Oranges are not the only fruit
A reader directed us today to a tweet by one of the most consistently abusive Tory trolls on social media, slightly concerned about whether his gleeful assertion of a 12% drop in SNP support had any grain of truth to it.
If you’re in a hurry, the short answer is “No”.
It’s possible to make the claim, of course, because different polling companies produce different ranges of results. The only way to find out what’s really happening in a way that actually tells you anything about which way public opinion is moving is to compare apples with apples – that is, to measure the changes within polls conducted by the same pollster.
So we did that. We charted, with the help of What Scotland Thinks, each company’s findings over the past 12 months, or as near as it was possible to get.
These are the results.
YOUGOV (CONSTITUENCY)
12-month change: SNP -1, Lab -4, Con +4, Lib -1, Others +2
YOUGOV (REGION)
12-month change: SNP +3, Lab -6, Con +3, Lib -1, Grn +1, UKIP +1, Others 0
SURVATION (CONSTITUENCY)
12-month change: SNP 0, Lab -2, Con +4, Lib +1, Others -3
SURVATION (REGION)
11-month change: SNP -1, Lab -2, Con +5, Lib +1, Grn -1, UKIP -1, Others -1
TNS (CONSTITUENCY)
11-month change: SNP -4, Lab 0, Con 0, Lib +3, Others +1
TNS (REGION)
11-month change: SNP -3, Lab +2, Con +1, Lib +1, Grn -2, UKIP -1, Others +1
IPSOS MORI (CONSTITUENCY)
8-month change: SNP -2, Lab 0, Con +4, Lib -1, Others -1
IPSOS MORI (REGION)
8-month change: SNP -4, Lab -2, Con +2, Lib +1, Grn +2, UKIP +1, Others -1
PANELBASE (CONSTITUENCY)
9-month change: SNP -3, Lab -1, Con +2, Lib +1, Others +1
PANELBASE (REGION)
9-month change: SNP 0, Lab -2, Con +2, Lib +2, Grn -1, UKIP 0, Others 0
And that’s that. What the polls show, when analysed in any meaningful like-for-like context, is that the last year of campaigning has basically achieved nothing. Almost every change figure in the tables above is within the 3% standard margin of error for polling, which suggests that in essence the polls haven’t moved at all.
Some show the SNP slightly up, some slightly down and some static. The same is true for all the other parties, except that no poll has showed the Tories losing support since a year ago. If you take averages of all the polls – just for fun, because the differing dates make it scientifically pretty worthless – the numbers come out to:
SNP -1.5%
Labour -1.7%
Conservatives +2.7
Lib Dem +0.7
Green -0.2%
UKIP 0
Others -0.1%
That, readers, is a whole lot of not very much going on.
(It strikes us a bit like the old routine by, we think, top US comedian Rich Hall about how Coke and Pepsi spend billions of dollars every year on competing advertising that changes nobody’s opinion, to the point where if someone asks for a Coke in a pub and the barman says “We’ve only got Pepsi, is that okay?” the response is a bemused shrug of total indifference.)
Labour have lost the most ground and the Tories gained the most, but every average is within the margin of error. Even if the figures were to be accurate, Labour would still hang on for a close but clear second above the Ruth Davidson No Surrender To The SNP Anti-Referendum Party (as we believe the Tories will appear on the ballot paper).
So it looks as if the biggest uncertainty about next month’s election is whether the Lib Dems will fight off the Greens for fourth place. (We suspect they will – although the Greens are ahead in more polls they contest only a couple of constituencies and their support is more geographically polarised – but it’s definitely up for grabs.)
A relentless 12-month bombardment of “SNP BAD!” from the media and opposition has simply bounced right off the hull of Nicola Sturgeon’s battleship, leaving barely a scratch, and no amount of desperate spin can conceal that fact.
If the percentage of the vote goes down overall this will clearly show that Sturgeons divisive brand of politics has ruined Scotlands democracy by being popular
And she’s doing it deliberately
..yes…but…er… #SNPBad!
I think that covers it.
Perhaps the commentariat in the msm will probably up the anti after the election to Holyrood and the next SNP government. What is left if everything keeps bouncing of the hull of Sturgeon’s battleship?
Plan B. Declare the actions of Holyrood and the Scots seditious and implement direct rule?
But that means that *gasp* – Matt’s Tweet is dishonest!
Well that’s a lot of hard work collated above.
Excellent I’m heartened. 🙂
Like Joe Friday: Just the facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4LPkmGO5Cc
Deluded, offensive Yoon.
Who doesn’t appear to be the brightest button in the tin.
Thanks for the FACTUAL clarification, Rev.
He don’t do irony, does he. A collapse to 50% support of the Scottish people!
Keep up the support, sonny.
If its a battleship, then they are firing ping pong balls from their arses tbh.
Can I see this in a graph please…
They should realise that grasping at one blade of straw will not prevent you sinking.
It is all self comfort rather than substance. In reality there is no comfort to be found.
This Unionist party animal lacks insight.
Thanks for that arithmetic round up Rev, but even if you remove the numbers stating we are back to where we were in May just means another electoral wipe out for unionists and the SNP consolidates their position within Holyrood.
Clearly the yoons are glass half full types, having consumed the other half or stashed it offshore…
A week is a long time in politics,
But we have Tory off shore tax realignment, I.e not playing any.
And labour trying to out Tory the Torys on free cash for the boys.
Time for an asserted media campaign, pictures of collapsed schools and Kezia, and a fat controller with the heading “only poor people pay tax” .
By the time the electorate get to the ballot box the only question is who do you trust to do their best for Scotland.
All votes SNP.
Just another lickspittle then !
Said Hi to Rich Hall on Princes St years ago during the festival.
The slightly inebriated Embra accent must have spooked the poor wee guy, he was only minding his own business, trying not to stick out. The colour drained from his face, I think he thought his number was up !
I had a chuckle at the coke/pepsi analogy as that actually happened to me last week!
If you add the labour and tory numbers together, they only hit 40% on ONE occassion, the average seems to be approx 34/35% for their COMBINED share of the vote.
As said, these figures after basically YEARS of constant SNP BAD virtually every single day.
But hey….these tactics “won” the referendum, so surely they will work again eventually.
It is like a reflex action they cannot control.
The poor dear appears to be clutching at straws. Self delusion though, is still delusion.
The establishment parties have another bad day coming and mainly because they’ve earned every minute of it. Nothing is going to stop the 5th of May coming round and short of the SNP suddenly being abducted by aliens, nothing will stop what appears to be another SNP majority parliament. There simply is no other party fit for government. (shrugs) Whatever helps the fella sleep though. 🙂
So basically it was all for nought, nothing has changed? No. Because if Stuart and I hadn’t been here calling them out the situation would be dire.
Imagine how the polls would look if the Scottish media told the truth.
Looking at Ruth’s campaign material yesterday got me thinking about how she is targeting very specific groups, in her case that’s basically hermaphrodites.
We need to do that. With obesity and other conditions on the rise there are whole new demographics opening up before us.
Now I’m not suggesting we reduce tax on pizza and kebabs, but I’d be the first to admit our attitudes towards these groups could be improved. Think about the way you refer to fat people and people with type 2, think of the impression you make.
Same applies to baldy people and people with big noses. Remember, they didn’t choose to look like that. My advice is to ignore afflictions like that altogether rather than try to use words to describe them that don’t cause offence.
Remember, they’re all people underneath! And crucially they’re all potential voters.
SNP x 2
Thank Gawd for the short answer Rev. Good to have someone we can trust and take their word.
I don’ have any trouble sleeping.
From Wings on Twitter:
In a year of campaigning, the polls have moved about as much as an elephant being pushed by a hamster
Tory cuts at Westminster. They refused to buy a proper mouse to scare the elephant with, and the PFI hamster turned out to be useless.
Bit OT , but nobody has mentioned turnout as a factor in May , Holyrood elections average approx 50% turnout (as opposed to GE’s in Scotland where the turnout has been approx 60% for 20 years )
exception being May 2015 , where Scots turnout was 71% ,
(which was the highest turnout at a GE , since 1997 in Scotland )
I am betting turnout in May will be 55% a bit less than the all time high interest in a Holyrood election to date , which was 59% in 1999 .
All the polling evidence seems to point out that the yoons don’t like it up em.
Don’t know what to think that’s not what the papers are saying 😉
One can only imagine the political damage if it were discovered by the jingoistic, far right, neocon, proBritNat, No Surrender, print media that Ms. Sturgeon & Mr. Murrell possessed a sleek 52 inch 4K curved Smart TV, a Dyson V6 Absolute cordless handheld vacuum cleaner (in smug yellow of course) or a decadent Bose SoundDock® Series III digital music system.
I can think of other mistakes they might make but these are probably the most damaging one’s I can think of.
So it’s probably best Ms. Sturgeon resigns now in case someone spots an Argus truck pulling up to their front door.
Oh, any chance of me getting a regular column in the Daily Mail or the Daily Rekirt? I think I’ve proved my journalistic credentials, haven’t I?
It’s hilarious when the Yoons look at SNP 50% as good for the Yoons, and bad for the SNP. They have sunk that low, that they fight over the scraps and that’s the best they can do.
My personal opinion is that these poles will roughly correlate with WM GE 2015 on the day on 1st and 2nd votes. The list vote is overplayed in the Greens favour as they are not standing in half the seats.
Yeah, but, what does Kev’s graph show?
I like spaghetti.
These knuckle dragging Yoons would be dangerous if they had half a brain.
Been trying for 20 minutes to listen again to the interview about the PFI contracts issue this morning on GMS.
O/T
Never had trouble before but cannae get it to work at all today.
Some extra steps required now (or a five year old to try it and show me how)
Anyone else wanting to try. 🙁
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075p96f
I think we can all agree that it looks like a safe SNP win in May – but depending on the actual result, I fully expect Dugdale and Davidson to spend hours of my valuable oxygen time talking about how much closer than expected their respective party was to the SNP, and how much of a blow that extra percentage point or two gained is to Sturgeon et al.
I find myself – unexpectedly, after the last two years – completely disengaged from this election campaign. We already know the result, it’s just the final score to be decided. The respective opposition leaders are all, in their own sweet way, about as charismatic as athlete’s foot and they’re just offering nothing to the debate at all.
