Mission 1, Phase 2
This is how it begins. This morning’s media reports a call from First Minister-elect Nicola Sturgeon that any future referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU should be subject to a veto from all four constituent nations – that is, if the UK as a whole votes to leave but either England, Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales vote to stay in, the result is null and void.
It’s an extremely clever move. While none of the main three Westminster parties actually WANT to leave the EU and would love to go along with such a plan, public opinion in England will not allow any of them to back it. There would be a massive outcry, and quite legitimately so – Scotland, people would reasonably say, just voted that it wanted to remain part of the UK, and therefore must accept UK decisions.
And with that, the die is cast and the door opens.
We’ve outlined the “2017 scenario” several times on this site, starting just days after the referendum. In the event of a UK vote to leave Europe – still the outcome suggested by the vast majority of polls – the arguments for Scottish independence, and the players on each team, change radically overnight.
Banks, businesses and newspapers which opposed independence (or were portrayed as doing so) would suddenly find themselves firmly on the opposite side, desperate to remain in the EU by any means possible. Factories, headquarters and jobs would get ready to flood north to avoid the catastrophic consequences of an exit.
Scottish support for staying in the EU wouldn’t necessarily translate to a Yes vote in a notional second indyref, of course – plenty of Scots DO want out of the EU – but with a starting base of 45% and the complete change in the tone of the debate, the game would be very much on. By taking the UK out, Westminster would have just destroyed most of its own Unionist case – it’s terribly hard to sell “better together” when you’ve just chosen to depart the planet’s biggest trading and free-movement bloc.
As we always say, the “2017 scenario” has many hurdles to clear. But with this smart opening gambit, Nicola Sturgeon has got the Yes movement off to a flying start.
What we need is a “vow” signed by all three Westminster leaders and published in the Daily Record with these words “We respect the right that Scotland has a veto on UK membership of the EU”
It’s alarming that Laura Kuenssberg – paid good money to be a political expert by BBC Licence payers (admittedly a diminishing constituency in Scotland…) – thinks that there is an irony here, as does her colleague Nick Eardly.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/527386068967260160
Nicola’s being entirely consistent. A UK-wide referendum on Scotland leaving would have seen the possibility of Scotland being kept/ejected against our wishes. As it stands, an EU referendum would also potentially see Scotland ejected from the EU against our wishes.
That’s not irony, it’s consistency. It would only be ironic if Nicola was calling for the rest of the EU to get a vote.
So maybe the BBC isn’t actually biased at all – it’s just staffed by fucking idiots who can’t follow basic logic.
Anyway, who’d have thought Nicola would be even better at trolling the UK Government than Salmond? The woman’s a genius.
Nicola is a smart cookie, as my American cousins would say.
Remember when you thought there wouldn’t be enough to talk about?
And done with style. 🙂
No flies on Nicola, she’ll make a fine FM.
Will be interesting to hear David Coburn UKIP response
We have to be careful as the same argument could be applied to any future Scottish referendum. Brilliant strategy though.
From what I hear Laura Kuenssberg is as thick as two short planks.
This is the ideal scenario. At the same time I wonder how many in the 45% YES aggregate are pro-EU and how many are against. The question ‘Should Scotland be an independent country’ and ’Should Scotland be an independent country to remain in the EU’ are different. I hope you right in saying that the second one would be backed by all means by the economic sector.
I spoke to soon here it is,coburn
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29816342
She has indeed Stuart.It is also a not so gentle reminder that England does not equal UK.
If other federal states such as the US and Australia can live with huge variation in population across their boundaries why can’t the UK? Broon after all promised that we would get ‘near federalism’.
A very clever and astute move by oor Nicola.
War has never been so much fun, hey?
This would be interesting where the Yes movement becomes a Better Together movement in terms of better together with the EU. While still seeking to be an independent nation from the UK. veyr interesting indeed.
Scotland and the EU really stretching Westminster/BBC ability to dictate, with their vote NO rule Britannia propaganda all over the shop. Should be be interesting to see how hard BBC in Scotland actually pushes Nigel Farage on Scotland again.
@Bookie
Not a very bright fella is he? 🙂
Phasers to Malky.
Laura Kuenssberg is no way thick. Her problem is she now thinks and speaks from a metropolitan agenda, which is in fact a very narrow and colloquial outlook on the world.
Gary Robertson and Kaye deliberately missing the important argument behind it and going with “so could this see you campaigning alone side D Cameron”, as the important point, even when she said she would be looking at cross party support.
Then Kaye trailing her programme with “should Scotland veto”, when N Sturgeon specifically said it wasn’t about vetoing, (Roberston introduced the veto bit, NS simply responded),
Presumably this was so the BBC could feed her sister outlets, the DR, Scotsman etc the right headlines.
A very clever move by Nicola and one which in view of the “Vow” cannot easily be ignored. Either we are an “equal” partnership of nations or we are “colonies”, this will sort it out once and for all, and if WM force the issue, give us a perfect opportunity for #indyref2.
Noticed our Gary ‘up fur a knighthood’ Robertson trying his best to deflect subject onto whether Nicola would campaign with Tories who were for staying in.
Aye very clever UKOK still have many champions at good old Pacific Quay.
– what a complete pratt.
Gary how about asking a Blabour politico to confirm their current membership ? – since you’re intent on them and you hogging the limelight.
I heard Nicola on GMS this morning – she’s caught them on the hop with this one. Gary Robertson was reduced to drooling about Yes supporters calling No voters ‘feart’ or ‘daft’ (not that we’d ever do such a thing).
A smart move indeed.
‘none of the main three Westminster parties actually WANT to leave the EU’
Better tell the press that, the Telegraph (by proxy the Tory Party) are pushing the opposite way.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11192855/UK-faces-debt-timebomb-from-ageing-population.html
Nicola Sturgeon is not simply a big fish in a wee pond…she is a ‘big hitter’ and a testament to Scotland’s home grown political talent. With Nicola taking over the helm from another ‘big hitter’, the YES movement will gather momentum and surge towards the ultimate goal – Independence. (the capital ‘I’ is intentional)
Maybe, but cameron might just sneak it in to cover his posterior and ride out the storm
@bookie from hell
Will be interesting to hear David Coburn UKIP response
You can hear the fatuous idiot’s response at around 2hr36m on today’s GMS.
http://tinyurl.com/pkxquz3
public opinion in England will not allow any of them to back it. There would be a massive outcry, and quite legitimately so – Scotland, people would reasonably say, just voted that it wanted to remain part of the UK, and therefore must accept UK decisions.
Though that becomes interesting if you turn it on its head. Imagine there is a narrow UK-wide vote to stay in the EU but only as a result of votes in Scotland and Wales: in England the vote goes the other way. What then of public opinion in England? How would UKIP and southern Tories take that?
The “campaigning with the Tories” line is an odd one, given Cameron has put himself in the very odd position of not being able to say what side he’ll be on yet.
