Quoted for truth #27
Posted on
August 11, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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Wings Over ScotlandA tall tale
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True dat.
What Orwell says.
Max says > Spot on
Either we get journalists to confirm intervention, strong arming editorial decisions via some anonymous investigations or undertake a seperate poll or article.
Again this is only the start of this and it will get much, much worse. (Surely we all know how hard this will get ‘McCarthy witch hunts will follow’ So we have to get in their first.
The media still have the reigns but we still have the streets; and marches / protests / demonstrations are where its at for coverage – get the kids out there. They cant ignore the public forever. We should all support the marhces against the BBC far more. Can you imagine how much coverage ‘Mass march against BBC in Scotland’ would get around the world …. the TRUSTED BBC.
It likley wouldn’t be covered hear but it would get pivked up by world press.
We cant play by their rules its their baw .. we need a new unexpected front.
Doesn’t need to be SNP or YES can be averyone else – thats still alot of potential
Trouble is the people wont know haw bad it is if they are not reading or hearing about it ANYWHERE. Time for a wake up call !
“Sinking ships sling dinghies”.
Word to the Orwell.
70 years and nothing changes.
Can anyone confirm if the WoS poll is the only independence poll not have received ANY MSM coverage (apart from the Mail on Sunday sneery snippet) since, say, the start of 2012?
The media still have the reigns
No they haven’t. They have the reins. The things you use to steer a horse are R-E-I-N-S. Sorry, I keep seeing this and it’s driving me utterly bonkers.
The panelbase poll isn’t a genuine poll. It is not properley weighted and the participants are self selecting and receive incentives to take part. So it is almost worthless.
Sorry Morag : English is my second language, won’t happen again.
But appears you missed a their instead of there though in my post; so marks off
Morag, if you are going to let all the poor speling an bad grammar get youse down then your infur a sad time, theyr all over the plaice so take a deep breathe and calum down. Oh aye, try nought two get to bothured. Smiley thing wee worried face thing
The number of times I’ve witnessed Reporting Scotland giving airtime to NIMBY wind farm protest groups that consist of 18 people and a couple of pet dugs and yet this is not considered news. Or they’ll happily report verbatim anything that Tory business lobby groups like ‘Reform Scotland’ come up with and even describe them as ‘independent think-tanks’.
Disgraceful.
Oh come on, if we can’t be spelling Nazis on a site run by a spelling Nazi, where can we indulge? Free pass to non-native speakers, but a lot of people are doing it. Which is probably why non-native speakers pick it up in the first place.
Think “free rein”, which is what you give a horse when you allow it to choose the speed and direction of travel. If has nothing to do with the monarchy.
The number of times I’ve witnessed Reporting Scotland giving airtime to NIMBY wind farm protest groups that consist of 18 people and a couple of pet dugs and yet this is not considered news.
Good point, indeed. I think the most telling point was made by the person who pointed out that these same journalists are quick to praise the “new media” for its role in events such as the Arab Spring, but when we do it we’re a bunch of stroppy cynernats only fit to be ignored.
“It” has nothing to do with the monarchy, surely?? 😉
Indeed. Bang to rights. But if I thought the “reign” for “rein” was a mere typo the poster hadn’t noticed, I wouldn’t be mentioning it. It’s been happening repeatedly, in multiple posts, and I don’t think I’ve seen one poster get it right.
So, if we’re clear about “bated breath” now, I thought we could move on to “free rein”.
Newspaper sales in Scotland between July last year and last month and reveal the following:
Daily Mirror – 6.8 per cent drop = from 21,246 on average during July last year, to 19,803 last month;
Daily Record – 9.4 per drop = from 247,041 on average during July last year, to 223,762 last month;
Daily Star of Scotland – 16.3 per cent drop = 59,545 to 49,792;
The Scottish Sun – 12.3 cent drop = 297,123 to 260,528;
Scottish Daily Express – five per cent drop = 57,681 to 54,769;
Scottish Daily Mail – 7.6 per cent drop = 103,927 to 96,038;
Daily Telegraph – 3.6 per cent drop = 19,747 to 19,032;
Financial Times – 10.4 per cent drop = 2,761 to 2,475;
The Guardian – 9.6 per cent drop = 11,418 to 10,323;
i – 10.1 per cent up = 17,039 to 18,765;
Independent – 16.4 per cent drop = 3,595 to 3,005;
The Times – 0.6 per cent up = 18,829 to 18,938.
Meanwhile, the Sunday titles’ sales figures in Scotland were as follows:
Daily Star of Scotland – Sunday – 27.3 per cent down = 38,979 to 28,344;
The Scottish Sun – Sunday – 10.9 per cent down = 216,093 to 192,454;
Sunday Mail – ten per cent down = 282,073 to 253,832;
Sunday Mirror – 5.8 per cent down = 21,972 to 20,695;
The People – 12.9 per cent down = 11,820 to 10,290;
Scottish Sunday Express – four per cent down = 34,203 to 32,822;
The Sunday Post – 12.1 per cent drop = 185,884 to 163,301;
Scottish Mail on Sunday – 4.4 per cent down = 89,810 to 85,872;
Independent on Sunday – 12.4 per cent down = 6,105 to 5,350;
The Observer – 9.7 per cent down = 15,291 to 13,798;
Sunday Telegraph – 4.5 cent down = 17,204 to 16,424; and
Sunday Times – 9.4 per cent down = 49,541 to 44,877.
That’s all very well, but the Yes Scotland co-ordinator for Tweeddale told us at a meeting that the reason for all the “Salmond accused” and the negative spin was that the editors believed they sold more papers when they did that. Presumably the editors have access to some figures to back up that belief.
I’m not clear that we have evidence that the decline in sales is at all related to the negative spin, or that sales would pick up if they started reporting positive stories. It may be that their readership demographic genuinely prefers negative stories, but is dying off, or something like that.
The best way to deal with MSM behaving badly is to keep the pressure on. This new front opeing has given BT and the MSM a whole lot of grief. They can’t ignore us forever.