I was really hoping that more of Labour’s former Westminster cadre would stand for election to Holyrood, just on the off chance that some semi-capable politicians might spice up the proceedings, but if the Chairman of the Anas Sarwar Appreciation Society is all we’re going to get then it looks the Holyrood will remain in SNP hands for another decade.
Thanks again Rev. Don’t panic. Don’t panic.
Oh wait, I’m not.
SNP x2
Tick tock, I believe is the appropriate term.
SNP x 2.
Green’s are talking about doing as well as their 2003 result, back then I was under the impression the second vote (Regional)was a second choice therefore you voted for a different Party. Older and wiser now I am sure there must be others who thought likewise. I can’t see them doing as well as they think.
@call me dave
Your link works fine for me.
Agree with Papko re the influence on the number of seats due to voter turnout. This might work in favour of the Tories over Labour in the fight for 2nd place.
Everyones eyes are on the Euro vote in June. That might offer the chance to finally nail the UK in the coffin. With the Tories in a mess it plays into the England out brigade.
One thing we know about England is that they still think they are world leaders and they are eurosceptics.
Could it be that we are actually seeing the coming together of a core of the Scottish electorate who are more confident, adult people who actually understand the value of proper government?
That is what we have to achieve. That is what will bring about independence. Such an electorate will not be swayed or intimidated by the spin and deceit of the ‘in it together’ mob.
That, in my opinion, is what Nicola and the SNP she leads are working towards. It won’t be achieved overnight but it is the solid ground from which we have to fight while our opponents flail and sink in the mire of their own choice, baffled by their own conceit.
OT PFI article in the Guardian trying to make it ‘a big issue’ in the way they like it. A general handwaving discussion by important folk then next week it will be something else.
But in case the Guardian agenda of writing big issue/articles but where it will lead to no change they avoided any real Indy writers such as Wings and used Mike Small.
I agree that it looks as if it is on the cards that we are heading for another SNP majority government.
I do worry about 2 things:-
a) The possibility of complacency among SNP supporters who might just think that as the result appears to be a foregone conclusion there is no need to vote.
b) The idiotic divide and rule campaign being waged by Rise and that bitter and twisted egotistical political fence jumper and failure Sillars. While I sympathise with the Greens they are not helping much. Let’s wait until we get Independence before we get party plurality and in the meantime stop doing WM’s work for them.While the Greens will probably get some List Seats Rise will not and voting for them will just open the door for more Red, Blue and Yellow Tories getting in on The List.
We must get our vote out and it must be SNPx2.
A relentless 12-month bombardment of “SNP BAD!” from the media and opposition has simply bounced right off the hull of Nicola Sturgeon’s battleship, leaving barely a scratch, and no amount of desperate spin can conceal that fact.
Is it holding down SNP vote though, is hard to answer.
BBC Scotland management probably argue that in performance reviews by their London imperial masters. “Give us one more year,” still means no SNP support fall 2016. “Give us another 5 years, we can annihilate them by 2021.” That’s if polls hold for another 23 days.
You’re fired. Cant imagine another of Murdoch’s henchman tolerating much more Pacific Quay buffoonery. This one’s ex The Times toryboy heaven.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/corporate2/insidethebbc/managementstructure/biographies/harding_james
340 grand a year. Tasty.
“A relentless 12-month bombardment of “SNP BAD!” from the media and opposition has simply bounced right off the hull of Nicola Sturgeon’s battleship, leaving barely a scratch, and no amount of desperate spin can conceal that fact.”
And the reason the BritNat media onslaught has utterly failed to turn the SNP tide? SOCIAL MEDIA!!
If these polls hold up (and, of course, taking NOTHING for granted, work our socks off for every vote), then it will be an even BETTER result for the SNP than 2011.
GIRFUY BritNat media. You rule no more. We see right through your rubbish. We see when you overlook the obvious SLABBAD stories.
And we LAUGH at you. Keep trying (sniggers).
SNP x 2
It does look like the Tory gains are coming from Labour!
I suppose it is not that much of a journey now.
Just got my wee billet doux in from Ruthie exhorting me to vote for her and the Scottish conservatives for a strong opposition to hold the SNP to account. It finishes with “don’t forget you have TWO votes in this election.”
How could we forget Ruthie but if you’re not even going to try and win and are only striving for second place I think I’ll lend my two votes to the SNP. It would be a wasted vote otherwise. I’m sure you will understand. Maybe next time or when hell freezes over.
SNP x 2
Some wingers would prefer the tories to come second.
They see it in a ‘fall of france’ way — now we know where we stand.
And I have a lot of sympathy for that.
BUT
Ruth Davidson has turned out to be such an obnoxious political person
that I’m hoping its still labour as the official opposition.
Just for the personal schadenfreude of it all, you understand.
Britnats, whether politicians or so-called journalists, are rapidly moving away from the reality of politics in Scotland.
Seems surprisingly long term stability apart from perhaps a drift from Lab to Tory.
Although the colonial media are desperately trying to protect Labour from the PFI school problems, it is still likely to have some effect. Perhaps people will look at PFI seriously for the first time and realise how stupid Labour were.
Wouldn’t surprise me if any PFI damage to Labour helps the Tories.
The key thing is SNP get a majority. som SNPx2 !
Papko @ 2:40 mentioned turnout. It is likely to increase with the increased political engagement. Who will that help? We should remember turnout was highest in IndyRef in the NO areas.
Motivation to stop the dastardly separists may get Unionists out. The SNP needs to work at getting their voters out too!
Within the last couple of weeks someone posted a link or two to a comprehensive look at the close links and career swops between Labour and BBC Scotland. I think the page had lots of links to further articles. I thought I’d bookmarked it but can’t find it. If you realise it was you please repost.
Greens claim ‘Labour in our sights’ as party launches radical Holyrood manifesto
https://archive.is/Uq9th
What are they like?….. Aye right… Patrick obviously thinks there is much money down the back of the Scottish chaise longue and WM does not exist. 🙂
SNP X 2 SNP SG first and sort out the furniture later.
@Afewhomethruths
Is this what you are looking for?
https://lenathehyena.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/oh-what-a-tangled-web-we-weave-when-first-we-practice-to-deceive-bbc-scotland-and-the-labour-party/
@ mike cassidy
I am one of them Mike but not because i harbour sympathy towards the blue tories on the contrary i want them in the firing line of the Scottish people no more hiding behind their red tory detractor pals spin lies and bullshit.
This is the way its meant to be us v the tories parliament v parlaiment.
I really dont think the blue tories have figured out what awaits them if they should be so lucky as come second due to us killing slab off and that is the crux of the point they will only come second due to us having done a proper job on slab.
Either way they are all yoons and whatever the outcome no matter which colour of demented yoonery tries to stand in our path it will not work to many of us Scots wide awake with our eyes open and damn angry with intent to do something about it.
I really wish folk would stop this “wiping out the Yoons” nonsense.This is a PRish election.The unionist parties will not be wiped out.They will probably get about 45% of the vote.They will probably get dozens of seats.If the SNP get a majority of seats,it won’t be a massive majority.
You know, right now the Labour party should be sitting down in Scotland and saying, what the F is wrong. That is what sane people do. Instead, Labour persist with the same old rubbish, ill-founded accusations, silly new tax policies, and generally shouting SNP BAD as loud as possible.
It is absurd.
The Labour party will NEVER be in government again in Scotland, until such times, as they cease to be merely a branch office, actually controlled by London. The time when that was acceptable are gone, the rubicon has been crossed, pandoras box has been opened, use whatever metaphor you like. Scottish voters have moved on, and demand better.
Election of the SNP government in 2007 gave Scottish voters a Government that was actually ALL about Scotland, doing the best for Scotland, and standing up to the chicanery of London’s worst. Scots like that, and now they have experienced it, the voters will never go back again to what some in the Labour party may imagine are the ‘good old days’, where they could get away with just paying lip service to Scottish needs.
Merely putting the word ‘Scottish’ in your party name just doesn’t cut it any more, and it never will.
The fact that Labour cannot see that, is indicative of the lack of political insight and credibility right at the very top, both in Scotland and London.
SNP twice in May.
OT
back in the PFI schools thread I posted this:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-scottish-resistance/comment-page-1/#comment-2132564
@ AFewHome Truths,
Do you mean this…
https://caltonjock.com/2014/11/05/bbc-scotland-powerful-politically-corrupt-and-biased-shameful-abuse-of-the-scottish-electorate/
Remember – if a majority in Scotland support having a second IndyRef (which is quite different from a majority actually supporting Indy), then all Yoon parties will deny the people that chance to voice their opinion in a second referendum. They will deny us democracy just as they have done for decades.
But the genie is out the bottle and it won’t go back in. Scotland’s mind is made up and May is merely the resumption of unfinished business. Liars and cheaters will always lose (in the end).
Forget Greens / RISE etc. They will only split the indy vote and allow the Yoons through the middle. BOTH VOTES SNP is a MUST to prevent that from happening.
Let’s show the Triumvarite (the Red & Blue Tories, the colonial media and the Paedo Broadcasting Corporation) that we haven’t gone away and are growing in strength and are more popular than ever.
Get out and vote SNP x 2. It’s the ONLY positive option for Scotland.
I was saying to the sole Conservative voter I found on Sunday, I would leaflet for them myself if I thought it would help get them into second place. Brought a smile to his face.
In fact, he was the third voter admitting to being of a Con. mind I have bumped into in three weekends of canvassing.
Re PFI, we should be having referenda before policies like that are ever put in place.
Even if they are snuck into a manifesto (that the vast majority of people do not read) such fundamental shifts in how things are done should be cleared with an open and honest debate.
It cannot be left to those who will line their pockets as a consequence to decide it’s ‘best for the nation’ (meaning ‘best for me and my off-shore account’). Then we wouldn’t have people finding out close to 20 years later what a sham it all was.
Some people (Naws, mainly) groan whenever I mention having a referendum on other policies (even though it has nothing to do with indy and doesn’t always have to be a long campaign). Such people need a bloody good slap because they’re basically saying ‘don’t consult me on anything, just keep ripping me off’. How daft can you get?
I feel pretty sure the Swiss would have a referendum on it first.
@Rev
I see the Unionists are trying to say the SNP’s NPD is the same as Labour’s PPP/PFI, but it really doesn’t seem to be, it seems to be much better value.
