Everybody gets two
Chances, that is.
Yesterday the UK as a whole voted to leave the European Union, while Scotland voted to stay in. Unless something is done, Scotland will be dragged out of the EU against its clearly-expressed will – the margin for Remain was two and a half times the margin for No in 2014.
The temptations for Yes voters are almost overwhelming. The rage that many of them feel is genuine and fully justified. Scotland was lied to remorselessly and relentlessly throughout the indyref campaign, threatened and bullied and cowed into staying in a fantasy UK bearing no resemblance to the one we now find ourselves in.
The sheer irony of the UK plunging into exactly the sort of calamitous uncertainty we were told would befall an independent Scotland would test the character of a saint.
And for everyone whose restraint is being stretched to the very limits of its endurance today, we have a two-word message: George Square.
Remember how we all felt that day, as Loyalist thugs screamed and gestured and gloated across our TV screens? Did it make us more Unionist? Did it make us want to give up, get back in our box, eat our cereal and obey our Queen?
When David Cameron appeared outside Downing Street and started talking about English Votes For English Laws before the counting halls were even empty, did it make us vow to knuckle down and work for a better Union? Or did it make us redouble our determination to stick to our path?
Why would other people be any different?
Social media is already alive with people reporting No friends who now say they’ll vote Yes. If we treat them like Cameron treated Scots on the morning of 19th September 2014, any chance of winning them over will be lost. Venting your spleen in righteous fury will feel good, briefly, but the hangover will be deadly.
If and when – and it surely is “when” – a second indyref arrives, this site will be merciless to those who repeat the lies and threats of the first one. But we’ve just been given a second chance, and everybody else deserves one too. Sometimes the facts we based our decisions on simply change, never mind the enormous pressure that the British establishment and media exerted on Scottish voters.
So this isn’t the time for a shaken fist, a provocative salute or a raised middle finger, it’s time to reach out a hand. People have been cheated and robbed of something they were promised. If they want to join us in fighting for it now, then let’s welcome them warmly, not angrily berate them for being fooled before.
Because the past is done. But maybe that way, they won’t get fooled again.
And we won’t have to endure this a second time.
Couldn’t agree more. Everyone deserves a second chance.
Well said! We need to build bridges not trenches…
Well said! We need to build bridges not dig trenches…
Well said Stu.
The campaign for an independent Scotland starts today.
For me that means going to the pub for lunch with a (formerly) gleeful NO voter friend of mine who emailed me at 5am this morning to say how utterly shocked he was at the #Brexit result. I’m going to buy him a pint.
I have said since I was eleven years old that Scotland should be Independent.
Nothing since then has made me think any different.
Well Said Mr Campbell
Well said Stu.
Also remember many yes voters will have voted leave. We will be asking them to vote yes, with a view to entering the EU again. It will be a difficult choice for them.
We also will have a lot of EU nationals who should easily vote yes this time.
Basically, be sensitive to your audience and we will win this.
Reverend,
Imagine it; Sep 2014 Scotland votes No to independence.
June 2016 England votes Yes. Credit where credit is due, nae feirties south of the border.
Hear hear.
Even before yesterday’s referendum and its calamitous result, I already had several friends who felt that they had made a mistake in voting No. Today’s news has pushed even more towards a Yes vote should indyref2 become a reality. I welcome their support with open arms.
Its hard to look people from Europe in the eye, who call Scotland home now.
I think the people in the above pictures are beyond redemption. They would rather live in a barren apocalyptic scotland, as long as they can still have their queenie and butchers apron.
Well said indeed Rev. The temptation to vent ‘I told you so’ is huge, but that energy is better used in ensuring that – as of today – we work to deliver an independent Scotland and liberate ourselves from the real enemy – Westminster.
Wise words. Still in shock, but, I hope, thinking clearly.
‘I told you so’ wins few friends.
None of my circle of friends voted NO. There could be the odd one who did, of course. I’ll probably never know. But if I became aware, I’d attempt to calmly persuade him/her to the YES point of view. Berating any NO voter would be counter productive, and defeat the object of the independence argument.
Bravo, Stu.
The Yes campaign should just post these images to all homes in Scotland and ask, ‘Is this the Scotland you want to live in’.
Yes or no we are all Scottish, let’s make Indy ref 2 consensual, inevitable and decisive.
Though I still want Ruth Davidson to be charged for hate speech,no one is above the law, her remarks were unforgettable, Jo Cox MP is cold on a mortuary slab, and Ruth is coming to slay us.
She should be arrested as soon as she lands in Scotland!
Wouldn’t dream of gloating and will be challenging anyone who does……we NEED those votes.
Other half works in waste, all NO in 2014
Not today.
Tickets for this train are free, all aboard.
Amen to that Stu!!
Everyone deserves a second chance and we knew that there were many ‘undecided’ voters who voted no because they were scared into believing the lies about the EU. Now they know they were lied to and they are angry. It’s time to welcome them into the fold. My hand is outstretched to shake theirs as we speak. No recriminations from me, only a warm welcome.
WTF???
Sad, Bad day for the UK, once the dust has settled and reality sets in, the truth will come out.
There MUST be another general election, Cameron was bad enough but name me one other Tory who could become PM.
It looks like the Jeremy Kyle followers won the day.
I fully expect Nicola to name the day, the UK is now officially U FU*KED.
No surprise Trump is happy with the vote as the “little Englander” does not have the sense, back bone, brains to stand up to America regarding TTIP.
Boris will take it up the trumpet from Trump welcome to the next state of the USA.
INDY REF 2 YES PLEASE
I agree. As much as I was disgusted by JK Rowlings behaviour of recent years. If she is now on the yes side then we must move on as she has. We don’t want to scare people away that we need to campaign for us.
These people will feel guilty enough about what they have done to get Scotland into this mess. We don’t need to remind them we need to embrace all fellow Yessers……….I might draw the line at Jim Sillars though LOL
Here here! And thanks for the vile memories 🙂
Quite right, Stu. I often get irritated with unionists, but always chide myself to remember that there comes – as to myself, a long, long time ago – that sudden realisation that independence is the only way forward for Scotland.
Agree but don’t think I’m magnanimous enough to embrace JKR
IndyRef2 will only be won with the help of NOs who change their minds. The best way to convert people is to make information available for our case, and to debunk any nonsense from the other side … then let them make their own minds up.
A person who comes to a conclusion by themselves is much more likely to stick with that decision.
Someone bullied and badgered previously won’t respond to being treated the same again, by either side.
Very well said Stu. An open arms policy will do us well. Let the past stay in the past, we can only influence the future.
Also worthwhile reflecting on the behaviour of the remain side; magnanimous in defeat, determined to work for the best outcome in the context of the democratic decision that’s been clearly made. No calls for a second referendum no recriminations over the nature of the campaign, no personal attacks on prominent Brexiteers.
Carpe Diem, Seize the Moment.
If there ever was a good day to ask a ‘no’ voter to reflect back on their decision, today is that day.
So is tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after……
We must offer them our hands and bid them welcome. It’s as simple as that.
Well said. If we are to win indyref2 we need people that voted for and even campaigned for No last time and we need lots of them. Lets make them welcome and let them know how much we value them. This is not the time for saying we told them so.
Congratulations Scotland.
Well played SNP.
I doubt they’ll be any attempt to try to convince Scotland that they’re Better Together in a UK Union in the future.
After all, the Barnett formula just tanked.
I have always been open to those who want to come aboard on our journey. Guys like the ones in the photos may not wish to contemplate that but I can live with that. Many others will. Well said Stu. Time to reach out and be inclusive.
On polling station duty yesterday, with Labour Remain. From Labour roots myself, we had everything in common, bar one thing – Westminster rule – that’s all that needs to change. Yesterday we were on the same side. It felt good.
The Yes campaign should post these images to all homes in Scotland and ask, ‘Is this the Scotland you want to live in’.
Keep the heed. Ours to lose.
P.s.
One Nation One Currency
Totally agree, we can’t afford to get it wrong this time. Meantime, they seem to have completely lost it in England.
Dr David Bull on “The Wright Stuff” this morning has been touting Ruth Davidson for tory leader.
Sorry, but I don’t know one No voter who will change their mind because of this. This area is full of cap doffing, “maister kens best” types who will never vote for Scotland to be independent, no matter how much they are beaten down. Besides, I don’t have the “patience of a saint” and I’m Scottish – I bear a grudge for a long time. Therefore I reserve the right to say “We told you so” and blow a raspberry to them.
Wise words indeed from the Rev – Proverbs 15.1 covers it I think.
When I next see my German neighbour (expecting her first baby and having it here) I’ll give her a hug and reassure her she’s welcome here in Scotland AND my EU flag will remain flying in the garden.
I’ll also go and try and cheer up my Polish and Spanish co-workers, when I see them on Monday.
No way I’m going for a pint with John McTernan or Ruth Davidson.
Unless you’re paying, Stu!
How about England and Wales join the Isle of Man as Crown Dependencies outside the EU. Oh look Scotland’s suddenly independent 🙂
Some folk will never change but those that do deserve to be welcomed to the Indy cause.
We’ll never win our independence otherwise. :o)
Is that Mr Burns’s shadow beside Boris?
Sturgeon on radio shortbread in about 5 mins.
Boris doing the Mark Antony speech right now burying Cameron.
All friends together. 🙂
Absolutely agree.
Apart from Spanner.
We badly need another Indy ref to “take back control” of our own destiny.
Very well said Rev.
Today, more than ever, we need to hold out our hand to people. There’s going to be an awful lot of, very rightly, worried people out there. They’re going to need help and reassurance. They are also going to be needed and essential if we are going to turn this state of affairs around.
Rosettes and recriminations should get dumped where they belong now. This is too important for all of us.
As I already said on Twitter I’ve had 2 folk so far today say they will vote yes this time and like the Rev said they are to be welcomed.
JK Rowling on Twitter saying she was never a staunch Unionist and could vote yes next time….. I really don’t know what to make of that.
The will of the British people must be respected..Oh but not the Scottish British ones says David Cameron
This must be how Andy Murray feels, British yesterday when he’s needed, Scottish if the match is lost
Time for new balls coz it looks like we’re crashing out
As for that lot in the pictures once they realise they’ll get to play football and throw stuff at other people in Europe they’ll vote YES wae their lips trembling
They’ll just deny it after
Yup, completely agree, and hope SNP HQ is busy with memberships!
Listening to the new solemn BoJo, our future PM.
UKIPs time in the sun.
Jakey Rowling now expecting Scotland to be indy after Brexit.
Magic!!
I don’t feel like gloating because there isn’t very much to gloat about. I am actually recalling Chris Cairns cartoon with John Bull cutting the branch which he and Hamish are both sitting on.
I feel more animosity towards certain weak and ineffectual SNP Members than I do towards misguided or unconvinced No voters. Hope lies with engaging with a No voter and seeing their mind blossom as it opens. There is nothing but disappointment to be expected from spineless politico who sees Independence as a meal ticket worth more to him than integrity. I have compassion for one and contempt for the other.
So yes Rev Stu. That’s a good call to be making. We are all Scots, but some of us are just a big reluctant to be free Scots. Its just a state of mind.
But before we bask in the sense of tremendous well being; spare an thought for our Wormtongue media. It will take broader shoulders than mine to be giving them a second chance.
I didn’t want Scotland to leave the UK during the referendum because I thought the UK would be better off with Scottish voters to balance the English countryside voters.
Obviously I was wrong.
This time round, you’ll have another supporter, although one who won’t get a vote. I’ll be cheering you on from London.
And on that note, any advice on how to start an independence for London campaign?
Well said Rev. Let’s all work to get Scotland out of this cesspit of a union and welcome everyone behind that goal. Dare I say that without the lies and fear mongering that beset Scotland pre-Indyref the vote for Independence would have mirrored last nights vote.
Next in the series: “Harry Potter and the Lost AAA Rating”.
The Labour Party were obviously happy enough to see the Tories tearing into each other and, being split themselves with an ineffectual leader, hardly made a sound during the referendum. What we see now is in quite large part the result of this.
It was obviously a very large vote of traditional Labour supporters that sealed it for Brexit.
I find myself this morning wondering what Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson are thinking.
BTW. I don’t believe Boris will allowed to be PM
Hoho
Everyone commenting on Bute House setting.
EU flag one side, Saltire on the other.
Well said.
Circumstances change,and people evolve to meet the change.
Well said indeed Rev. The temptation to vent ‘I told you so’ is huge, but that energy is better expended in working – as of today – to achieve an independent Scotland. And that as soon as humanly possible.
Good point well made
I agree Rev though certain no voters will still get a slap especially those who engineered all the lies,the majority of no voters were conned cant hold that against them and we must give them a chance to redeem themselves.
Come in to the light no voters free your country from batshit mental westminster crooked politicians and help us make Scotland a better place for us all.
Well said, Rev.
Funking hell Stu. those pictures were never ending.
Almost gave masel yon boak.
A second chance indeed but much work to be done as over a Million people voted with them.
Lets get out there .
Hey, we’ve all got our limits. K***n H***e is a step too far for me. But let’s just do our very best.
First Minster press conference now.
It’s on.
Nicola SO impressive. We really are lucky.
Legislation for indyref2 to be started.
Black books at the ready.
Very well said.
Can you make up with JK and get her to put a few bob in?
We will win!
YES 2018
Sturgeon demands to be involved in all talks and decisions involving the next steps.
Mundell senior assisting from behind the scenes according to shortbread radio.
She has already been in contact to arrange a meeting with the EU representatives.
Indy 2 now on the table but not rushing to a hasty judgement she says. Preparing paperwork for Indy 2 following same procedure and doesn’t expect WM to block another referendum.
Many folk who voted NO have contacted her to say YES next time…Maybe JK who knows. 🙂
Glen Campbell into bat first Q. So it begins.
——————————————————–
PS:
Love the map colours… only in the Hootsman. 🙂
https://archive.is/Qn4QY
Woke up this morning with the realisation that Turkeys do indeed vote for Christmas ! I voted yes at Indyref 1 Indyref 2 cannot come soon enough !
nicola
indyref2 is on
I am frankly horrified at the result but I guess this is a scenario that we all knew could happen. Many of us said it would happen in response to Project Fear back in 2014.
I absolutely agree that there are two chances. I have no qualms about accepting a No voter who feels a fundamental plank of their No vote has been torn from them….nor do I ask that they become naughty cyber-nats like ourselves. A simple quiet Yes is all that we need.
Likewise I think any attempt to noise up former No voters should be challenged and stamped on. We need to win votes not alienate them.
Willie Rennie sounded genuinely cut up earlier, for the first time I genuinely empathised with him. A Yes vote might be a bridge too far for him though.
I would like to see the Scottish Government open informal conversations with the EU in the very near future.
Link for Nicola…Anyone?
@Valerie
Rev might need to add a chapter. 🙂
Get in there Nicola! Statesmanlike early warning to Westminster and an appeal to the rest of Europe to work with Scotland to see how we can stay in Europe.
@Twist
The best thing you could do is start campaigning for the abolition of that horrible edifice – the city of London corporation. Basically the institution that runs our Ponzi economy.
Take back the Bank of England from banksters.
Andrea leadsom, ex banker with links to the tax havens looks set to be given her reward for her part in the leave campaign.
The flag waving brexiters don’t realise what awaits them.
Got to say,the First Minister was impressive there.
Sturgeon
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone
Just rewind the player back to about 11hrs 25mins
Yes, building bridges may stick in our throat, but it is the only sensible approach. Note also Northern Ireland are not at all happy with the result. That MAY, lower some previous tensions, I hope it would anyway.
It looks like we are going to get our second chance, let’s get it right this time.
Thank you call me dave
Very well said.
Genuine question: what can those of us in rUK who won’t have a vote in an independence referendum do to help?
I don’t remember the last time I posted here – probably round about the time of IndyRef. But I do read most days and avidly follow the twitter-feed.
I live in Wales now, but will be back if/when there is an IndyRef2.
I voted leave – not because I want to leave, but to lend help to create the result of UK OUT/Scotland IN and advance the cause of IndyRef2.
It would appear that IndyRef2 is now much closer and as Stu says, we must not antagonise Scottish LEAVERS – every vote for Indy Scotland will be needed.
My main point, though, is I suspect that in Scotland there will have been many Scots Indy supporters who are EU Sceptics and who have lent their vote to REMAIN to help trigger IndyRef2. So when IndyRef2 comes along we mustn’t antagonise them by overplaying the EU card. We need to be a broader ‘church’ and appeal a bit more ‘soft’ Tories & sceptical oldies, while retaining our traditional Scottish ‘Social’ left of centre values.
I also suspect we need to try to ditch the likes of Jim Sillars & Tommy Sheridan, who speak to the converted and antagonise more potential YESSERS than they convert – I’m glad Jim Sillars was on the SCOTLAND LEAVE side, he will have helped increase the the Remain vote. (Have a read of his Twitter feed today!!).
So, as Stu rightly says “This isn’t the time for a shaken fist, an antagonistic salute, or a raised middle finger, it’s the time to reach out a hand.”
Northern Ireland secretary says Scotland can’t have another referendum because we knew there would be an EU referendum when we voted no in our independence referendum. Apart from the fact it is none of her business get to fcuk you lier!
JK is the new best friend. Of the legal system.
There are 62Million people in Britain. 17million (nice people) voted to leave. Thanks.
The leavers are like rabbits in the headlights. Now giving all the reasons to stay. Priceless.
Boris and Gove will get the backlash, especially from the young people. Neil is going crazy.
The Rev is spot on with this regarding the previous No vote.
Care and understanding is required to attract No to YES for Scotland … Across the board.
There will be those who will be defiant British regardless and that is their choice.
We need focus and a rigid line on coercion from here on.
Lets not scare off potential YES switchers, no matter how tempted.
We really need to welcome all comers in the end.
Lets stay positive (that’s where the attraction lies during periods of extreme uncertainty).
Democracy’s what we say it is
Say British politicians
I missed the Tank Commanders comments. Could one of you good folks refer me or tell me what she said !!! Aw ra best
Made the mistake of viewing the Wright Stuff – NEVER again.
My thoughts entirely, rev.
The more we get told by the Tories that we’re not getting a second ref, the more converts to yes we’re going to get. This thing ain’t over yet by a long chalk.
Oh Buffalo Gal, where are you now when we need you? =grin=
The UK voted in full knowledge that Scotland might want to leave if an ‘out’ vote happened,but still voted for a majority ‘out’.
Boris Johnson’s father, repeat father, says Scotland won’t vote yes if there was another referendum because of the “resurgence of the conservative party in Scotland.”
I’ll take my chance.
does anyone know the guy who organised the 10,000 flags?
can you ask him if he would do it again?
Now is the time to speak nicely to those who voted NO and try and win them round. To quote a campaign slogan, ‘we need to take back control’.
Did the people of Scotland have a referendum to join this Union? When did we decide that we required the approval of England to leave or dissolve this Union? Who are these Tory politicians who think they can ignore and talk down to the people of Scotland. They become more ignorant and arrogant by the day.
msean @ 12:08 said:
Obviously then the “UK” doesn’t give a toss what Scotland wants. Which is something that some of us have realised quite some time ago, and a whole raft of other Scots are now waking up to very fast.
Stuff the UK. It’s history now.
One of the things that struck me regarding this result in Scotland, is the different franchise used.
iRef – included anyone resident in Scotland (included other EU citizens)
EUref – excluded most other resident EU citizens but still got 62% for Remain.
This may bode well for iRef2, as if the same franchise is used as iRef1, I can’t see many EU citizens resident in Scotland voting NO. I might be wrong, but I don’t think most turkey’s would vote for Christmas.
Jeremy Corbyn may be bounced. Letter of no confidence from some of his MPs.
What about George Osborne…towel folding in the EU not an option
https://archive.is/mfgjx
PS:
Ruthie about 2 hours ago.
https://archive.is/ulmgV
Dave McEwan Hill wrote: “I find myself this morning wondering what Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson are thinking.”
