From beyond the grave
Switch the phrase “a Scottish Assembly” in the speech below for “an independent Scotland” and Alistair Darling could pretty much have made it word-for-word yesterday.
But can you tell which leader of the opposition actually did?
“An unhappy and divided British Parliament could not agree on whether Scotland needed the Assembly now proposed for her.
That is why, by means of the Referendum on Thursday, Parliament has passed the question on for the people of Scotland to have their say. The Conservative Party as we well know, considers that the right answer is “No.” We hold that it places the unity of the United Kingdom in danger as never before.
I believe the question of whether or not there should be a Scottish Assembly should not be a matter for party politics.
It so clearly divides Scottish opinion irrespective of party, it must now be decided without partisan interference, and without outsiders stumping the country telling people how to vote.
“Labour MP: it’s nauseating that Sean Connery can back independence”
A constitutional change on which there can be no going back; a change which may wreck the United Kingdom and will certainly alter Scotland’s position within it – such a matter has to be above “party”.
That is why I ask that the Scottish people make full use of this chance to express their views on their future.
They must vote freely, sinking their political differences, without ulterior motives and without care for party advantage either way.
“Independence referendum must not be used as a protest vote against Tories, warns Jim Murphy”
Speaking, then, not just as a party leader but as a native of Britain I should wish to say this to Scotland.
Please let us stick together. We need each other now as much as we ever did.
“Cameron pleads with Scotland to stay in UK”
The United Kingdom as a whole is, and always will be, greater than the sum of its parts. Divided we are diminished, both individually and collectively.
We have been through a bad patch as a country, and we are still not out of it.
“Austerity ‘may last until 2020′”
I refer not only to our economic difficulties. Look outwards. Look at the Far East, to the Middle-East today, to anywhere where Britain once held sway. And reflect that the world of 1979 is as dangerous and uncertain a place as ever in which to walk alone.
Now we have been assured by those who brought this Act before Parliament and manoeuvred it through the House of Commons that it offers a stable and durable settlement.
But it would not be stable and it could not endure.
“Sterling union after independence ‘would be recipe for instability'”
Two questions at least—and there are many more—are still to be solved before effective devolution could be furthered.
One is the question of revenue-raising—a subject that would engage the Assembly in perpetual quarrels with the central government about money.
The other concerns Scottish Members of Parliament and the strange position they would find themselves in. Able to vote on many English domestic matters but not able to vote on those same matters which affected their constituents in Scotland.
“Independence would spark general election chaos”
Can anyone seriously believe that situation could be tolerated for long. How in fairness could any future Government depend for its majority on such Scottish MPs? Surely there would be demands for changes in their numbers and in their status.
This Act, if accepted, would be a time-bomb under the unity of the United Kingdom. Fundamental changes should not come about that way. We must make them by negotiation and agreement.
“Douglas Alexander calls for constitutional talks if Scotland votes no”
There was no general agreement on this Act to be found in Parliament.
Whether or not the Scotland Act would lead to separation – to an independent Scotland – is a hotly-argued question.
Some of its supporters openly intend to split up the United Kingdom.
Other people say the slide would not stop short of a federal system—a system, I might add, in which 95 per cent. of the British people have so far shown no interest at all.
“Scottish independence: Lib Dems push federal UK plans”
If we adopt these proposals for an Assembly which cannot be stable or durable, we would be creating conflict later.
I believe the common interests of the British people would rapidly disintegrate to the dismay of most and to the disadvantage of all.
It would lead back, I believe, to all the quarrels and injustices that the Union, nearly three-centuries ago, put behind us.
To vote, “Yes” in the Referendum would not, I am persuaded, advance the cause of Scotland in any material or moral way.
It would give to people in Scotland no real powers beyond those already available to their MPs at Westminster, their local councillors in Scotland, or their Ministers in the Scottish Office.
It would lead to frustration in the north and – I fear – to resentment in the south as the real and well-justified constitutional and economic advantages now enjoyed by Scotland were subjected to scrutiny.
It would do nothing for the real problems of Scotland which, like inflation, unemployment and social problems, are common to the whole of Britain. And it shows little enough promise of making an impact even on the devolved matters like health and housing whose problems, too, are echoed in the south.
“Struggle, solidarity and social justice – things that mean for me, we as Scots do better together as part of the family of nations within the UK than we do alone.”
If the Assembly does not come about, it may be asked, what then?
Well—what are the questions to which it is said to be the answer? Do people want more government? No.
They want to be pushed around less – and 150 more politicians and 750 more civil servants won’t help that.
“Independent Scotland civil service ‘£700m a year’”
Do people want to be closer to government? No. They want less of it and better. Another tier of governmental interference in Edinburgh would just provide another opportunity for shuffling off responsibility.
My own party has tried on its own to find a workable system of devolution. We do not believe it can be found by one party alone, and constitutional matters of great moment should not be approached that way.
“Rennie urges consensus on more powers for Scotland”
If the system on offer now were to be adopted it would make any real improvement of that present well-tried system impossible.