How about another WoS poll in October, after the white paper?
How much would it cost to take out some adverts in these papers showing some of the poll data? (although thats kinda like feeding the beast coz we would be paying them /:
Now that the Scottish MSM have thoroughly soiled themselves publicly, could we please move on to academia and see how they respond?
Pretty much every university and college in this country has a Media Studies Dept -anyone know the most effective way of reaching them in such a way that they all know that their peers have received the same information simultaneously?
It’s not just the media. Yesterday I went along to a Yes / Radical independence stall in Easterhouse and we were kicked out, initially on the grounds that we only had “perrmission” to be there if both sides were there. Not the first time that’s happened to Yes people at events. Now short of allocating someone to hand out BT leaflets (which would be screeched at as “acting as a front for BT” or some shit) we can’t force the other side to engage and turn out. It’s in their interests not to; they want to stifle debtate. Besides which, they patently were there, in the shape of the hard faced people shouting about getting us removed.
Then today we hear the head of the Edinburgh International festival has taken the decision next years festival will be “politically neutral” by banning anything to do with the referendum and focussing on the commemoration of WWI. Lovely.
But, you know what? Fuck ’em. I was also out in Glsgow yesterday and what strikes me is that you can feel the change, the political tension in the air, the energy. It’s all around you in Scotland right now. Even though people might not be debating the referendum endlessly (thank God really) radical change is in the air. And an awful lot of it is unspoken. An lot of everything in Glasgow is unspoken. And what is spoken is frequently mince. Ask someone from Glasgow a question and sometimes they’ll tell you what they think you want to hear; other times they’ll tell you the oppposite of what they think you want to hear; or they might answer sarcastically (aye, right). One thing’s sure, you won’t always know what they think even if they answer.
But one thing pretty much everyone here hates is being talked down to and told what to do, especially by outsiders. The political editors of national newspapers and the head of the Edinburgh Festival won’t have the first clue about all this. Let them carry on. I have a definite sense people are fed up with it and if the backlash takes smug political editors by complete surprise next year, well good.
By the way, it’s an interesting thing to remind yourself once in a while of the articles that were being written a year ago, or two years ago to and take stock of just how far things have moved already in that time. Remember when political editors were filling acres of space with whether Holyrood could hold a referendum at all? Suggesting the UK hold it so “the nationalists” couldn’t control the question, timing etc? Already it reads as so arrogantly ill-informed it’s funny, and its writers sound like voices from a long-forgotten past. Sadly those same writers are still there, pedalling rubbish. After a Yes vote, I imagine we could look back on what they’re writing now in that same way – ill-informed, arrogant, nonsense.
I would have thought that a number of potential headlines that the WoS poll results generated would have bumped up weekend newspaper sales figures nicely.
No wonder they are losing money!
@cath-
Hear, hear.
Any pictures of what happened at Easterhouse?
Basically, if they could have found any way – any way at all – in which to spin the poll in an anti-independence way, they’d have covered it. They couldn’t.
Normally my comments in the Northbriton are sent for aproval, but just now is gone directly to “Name withheld”.
My crime: included a link to the Panelbase tables.
I’m feeling so proud of myself.
PS: SHOCKING UTURN! IT’S BEEN APPROVED!
Deaths at the Scotsman Hotel. Scottish journos see the funny side.
Ruaridh Nicoll @Ruaridhnicoll 1 Aug
Blimey @KennyFarq. Did they discover one of Wullie’s old jumpers…? http://t.co/c5v9eKe71R
Kenny Farquharson@KennyFarq 1h
@Ruaridhnicoll Quite possibly. Or one of my old intros.
https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/366519295439675393
@Morag …
“reason for all the “Salmond accused” and the negative spin was that the editors believed they sold more papers when they did that.”
That’s the standard ‘official’ response from editors when he/she doesn’t want to expose their own political stance or prejudices. It’s to maintain the illusion that they are impartial and just playing to the market.
Morag
Maybe this would help with your quest for better grammar ..!
The reign of rain in Spain, was reined in by the sun.
I’m a major fan of Orwell but just as an extra piece of information, he wasn’t too hot on the Scottish Independence question…
http://michaelgreenwell.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/orwell-was-wrong-just-occasionally/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23655605
UK wages decline among worst in Europe
#Bettertogether
@Cath
And if my memory serves me correctly
1997 “Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead.”
2003 “The SNP will never govern Scotland.”
2007 “The SNP minority government will fail in six months.”
2011 “The SNP majority government is a failure of devolution.”
2012 “The SNP want Devo Max, not Independence.”
2013 “The SNP will never deliver Independence for Scotland.”
2014 ……
Seems like Scotland just can’t say No?
People Power – Two Crowdfunding Successes. One well received by a media who shunned its subject while he was alive and the other totally ignored by the media.
anyone know the most effective way of reaching them in such a way that they all know that their peers have received the same information simultaneously?
Email, granddad. 🙂
@Jiggsbro-
‘Email, granddad’
I asked for that!
The story now isn’t the specific poll findings, but the fact that the ‘serious’ Sunday papers and BBC decided to rubber-ear the whole thing.
Now that we can approach academics without fear of jeopardising their precious political impartiality, it’s impossible for them to also ignore MSM treatment of the PB/WoS poll without exposing themselves as similarly averse to unorthodox truths.
I would do it, but I’m a nobody – if it comes from WoS, supported (?) by other blogs, it’s a hard one for them to ignore.
The pro-Indy blogs should seize this chance, show some solidarity, and squeeze acknowledgement of this poll from every institution and/or individual who claims to be concerned about Scotland’s future. To dismiss the findings because ‘the MSM didn’t cover it’ simply won’t wash.
I’d suggest the Glasgow Media Unit as the first port of call. (David Miller, GMU/Spinwatch is, by curious coincidence, currently working at the University of Bath.)
Solidarity between pro-indy blogs? You must be joking, Ian!
@Morag
That’s all very well, but the Yes Scotland co-ordinator for Tweeddale told us at a meeting that the reason for all the “Salmond accused” and the negative spin was that the editors believed they sold more papers when they did that. Presumably the editors have access to some figures to back up that belief.
