Fooled you again
Posted on
January 24, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Supreme Court ruling just in: “LOL SUCKERS!”
And here’s the short version.
We look forward to Scotland’s lily-livered columnists explaining to us how “federalism” is still a viable alternative to independence, any minute now.
IndyRef2 could well be our last chance to save Scotland, please do not waste it.
It should also be the end of the road for Gordon Brown being taking out of a cupboard to tell us for time to time that we have the strongest devolved Parliament in the world except for Wallonia, Flanders, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Saxony et al. Doesn’t look like Federalism to me.
This was done to New Zealand on the soft empire building in 1800s. The Moaris initially fell for it but over 100 years it was turned against UK.
We hopefully will not take that long to gain independnece which now is only way to manage our own country.
So the Scottish Parliament matters not a jot…no surprise there then. Well it’s back to the Scottish MPs, who always represented our Sovereignty in the UK Parliament, to initiate the dissolution of the sham ‘Union’ of Scotland and England.
Have I misread the above ” …that there WAS need to consult….”??
Shut up and eat your cereal.
In a way, a relief. Instead of a long drawn out mess of ‘we want X Y Z’, ‘no, D E F only’.
We now have a clear mandate, and a clear path.
Stay in UK:
no legal voice, the end of devolution. English rule.
Or leave the UK.
Supreme Court confirms Scotland is North England but allowed to use a different name for tourism reasons.
The noble lord got it wrong. If the convention is in the gift of the Westminster parliament, it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, permanent.
Short version: “ruled that there was need to consult…” ?
Confused by second extract which says we have to be consulted…?? Is that right?
That’s it then, the end of the UK. Can’t happen soon enough.
Are typos enforceable in law?
Please say they are.
Devolved administrations do not need to be consulted over Brexit
Posted at 9:53
Supreme Court president Lord Neuberger, in giving its ruling, said although the government lost the challenge, the justices unanimously ruled that there was need to consult with the devolved powers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Oh Dear, what can the matter be!
It is sensible not to point out your enemy’s mistakes, but Jesus they just keep coming along.
The BBC and unionist media, that is 99% of all media in Scotland, will report this as bicycle accident.
there’s a typo in that second paragraph surely?
Longer version. So basically when an Act of Law – the Scotland Act as modified by the 2016 Act – says:
“2 The Sewel convention
In section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Acts of the Scottish Parliament) at the end add—
“(8)But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.””
it’s not worth the electrons it’s written on, and was indeed a meaningless political bribe to keep stupid Scotland happy. So yet another bit of the Smith Report that was meaningless and not implemented.
Nurse! Tippex for Treaty of Union! Stat!
Not worth the paper it isn’t written on.
Fabulous.
For a fat fee, you too can have a panel of judges rule on a choice between you, or a squad, pulling the trigger while you shoot yourself in the foot.
Well done Brexit Britain.
Unfortunately, the BBC news website did include a misprint, omitting the word ‘no’. The decision was unanimous that they can ignore us.
When is a (very rich, say a spare £450,000) Yesser going to take EVEL to the Supreme Court now? Or can the SNP organise a fund raiser to do so? Because if UK Parliament the ONLY Parliament in the land, then EVEL cannot be introduced without making all Scots 2nd class citizens. We get to sit at the kiddies table while the grown-ups talk.
Beelin.
Martin
there is a typo in mine. For should read from.
Now Scotland must choose in a Referendum to continue as a region or be an Independent country. Region or country. Its not about Brexit anymore.
Question.
What would happen if the SNP resigned en masse from Westminster ? Could they proceed with legislation that affected Scotland without any Scottish representation, or would they have to wait till by elections were held to fill the 59 Scottish seats?
Nice to have things clarified.
The good news is that the judges have ruled that Brexit does constitute a material change of circumstances for citizens.
In fact*, their decision was based on this.
*not Alternative Fact
This legal action was a classic Win Win scenario for the Scotish Governnment.
1/. If the Sewel convention was as claimed by the Unionist the delivery of and institutionalization of the Scottish Parliament and it’s right and prerogatives in perpetuity. Then we would have gained a great deal of power and rights.
2/. In it was all just window dressing and the Scottish Parliament can be overridden at Westminster’s convenience then that is what would be found. Another lie revealed, another Unionist Shibboleth laid bare for the dishonest spin that it is.
As the good justices could not, in my opinion grant Scots more power by the back door. They had no choice but to present the the ugly truth as well as they could.
But i predict the press will run this as another blow for Nicola, can they do anything else.
They will try and hid that the “insolubility” of the Scottish parliament is in to way challenged and that the Sewel convention was never that important.
In fact the SNP are obsessing about minor constitutional interpretation and should get back to their day job.
Amazing how you can read something and hear the opposite. I did the same, but I look forward to some clarity on this one..
I heard Lord Neuberger say ‘did not need to consult’.
How many times must the ScotButs have their noses rubbed in it before it is realised that their beloved Scotland means nothing to the Westminster elite establishment?
We have to get out of this pile of manure!
Apparently SNP are planning to put forward 50 amendments to the bill in the House of Commons when it gets there. Don’t hold your breath though on any being accepted though.
Still I thought it was very nice of the Supreme Court to acknowledge that Scotland is NOT a country but we are at least a region of Greater England!
Perhaps we could start investigating how to connect up the button to the nuclear option. I can’t see things getting any easier after this judgement only worse … much much worse.
Sorry too have to say this but the two Scottish justices were both dissenting on the main ruling and of course wholly in agreement with the lack of consultation of the devolved administrations. Nothing new there then.
Sassenach – you have not misread it – but just like everything else they will ignore it – ‘most powerful devolved country’ what rubbish and if we in Scotland are fooled again we would deserve all that is coming to us. GB hang your head in shame and the whole of labour in Scotland and WM for the way you have treated Scotland in the Smith Commission and everywhere else – McCrone etc
I only hope that the majority of people living in Scotland actually understand what this means. I am sad however, in feeling that many will not. Most people do not understand the way things work and realy on the WM media. I spend my days trying to educate people but it is hard. Role on Freedom.
Today, the Supreme Court simply rattled the chains around Scotland’s ankles.
Time to get tough SNP. Could we have made more of the Scottish representation with evel and then all the English MP’s who walked in to the Commons to vote on devolved powers?
Equal union? Nothing like it!
Let’s hammer home from now until indy, every opportunity that this is not a healthy democracy and has damaged our prosperity.
“I’m a proud Brummie.”
“I’m a proud Geordie.”
“I’m a proud Scouser.”
“I’m a Proud Scot.”
Now, spot the odd one out.
Region or country, Proud Scot Buts?
Yeah, the yoon zoomers won’t know which way to turn today. Gloat over the devolved legislature’s predicament or cry into their brexit beer that parly has to ratify anything.
One thing is an absolute certainty. Today the Supreme Court destroyed the last vestige of pretence about a ‘precious family of nations’. The devolved legislatures and the people of those nations have been told their opinion is worthless.
Today is the day the myth of the ‘United’ Kingdom died.
Well folks. This is on the whole good news. We will get Indy Ref 2 now and we also know that the legislation for the devolved Parliament means nothing. As has already been said, the material change argument is now totally valid and I am confident that being relegated to a region of Greater England will get some ScotButs changing their tune.
Did anybody expect a Supreme Court in England to find in favour of any matters involving Scotland,s submissions . SLAPPED in the face again & again. Shut up Dey whit yer telt.
Adam Boulton ( skynews ) saying that the SNP will put down 50 amendments to Article 50. EVEL enacted . Will the SNP WALK out of HoC en block or will they suffer the indignity of any amendments being voted down, being ignored yet again.
WEll time to get our lions to table a motion for English indy ref in Westminster – and see if their own MP’s block it?
HELLO? KEZIA? HELLLLOOOOO?
Are you there Kezia?
What do you mean unavailable?
Scotland is an equal partner, Scotland is loved, Scotland should lead the UK not leave it, Scotland is integral,
We should stand together (until we’re told to stand outside)
Couldn’t be plainer, we’re not a country so it’s time to be one then (simples)
@Macart
Yes, it was win-win, and this is the win for the cause of Independence, but not devolved Scotland. It’s the three Devolution parties in Scotland should be protesting, so I’m looking forward to the statements from Ruth Davidson, Kezia Dugdale and Willi Rennie complaining they didn’t get what the Smith Report promised, to strengthen devolution.
Mmm, I’m still waiting …
So, it seems as Iain MacWhirter hinted at this morning, that Scotland more than just a greater extension of England. We are nothing more than a large region in their eyes.
Westminster imposed this Referendum on us. We did not ask for it, nor did we want it.
We voted, and voted to remain. We were ignored.
Our opinion on every issue on Brexit has been ignored again, and again.
To be honest, a 2nd Referendum is the only way out of this mess. I just hope many ‘No’ voters are just as enraged that not only do they live in a ‘pretendy’ country, but Scottishness is just a regional variation.
Absolute ultra-omnishambles!!
Rev wrote:
“We look forward to Scotland’s lily-livered columnists explaining to us how “federalism” is still a viable alternative to independence, any minute now.”
Tic Toc Tic Toc Tic Toc….
Perhaps they’ll be like buses? Brace yersels for the sudden rush.
The next indyref paper should just say:
“Ruled by Holyrood or Westminster?”
If indyref lose the next vote then we should close Holyrood as ultimately its just a waste of time and resources with Westminster forever holding the leash and a fear that Scotland will never ever learn.
Of course I’m hoping the choice is Holyrood mind.
‘Rood Almighty!
The Bestest and Most Powerfullest Devolvedness Parliament in the Whole of the Known Omniverse! EVER!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arv0Mx1S_ho&t=0s#t=335.715219
And what miserly powers we’re left with are here only by the good grace of our WM Lords and Masters and can be taken away again at their whim.
You getting this yet, Proud Scot Buts?
Devolution is a SHAM. It is UTTERLY MEANINGLESS.
There is now only ONE WAY Scotland will ever get the powers it needs to change everyone’s life here in Scotland for the better. I don’t need to spell it out for you. You now know what you have to do come IndyRef#2.
Would it be an idea to ask the question in your next poll,
‘Do you think of Scotland as a country or a devolved region?’
That way, it might give an idea of how successful or unsuccessful the unionist media are being in terms of keeping the Scottish public in the dark about Scotlands true status.
If most people still see Scotland as a country, we may well be in trouble.
@Yesindyref2
Ayup. The dumbest of them don’t see the other shoe that’s about to drop. Some on twatter even see this result as a good thing.
Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake. 😉
It gets worse of course. If the 2016 Scotland Act amendment about Sewel has no force in Law, what about this bit:
“Permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government
In the Scotland Act 1998 after Part 2 (the Scottish Administration) insert—
“PART 2A Permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government
63A Permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government
(1)The Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements.
(2)The purpose of this section is, with due regard to the other provisions of this Act, to signify the commitment of the Parliament and Government of the United Kingdom to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.
(3)In view of that commitment it is declared that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum.”“
The usual suspects better not EVER mention “Scottish Sovereignty” again. Everyone knows now you have been talking utter shite for years.
The Supreme Court has just broken the terms of the Act of Union without consultation and agreement by both countries representative. That the people in Scotland should always be treated equally. Scotland should have a separate Law system forever. Separate Protestant Church and shared Protestant Monarch. The Tory Royals break the Law, tax evade and engage in illegal wars. Ilegally interfere in Constitutional matters. Cause mental health problems and people being killed and disabled.
The Tories Brexit spokespeople illegally did it declare £25Milion of offshore interest. Broke UK Law. The Tories could not make a bigger mess. Chaos. Making people ill and causing death and unhappiness. They are dispicable self centred neurotic, ‘psycho bastards’. Breaking the Law and lying incessantly.
Yet the basis of their ruling – that an act of parliament was needed to trigger Article 50 because although the government had prerogative powers over foreign treaties, that did not include foreign treaties which affect UK citizens rights – does not seem to apply to Scottish citizens rights.
The UK parliament has the right to remove Scottish citizens’ rights.
Off to give a donation the the (SNP) War chest. To save Scotish jobs and prosperity. To care. The Times gave a reminder,
One is left wondering what it will take to open up some eyes.
Hardcore Unionists will of course be delighted at a further humiliation of Scotland. The ruling is unlikely to impinge much, if at all, upon the consciousness of default unionists. So we are left with those with an active interest in politics and who currently advocate federalism/devo-wowee. Are they bovvered?
How to get these messages over to no voters
Hi Bob MACK.
Much better if our 56 MP’s informed the Speaker that as Westminster had torn-up the 1707 Treaty they were leaving and returning to Edinburgh to join the Government there and form the new temporary Government of Scotland until a New proportionally elected Government can take its place.
Auld Rock
This is strange, the UKSC seems to think the UK existed since the 11th Century:
“The constitutional background
40.
Unlike most countries, the United Kingdom does not have a constitution in the sense . . .
41.
Originally, sovereignty was concentrated in the Crown, subject to limitations which were ill-defined and which changed with practical exigencies. Accordingly, the Crown largely exercised all the powers of the state (although it appears that even
in the 11th century the King rarely attended meetings of his Council”
Eh? The King in the 11th Century? This is news to me!!!
The biggest, ‘Green?’ greedy tax evader neurotic consumer in the West has the bare faced to ilegally lecture other and expects to be taken seriously. Can talk the talk but not walk the walk. Total lying hypocrite. Tory Royals illegally intervening in constitutional matters. Taking part in illegal wars, killing and maiming innocent people,
Darn… posted on the wrong tab….
Breeks says:
24 January, 2017 at 11:03 am
Now it gets interesting.
Remember a while back, I drew an analogy where Scotland’s popular sovereignty was a “red” sovereignty, and England’s was a white sovereignty? And went further to question whether Holyrood thus had a mixed, pink sovereignty, or whether the incompatibility of the two sovereignties meant you could not have pink, but either red or white?
Since Scottish Sovereignty, nor its elected representatives, cannot properly submit to a superior sovereignty, I suggested that Holyrood, in accepting it is inferior to Westminster Parliament CANNOT enact Scottish Sovereignty. Holyrood is a legislature set up by Westminster, empowered by matters devolved from Westminster, and draws no other sovereignty except white sovereignty set down upon it from Westminster.
Yes, we the sovereign people of Scotland elect the members to attend; thus we give them our democratic authority, but that is not empowering them with Sovereign authority. We cannot delegate spokespersons to submit Scottish Sovereignty to the subjugation of a superior. Holyrood is not OUR parliament. It is a blind alley / cul de sac. We are confusing democratic authority with sovereign authority.
I know it’s a popular moment many remember fondly, but when Winnie Ewing recalled the Scottish Parliament to sit for the first time in 300 years, I have held on to the quiet belief that no such thing occurred. The Scottish Parliament of 1707 was a sovereign Scottish parliament, with fully red sovereignty, up until, but not beyond the point such sovereign power was suspended. The Scottish Parliament of 1999 was never the same sovereign Scottish parliament. It was a product of Westminster, an instrument of Westminster, and it’s sovereignty was all white.
I remember being angry when people started to call our devolved legislature a parliament, rather than an assembly. Angry? Why? Because the definition of a Parliament is your sovereign seat of government, and our assembly was not sovereign.
Our sovereignty, our Scottish sovereignty is 100% resident in Scotland. Westminster cannot administer Scottish sovereignty, and Scottish sovereignty cannot be “filtered” through the UK parliament, accept its inferiority and subject status beneath the Queen and God, and then exit the other side still to be recognised as Scotland’s sovereignty.
There is no place for anyone to come between Scotland’s sovereignty and Scotland’s people. That interaction does not require any interaction with Westminster, in fact it excludes it. Until we recognise the power we have, and understand that power, then this charade of democratic process is going to play like a broken record.
We cannot change our sovereignty by any vote. It is a legal precedent, the definition which made Scotland a country which was recognised as a legitimate country by Gods man on Earth, the Pope, and no legislation or edict ever since has proven itself superior to Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty.
Scotland could not lose its sovereignty through our King being deposed by a stronger King; the default process in the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries when modern countries were being created. The conquest by force might happen, our King be killed by a stronger King, the subjugation of the people might happen, but what made Scotland different was that the sovereignty of the people could not be removed from the people and wielded by that new King. A monarch might be King or Queen of Scotland, but never the sovereign ruler. That made Scotland’s constitution unique in all Christendom, and it was recognised as inalienable by all Christendom, including the English Edward 1 and 2nd who sought to confound the legal precedent by force of arms, but were themselves confounded by it for centuries to come. It was thing done which could not be undone… ever.
Westminster has no authority to wield our Scottish sovereignty. It is mythical and untrue to believe otherwise. Our sovereignty cannot be removed from us. These are not articles of democratic principle, they are older fundamental truths. These articles have their parallels in fiction, like Aslan’s deeper knowledge of the older magic which he used to confound the Ice queen in Narnia in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Sovereignty trumps democracy, and democracy cannot do a thing to change it.
We do not require to emancipate our sovereignty from Westminster. It isn’t there to begin with. We need only question and reject the false premise of Westminster’s authority over us, and throw off 300 years of OUR misguided acquiescence to a foreign government without the power to govern.
Once you see and understand this, you cannot see anything else.
A referendum, Indyref2, will not avail us, anymore than you can change science by referendum, or maths by public opinion. Our sovereignty exists. All it lacks is recognition.
I welcome the ruling of the Supreme Court that Scotland does not have a say in the UK constitutionally. It clarifies once and for all that we are nothing more than a subservient part of the greater UK and not a country in its own right.
The bulls**t that has been used by the Uk government and slavishly repeated by an in house propaganda media (bbc and print) prior to the referendum in 2014 and continued since ie we are an important part of the UK, we are equal partners, we should help to lead the UK has been exposed for what it is, utter garbage.
Will be interesting to see the reaction of the unionist parties in Scotland to this ruling. As for the SNP they need to get of their ar** and start being much more radical than they have been so far.
The YES movement in general and the SNP in particular need to take a much more aggressive stance when dealing with the uk government and with the media both print and TV. I say that as a card carrying member of the SNP.
That second text box says that “there is need to”. Is that a typo? Did they not actually say “there is no need to”? A fairly important difference!
I don’t know why people are having a go at the judges – we should thank them for their honesty and candour in confirming what we already knew i.e Westminster is sovereign and can overrule Edinburgh at any time.
We owe the judges a debt of gratitude because now we have it in black and white.
shug says:211:03 am
“How to get these messages over to no voters”
one target group is the woman’s vote, so some more pro equality, legislation, campaigning on unfair pensions, pay ect.
This is one area where unionist are week and will try to cause discord.
Has the time come to consider the wording of the question at the next Indy ref? Given the we are legally apparently a region, should we be asked if that is acceptable?? And what about the 1707 Act? Is there no legal challenge in that??
No way back for them now, Westminster and their legal lapdogs might well have torn up their copy of the Treaty of Union, but we still have ours.
Come on Breeks, wake up man, “our sovereignty exists, all it lacks is recognition” so it doesn’t exist then??
In summing up…
http://imgur.com/a/OePDN
“…Sovereignty trumps democracy, and democracy cannot do a thing to change it….”
Except when a bigger sovereignty outvotes a smaller sovereignty.
We’re not going to read or hear about the significance of this ruling from any MSM source especially not the BBC or ITV we’ll experience another blanket media whitewash so once again it will be down to Alt Media to get the news out into the mainstream public with clarity and force.
We will hear the Government lost their appeal but Parliament will still allow the UK Government to Brexit their wee arses off with little or no concessions at all.
One thing I think is vital to Indyref 2 for a win is to seperate the UK union from the EU union as these are two different issues.
In other words think it will be vital for our case to have two seperate referendums, one; for independence from the UK and if we win, two; for whether or not we remain members of the EU.
This would allow anti-europeans to vote with their hearts and minds for an independent Scotland without the EU being a factor as later they can then vote against the EU.
It might even be wise to have a Norway style option in the European referendum.
I fear that if the vote is to leave the UK to join the EU in one vote, it will be lost.
Brexit ‘the will’ of a minority of the people in the UK.
It gets better:
“43. This is because Parliamentary sovereignty is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution,”
I daresay better legal brains will exmine this, but it seems to me the UKSC has first looked at the main appeal, the exercise of the Royal Prerogative, and made an assuption that there IS a UK-wide Constitution. Then it moves on to NI:
“135. In our view, this important provision, which arose out of the Belfast Agreement, gave the people of Northern Ireland the right to determine whether to remain part of the United Kingdom or to be come part of a united Ireland”
so basically it’s saying to NI – like it or lump it, you can leave the UK if you like.
Then it moves on to Scotland. Oh, not it doesn’t, it goes straight on to the Sewel Convention having set the scene via the UK and via NI.
“144. Attempts to enforce political conventions in the courts have failed.”
Ah, but what about the Scotland Act 2016:
“That follows from the nature of the content, and is acknowledged by the words (“it is recognised” and “will not normally”), of the relevant subsection. We would have expected UK Parliament to have used other words if it were seeking to convert a convention into a legal rule justiciable by the courts.”
Ah, I get it, so “recognised” means “not recognised”, and “normally” means “not normally”. Very good, let’s rewrite the dictionary and indeed, the English (sic) language. And what about “convention” itself? Oh, not legally enforceable even if specified in legislation. I look forward therefore to the UK, ratified signators to the Cgemical Weapons and Biological Warfare and NNPT Conventions, not observing them and developing even more WMD. After all, it’s a convention, not a Law.
Then pages of dissenting opinions from the 3 dissenting judges on the UH Gov appeal – and that’s it folks.
Seems to me the ScotGov should appeal the ruling, Court of Sessions if appropriate, or CJEU.
Brexit. A minute majority of those who voted. Caused by a migrant crisis illegally caused by representatives for whom they voted.
Scots…..know your place.
@yesindyref2 it should read:
Shutup and eat your brexit.
SKy News has been totally covering the situation vis a vis Scotland. Relatively impartially. Giving the implication it brings up. RT is having a good coverage too.
Ref 2 now but,
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 2h2 hours ago
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UK Supreme Court unanimous that this is not a devolved matter. Comprehensive defeat for the Scottish Government.
shug wrote on 24 January, 2017 at 11:03 am:
“How to get these messages over to no voters.”
I see 2 main ways of getting this done Shug:
(1): I have a feeling the Rev will be including this in WBB2.
And/Or
(2): Someone, preferably the Rev, could do a more in-depth piece on the ramifications etc of this ruling. Just enough to cover both sides of A5 card for leaflet distribution. Then we could all get our own downloaded, printed off and distributed in our own areas all over Scotland.
@Golfnut
I think you’re right, the UKSC seems to have largely ignored the Treaty and Acts of Union, except to bend them to their will regarding the Royal Prerogative. They didn’t seem from my quick scan, to consider them in their own right.
What the ruling should have had is its own section on Scotland, the same as it did for Northern Ireland. Instead it skimmed over Scotland and air-brushed our constitutional position – and indeed Scots Law – under the carpet.
Before the EU referendum I said that I wasn’t going to get overly concerned in the campaign, because ultimately through sheer weight of numbers England decides the outcome of all UK votes, and that this was to all intents and purposes an English referendum about English problems.
The Supreme Court has concluded that the British Parliament should decide on this issue, and I am hearing time and again from the British Nationalists that Scotland will be respected, by being “consulted” and by having an opportunity for our MPs to vote in parliament, where they are outnumbered by English and Welsh MPs by around 10 to 1.
The idea that we are equal partners in this rotten union should now be put to bed forever.
Scotland, do as you are told.
Useless SNP website, absolutely crap, not even a reference on it I can find, but there is this:
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Joemcg, yes it exists. The UK’s Supreme Court has even acknowledged it exists in the 2011 AXA case. https://www.supremecourt.uk/decided-cases/docs/UKSC_2011_0108_Judgment.pdf
What Scotlands sovereignty lacks, and requires, is formal recognition. That means the people of Scotland recognising our own sovereignty, and foreign governments in the international community recognising our sovereignty too. It is formal recognition at home, via the Court of Session, and from the international community via the UN and EU that Westminster is not the legitimate Government of Scotland.
I don’t see why that should be complicated. What you also need to understand is recognising Scottish sovereignty makes is legitimate, but simple failure to recognise it does not compromise that legitimacy.
We have the legal precedent and 700 years of provenance to show Scottish sovereignty came to exist and be recognised, still exists in perpetuity, and also how it is defined.
Let Westminster be so brave as to articulate its counter argument and provenance to reconcile when and how it managed to access control over Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty, strip Scotland’s people of their sovereign control and remove it to the Palace of Westminster.
Beyond wishful thinking and Prof T thought Smith would end Scottish devo, for a generation.
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 2h2 hours ago
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Happy that what the UKSC thinks we did in Smith, and what I thought we were doing in Smith, are one and the same (Scotland Act 2016, ss 1-2)
Westminster breaks UK Law constantly and incessantly. They are not an legitimate Gov. They act illegally and are not a Democratic Gov. Some people’s vote matters more than others. The UK is not a Democracy,. Scotland has to gave another Referendum and vote YES for Scotland to be a Democracy.
The regional assembly of Wallonia will have a say in Brext, but not Scotland or NI, or Wales.
Scottish Gov can go to the ECHR before Scotland is taken out of the EU. To defend the people in Scotland’s Human Rights.
My take is that they simply avoided the BIG issues of sovereignty etc.. They had to decide if WM needed to be involved in declaring Brexit and if devolved governments also needed to be involved.
Much of the Scottish submissions were simply ignored. They were cans of worms they didn’t have to open to answer the questions. They didn’t even have anything to say on Scottish constitutional law and sovereignty because they didn’t need to.
In deciding devolved governments didn’t need to be involved, they simply pointed out that there is no obligation in law to do so.
The results is exactly as I expected.
I don’t think it effects where we are nor where we are inevitably going.
Holyrood will debate Brexit and reject it completely. WM will ignore that. However, the rest of Europe looking in will see where Scotland stands. IndyRef2 is inevitable and a YES result is what matters.
Yoon culture explains, Scots have no say, never had, so shut up, England’s in charge, its great, rule Britannia, vote SLab.
Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 22m22 minutes ago
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Sturgeon makes hay with #Article50 decision, but no-one thought UKgov *legally* compelled to consult ScotParl. Manufactured grievance again.
well there you go then our our parliament
our voice . our way of life means
nothing to them we should just shut up
and do as were told.
well here is one person who aint going away
it is time our govt tells them to just f–k
off
its time to withdraw our mps from wastemonster
its time for them to come home to set up a
scottish parliament it is time to go it alone .
its time to extinguish this one sided
act of union . no votes needed just go
and live our own lives under a scottish
govt which will be fair and just its just
time to go .