I have a feeling Cameron has been looking at Salmond and *thinks* he’s using the same strategy – ie push for more powers and reforms while threatening to leave. Only he hasn’t realised Salmond is a conviction politician: he believes in independence and was fighting for that. Cameron is basically saying to the EU, “give me what I want so I can be on the no to withdrawal side…I really don’t want to be on the UKIP side, honest”. It’s an obvious bluff and will be called by the EU, almost certainly. He may well end up on the “out” side of the debate along with the bulk of the Tory party.
No one can assume the 55% who voted to have Westminster carry on as before feel the EU a sinister or interfering monolith.
Some Anglophiles must want renegotiation, some full withdrawal, others content to leave rules of engagement to MPs and fate. Will those who feel passionate about staying in the EU march in protect? I doubt it.
As Stuart opines, no one can assume a majority of the 55% will choose Scottish independence on a second referendum if England demands withdrawal and gets it. If they were satisfied with Westminster last month, they will be just as happy next month – whether they voted blindly or, we presume, without due care and attention.
We can be sure a good many Scots will dislike shunning the EU and might now prefer self-governance to protect EU association, but then again, who can say all the 45% of enlightened will remain loyal to the cause and remain the spring board to a winning vote?
“Though that becomes interesting if you turn it on its head. Imagine there is a narrow UK-wide vote to stay in the EU but only as a result of votes in Scotland and Wales: in England the vote goes the other way. What then of public opinion in England? How would UKIP and southern Tories take that?”
That would be hilarious, in a deeply depressing way, but it’s an enormously long-odds prospect.
@Cath
By telling Scotland to fuck off I would imagine.
Excellent bit from Bella-Seems Scotland is NOT alone in its travails against the butchers apron. Australia, it would seem, has been subjected to concerted anti independence attacks from London and washington also!
God-if ONLY poor ‘ol Scotia NEVER ever had an involvement with london, we would be LIGHT YEARS ahead from this apology of a “country” which we, at present, are languishing in……….
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/10/28/its-time-the-independence-of-gough-whitlam/
Is it really fair to say that the UK leaving the EU is ‘still suggested by the vast majority of polls’?
That doesn’t seem to tally with info available here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_referendum_on_United_Kingdom_membership_of_the_European_Union#2014_2
New Zealand wants a referendum to drop the Union Jack from its flag. Hoo haar!
Cath: “Though that becomes interesting if you turn it on its head. Imagine there is a narrow UK-wide vote to stay in the EU but only as a result of votes in Scotland and Wales: in England the vote goes the other way. What then of public opinion in England? How would UKIP and southern Tories take that?”
England becomes the UK equivalent of Greenland and leaves the EU while the rest of the UK stays in? Just like Denmark is in the EU, but only some of the Kingdom of Denmark is.
Even that would help us out, though.
AuldA,
I’m one of the ‘against but couldn’t really care less just as long as we break from Warminster control’ group – if that makes any sense.
Over and well above anything else in politics Scottish Independence from Warminster control is THE most important thing in my world.
Meanwhile, anything that gets these Unionists riled has got to be good. To see Unionists such as David Coburn frothing at the mouth over this and just about going into cardiac arrest is a sight to savour.
🙂
O/T
And Nicola’s intervention is also a masterstroke at diverting media attention away from the meaningless BLabour leadership debacle.
We are all getting tired of the way keep dripping hate out about the SNP’s coronation tour, whilst they plan an open and honest debate ??
Grouse Beater says:
29 October, 2014 at 10:33 am
New Zealand wants a referendum to drop the Union Jack from its flag. Hoo hair
Thought the Kiwis had more sense! If I was them, I would simply do it unilaterally-If they wait for mummys consent, they will wait, and wait, and wait…………..
This EU Referendum…anyone seen any signed promise that it will take place?
I reckon its destined for the long grass just like any new powers for Holyrood.
Fair play to Nicola though. What an initial display of intent as head honcho. A True Alpha Female as she takes on all major parties and slaps UKIP down straight away. Bravo.
No shy entrances here, unlike the Labour Dinner attendees tomorrow night in Glasgow!
So maybe the BBC isn’t actually biased at all – it’s just staffed by fucking idiots who can’t follow basic logic.
I would contend that it can be both biased and staffed by fucking idiots.
It would be ironic if it did come to pass that the UK voted to stay in the EU only because of the voters in Scotland choosing to do so i.e. the rUK votes narrowly ‘out’ but Scotland votes decisively ‘in’ and tips the balance. Despite my complete belief in Scotland becoming Independent we could then refuse their calls to leave and watch them squirm. Well, for a while anyway.
I’ve actually been thinking recently that we might have to start imagining the unimaginable – England NOT voting to leave the EU.
The last poll I saw on the subject seemed to suggest that some folk would vote to stay in if the UK managed to get “powers” back from the EU. Considering what we’ve seen in the indyref – namely people being pissed off with the UK, but eventually voting to stay in because of a vague promise of a changed union – it’s entirely possible that the EU will somehow allow Cameron to go to the electorate saying “hey, we’ve gotten powers back! You can vote to stay in now”, and some people would fall for it.
How many of those who claim to think the UK should get powers back from the EU actually know what powers the EU has, never mind which ones should be taken back? Some folk just like the idea of powers being taken back, just like some folk liked the idea of more powers for Holyrood, despite not knowing what they’d be.
It might seem a sure thing that England (and therefore the UK) will vote to leave, thus giving us our chance; but we shouldn’t assume it’s a dead certainty. We’ve just witnessed the British state’s ability to browbeat folk into voting how it wants them to vote – there’s nothing to stop them doing the same again (utilising big business to scare people, getting the EU to play ball etc). The only real difference is the media, but even they might change their tune once the bluff has been called and a referendum is actually on the table.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29805045
You wouldn’t believe half the comments. They just don’t seem to get it. This is going to be fun!
Those ARMA3 graphics are amazing.
Also interesting will be watching EU or Brussels campaigning to stop UKOK leaving. They kept completely mute on Scottish independence, bar that liar Barroso telling us it would be impossible for Scotland to join the EU, via fraudster vote NO BBC as per.
Garry Kasparov is taking notes.
It’s ironic that English separatists are now adopting the arguments of evil cybernats in order to exclude the rest of the EU in a vote.
Will the million British ex-pat’s in Spain be getting a vote in separating from the EU?
“Chris ?@Nitrohaze 1h1 hour ago
@NicolaSturgeon anyone notice how Nicila is happy to engage with media types on social media but not with normal electorate. @bbclaurak”
____
Social media is where a lot of the “normal” electorate go to air their views and I see nothing wrong with Nicola Sturgeon using this medium to get her point across, in fact, I welcome her giving us access to her thoughts and indeed, engaging with the general electorate. Is this sour grapes because she didn’t reply to one of his tweets I wonder?
