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Wings Over Scotland


People are strange

Posted on April 09, 2014 by

We had a couple of questions in our poll that were quite complex and involved, so to give people a wee bit of respite we threw in a little light-hearted one as well.

Q: If this was the referendum ballot paper, how would you vote?

flagballotpaper

That made some quite odd stuff happen.

Scotland: 44%
UK: 46%
Don’t know: 10%

That gap was not-insignificantly smaller than the one the actual referendum question produced. Once you strip out the Don’t Knows, it turns the 47-53 of the real question into a 49-51. That’s a 2% swing simply by replacing six words with two little flags meaning the same thing – or, perhaps, forcing people to confront the cold reality of what they’re choosing as their nation and their identity.

It was also intriguing to see what difference it made in various categories.

———————————————————————————————————

PERCENTAGE-POINT CHANGE IN VOTE (+ means towards Yes)

Conservative voters: -4
Labour voters: 0
Lib Dem voters: -3
SNP voters: +8

Men: 0
Women: +6

16-34s: +8
35-54s: +4
Over-55s: -2

ABC1: 0
C2DE: +5

And then the really weird one:

Yes voters: -5
No voters: +5

———————————————————————————————————

Yeah, us too. But that’s what the stats say: 5% of people planning to vote Yes would switch to a No if you made the referendum question a picture of flags instead, but 5% of No voters would also switch to Yes.

You could take that as a word of caution against taking opinion polls too seriously if you like. You could interpret it as meaning some Scots are easily confused. Or you could say it meant that they didn’t like to feel as if they were being emotionally manipulated. Or that nationality is complex, and putting the question in such a simplistic way rendered it meaningless or offensive to Scottish citizens who were born somewhere else. Or that, as we noted earlier, people are just contrary.

Frankly, folks, your guess is as good as ours.

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    189 to “People are strange”

    1. Gordon says:

      Regarding the ‘5% of people planning to vote Yes would switch to a No if you made the referendum question a picture of flags’ I believe that is going to be the generally ‘left’ and ‘anti nationalist’ YES voters.

      Fair enough; they see it – that is voting YES – as something beyond flags etc.

      For the rest hard to say.

    2. heedtracker says:

      There is a small thingee called dual citizenship for goodness sake. Or vote YES for new democracy for Scotland and be British and Scots.

    3. a2 says:

      “Proud Scot” factor

    4. themadmurph says:

      It seems to fly in the face of what the census delivered in 2011. Was it not something like 60-odd% declared themselves as Scottish only?

    5. Appleby says:

      I think the Scottish Cringe and the beaten down and mixed up identity Scots try to live with makes for these kind of results.

    6. Dan Huil says:

      Maybe it’s because the blue of the Scotland flag is too dark.

    7. CLIFF MCCABE says:

      people aren’t that strange, what is a little strange is that we yes supporters go out of our way and are vehement that this referendum is about civic nationalism, yet you find it difficult to comprehend why the thought of voting on the basis of a flag puts some of us off.

    8. Mary Bruce says:

      I personally know 8 English people who are voting yes, maybe they would have chosen the union flag? I will ask them.

    9. Robert Kerr says:

      @Dan Huil

      Not as dark as the Dark Lord and the Forces of Darkness.

    10. Cath says:

      Interesting. I quite like that flag result as it basically means neither side has anything to gain from making it too much about flags, nationalism and identities. Which in turn suggests a basically quite sensible electorate.

      I’m a yes voter and showing the choice as two flags wouldn’t make me switch because that’s not what I’m voting for. But it would piss me off a bit and make the question basically something I’m not voting for or against and something a bit tawdry and irrelevant.

      Plus to me, the union jack is most bound up with mod music, and I still love the Beatles, Who, Kinks etc. I’d feel a bit like I was voting for them or the Proclaimers Bay City Rollers and that could shift me if you’re not careful 😉

    11. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Maybe a football club thing.

    12. handclapping says:

      Well that is the end of the “Braveheart” hypothesis. People are chosing on their own basis and not on nationalist emotion. In fact it looks as if emotional appeals don’t, rather like Kinnock’s “All Right!”. May have worked for a few but many felt manipulated and so turned off.

    13. SquareHaggis says:

      Neighbour just told me Alex Salmond was on TV last night backing away from Independence, apparently saying if not this time, next time type of thing.

      Anyone else see/hear this interview?

    14. david says:

      Try it with a pic of Cameron and the saltire see what happens lol

    15. Richard Taylor says:

      Why do people always portray the background colour of the Saltire as navy blue when it is actually sky blue?

    16. Papadox says:

      Nowt as strange as folk!

    17. david says:

      Try it with a pic of Cameron and the Saltire and see what happens lol

    18. david says:

      @squsrehaggis
      ye i heard him say that,not sure what channel it was ?

    19. Macandroid says:

      Pantone 300 next time Stu please 🙂

    20. Desimond says:

      Sadly you missed a great chance to use The Housemartins brilliant ‘Flag day’ as a reference there Rev!

      “Too many hands in too many pockets
      Not enough hands on hearts
      Too many ready to call it a day
      Before the day starts”

      http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/h/housemartins/flag_day.html

    21. CameronB says:

      I’m sure there is at least one doctoral thesis in there, somewhere. 🙂

    22. crisiscult says:

      I visited the Better together facebook quite a few times and was frankly disgusted by the jingoism and nationalism (patriotism, please note Jim Murphy, according the urban dictionary is in modern parlance no different) on display. My wife is Russian/Ukrainian and to listen to people talking about being stronger together, being against Berlin control, the outrage at foreign languages being spoken in ‘our country’ etc etc, I’d definitely say national identity should be kept separate. My wife says she’s voting yes, but not sure the flag is going to make a difference. Actually the British flag is a bit of a fashion brand these days. Doesn’t mean I want millionaire private schoolies driving social ideology.

    23. jingly jangly says:

      SquareHaggis

      He was not backing away from Independence, he was doing a rare thing for a Politician , telling the truth, he was asked why Scotland was wanting Independence, and he explained that it has been 100 years in the making and the journey would not be over if it was a No vote.

    24. SquareHaggis says:

      @Dave,

      Doesn’t sound like something he’d be wanting to say at this stage.
      Seeds of doubt don’t exactly instil confidence, why the sudden change in tact?

    25. Faltdubh says:

      A pal of mine who was a No from the “too poor” brigade to begin, and now is “no sure” in his exact words, I think is exactly one of these No +5 voters.

      He is very wary of independence, I’ve tried numerous times to tell of this site, Newsnet, Bella, Nat Col etc plus McCrone and my own arguments( the usual – no weapons, wars, and a chance to build a bright future). Still, he’s very cautious, but says he will consider it.

      Yet, if you ask him if he’s British, he says that he is not and he is Scottish. I cannot understand his mentality. He is not much of a reader to which he admits, but he most certainly would tick the Scotland box yet is unsure on independence.

      He has said he probably won’t vote so at least it’s a one less stupid No vote, but I am going to work my arse off to convince him to vote yes. I’ve managed to sway 3 people to a yes vote – so I’ve done my work, but 4 is my fave number! 😉

    26. Clootie says:

      It’s like drinking water from your hands. You get some but a lot runs away. Keep trying Stu – I’m trying to keep up!

      I think I will just about have it by the time the poll comes out 🙁

    27. James Kelly says:

      “It seems to fly in the face of what the census delivered in 2011. Was it not something like 60-odd% declared themselves as Scottish only?”

      I don’t think there’s any contradiction. The wording makes clear that it’s simply a different way of posing the referendum question, so respondents will have known that choosing the Union Jack was a ‘No’ vote to independence, not a rejection of Scottish identity (and not even necessarily an affirmation of British identity). Remember that everyone answered the real referendum question at the start of the poll, so a large number of respondents would probably have been consciously trying to keep their later responses consistent with that initial answer.

    28. SquareHaggis says:

      Thanks for squaring that circle Jingly Jangly, had me worried there.
      Wording is everything and the guy next door will be getting a lugfae just presently.

    29. Doug Daniel says:

      SquareHaggis:

      Doesn’t sound like something he’d be wanting to say at this stage.
      Seeds of doubt don’t exactly instil confidence, why the sudden change in tact?

