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One nation united

Posted on July 15, 2015 by

Last night we highlighted the reaction from various right-wing columnists to the SNP’s torpedoing yesterday of Tory attempts to relax the laws on foxhunting in England and Wales. Today the same commentariat has turned its rage to thoughts of revenge, in the form of “English votes for English laws”.

unionjills

And we’re confused, because we don’t know what this “England” they speak of is.

First, we should illustrate with a couple of examples:

“They should stop at the Border because this has nothing to do with Scotland. These matters are devolved to the Scots – or has Labour forgotten the process it set in train some 20 years ago? It also makes it more important that the other item of business in the House this week – English votes for English laws – is pursued with the utmost vigour.” (Philip Johnston in The Telegraph)

“Hypocritical, shameless, unprincipled: Sturgeon’s stance on hunting is just the start of her war on England.” (Chris Deerin in the Daily Mail)

We could go on (and on), but you get the idea. Curiously, though, none of the outraged rants call for the only intellectually-coherent solution – an English Parliament.

Until such a thing exists (and indeed, even if it did), there is only one Parliament in the UK, which legislates for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The various devolved chambers are mere executive arms, which can ultimately be overruled by Westminster – we’ve seen that starkly demonstrated in recent weeks by the UK government’s steamrollering of Scotland Bill amendments supported by almost every single Scottish MP.

This state of affairs isn’t secret. The Prime Minister regularly speaks about governing the UK as “one nation”, and Labour spent much of the last parliament presenting itself as “One Nation Labour”. Much to the dismay of Scottish nationalists, last year’s referendum saw Scotland vote to continue as part of that one nation, under a mixture of pleading and threats from Unionists.

Except now the Unionists seem to have changed their mind.

If the UK is one nation, then it inescapably follows that there can be constitutionally no such things as Scottish MPs or English MPs in the UK parliament. There are only British MPs, representing their constituencies in various parts of Britain.

(We’re going to use that term loosely for readability, so don’t be pedantic in the comments. We know it’s not strictly the same as the UK.)

For the purposes of the constitution, then, Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales are merely regions, just like Yorkshire and Perthshire and Antrim and Gwent.

Yet there’s no clamour for MPs representing Newcastle or Aberystwyth to be excluded from votes which only truly concern (say) London, like the £15bn Crossrail network. MPs for Belfast and Torquay get to vote unchallenged on HS2, which will never come anywhere near Northern Ireland or Devon.

Even votes which only directly affect one area can have repercussions anywhere. During the referendum we were urged not to make our family in different parts of the UK “foreigners”. We were begged to all retain the same nationality, and that was the result of the vote. Yet apparently we’re now meant not to care about them any more.

kfarq

But hang on a minute. “Them” and “us” is not how we were asked to think during the referendum. When Unionists were pleading with Scots to stay in the UK, we were all one people. Yet now if a Scot lives in England and wishes to be assisted in ending their life in the event of terminal illness, and is prevented from doing so by laws made in Westminster, we’re told that their family must instruct their Scottish MP sitting in that Westminster parliament to stand aside and wash their hands of the matter, even though they live in the same “one nation”.

You can’t have it both ways. Scots chose, albeit narrowly, to have Scotland remain a region of Britain. Its MPs must therefore be allowed to vote in the UK parliament, in the interests of their British constituents, on any matter they choose. Family don’t blink in and out of existence every time they cross a regional border.

(Something which, incidentally, could literally become true in the case of Scotland and England having different laws on assisted dying. There’s a can of worms for you.)

The complaint that English MPs cannot vote on matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament is a disingenuous red herring, because the Scottish Parliament and the UK parliament are not analogous bodies – it’s Scottish (ie British) MPs who get to vote on UK laws, not Scottish Parliament MSPs.

If an English MP wants to vote on matters devolved to Scotland, they’re perfectly at liberty to stand for election to the Scottish Parliament. No law prohibits a politician from sitting at both Westminster and Holyrood – Alex Salmond, for example, currently has seats in both, as have many others. (Although interestingly, dual mandates will soon be outlawed in Northern Ireland and Wales.)

And in any event, of course, it’s simply fundamentally not true to claim that English politicians have no influence on Scottish Parliament decisions. None of the Unionist parties’ Scottish branches are independent. The notional head of the Scottish branch office of Labour is ultimately answerable to the UK Labour leader and has to do what they tell them, in the same way that Westminster can overrule Holyrood any time it chooses to. The phrase “power devolved is power retained” was coined for a reason.

There are only three solutions to the West Lothian Question – an English Parliament, abolition of the Scottish Parliament, or independence for Scotland.

Having successfully persuaded Scots (for now) to reject the latter option, and lacking the courage for the middle one, Unionists must either enact the first or shut up and lie in the marriage bed they insisted we share. We’re either one nation or we’re not.

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  1. 15 07 15 12:13

    One nation united | Politics Scotland | Scoop.it

  2. 15 07 15 13:17

    One nation united | Speymouth

123 to “One nation united”

  1. Helena Brown says:

    Yes exactly there are only two solutions to the West Lothian Question, a Federal one, and that will never happen. the other is we go for Independence. Given their reaction to a Federal Europe, I would say the former is a non runner.

  2. Calgacus says:

    We’re not, as the MSM and the Tories have made only too clear.

    Great to see the SNP coming out fighting.

  3. Graham MacLure says:

    Ein Reich anyone? With the establishment lurch to the right and the recent budget perhaps I shouldn’t be so frivolous.

  4. Chitterinlicht says:

    Constitution is all over the place.

    Unionists are like Daleks just now ‘exterminate -exterminate’ because they cannot grasp fact that England is not the UK.

    You nail it in last paragraph.

    Good stuff.

  5. Proud Cybernat says:

    When they complain that English MPs have no say in the devolved Scottish parliament then that’s just a load of piffle anyway. Does anyone really believe that the Unionist parties in Holyrood are not influenced or told what to do by their Westminster masters?

    So, to extend this with Stu’s perceptive rationale, what we actually have is the WM British MPs interfering in our devolved Holyrood parliament by telling our independently elected unionist MSPs what to do, how to vote.

    No wonder Jola stood down having had enough of their interfering.

  6. Doug Daniel says:

    Spot on. We are merely doing what we were asked to day, namely stay in the UK and play our part. Perhaps unionists should have been careful what they wished for, but that’s a bit late now.

    The SNP should essentially adopt a “work to rule” attitude, to underline what “playing our part” really means. I guess that’s pretty much what they’re doing already, but they should adopt it as a formal strategy.

    “it’s Scottish (ie British) MPs who get to vote on UK laws, not Scottish Parliament MSPs.”

    Indeed, Scottish MPs don’t get to vote on Scottish matters any more than English MPs do. The next time anyone sees someone moaning about English MPs not getting to vote on issues devolved to Scotland, people should reply “nor do Scottish MPs”, and watch them explode.

  7. Muscleguy says:

    Of course the real reason for their ire is that after the referendum was lost (or won in their terms) we were supposed to get back into our tartan shortbread tins and continue to elect lots of unionist MPs (even if they were red and yellow). That instead of doing so we elected 56/59 SNP MPs (reserving one each for unionist parties, like Indian Reservations) and those MPs are making their presence felt and so Scotland is still in the news and demanding their attention that rankles.

    I used to live in London and Scotland hardly featured on the news. We used to get NZ News UK, a freesheet to keep up with events back in NZ before the net got going. If there was a Scottish equivalent I never saw it.

    We are in THEIR news banging on about our little parochial concerns as though the referendum campaign was still in full flow. It is glorious and if there’s a secondary question in the Brexit referendum on whether Scotland should be expelled from the union I will not be unduly surprised. Naturally enough that question will not apply in Scotlandshire.

  8. Cath says:

    There is one other massive difference between Westminster and devolved parliaments, and that is a fixed budget. For England to have the same devolved issues as Scotland, its devolved government would also have to have a fixed budget to cover devolved issues, otherwise it’s just the UK parliament, spending UK taxes and increasing UK debt. There would also, of course, have to be a similar list of devolved and retained issues, as there is in the original Scotland Act. And the UK parliament – all of it – would have to be the body which decides what those devolved issues are and what its budget would be.

    It’s hard not to look at the unionists winging now and conclude that what they really want is independence. If they don’t yet realise that, all they are is deeply confused and ignorant.

  9. Tackety Beets says:

    It’s not than long ago Federal Broon was in charge o the whole cabudle with 40 odd Labour MPs voting on everything @ WM !

    The hypocracy is beyond belief.

    Text from my Pal ( an alleged No , but it was alleged to wind me up) on the morning o the 19th

    “DC fought a dirty dogged campaign , but he may rue the day he did. Maybe he would have been better to let Scotland go as it desired ”

    Well Davey what’s your thoughts.

  10. donald anderson says:

    Some of my best friends are dumb animals.