Also, does this numpty realise that she is going on a tour of Scotland doing just what he said she was not.
” public opinion in England will not allow any of them to back it.”
Last time I checked Westminster is elected on the basis of the whole of the UK, not just on the basis of voters in England.
Nicola Sturgeon has played an absolute blinder this morning. If this is a sign of things to come, under her leadership as FM, then things are looking very good.
[Of course AS just maybe had a wee bit of input LOL]
@ Doug.
The card we may have to play given that scenario is.
” Look what they promised Scotland with the Vow, then look what we got”
@ Major.
I liked the graphics of Elite (on the Spectrum)
🙂
Grouse Beater says:
29 October, 2014 at 10:33 am
New Zealand wants a referendum to drop the Union Jack from its flag. Hoo haar!
_______________
Yes, they want to replace the BNP bogroll with the silver fern.
Gaun yersel NZ.
🙂
Another issue that is raised by all of this is the EVEL question.
If the rUK (mainly England) just even sense the threat of a ‘veto’ by the likes of Scotland (justifiably in its form as a part of their United Kingdom, albeit via devolved legislature), then this is surely going to stir up the debate to another level about England being allowed to dictate its own policies for its own peoples wishes?
Can you honestly see English Tories, constantly harangued by UKIP, facing their constituents on the principle of those elsewhere in the UK, not accountable to the English voter, having such sway over matters that they themselves are against?
Stroll on…slam dunk.
@Stoker:
Good. But you understand this implies somehow voting against your convictions in a possible EU referendum?
Meanwhile, anything that gets these Unionists riled has got to be good. To see Unionists such as David Coburn frothing at the mouth over this and just about going into cardiac arrest is a sight to savour.
That brings back the memory of a recent article on ‘Weegingerdug’: ‘Is schadenfreude fatal?’
Now, everybody seems to forget this, but there are in the UK some parts that enjoy a more-than-devo-max status, not being even part of the EU: the Anglo-Norman isles. Could somebody more learned in UK legislation and customs elaborate on how the Anglo-Norman status could eventually also apply to Scotland (as a transitional measure before full Independence)?
Footsoldier says:
We have to be careful as the same argument could be applied to any future Scottish referendum. Brilliant strategy though.
_____
Not really, membership of the EU is a matter for all constituent parts of the UK, Scotland remaining in a Union with England is a matter for Scots alone the same as if England wanted out of the Union they would be in their rights to exclude Scots from voting in their referendum.
@Edulis says: 29 October, 2014 at 10:09 am:
“She has indeed Stuart.It is also a not so gentle reminder that England does not equal UK.”
That, Edulis, puts a finger on the whole mess. I’ve just posted, (on the previous topic), along those lines but also including the whole Westminster Establishment Unionist propaganda.
“Britain”, – is an archipelago. It is not a country.
“Great Britain”, – is the largest island of that archipelago. – It is not a country.
“The United Kingdom” – Is a united kingdom. It is not a country.
“England, Scotland, Wales, N.I. Jersey, Guernsey and Man Republic of Ireland are all countries.
However, the Westminster Establishment has now made of itself the de facto Parliament of England and is thus devolving English power to the other three UK counties and keeps talking as if it were Britain and ignores the fact that Britain also contains a non-UK Republic and three non UK Crown dependencies.
We could solve the various problems by never allowing these politically motivated people to get away with using the wrong terms. Cameron, in particular, would be utterly banjanxed if someone were to pull him up and correct his abuse of the terms he uses.
Sometimes even several such errors within a single short sentence. Up to and including, “My Government”, (it is Her Majesty’s Government”). “My country”, but not clear if he means England, where he was born, the UK which isn’t a country or Great Britain, which doesn’t include N.I. or just the Kingdom of England which includes three countries. Not to mention his abuse of the term British, which term includes more than just either England, the UK or Westminster. For example Cameron is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom but speaks as if he were Prime Minister of all of Britain. He is only British PM in the context of the UK being a British state.
As posters have alluded to, there are a number of potential scenarios developing. Whatever happens, however, the point is that the people of Scotland, Wales and NI and possibly even England (unlikely) may be forced to accept in/out of Europe against their will. The coming SNP amendment to a EU referendum bill is a real test of democracy for Westminster. We either all opt out, or we stay in. Are we a family of equal nations in the UK or are we not?
The unionists will be spitting blood today because their anti-democratic “Mother of Parliaments” about to be exposed big time.
Oops, my bad, the Channel islands are not part of the UK. Strange status.
Broch Landers says:
29 October, 2014 at 10:50 am
Garry Kasparov is taking notes
Your move, Mr Cameron:
Tick, Tock
If people start saying that the rest of UK should have a say in any future indy referendum….tell them they did, they agreed to it, as per Edinburgh Agreement.
Signed BY UK PRIME MINISTER.
heedtracker
Are you so that the EU members said nothing? BBC and the Media reported nothing they said – unless it either supported or could be twisted to support the Westminster position. I did see snippets here and there, where officials (frequently retired ones) said things that were clearly welcoming or rebutted negative misconstructions of what they had said. I expect there was more I missed.
Just laughing at 2 mental images in my head today :
1: The Rev sitting thinking “How did I ever think it would all die down after the Indy vote?”
2: Scottish Labour HQ “She’s did what?..get Anas out there. Wheres Anas?…has anyone seen Anas”
I think this is a brilliant move by Nicola.
I think she probably feels that she has got a mandate because of the 45% Yes which was delivered despite the abuse heaped on Scotland from everyone.
If WM push EVEL, then Scotland, Wales and NI can say, fine Scottish votes for Scottish laws and the same for Wales and NI.
I now think/hope the indy ref was the beginning of the end
joe kane says:
29 October, 2014 at 10:50 am
“Will the million British ex-pat’s in Spain be getting a vote in separating from the EU?”
Joe, I would say that the correct term for “ex-Pats” is immigrants. It seems to be okay for the people of the UK to go abroad, settle down, get jobs and make a contribution to society, BUT it is not okay for others to come to the UK and do the same without being labelled as bloody foreigners stealing our jobs.
By the way, Nicola’s statement and its timing is strategically brilliant. It will cause further mayhem at the English by-election.
More popcorn anyone?
This is indeed a very clever move by Nicola and I’m glad to see that she is thinking strategically and looking well ahead. That is what we expect from a leader.
Let’s be clear though – all Nicola is really doing is highlighting yet again the flawed logic inherent in the make up of the United Kingdom. The unionists will simply say that the member state of the EU is the UK and if a majority of the UK vote to come out, then that is what should happen. How that is meant to be squared away with us being a “family of nations” – a phrase much used by Cameron in particular – will not be addressed. It begs the question “What does it mean to be a nation within the UK?”
So depending on developments over the next three years or so, this could give rise to another opportunity for a Scottish indpendence referendum. Lets hope so. But at the very least, it is stirring the pot, it keeps the independence issue simmering and it will help to maintain the 45% so that next time round we are starting from a much higher base.
