Fleeing the field
The media coverage of the first TV debate between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling was a classic, but transparent, stitch-up. A poll which had a majority Unionist sample before the debate began duly reported a “victory” for Darling, even though among the sample’s small number of undecideds most thought Salmond had won.
But that crooked measurement was enough to justify a week-long frenzy of front pages portraying the debate as a fatal disaster for the First Minister and an epic, decisive triumph for the angry former Chancellor. Inconveniently, two new polls this weekend both showing a swing to Yes and a single-figure No lead somewhat undermine that narrative, but the No campaign is nevertheless desperate to quit while it’s ahead.
This site has been documenting for the last year the anti-independence side’s tactic of avoiding debates wherever possible, whether by refusing to participate in the first place or pulling out for the flimsiest of reasons. But today’s Sunday Times reports perhaps the most absurd and comical excuse yet.
By this mind-boggling rationale, “Better Together” will have to stop campaigning entirely on August 26, more than three weeks before the actual referendum. Because if the argument is that you can’t debate anything once the postal vote forms go out, that must logically apply to ALL forms of debating, not just televised ones.
(Are we to presume, incidentally, that all TV will be ruled out after August 25? Will “Better Together” decline to send representatives to current-affairs shows like Scotland Tonight and Scotland 2014 for the last three weeks of the campaign? Or is it fine to debate independence on television as long as it’s in short soundbite formats? If so, what’s the cut-off point at which it’s no longer acceptable? 10 minutes? 20?)
A vote won by a TV debate performance counts exactly the same as one won by a leaflet or a doorstep conversation or any other method. Yet apparently the proud and patriotic defenders of the Union are happy to give up on a million potential votes – 25% of the entire electorate – the moment ONE of them might already have been cast.
That you can’t have a TV debate once the postal-voting forms have been delivered is perhaps the most jaw-droppingly stupid, ludicrous thing the No camp has ever asked the people of Scotland to believe, and that’s no small accolade. Readers who aren’t howling-at-the-moon insane might feel that the real explanation is altogether simpler.
As a disabled Scot, with my vote coming via post, there’s no doubt in my mind that it’ll be a nice big fat Yes from me on the form. If the BT lot haven’t convinced me in the last ten years for a positive case of the Union, writing them off for a month isn’t going to hurt me one wee bit.
Love it, they are so trying to quit…..must have realised Flupper is an asset and ‘must not be deployed again’
Seriously Stuart …are you still surprised at the sheer ineptitude of the ‘No’ camp hierarchy?
Mate …if we win this …you now have your next mini project. Write a book and call it ‘How not to win a Referendum while calling half the nation a bunch of Nazis’.
Writing about each stage of the Better Together’s campaign will be comedy gold. Seriously.
my mother has recieved her postal vote already 17/08/2014
I’ve said it before, but we have to be vigilant when it comes to PV. Best way to commit electoral fraud.
Sky should go ahead with the programme and have Eck answer questions from genuine Don’t Knows instead. That’d be more enlightening for many than a debate with Flipper.
So, I take it Better No U-KOK Thanks will stop ‘campaigning’ once the postal votes go out?
It is up to Alex Salmond to do what was expected of him in the last debate. He MUST put plan B to bed in easily understandable language . Gloves off, Alistair Darling back in his box and shut the lid. Nothing less will suffice.
Union lovers who need to get as far as possible from debates quickly might want to have a look at purchasing a pair of these;
http://thescottishscaremonger.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/health-and-fitness-special-offer-run-on.html
sorry its not ballot paper just a notification about postal ballot
Surely the first question for any BT representative appearing anywhere after the 25th should be ‘Why are you here, if postal votes have already been sent out?’
I won’t hold my breath on seeing it, though.
Maybe it’s because they know they have enough dodgy postal votes rigged to swing it for themselves by then? 😉
Darling has been banging on about postal votes the past week should these not be separate from the ballot count as in X amount from PV = yes/no and the on the day vote = yes/no
The no camp cant control sky. That’s the real reason they don’t want a 3rd debate. Vote Yes.
Darling pulling a Naomi Campbell : I don’t get out of bed for anything less than 5.3 million voters.
While we’re on the subject of postal votes, the 2010 General Election postal voter percentage was around 13% (http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/105896/Plymouth-GE2010-report-web.pdf)
Darling says it will be 25-33% for the Referendum (http://www.scotsman.com/mobile/news/politics/top-stories/independence-darling-warns-of-yes-camp-tricks-1-3488803)
I note that he was careful to mention postal votes a number of times in his Reporting Scotland interview last Friday.
Is it just me or does anyone else smell something fishy?
If sky had any balls they would invite AD or Cameron to debate and hold it anyway if they don’t turn up. Wasn’t that what STV did?
Well they’ve got a week to work out how to rig or just cancel the BBC debate…
The cynics among us might think they don’t need to prove anything once they’ve posted off all their votes. Remember the Labour leaflet that had a ‘hundred’ next to the ‘do you want a postal vote’ box?
Forget the polls, forget the “big picture”, forget the TV & MSM, forget possible vote rigging.
What do do have control over – Focus on your local tasks. Individual conversations, posters, paper deliveries etc.
Individual acts will win this now. We have thousands of activists and NO have a handful of “boots on the ground” in a few central belt areas.
The No Campaign will hide behind BBC Scotland, STV and the rest of the MSM.
They will do the dirty work for the No Campaign in the last three weeks.
Darling, Lamont and the rest of them are nothing but cowards.
A clue of what they are all about is in their name,
“PROJECT FEAR”
Because they now live their lives in fear, of everything that they will loss personally.
That is what they are really frightened of.
they’re running scared for sure.
any undecided/wavering voter, has plenty of time to get their votes in.
the PO have vans these days not horses.
Concerned about the postal votes too. Anyone know how the veracity of these is going to be checked?
Another typo – doh!
“what you do have..” Leave the do do to NO
They have never wanted to debate as they always lose – that is why they hold onto the polls and the media spin and lies to promote their case for the Union.
There is no credible argument for the Union and they know it.
We will keep campaigning right up to the vote and we will win.
Hope over Fear – vote YES.
