Just leaving this here
Posted on
July 13, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Our latest Panelbase poll was conducted from 26 June-3 July, before this weekend’s astonishing events involving Greece, which are currently being documented on Twitter under the hashtag #ThisIsACoup.
We’re going to ask the exact same question again in our next one, so we can see if the EU’s actions have caused any significant change in public opinion. It should be pretty interesting either way.
It didn’t change my mind and it only confirmed me in my wish to get out. It hardened my vote against staying in. I had actually toyed with the idea of voting to stay in if I thought England would vote to leave. I scrapped that idea though.
When it came to our Indy Referendum it seemed to me we had few friends in EU Capitals.
I want out of the corrupt rotten UK and I want out of the corrupt rotten EU.
Gee Thanks. This is a difficult one. Have the people behind the European dream simply demonstrated that this is part of the whole Neo-Liberal conspiracy against the people? I don’t know, but I’m feeling pretty sick as acommitted European.
Germany’s behaviour has been appalling.
The 50 billion Euro asset transfer proposal to a shady euro organisation in Luxemburg has, within hours, been debunked as a Greek asset transfer to a company who is Greece’s single biggest creditor who’s chairperson is none other than Wolfgang Shaueble.
You literally, couldn’t make it up. Even if it is all legally above board, this is not how European politics should be done.
I have to be completely honest and say that this weekend’s events are stretching my support for the EU absolutely to the very limit.
Bear in mind everything Hitler did was legal at the time.
Definitely be good to see if it does.
Was wondering this myself.
The immediate effect notwithstanding, Germany’s behaviour will not play well with the UK electorate sold a line about bad Germans by the UK press in the run up to an EU in/out referendum. Such suspicion cannot be undone easily.
It’ll be interesting allright. I have certainly modified my enthusiasm for the EU even though I haven’t gone the whole exit hog yet, but the Greek affair has highlighted the essential neoliberal cabal of the EU. The funny thing is why so many may have been surprised by that.
The EU is more than just a big trade deal, but the current negotiations around the Trans-Atlantic and Trans-Pacific trade deals shows up the whole idea of removing trade barriers as a cipher for doing trade to suit the big players and the global corporates first and foremost.
Scotland is not Greece in that context, but neither is it Germany or France. How strong would an independent Scotland’s negotiating position be on modifying its EU membership?
I’ll now be voting No if Cameron’s referendum materialises.
But that’s primarily because the BBC are in favour of a Yes vote.
This situation is a real moral dilemma for me.
While Germany are behaving appallingly, I really like the fact that as a result of the EU I can be resident in Spain. The UK voting to leave the EU does seem to be edging closer and I wouldn’t want to lose my right to live where I am.
“The power elite are not happy to be cheated of their ill-gotten gains. They will increase the intimidation, not withdraw. Their reply might well be savage for Greece’s audacity to confront their conditions of austerity.”
Well, I was accurate:
https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/07/06/greece-varoufakis-the-hero/
By the way, nice comment here from Paul Krugman: http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2015/07/12/killing-the-european-project/?referrer
Antigone ?@Lost_in_Theater 1 min1 minute ago
#ThisIsACoup 1st they came for t Greeks& didnt speak out cause I wasnt a Greek.Then they came for me& there was no one left t speak for me.
We all know it’s the City stinking rich behind this horror.
The nonsense about Greeks not paying tax – particularly the many poor living off the land difficult to quantify let alone to reach in rural areas: In one district of southern Spain, a year ago, an experienced estate agent calculated that there was over two million Euros of uncollected tax, almost all of it owed by ex-pat Brits happy to enjoy Spain but exploit it.
The district council that administrated their region was almost bankrupt.
In my view as an independent nation within the EU we should not face the same difficulties as Greece particularly if we are not a member of the Eurozone but retain the pound sterling (even with all of it’s difficulties). This after all was the SNP position going into the referendum
In this circumstance we will still face but be in a position to challenge the attacks on democracy by the Commission’s technocrats & financiers and crooked politicians. To me there is clearly a distinction between being in the EU but not within the EZ
I envisage a slight difficulty with the next Wings poll in that those being polled may conflate the EU and EZ. Will it be possible and useful to address this aspect with an additional question?
The appalling treatment of Greece has highlighted clearly the faults and dangers in the EU if democratic principles are not kept in focus and adhered to. We should be in there helping to fix things and would certainly manage better than Cameron, Hammond & co.
Every EU institution has been complicit in this sordid little pantomime. Days into the SYRIZA administration (like them or loath them, they were democratically elected), the ECB removed the right of the Greek gvt to issue short term bonds and thus the right to borrow from banks; this left them with no other option other than to raid every public fund available to pay the IMF. Every step, every line and breathe uttered, has been in the service of regime change.This is not Europe. Europe doesn’t strangle members’ banks, doesn’t terrorize electorates into submission, doesn’t threaten member states with the removal of basic human rights.
Schaeuble’s play as the white bull in the Europe myth threatens to undermine decades of work towards a lasting and unbreakable peace. Whatever happens, nothing can ever be the same after this.
I’m starting to understand what it felt like for all those folk who started off the independence debate as firm unionists, but whose enthusiasm waned as Project Fear begun to unfold.
If the EU referendum was tomorrow, I would still vote Yes to stay in, but I’d be doing it with far less conviction than I would have done even a month ago. So I can see how some folk still ended up voting No last year, despite their disgust at the No campaign.
However, the difference here is we’re seeing the true face of the EU before the EU referendum, whereas David Cameron at least had the sense to wait until after the independence referendum to make it clear that the Vow had been the complete falsehood all of us on the Yes side knew it was.
It all makes you wonder what would have been the result if we’d held the independence referendum after all this had taken place – would people have realised the importance of sovereignty, or would they have been frightened off even more?
Anyway, regardless of whether I remain a Yes to the EU, at the moment I have absolutely no idea how I could sell a positive vision of it to anyone else, as I imagine others are thinking as well. And that’s a problem if we’re banking on a split vote in the UK providing the grounds for another indyref.
I have always been sceptical about membership of the EU but have been willing to accept the thinking of greater minds than mine, who asserted that an independent Scotland must be part of the EU in order to prosper. In light of recent events however, I am no longer able to maintain this acceptance.
Broonpot: The appalling treatment of Greece has highlighted clearly the faults and dangers in the EU if democratic principles are not kept in focus and adhered to. We should be in there helping to fix things and would certainly manage better than Cameron, Hammond & co.
I agree. We are dealing with right-wing administrations, what else would they want to do to a left-wing neighbour but weaken it until, it buckles? The grass roots movements in Italy and Spain might make the difference – eventually.
I used to be a firm yes to staying in. For no better reason than the recent improvements to my council house were as a result of European grants.
But the events of recent weeks have changed my mind. There’s absolutely no point in us getting shot of Westminster only to replace it with the Troika. I am disgusted, ashamed and frankly scared at the direction our so called civilised western democratic society appears to heading.
Iceland didn’t bow down to capitalism. It jailed its bankers, and its politicians for irresponsible financial management of the nation’s assets. And they’re doing ok now.
While I still have a vote, and I’m just waiting for the Victorian laws requiring status and property to be brought back as criteria for a voice in the running of one’s country, I will be voting for self-determination.
Outside the Uk and definitely outside the EU.
Whatever becomes of us, I cannot and will not imagine it could possibly be worse than where we are as Uk and EU citizens tonight. I have faith in who we are as a nation of people, and right now I have faith in the SNP as politicians who recognise that they are answerable to us and not the other way around.
Hope over Fear!
I’m beginning to change my mind due to the events surrounding Greece and the way the country is being treated. Was intending to vote to stay in, really don’t think I will vote that way now
I think the desire to be good Europeans stems from the fact that Scotland as a distinct entity is so submerged and suffocated by the ‘British State’ that it often feels as if it’s nothing more than a small, inconsequential, subdued corner of England. Certainly we know this via the poor treatment and representation (or lack of) of Scotland in the media. Invisibility is quite a strange feeling.
The desire to be a recognised player within an open and tolerant Europe has existed ever since Winnie exclaimed: Stop the world, we want to get on!
But, yes, the last few weeks have been a real eye-opener. My inclination now is to believe that countries with small populations/economies should not wed themselves to much larger, more ‘powerful’ countries.
A somewhat obvious assertion for most of us here.
I remain a committed supporter of the EU (European Union) bearing in mind that the Eurozone is a different thing, and bearing in mind also that the European Court on European Rights is a different thing again.
I’m disgusted by the way Greece is being treated (and others) and it shook my allegiance to the EU a bit, although I had to constantly remind myself that it wasn’t an act of the EU but of the Eurozone, and certainly not the actions of the European Court on Human Rights.
Of course we are entitled to think that all three institutions are one and the same and that all three have the same aim. Maybe they do. I dont think so.
What I do know, is that ordinary working people everywhere throughout the EU and Europe (working class and middle class), had better get their ass in gear, because if Greece loses, we all will lose!
Once again, the taxpayers bail out the banks. If EU can’t stand up to these financial robber barons who will?
“To frame the cynical transfer of irretrievable private losses on to the shoulders of taxpayers as an exercise in “tough love”, record austerity was imposed on Greece, whose national income, in turn – from which new and old debts had to be repaid – diminished by more than a quarter. It takes the mathematical expertise of a smart eight-year-old to know that this process could not end well.”
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/11/behind-germanys-refusal-to-grant-greece-debt-relief-op-ed-in-the-guardian/#more-8970
I find it easy enough to reconcile being pro-European (Union) and morally repelled by the behaviour of the “troika” at the same time.
The actions of these unelected bankers and technocrats enslaved to austerity politics, kowtowing to their German overlords, are actively destroying democracy in European countries. This behaviour should not diminish the successes of the EU and the stability it has brought to the region. It’s oft time overblown bureaucratic rules and regulations mask the guaranteed rights in many areas of our life that didn’t exist before.
There has been an ill-conceived, neoliberal experiment that was created in the single currency monetary union of the Eurozone. It has proved you can’t lump disparate economies together without any form of fiscal union and expect everyone to behave like Germany in the 1990s. Imposing austerity is ideologically driven and taken to it’s current end is now transferring sovereignty from democratically elected governments to unelected technocrats that work in the financial sector. The continent is being held to ransom by them, our futures are being held to ransom by them and we must stand up and say enough is enough. We don’t want this for Greece, we don’t want it for Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Italy or anywhere else, including Scotland.
Indeed membership of the EZ would be the primary focus of concern in regards to an independent Scotland’s future place in Europe. Being press-ganged into the failed currency union would render our own sovereignty to great risk.
I will vote yes to stay in the European Union, but would vote no to being a member of the Eurozone.
Most of the military arms deals that helped sink Greece came from Germany.
The Wall Street Journal 2010:-
http://lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-the-submarine-deals-that-helped-sink-greece-.html
Why was the Greek Government buying so much military hardwear?
And look how heavily involved Germany was in all those arms deals to Greece.
Like many here I have been a committed European, but even during the referendum began to worry. The lack of support, that they could watch the subtle and not so subtle bullying, irritated the life out of me. Now watching them with Greece, I am not happy, that and that politically everyone needs to be right wing neo capitalist or they will wreck your country. Not sure right now how I will vote.
I wasn’t entirely bothered about the EU in or out, but after this weekend? Its one to think about.
Still, one steaming pile of greedy, self interested, politicians at a time. Let’s get shot of the more immediate problem.
O/T
The tragic deaths of the two people who died in the car crash the other day has now turned into a political slagging match.
Wullie Rennie on BBC England, telling the world how bad the Scottish Polis are. It’s turning into an “SNP bad” story now.
During a BBC interview this morning, Wullie tells the British public that Scotland needs more Police call centres.
I wonder how many police call centres could be built if we scrapped Trident tomorrow Wullie?
You chose Trident over spending on public services Wullie.
And so have your pals in the Tory and Labour Parties.
You need to get your priorities right Wullie.
It is not a transfer it is a guarantee. Greece will get the equivalent monetary value. The collateral will be held at the ECB. Greece can come back. It is pawn shop deal. It is a salvage deal. It is the equivalent of QE and will get Greece running again, without adding to the short term debt. Getting out of the hole.