Any chance of a follow-up article showing the difference?
mealer says:
12 April, 2016 at 4:42 pm
I really wish folk would stop this “wiping out the Yoons” nonsense.This is a PRish election.The unionist parties will not be wiped out.They will probably get about 45% of the vote.They will probably get dozens of seats.If the SNP get a majority of seats,it won’t be a massive majority.
Indeed. All that needs to be done is to de-fang them, so that they have no influence whatsoever in the governance of Scotland. The yoon parties have to be systematically degraded. First Holyrood in May and then the Scottish council elections in 2017. Holyrood is very important, but the council elections will be IMO vital. My big hope is that very few, if any Scottish councils are controlled or even part-controlled by yoon parties next year. Wipe-outs are neither likely or necessary in a proportional voting system.
We don’t have to wipe em out, but we do need to render them completely powerless. This will take time, but we are getting there (thanks in great part to BBC Labour). 🙂
If they’re getting this tripe from their canvassing returns it must be because most folk are saying “aye, we’ll vote for ye” just to get the embarrasing gits off the doorstep.
I avoid them by having a “end tory rule” sign on my door.
The postie gave a wee smile today when she didn’t drop Ruthies pamphlet through the letterbox.
BBC Debate on Health to-night.
Trust someone will put Labour (and Tories) over the PFI contracts which are a total drain on Health Boards.
The astonishing £6.7 billion of repayments under Labour’s “buy now pay later” policy covers 27 capital projects with an estimated value of only £1.28 billion and comes after £1 billion of repayments have already been made.
NHS Lothian is paying £1.5 billion for the £228 million Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and The contract for the new Edinburgh Royal Infirmary building lasts 25 years but the lease of on the land is for 130 years.
£35.4 million for a project at Ellen’s Glen with a value of only £2.7 million – repayments 13 times the cost.
More PFI Health Stats
The table below shows repayments broken down by Health Board.
Building/cost Interest/Maintained
Health Board Value (£m) Lifetime Cost (£m)
NHS Ayrshire 29.9 113.52
D&G 9.8 66.86
Fife 196.86 960.87
Forth Valley 311.33 1,868.07
Glasgow/Clyde 232.9 1,063.58
Highland 39.55 225.38
Lanarkshire 192.8 1,488.82
Lothian 251.87 1,715.96
@Luigi
Holyrood has to be SNP overall majority or probably kiss Indy Ref 2 goodbye. Greens / RISE can do whatever they want in Indy Scotland, good luck to them.
But for councils it doesn’t matter, so some could be SNP, some even Green or RISE, or shared control. That wouldn’t need to be SNP + SNP at all, and would give Greens and RISE a springboard for the first Independent Holyrood elections.
As long as Swinney is in charge of the fiscal stuff.
Brilliant analysis of the pollsters. Certainly gives any SNP doubters a bit of backbone
Earlier Herald scare story collapses.
https://archive.is/2wcM6
Add it to the list 🙂
@ yesindyref2
Good point. I believe Rise should cut their teeth at local level 1st. As for the Greens I don’t know if they are committed to an IScotland, they seem to me to be easy osy either way.
Stay focused and eyes on the prize.
SNP 1&2 2016
@call me dave
Thank you for that link, actually thank you for all the herald links.
Westminster can only ever interpret a vote for the SNP as a vote for indy.
Greens: environment, fracking???
RISE: to be portrayed as loony left, tax the middle, scare folk off indy.
Now, strictly no complacency! Kenny Farquarson was trying to persuade indy types of the merits of using the list vote in support of Greens and RISE, supposedly to maximise the pro-indy representation. I wonder why? Answer of course, is to split the indy vote.
We are so close! SNP twice this May.
The most interesting figures for me are those for Labour which sit at around 20% for both constituency and regional vote with all the pollsters.
Contrast this with their actual share of the vote in 2011 Holyrood election which was 32% of the constituency vote and 26% of the regional. Commenting on the result in 2011 for Labour, Peter Lynch, Senior Lecturer in Politics, University of Stirling
had this to say:
“Everyone can agree that this was a very bad election for Labour but it actually could have been much worse. Labour has become a list party of “second class” MSPs – something they unwisely accused the SNP of being in 1999 and went about trying to deny list MSPs offices, staff and parliamentary resources.
The boot is on the other foot now though. Moreover, only one of Labour?s FPTP seats can be considered safe – Eastwood – but only because the SNP is in third place there. Everywhere else, Labour?s formerly safe seats are highly vulnerable to a small swing to the Nationalists. That?s how awful the election was – Labour has no heartland left.
Labour didn?t seem to learn lessons from the 2007 Scottish election defeat and appeared to run its campaign as if it was the 2010 Westminster election combined with the Scottish election of 1999.
The result was disastrous as everything that could go wrong went wrong during the campaign in terms of organisation, policy, campaigning and leadership. The partys leadership in the parliament has been decimated, its leader has resigned and it has promised to reform and learn the lessons of electoral defeat.
Given the party failed to do this after 2007, it might be optimistic to think they will manage to do so now, despite the electoral catastrophe visited on the party.”
Looks to me as if this commentator got it spot on, Labour failed to learn after 2007 and have once again ignored the warning signs from 2011. This time will be even worse.
As bad as it could ever get? I don’t think so, I see a split and then it’s Slab no more.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S4/SB_11-29.pdf
We must be breaching the walls if the unionists are overtly encouraging greens and rise Janet.
It’s happening…
SNP x 2…we’re nearly there.
Papko – good point re turnout. The worry is it could affect complacent SNP voters. And of course Tory voters vote the most. Maybe Ruth has already counted the postal votes and knows she is coming second…
I think that as the Greens are suggesting that we need a petition of 1M signatories to have indyref 2, we can safely assume that they are not really pro-indy.
That is a very high ask for a petition.
Magnificent Stu!
You really show these edgits up for what they are.
Incompetent edigits.
And I don’t mean that they are incompetent at being edgits, in fact that’s one thing they excel at.
Thepnr: “Labour failed to learn after 2007 and have once again ignored the warning signs from 2011. This time will be even worse.”
Fairly good post, Thepnr. Out of interest, though, since you are critical of how Labour have handled things and suggested that they didn’t learn their lessons, what do you think they might have done or do now differently?
Is there anything Labour could do to stem the tide? My view is that they are stuck in the jaws of history — there’s nothing they could do to alleviate the situation they now face.
They can’t undo Iraq. They can’t undo siding against Scotland with the Tories in the referendum. They can’t undo the 7 decades of lies. They can’t undo anything it seems.
It’s a right pickle. I think we are looking at a party that has been deselected in evolutionary terms; like the dinosaurs, their extinction is inevitable.
Johnny says:
12 April, 2016 at 5:12 pm
It cannot be left to those who will line their pockets as a consequence to decide it’s ‘best for the nation’ (meaning ‘best for me and my off-shore account’). Then we wouldn’t have people finding out close to 20 years later what a sham it all was.
Ruby replies
What I can’t understand is why people weren’t aware of the PFI taxpayer rip-off at the time.
I suppose if both the Tory parties red & blue were 100% behind PFI then people didn’t have much choice.
Or possibly it was all just too complicated for most people to understand.
Then there is the possibility that due to the public sector making such a mess of building projects ie ‘The Parliament Building’ & local councils having the reputation of being corrupt when it came to building projects people might have been convinced that the private sector would do a better job.
Out of interest, though, since you are critical of how Labour have handled things and suggested that they didn’t learn their lessons, what do you think they might have done or do now differently?
Start voting YES.
Do you think if the Parliament Building has been built using PFI it would have cost us more or less?
What about the trams?
O/T. BBCNorth Britain supposedly investigating the PPP arrangements for the Edinburgh schools. Surprisingly no mention of Labour or mention of the obscene amounts of money they are going to cost the Scottish Taxpayer.
No change there then!
SNP x 2
I still follow James Kelly on Scot Goes Pop for lots of this stat geek sort of stuff. But in the past few months a few idiot trolls have destroyed the below the line comments. What was a pleasant forum for intellectual discussions of the finer points of data sets etc has become full of mindless abuse of the SNP.
James seems to be unwilling or unable to pay for a blog where he can moderate the most offensive comments but I am sure that a “Wings Type” crowd-funder might be able to help him. (If he wants it of course.)
Just seen Ms Smith of her daddy was the ex labour leader on BBC. Didn’t bother to count but Labour is now to the left of the SNP, I repeat Labour is ………
No challenging of the BBC Heid bummer on the telephone of course. We are to believe it all. I mean she’s palsy with the Alexander”s of that ilk whose own daddy was a pal of Dewar of the Donald……..
Got to stop watching Game of Thrones
@Ruby,
Did the bloody things no cost us enough?!
Can you get odds on who will be the next Labour leader in Scotland?
School closures: Glasgow primary had same fault four years ago
https://archive.is/59Z0K
PS:
Footie galore!
http://myp2p.ec/
What is the point in Matt’s post? 50% in an election is fantastic. Cameron or Corbyn would be delerious with joy if they got 50%. I note he all around the buoys to get his trend too. TNS had 63% in August but were back up at 60% just a few weeks ago. A Woolies pick and mix approach to polls.
Actually I don’t know anyone who thought the TNS 63% back last year was a realistic proposition (and even if it was it would probably only deliver about 5 more seats than the 50% figure). However, if we did get 63% I think we should brace ourselves for massive “one party state” abuse 🙂
Just seen the most blatant piece of BBC propaganda yet, not even on RS but on the main news. So shockingly trying to pitch labour as a credible alternative that they resort to this mishmash of half truths and innuendo – really hits a new low in the garbage they call impartial, unbiased reporting.
@NiallD
No change there then!
A money joke! Excellent 🙂
Ruby says:
12 April, 2016 at 6:27 pm
Johnny says:
12 April, 2016 at 5:12 pm
It cannot be left to those who will line their pockets as a consequence to decide it’s ‘best for the nation’ (meaning ‘best for me and my off-shore account’). Then we wouldn’t have people finding out close to 20 years later what a sham it all was.
Ruby replies
What I can’t understand is why people weren’t aware of the PFI taxpayer rip-off at the time.
I suppose if both the Tory parties red & blue were 100% behind PFI then people didn’t have much choice.
Or possibly it was all just too complicated for most people to understand.
———————————-
People, and political parties eg SNP were aware of it and spoke out especially when Labour started using them in industrial quantities. It is worthwhile remembering that Labour criticised them when the Tories first introduced the idea.
