Or a Westminster election? Or a by election? Had the SNP refused to participate in the EU referendum would that have delegitimised the result?

      If Corbyn supporters had decided the leadership challenge was illegitimate and the purge of members undemocratic and the best action was to ignore the leadership election, would Owen Smith’s coronation just been declared void?

      There is non-participation in every election and referendum- it is not mandatory. Those who don’t participate don’t count in the decision making process and that is all. Who decides what level of turnout makes a referendum void? How do you gauge if people have not turned up in protest or they just have decided they can’t support either proposition?

      And does this new rule you have decided is a fact, Richard- does this truth apply only to referendums the SNP put forward which you happen to dislike? And who has to see the result as legitimate? I think you want the answer to be “the people” but you actually mean the press. I viewed the last indyref as illegitimate due to all the outside interference of Westminster, Foreign governments and the foreign owned press as did many on this forum. Hell- it WAS illegitimate!

      What difference does my opinion of that result make? None whatsoever. Does it only make a difference if I am you and I don’t want to be asked the question?

      It is called democracy, however inconvenient that may be for you. But go ahead and stay at home if you like.

    108. Dan Huil says:

      @Richard MacKinnon 11:32am

      So if britnats go in the huff, after a legitimate vote in Holyrood for a second referendum, their huffiness means a second referendum cannot be legitimate?! Jeez, I’ve heard it all now. Next you’ll be wanting to invoke another undemocratic 40% rule. Oh, jeez, wait…

    109. Capella says:

      Get ready for the Yes Indy Ref App – see WGD latest post:
      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/09/04/get-ready-for-the-national-yes-registry-indyapp/

      More listening I’m afraid. Apologies to Unionists everywhere. We just won’t be telt!

    110. Dan Huil says:

      OT New documentary about to be released on bbc bias by GA Ponsonby and his film team.

      indyref2.scot/the-bbc-bias-documentary-is-our-chance-to-hit-back#comment-15270

    111. Andy-B says:

      O/T.

      Craig Murray, having a go at Nicola Sturgeon, and the SNP again, give it a rest Craig.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/09/nicola-the-haverer/comment-page-1/#comments

    112. Tam Jardine says:

      Richard

      And another thing- you are following in a long tradition of referendum rule fabrication where none exists.

      “Once in a generation opportunity” becomes a new rule on referenda. We could only have another one if public support is 60%. And now even if we have another one apparently one side get to decide if the result stands. I agree with Brexit- England and Wales should leave the EU but the SNP could hardly have approached the EU ref with more clarity! They even fabricated a referendum rule themselves so that we wouldn’t have an indyref anytime soon unless an unlikely circumstance came to pass.

      It did and now you are going to stamp up and down because the SNP rolled the dice and got a double six!

      It is preposterous- you have been placed in a tricky spot but that doesn’t mean you get to tear up the rule book.

    113. Robert Graham says:

      BBC news just now a report on syrian refugee settlement in britain so far estimated at 2800 absolutely no recognition of Scotland reaching 1000 settled so far ‘
      England population 65 million 1800 settled.
      Scotland population 5 and a quarter million 1000 settled .
      silly me would have thought some recognition might have been made or would that have given support to the SNP government childish but normal behavour by our unbiased media , ok we are not looking for brownie points but get a bloody grip we haven’t disappeared yet as much as the establishment would want us to get back in our box .

    114. Breeks says:

      Missed a bit here… Who is claiming the Unionists will shun the Indyref2? Is that real or just pish? Have we got it in writing???

      That will mean Indyref 2 is left as a two horse race between YES and the BBC. Bring it on!

    115. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Richard McKinnon

      “…a second referendum that is ignored by unionists will not be seen as legitimate, binding if you like. I am stating a fact not passing any opinion.”

      IndyRef#2 (as per IndyRef#1) must be legitimised by Westminster. And they are not going to say NO if a majority in the Scottish Parliament votes for a second plebiscite on Scottish Independence.

      So, having been legitimised by WM, that Yoons then refuse to participate is entirely their prerogative. But if the don’t vote in a legitimate plebiscite then it won’t result in the outcome being illegitimate, it will result in making it easier for us to achieve our independence.

      So–I for one am thankful to hear you’ll be helping us out.

    116. clipper says:

      Sorry o/t

      F A O PROUD CYBERNAT

      Glad to see that “BBC Misreporting Scotland” is the clear leader, had reservations about the rest of them. Not exactly sure how I’ll get 1,000 of them put up, lamp posts, bus shelters etc but fear not put up they will be. I don’t own a car but will travel by bus/train etc to find places to display them.

      Re the dynamite “Junkies Tramps & Thieves” article – a way MUST be found to get that condensed into some kind of leaflet form. Would it be possible for you to look into what costs, (crowdfunded) logistics etc would be involved in getting 250,000 of these printed and distributed through out the country? Would need front and back printing on all pages and may end up with 3 or 4 pages, say about 8″ high and 4″ wide. If there were 250 people up and down the country willing to go out and hand them out in town and city centres and also through letterboxes then the fact is that although some of them would be wasted for one reason or another (though hopefully it would occur to existing Yessers to pass them on to soft no’s,undecideds and apathetics that they know) it’s a numbers game and if the distribution was handled properly there is no doubt that it would have a significant positive effect on indy support.

      Hopefully you can look into this (I wouldn’t know where to start and am thinking that your experience re the stickers would give you an idea of how to find out) and keep us posted on developments? With a view to getting it rolling asap:)

    117. I was typing this brilliant excoriating critique of Marr’s interview with ‘Maggie’ May earlier but when I submitted it I got the response that I had already posted it. GCHQ? Get off my line..
      The BBC News Where They Are M’n’M show. A brightly coloured candy coated chocolate drop; all sweetness and shight. The Marr and May, Don’t Panic, Brexit’s nice, honest, ‘interview’, the Director’s Cut.
      “You leave (for the G20 summit) with economic figures that could hardly be better, employment figures right up, consumer confidence is very very strong indeed, and we’ve had some excellent manufacturing index figures, so that suggests that all those people (?) who said Brexit , it would put a bomb under the British economy, it would be a DIY Recession, I think the former Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that was scaremongering?”
      Who needs a teleprompt, Prime Minister, when we have our very own Wee MacGregor, Oor Andy, the other Oor Andy who doesn’t play tennis, to feed you lines like this?
      ‘Maggie’ May’s response to Marr’s word perfect Tory Central Office ‘line to take’ was a mumbled ‘We had some good figures’.
      She was ‘very clear’ several times during this wee contrived BBC Love In.
      She was very clear that she was not going to tell the electorate of ‘this country’ (presumably England) if more schools would be awarded Grammar School status, the date when Brexit negotiations would begin, cancelling the Bad Idea about having Chinese Communists sabotaging nuclear reactors, kicking out 2 million plus EU citizens working here if the EU did not allow our pensioners to continue lording over the French and Spanish rural peasants in Dordoigneshire and the Costas, whether Scotland would be ‘prevented’ (Marr’s word) from holding Indyref 2, and the thorny EU red line about access a to single market post Brexit.
      She was very clear that she was taking her time on thinking about all of this. She avoided answering every question put to her. On that she was very clear indeed.
      As she was prattling on during the pre-recorded piece of fluff yesterday, we already knew that the US had rejected the Tories’ bid to become the 51st State, and that Obama confirmed that May’s GB would be behind the EU in the queue when it came to negotiating trade deals with the US.
      The NHS , the junior Doctors’ strikes, the £22 billion in cuts were not even mentioned, or perhaps fell to the floor in the cutting room.
      The Newspeak is that ‘the British People’ chose Brexit.
      ‘The Scottish People’ chose to vote No in September ’14.
      We have been ‘othered’, all us Yes and Remain voters.
      We are no longer citizens.
      Hitler’s goons used that tack. ‘The German people’ blamed the Jews for every woe.
      BBC Establishment Mouthpiece has started already on the eve of the new WM Parliamentary session.
      One blessing. The other Oor Andy, who also doesn’t play tennis, the Neil man, appears to still be on holiday.
      Small mercies; we should enjoy it while we can.

    118. heedtracker says:

      Maybe Scotland is an independent nation state now, just that no one’s told us.

      Good old rancid.

      http://archive.is/CRyaw#selection-729.0-755.150

      World Cup 2018 qualifiers
      Road to Russia 2018: how will Northern Ireland, the Republic and Wales fare?

      Their performances at Euro 2016 in France offered much encouragement but the three nations will need to step up a gear to reach the World Cup finals

    119. Capella says:

      @ Andy-B but Craig’s article does allow for some good comments from Peter Bell such as this one:

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/09/nicola-the-haverer/comment-page-1/#comment-622077

    120. louis.b.argyll says:

      I don’t get it. By right we should already be independent.
      Each political party has its’ ideas, on which we base our selections.

      The SNP has, by far, the most popular ideas.. EVEN THOUGH it includes constitutional change.

      The Tories don’t mind dragging this out FOREVER and Labour is in their pocket. And they’re all in the pocket of the city and the oil and the wars and the news.

      Look at the GERS FIGURES, proof that what came before THE SNP, shaped the economy we now suffer.

      Before the rise of the SNP and green/social awareness, the EU should have better protected regions, exposing underhand accounting..Oh wait..

    121. Robert Graham says:

      A precedent has already been set re the first failed devolution vote when even the dead were counted as voting against it .
      If you dont want to participate in a second independence vote well dont if you dont want to fill in a survey that would register your opinion thats your free choice if you dont want to participate in anything to do with the future governance of Scotland thats fine .
      Actions have consequences so dont be surprised if the outcome dosent suite you , as for not voting when people have died mostly women to make sure you could is a grave insult to their efforts on your behalf just as the ones who constantly throw shit at the SNP government while accepting the benefits they fight for on their behalf , that includes you professor with the two jobs neither of which you seem to give your full attention .

    122. Capella says:

      Should have added that the Yes Indy Ref App needs help with funding. They have 25% of their £12,584 goal with 4 days to go.
      Here’s the indiegogo address if you can spare some cash:

      https://igg.me/at/nyr-indyapp

    123. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      @ Clipper

      I’ve distilled the Rev’s rather brilliant article into the image below:

      http://imgur.com/a/TBaZE

      Spread it far and wide (FB, Twitter, Insta etc). Print it out and leave it on park benches, pub tables, phone boxes – you get the idea.

    124. heedtracker says:

      Twitter yoons are oddly mute on the Vaz thing. In another time and in other place, tory yoons such as kevrage would be going tory apeshit at Labour today but and because, it really is UKOK all the way, see, hear, speak no UK evil, not that rent boys and drugs are evil, in any way whatsoever M’Lud.

      Imagine the super heating of twitter servers UKOK tory style, if Vaz was SNP. And look at hard core conservative yoon Kevrage’s twitter follow suggestions. If that list of kevrage twitter chums got any more right wing, they’d be a building a Trump Mexico wall around Bath.

      Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 5h5 hours ago
      twitter crashes as users delete all mentions of ever having played “the Keith Vaz game”

      You may also like · Refresh

      ((( Neil Lovatt )))
      @neiledwardlovat

      Agent P
      @AgentP22

      Brian Spokemon
      @BrianSpanner1

      Adam Tomkins MSP
      @ProfTomkins

      Fraser Whyte
      @FraserWhyte81

    125. Famous15 says:

      Legitamacy is 50% + 1 of those voting. No dead,no emigrated and no duplicity or duplicates.

      Scotland deerves better than these self loathing trolls. I think Ruth has a cult of them . Did I spell that properly?

    126. Dr Jim says:

      Craig Murray an “I’d like to be a politician for hire” by any party that would have him, he tried the SNP they said no thanks we’re not keen, he spat his dummy like lots of rejected folk do except he’s proved exactly why the SNP said no thanks in the first place by his infantile gibberings

      Away and eat worms and squirm Craig your shit is shit and it’s tiresomely obvious + Peter Bell owns you every time you open you very own big mouth

      Have some dignity man

    127. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Proud Cybernat at 3:12pm

      Any chance you could add the link

      wingsoverscotland.com/junkies-tramps-and-thieves

      To the oil image and see how much it would cost for these as A5 stickers.

      I’d be prepared to dstick them up in Aberdeen area.

    128. Iain More says:

      Well Glasgow gave him a resounding NO. What part of the resounding and loud FO yah English Tory Prick GTF doesn’t he understand?

    129. Dr Jim says:

      How long have the Yoons been screeching about Michelle Thomson buying a house perfectly legally and still no Police involvement because she did nothing wrong

      But anything happens in the Yoon party and there’s a media silence and blackout, lies, corruption, child molestation, electoral fraud, all of the above kept nice and quiet

      Definitely no media bias, couldn’t possibly be, it’s all in the imagination of the vile Seperatists until it’s dripped out so slowly the public don’t notice it ever happened at all

      They talk about the Scottish referendum and call it divisive but don’t even mention the vile way in which they conducted the EU referendum which caused an actual murder and violence towards anybody who looked halfway foreign on the streets of England on the basis of what was coming out of their own politicians mouths

      Had that been a Muslim Preacher they’d have had him locked away by now but because it’s white Yoon Politicians saying the same stuff it’s perfectly OK to (what is it they like to say) learn lessons

      Aye right, I’ve learned my lesson very well

    130. clipper says:

      Proud Cybernat 3.12

      Yes it’s good but has nowhere the punch that the article has. That article has the potential to swing a lot of votes indy’s way and that’s what counts.

      It would probably need to be condensed/edited but so long as the gist of it got put across can you think of the reaction if it was distributed widely enough? People on here are always saying if only we could get this out to the public etc about various pieces of info that come up and are suppressed by the msm, well here’s a perfect opportunity staring us in the face. Printing off a few copies (and I for one don’t bother with a printer anymore) and putting out a few here and there isn’t going to get anywhere near the full potential from it. If I had any knowledge or experience of this kind of thing I’d be looking into how it could be done, costs etc myself but I don’t and thought you had hence why I asked.

      Is anyone interested in taking this further?

    131. Iain More says:

      Tomkins is another Defoe.

    132. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Jockanese

      Here you go…

      http://imgur.com/JxKTkzy

      And here’s fnother from Jackie’s scrapbook…

      http://imgur.com/a/mdIgK

    133. Valerie says:

      @Capella

      Peter A Bell doing some high grade work on Craig’s petulant rant.

      Some very strange followers on Craig’s blog, really puts me off going there. That and Craig’s sour attitude.

      Folk just seem to ignore the unprecedented electoral success the SNP have worked at, and that success might just show they have some idea in what they are doing.

      Craig asserts no one in SNP said anything about GERS. So he missed George Kerevan, and others tweeting about GERS. Many other Indy supporters rebutted GERS.

    134. clipper says:

      Actually got to log out now will check back tomorrow.

    135. There is no hiding place from Twitter , and especially wings over Scotland

    136. Madcatwummin says:

      Interesting that the Tories seem to be totally fixated on ONE question that was asked two years ago……..and so keen to ignore every question asked since then. Wonder why that is? Untruths were told and facts twisted in 2014. Scare tactics and intimidation ( in some companies) were used and postal votes went on wee holidays in order to ensure that the vote in 2014 was the way they wanted it! Since then….Scotland vote for the SNP in Westminster – Scotland voted for the SNP in Holyrood, Scotland voted to ensure a PRO independence parliament in Holyrood. Scotland can and will choose to vote how THEY want to – despite the Tories getting all huffy about it. Such is democracy – if you don’t like the result – you CAN change it!. I’m interested in knowing what weird kind of democracy the Tories advocate that only allows to one shot at a decision and then you have to stick with it for the rest of your life!……….just because that’s how they stay in power down south…….doesn’t mean that’s how it actually works in the real world!. They are never happy – they moan that Nicola and the SNP don’t listen – then they tell their followers to shut up when she asks their opinion…….and they tell Scotland it only gets to give its opinion once! Yet, they sure have a lot of mince to spout themselves – a neverending amount by the look of it. So many people who slid through ( post electoral rejection) on the list – with so much to say! And all of it nonsense.

    137. One_Scot says:

      The Yoon mentality really is something to behold. I’m not sure if they are out and out piss takers, or outright basket cases.

      I’m leaning towards the latter to be honest.

    138. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Clipper

      Would love to help more with this but right now I am concentrating my efforts in opening peoples’ eyes to the propaganda being pumped out by the BBC in Scotland through their BBC Misreporting Scotland ‘news’ programme. The BBC is our biggest obstacle and we need to tackle it hence this wee project, Peep the Beeb.

    139. Robert Graham says:

      BBC scotland really taking the piss now ,yet again on the news channel just in case you missed the other two showings that won’t be broadcast outside jockland the don’t mention it was labour & Tory PFI contracts regarding the Edinburgh Schools programme .
      I wonder if this is going to be a daily occurrence or just every other day so as not to make it too obvious .

    140. Bean an Tighe says:

      Sorry if OT, but Farmfoods are selling lovely Scottish strawberries, no saltire but clearly labelled Scottish strawberries.

    141. call me dave says:

      Hark the Herald: Tom Gordon, Scottish Political Editor

      Just an excuse to re-run an old smear and froth up the Lib/Dems.

      https://archive.is/rC5Tn

      Slow news day then… 🙁

    142. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Thanks Proud Cybernat.

      Also think one like the oil image but one side a photo of the UK at night showing lights (energy usage) and the other side with the map showing mw/h costs for UK with the disproportionate costs in Northern Scotland to SE England would also be an effective A5 sticker.

    143. Robert Louis says:

      I know this is o/t, but I think it is a great article by the peat worrier, in the National.

      It is about that remarkable oddity, the ex-pat Brit, living in France denouncing ‘immigration’ and voting for brexit, all the while apparently utterly oblivious to his own situation as an immigrant to France.

      LINK: http://www.thenational.scot/comment/andrew-tickell-the-ex-pat-brits-who-voted-for-brexit-dont-see-themselves-as-immigrants.21276?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    144. Craig P says:

      I tried the national survey and wasnt impressed. The only questions it wants the answers to are the ones the survey is interested in – from my point of view, not the most important questions. It also wants a number of personal details.

      None of this stops Tomkins being preposterous, of course.

    145. Alisdair says:

      Bad cunt, end of.

    146. McBoxheid says:

      Craig P says:
      4 September, 2016 at 4:55 pm

      The only questions it wants the answers to are the ones the survey is interested in

      ________

      What? You think it should full of questions that are not relevant?

    147. Mc Boxheid says:

      You think it should BE full etc

    148. Jack Murphy says:

      Professor Adam Tomkins is a Tory,enough said.
      Ruth Davidson is a Tory,enough said.
      Explains everything.

    149. Graeme says:

      I asked my missus if she heard about the survey on Facebook (I don’t do Facebook) she said yes she had and a lot of folk are saying they voted Yes last time but they’re gonna vote No this time, I have no idea who these people are or where they came from but here’s their rationale,

      Europe is gonna disintegrate and The £ hasn’t plummeted, so they voted Yes last time for an independent Scotland in or out of Europe with a relatively stable £ but now suddenly so long as the arse doesn’t fall out the £ that’s a good enough reason to remain a scrounging dependent miserable country and Europe can go fuck itself

      I am fucking sick and ashamed of of my countrymen/women who voted No last time and are considering voting No next time on the basis of economics or some kind of cringing allegiance to the British state and I swear to god if we get another referendum and turn independence down I will disown my country and never admit to being a Scotsman again I will consider myself nationless

      Graeme

    150. Sinky says:

      @ call me dave says:

      Worrying last paragraphs in Herald article…

      Meanwhile, the LibDem MP unseated by Thomson starts work tomorrow for the SNP government.

      Mike Crockart, a former IT manager at Standard Life, is the new “Transformation Lead” for the Scottish Government’s Digital Directorate.

    151. Proud Cybernat says:

      “There’s really on one word she has to hear: we said No.”

      “we said No.” Em, that’s THREE words.

      And, FYI, madam Tomkins – we gave a No response on the basis of promises YOUR LOT made. But which sunsequently did not honour. THAT is why we are today where we are, because of YOUR lies and unfulfilled promises from last time.

      Oh and when IndyRef#2 comes around (and it most surely WILL), if you adopt the same tactics i.e. false promises, breaking purdah rules, scaring pensioners etc etc, then you can be damn sure you will have IndyRef#3 to look forward to.

      You are bringing the Neverendum scenario on yourselves with your lies, cheating and underhand tactics. But then–you know what would happen if you didn’t play dirty, don’t you!

    152. Rock says:

      Craig Murray is ex LibDem, a long time close personal friend of the disgraced MP Carmichael.

      You can’t get much more opportunist and dishonest than that.

    153. Capella says:

      @ Valerie
      I agree. Craig often has insightful articles and I dip in regularly. But this anti-snp one is plain daft and Peter Bell demolishes it brilliantly. I wonder if it was meant to provoke? If so, it succeeded.

      You’re right about the shark infested comments, although it certainly seems less so than it used to be. But I don’t normally read the comments on other sites as they are usually inane (unlike WoS!)

      Bella Caledonia is another “naughty step” site which has some good articles. This recording of the Media show discussion on Stephen Daisley is one example. Stuart Cosgrove and Eamonn O’Neill dissect Daisley while John Beattie tries to monitor. Worth a listen:

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/09/01/daisley-revisited/

    154. Katie says:

      @ Robert Louis 4.38pm

      An ex-pat living in France praising Brexit??
      I am outraged at this sort of attitude!! I am in a similar position in Italy. I used to work in Scotland but due to the economic crisis and reshuffle in my company I was gifted with the opportunity to come and work and live here. However I don’t like the ex-pat term. In my book I’m an immigrant just like the people from other parts of the EU who have found work in UK. On 24th June this year I spend all day on tenterhooks at work half expecting to get called in to HR telling me I had to go. Its alright for him I expect though. Hes retired there and doesn’t have to rely on a job to allow him to live from day to day. A luxury that us younger folk will ptobably never have the chance to experience. Makes me sick!!

    155. Arbroath1320 says:

      Craig P says:
      4 September, 2016 at 4:55 pm

      I tried the national survey and wasnt impressed. The only questions it wants the answers to are the ones the survey is interested in – from my point of view, not the most important questions. It also wants a number of personal details.

      None of this stops Tomkins being preposterous, of course.

      Sorry Craig but you have kinda lost me there.

      The only questions it wants the answers to are the ones the survey is interested in … erm … isn’t that the whole point of a survey? 😉

      I mean surely when you create a survey you create it around the questions that YOU want answers to NOT questions you think someone else MIGHT want answers to.

      I am sure there is nothing stopping you from creating your own survey, there are apparently plenty of websites that let you do this, so you can ask the questions that you want answers to.

    156. Gary45% says:

      Bean An Tighe@4.38,
      Yep found farm foods a great company. Also mentioned on a previous post regarding Haggis, try Halls Direct Foods vegetarian haggis its the bollocks( no pun intended). I eat haggis and veggie haggis and Halls veggie is close to the real stuff.
      The Broxburn company went bust a few years ago but were taken over by a Dundee company. Seriously try their Veggie haggis.
      If you live in the Highlands AI butchers in Inverness can get it in if you order it, or contact Halls directly.
      NumNum.

    157. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Graeme –

      Hear ye brother, hear ye…

      Sometimes it really does feel grim and hopeless. It’s one thing to have to tolerate lies and bile emanating from pretty-much every MSM outlet, but hearing that same guff coming – sometimes verbatim – from the mouths of friends and loved ones is well nigh unbearable.

