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Wings Over Scotland


Kounting With Kezia

Posted on July 08, 2016 by

Earlier today we were moved to tweet our scepticism regarding a claim made by the Scottish Labour branch manager Kezia Dugdale, as reported in the Guardian.

kazmajority

Even on the most casual glance, the numbers just didn’t seem to add up. If 62% of Scots voted to stay in the EU and 55% voted to stay in the UK, with no correlation between the two things, then the Venn-diagram intersection between those two groups seems pretty unlikely to add up to more than 50%, let alone a “vast” majority.

So as we like to do, we checked.

Because we had a nagging suspicion that we’d done a poll on that very question, and it turned out we had, exactly a year ago. And in July 2015 this was the answer:

europepoll1

It so happens that Kezia Dugdale’s “vast majority” was in fact less than one third of voters, and not even the most popular single choice (independence inside the EU).

Of course, quite a lot has changed in those 12 months. But all polling since the Brexit vote suggests that it’s changed towards independence, so it would seem even more unlikely that Dugdale is right.

We’ll be doing another poll soon, asking the same question, to find out for sure. But in the meantime readers would be well advised to take Kezia’s pronouncements about statistics, as ever, with a whole pillar of salt.

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Some previous Kezia Dugdale Fact Checks: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]

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    246 to “Kounting With Kezia”

    1. Wulls says:

      Someone described Kezias position recently as akin to that of a roulette ball bouncing around waiting for the wheel to slow down enough to land somewhere.
      I’m more thinking she looks at whatever the media are reporting and Jump straight in.
      Both feet.

    2. TD says:

      Kezia is not so much trying to reflect opinion – she is trying to create it. By stating that the “vast majority” support a particular point of view, she is hoping that it will become true.

      It’s kind of like “if all the children here believe in fairies…”

    3. Hugh Barclay says:

      Can you pass that bucket of salt this way please?

    4. Ken500 says:

      Labour can’t count or read a balance sheet. They support and instigate illegal wars That is why the rest of the UK is in so much debt. Labour hid the the McCrone report under the Offical Secret’s Act and betrayed the electorate. Scotland would have been Independent long ago if they had told the truth. More vulnerable people would be alive. Instead they lied and said Scotland was susidised. Most are useless, greedy, lying individuals. Very few people join the Party. The pool is very small. 2nd rate total rejects. They are responsible for sanctioning vulnerable people and starving them to death.

    5. handclapping says:

      Its Cogito Ergo Sum taken to the Nth degree; only I exist therefore my reality is everybody else’s reality so I can tell them what this reality is … £360m per week to the NHS, £4300 worse off if we Leave, the only way to stay in the EU is to vote No … and it doesn’t matter if its not the same as last year because last year is also a figment of my imagination.

      Is there any way that we can stop politicians becoming politicians? Have them sectioned when they say they want to be a candidate? Kick away the trough? What?

    6. scotsbob says:

      It’s typical Labour PR, use the expression “vast majority” with no supporting statistics or references and some people will believe it.

    7. galamcennalath says:

      “the vast majority of people across Scotland want: in the EU and in the UK”

      I honestly thought Kezia was showing a bit more sense, for a few days there.

      Slipping back into full on Unionist mode, and the thing which marks out all Unionist more than anything else is their wishful thinking that the clock can be wound back. Even if their imagined past is only a myth. In her eyes post IndyRef Scots were in the UK and the EU, so that must have been their will.

      Wrong. While you can’t say NO voters equate to LEAVE voters at all, there is a high probability that the hardcore of BritNats (perhaps 25%) were actually both. Then the sums look much more like Stu’s poll findings.

      Kezia is finding it hard to come to terms with the reality that Scotland will be left with two options once the dust settles. One, Indy. Two, Hard Right Brexit.

    8. Hugh Barclay says:

      Surely folk now know if a Unionist opens their mouth it’s a good way of telling they are lying, plain and simply, Never trust a Unionist….ever.

    9. Dan Huil says:

      Fundilymundily speaking she is clueless.

    10. Dr Jim says:

      But did Scotland’s wee babies that the SNP are leaving behind get a vote
      Coz that’s what Kez is in politics for, the wee babies and the children and the poor and the disadvantaged and the LGBGT and the immigrants and the emigrants and the workers but most of all for the First Ministers all powerful chair and her office

      Sniffle miffle snort

      The secret bit under her breath (I said all that with my big wide eyes djae think they fell for it)

      NAW!

    11. Bob Mack says:

      I stopped listening to Kezia a long time ago. You cannot put faith in someone like that. She has the political stability of a straw stalk in a gale.

    12. Patrick Roden says:

      Kezia says:

      “No, No, No! I can assure you! I’ve looked at the figures really carefully and they show that ‘less than a third’ is in fact the vast majority”

      And another little part of ‘Scottish Labour’ dies inside.

    13. Marcia says:

      When you meet people for the first time and you listen to them, you take their words as meaning what the dictionary definition is. However as time goes on you realise the person emphasises words that does not tally with the literal meaning of the word. In Ms Dugdale’s case she is not using the dictionary meaning of “vast” correctly.

    14. K1 says:

      We’re awash with political party branch managers lacking any credibility in Scotland.

      A kaleidoscopic array of ‘positions’ dependent upon focus group analysis and wishful thinking: their desperation to remain relevant bleeding through every utterance they make.

      How have the likes of Davidson, Dugdale and Rennie ever been taken seriously in Scotland?

      As conservative, labour and libdem respectively, they do not represent the ‘vast majority’ of voters in Scotland.

      Like it or not, they are on the wane, unless they start the process of becoming independent parties in Scotland…their ultra unioinist positioning no longer viable in light of the EU result, they will suffer the consequences of political annihilation.

      We still have to finish the job come 2017 council elections. It is more important than ever to clear the houses come May next year. Labour must be removed, let’s keep our eye on the local as well as our international objectives.

      Dugdale and her ilk will have to choose between her country or her party soon enough. We here have no such ambivalence. Scotland and all her people first, second and last. Always.

    15. Marie Clark says:

      I stopped listening to Kezia a while ago, when I came to the conclusions that she actually does not know what she is talking about.

      SLAB are now looking at the possibility of a federal solution, keeping Scotland within the UK and the EU. That won’t happen, the EU have said as much. We can either be in th UK with all the garbage that will entail, or independent, trading within the EU. One or ‘tother.

      Make your mind up time SLAB.

    16. heedtracker says:

      Red tory yoons desperately clutching at BBC Scotland straws.

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 16h16 hours ago
      BBC News – Brexit: Labour explores ‘federal’ solution for Scotland

      Are they fcuk.

      She’s also wildly on the wrong side of her own party, with Lab membership in England jumping up to over half a million just this week. That’s serious support for Corbyn, as red tories like Dugdale try UKOK bullshiting everyone in Scotland all over again.

    17. Juteman says:

      I read somewhere that the Dug is just back from having the brainwashing implant in the US of A.

    18. Jock Scot says:

      Probably using her ‘magic beans’ again.

    19. yerkitbreeks says:

      I’ve been looking for Alan Cochrane to do some creative writing on this topic – but to my surprise his last Telegraph article was in March.

      Has that paper finally realised he is at odds with almost all Scottish public opinion ?

    20. Les Wilson says:

      The worrying thing about Kez is that all the shite she talks will be compiled by spin doctors. Yes, really!
      They do not have a brain between them, paying some clown to produce the announcements she comes out with is totally destructive on all counts.

    21. mogabee says:

      *I have access to very large drums of salt*

      Must be frustrating to send out all those press releases, when nobody, let alone your mates, believes you!

      Oh well, keeping someone in a job. 🙂

    22. Macart says:

      I see Ms Dugdale is using the branch office calculator again. 🙂

    23. Was Kezia Dugale taught maths at the same school as Jackie Baillie?

    24. Macart says:

      I see Ms Dugdale has been using the branch office calculator again. 🙂

    25. galamcennalath says:

      K1 says:

      “Dugdale and her ilk will have to choose between her country or her party soon enough”

      Yes, and soon is right.

      What if Labour splits? Corbyn isn’t going anywhere and the right in his party have in many ways burnt their bridges. So Dugdale may also have to choose, which party!?

      If the Labour northern branch office have any sense, they will split from the London version(s). If they want to cling onto ‘federal solutions’ for a while, they can. Then when reality sinks in, they can become pro Indy.

      Too much to hope for?

    26. The vast majority of people threw Tom Harris, Jim Murphy, and the rest of the ‘Fucking Useless’ (attr. Labour Shadow Cabinet Spokesperson)40 gravy trainers, out GE May 2015, and reduced wee Kezia’s rubble of a Branch Office of the Usual Suspects (Baillie, Gray, Marra, Kelly, and so on) to a withering husk in third place at the SGE this May.
      She is a massive political failure, yet her words are reported everywhere as though the last 14 months didn’t happen; our MSM grow more sinister and Fifth Column at each passing day. Fuck democracy. WE are the paid stooges of an Occupying Power.Don’t expect us to challenge a Unionist. We’re copy boys, well paid, but cut and pasters nevertherless.
      I see Chubby Cheeks with the winsome grin was on Newsnight last night talking absolute vacuous pish about her views of which Maggie Thatcher clone should rise without trace to be the next Fuhrer.
      Gleefully she announces her waddin’ in that depressingly jolly hockey sticks Girls’ Crystal giggle of hers.
      The BBC PQ Unionist propaganda machine at its best. They got her a wee spot on the Big Boys Currents Affairs programme, so she must be important. Aye, right.
      QT signs off with an unelected Lord (Tony’s flatmate Lord Falconer), some Liberal bint who is a baroness, George Galloway, who has been kicked out of office and is now a walking talking cartoon of himself, a Tory MP who ‘served’ in the Gulf, and Ian Hislop, the ‘conservative’ bad boy satirist.
      No SNP MP, no mention of Scotland. We do not exist to Dimbleby and his Menthorn Production Team, except of course to steal my licence fee to pay for this blatant hegemony beamed North.
      Independence is the only route out of this, and Dugdale’s views on anything is of absolutely no importance.
      But as long as we have such a compliant Fourth Estate, she and Davidson will be front centre, in our faces, like the damp dead wind from the graveyard.

    27. Haggishunter says:

      BBC in Scotland already using the England is Scotland’s biggest trader propaganda.
      Ruth’s nae out of her Kennel yet

    28. Effijy says:

      Look! We don’t call her Dipity Dug for nothing!

      Can you quote anything that she ever said that made sense
      and she didn’t contradict soon afterwards?

      She was the right hand man in the last general election for
      Slab. She predicted a gain of 2 seats in Scotland, on top of
      retaining the 41 seats that they had.

      She “heard” this on the doorsteps of the Nation.

      As you know, Slab got 1 seat, and that only due to the UK OK Media making a mountain out of a mole hill regarding Ian Murray’s SNP opponent.

      Perhaps she thinks Vacillation stops chaffing? lol

      She is just a silly woman in a party devoid of talent or ideas. Labour-the Socialist and Democratic party who don’t like Socialism or Democracy!

    29. Socrates MacSporran says:

      If the vast majority of journalists in Scotland, far less the United Kingdom could do their jobs properly, pish like this from Dippity Dug would never see the light of day.

      Where did you get these figures Ms Dugdale?
      Who conducted the poll?
      What were the questions?
      When was the poll conducted?

      Brandish a print-out of the actual figures

      How can you reach that conclusion from these figures?

      Then you demolish her untruths.

      I am not holding my breath, particularly for the likes of Brewer & Co to do this, they have made a long and successful career from NOT asking the correct questions, particularly of the Unionist parties.

    30. Snode1965 says:

      Placing her poor maths to one side, Kezia must be the only person in Scotland that cannot grasp the fact the UK voted OUT.
      She can no longer back remaining in both…
      Is she that dense?

    31. Jim Mitchell says:

      Credit where it’s due,normally it would be a case of Oor Kez getting instructions from down South on what to say, but as nobody, well unionists anyway, know what’s happening anymore than she does, she must have thought this gem up all by herself!

    32. John Docherty says:

      I, like other commentators saw a chance for Labour to join a populist revolt against the lunacy of Tory and just a small bit to the right UKIP policies. This article has blown that out of the water because the reflective mood of the Scottish people is clearly Independence within Europe and miles away from the horrific hate crimes currently reported south of the border. I could not imagine a worse place to bring up children just now than in these toxic areas of England.

    33. Christina says:

      Would be interesting to have the same poll again now. Though if I can make a humble suggestion: Instead of making it one choice, why not make people rank the scenarios from most preferable to least? That would give a clearer overview of where people really stand in the grand scheme of things.

    34. msean says:

      I’m reminded of that “best of both worlds” slogan that better together used. I’m wondering how exactly that works with brexit.

    35. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      Rumour has it that Kezia is going / has gone to a US State Dept Summer School, for a month, to learn things.

      Not going to publish a link to article but, it is on the CaltonJock website this am

      You Google it, find it and judge.

    36. gordoz says:

      @msean – Exactly

      No chance our honorable press core of North Britain will revisit that part.

      Guys remind us, just exactly how are we better together I forget ??

    37. laukat says:

      The chances of SLab finding a way that Scotland could as federal state within the UK maintain its EU memebership are about the same as Kez getting a new unicorn for her next birthday. However assuming they could how do they ever implement a Federal UK?

      At the very least it would require a Labour UK government which in turn would require a General election. Leaving aside the obvious spanner in the works such as UK Labour adopting this as their policy, trusting Labour to implement a policy and winning a general election there is a more obvious timeline problem.

      Leadsome and May have said no early UK General Election so next UK General Election is 2020. Brexit is probably going to be 2019. So we have a 12 month gap. Therefore how exactly is it possible for Scotland to “remain in the EU and the UK”?

    38. Stoker says:

      Dippy Dug is a pathological liar, just like her former boss DimJim, but will she be publicly challenged on her excremental claptrap by the even greater discredited BBC? I think we all know the answer to that one! Red Tory Tractors, every last one of them!

    39. Valerie says:

      @Jack Collatin 12.24

      ‘like the damp dead wind from the graveyard’

      Spot on. Was there ever a better phrase to characterise the continual shite heaped on us, designed to demoralize a nation?

    40. K1 says:

      gala, indeed so.