From that tweet of Sturgeon:
“However, it is becoming clearer by the day that Scotland’s voice is simply not being heard or listened to within the UK. The claims about Scotland being an equal partner are being exposed as nothing more than empty rhetoric and the very foundations of the devolution settlement that are supposed to protect our interests – such as the statutory embedding of the Sewel Convention – are being shown to be worthless.
This raises fundamental issues above and beyond that of EU membership”.
Here’s one possible response to being denied access to single market and control of immigration.
Have people heard of ‘sanctuary cities’ in the US? This is where democrat controlled cities and states refuse to enact ordinances that would deport illegal immigrants like Mexicans because they are a necessary part of the local economy and pay local taxes.
If May keeps telling us to stuff it, maybe Scotland should follow that route and make major urban centres where immigrants are, ‘sanctuary cities’. Official tolerance of future ‘illegals’ attracted to come here; or of those formerly legal EU citizens that are left stranded by Brexit.
Scotland would become a part of the UK where in key respects, Brexit’s writ simply didn’t run.
Grieving yet? Grief’s not really the emotion between this vile seps ears:D
Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 23m23 minutes ago
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But she’s not. Like the Tories, SNP are only interested in using this situation to further other aims. And remember they only have one aim.
yesindyref2 says:
Totally, they need to up their game online.
They seem to rely on Twitter and Facebook for news flashes. Fair enough, but these should be referring via links to full, tidy, accessible articles on their own website.
My advice, for what it’s worth, is they should separate membership services and news/article/press releases. They need a good rapidly responding ‘news channel’ online.
I like this passage from Nicola Sturgeon’s response to the Brexit ruling on Scotland not being allowed a say in Brexit. Funny enough I could not find any coverage of it in the unionist media.
‘This raises fundamental issues above and beyond that of EU membership. Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly right-wing Westminster with just one MP here – or is it better that we take or future into our own hand? It is becoming ever clearer that this is a choice that Scotland must make’.
I agree that the next Scottish Independence referendum has to focus on Scotland’s diminished status under the union, as well as the EU question.
So the Better Together federalist middle ground of progressive Unionism and super-strong devolved governments turns out to be a quagmire of English constitutional wrangling?
Gosh, what an immense surprise.
And what a truly awesome situation for Scotland to be in.
So much better than making a clean break and running your own affairs.
yesindref2 @ 11.04 am
You highlighted one of the sections of the SC ruling that also struck me: its worth repeating it again below:
“Originally, sovereignty was concentrated in the Crown, subject to limitations which were ill-defined and which changed with practical exigencies. Accordingly, the Crown largely exercised all the powers of the state (although it appears that even in the 11th century the King rarely attended meetings of his Council.”
So in this Union, our SC chooses to look back to powers and practices of “the Crown” which pre-date the formation of the Union when explaining its ruling, and then only to the powers and practices exercised within one of the two kingdoms.
Throughout the ruling, there are references variously to ‘domestic law, “English law” and ‘UK law”. Scots law has no place. The SC judgement also notes:
“It was famously summarised by Professor Dicey as meaning that Parliament has “the right to make or unmake any law whatsoever; and further, no person or body is recognised by the law as having a right to override or set aside the legislation of Parliament; and, further, that no person or body is recognised by the law of England as having a right to override or set aside the legislation of Parliament” – op cit, p 38. So not to this UK law which the SC refers to in places today, but the (supreme) law of England!
Having no legal expertise, I look forward to those who argue on this site for some ‘special’ rights (sovereignty) attaching to Scotland to offer their view on the significance of the SC’s ruling and perhaps in particular the judgements of the Court’s members from Scotland.
How many of the Judges who ruled are English? Is this a case of an English reading of the law being imposed on Scotland? Perhaps a Scots lawyer can give and answer.
Breeks 11:03 is actually quite correct and that post is worth paying attention to.
Personally, I do not recognise the authority of Westminster and I lend my sovereignty to Holyrood as the best vehicle for my aims (independence) even if it is not technically the reincarnation of the original Scottish Parliament.
Note that the recent language of Theresa May and Fluffy Mundell suggest that they may even be considering clawing back powers from Holyrood.
At the end of the day we, the people of Scotland are sovereign. If we want independence we just have to take it by whatever means we can.
I say this as a card carrying SNP member.
Power devolved is power retained. Never forget that.
The fragrant Ms Hartley-Brewer talking to Peter Grant MP about Scottish issues right now – talkRadio
Once they’d actually decided that the Prerogative didn’t apply they could have left well enough alone. The Prerogative is actually devolved.
If the basis of the decision is that as this isn’t a devolved matter then Sewel doesn’t apply then that would have been enough. It was an act of folly to make any determination.
However as they have then the fact remains that withholding of the signature that enacts legislation is a prerogative which is in the hands of the FM as far as devolved legislation goes.
Nemo me impune lacessit , might just be worth remembering.
As to the idea that Holyrood can’t be abolished without a vote. Even if that is so it’s not beyond the whit of Westminster to attempt the same as they tried with the HoL and rob it of all and any powers rendering it a hollow shell. Why else is there a move to bypass Holyrood and devolve powers directly to local councils. UKIP’s proposal of re-establishing cottage hospitals and autonomous local boards is also an example.
Proud Cybernat says:
24 January, 2017 at 11:27 am
“…Sovereignty trumps democracy, and democracy cannot do a thing to change it….”
Except when a bigger sovereignty outvotes a smaller sovereignty.”
Nope, you don’t get it. No offence PC but that’s UK thinking.
A bigger sovereignty clobbering a lesser sovereignty is how the Divine Right of Kings works. When two kings with Sovereignty from God meet in Battle, to the victor go the spoils, and Devine sovereignty still comes from God, through the monarch and onto his subjects. There is no constitutional anomaly when the Divine sovereignty of one king is ended by the Divine sovereignty of another. That is how Kingdoms merged legitimately by the standards of the day and grew into countries.
Scotland is different, and became different when the Pope recognised the popular sovereignty of the Scots via the Declaration of Arbroath. A “conquering” King cannot usurp our collective sovereignty, because our sovereignty is not divine, and nor is it embodied in a single king who might be easily killed. It comes from the people. Replacing a Scottish King does not transpose Scottish sovereignty onto the victor.
Yes, the Conquering King might take everything, raze the place to the ground, but he will forever be confounded by two words forever beyond his reach… Sovereignty and legitimacy.
@me @ 1158
@yesindyref2
https://mobile.twitter.com/theSNP/status/823849075879636993/photo/1
…. is a good strong response.
However, it’s a bloody image delivered via twitter! I cannot find the text of the press release anywhere online. It should be featured on the home page of their website.
Up your online game, Nicola!
@galamcennalath
Indeed, that’s exactly what they need to do. It could be natural for the undecided to think “what have the SNP got to say about it”, and the answer seems to be “nothing” from their stupid website which does indeed, concentrate on membership not the general public. Just like YES Scotland did in a lot of ways.
@One_Scot
There’s an article in the Herald about it, haven’t checked elsewhere.
@Habib Steele
Two of the judges are Scottish, and the others usually defer to them on Scottish Matters. The decision on Sewel was unanimous.
24 January 2017 – A major turning point in Scotland’s history?
And delivered on the eve of Burns’ nicht too….((((SLAP))))
UKOK jackboots back on, SLab style,
Adam Ramsay ?@AdamRamsay 10m10 minutes ago
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What the Supreme Court made clear is that Westminster can trample the Good Friday Agreement & ignore the Sewel convention if it so wishes…
Duncan Hothersall
?@dhothersall
.@AdamRamsay The Sewel Convention is called the Sewel Convention cos it is a convention, not law. You knew this before today. Stop spinning.
This morning’s Supreme Court ruling confirms something I posted on another Wings’ thread – our main battle ground in the political fight for Independence is not Holyrood, but Westminster.
However, we need to ensure the pro-Independence majority at Holyrood is right behind the 56 pro-Independence Scottish MPs at Westminster, who are our front-line, shock troops in the battle.
The 56 must now, at every opportunity, push home the argument that dragging Scotland, which voted to remain inside the EU by a larger majority than voted out in England, out of the Eu, is a dereliction of the Act of Union – which declares that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two EQUAL kingdoms.
The message has to be, if we are equal, we want to stay in, you want out, then, you cannot force your views on us; you either negotiate a settlement which suits our stance, or, you dissolve this Union, which, by your insistence on LEAVE can no longer be equal.
If, I assume they will, the English MPs do not accept this, then surely even the most one-eyed stupid pro-Union Scot will realise, we are second-class citizens and come over to the side of Independence.
The SNP, as a party and as the Scottish Government, ought to have the best experts in Scots Law and Constitutional Law working on this case, to give the 56 MPs the best-possible ammunition to fire inside the Westminster Chamber.
Did the Daily Record know that the ‘Vow’ was a big fat sham?
If not, they were lied too, just like the rest of us, and need to make a statement telling us who exactly lied to them etc.
If they did know, and were willing to lie to their own readership, then it will be up to Daily Record readers to decide if they will continue to pay someone to lie to them and treat them like mugs.
Over to you Murray Foote.
So surely the next indyref should have these 2 options: 1) Scotland should become an independent country 2) Hollyrood should be abolished
The people of Scotland humiliated again by the.british establishment!
Our views are of no concern or consequence to britian how clearer can they be other than to enshrine it in law!
That’s it then, there’s no such thing as devolution or federalism in the UK.
It’s colony status.
Or to be more correct, we’re Morris Dancers with kilts.
As is always the case, these ‘rulings’ by the UKSC will be spun by a subservient media in true unionist fashion.
People in Scotland will never be allowed to see what is actually going on, and, because we can never get an even opinion in media/BBC, will not fully understand the tearing up of constitutional issues.
We will get more than full-on Indy-bashing come a new referendum (far, far worse than last time!) from the BBC et al. It’s going to be a hell of a hard job because your average voter is not as exercised by politics as ourselves.
I grieve to think what it might actually take to ‘turn’ the NO voters – but turn them we must, next Indyref will likely be the last – as, once out of EU jurisdiction, Westminster will simply do as they wish, including IMO, closing down Holyrood.
@stewartb
It’s strange. I’ve been a supporter of Independence – unwavering – for 44 or 45 years, and this ruling brings Independence one vital step closer. Yet I’m still disappointed that Scotland means so little to the UK, and devolution, agreed by 74.6% of the population in 1997 is so disrespected, and indeed, under threat.
Not sure whether that’s empathy with those genuine NO voters who want devolution within the UK, or even a little bit personal.
I know I shouldn’t be but I am shocked and dismayed.
As for the twat prof whatsit saying the SPP have been defeated, no it’s the Scottish people who have been defeated.
So the Claim of Right means fuck all, the sovereignty issue also means fuck all.
We are in a dictatorship
We have just had any notion of Scottish sovereignty shat on from a great height but still people on here think it exists! I suggest you look up the dictionary and read what the word means because its getting very boring.
And now that Holyrood is proved to be a sham we are back in the status quo ante where the Blessed Margaret Thatcher said all we had to get independence was to get a majority of Scottish MPs; how does 56 out of 59 rate as a majority?
As for Westminster – Hoyrood consultation, its good enough if we are allowed to talk to the hand
Kezia Dugdale comments on Supreme Court decision:
“We are divided enough already. That’s why there will be no support from Scottish Labour for any SNP plan for a second independence referendum.”
Reminded me of Mavis Riley in Corrie, “it’s just all too difficult”. Bye bye, Kezia.
While the result is as expected and the glee from Yoons is palpable, the FM has played a blinder. She has used every route available and has exposed the flimsy facade of Smith, Sewell and every other piece of lip service the UK government paid to Scotland in the wake of Sep 18th.
Never again can the Yoons claim that we are the most powerful devolved parliament or that we have a voice in anything. This, although painful, actually clarifies the situation.
http://www.businessforscotland.com/supreme-court-decision-scottish-independence/
@Marker Post
That’s a direct quote from Kezia Dugdale?
https://informscotland.com/photo-opps-billboards-daily-sch…/
Short and sweet , all SNP MPs walk out during PMQs and leave the English to their Parliament .
End this Farce NOW .
Scotland dictated to by right-wing UK Government
http://archive.is/S67Yr
Alex Salmond says
https://twitter.com/DrewJMcGowan/status/823862000019247104
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/enda-kenny-to-warn-the-uk-not-to-renege-on-belfast-agreement-1.2948304
Picking up a few points from above:
The SC is of course correct in saying that a convention is not enforceable in law. That’s the whole point of a convention. But it is – again as the SC says – a political judgement whether to exercise it or not, and the consequences are political, not legal.
It is correct that the Scottish parliament is not a sovereign parliament. That is made explicit in the Scotland Act. It is not the same parliament as in 1707
The people of Scotland may consider themselves sovereign, but that sovereignty is recognised in no statute before or after 1707 that I can find (happy to be corrected if such a thing does exist). On the contrary, Scotland has always had a monarch – and sovereignty ultimately lies with the monarch. The crucial difference being that the Scottish people have – since Arbroath & in 1689, reserved the right to depose a monarch.
That’s the way things are – and there’s no point in working ourselves up by imagining that we’ve been fooled by anything other than our own belief in politicians promises.
There are only really three courses open to us:
1) Win indyref2
2) Refuse to recognise the sovereignty of Queen in Parliament (UDI)
3) Depose the Monarch, using much the same terms as the 1689 Claim of Right (UDI in a slightly subtler context)
Frankly, I don’t rate our chances of 2 or 3…. gaining much traction in Scotland just at the moment (the time may come)
What about withdrawing our MPs from Westminster? It would be a statement – and might cause a degree of consternation in WM, but would ultimately have zero effect on the constitutional position. And it would undo all the good work being done by our MPs on other issues – much of which has more effect on people’s day-to-day lives than arguments about sovereignty.
So it’s indyref2 or bust.
@Macart
Straight from the BBC website:
Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale said her party would “continue to work with the Scottish government to get the best deal for Scotland within the UK”.
She added: “Both the SNP and the Conservatives are casting about for an expedient political position rather than working in the national interest. Unity cannot be achieved by a politics that sees one half of the country constantly facing off against the other.
“We are divided enough already. That’s why there will be no support from Scottish Labour for any SNP plan for a second independence referendum.”
Yoons delighted at Scotlands parliament being told it has no say on anything and Scotland doesn’t count because they equate everything as SNP and they still don’t get it that it was Scotland that was told to bugger off not just the SNP
So no matter which political party was in charge at Holyrood is not important
Bigger picture Labour!
@ yesindyref2 11:42.
Yep, I think they new they were on thin ice here, their first priority was the decision on Parliamentary Sovereignty,after that was the dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t decision. Had they decided that Scotland’s Parliament had to be consulted, every decision thereafter by Westminster thereafter could have been challenged, they had to fudge it, no choice.
However, that doesn’t prevent Holyrood from voting on this, and Nicola has already said that they will, and Scotland’s MP’s will certainly oppose it.
Next step is EVEL, constitutional crisis.
BREXIT RULING.
BBC UK POLITICS running the story with comments open:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38720320
861 comments.
BBC IN SCOTLAND running the story with comments open:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38721681
285 comments.
macart,
She’s quoted thus on the Sunday Post website at least. A slightly fuller version:
Cringe, cringe, cringe.
But Kez is a broken sideshow, the game’s afoot.
Forget every distraction. Nicola has it dead right. This ruling raises fundamental issues of sovereignity way beyond any side issue. That’s the necessary focus. Its indy Scotland or England’s last colony.
liz says:
24 January, 2017 at 12:25 pm
I know I shouldn’t be but I am shocked and dismayed.
As for the twat prof whatsit saying the SPP have been defeated, no it’s the Scottish people who have been defeated.
Prof T’s a bluffers bluffer. He’s written the colonialist guide to bluffing.
See if he’s on BBC vote NO Scotland saying its all a Scots parliament defeat. Because those imperial masters will be right now trying to work out their UKOK spin too. Donaldo’s probably not going for “defeated Holyrood” spin though, and Prof T’s not exactly the full ticket either.
Keep it up Professor Two Jobs We Are The People sectarian bigot Adam Tomkins, the man whom I and the vast majority of constituents in this ward told to ‘fuck off’ by an embarrassingly large majority.
You snide little tweets rejoicing in this farcical decision merely serves to strengthen our resolve.
Vacuous, bench warming gravy trainer.
Today is the day. Now’s the hour.
Yet more arrogance and ignorance from London towards Scotland and its people.
“Unity cannot be achieved by a politics that sees one half of the country constantly facing off against the other.”
It takes two to tango, Kez. Or are your opponents just to STFU and accept your vision of Scotland’s future i.e. decades of extreme right-wing Tory rule in austerity Britain?
Aye–that’s some future to really look forward to Kez. FFS get yourself on the right side of history for a change, hen.
@kininvie 12:46pm
“…Scotland has always had a monarch – and sovereignty ultimately lies with the monarch. The crucial difference being that the Scottish people have – since Arbroath & in 1689, reserved the right to depose a monarch.”
That sounds to me like the people of Scotland have, ultimately, the last say on sovereignty, regardless of whether it is/was written down. Statute or no statute. Sounds to me like the people have sovereignty.
Lawyers may disagree but Scotland’s independence will be decided by the people. Lawyers may want to prevent that, but, utimately, like any monarch, they are subject to the wishes of the people of Scotland.
Does anyone think that the Lib Dems/SLab (a deposed Dugdale?) or even the Ruth Davidson Party will come around to defending Scottish interests now rather than those of the UK?
Or are they just in too deep and can’t see the wood from the trees?
Kezia’s right though. We are divided enough as it is. That’s how the Empire always worked it’s rule. Knowing that is probably why Labour support is plummeting.
More er, nuanced than Prof T’s, BBC vote NO Scotland wise, but as we all know, sanity and Prof T are not exactly compatible.
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 2h2 hours ago
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UK Supreme Court unanimous that this is not a devolved matter. Comprehensive defeat for the Scottish Government.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38721681
Court rejects Scottish government Article 50 argument
Kezia Dugdale on Supreme Court ruling on Brexit
(source: LabourList)
“It’s clear now that this is a decision for the UK parliament. Labour in the UK parliament will seek to amend the article 50 Bill to prevent the Conservatives using Brexit to turn Britain into a bargain basement tax haven off the coast of Europe.”
“We will continue to work with the Scottish Government to get the best deal for Scotland within the UK. But both the SNP and the Conservatives are casting about for an expedient political position rather than working in the national interest. Unity cannot be achieved by a politics that sees one half of the country constantly facing off against the other.”
“We are divided enough already. That’s why there will be no support from Scottish Labour for any SNP plan for a second independence referendum. Only Labour is standing up for what the majority of Scots want – a strong Scottish Parliament within the UK and close ties with Europe.”
Coming to a site near you, the latest episode of Scottish soap,
Twatterdale.
As an aside, I think between this and the collapse of power sharing, the Good Friday Agreement is dead in the water. Next stop, joint authority maybe?
Holyrood should act as if it is already independent from Westminster, whether Westminster likes it or not. They will, I hope, vote on Article 50. While it’s at it Holyrood might as well vote on ending the union with England.
BBC r4 tory gimps have a Scottish voice on their vote tory show, its Baroness Kennedy, who’s really worried about UK expats, or immigrants, as they love being labeled.
“The government are moving into very choppy waters”
https://twitter.com/AlexSalmond/status/823857170508816384
Not surprised at this at all. Watch out Scotland, your little bitty parliament can be dismantled anytime!
So Kez is saying ‘we are divided enough already’ she must be referring to her labour party. She would see Scotland destroyed then, rather than even planning a new independence referendum. Despicable, but she is taking orders from her london masters.
Might the Mayhem attempt to scupper another referendum in Scotland? It wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
@Joannie 1:19pm
We must all keep our eyes on Northern Ireland’s reaction to this “ruling”.
@Marker Post and Robert J
OMG! How can anyone defend the claim that their population has been relegated to second class citizenry? That their vote, their human rights, their opinion and their choices are worthless because the next door neighbour says so?
I knew Ms Dugdale wasn’t leadership material, but that’s fucking ridiculous!
Her federalist plea has been blown out of the water. The votes and rights of her electorate have been insulted, at best, and put under extreme hazard at worst. This individual put herself forward to represent the interests of the Scottish electorate. Put her hat in the ring for First Minister of Scotland FFS! That kinda means looking after our rights and interests COME FIRST. THAT IS the day job of the First Minister of Scotland.
Clearly Ms Dugdale did not and does not fit the job requirement.
If this is the feeling of the rest of Labour in Scotland, then God help them come May and they’d better just stay the hell out of the way should the indyref trigger get pulled.
That was a catastrophic and hugely inappropriate thing to say on the back of that ruling.
Nicola should call a second referendum right away while peoples backs are up strike now
Power devolved is power retained!
“We are divided enough already. That’s why there will be no support from Scottish Labour
Vote SLab and be united:D
As its now clear that the UK government are going for a hard Brexit – leave single market, leave customs union, is there any point in waiting any longer before calling for an indy ref in Scotland? Norn Iron can wait because there’s talk of special arrangements of some kind, but I don’t see the point in Scotland waiting?
Joannie says:
Speaking from a position of very limited knowledge about NI affairs … it does strike me that this might put a different slant of how the election there goes. I have seen opinions saying that while the election should be fought on devolved matters, it will actually have Brexit at its core.
The resultant assembly makeup may be more anti Brexit and this may reflect on whether a power-sharing arrangement can be reconstituted.
There again, it might not! Then other arrangements will be needed.
What I don’t understand is why the SNP seems to engage with Westminster with one hand tied behind its back.
This sovereignty issue is there! The legislation is there! The legal precedent is there! The Supreme Court’s own acknowledgement of the issue has been talked about since 2011!
Ok, I can accept that a UDI, explicit or implied, could provoke a backlash amongst the happy knuckleheads, and with some credence for once as the minority imposing its will upon a majority, but there seems so much about Scotland’s sovereignty which is known, and incontrovertible truth, but given no credence, when instead, the Act of Union, as equally widely known for its intrinsic lack of legal competence and highly dubious origin is shown such reverence and respect.
But Hellfire, you can stand well short of the actual UDI (and by the way, I’m not even advocating UDI) and still use this article of sovereignty as a mighty club to beat the Act of Union to a pulp. It is rare for the SNP to reveal its exasperation, and that is to their credit, but when Westminster has no answers to these questions, and they don’t, I do not understand why this issue is not prosecuted with merciless intensity. Why is there such reverence for an Institution which stands on such bogus foundation?
Let me quote Prof Nicolas Boyle from his splendid article The Problem with the English…
“….. the attempt of the Unions of 1707 and 1800 to create a single British nation to rule a global empire was finally shown up as a self-deceptive device by the English to deny the Scots and the Irish a will of their own.”
See? England knows its all a con. Eton certainly knows it’s a con. England knows, but yet the greater majority of Scotland doesn’t.
It’s the same when dealing with the BBC. How much is too much? What’s the plan?
I don’t like Donald Trump, but when he gets the BBC type negative spin which has bedevilled the SNP for years, his reply is a dismissive “Ach, Fake News”, and he bats it awaynlike a fly. Suddenly he has the whole press core on the ropes, and freedom to babble about what he wants to talk about. Now I’m not saying the SNP needs to ape Donald Trump, but come on SNP. You don’t seem to be making many inroads here. Truth be known, you’re not making any.
Open up a coal face on the Sovereignty issue, and get the whole of Scotland at least aware and up to speed on our historical constitutional strength and political subjugation. It’s not SNP dogma, it’s documented history and cultural heritage.
Spell it out. Spell out the skeletal structure of Scotland’s denied sovereignty, compare and contrast with the bare bones of Westminster’s faulty constitutional presumptions, and set Theresa May and Boris the cretin the unenviable task of trying to justify the unjustifiable.
Look Theresa, look UK, look Scotland, we win here. This argument about Scottish sovereignty is where we win and you lose. We are not negotiating the articles which none of us can change, we don’t have to, its game over. But cheer up, we haven’t pressed our “nuclear” option because we are trying to secure rational and level headed dialogue which acknowledges this binding “new” reality. We want to discover whether we can salvage some vestige of the former United Kingdom which can form the basis of a new and productive understanding between two close nations, or whether you intend to stick your fingers in your ears, deny everything, and insist things are done the hard way… talk to us, properly, or we’re just gonna go.
Duncan Hothersall
?@dhothersall
.@AdamRamsay The Sewel Convention is called the Sewel Convention cos it is a convention, not law. You knew this before today. Stop spinning.
Who was it that started spinning it as a legal guarantee? (all those months ago).
The most powerful devolved parliament in the world.. 🙂
And by the way, we are already sovereign. Scotland is there for the taking. It’s just some of our own folk that are holding us back (the soft NOs).
To clear up a couple of misconceptions:
1. The Claim of Rights/Act of Union argument was made in support of the UK Parliament having a say on the triggering of Art. 50, not the Scottish Parliament. The Supreme Court has agreed that Art. 50 cannot be triggered by the Government in exercise of the Royal Prerogative.
2. We now have confirmation that “putting the Sewel Convention on a statutory footing” simply meant recording it in a statute. The convention is still only a convention and is not legally enforceable. As suspected, section 2 of the Scotland Act 2016 has little purpose beyond window-dressing. The Supreme Court’s interpretation is a valid one and entirely predictable.
From the Scottish perspective, all today’s decision does is confirm the limitations of the current devolved settlement.
Red Tory Kezia Dugdale says:
“We are divided enough already. That’s why there will be no support from Scottish Labour for any SNP plan for a second independence referendum.”
Kezzy, if that’s your stance then surely you must think that every single election in the history of the human race is divisive? Also, we seem to recall in the not too distant past, you never had a problem with inviting yourself into the recent divisive shenanigans across the pond, eh! Not only a turncoat but a hypocrite too!
@Dan Huil, The Declaration of Arbroath was accepted by the then highest court in Europe, the Vatican, and unless it is declared void in the international courts,it remains valid in law. Interestingly, the Magna Carta was rejected and has no international recognised force in law.
We are also in an Internationally recognised Treaty with England, Westminster has no power to set it aside on the international stage unless the Scots Parliament agrees.
The Treaty of Union is going to feature heavily in the coming months.
galamcennalath – I think Sinn Féin will drive a very hard bargain before they agree to return to a power sharing coalition, so what happens next in NI is anybody’s guess.
Scotland’s path is clearer though. Its either independence or hard Brexit.
Graun,
“Nicola Sturgeon has challenged Scottish voters to decide whether they are content to have the country’s fate decided by rightwing Tories in London or would rather vote for independence.”
SLab
“Unity cannot be achieved by a politics that sees one half of the country constantly facing off against the other.”
Even Grauns gentle little “rightwing Tories” rule over Scotland for ever, is better than the nation state of Scotland.
Are there are any left wing tories, in England?