McTim
there will be a lot of scrutinizing eyes.
They can run, but they can’t hide.
The WBB or a YES canvasser coming to a door, street, fair ground, workplace, hall near you from now till Sept. 18th. 🙂
I’m used to my Inteligence being insulted by the BT mob,but more fools them.
Utterly bizarre!
Is it perhaps because, the ” only joking, what’s your plan B” pish, has been blown out the water?
Is there still time for folk to change from postal vote to a paper vote on the 18th?
Maybe a brief article on how to do that would be beneficial in minimising the risk of unionist fraud, on the premise that the unionists will cheat the postal vote?
The Architecture of Violence – grousebeater.wordpress
It was obvious to anybody who wasn’t blind to the obvious the victory celebrations sponsored by the British press began before the ‘match’ started! Darling was working to a rigid template.
I think that I can consider myself to be a seasoned Wings reader and had seen it all but this takes the Tunnocks Tea Cake.
The bit in the article “If Mr Salmond had not spent so much time trying to delay the BBC and STV debates other bids could have been accommodated” Seriously jaw dropping stuff!
Postal votes should be counted separately from the main vote. I would also have liked to see election ink used to stop double voting.
Can there really be 1 million postal voters? Can we find out how many postal voters there have been at previous elections?
BTW I manage to put my socks on the right feet every day, so much for not being geneticly proggramed to make big decissions,and ma Mammy dizna hiv tae rite Left / Right on ma wellies.
So BTUKOKNT believe that the old biddies, male and female, with postal votes are the ones who will win it for No?
If AS goes large on the threat to the NHS and how soon that could happen so that me and the rest of the elderly would be caught out by having to pay to visit the doctor, being refused medicines as we don’t have enough life left to make them “economic”, etc., then BTUKOKNT could easily drop 100,000 of the 600,000 postal votes they are counting on.
Another line to disrupt the elderly voting pattern is to use their No preponderance against them. Reuse No’s “can’t be undone” to suggest that the elderly should be cheering on the youngsters who want to make something of their lives rather than imposing our outdated views on them. We won’t last long enough for the changes that Yes will bring to affect our lives, our lives will be much the same under Yes or No so we should leave the decision upto the youngsters who are supporting our old age in either case.
Wonder if there will be a late excuse to weasel flipper out of the next debate.
Sky blaming both sides for one side pulling out !!
Aye ok then..
Every Yes voice could refuse to co operate with the media on the grounds that to do so would be wrong due to the postal votes being sent out.
As such ask the electoral commission to ensure the No side also respect their own mantra.
I agree with BT, lets make the last 3 weeks media free and let it become solely a grass roots battle on the streets for votes..!
Think we Yes thinkers have to be unrelentingly positive from hereon in and convert the Undecideds or No’s with simple, straightforward points, the simpler the better.
Hoping that the younger generation, too, “get it” that they’re not readily believing the BBC news or papers – and that word of the Wee Blue Book is getting into their hands, in pubs, clubs, music festivals, etc ….
Maybe they know the result of the postal vote already and think they ate way over the finishing line?
Last Tuesday the Community Council in Ellon held a Referendum Debate, From the outset it was decided that if one side didn’t turn up the Debate would still go ahead. The Yes submitted their two panellists names the No submitted one name which was later withdrawn it was then explained that the debate would still go ahead the No side then submitted two panellists names who turned up on the night.
It was good to see such a large audience attend and the debate was a big success [see Ellon Community Council Face Book page] the point being if you inform both sides the debate goes ahead regardless of whether they turn up or not this should encourage their attendance.
The paranoia of the average scotsman will reach record levels as the Referendum approaches, and not without cause.
“Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get me.” Woody Allen.
Someone on the John Beattie show this morning asked a Labour MSP,
“What is your Plan A after a NO Vote”.
We are still waiting on it being answered,
because they don’t have ANY plans for Scotland.
think they ate way over
Stop thinking of Blair McD; he may be the right shape but he is NOT a panda!
Quote: Someone on the John Beattie show this morning asked a Labour MSP,
“What is your Plan A after a NO Vote”.
caz-m: if they didn’t answer that then they didn’t get the memo from Margaret Curran to say “just vote for Ed in 2015 and everything will be fine” (aye right! the guy isn’t even convincing swing voters)
Michael mcCabe hits nail on napper with his comment.
Why is there a three week gap between postal vote deadline and actual referendum date, why wasn’t the deadline date not September 4th?
Is there a demo at BBC HQ today or is it next week? Or have I missed it already?
AS could announce he is willing to go ahead and debate with the invited audience. Ball in SKY court.
it does appear that the NO campaign rely on the corrupt Westminster tools to “win” elections (rigged debates, rigged polls and rigged postal votes). DC says the loopholes allowing rigging of postal votes will be fixed before the 2015 general election. I wonder why? Perhaps the preponderance of riggable constituencies in Labour strongholds like Blackburn? Craig Murray recounetd his experience of this some time ago.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/06/new_labour_post/
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/04/blackburn_counc/
E Mail your MSPs, that no voteing papers are destroyed until a examination committee is set up for each Region,every ballot paper should be crossed refferanced ie council tax / electorial roll.
Anytime, anywhere as long as it is a date and place of our choosing it would seem.
Is this principle going to apply to the General Election debates in 2015? Is Ed going to refuse to debate Dave after the postal ballots have gone?
Big Jim Murphy had better get his skates on if he’s going to complete his ‘100 Towns’ Roadshow. Shawlands was, according to him, number 48.
I have been using a postal vote for close on 20 years, and am certainly deeply concerned at the figures being bandied about that seem to show that requests for these have doubled. Neither the electoral authorities nor any of the political parties have ever, as far as I can recall, made such a concerted effort to ensure that people can cast their vote as has been made here. Laudable, but definitely suspicious.
O/T Alidair Darling live on tay fm talking mince as usual also some numptie just asked him if an independent Scotlan would be a haven for murderers and paedo’s because we wouldn’t hae extradition treaties cos we r oot of europe
Alex is on the next hour
Flipper stuttering through with the scottish banks pish on clyde 2 radio
BuggerthePanda is probably closer to the Truth than any of us wingers care to admit.