      They are confused, to put it mildly, Slab double split in the offing, the unionist agenda is dead in the water in Scotland…landscape altered beyond recognition. There’ll be no federal realignment in the UK, it’s Indy within EU…or tethered to England as they drown singing rule Britannia with ThatcherMay at the helm. If Dugdale doesn’t realise this new landscape is ripe for an independent Labour party to emerge then they/she will merely confirm to a wider audience in light of EU result, what we all already knew…UKLabour decides every aspect of SLab’s policymaking.

      There is nothing authentic about Dugdale. That’s her real problem. They are pawns…red blue and yellow Tories…master’s bidding ‘n aw that.

      It’s all good though as the EU brings this aspect into full public glare in Scotland. The ‘vast majority’ who voted remain in Scotland, will begin tae see what these Unioinsts really are prepared to sacrifice on the altar of party allegiance at a time of National crisis in Scotland: With Thatcher2 on the way it’s going to get affy hard tae justify publicly, staying in the UK.

      Indyref2 will happen and those who would allow Scotland tae remain tied tae a xenophobic inward looking English nationalism on the rise…would do well tae seriously think again about that prospect. They will find no place in our parliament tae call home after we take our independence. They would be on the wrong side of history forever remembered as the selfish career driven short termist’s that we already know them tae be.

    41. Capella says:

      A few minutes ago I posted:
      And her dad’s a teacher too.
      Facile I know.

      But was told I was posting too quickly and it hasn’t appeared. Oh well. This server upgrade does at least mean that I only have to double click into the username and email boxes for the choice to appear. I remember the days when your login details were retained.

      Looking forward to the new poll. I too have met former staunch unionists now resigned to Scotland becoming independent.
      Kezia’s transparent ploy to divert us into a fruitless search for Federalism won’t work now. That was Gordon Brown’s speciality.

    42. Macbeda says:

      She really needs to get a new finger to work her abacus because the old one is worn out persistently giving the finger to Scottish voters.

      She also needs a new battery for her brain cos it’s only working on half power.

    43. Davy says:

      Don’t worry her handmaiden Hothersal will ride to her rescue.

      He will delivery a reply so cunning that another very very very cunning person would believe it.

      And with all the might of labour’s single Scottish MP and the VAST majority of the labour MSP’s (who are currently suspending the backstabbing of their boss because they can’t beat him), (the bastard,) charging behind him to delivery yet another Kezia demand, frankly our goose is cooked.

      Of course the fact that the leave campaign actually won the referendum and the fact the UK will be leaving the EU seems to have escaped the notice of Kezia, still its nice of her to have a dream.

    44. Robert Peffers says:

      @ scotsbob says: 8 July, 2016 at 11:42 am:

      “It’s typical Labour PR, use the expression “vast majority” with no supporting statistics or references and some people will believe it.”

      You have them summed up to a tee, Scotsbob. They have these habits ingrained into them. It’s a bit like the stock clichés of the football pundits. They trot them out at every opportunity.

      Attend a meeting and some Labour lout is sure to yell out, “Point of Order Mr/Ms?Mrs Chairperson”, and it turns out never to be a point of order. No one seems to be able to get through to them that points of order must be about someone breaking the, “Standing Orders”, of the meeting.

      The prime example of that one was when Trish Marwick had James Kelly thrown out of the Chamber after telling him, “Sit down Mr Kelly”. In the first place his point of order was not a point of order. Then it is against Holyrood protocol to be standing when the PO is speaking.

      Then we get the ubiquitous, “At the end of the day”. They all seem to be primed by the same Labour Party in-house instruction manual.

      Perhaps they go on a party training course and get issued with a photocopied crib sheet to learn by rote.

    45. Liz Rannoch says:

      Oh, come on you guys, lay off poor Kezia.

      Simples: 55% + 62% = a vast majority.

      Just don’t try explaining tennis scores to her!

      Come on Murray!

    46. Willie John says:

      Just been checking ebay for pillars of salt but there are none left!

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      @Peter McCulloch says: 8 July, 2016 at 12:17 pm:

      “Was Kezia Dugale taught maths at the same school as Jackie Baillie?”

      I wouldn’t know, Peter. I do, though, suspect she may have been taught by one, other or both ex-teachers who rose to the dizzy heights of Being a London Labour Branch Accounting Unit Leader in Scotland.

    48. galamcennalath says:

      K1 says:

      “tethered to England as they drown singing rule Britannia with ThatcherMay at the helm….. [and] …tied tae a xenophobic inward looking English nationalism on the rise”

      Put that way, it is an indefensible position for anyone other than a hard core wanna-be-Greater-Englander to take for IndyRef2.

    49. galamcennalath says:

      There will be no Brexit. It will be EngWexit. 🙂

      We have two years after Article 50 to get out of the U.K. we can do it!

    50. Tam Jardine says:

      Aside from being wrong on the “majority want Scotland in UK and EU” this one option that labour favour is the one option that is ruled out as soon as article 50 is triggered. So Scottish Labour need to pick another one.

      As they will not support the diametric opposite to their existing position they need to choose:

      Indy Scotland in EU or Scotland in UK outside EU.

      I have written to Kezia asking her to get on board and despite the attempts to deny reality labour are attempting it really is that simple.

      They have a golden opportunity to help shape events and be part of this great new chance- ditch the toxicity of their brand and influence our direction. I hope they are bold enough to ditch the baggage of the past and stand side by side with the SNP and the Greens on a broad platform. It is reaching the point where there is no middle way.

      Malcolm Chisholm and the old guard of labour gets it- this very subject will be getting thrashed out behind closed doors.

      I think there is a way back for Kezia and I do not envy her position. I hope she takes it for her sake and for the sake of the country.

    51. Marconatrix says:

      She´s got the ¨union¨ confused with the ¨intersection¨, what else would you expect from a Unionist!! 🙂

    52. Greannach says:

      What’s the female equivalent of “Low Flying Jimmy”?

    53. Kevin Evans says:

      Yea poor Kez.

      For her and the Scottish branch office to come out for independence would be a coup.

      Labour in Scotland can’t support independence no matter how much they would want too. If they did they would no longer get funded from labour. The Labour Party is founded on a UK wide constitution. The day labour in Scotland say “we support independence” the teet of labour dries up for them and there is no more funding.

      Chucka whoever made this perfectly clear during the GE when he through dim Jim under the bus stating publicly on tv that Scottish labour has no say on UK policy.

      Labour in Scotland can not waver from the UK party line. And there is no way labour under anyone especially Jeremy is going to give labour in Scotland complete autonomy to choose its only constitutional direction.

      It’s never gonna happen.

    54. Valerie says:

      Kez is irrelevant. Just remember she lambasted Corbyn.

      Had a good laugh at the news that chinless wonder Hammond, said he would speak to German ministers about EU nationals issue.

      German response – no he won’t. There are no discussions, formal or informal, until A50.

      GIRFUY, Mr Hammond.

    55. DerekM says:

      Can someone tell her that the status quo has been destroyed not by us but by brexit in England.

      Even Obama has come out and said today that the UK and EU must get brexit sorted asap.

      This idea that we can be in both the EU and remain in the UK that is leaving the EU is pure nonsense from a party that is presently 3rd in Scotland and in chaos in England.

      All they are doing is talking to themselves as usual and do not seem to understand that in the position they are in have zero say in what happens next,therefore any plan they have is as much use as a lib dem manifesto.

      Time to pick a side slabbers or get ignored by both us and your blue tory pals but i would like to remind you what happened last time you chose poorly GE2015,SE2016 shall we continue with our SCE2017 plan hmmm?

      Do yourselves a favour and grab the damn rope we have lowered for you to climb out the abyss and join us in defeating the blue tory scum that chucked you down the abyss in the first place and together we can make Scotland a brighter future with our EU brothers and sisters.

      Well we know you just love all that better together stuff but the question still stands better together with which one the UK 65 mill people and no say or the EU with 500 mill people and our own seats in the EU parliament,the second one is what i call better together.

    56. shiregirl says:

      Yes, Mr Dugdale is/was an English teacher – and a damn fine one too. Kids thought he is was a top teacher when he was at the local school doing supply.

      Shame he doesn’t do maths too.

    57. carjamtic says:

      Dugdale’s insane uttering are not as harmless as they seem,reported widely in the MSM and spreading quicker than a dose of pox at PQ.

      Even so her own supporters must despair,a really poor effort to legimise John Bull and they know it.

    58. msean says:

      I also got a message telling me I am posting too quickly.

    59. Provost Sludden says:

      KT asks if anyone takes the branch office managers seriously. No one does outwith the BBC and our pathetic excuses for newspapers.

      I honestly thought Kezia would have made way for Anas by now.

    60. heedtracker says:

      SLab yoonerati’s pretty mute today, especially from one of SLabour’s primary wreckers. They’re absolutely determined to get student fees in their scotland region. Blair’s made his fortune though. Who says modern day parcels of rogues cant make loadsamoney?

      Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 23h23 hours ago
      Audit Scotland on SNP record on Universities:
      ? Funding cut by 6% since 2011.
      ? Student debt up 14%.
      ? Average debt projected to be £20k.
      64 retweets 44 likes
      Reply Retweet 64
      Like 44

      Blair McDougall Retweeted
      (((Kevin Hague))) ?@kevverage Jul 7 Gifford, Scotland
      amused by those arguing indy wouldn’t damage the 60% of our exports that go to UK but brexit threatens the 14% of our exports that go to EU

    61. Xaracen says:

      OT, “I remember the days when your login details were retained.”

      Hmmm, I’m very much afraid I’m going to be a smug git and smugly mention that my login details are still retained. But I’m even more afraid I’m not afraid enough! 😀

    62. Iain More says:

      What can I say that others haven’t already said about her being an utter imbecile. Baillie did the arithmetic for her no doubt.

      31% of respondents obviously are those Naw bags who want their cake and to eat it. Well inside the UK and inside EU is no longer an option and they must be made to get in touch with reality. That or deprived the vote on the grounds that they have IQs of less than two digits.

      Unless I have got my arithmetic wrong that is less than one in three that support the Dippity Dugs position. I suppose the number master Bailie is the kind of individual that has her cakes and eats them though.

    63. Tinto Chiel says:

      Always remember when Kezia says something authoritative and profound like this that you can always Google it, in her immortal words, to get the full force of it again.

      Probably her CIA chip kicking in.

      Or malfunctioning, of course.

    64. Iain More says:

      OT sort of but still about dodgy arithmetic

      Retweeted jim macred (@smokejack):
      Scotland exported £550 million of Whisky last year
      England exported £2.6 billion of Whisky last year?
      Smell that fish.

      That fish definitely stinks.

    65. Capella says:

      Keverage is amused. I wonder where he gets his export figures from. The difficulties are spelt out in numerous places:

      Most large companies that operate throughout the UK do not record activity separately for Scotland; all that is legally required is for them to report for the UK as a whole. It can be very difficult, if not impossible, to extract financial information for Scotland from their UK figures. This means they often cannot provide information about the trade of goods and services ( i.e. imports and exports) between Scotland and the rest of the UK and rest of the world, and do not need to for UK taxation or National Accounting purposes…

      An additional related definitional issue with trade figures can arise if the situation exists that companies produce goods in Scotland, but sell them on to a trading company in England, say, who then export them.

      http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2005/11/2485808/58104

      The issue hasn’t been resolved. This was raised early on in the Indyref 1 campaign. Oil is, of course, left out because it is ex regio.
      https://fullfact.org/economy/does-scotland-export-twice-much-england-it-does-rest-world/

      Every time a unionist says that Scotland’s trade with England is much greater than that with the rest of the EU it would be useful if the interviewer would ask where they get their figures.

    66. Hugh Barclay says:

      “Kounting” I think you spelled that wrong Stuart 😉

      Just a wee joke there, don’t take it serious noo.

    67. ephemeraldeception says:

      @Iain More,

      Very interesting. I don’t use twitter, do you have some sources for those figures?

      Note: It is not widely known, but ever since Niall Aslens ‘the great deception’ and even taking into account unaudited Gers statistics, it has been shown that the UK continually:

      – Understates Scottish revenue assigning elements to England or UK.
      – Overstates Scottish expenditure, assigning certain spending in England in part to Scotland.

      This is the real reason against FFA as it would expose the cooked books.

    68. Valerie says:

      The farce of Oliver Letwin, chosen to spearhead the crack Brexit unit.

      Marian Hyde, Guardian, on his recent appearance this week at Select Committee.

      ————————0

      Naturally, this wasn’t the metaphor Letwin picked up and ran with. When it was put to him by committee chair Crispin Blunt that he’d been left holding the baby, he replied: “I can only say that the baby is being firmly held, and that my intention is that the baby should prosper, because I care about the baby in question. The baby is, in fact, our country.” Without wishing to get bogged down in the classic infanticidal time travel paradox, the only baby you’d ever want babysat by Oliver Letwin is Oliver Letwin.

    69. DerekM says:

      lol you have to check out Revs twitter feed guys the Jonathan Pie vid in full on youtube is just brilliant even if he looks like he just got out the loony bin lol

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQtcf70i35k&index=1&list=PLmlEcCWytGOchUeH2JPeOMXWwoNaoSrmb

      Here is the full thing lol

    70. Ruby says:

      Blair McDougall Retweeted
      (((Kevin Hague))) ?@kevverage Jul 7 Gifford, Scotland
      amused by those arguing indy wouldn’t damage the 60% of our exports that go to UK but brexit threatens the 14% of our exports that go to EU

      Kevverage should perhaps read

      https://archive.is/hAPiq

      Strathclyde University research.

      ‘A study for the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) compares the trading integration of Scotland and the rest of the UK with that of Ireland and the UK. It concludes that there could be a 5% reduction in the Scottish economy’s output if Scotland were to reduce the extent of its integration to UK-Irish levels. That effect would be seen over two or three decades, so it may only mean about 0.1% reduction in trade each year.
      The research also points out that factors resulting from independence could compensate for that fall in output. The Scottish government has set out plans for growing the Scottish economy more strongly than the rest of the UK.
      Or there might be a boost to trade with the rest of the world. The same ESRC research points to evidence that trade between Scotland and the world beyond Britain has been constrained by such a close integration into the UK, and it suggests there could be compensatory growth there.’

    71. heedtracker says:

      OT sort of but still about dodgy arithmetic

      Doublethink. To knowingly believe in lies, knowing they are false. It’s the heart of the great fraud that is the BBC in Scotland, and every newsroom.

      This latest shite from another lying unionist grotesque is just another example of what we will have to endure for the rest of our Scottish lives, or we can vote YES.