Part of the great attraction of PFI especially for Gordon Brown was that he could keep the debt ‘off the [nation’s] books’. The ‘Private’ in PFI is a bit of a clue. Then eventually the EU put a spoke in the wheels by saying the debt had to go on the nation’s books as debt but by then the debts had been racked up big time.
The other great attraction was that it made Labour look good – all those shiny new buildings.
The Skye Bridge was one of the very first in Scotland and there was lots of talk at the time about what a bad deal it was. Remember the tolls?
Over the years there have been lots of articles about them and television programmes pointing out what a bad deal they were. The Tories prior to the 2010 election said they would investigate and try to cap them but once elected forgot about them.
The concept is not that difficult to understand but it is all the subsidiary wheeling and dealing that pushed up the cost to the public and they were shrouded in commercial confidentiality.
call me dave says:
12 April, 2016 at 6:53 pm
School closures: Glasgow primary had same fault four years ago
https://archive.is/59Z0K
——————————————————-
Noticed this was mentioned on the BBC tonight. It has taken the MSM a few days to catch up with what was posted by someone on here several days ago.
The Labour party in Scotland have been in retreat for almost 10 years. In their flight they have abandoned all they once would have stood and fought for.
In their retreat, their desperation is obvious as they lay waste to Scottish villages and towns, burning the bridges behind them and leaving their support behind to be captured by the SNP and others.
Their Blairite legacy of PFI schools and hospitals is slowly crumbling, soon there will be nowhere left to retreat to and they will turn upon themselves.
That will be the end, they are now past the point of no return.
james kelly is one of the biggest trolls btl on his own blog.
perhaps he just enjoys the abusive nature of the arguments
i wont be funding him again
Heard today from a builder that Arran High Skool had a wall knocked down and rebuilt due to not meeting building standards I.e. No ties.
You have to think that all the Schools and Hospitals built under Labours PFI are substandard and need to be urgently checked to ensure they are safe.
Complacency is the biggest concern for the SNP.The support is there but they have to get out and vote on the day. Postal votes go out later this week and the Tories usually do well in this regard.
Do not waste your vote on the other so called pro-indy groups.Why would you give the Greens a vote to oppose SNP policies? It has to be both votes SNP.
Legerwood says:
People, and political parties eg SNP were aware of it and spoke out especially when Labour started using them in industrial quantities. It is worthwhile remembering that Labour criticised them when the Tories first introduced the idea.
Part of the great attraction of PFI especially for Gordon Brown was that he could keep the debt ‘off the [nation’s] books’. The ‘Private’ in PFI is a bit of a clue. Then eventually the EU put a spoke in the wheels by saying the debt had to go on the nation’s books as debt but by then the debts had been racked up big time.
The other great attraction was that it made Labour look good – all those shiny new buildings.
The Skye Bridge was one of the very first in Scotland and there was lots of talk at the time about what a bad deal it was. Remember the tolls?
Over the years there have been lots of articles about them and television programmes pointing out what a bad deal they were. The Tories prior to the 2010 election said they would investigate and try to cap them but once elected forgot about them.
The concept is not that difficult to understand but it is all the subsidiary wheeling and dealing that pushed up the cost to the public and they were shrouded in commercial confidentiality.
Ruby replies
If people were aware of how bad they were why did they still vote Labour?
How come Labour get away with making claims about cut backs in the NHS & education without someone suggesting that these cuts backs could well be due to PFI.
May be of interest to some.
PFI report.
http://drphilhammond.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/PFI-Report-Private-Eye-2004.pdf
Derek M @ 4.37pm = )
Like the SNP keep saying: We take nothing for granted.
And that is respectful to the electorate.
So we all keep working, each in our own best way, to speed Scotland on along our road to Independence = )
I’ve certainly been rabbiting on and on about the cost of PPI and tweeting scottish labour about the amount of money being taken out of council budgets and health budgets because of the interest repayments so much that it may well have precipitated cuts being needed. So labour gets us in all this debt and then asks us to pay a penny more per pound to clear up their debt- I have tweeted many of the labour msp’s and scottish labour but to no avail surprise surprise. JB the numbers wizard has quietly disappeared as have many of the others who are pounding empty streets and maning empty stalls. Poor Kez can only get a welcome in nurseries and cafes where they let anybody in.(Although I heard that parents complained in one nursery and said they did not want their children used in photos/clips.)
radioscotland news 7.30
leading with schools story.
no mention of pfi or labour
Glesca Keely;
You’ve met 3 tory-minded people in 3 weeks? If my post-indyref suspicions are right, that’s a landslide!
Seriously, I also fear some complacency now. There’s a fringe of yes/snp voters who may need recoaxing. A juicy attack on SNP from some chinless buffoon/ess in WM might do it.
I fear Mrs Woosie only voted the last twice to protect her new living room furniture from bbc news related vandalism, but she doen’t quite grasp the need for another vote. I’ve threatened to withdraw her conjugials, but she’s called my bluff. She insists there’s a major difference between a smirk and a pitying smile!
SNP 2 x 2 – somehow!
It’s not just about the SNP majority seats, it’s every bit about the amount of votes cast for the SNP as well
It gives the SNP something concrete to count, and that voter power travels to the big England where our Masters are waiting and hoping for any downturn, any little blip, a sign that they and their propaganda machine the State Broadcaster are having an effect on nullifying us, the enemy of their state
With every day that passes Patrick Harvie is sounding more and more like a used car salesman making promises he knows he couldn’t and wouldn’t ever have the power to make happen
1. Switch to renewable energy: Just like that, Tommy Cooper Politics
2. Decommissioning jobs: 200,000 Aye folk are lining up at the dole office with those skills, plus Tendering might be a rule
3. 60% Tax: Patricks reasoning against possible flight, “I just don’t believe it will happen” So a Victor Meldrew policy there
4. Minimum wage £9.00 I’m going to stop now it’s becoming too obvious that Patrick is a Liberal Democrat because these are the same tactics they employ, Just talk Shite and worry about how you’re going to break it to everyone later you lied
I’m not even going to mention the Independence policy I did that previously, Och I will, Patricks policy: we’ll have a vote on whether we have a vote but if it’s a lot we might wait or we might not but that will be put to a vote in Parliament Jeeez Louise!!
@Sinky
I’ve nicked those HB stats and tweeted them. I hope you don’t mind 🙂
call me dave says:
12 April, 2016 at 6:53 pm
School closures: Glasgow primary had same fault four years ago
https://archive.is/59Z0K
Ruby replies
What a rubbish article. It reads like a press release on behalf of Glasgow City Council & Miller Construction.
Here are some of the headlines regarding this primary school
Supermarket giants Safeway want to flatten Lourdes Primary in Cardonald to build the new store on the school site.
Serious faults close nearly-new school
Safeway 25m ‘bribery’ claim
Miller in 7m pounds schools deal
Football and skipping ‘banned’ at (pounds) 6m school; Angry parents may launch petition over ‘ridiculous’ restrictions at new playground
CAN WE HAVE OUR BALL BACK PLEASE? ; Kids ‘banned’ from playing at school
Anger over safety at city’s new (pounds) 6m school
The kids will have a lot of roads to cross to get to the new school
‘Storm-hit families left in the dark as engineers go back home for the night’ 05 Jan 2012
At Lourdes Primary, most of the roof was ripped off, affecting five classrooms, the gym and allweather pitch. Six schools were damaged in Edinburgh.
“”Ruby replies
If people were aware of how bad they were why did they still vote Labour?
How come Labour get away with making claims about cut backs in the NHS & education without someone suggesting that these cuts backs could well be due to PFI.””
————————————–
At its most basic the reason is: Because their faither voted labour!
Plenty of people have pointed it out. Plenty of people have not listened – or read the articles about them – too many big words maybe?
On an earlier thread I posted a link to an article in the Scotsman from 2010 about ERI that laid bare the whole PFI costs of that hospital.
The SNP have been consistent critics of the whole PFI thing and put a stop to them when they came into government.
Clean-up as storms leave trail of havoc
Evening Times 29 Jan 2002
Also closed was Mearns Primary in Newton Mearns – where the newly- opened school had its roof torn off.
The building – which was to have been opened officially by First Minister Jack McConnell on Monday – will stay closed until at least tomorrow.
Yoon mantra – Blame the victim
Politicians Lying
PFI – Schools & NHS funding
Excessive Austerity
Bankers
Independance is about the policies of efficiencies and fairness – Not the blaming of the victims,(that’s you and me by the way).
Indy has come a long way,but like any worthwhile job,the first 90% is the easiest,the last 10% is the hardest,I feel at a tipping point,though not reflected in these polls,as these recent events,unfold on MSM/BBC and even in spite of their best efforts,the truth cannot be denied.
SNP x 2 EU in
Indyref2
Legerwood says:
12 April, 2016 at 7:58 pm
At its most basic the reason is: Because their faither voted labour!
Plenty of people have pointed it out. Plenty of people have not listened – or read the articles about them – too many big words maybe?
On an earlier thread I posted a link to an article in the Scotsman from 2010 about ERI that laid bare the whole PFI costs of that hospital.
The SNP have been consistent critics of the whole PFI thing and put a stop to them when they came into government.
Ruby replies
Perhaps it takes all the schools & hospitals to be closed down before people listen.
These school closures seem to have waken people up to the PFI Rip Off.
Every cloud…………..
RS Jackie the burd we will have an in depth about PFI I waited for Jackie Baillie to be on the program to tell us what was wrong seeing she was there when Lab gave the go ahead.
I see that a school in Glasgow in 2012 had the same problem so we know what is coming SNP should have had all schools inspected after that SNP Bad coming up.
Christ !, would you believe it, George Galloway is standing for mayor of London, believe it, oh yes, when it comes to Galloway, he’ll try anything, he is the ultimate political carpetbagger.
O/T from main topic, but just a wee thought, (I have not had time to read all postings), are the P.F.I, hospitals been cleared from structural defects?.
@Sinky
Thanks for those figures. So for comparison, using that figure I got from the FT about the Aberdeen bypass:
Labour / LibDem – PFI/PPP
Edinburgh Royal Infirmary: value = £228 million, repayment = £1.5 billion, period = 25 years. Repayment factor = 6.58. Illustrative flat rate of interest = eh? That can’t be right, try again. Flat rate = 22.3%, APR = 45%.
