Moving on
Exactly two years ago today (how time flies), we wrote this:
It doesn’t seem overly immodest to say that we pretty much nailed it. But if that was then and this is now, what of tomorrow?
A referendum in which Yes fell just 5.4% short of the winning post was never going to settle the constitutional question for a generation, no matter how frantically Unionists try to distort a few quotes to that effect. That’s just not how real-life politics works, and in any event the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 effectively define a political “generation” as seven years in a referendum context.
The bottom line is that you can’t stand in the way of a nation’s political will with semantics. But this year’s Brexit vote put a turbo-boost on something that was almost certainly going to happen within a decade anyway.
Having voted by a far bigger margin to stay in the EU than to stay in the UK, it’s simply not credible that Scotland could then be torn out of Europe without being given a final chance to choose which union it prefers. All that remains to be settled is when.
If the UK government had put a tenth as much preparation into its “Plan A” for a Leave vote as the Scottish Government did over independence (their respective paperwork was the 176,000-word White Paper versus a pitiful 1,523-word leaflet urging a Remain vote), Article 50 would have been triggered the day after the vote and the process would be well under way already.
But the reckless incompetence of Westminster has thrown a spanner in the works. Furiously stalling for time, the UK government doesn’t even plan to begin negotiations for months. And so ineptly, haphazardly and reluctantly is it dealing with a result that neither the previous nor current Prime Ministers wanted that nobody can say with any credible certainty when the process will end.
Nevertheless, one day it must. Article 50 imposes an iron time limit of two years on the subsequent talks, and Theresa May can’t fob off the angry Leave voters of England and Wales forever. Next year sees a tranche of English council elections in almost exclusively Tory areas (as well as the whole of Scotland), and it’d be a brave PM who went into those having STILL not triggered Article 50.
So if we assume it must happen by next May, that makes May 2019 the logical cut-off point for Brexit. It’s coincidentally also the date the next European election is due – an event which of course remains on the UK political calendar, precisely because we haven’t even begun the process of Brexit yet.
It would be farcical for the UK to still be an EU member at that point – because we’d still have to hold those elections if there was no clear exit date in place – but in the current UK political climate, something being farcical is no barrier to it happening.
Nevertheless, let’s take it as the closest thing that we’ve got to a rationally plausible outcome. It would make sense to hold a second indyref at the same time. It would massively reduce the costs and admin, and it’s infinitely preferable from everyone’s point of view – Scotland’s, the EU’s and the rUK’s – for Scotland to STAY in the EU rather than to be dragged out then try to JOIN at a later date.
(Honestly, it’s simply not possible to overstate how much that’s the case. For about a thousand mainly pretty obvious reasons the technicalities of the latter scenario, for all three entities, would by comparison be absolutely insanely complex and costly. It’d be a lot less trouble just to go to war with Russia.)
Given the language already coming from Europe, the EU would almost certainly be amenable to granting Scotland some sort of temporary bridging membership allowing it to continue without a break while the fine details were thrashed out. The Unionist myth of a Spanish veto would finally be torpedoed, because staying in would be a matter for qualified-majority voting. This time people would know exactly what they were voting on, rather than the No camp’s lies that Yes meant out and No meant in.
So, indyref 2 in May 2019? It makes as much sense as anything else. And make no mistake, for all of its “No Surrender, Er, We Mean No More Referendums” talk (and all of its incessant demands that the SNP simply give up its primary reason for existing and get on with everyday governance), the Unionist camp is in full preparation.
The Sunday Times yesterday carried a report of a recent fundraising dinner for the hardline nutter collective Scotland In Union, which by auctioning off hunting, shooting and fishing weekends and Swiss chalet holidays to an audience of wealthy elites – including the renowned republican socialist Baron Alistair Darling of Roulanish and the under-secretary of state for Scotland, Baron Andrew Dunlop – was said to have gathered a startling £300,000 for the shadowy loongroup.
(We fervently hope it uses the money to put on more speaking events featuring spectacular moon-howling fruitcakes like Tom Gallagher and Jill Stephenson, perhaps in a tour encompassing the whole of Scotland or a two-hour film or somesuch. Were their mad, inflammatory and poisonous rantings to ever be exposed to an audience with an average age below 65, a landslide victory for Yes would surely result.)
The story shows that the Yes camp will again struggle to compete financially with the massed might of the British establishment – it only managed to stay even vaguely in contention last time thanks to the generosity of a pair of lottery winners, despite the hilarious protestations of “Better Together” that they were the economic underdogs.
(In the end, No campaigners outspent Yes ones by over 150%.)
But where Yes undoubtedly has the advantage is people power. In 2014 Tory money was able to fund a Labour ground operation (even if much of it had to be bussed up from England), but Labour is now a tattered flag flying limply over a pile of broken rubble, and far too busy fighting itself to play much of a role in any second indyref.
And the Yes movement is already mobilising again in preparation for a new campaign, even without any political-party organisation or backing.
The reason both sides are gearing up for battle again is that regardless of their rhetoric it actually suits both of them to have a second vote sooner rather than later.
For the Yes side there’s the urgency of staying in Europe, the natural impatience of the recently-defeated and the fear of lost momentum. Plus by the spring of 2019 it’ll almost certainly be obvious that Scotland is looking at at least another six years of brutal Tory governments it didn’t elect, and the further away a social-democratic UK government looks the more attractive independence is to most Scottish voters.
But the No camp don’t really want to hang around either, because for all the perpetual avalanches of “peak SNP” articles in the newspapers, the reality is that they know the reverse is true – the 2016 election is in fact far more likely to have represented “peak Unionism”, at least for the forseeable future.
Labour’s support in Scotland is still in freefall, with the most recent polls showing it down by over a quarter even on its calamitous performance in the Holyrood election four months ago. And while a more or less unconcealed return to the old sectarian Loyalist outlook of its 1950s heyday has seen the Tories get a boost, that support has a ceiling only a little higher than the party’s current position.
Barring unforseeable extreme events like Nicola Sturgeon falling down a well or being seen on TV machine-gunning orphan babies, there’s no feasible scenario for anyone other than the SNP running Scotland for the next decade. Even a so-called “grand coalition” of Tories, Labour and Lib Dems would struggle to get enough votes together to elect a First Minister in 2021, particularly given the political difficulty of Labour MSPs voting for a Tory one, among many other likely problems.
(Under the Holyrood electoral system, tactical voting probably reached its practical limits in May with the small handful of FPTP seats plucked from the SNP tsunami by the likes of Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson, Daniel Johnson and Alex Cole-Hamilton.)
And what all three Unionist parties know is that broadly speaking, the longer the SNP are in control of the government of Scotland the closer independence gets. They’ve watched in uncomprehending horror as even a collapse in oil revenues to almost zero and an endless diet of TERRIFYING BLACK HOLE stories in the media hasn’t put a single dent in poll ratings for either the Nats or for independence.
They also know that those polls still show them in the lead, that things are only likely to get worse as Brexit unfolds, and that a second defeat in quick succession would knock independence on the head for a long time. (Apart from anything else, it’s hard to imagine what would be a bigger material change in the future than Brexit.)
So to cut a long story short, we’re putting our hard-won prediction record on the line: keep your diaries clear for the first half of 2019, folks.
I really hope it’s not as far away as 2019, but I can’t argue with your analysis.
If the UK Gov trigger Article 50 by Christmas which IDS suggested a week or so ago won’t we have left the EU by 2019?
Great dissection as usual Rev.
I was thinking along the lines of the latter half of 2018 if folks and events were really jollied along, but Spring of 2019 sounds just as good. 🙂
Salmonds thinking Autumn 2018.Eithers quite feasible.I note,Stu,you have predicted the date but not the outcome.
I am rather surprised by the number of people on our side who seem to think that advice given to us from the likes of the Sun and the Herald is given in good faith. The fact that they are urging caution tell us they know that at the moment we are likely to win a referendum.
Should I repeat that?
The sooner the better is the case. We will never ever again meet our opposition in such disarray. A few years from now the political position in the UK will have settled again, the people will have become resigned to the new economic and political situation they find themselves in and our great chance will have gone.
Yup, agree with pretty much all of that (always back a winner).
The only thing I would query is the point along the brexit timeline that Indy happens.
Why would Scotland wait until the end of the 2 year negotiation to leave the UK (stay in EU)? Surely that would just negate any agreed negotiations up until that point. Would they not have to go back to the drawing board and restart negotiations to let England / Wales NI leave with Scotland removed from the table (but given a seat another)?
It would make more sense, surely, to leave as near the start of negotiations as possible?
I wouldn’t want to see another referendum until postal voting was more tightly controlled. I am convinced that the unionists exploited it’s weaknesses to the full last time.
“If the UK Gov trigger Article 50 by Christmas”
They won’t. I’ll have 50 quid on it with you if you like.
You’ve changed your tune. Four and a half months ago you said that “independence is now categorically and unequivocally off the table for at least half a decade”.
“Why would Scotland wait until the end of the 2 year negotiation to leave the UK (stay in EU)?”
Because otherwise you’ve got a massive uncertainty – what Brexit will actually look like – slap bang in the middle of your arguments.
I understand the semantics of why May 2019 appears to be a good idea for indeyref2. I am however a bit concerned about the YES side being able to hold on to the current level of support for independence. My main concern is that I am seeing, and hearing, a lot of impatience beginning to surface about indyref2. I am deeply concerned that we could lose a lot of support if indyref2 is delayed too long. I know Nicola Sturgeon wants a sustained 60% before going for the ref and yes that possibly won’t be the case till May 2019. My fear is that after the disappointment of 2014 there is a head of steam gathering, as it has done since 19th September 2014, that can only be contained for so long before something blows.
As far as the Article 50 thingy is concerned and its two year limit I am interested in how they will achieve this. If memory serves me right it took Greenland three years to get out of the E.U. and they had a plan in place to start with. This crowd of heidless chickens have no plan in place and do not look like even getting close to having a plan in place for quite some considerable time to come. In my view if it took Greenland three years I do not think the bunch of numpties in WM will not be able to achieve their “out” within two years in fact I currently have grave doubts they will achieve anything within 10 years of starting Article 50.
Let our two nations govern themselves, finally proud to attain political maturity, mutual friends by signed and sealed pact of co-operation between genuine equals.
Good analysis as usual . But the politics of today is so volatile that an unpredictable
Brexit decision may force Teresa May’s hand into wanting an early Scottish indyref.
Which they think they can win.
Comments by Lord Darling confirm that they (BT2) think they could bring down Nicola Sturgeon
And halt the SNP dominance in Scotland.
Tory strategy to cut off the head and the body will die.
That is why the MSM are doing all they can to vilify Sturgeon .
Like Scott above, I would love it to be sooner (older relatives who I really want to see the day that the thing they have wanted all their lives actually happens).
That said, I understand politics doesn’t work like that and early 2019 is only a little further away in time than we are already removed from indyref1. So I could live with you being right, Rev Stu. I don’t think that would be too much patience for ScotGov to ask!
Everyone seems to be talking about the first half of next year for triggering Article 50, although I would think it’ll be before May, meaning the two-years would end before May 2019. I reckon the EU will want it wrapped up at least a few months before the next European election. Also, Nicola’s talked of the next referendum being held during those two years, rather than at the end. I’ve always assumed we would be looking to get things on our side sorted out before Brexit as well, although I suppose the chances of the UK being able to conduct negotiations with the EU AND the Scottish Government simultaneously seem a bit slim.
But then, who knows what else is going to happen in the EU? There are a whole load of national elections coming up, with things not looking good for many incumbent governments and presidents. Lots has happened since 2014 – lots more can happen before 2019!
I thought Alex Salmond’s guess of 2018 seemed about right, but we’ll see.
As long as it’s not 18th September 2018…
But what does the prophet John McTernan say?
(So we can, you know, count on the opposite of his views)
Your on a roll Rev. Take the WoS kitty down to Hills, and see what odds the nice people there will give you. 😉
It’ll still too long to wait for many, but after 300 odd years…
On the subject of whether they have a plan for Brexit, I recall there were claims that they had no plan if we voted Yes either.
I didn’t buy that then (much as I would like to believe they were total incompetents) and I don’t now.
Stu sort of says this too, but really they’re just stalling.
I understand the negotiations themselves will probably be very detailed and enter into excruciating minutiae. But I doubt that’s needed at this stage. Both sides only need a think about the principles they will take into negotiations for each area. That shouldn’t be taking months and months. So it’s pure stalling and time wasting, for wgatever purpose May has in mind.
Autumn 2018 allows a summer campaign. Better weather, more mass events. Winter is hard, The weather is bad, the nights are long. The Truth Ministry has more influence during the winter.
But the money’s the thing. Save up, Its coming one way or the other. Get fundraising.
The Rev sensibly points out that A50 is highly likely by May 2017 at the latest. I think it would be dangerous (from May’s perspective) to call it just before the elections. The Tories will not want to fight the council elections with issues like immigration being given fresh prominence, again.
So I think early 2017 as rumours suggest.
A50 plus two years is only significant if agreement has not been reached by then. My interpretation is that it is only a ‘leave date’ by default. Agreement could be reached before then, especially if it’s a simple-ish hard cut and run Brexit. I assume the actual leave event is part of the agreement.
Many experts say two years is too short for complex negotiations. Perhaps. I think WM’s primary objectives will be security for London’s financial sector (source of ~20% of UK tax) and something to control people movement.
Timing for Indyref2? I think the trigger must be – widespread acceptance that the UK will not be staying in the ESM, which is the SNP/SG red line. That point might come before the final deal is signed and sealed. It must become clear, long before two years, what WM’s objectives are.
The Rev’s timetable seems quite likely because WM really can’t keep stalling. I think the point where things might vary would be if it became very clear early on that WM are seeking something near the hard end of the spectrum. Then IndyRef2 could occur at any point which best suits the SG.
I hear alarm bells ringing about the EU holding pen status which awaits us. Can we double check, and check again, whether this is holding pen status for Scotland, a UK Region which may or may not be exiting the UK, or holding pen status for a sovereign Scottish nation which will definitely be staying in Europe once the process of disentangling itself from the UK has been substantially complete.
This might be pedantic, but I think this matters hugely. If our constitutional status remains recognised by international law as being governed by Westminster, then the EU cannot provide protected status for Scotland without being guilty of interfering in the internal politics of a sovereign nation (UK). The mandate for doing so is pretty shaky ground.
I fear the EU will only be able to help us if we first help ourselves, and secure our sovereign capacity to form a binding agreement between the sovereign governments of EU member states and the sovereign government of Scotland.
Hate to put a damper on an otherwise positive scenarios, but no independence, no holding pen status.
I don’t even think an imminent Indyref would go far enough. In fact, for the EU to reserve a place for Scotland in Europe pending the outcome of a referendum I fear could itself be deemed as an unfair incentive, and thus interference with the internal politics of a sovereign country.
It’s a bit like Article 50 in reverse. We can speculate, formulate, negotiate and talk all we want, but it isn’t going to a mean a damn thing until we are irreversibly committed to sovereign independence, and that means a positive YES referendum result or a UDI. Nothing less will suffice.
Prove me wrong, I hope you can, but remember 2014 when Europe couldn’t even be asked a direct question about Scottish membership with going through Westminster formal channels first.
2019 isn’t that long away, 2 1/2 years? Remember the last campaign started over two years before the vote. WE CANNOT ALLOW ANOTHER FAILURE! To do so would mean those 16/17 year old voters would be middle aged before the next vote!
Not that sure the English Local Elections will be of much concern to May – especially with Labour in permanent meltdown.
Indeed it makes sense for her to ask Brexiteers to wait until after the French and German elections later in the summer of 2017 in order to see how their results will impact on the potential EU brexit negotiation stance.
Still, I’m sure McTernan The Prophetless wishes he had written that 2 years ago!
I did some fairly indepth demographics analysis shortly after Indyref#1 and predicted (all things being equal and no major events along the way) that YES/NO would organically reach parity by 2021.
They are almost at parity now with over 4 years to go. And when the real meaning of Brexit becomes crystal clear, the YES lead will simply soar away.
Prediction: YES WIN 2019. And simply no doubt about it. That’s why the UKOKers are bricking it right now and would rather have IndyRef#2 sooner rather than later.
But we all still have a lot of work to do and a lot of that is about taking on the BBC, challenging its propaganda wherever we can and alerting everyone we know to what their game is.
Just to add to previous post.
Remember the talk before YES 2014 was a yes majority followed by 18 months of exit negotiations before a formal independence?
As I read it, that similar period of transition is where and when we might hope for holding pen status in Europe. No definite or confirmed transition, no transitional status granted.
I feel the campaign was far too long last time and folk just switched off for most of it. Another 30 months of it dominating the media could see the same thing happening. I said at the time that many would just not engage and go out on the 18th of September and vote No. A shorter campaign, say six months, might lessen voter fatigue and focus minds. I appreciate that the politics shows that only political junkies watch will continue to debate about another referendum but I’d rather not be putting Yes literature through doors 9-10 months in advance like the last time.
“You’ve changed your tune. Four and a half months ago you said that “independence is now categorically and unequivocally off the table for at least half a decade”.”
I don’t know if you keep up with the news, but there’s been a fairly big change in political circumstances since then. All predictions are subject to events, dear boy.
(Coupled with the fact that the Greens have subsequently rowed back on the policy position that made that the case.)
Please don’t lump all over 65s into the same anti independence group. I am 68 and have supported independence since the age of 18.
My Canadian born wife (66) also supports independence.
We value our EU citizenship, we have interests in continental Europe and are very internationalist in our outlook.
Scotland will find a way of paying our pensions and I strongly expect that social support, if required, will improve.
So there may be some old fogies who remember the war and being comrades in arms with the rest of the UK, but a large number of the baby boomers are better educated, better informed and better travelled than some give us credit for.
Older people are not the problem, fearful people are. The fearful need to be caressed and reassured, not made into a bogie-man.
Rev,
I think Yoon Tactical voting will reach its zenith in May 2017 at the Local Elections as Yoon Grand Coalitions form to protect the Union and their access to the trough.
Arbroath1320 @ 12:36pm
I understand your concerns regarding level of support being maintained and this is why the Media War must be fought hard, with the lies and omissions challenged daily and the cold hard evidence of Westminster cuts to Scotland following the trigger of Article 50 highlighted.
Breeks @ 12:48pm
With the EU holding pen and any other options I hope this is clarified pre IndyRef2 and post Article 50 trigger.
I would argue that as the Act of Union is a Bipartite Treaty between England and Scotland means that if England come out of EU this should allow for Scotland to be the successor state allowing it to remain in.
Post Article 50 when negotiations can officially commence SG should be pushing for very public assurances of this (and what membership benefits Scotland would retain) from EU (Officials and Member states) to allay public concerns.
This can also negate the “Spanish Veto” stories.
There are so many variables here:
Will the Tories hold together if May dithers far into 2017?
Will the English electorate meekly watch while their democratically expressed will is ignored?
How hard will the 27 EU block negotiate? Will they continue to present a united front? Will the EU even hold together long enough for Brexit to be negotiated?
What if Marie Le Pen becomes the next French president in April next year?! What if Merkel looses in the autumn?
Will the English electorate get cold feet and demand another referendum when the economy really starts to suffer? When will that happen?
How does the question of a hard border between N Ire and the Republic resolve itself? Does N Ire join the Republic or does it become an independent state in the EU in its own right?? What a nightmare!!
Is there a solution to the conundrum of how Scotland could be a member of both unions – UK and EU? When will we find out if that’s possible?
How much help and encouragement will the EU leaders give to Scotland during the Article 50 negotiations and wi?l that make a significant difference to Scottish public opinion?
How will the demographic changes occurring in Scotland over the coming years impact on opinion on independence?
That’s just some of the questions that swim around in my head these days! There are many more. There seems to me to be only one certainty and that is that the Westminster government have created one hell of a mess. They will need cunning and not a little luck to extracate themselves from it. History tells us they possess both in spades. We live in interesting times.
Breeks: “If our constitutional status remains recognised by international law as being governed by Westminster, then the EU cannot provide protected status for Scotland without being guilty of interfering in the internal politics of a sovereign nation (UK). The mandate for doing so is pretty shaky ground.”
“If, if, if.”
Do you ever check notions before you commit personal doubts to public scrutiny?
And ‘if’ you have caveats can you back them up by citing line and clause for your uncertainties, so readers can measure their validity?
Otherwise, you’ve only posted another six inches of personal opinion.
People don’t start petitions and hold fund raisers if they think something isn’t going to happen. The Yoons know Brexit has changed the game and that there is going to be another referendum.
I find some of the stuff coming from Fluffy Muddle absolutely laughable.
“Brexit is an opportunity, the Remain Project Fear stuff, which I supported, was just hyperbole. However, Scottish independence will result in earthquakes and everyone will get scabies”
One of the reasons I am looking forward to another referendum is because
1) The Tories have lost all their Labour lap dogs to do their running. They will have to front this up themselves
2) They will have a very unsympathetic EU looking over their shoulders
3) They can’t have their cake and eat it over Project Fear.
As far as the past goes, I would use the word Prescient for what the Rev said.
Given the total complete and total incompetence of the current WM government, I would say that predictions might be harder.
Yeah, another great and timely article.
What I like as well is that these are unifying articles, the Indy camp is split into different factions, and tha’s good because it means Indy Ref 2 can be a lot of different visions, rather than mostly the one plain vanilla one, but this weekend and the two Glasgow, well, 3 really, have shown that more co-ordination is needed, more working together, and puttind aside differences.
Well, not putting aside difference, rejoicing in them, because that’s what Indy is about, the whole wide open spectrum of views and possibilities.
@Iain Hamiliton 12.29 who said “It would make more sense, surely, to leave as near the start of negotiations as possible?”
Agree iain – After triggering Art 50 the negotiations will last a maximum of 2 years (unless prolonged by unanimous agreement of all EU states).
They could be over in 2 weeks if the UK just says “We’re out of here”
That means
1) the EU holds on to scotland and NI, which risk being lost to the UK in one way or another (independence for Scotland, links to the republic of ireland),
2)preventing the EU from having half a loaf (which is always better than no bread)
3) satisfying the extreme brexiteers in the Conservative party, UKIP and the general population
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/08/23/post-brexit-hard-or-soft-landing/
Another aspect to timing. We have right wing Tory government who will have a nasty agenda on more than just Brexit.
It’s had a some personality changes but is basically the same one for over a year. A bit of a rightward shift, but it’s all the same MPs. There actions have been not to Scotland’s tastes.
So far with May (Brexit aside) we have had grammar schools, and Scotland collectively yawned.
That won’t continue. This lot will do something which really really upsets a lot of Scots. It seems almost inevitable. I await May’s ‘poll tax moment’.
“Otherwise, you’ve only posted another six inches of personal opinion.”
Surely that’s what discussion forums are partly for?
Also, if you don’t know what someone opinion is, you can’t dispute what it’s founded on (or lack of foundation) and therefor can’t attempt to change it.
sorry correction to point 1 above- 1st word was deleted by my PC
1) preventing the EU holds on to scotland and NI, which risk being lost to the UK in one way or another (independence for Scotland, links to the republic of ireland),
I still like Thursday, 4th July 2019 as it will make it impossible for the USA NOT to support us.
mealer says:
19 September, 2016 at 12:23 pm
“….I note,Stu,you have predicted the date but not the outcome.”
You are usually good at answering direct questions, Stu, surely you didn’t treat this one as rhetorical? I would hope that your answer would be a YES majority but how big would that majority be?
HandandShrimp says:
“I am looking forward to another referendum is because … They will have a very unsympathetic EU looking over their shoulders”
Yes, I hope that will be the case. If we reach the point where the EU take on board that the ‘Scottish issue’ cannot be resolved within a UK wide Brexit deal, then Scotland’s separate path forward could be part of negotiations.
Same true for NI and Gibraltar.
Resolving these ‘problem areas’ would become no longer just an internal UK issue because the peoples involved are in the EU and don’t want to leave.
I have hope and faith that the EU will act positively towards us. All we need to do is collectively say YES when asked.
My feeling is that Eck’s timetable is the right one.
However, that being said there is little point in running REF2 before the yawning gaps in the voting system which allowed the forces of evil to rig REF1 are closed.
I am one of the many who believe REF1 was rigged and that the area where that happened was Postal Voting.
Although Postal Voting was where the old fixeroo was applied what facilitated that was the contents of The Electoral Roll.
We were told that 97% (if my memory is correct) of those entitled to vote had registered. Does anybody really believe that figure – it is a bit like the declared percentage votes in dictatorships.
What in fact happened in my opinion is that thousands of names were added to the register by said forces of evil to make it look as if 97% had registered which is completely different to 97% of those actually entitled to vote.
This sleight of hand allowed Postal Votes to be cast for NO and the PV Ballot Boxes to be stuffed.
For REF2 the following are essential:-
Tighten up on qualification for a Postal Vote
Include NI No. on Register and run cross checks to eliminate duplicate entries
Have external observers of the whole process from The EU or UN.
Keep Postal Votes separate and publish totals in each voting area compared with votes cast on the day.
Poll Cards to be shown at Polling Stations or no vote allowed.
Exit polls.
Tighten up the rules regarding Opinion Polls – the way they are being run currently they are not reflecting public opinion but are trying to influence it.
In 2014 there was much talk of the Battle of Bannockburn anniversary. Well, In 1319, there was the not so famous Scots War of Independence Battle of Myton, in Yorkshire, which was another crushing defeat for the English.
Doubtless, the Yoons will denounce this as another cunning plan by Alex Salmond!
Of course, if the 2nd Indyref is in 2018, that’s the 700th anniversary of the Scots recapturing Berwick castle.
Looks like its all kicking off, again!
If my memory serves me right I seem to recall there has been a fair bit of footage of Guy Verhofstadt (our man in Brussels 😛 ), or was it Donald Tusk, saying that they believe Maggie MkII will trigger Article 50 in January or February 2017.
There is one thing in this whole triggering of Article 50 that no one in the media appears to be paying too close attention to, at the moment at least. This is what Maggie’s backseat drivers are all thinking. I am of course referring to her Brexiteering M.P.’s who all want out of the E.U. She will only be able to hold them off for so long. She has managed to hold them off for three months so far but it will begin toget tougher for her to continue to do so without involving Article 50 … in my view. 😀
>Proud Cybernat
>Prediction: YES WIN 2019. And simply no doubt about it.
I dunno – I remember plenty of bullish predictions of the indyref result.
The timing of an indyref2 is an interesting topic, but secondary to the winability of an indyref2. I’ll be surprised if the results of Brexit negotiations will actually boost the Yes vote. The reason is this: bad trade deal with the EU means a bad trade deal with our biggest market – rUK. That could depress the Yes vote. A good trade deal with the EU means a less damaging Brexit. That might make swing voters think “why bother with the uncertainty for little benefit”. Catch 22 situation. Then there’s issue of fiscal transfers from rUK to Scotland. Hopefully the oil price will pick up and the economy will grow meaning less negative GERS results in 2018.
To the true believers who think we need to maintain momentum and strike while the iron is hot – the iron isn’t hot. See opinion polls for details.
I think we need to avoid 2018 at all costs. Just think of all the UKOK Britnattery jingoism we’ll get in that year over the end of WWI. Brits together wot won it pish.
Can someone give me a reasonable explanation why the people of Scotland can’t have an independence referendum in every parliament if they so wished.
Because I’m totally lost when I hear that we can only have a referendum on the visit of Halley’s Comet or when the Queen farts Scotland the Brave into a trumpet.
Please tell me.
“Because otherwise you’ve got a massive uncertainty – what Brexit will actually look like – slap bang in the middle of your arguments.”
This is the problem I’ve seen from reasonable posters in the Herald. On the one hand the Ref needs to be early enough to give a result and allow time for those Scotland – EU negotiations, on the other, it needs to be late enough so that much of the result of the UK Brexit negotiations is known.
But we do have MEPs such as Alyn Smith, Ireland has shown an interest, and there is no reason after the Ref is called but before it’s held, for a lot of questions to be asked of the EU, and a lot of indications given. Negotiations with the EU then after a YES vote could be very quick in the broad outline, with just smaller details to follow at leisure. Perhaps even a transitional stay in the EU while the real deal is firmed up.
Basically speaking, the EU can do whatever it wants, as long as it wants it.
I call autumn 2017, not May 2019.
Mike Cassidy at 12:53pm
Mike, the English council elections will be a litmus test of how the Conservatives are seen to be delivering Brexit, 11 months on from the vote to leave.
Any sign of capitulation on immigration or a ‘Soft Brexit’ will be used by UKIP and may seriously erode the Tories seats.
With Labour likely split or fighting their 2017 Leadership Contest (aka Chicken Coup II, McTiernans Revenge) UKIP could do very well.
May will want to minimise UKIP gains and hopefully her attemptd to pacify the English Right Wing and Neo Facist Vote will prompt more ‘Soft No Voters’ to come over to the Yes camp when they get a smell of what is blowing Scotland’s way on the wind!
I hope Robin McAlpine reads this and the Rev and he can have a live-streamed(are ye there ‘Thistle’?) debate, and we can also join in using the chat facility. Apologies as always to ‘Grammar-Nazis’.