On this website we have seen “YESSERS” WHO ,unbelievably, actually admitted to – PHOTO-COPYING – Postal Ballot Papers that negates ALL the Security Measures “Indented” on ballots that ensure compliability.
ALL these PHOTO-COPIED Postal Ballots are automatically – REJECTED.
Some other “YESSERS” have paid good money – NOT TO BE IN SCOTLAND – on the most historic day in the History of Scotland.? Chose to be “ON HOLIDAY ABROAD” .?
BT doesn`t need to rig Postal Votes when some are arranging for their ballots to be Rejected by their own idiocy. OMG.
@handclapping
I have a postal vote (rural area) and the voting cards arrived with my elector number on it. The ballot papers will be sent by 3rd September. There are instructions on what to do if you prefer to vote in person i.e. cancel your postal vote before 5 pm on Wednesday 3rd September. There are comprehensive instructions on the card with contact numbers for help.
The papers are marked with special ink so they cannot be photocopied and the returning officer is supposed to check a sample of the signatures against your own signature when signing up for a postal vote. That is the point which can be misused although in the Glenrothes case he said he checked 100% of the signatures!
However, the whole fraud issue does need watched. Filling in papers for the elderly or inventing whole blocks of fictitious voters in empty care homes etc seem to be the most common methods. The potential for manipulating prisoner votes has been squashed by refusing the the opportunity to vote in the referendum.
In 2010 the last TV debate was 29th April for the election on 6th May. Surely the postal voting was running by the 29th April ? (my quick search didn’t find the opening date for postal votes in 2010.)
I suspect the postal vote increase is down to two things.Higher turnout of maybe 20% more than normal.Interest in voting fro people on holiday etc.However it does seem to be too high and given the lies about the oil and currency dirty tricks are possible.I would hate to think we lost because someone pulled the referee as how could we prove it.The other thing is the no side need to maintain the lead in the polls so that they can say well its not a surprise if there is any funny business.In any case I am hoping it doesn’t matter.Most yes people are saying the working class and unemployed vote is 78% yes.Despite what John Odious Mcternan says the majority of Scotland is in that area and not in the middle classes which account for only 25% of the population and 40% of them are yes anyway.Its the elite that only make up 10% of the population which are your hardcore Brits.No are pulling from a very narrow % of people in Scotland.Revolution takes place against the will of the bourgeoisie and elite hence the anger and rage they are feeling.Its like mighty mouse beating Ming the Merciless in an arm wrestle!
Ian on Murphy the Mouth: Shawlands was, according to him, [only] number 48.
I enjoyed that remark. There’s satire in the commonplace.
Anyone have a link to full coverage of that No Thanks event where Alistair Darling was confronted by an angry Yes man? (Yesterday, or day before.) Only saw a very short clip of it, and it didn’t reveal what the man was asking about.
OT
Darling is stuttering, gulping and falling over his words as he trots out lie after lie on live radio now.
He will be followed by Alex Salmond at 12 midday.
Live now on Radio Tay.
http://radioplayer.tayam.co.uk/live/
@Edward
The idea of the postal vote is to allow those that would otherwise be disenfranchised by the requirements of modern living to take part in the democratic process. Think those on the rigs, commercial travellers rather than those on holiday or too lazy to get out of their armchair.
The three weeks was to allow for the postal packs to be delivered (not necessarily in the UK), attended to and returned and for the Returning Officer to process them, opening, checking signatures, opening voting envelope and putting extracted ballot in ballot box for counting on the night.
“We made it clear right from the start that all TV debates would have to be done before the first postal votes go out” sayeth BetterTogether and based on what electoral regulations or legality or, just plain old UKOK bluffers in action.
Wonder what other kinds of public debates, canvassing or infact any campaigning they’ve decided ends on postal vote delivery day? One more cheap trick from Project Fear.
Capella: That is the point which can be misused although in the Glenrothes case he [returning officer] said he checked 100% of the signatures!
In that case it was a waste of time tossing the Electoral Record in the communal wheelie!
HS2 and London sewers have a barnett spend is darling being honest
I have a postal vote and it’s worrying too. Recoded delivery a must.
O/Topic
Follow the Yes Convoy live.
https://sites.google.com/site/yesconvoy/home
We made it clear right from the start that all TV debates would have to be done before the first postal votes go out” sayeth BetterTogether
And the sentence continued…
The Tory party’s Australian Spin Doctor told us in no uncertain manner to avoid all person-to-person debates.
Thought headline referred to the three massive oil and gas fields off the west coast that the BBC and MSM are hiding from public gaze.
Bentley, Clare and Laggan Tomore
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/clair-ridge-and-scotlands-new-oil-boom/
@ronnie anderson
Don’t forget the dead can vote as in the 1979 referendum! They will still be on the electoral roll. Some dedicated NO fanatic will be filling in their postal ballots after channeling their wishes.
Sorry, I haven’t read all the comments, but can anyone rationalise the reasons for 25% of the electorate to want a postal vote for this critical referendum? Are one million of the electorate genuinely unable to attend a voting station? I find this hard to believe and would want to know how these voting preferences were organised and by whom.
The prevalence of past form in the manipulation of the postal vote should give everyone cause for concern. What rules are in place to monitor this effectively? Will postal votes be recorded separately (after all this is not a general election) and who decided these rules?
25%! If, there is any suspicion of fraud, how can this be dealt with? Will the same rules be applied if a voter gets to the voting station only to be told that they “have already voted – postal” which they deny?
I have raised concerns over the postal vote since this campaign started and have seen nothing online to assuage my fears. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
BT are depending on the carpet-bombing by MSM and sniper fire from their own. In short, they are cowards. Gutless, spineless cowards with no argument or stomach for one.
Ronnie Anderson you are correct The Scottish government should insist that NO ballot papers should be destroyed until they are cross referenced. We should all write to the Electoral Commission demanding the same. These postal votes stink to high heaven
It seems as if they don’t need to bother after the postal votes have gone out,(even though some may not be returned right away),also all you need to know about the debates can be found in various channel newspaper reviews.They seem to have interchangeable reviewers who never have a positive view of indy.
