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Out comes the whitewash

Posted on October 04, 2016 by

To be honest, readers, we gave up on taking any notice of David Torrance‘s mundane attempts at trolling in the Herald some time ago. But some alert readers pointed us towards this week’s column, suggesting that it was a bald rewriting of history some way beyond their usual bland irritancy.

This was the passage they objected to:

torranceequal

It’s a patronising piece of “shut up and eat your cereal” condescension for sure. But to be fair to Torrance, it does also happen to be true. Wait, not true. The other thing.

Torrance’s downplaying of Gordon Brown’s status is disingenuous in itself. Brown was undoubtedly the figurehead of the Union in the last days of the campaign, the architect of the Vow which became the foundation of the Scotland Act 2015 and to which David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband all literally signed their names.

vowequal

But if Torrance should maintain the fiction that Brown was a mere bit-part player, we can offer a few other “senior Unionists” who did talk of equal partnerships. We could start with no less a figure than the actual chair of the “Better Together” campaign himself, Alistair Darling, quoted on the BT website in November 2012:

darlingequals

He was far from the first. The same claim had previously been made by the woman who now proclaims herself the chief defender of the Union in Scotland, Ruth “No Surrender” Davidson, in her very first speech as Scottish Conservatives leader:

davidsonequal

And her Scottish Labour counterpart Johann Lamont was in full agreement when she gave a speech to her branch-office conference in 2013:

equallamont

But we can do better still than that. Readers, we present to you the current Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the Rt Hon Theresa May MP, speaking to the 2012 Tory conference about the Union in her capacity as Home Secretary:

tmayequal

They weren’t alone, of course. The media of which Torrance is a ubiquitous part made the same assertion regularly, such as in this Daily Express editorial from just two days before the referendum:

expressequal

But if the leader of the No campaign, the leaders of the Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Labour during the referendum and the current UK Prime Minister don’t count as senior enough Unionists for David Torrance, there seems little point in us searching for any other examples.

We look forward to the Herald’s correction.

.

.

[EDIT 10.44am]: Unbeknownst to us at the time of writing, alert Wings contributor Al Harron beat us to the punch on this one, and has several more examples here.

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    Out comes the whitewash | speymouth

409 to “Out comes the whitewash”

  1. Iain More says:

    No lie is too great for the British State lickspittle quizzers like Torrance.

  2. Betty Boop says:

    It has always been “sold” as an equal partnership despite the fact that it never actually worked out that way.

    Torrance never lets the truth creep into his drivel.

  3. paul miller says:

    So we’re not a union of equals? should we just eat our cereal? Lets be fair though, Torrance is just another cringing ‘Scot but’. Not many, if any country, has to put up so many of there own wanting to effectively see their own country extinguished…and for what? the queen? Brittania? ah, self fulfilment and acceptance by the British establishment?

  4. manandboy says:

    Excellent Stu. You have no equal, that’s for sure.

    Tory definition of equality – what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine.

  5. I can only assume that this hack was bullied at school.
    The Herald studiously avoids Davidson’s ‘thieves and vandals’ stand up routine in Birmingham. The Ministry of Truth. The Fourth Estate/Fifth column.
    The death rattle of the Dead Tree Scrolls and the BBC Stockade at Pacific Quay with its audience ratings of 5000, are on the last helicopter out of Hanoi.
    Print the lie, seems to be our Fourth Estate’s /Fifth Column’s ‘line to take’.
    Thanks for this, Stu.
    Davidson should resign; Torrance should carry on writing such blatant lies, please.

  6. Grouse Beater says:

    A timely reminder of the colonial language register.

    Funnily enough, I touched on that subject middle of last month, but in a different light: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

  7. Weechid says:

    Is Torrance saying therefore that we should not be equal partners and that situation is acceptable? That he’s quite happy for Scotland, Wales and NI to be treated as inferior in this so called union? What kind of attitude is that? I just don’t understand that mindset at all.

  8. manandboy says:

    OT, and because its late and very quiet. I read some comments earlier but found it difficult to understand parts of them due to the absence of punctuation.

    Everone enjoys and appreciates an interesting photograph which is in sharp focus, but not so when the picture is blurred.

    The meaning in text will be blurred if appropriate punctuation is absent. Conversely, correct punctuation renders the meaning clear and heightens both understanding and pleasure.

    It makes sense to use punctuation.

    I’ll, justget down. From my hobby. Horse now.

  9. Richardinho says:

    Oh dear, I fear that a tearful farewell from Twitter can’t be too far away for Mr Torrance..

  10. David says:

    Rev Stu is a Poundshop Al Harron, frankly.
    And Al’s got the bigger beard. 😉

    Seriously, for newcomers, commentator Taranaich, above, writes the pro-Indy Wilderness Of Peace blog. His real name is Al H.

    He’s well worth reading, and indeed has had an article published here on Wings. So he’s got the Rev Stu seal of approval.

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/our-friends-in-europa/

    Apologies for sounding like a fanboy, but if you want info to back up Indy, or to counter some unionist claims, Al’s a good source of factual, well-researched articles. Same as Wings, but with less sweary-words…

    P.S. The more writers we have pointing out the lies and errors and misstatements of the unionists, the better. Do not let their lies stand. Challenge them 24/7. We, and everyone in Scotland, deserve better from our media.

  11. manandboy says:

    Since 1707, the Act of Union was just a Bill of Sale to the English. The last 309 years bears that out.

    Lots of ‘proudscotbuts’ are still selling out to Westminster.

    And there will be a lot more before we’re done.

    The Tories use the phrase ‘equal partners’, the way a paedophile uses the word ‘friend’, to a child.

  12. yesindyref2 says:

    One of those things that has to be done every so often, but for those who occasionally glance at his column for a good laugh, the phrase “but in reality” would bring the first snorts of laughter and a sense of eager expectation to see what his fantasy was going to come up with.

    Followed then by the words “in fact” which a surprising amount of MSM columnists use to tell the most outrageous lies of all. Now that gets the tears streaming down the face which actually makes it very difficult triping a reoplytoo mach th ritings. Don’t start!

  13. Dr Jim says:

    My daddy used to say We’re all born equal, then some become more equal than others

  14. Justin Kenrick says:

    Great to see the excellent wide distribution of the points raised in ‘Wilderness of peace’ yesterday.

    It thoroughly disproves Torrence’s argument: not as an opinion to disagree with but as utterly wrong in fact.

    What is equally interesting is that Torrance responds by accepting he is wrong.

    That is a welcome development.
    https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2016/10/03/some-partnerships-are-more-equal-than-others/

    It’s worth going to the ‘Wilderness’ website to note that Torrance accepts his mistake.

    Let’s encourage EVERY No voter to do likewise, by welcoming them when they admit a mistake.

    As you point out in your excellent previous post on the economics of Brexit, the next indyref will be fought on very different territory, with the economic arguments (in the context of Brexit) very much on the Indy side.

    So is it time for us to take a much stronger position – which still means pointing out mistakes and rapidly rebutting lies, but always expecting that the person we are talking to or about will one day acknowledge their mistake.

    Shalll we make it easier for them to do so?

  15. Taranaich says:

    My ears burn, David!

    P.S. The more writers we have pointing out the lies and errors and misstatements of the unionists, the better. Do not let their lies stand. Challenge them 24/7. We, and everyone in Scotland, deserve better from our media.

    Absolutely. I’ve often found myself getting annoyed that the Rev, or Dug, or Ponsonby got to a story while I was writing up a post, but that certainly doesn’t stop “proper” paid journalists from doing much the same. We all have contributions to bring (the Rev’s quote from the Express is particularly biting), and it only strengthens the case we make.

  16. Dr Jim says:

    As for Torrance, he’s not even a squint of a man, naught but a snottering bottleless infant without a dummy sucking from the Tory teet

    And they’d cast him aside as easily when his usefulness is done
    As they would any other Jock half educated tenement dweller

  17. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ah Justin , you are a better and kinder person than me.

    While acknowledging the need to welcome the ordinary man or woman in the street , who realises the error of their ways in accepting all the drivel force fed them by the MSM and recognising the position in which Scotland finds herself , I find those who peddled that drivel unforgiveable .

    My list is long and I’ve got him on the list and he never will be missed…………..

  18. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmmm, a quick guide to the use of language by Unionist Activists, for the unwary.

    “Fact”. Usually followed by an incredible distortion or make-believe as in “Fact. Scotland owes the man in the moon £1,000,000 trillion”.

    “Nonsense”. Usually followed by nonsense, sometimes Unionist Activists do tell the truth, but not for long.

    “Reality”. Followed by a short work of total fiction.

    “SNP Whingers”, also “Nat whingers” and many others. Damn, they’re telling the truth, must do something.

    “Wee Nippy”. The Unionist Activist feels insecure.

    “divisive”. Oh no, they’re winning.

    “Experts”. Conservative / Labour Press officers – often the same person.

    “braveheart”. Unionist Activist can’t think of anything to say.

    “deficit”. Unionist Activist emergency parachute.

  19. manandboy says:

    Reuters/RT

    British people don’t care about Europe’s single market as much as they care about keeping immigrants out, a snap poll revealed.

    A survey by Sky Data found more than half of those questioned wanted immigration controls to be the government’s number one priority – only 40 percent believed it should be the UK’s access to the single market.

    Xenophobia rules, while the Tories thought it was them.

  20. Macart says:

    Mr Torrance isn’t the sharpest is he? He seems to me to always have the look of a wee boy being caught doing something he shouldn’t.

    A cack handed, fairly unsubtle and childish attempt to rewrite history. His major problem being that the rest of us were there too and of course we don’t suffer from short term memory loss issues.

    That being the case, his ‘commentary’ merely comes across as simple dishonesty.

  21. yesindyref2 says:

    @Macart
    I must admit I can’t make him out. I think he has perception and blinkers, at the same time, but his blinkers keep slipping and cover all his senses.

  22. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2

    He certainly doesn’t make life easy for himself. 😀

    That so many examples are readily available on public record making a nonsense of his article is pretty basic stuff.

    Such an an offering makes the article appear amateurish and poorly researched. It makes him and any who publish the piece look dishonest and/or foolish.

    (shrugs) Their choice Dads. 🙂

  23. The Man in the Jar says:

    Its that British Nationalist over-inflated sense of self importance again. Isnt it!

  24. And he is surpised that some people “abuse” him? Just what has he done to deserve it?

  25. Ruglonian says:

    Nice one Rev, but I’d suggest a link to Al’s piece too as he’s illustrating that he’s the alertist of our alert community!

    To further the point (seriously, no offence meant, I love you) there’s no fucking way that @andrewmarr would have retweeted or even commented on a piece written by you – you’re a pariah – but

  26. Ruglonian says:

    Nice one Rev, but I’d suggest a link to Al’s piece too as he’s illustrating that he’s the alertist of our alert community!

    To further the point (seriously, no offence meant, I love your work) there’s no fucking way that @andrewmarr would have retweeted or even commented on a piece written by you – you’re a pariah – but the exposure that @WingsScotland can get from guest authors

  27. galamcennalath says:

    Malicious or incompetent? Or indeed, both?

    Classic Orwellian rewriting of history — ‘Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.

    This certainly won’t be the last attempt to change the past!

    Torrance just isn’t very good at it.

  28. K1 says:

    Justin,

    Torrance did not ‘accept’ he was wrong. He tweeted:

    ‘@WildernessPeace actually, that’s a pretty good research job, kudos.’

    https://wildernessofpeace.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/davidapproves.jpg?w=474

    Al’s tweet from Torrance isn’t an apology or even an admittance that he was brought to task over smearing the FM, by Wilderness of Peace. (Al never said it was either, he said Torrance was kind enough to ‘acknowledge’ his post on twitter)

    Your need tae bend over backwards and tell us that he ‘accepted’ his mistake repeatedly is a tad over the top Justin. When we can all go and look ourselves and see that he did no such thing!

    The guy is dishonest and has zero integrity.

    Show me the corrected version of his article then I’ll accept ‘possibly’ that we are dealing with someone who has ‘accepted’ he was wrong?

    He uses that falsehood to form the premise for what he really wants to convey about the SNP, which follows in the first sentence of the next paragraph after the end of quoted piece on Wings and Wilderness of Peace:

    ‘It’s a good example of how brilliantly the SNP frame the terms of debate by repeating out-of-context quotes ad nauseam, and also how bad Unionists are at rebutting it. But whatever the reality, such rhetoric has obvious limitations.’

    The ‘lie’ that he told in ‘fact’ isn’t ‘a good example of how brilliantly the SNP frame the terms of the debate by repeating out-of-context quotes ad nauseam…’

    On this occasion it is Torrance who has been caught out re-framing ‘the terms of the debate’ by re writing history to facilitate a thinly disguised smear against the SNP.

  29. Ruglonian says:

    Whoops

    …to continue…

    Stu, I love your work.

    Al, and everyone else who contributes to Wings, you enable a widening of the debate and you allow for the sharing of vital information, so I commend you and long may you continue!

  30. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – from the Herald:

    Scottish LibDem leader Willie Rennie said: “This is an embarrassing gaffe from David Mundell. The Tory figures are voodoo maths from a party desperate to divert attention from the chaos they unleashed with Brexit.”

    More of this please Willie.

  31. Clootie says:

    In the mind of Torrance and co because they did not mean it this equates to “they did not say it”

    The unionist supporters consider every lie to protect the union justified…the result was all that mattered. It appears that control of the media Is now also the control of history.
    …now shut up and eat your cereal.

  32. scotspine says:

    I often wonder whether his “betters” despise him more than they do us, for his unquestioning willingness to shit all over his home Countrys standing, aspirations and potential on their behalf.

    I have no doubt he and others like him will be haunted by the way they have behaved in the years to come.

  33. Ghillie says:

    And in what way, exactly, does Master Torrance think he is not furthering the cause for Independence?

    Keep it coming lad = )

  34. Malky says:

    He’ll grow his hipster beard, dress in sack-cloth and flail remorsefully and repentantly after being caught red-handedly lying. Again. Yep.

    Well done for laying it out for all to see.

  35. Ian MacDonald says:

    Obedient retainer.

  36. Giving Goose says:

    We are not equal partners.
    We could be but generations of Unionists have willinging conspired to make sure that we are not.
    I return these Unionists get ermine, perks, cash and various gongs.

    It was ever thus!

  37. Ianmc says:

    Thing is, e en if they never said it, I believe it to be so. Is Torrance saying then that theUK is not a partnership of equals, that there is one nation of importance pording it over others or is he saying that nations simply don’t exist, like amundell did? In which case it isn’t acceptable to me nor I would say a majority of so called Scots. Just because this fanny heid says it, disnae mean it is right or that we have to accept it.

    I am beginning to view these people in the same way as collaborators on these Quest documentaries.

  38. frogesque says:

    Well done all for brining another liar to book!

    O/t on another forum I have just added the following to my signatuture:

    A ‘divisive nationalist’ … And proud of it!

  39. frogesque says:

    More o/t

    T. Rex about to go ‘live’ on ITV Good Morning. Will Piers Morgan be sycophantic or actually grill her?

  40. Balaaargh says:

    In the mindset of those opposed to independence, not one of those quotes explicitly states “partnership of equals” therefore it didn’t happen.

    Just like no unionist has ever said, “too wee, too poor, too stupid.”

  41. Breeks says:

    I think the leadership of the No campaign was remarkable only for being staggeringly bad. It almost doesn’t matter what they said, because gaffs were airbrushed, dishonesty was excused, and the lies were bellowed through trumpets. It was all contrived waffle engineered to stifle the independence arguments and make sure the positive case for Independence was never heard. Braying Donkeys could have done the job just as effectively, except more of us might have rumbled what was actually happening.

    It wasn’t an “inspired” intervention from Brown that swung it, nor the “safe” hands of Darling. It was the months and years of incessant propaganda wot-dun-it. Utility Toom Tabard Davidson is just another shouty conduit for the same vacuous pish which can’t shut up, nor articulate any progressive case for the Union.

    The media needs a political clothes horse to carry its Union Jack shittery into Scotland, and Plan B Davidson is it because Plan A Dugdale is a dud and so utterly hopeless the BBC can’t even sell her to Labour supporters. So the toxic Tories are leading the campaign to save Scotland for the Union? Oh lucky us. Don’t kid yourselves. The Tories are a busted flush. Keeping Scotland crippled in the Union is the BBC’s job. Don’t forget, it was the BBC who got Scotland to vote for that embarrassing UKIP slug to represent Scotland in Europe. It sure as hell wasn’t UKIP that did that… Think about it.

    The ONLY potency in the whole Better Together propagandathon was the Unionist media, and principally the BBC.

    The deceitful enemy in our living room is still untouched, and largely untouchable. Indyref 2 supporters beware. Ruth Davidson will of course be noticed everywhere she shouts, but she is just a puppet dancing below the dark hand of Unionism. And when her shelf life expires, and it will, we will all have to suffer the next unionist mouthpiece parachuted into the breach. UKIP slug, “in-with-a-shout” Davidson, limp lettuce Dugdale… Why do I even know who these non-entities are??? They come from obscurity, provide a front for Unionism, then plop back into the same obscurity once the rotten tomatoes start to fly.

    The only thing we won’t be hearing on Union TV is the progressive case for the Union. Their budget isn’t big enough to stretch to that. For that you still have to try the fiction section of your local library.

  42. Ken500 says:

    The Tories are destroying the world economy. It is just unbelievable. How they self destruct every time. The Westminster Unionists greedy multimillionaires. Enough is never enough. They will destroy the world economy so they can tax evade. They illegally kill and main millions of innocent people. They are despicable,

    Scotland loses £Billions to the Union. They have tried to destroy the Oil & Gas sector with high taxes when the price has fallen. They are now importing untaxed fracked Gas. Building Hinkley nuclear station. A disaster waiting to happened. Wasting £Billions. HS2 a white elephant making journeys take longer and be more expensive. The mismanagement of the economy and Brexit are a disaster waiting to happen. The Tories are dangerous. It is just appalling. The £ is already falling.
    Putting up prices and lowering living standards. The Tories elected to protected the NHS have been cutting £20Billion. Hunt is a liar.

    The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies.

    Scotland loses £Billions. Time to end this mess. Vote YES to Independence. Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. No more unelected 3rd rate Tories.

  43. Morgatron says:

    Great work as usual Stu. Time for Torrance to retreat back under his quiff. Equal partners my arse! Never has been and never will be.

  44. jimnarlene says:

    If anyone fitted John Cleese’s retainer description, it’s Torrance.

  45. Ken500 says:

    Being treated ‘equal’ is written in the settlement of the Act of Union and a separate Scottish legal system. It has been totally ignored by Westminster for ever. Blair ignored it and set up the London Supreme Court.

  46. frogesque says:

    GMB sycophantic. Shoes and scones. Now we have a cute kid talking about Prince Harry.

    Pass the sick bucket. Yuk!

  47. Mark Harper says:

    Hat off to those who read Torrences shite

  48. jdman says:

    I asked him if he agreed that if he thinks Scotland is NOT an equal partner in the union then we must (by definition) be a vassel state, I await his response!

  49. jdman says:

    Taranaich
    “Great minds think alike, etc etc”
    Sue him for plagerism Al 🙂

  50. Capella says:

    Next week, in his series Debunking SNP myths #34, David Torrance on why nobody ever said, “Scotland! We want you LEAD the UK, not LEAVE it.”

    Does he actually get paid to write stuff?

  51. Training Day says:

    ‘Facts’ said Schopenhaeur, echoing Kant, ‘are facts only when facts factually face factual factification’. It is a dictum that Nicola Sturgeon would do well to heed.

    There you go David, there’s your next column for you..

  52. Ken500 says:

    These unelected 3rd rate Tories, the rest of the Tories multimillionaires and their sycophants have been raiding the public purse in Scotland for far too long. Enough is enough.

  53. galamcennalath says:

    There never was a Union of equals, however heed Yoons have lied left, right, and centre about everything. And that of course included saying we were equals when it suited.

    As IndyRef2 gets closer by the day, all that lying will come back and bite them. They will be reminded of the lies, and they won’t be able to use the same lies again.

    However, many voters appear to have short memories! So now small fry Yoons are trying to deny some lies were ever told.

    Some Union, right enough!

  54. Robert Louis says:

    Like others I also wonder just what motivates these seemingly ‘London tame jocks’ like Torrance, ever so keen to ridicule, put down and generally undermine their own country. I ask it seriously, just what is it that causes sane rational people to sneer at the country of their birth in this way? English folk visiting Scotland don’t do it the other way around.

    Meanwhile, this week we have the London Establishment’s other ‘tame jock’, the laugh a minute, side splittingly funny, Ruth Davidson, ‘defender of the faith’, whose only theme for her ‘funnies’ is putting down the country of her birth. Perhaps the odious Tory Ruth Davidson, who likes to mock Scotland and its people for the merriment of her English superiors, should just stay down there.

    I do sometimes wonder if she might turn up one week at FMQ’s wearing her orange collarette – oh wait, she wouldn’t be welcome in the lodge, would she (see link).

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/orange-order-stands-by-fermanagh-county-grand-master-after-homosexuality-is-wrong-remarks-31468545.html

  55. Grouse Beater says:

    Macart: “Mr Torrance isn’t the sharpest is he? He seems to me to always have the look of a wee boy being caught doing something he shouldn’t.”

    True. So much of his scribbles sound like personal revenge.

    If anybody is interested in how our ability to exercise free will is constrained read this: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

  56. Bob Mack says:

    Personally I am not disappointed. What Mr Torrance is inadvertently doing is pointing out that indeed his mindset views NO equality between England and Scotland, although according to the Treaty of Union, there should be.
    Own goal really.

