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Wings Over Scotland


Idiot shortage averted

Posted on April 14, 2014 by

Readers who may have been alarmed that the Scotsman hadn’t run any Michael Kelly columns for a while can breathe a sigh of relief this morning, as the role of “clueless idiot blithely spouting inflammatory and wrong-headed drivel about sectarianism and independence” is clearly in safe hands.

celticpope

On Friday the normally-respectable International Business Times published one of the most idiotic pieces we’ve seen in quite some time, even including some of the stuff Hamish “The Red Menace” Macdonell has been punting for the Spectator of late.

Entitled “Scotland’s Dirty Little Secret: Will Independence Fire Anti-Catholic Bigotry?”, the reason it may not have been spotted before now is that most Scottish people probably stopped reading after four words, which is how long it took until author Mark Liam Piggott (apparently also employed by the Guardian, the Times and the Independent) used the term “Scottish Nationalist Party” – a highly reliable indicator that any given article is the work of someone writing about Scottish politics who doesn’t know their arse from the drummer in Elbow.

We’ll leave readers to pick out all the individual bits of stupid for themselves or we’d be here all day, though some highlights include mistaking Paul Gascoigne’s infamous playing of an imaginary flute at Ibrox for the someone miming the bagpipes, and citing the high-profile lawyer Paul McBride QC in the present tense, apparently unaware of his tragic death more than two years ago.

(Astonishingly, the article even contrives to blame “rabid Scottish nationalists” for a series of much-publicised threats made against Mr McBride and other prominent Catholic figures in Scotland in recent years, despite all evidence – and, y’know, basic common sense – suggesting that they actually came from pro-Union loyalists.)

The ugliest aspect, however, is undoubtedly the attempt to use the Clutha disaster in the service of the article’s reckless sectarian fearmongering, by calling it a “Catholic pub” and describing as “a dark aspect of Scottish society” some offensive comments that were made about the tragedy by a boneheaded woman from north Belfast, which last time we checked wasn’t actually in Scotland.

(It seems almost churlish to point out that she’s also a Unionist, and made those comments while Scotland was part of the UK, so it’s hard to see why they would back up the suggestion that independence would fire anti-Catholic bigotry. Were Scotland to be independent, events in Glasgow would no longer be any of Belfast’s business.)

But the piece isn’t Mr Piggott’s first dabble in Scottish politics. Last month he penned a column for the Huffington Post, entitled “Give Scotland back to the Scottish”, which opened with the “comic” line “Ever met a nice Scotsman? Me neither” [sic], before going on to add:

“The main reason I want Scotland to become fully independent is simple: I like simple. On forms I always say I’m English – not ‘British’ or ‘UK’ but English, the country I was born. I have nothing in common with peope [sic] born in Scotland – not even language.

Just think: no more Robbie Burns, no more Scottish football results, no Scotch eggs or weird poond-notes, and best of all: no bagpipes. Away ye go, lads, with our best wishes.”

Interestingly, over a month before the publication of the International Business Times piece, Mr Piggott (who seems not to be the sharpest of the tools in the journalism box) had posted this tweet:

piggottian

As Mr Piggott forgot to actually address the tweet to anyone specific, we can’t be sure which Ian he was trying to elicit information from, although as it happens we do know of one who’s happy to make offensive racist and sectarian comments to order in the service of the No campaign.

But it’s good to know that the catalogue of provocative idiocy in the IBT was the result of at least a month’s research, rather than just being tossed off in an afternoon for a laugh. Imagine what it would have been like otherwise.

We expect the Scotsman to announce Mr Piggott’s residency as a regular columnist alongside Brian Wilson, Michael Kelly and Brian Monteith any day now, assuming the Telegraph doesn’t get there first.

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127 to “Idiot shortage averted”

  1. Jim Mitchell says:

    So they are still willing to use the old divide and rule tactics!

  2. It seems he’s actually pro Yes, and very knowledgeable about Scotland, too (not):

    “Ever met a nice Scotsman? Me neither. I mean Armando Iannucci, Lou Macari and Wattie out of Exploited (get well soon) seem okay, though I wouldn’t want to live next door to any of them, but the rest? Buckfast-slurping, sheep-stomach-scoffing, heart-attack-having, currency-stealing cry-babies.

    “I jest, of course. I wouldn’t mind having Armando, Lou, Wattie or indeed most other Scots folk living next door. In fact – that’s what they do, isn’t it? They live next door, our slightly more emotive, less rational neighbours – except their house is a bit draughty and they keep popping in to borrow a tenner till giro-day. Or as they call it in Calton: brew day.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mark-piggott/scottish-independence_b_4991398.html

  3. Holebender says:

    The Tweet could equally as well have been aimed at a certain MP who considers himself handy with a bayonet.

  4. joe kane says:

    I see the IBT has re-edited the article to read “Scottish National Party”. Obviously, it’s another avid WOS follower.

    Just to say, the BBC2 continuity announcer on Saturday aftrenoon introduced their channel’s coverage of the SNP conference as the “Scottish Nationalist Party conference”.

  5. HandandShrimp says:

    What a strange man

    :O

  6. Peter Macbeastie says:

    Aye, same old same old. The funny thing about it is so many people now see it for what it is it barely works any more.

    Oh, you still get a few, but the more informed people become the less likely they are to fall for it. This is nothing to do with intelligence; it is entirely to do with getting the information.

    Did hear the funniest one for a while on Friday night, while getting a lift to the train station from a colleague’s husband.

    “Aye, well, it’ll all go to shit if that dictator in waiting Salmond gets his f**king way.”

    Fortunately I hadn’t had quite enough ale to have a loose tongue and was acutely aware that arguing with a sober person would not go well. Plus I’ve applied for a certain job, he knows the guy who I would be working for if succesful, and I’m not inclined to upset him with my personal political views since his missus has prodded him to put a word in. It’s an interesting choice of job; it has an element of working for the enemy about it. CND march just over a week ago helping to carry a huge ‘Vote Yes for Scotland’ banner…. application for MoD security role at Faslane put in the following day. In my defence; I am ex Navy and it’s a full time permanent job and I have been temping for five years. Temping sucks enormously.

