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Wings Over Scotland


Going round in circles all the time

Posted on July 05, 2016 by

We’re not naturally disposed to sympathy for Tories, but it must be hellish being poor Ruth Davidson at the moment. The poor woman doesn’t know which way she’s facing from one minute to the next. Here she is less than a year ago:

natruthsmall1

ruthblock5a

That position was duly held absolutely staunchly, right up to the point where it was reversed a few months ago before the Scottish election:

ruthblock8

2ndref

ruthblock7

Having expressly said that they’d staunchly oppose a second indyref “no matter the result of the EU referendum in June”, when the result of the EU referendum came in the Tories immediately and staunchly, er, did another U-turn.

ruthnoblock

ruthnoblock2

The Herald didn’t even bother changing the picture used by its sister paper to illustrate the last time Davidson had staunchly opposed blocking a second referendum.

We’re not massively inclined towards feeling sympathy for Scottish Tory voters either, especially those who voted explicitly out of hardcore Loyalism. But it’s never nice to be betrayed. The only crumb of comfort they have to cling to is that as sure as the sun rising and the tide coming in, Ruth “line in the sand” Davidson will reverse her stance again soon as the merry-go-round spins on.

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    1. 05 07 16 12:56

      Going round in circles all the time | speymouth

    2. 05 07 16 13:48

      Going round in circles all the time | Referendu...

    457 to “Going round in circles all the time”

    1. Camy says:

      The joy of a line in the sand is, of course, that you can stand on either side of it…

    2. defo says:

      Sympathy she doesn’t need. Brasso on the other hand…

    3. ephemeraldeception says:

      “line in the sand”.

      All their promises are made in sand.

    4. MajorBloodnok says:

      If I understood him correctly, Tomkins last night said that they would oppose a referendum but not in the courts. So, that was nice of him.

    5. Thomas Valentine says:

      So when does this Tomkins psycho challenge her for leader of Scottish Conservatives? The man lives his life in a constant desire to get people to say he’s better than them and politics is his way of trying to punish people for not agreeing with his meglomania.

    6. FatCandy says:

      A ProudScotBut.

    7. brewsed says:

      Before the tide came in King Canute may have drawn a line in the sand, but only to point out how futile the gesture was.

    8. bobajock says:

      You spin me right round Ruthie,
      Right round,
      Like a liar baby,
      Round round round.

    9. Grouse Beater says:

      Major Bloodnok: “Tomkins last night said that they would oppose a referendum but not in the courts. So, that was nice of him.

      More evidence of Tomkins the pseudo academic:

      He claims ‘we’ – the Scottish Tories – “welcome public opinion.” I’ve news for him…

      Opposing a second referendum is suppressing public opinion!

    10. I`m surprised she never stuck her name in the hat for Prime Minister of the United Kingdom,

      her star was at its zenith,

      looking at the laughable standard of entrants to the most powerful position in UK she would have been the favourite to win,

      the people of England and Wales do not know her like we do in Scotland, they only see her through the prism of the Right Wing BBC media bias,

      think she missed her one and only chance of the major prize.

    11. Big Jock says:

      Red line in Quick Sand!

    12. ScottishPsyche says:

      That campaign was a one note, one man band and now they have had to change their tune.

      How long before they change their leader?

    13. Dan Huil says:

      The britnat bbc loves Ruthie; she’s one of their own. If she was to drown every kitten in the country she would still be lauded by her bbc cronies.

    14. Robert Peffers says:

      @ephemeraldeception says: 5 July, 2016 at 11:23 am:


      “line in the sand”.

      All their promises are made in sand.”

      There is yet another use for sand, ephemeraldeception.

      You can use it in an hourglass and, for the Scottish branches of the Unionist parties, that sand in their hourglass’ is running out rather fast ATM.

    15. Irma says:

      Please let it be quicksand….

    16. She still has her “Line in the sand” but it’s easy to hop from one side to the other.

    17. Jock Scot says:

      I think Ninja Penguin captures Ruthie’s disposition rather well in YEW CHOOB’s latest ‘presentation’
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhKixMudbsY

    18. John Walsh says:

      Roofie thinks (knows) they will win a second Indyref by harnessing the ” Staunch Loyalist” vote combined with the OAP’s who are Brits by design and a bit of skulduggery as usual.
      Trident renewal will be rushed through so they can defend a paranoia state of mind . And with WM already pulling out the “big guns” before Nicola has even fired the starting gun, they want to squash indyref2 before it even starts. WM don’t have the civil servants to fight two fronts the EU and Scotland at the same time. And so Ruth et al will get maximum propaganda for 2 years so strap in it’s going to get bumpy.

    19. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Scot Finlayson suggests Buffalo Gal might have been in with a shout as Tory leader. He also argues she is better than any of the current field to replace Posh Cameron.

      Pardon me for taking an opposite view Scot, but, while the Tank Commander might be seen as a big bruiser in Holyrood, she’s a pussy cat compared to real beasts such as Mesdames May and Leadsom – that is one pair of evil Ugly Sisters.

      By the way, which one between May and Leadsom is Patti Bouvier, and which one is Selma?

      As a sports writer, I have, over many years watched highly-rated Scottish football stars go south to greater fame and fortune, only to crash and burn. The solitary Scottish star who has gone south at the peak of his powers and done well in the past 40-years is Kenny Dalglish, and Ruthie is no Kenny, despite her maybes aye – maybes naw to a second referendum.

    20. heedtracker says:

      Schrodinger’s tory.

    21. Breeks says:

      The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.
      The turret on the tank goes round and round, all day long.

    22. Edward Andrews says:

      I think that we are being a wee bit beastly about “Line in the Sand” Ruthie. There is a difference between opposing and blocking. The Tories oppose a second Referendum (why are Unionists so scared of Referenda?

      However they realise that by getting their mates in Westminster to jam it that they would cause themselves endless problems when we get independence. After the Union jack departs there will be a need to fuck up the Scottish Working Class in a way that only the Tories can do, and to speak out for the Landlords so that we actually do pay them some compensation rather than merely reward the ones we catch with 9 grams.

      So laugh not (at least not publicly) at the antics of people who are desperately trying to get people in Scotland to support.

    23. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Scot Finlayson,

      Buffalo Gal is weathervaning like fury, which must be very confusing for her admiring fans, but she is nevertheless not stupid.

      Being next PM of the UK is a poisoned chalice. Having to preside over the whole canning factory of worms that is Brexit, including our own little sideshow, without even having a “Plan A”? You have to be certifiable or seriously deluded to actually want to do the job.

    24. Stormchase says:

      Why the surprise – in out in out shake it all about do the hokey kokey and they spin around – that’s what a Tory is all about.

    25. Jim says:

      Is there a place for them in Scottish politics in the event of Scotland regaining it’s independence?

      Should the likes of Rennie, Dugdale, Davidson, et al stand by their miniscule principals and retire from politics as they have absolutely no belief in or want of an Independent Scotland and could not therefore continue as if nothing had changed.

    26. McDuff says:

      I just wish the SNP would use this info against Davidson when indy 2 is raised during debate as it would completely destroy her credibility.

    27. Ruth Davidson is a Thatcherite Tory, unlike Kezia Dugdale, who is a Blairite Tory. In other words they are twa fleas aff the same putrid dug.
      They are both arch Unionists who believe that Scotland is part of, and therefore subservient to, England.
      They are both proponents of the Red Blue and Yellow Austerity package, deprive the Hoi Polloi, reward the rich, make our poorest pay for the excesses of the Money Men, and slowly starve them into submission.
      We continue to have mounting levels of poverty whether in work or out, and zero hours contracts , pay day loans at 1000’s % interest, food banks, pawn brokers, charity shops, privatised Health, Academy Schools, the HoL, and the dominance of the SE of England over Scots,and it is perfectly fine with both of them, as well as Wee Willie Rennie and his handful of limp wrist chancers.
      In short, there is still a Better Together Alliance. A common bond, subjugate their fellow Scots, a nasty cancer which welds them together.
      The Union no matter the cost in health, jobs, our European citizenship, is greater to this wee sad bunch of Branch Unionists: destroying Scotland at any cost , trumps all.
      WE are disposable, of less importance than the grouse on Cameron’s new country pile.
      They don’t need to kill us with guns and consume us.
      WE are dying at a rate of 5000 more a year than Manchester and Liverpool,because of 50 years of Unionist political vindictiveness.
      Tom Harris actually fuckin’ threatened us with England cutting off trade if we go Independence. Who the fuck is Tom Harris? A proud Scot who threatens his fellow countrymen and women if we exercise our democratic right to self determination. Some people would describe this as the behaviour of a ("Quizmaster" - Ed). Count me in their number.
      No more Mr Nice Guy.
      Tom Harris is a political Failure, yet he threatens me and mine with an aggressive vengeful England.He is a coward as well as a failure.
      England is not going to cease trading with an independent Scotland, you dumb fuckwit. You know that of course, but what do you care. You are |Blair’s man; made your pile, did you?

      Likewise, Ruth, Kezia and Willie.
      Threaten us with the vengeance of your bully Southern bosses, proud fellow Scots.
      Scum politics this early illustrates how frightened Adam Two Jobs, and the Unionist Ranks are.
      Bring it fuckin’ on !

    28. Martin Richmond says:

      “Oppose” and “block” are not the same thing Stuart. I know you know that of course; you were probably too busy working up a piece on the child abuse enquiry to make a better job of this.

    29. Bob Mack says:

      Ruthie —–Aka (Ensis Artuasis) .The common razor shell which emerges from the sand to feed and quickly disappears back into it when threatened.

      Is this the type of leadership so vaunted by Tories,that this country requires today? I think not. Marc Carney has this morning indicated that the UK is in for a very tough time indeed.We had better listen.

    30. Robert Graham says:

      tomkins i am superior to everyone last night gave an insight of what it means to be a tory he seamlessly morphed from a supporter of stay in the eu to talking up the benefits of leaving he quoted the fishermen he either dosnt know or chose to omit that it was the tories who sacrificed the fishing grounds to gain benefits in other areas , Fiona Hislop should have reminded the audience that scottish ministers have to sit in the corridor while an English lord does the deal to our fishermen’s benefit no doubt.

    31. Portjim says:

      Fat candy, 11:26 – should there not be 2 t’s at the end of ProudScotBut? An arse who says he is a proud Scot = ProudScotButt.

    32. stonefree says:

      I have nothing but contempt for Davidson

    33. Dr Jim says:

      Line in the sand

      Tide’s coming in

    34. Artyhetty says:

      You can’t have a referendum, you can have a referendum. It’s your choice, no we tell you what to do. Pathetic. Ruthie is instructed what to pap to spout, she must be very dizzy, but I for one do not feel one teensy bit of sorry for her. She takes orders, even if it makes her seem really daft. She gets paid very generously for it.

      The recent one about not stopping us having another indy ref, reverse psychology. They got wind of a lot of previous no voters who voted remain. They want in the EU and will vote yes to secure that. Establishment are running scared, even more than usual, desperate times.

    35. Valerie says:

      Anyone noticed the new Tory warcry, regardless of country or audience? Tompkins roared it last night:-

      WE ARE ALL BREXITEERS NOW!!

      I channel hop around the news most days, and I think I heard it from various Tories, about 8 times yesterday.

      Let the brainwashing begin! Rid me of these outward looking notions, oh Borg leaders.

      Tompkins also responded to a poor audience member complaining about lack of information about the EU referendum implications, with a haughty:-

      ‘The information WAS out there if you looked for it. It was there in The FT’

      And this guy was allegedly in the Remain camp?

      So peasants, stop dicking about, eat your cereal, get back in your box, buy the FT if you HAVE to have information.

    36. DerekM says:

      So is this the conservative party speaking or the Ruth nothing to do with English tories honest guv Scotland branch party.

      When i see a tory u turn i think what angle are they trying to play and the only thing i can think off is that they want us to rush in unprepared for indyref2.

      It will not have escaped tory think tanks that the longer they wait the less chance they have of winning and keeping Scotland in UK bondage.

    37. K1 says:

      If they can’t block it what’s the point in opposing it? Empty threats and rhetoric, the point is she has no credible position.

      I know you know that of course: you were probably too busy being smug and clever to bother understanding the nuance of the article before hurriedly posting yer wee snide comment. 😉

    38. Willie R. MSP says:

      Did someone say Merry Go Round?!

    39. Capella says:

      Ruth and her Davidsonian battalions in Holyrood have lost every vote so far and will do so again when the Referendum 2 vote comes along. She knows that. But perhaps she has a plan B?

      I was searching for info on her legal eagle Prof Adam Tomkins. His wikipedia entry is cleaned up to remove all mention of his English upbringing and education. I wonder why?
      You have to go to Calton Jock’s posts to get some background.
      http://tinyurl.com/zlhby4b

      Expect whinging about the legal status of any Holyrood Referendum. Tomkins has argued long and loud that Holyrood has no authority to conduct a Referendum which allows constitutional change.

      LPW had an extensive post about Prof Tomski and his “unionist stooge” status in 2011:
      http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/adam-tomkins-unionist-stooge.html

      Ruth is probably playing good cop with the Prof in the background ready to play bad cop. It is only 2 months since the Holyrood election. Feels like a lifetime already.

    40. scunner says:

      Shocked to hear (not really!) that the firm stance prior to the ScotParl elections was just a cynical ploy to coalesce the hardcore Unionist vote.

      Ruthie’s pants constantly ablaze.

    41. Artyhetty says:

      OKay. When I post a comment, I get a message saying ‘you are posting comments too quickly, slow down’. Er I haven’t posted a comment previous to said message.

      Here it is again.

      You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down. Grrrr.

    42. Dan Huil says:

      britnat hypocrisy is there for all to see. Only if you don’t watch the bbc.

    43. Valerie says:

      Troll klaxon! 12.02

      Don’t go near it, don’t feed it, please!!!

      Let’s stick to exposing Tories, that will enrage it.

    44. galamcennalath says:

      This is the biggest crisis since Germany invaded Poland.

      Where does the Ruth ‘We are not really Tory’ Davidson Party stand?

      Scotland is on a different path from England. In the Geneal Election just over half of English votes were for the hard right parties of Con & UKIP. Just how far tight, we now see. England Leave, Scotland Remain in EURef.

      In these troubled times Scots blame the UKOK Union, while England blames the EU xenophobically.

      Scotland is Centre Left, England is hard right, verging on Fascism.

      When negotiations between the UK and EU make clear that Scotland, as a region of Greater England, will get no special deals via WM … IndyRef2 will follow.

      Who will stand by Scotland? SNP and Greens, of course. LibDems, probably. Labour, maybe, or at least be neutral. And, that leaves Ruth Davidson and her Loyalists.

      What will Ruth Davidson do then? Will we finally see someone from the Right actually putting Scotland first? Probably not. However, I can see their heart not being in a second fight for their Union.

    45. Sledger says:

      These are two very different things which are not contradictory.

      She opposes a second referendum and against it at Holyrood, but still support the mandate of the Scottish Parliament to hold one if defeated.

      Afterall she’s not come out and said she wants a second referendum has she?

    46. Onwards says:

      Make no mistake, the Wembley EU debate was Ruth’s job application for PM. Despite all her denials, she would have stood down from Holyrood at the first opportunity.

      But far from being the saviour of the Stay campaign, many English voters took the opinion: “Who is this shouty jock telling us what to do?”

    47. heedtracker says:

      I can hear BBC Politics show giving Farage a lovely toryboy send off, “he’s out on high!” says the swivel eyed loony guest.

      The fact their The Vow turned into an historic jaw dropping shyste on Scotland, is not mentioned directly here by my Slovene girlfriend but he’s thinking about with Brexit back in May, when she thought it wouldn’t happen

      https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/

      Jump in anywhere to toryboy intelligentsia waffle.

      “South of the border, where the EU referendum is a much bigger political story than it is in Scotland,”

      What an arse.

    48. Macart says:

      There’s one more twist yet to occur and I’m looking forward to it. The preparatory legislation is being drafted for indyref2 as we sit here. If, as expected, it is required to ensure continued EU membership and goes to Holyrood chamber for debate, then I’m waiting on Ruthie’s passionate defence of the result of the EU referendum and continuation of UK political union. How she squares that circle, whilst attempting to explain just why defaulting on a pillar of BTs campaign from Scotland’s first indyref is OK and shouldn’t incur any consequences should prove entertaining.

      I’d also like to see her, in that instance, stand in front of our voters who are also EU nationals and explain her reasoning. Tell them why their future is uncertain and that their place now in society is as a bargaining chip in EU negotiations against UK expats and trade agreements, not as human beings with rights.

      As for Mr Tomkins? You don’t suppose he’s grumped at not being invited to join the advisory group do you? 😉

    49. Valerie says:

      @Jack Collatin

      Spot on. I don’t honestly think people have any idea what is coming down the tracks. I predict increased deaths.

      More austerity, increased social pressures, increased mental health issues, reduced NHS provision, skills flight. Increased crime rates, reduced police numbers, increased surveillance.

      Cutting corporation tax, a race to the bottom, more money for the rich.

      Lord Lawson in the HoL, just now, Brexit a tribute to the bravery of the British people. We must move now, to finish Thatchers dream.

      Anyone out there not scared? A lot of this will simmer and explode down south, but as a neighbour, we will be infected. Anyone think the Loyalist movement a short ferry trip across the water might be planning a few trips?

    50. Auld Rock says:

      As we used to say on Clydeside when we still had heavy engineering and shipbuilding industries, “Ruthie disnae ken wither her airse is ‘punched’ ‘bored’ or ‘coonter-sunk’. i’ll say nno more.

      Auld Rock

    51. Kevin Evans says:

      I want the SNP to start fighting hard now.

      I was cool with the laid back reasonable approach during indyref and since but now it’s getting beyond a joke. The SNP need to start fielding panellists now like hosie who wasn’t scared to do a bit of gritting of the teeth and getting down to dirty politics.

      I love a lot of the SNP msp’s and mp’s but the likes of Tasmania doesn’t cut the mustard in the new political landscape that’s needed. Angus Robertson is a great example who remains logical and staunch and comes across as reasonable but when he needs to he can rip into the bullshit spurted by unionist MP/msp’s and the media and still maintain a level head.

      I still don’t think people even realise what’s coming due to this EU membership lose.

      Civil liberties and rights being removed and with the choices of new PM everyone of them are right wing to the core. The Barnett is going to be crushed to mitigate the financial hell that is going to befall the UK and with the tories we’ll known for the preference and voters mainly in the south east the remaining crumbs of cash will be invested there with more vigorous spending to try and keep the economy buoyant as it continues to crash.

      They flash up FTSE 100 figures to try and say “look it’s all ok” while ignoring the closer to home impact as the FTSE 250 and £ against the $/€ keeps dipping.

      I guess am saying am getting tired of allowing these unionist and media to get free reign to propagate there agenda while the goverment and representinves I voted for (SNP both votes/SNP Westminster) sit playing like this is a game where people follow the rules. They need to wake up and start matching there opponents on the field they have created.

      Enough is enough.

    52. cearc says:

      Valerie,

      In all fairness, he was right, it was all in the FT and all the international financial press. Just didn’t get as far as the BBC!

      I think all the information we need to use to counter anti-EU nonsense from brexit in our forthcoming Indyref2 can be found here.

      https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/

      It really is excellent, just a shame it has been so low-profile. Keep posting the link everywhere!

    53. TJenny says:

      Artyhetty– the message you’re getting is from one of the sites ‘tronic elves who’s upgrading the server, He was on Stu’s tl last night saying how quickly the comments were appearing and asking Stuey when the comments slow down. Stu replied that there’s usually a lull between 3.30am and 4 am. 🙂

    54. heedtracker says:

      My Slovene girlfriend says the Law could have stopped a YES win 2014 Scotland, and can block Brexit too. Up pops another one, fear is the key. Frankly

      https://archive.is/EE2kc

      Alistair Darling: Second independence referendum could be Nicola Sturgeon’s ‘epitaph’

      If only Sturgeon had the Flipper’s abilities.

    55. cearc says:

      Never mind which side of the line in the sand she’s on.

      She’s on the wrong side of history and she knows it.

      It’s all gone. Cameron’s pet, popped onto the top of the list, shoe-horned into leadership, beating labour. The peak was putting Boris down on tv. (How pleased Cammers must have been with her). The sky was the limit and then…

    56. G says:

      To be fair, my understanding is that they will vote against it in the Scottish Parliament, but in the event that it has majority support in Holyrood (which it will), then they are clear that Westminster should not block it.

      Historically, Westminster has always respected the right of the Scottish people to determine their future, so it would a fairly major about-turn if Gove or anyone else was to suddenly start denying that right. The union is supposed to be by consent.

    57. Ken500 says:

      Ruth Davidon is a liar. She should resign. The Tories have ruined the economy.

      Thr Tories have no mandate. The only solution to the catastrophic, illegal EU Ref result is to have a UK General Election, in which the Tories will lose a majority and the SNP will hold balance of power. The SNP are the only credible political Party in the British Isles. To try and correct the damage that has been done by the Unionists in Westminster.

      The Tories will be wishing they did not win the GE. The Tories did not win the GE. They got a 12 seats majority. They committed electoral fraud in 29 seats. The election result is criminally flawed and not legitimate. Electoral fraud is punished by prison. It is supposed to investigated, People charged and put in prison. They are not allowed to hold political positions. By-elections should be called. Why had this not be investigated. Political Parties breakng the Law.

      The outcome of the GE should have been a hung Parliament with SNP holding the balance of power. Then none of this would have happened. The SNP are the only credible Political Party in the British Isles. Cameron the architect of the chaos has purchased a Scottish Estate with tax evaded public money he embezzled by ruining the economy. Cameron should be put in prison for fraud, murdering vulnerable people and breaking the Ministerial Code.

    58. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heed,
      I can just imagine Lord Dorkling of Gloomndoom being a real asset to BT2. =grin=

    59. cearc says:

      The £ slid to a record post-ref low this morning.

      Gilt auction clocked record low yields. “Gilt yields are now fully priced for a deep recession” – FT.

    60. heedtracker says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      5 July, 2016 at 1:02 pm
      heed,
      I can just imagine Lord Dorkling of Gloomndoom being a real asset to BT2. =grin=

      Blue tories discuss mass deportations from teamGB, BBC creeps normalise it all, red tories say, Ed Milliband stuck out, ooh that’s so terrible. Can anyone remember that goon’s Vote Lab mugs with “we hate johnny foreigner as much you do,” stuck on it?

      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/labours-anti-immigrant-mug-worst-part-it-isnt-gaffe

      Cant imagine Remain Scotland’s not watching the red and blue tory freak show swill into their own sewer.

    61. cearc says:

      Given the speed at which the ‘transitional holding pen’ idea was mooted after the out result, does anybody else think that this is a fully planned arrangement set up before Indyref1?

    62. Sam says:

      A fairly misleading article. It seems clear and consistent to me – the Scottish Conservatives will vote against holding a referendum, but don’t think that the UK government should block it if the Scottish Parliament decides to hold one.