SNP – NPD
Aberdeen bypass: value = £745mm repayment = £1.45bn , period = 30 years. Repayment factor = 1.95. Illustrative flat rate of interest = 3.15%, APR = 6.4%.
Maintenance included muddies up the waters, and the aprs are not properly calculated, but it’s a good guide.
Vote Labour or LibDem, and everything costs 4 times as much as it should do. Or to put it another way, Scotland only gets a quarter of what it would with the SNP.
macakamura
Your link to ‘the Eye’. Eye opening indeed. Thanks. More people need to see it.
PFI scam history laid bare. New Labour up to their necks in sleaze, and the Tories knowing fine well it would lead to the end of the NHS. Bastards, one and all. Esp Master Bates & Robinson, Bliars paymaster.
http://drphilhammond.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/PFI-Report-Private-Eye-2004.pdf
@defo
Agree with you re macakamura link, long read but you don’t even need to read it all before the picture becomes clear. PFI was embraced by Labour, especially Labour millionaires.
The bastards ARE all in it together. The trough that is!
A light diversion: Armoured cars are involved. 🙂
https://archive.is/vKaLA
No time to read comments yet, but I wonder what the results would be if the ‘news’ papers and ebc were in any way impartial and told the truth about the SNP, instead of SNP bad, while ratcheting up totally unfound positive media miles, for the yoon parties.
This might interest some here. No4, especially relevant to Scotland. Hope it’s ok to share it is online.
http://drdavidlewis.com/neuromarketing/
Anyone found the money trail from the PFI vehicles to Labour yet? Could take any number of forms, from party donations to cash or deposits into personal bank accounts. The old fave is putting stuff in the wife’s name, of course.
Anyone sneakily reading this getting a bit nervous and concerned?
They were complacent and careless back then, had the whole country in the palms of their hands, I wouldn’t be surprised if something was staring us all right in the face.
Artyhetty, interesting link.
I notice;
“Today my company, Mindlab International® undertakes studies of the responses to political campaigns in many countries. In 2014 we were involved in analysing the subconscious responses of Scottish voters ”
I’ll look into whether the results of that are available to the public or not, and who funded it… Vaguely remember something on TV about it at the time.
Call me Dave… From BTL on your link.
By Anyfool. Apt.
“Ukip will probably ensure the Tories come second, not because of an increased Tory votes, but from a much reduced Labour vote.
Apparently, the new Muslim core vote Labour imported into the UK from the third world, are not too keen on living in Scotland and have rebuffed, the foolhardy SNP invitation to overtake Sweden in the race, to become the first Caliphate district of the UK.”
Thepnr.
Maybe they could share in Jail time too. Wishful thinking..
Artyhetty says:
“I wonder what the results would be if the ‘news’ papers and ebc were in any way impartial and told the truth”
Could it be that the relentless negativity and one sided bias is being counter productive?
The best forms of propaganda must be ones where the subjects are unaware that they are being manipulated by false or biased information. They think it’s real, genuine, helpful, informative, honest, and truthful.
The number of Scots who now feel that the media are impartial must be very low, and that includes most/many Unionists who must see the bias too even if it supports their viewpoint.
It wouldn’t surprise me if SNP support would be lower with impartial media. I may be completely wrong, but it that were the case, it wouldn’t be unexpected for me.
O/T but interesting
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hilarywardle/maps-that-will-change-the-way-you-look-at-scotland
I posted this yesterday exposing the role of Charles McLeod (civil servant) in the award of major PFI projects to a consortium led by himself.
I continued investigating and the plot unravelled further revealing the involvement of the new Labour Party. In effect you could say that Scotland sold it’s public utilities to itself. The links between Amey and new Labour are a powerful persuasion. Happy reading those that seek the truth
https://caltonjock.com/2016/04/11/political-dogma-scottish-private-finance-project-awards-2000-2003-here-are-the-facts-of-the-debacle-damm-the-labour-party/
Call me Dave.
A light diversion in return. It could only be Frankie Boyle..
” Imagine being a senior Tory politician on an all-expenses-paid trip in a five-star hotel. You ring down for an extra pillow, then curse yourself for forgetting that in such exclusive establishments “extra pillow” is a codeword for prostitute. Now you are going to have two prostitutes, and only one pillow to smother them with.”
https://archive.is/nyMoU
Ruby @ 8.08
Indeed.
Independence supporting SNP voters must give both the constituency and list votes to the SNP.
Don’t be duped by the Greens and RISE into giving the list vote to them.
Beware of their activists now pretending to be SNP trying to dupe SNP voters.
If they hold the balance of power, we can forget about independence for two generations, let alone one.
The National will show its true colours by promoting the Grrens and RISE even more, in the name of “democracy”.
NeoconNat says:
12 April, 2016 at 9:12 pm
Anyone found the money trail from the PFI vehicles to Labour yet? Could take any number of forms, from party donations to cash or deposits into personal bank accounts. The old fave is putting stuff in the wife’s name, of course.
Read my latest post. The link is there.
We meet this during Edinburgh’s great Festival of the arts, if only it was all-year-round. It makes your day a lot better if you encounter it on your way to whatever, the shops, the dentist, work or the job centre:
http://wp.me/p4fd9j-6lz
@boris
I’m so pleased to have guys like you on the side of me. Ta.
Rock correct. If you want independence vote Snp twice. If you want to help your enemies vote Rise and Green and kick independence into the long grass. I wish Sillars would disappear up his own orifice. He is the darling of the Scotsman and Herald…Wonder why? Fool!
mike cassidy,
“Ruth Davidson has turned out to be such an obnoxious political person that I’m hoping its still labour as the official opposition.”
I hate Labour in Scotland as much as the Tories but Davidson is the most disgusting and dishonest politician in Scotland.
If she makes gains, we will hear no end of her on the BBC, STV and the unionist media for the next five years.
@Grouse Beater
I met and interviewed John Williams in Glasgow in 1970. Now that is a guitar maestro.
Ticket cost 5/-
@Rock
The most disgusting politician in Scotland is George Osborne, Ruth Davidson is not a patch on that disgusting creature.
While we are still part of the UK that is.
Roughian: “Ticket cost 5/-
A veritable bargain!
I notice the collapsed gable end of Oxgangs PFI school has not a single metal tie in it. Who was the construction manager? And how did he miss that oversight? That must have saved all of £150 at trade values, and perhaps one day of a bricky’s time.
Did Miller build the school?
The father of the company was held a lot of sway when he was Lord Provost of Edinburgh.
Miller acquired city land banks with curious ease, and his company had a ‘dodge’ of putting in a plan they knew would attract objections, modify it apparently to mollify local resident complaints, and everybody’s guard dropped, alter the building into a bigger block of flats on an amended warrant to Building Control.
There’s a Miller retirement brick built flat in Labour’s Morningside heartland that has suffered a defective gable end ever since it was built. It cracks each year and leaks.
Thepnr,
“@Rock
The most disgusting politician in Scotland is George Osborne, Ruth Davidson is not a patch on that disgusting creature.
While we are still part of the UK that is.”
I share your hatred of him, but he does not stand for election in Scotland.
O/T
Comedy gold right now on Scotland Tonight with Bernard Ponsonby interviewing David Coburn. Ponsonby has barely been able to keep a straight face whilst telling DC that he is just making up figures.
@ Betty Boop – Bernard P did not hold back – straight for the jugular. Piggy Wiggy blamed his researchers, his memory, and everyone else… loving it. Exposed and a little willy.
@ bobajock
There was a young man from Devizes
Whose ping-pong balls were two different sizes
With one he could fart
With such delicate art
While the other – well it just went sideways.
@Grouse Beater
A lot of trades are now done by sub contractors!
You very rarely see a building site stopped by bad weather as the trades are on a fixed price to complete the job. Used to be called 714 men ( self employed).
Will be interesting to see who put up the facing bricks and who signed off the work.
Miller became Lord Mayor of London 1964.
@ Betty Boop PMSL am tryin tae work oot the hieght of ah length of string, mibbes mr Coburn could help me wie the costings ,please note the hairy String is not involved.
Jackie Baillie being burst like a weather
balloon at 160,000 feet !
Guy in audience worked out one of her soundbites means that £6.5 BILLION (half) of the NHS budget is used up by just 100,000 Scots !!!
Ludicrous !!
@boris
A good place to start your enquiry may be the guy that was all for investigating the Forth Road Bridge and was never out of the Media slagging off the SG and SNP.
John Carson who led the Engineering team on the PFI Skye Bridge as chief engineer.
http://www.monbiot.com/2004/12/29/a-scandal-of-secrecy-and-collusion/
Strange we do not hear anything from him now on the PFI schools debacle.
Who did he work for – Miller Civil Engineering!
The chickens are coming home to roost.
For anyone who missed the Coburn interview. Do not drink or eat when watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpr1NBj0gck&feature=youtu.be
Wasn’t paying much attention, busy, but I did notice Baillie promising to double spending on something, which according to my Jackie Baillie calculator which she inherioted from Danny Alexander, on her normal setting of 50% on 2%, means so far in total that Labour have promised to spend an extra £0.5 trillion if they’re elected.
Which is remarkably similar to what Blair and Brown did.
It’s a kind of magic, magic, magic …
Differences between Scotland and England, tongue in cheek 🙂
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hilarywardle/things-that-scotland-will-honestly-never-understand-about-en#.xfe8gVB5e
I’ve pulled this piece out of the link provided further up the thread from the Private Eye clippings regarding the massive scam of PFI. (my bold)
Think it’s salient in terms of understanding ‘how’ they, the Labour government pulled it off. Fixing it so the ‘contracts’ are wiped off the balance sheet. But also provides some insight into how the PFI’s with the helpful treasury fixing it so they didn’t have to pay ‘any’ tax too. By not having the contracts on ‘their’ balance sheets either.
Also this is a very in depth analysis from Private Eye from 2004. Have we any idea whether (of which this is a tiny clipping), the same set up outlined below is still in effect?
It’s just unbelievable how deep this goes…they have literally asset stripped everything and charged everyone over and over and over again for decades to come for doing it.
How is this not criminal? They have ‘pawned’ the people, we are in slavery…
‘June 1999 the treasury issued its guidance on how to account for PFI transactions. These guidelines went to the heart of the original rationale for PFI: the transfer of risk to the private sector. lt was agreed that if the risk was genuinely transterred to private consortia, nothing need appear on the government balance sheet.