Scottish democracy is really stretching UKOK hackdom into a whole new universe of tory bullshit artistry.
Some other reaction.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/01/24/lying-until-theyre-red-white-and-blue-in-the-face/
http://derekbateman.scot/2017/01/24/still-no/
One thing is certain, EVEL no longer has any validity in any shape or form. If Westminster can make law regarding any devolved matter it chooses then it follows that there is no basis for it.
Scots MPs should refuse to leave the chamber or give up their seats when such matters are discussed and insist on taking part in any division even though they may not be counted. Let the tellers sort it out.
Joannie says:
Much talk, but apart from SC today confirming what we already knew about legal aspects, nothing much has happened officially. What May says matters much less than what the EU say, and they are saying nothing until A50.
First thing will be the divorce settlement and I expect things to break down there before anyone even mentions trade!
So Scotland can’t jump ahead just yet. Soon though, it will be clear what the direction definitely is.
Most important of all, perhaps, is that the mass of the population who get on with their day to day lives and don’t follow politics blow by blow, need to become engaged and conclude escape is better than the Brexit dungeon!
Come an indyref, today’s ruling is dynamite.
Come an indyref.
There’s one or two wee procedural hurdles to be got over in the meantime, so patience is paramount.
This is the part in a movie where a strong deep voice says ‘STEADY! Steady in the line. Wait till you see the whites of their eyes.’
To paraphrase the bard: ‘Gathering your brows like gathering storm, Nursing your wrath to keep it warm.’
He had a way with words that fella. 😉
@Golfnut 1:38pm
Thanks for that, Golfnut. I’ll remember.
Ouch, so much for a union of equals.
Laura KuenssbergVerified account
?@bbclaurak
Key how specific judges are in what they demand govt to do – unlikely nightmare for ministers is requirement to get consent from Holyrood
Power devolved is power retained
“Scotland is sovereign…but but but…!” Listen to yourselves. We are NOT sovereign!
WGD,
“The Sewell Convention which was written into the Scotland Act has no legal force, no meaning, and exists merely as window dressing to disguise Scotland’s powerlessness with nice words that have no effect.”
Nutty Professor,
Adam Tomkins MSPVerified account
?@ProfTomkins
Happy that what the UKSC thinks we did in Smith, and what I thought we were doing in Smith, are one and the same (Scotland Act 2016, ss 1-2)
Devolution pronounced “dead” as Sturgeon goes for Brexit motion in Holyrood
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10177/devolution-pronounced-dead-sturgeon-goes-brexit-motion-holyrood
OK I have read the full judgement and several things stand out.
The judges did not address the issue of sovereignty because there was no need, having already decided that the Sewell Convention could be superceded by a UK Parliamentary Bill. Sewell and indeed aspects of Scots law can be overruled by Parliament at any time. They state this is in the Treaty of Union of 1707.
However in section 149 ,it is very clear that a successful referendum on independence in Scotland would arrest that process. This might seem obvious, but what is unsaid is more important.
They are acknowledging Scotlands right to self determination rather than abide by UK law if that is what the citizens wish. The fact that they did not rule this out as being possible is our lifeline. We must make it work this time.
@Macart
Yes, the SNP still has to wait until the A50 Act goes through Westminster as, in theory, there’s still the vanishing possibility Scotland can get what it voted for by 62%, democratically within the UK. Not until that goes through can it be certain there’s no way for Scotland to stay in the Single Market within the UK.
So, after the end of March is still the earliest target, but there’s one less hurdle in the way – any obligation the UK Government would need to ask (and ignore) LCMs from the devolved “assemblies”.
As for voluntarily asking for LCMs the UKG is snookered. If it asks Holyrood and Cardiff it would have to ask Stormont which won’t be sitting until March, not enough time to meet the end of March deadline May set for A50 invocation.
Dugdale, quit now.
What an unbelievably arrogant and down right idiotic response to this ruling.
Has she no intellectual capacity at all?
Who would vote for this mish mash of Labour Never-Beens again?
What are the Unionists going to call themselves now ” The Occupied ” ? .
Well there is no Union just an Ocupation disguised as a partnership.
To all Proud Scot Buts.
You are now, legally, second-class citizens in your own country of Scotland.
Hope you enjoy the scenery.
At Westminster the SNP Majority Party are not allowed to speak for Scotland. If only the Tory and Labour parties are allowed to speak for Scotland then Scotland sending MP’s to Westminster is a complete sham. The next indref should have 2 questions
1. Scotland should become an Independent Country. OR
2. Scotland should become a region of a Greater Britain.
This would allow the so called proud Scot unionists to put their money where their mouths are. We have nothing to lose by this as I believe if we lose the next Indref, Independence will be gone forever as Westminster will stitch Scotland up good and proper then abolish the Scottish Parliament. People of Scotland WAKEN UP.
@Yesindyref2
That’s pretty much how I see it. 🙂
Please note the change in Nicola’s choice of words.
We, the Sovereign people of Scotland need to take our case to the European Court of Human Rights. Westminster may be able to tell Holyrood what it can and cannot do, but not to the Sovereign people of Scotland. And we have spoken. We wish to remain European citizens.
galamcennalath says on 24 January, 2017 at 1:45 pm:
“Most important of all, perhaps, is that the mass of the population who get on with their day to day lives and don’t follow politics blow by blow, need to become engaged….”
Ain’t that the truth! And it’s down to us to wake them up.
As for Treeza Mayhem, she’s only in charge of the good old SS.Britannia until the ship capsizes in the current storms and then she’ll be replaced faster than you can say Aye,Aye Cap’n! And then we’ll be fed another hefty dose of “new beginnings” and a new found promised land of mega riches and opportunities for all. That’s how they play the game.
I for one sincerely hope that when we become independent that rules are created and enforced to prevent any First Minister bowing out or jumping ship when the waters get dangerous before their fixed term is up. David Cameron was allowed to flee the scene of his crimes and he took with him certain knowledge which we are just now being made aware of.
A countries political leader should only ever be allowed to cut their term in office short due to serious illness and/or death.
I wonder if this ruling has breached the Act of Union? Does Nicola know something we dont, hence her language in the statement?
Joemcg says:
24 January, 2017 at 1:52 pm
“Scotland is sovereign…but but but…!” Listen to yourselves. We are NOT sovereign!”
The biggest trick the devil played was pretending he didn’t exist.
The Biggest lie from Westminster was pretending that Scotland was a vassal of England.
Or in other words to be a slave, both have to agree to the proposition! Well Joemcg, are we vassals or freemen, will you deny a thousand of years of Scottish Independence, for the treachery of a few belted knights, some cowardly lord?
Or will you raise the standard of rebellion, stand in line with your brothers, and say, this far and no further Westminster, we know you for the dogs you are! Beware Westminster Beware, we Scots are ready for the fight!
@Joemcg says: 24 January, 2017 at 10:55 am:
“The usual suspects better not EVER mention “Scottish Sovereignty” again. Everyone knows now you have been talking utter shite for years.”
Didn’t take the undercover unionists too long but I had expected Rock to get in first.
I’ll tell you just how much utter shite YOU are spouting.
The Supreme Court has effectively just officially announced that there is now no longer an official, “Treaty of Union”, between the Kingdoms of Scotland and England.
So if Scotland is not a legally still a fully equally sovereign partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom, in the official eyes of a Supreme Court, (a court set up by the Parliament that proves itself to be the de facto parliament of the country of England by the use of EVEL), then they are stating officially that there is no longer a legal bipartite Treaty of Union.
If there is no Treaty of Union then there is no longer a legal United Kingdom. If there is no longer a United Kingdom then there is no longer an EU member State called the. “United Kingdom”.
That means that the Kingdom of Scotland, whose rule of law states the people are sovereign is no longer a legal partner in the Westminster Parliament but is now illegally ruled by the Westminster de facto Parliament of England to be a just another region of the country of England that they still want to be called Scotland.
Yet as the member state of the EU, UN, NATO and God alone knows how many other World organisations, including the USA and the Commonwealth, them any one or more of them can declare that the United Kingdom no longer exists and can tell Westminster where to stick its claim to be the United Kingdom. Perhaps the Russians, the Chinese, North Koreans and some of the bombed to hell Mid and Eastern Asian states might take that step before the SG declares itself NOT to recognise the Westminster Parliament as no longer the actual United Kingdom Government and takes their case to the EU courts.
The Supreme Court has just unlocked Pandora’s Box for the World to open and we must now wait to see which World power, or the Scottish Government, will be first to open Pandora’s box.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the Herald even now is organising another BMG poll, for this week or next. And perhaps other media as well.
First, technically the clause in the Scotland Act isn’t the Sewel Convention but a definition of it that allows Westminster to legislate for Scotland in abnormal circumstances. Despite the obvious fact that making it stick might be problematic. And given sufficient warning a punt at Sturgeon advising the Queen to use her Royal Prerogative in such a devolved issue to withhold Royal Assent might be enough to prevent such legislation from ever actually being put onto the statute books. Failing that there’s nothing to prevent Holyrood from repealing, amending or reinstating any laws within it’s remit. As a matter of common sense legislating in areas devolved to Holyrood without legislative consent can only be justified in an emergency and with a certainty that such consent might be achieved after the fact.
The finding itself mentions Rhodesia as an example of a similar convention and that as conventions are political rather than legal so are the consequences. All the crowing from unionists ignores that warning. They’re more interested in claiming the victory and less in reading what the actual verdict is. I’m at work at the moment so have only skimmed it but am reluctant to take at face value anything a unionist tells me.
Given we live in a world today of alt-facts, post truth and extrapolation, what is there now to stop the Westminster Government simply saying “No” to any suggestion from Holyrood for an Independence referendum 2.
Holyrood is a child spending its pocket money in the eyes of Westminster, the Media and now the majority of the UK public.
Theresa May is not the same as David Cameron and the political landscape is also now very different. I for one await this scenario being asked in the media very soon…and I fear the collective response will be “Quite right!…move on Jock and let the adults here get on with it!”
Even though I knew it was unlikely there would be a ruling on devolved governments, I’m still feeling pretty depressed about the way the question on devolved administrations was just dismissed – it is a political matter, fair enough to a certain extent, but I do not know that is particularly true – they did, after all, accept the submissions that brought up these points in the first place – so they could have said ‘we cannot answer that question here’ or something. NI, I think, put forward that they shouldn’t be consulted (but other issues should be taken into consideration) i.e. it was only scotland and wales that demanded consultation.
The result doesn’t matter in the big picture for a second independence ref. – the SNP have plenty of ammunition whatever the outcome and I believe it is being used to the best long-term benefit. But, shit, why can’t there be some kind of civilised, rational, respectful, just reasonable even, discourse from England, it just seems to spew unreasoning, arrogant, insulting, empty rhetoric non-stop. And that the judiciary do not even want to get involved is frustrating (but not unexpected). I made the mistake of watching some of the debate on the urgent question on trident in the house of Commons yesterday – that always depresses me, the sneering derision that scottish MPs are subject to, and scottish citizens by extension, is shocking to hear. I keep telling people that they just need to watch a half hour of a debate to know just how much contempt they hold for scots. I cannot understand the psyche that wants to be treated with such derision. No doubt we will have to endure much more abuse before the advent of indyref2, to give those with thick skulls time to let any realisation sink through.
On a slightly lighter note, I noticed that SNP London has invited Jolyon Maugham QC – the man who is investigating Article 50 revocability via Irish courts – to one of their meetings. Interesting. His specialty is actual tax law, but seems to be embroiled in social justice and now constitutional issues.
heedtracker says:
Yup. Everyone knew Smith was DevoFA.
Scotland was told NO meant DevoSuperHomeFederalRuleMax. They lied, again, as always. Smith was exactly what the Yoons wanted, toothless Sewell and all.
Joemcg says:
24 January, 2017 at 1:52 pm
“Scotland is sovereign…but but but…!” Listen to yourselves. We are NOT sovereign.
Don’t read dictionaries. Read history books.
Or here…
http://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-sovereignty-for-dummies/
I have just read the commonspace article.
i’m not sure an LCM will do any good but it must be done.
The utter rubbish that the leaders of the unionist parties in Scotland speak is unbelievable. ~Mind you wee Wullie isn’t mentioned!
Westminster have just excreted on everyone in the ‘region’ of Scotland – even the unionists . Why take any nore?
@Sunniva says: 24 January, 2017 at 10:57 am:
” … The UK parliament has the right to remove Scottish citizens’ rights.”
No change there then? Westminster, because they could outvote the Scots at Westminster, have been doing just that since midnight on 1 May 1707. Why would they bother stopping doing so now?
Well, basically, it’s not our opinion of all this that counts, we want Independence. Nor is it the opinion of the relatively few activists on the other SNP-hating side.
It’s the opinion of those non-involved voters who want Devolution, Scotland staying in the UK and being respected as one of the four nations of the UK, and an equal partner.
What will they think?
In all honestly, anyone who says there is not going to be a referendum on Scottish Independence in the near future, is either at the lower end of the political awareness spectrum, or just at the wind up.
The only real question now is, will the British Establishment let us win it?
@Desimond 2:24pm
I dearly hope May and the Westminster britnats try to stop IndyRef2.
@Joemcg says: 24 January, 2017 at 10:55 am:
“The usual suspects better not EVER mention “Scottish Sovereignty” again. Everyone knows now you have been talking utter shite for years.”
The people of Scotland are legally sovereign, Joemcg.
The people of Scotland are legally sovereign, Joemcg.
The people of Scotland are legally sovereign, Joemcg.
The people of Scotland are legally sovereign, Joemcg.
The people of Scotland are legally sovereign, Joemcg.
Don’t you dare attempt to silence the truth Little Englander supporter.
Q: Which is of more use?
a) The Sewel Convention.
b) A chocolate tea-pot.
Ans: The chocolate tea-pot. At least you can break it into pieces and share it with friends. You can’t do bugger all with the other.
Was talking to colleagues about Indy 2 and have concluded that Scotland is populated by mushrooms – content to be kept in the dark and fed a diet of bullshit by the MSM. I have therefore resolved to leave the UK ASAP – Scotland, you’re welcome to come with me, just don’t expect me to wait…
Undercover unionist? Aye Robert? Fed up with you insulting everyone that does not agree with you. Want some truth then? Your posts are boring as fuck and pure verbal diarrhoea your daily pish about Scotland being sovereign has just been blown to (English) kingdom come. Your posts going on and on about ancient history are laughable and I cringe every time I see your name. I wish you would do one to be honest and not assault my eyes any longer. Protect him all you want Peffers defenders but im heartily sick to the back teeth of his tedious musings.
So, wait a wee minute here. The Scottish parliament (not just the SNP) can go fuck itself regarding, well, anything involving UKOK legislation, and yet… And yet the unelected House of Lords, with the likes of Pish-Head Foulkes and Grab-a-Billionaire Mone, gets a say on Brexit but the elected MSPs don’t…!?
“Please don’t go!” “Don’t leave us!” “Lead us!”
Project Fear 2014.
“The justices unanimously ruled that there was no need to consult with the devolved powers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.”
Supreme Court ruling on Brexit decision January 24, 2017
“Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?”
Johnny Rotten January 14, 1978
Those of us who remember the ’80’ s and the ‘feeble fifty’ SLAB MPs will recall that even Maggie Thatcher accepted that a majority of Scotland’s MPS in favour of Independence was legal because of the Act of Union, those then 72 individuals were the successors of the original Uncle Toms who constituted the first Union parliament post 1707.
Maggie thought as did the majority, even in Scotland, that that event would never occur. This is why it was a great disapointment to me and many others that the SNP did not demand this right in the last UK general election. Our sovereignty was never in doubt, but the REF result set it back and left it with the UK, but did not extinguish it.
Having nearly all the Scottish Mps representing the party for Scottish Independence should have been the trigger to demand this perfidious Union be dissolved as undemocratic and dubious in its legality. However, the Brexit fiasco and the bogus Supreme Court ( a Blairite institution specifically created in order to stymie Scottish law’s legitimacy) has allowed this situation to be possible, in an even stronger fashion. We are now presented with the open and unadulterated iron fist of England’s presumed and naked power over us. The velvet glove has been removed once and for all, so that that even the dimmest and feart amongst our population can see that Holyrood, our law, and our very identity has been on sufferance and a sham all along from our colonial rulers.
Sorry for my ignorance, but what’s an LCM?
Lol, Joe, take five minute out.
One by one, the
reasonsexcuses for voting NO disappear. If many soft NOs found 2014 an uncomfortable experience, it’s going to feel like a stroll in the park compared to what’s coming.The Cake of Constitutional Delusion just had the icing applied today.
Decision time approaches.
Theresa May will tramp all over Sewell with her tackety boots, also what made Scots think the English Supreme court would do them any favours.
Indyref2 is in reality the only way forward now, lets start pushing for it to be held in 2018.
The stakes are much higher now. It really is win or bust. We have 15-18 months to save our nation. Doing nothing will be the end of Scotland as we know it. Losing a referendum will be the end of Scotland. Winning will be the only way folks.
i firmly believe that this ruling breaks
the act of union full stop
i now want all mps recalled from westminster
and all to attend the holyrood parliament
i now want the scottish govt to claim the right of
the sovereign people of scotland
i now think its time to claim u d i
i shall never be a second class citizen
a slave or subserviant to any uk govt
its time to go our own way its time to get out
its time for the holyrood govt to grow a pair
off balls and tell them to fuck off
its time for them to do it right now
History not yer strong point then joe…your loss. Insulting people because it’s their’s…way tae go joe, it’s not about defending Robert, it’s about calling someone out as an arse when they are being an arse.
By all means be upset about what is going on but don’t expect people to just sit back and give you a pass on being a dick when it comes to personally attacking others on the grounds that you don’t understand what the fuck they are on about.
Yes that is me having a go at you for that!
@Desimund,
The supreme Court judges today themselves acknowledged that a successful Scottish indy referendum would proclude Scotland from future Westminster rulings.
They in fact are acknowledging the possibility of a future referendum.
@ Robert Peffers Under attack from the usual suspects again , yer dain weil in tha batting averages, did you play cricket per chancety . You hit the boundary, or should I say Bounders for six. lol
Agree with Dan Huil @ 0123pm , Holyrood should in addition to voting
on article 50 , also have a vote on seeking through all democratic and legal avenues
the ” withdrawal of our country” from the acts& treaty of union . If TM would dare to deny
a second referendum then the Scottish government should seek the right of ” self determination”
through the European courts ( if necessary) .It is crystal clear that the equality of the “union”
which united the Kingdoms in 1707 has over the past 310 years been almost completely eroded
until this day whereby we are now deemed to be a mere ” region” of ” greater England”
The vote on withdrawal from the union should thereafter be ratified via referendum 2.
Can’t let electoral commission run the next Ref. We need to be smarter. Needs to be run from Scotland. No postal votes going to Newcastle to be counted. No black cabs delivering ballot boxes ffs. We need an impartial EU observer nation. Every box has to be followed to it’s destination by a witness. If we lose we want to lose the argument, not win and then lose without knowing we actually won.
@Luigi
There is sadly the other side of that coin, the apathetic have another reason to shrug “Hey what you gonna do eh?” and turn away. @robertknight hit it on the head regards Scottish Mushroom mentality,. People resort to that lazy “they’re all the same” mentality and withdraw.
I fear its a massive mountain needing climbed but then again, can anyone name a mountain not climbed!
I pray all the while in the background the plans are progressing and the facts are ready to be unloaded with a full perfect execution leaving no room for alt-facts or Tory doublespeak or Labour wish-washery
@Joemcg says: 24 January, 2017 at 10:55 am:
“The usual suspects better not EVER mention “Scottish Sovereignty” again. Everyone knows now you have been talking utter shite for years.”
And Joemcg – show the courage of your convictions and at least name the people you class as the usual suspects. I at least have the courage of my convictions.
Where are yours? As usual backed by nothing by way of reasoned debate.
End of any further reference to you, at lest for the time being.
If you care to imagine that you have made some sort of win – just wait and see how this thing unfolds. I’m sure that Nicola, the SNP and the SG were anticipating, as I was, just such a ruling by the SC of England.
“This is not the end”, as a very famous Yoon once said:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdRH5wzCQQw
What if every SNP MP resigned which would create simultaneous by-elections all over Scotland, in effect a Scottish general election, and then stood on a ticket of independence now?
Risky perhaps but as we are having no impact at all on Brexit, something has to be done.
Although the feeble fifty Labour MP’s may not have been much good, they also could not really do anything, any more than can our SNP MP’s.
Hands up all of those who didn’t see this exact decision coming. What no hands, none at all now there’s a surprise.
I know nothing about the law but guessing what the judgement by the Supreme Court would be wasn’t hard. In fact I’d say it was obvious, just surprised that it wasn’t an 11-0 vote for both decisions.
If we’re not surprised then you can be certain that the Scottish Government is not surprise either. In fact they obviously anticipated this result well beforehand hence the announce that they are to table 50 amendments in the HOC on any Brexit Bill put before it.
Don’t know about you but I’m very happy with the decision, federalism can be put to bed now as we can have it NORMALLY until they say we can’t.
Regarding sovereignty? Lets vote Yes first then put that to bed too.
galamcennalath says:
24 January, 2017 at 2:24 pm
heedtracker says:
Happy that what the UKSC thinks we did in Smith
Yup. Everyone knew Smith was DevoFA.
This has all demolished very last cred of the next Crash Gordo style, federal UK, devo-max ref 2 display.
The end of UK panic station psych war, like C4 news here, behind The Vow was clearly aimed at undecideds across the Scottish vote spectrum, so ex PM, Scottish Labour, no rebuttal, piles in, 2014, but the rebuttal is right in front of everyone now.
Should be interesting watching tory BBC Scotland media led mess they make of it all too.
https://www.channel4.com/news/gordon-brown-scots-being-offered-home-rule-within-uk
Crash is one reckless gambler but he’s also a political coward.
RScott Shaw says:
24 January, 2017 at 2:42 pm
Sorry for my ignorance, but what’s an LCM?
Legislative Consent Motion
@Joe mcg,
Joe, the only reason we have had referendums given or allowed to us is because we have that historic choice and that sovereignty invested in us. When was the last time referendums on independence were offered or allowed for Wales or N Ireland or any other part of the UK ?
They ain’t doing it out of the goodness of their heart mate.
@BobMack
I don’t understand. I believe the common conception arising out of todays verdict is that everyone now assumes Westminster has total control and Devolved Parliaments are nothing but parish councils.
I would like to know how Scotland forces an Independence referendum if Westminster were to simply say “No, we reject this”.
And this is no wind up or mischief making, I genuinely fear that this will be taken as a precedent for putting Holyrood in its place once and for all and end the irritation that is the SNP.
Forget Indyref2 . We have no mechanism at all – not least with a UK Supreme Court that sees the whole UK as Greater England – that compensates for our lack of numbers in a union of so-called equal nations. It simply cannot work. And be sure that if we voted yes by a small margin that same Supreme Court would rule the vote invalid.
Not only that, but among we ‘few’ we have among us a substantial number of the ‘many’ who voted to retain our colonial status in 2014 – and who could blame them? Scotland is not their country – England/Britain is. They will do so again
It cannot be repeated too often that had the 2014 vote been limited to those of us who were born here, we would right now be free.
There is an increasingly resounding case to re-patriate all of our SNP MP’s to Holyrood, and declare de jure what we have de facto – a democratic mandate for independence.
UDI now!
Thanks Jimmy.
The people of Scotland are legally sovereign.
Unfortunately last time it was exercised, it was 55% NO to Independence so we left the UK to make the big decisions for us.
@Auld Rock says: 24 January, 2017 at 11:04 am:
” … Much better if our 56 MP’s informed the Speaker that as Westminster had torn-up the 1707 Treaty they were leaving and returning to Edinburgh to join the Government there and form the new temporary Government of Scotland until a New proportionally elected Government can take its place”.
Let us not, “Jump the Gun”, (a USA expression BTW: It stems from when a cannon shot started the race to, “Stake a Claim”, on land taken from the Native Americans but where some had, “Jumped the gun”, and sneaked in early to stake their claims on the best bits).
The SNP/SG have so far played a blinder and I trust them to be still at least one jump ahead of the Yoon lot yet again. Whatever else Nicola is it is certainly not a fool.
Desimond says:
I think they could do exactly that. We hear many in their ranks saying that is what will be done.
I would suggest it would be suicide for them to try to stop a referendum.
WM and Yoonery know that about half of their NO vote is Union-until-death, the other half need to be kept on side by fearmongering and false promises. There is a big chunk of NOs who say they aren’t opposed to Indy on principle, they just don’t think the time is right, or whatever. Shutting down democracy wouldn’t help retain these voters but would drive them to YES.
If WM says no ref, but one is organised by the SG under international supervision, what can WM do?
UDI now!
UKOK tanks on the lawn, Holyrood.
Those who are advocating UDI, stop it and go and read Peter Curran on UDI
Would you really like to see the army on Scotland’s streets, soldiers from here having to choose which side they were on? The unionists would love that and yes then we really would be divided, Westminster would make sure of it.
@Desimund,
In section 149 of the ruling today the judges though allying themselves with the overall power of Parliament, do acknowledge that a successful independence referendum would change Scotlands situation. They make no mention of either Wales or N Ireland, who do not have that right to choose
They are expressly admitting that Scotland would have the right to decide.
Re the Commons and appointed House of Lords vote on triggering Article 50 separating the United Kingdom from the European Union.
I’m just wondering,the next time Her Majesty the Queen is at church will she be saying:
“Well, I hope people will think very carefully about the future.” ?
Published on Grouse Beater this weekend:
The Tartan Elephant: The positive results for Scotland of the Supreme Court Ruling.
Well, we all need a laugh now and then to cheer us up. 🙂
Coming soon on Grouse Beater:
An Interview with Alex Salmond: What next? Brexit, Trump, and IndyRef Two.
Legislative Consent Motion
problems 2009, “Buggers” is that a legal term?
https://archive.is/jjdAk
‘I would like to know how Scotland forces an Independence referendum if Westminster were to simply say “No, we reject this”’
The Scottish Government can have a referendum on anything it wants. I am not sure Westminster not making it legally binding would be a politically smart move.
@galamcennalath
SNP say we want a referendum
Westminster say No
In the eyes of most outside YES Scotland, that will be case closed. Do Scotland then have to go to Supreme Court?
The assumptions that Scotland has its own this and its own that, has been removed with Westminster has control. I maye be simplifying this somewhat but I think it really is black and white…Westminster now see Holyrood as nothing of importance. They have nothing to fear either as Scotland already rejects Tories yet they have the power regardless so nothing more to lose in saying “Nope”
@Bob Mack…
Saying the SC mentioneda referendum result meaning change is not the same as Westminster approving a referendum. I suggest Cameron and Co, like Brexit vote, thought there was no chance of a YES vote and gave approval with that confidence, Theresa May and co wont dare take that chance again if they can do anything to avoid it.