    63. schrodingers cat says:

      scottories still prevaricating about the bush

      uk or eu…. no answer

      oppose indyref2 but wont block it, thats promising, when it comes they will have no choice but to answer the question

      still doesnt confirm that tories of westminster variety wont block indyref2 in the courts

    64. Mike Lothian says:

      Maybe Ruth realises that she’s got a greater chance of being First Minister if she was head of an independent Conservative Party in an independant Scotland

    65. bugger (le Panda) says:

      Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
      Never ending or beginning on an ever-spinning reel
      Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon
      Like a carousel that’s turning running rings around the moon
      Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes on its face
      And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
      Like the circles that she finds in the windmills of her mind

      1 verse of The Windmills of your Minf=d

      Written by Alan Bergman, Michel Jean Legrand,

    66. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      5 July, 2016 at 1:14 pm
      “scottories still prevaricating about the bush”

      Ruthie likes the bush

    67. Liz Rannoch says:

      Could it be? No, not in Holyrood – an outbreak of Kezieatitus. Symptoms include: Short attention span, No sense of direction and Inability to stick with a decision. Sufferers may show signs of lying or confusion and general flip flopping.

      O/T kinda.
      As usual, by the time I’ve read, linked, decided, typed and submitted – everybody has moved on. Posted this on last thread – will try again.

      @ Liz G 11.28

      “We should Infact act like a sovereign and limited ourselves to advise and caution but stay the hell out of their politics.”
      I agree. I’m already sick of hearing about all the leaders who have run away, what a mess. Couldn’t give a rat’s nether regions who gets what, although the Rev’s piece did cheer me up last night!

      I think this is what Nicola’s doing already and we should believe also.
      I asked on here (before the EU ref?) if SNP MPs should start referring to ‘THESE United Kingdoms’ when in WM. Can you imagine if EBC had to show a piece from say, PMQs with that in it? It may not be ‘noticed’ right away, but I’m sure we’d find some way of highlighting it. lol.

    68. Les Wilson says:

      As far as Ruth the Mooth is concerned reasons, for her about turns are likely this
      “Ruth, this is London calling………”

      Tompkins, he hates to be made unimportant, let us do that then.

    69. shug says:

      Just heard on the BBC Tony Blair will not be impeached as parliament is much to busy dealing with Brexit

      Getting the excuse in early and delivered by our own state broadcaster

    70. Ken500 says:

      Davidson is trying to con people. There is no way the Tories can support Independence. They are a UK Party. Financed and funded by them. There is no support for another IndyRef2 in their Manifesto or support for Independence or powers for Scotland. The promises made, the VOW were broken. Cameron is a liar and broke every promise.

      May Thatcher is totally useless, along with the rest of the Tories. Despicable people. Never trust a Tory politician, especially in Scotland. Self centred, greedy people who only care about themselves and abusing public money. Criminal activity. Abusing children and killing people, committing fraud, tax evasion and electoral,fraud. Hiding their crimes and controlling the Press illegally under the Official Secrets Act.

      BoE are now printing more money putting up the debt. With more austerityand sanctioning and killing more vulnerable people. Wasting public money on useless carbuncles, grotesque projects and tax evasion, but cutting funding for essential services. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. The devastation of the EU Ref and abuse of taxpayers money.

      The Tory/Unionist politicans are self seeking liars. A small pool of members and people of credibility. Useless dangerous troughers. Criminal activity,

    71. Marie Clark says:

      Awe Rev, I’m really, really sorry. I’m an abject failure, BUT, I jist cannae feel oany sympathy fur Ruth the mooth. I detest tories, no matter what shade they are.

    72. bri says:

      Postal vote sampler. Did she ever get prosicuted for that, should have voided the 2014 referendum that should have…..

    73. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Considering some of the things Ruth has been on/up/over in her rise to fame, straddling a line in the sand is nae borra.

    74. Shamur says:

      Jack Collatin, I wholeheartedly agree. We need more with your passion and honesty.

    75. The Isolator says:

      @Kevin Evans 12.38pm

      Get what your saying there but and it’s a big but ,what if the SNP deliberately set put to play the underdog in the media especially with the BBC.I recall in the not too distant past the SNP couldn’t buy airtime.We were irrelevant on the political spectrum.

      The media like to think they are playing with idiots here but of course they’re not.

      This is a long game and takes me back to being a 10 year old darting about the “scheme” selling SNP tickets and delivering newsletters in amongst the enemy ( labour).

      A wise old boy named “Broonie” always spoke of the long game and it being a Marathon no a sprint.Slowly slowly catchy monkey he’d say.”One day son one day”.That was in 1968.

    76. Bob Mack says:

      O/t,

      I see from Rev’s twitter feed that the press association have just announced A viva have suspended their 1.8 billion property fund in the UK as investors are pulling out. This is in addition to Standard Life doing the same a few days ago

      A sure sign of imminent recession.

    77. Willie John says:

      schrodingers cat says: 5 July, 2016 at 1:05 pm

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/10-000-more-flags-for-yes#/

      Just tried to donate, but got told ‘Country cannot be blank’ when I input Scotland.

    78. heedtracker says:

      My Slovene girlfriend says read this, or else

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/20160701IPR34467/EU-must-do-more-to-meet-citizens'-concerns-urge-MEPs-in-debate-on-Brexit-summit

      Paul NUTTALL (EFDD, UK) said that the EU and the UK should conduct talks “in a grown-up manner”, to get the best deal for everyone and to become good trading partners. Otherwise, also French farmers and German carmakers would suffer, he pointed out, referring to the UK’s current trade deficit with EU.

      Marine LE PEN (ENF, FR) also called for a fair trade deal and accused the “Europeanists” of not respecting the people’s will. Rather than more integration, the peoples want their sovereignty and to cooperate freely, she said, urging the EU to “change or vanish.”

      Adam’s cut n pasted some of it onto his Graun EUOK btl ranting but oddly enough, she left out the above. UKOK funny that.

    79. Greannach says:

      Has Tanktop had her little tank painted orange yet?

    80. schrodingers cat says:

      @btp…..meow 🙂

      K1 says:
      If they can’t block it what’s the point in opposing it?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

    81. Liz g says:

      Liz Rannoch @ 1.23
      Did see and reply to your post on the other thread

    82. schrodingers cat says:

      willie john

      would it were otherwise, change is coming yet, for a’ that, its just that we are not there yet. keep the faith and thanks for your contribution

      i’m just aff tae kill masel’ now ….

    83. Almannysbunnet says:

      Ruth straddles the line in the sand. Then the tide comes in, she makes a new one and just in case, she straddles that one too. It’s a bit like abstaining.

    84. Thepnr says:

      Babe Ruth swings wildly at the ball and misses. Strike 1 UK out of the EU.

      Babe Ruth swings wildly at the ball and misses again. Strike 2 Scotland out of the UK.

      Babe Ruth swings wildly at the ball and misses for the last time. Strike 3 Babe Ruth is out of Scotland and heading for the lower leagues.

    85. Robert Graham says:

      Oh dear oh dear the French are Not playing ball about border control at Calais how upsetting oh dear how sad never mind I am sure they have a plan, all they need now is is for their northern outpost to start pissn about by not implementing government policy in their Scottish region a start being refusing to deport the Brain family, what are you going to do about that Theresa ? Send in Ruthless best of luck with that dear, the only way they can rule in Scotland is by us cooperating mm thinking about that one don’t worry we will get back to you sometime

    86. X_Sticks says:

      So, would this sand Roofie has drawn her line in be the same sand that their United Kingdom castle is built of?

      “And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually” as Mr Hendrix once said.

    87. Macart says:

      OFFS!

      Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind unguarded discussion on live mic Sky News. What the tories really think of the EU vote (whys and wherefores), the economic situation and individual characters.

      Car crash! Were I an English/Welsh voter I’d be feeling a tad grumpy at HMG about now and if I were a leave voter I’d be running about screaming.

      If the situation weren’t so desperate for so many people, it’s made for comedy farce gold. 😮

    88. David Mills says:

      Ruthie appear rudderless with out the Westminster machine to give her direction the malaze the has sweep Labour and Tories in Westminster appear transmissible throught party so
      As HMS UK drift to thickest and sunset on Empire and two crew can be seen sitting around open fires on deck

      Thier sister branch in Scotland appear paralysed if not intent to make sympathy pires of themself

      There must be cause for all this smoke send fire a long long awaited report? Electoral expenses activities? If it not something like this the Westminster “main” party appear to be totally abdication responsibly.

    89. crazycat says:

      @ Willie John

      I also experienced that – Indiegogo is an American crowdfunding site – I had to grit my teeth and put “United Kingdom”. From what I remember, it doesn’t accept “UK” either; you have to spell it out.

      That will change, when we are independent.

    90. ScottishPsyche says:

      Just seen Ken Clarke, looking completely sozzled, sharing his candid views with Malkie Rifkind on Sky while getting his microphone fitted.

      http://news.sky.com/story/1721982/watch-ken-clarke-ridicules-tory-candidates

    91. Not Convinced says:

      I’m wondering if Ruth has “done the math” as the saying goes? Ponder her political future, she’s got no real chance of becoming leader of the Conservative Party at any point in the near-ish future because she’s pro-EU so she’s not going to get to be Prime Minister (or at least, get the consolation prize of “Leader of her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition”). But what if Scotland becomes independent? Re-brand the party, tweak the policies a bit and First Minister isn’t entirely out of the question. She’s got no chance of the role in a United Kingdom, because she’ll just get blamed for what the Tories do in Westminster, but if we’re independent then the situation changes.

      But of course she can’t opening start arguing in favour of Independence, she’d hemorrhage support from all those ultra-unionists she picked up earlier in the year. She can however explain her current position to them them – give them a second indyref as the situation *has* radically changed, they’ll lose again and then the question will go away for decades and the SNP will be crushed. She then campaigns in a carefully planned lacklustre way. If “No” wins again she claims all the credit, if “Yes” wins she “accepts the result with grace”, waits for the SNP to splinter (as it inevitably would) and hopes to pick up votes/members from the centre-right side of the SNP.

    92. Robert Graham says:

      teachers strike in england.
      junior doctors reject new contract in england .
      migrants in Calais heading for england.
      oh dear the tories are playing a blinder dopes led by idiots and they still think they were born to lead the only thing they are good at is talking PISH in a very cultured and refined way aye right now f/k off we are sick to the back teeth of your lot .

    93. Robert Graham says:

      Teachers strike in england.
      Junior doctors reject new contract in england .
      Migrants in Calais now heading for england.
      oh dear the tories are playing a blinder dopes led by idiots and they still think they were born to lead the only thing they are good at is talking PISH in a very cultured and refined way aye right now f/k off we are sick to the back teeth of your lot .

    94. Legerwood says:

      This is a link to a short article in the New Scientist about Twitter bots and how they might swing an election/referendum.

      It uses the Brexit referendum as an example and analysis of the Twitter traffic within a specific time period of the campaign. Apparently most of the stuff was automated tweets or replies and Brexit seemed to lead over Remain in generating such material.

      Strongly recommend you read it because it has obvious implications for next insured or indeed any future election

      https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130803-000-beware-the-election-bots-the-twitter-spam-out-to-swing-your-vote/

    95. Bob Mack says:

      O/t,

      Junior Doctors impose fresh pressure by rejecting improved contract . The pressure turns up another notch in England.

    96. Politics is politics. Let’s be generous for a while and give Ruthie the benefit of the doubt.
      I know personally several huge advocates for independence who were just as articulate for the opposite till the epiphany and they suddenly realised they were talking shite and were honest enough to cross the floor.
      No cause is a lost cause (are you listening Kezia?) and we will get to independence a lot quicker if we make it obvious that our door is open.

    97. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Liz G 2.02

      Thank you. Think that’s just his ‘default’ face!

      O/T
      If anybody’s interested:

      Yes Dunfermline seem to be starting up again. Not much on the FB site since April? 2015. As I don’t do FB take it that 5 July (no year) means tonight? Anyway 7.45 for 8 at the Wood Mill, Lynburn Rd. Dunfy. I’m going to try to make it.

    98. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ me 2.25

      Duh silly me read the damn thing. 2016 it is.

    99. Mick DIAMOND says:

      Jack collatin 12.01 great post these “proudscotbuts” who would subjugate their own countrymen and women are a disease in our midst, and an anchor around our necks.

    100. cearc says:

      Gallows humour from the City of London,

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmmhMFBW8AA3H0A.jpg
      ‘Difficult to see the pound forming the Dying Elephant pattern as good news’

      £ down to $1.3057.

    101. Bill Halliday says:

      Ca’ canny there. This sounds like another Tory/Dodgy Davidson Master stroke to kill Independence for ever. What she really means is “Let them have a Referendum when we know they will lose” whilst we make the Polls and the Media say they will win.

    102. galamcennalath says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      “Politics is politics. Let’s be generous for a while and give Ruthie the benefit of the doubt. …. No cause is a lost cause (are you listening Kezia?) ”

      Politicians enjoy their chosen careers, for the most part. If Indy looks likely, then those who opposite know they are unlikely to have a job when it happens. This is different from Indyref1 because this time the Union is much less defensible. Anyone defending staying in the UK with the unfolding events is definitely very hard core BritNat.

      Also, no Scottish politician will have a future in England.

      Right now, they posture. They stick with their UKOK party lines. When IndyRef2 happens, they will want to think long and hard about where they stand. Do the ‘cross over’? Some may take a neutral stand, keep their heads down, and say they will go with what the electorate decide.

      My hope is key Unionists will ‘cross over’. Ruthie? You never know? My best guess, no, she will go down fighting for her Union.

    103. Valerie says:

      @Macart

      Just saw that Sky thing OMG!!! I heard it first, and thought it was a skit. Then watching, it was clear they had no clue they were being recorded.

      Mega scary though.

      Clarke looked as if he had enjoyed a liquid lunch.

    104. Big Jock says:

      So this is Scotland in the union.

      All our oil revenues go to London
      We elected 56 SNP mp’s out of 59 and we have a Tory government
      The SNP are not even allowed to be the opposition
      We elected 63 SNP mp’s at Holyrood
      We voted 62% to stay in the EU but are getting taken out
      The economy is in freefall
      We are told we have too big a deficit to be independent, but Westminster have been in charge of Scotland’s economy for 300 years. So our economy is awful under the union but they want us to stay in order to maintain the failure.

      What exactly are we getting out of the union? Why oh why are we still here.

    105. manandboy says:

      Scotland is currently in the same position as someone who goes into a travel agent on a Friday and pays for a holiday with the UK, not knowing that the owner is already deep in debt and has decided to declare themselves bankrupt the following Monday.

      As day follows night, nothing is more certain. England will take Scotlands money and give nothing in return.

      Ruth Davidson, David Mundell and Ken McQuarrie are in post to make sure Scotland hears the Unionist lies of Better Together all over again.

      Whatever Brexit means for England and Wales, it will result in the certain ruination of Scotland. We all know how Westminster has broken all its promises since IndyRef14.

      IndyRef2 will be conducted by the Better Together campaign in the same way as IndyRef14 and EURef16 – relentless lying.

      Can Scotland stay sharp and keep its wits about it, and pay close attention to what’s going on and go up the road instead to the travel agent with EU above the door.

      Or will the majority be overcome with an attack of naivety and gullibility, and just go ahead and pay for the holiday they’ll never have.

      ‘You can fool some of the people all of the time – and they’re the ones you should concentrate on’.
      And how well the British Establishment know that.

      So let’s get ready. Ditch the TV Licence, join an Independence supporting party and forget the idea that somebody else is going to get your Independence/EU for you. Get up! And get it yourself.

    106. Valerie says:

      Good analysis by Paul Mason, much of the predictions are confirmed here.

      Scotland on its way out, and IF they remain in EU, financial bonanza to come. He says the capital flight threat used in 2014, now reversed.

      http://mondediplo.com/2016/07/03greece

    107. Big Jock says:

      Some politicians start with good intentions and end up turning into career politicians -Kezia Dugdale.

      Some politicians start with bad intentions and cause harm to the country and other countries – Tony Blair- Nigel Farage.

      Some start with deluded intentions and destroy the economy-Gordon Brown – George Osborne

      Some keep their intentions and never forget why they are elected -Nicola Sturgeon.

    108. galamcennalath at 2.41

      When the bandwagon fills up we know we have won. As the late great Oliver brown said “The value of a man of straw is that he shows which way the wind is blowing.”

    109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Mack @ 13:46,

      Fluffy had a wee spot on the lunchtime TV news, and he wasn’t at all his usual chipper self. He’s surely been given the heads-up on a coming economic squall.

      Carney is justifying himself and saying “told you so” to the Brexiteers.

      As usual, the state broadcaster is playing it all down. But there will come a point when even they won’t be able to sweep all the economic fallout under the carpet.

      Buffalo Gal and her little band of Davidistas have lost all sense of direction and are truly heading up sh*t creek without a paddle.

      We just have to stay smart and not follow them.

    110. Greannach says:

      Big Jock @ 3.07 pm:

      Some start with shockingly radical beliefs (shocking the parents’ bridge club) and end up being what they used to campaign against – Alistair Darling, FRUMP – Formerly Radical Upwardly Moneyed Politician.

    111. call me dave says:

      Thanks for the tip on the Sky thing with ‘old suede shoes’ 🙂

      Just watched that clip (naughty sky).

      That should go down like a lead balloon darn Sarf!

      In addition anyone in Scotland who voted leave will be really worried now and remainers will have their instinctive fears of tories and all that they will bring confirmed.

      What a pair of plonkers, walked right into that ‘technical error’ from Sky.

    112. Valerie says:

      @Dave Mcewan Hill

      And a few more got on that bandwagon today.

      Scottish Chambers of Commerce met with Nicola today, reps from the big 6.

      Lis Cameron of SCoC, said – our discussions focussed around the imperative to keep our access to the single market.

    113. K1 says:

      Cheers for that Cat, brought a wee smile tae ma coupon.

      ‘Symbolic of her struggle against reality’ about covers it 😉

    114. Legerwood says:

      O/t

      Declaration of Arbroath has been awarded UNESCO status a a document of world importance.

      Just saw the report on BBC Scotland news site.

    115. Hamish100 says:

      Shug
      re Blair and the Iraq war. Watching a lord on parliament tv representing labour 10 mins ago.

      Had a quick google http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/03/02/libya-and-the-hand-that-feeds/

      Yip the labour peer visited Libya linked with a US PR group “Monitor” who hired Dearlove – ex RUK spy also linked with Iraq. Promoted by Blair. Gadafi is a good guy apparently

      Westminster is corrupt to its core and filled with pus.

    116. Kevin Evans says:

      What’s the sky thing?

    117. galamcennalath says:

      Sky. Love Old Ken’s comment … “She [ Andrea Leadsom ] is not one of the tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside the single market.”

      So, all those Tories and UKIPers who say exactly that, in the words of a Tory grandee, are lunatics.

      Fair comment. As they say ‘lunatics are in charge of the asylum’.

    118. ronnie anderson says:

      Toons used tae hiv them Four Faced Clocks,every face ah different time, Buffalo Gal occupies ah different space & time from the rest of us & its not of this world.

    119. Bob Mack says:

      Anybody any idea how much it would cost to fill billboards across Scotland with a summary of all the above info. We need to start punching this message home as soon as possible to non Wingers and to the public alike. They already know something is not quite right and now ( psychlogically) speaking is the right time to confirm their suspicions for them.

      This country is in a state of chaos ( Scotland excluded), and we need to push that message now.

    120. carjamtic says:

      Kev @ 3:42

      Ham Troll I,Cod Fish Pie,Tory Bum Boys….

      ;-j

      jaiket oan

    121. msean says:

      The news seems to be all about picking your favourite Tory.I don’t have one,never had one,never voted for one yet seem to be ruled by them. Think some from other UK parties need to get a grip.

      Looks like we get the Tory partys’ favourite Tory for another decade,we should get out now. Nigel Lawson wants them to carry on Thatchers work.

    122. Big Jock says:

      Legerwood 3.34. I hear the Vow was also in the running for UNESCO status. However the award had to be withdrawn as none of the authors could be identified!

    123. Thepnr says:

      When Indref 2 comes around expect three major battlegrounds as highlighted today by the intervention of Alistair Darling.

      The £15 billion deficit black hole will prevent you joining the EU.

      You’ll need to join the Euro even if they did let you in.

      There will need to be a border between Scotland and England.

      We need to demolish these three arguments and every punter appearing on the telly in support of Independence needs to be well briefed in the arguments against these statements.

      Let’s hope we hear more from the EU with regard to Scotland being put into some kind of “holding pen” to deal with issue 1.

      Next be clear on the currency and educate the public about the actual rules to be met before considering the Euro as a currency.

      Three should be easily dealt with if rUK wishes to keep free trade agreements by joining the EEA as it will also have to accept free movement of people. If they choose not to then we might have to accept that there should be a border. Only though if they also insist on a border between Ireland and N. Ireland.

      I think the pro Indy camp starts this next campaign on a more sure footing, hopefully before it gets off the ground we will have done our homework.

      Bring it on Ruthie babe.

    124. Luigi says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      5 July, 2016 at 3:14 pm

      When the bandwagon fills up we know we have won. As the late great Oliver brown said “The value of a man of straw is that he shows which way the wind is blowing.”

      Yep, there is one big mother of a hurricane building. Not long now, folks. The planets are lining up. I think what will do it for most soft NOs is not even Europe, it’s the complete meltdown of WM and the outstanding performance of NS and the SG in response to this avoidable, tory-generated crisis. Who do the people really want to govern Scotland? BREXIT called the bluff of Project Fear and they were found wanting – they melted away like sna off a dyke. Whatever eurofudge WM finally comes up with, it will not impress the people and the global reputation of the UK has already been destroyed. Now, they are desperately trying to secure Trident renewal before they run out of money completely – rest assured you can kiss any new frigates on the Clyde goodbye.

      There will be more pain before gain, however, so buckle up and do what you can to help less fortunate members of our society who will, as usual, suffer the most.

    125. Iain More says:

      I have been walking the dug and drawing lines in the sand but the tide just washes them away. I fully expect that the Ruthless will have another change of mind tomorrow if it hasn’t occurred already.

      It has been relaxing not having to listen to the BBC as I just know that we have all been accused of something again today. I fully expect that the Iraq War will all be our fault by the time the BBC is finished with us tomorrow.

    126. K. A. Mylchreest says:

      ¨Camy says:
      5 July, 2016 at 11:20 am
      The joy of a line in the sand is, of course, that you can stand on either side of it…¨

      No, the joy of a line in the sand is that it gets washed away with every tide … 🙂

    127. Ken500 says:

      There will have be another Election soon as the UK Gov is now unrepresentative,

      The Tories won the last on by cheating and electoral fraud. That should e investigated and by Election shoud be held. They Tories will never get in power for forty years or never after this.

      The last election they had a majority of 12. There was election fraud in 29 seats, punishable by prison. It should have been a hung UK Giv with te SNP holding the balance of power. They would kept them to account and this chaos would not have happened. The Tories have ship gne their death warrant.

      Labour meanwhile self destruct. A total load of unelected useless Blairites more interest in troughing, wasting public money, posing and saving their own skins than saving the economy. Total useless criminals, who destroyed the world economy. They will reap what they sow. For killing and murdering innocent people and lying to go to illegal war. In order to tax evade and their line own pockets, embezzling and wasting public money on grotesque projects. Corbyn is the only one of any honesty without blood on his hand supported by the people in England.

    128. Ken500 says:

      @ The Tories have signed their own death warrant. They will never get back in power after this illegal destruction of the economy.