      I don’t have any answers I’m afraid, and I’m not going to patronise you with platitudes or faux bonhomie. Plain truth is, we will probably just have one more shot at this in our lifetimes (dunno ’bout you but I’m 53) and I just can’t deal with the prospect of spending the rest of my days under WM rule – the very idea of it makes me nauseous.

      🙁

    158. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      ” we gave a No response on the basis of promises YOUR LOT made.”

      I completely agree with what you say.

      Any legitimacy IndyRef1 and its result had has been utterly destroyed now. It has to now be considered null and void.

      IndyRef 1 was between Indy with all the doubts sown VERSUS DevoSuperHomeFedarlism and the EU.

      IndyRef2 is necessary now and will be Indy in the EU VERSUS mad as a box of Brexit frogs UKOK.

      Yes … Yoons …. Whose fault is that!?

      It didn’t have to be this way. Tomkins and pals at WM have brought it about.

      Yes, cause IndyRef2 to be invalid and you can expect IndyRef3 along soon enough.

    159. heedtracker says:

      You can’t get much more opportunist and dishonest than that.

      This is what British politics is though, a giant liar factory, as in Murdoch’s henchman like this one. So, why are hard core Conservative teamGBists like the Ligger so determined to stop Corbyn, as they all keep shrieking how unelectable Labour will be, with JC as leader.

      Andrew Neil ?@afneil 4h4 hours ago
      May leads Corbyn by 105 points among over 55s (sounds impossible but May +51.8, Corbyn -53.1 in that age group = 105)
      206 retweets 158 likes

      Andrew Neil ?@afneil 4h4 hours ago
      May is even more popular than Corbyn in 18-24 age group (supposedly the Corbynista heartlands). @Survation

      Andrew Neil ?@afneil 4h4 hours ago
      Theresa May is 64 points more popular than Jeremy Corbyn (Survation)

      Andrew Neil ?@afneil 4h4 hours ago
      J Corbyn’s net favourability rating amongst 2015 non-voters stands at -15.7. So much for enthusing the previously apathetic.

      I was chatting to the Ligger lately and he was saying its actually his life’s work to make the UK as hard core Conservative as BBC possible and nothing and no one was going to stop him. His friend Nic Robinson was also there and Nic agreed and said Teresa May will be in PM for as long as she wants to be and everyone at the BBC would make sure of it. Scotland’s just a mere side show, a training ground if you will, for all that Conservative British talent up there, like Ruth Davidson and Professor Adam Tomkins.

      This is exactly how tory BBC gimps like the Ligger and Robinson work everyday of their toryboy lives.

    160. ScottishPsyche says:

      For everyone bemoaning the England game on STV remember we are also paying for the England team’s grassroots development.

      Osborne set aside £50 million to develop the England team:

      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-50-million-boost-for-footballs-grassroots

    161. Graeme says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      I’m 56 and under no illusions our next shot will likely be our last shot (at least in my lifetime) true Scots throughout time have waited 300+ years for this and we turned it down

      I’ve supported independence all my adult life and never believed it would ever happen until 2014 when we came so close I just don’t think I could bear another close defeat.

      This is not about economics or Europe or Margaret Currens weans it’s so much bigger than that why can’t they see that

      Graeme

    162. call me dave says:

      For the important game later: 19:45hrs our time.

      http://myp2p.ec/

      0-0 in that other one… dire stuff at the moment.
      Not planning to write to my mother about it.

    163. Arbroath1320 says:

      Sorry for being O/T here. 😉

      Is it just me or does anyone else think wee alien loving Hammond is getting rather concerned about the lack of oil revenue heading his way from Scotland here? 🙂

      http://archive.is/Xdluv

      Don’t forget folks it was the M.O.D. who put a block on the Clyde basin drilling and investigating many moons ago on the grounds that it would interrupt the movement of their toy submarines! 😀

    164. Phronesis says:

      Scotland has said ‘No’…to Brexit,Trident,increasing child poverty,privatising the NHS,casino economics,illegal wars,the unregulated free market,the minimal state,a political system based on hierarchy and privilege, one nation imperialism.Empty rhetoric ‘Big Society’,’Back to Basics’,’Citizen’s Charter’, ‘Built to Last’ is also frowned upon.

      Scotland has a majority of independence minded MPs and MSPs. That certainly sounds like a resounding NO to UKOK which continues to misunderstand what’s happening in this country- an engaged electorate is demanding a new deep,horizontal,direct, participative,consensus- driven democracy- in other words true democracy.

      Van Reybrouck comments in his very elegant treatise ‘Against Elections,The Case for Democracy’

      ‘Citizens…do not merely measure the popularity of this or that party,politician or measure.They are becoming political facts in their own right and wield a huge amount of influence,as governments attribute great value to them and decision- makers take account of them’.

      SG as representatives of an autonomous country should have a long, in depth discussion with its citizens on all the issues of the day and as often as necessary.

    165. galamcennalath says:

      ScottishPsyche says:

      “For everyone bemoaning the England game on STV remember we are also paying for the England team’s grassroots development.”

      Yes. There are all sorts of things wrote with UKOK – democracy, mandates, etc etc – but on of the fundamental things is that England does not have a ring fenced budget. Anything not covered by Barnet consequentials will have a component of Scottish money in it.

      They deem it to be in the National interest and say everyone benefits. And they define National as a fuzzy UK/Britain/England as always. Olympics, theatres, high speed rail … all paid in part by Scots.

      A lot needs to be put right in UKOK. Personally I think it’s now way past sorting. However, a distinct budget for spending in England would clarify a lot.

    166. Breeks says:

      Oh oh. Not going to win any friends again, but I’m 60%-70% backing Craig Murray. The 30% held in reserve is attacking Nicola, which I don’t agree with, but the lack of engagement between the SNP, YES, and the population is disappointing.

      Before you go all SNP on me, just remember a significant body of people, (myself included), saw Brexit as a means to kick start Indyref2, or perhaps go even further with a UDI recognised quickly by Europe, and ratified just as quickly with a ratification plebiscite. That could have happened. True, it might have proven premature, but I would have taken the gamble.

      Its not that I’m reckless, but I just don’t subscribe to the view that losing 2 Indyrefs would kill off a third. Then again, if I’d been left in charge, I’d have been screaming blue murder about all the bias and news manipulation compromising the 2014 vote. Maybe I am reckless after all. Nevertheless, with Brexit in the rear view mirror and Europe drawing us on, I believe we’d have won and our fears would have proven groundless.

      I know, on the down side, the 2014 majority was, and remains, a significant amount of ground to be overcome, and a group of people which might not respond well to pressure. However, that wrestling match is going to happen sooner or later. But amidst the turmoil of Brexit, I feel confident we could have hurdled over the Indyref2 threshold, and planted a referendum date for Spring or Summer next year. Now, the announcement of Indyref2 will need a prompt, and you can guarantee it will be met with howls of derision in the press.

      I said at the time, linking Indyref2 to Brexit was a mistake because it hands all the initiative to Westminster, who can twiddle their thumbs while procrastinating over Article 50. Here we are, months after Brexit, twiddling our thumbs and waiting for “something” to light the blue touch paper. That “something” which we must assume to be a thing more divisive and inflammatory than Brexit.

      Now again, don’t go Tonto, I’ve been patient and reserved, bitten my tongue and gone with the flow. That’s roughly where I still remain. You ask us to have faith in Nicola and trust the SNP, and credit where its due, there are bundle of people doing just that. But the SNP really needs to throw these folks a bone.

      If Indyref2 really is giving the SNP the heebie jeebies, then book a hotel out in the sticks, hold a secret summit with the SNP and heed bummers in YES, and get YES politicised into a party which the SNP can live with. Let YES be impatient and vocal, and SNP be reserved and patient. At least then YES can stop holding its breath waiting for “the nod”, but more importantly, we’d have two pro-Indy players in the game, with one serving as the sounding board for the other and suddenly there is a wealth of progressive dialogue trying to make the headlines.

      There is a slim chance the right things can happen spontaneously, but it strikes me a little behind the scenes orchestration might be no bad thing. That isn’t Nicola’s job, its a job for a lesser lieutentant, and right now he needs to listen to Craig Murray and get his finger out his arse.

    167. Two jobs Tomkins (a lawyer that has never been in a court room and an MSP that was not elected),

      was gifted a place in Scot Parliament by the Tories on the promise/hope that he was a skilful/talented debater with great judgement and reasoning,

      i`m afraid, like Glasgow Uni,they have bought a blathering idiot,slightly lower on the evolutionary scale than a Murdo Fraser,

      just another sneering Right Wing Tory with no wit,wisdom,warmth or empathy,

      some Tories hoped he would one day overthrow the Ruthfuhrer,

      think she can sleep easy (as easy as a sociopath can).

    168. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jeez, it’s amazing how selective these arrogant Tory twats can be – we’ve just had another referendum with a stonking 62% of Scots voting to stay in the EU, but – goodness me – selective amnesia has set in over that already. Never mind that an imminent Brexit has transformed the situation utterly.

      These people are only pretendy democrats, happy to flaunt any threadbare excuse they can muster, but otherwise it’s “back in the box, peons, we are in charge”.

      What gets me even more exercised though is how this Unionist selective amnesia passes blithely unchallenged by our wonderful 4th Estate, as commented upon by Mhairi Black re El Gordo in her excellent article in The National yesterday. The increasing absurdity of his regurgitations absolutely demands a reality check from someone, but nary a word. With the honourable exception of the redoubtable Mhairi, of course.

    169. Dan Huil says:

      @ Breeks 6:32pm

      A job for Tommy Sheppard as deputy? Or influencial lieutenant.

    170. Glamaig says:

      @Clipper 4.15

      yes the Revs excellent article on the economy is vitally important and should be presented to all No voters. I would personally deliver it to every house in my constituency! It would need to be shortened as its 12 pages long. I was looking at costs of folded A3 glossy sheets as I think that would be a good format. It would cost £2500 to do my constituency, but that was just a random price check and sure it could be done cheaper.

      Sadly thats jus tthe tip of the iceberg, there are so many topics that the public are completely ignorant of thanks to our multi-billion pound media industry not telling us. How many people know that we cant be forced to join the Euro for example?

    171. Glamaig says:

      …and on the topic of Union Jacks in supermarkets, if all 300000 readers of Wings emailed the supermarkets (I just did) telling them to cease and desist, and stopped buying the products, they might get the message.

    172. Smallaxe says:

      Graeme says: “I will disown my country and never admit to being a Scotsman again I will consider myself nationless”

      Graeme,dont be like that.Think of all the educated and intelligent people who day after day write,nay slash words of
      passionate and heartfelt pride on these pages.My god man!Think
      of what you would be missing,Political debate,Historical facts,Pathos Tragedy,Democratic souls opening up their deepest
      thoughts,not ashamed in the least to share there hopes,fears
      and intimate concerns,even at times their joy.All of this done
      Graeme,secure in the true and certain knowledge that they will
      not be sneered at, or denigrated by, the vast audience who watch from the sidelines nor by those who write in these pages.

      We are a family my friend,we have opened our hearts to each other,in good times,sad times and bad times.Graeme,brother,
      sometimes when one of us is upset or downhearted we have
      people who will go out of their way,forgetting their own problems however troubling,just to try and lift the spirits of
      those who like yourself are in a dark place now.I give you my
      Solemn promise Graeme if you will persevere with Scotland,I will teach you to walk and whistle at the very same time.

      Peace,Love and Humour Graeme:-)

    173. call me dave says:

      @Smallaxe

      Your indefatigable. A lesson to us all. 🙂

    174. Effijy says:

      Stoker says:

      4 September, 2016 at 10:27 am

      ronald russell wrote:“I wonder if he has a shortbread tin collection?”

      I bet he does, along with his sash and bowler hat!
      _____

      PS folks – beware of the commercial con in the post at 10:04am by “Effijy” – be careful about who you give your private details to. 38Degrees has previous for doing the dirty on ‘Yes’ supporters but “Effijy” continues to help them gather your personal details, be warned!

      Stoker! Grow up man!

      We have been thru this before.
      The petition was started by a Winger and Independence supporter, who is named on the site, George Moore.

      He and I and 90.000 odd others have all signed and the secret service hasn’t sent Kames Bond out to exterminate us.

      Everyone has a free choice, do something to fight back against the BBC, or just keep sending them your individual complaints and receive a ” No you are wrong and stupid” letter from them.

      Yes the site might send you an e-mail about a similar campaign, and from there you can delete or unsubscribe.

      SNP Politicians have a very useful tool in their hands when the BBC claim not to be Biased, a petition where 91,000 Scots so far say that they are out and out Liars!

      Kind Regards

    175. paul gerard mccormack says:

      graeme 5.22
      – i know the feeling.

      The Hungarians put it well –

      Gyava népnek nincs hazája

      A nation of cowards have no homeland.

    176. Andrew Morton says:

      Perhaps Mr Tompkins might have more success if he stood as his alter ego Jezerna Roza who seems to be lying unused in the cupboard at the moment.

    177. liz says:

      @Graeme, I also despair at the total ignorance of some folk.

      The £ is only stable at the mo cos the BoE have released massive amounts of cash in QE.

      The collapse is yet to come and that is why they need us.

      All that oil off the west coast and our renewable sector will bankroll the UK again.

      If it is a No vote, I have decided I will move to somewhere else, probably Ireland.

      I will not live in a country with folk on their knees.

    178. IaIn More says:

      OT

      I have nothing but SPAM on the brain right the now! Team GB UKOK really ought to get them to sponsor them.

    179. Graeme says:

      Thank you Smallaxe

      I know through reading these pages you’ve had your own problems lately and highly thought of here and I see why

      Graeme

    180. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Graeme, @Liz
      I’ve felt like that often.
      But I just can’t give it up.
      The unionists are not getting a victory.
      Never.
      Its not theirs to have.

    181. liz says:

      @Effigy – I mentioned a while back that I don’t rate 38 degrees.

      I said my piece and left it there but I can’t believe weeks down the line you’re still going on about it.

      In 2014 a 38 degrees petition gathered 10s of 1000s of signatures against BBC bias and NOTHING happened.

      http://thirdforcenews.org.uk/tfn-news/bbc-accused-of-bias-in-referendum-coverage

      So gather your signatures but please stop filling up every thread with it

    182. Smallaxe says:

      call me dave:

      Hi Dave,we can’t have people down it’s Bad vibes man,things
      can get rightly serious,but we don’t need to be walking about
      wi’wur faces trippi’n.18th sep.a park full a’faces looking like sumbuddy stole thur scone ur thur i-phone,it’s not on man, we need to show confidence n’ a’ brightness shoot us.

      The fight has started,we are all aware of that,but it has only
      really just started,if I can be patient most people can.Anyway
      when we are in public view we have to look …….

      Get me dave?

      Cool:-)

      Peace, Love and happiness dave and all who you love

    183. Smallaxe says:

      call me dave:

      Shoot/ ah ment aboot.

      Peace Always

    184. Glamaig says:

      @Graeme, Liz and others who have said the same thing. I wont give up because I cant, and I love this land and dont want to live anywhere else, even if I deeply disagree with half the people in it. If we lose it will surely be by a whisker this time and there will be 1.8 million of us who still arent going away.

    185. Capella says:

      Smallaxe by name, Smallaxe by nature.

      So if you are the big tree
      We are the small axe
      Ready to cut you down (well sharp)
      To cut you down

      These are the words
      Of my master, keep on tellin’ me
      No weak heart
      Shall prosper
      And whosoever diggeth a pit
      Shall fall in it, fall in it
      And whosoever diggeth a pit
      Shall fall in it (… fall in it)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgWUnuB6quc

    186. GrahamB says:

      O/T just been looking for an easy way to squirm through the next couple of hours watching our overpaid ‘sportsmen’ taking on mighty Malta. I’ve only got Freeview (don’t tell the EBC) but nothing available there, don’t even see a highlights programme. Best offer seems to be Radio Shortbread, listened to two minutes of preview with an Irishman called English, so I think I’ll wait until tomorrow’s paper before checking the score – that’s if the National can hold their presses back late enough!
      It feels as if we don’t exist as a nation anymore, radio is so 30s but we were North Britain then and maybe that’s what the establishment is trying to do to us again

      Back on topic, I see Tompkins is very close to Annie Wells, the new right-wing Krankies perhaps. I found it odd listening to her that she is a Tory but my MP told me he was on a hustings panel with her in 2014 and it was blatantly obvious her unionism was derived from her background of ‘Orange pish’!

    187. Proud Cybernat at 2.41

      No Scottish Referendum has to be legitimised by Westminster assent. It was very nice last time that they came along and made the process friendly and pleasant (then broke all the agreed rules). The UN Charter makes it very clear that no agency can prevent any country or community deciding by referendum or parliamentary decision how it decides to rule itself WITHOUT OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE. Any other assumed position is in fact bluff – and of course Westminster knows exactly the reaction it would get if it tried to block such a clear democratic exercise.
      Richard MacKinnon is talking absolute pish of course.

    188. Graeme McCormick says:

      Transmits but does not receive.

    189. Smallaxe says:

      Graeme:

      I Hope I put a smile on your face,we can only think in a positive way,(good vibes man) what we are getting hit with is
      sophisticated propaganda and it does what it was designed for
      very effectively,it gets everyone at times.Chill man,sit down
      and put some good music on (blues) …do your own thing for a
      while,whatever.Hail Alba

      Peace,Love and Tranquility to you and who you Love

    190. Grouse Beater says:

      Scot Finlayson: “Two jobs Tomkins – a lawyer that has never been in a court room, and an MSP that was not elected”

      Freeloaders of Scotland unite!

      You have nothing to lose but your integrity!

    191. K1 says:

      lipsuckin’ dickwavin’ nerve gratin’ numb makin’ brain dumbing’ vomit spewin’ tongue chewin’ head spinnin’ truth bendin’ never endin’ Tomkins!

    192. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Dave Hill

      “No Scottish Referendum has to be legitimised by Westminster assent… Westminster knows exactly the reaction it would get if it tried to block such a clear democratic exercise.”

      Which is why I said:

      “…as per IndyRef#1…”

      The Edinburgh Agreement legitimised the 2014 Indy plebiscite in the eyes of Westminster BUT – more crucially – in the eyes of the wider world. With the Edinburgh Agreement the plebiscite was entirely legal in the eyes of the world. We were not seen as another Kosovo or Catalunya where their govt branded any indy vote as unconstitutional and thus, in the eyes of the world, was seen as illegal.

      Westminster CAN make life difficult if they so chose. But, like you, I rather doubt they would be stupid enough to go down that path. So yes–there will be another Edinurgh Agreement for IndyRef#2. There HAS to be if we are to truly and LEGALLY win our independence in the eyes of the wider world.

      IMHO.

    193. Tinto Chiel says:

      Graeme, Liz and others.

      We all get fed up at times but these coordinated accounts of unfavourable “polls”/ “I was Yes but now I’m No”/” I was Yes, now I’m Brexit” are simply panicky attempts to to take the edge off the FM’s effective launch of Indyref2. They seem really upset by the SNP survey. Plus I am convinced the Yoons have private polling which shows the real state of play, i.e. Yes leading.

      They want us to despair and give up and they have been so active recently on several fronts that I conclude it’s they who have to worry. They know that when Brexit actually starts the wheels are really going to come off and more and more Soft Noes will realise that the UK out of the EU is an economic basket-case and won’t want to be dragged down with England. A lot of English academics at our universities will not want to lose their EU-funded grants and will be faced with a simple choice. The Remain vote in Edinburgh suggests how they might vote in Indyref2 if their professional careers depend upon it.

      To head off the pensions nonsense, the SG should take the bold step of guaranteeing higher state pensions, pointing out how poor UK provision is. Sometimes you need a bit of pragmatism to add to the moral/rational arguments.

      We’re very close.

      Confusion to our enemies.

    194. Ken500 says:

      Is Tomkins wife Israeli? An immigrant?

      Two faced hypocrites. Andrew Neil’s wife is an immigrant but they want a cut in immigration.

    195. Smallaxe says:

      Capell:

      Marcus Garvey said in a speech,”A man will arise in Africa and
      He shall pronounce Himself”Kings of Kings Lord of Lords
      Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah”.A man did arise,his name was Ras Taffari and eventually was crowned Haile Selassie.

      I may at some other time tell how my name (Smallaxe)came about

      JAH RASTAFARI!

      I and I send you Peace,Love and Indy soon com Man soon com:-)

    196. GrahamB says:

      Thanks CMD @8:07 but it doesn’t want to play on my technology – perhaps the manufacturers have not been paying their taxes in Malta as well as Ireland. Anyway it looks from the internet that we might snatch a draw from the jaws of victory!

    197. Smallaxe says:

      Graeme:

      I must apologise I sent a post for you in reply ages ago and it’s disappeared.

      Hope I made you smile,what is happening is sophisticated and
      highly effective propaganda,it gets to everyone at times,that
      is what it’s meant to do.Chill man,sit down when you get a chance,have a Small beverage or whatever,put on some good music,tell someone you love them (do not try this with a stranger) my case comes up next month!

      Seriously Graeme I mean what I say,Cool man, take it easy get
      rested up,you will need to recharge for the battles to come,

      And we will win and lose some,but we will win the war!

      Peace,Love and Tranquility to you and all who you Love

    198. call me dave says:

      @GrahamB
      Here’s another two that are working: 🙂

      http://myp2p.ec/

      http://streamshunter.tv/

    199. heedtracker says:

      Scottish cringer of the year, well of them, sticks it to Slab guy, not literally, for obvious reasons.

      Andrew Neil ?@afneil 1h1 hour ago
      Andrew Neil Retweeted Eric Joyce
      Yes. The Scotsman. When I was Publisher and appointed the Editor.Andrew Neil added,

      Eric Joyce @ericjoyce
      Does anyone know if any Scottish daily or Sunday paper, including all the editorialised UK papers, has ever had a woman editor?

      But Ligger RT’s this too

      Andrew Neil Retweeted
      UK Defence Journal ?@UKDefJournal 1h1 hour ago
      £100m facility to be built in Scotland for new P-8 aircraft – https://goo.gl/OZ6Wvc

      and its got these btl comments,

      Jamie Perkins July 11, 2016 at 20:16
      Any chance of england or wales getting a look in?

      Reply
      UK Defence Journal July 11, 2016 at 20:33
      You do realise of course that well over 95% of the UK’s military equipment is based outside Scotland, right? Perhaps you’ve missed the announcements regarding new Apache aircraft, F-35, RC-135 and additional Typhoon squadrons?

      Completely demented, UKOK style.

    200. Alex Clark says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Don’t sweat it my friend. We have them on the run.

    201. Graeme says:

      Thank you Smallaxe

      I appreciate your posts, looking back my original post was probably a bit over the top.

      It’s just at times some of my so called countrymen/women frustrate the living hell out of me.

      In spite of what my original post might suggest I actually love my country and would be prepared to make many sacrifices to see Scotland free and quit of the shit that is the British establishment but there are just far too many so called Scots who would vote against it if it meant they couldn’t see the fucking Xfactor.

      I’m sorry if I come across as bitter but the truth is I am bitter but I mean every word I said but in the meantime I’ll take your advice and who knows tomorrow’s another day 🙂

      Graeme

    202. call me dave says:

      New P-8 aircraft was in the news a few weeks ago, a promise they knew had to be kept.