  11. Cath says:

    It’s not than long ago Federal Broon was in charge o the whole cabudle with 40 odd Labour MPs voting on everything @ WM

    Exactly. That’s the amusing thing. By singling out the SNP for different treatment – i.e. it’s fine for OUR unionist MPs to vote on English affairs, just not for YOUR ones – in the aftermath of the referendum, they are making the case for independence more eloquently than the Yes campaign ever could.

  12. Jim says:

    That picture is hilarious, draping themselves in the Union flag yet campaigning for EVEL. Confused.com

  13. Croompenstein says:

    Remember this, I’m getting all misty eyed thinking about it.. 🙂

    Mr Cameron was close to tears as he warned voters that Alex Salmond’s separatist movement had “painted a picture” of an independent Scotland that was “too good to be true”

    https://archive.is/JtzxZ

  14. Lepus timidus scoticus says:

    According to the man from the Tories on Radio Scotland this morning, the English people just won’t go for an English Parliament, as (unlike the Scottish Parliament) this won’t bring the government closer to the people in England (they seem to underestimate the size of Scotland!) Also, the English people won’t tolerate another tier of political representatives – as far as they are concerned they already have their English parliament at Westminster.

    Their tunnel vision is going to kill their supposedly beloved Union, and they don’t even appear to be able to see it. At every turn, they take the option that plays into the SNP’s hands.

  15. Swami Backverandah says:

    Bang on.
    We’re all British citizens of that glorious nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and we elect our representatives to Westminster as such.
    British Votes for British Laws, I say! 😀

  16. panda paws says:

    What really irritates me about EVEL is that apparently none of these commentators mind that London MPs will be able to vote on all English matters despite some of these matters being devolved to the London Assembly.

    Must only be the Celtic fringe that they object to then!

  17. Coinneach says:

    Personally, I’d say that if we can’t have independence, the next best option would be to abolish the House of Lords and make the current House of Commons the upper chamber – perhaps with fewer members – and have the current Scottish, Irish and Welsh assemblies/parliaments plus new regional assemblies in England taking over the day-to-day running of the country, leaving the upper chamber managing defence and foreign affairs.

  18. JimW says:

    David Cameron’s “One Nation” is well and truly on its way to being firmly established. Unfortunately, the one nation is England.

  19. Luigi says:

    My, how the stakes have risen! The SNP are always being accused of “grievance politics”, but it seems to me they are not the ones moaning now. The tables have turned and the “One Nation” tories are raging. They don’t like it up em, that’s for sure. Well, the scots have been royally screwed for 300 years, and we just ain’t taking it any more – comprende? A couple of points:

    1) Labour really have to get their act together now and start working with the SNP to defeat the tories on EVEL and a host of other important issues. It has been shown to work. Mhairi Black graciously extended a hand to Labour, with a plea to forget the past and start cooperating.

    2) The SNP now have to sort out the fox hunting legislation in Holyrood to support their current stand – pronto. I hope they don’t put it on the shelf for later – it is a weakness in the argument and will be used against them until it is changed in accordance with their stance at WM. Cameron thought he could get away with it because his proposal puts the English fox hunting legislation in line with the current Scottish one, so now the Scottish one has to be changed quickly – just to tie up ragged ends, but important not to leave it.

  20. Dan Huil says:

    I love seeing Westminster’s unionists frothing at the mouth because I know however they decide to punish Scotland it will lead to the same result: independence for Scotland.

  21. DerekM says:

    Well said Rev England is not the UK its not even Britain its England a country in the UK from the British Isles.

    But what really annoys them i think is that they are just figuring out that the wee pretend parliament they set up in Scotland to keep us in our box has backfired spectacularly on them.

    But there is more to this EVEL thing than the onions know i reckon,i am not a constitutional expert but i do believe that if they vote in EVEL it will make westminster the English parliament and in doing so will dissolve the UK parliament,no UK parliament no treaty of union and we are free.

    feel free to correct me if im wrong about this like i said i am no expert.

  22. Nation Libre says:

    So, if the Tories had 20 MPs from Scotland (I know, humour me), they would have been expected to abstain as it doesn’t affect Scotland?

  23. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I am perfectly happy for EVEL to proceed as long as the logic of it is properly carried through.
    If EVEL come is so then should SVSL ie Scottish Votes for Scottish Laws.
    That would mean that the voting on the Scotland Bill should have been reserved to MPs representing Scottish Constituencies.

    Or, better and simpler, why don’t we just split.

  24. Luigi says:

    I thought the union trumped all at WM, but now I just ain’t so sure:

    When it comes to choosing between One Nation Britain or All England, it seems that many prefer the later. This is the choice they will also have to make, sooner or later. So, old Boy, what’s it going to be:

    Britain or England?

  25. Grouse Beater says:

    The ideal situation is two parliaments with separate sovereignty as in that past, three if the vacillating Welsh felt likewise, each constitution inviolable, followed by the House of Lords removed entirely replaced with an ‘Assembly of Parliaments’ to meet regularly and also in emergency, to discuss any matter that affects all of the British Isles, that is, it has cause and effect over all the nations and protectorates, their jurisdiction to recommend universal policy.

    A transportation example might be introduction of 50 ton big rig trucks, or a high speed train that will reach Scotland and so require universal share of costs.

    If the Parliamentary Assembly recommended a single policy for all nations – 50 tons good or 50 tons bad – it cannot be implemented unilaterally unless all nations agree, thus individual sovereignty is protected.

  26. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Coinneach at 11.06

    Nope. Just another form of dependency and another complicated fiscal and constitutional layer.

    Independence is so simple

  27. galamcennalath says:

    I just posted something on the previous thread. It would have been better here.

    Short of a full English Parliament, one thing which would help the situation would be for England to have a block grant for English expenditure. A vote could be designated as EVEL when they are spending their money.

    The problem at the moment is that England is financed out of UK budgets. And, when UK money is being spent Scots MPs must have a say.

  28. Murray McCallum says:

    Rather than concentrate all their efforts on MP vote gerrymandering, why on earth don’t the Tories get on with building an English parliament.

    It could be a major boost to the economy of central England, i.e. where the parliament should logically be built.

    Given the referndums, commissions, legislation, and controls associated with the Scottish & Welsh parliaments it’s outrageous that Cameron thinks he can achieve the same for England in a few weeks by tinkering with the rules.

  29. Andrew Brown says:

    According to The National today Mr. Cameron has said anent EVEL “…it really is that you should not be able to legislate in the United Kingdom parliament against the wishes of English MPs. It’s a veto, a block, rather than a right of initiative. I think that is right.”

    And there you have it, the truth slowly emerges.

    Thank you all you No voters for making me a second class citizen in my own country.

  30. Helena Brown says:

    Luigi, there is an old joke which goes, how do you know when the London Plane as landed in Edinburgh, it still whines when the engines are turned off. I seems to me that it is the old story you can see others failings but never in yourself.

  31. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Coinneach at 11.06

    A further rejoinder.

    Defence and foreign affairs left with Westminster?
    Completely unacceptable and the two most urgent reasons why I want Scotland to be independent
    Why ever would any one think that Trident and Iraq were reasons to justify an abrogation of our international and human responsibilities?
    This oft repeated suggestion is the Scottish cringe in disguise.

  32. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Grouse Beater at 11.17

    You talk of the sort of things that could be normal under sensible confederal arrangements

  33. Jim says:

    Andrew Brown says:
    15 July, 2015 at 11:28 am

    According to The National today Mr. Cameron has said anent EVEL “…it really is that you should not be able to legislate in the United Kingdom parliament against the wishes of English MPs.
    ___________
    Again; there is no such thing as an English MP as regards the Westmister parliament.

    They are there as representatives of the constituent parts of the UK so there is no difference whatsoever between an MP for a constituency in Scotland and an MP for a constituency in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

    This is what they campaigned for and this is what they should understand.

    Until there is an English parliament with devolved responsibilities then they should shut the fuck up and accept the result of the independence referenda.

  34. Alastair says:

    Watching Scottish Questions in the HOC.
    Lots of English MP’s asking and English Ministers replying to “Scottish Questions”.

  35. Blair paterson says:

    If evel does come to pass will that mean that mundell will not be able to vote for his own party?

  36. heedtracker says:

    We’re either one nation or we’re not.

    Clearly we’re not. Look at how they used English bigotry towards Scottish democracy, with their giant Salmond’s a thieving pickpocket on England posters all across England or Sturgeon’s the most dangerous women in Britain pouring out of the BBC, even Milliband’s desperate “Labour would rather see Cameron as PM again than work with the SNP in any way whatsoever.”

    Dysfunctional UKOK doesn’t even come close.

  37. Molly says:

    The building itself is falling to bits requiring what 3 ? 7billion ?