    129. DerekM says:

      @ Thepnr

      If we have a black hole it was you that caused it.

      ERM thickos

      Maybe you are right cant have our country flooded by economic migrants from the south trying to escape your incompetence.

      There thats the 3 busted already 😉

    130. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      “expect three major battlegrounds”

      You are probably right.

      “The £15 billion deficit black hole will prevent you joining the EU.”

      Yea, as per GERS. Easily brought down by lower defence and debt repayment costs. But we will still begin with a deficit. Most countries do have one.

      Here’s an EU thought. The Net UK contributions to the EU are €3.5b. However, what might Scotland’s be?

      Have a look at …
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm
      … Click net contributions.

      Look at some of the countries with negative contributions ie money out. Ireland, for instance.

      As a ‘new’ country, with decades of mismanagement, lots of set up costs, I would honestly expect the EU to give us money, rather than take it from us! When our economy gets over the initial trough, we can gratefully become net contributors.

    131. Thepnr says:

      @DerekM

      That’s the kind of thing, there’s me persuaded already 🙂

      Now if we could just flesh it out a little, you know for the hard of hearing and the blind when it comes to politics.

    132. jcd says:

      Bob Mack 3.49

      Bang on right of course but nothing will actually be done to make it happen, as per the useless and moribund inform-Scotland .org who were supposed to be building a campaign to do just that, crowdfund to hire billboards, place ads in some papers etc.

      Everyone talks a lot about how to get the message out there but no one seems to want to actually do it, no one that is with any know how, contacts, resources etc.

    133. Foonurt says:

      Referendums, bit no referenda. Sumhin tae dae wae Latin.

    134. Breeks says:

      JCD & Bob Mack

      Have you asked Nationalyesregistry.scot

      Heres a link but it might not work…

      //nationalyesregistry.scot/

      Its YES groups who are staying in touch andvkeeping the dream alive. Pretty sure if they can’t help you themselves they might know someone who can…

    135. Legerwood says:

      Big jock @ 4.01

      I heard the Vow is now an appendix to the Child of report. Right after the appendix containing the dodgy dossier.

    136. ephemeraldeception says:

      @Thepnr re: joining EU

      Darlings points are a straw man: Scotland wants and voted to remain in the EU not leave and not re-join. If Scotland is forced to leave then thats another story.

      One thing is sure though: Finances, currency and trade will be high up on the list of subjects that the spokespersons need clear and persuasive arguments.

      A start will also be to attack the Fear what it is: A Campaign of Deception and Lies, by showing what happened to the promises and warnings of Project Fear.

    137. Ken MacDonald on Newsdrive has played Ken Clarks “news conference”

    138. Macart says:

      @Valerie

      As I said earlier if wasn’t wasn’t for the catastrophic consequences of this tory pissing contest, it would be comedy gold.

      As it is the union has been brought into a constitutional crisis. Our EU nationals are living in fear of their future. The pound has tanked and the economy is at best facing a soft recession. Our democracy and human rights are under imminent threat. The UKs political reputation is the laughing stock of world politics and the capper is that the winners of what is now utterly confirmed as a tory pissing contest haven’t a goddam clue what they’re doing.

      Epic arrogance and ineptitude.

    139. schrodingers cat says:

      getting a bit annoyed at the, “once indyref2 starts” comments here.

      you all accept that the bbc has already launched project fear 3 but are somehow awaiting for the arrival of yes scotland fully equiped with snp chosen leaders to fire a starting gun.

      news for you. this is not going to happen. it cant. no one in scotland has the power to launch yes scotland, except the snp. and this time it wont.

      only you and your local indy supporting group have the power to relaunch your own local group.

      so fyi, Yes North East Fife has re launched, officially. indyref2 campaign is officially up and running. and our first task….

      we are going to flood the area with yes saltires, badges, car stickers and window posters. so that everyone in NE Fife knows that the indyref2 campaign has started.

      ps, ill send you some photos guys….

      pps, good luck with the relaunch of Yes Dunfermline, hope we can tie up sometime and discuss the issues we have with getting the merchandise to carry out our first objective

    140. DerekM says:

      I think we should keep it to one line answers for these questions and just keep repeating them,if we go down the road of trying to debate these we will be playing into their tactics,they tied us up last time because we gave them to much info.

      The one bit that concerns me is they will again ask what our plan is(i know they have a feckin cheek)
      How about when asked what our plan is we just answer not to be ruled by you muppets,what you want to see our plan tell you what we will show you ours if you show us your brexit plans.

      Lets not hand our battle plan to the enemy this time and keep them guessing,we made a big mistake last time giving them the info and letting them prepare a strategy.

    141. Petra says:

      Ach well the Electorate wont see her as someone who’s just changed her mind. They’ll just see her as another Tory LIAR, in a long line of LIARS such as Cameron, Osborne, Johnston, Gove and IDS.

      She lied to steal Labour / Libdem Unionist votes during the Scottish Elections. The aforementioned lied in relation to conning EU leavers AND remainers.

      I wonder how many of her 22% of Scottish supporters she’s lost since last May? And how many she’ll lose between now and Brexit?

    142. call me dave says:

      Interesting distribution pattern of EU money across the UK here.

      MSPs voice concern at the loss of Scotland’s £720million EU funding

      https://archive.is/IQ712

    143. schrodingers cat says:

      jcd

      see my last post

      wrt the yesregistry, i support them whole heartedly, i believe they will be an asset to this campaign, but only once it has gained momentum.

      the yesregistry can no more elect a leader of yes scotland than we can on wos, because what is left of the yes scotland organisation are the disperate grass roots organisations which have no means of speaking for anyone else other than themselves. neither do they have a means, a system, call it what you will of electing a new head of yes scotland.

      eg, lets say the yes registry elects…tommy sheridan as the new leader of yes scotland, or yesnef elects craig murray as the new leader of scotland??

      how’s that going to work?

      jcd
      Everyone talks a lot about how to get the message out there but no one seems to want to actually do it, no one that is with any know how, contacts, resources etc.

      oddly enough, wos is exactly the place to do this, the folk on this site have contacts, resources and the expertise to do exactly this.

      perhaps the discussion should focus on how we do this.

      1st problem for yesnef

      we need about 200 car window flags for a motorcade through the constituency, cheapest i can find them is at £2.50 each. (england ones on ebay, 50p a pair!)

      2nd problem, we need about 1000 badges (£2 each) and a similar number of car stickers to GIVE AWAY to people

      3rd problem, we want to do a complete mail (royal mail) shot of the entire constituency (about 60,000) (£1500) of an a4 leaflet(£1000) with the reversed sign doubling up as a a4 windows poster with YES written on it

      anyone got £5000 they can lend us?

    144. Paula Rose says:

      Am I right in thinking that it is not the deficit that is the most important but what the debt is that we would start off with?

    145. Bob Mack says:

      The more I think about it,( and it’s taken long enough,) the Psychology of the last referendum was all wrong. The Yes side for some reason spent most of the time in defensive mode rather than attack with facts. Was there an agent inside directing this strategy.

      We are armed daily with information we would have loved during the last referendum and we should be using it now to our advantage. These are not scare stories ,but fact.
      Warnings from the Bank of England
      Major investors pulling the plug.
      No security of EU workers who man our services and farms.
      No guarantee of farm subsidies.
      Recession forecast for next few months.
      Higher deficit forecast to around £ 100 billion.
      Osborne hints at cuts and tax rises.
      No single market access without free movement.
      FTSE 250 going down and staying down.
      THE pound lowering.
      Interest rates to fall putting off investors even more.
      Tories talking about cutting Barnett formula.
      Housing market warning of 35% drop in house values.
      This is only one week after Brexit so we can safely assume plenty more to come.

      What should the SNP be doing with that info to bring in a wider audience?

    146. Grouse Beater says:

      If your head’s spinning and eyes watering from multiple Tory escapades trashing the UK, here’s an essay for the road to make you smile: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7CN

    147. DerekM says:

      Spot on Paula and is something our reps should correct any time one of the yoons says Scottish deficit,our reps should jump in and say no its a UK deficit get your facts correct or are you deliberatly lying.

      No more Mr nice guy we should chuck the liar pants on fire bomb as much as we can.

    148. Ruby says:

      I do wish people would stop giving Tory Ruth Davidson these cutesy pet names.

      Valerie says:

      ‘The information WAS out there if you looked for it. It was there in The FT’

      Ruby replies

      I think he also said The Times.

    149. Ruby says:

      This ‘you are posting too quickly – slow down’ message doesn’t make sense.

    150. manandboy says:

      I read recently an assessment of the effectiveness of the Leave campaign in the EU Ref in England which made the point that it was an appeal to the emotions wot won it, not facts. The slogan ‘take back control’ had far more impact than any numbers.
      This may well have implications for Indy2, which incidentally is a very different kettle of fish from Indy14 – to the extent there may be little point in using Indy14 as a template.

    151. Vambomarbeleye says:

      The thing to remember with lines in the sand. The tide comes in and out every twelve hours and washes them away.

    152. ScottieDog says:

      @Paula Rose
      Re the debt/deficit.

      The answer is – it depends. If Scotland goes with its own currency then the deficit going forward is far less important.
      If we take our share of the debt (bearing in mind that the Bank of England bought up one fifth of UK debt just by printing up new reserves on the computer) the options are

      1) we can re-denominate the debt outstanding in the new currency – sounds a bit far fetched but it’s what Argentina did in the 90s when it defaulted on it’s dollar debt.
      2) service the debt in sterling. So we have to earn the sterling or borrow to service the debt. I think we have a pretty strong hand in terms of our physical assets such as oil, energy, and of course these subs and nukes in the Clyde that need shifting. So a deal with rUK would be pretty realistic.

      Staying with the pound seems more straight forward but then we are basically using a foreign currency and any shortfall in the nation’s income has to be borrowed. We probably won’t be able to borrow cheaply in what would now be a foreign currency – simply because we wouldn’t have a central bank which could do what the Bank of England did (as I mentioned above). When there is no central bank behind us, the purchasers of our country’s debt would want a better return due to higher perceived risk of default.

      So if we use a foreign currency like the pound or the euro, the deficit AND debt become much more relevant and we are much more at the mercy of the predatory lenders. We also have to be seen to be living within our means – yes that old chestnut!

      I see today that the Bank of England have allowed a reduction in capital required for bank lending. This is hugely irresponsible and will lead to another financial crisis sooner rather than later.

      Currency is key and don’t let anyone else tell you otherwise. If you want an example of a small nation who has full control of its currency and has shut out the predatory lenders just look to Iceland. If they can do it so can we.

    153. yesindyref2 says:

      @Paula Rose
      Both. The total debt we take after negotiation compared to our GDP affects our credit rating, and then our interest rates for borrowing, also the amount we have to pay per year in interest and repayments – hence increasing any deficit. The lower the % debt to GDP the better.

      For instance back in Indy Ref 1, a debt apportioned purely on population would have given us about £120 billion for a debt to GDP ratio of around 80% (compared to the uk at 90% and Greece at whatever, 150%). But the SNP’s projected figure historically was £50 billion for a cool 33% debt to GDP ratio.

      The indicative ratings from SNP and Moody’s assumed we’d either take a full ratio of debt – or “walk away” from debt, which they asssessed as being the same credit rating. What they didn’t do is assess a rating for an agreed settlement way less than the per capita one.

      A country’s credit rating can also affects bank and the finance sector, plus the larger businesses whose rating will rarely be above the country’s rating.

      If you have a deficit it usually results in borrowing (it doesn’t always have to), the better the credit rating, the easier to borrow, and the lower the interest rate. Personally I’d expect, presuming a fair settlement over debt, for Scotland to want to borrow MORE in the first 2 or 3 years, to rebalance our economy. Swinney had, I think, the same idea.

    154. ScottieDog says:

      @cearc
      “The £ slid to a record post-ref low this morning.
      Gilt auction clocked record low yields. “Gilt yields are now fully priced for a deep recession” – FT.”

      Really important to see what will happen now. Solvency crisis, default?
      Nope absolutely nothing excelt probably more QE. (The Bank of England buying the gilts)

      A currency issuing nation can always afford to pay claims in it’s own currency – to paraphrase a former chairman of the federal bank of the United states of America

      So Scotland needs to take note on its currency options.

    155. manandboy says:

      When you’ve ruled half the world in building the British Empire, it must be a tad difficult to then switch to being an ‘equal partner’, even with the European Union. As for Scotland, ‘equal partner’ – no chance. Scotland is the perfect colony, apart from the natives.

      Such is England’s problem. They prefer to be separate and superior, even if it means hardship to ‘ordinary people’.
      The ruling class won’t suffer.

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog
      Yeah, currency is a useful thing as well as being a potential problem.

      For me much of the £ sliding is just rederessing the balance and getting the £ back to its underlying value against the Euro. With the eurozone crisis the £ was seen as a safe harbour, flooding investiment into the £. Well, now it’s not, so that investment is flooding out again, seeking other safe havens.

      For me the true value of a currency is how many eggs can it buy!

    157. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ruby Am only uasin two fingers & im getting the same message lol.

    158. Petra says:

      @ Ken500 says at 4:44 pm …. ”The Tories have signed their own death warrant. They will never get back in power after this illegal destruction of the economy.”

      Are you talking about the UK, Ken? If so, who WILL get in? The Labour Party, Blair and Brown, destroyed the economy prior to the Tories destroying the economy. Double whammy from a bunch of total incompetents!

      Looks as though the Labour Party is over and out now anyway. So where’s the so-called opposition to the Tories? What a bleak picture especially for the English electorate. They wont know where to turn to. Who to vote for. I can see the Tories in power …. in aeternum …. unless many Labour MPs join the Libdems or Ukip. Not great either, eh, and will these particular parties ever have the required ‘numbers’ to defeat the Tories? Thank God we’ve got an extremely decent political party running Scotland, that’s all I can say.

      PS …. Carney saying that the indecision with regard to Brexit is creating challenging problems in relation to the economy. In other words it’s make your mind up time.

      Moronic Mundell on next, conversely, saying that we shouldn’t rush into ‘re-enacting Article 50’. No wonder the country is in a diabolical mess. Carney must be totally sick of it / them. Maybe he should just throw in the towel and do a runner like the perpetrators of the bl**dy mess and let them all get on with it …. or rather not get on with it as per the norm.

    159. Nana says:

      O/T

      Have a laugh folks, watch you don’t strain your chuckle muscles now.

      Geez sometimes there are no words

      http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2016-17/278

    160. Iain More says:

      OT

      It looks like the Tories have voted and the vote is No Sweaties Allowed not even Oxfud educated ones.

    161. deewal says:

      The BBC Must be muzzled if we are to have any chance of a win in a Referendum.
      Stop paying the Fee and Stop Watching it. You are feeding it by watching it.

      Personally I don’t know why the place is not a heap of ashes.

    162. galamcennalath says:

      Tory vote.

      Teresa May 165
      All the others combined 164

      So, the competition among MPs is now to find No2 to give the wider membership their choice of two.

      The MPs say May for PM. The membership may of course be minded differently.

    163. ScottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2

      For a currency issuing nation such as the UK, Japan etc, the interest rate is controlled by the central bank so credit rating has no bearing in terms of interest rates on gilts/bonds. Sadly it is another myth peddled by the mainstream.

      Japan is a good example. It’s government went down the path of huge deficit spending to the point where it’s government debt to GDP ratio sits around 250% (the UK sits around 80%).
      Ratings agencies downgraded Japan eventually to junk status – lower than countries it was supplying foreign aide to.
      All this time Japanese binds have sat at less than 1%. It’s central banks controls this and not the markets.

      Yes, credit ratings are important for currency USING countries. They are just like a household in terms of their borrowing.

      I’m hoping that people are really grasping the importance of sovereign currency.

    164. DerekM says:

      @ Nana

      Funny how i was just thinking about liars with their pants on fire and look who pops up none other than lib dem serial liar big Al jackanory lol

    165. Ruby says:

      https://archive.is/6Cdxd
      Brexit can be started without parliament vote, government lawyers say

      Oliver Letwin, heading Whitehall’s Brexit unit, says legal advice is that article 50 can be invoked under royal prerogative

      The prime minister can trigger the two-year process of negotiating the UK’s withdrawal from the EU without a vote in parliament, government lawyers have advised.

    166. Balaaargh says:

      @Nana

      The tears of laughter are literally rolling down my cheeks at that one. Screenshot time, people! Spread it far and wide!

      http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2016-17/278

      and archived here:

      https://archive.is/LTs6Y

    167. desimond says:

      Socrates
      Dalglish the last Scot to go south and step onwards…

      Brian McLair surely did the business?

      You could possibly argue Alan McNally but i could let that one go.

      My favourite is still the ITV commentator thinking it was a Frenchman Paul Lamberrrhhht man marking Zinidine Zidane out the game for Dortmund in CL.

    168. Cadogan Enright says:

      A NEW DAWN, A NEW HOPE
      The day after the EU referendum I went along to support the Kilclief residents association in my area who were doing a fundraiser for a planning application for a cycle Path between them and the next door village of Strangford.

      As I walked in the door, I saw this picture and bought it – and Maurice Denvir the chair of the residents association sent me this digital copy to share with you.

      It seemed so apposite on the day. http://www.enright.ie/edinburgh1

    169. frogesque says:

      Seen in Glenrothes today, white van and a car, both sporting shiney new YES stickers. Also one car with elderly lady driver sporting a UJ on the aerial.

      The battle has begun!

    170. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath,
      My (virtual) money is a final run-off between Thatcher Mk.2 and Thatcher Mk.3.

      (I can just see the front page of The National with their faces in each case transposed onto the familiar body of Thatcher Mk.1. =grin=)

    171. Famous15 says:

      Theresa May daughter of the Episcpalian manse surges on!

      Lat week I hinted at her resemblance to Cruella de Ville and was somewhat ashamed of myself.

      This week after she proudly said she would use European citizens here as a bargaing chip I feel very moderate. She is a disgusting piece of humanity. I am not part of team GB and please Scotlands’ peoples wash this slime from MY country.

      Tories are toxic slime. Vote independence for Scotland . Democracy should be a country gettting what a majority of its voters vote for.

    172. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ruby:

      … legal advice is that article 50 can be invoked under royal prerogative

      Ironic really, a monarchical constitutional relic invoked to force through a popular plebiscite.

      The UK, it’s rapidly becoming a joke.

      And any defender of it a comedian.

    173. cearc says:

      Petra,

      Although the BoE job term is for 8 years, Mark Carney said that he would probably leave after 5 (end 2017).

      Maybe he’d like a new job setting up a new currency for a resource rich wee country with sane politicians?

    174. Breeks says:

      Grass roots is fine, but infantry needs NCO’s and Officers simply to co-ordinate the effort.

      I note the suggestion that maybe Craig Murray would make a great figurehead, I agree, and I also think G. A. Ponsonby would be an able and safe pair of hands. The only thing about Mr Ponsonby is getting him past BBC security for studio appearances, and to be frank, I like Mr Ponsonby exactly where he is ripping the BBC to shreds.
      Tommy Sheridan is a great communicator, and a legend who can do no wrong for those folks facing warrant sales, and a legend who maybe can do wrong in the eyes of others. There’s a Hawick Common Riding song that goes “What though our lads are wild a wee, and ill tae keep in order…” I’d have Tommy aboard any day of the week.

      I’m guessing we’re not counting political voices or personalities, as in party faithful.

      What we really want is personality; I mean YES has all arguments, but the message needs the charisma and presence, and a hawkish eye and sharper tongue for BBC duplicity. I think that’s definitely Rev Stu’s hat in the ring, but like Messers Ponsonby and Bell, desperate vacuums to fill if they change position.

      I don’t know the man’s politics at all, but every Scottish drama seems to have a central roll specially written for James Cosmo. There’s also tremendous presence with a certain Mr Coltrane, Labour friendly, and presumeably JK friendly too… But is he a Yesser? Brian Cox? Oh yes.

      Too much Hollywood for Holyrood? Maybe.

      Lesley Riddoch? Could be a good call.

      A strange question occurs however, and that’s how exactly Blair Jenkins got the job last time around? I don’t mean anything by asking, merely was there some kind of pre-Yes committee or college that did a lot of work and admin behind the scenes to get YES rolling?

      Maybe there are unknown faces to most of us but brilliant embassadors for YES at a grassroots level.

      Maybe the NationalYesRegistry should invite suggestions, approach the select few, draw up a shortlist and canvas for wider endorsement?

      We have done this before. Whoever did what in 2012, 2013, and 2014, you are our veterans. Let’s do it again. Yes started well and got stronger, and while leadership was an issue for some, we have experience to guide us now. Let’s do it.

    175. Valerie says:

      A bit off topic, but relevant to May mentioning early Trident vote.

      Upcoming NATO summit to discuss Russia.

      Please take the time to read, if you think – the Russians are coming.

      The Russians have been getting need led and taunted for years, all at the behest of USA. We are dragged along in the wake, like flotsam.

      One of the big reasons I want independence, is rid of Trident, a and out of the murderous misadventures promoted around the globe by USA.

      I’m not defending Russia, they will take steps to defend their country, and if that does happen, we are all fcked.

      If we ever get the chance to get out of NATO, I will be supporting that. They are nothing more than America’s military outpost.

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/sweden-joins-natos-emerging-war-against-russia-2/5534254

    176. Famous15 says:

      O/T
      Liz Margolys on the One Show doing a piece on the NHS Scotland (her father was a doctor in Glasgow)

      Visits her cousin and she tells her how wonderful NHS Scotland is in this day and age. Her cousin agrees but one would not think so from all the bad stories in the papers she says.

      SNP baad is beyond Bradford bad and people know the truth!

    177. Nana says:

      Finish the job Margaret Thatcher started, that is the next tory heid’s brief. Is it my imagination or are these tories getting uglier. Poison festering within their marrow.

      https://twitter.com/Sean__Clare/status/750292533025054720?lang=en-gb

      Goldie made a speech in the hol basically saying Nicola has everything wrong and the tories who have wrecked the country are right in all things. Bloody hell hold me back I’m liable to do some damage.

    178. Ruby says:

      ‘I just want to say something about this idea of facts and the idea that there weren’t enough facts I have to say I disagree. There were facts everywhere if you knew where to look if you looked at The Economist, if you looked at The Times newspaper you would find there were serious journalist doing their level best to explain exactly what the facts were on both sides of the argument.
      Adam Tomkins.

      What an idiot!

    179. Richardinho says:

      One thing that to me is very striking about Ruth Davidson, but which few if any in the media ever seem to remark upon, is what a dishonest person she is. Only someone who had complete contempt for the truth could hold such diametrically opposite positions at different (not very distant) points in time, and do so with such stridence.

      Basically she’s a wee fibber.

    180. Dan Huil says:

      There are many well-known pro-indy Scots living in Scotland who could lead a non-payment of the bbc tax campaign.

      Ony weel-kent chiels takin tent o this?

    181. Glamaig says:

      Bob Mack says:
      5 July, 2016 at 5:47 pm

      The more I think about it,( and it’s taken long enough,) the Psychology of the last referendum was all wrong. The Yes side for some reason spent most of the time in defensive mode rather than attack with facts.