It is a small payment in State terms. £30Billion. Greece can easily pay it off over time on longer terms. It is conciliating credit cards debt on to a longer term loan. Instead of racking up short-term interest charges. It will give Greece the respite it needs to get on it’s feet and manage it’s affairs differently for growth. The equivalent of £3Billion over ten years. Instead of interest charges every six months. It is manageably. It will save Greece, the Eurozone and the world.
Do not believe the lying Press/MSM. They have an agenda.
The EU is a difficult one.
I am very much pro-European – but I am also pro greater cooperation between all countries over things like human rights, tackling disease and poverty, and so on.
However I have huge problems with the EU in its current form and would find it very hard to push for Scottish independence only to see much of the powers and decision making processes taken out of our hands by an over-bearing EU.
The fundamental problem with it at present is the all powerful European Commission. This unelected body cedes only limited powers of decision making to the European Parliament. This parliament is democratic though hardly worthy of the title when you look at turnouts for European elections.
And remember it is the EU which is pushing through things like TTIP in a process from which the public and indeed any real form of democratic representation is excluded.
I have long had my doubts about the SNP’s insistence that Scotland stays in the EU, & the events over the past couple of weeks have strengthened those doubts. The total lack of support from the EU for Scotland’s independence should have been a big red warning sign, but no, the SNP did not even acknowledge that lack of support. I think the SNP would get far more support if they looked to be part of the Nordic economic ideal. We may be too small & too poor for the EU, but their strong-arm methods, as inflicted on Greece, only prove it is the wrong path for Scotland & that a total re-think is needed.
It greatly concerns me that the SNP are simply allowing Westminster to beat our country to its knees. Forget referendums, they will get Scotland nowhere. We either break with England or go down with them. But NOT ONE WORD from the SNP since the budget, no support shown for Greece (officially). We looked so strong with our 56 MPs in Westminster, but they have been rendered completely powerless, indeed, made a laughing stock, yet still, the SNP want to play by the book. I say throw the book at them & get out while we are merely bowed down, & not yet broken. At this point, I have to say my vote will no longer be for the SNP, but for the Greens.
A tragic accident being used by Rennie for political capital will not bring any gain. Opportunist. Rennie doesn’t know when to show some respect. The LibDems are still toast. It was Unionists who appointed House. He is going under the SNP. Pity it wasn’t sooner. It might be soon.
Unionist corruption Helicopters, £5Million show trials, Policing Orange Marches in Glasgow every second week, innocent people in the cells for mild misdemeanours, especially at the week end. Wasting £Million/Billions of public money which could be better spent. All under LibDem/Labour watch at Holyrood, follow the money. It was under local authority control GCC. Now this tragedy.
Josephine Mackenzie 7.47,
Not one word from the SNP ? Seriously?
When it comes to European politics I do not know very much, but, I believe the contributors on here railing against bad Germany are missing something.
Greece’s problems, complex though they might be, are not brought on by being in the European Union (EU), but by being in the Euro-Zone (EZ).
The EU is not perfect, but, Greece, in the EU but maintaining the Drachma, would not be in the fix it is in. Its problems are through being in the EZ, an EU sub-organisation which, even more than the EU itself, is dominated by Germany.
Big Broon may not have done a lot right during his time in numbers 11 and 10 Downing Street, but, he did keep the UK out of the EZ – for which, we should, albeit grudgingly, thank him.
MacKenzie: I have to say my vote will no longer be for the SNP, but for the Greens.
As expected, the, I’ve-always-voted-SNP-but-never-again brigade come out of the woodwork on cue the moment they think they can sow doubt.
Mealer: Not one word from the SNP? Seriously?
He’s another ‘I was a vegetarian but no more’ phony. He’s seen a sprout for the first time and is convinced meat is best.
Can’t recall the Tories had an increase in defence spending in their manifesto but there it is – more killing by proxy to stop killings in England.
The armaments and the security lobby rub their hands in glee.
With an increase in youth unemployment comes some dim Tory hack to prose conscription is reintroduced.
My worry is that a UK outside the EU will be too much for those who voted no through fear.
A split EU vote and I’m sure the fearful noes would have voted for independence within Europe.
UK going it alone? There’s just no way they’d vote for Scotland to leave that. Even the soft yesses may change their minds.
That said I have long gone off the EU and was considering voting to leave long before the recent Greek situation.
Truly interesting times.
A tragic accident being used by Rennie for political capital will not bring any gain.
The opposition’s critique never gets beyond demeaning the government.
A new hospital experiences an expected teething problem – “hospital in crisis”. Labour propose a one-nation police force – “police force in crisis”.
Bit of a problem with that one!
I was afraid this might happen
Voting yes and England voting no, which would then precipitate another uk referendum, was sturgeons strategy. I agree with all of the comments about barrossa’s intervention in our referendum and the eu’s treatment of Greece. Thing is, what ever changes that the city, Westminster and the eu have agreed upon, will happen whether we vote yes or no. What actually happens when we vote no, will not be clear, it will be a long string of confused platitudes, same as the explanation for a yes vote. This why Cameron hasn’t decided which side to campaign for yet. A no will probably secure him some of the demands he has already made, eg, on immigration, a yes vote may secure him exactly the same concessions!! Maybe I am being cynical, but keep a close eye on the polls from the ruk, if they show a large swing to no, then think carefully folks, voting no as well may entail giving up on indyref2 in sept 2016. Remember, voting no to stay in the uk was not final, voting yes would have been. MacArt is right, one pile of steaming sh1t at a time folks
It could also be that leaving the eu, would cause huge problems for everyone, this may be the event that Nicola mentioned which swings another 10/15% towards yes
Josephine Mackenzie says:
7:47 am
I have long had my doubts about the SNP.
You think the 56 have become a laughing stock and because of the SNP’s “not one word” in support of Greece you will be changing your vote from the SNP to the Greens? What prey tell have the greens done to swing your support their way?
I hate what is happening to Greece and democracy in Europe as much as most but it’s a huge stretch for it to make me stop supporting the SNP. I smell a rat.
See, I’ve always felt that the best option for Scotland would be the EFTA, same as Norway and Switzerland.
Dodges all the crap, while keeping all the benefits.
I *really* don’t understand why it isn’t being talked about more.
The only reason we have, and continue to have, a Scottish parliament is because it was mandated by the EU, and its continuance is enforced by EU edict. I urge people to look at how it all came about after the 1979 referendum.
Westminster doesn’t want another 3 parliaments vying for a share of its power. If we are taken out the EU, the mandate ends and you can say goodbye to the Scottish parliament, Welsh assembly and N.I. parliament… And while your at it, your human rights as well…
We need independence within the EU, then we either renegotiate our position for our own good, or we leave if our own choosing… Either way the power we have now to become independent comes from the EU, the power we have to change, negotiate or leave can only come from us after we’re independent. I’m as much a euro-sceptic (not anti-europe), but I see how it could be good for us in this regard.
Once independent we could sign up to the Schengen area for trade purposes, or affiliate with other trade partners currently unavailable… Westminster has been siphoning off millions every year of EU subsidy money earmarked for Scottish fisheries and farms, look at the figures of the EU itself, Scotland gets among the lowest subsidy payments in Europe despite being one of its more productive contributors.
I’d like to see how much better off we’d be independent and in the EU before making a decision. The mainstream media are towing the govt. line of anti-EU when we should be questioning just how skewed our view is from what the situation should be.
Sorry O/T
Indy ref 2 coming into the agenda.
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/george-kerevan-have-the-tories-put-scottish-independence-back-on-the-agenda.5082
I tried to hold my whisht about the EU during indyref, but I’m sure I did point to it’s anti-democratic nature and particularly that of the European Central Bank. Here’s what some ‘Euro-skeptics’ had to say, prior to the Bank of England becoming independent. Old analysis perhaps but I think touches on many issues an independent Scotland will face.
All bow before the Stability and Growth Pact….or I will destroy you.
Conclusion
The weight of theoretical and empirical evidence surveyed in this paper suggests that, the creation of an independent central bank in an established national economy, is an enterprise with certain costs and with only dubious prospects of the anti-inflationary benefits so frequently claimed. To transpose such a hazardous undertaking to a supranational framework such as the EU, whose constituent national economies experience varying economic cycles and possess divergent economic structures, is fraught with difficulties.
The decisions taken by the ECB are amongst the most sensitive actions deployed in a modern economy. Determining interest rates influences the growth of living standards, the level of unemployment and the amount that people pay for their credit and their mortgages. However, nobody votes for the ECB, which is unaccountable for its actions. It does not publish its forecasts nor the minutes of its deliberations. ECB members cannot be removed from office by the European Parliament, by the Council of Ministers nor even by the European Court. Therefore the move to ECB control reduces the amount of democracy, increasing disillusionment and grievance with democratic institutions.
The ECB’s problems arise from its lack of democratic accountability, its arbitrary objectives, its outdated economic philosophy, and its potential for intermittent conflict with the national governments whose destinies it possesses considerable influence over. Therefore the ECB as currently constituted is an anti-democratic, economically inept institution. Its lack of accountability, transparency and democratic legitimacy makes clear that no British government concerned for the efficiency of the UK economy and capacity for self-governance could submit to the ECB’s monetary authority. Therefore it is crucial that the British people, if and when consulted, steer clear of this ill-defined, bureaucratic nightmare.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/the-bank-that-rules-europe-the-ecb-and-central-bank-independence.htm?xp=paper
The SNP MP’s are making a difference, especially for Scotland. Stopping Westminster theft from Scotland, showing up Westminster for what it is an undemocratic farce. A bunch of lying charlatans A talking shop for a bunch of out of touch poseurs. They can talk for England. Pity it is a load of nonsense. If that doesn’t put up the Independence vote, nothing will. There is no tomorrow .
The SNP Government in Holyrood are making a total difference. Mitigating Westmister cuts on the most vulnerable. Mitigating the ‘bedroom tax’, the welfare cuts – £100,000 million a year. £300Million over three years. More than the welfare benefit cuts from Westminster. Investing £300Millions iin nursery care. Getting the economy going, creating jobs. Investing in the economy. Building bridges, hospital, roads, houses, railways and keeping folk in work. In spite of Westminster irrational cuts. Investing in Education, supporting students and the elderly care, bus passes and prescription, nurseries places protecting the vulnerable.
Now Holyrood will have to mitigate £1Billon of cuts to the most vulnerable, irrationally coming from Westminster. It will be difficult but they will. They will find a way because Nicola and Co care.They could bring in a higher council tax band (for higher value houses). A tax on non productive land?The money could go down through the Councils to the most vulnerable or direct if there is a way to make a payment. The Councils are the one’s that waste the most money (pro rata).
The Unionist/Green councils waste the most public money which could be better spent. They waste on Orange marches, statues, refusing Gift of £80Million to pedestrianise city centres, spending £Millions vandalising art galleries and paying off private debt. Building carbuncles no one wants and getting into debt. Mismanaging tram construction projects and undercharge fares. The list is endless. Totally against the majority wishes and the public interest. The money saved could be better spent on the most vulnerable, the old, the young, the sick and jobs.
Invest in electric cars (4 times cheaper to run) and solar panels (cheaper over time).Wind, wave, solar energy. Cut Trident/illegal wars invest in Oil in the West and build liners, frigates and supply vessels on the Clyde.
2016 Vote SNP/SSP/Tommy Sheridan.
So its call Kaye this morning again and the issue is Police Scotland. Following the tragic failure to follow up a non-emergency call, two people were left in their crashed car for three days, one dead and one subsequently died. does this mean we have serious problems in Police Scotland as a centralized force ?. First caller – its the fault of the SNP. So sticking to standard profile.
J Mackenzie @ 7.47am I feel very very sorry for you if you feel bowed down and close to being broken.
Scotland is not too wee or too poor to be a member of the EU. But Scotland DOES need to have an independent voice within the EU.
The Greens have some good policies and I am sure they will welcome your vote.
I trust the SNP. And I will continue to take my lead from the SNP on where the people of Scotland will fare best.