      Nah, he wasn’t backing away from anything. His point was simply that whether it happens this year or not, we’re on a journey with only one destination.

      If we can get undecided voters to realise that, then they’re probably more likely to just go “well we might as well get it done now, then”.

    30. Mealer says:

      In a sample of 1000 folk there will be a percentage who are easily confused and a percentage who are contrary and a percentage who like taking the p*ss out of pollsters.In the forthcoming referendum,I suspect that if you asked a thousand people how they’re going to vote as they went into the polling station the answer would be quite different to where they put their cross on the paper.We’re in too close to call territory at the moment.According to panelbase,Atleast.According to other pollsters,we’re still a wee bit short of that position.Keep at it!

    31. Andy Anderson says:

      I can understand this last aspect of the poll with the flags. I am a firm yes voter and the flags did not affect my vote like the majority but if made me feel a little less comfortable because it seemed to reinforce the idea that this is a nationalist issue rather than a democratic issue.

    32. M4rkyboy says:

      You should have used the Royal standard.

    33. SquareHaggis says:

      He’s got to watch his wording on that one Doug, just spoke to the neighbour and he’s still convinced that’s what he heard.

      I can’t understand this as he’s a staunch SNP supporter of 40 odd year and a definite Yes. You’d think he’d be attuned to listening to the FM by now, especially at this stage in the game, strange.

      Maybe all the negative stuff from yesterday is killing off anything positive?

    34. Andy-B says:

      A strange result indeed, maybe you should substitute the Saltire for William the Lions banner, you know the yellow flag with the lion rampant on it, that we see mainly at football matches.

      O/T I do apologise.

      Anas Sarwar in the London owned Daily Record saying “We must move away from an economy built on the backs of poor people.” What a cheek from a man who abstained on the bedroom tax, and voted to freeze welfare whilst the cost of living keeps on rising, Mr Sarwar couldn’t care less about the poor.

    35. Blair paterson says:

      I fail to se how a flag would make people vote one way or the other I would vote. Yes no matter what flag they showed you either want independence or not O.t. Do not worry about robertson,s vote as my vote will cancel his out. Vote yes

    36. MochaChoca says:

      I’ve been thinking about this ‘proud scot (but)’ thing a bit.

      What do they say if asked what it is about Scotland that makes them proud?

      I can’t really come up with anything that they could claim to be proud of about Scotland that would in any way be reduced by us gaining independence. Indeed it seems far more the case that much of what there is to be proud of would be significantly enhanced.

      Any thoughts?

    37. msean says:

      This is what you get when brainwashing occurs,when every carton of eggs has union jacks on.It’s everywhere as free advertising.

    38. Cactus says:

      Our independence vote does (or should) really boil down to national identity.. I’ll go one further, the cold reality of where you consider your ‘homeland’ to be?

      Say you’re abroad somewhere on holiday (if you can afford to), you go looking for somewhere to eat.. the person on the promenade with the menu engages with you and asks where you’re from? I’ll let you decide that one for yourselves undecided voters.

      The clue is in the question fellow Scotians: “Vote (X) ONLY ONCE”, so sign with your saltire (but don’t colour in our flag) then never need to sign again, ONLY ONCE. Coincidentally, I hear it from a ‘highly respected’ source that if you do intend to vote the other way, the correct method is to sign (ONLY ONCE) with the Alternative Vote cross (+).

      So let’s blow a big kiss Scotland’s way!

    39. Les Wilson says:

      Sorry, O/T
      This was a part of an article I got today. Explains in a way why Labour MP’s are so against Independence.

      “At least we can count on the government to keep things in check. In 2009, the Independent Parliament Standards Authority was set up to monitor and regulate MPs’ salaries. At the time, MPs were paid a basic sum of £64,766 – that’s now set to jump to £75,000 in 2015. That’s progress… right? And according to the Association of British Insurers the average person’s life savings wouldn’t even buy one year’s worth of an MP’s pension. Hmmm… nice work if you can get it!”

      Sounds to me that, is their motivation.

    40. G H Graham says:

      Leaving aside the Saltire blue being too dark, there’s a simple explanation.

      The referendum isn’t asking people to choose an identity, it’s asking them where they want their government to be based & this define the boundary of their country.

      After all, some folks will still consider themselves “British” even if they vote for independence because, rightfully so, they will remain within the archipelago also known as the British Isles.

    41. Sue says:

      @Mary Bruce

      Here’s one for your private poll – I’m from Yorkshire, voting yes. Would choose Saltire over union flag, and over the St George cross too, for what that’s worth. I would also choose English flag over union flag.

    42. themadmurph says:

      meant to add this in earlier, but got distracted by work!!

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24282271

      Data released from the 2011 census showed 62% described themselves as “Scottish only”, while 18% said they were “Scottish and British”.

      Rev., maybe the real choice is between seeing ourselves as Scottish or a region of England. Maybe you chose the wrong flag?

    43. SquareHaggis says:

      Biggest laugh of the day, David Camerons’ just said on the BBC news intro “there’s lots of honest MP’s in Westminster!”

      Holy be Jesus, where?

    44. Chris Cairns says:

      @ Andy Anderson

      I agree – I suspect the apparent anomalies the Rev has uncovered are to do with the fact that some people are voting Yes for democratic, economic, nationalistic or any number of other reasons (I’ve heard a religious reason on the doorstep!) – it’s not necessarily a vote FOR Scotland RATHER THAN Britain.

      PS – anyone else having to fill in their name and email address every time they comment?

    45. James Kelly says:

      “Biggest laugh of the day, David Camerons’ just said on the BBC news intro “there’s lots of honest MP’s in Westminster!” Holy be Jesus, where?”

      He’s talking about the SNP and Plaid Cymru benches, naturally.

    46. SquareHaggis says:

      🙂

    47. CameronB says:

      Personally, I consider myself a human being who’s ‘national identity’ is an accident of birth. My appreciation of Scotland, as an idea, is personal and has nothing to do with my voting intentions. My appreciation of Scotland’s history and it’s potential, however, are fundamental to my voting intention.

      I am a human being who does not like being taken advantage of by others who do not have my best interests at heart. Got that Better Together?

      This is why I am voting YES.

    48. Proud Cybernat says:

      My two P’s worth:

      Q1) Scotland is a:

      a) Region

      b) Country

      (Tick one only)

      Q2) A country should stand on its own two feet:

      a) YES

      b) NO

    49. Cactus says:

      Allow me:

      The Doors ~ People Are Strange
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq9oR9x171w

      Also, congratulations to all 16/17 year olds for being able to make history, now having been given the opportunity to vote on Scotland’s Future for the first time. Speak up!

    50. Cactus says:

      Apols, that http wasn’t meant to be there, learning..

    51. frazer allan whyte says:

      MochaChoca I think the more or less anagram Crudpots would describe these people better. What is there to be proud of? Did anyone actualy ask to be born in any particular country with any specific genetic or historical heritage? You are what you are in this regard. Scotland has also produced its share of psychopathic killers, opium dealers and other undesriables.

      What is important is doing something to make your country proud of you – by doing something so good, so useful, so merciful or saving that your non-countrymen think well of your people because you came out of that same group.

      I’ve lived out of Scotland almost all my life although I grew up in a very Scottish family. I’ve also had a lot to do with refugees and migrants. Nothing made me prouder of Scots than when I read a few years ago of Glasgow neighbours banding together to stop the forced deportation of one of their own. What was the benefit to them? Nothing to be measured by money or power and everything to do with friendship and decency.

      I finally gave up any hope in the UK when dying Ama Sumani was dragged from her bed in Cardiff and sent back to Ghana – formerly the imperially looted Gold Coast – to die of exhaustion and lack of medication. The whining reply of the bureaucrat – “It was completely legal and just goes to show how hard it is for us to make these decisions.”(I summarize)- was truly stomach turning. This person has recently been promoted high in the Westminster bureaucracy.

      I hope and believe that Scotland can be some sort of beacon of hope through its concern and help to those in need – its own people in need of help first and generous to others in the rest of a very uncertain world. It will not have leaders who slip arms to oppressive dictators and then celebrate themselves as liberators after participating a second time in massacring a country’s people.

      Alex Salmond has said independence will be won by emphasizing the positive and that means not just what Scots have been or are now but the amazing opportunities to do good to their own and others that independence will bring.