      That was because Project Fear would lead the news with a scare story (reported at length). The BBC then gave Yes time for a brief rebuttal. Of course they can choose which soundbites to broadcast and they may not choose the most effective. The result of this is that Yes was perceived to be on the back foot all the time and without effective counter-arguments, although in theory the BBC were ‘balanced’ because they gave each side their say.

      Next time we could run our own Project Fear as you say, but it will be up against the Unionist one. The BBC choose which press releases to read out and how much rebuttal time to give to the other side. My guess is that exactly the same thing will happen again.

      All we can do is try and make people aware of how they are being manipulated and how narratives are set by the media. The most effective way of doing this is by talking to people, not ranting (natural though that is!) but just quietly pointing out the logic fails, inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and missing information. It can be counter productive to directly use words like ‘propaganda’ or ‘lies’.

      When you consider what we are up against, the Yes campaign achieved miracles.

    182. X_Sticks says:

      @Nana

      Thanks for the Carmichael link. What a brass neck that lying turd has. I’ve put it out on twitter, if you’re on there give it a retweet 🙂

    183. JLT says:

      She’s not the first, and she won’t be the last. Even Kezia must be squirming badly at what to do next.

      The fallout from the EU Referendum won’t be over by any means when May is hailed as leader of the Conservatives; it will just be the beginning of a new chapter of woe, accusations and further resignations.

      All we can do, is look on, work through each new revelation, and hopefully …just hopefully …somehow negotiate a 2nd Referendum from a point that will be of great advantage to the nationalist cause.

      These next few months are going to see some exhilarating as well as the odd disappointing moment.

      But, buckle up …and hang on! No one has seen such political turmoil in 350 odd years!! We’re in for one helluva ride!!!

    184. Iain More says:

      ScottieDog says:
      5 July, 2016 at 6:59 pm
      @yesindyref2

      “For a currency issuing nation such as the UK, Japan etc, the interest rate is controlled by the central bank so credit rating has no bearing in terms of interest rates on gilts/bonds. Sadly it is another myth peddled by the mainstream.

      Japan is a good example. It’s government went down the path of huge deficit spending to the point where it’s government debt to GDP ratio sits around 250% (the UK sits around 80%).
      Ratings agencies downgraded Japan eventually to junk status – lower than countries it was supplying foreign aide to.
      All this time Japanese binds have sat at less than 1%. It’s central banks controls this and not the markets.

      Yes, credit ratings are important for currency USING countries. They are just like a household in terms of their borrowing.

      I’m hoping that people are really grasping the importance of sovereign currency.”

      I think UKOK is heading to mega mega junk status for one simple reason and that is if things keep going the way they are going then UK Savings rates as a percentage of GDP are going to collapse. UKOK is pretty much amongst the poorest Global savers right the now. Japan on the other hand has a ridiculously high savings rate in relation to UKOK. Oh and as for Norway if I remember the stats well they are amongst the top 10 in the World when it comes to savings as a percentage of their GDP. In other words the UK Gov will not be able to repay its debts without having to print money to buy its own junk bonds. Here comes the not so much the Weimar Republic but the UKOK Weimer Monarchy. Oh and even in the best case scenario we are heading for a recession. I think it is high time us Scots started impersonating rats.

    185. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      “My (virtual) money is a final run-off between Thatcher Mk.2 and Thatcher Mk.3.”

      Aye, it will be handbags at two paces.

    186. Socrates MacSporran says:

      desimond @ 7.05pm

      I might have a blind spot when it comes to McClair – he did ok at club level, but, his international record is poor, so he doesn’t do it for me.

      McInally, I saw his faither play, Alan was not even half the player his old man was. How the son got even one cap, while his faither was uncapped, is beyond me.

    187. Ghillie says:

      Sand has a tendency to shift.

      A safe analogy for insecure policies.

    188. Thepnr says:

      @Breeks

      Definitely don’t go for a political figure. We can’t go for a complete unknown either like Blair Jenkins was. So why not got for a well kent face?

      Elaine C Smith would be good, as would Irvine Welsh if he moved back to Scotland. Annie Lennox is the same and done much good charity work. All are supporters of Independence.

      Not sure if Robert Carlyle though supports Independence but would love to see the character Begbie take on Andrew Neil or Brewer 🙂

      Ok all tongue in cheek, we might instead choose an Englishman like Billy Bragg or Morrissey who both support us.

      Anyone but an establishment figure, one with a wee bit of passion.

    189. mike cassidy says:

      Manandboy 6.12

      and others

      Here again is the link to the notion that ‘facts’ don’t count as much as people think – especially in the social media sphere.

      https://medium.com/@Oxford_University/eu-referendum-views-from-oxford-994df911acb6#.9b3ln5m24

      Go down to the second article on the page

      “Impact of social media on the outcome of the EU referendum”

      That’s why “Greece without the sun” was all over the place – and will stick!

      Indyref2 may have to be the battle of soundbites and emotions.

      eg “Let my economic basket-case go”

    190. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi desimond.

      Re: the mispronunciation of “Paul Lambehrrrrrre”…

      Years ago, ITN had a reporter called ‘Giles Radice’ (pronounced ‘radeechie’).

      This particular ‘News At Ten’ had a report from Giles, introduced by whatever newscaster was holding the reins, pronouncing his name correctly – ‘Radeechie’.

      A wee while later, they went to the sport, where a report was given on a Dundee United game, which had been played, according to the newscaster, at ‘Tannadeechie’…

    191. mike cassidy says:

      Indyref2

      Vote ‘no’ if you want more foodbanks!

    192. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Breeks.

      Brian Cox is a DEFINITE Yesser (he wore one of our “EH!” badges) but may not be able to devote the time required, as he is also a rather busy ‘jobbing actor’.

      8=)

    193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr, Breeks,

      I reckon the best person by far would be Paul Kavanagh (WGD). He would be wonderfully acerbic with any lying yoon opponent. A dose of good humour can convince far more than any number of detailed treatises.

    194. Thepnr says:

      On Sep 19th 2014 I didn’t feel like getting out of bed in the morning. It was done and we were beaten.

      The liars had it and the knows had failed. we had failed in getting the knowledge our and eliminating the lies. I belived that morning that I would not see Independence in my lifetime.

      That was before a 2015 GE where the Tories were elected with a majority and the SNP almost swept the board clean in Scotland.

      It was before a Brexit vote that stripped Scotlands citizens of their EU status on the back of which English and Welsh voters chose.

      It was before the resignation of the UK Prime Minister and his probable replacement being a Thatcherite clone. I never thought I may despise a Tory politician more than I do with Cameron and Osborne. I expect now to be proved wrong.

      I failed to see all those things. I hope now I do live to see Independence and that I was wrong on that too.

      Going by my record since Sep 19th 2014, chances are I was.

    195. Valerie says:

      @Nana, I can’t help feeling that’s why we have 2 women in the running for PM.

      These public school boys love a bit of domination, getting spanked or vying for affection.

      I was reading a piece about these boys being ripped from their family aged 7 for boarding school, and having to toughen up, compete, but deep down, they can’t fail to be left with some issues of abandonment, women etc.

      They are definitely a product of a certain type of upbringing, and can be stuck with childish behaviour.

      I still can’t shake off Cameron saying why should he do the hard stuff. Regardless of the fact he lost, he brought this down on the whole country, and he runs and hides. Osborne hiding, BoJo playing cricket.

      What these posh boys don’t seem to have is a spine, integrity, honesty or any ability to see they don’t connect. If I met them in real-life, I’d body swerve big time.

      They are hankering after Nanny, who was safety, or the sinking of the Belgrano. When their world is threatened, it’s retreat to the Britnat fortress.

    196. stewartb says:

      Picking up on Glamaig’s useful post @7.32pm:

      I trust those SNP and other pro-independence campaigners that are involved in media interviews and public debates with Unionists are reflecting on their presentation and debating skills. It was notable in the big set piece TV debate at Wembley on EU membership that Ruth Davidson deployed some classic ‘gish galloping’ (https://speakingofresearch.com/2012/09/11/gish-gallop/ ) that was not countered effectively by the opposing side.

      And its clear that refutation in political debate is far from straightforward. See this from Professor Martin G. Evans, an organisational psychologist at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management, in an article in the Boston Globe (14 August 2014 – https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/08/13/confronting-and-refuting-political-lies/DqojwnVw9gDGWzAn2WrI6L/story.html ).

      It has been claimed that “ …. when disputants argue things out in the marketplace of ideas, lies will be exposed.” However, Evans disputes this.

      “Unfortunately, it is not as simple as that. The lie itself usually opens up a new arena for discussion and, by being first on the ground, sets up the mental frame for the argumentation to come.

      Therefore, those wishing to refute a political lie have a two-part task: (1) they must convincingly articulate the truth, and (2) they have to replace the existing frame of discussion with a more accurate one. Those tasks are very difficult to accomplish.

      Why? Because the mental frame the lie establishes is then used to channel the information we receive. Information consistent with the frame is easily assimilated in our minds. Information that is inconsistent with the frame tends to be ignored or distorted into being consistent.”

      Evans adds: “Counter-speech is at a major disadvantage here; the …. politician who gets the lie in first has the higher ground. This advantage for the lying party is enhanced by repetition. Repeating the lie time and again strengthens the network of nerve associations (the neurological substrate) underlying the frame in the minds of listeners and readers, making the lie more difficult to refute.”

      “Paradoxically, …. when the candidate denies the lies, the same frame is invoked and once again the neurological substrate is strengthened. For effective counter-speech, the candidate must escape from the original frame. How? Well, for example, he could speak about all the good things he has done for his constituents and the people ..… By talking this route, there is a good chance that he can supplant the old negative frame with a new, more positive frame.”

      Professor Evans argues: “Cognitive science has much to teach us in the political arena. By increasing awareness of these tendencies, we can perhaps help inoculate the public against succumbing to these harmful distortions. But we also need to discourage the repetition of obvious lies.”

    197. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Apologies to the WGD. Why did I miss what was staring me in the face? I second that Robert, at least he would be OUR choice.

    198. Ruby says:

      http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/46df4956-a397-4fc2-ad0a-20f70fb08e65

      It’s a pity that Adam Tomkins couldn’t advise Westminster where they could get the facts because it seems they didn’t have a clue.

      They are going to be very busy for the next two years finding all the facts. Pity they didn’t do some contingency planning.

      The committee don’t seem to be very impressed with David Cameron’s resignation they seem to think it was a ‘dereliction of duty’

      The above video is worth watching!

      I wonder if they would have been in as much of a mess if Scotland had voted YES if I remember correctly there was absolutley no contingency planning for a YES vote.

    199. Tam Jardine says:

      Breeks, Thepnr

    200. ScottieDog says:

      @Iain More
      Actually Japan’s central bank owns a far higher proportion of its government debt than the UK. This is why the main streamers are taking of ‘default’ etc – which won’t happen.
      Savings don’t really have a bearing but private debt certainly does and the UK’s private debt to GDP ratio is up at 2006 levels.

      Interestingly when people start to save (if able), the quantity of money in the economy reduces – the population is paying down its debt faster than it is taking on new loans. When banks lend, they create money. When people repay the debt, the money is destroyed and the money supply reduces. This is where the government has to step in and run a deficit to prevent a depression.

      So we see the desperation now where the Bank of England are encouraging people to take on new loans to indent the population even more. The real solution however is for the government to spend. This is the only thing that will allow the private sector to deleverage.

      When people have less debt, they have more disposable income and then spend money. Economies run on people spending money. This is why the UK economy is in decline.

    201. Ruby says:

      If Oliver Letwin’s fact finding Enquiry takes as long and is expensive as the Chilcot Enquiry the next Prime Minister better wait 5 years before pressing the Article 50 button.

    202. Bob Mack says:

      @Mike Cassic,

      I agree Mike. We need to concoct some catchy snap phrases to go with the serious message. I’m sure Wingers could come up with some. Such as

      “This Union is not for workers.” Any ideas?

    203. Glamaig says:

      @Bob Mack

      …I should add to that, yes I think we should be more assertive next time. We will have the advantage that the independence option this time is offering both the excitement and opportunities of independence and the stability of staying in the EU vs the danger and unknowns of post-Brexit UK.

    204. Derick fae Yell says:

      Guys. Guys. Guyettes. G g. ff fg g g g

      Brasso. Need more Brasso.

      Early day motion calls for Office of Electoral Integrity
      Sponsor.
      wait
      for
      it
      Alistair Carmichael.

      ba ba gg ba ba ba
      http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2016-17/278

    205. Apollo says:

      No wonder Ruthie has a face like fizz.

      She had put herself in a corner by going full blown for the No-surrender vote during the election in the short-sighted belief there would be no change, never. Unfortunately in life, change is inevitable and when you put yourself in such in an absolutist position as Ruth Davidson did then there will be a time when you will fall big time.

      The more I look at it, the more I think independence is inevitable. It isn’t because I arrogantly think that Scots will vote for it but because we are at the mercy of outside forces and those forces at the present time are favourable towards independence.

      The biggest outside force has been Brexit. As I previously mentioned, it has totally blown the main opposition to indy out of the water, aided by their stupidity.

      There is also the fact that Brexit has caught the attention of the world and with Nicola Sturgeons cool calm leadership after the event as well as her confident presence in the European stage afterwards, has fired it’s imagination and curiosity.

      Because of this European and Worldwide news agencies will invest in coverage of the Scottish developments rather than regurgitating second rate reports of Reuters and the BBC. It’s means there will be a fresh perspective with the next indy referendum and the debate will centre around this and not the myopic insular propaganda of the British mainstream media.

      There is also a realignment of Scottish politics where Labour and the Liberals are stuck in the position of being pro European but belonging to a larger party that will be stuck in the UK outside the Europe. I feel they will have no option but move towards independence or at least not be so adversarial towards the idea.

      Of course this is just a personal opinion and it could go the other way where things start settling down and more people between comfortable with being in the UK outside Europe. However, that seems doubtful the way the Westminster politics are going both with Labour and the Tories where it is making Game of Thrones look like the Bambi movie.

      As the saying goes, we live in interesting times.

    206. Lenny Hartley says:

      I see some bonds are now paying negative interest. Can only think that investors are putting their Monet into strong economies away from the markets.

      Don’t think anybody will want to pay the boe to shelter their cash with inflation they would have a better return putting it on a 3 legged horse.

    207. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Thepnr one things for certain it wont be anyone from the Grassroots ,to much passion an nae bullshit.

    208. Tam Jardine says:

      Breeks, Thepnr

      Needs more thought but I went to the marvellous concert A Night for Scotland at the Usher Hall and Elaine compered the second half. The hairs on the back of my neck stand up watching this. The energy in that hall was something else. And Elaine is brilliant as ever.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGN1EcqaFJU#t=156.306575

      Does it need to be some indy celeb? Does it need a single attackable figurehead? If you need one person heading up the campaign I would choose the First Minister. I can think of none better or more qualified and she is at the very height of her powers right now.

    209. galamcennalath says:

      mike cassidy says:

      “Indyref2

      Vote ‘no’ if you want more foodbanks!”

      Sounds like a good Twitter campaign. I’m not on Twitter but someone who is might think it worthwhile to do.

      Indyref2: Vote No if you want a privatised NHS #votenoif

      … or whatever

    210. Calum McKay says:

      Poor old druthie doesn’t know whether she’s going for a shite or hair cut

    211. HandandShrimp says:

      I have no idea what Ruth actually thinks at the moment. The chances are what she thinks about the Muppets in her party in Westminster is unrepeatable.

      I see someone rattled Darling’s gilded cage and he wittered about epitaphs. Brexit is your epitaph you Better Together fibbing oddball.

    212. Thepnr says:

      @ScottieDog

      I support your argument for an independent currency in an Independent Scotland. Can you answer me this though as some of your argument fails to hit home.

      Your last post stated “The real solution however is for the government to spend. This is the only thing that will allow the private sector to deleverage.”

      Government spending is made up of income raised through tax and money borrowed, am I correct? If simply spending by government is the answer then why bother to raise any taxes?

      I guess rampant inflation then becomes an issue. Print too much and the currency becomes worthless. If the economic arguments were so simple I think Scotland would have been Independent by now.

      Another question, why did the two Noble Laureates on economics advising the Scottish Government miss something so obvious as you imply?

    213. Tam Jardine says:

      OT Not sure if anyone caught Alex Thomson of C4 news getting support for Scottish Independence from the Czech consol. Alex (who I think is one of the better journalists) visited a multicultural cafe in Leith to get the view from 3 young Polish kids living over here.

      Of course they are uncertain over their future and each confirmed that. End of report. I would love to know what else was said as I cannot imagine you take a Channel 4 camera crew all the way to Leith to ask 1 question.

      My questions would be 1. what do you think of Nicola Sturgeon’s reassurances to EU migrants living in Scotland and 2. would you vote for Scottish Independence in order to keep Scotland in the EU.

      I can’t imagine he didn’t ask those very questions.

    214. Rock says:

      Davidson is the most disgusting and dishonest politician in Scotland in my view.

    215. Donald says:

      If I understand correctly the Tory position is they will vote against a referendum but they won’t block it if there is a majority in parliament. This is their consistent position.

    216. Rock says:

      Chilcot report out tomorrow.

      My prediction is it will be a whitewash.

      The waffle in it will mean the war criminals will get away with it, except perhaps a scolding.

    217. Iain More says:

      re Brexit Economy

      I wont repeat what others have said about Credit Ratings or Balance of Trade and so on.

      I pretty much view what is happening and what is going to happen in England and the SE of England in particular as revenge for Indy Ref 14. All the Bad Karma that the Brit Nats accumulated from Indy Ref 14 is now being unleashed with interest.

      It could have been all so different. I frankly doubt that England and Wales would have voted for Leave if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014. Indeed we wouldn’t have had an EU Referendum in Scotland this year at all. Indeed nor would England and Wales be have had one in my view. The Deil Tak them!

    218. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog
      Yes, the central bank controls the interest rate inside the country, the rate at which banks borrow, but it doesn’t control external lenders, international markets like Deutsche Bank who lend to Governments. The rate they charge isn’t controlled by the credit ratings either, but it is guided by it.

    219. Thepnr says:

      @Tam Jardine

      There would be no one better than Nicola Sturgeon except for the fact that she leads the SNP and there are not that many SNP supporters who would vote against Independence.

      It’s voters of all the other parties and none that we need to win.

      Nicola will play her part anyway and for that I’m grateful as she is the best politician in the UK as she has most recently shown.

      Frankie Boyle it is then LOL.

    220. Jock McDonnell says:

      Good discussion above on gish gallop.
      Like ignoring the trolls, you shouldn’t waste time trying to refute every lie, the positives get no airtime, so tell a completely different narrative.
      When they say oil has fallen, just say the UK’ s national debt is 1.6 trillion.
      When they say our public sector is too big, just say we have Europe’s largest marine resources.
      Let the positives be heard.

    221. Liz g says:

      I too think The Wee Ginger Dug would be fantastic as head of yes.
      Even if he said no he would do it so eloquently.
      Only question is Who is going to jump over and ask him.

    222. Tinto Chiel says:

      “They are hankering after Nanny, who was safety, or the sinking of the Belgrano. When their world is threatened, it’s retreat to the Britnat fortress.”

      I agree, Valerie. They need a spank and some bromine from Nursie. What a pathetic bunch of emotional retards.

      Thepnr: are you sure about Annie Lennox? I thought she was a Britnat. Happy to be contradicted.

      Socrates: I agree about Jackie McInally. First saw him in an Accies/Killie cup tie in the 60s, with Tommy McLean in nappies on the right wing. Jackie’s knees used to bruise his chin once he started one of his daft, breenging runs. And then he went to MFC and legend-hood.

      BDTT: loved your Italian rendition of Tannadice. Still used among the Fir Park intelligentsia (pop. 7) for a wee laugh. I’m off before Paula Rose starts one of her anti- football rants.

    223. Kenny says:

      The YES movement has so much talent, I do not think it is possible to have one single “head person”.

      It is best to appeal to all sorts of the population, whether it is Robert McAlpine or Tommy Sheridan, or Mhairi Black or Lesley Riddoch. Say, Riddoch or Freeman for BBC interviews, McAlpine or Sheridan for getting the vote out in Glasgow and Dundee…

      Whatever the case, the BBC will link the YES movement to the SNP (sorry, SNP-BAD) party, so Nicola will inevitably be a focus anyway…

      On-topic: Ruth Davidson is morphing into Jackie Bailie… and it is NOT a good look!

      Off-topic: Talking to an Italian, who was very well aware that in Scotland every single constituency voted in favour of the EU. That is a massive achievement which must give us tons of PR and a firm place at the EU negotiating table…. could any other nation in Europe return a 100% vote like that???

    224. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog
      Anyway, I agree about the sovereign currency. But it’s timing, with the ability to support the currency – and resisit speculators.

      @Thepnr
      I think the idea was to transition and allow the economy to stabilise, perhaps also a build-up of reserves, or to get into a position to do so. Sterlingisation would in fact have allowed a role for a central bank, which I preferred to the formal currency union. But I think that was a part of negotiation to bring down the share of debt – in spite of what Unionists claim, a strong currency such as the pound is worth a lot of money. Even NIESR coughed about that before quickly passing on in their report.

      The FCWG gave a good paper, my favourite is the last page (page 11), which I keep printed off in landscape A4. It was very handy to politely put unionists in their place when they made wild claims.

    225. Glamaig says:

      @stewartb

      Good stuff. Another technique used by the BBC is finishing a report with a final twist or statement that sows doubt in the mind. When we listen to a report we often forget much of the content but are more likely to remember the first and final points made. Overall the report may be balanced but that final sentence is the one most likely to be remembered.

      This is the ‘serial position effect’. When presented with information, we tend to remember the first and last parts.

      The bastards have no doubt honed these techniques for decades with the help of psychologists.

    226. Luigi says:

      Instead of Nicola demanding that EU citizens already in Scotland are guaranteed by WM that they can remain after BREXIT, it would be an absolute show stopper if Nicola would just come out and say “Whatever the next PM says, EU citizens in Scotland who wish to remain are welcome. They are going nowhere!”.

      If the SG refused to cooperate with WM, how difficult would it be for them to deport EU citizens from Scotland?

      Pretty impossible, IMO. Perhaps the SG is keeping its powder dry for now, but crunch time may come soon, and if and when it does, the people must be ready to back Holyrood against WM. The SG has done brilliantly thus far, but the real test is still to come. I can see a critical, constitutional standoff developing. If the SG stand their ground, the people will support them. We all know the UK establishment are bullying cowards anyway. We just need to stand up to them, at the right moment of course. Choose your time and place, Nicola!. 🙂

    227. ronnie anderson says:

      @ bob mack Photo’s of Baboons erses, wie the relevant politicions photo’s below.

      What arse would you kiss or what erse would you kick.

      Be kind to animals week.

      If you need any more help jist call me lol.

    228. galamcennalath says:

      “Britain is turning to the private sector to prepare for Brexit, seeking to second consultants to boost a civil service with almost no experience of complex trade negotiations. …. The government is believed to have estimated that it needs between 700 and 750 extra staff to negotiate …”

      EXTRA staff

      This begs the obvious question about Scotland. How many of this massive team will be dedicated to ensuring Scotland gets what Scots want regarding the EU?

      Best guess? Bu99er all!