  57. CAnwehaveourdemocracyback says:

    OT And so it begins… Ireland will be seeking “special status” concessions from the EU to avoid a border between the EU side and the British side. “Its up to the EU” is the key quote.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-to-seek-special-status-for-north-after-brexit-1.2815427

  58. Jamur says:

    Morning folks, Torrance is a troll. Wants us to bite so he gets to play the poor me patter.

    Best not to feed him.

    He is a richt odious little shit tho.

  59. fletch49er says:

    Torrance is actually just one of Cleese’s ‘tenement Scots’, willing to be sub-servant to his ‘imperial masters’ for the promise of a ‘perceived’ better standing in society. In a sentence he’ll sell his Grannie for his own personal gain!

  60. gordoz says:

    Hats off to all of you for ploughing through Toreances bias & gibberish, or anything in the rag called the Herald.
    After Ian Bells passing there’s nothing in it for me
    Having read both Hutcheons & Gordon’s PoRs tweets won’t
    Again till there gone.

  61. The Herald has completely ignored Davidson traducing Scots as vandals and thieves to guffaws of English laughter, therefore it didn’t happen.

    Imagine if any SNP politician had insulted their countrymen and women like that?
    And if it was Enemy No 1, Sturgeon herself, the MSM would explode in a week long ResignFest !

    Torrance lied. He is a political anorak. He has a memory, just like the rest of us. It was a deliberate LIE; and the Herald printed it. He has been caught playing with himself with the curtains open and the light on.
    We have a Fascist Unionist Media , of that there is no doubt.
    Their aim is to bend the will of the people to be subservient to an elite Scottish Branch of the English Establishment.
    Torrance speaks with that upper class, ‘I went to a fee paying school and my family background is Upper Middle Class ‘traditional’ Scottish Ruling Class accent’, and I’m a good egg, one of us, nudge nudge, wink wink ; just like the presenters of BBC Scotland, and the broadsheet editors and High paid journos.
    We rule the airwaves, and print, on behalf of our Masters in the SE.
    Back in you boxes, you five million Sweaties.

    England is bigger than you; if you vote YES next time, England will invade, and the Fifth Column Up Here will unlock the gates to let them in.
    The rantings of a sad old paranoid man?

    There, I saved the MacTernon’s team of anonymous Unitrolls the bother.

    We are being strangled to death by a lying MSM.
    Is it a Masonic or a KSC thing? Or a Better Together alliance of them both?
    I can think of no sane reason why every journalist and TV presenter in Scotland are anti Scottish Unionist Branch members of the SE Establishment.

  62. heedtracker says:

    Another awful display of professional liars in action. Our country once again ground under toryboy’s heel like fag butts. Torrance is a btl troll but the other side of the toryboy media creep out in Scotland, their ongoing black out of Scotland. All that matters is England. Rancid the Graun’s Scotland region news today,

    “Trees believed to have been extinct in Britain have been discovered at the Queen’s official residence in Scotland.

    The two 30-metre (98ft) Wentworth elms have been identified in the Queen’s garden at the Palace of Holyroodhouse just a stone’s throw from the centre of Edinburgh. Tree experts are now looking into ways of propagating the rare specimens, which carry the botanical name Ulmus wentworthii pendula.”

  63. gordoz says:

    After his very public flouncing & toddler tantrums on twitter he doesn’t seem a very stable individual so wont press the matter any further

  64. David Smyth says:

    I watched Torrance in an interview with Michael Gray. In the main Michael had to supply the background detail to the subjects under discussion. No surprise then he failed to research this latest piece.

    Makes you wonder what editorial review is given to his work.

  65. Petra says:

    Torrance (et al ) doesn’t seem to care anymore if he’s caught out lying or not. Manipulative job done as far as he’s concerned. Sad state of affairs. Sad wee man. He’ll be even sadder when we get our Independence and control over broadcasting. There will be no hiding place for the likes of him then.

    ……….

    @ Breeks at 7:22am ……. Good one Breeks and I see that Ruth Davidson is now bragging that the Tories are going to wipe Labour out at the Local Council elections. SLab must be absolutely kicking themselves now for standing shoulder to shoulder with the Tories pre-Indyref1 (and later). That’s Better Together pals for you. Untrustworthy, lying backstabbers.

    ……….

    O/T …

    Re. Taranaich. It’s utterly amazing how many extremely talented people we have fighting our corner. Thanks folks and well done.

    ……….

    O/T … NHS England. Latest reports …. Shortage of doctors crisis. Large numbers are taking a break exacerbating the current situation. Now research shows that 50% of doctors have had enough and are considering leaving England altogether (hope some of them head our way). Meanwhile NHS England have sent representatives to India to recruit 400 doctors for starters and the situation is so dire that they may be allowed to bypass training and sitting exams.

    Meanwhile the Brexiters are going crazy online. “Nobody told them that this would happen.” Aye right! Diane Abbott, for one, tried and now they’re giving her a hard time online. Just wait until they’ve to fill nursing posts, care posts etc, etc, etc with individuals from Commonwealth countries. The you know what will well and truly hit the fan. Next up support for UKIP will go through the roof with ‘all’ that entails. UK on a real slippery slope now.

    ……….

    No word from Nana? Heard she wasn’t feeling great. Get well soon Nana x No sign of Smallaxe either? Hope you’re OK x

  66. Grouse Beater says:

    “Torrance the terrible” – always good for a laugh: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2WO

  67. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Imagine the outcry in the unionist msm if Nicola Sturgeon had called the English thieves and vandals, but its ok for brit underling Ruth Davidson to call Scots that and not a peep from the obedient retainer hacks in the yoon media.

  68. Nana says:

    @Petra

    Thank you for your concern, I am getting better. Links on previous thread so as not to disturb this one.

  69. Aikenheed says:

    Jack Collatin says “Torrance speaks with that upper class…………etc”

    Does that make him a half educated tenement dweller now?
    At least Brillo et al know what the establishment thinks of them.

  70. Free Scotland says:

    Headline writer:

    MAN WITH WEETABIX-SHAPED HEAD DEEMED TO BE SUFFERING PERSECUTION COMPLEX

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/weetaborrance.jpg

  71. galamcennalath says:

    Partnership of equals, my arse …

    “Mike Russell, said that he expected the Scottish Parliament to withhold legislative consent to a “hard Brexit” which excluded the UK from the single market. But the UK Government doesn’t see it this way at all. …… Theresa May needn’t worry her head about legislative consent motions from Holyrood or Cardiff. Scottish MSPs may think they have a say, but they don’t. ”

    http://archive.is/TpDa4

  72. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Why is everyone getting so het-up about that pile Torrance?

    The most-interesting piece in The Herald this week is today’s offering from Ian Macwhirter. It is both succinct and, more-importantly worrying.

    The Tories are going to stuff us again, and laugh while they do it. I just wonder how many more times the Proud Scots But and the dwindling band of die-hard Unionists are going to allow the Tories to boot them in the goolies, before they say enough is enough and vote for Independence.

  73. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have just received a very nice e-mail from “The Herald Scotland”, making me the special offer of 25% off membership of English Heritage.

    Words fail me.

  74. mike cassidy says:

    Torrance has had an outbreak of meaculpas.

    http://archive.is/qCygx

  75. Footsoldier says:

    I do not see the point of David Torrance appearing in The Herald at all. What is he writing about? Nearly all his political comments are anti-SNP and independence, so clearly he is not a journalist taking an objective non-partisan view.

    That his articles are sort of Scottish Daily Mail-ish and nearly always end up with the same conclusion, means they have become quite boring and I do find myself skipping over them as there is no new insight.

    No matter how much you may hate a political concept or a party, surely you could find some good somewhere especially as it is the party chosen successively by a majority of Scottish voters.

  76. Smallaxe says:

    Jack Collatin:

    Watch out Jack! your name will be moving up their Sedition list,your already in the top Twenty.

    🙂

    Peace my friend

  77. Lochside says:

    ‘Call Kaye’…usual parade of weak-kneed apologists with low self esteem and no pride accepting John Cleese’s racial abuse as ‘stupid’ or ‘banter’. Worse Mr.Walker, of Rock’s favourite newspaper ‘The National’ was in denial that there was any organised or obvious anti-Scottishness…this from a man who works in the media and lived through the disgusting attacks on us during the REF.

    tHE SNP guy also had the chance to mention Ruth Davidson’s remarks but again was useless. These pathetic attempts by the SNP when the chance offers itself is one reason that I fear the future of the next REF.

  78. galamcennalath says:

    OT Pound just fell to a 31 year low against the US$.

    And that is just with threat of what might happen in a year or two!

  79. Greannach says:

    Mr Torrance, Ms Lamont, Ms Davidson, Lord Darling et al are completely correct. The United Kingdom family of nations is a partnership of full equals, just like Tanganyika, Nyasaland, Bechuanaland, the Gold Coast et al were fully equal members of our older wider family of nations. Why they displayed such a fit of ungrateful pique and left that family is a total mystery to one and all. Isn’t it?

  80. Footsoldier says:

    I waited in vain at the Scottish referendum for the SNP’s “eleventh hour” assault which I and a lot of others expected but it failed to materialise.

    THe SNP will never be stronger than now and even if they were it could only be marginal given how many seats they currently hold. Bold action is needed from this position of financial and political strength.

    Now is the time to seize the initiative and go on the attack about the real reasons England needs Scotland,I will not list them, how bad things are in the UK compared to many EU countries and elsewhere. Those Scots who holiday within EU countries and adjacent islands can only marvel at their infrastructure.

    Time to really highlight how we are being held back and to really return Theresa May’s rhetoric about sovereignty etc

  81. Proud Cybernat says:

    Three become one…

    http://imgur.com/a/r3M6P

  82. Patrick says:

    Good marshalling of the evidence, but you let yourself down by including the Daily Express as a serious source, and equating Torrance with the Express by virtue of the fact that he’s a journalist and it’s a ‘newspaper’. You’d have been better to miss out the last part.

  83. Valerie says:

    @Petra

    There was definitely an increase in recruitment of doctors from England at the height of the strikes, over 15%. Let’s hope they spread the word, now they are up here.

  84. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

    Lewis Carroll

  85. Flower of Scotland says:

    I remember Tory UK, David Torrance. I remember English relatives grumbling about our roads up in Scotchland. “why do you not build better roads?”

    I remember the poverty in Edinburgh. I remember inflation of 22%, strikes, worry about kids signing up for the forces because there were no jobs. Then the worry of them being sent to N Ireland or some other far off war.

    Always money for wars and the South of England, but steal our resources and keep us down.

    Well enough is enough, David Torrance. Scotland under the SNP are doing much better and we have confidence in ourselves at last.

    You and your Tory friends with your £8.60 prescription charges and £25 eye test charges in England can take a hike.

  86. heedtracker says:

    Thug UK media front page Monday morning was stuff like the Heil’s “Sturgeon warned…” full page banner, on the top shelves of Morrison’s newsstand too. UKOK tory muscle flexing might work but its still very weird UKOK wise. As in, why does whoever Britain Elects is, leave SNP off their Westminster voting intention thingee, or what the what is Scottish Westminster?

    Britain Elects ?@britainelects Oct 2
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 38% (+1)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    UKIP: 16% (+1)
    LDEM: 5 (-1)
    (via Opinium

    Britain Elects ?@britainelects Sep 30
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 30% (-)
    UKIP: 13% (-)
    LDEM: 8% (-)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via YouGov / 28 – 29 Sep)

    Britain Elects ?@britainelects Sep 25
    Scottish Westminster voting intention:
    SNP: 50%
    CON: 21%
    LAB: 16%
    LDEM: 5%
    GRN: 4%
    UKIP: 4%
    (via Panelbase)

  87. Luigi says:

    Ah well. They finally got round to it. Here we go:

    I wondered how long it would take before the yoons tried to airbursh all those broken BT promises out of history. These are like a millstone around the union’s neck and boy do they know it. The irony is that they probably still could have scrapped a (closer) NO win in 2014 without those daft promises, but they a couple of polls spooked them and they flew into panic mode, and said a lot of things that they really should not have.

    I did not think they would leave it to one of their lowest of stooges to rewrite the books, though: David Torrance’s attempt is, frankly hilarious. 1/10 for trying, David. Best leave it to the real pros next time though. Yer just making a big fool of yersel (again).

  88. Morag says:

    *waves sheepishly*

    https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2016/10/03/some-partnerships-are-more-equal-than-others/

    Great minds think alike, etc etc

    That’s an absolutely fantastic article, Taranaich.

  89. Morag says:

    A timely reminder of the colonial language register.

    Funnily enough, I touched on that subject middle of last month, but in a different light: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

    And that is just excellent, Grouse Beater. I just wish you weren’t such a rude, obnoxious curmudgeon in these threads because you write some really good stuff.

  90. Macart says:

    @Nana

    Take it easy Nana and put some ‘me time’ into your day. 🙂

  91. Marker Post says:

    So all three signatories of the Vow are now in the political wilderness. As well as its instigator.

    No need to keep it then.

  92. Al Dossary says:

    Recruiting doctors from abroad – as you sow so shall you reap. Doctors at this point in England must be feeling really down. But that crisis will be as nothing compared to the number of people who are now put off from Nursing as a profession.

    What was once a standardised training, combining on the ward and proper college training has been replaced by a “degree”. And as if that was not bad enough, the Nasty party have removed the grants from trainee nurses.

    To put it into perspective, £9k Uni fees, accomodation fees of as much as £250 a week on London (£9k per year) and even allowing £100 a week to live on and provide books etc could be leaving Nursing graduates on the future with as much as £50k debt for a job that is maybe paying half of that pa.

    For the “normal” young person this is a crazy amount of debt to accumulate just to get into a profession that does not carry particularly high starting salaries.

    To those fortunate enough to be able to afford a private education for their children however, the tuition fees and board etc is just a continuation of the fees they have been paying for their child to attend boarding school. Let’s face it – £30k a year for boarding school vs £22k a year cost to attend UnI even allows a little pocket money from mummy and daddy every week.

    Grants were once avaluable to all, based on needs. Problemwas that all the students with rich parents were actually receiving full grants whereas those from a working class background whose parents were earning reasonable salaries were getting partial grants. One big difference @ the rich as always were screwing the system with the help of their accountants.

    As always the rich screwed the system and the poor got screwed by the system.

  93. G4jeepers says:

    Nana,

    I see the article you linked to previous thread has been disappeared

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/no-westminster-politician-can-set-a-boundary-on-scotland-s-march-as-a-nation-

    Would you have an archived copy?

  94. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “*waves sheepishly*”

    Gah! Well done. Have edited in a link 🙂

  95. Nana says:

    @Macart

    I’m taking it easy Sam, just like the song!
    Whatever was in that last tincture was pretty awesome, slept like a log.

    Actually I’m trying really hard to not get angry right now what with everything that’s happening.

    I’m disappointed the national front page did not reference to Ruth’s scots thieves comment. That was a missed opportunity.

  96. Nana says:

    @G4jeepers Andrew has just reposted the article.

    Thanks Andrew!

    Hope the no voters read this

    Tories ‘wash their hands’ of oil and gas industry

    http://archive.is/ofU52

  97. The “Scottish” Daily Express is reduced to 15P today. Desperation is setting in.

  98. Macart says:

    @ Nana

    ‘Whatever was in that last tincture was pretty awesome, slept like a log.’

    Well, if you have any left to spare… 🙂

  99. Nana says:

    @Macart

    There’s a few dregs left which I will be sooking up tonight, so sorry Macart.

    But you know sometimes laughter can be the best medicine

    Check out the last comment on Mr Malky’s blog
    http://mrmalkysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/tenement-scots.html

  100. The lies the unionists told during the 2014 indy referendum served there purpose, and that all the unionists care about.

  101. Dan Huil says:

    Once again the Rev points out and dissects another example of britnat hypocrisy. When you know where to look it’s all too obvious. The britnat media must be crushed. Don’t buy britnat newspapers or visit their websites; don’t pay the bbc tax.

  102. G4jeepers says:

    Thanks folks 😉

  103. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Nana says on “Waiting for the guns” at 9:24 am this morning.

    Great links again this morning.

    I was particularly taken with:

    “British troops to be made exempt from European human rights laws during combat”

    http://archive.is/a8SmR

    Current UK Law can prevent vexatious claims without removal of ECHR so no doubt this is another unnecessary token gesture by the Brexiteers, (May was always an opponent of ECHR when Home Secretary).

    It gives the MSM big printed headlines and a top of the hour TV news story to provide May another swipe at EU, another channelling of Maggie T style statement “backing the troops” and an example of “taking back control” even though UK always had this control.

    I now have a mental picture of recruiting centre window posters saying “free necklace of ears and ‘holiday’ in the sun for every new recruit”

  104. On the other hand the “Scottish” Daily Express is now cheaper than toilet paper.

  105. DerekM says:

    Jings even the yoons must be thinking this guy is a total liability lol

    Speaking of liabilities i see the Scottish resistance has split and heid the ba has started a new splitter er i mean splinter group nope i was right the first time.

    What the hell are they thinking about burning a UJ someone from the yes movement please give them a slap.

    They might be for Scottish independence but jeez talk about handing the yoons ammo.

    And i see the buffalo whisperer crass comments about all of Scotland is getting very little coverage quelle surprise,the SNP need to fling this right back in her coupon in parliament every time she opens her big gub and maybe mention the fact we Scots do not burn down our own gaff and loot shops destroying folks businesses or have the French police kick the crap out us for smashing up their bars.

  106. Macart says:

    @ Nana

    Ooft! 😀

  107. K1 says:

    So Torrance tweets a mea culpa and acknowledges that ‘part’ of his column was ‘inaccurate’, but as Rev says on twitter, they haven’t corrected in on the Herald…

    *awaits…with bated breath*

  108. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland does more trade with England than the EU
    They love trotting that out as if a threat not to do business
    Yet even after wars with other countries the first thing that’s done by any government of any country anywhere is to establish commerce

    Does England not do business with the 60 odd countries who gained their Independence from the UK out of spite then

    It’s a stupid childish argument and needs shoving down their threatening throats (Especially Ruth Davidson)

    Oh no, I just heard that in my head, you know what I mean though

  109. winifred mccartney says:

    This is surely not just a slight error – it changes the whole tenure of the article and you have to ask where is the editorial judgement or does he have free rein to say what he likes without any kind of fact checking – until you remember he is a unionist and they can lie with impunity.

  110. Grouse Beater says:

    Morag: “rude, obnoxious curmudgeon”

    You’re confusing me with somebody else. I enjoy complimenting contributors when they illuminate, give insight, or are witty. The few who post screeds of waffle regularly, postulating, that take me ten minutes and more to decipher, read out of respect for their contribution, I ask they reconsider their prose style. But I’ve done that only a few times. If they say ‘back off’ I scroll past them thereafter. Mind you, I’ve posted here less and less of late.

    When Stuart demands they make paragraph breaks or get banned, or stop posting outlandish claims, few snort back. When was I obnoxious to you? I assume that must have happened for you to be so … obnoxious. (You’d describe your comment as honest and forthright.)

  111. Grouse Beater says:

    Bug the Panda: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

    Good quotation; could be the Unionist’s creed.

  112. K1 says:

    No one makes you read ‘Breeks’ posts…you pursue him like a man possessed ‘at times’. He has ignored you on the last couple of attempts you made at undermining and ridiculing his comments. It’s a shame ye think you’re ‘that’ smart GB, when actually you’re quite an unkind guy…with a facility for condescension which I’m sure you feel perfectly pleased to justify, as you just did, as so many are beneath ‘your’…level. 😉

  113. Stoker says:

    ayeMail is Going Postal

    They’re a very important arm of our fighting operations and they need our help to expand and get other projects up and running.

    Please donate if you can because every penny matters:
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4#/

  114. One_Scot says:

    Can’t really argue with Iain Macwhirter, Brexit has made the 2014 Independence referendum null and void.

  115. Grouse Beater says:

    K1: “you pursue him like a man possessed ‘at times’.”

    You tried that line before and it didn’t work then. Breeks hasn’t altered the way he presents his opinion, but I wish him well.

    Have a pleasant day.

  116. Clapper57 says:

    Torrance adopts, yet again , the ‘this is how I see it, this is how I want it to be and therefore this is how it is’ principle in one of his many rants of yoon infested fiction regularly serialised courtesy of yoon infested newspaper.

    Or to put it another way maybe he’s just another big lying yoon Trolling f**cker feeding other yoon trolling f**kers courtesy of a yoon trolling f**cking rag masquerading as a newspaper.

  117. Breeks says:

    Poison Radio 2 has just reported the pound has bombed to a 30 year low against the dollar, but rejoice! Its been good for exports and share prices.

    Slump caused by one or two lips beginning to wobble about the “real” Brexit.

    That isn’t a typo, that is 31 year low against the dollar, aye those heady days of 1985 back when Maggie was smashing the Miners and Scotland’s heavy industries, and squandering Scotland’s oil. And let’s not forget the Brixton riots. Pound in your pocket is now worth less than it was then. And Brexit still hasn’t happened.

    It’s such good news, Westminster has abandoned plans to pay off the deficit. Plan now is to stick it all on Visa and it’ll be fine.

    Want to know a secret? What is happening to England is what I thought would happen to England, but in the aftermath of Scotland leaving the UK and taking its assets with it leaving behind a house of cards for the English economy. I hoped we would be clear of it all before it caught in the breeze. It was a fear if you like, because I quite like England, and for a second thing, I didn’t want Scottish independence to be blamed for millennia as the straw that broke the English camels back.

    In Brexit, the English have acted like the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas, and we must stand apart from the madness for the sake of our country. Instead of blaming Scotland for causing this, the landscape is entirely different, and the English now cannot blame Scotland for looking out for our own interests. They have brought it on themselves, and don’t really know what “it” is.