Remember, it is the SNP who got us to where we are now. Well along the road to our Independence = )
@Illy
Norway still contributes money to the EU, gets trading benefits but does get influence over policy.
That has always struck me as a ‘taxation without representation’ situation.
For all the garbunkles, I would prefer to see Scotland in the EU as a full member with the full small country benefits like Denmark etc..
Also, England voting No, while Scotland votes Yes does strike me as the ideal conclusion to the perfect storm.
It is not the EU 28 countries It is the zeurozone 17 countries. The Eurozone is solvent. It has less debt spread over more people than most countries in the world, including the UK and the US. The UK (£1.5Trn) and the US (£8.5Trn?) have more debt than the Eurozone. Counties in the Eurozone (except Greece) have to keep a reasonable ratio of debt to capital.. Debt to reserves. The ECB has greater reserves? than the BoE (printing money) QE and Fed Bank (printing money) QE. Without growth lowering reserves. The UK has £8.5Trn assets. The US has £24Trn? assets The ECB has €? assets.
The trouble is the unequal distribution of wealth in some countries. Some countries are more equal, healthy and happier with less debt. People can sleep at night. Tired, worried, cold, hungry people get sick.
I was a definite ‘stay in’ the EU although
not interested in a Eurozone.
The EU did all it could to back Cameron during
IndyRef without seeming to take sides. Unfortunately
Barrosso kind of spoiled that for them.
All that ‘we could tell you Scotland’s position, but
only if the UK ask’ was just pandering to Cameron
(I appreciate this would be termed ‘politics’); the
position of ‘the people’ of Scotland was not given
a second thought.
The EU’s position on Ukraine (where a legitimate
Government was overthrown) & its pro-USA/anti-Russia
stance combined with the treatment of Greece gives
me many reasons to want nothing to do with it but if
we were part of the UK and out of Europe I would fear
for the worst.
I would still vote ‘in’ today but with a heavier heart.
OT I have just switched on Victoria Derbyshire ( who she?)
it is a party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party.
Quite extraordinary.
Ref EU,
I have always preferred the EFTA route, to full membership.
It gives us control over most things including the full extent of our seas, rather than simply a 12 mile strip.
We also benefit by having much more freedom across the board.
While membership of the EU did not cause the Greek debacle, being in the Euro experiment did, it is run by ruthless bankers ( did I spell that right?)
There is no way we should join the corrupt Euro, not if we want to save our country’s assets. Imagine Edinburgh Castle in the hands of a German financier?
Or some of our Islands being sold to a group of financial buddies. This is what they want Greece to do. With it’s islands and historical assets, it is the most important things of value that they have.
EFTA seems the solution for me, much better than take the risks of full membership, and simply never, join the Euro.
To do so would have very many financial trap doors. With Greece, the EU has shown how right wing it is, and how corrupt, and anti democratic. They have let their mantle slip, for all to see.
@broonpot says: 13 July, 2015 at 12:59 am:
“In my view as an independent nation within the EU we should not face the same difficulties as Greece particularly if we are not a member of the Eurozone but retain the pound sterling (even with all of it’s difficulties). This after all was the SNP position going into the referendum”
Very well thought out and to the point, broonpot.
A lot of good sense there. Furthermore, we do have many friends within the EU and we should be very, very suspicious of the many MSM, and in particular, the BBC that we have not. Into the bargain most commenters seem to confuse the chattering of disparate EU Commissioners who are the paid Civil Servants of the EU parliament who have no powers to make decisions excepting when applying EU rules.
It is the MEPs who make the decisions and it is a fact that the EU commissioners, (mostly José Manuel Barroso), oft quoted by the MSM and BBC, always prefaced their pontificating with phrases like, ” This is not specific to Scotland”, or, “I’m not specifically referring to Scotland here”. Which statement in itself, indicates they are answering heavily loaded question by a hostile to Scotland MSM/Broadcaster.
Furthermore, the EU has rules about who can make approaches to the EU which obviously restricts Scotland’s government to what they can ask. Like everything else, if you wish to change an organisation this is best done from within that organisation.
Probably the better approach, for information and complaints, by a Scotland still within the UK, would be via the Council of Europe.
The Greens are untrustworthy. They renege on their own policies and collude with Unionist/Landowners (funded by them) to stop land coming back into the public domain and stop pedestrianisation, tourism etc. Against the majority wishes and against the public interest. They are not the innocents they appear. Naive. Save the world. They couldn’t even save themselves.
Re Greece:
I live in Cyprus – the only other Greek-speaking country in the world and one which many still class as a ‘Greek island’, even in holiday advertisements published by people who really should know better. The situation here is, in many ways, a mirror image of the incompetence and corruption that has landed Greece in its current position.
There are several factors which, historically and currently, have been at work here and, it is probably safe to say, also in Greece:
1. A grossly over-inflated public sector, rife with nepotism, with the most ridiculously generous pay and service conditions imaginable. Guaranteed 13th (and sometimes 14th) salary, free health care for the public servant’s entire family, generous free pension, exemption from paying Social Insurance, job security for life, short working hours. No wonder that the dream of every citizen was to get a job with government. When it was suggested that state employees might pay for their own pensions there was outrage.
2. Endemic tax evasion. I have even had a lawyer ask me if I wanted a receipt, because if he issued one I would have to pay VAT but I could save myself money if we made it ‘cash-in-hand’. Doctors and dentists routinely just slip their fee into a drawer without giving a receipt and almost no-one pays their taxes on time. I am regarded as an oddity because I pay my bills on time and owe nothing.
3. An inefficient, Byzantine legal system which, for example, makes buying a house far from simple and involves all the parties concerned traipsing from office to office, Land Registry, Property Tax Office etc., in person, rather than just letting a conveyancing lawyer get on with it.
4. Stunning government incompetence – no, really stunning. Example: a few years back it was decided that the best thing to do with arms and explosives seized by Customs was not to destroy them. No, they should be stored, in a country where summer temperatures can reach 43C, in metal containers. And (you’ll laugh at this) the best place to keep these was beside the island’s largest power station! When inspectors warned that the explosives were unstable the government waved them away with, “It’ll be alright.” The containers, of course, exploded; killing people and taking out most of the power station (Google ‘Bari explosion’) OK some idiots were jailed but who’s paying to rebuild the power station – that’s right – electricity consumers, whose bills were subsequently hiked to pay for government stupidity.
5. Lack of control over banks which, in Cyprus, led to financial meltdown and private individuals’ bank accounts being raided in a so-called ‘haircut’. Yep, once again government fucks up, ordinary people pay.
I have no reason to doubt (and plenty of anecdotal evidence to confirm) that things have been no different in Greece. Add to this some particularly Greek idiosyncracies, like it taking five years to get a three-year degree because of all the strikes by students and lecturers, and it is no wonder that Greece ended up broke.
It may not have been the fault of individual Greek people but I’m afraid that it was almost certainly the fault of the Greek system.
@caz-m says: 13 July, 2015 at 7:24 am:
“Wullie Rennie on BBC England, telling the world how bad the Scottish Polis are. It’s turning into an “SNP bad” story now.”
Wullie Rennie, as usual, is far too ready to open his mouth and attempt to make anti-SNP/Scottish political capital before there is any substance to back his claims up.
A wiser head than Wullie’s, (and that’s anyone over 3 years old in Scotland), would wait until they had more information. The numptie has had his earse bitten so many times, when jumping in with both feet, you would think he would show some caution but Wullie is Wullie and we expect no more.
There could be any number of different causes for these tragic deaths. All we know so far is that the initial call was not recorded and until we know why it is rather foolhardy to be making any accusations, far less placing blame. The only information so far is that a mistake has been made.
Switzerland wealthy through illegal tax dodging. A Tax haven Ripping off everyone else. London, a tax haven, the illegal tax dodging makes Scotland worse off. Norway wealthy because it invested it’s wealth instead of wasting it. Still has to abide by EU Laws.
Scotland gets more benefits from EU than Norway (needs EU more than Norway for now) Nearest biggest Market, investment Grants, CAP, free trade, social Laws, shared Defence is cheaper. Norway is a different case. Not comparing like with like. Norway has a £500Billion oil Fund. The interest has been invested in the Norwegian economy.
Either away in or out of the EU, Scotland would be better off out of the UK Union.
On other matters both European and corporate.
http://www.alynsmith.eu/snp_reject_messy_ttip_compromise
I was a strong supporter for Yes in Europe. I have to admit that I failed to see just how far the Neoliberals had come in taking control of the EU- I should have known better 🙁
I’m moving towards an Independent Scotland as a member of EFTA. The treatment of Greece was not as a European partner, it was as a naughty child or misbehaving pet!
This doesn’t mean UKIP was right. It only means that the neoliberals in Europe may now help deliver a NO vote in the UK referendum. The vote will be a rejection of the EU currently on display and NOT support for the little Englander stance of UKIP.
I an EU that would help/guide a member state – not one that stood on their fingers as they tried to hold on.
Schrödinger’s cat, I will admit to being torn, my instincts tell me one thing and my head says the other. I have no desire to allow anything to stand in the way of us obtaining Independence, and much as I want to see Greece out of the mire, nobody in Europe apart from those in Galicia and Catalonia and the Basque region raised their voices in support, so I am waiting to see how things pan out. Certainly I will do the opposite of what any Party in the Unionist corner even suggests and I am hopeful that by splitting the vote we can become free.
Josephine McKenzie @ 7.47
“Not one word from the SNP [on Greece]”
You have not been paying attention then.https://commonspace.scot/articles/1764/nicola-sturgeon-breaks-ranks-with-european-leaders-and-calls-for-debt-relief-for-greece
Ms Sturgeon’s position, and hence the SNP’s position, on Greece and the austerity being imposed on it was also set out in an article in the Guardian.
In the EU home fishing ports get an exclusive 100 mile fishing zone. There are less fish because the greedy fishermen over fished the seas. A Scottish Gov would have had to put in conservation, ecology measures to conserve the stock.
I note that the split for iScotland is 43 to 46 percent against with 10 percent don’t know?
No comments on this so far!
The EU members applauded the Scottish MEP’s. Many EU countries have an affection for Scotland. Auld Alliances and history. They can’t stand Nige or the Westminster Tory Gov. Faradge has made £Millions out of the EU, illegally using public money to fund a Political Party. Faradge is a crook. Barrosso facilitated illegal wars against EU/International policies. A crook.
Hitler thought Goebbels said “Tanks” He actually said “banks”.
That seems the best way to occupy a country!!
It’s been quite a sight seeing several Eurozone Finance Ministers treating this as a self-promoting electioneering event. They seem to view the objective of the exercise as promoting their own personal political campaigns back home.
How better to show your austerity creditials by imposing more misery on the Greeks.
While I am still pro EU and against UK/Scotland entry to the Euro my enthusiasm has waned.
Though NOT directly comparable, it will severely dent the credibility of any talk of a currency union involving an independent Scotland.
O/T – Seems Harman’s been got at …
I just wonder how long it took them to come up with that word.
Story here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33503188
I have to say the bully boy tactics used against Greece have weakened my position vav voting to stay in. It does seem to have become something of a ‘rich man’s club’ as opposed to a quasi-political entity.
The only thing keeping me from voting NO is that the UK outside Europe would be an unmitigated disaster for all except the rich.
Is this what happened to Greece? Greek gov borrows too much, just as its spend jumps, credit agency says Greece junk, borrowing costs leap up, here we are. 12% Greek debt went to actual Greek people
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/06/greek-debt-crisis-economy
Here in teamGB, UK.gov with better credit rate borrows a third of its spend year on year. Without Scotland, worthless Scots oil, whisky, dosser Scots scroungers aside, UK.gov borrowing costs would leap up, where’s UK.gov half a trillion borrowed actually gone?
Scotland caught in a gordian knot with our chums in the south, because we’re too small, poor, stupid, and red and blue tories says Scots.gov bad because millions of college places gone now and a tragic car accident means we’re UKOK for ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot
The EU has helped the Eurozone bail Greece out and is still bailing out Greece now. Greece is getting (unlimited) support from the ECB. That is what Is going on, in spite of Germany trying to hold the purse strings.