Agreed Ronnie A, the ‘new’ postal voters are those that have never voted before, although they have had the opportunity, targeted by door-steppers to sign-up, I’m sure there will be a list somewhere in the depths that shows regular no show voters which maybe the rigging way?
Handclapping: think you be surprised, a lot of the ‘old biddies’ are people that signed the Declaration in 1950’s, voted in 1979 so haven’t forgotten being betrayed, worth reminding though if DK.
Mother-in-law, who lives in sheltered housing, received ballot card during the week. And with it was a card for the previous occupant, who is deid.
darling curiously made that point 15 8 14, it bugged me then. i asked myself then why is this his concern.
people who are already certain which way they will vote, will send vote off by return or thereabouts.
mostly only the undecided’s won’t.
so why possibly starve the uncertain of more info before they cast their votes?
was darling signalling the end of the tv debates then?
does he believe people will panic and vote no, why the pressure of a deadline?
it’s the vote that is important, not so much how it gets to be counted on the 18/9.
the 1st postal votes will be sent out the week commencing, 25 8 14.
the earliest the PVotes will be received is the 26-28 8 14
“If your postal ballot hasn’t arrived by 12 September, or it did arrive but you lost it, you can request a replacement in person from your local council up to 5pm on 18 September” – See more at: http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/faq/voting_by_post.aspx#sthash.GsHXfa8k.dpuf
Wee point made many times.
The Scottish Banks allegedly “SAVED” by Krash and Darkling had LESS THAN 10 PER CENT of their shares held in Scotland.
Therefore, more than 90 percent of ownership was held OUTWITH Scotland.
When LESS THAN 40 PER CENT of the Scottish Bank Shares were held within the UK – MORE THAN 60 PER CENT was held OUTWITH the entire UK.
Therefore Krash and Darkling “BAILED-OUT” Foreign Pension Funds and Hedge Funds with our taxes.
AND these two incompetent Muppets (Krash and Flipper Darkling) pretend they can Forecast Failure of a Future Fiscal Scotland after Sept.?
After they FAILED in Predicting the Crash of 2008 – When they held REAL Power in Govt before being exposed as Muppets by 2010.
Gimme a friggin` brek.
Sorry to be o/t.
A Facebook friend has asked for help debunking the infamous meme which shows a deficit in Scotland. I know Scott Minto produced another meme in the same format with the correct information on it, but can’t locate it. Any help?
It’s not just YES supporters the Better Together management and its prominent supporters hold in contempt. It’s voters as well. They can hardly bring themselves to behave with decorum and dignity in public. Look at Darling’s angry tv interviews where he can barely contain his synthetic rage, and Sarwar and Lamont’s awful tv debating performances which were both beyond the pale of standards expected of elected representatives in a liberal democracy. Others have mentioned the silly schoolboy prattish antics of the Better Together management team which seemed to have died down a bit.
As I mentioned before, the twitter portrait image used by Rob Murray, Better Together Deputy Director of Operations (Grassroots), sums up for me the way BT take the public for granted and think they can get away with any old disrespectful, embarrassingly unprofessional tosh because the almost 100% foreign-owned and controlled Scottish news media is on their side and won’t hold them to account.
Rob Murray
https://twitter.com/robmurray11.
“Vote Early. Vote Often”
Resurrect the dead!
From instructions on the card:
How to Vote
….3 You must sign the postal voting statement (unless you have already been granted a signature waiver) and give your date of birth, This is a security measure. It will not affect your vote or mean that it can be identified. Without your signature (unless waived) and date of birth, the statement will not be valid and your vote will not be counted. The Counting Officer will check your details against those provided on your postal vote application.
…6…you can return it to any poling station in the council area on polling day.
@Tony Little
In the beggining almost 100% of postal voters returned a vote. The parties were quick onto this and started getting their supporters to sign up. However this has not stopped the general apathy with politics and now the return is down to 80%, which is still better than the 60% of the vote on the day so the parties and Yes and No are still pushing for their supporters to sign up
Here’s the real future under Westminster.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/almost-500000-public-sector-jobs-face-1073193
Clootie
I agree that this is the feet on the streets stage but disagree about forgetting about the MSM and BBC. As the Rev says “there are many who don’t use the internet or wouldn’t come to a politics website” and they are still being spoon-fed the ”Fear of the Day”.
It was always going to come to this stage where the No lot would shout louder at their own than they have been at us. They do not want to lose any more ground and are now openly lying to anyone who will listen.
It is interesting when you engage DKs and Def Nos about other policies that do not get the widespread coverage in the Press that many agree with the Yes views.
Get out there and volunteer for leaflet drops, canvassing or at Yes stalls and shops. Start conversations in the hairdressers, at bus stops and in pubs. Everywhere. Wear a badge, carry spare badges and hand out the WBB (when we get it) to all Nos and DKs.
Project Fear’s big fear is that we ‘educate’ those who have never taken an interest in politics before because of the “What’s the use, we can’t change anything” attitude in the past. Well now we can!
To those who aren’t able to vote who are watching this from afar lamenting “If only I had a vote…” If you have friends/relatives/workmates who live/work/study here who have a vote and you covert a DK or a Def No that that’s the same as having a vote (sort of).
At least you can point out where they will get more information about their worries.
Off leafleting again today. It’s great fun and you meet people from all walks of life with different views on why they are voting Yes.
I have raised concerns over the postal vote since this campaign started and have seen nothing online to assuage my fears. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
No and it’s probably too late now anyway. The penalties for fraudsters are there too so it’s going to be a serious decision for an electoral fraud plan to succeed, without getting detected. The most common electoral frauds by post are someone other than the actual postal vote holder actually voting. Massive loss of postal referendum votes are unlikely as it could void the result.
Keep claim, vote Yes.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/election/article-1271522/General-Election-2010-Postal-voting-farce-shames-democracy.html
I’ve never trusted postal ballot forms & plan to be at our local polling station at 07:01 however in the event I can’t make it, emergency proxy vote requests can in special circumstances be granted up to 17:00 on polling day.
Obviously you don`t send the photo copy Wampum!! How are the returning officers to know if you have photocopied your filled in postal voting form BEFORE posting the original!