Do you have a link to your articles Grouse?
Oh my! Well over 200 comments already.
Ah wee bit of a hot potato this one, eh!
🙂
Malcolm Chisholm (Labour ex ScotGov Minister) on Twitter:
“Problem with deliberately weak wording of latest Scotland Act on legislative consent but UKGov should consult+ScotParl give view in any case”
and
“ScotParl must give view and UKGov must take hit in Scotland for not consulting”
The SC made no ruling regarding the Treaty of Union, it stands, its Scotland’s Parliament that has been ruled against in this instance, and suits our purposes very well. They have done Westminster no favours by exposing the Scotland Bill for the sham we knew it to be.
What really is galling about this latest expression of contempt for Scotland is that you know, despite the bleedin’ obvious evidence that federalism/devo max is now dead, that Dugdale will be in the studios of the colonial media – probably tonight – wittering on that Labour have a better, ‘more united’ way, which is federalism/devo max. And she won’t be challenged on it, not remotely. And ‘journalist’ and Westminster stooge alike will grin and giggle and fandance..
What will it take for Scots to shake off this permanent adolescence of the Union?
The manifesto that the SNP stood on in the last Holyrood elections was constructed in such a way as to hold a referendum withing the competences of the devolved powers at that time. Basically a Yes result would have presented Westminster with the problem of simply rejecting out of hand any negotiations towards independence but at the same time justifying a declaration of UDI.
The problem now being presented to Holyrood is how to initiate a consultation on Scotlands future in the UK, in other words a referendum, that does not involve legislation that can simply be revoked by Westminster. However foolhardy such a step might be.
At the same time now that it’s established beyond doubt that Westminster may still legislate I wonder if the Greens will be foolish enough to delay the passing of the Holyrood budget long enough for such an intervention to be passed of as being justified?
Golfnut says:
24 January, 2017 at 3:26 pm
The SC made no ruling regarding the Treaty of Union, it stands, its Scotland’s Parliament that has been ruled against in this instance, and suits our purposes very well. They have done Westminster no favours by exposing the Scotland Bill for the sham we knew it to be.”
Yes. True.
However my issue is that an Indyref2 could be a similar sham; a process carried out from start to finish as a sub-sovereign “British” political process, not the disruption to the Union posed by real Scottish sovereignty flexing it’s muscles.
@yesindyref2 says: 24 January, 2017 at 11:04 am:
“Eh? The King in the 11th Century? This is news to me!!!”
No! No! yesindyref2. This is the consistent dirge from the Westminster Establishment. They obviously wrongly contend that English History always takes precedence over all other British Kingdom History.
Witness their assumptions of the Magna Carta being applicable to Scotland as example. This is the same arrogance that assumes that because the Union Parliament sat in the already legally dissolve Kingdom of England Parliament building it was the continuation of the Parliament of England that considers itself now to be the United Kingdom but has no actual Parliament of England yet acts as if Westminster was by use of EVEL.
Hold a vote in the Holyrood parliament on ending the union with England.
I would like to believe that the supreme court ruling has finally removed the scales from the eyes of those who believe devolution and the Holyrood parliament are permanent fixtures and can’t be abolished.
But I doubt it will, they will probably still cling to the belief and try to persuade everyone that no Westminster government would ever abolish the Scottish parliament.
Ignoring the fact that Scotland doesn’t matter electorally in forming Westminster governments and as we have seen Scotland’s voice and opinion doesn’t matter.
Dan – Technically it would be the WM MP’s who could vote to refuse to sit in WM. This would be effectively Scotland going on strike and eventually force a snap referendum on independence. There are many options like that.
However the SNP are democrats and want to take the people with them on this journey. It’s frustrating but we have to continue as a peaceful movement.
I think it was a mistake for the SNP Government to pursue this.
It was always bound to be defeated, it was always going to be depicted as such by the SMSM but more importantly, it pre-softens the shock Scots will feel when the Supreme Court rules that Scotland cannot unilaterally become independent.
@Dan Huil
Do any votes in Holyrood matter now?
All it is is the same as a child shrugging annoyance when told to go to their rooms whilst the adults are talking.
This, I believe, is how Holyrood and the Scottish Parliament will be portrayed from now on, and indeed, will be the accepted public perception. A toothless dog which needs either petted or put out its misery depending on owners(!) mood.
I know I am painting a bleak scenario but I think this is where we now are..viewed as an empty vassal and there to be used and abused.
How we overcome this will be quite a feat. Quite a few exit strategies may be needed as each drawbridge closes.
I also don’t see any credence in people claiming the Act of Union will save us, Westminster Acts for Westminster.
See the good news is the SC pulling the rug from under the feet of the Holywood government, is that in my opinion, a very similar rug would have been pulled from beneath the feet of a YES majority in 2014.
We do not need either consent or ratification from Westminster to engage Scotland’s sovereignty, yet we seek assurances that Westminster will recognise it. I’m not entirely sure we understand the distinction.
Holywood needs a thorough audit from a constitutional lawyer, to eradicate completely any and all confusion and ambiguity about its sovereign status. I believe such an audit would bear striking similarities to today’s SC conclusion, and jeopardise the rightful conclusion of any indy ref. Westminster might simply ignore it.
Therein lies the rub/catch 22. Scotland needs to act independently of Westminster to connect properly with our sovereignty, whereupon that act of sovereign independence is in fact Scotland being sovereign outside the Act of Union, ergo independent by deed.
Derek Bateman has a piece today, which completely nails some of the outrage and anger I feel right now.
Here’s just a wee bit;
“We live in a ‘nation’ where a single MP, perhaps the most personally unimpressive individual ever to hold ministerial office, represents the entire elected strength of the State. What he says counts more than the First Minister’s voice, more than your opinion, more than the entire electorate of Scotland. We have a government representative who has said that the country he speaks for does not exist in law. He has said it is not his job to be Scotland’s man in Cabinet.
He has though led a piece of legislative chicanery which purported to guarantee Holyrood’s place in UK decision-making by making it the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. Smith declared that the parliament should be ‘made permanent in UK legislation and the Sewel Convention put ‘on a statutory footing.’
This was unctuously portrayed by Mundell as a major and meaningful concession.
But the wording made clear it was no such thing. They are political, not legal considerations, as the Supreme Court has duly ruled.
http://derekbateman.scot/2017/01/24/still-no/
If their is now anybody in Scotland who still seriously thinks London will treat Scotland OK, then today makes it clear, that it won’t. To London/England eyes, Scotland is irrelevant (aside from the revenue and oil monies thay have stolen for forty years). Scotland is a mere colony in every sense of the word – something NOT envisaged by the treaty of union.
This near daily p*ssing on Scotland by London, is EXACTLY what they did to Ireland, and which eventually led to the armed fight for independence for Ireland to get rid of
BritishEnglish rule from London. It does seem London has forgotten its own history.Scotland is England’s last colony, and it will not easily let go. Those who run Westminster see Scotland as a possession of England, with the people who live here, merely a nuisance. That is how these c**ts see us.
It is now abundantly clear that Independence is the only way out of this madness. Scotland needs to be free of these corrupt lying scum in London.
Heh, heh, it’s a really bad day for the Proud Scot Buts. Their noses are being rubbed in it. Hopefully enough of them will now wise-up.
Sneery Prof T is at least up-front about it all, Smith was a total con and designed by the Unionists precisely as such. Devo-Micro. (As we here all well knew.) While the best that Whiney K can muster for the present occasion is “eat your cereal and shoosh”. Pathetic.
Chick McGregor says:
the Supreme Court rules that Scotland cannot unilaterally become independent.?
???
?????
Completely lost me there, we will do what now? If and they will not, not now not ever, but just say they did, of course the SC would rule it was not within its competence! that’s what the word unilateral means!.
If you want UDI you have to back it up, and I mean back it up, saying some judges in another country don’t like it so we have to stop is ridiculous!
A declaration of UDI by a minority would all but guarantee that violence erupts in Scotland. I want no part of any of that.
Either our argument is persuasive enough to win enough support in a democratic vote on a second referendum or it is not. George Square on 19th September 2014 was nothing in comparison to a declaration of UDI.
Be careful what you wish for else you may carry regret for the rest of your lives. UDI is basically a declaration of war and lives will be lost. Nothing is worth that, not even Independence.
Holyrood is devolved and has no power other than spending the Barnet pocket money that Westminster doles out. The battle to disengage Scotland from England’s grip is at Westminster. Our MPs must use their powers as the representatives for our country dating from the 1707 Union to dissolve that Union. Either resign and stand for Independence or invoke the dissolution of the Act.The Irish walked away from Britain, we should do the same.
@Robert Peffers
Yes, that was my sardonic or sarcastic point!
It seems the 11 UKSC Justices, the highest in “the” land, don’t actually know what the UK in UKSC actually means. They think it means England, and that’s official from their point of view.
I think they need to explain themselves.
The remaining WOS archive links for March 2013 now over on O/T.
Something worth pondering.
IndyRef2 and the plans to have one, and the campaigning, will be concurrent with the UK and the EU negotiating leaving terms, possibly also trade arrangements. IR2 will be before we leave, that looks more and more certain.
We will have the situation where a the duly elected Scottish government and a majority of the Scottish parliament, are acting in response to the democratically expressed will of the people to stay in the EU. We are EU citizens who wish to remain so.
Does anyone honestly thing that these two mammoth constitutional upheavals won’t become intertwined?
Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will be part of the talks. The UK may not want Scotland to be considered as a similar issue, but while we are openly saying we want to decide on our future in the EU, does anyone think the EU will ignore the Scottish situation?
The UK may not like to think it, but this is not 1950s colonial Africa. This is all happening within a democratic Europe. Scotland’s wishes will be heard and acted upon.
If we do vote NO again, then we are undoubtedly the biggest fools on the planet!
@Desimond 4:03pm
“Do any votes in Holyrood matter now?”
Do any votes in Westminster matter now? At least today has been another step towards the accepted perception-to-be that Westminster is now the enemy of Scotland and the union with England is finished. It will become even more apparent as brexit takes hold. I suppose we have to thank the continuing arrogance and ignorance of britnat Westminster for some of that. Thankfully they show no sign of abating. The union with England will end primarily because of the actions of Westminster. The final throw of the britnat dice will be when they try to instigate violence in Scotland. Then we will know we have won.
Given EVEL is based on the idea that Westminster MPs don’t get to vote on devolved issues it’s clear from this ruling that that is a fallacy. As such SNP MPs must insist on sitting in the debates, taking part in them and voting in them. Obviously the tellers can simply ignore them and the Speaker might refuse to let them be heard. However until such times as the HoC goes beyond simply fiddling the rules so as to give more than a veto, which Holyrood no longer has, to English and Welsh MPs such actions might be seen as illegal. Westminster can still pass legislation in devolved matters. Scotland’s MPs must be allowed to do so for England and Wales. Otherwise we all know that the way it’ll play out is that it’ll be all decided for there according to EVEL. Then the same decision might be imposed on Scotland with little to no consultation.
Can the dissolution of Scotland be taken to the European Court before March?
@Alba46 says: 24 January, 2017 at 11:08 am:
“I welcome the ruling of the Supreme Court that Scotland does not have a say in the UK constitutionally.”.
As do I, Alba46.
” … It clarifies once and for all that we are nothing more than a subservient part of the greater UK and not a country in its own right.”
No! I cannot go along with that concept – and for good reason. First, as the United Kingdom only has two actual kingdoms as partners, if Scotland is NOT an equally sovereign partner then there is no United Kingdom.
Secondly a Kingdom is not necessarily a country nor a country a Kingdom. The title United Kingdom thus does not make the UK a country never mind a united country.
It is, as its name claims, A kingdom. If it is not now united, and as it only had two equally sovereign partners, then it no longer exists but returns to its per-union status. Two equally Sovereign Kingdoms. Republicanism is a different issue.
” … The bulls**t that has been used by the Uk government and slavishly repeated by an in house propaganda media (bbc and print) prior to the referendum in 2014 and continued since ie we are an important part of the UK, we are equal partners, we should help to lead the UK has been exposed for what it is, utter garbage.”
Very True.
” … Will be interesting to see the reaction of the unionist parties in Scotland to this ruling. As for the SNP they need to get of their ar** and start being much more radical than they have been so far.”
All we will get by acting like bulls at a gate is the, “BRITISH”, army, navy and air force treating us like Iraq.
“The YES movement in general and the SNP in particular need to take a much more aggressive stance when dealing with the uk government and with the media both print and TV. I say that as a card carrying member of the SNP.”
Yes indeed. Like the card carrying members of those in the 1800s who incited them to fight the Unionist troops and then vanished.
Believe me the Establishment only needs a slim excuse. They built an Empire on violence and slaughter. Ask the miners, ask the striking Dockyard workers from Rosyth.
I’m willing to die for Scotland but I’m now willing to senselessly die for Scotland. We are winning our freedom our way but we will fail if we attempt to win it their way.
All evidence show that Nicola and the SG know what they are doing. We really must trust and support them.
The only thing that surprises me is how genuinely upset a lot of people who were federalists (and voted no) are today. Apparently they believed the ‘Vow.’ Well you learn something new every day. I’ve felt more like a grief counsellor in a couple of groups I’m part of today than part of the opposition.
I’m not enjoying it, some of these people really have had their illusions shattered, but there is also an opportunity here, a lot of eyes and minds might have been wrenched open today and people I would not have thought possible are now indicating that they are willing to reconsider their stance on independence.
@rmfbrown says: 24 January, 2017 at 11:09 am:
” … We owe the judges a debt of gratitude because now we have it in black and white.”
There is a name for what the judges did, rmfbrown. It was used by the defence at the Nuremburg Trials. It didn’t go down too well there either.
One way, a big way, they’ll try to win ref 2, total obliteration of anything Scotland, let alone Scottish democracy. Spot any front page Graun giving Scotland and SCourt any mention today? Zero.
http://archive.is/97SSX
So, Scottish friends, did you hear Ian Duncan Smith on the World At One?
Scotland will be consulted but “we are leaving”. Yes, children, Mummy and Daddy have decided. No, it’s not an equal partnership. Wherever did you get that idea?!
At least you haven’t been portrayed as gorillas with shillelaghs for wanting to run your own country. But how much more of this can you put up with?
@Ellie
“but there is also an opportunity here, a lot of eyes and minds might have been wrenched open today and people I would not have thought possible are now indicating that they are willing to reconsider their stance on independence.”
Well that is some good news Ellie and it warms my heart. Anyone else got some good news?
Graun liggers SCourt Brexit opinions, all England, Scotland, zero,
http://archive.is/KkjcS
Panel verdict: the supreme court decision on article 50
Polly Toynbee: Taking back control begins here
That is the final straw. Westminster Government has no respect for Scotland.The time has come to be free from the UK and repeal the Act of Unions. I do not believe a referendum will help to make Scotland free again!
Lets just walk away from the UK in the same way the tories are leaving the EU: just walk out of it, the hard way.
It needs bravery and vision for an alternative to tory or labour rule from London at least the Scottish Government will be based in Scotland!BREXIT is the wish of England, let them have it without Scotland.
PS I am not Scottish nor English, I just find it unfair,unjust and arrogant to treat a brother nation like this.
That Derek Bateman piece nearly had me in tears.
I’m guessing you guys all know a few letterboxes that this could be posted through. Stick it on billboards. Shame them into growing some and vote for a positive future for Scotland next time.
Otherwise you AND me are all in for endless extreme right wing Tory governments trying to out UKIP UKIP in order to keep the ‘right’ Right elite establishment in power. With not a care for any of the devolved countries.
It seems that you can’t rely on the MSM to do anything for you. Billboards, leaflets, a ‘why we should and could be a normal self governing country’ TV channel and of course another Book of some dark colour!
(Can they not use self governing instead of independent on the next ballot paper…how could folk say No to something so normal?)
http://derekbateman.scot/2017/01/24/still-no/
I do not recognize the UK supreme court even its name is an affront,it is no more than another cog in the britnats evil plan to make Scotland and England cease to be nations so the nazi yoon zoomers can all hail the one nation of Britain,oh yes English people your identity is being subverted as well.
Bunch of screaming lunatics still the outcome was much as suspected judge says blah blah waffle slither shifty wee look sits on the fence has a dither then remembers the tories pay his wages and its just a mickey mouse court anyway.
Still it was what we hoped would happen lol,by taking A50 to the UK chicken supreme court all mayhem has done is buy some time in Europe but at the cost of having to tell Scotland we do not get a say in this better together best of both world.
Devolution is a lie!
indyref2 as soon as Mayhem and her band of eton zoomers sign A50 please Nicola,give us a good 9-12 months campaign this old activist is champing at the bit to get wired right in about them.
Lochside 4.12pm my thoughts exactly. It’s now time for the snp in Westminster to declare they refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the Westminster(English)government.walk out en masse,and force by elections in Scotland , with udi as their manifesto. Finish this union farce one way or the other.
Devo-Maxers, Soft-NOs – Time to Choose…
http://imgur.com/a/nhVTc
I stated this in last month’s thread and was criticised by certain elements who have dominated these threads with pointless meanderings about popes and monarchs. I believe it sums up the reality of what we are facing:
The Acts of Union of 1706/7 were just a rubber stamp to de facto attempt to incorporate Scotland into England. Our aristocracy, church of Scotland. and legal system have colluded ever since to allow this. The 19th century and 20th century unionist party system accelerated the process. Blair forced into devolution by the EU set up the Supreme Court in an attempt to undermine Scots law’s authority. All to a deafening silence from ‘our’ judiciary. The Devolved Parliament is just that: devolved. That is its power is retained by Westminster. The only way we can dissolve this perfidious union is to have our MPs, (not MSPs) initiate a dissolution of the Act of 1707. The Monarchy is of no consequence. Power resides in Westminster. That is why the Supreme Court and all the rest is glove puppetry set up to distract from the iron fist holding us by the balls in the Palace of Westminster.
Remember every ‘Enquiry’ that has threatened Westminster’s standing has failed to undermine its power. Chilcot could have and should have led to an indictment of Tony Blair for genocide. It voted against it. The legal system of England is enmeshed with the judiciary and the executive. They are as one. We will gain nothing until the Scottish party in Westminster exerts its sovereign right to dissolve the Union. This it is entitled to do based on a referendum of the Scottish people endowing the sovereignty, the authority, for our representatives to achieve this.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/24/nicola-sturgeon-need-new-independence-referendum-now-ever-clearer/
poll here asking if there should be another indyref currenty 47% in favour 53% against
It’s time for a
New Declaration of SCOTTISH SOVEREIGNTY.
To the Right Honourable President of the European Union, Mr. Joseph Muscat and …( the rest of the world)
We the people of Scotland have ascertained since 1320, that we are a Sovereign People.
Since 1707, following the Acts and Treaty of Union with the Kingdom of England, we, as a Sovereign nation, forming the Kingdom of Scotland, entered into a joint and equal bi-partite Union with the said kingdom of England to form a new United Kingdom.
we then set out our argument and intention to re-assert that Sovereignty by re-establishing our independence owing to the terms of the Union being breached by the Brexit scenario.
signed ….Nicola Sturgeon and two million Scots people. QED
orri @ 4.30pm
You raised the issue of SNP MPs participating in EVEL debates. This is an important area in which they must fight.
AS I understand it, there is nothing in HoC rules to prevent the SNP members from attending EVEL debates andparticipating, but, their votes will not count.
I may be in a minority in this, but, in the pre-devolution days, when the House sat as The Scottish Grand Committee, the same rules applied – English MPs could attend and, if called, could speak, but, they could not vote. We cannot object if the same thing happens in reverse with EVEL.
As I understand it, after the English MPs have scrutinised the bill under EVEL, before that bill passes into law, it has to go back to a sitting of the full HoC for ratification, when, the Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh MPs can vote.
IN theory, at that point bad decisions made by the English MPs under EVEL can be overturned.
In reality because the House of Commons, with first past the post, is a parliamentary dictatorship, so long as the government party has an overall majority and an efficient whips office, whatever is decided under EVEL will get through.
So, the SNP MPs have no option but to attend the EVEL sittings, be as disruptive as they can be and fight them every inch of the way.
Not even our supplicant, Unionist media can ignore such guerilla war, hard though it will be for the SNP to keep it going.
It would help if the Scottish Government business managers at Holyrood co-operated by lobbing “soft” questions at Nicola Sturgeon at FMQs, so the unfair rules at WEstminster are all too clear to the people of Scotland. In time, this will register.
Update at last …
http://www.snp.org/supreme_court_brexit_ruling_what_it_means
“ We will also seek to ensure that, in the event that Theresa May walks away without any deal, the UK falls back to the status quo and membership of the EU. ”
Nice one. It will be rejected as an amendment, of course. But it set up a good position to call Indyref2.
@Ellie
Yes, gently does it, just a wee prod in the right direction. I’m going to put together a wee composite of the Smith report about Sewel, the Scotland Act that incorporates it, and the UKSC ruling today – and post it occasionally here and there. Sounds like a plan!
And May’s ignorant, clod hopping foot strikes again.
The Dail invited her to speak (excellent timing, my countryfolk), and she has refused.
We know she spouts rancid, Britnat hypocrisy, but how rude!!
@Gerry
660 YES votes needed to get a majority on that Telegraph poll. Can Wings do it …
check out Joanna Cherry’s twitter feed. She’s on the case 🙂
This is democratic position today,
“The Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum…if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out the EU against our will.”
It says “Such as”, not “only if”, what about the circumstance of the abolition of Holyrood,previously devolved powers over fishing, or agriculture, not being returned, in fact anything.
“There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures.”
Time is running out for the union, dammed if they do dammed if they don’t.
And you don’t need a supreme court to tell you that!
Britnat press won’t report this. Tezza turns down Irish Dail invite.
https://twitter.com/KevDoyle_Indo/status/823908678227009538
Steady on folks, this does not mean anything like Scotland cannot enact its sovereignty. Quite the reverse.
It might however pull the wings off Holyrood, no longer having it masquerade as a parliament which by definition is a sovereign seat of government, which Holyrood clearly is not. I don’t like the word masquerade, because a great number of people have faith and love for their parliament, but we are all guilty of letting this ambiguity of status fester much too long.
The Scot Gov must now place our fate in the hands of our champions of Scots Law, and tell us, in forensic detail, how we as a population enact the true, Scottish constitutional sovereignty which has been dormant for 310 years. Have it secure that vital commodity of international recognition.
Westminster has no fear of any referendum set in motion by Holyrood; Westminster owns Holyrood. Have our elected MP’s and MSPs assemble somewhere away from Westminster and away from Holyrood and recall the genuine first sitting Scotland’s sovereign parliament for over 3 centuries. There is nothing Westminster can do to obstruct it.
Whatever we can salvage from Holyrood is a matter for the constitutional audit, but what is left inside Holyrood is insignificant beside what we take out of Holyrood, and that is any and every pretence that either Holyrood or Westminster speaks with the sovereign voice of Scotland.
A true Scottish government, democratically elected and invoking Scots Law and Scottish sovereignty cannot be subjugated by Westminster.
I don’t know whether such an act formally end the Act of Union. It seems Westminster can break the spirit of the Act of Union at random and get away with it. So just do it. Reform a Scottish parliament beyond the influence of Holyrood and Westminster, and let Westminster fret about what it means, and have Westminster declare the Union defunct.
About 500 votes now need to make it YES.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/24/nicola-sturgeon-need-new-independence-referendum-now-ever-clearer/
14231 votes cast. My guess is a lot more than just Scottish Yessers are saying Yes here.
For those not on Twitter. Joanna asking the difficult questions.
https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/823939422425063424
Whilst I understand the frustration, the several comments here today in support of UDI are to my mind very unhelpful. They offer on a plate to Unionist activists quotes to beat us up with in the media.
Any expressed approval for a UDI is unlikely to persuade readers who are ‘soft No’s’ from 2014 and may well also be a turn-off for Yes voters concerned that independence is only worth having – is only a legitimate aspiration – if it can be achieved democratically and peacefully. As we know, there are already Unionists seeking to stoke up the ‘Ulsterisation’ fear. Let’s not walk into their traps.
This is a time for steady nerves and yes, still some patience. It is also in my view a time to re-state our commitment to democratic, peaceful change. If we cannot win the argument for independence during an IndyRef2 campaign given the current circumstances and given the evidence of what has come to pass since 2014, then, candidly, I despair for Scotland and its people. If not this time, then when?
She’s rude to refuse an invitation to speak to the Dáil, but it was also the wrong time to ask her. Apart from the fact that there would be a very embarrassing contrast with her reception and that given to Nicola Sturgeon a few weeks ago in the Seanad, she can’t answer the inevitable questions about Brexit in front of Dáil Éireann when she hasn’t answered them in front of the House of Commons first.
@Valerie 5:08pm
May realizes she’d be asked about the brexit border issue in Ireland and she knows she doesn’t have an answer which doesn’t contradict her statements about the border between Scotland and England post-brexit. She also knows she hasn’t a clue about the situation in Stormont. No, she just wants to be patted on the backside by Trump.
Spent an hour or two catching up – been out since 9.40am
thought the SC would deny the Prerogative and also thought they would back off from the constitutional issue but didn’t think they would cloud the water this much!
Not sure i accept their argument inPara 44 when they quote Dicey..”no person or body is recognised by the law of England as having a right or the power to over ride or set aside the legislation of Parliament’
Also, quoting the 11th century?
What happened to the clause that ‘Scots Law will be respected in perpetuity.’
Sunniva @ 10.57am
Think they were a bit selective when they quoted Section18 of the Act of Union at the end of paragraph 44 as there clearly is a qualifying condition on that Section which it appears they have chosen to ignore…
” That the Laws concerning the regulation of Trade, Customs and such Excises… to be the same in Scotland .. as in England..alterable by the Parliament of Great Britain with this difference betwixt the laws which concern public Right, Policy and Civil Government and those that concern private Right That the Laws that concern Public Right may be made the same throughout the whole United Kingdom but that no alteration be made in Laws which concern private Right except for evident utility of the subjects within Scotland.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/section/XVIII
Surely our human Rights are protected by section 18 and we an go the European courts.
Yes indyref2 @10.55
Para 141 onwards is where they wash their hands of the constitution saying that it is not for the legal system to make the laws.
They also argue that section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998 provides that the section empowering the Scottish Parliament to make Laws” does not affect the power of the UK to make Laws for Scotland”.. wonder what the remainder of that section says?
Sewel said in parliament that ..’we would expect a convention to be established that WM would not normally legislate in devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament…’
This was supposedly consolidated in the Scotland Act 2016 .. although my understanding is that the Scottish Government may still be questioning that point???