    52. Capella says:

      Yet another example of “Caledonian Antisyzygy”!

    53. wee folding bike says:

      msean,

      Some people don’t buy eggs, butter, whatever if it has a Union flag on it.

    54. SquareHaggis says:

      Apache update Aberdeenshire

      http://tinyurl.com/q6l9vwv

      2 lambs born one named Apache the other named Montgomery in paper version of the Evening Express.

      And another, unspecified near miss at 4pm today

      http://tinyurl.com/oyq9jb2

    55. MolliBlum says:

      Naw, SquareHaggis — Salmond wasn’t “backing away” from independence. He was just charting the trajectory and painting independence as an inevitability (even in the unlikely even that it doesn’t happen this time around).

    56. crisiscult says:

      CameronB says:
      9 April, 2014 at 5:10 pm

      Personally, I consider myself a human being who’s ‘national identity’ is an accident of birth. My appreciation of Scotland, as an idea, is personal and has nothing to do with my voting intentions.

      very much agree with your sentiment. Identity is a personal thing, which for me is made up of lots of things such as my sense of humour (or lack of), ideas, attitudes, etc, and this may include my own personal beliefs in national identity and also religion. I don’t like other people telling me I need to be proud or ashamed of something the country I live in did in the past, or its citizens did in the past. However, I think this ‘nation’ or ‘geographical region’ i.e. Scotland can do much much better. Hopefully that isn’t at the expense of some other ‘nation’ or ‘region’ of the world.

      By the way, if I believed Scotland would become more neo-liberal than the UK is right now, I’d be voting no.

    57. Jim T says:

      @Cactus 5:14

      The thing with the http stuff is that if the rest of the URL starts with a “www” then you DO need to strip off the “http://”. When it goes through the WordPress grinder, that re-instates the http bit.

      If you have an address that starts with something other than “www”, such as our beloved bbc, e.g. news.bbc.co.uk, that needs to have the http bit still on the front, otherwise the WorpPress thingy doesn’t recognise it as a proper web address and doesn’t automatically reinstate it.

      Clear as mud eh? 🙂

    58. Andrew Morton says:

      OT, at the golf club today for the first Medal of the year. In the bar afterwards in a group of nine men ranging from twenties to sixties. Six Yessers and three Nos. One of the Nos was a Tory who adored Margaret Thatcher and stated he would move to England if there was a Yes vote as his pension would be “F****d” (bet he wouldn’t). One seemed to be a soft No, “I might vote Yes if it wasn’t for that Alex Salmond”. the third looked like a SLAB voter with a few arguments to justify his position like how would we pay for the decommissioning of Torness.

      One guy claimed to have been playing golf recently with someone who knows an aide of Alex Salmond. He said that there was a rumour that a UK newspaper was going to drop a bombshell a month before the Referendum that Salmond is having an affair with a colleague of some sort. I said that it would have come out long before now if there was any truth in it.

    59. The Rough Bounds says:

      There is an awful lot of deep seated emotional baggage attached to the Union Flag. Korea, two World Wars, Empire, Olympic Games etc. Scots feel an emotional bond with it; it doesn’t mean they aren’t Scottish patriots.

      We have only really been seeing the St. Andrews Cross flag for the last thirty odd years. Before that it was always the Lion Rampant that was used to show your nationality. Back in the 60’s you could hardly get a saltire for love or money. They were as rare as hen’s teeth and the wee ones, paper or cloth, just didn’t exist at all.

      It is no contest to compare 300 years of emotional exposure to 30. I’m not surprised at the results.

    60. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew

      One of the Nos was a Tory who adored Margaret Thatcher and stated he would move to England if a Yes vote

      Does he not know folk are moving in the opposite direction in droves because of the “superior quality of life”?

    61. RogueCoder says:

      O/T but somebody mentioned it earlier – the BBC Radio Scotland John Beattie lunchtime piece discussing the Westminster Energy “report” can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03zdynp

      Professor Peter Strachan from Robert Gordon University annihilates yet another BT scare story. 43:25 if you want to skip past the pish the BT drone bleats out.

    62. Inbhir Anainn says:

      Sincere apologies for going O/T and the bearer of bad news, but it would appear there is an awful lot of work to be done in the Dumfriesshire area to win the hearts and minds of the young voters.

      Dumfriesshire MP David Mundell has welcomed resounding support for the No Campaign after the recent Independence debate held in Annan Academy. Representatives of both the Yes Campaign and Better Together, including the local MP presented their case to pupils and answered their questions.

      Following the debate the pupils then voted and the results were as follows:
      Yes – 90 (29.6%)
      No – 214 (70.4%)
      Spoiled Ballots – 4

    63. john king says:

      Square Haggis says
      “Neighbour just told me Alex Salmond was on TV last night backing away from Independence, apparently saying if not this time, next time type of thing.”

      I saw it Square Haggis, I wouldn’t get het up about it, he said “independence is inevitable” the inference one could have taken was “if not now, the next time” Alex was just being a politician and hedging his bets.

    64. RogueCoder says:

      @john king et al

      Aye, watched it last night – it’s in a series of videos taken from a single interview and posted on the WSJ site. Here’s a link to one of them (sorry about the American adverts), the others are in a related playlist.

      http://live.wsj.com/video/scotland-looks-to-collaborate-with-northern-england/

      It’s Alec being the statesman that he is 🙂

    65. manandboy says:

      One guy claimed to have been playing golf recently with someone who knows an aide of Alex Salmond. He said that there was a rumour that a UK newspaper was going to drop a bombshell a month before the Referendum that Salmond is having an affair with a colleague of some sort. I said that it would have come out long before now if there was any truth in it.

      Alex Salmond might drop dead tomorrow through a massive heart attack. Will it change my vote. No way.

    66. john king says:

      Square Haggis (again)
      “Wording is everything and the guy next door will be getting a lugfae just presently.”

      Now you see that in a sentence is why we need independence, instead of (imperial measures) we already have our own measures which are much more descriptive, now what have we?
      a Lugfae
      a spinfae
      a haunfae
      a bucketfae
      an eyefae
      a gubfae
      a moothfae(see gubfae)
      a pocketfae
      a hoosefae
      dont hold back. 🙂

    67. jingly jangly says:

      Andrew Morton, Who gives a flying fck what one individual gets up to, however I do think its most unlikely but the dirty tricks dept will be trying everything to smear prominent YES politicians, and ever our own Rev!!!

      As Jim Sillars said, Alex Salmond is Mortal, Scotland is Immortal.

      I see YES Aberdeen have finished their campaign trailer, well done Rab and Team, now Rab maybe you can get on with my RC162 Replica?
      http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=384132351725589&set=a.384131845058973.1073741833.157760497696110&type=1&theater

      I know that this trailer was basically scrap when they started so amazing work guys, enjoy the conference over the weekend.

    68. rab_the_doubter says:

      Anyone seen the trailer for BBC Scotland’s ‘Referendum Connections’ – I must be getting paranoid, but the second the voiceover mentions ‘standing on people’ the first pictures that pop up are Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. Accident? – I don’t think so.

    69. manandboy says:

      Inbhir Anainn says:
      9 April, 2014 at 6:41 pmSincere apologies for going O/T and the bearer of bad news, but it would appear there is an awful lot of work to be done in the Dumfriesshire area to win the hearts and minds of the young voters.

      Dumfriesshire MP David Mundell has welcomed resounding support for the No Campaign after the recent Independence debate held in Annan Academy.
      ____________________________________

      Tory heartland – I wouldn’t worry about it.

    70. john king says:

      Inbihir Anainn says
      “Following the debate the pupils then voted and the results were as follows:
      Yes – 90 (29.6%)
      No – 214 (70.4%)
      Spoiled Ballots – 4”

      Sorry, had to read that twice I thought it read SPOILED BRATS
      🙁

    71. john king says:

      James Kelly say
      “He’s talking about the SNP and Plaid Cymru benches, naturally.”

      Come off it, anyone who claims to be able to speak welsh is not to be trusted 🙂

    72. Mary Bruce says:

      @inbhir anainn: hey, that’s progress- the school debate at Thornhill in Dumfriesshire a few months ago was 24% yes… we’re getting there!