I’m not clear that we have evidence that the decline in sales is at all related to the negative spin, or that sales would pick up if they started reporting positive stories. It may be that their readership demographic genuinely prefers negative stories, but is dying off, or something like that.
I think the Yes representative was being diplomatic in that remark about negative stories about independence. The truth is the MSM in Scotland have always been hostile to independence and the SNP. The leaders of the Yes campaign will no doubt say one thing in public and another in private. They will be well aware of the real situation.
Morag
@DD-
I know, I know. That carry-on yesterday was just sickening. Some people really need to get over themselves and have a long hard think about the damage they’re causing. I suppose it’s a corollary of what the Orwell quote’s about – intellectual cowardice is one thing, and self-censorship is another, but vindictive snideness is something else again, and the best cure for it is to keep one’s gub firmly shut.
Scotland’s Shame – The Scottish Media
One of the reasons I am no longer in a Political Party is I cannot stand all this walking on egg shells that you have to do in order to not give the opposition an excuse to attack.
Suffice to say post independence I would not be in any way conciliatory to these journos, broadcasters and London apologists and lackeys.
Words like lamp posts ,tar and feathers springs to mind.
I just hope when the last helicopter leaves the Bitter Together HQ in Glasgow they leave none behind.
I see the site has a link to Ian S Smart, and was just having a look. His latest blog was on 9th August, so presumably he didn’t get a chance to look through the results.
(There is a very clear assumption in what he writes that the voters who vote for Labour, belong to that Party, and he can commit them to whatever Labour decides to do.)
So the info that is of particular interest, is that showing people are not simply go back to voting as thy did, if there is a No vote.
(Up to and including the 2010 Election I have supported Labour, but I won’t be again, at any level. They might still have the ‘hard faced people shouting’, that Morag mentioned, but they have no arguments now to persuade me.)
On the bedroom tax he said the SG already had”‘ the power to completely compensate for the Bedroom Tax in Scotland”,a nd a huge chasm opened in his argument. That statement along with saying, that a No vote would simple mean existing powers would continue and those in the Calman report would come into effect.
The Tories have admitted that the Bedroom tax was not about fairness, just a way to save money. So it was a Westminster Tax, not to be reversed, that would would just be paid for by re-allocating funds within Scotland.
There is nothing in the existing Devolved powers or the Calman report that give us any influence over the taxes or changes Westminster make, we can only suck it up, and cut budgets to deal with them.
That seems to have missed the guy completely; his choice for Scotland is tough luck.
I mention all this because some have said Ian Smart is a top Labour strategist. So, never mind Michael Kelly, this calm apparently reasoned arguments, he puts forward are orders of magnitude worse. He would be informing the direction of Labour in Scotland.
There was a repeat of the stuff about a Tory Government being preferable to an Independent Scotland. Also their could be a Lab/LibDem coalition to save Britain, but he hadn’t seen the poll I guess.
@Midgehunter & Morag 2.24
Try ‘Rayne’ for ‘Spain’?
We could be getting this vastly out of perspective. Totting up the allmedia circulations and 56000 for the daily herald and scotsman gives 833000 papers per day. Given that some people, libraries etc take more than one paper and the adult 16 and above population of Scotland Census 2011 was 4379072 thats only 19% read the papers. Add that to the Wings poll numbers for the effect of the media on how people are affected by the content and you have to be wondering if we are not just bashing our gums over less than 10%
@Cath
“Then today we hear the head of the Edinburgh International festival has taken the decision next years festival will be “politically neutral” by banning anything to do with the referendum and focussing on the commemoration of WWI. Lovely.
Is this correct? I cannot begin to express how angry this makes me.
Incidentally, I attended five shows yesterday, mostly comedy. They all mentioned the Referendum to varying degrees.
@SCED300,
I mention all this because some have said Ian Smart is a top Labour strategist….
Would that be the same Labour strategist that does not believe that Alex Salmond is going to have a Referendum as he is scared of the result? He has claimed many other completely bonkers things as well mind……..
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/10/scotland-independence-referendum-alex-salmond?commentpage=1
interesting article in the Guardian
“I’d suggest the Glasgow Media Unit as the first port of call. (David Miller, GMU/Spinwatch is, by curious coincidence, currently working at the University of Bath.)”
I contacted Greg Philo by email many months ago regarding this issue (media bias in the Scottish media – related it to an article in Spinwatch & the excellent GMU book on Israel/BBC reporting – I was roundly blanked.
I suspect, ironically, that the self-censorship GMU report on with acuity in the media, may not extend to Scottish self-determination and perhaps that there may be self censorship ongoing at GMU regarding this very issue.
May be worth another try I guess…
I imagine the only person thinking Ian Smart is a top labour strategist is Ian Smart.
@Handclapping
“We could be getting this vastly out of perspective.”
No we are not. I am meeting dozens of ‘no’ voters at the moment, whose rationale for their vote comes straight out of the media they watch / read.
I went to a show last night (Scottish Traditional Music) full of people who ‘Love Scotland’ and in fact very scathing of the UK. Guess what many are voting? No!
Why? Because they don’t believe we can do it!
These are people who want independence, but don’t believe its possible due to the mainstream media.
“They don’t like it up em sir!”
The Great British ‘Stifle-mobile’ has engaged 2nd gear.
Once the people’s campaign kicks into top gear it will be unstoppable. For No Scotland & their MSM servants it will be like trying to pin their propaganda custard to the ceiling!
The people will vote Yes next year. It’s beyond a shadow of a doubt!
I imagine the following conversation at a few newspapers:
Reporter: “Boss, what about this poll that’s been commissioned by a Nat website?”
Editor: “Nat website? SNP official, like?”
R: “No, not linked to the SNP. Just a bunch of individuals. Seem to be regarded as a bit extreme, even by their own side.”
E: “Who’s this Campbell bloke running it?”
R: “He’s a freelance computer games journalist.”
E: “Freelance?”