    I don’t think the guy’s much hope for a yes voter anyway; Northern Irish with a thirty-plus year career in the MoD. I think, maybe, I’ll choose my battles a little more wisely than that. Ach, he’s a nice enough bloke, is Nigel, just a bit too much exposure to the more shrill press outlets and a background of distrusting anything that threatens the British state.

    It’s also pretty safe to say, I think, that Nigel is one of those not getting the information.

  7. tartanpigsy says:

    On phone so brief.

    That isnae me.

    Arse with my name, please do one,you have nothing to contribute

  8. CLIFF MCCABE says:

    Have either the IBT or the Scotsman given any thought to giving national coverage to councillor Terry Kelly’s Blog, this is from his most recent, I sincerely hope the help he needs can be provided.

    “Depending on individual circumstances anyone who intends to vote No or who is a known No supporter or who disagrees with the tartanshirt mob could be in danger. I would urge you to advise any of your friends who intend to vote No to take note of the following advice.

    1/ Go to the polls in daylight.
    2/ Don’t go to the polls alone.
    3/For safety sake accept their (tartanshirt) literature at the polling station but do not engage with them.
    4/ Do not show any friendliness to the No campaigners at the polling station.
    5/ Make sure that any of your friends or relations who are English or have a hint of an English accent are well protected.
    6/ Find an emergency Police phone number and take it with you when you go to vote.
    7/ Let friends etc. know when you are leaving and how long you expect to be away.

    Good luck.”

  9. Alex says:

    Here was me just thinking over the weekend how the inclusive Yes campaign is actually bringing people togeather

  10. MajorBloodnok says:

    When I think of the Pope I always imagine a much older man who knows a thing or two and is therefore capable of performing a Mexican wave correctly. I am therefore beginning to suspect that this pontiff is an imposter.

  11. joe kane says:

    The IBT has also updated the status of the late Paul McBride QC. That’s rabid sectarian cybernats for you. Insisting on decent standards of journalism. When is Salmond going to call them off and apologise?

  12. Macart says:

    Just insane.

    These people are simply insane. If you are as completely unaware of the issues as this Piggott fella, you should just stay the hell away.

  13. Graeme Purves says:

    Mark is stuck with the Scotch eggs. They were invented in England by Fortnum & Mason. Naethin ti dae wi us!

  14. The Man in the Jar says:

    Sorry about the OT.

    Look what just popped into my inbox.(Am I the first to get a reply?)

    A reply from Siobhan McMahon my Labour (list) MSP. This is to my second round of questions as proposed by Rev Stu.

    Reads like they are getting a wee bit tetchy.

    ” I believe that I have now adequately responded to your queries and have nothing further to add.”

    The full reply.

    “Dear Mr *****

    Thank you for your further e-mail.

    I would refer you to my initial response where I set out the proposals of Scottish Labour’s Devolution Commission regarding income tax. Part 5 of the report – “Creating a fairer, progressive and more accountable tax system” sets out, in detail, Scottish Labour’s approach for creating a fairer, progressive and more accountable tax system in Scotland. The full report can be read by clicking on the link below.
    http://b.3cdn.net/scotlab/c07a7cdb97a522f4c5_h1m6vwh8l.pdf

    I believe that I have now adequately responded to your queries and have nothing further to add.

    Yours sincerely

    Siobhan McMahon MSP
    Member of the Scottish Parliament for Central Scotland”

  15. Grouse Beater says:

    As I said earlier, there are some with absolutely no ambition to better their lot.

  16. Morag says:

    So the piece has been up for three days, with all these glaring inaccuracies uncorrected, but somehow they’re suddenly being corrected minutes after Wings publishes this piece?

    Why bother, anyway? You can comb the pig’s hair, but it’s still a pig.

  17. Craig P says:

    ML Piggott has thrown down the gauntlet. Could this be the article with the largest number of factual inaccuracies yet published on the topic of Scottish independence? Who can rise to the challenge of producing something even more incorrect?

    The ideal would be not just to have something wrong in every sentence, but to take it to the next level in being *internally* inconsistent too (e.g. forced to use Euro/kicked out of EU). It will probably help not to have any knowledge of Scotland and rather than engaging your critical faculties, be reliant on third hand heresay from Daily Mail readers and Paisley councillors.

    Come on political commentators – can you beat Mr Piggott?!

  18. braco says:

    Cliff McCabe,
    that is totally outrageous. Should it not be reported to the cops? An elected official spreading fear among his own constituents (and wider) by stating electoral intimidation. Surely the Police should be involved?

    This councilor is dangerous!

  19. Molly says:

    Or how about we get a written constitution , stating you should be free and able to follow any belief you choose to without fear or favour. In Scotland (although to listen to some) you would think there are only two religions, so so wrong.

    Let’s crack this once and for all, get rid of this devisive ,toxic,excuse and underpin it in a written constitution.

  20. CapnAndy. says:

    I fully agree with Jim Mitchell.
    It’s ‘Divide and Conquer’, that’s what it’s been about for years and the independence debate is showing it up for what it is.

  21. Barontorc says:

    Hi Stu, maybe Marky-baby is trying to contact me – my name’s Ian and I’d be happy to talk to him about why sectarianism will be totally expunged from an independent Scotland, that us wee ‘orrible Scots will be pulling together like never before to prove all these festering critic slap-heids wrong, that we hope to have a nice neighbourly relationship with all our chums south of our common un-manned border, that we even promise to use sterling to help their desperate fiscal cause until it makes no sense to continue shoring it up and we have to start using our own Scots Merk, that we are happy to divvy-up the assets and take a helping hand over the stoopidly monstrous debt imperiously racked up, but only if he (Marky-baby) grows up enough to have any kind of a balanced chat, otherwise, I’d be better taking tea and scones with that other old friend of Scots and Scotland, David Starkey, at his convenience.

  22. Red squirrel says:

    These clowns consistently fail to meet the enemy they want, so they have to invent one from their own twisted imaginations.

    I have never seen Scotland so engaged, so inclusive and so compellingly positive – that’s what is scaring them. Like Wylie Coyote they’ve run out of road.

  23. Giggy says:

    It was no doubt an unsolicited piece aimed at being picked-up and regurgitated by The Mail or Telegraph but this time with money involved.
    I always thought that nothing signifies more a journalist’s unemployment or unemployability than articles in the IBT and Huffington Post.
    There are a lot of Daily Mail wannabees out there fighting for attention
    and nothing gets it better than bare prejudice and racism dressed-up as journalism.
    No doubt the page views and advertising stats will look good on his c.v.