That is why we believe it right to vote “No.”
“The choice we face: further devolution vs. separation”
The House of Commons examined this Act, clause by clause, and discussed as much of it as was possible in the time allowed.
It is lamentably defective. It is damaging to our future strength.
“Britain’s enemies will ‘exploit Scottish independence to cut UK power'”
In the Referendum you are being asked to sign a blank cheque. If the account once approved, had the consequences that the enemies of our union intend and that every thinking politician fears, then no Westminster government of any complexion could afterwards be relied upon to put the United Kingdom together again.
“Darling: independence decision will be irrevocable”
A “No” vote on Thursday will ensure that we spend the 1980s together as well.”
We’re sure you’ve already figured out the answer.
The Blessed Margaret. How many Scottish people have had their whole lives destroyed by St Thatch and co? So now both Labour and Conservatives struggle on as one in Scotland. Thatcher would be very proud of likes of Ms Lamont and Ms Dugdale.
Maggie.
Ding dong!
Irony of Ironies , a Scottish Labour MP using the words of a Westminster Conservative to show us the way. What a laugh!
“A “No” vote on Thursday will ensure that we spend the 1980s together as well.”
Was The 1980s, together with Margaret and Denis the only idea for a sitcom worse than Love Thy Neighbour?
I could hear her voice all the way through. You officially just spoiled my Monday.
There’s an awful chill creeping up my spine at those statements. (shudders)
Boo!
Yes, the spirit of Thatcher and the dystopia she created permeates Westminster to this day.
Let’s escape!
…And that turned out Ok…right?
“Irony of Ironies, a Scottish Labour MP using the words of a Westminster Conservative to show us the way. What a laugh!”
And not just any Westminster Conservative, but Thatcher herself! A lady who’s death was celebrated by a good number of Scots.
Tech question: What’s wrong with the u and code tags?
Of course, as we all know, Scots voted in favour of devolution then, but were cheated out of it by a Labour party amendment in Westminster which allowed for the dead to be counted as ‘NO’ votes, effectively gerrymandering the result.
So, if there is anything to learn from that time, what was it??? Well after Labour cheated Scots out of their choice for devolution in 1979, Scots were subjected to 18 years of Thatcherite Tory rule over Scotland, whilst our Scottish oil money was squandered to give tax cuts to the rich in London, and build the M25, docklands railway and Channel tunnel.
If we vote NO in September, it is the scenario, we will be condemned to further London Tory rule. We need to vote YES, so finally Scots can freely choose the Government they want to run Scotland, whatever that may be.
OT
Speaking of blast from the past……
http://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk/456309/Rugby-hero-Kenny-Logan-s-legal-bid-for-right-to-vote-in-Scottish-independence-referendum
“Dumfries-raised trainee lawyer James Wallace”
Pretty certain that is/was the same James Wallace (ex head of Labour Students at Edinburgh Uni as I recall) who a couple of years back tried this ‘Votes for Ex Pats’ at the very start of the referendum….when Labour was still trying to rig the ballot.
Did a few publicity stunts with Mags etc where naturally his political affiliations weren’t mentioned….and as I recall made a very, very, shouty cameo in the very first (and truly dreadful) BBC Indy debate.
As I recall he has one of those faces you’d never tire of slapping with a large fish and the idea he was a ‘neutral and impartial’ observer may even have been mocked on this very site at the time.
Can anyone confirm they are indeed the same person ?
@patronsaintofcats
Aaarrrggghh! :0
Jeez you gave me fright.
“Can anyone confirm they are indeed the same person?”
It is. The Sunday Times explicitly said so yesterday.
Switch the phrase “a Scottish Assembly” in the speech below for “an independent Scotland” and Alistair Darling could pretty much have made it word-for-word yesterday
Nah, just keep the phrase “a Scottish Assembly” and you also have the position of Darling and Lamont in 1979.
The fact that most MPs in England,Wales and N.Ireland think we already get too much say in our own affairs, given the chance to reverse this,they would do gladly. Our 59 (most of whom agree) would be powerless to keep things the same,let alone give us more powers.
A “No” vote on Thursday will ensure that we spend the 1980s together as well.
Indeed we spent the 80s together. Were we better after that spell of togetherness? From Linwood to Ravenscraig were we better? Were we better for her spending of Scotlands oil money? Were we even together? When she spoke of “We English …” she did not speak for me.
Ding, dong.
Vote YES for ENDLESS HOPE!
Vote NO for HOPELESS END!
I’ve got the answer for you Kenny ! Move back home among your kith and kin and then you can vote ! Simples !
It is. The Sunday Times explicitly said so yesterday.
Cheers dinna buy the print version and cannae get past the paywall.
Did it explicitly say he should smacked about the face with a haddock ?
I can confirm that Margaret Curran was very young back then and unaware of Margaret Thatcher.
Ah, Margret Thatcher. Supporter of the Union, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. What a remarkable lady.