    If you cannot see that Mr Unionist, you are so blind that I would take your vote from you and give it to a child, who we must all hope can be more responsible and self aware about their future than you are.

  118. Stoker says:

    For some reason the link in my previous post is not working.
    Try again!

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4#/

  119. One_Scot says:

    You know, if I didn’t know any better, I would say that Iain Macwhirter would like Scotland to be Independent.

  120. crazycat says:

    @ Stoker

    When I clicked your link to the indiegogo fundraiser, I was told it was invalid. Google led me to the correct page, and at first I couldn’t see what was different about the URL, but I’ve now noticed it has an extra dash in front of the 4:

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4#/

    (I’ll post this and then check the link works.)

  121. crazycat says:

    @ Stoker

    Cross post! You were making the same discovery as I was, at the same time, but all is now well.

  122. Grouse Beater says:

    Breeks: “In Brexit, the English have acted like the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas”

    Gibraltarians are about as feverishly British nationalist as anybody can be. Unsurprisingly they voted by 88% to remain with Europeans.

    They walk about wearing Union Jack T-shirts, praising Thatcher and her legacy. (I almost exaggerate!) It’s like a colony of Tories and blue Meanies. However…

    They’re livid their British government has effectively dumped them. And you’ll note not a single Tory speaking at the conference mentions Gibraltar.

    How’s that for indifference and betrayal?

  123. crazycat says:

    @ Stoker again

    The extra dash, which I can see when I have the page open, disappears when the link is pasted here! So it looks as if I’m talking nonsense. The second link does work though.

  124. Stoker says:

    crazycat

    Confirmed! All’s Well!
    😉

  125. Andrew McLean says:

    One_Scot says: Iain Macwhirter would like Scotland to be Independent.

    Yes, but he wavers. Probably due to the hostile atmosphere towards the SNP in the Herald staff room.

  126. Moonlight says:

    I note that George Freeman MP has proposed that at least part of EU farming subsidies should be re-directed to the NHS (the English one presumably). He is described in the Torygraph as an adviser to Teresa.

    Scottish farmers are already being cheated of extra money paid by the EU on their behalf, but retained in England. Resulting in Scotland’s subsidy level being well down the scale compared with many continental countries.

    So here we have an extra whammy from the Brexiteers, no need to explain how marginal the profits are in Scottish farming.
    Perhaps Torrance will gloatingly report this in media read by the rural community and cause a mass conversion to YES.

    Of course both agriculture and health are devolved, but they rely on the Barnett. Less in the pot is less to go round.

  127. CameronB Brodie says:

    This dehistoricisation and universality that underpins unionism is really beginning to nip my bits.

    @ Angry Walnut
    If iconoclasm is the result of a systematic dehistoricising of religious art in the name of an alleged universality, or equality, does that make your yoon purpose ‘the destruction of a viable Scottish national identity’ in the belief that Britain is “One Nation”? Or are your motives purely banausic? Not that I’m interested like.

    You’re even less cool than that Duncan H. That’s some achievement dude.

  128. Joannie says:

    That’s an interesting article in the Irish Times by Alex Salmond, I wonder if he’s been given space in any part of the UK media to make the same points?

    Or even just the Scottish media?

  129. Grouse Beater says:

    Clapper: “Or to put it another way maybe he’s just another big lying yoon Trolling f**cker feeding other yoon trolling f**kers courtesy of a yoon trolling f**cking rag masquerading as a newspaper.”

    🙂 Some days that’s all one feels, that and scream!

  130. JaceF says:

    OT, does anyone know what the current state of affairs is in Northern Ireland? Are they heading for their own reunification or independence as a result if so what are the possible consequences for the average Scottish citrus fruit fan who’s loyalty to the Union seems tied into the fate of NI?

  131. galamcennalath says:

    “Details of work to keep Scotland in the European Union published

    THE EXPERTS investigating how best to protect Scotland’s relationship with Europe have published details of their early progress. ”

    Looks like they have a long way to go! Still, without clear WM objectives, there are huge numbers of unknowns.

    IMO there will only be one viable conclusion – leave the UK.

    https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9531/details-work-keep-scotland-european-union-published

  132. Dan Huil says:

    @JaceF 12:21pm

    Can’t say for definite but it seems to me the so-called united kingdom is collapsing on all fronts, Northern Ireland included.

  133. Foonurt says:

    Fascinating tae see, Cameron, Broon, Darling gaun fur mair messages. Milaband wae Clegg, hingin in.

    Whaur wull scowlin Mr. Torrance bae ett, twaw years fae noo? Whin anithurr Scoattish Independence referendum, wull shairlie bae run.

  134. Grouse Beater says:

    Joannie: “There’s an interesting article in the Irish Times by Alex Salmond”

    Thanks for the heads up, Joannie. I find Irish commentary on UK politics enlightening for the Irish have no respect for British ambition or colonialism.

    Here’s an interesting paragraph from Salmond’s article:

    “I knew that much depended on style. The administration had to look like it was in charge, even when it was not. As much as possible had to be achieved by the executive power of the Scottish government, while parliamentary legislation required a consensual, popular and limited approach.

    Over one weekend in summer 2007 I changed the name of the administration from the “Scottish executive” to the “Scottish government” by the simple expedient of having all the signs repainted. This was symbolically important in underpinning the government’s authority. In the absence of a majority it is important to govern with panache.”

    Alex Salmond. October 2016

  135. K1 says:

    I ‘didn’t try that line’ before nor ‘did I try that line’ above…you’re unkind GB and are now once ‘again’ attempting to re write the history of what I actually outlined in the ‘before’ you are referring to. My observations were just as ‘valid’ then as they are now, they do not require your ‘approval’. Your ‘disapproval’ does not invalidate them either.

    Why would Breeks alter his opinion?

    Your pursuance of him was based on you being unable to ‘grasp’ what he was ‘on about’. That he wasn’t ‘making sense’ to ‘you’. You were unkind, ungracious and very condescending in the whole manner of your approach because of your own frustration. You made it ‘personal’, as if it was ‘his’ fault that you couldn’t grasp what he was articulating.

    You disagree with that ‘characterisation’ of course! Does not make it any the less ‘valid’ an observation.

    Oh, you have a ‘pleasant’ day too GB, I say it with ‘sincerity’ whereas yours was a ‘dismissal’.

    *backs away…slowly and wonders, can he take any kind of genuine criticism?*

  136. Dr Jim says:

    Scottish Yoons screaming at the SNP “Tell us what the Scottish budget will be” SNP says “We dont know till the UK treasury tells us” Scottish Yoons say “Make some figures up”
    SNP says “NAW” Scottish Yoons say ” But we want to critisise your made up numbers now”

    Jeez!

  137. Luigi says:

    There is no way that WM will allow Scotland any special relationship with the EU. Even if the EU agreed and a workable solution was offered. No No No No: The UK is going down, and they are determined to take us with them. I think Nicola well knows this, but she has to play along for the time being. For the benefit of the soft NO’s, all eforts must be seen to be made, to the point pf exhuastion, even if they are unsuccessful.

  138. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Clapper57 says at 11:54 am

    “Torrance adopts, yet again , the ‘this is how I see it, this is how I want it to be and therefore this is how it is’ principle”

    And like all Yoons (especially those in their Unionist/Westminster bubble) he cannot (or possibly will not) understand that we do not agree with his version of “this is how it is”, doff our caps (Tam o’ Shanters etc.), get back in our tartan Jock box and eat our cereal.

    The political landscape in Scotland will never be the way it was pre IndyRef1 just because Torrance wants it to to be.

    Especially due to the lies and threats of Project Fear, followed by the betrayal that was The Scotland Act 2016, not to mention EVEL).

    If Wee Davie T can’t accept that fact then he should just close his eyes, put his fingers in his ears and repeatedly say “La, La, La, I can’t hear you” rather than try to persuade others that his version of History is the correct one.

  139. Effijy says:

    Does anyone have a form where I can apply to be a second class citizen in England’s local colonies?

    Torrance is an out and out disgrace to Scotland, Human rights, and journalism.

    Does the Rag he writes for allow for corrections to blatant lies printed as facts?

    Do they have a web site were all comments are retained, even when they prove them to be Tory Unionist propaganda?

    Torrance could be stupid, and he could be lazy, but I think he just like the wages of sin received for being
    a Unionist Lap Dog.

    All of the above makes him a prime target to become a Lord
    over us.
    He could have a wee nap next to Mi’Lady Moan and Grown in the House of Lords.

    Do they need to replace the heating system in the HoL?
    We provide them with Ermine Robes and subsidised hot meals. That should keep them warm while they endorse the austerity cuts on our pensioners and disabled citizens.

  140. Brian Powell says:

    Breeks

    I’m assuming they didn’t mention that imports would go up in price, and that we import more than export?

  141. Robert Louis says:

    I have just been watching a protion of the Tory Home Secretary’s speech at the Tory conference, and honestly, I felt like weeping. Watch it, and just listen to the harsh aggressive, Britain is fantastic, rhetoric. Endless, endless criticism of immigrants and immigration, talk of clamping down on this that and everything.

    Seriously, that speech is like something created for a movie, set in a dystopian future ruled by neo-fascists and right wing extremists. I ask in all seriousness, what is becoming of England? My god, these are scary times.

  142. galamcennalath says:

    “Brexit could have ‘catastrophic effect on peace process’, court told

    Lawyer says Belfast Agreement gives North a ‘veto’ over any constitutional change to its status”

    The Tories live a wee world of their own. It’s called England. There is a world beyond.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/brexit-could-have-catastrophic-effect-on-peace-process-court-told-1.2815994

  143. Ken500 says:

    £ falling. Imports will cost more putting prices up. Importing more from the EU I s a reason to stay in not out. Or higher tarriffs and prices.

    The Tories have tried to destroy the Oil sector from 2011 Budget when Osbourne put Oil taxes up 11% (£2Billion) to 80%. Taxing the sector at 80% to 60% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs in Scotland. The tax is now 40% from Jan 2016.

    Fracked untaxed Gas is now being imported from the US. Against the majority interest and the public interest. More Oil & Gas is being imported putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt. The Tories are ruining the world economy.

  144. Joannie says:

    @JaceF – the state of affairs in NI is that Unionists have yet to take their heads out of the sand and realise what Brexit really means for their wee country, Sinn Féin want a border poll now and the rest of nationalist Ireland is waiting…like a cat watching a mouse hole.

    One thing that would speed things up greatly is if Scotland goes independent, so fingers crossed that will happen before we’re all very much older.

  145. Graeme Doig says:

    BBC at the wind up again. James Dornan more or less kept cool under pressure from JB over the Scottish budget timetable.

    Then we have the daily Scottish put down from mundell. Unchallenged of course.

    This brexit vote has given the whole uk establishment the green light for a full on yoontastic assault.

  146. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Louis says:

    “… speech is like something created for a movie, set in a dystopian future ruled by neo-fascists and right wing extremists. I ask in all seriousness, what is becoming of England?”

    There are many aspects of that country and its people I like. I lived there for a year. For the most part, it has much better weather than Scotland. And I do like my ale warm.

    It fills me with sadness the way it is going. While many down south are just as horrified at events as we are, it has to be remembered that at the general election over half of England’s voters chose very right wing parties. And, they did vote for suicidal Brexit.

    So what we see is their own doing. It is not being forced on an unwilling population by politicians with no mandate. That is what is happening to Scotland!

  147. Grouse Beater says:

    K1: “Why would Breeks alter his opinion?”

    Why would he indeed? I don’t expect Breeks to alter his opinion because that isn’t my intention in remarking about his prose style. I ask for clarity of opinion.

    Sigh.

  148. Big Jock says:

    Whether who said what and to whom is irrelevant. The United Kingdom was formed as an equal union. If Torrance is now saying which I suspect he is. That the United Kingdom is not an equal partnership. Then why would he want his country to stay inside a lopsided bottom heavy union, where Scotland has no voice.

    If I was selling worms and my partner was selling slugs, but my business partner was keeping 90% of the profits from both sales. Then giving me peace meal scraps of 10% and then telling me to shut up. I would be dissolving the partnership immediately.

    In other words , what is the point in the UK for Scotland.

  149. msean says:

    I’m sure I heard the equal partners slogan parroted out by quite a few on tv and online.

  150. K1 says:

    ‘Breeks hasn’t altered the way he presents his opinion, but I wish him well.’

    This is the only reason I questioned this in my response to you. You brought it up.

    I see you have chosen to ‘ignore’ my other observations.

    His opinions have been clear, you have not asked ‘for clarity of opinion’. You pursued him on this ‘prose’ issue as ‘you’ term it in the manner I have described. That’s my point GB: You made it personal, were unkind and condescending.

    *wondering over…*

    End.

  151. Grouse Beater says:

    First rate article from Macwhirter in the Herald:

    “Brexit will reassert UK sovereignty in the most dramatic way by stripping the Scottish people of the protections of EU law they have enjoyed for 43 years.”

  152. Desimond says:

    Graeme Doig

    Newsnight to be fair to it went for the Tories last night and it was funny when the young on-conference Reporter was asking Tory MPs to explain terms such as Single Market etc

    Cue a flubbering Mundell “Well Yes, of course I could tell you..but I wont as theres more important things to do just now and its is a waste of time as you already know anyhows”

    Reporter “No I really don’t!”

    To be fair that was topped with an old Tory asking “Can we talk about elephants?”

  153. HandandShrimp says:

    I hope we are not bullying young David with facts here 😉

    They can try to rewrite history all they want. However, they are rather inconvenienced by the written record and the fact that we will not let that record lay undisturbed.

    The attempt to say that Brexit was on the cards if we voted No is a bare faced lie. We were told the opposite and Cameron believed himself when he said so because he fully expected to be tied to another coalition. We were told we were a union of equals too and that was why we were Better Together. Who would want an unequal union?

    Going forward it looks like the message is “Hard Brexit and an unequal union…like it or lump it”. I think we need to take a vote on that.

  154. Joannie says:

    NI’s first minister Arlene Foster telling us on the lunchtime news that the Union has never been stronger and Mrs May sees Northern Ireland as a top priority.

    Its like watching Comical Ali.

  155. Taranaich says:

    @Rev: Gah! Well done. Have edited in a link 🙂

    You didn’t have to, but I appreciate that you did. 🙂

    @Big Jock: Whether who said what and to whom is irrelevant. The United Kingdom was formed as an equal union. If Torrance is now saying which I suspect he is. That the United Kingdom is not an equal partnership. Then why would he want his country to stay inside a lopsided bottom heavy union, where Scotland has no voice.

    The “equal union” thing was always a rhetorical sop to the Scottish Parliamentarians who signed the Treaty of Union, as part of the deal to salve their impoverished personal wealth, under the delusion that Scotland & England (which incorporated Wales at the time) would be treated equitably. It didn’t take long for those fine words to be proven largely meaningless in terms of actual policy.

    300 years later, nothing has changed. Plenty of huff and puff about “union of equals,” “equal partnerships,” and “family of nations,” but precious little evidence. Mr Torrance was, in a roundabout way, actually more accurate than perhaps he intended – that the union is not, in fact, an equal partnership. The problem? The people in power – MPs, Lords, Party Leaders, Secretaries of State to Scotland, Home Secretaries, all the way up to Prime Ministers, were saying otherwise.

    If the establishment did not perpetuate the notion that Scotland was a “full and equal partner,” we would’ve been independent long ago. This, I think, is a key facet in British propaganda. Ireland, the Commonwealth, the Colonies: they may have been British, but they were never *Britain.* Scotland occupied a special position as a nation of the British Isles – it was easy to convince the Scots that they “get a good deal” compared to openly conquered nations.

    We can’t forget the sheer existential threat Scottish Independence presents to the British Establishment, regardless of the ignorant splutterings of oafish politicians and chauvinistic newspapers.

  156. manandboy says:

    A neat bit of perspective from the former Bank of England rate-setter David Blanchflower – “Mark Carney is now the only adult left in the room.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/03/brexit-tories-economy-philip-hammond-debt-targets

  157. Fireproofjim says:

    Saw Anna Soubry being interviewed this morning at the ToryParty Conference. A woman to whom I am warming!
    She said Boris was a liar and the perpetrator of the biggest con trick in the party history.
    Not our Ruthie though. She (who said Brexit was a disaster for Scoland) now says it is just wonderful, and we are all in it together and we will leave together and make it work.
    What a hypocrite!
    As for Mundell. A shameful cringer. Who votes for a creep like that!?

  158. call me dave says:

    I saw the headline in the Daily Fail? this morning as I was going to work just in and read this.

    Tories accused of ‘voodoo maths’ after bungled attack on SNP spending

    https://archive.is/LdxIG

    ‘Man flu’ off to bed! …. too much porridge 🙂

  159. gus1940 says:

    It is all very well being able to refute the lies, threats and general propaganda excreted over us by our colonial masters but for as long as they control near 100% of the broadcast and print media the problem is how to get the message over to the electorate at large.

    Much hot air has been generated over the prospect of a Scottish 6 but even if is given the go-ahead – without a clear out of the unionist lackeys who call the tune at PQ – it would just be an extra 30 minutes of the rubbish we currently get.

    However, an opportunity for progress exists due to the impending cancellation of the unlamented Scotland 20xx.

    What I would propose should be campaigned for is something along the following lines to replace the 4×30 minutes each week given to Scotland 20xx:-

    Every week (but not necessarily running against UK QT) a full hour Scottish Question Time. I wouldn’t even be worried if it was only one SNP panel member versus the rest because we have so much quality they would be more than capable of handling themselves. The panel could contain both MPs and MSPs.

    Similarly every week that Holyrood is sitting – a full hour covering FMQs with a post mortem debate between media types. There would, of course, have to be balance between said media types which might mean including bloggers such as Rev. Stu, G.Ponsonby and The Dug.

    Currently the monthly WM Scottish Questions is repeated late evening – I would extend this coverage to an hour with a post mortem debate as above.

    If the BBC can’t be persuaded to comply with the above is there any reason why STV couldn’t pick up the baton – do the BBC have exclusive rights to show PMQs and FMQs?

    How about a weekly alternative QT or just a debate between Bloggers and Dead Tree Scrollers. I’m sure something along the lines of Rev. Stu, The Dug and Ponsonby versus Cockers, Torrance and any number of possible Tractor Journos.

  160. Robert Graham says:

    Fluffy at the Tory propaganda festival, The SNP doesn’t have a Devine right to rule, Well f/me I must have missed the last few elections, Fluffy with a majority of just over 800 and the only Tory MP in the whole of Scotland hopes and is preying for a different Eletorate , tough shit pal it ain’t going to happen anytime soon, Do these Tories inhabit some kind of parallel universe, that was a rhetorical question by the way.

  161. gus1940 says:

    Last sentence should finish ‘could open a few eyes and minds apart from being fun viewing’

  162. K1 says:

    Top headline’s in the Guardian:

    Rudd announces curbs on migrants coming to UK to work or study

    Jeremy Hunt accused of devaluing contribution of foreign doctors to UK

    Theresa May says Britain will not be ‘a supplicant’ to EU in Brexit talks

    It’s all gotten very blood and soil nationalism…innit.

  163. Baldeagle58 says:

    Joannie says:

    4 October, 2016 at 12:16 pm

    That’s an interesting article in the Irish Times by Alex Salmond, I wonder if he’s been given space in any part of the UK media to make the same points?

    Or even just the Scottish media?

    Do you have a link to this article?

  164. smallaxe @9.20
    I’ve moved into their top twenty sedition list !
    I am not worthy.
    I await the 4 a.m. knock on the door by the thought police.
    My worst fear in Room 101?
    Having my eyes pinned open and forced to watch Saturday night TV.
    No! No ! do it to smallaxe! Do it to him! I love Big Brother ! Hate is love!
    I’m going to get kicked off the site now, Billy.
    Live well, my man.

  165. Papadox says:

    IMHO.

    All Ulster brings to the Westminster table is some unionist MPs a wee bit of ground and potentionaly lots of trouble and expense. along with a back door for immigrants to infiltrate the Great White Queens hallowed homeland. So no great loss, a plus if anything, they can go, let Ireland have the bother.
    Scotland now they have oodles of resources and a pretty uneducated unionist class who demand to have their wealth plundered cause they are to wee, poor, stupid. And ENGERLAND neads their resources to keep their heads above water. The daft jocks won’t understand but they will do as they are told, like what they’ve done for 300 years. Just like shooting fish in a barrel.
    ENGERLAND now has hard borders and again has catched Scotland.

  166. Luigi says:

    Fireproofjim says:

    4 October, 2016 at 2:00 pm

    Saw Anna Soubry being interviewed this morning at the ToryParty Conference. A woman to whom I am warming!
    She said Boris was a liar and the perpetrator of the biggest con trick in the party history.
    Not our Ruthie though. She (who said Brexit was a disaster for Scoland) now says it is just wonderful, and we are all in it together and we will leave together and make it work.
    What a hypocrite!

    Mmmmm, makes you wonder what Ruthie has been promised for this sudden bout of good, anti-Scottish behaviour. A few nudges and winks have been made at the Tory conference, methinks. What was promised for this u-turn? Must be something substantial.

    Buffalos (and tanks for that matter) are not exactly the most manouverable of beasts. 🙂

    What’s in it fer ye, Ruthie?

  167. Dr Jim says:

    Spanish foreign minister demands the UK Guv pay up for 300.000 British immigrants ongoing health care (Average age 51 years)

    The UK Guv likes to call British immigrants Expats

    You know the ones who wont learn Spanish and expect to be spoken to in English (Damn foreigners in their own country not learning English eh)

  168. Robert Louis says:

    That is a very interesting article by Alex Salmond. The last few paragraphs in particular demand attention, worthy of a slow read and consideration. I quote them below;

    “..No man and indeed no woman can set a boundary on the march of an nation and no Westminster politician ever shall.