  24. call me dave says:

    Trawled through the councillors blog on Friday last. Just for fun looked at his pre election hopes and post election comments for the last two Scottish elections. 🙂

    Spreading fear he is but “Still standing though”, as he says, folk must vote for him.

    Wee Ginger Dug in good form today. 🙂

  25. Geoff Huijer says:

    Mr Piggot is obviously on a journey to show us how
    low ‘journalism’ has gone.

    Lowering the bar such that a wee cybernat could not
    squeeze under…well not without pointing out the mistakes
    and insanity.

    Real journalists of old will be birlin in their graves…or as Mr Piggot might say ‘reel jurnalists wil be boorlin in they’re grayvs’.

  26. CLIFF MCCABE says:

    braco
    That was my first thought, that it was outrageous and dangerous, but to whom could it be reported, the police? With what purpose?, the labour party? again with what purpose? perhaps we could show it to Alistair Darling and Alistair Carmichael as an example of monstering the opposition, but would they then trumpet this far and wide as evidence of fear being spread throughout Scotland by the terrifying yes campaign, because after all it has been stated by a prominent and well loved and respected labour councilor, so it must be true !!

    To be fair my second thought was that it was beyond parody how can I ever try to make a fool of Terry again, I could never prove my case as succinctly as he has.

  27. SquareHaggis says:

    Is that Piggott or Biggott, I need to find ma glessis.

  28. Drunken Hobo says:

    Roddy Macdonald – Bloody hell. How does someone get away with writing an article like that? People have been given time in jail for tweeting less offensive comments.

    At the very least you’d expect The Times/Guardian/Independent to no longer employ him.

  29. gordoz says:

    One of the benefits of an impartial media core (? Aye sure)is the razor sharp accuracy of completely made up guff.

    Scotland is slowly moving on from the ‘dragging anchor’ that is religious bigotry (Yes it still exists; but does not reflect todays vastly reduced levels of any relevance).

    Only in the minds of maverick politicians such as Galloway & Davidson and yesterdays failed politicos such as Reid, Kelly & Wilson is their seen to be any political advantage in raking over the rhetorical coals of perceived advances in religious division.

    It is a persisitant shame on all Scotland that promotion of such wreckless views are not addressed in the most vigourous sense, by all who wish to eradicate all diviciveness in our combined futures.

    Now imagine the clamour from the ‘Scottish’ & UK media if the tables were turned and a Scottish ‘source / oultet’ was to support / promote or publish such wreckless views of England & the English people, (even in some form of contrived jest).

    Kind of reminds you how the UK used to treat their new best friends in Ireland, no ?

  30. Jim T says:

    O/T

    I’ve been soliciting fliers from a few of the pro-indy campaigns and wandered into the Wealthy Nation website http://www.wealthynation.org/ where there are a lot of thought provoking articles.

    They do need a few more people to visit and add comments below the line though. They are our best bet to help get a few more Tories on side.

    Thanks for reading 🙂

  31. AllyPally says:

    @CLIFF MCCABE, “Find an emergency Police phone number and take it with you when you go to vote.” Ah, I see. These instructions are for people who find remembering the number sequence 999 a bit too demanding.

    I spent the weekend at a sports training course. A chap remarked on my Yes badge, so I offered him one. All weekend people came up to me asking if I was the lady giving out Yes badges. Many offered to pay for them. I suggested a wee donation to Yes Scotland or their local Yes group instead. And I dished out “Aye, Right” cards to all and sundry, including a No who clearly didn’t want one. The fellow beside him told him, “Take it! You have a duty to inform yourself.”

    So a successful weekend, and not just from the sporting point of view. I’ve only one badge left apart from the ones I wear.

  32. yerkitbreeks says:

    I’ve just had 7 of my delightful English rellies up here ( for the melrose 7s ) from Oxfordshire and a wonderful boozy weekend was had by all. In the course of four evening meals Inde of course came up and as expected it’s a non-issue for them.

    Anyway one topic was self effacement and laughing at ourselves ( deep fried Mars bars etc) and on enquiry my in-laws couldn’t quote an English corollary except Muslims. They are suberb at irony but can they in fact laugh at THEMSELVES, does anyone know ?

  33. AllyPally says:

    @CLIFF MCCABE, “Find an emergency Police phone number and take it with you when you go to vote.” Ah, I see. These instructions are for people who find remembering the number sequence 999 a bit too demanding.

    I spent the weekend at a sports training course. A chap remarked on my Yes badge, so I offered him one. All weekend people came up to me asking if I was the lady giving out Yes badges. Many offered to pay for them. I suggested a wee donation to Yes Scotland or their local Yes group instead. And I dished out “Aye, Right” cards to all and sundry, including a No who clearly didn’t want one. The fellow beside him told him, “Take it! You have a duty to inform yourself.”

    So a successful weekend, and not just from the sporting point of view. I’ve only one badge left apart from the ones I wear. I’ll have to get more.

    And has anyone a source of “Aye Right” business cards?

  34. galamcennalath says:

    The more they lose the arguments and support, the more they lose the plot!

    And, it will get worst before it gets better.

  35. muttley79 says:

    If an article on Scottish politics has references to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party or Braveheart, you know instantly that it is coming from a Unionist/British nationalist perspective. Consequently you know the said article is not attempting to inform or analyse the situation in a non biased or objective way.

    On another subject I just read a WoS Tweet and link to an article that poor old Stairheid Lamont has given to the Northern Echo newspaper. Talk about the gift that keeps on giving! 😀 😀 Here is a few quotations from Lamont:

    Ms Lamont urged people in the North-East not to believe “propaganda” about extra powers and riches heading to Edinburgh, saying: “We shouldn’t let people divide us.”

    Scotland has a fixed budget. Our choice is about how we spend it “I can understand people in the North-East hearing about the fantastic things going on in Scotland, but that other side of it is never spoken about.

    Scotland will not be getting more money, it will simply be accountable for raising more of its money. I hope that dispels some myths.”

  36. AllyPally says:

    Sorry for the double post, folks. Not sure what happened there.