“Ta Mok’s lawyer, Benson Samay, said the court would hear details of how, between 1985 and 1989, the Special Air Service (SAS) ran a series of training camps for Khmer Rouge allies in Thailand close to the Cambodian border and created a ‘sabotage battalion’ of 250 experts in explosives and ambushes. Intelligence experts in Singapore also ran training courses, Samay said.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/jan/09/cambodia
“The Cambodian training became an exclusively British operation after the “Irangate” arms-for-hostages scandal broke in Washington in 1986. “If Congress had found out that Americans were mixed up in clandestine training in Indo-China, let alone with Pol Pot,” a Ministry of Defence source told O’Dwyer-Russell, “the balloon would have gone right up. It was one of those classic Thatcher-Reagan arrangements.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/node/137397
Alas. To make political progress in Scotland it would seem you have to scoop the exact same mountain of crap every time.
Same message, different conservative.
“Did it explicitly say he should smacked about the face with a haddock ?”
It was equivocal on that matter. Though it was very clear that there are NO SPACES BEFORE QUESTION MARKS.
Surely the legal argument cited in that express articles is now null and void, considering that Scots will also have the option of dual nationality…..of course, has kenny considered what happens if r UK leaves the EU?
And of course, that very legal argument is one that is used to basically prove that we won’t be kicked out of the EU…..
Staggering how much ignorance is on show….
funny enough i came across that piece last night while i was searching for this Speech at Edgbaston (“our human stock is threatened”) cant have us un-desirables breeding now :/
Speaking of waffling Labour MP’s here’s Mr Sarwar, having a go at the SNP, yet again. I often wonder if he does anything else for his hefty wage packet.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/opinion/columnists/for-johann-and-me-politics-has-been-about-changing-lives-dg-sdf-149691n.23260890
Maggie, indeed!
Was I the only one who was thinking of Tam Dalyell?
A story, in the Daily Record today showing a swing of voters in favour of independence. Covered by Torcuil Crichton, I’m pretty sure it will stick in his craw.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-snp-claim-within-3065487
Torcuil can’t demean this report, so he tries to belittle Jim Sillars by slagging of Mr Sillars low amount of views to his Youtube video, what a nice guy Torcuil Crichton is.
If that case was won,does that mean Scots could then reside in Scotland but vote in the parliamentary elections in say,oh,for instance Witney,but keep our eligibility to vote in Scottish elections? Seems only fair and reasonable…
Or have I misunderstood the case?
Make no mistake in September 2014. Vote YES.
Imagine the Party. Can’t wait.
Aye Mr Cameron ave looked at the far East, since ma first job as Apprentice Molder ( greensand )& how job,s went tae the Far East & every Inovation Invention from this Country Scotland ( sold to the Far East by British company,s balance sheet,s & shareholder,s profit,s )I like many left school at 14/15. left classroom one day,next day tackity boot,s on in a Foundry,They would sell their Granny,s each
& everyone. Yer tea,s oot dont let it go cauld.
The Wicked Witch of Westminster [shudder]… The horror. The horror.
Re “rugby hero” Kenny Logan. A one-time team mate of Gavin “Scottish independence beggars belief” Hastings. Hmmm…
What is it with these sportspeople who play for their respective sport’s Scotland “international” team, yet get apopleptic at the the idea of Scotland, the “country” they represented at “international” level, becoming an independent country in its own right? As Mr. Hastings might say, ‘It just “beggars belief”‘!
To Mr. Logan: Although dragging oneself away from the glamour of London and the lifestyle it can bring, can, most understandably, be a difficult to comprehend notion, if you want to vote in the referendum, move up to Scotland and then register yourself as eligible to vote. It really is not difficult.
Dal Riata:
Public School indoctrination would be my guess. Peer pressure applied to the rest of the team so that the Captain picks you for the squad. Apart from that I couldn’t imagine.
Rev, I just read that article you linked to about the Labour MP finding it nauseating that Sean Connery can back independence. If only Better Together had a celebrity who was born in Scotland but emigrated to another country, then came back to tell us in a funny accent which way we should vote in the referendum. I can’t think of anyone…
@ Lanarkist
Yes, you may well be right. Those “Public” schools have got a lot to answer for!
I notice that Finlay Calder and David Sole are Naysayers as well.
https://www.facebook.com/VoteNo2014/posts/474390872583881
Strange fowk.
Seasick Dave
David Sole is a very rich Borders farmer.
Although he is a lovely bloke, I’ve met him a couple of times.
And yet no-one sings more loudly and proudly Flower of Scotland than rugby players before a match.
Do you think they didn’t understand the lyrics?
Ericmac says: “I could hear her voice all the way through. You officially just spoiled my Monday”
Snap.
While everyone has a right to choose and/ or comment on Independence it is the tenor of their response which reveals a certain superiority and lack of respect for a very large cohort.
To suggest that choosing Indy is unbelievable or beggars belief shows a contempt for much of the population.
Could the Rev invite MR H to explain himself?