Dippy Dug is advising everyone to “keep the heid”. Yon Dim Ruth is lining up the tanks as we speak, in sheer frustration of her much coveted post becoming available far too soon.
_____
Almannysbunnet wrote: “Northern Ireland secretary says Scotland can’t have another referendum because we knew there would be an EU referendum when we voted no in our independence referendum. Apart from the fact it is none of her business get to fcuk you *irrelevent* lier!”
There, tweaked that a little for you my friend!
Vote of no confidence on Jeremy Corbyn….being called for…
I hope that there will be Indy 2, but not too soon. NO voters, and UNDECIDED voters need to experience the damage that Westminster will do to Scotland. The Majority who voted NO in 2014 were unaware, or wilfully blind, to the damage that English domination has been doing to Scotland. They need time to experience it when it hurts them personally. I don’t wish anyone any harm, but I am convinced that Westminster will treat us brutally.
J K Rowling support may only be a knee jerk tweet, and believe me I’m not a fan, but if she is serious she would be a huge figure on our side due to her fame, money and influence.
We must be prepared to offer our hands to many who we previously were at odds with.
Make our image of a new Scotland an attractive one to come over to.
Whaur’s yer Better Together noo? Good statistic – margin for Remain was two and a half times the margin for No in 2014!! Rennie says he is “angry” at the result. Is that all? He should be glad the Scots have voted for Remain as he campaigned for Remain. But he is a unionist! He probably cannot imagine an independent Scotland in the EU! He is in denial about the democratic mandate Scotland has to remain in the EU. Dugdale is as clueless as ever, comparing the Leave campaign to the Yes campaign in 2014 and does not apportion blame to Corbyn, the closet Leaver, for his lukewarm support for Remain. Dugdale too does not celabrate the Scots had the highest percentage for Remain, even higher than percentages in London for Remain and in the rest of England for Leave. Labour party policy was for Remain, yet their traditional supporters in the North deserted them. But she is a unionist. Cannot think outside the box and even in the box too by the sound of things!! They deny Scotland any independent say or status! Hence their low position among MPs and MSPs. Cannot see Scotland outside of England. As the UK is split, so the unionist parties will decline even further.
@ msean : “The UK voted in full knowledge that Scotland might want to leave if an ‘out’ vote happened,but still voted for a majority ‘out’.”
It was actually a lot worse than that. The propaganda down here was “Don’t let the Scots keep you in the EU”. Same shit as the GE with the Scots pictured as pickpockets stealing the English’ money.
The English don’t give a fuck about Scotland, most of them couldn’t point to within 100 miles of the border on a map. People really need to get that into their heads. The Scots are expendable for the good of a greater (south-east) England.
I was reassured that Nicola basically implied that she no longer cares what Westminster “permits”.
Referendum (whether “allowed” or not) then UDI & entry into the EU seems like the route we’ll be taking. I note with interest the comments of Martin Schulz (EU Parliament President) which suggest that the EU would make the process almost seamless – IF we chose to leave the UK.
I wouldn’t worry what the Tories have to say on the matter anyway – their focus will be stopping civil war breaking out in NI again. The thugs in the photos above carrying red hand flags aren’t going to consent to further integration with Ireland without resorting to violence.
Watch the bigotted little englanders turn their attention on us now the european bogeyman has gone. Anyone wishing to remain in a union with these psuedo-nazis must be off the planet!
No voters you were sold a crock of sh1t, only one way to rectify it…….
Thought wee Ruthie was going to declare conservative udi if brexit won? Bit tricky for her now she seems so popular with the english bosses.
Habib Steele,
I don’t think so. All the lies from Indyref have been exposed. The strongest No areas were the strongest remain areas.
Yes….but ..when it comes to Trolls on here How nice do we have to be ?
As a nice gentle campaigning start we should be encouraging every home to display the EU flag alongside the Saltire.
Craig Murray,
Maybe Tartanpigsy could organise a Saltire with the EU stars in one quarter. It would save on flagpoles!
As I posted on ( The unbroken record) Time to put out the Hands of Friendship & show a United Front in Scotland for Independence. There will be pain in the coming months & years ,until People realize the alternative is Scottish Independence, so lets all re-double or efforts to the at End.
Boris’s message of “no need to rush now that the country has decided to leave the EU” has been well and truly smashed back from several EU leaders. The message seems to be let’s get on with it, what’s the point of delaying article 50.
So “keep calm and relax dearie” has been met with feck you in several languages.
I think we’ll be needing to build a lot more houses for all the young, fit, working age English and Welsh who want to in the EU.
I can’t stop grinning! Went to sleep about 7.00 grinning woke up four hours later still grinning!
As I said to the Natalie the Polish receptionist, funny isn’t it, people were calling you an immigrant and today we are the new immigrants of Europe !!
Couldnae make it up, better get used to standing in the big queues at the airport where it says all other passports !
Posted this on the previous thread but probably too late on for widespread reading –
… and Wee Nicola has rolled the Indy rocket out onto the launch pad. Now just searching for the matches to light the blue touch paper!
Article 50 of Lisbon Treaty,
http://tinyurl.com/d38urjr
it seems the 2 year thing is negotiable,
` two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.`
All the self awareness of a door knob.
Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 6m6 minutes ago
Division in the UK is not now, nor has it ever been, at Berwick. We don’t need another #indyref we need a UK-wide constitutional convention.
Just quietly give out copies of the Wee Black Book. Let the naysayers make their own minds up. No arguments. No animosity. Pop one through the letterbox of an older no-voting pensioner.
You might need to order some more, Rev.
So until this crew accept just what a catastrophic disgrace they were with 3 full terns in red tory office, well its probably too late for them now in Scotland and England.
The terrible legacies of Crash Gordon,
Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 2h2 hours ago
Today we mourn the loss of a structure of peace & prosperity. Tomorrow we must find strength to renew the fight against those who broke it.
Liz g wrote: “Yes….but ..when it comes to Trolls on here How nice do we have to be ?”
Simply do as the rules state Liz, if you smell a troll don’t feed it!
_____
cearc wrote: “Maybe Tartanpigsy could organise a Saltire with the EU stars in one quarter. It would save on flagpoles!”
Can i offer a slight alteration? I think the stars would be better placed encircling the centre of our flag.
_____
Found this on the Rev’s twitterfeed – would make a good poster,
especially with the words ‘SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE’ across the top
http://archive.is/fmorB
The only reason JK’s changed her tune is that she’s pissed at how much has been wiped off her share portfolio.
… and that one million quid sweetener just got pissed down the can.
btw – have we heard from Lady Mone? Will she make a statement of support for Dave, or just recommend a supporting undergarment.
How’s my reaching out going? It was dry-reaching you meant wasn’t it Stu?
call me dave @ 12:17 kindly linked to a statement from Buffalo Gal earlier this morning. Looks like she’s backtracking already. Are we surprised..?
But Kez (if Labour meltdown isn’t too much of a distraction) and Willie, can we still hope to welcome you into the fold?
Only thing Nicola did wrong for her statement / press conference was in not wearing her Iceland top.
Scotland free or a desert!
Never a truer phrase!
No longer can labour hide behind a socialist cloak in Scotland, going forward they will have to identify themselves as british nationalists regards Scotland’s future!
Freedom!
1. In 2014, for many, YES was a no brainer and still is a no brainer.
2. For many others YES was a compromise position and better for our future and the status quo.
3. In 2014, for many, NO was a no brainer and still is a no brainer.
4. For many others NO was a compromise position and better for our future than supporting independence.
If we want YES2 then stop shouting at those in 4 above because, all due respect, they are the group than can be brought on board and deliver our independence.
@vestas
Good post. I got a sense of ‘ no nonsense’ from Nicola too, even after a long night!
That reference to Sadiq Khan was interesting meant for speculation.
The Brexiteers are in defiant mood on FB, decrying anyone mentioning sterling.
Liam Fox has just assured R4 that there is no desire for another Indyref in Scotland and anyway Westminster would have to agree.
Hahahaha!
hænan.
Leaked transcript of the coversation held between First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon, and Sadiq Khan Lord Mayor of London following Brexit result:
“The Lord tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he’s pretty sure you’re f_____d….”
I’m told Angela Merkel is not long off the phone with the FM offering full support to Scotland
And seemingly ahe’s just one of a whole bunch
This is going better than I expected even in the face of the usual lack of Westminster democracy
At this rate we’ll be free by Tuesday
Stoker,
If they are all against blue then it is an EU flag as well, that’s why I reckon in a quarter.
Its been fun but now we need to start talking to these Scottish Tories about what consensus we can agree for a future country. What did they think they would lose that only English rule could guarantee? What do you really want that we can reasonably expect to agree to support? Even if we don’t particularly like but can stomach.
I’ve always been willing to make sacrifices, to suffer hard times and risk not personally gaining anything from independence. At my age I’m quite sure that’s the case. I want this now for the younger people in my family and frightened beaten looking teenagers I pass in the street. To hell with me.
What will it take? What do you want?
Show you care…
Drop the following into the search function on Amazon…
Scotland SCO Sticker Within Euro EU Stars Flag Car Oval
…and get some in!
Stoker,
Anyway. I just emailed his business to tell him we want something.
I expect he’ll be along sometime to comment.
Duncan Hothersall. Never met the guy and only read some of his stuff on websites and Twitter.
Surely even Duncan can now see along with the rest of the Scottish Labour members, their lone MP, their former MP’s, their MEP’s and MSP’s that the only real option for a real chance of Governing in Scottish Independence.
This would be a full rebuild from the bottom up and could take years but in doing so they will help to wipe out the Tories in Scotland.
Now is the time for Scottish Labour to unite and stand for Scottish Independence. If not they will be consigned to oblivion as the previous Indyref should remind them.
In case anyone has forgotten we’ve got the Council Elections to fight before anything else. I wouldn’t expect a date for Indyref2 to be announced until the SNP have control of the majority of councils in Scotland.
In 2014, 55% of Scots wanted to stay in the UK.
In 2016, 63% of Scots wanted to stay in the EU.
It cannot now be possible to be in both.
Time for an opinion poll, perhaps, on “Which Union do you prefer?”. There should, of course, be a third option of “neither”.
Interesting if this were done on a single transferable vote basis – whichever option comes last is dropped, and second preferences counted.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit popcorn.
cearc wrote: “If they are all against blue then it is an EU flag as well, that’s why I reckon in a quarter.”
Aye, right enough, good point! Section furthest from flagpole?
Its interesting that most of the press in major EU countries now have favourable articles regarding indyref2. The exception is Spain but that’s hardly surprising given the election there this weekend.
From an EU legal viewpoint the Remain vote in Scotland backed up with an indyref2 Yes vote would make it pretty much impossible NOT to immediately accept Scotland as a new member.
That would need to happen before Article 50 deadlines expired however*, so practically I’d expect legislation this autumn for indyref2 in Autumn 2017. Can’t really do it earlier due to local elections & summer polls aren’t a great idea.
*once the Article 50 deadlines expire then Scots cease to be EU citizens & hence it all becomes more uncertain. Tick tock boys & girls, tick tock….
My,my,my. I went to bed last night at about 11.00. We were being told that it must be remain as the markets were on the up. Sky was tweeting Farage was conceding that remain had just edged it. Oh well, I thought I suppose it will be remain. Got up this morning, and all hell seems to have let loose.
I think England have made a very very big mistake, but that’s their problem. I don’t think anyone thought it through What will happen to Nissan in Sunderland. They sited their factory there because of easy entry to the EU markets. Lots of jobs on the line there now.
Interest rates will probably have to go up and mortgages might suddenly become unaffordable. Time will tell. Boris as PM doesn’t bear thinking about. Listening to the leave winners this morning, it struck me that they have absolutely no idea of what to do now.
Step forward Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister. Wow. Nae messin. Telt straight as it was going to be. Well done lass. Makes you feel proud to have a politician of that stature on our side. So it’s Indy ref2. Shoulders to the wheel again lads and lassies we need to be ready. Onwards. The funny thing was this morning, Alistair Campbell of a’ folk saying what the First Minister said was correct and made a lot of sense. He said that he would prefer to live in her vision of Scotland than what England is now going to be. Saints preserve us.
Thank you Rev Stu = )
Beautifully said x
Wrote this immediately after Indyref result, feels relevant today too.
This Is Britain | todayinscotland
https://todayinscotland.com/2014/09/28/this-is-britain/
See when they say at the next Scottish Indy referendum, ‘Don’t vote for Independence, it is a step into the unknown’, will somebody just kick them in the nuts.
No one should resort to abusing those who voted no in 2014 we should all stick to what we do and that is being positive and inclusive and persuading people of our case.
I hope I am wrong and not being alarmist in any way, but I fear the vile leave campaign in England may have stoked with a great deal of anger, resentment and racial hatred.
How will people will react if they find their company decides to relocate as a result of the leave vote and they end up losing their job who will they blame for that happening?
Nice thought, but it would it not be better to introduce a resettlement grant scheme both sides of the border as there will be many folk in Little England who will be very keen for a move up north. An exchange for our loyal unionist community could prove a win-win scenario all round. Ibrox would have to be taken brick by brick to somewhere suitable – Windsor or Canterbury – and everyone could live happily ever after.
Marie Clark,
Nice plot at Linwood for Nissan.
Methinks that the price of derelict industrial land in Scotland will be on the rise.
hænan.
We’ve been noticed. This is top of the Brexit page in Der Spiegel 🙂
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-schottland-will-erneutes-referendum-ueber-unabhaengigkeit-a-1099601.html
We’ve gone from any number of people being totally dismissive of Scotland ever holding another Referendum to it having been discussed CONSTANTLY all morning… still being discussed such as by Andrew Neil talking to some female politician who was saying ”Scotland will be gone, Scotland will be gone.”
Nicola is saying ”It’s now on the table” and Stuart is right we have to hold out our hand in friendship or the olive branch if you (we) have ever felt aggrieved by individuals who previously voted no.
I mentioned earlier (posted on the wrong thread) that this Brexit result is one that most of us have prayed for: I’ve prayed for so much that when the result came in this morning I cried my eyes out along with a few others.
We now need to convert around 550,000 people to win a 60% Indyref2. If one third of all prior Yes voters could convince just one person each we’re home and dry. Remember too that Unions, the 60% of EU immigrants and some of the 360,000 rUK relocators who voted no previously may now be having a change of heart. The policies / practices of a Johnston or Gove run Tory Government will no doubt drive thousands of others into the fold and of course I would imagine that individuals (and companies) from rUK will head north to get out of the hellhole.
Time is of the essence because it would seem that Brussels is sending out a clear message that they want this ‘divorce’ dealt with ASAP: the timescale is not going to be controlled by Westminster at all. That gives us two years to turn this situation around.
I also heard earlier that some German Minister (didn’t pick up the name) has just stated that an Independent Scotland will be welcomed into the EU. SO C’MON FOLKS WE CAN DO IT.
Oh Happy, Happy, Happy Day everyone xx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q68maEDRUU0
Inverclyder wrote: “In case anyone has forgotten we’ve got the Council Elections to fight before anything else. I wouldn’t expect a date for Indyref2 to be announced until the SNP have control of the majority of councils in Scotland.”
Yes, a good point very well made, forgot all about that in the euphoria of the moment. Still, i think this result could help our Council ambitions and those results would provide a very good benchmark as to where we would be in the fight for independence.
Flip side of that coin – if we can’t produce massive Council changes then Indyref2 would be a total waste of time, effort and money. We need to take the Council’s and everyone else with us!
We need to persuade no voters with sugar not vinegar.?
? a typo.
@Vestas 1:17
Article 50 deadline might be a moot point. Jean Claude Junkers has said he expects the UK to leave as soon as possible, however painful that process will be. There will be no renegotiation.
I forget what paper I saw it in, perhaps an earlier edit now gone, but if the UK doesn’t trigger the clause, the EU can recognise the referendum itself as the trigger and start the countdown itself.
Tick tock indeed…
My one regret? Why was there none of this “reach out” diplomacy and urgency in 2014? Was that our failing or have we perhaps grown up a little since then?
One_Scot said:
They won’t need to. The jeers will be heard over the whole country. And the loudest will be from the former “no” voters!
no eu flag
a yes2 flag
many indy supporters voted no, we cant afford to alienate them
this will be a scottish indy2 referendum, so that we can decide our future,
this should be our focus, not the eu
thats not to say we cant mention it, just that it shouldnt be at the centre of indyref2
oh and btw, the 45 logo needs to be dropped as well
So I take it that will put the worn out ‘Once in a generation’ line to bed once and for all.
Can you imagine someone trying to pull that one, you’d piss yourself laughing.
One_Scot says:
“See when they say at the next Scottish Indy referendum … ”
They have burnt so much of their own ‘ammunition’, it does make you wonder what they can do next time.
They won’t even be able to use Project Fear 3 because everyone will be able to see all the previous two were bollocks, or came to pass within the Union.
Looks like brexit might actually increase refugees!
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/brexit-threatens-to-undo-uks-calais-border-deal/
Why should the French still help pay for the English border and have the embarrassment of the camps on their territory?
hænan.
many of the eu immigrants in scotland took a back seat in indyref1 and in the end many voted no because of the uncertainty of a yes vote vis a vis the EU
this mornings brexit is a direct attack on their position in Scotland, no question about it.
cameron, trying to allay their fears this morning said,
“I would also reassure European citizens living here there will be no immediate changes in your circumstances”
um…. that isnt really that reassuring, is it?
so I say to eu immigrants living in Scotland…. if you want to stay, you need to start fighting for it
indyref2
VOTEYES
The funny thing was this morning, Alistair Campbell of a’ folk saying what the First Minister said was correct and made a lot of sense. He said that he would prefer to live in her vision of Scotland than what England is now going to be. Saints preserve us.
So would most of the urban, educated, and affluent parts of England Not understanding that the affluence wasn’t shared equitably was the major mistake of this referendum, but you’ll be repeating the same mistakes of the last one if you don’t recognize that “Better Together” wasn’t just a catchy phrase for many of us down south. Huge swathes of us really do want you to do well too.
The moral right to call another referendum is yours. Alienating those who only agree now because the alternative is now worse would be to miss those who only disagreed with you on the means to achieve prosperity, not those who resent you any chance of having it.
And the new post-Cameron government is potentially going to be based upon that resentment. Expect Boris Johnson et all to run for Tory leadership, then see if he has enough support in the Tory party to avoid a 3/4 of Parliament vote. If he does, he can ignore the call for a General Election, because the Fixed Terms Act won’t require him to call one. Morally again, they should call for one anyway, to give the British people a say in the type of Brexit negotiations they want. But Brexit was never really about what is good for the British people anyway, so don’t be surprised when they don’t take that into account.
And they won’t be taking Scottish Independence into fair account either. You have allies in this coming fight then, if you care to look for them. Even ones as slimey and war-criminally as Alastair Campbell. And ever more I expect as the horrors of the new UK come into focus. Don’t squander them this time by hating on people like JK Rowling. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, because we’re all going to need to fight to the death to protect every last piece of goodness in the post-Brexit world.
So, in IndyRef#1, if we had voted YES, there was talk of London keeping Orkney & Shetland. When we vote YES in IndyRef#2, do we get to keep London? I’m sure they won’t mind.
galamcennalath says:
One_Scot says:
They won’t even be able to use Project Fear 3 because everyone will be able to see all the previous two were bollocks, or came to pass within the Union.
except the threats of economic damage and indyref2 seem to be born out by this mornings events?
brexit bingo!
financial markets
Ben Thompson ?@BBCBenThompson 10m10 minutes ago
Sources at Morgan Stanley tell BBC it’s already begun process of moving 2,000 London based investment banking staff to Dublin or Frankfurt
@ Breeks
The Article 50 deadline (ie 2 years from the letter triggering Article 50) is the most important date bar none in terms of Scotland having continuing membership of the EU.
