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England’s Dreaming

Posted on February 22, 2016 by

It’s quite incredible that someone with Jim Sillars’ political experience should be so naive about the tactics surrounding the EU referendum. Regardless of your feelings on the EU itself, there’s absolutely no point in any supporter of Scottish independence voting Leave this June, and here’s why.

gazzagoal

This referendum is not about Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland – if it was, it wouldn’t be getting held so soon after our national elections. Not only does it risk overshadowing them massively in terms of media coverage (and artificially inflating UKIP’s electoral fortunes), but having just spent the last four months fighting elections, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parties won’t have the resources – human or financial – to fight another six-week campaign, especially one that many of us aren’t even particularly interested in.

But then, the very existence of this referendum is proof that Westminster doesn’t care about Scotland (or the other devolved nations). The EU referendum is about England, and England alone.

There are arguments for and against the EU from a Scottish perspective – be it farmers who depend on CAP payments (albeit the lowest in the EU, thanks to the UK government), or Scottish fishermen railing against EU fishing policy – but these are not the arguments that will be heard in the media. It’s going to be about one thing, and one thing alone, and we all know what it is, because we’ve seen it being discussed on BBC Question Time every single week for the last 150 years or so: immigration.

The only way to make this referendum relevant to Scotland is by looking at how it can help the cause of Scottish independence, and there are only two ways we can do this, and both of them involve voting to remain in the EU. They’ve been mentioned numerous times already, but they bear repeating now.

The first, and most talked about scenario, is Scotland voting to remain in the EU, but the UK as a whole voting to leave – ie Scotland being dragged out of the EU against our will. The First Minister has already identified this as a possible trigger for a second referendum, and polls suggest this could indeed be what tips some of those 55% over to our side.

(ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE KLAXON: the only person in my team at work who ended up voting No in 2014 later told me he’d vote Yes under this scenario).

The second scenario is rUK voting to leave the EU, but the UK as a whole voting to remain – ie the UK being kept in the EU purely because of Scotland. While this is unlikely to be a direct trigger for our second referendum, it would ensure that, having begged us not to leave in 2014, the next time around rUK would be asking if they could help pack our bags for us.

(And if nothing else, it would certainly be pretty hilarious to be the ones denying others their democracy for a change, after several decades of having Tory governments we didn’t vote for foisted on us by English voters.)

gallowayfarage

Now consider the scenarios if Scotland votes to leave the EU. The first is that Scotland and the UK as a whole both vote to leave the EU. In this scenario, it is utterly impossible to argue that Scotland has been dragged out of the EU against our will, and therefore there’s obviously no trigger for a second referendum.

The second scenario is that Scotland votes to leave the EU, but the UK as a whole votes to remain. On the face of it, this might appear to present the same opportunity for a trigger as the opposite result, but in reality, people would claim that the UK had saved us from ourselves, and there’s absolutely no way we’d get even 45% voting for independence if it looked like Scotland wouldn’t want to remain in the EU – after all, that was why Scotland being out of the EU was such an integral part of Project Fear.

(And anyway, this scenario is about as likely to happen as the Lib Dems winning a mainland constituency in May.)

There’s simply no tactical advantage to voting to leave the EU if you want a quick second indyref. If you’re pro-independence but anti-EU, go into the polling booth with your Scottish independence hat on (literally, if you like), hold your nose, and vote to remain. Chances are you’ll get the result you desire anyway, because if the UK is going to leave, it’ll be due to England voting that way.

But there’s one last thing. What if you DON’T want a quick second indyref? What if you think, entirely reasonably, that a 2021 scenario offers a better chance of victory and being rushed into a second Scottish vote amid the chaos of leaving the EU could be disastrous, leading to a second defeat and a hammer blow to the Yes movement?

In that situation, Scotland leaving a UK that was already outside the EU would present serious difficulties for the Yes camp when it came to Indyref 2. This time there’d be no disputing the fact that we’d face a long process to get into the EU – and whether you like it or not, whoever was in power at Holyrood at that time would be trying to. Winning a second referendum from a starting point of being unambiguously outside the EU would be a mountainous task.

And the argument that says “I don’t want independence if it just means swapping London rule for Brussels rule!” is – sorry to be blunt about this – idiotic. We already HAVE Brussels rule as well as London rule. Getting rid of one doesn’t then stop you also getting rid of the other if that’s your goal.

If you want an independent Scotland outside the EU, that argument can be fought – fairly and legitimately, on its own merits rather than being entangled in UK issues – after independence. But doing it in the wrong order would almost certainly be suicidal.

(And if you think “But English votes are our best hope of winning an EU referendum”, then that’s a funny sort of belief in Scottish self-determination you’ve got.)

Eurosceptics like Jim Sillars may not like to hear it, but voting Leave won’t help the Scottish independence cause one bit. At best it’s a wasted opportunity; at worst it’s a catastrophe. The EU referendum isn’t about us. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize.

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362 to “England’s Dreaming”

  1. Grouse Beater says:

    Westminster MPs plan to withdraw grants to academics they identify as ‘dissidents.’

    Exactly how does leaving the EU protect our civil liberties?

    Europe currently has two problems; it’s racist, and it has embraced neo-con economics. I can’t see how we can alter either for the better by isolationism, relinquishing our much vaunted ‘place at the top table’.

    And who would want to be associated with Cameron or Boris? They’re answer to everything is to be English and think English. It will drive some English north, to Scotland.

    How ineffably English, an insurmountable belief in the inherent reasonableness, impartiality, and common sense of public school politics.

  2. ewen says:

    I’ve never been 100% convinced of Jim Sillars commitment to independence. After his interview yesterday I’m even less convinced.

  3. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Well done DD.

    Most of us would struggle to compose a single paragraph about all this bollocks.

  4. Helena Brown says:

    This is my opinion also, in general I take the things Jim say’s anything. I might be getting old but I can remember him and Margo telling everyone to vote Labour.