I thought our entry into the EU as an independent nation could be blocked by any one of the 27? You mention majority vote. Have the rules changed?
The when matters not to me. I have always been in it for the generations to come.
Do not get me wrong, I hope to see it in my life time but a few years either way matters little in the grand scheme of things.
…what does matter is the result!
galamcennalath
Aye. A popular Yoon mantra is that Spain will veto Scotland.
At a recent Wee Ginger Dug event, Paul, who is a fluent Spanish speaker and follows Spanish politics noted that the Spanish foreign minister in a recent interview far from saying that they would veto Scotland in fact said that the UK would return to its 16th (or possibly 15th I forget which) century borders following Brexit.
Cuilean @ 1.34pm
2018 would most certainly be a year to avoid.
It will be the centenary of the end of WWII and the BBC et al will be in full ‘British/Britannia’ mode throughout the year.
Sunniva: I am pretty sure the idea is that Scotland would take the UK’s spot, and be the successor state. In that scenario, only a majority in agreement is needed.
An important factor I think will be currency again – but this time currency to our advantage.
Am pretty confident the £ and € will hit 1 for 1. I’ve heard many voice in the past “oh that’s less Euros for your pound” in a manner of “the pounds shite at the moment”. Also I think a push will be when people understand the € can’t be forced upon us. In a digging there own hole sort of way a better together style of anti-indyref2 coalition will say they words to defend a £/€ 1/1 stance.
you say,
`Article 50 imposes an iron time limit of two years on the subsequent talks`
Article 50/3 says,
`two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period`
http://tinyurl.com/d38urjr
just sayin the whole process could be extended without legal limit.
Wullie
Gus1940 says
And no party allowed to see postal votes at any time. Postal votes to be counted at the appropriate station on the night. No Tory fun companies in Scotland or England allowed near any voting materiel, like the last Indy ref.
All postal votes counted and recorded in Scotland under severe scrutiny. Enything anyone else can think of. I know of people who are holiday home owners in the area where I stay who were sent voting materiel, whether they used it or not I have no idea.
Breastplate says:
“Can someone give me a reasonable explanation why the people of Scotland can’t have an independence referendum in every parliament if they so wished.”
If it is in a Holyrood election manifesto, then that’s democracy. Especially if it has trigger conditions attached, and those transpire.
One per manifesto/election/parliament is inevitable whenever it is a central policy of the winning party!
All that can be said to those who don’t like it is … well, you win the election next time, if you can.
And they will, eventually, if we don’t vote Yes.
Robert Peffers.
I posted a comment on “Hit for Six” at 1:39pm on the 17th of September and was wondering if you felt it had any argument in constitutional law or am I barking up the wrong tree.
So It Goes
“the repeated refrain from Vonnegut’s classic Slaughterhouse-Five isn’t notable for its unique wording so much as for how much emotion—and dismissal of emotion—it packs into three simple, world-weary words that simultaneously accept and dismiss everything.”
Appreciate your efforts SC
This article is based largely on political factors, which are clearly very important, but what about the real world where the UK’s trading balance was £32.6 billion for the first three months of 2016. That’s about 7% of GDP. It’s been negative and getting worse since the 1980’s, and without North Sea oil would have been much worse in the ‘good’ 90’s.
http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/current-account-from-1987.png
UK governments can talk till their blue in the face about making the UK entrepreneurial or a global leader in free trade or whatever. The reality as shown by the UK trading account is that it has lagged comparable countries for decades and shows no sign of doing otherwise in the future. So more relentless economic decline, quite possibly at an even faster rate now.
So the longer we delay getting free of the negative impact of Westminster, the worse the economic situation for Scotland will become. I’m not saying that the political factors outweigh the economic ones, or vice versa. But I think both factors need to be given equal importance. Real life is more than just politics. And whereas politics is too often just hot air expediency, the trade figures are real.
2014 – Total votes 3,619,915. 2,001,926 NO, 1,617,989 YES. Margin 383,937. NOes need to change to YES: 191,969.
Sep 18th 2016 at 48% – for same total votes. 1,882,356 NO, 1,737,559 YES. Margin 144,797. Noes needed to change to YES: 72,399.
So in 730 days, 119,570 nett NOes have changed to YES, at a rate of 163 per day.
In 445 days at that rate, YES will be 1 or 2 more than NO. I make that December 7th 2018.
All we need is a steady 163 people per day on average to change from NO to YES – and stay there!
(welcome to check my maths, got a different result first try, must have been using Danny Alexander’s calculator)
Bit dispirited about some of the carping comments on here about yesterday’s event.
I hugely enjoyed it, made new contacts,acquired a vast amount of new material for distribution and enjoyed many of the contributions.
When a bunch of activist volunteers organise something the only appropriate response is “thank you”. If some of it doesn’t go as well as it might have the reaction is to say can I help or perhaps we could try something a little different .
Mild rant over.
Hi Rev,
Interesting stuff. With some speculation growing that it A50 could be triggered in Feb of next year due to French and German elections and fitting with those council elections I can see the trend growing.
The question is, do we wait to see what they do first and let them cock things up or do we start early and fight each point of taking Scotland out of the EU and what that would mean for Scotland against it’s will head on?
The lack of investment in the NHS after Brexit has already got people’s back up so Battle busses with big logo’s on them isn’t going to work this time. This fight is going to take all new media types and websites and messages to make sure that people are reached, from whatever background and keep them informed and ahead of any lies.
As someone who seems to spend his life campaigning these days, I beg for another September or October vote. May votes mean campaigning in the darkest, dreariest days of Jan, Feb, March. Many activists can’t turn out until after work….people don’t answer their doors… it snows on street stalls…it’s all bad…
So, Autumn 17 for me…
The two years is the limit if no agreement is reached but can be far shorter by agreement. It’s actually more to the benefit of the departing member than the EU as they could always unilaterally rip up any treaties. Of course it’s all going to depend on when the EU official acknowledges notification of A50 and just how generous they feel. It’s for this reason that the EU are refusing to negotiate before A50 as to do so might weaken their own position and at the same time provide a pretext for the UK to change its mind.
The circumstance where Scotland might not leave the UK before the UK leaves the EU would be where rather than being seen as an entirely new membership we were continuing the UK’s with an extreme modification in the territory. Both the rUK and Scotland would share the same “independence” day.
Mid way through pre-Brexit negotiations might complicate the issue of whether EU nationals would get a vote or not. Expect a major amount of griping from unionists if it looks like including them the next time would swing the result.
For all the talk about Brexit not having had a major financial impact it’s worth remembering that we’re still in the “phoney war” situation.
Also worth remembering that Osborne is no longer Chancelor.
December 7th 2017 – not December 7th 2018!
Get all that way and screw up at the most important bit 🙁
Makes sense to me, Rev.
I’ve an idea for indyref2. The only argument the unionists have left is that Scotland must remain under Westminster control because we need them to give us billions in charity each year. They claim to be desperate to give us this charity, so much so that they beg us not to leave because they wouldn’t be able to give us it any more.
Well, I have a solution to their problem: how about we leave but they continue to give us £15 billion a year in international aid? That way everyone’s happy. Scotland gets to govern itself the way it wants to be governed and England gets to keep subsidising us at the same levels that they insist they want to. Win-win, why would they refuse? Let’s ask them.
Better together 2018? No Thanks.
The problem for better together is the economy. During the last referendum, an age ago, the economy had begun to show signs of recovery, David Cameron could play the financial stability card with Britain in Europe, the so called pulling and sharing to get us over the low oil price, pensions and currency. The Conservative government could act like a competent government, but the fiasco of brexit has changed everything.
Today is another country, the strong possibility of the City of London no longer being the bread winner, as expulsion from the European financial passport, an expulsion heavily lobbied for by the German and French stock exchanges. even regardless of this grave risk the continuing debt spiral of both the Government and individuals are heading. Remember before oil the UK went bust in 1976, having to run to the IMF for emergency bailouts, then we found oil, money poured into the city, along with Thatcher’s opening up the markets. And what did the Westminster elite do with the money? Made themselves and their friends very rich. The division between the working poor and the owners has never been so unequal.
Today we are £1.7 trillion in debt, but that is not even half the story the real national debt is closer to £4.8 trillion, a figure that is doomed to increase unless the entire mechanism of Government finance is overhauled. So If governments and voters are so heavily indebted then why would you raise interest rates? And if you don’t raise interest rates then how do people save for their old age, or have any savings at all? was it not for compulsory pensions most would not invest in a private pension at all.
Investments and Pensions when the economy is bouncing along the bottom are a time bomb, with most canny investors moving funds to sheltered shores, and not just to tax havens to reduce tax liabilities, but to shelter from the storm Brexit threatens to bring. So the pound in your pocket, the reassuring British pound so beloved of UKIP and better together, is only a illusion, traded on the open market on a whim of a market readers view of its worthiness, and that view is increasingly being viewed with trepidation.
In any case, we already have Scottish currency, there is no barrier to continuing with Scottish bank issued notes being Scottish currency, the Scottish government setting up a national bank as lender of last resort.
The Bank of England, the old lady of Thread needle street would be divested of her gold and currency reserves in exchange for the Scottish Government agreeing on a reciprocal share of national debt. To the man in the street nothing would change, nothing would look different, you still will not be able to use Scottish notes in an English pub.
As Nicola Sturgeon put it, the country that the No voters wanted to remain in no longer exists, for all British titles in today’s TV programs, take a look at this for some reality check, no great British anything from the 1980s http://www.forums.doyouremember.co.uk/threads/6975-Scans-of-TV-Times-pages-1970s-80s/page5
Little England has spoken and little England will have her will, insular, nationalistic and fearful of Johnny foreigner under the bed , well Scotland deserves better that wed to that dystopian future, we not only deserve our will, our future, our democracy, we deserve our right to nationhood, to a separate Scottish state, at one with our European neighbours, Scottish citizens once again sharing a nationality with European citizens, not tied in a loveless marriage to England and the rump of an old empire.
The old shibboleths of the Better together are in tatters, lie to me once, can’t lie to me twice, Darling can’t be put in the Lords again, to be honest I would suggest even the most British of Lords couldn’t take another Moonie, so who to speak for the Union, Dugdale, don’t make me laugh, Davidson a woman so brazenly braggadocio in her arrogance she looks like a Duracell bunny on speed, wantonly mounting any beast and praying for burly chaps, whatever they are?
There is no competent face of the union, except Carmichael as an embodiment of the corruptions of Westminster politics.
Better together have played their best hand, and it won for them, but to try the same run again won’t work, and reversal of message is suicidal, too many promises not delivered, too many backhanders passed out, too much backslapping unionism , far too many truths uncovered.
Scotland could never be the same after the narrow win of the no campaign, Scotland is on the move, and Westminster can either like it or lump it due to in winning the last referendum, unbelievably they lost Scotland the jewel of their self proclaimed colonies.
I don’t know if you keep up with the news, but there’s been a fairly big change in political circumstances since then. All predictions are subject to events, dear boy.
“The failure of the SNP to secure another Holyrood majority last night (for the want of just 360 votes) combined with the Greens’ weasel-worded opposition to a second referendum – and make no mistake, opposition is what it is – will ensure that even if the rUK votes to leave the EU and Scotland votes overwhelmingly to stay in, there will be no indyref before the next Holyrood election in 2021.
“Whatever else happens, you can take that to the bank.”
I certainly hope no one actually did place a bet on the basis of this rather unambiguously worded prognosis!
An excellent and thoughtful article, Rev, but in a way I hope you’re wrong about 2019 because birds fall off perches and all that.
“I would argue that as the Act of Union is a Bipartite Treaty between England and Scotland means that if England come out of EU this should allow for Scotland to be the successor state allowing it to remain in.”
Jockanese WT, I would like to believe this myself and it has an appealing simplicity to it. I’m sure someone with a knowledge of constitutional law will be able to tell us it’s not a goer, though, for reasons which are not immediately obvious.
Do you think it’s even possible that the EU is unaware of the true nature of the Union of 1707? Or maybe they believe Fluffy Mundell’s loopy interpretation. If so, the FM should get them telt.
More from Alec Salmond …
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9376/exclusive-alex-salmond-says-westminster-will-have-no-alternative-allow-second-indyref
He believes the UK will not opt to remain in the ESM and therefore IndyRef2 is almost inevitable.
@Dave McEwan Hill
I don’t think anybody has “carped” about the event itself, or those taking part, what I think we want is to make *constructive* criticisms to make the next one even BETTER.
It needs more marketing, and intra-YES co-ordination and co-operation. I’d say rank and file don’t really care about personality differences, just about Independence.
@ Sunniva – I believe the vote on Scotland remaining in the EU would be by “Qualified Majority” which they adopted in November 2014. Details here:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/
I may have to defer to David “Tank Top” Torrance’s acute political insight & deep intimate knowledge of Alex Salmond’s mind before I make a commitment again to the cause of Scottish independence.
I can always rely on Torrance’s gifted London centric mindset & sophisticated choice of comforting upper torso, sleeveless knitwear to guide me through these turbulent times.
Thank goodness The Times & The Herald also recognise the worth of having this Littlewoods catalogue model frequently available at short notice just to remind a hesitant electorate the vileness of the SNP’s pro independence dogma.
Thanks Galamcennalath, I don’t see it as unreasonable to have a referendum every parliament either if that’s what we voted for.
If it annoys the Yoons, that’ll be a bonus.
Following that fairly rational logic and with a Yes vote second time around, we should be independent around November 2020 – approx. 4 years from now. Sounds good to me.
If you are right Rev, then we don’t have time to wait for the indy generations to become the natural majority – we need to get out there and convert pensioners!
If the Greens get in the way when an effort is made to call indyref2, they are toast.
For that reason, as well as the fact that a good many of their new members are Yessers, I don’t think they will.
Unionists have been fighting the referendum since the day after they won it last time and the squealing just gets louder with any excuse to avoid the very thing they say they’ll win anyway
The tantrums will only increase like a kid in the supermarket as time goes on because that kid knows they’re not getting the sweeties this time so they’ve nothing to lose by screaming louder
After the Brexit terms are known it’ll be interesting to see the diminishing platforms for the Yoons left to defend
Patriotism Economy Currency and Ruth Davidsons particular favourite Sectarianism
I have a strong feeling the first three will be dealt with very strongly this time leaving Ruth to just squeal No Surrender….please
Lots of good comments today in here, and generally positive, imo.
Despite obvious shortcomings re the weekend events and the perennial problems of egos obstructing overall cohesion, no-one can say we’re not trying – very very hard – to keep our peckers up and keep ‘doing’ stuff.
What do the BTUKOKers have? Nowt but wobbly voices saying ‘Everyone’s fed-up with it.’
Aye, mibbes so, but there’s no way anyone’s as fed-up with the debates as the majority of us are of WM rule and the red/blue Tories’ insistence on making us buckle to it.
John Bull’s got his arse oot the windae with a very unfashionable hat on it.
(Caz-m – where are you? *Will ye no come back again…*)
3 years is harsh. Long long time to wait.
Craig P says:
2:35 pm
– we need to get out there and convert pensioners!
Remind them of the speech given by Winston Churchill in 1946
“we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can”
Another interesting factor in this, is about the EU Parliament and Martin Schulz.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-priorities-2020/news/under-martin-schulz-the-parliament-has-become-the-29th-member-state/
@Capella
Qualified majority is apparently the way 80% of EU legislation is decided, but I would think actual membership – or leaving of membership – is a primary function, and would be decided by unanimity. That’s not to say persuasion and pressure can’t be brought on any member state that tries to hold out against the rest.
Just a wee side issue here.
I see the Greens have started a wee thingy called No2Yes. I understand it is aimed at all those NO voters from 2014 who are now voting YES next time round. I have one major problem with this title however … I wonder if anyone else has the same problem? 😉
I feel sure that the actuaries will be able to calculate the numbers of elderly No voters who will have shuffled off this mortal coil by May 2019; I’m in that group, and I voted YES.
After Brexit there will be no freedom of movement or employment, or trade.
EU nationals working here will be given an extended leave to stay, but ultimately will be turfed out of rUK.
Ex-Pat silver swallows will be turfed out of France, Italy, Spain, and Nigel Farage will need to find houses and hospitals for the 1.2 million Revenants.
RUK citizens wishing to work in Europe will be vetted (suitable qualifications, expected to be offered work that no locals can do)and require Visas, for work, for holidays, and pay through the nose for this.
EU tariffs of 8% will be slapped on to everything from wine to wieners, and there will be no more Chunnel expeditions to the Duty Free warehouses in Calais.
It will be wisely strategic to stand back and watch May’s Brivorce Team humbled, and try to push the nightmare that is Brexit through WM, which, despite the querulous, mumbling, sometimes hysterical Mundell on Brewer’s Droop yesterday, will have sovereignty and ultimate approval over the crossed t’s and dotted i’s of the myriad of pieces of legislation emanating from the Brivorce talks.
England is in an almighty mess. Corbyn’s coronation, the concomitant massive schism within the Labour Party, and the November mini budget this year alone will shift public opinion Up Here towards Self Determination.
I’d imagine that sometime early in the Brivorce proceedings, Scotland and N Ireland will withdraw support, since it looks like 6 month old New Zealand lamb is the only dish on the Brexit menu.
At that tipping point, Self Determination will be the only game in town.
I reckon October 2017.
Arbroath1320:
It could be read as shorthand for ‘say No to Yes’!
osakisushi says:
19 September, 2016 at 1:31 pm
I still like Thursday, 4th July 2019 as it will make it impossible for the USA NOT to support us.
Brilliant idea! It’s my birthday and I’m one of those ‘older’ voters. I’ll be 73 that day and have been a member of the SNP for almost 50 years. I’ll spend time between now and then talking to other ‘oldies’ who might opt for the status quo. I always feel that they’ll accept info from a peer, as opposed to a young ‘whippersnapper’.
Tinto Cheil @ 2:19pm
Yes I agree, If many Scots are unaware of the intricacies of the Treaty of Union (I’ve certainly learnt more in the last couple of years on here than I had previously), and the Yoons are either unaware or more likely are aware and chose to ignore it is a partnership I very much doubt that EU Politicians are aware.
How often are Scottish Politicians who actually care about Scotland and it’s people represented on committee in Europe?
I Posted this on a previous thread and was hoping Mr Peffers could give me the benefit of his wisdom.
Basically even if Treaty of Union doesn’t allow us to be the Successor Nation for EU Membership I think this might be a goer.
What about a new Act of the Scottish Parliament which recognises the EU Referendum result in Scotland of 62% for remain as being binding and as a result Scotland will not exit the EU when rUK does.
Not 100% on the Legality but my thoughts are:
1. Scottish People are Sovereign
2. EU Referendum was not advisory
2. Westminster cannot overrule any Act passed by the Scottish Parliament
4. Pretty much all Parties of all colours at Holyrood would have to support such a Bill through Scottish Parliament (BLis, Fib Dem have publicly stated they want to stay in both Unions, Green and SNP are both for EU Membership)
Surely if this was raised and passed by SG then UK Gov could not forcibly remove Scotland from EU without UN etc getting involved?
It would also be interesting to see which way the “Ruth Davidson, No Surrender to IndyRef2” Party would vote.
Some people are saying, “But what if we lose? The polls are on a knife-edge and if we go too soon and lost then we really will be looking at 20 years before we get another chance.”
Frankly, if Scotland allows herself to be dragged out of Europe with the UK, whether or not that is preceded by a failed independence referendum, we’re looking at a very long spell in a very nasty wilderness.
There is no comforting prospect of indyref 2 in 2021 or soon after that, after Brexit. That was always the thinking of the pre-Brexitvote plan. If there had been a Remain victory in June, that would have been a sensible timescale.
Not any longer. We either grab the chance to get out of the UK while we can still remain in the EU, or we let it slide and accept that defeat without a fight. Which is it going to be?
Not only that, given the rhetoric that has been flying around for the past three months, Nicola Sturgeon is going to look mighty silly if she ducks another referendum. Talk about marching your troops half-way up the hill then marching them down again? Not going to happen unless some magic ooffle-dust formula to let Scotland stay in both the UK and the EU is conjured up, and that’s not going to happen.
Get ready for autumn 2018 or spring 2019.
O/T
Just heard UK participated in air strikes which hit Syrian Government Forces in Deir ez-Zor on Saturday.
62 Syrian Government were killed and the ISIS forces in the area then took the positions and captured weapons and equipment.
Johnny says:
19 September, 2016 at 2:57 pm
Arbroath1320:
It could be read as shorthand for ‘say No to Yes’!
That is exactly my concern Johnny.
I don’t think whoever thought this title up gave enough thought to the possible alternatives that could result from this title. I think they need to scrap this one and get another more suitable incorruptible one instead.
The key to indyref2 is unfortunately to put pressure on the softer no’s to actually think what has changed.
I say “unfortunately” because, unlike 2014, I think this will involve 16-24’s putting pressure on grandparents about ruining their future if they vote no.
The 16-24 age group have grown up in a Europe which was almost entirely open to them so I see a lot more intergenerational strife likely in indyref2.
I have a good degree of sympathy with those who want indy but dislike the EU – there isn’t a lot to like at the moment, from Hungarian fascists, Polish god-botherers to Austria (yet again – they’ve had 3, 4 already?) trying to elect a Nazi as their leader. Quite apart from that there’s the utterly crappy way Greece is being treated.
However compare that to remaining in a union with England – a country which has had combat soldiers active (not just deployed) in other countries since 1914!
Yes there might be a load of right-wing nutters around in Europe & the EU is dominated by France/Germany but at least they don’t drag us into lunatic wars & supply arms to war criminals.
Politics is all about holding your nose because you’re never going to find a perfect solution. 90% “sovereignty” in the European Union trumps 0% “sovereignty” in the English Union.
Yes that about sums it up Rev indyref2 its coming nothing can stop it now,they had their chance to save the union and failed miserably and now show themselves to be incapable of redefining a relationship with Scotland.
The hard line yoons will have a very hard job persuading the devomax folks that more devomax is on offer since how can you have more than max though they are desperate enough to try it again lol
I will go with 2019 sounds about roght,i like that Eck has been out shaking the yoon tree though hilarious 🙂
Craig P says:
19 September, 2016 at 2:35 pm
If you are right Rev, then we don’t have time to wait for the indy generations to become the natural majority – we need to get out there and convert pensioners!
Absolutely. We don’t need em all, but we do need quite a few more pensioners than we got last time. Contrary to widespread belief, many were soft NOs. Some liked the idea of independence, but voted NO because they were told they would loose their bus pass (or even worse). Pensioners are hard work. They also read newspapers and watch the BBC. 🙁 They tend to be set in their ways and they need to be worked on gradually – don’t expect sudden conversions but keep sowing away with those little Indy seeds. No easy pickings among this group but they will turn out to vote in droves and so we have to win over at least a few of them. I hope that a specific strategy for pensioners is developed for the next campaign.
One criticism of the first campaign has to be the YES Newspapers. These were far too broad and certainly unstuited for the better off areas (where the vote was lost, effectively). We will need a YES 2 Newspaper, especially for the pensioners who generally do not engage with social media. However, I hope any Yes 2 Newspapers are a bit more clever this time and actually target the right groups/areas. Different papers for different target groups would be the best way. I remember delivering what was effectively a socialist pamphlet to posh areas in Aberdeen, thinking “These won’t go down well in this street!”. We have to be more clever next time.
We need a democratic response to their The Vow shyste for starters, let alone having our EU citizenship ripped up in front of us. SNP’s 56 MP’s is a pretty clear Scottish response right enough but we’re still a region run by shits, that rage we’re bankrupt and from all tory BBC led media. Not much of a sales pitch.
UK media wise, SNP simply do not exist now. BBC now incompletely blackout anything SNP, which is just as creepy as tories standing on our street corners demanding no more referendum’s for you Scottish types.
Who knows, maybe even NOT Scots oil prices might be back up to normal too. But then it’ll be UK oil again, like whisky, as last week BBC news explained to us the massive export success that is UK whisky.
Shits, one and all. Or, never interrupt an enemy making mistakes.
@Ian Brotherhood
The level of engagement and communication has been outstanding over the two year period and since June especially.
Just people. Ordinary people from every walk of life, every party and no party who happen to care and they have the assembled establishment, their political machinery and their meeja mooth pieces deeply worried.
In the face of everything that’s been chucked at them over that period, the sheer mountain of shite written about them, the boneheaded strategies devised to split or divide them, they are still here. In spite of the attempts by the unionists to re-write history, their attempts to smother any hint that it is they who drove a bus through their own pledges and assurances pledges, its been folk like those in Glasgow over the weekend who’ve hounded and questioned and demanded those pledges be honoured in everyone’s name.
Couldn’t be more proud of those who make that effort.
Said it in last thread that I consider what these folk have achieved to date as dusting off the machine and oiling the parts that need it. When this gets official, those ******* who sold the electorate that crap bill of goods in 2014 are in for a bad day at work.
@ Yesindyre2 – you’re right about unanimity being the most likely type of vote for membership issues. Depends, I suppose, on whether Scotland is actually changing membership status?
@ Jockanese Wind Talker 3.06 pm- outrageous if true. Surely that would be a war crime.
Moonlight @ 1:07
With you on your comment.
‘Are we looking at spring of 2019 for #indyref2?’
Yes.
We have to learn from past mistakes. A referendum will never be won in autumn/September. It needs to be May or June to stand any chance of a win
@ Capella @ Jockanese :
My understanding is a strike was called in from the ground, the US gave the co-ordinates to the aircraft who carried out the strike.
What surprised me – and I suspect this is the only reason we are hearing about it – is that two Australian aircraft were involved.
Most Australians (I know a few via a game called Eve) are like “wtf are we doing in the middle east?”….
@Arbroath1320 (2.52) –
re ‘NO2YES’
What genius thought that one up?
If you have to spend time ‘explaining’ a slogan then it’s as well going in the bin.
It might be effective as part of a Chuckle Brothers joke, but as a political ‘slogan’ it’s sloppy pish.
One_Scot at 3.34
Why?
“The Sunday Times yesterday carried a report of a recent fundraising dinner for the hardline nutter collective Scotland In Union, which by auctioning off hunting, shooting and fishing weekends”
On the BBC’s SNP blackout, you can still use the ultra powerful google search to find the SNP, buried away, but dragged out as the horrid baddie when planet toryboy needs one.
The shits want to fox hunting made legal again.
http://archive.is/Yu15K
A question, if Scotland was still jollying along happily being the underdog, and no independence referendum was on the cards, would Art50 have been signed by now?
The UKok gov are stalling, terrified that they could lose Scotland in the process of brexit so they will be planning, plotting and scheming as we speak.
Also once Art50 is signed could it be that they do hurry things along depending on how things are looking re Scotland’s plans for another independence referendum. Probably pointing out the obvious, as my son says I am so inclined to do.
Would put nothing, absolutely nothing, past UKOK gov and their pals elsewhere around the globe btw.
No offence to bonny Scotland re being the underdog, that sounded bad, slaps back of hand.
O/T
@ Vestas @ Jochanese- just checked with RT – and they have to detail here:
http://on.rt.com/7po0
BBC r4 Westminster hour thing last night is just the usual party policital broadcast on behalf of planet toryboy, not quite as bad as say BBC r4 lunchtime news at 1 today, Martha Whatsherface making love to a beautiful torboy, but last night they mentioned that UKOK Sec’s of State like Fluffie are for the chop, the thing, not the toryboy.
Magnus Gardham ?@M_Gardham Sep 17
‘No certainty’ an independent Scotland could join EU, @DavidMundellDCT tells IPPR
Magnus Gardham ?@M_Gardham Sep 17
…and if so, ‘an independent Scotland’s membership as new joiner would not be attractive prospect’
Oh and in terms of timing – that’s up to May.
When she triggers A50 then I’d say its a maximum of 20 months until indyref2.
I’m sure there will be lots of shenanigans in the last few months about soft/hard/full brexit but we need a yes/no for independence before then.
I think there does have to be an indyref2 before brexit is finalised.
It’ll be impossible to win indyref2 if Scotland is already outside the EU. I don’t mean for a few years, I mean for decades. The possibility of not being in the EU swayed a lot of soft no’s in indyref1, who knows what they think now…
Ian Brotherhood says:
19 September, 2016 at 3:41 pm
@Arbroath1320 (2.52) –
re ‘NO2YES’
What genius thought that one up?
If you have to spend time ‘explaining’ a slogan then it’s as well going in the bin.
It might be effective as part of a Chuckle Brothers joke, but as a political ‘slogan’ it’s sloppy pish.
I have no idea Ian but I think they were pished at the time. That is the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for this title. 😉
I have just seen a comment on Twitter from someone suggesting they make a small change to the name … “From No 2 Yes.” It is a very simple change but very effective and it says, without any mystery, exactly what the group is all about! 🙂
‘Why’
low levels of vitamin D.
@ Capella :
Yeah that’s the same one. The Aussies broke the news first :
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-18/australian-jets-involved-in-botched-air-strike-on-syrian-army/7855610
I suspect that’s the only reason the media initially picked up on it & subsequent re-reports..