Well done Nicola.
Some ask “how many of the YES side are pro or anti EU?”
Who cares – if being Pro EU brings Independence nearer then I’m Pro EU! If the opposite were true I’d be Anti EU.
The End Justifies the Means.
Current opinion on the EU in England and Scotland is what I call ‘cold’ opinion. There is no campaign in progress and there has been no systematic attempt to change people’s views. Yes, I know there is a steady trickle of negativity from the MSM, but as yet nobody is taking up arms for the other side.
We saw how dramatically the gap between the sides in indyref narrowed once the campaign got moving. Many more than the SNP rallied to the Yes cause, resulting in panic in Westminster.
If a referendum goes ahead, which of the UK parties will campaign for remaining in the EU? They all run scared of UKIP who (ably assisted by the BBC) have successfully linked immigration with EU membership. In the heat of a referendum campaign English opinion would probably swerve more strongly to Brexit as there seems no-one with the courage to argue the other case with any conviction.
It seems the only safe course for Cameron is to avoid a referendum on some pretext such as that suggested by Doug Daniel above.
I’ll be voting to come out — but I want a veto on the English agreeing with me.
Why would you put barriers between yourself and your biggest export market?
No, really. Why would you do that?
Looking at the EFTA and EEA, I get the impression it’s not the solution that UKIP and others like to paint it as. Members still have to enact EU laws, participate in EU programs and pay money to the EU to fund the agencies that are used but there is no representation at the decision making level. There is the ability to lobby their views and ultimately hope the EU agrees with them. It feels like eating at the kids table while the grown-ups have their wine and talk about Auntie Pat’s hysterectomy!
Also, given the size of the member states in the EFTA, would they be comfortable accepting the UK? It would completely change the dynamic of the organisation and open them up to being led down the same right wing path that London follows.
It might seem a sure thing that England (and therefore the UK) will vote to leave, thus giving us our chance; but we shouldn’t assume it’s a dead certainty.
I agree Doug. I suspect any EU referendum will play out on remarkably similar lines to the Scottish one – our one was almost certainly a test run so the establishment will have learned lessons from it as well. If what the establishment, political parties and media want is for the UK to stay in, that’s what will happen and we’ll see a re-run of all the scaremongering, threats, ‘if you don’t know vote no’ etc, etc. And the result will be a nervous electorate voting for the status quo (with promises of more change, honest).
However, the one really big difference I do see with this is that the Scottish one was run on honest political terms. That is, the SNP who brought the referendum forward did so based on a manifesto promise where it was known absolutely they would be on the Yes side. It was also known all Westminster parties would fight tooth and nail for their own interests, hence be on the Westminster side. Business and the media could have chosen but in the end came down pretty solidly on the UK establishment side – whether through threats, bribes, self interest or whatever.
The EU referendum is much more of a mess because all establishment parties and media have been EU-hostile, to pander to UKIP. We’ve had years and decades of anti-EU propaganda from politicians and the media. By comparison, in Scotland we had decades of anti independence, anti-SNP propaganda prior to the referendum. We’ve been battling “too wee, too poor, too stupid, SNP are fringe Nazis etc” along with pro-UK propaganda all the way to where the SNP are now. The UK will be battling similar “EU bad” propaganda if it has to try and get people to vote in.
So it’s really not clear where the parties and media will sit on the EU referendum, and whether any of them will have the guts to stand up and argue honestly for what they want. The likelihood is that the media will be nowhere near as universally pro-EU as they were pro-UK, and many politicians will not have the guts to stand up and fight for the EU either, even if they believe its best. This is especially true of the Tories, who may well be in government, perhaps alongside a lot of UKIP.
“Will” over on Newsnet having a go at Nicola. I’ve had my say – get over there and make your point. Is “Will” not Podmore who has been, thankfully, noticeable by his absence since someone tore him off one!
The logic is very simple – as NS herself highlighted on GMS.
The UK is a definition based on monarchy – the clue is in the word Kingdom. But it is not a country per se.
It is made up of 4 countries. On that basis, as with any union, any of these 4 countries could vote to leave their union – you cannot force a country to be part of a union (or organisation) is no longer wishes to be part of and if a country wants to leave it is their choice and no-one elses.
With the EU, the UK as a whole can only leave if a majority in all 4 countries chose to do so. It’s their choice alone and France, Germany, etc. cannot have a vote and cannot say to us “You cannot leave”. The parallels to IndyRef are obvious.
The BBC keeps calling it a veto but it is not. In politics a veto is a constitutional right to reject the decision of a law-making body. But the EU referendum is a referendum of the people so there is no “veto” per se. Nicola herself was careful to say it was not a veto yet the BBC ignore this fact.
It is a simple democratic fact that each individual nation in the UK is currently part of the EU and only a majority vote in each nation could “force” that nation to leave the EU.
I think the EU need to come out now (they were very quick to do it with our referendum) to say exactly what would be the EU’s position if a majority in England (and therefore the UK) votes to leave the EU but a majority in one of the other constituent countries (NI, Wales or Scotland) opts to stay with the EU.
Having voted Yes in September & for those curious to know about support for an Indy Scotland within the EU,four letters spring to mind. T.T.I.P . I wouldn’t wish for Scotland to be a full member of the EU for this alone.
Also, to add to that, there isn’t the same level of self-interest in the EU for most UK politicians as there was in Westminster for most Scottish unionist ones. And politicians will only fight really hard and dirty where there is something in it for them. If they see more self interest in keeping quiet, or being anti-EU than pro, they’ll go that way.
I’ve been rattling on about, “The Westminster Establishment”, for a long time and it seems some here don’t understand what constitutes, “The Establishment”, so I thought I’d have a crack at defining it a bit more clearly for you : –
The phrase was first used in its more common modern sense by Henry Fairlie in the 1950s. He used it to denote, “the aristos”, who covered up for Burgess and Maclean). However, this was just his way to talk about how, “The British ruling class”, went about disempowering the working class, to its own, (The Establishment’s), spectacular enrichment.
The Westminster Establishment is the interlinked cliques formed by Royalty, Aristocrats, (both hereditary and appointed). The Established Church of England, The Police, The Armed Forces, Security Services, Civil Service, Parliament, (both houses), including the Law Lords and CofE Arch/Bishops, The State Broadcaster, Bank of England and the London Financial sector. It also includes certain Educational Establishments like Eton, Harrow, Oxford & Cambridge.
Take note that these people close ranks and few ever come before the courts for even the most heinous crimes of both a legal & moral nature, (I’m sure many here can identify many instances without my further prompting).
bookie from hell says:
29 October, 2014 at 10:08 am
I spoke to soon here it is,coburn
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29816342
What a poisonous bloody idiot that man is! What village is he from? He needs to go back quickly, they are missing him desperately!
And (not going OT because, well, because) what game is that in the picture?