  5. Willie John says:

    I was one of those, many moons ago, who voted to join the Common Market. I did NOT vote for any kind of United States of Europe, nor did that vote mean I wanted another layer of unelected bureaucrats. So I would wish to vote Out.

    But that vote would be cast in an independent country, so as Rev Stu says ‘hold your nose’ so that is what I’ll do in June.

  6. Big Jock says:

    I think Jim is an agent for the WM government. Everything he does nowadays seems to be mischief making!

  7. Willie John says:

    Woops! Sorry DD, I failed to read the writer of this article. Twas you said ‘hold your nose’ not Rev Stu.

  8. James Mills says:

    Agree with the writer – this referendum is little to do with Scotland but everything to do with which Bullingdon boy gets to f*** -up the country after Cameron exits stage left , smirking all the way .

  9. Macart says:

    That pretty much covered the lot Douglas and couldn’t agree more on what the referendum is truly all about. 🙂

  10. Dan Huil says:

    “Let’s keep our eyes on the prize.”

    Exactly. First things first: independence. We can concentrate on the EU, NATO etc after that.

  11. gordoz says:

    I quite like Jim Sillars but you are spot on with this analysis Doug.

  12. Sorry, I once had a great of respect for him, but I don’t take any notice of Jim Sillars, says any more.

  13. Gerbil says:

    Pseudo-objective pro-EU sophistry.

    It’s pretty obvious that the anti-EU campaign team is going to lose the ‘who do you despise most?’ contest with Iain Duncan-Smith and Michael Gove (not to mention George Galloway). If I was at all cynical, I would wonder if it wasn’t designed thus.

  14. Steven says:

    Did you seriously have to remind me of ‘that’ goal?

  15. Proud Cybernat says:

    Well articulated article, Doug. My own personal view is that should Scotland vote IN and rUK vote OUT then we should have IndyRef#2 with the same question as IndyRef#1:

    1) Should Scotland be an Independent Country?

    After this result, I think there should be a second referendum on remaining in the EU. Not sure if it would be better to have both questions ont he ballot paper?

  16. X_Sticks says:

    Analysis spot on Doug.

    I fear @naefear is becoming increasingly addled in his old age. He has some strange ideas. I suspect Margo used to keep him in order much of the time.

  17. Murray McCallum says:

    Totally agree with article.

    Everyone can have a bit of fun at the exaggerated claims of both sides as well. Just to demonstrate some of the nonsense that comes out in referendums.

  18. Fat boab says:

    “. . . there’s absolutely no point in any supporter of Scottish independence voting Leave this June”

    . . . unless, like me, you’ll be casting your vote in rUK?

  19. Auld Rock says:

    Douglas makes many of the points I’ve written for another publication. Can I pick him up on his comment about the FIB/Dems winning any mainland Constituency seats and I presume he was alluding to the possibility of the FIB/Dems retaining a toehold in the Northern Isles. Let me assure you all that here in Shetland and I know that it’s similar in Orkney, that we are doing our best to dislodge Messrs Scott and McArthur but we are up against a Party with few ‘Foot-Soldiers’ but many very wealthy doners. To this end can I please ask for your financial support. You can find out how to help at:- http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/fighting-fund-in-support-of-danus-skene

    Thank you.

    Auld Rock

  20. Doug Daniel says:

    Murray – aye, “spot the regurgitated Project Fear scare story” is one of my favourite games at the moment.

  21. Bob Mack says:

    Independence first and foremost. That is the top priority,whatever it takes.

    Remember though, if Cameron gets his way then decisions about Scotland sovereignty will be the remit of The Supreme Court in London, with POSSIBLE EU Court of Appeal. I emphasise possible.
    If Cameron does not get his way then decisions about Sovereignty also revert to the Supreme Court in London with no EU appeal.

  22. Proud Cybernat says:

    Oh, and isn’t there some other option some twit came up with – that Scotland can remain in the EU even if rUK votes OUT? Aye, very good.

    1) BREXIT
    2) SCOOT

    SNP x 2 – say NO to UKIP

  23. steveasaneilean says:

    As I said over on WGD, I want Scotland to be an independent nation. It’s up to the people of an independent Scotland to decide whether or not they wish to be part of the EU and up to the other 27 or 28 states whether or not they’ll have us.

    This referendum may or may not aid us on our way to independence but to me it’s otherwise just a bombastic side show I can do without and will be largely ignoring.

    I will still be pushing for independence regardless of the outcome so the outcome is essentially irrelevant to me.

  24. Kryczek says:

    Guess I’ll just need to suck it up then. I do maintain that if we were already independent then I’d be voting to leave but we need all the help we can get against the tory scum.

  25. Swami Backverandah says:

    @RevStu
    “But there’s one last thing. What if you DON’T want a quick second indyref? What if you think, entirely reasonably, that a 2021 scenario offers a better chance of victory”

    Would the “Scotland being dragged out of the EU by rUK against her will” scenario necessarily bring a 2nd IndyRef before 2021?

    Untangling from EU would take years, and if Tories win again 2020, wouldn’t Scot Gov have a better argument by delaying indyref till after that,(presuming that is, that the SNP Gov is in a strong position for re-election approaching 2021) ie making a doubly strong case that the Tory referendum has dragged us out of the EU, and we also face another 5 years of unelected rule by Westminster.

    Isn’t that a strong position for a post 2021 indyref2?

    My feeling is that indyref2 prior to that might just be a bit too much of voteroverload for the electorate and could lead to a hardening of status quo, particularly from those folks who are most risk averse.

  26. Johnny says:

    Particularly like the point that it is/was a nonsense to go on about how voting Yes meant ‘swapping English rule for Brussels rule’.

    Indyref was about whether you wanted to remove one layer of government and have all other staying in place (albeit, of course, with a far more powerful Holyrood).