    Ideal time for the forward thinking parliamentarians at Westminster to say -We have an ideal opportunity before we spend billions to decide what is the Houses of Parliament to be used for?

    An English Parliament on a block grant . If it’s good enough for the rest of us ( Scotland, Wales , N Ireland) mind you where are they ? Where are their voices ? What do they think?

    Imagine, we had a broadcaster that could send somebody out there to find out

  38. mike cassidy says:

    VVVL

    Vulpine Votes For Vulpine Laws!

  39. EVEL as proposed is an apartheid. It segregates and disenfranchises the Scottish electorate. It does indeed create two classes of citizens (for Scotland’s MPs are literally the living embodiment of the express will of the Scottish people).

    There will be the fully enfranchised people of England whose representitives are able to play a full part in ALL legislation brought before the UK legislature (consider the “full part” played by English MPs in voting down FFA, a policy supported by a majority of the Scottish electorate).

    Then there will be the untermenschen, the Scots, whose ability to exercise their democratic franchise will be strictly limited. Their representatives will be excluded from full participation in shaping legislation in the UK Parliament, not because they are SNP but because they represent Scotland and carry the mandate of the Scottish people.

    EVAL implemented within the context of the Union’s parliament, presents an existential threat to the Union itself. A decoupling that creates an apartheid, separate and unequal, and renders Westminster’s theatre naught but farce.

  40. Joemcg says:

    galam-the UK’s money is spent in England and Scotland’s money is spent in England. Didn’t you know that?

  41. brobb says:

    The more I read well argued posts like this the more I feel we need to find some way of getting them out into the mainstream press so that we can build awareness of the issues away from the hysterical anti-Scottish, anti SNP contributions which appear to be the norm at present

    Even one post like this with clear points and light on rhetoric/sarcasm could surely attract more sensible open minded folk across the UK to explore other posts or at the very least question the pap they have been fed for the past few years

    Have we no sympathetic contacts anywhere who could get a post like this out to a wider audience?

  42. jackie g says:

    Sorry i am going on a rant One Nation Eh? i have heard it all now.

    David Cameron Wants Us To Fund Our Own Sick Pay From Our Savings.

    Work and pensions secretary Ian Duncan-Smith is keen on the idea, (there’s a surprise) as he explained in an interview in the Sunday Telegraph.

    Duncan Smith said,

    We need to support the kind of products that allow people through their lives to dip in and out when they need the money for sickness or care or unemployment.

    We already have that Ian it is called NI 😕

    ‘We need to encourage people to save from day one but they need to know that they can get some of the money out when their circumstances change.

    ‘This is not government policy but I am very keen to look at it, as a long-term way forward for the 21st century.

    Cameron’s spokesman said,
    I think the PM shares the work and pensions secretary’s view that we should be doing more to encourage people to take personal responsibility for how they manage their affairs.

    Sorry Dave i Dont think it is the goverments business how people conduct their lives.

    ‘This isn’t government policy, it’s an idea that’s out there.

    Oh its out there all right you pair of complete arseholes 😕

    Jesus christ what next workhouses 🙁

    Sending the weans up chimneys!

    Cannae wait for the next great idea from the tories.

    ‘One Nation’ My Arse.

  43. @brobb

    “Have we no sympathetic contacts anywhere who could get a post like this out to a wider audience?”

    Just keep telling your friends and colleagues. Print this out (use the green button for best resutls) and show them. Let them read it for themselves.

  44. Craig P says:

    Nation Libre says:

    So, if the Tories had 20 MPs from Scotland (I know, humour me), they would have been expected to abstain as it doesn’t affect Scotland?

    I am looking forward to scrutinising David Mundell’s voting record. As his boss is so keen on EVEL, I am sure he has not voted on any England-only issues in the recent past, or future.

    And as someone else said, what about London MPs voting on transport, when that issue is devolved to the London Assembly??

    Daft Tories are only heading in one direction, have any of them realised it yet?

  45. katherine hamilton says:

    This EVEL thing is putting Cameron and the Tories at Westminster even more out of their depth.As far as Holyrood is concerned the Tories ARE represented by wee Ruthie and co. That they’ll never rule here is their problem and every push towards EVEL makes it ever less likely.

    If the SNP have changed strategy re voting on so called “English only” laws then so be it. This is politics. The Britnats wanted us, they’ve got us, but this time on our terms,not there’s. As the Rev said earlier on another matter – suck it up.

    The 56 SNP MP’s were elected on a set of principles and policies by their constituents that they are obliged to deliver. If proposals come forward in Parliament that are in contravention of those principles and policies then of course they should vote against them, regardless of where they are to be enacted. Two reasons- they are British MP’s and have a conscience and laws eventually define the culture of a country and what happens in England, Wales and Northern Ireland can have an impact on Scotland. We are culturally interconnected.
    (Sorry a bit of this is submitted twice. I hit the submit button in error half way through)

  46. liz says:

    @Dave McEwen Hill my thoughts exactly.

    They can’t have it both ways with evel there must be svsl and equivalents for Wales and NI

    The other solution is an English parliament – simples

  47. CameronB Brodie says:

    Stick an English parliament in Manchester. Help justify HS3.

  48. caz-m says:

    Looking for a place to house the English Parliament. You don’t need to look too far.

    If you through out the ermine draped parasites who fill the red seats next door, you would have a ready made English Parliament.

    Sorted!

  49. Lesley-Anne says:

    Dear moaning gits who laughing pass themselves off as *ahem* serious journalists.

    If you do not like what the Famous 56 are doing in Westminster then I have one very quick and easy solution for you which will eradicate all your problems in easy step.

    Waht’s that … you want to know my solution … REALLY?

    I mean are you sure … I mean ABSOLUTELY sure?

    Well O.K. then … but only if you are ABSOLUTELY sure now. 😉

    My solution, since you are so keen to know is … wait for it now … kick Scotland OUT of your DISUNITED and BROKEN union. This would ensure a number of things happening that will no doubt please you all no end.

    1) you would no longer have the Famous 56 sitting in Westminster screwing up your lovely days.

    2) Your beloved leader would be able to reduce the number of M.P.’s to below 600 without having to fight for the right in the House of Commons.

    3) The wages bill for Westminster would be drastically reduced.

    4) when it comes to move your beloved M.P.’s out of Westminster to carry out repairs you’d only have 591 to worry about relocating and not 650.

    5) your beloved leader and his ever so lovely side kicks can continue to attack and kill off the poor, ill, infirm, disabled, elderly, unemployed and homeless to YOUR heart’s content without anyone complaining.

    Don’t thank me it’s the least I can do for you. No I said DON’T thnak … no seriously DON’T thank me I’m just happy to help you out of your predicament. 😀

  50. JLT says:

    As I write this, all I can hear is the voice or the Reverend Ian Paisley

    Never! …Never!

    Never will there be an English-only Parliament. And most certainly not while the Union exists.

    The Westminster Elite know this, as told to them by Enoch Powell, who once famously said, that ‘Power devolved is Power retained’

    For Scotland …it’s either independence …or finally admitting that Scotland is no longer a nation, but just a larger region within the greater realm of England.

  51. tartanarse says:

    Evel is is a tool for creating an English parliament. This of course already exists in the form of Westminster.

    The trouble with the current set up is that “others” from the non establishment are now in a position to vote in numbers.

    Of course others have existed before in small numbers and easily outvoted or kept quiet through the usual blackmail or brown envelope procedures.

    The pesky Scots for example have always been able to vote on English matters but in the past they have always been gravy train establishment greasy pole fuckwits that knew their place in a servile BritScot kind of way.

    Holyrood was set up to quieten the Nats and let the daft minority independence Jocks think they had a voice as well as to deflect any blame for bad decisions to the “region”.

    As others have rightly pointed out, an English parliament will need to be funded. It would need a grant of some description. Lets call it erm, a Barnett formula.

    England at present is not funded at all in the sense that the other members of “union” are.

    Instead they are allowed to simply dip into the UK pot for whatever they like. This is called National spending and demonstrates that as far as those in charge of the pennies are concerned, England is the UK.

    This has to continue. The alternative is to have a referendum on an English parliament. To sell this the UK government, just the English ones mind!, will have to explain why the current set up is unfair and why England would be better off with it’s own parliament.

    The finances of all the constituent parts would have to be shown individually, income and expenditure relative to that of the region. It would expose the lies told till now about the GDP of each region.

    England would no longer be able to benefit form “being the banker”.

    Of course a centralised UK government, or Westminster will still find ways to favour England.

    English parliament would be bad for the establishment. Evel keeps the status quo and tries to stifle the SNP.

    Westminster can’t afford to allow a referendum on English parliament as the English might well vote for it, having been told how the Scots have always stolen “their” British money to give themselves a life of benefit riley and free stuff.

    The only way to solve the constitutional problem as far as Westminster is concerned is to shut up and accept the Britishness of those they begged to stay in Britain.