      It’s a big watery world the North Atlantic & North Sea lots of Russians. 🙂

      PS:

      The secret of scoring a goal for Scotland is growing a beard!
      A cinch!

    203. Tinto Chiel says:

      A.C. @9.09.

      Agreed, Alex, and only two years to go!

      May have to change name to Tonto Chief to cope. It’s a long game ahead.

      😛

    204. heedtracker says:

      call me dave says:
      4 September, 2016 at 9:31 pm
      New P-8 aircraft was in the news a few weeks ago, a promise they knew had to be kept.

      Aye but “well over 95% of the UK’s military equipment is based outside Scotland, right?”

      Why and How come that kind of teamGB fact, isn’t lodged between the ears of every Scot, by the SNP or YES 2?

    205. Smallaxe says:

      Graeme:

      Please don’t apologise for sounding bitter,remember”Bitter Together?”That’s the way these so called Scots were conditioned,years and years it’s went on on on.I was lucky
      enough to be just at the right age to enjoy the 60s,I found out how these yoons work,I am still with CND and amnesty international,I was kindly awarded for my support, by the donation of several sutures and a cracked skull by the kindness of the constabulary,fine bobby’s all.

      Up until now it’s been mostly words, I hope that’s all that
      happens,we only want what is rightfully ours we wish no harm to friend or foe.

      Peace Always

    206. manandboy says:

      IndyRef2 will take place just as soon as it can be conducted under independent security and control; with equal access to the media, and a change in SNP policy whereby anyone with minimal residence qualifications gets a vote.

      Otherwise it will be a waste of time.

      The British Establishment intend to keep its asset rich colony

    207. manandboy says:

      – known as Scotland, forever.

    208. Bean an Tighe says:

      Gary45% – Thanks for that, sounds great! Will give it a try.

    209. Phydaux says:

      I profess that Adam Tomkin Tory MSP is not fit for purpose ( excluding services to Empire).His academic title seems to bear no relation to his intellect or faculties.Still, a sure fire sitting duck for more exposure and ridicule as the tide turns towards independence, drowning out his fatuous and pompous guff.

      As a response to the recent waves of jingoism and union jackeryism, I say, like others on here, let’s get more of oor bonny national Saltires flying to show our sense of pride in Scotland and all its achievements.The Saltire is the oldest flag in Europe and which originated in a battle fought in 832 AD in East Lothian.The Picts and Scottish warriors, under King Angus, defeated the English Saxons, under the sign in the sky of the St,Andrews Cross.The famous regiment, the First of Foot, of the Royal Scots, has used the Saltire as its emblem since the 17th century.

      Recent articles by Stuart have been of top notch quality and analysis and truth and lots of ideas and informed debate from contributors, as ever.Coming here helps me keep the heid and keep inspired.

      Can someone provide me with information about where best to buy Saltires?

    210. Bob Mack says:

      One of the most enlightening articles I have ever seen on the way Scotland is treated was ” How to subjugate a nation and be it’s ruler” by G C Asnani. It is a brilliant depiction of the tactics used by Westminster. Sorry I cannot link on this device.

    211. Fireproofjim says:

      OT
      John Thurso (Lord Thurso) ex Libdem MP who lost his seat to SNP’s Paul Monaghan, has been elected to the House of Lords as a Hereditary Lord, after what the Sunday Times calls the “weirdest election”.
      Only LibDem Lords with hereditary titles were allowed to vote. There were only three of them and Thurso won 100% of their votes. So he is now a well paid legislator for the United Kingdom because three unelected, hereditary peers say so.
      By all accounts he is a decent fellow, but, what a medieval system!
      As we all say – the sooner we get out of this Union the better

    212. Chic McGregor says:

      Richard MacKinnon

      “OK we understand, you dont like Adam Tomkins. But you should not let your hostility blind you to the point he is making.
      I can understand why unionists are not that keen on a second independence and I understand why this is a massive problem for nationalists. You are a clever guy Reverend, why cant you understand?”

      You have no idea how many former No voters now want another referendum, neither do I and neither does the Scottish Government nor Ruth Davidson nor any of the Labour variant factions.

      That is what the exercise may shed some light on.

      I will say, with rather more confidence, that those former No voters who do want another referendum will on average be more keen to have one than even former Yes voters.

    213. Andy Clarke says:

      Who does this guy think he is? Mr important? Just another unionist gangster who thinks he is right. Who is paying him to spout such shite. When we get independance we should banish hi ilk to outer mongolia, if there are any mongolians reading this….my apologies

    214. Macbeda says:

      @Bob Mack 10:12pm

      Here you go

      http://archive.is/BFPdM

    215. Corm says:

      Clearly he watched that Grange Hill episode, where they all sing to Zammo, once too often.

    216. Iain More says:

      OT Again

      I haven’t decided who should get the Spam award tonight the England GB UKOK Team or Robert Snodgrass for his quality hat trick?

    217. tamson says:

      People have been describing Tomkins as a left-wing republican a mere decade ago, but let’s not forget he was actually a left-wing pro-independence republican.

      https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/10/298867.html

      Remind every Scottish Tory voter of that. Even they might be observant enough to realise the guy’s a complete chancer.

    218. Breeks says:

      This is very worth sharing… Spread the word.

      http://indyref2.scot/the-bbc-bias-documentary-is-our-chance-to-hit-back

      The media is where this will be won or lost.

    219. Proud Cybernat says:

      “In a democracy it is the people who are sovereign and not the crown! If you want democracy down with the crown!”

      – Conservative & Unionist MSP, Prof. Adam Tomkins

      Your past beginning to catch up, prof… You might be able to fool Rooth the Mooth–you most certainly don’t fool the rest of us.

    220. heedtracker says:

      My Slovene girlfriend’s old vote NO or Else stomping ground says,

      “The Greens have got it: alliances can work for Britain’s progressive parties
      Zoe Williams”

      Guess who’s not on rancid’s “progressive parties” list?

      http://archive.is/b3zbO

      Back in the real world,

      https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9218/scotland-ireland-and-northern-ireland-launch-celtic-union-renewable-energy

    221. Grouse Beater says:

      Who would want to live in England, a country that has wiped out all its last generation achieved for peace, reconciliation, cooperation, and prosperity?

    222. Robert Louis says:

      There is a rather excellent piece by Craig Murray on his blog,

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/09/nicola-the-haverer/#respond

      and I have to say, I agree with just about every single word. With each passing day, it is becoming clearer and clearer that the SNP/FM are simply not going to have another referendum in the near future. I also agree regarding the latest questionnaire. Where is the passion? where is the burning desire to gain independence? It is simply no good saying ‘we’ll wait til the polls look better’. If you want people to spend hours campaigning, then they must KNOW the referendum is coming.

      We were told ‘remain means remain’, yet Westminster has repeatedly, clearly said they will take ALL the UK out, and Scotland will not have a veto, so what in god’s name are we waiting for. Why wait for Westminster to get its plan in place?

      For heavens sake, almost every single MP from Scotland is now SNP, yet still we refuse to rock the boat, instead politely playing Westminster’s game, and GETTING NOWHERE.

      Oh, and can somebody please tell me, why independence supporters keep repeating the unionist mantra that there cannot be another referendum after the second one?

      I’m getting as frustrated as some others. All the people I know are saying to me, why is the FM not calling a referendum? Why are the SNP dithering?

      Now I hear people from the SNP deliberately conflating membership of the EU with access to the single market. I want to stay in the EU, not get dragged out by London, only to be told, yes, but we can still access the single market. It is utterly meaningless.

      I do hope the person doesn’t mind, but a comment left on Craig Murray’s article sums up exactly how I feel, especially the very last line. You could not get a better opportunity to campaign for independence. Such circumstances will likely never come again.

      Here is the comment from the blog (My Cocaine)

      Quote: “I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Craig Murray but disagreeing with Peter A Bell.

      In the aftermath of 2014, I thought we had blown it, that our chance had passed for at least a generation, but the fortunes have smiled kindly on us and presented us with a second chance

      Thanks to BREXIT, Westminster is in disarray, the Union is on the ropes. Months of uncertainty, managed decline, and another winter of discontent surely await us.

      We have a pro-indy majority in the Scottish Parliament. Nearly 2/3rds of Scotland voted to stay in the EU, but find themselves marginalized again.

      That traditional pillar of Unionism in Scotland, the Labour party, has been swept from the board – a corpse that refuses to die, its remnants torn apart by civil war between Corbyn and a Blairite rump.

      Honest to God, I cannot think of a more favorable position for the pro-indy movement to find itself in.

      If not now, when?”

      I’ve held my tongue for a long time, but it really needs said, we need action. Now. People will simply never forgive the SNP if they leave us to be dragged out of the EU, without at least trying for independence to keep us in.

      Rant over.

    223. Tam Jardine says:

      McCoist on ITV highlights programme approx 22.55, discussing England Slovakia:

      “… what was driving myself and probably one or two other England fans (bla bla bla) the top goalscorer in your country is playing in front of the back four (bla bla…)”

      Scotland is in the same group Ali. You played for Scotland, remember? You identify as an England fan whose country is England- the ITV presenter picks up on it and describes Ali as her English friend. Then we go on to watch highlights of Scotland beating Malta.

      How does that happen? Is there a machine you go through that replaces your identity?

      The highlights start describing Malta as the definition of minnows- aye- wee Malta somehow manage survive as an independent country and have the same representation in the EU (6 members) as Scotland despite having a population of 435K. So we have a population over 12 times the size and currently the same representation in the EU parliament.

      Remind me, who are the minnows?

    224. Grouse Beater says:

      In answer to Bob Mack

      When you want to subjugate a nation and be its Ruler, you should do the following things:

      1. Make that nation lose its self-respect.

      2. Economically, make the target nation dependent on yourself.

      3. Offer economic survival and even economic prosperity to the leaders of the target community, absolutely dependent on your good will. Those leaders shall obey you, and will make an appearance that the nation’s survival or prosperity depends on their becoming and remaining your most obedient servants, and your admirers.

      4. Those leaders should also be clever enough to make an appearance that they are independent, national patriots, doing everything, thinking everything and saying everything, only for the benefit of the whole nation or the Community.

      5. Divide the target nation into warring sub-groups and communities, each ready to cut the throats of the other sub-group and community.

    225. Stoker says:

      Effijy wrote:

      “Stoker! Grow up man! We have been thru this before.”

      And? What’s your point? You think you get to post with impunity? You keep promoting the con and i’ll keep revealing the truth? I couldn’t give a rats arse who started the petition.

      38Degrees shat on yes supporters and they’re an English commercial company and if i choose to repeatedly alert readers to those facts then that’s exactly what i’m going to do.

      I don’t work my arse off to bring people to this site for others to lead them up the garden path and then expect me just to sit back and watch them do it without warning them. You’ve got the wrong person and you don’t know me at all.

      As for your mince about a petition being a useful tool for the SNP, ffs, don’t make me laugh and please don’t insult what little intelligence i have left. Just don’t go there, please!

      When people stop helping those who shat on us then i can stop sending out warnings to the unaware, the sooner the better. Glad we set that straight, kind regards!

      BTW, not that you’ve given me any answers to previous questions or challenges but i’ll try again with a couple of newbies:
      Why is it a commercial petition and not a Parliament petition?
      How old is the petition? And one for old times sake, one you’ve previously failed to respond to: Show me evidence of just one petition which has worked for us!

      I’ll look for your answers tomorrow because i’m hitting the sack. Goodnight all, including you Effy! 😉

    226. DerekM says:

      Why does everybody want the SNP to start acting like the damn yoons and mud sling,dont you know that is exactly what the yoons want them to do hmmmm?

      Nope they should keep doing what they are doing and leave the yoon bullshit to us,and anyway nobody can really do anything until those daft Tory fannies start article 50.

      Patience is the key each day that passes the tories will get more angry,more SNP bad the propaganda will be over the top,they have learned nothing from their red tory pals and are falling right into the trap set for them.

      And we have only just started kind of reminds me of their red tory pals all going mental.

      No indy ref boohoo Scots dont want another indy see our fixed polls BBC says so get back in your box why will you not listen to the PM of the UK you are not a country,once in a generation,phony grassroots ya boo cybernat nazi communist leftie socialist brainwashed robot cult.

      And well that will be about it with a few smears flung in for good measure,hey yoons your plan sucks big time 🙂

    227. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The media is where this will be won or lost.”

      And if you can’t BEAT the media, you BE the media.

    228. Graeme Doig says:

      Screwfix, proud sponsors of STV and England football.

      Life in this colony just keeps getting better. Could only be improved with more sight of the red white and blue England flag.

    229. Dr Jim says:

      First off Craig Murray is a whining little shit of a nobody who’s tossed his toys out the pram and Peter Bell was right to chastise him over his drivel

      Second, the SNP are Scotlands party of Government and govern for the whole country, that’s NO voters as well we’re not a Jeremy Corbyn protest movement

      Third the SNP are in the position of having to wait till the “UK” government decide their terms of Brexit while they sort out a way to exclude the wishes of Scotland in as devious a way as possible but obvious enough so even the NO voters can see what’s happening

      Fourth the SNP aren’t there as puppets to satisfy the whims of moaning faced gits who want a thing and want it now under threat of not being voted for
      The members of the SNP at conference will be appraised of the internal polling and National Conversation results and will decide what the party’s next move is to be democratically, that’s the correct way to proceed, anything else and you might as well just be a gang

      Lastly, membership of the SNP is open to anyone and anyone gets to have their say, so if you want a say you know what to do, but shouting from way over somewhere else “Yous hud better get on wae it or else” is going to attract no one in the SNPs attention

      We are NOT the Labour party nor are we sneaky Tories who say one thing and do another
      Right now Europe is watching us and everything must be timed correctly or Nicola Sturgeon is out of the job and that would suit the Yoons just fine, but it’s not going to happen

    230. Still Positive. says:

      Dr. Jim @ 11.53.

      Spot on!

      I trust Nicola especially as she has said she doesn’t want to feel the way she did on 19th. September 2014 and neither do I. She will call a referendum when Brexit becomes clearer and we know we have a winning side.

    231. DerekM says:

      Spot on Dr Jim just one thing to add if you dont mind the SNP are not the yes movement,if you want indy get off your butt the only way we win is by people getting out there spreading the word on the streets to vote for the SNP and telling our people the truth behind this failed corrupt union we are held in servitude and utter contempt in.

      Why the SNP its simple do you see anybody else that can do it they have never claimed to be perfect they will make mistakes but if they can get us that one legal EU referendum on indy and take out the UK electoral cheats from running it i will sleep better at nights.

      At least i hope that is their plan since we got cheated last time just like 79.

    232. Effijy says:

      liz says:

      4 September, 2016 at 7:39 pm

      @Effigy – I mentioned a while back that I don’t rate 38 degrees.

      Liz, don’t rate it don’t sign up, most of all don’t tell
      other people what you allow them to do?

      Everyone get their own choice on this matter.
      Some of you act like Prof Bumkin @ 14%.

      You don’t know better than everyone else!

    233. Phydaux at 10.05

      If you send a cheque for £3.50 made out the YES Cowal to the Forward Shop, 186 Argyll Street, Dunoon PA23 7HA I’ll post you a 3ft x 5ft Saltire, polyester with eyelets and a sleeve. Or as many as you want.
      Satires with YES will be available soon at around £7.50 from same address

    234. call me dave says:

      May tells Sturgeon the priority now is to make Brexit “a success for people in Scotland”

      http://archive.is/sXgdW

      Brian Monteith: Honeymoon set to end for SNP and angry voters

      http://archive.is/w9FJO

    235. Smallaxe says:

      call me dave:

      That Monteith,whit a’ dancer,”some are leaving the SNP and are
      thinking of joining Ruth Davidson and the conservative party.”

      The man’s up the lum.

      Peace Always

    236. Petra says:

      This “we said no” comment is just typical of the fly, lazy, inept politician who thinks that we in Scotland are all pinball wizards.

      The Scots said No in 2014 in part, if not in the main, due to scaremongering and blatant interference that breached UN electoral legislation.

      They said No to Brexit, more recently, but no mention of that ‘No’ from Tomkins. And don’t forget that there will be some amongst the Scottish Brexiters who were influenced by meeja and Tory lies (again): Some of whom may waken up and smell the coffee as time goes on.

      The Scots have in fact said No over and over again to Tory rule and to Tompkins as an individual, as Stu clearly points out. Tomkins has decided to ignore or repress these facts hoping that others will do so too. He also hopes that his swing from left-wing to far right-wing politics, his links to Westminster and to Israel will go unnoticed. He’s a sinister individual, imo, and one to be watched.

      He and Rooth the Mooth would have been on a high when they managed to net some of the left-wing Unionists, such as Orange Order morons (which will come back to haunt them no doubt), but have been brought back down to earth with the (unexpected) Brexit bang.

      Not ONE single member of the UK public has voted for Tomkin’s boss, Theresa May, to be leader of this country and yet this wee wummin will be making decisions (Scots exempt from that) that will have far-reaching repercussions for Scotland. Her predecessor, Cameron, got 30 odd percent of the vote that is from those who actually voted at all (20 odd percent if you take that into account). In other words, in the latter case, at least over 60% of the electorate said No to him and we have no idea how high the No vote would be for May. Even higher I would suspect, but we don’t really know because we’re living in a dictatorship.

      Although the Labour Party suicide pact fiasco has proven to be a beneficial ‘cover-up’ for the Tories Brexit which they can’t cover-up will be their downfall, as far as Scotland’s concerned (at least). Theresa May has to prove to all and sundry, here and abroad, that the UK leaving the EU won’t have a detrimental affect on trade and the economy. Tall order. She has to get her claws into as many International contracts as possible now, such as by tapping into the US and Asian markets.

      She’s at the G20 and getting a hard time from the Japanese who aren’t one bit pleased about Brexit. Thinking of doing their own Jexit from the UK now. China is waiting to see which way she’ll go re. the Hinkley nuclear reactor deal. One wonders if she’ll change her “it’s a threat to National Security” point of view to not getting contracts from China / Asia in future will be a threat to the existence of the UK in general. Obama annoyed that the EU is not exactly enamoured with TTIP is hinting, loudly, that the (now desperate) UK could move to the front of the queue, from the rear, if May agrees to taking it on board. We know that the Tories would be all for this deal anyway but many in the Commons would have voted against it. Now it looks as though they’ll have no option but to go along with this (if they can get away with it) or toddle back to the end of the US queue.

      I also wonder if many countries around the World are actually delighted with this Brexit state of affairs for Westminster, invader of over 80% of countries on the planet, and will give them short shrift? For example some Australian friends say that the general feeling is that they don’t need / want to trade with England and in fact more and more people want to break ties altogether. Chickens coming home to roost?

      Tomkins and Davidson realise that they are in a precarious position in Scotland and that they can’t draw from a list of Tory ‘positives’ to enhance / support their position, because there isn’t one. They’re running scared and left with nothing more than bleating on about an economic black hole created by Unionist Governments (and fiddling of figures), being totally derisive of Nicola Sturgeon’s time in office, one that actually puts theirs to shame, and chanting the ridiculous “we said No” mantra that’ll be silenced when more and more people see that they’ll continue to put their Westminster Party before the Scottish people regardless of how disastrous Brexit will be for Scotland.

    237. CameronB Brodie says:

      Iain More
      First thing I thought Iain was “that was a cross” (I scored dozens the same). Enough SPAM to feed a tartan army. Did the trick though and left us with a half decent score difference. Could make all the difference. 😉

    238. manandboy says:

      Cameron is one of the worst Prime Ministers ever, but already, Theresa May is looking like she will be an even poorer occupant of No 10 Downing St.
      She behaves somewhat like a strict victorian schoolteacher in front of a class of teenagers of whom she has already lost control.

    239. Dr Jim says:

      @DerekM @Still Positive

      Ta much, and you’re right the SNP isn’t the Yes movement, that’s all the rest of us’s job
      Sometimes folk get carried away with Yoon propaganda and start believing Nicola Sturgeon is some all powerful white Queen fairy godmother instead of a human person like the rest of us just trying to do the best she can with the entire “British” establishment, their trolls, their press, their TV on her case 24×7

      She has the most hellish job in the world putting up with the vile filth spewed at her every single day yet she keeps on where others would have given in, but she knows that’s what the Yoons dream of and she’ll never let them win,

      If she can put up with it patiently waiting for the right moment I figure so can I, even though I’ve got a lot less time to wait I’d rather wait and get it right next time than fail again
      Some folk have short memories of how that felt when we lost
      it nearly bloody killed me, it was like a death of someone close in the family, I gret for days

    240. CameronB Brodie says:

      Iain More
      That sounded big headed. Kids football, short-ares goalies, a lot of SPAM and over a decade. A good few though. 😉

    241. yesindyref2 says:

      I see Theresa May is sticking to a simple recipe in The Great British Fake Off. Scots can just fake off.

    242. Les Wilson says:

      I think it would be a very good anti Tory leaflet to have itemised
      all the Tory and labour results where they got into Holyrood by the back door after being soundly beaten. Cue Tompkins.

      This would be a great Indy leaflet but also great for the council elections. Perhaps Stu could do a feature on this that can just be printed out, that would allow any group to use it.

      Just a thought that may be a very good doorstep weapon of information that could turn a good number NO’s to Yes, when they can visually see how they have been duped.

    243. Les Wilson says:

      Ref Polls, we should not believe what comes out of UK based polls,
      they are by location and contacts, another media that can easily become a weapon against Scottish hopes.

      It would be in UKOK interests to see that they show anti Indy results, something we should make sure we are aware of.

      The ONLY polls we should take heed of are polls that come from the SG, the others are ultimately under the UKOK wing, and will push their agenda. We cannot and should not take what they say as a truth.

    244. Smallaxe says:

      DerekM says:
      5 September, 2016 at 12:37 am
      “Spot on Dr Jim”

      Well put Derek,Dr Jim’s post was excellent and your reply
      compliments perfectly the good DR’s point.We need feet on the
      streets not bums on seats,voting for the SNP is the best hope
      we have to achieving our goal of Independence. Individuals can
      vote any way they they want afterwards,but for now join the
      SNP,that way lie’s freedom.

      Peace Always

    245. Nana says:

      https://tompride.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/the-harsh-reality-and-unfairness-of-the-governments-anti-immigration-campaign/

      https://fionamoraggrahame.wordpress.com/2016/09/03/tavish-scott-msp-the-ferry-financial-fiasco/

      http://www.cityam.com/248722/balfour-beatty-exec-lined-up-sweeten-national-grid-bid

      So the greasy chairman of the commons select committee has been caught at last. Is it any wonder Goddard refused to appear and answer questions posed by such a man.
      Bercow knew exactly what Vaz has been up to and resisted pressure from fellow mps to force Vaz to quit. Slice of PIE Harriet Harman nominated Vaz for the HASC where he supported Janner and shut down investigation.

      Lots more still to come out in the wash!

      https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2016/09/04/more-vaz-sex-sleaze-and-government-child-sex-abuse-cover-ups/

    246. Breeks says:

      That’s fine DR Jim.

      Can I request an alarm call on Indyref2 polling day? Wouldn’t want sleep right through it.

    247. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning Nana:

      I hope you are well on this fine day.Thanks for the links,I’llput the kettle on and enjoy the read.

      Peace,Love and Understanding

      There’s nothing funny about that!

    248. Smallaxe says:

      Breeks:

      Good morning my friend,dont worry about sleeping in.When I’m
      out lighting the lamps I will give a rattle on your window.