Mmm, after a plea from AG on the Herald (the one with second letter of surname “o”) for St Andrew Day, I checked and the Ipsos Mori fieldwork was completed on 11th September, so that’s the required 7 days – and the nett rate of change from NO to YES is over 164 not 165, so, voila, date of YES majority is (drum roll):
30th November 2017.
@Dr Jim
Indeed, and it’s always a good idea to give a little gentle prod with some useful factoid to encourage such hysteria.
@Arbroath1320
On the other hand No2yes might make more NO voters check it out to see what it has to say against YES, then they start to get reading the good stuff. No idea if that was the intention, but the Greens can be quite smart.
Artyhetty says:
“The UKok gov are stalling, terrified that they could lose Scotland in the process of brexit”
They are being pulled 3 ways.
Many Tories are Remain and just as horrified as the rest of us. Never mind movement of people, they are thinking about the world dominant position of London as a financial centre!
Many Tories are closet UKIP. Nasty xenophobic ethnic nationalists. They want to return to some mythical imperial past and Leave.
And then we have Scotland and the integrity of their Greater England. The question around your suggestion has to be – how much do they care about keeping their Union? I think, quite a lot. What hurts them most, I believe, is the potential to lose face and feel diminished in the world stage.
All three pull separately in WM’s decision making. They say Scotland won’t have any great say, it is a UK issue. However they know if they get it wrong, the UK Is history.
Circles which can’t be squared. WM has got itself into a situation where they going to have to give up quite a lot, one way or another,
And let yon Yoons be under no illusion – when IndyRef#2 is kicked off (and it WILL be), if you CHEAT again, breaking purdah and making all sorts of false promises/vows then you can bet your last poond that IndyRef#3 will be along toot sweet.
And guess what, there will be an IndyRef until you gits can get it through to your thick skulls that ONLY a referendum result obtained by fair and honest means will ever be accepted by those who support Scotland regaining its independence.
Are we making ourselves clear?
And the reverse don’t work the same way. #Yes2No means the same whichever way you read it, so the “trap” isn’t there.
Just one more advantage of having had YES for us, the insidious counter-propaganda against the establishment. Every time an advert says “YES to better deals”, “YES to a loan”, “YES to great products”, “the bank that likes to say YES”, there’s the word “YES” in your face. Unionists must be purple with rage. Shame, I really do feel sorry for them.
Onyways, time to get to work, been footering with this damn Indy for 4 hours solid now (enjoying every minute of it).
Brotherhood: “‘NO2YES’ – What genius thought that one up?”
Conscription: ‘Back2Front’
Sky diving: ‘Sky2Earth’
Traffic lights: ‘Stop2Go’
Duvet spread: ‘Up2Down’
Westminster: ‘Good2Bad’
I’ll get my coat…
So as Fluffie says his Scotland region is too shite to either stay, or be allowed in the EU, the tories are in for an interesting Art 50 time.
FT wont let archive.is do its clever thing.
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/anti-immigration-slovak-pm-says-will-veto-brexit-deal-stops-free-movement/
Told by a man in a pub last night that the Rev’ Ian Paisley’s son has applied for an Irish passport, hope it’s true! 🙂
Brexit … as seen through the eyes of the Irish. 😉
Gawd I love the Irish … they call a spade a spade and don’t hold back in the process. 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsFrl9z7ROg
I absolutely don’t like this “No2Yes” thing. I can only see the the other side adding the word “say” to the front of it to create a slogan that really suits their own agenda. Whoever came up with it didn’t think it through!
RE: UDI
How about UDI at the same time as article 50 is triggered, giving 2 years to negotiate rUK’s departure from Scotland.
This would be constitutionally messy and of course UK gov would claim declaration is illegitimate, but the whole things a mess anyway. The disconnect between Westminister gov and Scotland would never be greater than at this time. Not sure UDI would be a realistic option at any other point.
Im sure the rash of recent defections from ukip to the tories – with more expected – wont have gone unnoticed by people in scotland. Nor im sure will the sharp turn to the right May indicated with a return to grammar schools in england. Nor boundary changes which make these same hard right tories a shoe-in for 2020. Chuck in brexit against scotland’s will and most people in scotland are likely to conclude the sooner they are free of this right wing madhouse the better.
Regret to say the welsh to all intents and purposes signed their own death warrant on june 23rd
@ galamcennalath
I’m not sure where you live, but I live in Leicester & I can assure you that lots of people who voted UKIP/Leave aren’t racists. Its unfortunate that they have no other option in most wards/constituencies to register a protest vote.
I don’t vote in England now, been here since 1989, wife/kids are English. Labour don’t even bother to put a candidate up in this area & haven’t done since Blair was in power.
Last time there was a UK election we had the choice of :
1) Tory
2) UKIP
3) BNP (I kid you not)
4) LibDems (aye right)
5) Independent candidate(somewhat right of the BNP IIRC)
This is in an area where I’d estimate the average household income at £40k.
Likewise in Leicester City (average household income £16k or so) the Labour candidate could get elected with a landslide even after close associations with an ex-MP now widely considered by many to have been a child rapist.
That MPs constituents (mainly Hindu Asian second generation immigrants) voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU.
So its best not to assume that Leave = Racist. For many Leave = FFS we can’t take anymore change.
Many of you aren’t in areas subject to large influxes of migrants so judging the reactions of those who are is somewhat arrogant IMHO. What do you do when your local schools turn to shit due to large number of kids who can’t speak English being enrolled? Best of luck getting more funding for help for those kids because that’ll be 2-3 years down the line at least. In the meantime your kids are regularly being “taught” by a PE teacher. That happened to us across subjects from maths to art!
People in the East Midlands/Anglia/North East of England voted Leave for the simple reason that nobody gave/gives a shit about them.
Racism no doubt plays a part, but when you have people of Asian extraction voting to keep out (mainly) racist eastern europeans?
Only England can fix England.
@ Vestas says and @ Capella.
Quite worrying as UK is a non invited participant in the eyes of the Legitimate Syrian Government (regardless of your view of Assad).
Imagine the Geo-Political fall-out if there were embedded Russian, Iranian or Chinese ‘military advisors’ with the Syrian Unit targeted.
Doesn’t bear thinking about and from what I’ve seen so far of UK Sec State for Defence Fallon he thinks he’s cutting about in a feather tri-corn hat in the 19th Century running Her Grand Britannic Majesties Imperial Armed Forces.
OT
There goes another Herald story and Tory complaint – about Joanna Cherry who turns out to be Lesbian herslf:
(about Joanna Cherry describing a rap as hilarious):
“Tories call for SNP MP apology in Ruth Davidson rap song row”
The Tories really are just totally incompetent, not fit for purpose. Like the BBC.
Scottish Labour voted to abandon Trident earlier this year, then had their policy opposed by their union pay-masters. Assuming getting rid of Trident is still important to a reasonable number of what’s left of Left-wing SLAB, this must represent an opportunity for SNP to improve current second ind. opinion poll.
SNP could promise to agree to vote for public purse to finance political parties so making Scottish Labour free of blatant interference. At the same time such a policy should be attractive to an ambitious (left-wing) SNP.
@ Jockanese :
I rather suspect that this Syrian crap will be going on until February 1997 when the latest hideous leader of the USA announces a “ceasefire”.
Re the Tory complaint about Joanna Cherry yesindyref2.
I assume the Herald and Tories have forgotten about this little gem then. 😉
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/07/13/scottish-tory-leader-ruth-davidson-destroys-all-of-politics-in-hilarious-speech/
Specifically this wee gem in a nutshell:
I said, that is great Craig but are you absolutely sure you want two short-haired, flat shoes, shovel-faced lesbians with a northern accent?
Just another wee video here … Brexit explained in simple down to earth style. Pity no one in U.K. had the balls to explain Brexit like this BEFORE the referendum vote! 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2YkbO2IaWY
That’d be 2017 😀
Another very important ingredient in the indyref2-before-2020 pie: the chief Brexit negotiator wants the UK to be out of the EU before 2019, for the exact reasons Rev points out:
https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/775633623563243520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
This is why I think Alex Salmond’s 2018 suggestion rang true, though I do think your own 2019 suggestion’s also as good as any.
While I think there’s a certain cyclical resonance for that date, I think it should be in the spring or summer. A nice, bright, sunny day will get more folk out to vote, and make them more optimistic & hopeful than a dreichit September. Late summer would allow a spring/early summer campaign, much more desireable than campaigning through winter. Plus, there’s nothing on in 2018 to clash with any elections.
I’m one of those nutters who’d be happy with just about any date for indyref2, but it all hinges on Article 50. I’m actually mightily tempted to take Rev up on that offer of “No Article 50 before Christmas,” simply because of how ridiculous politics has been in the past few months.
Vestas says:
“So its best not to assume that Leave = Racist.”
Why would anyone equate that? Or, think anything like that?
When I stood outside the polling station with a Remain badge on, also ‘on duty’ was another SNP member with a Leave badge.
However most ardent among Leave were UKIP. If the campaigns they ran and the rhetoric of some of their members are anything to go by, then I conclude xenophobia is endemic in their ranks.
Arbroath1320 says:
19 September, 2016 at 12:36 pm
…I am deeply concerned that we could lose a lot of support if indyref2 is delayed too long. I know Nicola Sturgeon wants a sustained 60% before going for the ref and yes that possibly won’t be the case till May 2019.
————
She has never said that.
There was a BBC report about unnamed SNP strategists suggesting something like that, in the run up to the Holyrood elections – as part of a tactic to gain votes from No voters.
But spreading this myth that Nicola says 60% is needed is self-defeating. We will never see 60% because so many questions will remain unanswered until post-independence negotiations.
The UK government isn’t going to make things easy for us.
The best way to look at it is independence support increasing 10-15 points during the last campaign, and anything over 45% in the polls is a fantastic starting point compared to last time.
@ Arbroath1320
Aye that true LA watching that reminded me of seeing this Irish lassie go to town on brexit and the Brits make jokes about them being stupid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2YkbO2IaWY
Elizabeth says:
19 September, 2016 at 4:28 pm
I absolutely don’t like this “No2Yes” thing. I can only see the the other side adding the word “say” to the front of it to create a slogan that really suits their own agenda. Whoever came up with it didn’t think it through!
I’m glad somebody brought this up I never liked this slogan either it’s saying to me “say No to Yes” a simple “from” at the beginning would save any ambiguity
“From No2Yes”
Graeme
The first have of the 2019 would give us two potentially cold winters.
SORRY, to dark, my bad
There could be a GE, so the Tories can get out of Brexit. They run away. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies.. It could be investigated and upheld to hold a GE. So the Tories can run away from any difficult negotiations. Trying to save face. Unionist Politicans often carry on like that. ‘A bad boy did it and ran away. It wisna them’.
Since this may not be the truth …..
http://archive.is/B7tqo
…. it must mean Nicola really doesn’t want Indy! 😉
Jockanese Wind Talker: I liked your four-point plan. As I said, it all sounds logical but there has to be a political will to pursue such a line. This is difficult when the rabid Yoon MSM can attack it at will. I’m hoping all will become clear once Article 50 is triggered and the FM calls the shots. This is the phoney war and I presume all powder is being kept dry by the SG.
As you say, can you imagine if Russian jets had killed 50 American/UK troops? On Pravdasound4 tonight it’s all “Look at the new Jersey Bomber!” instead.
@ Fred
I don’t know if Ian Paisley Jr applied for an Irish passport himself, but he was advising his constituents to do so as early as 25 June:
https://archive.is/FnWf6
There are a number of other similar articles available.
It is the tax which has affected the Oil sector. Losing thousands of jobs. Osbourne put the tax up 11% ( £2Billion) in the 2011 Budget, to 81%. Danny Alexander laughed about it. The tax was kept at 60/80%, when the Oil price fell 75%. The tax is 40% since January 2016. If it was 20% Corp tax while the price is low. No one would have lost their jobs and Oil would be produced keeping imports down.
The US will withdraw Trident on Brexit.
@ Arbroath1320 at 5.00
While everyone is so pre-occupied with Ruth’s rudeness about her own and Angela Eagle’s physical appearance, she’s got away with saying that they both have “northern” accents.
Humph.
Arbroath
Scotland needs 51% for independence.
Scotland would need to be independent well before May 2019 to have a clear hand in dealing with both the EU and rUK.
No-one in the EU or the UK will pay any attention to Scotland as long as we remain a region of the UK for all political purposes.
Brilliant post, Rev! Absolute spot-on and with real in-depth analysis too. This is one post I’m copying and holding on to for the arguments in the future.
Who would want to be Theresa May? So keen was she to become PM, that she didn’t gaze long enough at the potential disasters in taking such on such a position. simply put, I can only see her getting the sack no matter what way she jumps.
Invoke Article 50, and as everyone is suspecting, Sterling plummets, the markets bomb big time, pensions are affected, the EU offer no special trade deals but will impose tariffs, companies begin to pull out of the UK, investment dries up, unemployment rises, living standards slowly begin to take a hit …and so does everyone in the UK. With possible animosity coming from all sections of society at Theresa …many will demand her head for such a catastrophic hit to the UK in so many ways. Recovery will take a decade or more.
If she decides to ‘bottle it’ and therefore tries to either weasel her way back in with the EU (or just sit and go ‘la-la-la-la’ pretending the Brexit will go away and everyone will forget), then not only does half of England explode in rage, but so will her party. Civil war will ensue throughout the party with David Davis and Co on one side, and Theresa and her cohorts on the other. It would surely mean that Theresa would have to fall on her sword having failed to live up to her word on delivering Brexit.
(At the point if Theresa did sit too long without invoking Brexit, then would it be unimaginable to say that we could end up with both the Tories and Labour both being involved in their own bitter civil wars at the exact same time? What would that mean for the SNP and Scotland?)
As said, I can’t think of another time in British history since the actual Civil War (1640’s) where the whole of the UK was involved in something that could tear the country apart in so many ways.
We do live in interesting times!
“As a liberal I’m an internationalist, you will never persuade me that Nationalism, which has never ended well in any part of the world at any time in history, is the way to see my country go.”
This man must be in a permanent fuddle. Carmichael emerges from purdah and addresses the 12.
It is clear that he hasn’t quite grasped what Self Determination for Scotland means. One up side. We won’t have to listen to pish like this again.
His pants are still on fire.
I’m not convinced that we will know how Brexit negotiations are getting on. The whole point of negotiations is that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. What will be clear in the spring is what the UK is pitching for. The next clear sign would be a total breakdown of negotiations, which is perfectly conceivable. The U.K. Is trying to negotiate with its hands tied behind its back by UKIP and the Tory right, so may run out of wiggle room as it did with the plan to hold a referendum.
So do we need long enough for economic catastrophe to strike, in order to persuade the nervous that the lifeboats are safer than the sinking ship?
Oddly, I think not. The elderly and those of a nervous disposition would no doubt prefer to go down with the SS Britannic than risk choppy seas in an independent lifeboat. So economic disaster is probably too scary. What we need, and what I think is being delivered magnificently, is an unfolding panorama of utter cluelessness and confusion from Westminster, with every party (bar the SNP) splitting into warring factions, each as rudderless as the next.
When a well-managed Scotland seems a safer bet than a disintegrating status quo – that’s when we’ll see the cautious No voters shuffling quietly to Yes.
@ smallaxe
Do you perchance play the ukulele.
@ Vestas 1997 to 2017 in 4 minutes? You must drive a Delorean 🙂
@ Tinto Chiel agreed regarding phoney war and SG keeping their powder dry.
The Yoon MSM will attack anything SG/SNP do at will and distort/omit anything positive in a vain attempt to keep the appetite/belief for/in Independence down.
Whenever we have a referendum, I reckon we need to split the EU question.
Either a double question referendum with independence and the EU on the ballot paper, or a subsequent referendum or elections.
Otherwise we will never hear the end of the unionist taunt:
“Sturgeon wants to take us out of one union and hand over control to Brussels instead.”
It’s bullshit, but some people will believe it, and we need every vote we can get.
If a good majority of Scots wanted to stay in Europe a few months ago, we are very likely to get a similar result.
But the *principle* of allowing a separate Scottish vote under different circumstances is important, and will make it easier to attract votes from those who voted to leave.
If Scotland becomes a ‘bridge’ to Europe, that surely must be a win win for rUK.
By the same headquarter plaque location trick, rUK could remain effectively in the single market?
Uk are out of Europe, that is a given. However, by an independent Scotland staying in, this would be a benefit to rUK. Obviously, Scotland and England will never pull the shutters down on each other.
Seems this could be a great selling point to the union.
A man who I thought was a likely NO voter walked into my office on 19th of September and said ” we’re just going to have to do that all over again in five years”.
I know he is definitely YES now, but I kind of think he did vote NO. The NO side winning made him sick in his guts.
Our best platform is a hard Brexit.
Us oldies can remember, or be reminded 🙂 , of life with no oil and outside the EU in 1973-5. The winter of Discontent, the 3 day week, no winter fuel allowance, inflation at 22% so your parents had to come and eat with you as the pension couldn’t keep up with prices and dead bodies lying un-buried.
And where are we today? No oil, as the Yoons keep reminding us and about to be outside the EU. Now the case for independence looks a lot safer and remember that with independence we can set the taxes on the oil thats left. We will not be constrained by the policies of the Westminster that has got us into this fankle.
All we have to do is keep reminding people that we have experience of what life is like with no oil and outside the EU. But we need to get started on it.
In the immediate context of Angela Merkel being squeezed by the far right AFD party Brexit type immigration, and France coming under pressure from Le Pen for a Brexit type referendum, perhaps it is worth remembering that Scotland is the only part of the EU which has faced a trial by referendum, withstood the onslaught of xenophobic propaganda, and ratified its allegiance to Europe.
You could argue that potentially makes Scotland the poster child for European integration and tolerance.
Perhaps we shouldn’t shy about asking Europe to help us in our time of need.
I don’t mean interfering with constitutional choices which Scotland has to make, but say for example Brussels was to choose a venue in Scotland for a summit, or just in general have a bit of a charm offensive in Scotland which keeps a broader outlook going in our domestic news output, and also keeps the narrative pro European and pro integration.
Just think of all those supporting pan-European journalists writing stories about Scotland in a positive light, and Scotland being central to being constructive developments and progressive ideas about EU integration and reform.
Truth be known, I don’t know what Europe physically can do for us, perhaps not much, but we have nailed our colours to the EU mast, we are the “right stuff” and Europe has a vested interest in seeing our progressive society succeed.
When Brexit kicks off for real, it might be nice to have European friends we can readily recognise.
Us oldies can remember, or be reminded ? , of life with no oil and outside the EU in 1973-5. The winter of Discontent, the 3 day week, no winter fuel allowance, inflation at 22% so your parents had to come and eat with you as the pension couldn’t keep up with prices and dead bodies lying un-buried.
That was class war, English class war. In the 30’s general strike, the same thing happened. Then the middle classes did the jobs of the working class, well not all of them, but they drove buses, ran the tube. North Sea oil gave the winners of the class the war the cash money to pay for it all.
There’s a good chance the next class war is brewing in England. C4 Dispatches on right the now, is a good example of what JC is going to get til he’s gone.
Hamish100 says:
19 September, 2016 at 6:28 pm
Arbroath
Scotland needs 51% for independence
—-
You obviously have more faith in British fair play than I do. My view is that if it is actually 51%, it’ll be announced as 47 or 48%. Oh tough luck Jocks, you came so close but failed again, serial losers, etc. We need it to be as near to 60% as possible, in other words, unfixable. We are dealing with the British state here, it will do everything possible to keep the golden goose that is Scotland. I just wish more of our countrymen and woman woke up to this and joined our side, aka The Good Guys.
Wee wullie on the tv.
If he looses his seat can we please please keep him. Oh go on. I have an inflated bladder on a stick and a hat with jingly bells that will fit him perfectly.
Pleeeeese.
Oops! North Sea oil gave the winners of the 70’s class war, the cash money to pay for it all.
It looks like English class struggle goes or comes in 3 to 4 decade spates. The 30’s, then the 70’s, and possibly this one. Extremes of wealth and privilege, ruthless exploitation, work force with little or no stake in tory socio economics that mean only the rich get richer, and blammo…
Scotland suffers no matter what though.
Indyref 2 should certainly be held before the next uk election.
The thought of a Tory win should focus minds marvellously.
Although I would not bet against a raft of ‘too close to call’ polls.
Good analysis, I hope you’re right Rev. I put a hundred quid on a second indyref before 2020 and another hundred on it being a yes vote the day we voted to leave the EU. The odds were about five times better the day before the EU vote but I didn’t think we would vote to leave.
Also the whole independence thing would be good 😉
@ Onwards
“Sturgeon wants to take us out of one union and hand over control to Brussels instead.”
It’s bullshit, but some people will believe it, and we need every vote we can get.
Just show them this…
http://imgur.com/a/dXZys
We all pool a little of our sovereignty (except the isolationist rUK) to keep peace and prosperity for all in Europe.
This is real down-the-rabbit-hole stuff: Daniel Sanderson’s piece in the herald headlined: “SNP MP ‘regrets’ offence caused by homophobic slur at independence event”. Now the Herald is going to have to be very careful it is not suggesting that Joanna Cherry somehow perpetrated a homophobic slur! How ridiculous.
Maybe some coincidence that the Herald chooses Joanna Cherry for its next pan unionist smear campaign a few short days after she performed so well during Question Time. They fear nothing more than such talent.
That is 7 of the herald’s 10 most popular articles on its website ie the articles it is pushing either anti-snp or anti independence.
There is nothing I now find as repugnant, as sickening as one of these once great Scottish newspapers now viscerally anti Scottish, prostrate before the edifice of the UK. Doing its master’s bidding, even after all the noises before the EU ref vote. The day it closes its doors cannot come soon enough. In truth it will be a mercy.
Well that wasn’t very scary, old JC’s probably not Arthur Scargill either, or not yet. Next week, C4 Dispatches are going undercover with far right lunatics like Nigel Farage and UKIP, Nic Robinson and BBC, various Lords at the trough, and assorted yoonster Brexiteers raging for Hard Brexit.
Well 10 minutes of the Vomit inducing ” support the brits” up yours Jocks “Union flag fest” masquerading as the Davis cup on Sunday Raised a cheer when the Argies stuffed the Jolly old BRIT Player in the same mould as darling “Timmy” remember him he has a hill named after him because he couldn’t quite manage to get his name on the Trophy at jolly old wimbers , shame that and they duefully drag him out year after year to comment on players whos Playing standard he can only dream of , i am glad it was a “BRIT” and not Andy who was responsible for their ultimate demise , if it had been he would instantly have reverted to of all things a “SCOT”. Funny old game eh Timothy ? .
If ever I needed proof that journalists are indeed making stories up rather than researching them for accuracy then such an example came from Gillian Bowditch in the Sunday Times. She talked about a new government programme called” I matter”,
and got most of it totally wrong. I know because I have extensive knowledge of the initiative. She tried to make it sound like a management tool, but it is anything but.
Lazy inept,journalism, unlike the Rev.
The print to suit their story not the facts.
handclapping says:
“Our best platform is a hard Brexit.”
Very soft Brexit and it would be hard to justify IndyRef2. The harder, the better, from a selling Indy point of view.
They will not go for a ‘Norway solution’ because that means paying into the EU. In fact, it’s unlikely you can be in the ESM and not contribute. I therefore (like A Salmond) expect Brexit to not be soft.
I do think a priority for WM will be the protection of the London financial market which I believe delivers ~20% of all tax.
Also, there will have to be open borders with Ireland and Gibraltar, or Ireland and Spain will veto. The problem for Scotland with hard Brexit will be a proper border, but with the precident of the two above, Scotland should be allowed an open border with rUK.
Apart from that, they can be as hard as nails and please their loony fringe!
Tam Jardine @ 8.02
Plus 1 Tam.
Zane Stumpo says:
19 September, 2016 at 6:49 pm
I’m not convinced that we will know how Brexit negotiations are getting on. The whole point of negotiations is that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. What will be clear in the spring is what the UK is pitching for. The next clear sign would be a total breakdown of negotiations, which is perfectly conceivable. The U.K. Is trying to negotiate with its hands tied behind its back by UKIP and the Tory right, so may run out of wiggle room as it did with the plan to hold a referendum.
———-
When Article 50 is triggered, there is a 2 year countdown. A qualified majority is needed to agree a Brexit, but a vote to extend that timescale and any subsequent trade deals require unanimous agreement.
I reckon it will become clear right from the start that freedom of movement is a non-negotiable principle, and the UK will either have to accept that or give up on tariff-free access to the single market.
It’s in everyone’s interest that a trade deal will be hammered out eventually, but there could be many years under WTO rules before that happens, causing significant damage to the UK economy. EU revenge for Brexit perhaps.
It’s problematic for Scotland, because independence becomes a lot harder until a trade deal is in place. Otherwise it will be Project Fear 2 with the unionists saying the UK will put tariffs on Scotland.
Would the UK deliberately damage its own economy to tighten its grip over Scotland ??
@Rev “Given the language already coming from Europe, the EU would almost certainly be amenable to granting Scotland some sort of temporary bridging membership allowing it to continue without a break while the fine details were thrashed out”
On RT at 8 tonight we had a report saying Soctland is seeking assurances from EU that it will remain in EU if it becomes independent
I’m sure I read in the express the other day that Nicola Sturgeon did actually shoot some orphans with a machine gun.
I heard somewhere the uk pension is one of the worst in the eu.
Don’t know if that’s true or not but if it is would it not be a good idea to have a simple A5 or A6 sized sheet made to hand around the doors, leave in doctors, places where pensioners hang to show them how bad the pension is.
EU Pensions.
France £???
Germany £????
Poland £?????
Then in big red font uk £?????
Just to show how bad the pension is. On the reverse you could have the same list but a projected independent Scotland pension.
I guess you’d have to compare the figures of pension income against the price of milk, bread, that kinda stuff to get it all converted into a common £’s figure but it would be a snappy, easy, direct way to show people who don’t want to read through mountains of information.
Moving on? Nah, the Little Britain mindset is resistant to change. Just look at the nepotism and cronyism at the heart of our very “traditionalist” British state. Look at how the forces of darkness were able to mobilise the English masses to ‘gain’ an ill-judged Brexit vote. As such;
Onwards
Re. “pulling and sharing” from the previous thread. That’s just nifty brand marketing, whereby the exploitative nature of England’s internal colonialistion of the Celtic Fringe, is re-branded as socialism. That’s British Fabianism that is. Or English Socialism, if you like. 😉
Moving on? Nah, the Little Britain mindset is resistant to change. Just look at the nepotism and cronyism at the heart of our very “traditionalist” British state. Look at how the forces of darkness were able to mobilise the English masses to ‘gain’ an ill-judged Brexit vote. As such;
Onwards
Re. “pooling and sharing” from the previous thread. That’s just nifty brand marketing, whereby the exploitative nature of England’s internal colonialistion of the Celtic Fringe, is re-branded as socialism. That’s British Fabianism that is. Or English Socialism, if you like. 😉
Onwards
Re. “pooling and sharing” even 🙂
It’s problematic for Scotland, because independence becomes a lot harder until a trade deal is in place. Otherwise it will be Project Fear 2 with the unionists saying the UK will put tariffs on Scotland.
Problem is Teresa Thatcher’s crew have UKIP breathing down their necks. Its why she keeps blurting out Brexit means Brexit. They have a GE coming that will be the judge of tory Brexit reality and if its not Brexit or the probably fudge, its going to be a really interesting time for the far right in England.
That embarrassing. Sorry folks.
Kevin,
I think the work and pensions minister has already said that pensions will be reduced from 2020.
Even if by some miracle a soft BREXIT is negotiated, the people of Scotland will never forget the vote in 2016. That is when we went our own way. Even the threat to pull Scotland out of Europe, against the expressed democratic wish of its people, has already caused great offence. The yoons may try to play it down, but its already carved in stone (62% remain, every single region remain). Too late, chums.
It does not fit the Great British narrative, and so Neil Oliver may hate to acknowledge it. But this is already part of Scottish history, and it can’t be brushed aside.
Too bad, Neil. History was made in 2016, and you were on the wrong side of it.
Did anyone notice how the STV Scottish News referred to Statoil as being a large Norwegian Oil Company , not once referring it as Government owned.
Thought. If we get the UK’s seat in EU as continuing state, does that run to the UN? Do we get the permanent Security Council seat too?
Joking aside, two years ago, the UK would have expected continuing state status in all situations. Next time, the situation will not be so straightforward. If Brexit and Indy occur around the same time it will be more like the UK ceasing to exist, dissolving into two states. One with trade agreements in place via the EU, the other with very little!
Aye, a good old-fashioned bribe.
Nothing wrong with that if the motive is correct.
‘Oi! Youse auld yins, and those getting there – if Scotland goes independent we’ll be able to afford a real year-on-year increase to bring us into line with those European nation states we’re still pals with. Guaranteed.’
It’s horrible saying it, but there’s a hard-core of people, regardless of age, who only understand one thing. Sort that?They’ll sign anything. And they won’t give a tinker’s curse what the currency’s called so long as they can pay their bills and have enough ‘pounds/punts/Euros’ or whatever-they-are left for the wee luxuries their French and German peers enjoy.