    72. Capella says:

      @ Xaracen – ooh lucky you! Someone once commented that it was something to do with cookies expiring. But I’ve cleared out the cookie cache in the past with no effect. I think it’s just Stu being mean.

    73. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28916642

      “The most recent Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland.

      That’s a lot more than trade with the rest of the world, to which Scotland sold £21.3bn in goods and services, while importing £21.6bn from abroad.

      While UK exports more than doubled in the past 15 years, exports to the rest of the world grew by just over half.

      It’s worth noting that it doesn’t matter that Scotland/Rest of the UK (rUK) trade is not balanced. What matters is that each country has a broad, long-term, trade balance with all of its trading partners combined, or that it’s able to fund a deficit”

      Why does just one more BBC unionist liar NOT include oil and gas, Scottish oil and gas?

      Why is Scottish renewable energy growth potential exclude.

      Why would Brexit England, currently and probably not going round the world negotiating new and exciting trade deals, after stepping out of the world’s richest single market, not want to grow trade with Scotland?

    74. Finn MacKinnon says:

      Wull says (poetically):

      “Someone described Kezias position recently as akin to that of a roulette ball bouncing around waiting for the wheel to slow down enough to land somewhere.”

      I says (unpoetically)

      “I describe Kezias position as akin to that of a turd floating in a crowded swimming pool, mocked, shunned, out of her depth and waiting for the attendant to fish her out.”

      Anyone who takes Kez seriously needs to visit a psychiatrist, how many positions has she had on Corbyn, EU and Independence?

    75. Clapper57 says:

      BREXIT and Indy post Referendums.

      Indy Ref – 45% told to “move on”.

      BREXIT Ref – 62% told to “move on”.

      Spot the difference.

      Does anyone remember Mundell speaking of the 55% in Indy Ref who voted to stay in the UK and who , in his opinion , were being ignored by the SNP. .

      Strange that in Scottish Indy Ref he chose to ignore the 45% and yet promotes the 38% in Scottish BREXIT vote. According to him the UK has spoken so we need to move on and get on with it.

      So folks the only majority Mundell sees as decisive and fair is the one that suits his unionist credentials.

      And remember some of them actually considered the Indy Ref. 55% an overwhelming result…however I am sure they will not use the same term for the 62%.

      #MoveOnGIRFUY

      As to Keiza , the term Dazed & Confused springs to mind on a perpetual basis.

    76. heedtracker says:

      Takes you back. Its not even two years but this fraud alone wasn’t giving it BBC Project Fear shit on Brexit this time.

      “Standard Life in Edinburgh is an example of a company that has 90% of its UK customers outside Scotland, which is why the pensions, savings and investment giant is making plans to move operations south of the Border, if it feels it has to.

      And the issue matters to everyone, as total exports to the rest of the UK and the rest of the world represent more than half of what the Scottish economy produces.
      So the economy of Scotland is very highly integrated with the economy of the rest of the UK.

      As we’ve seen, Scots sell more than twice as much to the rest of the UK as they sell to every other country in the world combined. And that’s why it matters that Scots keep those markets open and trade flowing freely.”

      Doug also hasn’t said where Standard Life’s to move operations south over which Border, if it feels it has to, yet.

    77. seanair says:

      If Standard Life are planning to move from Edinburgh it is strange that they have been flying the Saltire from their building in George Street, Edinburgh, for some time now.

    78. gordoz says:

      O/T – This film from the National about Yoons broken promises

      Def worth a watch (clever presentation)

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/751424825453780993

      twitter.com/ScotNational/status/751424825453780993

    79. Xaracen says:

      @Capella,
      The login cookies expired because the expiry date on them were reached, and WordPress hasn’t refreshed any of them, nor created any new ones. However, in my case I had stored my Firefox profile including the cookies file in preparation for transfer to a new computer.

      When my WoS cookies expired a year or so ago, I retrieved them from the stored profile and, after a bit of Googleing, discovered how to update the expiry date on them and re-insert them into my current profile.

      I don’t have any similar cookies for other browsers, so Firefox is the only browser I have WoS cookies for.

      If you have a saved Firefox profile from the time they relevant cookies were active, they can be restored, and I suspect the same is probably true for other browsers, too.

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      @Valerie says: 8 July, 2016 at 2:14 pm:

      German response – no he won’t. There are no discussions, formal or informal, until A50.

      “About this A50 thingie? Is it perhaps something like a P45 for the unionist parties?

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      @msean says: 8 July, 2016 at 2:26 pm:

      “I also got a message telling me I am posting too quickly.”

      Aye! msean, so did I.

    82. heedtracker says:

      Rancid The Graun

      The first legal attempt to prevent the prime minister initiating Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union is to be heard later this month.

      A high court judge, Mr Justice Cranston, has set 19 July for a preliminary hearing of the judicial review challenge brought on behalf of the British citizen Deir Dos Santos.

      In a separate development, Anthony Eskander, a criminal barrister at Church Court Chambers in London, has posted an opinion arguing that politicians supporting the Vote Leave campaign might have opened themselves up to legal action for alleged misrepresentations over claims that quitting the EU would allow an extra £350m to be spent on the NHS.

      It claims politicians might have committed offences of misconduct in public office by promoting the £350m claim.

      What is article 50?
      This is a clause in the Lisbon Treaty that sets out the legal process for a country notifiying the European Union it intends to withdraw. Once notification is given, negotiations must be concluded within two years – any extension needs the agreement of all EU members.
      During the process, the UK remains a member of the EU, but if talks are not concluded after two years, and not extended, Britain reverts to world trade organisation terms, requiring tariffs to be imposed.
      David Cameron said article 50 should be triggered by his successor – but for other EU countries the UK’s heel-dragging is already causing frustration.”

      Same tory creeps take another 2 months to choose one far right nut job over another and When does our EU citizenship end completely? no one knows.

    83. Robert Peffers says:

      @Xaracen says: 8 July, 2016 at 2:46 pm:

      “OT, Hmmm, I’m very much afraid I’m going to be a smug git and smugly mention that my login details are still retained. But I’m even more afraid I’m not afraid enough!”

      It depends on which browser you use. I have both MS IE and MS Edge. I get retention of details on Edge but not on IE. I expect you could probably reset it in IE via options or tools.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain More says: 8 July, 2016 at 2:50 pm:

      ” … I suppose the number master Bailie is the kind of individual that has her cakes and eats them though.”

      I suspect Baillie is the type who keeps her own cake and eats everyone else’s.

    85. Robert Peffers says:

      @

    86. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 8 July, 2016 at 3:38 pm:

      ” … Someone once commented that it was something to do with cookies expiring. But I’ve cleared out the cookie cache in the past with no effect. I think it’s just Stu being mean.”

      Check out if you can set it up in your browser’s options or your browsers tool tab.

    87. heedtracker says:

      Chilcot’s 2 million words are being read. How Westminster shysters went off to war, with horrific UKOK media all piling in.

      http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/07/damning-new-evidence-reveals-uk-media-lied-us-way-war-iraq/

      Damning new evidence reveals how the UK media lied us all the way to war in Iraq

      Evidence released as part of the Chilcot Inquiry has revealed that the government deliberately manipulated the news agenda in order to take the country to war in Iraq, and the mainstream media were happy to lap up its lies.

      A letter, sent more than a year before war was declared, sets out the government’s media strategy and objectives for ensuring public support for the conflict. Penned by John Williams, the head of news for the Foreign Office, the document was sent to, amongst others, Alastair Campbell at No 10, all ministers and some diplomats.

      The strategy starts with a very telling sentence:

      “The process of preparing media and public opinion for possible action in Iraq is under way.”

      The document recommends that the government should “exploit” interest by “feeding newspapers and broadcasters with information on WMD, diversion of imports for military use, and human rights abuses”.

      However, Williams wasn’t content to just see papers such as The Sun and The Telegraph propagate the party line. He wanted to enforce the message across the mainstream media:

      “The outlets for this information should cross the spectrum, so that we can encourage support from sympathetic newspapers and carry the argument to those likely to criticse our policy. It is as important to force the reality of Saddam’s Iraq on papers like The Guardian, as it is to give papers like The Sun the chance to popularise our case.”

      And now they’ve come for Scottish democracy.

    88. John Edgar says:

      Klueless again. Scotland is being taken out of the EU against its wishes by the rUK.
      Who would want to remain in the rUK? Kezia and her yoon sidekicks are flummoxed. Someone suggested that , as Davidson voted to remain, she should in reality vote against her UK party for taking Scotland out of the EU!!
      We live in contradictory times and the yoon parties are really twisting and turning to remain coherent. They accept the Scottish result and its logical follow through – independence in Europe or they are deemed to be anti Scots, mere satraps of another country.
      What a mess and it will get messier!

    89. Almannysbunnet says:

      All Kezia has to do now is convince Scotland that we are better together in a UK led by the new Maggie Thatcher. SNP bad your way out of that Slabour!

    90. heedtracker says:

      My Slovene girlfriend giving rancid The Graun a btl sovereignty lecture. So as Scottish independence approaches, get ready for a lot of Prof Tomkins style “sharing of sovereignty so why bother,” all across BBC Scotland in particular. Bet chunkychips wishes he/she had never asked.

      Markets rise as US jobs smash forecasts – as it happened
      8 Jul 2016 17:23

      0 Recommend In response to chunkychips

      Briton’s would never do that ever.

      Of course not. The Brits do not understand the concepts of partnership. You only know how to occupy and ruthlessly exploit and boss around other nations while indulging in delusions of grandeur of your nation. You also do not understand what long-term commitment and loyalty to your long-term partners is.

      This 19th-century imperialistic ideology is what makes the UK totally incompatible with other EU members.

      By the way, each time that the UK signs any international treaty or convention (e.g. a trading agreement), this means transfer of a part of sovereignty. But I do not really expect you to understand this.

      If you want the superior glorious UK to be fully sovereign, the UK will have to cancel all international treaties and conventions and leave all international orgnisations, including the United Nations. Namely, the UN conventions are ABOVE the UK parliament and BINDING to it. If you want full sovereignty, the UK should not be in the WTO either. Etc. etc. The most sovereign Brave New Independent UK will have to become MORE isolated than Northern Korea.

      And, that joining the EU was “forever”

      Long-term commitment and loyalty is the only way that such partnerships can work.

      And this is not such a very new principle either:

      The 1707 Treaty of the Union, Article 1:

      “That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and FOREVER AFTER, be united into one kingdom by the Name of Great Britain…”

      As far as I know, the 1707 Treaty is still valid legislation in the UK.

      Responsible nations regard the treaties which they sign and in particular those which lead to substantial entanglement among the partners (= a UNION) as permanent, forevermore (unless something very catastrophic happens; but no such thing happened to the UK in the EU – e.g. other EU members did not occupy the UK or do any similar completely unacceptable thing). Without such permanent and reliable commitment of the signatory states, international treaties and conventions would be meaningless and without any effect.

      And, we didn’t, that’s not what we signed up to in the 70’s.

      Of course joining the EU/EEC meant transfer of a part of the UK’s sovereignty. And by the way, “free movement of people” and “ever closer union” were already there in the Treaty of Rome when the UK begged its way into the EU/EEC.

      The total lack of understanding how the modern world works displayed by quite many Brits on these threads is astonishing.

      Modern world is all about shared sovereignty. The point is that the countries transfer and pool parts of their sovereignty VOLUNTARILY – this is their SOVEREIGN decision. And not by fire and sword and blackmailing, which is the way that the UK is used to settle its international relationships – even in the 21st century,

      Wow, I voted, reluctantly, to remain but the more of your posts I read the more I’m convinced we’re better of out of

      Sure.

      When will you trigger Article 50? And when will you leave the UK?

      Bye bye. Have a nice isolated life.

    91. Jimbo says:

      It looks like Dugdale is hoping to shape opinion rather than react to it.

    92. Jimbo says:

      More a case of impose the Political Party’s will on the people rather than impose the people’s will on the Political Party.

    93. O/T

      Just to reiterate
      3ft x 5ft Saltires with sleeves and eyelets available from the Forward Shop at 186 Argyll Street,in Dunoon PA23 7HA. A cheque made out to YES Cowal of £3.50 gets one (or more at the same price) posted to you by return. If anybody wants just one WEE BLACK BOOK (or Wee Black Book and Wee Blue Book) £1 sent to the same address will get this posted. “Independence The Future Is Ours” light blue wristbands at 20p each

    94. mike cassidy says:

      Info here on the USA programme Kezia Dugdale is attending.

      https://eca.state.gov/ivlp

      According to the article below, also attending are the First Minister’s chief of staff and a Tory MSP

      http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20160703/281728383834739

    95. mike cassidy says:

      And re dugdale goes west

      You don’t apply.

      You get nominated by US Embassy staff.

    96. Macbeda says:

      I’ve sussed it out. They have a new calculator and the hex to decimal button is where the equals button used tobe.

      33 hex is 51. So a third is the vast majority.

      Sorted

    97. Andrew says:

      Kezia is playing games with Ruthie. Ruthie scooped all the unionist votes for the Scottish General Election. Then immediately did a u turn on a 2nd Indy Ref being blocked. So now Kezia has had a brain wave – she can get all her unionists back (although there is no election pending) by insisting she is the unionist party. Unfortunately she is always behind Ruthie with her tactics and by the next election she will no doubt be wrong footed again.

    98. yesindyref2 says:

      The vast majority of people don’t know what a vast majority is.

      Ehhhh …

    99. twathater says:

      And so the lunatics continue and move on, today on BBC arsewipe news Cameron has just committed 600 troops to be stationed in Poland at the request of NATO, to frighten and warn the Russian bear not to try anything, Jesus wept, 1 day after an expensive drawn out waste of time enquiry these armchair warrior ( hawks ) or VULTURES IMO want to carry on as normal and poke the big bear with a stick just to see who has the biggest balls.
      If these diaper wearing mummy’s boys and girls want to rule the playground why don’t they dress themselves in khaki pick up a big gun and fcuk off to Poland and stand guard, it’s easier to send innocent squaddies to do the dirty work, whilst they stay at home and preen and pontificate

      NICOLA, NICOLA, PLEASE GET US OUT OF THIS LUNATIC ASYLUM

    100. HandandShrimp says:

      Not sure that Jackie Baillie’s abacus is up to a Venn diagram.

      🙂

    101. Capella says:

      @ Xaracen @ Robert Peffers
      Thanks for hints on solving cookie probs. Will have a go at that later but for now – listening to R5 live at Wimbledon – Andy Murray v Berdych. Sometimes the commentators interrupt their chat to tell you what’s happening on the court!