R:” Yes, years ago he was sacked by his magazine – something to do with disrespecting war dead – and he’s sort of bobbed around ever since.”
E: “Why “Reverend”? “Reverend” of what?”
R: “He refuses to say.”
E: “Right, I think we’ve got better things to do than cover a fake “Reverend” and a website which even the SNP refuses to get involved with. Why don’t you see if you can get more colour on the story about Joan McAlpine’s affair with that other vile cybernat.”
This may be a suitable quote for the Reverend Stuart Campbell: A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
If the Scottish media won’t report on WoS or the Panelbase poll it is time to spread the news to “foreign” news outlets.
“The panelbase poll isn’t a genuine poll. It is not properley weighted and the participants are self selecting and receive incentives to take part.”
That’s quite impressively wrong on every single count. Well done.
https://www.panelbase.net/about.aspx
says
“panelbase.net is an online research panel which rewards members for participating in market research surveys. We are one of the fastest growing research communities on the internet and feature in the top 10 ranked online survey panels on http://www.surveypolice.com….
Rewards
For every survey you complete you will be rewarded, usually between £0.25 and £10 (depending on survey duration and complexity), which we will add directly into your panelbase.net account. Once your reward balance has reached the redemption threshold of £10 you can withdraw your rewards. Payment methods include BACS (straight into your bank), high-street vouchers, or you can donate your rewards to charity.”
Fair enough. Wrong on three out of four. (And other pollsters offer rewards/incentives too, so presumably none of them are valid either.)
“Yes, years ago he was sacked by his magazine”
I’ve never been sacked by anyone in my life.
I love the idea that being an “official SNP” site would have enhanced the media’s opinion of us.
check this out, quite funny..
“Is this correct? I cannot begin to express how angry this makes me.”
Yes. It was Scotland on Sunday’s main story this morning.
http://archive.is/0Tzrh
@ currywurst,
That post is a new low, even for you.
If you insist on getting personal, then at very least you should do so using your own name.
Otherwise some people in here may start to look at your nasty smears, as the work of those typically put out by certain New Labour Bloggers.
“We could be getting this vastly out of perspective. Totting up the allmedia circulations and 56000 for the daily herald and scotsman gives 833000 papers per day. Given that some people, libraries etc take more than one paper and the adult 16 and above population of Scotland Census 2011 was 4379072 thats only 19% read the papers. Add that to the Wings poll numbers for the effect of the media on how people are affected by the content and you have to be wondering if we are not just bashing our gums over less than 10%”
The issue isn’t the effect. Having it covered in SoS, say, would have reached a pretty small number of people, most of them hostile. It would have made little difference to anything. The issue is the principle. There is no conceivable journalistic reason for refusing to cover this poll, and a dozen good reasons to. The only possible explanation is that it’s been deliberately suppressed for political reasons. Fine. All doubt is gone. We all know where we stand.
There will be no more live links to Scottish newspapers here. Everything will be done via archive.is, including where that means circumventing paywalls. No more ad clicks. No more traffic. Now everybody knows what side everyone’s on. So be it.
o/t but just read this linked from the Rev’s Twitter feed, good article btw – ” Hassan, editor of The Modern SNP: From Protest to Power, describes the SNP as “in a way, a profoundly British conservative party – not that they believe in Britain, but they bought into a story of Britain… ” what does this even mean?
Currywurst
What complete tool.
Haven’t bought a newspaper in five years at least and I welcome you using the archive site to stop them getting the traffic. Currywurst is also the worst curry I’ve tasted in years, you should bin it.
First of all, Rev; this whole exercise has been excellent, I liked how you worded the questions, which must have given you a headache to begin with as you were receiving 1001 suggestions and the way you ended up delivering the results was well judged and easily digested from a readers point of view.
Secondly, what did we expect to happen here???? The BBC, Scotsman, Daily Record…..who all disgust us so much to report this???? We will only win this on the ground……all that has happened is that they have reported everything we expect in this debate…….NOTHING!! unless it is a poll saying we stand at 25%.
Convince one person you know in a calm and reasoned way and they will then convince one person they know and so on and so on……..that is how we will win, whilst the MSM continue reporting their drivel we will be buying the bubbly…….or meths if a NO wins.
I fired off a letter to the Herald on its apparent blindness to certain polls.
Again, I won’t hold my breath.
for the folk getting concerned about the “reach” or market share of WoS vs the printed press. WoS has the interesting feature of every article remaining on the site and being a second away from a google search, even on the eve of the referendum, every article will be there to help someone make up their mind. This will be immensely important for the historians who will be picking apart the campaign once the people have spoken next year.
yes, of course papers also have web offerings, but these aren’t normally the same as the print offerings – eg I consider the Scotsman to have a far more unionist stance online compared to the paper where formatting of a page sometimes allows counter articles to sit side by side.
One of my pleasures is going to the Scotsman threads and give the unionist naysayers a good verbal lashing.
Now I will forego that pleasure , I will not give them any advertising hits.
As to Curry ,he is typical of the hate filled unionists you meet on threads like the Scotsman.
It is best ignored that annoys these people more than anything.
It has now been posted on UK Polling site by Ivan 12 comment down.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/7958/comment-page-2#comment-851865
@ cynicalHighlander
It has now been posted on UK Polling site by Ivan 12 comment down.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/7958/comment-page-2#comment-851865
I didn’t have to register or go through any moderation, so feel free to pile in.
There’s a lot of comments on that thread so it could get lost amongst folk banging on about other stuff.
So the more the merrier.
Currywurst has got to be Duncan Hothersall (or Niclas from the Guardian maybe). These Brit Nats never engage in any political issues surrounding independence. All they do is be as offensive as possible, while misrepresenting people from the Yes side relentlessly. It is almost as if they know there is no positive case for the Union, and are merely there to prevent any meaningful debate from taking place. 😀 The problem for these political genuises is that, even if there is a No vote next year, it will have been ‘achieved’ through smears and misinformation.