  37. Clootie says:

    I rejected bigotry in my youth and I know the Scottish nation will work to eliminate it.
    It is as already pointed out divide and rule.

  38. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Desperate times for Naw, when they are having to play that card in such an overt concerted manner. I always thought that would be the last throw of the NO dice just before the election.

    Maybe it is.

  39. caz-m says:

    I think Terry Kelly better get off his fat ass and get out amongst his constituents, because the majority of people I know from Ferguslie Park are voting YES.

    As I have said before about poor old Terry, he is from the Scots/Irish/Celtic/Labour mentality from the 1960s/70s and he still thinks everyone in Ferguslie is stuck there with him.

    Times have moved on Terry, your bile is only listened to by a small minority of your inner circle.

  40. gordoz says:

    O/T BBC Cartoons are so funny !

    For those who missed the fine ‘impartial’ cartoon output on defence from Sunday Politics Scotland.
    License fee paid for such impartiality. Also suggests that the recent recruit of trainees for Referendum campaign came from the UK supporting side maybe ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27002723

  41. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Cannot reload comment thread and my comment has disappeared into the ether.

    I’ll leave for a bit in case it had been eaten by the Spam Monster and will be regurgitated up shortly, hopefully better than the original.

  42. Murray McCallum says:

    Wonder how much the International Business Times paid Mark Piggott to promote and celebrate his ignorance?

  43. Alex says:

    As Stu says, if this person (I’ll grant him that title, though he would not do the same for those in favour of Scotland ruling herself) cannot even get the SNP’s title correct, then his views aren’t worth seeking.

    Sadly, the people of Scotland – and I mean ALL the people living here – have endured this sneering and puerile attitude from south of the border for decades, aided and abetted by the posturing Labour Unionist Party with the likes of Brown (remember him?) Darling and Lord Haw Haw himself, Jaw Robertson.

    Let’s not allow these people to finally administer the coup de grace to our country and squabble over her corpse. Vote to change Scotland and change society – vote YES!

  44. call me dave says:

    I should know better! Just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading Mr Torrance’s article in the Herald. I keep thinking he might have something interesting and cogent to say one day but I’m always disappointed.

    Thankfully the comments section confirmed my suspicions it is another load of tosh.

    I’ll be glad to get back to work on Wednesday 🙁

  45. caz-m says:

    There is nothing the English Establishment love more than watching the Scottish illiterate scum tearing lumps out over each other over religion.

    WE played right into their trap. They can then tell the world that we are not fit to be on the world stage.

    They set this scenario up centuries ago.

    Give the Scots inadequate housing, poor schooling, poor health, poor job prospects, ad a large amount of alcohol, drugs, and finally have two opposing religions.

    They made the perfect cocktail for violence, murder and bitter in-fighting.

    And London sits back and laughs at us saying “We told you they were animals”.

    Lets get out of it.

    Vote YES.

  46. SquareHaggis says:

    Bollox!

    After spending ten minutes raking for my glaisses and a further ten reading that Cooncillor Kellys blog page, I really wished I’d accidently stood on the glaisses.

    THAT was not a pretty sight nor site.

    Makes me want to phone the Polis.

    20 minutes I’ll never get back 🙁

  47. SquareHaggis says:

    @BtP,

    Check the page is fully loaded b4 posting, if not hit the Esc key then write your message.
    Should save disappearing posts.

  48. Sue says:

    @ asupporter, cut it out, there are enough accusations of anti-englishness being directed at the Yes campaign, without idiots actually providing some evidence for it.

    I’m sick of being accused of being anti-english by association. I am English FFS. The English are jut as oppressed by the WM elite as the Scots, and do I really need to point out that not all the WM elite are themselves English ?

  49. Papadox says:

    My comment is in the wide blue yonder, GCHQ must be backed up!

  50. TJenny says:

    Just a thought, but is Terry Kelly’s list of warnings for NO voters not more likely to discourage them from turning out to vote? After all, if all the NO voters feel they are voting for is the status quo (I and you all know it’s not), might they not be put off and feel it’s not worth the bother? Hmm.

  51. goldenayr says:

    Re the Terry Kelly sub-topic.

    Instead of the cops getting told about him,how about the electoral commission?

  52. rab_the_doubter says:

    its a long time since I read such unadulterated P**h, and I’ve even been looking at the BT Facebook page. This guy seems to be challenging for the crown of Absolute Zero journalistic integrity.

  53. Desimond says:

    Slow news day?

    Why bother with such clowns, only adds to their delusions of grandeur? i did smile once mind, for a second I thought that was leigh Griffiths in the picture.

    Its 12:41 now…lets see how long before someone bites and puts up something about having no care or interst in “those football folk” or “that west of scotland problem”

  54. call me dave says:

    Mrs Lamont’s comments in Northern Echo.
    Here’s one.

    All the Westminster parties are putting together pledges of further devolution, to encourage Scottish voters to reject nationalism – often dubbed “devo max”.

    http://archive.is/KZCyk

  55. @ Gordoz

    That execrable BBC Scotland ‘animation’ to my mind comes from exactly the same mindset that produced the racist End of Empire ‘jokes’ in my youth: Of course the Scots are to wee and stupid to take on something like their own defence, so let’s just take the mickey.

    Defence? De man wid de nails am comin’ to fix it.

    http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/defence-de-man-wid-de-nails-am-comin-to.html

  56. Clootie says:

    A few examples of Westminster balance on religion.

    David Martin the first catholic speaker since the reformation.
    David Cairns an elected Labour MP who required a special Commons vote to take his seat because he had been a priest.
    The rules regarding marriage in the Royal Family and the throne.

    I want a Scotland united in it’s respect for all or no faith. I want any gap in wealth to be a reflection of hard work and effort. I want the opportunities for children to be based on ability and not ability to pay. Ill health free at the point of need etc etc.

    I truly regret the unionists have tried to play this card. I wonder how much lower they can go but even worse is that the MSM feel comfortable joining them in the gutter.

    Vote YES for a fair and equal Scotland.

  57. Clootie says:

    Sorry Michael Martin of course.