    Suck it up Britishers, but don’t worry this won’t last long.

  52. Chic McGregor says:

    As predicted immediately after the election, the Scottish Affairs Committee has been stuffed with English constituency mps.

    The previous Committee had 8 Scottish, mostly SLAB and only 3 English MPs.

    The new one has 4 Scottish, all SNP, and 7 English MPs.

  53. Proud Cybernat says:

    If we’re “One Nation” why is there a Scottish Questions at Westminster?

  54. Chic McGregor says:

    PS The Westminster Question?

    A one point they discussed getting rid of it because they didn’t think they would get away with it, but with every example of the SMSM turning a blind eye they grow bolder.

  55. Luigi says:

    Chic McGregor says:

    15 July, 2015 at 12:37 pm

    As predicted immediately after the election, the Scottish Affairs Committee has been stuffed with English constituency mps.

    The previous Committee had 8 Scottish, mostly SLAB and only 3 English MPs.

    The new one has 4 Scottish, all SNP, and 7 English MPs.

    English votes for Scottish laws. 🙁

  56. Joemcg says:

    Tartan-great post. An English parliament spending their own cash raised in England would certainly be a wizard of oz moment when the curtain is finally pulled back. Probably game over for this unequal union.

  57. Luigi says:

    tartanarse says:

    15 July, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    As others have rightly pointed out, an English parliament will need to be funded. It would need a grant of some description. Lets call it erm, a Barnett formula.

    Indeed, but think of all the dosh that will be saved when the HoL is abolished.

  58. Chic McGregor says:

    English Votes for English Rulers You Tedious Highland Ingrates Now Get Stuffed.

    or EVERYTHING for short.

  59. Chic McGregor says:

    err Grovel?

  60. heedtracker says:

    Dear moaning gits who laughing pass themselves off as *ahem* serious journalists.

    Lesley-Anne, then we get showered with “how dare you leave us on our own and condemn England to endless Tory rule” alongside, “too small, poor, stupid Scotland,” in conjunction with, sneering Scottish Tory creep show and their brand of malice dripping condescension, like FFA for Dummies, the Dummies there are voters like you and me that want their country back, because Scotland’s not somehow preordained to be run and exploited by its UKOK neighbour and as we already know, unionists make everyone in Scotland worse much off than our friends in the south of teamGB. Funny that.

  61. scott says:

    O/T Just heard this on Daily Politics Andrew Neil James Langdale were at Lynton Crosby Cameron’s friend and adviser party last night says it all really all tories together what a bunch of wankers

  62. Luigi says:

    If Labour could just get over their GE huff and start working with the SNP and other parties, there are many golden opportunities coming to give the tories a truly awful time over the next term. Make them suffer.

    I do hope they get their act together – they seem to be in disarray at the moment, putting it mildly.

  63. Tackety Beets says:

    Ref EVEL ;
    I noticed last week some on The Beeb some are now calling / pronouncing it ” EH-V-EHL ” as opposed to EVIL as it has generally been pronounced.
    Jo Coburn (Daily PoliticsBBC 2) has been at pains to pronounce it as EH-V-EHL , so cringey!

    I agree with above posts that the real issue on an English Parly is the funding and consequential scrutiny . Whereas currently they effectively have the benefit of the UK purse.

    Building an EP , bearing in mind the need to spend so much on HOC , could very easily be justified.

  64. Dr Jim says:

    30 minutes a week for Scottish Questions

    20 minutes of it nothing to do whatsoever with Scotland

    It seems fairly clear that the NO voters and Unionists seem to like this arrangement

    Scotland has the powers to do something different they say
    Scotland should put up taxes to pay for anything they want
    Scotland should tell us what they are going to do with these new tax powers they say

    Unionists Numpties in Scotland are actually believing this shit
    I’ve said before I’m no economic expert but it seems to me unless you actually have “All” tax collecting powers you can’t do anything but collect them

    The minute you start doing something more the Barnet formula is reduced so your position is worse than when you started

    Why is it folk think with half a power you can do all the things

  65. Balaaargh says:

    Sorry Rev, but there is a fourth option- do nothing.

    And then complain bitterly about how unfair it is.

  66. Grouse Beater says:

    I think Tsipras will survive presenting an intensely disliked EU package, but I am not sure if he will win the vote for the best deal he could get out of German’s obduracy.

    Our democracy is in just a shaky start but in just as committed hands … so this to read before I write about other related matters:

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/a-land-fit-for-heroes/

  67. call me dave says:

    Cameron’s blunderbuss, EVEL and the fox.

    For connoisseurs of the art, it is a lovely piece of sophistry.

    https://archive.is/MSzEY.

  68. Chic McGregor says:

    CamB
    It would make more sense to move the UK Parliament there and make Westminster in the heart of ‘Middle’ England the English Parliament.

    It would mean the BBC reporters wouldn’t need to travel up to Manc to cover English FMQs (which would then of course be its prime focus)

  69. Desimond says:

    David is probably being told…if you cant remove Holyrood, by pass it.

    Lord Wullie Haughey now presides over Glasgows “City Fund”. I await more attempts to take the focus away from Holyrood as we progress through this Parliament.

    Its amazing to have folk all over Scotland now sitting thinking “Oh cant wait for next Council elections!”

  70. brobb says:

    Noel Chidwick says:

    Just keep telling your friends and colleagues. Print this out (use the green button for best resutls) and show them. Let them read it for themselves.

    I do share any posts I think are really important/informative already but I suspect I’m preaching to the converted or ignored by those not interested. Sadly for many people any Wings link is toxic and folk won’t open links or read with any open-mindedness. I think Stu needs a second identity to infiltrate some of the mainstream media but would probably be unearthed quite quickly.

    Is it possible to copy/print out posts without any obvious mention of source for handing out or leaving in public places? It’s not that I don’t want Stu not to get credit for his writing, just a way to reach other folk put off by the Wings link for whatever reason

  71. Craig MacInnes says:

    One could never accuse any Unionist of intellectual rigour. They really ARE thick as mince.

  72. John Simlett says:

    In February 2002 the Devolved Scottish Parliament voted by eighty three to thirty six to pass legislation to ban hunting with hounds. Perhaps the Welsh should have been allowed to vote on this as you want to vote on ours?

    cymru am byth

  73. Geoff Huijer says:

    ‘You can’t have it both ways’.

    Unfortunately as has been evidenced they can;
    and generally they can because ‘our’ media
    refuse to shine a light on all the discrepencies.

    There is no doubt in my mind that had we had a
    fair and unbiased media dedicated to scrutinising
    both sides of IndyRef YES would have romped home.

    Wings played an incredibly important part in
    revealing Unionist duplicity but with the BBC
    and SKY ruling the airwaves and Unionistas ruling
    print media it was perhaps inevitable that many
    would be duped.

  74. One_Scot says:

    With every passing day it could not be any clearer that the UK is effectively four different jigsaw puzzles and no matter how much glue, scissors, Sellotape and pissing about with it you do, it will never make one picture.

    You would think it must be becoming painfully obvious by now to even the most politically inept of people what the solution is.

  75. Gary45% says:

    It will eventually become fact, Scotland more than helps to finance the UK.

    Our Southern cousins know we subsidise them, that’s one of the main reasons they were so desperate to hold on to Scotland.
    We had the “We love You, Don’t Leave Us” love bombing,
    What a load of SHITE.

    Once the oil has run out, and they have killed off the industries we will get independence whether we like it or not.

    I think the time has come to start the referendum ball rolling, some say in another 10 years etc.
    How about 2017, because I like many others are getting sick to the back teeth with the racist garbage coming out daily from Engerland shire.

    Scotland will always be treated like a poor colony,
    It’s in the empires genetic makeup, to take what they can, destroy what they can, then blame someone else and then move on to the next victim.
    The type of picture at the top has never bothered me before,but the butchers apron is becoming very offensive. But on a cheerier note
    Girls Aloud have let themselves go.

    If they don’t like us having elected power they can FOX OFF.

  76. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jim says: 15 July, 2015 at 11:02 am:

    “That picture is hilarious, draping themselves in the Union flag yet campaigning for EVEL. Confused.com”

    Indeed, Jim. I remembered an incident many years age, (before things got more vicious), when I was on my way to the annual Scotland vs England Hampden international. As I was about to pass a coach, draped in Union flags, I decided to have a bit of fun.

    So, as the England fans, festooned in their union jack colours and singing, “God Save the Queen”, spilled out of the coach, I innocently asked, “Hi guys, what team are you supporting today”?

    Jaws dropped and there was a moments stunned silence then several spoke at once, “Can’t you see our national flags and colours and hear our national anthem”?

    So I said, “Yes lad’s but those flags & colours don’t tell me which country in the United Kingdom you are supporting – I had assumed it was Scotland as you were singing our National anthem ad there was blue in the colours on your rosette.