      Peace,Love and Chickamelly:-)

    249. Breeks says:

      And enough of the Craig Murray is a “whining shit of a nobody”.

      I don’t know him, never met him, but Craig Murray was a “Man from the Ministry” who had the balls to risk his career, reputation, and everything and stand by his principles over the UK’s grubby dealings over rendition and torture. To do that kind of thing takes courage and integrity, and there are more than one or two high profile members in the SNP who, I promise you, couldn’t hold a candle to Mr Murray when it comes to courage or integrity.

      The SNP needs to put the lid back on its bottle of hubris and start listening to the people who don’t agree with everything rather than those who do.

    250. jdman says:

      Whos this “WE” Gringo

    251. Smallaxe says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      5 September, 2016 at 12:41 am
      Phydaux at 10.05

      If you send a cheque for £3.50 made out the YES Cowal to the Forward Shop, 186 Argyll Street, Dunoon PA23 7HA I’ll post you a 3ft x 5ft Saltire, polyester with eyelets and a sleeve. Or as many as you want.

      Dave’s flags are great,I got mine from him a while back.

      Dave McEwan Hill:Nod Nod Wink Wink!

      Peace,Love and Commission:-)

    252. Ken500 says:

      The Tory/Unionists at Holyrood are like some annoying white noise in the background. The majority take no heed of what they say but just find it annoying. 2nd rate rejects troughing on public money. The electorate will get wise to that voting system, It will be SNP/SNP twice. Instead of cancelling out their vote. Next the Council elections May 2017. To have another clear out of the time wasting, money wasting liars. SNP all the way. Get the budgets straight.

      Craig Murray has finally lost the plot. The hypocrite. He will find out his place now. Imagine trying to defend Keith Vaz. Another condescending, pathetic, toughing, pompous sycophant. Full of his own importance. Pretending he did not know what ‘poppers’ were. Same as that Sewell hypocrite.

      Thank goodness for Peter A Bell.

      Nicola is adored and she is loving it. Why not. Head and shoulders above the rest.

      Social care, no ‘bedroom’ tax, more nursery care, student loans and more manageable fees, SNHS protected, bus passes and prescriptions, funding to alleviate poverty. While the Unionists waste £Million/Billions of public money on grotesque projects the majority do not want. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Trident, illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Then claim there is not enough for essential services. Sanction and starve the vunerable to death. They are a complete and utter disgrace.

      T. May is another fraud. All they had to do was remove Trident. Give Scotland the powers to deal with the economy to cut the deficit. Stop taking nearly £4Billion to pay off the rest of the UK debts accured by Westminster. Stop taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when prices had fallen 75%, losing thousands of jobs. Losing £4Billion+ a year. It is now 40%. Scotland should have the powers to put a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. Total £13Billion. They lied about giving Scotland more powers.

      The Westminster Unionists are in chaos. They don’t know what to do next to ruin the world economy. A total shambles. The Polls are used to gerrymander the result. Always wrong. Public polls should be banned in the Purdah period. The MSM is a joke. Sold to the higher bidder and destroying itself. Controlled by Westminster. Non Dom tax evading owners. The UK is the most, unfair, unequal place in the world.

      The next Independence Campaign has started.

    253. Petra says:

      I see that some online newspapers, such as the Telegraph and Express, are running with a story that Stiglitz ”Praises Brexit” …. ”Applaudes Britain’s decision to leave the EU” …. based on an interview that he gave to the BBC.

      There’s no doubt that Stiglitz has his reservations about the EU and is clearly against the monetary Union …. the Euro …. but I can’t find anything at all that suggests that he applaudes or praises Brexit. The online Express carries the BBC video which it has cut to exclude the following:

      ”Does that mean that you think the British people were right to vote for Brexit?”

      Stiglitz actually says ”Eh, that’s a slightly different issue.” NOT ”Brexit is great”.

      ………………………………

      The BBC headline as you can see, from the video in question, highlights that Stiglitz thinks that ”Brexit is great”.

      ‘Joseph Stiglitz says the Euro zone is in a depression, Brexit is great.’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntorSwJuP-I

      ……………………………..

      Additional Stiglitz videos.

      Professor Joseph Stiglitz Talks Brexit

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvT28pTcCDo

      Joseph Stiglitz on multinationals, taxes, and TTIP (and Brexit could go either way depending on the deal that the UK gets)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INAZPJeJlYw

    254. Les Wilson says:

      Can someone tell me who our preferred printer is, if we have one.

    255. Ken500 says:

      Sky news had Whittingdale? ‘the escort’ man commenting on Keith Vaz. Open to blackmail the lot of them. Whittingdale was going to give Murdoch, the crook, even more control of the MSM. Already too much illegal control. The crook who illegally bribed public officials, hacked phones and should be in jail. He was going in and out of Downing Street encouraging the illegal wars and Brexit. Funding and supporting Gove and Fararge. Where are they now? Having done their masters bidding to create chaos. The Leveson verdict not honoured. These fools are in charge of national security. The Tories have put a ‘D’ notice on the Chilcot verdict. No Press reporting of the Military leaders/Westminster failures. Swept under the carpet?

      The Etonian mess. The dope on a rope. Paid by the Telegraph. After falling out with Murdoch for telling lies. The irony. Rats in a sack. Non Dom tax evading owners. Destroying the Press. The Telegraph is even printing a story about ‘Chinese’ honey pots, spies etc. and believes Brexit has happened. A load of nonsense.

      Tommy Sheridan at last won more damages. After having his appeal to the EU Human rights court block by Blair’s London court. Blair the godfather’s, godfather. Blair and Brown should be in jail.

    256. Tam Jardine says:

      Les Wilson

      Lindsay from Ayemail should be able to help you: http://www.ayemail.scot/

    257. Scott says:

      Former treasurer of Kezia Dugdale’s local Labour party pleads guilty to embezzlement

      I wonder how long the BBC will run with this story if ever?

    258. Smallaxe says:

      Ken500,

      Good morning,my altruistic friend,champion of the most vulnerable in our society. I wish you well.

      Peace,Love and People who love People

    259. Macart says:

      @jdman

      I think you’ll find ‘WE’ means a small majority in a frozen moment in time. This frozen moment in windae licking terminology means for all time plus one more day apparently.

      No hardship, no pain, no democratic deficit, no forced circumstance, upon an already put upon population, should ever be allowed to alter the outcome of that frozen moment.

      Meanwhile back in the real world…

    260. Sinky says:

      Right wingers getting excited at misleading poll suggesting Ruthie is more popular than Nicola.

      Brian Monteith in Hootsman saying honeymoon is over.

      http://archive.is/9Rv9U

      Once again letters pages full of the usual suspects frothing at the mouth over Indy Ref2.

      However sad to read of the passing of Robert Dow from Tranent who was an oasis of sanity in the letters page.

    261. Nana says:

      @Smallaxe

      Back home after hectic weekend, eldest son off to Aberdeen uni to do his masters degree. The usual last minute shopping stress taken it’s toll so need another weekend to recover.

      Trying to catch up on what I’ve missed both in the news and on the previous threads and can I just say you sir are an inspiration to us all.

    262. Sinky says:

      Les Wilson says:

      Regarding good printers try Stuart at Edinburgh Print and Design
      0131 337 7733 who is very helpful

      http://www.printandsigncentres.co.uk/

    263. Ken500 says:

      An economist who was part of a decision changes their mind. Any publicity will take people to the economic support for Independence for Scotland with or without the £. In or out of the EU. Better in. Better in the Euro for business and cutting red tape. That is how the London Banks make their money exchanging Euros. A tax on the economy.

      It doesn’t matter what currency is used. It is just a form of exchange. What matters is resources and how they are used. Balancing the books and fair distribution. Scotland has always balanced the books and Westminster has taken the surplus and wasted it. The equivalent of £Billions. Funding fraudulent bankers, illegal wars, tax evasion. Scotland needs Independence to deal with it. Westminster has depopulated Scotland and lied and lied. Scotland not having the powers to deal with the economy and the debts Westminster has run up. Thatcher etc. Deregulated banking, cut leverage, sold off utilities. Now owned by foreign State companies. Thatcher took the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland and lied about it. ‘This must be kept secret’ written on the fiscal documents. Over 3million unemployed (higher in Scotland) and interest rates at 15%.

      The SNP are holding Westminster to account.

    264. galamcennalath says:

      Ken500 says:

      “The UK is the most, unfair, unequal place in the world.”

      There are worse. However, it is certainly the most undemocratic and unequal in the EU.

      That is something which has always made me wonder about the EU – when it demands high standards of democracy from any new country joining, why has it always accepted UKOK in its midst?

      An unelected upper chamber full of retired cronies and where religious leaders have guaranteed seats (CofE). An archaic electoral system where a party can achieve over half the seats and power with only thirty odd percent of the votes. A state controlled media pumping out propaganda in support of the established system. And that’s before we deal with all the old boy networks based on education at a few privileged institutions.

      I would have expected pressure from the EU for UKOK to raise its standards, but nothing was ever said.

    265. Tinto Chiel says:

      Phydaux: you may be interested in “The Story of Scotland’s Flag” by McMillan and Stewart. It’s quite hard to get in book form just now but it’s on Kindle with an excellent book on Hutton the geologist, another Scots genius who is undervalued/ignored.

      Nana: that Vaz link is a scorcher. How come this wasn’t on the BBC? Strange.

      Whenever I saw him on TV I thought him a creepy, smug, slimy, arrogant wee puddock who made my flesh crawl but he was very much the rent-a-mouth go-to-guy for the BBC, wasn’t he?

      Craig Murray has some admirable qualities but he’s never recovered from not being selected as a candidate and I don’t see what he expects the FM to do in the present situation. It would be the kiss of death for our independence movement to be seen to jump the gun before Article 50 is pressed.

      I’m sure someone out there will be on here in a minute to propose UDI, you know, that giant man-trap with the big, sharp teeth.

      Steady, the Buffs/Haud a daud.

      BTW, adenoidal, by-turns-bored-then-tetchy Melvin Bragg is on Pravdasound4 at the moment going all orgasmatronic about “The North”.

      But it’s not The North where we are, unfortunately.

    266. Smallaxe says:

      Still Positive:

      Please excuse my omission of your name in my post at 7:15, I
      apologise for my error,your sentiments were obviously included
      in said post.

      Peace,Love and Painful Embarrassment:-)

    267. Grouse Beater says:

      Galamcennalath: “UK is the most undemocratic and unequal in the EU.

      Suggest the UK is grossly undemocratic to opponents, our two nations criminally unequal, and they’ll reply with variations on a theme; “I feel perfectly free to do as I please, say what I want, and buy what I need” – which, of course, is a tragic delusion, but fine ‘n dandy if you think Scotland should remain under English control.

      On UK democracy: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-4qV

    268. Scott says:

      A Very British Deterrent BBC 2 Sunday night

      How many people watched this the Tories up to their neck in it as usual and followed up by Labour Wilson.

    269. Greannach says:

      The double-jobber is an awful dope of a man, really.

    270. Ken500 says:

      Aye what the pollsters tend to forget is Nicola is part of 50% Davidson is part of 20%. More manipulation. Nicola is 30% more overall support at the start. The 2nd rate rejects. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 29 constituencies.

      The North of England votes Tory. They get who they vote for. It was the English working class who voted for Thatcher. They now vote UKIP. London votes 50/50. London cares more about the North of England than they care about themselves?

    271. Phydaux says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill
      Many thanks for that and cheque on its way for quality product, as recommended by the lovely Smallaxe.

    272. Smallaxe says:

      Nana:

      My lovely understanding Sweetheart,it is your good self who is
      an inspiration,your links are invaluable to us all.x

      Peace,Love and understanding

      Nothing funny about that

    273. Nana says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      “that Vaz link is a scorcher. How come this wasn’t on the bbc?”

      Splat my tea on reading that!

      Strange indeed as usually the bbc only rent gobshites

      I have a whole load of links regarding that slimy git Vaz, thought the one I posted was the best. I’ve been going on about csa for so long now and knowing he was the chairman of the commons affairs committee made me so angry. Bloody Westminster filth.

    274. Marcia says:

      I did find an amusing comment on twitter regarding the Scotland – Malta football match.

      ‘According to the GERS figures, Malta 4 – Scotland 2.’

    275. Clydebuilt says:

      Call KayE’s morning Moanin is now dominated by Better Together……… Time to get off the keyboards and call in between 9.00 and 10.00am

    276. call me dave says:

      @Tinto Child

      Aye I have been catching bits of Melvin and ‘The North’

      On last week’s episode apparently the Scottish kings were more to be trusted than the ones further South. But the North bore no allegiance to anyone blah blah.

      History where they were… good old Melvin.

      ‘Your Call’ or not as the case may be. We have a rosy future say some on shortbread radio and SNP very very bad.

      We can feel the benefits already but can’t explain why and article 50 is a mere bagatelle …. piece of cake for some.

      🙂 Aye right!

    277. heedtracker says:

      Brian Monteith in Hootsman saying honeymoon is over.

      He’s just another chancer that has to assume we’re all idiots. Or, where else would a honeymoon last for years, except in the newsrooms of tory BBC led UKOK hackdom.

      Tory twerp Tomkins 14% elctoral vote.
      Tory twerp Tomkikns 100% tory BBC led press vote.

    278. call me dave says:

      Chiel. became child on my too f@@kk smart tablet sorry!

    279. Robert Peffers says:

      The whole thing about, “Professor”,

      (cough! Cough! Chuckle),

      Adam Tomkins is exactly the same thing that affects the entire World of Yoonionism.

      It is what causes them to act in a manner my wise old Granny used to describe as, “The daised wean syndrome”, (The spoilt Child Syndrome).
      Spilt weans, or as Granny would describe them, “sookies”, tend to feel they were the centre of attention and the most important thing in the entire Universe. This being so their expectations are that everyone else should defer to them in all matters.

      When others ignored them their reactions are totally predictable. The immediately throw a hissy fit, emit high pitched screams and throw toys from their prams or cots.

      The point is that these daised weans of yesterday grown up to be the Yoon political adults of today. They are now in the, “Scream and scream until they make themselves sick”, stage.

      Best to just ignore them but expect them to scream even more frequently, even more loudly and at ever increasingly higher pitch.

      Oh! And be ready to dodge those flying teddy’s and other toys. Be aware they would rather destroy their most loved playthings in their efforts to attract a little bit of attention to themselves.

      There is no actual cure for the syndrome so just learn to ignore them and close your ears and eyes to the worst efforts of, “The Spoiled Child Syndrome”. It will not cure them but they will eventually give up attempting to gain your attention and go off to make life miserable for some other poor unsuspecting adults.

      I do believe the present, “Brexit”, is the start of them going off to bother some other, as yet unsuspecting, adults.

    280. heedtracker says:

      Morrison’s filled doughnuts back to boxed in union jacks this morning! Cappuccino. Tasty.

      SO I asked the nice Morrison’s customer services lady:D

    281. Smallaxe says:

      @ Kay wi’anE.

      I forward this epistle to you from a “friend”

      Dear Kaye, I have a problem and I hope that you can help
      through a condom burst on April 1st my periods two weeks late
      I do hope you can help me Kaye
      Could you please help tell my man
      That I am not a cheating girl
      I got preggers from a toilet Pan.

      Peace,love and Virile toilet pans

    282. heedtracker says:

      Aye I have been catching bits of Melvin and ‘The North’

      That lot have gone stark staring mad. They hardly give Scotland a mention at all. How can you do a history series, a major ground breaking all new BBC production, that completely turns its back on the never never land neighbour on your northern border? They focus entirely on the North of England’s relationship and influence with the south of England which is completely BBC but really bad show.

      Just because we’re used to this crap from dudes like Melvin, we shouldn’t accept it. The only mention they do give S_____d a mention, another “historian” explains to Melvin why S_____d should actually be England, as a king of the North invaded S_____d and should have won but died of natural causes in the Grampians, so they went home.

      Think it was this. Just like the Romans, they were beaten and thrown out.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dun_Nechtain

      Hopefully BBC radio iplayer catchup will also be pay walled soon. Not missing much.

    283. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker – she laughed?

      re Tomkins – “Last year he was a visiting professor at the Jerusalem university, where he ran a course on national security.”

      From the Palestine Solidarity website I linked to upthread.

      Q: How come a lecturer in law runs courses in national security in Jerusalem? Another Tomkins puzzle.

    284. Smallaxe says:

      Robert Peffers:

      Sir I hope that you caught my reply to your post to myself on
      “Junkies” thread @ 2:11pm.

    285. Vambomarbeley says:

      I wonder what is the age break down of comentators and readers on Wings. I for instance born 53. I know some who are older and some younger.
      My point is are we getting the message out across the whole age group. I would target also those unable to vote, as they can pass on the message. Also the younger ones who are Scotland’s future.
      Sit the grand child on the knee and read them Wings.

    286. Dr Jim says:

      The Media

      Unionists get to shout loudest
      But ex Nationalists get paid to go on the telly and appear in newspapers and get to squeal at an enormous volume

      You get no say if you’re anonymous, nobody cares, nobody’s interested because you’re a nobody, but if you’re a failed somebody and will say what’s required you become interesting and knowledgeable again you might even write a book when you’re told what to write and how to write it

      Ah Integrity, always a price worth paying (for)

      Me cynical? Never!

    287. Breeks says:

      Brexit was a fork in the road. The more radical, with a small ‘r’ like Craig Murray, and myself, felt we should have gone for the fast track option to put the Union under greatest pressure when it was off balance and floundering.
      The SNP resisted that, and plumped for the safer, cautious option of letting the hysteria die down, and calm measured reflection continue to chip away at the edifice of pro-Indy opinion polls.

      The window closed on the first option in the first couple of weeks after Brexit, but the expectation that events were “quickening” did not die with it but has endured, but without much evidence of progress, this heightened expectation risks turning into frustration. And frustration for all. We should ALL be alert to that danger. Don’t slag each other, sit down and listen. We all want the same thing FFS.

      For a significant number of us, it isn’t enough to be making progress, we have to be seen to be making progress.

      Yes, we know that Brexit and article 50 is a ticking time bomb, but why must we wait for it going off before spelling out at length and in depth what exiting Europe will mean for Scottish businesses, people and our kids? It is a dangerous presumption that the country will warm to independence on a wave of collective solidarity. We should right now be pressing home the explicit, objective arguments of why Scotland MUST be kept in Europe. Convince our nation of that, and we make independence a much smaller mouthful to swallow. We should focus on the result not at first as growth in support for Indy, but a reduction in peoples’ resistance to it. That’s where the patience is needed. Not squandered waiting for Theresa May to roll double six.

      The Brexit vote in Scotland proved there was support for Europe in Scotland; that means people who want to remain European but were not won over to full Independence. It is because these people were not persuaded by Nationalist arguments in 2014 that we should be pumping up the volume on the tangible dangers of exiting Europe which are not explicitly nationalist. You don’t have to be nationalist to recognise the collapse of marketing opportunities and protection lent to your business by the various trade agreements which cease to exist the moment Britain triggers article 50. Your access to universities and jobs abroad is restricted, and that is a two way street. Never mind undecided would-be nationalists, half of England might just about agree with us too.

      Where is the appeal to these “non-nationalists”? Because there should be one.

      Isn’t that an open goal for an apolitical grassroots organisation which is distinct from politics but representative of ordinary people? Maybe we could call it Young European Scotland perhaps. Or Your Europe Safe. Yes Europe Suits?

      We are getting the message, the SNP is doing its thing, juggling difficult issues in very tight spaces. That’s the political thing. That’s for the SNP to decide. Fine. But in my opinion it is YES which needs to redefine a roll for itself, and engage constructively with pro-European Scots and go out of its way to include those who remain shy about the SNP or full on Independence. Right now, we need an urgent Strategic YES Review and get this mighty YES battleship back in the water. Not preaching the politics of EU and Indy, leave that to the SNP, but the cold hard facts and cosy comfort zone which comes or goes with European membership.

      If people are allowed to ambivalent about Europe, then Brexit won’t do a damn thing to help our quest. Right now we should be in the middle of a vigorous campaign spelling out why staying in Europe is the only good option and a vital necessity for our future.

      Maybe that isn’t a job for YES. Maybe it should be something new. But it needs to happen and happen soon, or Westminster will steal our EU membership like it stole our YES referendum.

      And oh! Look! I haven’t mentioned Corbyn, Dugdale or the damned Labour Party once.

    288. Ken500 says:

      Is Tomkins wife Israeli? An immigrant but Tomkins wants to cut immigration. Another hypocrite. Swanning round on Scottish taxpayers money. Never at his post. Westminster policies depopulated Scotland. Many people had to emigrate to get a job. There is a 40million disporia. In the US, NZ, Canada and Australia etc. Israel is an apartheid country of immigrants. One rule for them another for everyone else. 122 Nuclear warheads. Supported and aided by US money. A US military base in the Middle East. Helping to illegally bomb the Middle East to bits. Destroying the world economy.

    289. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      So begins another week of SNP V.V.V.Bad.

      SNP Peaks (again).

      Police, Fire SNHS, Education, Infrastructure failing while poverty and inequality are rising all under 10 years of SNP governance.

      “2/3 of Families will not cooperate with their named person”

      No appetite for second divisive “argument of the past” IndyRef2 when the SNP should be concentrating on the day job.

      These are the points which will be played on a loop from now until May 2017.

      As a lot of you have noted about these “post truth days” MSM/BBC etc. don’t care if what is churned out is untrue, ambiguous or just denial by omission.

      Councils like Aberdeen City and Glasgow require this narrative to be pushed hard (don’t blame us it is all the fault of the SNP at Holyrood) if they are to hold on by their fingernails.

    290. Dr Jim says:

      I’m told Costa Coffee imports it’s milk from England and Wales to Scotland, for some reason won’t buy locally in Scotland
      Anybody out there know more?

    291. Capella says:

      Brexit and Nicola’s reaction is discussed on Radio Scotland this morning. Mike Russel gives a pretty robust performance on this issue. Those critical of the SNP approach could listen and hear them spell it out. From 2 hrs 8 mins 30 secs in:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07qfszd

    292. Smallaxe says:

      Vambomarbeley says:
      5 September, 2016 at 10:23 am
      I wonder what is the age break down of comentators and readers on Wings. I for instance born 53. I know some who are older and some younger.

      Hi Vambomarbeleye,born 53, I am 65 and 3/4rs,unlike yourself I
      was born when I was 18.Sorry your Mum had such a long pregnancy, I thought my Mom’s was long but I think your’s holds the record so far,unless someone knows different?

      You are correct regarding our grandchildren they are the future,they are our investment in the future.We are not indoctrinating them as some would say. I believe we are warning them about the real monsters that do and will still
      exist in the world that they will inherit.

      Peace,Love and long Pregnancies:-)

    293. call me dave says:

      A younger chap at the next table to me right now in the cafe extolling the virtues of independence to his fellow coffee drinkers.

      He knows it all chapter and verse, oil, the vow , fishing and Catalonia, BBC bias.

      Geez! I’m convinced. Hope his friends are. 🙂

    294. Robert Louis at 11.23pm

      A rant it is indeed. Without a lot of understanding of political dynamics.

    295. Smallaxe says:

      Breeks:

      Great post as usual!

      Peace,Love and Pump up the Volume.