They are attempting to achieve their goals by almost any means, regardless of the damage it does to the democratic process in Scotland. If the result is achieved this way, they must know that the voters in Scotland will not rush back to the Brit Nats (as the polls have been telling them). Still they pay no heed, they are so blinded by their hatred of Scottish self-government. Their behaviour since the SNP came to office in 2007 has been appalling. Their relentless negativism and constant denigration towards independence and the SNP has been astonishing. They have accused the FM in particular of literally anything they can think of. It has been almost the most petty and vindictive behaviour imaginable.
The electorate in Scotland have been given a glimpse of the poison at the heart of British Nationalism. You can see it from Johann Lamont, Anas Sarwar, Jim Murphy, Margaret Curran, Brian Wilson, Blair McDougall (Nat Finder General), through to Duncan Hothersall, Niclas and Longshanker.
An article on Aljazeera;
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/08/20138616595537418.html
@Marcia
Quote from Iain McWhirter which was interesting:
“I think that it’s partly that the Scottish media is very opposed to independence, so it tends to backpedal these stories,” noted Macwhirter. “If these were things that Alex Salmond was saying, it would have been open season. But they’ve gone to great lengths to protect the embarrassment of a lot of the UK arguments.”
That is why they will not report Rev Stu’s poll. End of.
Muttley
Here you go.
These are mostly proud Scots who are also proud Brits (on Twitter these same proud Scots/proud Brits show up fairly regularly – there`s maybe a dozen or so of them). It seems if proud Nat Scots vote for independence for their country (which they are proud of), then these proud Scots will ‘leave’; presumably for the part of their country they are more proud of?
Och well, though I`m sure none of their modest homes will go to waste.
I`m missing them already.
https://twitter.com/MajorDMalpas/status/366527523481325569
Its all a bit below the belt Rev (apologies on this juveniles behalf)
I’ll say it again this is only the start of the smear campaigns and it will get much, much worse. (‘McCarthy’ witch hunts anyone ??)
I think the term is get yours in first or change the rules
Currywurst = Some kind of hilarious Britter Together Comedian; but I think our German friends can tell us what Wurst is made of.
Maddy Macmanus
Both myself and my wife are on YouGov and we are rewarded eiher in money or in prize draws.
My wife does the Harris poll and Valued opinions and receives Amazon or Argos vouchers and money for doing so.
What was the point you were trying to make?
Of course participants are given rewards …………..why the fick would we do them.
Apparently Mark Twain said this…
“If you don’t read the newspaper, you’re uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you’re mis-informed.”
Wouldnt be surprised if the British state props up these failing rags over the coming year as a number of them must be on track to be unviable otherwise.
All online conducted polls offer small rewards for each survey an individual completes; they’d need to or people wouldn’t respond to the e-mail. The individual can chose to complete the poll when they like. They can pause and return to it. They can do it anywhere they have access to the internet. It is very quick and completely private so they can answer frankly, eliminating the ‘shy’ factor. Panels are made up of 100’s of 1000’s of individuals so a proper demographic sample can be consulted each time with ease.
Landline (IPSOS-MORI) telephone polls are limited to a demographic of people who generally still use a landline as their main phone when at home and who happen to be at home when the phone goes and who happen to want to give up 10 mins or more of their time answering questions for no reward and who are willing to truthfully divulge what they may consider private information about their politics to a stranger.
Face to Face (TNS-BMRB) polls are limited to a demographic of people who generally still use a landline as their main phone when at home (contact method for arranging poll) and who happen to be at home when the phone goes and who happen to want to give up a pre-arranged 10 mins or more of their time answering questions for no reward and who are willing to welcome a stranger into their home who they will then truthfully divulge what they may consider private information about their politics too.
Landline telephone methods are now considered the least reliable approach as large sections of the population no longer us landlines. Face to face has the same problem if organised by landline in addition to being the worst for ‘Shy’ factors where people just lie. ‘Och naw’ to independence or ‘I voted Labour’ when they voted Tory.
Online polls – while having their own issues to consider – are understood to be the most accurate. They typucally show the most stability unlike landline / F2F which are volatile and reactive (e.g. people suddenly become shy when a view is portrayed in the media as ‘bad’). They also commonly show infeasibly low ‘would not vote’ and ‘don’t knows’; a result of the demographic being people who want to talk about their politics for no reward.
Panelbase was one of the first to spot the SNP landslide coming in 2011. It historically agrees with e.g. Comres, ICM and Angus Reid; the latter two considered the really big guns. In contrast MORI and TNS have been the main outliers historically on the indy question, having a tendency for higher No and lower Yes. They also predict infeasibly low ‘Would not votes / DKs’ as noted.
Only 18% ready to vote to join the union today should be about right.
wrt being paid to answer polls, I do polls for Yougov. I get points, which turn into cash once I accrue 5000 I get 50 pounds. Yougov decide who to send out the polls to, there are time limits to some, they obviously send out to a large number which fit the demographic trends of the population and once they have got back their needed responses the survey is closed to others in that group. Quite often I don’t get asked for a while then there is a wee spurt of surveys. I’m sure Panelbase operate in a very similar way. You will not reach a proper sample of the population without paying for their opinion even at 50p or 75p a go, because some sections of the population don’t think they need to do anything for nothing, but must receive a reward at all times ( they don’t volunteer for example, why give your work for free?) If you strip out all the surveys done where people receive a reward you’d not be left with much. Just the other day I did a walk-in survey on Pringles, I got £1 and a plate full of the new flavour. I suppose all that information about the Pringles is irrelevant to the manufacturer because they paid me? Eh? I have told another walk-in survey exactly what I thought about plug-in air fresheners, and they still paid me. Being paid to answer a survey causing the survey to be invalid is a red herring. We all know it too.
We should keep our collective knickers on about the Edinburgh International Festival announcement – he’s right, the Fringe will take up plenty of the slack – it’s a far bigger and freer event anyway. Plus there is also the Festival of Politics, which should be growing arms and legs of its own next year.
@spout
I know the Glasgow Media group personally.
They are good people.