    Back then you only saw St George’s Cross Flags on St George’s day for the English honestly thought the flag and anthem were indeed their English only symbols. What’s more, even all goods produced in Scotland carried the slogan, “Made in England”. Can you imagine such as a pack of Scottish baked Oat Cakes was stamped Made in England as was the, exclusively produced in Glasgow, Singer Sowing Machines.

  77. Luigi says:

    No worries folks, the truth is getting out. The establishment/MSM may think they are all-powerful, but in reality all they can do is slow the flow of people to independence, not block it completely. The downside for them is that it also hardens the other side – where do you think 56 SNP MPs came from? The swings required, and achieved on May 8th were stupendous. Of course, this is the establishment strategy – hold things up for long enough and hopefully people will get fed up and things will go back to ‘normal’. It’s the last thing they can now do whilst maintaining the veneer of democracy. Well, it ain’t exactly going according to plan, is it?

    It’s not just a matter of information and misinformation (important though these are). Propaganda walks a fine line between fear and ridicule. It’s people’s belief systems, which change slowly, and more and more people just don’t believe the British MSM any more. Time is on our side, folks. This cannot be rushed. People aged 65+ are turning to social media in record numbers (and IMO increased support for indy in this group will follow).

    It is frustrating, but there are a number of important steps still to be taken before independence. Be assured that the clock is ticking.

    No army can stop an idea whose time has come. [Victor Hugo]

  78. Petra says:

    @ brobb says at 11:57 am ”Have we no sympathetic contacts anywhere who could get a post like this out to a wider audience?”

    Yeah Brobb, Rev Stu posts one most informative, absolutely enlightening article / s after another on here. He should be Editor of one of the most popular newspapers in Scotland better still the UK.

    What if we all contact say the Daily Record and make a request for Rev Stu to have his own column in their newspaper in line with T Chrichton, K Dugdale and J MacAlpine? That would be a cracker.

  79. Effijy says:

    This really beggars belief these Hypocritical Unionist Thieves call us Hypocritical.

    What SNP are doing is to take up their rightful and duly elected option of voting on anything that is motioned within the Westminster parliament.

    They very magnanimously didn’t take up this option previously, when matters appeared not to affect Scotland, but that was a choice that left their constitutional right to vote fully intact.

    They say we are undemocratic? Is that similar to 58 out of 59 Scottish MPs being told by 1 Scottish Tory what they can and cannot do. Nothing democratic in there for me.
    Draconian bully boy tactics I can see.

    It confuses me further why SNP would show their hand by indicating that they would vote, and against their proposals.
    Tell them nothing, as they are no more than right wing psychopaths, compulsive liars, and puppets of the Elite 10%
    who fill their MPs pockets for dirty and immoral services rendered.

    I still fail to see why SNP’s 56 votes carry a motion in a parliament has 650 votes?
    If all Blue Tory MPs vote in defiance of SNP, they have the 326 votes to do carry it off.

    Would it be more accurate to say that this Bill failed as
    a significant number of Blue Tory MPs have borrowed a conscience regarding tearing an innocent Fox to Pieces, or have some of them realised that 80% of the population are against Foxhunting?

    Can we also record that the Red Tories are now desperate to find something, anything, with which they could say they disagreed with their Blue brothers. Without their
    Red Tory votes, SNP’s voting would be negligible.

    England Robs Scotland of all its income, distorts our income to a lower level by claiming Whisky exported out of Tillbury Docks becomes English, by claiming the oil from the stolen 6,000 miles of Scottish Waters is English, by charging VAT on our Police Services, the money becomes English etc.

    They take all our money, we subsidise them, they lie about the reality of the situation, and then accuse us of being subsidy junkies, and take offence if we choose to comment?

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    O/T:

    Just reading a couple of news items and wondering why there is no BBC, Radio links being made between the two.

    UN-employment in the United Kingdom has increased by 15,000 and employment in Scotland is UP by 15,000.

    The Scottish unemployment rate is now 5.5%, which is below the rate of 5.6% for the whole of the UK and the Scottish employment rate of 74.3% is now above the UK average of 73.3%.

  81. JLT says:

    One_Scot says:

    with every passing day it could not be any clearer that the UK is effectively four different jigsaw puzzles and no matter how much glue, scissors, Sellotape and pissing about with it you do, it will never make one picture.

    LOL! Well One_Scot …you could be wrong! All I can see is one of those paintings by Picasso. You know …where the nose is at the ear and both eyes are on one side of the face. LOL! Yep …it describes our political setup for the UK perfectly. But the question is …is it a masterpiece?

    (…and the is answer …naw! It’s a complete ‘dug’s dinner’)

  82. Luigi says:

    It will be very interesting to see how popular or unpopular the SNP’s decision was with ordinary people (in Scotland and the UK).

  83. @brobb

    When you click on the green button above you can choose to print the article or save it as a PDF you can download or email.

    It has wingsoverscotland.com in the header, but it’s not prominent. You could probably even trim it off if you want, or just hold your thumb over it while someone reads it.

    Then reveal the truth – Wings is right!

  84. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Perhaps the Welsh should have been allowed to vote on this as you want to vote on ours?”

    Perhaps you should read the article properly, where that point is addressed.

  85. Annette says:

    There are few things that I like better than a precise logical analysis. Thank you for this.

  86. msean says:

    I always thought that I would see an independent Scotland in my lifetime,I still do believe that. I hoped the referendum would be won, but in retrospect things are never that easy.

    It seems that everything the unionists used to to persuade Scots to stay has been discarded,making it harder for themselves next time,and there will be a next time.

    A lot of organisations, like Deutsche bank,changed their position later, even the BBC seems to be getting mugged now as a thank you. The lesson is don’t work with the Tories,it will harm your organisation when they don’t need it any more. “One nation” Labour and the Libdems also found this to be the case. Didn’t Labour advisors tell Ed during the indyref that he sounded like a Tory and what that may lead to in the general election?

  87. Robert Peffers says:

    @Swami Backverandah says: 15 July, 2015 at 11:05 am:

    “We’re all British citizens of that glorious nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and we elect our representatives to Westminster as such.

    Aye! Swami, but remember what I’ve been harping on about since I read the paper commissioned by the United Kingdom Parliament entitled: –

    “Annex A Opinion: Referendum on the Independence of Scotland – International Law Aspects”,

    and written by – Professor James Crawford SC
    Professor Alan Boyle.

    This was the, (frankly quite idiotic), document that David Mundell quoted the following from : –

    The Treaty of Union “EXTINGUISHED” the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.

    Here is what the SNP website said at the time : –
    http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/feb/tory-says-union-extinguished-scotland

    So this is not only the Tory Government’s official view but was produced under commission by the UK Civil Service and thus also the official Tory Party view. It can be of little surprise to anyone why they now behave as they do.

    They obviously believe the Westminster Parliament is indeed the Parliament of the Kingdom of England, (all three countries of it), and that their only actual legally equally sovereign partners in the United Kingdom, (The Kingdom of Scotland), no longer exists. Now how convenient would that be if it were in fact legally true?

  88. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi brobb.

    If you’re sending someone a link to a Wings article, and you think they may ignore it if they see it’s WOS, you could disguise the url by using,

    http://tinyurl.com

    Click on this next link to see where it leads:-

    http://tinyurl.com/nw4daey

  89. patsy says:

    I can’t wait to see the fallout from all of this. Cameron thought he was so clever but our Nicola is more clever. We are biding our time it seems. Pity it’s the summer break – was just getting interesting.As usual bad press from the media but we Scots have become inured to that. Looking forward to next episode (and Indy).

  90. Robert Peffers says:

    @panda paws says: 15 July, 2015 at 11:05 am:

    ” … Must only be the Celtic fringe that they object to then!”

    Wow! Have you got that all wrong!

    The Kingdom of England annexed Wales in 1284, (Statute of Rhuddlan), and annexed all Ireland, in 1542, (Crown of Ireland Act). Then signed the bipartite Treaty Of Union with Scotland in 1706/7, which treaty was between two equally sovereign kingdoms.

    Then, as I point out to Swami up-thread, they have now commissioned a couple of crazy, so called experts, to produce a document that claims, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

    They are obviously attempting to make the case that Scotland is also just part of the Kingdom of England. Their big problem is that the Treaty of Union 1706/7 says nothing of the sort and when they signed it the other two parts of the, “Celtic Fringe”, had already been annexed into the English Kingdom and the present setup is NOT entitle, “The United Kingdom”, for nothing.

  91. Stoker says:

    Proud Scots But – Union Jockies – so called because they just love being shafted by their Westminster masters.