Para 149..The SC says that they are in no doubt that it is meant to be the convention.
Para 141 onwards is where they wash their hands of the constitutional matters.
Para 149 says that the Scottish parliament is permanent and cannot be got rid of without a referendum of the Scottish people – so that squashes any rumour that TMay will try to get rid of Holyrood after Brexit.
Does the existence of the Supreme Court and it’s supremacy not breach the Treaty of Union by challenging the independence of Scots Law?
LBC ars asking for Scots. Welsh and Irish to phone in about the union. Just had some tool say we are too poor. Any wingers keen to put him right??
@ Meg merrilees
Does the existence of the Supreme Court and it’s supremacy not breach the Treaty of Union by challenging the independence of Scots Law
In one word yes.
Hi Breeks, we actually agree on this, we will never achieve Independence if we allow westminster the authority to refuse it.
Our politicians should be advocating that we are equal because of the Treaty of Union,which England signed, and not because may or Cameron said that is the way we should be treated.
The Treaty of Union, not the Acts are key.
It was only a matter of time before the thread was spoiled by direct links to BUM rags. Yes, lets all click on the BUM rags’ link and contribute to their advertising revenues so they can continue to pay churnalists to shite all over Scotland. Yeh, that’ll bring us our independence, not!
“…Just had some tool say we are too poor…”
How do these idiots think the UK can borrow money on the international money markets to the tune of £1.6 trillion and climbing? What does this tool think the UK is using as collateral backing for those loans – Scottish mist?
No – Scottish oil. Without Scotland’s vast black gold reserves, the UK would be able to borrow zilch! They are using Scotland’s resources to put themselves AND Scotland in hoc.
Wallopers!
@Andrew McLean says: 24 January, 2017 at 11:11 am:
” … This is one area where unionist are week and will try to cause discord.”
Oh! That’s the old game, Andrew. This SC decision is a game changer. Although not in so many words the SC has just handed down what most independence Scots knew in their inner hearts was going to be the truth but dreamt that it would be different. I believe the SG and SNP party leaders were several jumps ahead of Westminster.
I believe the clearly saw this coming. I know I did. Thing is I believe, if handled right, it was an open trap for Westminster to blindly walk into. What the Judges have done is to set a legal precedent that the Westminster Parliament has legal sovereignty, (which, as a matter of fact it does indeed have — over the three country Kingdom of England — and it has that legal sovereignty over England’s kingdom from before the Treaty of Union but after the Glorious Revolution of England’s Kingdom.
If you know your history you will know that the Glorious Revolution was when the English Parliament rebelled against the Monarch of England and deposed them. However, in 1688, The three country Kingdom of England was still an independent Kingdom with a monarch who also wore the crown of the also independent Kingdom of Scotland and in 1688 the rule of Law in England was still, “Divine Right of Kings”. Under which law a monarch who inherited another Kingdom just added it to his/her existing Kingdom but history tell us that in spite of English claims of a Union of the Crowns in 1603 no United Kingdom resulted.
Thus it was only a personal United Kingdom of James I of England which is why he was designated as James I & VI.
James I was the first Stewart king of England and Ireland from 1603 to 1625 and VII king of Scotland from 1567 to 1625. He was the son of Mary Queen of Scots and he succeeded Elizabeth I: However, he alienated the English Parliament, (The English quote that as he alienated the British Parliament)(, by claiming the divine right of kings (1566-1625).
But no such Parliament of Britain existed then. The Scottish Kingdom and Scottish Parliament continued to be independent. Which was why the English forced the Scots into signing the Treaty of Union in 1706. (If there had been a British Parliament why would they have needed a Treaty of Union?
So, in 1688 the English Parliament revolted against James II of England and deposed him as King of the three country Kingdom of England. This began the Jacobite uprisings that England call the Jacobite rebellion but you cannot rebel against a king who is not your own and the English Kingdom was still slaughtering innocent non-combatant Scots in 1545, at Culloden, long after the Treaty of Union was signed.
So just what is different now when a Westminster set-up court ignores the truth and continues the lies that England extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland in 1707 and renamed itself The United Kingdom?
In effect, in English eyes, there never was a Treaty of Union of two equally Sovereign Kingdoms – even although the documentation says there was and is.
I believe that Westminster is taking a risky gamble that the EU and other parties will side with Westminster and accept that the United Kingdom is just shorthand for United Country and the member of their particular organ is a country called the United Kingdom.
However, I believe the EU is not going to do so and will for the first time in history, (because they all now have their own axes to grind), will take Scotland’s side and rule the UK as a bipartite Kingdom that contains 4 countries but only two kingdoms.
This is the gamble. If they do it solves the EU’s dilemma and the have a bonus of ditching the thorn in their side that was the Westminster Parliament. It suits also many other countries and World organs like the UN, WTO and perhaps NATO. If just one sides with Scotland then the thing will snowball for after the USA the most hated World power is The United Kingdom.
There is now no doubt that Westminster is bidding to be the UK and Scotland is going to leave behind an rUK but if the UK is a bipartite union then there can be no UK on two kingdoms splitting up.
Smith Commission Report: “22. The Sewel Convention will be put on a statutory footing”
Scotland Act 1998 amended for Sewel: “(8) But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.”
UKSC Ruling: “The Sewel Convention has an important role in facilitating harmonious relationships between the UK Parliament and the devolved legislatures. But the policing of its scope and the manner of its operation does not lie within the constitutional remit of the judiciary, which is to protect the rule of law”
Scotland devolutionists have been fooled again.
Meg merrilees says:
24 January, 2017 at 5:22 pm
“”Spent an hour or two catching up – been out since 9.40am
thought the SC would deny the Prerogative and also thought they would back off from the constitutional issue but didn’t think they would cloud the water this much!
Not sure i accept their argument inPara 44 when they quote Dicey..”no person or body is recognised by the law of England as having a right or the power to over ride or set aside the legislation of Parliament’
Also, quoting the 11th century?””
……..
I think they are talking about the law of England here and the 11th Century because they are dealing specifically with the action that was brought by Ms Millar in an English Court and it was the judgement of that English Court that was being appealed.
The NI, Scotland and Welsh submissions were separate to that original judgement in an Englsih Court and were argued on the position of each of the devolved entities and as such dealt with separately later in the judgement.
Joanna Cherry in her element at WM apparently.
Just given Lynn Truss a ‘forensic’ roasting on Sewel convention and Great repeal bill, also holding forth on SKY news.
Don’t worry we are saved
With the “Vow”
Whit ye mean it was always a load of guff. Even if you want Scotland out of the EU & out of th Union you need to vote for Indy 2 first
@Golfnut says: 24 January, 2017 at 11:16 am:
“No way back for them now, Westminster and their legal lapdogs might well have torn up their copy of the Treaty of Union, but we still have ours.”
It is even much better than that, Golfnut.
There is only one Treaty of Union but there are two separate Acts of Union. Not only that but the English Parliament that passed their act of Union sat officially and would itself up.
The Scots MPs never got round to winging up the old Scottish parliament as they would have been lynched if the Scots had got hold of them so the Scots parliament was prorogued. That is never actually dissolved. Them Winnie Ewing declared that Holyrood was the Old Scots parliament reconvened.
Point is the only thing that remotely could be claimed as the present Westminster Parliament being a continuation of the parliament of England was because it sat in the same building as the old parliament of England.
LBC- finally – a great guy on from Glasgow – was No in 2014, then Remain – now a yesser. making excellent points.
Have discovered that the Welsh cringe is even bigger – embarrassing.
Anyway away to plan an indy event – after reading up on the brilliant Joanna Cherry
The London Supreme Court was set up by murderer Blair who caused the migration crisis in Europe with his lies and illegal wars. The Court was set up to try and delay the rights of EU citizens in Britain to appeal to the EHRC. Set up by Westminster Labour/Unionists.
legerwood
I agree. They are taking about the Law of England, but for me the tell tale sign is that they do not specify that this information would only apply in England, under English Law and was pre-Union.
The other statement about no-one being recognised as having the power ” under English law” to over-ride parliament also points to their narrow, Anglo-centric view.
A balanced judgment should clarify that this was only legally valid in England and should present the equivalent legislative statute under Scots Law – but that balance is not evident.
Plus they seem to take a very selective view of Section 18 of the Treaty of Union that says WM can make rules over Scotland – WM can only legislate on matters of Laws on Trade, Customs and Excise and public Right. Private Right of Scots can only be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament.
This judgment denies me my private Rights, and my European rights, therefore I reject it twice.
MRFD…
http://imgur.com/a/EvRuo
I don’t agree that, as things stand, Scotland’s MPs are the ones who’d necessarily represent Scotland if it came to dissolving the 1707 Act of Union within Scotland. The oft quoted Mundell declaration is based on an out of context scenario in a government paper only introduced in order that it could be dismissed by the authors. The essence of the manifesto that won the SNP the election that led to Indyref1 was that they inherit the position of the pre union Scottish Parliament and if a referendum result endorsed it would negotiate independence.
However the Supreme Court have now effectively acknowledged that the result of a positive result in a future independence referendum would mean Scotland would no longer be under their jurisdiction. As such it follows that regardless of whether the rUK was a sole continuation of the UK or not Holyrood legislating a second referendum would have no effect on the constitution of the UK. Just as with the AV legislation Holyrood could pass an act that only triggers after a positive result. So in theory a repeal of the Scottish half of the Acts of Union and a formal declaration of withdrawal from the Treaty they embody provided that’s the will of the electorate of Scotland is within Holyrood’s remit. As at that point Scotland would no longer be part of the UK it’d be up to whatever was left behind to remove any territorial claim to the newly independent sovereign state of Scotland. Just as the ROI didn’t actually change the UK Constitution when it declared UDI.
@yesindyref2 says: 24 January, 2017 at 11:46 am:
“Useless SNP website, absolutely crap, not even a reference on it I can find, but there is this:”
yesindyref2 says:
24 January, 2017 at 11:46 am
Useless SNP website, absolutely crap, not even a reference on it I can find, but there is this:
Have not you guys and gals had your email from Nicola yet?
I got mine some hours ago.
Legerwood..
Sorry, didn’t read your post correctly, ignore the first bit of my reply above.
Brexit will be a series of kicks in the teeth for the Scottish people, their stated will though the ballot box, our economy, for their feelings about Europe and being European and our position in the world.
Scots are rapidly approaching the conclusion their opinions are irrelevant to our ‘equal partner?” England.
Independence is the only option!
Wise up?..
NO VOTERS need to grow up, first.
@Robert Peffers
Nope. Didn’t get the last one days ago either. Also had to chase up my vote for the depute leadership. And I don’t have a “spam” folder!
It’s up to 48% for a second Indy Ref from 47%, but still over 600 votes needed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/24/nicola-sturgeon-need-new-independence-referendum-now-ever-clearer/
It would be a GIRFUY to have the Telegraph of all rags, having a poll which showed a majority in favour of IR2!
Robert Peffers @4.40pm
You stated:-
“Yes indeed. Like the card carrying members of those in the 1800s who incited them to fight the Unionist troops and then vanished.
Believe me the Establishment only needs a slim excuse. They built an Empire on violence and slaughter. Ask the miners, ask the striking Dockyard workers from Rosyth”
You have missed the point entirely. You appear to hint that I advocate violence. Having served nearly 20 years in the army including numerous tours in Northern ireland in the 70’s, violence solves absolutely nothing. It merely promotes division and hatred. I revisited NI 3 years ago and the hatred and sectarianism still is alive and well after all these years.
The point that I was making was that we must be more aggressive in dealing with the english government, newspapers and much more forthright in TV interviews and not allow the interviewer to talk over the points being made.
Agree with previous comments re the SNP website. To put it bluntly it is dire. They have loads of money from their membership and could easily employ somebody to come up with a much more dynamic and hard hitting website.
I agree with all the voices stating that the SNP now need to step up a gear.
The SNP need to show people where we really stand (in interviews, broadcasts etc) in plain language. Show what this means and the consequences to ordinary people.
When, and only when the message finally sinks in, open the door to an alternative future.
Scottish Govt. should go above UKSC and take it to the ECJ on the basis that LCM cannot simply be ignored.
That’d set the heather alight. Can you imagine the reaction of the Brit-Nat MSM and the State Broadcaster in particular!
I think we need to take a step back and take stock.
Much will be made of this ruling by those people who oppose Scottish independence. But we are surely not surprised.
I am not going to give up – ever – far less in response to the pontifications of an English court. Are you? I thought not. And nor are those other Scots who like us are committed to Scotland being a civilised and independent country.
Ultimately it falls to the SNP (together with the Greens and other political groupings which are committed to independence) ie the political representatives of Scotland, to make independence happen. To achieve this they have to have the majority support of the Scottish electorate and a mandate to negotiate independence.
Do they have a legal right to do this?
I believe they do. After all, the SNP isn’t a devolved political party – unlike Slab and the other Scottish Tory parties.
I have confidence that the SNP are following a well considered and constantly reviewed course of action that will lead to a successful conclusion.
I agree with much of what Lochside said earlier.
I’m not even sure I agree with parliamentary sovereignty on this issue, I’m with Lord Cooper.
We are where we are, Westminster institutions assert their primacy, assert it. Doesn’t make it right of course. We can argue the logical detail but they claim the right to set the rules.
I like the idea of a logical, mechanistic law, where we could argue from first principles & get determinable answers. But human affairs often throw up issues which a formal legal system cannot easily handle.
And that’s a lesson for us – and a benefit, because ultimately law is a product of politics, exercise political power & you win.
That’s what we need to do, it’s what all the colonies did.
Real power cannot be given, it must be taken.
We’ve had the Supreme Court tell us we’re nowt, so, looks like carte blanche at WM. Here’s how the Speaker in that place talks to Scotland:
https://www.facebook.com/IanBlackford.SNP/videos/1083248448463649/
Robert Peffers..’..the only thing that remotely could be claimed as the present Westminster Parliament being a continuation of the parliament of England was because it sat in the same building as the old parliament of England.’
So Robert..a bit like Rangers then. The Unionist mould.
Playing to the same-old galleries, memories, victories, the greatness of it all.
Clinging, to unearned respect.
Dragging each subsequent generation into a gutter of its own making.
We can all see it now.
Surely if the judgement is centred on English law, the SG have a right to take this to the European court?
It is obvious we will get NO justice within the UK
Another 1,000 votes, still 48% 🙁
It’s strange how you have to vote again to see the status …
Re. Supreme Court. What a bunch of ignorant arseholes. In Britain its call it patriotism, anyone human would probably call it slavery.
http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf
RE SNP website.
It should stay like that until we get independence,i do not want my government using it without the proper Scottish control on cyber security,may as well write it on a letter to the Chinese,Russians,USA,and the scumbags spooks from the UK.
And even if they did try to dev it professionally you just know it would get attacked mercilessly.
Absolutely no surprise at the outcome, Scotland getting any say what so ever in the Ruling empire??? NO CHANCE.
Expect Jaky Turd on “The Only Way is Shortbread”( about as realistic and factual as its namesake,) giving it big sneering and blaming the SNP for the catastrophe that is coming.
If the whole of Scotland (whatever party)cannot wake up and see the total disregard of a nation, then “what’s the point of politics”?
Scottish Independence or get rid of the whole FCKING lot of them.
I won’t accept anything else.
Not so much a material change as a bombshell.
There is no U.K. parliament. The Treaty reads, the parliament will be known as The Parliament of Great Britian
Looks like C4 news tonight and Prof T, do not want a ref 2 soon. Prof Tomkins also has that incredible tory power of knowing what MOST people want. It is amazing power, mind reading, what toryboys have, with 4000 votes 😀
Why is yoon culture raging NO to ref 2 asap? Not scared are they.
Some links re today’s ruling
http://news.gov.scot/news/uk-supreme-court-ruling
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tories-burnt-scottish-electorate-brexit-second-independence-referendum-inevitable-1602821
https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/82672/nicola-sturgeon-challenges-scots-confront-case
http://www.stirlingsnp.com/snp-mp-calls-scottish-secretary-made-answerable-scotland/
@yesindyref2 –
16989 votes cast, now at 49% Yes
Jim Sillars also piling on with NO ref 2 soon on C4 fury at ref 2. Dirty business and Sillars was the SNP deputy leader in 1992! Cant even remember that far back. Something is up.
I don’t often comment. Indeed there’s been no much worth commenting on lately but this is important.
Those of you who oppose UDI, who wish to continue the “democratic” charade – do you imagine the other side observes such scrupulosity, such concern for the rules; do you really think they’ll give us a fair chance?
Indeed, the raison d’etre of this very site is just to expose the underhanded and deceitful nature and behaviour of those who wish to deny us our own precious sovereignty, who wish to efface our identity and replace it with some third-rate, squalid version of their own.
We need to take what is rightfully ours. We do not require their permission. Their laws and covenants are paper shackles. It is incumbent on each of us to take matters into our own hands now.
Our MPs should return to Scotland and begin the transition. Our taxes should remain unpaid until such time as our own government is in place. At this time, we should be putting in place a shadow government/ administration to take over as soon as possible.
This silly devolution game is over.
heedtracker says:
I reckon they will be more scared today than they were yesterday!
Not only are we another step closer to IndyRef2, but today’s events increased Yes support, ultimately.
Invert the logic. If the SC judges had declared that Holyrood effectively had a veto, that wouldn’t have helped much towards Indy!
Brexit ruling: Supreme Court decision could mean UK leaves EU after next election
http://archive.is/jkTCL
EU warns over trade threat to “orderly separation”
http://archive.is/uhibr
http://www.politico.eu/blogs/playbook-plus/2017/01/manfred-weber-trolling-uk-government-on-brexit/
Warning bad for the blood pressure.
https://twitter.com/030594dill/status/823929693103603713
David Cameron supposedly didn’t want to be remembered for being the UK PM responsible for Scotland tearing up the Union, and I’m as certain as I know tomorrow to be Wednesday that he thought he was off that particular hook when Betty Windsor was purring congratulations in is ear.
However, Mr Cameron, who was it who legislated for the EU referendum that showed Scotland her true place within your wonderful Union?
Time yet to be the PM who lost Scotland Mr Cameron, time yet…
Just to add to my earlier comment, I don’t think our SG had any option but to demonstrate playing by the rules & as someone who believes in popular sovereignty, I have sympathy with those 3 dissenting judges today. A referendum is a referendum.
It’s now up to Scots to decide how strongly they feel regarding their own sovereignty.
Channel 4 news……………just unbelievable. I am virtually speechless. Jim Sillars is shameless. What a complete load o keich that report was. How the hell are we going to counter this utter mince from now until whenever. It is relentless shite.
@Kenlike
The only referendum we had on Independence so far, 55% voted against. That’s a democratic majority.
If our MPs or MSPs went for UDI against the majoprity of the voters, I would persoanlly join the protest march of the NO voters on Holyrood against it. I would have a banner “YES to Democratic Independence, NO to UDI”.
I believe in Democracy, and the Rule of Law.
@People Carrier
Jim is all over the place now.
He was an architect of ‘ Independence in Europe’ years ago
galamcennalath says:
24 January, 2017 at 7:30 pm
heedtracker says:
Not scared are they.
They’re all screaming NO to ref 2 soon because they are shitting themselves after Brexit and Trump.
Exact same crew of yoons have raged at us since 2014 to hate the SNP, as hard as England grew to hate the EU and the “London elite” but its clearly not happening.
Tory nutters like my Slovene girlfriend would be raging away at us to HOLD resf 2 now, if they thought they could win. Its that yoon sneaky and creepy.
I widnae wirry aboot puir aul Sillers, he’s yesterday’s man. Correction: he’s the day before yesterday’s man. Let the britnat media believe him, nobody else does.
I’ve been reading WOS for a while now and have been considering making my first post; I think this day is more appropriate than most. Like many of you, I’m outraged by what we’ve seen today.
I didn’t vote in 2014 because I wasn’t living here. To be honest, I had never felt nationalistic until the day after the referendum; it was only then I realised how I really felt. But I’ll certainly be an extra Yes vote next time.
I knew my parents (and brother) were staunch unionists and generally didn’t bother talking to them about the issue after the last argument we had. But today, I asked them how they felt about it; and though I don’t think I’ll be able to convince them to put Scotland ahead of the union, at least they’ll know how strongly I feel about this.
One tip which I’ve realised after this discussion, which some of you might find useful, counters the immediate jump the unionists make to going on about the SNP – get right in there and tell them it’s not about parties. The dismissal of Scotland’s wishes in this unequal partnership would be as abhorrent today were the Tories in charge up here and Labour down there. This is not a strike against the SNP; this is a strike against Scotland itself.
Sorry for rambling, and thanks to all contributors for making me better aware of my country than ever before.
Just to hammer the final nail in the coffin of the UDI suggestion – you can’t realistically declare UDI without land reform. Around a dozen people own about half the land in Scotland, and I’d take a wild guess that those landowners aren’t SNP supporters. For even a peaceful UDI to succeed you’d have to make Scotland ungovernable, and that’s not possible while half the territory is owned by relatives of the Queen.
@Ian Brotherhood
Yes, 49%, only needs another 350 votes before the NOes get in. Let’s go!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/24/nicola-sturgeon-need-new-independence-referendum-now-ever-clearer/
Should there be another Independence Referendum?
Imagine this scenario:
So, let’s say it’s 2018 or 2019 and IndyRef2 is given the green light by the Scottish government ie the SNP and the Greens.
Then, Westminster says, ‘No, you cannot! To do so will be an illegal act!’
Yet, preparations are made in Scotland anyway for the referendum to take place.
Then Westminster goes, ‘If you go ahead with this referendum without Westminster’s consent, an illegal action in itself, and then continue to declare Yes as the victor and expect Scottish independence to follow in due course it will not be recognised by us by any means and, hence, totally illegal and non-binding. And we’ll make sure that reminders will be made worldwide of its illegality!.’
And then Yes does indeed win the referendum.
Westminster holds out on its promise to not recognise the result and declares it illegal. They go, ‘Whether the result was Yes or not, we said beforehand that we did not recognise the legitimacy of the referendum, and that is still the case. Your declaration that Scotland is to be independent and outwith the UK holds no bearing in law. It will not happen, and trying to enforce its enaction will result in serious consequences!’
So the SNP and the Greens, as the Scottish government go, ‘Is that right, aye? Then you leave us no option than to declare UDI!’
UDI is declared despite Westminster’s threats and intransigence…
What then? Would rUK send in the troops? Maybe not, but it’s had form in this action and it just might. Would Westminster declare the Scottish governnent as now being unlawful and try to enforce its closure by use of said troops?…
Yes, fanciful maybe, but one never knows, does one?
But should it come to pass, what would *you* do then?
Would you join the others outside the Scottish parliament building resisting its closure… with whatever it took? Would you join the others confronting the occupying forces on the streets… with whatever it took? Well, would you? I know where I stand. Do you?…
That said, that scenario is very unlikely to become a reality. However, it only goes to show how many people in Scotland view Westminster and its dirty tricks and dark deeds shenanigans that the above possibility is looked upon as even being plausible.
May Scotland secure its independence democratically and peacefully, free from outside threats and menace. Let the people speak in hope, not fear.
Channel4 news
They are nothing if not predictable, who can we get to bash the SNP + Scotland in Europe, I know Jim Sillars! Get wise to the bullsh1t of the colonial brit media folks.
Yesindyref2
You claim to be of older stock. Remember when a majority of MP’s for independence would be enough ? So now you say you would march wth the Tories should UDi be declared.
The rule of Law tells you can’t March . What will you do?
@yesindyref2
You believe in abstractions and fairytales.
“British Democracy” is a legitimacy exercise. The “rule of law” is an arbitrary set of conventions to allow the powerful to maintain order and their property.
You haven’t answered the question. Can you trust the other side to play by the rules? We saw what happened during the last referendum. Every form of deceit and manipulation was practised as detailed ad nauseam on this very site.
Simply, if we play by their rules, we’ll always lose.
There seems to be rather a lot of wailing & gnashing of teeth here.
Is not the judgement of the SC exactly what was expected? May overreaching herself.Slapped down.
In regards to devolved issues this has laid bare the lies told by Westminster idiots signifying nothing.
Smith was ignored & this has been laid bare by the SC in terms of legality.Surely this is good.Look world & the EU in particular,look how Westminster operates.By a legal(or not)sleight of hand completely lies to Scotland.Is this not to be wondered at?
I hope this will bring many more towards viewing independence as the only way of escaping the lies of Westminster.
Sinn Féin should stand on one policy in the Stormont Election, Reunification with the Eire and therefore remaining in the EU.
I think they’d win a landslide.
All in all a good day. Yet more proof of Westminster britnat duplicity. More proof tomorrow from the britnat media. The so-called united kingdom continues to disintegrate. Sleep well.
Devolved Government only exists in Scotland because of the EU.
UK leaves EU via Brexit Westminster WILL abolish Holyrood.
Scotlands Politicians will never get the chance to win a vote for an Indy Ref in Westminster due to Unionist weight of numbers.
That’s our future if we don’t win a Yes vote in Indy Ref 2.
@Joemcg says: 24 January, 2017 at 2:38 pm:
“Undercover unionist? Aye Robert? Fed up with you insulting everyone that does not agree with you.”
So why be insulted? You did agree with the claims that were made by the Supreme Court did you not?
“Want some truth then?”
Why not I’m a great one for truth.
Your posts are boring as fuck and pure verbal diarrhoea”
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, Joemcg. Which, of course includes me. Now while I don’t get upset by your opinions you seem rather upset at mine.
“your daily pish about Scotland being sovereign has just been blown to (English) kingdom come.”
Actually it hasn’t but it seems YOU are convinced it has.
Your posts going on and on about ancient history are laughable and I cringe every time I see your name.”
Now there’s a thing. A person with a wee bit of sense would just scroll on past anyone they found to be uninteresting and read the things that interested them. Not Joemcg, though. Joemcg is like the guy with a tooth that needs filled who keeps putting the tip of his tongue to the cavity to see if it still hurts – and it always does. Thereby is madness. Doing the same painful thing over and over again to see if there will be a different result – and there never is.
“I wish you would do one to be honest and not assault my eyes any longer.”
As I said, it is not compulsory to read anyone’s comments. Only a fool keeps reading something they find unpleasant.
By the way, Joemcg. The laws of both England and Scotland were set many years ago. Both are progressions that change only slowly through the years. Matter of fact the Supreme Court has just been trawling through the laws of the Kingdom of England in order to do Scotland down. They know what you fail to grasp. A country that doesn’t know where it comes from doesn’t know where it is going.
Protect him all you want Peffers defenders but im heartily sick to the back teeth of his tedious musings.