The alternative would be worse, not just for the EU but for the rest of the world. It was the corrupt last Greece gov (which Greece voted for) that caused many of the problems. The Greeks did take all their money out of Greek banks.The wealthy were not paying taxes and have taken their money abroad. The country has been badly run for years. Hopefully that will change to more responsible government.
The EU has been the greatest organisation for peace in Europe – ever. Whilst I think Greece may have been treated badly now , I remember that Greece has been irresponsible over the last 30 years. There should have been a more humane way to deal with this situation. However if you are not in the EU you cannot influence it’s behavior. Personally I prefer to be in it with or without the rUK and definitely as an Independent Scotland. Only then can we change it for the better.
I think I’ll defer judgement on what’s happening in Greece till we hear from some of our own
All we’re hearing is what the MSM wants us to hear at the moment
We don’t trust a word they say in regards to Scotland, what would make poor old Greece any different
Politics Eh
Or is it Propaganda? Starting to get harder telling the Liars from the good guys
I am as sympathetic towards Greece as anyone in regard to the present crisis, and as fully aware of the EU’s shortcomings and need of reform. However, no one is asking us about Greece-and-the-EU in the forthcoming UK referendum.
However much we may disagree with the EU’s current behaviour, the way we answer the UK question will not affect the Greek issue one way or the other. We have to be realistic, distinguish the issues, and make sure we answer the question that is actually being posed to us. And not diverge to another one that we would like to answer, but which Cameron is not asking us.
The question is not: Do you think the EU is behaving appallingly towards Greece? – Of course we do think that. -But, basically, quite another matter: Do you think the UK should remain in the EU?
We should answer that question in terms of what’s best, at present (i.e. in 2017), for Scotland.
For most of us on this site, Cameron’s question is a daft one. He thinks the the future of the UK is a long and unending one, while most of us would give it – let’s say – about seven years. Fundamentally, we don’t think the UK’s got a future. We are being asked a question about an entity that quite soon will no longer exist. And even if some remnant of the name (rUK) carries on, it won’t include us.
For my part, I will try to remain focused on what really matters to me, and answer the question in terms of what I think is good for Scotland’s future. Those who look forward to Scottish independence will presumably do the same, although they might disagree with my way of seeing it.
Never mind the UK: I will be voting for Scotland to remain (for now, at least) a member of the European Union. Why? So that – morally, at least – Scotland can be considered as such on the day she becomes independent.
AFTER that happy event – butr not before it – a new referendum could be held asking Scots whether or not they wanted to stay in the EU. If such a referendum is what Scots want they will get it, as a sovereign and independent people.
No doubt, such a referendum would take place after discussion of terms between the newly-independent Scotland and the EU – so the issues before us, and the choice to be made, would at last be clear. Something which will not be the case in 2017.
Cameron’s referendum will lack all such precision and clarity (as far as Scotland is concerned), and it will be too early for us to decide to withdraw from the EU. We would be jumping the gun if we decided to withdraw now, in advance of our forhcoming independence. Let me explain why.
If Scotland were to (vote to) leave the European Union at this point in time – in 2017, or whenever Cameron holds his referendum – it would have disastrous consequences for her a few years later, when she does finally become independent.
If she then thought of joining the European Union, having voted to exit it in 2017, the EU would tell her – quite rightly – that she would have to apply for membership as a new member. In that situation, the EU would undoubtedly impose all kinds of conditions on us that would not otherwise have applied. The EU may even be obliged to do so, by its own rules. That will be a bad situation for the new Scotland to be in, right from the outset of its existence.
The best situation for us would be to go into negotiations with the EU as a ‘continuing member’. And Scotland will be able to claim that she is such, SO LONG AS a majority of Scots vote in favour of remaining in the EU in 2017.
If, to the contrary, most people living in Scotland vote against continued membership in 2017, that would leave Scotland in an impossibly weak negotiating position when she does eventually become independent. As a potential ‘new member’ she would no longer ‘inherit’ any of the opt-outs or privileges that currently belong to the UK.
Only if she is instead considered a ‘new but continuing member’ will she have any chance of keeping these. We need a pro-EU vote in Scotland in 2017 so that the EU will be able to accept that our membership stands in continuity with the position enjoyed by the UK over the past 40 years.
If most of us vote aginst ongoing EU membership, there is worse to follow. As a ‘brand-new’ member Scotland would have to accept the euro. Whereas, as a ‘continuing member’, nothing would or could oblige her to do so.
A newly independent Scotland will therefore want to go into these negotiations insisting that she is a ‘continuing member’. I can’t see joining the eurozone being a popular policy, unless some remarkable and very unlikely reforms of the way that currency is managed suddenly take place.
Basically,if Scotland votes against ongoing membership of the EU in the forthcoming referendum, we will have thrown all our cards away in advance of the negotiations we will soon have to enter into. But if we vote in favour of staying in Europe, we will still have all the cards we need.
It is only after independence is achieved that we will be in a position to DECIDE FREELY what relationship with the EU we want to have. That will be the time for us to decide whether to stay in the EU or not. I may be wrong, but I expect we will want to carry on being full Europeans. In a way, we will be experincing what that means for the first time.
Whatever the case, this kind of thing – for an independent Scotland to be or not to be a full member of the EU – is not the kind of thing that can be decided in advance of independence. And it is emphatically NOT the question being posed by Cameron. What we eventually decide will depend on what the EU offers Scotland AT OR SOON AFTER THAT MOMENT, when she becomes independent. And NOT what (if anything)it is going to offer the UK, now, or in 2017.
So 2017 is NOT the time for us, the soon-to-be-citizens of the future Scotland, to be deciding to leave Europe.
Again, we have to look at the question being posed: it’s only about that soon-to-be-defunct entity the UK. And nothing else. It is NOT about that soon-to-be-reborn entity, Scotland. When Scotland is reborn, as an independent nation, then – and then only – it will be the time for the Scots to decide whether to stay in the EU or to leave it. (This will almost certainly take place in another Scottish-only referendum, after newly-independent Scotland’s negotiations with the EU are complete, and her proposed terms of ongoing membership are clearly known and set out.)
We should not be answering ‘tomorrow’s question’ today. And we should not try to cross the second bridge at the moment we are still crossing the one that precedes us.
For those of us who want independence, and expect it to come about in the next few years, the UK question that will be posed to us in 2017 is not an irrelevance, but it means something completely different from what it does to Cameron, or indeed to Unionists of any stripe.
For us the question translates as: What do you want Scotland’s negotiating position with the EU to be when she becomes independent? Do you want her to be able to claim her rights as an ‘ongoing member of the EU’ in these negotiations? If so, vote to stay in.
Or do you want to her to enter these negotiations entirely from scratch, as a complete outsider, as if she is not and had never been a member?
If you vote against the UK’s ongoing membership of the UK, that is in fact what you will be voting for.
For anyone who has Scotland’s long-term interests at heart, the answer to these questions is surely a no-brainer. It is obvious that at independence we will want to start from a position of strength, not weakness. That, moreover, in regard both to the EU and to all our international relations.
At the same time. waverers should be aware that if we become independent with a sound claim to be considered an ongoing member of the EU, that will not oblige us to remain within it for ever. It will just give us a wider and better range of options concerning how we position ourselves before our European neighbours.
If we do the opposite, voting against Europe in 2017, we will reduce our possibilities right from the start, hamstringing ourselves unnecessarily, and for no real gain.
If we become independent while remaining members of the EU it will still leave us free to withdraw from it in our own (Scottish) time, and by our own (Scottish) decision, if and when we see fit. For instance, if the EU refuses to play ball, or fails to act fairly with us, we can always choose to go. The people are sovereign in Scotland, so referenda on major issues will not be lacking.
Specific information regarding how a withdrawal from the EU would affect an independent Scotland, simply will NOT be available in 2017. It will only be worked out and set on the table AFTER we become independent. So let’s not decide the matter before we have what we will need to make a propery informed choice.
Moreover, we simply do not know what the EU will be like when we become independent. Nothing remains static, so it won’t be exactly the same as what it is at present. Let’s say Scottish independence will come in seven or eight years’ time – well, a lot can change in seven years, not just in Scotland but in the European Union too. The EU might be quite a different beast by that time from what it is now. So there will be new things for an independent Scotland to consider which were unknown at the time of the ‘Britexit’ referendum of 2017.
In fact, it might not be unreasonable to hope that by the time we get our independence the EU will be learning from the mistakes it has made, including in regard to Greece. It might even be seriously reforming itself. If so, all the better.
And if that is not the case, an independent Scotland will still be able to walk away from it, if that is what it wants to do. Moreover, we will be able to decide the matter calmly and in our own terms. Without being subjected to all the Brit-manufactured Anglo-centric propaganda that will no doubt obscure the issues for us in 2017, pouring out from both sides of the debate.
If, after gaining our independence, the EU tries to impose conditions on Scotland that we find unacceptable, one option would be to adopt a different kind of relationship with it. Maybe we would prefer the kind of relationship enjoyed by the Scandinavian countries (within EFTA, or something like that). Or maybe we will be able to invent a new kind of relationship altogether. Whatever the case, it can only be decided then, not now.
This is not the moment for making such decisions. So let’s just hang on in there, retaining our rights as EU citizens, and not putting ourselves at the mercy of the UK. That is what will happen if we vote to leave. Are we mad? Putting ourselves at the mercy of successive UK governments that will be hostile to Scotland, and do us nothing but harm?
And – remember this – these right-wing UK governments will be in an even stronger position to do whatever harm they want once they are cut adrift from Europe. Unshackled by the inmhibitions which EU membership places upon them, British bulldog governments will treat Scotland any way they like. It’s already the case, b ut it will then become more so.
These anti-Scottish free-from-Europe UK governments would also with some justification be able to sneer at the whole independence movement, goading us by pointing out that having voted against Europe we have now nowhere to go, if we leave the UK. ‘Who wants you’, they will tell us, ‘except us?’ With no little despising, they will term an independent Scotland ‘Nobody’s Child’.
Divide and Rule: Unonists will in their heart of hearts be hoping that Scotland votes against Europe, even those of them who hope that a pro-European vote in the rest of the UK will turn the overall result the other way. Why? Because they want to divide us against ourselves, and weaken the SNP in the process. Also because they know that if Scotland becomes anti-European, it will weaken the case for independence, and surreptistiously strengthen the Union.
Don’t underestimate them, and prepare for the press onslaught. An anti-European Scotland will never become independent; it will, gradually at first but with increasing inevitability, become a British Scotland again. It will have (just about) nowhere else to go. An anti-European vote will suddenly make independence unlikely again, just when everything was moving in the right direction, towards that outcome.
It is self-evident that the position of strength for Scotland is to remain in Europe, so that she will be able to negotiate her ongoing membership from within the EU, not from outside it.
It is imperative that an independent Scotland will go into these negotiations with CLEAR PRO-EU CREDENTIALS. Without that, we are sunk before we even start. Only a pro-EU vote in Scotland in 2017 can deliver that.
Even if the overall UK vote in 2017 is to withdraw from Europe, if a majority in Scotland nevertheless votes to stay in, we will have these credentials. And they will give us the leverage we need. Independence, moreover, will be nearer than ever with a pro-EU vote in Scotland in 2017.
Whatever we think about Greece or other issues, however much the EU may be in need of reform (and bear in mind you can only reform institutions from within them, not from without), however great our moral indignation about recent events, it would be suicide for supporters of Scottish independence to vote against ongoing membership of the EU in 2017. Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot …
Don’t be deceived by external anti-independence voices that want to destroy the independence movement and prevent it from achieving its goals. Even if we don’t like the EU for all kinds of justifiable reasons, we have to be in favour of it in the 2017 referendum. Whether only temporarily or for ever, at that particular point in time, we mustn’t treat the EU like an enemy. It might be the UK’s (perceived) enemy; it isn’t Scotland’s.
My view is that Scotland will probably be OK in Europe so long as she does not take the euro as her currency. And nothing will requires her to do that, unless a majority of Scots vote to leave Europe in the UK-wide referendum of 2017.