Article 50 will be triggered in early Spring 2017, and IndyRef2 will take place in late Autumn 2017. A short, sharp campaign to deny Project Fear the extended drip feed of negative propaganda it enjoyed over two years leading up to IndyRef1. Scotland will then sit at Brexit negotiations through 2018 securing unbroken inheritance of the departing UK membership.
Finally I got the eurostats figures and did an excel, phew!
So basically with the new qualified voting rules, where both a majority of 16 or more states, and a population share of 65% ore more are needed, both conditions needing to be met, then 13 states can turn it down (I’m not going into blocking), which means currently these member states:
Malta, Luxembourg, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Slovenia, Lithuania, Croatia, Ireland, Slovakia, Finland, Denmark, Bulgaria (in ascending population size)
with a total population of 42,720,500 can stop legislation from the whole EU with a population of 510,056,000 – just 8.4%. Scotland would slot in around Slovakia and Finland, displacing Bulgaria (sorry Bulgaria).
So much for small nations as member states, having no power in the EU.
But it is a part of the ethos of the EU, that smaller states have larger influence than their size, something by far the most of people won’t know. YET.
Vambomarbeley says:
19 September, 2016 at 6:50 pm
@ smallaxe
“Do you perchance play the ukulele.”
Harmonica my friend,but if I may boast,my 13yr old granddaughter plays,uke,guitar,keyboard and is at the moment
learning Violin,she is also in the Scottish Youth Choir.
Fancy a jam session? 🙂
Peace,Love and Music
Wow, just noticed the incredible similarity in population share of the EU of those 13 countries, compared with Scotland’s of the UK.
The difference being in the EU we could do it, in the UK we’re shafted. Same population percentage.
The annoying thing about the Yoons is that they will happily lie or say one thing one minute and another thing the next.
They just don’t care, they will say whatever they need to to keep control of Scotland.
Not new to some I’m sure but I’ve been away a couple of days and not caught up yet.
https://archive.is/C2Hg1
@kevin Evans 8.22
British Pensions amongst the worst in Europe – Britain 21 out of 28
A Scottish Government promising EU average pensions in the event of Independeve would do well
Question is:- if Scotland gets the UK seat in the EU does it vote for harder or softer Brexit for rUK?
And the UN one is interesting, after all its us that actually has Trident 🙂
Orlando Quarmby says:
19 September, 2016 at 9:02 pm
“Article 50 will be triggered in early Spring 2017, and IndyRef2 will take place in late Autumn 2017. A short, sharp campaign to deny Project Fear the extended drip feed of negative propaganda it enjoyed over two years leading up to IndyRef1. Scotland will then sit at Brexit negotiations through 2018 securing unbroken inheritance of the departing UK membership”.
This would be my preference too. In fact I think it’s the only way it’s going to work. 2019 is far too late.
JET Jockey says:
19 September, 2016 at 8:47 pm
“Did anyone notice how the STV Scottish News referred to Statoil as being a large Norwegian Oil Company , not once referring it as Government owned.”
Speaking of Oil Jet,
GREENPEACE
Hi Smallaxe,
Indonesia: right now. Picture huge fires in swathes of beautiful rainforest. Imagine people and animals struggling to see, struggling to breathe, as a thick haze spreads.
All the while, one palm oil company – called IOI – shrugs its shoulders and refuses to act, despite years of bulldozing rainforest and letting it burn.
During last year’s fires we forced big brands like Colgate to take rainforest destruction seriously – so we know that change is truly possible. Together we’re going to win again – we’re going to show this palm oil predator, IOI, that the world has had enough. Are you in?
IOI is a faceless palm oil company that keeps a low-profile (they have 86 followers on Twitter!) because they count on people being totally uninterested in their bad behaviour to get away with it. IOI thrives on secrecy and it’s up to us to expose it. If thousands of us add our names to this petition, IOI will know that thousands of pairs of eyes are watching them and they won’t be able to hide their forest crimes any more.
SIGN THE PETITION
This petition is only the beginning; it’s part of a whole range of things we’re doing together across the world to challenge this company. Our investigators are already digging into IOI’s suppliers – finding yet more evidence of the company’s wrongdoing.
The industry is already turning against IOI. Last year half a million of us from a whole host of countries exposed big brands with an embarrassing palm oil league table and a whopping worldwide petition. As a direct result dozens of brands stopped buying from IOI. But now we need to stop this company’s shocking practices for good.
Fires are burning again in Indonesia and we cannot wait for IOI to change on their own. Please sign the petition now.
SIGN THE PETITION
Thanks for everything Smallaxe,
India
Greenpeace UK
We don’t accept any money from companies or governments so we can be independent and challenge anyone who threatens the planet or peace. To help us keep fighting climate change, defending our oceans and protecting ancient forests, you can make a regular donation by direct debit. Thank you!
Greenpeace Ltd, Canonbury Villas, London N1 2PN (registered in London no 1314381, VAT registration no 625951426)
The Dream Will Never Die, I don’t know much about this song, but man it is fantastic.
http://tinyurl.com/j9n3aoj
I make no apologies for posting my other interests, I love our
Nation,the KINGDOM of SCOTLAND.
Our efforts to gain Independence will come to nil if this fragile globe spinning in space turns to barren dust all
around us.
Peace and Love the Planet
And if there is a “hard” border at Gretna, what is / will be the EU tariff on the import of nuclear warheads?
Re pensions https://www.lovemoney.com/news/23347/uks-pension-system-developed-worlds-second-worst-mexico
Re pensioners https://www.vouchedfor.co.uk/blog/UK-worst-Western-Europe-pensioner-poverty
Mabye some leaflets aimed a older voters asking if this is what they want for their children/grandchildren.
2019 would be my preferred time to go for another Indy Ref at the earliest.
2018 we would be into a full one Brit Nat Propaganda storm as they furiously and cynically try to rewrite the Fist WW. They are already trying to do that as far as I can see.
2017 might just be too soon as the nasty side effects of Brexit wont really kick in until later. Throw in some austerity as well.
I think the focus for next year must be on depriving the Brit Nat creeps the control of the majority of Scotland’s local councils. The Brit Nats either as a majority or in a coalition cant be trusted with those voters registers.
Well something also needs to be done about the PV and funding in relation to any Indy Ref and it is as clear as daylight that the Electoral Commission cant be trusted either.
I think 2020 is out because of the Brit GE. That will be another full on UKOK Propaganda Creep Show. Not to mention another Brit Nat Olympic Master Race creep show.
2021 for me might just be too far away. My health is going and I have maybe enough left in the tank for one more good fight.
My Diary is staying clear for the spring of 2019.
@smallaxe
Do you have a link for the petition please?
Brexit will be triggered late Jan 17. Indi ref 2 will be late summer 2017. That’s my gut feeling on this.
One_Scot:
Brilliant,thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Peace Always ALLWAYS
1973-1975 Class War?.. Definitely.What I remember is the lying media, then as now, fabricating their right wing narrative: anti-working class..shirkers..greedy unions etc. etc….yeah there were dead bodies lying unburied…those of the old and poor frozen to death on starvation wages and pensions.
Total campaign to wipe out working class advances won over 70 odd years. ‘Cummings’ cartoons in the Daily Express..crude caricatures of ‘commies’ and ‘Irish’ all beetle browed and atavistic. Also don’t forget the planned coup de etat by the military top brass and Brit Intelligence against P.M Harold Wilson a couple of years earlier. BBC blatant anti-Jock agit prop with the ludicrous ‘Scotch on the Rocks’ series pish about the Scots rising against their masters…written by Tory Baron Douglas Hurd….even worse than the ‘Vow’.
Good and deliberate fertile ground for Reactionary rise of Thatcher and the tory right…determined to punish the ‘workers’ first and steal from the Jocks second. Thus the template for what we now are suffering: The Orwellian prediction of ‘ If you want a picture of the future..imagine a boot stamping on a human face….forever.
‘An independent Scotland will be free to decide how much the state pension is. We will do that responsibly, but we pledge that it’ll be increased in real terms, annually, for at least a decade following freedom from Westminster rule.’
What’s wrong with that?
Why can’t that be stated, with honesty and confidence?
@cadogan enright 9:23
I thought it wasn’t too impressive in relation to other eu nations (including possible retirement age)
An easy read list in order of eu pension and age it can be drawn at would go along way for the pensioners. As I said before list them all in a nice EU blue starting with (as guessing Norway or Germany) the top eu pension listing downwards until we reach the UK pension in bold bright red. Maybe even on the list put “an independent Scotland” on the list inserted where it seems viable in gold EU star writing but in brackets.
Easy to produce and very effective and punchy for everyone to see. I think a Scottish independent pension would be compaired to Norway/Finland/Denmark idea. I dunno enough about it if an honest and it’s pure speculation based on size of nation and similar ideas and resources.
Make a poster and get it up in surgeries, library’s wherever people like pensioners might visit.
Just an idea
The EU is about to fall apart why would you risk leaving the strongest and best union that has served well over 300 years to try your luck with an EU run by the French and Germans – you saw whet they did to Greece
Discuss
Why do we need another Indyref?
The Scottish Brexit referendum vote of 62% to stay in the EU handed the Scottish government handed a clear mandate to ensure we remain in the EU. Why not issue a declaration to the UK government that any negotiation that leads to the UK existing from the EU means the dissolution of the Union between Scotland and England? And put a timescale on triggering Article 50.
2014 Project Fear raged Scotland would lose £4bn in sciencee money, Blair MacDougal stuck out as one of the most terrify of terrifying bootboys but there were a few more too, Professor Hugh Pennington stuck out on all UKOK channels, terrifying for the union but he’s gone very Brexit quiet, much like fart face McDougal.
What a difference 18 months make to teamGB conmen.
“EU countries in scramble to ‘steal’ UK-based research centres
European commission under pressure to move flagship projects to rival cities, says ex-president”
http://archive.is/yFm8x
Scottish independence
Medical research would be ‘eroded and lost’ by Scottish independence
Experts fear independent Scotland would lose billions of pounds of UK funding as yes campaign says government would fill gap
http://archive.is/qsyQC
Shit – two hands are better than one I suppose.Too impatient to bother checking the text.
Stu, pick my lotto numbers.
Ealasaid says:
19 September, 2016 at 10:07 pm
@smallaxe
Do you have a link for the petition please?
I apologise,as I am using a tablet when I get the petitions
sent to me I only have to press a PAY button to make my small
contributions.Unfortunately this does not work when I copy and
Paste,if you go on to the GREENPEACE UK website you should
find it there.Dont get lost,we have lots of petitions!
Thank you for your interest Ealasaid.
Peace Love and Petitions that Work!
@Grouse Beater says: 19 September, 2016 at 12:36 pm:
“Let our two nations govern themselves, finally proud to attain political maturity, mutual friends by signed and sealed pact of co-operation between genuine equals.
Whit?
Yet tongue micht bi afa sair stuck ben yer cheek like yon, Grousebeater.
A’body kens, as far as yon Westminster gadgies gan, thir isna ony equal tae thir kinrick o Ingland ‘cos “Britian is, Great dontcha know”.
Aye! Richt!
Orlando Quarmby & R-Type Grunt
I would agree with your timescales. I recall the Scottish Government being advised that the EU would want us to hold a referendum sooner rather than later within the 2 year window and I am not sure why that is now irrelevant. Continued EU membership is the prize.
Well- I say continued but we suddenly will find our representation in the EU will increase 2.5 times. At the moment we have 1 MEP more than Malta despite having a population 12 times as big. EU presidency at some point. A seat at the table for our First Minister to push our ideas and our agenda. Direct cooperation with other EU leaders in all manner of areas.
The goowill that is there if we demonstrate again by a yes vote we want in can hardly be underestimated. And that is before we talk of financial passporting and trade.
There are dangers in waiting just as they are in pushing this through next year but it is not a decision the leadership needs to take any time soon.
Have it in place, wait for article 50 and take a call at the time. There is no value in giving the yoons early sight of the plan.
handclapping says:
19 September, 2016 at 9:51 pm
“And if there is a “hard” border at Gretna, what is / will be the EU tariff on the import of nuclear warheads?”
handclapping,as I live in Gretna with the border 500yds from my home,there will be no importation of Nuclear warheads.
However as for the WMDs already in Scotland exporting tariffs
will be free as long as they export ASAP as storage charges
Will Apply.
Peace Love and Bairns not Bombs
@John Walsh says: 19 September, 2016 at 12:37 pm:
” … Comments by Lord Darling confirm that they (BT2) think they could bring down Nicola Sturgeon”
Aiblins ye sud nae jalousie whit yon auld Laird Darlin’ micht moot maun bi suithfast, John. The auld deil maun bi weel kent iz a muckle auld waghorn
Owersettin intil the Inglis, “perhaps you should not imagine what that old Lord Darling may say must be true. The old devil must be well known as a very big liar”.
https://caltonjock.com/2016/09/19/scottish-pensioners-to-reap-the-reward-for-voting-against-independence-there-might-be-another-chance-grab-it-and-vote-yes/
Re pensions in an indy Scotland.
I totally agree that promoting decent pensions is a great idea.
But I have thought recently that the SG should say that for a period of time all money from oil should be split into an oil fund and a fund to invest in future pensions.
I remember during the last indyref seeing research on how other countries fund pensions and, if memory serves me right, Denmark’s was the best. Basically it invested workers’ contributions in much the same way as private pensions do (and the SPPA -Scottish Public Pensions Agency) so the money is there when workers retire and it doesn’t need to be funded from general taxation as is the case now.
Robert
Aye, the moment Alistair donned the ermine he became a joke.
Fortunately one rarely hears a peep out of him. He should just suck up his 30 pieces of silver and enjoy posing in front of the mirror in his robes. I have absolutely no interest in anything he has to say.
Robert Peffers:
Loved your Aul”Scots,Rab,but personally I think Laird Darlin’
micht be wrang right enoucht.
Peace tae yersul Sir
Notice Theresa May is trying to stir up the hornets nest in the EU over migration of people into Europe. “Theresa May urges global measures to tackle uncontrolled migration” (BBC article). This is a classic tactical device beloved of our neighbour – find a weakness within your enemy and play on it to divide and weaken them. The EU countries are having a tough time agreeing on how best to manage the on-going mess in the Middle East and the resultant migration of people fleeing for better lives/any kind of life at all (caused in no small part by the UK government bombing the shit out of the region) and the UK has seen an opportunity to create more mischief and stir the pot to cause division. Don’t ya just love um? What does May care about migration into the EU? She’s leaving and pulling up the ladder behind her. This is nasty stuff!
@Shug: “Discuss”
Javelin?
England, as a Colonial power, have a long long history of treachery. The history of the Union itself, is punctuated with English treachery against the Scots. Treachery goes with the territory when dealing with the English ruling classes.
It would be truly extraordinary, were Westminster to conduct Brexit in an honourable way.
As for Nicola and the rest of the Scottish Government, Brexit will be an enormous test of their political skills.
Then there’s the 27 members of the EU – the British Establishment will want to come out on top over Brexit and that will mean the Brits are sure to try some dirty tricks.
re ‘NO2YES’
agree it’s ambiguous and a very poor slogan
What about putting a verb+from before it?
something like moving/shifting/resetting/flitting/changing from NO2YES
yesindyref2 says:
19 September, 2016 at 11:36 pm
@Shug: “Discuss”
Javelin?
yesinyref2: Gonny no dae that:-)
Peace Love and a Good laugh
@Shug:”Caber”
Lift?
A rubbish thought…
http://imgur.com/a/dABGM
YESNP
I can see the reasoning for early 2019 but I much prefer a summer of huge public YES campaign and a vote in Autumn 2018.
I remember this…
http://imgur.com/a/yXr6o
And I don’t want it for my grandkids.
re’NO2YES’
How about just changing two letters?
ON2YES
PEACE Always
re Smallaxe @10.31pm
Link to the Greenpeace petition against forest clearing/burning to produce Palm oil in Indonesia:
http://secure.greenpeace.org.uk/page/s/ioi?source=em&subsource=20160919foem01&utm_source=gpeace&utm_medium=em&utm_campaign=20160919foem01
@shug 10:24
You had me at hello.
I hope you get me at FUCK OFF
“…you saw [sic]what they did to Greece.”
Basketcase, subsidy junkie Scotland (so we’re constantly reminded by the colonial media). Which Union did that, ya tit?
Meg merrilees says:
20 September, 2016 at 12:20 am
re Smallaxe @10.31pm:
Thanks so much Meg,I can’t transfer some live links from my
email,frustrating! Thanks again.
Peace and Love to you Meg and to those you Love
Just asking a question here….
During indyref1, it was oft stated that if the Tory government (Cameron) had asked for clarification advice on Scotland’s EU status after a YES vote, then Scots could have voted YES or NO with a huge factual answer on a very key topic during the indyref build up.
Now, gently assuming that the above were true and it was ONLY the Uk gov/PM allowed to ask that question of the EU, my question now is simply this….
When Article 50 is finally invoked by the WM government, it is my understanding that the uk are basically taken out of of all decision making within ongoing EU policies for obvious reasons of negotiating their exit from the EU.
Would the SCOTTISH government, be in a position to ask formally, the question of Scotland’s EU status in the event of an indy2 YES vote ?
Obviously not looking for a definitive answer here on such an unknown, but on the balance of probability, any ideas anyone ?
I think the Brittish economy is going to tank after article 50 is evoked.The financial markets will crucify the pound,money to be made.However I think it is worth consulting Wikipedia to understand how embroiled the UK economy is with Europe,Please just search,how much the Englsh economy relies on free trade with the EU look up aircraft manufacturing.Nearly every company is completely imbedded with Europe.We hardly manufacture complete aircraft most are components of French and other Eouropean companies .Therfore end of high paying and well skilled jobs,quite a few round the Bristol area.
@proudcybernat. 11.53pm
Aye….an Scotland 2016 wi 4 weekly rubbish collections…
Tommy Sheridan says a Referendum today, Robin McAlpine says 2021.
Anybody got a two headed coin and a minesweeper for Tank Ruth,Oor Wullie Rennie and they Cyan Labour MP’s. Whatever their names are.
Oh aye an a BULLDOZER AS WELL, fur the clear oot
Still Positive. says:
19 September, 2016 at 11:17 pm
Re pensions in an indy Scotland.
I totally agree that promoting decent pensions is a great idea.
But I have thought recently that the SG should say that for a period of time all money from oil should be split into an oil fund and a fund to invest in future pensions..
———-
That seems like a good proposal.
The SNP should definitely propose an element of national control in our natural resources. It was a missed opportunity last time.
A surplus of energy combined with a small population is one of the biggest advantages that an independent Scotland would have.
The price of oil might play a part in the timing of the next indyref. If it rises above $60 or $70 a barrel in 2018, then the oil companies are making big money again, especially after all the recent cost cutting.
“Dear Scottish auld yins.
If yous wanna shitey pish poor pension even shittier than ye awready huv….vote naw”.
If ye voted naw an cannae pit ra heatin oan…ask big gurdy broon…pension stealin yoonie goon, he huzzit…aw tuck awa’ in his feckin fat folds…
REMEMBUR, Vote naw, then get fuck aw…
Not actually sure i want high oil prices for the nexr referendum as it opens up the “volatility” shite.
If oil is still fairly low, we can point to the already proven little or no effect on Scotlands finances.
That aside, any oil price would suddenly be only getting shared amongst 5 million Scots, and remember what PM Cameron said about why Norway was loaded and the uk wasn’t….
Currency is going to be flung at us again.
I would like our opening gambit to be along the lines…”Scottish pound and there will absolutely no debt share. Of course we would prefer a deal to our mutual interests, but lets face it, YOU FUCKWITS SAID NO CHANCE, so now, SCOTLAND says UP YOURS this time”.
Timing is secondary to victory. I’d rather wait and get it than go sooner and risk it.
I can’t share those ‘analyses’ which say we’ll miss the mood/moment and leave it too late. Independence is, for so many reasons, an idea whose time has come. Though not inevitable, equally it can’t blow away like a cloud. It has historical roots (the death of empire and now the union) and fundamental driving forces(the need for social justice and self determination). It’s not going to go away.
And neither, of course, are we!
3 posts haven’t appeared now… 4th time lucky.
Next referendum, we should not be shy about asking for help from Europe.
To take the European perspective for a moment, you have Angela Merkel coming under UKIP type pressure from the AfD in Germany over immigration, and the French coming under similar far right pressure from Marine Le Pen’s National Front demanding a French Brexit type referendum.
We have all heard the credible argument that the Lisbon Treaty with its article 50 is designed to be difficult to discourage members leaving the EU, but over and above this, what Germany and France have in Scotland is a potential European Country which has gone through a devisive audit of EU membership, and has rejected the pressures of right wing xenophobic isolationism, and instead affirmed its allegiance to the more progressive values of European integration.
Played correctly, I would suggest that Germany and France, and indeed the whole EU has a stake in Scotland’s efforts to become an independent pro EU Nation state ultimately succeeding. They have, in Scotland, a poster child; a Nation State that would break its union with Brexit Xenophobes rather than be taken out of Europe. What message would it send to the AfD and Marine Le Pen, already bolstered by Brexit, if the EU turned its back on Scotland?
Let p’s not work alone this time around. Let’s get YES2 speaking to our friends in Europe. Let us ask the EU to actively back us. Just imagine if the EU was perhaps to host a big summit here in Scotland; lots of big fish from the EU making constructive news headlines right here in Scotland, and supported by a press core of pan-European journalists and broadcasters.
With such powerful friends properly briefed abour Scotland’s predicament and how our voice is muted by hostile UKOK propaganda, with European help maybe we can give the BBC a run for its money.
Imagine the Express tearing its hair out as Scotland showcases itself to the whole of Europe, and Scotland’s leaders mingle with European leaders, forging ties and friendships while the rest of the U.K. is buttoning up its duffle coat and stocking up on paraffin and tinned goods for life after Brexit. Never mind two saltires by the fireplace, imagine the saltire sharing the stage with 27 other national flags, and no Union Jack to be seen.
Ask not what we can do for Europe, but we should be asking what Europe can, and might actually want to do for us, and what we can achieve when we work together.
Reading through all the latest posts and ideas makes
me realise that despite the media assault on our intelligence
the mood for independence is stronger than ever, and
even if we have varying views on the timing, we all agree
that the strategy to target the folk who were persuaded
by Brown by the vow is of prime importance. As a few
here have mentioned, raising pensions would convert
many, and it’s not hard to explain where the money
would come from. Trident, war in Syria, Afganistan,
Iraq, our share of interest payments (around £5 billion
per annum) towards the £1.67 trillion debt (that nobody
mentions, but we should be shouting from the rooftops),
and countless other areas that we won’t be paying for
once we are independent.
Breeks
I agree, hosting an Eu summit on Scotland, with eu leaders attending, if it was possible would send a definite signal.
If this isn’t possible I would hope that post article 50, the EU will come from out with an equivocal statement on Scotlands membership of the EU.
Given the rumours and quotes from people like Guy Verhofstadt, would hope this would happen.
Who knows article 50 negotiations could also encompassing Scotland joining Eu and leaving the Uk with Eu negotiators helping Scotland negotiate with England. If independence is bound to uk brexit, it would stop uk dragging it’s feet.
The Greens – NO2YES. Poetic. Just wait. Blackmail.Held to ransom. Renege. Collude with Unionists.
The Tories and their associates want out of the EU so they can continuing tax evading and diverting £Billions of public funds into their own pockets. Embezzling public money by wasting it on grotesque projects of little values and no business case. when there are safer more productive ecological, economic alternatives. HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident etc.
The EU is going to stop companies, inter State, tax evasion. Tighten up regulations. This will stop the Non Dom and associates in the UK from tax evading. That is why the Tories/UKIP and their multimillionaire donors want out of the EU. To damage the world economy, but line their and their associates pockets. Enough is never enough for their excesses. The UK is the most unequal, unfair place in the world.
The Tories/UKIP have manipulated the immigration figures deliberately to achieve their aim. Included foreign students in the figures – only here on temporary visas with total funding. They bring money £Billion into the country on a temporary stay. The figures for Brits in Spain etc have been underestimated by the nos of UK migrants that take up citizen status to pay less tax in EU countries. e.g. Portugal retirees tax free for ten years, if they take up residential citizenship status. Spain etc they pay less tax as Spanish citizens. The non of migrants from Britain in the EU has be deliberately understated.
The increased migration in Europe is caused by illegal invasions and wars. It is caused by UK/US and France bombing the Middle East for years,, taking their resources and causing deprivation and poverty. Costing £Billions and millions of deaths. The UK Westminster Unionist Gov refuses to take responsibility for the havoc they have caused at home and abroad. Destroying the world economy.
Trying to divert the cause of EU membership, to a migration crisis they have caused. Trying to divert from their absolute ignorance, arrogance and incompetence Governance. Scotland is paying for it. The Scottish economy is being destroyed by the total incompetence and ignorance of Westminster. Taking from the vulnerable to enrich multimillionaires. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour. They will not get away with it.
The Tories are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people. Illegally cutting the NHS/Education and essential services funding. Funding they were elected to protect and cutting the debt. With Brexit Trident will be going along with everything else. Masses of other businesses and business opportunities will take off. Including flight companies. Take flight with fright.
The Tories are going after the pensioners. That might concentrate a lot of minds. Referendums can be held at any time if the electorate agrees. Referendums are not mutually exclusive. They can be legislated at any time if the electorate agrees. One two or three. If at first you don’t succeed. Try, try and try again. This battle must be won for peace, prosperity and happiness. The happiest, most prosperous, cohesive countries are the most equal and fair.
Vote SNP/SNP May 2017.
To protect essential services funding. Wipe out non mandated spending on grotesque projects, not agreed by the public. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Unionist criminals and officials who are not fit for public office. Censored time and time again. They just keep doing it. Time and time and time again.
So how do we appeal to the ‘grey vote”?
Remind them at every opportunity that the only reason they still have free bus passes, a workinf NHS, free prescriptions and free care in their old age if they ever need it without being forced to sell their home us because of the SNP government.
Their grandchildren have tuition free higher education only due to the SNP administration. The NHS that we all hope never to have to rely on is only as successful as it is due to the SNP governments.
Tug on their heartstrings that under Brexit and o Tory government their grandkids will likely see a return to 1950s poverty – only this time there will not even be jobs for them to earn the pennies for food.
I reckon the key to the hearts of the “rich, grey” noes is the “pound” in their pocket. Promise them a pension, gradually rising to match the best in Europe – only possible once we rid ourselves of Trident, London’s vanity spends like HS2 and crossrail 2. Promise that once we can afford it we would bring back mortgage tax relief on their mortgage.
In short promise them all the things that existed to aid the middle classes that the Tories took away when the working class began to access them.
Any time GERS or subsidy junkies is brought up, ridicule he figures. “Come on – the figures for whisky exports state that ENGLAND exports £3.5 Billion of whisky”. Point out that no corporation taxes are included in the figures. Point out that a huge amount of oil exports are not counted “pro regio”.
Any time oil is mentioned, remind them that the Tories sold their our final 31% stake in BP for a paltry $12 Billion – the company in its good years was turning over profits of $10 Billion plus in the years that followed.
All the while, sow the seeds of doubt in their mind about the right wing press, BBC & STV being nothing more than liars and propoganda outlets of the Westminster Govt.
Remind them at every opportunity that the EU has been good for jobs, investment and the betterment of some of our most deprived areas. Ask them to name even ONE good thing that ANY London government has done to better the lives of themselves or their grandkids. Them proceed to remind them of the good things the SNP have done for them in their old age – free health care, bus pass, education for the grandkids, prescriptions, the best performing NHS in the UK and even the council tax freeze that was in place till just last year.
Finally, be 100% certain of how the Single Transferable vote system works in the Council Elections to come. Point put the fact that Labour and Tory voters are now combining to thwart the only party who actually cares about them. Educate them as to how the system works. Especially if you are in a region that has Tory candidates masquerading as independants be sure they recognise them as such.
If the various Union is parties manage to keep the SNP from controlling the councils then I truly fear for our future at local government level.
The Tories can’t pat their head and rub their tummy at the same time.
Mundell’s job is to slap down any notion of a second Independence Referendum taking place in tandem with May and the Three Brexiteers negotiating Brivorce terms with Johnny Foreigner.
The Red Blue and Yellow Tories have shown scant disregard for What Scotland Wants.
At 7.30 am on the morning after the night before, the 19th of September 2014, Cameron was on the steps of No 10 talking EVEL, the Scots having been put firmly back in their box.
The signatories to the Daily Record inspired VOW, Cameron Clegg and Miliband are now tumbleweed in the Ghost Town of Politicians Past.
Lord Smith chaired a committee stuffed with Unionist failures, Gray, Tomkins, Goldie, and so on, and WM made a filibustering farce of the debate on Mundell’s Scotland Act, and forced through the Union’s version of the ‘most powerful’ mockery of democracy outside North Korea or China.
If we allow WM plain sailing over the next few years and they emerge from the EU untrammelled by the Jock Question, the Britnats will legislate Down There to emasculate Scotland’s parliament, and, I have no doubt at all, ban any future Independence referendums.
At that stage, they won’t give a Gordon Brown pledge about political flak Up Here.
Scotland will not have the protection of EU or international laws to support them. We will be a localised North Britain problem.