  27. mike cassidy says:

    Is it too early to speculate how this eu referendum might influence the Holyrood election itself?

    For example, could the next few months of “little englander tory” mentality being stuffed down our throats scupper the tank commander’s hopes of being leader of Holyrood’s opposition?

  28. Hugh Barclay says:

    Jim Sillars imo was a wee bit of a liability during the Indyref, I was never sure if he was going to say something that would hurt our cause, seems he is still the same.

    No harm to Jim but he is off the mark here just as he was last month advocating voting RISE with our 2nd vote.

  29. StevieCosmic says:

    If you’re a yesser and you want to vote to leave the EU, then quite frankly you are an imbecile.

    An indy Scotland IN the EU is not the same thing as a Scotland in Union being IN the EU. Scotland loses out from the EU because of negotiations undertaken by London for London. As an independent member state, Scotland has a very large hand dealt to it that would have considerable sway at the negotiating table.

    Oil aside, I read an article several years ago that said there 6000 Spanish vessels, half their commercial fishing fleet, in the North Sea at any one time. Spain is the largest seafood producer in the EU, it’s integral to their culture and economy. And France too, apparently, has nearly 3000 vessels in the NS. That gives Scotland serious commercial clout in Brussels, quite apart from all the other stuff Scotland produces.

    An indy Scotland outside of the largest trading bloc on the planet is unthinkable; a wee enclave of a parochial and self exiled island that largely trades with itself. It’s stupid.

  30. Swami Backverandah says:

    Apologies – just noticed it’s Doug.
    Hi Doug, can you respond to my query please, which was essentially that I don’t see a case for another indyref prior to at least 2021 being successful.
    Is there one?

  31. Macbeda says:

    From the Spectator article linked above .

    Don’t you just love Alex Massie’s use of “Jocksplaining”.

    “Britain is more important to Scotland than the EU. So you couldn’t afford independence. Got it, Jock?”

    Gods why are we so cursed.

    #vote SNP SNP

  32. Robert Graham says:

    Oh dear is this a rubbish Jim day ? Ok on this you might not agree with his view, but the insults ! Get a Grip .

  33. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Jim Sillars thinks in broad brush strokes. He does follow through logically in the outcomes, I mean outcomes, of this and weigh up their consequences.

    Had he been part of a team they may have been able to talk him out of these broad declarations. Margo is gone too.

    This is a game on 3 dimensions we are playing her and Jim is led by his heart and not his head.

    Ploughing his own furrow he just wants to be a leader and have his place in the history of an independent Scotland. The newspapers know this and egg him on.

    In fact he will remembered, if he doesn’t be quiet, as a loose cannon.

  34. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Ist sentence should read

    Bugger (the Panda) says:
    22 February, 2016 at 12:46 pm

    Jim Sillars thinks in broad brush strokes. He does not follow through logically in the outcomes

  35. chris kilby says:

    The Twat in The Hat.

  36. mealer says:

    Good stuff Doug.

  37. Swami Backverandah says:

    Don’t have a twitter account, but occasionally take a browse, and this one left me chuckling (don’t know about copyright protocols – hope it’s OK to paste)

    Lord Darling @A_LordDarling
    Sterling is losing ground against the Euro this morning,thanks to the reckless intentions of the EU separatists. We might lose the UK pound.

    Bill Brady added,
    What’s the plan B? What’ll be the currency in an independent UK? #Brexit

    Dervheid
    ?@Dervheid

    @TheBillBrady @A_LordDarling I suspect the currency in an independent rUK will be the Mong.
    1Mong= 100Diddies =10Idiots =5Twonks =2Spanners

    😀

  38. Doug Daniel says:

    Swami – it all depends on what the people of Scotland are saying, which is why Nicola never states it as a definite trigger, merely a potential one.

  39. Luigi says:

    I am still genuinely undecided about Europe (as are quite a few friends and relatives, both YES and NO voters). Doug’s timely arguments certainly shine alight from a different angle and demand serious consideration.

    Another argument is that if the UK does vote to leave, then Grand Britannia goes belly up very quickly and new, as yet unforeseen opportunities for Scottish independence arise.

    A big attraction for voting to leave is that the establishment want the UK to remain in Europe, so why follow their orders? IMO the UK will vote, narrowly to remain, thanks to a number of factors, including the silent majority, last minute bottlers, shy (sneaky) voters and pension worries.

    Still undecided, but thinking this through carefully. 🙂

  40. Richardinho says:

    Just to take yet another angle on it Stuart: What about those of us (such as you and I) who live in England? I am generally inclined to vote Stay, but I am tempted to vote Leave just to stir things up a bit! 😉

  41. smapmap says:

    Its a difficult choice facing Nicola Sturgeon – I don’t envy her position. I don’t think we’d win a second referendum right now, and we should call it only when we are sure of winning. I appreciate there is a temptation to rush headlong into it. There is a strong argument which says we called indyref2 immediately after the Brexit vote, as the unionist parties will be in disarray and unable to mount a meaningful No campaign. I have reservations over our ability to win even in these circumstances. The 55+ age age group vote remains solidly unionist as do the ‘I’m all right jacks’ and the structural issues which blighted indyref1 (currency in particular, banks exiting etc) have not been addressed – we’d basically be going in with the same proposal which isn’t good enough to change enough minds. I’d prefer we get an independence convention established for a few years and call for for indyref2 when we’re ready – and then go for a quick referendum campaign in 2020 or 2021. I think this has the best chance of winning. Put in the effort now – reap the rewards later.

  42. galamcennalath says:

    There was always touch of the woolly leftie about Jim Sillars. I know some people on the left see the EU is negative because they believe someday there will be a workers paradise in these island.

    That is highly unlikely!

    If they think the EU is right wing and fear TIPPS, then they should consider what a EU-less UK will be like under the Tories!