It’s 16-bit gen, I feel Amiga more than Atari. By the scale, it’s a side-scroller or a cutscene. I’m torn between Silkworm for the former and Cannon Fodder for the latter but I don’t remember if Cannon Fodder had cutscenes.
Here’s a wee democratic conundrum:
If whichever way Scotland votes in a EU referendum, has no influence whatsoever on the result, then what is the bloody point of anyone in Scotland voting at all?
Cath says:
29 October, 2014 at 10:18 am
public opinion in England will not allow any of them to back it. There would be a massive outcry, and quite legitimately so – Scotland, people would reasonably say, just voted that it wanted to remain part of the UK, and therefore must accept UK decisions.
Though that becomes interesting if you turn it on its head. Imagine there is a narrow UK-wide vote to stay in the EU but only as a result of votes in Scotland and Wales: in England the vote goes the other way. What then of public opinion in England? How would UKIP and southern Tories take that?
They could always vote to become independant of the UK
AuldA says:
29 October, 2014 at 11:02 am
“Good. But you understand this implies somehow voting against your convictions in a possible EU referendum?”
________________
Yes, the thought has crossed my mind but i’ll cross that bridge IF we ever arrive at it. Meanwhile, i’m quite content to sit back and watch the good folk of England script the drama – with the odd spanner thrown into the works by us of course.
Someone on WOS recently spoke of “starting a fire in the enemies camp” – i can’t help but wonder if the SNP have just started toasting their marshmallows.
🙂
Doug Daniel,
Correct.
This is a tactical move by Nicola.It helps keep Independence in mind.We won’t be getting another referendum til there is an overwhelming demand for it.When will that be? It depends on circumstances,fate and,mostly,our appetite for work towards it.I don’t want another ref until we’re in a strong position to win it.
By my very rough calcs, if England votes 51% to leave the EU, and the other nations vote 60% to stay in, then we stay in.
An unlikely scenario, but how sweet would that be?
@Heedtracker:
Also interesting will be watching EU or Brussels campaigning to stop UKOK leaving. They kept completely mute on Scottish independence, bar that liar Barroso telling us it would be impossible for Scotland to join the EU, via fraudster vote NO BBC as per.
That’s no wonder. The EU walks on eggshells when it comes to the UK. Had they adopted an official stance, not only would they have risked a major backlash with the UK (“How dare they mingle into our private affairs?” immediately harvested by the UKIP), but they would have opened the Pandora box w/r to the other separatist regions, such as Flanders or Catalonia.
As I said before, the only politician who maybe would have risen a voice in support of YES would have been the General De Gaulle, as he did in Québec. Because he mainly disregarded the fallouts. But he’s been dead for a long time now…
Mutley @10.28, judging by a comment I had on the Spectator yesterday we Foreigners were already being told to get back home and not contaminate England and take our MP’s with us. I wonder how those living in England are really faring since the Referendum.
I also remember being told that we Scots should not be allowed to vote in the EU Referendum in case we made England stay in.
Aye, let’s all have a great big laugh as the union squirms.
Good shot Nicola!
Cameron speaks like a true native of Scotland< in referance to Broon the member for kircaddy & broons no they're to defend the good people of Kirkcaldy.
@AuldA, Brussels kept neutral on Scotland. apart from Pres Barosso stating quite categorically that it would be impossible for Scotland to become a EU member. Presumably that statement alone was agreed by Brussels because it had such a massive impact for the giant Bettertogther UKOK fraud.
So here we are, EU BetterTogether with Brussels has to now contend with same rule Britannia Tory boy teamGB/BBC propaganda machine that annihilated Scottish independence or, reap what you sow mofos:D
Bruce and Wallace during the earlier wars of Independence used to take the fight down to England to put pressure on the English who had troubles in Europe and could not afford a fight on two fronts .(The Auld Alliance)
This strategy eventually led to the peace treaty of 1328.
@HeedTracker:
I know, Barroso is a gowk. He is right-winged; the idea of a massively left-winged independent Scotland must be unbearable to him.
I just watched the video from De Gaulle in 1967 again. I imagine him, in 2014, standing on the balcony of the Edinburgh city hall, yelling: « Vive l’Écosse ! Vive l’Écosse libre !! Vive la Vielle alliance et vive la France ». That would be catchy.
The big question is ‘What will Scottish Labours viewpoint be?’
Will they side with UKIP and half the Tories?
or
Will they side with SNP and half the Tories?
I cant wait for BBC Scotland to ask the Leadership nominees their thoughts on this one! Answers came there none I predict.
If it took Ed Miliband a year to decide on the Bedroom Tax then lets hope 3 years is enough for this topic!
Mae Carson, earlier in this comment thread, hit the nail on the head. Is Scotland an equal partner in a union of nations? If we are then we should have veto. If not, then we are a colony. That’s the line of attack NS needs to use against those who oppose her. Equal partner in a union of nations, or colony?
@ Bill McLean at 11.43am
Had my say too! C’mon folks-all aboard -the more the merrier 🙂
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29816342
What a picture! Sturgeon should start thinking under her helmet hair do is a UKIP cracker from Coburn. BBC in Scotland look like they just released their very own UKIP golden boys might well end up with the power to sell off the BBC for a quid to the City and won’t that mean BBC liggers might have to do stuff, like make decent radio and tv.
Again, reap what you sow, teamGB propaganda machine.
wouldnt the UK continue to be a member state of the EU?
isnt it just england who would be leaving the EU and the UK?
I wonder what currency england will use 🙂
Seen today in HoC blinkity blink, kin ah hiv ah pen n set Les.
pen n pincil set Les.
edit edit edit ffs
Things could also be looking up..
New Statesman indicates a hung parliament in the betting (follow the money)
With Labour and Tories sitting between 280-300 seats each.
Recent polls regularly place SNP voting intentions in the low 40% next May which would indicate around 40 seats – just about the right amount for a “coalition of the unwilling”
Now wouldn’t that be fun… SNP block EU exit, SNP take no part in EVEL etc.The press sauf ov the border whipped up by UKIP complaining the Scots are blocking the democratic will of the rest of the UK….. Could have an indyref by early 2016 with the rUK begging to get rid of us.
At the very least its a target worth aiming for
@AuldA
The channel islands are also not members of the EU,and they have many more powers than Scotland.
My mum is a Guernsey girl, and she voted YES as she couldnt understand how a tiny island should have more powers than Scotland!
Brilliant was the first word which sprang to my mind. The article in Wings highlights beautifully the dilemma many individuals and organisations will face.
Well played Nicola, excellent example of Scottish Intelligence and strategic thinking.
I love this one from the BBC comments love-in. True in many ways.
473. martoon196
Great point Nicola Sturgeon.
If we get stuck in the EU because of the jocks after they voted to stay in the UK there’ll be civil war.