  58. goldenayr says:

    I see some are just beginning to understand my old ‘Scotsman’ moniker.
    “The British Establishment Lie and are Using the Same Tactics They Employ in NI to Destabilise Democracy and Disenfranchise the Electorate”

    Always am ahead of the times ;-]

  59. Irene Buchan says:

    I find this sectarianism very puzzling and appalling. I have lived all my life (I’m 67) in Aberdeen, Scotland and managed not to have experience of the bigotry and vileness I have witnessed lately. Where I have came into contact with it has been through football. This has been mainly through fb because certain “friends” I have on my page are football fans. So for 64 years of my life I was totally ignorant of the
    sectarianism in my country. Is the sectarianism specific to certain areas and peoples? I genuinely want to understand this. 🙁

  60. JGedd says:

    Sue,

    You are quite right. I think he/she felt provoked but we have to resist provocation which causes ill-judged retaliation.

    MEMO TO SELF: Remember who are really against us and it’s all those who want to preserve their own perceived advantage over others, at the expense of others. Nationality doesn’t really figure here – there are Scots against our ideas just there are English who are for them.

  61. Macandroid says:

    O/T BBC Cartoons are so funny

    Insultingly puerile rubbish.

    @ Sue

    I agree with you that we don’t need comments like that from ‘a supporter’

  62. sue says:

    @JGedd Thanks for your comment.

    I guess I felt a bit provoked myself. I think I am suffering from Referendum-fatigue just now. I know why it has to be a long campaign, but the nastiness of the No side is getting to me and as everyone keeps saying, we can only expect it to get worse.

    Still onwards and upwards, it will all have been worth it on 19th September.

  63. fairiefromtheearth says:

    Rev you better watch what you right about Sneddon wont be happy hes English and a yes voter hes not happy about all this English bashing sorry hes not bright enough to see their bashing themselfs fekking unionist troll 😉 your teas oot sneddon

  64. Hammett96 says:

    I am beginning to feel a bit beaten down by the constant accusations of being bigoted, anti-English, and not clever enough to understand politics from the very people who will be trying to win my vote come election time. Frankly, when your guard is down, it hurts a little.

    I don’t tend to frequent the pro ‘No’ campaign sites, but I have not seen any articles/posts from pro Yes elected officials with anything like the venom produced by Terry Kelly et al. I understand that elected officials cannot support all of their constituents all of the time, but to go out of your way to verbally attack some of the very people you stand up for disappoints me.

    Rant over

  65. David McCann says:

    @hammett96 and others.

    Dont get angry. Get even! Vote Yes.

  66. Andrew Morton says:

    @A Supporter 12:04

    Either you’re not thinking straight or you’re a BT troll.

    Lay off the anti English schtick please!

  67. Albert Herring says:

    @fairiefromtheearth

    I’m sure you’re a great patriot, but I must say you do come across more as an agent provocateur.

    Just sayin’

  68. ronnie anderson says:

    @Sue we’re awe a bit wabbit Sue but there’s nae hiding in

    wabbit hole,ok hunny bun xxx.

  69. Martin says:

    I find this story (the original, not yours Rev.- although I think you could have found a more appropriate picture to represent Catholicism) very insulting. Catholics in Scotland are more likely to be yes voters. Now is that our republican leanings, a dissatisfaction with the historic treatment in the UK since enlightenment, the quashing of our faith over centuries, or the result of a more optimistic ethos? Probably a mixture of all that and more. I know one thing though, any Catholic with even the slightest awareness of history knows what the UK thinks of us, the only religious group specifically banned from certain offices. To now try and convince us a bunch of tories will look after us better than our own brothers and sisters of all faiths and none (yes, even Catholics may have a shot at the top jobs in independent Scotland) is to be viewed with derision. An independent Scotland will be well aware of the (thankfully dwindling) Sectarianism across our central belt and I believe will be far more radical and responsible in ending it. Tensions die as equality becomes the norm. The fairer society Scotland aims for will be the death knell for religious tension.

  70. SquareHaggis says:

    Enquiry sent to the Electoral Commission regarding Cooncillor Kelly.
    Will report back as soon as I get a response.

  71. Sue says:

    Bless you, Ronnie – hero of Wings 🙂

  72. Albert Herring says:

    @Martin

    Try hovering your mouse over the picture.

  73. Barontorc says:

    Be careful guys don’t walk into the clap-trap. Sectarianism is without doubt an issue in the west and central belt and it is fostered and energised by those who gain from it. Any logical look at what’s going on shows how the manipulation works and it’s something very close to what serves as imperial Britishness, hence it’s a close fit, for whatever threatens that state. The real probability of independence does just that.

    Post 18 September the British state will be directly and terminally affected. If background plans are being laid to cope with such a change they are being with-held from prole footsoldiers, such as Councillor Kelly et al., hence their unbridled stirring of the sectarian hate-pot.

    The question is – do the real movers and shakers give a tinker’s damn for the social chaos this could bring – an issue that should be of concern to the justice dept and the police.

  74. braco says:

    Square Haggis,
    Thanks for that and will be very interested in their response. Cheers.

    Cliff McCabe,
    thanks to Square Haggis I think I will now join you in your second thoughts. The guy is beyond parody and would just be another poor soul, if he wasn’t purposefully spreading such dangerous poison! The BetterNO campaign in concentrate though I suppose. Sad, sad, sad.

  75. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ TJenny

    Incoming!

  76. SquareHaggis says:

    Here’s the email address if anyone else feels compelled.

    infoscotland[at]electoralcommission.org.uk

  77. crisiscult says:

    Parallels can be drawn with what’s going on in Ukraine. Given the right support from those further up the social or wealth ladder (actually I mean high up) and their henchmen, tribal divisions of a minority can really be put to nefarious uses and very destructive consequences. Actually, anyone interested in developing this …

    You are warmly invited to the next CEES seminar with Dr Anna Osypchuk from the National University Kyiv-Mohyla in Ukraine. Anna will host a Q&A session on current events in Ukraine. Details below. All welcome. Please note the different venue from the previous CEES seminars this semester.

    What? Everything you always wanted to know about Ukraine * but were afraid to ask When? Wednesday 23rd April 17.30 Where? Boyd Orr Building, room 709 Who? Dr Anna Osypchuk (National University, Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, Ukraine)

  78. SquareHaggis says:

    Here’s the email address in case anyone else feel compelled.

    infoscotland[at]electoralcommission[dot]org[dot]uk

    Sorry if this double posts.