I’m really amused at a numptie that is so bloody stupid that he keeps reading and getting upset by continuing to read things that upset him. BTW: I believe most commenters on Wings to be well above average intelligence and to have the good sense to ignore that which bothers them – there are though, exceptions to every rule and I think most commenters here know full well they need not defend me. I’m quite able to defend myself.
There is a very old saying – if you can’t stand the heat – stay out of the kitchen. Here’s another thought for you. You seem to have accepted at first reading that the SC has blown Scottish claims of sovereignty out of the water. You said so yourself. Yet here you are picking fights with me who has never accepted their claims and I never will.
Not to mention that the Westminster Propaganda machine has been doing just exactly what I have been doing. Keep telling the same thing over and over again until it is settled in the minds of the readers, listener and viewer.
Yet instead of getting insulted with them you take it out on me. Even when the SC has only said it once you agree with them.
BTW: I don’t insult folks for disagreeing with me. I might, though, insult those who disagree with my country and my countries government and my countries government is not Westminster.
Kenlike @ 20.06,
You may disparage “the rule of law” but what would you replace it with, pray? Rule of the mob? Rule of the oligarchs? Rule of vendetta?
This loose talk of UDI is based on a whole series of hypotheticals, none of which is remotely relevant right now. So I would be careful of disparaging others about “fairytales”.
It’s acceptance of the law, for all its imperfections, that stops us ending up like (say, to pluck out somewhere at random) Northern Ireland. Is that really what you are wishing for?
Some of this UDI stuff is beginning to smell a bit fishy to me.
Get real, people, there’s only one way to do this. There are no short cuts. You have to get enough people onside over indy by dint of persuasion of the case, which, as you damn well should know if you’re here, is a very sound one. That’s real sovereignty, and its unassailable.
There is no way any UK government would outright forbid indyref2, because the ban would immediately recruit loads more people for the indy cause. Give London credit for being rather more subtle than that.
@Dal Riata
There are two circumstances where UDI is justified. First is if a YES result of a legally held referendum is not honoured.
Second is if a referendum is denied when requested by the ScotGov with a majority in Holyrood, but only to actually hold a referendum to test the will of the Scottish people (who are sovereign).
@Hamish100
It wouldn’t be just “Tories”, nice emotive way of putting it. The Tories represented only 15% or so in Indy Ref 1, yte 55% voted NO, including around 14% of SNP voters.
And yes, against an undemocratic UDI I would march peacefully even if it was “unlawful”.
You’re probably right, same for the Welsh Assembly. Once Brexit begins to bite, they’ll use saving public money as a reason to scrap the devolved parliaments. I can just hear the emotional blackmail now – its either Holyrood goes or we’ll have to cut the health service, etc.
@Robert J
“Some of this UDI stuff is beginning to smell a bit fishy to me.”
Indeed. Rouse up the rabble, and get some quotes for the MSM.
@yesindyref2 says: 24 January, 2017 at 4:15 pm:
“Yes, that was my sardonic or sarcastic point!
Yes, I read it as such.
“It seems the 11 UKSC Justices, the highest in “the” land, don’t actually know what the UK in UKSC actually means. They think it means England, and that’s official from their point of view.”
I gathered that as well.
“I think they need to explain themselves.”
I’m certain that they will be made to eventually.
I don’t know if everyone has received their emails from Nicola yet but they are interesting. I did try a couple of times to post links that were referred to in the emails but had some problems with my internet connection.
http://snp.us5.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=2b450428af6ce0be79dc234fb&id=ce680ac709&e=0b3e55b32f
http://snp.us5.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=2b450428af6ce0be79dc234fb&id=90fdb17299&e=0b3e55b32f
And most of all her call to sign this pledge ;
http://www.snp.org/make_scotlands_voice_heard
When the legislation necessary for a 2ndIndy Ref goes through Holyrood. If Westminster tries to refuse. The Scottish Gov can appeal to the ECHR. The right to self determination (Human rights). Upheld in Scottish/UK/EU and International Law. UN. It was Scotland’s ‘sovereignty resides in the people’, under Scottish Law, claim in the Act of Union that allowed for IndyRef1. That Scotland should be treated equally forever. Guaranteed a separate legal system forever. Unless both counties representative came to a negotiated agreement.
People in Scotland appealed to the ECHR legislation for self determination. During the Devolution process and IndyRef1 consultation.
Scotland has come along way since 2000. More to go. People in Scotland have been fighting for Independence since 1928 and before. The last 15+ years has achieved even more. With more to come. It could be within the next two years to achieve Independence. That is quite a feat, finally coming to fruition.
@Robert Peffers –
Thanks for those links.
Very happily signed that ‘pledge’. Unfortunately, no clicker to indicate how many folk have done likewise.
I watched tonight’s C4 take on Scotland vs Brexit, and it was mostly a rather dismal affair. Crick asserting – without a shred of evidence, note! – that Scotland can supposedly afford indy even less than before, and interviewing (among a couple of others) some numpty who didn’t even seem to know what Brexit was.
And no, I don’t mean that decrepit back-stabbing anti-democratic hypocrite Sillars, whose egoistic little skit for every obliging yoon outlet is succeeding only in making me more and more annoyed. Talk about useful idiots – he is the self-serving nadir of useful idiots.
Then C4 followed up later with a piece about poor air quality “in the country”, then zoomed in to a coloured-in map of ENGLAND. Jeez, these people just can’t help themselves!
Contempt delivered as expected.
The supreme court ruling is an incredible gift, highly useful in exposing the Sewal Covention as ‘not worth the paper it is writen on’. Together with the false promises from Westminster.
I’m glad that is now crystal clear and recorded, sooner rather than later.
Nicola Stugeon is going from strength to strength = )
As are OUR team in Westminster.
I always thought the union would rue the day they cheated and lied to the People of Scotland = )
Everyone asking the SNP to step ups gear, get more interviews etc. The SNP release press reports every Friday, the media don’t publish them.
Wayhay, 51% in favour of Undy Ref 2 on the Telegraph!
Keep it going 🙂
Umm, typo, never mind, it’s a good’un
@orri says: 24 January, 2017 at 4:30 pm:
Scotland’s MPs must be allowed to do so for England and Wales. Otherwise we all know that the way it’ll play out is that it’ll be all decided for there according to EVEL. Then the same decision might be imposed on Scotland with little to no consultation.”
It is even simpler that, that, orri.
The very fact that Westminster is the only parliament of the country of England and claims to be also be the Parliament of the United Kingdom is bad enough.
When it splits up the United Kingdom as separate countries except for England and treats only England as the United Kingdom and then bars everyone else from what is thus England/UK matters proves that Westminster has set itself up to be the de facto Parliament of the country of England as the master race and everyone else their underling being told to do as they are told by England.
Logically they cannot be both the Parliament of England and the parliament of the UK at the same time. This because the UK is a two partner Kingdom setup and the way devolution is set up is England in charge and the countries of Wales, N.I. and Scotland who are second class countries.
In Scotland’s case we are the only other kingdom of the United Kingdom and not one of England’s historic acquisitions under Divine Right of Kings law that never applied to Scotland since 1320 and only slightly changed in England in 1688 shortly before the actual union.
yesindyref2 @ 21:04,
Just as well it’s after the watershed, eh? =grin=
But good news, still. Especially since (as we know only too well) we can easily be outvoted by the vast body of Daily Tory readership. If they could be exercised about something so “trivially peripheral”, that is…
Tomorrow will bring Scottish questions in WM.
It is also PMQ’s.
There is no doubting it will be interesting and that we will discuss Brexit and the implications for all our future’s but has the Trident misfire been dropped now?
Why does the cynic in me think it was planned this way?
We must not take our eye off the ball on any topic!!!
Robert J. Sutherland says:
24 January, 2017 at 8:59 pm
I watched tonight’s C4 take on Scotland vs Brexit, and it was mostly a rather dismal affair. Crick asserting –
Did you like how the idiot kicked off his C4 news Project Fear thing to camera, by shining a torch under his chin, in the dark, you know like how do it when your telling your kids a scaaaaaaaaaaary story?
The dickheads are back but it’s probably not that scary anymore.
If talk of UDI keeps on being moated. It will scare people off – from voting YES. Maybe that is the intention. The majority in Scotland do not approve of Law breaking. Scotland is a relative Law abiding country. Scotland has always gone through legal methods and the vote. (Because it could). It takes a 5% swing which is becoming easily achievable. If people are not scared off from voting YES. Negative talk is just irresponsible. Anarchy does not appeal to a majority of voters. They appreciate calm stability or substained transfer. Not chaotic mayhem.
The Greens scared people off from voting YES with their impractical, exaggerated nonsensical schemes. Land reform and taking land/property with no redress, Banning cars and unnecessarily putting up taxes. That will never happen but it scares people, Their policies are so unpopular. Voters will not vote for them or are reluctant to vote YES.
They do not appeal to a majority of people. Getting far too high a profile for percentage vote size. If they want to put ahead wanton impracticality for bait publicity. Wait until after Independence is achieved. It will get knocked back in any case. i.e. The ‘Sillars’ effect. Which will never happen. Puts people off. YES.
It is no use legitimately complaining about Westminster Unionists Law breaking and then advocating doing the same. That is not credible.
Folks think I’m a tout
Ah’m no the one soft-pedalling independence, beyond that ah’m no dignifying folks’ imputations
You think you can win a second referendum? Against the massed ranks of the British state – it’s media, it’s security services, every arm of it’s wretched apparatus.
You think one more push will take us over the top. God, for all our sakes, I hope you’re right, but if we lose – no strike that – when we lose, what then – a third referendum, a fourth, a fifth.
I sometimes think folk here are more interested in referendums than they are in independence, more interested in glittering generalities than in the realities and particulars of our situation. We can trust to “democracy” and “the rule of law” all we like but that is no guarantee that is what we’ll get or that our opponents will observe the niceties.
I write this not as some undercover unionist hack but out of desperation, out of despair.
@ Meindevon 4.54. Derek Bateman has found the easy target in the NO voters & omitted to mention the Propoganda Agents his friends at the BBC who he has defended in the past ( as being not all bad ).
He might direct his ire in that direction (BBC) in future . At least some of the no voters are waking up to the facts they were lied to by the BBC Scotland .
So much for the pretendy “sovereignty” of the likes of Robert Peffers.
Those shouting from the rooftops about Scots’ “sovereignty” should now put their money where their mouths are and petition Scotland’s highest court to pronounce clearly how “sovereign” we really are.
As I have been saying for long, any alleged “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it is written on.
Scotland’s “sovereignty” was sold more than 300 years ago and the “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign”.
C4 News is a joke. It’s reports are out of touch with reality, on all subjects. Few people watch it, especially in Scotland. Other sources are much better. Fake News.
Snow was one of the only ‘reporters’ who was clued into IndyRef1. How things change.
‘Journalist’ have to do exams and pass. Who would ever have thought it?
As I have been saying for years now we cannot trust ANYTHING that comes out of Westminster, it is totally committed to the betterment of England. Today we got indisputable evidence that it is in fact very true.
If and when we hold Indy2, we need a team of Scottish legal hero’s to categorically to inform the Westminster Government that will be making the act of Union null and void from that date.
An Indy win will not be the reason we will dissolve it, but will give legal power for our lawmakers to legally declare it. In accordance with our historical rights of sovereignty.
Copies of the decision should be forwarded to the United Nations and to every country of the world, informing them that the ancient country of Scotland has decided to make it’s own way in the world for the sake of our countrymen and the welfare of our society, and to help spread peace and harmony between nations of the world from this day forth.
I would like to see the full unedited version of Jim Sillars interview before i step forward and condemn him , clever editing can distort even the most trivial remark however innocently uttered , anyone ask Jim if this was a true reflection of this short clip ? , no ? me neither it’s the thing reporters used to engage in to uncover the truth , until i see this i reserve judgment on Jim , i dont believe he overnight has lost his Marbles .
Brian Powell at 903pm,
I understand what you say, but the problem is this, the SNP are not telling us that they are producing press reports that are not published. We, the supporters of independence, simply do not know.
The SNP really, really need to up their game in interviews, and making a fuss until they are heard – THAT is what Labour do. They also need to improve their website. When something like today happens, it is really difficult trying to find out what the SNP are doing and saying.
I completely understand the MSM ignore them, but the very least they could do, is make an effort to let ACTUAL independence supporters know what they think, how they have responded etc.
In the next indyref, it will be even more important for the SNP to really get a grip of those things. Only those in the SNP who REALLY know how to handle the media and importantly, know the facts, should be allowed to do TV interviews. The days of letting everybody ‘have a go’ because they are available, needs to stop.
Anyway, let’s stop dithering and get on with the next indyref.
As I had been saying:
“If the twats in the Supreme Court delay Brexit, and blame the Scots for it, it will only be for the benefit of the
Establishment, not because of Scotland’s pretendy “sovereignty”.
They did worse than blaming the Scots – they ruled that the Scots count for nothing.
heedtracker says:
24 January, 2017 at 7:23 pm
Jim Sillars also piling on with NO ref 2 soon on C4 fury at ref 2. Dirty business and Sillars was the SNP deputy leader in 1992! Cant even remember that far back. Something is up.
I can, I remember a British intelligence officer stated that the SNP was under control? Was Jim Silars the mole? Was the intelligence officer telling lies, anyway who is Jim, just another arse, yes he was good once, so was a lot of others, then the truth will out!
But he is another here today gone tomorrow politician. The good he did will not outshine his treachery. Shame really.
@Brian Powell says: 24 January, 2017 at 9:03 pm
“Everyone asking the SNP to step ups gear, get more interviews etc. The SNP release press reports every Friday, the media don’t publish them.”
Thank you so much for that Brian, I’ve been trying to get that across on here to Wingers for some time now. All anyone needs to do is go to Parliament TV during Scottish Questions to see how hard and what abuse our MPs suffer from a chamber packed with the English unionists only there to make themselves a shower of abusers.
Their behaviour would shame a Rangers vs Celtic cup tie for abuse and background noise designed to disrupt.
Mind you any visit to Parliament TV to see the events in the chamber is an eye opener for there is always lots of hard working SNP MPs doing their bit and a great absence of English MPs until a division bell sounds and the bars and eateries, gyms and so on empty out and then disperse again.
The Rev Stu posted the stats not long ago on Wings.
He didnt say no ref, he said not in the run up to Brexit, too much uncertainty, during Brexit. Its a fair point.
Why is yoon culture going NO ref apeshit tonight? If they believe they can’t lose, they’d calling for ref 2 asap. They know they’ve shot every Project Fear bolt, from Clyde RN ship building to, the EU. Whats tubaboy saying,
Blair McDougall Retweeted
Chris ?@ChrisRoarty95 2h2 hours ago
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@theSNP prepare yourself for the truth. #Factbeforeflags (credit to @DrScottThinks for image).
The union is under attack, Splinters and backbiting trolls to the rescue! 🙂
Top SLab yoon roasters also pretending nothings happened today. Such an odd crowd, the red tories, SNP bad, situation normal. Maybe they don’t actually watch tv, have the radio on etc.
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 2h2 hours ago
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What’s worse, the shameful cuts or the insulting spin?
Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 5h5 hours ago
More
Duncan Hothersall Retweeted Paul Waugh
Lord Blunkett doesn’t get to make up the constitution on the hoof. Suddenly Brexit means House of Lords reform? Nah mate.Duncan Hothersall added,
Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
Joemcg,
“The usual suspects better not EVER mention “Scottish Sovereignty” again. Everyone knows now you have been talking utter shite for years.”
They attacked us like wolves when we pointed out the bloody obvious to them.
By predicating the objection to Brexit from Scotland based on a devolved parliament’s status..the SNP played right into the hands of the English Supreme Court with its two Scottish stooges. NS may well deliberately crafted this.
Why did we not go straight to the heart of the matter?…the democratic deficit we have had inflicted on us for three hundred years. The total desecration of the Act of Union by English domination by stealth and finally in plain sight.?
NS did this to bring more people ‘over’ but Brexit is vague for many. Our outright freedom would have been a clearer mandate than muddied Euro membership….and I say this as a EU supporter (meantime).
Robert Graham,
This is not the first anti SNP story from Jim, nor the second or the third?
liz says:
24 January, 2017 at 6:48 pm
Surely if the judgement is centred on English law, the SG have a right to take this to the European court?
It is obvious we will get NO justice within the UK
It makes you wonder if BREXIT was really all about zapping Scotland out of the picture permanently after exit for the westminster elite getting their hands on Scotland’s new oil finds.
No interference from EU after UK leaves, smokescreen over fracking, it all makes sense, tory elite greed take precedence over the sovereign rights of the Scottish People.
This is now time for every Scot to work towards Independence, end the exploitation of our people and our land by grasping tories, remember it’s your children/grandchildren’s birthrights that are at stake.
Folk have pulled you up before about insulting them Robert and you called me a undercover unionist today including Rock in that slur. As you say I will just ignore your posts in future.
As UKOK twerps like tubaboy and Hothersall plighter about with Dr Scott thinks he’s clever SNP bad,
FT says, and comments like these are pretty good too.
“An industry at the pinnacle of engineering, with a proud history in Britain and employing tens of thousands of some of Britain’s sharpest minds…..but at least we’ll have our country back”
4 HOURS AGO by: Peggy Hollinger, Industry Editor
Airbus may cut investment into the UK if it has to bear extra costs as a result of Britain’s exit from the EU, a senior executive told MPs.
Meanwhile, a number of car companies are holding off on investment decisions until the terms of Brexit are clarified, according to the sector’s trade body.
The warnings came in a hearing of the Commons Treasury select committee on the UK’s future relationship with the EU. Three of Britain’s biggest industries – aerospace, automotive and chemicals — were summoned to give evidence of their concerns.
‘I write this not as some undercover unionist hack but out of desperation, out of despair.’
The worst possible state of mind to take any kind of action. Let alone push for others (incite) to take any kind of action. We’re well aware of the ‘situation’ and ye know what, it’s all going accordingly. Patience now, not haste.
We’re no a rabble. So stop rousing.
From Day 1 Nicola has played by their rules.
She has put a united Scotland first to try and find a solution that would embrace as many as possible.
She looked at alternatives; tried to find creative ways to interpret the Brexit vote;
she has looked at compromise; the EEA, the reverse Greenland solution; staying in the custom’s Union; talked with Iceland, Ireland, Norway, European leaders, Gibraltar.
She set up her advisory council – which met today to advise her of the best way forward.
And she has done all of this with patience and dignity.
It has been painful to watch her efforts being rejected (‘ Knocked back/slapped down’ in common parlance)
This applies also to our stunning MP’s in the H of C who are regularly jeered and laughed at by colleagues who in so doing, betray the trust and responsibility they shoulder.
For me the sadness is that it is Scotland being traduced and belittled by this arrogant cohort of disrespectful imperialists.
This is what Kezia fails to get and (t)Ruthless relishes.
By contrast, TMay and her WM numpties have been embarrassing to watch as there is no coherent strategy apparent in their behaviour.
After today, I think Nicola will be playing by her rules.
I don’t doubt her judgement for one minute as she can see the bigger picture – we can only see our ‘neck of the woods’ .
She has already planned for this result – as was made clear by her statement last night that there would be a vote in Holyrood, whatever the judgment today.
She knows the direction to take and what needs to be done and the timescale.
However hard it will be, we owe it to her to be patient but ready. There is work to be done and the prize will be sweet.
K1 @ 9.51
Well said.
Robert Peffers,
“@Joemcg says: 24 January, 2017 at 10:55 am:
“The usual suspects better not EVER mention “Scottish Sovereignty” again. Everyone knows now you have been talking utter shite for years.”
Didn’t take the undercover unionists too long but I had expected Rock to get in first.
I’ll tell you just how much utter shite YOU are spouting.”
YOUR shite has been totally exposed.
You and Breeks are in total denial.
Wake up to reality.
You can call us “undercover unionists” or whatever you like.
But unlike you, we are not a laughing stock.
Sovereignty
I am a man with no past, from a people with no past, we are trespassing on another’s land, we inhabit a society without history, without common values, without hopes and dreams, without culture without history, we can be treated like slaves as we hold no affinity to each other or our common weal!
Such is the world of the unionists, they inhabit a world where they are subservient to the will of an other nation, created only in the minds of those whose sovereignty was subjugated by a Norman Duke, who styled himself King of England.
I am Scottish, I owe no allegiance to the union, it is a absurdity, a falsehood, a lie to scare children.
Sovereignty scares them, that’s why they play blood and soil, why their songs have lies like “never shall be slaves” when in fact that’s exactly what they are, Brexit is another manifestation of this, taking back control, really? To give it to whom exactly, the same aristocracy that has ruled their land since it was given to their overlords as bounty by the conquerer.
We Scottish men and women will never be assimilated into the bastard union, 300 years are for nothing, 45% of Scotland voted to end this union in 2014, next time it’s over.
@ Rock Am laughing if you think you have any stock on WoS & take your pals with you.
Joemcg,
“As you say I will just ignore your posts in future.”
Don’t let him get away with his SHITE – challenge him at every opportunity.
ronnie anderson says:
24 January, 2017 at 10:12 pm
@ Rock Am laughing if you think you have any stock on WoS & take your pals with you.
I’m laughing that they think they can bully anyone off the internet.
@K1
No disrespect, but I can’t see how it is going accordingly.
A Westminster government dismisses our concerns as if we were an uppity toon cooncil despite all the slavish assurances and blandishments we were promised in the laughable Vow and beyond some condemnatory statements in Holyrood and some written-on-water motion, where are we. Are we closer to independence?
I concede that some of my earlier comments smack of fire-breathing sedition but I fear that the SG’s careful, legalistic manoeuvring is painting us into a corner and risks alienating its support
No, my friend, the time for action nears
Sillars is working for the Union.
You read that Sillars?
Your working for the Union.
The reason we may never achieve our independence is being played out today and tonight before my eyes. A number of you, due to your own feelings of self importance, are doing the unionists work for them. So you don’t agree with Robert Peffers or Joemcg or Rock – leave it at that. You don’t agree that’s all. If we have Indyref2 in the next couple of years and we lose that will be it for ever. Stop infighting, put aside your differences and realize that the unionists will be laughing at, and loving, this stupid, immature shit.
It could be the Tories intransigent is because they want Scotland to have another IndyRef and Independence. The Tories have enough on their plate. They are causing mayhem. Then they can withdraw to their migrant free paradise with no foreigners to annoy them.
The Law Lords could be not adverse to Scotland having another Referendum and gain Independence. They support Democracy in the British Isles. There is no reason why not.
At least it might lead to a stop to the illegal wars causing the worse migration crisis in Europe. Costing £Trns, starving people and killing people. The Law Lords might believe in the rule of Law and world peace.
ronnie anderson,
“@ Rock Am laughing if you think you have any stock on WoS & take your pals with you.”
I am no sycophant and have no sycophants, unlike the usual suspects who attack me because they cannot counter the points I make.
@Kenlike says: 24 January, 2017 at 9:20 pm:
“Folks think I’m a tout. Ah’m no the one soft-pedalling independence, beyond that ah’m no dignifying folks’ imputations.”
Face facts, then, Kenlike. I’ve been an active SNP supporter and activist for almost 70 years. There has been far greater progress made towards Scotland’s independence in the past few years than in all the rest put together.
I’ve seen the blowing up of pillar boxes and Pylons, the rise of militant factions and the spiriting away of the Stone of Destiny.
I watched the rise of Siol nan Gaidheal and its partial decline and the SLA too.
Yet here we are on the verge of success and no violence or threats of violence. Not even overly aggressiveness in broadcast interviews.
Yet we go on making progress and the SG is now SNP too. We have more MPs at Westminster than I ever dared hope for and yet some want us to become more aggressive.
Now let me point out the most obvious fact. Aggressive to who would you suggest? Well certainly not to those we want to win over for aggression will only serve to drive them away. Aggressive to the dyed in the wool Unionists perhaps?
Why? They are the least likely to vote for independence anyway and aggression will firm their resolve. While others might, and do, think that we were guilty of abuse of the Yoons and be put off.
Fact is that slowly, but surely our share of the vote goes up and that is when you do not try to fix that which is not broken.
Now here’s a though. This Supreme court thing strikes me as being a Westminster Establishment panic measure. And a blind panic at that. Make no mistake about it the English Legal system is a pillar of the Establishment and it always has been.
No clever legal brain would do what these people have just done and risk aggravating the people of Scotland as they undoubtedly have – and not just those of us committed to independence.
There can be only two explanations. One this is indeed a panic measure. Two they are up to something we have not yet thought of but I’m convinced that Nicola and the SG can out think them.
‘No disrespect, but I can’t see how it is going accordingly.’
Yeah, that’s clear.
Were have you been these past 4 years?
I’m not your friend, am well aware of the circumstances in which we find ourselves and it is going accordingly. Go do some reading and catch up with what is actually happening. It’s not you who decides when ‘action’ nears or not, it’s up tae the people of Scotland and our representatives when and what if, any action does take place. Go rabble rouse elsewhere.
heedtracker,
“I’m laughing that they think they can bully anyone off the internet.”
Had you not been bullied away from this blog, before making a Farage type comeback?
@Kenlike
“It is incumbent on each of us to take matters into our own hands now.”
What are you proposing then Ken like when we take matters into our own hands?
Should we use use these hands to batter a No voter because they disagree with Independence. Should we be grabbing No voting pensioners by the throat when we take matters into our own hands?
Tell us exactly what you mean about taking matters into our own hands and don’t be shy. Make your point loud and clear.
Your vision of Independence is not mine and I don’t believe I am alone.
Just before turning of the tv I heard this statement “sovereignty has been given to parliament” and for all you squeal rock it is comments like yours that gives that idea power. I think you misunderstand what sovereignty is, and its power rock, perhaps the fault is yours, perhaps not, but in any case this is a war and your statement is succour to our enemies, and if you can’t see that then it is I who will challenge you rock, which side are you on boy, anyway here is a tune for you!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vbddqXib814
Ken I honestly think you are right. The Tories want our oil. But the price is our insurgent government as they see it. They really can’t be bothered accommodating us. They will put up a lacklustre defence of the UK in Indi ref 2. Union is already over its just the paperwork that needs agreed now. Won’t be long!
Polite notice:
To all people who are commenting tonight that SNP needs to get Media Savvy, issue press releases, have a more up to date website etc.
Take your suggestions direct to your MSP, your MP and to the SNP direct at these links.
http://www.parliament.scot/msps.aspx
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/
http://www.snp.org
mmm.
http://renderer.qmerce.com/interaction/561f9a3b41d4754d1457ea7d
Robert…or third they don’t care and don’t think that far ahead.
‘No clever legal brain would do what these people have just done and risk aggravating the people of Scotland as they undoubtedly have – and not just those of us committed to independence.’