It is also my view that the EU will reform itself. Maybe not as quickly as I would like, but it will. And I want Scotland to be a full participant in that reforming movement. We are, and always have been, a European nation.
With regard to the mistreatment of Greece, my current view is that Scotland should wish to become an added voice helping to prevent such things from ever again happening. Realistically, we will only be able to play any kind of role – even a modest one – in that regard by speaking up for justice from within, as a member-state.
Maybe by the time we gain our independence, I will have changed my opinion on such matters. Who knows? But that will be for me to decide at that point in time, not now, and not in 2017. Not while we are still stuck in the rotting carcass of the UK political system, with all its lies and subterfuge and misinformation.
Moreover, much as I sympathise with the Greeks’ current predicament, I cannot see that our voting to leave Europe in 2017 would help them in any real or practical way. It is not at all sure that a 2017 ‘Britexit’ would be an act of solidarity with them, or lead to any improvement of their situation.
For me, there is only one possible way to vote in the 2017 referendum. What happens after that might prove to be another matter, but we need to get our independence first. Only a pro-European vote will bring that nearer. And only then will we be able to contribute fully and freely to all the other just causes with which we identify, and to which we wish to give our wholehearted support.
I will be voting for Scotland in 2017, which means my vote will be in favour of retaining our membership of Europe. And the rights that go with that membership.
Josephine Mackenzie says:
“But NOT ONE WORD from the SNP”
You clearly misunderstand the way the UK and Scottish MSM works.
The SNP comment on almost everything. I suggest you take a look at their raw press releases.
The problem is the media ignore most of what the SNP say.
This is, of course, intentional and part of the overall Unionist strategy.
The SNP have their faults, nothing and no one is perfect, but they offer our best hope of achieving independence. If Scotland’s future matters to you, it’s hard to see any other option to supporting the SNP in the short term.
The woad to independence
Often disappointing, I couldn’t believe the scots continued to vote labour throughout thatchers years, but eventually, the Tories were defeated in the uk in 1997. But they were destroyed in Scotland. Throughout the noughties, the scots dithered with the idea of the snp, 2007 was an experiment for most, but it was the first time the % of the vote started to pay back. Then in 2010, the scots again voted labour, even after the disasters use crash, Scotland returned exactly the same results as 2005. But their was a difference, we now had a Tory libdem coalition, which within weeks of forming, polls showed the libdems in free fall through out the uk. In 2011, the lib dem crashed but the labour vote in terms of % held up rather better. Nothing, no polls, by elections, elections showed anything else for the libdems, I don’t even think clegg was surprised at mays result. To blame the snp for his demise is laughable.
After winning 45% in 2011, I was concerned when the polls only 30/35% support for yes! but as the ref progressed! more and more labour supporters came on board! I really expected a defining moment when some or all the labour people would cross the floor. It didn’t happen. But it is now clear that the Tories and the libdems are extinct and that labours supporters have started to desert them. We have an election in 2016 where I fully expect the unionists will get another hammering and that support for Indy will be about 51/52%
We will have removed all unionist representatives, Murphy, sarwar, Magritte etc, are but a distant memory, the unionist trumpets in holyrood will follow shortly, we on the other hand have all of the representation there is, and it is the best people, on all sides of the Indy supporters. The unionists only have the traditional MSM to support them.
I think we are in an even better place for Indy 2 than we were for indy1. But we are on a knife edge, Nicola talked about an event which was needed to push the required 10/15% in to the yes camps arms! not sure what that event is yet! I don’t agree with cavanagh that Osborne and Cameron’s buffoonery will be enough! but this issue of the eu has changed in the last 2 weeks even on wos, if today’s comments are anything to go by. Regardless of what happens wrt the eu question, we need to maximize our support from it, take the chances that are offered. Indy 2 is closer than many think. It could be here by sept 2016.
Harman is a caretaker. Lame duck Not the elected leader.
Nigel Lawson has been brought out by the Tory right wing to tell lies about the Greece economy. The hypocrisy. ‘Black Wednesday’ The Tories crashed the UK economy and had to be bailed out by the IMF. Worse than Greece. It was the deregulated (by the Tories) banks that crashed the world banking system. The Tory Party are funded by bankers. The Tory bankers fund the Tory Party. They are screwing the vulnerable to make themselves and their associates wealthy by killing people.
Sorros the Greek Hedge fund speculator, who crashed the UK economy along with the Tory/Unionists, and evaded taxes.
Asset stripping with the intention to privatise all the public services utilities etc is less than humane.
The Greeks will like us in Scotland,have a strong sense of self identity but will like us in Scotland realise that without the control of your own future decisions you have as much direction as a piece of wood on the ocean.
Welcome to servitude my Greek friends.
Ken 500
Read this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Poor-Had-No-Lawyers/dp/178027114X
Andy wightman is sgp no 2 msp on the list in Edinburgh
You may not agree with tactical voting, but still prefer Andy wightman to Ian gray and if indy2 is as close as I think it may be, we will need the sport of the other Indy parties again.
I think the EU has been hijacked by the neo liberal right wing just like the UK.
These bankers have seized control over most of the world and will try to destroy any country that works against them.
Biderberg group being one example.
IMO the EU project is/was a brilliant idea – how do we get it back??
I will vote to come out of the EU, but remain in the EEA, and seek EFTA membership.
The strategy of hoping for England to vote to come out, but Scotland to stay in, and thus precipitate Indyref2 cannot survive recent events in Europe. In any case, the differential margin between rUK and Scotland on the issue was always a bit thin. It may be thinner now.
What a pathetic concern troll above btw. Canna get the staff these days, eh?
@Josephine Mackenzie says: 13 July, 2015 at 7:47 am:
” … The total lack of support from the EU for Scotland’s independence should have been a big red warning sign”.
Whoa! There! Josephine, you have no evidence there is, “a total lack of support for Scotland’s independence”. All you have is the MSM & Broadcaster’s biased reports. Mainly based upon their reports of loaded questions to the then Chief EU Commissioner, Jose Barroso.
Barroso was an EU Commissioner, that is a paid EU Civil Servant with ne decision making powers. He was a also fed loaded questions and then both misquoted and taken out of context by the MSM. Besides which he spoke utter piddle.
Robert Peffers says:
13 July, 2015 at 9:56 am
@caz-m says: 13 July, 2015 at 7:24 am:
“Wullie Rennie on BBC England, telling the world how bad the Scottish Polis are. It’s turning into an “SNP bad” story now.”
Wullie Rennie, as usual, is far too ready to open his mouth and attempt to make anti-SNP/Scottish political capital before there is any substance to back his claims up.
Rennie’s attempt to make political capital out of the recent motorway tragedy is utterly despicable, but so so predictable. Has he no concern for the friends and relatives concerned? As soon as I heard about the awful event, I wondered how long it would take before the wee clown pops up and sure enough, before the dust has settled, up he pops with the same tired old dialogue.
If the Police Scotland’ problems are due to a shortage of cash, perhaps the LibDems can help out by coughing up the 800,000 they still owe them?
Willie Rennie, from a car-crash of a party should be “considering his position” just as Murphy did. The Justice Minister should call him out on his claim of receiving multiple complaints against the police and ask for details. Anybody can claim anything and lies are his party’s stock in trade.
The Scots voted Labour throughout the Thatcher years to keep the Tories out. At that time, given the propaganda, lies and illegally hidden reports etc, it seemed like the best option. Labour/Unionists who were already out of favour showed their true colours at the Referedum. They would rather support Tory/Unionists, than their own people.
Scotland did vote for Devolution and were told a pack of lies about more powers. Theyn vote No on a pack of Unionist lies about more powers. The SNP have open government have opened the books and keep their promises unlike Westminster. The SNP have changed Scotland for the better for good. Scotland will not be maliciously lied about again in the corrupt Union.
They can all complain about our police, but there is far worse in these islands.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2937297/Rude-lazy-intolerant-public-s-verdict-police-complaints-against-forces-hit-new-high-35-000.html
( was not reading the Mail, god forbid!, from google.)
@ wull – my thoughts as well, but could you do a shorter version that I can post elsewhere, maybe via a link or some such?
German rhetoric has indeed been disgraceful, these people forgot their auld arse when they got their new wan. What is the present-day value of the US bail-out of Germany post war?
I think we are in an even better place for Indy 2 than we were for indy1.
Why though? Smith Commision farce may give up PAYE tax hike power, with permission from Fluffie, but raising taxation in 8% of teamGB economy is a complete and utter no go.
All the Smith con did, give a lunatic the chance to seriously damage Scottish productivity, which again is what its for. Imagine a SLabour Scots.gov under the control of Labour run by likes of latest red tory leader candidates.
https://twitter.com/proftomkins
This dudes the archetypal hatchet man, he helped produce Smith and he says over and over, any kind of devo at all would be in direct opposition to the democratic will of the Scottish people that voted NO and remain in their farce union, despite their The VOW fraud.
Without any devolved economic leavers Scots.gov cant even begin to show that Scotland can function and thrive running its own economy.
And without that ability, the soft No’s and don’t know middle class Scotland won’t budge. Without them, it’s not going to happen, to paraphrase that bootboy tory up there.
Bish bosh, rule Britannia Scottish bums and scroungers. Leave it to the City and the red or blue tory party, they’ll look after Scotland alright.
Off topic
My posts appear to be disappearing. Looking out for this one
caz-m: “Why was the Greek Government buying so much military hardwear?”
Well, Greece and Turkey are not the best of pals, and they share a land border. Not to mention the continuing situation in Cyprus. And then there’s the fact that Greece is the EU country nearest the Middle East. That’s pretty much why they have the second highest military spending in NATO (behind the US) in terms of proportion of GDP.
I have always been for EEC/EFTA for iScotland but EU for UK. I certainly intended to vote for the UK to stay in, mainly hoping for the forced-out scenario leading to Indyref2.
Part of the reason was that it could only be a good thing for UK to be made to uphold european standards but that is not the case. Despite being demonstrably below the welfare and pensions required by EU absolutely nothing has been done about it. Nevertheless, it would probably be worse out.
This with Greece, just awful. I think Tsiparis blew it when he let Yaroufakis go because they didn’t like negotiating with him (Now there’s a surprise, they didn’t like negotiating with someone who had a complete understanding of the issues and who would stick to his line!).
Then there is the whole issue of refugees fleeing from the wars created by USUK mainly with EU backing.
So although I would have tactically voted to stay in and probably will, it depends somewhat on how things pan out. I will not vote tactically to stay in against my conscience.
The Tories on the warpath again causing more trouble and death of the vulnerable and wasting public money. Alcoholic make poor decisions. US/UK funded, supported and armed Daesh to fight in Syria. The US/UK want to destroy the world. UK/US and France have been illegally killing, stealing and maiming in the Middle East for over 100 years.
Stop dumping illegal nuclear waste at Faslane and Rosyth in Scotland.
@Illy says: 13 July, 2015 at 8:41 am:
“See, I’ve always felt that the best option for Scotland would be the EFTA, same as Norway and Switzerland.
Dodges all the crap, while keeping all the benefits.
I *really* don’t understand why it isn’t being talked about more.
Sheesh! The load of crap, Illi, is from you.
Both Norway and Switzerland must pay exactly the same dues to be in EFTA as the rest of the full members of the EU do and they both must observe the same rules & regs as the other EU members but neither country has any say in EU decision making.
In other words the have all the drawbacks but not all the benefits. Reading through these comments exposes just how very effective the Establishment anti-EU propaganda has been. First of all the EU does not control their members as the UK controls their countries.
Secondly the idea the EU parliament is anti-Scottish is based upon the MSM’s false reports of mainly the last EU chief commissioner and commissioners are NOT members of the EU parliament they are paid for Civil Servants with no decision making powers. In any case, besides being misquoted, Barroso blethered pish.
Thirdly being an EFTA member means you pay the same dues, obey the same rules but have no part in decision making.
Ken 500 @ 10.50
George Soros is Hungarian by birth.