    102. scotspine says:

      Eleanor Bradford just insinuated on radio jocko that the Scots Govt tried to cover up that a cancer sufferer received a radiation overdose by releasing a report on a Friday afternoon.

      She is fucking disgraceful.

    103. HandandShrimp says:

      Scotspine

      Bradford’s brand of SNPbad is woeful. Is she back on health? The last time I saw here she was reporting fro some marquee on some ridiculous Queenie birthday celebration (or something similar).

    104. ronnie anderson says:

      hey Rev Your 3rd in the Google searches wie Kounting, of coarse sumbudy wid need tae be bad at speilin tae find it hee hee.

      There,s only wan solution fur that Fraud Kezia Get her oot.

    105. cearc says:

      Macbeda,

      Well spotted!

    106. bugsbunny says:

      Scotspine@16.20pm,

      And the Welsh NHS, (which is controlled by the Welsh Labour Government), has reported that a boy of 8 has died of scurvy, and as he was “homeschooled”, was off everybody’s radar since he was 13 months.

      Now if this was North of the Border Jackie Baillie and Eleanor Bradford would be howling like Banshees shouting SNPBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD, so should we use a stick to attack the Welsh Labour Government? No. We are better than that. We do not use innocent lives to score political points, unlike that shower of contemptible bastards that are “Scottish” Labour. The only fault is the parents. These scumbags can only look to their own reflection if they want to point a finger of guilt at someone. Some folks should be fucking sterilised after such incidents. They are unfit to bring life into this world. Scum.

    107. heedtracker says:

      On UKOK planet toryboy, its even Andy Murray bad.

      euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 2h2 hours ago
      euan mccolm Retweeted Paul Hutcheon
      was just wondering the same thing.euan mccolm added,
      Paul Hutcheon @paulhutcheon
      What’s with all the empty seats on Centre Court for the Murray match?
      0 retweets 2 likes

    108. Ruby says:

      ‘Dugdale said that Ruth Davidson had been right to insist that the UK government should not block a potential second Scottish independence referendum.’

      What I am not getting is why they both think it’s wrong for the UK Gov to block a 2nd referendum yet they want to block it by voting against it at Holyrood.

      How can they justify voting against a second independence referendum if it were called for by the Scottish people.

    109. heedtracker says:

      Yoon culture will freak in their scotland region but that’s two Scots in two Wimbledon finals now!

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36749062

      Gordon Reid has reached the final of the inaugural men’s wheelchair singles event at Wimbledon.

      Reid, 24, beat number two seed Joachim Gerard 7-6 (11-9) 6-4 and will face Stefan Olsson in Sunday’s final.

    110. Capella says:

      Well Andy Murry’s in the Wimbledon Final. re the empty seats were because the crowd had st through a long match and nipped out for something to eat. They came back in between games.

      Wee Murray putdown yesterday from the commentator blog – “blah blah blah – that’s why Andy Murray is very good but not one of the greats”! He’s only no 2 in the world after all. C’mon Andy. Try harder.

    111. Fran says:

      Did we honestly expect anything different from her? Dug and the slab die hards will never come over to Indy, why? Cos in an iS£&%*!@d they would be out a cushy job, not fit to be in a proper parliament with proper grown up powers.

      We talk about a split in the uklab, the EUref could also see a split in slab.

    112. heedtracker says:

      http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-membershi-surge

      Macternan predicts, so Labour aren’t splitting. Must be a worry for Dugdale though. And that big pud Ian Murray ended his red tory career too. Brilliant politicos in action. Bet Macternan advises Murray too.

    113. Iain More says:

      @ephemeraldeception

      It was something that came to me via Stewart Stevenson MSP to my FB page. I don’t do twitter myself either.

    114. Stoker says:

      Never mind ‘Kounting with Kezia’, i quite like this for our movements next indy ref slogan: Yes, count me in!

      A reference to ‘Yes’ to Scottish independence, count me in!
      And/or a reference to the EU, count me in!

      So glad we don’t count on Dippy Dugs Slabbers for our facts, eh!
      There’s a cartoon strip somewhere in there.
      Dippy Dug the Drooling Delinquent!

    115. Grouse Beater says:

      Capella: “Wee Murray putdown yesterday from the commentator blog”

      Did the squit not say Andy was ‘serving above his weight’?

    116. Grouse Beater says:

      Newly moved in from Leeds next door neighbour says, with a big smile…..

      “Brexit fiasco sickens me against Westminster. I’m moving to Scotland- oh wait!”

    117. Dorothy Devine says:

      I think both McEnroe and Hewitt have been singing Andy’s praises – obviously some twat has decided enough is enough and is offering “balance” much like the media has offered “balance ” on Jeremy Corbyn .

      Must admit McEnroe has delighted me by mentioning Iceland several times!

      I love tennis and I may have to assassinate a certain presenter as he witters on throughout the game and obviously thinks he’s awfy smart.

      Bring back Dan Maskell – he never intruded on the match and succeeded without a plethora of boring ,irritating ,pontificating farts.

      As for Ms Bradford I hope she never falls off her bike and ends up in the Southern General which she has miscalled , denigrated and criticised ad nauseam . I think that last scene in carry On Nurse with the daffodil might be the least of her worries.

    118. Ruby says:

      ‘Appealing to Scots who voted to leave the EU to email her directly with their reasons’

      What’s her email address?

      I might have some fun and email her saying I voted leave thinking it meant leaving the UK. Silly me I thought EU stood for English Union.

    119. call me dave says:

      Took the day off from radio shortbread and all things auntie,away with grandchildren to the beach, had a nice day too.

      Anyhoo! Here’s a thing…”quite something” Sturgeon quoted!

      https://archive.is/d7x9t

    120. gordoz says:

      O/T Well, Well, Well …the strange converts eh ??

      @call me dave

      http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1219f41c-4456-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1.html#axzz4DqPIOUCo

    121. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      More than just “quite something” it is astonishing shaky head stuff. What do these people put in their pipes?

      Also, why and why now?

    122. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh my. Dippity Dug is doing a mini-me of El Gordo. Both very willing to propose but utterly unable to dispose.

      Labour are useless fantasists clutching at straws. They just can’t seem to get a grip of anything.

      Buffalo Gal seems to have much the same problem. Who at WM is paying any attention to her right now, do you think? But at least she seems to have enough sense to follow the old adage, “better to say nothing and let people think you might be a fool than to speak out and confirm it”.

    123. gordoz says:

      O/T Apologies for last post

      Sorry link didn’t work … was on SNP twitter site but does not work now.

      Anybody able to capture & post FT times dynamite story from Sir Nicholas Macpherson ???

    124. Iain More says:

      call me dave says:
      8 July, 2016 at 7:47 pm

      Anyhoo! Here’s a thing…”quite something” Sturgeon quoted!

      https://archive.is/d7x9t

      Highly misleading article in my view as Sweden actually had a Referendum on joining the Euro and it was rejected. The Herald neglected to tell us that I noticed.

    125. gordoz says:

      Dynamite story from Sir Nicholas Macpherson in FT.

      Trust Rev Stu will be working up a story on it anyway 🙂

    126. Alastair Wright says:

      When trying to escape the blame for a bad situation, I now use the excuse ‘A Brexiteer did it and ran away’

    127. Grouse Beater says:

      Gordoz: “Dynamite story from Sir Nicholas Macpherson in FT.”

      Worried about his chances of visiting his Scottish investments after independence?

      Nick Nobody: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-17C

      As mentioned in past essays – soon as we have nationhood again, all sorts of scruff, celebs and toffs will claim they really, really, really! supported self-governance but were ‘constrained by the job’ – except ….. Nicholas.

    128. gordoz says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Smells about right since you put it that way 🙂

    129. Thepnr says:

      To put things into some perspective, read what alex salmond had to say on Sir Nicholas Macphersons intervention in the run up to the first referendum.

      Untenable: Calls for top civil servant Sir Nicholas Macpherson to resign over referendum letter

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/untenable-calls-for-top-civil-servant-sir-nicholas-macpherson-to-resign-over-referendum-letter.1315

    130. Thepnr says:

      To put things into some perspective, read what Alex Salmond had to say on Sir Nicholas Macphersons intervention in the run up to the first referendum.

      “Untenable: Calls for top civil servant Sir Nicholas Macpherson to resign over referendum letter”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/untenable-calls-for-top-civil-servant-sir-nicholas-macpherson-to-resign-over-referendum-letter.1315

    131. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Quite Something’ would be a snazzy post title.

    132. carjamtic says:

      O/T

      A View From Across the Pond

      Re: Clinton emails…

      ‘Voting Trump is like a box of chocolates : You’re never sure what you’re gonna get.
      However I’d rather throw the dice on that,than accept a box of turds disguised as chocolates’

      LOL….wait….fukc.

    133. Onwards says:

      msean says:
      8 July, 2016 at 12:44 pm

      I’m reminded of that “best of both worlds” slogan that better together used. I’m wondering how exactly that works with brexit.
      ——-

      It’s a good slogan, as was “Take back control”.
      It would be fantastic to be able to steal them in the future.

      The one way I could see Scotland having the best of both worlds is with access to the single market, when England is out. And maintaining close links to the rest of the UK, perhaps through keeping sterling at first.

      There is a possible federal solution where the EU could make an exception for Scotland joining as a federal nation within the UK, but I don’t see much chance of that happening if London isn’t included.

      The best of both worlds would be a UK confederation of nation states, but don’t see much chance of Westminster backing a friendly form of independence for Scotland, where London would effectively be handing over jobs and investment on a silver platter. Some form of ‘pooling and sharing’ would need to be in place, where the UK became like the EU on a smaller scale.

      The only way I could see something like that happening is if Scotland voted for independence first, and then worked backwards.

    134. Petra says:

      O/T

      Rushing out but just wanted to let you all know that we have a new ‘convert’ to the cause.

      John Hannah who didn’t support Independence for Scotland previously has now changed his mind comparing “Britain to Nazi Germany.”

    135. cearc says:

      Text of FT article,

      The case for Scottish independence looks stronger post-Brexit

      The decision to leave the EU changes terms of debate north of the border, writes Nicholas Macpherson

      The EU referendum last month has raised existential issues of nationality across the British Isles. Applications for Irish passports are at a record level, with even Ian Paisley Jr, the Democratic Unionist MP, tweeting: “My advice is if you are entitled to [a] second passport then take one.” Meanwhile, the pressure for another referendum on Scottish independence is mounting.

      With the UK leaving the EU, there is a golden opportunity for proponents of Scottish independence to reappraise their economic prospectus. Clearly, membership of the EU will lie at the heart of it. That will enable Scotland to have access to the biggest market in the world without the uncertainties that are likely to face the rest of the UK for many years to come. It would also provide a historic opportunity for Edinburgh to develop further as a financial centre, as London-based institutions hedge their bets on the location of staff and activities. If Royal Bank of Scotland, the state-backed bank, relocates its headquarters as part of that process, that would strengthen the long-term sustainability of the Scottish financial sector.

      How quickly an independent Scotland could join the EU is of course highly uncertain. Spain is unlikely to agree to automatic membership because of concerns about secessionist pressures in Catalonia. All the same, the EU has a huge interest in fast-tracking membership for a country whose citizens have been members of the bloc for 43 years and have voted to remain by 62 per cent to 38 per cent. Then there is the question of currency. In the run-up to the 2014 independence referendum, the Scottish National party government missed a trick by advocating a unilateral monetary union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK. The Treasury had had enough problems with fixed currency regimes in the 20th century without wanting to enter into one in the 21st. The history of monetary unions teaches us that they require more political integration rather than less — as the eurozone has discovered to its cost.

      In any case, an independent Scotland would have no interest in seeking to tie its currency to a country that wishes to put more distance between itself and the EU. It is surely time, therefore, for the Scottish government to commit to creating a Scottish pound supported by its own central bank. That would not preclude the monetary authorities of an independent Scotland from shadowing sterling, just as the Danish central bank shadows the euro.
      Brexit business tracker

      Which companies have announced job cuts and profit warnings since the UK voted to leave the EU?

      In the longer term, there could be a case for tying the Scottish pound to the euro. And a long-term commitment to joining the single currency would almost certainly be a requirement of EU membership. But that does not mean Scotland would have to adopt the euro — at least not straight away. Sweden is theoretically obliged to join the single currency. But more than 20 years on from joining the EU, the prospects of its giving up the krona seem vanishingly remote.

      One of the Treasury’s worries in 2014 about the putative monetary union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK was the impact of the oil price cycle. With its own currency, Scotland would be much better placed to respond to an oil shock on the scale of the one that has taken place in the past two years. Interest rates and the Scottish pound could take the strain smoothing any adjustment in the real economy.

      The fall in the oil price from $100 a barrel to under $40 earlier this year is a reminder of the importance of sound public finances. There is no reason why small countries cannot be very successful economically. But generally those that are — Norway and Singapore come to mind — put great effort into establishing fiscal credibility. That generally means running fiscal surpluses in the good times, the better to insure against shocks in the bad times.

      The Treasury was concerned in 2014 that the Scottish government’s prospectus relied on over-optimistic oil price projections. But First Minister Nicola Sturgeon’s administration has since worked to bolster its fiscal credibility.

      John Swinney, Scottish finance secretary until earlier this year, was cautious about using the borrowing powers available under the existing fiscal arrangements. More importantly, he has taken steps to set up Scotland’s own independent fiscal council. There is now a much better opportunity for informed debate about public finances, taking into account changing North Sea oil production levels and wider demographic trends. The Scottish government can strengthen its credibility by setting out long-term plans for public services, public investment and social security, in particular pensions.

      It also has a chance to set out a tax policy for the longer term. An independent Scotland committed to the EU would have an extraordinary opportunity to attract inward investment as well as highly skilled migrants. But, since it will be competing with Ireland, it needs a tax system that is equally competitive. That points to low corporate taxes and keeping marginal rates of income tax down. It may also point to a smaller, more efficient state.

      The aftermath of the EU referendum contains many lessons. Perhaps the most important is that without a plan for what happens next you risk months, if not years, of uncertainty and drift. The Scottish government is in a unique position to take a more far-sighted approach. If it can develop a clear and coherent economic strategy ahead of any future referendum, it not only stands a better chance of winning it will also increase the probability that an independent Scotland inside the EU can hit the ground running.

      The writer was permanent secretary to the Treasury and is now visiting professor at King’s College London
      Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2016. All rights reserved. You may share using our article tools. Please don’t cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

      Apologies to FT but the share article link doesn’t seem to be working anymore.