The thinking however stupid you think it is, is that there exists a collectable store of photo copies should there be suspected dirty tricks which are more than likely. I am only saying.
todayinscotland
The last GERS figures showed a marginally bigger deficit in Scotland than the Ruk for 2012-2013, what the Scottish GERS figures did not show was the rebate that the BOE paid back to the Treasury for QE interest payments, and also there was no pro-rata share of the Royal Mail Pension fund on the Scottish Books, combined these would have taken Scotland’s “Deficit” down by over 4 Billion pounds for that reporting period. Therefore our relative “Deficit” would have been substantially less that the Ruk.
Bear in mind that in an independent Scotland we wont be paying for things like London Crossrail, HS2 , and a score of others things that are deemed british, and with 90% of oil revenue taxation its unlikely there will be a deficit at all.
If BT were going to play funny buggers with the postal vote wouldn’t it be better to play to lose a little ground after they’ve been sent out in order to explain any difference in the results? Besides which I’d have thought it wasn’t the date they were sent out that counted but rather the date they were sent back.
A good thing about that article though, it does make clear it’s the No campaign who aren’t interested in debating.
Col, there was a BBC demo yesterday, but it was small, because the authorities apparently put obstacles in the way.
LiveStream has footage here…
new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/BBCBiasIV
The report says ‘its only right that debates between the leaders of the Yes and No campaigns have been seen by then’ (para 9)
We haven’t had any debates between the leaders of #yes and #no yet
We have had debate between representatives of the Scots Government and #bettertogether but nothing from Blair Jenkins
Are #bettertogether planning a debate between Blair Jenkins and Alastair Darling before the postal votes are issued and if so which TV station is it going to be on?
Tony Little,
Some of those will be to ensure that people can vote.
I thought of changing mine from postal but should the day dawn and the car packs up, my wee mobility scooter would only get me the first couple of hilly miles of a 7 mile trip.
It is not because I am, as Handclapping suggests, ‘too lazy to get out of their armchair.’ but because some days even that is a difficult and painful process and I do not know in advance which days that would be.
Every election when I could have got to the vote I regret it as, weirdly, I have aways enjoyed going to vote. The one time when the car was at the garage and the wrong part arrived so I did not get it back in time made it worthwhile missing going in person all the other times.
A May 31st 2009 post by Craig Murray on New Labour and electoral fraud in postal ballots.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/05/electoral_fraud/
“…The prevalence of past form in the manipulation of the postal vote should give everyone cause for concern. What rules are in place to monitor this effectively?….”
Wings Over Scotland and other YES campaign groups have appointed Referendum Agents. (I am the one for Edinburgh)
Referendum agents are responsible for appointing representatives in their area to attend Postal Vote Opening Sessions, Polling Stations, and the Counting of Votes.
In the next few days I will be looking for Wings volunteers to be our reps in Edinburgh. I expect my fellow Wings Referendum Agents in other areas will also be looking for volunteers and liaising with the other YES Campaign groups so all sessions, stations and counts are covered and subject to close scrutiny.
OT – Did anyone see the two fighter jets over Princes Street last night what was that all about a show of UKOK strength?
As far as I can see there was no mechanism to prevent me from adding any number of fictitious names to my postal vote application.
Thus, instead of the single voting card I received yesterday, is it possible that I could have received say three more.
And in due course, I could have signed all four postal votes with my YES/NO preference at my discretion.
All it requires is a signature to validate each voting intention. But who’s signature? I could just make them up. Thus this is the easiest security measure to bypass yet.
Or can someone put my mind at ease & convince me that this can’t happen because of some sort of security check I haven’t figured out yet.
And can anyone convince me that this easy fraud won’t happen all across the had core labour heartlands in Lanarkshire, Dunbartonshire & east Tayside?
@ John 12.08
You might find this statement in the HoC interesting, spelling out the varied methods of fraud. It’s from a link in a comment in the Craig Murray post I mentioned earlier. The speaker is our very own Gorgeous Georgeous
http://tinyurl.com/nnf53f
Surely it would therefore be possible for Reps to have a substantial list of postal voters results in their area as a check against skull drugery. Nothing to prevent them returning to Yes supporters with a postal and asking them how they voted or is there?
Sunday politics: Bill Jamison left stuttering and spluttering when Jean Freeman tackled him on Scottich NHS funding if there is a NO vote. A deffinate whitewash. Jean 100% superb.
Jim Murphy talked over John Swiiey’s attempts to answer on Ferguson’s (shipyard PG). Murphy is totally ignorant in general, but particularly about shipbuilding on the Clyde, and what Westmisters part was in the loss off All shipbuilding and heavy engineering at the tail of the bank.
@ Ian Brotherhood as the ( Angry Man ) I can say I was refused entry to the Darling meeting in Caotbridge ie ( the hall was full ) it was’nt full,we had spies in there from the Yes camp & I had tickets for the event
Alex Salmond on Clyde 2 radio, saying a new large oilfield found off the east coast of Scotland, apparently it will be announced tomorrow.
MrSalmond also confirmed the existence of the huge, Clair Ridge oilfield.
Daniel Hannan @DanHannanMEP · Jul 14
I’m worried that UKIP’s cyber-nats, like their SNP equivalents, are alienating moderate voters in advance of the referendum.
bfh–compares UKIP to SNP,what a uneducated fool
& thats Coatbridge
Someone raised elsewhere a concern of mine about postal voting which is about the requirement for a six month residency. Is there any means of actually checking that someone has been in residence for six months before the issuing of a postal vote?
@ronnie anderson –
Pity you couldn’t get in. I can’t be the only one who would pay serious dosh to see you head to head with Darling.
O/T Nob Orders song
http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/scotland/independence-referendum/indy-ref-unionist-group-release-no-vote-video-1.526386
gavin lessells says:
17 August, 2014 at 12:23 pm
Surely it would therefore be possible for Reps to have a substantial list of postal voters results in their area as a check against skull drugery.
Duggery. I have a postal vote and I got a phone call from a lovely SNP lady after the EU election or maybe before and she just asked if I had actually got my postal vote. I asked her if we were going to win and she was a bit cautious.