      I expect the Tory solution to the ‘Scottish problem’ will be that Scotland gets the same deal with the EU as the rest of the UK does.

      http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7ccfd858-41e0-11e6-b22f-79eb4891c97d.html#axzz4DZGPYWo8

    229. Lanarkist says:

      Stewartb re. Prof Evans,

      The BBC have obvious knowledge of this report.
      They applied it to most news reports according to Prof Robertson always starting bulletins with negative statements, reports and facts and reinforced them throughout the show/week. This was picked up by media and repeated endlessly as sound bites and constantly put the Yes side on the back foot having to repudiate all the other sides arguments.

      It will be used again but we have more experience now not to follow their line of argument.

      Thanks for posting!

    230. cearc says:

      The dying elephant –

      ‘The pound slumped to its weakest level since 1985 as it touched $1.30, breaching the lows seen in the immediate aftermath of the June 23 referendum. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. analysts said they now predict sterling to drop to $1.20 over the next three months.’

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-05/brexit-erodes-u-k-economic-pillars-as-property-investors-flee

    231. Dorothy Devine says:

      testing – I’m getting “your posting too quickly , slow down message”

    232. scottieDog says:

      @yesindyref
      A fixed or pegged currency is very much open to speculation but that is why the currency has to float. Also capital controls are an effective defence against currency speculation. This is what iceland has done to restore it’s economy

    233. cearc says:

      Craig Murray is a very good speaker and he can keep it going regardless of what’s thrown at him.

      He also knows a lot of stuff about the workings of UK state.

    234. Kenny says:

      … But I do agree that it would be wonderful to have a non-Scot, especially an English man or woman, heading the campaign!

      By the way, there is a Scot who is quite high up in German politics, I believe in Merkel’s party, I wonder why he is never ever mentioned.

      Do you remember the BBC specially asking North Korea their views on indyref1, because they knew they are against the UK, then boasting loudly that “only North Korea” supports yes (conveniently forgetting Iceland). I would very much like a former Norwegian or German politician or anyone suitable from Europe playing a prominent role in YES, now that YES is very much linked to staying in Europe.

    235. Breeks says:

      If political folks are allowed, then Joanna Cherry could be a dark horse as a Yes figurehead.

      Bit underkent maybe, but Joanna Cherry vs Tubaboy McDougall would have been hilarious, and Flipper Darling would have just run away.

    236. Smallaxe says:

      Thepnr & Breeks. Sorry but Annie Lennox voted no in the
      Indyref1 🙁

    237. yesindyref2 says:

      @scottieDog
      Capital controls is an interesting point. Would have been virtually impossible or at least heavily frowned on internationally if Indy Ref 1 have returned a YES, but this time, with the rUK Brexiting, is a very different situation, and one where formal currency union would be suicidal I think, except as a very short term measure – like months not years.

      Nothing to stop us having two currencies in use of course, just like we do now with the Scots notes for local currency, and the UK ones for foreign currency. A point which wasn’t made during Indy Ref 1, as wasn’t either, that we are already in a formal currency union with the UK.

    238. DerekM says:

      Dont forget our Gordon from BfS i think he should be in the top team,his experience and knowledge of the economy and business will be needed plus he knows the right people from the business world.

    239. Thepnr says:

      @scottieDog

      Any chance you get can you address my questions at 8:53. They are genuine and might be the kind of questions I can expect from the Naysayers.

    240. Glamaig says:

      @breeks

      Brilliant! Joanna Cherry is awesome. Sharp as a razor as you would expect from a QC.

    241. Meindevon says:

      Derick face Yell @ 8.39

      Unbelievable! Just gobsmacking! How can can such a…a…a man be put forward for this job! They are just laughing at us…pi@@@ing themselves at our expense.

      Please can someone put this on billboards for everyone to see how they cr@@ on us from a great height.

    242. Apollo says:

      Valerie 5 July, 2016 at 2:42 pm

      @Macart

      Just saw that Sky thing OMG!!! I heard it first, and thought it was a skit. Then watching, it was clear they had no clue they were being recorded.

      Mega scary though.

      Clarke looked as if he had enjoyed a liquid lunch.

      Liquid lunch provided by Sky News catering as not to inconvenience them by having to go out? LOL

    243. Meg merrilees says:

      Kenny @9.36 pm ‘Scot’ high up in German parliament is David Mc Allister. He was born in Germany to a Scots father. Currently MEP for Lower Saxony.

    244. The Rough Bounds says:

      If another independence referendum comes along and it’s run along the same lines as the previous one with that dreadful anodyne Yes campaign with its crap boring leaflets and yon big washed oot cloot Blair Jenkins at its helm then we may as well not bother.

      It will have to be a people’s movement to make it work. It cannot be left to dull intellectuals and politicians to put spice into the campaign. It will need people with spirit and smeddum to fire the Scots up.

      Wings over Scotland might just be the match to light the touch paper.

    245. scottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2
      Long read regarding bond market and who’s in charge of interest rate but worth the read. Need to dispell myths.
      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=7838

    246. galamcennalath says:

      cearc says:

      “The dying elephant”

      Indeed. Most people probably aren’t too concerned about economic figures. The two which will get attention are retail prices and unemployment figures. These will begin to show worsening trends as the weeks pass.

      Sad, but that is unknowingly what they voted for. Unknown to a lot of Leave voters, anyway.

    247. Thepnr says:

      @smallaxe

      Many apoligies, it seems like Aniie Lennox did indeed change her mind in the run up to the referendum and would have voted No.

      This is contrary to what her stance was in Feb 2014.

      Bowie, of course, hails from south of the border, and it would seem that most of Scotland’s music stars appear to be in favour of separation. Legendary chanteuse Annie Lennox (below, left) is one of the artists backing The National Collective – a cultural organisation supporting independence.

      “There is an opportunity for something innovative and visionary,” she says. “Scotland could have some kind of new, ethical stance and it could take on some fresh ideas. That could be amazing, really amazing.”

      https://archive.is/XiwcH

      Or what she said to the SNP in 2008 and is here on their website.

      http://104.46.54.198/media-centre/news/2008/jun/annie-lennox-backs-independence

      Shame really, wonder if like Ruth she has changed her mind again?

    248. Breeks says:

      Chilcot…. tick, tock, tick, tock…

      How do you whitewash war crimes?

      Take one Brexit, add in a sprinkle of BNP, two lumps of EDL with a light sprinkling of UKIP, then add Middle Eastern outrage, grievance and thirst for vengeance and leave to simmer…

      Very curious about what Jeremy Corbyn has planned for tomorrow too.

    249. ronnie anderson says:

      1st round of Tories voting true to the script May’s the next PM ( unelected by the Public Vote ).

    250. Thepnr says:

      @scottieDog

      I guess you can read my posts. Are you willing to help me out here and answer, even partially my questions at 8:53? Ta.

    251. Thepnr says:

      Maybe I have the wrong scottieDog and it should have been ScottieDog. Just noticed I have been talking to two different handles.

    252. yesindyref2 says:

      @scottieDog
      Yes, thanks, I’ve bookmarked it for later.

      I think my main point is that with Brexit we’re looking at a totally different situation from IR1. Then the UK was quite stable, in the EU, own currency, and a currency that had value. Never seen one put on it, and Unionists really wouldn’t ahve wanted to put anything on it “It’s not an asset to be shared”. But it is an intangible asset and for instance the name Boots is worth a lot of money.

      Salmond was like “The pound is a shared asset, and if the rUK denies us a formal currency union, then we go away with no debt”. That was really his opening shot in the pre-indy non-negotiations.Well, I did some research and calculations, and by my reckoning it was worth £50 billion to Scotland, giving it a value of £600 billion. I haven’t the slightest intention of justifying it 🙂

      However now it’s value as a Brand is less, or as a safe haven, the UK isn’t stable, it’s leaving the EU, and banks and investment are leaving it. For me, we don’t want a currency connection and risk getting dragged down, whereas before it would have been OK for a while.

    253. Joe of the Coutts says:

      Has anyone noticed that Jackie Bird has become quite subdued these last few days. She’s no longer reporting the news like a seductive welcome to the New Year!
      Wish her no harm, but something has changed.

    254. Glamaig says:

      It’s quite clear Theresa May is the anointed one – the BBC are showing flattering pictures of her.

    255. Iain More says:

      The post Brexit carnage on Markets continue

      http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-property-shares-drop-on-uncertainty-following-eu-referendum-vote-1467715870

      Is the Property bubble/Housing bubble in SE Ingerland about to burst big time?

      Meanwhile Tobacco Shares are doing rather well.

    256. Dr Jim says:

      That the Scottish parliament will be permanent

      The Smith Commission asked for it, they refused

      Wait for it, May or Leadsom to unite Britain

    257. TJenny says:

      Dorothy Devine et al – the message you’re getting is from one of the sites ‘tronic elves who’s upgrading the server, He was on Stu’s tl on Sunday night saying how quickly the comments were appearing and asking Stuey when the comments slow down. Stu replied that there’s usually a lull between 3.30am and 4 am. 🙂

    258. crazycat says:

      @ Smallaxe

      Re: Annie Lennox
      That’s what I thought; I was about to try to look it up, but you’ve saved me the effort – thanks.

    259. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Iain More.

      You typed that we wouldn’t have had an EU referendum if we had voted YES in 2014.

      I am fed up seeing on Facebook, Yessers who are typing that in IndyRef2, they will vote NO, because they don’t believe an independent Scotland’s future should be within the EU.

      My personal feeling is that a YESSER’s primary objective should be independence – anything else, be it EU membership, retention of the monarchy, our own currency, and so on, can be decided by the people of Scotland AFTER independence, when only WE will have the right to make those choices.

      Your assertion kinda defeats my argument to non-EU Yessers that WE would make that decision, once we’re independent. How can you possibly state that we wouldn’t have had an EU referendum, when it would have been up to US whether or not we had that referendum?

    260. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/t Max Keiser on Brexit now on rt

    261. The Rough Bounds at 9.57

      What a load of insulting rubbish. The campaign, hammered relentlessly by virtually all the media, doubled support for independence and nearly won (or did it actually win?).
      Probably the most successful campaign I have ever been involved in.

    262. Thepnr says:

      @crazycat

      Yeah my bad, that’s where believing what you read in the papers gets you. Though I will stick with the SNP pronouncement in 2008 of her support for Independence.

      A woman is allowed to change her mind of course as we all are. In fact that’s what we need is it not?

      The shortlist is getting shorter 🙂

    263. Jock McDonnell at 9.12

      Exactly. It’s called choosing to fight the right battles.

    264. cearc says:

      Iain More,

      ‘Meanwhile Tobacco Shares are doing rather well.’
      So I saw. Probably for the same reason that wig-makers in the City of London are doing a roaring trade!

    265. heedtracker says:

      My Slovene girlfriends boss here, interesting language use too.

      http://www.gla.ac.uk/myglasgow/news/headline_474026_en.html

      The University is determined that our voice will be heard in the discussions and negotiations that are now starting to take place. As you may have seen, Scotland’s First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon MSP, has asked me to chair a group of experts to advise the Scottish Government on securing Scotland’s relationship with the EU.”

      Securing Scotland’s relationship means membership or getting our EU citizenship back?

    266. Smallaxe says:

      Thepnr,No apology necessary,thank you for the extra info that
      you so kindly provided.I hope she is back onside next time as she could bring some of her fans with her. 🙂

    267. galamcennalath says:

      ronnie anderson says:

      “1st round of Tories voting true to the script May’s the next PM ”

      MPs want May. Wider membership want Leadsom.

      There’s a wee touch of Corbyn/Blaitites and membership/PLP there!

      Scotland Goes Pop suggesting MPs might try to manipulate the final two to be May and Gove. So when it goes to wider membership, May wins.

      Say what you like about the Tories, they can certainly better at scheming than Labour.

    268. Grouse Beater says:

      Smallaxe: “Thepnr & Breeks. Sorry but Annie Lennox voted ‘No’ in the Indyref1 🙁 “

      Sadly, true. Her annoyance took the line, I’m sick of all this ‘hate the English’ stuff. Then again, even the best singers are not known for their philosophical rationality.

    269. Smallaxe says:

      crazycat,no problem.Peace!

    270. Big Jock says:

      Anyone who is pro independence but anti EU, who suggests they will vote no because of the EU. Needs to have a reverse lobotomy. We don’t need these illogical fundamentalists in our team. Go and vote no and retain British rule. If you can’t see the difference between an independent Scotland in the EU and a dependent Scotland I’m the UK. Then Jesus Wept.

    271. call me dave says:

      The YES campaign did have some good people putting forward the independence case but were always too nice and occasionally ill prepared. I found myself watching debates and mouthing answers to unionist claims but the YES person, often an MSP, struggling to put their case effectively.

      The SNP leafleting material was not inspiring enough. In addition it was always a bit behind the curve and fighting a rearguard action as the topic(s) that were ‘hot’ had moved on.

      We need to consider a freer rein on local YES groups to react quickly to these hot topics and trust them to get out a robust response in the letter box much quicker

      *Joanna Cherry* is an excellent choice but is a working MP with many duties as have our other MPs so two years is a hard shift and may require a person who can dedicate exclusively to a YES campaign and perhaps not an SNP person at the ‘head’

      On the other side of the coin who will lead the NO campaign apart from my Scottish auntie, and certain papers.

      PS:
      Tory Vote:
      Theresa May won the support of 165 MPs—exactly half the eligible electorate.

      Andrea Leadsom finished second with 66 votes.
      Michael Gove was third on 48.
      Stephen Crabb got 34.
      Liam Fox was eliminated after receiving 16 votes.

      Crabb has chosen to drop out of the race of his own accord after finishing fourth.

      Both Crabb & Fox declared later for May.

    272. Big Jock says:

      Grouse I also thought Lennox was pro yes?

    273. Jim says:

      “Rejected petition Nicola Sturgeon should be the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

      We need strong, unifying leadership, now.
      Nicola Sturgeon has the confidence of one of the nations of Great Britain, governing with reason, strength and unity.
      ?More details

      This petition was rejected
      Why was this petition rejected?

      It’s about something that the UK Government or Parliament is not responsible for.

      We only reject petitions that don’t meet the petition standards.

      Date submitted 24 June 2016
      Get petition data (json format)”

      h__ps://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/136671
      __________________
      Enough said, lol.

    274. Valerie says:

      @BDTT

      Snap! I’ve spent the last two hours fighting this issue on FB. It’s an alleged SNP page, and it appears to be full of tinfoil hatters, talking about butter mountains.

      They could be trolls of course, but they are polluting the page, and I hate others reading it, as its the –

      Dodged a bullet getting out
      Unelected no democracy
      Austerity

      Exactly the shite you read in the Mail.

      I’ve put up my own post, and the link to Wee Bleu Book, to see if it flushes them out.

      There is work to be done on this nonsense.

    275. Big Jock says:

      My heart bleeds when I read about people making their decision about their country entirely on economics. What country can anyone name that declared independence based on their bank balance. Is Scotland so shallow that people can’t see what being a nation actually means!

    276. Valerie says:

      Annie Lennox is defo a yoon.

      Should stick to singing, rather than telling us how to vote for our imperial masters.

    277. Valerie says:

      Annie Lennox defo a yoon.

      Wanted us to love everyone, esp. our imperial masters.

    278. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      I agree with you (again!) there.

      I’m not convinced that most of those supposed “yessers” turning into nawbags because of the EUref are genuine. And the rest surely can’t be thinking very clearly.

      After all, the situation of an indy Scotland within the EU was exactly what they voted for last time!

      Furthermore, do they really believe all of a sudden that the upcoming pro-Brexit UK government, the most right-wing that we have ever had to endure, is going to do Scotland any favours? Some may be feeling a little sore at the EUref result, but are they really all of a sudden going to swallow those sugar-sweet promises and Proj. Fear Mk.3 threats from those yoon serial liars who gave us the Vow? I mean, seriously…!

      Some on the radical left have taken a very dirigiste anti-EU stance lately. I think for them it’s sour grapes after the miserable result they got in the ScotGE. But they are so miniscule in number that they are essentially irrelevant.

      It’s not even that anyone is going to lose out on anything anyway. If some feel strongly enough post-indy that we should leave the EU, they are welcome to try to raise popular support for their case.

      And crucially, it will then only be the people of Scotland who decide. What’s not to like?

    279. call me dave says:

      @Big Jock

      Hear! Hear! That is not mentioned enough in all of this on the tv or radio debates.

    280. ronnie anderson says:

      @ cearc (‘Meanwhile Tobacco Shares are doing rather well.’) Its aw that stress people smoke more.

      Kenneth Clarke will be cockahoop wie his shareholding’s in B&A tobaco.

    281. Grouse Beater says:

      Big Jock: “Grouse I also thought Lennox was pro yes?”

      She made her hostility to independence plain in interview with Kirsty Young, on Desert Island Discs.

      I’m never surprised by anti-Scot Scottish-born celebs with London agents and houses.

    282. Smallaxe says:

      If we can’t get Annie Lennox,how about Midge Ure?

    283. Macart says:

      @Thepnr

      The Fiscal Commission made a pretty route map and on the currency issue left an open door by laying out the options available. Personally I was always more in favour of a Scottish currency pegged to whatever was most favourable. How and ever I did see the sense in the Sterling zone for both economic and social reasons.

      How and ever, these days my better conciliatory nature has had a bit of a leave of absence. The establishment have pretty much kicked democracy, our democracy and soon our rights, oot the windae. We get a second shot at this? Let’s say Sterling zone would be well at the back of that list of preferred options.

    284. Alan Mackintosh says:

      @ Shrodingers Cat, re your badges, thats seems very expensive? What size are they? We in InverYES made our own and supplied loads of other groups in the Highlands. It would be much cheaper for you to get a badge machine and the blanks and make your own.

      Incidentally, InverYES never went away…

    285. Thepnr says:

      Need advice on PFI? No win no claim. have you had an injury at work, been unfairly dismissed?

      We’re here to help phone Crabb and Fox, we will be here for you.

      Promise.

    286. Iain More says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      “I am fed up seeing on Facebook, Yessers who are typing that in IndyRef2, they will vote NO, because they don’t believe an independent Scotland’s future should be within the EU.”

      I am a little fed up with it as well. Oh and I was “speculating” that we wouldn’t have had one if we had voted Yes in 2014 because I just don’t see an anti EU Party emerging in Scotland the way one emerged in England and I see that prospect as even less likely now. Well at least for the foreseeable Brian. The SNP for one wouldn’t have called one for a Holyrood election Year not unless something surprising happened.

      Oh and I think a bout of Theresa May will cure those who say they are Yessers voting Naw in Indy Ref 2 because they want out of the EU. I actually question if they are Yessers at all or ever were in the first place. Opinion in Scotland might change but that 62-38 vote in Scotland to stay in EU kind of settles EU as an issue for me for the foreseeable. I am no fan of the EU either Brian.

    287. call me dave says:

      Radio 5 panel of leave voters get free range, Scots fishing man very vocal and hard line. Phew! Break for news, wearying!! 🙁

      “Bless the working man for getting us out of the EU”

      But strangely enough not many want to press that article 50 button… we’ll press it when were good and ready!…
      were not ready yet! ….we don’t have a plan! …. 🙁

      Oh! breaking news Miss White killed off and Dr Orchid replacement for Cluedo up with the times. 🙂

    288. schrodingers cat says:

      political types can be in the running… just not snp until the snp formally announce indyref2, at which point, all snp msps,mps etc will come steaming in.

      it was alex salmond who appointed blair jenkins and fired the starting gun for yes scotland. this wont happen this time

      all of the names put forward on this thread are excellent, but there remains no method or means for anyone to elect or chose a leader for yes2scotland that the other grass roots will agree with. to think that yes pollock or wos or the yes registry can chose tommy sheridan or anyone else for that matter) to lead all of the other yes groups is a bit niave.

      no. im not sure yes scotland needs a leader, as a talking head blair jenkins wasnt much good anyway, and even if we did have a leader, that wouldnt stop the bbc and others inviting other talking heads on to their shows, same as last time. eg, we will see tommy and craig on the tv during indyref2 whether they have official positions in yes2scotland or not.

      what you can do is seek out your local yes group, then find out if there are any talking heads in your area, eg wgd etc, and ask them to endorse your local group, ie take a photo with you. in exchange, you can nominate him/her as the representative of your group.

      yesnef have chosen Billy Kay as (one of)our represetative, as such he has a position in the yes2 campaign that none of the people suggested on this thread have. He is an elected representative and can talk for, on behalf and for Yes nef.

    289. Lochside says:

      The YES movement must be mobilised to galvanise the general public. Non political leaders will appear as before…that was the beauty of the REF campaign.

      Unfortunately, Tommy Sheridan is tainted and unpopular amongst many, but he has the charisma and the oratorial ability lacking in some names previously mentioned. But a charismatic leader is essential…not a block of wood such as Blair Jenkins, ex BBC employee and likely ‘quizmaster’.

      As I said on a previous thread, mass non payment of the tv licence is a perfect vehicle to galvanise public support against the BBC and to get people out on the streets again. I sometimes despair of the reluctance on here to take direct democratic peaceful action.

      Before the REF and the big BBC demos there were weary wullies decrying public displays on here. Some folk would rather navel gaze about who or what would rule the ‘Kingdom of Scotland; (copywrite P.Peffers) rather than get out and organise for the future citizens of Scotland.

      Where is the RIC?..their mobilisation of folk in the schemes of Scotland to vote was a miracle. One that we must do again. The far right have failed in Scotland, but we must not be complacent. UKIP have fed on despair in England.

      We are bound at the present like hostages to an ugly fate, tied to England’s Brexit disaster…the only exit to Brexit is for all of Scotland’s pro Yes vote to be inspired to turn out and vote Independence. We must start our work to achieve that objective now.

    290. cearc says:

      I think that the outstanding person to head up an official Yes campaign would be Ivan McKee. He was excellent in interviews and has both the drive and organisational skills.

      I think we can all agree that the last official Yes campaign was dire and dreary.

      Nevertheless, whatever campaigns are running, the really important thing is to talk to people you know. Understand why they voted no, why they are wary and address their personal concerns.

      The thing with canvassing strangers is that they may be asking you what they think they ought to ask rather than opening up to their real fears.

      Last time round we needed to convert 2 people each. This time, not even one each. It is the people you know, family, friends, workmates and neighbours where you can be most effective.

    291. Thepnr says:

      @McCart

      I read the Fiscal Commission report and agreed that sharing the pound was the best option for an Independent Scotland.

      I believed this as I didn’t want to hurt rUK after we left, it was definitely better for rUK. Common sense tells you that, well it does me.

      Now the gloves have to be off and we do what is best in order that Scotland becomes Independent. We no longer need to be nice. If rUK refuse anything, then fine. Be it on your own head. I know what the result of that will be.

      Though right now digging your own economic grave seems to be a pastime of their voters and political elite. They’ve made their bed.

    292. schrodingers cat says:

      as far as the other areas that yes scotland were tasked with in indyref1, ie leaflets, literature and merchandise… wos readers could (and did) a far better job

    293. stonefree says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland 7:12 pm

      ” … legal advice is that article 50 can be invoked under royal prerogative
      Ironic really, a monarchical constitutional relic invoked to force through a popular plebiscite”

      Even More so as Heath took the UK into the EEC via Royal Prerogative

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      So the Unionists on the Herald coming out with the Myths.