We are already referred to as insurgents in our own land.
We must act now, in tandem with our EU Partners, to secure the best UKexit deal we can, while WM and the Holy London Empire are horse trading on the Continent.
The Britnat WM post-EU Government will be a frightening Right Wing organisation, which will simply ignore Scotland and the ‘will of the Scottish People’, if we are mug enough to believe the MSM and BBC PQ, and delay too long.
Strike while the iron is at least lukewarm.
Just vote SNP/SNP/SNP 2017. Do not waste your vote. Do not divert for any reason. Do not let anyone else in. No chinks in the armour. Wipe the slate clean. Do not listen to any other propaganda.
Good morning People:
It’s nice to see some good posts first thing in the morning,very heartening.
geeo: I feel your passion,but you will persuade more people using honey than you will using vinegar.We all can swear and who can blame us.but your 4:24 and 4:41am posts are liable to
put people off.they will just scroll past and won’t see the
point that your trying to put across. I really hope that you
don’t take my advice the wrong way.
None of us are perfect but we are all heading in the same
direction. I really hope that that you don’t think I’m some
sort of prude,far from it and I don’t write this with any
malice my friend,just a wee bit concerned that as I said,
people scroll past and don’t get your relevant point.
Peace Always
Links
http://indyref2.scot/unnamed-sources
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9382/jeane-freeman-scotland-has-obligation-move-towards-independence
https://abrutherford.wordpress.com/2016/09/19/scottish-independence-a-pragmatic-choice/
Two articles of interest on same page, one of oil & gas and one on pensions
http://www.scottishfinancialnews.com/10176/payday-firm-cfo-lending-forced-to-pay-34-million-redress/
https://theferret.scot/trump-golf-course-attack-nature/?mc_cid=bfa217c7c7&mc_eid=a8720c25ac
https://www.fginsight.com/news/hard-brexit-could-knock-175-off-lamb-prices-15269
http://evolvepolitics.com/tory-cuts-mean-all-the-firefighters-in-greater-manchester-are-being-sacked/
Tory-councillor-doesnt-think-rape-should-be-recorded-as-an-offence
http://archive.is/UT4IA
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/09/19/hidden-britain-same-private-production-company-behind-both-bbc-and-ch4-anti-corbyn-programmes/
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160919/1045464920/britain-airstrikes-syrian-army.html
http://citywire.co.uk/money/sir-nick-macpherson-becomes-a-saint/a948884
https://www.rt.com/uk/359845-cameron-iraq-abuse-soldiers/
O/T
I see SKY ‘news’ are running a rule britannia puff piece this morning from Rosyth about the two aircraftless carriers for which we have no use. What is interesting is that the SKY presenter managed a whole item without once mentioning the ‘S’ word, or the even more impressive and actually useful new Forth Bridge being built on budget and on time by the SCOTTISH Government, right next to where he stands.
Shhhhh. Don’t mention Scotland.
Do people in England really fall for such nationalistic rule Britannia p*sh from SKY??
How many farmers voted leave?
https://www.fginsight.com/news/hard-brexit-could-knock-175-off-lamb-prices-15269
https://theferret.scot/trump-golf-course-attack-nature/?mc_cid=bfa217c7c7&mc_eid=a8720c25ac
http://evolvepolitics.com/tory-cuts-mean-all-the-firefighters-in-greater-manchester-are-being-sacked/
Tory-councillor-doesnt-think-rape-should-be-recorded-as-an-offence
http://archive.is/UT4IA
Just thinking about when Alec Salmond made his personal comment about once in a generation, which Yoons love to misquote …
At that moment in history, Scotland had just been promised Home Rule with guaranteed membership of the EU!
Demographics alone will see Scotland independent in three years
‘Do people in England really fall for such nationalistic rule Britannia p*sh from SKY??’
Yes. Yes some of them do.
Just clocked this on Wings twitter feed and had to double take just to make sure. It could of course be one of them fake accounts, but a fairly idiotic tweet regardless.
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/778012704606912512
Apparently the new chief meeja officer for the Scottish Office hasn’t quite grasped the point of the whole media/comms/liaison part of the job.
‘Let’s not have the independence referendum anniversary so close to a full moon next time.’
This fella is meant to communicate with the Scottish public, which he apparently holds in some contempt. Maybe insulting a fair sized chunk of those you are meant to be communicating with isn’t the best approach hmmmm?
Just a thought like.
Last lot of links vanished. Might appear later.
@Robert Louis
Regarding Rosyth I spotted this a couple of days ago.
https://twitter.com/mclaughlin_les/status/777452292245168129
https://twitter.com/mclaughlin_les/status/777454811356794880
We need to nail this Greece comparison.
Most of the new countries which joined from the East have had years of growth and rising prosperity. Greece is not typical of EU countries. It joined the single currency when it did not have the economic strength to do so. It was run by politicians who put their own and party interests above their peoples ( that does have a familiar ring ). Their defence spending was ridiculously high. But first and foremost – nobody paid their taxes.
I have 100% sympathy for ordinary Greeks who did not create the situation. I have contempt for banksters here, and for millionaire ex politicians. I have sympathy for Syriza too. But you cannot have public services if someone else is always expected to pay the bill.
Scotland has no poorer a record of obeying tax laws than anywhere else in the UK. The very notion of Scotland becoming Greece mark 2 is insulting. It is patronising in the extreme to suggest that we need England to oversee our tax collection.
Membership of the Euro did not cause the Greek situation. At its simplest reduction, it was tax evasion. So how is that even relevant to Scotland?
Nana:
Good morning sweetie pie,lots to tell you,I’ve no been very well for a couple of days and that wife of mine phoned the doctor out without me knowing (Sneaky).
Anyway Nana,he gave me mair morphine and steroids Nana Steroids,I will never get into the Olympics noo!I would never be able to pass the drug test.Wait tae a’ tell ye this, I was
going upstairs last night and I met myself coming doon them.Thats how fast I am now,Smallaxe Farah,or Bolt people will be calling me,a’could of been in that team GB thingy Nana. I could have been a contender!
Thanks for the links Nana, I can have my coffee now xx
Peace and Love to You and Your Hubby
@Al Dossary
I’m not sure the grey vote is easy to persuade to do anything, but as somebody brought up old style and taught to respect my elders, that kinda feels it like it puts me and my elders on the same page, at least to begin with.
Most old folks I know, and have known, are as sharp as razor to see issues in black and white, but it’s the slow transition from stubbornly holding one view to holding another view where the “less is more” attitude pays dividends. You can introduce someone to an idea, even an idea they don’t like, but then the best policy is to stand back and give them time and space to mull it over.
I don’t think pensioners will be moved by the promise of a few pence on their pensions. even Gordon Brown in 2014 didn’t spook them outright, he just played to fears they already had. But once they see the bigger Brexit picture of Banks, financiers and pension funds booking their tickets to anywhere which isn’t Brexit, people are going to wonder why, and begin to fret about their money being left behind in a dusty old bank vault forgotten about in all the upheaval.
Further to my post above, maybe the Scottish Governemnt could sponsor a summit on European banking and pensions post Brexit, and invite European legislators, Bankers and investors to Scotland for a high profile, open door head scratching exercise about Finance which the wider UK simply could not ignore. If we expect Scotland to be a financial capital, then be bold, and start being one. Establish a precedent for new emerging trends in European/Global finance breaking from cover right here in Scotland.
@Smallaxe
‘Thats how fast I am now,Smallaxe Farah,or Bolt people will be calling me,a’could of been in that team GB thingy Nana. I could have been a contender!’
😀
That’s the keyboard buggered.
@smallaxe
Was wondering if that was where your name came from.
I play piano, organ, bass guitar, violin,viola,pipes. Etc played all over the world. Popes,presidents and the crowned heads of Europe.
The Tories and Scottish media are precious wee souls right enough, Ms Wells gives the impression butter wouldn’t melt & aw that.
Just a wee bit Teutonic in the lack of appreciation of satire and focus on perceived offensive comment, but fair do’s.
We all know Tories never say anything offensive and their broadcasters would be all over it if they did.
(No Call Kaye would – surely .. No?)
@ Macart:
I answered your post at 8:51 and a half,it went in that fast
you missed it!
Seriously though,there is some superb posts this morning,thank
goodness everybody isn’t as daft as me. 🙂
Peace Always to Everyone
@Smallaxe
I’m not going to be able to qualify for the Olympics myself now after reading your comment.
Message in off topic for you
Greece created Greece’s problems. It was corrupt bad management. Buying too much weaponry from Germany and borrowing from German banks to do it. Mismanagement assisted by Morgan, Sachs who cooked the books to join. Greece has a problem with Turkey, historical conflicts. Greece as a EU member has protection from Turkey. One of the reasons the Greeks support EU membership.
It was Greece regime former mismanagement which was the cause of many of the problems. Germany was complicit but as an individual Gov not as EU collective membership. There had to be different Greece governance by giving loans at lower interest rate over a longer period. The Greek people voted to stay in the EU, so had to be accommodated. The wealthy in Greece were not paying taxes and taking £Billions out of Greece to deposit in other economies. London UK etc. Fright took flight. New governance in Greece is helping to solve the problems.
Scotland/UK mismanagement is the result of Westminster/Unionist mismanagement. Corruption, fraud and cooking the books forever. Scotland did not vote for it. They voted to keep the Tories out and still got shafted big time by Westminster Unionists devious criminal crooks and fraudsters. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Still going on. Cameron the worst PM in history. Osbourne a manipulating liar embezzling £Billions of public funds, on wasteful projects, for the Tories and their associates. In contracts, consultancies and banking fees etc. Sanctioning and starving the vulnerable. Despicable. Elected to protect NHS/Education and cut the debt have done neither. They make people sick and cause mental health problems.
Saw this and thought of STU 🙂
http://careerssearch.bbc.co.uk/jobs/job/Senior-Broadcast-Journalist-Reporter-BBC-Aberdeen/17882?jobboard=indeed&c=organic
The Ideal Candidate:
A track record of breaking stories, and the ability to originate and develop programme ideas.
A high standard of editorial judgement, writing ability and production skills, based on substantial broadcast journalism experience.
First class news judgement and in-depth knowledge of the Scottish news agenda and of Scotland’s political system and institutions, and issues affecting the area served by Aberdeen.
The Tories are 3rd rate rejects. They sanction vulnerable people and make folk sick. A coarse, complete disgrace.
Vambomarbeleye:
Well done, I wish I was as adept as yourself with instruments, I love all kinds of music.My name is a different matter altogether, I was telling some friends over on O/T how that was given to me but it was going in in installments,so I decided to write it offline and put it in one big lump so that people who are not interested can just scroll on by. I will put it in asap. I don’t want to ruin this excellent thread this morning,so I’ll shut up now.
Peace Always my friend
Mayyybeee..Teresa May’s ‘global measures ‘ to solve refugee crisis would mean ensuring nobody survives to become refugees..if they had nuked (insert ancient city) that would have done it.
STOP WAR, WE ALL HAVE BLOOD ON OUR HANDS, GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION.
@geeo says: 20 September, 2016 at 1:11 am:
” … During indyref1, it was oft stated that if the Tory government (Cameron) had asked for clarification advice on Scotland’s EU status after a YES vote, then Scots could have voted YES or NO with a huge factual answer on a very key topic during the indyref build up.”
I would imagine the reason the EU, (or considering the anti-Scotland Barroso was then EC president and the EC are the civil servants of the EU). that it was probably the EC and not the EU, per se, who refused to deal with other than the actual member state.
However, here is a thought for you :-
Every Scot is an EU citizen. As such I would speculate, that as a citizen, each and every Scot thus has the inalienable right to get answers to their questions from the EC and, if they do not have that right, then both the EU and the EC are in deep trouble with their entire citizenship. It is, after all, reputedly a democracy and has written legal charters for human rights.
Which opens up a whole new perspective for getting information, and EU rulings, from both the EU and their Civil Servants in the European Commission.
Remember also that the EU has no rules, mechanisms or legal precedent for the removal of citizenship from any member or member state. The member or state must request to leave and there are a whole host of rules & regs to make doing so difficult – as the UK Government has found out. There can be no action until the UK formally requests permission to leave.
This is, of course, the whole basis behind the present need for the United Kingdom Government being required to trigger Brexit.
That means the only way for the United Kingdom, (not Britain as the idiotic Britnats claim), to leave the EU is by the UK’s own request to leave because the EU has no legal way to expel them/us.
This would indicate the EU must legally give straight answers to an individual EU citizen’s request for clarification on any EU matter whatsoever.
Anyone know if there is any such mechanism for individual EU citizens to request answers?
Breeks 5:45 am
3 posts haven’t appeared now… 4th time lucky.
Pull yerself up man.?
More taxes are raised in Scotland pro rata than the rest of the UK. £54Billion. £515Billion is raised in the UK. Take £54Billion from £515Billion = £461Billion. Divide by 11 (11/12 of the U.K. Pop) = £42Billion (pro rata) is raised in the rest of the UK. £12Billion more is raised in Scotland pro rata. (Without Oil) No an equal tax system. More is raised in Scotland. It make the rest of the UK better off more disposible money in their pockets.
The rest of the UK borrows and spends £75Billion + a £20Billion black hole ( growth that never happens in the corrupt accounts) = £95Billion. Scotland pays back nearly £4Billion on the deficit but doesn’t borrow or spend it. Making Scotland worse off by comparison. There is a £10Billion of unidentified expenses on the Scottish accounts. What does that represent? The reasons why accounts are done is to identify expenses.
Scotland raises £54Billion and spends £58Billion. The rest of the £13Billion deficit is Trident nearly £1Billion, nearly £1Billion could be saved on a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. nearly £4Billion on debt repayments Scotland doesn’t spend. £4Billion? on Oil revenues losses (because of high UK gov taxation) £3Billion on tax evasion. HMRC not fit for purpose. Total £13Billion.
Scotland pays it’s own (UK) pensions and welfare benefits £16Billions. Scotland gets £25Billion block Grant. That pays for all Scotland services. £5Billion less than 2010. Scotland pays nearly £4Billion for Defence. Nearly £4Billion on loan repayments it doesn’t borrow. – £49Billion. Capital payment? What happens to the rest? No patrol boats to control the shore etc, stopping illegal drug shipments. They are destroying communities and society. They are a greater threat to the West than ‘terrorism’. Theresa May can’t walk and talk at the same time. The height of nonsense.
Davidb,
Just to add to your point.
With all the debt that Greece has, I haven’t heard one mention anywhere that they shouldn’t be independent.
Hypocrisy is rife amongst the Yoons.
I had a post in mind but given that I’m a SNP Vile Cybernat Ultra Extremist Sweaty Sock and Thick Mindless Cult Follower I didn’t want to say anything which could cause any offence to someone I don’t know whom I didn’t intend to
Djae think it’s coz I’m SNP…. Cannae be just that, kin it?
No offence intended by the letters SNP
Please don’t report me
Nana:
Reply to you on O/T.
Dr Jim,Gestapo on way shred everything,hide radio,the’ve just left my place,tore out my fingernails,but I told them nothing,
Nothing! the birds are flying east,wink wink!NPS(code).
Peace Always
I agree with Ken@ 7.45am
Let us not split the SNP vote in the council elections.
I’m getting this in now too Ken. We must learn the lesson from the Holyrood elections when the Greens were calling for a split vote. That did us a lot of good (sarcasm)!
The Tories are gleeful about a minority SNP Gov. and remind us constantly. Helped the ego of Patrick Harvey but not our ambitions for Independence.
So SNP all the way and then after Independence we can discuss the EU and other parties.
Please don’t endanger our Independence.
@ProudCybernat
Yes those are the images we want to remind my generation of.
When you are reminded of how bad it was in the early 70s and our fears that is was going to get worse and we were only saved by the EU and the oil, then remaining safe in the EU even though the oil has been blued has got to be an easier sell than independence versus the broad shoulders of the yUK
Lochside @ 10.11: liked your potted history of the 70s, which is pretty much my memory. The Establishment never changes but so many of us now have seen through its agents, the MSM/BBC.
Cummings used to draw Mick McGahey with a hammer and sickle scar and his depiction of Irish workers was simply racist. I heard Mick speak at a meeting in Motherwell Town hall during the miners’ strike and he was a great speaker.
Al Dossary: I like your script for working on pensioners. It contains items I’d never thought of. Think I’ll also mention the Queensferry Crossing and the new Southern General in Glasgow; on time and budget. Wot, no PPI timebomb?
Everyone can have a lightbulb moment when they finally see the light.
We’ve got a lot of work to do in the next two years, though.
Breeks:
re’ lost posts, I forget who it was who posted recently about
the same thing,maybe you saw it,if not he/she suggested that we use the”select all” feature or “copy” before submitting
comment,that way it saves having to write it out again.
Knowing my memory it may even have been yourself who suggested
it,if so my thanks and apologies.
Ach! That’s two concurrent posts just vanished into the on-line Ether. I’m giving up for the present.
Sheesh!
I used to, as a matter of course, always compose posts in a plain text editor with spell check and grammar corrections. Then after any changes I copied and pasted into Wings.
I may have to return to that way of posting again.
The main threat to Independence continues to be people focused on small politics instead of big politics.
E.g. I want a Socialist Scotland, I want a Green Scotland, I want a Left of Centre Scotland.
That is small politics
An Independent Scotland will be a country that will enable a Holyrood election that enables all of the above to be reflected. The key point being that iour political choice will not be swamped by Westminster dogma.
The SNP is a vehicle for major change and the broad church will divide after Independence to create a rainbow parliament.
If you chase two pigs at the same time you end up catching none.
For a very, very short time in the life of Scotlan please put Independence first and leave party politics for the long haul.
I cannot think of one issue pushed by all the parties ( and branches ) of Scotland that would not be easier to achieve than attaining Independence FIRST.
…or will it be small minds and small results?
Canadian view of events in Scotland. The world IS watching ….
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/scotland-referendum-brexit-1.3763308
I seem to recall a few weeks ago Ruth Davidson made a speech to the Tory faithfull in which she made reference to “Withdrawing her massive Johnson” and “having a post coital cigarette” about something or other
That’ll be just banter though eh, not offensive to anyone, how could it be she’s a Tory so it’s fine
Although I’ll get reported for repeating it coz I’m SNP
re Anne Lawrie at
19 September, 2016 at 2:59 pm
Better still to have an oldie and a teenager when it comes to influence and persuasion of soft no voters. The best of both worlds when it comes to persuasion, eh!! The head and heart, wisdom and passion, experience and desire.
If there are no teenagers in your family/circle of friends I am sure the local SNP (or other Indy) Youth Group could find a volunteer for tea and a chat and it is surprising how beneficial intergenerational get togethers can be. Weekly or monthly get togethers could also prove a boon to those who feel isolated and friendship could go a long way in changing viewpoints and votes.
Simply discuss issues as they come up in conversation and seek to find the flaws in their Indy beliefs. Try to get them to bring about their own conversion by getting them to amend the flawed views they held in 2014 ie those no longer supported by evidence and the mendacious statements that have been soundly rebutted by events over the past few years. Be gracious enough to let them try and pick holes in your beliefs but, if they find any, don’t overreact – no one is perfect.
This morning so far the tories are faux outraged at something or other. Tory Murdo is asking snp to tell them how to sort the brexit mess.
The bbc are calling us Jocks and the herald says we are living in bankrupt dystopian squalor. Plus Massie wants a grand unionists alliance to fight indyref2
Much scaredyness from the unionist press.
I’d best go clean up this squalor I didn’t know I was living in, anyone got magnifying glass?
Clootie says:
“The main threat to Independence continues to be people focused on small politics instead of big politics”
I completely agree. Scotland has the potential to be a vibrant successful country, that is all I need to know. Indy first, then democracy will decide what form Scotland takes.
I get really annoyed by calls of ‘we need to talk about the type of Scotland we want’. Bollocks! We need an independent Scotland, that is central to everything else.
In fact, I’m suspicious of anyone trying to push a particular post Indy direction before we even get started. They are either naive or subversive. Too much early policy making and we only offend and drive away particular sections of society.
Mac art 8.17
I have tweeted that Gardham tweet to my MSP. I have also e-mailed my MSP to express my disgust that we have to pay for being trolled and disrespected like this.
You can’t e-mail the Scotland office. Complaints have to be written and posted to Whitehall, and if you are not happy with decision, it’s referred back to the Scotland office!
What would be the point?
Surely the next referendum has to be held before I’m 60?
Doesn’t it? Can’t think of any other factors…
so that’s before December 2018
re brexit, I’ve kind of been pondering whether the UK might not attempt to actually support Scotland remaining in Europe and remaining within UK. They could then turn around and leave, and use us as their gateway to Europe?
Then we would have a fight on our hands.
Nana says:
“a grand unionists alliance to fight indyref2”
As in BetterTogetherToo? Yawn 🙂
I always liked how the term Tory was used in the American Revolution for those who remained loyal to the UK. Funny how in the Scottish Revolution, the UK and US meanings have merged.
IndyRef2 will be between Patriots and Tories. Sounds about right.
I am beginning to think Murdo has taken up trolling as his main profession or he has taken leave of what little sense he had.
The SNP have explained how they intend to make Brexit work. Scotland is staying in.
Yesterday we never had it so good in the Union of England with all the jobs they give us
Today we’re living in squalor which is the fault of the SNP
Fix this Brexit thing SNP says the Tories it’s all the fault of Sturgeons interference making life difficult for that poor Theresa May as she’s signing the UKs signature to the American TTIP deal which will benefit all the citizens of the UK who don’t need NHS hospital treatment in the future or Human Rights protected or Trade branding protections under the current EU laws which is why the EU rejected TTIP out of hand
I’ve lived abroad and I know what health care costs, the UK ordinary Joe public hasn’t got a scooby what’s about to come down the pipe from these Tories
But the Yoon faithfull will bend over and say Slap it into me now for I love it and blame Sturgeon later for not informing them
Todays scaremongering sometimes is tomorrows reality so I hope she scares the shit out of them so they’ll remember it
@Nana
Clocked that piece on Murdo and had to laugh at the ineptitude of representatives of central government asking how devolved government is going to solve their crisis. I think we should class such boneheaded interventions as a ‘Murdo Moment’ from now on. 😀 LOL
@Valerie
As I posted above, I don’t know if that was a tweet from Mr Gardham, but if so it was a complete howler of thing to say from a man in his position.
Murdo Fraser is just trolling,will say anything to try and get a reaction from those who support a free Scotland,
either following orders or through his own hatred of Scotland and its citizens,
a sad man,not to be mocked more to be pitied.
@Macart
Just taking a wee break from searching for the dystopian squalor to reply to you and guess what I found the squalor residing inside Murdo’s head. But he might have competition with Gardham coming up on the rear!
An ass and a nag’s ass, hard to say which is which,
HandandShrimp says:
“I am beginning to think Murdo has taken up trolling as his main profession or he has taken leave of what little sense he had.”
Panic. Think Lance Corporal Jones, “Don’t panic! Don’t panic!”
IndyRef2 is coming and, like with Brexit, they don’t know what to do.
Thing is, it’s all the Tories’ fault. They brought all this about. They undermined IndyRef2 with lies, they reneged on promises, they took an England centric stance, and they completely fcked up with Brexit.
The SNP put in a 2016 manifesto pledge. Nicola made a sensible suggestion that they should have a four country veto. It then all went wrong for the Tories.
Scotland voted for an SNP government and a pro Indy parliament. The Tories should accept the democratic will of the voters. If they can’t deliver Brexit with ESM, then IndyRef2 is the inevitable consequence.
As regard the Gardham tweet…it proves once again that the loyal unionist gets rewarded.
We are assured “balanced” and “fair” press releases from his office. At least it will save the other media pundits from having to spin as a mere cut and paste is all that is now required.
Dr Jim, me too.. I’ve probably deleted more comments than I’ve ever posted..lol.
As far as this garbage from wee Murdo Whatshisface is concerned I believe the response from the SNP went something like this: 😉
Dear Tory party,
Thank you so much for your kind letter and enquiry regarding our plans for Brexit.
Unfortunately we are not in any position, currently, to be able to help you out in this area. We are at present in deep negotiations with the E.U. regarding our CONTINUED presence withing the E.U.
As you can imagine the work we are doing to REMAIN within the E.U. is taking up most of our time so we do not really have any spare time to help you out with your self inflicted Brexit.
We remain convinced that through regular visits to your local yoga and hypnosis classes you will be able to figure out where you went wrong, eventually and also come to resolve your current predicament without any input from us.
Should you in fact still find that you need some assistance in this matter we do have a couple of names of people who will, we have no doubt, be only too happy to lend you a hand. The names are:
Kezia Dugdale c/o Labour branch office, Glasgow
Willie Rennie c/o Lib Dem branch office, somewhere in Scotland
sincerely yours
the SNP
handclapping says:
20 September, 2016 at 10:32 am
@ProudCybernat
“Yes those are the images we want to remind my generation of.”
I managed pubs in London in the early 70s,on bin collection days the binman would come in without fail and Demand a free pint for himself and the rest along with, at the least £5 or my bins were left full,on the street.
This practice was carried on not just to pubs but all business
and complaints to local councils went unanswered.
And as we see these days the London Mafia is not only still in
existence,but also much larger and more Powerful!
SNP/SNP ALWAYS is our only chance to escape their thieving,lying and be under no illusions,extremely dangerous
clutches.
Peace to All
Nana:
O/T battleaxe!if you have time.
Peace Always
Great.
Jake Berry MP now Ligger show about royal yacht. Even Toynbee is dissing it.
They want a commission to look into it.
FUCKING sick of this shit. Beyond the pale
May Cameron Airforce jet costs £800Million. The Tories now want another £Multimillion Royal yacht.
Vulnerable people are being sanctioned and starved and the NHS is being cut.
The Tories are despicable. Appalling.
Breeks says:
19 September, 2016 at 12:48 pm
I hear alarm bells ringing about the EU holding pen status which awaits us. Can we double check, and check again, whether this is holding pen status for Scotland, a UK Region which may or may not be exiting the UK, or holding pen status for a sovereign Scottish nation which will definitely be staying in Europe once the process of disentangling itself from the UK has been substantially complete.
Breeks it says for independent Scotland, we need to win indyref2 1St and before brexit completes to be in a holding area. So it’s a year timescale from article 50 being pressed.
http://www.scottishlegal.com/2016/07/01/brussels-insiders-reveal-plans-to-preserve-scotlands-eu-membership-in-event-of-independence/
I have also read that holding area could be Eea, until brexit completes.
Adapted to fit the UK, from the comments on a piece in the NYTimes:
In the politics of Westminster,Tory, Labour and LibDem, including their three Scottish branches, “so long as you are willing to lie with a straight face and sell your soul, accountability hardly ever catches up.”
Makes me think of names like Carmichael, Cameron, Mundell, Osborne, Blair, Straw, Brown and, more recently, Johnson, Gove, Davidson, May and so many more.
For many years, and certainly since Mgt Thatcher, the UK Government has suffered extensively from moral and ethical dry rot due to the conviction that the only way to manage fraud and corruption by politicians – and their employers in big business – is to lie, without ceasing.
The BIGGEST LIE is that Scotland is poor, always has been and always will be, and DEPENDS ALMOST ENTIRELY on England’s kindness and generosity for support.
This lie is universally believed throughout the UK, and particularly in Scotland, even, albeit residually, among some supporters of Scottish Independence.
In its current form, this lie states that Scotland spends more than it earns, has a fifteen billion pound deficit, and will never be able to pay off its debt.
Meanwhile, buried deep by UK government propaganda, the TRUTH is that Scotland’s energy assets alone, make Scotland one of the wealthiest countries on earth.
But this truth is not the root of Scotland’s Independence problem – it is instead THE FEAR OF LEAVING.
Remember the ever so slightly flawed poll and promotion of Ms Davidson last week?
Ooft! 🙂
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/778178151570608128
Does anyone else think that the UK Government is looking for a way to avoid Brexit – and is really just searching for a way to deflect/transfer the great political cost that will cause them ?
My thoughts on the OAP loyalty to *Britain*…
The generation that grew up in grinding poverty during the War,are the most privileged generation in British history.
They created the NHS and Welfare state…that they are reaping the benifits of.
They built 100,000s of Social homes with affordable rent…then 30 years later bought for peanuts.
They Nationalised all our important industries…Energy, Steel,Telecoms etc…then turned a quick buck selling them off.
They had massive employment opportunities, many working the same jobs for 30-40 years, with good pension schemes.
Workers within dying State industries received massive pay offs when redundancy came.
No generation before, or more importantly in future, will ever again have it quite so good.
It has just occurred to me – all 27 member states of the EU must know that Scotland is resource wealthy and would, if Independent, be at least as rich as Norway. The question is, in the context of Brexit, how will Scotland’s huge natural wealth influence the decisions of the EU.
Or, to put it another way, would the EU help Scotland become Independent?
When folk say there are 35% pensioners within the electorate are they including civil and military ‘retirees’, are they including thousands who cashed in their pensions during ‘privatisations of council services..if so it’s a misnomer..
@manandboy
Our mineral and resource rich country, has been clocked by the other 27 countries, never fear.