    Civil, social and employment rights will be cast aside. When it comes to trade agreements between the UK and the US without EU involvement, how do they think those will go?

    The problem I always have with idealistic left lefties is they live in a dream world which will never become reality. I’m left of centre, but pragmatic.

  43. Janet says:

    It’s perfectly possible for Scotland to take the place of the UK, should the Leave camp win. None of the previous problems for other European states, such as Spain. Europe is expansionist.

    But remain in the UK after a Brexit? A state where serfdom becomes the future, with a micro-elite run rampant. Fascism. Imagine being a part of a state where folk think that a football match is a chance to rerun WW2? Hang on, there already!

    Boris is a shrewd cookie but he’s got nothing to offer Scotland.

    SNP twice over in May and a Remain vote in June.

  44. HaggisHunter says:

    The EU has defended Scotland against the UK on numerous occasions, for example renewable energy policy and poverty relief for the Highlands and Islands (Westminster’s Labour government kept the cash in London).
    A Scotland in the UK and out of Europe would be a disaster, as our history, although silenced, has shown.

  45. velofello says:

    Jim Sillars likes to be thrawn.

    Good article. Also a good article in today’s National by George Kerevan.

  46. David says:

    Well put WOS. What we should be seeking is an independent Scotland that can then decide on EU membership. If, in the coming referendum, Scotland returns a majority for leaving and England does likewise then we will have affirmed our place in the union for at least a generation. That said, I just want to remain European. The EU needs reformed and we work at that by giving it our full and committed membership. One thing fairly much missing from Cameron’s “deal” is that it needs to be ratified by the European parliament. I’m not so sure that that is a done deal. Let’s wait and see.

  47. Almannysbunnet says:

    I agree one hundred percent with Douglas Daniel. Jim Sillars’ approach is both short sighted and naive. He has a history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The aim, first and foremost, is independence for Scotland. There is a lot not to like about how Eurocrats operate but let’s see how we get on within Europe as an independent country before we start voting to get out based on our English experience.
    As to who really runs England, the lord mayor of London or the pig lover, let Pinky and Perky have at it.

  48. galamcennalath says:

    One question every Scot needs to ask themselves!

    DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BE IN A TORY UK OUTSIDE THE EU?

    Vote Stay EU, then Yes Scotland

  49. BrainSJ says:

    Pushing the Scottish viewpoint now could be very effective. As you say, there are specific issues like agriculture and fishing where we get a bad deal. More generally, pushing for more direct ‘regional’ representation will be raising sensitivities at a difficult time. The EU may offer things Dave doesn’t want but we do.

  50. Sharny Dubs says:

    Cameron’s just desperately looking for something to distract everyone from complete mess he has presided over at home and the twitching corps that is “the union”, keep your eyes on the prize x 2 indy!!

  51. I like Jimmy, but he must know that the meejah are only interested in him now when I=s attacking the SNP. He was good on telly during the Govan by election when he bamboozled his Labour opponent by arguing about the Equivalent whereby the host country must march Euro grants pound for pound and Westminster shafted us, as always, even spending money earmarked for Strathclyde roads.

    Ireland cashed in on Euro goodwill, creating the much scoffed Celtic Tiger. At least Ireland had a boom whist all we ever get us busts and busts.

    Without whingeing Engerland talking us down the rest of the Euro countries are sure to be more sympathetic to an Independent Scotland

  52. Flower of Scotland says:

    I agree D D.

    I have watched Jim Sillars antics since he was one of those who set up the SLP ( Scottish Labour Party), a breakaway party from the UK Labour Party, in 1976. They lost their seats and the SLP was disbanded.

    He joined the SNP. He has always been a user. SLAB to the core!

  53. crisiscult says:

    perfect time for this article i.e. early in the campaign.

    It reminds me of those conversations you would have with people prior to 2014 indy ref: those people who claimed they were for indy but weren’t happy with currency union, or keeping the queen, or staying in EU. Those were all valid ambitions, but would you really vote no as a kind of ‘all or nothing’ type approach?

    Or the supposed international socialists who would basically say I’m for international socialism, so I’m going to vote no (i.e. there’s much more chance of international socialism if we vote to continue to be ruled by Westminster – eh, sure there is pal; it’ll happen any day if we don’t blow it by separating).

  54. Are the Yoons,Scottish Cringe and miserable hacks waiting to see which side their cult leader `JK` is going to support?

  55. I had a yes voter this morning who was going to vote no in
    the EU referendum because he thought that would trigger a second independence referendum.

    I had to inform him that the only way indyref2 would be triggered is if Scotland voted to remain in the EU while England voted to leave.

  56. orri says:

    This is where Boris might have been better sitting on the fence and saying he was going to look over Cameron’s deal and decide after that. Or he was going to take the stance of the ordinary punter on the street and remain to be convinced. Just as we know that prior to that deal the SNP stance was remaining in the EU was in Scotland’s best interest. However we don’t yet know if we’re about to be sold down the river again for the greater good of the UK. As has been said before, rights to fish in our waters was sold to the EU.

    As things stand at the moment I’m not interested in voting to remain in the EU simply because it might lead to a second referendum. I’ll probably vote to stay in because it’s the right thing to do.

    As has been said if the UK as a whole does vote to leave and Scotland to stay in it’s a question of how fast we can arrange a second referendum and disentangle our pensions from the rUK. God knows what’ll happen to Sterling. Certainly the underlying plan might be to trigger a devaluation in order to collapse any debt to levels that can be dealt with. Would probably ruin ordinary punters lives but the government and bankers would survive.

  57. Kenny says:

    I am convinced that an independent Scotland would be in a VERY good negotiation position to join the EU. I am pro-European, but I also agree with the criticism of the EU currently coming from the left (not from the right).

    However, I think the whole EU-membership topic is a bit like the monarchy or NATO membership. We should not let it sap our energy and concentrate on fighting for independence above all (while using the arguments of the LEAVE camps to show up the BT side, who are largely REMAINers).