The reason is – as was discussed in indyref1 – that there isn’t any easy legal way to remove EU citizenship unless the member/new state chooses to leave the EU. That was the uncertainty of indyref1.
However if Scotland delivers an indyref2 result of Yes (regardless of authority from Westminster) prior to the A50 deadlines then the EU would find it exceptionally difficult to remove EU citizenship from Scots.
With (if required – it likely will be IMHO) a UDI following a Yes vote then an independent Scotland would get immediate recognition & membership of the EU.
Now I have to say that its my personal opinion that an independent Scotland would do better in EFTA/EEA rather than the EU.
However that way isn’t going to lead to independence – there has to be some stability to convert don’t knows and continuing membership of the EU would provide that.
tl;dr if you lose EU citizenship its hard to get back; keep it & its virtually impossible to have it removed…
There must now be a lot of people out there with huge dilemmas to resolve – do YES voters who voted OUT want independence more and will still vote YES and how will NO voters who wanted REMAIN vote in indyref2? That last group in Edinburgh alone could be enough to tip the balance if they can be converted to YES.
There’s going to be a lot of campaigning to be done in the near future. We need to gently point out to NO voters that they were fooled before on many things but especially on Europe. We also need a cast-iron assurance from the EU that we will not be kicked out with the rUK.
Its interesting watching likes of Glenn Campbell girding up Gavin Esler’s loins for Project Fear 2 this lunchtime. Both very modestly not mentioning the major roll BBC Vote NO Again Scotland and stuff like
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26215579
SNP drawing up the paperwork for indy2 but in Holyrood there is no overall majority so support required from at least some of the other ‘Scottish’ parties.
What say the others?
All pro EU and may support Sturgeon approaching the EU mandarins but are they for the next logical step to wave on Scotland to have a second independence referendum?
Jings, crivvens, help ma boab, but, Ah’m confused.
On one hand, we are told: “Never interrupt your opponent when he is making a mistake”.
On the other, we are told: “Strike while the iron is hot”.
Right now, the Tories, in our view, made a mistake, when they allowed their internal differences to be “sorted-out” via this EU Referendum. Well, that didn’t work, so now they will continue their internal fighting while they elect a new leader and PM. If we go for Indyref2 now, the external threat which we present to their idea of one Uk, just might make them forget their own differences, to keep us in.
But, if we do not take advantage of the Tories, and perhaps Labour, having their main attention elsewhere – might our optimum moment of opportunity for Independence pass us bye?
However, sooner or later, we will be free – that is now a certainty, we are now too-far apart from England for the union to continue.
I heard that when Angela Merkel learned of the result she shouted out…
“ACHTUNG-DONER UND BLITZEN-HANDE HOCH-FOR YOU TOMMY THE WAR IS OVER”!! (best German vocabulary learned from years of reading DC Thompson Commando Comics)
Seriously though she´s got to be ffff$*@ing fizzing. This is not part of her master plan for the future of the EU.
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned (which I know from personal experience) expect Engerland to be out the door sooner rather than later.
Proud Cybernat,
Nice thought!
Though actually I could see a lot of Londoners moving up to a free Edinburgh. Much more pleasant environment for young families…
WHY has this tory stooge not quit? Dishonourable to the last, and cant spell either.
Ruth Davidson ?@RuthDavidsonMSP 6h6 hours ago
Right for the Prime Minister to offer stability while the country plots its course. Honorable to the last.
Jings i hope we have enough houses for all those English trying to flee tyranny,you are all welcome of course just dont expect us to give you a vote in the next indyref,sorry but because the EU will be involved you might not be allowed a vote i think we might need to look into that a bit deeper just in case.
Still it will stop the shooting party second home Scotland region britnats from getting a vote as well if its right hehe 🙂
If you knew nothing about the UK and you looked at the voting summary map in the Independent this morning you would be asking why there is suddenly a complete change in the vote about 1/3rd of the way down. Who could possibly deny that Scotland is a different country altogether.
Scot Greens circulating a petition to Holyrood, keep Scotland in the EU, so I presume they will support indyref2.
No sign of the Dug and her position? Fluffy sounded polite in assuring that Scotland would be represented in the negotiations team.
I posted yesterday, that we deserved this outcome, for all the lies and shit.
We have to make this work.
Whether folk were Yes or No voters is now utterly irrelevant – let’s face it, Scots never do things the easy way anyway.
Scotland June 2016 is a completely different place to Scotland September 2014.
We are all EU voters now.
O/T
One of my favourite videos which highlights what we’re fighting for over and above our children, our future, country and freedom. Keep your hands off our land, I say.
‘Wings Over Scotland’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHu2zrHQyUE
While Scotland will be getting the red carpet from EU states, England will be getting the bums rush.
Petition down south now over 100k, not to take UK out of EU. Poor buggers.
Yup, Morgan Stanley starting moves of staff.
If we have an other referendum, we need big changes.
Make clear we will be taking back some control of our own.
There needs to be no doubt about it – we are keeping the pound, and no currency zone means we will be keeping a Scottish pound pegged to sterling – but with NO debt.
The nuclear submarine base will at the very least be relocated to Shetland. Far away from our biggest city. We can open up the West coast for fisheries and oil/gas exploration.
We also need a partial public stake in our oil and gas resource.
There is enough resource left to supply homes and business in Scotland with cheap gas and electricity for years to come.
Give our firms a competitive advantage.
Davidson said UDI for the Scottish Tories IF Johnson became PM.
http://archive.is/x9KBh
I won’t be holding my breath.
For the UDI.
DerekM @ 14:10 said:
Of course we should give them the vote. Why on earth do you think that they would want to come here for, if not for indy?!
Morgan Stanley moving 2000 of its London based staff to either Dublin or Frankfurt…they are not waiting for the article 50 to take affect, their contingency plans are underway. This may very well be the start of the domino effect…
Started out with a queasy mixed up feeling about this Leave caper but now feeling pretty good about it overall.
Some ukip clown on RT this am saying, when asked about Scotland, that “England doesn’t need Scotland. We’ve been subsidising them for generations and the Scots know it. They won’t vote to leave uk, but if they want to they should.” Can’t remember the exact words but that was the jist of it.
Then later His Arseholeness Ken Livingstone says that the entire case for Scots indy is predicated on the price of oil so therefore it’ll never happen. Can’t tell whether he’s a fool who knows nothing about the realities of the Scottish and English economies or whether he’s just another lying red tory imperialist. Personally inclined to the latter view.
Absolutely bang on Rev about being inclusive towards soft No voters. We all make mistakes, me more than I care to remember, and nothing will be served by alienating them. However as far as the “Scottish” media representatives and hard core unionists are concerned I still claim the right to openly insult and denigrate them.
O/T.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/scottishninjas/890971267669641/?notif_t=group_activity¬if_id=1466765413454092
6pm tonight in Freedom Square.
Can you hear yoon culture praying like mad that not Scots oil doesn’t go back to even average prices. This tory berk in particular.
Tory Yoons like this dude will still be raging Vote NO 2, the fiscal black holes will get you, you morons.
(((Kevin Hague))) ?@kevverage 3h3 hours ago
From: the rest of the UK
To: Scotland
Subject: Referendums
Apologies etc.
*ends*
Onwards,
I always thought Scot£ pegged to Eng£ until Eng£ drops to parity with the euro. Then pegged to euro.
Looks like we might be able to skip the first stage soon.
hænan.
Onwards 14:20 said:
Even with your “no debt” qualification, I have to disagree. We could keep it, there’s nothing to stop us, but it just dawned on me right now that with an England outside the EU and an independent Scotland remaining inside, it isn’t tenable for us to retain the pound sterling. It’s tanking already and is likely to continue to sink for quite some time. I think we need to have our own currency right from the get-go. After some early jitters, it will likely do far better. We have the natural resources to sustain it.
Many No voters will today be beginning a journey. Our job is to be there to help them on that journey, not to say “told you so.”
BINGO!
#indyreftributeact
https://twitter.com/LibDems/status/746322288753131520
Hold the front pages!
Hold the ‘love a no-voter’ campaign!
If this general election possibility is accurate –
http://archive.is/rppIu
Hi Onwards, why should we in Shetland have this thrust upon us? I’d prefer alongside Westminster.
Auld Rock
Robert J. Sutherland
No Robert they might not be allowed a vote if the EU membership is involved in indyref2 ,we might not have a choice on that one hence i put this after what you quoted.
,sorry but because the EU will be involved you might not be allowed a vote i think we might need to look into that a bit deeper just in case.
All i am saying is there is a potential problem with them getting a vote,i dont know all the mechanics as nobody knows we are in uncharted waters.
Very bizarre silence from this ultra yoon toryboy. Its weird if only because he was tweeting like a Rangers fan after the Scottish cup final, all kinds of demands n stuff from Prof T.
Nothing on Brexit
https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins
Wait though
Abiesalba 8h ago
93
Dear Brits!
Since your wonderful politicians failed to prepare any plans, here are user instructions for your independent wonderfully sovereign country (written by an evil sinister scaremongering German bank):
–
The day after Brexit: what would happen next?
(Berenberg Bank, 14 March 2016)
My understanding is that IF Scotland can acheive independence within the two year period of Article 50, then the EU would have to see us as the ‘continuing state’ and it would be business as usual for Scotland within the EU.
We would remain EU citizens and it would be status quo between us and the EU.
Effectively, England would be seen to have simply left both unions!
We wouldn’t need to have the € and we would have the Shengen opt-out, just as we have now. Our only problem (as before) would be currency. Would we still want to be tied to the £?
Haven’t read all the comments. WoS is busy today, you’d think something big had happened. 🙂
Anyways, perhaps the SG should negotiate for continuing state status in the EU and let England and Wales do the secession stuff. Of course there would still have to be IndyRef2 but it would be against the background of Yes for EU stability, No for a leap into the unknown with rUK and their Nat Fest.
If Northern Ireland has any sense they will consider reunification. They have their very hardcore BritNats, but if a majority want it, that’s what should happen. If not, they go with rUK.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
24 June, 2016 at 2:29 pm
“Onwards 14:20 said:
There needs to be no doubt about it – we are keeping the pound
Even with your “no debt” qualification, I have to disagree. We could keep it, there’s nothing to stop us, but it just dawned on me right now that with an England outside the EU and an independent Scotland remaining inside, it isn’t tenable for us to retain the pound sterling. It’s tanking already and is likely to continue to sink for quite some time. I think we need to have our own currency right from the get-go. After some early jitters, it will likely do far better. We have the natural resources to sustain it.”
————-
The reality is England as our neighbour is still our biggest trading partner, and giving up the pound is far too scary for many voters.
At the very least we need a Scottish pound pegged to sterling at first.
We could maybe do well with a “best of both worlds” argument.
Keeping the pound AND our membership of Europe.
I have a feeling that the EU will make clear that Scotland will be welcomed, and doesn’t have to adopt the EURO.
here’s not too small a consideration – hopefully
continuing on with – in the great wheel of the seasons, the hawks shall feed on the doves then the doves shall feed on the hawks theme –
the scottish football team can only be on the up surely just in time to coincide with indy2, just as the national team’s success coincided with the max SNP support in 76?
Or, is that just rubbish? 🙂
“ACHTUNG-DONER UND BLITZEN-HANDE HOCH-FOR YOU TOMMY THE WAR IS OVER”!!
lol, stealing this
I think its very unlikely that Scotland would get “continuing state status” as there’s a lot of historical baggage in the form of rebates/opt-outs which the UK has.
I think we could probably get instant membership with no obligation to adopt the Euro if we pressed for that opt-out to be retained.
However what then?
Tied/pegged to Sterling doesn’t strike me as being a particularly great idea for the next few years as it’ll be a rollercoaster ride to say the least.
I suspect if we want independence from the UK rapidly while retaining/acquiring EU membership then we’ll have to hold our noses & adopt the Euro.
Its probably no bad thing for an economy our size as it’ll be a lot more stable than Sterling, one way or another. Interest rates aren’t that divergent right now so a boom/bust cycle is unlikely in the Eurozone.
We went through all this stuff about the Euro during Indyref 1. There is no compulsion to join as you have to meet set criteria and if you don’t like Sweden you don’t have to join the Euro.
IMHO Scots pound pegged to RUK”s for a few years and then see what’s mostvadvantageous to us.
One thing for sure no sharing of Pound and no share of UK debt.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro
The YES movement is a “broad church”, all are welcome, that are interested in a fairer Scotland.
I hope Scotland’s pro-indy MEPs are already strongly putting Scotland’s position to the heidbummers of the EU. Cameron and/or Johnson does not speak for Scotland.
Onwards,
I thought the same previously about the pound, it was the option that gave the minimum glitch on transit to indy. But that didn’t play so well in the end, did it? OK, you have shifted to the “tracking the pound” option with no debt, and that is certainly an improvement. I accept your point about England’s trading position, but I’m still staying with the thought that the pound is going to be a very shoogly peg on which to start afresh.
Maybe with the shock of yesterday’s result people will be more prepared to take a bigger step forward, and “take control” (to coin a phrase!) of our own currency. After all, by the Brexiters own admission, England will be willing to trade with the whole world!
Does anyone know if queenie was purring doon the phone when Dave called her this morning? Just askin’.
I met one of these guys in the sauna this morning. It was very depressing.
He was delighted with the result complained about too many foreigners in Lidl and that he couldn’t get a doctor’s appointment because of all the foreigners. He complained that the EU had curtaied his freedom of speech with all the rules about racism. He was angry that Cameron had resigned and even angrier with Nicola Sturgeon.
I predict a lot of ugly scenes now that these racist Britnat types think they have the backing of the majority.
Vestas @ 14:57 said:
I’m with the others on this one. It’s a matter both of standing and sympathy. If Scotland were to achieve independence before the break, it will be the natural successor state and not a new applicant. Of course, it is to be expected that this will require adjustments proportional to our size relative to the whole UK, but given the result I think the EU will be happy to treat us very sympathetically in that regard.
Ooops! Looks like they may need a rethink on this one, eh!
I suggest replacing London with Edinburgh
http://archive.is/7VdHC
Have a good and safe weekend one and all.
🙂
funny no one else mentioning how appaling this hatchet job on Jeremy corbyn is.
Im no friend of his or his party at all but the fact that massive majority of members voted for him, then he toes the party line for Remain despite his own voting history and now lo and behold, those centre-right Labour MPS who hated real democracy when their leader was picked have decided he has to go so they can get back to feasting with big business carving up the spoils one way or another.
Labour..they really are a cower of shunts.
The EU referendum must surely have proved to the NO voters once and for all that Scotland has no voice in the UK.
I am guessing that the French are looking forward to the headache of Calais going away down the channel tunnel. If I was them I would all ready be taking down the barriers and saying Bon voyage.
@ Onwards Aye go to it thats the hand of frienship You extend to the Shetland Islanders ,yous are getting a unwanted Nuclear base . In case you need reminding Shetland Isle are Scottish an no jist a label oan a jumper.
At the very least, adopting the EURO is a non-starter.
As much as Scotland as a whole wants to stay in Europe, enough voters will not want to give up the pound.
I don’t even know if retaining automatic membership of Europe should be part of a second indyref.
I wanted to remain, but a Brexit changes everything.
The shock will reside in a few months, and Holyrood will get more powers over fishing and agriculture – and it will be a harder sell to convince SNP voters who voted to leave Europe to vote to rejoin and give up these powers.
Perhaps the best way is to put final decisions on Europe and currency to a subsequent Scottish election, and simply campaign for independence as a way of taking back control for the people of Scotland to decide their own future.
but I’m still staying with the thought that the pound is going to be a very shoogly peg on which to start afresh.
The strength of the £ was in large part based upon the fact businesses like Toyota et all brought manufacturing here as a back door into the European Union. That is now not the case, so expect the £ to take an absolute beating for a long time.
On top of which, the incoming Government of the UK is going to be even less sympathetic to currency union with an Independent Scotland, just because it’s likely to be made up of a load of xenophobic prats. I said at the time of IndyRef ignoring English threats was a mistake, because the threats were genuine and wider electorate could see that… A BoJo Government is likely to be even more serious about wrecking everything out of spite now.
Right or wrong, this time around the SNP needs to push the “We have to adapt to a less than ideal world” idea instead of just assuming they can call for the most logical, equitable, dream-like future. Currency union has to be assumed to be removable from the table, because who the hell knows what dumb ideas will come up from Westminster next? Much as you may choke on the irony… a bit of “Project Fearty” is going to make a lot more sense when looking at the UK we’re actually going to be stuck with.
I don’t have a clue at this point yet what currency option would be best for Scotland. The SNP doesn’t need to know either; just say “Independence first, get off this sinking ship as fast as we can. We’ll thrash out with Europe what’s best next, then put it to the Scots Electorate when we know what options are available”. But backing the £ blindly would be electoral suicide. Hell, I don’t feel confident about using it either, and I’m stuck with the bloody thing.
Ruby
Try telling your guy that, following Brexit, Lidl are to pull out of Britain. They are, after all, a German company. (No idea whether it is true or not – but might give him pause for thought!)
So the racist SNP want another referendum? So me voting the last 2 times for Tory knowing full well if Cameron got in again we would have this, as far back as 2010 we were told, so bury your heads in the sand and deny it.
So me voting remain in the Scottish referendum was that also a waste of time? The people have spoken and that is a democratic society. But the SNP and their supporters want a dictatorship, your way or not at all. That’s not how this works, the prime minister makes the call on a 2nd referendum not bigoted racist SNP politicians .
And if we have a 2nd referendum will it be people who were born in the UK only living in Scotland voting? As this must be part of any deal.
My wife being English and we have a young son, I have lived in Sfotland most of my 46 years of excistance and if we joined Europe I would be forced to leave Scotland by racist bigots who do not understand democracy.
This will not be allowed on as I said you are bigots and it’s a dictatorship, but do you really want this country in civil war if we join the Euro? Why should I respect that result when you did not except this first 2.
SNP = Racists ( Well you are very anti Englishand very anti UK) so what would you call it? politics?
Now off to celebrate
Ok Stu, through gritted teeth I agree, but on one condition that (Lady) Michelle Mone is not allowed back into Scotland and Harry Snoters writter shuts her geggie. Its going to be hard , just looking at these pictures of the knuckle draggers fills me with anger.
Petrol prices may rise by next week caused by fall in the £.
“Drivers could face higher petrol and diesel prices as a result of the vote to leave the EU, retailers suggest.
Brian Madderson, chairman of the Petrol Retailers Association, said that a rise of 2p-3p a litre was on the cards.
He said the plunge in the value of the pound against the dollar would have an immediate impact, as wholesale fuel prices are quoted in dollars.
The rises were likely to be implemented on forecourts next week, he said.
BBC Archived.
http://archive.is/D9QTg
Fast forward to IndyRef#2 Ballot Paper 2018:
Please place and X in one box only:
Scotland should be an independent country within the European Union?
YES [X]
NO [ ]
(Mind and check for the bar codes, peeps)
YES TEU!!
Mathematically, every converted NO voter is worth two votes
That’s really worth the effort
All those folk counting on a Euro Lottery win… (sigh).
My rough and totally unscientific, uneducated and unqualified guess is that – right now – support for indy in Scotland has to be at around 52/53%, and it’s possible that it could be higher.
Though of course indyref2 can’t be rushed. We need to wait till the dust has settled a bit, then step back and take stock. When the time is right…..
Amazing looking at all those photos. Time and pressure.
The future is ours to decide. #IndyRef2
Please support us http://tvl.ink/crowdfunder
Ruby,
‘… too many foreigners in Lidl’
Hilarious!
hænan.
Vote to leave and Dave’s gone. That’s a significant and material change so I’m with Nicola!
A clarification on something I said earlier : “The English don’t give a fuck about Scotland”…..
I’m not attributing malice to all English people, although that tag is justified for a LARGE minority (30-40%).
I am simply stating the truth from my perspective of nearly 30 years down here – most English people couldn’t care less what happens to Scotland.