    296. Tam Jardine says:

      Vambomarbeley

      To get an idea why don’t you do the survey on the top bar of this site- you have to input a bit of info about your own views and demographics but it gives you a bit of a snapshot of the readership, range of views and demographics.

    297. carjamtic says:

      As anyone involved in emergency services would tell you,on arrival at an ‘incident’,most of the time the ‘screamers’ are okay…focus on the quiet ones.

      The car crash that is ‘Brexit’ hasn’t even happened yet and already the screamers are out and I think we all know why.

      Meanwhile in Scotland,Nicola Sturgeon and her team (who,in the interest of clarity are not the drivers,but the actual rescue team) try to offer reassurance,(as any good,worthwhile first aider would) and calm the situation.

      They then,seek to find the best way possible to minimise the impact of the oncoming disaster,to reduce the number of potential casualties and getting as many people as possible prepared,to ‘brace for impact’ by using any means available and even at times being prepared,to put themselves ‘in the line of fire’

      In return,the screamers,scream louder,the MSM/BBC even offer them a microphone (set to maximum volume) so we can all hear them,but strangely/hysterically they scream “SNP Baaad” this is not rehearsed scripted,screaming is it ?,surely not…. but as the day of impact draws ever closer,you wonder are these screamers really worth saving….yes, of course they are,because as just as in an iScotland,no one gets left behind,even annoying “me,me,me” screaming fuckwits.

    298. Ken500 says:

      Tomkins is married to an American born in New York. They met at Oxford but he wants to cut immigration. Like many Tory politicians. No empathy or social awareness etc. Out of touch. Can’t help it.

      Merkel gets 19% The other party gets 20%. Both outvoted by other Parties. One gets 30%. UKIP type hysteria. The AFD gets 10% of the electorate vote. Same as UKIP.

    299. Hamish100 says:

      If Scotland doesn’t want nuclear weapons or to go to war etc and we remain in the union with England we have been clearly told by the tory in the Scottish Office and sidekick in Holyrood that their boss says we don’t care. You’ll dae as yir telt!! -or words to that effect. The Scottish people have no say. A bit like brexit really.

      If we decide to remain in the EU as a nation we can remove such weapons from our shores and decide whether we go to war or not-(NATO optional for me as in the Indyref 1 they were saying we would be excluded. So be it. We can be neutral or seek other allies eg Russia!!

      Watch the USA and others come running to our door.WE can then decide what route to take.

      I

    300. Hamish100 says:

      If Scotland doesn’t want nuclear weapons or to go to war etc and we remain in the union with England we have been clearly told by the tory in the Scottish Office and sidekick in Holyrood that their boss says we don’t care. You’ll dae as yir telt!! -or words to that effect. The Scottish people have no say. A bit like brexit really.

      If we decide to remain in the EU as a nation we can remove such weapons from our shores and decide whether we go to war or not-(NATO optional for me as in the Indyref 1 they were saying we would be excluded. So be it. We can be neutral or seek other allies eg Russia!!

      Watch the USA and others come running to our door.WE can then decide what route to take.

      WE MUST REMAIN IN THE EU INDEPENDENT

    301. Ken500 at 9.06

      “It doesn’t matter what currency is used. It is just a form of exchange. What matters is resources and how they are used.”

      Correct. We are getting all tied up in peripheral argument about currency again. Once we establish that we have a stable economy and are comfortably self-sufficient the currency issue disappears as an issue. We got tied up in a frantic Better Together diversion that was merely an arm of Project Fear in the later stages of the referendum and it cost us most of our momentum.

      I know of no other country achieving independence in a state of frenzied worry about what currency they would use. I can just imagine James Connolly and Padraig Pearce worrying about it as they marched into the Dublin GPO in 1916.

    302. Smallaxe says:

      Les Wilson says:
      5 September, 2016 at 8:37 am
      Can someone tell me who our preferred printer is, if we have one.

      I can only tell you who Not to go to Les!

      Don’t go near that W.Caxton, I think he’s Eng_ _sh.

    303. Hamish100 says:

      small axe,

      I know many folk who are English, good people and support Independence and some who don’t. I know even more “very proud Scots” who would sell their granny and their country for a wee OBE bauble or two.

      The nationality of the person isn’t important to me regarding who I buy from. It is important if they put Scotland down or put other nations first.

    304. Petra says:

      Just having a wee look through some of the posts.

      @ Effijy says at 10:04 am ……. ”What is it about the “NO WE DON’T WANT YOU OR THE TORIES” message that Scotland has sent out consistently for generations? Perhaps the Prof can explain where all the promises his party made to steal the Independence Referendum are?” …..

      Effijy thanks for the wee reminder of all of the broken Tory and Labour promises. Thanks too for attempting to keep the BBC petition going. No point on us all bleating on about media bias (BBC probably our greatest enemy) if we’re not going to make an attempt to do anything about it. If it could only get over the 100,000 mark it would have to be presented to / discussed at Westminster. We know they’ll do nothing about it, at the end of the day, but a bit more negative publicity (on record) for the BBC.

      Someone else tackling the BBC head on. I just hope that they find the means to get this, no doubt, excellent programme ‘broadcast’ far and wide. Maybe the BBC will broadcast it for them, lol.

      http://indyref2.scot/the-bbc-bias-documentary-is-our-chance-to-hit-back

      ……………………………………………

      @ Andy-B says at 2:23 pm …. ”Craig Murray, having a go at Nicola Sturgeon, and the SNP again, give it a rest Craig.”

      Yeah I wish he would give it a rest too Andy. I’ve got a great deal of respect for Craig … whistleblower … and have great sympathy for him in relation to what he had to sacrifice in doing so, however on occasion he seems to lose the plot altogether. More than anything I fear some of his reasoning ability is marred by a sense of rejection (by the SNP).

      He’s got no idea what Nicola Sturgeon (Committees and experts) is doing behind the scenes (working her butt off no doubt) and planning for the future and his comments about her not wanting Independence are utterly, utterly ridiculous, so much so that I can see why he was rejected by the SNP. For Nicola to jump the gun and hold a Referendum before we have any idea of the potential outcome of Brexit would be like committing political kamikaze … for her, her Party and the Independence movement overall.

      She has to provide expert advice, facts and figures, to the effect that we can go it alone, that Brexit would prove to be detrimental for Scotland and broadcast it far and wide in the hope that it will influence people to change their opinion. She has to know what exactly has been / is acting as a deterrent to voting for Independence (hence the questionnaire) and that we have the ‘numbers’ to win the next Referendum. If we go ahead and lose it, not only will she (and we) be the laughingstock of the World but the chance of getting our Independence could be off the table for evermore, especially if we continue to be invaded by rUK relocators like Wales.

      How many prior no voters / undecided are going to vote for Independence when they have no idea what kind of deal rUK will get or not: the impact of Brexit, especially as they will have been negatively influenced by the oil situation and GERS figures? What individual of any standing or influence on the World stage is going to admire a Leader that comes across as being a totally unprofessional, shortsighted nincompoop? She and her Party are our ONLY means to getting our Independence and I just wish Craig would waken up to the fact and support her instead of just havering on. We’ve got enough enemies out there without adding Craig and his ilk to the list.

      …………………………………………………

      @ boris says at 9:39 pm …..

      https://caltonjock.com/2016/09/04/aberdeen-an-enlightened-city-or-a-city-of-luddites-2017-will-provide-the-answer-break-with-the-unionist-s-and-embrace-the-nationalists-or-keep-the-heid-doon-and-stick-with-westminster/

      Great stuff Boris. Really interesting. The corruption and behaviour of that crowd would make your hair stand on end and I think we can safely say that what’s been going on in Aberdeen could be multiplied by around 30 or so (constituencies) over the years.

      A wee bit of a laugh in there too ”The female senior manager, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was seen by Mr McNeil performing oral sex on then manager Brian Woodcock.”

      …………………………………………

      @ Ken500 says at 8:21 pm …. ”Is Tomkins wife Israeli? An immigrant? Two faced hypocrites. Andrew Neil’s wife is an immigrant but they want a cut in immigration.”

      As far as I know she’s from the US Ken.

    305. Breastplate says:

      Well said Breeks, completely agree.
      There’s absolutely nothing wrong with two Yessers disagreeing, actually I find it critical that this should happen.
      An echo chamber is to be avoided, reasoned and logical debate should be welcomed and anyone spiking the guns of independence should be given a good boot up the arse.

      I don’t believe Craig Murray or Peter A. Bell have come anyway close to damaging Indyref2 or Independence, on the contrary I believe the disagreement keeps the SNP on their toes because they do read what we Cybernats think.
      This of course is only my humble opinion.

      On the subject of material change, the biggest change in my opinion has been EVEL, second class citizens being represented by second class MPs. That was enough, again in my opinion, for us to break the Union there and then.

      While I’m having a rant.
      Every No voter is pro independence, just not pro independence for Scotland.
      Every No voter is a hypocrite.
      Every Scottish No voter is a disgrace to their country.

    306. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Breeks @ 10.35am

      Well said that man, superb post.

      It got me thinking. In 1914, “England” was unprepared for World War I, took a few knocks at the start, but, with the assistance of The Empire (including significantly their Scottish colony) and for the final push, the USA, saw off Germany.

      When Hitler grabbed power in the 1930s, the likes of Churchill saw what was coming down the road, warned against the lack of preparation for war, but were ignored.

      War came, again, “England” was unprepared. The elite forces of the Scottish colony were sacrificed at St Valery, but, again, The Empire and the USA came to the rescue and it Germany were 0-2 down.

      The Germans rebuilt, now, they have out-played England and are ahead on penalties. So, England wants to call the game off and get off the park.

      England is in its usual position, totally unprepared for the changes and the aggro which Brexit will bring. This time, however, the Empire has largely gone and what is left is so pissed-off by perfidious Albion, they will not ride to the rescue.

      The Scottish colony is also pissed-off and they will, as always, lie, cheat and steal in an effort to keep us onside.

      England is in flux, we should be ready to take advantage of this, so, when Brexit is triggered, Scotland can finally go its own way and be rid of our bullying, needy neighbour.

    307. Richard MacKinnon says:

      To all those that replied to my comments yesterday thank you. I find it near impossible to discuss one to one on Wings because there is no ‘reply’ box as with other sites. I have a theory why this is, I dont think the Reverend much likes the idea of too much constructive debate.
      In answer to those replies, I think unionists’ (Westminster and Scottish) tactics toward the indeyref2 debate will be to refuse get involved. If there is not agreement from both sides to hold a referendum then it will not be seen as legitimate. This is a massive problem for the nationalists. If I am wrong then please explain why. Im sure our FM would like to know as well.

    308. Smallaxe says:

      Hamish100:

      Hi Hamish,sorry if my sense of humour has offended you,that
      was not my intention. I have a daughter living in Wales,she is
      married to a Dutch gentleman, I have another daughter in the
      Preston area,she was brought up there and considers herself
      Anglo/Scots.My daughter in Preston is married to an Afro/ Caribbean gentleman and has honoured me with two beautiful
      mixed race grandchildren. I again apologise for the misunderstanding.I am not racist!

      Peace,Love and Understanding

      Nothing funny about that

    309. call me dave says:

      Lloyd’s may move out of London without Brexit ‘clarity’, warns insurance chief.

      https://archive.is/JEyyA

      Oh wait! it said ‘May’ move.

      PS:
      Torrance muses again. Lots of Maybees aye, or maybees no!

      SNP might peak, however its Ifs and buts and on the other hand coulds. It’s all very difficult for him you know.

      https://archive.is/affzl

      Never mind heatwave coming?

    310. scotspine says:

      Tomkins just on Radio Northern Colony, telling us how it is colonial style. Eat yer cereal porridge wogs.

    311. shug says:

      Just heard Tomkins on the radio spouting we are all leaving together – like he knows what is planned -ha ha

      Like London will share their plans with a smelliesocks that knows his place. Sometimes ones staff get above themselves!

      BBC has been giving Brexit big licks today. Call Kays had a surprising line of callers (unselected I am sure) looking forward to leaving.

    312. Smallaxe says:

      Reverend Stuart Campbell:

      Could you please tell your under house parlour maid to inform
      the footman to to tell your butler,that I am Not Posting too
      QUICKLY!
      Peace,Love and Mrs Beeton.

    313. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Smallaxe

      “Could you please tell your under house parlour maid to inform the footman to to tell your butler,that I am Not Posting too QUICKLY!”

      The message does not refer to you (personally) but rather ‘you’ (plural). WE are posting to quickly for WoS server to deal with all the requests. Just try again after 15 seconds or so.

    314. heedtracker says:

      Q: How come a lecturer in law runs courses in national security in Jerusalem? Another Tomkins puzzle.

      High profile politics in or near conflict regions, is a great for carpetbaggers like Tomkins to get noticed. He’s not that interested in New Zealand’s political things at all really, for example.

      A lot of his academic European law stuff was focused on the Balkans and that’s probably where the Slovene woman who says BetterTogether for you Scotland comes from.

      Try asking the vote NO or else Scotland berk to comment in her native Slovenian for example. Never happens.

      Also, the nice Morrison’s customer service lady wasn’t in this morning:D

    315. Smallaxe says:

      Proud Cybernat:

      Thanks my good friend, I was aware of the situation with the
      posts,it was only me being daft again.Maybe I should stop the
      humour,you are not the only person today who has misunderstood
      my ravings,keep up with your imgur posts, I’m loving Them.

      Do you know that I do all this gibberish on a tablet using only 1 finger? There should be an Olympic thingy for this.

      I also speak several languages including English,Scots,Glaswegion,Rubbish and Obscene:

      Peace Always

    316. sinky says:

      call me dave says: Torrance muses again. Lots of Maybees aye, or maybees no!

      SNP might peak, however its Ifs and buts and on the other hand coulds. It’s all very difficult for him you know.

      Well worth reading Scot Goes Pop on the polls

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/

    317. Grouse Beater says:

      McKinnon: “I am wrong then please explain why.”

      We indulged you’re bemusement at length last week. You put the same fallacious question this week. Go away.

    318. heedtracker says:

      Richard MacKinnon says:
      5 September, 2016 at 12:01 pm
      To all those that replied to my comments yesterday thank you.

      Nome of that’s even remotely sane Dick. Make yourself useful and explain why the Hootsman thinks a honeymoon lasts for 5 years at least. Or is it just another day of toryboy yoon buffoonery and wishes, to the blessed St Margret of Thatcher?

    319. Grouse Beater says:

      Shug: “Call Kaye had a surprising line of callers looking forward to leaving.”

      I can hardly detect a Scots accent these days. Certainly, all the ‘experts’ in Scotland, bar the regular doctor, appear to be English.

    320. louis.b.argyll says:

      Gave up linked Torrance article after three and a half words..terribly written.

    321. Dr Jim says:

      I used to work many years ago in a fairly big sales organisation and there was a really busy man worked there at that time, if you were going up the stairs for something you would meet him on his way down always with papers in hand looking busy and the same in reverse if you were coming down he was rushing up

      This man was so busy he used to get folk to carry out little favours for him by doing some of his work because he was attending to other stuff and people being people obliged this busy man

      This busy man rose to a managerial role within the company in a few short years but was still always on the go either up or down those stairs always with urgency

      It was only after a goodly number of years people discovered what I had sussed out from the moment I met this busy man and it was he had no clue about the job he was supposed to be doing so got everybody else to do all the constituent parts of that job for him while he spent his time….Hiding on the stairs

      If you have a good look back at Theresa May’s career she’s risen to the dizzy heights of Prime Minister by hiding on the stairs

      Good work if you can get it (you gotta laugh)

    322. Grouse Beater says:

      Can anybody name a topic ‘Call Kaye’ has held that was a good news story for the SNP government?

      By concentrating on the negative and ignoring the positive – and I mean ignore – BBC gives a false impression of events and popularity.

      It’s free to exaggerate and spin – which it does to great effect. Cue freeloader Prof Tomkins followed by ‘Scott from Edinburgh’ to make an impartial call.

    323. crazycat says:

      @ Richard MacKinnon at 12.01

      There are both good and bad aspects of “reply” buttons.

      I have identified the post of yours to which I am replying by its time – someone reading the thread will then be able to refer back to you if desired. I will also be able to see any reply to me from you as I continue to refresh the comments.

      If, however, I had “nested” my reply under yours, I would have to repeatedly return to your post to see if you had responded. I would find that very irritating.

      No system is perfect; I don’t agree with you about the motive for choosing the current one. It may also come with the set-up – Scot Goes Pop! has nesting and I believe that’s a consequence of his choice of free platform.

    324. Robert Kerr says:

      @McKinnon 12.01

      You state.

      “tactics toward the indeyref2 debate will be to refuse get involved. If there is not agreement from both sides to hold a referendum then it will not be seen as legitimate.”

      I find your post(s) highly offensive.

      Why do you conflate “involvement” and “agreement”?

      Who shall deem a “non-agreed” referendum as “not legitimate”?

      There is no place for smart-assed puerile concern trolls here. Please go away.

    325. Grouse Beater says:

      Shug: “Just heard Tomkins on the radio spouting we are all leaving together.”

      I’m afraid the iffy Freeloader exhibits his normal chronic inability to do any homework.

      The Treaty between Scotland and England does NOT confer any kind of federal or regional status upon Scotland, but instead offers an “equal” status.

      That equality has been eroded by dint of Scotland not having powers or laws to resist English encroachment in all aspects of Scottish life, politics, and infrastructure.

      Consequently, we still have the right to say we wish to remain part of the EU, and the Scottish government has the right to seek endorsement for its resistance to unlawful domination from its own electorate in Scotland.

    326. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Robert Kerr,
      You say you find my posts highly offensive. Why? Because I don’t agree with you? Because I ask questions you find difficult to answer?
      That is interesting and it tells me I must be onto something here. Nobody seems to want to challenge my theory that to hold a second Scottish referendum both sides need to agree to it beforehand. I pose the theory that without that agreement a referendum supported by only nationalist voices would be seen as a farce, like a football team without any opposition, how can that be called a game?
      So come on guys less of the bitchy stuff, just please explain how’s this going to work, tell me and then I will go away.

    327. Donald says:

      O/T – if you hear someone in a café, etc. extolling the benefits of independence, walk over and them you overhead their conversation and found what they were saying pretty convincing. Makes people feel more confident in dong it and more likely to do the same again. We need as many of these conversations as possible.

    328. Anagach says:

      Robert Kerr,
      I pose the theory that without that agreement a referendum supported by only nationalist voices would be seen as a farce

      Consider history a challenge to the “theory” that both sides have to agree a referendum on Independence.

      If some elements want to encourage people not to participate that is their choice – that happens in nearly all elections to some extent. But the turnout would have to be very much lower than normal elections to have any kind of impact.

    329. Breastplate says:

      @Richard MacKinnon.
      Should Scotland be an independent country?

    330. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ McKinnon

      Why are you so scared of democracy?

    331. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Nana @ 2:06pm.

      Note that this will be after Emergency Question on breaches of International Humanitarian Law in Yemen.

      Emergency Question raised by Hillary (Bomber) Benn.

      Red Tory hypocrisy knows no end.

      Maybe BAE Systems cheque for his Syria Intervention speech bounced!

    332. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Proud Cybernat,
      I’m not scared of democracy. I am suggesting, pre-empting I think is the word, what the unionists tactics will be.

    333. heedtracker says:

      Coffee time with silly old Dunc Hothersaall, who recommends… Whatever happens, YES 2 and the SNP, don’t resort to this level of SLabour sneakiness.

      http://labourhame.com/were-a-jock-tamsons-bairns/

    334. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Breastplate,
      I voted Yes in 2014 but the majority of Scots voted No and I respect that decision.

    335. heedtracker says:

      Richard MacKinnon says:
      5 September, 2016 at 2:18 pm
      Proud Cybernat,
      I’m not scared of democracy. I am suggesting, pre-empting I think is the word, what the unionists tactics will be.

      Well Dick, your fellow toryboy and yoon zealot Torrance, has answers for you.

      http://archive.is/KqDfH

      Torrance says, the SNP are bad and independence is also bad but

      “There’s actually a good case for the UK Government to call the SNP’s bluff, by offering a fresh Section 30 Order on the back of Article 50, but with another time limit. The former Conservative leader Lord Hague recently argued that asking the Commons to endorse negotiations early next year would “flush out” those wishing to “flout” the result of the EU referendum, not just the SNP but those who agree with Labour leadership contender Owen Smith about the need for a second ballot. ”

      Thank you to hard core Conservative yoon Kevrage for that one too.

    336. Breastplate says:

      @Richard MacKinnon, that question was for the here and now not what you thought of independence in 1976.
      Could you answer please.

    337. Breastplate says:

      Forgive the tardy reply, there is always a delay in loading comments and then I tend to turn my attention elsewhere.

    338. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ MacKinnon

      “I’m not scared of democracy. I am suggesting, pre-empting I think is the word, what the unionists tactics will be.”

      That’s not a tactic – that’s suicide. The result of a legitimate referendum cannot be overturned just because some of the electorate take a stropp and say “We’re no’ playin’.”

      Well, tough titty. All the easier for indy.

    339. Les Wilson says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      Hi, I do not know how Imgur allowed your Jpegs, I joined and tried to post one I made on BBC bias.They use google chrome and suspect Google did not like it.

      I would have liked to show you and will, if I can get it to you?

      Imgur will not let me sign in now either, then I noticed it is based in England, so maybe it was or was not google, maybe both.

    340. heedtracker says:

      Elizabeth-Anne Callaghan, a NO voter in 2014, says the Slabour’s attempt to push Scots away from a second vote by polarising our politics is letting down Scots who need bold, reforming government today.

      So we now enter into some kind of NO to Indyref: the sequel charm offensive period. I’ve been an observant by-stander of this in its first days. Social media is always a good place to observe, and it has been active.

      As a NO voter, some of the many fantasy debates I had with friends, family and work colleagues were around the practicalities of independence – currency, the economy, pensions and border control with England (most are very keen on this). Therefore I naively thought this was the tone the charm offensive would take. It hasn’t. It’s been more just predictably offensive.”

      So that’s why I Elizabeth-Anne Callaghan am now YES 2 and will vote SNP for ever and ever.

      Its that easy. Keep treating us like morons, red and blue tory delights of yoon.

    341. Smallaxe says:

      Smallaxe says:
      5 September, 2016 at 11:41 am
      Les Wilson says:
      5 September, 2016 at 8:37 am
      Can someone tell me who our preferred printer is, if we have one.

      I can only tell you who Not to go to Les!

      Don’t go near that W.Caxton, I think he’s Eng_ _sh.

      Hamish100 says:
      5 September, 2016 at 11:46 am
      small axe,

      I know many folk who are English, good people and support Independence and some who don’t. I know even more “very proud Scots” who would sell their granny and their country for a wee OBE bauble or two.

      The nationality of the person isn’t important to me regarding who I buy from. It is important if they put Scotland down or put other nations first.

      I replied thus:

      Smallaxe says:
      5 September, 2016 at 12:03 pm
      Hamish100:

      Hi Hamish,sorry if my sense of humour has offended you,that
      was not my intention. I have a daughter living in Wales,she is
      married to a Dutch gentleman, I have another daughter in the
      Preston area,she was brought up there and considers herself
      Anglo/Scots.My daughter in Preston is married to an Afro/ Caribbean gentleman and has honoured me with two beautiful
      mixed race grandchildren. I again apologise for the misunderstanding.I am not racist!