I agree it is a little frustrating that they aren’t addressing this issue. I’d suggest limited budget, time and support for indy would be the reason they aren’t addressing it.
The first two of those reasons would be paramount.
Here is my podcast with one of them…
http://www.spreaker.com/user/michaelgreenwell/scotindypod_8_on_the_bbc_david_miller
@spout
For clarity, he was in it, then he left and had a hand in starting spinwatch etc.
Found this over at the Vote No 2014 (ex British Unity) Facebook page (I know, I know). A wall of utter shite hits you, but this one is, well…
Look to the bottom left.
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/4127/3nh9.jpg
Found this over at the Vote No 2014
That’s the other thing I find weird; that people think polls influence voting intention. That would be amazing. The SNP are on 48% right now. Therefore, more people should support the SNP if polls influence intention. Thus, we should expect them to rise to 50%. This in turn would encourage more people to vote SNP, so up we go. Soon, we’d be at 100% SNP!
Polls reflect what people think, they don’t influence it. The only area where influence can occur is shyness. If something is ‘taboo’ then people may not openly voice support for it. However, if people are all talking about it and saying it’s ok, then people stop being shy. This might pop up in polls but again it is a reflection; the poll has not influenced.
This is why the press might want to suppress Rev’s poll. Not because the findings might influence the individual directly, but influence the group, making people more open about supporting independence (‘Oh, only 18% would vote for the union – so I’m not alone’). MORI (telephone) and TNS (Face to Face) show influence of a ‘shy’ factor with regard to admitting support for independence; the online pollsters don’t due to anonymity. Basically, MORI and TNS show exaggerated trends due to how ‘publicly acceptable’ it seems to support independence. However, this is not a reflection of actual VI. If someone supports something they’ll vote for it even if they don’t admit it in public.
Attacking independence as something bad – something only ‘nasty anti-English separatists’ would do – is a really stupid tactic. All it does is turn people against the union while at the same time reduces the likelihood of having them them openly admit this; one instance of this being when they are polled.
I am not surprisedthat this is getting no coverage. Why point out that the media is biased and then be surprised when it acts in a biased way?
It does worry me that it is having the affect that the Unionists want.
I was speaking to a “new Scot” yesterday. He heard Nicola Sturgeon speak, and said he was convinced “but maybe not yet”
If it doesn’t happen now then I think the Unionists will ensure it could never come close to happening again. I answered some of his points, and hope he is thinking some more about it. All we can do, be reasonable, patient and not ranty, even though the situation makes us want to tear out hair out, because yes, it is not a fair fight of two points of view. It is a stifling of our arguments, and a refusal to put forward rational arguments by the “No Camp”
“‘If publishers and editors exert themselves to keep certain topics out of print, it is not because they are frightened of prosecution but because they are frightened of public opinion.‘”
Yes, they are not frightened the results of polls would directly influence opinion, but instead cause people to talk more openly about the opinion they already have.
http://www.newstatesman.com/newspapers/2013/08/london-newspaper-bias-half-national-news-about-south-east
An interesting article on London bias in regional news.
Well if the BBC and the MSM are not willing to publish the poll or even discuss its existance it means we are getting to them and it certainly gives us a lot of amunition to take them on at a later date. It was great work REV.
OT, I was working the “yes campaign” stall at Keith show for a couple of hours this morning and their was a lot of interest being expressed, and this was ranking from absolute YES to I dinna ken fit ta dee yet. But a lot more positives than negatives, though we are still trying to work oot fit the guy meant by muttering ‘bannockburn’ as he just walked pass and disappeared into the distance.
Both “UKOK” and “UKIP” had their stalls on the go, but when I walking round the show with my family their did appear to be a force field infront of the UKIP site but I did only observe it for about 5 mins, so I’m sure somebody spoke to them sometime during the day!!
And as for the WISH list where people were being asked to write on a tag what their hopes and dreams were for an independent Scotland and tie it to the wish tree, I loved this one ” I want it to be more SUNNY in a independent Scotland, James age 9″, thats my boy.
Best of luck to all the volunteers working the stalls tomorrow for the second day of Keith Show, say hello if your in the area, and well done to all the volunteers who do this every weekend throughout the country, yourselves and sites like WOS are definately getting the message out there.
Vote YES, Vote Scotland.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
@
Ivan McKee
I loved this one ” I want it to be more SUNNY in a independent Scotland, James age 9?,
We can do that. Well, we can do our bit. Wetter summers are likely a result of climate change and renewable energy has a big part to play in combating that.
Going O/T for a second:
Extraordinary stat from Gerry Hassan on an article published on Newsnet:
‘For all of the talk of ‘rebalancing the economy’, the UK in investment to GDP ratios is 159th in the world on 2012 figures, with a mere fourteen countries below it, seven in the sub-Saharan Africa.’
A good article all in all about British Nationalism in denial:
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/7846-unionists-come-out-and-declare-your-nationalism
OT But have you seen this?
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts/news/scottish-independence-productions-ban-at-eif-2014-1-3040283
A pal just commented on this on twitter.
Mills: We want to be politically neutral, so we’re going to commission work about empire, commonwealth and WWI
Sounds about right, earning his knighthood in defence of the realm.
I loved this one ” I want it to be more SUNNY in a independent Scotland, James age 9?
I dunno. England’s warmer and drier than Scotland. If we ‘separated’, we’d lose this influence on our climate, leading to colder and wetter conditions surely?
😉
O/T but it’s a question I’ve been wanting to ask.
What kind of plans do other people who live in England have for voting next year?
I live about a five hour drive from my folks so could logistically easily get up to cast my vote.
Are there any issues about changing where I am registered on the electoral role? I am registered down here.
We’re having a wish tree at Peebles next Saturday. I wonder, can I wish for land reform?
Andrew Haddow just tweeted this, never see this poll before either, it removed “dont knows” but has Yes in front of the No vote:
“Don’t recall seeing this reported anywhere.”
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-agree-that-scotland-should-be-an-independent-country-dont-knows-not-avai#table
Are there any issues about changing where I am registered on the electoral role? I am registered down here.