    I have no doubt my successor, Nicola Sturgeon, will soon propose an initiative which discharges her mandate to protect Scotland’s position as a European nation. She will do so on the basis that if this is accepted then further gains will be made. If it is not it will make Scotland’s choices ever clearer.

    Or as Parnell put it quite explicitly at the end of that address in the Cork Opera House all of these years ago: “We shall not do anything to hinder or prevent better people who may come after us from gaining better things than those for which we now contend.”

    Source : http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/no-westminster-politician-can-set-a-boundary-on-scotland-s-march-as-a-nation-1.2813933

  169. Arbroath1320 says:

    If I understand this right here we have another *YAWN* Tory with another *YAWN* attack on pensions.

    http://www.professionalpensions.com/professional-pensions/news/2471482/lord-flight-brexit-will-allow-us-to-dump-eu-pensions-legislation

  170. Grouse Beater says:

    Dr Jim: “Spanish foreign minister demands the UK Guv pay up for 300.000 British immigrants ongoing health care (average age 51 years).”

    Hoo haar! And so it begins…

    (Got a link, Jim?)

  171. Proud Cybernat says:

    Bricking it…

    http://imgur.com/a/eBRQ2

  172. Dr Jim says:

    @Grouse Beater… Spanish Foeign Minister

    Can’t do the linky thing but @John Nicolson MP Twitter

    Plus just in RTE News says Northern Ireland has a legal veto over Brexit but doesn’t say whether they intend to exercise it or not

  173. James robb says:

    Torrance is the epitomy of Jon Cleese comments about the majority of Scottish journalsits

  174. RogueCoder says:

    Hi folks,

    I know we’ve asked a lot of you already this year, but the Tories are going for rock hard Brexit and already we’re seeing them wanting to kick out our precious NHS staff. Please, give us what you can. In return, we’ll put 100,000 Yes cards, 20,000 EU/Yes badges, and 5,000 Yes window stickers straight into the hands of Yes groups all over the country. We also want the groups to start filming their own stories so we can post them along side the fabulous PERSPECTIVE series from Phantom Power Films. And finally, we want to give Ronnie’s “Wings” stall a big boost so that he can continue his valuable outreach work.

    Every penny counts! Thank you.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4/x/6905220#/

  175. manandboy says:

    Jack Collatin at 8.59am says

    “We are being strangled to death by a lying MSM.
    Is it a Masonic or a KSC thing? Or a Better Together alliance of them both?”

    You’ve lost me, Jack. Please explain.

  176. Dr Jim says:

    News coming in like a runaway train today

    IMF Downgrades the UK forecast

    IMF “Raises” the Eurozone forecast in the wake of Theresa Mays speech

    At this rate the UK will be like something out of a Dickensian Novel by the end of the week, I’m sending the next kid I see out for the biggest turkey in the shop

    (and keeping it)

  177. Grouse Beater says:

    Nana: “Grousebeater, links are on previous thread”

    Thanks, Nana.

  178. shug says:

    Talking of white wash I noticed the call KAYE this morning was painting John Cleese as making a comment about all Scots when in fact he was targeting unionists Scots in England seeking favour
    Naught naughty KAYE
    We know your game

  179. ben madigan says:

    haven’t had time to read all the comments but want to draw your attention to a masterly rebuttal of torrance’s claims https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2016/10/03/some-partnerships-are-more-equal-than-others/

  180. YesMeansYes says:

    ” jimnarlene says:
    4 October, 2016 at 7:19 am

    If anyone fitted John Cleese’s retainer description, it’s Torrance.”

    Old Torrance the hairy retainer

    Sir Henry at Rawlinson End

  181. K1 says:

    Ye see what I like about that Irish Times piece is that although it is in the Opinion section of the ‘paper’ it is not some ‘pundit’ interpreting what Alex said, it is in fact his entire speech unadulterated by a hack, by the look of it.

    What I find utterly disdainful is the arrogance of inferior intellect’s in the Herald et al ‘interpreting’ and ‘spinning’ what our politicians say. They are nothing more than propagandists with their own (masters) agenda writ large throughout.

    The Irish Times is to be commended for affording their readers the benefit of the doubt of having brains capable of understanding what is being conveyed without the need of a ‘translator’. Good speech Alex.

  182. Grouse Beater says:

    Click Bait

    K1: “the arrogance of inferior intellect’s in the Herald”

  183. Nana says:

    Before indyref there was a bill going through parliament re national service which I believe did not progress, well guess what here’s the new idea from fool fallon

    http://archive.is/GLeYW

  184. Tinto Chiel says:

    Two stinging rebukes to Tank Top Boy: great work by Rev. and Taranaich.

    Since this site is really the Caledonian Brains Trust I offer you this weird scenario for consideration under the question. “Could it happen ‘cos the Tories are definitely up to something?”

    Theresa Mayhem knows the economy is about to crash (see today’s fluctuations) and it will get so much worse after she pushes the Brexit Button.

    So, she goes for an early election (some stuff about wanting a mandate to negotiate a great deal for Britain with the EU) to give her a much bigger majority over Labour before the roof falls in once the disaster of Brexit is realised or felt by the electorate.

    But, I hear you say, she needs a 2/3rds majority to vote for an early election. Yes, but the Blairites would love to see Corbyn humiliated so they can retake control afterwards and so they may vote accordingly. Corbyn himself has been telling them to prepare for an election next year and crazily seems to want one.

    In a GE the SNP might even lose few seats (cries of “they have peaked, the nightmare is over” from Yoons) and it would perhaps interfere with planning for Indyref2 by vile cyber-seps.

    What if the FM slaps down her Joker and simply says that Scotland’s voice has been ignored following the EU referendum and that a vote for the SNP in the election will be a mandate to end the Union and wave cheerio to HMS England before she meets the iceberg?

    Advantage: no long Indy campaign, no mess, no fuss, been nice knowing you, etc…..

    Could this happen, pop-pickers?

    Could it?

  185. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Special relationship
    Partnership of equals
    The cheque is in the post
    Of course I love you
    You all know the last one.

  186. Still Positive. says:

    Tinto Chiel @ 3.55

    It would be great but I think that has to be voted for at conference – although they could email/letter all members to change it.

    Nana @ 3.45

    Are they trying to stir up a powderkeg? Army cadets in state schools in predominantly Muslim areas. Ex- soldiers suffering from PTSD will go down a storm in prisons.

    Will they ever learn?

  187. Luigi says:

    Folks, this is going to get nasty. Teresa May’s gollumesque harping on about her “precioussssss” union really freaks me out. This is the woman that would not think twice about pushing the nuke button, remember. We are threatening her “preciousssssss” union and she will be coming after us big time.

    This one fights dirty (even by yoon standards). Brace yourselves. 🙁

  188. Andy-B says:

    Torrance is by all accounts a sad lickspittle, his purposely adopted amnesiac stance, is common in unionist compadors, belonging to the press in general.

    Is it any wonder that Torrance, is considered, a anathema, in certain quarters.

  189. Iain More says:

    OT

    So the Brit Peso is on the slide again but even the National cant report general economic news correctly. It is highly misleading to suggest that the Brit Pesos slide benefits the Thieving London Stock Exchange. What it does do is benefit shareholders in Companies that trade/report in Yankee dollars/ Euros etc or any other currency that has strengthened against the Brit Peso.

    Oh and as for its slide benefiting exporters well doh on that one as the Companies have to export more just to derive the same effin income they had before it hit the rocks. They have to export more to stand still from an income point of view! DOH!!!!!

  190. ScottieDog says:

    @Breeks
    “Poison Radio 2 has just reported the pound has bombed to a 30 year low against the dollar, but rejoice! Its been good for exports and share prices.”

    Did they mention that the UK is a net importer.?!

  191. heedtracker says:

    Lest face it, Torrance and his fellow massed ranks of tory liars are merely protecting an elite class and their super rich masters. Its all that the red and blue tories really know now. Bomber Blair and Crash Gordo brought endless war and debt but creeps like Torrance or BBC Scotland are just a small part of Snatcher Thatcher’s legacy.

    Out of the mouths of babes,

    http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-03/girl-5-gives-theresa-may-a-telling-off-about-the-homeless/

  192. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Nana says at 3:45 pm

    Aye Nana, get them while they are young and impressionable and give them a hefty dose of God, Queen & Country and swearing allegiance to the Flag etc.

    No doubt Fallon (et al) think that’ll nip those terrorist/separatist sympathy’s in the bud.

    Tinto Chiel says at 3:55 pm

    The only way the Tories can dodge the Brexit bullet and save face (and their investments) is to have a GE which they either lose or are forced into a coalition (either way it will be a 2nd EU Ref. or the new Govt. refuses to honour the result/trigger Article 50.

    Worst case with an early GE is UKIP take a load of seats and are the coalition partner (then they’d be back where we are now, just heading into the abyss at a quicker pace).

    Lovin’ the “Caledonian Brains Trust” 🙂

  193. John H. says:

    Listening to extracts of the tory party speeches on the car radio today, I couldn’t help wondering what symbol they’ll expect immigrants to wear on their clothing. The Star of David is already taken.

  194. Scott says:

    Just had a thought about the Tank when she is quoted as having said this.

    I’m delighted we have such spectacular surroundings,” said Ms Davidson.

    “Usually they put the Scots in a place where nothing can be broken. Or stolen for that matter!”

    As she is keen to be FM would it be wise to let her stay in Bute house as there must be some valuable stuff there and the temptation to maybe steal them would tempting as we Scots are all thief’s according to her.

  195. Robert Peffers says:

    Ignoring everything else and just considering the actual present setup of the Westminster Establishment is more than amply proof that this union, which incidentally is described by its title as NOT being either a country nor a union of countries.

    It was originally legally entitled in 1706/7, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, and here is the actual text from the introduction from that Act of The Parliament of the Kingdom of England:-

    “That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint and the Crosses of St Andrew and St George be conjoined in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit and used in all Flags Banners Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land “

    There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there are legally only two partner kingdom who signed that Treaty of Union and each one produced their own, “Act of Union”.

    Nor is their the slightest doubt that both Wales & Ireland were already part of that Kingdom of England. See:- “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, 1284:-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Rhuddlan

    This Statute under both the English and Welsh laws of 1284, (the Divine Right of Kings), legally annexed the Principality of Wales as part of the Kingdom of England.

    To date the first male heir to the English crown becomes the Prince of Wales.

    The Irish Parliament, in 1542, passed, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that legally made Ireland part of the Kingdom of England, (also under the then English and Irish, “Divine Right Of Kings”, legal system.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aip/Hen8/33/1

    The historic background being that the King of England had defeated the King of Ireland and declared himself, “Lord of Ireland”, with the King of Ireland owing him fealty.

    However the Irish proved to be a thorn in his side so he forced the Parliament of Ireland to pass the act thus annexing Ireland to the Kingdom of England.

    Historically the law of that Kingdom of England only partially changed the laws of, “Devine Right of Kings”, by the English Parliament’s, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688: –

    https://www.britannica.com/event/Glorious-Revolution

    They did not, as would seem logical, become a republic.

    Instead, due to legal precedence under existing English law that states, (I paraphrase), “A sovereign, simply by being sovereign, cannot give up the kingdom’s sovereignty”, they can only abdicate their personal sovereignty and thus the sovereignty of the kingdom immediately passes to the, next in line to the throne, royal personage).

    What they did was only offer the crown to William & Mary if they agreed to delegate forever their sovereignty, (Divine Right), to the parliament of the Kingdom of England. That made the three country Kingdom of England, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, and it remains so today.

    However, in 1603, when James VI of Scotland inherited the crown of the Kingdom of England the English Parliament was in a great deal of bother. He was the child of a marriage of convenience designed, by the English, to work the opposite way round.

    That is the marriage was meant to acquire Scotland as part of the Kingdom of England and indeed the Westminster Establishment still refers, wrongly, to 1603 as The Union of The Crowns.

    Trouble was that as James VI was not, (under Scots law), sovereign, (The Scots having successfully internationally established by, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, (in English) :-

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/the-text-of-the-declaration-of-arbroath-1-465230

    … that not only was the Kingdom of Scotland an independent Kingdom but that the People of Scotland were legally recognised as Sovereign and they could legally drive out any monarch who they considered not to be an effective protector of the people’s sovereignty.

    Simply put James VI could not establish the Westminster Establishment’s dream of a United Kingdom of all Britain called The Kingdom of England. He could not even legally, (under English Divine Right), annex the rest of Britain as the Kingdom of Scotland. He did not have sovereignty over Scotland to begin with.

    So it was that the English Parliament deposed the monarch that wore both kingdom’s crowns and established what they claimed was the new Monarchy of Britain.

    Their problem, which they have ever since ignored, was that in 1688, and again in 1706/7 there WAS no monarchy of all Britain which was why they forced the Treaty of Union upon Scotland in the first place but they called the Jacobite uprising against that English Monarchy a Jacobite Rebellion.

    You cannot, though, rebel against a Monarchy not your own. Which was why, almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed, Butcher Cumberland was slaughtering innocent, non-combatant women and children, across the Highland’s of Scotland after the Battle of Culloden Moor, in 1745:-

    http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/jacobitesenlightenmentclearances/culloden/

    So there you have it, this claim that there is an equal United Kingdom has been getting lies about by Westminster since long before the present crop of liars to now hold office in, (the corrupt as ever), “Westminster Establishment”.

  196. heedtracker says:

    Rancid’s rolling tory conference coverage, toryboy’s throwing petrol on the UKOK xenophobe fire. Its exactly what they’ll do to Scotland as the next and last referendum gets near.

    Politics
    Politics live with Andrew Sparrow
    Amber Rudd pledges to prevent migrants ‘taking jobs British people could do’ – Politics live

  197. mike cassidy says:

    Maybe this is what they mean by a strong UK retaking its place in the world.

    http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//BHC_RTV/1936/04/16/BGU407210395/

  198. Hamish100 says:

    Fluffy governor general – the sole tory MP tells Scotland we will engage with you but you will do as your are told and follow England. No dissent, no discussion, no respect for the people.

    democracy?

  199. Robert Louis says:

    Any so-called ‘journalist’ who counters the falling pound with, ‘ah, but the FTSE is at a record high’ should be sacked immediately. The ONLY reason share prices (some) (and therefore the FTSE) are so high is entirely due to the currency movements, and NOT because their is some kind of positive business sentiment in response to the full English brexit disaster. i.e you get more pounds to the USD.

    Jeez, this country’s media, FFS.

  200. ephemeraldeception says:

    David Torrances clearly false and revisionist writing outs him for the fifth columnist he is and he should be titled as such at every occasion.

    Wretches like him should be shunned. Other European countries do not promote or quietly suffer the enemies within such as he. Needs to be put back under the rock he slithered out from and kept there.

  201. heedtracker says:

    “Usually they put the Scots in a place where nothing can be broken. Or stolen for that matter!”

    Thieving jocks is a well worn English slander. Jeremy Paxman’s doing a BBC 4 ode to merry olde England thing, mainly about London but last night he held up the painting below as wondrous Victorian English mise en scène.

    Paxo’s in love with England and the English, the way only rich narcissist toryboys are but the great one focused a bit on young guys getting ripped off at the races in this painting. The crooks ripping them off are all Scots. Paxo didn’t mention that bit. Nor did he mention that the painter’s name is also a lovely Scottish word for breaking waves on the beach.

    http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/frith-the-derby-day-n00615

  202. I know of no other country in the world where it’s own people seem to delight in talking it down and telling lies about it all done with a smile on their faces .,because if they told the truth their arguments would not stand up and they know it

  203. Sorry should have read some of its own people

  204. louis.b.argyll says:

    So Scotland,

    How does it feel to be a silent partner
    in a household with crippling debt,
    an ageing population and a spouse
    who let’s his pals from the club
    decide how much housekeeping you get?

    Huh? You voted yes?
    Not you…the other lot,
    the cowardly part of Scotland.

  205. Sorry should have read Some of its own peopleBl

  206. Dr Jim says:

    Andrea Leadsom reckons once they get rid of the nasty furriners unemployed British people should be sent into the fields to do the fruit picking
    Kinda slightly at odds there with all that talk of upskilling the workforce

    Of course once they issue us lazy workshy pensioners with so much time on our hands with boiler suits with the yellow patch on we can get the picking done

    Well, you shouldn’t just get a pension for nothing you have to earn the right to claim it because the state pension for those who don’t know is being discussed for a reclassification to a “Benefit”

    You paid in, but we’ve changed our minds about paying back
    say the Tories, that’ll be the long term economic plan there

    There are options available, Starvation, Winter pneumonia and lingering death, or will that just be the Euthanasia for today (with dignity of course, always caring)

  207. Provost Sludden says:

    I wonder what the Steptoe and Son of Scottish journalism (the Massies) would say about all this? And would anyone care?

  208. heedtracker says:

    Blair Paterson says:
    4 October, 2016 at 5:25 pm
    I know of no other country in the world where it’s own people seem to delight in talking it down and telling lies about it all done with a smile on their faces .,because if they told the truth their arguments would not stand up and they know it

    Toryboys like Torrance or the assorted tory freak show that’s stuffed into Pacific Quay say its only save Scots from themselves, we’re too small, poor, stupid.

    Did you know that:D

    And of course we’ve got the remnants of SLabour, angry, entitled, forever running down Scotland, desperately trying to creep back in, with everything BBC Scotland have got. Its a UKOK madhouse of yoonery, sometimes international too.

    Scott Arthur Retweeted
    leah franchetti ?@LeahFranchetti 11h11 hours ago
    Delays in diagnosis, wards and clinics understaffed, admin chaos – Scottish cancer patients describe their treatment

  209. Legerwood says:

    Robert Louis says:
    4 October, 2016 at 5:08 pm
    “”Any so-called ‘journalist’ who counters the falling pound with, ‘ah, but the FTSE is at a record high’ should be sacked immediately. The ONLY reason share prices (some) (and therefore the FTSE) are so high is entirely due to the currency movements, and NOT because their is some kind of positive business sentiment in response to the full English brexit disaster. i.e you get more pounds to the USD.

    Jeez, this country’s media, FFS.””

    In the immediate aftermath of the referendum vote all the talk in the media was of the Footsie 250 as being a better indicator of how the UK is doing. Now it is never mentioned and all talk is of the Footsie 100. Wonder why? Do they, the media, think it is better to talk about things going ‘up’ to make think all is well?

    Even when they talk about the pound hitting a new low they can barely manage to put a figure to what that new low is. About half-an-hour ago the pound was at 1.274 to the dollar and 1.13 to the Euro.

  210. ScottieDog says:

    The main reason the FTSE is on a high is government intervention. QE has been used since the 2010 to inflate asset prices and a new round has begun recently – a further 70Bn of debt bought by the Bank of England to increase the wealth of the rich and transfer wealth from the rest of us.

  211. Luigi says:

    How long before the British slaves unemployed that refuse to pick fruit have their benefits cut?

    It’s coming, folks. You better believe it. It’s coming.

  212. manandboy @3.01
    I am at a loss to establish that which I have to explain.
    I’ll hazard a guess, why not.
    There is no doubt that there is an unspoken agenda permeating the newsrooms and studios of our MSM; a secret society, a Fifth Column, running through our institutions, companies, LA’s, and Newspapers and broadcasting, which is unquestionably pro Brit Unionism, and consider that because of their status, wealth, or position, that they can mount Project Fear, call on all the resources of the WM Government, and attack the Yes Movement with a vehement hatred and disdain for truth and justice.
    A secret undercurrent, like the Masons of the Knights.
    I’m assuming that members of these two fine, but secretive organisations are at the top of the house in Policing, the Judiciary, Finance, Unionist Parties, the Church, Land Owning Nobility, and so on.
    I am getting lost here.
    It is clear that there is a Fifth Column, in the most influential roles in our country, who will do anything to balk the Independence push.
    I am sure that there are many tens of thousands of Masons, Knights, Buffaloes, Flat Earthers who are passionate Independence supporters, though.
    I didn’t mean to hit a nerve honest.
    We have a powerful Unionist hierarchy Up Here, that’s all I’m saying.

  213. Papadox says:

    Did Andrea Leadsom get her ideas of the peasants into the fields and deportation of the educated furriners from Pol Pot. Aye these tollies never mis a trick. Ruth will enforce and Mumbell will do the propaganda for helping the condemned. To their proper place in a Tory world.

  214. galamcennalath says:

    Every so often something is just so nasty, it goes too far.

    “Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has accused the SNP of attempting to “get up the noses” of English people to help the cause of independence.”

    … and that is coming from a Tory, of the Greater English National Party who have been getting up the noses of Scots for decades!

    http://archive.is/9o8Z8

  215. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Paxo’s in love with England and the English”

    Which was why it was so delightful in “Who Do You Think You Are?” that he discovered his grandmother was a poor Glaswegian with an interesting social life.

    I recall also he used to snigger that the handover on Newsnight to the Scottish opt-out section with “Just-To-Be-Clear” Brewer was sometimes botched to make BBC Scotland look amateur and second-rate.

    At least Paxo got that bit right.

  216. One_Scot says:

    What I cannot fathom out for the life of me is that there are people who exist that are happy to sell Scotland down the river, even though they are knowingly pissed on by the very people they are trying to please.

  217. manandboy says:

    Thanks for that, Jack. I appreciate the trouble you have taken to expand your original comments. I only hope that these circles of secrecy can be effectively legislated against in a new Scotland. I’m sure you would consider joining me in that regard. Cheers.

  218. heedtracker says:

    At least Paxo got that bit right.