      Myth 1 – Scotland will have to make up the £10 billion shortage once the UK leaves, or the EU won’t give us our funding because of it. From europa.eu about the UK rebate, which would be the same mechanism:

      The cost of the UK rebate is divided among EU member countries in proportion to the share they contribute to the EU’s GNI. However, since 2002 this has been limited to 25% of its normal value for Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Sweden, who considered their relative contributions to the budget to be too high. This cost is shared by the other 22 EU members.

      http://ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/budg_system/financing/fin_en.cfm

      Scotland would of course as a full EU member be entitled to all the funds available to any member state – which currently includes the UK, whether it takes them up or not.

      (yeah “you are posting too quickly, slow down”)

    295. Grouse Beater says:

      Smallaxe: “If we can’t get Annie Lennox, how about Midge Ure?”

      I suspect Ure is a quiet Yes. We didn’t even get Rod Stewart. “I hope we snub independence.” But we did get Gerard Butler and Connery and me – good Embra chaps.

      The list English lickspittle was endless; The loudest calls for Scotland to stay came from 200 of them including Mick Jagger, Paul McCartney, Judi Dench, Simon Cowell, Helena Bonham Carter, Steve Coogan, Dominic West and Patrick Stewart, all signed a letter in August 2014 addressed to “Dear Voters of Scotland” that said how much they valued “our bonds of citizenship with you.”

      I trust they are busy now applying for dual citizenship with whatever country they are currently domiciled.

    296. Marcia says:

      cearc

      He might be busy being the MSP for Provan but a good name for the frame. What was lacking the last time was a group for Pensioners. This is the section of the population that voted No because of the scare stories being peddled in the newspapers/BBC. We need a dedicated group to win over the pensioners.

    297. Grouse Beater says:

      How about Run Rig’s Donnie Munro? – good Highlander and Gael – stood as Labour MP.

      Has he been stunned into recanting, and now votes Yes to democracy reinstated in his own land?

      If not, I might want back that expensive gift I gave him.

    298. Macart says:

      I see Ms May is the favourite to inherit the poison chalice. Her standout difference from the rest? She’s not a raving loon, or on the make for a higher profile or pay rise. Ms May is dangerous because she is intelligent and an ideologist. She is a believer.

      What she will do with a British Bill of Rights we want no part of. That is one politician who WILL finish what Thatcher started.

    299. cearc says:

      For debunking EU myths this must be the go to site,

      https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/

      Goodness only knows how it has managed to keep such a low profile! It is all there, all the nonsense press reports debunked. Dig around in it.

    300. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Cearc, Ivan is an MSP, so prob a bit pre-occupied

    301. Macart says:

      @Thepnr

      That’s pretty much my feeling.

    302. Big Jock says:

      There are people like my boss in Scotland. Raging after England voted out. Was signing up for the SNP and indi. Then comes in on Monday and says we should wait and see. People like him keep trying to change a country that doesn’t want to follow Scotland’s direction.

      He can’t see that he will only get what he wants in an independent Scotland. All this stick together crap. Stick together on England’s terms. 56 SNP Mps and a Tory Government. 62% Eu and taken out anyway.

      The next indi campaign needs to force the no side to explain what Scottish voters get in the Union. In other words what is the point.

    303. Onwards says:

      Iain More says:
      5 July, 2016 at 11:06 pm
      @Brian Doonthetoon

      >“I am fed up seeing on Facebook, Yessers who are typing that in IndyRef2, they will vote NO, because they don’t believe an independent Scotland’s future should be within the EU.”
      ————–

      I’ve seen that too, and I reckon half of them are fake accounts stirring it up.
      It’s hard to believe that any YES voter in 2014 would end up voting for Scotland as a devolved region in the UK, than as a nation state in Europe, if that was the choice.
      The amount of powers we would have as a real country is far greater overall.

    304. Grouse Beater says:

      We got Wullie the gamekeeper in The Simpsons.

      Don’t you remember?

      He ripped off his shirt to reveal the words “Aye or Die” on his chest.

      “That’s no a tattoo. It’s a birthmark!”

      We got all the ‘A’ listers, Brosnan too: “If that’s what they want, I wish them well. The world will turn the same way with independence,” Ireland-born Pierce Brosnan, whose father was Scottish, told The Hollywood Reporter.

    305. Smallaxe says:

      Grouse Beater,I just checked and Midge was angry at the fact
      that he couldn’t vote in the last one because he has lived
      in England since 1977.Keep writing those poetic essays of your’s I so much enjoy:-) Peace

    306. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      stonefree @ 23:13,

      Not sure what your point was there.

      So the same creaky old mechanism was used previously, but are you implying that there wasn’t a majority in WM willing to support the result of the referendum then? I don’t recall that being an issue. (Nor indeed after Wilson’s re-referendum.)

      Unlike now.

    307. carjamtic says:

      Scotland’s economic management has always been secondary school to UK interests,time and again Scotland’s best opportunities for economic development have been scuppered by UK interests or simply neglected by Westminster.

      Silicon Glen,North Sea Oil and the sacrifice of the Scottish Fishing Industry (shakes head at hypocritical Yoons/BBC) all seemed as ‘acceptable sacrifices’ by the Yoons to control the rise of UK inflation.

      indyref 2

      Discover Scotland – Discover Yes

      Yes : It’s is in your Best Interest

      😉

    308. yesindyref2 says:

      @cearc
      Great find (the europa blog). Somehing I found out by accident when finding it a lot easier to file my accounts is that there is an EU Directive about micro-entities, to make it easier for us. In fairness the UK has I think implemented it early, but it does originate from the EU. So much for the EU bureaucracy and red tape. Yes there’s too uch of it, but they do realise that in “the EU”.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/237045/bis-13-1124-simpler-financial-reporting-for-micro-entities.pdf

    309. Grouse Beater says:

      Smallaxe: “Keep writing those poetic essays of your’s I so much enjoy. Peace”

      It matters to me that it matters to others. Thanks. 🙂

    310. Onwards says:

      Thepnr says:
      5 July, 2016 at 4:18 pm

      ..if rUK wishes to keep free trade agreements by joining the EEA as it will also have to accept free movement of people..

      ———–

      That’s the one area I reckon could hurt the chances of a second referendum.
      If the UK joins the EEA, and accepts full freedom of movement and pays the full price, then UKIP voters will be furious, but for many it will be seen as an acceptable compromise.
      People will have kept the “4 EU freedoms”, and could still say they were part of Europe, politically speaking.

      It all depends on who wins the Tory leadership contest. If it is Andrea Leadsom who dubs herself the new Thatcher, then that isn’t likely. But the financial industry will be screwed without their passporting rights.

      If Theresa May wins then I reckon she will accept membership of the EEA, and accept full freedom of movement, much to UKIPs disgust. The EU won’t budge on freedom of movement as a matter of principle, especially after Nigel Farage got everyone’s backs up. It will be “take it or leave it.”, even if it costs their economies millions. They won’t be seen to back down.

      If we are faced with an isolationist UK, and years of negotiations and uncertainty under the “new Thatcher”, then I reckon we could win a snap referendum.

      But if we end up in the EEA with freedom of movement, then many Remain voters would be happy enough with that.
      I think the risk of losing Scotland will be enough to convince many Tories to sign up for the EEA, even if the EU strikes a very hard bargain and we end up paying more than we currently do.

      If the EU stands firm, they have the UK government over a barrel.

    311. cearc says:

      Marccia,

      I know Ivan’s an MSP now but I reckon he would still manage to head up, get the right people in to do the job etc.

      You are quite right about older voters. I think it is still more a matter of person to person. Chats at the lunch club etc. which I know you did. (OMG, I’m going to have more of those awful lunches as well!) It is very much a matter of having the right info for the person.

      New currency? We all coped with decimalisation didn’t we? A much bigger change than to a Scotd £/merk/groat.

      Pensions? How long will the triple lock last with inflation and a depression? Look at what other EU pensioners get.

    312. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Socrates MacSporran 11-51 am ( Brian McClair )

    313. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Iain More.

      Contrary to what you may have inferred, I am not anti-EU. When the subject came up in conversation at work or wherever, prior to the vote, if I was asked “Why?” I was in favour of remain, I replied “Workers’ rights”, in particular the TUPE Regulations.

      It’s personal. If not for the TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment) regulations, I would not be working for the Uni but would have been transferred to the NHS.

      The TUPE regulations in the UK were as a result of an EU Directive – each member state applied them in slightly different ways, within their own legal system.

      When we were told that there was a proposal to transfer us under TUPE, we didn’t have a clue what TUPE meant – but we learnt. And, after arming ourselves with the regulations, we were able to fight, successfully, after more than a year, against the transfer.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_Undertakings_(Protection_of_Employment)_Regulations_2006

      Amended in 2014:-

      http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/t/r/9908-2901767-TSO-ACAS-TUPE_is_changing-ACCESSIBLE.pdf

      The NHS THOUGHT they knew about TUPE, because they had gone through two TUPE transfers, where porters, laundry staff and kitchen staff, having been previously “outsourced” (privatised), were being brought back “in house”. The situation there was different to ours, because the workers involved in those transfers WANTED to go back to being NHS employees – we didn’t.

      It was quite surprising to find out how ignorant the NHS was regarding what they could and couldn’t do with us. In the end, after around 15 months, they threw in the towel, because we were going to be too much hassle.

      Our employment with the Uni has carried on amicably, possibly due to the retiral of the guy who came up with the idea of the transfer in the first place.

      Yes, the EU setup has faults but ‘workers’ rights’ has always been a high priority.

    314. Thepnr says:

      Whats the difference between anger and passion. Both will make you shout out loud. What if though you are both angry and passionate?

      Well you should shout out loud anyway. Before 2014 I knew I was passionate. Now I’m angry as well, their is a massive injustice in our society that the majority just accept.

      Those voters, shrug their shoulders and say “ah well it’s not me”.

      These people are idiots, of course it’s them and their families. Say no more Tory austerity, no more fake Labour platitudes. Get shot of the lot of the lying blanks.

      I’m trying to remember the story, the one about someone knocking on your door. I’m doing this without looking up google. What I can remember is that it is to do with standing together with those that may be persecuted before they, the persecutors come knocking on your door.

      Turning your back is not an option, ever. Standing up for yourself and having the confidence to face the future is the only way. Don’t allow a Proud Scot But, newspaper or BBC lackey to ever tell you otherwise.

      Spread the word, it is up to you reading here. Tough but a fact.

    315. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Onwards.

      You typed,
      “I’ve seen that too, and I reckon half of them are fake accounts stirring it up.”

      But the thing that gets me is that there are a fair number of them that I know from the campaign in 2014, who were YESSERS!

      ACT 1: Independence.

      ACT 2: Sort everything else out.

      WHY do they not get it?

    316. Kenny says:

      Personally, I would be happy for Blair Jenkins to be reused for the pensioners’ vote. He is the type that would appeal to pensioners, I think. But not for heading anything and certainly not for going up against Mouthie Ruthie on TV.

      If Michelle Thomson were not an MP I would suggest here as well as a trustable, down-to-earth and financially literate person for the pensioners’ vote. The YES movement needs its own Pensions Tsar (Pensions Thane?) to deal with this issue and to have all the arguments and quotes on one A4 sized piece of paper, ready to bring out whenever Gordon Broon is wheeled out to frighten pensioners and the sick with his usual lies.

      Having a feeble “official” campaign at the start was actually a godsend for the YES movement. Because it meant everyone had to do it themselves — and then nobody was going back in the box after 18 September. So in that way hurrah for Blair Jenkins. Maybe he was then a “plant”, because life has an ironic way of throwing things up the opposite way when plotters plot…

      I’m wondering if Judy Murray might be up for a bit of politics?

      Judy is a feisty woman and I am reminded of the mother of the Maleeva tennis sisters, Yulia Berberian, who got active in Bulgarian politics when they overthrew their Communist overlords (Tory economic policies in Scotland have always been a bit like Communist in Eastern Europe).

      [* Ma Maleeva once jumped into the stands to bash a journalists, if I recall… mmmm…..]

    317. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 22:27,

      [This is a partial re-post, since the first version went AWOL somehow.]

      We agree (again!) about that.

      Like others, I have my suspicions about most of these self-declared “yessers” who have supposedly turned into nawbags because of the EUref. And any genuine ones surely aren’t thinking very clearly.

      After all, an independent Scotland within the EU was exactly what they were happy to vote for last time.

      Post-independence, if they really feel strongly about any particular issue, they can always seek to persuade others of their case, and it will be the people of Scotland alone who will decide. So what’s not to like…?

    318. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Breeks.

      I thought I posted this earlier but can’t see it. Here’s the proof re Brian Cox, from September 2014.

      http://imgur.com/a/2ySwt

    319. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Breeks.

      I thought I posted this earlier but can’t see it. Here’s the proof re Brian Cox and his “EH!” badge, from September 2014.

      http://imgur.com/a/2ySwt

    320. Thepnr says:

      @Onwards

      No matter who becomes Prime Minister. The EU already have the UK over a barrel in negotiations. They just need to mention Scotland and the rUK negotiating teams arses will collapse.

      This is the end game and the Tories are fecked whatever they chose.

    321. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      (Apologies for the almost duplicate post. My first one just disappeared and my second didn’t appear when I submitted so I added to the comment. Then, after 5 minutes, posts 2 and 3 appeared together.)

      See that wordpress? Hingin’s too good for them. What they need is a good kick up the €r$€!

    322. manandboy says:

      In 2014 the pensioners were warned of the threat to their pensions if they voted Yes.
      In 2016, only by voting Yes in Indy2, will they AVOID the threat to their pensions.
      A game changer at a stroke.

    323. call me dave says:

      Blair and all those responsible for “lies and failures” over Iraq war will be held to account, promises Salmond

      http://archive.is/dYMzL

      —————————————————————
      Moore: UK Government should copy Sturgeon’s Brexit panel

      Whitehall’s “bandwidth” is remarkably narrow, he says.

      http://archive.is/AdalM

    324. manandboy says:

      Max Keiser reporting that the Hedge Funds were manipulating the bookies odds before the vote, so as to make it appear that Remain were in the lead. All the while, in the markets, the hedge fund managers were piling their money on Leave to win big time. One guy made £200 million on the Leave result.
      Cameron failed to check the markets and ended up a big time loser. Check Max out and hear it for yourself – I don’t expect anyone to believe my account of it.

    325. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      After all, an independent Scotland within the EU was exactly what they were happy to vote for last time.

      That wasn’t on the ballot paper, though. Even though I never believed there would be other referendums about the monarchy, EU, etc, there was at least a theoretical chance there could be.

      If the question this time round mentions the EU, then the “Act 2” referred to by Brian Doonthetoon is explicitly not going to happen (not in the short term, anyway).

    326. TJenny says:

      Robert J Sutherland – ‘After all, an independent Scotland within the EU was exactly what they were happy to vote for last time.’

      Playing Devil’s Advocate here, last time the world and his wife, inc EU, were saying that we’d have to go to the back of the queue for years to join the EU, so, when you think of it, their reasoning may not be quite so inconsistent as it appears. Not being accepted into the EU may actually have been why they voted Yes, and why they’ll vote No next time.

    327. manandboy says:

      As things stand with the politicians, who is running the UK right now -the Civil Service?

    328. manandboy says:

      Keiser Report: Oh my God, Brexit.

      Max K says that censorship in the UK is the strictest in the world, hence the reason why US TV doesn’t report from inside the UK. BTW, Brexit is the biggest news story in America and everyone is talking about it.

    329. Valerie says:

      @call me Dave

      Many in this country just have no idea how well organised our gov’t is. It’s very evident that as soon as the result was known, SNP pulled out their rehearsed and debugged Brexit plan.

      The clues were there weeks ago, at debates, SNP would always get in a warning, if we leave, xyz…

      I believe the group down in WM do that kind of debate, picking holes in intended approaches, devils advocate etc. It’s how teams are cohesive and learn about each others strengths and weaknesses.

      Since Brexit, quite a few o f the SNP big hitters are not in the house, and some of the back benches are getting their shot, quite nervy, but reading their script.

      I see Tommy Sheppard was attending some progressive alliance in Pimlico tonight as a speaker.

      They love our guys down there!

    330. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May says that she will withdraw British citizenship from Scotland if Scots become Independent

      Well, Yeah, because we’d be Scotland and still European

      Although kinda gives a lie to the idea that England did not want us or them to be Furriners

      She’s showing her hand a bit early though eh for the next Referendum “You’ll all be frisked at the Scottish border, especially pensioners” they scare easier

      Any passport designers out there?

    331. crazycat says:

      @ manandboy

      Belgium was run for about two years by its civil service when the politicians couldn’t agree on a government; it managed perfectly well, I believe.

    332. Valerie says:

      @manandboy

      I believe you! I have read that private polling was flawed, and put Remain in the lead. Indicators were adjusted, and we got Osborne and his Armageddon budget.

      As we know, threats don’t always work.

      However, I’ve said all along, Cameron has a nerve to say Corbyn didn’t campaign hard enough, as Cameron himself was shit, and wouldn’t debate. He was very complacent.

      Cameron will only be remembered for this Brexit legacy, and well deserved for the smug pig fiddler.

    333. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Valerie.

      I concur. Two models were in place; a remain outcome and a leave outcome. On the Friday, the leave outcome model was bowled. Hence Nicola being able to name members of the expert panel so quickly. The trip to Brussels was put in place. All had been arranged, probably months beforehand.

      I’m thinking Scotland is in safe hands…

    334. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Should the three wise men not be under arrest for destabilising the country. I am sure in more enlightened times they would be up against a wall.

    335. Dr Jim says:

      I have a bad arm so I can’t throw Annie Lennox a long way but I’ll kick her if you like
      “I’m so lucky I have a talent” she tells everyone who will listen, or even if they won’t
      Me, I’m still waiting to hear it

      #notbitter

    336. Valerie says:

      @Dr Jim

      There’s a great campaign, a snazzy Scottish passport to a new future, with all the new opportunities for this country when you open it.

      What a threat to withdraw citizenship from a dying, shrinking Britnat empire. Boo boo 🙂

    337. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat,

      It’s generally the Unionists who deploy the “divide & conquer” strategy, so all the more strange to use that tactic on ourselves!

      The goal is to maximise the “yes” vote in indyref2. To indulge in any attempt to appease one special-interest group or another is plain electoral suicide. One of the errors last time I believe was the SNP White Paper, which very laudable as it was, merely gave the opposition more issues to pick at. The whole point the next time should be first indy, then we begin afresh. A “clean sheet” election for a new parliament and government between whichever groupings care to put their case to the people.

      Remaining in the EU was implicit in the last referendum but a significant factor nonetheless (hence the big row about eg. Dimbledum’s attempt to rewrite history “on the fly” in QT), so it’s not correct to claim that the issue somehow wasn’t out there.

    338. Onwards says:

      Thepnr says:
      6 July, 2016 at 12:13 am
      @Onwards

      No matter who becomes Prime Minister. The EU already have the UK over a barrel in negotiations. They just need to mention Scotland and the rUK negotiating teams arses will collapse.

      This is the end game and the Tories are fecked whatever they chose.
      —————–

      Yeah, that’s a good point. Pay the full price, or Scotland will be welcomed with open arms..

      But lobbying from the city of London will over-ride anything else though. That’s what they care about most.
      And the EU will know this. Paris and Frankfurt are waiting to cash in..

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-explainer-idUKKCN0ZL0WY

      It would make me laugh if the EU demanded a higher price than we currently pay to access the single market.
      And the Tories had to bend over and take it. I think there is a very good reason that Boris wanted nothing to do with it.

      There was a real arrogance in Brexiters that the UK would call all the shots in negotiations. They have another thing coming.
      I reckon the mood in Europe will be: “Here is the deal. No bargaining. Take it or leave it.”

    339. Smallaxe says:

      Round and round the rugged rocks the rabid Ruthie ran
      if you can tell me how big an erse that is I’ll call you a clever man.

      O/T: To all who wished me well in my illness,here is an update. I had a CT scan on the 6th of June and go in today for
      an MRI, if all goes well I’ll be going in for surgery on the 18th of this month.I would defy anyone to say that this is not
      excellent service from the SNHS.Peace & Love to all Wingers.
      Goodnight.

    340. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      TJenny,
      I see what you’re saying, and there could be a grain of truth in it, but I feel that is nonetheless stretching things somewhat. No-one on the “yes” side (that I’m aware of anyway) was publicly advocating an EU exit, after all, and the indy campaign was very much focussed on the diametrically opposite tack: discrediting the propaganda of the likes or Marr and Barroso. (Refer to the Little Blue Book)

      It’s consequently accepted that the main impact of the EU issue was precisely the reverse of your proposition, ie. that many voted “no” out of (a false) fear that Scotland would be blocked from continued EU membership. It is the very reversal of that situation by the UK Brexiteers that has brought many of those former “no” voters into the indy fold, and given the indy campaign a massive boost now.

    341. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      I’ve just had a draft half-post disappear, so it may turn up earlier than I intended – it should be ignored. This is what I meant to say:

      I’m not clear whether you regard it as “appeasing a special-interest group” to mention the EU in an IndyRef2 question, or to leave it out! It seems to me that the best way to maximize the Yes vote is to have as few constraints and specifications as possible. I hope that is what you think too.

      I didn’t claim that the issue was not “out there” last time – perhaps you weren’t referring to me – of course it was, but every time anyone came into our Yes shop and expressed reservations about NATO, or the Queen, or the EU, we were able to tell them that this could be dealt with later. If the ballot question is too specific, we will not be able to do that again.

    342. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi manandboy.

      You typed,
      “As things stand with the politicians, who is running the UK right now -the Civil Service?”

      That’s always the case. For the first two years of a parliament, the ministers are getting their feet under the table. The civil service keeps the country up and running.

      For the last two years of a parliament, the ministers are thinking about the upcoming general election. The civil service are running the country.

      The civil service has the duty to stop the ministers doing anything rash, in that middle year, when the ministers have time on their hands.

      I thank “Yes Minister” for explaining this to me.

    343. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      Tommy Sheridan/Solidarity are opposed to EU membership; I have no idea how much they mentioned that during Indy Ref, but in the June 2014 European Parliament election, Solidarity was part of the No2EU alliance (they got 0.5% of the vote), a mere 3 months before the referendum.

    344. Swami Backverandah says:

      O/T.
      I’ve just seen a program from OZ TV called “Foreign Correspondent” which has a pretty fair rating as comment on politics. It was a pre-Chilcot feature and interviewed among others none other than John McTurpid.
      He overwhelmingly stuck to his master Blair’s line “Nothing to see here, move along”.
      It explains him totally.
      He’s afraid.

    345. Macart says:

      @smallaxe

      All the best with that smallaxe.

    346. Smallaxe says:

      @ Macart, thanks my friend. 🙂 Peace.

    347. Breeks says:

      Fingers crossed Smallaxe.

    348. Smallaxe says:

      @ Breeks, I see I am not the only early riser.Thank you.Peace.
      🙂

    349. Macart says:

      This is a hoot.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/canadian-newspaper-editorial-calls-for-nicola-sturgeon-to-take-charge-of-the-uk.19618

      This, not so much.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/chilcot-report-will-be-just-the-start-insists-alex-salmond.19656

      My own prediction? Probably not a day of jail time will be served, but I suspect the report will be critical enough to poison his personal legacy and may well provide grounds for years of running court battles. It may well also prove the last straw for Labour’s back which isolates the once prevalent Blairite power structure and splits their party.