Naturally, the government wanted as many as possible of the new PFI contracts taken off balance sheet, and this was achieved. 0n 7 November 2002, in answer to a question from Matthew Taylor, then Liberal Democrat spokesman on treasury matters, Paul Boateng, chiel secretary to the treasury, gave a list of PFI contracts operational at the end of the 2001-02 financial year and the accounting treatment that had been adopted for them. Of the ten hospital contracts mentioned, nine were off balance sheet. These included the new Norfolk and Norwich hospital (capital value 158m) and the Oueen Elizabeth Hospital in Woolwich(118m).
So all these proiects were not accounted for in the government accounts. But here’s a strange fact. They are not accounted for in the accounts of the consortia either. There is no reference on the balance sheet of Octagon, the consortium that built the Norfolk and Norwich hospital, of any such hospital. lndeed, the EYE understands that none of the big PFI hospitals taken off the government balance sheet appear on any balance sheets of the consortia that built them. They have simply vanished into a black hole, why?
One answer may be a new tax dodge called “corporate trader status”, sanctioned by the treasury in late 2003 and keenly promoted by the big accountancy firms. If a company can show corporate trader status, it can get tax relief on the entire cost of a PFI project, as opposed to the 30 or 40 percent it would otherwise get relief on.
ln the case of the Norfolk and Norwich hospital, corporate trader status would save the company (and cost the taxpayer) 30m to 40m. The auditor of Octagon is KPMG, which advertises its wares on its voluminous website and is not apparently too nervous about the allegations of conflict of interest between auditors and tax advisers that so damaged Arthur Andersen over Enron.
Among KPMG’s other skills, it boasts, is an ability to help PFI companies which own property and evaluate “whether the property could be accounted for as fixed assets or financial assets on the company’s balance sheets and the effect this will have on the tax position and the timing of tax liabilities.
To achieve corporate trader status, companies cannot keep the assets built by PFI on their books.
And under accountancy rules they can only keep them off if they don’t carry the risk of the PFI deal. So the companies like Octagon that keep the assets off their balance sheet are saying that the risks of PFI stay with the taxpayer, thus
defeating the primary objective of PFI and effectively calling the government accountants incorrect into the bargain.’
Nana: “The Coburn interview”
Unbearable to watch. The man’s a cretin. Then again, by association so are those who voted for him. Sorry.
@ GrouseBeater 10.20 An ah,ll raise you Manitas De Plata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL78hjk7CM0
Enjoy.
When the new schools were built or the new hospitals who got the land the old schools and hospitals were built on?
Stirling Council built at least 4 PFI schools and houses were built on the land where the old schools had stood. Was it by any chance any of the groups or companies making up the PFI site? Did the Councils, who presumably owned the land the old schools were on, sell the land at a commercial rate?
Similarly with hospitals.
If you look up “buffoon” in the dictionary it says ” see David Coburn” . Bluster, bluster ,bluster. Bernard destroyed him in the space of 2 questions.
Best comment on Health debate was to Jackie Baillie..” When you get back into parliament on the list vote…..”
Tea shot out ma nose!.
Coburn interview…..
Comprehensively shot down like a gas filled blimp and crashed in a ball of flames.
Indeed, I’m sure Ponsonby poured more aviation fuel on the burning wreckage just for fun….
@Grouse Beater
Don’t be sorry, you are quite right. The man is an idiot and idiots voted for him.
Loved the video you posted earlier, an absolute joy to watch.
Boris, great link you provided, working my way through it.
Check this though; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/scotland_99/news/321519.stm
@Nana
At least I can go to bed now with a smile on my face having watched that Coburn interview.
To be honest I don’t think many would stand up to a grilling like that. There are a few that would…
Night night & Sweet dreams Thepnr, hope you don’t end up having nightmares.
This link from earlier…
https://caltonjock.com/2016/04/11/political-dogma-scottish-private-finance-project-awards-2000-2003-here-are-the-facts-of-the-debacle-damm-the-labour-party/
..explains a lot.
Pathetic politicians pretending to invest in education.
Legerwood@11.49
Who knows, but yes, who did get the land, and older buildings. Edinburgh where the old hospital was, now been developed with luxury flats overlooking the meadows, except, the old victorian buildings, still empty and beginning to fall down, last time I passed a few months back.
The deal should have been to do up the old buildings before being allowed to even start building the totally awful, grey, prison like ones which are far far too high, poss partly why Edinburgh is at risk of losing heritage status.
G A Ponsonby writes about labour and PFI
http://indyref2.scot/scottish-labour-is-being-shielded-from-the-pfi-fallout
David Coburn will need to go to the Oxfam shop for a new suit after leaving STV studios tonight, his stripey one’s all in tatters fae Bernards Jaggy nails, Oooh the anguish!!
Excellent summation from GA Ponsonby. Needs spread widely. Thanks Nana.
http://indyref2.scot/scottish-labour-is-being-shielded-from-the-pfi-fallout
Okay I’ve read through the page Boris linked to. It’s good but not what I’m sure we’d find if we looked for it.
Here’s the gist of the thing:
1) why would supposedly principled left wing Labour politicians, such as those who ran Scotland in the 1990s, agree to build schools and hospitals which would ultimately result in them costing around 7 times more than they normally would?
2) on top of the increased costs above, why would these seemingly principled politicians of the left consent and indeed orchestrate policy involving literally billions that would effectively privatise huge areas of the public sector?
3) why not simply borrow the money and pay back using the long tried and tested mechanisms that existed to allow councils etc. to borrow?
The big stinker in all this is that councils and local government can borrow money almost for free at the lowest rates of interest available. In short, you don’t get borrowers with better borrowing credentials than government — those are risk free loans for any lender.
And so, my assumption is that there must be more to it than all that. It stinks to the high heavens. And if it could be established, hypothetically speaking, that anything like corrupt practices or straight forward bribery could be discovered, it would sink these scumbag bastards forever given that those very schools and hospitals are basically falling down as we speak.
Ah, found an interest rate for the NPD (Non-Profit Distribution, the SNP’s replacement for PFI), from the Grun and Sevvy baby of all places in an article obviously saying the ScotGov were shite, so the interest rate must be true:
“Barry White, chief executive of the SFT, said the interest rates on debts incurred by the projects were very competitive, at 3.5% to 4%, and capped for the lifetime of the contract.”
Unionist press can be very handy for the lazy, as long as you replace the word “shite”, “bad” and “naughty” by “most excellent”, and replace references to “Baillie” by “faulty calculator”.
Archived 8 months ago, that article is interesting about ONS and eurostats difficulties for the ScotGov with NPD. Ironically the EU seems ultimately to be forcing Scotland to have more debt, but more actual capital to spend, as annual payments will come from revenue funding not capital funding. At that rate of interest I kind of personally think that’s a good thing from the pov of anti-austerity, but hey, I’m an anti-Osborne nutcase.
http://archive.is/276ev
@ BBC Labour in Scotland
I’m sorry to see your suffering from tunnel vision, on top of the tennis-elbow you developed from all that turd polishing. Hope this helps take away some of the pressure you are under.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/treasury-committee/news/pfi-report/
But, where any of these ‘recommendations’ by the Treasury select committee in 2011, applied?
I know our government is no longer using PFI to fund infrastructure projects in Scotland. But is PFI still the number one ‘option’ in rUK? If it is, are they (PFI consortiums) still using the tax dodging ‘corporate trader status’ set up to avoid paying any tax on any or all of the PFI projects?
Can anyone imagine the amount of tax that has been ‘evaded’ since PFI’s became the Labour government’s financing of choice, for publicly owned infrastructure projects in the entire UK? That’s a lot of diverted cash that escaped the exchequer’s coffers.
New Labour really were the Red Tories. No wonder Thatcher cited Blair as one of her ‘big’ successes.
@CameronB Brodie
From that report: “The average cost of capital for a low risk PFI project is over 8%, double that of government gilts.”
But from the SNP’s NPD: “interest rates on debts incurred by the projects were very competitive, at 3.5% to 4%”
Depends on what is meant by “average cost” for the 8% of PFI, compared to “interest rates” of the NPD of 3.5% to 4%.
There can be a lot of smoke and mirrors over interest rates.
yesindyref2
I’m not too hot on the finance side of things but this kind of jumped out at me. Is this the same OBR that keeps telling Scotland its skint?
Bear in mind, the Greens are not really a political party, more a protest group, the difference being instead of protesting outside parliament,they are inside.
Don’t let them split your vote.
Ok, they come up with one or two good points & Nicola & co. are prepared to debate anything that is good for Scotland but occasionally they get a little bit above themselves & become quite dogmatic.
Let’s get ourselves embedded in after 5th May & then come out with all guns blazing. Forget being so nice, don’t mince words. How about starting with MSM/BBC. OK, it may not be printed but if it comes out on the parliament floor, it can’t be ignored.
So the Conservatives are taxing health and everyone’s patients, Labour are using tax instead of wall ties to raze their cavitated spending to the ground, everyone finds the LibDems taxing but they weekly deny it (help me Rona), Greens are taxing the upwardly mobile at 60% so they become upwardly mobile going south causing airport emissions to rise and fall, and U.. errr, UK … oh nevermind everyone atax them anyway.
Genuinely disappointed at the Greens, 60% is back to the brain drain days of the 70s.
‘Leading think-tank IPPR’, Another organisation with connections to the Labour party, quoted as independent by the BBC. They just can’t help themselves, but if a simple soul like me can type a few names into Google, won’t everyone else?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36028060
Sorry, meant to include links to IPPR staff!
Nick Pearce, among many other jobs for Labour, head of the policy unit at No.10 from 2007-10
http://powerbase.info/index.php/Nick_Pearce
Russell Gunson, Used to work for Claire Baker MSP (Labour)
http://www.ippr.org/news-and-media/press-releases/leading-think-tank-ippr-appoints-first-scotland-director
Radio North Britain 7.00 am ‘News’ resorts to saucy Whittingdale-related double entendres:
‘…he broke it off as soon as he discovered her job..’
If you believe Rise or Green would actually support SNP plans for indyref2 you need to check the zip on the back of your head.
Kiss goodbye to independence by voting for anything else than SNP x2.