It would depend whether you could truthfully state your “folks'” address in Scotland as being your main residence. I don’t think you can be registered in two places now, so you’d have to come off the register in anywhere you might be “temporarily” resident for work.
All electoral correspondence would come to the address you were registered at. You could still apply for a postal vote if someone was prepared to post stuff on to you. Though who wouldn’t want to be on the spot if they could possibly manage it?
And if you think I’m speaking from experience here, you’d be right. 25 years of it. The one thing I didn’t have to alter when I finally moved back was my electoral registration data!
I tried to push the Panelbase poll on the Herald on a Macwirter and Bell thread today. My comment on the more popular Macwhirter thread was removed by moderators but an identical comment on the Bell thread is still there……..I wrote;
Interesting article.
I hope Mr Bell can look into and report on the results of the most recent Panelbase survey on independence. Type ‘panelbase poll august 2013’ into google and check it out – lots of fascinating statistics that should be aired and discussed by good journalists.
i will continue to push this every day and we will see what happens….
Perhaps Mr McWhirter can comment on his thread of comments being censored when Mr Bell’s is not ?
Hail Alba
“It would depend whether you could truthfully state your “folks’” address in Scotland as being your main residence. I don’t think you can be registered in two places now, so you’d have to come off the register in anywhere you might be “temporarily” resident for work.
All electoral correspondence would come to the address you were registered at. You could still apply for a postal vote if someone was prepared to post stuff on to you. Though who wouldn’t want to be on the spot if they could possibly manage it?”
I couldn’t truthfully state my parents’ address as being my main address at the moment but I was thinking that if I made the change well in advance of the referendum it might get in under the radar…
I have no issues coming off the register here (nobody I could vote for if there any elections anyway) but I would still be paying council tax and bills at my English address so I don’t know if that would be cross referenced anywhere?
Parents would post important stuff if I asked- no issues there. But, I would most definitely book a few days off work to come up, vote and then celebrate our famous victory!
I have no issues coming off the register here (nobody I could vote for if there any elections anyway) but I would still be paying council tax and bills at my English address so I don’t know if that would be cross referenced anywhere?
Parents would post important stuff if I asked- no issues there. But, I would most definitely book a few days off work to come up, vote and then celebrate our famous victory!
Let’s just say I have 25 years of experience says it can be done. Including the time when you had to have a “good reason” for a postal vote, and spanning the period from rates, all through poll tax, and into council tax. My mother simply recorded me as being resident there on the electoral register forms. The forms that came in to the house I had bought in England (purely as a temporary residence to allow me to work away from home, you understand) were returned with “registered elsewhere” written across them. That satisfied the English registrar. And both I and my mother claimed single-occupancy council tax discounts, which was never queried.
I flew up on the lunchtime flight from Gatwick on 9th September 1997, full of trepidation, and ended the day past midnight, phoning the London SNP people who were gathered in Brighton in someone’s living room, and us screaming down the phone at each other. I was tucked up in bed with a portable TV on the sideboard, and my mother was telling me to keep my voice down the neighbours would hear. I didn’t care.
I’m looking forward to a repeat performance in the screaming ecstasy stakes next year, though happily with no need to fly anywhere. Sadly though, my mother died two years ago – though we did get the repeat performance in May 2011 and she knew we would win when that happened.
“It would depend whether you could truthfully state your “folks’” address in Scotland as being your main residence. I don’t think you can be registered in two places now, so you’d have to come off the register in anywhere you might be “temporarily” resident for work.”
Don’t be so shy about changing your registered address to be able to cast your ref. vote. A whole generation of politicians such as Darling have no qualms about flip-flopping their first and second places of residence to fill up their pockets.
What’s good enough for them is good enough for us.
You know, thinking about that wonderful day 16 years ago reminded me of something. On the Saturday I drove into Edinburgh to meet up with the group who had been camped outside the Royal High School since 1992. I had been sending the a fiver a month since they started the vigil, and this was their camp-striking party.
In the midst of the whoopee round the brazier, a LibDem looked at my SNP badge and said, I can’t figure out why you SNP people are all so happy. I just stared at him. I mean, wasn’t it obvious how much the parliament would benefit the independence campaign? But apparently not to him. He seems to have believed Robertson or something.
I think that just about says it all for the political acumen of unionists, and their ability to read the tea-leaves.
Good point, Midgehunter. (I was being a wee bit circumspect.) All through these 25 years I still had my room in my mother’s house, and came home frequently for weekends and Christmas and so on. I casually referred to it as “home” even when talking to my friends in England. I really did have two residences.
I just picked the one I slept in less often as my address for the electoral register.
It didn’t affect entitlement to single-occupancy discounts at all, and nobody cares where you pay your utility bills. I doubt if the local Conservative or Labour parties had a clue what I was up to, and while the SNP branch probably knew, they certainly weren’t going to clype. When Jack McConnell became FM, I got the dubious pleasure of declaring “I didn’t vote for him”. That was how much my vote changed anything! But it meant a lot to me, every election time, knowing I wasn’t part of the three-ring circus going on in England all around me.
Personally, I think it’s entirely ethical. You have a home in Scotland. Use it.
You’re ‘home’ is where you register to vote.
Yes. It did confuse my English friends though. I remember one saying to me once, do you realise you used the word “home” twice in one sentence, referring to two entirely different places?
One was where I paid the mortgage and the bills and slept most nights. One was where my old clothes and old books resided, and where I slept rather fewer nights. The latter was the one I chose to be registered at, for a full 25 years. Going right through the horror of Gordon Wilson losing his seat in 1983 (but someone else won his seat that night!) to the 2005 general election which I can’t honestly remember. I was back for 2007, and everything changed.
Then today we hear the head of the Edinburgh International festival has taken the decision next years festival will be “politically neutral” by banning anything to do with the referendum and focussing on the commemoration of WWI. Lovely.