Also the Scottish people proved themselves open to bribery and selling their children’s futures for their own short term gain so shouldn’t have a say on England in the EU.
Seems a great way to engineer an emergency Indy 2. However, it relies on England voting to leave the EU. They may not, as much of the comment already made says, it depends on how parties and the MSM line up and campaign.
Before we get to that stage, the Tories have to win WM2015. Labour won’t have a referendum.
However, this whole veto policy has short term value. It gets and attention. It keeps Scotland in the minds of Scots, something which doesn’t always happened. It keeps Scotland in the mind of WM and the London Bubble, which happens rarely!
@Martin Wood
Would be funny to see an English MP raise a motion “Make Scotland Independent”. Im sure the rest of England would soon vote for it if we had them strung up vote wise.
Sadly I think it wont happen as it will be a Unionist party carve up one way or another (cue A.B.SNP tshirts!) or even a Minority Govt as the SNP cannot go into a coalition with the Tories and I cant see Labour and SNP divide ever being made up. Who knows the disgraced Lib Dems might still hang onto a red case or two!
I’m just watching PM’s Questions and it is obvious these idiots that are running the United Kingdom are as thick as those proverbial short planks. For example the Welsh guy asking for the Barnett Formula to provide Wales with the same per capita level of funding as Scotland gets.
Quite obviously this numptie has no idea of what Barnett’s Formula is designed to do. Its main purpose is to finance the devolved powers that the Westminster Establishment has graciously granted to its subservient devolved Parliaments. When Westminster devolves a function to one of the devolved parliaments it also must transfer the funding for that devolved function to run that devolved function but they all have different devolved functions and thus get different per capita funding.
Now, as the three devolved Parliaments all have different devolved functions, that is why their block grants differ on a per capita basis. So how daft is it to ask for the same per capita funding without also taking the devolved functions? So this Welsh idiot quite obviously has no idea of how things work.
Same goes for the numpties, (some of them Scottish), who want the Barnett Formula done away with and the Block Grants just paid on a per capita basis. Labour seem rather prone to not understanding how the system actually is designed to work. If their shadow ministers at Westminster cannot/will not understand this then is it any wonder they are scared to death to vote for independence?
This, of course, is the same lack of understanding that has the English claiming Scotland is subsidised. How many claims have you seen that Scots get a higher per capita funding? Anyone making such claims obviously does not know how Barnett works and it certainly is NOT upon a per capita method.
There is, of course, also the fact that because England gets no block grant then there is no direct way to calculate the actual per capita funding for England and so it’s easy to fool the ignorant.
For example, England has no parliament of her own to be funded only by the English on a per capita basis as Westminster is the Parliament of England and thus the entire UK pays for the Parliament of England. That, of course, includes funding and expenses for their 533 unelected as England MPs who are elected as members of the UK parliament but who also are Country of England members who now want the others banned from voting upon their English Only Matters.
The EU referendum really could go either way.
On one side, you will have big business and probably two thirds of the media. On the other you will have UKIP, the bankers and one third of the media. The elephant in the room is the UK financial sector Unless Cameron secures special powers and exemptions for banks from Europe, then the bankers are royally screwed and London’s economy goes down the tube (can’t have that, can we?).
Cameron has to either secure substantial concessions from Europe, or at least dupe the public into believing that he has. If he fails, we could be out of Europe sooner than you think.
And then there is the difficult issue of immigration, which is bound to rear it’s ugly head (it seems the MSM may be preparing us for this already).
Geeez, things could quickly get really nasty.
The comments BTL on the BBC story show a staggering degree of stupidity and lack of knowledge of the facts. Seems that there is an orchestrated full on attack on Nicola’s credibility – thats one battle they are not going to win though.
Funny that when the Westminster elite see the threat of Scotland having the power to veto a decision they go into full on panic mode. They really don’t like the prospect of having to put up with what we in Scotland have had to put up with for Generations, where Scotland has never had a say in decisions made. they don’t like it up them.
Lab leadership race Neil Findlay MSPs now in the running ,lucky escape fur slim Jim his buddy Davidson briefing against him, Jim s statements imminent soon.Ah canny dey it ave nae support aff ma friends in the Tourghers trough inn.
Just looking at Coburn’s photo on that bbc website. Does he dress himself? Light-green tweed gamekeeper’s jacket, white and purple shirt which just about fits his rhino neck, and a black tie, which he’s probably wearing just to hide the fact that he couldn’t fasten the top button.
So what would happen if, for arguement’s sake, Scotland actually votes to leave the EU and the rUK all vote to stay? Do we have another IndyRef on that basis? Just asking like.
Before we get to that stage, the Tories have to win WM2015. Labour won’t have a referendum.
Which is why all those UKIP voters will vote Tory next year. All Cameron has to do is promise a referendum. Yep, there us a nasty Tory landslide heading down the tracks. Why so many people can’t see this yet, I don’t know.
@Robert Peffers
To be fair to Wales, they always remind me of the sad wean who feels neglected when the good looking one of the family gets aw the attenion.
“Mum, if he got a bike can i get a bike?”
“Shh you, in a minute, your brothers singing”
The little Englanders and unionist trolls are out in force on the BBC article about the four nations having a say on the EU
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29805045
Sootland is not an equal anything in teamGB, right now. The whole core foundation of THE VOW was Cameron, Clegg, Millinand and ofcourse Crash Gordon promising federal UK with devo max but only if you vote NO! And stay British. You mugs.
Which brings it all back to UKOK Britsnats enraged by Sturgeon and Scotland’s non nation state status having already accepted the word of Crash and the Flipper, Daily Record, BBC and all the rest of that merry gang of lying fraudsters.
gordo says 29th October 10:13am
“Noticed our Gary ‘up fur a knighthood’”
Not a hope—-perhaps a British Empire MBE—the BBC in Scotland falls into the “community/local ‘hands on'” bracket.
To quote the requisite requirements:
“An MBE is an award given by the Queen to an individual for outstanding service to the community or local ‘hands on’ service. The definition of MBE is Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire.”
It should be remembered that Northern Ireland has a legal mechanism to veto leaving the EU as things stand and become part of the Republic should their Parliament decide it’s in their best interests to do so.
Given their dislike of all things English anyway and their dependence on the EU it’s conceivable even the Unionists might go for this if for no other reason THEY CAN!
bob sinclair says:
Funny that when the Westminster elite see the threat of Scotland having the power to veto a decision they go into full on panic mode. They really don’t like the prospect of having to put up with what we in Scotland have had to put up with for Generations, where Scotland has never had a say in decisions made. they don’t like it up them.
Indeed. We have been effectively vetoed for 300 years.
I’d rather be out of the EU BUT, the greater goal is independence and for those purposes, whatever way England votes, I’ll be doing the opposite.