Yip, if we don’t get that majority, we will pretty much be French Connection United Kingdomed more than we can possibly imagine.
Theres a lot of layers to this Whittingdale story.A bit of a moral maize,perhaps,in that it’s very hard to establish the facts.
O/T links
I posted this late last night, let us share…
http://indyref2.scot/scottish-labour-is-being-shielded-from-the-pfi-fallout
Students hiss “Scottish Tory”
http://archive.is/j5hVD
http://www.scottishconstructionnow.com/11837/jobs-boost-for-ayrshire-as-cgc-wins-four-council-contracts/
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-will-move-away-existing-uk-tax-structure-over-time
O/T links
A reminder of why the Whittingdale scandal is important, it is not about his pastimes, it is about dominating [ahem] the news.
https://www.byline.com/project/48/article/966
Peston writes about Whittingdale on facebook.
http://archive.is/uh7PE
http://www.newtekjournalismukworld.com/your-voice/open-letter-to-sir-alan-duncan
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/04/12/the-eu-is-not-demanding-country-by-country-reporting-today-so-dont-believe-it-when-it-says-it-is/
O/T links
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3829/controversial-tory-ip-bill-could-lose-powers-under-new-amendments-tabled-by-snp
and the lights will go out in Cameron’s back yard
http://archive.is/bZvMh
Poor hard done by mps
https://www.rt.com/uk/339355-mps-expenses-credit-cards
https://cultureandpolitics.org/2016/04/11/move-along-nothing-else-to-say-a-summary-of-camerons-role-in-the-panama-papers-scandal/
In the past interest rates have been higher. Thatcher – interest rates at 15% Brown interest rates at 5%. Interest rates were used to control debt. They were increased higher to stop borrowing. It could cause negative equity and people losing their homes as mortgage payments increased.
Interest rates have only been lower since 2008.
I didn’t see the beginning of the Coburn interview and Nanas link isn’t working at the moment.From what I saw,he has no head for facts and figures and tries to steer the interview towards generalities and thus keep it within his capabilities,which are very limited.He isn’t the calibre of person we need in our parliament but is of similair calibre to many Labour MSPs.If UKIP want to be taken seriously they will have to come up with more able people than Mr Coburn.
Whittingdale — Culture ,Media Sport Minister. I wonder under which remit he was carrying out his duties with this “whippy ” lady?
Was it on his expenses I wonder?
The real story of course is that the press knew of it several months ago,but surpressed it deliberately to “protect” his private life. Nothing at all to do with his role as Media Minister.
If you believe that,you will believe anything. It is backscratching, (pardon the phrase)
Of the highest order. Shabby collusion from a shabby Establishment.
I am sure any SNP MP’s who feel the need to be chastised by others in a “professional way” can now do so ,completely safe in the knowledge that the Media will respect their privacy.
Get cracking .
@mealer
Try here for the Coburn fluster bluster
https://twitter.com/STVNews/status/720005372224913408
Ooh Bob that’s a stinging comment. Ah the poor tory boys are all missing the old whiplash.
https://twitter.com/PinstripeDave/status/720003432606801920?lang=en-gb
I warned about RISE when they were created. They’ve since hidden some details I found disturbing using Whois service on their website.
Personally be delighted to crowd fund some billboards about labour, Tories and PFI.
Bill, you have my full attention. Throw us a few scraps, that sounds interesting.
We shouldn’t accuse RISE of dividing the Indy vote. It’s the flat earther’s vote they are dividing.
I watched Fox and Tommy on TV last night. Hard to imagine as some would suggest that they’d be better under one banner. That said, I doubt if it could possibly make things any worse for them.
Whoda thunkit
It’s apparently unacceptable for International sleekit economic organisations to weigh in on one side or other of a UK referendum
You live and learn. Thank God for Fleet Street. BBC doing an examination of the dodgy governance and ownership if the IMF – clearly a need to examine thier motivations in coming out against Brexit – – properly weighing and examining each contribution to the referendum debate – such diligence! We are blessed with such a wonderful State media too!
Great links Nana
@Bill – similar experience here re rise.
I don’t get the mindset that prefers to tap on westminnster’s door with a “rise” stick when the rest of the team are running at it with a SNP battering ram. SNP x 2 – only way.
Closing the barn door after the horse has bolted the offices of Mossack Forsica have been raided by the Panamanian police.
A year after the leaked documents were offered to a German newspaper.
As a Cornish friend of mine likes to say “ooh they quick”.
I look forward to reading Stu’s observations on the following:-
a) Sarah Smith’s party political for Scottish Labour disguised as a ‘report’on last night’s 6pm National News.
In an amazing coincidence she reported from, of all places Coatbridge, her late father’s erstwhile political stomping ground.
I am sure that there must be millions in England who are unaware of her parentage – Father Labour Leader, Mother -Labour Peer.
b) Brian wilson’s article in today’s Record where in his usual poisonous manner he tries to equate the SNP’s Not For Profit Financing Scheme with PPi/PFI.
A spokesman for Edinburgh Council, when asked that the Council must have signed off these buildings, replied that they do not have the details as it was a long time ago.
Absolute crap, documents must have been signed and archived.
They would have been signed by the person who’s responsibility for doing so. So where are these documents? or has the Council’s shredders been at work again, just as they were in the Statutory Notice debacle.
Where their actions have caused misery to many by overcharging, and cost the Council (and thus, the people of Edinburgh) Millions of pounds.
Corruption rife across Unionist Councils, mostly Labour.
They need to be thrown out, and their deals gone through to result in charges.
“See all these Greens they are good for you” say the pundits!
That Harvie quote from the Herald appears in the Hootsman now.
“It does sound to me as though a period of minority government might be good for you,” Mr Harvie said, initially to laughter, then a widespread ovation from the youngsters present.
https://archive.is/6idtZ
Leave the vegetables on the side of the plate for a month folks we can integrate them into our diet once we set an SNP menu plan.
I’m a 5 a day person who has lost nearly 2 stone since Christmas but it’s SNP X 2 all the way for an overall majority.
Or independence is gone!
The IPPR think tank mentioned by Irma at 5.32am was Tony Blairs favourite think tank.
Gets criticised here
http://archive.is/VZ5aG
Legerwood says:
12 April, 2016 at 11:49 pm
When the new schools were built or the new hospitals who got the land the old schools and hospitals were built on?
Ruby replies
Safeway wanted Lourdes Primary School land and got it.
‘Safeway 25m ‘bribery’ claim
Daily Mail 19 May 2001
SUPERMARKET giant Safeway was accused last night of bribing a community to build a new store on the site of a primary school.
The company, which already has a store in the area, has offered to build a new school, nursery, doctors’ surgery, careers office, optician, dental surgery and two football pitches if it can demolish Lourdes Primary School in Cardonald, Glasgow.
The 25million plan, opposed by 700 local people, was given an outline go-ahead yesterday by Glasgow councillors.
Glasgow SNP MSP Kenny Gibson said the council was in danger of being seen as a ‘wholly-owned subsidiary’ of the Safeway chain.
A Safeway spokesman said: ‘We are investing in the community and are pleased by the decision.’
Lourdes Primary School is the school that had to be closed in 2012 due to structural faults (same faults as found in Edinburgh schools) and had the roof blown off in a storm
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-308102339.html
‘The school is just eight years old, yet it had its roof ripped off in the January storms and now this.
‘I want to know if it was a poor repair job in January or if the faults go back to its construction.’ The school was opened in 2004 after a land-swap deal with the supermarket chain Safeway, now called Morrisons.
If you want to read the whole article go here
http://search.proquest.com/barcode?accountid=15842&groupid=93264
and enter your Edinburgh Library membership number.
Living the Dream
‘…they have even given it a name,a dual economy,two societies living side by side,but hardly knowing each other,hardly imagining what life is like for the other………where the gates of the gated entrances grow higher and society splits further and further apart’
The Dual reporting of the MSM/BBC…..protecters of the gate.
Hang your head in shame.
@Gus 1940
I said 2 days ago, the next angle was to say the SNP have continued PFI. It’s being used out there.
I’m currently messaging an English blogger Another Angry Voice, who I have followed for 2 years for saying this.
He used a poisonous Carrell piece to back it up. He has a lot followers. I am furious.
I suppose Scots up here know the truth, just depends how many want to see it.
Why are people like Sarah Smith obsessing with the demise of Scot Labour. We don’t need them back and they are not necessary. Scotland has moved on and the SNP have replaced a dead Slabour Movement. Slabours swan song will be in May. After which they will just diminish until they fragment. The MSM just can’t accept that, but it’s the reality.
“A relentless 12-month bombardment of “SNP BAD!” from the media and opposition has simply bounced right off the hull of Nicola Sturgeon’s battleship, leaving barely a scratch”
Possibly the contrary has happened. Had the media been reasonable, then the support of a 9 year incumbent government might have dropped by more in a natural manner. But because the media have been so transparent, loads of people have long stopped listening, and indeed will think the opposite. If the media says something, even if it is the truth, it will be perceived as lies.
Unionists would love to see RISE and Greens taking seats away from the SNP.
First things first: Independence.
SNP x 2
@Bill
Hiding details away of ownership and address of a website is very common, I use it to avoid or at least reduce spam, and even spam phone calls. My current registrar of domains has a free anonymiser service.
As everyone else seems to want to continue with the PFI theme , John Pilger with his “what’s the secret” clip on U/tube sums the whole debacle up , the Media are doing nobody any favours by blindly protecting in this instance “Labour” because when they get round to highlighting a real matter of concern, a real scandal who is going to believe them ? this is where the BBC have failed and allowed themselves to be corrupted here in Scotland by a untrustworthy Labour party as in Russia all the people knew Pravda wasn’t to be trusted so they ignored it even when on the rare occasion it told the truth .
On RISE:
Unionists taunt us a lot to remind we are a ‘nation of warring tribes’, each chief keen to be seen as leader of Scotland’s way forward.
They have a point.
For that reason alone, I dislike the emergence of RISE at this stage in our evolution. If we are all supposedly reaching for the same ideal why wear a different colour and wave a different flag? Indeed, why have them at all?
@Bill
Privacy, that’s the word I was looking for.
It also reduces getting emails from Natasha in Russia wanting to send you photos because she saw you on facebook and thinks you’re really handsome.