We don’t even impinge on their consciousness other than when the Daily Mail/other ultra right wing press stir the pot of racial hatred. That’s it.
For all the fuckwit loyalists in the photos above – the English despise you as neanderthal religious loonies and they always will. They will continue to use you as their stooges though 😀
For the most part the English are insular and have little interest in foreign affairs other than those countries the USA is currently bomobing/invading/sacking.
Time to leave the UK. WAY past time to leave….
Tried to order heating oil before it went up, as they only visit Arran on a Thursday would not take order until next Wednesday as he buys his oil daily. I said fine I will go to local supplier and get it tomorrow, he then took the order. He says everything going mental on the markets just now .
Just completed a Scotpulse poll , if there was Indyref 2 today how would you vote and has the euro ref changed your mind towards Scots Indy.
Makes you proud to be British, doesn’t it?
* sniff *
Can’t believe the BBC is turning Brexit into a post mortem on the decline of Labour and the bleak future for Jeremy Corbyn.
I suppose it serves me right for switching it on. At least thats easily fixed.
“Obey Your Queen”?
Braindead motherfuckers.
Vambomarbeleye says:
24 June, 2016 at 3:26 pm
I am guessing that the French are looking forward to the headache of Calais going away down the channel tunnel. If I was them I would all ready be taking down the barriers and saying Bon voyage.
Ruby replies
I’m surprised that the people of Calais have put up with having the UK Border in France.
I wonder what will happen with Gibraltar.
I’ve just cashed in my small pension pot. I have a feeling i did it just in time.
Okay – so let’s say BoJo gets elected as new Tory leader/Prime Minister and calls a General Election to get a “Brexit Govt. Mandate”. What if the Tories then lose the election? What then for Brexit if Corbyn (or his repacement0, who does not support it, becomes PM? Is the UK Govt (whichever party wins a possible Autumn Gen Election) obligated to negotiate Brexit? Or is this Cameron sacrificing himself in order to play a ‘get out of jail free card’?
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/
The biggest single reason “for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.
——————-
I think the next referendum question should focus 100% on the self-government aspect, and not contain the word ‘independent’ which can be misinterpreted as ‘separate’
Should Scotland govern itself as a sovereign nation state?
Yes or No.
The importance of having a good campaign slogan related to that is paramount. How many times did we hear the phrase “Take back control” ?
And let’s not have any fuss about using the Saltire as a campaign logo. National flags represent nation states.
O/T.
Noo’s the day
an noo’s the hour
see the forces of
westminster cower
they’re day,s are numbered
they hivnae ower lang
we’re oan the sidelines
hudin oor fire
and we wont tak lang
tae dump the corrupt gang.
cearc says:
24 June, 2016 at 3:44 pm
Ruby,
‘… too many foreigners in Lidl’
Hilarious!
hænan.
Ruby replies
I did explain to him that Lidl was a German company but he didn’t seem to think that was significant.
I though the comment about not getting a doctors appointment was interesting and I wondered if he got the info from the Daily Mail or from Kezia.
I’m still somewhat shocked, even though I said to colleagues last night that Leave was possible. I still hopes it would be remain. Let’s also remember that only 37.5% of the electorate voted to Leave. How come Labour didn’t introduce a minimum 40% rule before the vote. They did nothing before it.
I’m glad we have someone as politically smart as Nicola Sturgeon at the helm. This will require clever maneuvering. And if anyone can get us through this, she can. Crazy times 🙁
Email from Nicola Sturgeon:
We must act now
Scotland now faces the prospect of being taken out of the EU against our will. I believe that is democratically unacceptable.
On Thursday Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.
Today I set out the steps I will now take to try and secure our European status.
You can watch my statement in full below, and get a summary of my speech here.
https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/vb.77249349077/10154369452494078/?type=2&theater
I have made clear that that a second independence referendum is now on the table.
As you know, we had planned to undertake new work this summer to build a majority in support of an independent Scotland.
I ask you to act now. Join me and pledge your support here:
http://www.snp.org/independence
Matt cartoon front of Telegraph, 2 guys outside EU commission office, ‘FINALLY, I thought they’d never leave.’
I think that pretty well sums europe’s attitude.
“This is not Britain’s independence from Europe, but Europe’s independence from the US,” Boris Titov, a business omsbudman who advises the Kremlin, wrote on Facebook.
‘Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister, has predicted chaos “beyond comprehension” after the result. He noted that the Zimbabwean dollar was gaining on sterling. ‘
‘Claiming that he was not personally celebrating the referendum result, Mr Margallo explained the Spanish government’s view that “the instant the [EU] treaties stop applying, Gibraltar becomes a third country”.
All quotes from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/eu-referendum-what-the-world-is-saying—britains-historic-decis/
hænan.
Just watched Willie Rennie being given oodles of airtime on bbc24. Interviewed by Gavin Estler outside Holyrood, Rennie poured on the Westminster propaganda against Nicola and IndyRef2 warning all and sundry about the dangers of ‘rushing in’ to another referendum on Scottish independence.
So the propaganda war by Westminster via the BBC continues with the message ‘don’t rush’ in a new attempt to brainwash the Scottish electorate into voting against Independence.
So we have been warned – there will be no let up in the Imperial campaign to undermine Scotland’s sovereignty and the right of Scots to self-determination.
Amusing to watch the Blairites (Margaret Oppenheimer et al) going for a parliamentary coup on Corbyn.
So some self-serving venal scum in the Labour parliamentary party think their views outweigh a couple of hundred thousand party members?
Self-destruct in full flow – just like SLAB.
IMHO there is going to be a GE before we can run indyref2.
Best to get all of the Yes movement into high gear again peeps because I think its wall to wall indy politics for the next 18-24 months.
Game on. Again 🙂
“Brexit: Is this like the 2008 financial crisis?”
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/24/investing/brexit-pound-dollar-stocks-fear/
Hope it calms down next week, but today it looks like footie with wasps nests.
Like most contributors I’m very much up for round two Indy but all said and done we must learn from past mistakes and ensure there are no loose ends this time that can be exploited by the ‘NO’ camp. Also if Brexiters think they will get a good deal in negotiations with Europe they are deluding themselves. Certainly Germany and France will not wish to see an independent UK flourishing which will prove a catalyst for others to follow.
A GE just so they can elect a Brexit government. I fucking don’t think so. They might be able to faff about with both Labour and Conservatives refusing to govern or repeal the fixed term act. Other than that they need to man up and govern.
Of course if they do go for it the SNP could always stand on a UDI manifesto and not fuck about with the attempt to reduce their numbers.
James Kay says:
24 June, 2016 at 3:33 pm
Ruby
Try telling your guy that, following Brexit, Lidl are to pull out of Britain. They are, after all, a German company. (No idea whether it is true or not – but might give him pause for thought!)
Ruby replies
Nothing would have given him pause for thought! I was initially having a bit of fun at his expense but thought better of it. Fortunately he didn’t notice as I think he could have turned nasty! He was full of confidence being that his side won!
Day one of the post EU era and already we hear on the BBC from the lips of John Major the first statement in the process of canonising David Cameron.
No 10’s PR dept clearly hard at work to forge a ‘new understanding’ for consumption by the electorate.
If Gibraltar becomes a third country after being taken out off the EU against its will then Scotland does as well!
ROBBO says:
“Certainly Germany and France will not wish to see an independent UK flourishing which will prove a catalyst for others to follow.”
Alternatively, perhaps they might be amenable to an independent flourishing Scotland within the EU! 🙂
Looks link England is basically fcked. We don’t have to go down with her.
Speaking to Unionist colleagues to-day to win Indy ref 2 the SNP / Yes side must answer concerns over low oil prices and border controls at Berwick / Coldstream.
Italian friends working in England praising Scottish voters and all EU nationals concerned about UK right wing politics.
I just wish someone would pull up the quality Radio Shortbread presenters!? when they come out with ” you said it was once in a lifetime, once in a generation” bollocks,
they should also say the Scots were told “Vote No to remain in the EU”, if the Empire Broadcasting Corp were unbiased I suppose they would.
“Aye right”
Not to stir up the shit, but as from today I no longer accept English notes in my change, they have done it to us for years. Drop a stone in the ocean and it could make a tidal wave.
Payback.
@ jcd says at 2:23 pm …. ”Some ukip clown on RT this am saying, when asked about Scotland, that “England doesn’t need Scotland. We’ve been subsidising them for generations and the Scots know it. They won’t vote to leave uk, but if they want to they should.”
Yeah corrupt Westminster politicians, the BBC and press have a lot to answer for JCD. Millions of English people have been totally brainwashed by them and that includes Princess Anne’s son who was mumping about this, Scottish scroungers, on Twitter. You’d have thought that his granny would have put him right that is that our oil revenue, for one, has been keeping them in a life of luxury.
Anyway we’ll see what happens when they don’t receive any oil revenue at all, have to return our 7000 sqmls of stolen seas, 7 stolen oil fields and they’re lumbered with Trident. Well in saying ‘lumbered’ there’s seemingly no where south of the border that it (they) can be located. The Admiralty visited Gibraltar early last year to investigate siting it there and were given short shrift by them and the Spanish …. too close to their border ….too dangerous to contemplate having it dumped there. Good enough for the Scots right enough! At the end of the day it looks as though their subs will have to be ‘returned to sender’.
Between one thing and another England is looking increasing ‘too wee, poor and stupid.”
Watching the way the sacred pound is bouncing around today, the threat of not being allowed to use the pound in an independent Scotland rings pretty hollow. Keep your shabby pound, little England, we don’t want it.
There will definitely be an influx – possibly quite significant – of English people into Scotland as a result of all this.
Given that they are motivated enough to leave the good ship Little-england to wallow in its own nastiness, they will be the kind of people who would probably be more likely to vote for the SNP than the Tories, but will they vote to set us free in Indyref2?
I’m inclined to think they would, especially if we follow the line taken in the Rev’s article, and that Scotland should welcome them as part of the inclusive, progressive nation we are proving ourselves to be.
@Titler
By far the most robust currency option for any country to have, is to have its own currency.
Just compare the fortunes of Greece with Iceland. Iceland with its tiny population had free reign to spend in its own currency to save its economy after 2008. It avoided attacks by currency speculators by imposing capital controls though it’s central bank. It simply would not have been able to do that as part of the euro.
Greece has had to cow tow to the ECB and the neoliberals in the troika and has been unable to save its economy from falling into depression.
There are a host of options on the table for the Bank Of England in response to brexit. The one they shouldn’t take is to raise interest rates as that will topple the UK’s Ponzi economy. The fact however is they still have options and it should be clear now (post 2008) that a currency issuing nation cannot default in claims in its own currency.
It’s a simple case of one nation one currency. Scotland needs to develop its infrastructure as an independent nation and to do that it’s going to need scot£
Nicola needs to sack mainstream economists who say any different. It’s the ideas of mainstream economics which have landed us in the economic mess we are in.
Is that right cearc? I had no idea that the apparent Russian antipathy towards Europe related to the UK’s links with the USA. So much to learn from a casual off hand remark.
What we have seen with Brexit is the UK primarily England has become a lot less tolerant.
Unfortunately I have our share of racists here in my part of Fife who are very happy about Brexit and are against immigrants and want to see Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP out of office SNP.
I wonder if these scum would stick by their beliefs and refuse to accept medical advice or treatment from any foreign GP, Surgeon Nurse etc.
In September 2014 I voted Yes for Scots Indy. I never fully accepted that result as by the Saturday the depression had turned to anger. It is an anger that still burns deep in me.
Yesterday I voted to Leave the EU. Every part of Scotland voted to Remain in the EU and for me I can respect that result. Scotland has voted decisively to Remain. The EU as an issue is now dead and I want to move on to what has been the most important issue in my life and that is achieving an Independent Scotland and one that is within the EU.
I think it is now incumbent upon the SG to begin direct negotiations with the EU to secure the best deal it can for Scotland. I think it is also now incumbent upon the EU to extend an open hand to Scotland and show us in Scotland that they respect the democratic vote of the Scots Electorate. To hell with the fact that Holyrood might not have the legal power to do that but there is simply no choice in my view.
I am still a little shell shocked because I thought the Corporate Fascists would rig the vote yesterday.
I wonder what those folk in Gibraltar are thinking today as the English have pretty much stuck two fingers up at them. Oh and Wales is going to get well effed.
The UK is finished. It is time to stick the boot into it and without mercy.
What about energy in England ? EDF A foreign. European company will surely not invest in Hinkley C now.Oops that a couple of billions down the drain.
Sorry my post @24 June, 2016 at 4:36 pm
It should have said; we have our share of racists her in my part of Fife
Now on BBC
Alex Massie and Iain McWhirter being interviewed. I laughed when McWhirter was accused here of being a sleeper. Not laughing now!
My god, we cannot get out of this ‘UK’ soon enough. It is effectively finished.
A new indy referendum is not really about independence anymore, it is about much, much more, it is about the future survival of Scotland.
I think a few years from now, BoJo the English clown will be literally run out of London by the mob. Such utter folly that Westminster is now pursuing.
manandboy @16:14 said:
So Wee Willie Winkie flunks the challenge? No big surprise there then. All that last-minute leafletting from the FibDems about their great love for the EU was just another awkward belief that can be cravenly “recalibrated” away.
And his boss Farron thinks that a newly-energised nationalist England is in any mood to consider a more-devolved UK? What planet is he on? What parallel universe is he in?
Ian McWhirter on the BBC just now, pouring cold water on the prospects for a successful IndyRef and citing a defiant Unionist taxi driver as a model for Scotland to follow.
Beside him, Alan Massie was much more positive.
Breeks,
I think it is more the other way round – that the apparent European antipathy towards Russia related to the UK’s links with the USA.
Uk has always been the US’s man-in-Europe and pushed US policy in europe.
Just not having Westminister governements in the EU will probably change a lot of things. General attitude seems to be ‘Out,? fine just FO quickly and stop whinging.’
manandboy said:
Well, Massie père said recently that he would support indy if the EUref chose Brexit, so it would be welcome if someone like him set a good example by doing the decent thing and sticking by what they had promised.
Henry Mcleish, what say ye…?
http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2016/06/scotland-needs-a-fresh-independence-referendum-fast/
Yep, you’re dead right Eric.
We are all Jock Tamsons bairns.
Second chances all round, and last.
I seriously cannot believe there is any reasonably minded person sitting in Scotland right now thinking, you know what, being part of this union with England is a really good idea.
davidtorrance.
better together claim that a yes would see scotland out of the eu looking threadbear
me
yup, i knew it, the yessers knew it….so did you @davidtorrance. the difference … you just kept quiet about this https://twitter.com/davidtorrance/status/746193012187758592 …
davidtorrance.
but i said this in my book in 2013!
me
@davidtorrance great stuff dave, except when 100% of media said, if we voted yes we wld get booted out of EU in the weeks b4 ref u said zero
davidtorrance
But better together couldnt guarentee scotlands position in the eu
me
@davidtorrance bt could have, the eu offered to clarify its position re an indy scotland. cameron refused that offer 4 exactly that reason
im now blocked and his tweets deleted
btw
eric joyce has declared for yes2
Got to be good odds on Farage joining Tories.
UKIP have achieved their objective and are now redundant.
You can almost hear Better Together / Project Fear 3 now. Stay with the UK and you’ll get super-duper-devo-exo-max-with-bells-on. We’ll even print it on the cover o’ the Daily Redcoat. Why shackle Scotland to the anti-democratic EU? Stay wi’ the Union you know. We love you Scotland. Besides – you cannae use oor pound an’ we’ll bomb your airports. There’s a blck hole and the oil price has crashed. Blah, blah, blah – you can begin to hear it already.
How we will laugh.
Good piece,
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/germany-britannia-cool-political-culture-westminster-city-london-eu-reform
‘The EU can carry out real reforms without English snipers now.’
Great article by former BBC presenter Derek Bateman on EU
referendum consequencies.
http://derekbateman.scot/
Yup here comes super duper Devo Max and Hyper Home Rule Plus Plus with loads of sugar!
I wonder who is going to be the snake oil salesman for that one though as the Tories will be tearing themselves apart and Brit Labour Party is now in open civil war.
I can feel the hate already in the Brit Nat Press and Media. So much for the calls for a nicer politics, that didn’t last long did it!
I hear that some of the City institutions are considering a move to Edinburgh in light of the vote yesterday. With support from the EU, we certainly have a remarkable opportunity that could not have been foreseen eighteen month’s ago. Deep breath and best foot forward..
Proud cybernat 4.03
Good point!
If there is a general election, and the Tories lost, would Labour – or some coalition – be obligated to deal with brexit.
Question is –
would Labour (with or without Corbyn) risk going into such an election with a promise not to?
ie make it a brexit rerun!
Now that I would pay good money to see.
Rush on in unionist areas of NI for, yip, Irish passports as they are entitled to dual citizenship.
This had to happen though, didn’t it, for No voters to perhaps change their minds?
The temptation is to rage but I agree, calm quiet persuasion is what is needed now. Also to not engage online in Twitter fights or give any ammunition to the Record/Mail/Scotsman etc. We are better than that and we showed it last night. I do feel the mood has changed in Scotland.
We must get our next White Paper spot on though. Get this GERS nonsense sorted and our Central Bank up and running. As the new tax powers come on board to would make sense to start then. Does a bank even have to be physical these days?
I am not that fussed about the Pound versus the Euro anymore. Either would do in the short term.
The hard core Unionists are not worth expending energy on, but anyone who genuinely wants to come on board is welcome.
This point wasn’t raised by Remain was it?
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber
My daughter and son and their pals are in age ranges 14- 15. They are horrified.
They will vote Indy ref 2 YES in 2 years.
No hurry. Let the brexit’s make the mistakes as they kick each other to see who is more right wing.
I have a pair of married friends who live in England whom I was discussing IndyRef1 with in early 2014. They where against the idea of Scottish independence in a reasonable way (“Of course Scotland can and should decide such things for itself, but we think Scotland will/would do better remaining part of the UK” was roughly their opinion IIRC), and we agreed to disagree on the subject.
This morning they’re considering moving to Scotland, and also voting for independence when/if IndyRef2 happens! Early days of course, what with a 2 new jobs to find, a house to sell, another to buy oop-north and so on but overall I’d call that a positive development! 🙂
As long as Ant and Dec take Morrisons back to Newcastle I’ll be happy I really hate that shop full of Union flags, and their made in England Britain produce
They don’t even sell Scottish fish, they sell English trout IN Scotland and Norwegian Salmon what’s all that about
Scotland a country chokka with the best local produce and they sell milk from English dairies, it’s insanity
I have to end up getting in my German car to go to Aldis
to buy my pasta and instant microwave fly lice
But…it’s full of Bridies and Pies and Sausages and Bacon and Eggs
all from Bonnie Scotland
Nom Nom Nom Nom
Here is my wishes for the next couple of years… An independent Scotland in Europe, with the Euro currency (absolutely fine by me… it seems fine for Eire) and with the geographical share of our natural resources (including the stolen bit) and per-capita share of the existing UK debt.
They really are quite simple and normal requests.
The state propaganda radio today is in full 1984 double speak mode, if BBC Scotland can’t behave then it should be taken of the air,. Some liar of a Tory MSP lied on every word he said and was not once challenged on his lies, unbelievable. Malcolm liar was his name.
Has Ruth Davidson benn charged by police Scotland yet?
Tig your next.
I remind Wingers or that image of the Bullington Club with Cameron, Osborne and Johnston.
Cameron is many thing but he is exceptionally estute politician who over the campaign has said stupid things and taken many hits. Boris taken into the Cabinet as a non MP.
I think he took the hits for the team.
Andrew McLean @ 5.37
You should know that as a result of the Carmicheal election court case “political” lies are defendable in our courts. Lie with impunity as long as it’s a “political” lie.
can we expect better?
BBC Scotland declare war on ref 2, with their there will be no ref 2, Project Fear 2. Democracy and corrupt state broadcasters dont mix.