    136. Cadogan Enright says:

      OK guys, I need your help

      Will Podmore, our favorite troll, is writing to the Irish News, a paper in which I have letters published several times a year.

      I an willing to donate £5 to GA Ponsonby for every quote you can give me from a European leader favourable to Scotland staying in the EU since the Brexit vote to add to the end of this draft letter

      Sir

      I was some astonishment I read another letter in the Irish News from Will Podmore of Wanstead in London writing more piffle about the SNP and Scotland.

      If you ‘google’ “Will Podmore, Scotland” you will see that he appears to be a full-time troll on Scottish websites, repeating untruths and generally being disagreeable, apparently on a full-time basis.

      It is extraordinary that he also has the energy to write to all the Irish newspapers about Scotland. I have seen suggestions that he may be a group of people acting in concert. Its impossible to prove this one way or the other in an on-line world.

      It is not worth replying to the nonsense he wrote to the Irish News, as if you went on line and googled his name, you would see the same nonsense on every Scottish website where better people that me have demolished all his quasi-facts.

      Regarding the central premise of his letter; that Scotland would find it impossible to transition into the EU either while in the UK, or after another Independence referendum, here are a few fact-lets from the real world.. . . . .

      (Maybe we should stop at 10 – as if Kezia is reading this, she will have run out of fingers??)

      Meanwhile, I will have a look in the other Irish Newspapers to see if Will is getting in those as well

    137. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Onwards @ 20:52

      There is a possible federal solution where the EU could make an exception for Scotland joining as a federal nation within the UK

      Sorry, but this is pure undigested Labour fantasy. The EU are not going to accept any such fudge. Being a member of the EU is like being pregnant, you either are or you ain’t – you can’t be a little bit of both.

      The sooner we in Scotland understand and accept this, the sooner we can move on to a more realistic solution. (And we here know what that is.)

    138. Macart says:

      Well, well, well! Old Sir Nick throwing a brick in the pond.

      You don’t suppose he’s anticipating the way the wind is set to blow for the UK economy do you? I mean he’ll still have those ‘Scottish interests’ and the thought of a Scotland still attached to the EU market, capital flight to Edinburgh and a Scottish central bank ‘NOT’ tied to the shoogly Sterling currency might look somewhat appealing to him about now. 🙂

    139. john young says:

      Where is fat arse Broonie now that Chilcot has delivered,he is one of the worst of the worst.

    140. cearc says:

      This is also a good FT read today and is a ‘free to read’ article.

      https://next.ft.com/content/9c746d04-4456-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1?segid=0100320

      Harsh realities of a weakened pound
      Sterling’s malaise set to hit households harder than they expect

    141. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Does anyone remember if Will The Podmore stopped coming here, or was he bagged?

      Not that I’m bothered mightily, but it’s always interesting to know what ‘stops’ the auld hope-in-yer-souls.

    142. cearc says:

      The picture on the Macpherson article is great.

      See if this works

      https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2F99e221f6-451b-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=700

      Unicorn broken free and leaping the crumbling UK fence.

    143. Ken500 says:

      The cost of production (which still benefits Scotland) would have to be deducted to realise the profit figures of what Scotland earns the trade. If Scotland exports more than it imports Scotland is in credit and doesn’t have a balance of trade deficit or net borrowing. Scotland balances the books, and is in surplus. The rest of the UK is not.

      The rest of the UK borrows and spends more than Scotland £75Billion a year + £20Billion (black hole – ‘growth’?). The money is not borrowed or spent in Scotland but Scotland has to pay repayments on the debt. Approx £4Billion a year.

      For the last 5 years Scotland has lost on average approx £4Billion+ in Oil tax revenues a year, and lost thousands of jobs, because Osbourne has taxed the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. In total Scotland had lost £20Billions +. That would have increased the export figures. Scotland raises £54Billion last year, without Oil. Still raised 54Billion the year before, including£4Billion of Oil revenues.

      Scotland raises £10Billion more in tax revenues pro rata than the rest of the UK. Westminster spends Scottish tax revenues on Trident/illegal wars, no tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, grotesque projects the majority do not want, nuclear etc. Against the majority wishes and the public interests. ££Billions which could be better spent on alternate cost effective projects, essential services and vulnerable people.

      Scotland receives £Billions in investment from the EU and the (European) banks for renewable projects and grants. Westminster indecision prevents Scotland the opportunity for EU Grants. Westminster took extra EU payments made to Scottish farmers and gave the funds to framers in England.

    144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cearc,
      Many thanks for that interesting article. By Old Nick himsel’, no less. Who would have thunk it?

      I believe he’s correct about the currency issue. We should be aiming for our own currency (the Scots Merk) which would initially be tied to the pound for a relatively short period for ease of transition. After that, all options are open.

      The only quibble I have is with his slightly arrogant statement about Scotland having to join the EU, since we are already in it. But I can allow for a certain shorthand there, since some kind of negotiation would be necessary.

      I’m still taken aback, though. Could he possibly be a shocked Remainer who is now looking for a better future up here with us? =laugh=

      No doubt even more unlikely conversions to “yes” are on their way…

    145. Macart says:

      @Ian B

      RE: our regular unionist posters

      Well they’ve had a rather trying two or three weeks between Brexit and Chilcot.

      All that pretendy better togetherness doesn’t really sit well with broken campaign pledges and illegal wars.

      *Pours another relaxing dram of toilet duck*

    146. Ken500 says:

      Some Unionists are also ignorant of tennis etiquette. Once play has started spectators are not allowed to take their seats until an appropriate break in play. In order not to disrupt the match or distract the players concentration. The empty seats were soon ovvupied, after spectators had to wait for a break in the game to enter. There are far more people want to watch the games than tickets can be allocated. People have to make a application. The allocation is a lottery. Tickets can be bought on websites at much higher values. People who get tickets and pay expenses to go can find the games rained off in the outer courts.

    147. stewartb says:

      Onwards @8.52 states:

      “There is a possible federal solution where the EU could make an exception for Scotland joining as a federal nation within the UK, but I don’t see much chance of that happening if London isn’t included.”

      Where to start? The very notion that the British establishment would commit to such a radical change in the structure of the UK is risible – it won’t even abolish or reform the House of Lords; it won’t reform the FPTP voting system; it introduces EVEL, hardly a positive response, the day after Yes lost Indyref 1; the Commons ignored all amendments from Scottish MPs to the Scotland Bill etc.

      Regardless of what kind of solution to our membership may be acceptable to the EU, I for one am not looking for a constitutional fudge that (just) permits Scotland to remain in the EU. And in any case, in my view, any EU settlement negotiated for a newly independent Scotland needs to be endorsed by the Scottish electorate at an ‘appropriate’ time.

      Independence is for much more than EU membership, and more than any federal structure for the UK can deliver – no Trident on the Clyde; no more seeking to ‘punch above our weight’ through aggressive, militaristic (and failed) foreign policy; Scotland choosing its own alliances; and always getting a government that Scotland votes for which controls ALL the many matters that other small independent countries such as Norway, Denmark, New Zealand etc. take for granted. And this could include, if we decide, a second elected chamber of a Scottish parliament, and so not subject to the HoL in a federated UK state.

      As I have posted before, we need an as clear cut as possible independence objective – any reliance on a Westminster ‘gift’ (a negotiated devo-supermax or whatever it might be called), based on track record, will not end well.

    148. Almannysbunnet says:

      Cadogan Enright says:9:04 pm
      OK guys, I need your help

      Will Podmore, Wanstead, Chief Librarian. I think this is your man.

      http://www.facebook.com/will.podmore/about

      He seems to spend his time writing letters to newspapers in Wales, Ireland, England and Scotland. Most of it bashing Scottish independence and a lot about the glories of Brexit. Not sure you’ll gain much by chasing him around but good luck.

    149. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Macart –

      🙂

      Watch that Toilet Duck stuff – if you’re not careful it’ll drive you round the bend.

      BOOM BOOM!

    150. Ian Brotherhood says:

      My last submission prompted the following:

      *YOU ARE DRINKING TOILET DUCK TOO QUICKLY. SLOW DOWN.*

    151. Thepnr says:

      @Macart

      All out of toilet duck in this household. Been a while, ah the old days 🙂

    152. carjamtic says:

      Macart

      Sick

      LOL

      😉

    153. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The good thing about Toilet Duck is you don’t ever have to worry about floaters.

      *gives self dry-boak* 🙁

    154. Grouse Beater says:

      With serious gabion garden construction Saturday, Sunday dedicated to Murray and footie final, this will have to cover the weekend essay: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7HY

      Or this if you like fun cars, one Stuart has just bought: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7CN

    155. Ken500 says:

      Nicholas MacPherson doesn’t want the value of his i(inheritable) Estate to crash. Self centred as usual. He did not give a damn about the people in Scotland or austerity, when he was being paid by the UK Gov. He changes his tune when it comes to protecting his interest. A total parasite.

      His mate Cameron crashed the world economy. The Tories broke electoral funding rules and should not have won the GE. Fraud in 29 seats. 12 Majority. The SNP should have held the balance of power and could have stopped the mess from happening. If Labour had wisened up. Unlikely.

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – from the Herald

      Thieves make off with cash machine containing “significant” sum of money hours after gates open at T in the Park

      Well it does say on the machine “cash on the move”.

    157. TJenny says:

      Macart – *Pours another relaxing dram of toilet duck*, whilst munching chocolate raisins. 🙂 (We know you so well).

    158. Tam Jardine says:

      stewartb

      Exactly my thinking. The time for constitutional fudges and compromises is over. Devo-max, home rule, federalism- these are dead terms now.

    159. Almannysbunnet says:

      @Cadogan Enright says:9:04 pm
      OK guys, I need your help
      Will Podmore, Wanstead, Chief Librarian. I think this is your man.
      http://www.facebook.com/will.podmore/about

      Ok after checking his facebook timeline this is definitely the dude! Go back to 2014, left wing labourite, virulent anti yesser anti SNP. Quoter of Prof Thomkins, spreader of all the standard misinformation that was doing the rounds back then and has since been trashed in the wee black book. I assume his fixation in denying Scotland independence is just an inbuilt labour trait.

      No doubt if we have indyref2 he will reappear on wings.

    160. Kenny says:

      I do agree about the need for an independent currency (the Merk). Because it will also be great to commission designs for it, a perfect way to showcase Scottish design and innovation.

      It seems crazy to become independent… and tie our currency to our neighbour, especially as I am convinced the act of leaving the UK will sink the UK’s finances completely.

      If it suits our purpose, we can later hold an informed debate about whether to join the euro, adopt the rUK pound, enter a currency union with Norway… anything. That is the joy of being INDEPENDENT!

      Does anyone remember the high interest rates in the 1980s to cool the overheated south English economy, when the very opposite was needed for Scotland? It makes as much sense to tie us to England as it does to tie us to North Korea or the Central African Republic!

      As for joining the EU, what is the problem? Even if we have to leave and rejoin (which we WILL be able to do, of course), we just take a copy of the UK’s membership document and everywhere replace “UK” with “Scotland”. We already have all the laws in place anyway…

      I similarly hope we can hold informed debates (thankfully, no longer hosted by the BBC, hurrah!) about whether we should join NATO, join the EU, have a monarchy, etc… and then vote in a referendum. I would also hope we have consensus in a new Scotland. For example, if a referendum result was to be 55-45 or narrower, then that should be a signal for the need of both sides to work to a common goal.*

      * For example, EU ref — should mean both the EU reforms itself to take into account all Leave’s issues, while UK agrees to think over staying in a reformed EU (but let’s have it all in writing). Or in indyref1 it should have course led to the promised FFA, federalism, everything devolved but defence and foreign policy (and with Scotland’s voice heard in these as well).

      In a new Scotland, there will still be people who are attached to the war memories and various other things. People who voted NO should be respected and even if/when YES wins we must be very sure to start out as a unified nation in which every side has to take steps towards the other, as we all have to live in the same country…

    161. Macart says:

      Hoisted by my own canard. 😮

      Right o then! Moving onto proper drams it is. 😀

      Anyroads, I’ve noticed across a spread of sites that our regular visitors have been ‘unusually’ quiet. I’m suspecting the usual pish pseudo ideologies pumped oot by these individuals simply don’t match up to folk caring about other folk and their government without the need for parties telling us how we should go about that. They’re too busy selling party lines to consider that party dogma and ideologies don’t solve problems. The meeja certainly don’t.

      Only people who care do.

    162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Somewhat O/T, but I would just like to extend a warm personal welcome to all those UK Civil Service “lurkers” out there, not least those in the Cabinet Office.

      It must be quite a trying time at the moment having to rustle up some kind of coherent post-Brexit strategy for your political masters, who are rather funking it. (So what’s new, eh?) Your visits here can no doubt be rather trying at times, but I dare say occasionally helpful also, especially now that all options are open.

      You guys and gals of the Civil Service are astute people, so right now I expect you are beginning to realise that Scottish independence is going to happen, it’s merely a question of how and when. So here is a suggestion for you to help things along. You are already going to have your work cut out sorting out an absolutely vast post-Brexit mess without having to deal with all those niggly Scottish side-issues as well which will only further complicate matters. So work out (or resurrect?) a proposal for a sensible Anglo-Scottish deal based on an uncontested separation that will only require a Scottish assent referendum to seal the deal.

      Pass the worked-out plan on to your new chief honchess with the recommendation that she get on the phone to ours soonest and make this deal happen. A smooth and fast transition is still possible, and will be in everyone’s interest. England and Scotland will be able to take to their chosen different new paths with the least amount of entanglement. No unpleasantness, no bitterness, still friends and good neighbours.

      You know this is right. Go at it, and good luck!

    163. Stoker says:

      @ IanB, Cadogan Enright and others

      Podmore is nothing more than an attention seeker, exposed here on WOS many moons ago. He claims (or used to) to be a communist but there is far less shite coming out of the Glasgow sewers.

      Remember Natasha who hasn’t posted here for some considerable time? She was Wee Willie Wolfs nemesis. The very sight of her name on a post had him running for cover.

      Cadogan, don’t waste yer energy, his country is in the mess it’s in because cretinous throwbacks such as Podmore spend more time with their noses in the affairs of others.

      The last i heard of him (i think?) the Rev had sin binned him.
      He was put into pre moderation, at least i think it was him!

      Sling him and all the other trolls a deefy!

      Goodnight troops!