  92. katsoft says:

    Slightly off track. Has anyone else noticed that the pronuciation of EVEL has gone from sounding like EVIL to now sounding EV as from evian and EL as from elephant. I noticed this change over the past week. Do you think maybe someone from WM perhaps “asked” the MSM to make it sound less like what the intention is = EVIL

  93. Robert Peffers says:

    @Luigi says: 15 July, 2015 at 11:17 am:

    “When it comes to choosing between One Nation Britain or All England, it seems that many prefer the later. This is the choice they will also have to make, sooner or later. So, old Boy, what’s it going to be:

    Britain or England?”

    Actually, Luigi, it can be neither.
    Britain includes the non-UK Republic of Ireland, The non-UK Bailiwick of Jersey, Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man. While England is just a country and the Kingdom of England includes Wales & What’s left of Ireland after the Republic left.

    So it is either a fully equal bipartite UK or an independent Scotland,

  94. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 15 July, 2015 at 11:26 am:

    “Short of a full English Parliament, one thing which would help the situation would be for England to have a block grant for English expenditure. A vote could be designated as EVEL when they are spending their money.

    The problem at the moment is that England is financed out of UK budgets. And, when UK money is being spent Scots MPs must have a say.”

    If only it were so simple, galamcennalath.

    The problem isn’t just that England is funded as the United Kingdom but Westminster legislates for England, Wales and N. Ireland using the English legal system. It then tags wee clauses onto the English legislation to accommodate the few things that they have change due to devolving powers to Wales & N.I, and the completely different independent Scottish legal system.

    If you look at a particular act it will be titles something like The Road Traffic Act, (date), and an added clause like, The Road Traffic Act, (Scotland), (date), which takes account of the different Scottish legal system.

    To all intents and purposes the Westminster parliament is indeed the de facto Parliament of England.

  95. lumilumi says:

    People here and elsewhere have mooted some kind of a federal solution but I see that riddled with problems.

    The simple basic idea is separate parliaments in Scotland, Wales, NI and England and then some sort of a federal parliament for foreign policy, defence, some other things.

    How would the national parliaments be funded? Some Barnett-style block grant or something approaching FFA? (and make no mistake, “extra-regio” North Sea oil&gas would still be “federal”!)

    What powers would be devolved, what retained? (The devolved parliaments now have different powers.) How would this be reflected in the funding arrangements?

    What would the fedral parliament be like? The danger is that England could still overrule Scotland, Wales and NI by sheer numbers as it is the most populous “state” in the federation. SE England could overrule other English regions in the English Parliament because it’s most populous. Should England be divided into several “states”, roughly equal in population?

    Would the federal parliament be unicameral or bicameral? I’m an advocate of unicameral parliaments in proportional representation parliaments of unitary states but not necessarily federal states.

    The US has the elected Congress (lower house) where representative numbers from the various states are allocated roughly by population share but in the elected Senate (upper house) each state has the same number of representatives – it’s a safeguard against more populous states riding roughshod over less populous states.

    Now, I’m sure you’re beginning to see the problems. ENGLAND funded by Barnett formula?! English regions having their own assemblies/parliaments?? Abolish House of Lords and replace it with an elected federal senate where Scotland, Wales and NI have equal representation to England??? This is not at all what EVELists want. They want English votes for English laws and English votes for everybody else’s laws as well.

    One of the biggest problems I personally have with a federal UK scenario is that foreign policy and defence would still be federal. That could well mean continued Trident, aircraftless aircraft carriers, strutting on the world stage and participating illegal wars. One of the big attractions of Scottish independence is the chance of getting rid of Trident and a more conciliatory foreign policy.

  96. lumilumi says:

    Two of the ladies in the picture seem to be sporting aprons that have eliminated the cross of St George from the Union Jack…

  97. Clootie says:

    Several people have already pointed this out but I believe it is key to understanding the mindset of the Majority in England.

    They find the terms English and British interchangeable – both mean English.
    The Union Flag and the St. George cross are interchangeable – both represent England.
    …and of course Whitehall / Westminster / etc are English institutions which accepted some representation by the Scots (The nice Scots who did what they were told not these nasty types we have now). The important thing being that they would ALWAYS be outvoted.

    I could list more examples but those on this site know where I am going. It is not through malice or ill will that the majority do it it is just years of conditioning. From Trafalgar (100 years after the union) – “England expects…etc” to the Battle of Britain and Englands finest hour the scene has been set.

    England ADDED Scotland to it’s Empire. The Union was a political tool to enable what could not be done by force.

    It will never change unless we become an independent nation once again.We have seen how little they will concede as regards real power through devolution.

    I have no anger towards the English but I do not want to seek their permission to be a nation nor to speak as a nation. I wish to stop my culture and values being eliminated or reduced to token symbols for tourists.

    “As long as but a hundred of us remain alive…”

  98. Andrew Scott says:

    It doesn’t take long for a couple of pertinent questions to undermine the logic if EVEL and what the logical consequences are. A good read for all.

  99. Robert Peffers says:

    @John Simlett says: 15 July, 2015 at 1:15 pm:

    “In February 2002 the Devolved Scottish Parliament voted by eighty three to thirty six to pass legislation to ban hunting with hounds. Perhaps the Welsh should have been allowed to vote on this as you want to vote on ours?

    cymru am byth

    Take it up with your little English friends in Westminster, John, (and use your own brains instead of theirs).

  100. sensibledave says:

    The Rev

    Sir, you wrote: “There are only three solutions to the West Lothian Question – an English Parliament, abolition of the Scottish Parliament, or independence for Scotland.”

    Sorry Sir, you summary is just plain wrong. The “West Lothian” question is simply about fairness – and you know it. Yesterday’s hunting non-debate fiasco summed up the issue where, purely for political reasons, the SNP decided to do a 180 to skew the outcome of a perfectly reasonable discussion about hunting in England, by English MPs, that only affect people in England – just because they could.

    Unusually for you, you went all “Daily Mail” on us with vivid pictures and lurid words with the inference being that the nasty Tories were repealing the hunting ban and wanted to rip foxes to shreds via hounds – whilst, in Scotland, everyone sits around cuddling foxes of an evening. Even today, I am still seeing comments from people who believed the inferences in your articles. Lets be clear here, the only thing that can be said about the difference in hunting laws in England and Scotland is that the Scottish laws are more relaxed than the English – and you know it.

    So, returning to your quote, you want those three options to be the only options – but they are not.

    Clearly, the most obvious solution would be Independence for Scotland. However that was rejected recently, and as I write, there are no new proposals for another referendum any time soon. To summarise, the electorate of Scotland voted against Independence, they didn’t want it. Furthermore, it is also obvious (certainly to me) that Independence cannot be foisted on Scotland if the voters don’t want it. So unless and until there is another referendum, and a Yes vote, then Independence for Scotland isn’t going to happen. Instead of spending time winding up the English, perhaps the SNP spending a little more effort in converting just 2.6% of the Scottish voters to switch their vote from No to Yes might be more productive?

    What do you think the average No voter in Scotland thinks of the performance of the SNP yesterday? Do you think they will feel warmer towards them as a result? Do you think they will trust them more?

    The 57 odd million of us that don’t live in Scotland however, need to get on with our lives. We are not going to sit on our hands for the next X many years not trying to improve things, not trying to address issues that are relevant only to the English or address issues of fairness and imbalance – whilst we wait (forever?) for Scotland to absolutely determine its future. We have to move forward with the mandate that we currently have from the voters in Scotland i.e Independence is rejected and they want Westminster to carry on.

    The abolition of the Scottish Parliament isn’t going to happen. Again, the Scottish Parliament exists, has evolved and will continue to evolve as long as Scotland remains part of the Union.

    That brings us to your only remaining option apparently, i.e. an English Parliament. If you mean by that, a separate group of elected representatives sitting in a different place – then that isn’t going to happen. There is no need, nor will or desire in England for another separate, expensive executive. Yesterday’s events proved the need for change and also demonstrated that the English cannot rely on what others say they will or wont do.

    For some reason I personally do not understand, Hague’s proposed version of EVEL was floated as the solution. However, yesterday’s events have shown me (and many others) that that wont work. Having a veto is no use if you want to do something positive – it only stops potentially negative things. I therefore expect a new version of EVEL to be presented that will mean that English MPs will only vote on English matters. Robert Peffers will redoubtably ask how that can possibly be. The answer is simple Robert, a law will be passed in Westminster.

    Now, it is quite possible that all of this is following some SNP master plan that will ultimately achieve their goals. However I doubt it. The evidence seems to be that they are making it up on the hoof and, frankly, playing a stinker. For example, and is often mentioned here on Wings, the average English voter may not have agreed with Ms Sturgeon’s politics but she had huge admiration for her conviction, style, commitment and decency – and then yesterday happened, and we witnessed a 180 from her for no reason other than spite or opportunism. Very sad.