@croompenstien
The jets are part of the tattoo. They fly east west and come right over our house at the end of the show.
They have been doing for years but used to be only 1 plane so doubling their efforts I see. ( or hear!)
We have postal votes because on one occasion we missed a vote because my husband was rushed to hospital. Because of this ongoing health issue we opted for a PV. At the European Elections we filled in the ballot paper but took it to the Polling Station and placed it in the ballot box ourselves. I know this may seem daft but we would never forgive ourselves if on this occasion we assumed all was well and missed our vote because of health issues.
http://cneifiwr-emlyn.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/go-for-it-scotland-ewch-amdani-alba.html
Off topic, but of interest
Thanks clochoderic, enjoyed that on Radio Tay.
Oh dear! I’ve been selected to ask a question at the debate on 25th August…no pressure then!
Croompenstein, the flypasts (usually one per night) are part of the Military Tattoo, and have gone on nightly for at least the past few years during the tattoo, I believe. They tend to be from the Scottish based squadrons – Typhoons from Leuchars and/or Tornados from Lossiemouth.
Please check out the Scottish Farmer, a publication read by all or most of SCotland’s usually small conservative farmers. Their headline for issue dated 16 August 2014 is as follows: “FARMING LEADERS SAY YES”. The article goes on’ “Voting Yes to Scottish independence would have no ‘downside’ to Scottish farming, it has been claimed, but voting NO and staying under the control of Westminster will leave the industry on course for disaster.”
And now BBC fav NO historian, Sir Tom Devine, has just announced he is switching his vote to YES! YES! YES! YES! We are going to win this. (Sorry Prof, no more Beeb gigs for you ….)
Robert Llewellyn Tyler
Thanks for that link, excellent piece
flooplepoop, nice little coca cola type video promoting graffiti, just whats needed.
Not quite the Proclaimers .Are we still going to all buy a song in the last to weeks ?
OT again.
Sorry – but this photo made me laugh, then I wondered if any readers could provide a witty caption.
https://twitter.com/jackiebmsp/status/500792714762280960/photo/1
The latest “polls” on the Scottish Independence Referendum are misleading, and one wonders whether they are merely being produced to sell papers by giving the impression that the race is close. Both the detailed Scottish Social Attitudes survey and the most recent Yougov poll found results of YES 39%, NO 61% (excluding don’t knows).
Peter Kellner has already written authoritatively that the ICM/Survation/Panelbase polling companies all appear to have faulty weighting for their voter sampling for the referendum. I now expect NO to win by a country mile and settle the issue for more than a generation (certainly in my lifetime).
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/01/why-do-polls-scotland-vary-so-much/
In the Guardian:
‘Tory strategist Lynton Crosby aims to keep Cameron out of TV debates’
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/17/lynton-crosby-veto-leaders-debates-cameron
‘ Lynton Crosby, the Australian strategist paid £500,000 by David Cameron to help win him the general election, is determined to block the staging of leaders’ debates on television.
Downing Street sources say Crosby has made clear in private talks with aides that he cannot see any advantage in Cameron taking part in the debates.
It is understood Crosby hopes that by complicating negotiations between the parties and the broadcasters over the number, style and timings of the debates, the debates can ultimately be avoided.’
It’s not just Better Together !
@tartanfever
Of course its BT, they are financed and controlled by the Tories. Darling Murphy and the like are just Tory puppets to make it look as if they have popular support. If Lynton Crosbie says no, BT has to say no too.
@Robert Llewellyn Tyler:
Thanks for posting that link. Really moving to see that Welsh support.
Flooplepoop
has the same affect as “indian love call”, in “mars attacks”. all we want control of is our sovereign bank a/c, therefore our assets and resources so that we can decide what our money is spent on. once that is done, i might be so excited i’ll offer to by the no camp a round of drinks, perhaps not.
“Peter Kellner has already written authoritatively”…
No alert needed.
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/323/1/b/Young_troll_by_trolineke.jpg
@daodao
Everyone’s out of step but YouGov eh?
Sorry to go OT but is anyone having problems sending messages through the contact form?
I keep getting spam alerts in red and it will not send?
I always got a Yes feeling from Tom Devines books. My favourite author on Scottish history and this recent announcement has cemented my decision.
On the flip side I have been trying to work my way through former Ebc drone Fiona Watsons book about Scotland’s history. hard work to say the least.
O.T.
My no thanks friends on facebook are posting this link: http://scotslanding.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/dissecting-wings-over-scotlands-wee-blue-book-and-why-im-still-a-no-voter/#more-190
I hope someone with more nounce than me can make an article refuting these claims. I’m not sure if comments will be shown allowed on the linked article, worth a try though.
Jonathan Lindsay
Nothing to worry about in those ‘arguments’. Just make sure you get the ‘WBB’ into their hands. Hard Copy preferably, I think that has much more impact.
Concerned about verification and validation of Postal Votes, the mechanisms to prevent fraud if any have not been made clear to the electorate in Scotland.
No fan of artificial TV dinner debates, would much rather watch a series of unscripted town hall debates.
Canvassing should only stop when the last puts his mark on the ballot paper.
@JGedd
You are asking at the wrong point. If you are on the register you can have a PV no questions asked. If there is a question of “residency” it should be raised on or before registration.
@memaw
I am sorry to tell you that you lost your vote at the European Election. If you want to make sure your PV is received by the CO then when you have filled in your vote put it in the envelope, sign the declaration etc and take the whole package and give it to the clerk at the polling station. There are special arrangements for these on the day PV to be rushed to the PV “office” to go through the checks etc and be in the postal ballot box by 10pm.
If you fill in your PV early and post it, you can check that it has been received on the internet, details in your PV package, and if it doesnt turn up you have time to ask for a replacement.