14:16
The BBC reports that Morgan Stanley has begun the process of moving 2,000 investment banking staff from the UK to Dublin or Frankfurt following Britain’s vote to leave the European Union.
Morgan Stanley has begun moving 2,000 investment banking staff from London to Dublin or Frankfurt, BBC learns
Rats leaving very quickly and Lord Flipper Darling’s on the board of Morgan Stanley too, shock.
Had a look at comments on this article. Overwhelmingly positive towards Scotland and negative toward the Little Englanders. More than that I’m struck by the civility of the Germans comments compared to the vileness of UK BTL. I NEVER look at comments on articles in UK papers – always full of utter twats.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-schottland-will-erneutes-referendum-ueber-unabhaengigkeit-a-1099601.html
I listened to Radio Shortbread today, in their shock they were briefly almost acceptable but about to switch off again. They just got even worse. I think we’re now in for another onslaught of too wee, poor, once in a lifetime, no mandate blah blah etc.
PLEASE NOTE THAT CLLR. LOCKHART IS CURRENTLY INDISPOSED AND WILL NOT BE CARRYING OUT HIS SURGERIES AS SHOWN. THEY WILL, IN THE MAIN BE COVERED BY CLLR GUICHAN.
slab councillor says he is now yes for indyref2
it has started
Read around twitter britnats and cringers. Here we go again.
((( Neil Lovatt ))) ?@neiledwardlovat 9h9 hours ago
Salmond was on GMS this morning ruling out joining the Euro and suggesting Sterlingisation!
You cant join the EU without your own currency!
Far right britnats seem have left already. Sad:-(
Effie Deans ?@Effiedeans Jun 15
Why I will vote for the UK to leave the EU http://reaction.life/?p=29 Best reasons I’ve seen so far. Moderate. Clear thinking from Iain Martin
Why is David Cameron talking like the Captain of the QE2… I wouldn’t trust him to steer a shopping trolley.
Proto fascist had a great result and its going to be great he promises
Iain Martin ?@iainmartin1 6m6 minutes ago
Don’t fall for Nicola Sturgeon stoking indy ref II panic. (Me for straight jacket.)
its actually a link to even further right cluster fcuk and stuff like
Mega cringe with
But there are good reasons to be wary of the Nationalist hype. Although Sturgeon is supreme, party management in the SNP is not quite as straightforward as it looks. The activists want a referendum, of course. Yet there is no guarantee that the SNP will hold it, let alone win it.
Think of the SNP offer in an independence referendum:
1) Put up a proper border with England where 90% of Scotland’s exports go.
2) Join the euro.
3) The oil price
Ok Alistair lies are OK in ukok but incitement to commit murder is not, Ruth Davidson statement that she herself was going to slay nationalists is an criminal offence. Days after a lunatic unionist murderd a MP on the street her statement was completely outrageous. And cannot stand.
Couple of tory zoomers play doubles. I guess we do need to see
Haitch7 Retweeted
(((Kevin Hague))) ?@kevverage 10h10 hours ago
as for indyref2 – I guess we need to see if the rest of the UK will keep paying us £9bn a year to stay and how Scots fancy joining the Euro
Your magnanimity is spot on, Rev. Hope all yessers follow your advice.
Met an old pal in Glasgow for lunch. The town was strangely subdued. The restaurant staff were very pro-EU and cheesed off. Showed my EU solidarity by drinking Tempranillo and Negroamaro wine, the supreme sacrifice.
I was shocked this morning but am convinced we are closer than ever to independence: the FM’s speech was first-class. Incidentally, Michelle Thomson was great on France 24 too. I was visiting my neighbour and she gave a sparkling performance: “We want to be part of the (EU) project.”
I don’t watch it but it seems the BBC is even more biased/unhinged.
It can only get worse.
Vestas says:
24 June, 2016 at 3:47 pm
A clarification on something I said earlier : “The English don’t give a fuck about Scotland”…..
I’m not attributing malice to all English people, although that tag is justified for a LARGE minority (30-40%).
I am simply stating the truth from my perspective of nearly 30 years down here – most English people couldn’t care less what happens to Scotland.
We don’t even impinge on their consciousness other than when the Daily Mail/other ultra right wing press stir the pot of racial hatred. That’s it.
For all the fuckwit loyalists in the photos above – the English despise you as neanderthal religious loonies and they always will. They will continue to use you as their stooges though ?
For the most part the English are insular and have little interest in foreign affairs other than those countries the USA is currently bomobing/invading/sacking.
Time to leave the UK. WAY past time to leave….
———————–
Those who gave their identity as ‘English, not British’ voted 79% to leave.
https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/746273016359882752
This was always about English nationalism, and No voters need to realize that these people see the UK, Britain and England as one and the same. Scotland isn’t a valued partner in the union.
Scottish opinion didn’t matter in the slightest, nor did any consequences for Northern Ireland. It’s all about a small-minded, arrogant English nationalism and sticking 2 fingers up to the froggy French and the sunbed-hogging Germans.
Nigel Farage going on about independence day makes me laugh. It is Isolation Day. What freedoms have we gained? People will lose the freedom to travel, live and work freely throughout the whole of Europe.
Dr NO’s still not grasped the concept of democracy. Corbyn will be gone by next week too and rightly so. JC was absolutely awful this referendum. SO lets keep him SLabour
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 4h4 hours ago
The SNP’s line of Scotland “being dragged out of the EU against our wishes” is quite abstract – it says nothing about what’s best for Scots.
Heard lots of silly stuff today from a prize nawbag at work his piece de resistance was that there shouldn’t be another referendum as we lost and the losers shouldn’t get to choose what happens. Reach out ? Aye ma hands roon the cunts throat.
Dr NO does provide comic relief. Has this one ultra yoon any idea how mad it is criticising SNP’s EU campaigning at near 70% Remain everywhere and almost all Labour lands voted Brexit? No
In reply to Derek Dunnington
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 4h4 hours ago
>@friendsofderek You think the SNP campaigned as hard as they could for a #Remain vote? I don’t.
Farage tells nice tv lady that the £350 million a week for new NHS hospitals was in fact complete bollueax. A few English britnats voting out parroted that one around me for weeks in run up so it just shows…
Haitch7 Retweeted
Good Morning Britain ?@GMB 11h11 hours ago
WATCH: @Nigel_Farage tells @susannareid100 it was a ‘mistake’ for Leave to claim there’d be £350M a week for NHS
The pound plummeting.
£120 billion wiped off shares.
Trade tariffs will need to come in.
Exports will fall and with it GDP.
Taxes will need to rise significantly.
Services cut to the bone or ended
Investors putting money elsewhere rather than risk it in UK
Companies will redirect investment and halt expansion.
The next 5 years or so will crush the euphoria felt in England just now about
stopping immigrants. They cannot see over the horizon.
We must seize the moment.
We have to escape the union or we too will be caught in the maelstrom to come.
Ian Smart’s back on his meds, thank god
Ian Smart Retweeted
Michael Crick ?@MichaelLCrick 9h9 hours ago
Mandelson tells me it’s the “worst day in post-war Britain”
Worst day was the “the things can only get better” day, when enough suckas like me voted Lab 97. All of this is down to the red tory freak show that berserk in power.
The£ 350 million that Farage talked about was borrowed and contributed to our defecit. The UK was paying EU membership with credit.
It is just like Kezias APD. It is fictitious existing only in the mind of the creator.
Well said Bob Mack… Time is running out in the game; and now is the time to secure the match with the killer second goal.
Woke this morning feel energised we are going to be out of that cesspit soon. Now I hear we are going to try and get back in really? not me I am one of the 38%. I will vote for Indy but if it comes to going back into EU with a heavy heart I say NO. I will need major understanding of why we need to go back to the shit house, I also believe that the EU will implode within a few years so lets hang on, dont join a failing state.
This is one highly litigious yoon, even without Rowling’s island of lawyers, so we’d better do exactly as he tells us
http://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/scotland_in_union_s_statement_24th_june
We used to joke about how jolly Bojo types are more than capable of rounding us up and marching us down to local football stadium but dictatorial do as I say sweaties, is their theme.
Where’s Ruth?
Wonder if she’s thinking those 4 days locked in a hotel room to practice shouty stuff at BoJo, was time well spent.
What a change in media reporting! Just reporting the facts of the FMs speech, nobody screaming how undemocratic Scotland is, just a quietness
This is what we need, move quickly about our business, while shit goes down.
A lot of ill informed bravado and nastiness on some English FB pages from the Leave voters, and genuine horror from Remain.voters, knowing the Right wing are just getting geared up.
Some cringing Scots crying Nickla going into knee jerk, unwarranted indyref2 mode, so uber unionists will never be convinced.
Great discussion here, yes, technically it’s a good thing for us and indyref2 can’t come quick enough. Think we’ve learned a lot from last time and we will be super tight with our arguments and behaviour this time.
However, still feel hugely sorry for my project EU english friends. There desperation on FB has been palpable, it must seem like a complete dead end to them. They don’t have the escape route than us and the northern Irish do.
While we celebrate our good fortune, don’t forget the misery this will inflict on many of our southern friends.
Revisiting a previous post The SNP need to ask the question of the opposition parties in Scotland
https://caltonjock.com/2015/04/05/if-england-wales-vote-to-leave-the-eu-and-scotland-votes-to-stay-in-it-will-the-scottish-labour-party-conform-with-london-labour-instructions-or-support-the-wishes-of-the-scottish-electorate/
Torquil will go down in Scotland’s history as one of the greatest liars in our 2014 Parcel of Rogues but why on earth does he believe Bojo’s surprise act at Cammers quitting.
http://whitehall1212.blogspot.co.uk/?_sm_au_=iVVV6TS6Qk1f50Sr
Excellent article Stu and a very, very important message.
There will be a lot of potential new yes voters who have been thrown completely by this. Business owners will (are) looking aghast at this result and the consequences we face.
I feel disbelief at the voters south of the border who have bought into Boris and co’s message hook line and sinker. And desperately sad for their countrymen in England and Wales who voted Remain and now have no escape from this economic self harm.
Our First Minister displayed her quality and determination today and I was proud to call her my party leader and the leader of our country. We begin the next campaign now and I would earnestly hope that support for a second referendum will come not simply from the SNP and Scottish Greens but from others in Holyrood.
I cannot believe that Kezia Dugdale believes the country is best served by following Farage into darkness when we have an alternative. Now is the time for those who have the best interests of the people of Scotland at heart to get on board and bring the country together behind this great project.
Events today are beginning to look like an episode of “The Thick of It”! Dave the Spiv must wish he had stayed in PR!.
Tee hee!!!!
It isn’t so much a case of us having to persuade NO voters, as twitter is full of previous NO’ers saying they have now shifted to YES!
Not saying that ‘Twitter’ is proof that Scotland will definitely vote YES, but I’ve already saw ex Labour man Eric Joyce and some other Councillor saying they have shifted to Yes.
Kez will keep her NO stance and this will be the final nail in Labours coffin, unless they decide to unseat her.
Happy Days 🙂
Dr Jim@5.35.
Aldi also sell Scottish Butteries.
Num, num, num .
Spoke to friend from the EU who works in the Highlands today, she was a bit concerned about yesterday, but a few kind words calmed her down.
By the way, she has 3 jobs and works very hard, and pays all her taxes.(unlike the Jeremy Kyle Englander)
The wee Englander Brit Nats have shown themselves to be what we already knew.
Indy Ref2, Aye
Gary45% Gunderson
@Glamaig says:1:31 pm
When you auto translate that Spiegel article it describes Nicola as the Scottish Prime Minister and by the end of the first paragraph, the president of Scotland. I like it 🙂
@Valerie says:at 2:13 pm
Fluffy sounded polite in assuring that Scotland would be represented in the negotiations team.
Aye but represented by whom? Fluffy probably. 🙂
heedtracker said at t 5:58 pm
Think of the SNP offer in an independence referendum:
1) Put up a proper border with England where 90% of Scotland’s exports go.
2) Join the euro.
3) The oil price
1) What’s wrong the joining the Common Travel Area alongside the rUK and the Republic of Ireland? Would require an opt-out from Schengen like the UK and RoI, but could be conditional like the RoI rather than absolute like the UK. Would obviously need to be negotiated but not flat out impossible.
2) A newly independent Scotland wouldn’t qualify for adopting the Euro. It’s 2 years minimum of ERM-2 membership with your currency remaining within it’s bounds wrt the Euro plus the other Maastricht Convergence Criteria. Even if a newly independent Scotland is required, as part of it’s accession to the EU, to adopt the Euro that wouldn’t/couldn’t happen for years … Quite possibly decades.
3) Low oil prices might be bad news for oil producing companies, and the government gets an direct sting as a result. OTOH it’s great news for *everyone else*, who for the most part spends/invests their “extra” income and the government gets a boost from that.
Did anyone hear that wankbangle Tom Harris on GMS this morning bigging up the leave vote in Scotland what a fud. And he has now categorically stated that there will be no indyref2 as the ‘UK’ will not allow it. Shades of #McTernanPredicts in that one…
Would it be a good time to organise an Indy2/Scotland/ EU rally in Independence square. All EU flags and the saltire (but obviously the Union Flag would not be flown).
Would be a great photo op.
That rabble of Britnat thugs in George Square on 19.09.14 can fuck right off, as far as I’m concerned. No hand of friendship to the Seig Heil-ing, young girl booting, Saltire burning scumbags – Scotland’s shame.
And anyway, that lot would rather Scotland was a post-holocaust leper colony than vote Yes to an independent Scotland.
They are beyond redemption, part of the 30% of Scots who will still vote No, no matter what. Naah, a complete waste of time trying to convert any of that mob.
The more civilised who voted No in IndyRef1 for whatever reason are the ones more likely to think things through and come to the conclusion that, you know, an independent Scotland is the way forward after all.
Those are the people to work with in the lead-up to IndyRef2, not that bunch of Union Jack-draped numbnuts who despoiled Scotland in George Square on that now infamous evening of 19.09.14.
Quite a big protest march going towards the parliament. They have banners saying Fuck UKIP, Campaign against Hate, IndyRef2 in a big heart etc
Britnats bring an end to their so-called united kingdom. Delicious.
Well I have to laugh at the Brit Nat Press and Media now that the Corporate Fascists are behaving like spoiled erratic children having a belter of a tantrum.
The Brit Peso fell because it was presently overvalued pure and simple. The value of a great many Stocks fell because they were also presently overvalued pure and simple. To pretend the slide is due to a particular vote is a gross lie.
The Corporate Fascists are behaving as they have always behaved and that is with malice and greed and there is a great opportunity for them to rake in even more obscene profits with other financial instruments. They have no ethical restraint. They certainly have no loyalty to anyone but themselves.
The Naw bags will be seeing that they have no sympathy, empathy or loyalty to UKOK! They have helped themselves to the contents of a great many Pension Funds but the Brit Nat Press and Media will never tell us the truth of that.
Anyone know how many people have joined the SNP/ signed the pledge today?
And also…
Does this mean that Iceland and Northern Ireland are now due automatic byes into the last eight of the Euros…? LOL!
is alan cochrant still with the torygraph? Last comment i can find was in march
@Croompenstein
Mr Harris has proven he is a fart in search of an arse to exit and yes I caught his routine earlier. In the face of the financial shit storm unfolding for the whole UK, the real livelihoods under threat and fact that every single ward in Scotland returned a remain vote, he still found time to gloat to the Scottish electorate.
Diplomacy and empathy fail.
Iain More @18.59
Well said that man.
@Almannysbunnet
I suspect Fluffy was trying to play nice to Nicola, and show everyone how nice the Tories can be. However, even if the invite was to Nicola directly, no way would she sit on a Brexit team!
Nicola has set her stall out in a very definite way, so I suspect she will just bypass WM. I think that was why she referred to making chat with Sadiq Khan. The City of London must be shitting themselves right now, so it’s in Khans interests to look ‘open’.
Re people’s questioning about the oil prices case and indyref2.
Oil is traded in $’s.
$ stronger than the £.
Therefore oil price rises in real terms
So, if there is a General election, does Scotland take part?
They keep talking about it, which seems stupid, when they just need to replace Cam, but I suppose those that voted Remain might want a GE.
How the Torys elect a new leader,
http://tinyurl.com/htkhmws
Driving home, I realised that I am no longer a European because another country told me I’m not allowed to be. Being told what to do by other countries and not having my voice or the majority of my countrymen’s voices taken into consideration.
Ruled and dictated to by governments and parliaments we didn’t vote for or have our best interests at heart. Free loaders who are unaccountable to the people but I pay handsomely for.
Now where have I heard that before?
The news over here had Cameron’s resignation speech first up… followed by “the high probability of Scotland becoming independent soon”… Excellent stuff!
Another stick to bash my English ‘expat’ colleagues aboot the the heid with the morra.
After having to put up with their sneering pish ‘banter’ since IndyRef1, today was a fucking great day! And the morra will be even better!
I’m going to continue serving up this form of revenge as cold as I can possibly make it until they either gang up on me to get me fired or IndyRef2 is called officially. We’ll just have to see which comes first!
Bravo, Stu. Come all ye!
Valerie, the Tory’s are self serving. They currently have a majority and are not going to risk their jobs for another GE.
It will be a back doors transition from Cameron to whoever… or Boris.
John Snow on channel 4 asks a relevant question “who is in charge just now”
Labour are duff and split the tories have resigned and in chaos does that mean the SNP are stearing the ship.
Tory lies about N Ireland no referendum for Ireland ,and Scots knew about EU ref before voting no lies from evil tory witch lying her face off Theresa Villian rule Britania do as your told colonies England knows best
And the survey says fuck off Theresa
Villiers on CH 4 NEWS TONIGHT repeating the same lie all day. That when Scotland voted No they did so with the knowledge that we would have an in/out referendum.
How come? We didn’t know the result of the Scottish Referendum, we didn’t know the tories or labours manifiesto- because they didn’t exist and even if they did we couldn’t know who would win a RUK election.
No doubt wee toady Davidson agree with Villiers. They act against Scotland and the Scots
test
“Wankbangle” Tom Harris says Croompenstein 😀
Hamish100 says:
24 June, 2016 at 7:37 pm
Villiers on CH 4 NEWS TONIGHT repeating the same lie all day. That when Scotland voted No they did so with the knowledge that we would have an in/out referendum.
Ruby replies
What Scotland was told was that voting NO guaranteed continued EU membership if the politicians who made this guarantee knew there would be an in/out EU Ref. then they were telling the electorate that they guaranteed a ‘Remain’ vote.
I didn’t hear a single politician tell us that voting NO may result in us losing our EU membership due to Brexit.
We were conned!
EU membership formed a huge part of Better Together’s argument! Barrosso was never off the telly and the BBC went around the whole of Europe looking for politicians to tell us voting NO would result in loss of EU membership.
I have just had two of the worst weeks of my life after loosing my beautiful boxer Alice.This morning shook me out of my bad dream and i’m back in the saddle in our journey to a free and independent nation.There are situations in life which are bigger than ourselves and this is one of them and we must take full advantage of it.
We have to forgive and forget and respect that others have sometimes different views from ourselves and try and help them see the light.They are absolutely crucial in acheiving our dream.I think another order of the “wee black book” is in order.
@Croompenstein,
Aye,I heard the “wankbangle”, and I couldn’t have thought of a better description for him.
Whatever their reasons for voting Leave, great respect to the voters of England for rocking the rotten to the core UK and EU establishments to their cores.
Unlike the wimps in Scotland in 2014, they were not intimidated by the lies of Project Fear.
Scotland will now get independence, thanks to the “plebs” of England.
Ken Livingstone was on RT earlier spouting pish about the Scottish economy. Ken states that Scotland is reliant upon oil and requires subsidy from the rest of the UK and therefore can’t be independent. Yet another who knows nothing about the world outside of Londonshire.
Mike Dailly saying he will campaign for Independence https://twitter.com/mikedailly/with_replies
So, today, with Cameron’s resignation, BoJo the English clown, was handed what can only be the most poisoned political chalice in history.