    He coined the term “Scottish Raj.” Britain run by the Scottish Raj is a pretty good slam, for Paxo. Did he ever thank us for overthrowing the Scottish Raj though? Probably not. BBC is stuffed with Britnat tories that know exactly what to say to camera and old Paxo’s eased off a bit on the imperial master baiter stuff lately. Cant think why.

    Also that Frith Derby painting has a Scottish family, either on their knees, trying to entertain, or just bare foot, in front of rich English Victorians. Just out of view, a Scottish soldier. Paxo dodged that too.

  219. Gary45% says:

    Ah! The return of the Ars*hole in the carpet pattern tank top.
    Scotland will NEVER forget. They can spin it whatever way they want, Tory will ALWAYS be Thatcher
    Indy Ref 2,
    AYE

  220. galamcennalath says:

    One_Scot says:

    “… happy to sell Scotland down the river, even though they are knowingly pissed on by the very people they are trying to please.”

    Indeed. The great paradox of the proud-Scot-but.

    I reckon deep down they see themselves as wannabe English. They would love to talk just like middle class English, eat like them, laugh at the same jokes as them. They read/listen/watch the London media and believe it refers to them.

    Well we have news for them – they are just moaning sponging Sweaties like the rest of us when viewed by the decision making classes in London.

  221. Bob Mack says:

    Just hearing that a N Lanarkshire Labour Councillor has been charged with child pornography offences. He was a main opponent of the named person scheme and constantly backed up Neil Findlay on Facebook against its introduction. Now we know why.

  222. Legerwood says:

    Papadox says:
    4 October, 2016 at 6:01 pm
    “”Did Andrea Leadsom get her ideas of the peasants into the fields..””

    It is the Tories’ plan for all those who do not go to Grammar School

  223. Papadox says:

    galamcennalath says: 6:24PM

    Spot on. When you sell your country out. There is a word for that. And it fits.

  224. manandboy says:

    Michael Deacon in yesterdays Telegraph is a MUST read :
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/03/philip-hammond-said-brexit-would-make-us-poorer

    BEFORE BREXIT, Hammond said:
    “Hard-headed analysis shows that every alternative to remaining in a reformed EU would leave Britain weaker, less safe and worse off. Working people would pay the price with fewer jobs and rising prices… British businesses would be squeezed out of traditional markets… [Brexit would mean we] sacrifice jobs and growth… while our competitors forge ahead…”

    During the EU referendum campaign, Mr Hammond became so convinced we should remain that opponents supposedly nicknamed him “europhil”.

    Today, however, in his speech to Conservative party conference in Birmingham, this same man said the following.

    “The British people did not vote on June 23 to become poorer or less secure… No one should be in any doubt that we have the skills, the ingenuity and the determination to make a success of Brexit… We ARE going to make a success of it… Our vibrant, successful economy will mean that when future generations look back on our decision in 2016 they will see not the end of an era but the beginning of a new age… A bigger, better, greater Britain…”

  225. jdman says:

    Tnto chiel
    “his grandmother was a poor Glaswegian with an interesting social life.”

    Bwhahahahahahahahaha brilliant! 🙂

  226. handclapping says:

    A bigger, better, greater Britain…”

    Watch out if you’re the Isle of Man, or does it mean that they are going to invade Europe and make it part of the Greater Britain Co-Prosperity Spnere?

  227. Hamish100 says:

    Jackie brit on bbc north Brit this evening.
    1. poss good story over improved tagging techniques of prisoners on remand– cut to tory who says unchallenged that the SNP are soft on justice
    2. then brian whittle –snp bad
    3. then the tory conference–fluffy SoSS –snp bad, then Davidson — The First Minister is bad. Davidson joined by that strange guy from Nairn that John Cleese doesn’t like and the spectator all owned by a company that employs the bbc A Neil esq.
    4. then snp bad — tory on not having a budget to scrutiny– didn’t he know his chancellor is producing the ruk one until November – of course he does–mind you thanks to sneeky Patrick Harvie on that one..
    ALL of the tories got free range , no discussion, np challenging.

    As many on here have said before the snp have to challenge the BBC — being timid does not work

  228. Fran says:

    Nana says:
    4 October, 2016 at 3:45 pm

    They might just get called the Fallon Youth

  229. Robert Graham says:

    O/T Question but probably relevant
    The company involved in postal vote counting in Scotland has links to Peter Lilly of Tory fame does anyone believe this is acceptable given his links to the current hostile Tory government or have our ever vigilant media checked this out and concluded ” nothing to see move on “.

  230. Connor McEwan says:

    The Canary has a great Mother Theresa of the Blackhole of Wheeshtminster piece, also buy gold and leave the country.

    http://www.thecanary.co/2016/10/04/uk-establishment-carps-corbyn-theresa-may-taken-wrecking-ball-place/

  231. Famous15 says:

    Brexit is not amusing. Is it?

    John Cleese is to be congratulated for swimming into our consciousnesss once more albeit for making remarks worthy of Tory stalwards like Ruth Davidson and Tavish Scott.

    His wonderful sketch demonstrating the work of the Ministry of Silly Walks compares very favourably with the Ministry for Brexit. The former is intellecually far superior.

  232. uno mas says:

    Tory Party Conference Today.

    Ah, “One Nation” Toryism.

    It´s a wonderful thing,is it not?

  233. yesindyref2 says:

    @Joannie
    I think Salmond being Foreign Affairs spokesperson he’s concentrating on foreign circles and media, doing a great job I think, with the occasional provocation to get the Unionists rattled and totally off balance.

    @manandboy
    With my interest in UK defence for its own sake, I’m a bit of a fan of Hammond. He took an MOD that was out of control with budgets after the previous defence secretaries had completely blitzed then, barrage ballons the lot, and quietly and calmly turned the finances around, tightening procedures here, quotations there, and basically getting rid of the TOBA (Terms of business agreement) with BaE whereby an idle yard meant BaE was paid a lot of money. Dodgy for the yard, good for the MOD.

    He’s inherited Osborne’s mess, and what a mess that is. Out of the Conservatives and probably Labour too, he’s the best man for the job – make of that what you can!

  234. Robert Graham says:

    RE- the link to STV with Ruthie’s wind up the english comments at the Birmingham propaganda festival , there was a footnote stating the SNP were approached for comment what they didn’t say was they were too busy laughing and rolling about to answer an other stupid bleedn question about the Tory party and their resident comedian .

  235. yesindyref2 says:

    @gus1940
    I think the idea of the Scottish Six is we’d get that extra half hour with UK and international news, but at least it would say England’s NHS” and “the UK Government”, rather than THE NHS, and THE Government. Which is perhaps part of why both the SNP and Scottish Government support it. It’s why it’s vital it’s run from Glasgow not London.

    Curiously the Herald seems to be running the odd extra England or UK article, and perhaps it’s starting to position itself as a national newspaper in iScotland – in competition with the Scotsman which seems to be changing its pitch a bit. But I might be forgetting to take my rose coloured glasses off.

    Willie Rennie is getting annoyed with the Conservatives. Long may that continue.

  236. Grouse Beater says:

    Tinto: “Which was why it was so delightful in “Who Do You Think You Are?” that he [Paxman] discovered his grandmother was a poor Glaswegian with an interesting social life.”

    Now, that’s very funny indeed. I hadn’t heard of that. Is it really true? If so, I can dine out on it.

  237. Lochside says:

    Hamish 100 @ 7.01pm..I saw this broadcast and it was a bad as you describe. The BBC is on allout war on the SNP. I watched Mundell and Davidson being given free political broadcasts directly aimed at undermining the SG. with no right of reply.

    I tried to complain. But now you have to complain to a p.o. box in Durham or speak into a recorded message ‘leaving no personal details as no direct reply will be sent’…apparently it’s ‘transcribed ‘ and passed on to the ‘appropriate dept’.I spoke (calmly) for the allocated minute and was cut off.

    So now we have no right to comment on their blogs, we have no right to speak to a human being, we have no right to reply. What do you call this? Dictatorship?, Anti-Democratic?,..well I could go on. But I stopped paying the BBC tax long ago. So have many on this site. However, mass non payment would be better and public. But there is no enthusiasm it appears. Why? because the SNP play the softy softy approach and the ‘Yes’ campaign hasn’t even yet appeared to have come back to life.

    While the Tory bastards are planning to destroy our employment and human rights, while the SNP allow themselves to be traduced and slandered at every turn by the State media and press, while the self same ‘media cheer lead the fast collapsing pound and industry, we sit here talking to ourselves. Where is the populist leadership that we need? I’m tired of sensible suits talking platitudes. I want leadership to challenge these fascist scum ( 80% councils in England have cut social care for disabled people as the tories devolved it to them) as they try to destroy our children and grandchildren’s future. Or are we just going to allow the constant disempowerment of our identity and resources to continue unchallenged?

  238. Thepnr says:

    It’s interesting that David Torrence is arguing that there was no one on the NO side during the referendum saying that Scotland and England were a Union of equals.

    As shown above he lied, plenty did say that this was a Union of equals.

    However, he like you and I know that this is not the case it is far from a Union of equals when one countries decisions can run roughshod over an equal partners.

    Basically ha is telling us that this unequal Union has always been the case and that we Jocks just have to suck it up.

    The games a bogey. Torrence has spoken.

  239. Rock says:

    Lochside,

    “The BBC is on allout war on the SNP.”

    In my view, Scotland will not become independent until the BBC has been completely destroyed.

  240. Tinto Chiel says:

    Grouse Beater: re Mr Paxman and Glasgow family.

    I remember seeing it in the days when I watched live TV so it’s probably available on catch-up or an obscure channel/internet site.

    I think from memory she may have lived in Tollcross. There was certainly a scene in front of a red sandstone tenement. There’s a lot of nice ones in that area.

    Scunnered isn’t the word for his expression. Think Paxo would have preferred a blood transfusion at that juncture.

    Betcha some kind Winger will track it down.

  241. Col says:

    I can no longer post posts of any length. Bugs?

  242. Rock says:

    Nana,

    “I’m disappointed the national front page did not reference to Ruth’s scots thieves comment. That was a missed opportunity.”

    Lochside,

    “‘The National’ was in denial that there was any organised or obvious anti-Scottishness…this from a man who works in the media and lived through the disgusting attacks on us during the REF.”

    Iain More,

    “So the Brit Peso is on the slide again but even the National cant report general economic news correctly.”

    The National does not support independence and never did. It is a cashcow for the owners of The Herald to milk gullible independence supporters.

    It heavily promoted the Greens and RISE so that the SNP could be denied a majority. It did the unionists’ dirty work for them while it pretends to be “supporting independence”.

    The National is a Trojan horse.

    Only those who want The Herald to be kept alive should buy The National and The Sunday Herald.

  243. Thepnr says:

    Paxo’s gandmother as described on the telly “Who do you think you are?”

    No sign there of an “interesting social life”.

    “He was struck with admiration when he discovered that Mabel, his grandmother, left the Glasgow slums and joined the Salvation Army, who at that time assisted in the emigration of the poor.

    It emerged that Mary emigrated to Canada with six of her children, while Mabel stayed, settled in Yorkshire and gave birth to Joan, Jeremy’s mother.”

  244. galamcennalath says:

    “British nationalism is holding Scotland’s civic internationalism back”

    “Putting the Great back in Great Britain, making America great again – it makes my skin crawl and yet British nationalists with an astonishing lack of self awareness claim the Scottish independence movement is somehow linked to that style of thinking when in fact it is the antithesis to fascist nationalism”

    Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp hitting the nail!

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/british-nationalism-holding-scotlands-civic-internationalisation-back/

  245. Grouse Beater says:

    Tinto: “I remember seeing it”

    Well, you done me and others a great service pointing it up, considering Paxman’s derogatory description of Robert Burns and his poetry.

  246. Dr Jim says:

    This is not about informed oldies on here

    Our team’ll need to find a way to get the true information of what’s about to happen out to the pensioners who don’t keep up with events coz they’re the ones who voted NO the last time
    Problem is the media wont report what’s the truth so how does our team prove we’re telling the truth when the medias way of getting round it is either to report it just in time to be too late or make it sound like it was all the SNPs idea to take folks rights and remove bits of pensions

    We know that Liam Fox wants to remove the winter fuel allowance for pensioners
    We know the new bedroom tax plans for state pensioners
    But the media wont report it so how can it be made public

    We’ve got paedophiles, tax dodgers, thieves on a high level, complete and utter fraudsters running the UK and still the only thing the Scottish media concerns itself with is the invention of spurious lies and allegements against the SNP for the purposes of discrediting anything the Scottish government does or reporting things they should do which they know perfectly well are reserved matters

    If you get pensioners out to vote the right way, you win, coz as voters they’re dependable if they think it’s in their interest to do so

    We need a pensioner information MP and I’ve just thought of the very man for the job and it’s you (coz I know somebody will tell him they’ve read this) John Nicolson MP ex media man and all round Mr Pleasant guy

    Get our pensioners informed and telt which side their Utterly Butterly’s spread on
    Coz even if their sons or grandsons are shaven headed loyal tatooed no surrender bampots if they think their money’s going down they’ll vote the right way and lie about it later

    (Oh wiznae me son, did they win that Independence then aye… Ohuh)

  247. Thepnr says:

    Link if your interested https://archive.is/J0Fa5

  248. Dan Huil says:

    @Lochside 7:50pm

    I’ve said it before: what we need is a high-profile pro-indy supporter to publicly declare their non-payment of the bbc tax because of the bbc’s anti-Scottish bias. Some famous folk must read WOS. Come on!

  249. mr thms says:

    Amazing!

    http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/A-E-performance-2c64.aspx

    Which is why it is now ignored by newspapers, radio and tv news programmes

  250. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thepnr: No sign there of an “interesting social life”.

    That’s not how I remember the account of her time in Glasgow. Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong but it stuck in my mind at the time, unless my mind is going completely.

    In any case I wasn’t judging her but rather enjoying his phizog while in Glasgow. Didn’t he make some remark about smelling the drains and look all crestfallen?

    I certainly couldn’t be bothered watching HIM again.

  251. RogueCoder says:

    Attention Wingers!

    VILE CYBERNAT HOODIES NOW IN STORE! 🙂

    http://www.ayemail.scot/store/?model_number=VH1

  252. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thepnr: Thanks for the link to the episode summary. Doesn’t quite describe my remembered experience, though.

  253. Lochside says:

    Rock..I have had a ‘wait and see’ approach to the ‘National’. I buy it as it is the only paper with any positive stories and articles about scottish history. Yes it does miss the target..oddly..on many occasions, like today there was an opportunity to destroy tank commander’s reputation..again… as a self loathing anti-Scottish racist.

    I leave a copy on trains, buses, waiting rooms with the intention to convert curious potential soft no’s or uncommitted.Yes I’d like to see the Herald and Sunday Herald disappear, but we need some paper out there, becauuse like you I believe the BBC is a malevolent and poisonous openly hostile cancer in Scottish life. The fact that it was a member of the pro Better Together CBI during the REF campaign and did not disclose this or resign until ‘outed’ should khave led to a clear out at Pathetic Quay. Instead, we get more and more dupes being recruited, the execrable Lucy glottal stop’Scholand’ Adams re-appearing as she did in the ist REF and other English voices to bolster the Uncle Toms and Thomasinas like Jackie Byrd.

    But you and I are still asking the same question two years later…how do we destroy the BBC? Despite them robbing our contribution to their funds and getting only half of it back. Even the fitba lovers among us get less spent on our entire 42 clubs as Garry ‘crisps’ Lineker trousers every year. Can nothing galvanise either our leaders or our ‘Yes’ Organisations to mobilise a ‘can pay won’t pay’ campaign..just like the old Poll Tax campaign?

    Surely united we can win, divide or on our own we are invisible? I refused to pay the poll tax. I refuse to pay the BBC tax. Why don’t we get this started?

  254. heedtracker says:

    Not watching BBC Scotland creeps in action is good therapy. As for the National, vile separatists in Shetland are not at all impressed by National latest BP Claire field fuel spill coverage. National says its North Sea oil field spill, its not, its the Atlantic ocean and the National calls Shetland, the Shetlands. Why? who knows.

    They’re just hacks though. And if you’re out there Dave McEwan Hill, can the righteous “The National’s” ace stuff, perlease:D

  255. heedtracker says:

    FT says,

    “About £10bn in tax revenues and 71,000 jobs hinge on the outcome of the UK’s exit negotiations with the EU, according to a new report on the potential impact of Brexit on the financial sector.

    If the UK secures similar access to what it has now under the single market, Britain would lose £0.5bn a year in tax revenues and 4,000 jobs — both about 1 per cent of the current respective totals, according to the report by consultancy Oliver Wyman for TheCityUK, the lobby group that argued for remaining in the EU.”

    England’s grip on Scotland slowly tightens with Brexit, shock.

  256. tartanarse says:

    I watched the Paxo How Celtic Do You Not Realise You Are.

    I liked this programme as it usually consisted of “our favourite” English folk finding out that they were from Scotland, Wales or Ireland. Or Jewish.

    The Paxo episode was my favourite. I swear he also had family from Dundee. They too were skint.

    It utterly amazes me that folk don’t know where their ancestors came from.

  257. heedtracker says:

    In case you’re wondering… something happened in Edinburghs, Londons and Glasgows no doubt.

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/north-sea-oil-spill-heads-away-from-shetlands.23134

  258. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Bob Mack says at 6:35 pm

    Wonder how many column inches or seconds of VT will be devoted to this N Lanarkshire Labour Councillor you say has been charged with child pornography offences.

    Another Unionist who has been charged with an offence to compare against the SNP MPs/MSPs who have only been accused not even charged.

    You got a link to the story Bob?

  259. Tam Jardine says:

    Lochside

    Can I recommend you avoid the piece by former Dumfries Academy pupil Neil Oliver that’s on right now entitled “Scotland and the Klan” all about how Scotland gave birth to the Ku Klux Klan.

    It is an hour long programme (series?!?) where Neil Oliver is trying to make as many links between Scotland and the KKK.

    I suppose with all the bother with Yes supporters on twitter Neil has had he has an understanding of the persecution suffered by the slaves in the Old South.

    It would not surprise me if he produced a programme on GTA drawing links between Scotland and US gun massacres. Or a programme linking Sawney Bean to Jeffrey Dahmer. Or linking the SNP with Jim Jones and Jonestown.

    Best avoid for the sake of the blood pressure.

  260. Petra says:

    To my mind Willie Rennie has held the Scottish Political Uriah Heep Trophy for a number of years now. I thought it may get passed onto Mundell in the near future but no it’s now been awarded to Ruth Davidson: The Scottish Tory leader who’s a National DISGRACE.

    We’ve all spent decades complaining about and fighting off the drunken, thieving, aggressive, scrounging Scots stereotype, epitomised by Scots celebrities such as Billy Connolly and Lulu, to have it undone by Davidson, in England, in one fell swoop.

    ”We call her Big T in our household. Both Jen and I are quite short so we look up to you (May) in a very physical sense and a metaphorical sense.”

    Standing next to May on the platform she said “I’m delighted we have such spectacular surroundings. Usually they put the Scots in a place where nothing can be broken. Or stolen for that matter!”

    God it just beggars belief. If Nicola Sturgeon had come out with this it would have been trumpeted far and wide ….

    ”Nicola Sturgeon admits that Scots are a thieving bunch of vandals.” ….

    and yet not one newspaper (yes including The National) has had this on their front page. What’s happened to the Daily Record this weather? Given up on SLab like everyone else now?

    http://indyref2.scot/fury-as-ruth-davidson-compares-scots-to-vandals-and-thieves

    PS She was complaining to STV’s Colin MacKay (sooking up her backside) recently that he was asking her all the wrong questions and hadn’t mentioned anything about her ”GREAT Conference speech.” Anyone got a video of her yapping and grovelling at the Conference?

    ……….

    @ Jack Collatin says at 6:00 pm …. ”There is no doubt that there is an unspoken agenda permeating the newsrooms and studios of our MSM; a secret society, a Fifth Column, running through our institutions, companies, LA’s, and Newspapers and broadcasting, which is unquestionably pro Brit Unionism, and consider that because of their status, wealth, or position, that they can mount Project Fear, call on all the resources of the WM Government, and attack the Yes Movement with a vehement hatred and disdain for truth and justice.”……

    ……………

    @ Lochside says at 7:50 pm …. ”I saw this broadcast and it was a bad as you describe. The BBC is on all out war on the SNP. I watched Mundell and Davidson being given free political broadcasts directly aimed at undermining the SG. with no right of reply.” ….

    Spot on Jack and Lochside …. all in conjunction with Dictator May and henchman Fallon, big on Trident, having the future of the UK well thought through and all mapped out …. Snooper’s Charter, Gagging policy, decimation of the Human Rights Act, control of the media, full frontal attack on the SNP and Military Union Jack recruitment of youngsters, cannon fodder, across the UK. Meanwhile Scottish soldiers (including 2 young relatives of mine) are being sent down south or abroad and English sent to Scotland. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit, as a last resort, if they’ve made plans to invade Scotland if we get our Independence, take over Faslane and / or repress the ‘divisive Nationalists’.

    ……………

    @ Bob Mack says at 6:35 pm …. ”Just hearing that a N Lanarkshire Labour Councillor has been charged with child pornography offences. He was a main opponent of the named person scheme and constantly backed up Neil Findlay on Facebook against its introduction. Now we know why.”

    Thanks for that Bob. I’ll add it to my massively long list of Labour Party Sex Offenders. Wonder if it’ll be front page news tomorrow? On BBC or STV news?

    …………..