      Peace,Love and Understanding

      Nothing funny about that
      ————————————————————–
      I await a reply from Hamish:re; The implied racism against me!

      Am I wrong to expect a reply? Or does anyone else agree with
      Hamish.

      I was referring to William Caxton the 15th Century Englishman
      who is credited with bringing the first printing press to England

    342. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Les Wilson

      Not sure why you’re having problems, Les. I doubt it’s anything to do with Chrome–that’s just a browser. But I normally use Firefox. Maybe that’ll work better for you. Maybe try and create a new account??

    343. manandboy says:

      FOR TWO YEARS the Labour /Conservative /Lib Dem Unionist Alliance have been belly rumbling about how IndyRef14 divided Scotland. Since the EU referendum – not a cheep. Funny that.

    344. Lochside says:

      Why is it that SNP loyalists on here denigrate anyone who ‘breaks ranks’ over SNP policy being criticised? Craig Murray made a legitimate criticism of not just the lack of action by NS on Brexit, but the lack of a positive ongoing campaign for Independence..full stop.

      He made the salient point that based on his experience as a senior diplomat, we are fast running out of time to make a decisive break with RUK while Fannie May and co. deliberately dither and create a positive media smoke screen to hide the cluster fuck that they have created. He has been characterised as a bitter and divisive individual on here. I have met the man and talked to him and he is educated and erudite and knows the esoteric and dark world of diplomacy. He should not be ignored.

      Nicola Sturgeon has announced an intention to form alliances with like minded UK politicians to somehow mitigate Brexit. To me, this symbolises the pussyfooting displayed by the SNP so far in this phase. Despite two years down the line, we have no clear answers to the issues that lost us the Referendum. And those of you who think that non-politicised people don’t worry about what currency they are going to use; what welfare system including pensions they will have; and what job opportunities they and their children will enjoy…then you are only deluding yourselves. Remember, over two million people rejected Scottish Independence for what they believed to be legitimate reasons. Amongst that number we can discount half as bigoted OO/True Brits/ and those who cannot contemplate change.

      Most who read this site have those answers…but because of the media black out,the larger population don’t and probably don’t suspect the answers exist. We haven’t shifted the ‘YES’ vote to a majority yet. Many of the 1.6 million ‘Yes’ and most of the 2 million ‘Nos’ don’t read these sites. So they are left with the latest meme i.e. Scotland is a fucked up basket case and Brexit is surging forward. This is what the colonial media are telling all of us.

      I heard some of ‘Call Kaye’ today…more of the same propaganda…smug and strident English settlers, with no hint of irony talking about how ‘we’ voted to leave the EU…with as per usual no challenge from Kaye of her reporter acolytes. One individual stated that he did not want ‘To be in a Union with the French and the Germans’…another little Englander in Moray. Joining them in an uninterrupted procession of stupidity and bigoted invective were the dumb Scot/Brits…unfortunately mainly women braying about ‘opportunities’ and ‘greatness’…straight out of the Bumper Book of British Bullshit.

      the only ray of sunshine was good old ‘George’ from Inverurie who put them all in their place with his straightforward commonsense and he momentarily caused a wobble for Kaye by stating that he was considering writing to his MP complaining about BBC bias because of the one-sidedness of the contributions!…don’t bother George, we’ve all tried and I can’t even get on the bloody programme now as I’m obviously blacklisted along with many others.

      My point is: I am personally demoralised by the SNP’s lack of fight over issues such as bREXIT and GERS, and this latest feeble attempt to form alliances with the enemy in Westminster is the equivalent of lambs lying down with Wolves. Thes bastards in WE are on the ropes..they’ve fucked up so badly that they are running around desperately trying to chum up with every state that they’ve despised or shat on over the years and one by one the doors are being slammed in their ugly coupons. Scotland as a nation should being putting them to the sword…just like the fitba team did last night to Malta…and finishing off the ugly beast that is the Unequal Union between them and us…sooner rather than later.

    345. K1 says:

      Richard,

      ‘(Westminster and Scottish) tactics toward the indeyref2 debate will be to refuse get involved. If there is not agreement from both sides to hold a referendum then it will not be seen as legitimate.’

      My response to you is to ask you how they could refuse to get involved?

      Their ‘rationale’ behind such a refusal and how they justify this publicly?

    346. K1 says:

      Samllaxe,

      My sense is Hamish got the wrong end of the stick, dinnae fret…we all do it sometimes, take the wrong meaning in someone’s post (especially if there is ‘nuance’) etc.

      Yiv done nothin’ tae merit worry Smallaxe…be at Peace 😉

    347. Sassenach says:

      Richard MacKinnon ” just please explain how’s this going to work, tell me and then I will go away”.

      That explains a lot, he is obviously just here to ‘wind us up’, in other words a Troll who will leave when his ‘job’ is done. Usual advice – don’t engage!!

    348. Grouse Beater says:

      McKinnon: “the majority of Scots voted No and I respect that decision.”

      We all do, my that doesn’t negate trying again.

      You’re well past the point of trolling the same question. Go away.

    349. shug says:

      grouse Beater

      I hope you are not suggesting the BBC would select callers!!

      That is an outrageous suggestion

    350. Les Wilson says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      I feel it has something to do with google, as when I signed on it was ok, but when I tried to post the jpeg, google came up and had a oscillating circle in the middle and the screen went a pale grey. It would not allow the posting however it is being used.

      Also emailed Imgur and asked why they had blocked my account, no answer.Oh well. Thanks anyway.

    351. Paula Rose says:

      Now everyone knows I’m an English rose no so wrong ends of stick stuff and for the record Craig Murray spoke at my recent SNP branch meeting to an audience which included many not in the SNP – build those bridges and contacts folk.

    352. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Lochside @ 3:00pm

      I’d like to think that NS announcement of “intention to form alliances with like minded UK politicians to somehow mitigate Brexit.” is not pussyfooting by the SNP but a calculated gamble.

      If none of the other UK Politicians of (Labour/Tory/Fib Dem) publicly agree to work with our elected representatives (and I don’t think they will, you just have to look at statements from Corbyn and Smith on their recent jaunt North of the border) then, surely this ticks the “I will exhaust all options to remain in the EU” box and can be used as an example of why Independence for Scotland is the only option.

      At this point the SNP and the broader Yes movement can loudly proclaim “What is the point of the Union if no one will work with our elected representatives” and maybe some more of the undecided s and soft no’s will come over to our side.

    353. heedtracker says:

      Now everyone knows I’m an English rose no so wrong ends of stick

      Lots of Scots have an English rose in them, sometimes it’s the pretty bit and sometimes its the thorns.

      Christ that’s cheezee. Post a new post Rev, soon:D

    354. Paula Rose says:

      Heedtracker should be one along soon *crosses fingers*

    355. heedtracker says:

      Rancid The Graun says

      Re-electing Corbyn would consign Labour to irrelevance, says Smith

      Party leadership contender urges caution over vote and says incumbent has failed to provide credible opposition to Tories”

      So what happened red tory wise up in their Scotland region, as they slide out of existance, election after election, is not asked by rancid’s crew.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH2eUwEk_1s

      Toryboys now in charge of BBC Newsnight tory grot and presumably what gave us that JK Rowling crap ending of their nightly party political broadcasts on behalf of the Conservative party, are both ex Rancid The Graun top twerps, shock.

    356. Big jock says:

      I am really peed off with the SNP at the moment. I have been a member all my life. I will leave the SNP if the SNP drop independence in favour of a backroom business deal for free trade. Scotland’s people voted for full EU citizenship not some dodgy deal to help business make more money.

      The EU vote was as much about identity as economics. I am European and voted for full EU citizenship. I am not overly concerned with the free trade area. I am concerned with EU rights and my European cousins not money. Nicola needs to tread carefully as this talk could be seen as compromise and sell out.

      Don’t sell out Scotland Nicola. Don’t trust the UK to do anything right for Scotland. Have you not learnt that!

    357. heedtracker says:

      Paula Rose says:
      5 September, 2016 at 3:41 pm
      Heedtracker should be one along soon *crosses fingers*

      An English rose Paula? If only:D

    358. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lochside (3.00)

      Hear hear.

      Everyone admires the professionalism and cohesion of the SNP, but it would do them no harm to have a good-cop/bad-cop routine when dealing with these major issues.

      Whenever John Swinney loses the rag he gets praised sky-high by folk who otherwise let it all wash over them – this has surely been well-noted by the SNP hierarchy, and should have been acted upon well before now.

      Many of us – even non-SNP members – are proud of how NS, Angus Robertson and all other senior SNP figures behave in public. They do us and their country great credit. But we also want and need someone who is prepared to give voice to the legitimate frustration we feel, and do it in a manner which properly expresses that anger.

      This site has called-out senior BTUKOKers as ‘liars’ on several occasions over recent years. To my knowledge not one of them has ever responded directly let alone with any kind of legal action, and that’s because Stuart Campbell’s only ever done it when the lies were plain for all to see and easily verifiable.

      The SNP can’t keep leaving it to social media outlets to do all the dirty work. They could start by telling Gordon Brown to fuck right off with his ‘interventions’ and reminding everyone – point-by-point – how empty ‘The Vow’ was.

    359. CameronB Brodie says:

      A rose by any other name Heed but I suppose there’s no accounting for taste. 🙂

    360. G4jeepers says:

      @Lochside,

      SPOT ON!

    361. robertknight says:

      .
      So Nicola Sturgeon is finally going to listen?
      There’s really only one thing she has to hear:
      we said No to leaving the EU.

    362. Still Positive. says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker @ 3.03

      I would hope that is actually what NS is doing. She has to be seen to try everything, no matter how futile to convince the 55% that Independence is the only way.

      EU Debate just started on Parliament TV – Channel 131 of terrestial TV.

    363. K1 says:

      Ah would never want to be on the wrong end of your schtick PR 😉

    364. manandboy says:

      Knowing that England is now in dire straits since the EU Referendum, the Establishment have mobilised its entire State Propaganda Network. The current tensions in the UK over membership of the EU will most likely lead to an impasse.

      The choice for No voters is between being wrapped in the Union Jack as a shroud, or in the Saltire as a sail powering Scotland to freedom and a new life as an Independent nation.

      The Better Together propaganda war being waged from HQ at 10 Downing St, will be targeting the same vulnerable groups as in IndyRef14, viz. the over 65’s and EU nationals resident in Scotland. It must surely be among the SNP’s priorities to improve the State pension to a level well above the third lowest in the EU and to give cast iron guarantees to the long term overseas population.

      In addition, we need a much better PR dept.

      Actually, I’m just out of sorts with the way things are right now. I’m like a guy whose jigsaw puzzle has quite a few pieces missing making it very difficult to get the whole picture together. Theresa May has a few pieces; Nicola has some more ; and the European Commission I imagine has a few others. And none of them is letting on.

      Not knowing is always the hardest thing to bear.

    365. Shy Unionist says:

      I seem to remember Glasgow also saying No to Mrs Sturgeon on numerous occasions.

    366. Ken500 says:

      Emily Thornberry give the Tories lardy. Brilliant. The Tories are clueless. Useless. Typical Tories. They look sick as parrots.

      David Davis rambling along.’ Up with that we will not put.’ Aye right enough.

    367. Kevin Evans says:

      WARNING – do not listen to today’s call kaye’s phone in on iplayer

      I’ve worked out they’re trying to kill us off with these broadcasts. They’re wanting us to explode or have our blood pressures go through the roof.

      I am so so angry right now. I dunno how much keeping up on opinions I can handle.

    368. Smallaxe says:

      K1:

      Thank you, I was just a bit taken aback by the idea that anyone who has seen my posts on a regular basis would think that I would hold malice against anyone of any race or creed
      who shares this fragile globe with us.

      I thank you again my friend for being kind enough to reply to
      my plea.

      I would like to have seen a reply from the person in question
      to sort this misunderstanding,but it seems that is not forthcoming.

      Peace,Love and Gratitude to you and all who you love:-)

    369. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I seem to remember Glasgow also saying No to Mrs Sturgeon on numerous occasions.”

      You’re too funny. No, really. Now fuck off.

    370. heedtracker says:

      Shy Unionist says:
      5 September, 2016 at 4:39 pm
      I seem to remember Glasgow also saying No to Mrs Sturgeon on numerous occasions.

      Sturgeon also got in on the list vote. Fair enough youre missing this WoS post’s point and whether you like her policies or not, Sturgeon’s vote share’s only gone up and up.

      Whereas, toryboys like Prof Tomkins are, well lets just say next election will decide how the toryboys are doing. Bet their vote share wont change though and that’s despite a extraordinary level of pro tory bias from tory BBC in particular.

      In fact I was a toryboy like you, I’d be wondering why exactly the horrendous tory corruption of the BBC led media is not in fact delivering better and higher , FM Davidson level ballot box results. Is the tory media just shite at everything really, other than boosting tories like Ruthie and JK Rowling to UKOK saint hood?

    371. clipper says:

      Kevin Evans

      Well why in the name of good holy feck do you listen to it then?

      Unless like Stu or somebody you have a professional interest in monitoring them then by listening to/watching them you’re helping to support them.

    372. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…do not listen to today’s call kaye’s phone in…”

      Surely you mean Tokayeo Rose (with an ‘E’)?

    373. Petra says:

      @ Breeks says at 10:35 am …. ‘’Brexit was a fork in the road. The more radical, with a small ‘r’ like Craig Murray, and myself, felt we should have gone for the fast track option to put the Union under greatest pressure when it was off balance and floundering. The SNP resisted that, and plumped for the safer, cautious option of letting the hysteria die down, and calm measured reflection continue to chip away at the edifice of pro-Indy opinion polls.’’

      Fast track option? Do you mean UDI Breeks? If so don’t you think that could have led to a great deal of unrest / violence, even a Civil War? It’s not just BritNat relocators and Orange Order types that want to stick with the Union, hundreds of thousands of ordinary, half-decent, albeit probably ill-informed, Scots want to hitch their wagon to the UK too.

      Breeks I’m known as being a bit of a radical myself (loose cannon in fact), no doubt like any number of people on here, but don’t you think that, as examples, the oil situation, the GERS figures and immigration fears have ‘’chipped away ……. at pro-Indy opinion polls’’. Not so much Brexit at all? And if that is the case patience is called for. Let Nicola get on with the job.

      Breeks: ‘’Yes, we know that Brexit and article 50 is a ticking time bomb, but why must we wait for it going off before spelling out at length and in depth what exiting Europe will mean for Scottish businesses, people and our kids?’’

      Don’t you think that we’ll have to know a bit more about the type of deal that the UK is going to get from the EU before we can spell anything out at length and in depth? I know it’s HIGHLY unlikely but what if for some reason they ARE allowed to stay in the single market?

      Breeks: ‘’We should right now be pressing home the explicit, objective arguments of why Scotland MUST be kept in Europe. Convince our nation of that, and we make independence a much smaller mouthful to swallow.’’

      Don’t you think that Nicola Sturgeon will do just that when Article 50 is triggered, she has a clearer idea of how all of this is going to pan out and has final reports (facts and statistics) from experts on her Brexit Standing Council / Fiscal Committee and so on?

      Breeks: ‘’The Brexit vote in Scotland proved there was support for Europe in Scotland; that means people who want to remain European but were not won over to full Independence. It is because these people were not persuaded by Nationalist arguments in 2014 that we should be pumping up the volume on the tangible dangers of exiting Europe which are not explicitly nationalist.’’

      Breeks I think it’s more complex than that. Some people, like us, will want Independence and to remain in the EU. Some want to remain in the EU but as part of the Union and will opt for remaining in the UK over the EU and vice versa. We’re in a situation now where prior Independence voters, remain voters or not, would vote No (I know of some) due to the changing circumstances in Scotland, such as oil and GERS, not due to Brexit at all. These individuals will cling to the UK apron strings because they see Scotland as being more of an economic basket case, due to propaganda, than a Brexiting UK. We need facts and figures to convince them otherwise. That will come, hopefully, from the Holyrood experts in time.

      Breeks: ‘’Your access to universities and jobs abroad is restricted, and that is a two way street. Never mind undecided would-be nationalists, half of England might just about agree with us too.’’

      How many NO voters in Scotland would be influenced by that argument …. university and jobs abroad? Some yes but we need to provide valid evidence, for example, that highlights that their jobs / homes etc would be under threat.

      Breeks: ‘’Isn’t that an open goal for an apolitical grassroots organisation which is distinct from politics but representative of ordinary people?’’

      I thought we had a number of such organisations already?

      Breeks: ‘’Right now, we need an urgent Strategic YES Review and get this mighty YES battleship back in the water. Not preaching the politics of EU and Indy, leave that to the SNP, but the cold hard facts and cosy comfort zone which comes or goes with European membership.’’

      I understand your frustration Breeks becomes I’m frustrated, angry and even livid at times too. I don’t think that the SNP is perfect either, but they’re head and shoulders above the others, have a great deal to contend with and we should be supporting them at every turn.

      To my mind the name of the game, winning it that is, has always been about education and communication. The SNP have around 120,000 members and should have been using them in a more constructive way, imo. For example they should have had ‘trainers’ dotted around the country holding classes / lectures ‘educating’ members on every relative aspect under the sun, such as the type of information we come across on here or in The National. Individuals, when well-informed, from each group could have been dispersed around the country until we had a VAST network of ‘experts’ holding classes in every Town Hall / even someone’s front room. 120,000 experts ready to answer any question put to them at a front door or at their local town square events.

      If we had been doing that the trainers could have had their ‘knowledge base’ enhanced / updated to include issues relating to Brexit now …. disseminating to others constantly as new data was made available. Nicola Sturgeon has had a lot on her plate between one thing and another and this would take time to co-ordinate. It’s never too late of course and I’m hoping that Tommy Sheppard is going to get something along these lines off the ground.

      Oh and additionally instead of us talking about constructing placards and banners to spread the word / advertise pertinent information this could have been done by the SNP. Data 100% correct and above board legally.

    374. Capella says:

      Breeks & Co
      We’re all frustrated, i.e those of us who want Independence. It is the job of the British Establishment to frustrate the aims of independence movements in their “sphere of influence”.

      How do you suggest we overcome that? How many divisions has the Pope? (as Stalin asked when told his Holiness disapproved of his policies).

      We are going down the democratic route at the moment. We are consulting the Scottish People. Not all of them are as well informed as you.

      If you have a better suggestion, let’s hear it.

    375. Smallaxe says:

      Cappella:

      Thanks for the lyrics to my “theme tune”

      Peace,Love and Music

    376. Macbeda says:

      @ Effigy 10:24 am ish

      Your item
      7, Only way for Scot’s pensions to survive, is to vote No.
      ( Complete Lie as pensions were already guaranteed)

      And now even that is under threat with the triple lock removal even though they are guaranteed.

    377. Capella says:

      @ Smallaxe – Long time fan of Bob Marley. Saw a short documentary made by a typical Aussie presenter but it’s very good. 13 mins.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4OiCUkxGto

      Unbelievable poverty of Trench Town. Wooden shack with corrugated iron roof where Marley grew up but you wouldn’t keep hens in it.
      British colony. HRH should be ashamed of herself.

    378. Proud Cybernat says:

      I hope they remember to call long distance tomorrow morning…

      http://imgur.com/a/OGjME

    379. Gary45% says:

      Kevin Evans@4.50,
      Simple answer to the Bint fae the Valleys on Shortbread, don’t entertain her by listening to her shity wee non entity of a dull load of britnat pish.
      I used to regularly listen to it (having it on in the back ground) whilst working. I stopped listening a while back, however I was doing bookwork at home this morning and stuck it on, fell about laughing at the predictable callers. TOTAL SHITE.
      Some of 6 music is the only thing the EBC can call quality.

    380. Smallaxe says:

      Cappella:

      My wife and myself used to holiday in Jamaica,the first time
      we went we were told that it would be safer to remain in the
      in the hotel complex.Needless to say we ignored this advice and ventured out into town “Ocho Rios”and mixed safely and happily with the local people.To cut a long story short,we met
      some Rasta’s.

      These guys took us to their restaurant”The Jungle Lobster”
      this was situated under a bridge over the white river,from that time on we saw them every year.I had became very friendly
      with one of the Bredren his name is Culture that is his free
      name as Rasta’s look upon their given as a slave name.

      I went back to Jamaica,alone one year to live in the Rasta’s
      place in my tent for several months in the forest,it was 1995
      the 50th birthday celebration for BoB was being held up at his
      Home town of Nine Miles.

      In the next episode I will tell about this,if you or anyone else would be interested.

      Peace,Love and RASTAFARI:-)

    381. Capella says:

      @ Smallaxe – What an intrepid traveller. It’s amazing that Marley died in 1981, a lifetime ago. But he will still be a hero in Trenchtown. I’d love to hear about your escapades but perhaps it should be on off topic?

      Another of HRH subjects was Michael X from Trinidad. He was hung in 1975. HRH signed the death warrant although it had been banned in UK it was still practised in the colonies.
      Here’s a clip from “Royal Babylon” about the impriosonment and death of Michael X. 9 mins.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GnTwOe8iA

    382. Paula Rose says:

      Can we have the full story over in Off-topic Smallaxe cos I’ve got nice comfy sofas over there.

    383. heraldnomore says:

      Hey smallaxe, Bob at the Apollo, 1980. I know, cos I was there. A very treasured memory. Interesting whiff in the air that night.

    384. Xaracen says:

      @Richard MacKinnon
      “Nobody seems to want to challenge my theory”

      You don’t have a theory, you don’t even have a hypothesis.

      You made a couple of silly statements based on a strange idea of faux electoral theory without providing any form of supporting evidence, nor with any working through of reasoned argument, so technically you haven’t even made a case in the first place. No case, then nothing requires refutation, only dismissal. That round filing cabinet beckons.

      You want us to “challenge” your brain-fart, sorry, theory? Then the onus is on you to bloody well present it first. That means it needs to be clearly based on evidence every element of which needs to be clearly sourced, and all chains of reasoning leading to your conclusions need to be fully detailed.

      So you need to do all your homework, and doing so to the proper level of detail will probably take you quite some time.

      Take as much as you need.

    385. Big Jock says:

      Nicola said after the Brexit vote that she would do all in her power to protect what Scotland voted for. She has been around The Eu institutions and countries stating her case.

      Now that this avenue has led up a cul de sac. She wants to talk to UK parties about soft Brexit. The very people who put Scotland in this mess. I am less than impressed. This will be Nicola’s biggest tactical blunder. I have said before we need to lead the people not get dragged along with England’s timetable and agenda.

      So far there has been nothing concrete coming out of this. I will not back any agreement to negotiate Brexit lite. This is waiving a white flag and begging for scraps. That’s the Scotland of old. I know many Snp members beginning to doubt the SNPs ability to deliver independence. If they can’t deliver independence people lose faith and move on. We are in the end of days for the SNPs high point. Without independence in the next 5 years the people including me will give up on the SNP. We have a majority in both parliaments. Now use it!

    386. maureen says:

      Smallaxe

      I hope you continue to post your ravings/musings.
      Along with many others, I enjoy reading your posts.
      There are countless commentators on here that either educate me or just make me laugh out loud. This website would not be the same without the regulars!

    387. Hamish100 says:

      Big Jock,
      You are right. Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

      Decision taken

    388. Not Convinced says:

      The way for the UK government to “refuse to get involved” in IndyRef2 would surely be to for Westminster to not grant a Section 30 order for said referendum, and then argue (in front of the Supreme Court if necessary) that since the constitution is a reserved matter Holyrood has no power to legislate on the matter and that therefore the referendum itself is illegitimate.