Edinburgh Council are still dealing with the Statutory Repairs scandal,
Statutory Repairs was originally a good idea to keep the Edinburgh housing stock in good and safe repair after a woman was killed when a stone fell of a building,
but like going to Kwik Fit what should have been a small repair turned into almost reconstruction of flats and houses ,with big contracts to the builders,
the Council had to write of over £5,500,000 of our money and 4 people went to jail,
http://tinyurl.com/h7wsjg6
RISE have peaked in this campaign.
Their high point was Colin Fox appearing on Scotland Tonight last night.
Thepnr – let’s not forget the joy shown by Branch member Margaret Curran when that poor soul Coburn was elected as MEP.
Radio shortbread quoted Purcell the disgraced ex leader of Glasgow Council as
‘Always having concerns about PFI funding model’ and he wants a public inquiry with names being given the third degree once the SG is back in session.
I’ll have some of that. 🙂
@Grouse Beater
What I don’t like about RISE and the Greens is the sneaky underhand way they’re going about pretending that a vote for the SNP on the List is wasted and lets in unionists, even though they’ve been told and shown mathematically in great detail, many times by many people, that it’s totally untrue, the SNP get – and need – seats on the list.
It’s putting me right off them because it’s dishonest, if they wanted to pitch honestly for voters, well, it’s an election, and parties are entitled to try to get votes.
I guess you could say at least Patrick Harvie is completely open about preferring a minority SNP Government so the Green MSPs can twist their arms, on such as tax – presumably to try to force their 60% tax rate, and APD to leave it uncompetitive compared to the rest of Europe and the world.
Scot F – your linky seems broken.
Oh and a friend is still fighting the council, it ain’t over.
Robert Graham says:
13 April, 2016 at 10:12 am
As everyone else seems to want to continue with the PFI theme , John Pilger with his “what’s the secret” clip on U/tube sums the whole debacle up , the Media are doing nobody any favours by blindly protecting in this instance “Labour” because when they get round to highlighting a real matter of concern, a real scandal who is going to believe them ? this is where the BBC have failed and allowed themselves to be corrupted here in Scotland by a untrustworthy Labour party as in Russia all the people knew Pravda wasn’t to be trusted so they ignored it even when on the rare occasion it told the truth .
Ruby replies
I believe it’s called The Cry Wolf Syndrome.
Yes I do want to continue with the PFI theme. I think we should have a whole thread about PFI.
If the media are covering up crimes surely they must be considered ‘accessories’ or whatever the legal term is for someone who helps others to commit a crime.
call me dave says:
13 April, 2016 at 10:22 am
Radio shortbread quoted Purcell the disgraced ex leader of Glasgow Council as
‘Always having concerns about PFI funding model’ and he wants a public inquiry with names being given the third degree once the SG is back in session.
I’ll have some of that. 🙂
Ruby replies
It seems to me the only people not having concerns about the PFI funding model were the people who were making huge profits.
Yesindyref2: “they’ve been told, shown mathematically in great detail, many times by many people, that it’s totally untrue, the SNP need seats on the list.”
A very good point.
@SOG
Probably cause it is a PDF (?)
it was a enquiry into the scandal by Deloitt`s
who have done exactly what the building contractors have done,Deloitte`s said the enquiry would cost £800,000, it is now over £4 million,
hope this works,
http://tinyurl.com/hzdpdqd
Ruby says:
13 April, 2016 at 10:40 am
call me dave says:
13 April, 2016 at 10:22 am
Radio shortbread quoted Purcell the disgraced ex leader of Glasgow Council as
‘Always having concerns about PFI funding model’ and he wants a public inquiry with names being given the third degree once the SG is back in session.
I’ll have some of that. 🙂
Ruby replies
According to these articles Purcell was all for PFI in 2009
‘Glasgow schools ‘are being left to rot by SNP’
Davidson, Lorraine. The Times 9 Feb 2009
In an interview with The Times Mr Purcell said: “The Scottish government is putting political dogma before the crying need to put investment in school buildings.” He claimed that schools in Scotland were not being upgraded at the same rate as those in England because of the SNP’s refusal to use private finance. “It’s ironic that in the early days of the Blair Government Glasgow was the first to have a major school investment programme signed up to PFI. Having been the first out of the blocks we are falling behind, with England overtaking us,” he said. “It depresses me when I look down south and see Public Private Partnership contracts being signed week after week.”
http://bellgrovebelle.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/purcell-in-times.html
We’ll end up paying for this crazy scheme
McALPINE, JOAN. Sunday Times 22 Feb 2009: 8.
‘Pushchair power was recently mobilised against Steven Purcell, the affable and intelligent young leader of Glasgow city council. His Labour administration wants to close 13 primary schools and 12 nurseries that are either underoccupied or in a state of disrepair. Parents are furious at their children being moved into replacement super-schools, often long distances from their home.
But surely Labour are responsible for leaky roofs and broken taps? They have been in power in Glasgow for ever, and Labour governments in London and Edinburgh presided over unprecendented public investment in education for many years. But Purcell, who was previously the education convenor in Glasgow, last week blamed the SNP for his scholastic slums. It was all the fault of Alex Salmond’s government, and its hostility to the PPP and PFI model of funding building projects: that is public private partnerships and the private finance initiative for anyone living in the Democratic Peoples’ Republic of Korea for the past 15 years.’
@Grouse Beater
Thing is that Cameron has been saying things like “no second referendum”, but he can’t deny an overall majority SNP Government demanding one. But if it’s a minority SNP Government with a half-hearted Green support saying like “we want a million signature petition”, then we’re doomed.
I know you know this and most here do, but it’s worth repeating. Voters need to make sure they know their own priority, is it Independence, or is it having an effective opposition from the Greens or even a Coalition, for a permanently devolved limited power Scottish Parliament, while the momentum for Independence dwindles and disappears? Another 309 years of Westminster misrule?
Thing is there is already a database somewhere with over a million signatures declaring Yes for Independence…so why is Harvie even suggesting the need for a petition with a million signatures to establish whether there would be interest in ‘the idea’ of another ‘plebiscite’…cream crackers.
SNP x 2, it’s the only way we achieve Independence.
Use your second vote to oppose your first choice, Vote Green!
@Yesindyref2
I see Seve’s playing silly buggers again. 😀
Independence is first on the SNP’s list of priorities. For the Greens it’s maybe 3rd. For Rise they are more interested in having a socio-economic pontification than getting independence first and then having the debate.
So by voting either of these two parties , you are putting independence secondary to other perceived priorities. A sensible person knows that without independence it’s just endless debate without power to change anything.
Love the Rev’s wee headlines, “Oranges etc” think I read that. 🙂
@Ruby
Excellent work on Purcell, your a diamo…jewel! 🙂
Meanwhile the Tories waxing lyrical over their new pledge.
Polishing their brass necks!
Will their optimism be reflected in the vote?
OK I’ll stop now!
https://archive.is/Wrh2F
SNP x 2 May 5th.
@Big Jock
Completely agree. And with indyref2, RISE are being essentially dishonest in trying to trick voters about the 2nd vote.
We are trying to do away with those types of politics. RISE need to get they message.
Why would you put a RISE candidate in Holyrood with no government experience? Why don’t they stand next year? Some of the articles published on their behalf are pure cack.
Have to laugh at Purcell crawling out the woodwork to spit on his ex colleagues, but anything counts if Labour is to beheld accountable.
The horror stories about PFI are never ending.
LOCAL groups who can’t afford to use school sports facilities are to be helped out.
Glasgow City Council is to spend tens of thousands of pounds in subsidising them after prices rocketed when a consortium took the facilities over in a £1.2billion deal.
We’ll end up paying for this crazy scheme
McALPINE, JOAN. Sunday Times 22 Feb 2009
Many PFI contracts are financed by HBOS and Royal Bank of Scotland. We will soon end up in the bizarre situation of the government subsidising PFI schemes in order to guarantee returns to banks that it has previously rescued with taxpayers’ money. In the bleak years ahead, the UK will cut public spending sharply because of the huge national debt incurred to save these banks. The Scottish parliament’s budget will shrink. But we will still be obliged to meet our PFI payments to those we bailed out.
Yep Purcell was at forefront of the PFI scheme. He has absolutely no shame!
Purcell the ALEO man.
Probably cannae remember what he said about PFI.
Mibbae he should draw a line or two under it.
what is dishonest is using the arguement either way which lumps the list vote into a scotland wide vote. it isnt.
tactical voting in
south
snp1 and snp2
mid&fife
snp1 and greens2
Jim Thomson says:
13 April, 2016 at 11:38 am
Then again, did any of that appear in the PRINT edition?
Ruby replies
I check The Guardian on Press Display which gives you a digital copy of the print edition and there was no sign of the article.
http://yourlibrary.edinburgh.gov.uk/pressdisplay
While I was scanning through the Guardian I noticed that Frankie Boyle has an article entitled ‘David Cameron has no idea what normal is’ so I’m off to read that.
Scot Finlayson
Yes Scot, and I was involved in this debacle, but accumulated a mass of evidence of their wrong doing.I never stopped asking questions and querying work the proposed and, sort of carried out.
I became a major pain to them, letting them off with nothing.
I did however, prove my case in the end, even having a face to face with Deloitte. I do not think many or in fact any others got that far. I had evidence and plenty of it, they knew that.
At the end, there was no official apology for the mess they made, however, a bill over £13500 + rumours of ” extras” per property was reduced to £5k per property. ( there was 10 properties under the statutory order)
So the persistence of myself and a friend who also had a property there paid off substantially.
However, in a way I regret we did not throw it back at them, for we may have had a case for compensation, instead of any bill.
I feel sorry for those who were not so able to protect their own interests due to lack of knowledge.
@cat
Well, the key dishonesty is the Unionist media that are every time saying “overwhelming SNP majority, the battle is for 2nd place”. They’d love us to believe that.
No, the battle is for the SNP to get an overall majority, at least one more MSP than last time, so 70 minimum, or the media will be “SNP faltering, Independence dead”, and in 2020 it’ll be back to “Vote Labour to keep out the Tories”.
The current opinion poll (Survation) shows the SNP with just 67 MSPs on the constituency vote, so it needs at least 3 from the list – and that’s if you trust opinion polls. Slip to 64 constiuency and 0 on the list – no overall majority.
Bevrijdingsdag says:
13 April, 2016 at 12:10 pm
Mibbae he should draw a line or two under it.
======
🙂