@ Jonathan Lindsay, you dont need to renounce this “academic” just apply some good old common sense. eg, jump into quite a lot of uncertainty waffle but that’s often the hallmark of nice but dim academics for teamGB-
“But arguing over whether we should be quoting the last year’s figures or the last five years’ figures is completely besides the point because the truth is that you can’t predict the health of an independent Scotland’s economy using precisely two variables and without knowing basic structural factors like our borrowing arrangements. The one issue alone of the amount of interest we’d pay on the bond markets can be enough to change an economic boom into borderline bankruptcy (as Eurozone states showed during the Eurozone crisis) yet we’re expected to believe that we can say with certainty Scotland will be wealthier simply by pointing at net taxation revenues and receipts of public spending. We don’t even have a solid answer to the currency we’ll be using, far less anything else.”
No that’s all just tub thumping. We’re not expected to believe that we can say with certainty anything. And neither can we say with any certainty the how and what a Westminster UKOK economy will be like, even by Christmas let alone, several years hence. Boom and bust is the UKOK perennial record though, unlike say Scotland’s petro economy based neighbour 150 miles away across the blue beyond.
But that doesn’t prevent just one dreaey peddling project fear away and oh dear, all that uncertainty Scottish economics has, if Scotland votes to run Scotland.
What a boring ukok blog too:D
Re: photocopying postal votes –
There was a post on here a while back, from someone who intended to copy a blank postal ballot and send it to a relative working offshore, in place of applying properly for a PV.
I think that is what was being referred to as counter-productive, rather than photocopying a completed ballot before submitting it (which should be perfectly ok).
Darling got lucky in his first encounter with a slighly off-form Salmond but he’s pushing his luck to the limits if he thinks he’s going to get away with it a second or third time, and the newsprint media and BBC are leaving themselves very exposed to utter disbelief by voters if they try the same stunt of spinning Darling as winning when we can see over and over again that he isn’t.
I’ve just moved house. I have received voting cards for myself and also for the previous tenants. Were I a unionist I may have retained them to vote early and often.
O/T
Last night in the pub with ex-pat friends who were home on a visit, one of them says he’s going to be back to vote No in the referendum.
He went to London in 1978 and has lived in Europe since the early 80’s. He inherited his dad’s house here when his dad died a few years ago, he doesn’t rent it out but uses it himself about 6 times a year. Without tenants he is paying the Council Tax.
Does any of this entitle him to a vote? If not, how do I go about clyping on him?
@brotyboy
Someone asked me a very similar question a few weeks ago re an ex-pat who had never lived in Scotland but had a house and family here; his wife must have put him on the electoral roll. He was a UK citizen.
So I investigated, and it seems that it is possible to challenge an entry on the electoral roll, whether it is your own and you think it is inaccurate, or someone else’s which you think should not be there.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/scotland/law_s/law_civil_rights_s/law_government_and_voting_s/voting_procedures.htm
“You may wish to object to the inclusion of your name, or someone else’s name, in the register, for example, because you believe they are no longer resident in the constituency or are not entitled to vote. You can also object to the inclusion of your details in copies of the register which are sold to commercial organisations. If you wish to object you should contact the electoral registration officer (chief electoral officer in Northern Ireland) and put your objections in writing. The local authority may have a standard form that you can fill in. Any person on the electoral register (not necessarily in the same constituency) may make such an objection.
If the registration officer (chief electoral officer in Northern Ireland) decides to disallow your objection immediately, you will be notified of the decision and the grounds on which it was made. You then have three days from the date of the registration officer’s notice to ask for a hearing – see below.
If there is a hearing, both the objector and the person they are objecting to will be able to present their cases.”
This link also talks about the rules for registering if you live abroad. Unfortunately both your pal and the one I was told about before are probably legitimately registered.
Crazycat
A walk in driving rain on an island off Oban has extended my paranoic thoughts on Postal Votes.
On the assumption that all councils not under SNP or Independent control i.e. probably Labour might be inclined to pass on a list of postal voters to their crooked friends at BT. They have the means to do this and a majority.
I doubt if the Electoral Commission would even notice if they did.
It is therefore imperative in my humble opinion that Yes organisations counter this by drawing up their own list
This would put us in a stronger position to detect fraud and to obtain an early poll on the trend of voting before 18th. Copies of their voting completed might also be useful.
Dr JM and stonefaction – Thanks for that I wasn’t sure the tattoo was still on, it was a bit scary they were really low and really close to each other but I did notice the UJ flying high over the castle let’s hope it will be replaced with our saltire on the 19th Sept
@ gavin
I agree – and am getting more paranoid by the day if not the minute!
It doesn’t help that some people trying to be helpful were suggesting doing something which would have resulted in an invalid vote. I just hope they saw the posts explaining this.
In my area (Ayrshire) there are 3 local authorities, but only one registration office address, with different sections. Two councils are SNP, the other has “a minority Conservative administration working in partnership with the Labour group” (!)
I’m not sure that it even needs anyone to pass information on though; the full electoral roll is available to all campaigns and has the postal voters marked; someone with enough time could make their own list. My understanding is that up-to-date versions of the roll will be available in early September.
Crazycat
Many thanks, that helps.
I was told on Friday by an MSP that the returning officers were asking that cameras are banned from polling booths. Are they worried that cheating might be discovered? The No campaign can photograph my ballot paper any time they like. What are they worried about?
Are they going to frisk us or do a full body search?
@crazycat
I have to admit to being very confused about this. Alan Cumming bought a house/flat in Edinburgh but can’t vote because his job proves he is not resident or domiciled in Scotland. My friend is no different.
He lives in Switzerland; does this make a difference?
@ brotyboy
Not sure! A Swiss citizen could not vote, but a UK citizen living in Switzerland is covered by the overseas voters section of the CAB link (I think).
Normally, such overseas voters cannot vote in local or devolved elections. This – http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/who-can-vote-referendum-scottish-independence – implies that non-residents are excluded for the referendum too, but coming back a few times a year might count as residence.
I could suggest you contact your local registration officer, but they seem to have been giving out dodgy advice. A student I know has been denied a proxy vote after admitting that she will be away for more than 6 months, yet nothing on-line indicates such a cut-off. I’ve heard other examples but cannot remember the details.
Challenging the registration sounds like the only option.
@ gavin
It is illegal in the UK to take photographs of a ballot in a polling station. This is to ensure the secrecy of the voting process; otherwise I could make you pledge to vote a certain way under duress and then demand photographic proof that you had done so.