    Only the other day, I wrote on Wings how impressed I was by Tommy Sheppard after his appearance on QT. Then, last night, I cringed as I watched the poor chap wriggle and spin just like all the other robot, party apparatchiks sent on to the media to defend some indefensible move or faux pas by a party. He asked me to believe him that he was going to vote on the fox hunting debate in England, that affects 57 million English people – because, allegedly, he had received 650 letters and emails from people in England pleading for him to intervene.

    So if the SNP master plan was to stop the planned version of EVEL being implemented then, mission accomplished. Obviously, the next version of EVEL will allow less input from non-English MPs. If that was the SNP goal as part of the master plan, then again, mission accomplished.

    However, personally, I rather suspect it was an inept cock up.

  101. Robert Peffers says:

    @Effijy says: 15 July, 2015 at 2:04 pm:

    “England Robs Scotland of all its income, distorts our income to a lower level by claiming Whisky exported out of Tillbury Docks becomes English, by claiming the oil from the stolen 6,000 miles of Scottish Waters is English, by charging VAT on our Police Services, the money becomes English etc.

    I’ll have to correct you there, Effijy.

    They just don’t claim the whisky as English exports but all other Scottish produced goods that leave the UK via English Ports/airports as well. Any Scottish Produced item that leaves an English port or airport is classed as English exports which is why they are so set on increasing the capacity of Heathrow.

    Think just how apparently stupid it seems to have the entire UK’s main air-routes all passing out of the UK from a point at one extreme end of the UK.

    Good sense says build it in a central location to cut down on congested of road, rail and air space, fuel use and infrastructure. Then you realise that it funnels Welsh, Scottish and even N. Irish exports through the accounts as English and you know why they do it.

    As to your idea that they only stole the 2,000 square miles of oil & gas revenues – they actually also continue to steal the entire annual oil & gas revenues.

    Scotland gets absolutely none of the oil & gas revenues because it is all claimed as UK revenues by classing it as coming, not from Scotland, but from, “Extra-Regio Territory”,(Of which 95% is in Scottish territory).

    They then do the books for the UK and, without giving Scotland a single penny of it, just on paper only, credit Scotland with having earned 8.4% of that 100% of Extra-Regio revenue.

    Thus, all of Scotland’s entire income comes via the Barnett Formula. This is what calculates the, “Scottish Block Grant”. Even then they further control that block grant by tying the total to English expenditure. Then by use of positive and negative Barnett Consequentials they reduce, or expand it, according to English per capita funding, and they even cheat that by funding many English stuff such as, UK “National”, things such as National Art Galleries, museums, theatres, ballet and so on as well as Olympic Stadiums, Chunnel and even London Cross-Rail and London Sewage schemes.

  102. Paula Rose says:

    @ sensibledave

    Why are you not campaigning for a devolved English parliament? Surely that is the crux of the matter?

  103. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    England, to reflect differences in public opinion, needs at least 8 regional devolved parliaments.

    I know where I think they should be but I’ll let others pontificate.

    Then sack the members of the HoL and use that as the Federal parliament. 9 members from each federal parliamentary area, voted in on a sub-regional basis, (like Scotland’s ‘list’ vote) – NI, Scotland, Wales, and the 8 English regions, giving us a UK parliament of 99 members. No need for a casting vote!

  104. lumilumi says:

    @BDTT, 7.28pm

    Exactly what I was musing about. 😀

    And I just don’t see it happening. It’d require lots of “un-English” things like a written constitution and decentralising power.

    To give credit where credit is due, one English Tory (sorry, didn’t catch the name) in the EVEL debate called for a written constitution.

  105. David says:

    I assume there was/is no problem with MPs from Scotland voting when they are from good old Labour, conservative and lib dem parties.

  106. Grouse Beater says:

    Sorry Sir, you summary is just plain wrong.

    I am as convinced as I can be that ‘Sensible Dave – a contradiction in the same category as a right-wing think tank calling itself the Institute of Democracy – that Dave is Mr Topiary ‘Tache himself, Michael White.

  107. wull says:

    Mr. Cameron wasn’t lying when he said ‘real change is Scotland’s for the taking’. It’s just that he did not spell out the change he had in mind. What he meant was ‘Vote No, and We’ll Extinguish You’.

    Now, extinction – who can deny that extinction really is ‘real change’. Just as Mr. Cameron promised: Just vote ‘no’ and I will transform you from ‘something’ into ‘nothing’, from ‘being’ into ‘non-being’. I am the Great Magician and, as if by magic, I will make you vanish altogether, disappearing into nothingness. Not even in a puff of smoke … you won’t even see it happening. You will just … disappear.

    In the process, Mr. Cameron has to extinguish – literally – the 1707 Act of Union. He is changing the Union into something it never was, and never has been. ‘Behold’ – with one wave of my magic wand – ‘I make all things new’. Well, if not quite ‘all things’, then at least – at the very least – ‘this UK-thing …’

    Mr Cameron is providing this UK-thing (‘our UK’) with a new basis, and making the old basis – the legal basis, on which it was founded, by which it first came into existence – disappear. This is the ABRACADABRA-UK: by my magic words I make the old UK disappear and I bring the new one into existence.

    Truly, this is ‘real change’; just what was promised. For Scotland to cease to exist, the United Kingdom must no longer have the Act of Union as its basis.

    So what is ‘our United Kingdom’, as Mr. Cameron keeps calling it, based on, if the old basis has been taken away? And what does he mean by ‘our’? Who does he include in his ‘our’? And who does he exclude from ‘our UK’, the new one he is creating?

    Or is it only ‘his’, this new UK? Is it ‘the royal we’ he is using when he speaks of ‘our UK’? Does he mean a United Kingdom he has invented in his own head?

    Invented ‘out of nothing’, that is, because it bears no relation to the previous United Kingdom we all used to belong to, and which the Great Magician is abolishing in front of our very noses.

    Even dyed-in-the-wool self-defining Unionists – did they ever really knew what the Union was? – have no nose for this. They can’t smell what’s happening. They are hanging on for dear life to an old UK which their Prime Minister and his pals (think they) have laready extinguished.

    In practice, but quite illegally, the (Tory-led) Unionists are re-defining the legal basis of the United Kingdom. They won’t say it out loud but in their minds the entity that came into existence in 1707 no longer exists; or them, it was always a fiction, and now it is no more. The old UK has transmuted into something else, something completely different. They are still calling it the United Kingdom, but it is no longer the United Kingdom of the days of yore; it is ‘our’ United Kingdom. Not ‘yours’: ours!

    They are ‘nominalists’, of course. The name’s the same, but the actual thing to which the name now refers bears no resemblance to the thing it used to refer to.

    The legal way to do this would be to introduce legislation into the Westminster parliament which would repeal the 1707 Act of Union, or modify it, or even abolish it altogether.

    But that’s too up-front. Too open. It would too easily give the game away. Even most of their own No-voting Scottish Unionists would desert them if they came out with it. David Mundell would be the only man left standing; and as for these good Unionist women, even Ruth Davidson would find it a step too far.

    Mr. Cameron and his One-England Unionists can’t afford to be honest about their real intentions. They couldn’t say outright that the ‘real change’ they were offering Scotland was its extinction. They couldn’t admit that the ‘Scotland Bill’ they had in mind was in fact an abbreviation: what they envisaged all along was an ‘Assisted Dying Bill – for Scotland)’. A bill that would kill Scotland off for ever. ‘Real change’ – just like we promised.

    The Better Together / No Campaign did not tell us beforehand that voting No was a suicidal act. They offered us beautifully-coloured, sugar-coated sweeteners to coax us into their corner. They didn’t tell us that the nucleus within that wonderful, change-producing pill was cyanide.

    Alex Salmond said Scotland was ‘changed for ever’, but David Cameron thought of it first! Not in the same way, of course.

    To be fair, the front-men of the No campaign did not know what was happening themselves. They should have done, but … didn’t.

    Alastair Darling didn’t know it – he was too busy running around doing the bidding of those who did know. He was too busy to find out the hidden intentions that lay underneath. Gordon Brown didn’t know it either – he genuinely convinced himself that all that arm-waving tosh with which he filled the airwaves was true. The Last Chancer pouring it all out at the Last Chance Saloon, and on camera as well.

    The tragedy is not that the front-men were insincere. Not even that they were miles wrong. But that they were duped.

    Well and truly duped – above all by the Behind-the-Scenes-Man. The one who never came out to fight in the open. And who got away with it.

    EVIL was ever thus. Lurking in the shadows. Never out in the open. Always staying hidden. The string-pulling puppet-master who wreaks havoc wherever he goes, whatever he does. Through those he manipulates, without them even being aware he is doing it. The Pretendy Creator, the Great Magician, the one whose meaningless word trips ever so smoothly off his fanged tongue.

    Poor old UK, to have fallen into such hands.

    Since the extinction of Scotland cannot be achieved legally, other means must be found.