And that is the problem with some of the ‘action’ brigade on this thread, you are playing ‘their’ game. Stand back. Don’t be manipulated and stop telling everyone on here that ‘we’ are the ones who have to ‘react’ to ‘their’ pish. Patience. Hold.
Jim Sillars like Gordon Wilson are a long time out of the loop and out of the spotlight and they’d like to be back in it again and if the telly’ll pay them money to talk pish they’ll do it
Although I have to say in Jims case if Margo were still here his face would more than likely be shut
He’s only having a wee grandstand like old fellas do when nobody cares what they say anymore I know about this because I’m an old fella in that category, well my grand kids laugh at me so it must be true
Sillars is a mischief maker and always has been. Attention seeker hence kicked out of Snp.
@ heedtracker The 4hr on 4hr of Brigade the Rock of sages (an ah dont mean wisdom)LoL he might have bullied people at primary school , but he’s in the big boys & girls school now .
Noo who’s fur ah lollypop ( back off Rock ) unless ye want tae dance tae Milli lol.
Robert Peffers
“”Matter of fact the Supreme Court has just been trawling through the laws of the Kingdom of England in order to do Scotland down.””
The decision by the UK Supreme Court that the UK Parliament had to have a role in the triggering of Article 50 may have been made under the ‘Laws of England’ because the case being heard was an appeal of a decision made in an English Court.
That appeal was extended to consider whether the devolved administrations should also have a role and each of the devolved administrations made their case.
But those cases were not based, or judged under English law, but under the Acts that set up the devolved administrations and their relationship to the UK parliament and what powers were devolved.
The judges ruled unanimously that the Sewel Convention was just that, a Convention, and in doing so set out quite clearly that it is a political construct not a law and thus demonstrated the limitations of such an arrangement thus giving the lie to claims by certain politicians that Holyrood is the most powerful assembly anywhere. English laws were not involved in that decision.
In short there were two parts to that appeal and the part relating to the devolved administrations was decided under the Acts under which they were set up and the subsequent Acts amending/extending their powers which are not English laws.
Kez isnt saying anything at all either SCourt and Scotland wise. Seriously strange crew. Its almost like they’ve told to say nothing Supreme Court, ever. Leave it the big boys in Pacific Quay.
Kezia Dugdale ?@kezdugdale 6h6 hours ago
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I’ll be hosting open advice surgeries this Friday (27th) in Corstorphine, Dalry and Portobello. You can find me at the following locations:
Kezia Dugdale Retweeted
STV News ?@STVNews Jan 20
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.@JeremyCorbyn: Independence would cause ‘turbo-charged austerity’ in Scotland http://bit.ly/2jUlTQw
“No disrespect, but I can’t see how it is going accordingly.” you say @ Kenlike says at 10:17 pm
The way I see it it’s fairly simple.
Every day since 19/9/2014 when WM shits on Scotland and one of their Pre Indy Ref 1 promises is exposed as a lie another No voter (soft or otherwise) gets the chance to re-evaluate their decision.
Since the Brexit vote in June 2016 how many NOs are now Yes?
How many normal folk who thought NO in 2014 meant staying in the EU and now see that’s not the case.
How many Farmers who won’t get a subsidy because WM Tories abhor benefits of any kind and the public won’t stand for them being paid not to produce.
How many Fishermen who now hear May has been discussing access to Scottish fishing ground with the Spanish?
How many of the selfish I’m alright Jack/Jills who now see their cost of living rise as their investments and jobs disappear as the £ continues to drop?
How many folk will change their vote when they see Scotlands Parliament (not the SNP) being treated with such disdain?
That’s how I perceive it is all going accordingly.
It’s a numbers game (always has been), and Yes are winning day by day, Individual voter by individual voter making a choice to change the vote they were lied to in return for last time.
Reading through today’s contributions, I’m reminded that we need to be always aware – to be alert – to the potential of agent provocateurs to cause great harm!
Jockanese Wind Talker says:
There must be a couple of hundred thousand EU citizens in Scotland now, who probably quite like living here, do not appreciate being pawns in the tory Brexit game and may not want to be rounded up and sent back to where they migrated from.
@ pnr
Violence is no part of my manifesto. If you had read the whole of my first comment you would have seen the non-violent ideas I had suggested: the return of our MPs, the non-payment of taxes, the setting up of alternative government structures. All very threatening, it would seem and outlined by that notorious terrorist Mohandas K. Gandhi.
It is you, who has imputed violence, not me.
The plain fact is that England has always presumed that the Union of 1707 had finally – at long last – completed the imperial project launched by Edward I 400 years earlier. In other words, through the Act(s) of Union Scotland had been subjugated to the English crown, and effectively extinguished. It no longer existed.
The fact that the Act(s) of Union did not say this mattered not a whit. Nor, indeed, did the fact that they actually said the opposite. Although they were the official legal documents which constituted the new entity called the United Kingdom, the English did not regard them as constitutionally binding or of any permanent value.
They never in the least intended that these texts would serve as a lasting reference point defining the nature of that new entity, the United Kingdom, or the relations that were to exist between its component parts. That is why they broke their terms so quickly, and so often. If the terms of the Union did not bother England or interfere with English goals they would be respected; the minute they didn’t, they would be ignored.
For the politicians of England the Acts that brought about the Union were not ends but means, and they did not feel bound by them. What they thought had happened was that through these means they had at last bound the Scots, just as Edward and his successors had always intended.
Without wishing to push the metaphor too far – but medieval Scots would have been fully aware of it, and known exactly what it meant – this was not entirely unlike the way you bind a slave. ‘Subjugation means subjugation!’ as someone might say. Just as Brexit, for that same ‘someone’, is the continuation of the imperial dream.
For Brexit has apparently given birth – re-birth – to ‘global Britain’. Which means England writ large and making herself present, and felt, everywhere. ‘Let’s take back control’ means ‘Bring back the good old glory days of yore …’
For the English political class, then as now, the legal instruments which brought about the Union were not ends in themselves, but simply the final means towards achieving a far more ambitious goal which had been set 400 years earlier. One which they had pursued with amazingly tenacious consistency ever since, and now – at long last, in 1707 – they had it, so they thought, in their grasp.
The extinction of Scotland.
You might call it – therefore – the final solution …
It didn’t matter what the Union texts actually said – that final solution was what they meant. For the English, the Union meant not a new beginning but the end – the end, that is, of Scotland. Not of England, which would continue as before, only safer, better, richer stronger. Just like Cameron once said, pretending to talk about the ‘Union’ when in fact he only meant what that Union had done and in his view still did for England.
In 1707, the original colonial project of England had been accomplished. For the English, it was the outcome that mattered, not the means by which it had been reached. Who cares about what the Act(s) of Union say; just glory in the wonderful result(s) they have achieved.
The Scots, by contrast, actually read the texts.
Those who drew them up on the Scottish side may well have been that ‘parcel of rogues’ they are remembered as, but they were still Scots. In typically Scottish fashion, especially when it comes to legal texts and legal argumentation, they paid good and proper attention to the wording of what they were signing. Rogues they no doubt were, but they were not slapdash: they took a great deal of care over what they were – and even more so over what they were not – conceding.
Even 400 years earlier, when their forebears of the late 13th and early 14th Century were confronted with English claims that were unjust and unjustifiable, but very cleverly put together, the Scots had always paid attention, and had always had the better of the legal arguments. They were better than the English at thinking the matter through consistently, and systematically. Not least because their cause was just, and they could rest it on sound principles that would stand the test.
At the beginning of the 18th Century the Scots who negotiated the Union, rogues as they were, did nevertheless negotiate a Union. They knew that was what they were doing and that it was as far as they could go: the agreement had to be reciprocal. Which it was – just read the texts.
But the English negotiators, and their masters, did not see it in that way at all. They simply had their eyes on the long-coveted prize, and their intention was to gain it.
For them, Scotland was entering into a Union with England, not England with Scotland. Whatever the texts said, Scotland was in fact being subjugated to England, and would remain subject to her thereafter, for ever. It was not Scotland united, but Scotland absorbed. With a few insignificant concessions granted to them to keep them happy, or just quiet.
The Act(s) of Union were just means for them; what the Act(s) actually said did not matter in itself and hardly even counted. The only thing that mattered, the only thing that really counted was the end that they would achieve.
That end was clear. What they had always seen (and occasionally experienced) as the Scottish problem – their problem to their north – had at long last been resolved. Which is to say, extinguished.
Now England would be free to pursue the rest of its ever-expanding imperial venture without hindrance from that source. The English would be able to push ahead throughout the whole wide world without for ever having to look over their shoulder, and beware their back.
England had ‘acquired’ the subjection of Scotland and the subjugation of the Scots once and for all. Both land and people had been snaffled from them, and their political institutions entirely swallowed up just as Edward I, ‘the covetous king’, had always wanted.
So there are two ‘unions’ in the UK. One a genuine union, and the other the expansion of an imperial power in which one part of the whole absorbed the other.
And there are two constitutions, unacknowledged, at work within what is claimed to be one united kingdom. The Scottish constitution on one hand, and the English one on the other – each of them viewing the Union in a way that is unique to itself, and completely different from the view of the other. They are not even compatible.
An accommodation of this strange state of affairs could be made while the wider imperial project seemed to be working, with too few noticing the glaring fact that something was radically amiss at the heart of thgis so-called union. The trouble came when the wider world woke up, and threw off the chains its imperial masters had imposed. Unmasked in this way, and pushed back to base from the 1960’s onward, it became increasingly difficult for unionists of all stripes to disguise the illusion on which the whole imperial project had been based in the first place. The union itself was an imperial project, and not the union that the Scots had once thought it was.
The mask having slipped, the violence underneath it can no longer be hidden. The imperial fangs have been bared, and are plain for all to see. Just listen to some of the red raw language directed not just at the SNP, which has been unfailingly courteous, but at Scots in general. And there’s more of it to come – a lot more.
The things that some of us are getting upset about in the judgement of the Supreme Court are no surprise. They are simply a confirmation of the ugly realities lurking underneath the Union. These are not new realities; they have always been there. It’s just that we have not always been aware of them.
They were shrouded in the appearance of civility. But take away the mask and … wow, what a monster underneath … A monster we ourselves willingly, or semi-willingly, became part of.
How have so many of us been taken in for so long? And how have we so complacently allowed ourselves to be duped so easily? Why are we even surprised when we see judgements like the one handed down by the Supreme Court?
England is a great nation, and when she at last renounces her ‘greatness’ she will again make a great and wonderful contribution to the concert of nations.
Brexit is only the latest example of her failure to shake off those imperial illusions which do so much damage to others, but especially to herself.
There is no danger posed to England from her north at all, and never was. No danger from that quarter to the world either. It is up to Scotland to kill the imperial dragon to her south once and for all.
Not by killing England but by freeing her from her illusions, instead of acquiescing in them. For it is such acquiescence that kills Scotland, and prevents her from making her own modest but irreplaceable contribution to that same concert of nations.
Come on Scotland: at long last, arise from your slumber, do your duty, and become an independent nation once again, along with all the others.
Not just for your own sake, but for England’s, and everyone else’s too.
@Rock says: 24 January, 2017 at 9:22 pm
“So much for the pretendy “sovereignty” of the likes of Robert Peffers.”
Yes! Dear! There! There! There!
“Those shouting from the rooftops about Scots’ “sovereignty” should now put their money where their mouths are and petition Scotland’s highest court to pronounce clearly how “sovereign” we really are.”
How bloody stupid are you, Rock? It isn’t the Highest Court in Scotland we need to petition. They can do no more than has already been done. It is recorded as Scottish Law that there is precedent in law that the people of Scotland are sovereign. That means the ones to assert their legal sovereignty must be those that are sovereign – no one can do it for them and they can only do it as the majority.
Several Claims of Right have been ignored, and not until now even attempted to be shot down by the opposition legal system – until now.
“As I have been saying for long, any alleged “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it is written on.”
Aye! We noticed. Thing is you never suggest anything that even resembles a real decent suggestion of what might succeed. In fact I think I’m not alone in thinking you are a loser who has already given in.
“Scotland’s “sovereignty” was sold more than 300 years ago and the “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign”
Hilarious, plebs nowhere else have ever been sovereign with I think just one little exception. In fact for most of the history of mankind those plebs were pretty much slaves.
The word is Roman and in Rome it meant – the general body of free Roman citizens who were not patricians, as determined by the Roman census. Shopkeepers, crafts people, and skilled or unskilled workers could be plebeian.
What you imagine that has to do with modern civilisation is anyone’s guess. Now here’s something for you to chew over. The SC decision has just dragged the matter onto the public domain and it will have gone round the World several times by now.
The United Kingdom, (sic), is about to begin a process of attempting to claim to be Britain leaving the EU but obtusely at the same time actually, and unbelievably, threatening both France and Germany that The UK, calling itself Britain will make things hard for the EU. An EU already much opposed to the UK government.
Now there are several things that the EU are hot on. Self-determination, Free Trade access, Workers rights and EU citizenship. Each one is in perfect tune with the Scottish Government’s policies and the fact is the Name UK includes the word Kingdom – it does not include the word Country.
It also includes the word Union and the EU parliament are not daft. If they rule that the United Kingdom is indeed a union of Kingdoms and the Treaty that made it has only two partners the EU is well within its rights to say that either Kingdom of the Union can become the legacy EU member state and several EU and EC officials have said as much.
Do you imagine they are not aware the SC has just decreed that Scotland is just a region of the England and the UK parliament operates as the de facto parliament of the country of England.
.
O/T saw this on Facebook tonight, looks like Foster has been caught bang to rights as they say in the old Sweeney episodes.
o tonight I decided to do some research myself into the R.H.I scheme and have been blown away with what I have discovered in less than two hours by simply using my phone and google. I believe I have discovered a link between Arlene Foster and the R.H.I scheme as far back as June 2008, and to be precise the 9th of June 2008 – the very day she took up her roll as Minister of Enterprise, Trade & Investment and on the same day a Mr Stephen Kingon was appointed director of Balcas Timber Limited, the company which would go on to become the largest wood pellet fuel manufacturer in Great Britain and Ireland, and has pioneered biomass renewable energy in the British Isles with an annual turnover of circa £100 Million.
Coincidence??? I’ll let you decide for yourself, here is the timeline of events.
1st of January 2005 –
DUP appoint Mr Stephen Kingon as chairperson of Invest N.I (3 year post)
9th of June 2008 –
Arlene Foster is appointed as Minister of Enterprise, Trade & Investment – Mr Stephen Kingon is also appointed chairman of Balcas Timber Limited on the same day.
29 December 2008 –
Enterprise Minister Arlene Foster has announced the re-appointment of Invest N.I Chairman, Stephen Kingon.
2nd September 2009 –
It is discovered that Invest N.I have awarded
Balcas Timber Limited a grant of £113,000 and the chairman of Invest N.I & Balcas Timber Limited is the same person Mr Stephen Kingon, all this is overseen by the Enterprise, trade and investment department ministered by Arlene Forster, and what does he get for awarding his own company a huge grant from Invest N.I. well one would think the sack, no he stays on until the start on January 2011.
1st of January 2011 –
Mr Stephen kingdon completes 6 years in his post 3 of those years he was also chairperson of Balcas Timber Limited.
November 2012 –
Enterprise Minister introduces the R.H.I which leads to Balcas Timber Limited to become the largest wood pellet fuel manufacturer in Great Britain and Ireland, and earn Mr Stephen Kingon and his company over a £100 million annually and also cost the N.I taxpayer at least over £600 million which will be paid to god knows how many friends & family connected to the DUP.
#fostershouldbejailedforfraud
Yesindyref2 posted on previous poll about what Boris said about Trident
@ stewartb Agent Provocateurs on WoS are like Coconut door mats, they get their faces wiped every day.
Robert,
I don’t think they did say Scotland was a region, its late and I can’t remember exactly but i think they ignored any comments, they were addressing Holyrood. Not Scotland.
O/T The Local 24th 2017.
January France on Tuesday took a key step towards shutting down its oldest nuclear power station, a campaign promise of Socialist President Francois Hollande, just months before he leaves office.
The board of state-owned electricity utility EDF approved a compensation package worth at least €400 million ($430 million) for the shutdown of the Fessenheim nuclear plant, a source close to the matter said.
EDF, which is 85.6 percent owned by the state, agreed the plan with the French government last August.
The closure of the twin-reactor plant is part of a plan to dramatically reduce the country’s dependence on atomic energy.
The plant in Fessenheim on the border with Germany about 100 kilometres (60 miles) south of Strasbourg has been in operation since 1977.
Fessenheim, located on a seismic fault line, has worried French, German and Swiss environmentalists for years.
Last year Germany demanded that France close down Fassenheim following reports that a 2014 incident there was worse than earlier portrayed.
“This power plant is very old, too old to still be in operation,” said a spokeswoman for Germany’s Environment and Nuclear Safety Minister at the time.
“That’s why the environment minister demands its closure at the earliest possible date,” he said, reiterating Berlin’s earlier demands.
Seems a lot of Europeans are on the same wavelength as most Scots regarding nuclear.
AYE, You’re right YOU WILL NOT HEAR IT ON THE BBC !!!!!!
As we enter a new era of post truth politics or appearance-reality politics the reality of Scotland’s place in the UK is now absolutely clear.Not as it appeared to be the case when Scotland voted No in September ’14 because Scotland was assured that Scotland was equal,valued and a partner of influence. Thanks to today’s ruling we can confidently state that Scotland exists within the UK as the metaphoric serf to the feudal overlord-a real delusion shared by some unfortunate souls.
It is legitimate to ask what is Scotland’s place in this bizarre UK relationship if the WM political and legal directives justify Scotland’s unequal relationship with WM,crystallise an imbalanced political system in a legal form, to create relations of dominance and subordination in all things ‘democratic’ to mask the true underlying reality that Scotland is a distinct country.
What mechanisms can be used to reinstate reality over appearances- that Scotland rejects the corvée system ? Brexit consequences,an informed and educated electorate from all social and cultural domains,the persistence of Scottish government and a sustained push for Indyref 2 may help.
@Kenlike
You talk not of violence yet you clearly support UDI. The two are synonymous, read your history. You say:
“Those of you who oppose UDI, who wish to continue the “democratic” charade – do you imagine the other side observes such scrupulosity, such concern for the rules; do you really think they’ll give us a fair chance?”
Well I’m one that your message was addressed too as I totally reject UDI as a means of gaining Scotalnd’s Independence. What do think would be the result of declaring UDI?
Nothing at all, no dissent from the MAJORITY? We would just become Independent cause we said so?
No chance, something akin to civil war would be more likely. Anybody fancy that here in Scotland? Listen 55% voted NO they are the majority, if anything it is the NO voter who has the legitimacy. Get that into your skull and forget about “taking matters into our own hands”. Doesn’t matter how you try to sugar coat those words they will still end up meaning the same.
You and I both know what you meant, weasel words now won’t change that.
If we can’t persuade people that Yes is right then that is our fault, we would have failed and it doesn’t matter a shit how much we believe we were right. Your talk of “taking matters into our own hands” is the worst thing we could do in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Your first paragraph of your post that I repeated above makes your last post redundant. Your telling me that “Violence is no part of my manifesto” then you are ignorant.
You will not have UDI without the accompanying Violence. Make a choice Kenlike, you can’t have it both ways.
I suppose it all comes down to bona fides in the end. I’m no troll or splitter or agent provocateur just an ardent nationalist from Angus.
I come to discuss, debate and differ. I’m not much of a one for choral singing. As to worrying about what unionists think, they’d traduce us if we differed or not.
As to rabble-rousing, I apologise, perhaps in my passion I have conflated we/us/I like a cheap politician. These, if it needs to be stated, are my own opinions and as valid/invalid as others see fit.
As to the rest, all I have to say, is that there is a populist wave at the present time and Scotland should get on board.
If anyone thinks Udi is a good idea. Remember George Square and that was them winning! I am pretty sure another couple of thousand of these loonies would show up all over Scotland. Udi can only ever work with 90% support of population and we will never get that by declaring Udi.
Andrew Mclean,
“Just before turning of the tv I heard this statement “sovereignty has been given to parliament” and for all you squeal rock it is comments like yours that gives that idea power.”
Yes, the twats in the UK Supreme Court must have used my comments on this blog to rule that Scotland had ZERO “sovereignty” to be consulted over Brexit.
The likes of you need to wake up to the situation on the ground instead of banging on about ancient “rights” that were not worth the paper they were written on.
As I have posted consistently, the ONLY way for Scotland and the Scots to gain “sovereignty” is to vote for independence.
Robert Peffers’ shite will not get us anywhere.
Wull @10.50
Well said.
I have always believed that in the final reckoning, the Scots lawyers who drew up the terms of the Union were canny. They foresaw that the other signatory on the parchment might bring it to this one day and chose their words carefully.
WM is too proud to see where this is going.
Wales, N.Ireland and Scotland dismissed in one day – not a good move!
How far have we come since 2014?
Who can tell where we will be in two years?
Looks as if our generation will be tasked with bringing about Scotland’s freedom.
@Robert Louis says: 24 January, 2017 at 9:27 pm
“I understand what you say, but the problem is this, the SNP are not telling us that they are producing press reports that are not published. We, the supporters of independence, simply do not know.”
Thing is, Robert Louis, whose fault is that and BTW the SNP is telling you these things. As a supporter of independence you can go to the SNP website and sign up to get emails from Nicola herself. Here is the text from one of them:-
They do tells us but you need to go and look for the MSM are NOT going to tell you
Thank God Kezia finally buried the rotten corps that took on the mantle of being Westminster Labour’s Northern Accounting unit.
The stench it left may linger a while but it will clear up
and go without a trace.
RIP Rot In Perpetuity!
Kenlike says:
Its just tanks on the lawn time, in front of Holyrood, with union jacks draped over their gun barrels. Or. the most perfect gift to the yoons of Westminster and the end of it all
And all because you think its good idea. Scots are clearly reasonable and conservative people in general, maybe a bit too averse to change, holding on to traditional British thingees, certainly way beyond on something as daft and illegal as UDI.
We’ve voted Remain twice now. Its hardly 20 years since Scotland got her parliament back. THey own the BBC, and the press, but they’re out of Westminster and they’re a farce in Holyrood. Yoon culture’s last great Scottish citadels of yooness are up for election in May. After that, the worlds your lobster:D
Robert Peffers,
““Those shouting from the rooftops about Scots’ “sovereignty” should now put their money where their mouths are and petition Scotland’s highest court to pronounce clearly how “sovereign” we really are.”
How bloody stupid are you, Rock? It isn’t the Highest Court in Scotland we need to petition. They can do no more than has already been done. It is recorded as Scottish Law that there is precedent in law that the people of Scotland are sovereign. That means the ones to assert their legal sovereignty must be those that are sovereign – no one can do it for them and they can only do it as the majority.
Several Claims of Right have been ignored, and not until now even attempted to be shot down by the opposition legal system – until now.”
Complete waffle.
Who should we petition then?
Scotland will be ignored regarding Brexit, despite voting to remain. How do we assert our “sovereignty”?
What sort of “sovereignty” do we have?
No “sovereign” state on earth sends all its income to a foreign country and gets back a fraction of it as pocket money.
No “sovereign” state has its foreign affairs and most other matters decided by a foreign parliament.
Does your passport state “Sovereign Citizen of Scotland”?
“How bloody stupid are you, Rock?”
I am not a millionth bloody stupid as you are.
Personal insults are the stock in trade of those who have lost the argument.
I guess no great surprise today. Did any of us believe that lying Tory puppet Mundell and his 2Most powerful devolved parliament in the world” shit?
However, every single thing that has happened has been a surprisingly orderly set of stepping stones towards Indyref2. Each in turn has built that day a little bit closer.
In other news I had no idea that we had let that frightful gimp Piers Morgan back into the country. I thought we had off loaded him on the US. Good on Ewan for not wanting to it beside the creep. It seems to have completely enraged the daft bugger to the point that his head has exploded. Good!
Kenlike
We are all passionate on this site and your view is your opinion. I respect that – I may or may not agree but I respect your right to say it.
If we are frustrated by this ruling, how does Nicola feel?
If we are impatient for Indyref2 how do our Leaders and Spokespeople, MP’S, MSP’s, MEP’s feel?
Today is a setback but I believe it will bring more people round to Independence and we’re in for the long game.
Imagine if Trump was in charge instead of Nicola – he’d probably just say:
‘Tough tiity, my Maggie. We’re terminating this union and doing our own thing ‘cos we want that so bigly, and it will be really, really good, you’ll see. My, it’ll be so good.’
Exit Scotland from the UK – but who would trade with us; how many would protest against us; how much unhappiness would that create?
I prefer Nicola’s plan.
PS I like Angus also, cos that’s where my sister lives.
O/T I hope Ewan McGregor sues Morgan for defamation over this. He is setting the Brexit ‘attack dogs’ on MacGregor big style. The man’s one sick puppy, all because Ewan wouldn’t appear on that show this morning:
http://archive.is/A1kHT
James Barr Gardener
Who took the decision to allow a nuclear power station to be built on a seismic fault line?
Epic mistake! or a lot of brown envelopes?
This is the same EDF that is about to build Hinckley Point for some astronomic sum and sell the electricity back to us at an even more astronomic price.
Meg merrilees at 11.43
Today wasn’t a setback! Today was well planned for. Don’t play poker with Nicola
@Rock,
You think sovereignty does not exist ?
Tell me then why Wales and N Ireland have never been given a referendum.
Is it that the UK government just like Scots a little more that they gave us the option twice, ?
Or is it that they do not need to bother about Wales and N Ireland which are legally part of England.
Tell us all now why we were given that option. Should be interesting.
Meg merrilees @ 23:43:
With all due respect, Meg, I don’t believe it is. Frustrating beyond a doubt, but no more than that.
It might have been perversely pleasing to have stalled Brexit a little longer, but that could also have backfired. “Just troublemakers, that SNP…” Stalled it, but would it likely have stopped it? And would it likely have won us independence beforehand either?
Maybe it might have won us the cheap promise of one or two more devo concessions as “compensation”, but we all know how that goes by now, don’t we?!
No, this way makes the situation crystal clear to all but the most densely purblind PSBs. We’re an English colony, and will never have real power until we’re free.
And that’s where we clearly need to be. One step closer now.
@Rock says: 24 January, 2017 at 9:42 pm:
“They attacked us like wolves when we pointed out the bloody obvious to them.”
Nah! Can’t speak for anyone else but I attacked you for being a numptie and what may seem obvious to you is quite the opposite what many others see as obvious.
Look at it as ithers see it.
It is without doubt the main plank that Scots law is based upon and it has been since 1320.
The Scottish High Court has precedent that by law the people of Scotland are sovereign and that English Law that claims sovereignty has no place in Scottish Law. That is a statement of the High Court of Scotland.