    Let it be like NATO membership. Let us worry about EU membership when we are independent and then we can hold our own debate and look at the arguments from the point of view of the only thing that should matter. And that is: is EU membership good or bad for THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND?

  58. orri says:

    The photo does serve as a reminder that we’re approaching the 50 year anniversary of Britain beating half of Germany. be interesting to see what play is made of that in the referendum.

  59. Swami Backverandah says:

    @DougDaniel
    OK. I get ya.
    Ta.

  60. Breeks says:

    I’m curious as to what extent EU membership represents a contract, and what withdrawing from that contract unilaterally might actually cost in pounds shillings and pence.

    I’m also curious at the link being drawn between the UK exiting Europe and this prompting a second Indyref in Scotland. Forgive my ignorance, is that hopeful conjecture? Or is it supported by some constitutional byelaw or historical precedent? No criticism or subtext intended, it’s a flat out question.

    I very much fear that we are all passengers in this EU referendum, about to have our senses assaulted with Brexit propoganda, which is similar if not identical to the UKIP media agenda which saw Scotland embarrassed to return a UKIP MEP.

    I really wish to be more positive, but I am struggling. What is to stop Europe heaving a sigh of relief to be seeing the back of Les Roastbeefs, and with the best will in the world, treating any Scots who want to stay in Europe as unfortunate “stateless” refugees not so very different from the current influx from war torn Middle East? That might be a bit graphic for the breakfast table, and our status as Europeans might help us, but exiting Europe is going to be a disaster if it happens. As Scottish individuals, if the UK exits Europe, our European aspirations might very well lie closer to seeking political asylum in Europe rather than continuity of our nominal membership.
    Brexit might well further our chances of Independence, but that is a million miles away from Brexit being a good thing per say.

  61. Proud Cybernat says:

    Of course, if all of this came to pass (1. Brexit, 2. SCOOT) then it would effectively be Scotland cocking two fingers to the UK and joining the big club with a seat at the big table.

    “But what currency will you use cos we’ll no’ allow yaes tae use oor poond?”

    “Eff off! We’ll use the EURO.”

  62. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bob Mack says: 22 February, 2016 at 12:34 pm:

    ” … Remember though, if Cameron gets his way then decisions about Scotland sovereignty will be the remit of The Supreme Court in London, with POSSIBLE EU Court of Appeal. I emphasise possible. …”

    That’s it in a nutshell, Bob Mack.

    I will never forget, for a moment, the words of the laughably titled, “Secretary of State for Scotland”, who gave us his interpretation of the UK government commissioned paper on the UK’s constitution :-

    “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

    His problem is that there is absolutely nothing in writing anywhere that legally backs up his, and the UK Government’s, claims.

    The exact opposite is in fact the truth. I have at last found my reference to the Scottish Act of Union, Note:-

    The original Treaty text is almost exactly that of the Act of Union as it was very quickly accepted and passed by both Parliaments.

    http://www.rahbarnes.co.uk/Union/UnionWithEnglandAct.php

    Article III of the Treaty and Act of Union states –

    III. THAT the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled The Parliament of Great Britain.

    *
    There isn’t a single instance, anywhere in the treaty or acts of Union, of the words country or countries. The Treaty and Acts clearly are an agreement between two Kingdoms and neither of them is designated as other than equally sovereign.

    Go read it yourself and see if I’m wrong :-

    http://www.rahbarnes.co.uk/Union/index.php

    From that point onward can anyone show where there is written evidence that England became the United Kingdom and had sovereignty over Scots or Scotland?

    The reality is that Westminster has always just made that assumption and that was true even before the Scottish/English wars of independence. In fact it was the cause of those wars.

  63. mike cassidy says:

    Orri 1.17

    Never thought of the 1966 anniversary.

    And if that keeps coming up in the referendum campaign, then surely the tank commander can kiss goodbye to her 2nd place.(my 12.42)

  64. Paul Eunson says:

    So in the event of Scotland voting ‘stay’ only to be dragged out by a rUK ‘leave’ vote, is there a route whereby Scotland gets special dispensation to continue our own membership until such time after an Indyref #2?

  65. bobajock says:

    Anyone who fails to understand. Independence gets us what we want, a chance to decide on everything. Its not about getting the SNP ‘forever’, its about what comes after.

    Me – out of EU, out of NATO, out of the UK and out with its nukes/wars. In it for Scotland.

    You may consider me insane.

  66. Robert Louis says:

    No matter how you feel about the EU (which is NOT Europe, btw), the only sane way to vote if you want to achieve Scottish independence, is to stay in the EU.

    There is anther point to this. Imagine the scenario, of the UK going ahead and leaving the EU, and Scotland dragged out too (because Scots voted to do so), can you even imagine what Westminster rule of Scotland would be like? Scary. It is partly the EU which keeps a check on the rabid right wingers of Westminster (which is why they hate the EU).

    For me, I will vote to stay. Besides, I actually think, for all its faults, the EU has been good for ALL of Europe (mibbes not so for Greece).

    Just not sure what Sillars is even thinking about.

  67. Pauld says:

    I am a Scot living in England. I believe in an Independent Scotland within the EU. My initial thoughts were vote leave, so as to speed along indyref2. Then my conscience grabbed me when I seen that Priti Patel,IDS, Chris Grayling etc picture for the leave side. I didn’t think I could be on the same side as that lot. Now I think I will have to bite the bullet, and live with the disgrace of voting to leave. In the hope Indy supporters in England do the same to push indyref2.

  68. Camz says:

    Whatever the result, if the numbers end up with England blaming Scotland for said result, also check London’s voting. With London being 1.6 times more populated than Scotland, and being fairly pro-stay, it’s a possibility that they too ‘cheat the Leave voters’.