    73. Jimsie says:

      I’m not at all surprised at the weird results when you ask people to vote on flags. A lot of people find jingoistic flag waving a complete turn off.

      I feel that when Scotland becomes independent and progresses to being a republic, the saltire will have to go and be replaced by a tricolour representing liberty,equality and fraternity. What colours would be used I would not speculate on.

    74. Croompenstein says:

      @inbhir anainn – Who the f*ck was debating for yes! Steven Seagull?

    75. Tamson says:

      The idea of papers running a smear story on Salmond to stop the Yes campaign just shows how primitive the British Establishment mindset is: they haven’t evolved beyond their obsession with Parnell or the Zinoviev Letter.

    76. john king says:

      Cactus says
      “Allow me:

      The Doors ~ People Are Strange”

      OK
      I’ve got to admit it I thought anyone who sticks their name on a cowboy hat (ESPECIALLY IF ITS BETTER THAN MINE) has to be suss,
      but if your going to start quoting Jim Morrison your accepted (but only under sufferance mind) and do something about that taller, younger ,and better looking than me thing 🙁

    77. caz-m says:

      YES Aberdeen Trailer, what?

      That reminds me. I got onto my local YES campaign manager, to see if he would stump up the money for a fold away table.

      We’re no nicknamed “Clydebuilt” fur nothing.

      Trailers urr furr wimps, he says.

      Vote YES.

    78. john king says:

      Croompenstein @inbhir anainn – Who the f*ck was debating for yes! Steven Seagull?”

      Cumon cumon dont be daft, you know you wouldn’t get Steven Seagull out of a f**k**g tapas bar before 2am
      Aw the weans would be in thir beds 🙂

    79. Kate says:

      I really just do not get my fellow countrymen & women, if shown a FLAG they would choose the UNIONIST to their own countries? Are we really winning this? Cause from day to day I am UP & then DOWN, & Those downs I just can not tolerate any longer.

      Kate

    80. SquareHaggis says:

      @John King

      Brilliant stuff, now time for a cuppae.

      @Jingly, now you’ve done it, mentioning JS will surely bring a visit flying visit from the Seagull 🙁

    81. tartanpigsy says:

      OK, here goes, admittedly I could be on shaky ground in this thread, not considering myself to be in any way jingoistic,

      but the Yes Saltire campaign is needing a teatime boost.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/10-000-flags-for-yes–11/x/2353157

      To anyone who’s already donated thanks a lot. You can still help by tweeting, sharing on FB and telling anyone who might want to add to the pot.

    82. caz-m says:

      Wee bit O/T

      Latest odds on Oddschecker is as low as 5/2 Yes win,

      and Over 55% is now down to 9/2.

      Get your money on, it will be evens before you know it.

      http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome

    83. john king says:

      Handclapping says
      “Well that is the end of the “Braveheart” hypothesis”

      Djya think? 🙁

    84. caz-m says:

      @tartanpigsy

      Already bought one of your flags and waiting on delivery.
      TA!

    85. galamcennalath says:

      @Kate

      I totally agree with you. I personally can’t understand a lot (most?) of my fellow Scots sometimes. Why doesn’t Yes have 80% support? What is wrong with this country and it’s people? Can be very depressing. But there is hope!

      The flag business is easier to understand. The ‘question’ has to be seen in the context of all the other previous questions relating to all sorts of emotive issues. All sorts of people will choose the UK flag because both have so much baggage.

    86. john king says:

      Faltdubh says
      “He is very wary of independence, I’ve tried numerous times to tell of this site, Newsnet, Bella, Nat Col etc plus McCrone and my own arguments( the usual – no weapons, wars, and a chance to build a bright future). Still, he’s very cautious, but says he will consider it.”

      He’s no different from the numerous “lurkers” (I hate that word,)
      who think their opinion does not matter because they have difficulty in expressing themselves, I find this very depressing,

      there is no such thing as an invalid opinion,
      why don’t you try to persuade him to come on wings and you KNOW he’ll be listened to, and cogent arguments put to bring him round,

    87. john king says:

      comma D-oh.

    88. alexicon says:

      An excellent read, we’ll worth sharing.

      http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/706468703?-24564:11365

    89. X_Sticks says:

      O/T

      @jingly jangly

      I see the cat’s out the bag regarding the secret project I’ve been helping Rab with:

      https://twitter.com/YesAberdeen

    90. john king says:

      Crisiscult says
      ” My wife is Russian/Ukrainian”

      OK who did I speak to in George Square on Saturday then?
      who was female and said she didn’t feel able to come to the Counting House, I could have sworn she said her name was crisiscult, suffering from hangover possibly?(me not her) sorry to whoever you were in Glasgow on Saturday.

    91. liz says:

      Re AS having an ‘affair’ – his life will have been gone over with a fine tooth comb by MI5/6 and let’s face it who of any of us could withstand that scrutiny.

      If they can’t find anything they will manufacture it.

      Also I have heard anecdotally of a few DKs/ soft Nos that they will abstain if the vote is seen to be heading in one direction or another which they disagree with.

      This is particularly true of women as believe it or not when I was a student – many moons ago – a friend of mine who was smart, well educated etc – said, to my incredulity, if she got married she would have to take on the religion of her husband.

      Go figure – people are strange.

    92. Thepnr says:

      @Kate

      There’s no doubt we all get down as the negativity goes up! I’ve found though that after a few days or week of the barrage someone in their camp usually puts their foot in it and our mood lightens. 🙂

      As much as Project Fear is aimed at scaring the ordinary voter into voting No, it is also a weapon designed to discourage the more active Yes supporter. A mild form of brainwashing. Just ignore the f£eckers as I do or even better is to laugh at them.

      You’ll have noticed by now their repertoire is very limited so the same old stories are washed, spun and recycled. It is all they have left, take heart from that.

    93. jingly jangly says:

      X_Sticks

      Its braw, I’m wanting it for hospitality for my Classic Motorcycle Race team after we win this Referendum!!

    94. tartanpigsy says:

      @caz-m

      dinnae sit by the door waiting, end of May they’ll be here.

      And one more thing, they’re not my flags,
      they’re everyone’s 🙂

    95. Adam Jeal says:

      @Inbhir Anainn

      As someone living in D&G, that Annan Academy poll was utterly depressing. Why do so many young people seem inclined to be that conservative and regressive?

    96. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Jimsie, have to disagree about replacing the Saltire. As one of the oldest flags of one of the oldest countries in the world, I would say to replace it would be an act of folly.

      OT; came back from Dornie today and climbed the road to Bunloin to pay my respects to Willie Macrae. Asassinated 25 years ago on the 6th April. A Scottish Patriot.

    97. Robert Peffers says:

      Can I just point out the actual truth that the Union Flag, (A jack is a small flag that flies on a ship’s Jack Staff) is the flag of, “ The United Kingdom? There is no such thing as a flag of Britain. Which is why I will not only remain British after Scottish independence and will also continue to be proud to be Scottiah and British but be Very, Very Glad NOT to be a United Kingdom Citizen.

    98. gordoz says:

      Glasgow Clyde College Students back YES vote

      – 44.25% backing a Yes vote
      – 39.25% backing a No vote
      – 16.5% undecided

      Great win for YES students on campus !

      Surprisingly high number of No’s indicate those students would be happy to pay tuition fees; or have No been saying there will be No fees if they win ? WTF is going on ?

    99. K1 says:

      @Croompenstein…”Who the f*ck was debating for yes! Steven Seagull?”…tea spurted…everywhere…lol

    100. crisiscult says:

      @John king says

      well it wasn’t me, but I’m just away to question the wife on her whereabouts last Saturday, considering I thought she’d gone to bed with a headache! Note to self: get locks for the windows.

      On a more serious note, doesn’t it ever annoy people when they get told they’re ‘supposed’ to share their nationalism? I apply this to both sides, but I’m pleased to say that the pro independence groups are probably 90% inclusive, non nationalist, whereas the only thing I ever hear from anti independence supporters is about strength of the union, pride in achievements, and other such stuff that I can assure you won’t put food on the table and won’t keep me warm while westminster politicians worry about how they can get all their heating paid for from my tax money.