      That position then leads the unionist parties and media to putting forward the position that since the the referendum is illegitimate there’s no reason for unionists in Scotland to bother turning up and voting. The end result being one that shows very low turnout, a very big “win” for independence that in no way reflects reality (e.g. >90% in favour of independence) and then Westminster refuses to doing any negotiating with Holyrood afterwards about the subject …

      From a strictly legal POV that might be accurate, though whether it’s politically advisable is another matter entirely! Personally I think that whilst this approach might work in the short term, it makes Better Together in 2014 (and Vote Leave in 2016) look like masters of in-depth forward planning!

    389. Glamaig says:

      @big jock 7:25
      Nicola is an operator. I would say that move is smart. She is seen to be exhausting all possibilities before the last resort of Indyref2. She knows fine well that none of the London parties will give her the time of day, and if they do it will create havoc in Westminster while making the SNP look good and helpful. But what do I know, Im not a politician.

    390. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…would surely be to for Westminster to not grant a Section 30 order for said referendum…”

      The precedent hasalready been established in IndyRef#1. A majority of the Scottish Parliament voted in favour of an Indy plebiscite. Westminster duly rubber-stamped that mandate. They couldn’t really refuse.

      If a majority in the SP vote for anothe Indy referendum then that is the will of the people of Scotland and so, once again, WM must rubber-stamp it. The precedent’s been established so WM can hardly refuse. To refuse would be to deny the people of Scotland their sovereign right. WM simply cannot do that.

    391. carjamtic says:

      UKOK is perfectly balanced,it is equally weak on Brexit and Indyref2.

      Although the slowness of genius (N.S.) is hard to bear,the slowness of mediocrity (T.M.) is actually intolerable.

      The double whammy nightmare,cold sweat’s must be running doon the shucks of Juicy Ruthie’s erse….hmmm….not good….too much ?….fair doos,erase those thoughts.

    392. ben madigan says:

      @ big jock who said “Nicola said after the Brexit vote that she would do all in her power to protect what Scotland voted for. She has been around The Eu institutions and countries stating her case.Now that this avenue has led up a cul de sac. She wants to talk to UK parties about soft Brexit.”

      Give it time BJ. I’m not altogether convinced the SNP’s visits to EU institutions have led to a cul de sac – lots of those top-level and even medium and low level EU politicians are not blinded by UK smoke and mirrors as our people have been and often still are.

      Look at it this way – national survey in by end of november to provide basis for Indy ref2 arguments
      – england triggers art 50 early 2017
      – Scotland triggers indyref2 soon afterwards attempting to achieve consensus in 12-18 months
      – Scotland is independent before the 2019 spring deadline of the Uk exiting the EU with or without any agreements

      That looks like a reasonable timeline – let’s just hope it’s what the SNP and other Independence groups are planning and are happy with

    393. Smallaxe says:

      Glitch starting again O/T in a short time hopefully

    394. Onwards says:

      Not Convinced says:
      5 September, 2016 at 8:03 pm

      The way for the UK government to “refuse to get involved” in IndyRef2 would surely be to for Westminster to not grant a Section 30 order for said referendum..
      ————-

      They could do that, but if there was a majority vote for a second referendum in the Scottish parliament, then it would look anti-democratic.
      Like Scotland was being treated like a colony.
      Even many people who voted No would be outraged.

      SNP and independence support would go through the roof, and then you are talking about the possibility of UDI.

      Or any subsequent advisory referendum could be held on the same day as another election, to maximise turnout.

    395. Orri says:

      Probably already been said but the right to hold consultations and referenda is devolved. Davidson may very well be playing a game in order to defuse that landmine. At a minimum if the SNP are paying for the current consultation she could be trying to get them to claim that as a justification.

      Make no bones about it Westminster’s only card is to refuse to transfer the power to act on a constitutional matter that loses all relevance if the population of Scotland decide that the UK no longer exists and end the Treaty of Union. Westminster might argue that Holyrood still couldn’t repeal the Scottish version of the Act of Union but it’d be politely told to fuck right of.

      As to the idea of an organised boycott. I assume the idea there would be to somehow inflate the numbers of those eligible to vote making it hard to achieve more than 50% of that. That kind of stunt is going to backfire. Moreso if there’s an exit poll that even higher vote for independence than the final tally including postals

    396. Bob Mack says:

      @Smallaxe,

      Depths my friend depths. Never fails to amaze me the peple and experience on this site. Peace Bro.

    397. Smallaxe says:

      Sorry about delay!

      1994

      We go back to Jamaica for September,booked in to a Hotel near the Jungle Lobster,decided to go up to Bob”s resting place at nine miles,taxi,cracked windshield,torn leather seats,it was massive,no two doors the same colour,Man…..A Jamaican limo,
      A Chevy,luxery man…Anyway! The road up to nine miles is
      just about wide enough to stop you freaking out,the cliffside
      plunges down to what I must admit it, was a beautiful jungle
      about 75 deaths below.back soon or soon com.Peace Always

    398. Smallaxe says:

      Sorry,mean to be O/T

      Peace Always

    399. Fred says:

      @ Petra, don’t normally read long posts as life is too short but yours is excellent.

      @ Drama Queens threatening to resign from the SNP, just fuck off the noo & gie us peace!!! See if ah care!

    400. galamcennalath says:

      All this talk from Yoons of no IndyRef2. There has to be one. Nothing will be settled until there is and it’s all their fault!

      1. Scotland has voted in two referendums and the result is to stay in both UK and EU. Because of WM’s course these two outcomes and mutually incompatible. To resolve the impasse forced upon us, Indy must be revisited with another referendum.

      2. On 18th Sept 2014 Scotland was asked to choose between sweeping new powers amounting Home Rule, permanency of Holyrood in law, and guaranteed membership of the EU … Versus … Indy. WM’s guaranteed constitutional outcome has been replaced with DevoFA, EVEL, and Brexit. Basically the outcome of IndyRef1 has been declared null and void by WM.

      3. The legitimacy of IndyRef1 was destroyed before even the votes were cast. So many lies were told by BT – negative ones about Indy, positive ones about the Union. As things have turned out, many of these have actually been shown to be reversed, even in just two years. Guaranteed jobs, investment, orders, etc … all turned out in reverse.

      4. Democracy of the Union has all but dissolved. The UK is ruled by a party which is utterly rejected by Scotland. They have forced through legislation against which almost all Scottish MPs voted against. Anything our MPs propose is simply ignored. In no way can WM be considered a parliament of Scotland as part of a bipartit Union.

      The case for Indyref2 seems overwhelming.

    401. Tinto Chiel says:

      Sinky: thanks for that.

      Please remember, all, a former speech writer is just a former speech writer. It doesn’t mean he meant anything he said. They’re just hired hands who can always get a pay cheque elsewhere when it comes to hawking their arse.

      Lowest of the low IMHO.

    402. Big Jock says:

      Opinions are allowed people remember that. Blind faith is great. But sometimes you have to question leaders judgement. Remember we lost in 2014! So we didn’t get our tactics right then. I fully understand the endgame Nicola seeks. Try everything and conclude indi is only game in town.

      But suppose we do get Brexit lite in exchange for something else. Nicola will have played her cards too early by saying free trade would be ok for her. She will have compromised Scotland’s position.

      There is absolutely no need for her to offer olive branches to soft Brexitets. What is there to gain. The people we need on our side are the 62% who voted for full citizenship. The soft Brexiters are the signed up Yoons and isolationists.

      Sometimes playing games backfires. Salmond would not hesitate to call the referendum. I believe it’s win or bust now. Time to go for it and yes it might be our last shot but such is life.

    403. Lochside says:

      Please if people want to discuss what they did on their holidays go to o/t or start your own blog. Threads on here have been derailed before like this.

      The point made earlier about Craig Murray’s professional opinion, backed up by years as a diplomat and constitutional negotiator, is that he believes that if we wait ubtil Article 50 is actioned by WE, we are already too late to claim our ‘succeeding’ role in the EU when RUK finally pushes itself into smug oblivion. We can only do this if we are already an Independent nation. Several EU officials made this plain at the immediate aftermath of the vote…repeat: Scotland must be Independent at the point that RUK leaves the building, we must be a discrete (as in separate and distinct) national entity in order to ‘Remain’. Unless people grasp this we will be beguiled into being royally and truly fucked by Fanny May and her Tory pals with their Ruritarian fantasies about the ‘Great’in ‘Britain’ being re-imagined by RUK in the wide world that is apparently waiting to embrace them.

    404. Paula Rose says:

      Surely Lochside that means that the referendum or whatever method used has to be announced after Article 50 is enacted and the action if voted for enacted within two years.

    405. Grouse Beater says:

      Lochside quotes from Craig Murray: “Scotland must be Independent at the point that RUK leaves the building, we must be a discrete (as in separate and distinct) national entity in order to ‘Remain’.”

      Sound sense from Murray. Another reason the SNP should have asked him to be an official adviser if they couldn’t see him as an MP.

    406. Tackety Beets says:

      We are all aware of the amount of work we have ahead,to engage with the unconvinced etc etc

      Yesterday I met up with a pal of some 40 years who pretended to be a No voter , possibly to wind me up.

      The point is he is a smart cookie, always good to debate with and has always had an answer.
      During the conversation I mention the Deceit we know as the MCrone Report and he actually admitted he did NOT know anything about it.

      I fear we will need to start at the very beginning with many as they clearly are not as informed as we thought.

      There is much to do in readiness for Art 50 being triggered .

    407. Big Jock says:

      Lochside I agree. That’s why all this talk and wait and see stuff is dangerous. Let’s say that in November the SNP put through a bill for indi 2. Wm will do all in its power to delay it. Meantime the UK is negotiating Brexit next January. We might not actually have a vote until autumn 2017 as the council elections are May 17.

      Even if it’s yes we need 18 months to get out of the UK. The UK will be out of the Eu before Scotland declares independence.

      Wm governments for all their faults and failings are not tactically naive. They will play games with Scotland if we acquiesce to this.

      I repeat we need to do what we need to do. We need to do it swiftly.

    408. CameronB Brodie says:

      Big Jock
      I understand where you’re coming from but I think you’re torturing yourself unnecessarily. Not that I am suggesting you are wrong, simply pointing to your limited influence over the situation, which is bigger than any of use. Try and stop stressing as that will lock you up and we need all the able bodies for the coming battle. Try thinking about what you can do and try not to worry about what you can’t do.

      Anyway, I think you need to pop in to HQ for an upgrade, as your chip doesn’t appear to be working. 😉

      “If you are depressed you are living in the past.
      If you are anxious you are living in the future.
      If you are at peace you are living in the present.” – Lao Tzu

      “Once we accept our limits, we move beyond them.” – Albert Einstein

    409. Big Jock says:

      Yes I Robot will pop in as have malfunctioned. I am free!

    410. Paula Rose says:

      If like me you want to get a fuller picture, invite Craig Murray to your branch or Yes meetings – I did here’s a review –

      http://mrmalkysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/be-more-brechin.html

    411. Petra says:

      @ Lochside says at 3:00 pm ….. ”Nicola Sturgeon has announced an intention to form alliances with like minded UK politicians to somehow mitigate Brexit.”

      Lochside I don’t see it that way. I think we have to look beyond the smoke and mirrors. She’s been accused constantly over the last two years, by everyone and their granny, of harping on about calling another Referendum when that wasn’t the case at all. She’s been accused by the Mooth, Dippy Dug and Batman’s Joker of neglecting the duties she was elected to deal with such as the NHS; education etc through focusing on calling another Referendum when that wasn’t the case either.

      She wants Independence more than anyone. I’m sure we all know that. She’s spent the whole of her adult life with that one aim in mind and if nothing else she’s all there and round the corner as they would say. She knows where she’s at and what to ”announce” to whom and when. She can’t be seen to be using the Brexit situation for the sole aim of getting Independence and I doubt she is anyway. They go hand in hand as she’ll be deeply and genuinely concerned about the impact of Brexit on our country and economy.

      I totally agree with others on here who think Nicola Sturgeon is going through the motions of being seen to be ”exhausting all options to remain in the EU”, especially if she wants to win over staunch Scottish EU Remainers who voted No to Independence previously: Many of whom seem to have been duped already, by the propaganda machine, into thinking that the UK is going to get access to the single market. Aye right!

      She knows that Westminster wont be allowed access to the single market (it would sound the death knell for the EU) whilst refusing free movement of labour, however she’ll have to bide her time until this has been made public. When it is, co-inciding with having the Standing Council on Europe’s facts and figures to hand, she’ll make an announcement to the Scots. At that point in time the non-Indy ‘staunch Scottish EU’ supporters are going to have to make a choice.

      The Japanese Government has already come out (released document ‘Japan’s Message to the UK and EU) and stated that if the UK doesn’t comply with EU laws, such as free movement of labour they will relocate their companies with headquarters in the UK, such as Hitachi, Fujitsu and Nissan. This in turn will impact on 140,000 UK jobs. They’ve warned too about financial institutions being relocated as nearly half of their EU investment flows to the UK (London is the clearing center for Euro transactions).

      There’s also mention of the transfer of London EU based agencies being transferred to Europe such as the European Medicines Agency, which controls major international pharmaceutical companies based in the UK and of course other banks and financial institutions are talking about relocating too. Who knows? Maybe to an Independent Scotland?

      Along the way more and more countries will be giving Theresa May the b*ms rush. Obama has made it clear once again, at the G20, that EU deals will take priority over the UK.

      Anyway I’m just posting this in an attempt to cheer everyone up. We’re all absolutely frustrated with this delay. Totally scunnered by the constant bombardment of the propaganda machine and our extremely limited ability to combat the lies and manipulations, but I reckon we have to be patient, carry on with what we have been doing (converting individuals) and MORE than anything have faith in Nicola Sturgeon. We’ll get there. Be Independent by the end of 2018 / early 2019. So chin up everyone x

    412. CameronB Brodie says:

      Lochside quotes from Craig Murray: “Scotland must be Independent at the point that RUK leaves the building, we must be a discrete (as in separate and distinct) national entity in order to ‘Remain’.”

      This situation is a bit like Schrodinger’s cat torture experiment. IMHO. launching indyref2 before Article 50 is activated would be jumping the gun, where as waiting for the button to be pressed may be too late to protect Scotland’s 40 year old European club membership.

      What a pisser. Surly they can work out a pauchal that maintains my European citizenship and human rights? Bung them in an Escrow account until we get shot of the union. Or is that too simplistic?

    413. Capella says:

      @ Lochside – so what if Nicola announces an Indyre2 now, the date is set for May 2017.

      Then Westminster decides not to activate Brexit. Maybe because the EU grants a concession to participate in the single market because EU citizens may still live and work in UK (as Theresa May has hinted at in the G20). Parliament votes to accept that.

      What percentage of Scottish voters will vote for Independence under these circs?

    414. Chic McGregor says:

      Mr Tompkins is a familiar character in physics land.

      He is a character created by George Gamow to facilitate some qualitative understanding of modern physics for that sector of the general public who desire it.

      To help him understand the concepts he has been presented in, say, the special theory of relativity, at night he dreams of an alternative universe where the everyday constant values, like time or the speed of light, are radically different.

      However, unlike professor Tomkins, upon waking he realises the weirdly different universe those radically different constants created were merely a thought experiment to aid his understanding of things and in no way a reflection of everyday reality.

    415. Lochside says:

      Capella…I don’t see the EU ever giving ground on the single market… this is a core element of membership of the Union, otherwise why bother having the EU in the first place?Plus not activating Brexit is a recipe for civil war in England…and I kid you not.

      Petra….I genuinely pray that your analysis is correct.

    416. Paula Rose says:

      Petra’s position is basically the one I’m coming from.

    417. Chic McGregor says:

      I don’t know about civil war, but kicking Brexit into the long grass would I believe see the return of Farage as the (ultra) White Knight and I believe UKIP would become a very serious challenge to the Tory hegemony (Blue and Red) in England.

    418. Capella says:

      @ Lochside – the fundamental 4 freedoms are:

      freedom of movement of goods
      freedom of movement of workers
      freedom to provide services
      freedom of capital

      http://www.europeanpolicy.org/en/european-policies/single-market.html

      Theresa May has ruled out a points system for controlling immigration and has said that EU citizens should still have the right to work in UK.

      Given that they control all means of communication, why wouldn’t they be able to sell that as a “solution” to the English electorate. After all, they know diddley squat about the EU. They were all googling it after the vote to see what they had just voted to leave.

    419. McDuff says:

      The only way we will achieve independence is when a healthy majority vote for it. There is no sign of a significant shift in the polls at the moment and i really wonder what its going to take. If Brexit doesn`t` do it apart from all the other things that have happened over the past two years perhaps someone can tell me what will because i sure as hell don`t know.

    420. Petra says:

      This looks EXTREMELY interesting: The 90-minute debate is scheduled for tomorrow.

      ‘SNP MP Patrick Grady calls for debate on Claim of Right for Scotland.’

      UK MINISTERS are to face increased pressure to respect the historic right of Scots to decide how they are governed, amid moves toward a second independence referendum.

      SNP MP Patrick Grady is to lead a parliamentary debate on the Claim of Right for Scotland, which has roots in the 17th century and helped pave the way for devolution via an agreed set of principles in 1989.

      Following a constitutional convention, which the SNP withdrew from as it did not consider Scottish independence, the Claim of Right reaffirmed the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the government best suited to their needs.

      Grady said decisions were still being “foisted upon” Scotland by Westminster, adding that this has been highlighted by the UK seeking to withdraw from the EU.

      The SNP has just launched a major “listening exercise” around the issue of holding a second independence referendum.

      Areas of concern for the party also include changes in Parliament to ensure only English MPs vote on laws relating to England.

      Speaking ahead of his debate, Grady said: “What we would argue, as the SNP, is there is still a democratic deficit; we’re still having decisions we didn’t vote for foisted upon us.

      “The key principle of the Claim of Right is the sovereignty of the people of Scotland to choose the form of government best for themselves — the historical concept of popular sovereignty in Scotland.”

      The 90-minute debate is scheduled for tomorrow.

      http://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp-mp-patrick-grady-calls-for-debate-on-claim-of-right-for-scotland.22001

      ……………………………………………………………………………………………

      @ Paula Rose says at 9:45 pm …. ”Surely Lochside that means that the referendum or whatever method used has to be announced after Article 50 is enacted and the action if voted for enacted within two years.”

      That’s how I’ve ‘read it’ Paula Rose. We’ve got two years from the time that Maggie May triggers Article 50 to state our intentions and set a date for IndyRef2.

      @ Paula Rose says at 10:28 pm …. ”If like me you want to get a fuller picture, invite Craig Murray to your branch or Yes meetings – I did here’s a review –”

      http://mrmalkysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/be-more-brechin.html

      If you can’t do that there’s also loads of extremely enlightening Craig Murray youtube videos that are well worth watching.

      ………………………………………………………………………………………….

      I’d been reading through The National earlier and someone mentioned that the polls now show that we’re at 52% (can’t find it now Ggrr)! I’ll have another look tomorrow.

      Anyway I don’t know if that includes 16 / 17 year olds, the group that YouGov excluded latterly, no doubt in an attempt to manipulate the figures (as many are Yes voters).

      Whatever the case we’re starting on this journey at around / over 50%. Last time round it was approximately 30% and we pushed that up to 45% (at least). We’re getting there.

    421. Still Positive. says:

      I agree with Petra and others. We should know not to trust Westminster and especially the Tories. We have to wait for Art 50 button to be pressed because, I believe, there’s no going back then.

      Indy late 2018 or early 2019.

    422. Shy Unionist at 4.39

      Exactly. That was then and this is now. They changed their mind and changed their vote. It is called democracy.

    423. Still Positive. says:

      Should have said indyref2 mid-late June and escape within 18 months.

    424. Dr Jim says:

      I wont bore you with all the details and numbers but we were all talking about branding and food stuffs and the like and I was reading up on Sugar Beet coz that’s another one of those things plastered with the Union Flag in every supermarket

      In England this is a huge and important crop that farmers down south depend on, well it turns out the Sugar Beet crop is 50% funded to farmers by the EU….Once again, ya gotta laugh

      Hermesetas anyone?

    425. Chic McGregor says:

      McDuff

      I believe there has been a very significant shift, it is just that it is not that visible on a simple bean count.

      Remember, a significant proportion of pro indy voters were also anti EU. To an unknown extent, some of those would feel more strongly on the EU issue than on the indy issue.

      In those instances, logic would dictate that those strongly anti EU but pro indy voters, having just won a significant victory, would most likely be unwilling to now nullify that victory with another pro indy vote.

      Being a pessimist, I in fact feared that post Brexit referendum indy support would be bound to fall because of that.

      I am, however, very heartened by the fact that the total pro indy vote has held up.

      While there most probably has been a significant shift, in both directions, those soft NOers who want to remain switching and cancelling out the lost YESers, it is most gratifying that overall pro indy has not suffered as I feared.

      Also, as real Brexit looms and its consequences become more tangible, I do believe many anti EU/pro indy ‘defectors’ will return to the pro indy fold.

      At the moment we are in a kind of phony Brexit period where after the initial shock, there has been a recovery but a recovery based only on reprise and imagined avoidance of Brexit.

      When real Brexit knoicks on the door minds will be refocussed.

    426. Tam Jardine says:

      Lochside

      I feel your frustration. It strikes me that we are not party to the game of chess taking place between Scotland and the UK government and between the UK government and the EU.

      I am with you that they should be taking on the fight on the terms and with the arguments we deploy here.

      It strikes me that a huge effort is being expended trying to position the SNP as reluctant to go to a referendum. This would not be my tactic but I recognise it as a tactic and just because I would be all for storming the bastille right now does not mean it is the right tactic.

      Brother- I enjoyed your post at 3pm and I get it. At the same time I have some faith the leadership are playing (and winning a game). We become relevant once a referendum is called or an election is called or we storm parliament and declare UDI.

      Anyway- excellent posts – the SNP need to listen to them

    427. Orri says:

      I wouldn’t for one minute make any plans that relied on full Brexit taking two years to complete once A50 is finally triggered. It’s an upper limit that can be shortened if all parties agree.

    428. Nicola is making it very difficult indeed for Theresa May. That’s the game.

    429. Valerie says:

      May was cautious with Marr yesterday, and did not confirm she would refuse a second referendum, they can’t, and she knows it.

      Changed days for the PM, she was positioned at the back of the group fotie, at G20, I retweeted it on Twitter. Juncker was reported to have had an outburst of bad temper at May, when she tried to discuss trade, saying existing EU members cannot negotiate with other countries.

      Obama rubbed salt in the wound.

      Obama, Merkel and Hollande, went off on a meeting, where May was excluded.

      In short, the UK PM, was like a bad smell hanging around. EU cannot wait to boot out the UK. Thanks to our FM, they know we are a very different character, and SNP are still building on that now.

      After Brexit, an old saying was revived. Scotland’s independence is too big a job for the Scots alone, the English have to help.

      Don’t you think they are doing a fine job, thus far? I do.

      That is the broad strategy, get the Tories to do the heavy lifting. They remain arrogant and smug, the 3 Brexiteers today were back to how we are used to seeing them in Parliament.

      Mike Russell sounded like a terrier tonight. I think his job is to.come back and say Scotland is f””ked.