    I doubt London will be blamed though…

  69. DerekM says:

    Yes Douglas the EU question is for another day,one where we are sending a full delegation to take the missing chair that is the voice of our people and start negotiating properly with them as an equal partner and independent nation, i am all for giving them a chance they are still a young union and could maybe learn something from Scotland`s experiences of union,the other lot well they have had their chances.

    And thats not even looking at the EU`s perspective on this what are their thought on finally being able to get access to one of the richest countries in Europe without having to go through London ,its got to be tempting for them maybe they are having second thoughts about not backing us up,but hey we forgive you,want to try it again ?

  70. Swami Backverandah says:

    @orri
    “God knows what’ll happen to Sterling. Certainly the underlying plan might be to trigger a devaluation in order to collapse any debt to levels that can be dealt with.”
    This is an interesting point, but without getting into the micro-economics of it, a broader point can be made.
    Although most of the arguments to date for in/out seem to be made around immigration – as this most certainly is the emotional card in the deck – the financial on can also be played.

    A lot of money has been invested in the UK position in the EU. Leaving would also cost a bomb. So the electorate can be asked, how prepared are you to walk away from that investment, pay the massive lawyers’fees to wind up the deal, and cut your losses?
    Or are you more prepared to try to salvage some sort of asset worth by remaining and at least maintain some control over its value.

    That’s a powerful argument for the financially minded, even if it results in dividends mainly to the one percenters. The hip-pocket argument.

  71. Baheid says:

    I will be voting to stay in the EU, once we get independence we can decide for ourselves.

  72. Stellafella says:

    the likely choice is Scotland votes remain ad all UK votes remain vs Scotand votes yes remain and all UK votes leave. In this instance we can have some bearing onthe result. Ithink the most likely trigger for a 2nd referendum s is UK ext against Scotland’ wiland i think i’s he most likely one we culd win albeit frught with danger.Any 2nd referendum is dangerous though. So if we it’s a knife edgebetween Scotland emain and all K in balance between rmain and leave I might vote leave to ensure that UK as a whole leaves and thus trggers the referendum How will I know if we’e i such a situation.I’ll work it out is the answer. The same way I know when and where to vote green on list cos I’m a stellafella. Stellafella.

  73. @Almannysbunnet

    What has Pinky and Perky done to be associated with Cameron and Johnson?

    While I voted no in the referendum in 1975 to remaining in the Common Market and am ambivalent about the EU.

    And as much as I would like to give Cameron a real bloody nose, I will however reluctantly vote to stay in, for there is no way I am prepared to give any succour to the Farages’, Galloways’, IDSs’ or any of those other right wing nutters.

  74. @orri

    There is also Her glorious majesties 90th birthday celebrations in June,

    also there is the Euro Championships,where Englandshire might well be playing Turkey on 25th June in the last 16,

    the English separatists will be in a hot blooded frenzy of BBC concocted Greatest Empire lies,

    Englandshire staying in the Euro`s till the last 16 could be the % swing that drags all of us out of EU.

  75. gus1940 says:

    Like several of those commenting above I have always had my doubts re Sillars, his motives and his jumping from party to party.

    I just wish that he and Gordon Wilson would STFU and stop rocking the independence boat (i.e. if they sincerely believe in Independence).

  76. JLT says:

    Bang on the money, Doug.

    It’s exactly what I said in my posts yesterday. Scotland will look at the economic argument and reject the ‘Out’ camps case for a ‘leap in the dark’.

    For England, the likes of Cameron will try to keep the argument on the economic case, but papers like the Mail, along with a ton of TV coverage for Farage, the economic argument will be overtaken by the issue of immigration. And pictures of Calais each night on TV will only fuel that issue.

    Cameron and Co will have one helluva fight on their hands.

  77. call me dave says:

    Oor Wullie’s got nae pals…but looks cheery as always.

    Rennie calls for parties to unite in EU vote campaign

    https://archive.is/AbDx0

    PS:
    A guy in the cafe says to me this morning
    “Ye’ve just to look at wha’s in their team and ask yersel whit”!

    IDS, Galloway, Farage, Osborne and Boris…I nodded!

    PPS:
    I see Mones put her foot in a man hole!

    🙂

  78. Marie Clark says:

    Well said Douglas. Funnily enough, I was having the same conversation with my husband ower a bowl of soup today. We both felt that this wasn’t to do with Scotland, really just the Tories fighting amongst themselves. Anyway, it’s going to be interesting to see how it pans out.

    I’m one of the undecided on Europe, it still sticks in the craw the way that they dealt with Greece. Have to give it some serious thought. Probably hold the nose and vote stay.

  79. FatCandy says:

    I’m convinced Sillars says these things to serve his own ends. What’re the odds he’s going to become a BBC/STV pundit now?

    Those comments he made before the IndyRef about “retribution” were totally random and he must’ve know how they would be construed by the Unionist media. Shocking.

  80. Clive Scott says:

    Vote IN and hope our beloved neighbours vote narrowly OUT only to be overturned by those nasty Scots. The frothing bile from the English MSM will be wondrous to behold. SNP x 2 in May.

  81. tartanfever says:

    So I’m thinking of voting to leave the EU over issues such as TTIP, which will see huge chunks taken out of democratic legislation in favour of multi national corporations. Phillipa Whitford also mentioned TTIP constantly as being the killer of a public health system whilst campaigning in the independence referendum.

    You’re now suggesting that I ignore all that and vote to remain in the EU.

    What happens if we all vote to remain (all constituent parts of the UK) and in the next two years we see a TTIP agreement signed within Europe that will do exactly what I fear – more deregulation, more public to private divestment and a real threat to the existence of the NHS both sides of the border ?

    The TPP, the equivalent trade agreement has just been signed between the USA and numerous Pacific rim countries, including NZ and Aus and will see the movement of high paid American jobs to the relative low cost economies of the likes of Vietnam. It’s nothing more than economic slavery. Frankly thats something that I wouldn’t entertain on any level.