Findlay has put his name in. So that’s the union’s guy and a puppet of Miliband so far. Murphy still deep in the bunker we must presume.
well, we’re certainly on a roll.
she has a very sharp and creative mind.
the idea, certainly fits in with my ideals, and i’m very sure the ideals of the majority of scottish voters.
there are now plenty of irons in the fire, with more in the pipeline no doubt.
what a blessed country scotland is.
we have retained and enhanced our passion for social justice.
we have the snp, scottish greens, ssp, et al, and a massive, politically organised, a highly vocal and active grassroots movement (yes alliance). 🙂
I always thought Cameron wanted out of the EU anyway.
Too many human rights acts and all that. Tories don’t like human rights…
UKIP aren’t really that bothered about the EU either way, it’s just a handy vehicle for them to use on route to power, what they’re bothered about is the dreaded “foreigner” “Darkies, Wogs, kikes, smelly Frenchies” etc etc
If you’re not white middle class English you don’t bloody matter, We have an empire you know.
They use the EU as a handy stick to slap the ignorant about, ” if it wasn’t for them lot , you would have your own Bently by now, never mind that you can’t be arsed to go find a job, it’s not your fault it’s someone elses, Vote for us cos you can’t be bothered to educated yourself not too”
@debbiethebruce:
Channel Islands are a brillant example of how more devolution is indeed possible, within the British political system (not the UK).
Some recent developments about immigration:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/28/calais-migrants-willing-to-die-britain-french-mayor-natacha-bouchart-uk-benefits-france
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/29/britain-immigration-system-in-chaos-report-reveals
Don’t forget the Tory promise to ditch the ECHR. If the UK does that then can it be a member of the EU? Something else Nicola may want to clarify.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria
I find it ironic, that David Coburn is protesting Nicola Sturgeon; fighting for his job. You really do wonder about these UKIP people, do they even know what goes on in the real world?
Sorry to go O/T but just listening to Jeremy Vine show and the government minister for veterans was on talking about the military covenant.
When she deigned to pick up on one of the points raised, instead of just telling us how good at her job she was, it was on the subject of prosthetics.
She stated that although the covenant has been around a long time it was only made into law a few years ago and since then has ‘grown legs’. Unfucking believably crass comment.
Are Cameron and Osborne trying to use the threat of an in/out of the EU referendum as a bargaining chip in better terms negotiations? Somehow I think the EU made a preemptive strike with the 2.1 Bn Euro charge.
Given that the UK Govt has done very little about the ill deeds of the bankers and is strenuously fighting to prevent a salary cap, I would think that the rest of the EU has had it up to here with Cameron & Co. I think they will play hardball.
How will Cameron handle that?
Nicola is quite right to set this position. SNP policy needn’t follow the Westminster Separatist parties.
“HUMAN RIGHTS AND THE UNION
One exceptionally tricky aspect of repealing the Human Rights Act is the devolution angle: doing this would make life easier for Westminster and for English councils – but not for the Scottish Parliament, for instance, which would remain bound by the ECHR under the Scotland Act 1998. So when the Conservatives say
We will work with the devolved administrations and legislatures as necessary to make sure there is an effective new settlement across the UK
what they mean is that these proposals potentially unravel another thread in the Union. If these proposals go forward, I imagine the Scottish government will seek the devolution of human rights policy so that it can stay loyal to the ECHR if it wants to – but on its own terms, not terms imposed on its by a UK government which itself rejects those terms.”
From discussion on the Tory policy on Head of Legal website
http://www.headoflegal.com/2014/10/03/full-of-sound-and-fury-on-human-rights/
Cannonfodder 🙂
“Last time I checked Westminster is elected on the basis of the whole of the UK, not just on the basis of voters in England.”
What’s your point? We’re not talking about public opinion in Westminster.
“Having voted Yes in September & for those curious to know about support for an Indy Scotland within the EU,four letters spring to mind. T.T.I.P.”
This is a silly objection. TTIP will be passed within months. 2017 will be far too late to worry about it.
Awe Rev you always have ah sting in the tail ur You ah Scorpion.
@Capella:
You should make clear that ECHR is not linked to the EU in any way. Even if the UK exits from the EU, it is still bound by the ECHR that it signed way before the EU existed.
Ah dont think anybody will be singing TTIP doo daa anytime soon,hope the britnats know the Land of the Free oh fuck anither Rid White n Blue Flag, nae salutes noo jist hand on heart.
@AuldA See Copenhagen criteria for membership to which I linked above but specifically compliance with Human Rights Convention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria#Human_rights
Here in Australia, if a referendum is to be successfully passed not only must it be approved by a majority of the electorate, it must also be carried by a majority of the states. In other words, by four out of six states.
In real terms, this means that the larger, more populous states like New South Wales (7.2 million inhabitants) and Victoria (5.6 m) can be vetoed by any two of the smaller states, such as South Australia (1.7 m) or tiny Tasmania (0.5 m). This is what is referred to as a “double majority.”
Going even more wildly off-topic here, did you know that the state of Western
Australia voted to secede from the rest of Australia in a referendum held
way back in 1933? By a two-thirds majority no less.
However, because Australia was bound by the terms of the Statute of Westminster this enabled the British Government to quite legitimately veto the result and declare the referendum invalid.
@Squaresausage:
Here in Australia, if a referendum is to be successfully passed not only must it be approved by a majority of the electorate, it must also be carried by a majority of the states. In other words, by four out of six states.
The same “double majority” clause is applied in Switzerland.
Desmond@ 1.13, that is how the poor Welsh feel! Mind, during the Ref. the Welsh political page I’m on was very supportive of us, saying we were like the little forgotten red head orphan that finally had a chance at leaving the orphanage. Sadly, we stayed.
“Before we get to that stage, the Tories have to win WM2015. Labour won’t have a referendum.”
You are making the mistake that Labour is a party of principle.
They will be doing a swift U-Turn on an EU referendum as soon as the Tories start moving ahead in the polls.
I know the weeks not finnished yet ,but if we have another slow week like this on WoS am gonna take ah Sun-bat-icle,ah shouls be able to find a wee icle in the sun,whits the bat fur you,s ask, helps ma Athritis, its a brit- nap- bat.
@AuldA see also discussion on the Head of Legal site on the possible effect of ditching the ECHR
http://tinyurl.com/pvegh7c
“For Liberty, Bella Sankey was pessimistic about the UK’s future, under Tory policy:
It’s not clear that we would remain part of the Convention … if you take the paper at its word and then you, obviously, look at the response that we’ve already had from the Council of Europe, it would immediately bring about our exit … which would probably bring about our withdrawal from the Council of Europe, and perhaps even the EU while we’re at it.”
Even tho a referendum on the EU,would be 2017, I think this statement has been a great strategic move by Nicola on a number of fronts.
We are talked about at PMQs today, annoying jocks that we are, sends a friendly message to our supporters in the EU, at a time Cameron is screaming he won’t pay their bill. Also, as she said the WM MPs would table a motion, it shows what a coherent party they are compared to Labour – one focus, on our country.