  79. ronnie anderson says:

    @Martin 2.48 all people of all faiths should be insulted

    picture & thats coming from me a protestant, but being

    made by a celtic supporter all the more insulting,naming &

    shameing I think & a certain ban from celtic park, there

    is no place in Scottish Football for sectairism, I banned

    all football team strips, when training youth/kids teams

    training gear was wore own Club strips only.

  80. Craig P says:

    In an independent Scotland, will we be magnanimous enough to give British Scots and Irish Scots (or however the two groups choose to call themselves) the space to celebrate their cultures? I don’t mean blatant sectarianism, but if people decide they are more Irish or British than Scots we are going to have to live in peace with that.

  81. Martin says:

    I see about the picture. Oops! My mistake. Lord help us with that BT lot.

  82. a Supporter says:

    FFS. All you Wet Nats who have criticised my comment which was at 12.04. (Modded off my timeline). Get a fucking life. It was a joke. Chrissakes no-one criticise or make fun of the English, but it’s OK to criticise and insult me.

  83. TJenny says:

    BtP – @3.17 – Does this mean you’ll be at the Dundee WOS night?

  84. TJenny says:

    a Supporter – didn’t see your original comment perhaps, however BtP says he also lost a post about that time so it may just be the ongoing glitches on the site.

  85. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ T Jenny

    Unfortunately not, the weather has tuned for the better here.

    Have a Good Day

    Friggin big, happy face thingy.

  86. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    T Jenny , on your private-

    On your private
    e-mail address I left something for you

  87. TJenny says:

    BtP – Oh, and a big thanks for the ‘cheers’ (glass of wine pic). 🙂

  88. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Now we know?

  89. TJenny says:

    BtP – ah, crossed posts. 🙂

  90. TJenny says:

    BtP – Aye.

  91. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    if you want?

  92. Heather says:

    As someone who was raised RC, and is a Celtic supporter who is in contact with many other Celtic fans, I do know that there are many people have a real fear of a rise in sectarianism in an independent Scotland to varying degrees, and to be fair I can understand why.

    I know many Celtic supporters who have personally said that they won’t vote for independence because of the OBA (Offensive Behaviour at Football Act) which was rushed in by the SNP and is an ill-advised piece of legislation, given that the law already covers offensive behaviour and seeks only to criminalise football supporters. In fact, several judges have said it is a waste of court time and almost every single case has been thrown out. These supporters feel that this will only get worse in an independent Scotland. In my view that is extremely short sighted but they do genuinely feel scared. They also see it as very one-sided, since some fans have been arrested and jailed for singing Roll of Honour, while thousands of Rangers fans sing The Billy Boys, which is often seen televised (see the semi-final footage this weekend) are ignored by the media. They see it as one rule for them and another rule for ‘the establishment club’.

    There are also many who think that the SNP have tried to court the ‘Protestant’ or Rangers support base and don’t want to upset them because they are more numerous in Scotland, and it is why they feel that many in the MSM treat Celtic differently from Rangers because they are appealing to their biggest customer base, and sales are all that matters. It’s not necessarily that the MSM are actually pro-Rangers or pro-Protestant, it’s that they are protecting their income base.

    Whether these things are right or wrong, this is the perception at least, and they feel that at least under Westminster rule there is a sort of check and balance, no matter how slight.

    However, worringly, and I have seen this information with my own eyes, there are those within the Unionist/Loyalist movement in Northern Ireland, in conjuction with loyalists here, who are seeking to disrupt peace in an independent Scotland. They have spoken of bringing trouble to our shores. Whether this threat is real or imaginary, it is frightening nonetheless that foreigners from another country seek to destroy our democratic process with violence and intimidation.

    I will say that I only know of this fear among Celtic fans with regards to sectarianism. I don’t know of RCs who don’t follow football that fear independence due to sectarianism. I also know plenty of Celtic fans who will vote independence and have no such fears, and for George Galloway to talk about ethnic cleansing to stoke anti-independence feeling is utterly disgraceful. I, for one, will vote for independence, as I’ve been pro-independence since I could think. I do have some fears but I fear far more from a Westminster government than I do about sectarianism. Plus, I don’t think any government will tolerate a rise in sectarianism in an independent Scotland.

    @Irene Buchan

    Irene, I have lived in Aberdeen and the shire for the past 17 years but came from Port Glasgow, and I have seen plenty of sectarianism at first hand. It is mostly confined to the West Coast of Scotland but it is not unknown in Edinburgh either. People still ask what school you went to in order to determine whether you’re a Catholic or Protestant, and therefore which team you support. There was always a real fear of wearing your colours on matchday particularly post-Old Firm match, but you had to try and be sensible about it.

    Following the incident where Neil Lennon was attacked at Tynecastle by a Hearts’ fan, there was a definite fear that if a manager of Celtic FC could be attacked live on national television and the fan be released after a not proven verdict, then what hope was there for us who may be attacked but without cameras? I took down my Celtic scarf from my car, even living in Aberdeenshire, because I genuinely felt scared. Bearing in mind that this followed on from the bullets and bombs incidents where players and fans were targeted by loyalists. For the first time ever, I saw pro-Rangers anti-Celtic graffiti on the garages across from house in Aberdeenshire. I was genuinely shocked at seeing that. So, to answer your question, I’m afraid sectarianism is very real.

  93. gerry parker says:

    @Sue,
    Begging your pardon ma’am, but it’s Ronnie, Wings Saviour I seem to recall.
    😉

  94. schrodingers cat says:

    o/t
    but a todays stuc conference

    Mike Dyer – Current Chair of Anniesland constituency Labour Party & Unite member is voting #Yes

  95. schrodingers cat says:

    o/t
    england football team world cup song released
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3128202.stm

    just cruelll

  96. fergie35 says:

    Sectarianism has been encouraged by the ‘Union’. As per Heather’s post above, the only Rangers/ Celtic bigots I have met were from west central Scotland and even second generation men now living in in East Coast / Aberdeen carry the bigotry with them. Fact is I do not understand it, I didn’t grow up in an environment of hatred over religion, but the only conclusion I have is that it is sad and pathetic and if England wanted to partition a part of Scotland to save face, probably Glasgow would be their strongest supporters, but could England handle Glasgow? Doubt it!