While folk are correct that this is the Eurozone and not the EU, that doesn’t change the fact that this is happening entirely within the EU. It is still EU members like Germany, Finland and Netherlands who are willing to ride roughshod over Greek democracy, and displaying absolute contempt towards the people of Greece. It is EU members who seem willing to see Greece brought to its knees and a population utterly destroyed. It is EU members that are choosing neoliberal dogma over solidarity and social justice.
Combined with the way the EU treated Scotland during the indyref, it’s pretty reasonable that folk are asking if these are really the kind of people we want to be in a club with. Of course, realpolitik will probably win over in the end, but to pretend that it’s possible to completely isolate the current situation as being just about the Eurozone seems, to me, a bit bizarre.
The eagerness of a particularly odious example of unionist politician to exploit a tragedy before it’s even been properly investigated is saddly unsurprising.
I think we need to think of Scottish Independence first. We need to vote to stay inside Europe.
Nicola Sturgeon has said that Scotland voting to stay inside Europe and England voting to leave, could trigger another Independence Referendum.
So my advice would be to persuade as many of our friends south of the border to vote to leave the EU. Join in their forums and actively campaign as if you are want to leave as well. I do it with any English person I start a conversation with.
I pretend to them that I agree with their anti-European stance.
It’s what’s known as tactical voting, isn’t it?
Scottish Independence first, then we can deal with the EU, once we are an equal partner. And remember, an Independent Scotland will have a far bigger say over our place in Europe, because at the moment Scotland has no powers.
First things first: independence for Scotland.
Here are some ‘not’ smiley faces! In the Herald.
We have looked at every single press release issued by the SNP, Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives and the Scottish Liberal Democrats since April 1 of this year.
Our checks show that during this period – which includes the general election and its aftermath – that the SNP were obsessed, but with austerity, not independence.
https://archive.is/EJAhJ
At heed
think we are in an even better place for Indy 2 than we were for indy1.
I don’t disagree, I never believed smith or Westminster would deliver anything, I only emailed smith because people here argued that I should
I still maintain we are in a better position than indy1, having and continuing to remove the unionist trumpets, huge increase in membership and activists across the board, and I believe Indy support is about 48%
I also can’t see where we get another 10% from! or what this event is that ns mentioned! but we are where we are, which I still maintain is better! at the very least! not having to listen to st. Murphy is an improvement. It is the environment which is changing, this will either help or hindering. Eg, another crash which hammered pensions might favour yes, re the eu situation, I’m not sure how this will pan out. I’m not even sure of the number of soft nos left who we can target, ?
liz
The Bildernerg Group was established in order to encourage and facilitate the creation of the EEC and to promote the Atlatacist’s dream of spreading Anglo/American hegemony to the borders of Eurasia. In case folk have not yet realised, the EU and Nato are two of the key instruments by which the USA has advanced its interests since the end of WW2. The invitation list to the inaugural Bildernerg meeting, was drawn up by the OSS, forerunner of the CIA. Still trust the EU?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/controlling-the-global-economy-bilderberg-the-trilateral-commission-and-the-federal-reserve/14614
The fear mongering from Unionists and the fearful forget, had Scotland not gone with a currency union but instead tagged to another currency, such as the dollar, we would be the wealthiest small country on the planet with NO debt.
Greece has amassed massive debts, in large measure not from its own devices.
TeamGB mobilises its hard right creep show
https://archive.is/LJbx2
Scots have warned the SNP not to reverse George Osborne’s tax cuts.
An exclusive opinion poll for the Scottish Daily Mail found only 9 per cent of voters want Nicola Sturgeon to raise income tax when MSPs take control from Westminster.
Alarmingly for the SNP, support for lower taxes was strongest among its own voters – at 31 per cent.
Some lovely Heil stuff on “hand outs” too.
Scottish Labour leadership candidate Ken Macintosh has challenged his rival for the Scottish Labour leadership to a live, head-to-head televised debated.
The Eastwood MSP said this would give party members a proper insight into their policy differences.
He wants to quiz rival Kezia Dugdale directly because he believes it is the best way to expose the significant differences in their plans for the party and their style of leadership.
His team has already approached STV and BBC Scotland to ask if they would be prepared to stage a live debate.
———————————————————
Imagine! 🙂
A whole hour maybe of SNP bad and Scottish labour must listen to the people… better to just post a wee minions badge with a UKOK labour logo on it to all your registered voters. Save us all some time.
Meanwhile in darkest tory land: Hear; Speak and Say no evil!
David Mundell refuses to say when he first saw or became aware of the memo, which wrongly suggested Nicola Sturgeon wanted David Cameron to remain Prime Minister.
Doug Daniel
You would have thought that if Greece is NATOs last line of defence, then NATO could have opened up bases in Greece, instead of Greece buying all this military hardwear, which the rest of Europe knew they could not afford.
Didn’t the Americans do a similar deal with Turkey? They put their equipment on Turkish soil.
It just seems crazy that Greece would spend their last pennies buying submarines from Germany.
And it is now Germany screaming to get it’s money back. knowing that the Greek economy is on it’s knees.
Re new hospital
I checked into the new hospital a month ago today for an op unfortunately there were complications and I had to have a 2nd emergency op.
Whilst there are a few teething problems , I can tell from first hand experience that this is an amazing facilty and the staff are brilliant. This Hospital is a facility to be proud of and anybody using any perceived shortcomings to make a polital point are just scum.
That is like results I have seen in the past where when EU membership is tied to independence, either way.
These polls produced a very predictable result and one less so.
First the predictable one.
The result for Indy + EU and Indy – EU is much less for either than straightforward support for independence.
Which isn’t surprising at all statistically from the simple product of probabilities.
To give an example.
If 70% of a population randomly support option A and 70% randomly support option B and a referendum for assessing those supporting A + B were held then, statistically, we would expect only 49% to do so (with 21% who supported A but not B being ‘lost’ to the A cause and vice versa to the B cause).
i.e. both options would fail even despite both commanding 70% of the population’s support.
Not even statistics 1.0.1
Yet, inexplicably, for some years, the SNP persisted in having ‘Independence in Europe’ as their preferred referendum question option. Of course back then the SNP were not possessed of the talent pool they have now, but still surprising.
When Salmond took over for the second time, they quickly dropped that to just Independence.
But dismayingly, to me, during the indy ref they refused to offer a post indy EU ref which I am sure lost some support for independence.
Now the less obvious result.
In past polls, not only has support for Indy + EU and Indy – EU been, individually, predictably less than that for just plain Indy but the sum of Indy + EU and Indy – EU has been less than the known total indy support.
Again we can see this in the above result where the sum total for Indy is only 43%, less than other recent Indy only polling shows.
At first, this does not seem to make sense, since both options are covered EU and no EU.
However, after a bit I realised there is another option not covered.
It is those who are pro Indy, but are undecided on the EU.
So when it comes to the two provided options in an opinion poll, they genuinely cannot honestly answer either affirmatively.
That leaves them either to select DK or to select the status quo (in UK, in EU) as a holding option.
Of course, polling is one thing and a real referendum is another in that there is, in the pollee’s mind, ‘no harm done’ in an opinion poll by expressing their opinion (clue in the name) but for a real referendum most, thankfully, are likely to opt for Indy anyway. But, crucially, not all.
To cover things properly you need another option which goes something like:
An Independent Scotland but I am as yet unsure about the EU
This is also a criticism I have made of the SSAS (Curtice) both here and elsewhere in the past.
Och!
I say, I say, I say! Should have been ‘see’ in the last post.
But trying to do two things at once here.
In the middle of a nit clean, both of partners grandchildren been away for a week at a camp thing, applying the magic potion now and they’ll be gone in 15 minutes.,
The nits, not the grandchildren…all the ‘group infected’ epidemic time. 🙂 or 🙁
Wish it was as easy to dispose of the tories.
Schrödinger’s cat says:
13 July, 2015 at 11:53 am
At heed
It looks like any formal devo-max will never be allowed by Westminster, so bits of devo may only come via Cammers very slim tory majority and five years of right and further right infighting over Brexit etc.
Smith gave up virtually nothing but more shite for Scotland in Smith Commission. The VOW was the perfect fraud on Scotland. Want devo-max? well tell them they have it.
But tories will have at least some Scots devo that they will give up to Scotland, if they do need 56-57 SNP votes. John Major’s “bastards” showed they probably will and he had a far bigger majority than Cameron. Scotland’s been perfectly fcuked over once again by red and blue tory for Westminster power plays but this is what happens when you vote proud Scot butwise. You’re merely a pawn for our imperial masters and EVEL makes you even less relevant in teamGB.
So in five years time, Holyrood may have corp tax(but cant change it) and air passenger duty like a Northern Ireland UKOK region. BBC etc will use their all their charming powers to make the SNP and Scots.gov as toxic/invisble as humanly possible. And there’s not a thing anyone can do about it but hope hard right tory bastards really kick off.
@ Robert Peffers
I agree that we have been misled by MSM re the EU’s attitude to our independence. I heard several EU officials and experts/advisers debunk a lot of what was broadcast by MSM and the UK government.
However, this is an utter debacle where Greece is concerned and I don’t think the EU is behaving well at all. They seem to be unconcerned about Greek citizens and their plight. No matter who is to blame, they can’t pay back if they cannot earn. The EU is displaying the same disgraceful mindset towards citizens as our very own excuse for a government.
I think, even if the EU can convince people that they are right in priniciple, that untold damage may have been done to the idea of European unity.
Two questions:
* How and why did Greece take on all that debt in the first place? I am not against debt relief, but there is no need to see this problem reoccur somewhere down the line.
* What does the example of Greece mean in terms of a future iScotland using sterling (or even the Euro, for that matter?) Iceland had its own currency, meaning that it was insulated, to a degree, from the forces which struck Greece.
Have to agree with ian more, not a fan now of the eu after none of them backed us on independence.
What we know
If there’s anything good going on with the SNP at the moment we’re not going to know
The MSM is working overtime to keep it off the telly and off the radio North and South of the border
Everything not good is being pumped up like crazy even unimportant stuff is having the hell exaggerated out of it
Wee example the Tennis final
Whenever that’s on, the camera is never off the Royal Box picking out the great and the good
Anybody notice during the doubles final we had more shots of the crowd and Rellys and practically none of the Posh bit (Why?)
Nicola Sturgeon was there with Peter
Presentation at the end was in the box, whereupon the First Minister was blocked from view by a flunkie person
Now I couldn’t care less about the Tennis although Jamie Murray did rather well and came second in the entire world, which is pretty OK in my book, but if any other politician from any other party had been there we’d most likely have been regularly treated to views of said people Ooing and Aahing at various points throughout the match
There have been a few quite important announcements made by the First Minister in recent weeks which have never been shown on telly but if Andy Burnham or Kezia Dugdale sniffs it’s news
This applies to STV as well, it would seem that all of our
“Scottish Media” are operating a ( Keep that Wummin aff the telly ) campaign
STV more recently have been constant with their Labour Party Broadcasts, Ridiculous Rhona’s neverending whining
“But what are Scottish Labour going to do to beat the SNP”
“How do you go about dismantling the SNP machine”
These are in a whiny high pitched voice, phrases actually used by our National Unbiased Broadcaster
Sorry to go on a bit today
got myself a little irritated this morning by the constant denial of Scotlands existance without the benevolence of the “Big England” without whom we would surely all perish from the face of the earth
I’m hoping that Scotland votes to stay in Europe in the expectation that England will vote to leave. That should help initiate another independence referendum. Once independence is regained we can decide our own future.
Hobbit says:
They took on the debt due to hard line right wingers in the previous Greek parliaments. Who were in league with iffy bankers and EU right wingers. The people did not take on the debt, corrupt politicians did for their gain.
Sound familiar??
Schrödinger’s cat at 11.53
There is absolutely no definitive evidence about where the independence vote is at the moment. We only needed a one in ten change to reverse the “result” and we must be somewhere near that now.
Two points.
1) If we wait for opinion polls to tell us we will win we could well wait forever.
2) In the short term we may rail against austerity to some effect. A significant section of the population think it might be the right policy,however, and the MSM will lead them to that view.
(Note: I am entirely opposed to austerity not only because it harms the less able very seriously but also because as an economic tool it doesn’t work. It is traditional Tory prejudice – shrink the welfare state at every opportunity – masquerading as policy).