    We know what that means: propaganda. Lies, from the Father of Lies.

    Keep telling the lie often enough, and loud enough, until people’s minds are numb enough to succomb to the stuff … It’s an old story. Goebbels did not invent it. … And then they’ll start believing it is true, and acting in the way we want them to.

    So the Unionists are actually re-defining the Union they don’t belive in under our very noses, and they are using ‘old unionists’ to achieve their purpose. To turn the Union these ‘ye olde Unionists’ think they are saving into the entirely ‘new’ thing Cameron and his cohorts are inventing. Turning that olkd thing into whatever shape they want, as if it was made of plasticene. Plasticene that is in their hands only – ‘our’ United Kingdom.

    Don’t let anyone dupe you. Amazingly, incredibly, this is still the project of Edward I. ‘We’ve (the royal ‘we’) we’ve extinguished Wales; now we’ll extinguish Scotland too’. This is the ‘English’ version of ‘the Union’ in full swing, as if 700 years of history have never happened, and 300 years of actual Union – the old Union we all used to belong to – simply did not take place.

    Incredibly, unbelievably, but truly – none of that has made the slightest difference. This is the old – 700-year-old – imperial project revived, as if the problem was never ever resolved, as if nothing has happened in between. We Scots have been duped for centuries. There never was a Union as we conceived it, and as was set out in the legal documents that brought it (or seemed to bring it) into existence. These really were fictions. Pure legal fictions.

    What Cameron’s cohorts make manifest is what has been going on all along. Despite reluctance, in the Scottish psyche it was eventually presumed, agreed, accepted that 1707 had brought about a Union, in which neither England nor Scotland had been extinguished. South of the border the effects of the psyche were different: in 1707 Edward I’s project had at last, at long last, been achieved. Scotland was no more, and England ruled Great Britain.

    I have known this for a long time. A long, long time. But – let me admit it – I am still stunned by it. And almost knocked out by just how brazenly apparent it has now become. It is almost embarrassing to see how evident it is, in manfestation after manifestation, day after day. The evidence is so compelling, yet it still knocks me between the eyes.

    Just as it was at the end of the 12th and the beginning of the 13th Century, it’s independence or bust for Scotland. I have no doubt at all that the outcome will be independence. But against all the odds, and in the teeth of the most ferocious – ‘ferocious’ as in ‘wild beast’ – opposition.

    Of course, every effort will be made to extingish the SNP. But it won’t work. The national movement – the movement that says Scotland is a real thing, which can’t be extinguished – will win through in the end.

    After 700 years, nothing changed. Wow!

  108. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Nice bit of typing, Wull!

    8=)

  109. Roll_On_2015 says:

    Brian Doonthetoon: at 9:48 pm

    “Nice bit of typing, Wull”

    Agreed… although it took a while to digest I found it one of the the best posts I have read for some time.

  110. patsy says:

    Wish I could write like that Wull.And it all makes sense.

  111. Chic McGregor says:

    “Here is the sovereignty where you are…”

  112. Graham Rae says:

    One thing strike me on reading this disgusting overripe tripe – the right wing English media takes its bombastic, melodramatic, and hyperbolic nature from America. ‘War on England.’ Beyond pathetic.

  113. Ghillie says:

    Aye well, they got what they wished for.

    And have lived to rue the day.

    Better than that, from 19th September alot of folk knew that watching Westminster was going to become intensely interesting if not downright entertaining!

  114. Iain More says:

    I just love Ken Farquharson having to suck on lemons.

  115. sensibledave says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon 7:28 pm

    … this is new! You have decided that England, uniquely, is made up of different regions and therefore England, uniquely, should have different Parliaments to decide each region’s policy? You wont mind Brian if I tell you it is none of your business? We in England will decide how we want to run England thank you – just like the Scots did.

    As an aside, implicit in your assumptions are that the Isles of Skye, Glasgow, Edinburgh, St Andrews, Wick and Inverness are, of course, all the same, think the same, have the same politics and need the same solutions – and do not need different representation? If I recall the results of the referendum correctly, Glasgow voted for Independence. Why not try that for starters.

    The theme that keeps appearing is that because the SNP can’t convince Scots that Independence is a good thing for the country – you want the English to do it for you. No Brian, England wants whatever the majority of Scots want. Remember, you just have to convert 2.6% of the electorate from No to Yes and you have done it. I suggest that is likely to be a more fruitful route.

  116. sensibledave says:

    @ Grouse Beater 9:16 pm

    You wrote “I am as convinced as I can be that ‘Sensible Dave – a contradiction in the same category as a right-wing think tank calling itself the Institute of Democracy – that Dave is Mr Topiary ‘Tache himself, Michael White.”

    Grousey, you are as deluded on this as you are on so many other issues. I am a nobody from nowhere that is interested in political debate. Try responding with cogent arguments that respond to the points raised rather than insulting me (as you usually do – but I don’t give a toss) and stop worrying about who I am. Given the recent furore over the killing of wild animals, I am surprised, as a “Grouse Beater” that you are allowed on here!

  117. wull says:

    Thanks to Brian Doonthetoon and Patsy for the (undeserved but appreciated) compliments, and apologies to all for typing errors in my previous post. Apologies also for one big howler near the end: wrong centuries!

    ‘Just as it was at the end of the 12th and the beginning of the 13th Century, it’s independence or bust for Scotland’ is wrong. It should be: ‘Just as it was at the end of the 13th and the beginning of the 14th Century, it’s independence or bust for Scotland.’

    Can’t remember what was happening in the 12th Century – not quite as old as that! – but maybe ‘it was ever thus’! Wouldn’t / shouldn’t be surprised …

  118. sensibledave says:

    Wull 9.15

    Errr I think you might be overreacting a smidge Wull.

    If I get you correctly, because the English want English representatives to vote on Fox hunting in England (just like the Scots do in Scotland) – that means we want to extinguish Scotland.

    I don’t think there is any point in trying to reason with you.

    Anyway, I’m off to bed now. Big day tomorrow. We are following the Scottish lead and are going to set about settling some ancient scores. Bloody Norwegians came over here raping and pillaging then them Italians in their fancy uniforms building straight roads all over countryside. Its about time we bombed them in retaliation and retribution. Good night.

  119. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Dave, I think the eyties were there a few centuries prior to the Vikings, but hey never mind, one version of history is as good as another…

  120. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi sensible(?)dave.

    You typed,

    “You have decided that England, uniquely, is made up of different regions and therefore England, uniquely, should have different Parliaments to decide each region’s policy? You wont mind Brian if I tell you it is none of your business? We in England will decide how we want to run England thank you – just like the Scots did.”

    So, what you’re typing is that there is no government in the entire Universe, that defines regions of the country, which it governs?

    I didn’t produce this graphic, which looks at England, regionally. ‘HM Treasury Major Infrastructure Tracking Unit’ produced it.

    https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/uploaded-pics-page-8/infra-1000.jpg

    So, what you’re typing is that the whole population of England are singing from the same hymn book, have the same aspirations and political beliefs, and that the people of the North-East, the East Midlands, the West Midlands and Yorkshire & Humber, are completely contented that London has approximately 10 times more spent on infrastructure than each of the named regions in the graphic?

    I guess you live in one of the more favourably treated regions…

    You don’t get what has happened in Scotland and, unfortunately, you don’t get the similar feeling of alienation from Westminster, that is growing in the regions of England.

  121. sensibledave says:

    @ Brian Doon the toon 12.56

    You wrote: So, what you’re typing is that the whole population of England are singing from the same hymn book, have the same aspirations and political beliefs, and that the people of the North-East, the East Midlands, the West Midlands and Yorkshire & Humber,

    No Brian. What I am saying is that of course there are regions in England and those regions have different needs and requirements – just like in Scotland, Wales and NI. We, in England, will take care of our “regions” without the need of any help from our Scottish brethren thanks.

    If you are so concerned about regional governments why aren’t you proposing them for Scotland?

  122. Grouse Beater says:

    Insensitivedave: What I am saying is …

    Anything that annoys.

  123. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    hi sensibledave.

    Scotland was regionalised from 1975 until 1996. Been there done that. Wasn’t actually offering any help, merely observing.

    “We, in England, will take care of our “regions” without the need of any help from our Scottish brethren thanks.”

    Mmmmm…
    London gets 24 times more (per head) spent on infrastructure, compared to the North East of England.

    “Our additional analysis of the 2013 government infrastructure plan, the IPPR’s data source, showed that the £14.5bn total capital expenditure planned for Crossrail outmatches the £1.6bn earmarked for rail projects in Yorkshire and the Humber, the north-east and the north-west by nine to one.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/07/london-gets-24-times-as-much-infrastructure-north-east-england

    England, or rather the UK Exchequer, to which Scotland contributes, is certainly looking after the London region!



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