This was discussed at the time of the Euro elections, when a politician in the Netherlands (where it is perfectly legal) posted a “selfie” of him and his completed ballot, and there was concern people here might follow suit and invalidate their votes. The ballots would be confiscated and there would be no obligation to issue a new one.
Banning cameras makes sure this does not happen and is probably a good thing, not a sinister one.
Anyone considered military postal votes as a possible way to rig the vote?
There’s not enough military votes X.
In any case, they dont really provide opportunity for it, especially if you’re outside the uk
Edward robinson says: 17 August, 2014 at 10:31 am:
It is up to Alex Salmond to do what was expected of him in the last debate. He MUST put plan B to bed in easily understandable language . Gloves off, Alistair Darling back in his box and shut the lid. Nothing less will suffice.
What plan B would that be, Alex?
Would it be – Scotland will use the pound but would prefer a currency union?
Or would it be – Scotland will use the pound and would prefer a currency union?
Or perhaps it would be – Scotland will use the pound and would prefer to have a currency union?
Or maybe it would even be – Scotland will use the pound and would prefer a currency union?
As a last resort it would then just have to be – Scotland will use the pound and would prefer a currency union?
And if that too failed then the most desperate one of all -Scotland will use the pound regardless and would have preferred a currency union?
So many plans – so many choices. Salmond really does need to make his mind up which one it will be.
Aye!
Richt!
Tattie-bogle says: 17 August, 2014 at 11:32 am:
“HS2 and London sewers have a barnett spend is darling being honest”
Check this out Tattie-bogle :-
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4757-cameron-must-explain-why-scots-have-to-pay-for-londons-sewer-upgrade.
The scheme not only included the cost of the scheme but provided a £60 cut in every household in the SW England water area. It was finance from Government reserves instead of the normal DEFRA funding.
Are postal votes filled out in pencil or ink?
If in pencil, there is a risk they could be changed before the count.
Yes voters, mark them in INK in such a way that it cannot be erased.
NOTHING is beneath the British establishment.
I’m not too worried about postal votes. I’m sure it was with voting fraud in mind, that Salmond was so insistent on the ereferendum being scottish made and built in Scotland. He is wise to the usual tricks and will have taken every measure possible to make it neigh near impossible to cheat on a large scale.
Add to this the election scandal of 2007 and the adverse publicity it received internationaly, then it would be very silly to risk another ineternational scandal.
Finaly the MSM is out on a limb in the final week and election day, as the eyes of the world be focused on the election therefore there will be foreign journalists and TV crews present in Scotland to report on the goings on. Relax:)
Flipper is banging on about postal votes because this is the first election in decades where labour is not in a position to fiddele them.
I was almost certain that Darling would even fake a heart attack to get out of the debate with Salmond.
But he would have lost all credibility, if he ever had any in the first place that is, if he did.
The BBC debate will be in an extremely safe environment for him, so he won’t mind too much, especially after his ‘victory’ at STV.
Sky could be a wild card and Darling would no way agree to that.
johnny come lately,
“Add to this the election scandal of 2007 and the adverse publicity it received internationaly, then it would be very silly to risk another ineternational scandal.”
You think the British establishment is worried about ‘looking silly’ after achieving a No vote by rigging it?
It is not beneath the British establishment to create a nuclear war somewhere to get its way.
Alex Salmond is wise but can he match the resources of the British establishment which includes among many other things the Electoral Commission, the BBC, the media?
Anyone who thinks that this will be a fair and democratic vote is extremely naive in my view.
Grouse Beater says: 17 August, 2014 at 11:32 am:
“Capella: That is the point which can be misused although in the Glenrothes case he [returning officer] said he checked 100% of the signatures!”
In that case it was a waste of time tossing the Electoral Record in the communal wheelie!
Well no. Did not ballot boxes also vanish?
@Janet W says:
17 August, 2014 at 11:40 am:
“Handclapping: think you be surprised, a lot of the ‘old biddies’ are people that signed the Declaration in 1950?s, voted in 1979 so haven’t forgotten being betrayed, worth reminding though if DK.
This, “Old Biddie”, has had a postal vote for decades, (for various reasons), and I’ve never voted other than SNP if and when an SNP candidate stood and I’m near 80. Tell you something else none of the older folks I know vote other than SNP bar just one guy who is related to a local Labour counvillor and even he is swithering just now. He agrees with the arguments but feels a loyalty to the councillor, (not to the labour party though).
@crazycat
A family member living in Luxemburg has suggested that the Inland Revenue may be interested in anyone domiciled in the UK for voting. Fine if you want to be assessed for income tax on all your income.
No representation without taxation after all.
@brotyboy
Indeed! Good luck anyway.
Silly question but is the level of postal applications generally known before a vote? If it’s as high as is being reported then wouldn’t that tend to indicate that it’d be a whole lot riskier to attempt fraud? The more genuine applications the more chance of a second application at a different address being rumbled. Darling might have a genuine fear that as things stand the postal vote will be for independence.
Marion Collins says:
17 August, 2014 at 1:03 pm
Oh dear! I’ve been selected to ask a question at the debate on 25th August…no pressure then!
Ask Alister Darling what colour of underpants he is wearing, I bet he would even lie about that, just out of habit.
On the postal ballot theories and concerns, ever considered that the BT side will claim postal ballot fiddling as an excuse to claim a false result if there is a YES vote ?
The concern could be more for fake evidence of our side rigging the vote ?
As a shiny new representative of WoS I can assure you, people will be appointed to attend the opening of postal votes in all locations on each day between 29aug and 18sept (Mon – Fri excl public holidays.) Agents are also required to ensure polling stations keep to the impartialit guidelines during polling and also after polls close to ensure the veracity of the counts.
If anyone in the Falkirk Area wishes to assist in any of these roles, please drop me an email : tinchick(at)planetalba(dot)net … Thanks!
Increase postal voting could increase YES. More interested people, interested in voting because they know the importance of the outcome.
Darling lives in London and will not have a vote. His main residence is in London. He has a holiday home in Scotland. All funded by public money.
I’ll be in audience at filming of a bbc debate tonight. two significant figures from No and 2 from Yes. They are still ‘campaigning’