    @ heedtracker says at 4:38 pm …. ”Out of the mouths of babes.”

    http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-03/girl-5-gives-theresa-may-a-telling-off-about-the-homeless/

    A five year old that has an understanding of misery and war. Showing empathy and compassion; better still, for her/ our future, great passion. Makes you wonder what went wrong with the Westminster crew’s early upbringing that turned out a bunch of cruel, corrupt, callous narcissists. Boarding school for one?

    ……………

    Weegingerdug: Insightful and witty …. good for a laugh …. ”It’s time to grasp the thistle.”

    ”They’re going to tell us that we have a massive deficit and we’d have to make huge cuts to public spending, while the deficit of the UK soars and spending cuts come thick and fast. They’ll gloat about Scotland’s supposed poverty while hoping we never ask why we should remain with a criminally negligent Westminster that caused it. A Westminster that pissed away the oil, that farted out the gas, that’s allowing Scotland’s renewable potential to blow away in the wind.” ……

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/02/its-time-to-grasp-the-thistle/

  261. Big Jock says:

    Neil Oliver casualy linking the Scots to the slave trade in the US. We started the Kkk.We started the Us civil war. St Andrews flag is the same as confederate flag. See what happens when you Scots forget you are British.

    I am a modern third generation Scot from Eire originally and Catholic to boot. Linking Scotland with Southern US slave traders is lazy, deliberate and convenient for ultra Brit Oliver. Civic nationalism is modern Scotland. What is happening in England just now is old fashioned bigoted Unionism.

    Now fuck Off Oliver.

  262. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Lochside and Rock says:

    I’ve said previously that a ‘Don’t pay the propaganda tax’ campaign along the lines of the old Poll Tax campaign would be the ideal territory of Tommy Sheridan.

    Maybe one of the RIC worthies might step up and do something more constructive than splitting the SNP vote?

  263. Legerwood says:

    O/T

    Diane James has ‘quit’ as UKIP leader according to report in Daily Telegraph

  264. Bob Mack says:

    @Jockanese Wind Talker,

    Amazingly it seems to be on the BBC website news from Scotland.

  265. Glamaig says:

    The Labour councillor charged with child porn offence is on the BBC Scottish section webpage. As expected, the headline does not mention his party affiliation, further down the article says ‘Scottish Labour have suspended David Fagan’.

    If I could be bothered I would do a trawl of all Scottish politician in trouble articles and tally up which ones mentioned the party in the headline, and which party it was. I think I know what the results would be.

    GA Ponsonby needs a full-time team working for him, there is so much material to analyse.

  266. call me dave says:

    Scottish Labour councillor arrested over child pornography offences

    A council spokesman said: “This is a matter for the courts.”

    https://archive.is/8tcjY

  267. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Petra @ 21:20,

    Ca’ canny, dear Winger, there’s a small but important difference between being charged and being convicted. Not everyone has a “small island of lawyers” awaiting a snap of the fingers, but still, even we vile cybernats must observe the proprieties…

  268. Tinto Chiel says:

    Regarding Mr Oliver and his KKK/Scotland programme…..

    The whole flag thing seems pretty bogus, as Scot Finlayson mentioned on an earlier thread:

    http://history.furman.edu/benson/civwar/show/MilesFlagLetter.htm

  269. handclapping says:

    It had to happen – due to the fall in Stirling the Uk is no longer the 5th largest economy. “We”‘ve been overtaken by the French and Brexit hasn’t even started yet 🙁 (HT FT)

  270. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Glamaig @ 21:35,

    I know exactly what you mean. Ach, it was the same darn thing with the recent PFI school wall collapse debacle.

    Millions are continually being sucked out of public funds into private pockets (some even offshore) thanks to El Gordo and his willing North British minions. None of it ever getting a mention. And BLiS have the effrontery to complain about SNP austerity!

  271. Lochside says:

    Tam J @ 9.19..I have no intention of watching this fabricated pish fronted by the tonsurial tosser. This shameless shit shoveller happily exchanging his homeland’s repuation for a bribe.

    As discussed on a previous thread, the Scots and the Scots-Irish were settled in many parts of the Eastern States. They fought on both sides. The Confederate flag originally was a copy of the US one and due to confusion in battle, went through several changes and ended up as the saltire design ‘Stars and Bars’ design. Major Roberts and others are on historical record that it was based on the St. Andrews cross. Why? because of their lineage not because of their racist leanings or not.
    The flag was a ‘Battle Flag’. It was usurped by racists in all US states throughout the 20th century. In the same way that the Union Jack has been usurped by racists in the UK.

    Oliver epitomises the Scottish cringing, crawling scumbag scrabbling about in the dirt for his beloved Union. He was an archaeologist after all so eating dirt must appeal to him. To use a term common on the plantations that Oliver no doubt blames squarely on Scots ‘racists’..he is an unadulterated Uncle Tom. A pathetic house boy , betrayer of his people and vassal to his masters. I hope he can still look himself in the mirror and see past his precious locks and see the face of a slave staring back at him.

  272. Proud Cybernat says:

    Question.

    When the SG presents the Indyref#2 Bill in Holyrood, just how much will the British Establishment pay the Greens to vote against it?

    And will the Greens be bought? Is that why the Colonial Media (including, I am disappointed to say, the National) pushed the Greens so hard during SE2016? To divide the indy vote and buy off the Greens when it really matters?

    Yeah – I’m a conspiracy buff but I wouldn’t put this past and of them. Big stakes.

  273. Liz g says:

    OT sorry
    Quick question for a conversation I am having.

    Does anyone here know if it’s the European Human Rights Act that protects the right to parade/march as an expression of Kulture?

  274. Lochside says:

    Andrew Maclean @ 10.04..please note the date of the letter 1861. The flag described was actually an upright flag. If you search there are sites that show the evolution of the flag into a proper St. Andrews cross…. The point is…Scots should not be ashamed of even remote links with this flag. It was never intended to be used by bigoted pointy headed sheet wearing murderers of black people. It represented the army of the Southern States seceding from the Union.

    If we allow ourselves to end up defending blatant untruths about this flag’s significance..then we end up with a re-run of Operation Fear. What next? William Wallace was a thief and murderer of innocent English soldiers?…oh I forgot the History Channel already did that one.

  275. Big Jock says:

    Oliver was almost salivating when the redneck he spoke to said it was about blood and kin. Oliver described it as nationalism. Again what England is doing to itself at the moment is about inward nationalism.

    What the SNP and the majority of Scotland wants is civic,open and equality with other nations.

    Oliver even after Brexit just can’t see past England. Because he is a unionist bigot.

  276. Big Jock says:

    Liz correct. The Orange marches can’t be banned under Eu law. Oh the irony the most bigoted group in Scotland could be banned by their English masters actions!

  277. heedtracker says:

    Lochside says:
    4 October, 2016 at 10:02 pm
    Tam J @ 9.19..I have no intention of watching this fabricated pish fronted by the tonsurial tosser.

    Its all about the money to guys like Oliver and “because their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers.” Questions also bubble up like why do BBC creeps so enjoy this kind of Scotch cringe obedient retainer Neil Oliver style?

    UKOK neo fascism’s annoyed at John Cleese though. Tom Harris does his little cringer dance for the torygraph but christ is he one thick SLab failure.

    http://archive.is/r1wLq

  278. Watch this!

    newsnet.scot/archive/fury-at-bbcs-anti-scottish-broadcast/

  279. Liz g says:

    Big Jock @ 10.23
    Thanks Big Jock……. have managed to stoap laughing long enough to reply.

  280. Tinto Chiel says:

    Andrew McLean: yes, W.P. Miles’ letter is pretty conclusive, since he designed it. Still seems to be rewriting of history in the States too, judging from the surrounding comments.

    I’m afraid Neil Oliver is simply beneath contempt and, as has been said before, is not a historian.

    I was quite annoyed by Basil Fawlty’s comments at the weekend but it does describe sell-outs like Messrs. Oliver and Mr Torrance perfectly. They’re like wee spaniels trying very hard to please their masters but they’ll never be accepted as equals.

    It’s a wee shame for them, soanitis.

  281. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Some of the stuff appearing via Twitter re the Tory conference is just insane.

    The fuckers know they have carte blanche for the foreseeable future, haven’t a clue about Brexit, care less, and are rolling out the Master Plan for The Plebs.

    If we don’t fight these Tory bastards then we’ll have no-one to blame when we see our own weans, neighbours and friends being ground into the mire and/or just giving up the ghost.

    I’m not much of a one for ‘inspirational quotes’ and all that kind of stuff, but here’s one I encountered today and it seems apt:

    ‘I was sitting at home and had a profound experience. I experienced, in all of my Being, that someday I was going to die, and it wouldn’t be like it had been happening, almost dying but somehow staying alive, but I would just die! And two things would happen right before I died: I would regret my entire life; I would want to live it over again. This terrified me. The thought that I would live my entire life, look at it, and realize I blew it forced me to do something with my life.’

    Who said that? Any guesses?

    I’ll happily engrave a shaved coconut by way of award for the first correct answer, but I’d be a lot happier if you copy-paste that quote, send it to apathetic friends/loved ones, and impress upon them the magnitude of what we’re now facing.

    Not to be melodramatic, but it really does feel like we’ve entered the endgame. Not all of us will still be here at the other end of it (if for no other reason than natural wastage) but there should be no doubt about where we now are – the Tories, whilst cornered and frightened by circumstances of their own making, will make sure that the weakest of us are used to absorb whatever punishment’s heading their way.

    ‘No mischief if they fall…’

    Plus ca change, eh?

  282. Fred says:

    Anent the Paxo family tree, his family lived in Oatlands in what at the time was a pretty good tenement (compared to Fred’s ancestral pile!) The grandfather was a Dundonian janitor? & the grannie an English lady who had a child some time after her husbands demise. Delayed implantation wasn’t mentioned but a search at the Mitchell came up with the very letter in which some anonymous busy-body grassed up the grannie to the authorities. A deflated Paxo muttered “Bastards” & slumped over the table, but who he was referring to wasn’t made clear!

  283. Valerie says:

    Lochside @ 10.02

    Powerful post, well said. Personally, I find people like this with no principles, or chameleon like principles, abhorrent.

    I’m trying to follow the Tory conference, but my reaction to these people is so emotional, I can barely listen and interpret.

    That shallow little shit, Fluffy, put on a podium like a dancing monkey, to denigrate and put down Scotland. Disgusting.

  284. Capella says:

    I googled it Ian.
    Watched the BBC Alaba programme “Hamish” about Hamish Henderson. Brilliant bio of a larger than life Scotsman. It’s available on the iPlayer for 24 days so get along to a licence payer’s TV and watch it. That was one life well lived.

  285. Still Positive. says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 10.40

    I said to my son this evening, “You wouldn’t believe the sh*te coming out of the Tory Conference today.” He replied, “I would.” Forgot he catches up on Twitter on the bus home.

    It is unbelievable in a way. No-one is safe except the super-rich.

    Some of us ordinary mortals might just scrape by but the vast majority won’t.

    I’ve been saying for a while now it is almost Dickensian but now it really will be.

    We really need that lifeboat to independence. Feel sorry for those in England who have no such hope.

  286. silver19 says:

    OT: It maybe satire from the 80’s but you can imagine the Tories may as well be saying this at their conference in 2016.

    https://twitter.com/MrKenShabby/status/783417436662013952

  287. Proud Cybernat says:

    Taking a tankin’…

    http://imgur.com/a/b1jTc

  288. HandandShrimp says:

    I was a bit taken aback by Cleese’s comments but given that they were aimed at loyal Unionists the irony was not lost on me.

    I was left thinking that it was one for the Andrew Neils and Neil Olivers to deal with, not me.

    I didn’t watch the Oliver thing. I haven’t found his recent outings all that interesting. He needs to get back to archaeology and leave social history to people that are experts in that field.

  289. Tinto Chiel says:

    Excellent quotation, Ian. I agree about the approach of endgame. We are coming to a huge crisis and I fear the ruthlessness and bad faith of the Establishment. Even with a legal and successful Indyref2 I’m not sure if we’ll escape scaithless.

    I would offer you Cicero’s wisdom on those who sell out their country but it wouldn’t get past the Rev’s Massey Ferguson filter, so here it is:

    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/33210-a-nation-can-survive-its-fools-and-even-the-ambitious

    So it was Oatlands, Fred. I remember some nice sandstone tenements just up from the bowling green on the way to Shawfield. The Cooncil spent a fortune renovating them in the 90s, I think, only to knock them down a few years later. Very strange.

  290. Bob Mack says:

    @Nana,

    Thanks for those links Nana. Truly chilling. It seems almost dreamlike to think this country is listing foreigners working for companies on a collective database. I cannot help comparing it to the Third Reich. Every action they now take is akin to Hitlers Germany.
    The English have literally gone cuckoo.

  291. Legerwood says:

    In Northern Ireland a court case is starting to re Brexit but at the same time the DUP seems to be offering their support to the Tories in return for some sort of deal re Brexit and borders etc.

    http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/tories-increase-majority-dup-deal/33628

    The DUP leader was pro-Leave if I have remember correctly but NI voted Remain.

    Interesting times.

  292. K1 says:

    Aye Nana, it’s all getting a bit blood and soil nationalism as I said up thread.

    We’ve now officially entered the political twilight zone…if Scotland does not wake up…we’re fucked.

  293. yesindyref2 says:

    @HandandShrimp
    Oliver can’t go back to archaeology, the stones threw him out for being too emotionless, the mummies for being too stuffed with himself, the tombs for being too lifeless and the ruins for being all over the place.

  294. Robert Louis says:

    Ahhh, Oliver the ‘talentless BBC unionist puppet’. I caught the start of a trailer for his latest anti Scotland rubbish on the propagandist BBC last night. It started with phraseology along the lines of ‘Scots throughout history have had an important influence all over the world, but Neil Oliver looks at the dark side of it’.

    All I can say is, of course he does. Ever wonder why a third rate presenter keeps getting soooo many commissions for programmes by the BBC.

    I just find it sad that some Scots will sell their very soul to the anti-Scotland BBC and London, for so little. Here’s a packet of smarties, Neill, now away and slag off Scotland again – and do your really emphatic Scotch drawl too. Make it sound ‘Scottishy’.

  295. Dr Jim says:

    Seeing as how big mouth Ruth Davidson says the FM doesn’t speak for Scotland will she not be asking any questions of the FM this thursday, and if she does will she be expecting answers from our unimportant FM

    Big mouth Ruth Davidson also says the FM is deliberately stirring up trouble between the English and the Scots which reminded a few of us of the Tory GE campain posters of Alex Salmond picking the pockets of the English voter

    Remember “Don’t let the SNP steal your cash” and a big big foty of Alex bending over picking an english mans pocket

    But we’re all too stupid to remember that eh

  296. yesindyref2 says:

    the artefacts for being too arty and no facts, the …

  297. K1 says:

    Looks like it’s confirmed that wumin who became the UKIP leader has resigned. It would seem like Farage is still technically the ‘official leader’ of UKIP.

    Herself’s statement:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ct9Be5sW8AQumBr.jpg

    Darren McCaffrey ?@DMcCaffreySKY 2h2 hours ago
    THIS IS NOT A JOKE: UKIP source telling me @Nigel_Farage could technically STILL be leader as @DianeJamesMEP papers not submitted properly.

  298. Col says:

    Can someone please tell me when we start taking the bbc on? The time for action on all fronts is now I feel. We need to go on the offensive if we’re gonna win indyref2.
    That’s where we failed the last time was it not? I feel it was. Forget “I feel”
    It was where we failed!

  299. mr thms says:

    Brent Crude is worth $50 a barrel at the moment, and the pound today is worth $1.27.

    That’s £39.37 a barrel.

    A year ago it was it was slightly less than $50 but at that time the pound was worth around $1.55

    Or £32.25 a barrel.

    That is a big increase in the VALUE of a barrel of oil of around £7 for the oil companies.

    Apparently oil and gas production has increased since last year

  300. Grouse Beater says:

    Lochside: “I leave a copy on trains, buses, waiting rooms with the intention to convert curious potential soft no’s or uncommitted.”

    That made me smile, Lochside. Sounds a bit like ET, leaving M&Ms on the stair treads to entice aliens in.

    🙂

  301. Robert Louis says:

    Just looking at tomorrow’s English newspaper headlines, and having listened to parts of the Tory conference, am I alone in being extremely concerned at the direction England is going in? This just feels like a dark period of history repeating itself. It feels like it is accelerating, too.

    A fascist state rarely happens overnight, it happens by stages, drip, drip, drip. Little by little, more and more extreme thoughts and language become acceptable. More and more draconian policies introduced to follow through.

    Where is the Labour party in England? What are they doing? Why are they not tackling this head on? Wake up, people of England. Wake up Labour, FFS, wake up.

  302. Grouse Beater says:

    Dr Jim: “We need a pensioner information MP

    If society currently – but not indefinitely – is top heavy with ‘sixties baby boomers’ maybe that’s a good idea.

  303. mike cassidy says:

    Ian Brotherhood 10.40

    It was Hubert Selby Jr

    http://archive.is/JnOQX

  304. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @mike cassidy –

    😉

    Soo-perb.

    Well done that man.

    What message would you like engraved on the coconut?

  305. Nana says:

    @Bob Mack

    It’s frightening how fast England has changed. Feel really sorry for the decent people caught up in all this hatred. I blame the media.

    I am seeing a lot of folk on social media joining the snp, others saying they are moving here from England and a lot calling for indy2. Saw one tweet earlier saying it looked like the tories next step will be closing our parly. Would they be that stupid?

  306. Liz g says:

    I am really concerned about the Headline telling us about the new Trident Sub’s being built with French Steel.

    They know we are highly likely to have another referendum and
    soon.
    They know we will go this time.
    Why continue building Sub’s they have no place to put.
    This worries me because I wonder if they think that they are going to hold on to Faselane.
    Am I the only one reading it like that?

    Thanks for the links Nanna.

  307. Bob Mack says:

    @Nana,

    Yes Nana, I do believe that closing the Scottish Parliament may well be on the to do list. May has taken the tough line with everything else, so why not this?
    If that happens,then all bets are off.
    England ,fanned by politicians and press is fast becoming a Fascist State. Everything they do now,Hitler did in the 1930’s. I for one would have to think very carefully how I responded to that eventuality.

  308. Valerie says:

    @Robert Louis

    No, you are not the only one. I’m bricking it. I’m terrified we won’t get a referendum and win it.

    Scotland is fcked if we are not independent. The direction of travel coming out of this conference is utterly horrifying. Those front pages posted by Nana above are unbelievable.

    NOT ONE WORD FROM CORBYN.

  309. Col says:

    Indyref2, that made me laugh so hard lol. You are a legend.

  310. Robert Louis says:

    Just imagine how it feels, if you are a nice law abiding, tax paying, person who happens to have been born in another country. You have lived here most of your life, and contribute to your community. Then you go to work tomorrow, and on the way, catch all the xenophobic newspaper headlines.

  311. louis.b.argyll says:

    Lucky me..forgot to watch the aforementioned N.Oliver opinion piece..
    Thereby maintaining my current IQ,unlike anyone who trusts anything he says.

  312. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian Brotherhood: “Well done that man.”

    Do you not find Selby’s outlook a little too bleak to be comfortable? ‘Requiem’ isn’t the novel I’d read the night before preparing for a tough week’s work!

  313. Dr Jim says:

    @Grouse Beater

    We still have a large section of pensioner society who don’t have computers or personal devices and only read the front page the adverts and the sports bits and maybe do half a crossword of their chosen newspaper, which we know isn’t the National (far too dangerous SNP thing) but their entire grasp of what’s going on is the front page (That’s why papers as you know stick the main message up and hell with the rest coz nobody reads that far)

    The rest of their news is Jackie Bird and they believe it
    that’s why I figured maybe up to about ten years we should have somebody, part of who’s job it would be to get the right information to them

    I confess I don’t myself know how it could be done but there must be smarter media types than me who can find a way to navigate through the difficulties
    I know it can’t be leaflets because the other side can do that as well so self defeating on that

    We have more money in the SNP than the opposition does unless Westminster coughs up for Big Mooth Rooth

    But I do think somebody like Johnny Nicolson’s perfect for it, I’ve not seen an old dear who doesn’t like him, sexist I know, but hey

  314. Bob Mack says:

    I wonder if all the pensioners in Scotland who lost fathers ,brothers and loved ones during the war,realise that The UK is becoming the very devil that these men gave their lives to stop.
    I listened in horror as two journalists reviewing the papers tonight blithely skimmed over these stories and justified these actions. Dear God.

  315. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    I wouldn’t worry, from uk parliament “Under changes introduced in the 2015 SDSR, the first SSBN is now expected to enter service in the early 2030s.”.

    So timetable, Indy Ref 2 say 2018, Indy 2020 (holding pen in EU meanwhile), 10 years to move Faslane / Coulport to Milford Haven or Devonport + Burghfield, first Successor is still being built, with 2 to 3 years spare.

    http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7353

  316. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Would they be that stupid?”

    “This worries me because I wonder if they think that they are going to hold on to Faselane.”

    I think all bets are off regarding common sense/rationality/morality ablow the dyke now Brexit approaches. I mentioned “bad faith” up the thread and that’s what I think we’re up against.

    Nana: something on O/T to cheer you up I hope if you’re still feeling a bit off colour. Sorry it’s not George Clooney for you.

  317. ScottishPsyche says:

    It seems that today the Tories have revealed who they really are. They have declared their hand, they are outUkipping UKIP.

    The UK has become a overnight truly frightening place to live. Is this what those who previously voted No wanted? Surely they must see the it is not Scottish Independence that is the enemy now?

  318. Grouse Beater says:

    Capella: “Watched the BBC Alaba about Hamish Henderson. Brilliant bio of a larger than life Scotsman.”