      Needless to say, the fallout will have ramifications for years to come.

    350. ewen says:

      An article from the listener popped up in my news aggregator.

      http://archive.is/8aBv0

      Interesting article but what has incensed me is the unreconstructed unionist Tosh btl. Trouble is, you have to register to comment

    351. scottieDog says:

      @Thepnr
      Sorry didn’t see your questions earlier. Well the answer about tax is technically no. We don’t need to tax. The government of the uk doesn’t need to issue debt either and only really did that after the bank of england was formed. Tax does do two useful things.
      1. It forces the population to use the currency of choice
      2. It allows government to take the heat out of the economy when there is a threat of inflation.

      The mainstream obsess with inflation but that won’t happen until you are beyond full employment and the economy is at max output and you still increase the money supply.
      We are obviously no where near full employment

      Tax

    352. scottieDog says:

      Sorry should have said we don’t need to tax to fund government spending.

    353. scottieDog says:

      @Thepnr
      Here’s a good link about tax..
      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9281

    354. rongorongo says:

      This Venn diagram by Quantian explains why Scotland needs to become independent as an immediate results of Brexit, better than anything else I have seen:
      http://www.vox.com/2016/7/5/12098156/brexit-eu-britain-venn-diagram
      – Westminster is seeking to satisfy 3 basic conditions: Don’t crash the economy, Keep the leave voters happy and Keep the EU states happy. There are various strategies they can adopt that satisfy 2 of these conditions – but none that meet all 3. Impossible bind.

    355. Undeadshuan says:

      With regards to yes voters who woupd vote no in indyref2.

      How many people who voted remain in eu ref would now vote yes. After all result was 62 remain 38 leave for eu ref. that result or even near it would be conclusive for indyref2.

      Its also the underlying racism and lurch further right, with loss of serviced that scares no voters from last ref now.

      Maybe we should highlight dangers of continuing as part of UK this time.

      I

    356. Undeadshaun says:

      Can we also not turn arguments around such as remaining in UK…

      Pensions, NHS, workers rights, disability rights, environmental protection,,etc are not safe and will be at risk.

      The pound is now at lowest since 1985, so not as attractive now.

    357. Smallaxe says:

      @ Undeadshaun,spot on,these details could fit on a small card
      possibly with more on the other side of the card,proof etc.

    358. Lollysmum says:

      Grouse Beater & others
      Think you might be right about Midge Ure being a quiet Yes. He sang ‘A man’s a man for a’ that’ just 5 days ago at State Opening of the Scottish Parliament.

    359. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat @ 1:30, 06.July,

      Yes, we seem to agree about that.

      (And anyway, facts on the ground from rUK Brexit may speak for themselves. I see eg. that the pound has just taken another slip down to another record low. It may well not be last.)

    360. Ken500 says:

      Blair can be bankrupted. He can be sued. The legal firm who bankrupted the suspected Omaga bombers is waiting to sue Blair.

      The legal firm (and others) that Nick Clegg’s Spanish wife works for is suing Westminster Gov about the legality of the EU Referendum (and the position of migrants?). They might take it to the European Court at The Hague. Human rights – re free movement etc. The legality of the EU Referendum, etc. Westminster would have to justice it’s actions in Court. It is being sued and could be made to pay compensation etc for taking the majority people out of the EU and damaging the economy. Not letting EU citizens vote. Non taxation without representation. Democracy and equality.

      Sanctioning vulnerable people and starving them to death at home and away, Allowing illegal tax evasion and not upholding the Law.

      People in Scotland were lied to by Westminster Unionist politicians in the IndyRef1. Vote NO to remain in the EU get more powers. The VOW FFA, Home Rule Federalism. All reneged upon. Wrstminster secrecy and lies. Committing crimes and hiding it under the Offivial Secrets Act. Unionist lying and mismanaging taxpayers money against the majority interest

      In or out of the EU (better in) Scotland is better out off out the UK Union and running it’s own economy. Westminster mismanagement is ruining the Scottish economy, with policies the majority of people in Scotland do not vote for or want. The SNP Gov is the only one that can protect Scotland. It is doing everything to protect Scotland from Westminster Unionist aggression and mismanagement. That is why everyone in Scotland should vote SNP/SNP. Westminster takes £Billions out of Scotland which could be better spent. Taxes the Oil sector at 60/80%.

      Many people on the Left do not support EU membership making false claims about EU membership but they are not considering the wider advantages.

      Many people (on the Left) blame the EU for economic conditions in the UK and economic policies which are the responsibility of the UK Gov. The migration crisis in Europe is caused by illegal wars in the Middle East. Westminster policy not the EU.The EU did not bomb the Middle East to bits.

      UK/US foreign policies and lies caused the migration crisis in Europe. The EU countries have to try and sort out the mess, It cost them money and funds. Without the illegal Wars there would not be such a migration, or free movement of people in Europe. The migrants eho come to the UK work and pay their taxes and contribute. The numbers are not responsible for the economic problems (unemployment etc).

      The UK has 10% migration, on average. Germany has 20% migrant workers. Has a higher pop 80million. Germany is in surplus and has less debt, lower unemployment and an extremely successful country. So are most of the EU (eurozone) countries. The population is falling in most EU countries (without migration). Scotland is half empty. Depopulated by Westminster centralist policies, secrecy and lies, which has damaged the Scottish economy and illegally taken £Billions out of Scotland imposing policies that the majority in Scotland do not want. Causing food banks and unnecessarily hardship and stress on people’s lives. Vulnerable worried, cold, hungry people do not sleep, get sick and are stressed and unhappy.

      Westminster Unionists caused the illegal war. Labour and Tories knew it was lies. The lies to go to War. The ridiculous 45mins claim. Impossible. That a weapon would target Cyprus in 45mins. The rest of the lies which M15/CIA knew were untrue, a fantasy and told Blair/Bush and their associates. The War cause devastation and killed and maimed millions of innocent people. Millions marched against it all over the world. Everyone knew it was wrong and totally against International Laws.

      The West is still illegally taking Iraq’s Oil reserves and not reconstructing Iraq. It is a disgrace what the UK/US (France) has done in the Middle East. Supporting apartheid States and absolute Despot monarchies. Not the rights of people.

      The Trade Unions and Corbyn (the Left) do not support the EU. The do not appreciate the benefits which cost nothing. The contribution comes back in CAP payments, Grants and shared Defence costs. The Trade Union leaders do not support the EU because they believe it usurps their power. The EU has good social and employment Laws maternity leave and working hours directives and human rights etc. Better than the UK Gov. Trade Union leaders (and some ignorant members) resent the EU because it takes away their powers of control. Many Trade Unions (leaders) fight among themselves instead of coming to an amicable agreement to support the economy,

      The EU is only a cause for good. To stop starvation and wars. In or out of the EU, Scotland would be better of out of the UK Union which has never treated Scotland equally, under the terms of settlement but has damaged the Scottish economy with Westminster secrecy and lies. Westminster keeps it’s crimes hidden under the Official Secrets Act and controls the Press.

      The Brexit campaign was instigated to allow Westminster politicians and their associates to comtinue illegal tax evade. The EU is going to clamp down on tax havens and stop illegal tax evasion. The UK Gov supports and funds tax havens, which damage the world economy. London based Banks illegally launder money and damage the financial sector.

    361. starlaw says:

      Note to Theresa May
      We Scots are not British Citizens. We are UK subjects, and the idea of a Scottish Nation is to do exactly what you are threatening. Looking forward to having a Euro passport with Scotland stamped on the front

    362. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Sorry, that last sentence in my previous posting should read “It may well not be the last.”

      o/t If there’s anything to be learnt from the imminent Chilcot Report, it is surely that Scotland should have its own foreign policy as a sovereign nation. Something not available with “devo-max” or “federalisation”.

    363. Marie Clark says:

      Smallaxe, I wish you well with your CT and MRI scans. I hope that you will get the results that you hope for.

      I’ll be thinking of you. Good luck.

    364. Inkall says:

      @Undeadshaun

      No doubt saying such things would result in accusations of fearmongering, also hypocrisy over everything Yes said about Project Fear.

      That said the “positive campaign” wasn’t enough last time perhaps some well referenced dangers are needed.

    365. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tea Jenny thanks for that! I was beginning to think I had done something very wrong and a many wi’ a hammer was on his way to my door!

      I would absolutely love Paul Kavanagh to have a most prominent position in the YES campaign – sharp dude!

      I don’t want distorting bleeding, heart, hand wringing ,apologetic nonentities anywhere near it.

      I want BITE and no just ankles.

      Re Ruth , I did try to post this earlier and when it didn’t turn up I thought I had fallen foul of some blog rule , so this time I’ll just give you Wilson Keppel and Betty , youtube and sand dance – seek and search.

      To all those with health troubles ,may they ease and fade away.

    366. Smallaxe says:

      @ Marie Clark, many thanks Marie for your good wishes:-)
      Peace.

    367. Breeks says:

      @ Robert Sutherland 8:17

      YES! What a massive global ramification contained in such a small sentence.

      If anything illustrates how illogical our UK union is, it is surely that Scotland, with a proven track record of moral acumen and rational sense of level headed responsibility is currently denied its own foreign policy.

      The canny Nation that cannae speak for itself on the world stage.

    368. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 6 July, 2016 at 12:01 am:

      ” … I’m trying to remember the story, the one about someone knocking on your door. I’m doing this without looking up google.”

      The Quotation you seek is, I believe, this one, Thepnr.:-


      “First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me – and there was no one left to speak out for me.”

      .

      (Pastor Niemoller, Nazi victim.)

    369. Ruby says:

      Dr Jim says:
      6 July, 2016 at 12:53 am

      Theresa May says that she will withdraw British citizenship from Scotland if Scots become Independent

      Ruby replies

      Oh dear thats bad news for Gove, Liam Fox, Andrew Marr, Da Costa, Andrew Neil etc etc.

      What about dual British/Scottish nationality will that also be a no no? Will J K Rowling have to decide if she will be Scottish or British?

      I think Theresa May might be completely mad!

    370. Ken500 says:

      Posts often do nit appear or appear late etc.Posting ‘too quick’ messages. No accessibility etc (Internet connection). It happens to everyone. It is because of the site’s popularity. People trying to access at peak times.

      Thank you RevStu for and Wings for all you do. . Keeping people sane Thanks for ever. For holding the criminals to account. Holding their feet to the fire and roasting them. Calling them out. You are an honourable good person. Thanks a Billion. Thanks for everything. You make a difference.

      Thanks to Nicola, Alex & Co. SNP members and supporters. Thank you all for everything you do. Helping other people and the vulnerable. Protecting the people of Scotland. Support for IndyRef2.is growing,

    371. Ruby says:

      What’s the big deal about British citizenship?

      Was it not the case that every other country that became independent from Britain was allowed British citizenship?
      Weird that she will deny Scots British citizenship!

      What about all these Scots in Corby? Will they all be deported?

      Perhaps they could just apply for British citizenship which I understand is pretty easy to obtain all you have to do is be able to sing ‘God save the Queen’ and know where Santa comes from and hey presto you are British. You also need to do an English test but if you can always send a friend to do that for you.

      What will she do to replace all these Scots who work in England? Will she bring in people from the third world? Doesn’t she know that people in England do not like foreigners and Scots are not as foreign as people from outwith the British Isles.

      Ofcourse the RUK might have to accept a trade deal that involves freedom of movement which would mean she couldn’t deport Gove, Laim Fox, Andrew Marr, Da Costa etc etc.

      What is this all about is she an out and out racist or is she concerned about having to pay iScots pensioners a heating allowance. Poor old Ian Davidson was having nightmares about the idea of Westminster having to pay pensioners in iScotland a heating allowance.

    372. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      “Scotland should have its own foreign policy as a sovereign nation. Something not available with “devo-max” or “federalisation”.”

      I agree completely.

      There is an argument that DM gives a half way house which would prove that we ‘could do it’ and would lead to full Indy. Perhaps, but I think it’s hypothetical because WM will never allow DM.

      Look at the evidence, look at the way WM approaches constitutional change – as little as it can get away with. PR for WM was a joke. They almost lost IndyRef and SmithLite was their solution. DM is beyond their comfort zone.

      You could say EURef has been a step too far. Just look what it’s doing to WM.

      From a Scottish perspective DM gives powers, but still leaves us with burdens. Defence and debt repayment costs which would continue as a massive strain on our budget.

      Full Indy and we are far more economically viable.

      However, as you point out, bean counting isn’t in the same life and dead league as war and peace. Greater England does like to get into scraps. Scotland is best out of it.

    373. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Starlaw, just a wee amendment ala Mr Peffers. As the Scots are sovereign, we are not UK subjects, we are UK citizens, although just “we are Scots” seems more than adequate.

    374. Petra says:

      What a shambles. They’ve opened Pandora’s box and the losers in all of this will never get back into it, and close the lid, south of the border. It’ll take decades, if ever, for England to recover from the impact of this Referendum for one reason or another.

      Queenie said at Holyrood recently ”retaining the ability to stay calm and collected can at times be hard …” I wonder what she makes of this?

      ‘To: The Freeman people of the UK.’

      The Petition:

      May It Please Your Majesty …..

      2. Clause 61 of Magna Carta makes it clear that if the People are wronged by the Crown and no remedy is forthcoming after all steps have been exhausted, that the People may take whatever action is necessary to obtain satisfaction without fear of reprisal. As Sir Winston Churchill wrote (A History of the English Speaking Peoples -1956) “The underlying idea of the sovereignty of the law, long existent in feudal custom, was raised by it into a doctrine for the national state. And when in subsequent ages the State, swollen with its own authority, has attempted to ride roughshod over the rights and liberties of the subject, it is to this doctrine (Magna Carta) that appeal has again and again been made, and never as yet, without success.”

      On behalf of the People we therefore invoke the authority of:

      Magna Carta 1215/1297, Clause 61, which states, as repeated with great distinctness by Henry III (1216-72) “… it shall be lawful for every one in our realm to rise against the government to use all the ways and means they can to hinder until that in which have transgressed and offenced shall have been brought again into due state …”,

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/invoke-clause-61-of-magna-carta

    375. Ruby says:

      Scotland with no foreign policy dragged into an illegal war & Scotland being dragged out of the EU against it’s will could be something an ad agency could work on to come up with a very powerful slogan.

    376. iheartScotland says:

      @Swami,
      Saw same, he’s terrified. All he did was confirm what a totally ‘entitled’ yoon he is. Sorta’ quotes ‘Britain is great,we need to exert power to prove how great ‘WE’ are’.
      Such a sad confused man.

    377. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/t Max Keiser last night was worth a watch ,mit will be repeated a few times so don’t miss it or you should be able to get it on YouTube soon meanwhile a friend in Germany told me that a guy who lives near him said his firm who make parts of the dash board for various car firms including BMW have placed orders with a Czech plastics company and taken the work away from their previous supplier in UK The reason being the risk of cost increases from uk even though the pound is lower now and they need to be sure of continuity in supply.

      Tick tock tick tock

    378. Ruby says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      “Scotland should have its own foreign policy as a sovereign nation. Something not available with “devo-max” or “federalisation”.

      Ruby replies

      That is the reason I would never have voted for devo-max. I do not want to live in a warmongering nation with the forth largest defence budget in the world, a nation with weapons of mass destruction who go to war illegally.

      I think a lot of people joined the YES movement due to the Iraq war.

      PS What will Teresa May do about all the Scottish soldiers serving in the British Army who will be stripped of their British nationality?

    379. Breeks says:

      I’m kinda curious…

      Chilcot is being published on the last day of Ramadan, the end of the Muslim holy month. I don’t know enough about Islam to know whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing, but is it tin foil hat time to wonder if it’s deliberate? The day after Ramadan is apparently one of the most important days in the Muslim calendar. Can we hope this timing is not some provocative slap in the face to the whole Muslim world?

    380. galamcennalath says:

      Ruby says:

      “Was it not the case that every other country that became independent from Britain was allowed British citizenship?”

      No, everywhere got there own citizenship. You only got to keep British if you had connection is born here, or parent from here (or something like that).

      Ireland was different because the UK didn’t recognise Ireland as fully independent until 1948.

      When Scotland gets Indy everyone living Scotland becomes Scottish, not UKish. The only people who will be allowed dual are those with strong connections to rUK. (Not me)

      Of course some very special accommodation could be negotiated. WM are renowned for being accommodating, not.

    381. Petra says:

      @ Ruby says at 9:10 am …..

      ”Theresa May says that she will withdraw British citizenship from Scotland if Scots become Independent ….

      What’s the big deal about British citizenship? Was it not the case that every other country that became independent from Britain was allowed British citizenship? Weird that she will deny Scots British citizenship! What about all these Scots in Corby? Will they all be deported?”

      Let’s hope that Theresa May does get elected, and does exactly that, p*ssing off the Scots living in England. EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND of them that were exempt from voting in the Scottish Referendum.

    382. cearc says:

      Ruby,

      ‘and know where Santa comes from…’

      Well that’s Turkey and as he has no provable income will he be allowed into Little Britain with it’s glorious new border controls?

      Bad outlook for English/Welsh kids, eh! Still they don’t want all those turks coming in do they?

    383. Nana says:

      O/T

      Outside one of Blair’s houses this morn

      https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/750608470269947904

      Inquiry report will be available here

      http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/

      I wonder if B&Q have run out of whitewash.

    384. Ruby says:

      When Scotland is in the EU and the RUK have brexited it will be more advantageous for people in the RUK to have dual British/Scottish nationality than it would for Scots to have British nationality unless you are worried about £150 per annum heating allowance.

      Perhaps the SG should say well if Scots aren’t allowed dual British/Scottish nationality then the same will apply to British citizens.

      If the SG did say that then for once accusations of anti-Englishness would be well founded.

      Perhaps if Nicola dressed up in a trouser suit made of English flags when she made the announcement people might be fooled.

    385. ailsa craig says:

      Midge Ure is not a quiet Yes. He quite deliberately changed the ‘come it may’ part of a Man’s a Man’ to

      ‘So let us pray that come the day,
      And soon it will for a’ that’
      ——–from the usual ‘come it may’.

      He also laid emphasis on the word ‘independent’ on the ‘man o’ independent mind’ line.

      The Royals did not look too happy as the song is pretty revolutionary to start with to all of us who know our Burns.

      Good for Midge.

    386. Robert Peffers says:

      @Kenny says: 6 July, 2016 at 12:06 am:

      “Personally, I would be happy for Blair Jenkins to be reused for the pensioners’ vote. He is the type that would appeal to pensioners”

      You are talking utter bollox, Kenny, and, on this particular subject, not for the first time.

      When you perceive a problem the very first step in solving your problem is to properly identify the root cause of the problem.

      This you have signally failed to do.

      First of all consider that a fair proportion of the commenters on Wings are, like myself, from the more elderly section of Scottish society.

      So consider that just being in that more elderly group does NOT automatically force older persons to be Britnats or pro-UK supporters or voters.

      That being so, perhaps you would be wise to pause for though before condemning the whole, and ever increasing, section of the Scottish electorate as the root cause of the failure of the YES movement to win a very winnable referendum for Scottish independence.

      Here are the real causes of the problem of why a fairly large number of older people are anti-independence/SNP/Scotland:-

      First of all, if you observe photographs, or videos, of Tory Party conferences you will observe that they tend to be inhabited by older and mainly female, “Blue Rinse Brigade”, types.

      The reason being NOT that all older people are Tory voters but, that as the Tory Party has been declining in Scotland for many years, these are the remnants of loyal Tory voters from a once more numerous party. The same goes for the, now in terminal decline, Labour Party.

      What remains loyal to Labour these days are their actual elected to office, or past elected to office, people, their families and their, “Hingers oan”. Also the Older Trade Unionists and their families and, “Hingers oan”.

      What you are doing wrong is, “Pitting the cairt afore the cuddy”. It is NOT that being elderly causes one to be pro-union but IS that declining political parties are, because of their decline, inhabited by mainly more aged members. Ergo they are not attracting younger voters.

      Conversely it means that, almost certainly, political parties that are growing in membership will NOT be attracting their new members from those more elderly voters who are in fact just the still loyal remnants of the once more popular political parties.

      You really should do a little more intelligent diagnosis before opening your gob and thus potentially alienating possible elderly converts from those declining political parties for they are, without doubt, the very ones we need to win over to support independence.

      You will not convert them to vote for independence by alienating them. If someone like myself, (80 come my birthday), and an SNP/independence campaigner all my life, gets irritated at your campaign of blame, how do you think an 80 year old Tory/Labour/LibDem voter feels about your attitude of, “Blame the Old”?

      Please think about it before alienating another patch of potential indy voters.

    387. Mojo14 says:

      McTernan on Victoria Derbyshire trying to defend Tony Blair. Oh how the mighty have fallen…

    388. Robert Graham says:

      what we are about to witness today is the general public being shafted by the establishment and treated like total fools the first liar takes the stand Mc Ternan on BBC right now still talking shite and standing up for tony

    389. Ken500 says:

      IndyRef 2 will be different. Less opposition, Where will the opposition come from in Scotland? The majority will support it. There will be no outside illegal money to be wasted. There is no opposition with an interest in preventing Independence is Scotland. The Westminster liars have been shown up for ever.

      May Thatcher is a useless, incompetent proven liar, who lacks the standards required. There will be a GE soon. The Tories will lose for ever. There is no chance they will not be majority elected in the UK ever again for the carnage they have caused destroying the British economy. They are sanctioning and starving the vulnerable and illegally tax evading. Putting up the UK debt. They are despicable liars.

      The Tories did not win the last GE, they committed electoral fraud in 29 seats. They should be in prison, They had a majority of 12. It should have been a minority of 17. Not enough to have a majority. They must be wishing they did not win because of the carnage they have caused.

      The last UK GE election should have been a hung Parliament with the SNP holding the balance. The SNP would have held them to account and exposed them. Then all of this carnage would not have happened. The SNP would have instigated better economic policies fairness and equality in the British Isles. Instead Cameron and the Unionists cheated and lost. Cameron/Osbourne should be put in jail for lying and embezzling public funds. They have illegally broken the Ministerial Code of Conduct.

      They lied and won but are the losers. Just like IndyRef1. The Unionists won the war but lost the battle. Westminster secrecy, lies and criminal misinformation and propaganda. Aided by the illegal control of the MSM and Right wing Non Dom illegal tax evaders. Without a free and balance Press there is no Democracy. No taxation without representation.

    390. Dr Jim says:

      When Theresa May talked about British Citizenship being withdrawn from Scotland and the Scots, maybe @Robert Peffers can correct me but I think given that Great Britain is a geographical location and not actually a state she’s talking mince because even people in Ireland and the Channel Islands are British, it’s all British Isles

      However what she can do I think is withdraw UK citizenship and that’s a different thing although on Independence the United Kingdom as is ceases to exist because Scotland is the other Kingdom and that’s what created the United bit

      Once again our overlords in England not knowing the differences and seem to think all the titles belong to them to oversee and dispense overlordery

    391. Ruby says:

      galamcennalath says:
      6 July, 2016 at 9:34 am

      Ruby says:

      “Was it not the case that every other country that became independent from Britain was allowed British citizenship?”