Even now, watching the way the Tories want to try and dictate terms to EU, is arrogance personified. They wanted to try and back peddle for a bit before triggering Article 50.
However, EU heads saying this is ‘unacceptable’. They make it clear there is no legal vacuum on their part, and want talks immediately.
They have to move fast to prevent contagion, and no doubt the 27 countries are fully behind that. Hollande being very quiet, despite he held an emergency meeting of his cabinet this morning.
The Tories have no EU pals, after decades of slagging off the Project, and will whine long and loud now, as they are dealt a swift kick to the arse, on their way out the door.
@Laukat What! The same Mike Dailly that put all the cybernats on a list. Well well. In the spirit of this article welcome aboard Mike.
I was working in my back garden when an elderly neighbor called me over. She asked if I had seen that terrible result from the referendum. I said I had, she then said had I seen Nicola on the tv, I said I had.
Then she unexpectedly said, ” she was just brilliant”.
This coming from an Indy ref NO!
Then she said, if there is another Scottish referendum, I am voting YES this time, I will never believe them again.
One person, but her bitter attitude towards the Tories,and being hauled out of Europe by English votes, was music to my ears.
If she has turned like this, there will be many many more like her. I feel Indy2 has to be done sooner than later to catch this wave of revulsion.
Been busy today and missed a lot of earlier posts. Wee bit surprised as thought remain would just make it.
Farage and his independence day. GTF NIGEL.
It’s Scotland’s Independence we care about you can go to Freuchie.
Well maybe not that’s too near me, how about Venezuala.
Its at times like these that I miss having Jim Murphy about…Am I alone in this?
I love england, love it. Lived there, have many friends there.
Tonight I genuinely feel sorry for them.
Time to break free.
@Thepnr – yip that Mike Dailly.
Also seen Eric Joyce say he will vote yes and if you have a look at Chris Deerin’s twitter feed it reads like he may also be someone who could be moved to yes
Scott Douglas says:
24 June, 2016 at 8:15 pm
Ken Livingstone was on RT earlier spouting pish about the Scottish economy. Ken states that Scotland is reliant upon oil and requires subsidy from the rest of the UK and therefore can’t be independent. Yet another who knows nothing about the world outside of Londonshire.
Ruby replies
If Scotland is reliant on subsidies from the RUK does that not suggest that the Union has failed Scotland?
I thought I would have a look at The Scotsman to see what is being said there! Oh dear that was a big mistake!
While I was there a spotted an article with the headline:
‘Sam Heughan: There should ‘absolutely’ be indyref2’
If you want to hear what the guys in the above photos have to say go to The Scotsman.
@Ruby
I just knew that ginger haired hunk was an Indy supporter!
Question Time on R4 right now – arseholes farting to each other.
Yes, neccessary article. There’s YES / Remain, there’s NO / Remain, there’s YES / Leave, we need them all.
There’s even NO / Leave who might just think “fuck it” as Frankie Boyle said, and vote YES next time.
Would have been on earlier, but power / data feed to hard disk melted, almost on fire, put desktop out of order. Think it’s the backup not the main hard drive, but taking no chances so testing computer including hopefully bootable linux CD, but first getting ready to back up data. Fortunately main data on pen drive as master, and hard disks as backup. The joys, and today of all days. Oh, and this laptop acting up.
Apart from that it’s been a great 21 hours or so, unless I genuinely want to stay in the EU which I realise I do (I did vote Remain).
I thoroughly condemn the actions in George Square on the 19th September , but does anyone know how many people were involved ? was it thousands or hundreds? how many injuries were there ?
If it was hundreds, how does it differ from football hooliganism, like the recent Scottish cup final.
I have never committed a crime or waived the Union jack in my life, I still voted NO, because I love Britain.
O/T Extract from the Guardian website: ‘A senior campaign source said: “Downing Street told us: ‘We won with a risk message in the Scottish referendum in 2014 and 2015, and we could do the same in 2016.’ They were sure the economic risk message would bring the voters back to the status quo. Those messages are fine if they are going to be echoed every day in the rightwing press, so creating an echo chamber that the broadcasters have to follow. But the press was never on our side.”
The press in Scotland was certainly ‘on their side’ and helped them create the ‘echo chamber’. I have nothing but contempt for those who done the dirty work for the press in Scotland. It’ll be interesting to see if they replicate their ‘helping hand’ strategy in any future referendum.
Lovely to see those photos of Gordon Brown’s chums in George Square. They seem nice.
@Laukat Chris Deerin FFS. Nah, where do we draw the line?
Us cybernats have standards to maintain
Papko
You are today’s jingoistic idiot
Good luck with yourself
Eijit
Papko
‘I was just a guard…following orders’
‘I love country’
Well, you are now the minority you bufoon and good ridance to you.
My reading is this is a critical time, and critical timing. We have Cameron hopefully staying on until October, giving a 3 month grace period before Article 50 invocation (it needs to be properly formulated). The EU seems to be split into two camps, the hardliners who want to be down and nasty to the EU like a German MEP on the news “go now”, and then like the Italian MEP, or Hollande and Merkel perhaps, “this is not the time for hasty action it’s a time for calm and reflection, and it’s a test of the EU”.
Meanwhile I think Cameron is the best chance to secure the right to get Indy ref 2 when we want the straightforward route, and perhaps this is what Sturgeon was a bit economical with the press conference about when she alluded to timing.
Valerie: Hunkilicious!
https://archive.is/skIMA
Scotland’s evolving independence movement should do justice to the legacy of Indyref 1 – an inclusive mass educational movement that celebrated consensus, conciliatory and conviction politics. Anyone who wants to be part of it (and those who remain unsure) should be welcomed in.
As Jurgen Habermas argues ‘under certain circumstances civil society can acquire influence in the public sphere, have an effect on the parliamentary complex…through its own public opinions, and the political system to switch over to the official circulation of power’.
Scotland powering ahead, nurturing deliberative democracy, confidant in itself and with its position in the world.
I love Europe X
Let the debate ensue..
Unlike the wimps in Scotland in 2014, they were not intimidated by the lies of Project Fear.
Because they weren’t Project Feared! BBC terrorised Scotland 2014, but they sure as shit gave everyone a square go for In Out Brexit. I don’t bother with BBC Scotland garbage at all but BBC England were spectacularly unbiased.
Anyway youre talking about an England that just stepped out of the world’s biggest and richest economies. They didn’t step IN to a giant, rich, half a billion populace economy but OUT.
And they followed a UKOK clusterfcuk that has no socio economic plan whatsoever now, nothing. One senior UKOK nutcase was bashing on about contacting Canada, OZ and NZ again.
So listening to likes of Ken Livingstone and his old school Project Fearing on Scotland, he’s the kind of politico we’re all trying to get away from, either side of the border.
I have been signing and stamping Irish passports today, mostly from unionists
Chortle
I think it’s reached that point of the evening (after a hell of a lot of reading btl comments on one or three pages on Wings today), where we can take a break for seven minutes and sing along with this brilliant video from last year’s ‘T In The Park’ to kick start the Indyref2 campaign.
Yi a’ ken the wurdz…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6xCXbP-Q9g
Existential question @ Ruby and Valerie: if Sam were a Tory, then what, eh?
Eh?
In your own time….
Two thoughts came into my head tonight as I was doing the washing-up (as one does):
Firstly, although I’m too young to remember it directly, this reminds me very much of Suez, which was the previous time that the British Empire loyalists thought they could call the shots. Just as then, at first they think that they are the masters of events, only to be deeply humbled for their hubris shortly afterwards. So it will be again this time, only this time it will be the final hurrah. The UK has just chosen a future of second-rate status.
Secondly, although my personal opinion before the result was that a narrow Remain vote was the best way forward for indy due to an English backlash, I’m now thinking that (as others have suggested) this result may in fact be better, precisely because it is unpleasant. It forces former hesitant “no” voters out of their comfort zone. They now have to confront the bitter fact that the “safety net” offered them by BT in the indyref, and which they preferred to uncritically accept, was an illusion, a complete fabrication, a con trick. Whatever Tories and their camp-followers in the MSM may now try to claim, no-one is fooled. It is crunch time for all former “no” voters. Many such Labourites, I believe, harboured the fear that Scotland on its own would be a more uncivilised and turbulent place, and now they can see all too clearly that it’s actually the UK that is the very incarnation of that inchoate irrational polity which they feared. A polity welcomed by all fellow-travellers of that mob who waved their butchers’ aprons in George Square and gave their Nazi salutes, the neo-fascist right of countries such as Holland and France.
Now is the Sorting Time. It will reveal those on the one hand who are the true believers in an inclusive civic Scotland that is necessarily independent and those on the other hand who cannot free themselves from obsequious pandering to alien powers who most certainly do not have our interests at heart.
Time to choose, good people!
If you haven’t done it already, begin by signing the pledge.
In the interest of reconciliation with those that voted against their country in our Referendum,
would it be constructive in the healing process to buy a packet of Tunnock`s teacakes,
or is it to soon.
David Anderson @ 8:58
That is my greatest fear David. It was nothing short of orchestrated sedition to subvert our democracy, and it worked. No prosecutions, no dismissals, no public enquiries, no formal complaints. Every instrument of that subversion remains in place and unchallenged and uber-funded ready to do the exact same thing all over again.
YES2 and the SNP must not adopt the same non-confrontational stance of 2014. The lies, the agenda manipulation, the smears, the fears, must be contested. People ARE led by what they see and hear on TV. David Coburn is all the proof we need of that; a UKIP slug representing Scotland in Europe SOLELY because the BBC promoted UKIP in Scotland.
At first I wondered WTF? But now I wonder whether Nicola Sturgeon has just played a masterstroke holding discussions with Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London. A city state in Europe just isn’t going to wash, but making EU membership an issue for London might just have unlocked access to reams of information and objective discussion which might otherwise be buried or choked by hystrionics. If London has a dog in the race, maybe we can expect something better than Tokyo Kaye phoning her Unionist think tank for her take on current affairs.
Life is about to real interesting for Scotland. We are much more media savy this time around, but I still worry that isn’t going to be enough. Granted, they can’t use the 2014 arguments which are now debunked and proven untrue, but never forget these lies were fiction in the first place and never once burdened by facts or rigourous investigation. It wouldn’t be difficult to change the narrative but keep the strategy precisely the same.
I fervently believe Indyref 2 will stand or fall according to who wins the media battle. That isn’t how it should be, it should be a judgement based on the issuez, but YES 2014 and Brexit are can tell us exactly what to expect if we fail to break through the propaganda.
Good choice Brian Doonthetoon. ?
I cant wait for the UKOK civil service awards this year
http://www.civilserviceworld.com/articles/news/hm-treasury-team-wins-special-civil-service-award
Pisani said: “In the Treasury, everyone hates you. We don’t get thanks for anything. This is one occasion where we’ve worked with the rest of Whitehall.
“We all had something in common, we’re trying to save the Union here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”
He added: “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the first time in my life, suddenly we’re part of a political campaign. We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications. I just felt a massive sense of being part of the operation. This being recognised [at the Civil Service Awards], makes me feel just incredibly proud.”
Cochrane said: “we’ve learned that it is possible for civil servants to work on things that are inherently political and quite difficult, and you’re very close to the line of what is appropriate, but it’s possible to find your way through and to make a difference.”
And Doyle added: “This award is not just for the Treasury, it’s for all the hard work that was done by all government departments on the Scotland agenda.
“The reality was in all my experience of the civil service, I have never seen the civil service pull together in the way they did behind supporting the UK government in maintaining the United Kingdom. It was a very special event for all of us.”
MacFarlane also gave credit to their Scottish Government counterparts, “in particular the government economic service there, who did their jobs for their ministers. I think over the currency debate in particular both governments put forward their economic analysis, which framed where their governments were coming from in the debate.”
They’re not anti democratic arseholes like the BBC, they genuine believe they did a great job for their country. Prime Minister BoJo might even attend this years UK civil service Oscars.
Hi Robert J. Sutherland.
You typed,
“It forces former hesitant “no” voters out of their comfort zone. They now have to confront the bitter fact that the “safety net” offered them by BT in the indyref, and which they preferred to uncritically accept, was an illusion, a complete fabrication, a con trick.”
That’s true. At work today, I blethered with three NO voters who felt betrayed by last night’s outcome. One is now definite YES – the other two are swithering towards YES, even although one of them, once upon a time, stood as an SNP councillor and is still a member of the SNP.
Go figure….
I’m gonna keep working on her.
So just to clarify
The EU will take a hard-line with UK, “get out now”, which does seem odd as we have been part of this project for 42 years and we voted closely to remain.
What happened to European brotherhood and community of nations?, anyway
So Indyref 2 is get back in the EU?, with exemptions regarding the Euro and Schengen, and the reason the EU will cut Scotland slack is our “renewable s, strategic importance, oil”
Whereas according to our FM,”Scotland gets more from EU than we pay in”
So the EU will lose its second biggest contributor, tighten the reins to stop the rest fleeing, yet welcome Scotland with her strict conditions, exemptions,deficit, and desire to take out the pot, when the pot is a deal emptier.
Also some 30% of “Yes” voters voted leave, are they going to vote to get back in ?
Yes presumably so Edinburgh can have as much influence in Berlin as Dublin does now.
Sounds straight forward to me.
Cadogan,
Glad to hear you’re enjoying yourself.
Do you think many unionists might go for unification,in the secrecy of the ballot box?
Well done Scot, I have just snorted a very nice Pinot Noir up my nose 🙂
BBC news channel talking to this commentator
https://www.politicos.co.uk/authors/jo-phillips
and there was a matter-of-fact unanimity about a general election before xmas!
Now setting aside the possibility of a Tory defeat – and what a fine xmas present that would be –
what would be the implication of such a quick election for the SNP?
eg
Would they have to put an indyref commitment into their manifesto?
Would anything less than retaining the seats they have provide ammo for those opposing indyref?
Brexit won without offering any policies on anything.
The Yes side in the next Scottish independence referendum should also not propose any policies on anything.
Policies can be proposed by the different parties after independence when the Scottish electorate can decide.
With labour deciding to have a leadership crisis yet again, despite the members likely to vote Corbyn again since they are not likely to enjoy being dictated to by the minority PLP, are labour trying to actually AVOID any chance of being in power ?
representing Scotland in Europe SOLELY because the BBC promoted UKIP in Scotland.
@ Breeks
38% of Scots voted to Leave, are they to have no representation ?
Why are the trolls even bothering right now?
Seriously – what’s the actual point?
Not really a second chance as such, for everyone it’s a journey. Some arrive earlier than others.
If Scotland is in the EU and England in glorious isolation I suspect that a tonne of branch offices will open in Scotland so that goods can be moved into the EU without a tariff. So expect a common trade area in the British isles which will result in a fudge for free trade to the EU all to Scotland’s benefit if they remain in.
Papko, you sound like a good chap so I will break it gently, Britain passed away in the early hours of this morning, take all the time you need, and when you want to talk, I will be here.
Okay, Scotland, time to stand up for yourself. They’ve dragged you into illegal wars against your will, and now they’re attempting to drag you out of the European Union against your will. Get your act together and cut out all this softly-softly approach to your future, otherwise you will sleep-walk into oblivion, to be remembered as the only country in history ever to vote against its own independence.
Independence doesn’t seem to have done Luxembourg any harm – population equivalent to Glasgow’s and one of the highest standards of living anywhere in the world.
Ian, the battle joined! That’s why the troll is out, it’s starting so form battalion, raise the standard, cry havoc and let lose the dogs of war!
It is astonishing the mess that they are in. No plans, no idea what to do. Nobody had even discussed the mechanisms or post-brexit policies.
Now even quite intelligent people seem to think that they can delay it or change their minds despite half of europe saying bye, bye, don’t hang around.
The UK credit rating is now negative.
Papko says:
24 June, 2016 at 9:49 pm
So just to clarify
The EU will take a hard-line with UK, “get out now”, which does seem odd as we have been part of this project for 42 years and we voted closely to remain.
What happened to European brotherhood and community of nations?, anyway”
You wanted out, now you gripe at the people you just told to fuck off Papko.
Only in UKOK rule britnatia world.
Wimmen (kinda sexist) ….wife’s first thought today, ‘we’re never going to win Eurovision now’!
Andrew McLean says:
24 June, 2016 at 10:05 pm
Ian, the battle joined! That’s why the troll is out, it’s starting so form battalion, raise the standard, cry havoc and let lose the dogs of war!
Its actually “let slip the dogs of war” Andrew. Much creepier.
Papko,
You are a pathetic little yoon troll with scarcely the intelligence of a midge, but just as irritating.
F*** off!
Nobel prize holder Peter Higgs says Brexit a disaster, looks forward to indyref2.
Privately JK Rowling can back any side she wants or say anything she wants.
But I would absolutely not want the likes of her to have any role in the official Yes campaign.
The Rev. Stuart Campbell himself was boycotted by the official Yes campaign last time.
It would be rank hypocrisy to welcome JK Rowling because of her money.
The same applies to all those who lied through their teeth last time.
The vast majority of those who voted No last time are extremely selfish people. They will only ever vote for their money or for their British Nationalism.
Only if they think it is in their self interest to vote Yes, they will vote Yes. Trying to persuade them is both completely useless and completely unnecessary.
The best use of resources will be to make sure all those who didn’t vote in places like Glasgow and Dundee are persuaded to vote Yes next time.
I don’t support any personal verbal attacks on No voters. But they don’t need any pampering either.
Part of me is glad that England voted for separation,
there was a growing hatred of immigrants/foreigners fed by Tory politicians and their compliant media,
if the nationalist separatists of England did not get their way,the hatred/pressure would have kept on building,
and we all know what happens when a state demonises a minority to deflect from the states problems,
so this exit vote hopefully takes the heat out of the hatred of immigrants in England.
Papko, really, just fuck off you idiot.
Simply astonished by the vote in England..guess the ruling elite really were so complacent they couldn’t be bothered forging the postal votes..or they are so fuking stupid that they wanted Out as much as Bozo and Farrago et al did.
Back to the REV’s point… yeah I’ll welcome every motherlovin’ Nawbag jersey swapper over to our side with open arms….but under no circumstances do I want or believe that the neantherdals pictured above will come over.
Personally I’d round them all up and send them on a slow boat to nowhere. Looking at those photos again makes you realise how much of an organised politically motivated ‘event’ it was. While Police Scotland are still rounding up a load of fat dancing football hooligan virgins from the cup final…hundreds of these individuals were allowed to create fear and loathing in the centre of our biggest city, setting off flares and beating up young girls and defiling our national flag, all the time giving Nazi salutes in sight of the Cenotaph….with no attempt to round them up and charge them with conspiracy to create terrorism.
If you doubt they are fascist and right wing scum…check photo 11, where son of Himmler is admiring a hitler youth type with a flare in his mitt. We must ensure that Police Scotland prevents any repetition of these scenes.
One question that bothers me is: If we can get the EU to agree to maintain Scotland’s EU membership…how do they identify Scottish members?. Currently we are legally indistinguishable from other British subjects, so how will be be defined? Would this be the beginning of defining Scottish citizenship, rather than British subject?….I certainly hope so.
@Ian B
I ask myself that question every fecking night.
heedtracker,
“Because they weren’t Project Feared!”
Yes they were, by international leaders from Obama downwards, by the Bank of England governor, by politicians and by big business.
Whatever their reasons and prejudices, unlike the Scottish wimps, the English were not intimidated.
They were not scared into leaping into the unknown.
I could say headteacher tracer that, that was a very lose homage to Shakespeare, but that would be a lie, bugger I wish I said let lose!
And that is why I love wings!
England what the fuckng hell have you done,! If your intention was the destruction of the Union, I would have supported you, but you have lost the union, through fear! And that is shocking, you said the risk of your borders was a reason, you said Isis was a reason, the only part of your country that had a terrorist attack voted remain, that now is the mark of you!