  97. Ken500 says:

    Some people are ignorant of their own History. The majority in Ireland Catholics/Protestants wanted Home Rule. There was a strong Home Rule Movement in Ireland throughout the 19C led by a Protestant landowner, Charles Stuart Parnell.The Catholics were discriminated against by Unionists/Westminster. Lloyd George partitioned Ireland. It led to Civil War in Ireland and the death of Michael Collins. Soon demographically, Ireland could vote to be reunited. NI is an economic basket case.

    Scotland is a secular country. The majority are non religious. The Churches have privileges above the Law, the equal opportunities employment Laws etc.

    Lennon accosted McCoist in the first incident. Why can’t towns/City just have one football team. It would improve the standard of play and maybe the standards of fans.

  98. Desimond says:

    Just a quick point to consider

    Should a Scottish Constiution state in writing that ANY person, regardless of creed, colour, religious or sexual persuasion be allowed to be Leader.

    If you just thought “But such a statement shouldnt be needed”, consider how Catholics feel knowing they or any of their family would never be allowed to lead the Unifed Kingdoms. Anyone considering saying “yeah but such and such was a party leader”…was he or she Prime Minister..nope.

    It shouldnt bother me I know, but thats one promise I would like to hear stated out loud for a free Caesar!

  99. gordoz says:

    @Heather

    “I know many Celtic supporters who have personally said that they won’t vote for independence because of the OBA (Offensive Behaviour at Football Act) which was rushed in by the SNP and is an ill-advised piece of legislation”

    Well heather if thats the case then yer mates are diddies and probably biggots if yer honest.

    We need neither in an Independent Scotland.

    We’re acually looking for mature adults who wont relate life & democracy to bygone sporting guff; Rangers or Celtic.

    Sorry but thats the truth.

  100. Desimond says:

    @Ken500

    Woah Woah Woah!..Lennon accosted McCoist?…you want to check up on that full story?

    Hows about the wee whisper in the ear from McCoist followed by the cowardly hiding behind the rest of his gang. Ally has form in that department, starting it twice then retreating to watch the flames rise ever higher claiming innocence.

  101. Desimond says:

    @gordoz

    Please dont play the dismissive “daft wee footballing numpties” card. This is a fine example of when Police play Politics. I hope your social activities never involve anything that may involve Police budgets or you and your friends could be next on the harassment radar regardless of how dismissve you think that is just now.

    BTW..if an English person sings Flower of Scotland, are they anti-English bigots?

  102. Desimond says:

    @Gordoz

    Next time you’re heading off to join some Protest…think MacDonalds

    http://fansagainstcriminalisation.blogspot.co.uk/

  103. Martin says:

    Fergie35 @1704.

    I’m now veering dangerously off topic, but for clarity I should try to dispel the myth that sectarianism is a west coast issue. First hand I have encountered it far, far worse in Edinburgh, or from Edinburghers, than in Glasgow over the last 10 years, prior to that it was a fairly disgraceful rock throwing display from the regulars of Duke street’s Louden tavern, but I know better than to class any of their regulars amongst almost any other facet of civilised society.

  104. Martin says:

    “Desimond says:
    14 April, 2014 at 5:23 pm

    Just a quick point to consider

    Should a Scottish Constiution state in writing that ANY person, regardless of creed, colour, religious or sexual persuasion be allowed to be Leader.”

    Yes, it absolutely should.

  105. Ken500 says:

    Lennon also has form as a hothead. It was (lapsed?) Catholic Ministers in the Scottish gov who brought in the anti Sectarian football Laws to protect fans from bigotry.

    The espisode with the Army/Rangers was also disgraceful.

    Some Clubs will go bankrupt with a diminishing general fan base. Will that finish off the bigotry?

  106. jimnarlene says:

    FFS! The bottom of the barrel must be worn through.

  107. crisiscult says:

    There are a lot of well travelled posters here so I’m sure some will back me up on this; Scotland is not unique and not special in having bigotry. Bigotry is a product of tribalism and that is universal, and will be perpetual because some people benefit from it and because others, if I may be so bold, get their identity from being part of a group, not from being an individual. In Lebanon, you’ll hear one group say that you can tell someone is from another group because of the pronunciation of certain words and sounds, or because their eyes are closer together. Sound familiar?

  108. Kestral says:

    Terry Kelly’s

    ehh is that man a real Councillor, seriously you got to be kidding me.

    I am utterly shocked that behavior like that is accepted by his party/council/electorate

    OMG

  109. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Heather above, somewhere.

    Not in my name.

    If you want someone to stand in front of you, then I am your Panda.

    Ask Gerry P above and his brother, Jim.

    Who would ever attack a fat Panda?

    We eat, shoots and leaves.

  110. Murray McCallum says:

    Let’s not forget that Rangers and Celtic bring massive positives to Glasgow. They are great institutions.

    Football fans around the world are cruel to each other. Taking pleasure in each other’s problems is pretty standard in football (seems to me).

    I wish we could see more of Rangers and Celtic publicly working together to tackle some of the common issues they face. Maybe they do that and it doesn’t get enough publicity?

    It’s not a good outcome if fans lose faith in the legal system.

  111. geeo says:

    I have never been convinced by the use of certain aspects making a crime “aggravated”

    For me personally, it sounds more like “excuse” for the perpetrators behaviour.
    Does it make the offence “worse” ?

    Not for me, smashing, say a bottle over someone’s head is what it is, the behaviour of a thug, to say it was aggravated by the victim being a different religion/race/sexuality smacks dangerously of an excuse for the behaviour.

    Too many people are too keen to throw other factors into an offence rather than simply state the offender to be what he is.

    Media stir up a bigoted fervour at every turn for a simple reason, to sell copy.

    Simply put, say a gay man keeps pestering you and you eventually get fed up with unwanted attention despite numerous verbalisations that you are just not interested and find his actions offensive and annoying so you punch him as a last resort.

    Question is, did you punch him because he was an annoying git or because he was gay ?

    Which way would the media report your actions, regardless how you answer the above question ?

  112. gordoz says:

    Desimond :

    I checked out yer site. That’ll really move on the case for independence.

    You defend biggots if you like, I grew up a long time ago and moved on.