  82. Meindevon says:

    Can’t disagree with any of that.

    Would only query if rUK (England) would really help ‘pack our bags’ if we kept them in. Surely their MPs will know that they still need Scotland’s revenue to keep them afloat in or out of the EU.

    Anyway, it leaves folk like me here in England with a dilemma. I’m inclined to vote to stay in but feel a leave vote from England would help Scottish independence. Any thoughts?

  83. scunner says:

    We watched Jim Sillars on the BBC yesterday and debated whether he had thought things through properly.

    We never believed the Better Together mantra that Scotland would be booted out of the EU in the event of a Yes. There’s no precedent and having discussed the economic pros & cons for the rest of the EU at length we concluded it was a bluff.

    So when Jim came out with this guff about Scotland being told to “get stuffed” – so we should do the same back – we found it hard to believe he took the BT bluff at face value. Just doesn’t make sense – is he a hothead or losing his faculties?

    The other conclusion was the BBC were simply attempting to stoke division in the independence camp by giving this “big player” the oxygen of publicity for Brexit. In common with most of you on here, I can no longer watch any BBC news article without rating it on my personal “Bias Meter”.

  84. desimond says:

    Jim Sillars…always available…come right in…what do you need…nae borra!

  85. crisiscult says:

    @tartanfever
    I may be wrong but didn’t individual states have the opportunity to opt certain industries out of TTIP and many did, but UK didn’t take that option?

    I have my reservations about EU but in a battle of right wing ideology, I think UK governments are well in the lead compared to most other EU states and the EU as a whole.

  86. Greannach says:

    Well done on covering so many points so succinctly. I totally agree. I’m not a massive EU fan (especially with TTIP on the horizon), but anyone wanting independence for Scotland would have to be crazy to vote to leave the EU.

  87. david says:

    Ewen @12:14

    To doubt Jim Sillars commitment to Indy shows a level of stupidity I have not seen on this site save for a few occasions. You sir get the prize of stupidity for today. Bravo, felicitations!

  88. HandandShrimp says:

    I think Jim is committed to independence and is not an agent of dismay but he is a fully paid up member of the awkward squad and always has been. His position on the EU is pretty much the line the Trades Unions took back in the 70s when Heath took us in.

    I am neither pro or anti the EU. I think on balance I will vote in and if it is an out vote and it triggers Indy2 and subsequently the EU doesn’t let an independent Scotland in (unlikely I think but you never know) then I won’t much care.

    That is about as sophisticated my strategy is going to get on this. As to the date, it is already obvious that UK wide EU rhetoric and Project Fear is going to swamp the air waves and the Holyrood and other elections are going to be largely relegated to page 11. I think the people with most to lose on that are the Unionist Parties.

    Hell mend them.

  89. Dan Huil says:

    @ meindevon

    Your choice, of course, but I’d prefer it if you voted Leave. Thanks.

  90. Robert Louis says:

    Tartan Fever at 146pm,

    Do you seriously belive that the Tory Government would not implmement an equivalent (or worse) of TTIP, if outside the EU?

    Seriously, leaving the EU would not save anybody since the Tory Government would then have the freedom to implement its own more aggressive version, unhindered by more reasonable voices within the EU.

  91. Anagach says:

    I think overall the EU is a good deal.

    I do not think that the Union run from Westminster is a good deal at all, nowhere close.

    There are many obvious reasons for both positions.

  92. Onwards says:

    I like Jim Sillars, and don’t buy any of this nonsense about him being a plant or anything. He genuinely wants independence, but as said here, he doesn’t seem offer much in the way of pragmatism. Even if your vision is a ‘genuinely’ independent socialist republic, we are never going to make a sudden leap without splitting the vote too much.

    Tactical thinking also has to apply with the EU issue.
    The chances of Scotland deciding the result is tiny. It would have to be almost 50/50 elsewhere for a Scottish pro-EU majority to make the difference. If we are going out, realistically it won’t be up to us.

    So regardless of the timing of a referendum after Brexit, or what the EU position will be then in changed circumstances, if Scotland has voted to stay that is a massive argument to back up the #1 reason for independence – the right to decide our own future as a nation.

    And I don’t buy the argument about ‘swapping London for Brussels’ at all. The difference is that the EU is an association of real nation states voluntarily pooling some sovereignty to enable a huge single market with common standards.

    That’s a far better union than the position Scotland has within the UK with limited devolution. If the UK was like a smaller version of the EU, comprised of real nation states, then most people would be fine with that.

  93. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ll be voting with my head and not my heart. First things first, we can deal with trade details from a much more potent position, once we have the powers of a normal independent democracy that negotiates for itself.

    Does that sound selfish?

    “Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow” – Lord Palmerston. 🙂

  94. Robert Peffers says:

    @Paul Eunson says: 22 February, 2016 at 1:25 pm

    “So in the event of Scotland voting ‘stay’ only to be dragged out by a rUK ‘leave’ vote, is there a route whereby Scotland gets special dispensation to continue our own membership until such time after an Indyref #2?

    There is one very large problem for the UK government in attempting to drag Scotland, Wales or N.Ireland out of the EU against their will.

    It is EU rules, or rather lack of them.

    There are no EU Rules that can throw out any individual EU Citizen against their will. When you become an EU citizen you have gain the protection of EU citizenship.

    Even for an EU member country to leave takes years and has to be by the will of the member country’s citizens. They must vote in majority to leave.

    Now consider this – the member state in this instance is called, “The United Kingdom”, it is not thus a country but a bipartite United Kingdom. Even as a Kingdom it has two parts and either could tie up the UK’s leaving through the courts for years on those grounds alone.

    Then the UK also contains four countries and they too could tie up the parting of the ways for years.

    It would seem that, with the right legal process, the whole UK leaving the EU as a single entity could be a nightmare for the Establishment in London.