Hi Rock.
It’s another of those rare occasions where I find myself nodding in agreement with you. You typed,
“The Yes side in the next Scottish independence referendum should also not propose any policies on anything.
Policies can be proposed by the different parties after independence when the Scottish electorate can decide.”
That’s the point that was obscured by clouds (the media) prior to Indyref1.
The over-riding principle is independence for Scotland – what comes after is up to the first government of iScotland. For example, a multi-question referendum. The questions (with a simple YES/NO choice), could be along the lines of…
Should Scotland retain the monarchy?
Should Scotland remain a member of the European Union?
Should Scotland be a member of NATO?
Should all Trump holdings in iScotland be nationalised?
Seemples!
Papko,
You are a pathetic little yoon troll with scarcely the intelligence of a midge, but just as irritating.
@Robert
I have politely asked questions and queried outcomes, having a different view point is not “trolling” .
This site discuses Scottish politics, over one million Scots voted “Leave”, I was not one of them.
There are many posters here whose opinions I respect , Doug Daniels, Pfeiifer, Chic , and Heedtracker amongst many.
Though I do think some Ids are “spoofs”.
The REV in this thread is offering the hand of conciliation to “NO” voters, My questions have been civil, yet I am treated with much venom.
I appreciate this is a stressful time for you, and wish you all the best.
But this time the purring queen was on the side of the separatists.
Papko @ 9.49
You’re working too hard Papko. Keep it simple. Indyref 2 is about Scotland’s sovereignty.
The immediate relevance of Europe is that Scotland’s current lack of sovereign authority has just greatly imperilled Scotland’s interests and done so contrary to the will of our democratically expressed opinion. We are on course to leave the EU despite quite properly electing to stay in.
Indyref 2 is not to decide whether we are in Europe or out. Indyref 2 is deciding whether we should be responsible for making that decision, and countless others like it, or have Westminster free to ignore us make those decisions for us.
Either we decide for ourselves, or have Westminster decide for us. That is the Independence issue in a “just to clarify” nutshell.
@Andrew McLean –
Yeah, you’re right.
Like most commenters, I applaud Rev’s call for understanding and tolerance etc, but there must be exceptions.
The pests who come here with their negativity, faux concern and provocation are obvious and deserve nothing but contempt.
Even more difficult to tolerate are the same old voices and faces repeating the mantras which have sustained them since Sep 2014 – the ‘once-in-a-generation’ canard has been trotted out more than once today. Murdo Fraser did it on Radio Scotland approx 5.15. He, Mundell, Ruth Davidson and every other Scottish BTUKOKer (be they blue or red), in Holyrood or WM, must now be forcefully challenged each and every time they come out with this pish, and the BBC should be pulled-up every time it gives that lie uncritical airing.
Many of us have been calling for the SNP to get the gloves off for what now feels like years. John Swinney will not be unaware of the reaction to his rare displays of righteous anger, and there are surely more SNP members, in Holyrood and WM, who can and should fulminate just as impressively – they certainly don’t have to look hard for good reasons to let rip.
Papko,
You make sense, only if you genuinely are asking? Don’t worry to much no one has threatened you, unlike other forms, do take a chill, feeling is sensitive, because we have been lied to yet again.
Peace brother. Ok?
Hi Andrew McLean.
You typed,
“Britain passed away in the early hours of this morning”
I guess you actually mean that “The United Kingdom” became “The Kingdom of England (and Wales)” in the early hours? Britain, as an island, will still be here – unless some strange tectonic activity causes the island to sink.
@Ian Brotherhood
Maybe there’s a full moon?
cearc
“It is astonishing the mess that they are in. No plans, no idea what to do. Nobody had even discussed the mechanisms or post-brexit policies.”
That is to the eternal shame of both the leave campaign (for providing no plan whatsover), the remain campaign (for not exploiting this) but above all the UK media for demanding no detail and offering the public nothing in the way of real information.
If the people of the UK could even claim to be better informed about the EU then at least that would be something but we don’t know much more than we knew before.
What are the groupings in the EU parliament? Ask 1000 people to name the major groupings within the EU parliament and I would be amazed if you got a coherent answer from more than one or two of them. I would struggle to answer myself.
So- no plan. Well- WE have a plan. Nicola Sturgeon has a plan.
The picture will be clearer once the dust settles but this is a giant leap forward for regaining our Independence.
Am raising a glass to all friends on Wings and our country. And shaking my head in disbelief at the state of affairs down south.
Just a wee aside- Gibraltar declared almost to a man to remain in the EU. I canny imagine they will be too happy with this result- not sure the implications as I havenae heard mention of them today.
Rock @ 22:13 said:
This kind of lofty exclusionism is exactly the kind of mistake that could lose us another referendum. How do you think we can possibly win if we high-mindedly disdain practically everybody who voted the other way last time? Every vote has to count. There are some iffy people on the yes side that I can hardly agree with on anything except indy, but that’s all that matters. As others have said, we can return to normal politics once that necessary goal has been reached. Not before.
Just remember that a sincere convert such as J.K. Rowling can influence many more former “no” voters than you or I likely ever could. That magnifier is priceless, and doesn’t cost any more than a wee dram of the milk of human kindness.
There has to be a fair amount of “forgive if not entirely forget” on both former sides if we are to win this thing the next time.
There’s no place for any kind of primadonna posturing. It’s way too important for that.
Brian Doonthetoon,
“The over-riding principle is independence for Scotland – what comes after is up to the first government of iScotland.”
The SNP White Paper turned out to be a big mistake.
No hostages to fortune next time about the pound, the purring queen, NATO, EU, the curse of oil.
Vote for independence and then you can democratically vote for whatever policies you like.
With the likes of Johnson and Farage in charge of a fascist UK, if we don’t vote for independence, it will be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that we are too stupid to be independent.
It gets worse, now the EU media is calling it Black Thursday.
Scrub what I said about Hollande, he went to his favourite theme, increase in terror attacks.
It’s like the pig fiddler has died, they are all talking in the past tense, and John Pinaar sadly narrated a wee cobbled video. Cammers on a bike, Cammers with the huskies.
Ahh, those were the days.
People like Papko will NEVER be convinced, rule them out and target the waverers.
Positively, with respect and dedication.
That is how we will WIN.
Brian I wouldn’t put it past the bastards!
Ian Brotherhood,
“Many of us have been calling for the SNP to get the gloves off for what now feels like years.”
Weren’t you till very recently a member of the various brands of Socialists for donkeys’ years?
Tam Jardine said:
Hmmm, if we get our independence, do you think we could invite them to join us…? =grin=
Cheers Andrew Maclean and Breeks,
I am genuinely asking as it does not make sense to me, I appreciate you explaining your tension “as you have been lied to before”.
I am a tad shocked today as well, I voted remain.
I will leave now to think of what you said.
My wife’s a very proud English woman but has been fuming all day and is ashamed at what has happened and says if I could get a job in Scotland she’d move. Two votes for indie guaranteed, job hunting begins tomorrow.
Valerie says:
No they wernae. No for us onywae.
(But I know you know that already. =laugh=)
It’s fascinating watching the UK crumble in front of our eyes.
It was our indyref that started this, and I’m thoroughly looking forward to the next campaign which, I suspect, will be very different in tone and will be all about facts, common sense and positioning independence as the pragmatic and safe choice.
Cheers to everyone on here, let’s enjoy the spectacle before we knuckle down to deliver independence, I suspect within a year.
I find myself quietly simmering to the extent that I’ve done something I swore, after the 19th of September 2014, that I would never do…
Today, I renewed my membership of the SNP.
God help us if we don’t get out of this mess, this time.
PS I also treated myself to some of these, courtesy of Amazon…
“Scotland SCO Sticker Within Euro EU Stars”
Enhances the rear of any vehicle!
Ian Brotherhood says:
@Andrew McLean –
Yeah, you’re right.
Like most commenters, I applaud Rev’s call for understanding and tolerance etc, but there must be exceptions.
um….. what about the daily record??
https://twitter.com/search?q=daily+record&ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Esearch
If they want Indy then I don’t care what they voted before.
Enough of us long term nationalists can remember when some of the ex labourites who ended up in yes called us tartan Tories and Scottish nose pickers.
We worked with you lot in 2014 so we can all work with repentant no voters. I don’t care as long as they vote for Indy.
would like to see the snp mp,s taking a day off,leave those
benches empty.
let the tories and labour sit and look at one another.
a silent protest… like what was done to them after the GE.
maybe someone can be delegated to leave those white roses on
thier seats.
ahundredthidiot,
“People like Papko will NEVER be convinced, rule them out and target the waverers.”
As I have been long saying about the vast majority of the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle classes and the English who mostly fall in either or both of those categories.
@Not Convinced says: 24 June, 2016 at 6:46 pm:
” … 1) What’s wrong the joining the Common Travel Area alongside the rUK and the Republic of Ireland?”
Sheesh! Another one sucking up the Westminster establishment propaganda.
In the first place Scots are EU citizens and until “The country of Scotland”, volunteers to leave the EU they will remain so. There are no EU rules, laws or mechanisms that can expel EU Citizens against their will and the country and kingdom of Scotland has not voted to leave.
Second of all the title of the present Member State is, “The United Kingdom Of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”. It is not, “The Country of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, and the definition of, “Great Britain”, is, “The Main Island of the British Isles that contains the, countries of England, Scotland & Wales”.
The United Kingdom is exactly that – a bi-partite union of kingdoms and as such, when the bi-partite kingdom splits company, the Status Quo Ante does not leave behind a United Kingdom of anything. because it has just become disunited. The status quo ante is a return to the three country Kingdom of England and the Kingdom and country of Scotland.
Why are you so ready to believe the Westminster propaganda and ignore the truth of text contained in the historic document that is the Treaty of Union?
There is absolutely no legal doubts that what the Treaty of Union united was not four countries – it was only the two Kingdoms that signed the treaty and that Kingdom of England had annexed Wales in 1284 and Ireland in 1542.
There is not a single mention of countries in the entire document and there is no doubt that the Kingdom of England had annexed both Wales and Ireland hundreds of years before they signed up to the Treaty that begat the United Kingdom.
There cannot be a legal rUK. It will be the Kingdom of England as it was before signing up to the Treaty of Union.
Just as I typed that Boris was on the news talking about, “Our Country”, but the UK has never been a country. Go figure out why The Establishment keep repeating that particular lie over and over again. Then search through recorded history to see if you can find any documentation that shows when the United Kingdom legally became a unified country.
@Rock –
‘Weren’t you till very recently a member of the various brands of Socialists for donkeys’ years?’
Yes, as you well know. I was a member of the SSP from late 2011 until May 8th this year.
And your point is?
Ian,
No battle plan survives contact with the enemy, this is a honing point, a testing station. A lot of what is posted here finds its way into unionists talk very fast, really look, very fast.
Wings is unique, why else do you think so much attention is given by “others”.
As I said battle joined! You think people who’s job is the defence of the realm are sitting back? Really? How much budget do they have, and they have to buy their own frigin coffee? And it’s not like it’s even good quality, and forget bringing in your own machine, that right chaps!
Rock
Would you kindly stop being a dick and get on board.
Read the Revs article and stop being a Jim Sillars wannabe.
It’s counter productive.
Well I got some time off tonight to go out and get a pint and I enjoyed winding up the Moray kippers and their Tory henchies. They seem unwilling to accept that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU.
I voted to Leave yesterday but I am enough of a democrat to respect that vote and I would hope that others in the Yes movement will also respect that vote and focus their energy and mental capacities on getting us free of London Rule. Scotland voted fairly decisively yesterday for me. I am getting fed up with the whole EU thing now and those who want to rake over it.
If somebody wants to get out the EU that much and live under permanent neo fascist rule from London then move to fuckin England.
Robert J. Sutherland,
“Just remember that a sincere convert such as J.K. Rowling”
You are even more gullible than I thought you were.
No point in debating anything with you.
I would say that J.K. Rowling is the most insincere person living in Scotland.
Rock says:
24 June, 2016 at 10:21 pm
heedtracker,
“Because they weren’t Project Feared!”
Yes they were, by international leaders from Obama downwards, by the Bank of England governor, by politicians and by big business.
Whatever their reasons and prejudices, unlike the Scottish wimps, the English were not intimidated.
They were not scared into leaping into the unknown.”
Calling No voters wimps wont help anyone or any cause.
You cant compare even just the last 2 weeks of the furious BBC led hysteria Project Fearing Sept 2014 with Brexit yesterday. They’re completly trashed their own purdah and then totally freaked out with that historic The Vow fraud.
All of the BBC’s Project Fear Scotland campaign is worth thousand’s of PHD’s, focusing on just Great British nationalism and history alone. England thinks Scotland’s theirs by right for all kinds of British nationalist creepiness.
Scots know they were terrorised and then robbed with the Vow 2014, which could explain the ongoing SNP wins, and what may have been tactical Scottish voting in Scotland yesterday. Watch how proto fascists at the Daily Heil for example are trying to make SNP vote look like Brexit too.
We’ll find out eventually with independence. I believe that life is for the living, taking risks and biting off more than you can chew but I don’t judge anyone who thinks otherwise.
Chin Chin Rock.
ahundredthidiot,
“It’s counter productive.”
Yes it is.
On one hand saying:
“People like Papko will NEVER be convinced, rule them out and target the waverers.”
And then trying to convince exactly the same sort of people as Papko.
Yep, Gibraltar is interesting. Of course they would want to stay in given the precarious claim of ownership but they are also considered to be the keenest of flag-waving Brits.
I haven’t seen any reaction from them. The Brit-media certainly aren’t interested.
heed
yer girlfriend on scotland tonight sounding less cock sure and a bit frightened
🙂
Record supports Indyref2!
Tam, not only did they have no plans, you perhaps wont be surprised to note that “what is the EU” is trending as most asked google enquiry in UK.
Re Gibraltar, I think Spain/ Gib might be looking at Joint Sovereignty and given their remain vote that would offer them a route in perhaps.
There seems to be a movement from No to Yes. We had Eric Joyce earlier, and a Lab Councillor. Mike Dailly (he of the list) and now Jakey. The more the merrier…
Allan Jarlsson
Hi peeps.
“Scotland SCO Sticker Within Euro EU Stars”
They’re cheaper on eBay…
I have to admit that when Nicola Sturgeon announced there would be a 2nd Referendum on the table there were a few tears of happiness here along with a shout that could only be compared to the Archie Gemmill goal against Holland in 1978 hitting the back of the net.
You could see it coming with the way she delivered the speech this morning. Sitting here willing it to be said, hoping and wishing she would say the words all of us on here wanted to hear even though the Rev. has predicted most of it with his mystical Rev ball!
I’ve heard NS before many, many times but this was different. Something just grabbed your attention, the way she stood, the colours, the reflections in the mirror, the whole speech, the EU and Saltire flags? Who knows. Just something different about this one.
All I knew was Nicola Sturgeon was on and when the First Minister speaks at the podium in Bute House you just knew something good was coming. Certainly didn’t miss and hit the wall and as is always expected she delivered yet again.
I’ve had questions about the level of competence, focus, commitment and lots of other things with the SNP that has made me personally question whether things were going in the correct direction, when would an announcement be made on Indyref2, when would they bite back at the media, who has a backbone to stand up to the Anti Scottish SNP BAD rhetoric?
Just felt enough was enough. Is this it, is this going to be our destiny to continue to be a colony of the Great British Empire?
Today my confidence has returned with the three or four minute speech from the First Minister. If that’s the level of straight to the point in your face take no shit way of putting things across then I think we will have a very good campaign. Grown up politics vs the dinosaurs that have just been hit by the asteroid except the dinosaurs don’t know what an asteroid can do!
This site is an absolute goldmine of information, opinions and links to even more relevant Indy info. Each and every person that posts here, no matter what Independence persuasion needs to take a minute to think about what we’ve achieved already, what we’re about to start on and most importantly what will go down in the history of this wonderful and diverse country of Scotland for hundreds of years to come.
Now is the time. Tomorrow we begin.
People of Scotland, lets do this as the time has come to stand up and be counted.
OT Rev, If you need a pre Indyref2 campaign fundraiser then I’m sure a lot of us can spare £10 or £20 or maybe you’d prefer Euro’s!
I want going to post anything, but just noticed that Moody’s have just put the uk as negative, I hope not but that if true had just fucked all our pensions, no really ukok is now a toxic debt! 250 billion, really Bank of England from where, you are 3 trillion in debt?
Rock
I forgot to add, I do not disagree with everything you or Sillars say, but when it comes to hearts and minds, then you both need to park it.
I say this seriously, because we have one more chance, just one, and if we don’t succeed then it is over, or there will be blood. And no one wants that.
Ian Brotherhood,
“@Rock –
‘Weren’t you till very recently a member of the various brands of Socialists for donkeys’ years?’
Yes, as you well know. I was a member of the SSP from late 2011 until May 8th this year.
And your point is?”
My point is, if you were in SSP until very recently, isn’t it rank hypocrisy to state:
“Many of us have been calling for the SNP to get the gloves off for what now feels like years.”
Someone in the SSP calling for another party to get the gloves off?
At least you have finally realised that the socialists have been exploited by the establishment for ever.
@Cearc 9.51
Unlikely unless Scotland leaves and then the Westmonster bubble loses the will to hang onto the 6 counties – no point in trying to prove the indivisibility of the Union with Scotland gone.
I’d say though that by the time Ingerlaand leaves the EU there will be only a small minority of people in NI without an Irish passport – and that’s bound to help
I am pretty sure that only 2 of the 7 Unionist Councillors on my Council don’t have Irish passports even now
I have signed 2 of them. I know of another senior Unionist politician that is ultra-anti-Irish but I was informed by an indiscreet constituent working in a EU based bank that he used an Irish passport to open a bank account there. Bloody diaspora – they just get everywhere.
I find it easy to welcome converts to the yes side. I suspect I have a few in my work already. Once they join my gang they are onside and I don’t drag up the shit they spouted 2 years ago.
It’s great when people switch sides and we shouldn’t drag up the past. A welcome mat encourages them to stay and others to follow.
Even JK is welcome. If she helps get some luvvies to vote yes then she is in our gang.
I think what England has done has been an epiphany for many Scottish people. How can we stay in a country that drags a whole other nation out of something they voted to stay in.
Meantime Brussels are mot going to let Cameron drag article 50 out till October.
@Papko
Yeah it’s a bad time, but no time like the present.
Over 1 million voted “Leave”, 38% of those who voted in Scotland. Yes, they would need to be represented in an Independent Scotland, and as I’ve said before and will sayh again, while Indy fef 2 will be Independence so taht we can stay in the EU, I think that should be confirmed in a further referendum 5 years after Scotland is Independent and settled in the EU. That way the 38% get their chance again.
As to “why”, you and the 38% voted for the UK to levae the EU, you didn’t vote for iScotland to leave the EU, because that was not an option. I think Indy Scotland could do wayh better in the EU than the UK does, we would engage, the UK opposes, we are small and can work toegether with other small countries, not forgetting the large blocks would need our votes, in exchagne for stuff we think is important and they don’t (perhaps like fishing).
So for iScotland to leave the EU is veryh different from the UK leaving the EU, or at least I think so.
Spain have already said that but they need a coherent government at Westminster before it can even be discussed. I can’t see the ever shrinking dregs of the British Empire to be too happy about ‘loosing’ their bit of rock.
Rock at 10.21
No they were not. Most of the English press – the Sun, the Mail, The Express, the Star, the Telegraph and others supported OUT and the English voter had very limited scaremongering to contend with and all of it too late to affect the result.
ahundredthidiot,
“Rock
I forgot to add, I do not disagree with everything you or Sillars say, but when it comes to hearts and minds, then you both need to park it.”
Who made this comment:
“People like Papko will NEVER be convinced, rule them out and target the waverers.”