    164. John from Fife says:

      Haven’t posted recently but got the posting too fast message – Hacking problems ?
      Anyway
      The SG must get the legislation passed for Indy Ref 2 at a time of choosing. They have to be ready for the next step whenever it happens.
      It’s also time to ask for supporting proof when the Unionists start the £15B black hole.

    165. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert J. Sutherland.

      Why the Merk and not the Scots Pound?

      “The merk was a Scottish silver coin. Originally the same word as a money mark of silver, the merk was in circulation at the end of the 16th century and in the 17th century. It was originally valued at 13s 4d (exactly ? of a pound Scots…”

      That’s from:-
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merk_(coin)

      Personally, I’d rather have a Scots Pound, than 2/3 of a Scots Pound. More sports socks for a Scots Pound…

      8=)

    166. Macart says:

      @TJenny

      Just the odd bag or two… or three.

    167. Ian Brotherhood says:

      McPherson’s showing his skirts, and he really really shouldn’t.

      You wouldn’t want plebs getting the idea that the real managers of the state are not those appearing in the HOC.

      Here’s a wee gem from yesteryear, featuring Robin Day and some ‘here-today-gone-tomorrow’ politico who makes Gove look positively macho…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln3SpXXYTHY

    168. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TJenny (10.05) –

      Methinks you have (unintentionally?) created the most outrageously disgusting image ever witnessed on this site.

      More power to ye!

      🙂

    169. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      Why the Merk? Because it was once genuine Scots currency, and the “pound” sounds too cringy and copycat to me. I still have the image of AS trying to convince people it was “oor poond”. He was correct, of course, but still, it played very badly.

      I think we should be more assertive about our own currency as with everything else. A Merk (ouch!) of our self confidence in our future.

    170. Macbeda says:

      I rather like the idea of a Merk.

      It may appeal to the Germans as it would remind them of what they lost (Mark) and they might buy them for old times sake.

      If you want the Scots Pound then so be it. We already produce them according to English people I know. They then say the Scots Pound is only only worth 95p. I’ve tried to explain but to no avail.

      Just not the Pound Sterling cos I think it’s going doon the stank.

    171. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Brian DTT, have to confess I rather like the Merk too. I know (and knew prior to this thread) it was a coin as aprt of a pound scots, but it has a certain ring to it. Some link to Europe with the D Mark and also Scots with Merk being an area of land. Certainly worthy of consideration. And a distinctive name too, not to be confused with Pounds Scots or the Pound of EWIland.

    172. heedtracker says:

      Two cheeks of the same arse

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963

      European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be “extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the European Union, shreiked the delighted BBC gits 2014.

      But el presidente is now, according to FT

      “Goldman Sachs has hired the former head of the European Commission José Manuel Barroso to help it through the fallout from the UK’s shock decision to quit the EU.

      The Wall Street investment bank announced on Friday that Mr Barroso is joining as non-executive chairman of London-based Goldman Sachs International (GSI), the bank’s largest subsidiary. He will also be an adviser.

      Mr Barroso, who presided over the commission for a decade, told the Financial Times that he will do what he can to “mitigate the negative effects” of the Brexit decision. If the UK loses access to the EU single market, US banks may need to move big parts of their large European businesses out of London.”

      Why not? Flipper Darling’s on Morgan Freeman board of masters of the universe.

      Goldman Sacs is a horrifying bank too. Brexit must really be squeaky bum time for that crew of gangsters.

    173. Proud Cybernat says:

      Kez sez and it gets in the headz (s’why it’s called head-lines). That’s all that matters in the game. The numpties see it and believe it. Job done.

      “Coz it was in the paypurs an’ it wiz oan the BBC so it must be true.”

      That’s how they operate; targeting the weak minded.

    174. Clootie says:

      “Scottish Labour Party studies have shown that accurate data is of little use in comparison to the numbers you make up!”
      Kezia Dugdale

    175. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh, Brian Doonthetoon, I should add that the choice of name has nothing to do with its historic value, as you kindly referenced. It would be pound-equivalent to start with, then before long would surely rise in value while the post-Brexit pound sterling goes down the drain!

    176. crazycat says:

      @ Cadogan Enright

      If I understood you correctly, you weren’t looking for information on Podmore, but a list of references to refute him.

      I have 3 large files of copy-and-paste items I want to preserve, and have only looked through one of them so far, but I think the things I found may be nearly all that I’ve got.

      Is this the sort of thing?:

      http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/slovak-leader-promises-help-with-velvet-divorce-r6hp6p6fc
      ‘The European Union’s next president has offered to help broker the divorce between Scotland and the rest of the UK should voters elect to dissolve the Union over disagreement on Brexit.
      Robert Fico, the prime minister of Slovakia, who is due to take over the EU’s rotating presidency on Monday, said his diplomats would help to negotiate an amicable separation modelled on the so-called velvet divorce that resulted in the break up of Czechoslovakia in 1993 if Scotland decides to leave the UK in order to stay in the EU.’

      ‘Talks over keeping an independent Scotland in the EU have taken place, a Brussels insider has revealed.’ http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14591627.Brussels_considered__holding_pen__to_keep_Scotland_in_EU__insider_says/?ref=ar

      The Czech Consul General is, I think, the first EU diplomat to say in public that he supports Scottish independence.
      https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/750294314518020096

      Austrian consul “it is clear that were Scotland to be independent, it would be welcome in the EU. There would be no question about that.”
      https://twitter.com/Sneekyboy/status/750603329345036288

    177. cearc says:

      Robert J, Sutherland

      I have always thought that we should have our own pound/merk pegged initially to GBP until it drops to parity with the euro and then switching the peg to euro.

      The way things are going it will more likely be until GBP rises to parity!

      I think the shared pound idea re 2014 was more Salmond’s wanting to make Indy seem less disruptive rather than the best option. Also it would have prevented a sharp drop in the pound when the extent of Scotland’s assets were realised.

      I think we all need to be feeding the idea of Scot’s currency to people in our everyday conversations. For older people, well it is no more difficult than decimalisation was and probably a lot easier now that everywhere uses electronic tills which can show the ‘old money’ as well for reference.

    178. heedtracker says:

      Brexit wakes bulls

      http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/26/goldman-sachs-forecasts-uk-recession-in-2017-downgrades-global-growth-forecasts.html

      Barosso hasn’t got a clue either.

      “Mr Barroso would not speculate on whether banks based in the UK would be able to continue to use their UK licences to do business in the EU’s financial markets, a process known as passporting.

      If the UK loses its right to grant passports, banks will have to find another EU country willing to regulate — and able to support — some of their most complex activities.

      “We don’t know now exactly what will be the final outcome of negotiations,” Mr Barroso said, describing the passporting issue as “one of the most difficult and sensitive matters for the negotiation”.

      EU cuts City spivs a passport deal for future tory nutters like May, currently threatening mass deportations from teamGB?

      Oh to be a toryboy.

    179. call me dave says:

      Andrea Leadsom created a storm of protest tonight in a speech / interview where she gets involved in mentioning how Theresa May has no children etc etc. Radio 5: It’s obviously going to be in the papers tomorrow.

      Where have we heard similar in the Scottish context. 🙁

      I think if true she has just blown it big time.

    180. heedtracker says:

      Looks like Andrea Leadsom won the BetterTogether Slovenia branch vote. Trust Prof Tomkins to go for the religious crack pot liar that thinks God talks to her.

      The Guardian view on women at the top: not the same as equality

      8 Jul 2016 19:29
      5 Recommend
      To be ruled by women?

      It seems to me that the UK has at the moment some more serious problems to consider than the issue of gender in politics.

      The next UK’s PM will have to resolve a major national crisis. So the UK should have a very strong states(wo)man on this position, with excellent experiences, great knowledge, moral authority and international credibility (regardless of gender).

      As things stand, Theresa/Andrea will be sitting on one side of the negotiating table and the PMs/presidents of the other 27 EU members plus Tusk and Juncker on the other side.

      Popcorn ready.

      Go Andrea!

      The people of the EU-27 want YOU at the negotiating table! You know you can do it.

    181. cearc says:

      It really is hopeless having comments only appearing in blocks every half hour or so.

      Some upgrade!

    182. Marcia says:

      call me dave

      Murdoch wants May as PM so will stoop at anything to further that aim. The other woman is complaining she was misquoted. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack. 🙂

    183. Ghillie says:

      Kezia is like the boy who cried wolf.

      If she ever EVER managed to say something akin to the truth or even close to accurate, no body would believe her. Sad.

    184. ronnie anderson says:

      Ah go away fur ah wee while an whit happens, half the posters hiv went Quackers oan toilet duck. Is this ah new craze on Wings lol.

    185. Thepnr says:

      @Marcia

      I’ve no doubt you are right re Murdoch and May. Yes, can’t you just smell the democracy?

    186. cearc says:

      Cadogan,

      Guy Verhofstadt, President of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe

      https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/746302049927708672

      On June 24th. he also said, ‘In last 8 hours, UK lost $350bn, which is a greater amount than they contributed to EU budget over last 15 years – including rebate’

      Rebecca Harms The Co-President of the Greens/EFA group0: We will not let Scotland down

      http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/interview/rebecca-harms-we-will-not-let-scotland-down/

      A tad cagey/diplomatic there but…

    187. Chic McGregor says:

      @HandandShrimp
      “Not sure that Jackie Baillie’s abacus is up to a Venn diagram.”

      I think she is more into pie charts.

    188. heedtracker says:

      All the tory leadership contestants need do, is ask John Nostradamus Macternan to predict the winner.

    189. cearc says:

      Cadogan,

      PS. Verhofstadt was the Belgium PM who refused to go in into Iraq.

    190. crazycat says:

      @ cearc

      It would be helpful if Cadogan could indicate that he has seen your post at 11.26 and mine at 10.44.

      Does anyone have a way of contacting him directly?

    191. cearc says:

      Cadogan,

      Given the speed at which the ‘transitional holding pen’ was mentioned by Dr. Kirsty Hughes, I think it is reasonable to assume that this was a fully worked out contingency plan in 2014!

    192. Robert Louis says:

      Totally agree with suggestions for Scottish pound. Set it up now, notionally, so folks get used to the idea. Peg it to sterling. No reason not to.

      Once it exists, and is already talked about, a major psychological and practical hurdle is crossed. Get to it Scottish Government.

    193. Thepnr says:

      Well that’s Friday almost over and as I said on Wednesday the silence would be deafening by today. Not the Forth road bridge though is it.

      The UK government, press and media are…. Fill in the blanks.

    194. heedtracker says:

      The UK government, press and media are…. Fill in the blanks.

      Once upon a time, this used to be the silly season, a few months of summer time frivolity. So they’ve even managed to UKOK screw that up.

    195. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Ach well, I stimulated some discussion! Personally, I like “Merk” but there seems to be no historical justification.

    196. cearc says:

      crazycat,

      He’ll see them and yes he is easily contactable with website, domain, FB etc. in his own name.

    197. Iain More says:

      Well I have written more than once to my SNP MP and MSP plus Swinney about getting a Scots currency up and ready to go. I don’t want to living through an Indy Ref 1 again.

    198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cearc @ 23:26,
      That quote from Verhofstadt is priceless!

      There goes the NHS and the fishers. (But they weren’t promised anything anyway, sez Farage before he ducked out.) That’s just for starters – quwhat next?

      Oh, but wait. It can’t possibly be true, the BBC say it’s a canard, and everything is actually waddling along quite nicely. Swimmingly, even. We don’t actually need a new PM until after the hols. Crisis, quwhat crisis?

      Leavers may be feeling increasingly queasy, but what’s diving down their toilet isn’t cleaning product, it’s the pound.

    199. crazycat says:

      @ cearc

      Thanks; I don’t do social media, but if he hasn’t posted anything here in the next 24 hours, I’ll try to reach him some other way.

    200. defo says:

      Not O/T
      Murdo Fraser “There are disparities in the way that different parts of our United Kingdom act and think politically.”
      I think they are finally cottoning on.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36747716

      Some fancy dans on here, with yer toilet duck !

      What’s wrong with own brand ?
      😉

    201. Doug Daniel says:

      A vast number of Remain voters were SNP voters, so obviously favouring independence, therefore there’s no 50% out of the 62% Remain voters are unionist.

      A vast number of No voters will have been Tory and UKIP Leave voters, so there’s no way 50% out of the 55% of No voters are Remainers.

      She’s talking out of her arse, frankly.

    202. Ghillie says:

      Cadogan Enright @ 9.05pm

      Thank you! And more power to your elbow = )

      Isn’t it telling that Mr Podmore is seeking new audiences?

    203. Balaaargh says:

      Tried to post earlier but got the same error as others are getting.

      The federal idea being mooted by slab will never get past the Tories. WM would have to devolve parts if not all of foreign policy to Scotland.

      Can you imagine them letting oor Nic decide on the regulations that they would have to abide by in order to trade with the EU?

      We need indyref by May next year so that we can be accepted officially by the EU in June. And then we can have the EU presidency next July instead of the UK…

    204. call me dave says:

      A founder member of Labour for Independence has been barred from re-joining the party to vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

      Allan Grogan joined the Scottish Socialist Party (SSP) in the aftermath of 2014’s No vote.

      But he recently applied to become a Labour member again amid speculation that the party is heading for another leadership contest.

      However, the Herald understands that his application has been blocked.

      http://archive.is/sMoI1

    205. Thepnr says:

      @Doug Daniel

      It looks pretty much like all the answers are there in the Revs poll.

      An independent Scotland within the EU 32%
      An independent Scotland outside the EU 11%

      There’s your Yes voters right there 43%

      Scotland inside both the UK and the EU 31%
      Scotland inside the UK but outside the EU 15%

      There’s your No voters right there.

      Both are excluding undecided but it pretty much ties in with the referendum result.

      Maybe more interesting is the number that want to remain in the EU 32% + 31% well that 63% gives you the result in Scotland for Remain in the Brexit vote.

      You might deduce this much from this single question and it might not be too far off.

      25% of Independence supporters do not want to stay in the EU.

      15% of Scottish voters love the UK but hate the EU

      Some of those 31% who want to stay both in the UK and EU are now faced with a choice. One or the other. Some of them are moving to Independence. I’m encouraged by that.

    206. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      I saw there was a single comment on that article suggesting Allan Grogan might form his own Labour party. He might have a point once Scotland is Independent. New broom and all that.