A good part of that is down to our two MEPs Ian Hudgen and Alyn Smith. Alyn has been around a good few branches, chatting and being questioned.
He is of the opinion the EU wants a good news story, and what better than us? You need to remember that very often the EU parliament members are often far more like the standard we see in the SNP, in terms of commitment and intellect.
They will have done their own research, they realise we have an abundance of natural wealth.
I will be voting for Alyn as Depute. The others are great, but Alyn sends a message that we are committed to the EU.
I don’t want to contemplate our country remaining in this disgusting corpse of a Union, OR outside the EU.
I have no time either for those who say they voted Yes last time, but don’t want any truck with the EU.
Independence outside the EU is of no use to this country. I sincerely hope those who have doubts grasp that.
Mrs May and her Westminster Tory mini private government are presented ON THREE FRONTS by major political, economic and constitutional forces, in Scotland, the EU and NI.
In addition, England is divided over Brexit 11:9 and both the Tory and Labour parties have serious divisions. Mrs May is doing what she wants, but not doing it very well, and does not enjoy secure support either in Parliament or in the country.
Mrs May looks, politically, like someone in deep water who has only just learned to swim.
Now if I was a bookmaker……
Thanks Undeadshaun 12:57
Had a very strong hunch that would be the case.
I have a similar hunch about another invisible line which Europe will not cross, that being where cordial discussions with Holyrood border on becoming formal agreements. Until we are independent or at least irreversibly committed to becoming independent, the law will formally recognise Westminster as speaking for us, and formal agreements with Holyrood will be premature and non-competent if signed. If we fight the law, the law will win.
It’s a sovereignty thing.
@Snode65…your arithmetic is a bit awry as is your analysis. ‘the generation that grew up in grinding poverty during the War,are the most privileged generation in British history’?? pardon me, but how can the generation, which has to be 80 years plus enjoy ‘grinding poverty’ and be the ‘most privileged?. Fact is that the war generation that VOTED to bring in the Welfare State are nearly all dead. Yes they reaped the deserved benefits for fighting a war against fascism and defeating the Tory ruling class in order to give their children and grandchildren free health, free education etc.
‘They created the NHS and Welfare state…that they are reaping the benifits of’. We all were Snodey boy until the Tories and their Labour mates started to dismantle it over the last 25years.
‘They built 100,000s of Social homes with affordable rent…then 30 years later bought for peanuts.’ Yes some did, but who initiated the legislation?…the Tories…elected by English votes. Scotland was only able to stop this sale of our people’s assets when we got an SNP run SG.
‘They Nationalised all our important industries…Energy, Steel,Telecoms etc…then turned a quick buck selling them off’. dITTO: The bastard tories, red and blue did that on the back of English votes. Many middle class and some working class tried to cash in on the crumbs from the Capitalist table.
‘They had massive employment opportunities, many working the same jobs for 30-40 years, with good pension schemes’….and your point is?….Shouldn’t that have continued?…You’re pointing the finger at the wrong people my friend. I have friends who got ‘lucky as you might see it and got good pensions. Others haven’t many are in manual jobs and working all the way into their 60s…a total joke. But whose fault is that?
‘Workers within dying State industries received massive payoffs when redundancy came’…and why shouldn’t they? was it their fault that they lost their jobs?
Or are you like the several tories on here who have posted images of rubbish piles from the media fabricated ‘Winter of Discontent’?…It’s ok for the incompetent fatcats and criminals who have run the British economy into a parlous state to continue to escape with their golden parachutes intact, but not the workers? Take a look around at the communities scarred by those redundancies and show me the wealth that those workers supposedly squirreled away.
No friend, you’re wrong, the old are not to blame, some are tory self seeking bastards, just like some young people. The problem is communication. The old, by and large depend on the newspapers and the BBC/STV axix of evil intent. Combined with conditioning through years of Brit Nat schooling and National Service (74 years and upward), yes it’s hard to break, but not impossible. Actions such as ensuring higher pensions and proper welfare benefits, plus free education and health(all based on residential qualification and /or Scottish citizenship) will win them over. But it must be costed and backed up with easy to understand facts. The real challenge is how we get this information over the cacophony of phony Brit lies.
I came across this over on Twitter about digitising the vote in Scotland. I’ll leave the link here as a wee thought provoker. 😉
https://yesdayscotland.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/lets-digitalise-a-scotland-referendum-10-top-reasons-to-shift-referendums-from-paper-to-digital-voting/
I think no matter what folks say digitising the votes in future must run with some credibility. Provided internet security can be ensured then I for one would welcome this idea.
I know not everyone has a computer/internet but that in itself would not be a major problem in my view. If anything it would, I think, be a minor irritation. After all most people who do not have internet live next to or close to someone who has.
Let’s not jump the gun and go over the top prematurely on the subject of promises of pensions comparable to those in other EU Countries.
I am not in possession of the relevant data but I would not be surprised if at least some of said countries require a significantly higher personal contribution to their State Pensions.
Before we go on the attack on this subject let us get our facts right otherwise the Bad Guys could come straight back at us saying we will raise NI Contributions to pay for it.
O/T
Anybody in need of a good laugh should put their coffee down well away from their keyboard.
According to the BBC Scotland web site Pathetic Quay’s Good Morning Scotland has been nominated for a National (i.e. UK) Award.
I suppose it could be worse it might have been Call KayE.
On the subject of BBC Scotland could Angus Robertson not ask a question at PMQs along the lines of – ‘While all other BBC Regions’ Web Sites are open to Comments that for Scotland does not allow Comments – WHY?’
On another tack I see that Farage flies a miniature Butcher’s Apron on his Euro Parly desk. Would it not be a wonderfully provocative if the SNP MEPs followed suit with miniature Saltires. Such an action would be sure to produce much hot air from the usual suspects together with predictably outraged media coverage.
Lochside…
My comment was not political in the slightest.
Both my parents, 76 and 82, and all my elderly relatives think this way… the British State has, in their opinion, been very good to them. From Glasgow slum to reasonable lifestyle in retirement. When I discuss Independence with them, they glaze over. Much to my horror, my mum voted Tory at the election because they were, “the only choice with *Union* in their name”.
Between their percieved Union benifits and SNP freebies, they are very content with things as they stand.
Lochside, I’m with you politically, but your wasting effort trying to convert this demographic.
Ok, as a City of London, finance worker. We ‘gamified’ Art 50 to death. Has to be on/before May 2017 (election pressure et al). Has to come with statement of ‘desires’, and met with ‘we will think about it’.
If desires insane (Single Market + No Free Movement) then its bad. If desires stepped (SM + Restricted Movement … or Restricted SM + Restricted Movement … or variations galore) then its up to EU to respond and it will be slow (27 to get agreement)
Honestly 2 Years is not – repeat NOT – enough in any sense whatsoever if its not very very simple and beaten out in the 1st 2 months. Even then the 2 years is excruciatingly tight.
98% certainty of ‘out of EU, unsettled’ and into ‘Free Trade’. Therafter it’s wait. N.b. thats a lot of mathematical statos in the office.
Finance industry apoplectic at moment, I assure you the C’of’L will start haemorrhaging businesses -> EU soon after ’50.
All Scot Gov need is idea of UK ‘desires’ to spot when they fire #indyref2 + some hint of EU stance of ‘not leave’ for Scotland.
All EU need to do is confirm Scotland ‘not leave’ and their stance (which will be open for all to see).
Yoons don’t want our most powerful in all the world powerless Parliament, they don’t want our MSPs they don’t want our MPs at Westminster coz they keep outvoting them on everything and telling them to shut up, they keep telling our powerless First Minister everything’s none of her business and to butt out
Then they say she’s got too much power and is a dictator
Then they complain about stuff she has no power over
And now that the Europeans have noticed this strange anomaly in Scotland The Yoons have decided what the EU says doesn’t count either
There’s a definite pattern here, Hmmn? let me think?
Arbroath 1320
Re on-line voting a hardware network already exists covering the whole country in the form of Lottery Machines.
All it would need would be to:-
Create the necessary software and make a few hardware modifications.
Send out Poll Cards the same size as the current Lottery Cards listing all the candidates in that constituency.
The software would contain details of the candidates in each constituency meaning that by reading the constituency code from the card it would record the vote against the appropriate candidate.
This would also allow one to record one’s vote at a terminal outwith one’s constituency.
No Poll Card – No Vote.
Security problems would have to be examined carefully and questions would be asked re the old Secret Ballot Chestnut. – why do the Polling Clerks write the voter ref. on the Ballot Paper Counterfoil and how the hell do they manage to produce all the statistics re voting patterns.
That sounds like a no bad ides Gus … mind you I’m no too sure how all the lottery players would take to having their lottery machines reconfigured for a day though! 😀
Theresa May is struggling to persuade United Nations dignitaries that Britain is not turning its back on the world after the Brexit vote raised misgivings among the international community
“The biggest threats to our prosperity and security do not recognize or respect international borders. If we only focus on what we do at home, the job is barely half done,” May is expected to tell the New York assembly of world leaders.
“We must recognize that for too many of those men and women the increasing pace of globalization has left them feeling left behind.
“The challenge for those of us in this room is to ensure our governments and our global institutions, such as this United Nations, remain responsive to the people that we serve.”
Yet despite her globalization-skeptic message, May was happy to host a glitzy reception at the consul-general’s New York residence for US companies including Amazon, Goldman Sachs, IBM and Morgan Stanley, in the hopes they would continue doing business with Britain after Brexit.
Yet banking giants Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley were found last year paying no tax. Morgan Stanley was particularly criticized for its zero tax bill despite its UK unit making $670 million profit. According to a Reuters investigation, the bank was able to get away with no corporate tax after reporting losses that financial year. The millions the bank made in Britain had been eliminated through inter-group transfers. Amazon’s British branch was also criticized in 2015 for only paying £11.9 million (US$15.4 million) in taxes despite its £34.4 million recorded profits.
Mrs May is saying that among other leaders,she must remain responsive to the people she serves.
Then she hops off to “a glitzy” dinner with reps of some of the biggest tax evaders anywhere.
Aye – people she serves, banisters and tax evaders.
RT.
Banisters – a predictive-text word meaning banksters
I don’t see Theresa May dragging this (triggering Article 50) on until May 2017. The Brexiters won’t allow that to happen. I reckon they’ll give her to the end of next January, at the very latest, and then if she’s still pathetically spouting ‘Brexit means Brexit’ they’ll create merry hell. She’ll also know that the EU wont look favourably on her dragging her heels (already scunnered with her) and further delays will have the World at large witnessing that they are a total bunch of incompetents. No plan A, B or C?
I’ll stick to my original prediction of being Independent by January 2019.
That’s over 2 years away. Just think of what’s happened in the last two short years – a lost IndyRef1; an upsurge in SNP (120,000) membership; the Labour Party, north and south of the border, decimated; Lib-dems on their knees; the Tories divided by Brexit and on the way to dragging us out all of the EU. Lots more of course.
The next couple of years could see massive changes here and in Europe such as the Scottish Borders and Northern Isles publicly allying with the UK (sneaky Unionist moves on this already); a possible United Ireland Referendum; rise in UKip membership (as the ‘colourful’ migrants don’t disappear); a split Labour Party (with some joining the Lib-dems) and right wing (anti-EU) Governments being elected in countries like France and even in Germany.
The oil price could shoot up again; the Tories could introduce even more horrendous, Dickensian policies; the UK economy could go into meltdown; the EU could show greater support for Scotland joining the EU (especially as THEY KNOW how rich we are) and some companies, such as in relation to the financial sector and the Japanese could start talking about relocating (to an Independent Scotland). The variables are manifold.
Whatever the case Nicola Sturgeon will have some job on her hands in trying to steer a course through this Unionist created debacle (plus many enemies) and will need everyone’s support.
More than anything she’ll have to prove, in simple language, that an Independent Scotland doesn’t have a ‘black hole’ at all and can, for example, support pensioners. If Cameron can basically say that 4 million Norwegians (actually 5 million) are doing well with the oil price, as is, at the moment, Nicola should voice this too (quoting Cameron).
She should also outline that we don’t have control of many economic levers such as Corporation Tax; the amount of money that we’ll save in being Independent (Trident / UK debt interest etc); the level of Scottish exports leaving from English ports and that a great deal of our tax revenue is / will still be going to the Treasury, all of which affects our GDP. Etc, etc, etc.
And then there’s the Scottish renewable energy sector. Does Nicola have any information with regard to this that she can share with us? As an example, I’ve just heard that a speaker (who?) at the GG event on Sunday talked about the Scottish renewable energy sector. He highlighted that Westminster is doing it’s utmost to scupper this in Scotland and asked the audience if they knew why they were doing that. He then went on to quote oil revenue figures over the last forty years and said that the revenue from RE would make that look like coppers (or words to that effect).
O/T I’ve left an apology re. the GG event on the last thread.
……………………………………….
@ Breeks says at 5:45 am …. ”Let p’s not work alone this time around. Let’s get YES2 speaking to our friends in Europe. Let us ask the EU to actively back us. Just imagine if the EU was perhaps to host a big summit here in Scotland; lots of big fish from the EU making constructive news headlines right here in Scotland, and supported by a press core of pan-European journalists and broadcasters.
With such powerful friends properly briefed abour Scotland’s predicament and how our voice is muted by hostile UKOK propaganda, with European help maybe we can give the BBC a run for its money.
Imagine the Express tearing its hair out as Scotland showcases itself to the whole of Europe, and Scotland’s leaders mingle with European leaders, forging ties and friendships while the rest of the U.K. is buttoning up its duffle coat and stocking up on paraffin and tinned goods for life after Brexit. Never mind two saltires by the fireplace, imagine the saltire sharing the stage with 27 other national flags, and no Union Jack to be seen.
Ask not what we can do for Europe, but we should be asking what Europe can, and might actually want to do for us, and what we can achieve when we work together.”
…………………………………
Great post Breeks. We know that Nicola has been forging links with European leaders, so let’s go right over the biased media and corrupt, lying politician’s heads by inviting them to Scotland. Maybe Nicola is working on that right now? Who knows?
Great idea, especially taking into account that (wee, daft, poor) Scotland with 1% of the EU population (27 countries) is its number one oil supplier and 2nd most prolific gas supplier – contributing 25% of Europes tidal energy, 25% of wind power, 10% of wave energy, over 60% of EU oil production (largest oil reserve in the EU) and 33% of the EUs total hydrocarbon production.
It begs the question what exactly has England been contributing to the EU? Anyone out there have the facts?
O/T Brain family to stay in Scotland
https://twitter.com/IBlackfordSNPMP/status/778233395813974020?lang=en-gb
Having a quiet wee chuckle here that the BTL comments start off speculating about persuading the stubborn grey vote to vote Yes, and we’ve now moved on to the subject of digital voting…
Sounds a bit like one of Baldricks cunning plans… Or is it just me? Lol
havent read all the posts as yet but I’ll leave this just in case nobody has posted previously
http://www.thenational.scot/…/rally-cry-to-reboot-the-yes-c…
Just read on Twitter that the Brain family can stay in Scotland.
https://twitter.com/AlexSalmond/status/778234105511157760
Excellent news for the family and everyone who has been supporting them. Just a shame they were put through this unnecessary hell by a government that has no heart, no soul and no understanding!
The Brains can stay! Does my heart good to hear it.
Wee Davie’ll be along soon to claim the credit, but withoot the Brains.
Now the Brain family can stay in Scotland unchallenged by the horrendous animals that pass as politicians/civil servants in London how long will it be before wee Willie Winkie, wee Ruthie the Lettle tankette commander and wee Kez leader of the autonomous Labour party in Scotland all start laying claim that it wiz them that won it for the Brain family? 😛
On reading this:
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/09/19/germany-and-the-eu-cant-afford-to-drive-a-hard-bargain-over-brexit/
I just had to disagree with the writer that Herr Roth was offering the UK a good deal.
But then special status could be taken to mean something like being put in “special measures” so that special status could be that of Pariah State.
All the very best to the Brain Family; finally you can call Scotland your home !
Apologies for the nonsense that is the GB state system and the hell the GB state systems put you through.
I too suffered a similar situation and know what its like to not feel wanted in a country that you have called home for umpteen years.
Big state is not beautiful, or clever .. ever.
What do you all think of this idea? Viable? If so it would be absolutely brilliant for us.
‘Lawyer presses case for annual ground rent system to reduce taxes and answer the economic questions surrounding independence.’
‘A SCOTTISH independence-supporting lawyer has been touring the country promoting a public revenue system that would reduce personal and indirect taxation and substantially increase people’s disposable income.
Graeme McCormick, who owns Conveyancing Direct, developed the Annual Ground Rent (AGR) method after the independence referendum debate, when Unionists constantly undermined the economic case for Scotland going it alone.
He told The National: “I thought the economic argument for independence, although it was robust, obviously failed to persuade enough people. Regardless of Brexit or anything else like that, the arguments against independence will still be directed at us, no matter what the economic position is in Scotland. I wanted to try to develop a system of public revenue which could answer these questions and successfully defend against these attacks – one not subject to the volatility of global markets, or the price of oil, or which would result in Scotland having to pay higher interest rates for the public purse to get money to invest.
“It’s a system that derives money from our land and the more I looked into it I found, astonishingly, that you could return a large amount of money to people by reducing taxation.
“Using it would encourage more of the ‘haves’ who didn’t vote the last time to say ‘there’s something significant in this for me’, apart from being of benefit to an independent Scotland as well.”
AGR is calculated by dividing Scotland’s land by the desired amount of public expenditure, and putting it into four categories – rough grazing, woodland, arable and urban. Home or land owners calculate their own AGR by multiplying the area of their space by the land type rate and would make their return online to Revenue Scotland, either yearly or by instalments.
McCormick pointed out that most people live and work in urban areas, where most public amenities are sited. Because of their intensive use they require more management, repair and replacement, but they also create greater wealth.
The urban rate would apply to houses and gardens in urban areas and buildings in rural settings, with liability for common property div-ided by the number of owners, while landowners would be able to recover the AGR from their tenants.
Revenue Scotland would carry out spot checks for inaccurate or dishonest filings, and transparency would be assured with everyone’s return on a public register.
McCormick gives the example of someone on average earnings of £26,500, who currently pays income tax and national insurance of £4,400; council tax on an average-priced property at £1,169; water rates of £417; road tax £200; and £4,943 in VAT, making a total of £11,129.
By comparison, someone living in an average urban house would pay £1,120 – a saving of £10,009.
McCormick says income tax could cease to exist, along with inheritance, business and council taxes and VAT.
There would be no adverse effect on the value of people’s homes or business premises and they would know how much they owed at the start of each year.
Big landowners would likely offload uneconomic land that did not provide sufficient income to pay the AGR, and it would be in their interests to develop, diversify and farm any that they retained.
McCormick believes AGR’s biggest selling point is its simplicity: “The bureaucracy attached to it is miniscule in comparison to HMRC. It’s such a simple way to gather public revenue – people would do it themselves and you wouldn’t need anyone official to estimate it.
“And if people are dishonest with their returns there would be spot checks with a significant penalty if they weren’t being honest about it.”
http://www.thenational.scot/news/lawyer-presses-case-for-annual-ground-rent-system-to-reduce-taxes-and-answer-the-economic-questions-surrounding-independence.22523
Is it beyond the realms of possibility, that the EU extend the 2 years to three (since UKs head firmly up its own arse with no real Brexit plan) if westminster agreed to trigger A50 before, say, May or even Christmas?
O/T
Have to say it; Obama talking absolute ‘hypocritical bollocks’ in his latest speech on sky news.
Try to fit peaceful Scotlands peaceful aspirational democratic needs into that load of garbage.
Statesman ???
@ Arbroath1320 says at 1:13 pm …. ”If only the U.K. had the balls to explain Brexit like this BEFORE the referendum vote!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2YkbO2IaWY
Thanks for that Arbroath. Kind of dispels the ‘thick Mick’ stereotype that Westminster and the media try to beam into our brains. That young Irish girl should be running for T May’s job.
Shame too that no one told the English electorate, who seem to be more frightened of muslims than people from EU countries, that as EU Nationals are dispelled from England they’ll be replaced (job vacancies) by individuals from Commonwealth countries, such as India and Pakistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Commonwealth_of_Nations
……………………..
Fabulous news that that the Brain family will be staying with us!
……………………..
Tommy Sheppard to my mind the best candidate for SNP Depute Leader.
‘VIDEO: SNP Depute Leadership Interview with Tommy Sheppard.’
http://www.thenational.scot/politics/video-snp-depute-leadership-interview-with-tommy-sheppard.22584
I think you may find this quite interesting ahundredthidiot.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
It comes from here:
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html
I would also just mention that Greenland took three years to get out of the E.U. Remember Greenland is part of Denmark but they voted to stay out of the E.U. whilst Denmark remained in. So on the basis of how Greenland fared I’d say that WM’s hopes being out of the E.U. within two years is rather hopeful at the very least.
@ Petra (glad to see you back)
Read the Nationals article, may be a hard sell but it has some value if enough can be persuaded.
Ruth and her rabid divisions wont like it though.
Imagine being Ruth Davidson on “lotto election night”, thinking she has won 5.6 million, then finding out she has “won” Scottish independence instead….?????
I loved the wee bit where it was pointed out what the top two searches on Google were the day after the referendum Petra. 😛
1. What does leaving the E.U. mean?
2. What is the E.U.?
Is it any wonder they are in such a mess dan saff when this is the sort of top searches the day AFTER the E.U. referendum 😀
O/T
From Derek Bateman
“A country denied the ability to run its own economy is blamed for being bankrupt by the authority which exercises those macro economic powers over it. The British Treasury pulls our wings off and then laughs when we can’t fly.
One of the underlying aspects of the debt is that we are paying not just for Scotland’s borrowing and spending but for Westminster’s too. This is a debt over which Scots have no direct control and stands at nearly £1.7 trillion. We pay a population share”
It really irks me DMH whenever I hear broadcasters go on and on about our £15 Billion black hole. They are obviously ignorant and incompetent. The so called black hole is made up in a large part, as I understand it, by our “population share” of Westminster infrastructure projects such as Crossrail, London super sewer, London underground upgrades, HS2 etc as well as good old TRIDENT!
Now as everyone well knows I am no economist but even I can figure out that NONE of these projects benefits the vast majority here in Scotland so in an independent Scotland all that “population share” would disappear completely. This would result in something like £11 Billion disappearing from our alleged black hole.
In reality I believe an independent Scotland would be starting out with something like £4 Billion “black hole” of which even that figure may very well be less.
Nice to see that they’ve got their visas at last:
McBrains for the Highlands..! 😉
Gus & Arbroath.
Cards can be lost, stolen, ‘borrowed’ or duplicated.
Bio-metrics would be better.. but, even if a fail-safe system for getting votes into the system were found they could still be subjected to post entry fiddling of the database.
The best system I can think of is one where each voter can go and look at how he voted anytime he or she wants to. Obviously using the same ID/password/bio-metrics used for voting, to peruse their registered vote.
That way, any difference in voting would be seen by the voter themselves and appropriate action taken.
Still does not absolutely rule out fiddling, e.g. a true vote database could be available for perusal by voters and a faked vote database maintained for election result calculations but a system such as that would need to be institutionally supported.
By chance (I’m lolling on MY CHAIR!!! in the dining room as the anaesthetic wears off following a trip to the dentist, idly surfing the telly channels) I came across those two veritable Unionist dinosaurs, Pants On Fire Carmichael and Andra Neil, both of whom look as though they are living off more than their fair share of the fat of their Unionist land, locking horns on BBC2’s two hour coverage of the Lib Dem Tea Party at Brighton. 8 MPs, and the afternoon was given over to them by a broadcaster which completely ignores 56 of our democratically elected representatives.
T Rex Neil was enjoying himself bating the dewlap quivering Carmichael as the disgraced former SoS tried to sell the pup of a second Brexit Referendum, once Maggie May and the Three Brexiteers had agreed a Brivorce settlement with the 27. (plus one, us?)
Carmichael, who looked as though the arduous trip from the North to deepest South had taken its toll, made Mundell blitherings look like calmness itself.
He argued that once the terms of the split were known the final decision should rest with the people, in the form of a second Brexit Referendum.
It was clear that Neil is now a Brexit convert, and that he had little time for the bluster and bluff of yer man.
Not Carmichael’s best outing on telly.
Are we to assume that Carmichael is now backing a second Scottish Independence Referendum?
After all, we Scots now know that a vote for No in 2014 was not a vote for the status quo, as some of the other Uncle Tom, Marr’s contributors tried to infer on his BBC2 mockumentaries.
The VOW, the Scotland Act, Frigates on the Clyde, and Rosyth, Civil Service jobs moved to Crawley, dragged out of the EU against our will, Syrian Friendly Fire.
Surely Carmichael’s argument about a second Brexit Referendum applies to our Independence Referendum?
Article 50 negotiations will take two years, so Carmichael was postulating that a second Brexit Referendum could be held in 2019.
Well two years have elapsed since our Referendum.
Is he now backing a second Indyref, now that the Scottish Public know what a pile of lies, treachery, and EVEL, which have been foisted upon us by his Better Together TeamrUK mates?
Alistair Carmichael backs Indyref2 ?
I’m positive that we’d lose YES votes with that headline. Shut up Jack, take a Neurofen, and have a nap.
Some may observe that Andrew Neil comes across on occasion as a smug wee Cnut, but not I.
Anyone who wants to better understand deficits and the essential role they play in the modern economy, this is one of the best explanations I have seen…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d57M6ATPZIE&feature=youtu.be
Shows why a sovereign currency is essential.
Petra
Read the article and it on the face of it look’s like a really good idea.
Especially when the “Will you be raising taxes or cutting services to fund Scotland” barb is deployed.
I would love to hear “neither we are doing it differently and introducing a land tax”.
But the question that occurred to me was what happens with council owned land,and especially what happens to land that’s privately owned but publicly maintained?
EG…..Some privately owned buildings and land are handed over to Historic Scotland, they never own the property but are charged with the maintenance of it.
The owners can in some case’s still live there and have input into what fundraising arrangements are made to keep THEIR property viable.
These estates are not only huge but many of them are also urban so therefore would potentially attract the highest tax rates.
So I am wondering in this system who will be paying?
After viewing STV programmes on the STV player over the past few days I get the impression that STV is following down the BBC route i.e. subtly biasing their reports. For example,
A) referring to Statoil as a large Norwegian oil company and ignoring the fact it is state owned (nationalised to us), hence their ability to still benefit from the extraction of oil from the North Sea whilst the UK Treasury bleats about the loss of taxable income, and
B) failing to acknowledge the differential wording of questions in a survey drawn on to produce a claim that Ruthie is more highly regarded than Nicola (you know who I mean).
Ignorance can be no excuse in either case as the facts are well known regarding Statoil and there were more than sufficient Twitter feeds in addition to a Wings report on the latter to demonstrate the claim will not hold up under scrutiny.
So does this mean that dastardly Daisley is frustrated due to his inability to vent his spleen on Twitter? Is he intent on getting his revenge?
Don’t take the last two questions seriously unless you can supply some evidence to support my speculation.
Folks, sorry for the blatant advert… but the Glasgow Green Wings Special pack has been updated, extended – and is now available by post! The Ultimate Wings pack includes:
– A splendid Wings Over Scotland 5’x3? flag
– A Vile Cybernat T-shirt (your choice of size)
– A Vile Cybernat 10oz mug
– A Wings Over Scotland bar blade bottle opener
– A Vile Cybernat glossy A2 poster
– TWO Wings Over Scotland static cling window stickers (40mm x 260mm)
– FIVE EU-Saltire static cling window stickers
– FIVE I’m No Leaving EU A4 posters
– A6 I’m No leaving EU postcard
– A Vile Cybernat 38mm badge
– A Wee Blue Book 38mm badge
– A Wee Black Book 38mm badge
– A Yes #Indyref2 38mm badge
– An EU-Saltire 38mm badge
– An EU-Yes 38mm badge
– An ayeMail badge
– ayeMail update leaflet
A snip at £25 delivered to your door!
http://www.ayemail.scot/store/?model_number=I2G-WD
Digital voting…..lovely
That would rule out about 50 Yoons just in my street alone
lovely
Although very happy for the Brain family my heart goes out to Jason & Christy Zielsdorf and their five children. This family came from Canada and invested time, money and effort in running a small business.
The Home Office also ordered them to leave the country.
These are people Scotland needs.
Versaille Declaration, 1919, tae the Edinburgh Declaration, 2019.
Soons awricht, tae me.
Sorry if this has been posted before.
I came across this on Twitter. It appears to come from someone who claims to be:
Wind farm sceptic, father of four sons, accountant, British and Scottish, optimistic realist.
Before reading his wee list I strongly suggest you are sitting down, have no hot cups of liquid handy, have nothing throwable within easy reach. 😀
https://twitter.com/dmck52/status/777992297183141897
=====================================================
To be fair Chick I think using the internet makes sense. The vast majority, not all I know, of voters have some sort of internet access, and could use that to vote. After all we all receive our voting cards through the post. We could input our details from that into the voting system to vote/check our vote was accepted/correct.