By the way there is no comparison between what I post and what the unionist agent Sillars says on Pravda GB.
tom devine still yes
henry mcleish supports indyref2 and now yes
ming campbell still no
I don’t think anyone can be angry at converts to the cause. One of the reason I feel so much exasperation at unionists is that they are my own countrymen with whom I have an affinity. They are the opposite of the ‘other’. To see them waving the crown rag and cheering on the party that ride roughshod over our country is heartbreaking. So when they finally see the light of course there is nothing but joy in my heart.
Newsflash: Henry McLeish has pulled the fence post out of his arse and declared he is ready to jump as the EU vote is a’game changer’…..the lice are loupin’ right enough.
Papko, Go to your bed son, get a good sleep, then get yourself off the glue or whatever stimulant your are on.
Fact,
The UK is finished, Engerland has been delusional for generations.
“We make cars and export them over the world” blah blah.
Ask yourself, which countries actually own the car companies in the UK? Who owns the financial companies?
Yes Engerland is f u ckd
But the reality is don’t expect Scotland to bail Engerland out on this one.
Surprised at Wales but hey ho, who cares.(They have made their bed)
Gary45% Gundersonsonindyref2son, mon the Icelanders.
schrodingers cat says:
24 June, 2016 at 10:58 pm
heed
yer girlfriend on scotland tonight sounding less cock sure and a bit frightened
Ha! That’s what she gets for pulling an all nighter on Graun CiF, raging away at the vile seps of her Scotland region. That’s not a thing by the way:D
Actually I think Prof Tomkinski is wildly furious at both his English country persons for actually voting Brexit and at his own beloved toryboy world that thought a Brexit ref yesterday would smite that blighter Farage.
Best-laid plans of mice and toryboys often go awry.
@Rock (10.53) –
‘No point in debating anything with you.’
That gem was directed at Robert Sutherland, who will no doubt respond as he sees fit, but let me just point out, ‘Rock’, that you don’t do ‘debate’, period.
You belittle, smear, sneer, drop snidey remarks, dismiss the bewildered/terrorised as ‘wimps’, defame any MSM effort to provide pro-Indy platforms, issue fawning tributes to Stuart Campbell while traducing the most regular WOS btl contributors, and manage to do it all in a style which is remarkable only for its unremitting vapidity.
You want a debate, Rock?
Fair do’s, but be warned – the ‘gloves-off’ approach is one which many commenters here have (hitherto at any rate) been reluctant to deploy. Some may enjoy practising it via exchanges with you.
But you don’t ‘do’ real debate, dae ye?
Well…dae ye?
Dave McEwan Hill,
“Rock at 10.21
“the English voter had very limited scaremongering to contend with”
Accept from Obama, Merkel, Hollande, the EU, all EU leaders, Bank of England governor, Remain politicians, City of London bankers and money launderers.
Same scaremongering about terrorism, economy, austerity budgets, pensions.
As for the press, it is often said that people don’t vote according to the press.
Pravda GB was also subtly on the Remain side but the fear of Brexit winning and Johnson taking revenge made them tow a more neutral line, unlike the open hostility to Yes in Scotland.
@Cat. 10.58
That’s what I thought! Wee bitty trembly lip, and hesitant voice.
That Heedtracker should take better care of his Slovene girlfriend.
Rock
Hold on, you are being a little black and white here. I know many staunch unionists, who will never be convinced. What i am saying is target the soft underbelly of the No vote, NOT the uber unionist vote.
You and I can make a difference, if we just get focussed, realise our target audience and make a ‘reasonable’ pitch, sober and convincing.
5% swing, maybe 8, is all we need, don’t ruin it with crazy brabeheart pish.
Robert J. Sutherland
Not so keen on linking up with anyone let alone Gibraltar. It is interesting as is the situation in London and Northern Ireland but they must resolve their own situations to the satisfaction of their own people and we need to keep well out of it.
I found Nicola’s comments about speaking to the London Mayor quite interesting as well – that is something that perhaps would be best left well alone.
England and Wales are now bound for a wilderness of sorts and whether it is successful or not their people will have to deal with the consequences. Northern Ireland have issues we again should steer well clear of other than to offer support and the hand of friendship.
@ Sutherland 10.35
“Just remember that a sincere convert such as J.K. Rowling can influence many more former “no” voters than you or I likely ever could. That magnifier is priceless, and doesn’t cost any more than a wee dram of the milk of human kindness.”
Indeed. If she switches sides she is worth 2 votes. St Paul persecuted Christians before he fell on the road to Damascus and we have him to blame for spreading that meme all over the Eastern Mediterranean.
I’d say don’t gag publicly, and the likes of her could trigger a landslide
And we would have her 1000 lawyers to sue anyone who disagreed with her too
(but seriously – if Ruthie or Kezzie turned pro-Scotland and embraced independence – I’s say she should be embraced back}
Ian Brotherhood,
“You want a debate, Rock?”
Yes, you have again be exposed as the hypocrite you are.
As a member of the SSP, having the cheek to state:
“Many of us have been calling for the SNP to get the gloves off for what now feels like years.”
Can you debate that?
Rock,
I second ahundredthidiot @22:52
Are you all-seeing God or something that gives you this special insight? Can you somehow look into the mind of JKR and know what she’s thinking & feeling? Is she uniquely unable to honestly put two and two together over indy as we have done? Why do you care so much about needlessly making enemies anyway?
You need to lose all those negative waves, man.
yup val
i heard he had one too many “orkney dark island wife beater” and set aboot her on cif 🙂
Cadogan,
Thanks for that.
Personally, I think that things will start to move quite fast here and England will be such a mess that it will be pretty obvious that they don’t give a toss about the people of NI other than as a possession of empire.
So interesting times, eh?
FFS… No the Record oan anaw noo
https://mobile.twitter.com/murrayf00te/status/746452177992945665/photo/1
Lochside,
“Henry McLeish has pulled the fence post out of his arse and declared he is ready to jump as the EU vote is a’game changer’…..the lice are loupin’ right enough.”
Those are exactly the sort of people I don’t want anywhere near the official Yes campaign.
But the likes of Pravda GB will exploit them to the full, as they did last time with the likes of Jim Sillars.
We can and will win without the likes of them.
If they are allowed to play a part, they will claim credit afterwards and then undermine an independent Scotland from within.
Henry McLeish is a totally unprincipled chameleon.
TBH from what I saw of it, south of the Border was not subjected to Project Fear, but it was Project Fact less, with a huge dollop of bravado.
I thought Brexit was definitely a possibility, because the case for dismissing scares, or probing questions was so comprehensive.
The Brexiteers presence on FB was overwhelming, not answering any logical questions, but responding with how strong Great Britain is. Also, the really biggie was undemocratic Brussels, you just couldn’t convince them, that was bullshit.
The rage that many of them feel is genuine and fully justified
never felt rage against those who voted no……never will
felt sad for my country…..but understood their fear and why they voted no….
never have and never will blame peeps who voted no……only see them as those that can and will be won over (90% aren’t like GS)
how could anyone blame people for being scared when we all know what project fear was like
none of them are lost to us…….and none of us are what the papers protrayed us as
we love our country – we love our people no matter what they voted
we love those over the border – if not what was independance – but a chance to be equals (no matter how hard) and get rid of the barnett – to be viewed as a people who stand on their own feet and take the punches that life throws, to share equally the pain and joy – to work as equals to support each other
that is what it meant to me
If the record wants a referendum today, lets have it tomorrow, if the record says we are behind you, wear a stab vest. The record is a hotbed of paid ukok destroy the SNP lunatics!
In other words, and apologies to the faint hearted, get to fuck record.
Just watching David Coburn on Scotland Today. As the only UKIP member of any parliament representing Scotland I think we can thank him above all for the Remain vote being so high.
This absurd cretin (and I am being generous here) has been the public face of Euroscepticism up here. Was there ever a man who had such a poor grasp of his subject? Or appears on television so ill-prepared?
In the history of Scottish Independence as written by future generations this ridiculous character will, I am sure, be attributed significance in smothering support for Brexit up here.
Has anyone heard from the Scottish Liberal Democrats? …I’ll say that again… HAS ANYONE HEARD FROM THE SCOTTISH LIBERAL DEMOCRATS?
Will the Scottish Liberal Democrats now support a Yes vote in Ref2 ???
schrodingers cat @ 23:10 said:
That’s very good news – glad to hear that Henry made good on his promise. (Got a link for that, by any chance?) Hope others from his tradition will follow his good example (and out of principle, not mere bandwagon-jumping).
As for Ming the Merciless, he’s exposed as a paid-up shill for WM. Another typical failure to rise to the occasion. Actually, have any FibDems broken cover yet, or are they all cowering in their irrelevance?
Well said Stuart. I believe many ‘No’ voters from 2 years ago were shocked and appalled today at this mornings early results. I’ll bet many were sickened to the core.
However, we are where we are, but at the same time …so it begins.
Stuart, if you need any new funds for any new ideas then believe me, let us all know! I don’t think you’ll have a problem here. In fact, I predict fund raising on an epic record scale if you were to ask.
I think we have reached tipping point with this vote.
England grandstanding with their …still a most important voice in europe/the world etc. Despite being broke, with a the negative credit rating whilst industry and commerce flee, can only help.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Just remember that a sincere convert such as J.K. Rowling can influence many more former “no” voters than you or I likely ever could. That magnifier is priceless, and doesn’t cost any more than a wee dram of the milk of human kindness.
Agree with you there. To be honest, I had JK Rowling down as a simple British nationalist, but I’ll be happy if I was wrong.
If the choice is between an open, outwards looking Scotland that welcomes EU workers, and a right wing extremist UK that wants to pull up the drawbridge, there may be plenty of people, especially labour supporters, that would prefer to support the type of positive civic nationalism that sees Scotland as a progressive European nation.
That said, I reckon the choice at the next indy vote should simply be about Scotland deciding. The SNP can propose to rejoin Europe afterwards, but that decision and the currency should come after the right to decide our own future.
The Brexit campaign, despite all their racist supporters, won because they had a clear simple message about “taking back control.”
If Boris Johnson is PM, then all his words on that subject will come back to haunt the Tories who are hypocritical about the same principle applying to Scotland.
@kestral
Bang on! Couldn’t agree more.
I see three simple steps. First would be to try to get a quick fix to the Scotland Act to get the reserved power to hold a referendum, unreserved. I think there would be a lot of support for that, and to make it easier to get support it should be made clear that that doesn’t neccessarily mean there will actually be an Indy ref 2, just that Holyrood with a majority vote should have the absolute right to call one.
Second then is for support for IR2, even if the first idea fails. I think the idea should be not to make the case for a YES vote, just to make the case that we need IR2.
Third then is the actual Ref, to get a YES vote hopefully.
Got an early sign in the Herald that support for the first could be quite easy, even for a strong committed NO voter in IR1, but who supported a Remain vote in the EU. Dead chuffed so I am.
Scuse typing worse than normal, on laptop not desktop.
Robert J. Sutherland,
“Can you somehow look into the mind of JKR and know what she’s thinking & feeling?”
You don’t have to read the minds of the likes of JKR.
Her vile actions have been fully documented on this very website. Look at the archives
JKR is the English person who made her fortune in Scotland but misused her power and money to prevent Scotland becoming independent.
At the very least, she should have remained neutral.
She is the person who misuses her money to threaten legal suits against anyone that dares challenge her.
We are on the verge of independence through the grassroots Yes movement.
Why give any space to the likes of Rowling and McLeish who will then exploit it the full to our detriment in independent Scotland?
Their record is there for us to see. Based on their records there is no way any sensible person could trust them.
@Rock –
Our posts overlapped…
Hypocrisy for an SSP member to call for the Scottish Government to ‘get the gloves off’?
Thanks to Sheridan, we had no representation in the SG, well before Indyref 1 was even a twinkle in Salmond’s eye.
At most, the SSP (probably in the immediate post-indy months) had a membership of 3,000. What it is now, post ‘RISE’, is anyone’s guess. Calling for the people with power to use it is hypocrisy?
I won’t apologise for having been a member of the SSP, and I won’t be distracted from the salient point here – you are one of a persistent few troublemakers in this place, but there’s nothing any of you can do to stop the inevitable. That said, it’s a real shame to see someone with obvious intelligence wasting their time on fruitless mischief-making.
Oh Rock, nane o us are guid eneuch fur ye, are wi?
Everyone, I think we should leave the man alone tonight. He’s obviously feeling particularly sore and willing to take on all comers. He’ll hopefully feel better (well, less negative at least) tomorrow…
Rock
You are mental mate, if JK and McLeish want to get on board, at the very least it is 2 more votes. We need all the votes we can get, because if you are too stupid to realise this simple fact – We LOST last time and I have no bloody appetite to lose again, so please, do wind your neck all the way fucking back in.
I am sick to death of self destructive pricks like you fucking up my dream.
Vent your spleen somewhere else. Or. Get on board. Second chances all round.
Tam Jardine 10.32pm
The Spanish government has called for joint sovereignty over Gibraltar in the wake of the UK’s vote to leave the EU.
http://archive.is/GfzV9
Apologies if already posted.
Look I think you are all being a little hard on jk Rowling, I have a record of saying that, she writes kids story’s, end off! Now the writing of Janet and John, ( bucket, I always thought of a bucket and a hill? ) anyway she is not Milton, I just don’t like the fact she is an apologist for a creepy sexiest weirdo?
ahundredthidiot,
“Rock
Hold on, you are being a little black and white here. I know many staunch unionists, who will never be convinced. What i am saying is target the soft underbelly of the No vote, NOT the uber unionist vote.”
That is exactly what I am saying.
The “staunch unionists, who will never be convinced”, the “uber unionist vote” are:
The vast majority of the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle classes and the English who mostly fall in either or both of those categories.
I can bet that the many staunch unionists you know fall into those categories.
Val @ 23:29,
I agree pretty much with what you’re saying. I’m not on FB, so totally ignorant of that, but from what I’ve heard, the young voters even in England were for Remain, so I don’t see how such a presence as you mention did Leave much good. The old grannies certainly don’t go there. (Instant humble apologies to all the ones who do!) Are the typical angry dispossessed much exposed to that, or do they still get their notions from eg. the Europhobe tabloids?
Update on an earlier post. Cameron has discussed the outcome of the referendum with Nicola Sturgeon. Mundell, sweating on his future implores Nicola to be reasonable.
https://caltonjock.com/2015/04/05/a-brief-history-england-and-wales-voted-to-leave-the-eu-scotland-voted-to-remain-early-indications-are-that-the-unionist-parties-will-opt-to-remain-with-the-uk-this-could-be-the-start-of-anoth/
@Rock
We are on the verge of independence through the grassroots Yes movement.
Why give any space to the likes of Rowling and McLeish who will then exploit it the full to our detriment in independent Scotland?
Because sometimes, we need more than just the commonality.
As an example, when Scotland refused to accept the English Book of Common Prayer by Charles I over our very own Book of Common Order, it was the spark that ignited the Bishops War and the War of the Three Kingdoms (the English Civil War). The people of Scotland’s refusal to bow to the pressure that was coming from Charles was greatly enhanced when backed by many of the Scottish nobility. It gave the people of Scotland a greater ‘authority’ in renouncing what Charles wanted. The Commonality couldn’t do it alone without the nobility.
It’s the same here. If JK Rowling, Henry McLeish …hell, even the Daily Record (it’s absolutely surreal) …all begin to advocate Scottish independence, then no matter what was done or said before, I’ll take their support. It will give our overall campaign not only a greater gravitas in argument with having serious heavyweights aboard as well as a broad spectrum of Scottish society, but it enhances our ‘authority’ when we go to Westminster looking for that right to have another referendum.
Right now …we will need all the support we can get. We shouldn’t be pointing fingers or cold shouldering those who now believe that just maybe …just maybe …we were right. Let’s be the better people in this.
http://player.stv.tv/ for henry mcleish quote
mrs cat says, hope mr tunnock comes out fer yes too, am desparate fur a tea cake
Has anyone seen George Osborne?. George….the Apocalyptic Budget needs to be given to the masses….George?….the Scots are looking for another referendum. Gideon has swallowed his underpants!.
Just listening to the review of the papers on the BBC News Channel and I am aghast at the ubiquitous David Torrance giving Toby Young a hard time about the undemocratic nature (in Toby Young’s view) of the EU.
Torrance with a shake of the head reminded him that the UK was even more undemocratic with its hereditary monarchy and its House of Lords. Torrance came across as balanced and sensible for a change.
Also, Henry McLeish has come out tonight saying that he was moving to an independence position in the aftermath of the Brexit vote. Life is getting interesting.
Ian Brotherhood,
“Hypocrisy for an SSP member to call for the Scottish Government to ‘get the gloves off’?”
“I won’t apologise for having been a member of the SSP, and I won’t be distracted from the salient point”
You are now trying to change what you wrote and the point.
“Many of us have been calling for the SNP to get the gloves off for what now feels like years.”
You wrote the “SNP”, which you are now changing to the “Scottish government”. Like Pravda GB.
I don’t care if you were a member of the SSP.
What I am pointing out is the rank hypocrisy of an SSP member calling for the SNP to get the gloves off.
The SNP listens to SNP members, not to SSP members.
You are a hypocrite like Scottish Labour. Never accepting your error but blaming it on others.
Listen, can we all just agree, it’s not where you came from, just where we are going? Even you two in the back, holding hands, rock and Jk!
Rock is correct that Jakey and Henry McLeish are best ignored and or held at arms length. The former has proved herself to be a strange and tenacious litigator of any person that dares to question her…and McLeish..well I’ve had the opportunity to question him in public forums on such diverse subjects of as Scottish politics and the future of Scottish football. All I can say is that he is a dissembling chancer of the highest degree.
We are going to have many deserters coming over. But the toon clocks like Henry must be kept quarantined from any decision making in the process that we are now embarking on.
If you read just one Daily Record piece in your life- make it this one: https://archive.is/yM4Sf
Lots of vox pops and the message is emphatic: Next time I’d vote Yes in a heartbeat.
I still canny bring myself to link directly… very wise move by the record.
Well Schrödinger’s cat, Boyd is a brother mason, so he will see the light,
ian paisley mp tweeting to followers to get an irish passport….
the cat reviews the entire 11th dimension to check if he is in the correct universe…#gobsmacked
JLT,
“It will give our overall campaign not only a greater gravitas in argument with having serious heavyweights aboard as well as a broad spectrum of Scottish society”
These scum in no way represent “the broad spectrum of Scottish society”.
Labour supporters have moved in their droves to the SNP and towards independence without the likes of Rowling and McLeish.
Knowing that independence is inevitable, the likes of Rowling and McLeish are posturing to make sure they remain prominent and influential in independent Scotland.
They have no gravitas of argument. They are trying to jump on the bandwagon for their own self interest.
Or would you seriously be happy with the likes of Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Blair McDougall on our side as well?
Talking of “serious heavyweights”, would you be happy with Alistair Carmichael, Brian Wilson and Jim Murphy on our side as well?
These people are discredited to the Yes grassroots and many would actually be put off by the likes of them.
Henry McLeish has been sitting on the fence that long his arse is full of skelfs
honestly – dead easy question
YES – The rage that many of them feel is genuine and fully justified
but do you REALLY hate your fellow scot for their no votes…….do you REALLY ACTUALLY THINK THAT YOU COULD EVER IN A MILLION YEARS SEE THE PICTURES ABOVE AS BEING US WITH SCOTTISH FLAGS ……..the hate that emanates from those pictures is a million miles from us when we hold up the flag of our country
so the question
would you ever put your pain at the referendum 2014 above your love and understanding of your people?
Lock side,
All are Scottish, all have a valid place, so long as Scotland, my nation, with its diversity , multicultural, and beautiful population rise,as one, in the brotherhood of Europe, a nation of Europe, off European ideal and heart!
Thousands have died trying to become one with you, we Scotland cry out we are here in fraternal brotherhood, we are not part of the problem, but the solution.!
I can also predict with confidence that now Scottish independence is in sight again, the “independence supporting” The National will start becoming much less enthusiastic about independence.