    101. Jimsie says:

      Alan Mackintosh

      The saltire is a Christian flag and Scotland is now a secular country. Of course I understand the importance of Christianity in our history but it simply is not relevant anymore.

      Most modern states which become republics opt for a tricolour given that the three tenets of republicanism are represented. Of course it is not a topical debate as Scotland still has to achieve statehood before considering republicanism.

      I do respect your view and ask that you respect mine. Meantime we can campaign for a YES vote.

    102. SquareHaggis says:

      @Alexicon,

      Now that’s an inspiring article.
      Needs to be shared far and wide.
      Great find.

    103. @mary Bruce

      Im English but have lived in Scotland since 1990(just in time for the bloody poll tax!)

      I would vote for the saltire any day as I feel more like a scot than English,and when I left my hometown Margate the union jack meant the BNP or NF to me.

      Racism was bad then and not much has changed,just its the polish who get it now instead of Indian and Pakistani families.

      I still see that flag as the flag of hate or injustice.

    104. Adam Jeal says:

      @gordoz

      That’s not the only college/uni/school poll where the No vote has been quite high, even though the yes vote has come through.

      It makes me want to ask ‘WTF is it with a lot of younger folk?’

    105. HandandShrimp says:

      I take it with Robertson, Ed Davey and today’s scare de jour from NIESR about Scotland being too wee, too poor and too stupid or something(commissioned by Vince Cable’s BIS department again), that Better Together have decided to say screw changing horses mid stream let’s stick with the nag we know.

    106. HandandShrimp says:

      gordoz

      It is a good result at Clyde College. After a slightly wobbly start at Glasgow Uni last year I think by and large the student vote is moving over to Yes and a few schools have started to have votes showing a swing to Yes too…not Annan though 🙂

      On the 16/17 thing, there is a tendency for a degree of pressure in the schools depending on the lean of the school management team. Fortunately we will have the summer to get the Yes message on a level playing field.

    107. Marcia says:

      Thepnr

      ‘You’ll have noticed by now their repertoire is very limited so the same old stories are washed, spun and recycled. It is all they have left, take heart from that.’

      As the scare stories get recycled they start to fade.

    108. Thepnr says:

      @HandandShrimp

      The nag they have all backed is a loser. They are losers, well matched. Ian Brotherhood’s bet with the raffle money is a winner. We are winners!

    109. Onwards says:

      I think this reflects the confusion between the UK and Britain, because the union jack can represent both.

      Plenty of people will vote YES, but they aren’t anti-British, they are against the political set-up of the UK.
      The geographical and social Britain will still exist.

      People here will still watch and appear on shows like Britains got talent, British bake-off etc

      It is more inclusive to appeal to those who want an independent Scotland AND a ‘better’ Britain – made up of politically equal nations.

      We are not breaking up Britain, we are improving it.

    110. Tex says:

      I think the 5% swing from yes to no may well have been English Yes voters living in Scotland

    111. Thepnr says:

      O/T Ms Curran states:

      “The leaders of our island councils have made a strong case for why their communities should have more control over the decisions that affect their lives. Devolution was never intended to concentrate power in Edinburgh – we need more power passed to communities across Scotland.

      “Labour would put more power in the hands of Scotland’s island communities. This will include power to develop renewable energy resources, to tackle unemployment, to take more control of economic development and to give the maximum possible power over the Crown Estates.”

      Devo Nano+ for the islands, hypocrite.

      http://archive.is/XQX8F

    112. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Jimsie, my understanding is the flag originated from a battle twixt the Picts/Scots and the Angles. A cross appeared in the sky and was taken as an omen by the Picts/Scots. Thus the Saltire dates from 830 odd and thus the oldest flag. I acknowledge your point and your reasoning, but would prefer to hang on to it. Its Christian connotations are secondary I would venture.

      Onwards to YES

    113. Jimsie says:

      Alan Mackintosh

      Ok Alan, can we call this a score draw?

    114. CameronB says:

      HandandShrimp
      Better Together are a one trick pony. They don’t have a choice. 🙂

    115. scottish_skier says:

      As a lapsed Jedi I have no religious issues with the saltire.

    116. Taranaich says:

      @Jimsie: I feel that when Scotland becomes independent and progresses to being a republic, the saltire will have to go and be replaced by a tricolour representing liberty,equality and fraternity…

      … The saltire is a Christian flag and Scotland is now a secular country. Of course I understand the importance of Christianity in our history but it simply is not relevant anymore.

      I disagree with this on a number of levels (largely because I’ve never been a fan of the Republican tricolor convention for flags) though agree it’ll be a good subject for future debate.

    117. Jim T says:

      I’ve posted this link a while ago, but it might stand another go, based on the brief discussion above on the meaning of “British”

      It’s 5 minutes well spent if you have any confusion over the terms used in current territorial debates.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

      Apologies Stu if this embeds – feel free (I know you will :-)) to delete if it does.

    118. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Jimsie, Aye. There is only one thing which needs to be won.

    119. Garry Hendeson says:

      I like the Saltire wherever it came from. I’m not too bothered about being called a Nationalist as I think this is used as a derogatory term and we can always use Patriot to gain the same but less negative manner.

      It’s all about democracy for me and once Scotland prove there is life after Westminster and a better one I hope, then I see other parts of rUK looking for change pretty soon afterwards.

    120. Morag says:

      @Jingly, now you’ve done it, mentioning JS will surely bring a visit flying visit from the Seagull 🙁

      No it won’t. *evil cackle*

    121. Garry Hendeson says:

      Manner/meaning

    122. CameronB says:

      Segull defense strategy – gather around and smother with love. 🙂

    123. Morag says:

      Seagull protection strategy – clype.

    124. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RogueCoder says:
      9 April, 2014 at 6:41 pm

      O/T but somebody mentioned it earlier – the BBC Radio Scotland John Beattie lunchtime piece discussing the Westminster Energy “report” can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03zdynp

      Hi RogueCoder.
      Just listened to that sequence, which I was alerted to by the “Eu Citizens for an Independent Scotland” Facebook page.

      What’s the chances of that wee sequence being reported about on “national” BBC Scotland? Will it just be corralled inside “BBC Radio Scotland Highlands and Islands only”?

    125. morgan mc says:

      Funny:No such ire when the Saltire is placed beside the EU national flag that the SNP and the Westminster bubble bow the knee too.

    126. Bill C says:

      o/t sorry, new Survation Scottish poll coming out overnight.

    127. RogueCoder says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon
      What’s the chances of that wee sequence being reported about on “national” BBC Scotland?

      Oh absolutely bugger all.

      I did a google for it around 8pm and was surprised to find Google returned ZERO results. Google rarely does that – but it appears the MSM don’t think that facts are important when reporting the “news”. Actually I’m not surprised at that, but I thought the blogs would have lapped it up.

      I’ll just do another wee Google…. nope, still zero results.

      NOT ONE PAPER, NOT ONE TV CHANNEL picked up Professor Strachan’s dismissal of the Westminster energy report as total bunkum. They were all too busy running fear stories for Bitter Together to let the facts get in the way.

      And yet still we close the gap 🙂

      On a bit of a tangent, but I was originally going to ask this before responding to Brian; expected to have to wade through the usual torrent of bile and bluster on the social networks tonight, but I can’t find any of the usual BT suspects. Not one.

      Did they all just take an unscheduled holiday?

    128. indigo says:

      Re the Dumfriesshire voting, remember that people in Annan are more likely to be employed, do their supermarket shop, visit a dentist and socialise in England rather than Scotland, they will also receive English radio (Cfm), BBC Look North tv and Border tv and are more likely to read the Cumberland News than any of the Scottish papers.

      Of those who are employed inScotland a good percentage will have been employed at Chapelcross and now be facing redundancy, with their local police control centre he first in Scotland to be shut down because, it appears, votes here don’t matter. Many in Dumfriesshire communities, particularly Annan, will almost certainly feel that they have seen little or no benefit from the scottish parliament and that indeed SNP policies have lessened their employment prospects. And they would probably be right.

      Nevertheless in this referendum every vote here matters just as much as anywhere else in Scotland. It is perhaps an opportunity to reconnect these communities with their sense of Scottishness. I sincerely hope we see a Yes vote surge here, I’d love to see events and gatherings at Gretna for example, but for many of us down here Scotland can actually seem quite removed from day to day life.