      No, everywhere got there own citizenship. You only got to keep British if you had connection is born here, or parent from here (or something like that).

      Ruby replies

      What happened with India & Pakistan?

    392. Breeks says:

      We’ll be stripped of British citizenship AND not allowed to eat roast beef and yorkshire pud for Sunday lunch?

      Shit. Just when you think Unionists can’t make any positive case for the Union, they pull it out the hat.

    393. Dan Huil says:

      More threats from May. I hope he wins.

    394. Ken500 says:

      The YeS campaign did not lose. BT cheated and lied to win. This has been exposed. The YES support has increased and is rising because of BT lies, misinformation and criminal behaviour. False promises reneged upon and now exposed. Nicola will organise and win IndyRef2 when the time is right. Patience. Relevant, necessary negotiations are going on.

    395. Valerie says:

      If you want to know how spin for war works, listen to some of Chilcot and justification for war at that time.

      Hussein gassing his own people
      Children were dying
      Starving his own people
      All round Satan figure
      Wanted WMDs

      All of this has been used some 15 years later for 20+ countries for bombing Syria. A secular country with an elected gov’t. The only country in Syria there in accord with international law is Russia, because they were invited by the Syria gov’t.

      People can’t seem to acknowledge the sovereign rights of these people’s.

      Strangely, it’s our oil under their sand. If you knew even 10% of how the CIA works, uncovered many years later, you would know that some type of undercover destabilising actions have occurred.

      They tap into that minority in every country that crave attention, notoriety and money, and they activate it. It’s been working for decades.

      I want out of the warmongering poodle role that the deluded Eton boys still fantasize about. Recent events should amply demonstrate that those in London can barely run a bath, much less construct foreign policy.

    396. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Peffers

      That was it Robert, sitting back and saying nothing until you hear the knock on your door is not an option. By then it is too late.

    397. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana Did you no get the message

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlW4bEjB5A

      No long back an yer tryin tae burn yersel oot,take it easy wummin xx.

    398. Ruby says:

      galamcennalath says:
      6 July, 2016 at 9:45 am

      @Ruby

      Found this

      https://www.freemovement.org.uk/dual-citizenship-and-scottish-independence/

      Ruby replies

      How reliable is that info?

      Not that I care I am in no way attached to my British citizenship I would sooner have a EU passport.

    399. mike cassidy says:

      They’ll take away our British citizenship.

      That’s a threat!

      Leave it out!

      Actually, if Project Fear2 is already scraping the bottom of the barrel –

      Game over.

    400. Robert Graham says:

      BBC doing its level best to protect Tony and his gang of criminals .

    401. Cadogan Enright says:

      You will enjoy this

      Equally relevant to an independent Scotland

      http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2016/07/04/brand-britain-is-ours-for-the-taking

    402. alexicon says:

      And still the oil keeps coming.Even in the existing central north sea.

      http://www.oilgasdaily.com/reports/New_oil_found_in_North_Sea_999.html

      Coined a new phrase for Scotland’s Independence from the uk. Hope you like it. Sexit.

    403. galamcennalath says:

      Ruby says:

      “How reliable is that info?”

      I think it’s legit.

      About Colin

      I have been practising in immigration law for fourteen years. My career began at two charities, the Immigration Advisory Service and Refugee Legal Centre, and I came to private practice at the Bar in 2006.

      I founded Free Movement in 2007. Since then it has become a popular resource in the UK immigration law sector, widely read by lawyers, judges and members of the public.

      It is my understanding. When you are out of the UK, you are out.

      Anyone from elsewhere in the UK (or parents or whatever) will be Scottish too. They will also be able to keep their UK citizenship. IMO they would be daft not to go for dual. Suits many eventualities.

      I won’t. Any non Scottish ancestry I have goes back 200 years! I will be delighted to have a nice shiny new Scottish passport saying Citizen of Scotland & EU 🙂

      You asked about India & Pakistan.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_British_nationality_law

      The Commonwealth Heads of Government decided in 1948 to embark on a major change in the law of nationality throughout the Commonwealth… Until then all Commonwealth countries… had a single nationality status: British subject status. It was decided at that conference that the United Kingdom and the self-governing dominions would each adopt separate national citizenships, but retain the common status of British subject.

      Which I assume was why 1950s immigration was easy.

      Until the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962, all Commonwealth citizens could enter and stay in the United Kingdom without any restriction

    404. Almannysbunnet says:

      While the politicians twiddle their thumbs the markets are voting with their feet. People and pension funds everywhere liquidating their stocks, the £ in freefall. The mayor of Paris has just sent a “love letter” to 4000 executives based in London extolling eh virtues of living and working in Paris. Just heard on the CNBC money programme from an analyst in New York “by the time that the UK pulls the EU trigger there will be no UK economy left. California will overtake the UK this week, the only way to save the world economy from decline is for the British government to find a face saving way of staying in the EU.”
      The Brexit effect is only just starting to take effect. No wonder these wazzocks all wanted to resign!

    405. cirsium says:

      @Valerie, 10.05

      Talking about “Color revolutions”, have you seen this?

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-dirty-war-on-syria/5491859

    406. mike cassidy says:

      Cadogan 10.32

      I did enjoy!

      And there may be a lot of truth in this quote.

      “The Tories don’t realise that modern free-market capitalism is part of a suite of beliefs that go with openness, tolerance, creativity, enquiry and debate. Once you go for dogma, you close so many more doors than you open.”

    407. KOF says:

      @ Ruby 10:16

      “How reliable is that info?”

      As reliable as an unreliable thing on St Unreliable’s Day.

      When the Kingdom of the Scots and the Kingdom of England end their union, then there is no United Kingdom any more. There can be no “British” UK citizenship or passport, as that thing will cease to exist as there is no UK, only Scotland and England. There will be citizens of the Kingdom of the Scots and citizens of the Kingdom of England.

      I think the use of rUK (rump United Kingdom) is not useful. We should get used to saying the proper terms for it. It will become the Kingdom of England, so let’s start saying fKE, future Kingdom of England, in the meantime.

      As to Northern Ireland it was never part of the Kingdom of England, even though it was under the control of the English monarch. So, Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland? KENI?

    408. Tinto Chiel says:

      Regarding those who endorsed Yes or No in 2014, here is an official list which a kind winger posted a while ago. Many people who spoke out on either side do not appear on it, of course. I don’t think Annie Lennox is on the official list but I remember her saying she was no during the campaign.

      People can change their minds, and it is essential that there is a movement from No to Yes, but generally, “Once you’ve said Yes, you never regress.”

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_endorsements_in_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

      Much enjoyed Socrates’ and BDTT’s reminiscences about Jackie McInally and Tanadeechie last night but my comment disappeared into the ether and in any case Paula Rose would give me pelters for talking about football. Perhaps subjects for O/T.

    409. Bob Mack says:

      There are some lovely designs for a Scottish passport if you just Google “Scottish passport designs”. People are already planning for this obviously.

      Let’s not get ahead of ourselves though. Focus on the job in hand which is making it necessary to require a Scottish passport.

    410. Robert Peffers says:

      @TJenny says: 6 July, 2016 at 12:33 am:

      ” … Playing Devil’s Advocate here, last time the world and his wife, inc EU, were saying that we’d have to go to the back of the queue for years to join the EU.”

      Well no, TJenny, they were not saying that.

      The UK Propaganda wing, (and that includes the MSM), the Westminster Establishment and the Unionist Britnats were saying that.

      In fact the main propaganda slant was, as it still is today, NOT quoting real EU sources. What they are doing is misquoting European Commissioners personal claims and these were often preceded by the statement that they did NOT specifically apply to Scotland. Not only that but these commissioners had their own agendas and thus never denied the unionists claims.

      I’ve been harping on for years about the way the Westminster Establishment propaganda skews the whole thing throughout the World and the worst thing is that dedicated Independence supporters are so inured with the propaganda they not only fall for it but use it in their own arguments FOR independence.

      The true situation is that the Treaty of Union did NOT directly join four countries as a United Kingdom because, as its name tells you, it united Kingdoms and there were only two kingdoms in all Britain in 1706/7. There still is today if the Union ends, It does not end with Scotland, one of only two partners, leaving behind a still United Kingdom – who else is the, 3 country, Kingdom of England going to be united with when Scotland leaves?

      So can we blame the World at large for believing that:-
      (a) – “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, is a country if we go along with that lie?

      (b) – That the term, “Great Britain”, is other than simply the geographic term for the largest island in the British Isles and there is no other connotations of, “Greatness”, other than the relative size of the biggest island of the British Isles?

      Can we blame the rest of the World for thinking that, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, is not only the entire British Isles but that all the British Isles is, “England”, when we do not challenge the Unionist propaganda but also misuse the terms ourselves?

      Let us be quite clear about the real facts and correct ourselves first then correct everyone else, no matter how elevated a position they hold, when they abuse the correct terms.

      The United Kingdom is NOT a country – it is a United Kingdom.

      The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is TWO Kingdoms but contains four different and unique countries.

      Britain is a group of islands and it contains 8 countries only four of which are part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

      Of those two kingdoms only one of them is also a single country while the other is composed of three countries.

      The three country kingdom part of the UK of GB & NI is a constitutional Monarchy with everything in it, including the monarch’s subjects, legally owned by the Monarchy of England who is thus legally sovereign of the Kingdom of England’s three countries but is NOT legally sovereign in the Kingdom of Scotland.

      BTW: the other 4 non-UK Government countries are Crown Dependencies NOT controlled by Westminster.

      So can we blame many in the EU for thinking that the UK is England, is Britain and is a member country of the EU when we Scots misuse the terms as much as the Westminster lot?

      Now that the UK of GB & NI has voted to leave the EU then it has begun to dawn upon them that the UK member state is not actually a country and their own EU rules support individual countries, (indeed they actually support individual regions of existing countries), rights to becoming independent.

      So let us not point accusing fingers at the EU and the World at large for it is true that when you point an index finger at something the other three fingers on that same accusing hand are pointing right back at yourself.

    411. Clootie says:

      Many older people voted no simply because of caution regarding change. It is not their fault that the media were allowed to swamp the airwaves with lies and propaganda. However we also failed to provide a convincing case on the currency or defence to a generation more concerned on these issues due to life experience.

      I was asked many searching questions by our senior citizens such as ” where does the money come from for day to day operations the day after independence”. A division of assets/ reserves on day one is not duarenteed / where do we get our line of credit / what rates will we borrow at.

      I like many, many other got caught up in the passion of the debate intuitively knowing that we would have a better nation, a fairer nation I tried to sell a dream.(in their view)

      …the above last line is just not good enough this time round. We need a strong currency case and a robust defence argument.

      The official YES campaign was not good enough. The YES campaign by the people was outstanding but lacked the foundation of a credible robust nationhood model in so many areas.

    412. heedtracker says:

      Even the title’s got that Westminster stench of arse covering, rotting politics, “The Iraq Inquiry.”

    413. Marcia says:

      Breeks said: “We’ll be stripped of British citizenship AND not allowed to eat roast beef and yorkshire pud for Sunday lunch?”

      Our salad days to come.

      Re Chilcot, I would not allow the BBC to report on this enquiry but get a broadcaster outwith the present UK to report on it to us. The BBC are as guilty as Blair was in stoking up the nonsensical hysteria of WMD.

    414. Big Jock says:

      Midge Ure was a definate Yes. He said so on a radio interview and I remember hearing it.

      “The “Yes” campaign, of course, launched earlier this year, with movie star supporters and showbiz razzamatazz. Proud Scottish A-listers lending their support for independence included Brian Cox (a Scottish actor living in Los Angeles), Alan Cumming (a Scottish actor living in New York) and Midge Ure (a Scottish musician living in the 1980s).”

    415. Petra says:

      Chilcott on BBC 2 making a formal statement.

    416. crazycat says:

      @ Ruby

      Perhaps they could just apply for British citizenship which I understand is pretty easy to obtain

      I’m not sure how serious you were being when you wrote that, but it doesn’t seem to be easy at all. I have a friend who is an EU national who has been living (and working, and paying tax) here for well over 30 years. Initially she could not have become a UK citizen/subject without giving up her existing nationality. Then when that did become an option, she didn’t bother to investigate it.

      Just recently, she started to wonder whether it might be a safety net (until she can become Scottish, of course; she campaigned vigorously for Yes). It seems that applications can only be made on-line, and the instruction manual runs to 70 pages, never mind the actual application form.

    417. Tinto Chiel says:

      Regarding the Yes/No list, I see Annie Lennox is right at the bottom as an official Neither, for what that’s worth. Maybe she’ll be Yes next time, if she’s pro-EU.

      Thanks, Cearc for the link to the EU page. Very useful.

    418. cearc says:

      Cadogan,

      Absolutely, you and we both.

      This time our Indyref is all about benefits.

      (Are your local shops still taking pounds or preferring euros?)

    419. Ken500 says:

      Blair guilty Blair guilty

      Blair/Brown Westminster Unionists guilty. Tory Labour Unionists guilty.

      Guilty, Gulity

      Westminster Unionists guilty. Guilty, War criminal cheating warmongering murders

      Guilty, Guilty Guilty on all charges. ‘Psycopath Bastards’.

    420. Proud Cybernat says:

      “If you leave the UK you won’t be allowed to use our pound.”

      “Thank fuck!”

    421. Ken500 says:

      Anne Lennox lives in London/France/SA. She is an ex pat. She should not have a vote.

      There should be a residential qualification next time. 2/3 years.

    422. heedtracker says:

      How it ends.

      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 6m
      Watching Chilcot being spun in real time is unedifying.

    423. Petra says:

      Chilcott: NOT LOOKING GOOD FOR BLAIR AT ALL. GOOD on Chilcott. Someone should head his, Blair’s, way right now with a pair of bl**dy handcuffs. Better still a noose.

      …………………………………………..

      The death toll in Baghdad from the recent attack by Daesh has risen to 250 men women and children. No minutes silence? No photographs of them being posted in newspapers? No interviews with bereft family members or the injured in hospital being carried out by BBC journalists and broadcast far and wide? It would make you physically sick. Blair should be arrested and deprived of his assets. His MANY houses, bank balance and so on. These in turn, in totality, should be used to compensate the Iraqis whilst he’s lolling in jail.

    424. Ken500 says:

      There will not be Britsh citizenship. There will be British reciprocal agreements. Or joint/citizenship. That could be applied, with requirement conditions. There will be English/Welsh citizenship. Or Scots/EU or Irish/EU.

    425. call me dave says:

      I hear on radio shortbread that J. McTernan is a panel expert after Chilcot Statement finished.
      Can hardly wait.

      Also soon at WM the Sec State for Scotland will be tackled by our new shadow Sec State. Scottish Q’s.

      http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0d3f95e0-11d4-46a2-b62e-1317ce9d3e34

    426. Nana says:

      @Ronnie
      Ach Ronnie I’ll be out of action later this month, getting more treatment so I may as well get some links posted in the meantime.

      O/T
      Seems I was wrong, plenty whitewash on the shelves in DIY stores. Blair and every one who voted for war, hang your shameful heads.
      Hope George Bush chokes on his birthday cake today.

    427. Ken500 says:

      Labour Blairites Guilty, Guilty as charged. Guilty warmonger lying cheating murdering low lives. They have destroyed the world economy. Sanctioning the vulnerable and starving them to death.

    428. Petra says:

      Chilcott: Blair’s truly stuffed! Good enough for him. The ONLY people being commended re. Iraq are our soldiers.

      …………………………………

      @ Cearc …. Mark Carney …

      Carney must be wishing he’d never got involved with the UK, Westminster, in the first place Cearc and would make a good addition to Nicola’s very prestigious team. C’mon Mark just do a runner like those who are now making your life extremely difficult, Cameron, Johnston and Farage, and head North. You’ll be made very welcome in Scotland, especially as we’re not too bothered about ‘foreigners’ living here.

      …………………………….

      Sending my love and best wishes to you Smallaxe x

      …………………………………………

      Throwing Sean Connery into the hat. I know he’s 85 now and had been suffering from ill-health but who knows maybe he’d be willing to front our cause, if he’s willing and well enough to do so?

      …………………………………

      Snippet from Alyn Smith in the National …. ”Scotland has been ranked as the top country in Europe for equalities by ILGA-Europe, the Brussel based LGBTI charity. We have come a long way and we have a lot to celebrate.”

      ……………………………………..

      Nana thanks for the extremely informative posts and the laugh re. lying ‘I’m in total denial’ Carmichael.

      I was just reading the article you posted about Scot Dr Hugh Salveson (a tourist guide in Edinburgh now!) and it just makes you wonder how many Scots have held / currently hold extremely eminent posts in the UK and abroad. So far I’ve come across Scots being head of MI5, MI6, NATO etc, etc, etc and of course there’s the long list of Scots who are renowned, historically, for making a name for themselves abroad: Politicians, innovators, adventurers, pioneers and inventors. We never, or rarely, hear about them in the media. No doubt if we did it would kind of blast the ‘Scottish too stupid’ myth to smithereens. Roll on the day when we have control over our broadcasting services.

      http://www.thomasschwarzbonn.de/2016/07/04/7questions-hugh-salvesen-about-scotland-uk-eu-europe/

      ………………………………………………………………………………………………….

      Who cares about UK / British Citizenship? I want a Scottish Passport. Rid of them altogether. End of. I’ve also got New Zealand citizenship / passport and if we don’t get our Independence soon (HIGHLY unlikely), I’ll be taking off.

    429. Bob Mack says:

      Chilcote. Damning from first to last. A tale of ego,ineptitude,secrecy,misinformation and deceit. Blair should face trial for treason in his own country let alone for war crimes.

    430. Thepnr says:

      Oh Nana

      “Hope George Bush chokes on his birthday cake today.”

      Your such a lovely person but one that can stick that boot in when deserved. We could do with a lot more like you.

      xx 🙂

    431. heedtracker says:

      SLabour twitterati total silence on Chilcot but SLab activist spin more grotesque lies. They must never get power in Holyrood again.

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 4h4 hours ago
      I’m no fan of Blair or the Iraq war, but haters must acknowledge that he tried to moderate Bush. He largely failed, but he did try. #Chilcot
      2 retweets 10 likes
      Reply Retweet 2
      Like 10
      More

    432. Ruby says:

      crazycat says:
      6 July, 2016 at 11:14 am

      @ Ruby

      Perhaps they could just apply for British citizenship which I understand is pretty easy to obtain

      I’m not sure how serious you were being when you wrote that, but it doesn’t seem to be easy at all.

      Ruby replies

      I should perhaps be more careful about where I get my info from and be aware that BBC articles are a joke 🙂

      https://archive.is/Zt5nu

      It turns out the British citizen test is very hard even David Cameron failed the test’

      http://tinyurl.com/h6fv59x

      However not to worry the test can be taken as many times as you need until you pass.

      https://archive.is/Btsci

    433. call me dave says:

      Affected families and representatives have just made a statement and now answering Qs from the press.

      Tony being slated…. rightly so.

      http://news.sky.com/watch-live

    434. Thepnr says:

      Today marks the kiss of death for the Labour party. Now they must split, their is no Labour party. Blairites and Red Tories one and all.

      What have we become?

    435. call me dave says:

      Tony to take full responsibility for any ‘mistakes’ without exception or excuse!

      Regrets loss of live !

      Sky.

    436. Ken500 says:

      Cameron the Alcoholic is lying again.

      A complete incompetent lying low life, who has trashed the world economy. Misusing and embezzling public money. A total criminal, tax evader embezzler. He should be in jail. He has lied to Westminster about his income. A liar who has broken the Ministerial Code.

    437. Nana says:

      @Thepnr

      I’ve got my tackety boots on today, they might need a bit of polishing on some backsides soon. Step forward Tony and Murphy & Straw and …might need to get a few more pairs, the list in endless

    438. Ken500 says:

      Westminster is just full of ignorant, imbecile Unionist lying fools. They are out of touch enemies of the people. Crooks and criminals embezzling and mismanaging public money. Sanctioning and starving the vulnerable death, and supporting criminal tax evasion.

    439. Big Jock says:

      If anyone votes to remain in the corrupt UK after all that has happened. Needs to re-assess who they are and their values as human beings. What a disgusting country we live in.

      If it’s for their own bank balance then there is no hope for these people.

    440. Cuilean says:

      “That the term, “Great Britain”, is other than simply the geographic term for the largest island in the British Isles and there is no other connotations of, “Greatness”, other than the relative size of the biggest island of the British Isles?”

      The term ‘Great Britain’ derives from court French employed in England’s royal court & foreign policy from the Norman conquest of England in 1066. Royal court French referred to England as ‘Grand Bretagne’ to distinquish it from the original French region of ‘Bretagne’ which we, in English, call ‘Brittany’. So Brittany is the original ‘Britain’ and ‘Great Britain’ evolved from that distinction from ‘Brittany’ or ‘Bretagne’. Court French was used as the international language of diplomacy until the 18th century.

      The word ‘Great’ has nothing to do with being ‘great’ as in ‘fantastic’ but ‘Great’ as in ‘larger than’.

      The term of ‘Great Britain’ originated on passports which used the French language of diplomacy. IN this language of diplomacy the French habit of referring to the UK as Grand Bretagne was continued, which called England (and after 1707 the UK) ‘Grand Bretagne’. THis was translated in English to ‘Great Britain’ but more accurately it should have been ‘Bigger’ or ‘Larger’ Britain. British passports have always been bi-lingual written in French & English, in deference to French being the language of international diplomacy.

      Of course, the rather ‘big heided’ neighbours immediately assume that ‘Great’ means ‘the best’.

    441. Dorothy Devine says:

      JC making an excellent and pointed speech – but no hear ,hears or hurrahs.

    442. Ken500 says:

      The Tories broke Electoral rules in 23 seats that they won. Punishable by jail. They have a 12 majority. They should have had a 11 minority. No overall victory. The SNP should have held the balance of power. Non of the carnage would have happened. The UK would have been run better. The criminal alcoholics who make poor judgements would have been restrained.

      Never trust a Tory. There will be 25 by-elections soon. In England. Or they will try and keep it secret under the Officials Act. They committed electoral fraud in another two seats. Or there will be another GE soon. The Tories will not win. They will never win another election in the UK for the carnage they have caused. The SNP will hold the balance of power in Westminster. Giving an opportunity to all sorts of solutions to present matters, about the reneged promises and another IndyRef2.

      BT broke Electoral rules, illegal money donations from elsewhere, they lied and cheated during the campaign, made false promises. Broke promises. The Unionist/Green and No Party lied, cheated and broke promises during the Holyrood campaign.

    443. Squall Cloud says:

      Watching Blair squrim right now. This is better than watching fitba. He knows he’s fucked even if he doesn’t go to jail. You can smell the fear. It’s quite intoxicating watching an evil, greedy bastard put to the sword with nowhere to run. He even said “please stop saying I’m lying” to the press. I actually think he’s gonna die on stage from a heart attack the way he’s goin. Fucking awesome stuff.

    444. Smallaxe says:

      @ Petra,thank you.Peace & Love x

    445. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Voting against a referendum is an attempt to block it. The Scottish Conservatives are not an independent party, they’re a branch of the UK party.



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