      @Lochside
      I have said consistently, there will be civil war down south if hard Brexit is not delivered. That is a simmering pot, needing very little heat. So that is another factor.

    430. yesindyref2 says:

      I think it may be enough for the EU to have formal talks if the Indy ref vote is a YES before Brexit, without actual Independence having been achieved. Ironically that may require the rUK’s consent as they would still be the member state, but I don’t see the UK witholding consent, there’s nothing to lose for them, and everything to gain from being able to throw that in “for nothing”.

      But that’s something presumably Sturgeon & Co will clarify.

    431. Smallaxe says:

      Lochside:I must apologise for my stupidity.I made a couple of
      stupid but innocent mistakes. I had no desire to spoil the thread,but I was under the mistaken impression that I was on
      O/T. I will endeavour not to be such a nuisance to you in the
      future.

      Peace Always

    432. Smallaxe says:

      Bob Mack says:
      5 September, 2016 at 8:47 pm
      @Smallaxe,

      Depths my friend depths. Never fails to amaze me the peple and experience on this site. Peace Bro.

      A little learning is a dangerous thing
      Drink deep,or taste not the pierian spring
      There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain
      And drinking deeply sober”s us again.

      Alexander Pope 1688-1744.

      Peace,Love and Amazed people 🙂

    433. Smallaxe says:

      maureen says:
      5 September, 2016 at 8:01 pm
      Smallaxe

      “I hope you continue to post your ravings/musings.”

      Peace,Love and Raving Musings

      🙂

    434. Smallaxe says:

      @ Rich ard MacKinnon:

      Tin Tin Tomkin’s is looking for his lap dog

      See “Snowy” MacKinnon.

      PEACE ALWAYS,ALL WAY”S

    435. The Isolator says:

      @Valerie

      That’s where I am,terrific summation.Lead them to water and let them drink the contaminated source.It’s not just the Tories doing the heavy lifting though…..Labour are right there providing extra leverage.Fun to watch that’s for sure.

    436. Smallaxe says:

      444-posts:

      4 Scotland
      4 People
      4 Independence

      Peace,Love and For’s

    437. scottieDog says:

      @petra
      Re the threats to uk from Japan. I know it’s all good political ammo and due to the tory lack of understanding of what the govt role in the sovereign economy should be it probably seems a grave threat.

      My question (and I voted remain btw) is, who is sovereign? The people of a country or a foreign business?

      I say this in the context of another indyref where the usual ‘business will pull out’ threat is roled out and our future is dictated by corporations.

      A entity like the uk or a sovereign indy scotland with its own currency could provide a job guarantee scheme in these situations.

      I know it’s tempting to jump on project fear bandwagon and warn of fire and brimstone from the markets but for me it’s far better to highlight the powers the govt does have (knowing full well they won’t use them)

      So my question to Mr Davis would be – ate you going to provide a job guarantee to those workers losing their jobs if a company relocates?
      Will it spend a fraction of our national debt increase since the govt came to power to help these people?

    438. annie says:

      If this was twitter, I’d be liking and re-tweeting this post. Well said.

    439. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning Nana:

      Coffee and Links for breakfast,

      “WOT” no bacon?

      Peace,Love and a European Breakfast

      X

    440. Smallaxe says:

      Macart

      peaceable and beautiful in its own way” and fixated with questions of governance more than nationhood. That’s something that can be built upon.

      Peace,Love and Nation Building:-)

    441. louis.b.argyll says:

      OH YE OF LITTLE FAITH, Steady! Me hearties. We are in a campaign, ongoing.
      We are in a battle over hearts and minds.

      Unfortunately, we must willingly (bravely) skirt disaster. The velvet touch is our only antidote, to the wall of fear filling people’s lives.
      Knee-jerk shifts during campaigns cause splinters in commonalities.
      Left and right can wait.

      The Independence movement is young at heart.

    442. Smallaxe says:

      louis.b.argyll says:
      The Independence movement is young at heart.

      Peace love and Young at Heart Ancient Alba

      🙂

    443. Dr Jim says:

      Scottis Media “Journalists” on the radio talking about the First Ministers obsession with Independence

      Has the First Minister mentioned Independence?, Well no but I’m sure it’s foremost in her mind

      And will she mention Independence today in her speech?, Well only a passing reference but it’s the main theme always on her mind

      Is there still too much talk of Independence instead of getting on with the day job?, Well opposition parties know that that’s the First Ministers main focus

      So what did the First Minister say about Independence then?
      Well she focussed on the attainment gap in schools but it’s always with a view to Independence really isn’t it

      And the bewildered old folk at home think to themselves “I wish she’d shut up aboot Independence”

    444. Smallaxe says:

      Mrs Smallaxe has her Birthday today,I leave this for She:

      I am but a star
      Adrift
      In your universe
      Floating
      Through a Galaxy
      Of wanting you
      Spinning
      In an orbit
      Of
      My need for you
      Freezing
      For your warmth
      So far away
      Twinkling silently
      Alone

      But ever closer
      I come
      Traveling
      At the speed of love
      Entering
      Your perfumed atmosphere
      Growing
      In your heat
      Plunging
      Slowly
      To your molten core
      A dying star
      Finding
      Joyous life

      Happy Birthday Sweetheart

      Billy the Rhymer 1969r

      Peace and Love Eternally

    445. Smallaxe says:

      Sorry All,thought I was still on O/T

      Please forgive

      Peace Always

    446. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe hope its a sunny day where you are. Looking good up here [so far]

    447. Robert Louis says:

      I have one message for the SNP leadership, remain means remain. It doesn’t mean ‘brexit lite’, or soft brexit’, or ‘access to the single market’, it means staying in the EU.

      I am aware that the SNP think that people such as myself (strong pro indy) will always vote for them, but they should not take my vote for granted. Independence will not happen unless the SNP start making the case, loudly and clearly. Keeping quiet and hoping the polls change just doesn’t wash.

      If the issue of the EU is fudged (as it now appears) by the SNP, they will lose my vote, and I will give up on indy altogether. I am incredibly angry at the degree of procrastination going on right now. There will never be a better opportunity for independence, and anybody in the SNP punting the notion that there will be, is talking utter p*sh.

      I know there are many on here who might disagree, but I have supported the SNP through thick and thin, and right now, all I hear is spin and procrastination. As regards both the EU and indy, it is time to, as the old saying goes, to put up or shut up.

      I will reserve final judgement, until the conference in October. I will be listening to speeches by the leadership very closely.

    448. Breeks says:

      I understand the chronology.

      Before we launch Indyref2, we first need Theresa May to trigger Article 50 so we are past the point of no return, but before Article 50 becomes the actual exit from Europe, we have at maximum, 2 years in which to get ourselves independent or else we get bundled out of Europe chained to the UK. There’s a lot of stuff to cram into a short timescale.

      It’s all very well hoping for the holding pen status inside the EU discussed just after Brexit, but while that might work between two consenting sovereign nations, it isn’t going to happen while the “jilted” third nation can squeal about adultery before the divorce is complete. I reckon that holding pen status might be reserved for Scotland only once we have a mandate for independence and have entered the irreversible process of ending the Union. If however our sovereign independence remains ambiguous or still debated, with the best will in the world, I don’t think Europe could hold on to us. We’d be out, and negotiating re-entry at best.

      Nevertheless, that’s the chronology. It’s a two year white knuckle ride down a bobsleigh track. It’s what happens before that I’m concerned about. What’s happening right now. The training. The planning. The preparation. The right diet. Are we going to be fit and ready for it? Or are we just going to spill our popcorn rolling off the couch on polling day?

      In my humble opinion, we must be as sure as we can be that the Indyref2 referendum is a foregone conclusion, because there simply won’t be time to squeeze in a swing in opinion polls and bounce through all YES / No arguments of 2014 at the canter. Even if, and I pray, when, we secure a YES majority, we have I would hope secured holding pen status in the EU while we negotiate the terms of our UK independence.

      I caution to advocate scare mechanisms, but in realty, we should have Scotland already losing sleep at night over the mere prospect of losing Europe. Accentuate the positives of Europe of course and by all means, but we cannot afford to have undecideds about Europe joining forces with undecideds about Indy. We need pro Indy core vote joining forces with pro European voters.

      We should be drumming it out loud and clear that there is no status quo option in tomorrow’s newspapers. There is a break in continuity ahead of us. There is no null option. You have Independence in Europe, or you have our reluctant Union turning its back on friends in Europe and jumping into the abyss. That’s it. Option A or Option B with nothing in between.

      If you are an Independentist and a European, there is only Independence.
      If you are a Unionist and a European, you much choose one or the other. Having both is not an option. You must compromise one to save the other.
      If you are a Unionist who wants to exit Europe too, then move to England, Wales or Northern Ireland, find your feet and be happy.

      Fair do’s, the SNP is possibly correct to soft sell the Political aspect of Independence, but “somebody” should right now be getting all worked up and shouty about the insanity of leaving Europe. The issue needs to be far more prominent so that there compelling momentum to stay in Europe long before Article 50 is triggered.

      The Scottish Brexit vote gave us a great platform and mandate to fret about leaving, and have a legitimate grievance about exiting Europe against our will. It has I fear been a mistake to imply the issue is negotiable and open to compromise. The immediate consequence of that strategy is that people, and momentum, are both placed on hold until the mooted compromise is defined. There isn’t a compromise.

      In Scotland, we didn’t have a “Remain” party because we had the SNP. That worked out very well for Scotland, but now that Indy and Brexit are joined at the hip, we need a Remain type lobby group to sell the same message YES did; that you didn’t need to be an SNP affiliate to vote YES.

      We need to give house room to those folks who want to stay in Europe but for whatever reason or personal prejudice find the SNP toxic and SNP policy unpalatable.

    449. Macart says:

      No child is born hating. Hatred, much like its ugly twin ‘fear’, is taught, it is learned. In the hands of the powerful, the greedy, the ambitious (see under political class/orthodoxy), both are tools to manipulate opinion. With the aid of ‘on side’ and none too ethical blanket media coverage it is fostered within a population, cultivated and deployed like a weapon to achieve a desired effect or a desired outcome. It is quite simply an effective means of directing your population toward desired outcomes.

      But what happens when it runs out of control?

      Welcome to Brexit Britain. A state where you daren’t be ‘the wrong sort’. Quite literally these days, a state divided by intolerance and hatred. This is the UK the state and media have created and they haven’t a clue how to fix the carnage they quite deliberately (if thoughtlessly) caused and retain the level of control they desire over what is the current ‘United’ Kingdom.

      Oh and if you’re wondering if you’re the ‘wrong sort’? Simply check out the daily editions of any mainstream media title. Watch any broadcast news channel, or listen in to some state meeja radio. You’ll soon find your demographic in there.

      Short list seems to run along the lines of: Poor (benefit scrounger). Disabled (drain on the NHS and still somehow a scrounger). Anything or anyone furren (cause they ain’t from around these parts). Nats, because you’re all evil for not supporting the most wonderful family of nations on earth. You’re also slippery, devious, twisted, hate the English (just because) and are hell bent on separating, sundering, tearing and basically any other destructive adjective, the political union which created a glorious empire.

      Oh and ‘Nats’ pretty much covers anyone who supports the idea that Scottish politicians, mandated by a Scottish populace, should have the powers and the remit to govern Scotland. Y’know supports independence and the idea of fully empowered, democratic statehood.

      So, yeah. We are the wrong sort. Who knew? And yes, people have been taught to hate us. They are taught on a daily basis.

      The UK has been thoughtlessly steered toward a very dark path and its moved beyond walking down it. An independent Scotland need have and should have, no part of that in my opinion.

      Hatred of the other and isolation does not a bright shiny future make.

    450. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      re: the ‘business will pull out’ threat being rolled out.

      The Scottish Government should call these businesses bluff and tell them in no uncertain terms that they can go if they wish.

      This should be accompanied with the caveat that:

      When said business wants to come back to take advantage of any markets, tax breaks/incentives etc. that an Independent Scotland has negotiated or implemented they will have to pay a penalty/uplift to the Scottish Exchequer for attempting to undermine democracy/threatening the Scottish Electorate before they are allowed to trade here again.

      It would also be without question that they would have to be registered in Scotland for tax purposes and pay the appropriate level of tax on 100% of revenues raised in Scotland to the Scottish Exchequer.

    451. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      scottieDog @ 8:02am

      re: the ‘business will pull out’ threat being rolled out.

      The Scottish Government should call these businesses bluff and tell them in no uncertain terms that they can go if they wish.

      This should be accompanied with the caveat that:

      When said business wants to come back to take advantage of any markets, tax breaks/incentives etc. that an Independent Scotland has negotiated or implemented they will have to pay a penalty/uplift to the Scottish Exchequer for attempting to undermine democracy/threatening the Scottish Electorate before they are allowed to trade here again.

      It would also be without question that they would have to be registered in Scotland for tax purposes and pay the appropriate level of tax on 100% of revenues raised in Scotland to the Scottish Exchequer.

    452. Petra says:

      As mentioned on an earlier post Patrick Grady SNP MP will be leading a 90 minute parliamentary debate on the Claim of Right for Scotland today in Westminster Hall Debating Chamber.

      What time? No idea. Maybe someone could ascertain the time, better still put up a link, so that we can see what’s going on with this? See if Patrick Grady is treated with a modicum of respect.

      I’ve been having a look at the background of The Claim of Right 1989 that relates directly to the Claim of Right Act 1689. Probably a subject that Robert (Peffers) has covered over and over again.

      Anyway for those who haven’t been listening closely to Robert or need to clarify to some extent, like me, I’ve posted a couple of links.

      In particular PLEASE TAKE NOTE of the following extract taken from the Wings article:

      ”Michael Forsyth clearly had read Lord Cooper’s judgement, and argued that the potential Scottish Parliament could pass a bill for independence and there would be nothing Westminster could do to stop it.”

      ………………………………………………..

      Claim of Right 1989

      A Claim of Right for Scotland was a document crafted by the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly in 1988, declaring the sovereignty of the Scottish people. It was signed by all then-serving Labour and Liberal Democrat MPs, with the exception of Tam Dalyell (Labour), a strident opponent of devolution. The list of signatories included several MPs who would later attain high office, including future prime minister Gordon Brown, future chancellor Alistair Darling, and future leaders of the Liberal Democrats Charlie Kennedy and Menzies Campbell.

      The Claim of Right was signed at the General Assembly Hall, on the Mound in Edinburgh – on 30 March 1989 by 58 of Scotland’s 72 Members of Parliament, 7 of Scotland’s 8 MEPs, 59 out of 65 Scottish regional, district and island councils, and numerous political parties, churches and other civic organisations, e.g., trade unions. The document has never had any legal force, and remains a statement of popular opinion.

      The Claim was part of a process which led to devolution of powers from the Parliament of the United Kingdom to a new Scottish Parliament in 1999.[2] Its title was a reference to the Claim of Right Act 1689, an Act of the Parliament of Scotland which limited the power of the Scottish monarch (at the time, William and Mary) in much the same manner as the English Bill of Rights passed the same year.

      In October 2011 the Scottish Government announced that the Claim of Right will be brought before the Scottish Parliament to allow MSPs to re-endorse the claims of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_Right_1989

      ……………………………………..

      The Claim of Right 1989

      We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.

      We further declare and pledge that our actions and deliberations shall be directed to the following ends:

      To agree a scheme for an Assembly or Parliament for Scotland;

      To mobilise Scottish opinion and ensure the approval of the Scottish people for that scheme;

      To assert the right of the Scottish people to secure implementation of that scheme.

      http://scotreferendum.com/2012/01/the-claim-of-right/

      ………………………………………………

      “A Claim of Right for Scotland”

      Hansard 21 December 1988 vol 144 cc428-31

      http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1988/dec/21/a-claim-of-right-for-scotland

      …………………………………………….

      And from Wings. Some extracts.

      ….. ”Then there was Lord Cooper’s much-cited judgement in McCormack vs the Lord Advocate (1953) where he stated that “the principle of unlimited sovereignty of parliament is a distinctly English principle and has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law”. Equal importance must also be given to the Lord Advocate’s own concession, “admitting the Parliament of Great Britain could not alter or repeal fundamental and essential conditions of the Acts of Union.” …….

      Lord Cooper’s core finding was that the Acts of Union preserved the rights of the Scottish people as being sovereign, and that that status is an essential part of the Acts which cannot be changed, for all time. The 1998 Scotland Act had to tread a very difficult line between trying to hold onto as much power and control at Westminster as possible, while not raising the spectre of any attempt to usurp that constitutional reality, with all the potential impact this could have on Westminster’s grip on Scotland.

      Michael Forsyth clearly had read Lord Cooper’s judgement, and argued that the potential Scottish Parliament could pass a bill for independence and there would be nothing Westminster could do to stop it.

      Forsyth understood that in Scottish constitutional law and practice the Scottish Parliament would be empowered by the sovereign Scottish people, in a way Westminster never legitimately was……

      Much oil was burned in the UK media about the impending embarrassment for Scotland and the humbling of its pretendy parliament. Yet something strange happened – the UK Supreme Court found for the Scottish Parliament. Hidden away in their judgement was the statement that it had no power to set aside any bill, statute or act of the Parliament of Scotland where that bill expressed the clear will of the (sovereign) people of Scotland ……

      To those who would argue the people of Scotland being sovereign is a myth, that we have no real power and that our sovereignty is merely a curiosity of ancient history, the few examples in this essay should give pause for thought. The 700-year-old history of the people of Scotland’s sovereignty is alive and well and continues to protect our fundamental rights to this day.”

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-sovereignty-for-dummies/

    453. Grouse Beater says:

      Petra: “Michael Forsyth read Lord Cooper’s judgement, and argued that the potential Scottish Parliament could pass a bill for independence and there would be nothing Westminster could do to stop it.”

      That might account for having a voting system foisted on us that pretty well ensures no party gets a majority, and freeloaders and carpetbaggers get an open door.

    454. Smallaxe says:

      Nana:

      Always sunny here!

      Peace,Love and Sunshine

    455. G4jeepers says:

      Interesting article on Chile there nana, especially the article about them creating beer from condensed fog!
      Could really use one of those this fine dry day.

    456. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Xaracen 7.21 5/09
      Let me try again, and explain what I think is going to happen in the next few years.
      The unionists’ tactics since 2014 has been to goad the SNP about a second referendum. They think that the SNP and their ‘mission’ of an independent Scotland through a second referendum is an opportunity to put the SNP under a bit of pressure. They think rightly so, that although the SNP are the major force in Scottish politics they have a problem in that their massive support is impatient for another ref. but the party know it cannot risk a second defeat. So up until the UK/EU ref the only ones talking of a second ref. were the unionists in Scotland.
      The UK/EU referendum result was exactly what the SNP prayed for but it seems that the fallout from Scotland voting Remain yet England voting Leave as the nationalists had hoped for has not materialised. The Scottish unionists parties look as if they are going to stick with the British union rather than back a movement to keep Scotland in the European union. This tactic might have been anticipated from Scottish Tories but it appears Labour and Lib Dems are falling in behind.
      Therefore I think the Scottish unionists parties have decided on taking a gamble to ‘go along’ with Brexit.
      Another factor in their favour is the fragility of the EU.
      If the EU continues to show signs of weakness in parallel with an electorate tired of constant referendum talk the approach Scottish unionists will take toward the SNPs independence ‘conversation’ is to gamble again, pick up on the public lack of interest and not acknowledge the debate, body swerve it. Their cries of ‘get on with the day job’ will be deafening. That tactic is high risk but if they were to run with it and the nationalists were to go ahead and hold a referendum, what would the turnout be? 35-40%. Any result even 90% Yes on that kind of turnout will be seen as a pointless, even self indulgent exercise and the unionist factions not just the unionist political parties will treat it with contempt.
      Sturgeon knows this, obviously there are those on this site that cannot or will not accept it.

    457. Shy unionist says:

      “Proud Cybernat says:

      5 September, 2016 at 4:54 pm
      You’re too funny. No, really. Now fuck off.”

      Thanks for living up to your stereotype.

    458. Not Convinced says:

      Onwards says :
      They could do that, but if there was a majority vote for a second referendum in the Scottish parliament, then it would look anti-democratic.

      Well I did say I thought it wasn’t a good idea from a political POV! 😀 I merely said that it was possible from a legalistic POV. It’s basically the approach that Spain has taken with Catalan, and we can see there that it’s completely failed to deal with the situation.

    459. K1 says:

      Seriously 30/40% turnout because the near 50% support would be battered down by the usual pish that we have been battered with for the past few years…and that would work next time round more effectively?

      ‘obviously there are those on this site that cannot or will not accept it.’

      Yes we simply cannot accept such patently ill thought through analysis and consider the writer of such drivel seriously.

      (jeez that was like reading a regurgitation of what the mail/express ‘say’ is going on…tiresome rinse and repeat…)

    460. Breeks says:

      @ Petra 9:35

      Watched some of it. Shocking low turnout and farcical debate about the one issue central to Independence and sovereignty.

      This debate should have been packed to the rafters, and trumpeting the irreconcileable difference between a civic popular sovereignty we have in Scotland, and the divine top-down sovereignty which Westminster’s presumes to hold over us.

      What an absolute joke. Truly pathetic.

      I would have asked that favourite question of mine; in an Independent Scotland, where will Scotland’s sovereignty draw its power? Popular sovereignty defined in the Declaration of Arbroath which decrees we are sovereign citizens? Or from God, through our monarch, into parliament and meted out to us “subjects” to be ruled as though we were merely English.

      This is not the same issue as democracy. Democracy merely steers the direction which sovereign power moves. Sovereignty is absolute… Or should be.

      I honestly don’t know what the SNP in Holyrood is playing at. It won’t embrace the notion of the popular sovereignty enshrined in Scots law, but yet it will lie prostrate and helpless before the fudged sovereignty of Westminster’s dictat that broadcasting is a reserved matter.

      Heaven help us. I meant it literally. If we have forfeited our definition of sovereignty in lieu of Westminster’s, then what are we doing if not kneeling before God like dutiful subjects? Someone pass me a sick bucket.

    461. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I don’t usually stick in a post at the twilight of a page but it’s taken me days to get to the point where I’m up to date with THIS page (never mind the three newer pages!).

      Onnyhoo, I just have to type that, for the moment, I trust the SNP to be planning their tactics and strategy to cover the next couple of years – that is, if they haven’t mapped out a number of scenarios already, like the plan we saw put into action immediately following the ‘Leave’ vote; the meetings with Juncker and so on.

      At times like these, where we see frustration at the apparent lack of conviction regarding independence (as displayed in some of the comments on this page), I recall this page that I read, and bookmarked, some time ago.

      From April 2015, it’s worth a read… A quote from it:-

      “Who actually exercises control of the ‘considered will of the people of Scotland’ in the UK Parliament, Lord Cooper suggested, was purely theoretical and unlikely to be tested within the UK wide party system then in place (1953) across the UK, as any Scottish representation was beholden to their main UK party’s manifesto.”

      http://tarffadvertiser.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/the-lady-with-gioconda-smile.html

    462. Hamish100 says:

      http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-10-reasons-for-yes-and-no-1-3542968

      Item 8– EU we would have to negotiate our way in said the No’s. Being out of the EU is a bad thing.

      All the nonsense spouted by Darling, Cameron, Brown, Davidson, Rennie that by voting NO = Scotland in Europe are proven to be lies.



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