I do agree that whatever system was introduced it would have to be institutionally supported. By doing the vote electronically it would cut down on the hours of inane shite spewed out by BBC et al whilst waiting for the results to come in. The results from an electronic count should be available in fairly short order compared to the current brain numbing counts in my view.
I’m with you here Liz regarding the Zielsdorf family. However, now that the Home Office has been given a richt guid kicking over the Brain family I’d hope something similar can now be achieved for the Zielsdorf’s. After all as you say they run/ran a small shop. In fact if memory serves it was the ONLY one in the areas for miles. They were serving their community. I still hold out hope for them to be given a right to stay.
Look out Home Office a richt guid kicking MkII is heading yer way! 😀
@smallaxe.
My post at 04.24 was simply middle of the night, sleep deprived,pain fuelled attempt at disconnected humour.
Post at 04.41.
Rather than an angry rant at the end of the post, that was more an emphasis of using their own bluffs against them.
Please excuse me, never get more than 3 hours sleep in sny given 24 hour period due to medical reasons.
As you might say…
Peace love and Dreams of sleep….!
Hurrah for small victories great news that The Brain family can stay,absolutely ridiculous that they were put through this ludicrous nonsense in the first place.
Stupid UK.
From what I’ve read, the Annual Ground Rent scheme seems entirely rational and fair, so will automatically incur the rather of the big feudal landowners. The beauty of it is, it seems to be self-financing and forestalls Bitter Together black hole/subsidy arguments. Whether the SG feels it would be too revolutionary and that they will have enough on their plate with Brexit/Indyref2 remains to be seen.
Arbroath1320: whenever anyone mentions the mythical £15 Billion black hole I will point out the utter incompetence of WM running up a debt of £1.6 Trillion, despite having control of all the levers of the economy and complete access to all the wealth of our oil and whisky industry.
Would you trust them to run a whelk stall?
Apologies to all competent and responsible whelk-stall owners in advance.
I know absolutely nothing about economics so I have nothing to contribute regarding Graeme McCormack AGR system, the problem I have with it is that it sounds too good to be true.
How could we possibly sell this to a population of cynical Scots.
I think one of our biggest problems convincing people of independence (particularly the elderly) is that we have no track record of running our own economy in fact I think rightly or wrongly many Scots view our history as Scotland being the poor northern neighbour prior to the union, it certainly used to be my opinion.
I think most Scots would agree Westminster is wasting our resources and making a hash of the economy but for all too many the fear of making things worse is greater than the belief that we can make things better.
As a nation we have to somehow shake off 300 years of cultural suppression and start believing in ourselves, I think that process has already begun but still has some way to go but we’re getting there slowly we just need to be patient
Graeme
Breeks @ 3.23 pm
Chuckle away Breeks because the elderly are far more computer literate than you give them credit for.
Computers started appearing in the workplace in the 1970s so most of the elderly alive today were still working then. They also have grandchildren and great-grandchildren who help them. And you would be surprised how many of the elderly have gone to computer classes to hone their skills.
Lizg @ 4.50 pm
I think you are confusing Historic Scotland with the National Trust for Scotland. The latter does take over properties and allow the former owners to stay in them. An example is Tam Dalyell and his family seat, The Binns. Usually a sum of money accompanies the transfer to the NHS along with the property is from the owner to the Trust.
The majority of properties in the care if Historic Scotland are in varying degrees of ruin but where there are complete rooms in the property they often rent them out for weddings eg Doune Castle, Dirleton Castle.
Talking about anniversaries (ref. Cuilean’s comment):
In 2019 it will be 40 years from the first Devolution Referendum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979) – and the “Eton mess” that followed – but also 20 years from the effective establishment of National Self-government in 1999.
We’re quite sure that – having fighted 20 years for autonomy – we can’t wait another 20 years to “complete the process” with Independence.
I can’t call – yet – a date for #indyref2, but I can call a date for Independence day: April 11, 2021 – 70 years from the end of the Stone of Destiny raid(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_the_Stone_of_Scone_in_1950)
Between these two dates, there is also the Declaration of Arbroth seventh centennial in 2020…
Tinto Chiel says:
Would you trust them to run a whelk stall?
A whelk stall you say? 😉
I wouldnae trust them to go to the corner shop with £1 and buy 10 pence worth of blackjacks and return with the right amount of blackjacks and the right amount of change from the £1!
LA wrote:
“I know not everyone has a computer..”
That reminds me, just a suggestion!
Looking for ideas for Xmas? Why not buy someone a laptop or Tablet and commit to spend some time with them over the festive season and show them how to operate it with an introduction to WOS.
Or if, like me, you don’t celebrate Xmas, why not buy them a similar gift for New Year and spend some quality time with them.
This might be especially effective on that stubborn or soft ‘No’ friend or relation. Plus, you’ll be creating some good memories.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey!
😉
Sorry about this. 😉
Wouldn’t you know it. That dastardly Pete Wishart has been stirring the s***e … AGAIN! 😛
Needless to say our beloved newspaper of TRUTH … the Daily Express was there to get the full dastardly details. 😀
http://archive.is/vzeM1
As i have been living and working(after a fashion) in France for over seven years i have a fairly decent idea what the general consensus among a multitude of different eauropeans re Brexis is.The English people that a meet are embarrassed and shocked the rest shake their heads at the utter stupidity of whats happened.If only many south of the border and some in the north could see themselves as others do.Its this utter lack of perception and understanding that we are not really that different from each other throughout europe.We have a way more in common with each other than differences but we are allowing the right wing to hijack and create fear and division.
We cannot and must not let fear win over hope for a second time.
Very happy for the Brain family and the efforts put in by all to help them stay in their chosen country. Lang may yer lum reek.
Oh dearie me.
It appears that the autonomous Labour party ofScotland are none too happy about all the attention wee Murdo is getting today. 😛
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-37420713
This is the individual in question.
http://egenda.dumgal.gov.uk/aksdumgal/users/public/admin/main.pl?op=MemberDetails&keyid=33
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/20/ken-loach-just-proved-beyond-doubt-bbc-brainwashing-british-public-video/
Legerwood @ 5.29
No I am not confused,I am a member of Historic Scotland and one of my lot works there.
Think Fort George still owned and used by the MOD but looked after by Historic Environment Scotland.
Now obviously in an Independent Scotland the MOD will have gone but who will the land tax bill be sent to?
If it’s Historic Scotland then by default is that us?
I am all for the land tax thing as the article describes it by the way.
It’s just Petra asked us what we thought of it and the question of public spaces and private/public spaces was one thing I noticed the article didn’t address.
If we have to contribute to maintain our heritage and public spaces I am fine with that.
But I don’t want any loopholes where we are left paying for what is essentially an asset of an individual person or company.
Arbroath1320
Regarding digital voting, it’s far too easy to hack and i don’t think it can ever be made safe.
Any system connected to the Internet can be hacked and it’s almost impossible to prevent it.
To compromise our current system is very difficult to do on a large scale as the dangers of being found out are too high.
With electronic voting GCHQ would be able to change votes with noone ever knowing about it.
Even now companies and governments don’t always know that their systems are compromised, only when data is released are they aware.
The only safe system would be a private networked system over which you control all the cabling and accessories to it. Or a system which is not networked.
Unfortunately for a national voting system this is not possible.
Arbroath
By ‘institutionally supported’ I meant that the fraud in that instance would have to be known to those who managed the system.
Also I would prefer a direct dial up connection rather than the internet as I think that might be more secure
Arbroath1320
You are on the right lines- I see us being the only country in the EU with the ability to transfer a huge amount of spending outside our borders to within our borders thus stimulating the economy.
People are talking about increasing the old age pension- it is not as if an increase to the old age pension is equivalent to taking money out the back and setting fire to it. It is money that is going to, by and large stay swirling about in the economy.
The unionist triads really are a dispicable bunch of well spoken thugs, liars and back stabbing parasites.
As a 70 year old working class Scot born and bread, like most other kids just after the war we were taught children should be seen and not heard, and to do what your elders told you. A lot of us found our own way and standards in life, and that a lot of our elders (betters) were spineless liggers. Unfortunately a lot of them are still practicing their bowing and scraping to their betters, bosses.
Old habits die hard for some.
Wouldn’t change places with them for all the tea in China. They deserve pity a whole life spent in fear and under the cost of the establishment goons.
Scottiedog
Could I also add this resource on Modern monetary theory, which also explains why a sovereign fiat currency is a necessity.
And also why debt doesn’t matter as long as it stays in the country. Japan being a case in point.
http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2010/04/primer-on-modern-monetary-theory-mmt.html
This link explains why the uk won’t impose debt on an Independent Scotland as it would also mean owing money/assets to Scotland.
http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html
Problems with RT app crashing. So opened article in browser but then browser crashed.
Apologies if you try this link and your browser crashes!
https://www.rt.com/uk/360035-europe-hates-britain-brexit/
Article is about google searches in EU for “Why are the British/English so…” autocomplete suggests stupid, dirty, cry-babies etc.
I’m playing catch-up and have several hundred comments to browse so explanation due and apologies for any late replies to comments.
_____
LA wrote:
“I wouldnae trust them to go to the corner shop with £1 and buy 10 pence worth of blackjacks..”
As my favourite sweeties i can assure you you’ll no git many furr yer two-bob. I bought 2 packets yesterday fae B&M’s and it skint me 50p. Daylight fricken robbery ah tell ye!
_____
Petra.
I see you’ve made the correct decision and are continuing to contribute, good!
_____
RogueCoder.
Can any of the items in your Ultimate Wings pack (@4:55pm) be purchased individually? Especially the Wings Over Scotland static cling window stickers (40mm x 260mm).
Before everyone gets too carried away with the idea of electronic voting, a word of caution. Manual voting, with safeguards which were Not in place for Indyref 1, is exceptionally hard to subvert. Too many people at too many locations have to be in on the vote rigging.
On the other hand, all electronic systems have security which could be subverted by a small number of specialists. Even the ability to “check” your vote online can be simulated so that you see what you voted, but not necessarily what is recorded.
For a detailed explanation of the many and varied pitfalls in any e-voting system check out Bruce Schneier’s security blogs. He has covered this extensively in the past.
After Snowden’s revelations about NSA and GCHQ, e-voting is the last system which we in Scotland should use.
Bill dale
I agree, someone like GCHQ or NSA, definitely have the capability, have you read Bruce sneakers book secrets and lies?
I wouldn’t be surprised if the NSA have a working quantum computer. If one was developed it could break any encryption almost instant.
http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/nsa-working-on-quantum-computer-to-break-any-encryption/
Brain family (Dingwall) granted permission to stay. Two more “YES” voters? Would think so after being mucked around by Wasteminster.
Oh, to get rid of that boil on our ass.
@Undeadshaun.
Our present system is computerised, and still too easy to hack.
Each counting point gives their total, and it is added to the running total on a computer system. Nobody actually counts the millions of votes in a referendum in one place.
That should have said Bruce Schneier’s book.
Hee is another link on NSA quantum computer, from Washington post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-seeks-to-build-quantum-computer-that-could-crack-most-types-of-encryption/2014/01/02/8fff297e-7195-11e3-8def-a33011492df2_story.html
Bill Dale (@6:23pm)
Thanks for the informative post, i’ll check out those blogs you recommend because i too am a fan of e-voting, well, so far!
_____
I would like to offer another possible explanation for comments disappearing. Make sure your name and email details are complete in the correct fields prior to hitting the ‘Submit Comment’ icon.
I don’t know how many times i’ve written my comment first then hit submit only to realise my comment never posted. If you make that same mistake your comment will still be in the box where you wrote it. Just add your details and hit submit again.
Word of warning, if you don’t add your details and you hit the refresh icon you will lose your entire comment. Best to get out of the habit of writing your comment first i guess. Rolls eyes!
thanks Arbroath @4:02
Aye Tam and that will not have escaped the EU`s notice either a Scottish economic boom would be good for all the EU its what westminster has been trying to stop us doing by strangling our finances and stealing our resources shutting down funding to renewable projects decimating our heavy industries making us pay for illegal Nuclear weapons.
Cant have the true economic power of this island shine though it must be kept in permanent stagnation so London and England can flourish.
Aye we will see about that!
We held out the olive branch last time with trying to save sterling with a currency union not this time let it crash and burn deserves them right,new currency please.
“Ryanair boss Michael O’Leary has rubbished government claims it will secure favourable trade deals post-Brexit, insisting the UK will be “screwed” in negotiations.”
http://archive.is/fCCh5
He’s probably right. Natural justice should dictate that arrogant WM deserve to be knocked down a peg or two.
The EU won’t cut of its nose, it will put its own interests first. However its interests also mean making sure leaving the EU doesn’t look like a good idea for others who might be tempted!
Part of their negotiating position with be to make Brexit painful.
You read it here first. The next ploy of the unionist establishment (after their relative success of promoting Ruthie as they sunk Kezia) will be to promote of the LibDems in Scotland.
We saw it on the STV coverage of the LibDem conference in England on which Harry Whatsisname waxed absurdly lyrical about a rejuvenated party and thousands of new members, never thinking to mention this was in England only. We see it also in wall to wall Rennie whohas less support than the Patrick Harvie we rarely see.
Galamcennalath @ 17.15
Ironically probably one of the worst things the EU can do to the UK is entice it’s cash cow AKA Scotland away.
Think one of the EU big wigs has already made a comment along those line’s,by sarcastically correcting himself that he ment the dual Kingdoms of England & Wale’s
Hay Ho whit kin ye dae!!!!
@undeadshaun – yes, Secrets and Lies was the first of Schneier’s books I read. His others are also very good reads. He makes many very interesting philosophical points which are not only of interest to the IT security set.
I would go so far as to say that we would never gain independence if we were to be foolish enough to use any form of electronic voting, no matter what “safeguards” were touted by the manufacturers.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
“wall to wall Rennie who has less support than the Patrick Harvie we rarely see.”
Indeed. The Greens do present a problem for the Yoonery propaganda machine because they upset the narrative that it’s all about the ‘one party state’ SNP or its ‘dictator’ Nicola Sturgeon (previously Alec Salmond).
Having a second pro Indy party in Holyrood is something they go to huge lengths to play down.
By contrast, they like to show the rainbow Tories as multi party more democratic Unionism.
Perhaps it shows that the Yes side might best operate as a multitude of groups which are clearly not the SNP. IndyRef1 style, but taken further.
“You don’t have to be SNP to vote Yes” is a strong message.
I would bet BT2 will be multi faced, like the Leave campaign.
Anything close to on-line voting must be avoided like the plague as is the possible cashless society , Computers have their uses they can be used both for and against your interests without your knowledge or consent , ID badges with sound capture are being trialed for use in businesses in the US , why does a company need or require details of employees daily boring mundane conversations ? we are slowly being lured into our own straight jacket , i would advise certain things starting with our democratic right to vote be forever exempt from prying eyes ,and manipulation paper while not perfect is still a barrier to this ,Zeros & Ones will never be .
Lizg @ 6.09 pm
In your earlier post you wrote: “” Some privately owned buildings and land are handed over to Historic Scotland, they never own the property but are charged with the maintenance of it. The owners can in some case’s still live there and have input into what fundraising arrangements are made to keep THEIR property viable.””
The model you describe there is the one used by the National Trust for Scotland.
I gave an example of one such property that came into NTS by this route namely the Binns.. I am not aware of any HS maintained properties that are occupied as you describe but am prepared to stand corrected if you know of any.
Fort George which you quote was never in the hands of a private family but was always a Government property. Edinburgh Castle and Stirling Castle are other examples. It is part of Historic Scotland’s remit to maintain histiric properties such as these.
Historic Scotland is a non-departmental body and much of its funding comes directly from the Scottish Government. It has charitable status and a Board of Trustees appointed by SG Ministers.
NTS also has charitable status but us a membership funded body with additional funding from commercial activities and investments. It owns the properties in its care.
As far as tax is concerned I don’t think taxes based on the value if land of the value if property is the way to go. The values assigned in these circumstances are subjective. also as we saw with the rates and with the Council Tax there is a reluctance to carry out regular valuations with the result that eventually carrying them out after a long interval becomes politically unattractive.
A tax based on income would be better because the income of a domestic owner is known as us the income f a commercial company and retail business and tax can be set for each of these categories. Both Historic Scotland and NTS have income from commercial activities and that would be easier to assess and tax than land value particularly in the case of Historic Scotland where the properties they maintain are publicly owned.
A large spoonful of paranoia for those of us who are postal-ballot sceptics.
http://archive.is/6fn1n
@ Scottie Dog 4.49 – thanks for the link to the economics video. Excellent presentation and very apt for the current situation in Scotland e.g the fear mongering over the £15 b black hole!
Link in case anyone missed it 1 hr 18 mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d57M6ATPZIE&feature=youtu.be
Re paranoia about electronic voting systems. I remember linking some months ago to an article about the company who does in fact tally the election results electronically, in Scotland. Peter Lilly is a director. Times article has detail.
https://archive.is/tdmbS
“Czech state secretary for EU affairs Tomas Prouza warned that the UK would not be allowed to cherry-pick the best elements of membership of the bloc …. Mr Prouza said there could be no deal in which the UK tried to separate the basic freedoms of movements of goods, services, capital and labour – effectively meaning Theresa May would have to accept free movement of people as a condition of single market access.”
Yup. The ESM is a take it or leave it package. Only available in its entirety.
I keep thinking all WM want, or may get, is protection for the London financial markets to continue to trade.
The Brexit deal will be shite! And as soon as that becomes crystal clear, IndyRef2 will follow at a time which suits the SG.
http://archive.is/ljgYj
@LizG
It’s a real shame for the Zieldorfs. Jo and Ian took the community shop and put it back on the map, coffee, hot food for passers-by and a well-stocked shop. But they retired and it was taken over by Kala. A shop is a lot of work, the work carries on after the shop shuts a night, I don’t know if that’s why Kala sold to the Zieldorfs, but when they took over they totally renovated it and their house which is a part of it, a lot of work, a lot of time, shut for a year I think. I don’t think it’s easy getting trades.
I haven’t been there since they reopened it, I was too disorganised this year, but they made it into a cafe + boutique shop, and it’s in a great location, helps passing tourism, part of the community, and I’d think it was busy. It’s still open for business meanwhile, while they try to sell.
There’s absolutely no doubt an iScotland Government would gleefully give them permanent residence status but hey, the xenophobic UK thinks differently. But they have a business and jobs, and contribute to the overall economy. Bloody stupid.
Capella 8.55
Here’s the Herald of all papers reporting on this in May.
http://archive.is/FCerO
Why do I have the feeling that the responsible returning officers are never going to be up to the task of policing this?
JLT: left a message for you on Off Topic if you’re lurking tonight.
Wouldn’t want anyone to know what we were discussing on Sunday. 😉
galamcennalath: I was thinking the likes of Frankfurt or Paris would love The City to lose its “passporting” powers. I don’t think the EU will be very sympathetic but you never know, they might throw England a bone.
WM will hate being lectured by “a far away country of which they know nothing.”
What a shame.
Re the older generation, the SG already promised a triple lock pension before the UK had one but that made no difference – it was whether Scotland could afford it they were concerned about I think, with a little help from Brown & Co (not as attractive a lot as Legs & Co). Solve the economy question, solve that problem, I don’t think any extra bribe would work, or do any good.
BUT, the UK with Brexit is looking at whether it will be able to keep its triple lock going, so that’s a possible approach. Not so much better off in iScotland as not worse off staying in the UK. Our own Project Fear.
A quite major factor of Brexit is the EHIC, because the EHIC being acceptable is part of the EU, and also of EEA, so the UK would have to stay part of the EEA for the EHIC (medical card) to be acceptable in EU and EEA countries such as Norway. But I don’t think the UK will stay a part of the EEA or single market, I think it really will go out on its own, under WTO only.
No EHIC would mean paying medical when they go on holiday, or taking out an annual insurance, though the counter could be that they’d also pay medical in the rUK with Independence. It’s an issue would have to be tackled – Project Fear 2 could work either way on that one.
@ Mike Cassidy, agreed. Nobody can truly monitor an electronic system.
Someone said, last time this was discussed, that the STV voting system was too complex to be conducted by hand.
Should we be using voting methods that need electronic systems?
Arbroath @ 5.43pm.
I don’t know if any else has mentioned this but did you notice the BTL comment in that bitter article from the Daily Express re Pete Wishart and the Scottish raspberries? If not here it is.
‘I love Scottish raspberries. I think they are the best…..BUT, I urge everyone NOT to buy them or any other Scottish product. Hit Sturgeon’s evil crew where it hurts most. I say all this with a very heavy heart as I am a Scot. Boycott ALL Scottish products until the snp hit the deck and never rise up again.’
I really don’t know what to say. The hatred of the SNP doesn’t half run deep. They care not who gets hurt in the process.
Tinto Chiel 9.25
Those financial passporting rights might just be on a shoogly nail!
http://archive.is/Xk75K
Wasn’t the whole thing about pensions that the rUK, after indy, would STILL have to pay our (present) pensioners their pension in eactly the same way that they pay it to pensioners living in other independent European countries (because they had, after all, spent their lives paying into the UK tax pot).
The present body of Scots pensioners need to understand that, even with indy Scotland, the rUK are obligated to CONTINUE to pay them their pension.
I think this came up around IndyRef#1 but it clearly did not make much traction because of BBC propaganda machine’s total lack of properly informing on this issue and their total disinforming via Broon’s terrorising of the pensioners. “Yae’ll lose yer penshun!!”
We have to do better next time in getting this information out to pensioners, to wit: Even with Scottish indy, Westminster STILL has to pay you your pension. No ifs, no buts. END OF.
I forgot one possible incentive. In the UK if you’re 75 you get a free TV Licence. A good one would be to make it 65, or at least retirement age, 66 or whatever, in iScotland. It should be that age in the UK, never mind Independent Scotland.
geeo says:
20 September, 2016 at 5:13 pm
@smallaxe.
“My post at 04.24 was simply middle of the night, sleep deprived,pain fuelled attempt at disconnected humour.”
geeo:
I fully understand my friend I suffer same, as you may know,
I thought I recognised same symptoms in your posts,you just did not seem to be posting as you usually do. I am so pleased
that you took my comment in the way it was meant. If you feel
things getting to you in future and see me online, I will be
happy to go off topic with you for a blether thank you for responding.
Peace Love and Empathy my friend
To add:
Not just European countries, but pensioners living any ANY other country in the world – the rUK Govt are still obligated to pay them their pension even if Scotlands regains its independence. No ifs, buts etc…
A word of caution and a couple of revealing links for those interested in stats and demographics. It would be a major mistake to target focus on any one group such as the “elderly”,imo, not to mention insulting. We, as Wingers should focus on exposing the lies!
“Post Referendum Poll Summary”
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf
“Post Referendum Poll Tables”
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/LORD-ASHCROFT-POLLS-Post-referendum-poll-tables-Sept-2014.pdf
@Pround Cybernat at 9.50pm
Yes you are absolutely correct ref the pensions being paid/honoured by the UK government following Independence.
There was a letter copied and published on social media to that effect to a pensioner from the DWP confirming this would be the case.
There was also a member of the DWP that reported to the Scottish parliamentarians at a select committee (I recall) confirming the same verbally and which was posted on YouTube.
You are right this wasn’t given much coverage (as you would expect) from the MSM and especially the BBC, STV, SKY etc. However when Paw Broon did his rounds on the lie of “Your pension will not be safe in an Independent Scotland” no media outlet counteracted this by stating this had been clarified by the DWP as not being the case.
Of course this was political dynamite as this lie by Broon was pushed during the last weeks of the ref campaign. Something I cannot ever forgive Broon for deceiving the poor pensioners for. And me born and bred in the same town that Broon represented as MP and was educated in.
Still makes me a angry what that man did to Scotland.
I tried archiving this next link but when you do archive it you lose most of the very revealing and important graphics.
The Scottish Referendum Vote In Maps
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29255449
@Graeme
“I think most Scots would agree Westminster is wasting our resources and making a hash of the economy but for all too many the fear of making things worse is greater than the belief that we can make things better.”
More than making a hash of things, their profligacy is hugely damaging to future prosperity. It’s hard to know where to begin..
1)continuing to inflate the private debt bubble which is the real reason for zero demand in the economy. Household debt alone is around £1.5 Trillion. Driving house prices out of our kid’s reach
2) promising to underwrite the corrupt and reckless behaviour of the city bankers. A moral hazard.
3) creating via the Bank of England debt free money to pump up asset prices – free money for the wealthy
4) continued austerity grinding the economy to a halt
5) combination of the above means another (avoidable) crash/recession inevitable – causing even bigger deficits.
Meindevon, that is utterly shocking .
have no need to encourage anyone here to buy Scottish goods to support our producers but that won’t stop me buying veggies from Lincolnshire and elsewhere and cheeses I like from various parts of England.
I cannot imagine what sort of Scot looks forward to bringing Scotland down . I cannot imagine how well the media has poisoned a mind leaving it incapable of rational thought.
A great article by Derek Bateman..including this:-
A country denied the ability to run its own economy is blamed for being bankrupt by the authority which exercises those macro economic powers over it. The British Treasury pulls our wings off and then laughs when we can’t fly.
http://derekbateman.scot/2016/09/20/deference-or-dignity/
Re confirmation that rUK would continue to pay pensions of those already in receipt of State Pension.
I can confirm that this is true, it was a friend of mine who wrote to the DWP in Jan 2013 to seek clarification that like Pensioners stating in Spain he would still be in receipt of his State Pension in the event of a Yes Vote. The reply stated this was the case although the type of annual increases would depend on the agreement between Indy Scotland and rUK. I will have a copy of the letter somewhere !
Dorothy these sort of Scots want to bring us down. To put us back in our box and be good little North Britons. They want Scotland for the wealthy 5%. They are worried they might have to share their land,wealth and entitlement. They hate ordinary people they fear us as much as the burgeisee feared the commoners before the French revolution.
Glasgow alone could take Scotland back if another 10% would turn out to vote. Forget the selfish pensioners with their wee boabees. It’s the poor that can free Scotland. The wealthy don’t want them to vote!
Report on the Scottish Independence Referendum
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/179812/Scottish-independence-referendum-report.pdf
Public Opinion Survey on the Scottish Independence Referendum
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/179807/Scottish-referendum-Public-Opinion-survey-ICM-Report-WEBSITE.pdf
Tinto Chiel says:
” I was thinking the likes of Frankfurt or Paris would love The City to lose its “passporting” powers. I don’t think the EU will be very sympathetic but you never know, they might throw England a bone.”
Yes, the EU will make Brexit look like a mistake so as to discourage others. And if they pick up some extra business in the process, a bonus.
I just think that from a WM perspective, protection of ‘The City’ has to be at the top of their priorities. I believe it delivers ~20% of WM’s tax. And of course we all know the links between the financial industry and WM elites!
They may get their ‘bone’, or they may not!
I can’t get my head round what WM have to offer the EU that will get piecemeal concessions in return. I guess a ‘Norway Deal’ is possible. However Norway pays in as much as the UK per head. ESM and payments is a long way from the Brexit ‘dream’.
Donald (Tusk got his Scottish first name because his paternal grandmother Juliana travelled abroad in her youth and became enamoured of a lord called Donald. She gave this name to her son, who passed it on to her grandson. )was on Sky at the weekend, spilling the beans after dickering with May.
Claims May told him it was a go for early 2017.
So, either he was lying, was lied to by May, or it’s gen.
Or Donald, for the EU, was putting the bite on her.
DerekM
The state has 2 options- persuade us why the union is good for us or persuade us independence is going to be a disaster.
We are now staring down the barrel of a disaster in economic and diplomatic terms- a bona fide fuck up whose fallout will take in the poorest in society, the working classes, the aspirational middle class and the upper middle class.
It will envelope the farming community, the retail sector, scientific research, the financial sector and of course will lead to us being unable to staff key areas like the nhs.
Telling us we are better together is going to be a hard sell. I am a just a daft yes supporter and I can rip anyone a new one on leaving the EU- imagine what our talented reps can make of it.
Indyref was a celebration of great ideals. Indyref2 can be grabbing the beast round the neck and pushing the sword in. And we suddenly have the largest trading bloc on the planet in our corner wanting to take a little payback.
As you say- no more rational argument for a currency union- no debt, no trident and ALL spending on behalf of Scotland spent by Scotland for her benefit.
We are facing the mother of all stimulus packages and Westminster is facing a commensurate reduction in funding for all her functions.
And if no agreement can be reached- in the words of my father in law: “well, give us our fucking oil back!”
Glesga Keelie
So Donald Tusk spilled the beans after dickering with May. That conjures up a mental picture to haunt one’s dreams.
After an utterly laughable item on how Kezia has become “SUPER-KEZ”and in fact more autonomous than even the last time they were fully autonomous…apart from fiscally, vetoes etc…ie NOT ACTUALLY nearly autonomous, scotlandtonight jumps to the next item which shows a massive loveheart in the background stating boldly within it….”Who Cares”
Oooft !!
Sinky says:at 10:30 pm
I agree a great article by Derek Bateman.
Even more interesting is the link to “Holyrood Government rejects Austerity and Invests in Scotland’s Future”.
http://www.pieria.co.uk/articles/scottish_debt_mountain_is_a_molehill
by John Weeks Emeritus Professor of Economics at the School of Oriental & African Studies (SOAS).