However our very vocal opposition to austerity can have an unintended to consequence with some of our most entrenched opposition. The significant section of the population which voted NO because they believed we get subsidy from the UK are very easily persuaded that independence will make the austerity worse.
We are still not fighting our most important battle
I would say the EU has shown its ghastly neo-liberal underbelly during the Greece affair. I don’t know what has been said to Tsipris to make him fully capitulate (if indeed he has now) but the whole thing does lead one to think we really are getting towards some western government of neo-liberal elites.
What about the behaviour of the ECB. A central bank is supposed to be non-political. It’s remit is to provide reserves to banks in order to ensure their liquidity to keep a stable economy. It has refused to do this with Greece. That should tell us everything about the ECB.
Greece is a symptom of a greater malaise. If it’s not Greece it will be somewhere else.
Currency unions work with fairly similar economies. Germany has enjoyed the fruits of the euro being undervalued, which boosts its exports, other countries which import more are burdened by it. Perhaps Germany should pay a levy.
Anyway, as an employee I favour the protection of the EU, especially with us being under Tory rule.
In an independent Scotland I’m not so sure.
Hi Wull.
“Never mind the UK: I will be voting for Scotland to remain (for now, at least) a member of the European Union. Why? So that – morally, at least – Scotland can be considered as such on the day she becomes independent.
AFTER that happy event – but not before it – a new referendum could be held asking Scots whether or not they wanted to stay in the EU.”
Totally agree. Achieving independence is the priority. After independence, the people of Scotland can have a vote on staying in the EU, leaving, applying to join EFTA, or standing alone.
As others have typed, it could be a mistake to tie staying in the EU to the vote on independence.
@heedtracker says: 13 July, 2015 at 10:26 am:
“Scotland caught in a gordian knot with our chums in the south, because we’re too small, poor, stupid, and red and blue tories says Scots.gov bad because millions of college places gone now and a tragic car accident means we’re UKOK for ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot
On the subject of that tragic accident a little more information is beginning to leak out. It seems the report made to the police was made on the 101 non-urgent number.
I quote you the UK government instructions about the non-urgent number : –
(Emphasis Mine).
Personally I cannot blame the person who phoned in as there was probably no indication of the seriousness. I live close to what was a known bad bend where the unwary would often end in the field. During one spell, (when loose chippings had built up on the bend), it was common to see vehicles left in the field after accidents for several days.
The bend was within close view of several cottages so passing vehicles would naturally assume accidents had been reported. As I said up-thread it probably was a simple misunderstanding on someone’s part.
Grousebeater @8.22am
“With an increase in youth unemployment comes some dim Tory hack to propose conscription is reintroduced.”
I just read an article entitled ‘The Unseen March’ by the Quakers. I was unable to archive it as my abacus here has limited capabilities. In short, the article refers to the underhand glorification of war and the plans to introduce military groups into comprehensive schools. Worth a read.
The level of naivety on here is breathtaking.
Sigh, I do wish that people would ease up on their pet theories as to why No won last year. Sorry, but it’s all bollocks. 🙁 The referendum was simply held too soon. End of. There was amazing movement to YES during the campaign, which now continues at a painfully slow pace (sorry folks, these things cannot be rushed). Don’t make the mistake of over-rationalising it – we are dealing with personal belief systems here, not logic, and people need time to change strong beliefs (often held over a lifetime). And then there is the inbuilt resistance to change that many humans have. The fact that we overcame so much and took it to 45%, in the face of a powerful, well-orchestrated media onslaught was remarkable.
What’s more, if the YES campaign had been so flawed, do you think that 56 SNP MPs would have been elected in May? Where did that come from? Given the jump from below 30% to 45% over the 2-year campaign, as far as general strategy and battle tactics for Indyref2 go, I would say:
Don’t change a thing.
We are getting there, but we all need to calm down a bit and let “nature” take its course. For what it’s worth:
I have 2020 vision – that’s when the next IndyRef will be.
And we will win! 🙂
Agree caz-m, as a scot living in england i’ll be voting to leave the eu in the hope that it speeds up independence for scotland.
@Bill,
Big claim— no explanation—-expand please
Re The EU:
My preference has always been within some form of Nordic alliance but don’t, at present, have a strong view one way or the other just as long as Scotland is free from Westminster rule.
_____
Lenny Hartley wrote @ 12.07pm:
Re new hospital
“This Hospital is a facility to be proud of and anybody using any perceived shortcomings to make a political point are just scum.”
Indeed, Lenny!
And i think you’ll find the vast majority of those criticising are your Willie Rennie types with ulterior motives and have had very little or no experience of said facility.
_____
@ Dave McEwan Hill:
We have all witnessed you attempting, on many occasions, to get the ball rolling on your theory of promoting a self sufficient and prosperous Scotland minus her oil and it’s a theory a lot of us agree with, myself included. I am in the process of trying to locate some pre referendum material which will help to reinforce our belief. If i haven’t binned it i will post it on WOS whenever i come across it. We really do need to push this idea.
Greece fears Turkey. There has been conflict before. Italy (Gremany) invaded Greece in the 11WW. Historically it was German and Italan regimes which caused the debt iand devastation in Europe. .
A Unionist Local Authority (LibDem?) appointed House. Running about with guns when not answering help calls.
@galamcennalath says: 13 July, 2015 at 10:46 am
“You clearly misunderstand the way the UK and Scottish MSM works.
The SNP comment on almost everything. I suggest you take a look at their raw press releases.
The problem is the media ignore most of what the SNP say.
Very well said, galamcennalath, but I’ll supplement that as they do not just not report what the SNP says they also misreport and quote out of context.
I suggest commenters bookmark the SNP website : –
http://www.snp.org/
And the Holyrood Parliament website :-
http://www.gov.scot/#slide/2
Also Holyrood TV : –
http://www.scottishparliament.tv/?vid=live-chamber
@Jimbo
“I’m hoping that Scotland votes to stay in Europe in the expectation that England will vote to leave. That should help initiate another independence referendum. Once independence is regained we can decide our own future.”
If that happens, we will almost certainly lose, even if Indy enjoys a 10 point lead at the time.
Think about it.
Another referendum right after there has been one on EU membership.
EU membership has always been a contentious issue and after a, no doubt, gruelling and brutal campaign pro and anti EU folk will be more polarized on that issue than ever before.
Now consider the Scottish anti EU support. They will, naturally, still be in various stages of euphoria having just won that referendum.
Then you hold an indy ref2. How do you think those anti EU but pro Indy folk will vote then?
It is one thing to expect them to vote Indy and defer their dislike of the EU at other times when that option has yet to be decided at some future date but quite a different matter when asked to voluntarily vote away something which the have recently already secured.
I think a post EU referendum Indy Ref2 would be suicidal for the indy movement at that time.
Sure, some anti Indy, pro EU support might be gained, but far fewer in number than will be lost.
Disappointed that this was highlighted as an example of ‘changed circumstances’, I don’t think they have thought this through.
Call me Dave,
Re a head to head with K Dugdale.
If it’s to try to appeal to Labour voters , well Ken hire the Hydro , debate to your hearts content but don’t be so lazy , cheapskate and arrogant to think the TV nation is waiting on Labour to select their next branch manager.
Get one of your activists to livestream it and anyone interested can tune in .
They can’t all live in Liverpool ?
Yes it’s a tough one Ken trying to get the media to report you point of view – ha ha ha
Chic McGregor
Chic, I was never of the opinion that Britain (essentially England), would vote to leave the EU, though I won’t be putting any money on it. 😉
As such, i think it unlikely that circumstances WILL change in this way, but they COULD. 🙂
Dave McEwan Hill says:
There is absolutely no definitive evidence about where the independence vote is at the moment. We only needed a one in ten change to reverse the “result” and we must be somewhere near that now.
Polls are never definitive in the sense they are snapshots of the future, which is always unknown
But they do give an indication of how things are moving, that’s why stu carries them out and we crowd fund him to do so
I agree with your 10 figure is required, but last poll showed on 48% yes
Two points.
1) If we wait for opinion polls to tell us we will win we could well wait forever.
And if they do show that we could win, it will help us to decide when to go to the polls
I also think Westminsters buffoonery will help our cause, I just tend to agree with heed tracker that it won’t give us the 10% swing we need unfortunately! I hope it does by the way.
I also agree with the success of the yes campaign to get us where we are ATM. It was also a lot of fun, except the bit right at the end of course.
I’m still optimistic thought, I can’t see where the game changer is going to come from, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be one. I think if it happens, we are wel placed to take advantage of it
Whatever happens with Greece, they do have a choice. They could grexit, but seem not to want to. Sure, the EU could be less stringent but I wouldn’t prioritise EU membership over independence. Whatever suits Indy, suits me.
Big Question for me is how the pro UK, pro EU vote breaks down if England votes no.
Robert Peffers @ 1.14
I know the section of motorway where this happened and the motorist who reported it was really doing well to spot the car.
The steep banking planted with treesvwhere the car ended up runs along a section of motorway beside a slip road which itself splits into two shortly after leaving the motorway so you have to keep your wits about you and your eyes on the road.
To spot the car would be difficult let alone anyone in it.
I think there are too many people who try to extrapolate from any incident to lay the blame at the door of the Scottish Government.
In this case they should wait for the results of the various inquiries before sounding off especially Mr Rennie.
Just spent a couple of days in Oban the friendly toon. Travelled by train from Glasgow, whilst passing through Drumry station I spotted a shed with massive SNP signs on it! Well done to that Man who created it.
Very tricky this.
Selfishly think it will be a big ask for people to vote to leave UK and EU if we ever get #indyref2
People are scared of change.
Those clued up will not be as scared and that is why WofS and WBB were and are so important.
That said EU membership and currency Etc are exactly the type of issues that SNP/pro indy parties will need to work on and identify clear exit/entry strategies going forward.
Also more positive stories on how all the wee countries manage to get by would help.
Just been reading about the oil and gas in Greek waters – anyone know much about this? Or able to source something more current? http://www.forbes.com/sites/christophercoats/2013/12/12/how-real-is-greeces-oil-and-gas-future/
Think chic is right, the option of a conditional indyref2 if the uk withdraws is now no longer an option
I held out some hope that this would be the game changing event that we needed, but actually, I thought it wouldn’t happen since both Scotland and the uk would vote yes
But the way the eu has acted wrt Greece these last 2 weeks has me wondering if both Scotland and the ruk won’t vote to leave.
Difficult to see how Nicola can make capital out of this situation
@caz-m says: 13 July, 2015 at 11:45 am:
“Scottish Independence first, then we can deal with the EU, once we are an equal partner. And remember, an Independent Scotland will have a far bigger say over our place in Europe, because at the moment Scotland has no powers.”
I’ll give you a far better way of working it, caz-m. An independent Scotland in the EU as a full equal member that is prospering, along the same lines as Norway, will be a shining beacon to the people of the EU, or indeed in the World, that the neo-con blueprint is a farce and there are better ways to run a country.
No reasonable person would aspire to make it by the bulk of their people in dire poverty and a small handful so rich they can never spend their wealth. Not when there are a few countries that care for their entire population and run a prosperous and equitable country.
Britain is in the same boat as Greece as far as being armed to the teeth while kids live in poverty. Trident replacement £150 billion. Lunacy!
A Scotland or uk along the lines of Norway… Is that what the no vote is supposed to secure.?
Wonder if this will get a wee mention on the news later?
No “SNP bad” quotes from Kezia or Wullie.
Ruthie away on holiday haven’t heard from her in a few days.
https://archive.is/3ESeY
Ken500 says:
13 July, 2015 at 1:27 pm
Greece fears Turkey. There has been conflict before. Italy (Gremany) invaded Greece in the 11WW. Historically it was German and Italan regimes which caused the debt and devastation in Europe.
It’s also worth reminding folk that stubborn Greek resistance during WW2 probably saved all our asses. The Italians invaded Greece in 1940 but got their asses kicked. Hitler was forced to intervene and wasted vital time and resources that many historians argue led to his failure to reach Moscow in 1941 and defeat the Soviet Union.