All at time, when the party of zombies are the Walking Dead.
From The Girniad comments:
“I imagine that Nicola would only agree to a referendum at all if there was a clause that if Scotland voted no there’d be an automatic independence referendum.”
I think what he means is voted no to coming out of the EU. Now, I think I could just about cast a tactical vote in that direction under those circumstances.
@Capella:
Thanks, interesting article.
On Ms Sturgeon’s proposal, any minority of the people of Britain would be able to veto the wishes of the majority. On this proposal, if the 1.6 million people in Northern Ireland voted by a majority of one in favour of staying in the EU, and the people in England and Wales and Scotland voted by huge majorities to come out of the EU, the NI vote would overrule everybody else. I don’t think Ms sturgeon has really thought this through. Do you think that’s democratic?
If this is a sign of what will happen when Nicola replaces Alex Salmond as First Minister of Scotland, then I say, bring it on.
This single point raised by Nicola today, works on so many levels, I’d be here all day explaining them. Really stirring the sh*t for Westminster AND Labour. This one will run and run.
Marvellous. Looking forward to the gig on 22nd at the SSE Hydro.
Hey Will Poddy, did you not get your earse skelped enough over on “Newsnet”.
Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander. Never mind perhaps EVEL will solve the situation, or maybe another “VOW”?
She shoots, she hits cameron in the nuts.
Game on.
Well played Nicola.
And while we are on the subject of playing, is the graphic from Cannon Fodder on the Amiga?
I don’t wish to appear smug, but as a new member of the SNP, may I say, “we are blessed”.
She is a class act and it takes a class act to follow a class act.
@ Will Podmore
Do you think that it is democratic that during the UK General Elections 2010, 16.7% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives and 83.3% of the electorate that didn’t still got a Tory government
Is that democratic? If you don’t, then you should have voted YES in the independence debate as this was one of the issues raised that the majority get a government that it didn’t vote for and to be told “Tough titty, this is how it works”
“plenty of Scots DO want out of the EU – but with a starting base of 45%”
A HUGE assumption that all the 45% are wanting to stay in the EU…
Hi Will – remember me? I’ve said this on Newsnet and I’ll say it again. Still waiting for an answer to my question. In case you’ve forgotten it was this: Which of your grandchildren would you choose to starve to death after having had his benefits removed because he was mentally disabled and unable to defend himself from a UK government hell-bent on dismantling the welfare state and the NHS?
What was that, Will? I couldn’t quite hear you. Oh, now I understand; your grandchildren will be fine because they come from an affluent family; as long as you’re alright you can pretend to be left-wing while still supporting a union which shafts the poor.
You’re a moral coward, Will.
@Craig 7.45pm
Don’t pay Will the compliment of assuming he’s Scottish; he’s the Chief Librarian at the British School of Osteopathy and he lives in Wansted. He knows nothing and cares less about the people of Scotland – just like his unionist masters. He’s a coward and a hypocrite.
Natasha honey – if he’s a librarian he’s probably in the best place, all that heavy lifting, no wonder he takes time out to do some writing of his own. Not very good at it though.
@Truth
I believe it’s Cannon Fodder 2.
There are 2 million UK citizens in the EU and the same amount of EU citizens in the UK. Will this 4m get a vote? Could make a difference if it is close.
“Last time I checked Westminster is elected on the basis of the whole of the UK, not just on the basis of voters in England.”
The last time I checked England and England alone chose the UK Government. Case in point more panda’s in Scotland than Tories yet we have are ruled by an Tory Government forced on us by England.
“I believe it’s Cannon Fodder 2.”
No, the pic is actually CF1.
“A HUGE assumption that all the 45% are wanting to stay in the EU…”
Pay attention. That 45% was in the context of a second INDEPENDENCE referendum.
Westminster and all the forces of the Imperial masters could always campaign for Scotland to vote NO on the strength of a meaningless VOW that Scotland could really stay in, without Defence and Foreign policy which the EU Commission has no powers over anyway. Completely confused. YES. That’s the way to do it. Muddle the International waters.
David Coburn got 122,000 votes (representative?) but proceeds to be the spokesperson of 5.2million people, on behalf of an anti EU Party. The leader of which Fradge picks up £2Million+ a year in expenses etc from the EU Commission. Then complains about the overspending (ie on people like him) of Public money. Fradge has been using the Public money remuneration to fund a political Party, It is illegal in the UK and he won’t be able to do that in an UK election.
I’m hardly surprised, but surely other people must notice the only story on the BBC News website to allow comments is the one about Nicola Sturgeon. Open up the comments page to get a good bit of Scotland/SNP bashing by the right wing mob.
Oddly enough the story about slim Jim doesn’t allow comments?
I wonder why that is???
Craig asks me, “Do you think that it is democratic that during the UK General Elections 2010, 16.7% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives and 83.3% of the electorate that didn’t still got a Tory government?” No, I don’t think that’s democratic. When a 16.7% minority overrules an 83.3% majority, that is not democratic. Similarly, if a Welsh, NI, or Scottish minority overruled a majority of the whole British people, that would not be democratic either. But that is what the SNP is proposing.
Dear Natasha, I chose not to answer your rather nasty hypothetical question, because 1. it is absurd, and 2. I don’t debate with those who can’t conduct a debate without descending to personal abuse.
Dear Will
You chose not to answer my question because it makes you feel uncomfortable to admit that people are starving to death in the UK in the 21st century due to policies implemented by Westminster. You know perfectly well that no Unionist party is interested in reversing those policies or in protecting the poor and vulnerable. Rather than admit that, though, you stick to looking after your own and interfering in the affairs of a nation about which you know nothing and care less. That’s easier than actually doing something about social injustice. You are a moral coward, Will; it’s only abusive if it’s not true. And what you don’t understand is that Yes voters actually want to build a better society because we care about more than just our immediate families and our own comfortable little lives.
http://www.rockhaggis.com/blog/blog1.php/scotland-in-europe
Ahhhhhh but Will, England has the population that can overrule the 3 other nations combined, that is not democracy if Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland all vote to stay in the EU and England votes to pull out.
This is why it’s imperative that all 4 nations should have a veto as it goes against our wishes if one country votes to pull out, David Cameron himself has called it a union of nations.
If you wanted to avoid this impasse, all it was required is to support Scottish independence and then you wouldn’t have us pesky Jocks annoying you and millions of others constantly.
Scotland will have as much difficulty as anywhere else in the UK to convince people to stay in (the EU)so, would you not be better to start campaigning to stay in rather than making the assumption Sturgeon is?
Craig, one person, one vote. In a democracy, all our votes are of equal weight, and the majority decides, not any self-proclaimed separate minority. I disagree with Mr Cameron when he called us a union of nations. Britain has become one nation over the centuries of our union. It is not democracy if a minority can overrule the wishes of the majority, and that’s what Ms Sturgeon proposed.