A must read for all cringers
I live in Germany, am a pensioner and receive THREE pensions.
One from the UK
One from Denmark
One from Germany
Each pays on time and I receive any increases without any probs.
Because of the exchange rate with the Pound – Euro I’m currently getting (much) less Euros from my UK pension so the Brexit situation is starting to effect my overall income.
mike cassidy: thanks for that link. Oh dearie, dearie me for that there Lunnon!
galamcennalath: yes, I’ve been thinking what E&W have to offer the EU in negotiations and I’m struggling a bit. And when you add the distinct possibility that revenge for Brexit may be in the air……..
Not looking too good for Maggie May.
Tonight Michael Portilo in Romania on the trains. Stunning scenery and buildings. I remember when the wall came down. The horror stories that came out of that country. Arguably the poorest of the former Russian satalite country’s. Didn’t have a pot to piss in. Well not any more. From what I could see the country was thriving. Amazing what you can do when you become independent.
TheItalianJob: our Hub photocopied the DWP statement and handed them out to pensioners but they seemed to be more convinced by Jimmy Hood and John Maxton and their lies regarding pensions.
Then there was the “They’re coming for your pension book if you vote Yes” whopper.
That was when I lost any respect for BLiS______d.
Here in Frankfurt, Germany’s financial centre, the plans for dealing with the Brexit are fairly advanced and preparations for enticing the banking institutions and staff to here are already well on their way.
Frankfurt is the home of the Bundesbank, the ECB and the Stock Exchange here looks set to be the new, slightly larger partner of the London Stock Exchange.
Just about every real estate agent within 25 miles is already scrambling for land/property to sell or build on..!!
@Glesca Keelie
The BBC and UK Government have played fast and loose in the past with Barroso and Van Rompuy, what they actually said, and what they’re quoted as saying.
It’s quite possible Donald Tusk is getting his own back, on behalf of the EU and its officers. Good on him.
Meindevon
I made the mistake of looking for that article in the E*pr**s
I see what you mean. Need to wash my eyes out with bleach. Patently obvious that Pete W was being a bit tongue in cheek. Lost on your average E*pr**s reader however.
Wouldnt use tat vile rag to wipe dogshit off a shoe. I wouldnt honour that filthy propaganda sheet with the privilege. I think its even worse than the Daily Heil.
Scottish Labour have just spent 8 hours agreeing that they’re NOT autonomous but they can now use the word autonomous with complete autonomy
Stoker says:
Can any of the items in your Ultimate Wings pack (@4:55pm) be purchased individually? Especially the Wings Over Scotland static cling window stickers (40mm x 260mm).
Done 🙂
Two stickers for £2, or 10 for £6. Postage included.
http://www.ayemail.scot/store/?model_number=WCAR2
James Westland
It is fun to tear them apart but. The people who post on the express btl are perhaps the most idiotic group there has ever been.
It is like pulling wings off an insect. The crazy thing is they think Scots are anti English. As I point out- there is no Anti English forum equivalent. Most of them are pro indy though which is cool
By the way, for those losing postings, perhaps when you hit “Submit Comment”, you’re not waiting long enough for the message “You’re posting too fast” to come up, when you can go back and hit the Submit button again. It could be why you’re losing postings – a couple of postings ago I had to wait about half a minute before getting that message and trying again successfully.
Be patient! 🙂
WM is in for a big shock when it starts trying to negotiate trade deals and finds its a buyers market. John Bull with his begging bowel.
Aplogies if this has already been linked to. 😉
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond/alex-salmond-once-in-a-generation-referendum-was-estimation-1-4234980
The results are … well … interesting to say the least. 😛
Yes, the issue remains unresolved. 57 %
No, we had a vote in 2014 and chose 43 %
to remain in the Union.
Aye it’s going to be a sair fecht in Europe for Team GB or whatever they call themselves. My heart bleeds. 🙂
Hopefully, we in Scotland have a far better furrow to plough by remaining in the EU, hopefully via independence, though that isn’t going to be easy.
I see that a number of people have mentioned rUK’s liability to continue to pay the state pension to Scots in an Independent Scotland, as they continue to do with relatives I have who have emigrated to countries such as, the US and Australia.
Gordon Brown, as we all know, reached an all time Unionist low when he lied about the State Pension. Hell mend him.
I’m on my IPad so can’t post the following YouTube link. If interested, maybe someone else could do so.
YouTube: ‘Independence will not affect your State Pension’ – Steve Webb (the then) UK Minister for Pensions.
I fear that so called Scottish Labour, Kezia Dugdale, and the hacks staffing the Unionist Dead Tree Scrolls have lost touch with reality all together. They live in a make believe world where their constant repetition of propaganda lies, misdirection, and blind faith beliefs, is their only reality.
The other day, it appeared that they didn’t know what ‘transcends’ means.
In the netherworld of Unionists, it apparently means ‘abandoned’, or some such.
Now today the Colonial Herald has Kezia as their online Poster Chick.
The So Called Scottish Labour Party is set to become ‘fully autonomous’ but still somehow,ahem, ‘within the UK party’.
At Conference next week, the NEC is to endorse this quite impossible status apparently, and Kezia’s So Called Scottish Labour Party will have autonomy over policy making and decisions, including on matters reserved to Westminster, and a MSP will sit on the NEC.
Oh yes, and Kezia will get to pick candidates for WM elections.
They have completely lost it now.
Has Kezia Dugdale actually suffered a mental break down, or has the Tribe completely lost its head?
I can’t quite believe that the Colonial Herald has abandoned all vestiges of journalistic integrity to the extent that they print the Madness of Queen Kezia’s ‘fully autonomous’ rubbish unquestioningly.
Creeping Unionist madness; a symptom of the Fall Of the British Empire.
The Dead Tree Scrolls are a laughing stock.
Enda Kenny in the Irish Independent saying he believes, from various conversations, that A50 will be triggered early 2017.
Whether May wants that timescale or not, plenty are saying it, no doubt to apply pressure.
I think indyref2 will be late summer 2018. By that time, everyone will see the Armageddon of Brexit. No passporting without movement of people.
Berlin are writing directly to English Tech companies to tell them of all the benefits to be had in that city.
I think SNP have to leave it as long as possible, to let people see the mess for themselves. They know folk like us might moan at the delay, but will spring into action when it’s called.
As I’ve said previously, they want control of councils to show how they should be run, and persuade more that way too.
Build a bridge over a wide river estuary – call in the experts.
New rail link spanning 50 miles – call the experts.
Putting a telecoms satellite in space – call the experts.
Building Independence for Scotland – let every numpty in the land have their tuppence worth, with each believing him/herself an expert.
You can fool some of the people all the time – and most of them are Unionists.
@Petra at 12.15am
Thanks for the link to YouTube ref DWP commons committe hearing on the pensions issue.
That was the one. I couldn’t find it myself. That’s what good about this site ask a question and someone always has the answers.
Wish all the Nos (exemptions are the ultra unionists) would listen to us.
Legerwood @ 8.26
Wrote a great big detailed answer to you and it dissapeared.
Probably just as well cause we were way off topic.
Also in danger of making Petra sorry she asked about the land tax article.
Anyway if you still want to read my reply to you just shout up but it will need to go over to off topic.
Finger’s crossed X for this post.
Jack Collatin:
Jack are you sure Kezia didnae mean fully Automaton as in a
Moving DUMMY?
By the way Jack, I watched the documentary about the “Mary” she was magnificent,it was one of those happy/sad stories the
American guy at the end said “she was Scotland’s Pearl”but that english Pratt “oh yes she was British made dontcha know”
it was good that the yanks saved her from the scrapyard but did they really have to paint her PURE WHITE!
PEACE ALWAYS JACK
Watching Scotland and the Battle of Britain.
Darling still coming out with his pish. Scotland would have to join the euro. Ether a liar or a idiot that doesn’t understand how country’s join the euro.
Also they were going on about Scotlands share of the oil revenues. Show me the bank account.
I think after the council elections next year Scottish Labour is either going to re-form as an actually autonomous party and not be against independence or it will cease to be relevant.
When the (hidden) Tory in-fighting about soft/hard brexit comes out (between now and next may) it will throw the cat among the pigeons.
Too many variables, but none stack up in the union’s favour.
Smallaxe: We were once giants, Smallaxe.
I still recall the launch of the QE2 as though it were yesterday.
Then the rot set in. Development of the Hovercraft at Denny’s abandoned. Wave energy generation development on the Clyde;abandoned.
Unionist Parties of all hues just ignored Scotland’s plight.We were abandoned.
I’m beginning to think that So Called Scottish Labour is about to implode.
In a few days time, I’d imagine that many will break away when Corbyn is crowned.
The New Labourites may join the Lib Dems? Wullie will need to hire a bigger Portacabin for the So Called Scottish Lib Dem Conference.
May you be in heaven a half hour before the De’il knows you are dead, Oh Builder of Bridges.
Peace and love as always.
Vambomarneleye:
The two Marr programmes were a Unionist propaganda bonanza.
Apparently the choices facing us on the 14th Sept 2014 were the status quo, or separation.
No vow, no Home Rule, no guarantee that we would be staying in the EU: just ‘the status quo’.
And the clock struck thirteen.
Vambomarbeleye
Saw that. also recanted other obvious untruths. No shame.
Jack Collatin:
The Earl o’ Hell’s goat aw the best music Jack! I micht just
tak a wa’nner doon tae hiv a wee leary,A’ goat telt a tale or
twa bae yin honest man fae aul’ Ayr ur ther aboot,telt mi Cofin’s Stood lik’ opin pressie’s sho”in the deid in ther last dresses.Seems thur’s a braw yin kin rattle a guid tune oot an
aul’ fiddle Jack,mibbies yersel n’ me coud go thi’gither wit
dae ye think?
Peece n’ Luv ma frien
Goodnight All:
I’m going to bed before I fall awake again!
Have a lovely peaceful night
Scottish taxpayers raise (UK) gov pension. The money is raised in Scotland approx £16Billion of the £54Billion raised in Scotland goes on (UK) gov OA Pensions and benefits, Nearly a 1/3 of funds raised in Scotland. There is no UK gov pension fund. That was raided long ago. Gov pensions are paid out of current expenditure.
Tony Blair is shifting his wealth into Charitable funds. To try and avoid paying out when he is sued by the army victims who he illegally killed. Along with the Army Chiefs. Negligence.The Ministry of Defence could be sued for negligence by the victims of their illegal incompetence. Chilcot Verdict.
Blair and Brown should be in jail.
Labour/Unionists are complaining about incompetent Unionist/Green councils not finding places for Probationary teachers. ACC are 138 teachers short. There are vacancies and class sizes are increasing, because of Unionists/Green incompetents. Get some of these probationary teachers on the job. Teachers do not receive additional needs training, unless they specialise. Additional needs training is essential for their job. It helps all pupils.
Unionist /Green Councils are wasting public money on grotesque projects The majority do not want and not providing/cutting essential services, without a mandate. Against the public interest.
SNP/SNP May 2017.
Ken500:
Good morning Ken, I hope you are well this lovely morning,weather here in Dumfriesshire looks promising,the sun
is rising with a beautiful deep red colour through some fluffy
(not The Fluffy) little clouds up in the sky.
The’ Fluffy Mundell is up the lum as we all know,it was nice to see you on O/T thanking people who were at the rally at the
week end,your a proper Gentleman Ken. I would like to thank
you for your clear,uncluttered posts that you so generously put up for our perusal every day.Thank You.
Peace Always Ken
Kezia banging on about SLAB being autonomous… well that worked out well over the last few years. Sheesh!
So Kezia can now claim to run the most powerful devolved political party in the world – wonder how that will work out for her.
Couldn’t believe this nonsense when I first heard of it, but it seems common sense has prevailed.
http://www.thenational.scot/politics/exclusive-motion-to-hold-indyref-for-dumfries-galloway-thrown-out.22656
Brian McHugh:
Hi Brian,as I said last night I think Kezia means Automaton as
in moving DUMMY!, quiet this morning Brian isn’t it, I think
everybody is having a long lie in bed.
Peace Always
@Brian McHugh
How many times have they become autonomous over the past few years?
If they get any more ‘autonomy’ they’ll require a passport and a visa to get back in to the UK.
Here’s another one to throw at my fellow “coffin dodgers” who insist we are Better Together.
There is a piece in the Guardian this morning, in which it is reckoned: if Brexit means Brexit, and the Eastern European immigrants have to go home, the elderly care sector will lose about 1 million workers.
Elderly cre with then go into meltdown.
Morning Macart & skintybroko,
I was talking about these two clowns on O/T the other day,two
councillors getting paid for coming out with this rubbish,
Diggle and Caruthers,they should be sacked for wasting public
money.
These are the same people who held back Flood money from businesses,saying that the S.G.was to blame.Sack them both.
Peace Always
Links
Scotland-referendum-brexit
http://archive.is/IQywK
https://petewishart.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/indyref2-will-be-the-snp-vs-the-tories/
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9393/uk-spends-least-445m-more-bombing-iraq-syria-hellfire-missiles
http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2016/09/in-england-today-uk-politics-doesnt-include-scotland/
@Smallaxe
Ayup, I remember that. I’m from other side of the region by the by. Lot o’ folk from Newton Stewart especially were fairly grumpy with the hi jinks and point scoring certain councillors got up to. I’m fairly certain folks whose lives and businesses were left in tatters after those floods will have long memories.
http://www.cer.org.uk/publications/bulletin-issue/110
brexit-financial-services-companies-risk-5000-uk-leaves-single-market
http://archive.is/PmJCO
https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/en/our-projects/strengthening-and-connecting-europe/news/wake-up-call-after-brexit-the-euro-needs-reforms/
https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/09/embarrassed-ukip-mp-carswell-deletes-tweets-after-arguing-with-an-experts-on-tides-and-brexit/
Morning Smallaxe, you seem to be burning the candle at both ends, enjoying your posts.
Peace Always
http://tommyballgovan.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/lies-damned-lies-and-autonomy.html?spref=tw
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/witless-tory-mp-campaigns-against-local-nhs-closures-he-voted-for-himself/
Britain’s new empire
http://archive.is/xIMQj
https://theconversation.com/the-saga-of-britains-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia-hits-a-disturbing-new-low-65387
I should hope so Macart,there are too many no voters down here
who I hope are changing their votes to Yes after this debacle.
Good morning Nana, I’ve been waiting on your lovely self this
morning with your delicious links for breakfast.Steroids Nana,
I think they should be given to all us auld Yin’s,I’m wearing
my pants outside my trousers now, I switched off the light last night and was in bed before it was dark,great fun!
Peace and Love Sweetheart
Macart & Smallaxe, aye these two numpties wasting the time of D & G council with this daft motion. Did they ever think to ask the good folk of D&G for their opinion? I for one dinnae want tae be pairt o’ ingerland when the rest o’ folk vote fur independence.
Interesting to note that they had the support of councillors George Prentice, Jane maitland and Colin Wyper. With the elections due in May that could prove interesting, although Wyper has said he will not be standing again, I believe the other two are.
Smallaxe,I Hope that you and your good lady are improving health wise. Chest infections are horrible. Keep on keeping on it’s coming yet fur a’ that.
skintybroko says:
21 September, 2016 at 8:07 am
“Morning Smallaxe, you seem to be burning the candle at both ends, enjoying your posts.
Peace Always”
Aye skintybroko,ever since Thatcher,the original one,not the
darling buds one,said that she only slept for an hour or so
I’ve been frightened to shut my eyes for too long, I still
cant get out of the habit,its post traumatic Thatcher syndrome.Nae Cure.
Peace Always
@Smallaxe
Never mind steroids, it’s a cup of 3in1 oil I’m going to need after jigging away to the tune Stoker left for me on off topic. This morning I thought my joints were all seized up, crivens!
Hope you are feeling better this morn.
Have a few more links with your coffee
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/web-tool-estimates-renewable-potential/
https://endtimeheadlines.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/at-the-very-least-your-days-of-eating-pacific-ocean-fish-are-over/
http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/events/has-public-really-had-enough-experts
Marie Clark:
My wife and myself are coming along slowly but surely Marie,
thank you for asking.
I think in may we will need a good laxative to clean the sh%t
out of this council, I think these people forget that some of us Wingers live here,well I hope that their in for a ride awakening!
Peace Always
Rude not ride!…then again?
Peace Always
@Nana
Mornin’ Nana.
A fair old menu of links as usual. 🙂
@Marie Clark
They really weren’t too clued up on constitutional issues or terminology. What they proposed was beyond unworkable even on a basic level. I’m guessing stunt to work folk into a stupid and unecessary lather.
We’re in the middle of a very real constitutional and economic crisis brought on by power plays in a conservative government that couldn’t find D&G without the aid of a GPS and a six man safari.
Brexit will especially hit rural communities reliant on CAP and EU funding pretty hard. Folk are already worried sick and this is when councillors, who should know better and who should be attempting to set folks minds at ease, choose to come up with ridiculous schemes.
Senseless and thoughtless.
Nana:Thanks,
I saw you dancing on O/T last night, I was going to to ask you
for a dance,but I was doing the twist so fast that I screwed
myself into the floor, I had to wait until the wife woke up and got me out with a corkscrew,is that a screw from Ireland?
Always wondered.
Peace Always
Did anyone notice my new gravity tar at the side? it was my old hat for festivals but I wore it on Sunday at the green.
I’d better go now and let some sensible people post!
Peace and Love to All
Macart @8.50. Aye exactly so, but as I say, it’s iteresting to see the cooncillors who supported these numpties. Roll on May till we get our say.
Time wasting eejits, they have, or at least should have, better things to do to improve services here in D&G.
I’m not at all impressed at what these silly folk have been up to. I wonder what oor ain LA thinks about this, or have I perhaps missed her comment. I’ve just been dipping in and out for a few days.
Thanks to RMT and the staff for getting the trains up running, to improve the service and the economy. Electrication and shorter, and more frequent travel times from the stations. Best improved service will mean more jobs. Thanks for the great service, each and everyone. Appreciated.
.
Socrates MacSporran:
Sorry I just noticed your post,your right and they can add in
all the hotel workers and plumbers etc.These people are all working and I don’t believe that they have taken jobs from
anyone as some people maintain.The propaganda box in everybody’s living room has brainwashed a lot of our young people into thinking that they can go on to X Factor and be an
instant superstar.It’s shameful.
Liz g @ 12.52 am
I have noticed a few people have mentioned disappearing posts so did part of mine in Word then copied over.
If you still have your post then put it in Off Topic but if not then we’ll call it a no score draw. I am off out for the day anyway so no rush.
Ref D&G councillers and there ridiculous proposition.
Remember the same nonsense during the Indy ref regarding the Shetlands where some people were asking in the event of a Yes vote they should be allowed a vote whether they should stay with the U.K.
With so much history of being part of Scotland right upto the Act of Union this type of talk is pure mischief making and need to be nipped in the bud as has been done in D&G.
Read yesterday somewhere that UK oil production is up. Now about 1.5 million barrels a day.
In my head, that’s about 0.5billion barrels per year.
At ~£30 a barrel that’s £15billion worth of oil.
Production costs are about $25 a barrel, so profit on the total could be …
£5billion per year
And GERS say we get £60million tax from that.
Awa an’ bile yer Treasury heids!
One of Nana’s links also drew my attention to this little gem.
MSM – don’t you just love them!
http://archive.is/71lml
On Sunday Night about 10pm RT claimed tgat Nicola Sturgeon was going to ask / Demand what the EU’s position would be on the membership of an independent Scotland. ……. Since then heard nothing on this anywhere.
Poor internet connection leads to misinformation.
Borders and Shetland? Better communication.
SNP/SNP 2017 for better local government and services.
@galamcennalath says: at 9.32
Spot on. They the treasury are making a lot more revenues than they are predicting/showing.
MSM reports same nonsense. N Sea production up to record levels since 1999.
They know this is a big whip to hit us with and the U.K. government ensures everyone knows that oil is not as valuable to Scotland. Utter pish. I’ve been in oil and gas for over 35 years and know the real wealth of the resource.
Same nonsense on oil being sprouted by Ian Wood the other day as he did during the Indy ref. Ok for him being a billionaire and not giving a damn about his own people and country. Dispicable individual like the rest of them who keep lying about the true wealth of Scotland’s N Sea oil and gas.
Before Rev puts up a new thread I thought you might like to read about some things my friend told me.
She helps out some elderly folks with their messages, prescription and hospital/doctor visits. From the last few weeks on various trips she says they are all very worried about what is coming from Westminster. Not one of them have any confidence in May, they just see a shambolic mess.
She asked a couple of them for their thoughts re unionist parties here and their answers gave me a laugh. Davidson comes across as fake with a rictus grin and as for the other two, one old dear named them hapless and gormless.
When asked about a re-run of the referendum Hurry it up, can’t wait and pray I live long enough was said.
There was mention of pensions and they are all aware of the NHS sell off down south. But this is where my ears pricked up, one person brought up the media and how he found it odd that only the snp seem to get a bad press, so I found it gratifying that this point was made in a car full of elderly folk on the way to the shops.
I rather think pensioners are far more ‘clued up’ than some give them credit for. The two elderly folks I know personally are both on the internet and can teach me a thing or two or three!
Tackle the media and we will win.
Express headline in paper shop:
Ten years of SNP government is bad for your health.
That’s us felt then.
‘Your call’ on shortbread not quite going as far but it’s all very depressing that were spending all that public money to no avail. Hints Kaye. FGS! 🙂
galamcennalath Norway earned approxx 20 billion pounds from Oil and Gas in 2015, production around 2million bpd .
http://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/economy/governments-revenues/
Off course their take will be more due to owning Statoil, but if an Indy Scotland had the same tax regime as Norway regarding oil and Gas we could expect over 15 billion revenues per annum. A wee bit more that the 50 million that Gers says we earned!
Felt (telt) tablet speak no Scots.
Back to work… 🙁
mike cassidy says:
21 September, 2016 at 9:38 am
One of Nana’s links also drew my attention to this little gem.
MSM – don’t you just love them!
http://archive.is/71lml
Noticed that myself Mike, I see channel 4 is broadcasting a new drama starring Robbie Coltrane and Julie Walters,its about
a guy R.Coltrane, being accused of historical rape,he compares
the media frenzy to being like the Saville case.
That got my BBC radar flashing,it will be interesting to see
what transpires!
Peace Always
@Petra says: 21 September, 2016 at 12:15 am:
… Gordon Brown, as we all know, reached an all time Unionist low when he lied about the State Pension. Hell mend him.”
Aye! Petra. Yon muckle waghorn, Broon wad gar ye grue.
Owersettin intil the Inglis,(Translation into English), “That big liar Brown would make you sick.”
The legal facts are that all insurance is a legally binding contract between the assured person(s) and the insurer. The UK Government has no option but to pay out the pensions. Which, of course, raises the other question regarding National Insurance that covers not only National Health Services but also National Welfare.
Thus, upon Scottish independence, and a return to the Status Quo Ante, we must assume there would have to be big adjustments between the ONLY two partner Kingdoms in the United Kingdom to compensate the Scottish partner in the Union.
The legality of the matter is that there can be no remaining United Kingdom when the bipartite union splits in two.
It will thus become a straight division of resources between the two former partners of the former United Kingdom. Contrary to what the Westminster Establishment has always claimed there is nothing in the Treaty of Union that states the joint resources should be split along current population ratio lines.
It is quite obvious that those current population ratios are directly linked to how the United Kingdom Government has run the joint economies since 1 May 1707. There are no provisions for such a division of resources in the treaty and there will be no United Kingdom Government remaining to dictate terms.
The Treaty of Union is legally an agreement between two equally sovereign kingdoms and, as such the Status Quo Ante is a return to two equally sovereign kingdoms. To be otherwise would be akin to a marriage divorce in which one partner is again single while the other is still married to the now singe partner. It just cannot be so.
The fact is that under English law, which the United Kingdom legislates under, there is proven legal precedent that, (I paraphrase), “A sovereign, simply by being sovereign, cannot legally renounce the sovereignty of the kingdom or state”.
They can only abdicate their personal sovereignty and that means the sovereignty remains with the kingdom or state and passes to the next in line. This was the main reason there could be no Union of the Crowns in 1603 as James I of Scotland, under Scots law, was not a sovereign monarch and could not thus give away the sovereign people of Scotland’s sovereignty.
The Treaty of Union had to thus agree that Scottish Law would forever remain independent. The National assets of the United Kingdom, all of them, are going to be up for negotiation and NOT between the United Kingdom and Scotland but between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland.
Now for the big crunch for the United Kingdom – The old Scottish parliament was never wound up but was prorogued and then reconvened by Winnie Ewing upon the re-opening of the present Scottish parliament.
The English parliament sat and wound itself up. Thus the present Westminster Parliament legally ends and there is no elected Parliament of English Kingdom to legally negotiate for the Kingdom of England.
The hilarious bit of that is that, as the Kingdom of England, (England Wales and N.I.), became, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, in 1688, it will legally be Auld Lizzie who has to fight the Kingdom of England’s corner in court but she is also the Monarch of Scotland and under Scottish law her function is, “Protector of the Sovereign People of Scotland’s sovereignty”, and is thus legally ruled out as there is thus a clear legal conflict of interests.
Should be a very interesting period in British history in which to be an observer of how things work out.
Uk-told-it-has-zero-chance-of-having-brexit-cake-and-eating-it
http://archive.is/zCVUH
Nana,
You are lucky you met such enlightened souls. In the local supermarket waiting for the wife (she was talking to a friend–for a long time). Watched who picked up what paper. 95 % of the Express, Mail type papers were the over 60’s. Couldn’t see the NATIONAL but as one individual was nosying around they came across some hidden behind the Herald. I put them in a clear slot. Watched a bit more- wife still taking — to another pal. Someone I know in their late 60’S stalwart of the local church comes along. Picks up an express moves the National behind other papers.
I replaced into clear slot. Left the wife taking so I could get a seat in the car!
@galamcennalath
I put something like that on a Herald article and for some odd reason not one unionist replied to it. Oil & Gas UK say the unit cost per barrel dropped from $30 per barrel to $21 in 2015 and is expected to drop further this year.
But I think the ESA 2010 requirement might mean that the Treasury would have to supply more details, the UK currently has, like some other EU member states, a derogation not to meet the ESA 2010 standard (which came into force in 2014) in some respects, though they observe the ESA 1995 ones.
And some ignorant unionists like Average think they managed to discredit Andrew Hughes Hallet when he said GERS didn;t meet ESA, because GERS says it follows the ESA standard. Yes it does, the 1995 one with derogation from the EU. These thickos don’t do their research, in their haste to make themselves look clever and attack the Scottish Gvoernment and as a result, they’re even thicker than two short planks laid end to end.
Ha ha! I enjoyed that 🙂
@Nana
That’s encouraging. People don’t like change, and older people even more so. But we’re getting change like it or not with Brexit, and so it just becomes a choice of which change people want, and perhaps, do they trust May to get the best change, or Sturgeon?
@Hamish100
I did not meet them I only pass on what I’ve been told and was glad to hear it.
My friend lives in the countryside where there are many retired folk round about, from all walks of life and different experiences. No doubt there are readers of the trash among them.
Some older folks do not take kindly to change,it will be up to us to assure them change is for the better especially for their grandkids.
Well done you for replacing the national in full view.
The Scottish go pays Scottish (UK) pensions. They are paid from Scottish funds. The money for UK gov pensions and welfare benefits are raised in Scotland by Scottish taxes. (Approx) £16Billion. Nearly 1/3 of Scottish taxes raised in Scotland. It is paid by from the £54Billion a year raised in Scotland. There is no pension fund. UK gov pensions are paid from current Gov expenditure. Less pro rata is paid on Scottish – UK Gov pensions. People in Scotland on average die younger. The Unionist politicians are telling complete and utter lies.
The Scottish Gov/administration pays (UK gov) pensions in Scotland.
The fall in Oil revenues is caused by high UK gov tax regime when prices fell 75%. Osbourne raised Oil taxes 11% (£2Billion) in 2011Budget up to 81%. The Oil producers cut back new production. They would have been working at a loss. Osbourne kept the tax at 81% then reduced it to 60%. Not reduced enough. It is now 40% from Jan 2016. It could be decreased to 20%, same as other industries, to further increase production. Cameron/Osbourne destroyed the Oil sector. Losing thousands of jobs. It wasn’t the price that ruined the Oil sector it was the tax regime. Scotland lost at least £20Billions over the last 5 years. More Oil & Gas has to be imported putting up the balance of payments deficit.
More Unionist politicians complete and utter incompetence and lies.
Folks, I’m going to keep posting these links to videos dispelling the myths about deficits. Here’s another very good video to add to the one I posted yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBpm5sVmGYc&feature=youtu.be
Especially like the bit at 13 mins talking about govt surpluses being few and far between but very much limited to oil producing countries with small populations.
This isn’t a YES pitch. It is objective.
The National is sold out by 12 noon. Difficult to get. The early bird catches the worm. Increased advertising in the National. The shops are supposed to operate an increased order system, through the tills, when stock is sold out.