Whether any of us like the EU or not, for those of who want Scotland to become independent there is one sensible way to vote in Cameron’s referendum on Europe. He is not asking us whether agree with the EU’s behaviour towards Greece, or not, and the result won’t make any difference to that issue. He is not even asking us whether we agree with the EU’s policies. some of which we might find highly dubious, or the way it operates.
All he is asking is whether we want the UK to remain in Europe in 2017 (or whenever he pops the question). The answer must be that we do. Why? For Scotland’s sake, nothing else.
For the simple fact is that we want Scotland to become independent as a member state of the EU. If the Scottish vote in 2017 is pro-European we will be able to claim that we never left the EU, even if the rest of the UK does. We will have the moral right to reclaim our membership (which rUK, not the EU, took from us). And if rUK also votes in favour of Europe (which is what we should be hoping for) then we will really become independent within Europe, as an already existing member, with all our rights etc. intact.
That is by far the best situation for an independent Scotland to start from. Insofar as there will have to be some kind of negotiation between a newly-independent Europe and Scotland, that is the ideal starting-point.
If afterwards, with independence assured, the EU doesn’t play fair with us, or tries to impose unacceptable conditions, then we can always hold a referendum on ongoing membership – yea or nay – once we are independent. Whatever deal they offer us, we will then be able to vote on it. It is only at that point in time, when the deal on offer to the new Scotland is clear, and known, that we will be able to make the right decision. According to what is in Scotland’s best interests, and taking into account other possible options (EFTA etc.).
The worst position for an independent Scotland to start from would be as an outsider to Europe, asking to join as a brand new memeber. The EU will take that as our situation if the Scots vote against Europe in 2017, especially if rUK does the same. Then we will be sunk before we have even started, because the EU, by its very own rules, will impose the euro on us and nobody in Scotland will want that.
If a majority of Scots vote in favour of remaining in Europe in 2017, we will have kept all the cards we need for the negotiations we will then have to carry out with the EU. But if a majority of us vote to withdraw from the EU in 2017, we will have thrown all our cards away in advance.
Which way should we vote in Cameron’s European referendum? It’s a no-brainer. The answer’s obvious. We vote to stay in Europe in function of ensuring that Scotland is in the best possible position when she becomes independent. What happens after that will depend on … well … it will depend on what WE decide after we become independent.
@call me dave says: 13 July, 2015 at 12:14 pm:
“The nits, not the grandchildren…all the ‘group infected’ epidemic time. 🙂 or 🙁
Wish it was as easy to dispose of the tories.”
Of course it is just as easy to dispose of Tories – – If you treat them just like the nits and poison the buggers.
;-))
Haven’t read all comments so it’s probably been said already, I was prepared to vote to stay in the EU if it would help to further the wedge between Scotland and Westminster and hasten Independence but now I just don’t think I could vote for the EU.
It’s been obvious for a number of years now that the unelected bureau/technocrats of the EU are just placepersons for the neo liberal neo con project.
The EU stinks, they’re itching to pass TTIP, and if there isn’t total havoc on the streets of all major European cities, hopefully spreading to London, as a public response to that then we will have effectively capitulated and will deserve what we get…. which won’t be nice.
I am an unashamed European Dreamer.
This is all very muddled and sad.
The European project was a noble plan that went far beyond simple free trade. Those who founded it had seen at first hand the disaster of Europe fighting itself and wanted to make that impossible. They believed in solidarity between nations and social progress. Sadly those people are fast passing away and we are loosing that memory. We have been protected from some of the worst excesses of Right wing Capitalism by the bare minimum of social decency that is acceptable to other European workers. This is expressed in the (much maligned by right wing press) European Directives, the most important one in my work (Medicine) is the European working time directive which I am sure has saved many patient’s lives from mistakes by overtired workers.
The conditions for Greece to enter the Euro were fudged because there was a political will to include them and to ensure that they were not left behind. The levers of power have since been taken over by NeoLiberals who have no understanding of social solidarity and would love to crash the whole project except for ‘free trade’ which is a cover for the worst kind of predatory capitalism.
It is not the fault of the dream but of those who have highjacked democracy. I still prefer Germany within the European framework. The alternative of a Germany flexing it’s muscles Putin style is a complete nightmare.
Greece, Spain, ?France and Scotland need to show a better way, we need to reclaim democracy.
I hope the noble dream of European social solidarity can be rescued.
Hi Wull.
“Then we will be sunk before we have even started, because the EU, by its very own rules, will impose the euro on us and nobody in Scotland will want that.”
I did a fair bit of reading on this subject last year. As I understand it, the situation with new members of the EU is that they must commit to adopting the Euro, at some point, but there is no enforced timetable.
I take that to mean that it would be up to an independent Scotland to make its own choice of currency on independence. Subsequently, to change the cuurency situation would require a referendum.
I am presently undecided about the EU. TTIP does concern me greatly.
So this question reveals the following. Excluding the Don’t Konws.
Pro Indy = 48.3%
Anti Indy = 51.7%
Pro-indy is catching up and looks like it will reach parity a lot faster than I thought.
Enlightening interview here with Yanis Varoufakis, former syriza Greek chancellor…
https://archive.is/1T4uR
Apologies its in the new statesman but very much a read.
@michael diamond says: 13 July, 2015 at 12:36 pm:
“Have to agree with ian more, not a fan now of the eu after none of them backed us on independence”
That is simply not true, Michael. Scotland has many friends in the EU parliament. Please differentiate between the elected European Parliament that makes the EU decisions and the EU Commissioners who are unelected and paid civil Servants of the European Union.
The last Chief Commissioner, José Manuel Durão Barroso was often misquoted by the MSM and by UK broadcasters but mostly did not actually say much of what he was quoted as having said and, in any case, much of what he said was claptrap.
He is a former Portuguese Prime Minister with a somewhat chequered past history, a career politician who was angling for the top UN post and was attempting to get Cameron’s backing by doing Cameron’s dirty work against Scotland. You will find his controversial actions here : –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Manuel_Barroso
In the end he didn’t get the UN post, (or was it NATO)?
You really shouldn’t base your opinions on what you are told by the MSM and UK broadcasters.
The EU question. So many posibilities….
Let’s imagine rUK vote by a wafer thn margin to stay IN the EU. And then just ofr fun, Scotland votes to LEAVE the EU and the vote in Scotland is big enough to overturn the rUK vote, thereby Scotland would be seen to be taking the UK out of Europe. That’s not what Cammy & Co. are saying now but you can bet that is what they will say in such a scenario. And you can ALSO bet that they will come up with some veto of the Scottish vote to keep the UK IN the EU. (I’ve learned from experience that this is how WM operates).
In such a scenario, Sturgeon would have a pefectly legitimate case to call IndyRef#2 since WM has effectively over-ridden the will of the people of Scotland (ironically by keeping us IN the EU).
Now that would be so funny.
Douglas the “European Dreamer” 3.01
“The alternative of a Germany flexing it’s muscles Putin style is a complete nightmare”.
On what are you basing your assertion that Putin is “flexing his muscles”?
The narrative run by the British Brainwashing Corporation perhaps?
Putin’s first and foremost concern is Russia, not world domination.
The EU/4th Reich already is flexing its muscles over Greece, jumping joyfully up and down on Greece’s head. Who’s next I wonder?
@ian more, 12.13
I want out of the corrupt rotten UK and I want out of the corrupt rotten EU.
So do I. When Mr Barroso was President of the EU, he described the EU as a “non-imperial” empire. The EU’s treatment of Greece (and Cypress earlier) is the way an empire treats vassal countries. It is appalling. It is not the way a social democracy would treat its citizens.
It is outrageous that TTIP is being negotiated in secret. The latest developments are chilling
http://wolfstreet.com/2015/06/09/democracy-on-hold-president-of-european-parliament-suspends-vote-on-secretive-u-s-eu-trade-pact-as-tide-turns-against-it-ttip/
http://www.alynsmith.eu/snp_reject_messy_ttip_compromise
@Proud Cybernat
“Let’s imagine rUK vote by a wafer thn margin to stay IN the EU. And then just ofr fun, Scotland votes to LEAVE the EU and the vote in Scotland is big enough to overturn the rUK vote, thereby Scotland would be seen to be taking the UK out of Europe.”
Yep. Hypothesised that here a while ago.
In which case it would be rule change number… err.. lost count.
Just like “You don’t need a referendum, every General Election is a referendum.”
Turned into “You need a referendum.”
@CameronB Brody I suppose what I mean,is it seemed good to have the European countries co operating but as usual the wrong people take charge
@wull says: 13 July, 2015 at 2:45 pm:
“Whether any of us like the EU or not, for those of who want Scotland to become independent there is one sensible way to vote in Cameron’s referendum on Europe.”
You are on the right lines, Wull, but way of on the matter of Scotland being forced to use the Euro. You cannot be forced to do so and, in any case, any country who wants to join it must wait at least three years to do so to prove their economy and currency are in line with the Euro.
Here is a fact – check it if you wish – Sweden is a founder member of the EU but has never joined the Euro in spite of her currency meeting all requirements from the start. There are more lies told to us by the MSM than just about any other subject.
Here’s another fact. If Scotland was out of the UK but in the EU our farmers and fisheries would be far better off. The EU farm subsidy is paid mainly for Scottish Hill Farms and in the EU view Scotland is classed as a peripheral Maritime Region and such regions, unlike in the UK, get more of their dues back. In fact the UK took the EU money for Scottish Hill farms and gave it to English farmers.
What they did to Greece has definitely impacted on me. I was pro Europe but not Eurozone until last night. I am now leaning towards us getting out. I am very disappointed by how they have treated the ordinary Greek people. It seems to me that many European countries – and Germany in particular – have forgotten the lessons that led to conflict after the depression of the 1920’s & 30’s. Greece needed a hand across the shoulder from the EU. Instead they were given a humiliating kicking.
My choice would be for an independent Scotland outside of the EU.
The EU in my opinion is corrupt from top to bottom and the sooner we are out of it the better. First things first though we need to get independence and get shot of those parasites in Westminster who will continue to bleed us dry.
@jcd says: 13 July, 2015 at 2:56 pm
“It’s been obvious for a number of years now that the unelected bureau/technocrats of the EU are just placepersons for the neo liberal neo con project.”
For heaven’s sake, jcd, the reason those persons are unelected is because they are NOT MEPs but are paid EU Civil Servants who have no legislative powers and no vote on anything. Their jobs are to apply the EU legislation made by the European Parliament, to advise upon EU rules and regs.
The EU stinks, they’re itching to pass TTIP, and if there isn’t total havoc on the streets of all major European cities, hopefully spreading to London, as a public response to that then we will have effectively capitulated and will deserve what we get…. which won’t be nice.
All of which has nothing to do with the EU commission and won’t have unless and until it becomes EU Law. I’d warrant few here could name the present EU chief Commissioner or think it is still Jose Barroso for the present Chief Commissioner does not spout pish like Barroso did. I’m no politician but I’m certain I could have put Barroso’s gas at a peep in no time as he overstretched his authority throughout his terms in office. The guy is a crook.
If you are going to soak up the crap the MSM and UK broadcasters push at you then you had better understand they tell lies and have their own axes to grind.
@Douglas says: 13 July, 2015 at 3:01 pm:
“The European project was a noble plan that went far beyond simple free trade. Those who founded it had seen at first hand the disaster of Europe fighting itself and wanted to make that impossible. They believed in solidarity between nations and social progress. Sadly those people are fast passing away and we are loosing that memory.”
Well said, Douglas, and I agree with you all the way. I’m far from pleased at the way the EU has been heading for quite some time now but sopping up all the propaganda the Neo-Liberals from both Europe and London’s city are propagating is not how we can bring the noble vision back to Europe.
let’s set things to rights in Scotland first, then in the UK, followed by Britain and Europe. We never can do that by other than making our own country a shining light to show the better way forward.
From The Financial Times (on msn):
https://archive.is/r3B7h
Greek PM to Greeks: We have the best deal we can get.
French PM to French: Yes, a hard deal but it’s tough love.
German PM to Germans: Relax. We have the Greeks by the balls.