    207. Petra says:

      Forget about Kezia Mugdale. The poor lassie, NO way on a par intellectually with Dewar, Smith or Cook, is wandering around (no doubt miserably) trying to appease her colleagues at the Scottish Branch Office (divided) and keep in with her English bosses down south (divided). Add to that Labour North and South are also divided. Kezia a wee word of advice (saying this because you’re FAR SUPERIOR to Jim Murphy) float above it all and then come right down to earth and state YOUR case, for better or for worse.

      Well anyway I don’t know about Kezia but I just can’t take it anymore. I’ve given up. I’ve thrown in the towel now. I basically can’t stand to listen to another word about the British Brexit or the Chilling Chilcot Report. I’ve been absolutely heartbroken thinking about the millions of people this country has been heavily involved in killing or devastating over the last 20 years or so (millions more over time).

      I’m scunnered with the Labour Party and totally sickened with the Tories. I detest the Royal Parasitical Family and hate the Bullingdon Boys (running the country). MORE than anything I’ve just about had it knowing about political bl**dy paedophile rings the proof of which is being suppressed by the very people who are abusing such vulnerable children to this very day: Narcissistic leopards, in particular, don’t EVER change their spots. I’ve reached the end of my line listening to Call Kaye, watching Question Time or being brainwashed by the BBC. I’m at the end of my tether listening to reports of who will rule us next …. Tory Facist1 or Racist2 or a combination of both. Neither of which the Scots have ever voted for. Nor will we ever.

      I’ve worked my butt off no doubt like so many others on here. I’ve chapped on doors …. thousands of them. I’ve phoned hundreds of others. I’ve ‘fought’ on MANY online sites. I’ve tried to do my utmost to spread the word re. Fracking, Trident and so on all over the Internet and now I’ve decided to give up on all (most of) of that.

      I’ve ‘converted’ two people in the last week through normal, social discourse. YOU can do it too.

      I attended a wedding …. well yesterday …. into the early hours of today. It was absolutely FABULOUS, the people attending were remarkable …. highly intelligent, witty, great dancers and so on, as only a Scottish wedding could be (I’m totally BIASED here of course, lol). A number of ‘foreigners’ attended the wedding from the US, Europe and England.

      A number of English people (mostly Scots married to English people) attending the wedding stated that they were planning to move back to Scotland and vote for Independence. Great.

      Following reading one report after another (thousands) on a MULTITUDE of sites / issues over the last couple of years or so …. the bottom line is this: Carry on posting on this site. Support Stu in his mighty endeavour and find just ONE person to convert. If you do so we WILL become an Independent Nation.

      That’s it folks. SIMPLE. OH so simple. Convert just ONE person over the next 12 months or so and give yourself a break. Give yourself a break from reading newspapers and / or listening to the disgusting Westminster Propaganda Machine in operation.

      And hey ho we WILL be FREE. Scotland will, after 300 years, become an Independent Nation once again. Roll on the day.

    208. Breeks says:

      @Petra 1:55am

      I’m don’t have any problem with Bella the way some folks do, but I don’t agree with that article. Essentially it’s correct, that Independence which squirts out the side of a UK under duress isn’t the pure and visionary type of Independence won on cool, rational high principle. It’s true. We’d all like to score a goal with an overhead scissor kick 30 yards out, but a goal scrambled over the line in a pile up still counts as a goal.

      I don’t see any victory for Independence if we start to get picky about the ‘type’ of Independence we should have.

      Currently, I think Independence has to look for the gap between our rotten media, and core support for banal idiocy which the rotten media shores up.

      We all know the media is our greatest enemy, and still our government does nothing about it. I have a big problem with that. It is courting defeat to do nothing.

      And by that core support, I mean for example the minority held hostility in Scotland towards Europe. Being in the EU is a no brainer. Even if you don’t like Europe, it is still a no brainer. I am in do doubt whatsoever that the antipathy some people feel towards Europe is created and maintained by the BBC’s intrinsic Euroscepticism and xenophobia. Some people are susceptible to it’s influence. Scotland has plenty of its own “Vinces”.

      Imagine the time when we are free of the BBC and watching our own news which doesn’t drip poison in our ears but engages positively with the good things which EU membership brings about. Why is the UK the only member state wanting to leave the EU? Answer? The U.K. Is the only member state which has to listen to the BBC.

      The same is true for Unionism. In my experiences, most people’s sense of Unionism is profoundly held, but restricted in its depth to two or three sentences which can’t quite combine into a rational argument.

      “I canna stand the Salmond”. Really? That’s your reason to keep Scotland in the dark ages?

      “We’ll just come crawling back when we run out of money”. No we fecking won’t because an Independent Scotland will NOT be run like a basket case economy. GERS reflects Scotland under Union control. It’s like comparing a wolf having a successful day’s hunting with a wolf with its foot in a trap. We don’t know how fast our country can go because we’ve never had the chance to really let fly.

      “What’s GERS?”

      We’ve all heard the same bullshit. Hardcore Unionism, the spiritual and settled sort, the belief that Scotland needs to be in Union undoubtedly does exist, and I respect that, but the ranks and numbers of such people I believe are grossly inflated by limited thinkers who are deeply influenced by our sinister controlling media. I really hate to say it, because there’s a suggestion it’s a bit tin foil hat, and I don’t want to insult people whom I want to bring to our cause. Yet of all the No voters I know, not one of them had a lot going on upstairs. I’m not meaning to generalise all No voters, but I refer to my own unionist aquaintances, individual people I could name and show you where they lived. The media tells them what to think and that’s becomes what they do think. They are cattle, apolitical and disengaged by default, but herded into unionism by the BBC. Ooooh. Look at those tricksy politicians in suits who want your vote. Don’t listen to them. Listen to nice, apple pie and cream Auntie BBC…

      The fact some of these people exist, means there is potential for a lot of these people to exist. This is where the BBC can exert its influence where it matters.

      Independence is not about timing, or polls, or European endorsement. If we want an Independent country, then we need the BBC to shut it’s face and stop pouring propaganda into our Livingrooms, then let common sense reign supreme.

    209. Smallaxe says:

      @Petra,I agree with everything you have written,exactly the way I think and feel,if there is such a thing as a cyber hug
      please consider yourself lovingly hugged.Peace Love and and happiness to you and yours x

    210. Smallaxe says:

      # Breeks, you too are writing a lot of sense as usual our mission is to get the word out to people who will at least
      think it over rationally,of course there are others who will
      not listen and have no cogent argument to counter common sense.

      We can leave them alone and just hope they will come to their
      Sense’s eventually.Peace.

    211. winifred mccartney says:

      Petra don’t give up posting especially here – I am so grateful to all the well informed knowledgeable folk who post on wings – I have learned so much and like you I am disgusted with bbc and press – their deliberate manipulation is unforgiveable – one day after independence maybe we will have our own ‘chilcot’ which will confirm for us what we already know – the bbc is blatantly biased. However I do think the way to go is one at a time – once you point out to friends etc an example of press/bbc nonsense and tell them the truth their eyes will open and they will begin to see for themselves. As for Kez – poor kez she does not have the wit to see she is being used as a fall guy and stooge – she will be the next head on the block-you almost feel sorry for her until you realised she has the gall to think she has the answers.

    212. cearc says:

      UK well on the way to sick-man of Europe status again.

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-08/hsbc-inundated-by-foreign-currency-account-requests-post-brexit

      ‘…are being told the waiting time is 10 to 15 days…opposed to five working days advertised …’

      http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-08/the-bank-of-england-makes-a-capital-mistake

      ‘British banks have been allowed to return a lot of capital to shareholders in the form of dividends and stock buybacks. According to data compiled by Bloomberg, the total from 2009 through 2015 for the five largest U.K. banks was 63 billion pounds. That would have been enough to boost capital by more than 1 pound for every 100 pounds in assets. Today, they have a little over 6 pounds in equity per 100 pounds in assets — far short of what’s required to avoid distress in a severe crisis, as the banks’ beaten-down stock prices suggest.

    213. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Cadogan Enright 9.04

      Is this what you’re after?

      http://www.pilaraymara.com/2016/06/lets-be-serious-mariano-rajoy-said.html

      Also found this but it’s an old one from FT on Feb2 2014 and because of the ‘pay up to read’ I’ve never read it but the headline seems hopeful:

      OK won’t do that – the link filled the whole page and I don’t want to get hit wi’ hammers.

      Headline says: Spain promises non-interference on Scotland. Maybe someone wi’ more techyness than me can sort it out?

    214. carjamtic says:

      O/T

      Sale of Tata Steel

      The U.K. Gov. Launches a consultation on drawing up ‘special legislation’ to lower the pension benefits for many of the pension fund members.

      What does this even mean ?….I think I know.

      Your special,very special….

    215. JLT says:

      For the last three years, Scottish Labour have tried …and lost …to promote their own agenda. They have watched in a mixture of disbelief and horror as the numbers tumbled away supporting Scottish Labour, until now, it is a complete shadow of what it once was.

      Even in England, the Labour Party now sit on the precipice where its future hangs in the balance as the commonality fight with the Labour MP’s over the Party’s very soul.

      For the Scottish Labour leader, it has finally dawned on Kezia that the policy of trying to promote Scottish Labour as an alternative party in Scotland lies in tatters. She learned through bitterness of what happens when you align the Labour party with that of the Tories against the commonality as we all saw in the Referendum of 2014. Half of Scotland will never forgive her, or Labour, until Scotland is independent …and even then, Scottish Labour will still be in the dock post-independence as to whether the Party should be allowed to return to the fold.

      She can’t jump to the old social left since the SNP have taken up Labour’s old socialist values and not only promoted them; but carried them with a vengeance too, and for, the Scottish people. That leaves Kezia in limbo with no policies. Move to the right, and she gets slaughtered for being Pro-Tory …and it’s beyond comprehension that Kezia would defeat the likes of Ruth Davidson in a fight overt he ideals of Capitalism. Ruth would both mock and eat her alive. She can’t jump to the left, as the opponent in Nicola Sturgeon would be even more terrifying; resolute; determined; full of integrity; seriously intelligent …and half a nation that literally hangs on to her every word and is committed to the same cause.

      So what can Kezia bring to the table? She is in the same boat as wee Willie Rennie; a fairly nice chap but another who paid the price for standing with the Tories in 2014.

      Time and again, the answer has been in front of her; it has smacked her around the head; it has belittled her even as she shook her head; it has whispered away in those quiet moments of self-doubt; she has even been told so by her own parents! And still she dances and skirts around the issue. She just won’t accept the idea of independence as a serious alternative even though it would probably save her political career.

      Now it’s Federalism. If Kezia truly believes that the British Establishment are going to hand over all their power to the idea of Federalism, then she is truly deluding herself. Never …NEVER …will the Establishment of Great Britain ever accept Federalism. After all …that is what the British State imposed on Imperial Prussian Germany after 1945 …and the idea for it was to simply remove the German aristocracy from power. British aristocracy made sure that there would be no rival Establishment in Europe. It took 2 World Wars as Britain tried to destroy German Industrialists, its trade, colonies and it’s powerful military army and ideals that was promoted through the Prussian-orientated Junker class. The British aristocracy eventually succeeded, but at great cost.

      So Kezia is badly fooling herself with any notions or wild ideas that the British aristocracy will consider the thought of Federalism as an alternative and thus hand over all their power to local federalised governments and the people. The main body of the Establishment in all honesty would rather see Britain annihilated and go up in flames than bend the knee to the commonality.

      But for Kezia, time is ticking …and she knows it. Sooner or later once all the options will have dried up, and that no solution can be found for Scotland over the EU problem, Nicola Sturgeon will call for a 2nd Referendum, and at that very moment, Kezia will have to choose. And if she gets it wrong …then she knows herself, that there will be no forgiveness, after going against the commonality for a 2nd time.

    216. Stoker says:

      Breeks wrote: “What’s GERS?”

      Breeks, they’re a former Scottish football club who went bust!

    217. Dorothy Devine says:

      Re Ms Leadsom , she says the article was ” disgusting’ and in no way reflects what she said .

      it may well have been a Murdoch paper but the Guardian and Independent are also running it and very likely several others – and we in Scotland KNOW how the media behave so lets be not too quick to judge.

      That said , I see no Prime Ministerial material anywhere – except Ms Sturgeon.

    218. Robert Peffers says:

      @Chic McGregor says: 8 July, 2016 at 11:29 pm:

      ““Not sure that Jackie Baillie’s abacus is up to a Venn diagram.” I think she is more into pie charts.”

      I suppose that’s marginally better than public bar graphs.

    219. Ken500 says:

      The only thing that’s needed is the date for the next Independence Ref. The Westminster Unionist have crashed the world economy. It could not get any worse, but it will. Labour have descended into a parody. The Tories couldn’t get any worse. They committed Electoral fraud to win an election and within a year have crashed the world economy. The reason for the migration crisis in Europe is Westminster Unionists bombing the Middle East to bits for years.

      If the Tories had not committed Electoral fraud the SNP would have held the balance of power at Westminster and none of this mess would have ever happened. A second Indy Ref would have been assured. Not an EU Referendum held. The Tories corruption, greed and lies. They have destroyed their Party and ruined the world economy.

      They must not be allowed to get away with their criminal, corrupt behaviour and benefit from it. They must be sanctioned. A General Election must be called. The ones that caused all the killing and distress must be held to account. Not just walk away. A General Election must be called right away to purge the ‘pychology bastsrds’. The ToryUjionists have caused all the damage and have destroyed the world economy.

      The ones who caused the total corruption and destruction, the tax evading fund managers would now be running the UK. Thatcher clones. Lying through their teeth. Every word they utter is a lie. Never trust a Tory/Unionists. The ‘candidates’ for Tory leadership are just deplorable. They could not run a bouncy castle, along with the rest of the Westminster/Unionist totally incompetents. Completely and utterly contemptible. They make people sick, worried and unhappy. They don’t care.

      May Thatcher wants to renew Trident and sanction and starve the vulnerable to death. Spend and waste public money on grotesque projects that the majority do not want. It will damage the economy and increase the debt. In order to syphon off public money into debt for them and their cronies. They are by funded bankers and tax evading non Doms.

      The tax evading bankers who have trashed the world economy. Then claim there is not enough money for essential services to protect the economy and the vulnerable. A cyclical pattern of disruption. Feeding the fire. All Unionist political Parties are a danger to the world economy. Cameron lied about his finances and wealth in the Westminster Parliament. He is a craven criminal and should be brought to justice.