    I agree. Must be a repeat, though. I saw it some time ago.

  319. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Well, probably launched and getting sea trials in 2030, it’d take at least 2 years before being fully commissioned by the RN.

  320. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Grouse Beater –

    🙂

    Yeah. Selby’s very much an acquired taste.

    What I love about the guy is that he was given a TB-related death-sentence aged 15, had to work out what to do with his life and thought, ‘well, I know the alphabet, so why can’t I be a writer?’

    And he did it. And he lived to be 75!

  321. Meg merrilees says:

    Robert Louis @11.44pm

    Re the Rise of Fascism in England and 4th October anniversary of the Cable Street riot.

    Contrast the powerful article on Canary ( see Nana’s link at 11.41) where a 101 year old man narrates how he fought against the fascists and police to defend freedom whilst on BBC R4 I heard Nicholas Moseley – son of- talking about his father’s side of things for 5 minutes. (5.25 -5.30pm – when driving home. ) Switched it off in disgust!
    Apparently, Oswald may have decided to turn round and not unleash his black shirts on the Jews because he had to be in Berlin two days later to marry his mistress at Goebbels house with Hitler as a guest. Nothing to do with the barriers and hundreds of normal people protesting! Are we supposed to think that Fascists are nice people after all? Maybe the protestors were just ‘divisive nationalists’?

    Really scary how quickly South Britain is sinking into the mud and even more scary how much the BBC is muddying the water.
    So much for the ‘Nation shall speak Peace unto Nation’ ethos of Lord Reith – all going out with the bath water!

    O/T read that Ruth Davidson gave her strongest hint yet that she is eyeing a position as an MP in the future and mentioned something about a standing invitation to join May’s cabinet… but only after she has finished the job she still has to do!

    Lord help us!

  322. ronnie anderson says:

    Hi People’s

    On the way back from Skye this weekend Mitch & myself stopped at Willie McCrea memorial ( what a bloody disgrace) but had to walk back from the lay-by at the top of the hill,a big ditch has been scooped out of the type 1 to stop access for cars,

    I will be taking this up with Lochaber Dist Council I hope that Wingers would do the same + bring this to the attention of their MSPs

  323. dakk says:

    Hadn’t watched the ‘News’ for a while but I do notice a sharp upturn in overt anti EU rhetoric and casual xenophobia from the likes of Home Secretary Amber Rudd, Cleese and May.

    Even a vile separatist Scottish nazi like myself has some discomfiture listening to our fully educated more civilized superiors in the South having open season on the foreigners.

    Perhaps even non English Brits living in England can expect some fall out from this upsurge in English/British Nationalism.

    Maybe even people living in tenements in England.I know Bath has some lovely tenements near the Recreation Ground.

    Watch your back Stuart,Cleese says her teas oot !

  324. yesindyref2 says:

    @Col
    Thanks 🙂

  325. Grouse Beater says:

    Dr Jim: “The rest of their news is Jackie Bird and they believe it”

    Fair observation.

    There’s a confidence in BBC newsreader delivery style.

    Until BBC Scotland’s evening politics show appeared I’ve always felt STV’s front of house staff immature. There’s something weak in their delivery that has me question whether they know their subject, or have swotted up on it only a few hours before the interview.

    It would be nice to see any of them, BBC or STV, sustain a discussion without the need of notes on a clipboard. I mean, generally, political interviews last less than seven minutes. How many notes do you need for short interviews?

  326. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian Brotherhood: “And he lived to be 75!”

    I’m aiming for 105! After that you tend to be gaga and useless to anybody but the assisted toilet. I’m guessing daughters hope sooner so they can get their hands on the property – just kiddin’.

  327. Nana says:

    @Tinto Chiel Thanks I liked that, nice and mellow for this time of night. Brought my BP down a little.

    George looks too soft, he’d be no use wielding a pitchfork.

  328. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2
    Thanks for the reassurance.
    Why do you think it needs ten years to move it?
    Sorry if I am being a pain about it but I and everything I care about live in the blast zone of that thing.
    Also who would control the area it’s self,cause I thought we were going to be needing it?
    Thanks in advance.

  329. mike cassidy says:

    For those expressing despair about the future,

    just think its only ten years ago this week that David Cameron was selling the Tories as the sunshine party.

    http://archive.is/3reEr

  330. bugsbunny says:

    Now this is what I call a real reporter telling it, as it is. Can you imagine Jackie Birds face if she saw this live?

    Reporter gets angry and tells us the REAL news

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syjp9lsWBhc

  331. manandboy @6.15
    I am acutely aware that I walk on eggshells when I challenge the traditions and Establishment Firmament in relation to Self Determination, and highlight the unshakable resolve of the Oligarchy to stifle any challenge to their historic supremacy.
    The Self Determination drive continues to force the Scottish Tenement semi educated retainers, the North Britons, who historically have ruled the roost Up Here, while blithely maintaining complete control of our country’s wealth, and institutions.
    We still have belted earls who have fenced off great tracts of Scotland, vast holiday parks for the Royals, Nobility, and the filthy rich to shoot deer and grouse for fun, a Finance Sector within the pale surrounding Edinburgh, who flog Pay Day loans, at crooked money lender rate of 1200%, to folk who are on zero hours, low paid, slave labour conditions, and an Upper Middle Class, handed down from father to son, mother to daughter, through private education, Universities,golf clubs, and membership of the right societies and clubs, centuries old and unassailable, who dominate Top of the Office in all professions, be it the judiciary, accountancy, banking, newspapers, broadcasting, or Unionist Tory Politics.
    Hence my reference to an unspoken but unshakable ‘secret’ pact, a nexus of the ‘haves’, who hold roughly 5 million Scots in their Unionist grip, despite the destruction, loss of life, erosion of our civic society, that such elitism visits upon our nation.
    Mundell at Conference today typifies this arrogance.
    Davidson also got a freebee from the UK State broadcaster. They were queuing up to see her, so they were.
    Tony Blair’s New Labour was merely Red Toryism. Portillo admitted the other evening that the Tories couldn’t ‘lay a glove on’ New Labour because Blair and Brown were more right wing than the Blue Tories at the time.
    We are in the 21st century, and young Scots will be barred from Europe, and forced to howk tatties or do without.
    We are going backwards, and I have no doubt that this Final Solution is being endorsed and actively propagated by the Scottish Establishment, not so much as to preserve a status quo, but to plunge us back into the Dark Ages of serfdom. I’ll shut up now.

  332. bugsbunny says:

    BTW, that was satire. It was so real, I thought it was an out take. Turns out it’s a performance. Pity. I thought someone had lost the rag or something, on a pre recorded news item. If this was real, I suppose said out take would not be on youtube.

  333. Sandy says:

    Grousebeater,
    Why not take time out & write a biography of Torrence. After all, it shouldn’t come to too many pages.
    Alternatively, a book entitled “Torranceisms”.
    We all enjoy a good laugh. Money raised from sales could subsequently be used for advertising book 2 of the series, perhaps, in The Herald. (Revenue for same, needs all the cash it can get, if only to pay for it’s funeral.

  334. Grouse Beater says:

    Sandy: “Why not take time out & write a biography of Torrence. After all, it shouldn’t come to too many pages.”

    Ha ha! 🙂

    Just dashed this off for amusement: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-6Fp

  335. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    I’ll have to check it out, because it’s a bit strange if steel is being cut tomorrow but first to enter service is early 30s. Even with a 5 year build to launch hull, and 2 years to commission there’s nearly 10 years out there somehow. It could be a lot of the design just isn’t done yet, old style MOD. Anyways.

    During Indy Ref 1 the usual bluff and swagger – from both sides, UK saying it would need 20 years, CND 2 days, Francis Tusa of RUSI saying the warheads could be moved quite quickly and stored in Burghfield with a renewed nuclear licence which it certainy has now, and Milford Haven used for the boats, though missile warhead mating and loading would take a lot longer to set up. But it was Hammond said it would need 10 years minimum, so that for me became the realistic timetable for a maximum, though we’d been talking about that before. Faslane is not the problem, it’s the Coulport part.

    Salmond & Co did hint at a transitional stage, as the MOD needed less space, the SDF could take over and build up Faslane. I think it could have worked then, but the media and the Conservatives themselves have stirred up a lot of anti-Scottish feeling, so it’s less likely now. The answer to that of course is – you’ve got 5 years, not 10, now b*g*r off, but it probably still will happen after the YES, as reality sinks back in and cool heads take over.

    Problem is the Tories are running around like headless chickens over Brexit, let alone Sexit (from UK), so there may be no cool heads, or even heads at all, just talking heads. And Fallon 🙁 Ho hum.

  336. Petra says:

    Thanks for the ’employment’ links Nana. Horrendous but not surprising. Most of us have been aware of what’s going on (fascism / nazism / racism) and have some idea of what’ll be coming next.

    We’ll be near the top of the agenda, of course, as we’re seen to be a threat to the State. We can’t be sickened or thrown out of the UK, like the poor beggars who have been scapegoated / are being targeted right now, but the scapegoating of Independence supporters will exacerbate.

    On a positive note they’re going too far, too soon, and even the most politically unenlightened Scot will see through this and be as horrified as we are. If anything, imo, this is the type of behaviour that will strengthen our support. What too of the Unions, Labour Party, Libdems and any half decent journalists that may be out there? What are they going to do about this?

    Yesindyref2 mentions a timeline that includes relocating Trident to England (or Wales) but this is a major part of the problem and why we are SUCH a threat …. there is NO suitable location for Trident down south (check out CND / Nuclear info sites). This is why the Admiralty visited Gibraltar in early 2015. Visited to establish if Trident could be relocated there. They were given short shift. Spain also told them to back off due to the proximity to their mainland and dangers of having nuclear weapons at all. All right for the Scots right enough!

    If we get our Independence and they don’t or can’t enforce Faslane / Coulport / the Clyde as an English Military base / area due say to International ire / objections the subs will be returned to the US. Now they can’t envisage that for one moment. Too wee, poor, stupid England in the eyes of the World / UN / NATO and that is why they’ll stop at nothing to prevent us from getting our Independence at all.

    Interesting to see in the link Indyref posted that Trident accounts for 30,000 jobs / 850 companies in the supply chain. 99% of both relating to England no doubt and they wonder why we want our Indpendence!

    As to our Parliament. Permanence was part of the vow and advocated by Smith however the final outcome following knockback of amendments was that if the majority of Scots don’t want it, it’ll be dissolved. Alongside this Forsyth as a member of a constitutional committee has been looking for ways to get around this. Two more years of this carry on to go? If they keep this up we might find ourselves in the position of getting out long before then.

    ……………

    @Robert at 9:41pm ….”Ca’ Canny” …….

    You’re right Robert. Jumping the gun a bit there.

  337. manandboy says:

    Today, England changed.

  338. Dr Jim says:

    Half my family are from Wolverhampton in the Midlands and they’re all racists but they never knew they were, they always thought to refer to foreigners in a derogatory way was pretty normal same with even me and our Scottish branch, but to them they think it is banter

    I wonder what folk down there are going to think of themselves now that all the Newspapers the Tories and the Telly are trumpeting blatant Nazi headlines and statements like the ones we’ve heard today and we’re all going to see tomorrow

    I never thought I would see the day in England where open support for this behaviour would be cheered on as the right thing to do, it’s no wonder Cameron got off his mark quick from this shower he must have known the agenda to scarper so quickly

    Stig Able on tonights Sky papers review says it’s not the economy anymore the people don’t care if they’re going to be worse off they just want rid of the foreigners (as he throws his hands in the air in disbelief) with thon wummin that always sounds drunk lapping it all up as if it’s great and good to be racist while she reminds us of how she used to not be able to say racist stuff and now she can

    Help ma boab!

  339. yesindyref2 says:

    @Petra
    The UK Government would like us to believe there is no suitable site for relocating the deterrent, because they want it kept here, and the CND would like us to believe the same thing because they want it scrapped completely, not moved. Neither is right.

    Milford Haven is deepwater, but near a refinery, and would need a lot of work, but is suitable. The refinery in fact was closed in 2015, sold, and now is petroleum storage. Perhaps that was part of a contingency plan, who knows.

    I checked out Devonport thoroughly, and there is land that could be CPO’d quite cheaply I think, far enough away, as is Coulport. Devonport itself is of course suitable for subs – it takes Astutes already. The facilities would have to be extended. Transport to Burghfield is a whole lot shorter, and a change of procedures could make storage facilities of Coulport unneccesary. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

    Either way there would be public protests, environmenatlists, bird and wildlife. Well, it’s national security, shuddupayourface! Here, have some funds.

  340. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 3.19
    That’s very interesting I had the same information as Petra,that any other possible site’s had been so developed by now there was indeed no where for it to go

    I see what your saying and agree that we should say 5yrs and get out,but would still want the warheads gone as soon as possible.

    Five years…FFS me and Nana could carry them out the country faster,just tell us where to stick them, be precise.

  341. Onwards says:

    It’s ironic is that the increase in population due to immigration, mainly in England, has helped the UK to maintain clout internationally.
    Including holding onto a permanent place in the UN security council and the status of “5th largest economy” that Brexiters kept going on about.

  342. yesindyref2 says:

    Unionists had a two-pronged attack with Faslane by the way. One saying “nowhere to put the nukes, the UK is doomed if Scotland goes Indy” aimed at the UK and nuke sympathisers. The other “UK will forcibly lease the land for 30 years / forever, it’ll be UK soil so there” aimed at Indy supporters. Which is why I took a lot of time checkingit out, including google maps 🙂

    Another one the Unionists used was air defence against those pesky Russians. Apparently the UK would move QRA North to England, no problem, loads of RAF bases. Well, I checked that out, again with google maps for each RAF base, and there were just two bases it could be moved to without a whole load of digging, work and even CPO, one not far north of Coningsby I forget which, the other – Coningsby itself. Nowhere suitable anywhere further north. QRA North from the South? I don’t think so. So basically the UK would want to keep Lossiemouth on some sort of terms, at least, I think so.

  343. yesindyref2 says:

    Forgot, nice QRA map on this. Mmm, doesn’t archive well, so here’s the DT link in bits – connect them up!

    http://www.tele

    graph.co.uk/

    news/uknews/defence/11858639/raf-typhoon-pilots-defend-britain.html

  344. Liz g says:

    Yesindiref2
    What’s QRA ?

  345. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2
    Understand QRA now
    Sorry to have taken up so much of your time,you have been kind… Thank You.

  346. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    The UK Government was always saying “We have no plan to relocate Trident because Independence won’t happen”. But the SNP have been in Government since 2007, and if the MOD don’t have at least an outline plan for moving the base then heads should roll, somewhere. I always presume they do have a plan, and dusted off the covers when the Ref was announced – or when the SNP were elected a majority Government in 2011.

    Goven a straight choice, I’d probably go for Milford Haven. Less developed than Devonport and less busy, but (MOD mode) it’s only the Welsh and they need the jobs.

  347. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2
    I always thought that they were either planning to keep Faselane or were bluffing about no other plans.
    But even after such a close call with us turn’s out they didn’t actually plan for Brexit,so who knows.

    The simple solution as I see it was for them to try to hang on to Faselane,cause I think they underestimated how hated Trident is here.
    But more than that I don’t think many would be comfortable with a military base being kept by the British considering our history and our desire to be a defence only country.
    I thought it was very clever of Alex Salmond to ear mark it for our Navy.
    Don’t think Cameron would have tried to keep it by force ,but May and her Minions are a whole different matter,so in a way it’s good to know that they do have somewhere for it.

  348. Breeks says:

    Makes you so proud of Britain eh?

    http://www.euronews.com/2016/10/04/uk-plans-to-exempt-soliders-from-european-convention-on-human-rights

    So does this mean when we murder people with drones, the guy with his finger on the joystick is safe from prosecution? I’m sure that’s a weight off his mind.

    The UK also plans to block an EU Army on the grounds it will undermine NATO. Obviously the U.K. doesn’t want us to have a defence force that does respect the European Convention on Human Rights.

    The sad but tragic thing is, the English think they are refitting the good ship UK to reflect her glory days of Empire, but to the sane people in the world, Britain is embracing dangerous fascist doctrines and making them mainstream and legitimate where they should instead be pilloried and sidelined. Britain is making itself very ugly, and showing every intention of making things worse.

    Companies now have to employ Brits before foreigners? Are you kidding me???

    What’s next? Brownshirts daubing racial slurs on the windows of shops owned by non-British immigrants? Burning of mosques? It’s getting beyond parody.

    Know what? I think I’m beginning to warm to the idea of border guards, and a European defence force. Especially if they’re the professional sort, like those who respect the European convention on human rights for a start.

    Can you imagine being English, driving you kids to primary school, and hearing your angelic cherub strapped in the child seat say their first vile or spiteful slur about immigrants or Muslims? It will happen, because even if you’ve raised them to be kind and thoughtful, their society is telling them that hatred is okay. This poison will turn your kids into monsters.

    Please Scotland, we must stop this contagion from spreading here.

  349. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    UK Gov might not have a plan, but I’d be surprised if the MOD / RN haven’t got one, burried away as a gaming exercise if neccessary. Yeah, Cameron at heart was a democrat. “Nats” were wanting rid of him, I was wanting him to stay as we could guess what was coming nect – but it might be worse than even that. Maggie Thatcher turns out to have been a saint after all.

    @Breeks
    I’m warming to the idea of a European defence force as well, and I think the Yanks would be quite pleased. But there already is a lot of co-operation and in fairness to the UK it does play its part on a voluntary basis. It just doesn’t want it to be compulsory – not that that matters any more.

  350. cearc says:

    Breeks,

    ‘What’s next? Brownshirts daubing racial slurs on the windows of shops owned by non-British immigrants? Burning of mosques? It’s getting beyond parody.’

    All those things have already happened (apart from the shirt colour) and ‘furriners’ murdered. Started the day after the vote.

    Still the school cadet forces should increase the amount of brown shirts around.

  351. Iain says:

    The pound has fallen 15% against the dollar since brexit, that means that trident has just got 15% more expensive.
    Since it and most of the submarine systems are American.
    Article 50 being triggered will result in further fall in the value of the pound, trident is growing less likely to happen.

  352. Ken500 says:

    With Brexit the Nukes will be going. Obsolete. It was mad McMillian that secretly wanted them here. They will be going. The Yanks did not want them here. Greenham Commom 20mins from London was disarmed in 1992. It is EU shared Defence which will save money. Hope it is never used but keeps peace in Europe.

    The Tory multimillionaires are destroying the world economy so they can tax evade. The EU are tightening up on tax evasion. That is what the Tories want to prevent. Brexit red tape etc that could be introduced for business and the higher prices etc will badly affect businesses and the economy. Enough is never enough for the non Dom, criminal, tax evader owned Press. Losing readers faster than a sieve loses water. The BBC/Press controlled by Westminster criminal cons.

    This carry on will stagger on until there is a new UK Gov or Scotland is Independent. Westminster Tories have already ruined the Scottish Oil and Gas sector with high taxes when the price had fallen. Osbourne. Losing Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. Now untaxed fracked Gas is being imported from the US, helping the US economy. Scotland would have really low unemployment without Westminster Unionist chronic interference.

    The Tories are wasting £Billions on Hinkley Power station and HS2. Both complete economic disasters which will put up prices. Nuclear waste is being flown around the world. A disaster waiting to happen. The Tories have banned coal production/CCS, banned wind turbine in England, cut investment in Renewables. Wave, wind and solar are the cheapest and cleanest and most effective.

    It is the US/UK and France that have caused the migration crisis in Europe with their illegal wars. That is ever mentioned by Westminster liars. Having caused the crisis. They don’t want to help solve it. If the refugees were spread throughout Europe. There would be a solution. 2million within 500million. A small proportion.

    May distorted the migration figures. Included foreign students who return home and not include the Brits who took EU country citizenship for tax reasons. Other countries are retaliating. They will put tarriffs and barriers on Britush goods. British goods worldwide will not have the same value as in the EU. Australia/NZ 25million will not replace a 450Million – nearer EU market. The UK Is only the fifth EU economy because of pop size. Including the debt the UK is 16th pro rata. Way down the list and the most unequal place in the world.

    Some EU migrants support Brexit. They do not seem to realise that will affect their status. They did not even get to vote in the EU Ref. The red tape which could be introduced will be bad for business and travel. Put up prices and slow down the economy. Total madness.

  353. Al Dossary says:

    @Iain 6.29am

    The USD to GBP is currently sitting at $1.27 !!!

    The widely accepted forecast for the GBP v USD was that it would drop to $1.20. Realistically, I have a feeling now that it may go as low as $1.10 or even parity given that we still are at least 3, maybe 6 months away from the Article 50 button being pressed.

    And yet can you remember the furore in the media on September 8th 2014 from the MSM when it dropped to $1.62.

    UKOK is seriously teetering on the edge of the abyss. With the daily, inflammatory headlines in the press (see Nana @ 11:17pm)it really is only a matter of time before something erupts in one of the England’s inner cities.

    The press should be haranguing the companies, big & small and the corporations who are exploiting these people not those who have come here solely to better their own life.

  354. Ken500 says:

    The £ falling. EU contributions will have gone up. The £ falling has lost £Billions in the UK economy. £Billions more lost than the EU contributions. Lowering people’s standard of living. Total, utter madness. Complete badness. Sanctioning and starving vulnerable people, (food banks) is completely wicked.

  355. Ken500 says:

    Orange Marches are banned by Councils all over Scotland. Totally banned in the NE by the council and the Police. They would be an outcry if they were allowed to happen. It is only in Glasgow CC etc, there is a problem.

    Vote SNP/SNP May 2017 for peace and prosperity. Please. Thanks.