Cath, I dearly hope such a thing won’t be applied to the Edinburgh Fringe – though frankly, I don’t see how it could. In fact, such a decision could end up backfiring mightily: is it not the lot of the artist to rebel against the establishment, so even though they don’t officially discuss the referendum, they could easily bring up information and topics relevant to it – say, by talking about the disproportionate number of Scots lost in the world wars?
Mills: We want to be politically neutral, so we’re going to commission work about empire, commonwealth and WWI
Your friend has it right!
I’ve just been reading Rev Stu Campbell’s frustration with respect to the apparent refusal of the Scottish/UK press to give the Panelbase Poll that was commissioned by Wings Over Scotland. I understand that Yes Scotland also have a constant battle trying to get stories out there and to get them the weight and longevity that they deserve.
It is great that we have social media now. We can get of the information out there ourselves. But then nobody who knows me is going to think that I am impartial and I do not have either the authority nor the coverage that a BBC presenter has.
It seems to me that in other struggles around the world where control of the press is (seemingly) far more draconian and oppressive than it is here, the underdogs rely on international news agencies, ironically, such as the BBC, to get the news out there and to bring international pressure upon the situation for a fair resolution.
Without international scrutiny, who can we be so naïve as to think that we will be given a fair crack at the whip? Balanced and impartial reporting? That there will not be any interference or dirty tricks from the establishment? That the UK government will treat us fairly and be honest about the debts and assets of the UK, a proportion of which we will be entitled to/liable for? Or even that they will not repeat 1979 and not actually grant the people their democratic decision?
Had we had the eyes of the world on us in 1979, do you honestly think that the UK could have overturned the result of the referendum, without a great deal of international pressure being brought upon it, along with a total loss of credibility? How would the BBC have reported it had it happened somewhere else? Hell, we’d probably have sent in the army in support of the “rebels”!
The perception that the BBC is of such high quality and are (they believe at least) the gold standard for good investigative journalism, unbiased coverage and independence from state interference, is massively important to the UK brand, the UK government, the BBC and indeed the people of these islands. They have a massive pride in the fact that they think that the world looks to the BBC for it’s news. As a result the BBC is held in such high regard, that many people believe, unquestioningly, whatever they are told by the BBC.
However, if we can get our stories out to foreign media and we can get them to cover it, then the BBC will either be forced to cover the stories or to give up the illusion that they are even handed. An example of this is that Westminster, Whitehall, the BBC and Fleet Street have lied to us for the last 4 decades about the value and longevity of North Sea oil and gas.
I think that part of our problem is that we are indeed to parochial in some respects, have bought into the BBC’s hype and totally underestimate (and fail to promote) the significance of a “Yes” vote in the referendum. We must see it as being up there with the falling of the Berlin wall. We also need to up the imagery and narrative to reflect that.
When you look at the level of coverage that Scottish independence gets on the BBC, you’d be forgiven for thinking that it is even more of a non-event than the AV referendum.
We obviously need to keep plugging away at the UK media, and Yes Scotland do a great job considering. But I think that we need to ensure that we have multi-linguists working in Yes Scotland, taking the campaign to a global level, irrespective of the fact that it is only the people who live here (rightly, in my opinion) who will be entitled to vote.
We need to show ambition, that we are not a pokey wee isolated country, that we are outward looking and internationalists and importantly that the rest of the world is watching with interest, because we matter. Furthermore, when it comes to negotiations with the EU, we need to be seen to be of value.
We have spent the last few decades trying to convince Scots that we are not worthless, that we do not need to rely on subsidies and benefits and that we could very easily stand on our own two feet, with a great deal to offer. It is going to be a big undertaking getting sufficient numbers of Scots to understand that in time for the referendum, but after that we’ll also have to do the same with a Europe that has been told even less about Scotland and what we are bringing to the table, so far they only have the UK BBC output to go on.
For us to be able to show the Scottish people that Europe will accept us, in advance of the referendum, then we must convince the EU Foreign Ministers as a matter of great urgency, that they will actually be falling over themselves to get us to stay in the EU, never mind having to apply to stay in/join.
Are we doing enough? Are we thinking as ourselves as part of the international community, or as part of the UK?
Bus stops ,lets get WOS, NC,Bella,LFI.SSP,the Greens,Libdemsfor INDY ,even cats for Indy on posters on every bus stop.Got a question on Indy ,heres where to look. Theres enough talent across these sites to create a good poster .Anyone know how to go about it ?People may not read papers orwatch the news but they have to travel.
Morag, when I write reign , I mean reign. For example the dominating power or influence the Labour party has been given.
Frazzle Dazzle Darling, that was a hell of a post!
BBC accused of left wing bias
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/10235967/BBC-is-biased-toward-the-left-study-finds.html
Tell that to Guido Fawkes!
Thanks for the reassurances above! I am actively trying to find a way back to live and settle in Scotland as it is a country I want to live in (unlike England where I currently find myself).
I sincerely hope that will happen in time for me to cast my vote next year but I need to make contingency plans!
BBC accused of left wing bias
In a bizarre study that compared their coverage with the Guardian and the Telegraph. And then concluded that having more stories in common with the former than the latter is left-wing bias. That is a typical Telegraph position, though: everything not as far right as them is left.
Today’s Daily Record
SCOTS don’t believe top politicians when they talk about independence.
In a Panelbase survey of more than 1000 Scots, just nine per cent thought First Minister Alex Salmond was always honest about going it alone.
Only three per cent believed Better Together campaigner Alistair Darling was always truthful about independence.
I copied this from the iPad edition, but I can’t find the article online to give a link.
Remember Call Kaye this morning folks. I can guess right now our poll won’t be the topic but…. Ring, ring!!,
Call Kaye contact details
“Lines are open from 0800 every weekday morning: 0500 92 95 00
You can text 80295 or send your emails to callkaye@bbc.co.uk“
It is getting out there though.
http://laidbackviews.wordpress.com/category/scotlands-future/
I have written to Iain Macwhirter at the Herald, and to his Facebok page; written to the BBC, STV news Facebook page, and a number of other media sources. I hope readers will do the same. Every little helps!