      The Unionists in Holyrood are just pathetic. 2nd rate rejects. Who in Scotland would join a Unionists Party after the way they have carried on. A cabal of crooks and dangerous liars. They are disgusting. Whoever employed one of them at Edinburgh Uni needs their head examined. A self seeking, arrogant, ignorant liar. Swanning around the world on Scottish taxpayers money. Never at his post. Ignorant of Scottish Law, history,society or culture. An insult to people’s intelligence. Now a 2nd rate reject on a 2nd salary paid for by Scottish taxpayers, who they insult with every utterance. About time some of the dross was cleared out and the Parliamentary system was amended.

      A General Election must be called to get rid of some of the dross and electoral criminals. They should be charged and disciplined to have any credibility left. A long time gone. A 2nd Independence Ref must be called in Scotland before the Scottish economy is dragged down by the Westminster sycophant ‘pycho bastards’. Their own description.

      A General Election must be called right away to rid the UK of the Tory/Unionist criminals. An Indy Ref 2 to save the UK economy from even more damage. Trident must not be renewed. The Defence Bill should be cut. The money going to essential services and vulnerable people. The funds should go the Middle East for reconstruction and to repair the damage that the West has caused by bombing the Middle East in illegal wars. Wars for Oil. Trade and give aid, do not invade. Stop supporting illegal apartheid States and absolute despot Monarchies. That will stop the migration into Europe. The ones who caused this mess and destruction must be brought to justice. US/UK (France) are culpable. The US is descending into Civil war. There is complete strife in the French economy. A French Presidential Election will be called in May 2017. The US is already having a disasterous one. Scottish council election in May 2017. SNPtwa. For another InfyRef to protect the UK economy.

      Now the Westminster criminals are sending troops to the Russian border. The Russians saved the West in the 11WW. 26Million Russians died. A great sacrifice along with Poland etc. Now the Westminster incompetents want to ‘send Poles back’ who who have contribution to the British economy for repatriation and start trouble on the Russian border with 500 British soldiers. The EU keeps peace in Europe and starvation at bay. The Greeks have signed a military deal with Russia, against Turkey. Greek and Turkey have conflicts and are old enemies. The Greeks got into financial trouble buying too much redundant weaponry from Germany who is in Nato. Not a good decision.

      They are sending women to the front line because they can’t recruit enough personnel for the Army. The Army Chief’s were responsible for the illegal war fiasco, when ill equipped service personal were killed and injured. They had to buy their own adequate uniform and protective gear. An absolute disgrace. Chilcot called them to account for their failings. Who would want to join the Army in these circumstances? They have a duty of care, especially for young recruits. There is a culture of bullying and harassment in some parts of the services.

      The military have 15% of Scottish personnel. Very few are based in Scotland. Scotland 1/12 of the UK population. Scotland punching above it’s weight. Westminster have cut the number of Defence personnel from 100,000 to 80,000. Relying on an intended military reserve. Westminster have delay the navy ships intended to be build on the Clyde. Scotland contributes on average £4Billion a year on Defence spending, not allocated to Scotland. Apart from Trident/illegal wars – £1Billion – which the majority do not support. They want frigates built to patrol the Ports.

    220. gordoz says:

      Yass ; Finally found the FT article in full re ‘Sir’ Nicholas McPherson – quite a turnaround for this ‘former’ uber unionist.

      You should read this

      https://next.ft.com/content/1219f41c-4456-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1

    221. Ken500 says:

      The Labour/Tory/LibDem Parties in Scotland could never, ever, ever support Independence for Scotland. They are (few) members of Parties that are funded from Westminster. They would not exist in Scotland without Westminster Party support and funding. They would break their own Party rules and manifesto and get chucked out of the Party. They are cunning, conning liars. It is just another false surmise to con people. The VOW lies and reneging, The promises of FFA/ Home Rule, now rescinded.

      Weetminster/Unionist Parties have destroyed. the Scottish/UK/EU/world economy for years. Wars for Oil, banking fraud, tax evasion and criminal international behaviour. They are above the Law and get away with every crime under the sun, including, maiming and killing innocent people. Making people are worried sick, unhappy and sick with worry. With all the uncertainty.

    222. gordoz says:

      No that didn’t work either – sorry

      I give up 🙁

    223. I think we should all stop talking about “the currency”.
      The debate is a diversion invented by our enemies as part of the scaremongering campaign.

      We are doing our enemies job for them in helping to create confusion on the issue

      There is a limitless array of options open to us but the only important issue is to persuade a significant section of our population that we are comfortably self sufficient.

      Sharing the pound at the point of a YES vote for independence was exactly the right option at that point. That is why it was furiously attacked.

      I will repeat again. I was involved on an every day basis in the YES campaign for over two years. Not one person mentioned currency at the door to our canvassers. The average punter is a lot cleverer than our clever guys who have their knickers in a twist on this invented issue.

      It doesn’t matter what name, number and colour your currency is as long as your economy is working adequately and everybody has enough of the tokens (which is what paper money is).

    224. Valerie says:

      @Petra

      You need a break. I totally get you, you feel so dirty and degraded by even handling the shit eventually.

      You need to recharge and cleanse. I usually pick a task, and try and stay away from any media for a bit.

      Our side has enough positivity to keep fighting and will welcome you back.

      Take care

    225. mike cassidy says:

      People, we cant have a currency called ‘merk’.

      Everybody will just call it an ‘angela’.

    226. mike cassidy says:

      The Macpherson article appears to be firewalled –

      so here’s the BBC’s reporting of it.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36754022

    227. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi gordoz et al.

      cearc posted the text of the FT article last night.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/kounting-with-kezia/comment-page-1/#comment-2164070

    228. Breeks says:

      I don’t ordinarily stick the boot in to Labour, because I don’t have any part of my brain which asks what Labour thinks about anything. I don’t care what Labour thinks. If I’m honest, there is something about Labour’s socialism which has always felt headless. Not headless in a headless chicken kind of way, but when you make all your Indians into Chiefs, there’s nobody left who can make a decision.

      That kind of thinking puts me into right wing Tory bastard country, doesn’t it? Well, no, because I revile them as much as you do, and for the same reasons you do.

      Middle of the road is Lib Dem country? I’d rather drive in the ditch.

      SNP? Pay dirt! YAHOO! … Or it would be if it wasn’t for the objectionable SNP foot soldiers whom I’ve had the misfortune to call upon for help.

      So what am I? Green? Socialist? Communist? Or just a loose cannon against all of them?

      I think that last option might be it. I’m not actually a political person. I’m not an Independentist for the politics of it, I just want a country where we raise the bar, not lower it. I’ve spent a little time in England, and shock horror, I really liked the place. You might not like the next bit I have to say, but many features of their society are much better than Scotland’s. Yes, money is a factor, and yes, the perception that your government is without a superior probably helps too. But there are more of everything. There are more firms of say joiners, there is a bigger pool which raises the odds on finding good joiners, and the bar can be kept high. A bigger industry supports more specialisation. In Scotland, that specialisation still exists, but it requires tagged on to a non-specialised workload, and that tier of elite, and elite in a good sense, frankly struggles to exist.
      I can’t quote you figures, but say statistically it takes 100 joiners to find one elite cabinet maker, if you have 1000 joiners, you will find 10 good cabinet makers, and probably a dozen if you allow for those on the journey. These elite cabinet makers can share skills, cross pollinate ideas and push the limit of expertise. If 100 joiners are your lot,… then you begin to see where I’m coming from.

      England functions because their society has organically grown around their needs and their circumstances. Scotland has too, but to a much lesser extent, but Scotland has also had to bend to the UK model which might fit England, but rarely Scotland.

      Without its own government, Scotland cannot do what is necessary, and what is necessary is a MAJOR rethink of everything, right across the spectrum.

      To go back to that joiners analogy, our 100 joiners are only going to give us one elite specialist, so we need a different system so that we can get 3 or 4 elite specialists. That means much better training, not partaking of the same regime which works in England. It means as a society that we have to support that “indulgence” of quality and expertise. We have to create the environment for that expertise to survive in a commercial world where the bean counters would shut it down.

      To borrow an expression I heard down there, “a good big’un is always better than a good little’un”. And there is sense in that. What this means is that little’un Scotland has to invest more in its human resource and make sure we can compete with any good big’un, no by being a good little’un but great little’un.

      How does that translate into direct effect? Well, straight away we need to re-examine training and education. Colleges and NVQ’s are dismally poor alternatives to traditional 5 year + apprenticeships. We must think hard about bringing back these apprenticeships, but equally important, throw a lifeline to these high caliber trades at the same time. If we force our firms and industry into this commercial world denuded of all other merits except money, then our expertise in a few years will be a skin deep facade.

      In many respects, we are already there, but we can recover if there is a will to do it. And to date, frankly, there is no political party even aware of this issue. I seem to be living on my own little planet which none of them want anything to do with.

      As a society, correction a Scottish society, we need to create a protectionist market to sustain our distinctive Scottish trades, heritage, specialisations, and characters and find a way to make them viable and self sustaining. If we don’t, then Scottish is homogenised with British, and British homogenised with Global, and that’s the Neoliberal way.

      In order to do that, there must be recognition of the problem, a firm grass roots acknowledgement that Scotland wants to protect Scottish distinction, and commitment to make it happen. That will require an enlightened government. That enlightened government will require sovereign authority to do what must be done. To do do what must be done requires Scotland to be an independent country.

      Without independence, our journey has yet to begin.

      I don’t want to live in a neoliberal world where everything is judged by cost, not value. I believe Neoliberalism is in trouble, and will fail the way communism failed. It is ultimately unsustainable. I can think of nothing more rewarding or spiritually uplifting than a Scottish Nation State holding a beacon aloft and showing the world a better way to live our lives.

    229. mike cassidy says:

      So even tory minds are being attracted to an independent Scotland.

      That Macpherson article reads like a political love letter to Raging Ruth.

      Get your finger out and go for independence.

      A smaller, more efficient state.

      Don’t worry! The people will create the foodbanks to deal with the hardship.

      Just what the Tory doctor prescribed.

    230. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Some great comments overnight, esp Petra and Breeks -a lot of us feel likewise.

      More power to ye’s, Nana, smallaxe, and a’body else.

    231. Petra says:

      Great post JLT. Spot on.

      And thanks to Smallaxe, Winifred and Valerie for their comments / responses to my post. Yeah I do need a break Valerie. I’ve reached a bit of an all time low. Scunnered with the lies, unfairness, injustice, inequality, propaganda and the Westminster foreign policy of creating mayhem and misery the World over. Sick and tired listening to the warmongering madmen and women in Westminster (and their Party before People cronies in Scotland) saying there’s lessons to be learned from Chilcott whilst bombing Syria, selling arms being used to decimate the Yemen and now poking the bear, Russia, at the bequest of the US and it’s lackeys NATO and the UN.

      No point on going on about it all again. I’ve been ‘here’ before and bounced back. I know we’ll get our Independence but it just can’t come soon enough for me. I’m going abroad for a few weeks in a couple of days time so will ‘recharge and cleanse’, follow Wings from overseas and no doubt post on here when I return home hopefully having bucked up by then. Meanwhile keep up the great work folks x

    232. Stoker says:

      If Nana can struggle through the daily pain we can all cope!

      Have a good holiday Petra and haste ye back!

    233. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Cearc and others. You can contact Cadogan Enright here

      https://www.facebook.com/councillorcadogan.enright/

    234. Luigi says:

      A massive force of 600 British troops will be sent to the Baltic.

      Putin will be quaking in his boots. 🙂

    235. Luigi says:

      All this high tension with Russia would not have anything to do with the snap vote to renew Trident nexr week, per chance?

      Surely not. 🙂

    236. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Petra –

      Have a great break.

      The value of this place is that we can say what our political reps daren’t, and do it whatever way we choose. I don’t doubt for a nano-second that even the most civil and cultured supporters of independence must voice their frustrations in colourful terms behind closed doors, but they daren’t do so publicly.

      That was certainly the cause of much angst here, and across the broader Yes movement – we had characters like Blair Jenkins, with that rictus-grin, being ever-so-nice to a’body. His behaviour did not represent how most of us felt about shameless liars like McBloater and McTernan and there were very few occasions (that I can recall at any rate) where Yes reps really faced-down the BTUKOKers in terms which would resonate with ‘ordinary’ punters.

      That leaves us to do it. It’s tiring and sometimes seems pointless, but it has to be done. We can and should take turns with the proverbial lash because it’s the only language they really understand. Likewise, we all need to get away sometimes.

      Thanks again for voicing what so many of us really feel, and here’s hoping our elected reps will make some effort to inject a bit of that passion into the ongoing discourse – no-one wants or needs a re-run of Indyref1. Next time it’s winner takes all, and we cannot afford to lose.

    237. Truth says:

      Since when has Labour been expected to tell the truth?

      If it comes out of Kezia’s mouth it is either inane drivel or lies.

      That’s all you need to know. With other Labour politicians it is the same, merely a slightly different mix of drivel and lies.

    238. shug says:

      We need to get sight of all funding currently coming from the eu by council area and to specific industries
      We need to reinforce to people in these areas their funding will shortly be removed
      Nobody can believe that Westminster will replace the funding

    239. r.esquierdo says:

      In out, in out, you shake it all about you do the British politics and you turn around. That’s what it is all about

      Oh hockey , Pockey

    240. stewartb says:

      To shug @5.49pm

      This analysis of local dependency across the UK on EU funding and businesses may be of interest to you:

      http://www.tbr.co.uk/pages/brexit-jobs-and-business.php?dm_i=413,4BSX4,E3QKV0,FUT3T,1

    241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      O/T A plea to avoid this recent strange mutation “tin foil hat”. As anyone old enough will well know, the actual expression is “tin hat”, army slang for a steel helmet. An item of limited utility but nevertheless solid enough, and nothing to do with some kind of absurdist party gear.

    242. Dave McDave says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      O/T The recent usage of the phrase “tinfoil hat” has nothing to do with your steel army helmets of yesteryear. As far as I’m aware, it popped up in 2014 and was intended as a dig at Scottish nationalists, likening them to the batshit-crazy conspiracy theorists who wrap their head in tinfoil, believing it to stop the government and/or aliens zapping their brains with mysterious gamma-rays from satellites.
      As usual, the Yes side saw the humour and quickly adopted it along with “vile sep” and “cybernat”. I’m sure I’m not the only one who would have happily sported a tinfoil hat if it were proven to block the constant stream of propaganda being relentlessly beamed at us!



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