  356. Undeadshaun says:

    The build up for Saint Ruth continues, extended interview on goodmorning itv just now.

  357. Ken500 says:

    Another one hits the dust. Diane James resigns as UKIP leader. Wonder what they had on her?

  358. Ken500 says:

    Davidson the unelected 3rd rare reject can’t count or read a balance sheet. The Tories have already ruined the Oil & Gas sector with high taxes (60% to 80%) when the price had fallen 75%. The tax is 40% since Jan 2016.

    Frack untaxed Gas is now being imported from the US. The Tories trying to destroy the Scottish Oil & Gas sector while importing non taxed Oil & Gas. Helping the US economy. The Tories have lost Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. Unelected Tory multimillionaires are destroying the world economy.

  359. manandboy says:

    Georges Monbiot – telling us the necessary stuff we’d rather not hear.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/04/democracy-people-power-governments-policy?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=

    “Our folk theory of democracy is grounded in an Enlightenment notion of rational choice. This proposes that we make political decisions by seeking information, weighing the evidence and using it to choose good policies, then attempting to elect a government that will champion those policies. In doing so, we compete with other rational voters, and seek to reach the unpersuaded through reasoned debate.

    In reality, the research summarised by Achen and Bartels suggests, most people possess almost no useful information about policies and their implications, have little desire to improve their state of knowledge, and have a deep aversion to political disagreement. We base our political decisions on who we are rather than what we think. In other words, we act politically – not as individual, rational beings but as members of social groups, expressing a social identity. We seek out the political parties that seem to correspond best to our culture, with little regard to whether their policies support our interests. We remain loyal to political parties long after they have ceased to serve us.”

  360. Andrew McLean says:

    Turned on the tv this morning to hear Ruth Davidson telling me to stop carping from the sidelines and get my shoulder to the wheel and make Brexit work?

    What exactly does that mean? No honestly what do I have to do? , well nothing, there is actually nothing I as a individual can do! But wait is she saying that, and she did that “the country voted for Brexit” well it maybe something I can do and point out that MY country did no such thing, and if she feels Mr angry from Surrey speaks for me then she is delusional. Not now not ever will I listen to racist bigotry from another country and say that man speaks for me.

    Can I also point out to anyone who agrees with Ruth, that the majority voted for a SNP government that brought in major changes in Scotland, take the named person legislation, agreed by, and its fact, all major child welfare organisations. Why then is Ruth campaigning so vigorously to scrap it, was it not the right of the Scottish government to enact that legislation, and is she not carping from the sidelines by now opposing what was the democratic view of the elected politicians.

    The sad fact is even if I put my shoulder to this fictional wheel, it means nothing, the people who ultimately decide what Brexit means is the European Parliament. They now hold all the cards, hard soft, in out, they now control the debate and all our destiny in these islands, in a way they never did whilst we were playing our part in the future of Europe.

    So Ruth tell it to the EU, tell them what to do, because from where I am sitting they sound like they are about to protect their own interests and to hell with little England and her dreams of empire. And is that not what Brexit means, England free to rule the waves of commerce, paint the map pink again with her power?

  361. manandboy says:

    According to the previews, today Ruth Davidson will take a machine gun to the SNP at the Tory Conference. She will make a
    lot of noise and will impress the Unionist faithful – but she will be firing blanks. Which is all you need, apparently.

    Democracy? In the UK? Show me it.

  362. Ken500 says:

    Amber Rudd another Tory involved on crooked deals on the London Stock market. Her father banned from business activities because of crooked dealings.

    Davidson is just a born liar. A total disgrace, along with her Tory mates.

    The Tories want to scrap the European Human rights legislation but Davidson uses the European rights position to support scrapping the ‘Named Person’ legislation. Absolutely crazy,

  363. mr thms says:

    Mean’t to add to my earlier post that the fall in the pound also means that in real terms the value of a barrel of Brent Crude today, compared to last year is… drum roll.. $60.87!

  364. Free Scotland says:

    @Andrew McLean at 7:45

    Well said. And I think the description “authors of their own downfall” will before long be applied to Davidson, Dugdale, Maggie II May, Johnson, Fox and Davies, as it has already been to Clegg, Miliband and Cameron. Oops, almost forgot to mention Weetabix Torrance. The sooner, the better.

  365. Luigi says:

    It is interesting, is it not, that a number of talentless scots seem to have discovered that there is money to be made by doing the yoons’ dirty work – talking Scotland down. It’s dirty work, but MSM exposure is guaranteed and the pay is good:

    Think Neil Oliver. Think David Torrance.

    Come on, who in their right mind would pay those talentless numpties (unless it was real dirty work that no one else was willing to do?

  366. Nana says:

    I’ve seen a number of comments on social media, disgust shown by tory members calling Davidson offensive and a hate baiter. Some saying they are not renewing membership.

    The bbc will continue to build her up.

    @Smallaxe Good morning.

  367. carjamtic says:

    Are We There Yet ?

    Media Transparency ? – Not Yet

    Persona non Grata ? – Not Yet

    Setting up to Fail ? – Not Yet

    The Resort,beyond the Last Resort ? – Yes we have arrived.

    #timeforindyref2?

  368. ScottieDog says:

    I see BBC are promoting children in need again whilst promoting the parties which are responsible for child poverty.

  369. skintybroko says:

    Utterly appalled at our Masters, I work with a lot of “foreigners” and they are by far the most motivated group in terms of getting the job done well, seeing their job as a career unlike some of their “British” counterparts who are motivated only by money, have a sense of entitlement and dont give a damn about a career – more fool them as their “foreign” colleagues are higher paid and more highly regarded.

    We need to get our independence as soon as possible before this Tory government consigns Scotland to the waste basket.

    Wee Ginger Dug has a great piece today.

  370. galamcennalath says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    Liz g says:

    “Faslane”

    My understanding is …. The big issue for everyone isn’t the naval base at Faslane, it’s the nuclear weapons store at Coulport. The submarines could probably operate from elsewhere. Creating a new nuke store is the expensive bit for rUK.

    I also understand that it would be unacceptable in international law, treaties etc, for one country to house its entire operational nuclear arsenal in another.

    IScotland may, if it chooses, do a deal on using the naval base facilities. However I can’t see any other option for the nukes than to be removed to rUK.

  371. gordoz says:

    Fair play to Kevin McKenna’s column in the National today
    Spot on.

    Now as for Davidson, Mundilly and the Tory patriotic front.
    Typical of their MSM cronies to avoid taking a future (FM :her words) to task over her insulting unprofessional jibes at her potential voters, to gain favour with her imperial masters. PoR

  372. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Legerwood says, 4 October, 2016 at 9:26 pm

    and

    K1 says, 4 October, 2016 at 11:40 pm

    and

    Ken500 says, 5 October, 2016 at 7:23 am “Wonder what they had on her?”

    Diane James has ‘quit’ as UKIP leader according to report in Daily Telegraph

    Now seeing that Faradge (no typo) may still ‘technically’ be leader.

    Now I am convinced there will be a GE next year.

    UKIP know they will do better under Nigel Faradge (no typo) than Diane James (who must be taking one for the team in stepping down).

  373. Smallaxe says:

    @ carjamtic:

    Reply for you 0/T 5th Oct 1:46am

    Peace Always

  374. Legerwood says:

    Nana says:
    5 October, 2016 at 8:00 am
    “” Can-northern-ireland-veto-brexit-some-lawyers-think-so
    http://archive.is/Sah4F “”

    I think the DUP and Tories cosying up to each other may be them trying to negate any NI court decision on Brexit.

    http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/tories-increase-majority-dup-deal/33628

  375. Ruth is going through the process of murphification at the moment. As she has nothing to say and no evident political abilities she will become a caricature in due course. When everybody starts laughing she is finished. Give her six months.

  376. Papadox says:

    We’re going to get good cop bad cop routine from Laurel and Hardie, sorry Ruth the big mooth and the smiling assassin Theresa May.
    Ruth will bad mouth the Scottish nation and Laurel will tell the conference how great ENGERLAND is. The yoons will be wetting themselves and turning up their hearing aids so they don’t mis anything. To poor, to stupid, to wee, aye some of us are. They intend keeping us that way. Rule Britannia.

  377. Andrew McLean says:

    Call Kaye allows Edwina Curry to state as fact that the NHS in Scotland is worse than any other part of the UK. What is the point of the BBC in Scotland if not to be a propaganda merchant, a disgrace to journalism, a new soviet Pravda, an enemy within.

    DONT TRUST THE BBC THEY LIE TO PROPGATE THE STATE.

  378. Smallaxe says:

    Christmas or Kristallnacht

    What do you want?

    Peace Always?

  379. One_Scot says:

    Ah, the English elite dumping on Fraser Nelson. Now there’s an image.

    Does it get any better. And I bet Nelson is still more than happy to bend over and lick their arses.

    Can it be possible for any human to value their worth even less. Lol.

  380. Breeks says:

    I get an overwhelming sense of petulance about this.

    It reads like all the covert discussions and meetings held behind closed doors have proven utterly fruitless, and the UK is stuck firm in the vice which is only going to get tighter.

    When the Tories talked about maintaining access to the free market, I honestly believe they were daft enough to think they could bargain their way into it, but Europe has been tougher than they thought, and they resent Europe now even more than they did before. A very British fudge is not going to happen.

    It always seemed forlorn, and lacking in perspective, but until just recently, there was room to believe the Tories were trying to negotiate “something”, but there is a change in the air. There is no discussion required with Europe to repeal the Europe act, or withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights. It only requires the application of sovereignty and it is done. But it is the difference between pushing a heavy load up a hill, realising it is futile, then switching tack and trying to steer the load back down the hill without losing control. Neither success, nor failure, can now see us getting to the top of the hill. Down we go. The question is controlled descent or freefall.

    Theresa May hasn’t chosen hard Brexit, but I think the penny has dropped that a soft Brexit is plain fiction. It sugared the pill, nothing more. The Tories have to make hard Brexit work, because it is only option they have.

    Thing that troubles me as a Scot who wants to stay in Europe, is that scheduling the repeal of Acts which have a foot in Europe is necessary, and largely perfunctory, and yet it has all the hallmarks of someone preparing the ground for a moonlight flit. “When we go, we’re gonna go quick”, type of thing.

    I just hope that Scotland has the same suitcases open on the bed that Westminster has, so that we can get out of UK a critical moment faster than the UK can exit Europe.

    I think Theresa May might be planning to exit Europe abruptly, and issue a petulant and defiant rebuke to Europe by sticking up two Churchillian fingers up to all the negotiations planned for the period beyond triggering Article 50. She might even be planning to exit instantaneously on triggering Article 50. What has she to lose?

    Summary exit with us on board also means Nicola Sturgeon out manoeuvred, in need of a referendum which needs “white” English sovereign consent to ever happen, and facing the tortuous entry requirements for rejoining a Europe we could not stay in despite tearing claws in the dirt as we were dragged out. As for the future of the Scottish Parliament?

    I know people don’t like it, but just in case, …., ……, you do know what I’m going to say don’t you? Let us at least have the books open on an emergency UDI with subsequent ratifation by constitutional plebiscite, to be recognised by the EU and UN.

    Let’s renew our auld alliance with Europe, and most important of all, our aulder acquaintance with Scotland’s red sovereignty; the red sovereignty manifest for all eternity in the blood inside the veins of every Scot, and cease to recognise this alien white sovereignty which comes from God and is channelled to earth through an English monarch and her supine parliament.

  381. Fred says:

    The Orcs are on the move Mr Frodo, things are looking grim for the Shire as Ruthie straddles a giant throbbing black rhinoceros, Mundell the Muddled running at her tail in a studded cod-piece & Theresa the Grim gazes north from Mordor & hisses!

  382. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 says 3:19 am …. ”The UK Government would like us to believe there is no suitable site for relocating the deterrent, because they want it kept here, and the CND would like us to believe the same thing because they want it scrapped completely, not moved. Neither is right.”

    I’m sure that Westminster would like to continue to house their nuclear weapons here Indyref2 but I don’t think it has anything to do with them trying to pull the wool over our eyes at all. It’s well recorded that the MoD has examined a number of alternative sites, over many years as the situation changes, and have concluded that they all have very serious drawbacks from population density, lack of land and even lack of cloud cover to protect from satellite surveillance.

    We only ever hear about Faslane and Coulport but the MoD has been carrying out ongoing construction in the West of Scotland for over 50 years now (to great expense) and have taken over vast swathes of Scottish lands and lochs that are critical to Royal Navy operations and would be difficult, if not nigh on impossible, to replicate elsewhere.

    ”Three underwater ranges around Western Scotland are used to measure acoustic signature of ships, submarines, torpedoes and underwater vehicles. Located at Loch Fyne, Loch Goil and the Isle of Rona these facilities are critical to ensuring submarines retain their stealth and assist in the development of underwater weapons and countermeasures. It is also likely there are other classified installations around the Clyde area that support the deterrent and listen for foreign submarine intruders.

    Besides Coulport there are three other important defence munitions sites in Scotland that support the RN. DM Glen Douglas covers almost 650 acres and has 56 underground magazines. It provides ammunition to RN vessels berthed at Glen Mallen jetty on Loch Long where there is also a naval oil depot. DM Crombie on the River Forth is one of the few depots in Britain with deep water and a jetty that allows the largest warships to load or unload munitions. DM Beith south-west of Glasgow produces, tests and stores missiles and torpedoes. Able to store 18,000 cubic metres of explosives, Beith also assembles Spearfish torpedoes and is involved in handling much of the UK forces’ precision-guided weaponry including Tomahawk land attack missiles (TLAM).”

    From the days of Polaris (1960’s) ten sites were identified as being suitable: six in Scotland (Gareloch, Loch Ryan, Fort William, Loch Alsh, Invergordon and Rosyth), three in England (Devonport, Falmouth and Weymouth) and one in Wales (Milford Haven). More recently, in light of the threat of Scottish Independence, foreign sites such as in Georgia US, Ile Longue in Brittany and Gibraltar have been considered too. The Admiralty visit to Gibraltar in Jan 2015 has not been mentioned in the Royal Navy article nor the opposition from Spain.

    At the end of the day all sites have been ruled out for one reason or another which makes Scottish Independence and a potential demand for the removal of Nuclear weapons a real threat to the State.

    This threat has intensified since 2014 due to Brexit, so expect them to put up an even greater fight to hold onto us.

    ”It is clear an independent Scotland would be a disaster for UK defence and the Royal Navy in particular. As Britain moves towards a future outside the EU, it is critical that a strong Union is maintained which would benefit us all. The UK Trident system is critical to the defence of Europe, the UK and Scotland. Those in Westminster must persist in making this case to the people of Scotland while ensuring they serve their interests with equal vigour to those in England.

    ……………

    This Royal Navy article (July 2016) is really interesting: ”Why relocating Trident away from Scotland is virtually impossible.’

    Ends by saying that ”it is hard not to conclude that if an independent Scotland will not allow nuclear weapons to remain on its soil this would probably signal the end of the British nuclear deterrent.”

    http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtually-impossible/

    Ban the Bomb article: ‘No place for Trident.’

    http://www.banthebomb.org/index.php/news/trident/1542-no-place-for-trident

    ‘The United Kingdom, Nuclear weapons and the Scottish question.’

    http://www.nonproliferation.org/wp-content/uploads/npr/91walk.pdf

  383. Fred says:

    Thanks Petra for the “Save the Royal Navy” link, the comments are interesting.

  384. yesindyref2 says:

    @Petra
    Yes, seen all the arguments before, same old. It would be expensive, it would take time, it would need 10 years of determined effort. But it could be done. As for the shipping from Milford Haven, we have shipping going up and down the Clyde. And Milford Haven is far nearer “open seas” than Faslane is, 10 times nearer, and about a quarter of the close channels before getting past Cumbrae. Which has yacht regattas, ferries, marinas, coal and ore ships, container ships. even fishing boats.

    It’s the usual sob story, designed to make people mad about the “Nationalists”, or as the article puts it “another ‘grievance’ used by nationalists”. It’s sheer propaganda, and it’s not a Royal Navy article, it’s “Established in 2007, we are an independent voice”.

    Good to see Dorice from the Grun is still posting all the same, take it easy Dorice!

  385. yesindyref2 says:

    I found what was probably the trigger for that savetheroyalnavy article, it’s this:

    http://www.basicint.org/news/2016/voting-trident-scotland-question-settled-illogical

    Note in that article “A 2012 report of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee deemed relocation “highly problematic, very expensive, and fraught with political difficulties”?—?but not impossible for an rUK government committed to maintaining Trident.”

    This has Chalmers who’s view of Scotland is that we couldn’t defend ourselves, basically without the whole RN and RAF including Tornadoes to bomb foreign parts unkown. He’s a good guy, just believes in the UK. But even he says it could be moved.

    Note also that article is out of date – the Yanks moved out of Holy Loch in the 80s for heaven’s sakes, so no need for a transatlantic airport that would have closed but for the ScotGov anyway.

  386. yesindyref2 says:

    One last about e.g. Milford Haven v Faslane. A reason for Faslane was the high hills around, aerial attack, dambuster style. 10 miles from target, steady course, ack-ack on the hills at 030, target in cross-hairs, bomb doors open, steady, steady, steady, bombs away! Get us out of here Algyski. Well it’s guided missiles now, has been for ages.

    And Bear flights – no more interception with a scamble from Lossie, the Russians have to fly over the UK to get to Milford, or considerably longer around the North of Scotland. Well good luck with that, I’ve no idea if a flight of 200 or even 2,000 would have the slightest chance of surviving with even one Bear still growling. Same for coming in over France or even La Manche. So Milford Haven is probably actually better from that point, but you won’t see the UK propaganda machine ever making that point.

  387. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, to end on a lighter note, having seen the usual comment on savetheroyalnavy about UK Gov making Faslane and Coulport a sovereign base like Cyprus.

    An idea for a cartoon. You have a nuke boat at Faslane with rockets tied on with string and a sign “Light blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance”. You have John Bull saying “We never thought about how we’d get them in and out of here”. And of course Hamish with his paw over his eyes. Around Guy Fawkes day would be good.

  388. Petra says:

    Yeah I’ve seen all of the arguments before too, IR2, and follow them closley being a member of SCND. I’ve also got family connections to Faslane and have a sister buried there so as you can imagine the area is of real interest to me.

    Putting the ‘personal’ to one side and focusing on the facts I still firmly believe that there is no other feasible location in rUK for Trident now (as do many experts) and Independence due to this alone poses a threat to the State. Forget about our many lucrative resources.

    Barrow (estuary too shallow), Devonport, Falmouth and Weymouth are definitely out of the question (population / additional area required) unless Westminster wants to flatten thousands of homes and relocate / recant millions of individuals into all of these empty houses that they have lying around. Add to that billions in compensation, IF they ever got permission to do so. Health and safety issues and the ire of thousands would put paid to that (over and above numerous other obstacles).

    That leaves Milford Haven. Firstly the Welsh Assembly have stated that they don’t want Nuclear weapons dumped in their country and have pointed out the health and safety issues. They have two facilities catering for liquefied natural gas – including the South Hook LNG terminal which is the largest such facility in Europe – AND an oil refinery (another closed down recently).

    South Hook LNG alone caters for around 25% of the UK’s natural gas requirements. The terminal is owned and operated by the South Hook LNG Terminal Company Ltd a joint venture between Qatar Petroleum LNG Services Ltd, ExxonMobil Qatargas Terminal Company Ltd and ELF Petroleum UK Limited. It has only been up and running since around 2009 so I don’t see them going anywhere, soon.

    It would be totally inconceivable to ‘mix’ LNG plants, an oil refinery plus movement of oil and gas tankers with movement of Nuclear submarines. The result of such a collision between a sub (subs colliding not unheard of) and a tanker would be absolutely horrendous, so you can clearly see why the Welsh wouldn’t put up with this. And of course Milford Haven has a population of 13,000 to consider. There’s also the possibility that Wales could become Independent (not likely but not impossible) in the future and they’d be back to square one.

    Additionally if Milford Haven is the ideal relocation for Trident (no prob?) why have the Admiralty been nosing around in Gibraltar more recently (over the last year or so)? Even contemplating Gibraltar as a site when they know this would exacerbate their ‘Gibraltar issue’ with Spain. Smacks of desperation to me.

    Anyway yesindyref2 looks as though we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, lol.

  389. Rock says:

    Lochside,

    “But you and I are still asking the same question two years later…how do we destroy the BBC?”

    Jockanese Wind Talker,

    “I’ve said previously that a ‘Don’t pay the propaganda tax’ campaign along the lines of the old Poll Tax campaign would be the ideal territory of Tommy Sheridan.”

    I have called for a poll tax type campaign before.

    But Tommy Sheridan cannot be expected to do our hard work for us. After all he did not get the support he needed from us when he needed it.

    It is Derek Bateman who should put his money where his mouth is and start an anti-BBC campaign.

    In my view, Scotland will not become independent before Pravda GB has been destroyed.

  390. yesindyref2 says:

    @Petra
    Yes we can agree to differ! No harm in Indy Ref 2 having the two different opinions out there, arguing our case. In fact it might confuse the Unionists 🙂

    The Wales Government though will have as much power (less) as our own Government to prevent any defence matter – none, absolutely none. And I’ve lived on the Clyde most of my life, used to be able to see Holy Loch out my window with a little imagination (been on the base totally fu), in range of drowning under the 100 foot tidal wave (as I am now). Shrug!

  391. YoonTankCommander says:

    American blacks have a term for Davidson’s and Torrance’s sort which can’t be printed here. Hint: it’s the Samuel L. Jackson character in the movie Django Unchained, who sells out his fellow slaves for a privileged position in the master’s house. And whom does he hate most? The uppity freed slave who threatens that position.



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