    129. ramstam says:

      Wrong colour used for the saltire! This might have skewed your poll outcome. Scottish Parliament ruled some years ago that the Scottish flag should be azure ie light blue and not the navy in the wings poll.

    130. Oneironaut says:

      I really gotta stop reading polls and articles about polls…

      Nothing better to ruin my day.
      (Except being woken up early by telesales callers, that can ruin it even worse!)

    131. HandandShrimp says:

      The Survation poll appears to be for the Daily Record, Better Nation and 5 million Questions…possibly. I’m not good with tweets.

    132. Robert Peffers says:

      @ramstam: “Wrong colour used for the saltire! This might have skewed your poll outcome”.</i

      Nah! All flags are just bits of coloured cloth. Their significance is what they represent in the minds of the citizens of the country whose flag it is.

    133. rab_the_doubter says:

      I didn’t have high hopes for it but to be honest, it didn’t even reach that level. The BBC’s Referendum Connections program was a disgrace.

      I know it was supposed to be a light hearted look at the figures in the debate but it was more of a poorly disguised attack on Alex Salmond with brief interludes telling us how great Lamont, Darling and Carmichael are at their jobs.

      One of the more obvious slurs was the constant reference to Alex Salmonds support when being selected as SNP leader as ‘the young team’ a phrase i would more usually associate with nasty violent little ned gangs.

      Definitely not even handed.

    134. Cactus says:

      @Jim T 18:26 – Thanks for the info on adding links, explained perfectly. It’s very reassuring how everybuddy helps each other out on here 🙂

      @John King 19:29 – Cheers JK, maybe wear yours to the next Wings get-together (which I understand is being planned for Edinburgh), I may even bring a guitar along 🙂

      Infact, it would be good if we could hold a few other meet ups in Scotland’s other major cities, once a month, prior to our referendum.. I’m mobile and committed.

    135. Tîm Criced i Gymru says:

      @John King @ 7.07pm
      Dydi hynny ddim yn deg! (That’s not fair!)

    136. The Man in the Jar says:

      Anyone wanting to take away my saltire will have to prize it from my cold dead fingers.

    137. Tam Jardine says:

      Jimsie

      I thought the success of the saltire in recent years and the obscurity of the lion rampant speaks volumes about where we are heading flag wise and constitutionally. But these matters are for the future and for future parliament to consider and put to the people. I canny see anything, after this long struggle, changing the saltire for me or the majority.

      Meanwhile Ed Davy is on point doing his duty and lying through his teeth. I love how they have discredited themselves to the extent that no sane person believes them… and the experts like Chris Goodall being interviewed by Gordon Brewer DESTROYING wavy Davy’s case. Kate mentioned earlier about being up and down and I feel that also. Every time one of these industry experts or academics appears on bbc/stv and takes the scaremongering apart I take succour because it reminds me that we are right.

      The no campaign could conceivably make a good, solid point for a No vote (if such a thing existed) and the impact would be greatly diminished by the fact that their credibility is completely shot. It’s another reason we are going to win.

      News night Scotland finishes with the Scotsman and Telegraph front pages with the energy scare stories that have just been ridiculed and dismantled by Mr Goodall. Gordon Brewer must be able to do some strange mental somersaults to be able to close with pure propaganda after exposing the story as such.

    138. Andrew Morton says:

      Attended a Yes Scotland meeting in North Merchiston, Edinburgh this evening. Capacity attendance of about 100. I’d guess 90% Yes, 10% undecided and one Bitter Together troll/infiltrator.

      Speakers were:

      Professor Owen Dudley Edwards (Edinburgh University)

      Jil Murphy (Business for Scotland)

      Zara Kitson (Environmental activist)

      Tommy Sheppard (Former Assistant Gen Sec. Scottish Labour Party) who was MC.

      Tommy Sheppard was an excellent public speaker, the others were of variable quality (Jill had never spoken in public before and therefore read out a written speech).

      Some good questions, but a Better Together activist tried to disrupt the meeting by claiming at the top of his voice that Scotland had the highest deficit of any country in the world. When the panel attempted to deal with his ‘question’ he continued to shout over them. Later on in the Q&A he raised the same question once more, again in a very ‘shouty’ way. When a member of the audience tried to answer him using the GERS figures he shuoted over the top of him and Tommy Sheppard said that it was obvious he was trying to disrupt the meeting and that if he ddn’t pipe down, he would have him ejected.

      The best contribution came from a Zimbabwean gentleman who stated that he had lived in Scotland for forty years and couldn’t understand what this was all about. Of course we should be an independent country, why would we be in any doubt? He compared the Union with the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and pointed out that the Federation was dissolved without any problem at all. We had to ask ourselves why was Westminster so desperate to hang on to Scotland? It was noticeable that the audience were very receptive towards him and nodded and smiled as he spoke. When he finished got sustained applause from the whole audience (except our Better Together friend.

      It was obvious that very little of the stuff we take for granted like GERS, etc. was known to the bulk of the audience, in fact when one person referred to GERS the MC had to ask the audience what GERS stood for (I put him right).

      The whole event was filmed by ITN for a piece they’re putting out at the SNP conference.

    139. caz-m says:

      FAO Rev

      Would you consider inviting Professor Peter Strachan of Robert Gordon University Aberdeen to do a piece on Wings regarding Energy in an Independent Scotland.

      He has been getting glowing reports all day on the media and it would help rebut the negative stories coming out of Westminster. Professor Strachan link,

      http://www.rgu.ac.uk/dmstaff/strachan-peter

    140. Mark says:

      I’m not sure it’s all that odd. As a Briton but non-Scot who will be voting Yes, my identity is more closely allied to the union flag than it is to the Saltire. And there are quite a lot of us Britons who live in Scotland but aren’t Scots who are voting Yes. We are that -5!

    141. caz-m says:

      @Tam Jardine

      Did you notice how the amount it would cost every Scot if we voted YES, varied from £38 to £189.

      Then the Scotsman headlines for tomorrow has it at £200.

      Any advance on £200?

      And why are these experts that talk some sense not allowed onto BBC Scotland programmes until most people have gone to bed??

    142. Grouse Beater says:

      New (ish) head of Creative Scotland, the agency that paid an advertising company £200,000 to devise a logo – rather than a £25,000 competition prize to Scottish-based graphic artists – and got a grey square and circle for its money, now stumbling badly in television interview on Scotland Tonight trying to explain her agency’s revised policy for the arts. Strangely inarticulate.

    143. caz-m says:

      Anyone know of Survation poll that is out.

    144. Grouse Beater says:

      The best contribution came from a Zimbabwean gentleman who stated that he had lived in Scotland for forty years and couldn’t understand what this was all about. Of course we should be an independent country, why would we be in any doubt?

      Aye, it takes an outsider to see the obvious…

      A Better Together activist tried to disrupt the meeting by claiming at the top of his voice that Scotland had the highest deficit of any country in the world.

      …and an insider who can’t see the truth.

    145. Cactus says:

      As today is nearly done, here’s another one for all you independence rockers, enjoy..

      Boston ~ Foreplay/Long Time (Genre: Classic Rock)
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViT280pfwyc

    146. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      Rev,
      that flag question is obviously biased. Do you not see the resemblance between the ballot X and the Scottish Flag? It must have confused some people.

      Hi Ally,
      Have to agree with you on the Saltire. I think is it a great flag and has an ancient history from the Battle of Athelstaneford. It is really distinctive when compared with other flags and no doubt there will be a few of these on show in Brazil even if our footballers will not be there.

      The independent state of Embo in the late eighties had a tricolour of red, yellow and blue so it is not quite the same. I think it is registered formally but it looks like the flag from Chad – just reversed. There are just too many of these types of flags.

      I also quite like the Scandinavian flags plus some of the Scottish Island have their versions as well. Shetland, Orkney, Barra and South Uist.

      However, I have never liked the Union Flag as it think it is a bit of a mess aesthetically.

      Also the ex empire flags with a red or blue ensign “defaced” are also a bit odd.

      I do like the NZ idea of having the silver fern flag on a black ground. That would be great and would be as distinctive as the Canadian maple flag. Better than a red defaced red/blue ensign with the Union flag on the canton.