    Scotland has no need of any sort of religious divide, or opportunism if that’s your game your you may be on the wrong site.

  113. Tamson says:

    Sorry fergie35, but if you think Glasgow would accept Scottish partition, you really don’t understand the city. Most of us here aren’t football-obsessed bigots.

  114. rab_the_doubter says:

    Getting a bit fed up saying it but here we go again – if You want to swear and abuse people this is not the place. Why not pop over to the BT Facebook page where they seem to like that kibd of thing.

  115. Ken500 says:

    It was (lapsed? Catholic) Ministers, Kenny McAskill and Rosanna Cunningham who brought in the anti-sectarian Football Laws to protect Celtic fans from bigotry. The Celtic fans are complaining it is anti-Catholic.

    The fans are united against the Anti-sectarian Football Laws.

    Ill researched journalists.

  116. Harry says:

    Heather – excellent post but I must correct you, and sorry to harp on about football. Lennon’s attacker actually spent 4 months in prison, having been found guilty of a breach of the peace and sentenced to 8 months. He was found not proven of a “sectarian attack”, they couldn’t prove it was sectarianly motivated but he still did time for the attack.

  117. The Rough Bounds says:

    I hope this is the last time on this site that we ever have to look at a picture like that one displayed at the top of this article/posting. I am so sick of this religious crap. It is surely time to move on.

  118. eddie says:

    This Catholic fears nothing and the lies of the Unionist NO camp will not change that, bring on independence, bring it on I say.

    Being a Glaswegian lad, I have witnessed plenty of sectarianism with most of it being in the form of Orange Parades and the vile followers they attract. That they should be allowed to march through Glasgow city centre almost every weekend during summer is nothing short of ludicrous. Tradition my ass.

    Will it get worse in an independent Scotland? I believe it is fading and will continue to fall out of favour. Only the politicos can stamp it out completely and I urge them to do so.

    I have also witnessed it in my job, from being ordered to stand for the ‘national’ anthem (I refused), to being asked to leave a house when I was there to help (my Protestant workmate also left). There’s nothing as strange as (Unionist) folk.

  119. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    I lived for quite a few years in Glasgow and came across the sectarian divide which was quite strange for me as an atheist Highlander.

    Riding on the Mount Florida express on the way back from the Hamden Cup final (the one with the horses on the pitch) on my own with thousands on Rangers fans and a Celtic scarf around my waist was a very interesting experience for a naive fan. I have to thank the kind Rangers supporters who looked after me after they spotted my scarf under my jacket otherwise I may not have got off the train in one piece.

    I do remember a few discussions with some odd bampots of both sides on independence which was quite instructive. They fell into two types:
    Catholic views- whole of Scotland are rabid Presbyterians who will oppress the catholic minority.
    Protestant view – Glasgow Labour Party dominated by Catholics and SNP are in league with them to oppress loyalists.

    Fortunately, most people I met were a lot more sensible than that and I am still very fond of Glasgow and its friendly people so much so I married one!

    It will take some time to overcome this bigotry but I think it is much better than it was. Normal people just have to make a stand against it and eventually it will subside.

    Independence will help as Scotland, Ireland, and Northern Ireland will just have to sort out their problems themselves.

    After all, Scotland is just an Irish colony and Northern Ireland is just a Scottish colony. So we actually have a lot in common – if we can only just get over the religious nonsense.

  120. Morag says:

    It’s not religious. “Religion” is only a marker for ethnicity and tribe. If you don’t understand that, you totally fail to get it.

  121. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    @Morag,
    you are right I have never got it.
    I am not religious and I do not understand either tribe and I never will.

  122. Morag says:

    Most of these guys never go near a church or a chapel or whatever. They couldn’t even spell transubstantiation never mind define it. This has absolutely nothing to do with theological differences and everything to do with pure tribalism.

    In a situation where the two tribes look alike and even more or less speak alike, “religion” is the distinguishing factor. It might as well be which end they crack open their boiled eggs.

  123. geeo says:

    I have no interest in religion personally but obviously i would defend to the death the rights of others to have their beliefs.

  124. mai parks says:

    I utterly despair of these characters . The whole bt campaign really is so negative , you almost feel the need to cut your heart out with a spoon !!
    They should get better writers and material ! I’m off to get a cuppa and some St John’s Wort! 😉

  125. Kirsty says:

    I’ve experienced sectarianism throughout Scotland. I currently live in a town in the Highlands and I’ve found it there too. The most rabidly sectarian person I ever met in Scotland (it’s not just a Scottish problem by any means) was from Edinburgh. As others have said, it’s a classic divide and rule tactic. I do think that a lot of the younger generation are starting to see it for what it is and won’t have any part of it but it will take time to stamp it out entirely. But I have no doubt that we’ll get there.

    Sue:

    As someone who is half-English/half-Scots and proud of both, I’m pleased that you spoke up about anti-Englishness. However, I have to say that I find it strange how quick some English people are to leap on any perceived anti-Englishness whilst happily letting very obvious anti-Scottishness slide by without comment.

    The mainstream, English media (of all types) is heaving with anti-Scots sentiment as are their comments pages and yet I’ve never, to my embarrassment, ever seen a comment from an English person telling people on those sites to “cut it out”. If anyone complains there they’re called chippy Jocks and asked why they can’t take a joke. I haven’t seen this with the Scots who will quickly tell anyone to behave if they’re making racist comments of any sort.

    As I say, I have a foot in both camps but I am, frankly, disgusted by some of the anti-Scottish rhetoric that goes unremarked. There should be no place for racism of any sort. Therefore, perhaps, as well as taking offence about anti-Englishness, you’ll do the same with anti-Scottishness. So the next time a TV show reviles the Scots, or a politician threatens to bomb Scotland’s airports or opines that Scots aren’t genetically programmed to make decisions, or newspaper comments pages are filled with disgusting comments about the Jocks, Scotch, Haggis-munchers, Sweaties, subsidy junkies etc. etc. you’ll write telling them to cut it out too.

  126. Erchie says:

    I get dumbfounded by Celtic fans who think the Football Behaviour legislation was aimed solely at them, given that the background of it was hate fill diatribes aimed at and bullets sent to *Celtic* officials and directors

    Ill founded or not, it was to stop this kind of thing, no matter where it stems from, from happening



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