That could not be made any clearer. It is a basic tenet of Scottish Law. That means it is up to the legally sovereign people of Scotland to assert their legal sovereignty. Quite clearly you two fail to understand exactly what being legally sovereign means.
I’m not a lawyer but I’ll do my best. It means the people, and only the people, of Scotland even rank higher than the High Court of Scotland or its judges. As Scots law is legally independent then English law cannot legally over rule it and thus cannot legally over rule the people of Scotland – and that last bit is the obvious weakness that the legally sovereign people of Scotland have.
It is not the Queen of Scots that can stop them. It is not the Scottish High Court. It is not Westminster nor is it Holyrood nor even the EU or the HOL.
It is, in fact people like Joemcg and Rock and Scots yoons and Englanders who reside mainly in Scotland who remain loyal to England for if they mainly live in Scotland and register to vote in Scotland they are legally among the people of Scotland and without a majority of the people of Scotland their sovereign power can safely be ignored.
The reason being that neither the SG, SNP or anyone else has the legal powers to act on their behalf without the say so of a majority of the sovereign people’s say so.
And you. Rock are actively fighting against the people of Scotland’s sovereignty. Which, by the way, is also your own.
Now if anyone, lawyer perhaps, can see a flaw in that argument I do wish you would correct my ignorance.
A Merry Burns Day to ye all.. Make a night of it!
Get in amongst it all ye.. work for territory..
When we’re independent, today’ll be a new Scottish holiday.
Saw Ozzy Os ra nicht too, doing his “coo-coo”
Although the SC is what we expected, it’s hard not to get depressed with our environment at the moment.
Yoons on Twitter out screeching early this morning. I just block. Tompkins sneeringly taking credit for his part in the Myth commission. Yoons in general celebrating Scotland is to be shat on – yet again.
If you watch Parliament or the news, it’s enough to make you contemplate living in a cave somewhere.
Watching the limp ineptitude of any number of English and Scottish Labour just rolling over for the Brexit tanks progress. No fire or passion from that herd of sheep. The Tories are running amok, with Labour’s blessing.
It’s horrible in a voyeuristic way, thinking you just don’t relate to these people in any way.
IDS now calling for Justices to be scrutinised, so back to the ‘enemies of the people’.
@Rock says: 24 January, 2017 at 9:29 pm:
“As I had been saying:
“If the twats in the Supreme Court delay Brexit, and blame the Scots for it, it will only be for the benefit of the
Establishment, not because of Scotland’s pretendy “sovereignty”.”
Aye! Rock, We noticed what you keep saying.
“They did worse than blaming the Scots – they ruled that the Scots count for nothing.”
Aye! Rock and we noticed that too. And here you are all so pleased with yourself, as you tell us how much you agree with them and keep telling us all we count for nothing just like they do.
Yesterday marked a new day in Scotland’s journey..
As we say..
Mark the day.
X.
Je suis Andy Dufresne!
@pnr
I know what I meant. I meant peaceful direct action as I outlined earlier. What you think I meant, I can’t control. To reiterate, I do not believe in violence.
As to the unionist reaction, if they decide on violence, then that is their downfall.
As to legitimacy – do you believe in the rightness of your cause? I’m sure you do. Do you believe the majority is always right? I don’t. The majority believe in capital punishment. I don’t – it is fundamentally wrong and unjust. Should the majority have it? No, they shouldn’t. And this is just one of the many ways in which the tyranny of the majority can misgovern us.
Furthermore, isn’t activism a sort of violence against democracy, against the settled will of the population. Why do we strive against the majority’s wishes. Every reform, every advance had to fight against this inertia.
SO get busy living.. or get busy dying.
To live..
Vote Yes2!
ps, welcome to all ye nouveaux commenteers.. have ye been a short, mid or long term lurker?
Oh nice front page, National !
https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/823987718116048896
Aye.
SO.
Choose life.
“Furthermore, isn’t activism a sort of violence against democracy, against the settled will of the population. Why do we strive against the majority’s wishes. Every reform, every advance had to fight against this inertia.”
Majority wishes?
Tory UK gov has just over a third of UK votes, over a third UK voters don’t vote at all. ToryUK gov’s under election fraud investigation across England.
2015 General election results summary
Party Seats Votes
Conservative 331 11,334,920
Labour 232 9,347,326
Scottish National 56 1,454,436
Liberal Democrat 8 2,415,888
Its very mad.
@Kenlike
So what is it then. Support UDI and get the gloves off or get a second Independence referendum and accept the result?
Your all over the place, just tell us what you believe should we get the gloves off and “take matters into our own hands” or not?
DO YOU ADVOCATE UDI OR NOT?. Simple question.
@Rock says: 24 January, 2017 at 9:55 pm:
“But unlike you, we are not a laughing stock.”
Can’t say I’ve noticed too many laughing, Rock, But I concede that perhaps you can see further than I.
Then again, if I can make them laugh, I may well be stopping them from crying.
Also the only ones claiming that I’m being laughed at seem to add up to two and both of them seem to be doing exactly what the Supreme Court of the de facto Parliament of the country of England did but they both did it first.
We used to have a name for people like you – now what was it again. Oh! Aye! A Blawhard – that was it. Someone who held opposite views to the majority and who never ceased shouting about it.
You do realise you are both gloating because a court in a foreign country has told us we are of no consequence to then and we do not exist except as part of their domain, or perhaps you are just not bright enough to realise that you are.
Valerie @ 00:09:
Heh, heh, heh. Nice one! =grin=
And I suppose the Sewage Convention has just gone down the khazi.
Simple question. Simple answer. Yes
I’ve tried to outline my position and my reasons, to no avail.
You seem wedded to the idea that UDI=all out civil war and to the essential fairness and decency of British democracy.
I disagree.
In other news, RT reporting more Trident mishaps. If you’re an MP or a taxpayer you don’t need to know about it, says Minister for Defence, Michael Fallon, it’s actually none of your business.
It’s beginning to look as if Britain doesn’t actually have a nuclear deterrent.
Robert Peffers, since Mr Rock has got personnel about you, I have no issues saying this he /she is either a Troll, A 77th Regiment member, a Blowhard as you say, a total wanker or maybe all. One thing for sure he is no friend to Scottish Independence constantly on here trying to disrupt the discussions. Maybe we should start to log when he and senile dave makes comments along to see if we can determine their work pattern.
Ian Brotherhood a fine gentleman who I have met several times at WOS get togethers invited him along to the last gathering, he declined with abuse aimed at Ian, says it all really.
Keep up the good work Robert, most if not all genuine Indy supporters support you.
Kenlike
Others have discussed UDI today and I won’t go over old ground. One scenario which concerns me greatly is the prospect of another independence referendum with a repeat, or even ramping up of the relentless threats, propaganda, external influence and tremendous pressure brought to bear on the people of Scotland to secure a No vote.
I read Derek Bateman’s piece today and I could sense his frustration- how could anyone vote for us to be a region, a colony when the masters down south are so inept that they would drag us out of not just the EU but the largest market in the world, on our very doorstep? Well, they did and many of them will again.
A loss under those circumstances where we feel robbed, bullied, cheated, abused again or indeed a failure of the SNP to proceed with a referendum followed by a period of intense economic harm will only lead to relations between Scotland and England worsening. Job loss (and there would be many, I am certain) once we leave the EU could well have people out on the streets and although there is no reason to believe our peaceful civic movement would become violent nor should we pretend that unrest is impossible.
You cannot endlessly lie to, frustrate, rob, intimidate, berate, ignore etc etc a people in perpetuity. Something has to change or something will give. That is why when the new referendum is called we need so desperately for it to be conducted in a way that the outcome cannot be questioned and that means a referendum for Scotland that is vehemently even angrily resistant to outside interference. Another illegitimate result will not end the matter as we have seen from the continuing support for independence.
Can the Scottish Government petition the EU parliament to formally oversea the process? Perhaps the people of Scotland need to consider a petition on their own behalf rather than from one political organisation to another?
@heedtracker says: 24 January, 2017 at 10:16 pm:
“I’m laughing that they think they can bully anyone off the internet.”
Aye! heedtracker and you don’t know just how funny it really is. I first worked on a computer in a then top secret MOD establishment away back in the early 1950s. Now just how many people back then even knew what electronics were never mind computers?
Another funny thing was a bit later, in a mixed group of trades apprentices including joiners, shipwrights, painters and so on, having a big argument and someone claiming I was a laughing stock when I said men would go to the moon and walk upon it.
Then, between July 16, 1969 – July 24, 1969, Neil Armstrong took that gigantic step for Man on the moon. Ye get numpties in every group of people, ye ken.
I’ve been on the net since there was a net.
@Kenlike
Well good luck with your support for UDI. You might believe it possible without any consequences and if you get your wish I would hope that you are right and I am wrong.
I’d rather just put it too a democratic vote, Ken like?
UDI, as I have said here before, is the worst possible option and will not happen.
It is there only as a last possible nuclear option and would probably lead to trouble from unionist numpties even if there was a massive yes vote in an indyref2.
It would certainly lead to the worst possible starting relationship with the rUK.
@Kenlike says: 24 January, 2017 at 10:17 pm:
” … I concede that some of my earlier comments smack of fire-breathing sedition but I fear that the SG’s careful, legalistic manoeuvring is painting us into a corner and risks alienating its support
No, my friend, the time for action nears”
Nah! Kenlike. Here is a thought for you.
That time for action you speak about?
Just what is it you think we are all doing here on Wings almost 24/7/365?
Every one of us is working our wee socks of and most are not just doing so on Wings. The biggest job that we can do as supporters of independence is to vote but the next biggest is to inform and convince others to vote for independence.
Now consider this, look at the readership of Wings. Take a, (if you will pardon the expression), conservative estimate, (and not to labour the point), assume your estimated number converted just one person each to get out and vote SNP or at lest an indy supporting party. We would walk the next elections and win the next referendum.
Most here get out and do speak to others all the time.
@Tam Jardine
This worries me enormously. Not so much the venality of our opponents. Any long-time reader of this blog would have plenty of evidence of that, but the inertia of ordinary people, this peculiarly Scottish capacity to endure suffering. We need something to cut through that, some form of action that really speaks to people.
A petition? I don’t know. You’ll no doubt know of the haughty disregard of the Chartist’s petition in 1848.
UDI without the support of the vast majority of the population is a coup, put simply.
And if you have that majority, why not a referendum instead? Simples, really.
The only hypothetical circumstance that I can foresee where UDI would be inevitable and successful is if a significant majority for indy was glaringly obvious to all, both north and south of the border, and UKGov attempted a Spanish-style advance veto of a referendum, or attempted to reject the result of a legally-constituted referendum.
But the veto/rejection would fail, and UDI succeed, because of growing popular support for indy in defiance. That’s what real sovereignty is and how it moves.
But either way, the majority is essential. And as we have just seen, with a legal referendum, the majority need only be slight. Unlike UDI.
@Robert Peffers
It is not my intent to discount anyone’s commitment or activity. I’m sure everyone here and elsewhere is focused on the objective of full sovereign independence for Scotland.
It’s just that I happen to disagree on tactics and strategy towards that destination with some on here.
@Kenlike
“This worries me enormously.”
Hahahha so it does. Time for you to change course. You’ll no doubt know by now that I regard you as a troll, not even a funny one like not so Sensible Dave.
Now move along, allow us to talk shite without listening to any of yours. Go read the Chartist’s petition of 1848 again.
You diddy!
The SNP are representing the position of the Scottish people.
The fact that they are being ignored by Westminster helps their case for Independence but they can not call a snap referendum until Article 50 has been implemented.
It is early days and we are all a bit wound up over the Court decision but rest assured there will be plenty of snubs and face slaps to come
Will the UK be hampered in its negotiations with the (EU) if the real possibility of it only being England NI and Wales
Will Scotland be on the hook for 9% of the 60 billion supposedly owed to the EU ?
The more I think about yesterday, the more angry I am. This should be a game-changer but, like others above, am concerned that it is washing over the heads of the No voters. The ramifications have to be hammered home without respite.
Maybe that’s Nicola’s plan, with the Legislative Consent Motion in Holyrood. I can’t wait to see Kezia Dugdale’s head spinning when she has to vote on that one.
I guess we’ll have to wait on Article 50 being triggered before announcing Indy Ref 2. Hopefully, those will be done on the same day for maximum effect.
Is Smallaxe OK?
Haven’t noticed anything form him today.
What is so wrong about having a discussion, a debate, about differing with one another. FFS, man, do I have to agree with everything that’s said here or with everything you say.
The Chartist’s petition of 1848 was dismissed out of hand by a contemptuous British government.
As to the personal abuse, well, that really makes a strong argument.
@Kenlike
Fuck off, I’m not interested in anything you have to say. Away and start your UDI support somewhere else.
You turn up today and bump yer gums, I dismiss you out of hand. So fuck off and stop wasting my time.
Most Indy supporters agree that SNP is our vehicle, whether they support the party or not.
Nicola Sturgeon has made it very clear UDI is not an option.
So, its not an option.
No point wasting time debating it. No point whatsoever.
UDI is not up for debate on Wings, it’s really simple, it is not what we choose as the means to gain our independence. The ends do not justify ‘any’ means. It’s not difficult to understand this position. Unless of course you think you are dealing with a ‘rabble’ which we are not.
‘As to the rest, all I have to say, is that there is a populist wave at the present time and Scotland should get on board.’
What? The: ‘Rightwingjingoisticnationalisticbloodandsoilwedon’twantnoimmigrantsstealingourjobsGlobalBritain’sEUcitizensascasinochipsclosethebordersandfuckeveryoneelse’ bus?
Scotland has it’s own bus: Independence by peaceful and lawful means, we’re doing it and it’s working.
Here’s that little vote thing CH mmm…ed earlier:
55% in support of 2nd indyref, it’s awright Stoker it’s no a direct link tae the Tele rag, direct link tae the yes or no click 😉
http://renderer.qmerce.com/interaction/561f9a3b41d4754d1457ea7d
Some interesting stuff via Aileen McHarg
https://twitter.com/AileenMcHarg/status/823828386892091392
for instance 132 of the judgement with talk of “anomaly” and “incongruity”, but while looking at it I also noticed this:
“In light of our conclusion that a statute is required to authorise the decision to withdraw from the European Union, and therefore the giving of Notice, it is not necessary to reach a definitive view on the first referred question. ”
So basically speaking the UKSC ran away from making conclusions about the devolved administrations, because (I think presumably) of their decision already that the UK Parliament would require legislation.
Which seems to me to leave open the possibility of further Scottish Government action, even in the UKSC, which might then be forced to rule on the removal of devolved adminstrations’ legislation without consent.
So the Constitutional crisis still exists, it’s just deferred till later.
But hey, I could be wrong!
The Sovereignty of the Scottish People, by the way, in my opinion, wasn’t even touched on with this ruling, which was primarily about UK parliamentary sovereignty over the executive. People sovereignty over Government as in the Claim of Right, still totally exists.
In the end, the UKSC dodged the issue, and put it down to the political sphere. Which still leaves the constitutional issues wide open, perhaps even more than before. Enforceable Sewel could have been a limiter, as the UK Government would have had to use it. “Convention” is far more dangerous because it can be ignored legally, but certainly not politically.
@K1
Well done, I never thought of that.
As I said earlier… calm and patience required.
Today’s result wasn’t exactly a surprise and, as it happens, also quite necessary.
One layer at a time, the political union is being exposed for the establishment sham it’s always been. Westminster and their media are doing exactly as their nature demands and THAT entails a great deal of our heavy lifting.
Just keep talking to each other, to your family and to your friends. Keep contributing to your communities and your local charities. It’s a hard time out there and set to get harder yet. Whatever the next couple of years brings politically, financial hardship is a certainty and folk are going to need help. Let’s show the political class how its done. 🙂
Mmm, interesting, makes you wonder:
“Which takes us to the economy. Nobody argues any longer about the fact Scotland is in the red – the issue is how to handle that debt.
. . .
In very rough terms, if you want to keep NHS spending, pensions and welfare, then less will be spent on defence.”
Alex Bell in the Record last Sunday.
http://archive.is/Tfnbv
Perhaps I’m being pedantic, but I see a big difference between a UDI which I don’t advocate, and formal reinterpretation of Scots law and sovereignty which I do.
To call that a UDI is not correct. It would not be unilateral for one thing, it would be multilateral recognition and correction of an unlawful situation to become a lawful situation. To my mind that does not require a referendum or a UDI. It is in fact the living embodiment of due process and application of law.
Nor is it a coup. What would you call the cheating and lies and rampant propaganda surrounding the YES referendum but an inverted coup where our legitimate democracy was seditiously perverted? You would have us suffer the same again? Or do you somehow believe our democracy won’t be molested and skewed this time around? Precisely what has changed with the vile media since 2014? Aren’t they the ones assaulting democracy?
If you insist on calling that a UDI or coup, then to my mind, you are rejecting Scotland’s legal title on its own sovereignty; a commodity which is unalterable by democratic opinion.
I repeat myself, you cannot change the laws of science by democracy, nor solve mathematics by public opinion. Scottish sovereignty as defined and recognised in the 14th century as a unique and perpetual constitutional definition is a binary black and white option; it either exists or it doesn’t. If it exists, it is absolute. If you claim it doesn’t exist, then what you are accepting is that Scotland doesn’t exist, just as the Unionists claim. That puts you in the same place as Mundel.
Establishing Scotland’s legitimate sovereignty need not be the formal termination of the Union which a UDI would be. A legal edict that the Act of Union is unsound could auger in a neutral, indefinite and probationary situation, similar in nature to the holding pen status mooted by the EU; a state of transition which bends strict application of definitions and legal principals while a Nation gets its house in order.
Once the UK enters that “holding pen” status, or if the UK refuses then Scotland alone, and then holds a democratic plebiscite to choose whichever LAWFUL constitutional future Scotland pursues.
Take our case for sovereign existence to the Court of Session, and the ECHR and have its legitimacy recognised. Such an act of legitimacy and recognition must inevitably deem the Act of Union illegitimate. Fix what is wrong, then whatever we build is on a solid foundation. No longer will our country be vexed by this constitutional purgatory.
@Breeks
There is much in what you say, but the People of Scotland are Sovereign, and have said NO to Independence. This was their – our – exercise of self-determination in Indy Ref 1 where 55% voted against.
However, if the SG went to the Court of Sessions and won, perhaps confirmed in the UKSC, and it was ruled that the Treaty / Acts of Union had been breached and no longer held, then Scotland would have full Sovereignty and our Parliament, but would have to respect the previously stated Democracy of the People. The Rule of Law is one part of democracy, but so too is the will of the people.
I think what the SG would then have to do in the immediate term is construct something similar to the Scotland Act, but instead of “Reserved to” (the UK Parliament), would replace “Delegated to” the UK Parliament, and potentially reconstruct a more favourable Act of Union, under its control to later amend or repeal. That would respect the democracy of the people of Scotland.
It would then not neccessarily need a referendum. but political parties could stand for election on their manifestos to “undelegate” any powers they liked, even all of them. Or call a referendum to do so immediately, to have a chance of staying in the EU.
That’s a democratic and legal form of UDI I think would be acceptable.
Some posters in the past 12 hours or so have commented on Jim Sillars putting his head above the parapet.
I just wish Jim would simply shut-up and retire to the bowling club.
When I first voted, our local MP was Emrys Hughes, a Welsh-born left-wing Labour firebrand, who had married Keit Hardie’s daughter. He was a lovely man, a complete gentleman and a great constituency MP, forever a thorn in the side of the right-wing dominated Labour Party and an absolute hater of Tories.
He died and was replaced by Sillars, who was, as a young MP seen as a future Secretary of State for Scotland, but, he got delusions of grandeur, fell-out with the Labour Party and started his own, failed Scottish Labour Party.
He lost his seat to the official Labour Party candidate, George Foulkes. Now, say what you will about Lord Foulkes of Cumnock as he now is, but, George was a much-better constituency MP than Sillars had been. Liz, Lady Foulkes as is, was an absolute diamond if you had a problem – since she handled most of the constituency surgeries.
When George was enobled, we got Sandra Osbourne, who was a total waste of space – a “Low-flying Jeannie” who rose from nowhere and has vanished back there since Corri Wilson unseated her at the General Election.
Corri, has already proved herself to be a better MP.
But, back to Sillars. I always felt, Margo was keeping him on a short leash and “on-message”, Since Margo’s death, he has, in my view, been out of control and trying to prove himself still relevant.
Jim – time to quit, your day has come and gone. I think, in his heart, Jim Sillars wants an Independent Scotland, but, only if Jim Sillars is given that age-old title: “Guardian of Scotland”.
A wee thought for those on here who are proposing that the Scottish Government or the SNP declare UDI.
Ian Smith, in Rhodesia, declared UDI – Rhodesia got Robert Mugabe and became Zimbabwe.
Be careful what you wish for.
Och, ah wis lookin’ forward tae the new name Scotbabwe anaw!
@Socrates MacSporran
I should reword that last bit to:
“That’s a democratic and legal form that absolutely isn’t in any way shape or form that nasty internationally totally unacceptable, very foolish, and likely to cause civil unrest of a severe magnitude, unprintable word, no, oh no no no, I think would be acceptable”.
@yesindyref2
Yep, totally agree, shredding and exposing the Sewell Convention was the lesser of 2 evils, body swerving the Treaty of Union is highly significant in itself.
@Yesindyref2
Yeah, seen this resurgence of the UDI question and done my damnedest to ignore it. Its not anywhere near required IMO either.
We can do this the right way. Peacefully and at the ballot. Right now a perfect storm is building in circumstances and most of the hard part has been done for us.
Calm, measured, methodical. Dot the ‘i’ and cross the ‘t’ on procedure as each opportunity is being presented. A chain of events has been set in motion. A chain with an inevitable outcome. A second opportunity for the people of Scotland to make a choice.
A lot of work has gone in to keeping doors open for the Scottish electorate in the past two years. It’d be a shame to fuck it up now out of sheer impatience and rash action.
What is Scotland? Wales is a Principality, Northern Ireland is a Province. Are we a Region or a Colony?
Links
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/01/24/reporting-scotland-uses-out-of-date-figures-to-distort-the-truth-about-scotrail-performance/
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10170/siobhan-tolland-why-indyref-2-more-essential-our-democracy-most-realise
Alex Salmond asked “Why doesn’t Nicola Sturgeon call indyref2 now?” Newsnight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adblj5sv8tw
7pm this evening /Interview with Simon Malzer from Inform Scotland discussing their bill board
https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/InformScotland
A wise man once said there is many ways for Scotland to gain her independence.
Lets not dismiss all possibilities however unlikely the outcome is,but i do agree UDI is a different plan and has no relevance to the be as big a pain in the arse as you can and mess up their political system get brexit then leave the UK via the big door marked EU.
So far the plan is working well 🙂
http://www.friendsofeurope.org/future-europe/brexit-supreme-court-crisis-article-50/
http://www.thecanary.co/2017/01/24/government-court-defeat-could-lead-to-a-new-scottish-independence-referendum/
Council boss election fees should end say MSPs
http://archive.is/11TSR
https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/01/24/alternative-facts/
http://rbs.postach.io/post/its-people-stupid
https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/01/23/trident-is-an-affront-to-scotland/
http://tarffadvertiser.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/nuclear-waffle-and-piffle.html
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10178/scots-german-mep-appointed-chair-eu-parliament-foreign-affairs-committee
UDI is a NoNoNo
The Independence dominoes are falling in perfect sequence.
As Macart and others have said, to interfere with what is already taking place would not be clever. Quite the opposite.
Iraqi refugee stands for Glasgow council elections to repay Scottish neighbours for their kindness
http://archive.is/dprPS
Scotch whisky ‘contributes £5bn to UK economy’
http://archive.is/riYhF
http://en.mercopress.com/2017/01/20/cia-1982-plan-to-hand-falklands-to-argentina-and-relocate-islanders-in-scotland
Iain Duncan Smith’s Supreme Court Brexit Ruling Response Rubbished By Secret Barrister
http://archive.is/0omRS
So when do we get rid of the Court of Session then? If Scotland doesn’t technically exist, it’s a peculiar wee constitutional niche Scotland’s lawyers have carved for themselves.
Threaten to shut down that and see if the Lord Advocate suddenly comes up with any fresh opinions about Scotland’s sovereignty and constitutional predicament.
Whether it’s appealing the High Court judgement on using the Royal Prerogative, or refusing to answer Andrew Marr’s question about Trident, or declining the invitation to address the Irish Parliament, the Prime Minister seems to lack sound judgement. A talent she shares with her cabinet.
Perhaps Mrs May has too much on her mind already, but she seems to be like someone who has got on her bike without realising that the tyres were flat. As everyone can see, she is making difficult progress, with no sign of improvement.
Eventually, she will either come a cropper or she will give up. In the meantime we can enjoy watching the spectacle with no real need to be anxious about her progress.
And she has yet to trigger Article 50. Enjoy.
Normally I could take or leave anything written by Kevin McKenna, but his article in today’s National is dynamite. 😉
Great front page from The National “Choose self-respect”
http://www.thenational.scot/
@Jim Morris
Scotland isn’t an anything, according to Snackbeard Mundell
we gave up our rights to existing
The United Kingdom of England is all and everything so let us be grateful for their magnanimous charity in all things
If only Scotland was more murdery like Norn Ireland then we’d be offered a special deal like them or like Nissan or the channel islands or London bankers or well anybody else but Scotland really
You’ve actually more chance of getting a fair deal if you’re a plumber in Pimlico than you have if you’re a businessman in Glasgow
Nana 7.22am
Interesting BBC piece. I loved this bit:
“Britain has its own oil and gas supply, but while it exported £10bn worth in refined oil during 2015, and as much in crude, it imports £29bn worth. So it’s a net importer.”
To my knowledge none of the oil and gas figures form part of the income and export stats. Scotland’s export figures inc crude, refined oil and gas would be significantly higher. We all knew this but it is nice for the BBC to put some numbers on it.
They also claim the balance of payments would be 3% worse without whisky exports. They only take the figure for whisky- as if the whisky industry alone might secede. Surely the pertinent angle to take would be the % for Scotland including all our oil and gas. If the UK is a net importer of oil to the tune of £9bn you take about £19bn off the export figure and that’s net importer to the tune of £28bn.
These are big hits for balance of payments. And that makes the national debt look pretty onerous for them.
Radio shortbread this morning “Oops sorry! we seem to have lost Mike Russell, But Lord Lawson will be along later”
Phucken Hoors!
LOL Torygraph poll now showing 57% in favour of IR2!
Keep it going folks – to do a GIRFUY on the Torygraph – worth the click-throughs!