      If we get Independence then a few other will also look at having a new flag.

      End of the Empire.

    147. David Smith says:

      Annan is a bit of a funny spot and to be fair, over the last 100 years, most of the major employment there was provided by the British state. The notion of Scotland seeming a bit distant is also pretty valid and I don’t generally feel like I’m back home until I’m past Annan and heading for Dumfries.
      Young folks round abouts tend not to have massively high expectations about much which probably explains why they think Carlisle is a good place to come to for a night out.Rangers also seem very popular in these parts!
      I’m looking forward to seeing them get something better to look forward to when they have a country that actually cares about them.

    148. Kirsty says:

      Jesus guys, will you just leave the Saltire alone, please?! I’m happy to put up with a lot of things in order that we gain independence; e.g. imagined loss of pensions, banks, currency and expulsion from NATO/The EU/Humanity itself but taking my flag off me is just going too far! Even Westminster haven’t threatened us with that one – cheers for giving them ideas!

    149. CameronB says:

      Grouse Beater
      Sorry, I do hate to be contradictory, but branding can be a complex process. That £200k will cover quite a bit of work and how do you encapsulate and portray creativity?

      You don’t always get best results using crayons. 🙂

    150. Tam Jardine says:

      Caz-m

      It’s just bullshit of course, but with a compliant press why not suggest £500 or £1000 more? The figures themselves are immaterial… it would take nostradamus to predict what the energy companies will decide between themselves. Does anyone seriously believe a No vote is a vote for low energy costs in the future? Anyone who thinks that should be examined by a professional.

      I am sure this is the second or third orbit of energy scaremongering and there will be further orbits. More alert wings readers will be able to remind me what the last figure plucked out of the air to scare people was. If you repeat a word again and again it finally loses all meaning and this is what guys like Davy are doing.

      When he glossed over Fergus Ewing’s bulletproof reminder of the projects we are subsidising down south he had no answer but a flat lie that their ultra massaged figures had factored everything in.

      Guys like Ed Davy don’t care though. They lose this and he’s done his bit, carried a bit of water and taken his turn on the BT day return gig. At least he approaches it with all the enthusiasm and confidence of a mere obligation unlike George Robertson and his hawkish crusade. It makes me dislike him less.

      You mention the timing of the experts- the environmental expert Chris Goodall who scored so many clean blows tonight, just like the economics expert last night on same program would not feature on bbc reporting scotland in a million years.

      As far as I can tell some of the best bbc pieces have been on news night scotland but even running the odd impartial interview after 11 is too close to a level playing field so it’s being taken out the back and shot.

    151. CameronB says:

      Grouse Beater
      £200k might be a bit steep though. 😉

    152. Davie Park says:

      Dr. Paul J. Carnegie analyses the cultural cringe;

      http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/09/can-scotland-speak/#.U0W5lYLcDhs.facebook

    153. call me dave says:

      Scotsman:

      THE disgraced politician Jim ­Devine was yesterday ordered to pay his former office manager £17,816 in damages after a judge ruled that he had defamed her.

      Devine was successfully sued by Marion Kinley after the former Labour MP falsely claimed she was under police investigation and helped herself to money that she was not entitled to.

      In a written judgment issued at the Court of Session yesterday, Lord Bannatyne found in Ms Kinley’s favour when he considered evidence produced at a hearing earlier this year.

    154. Grouse Beater says:

      You don’t always get best results using crayons.

      People are advertising executives because they were never good enough to be an artist. Not even a bad one. They sell things, other people’s things.

    155. Doug says:

      Looks like somebody has done their homework.

      http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/09/continental-drift/

    156. john king says:

      Marcia says
      “As the scare stories get recycled they start to fade.”

      Maybe they should switch to YES it great for cool receptions, and the colours remain as bright as the day you said YES!

      CameronB says
      “Better Together are a one trick pony. They don’t have a choice. 🙂

      Can we see the trick can we, let us see the trick please please please,let us see the ponies trick. :0

      Tim Criced i Gymru says
      “Dydi hynny ddim yn deg!”

      ydy mae. 🙂

      Dr JM MacIntosh says
      “Have to agree with you on the Saltire. I think is it a great flag and has an ancient history from the Battle of Athelstaneford. It is really distinctive when compared with other flags”

      Is that the same battle where the guy stood on a thistle and yelled in pain waking up the defending army, making the thistle the national flower of Scotland ,or am I talking rubbish?

      David Smith says
      “The notion of Scotland seeming a bit distant is also pretty valid and I don’t generally feel like I’m back home until I’m past Annan and heading for Dumfries.”

      I totally get what you mean David,
      years ago I used to work away from from home for a month at a time and driving north from places like London, Bath, Norwich was always a great buzz and even though Im a Fifer the site if the towers at Ravenscraig always made me fell like I’m finally home, I was distraught the day they were blown up, and I still bitter at the decision
      made to close Scotland’s Steel industry which was nothing more that political vandalism and a naked attempt to emasculate and subdue Scotland.

    157. aldo_macb says:

      Daily Record opinion poll today with yes 44% no 56%. One month ago they were showing 45/55. Not sure if the methods are the same in both polls. I’m sure Prof Curtice will have his usual analysis.

    158. Michael says:

      That’s a no change poll.

    159. john king says:

      Just filled in a yougov poll on independence.

    160. Tattie-bogle says:

      Think i may have embedded a link but google polls house of cards and it tells you all you need to know about polsters

    161. john king says:

      Just reread my reply to David Smith, forgive me, I still not learn English good!

    162. bunter says:

      Just saw a post showing an apology/correction in todays hootsmon regards their treatment of Wings Panelbase poll the other day.

      There’s nowhere to hide these days for those who would twist facts and lie.

    163. Doug Daniel says:

      Inbhir Anainn:

      Dumfriesshire MP David Mundell has welcomed resounding support for the No Campaign after the recent Independence debate held in Annan Academy. Representatives of both the Yes Campaign and Better Together, including the local MP presented their case to pupils and answered their questions.

      Following the debate the pupils then voted and the results were as follows:
      Yes – 90 (29.6%)
      No – 214 (70.4%)
      Spoiled Ballots – 4

      Things to keep in mind here:
      1. This is the one constituency in Scotland that has a Tory MP
      2. Post-debate votes are pretty meaningless unless there is a pre-debate vote to compare it to, since the point of a debate is to change people’s opinion
      3. This is the one constituency in Scotland that has a Tory MP
      4. Annan Academy may be situated in a particularly well-to-do area of town and not represent a varied cross-section of society
      5. This is the one constituency in Scotland that has a Tory MP

    164. scottish_skier says:

      That’s a no change poll.

      More specifically it’s a ‘no clear change within MoE’. Both could have changed but sampling variation means it’s not seen.

    165. Grouse Beater says:

      Looks like somebody has done their homework.

      Excellent essay, Doug. Can’t fault it. Many thanks.

    166. Grouse Beater says:

      The Jack – called “Union” Jack when flown on ships at port – is an aesthetic mess.

      Stickng many flags, one upon another, causes blunt angles, poor composition, and design oddities.

      Those who try to reproduce it free hand usually get it wrong. Frequently it is flown upside down even by army types. As an iconic image it is a failure, the Stars and Stripes a better example of abstract graphics.

    167. Fudgefase says:

      Sorry if I’m a fuddy duddy, but I do think you should be able to read in order to vote.

    168. MajorBloodnok says:

      scottish_skier says: As a lapsed Jedi I have no religious issues with the saltire.

      Yes, I see the saltire as two crossed light-sabres too (or aternatively X-wing vapour trails crossing in the sky), whereas the Union flag reminds me of the Death Star exploding after it gets a photon torpedo up its tailpipe.

    169. scottish_skier says:

      RE the record poll. The EU election numbers will be of most interest.

      UK-wide polls show UKIP are on course to take first or second place with the combined UKIP-Tory vote over 50% (definitely this in England). No UKIP MEPs in Scotland though and polls to date indicate the SNP could take 50% of Scottish MEPs by winning +1 from the Libs.

      If people want polls to shift quickly to Yes rather than the slow but steady, solid upwards trend we are seeing, they need to wait a month. May will show Scotland its rabid right-wing driven union future should it vote No. Ed of course will be forced to pander to the UKIP vote further too – they are stealing votes from Labour more than the Tories right now.

    170. call me dave says:

      Our Prof Strachan who punctured Ed Davey’s balloon on his energy scare yesterday manages a cursory mention in the Scotsman.

      Also Business for Scotland blog had some stuff earlier in the week on progress for inter-connectors.

      http://archive.is/OBFgZ

    171. GrabTheThistle says:

      10 April, 2014 at 12:28 am
      Are BBC Scotland using trainee reporter on ENERGY Report!
      Surely must have Science degree! or an Economics degree! or an English degree! NO,NO,NO. Has she even got BA degree! NO. Scotland and Glasgow are full of unemployed Scots but BBC parachute in a unqualified Londoner at great cost, to broadcast to the Scots on Scots affairs! Reminds me of Nazi and Boer apartheid. I’d be better at it. I’d lift story from Google to.
      ===========================================================
      On BBC NewsNight Scotland: Gordon Brewer – Wed.9/4/14
      Better Together’s Ed Davey MP Energy Scare piece by BBC cub Reporter Emma Ailes( JTS 2013 intake)
      —————————
      JOURNALISM TRAINEE SCHEME(JTS)
      “We get a month where we can go anywhere in the BBC.”

      Entry criteria is open to people with a qualification in broadcast journalism, but is by NO MEANS a requirement.

      In its 8th.YEAR the BBC’s Journalism Trainee Scheme(JTS) is year’s PAID WORK as TRAINEE in UK newsrooms and work in the world’s greatest broadcasting organisation.

      Most previous trainees still works in the BBC! Previous trainees are BBC Director Generals MARK THOMPSON, TONY HALL, news presenter HUW EDWARDS, Radio2 presenter JEREMY VINE!

      1year contract pay £19k(non-London), £23k (including London weighting). Plus some travel, accommodation expenses.

      First-class training – at BBC’s College of Journalism.
      For JTS you need to be an avid follower of news. You read local and national newspapers, watch television and radio listener.

      University degree is not compulsory – talent, potential and determination count for more than an academic background.

      BBC is committed to diversity and if disabled, the BBC Access Unit can help with the necessary adjustments.

      Specialist JTS traineeship in Politics, Public Policy, based at BBC Political Programmes unit at Millbank, London!

      You can find out more about JTS with BBC ACADEMY!
      ===========================================================
      This is whats wrong with BBC, 2nd rate junior trainee unskilled unqualified reporters. Think I spotted another standing in for BBC Economy Editor Douglas Fraser! Now you have your eye in, spot even more BBC London cubs reporting on the Scots to the Scots.

      BBC JOURNALISM TRAINEE SCHEME( JTS ) has been going 8year, consequently exactly when Director General Mark Thompson, Blair’s Labour Troll took over!

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/careers/trainee-schemes/jts
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/careers/trainee-schemes/jts-emma-ailes

    172. scottish_skier says:

      RE EU elections.

      http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/european-elections

      This is a pro-union nightmare of epic proportions. Figures already looking very high for UKIP and they normally get a boost on election day.

      Better Together won’t be able to hide this stinker in May, not with Farage the new poster boy south of the border.

      What changes VI the most of all? Is it scandals? Nope. Is it budgets? Nope. Is it specific policies? Nope. Is it election results? Yes.

    173. indigo says:

      @Doug Daniel

      Just to clarify, Annan Academy is the only secondary school within a broad geographic area, covering Gretna, Annan and all the rural villages around them, so it is fully representative of the area.

      That particular community is actually a Labour stronghold, with all the local Cllrs being Labour, many of whom work at Chapelcross. The Tory votes come, generally, from elsewhere in the constituency.

      It will be geography and an affilliation with Carlisle rather than any large Scottish town that will be determining the voting pattern here.

    174. Grouse Beater says:

      Sarah Smith made her entrance to our Referendum politics with a seriously clunky resumes for BBC Scotlandshire.

      She offered patronising, potted postcard biographies of the “Big Beasties,” as she insisted calling leading Scottish political figures.

      It had to be culled from the internet mixed around and some leaden jokes added to make it populist junk.

      Who is she aiming at? The hard of understand?

      Is this to be the standard?

    175. Marcia says:

      The Daily Record spin on the poll that they paid for:

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-blow-alex-salmond-record-3394387

      very minor change from the last Survation poll that showed a big increase for Yes.

    176. galamcennalath says:

      O/T Scotland’s agricultural future and prosperity is definitely secure ….

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-26955938

    177. Andrew Morton says:

      Interesting article in the Telegraph about solar power costs coming down

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/10755598/Global-solar-dominance-in-sight-as-science-trumps-fossil-fuels.html

      Also another good article about developments in power storage here

      http://www.graphenea.com/pages/graphene-supercapacitors#.U0ZUMCe9KK1

    178. Michael says:

      Re the Record report some people might say the Yes vote has ‘consolidated’ rather than ‘stalled’. I think it’s very encouraging that the Yes vote has been revealed again as in the region of 45%. Certainly doesn’t worry me.

    179. Marcia says:

      Michael,

      My thoughts too. I had wondered if the increase from the previous poll would be maintained and it appears to be, giving the margin of error in theses poll of + or – 3%. Wasn’t so long ago the newspapers were claiming that only 23% supported independence. 🙂

    180. Michael says:

      My fear was that we might see a fall in the Yes vote but we haven’t – if margin of error is taken into account. I don’t see that as anything but positive.

    181. ronnie anderson says:

      As with Aberdeen & Dumfries 16/17 olds should be bombarded with the Sutton Report on higher education as with the news reports ( students will be paying loans into their 50s ) or free Education in Independent Scotland.

      Rev, How about a crowdfund for Generation Yes, ( supplying leaflets transport costs ect ).

    182. HandandShrimp says:

      The Record spin on their poll is if nothing else amusing. Their last poll confirmed that Yes was indeed sitting around the 45/55 split in line with other polls. This one simple reinforces that and firmly kicks into touch whatever weird outlier there was last month (I can’t recall who did it) who had a 20% gap. So in a month where the three Better Together parties had their conferences, lots of publicity, Labour’s Devo Confused and a whole pile of usual BT negativity, all that has happened is that both Yes and No have fallen slightly and Don’t Know has gone up by 3%.

      In the last week we have had the Minister blowing the gaff on the currency union, Lord Robertson telling us that the world will end if we vote for independence and Vince Cable commissioning yet another Government report from NIESR to show that independence will destroy the economic space time continuum. Add this to the fact we are about to go into the SNP conference and it is their turn for the high visibility then I would have thought Yes should be quietly pleased. No would have loved a Yes votes slumps to 25% story.

      I may be too relaxed, I think that the Record poll shows that Yes has retained its gains and what has been a wild and turbulent month and the end of this month has shown definite chinks in the No armour. The Record spin seems to be an exercise in lip sticking the pig rather than a genuine analysis of the poll trends. However, they paid for it and they wrote the story they wanted to write to go along with it, regardless of the numbers.

    183. HorseBoy says:

      Its big YES for me.
      Who knew BBC has its own Academy and College of Journalism!
      Why and what a waste of my tax. BBC grew like topsy under BlairBrown Labour! BBC out of control. Today with Internet, Skype and Google we don’t need these huge American newsrooms. I get my news live and immediate online days before BBC. BBC again behind the curve. Sell and Sack the lot.

    184. Betty Boop says:

      @ Frazer Allan Whyte 5:29pm 9 April 2014

      Well said. I hope we can live up to those aspirations.

    185. Michael says:

      @HandandShrimp
      Completely agree, the Record spin was pretty desperate. If we’d seen a fall in our vote outwith the margin of error that would have been concerning. It shows our vote is holding firm in spite of the onslaught from the press and BBC. That’s very encouraging in my view. What we don’t want is to tear ahead at this stage – it wouldn’t be helpful to our campaign and in the long run might actually damage us.

    186. Robert Craig says:

      Exciting stuff…… @Michael – totally agree with everything you have said. Not that much more could be added to make the point you have made.

      I will say however that I wish rUK parties respected our rights in this debate and took a more truthful and positive spin on the future.

      Maybe then we can have a mature and healthy debate. Instead of the bile that is being strewn across our TV’s daily now.



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