    As I point out up-thread, there isn’t a single mention of the words country or countries in the entire Treaty of Union. It thus remains exactly what it’s title calls it – A United Kingdom.

    It is not a unified country but at best only a political state or perhaps a bipartite Kingdom. In fact it is both a state and a kingdom but, as it is a bipartite agreement between two equally sovereign partners, one partner can divorce the other if they do not both agree.

    Thing is the Establishment has no written evidence that Westminster, as a unit, is in fact sovereign over either England or Scotland but the Treaty of Union itself proves they are a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms. All bipartite unions can legally be ended by either partner. Much like a divorce for a marriage in fact.

    Westminster makes a lot of claims they have got away with for hundreds of years simply because their claims have never been challenged.

  95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “To doubt Jim Sillars commitment to Indy”

    Absolutely nobody did that, of course. His strategic judgement was questioned, not his commitment or sincerity.

  96. Colin Dunn says:

    “In that situation, Scotland leaving a UK that was already outside the EU would present serious difficulties for the Yes camp when it came to Indyref 2.”

    Except that when Greenland decided to exit the EU it took them 7 years for the process. If rUK votes to exit and Scotland votes to stay, we can expect several years of dawning realisation by No voters that Scotland must have indy sooner rather than later to avoid the problem you mention. By about 2021 in fact 😉

  97. heedtracker says:

    When he came out with this, right at the height of BBC Project Fear terrorising everyone Sept 2014, I went right off him. And look how the Britnats piled in. Very dodgy.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29181989

    If Scots vote Brexit, they get nothing but lose more than they probably know, because of BBC propaganda.

  98. Doug Daniel says:

    tartanfever: “You’re now suggesting that I ignore all that and vote to remain in the EU.”

    I’m suggesting that we all keep our eyes on the bigger prize and treat this as the sideshow that it is.

    In regards to TTIP, there are two things to bear in mind:
    1. Its most enthusiastic supporters are the Tories (German and French governments are putting up much more of a fight than the UK government, who would sign us up to whatever the US wants)
    2. It’s those very same EU regulations that TTIP seeks to get rid of which make Tories and Kippers want to get out of the EU in the first place

    Tories and Kippers want us to make our own trade agreements with countries like the US. Imagine TTIP on steroids, and that’s what the UK government would sign us up to. Holiday pay, maximum working hours – Tories are desperate to get rid of these things, which they can only do outside the EU.

    If you vote Leave because of TTIP, you’ll end up being saddled with something even worse, and you’ll find out what it feels like to be a shipyard worker who voted No in 2014 because they were worried they’d lose their job.

  99. Ray says:

    I could only read down to the first image, then I was sick. Sorry Doug.

  100. Clapper57 says:

    Part of EU or ruled by an unrestricted Westminster with total powers should we leave EU.

    Let’s not forget who some of those are in ‘Out’ camp .

    Michael Gove who seeks to scrap the Human Rights act.

    IDS , he who is devoid of human compassion , who has subjected inhumane changes to the welfare system that has resulted in those most in need being resigned to intolerable levels of poverty.

    Priti Patel who insist Devolution should be used to make “Scotland pay for itself”. And who thought Independence debate was “great opportunity to slash spending in Scotland”.

    Nigel farrage who wants the Barnett formula scrapped and believes the English are being ignored in favour of pandering to Scots who he feels the English “throw money at”.

    George Galloway , jump on any bandwagon chancer , a vocal ‘No’ to Indy who at the same time was very vocal that a ‘Yes’ to Indy would result in Sotland not being allowed to be in EU , which at the time he obviously thought was a crucial and positive point to Scotland remaining part of UK, but it would seem he now thinks the same EU is now a hindrance to UK. Make your mind up George !

    Chris Grayling who defended the ‘merits’ of EVEL and who tried to rush this ill conceived plan through , without proper discussion and scrutiny , in HOC . In fact the haste for EVEL was astounding considering the snail pace they move re more powers , as promised , for Scotland post Indy referendum.

    So given the above it does make you wonder if there were no EU restraints what kind of laws an policies would some of these people want to impose . And would you trust being a part of a UK outwith EU with this shower of rogues.

    Do you see any benefits to leaving EU for Scotland when the above people clearly have no interest in fighting for Scots interests in their own ‘Better Together’ country never mind within Europe.

    I will vote to stay in EU as the alternative will NOT be beneficial to Scotland , in fact I envisage it being extremely detrimental for Scotland should the balance of power be solely with WM.

    I would not hazard to guess whether an ‘Out’ vote would result in Scots wanting a second Indy Ref however I do think it would be another , perhaps significant , nail in the Better Together coffin.

  101. Jules says:

    There is, actually a scenario in which voting ‘Leave’ would be rational for a Yesser:

    – if the Remain majority in Scotland is entirely secure, and
    – if the UK-wide polls are very tight.

    In those circumstances, a Yesser who either prefers to
    leave the EU, or who thinks the ‘Scotland dragged out against it’s will’ scenario boots Scottish Indy, would rationally vote ‘Leave’.

    Doing so wouldn’t affect the Scottish Remain majority, but might help swing the UK vote towards Leave.

    You’re welcome..! 😉

  102. gazk says:

    Lots of us seem to think the EU are somehow protecting us from the excesses of rabid Tories. They’re not.

    IMO England will vote to stay. The stakes are too high for them to be allowed to vote otherwise (nudge nudge wink wink). So the best strategic decision is for Scotland to vote leave.

    Even if England vote leave as well the decoupling from the EU will be so complicated there will be plenty of scope for material disagreements between ourselves and rUK enabling indyref 2.

  103. I don’t think Jim Sillars thinks things through any more. I remember during the indy ref campaign he would say stuff and you would be thinking don’t say that the media and Better Together will just use it as a big stick to hit everybody on the yes side with. Doesn’t look like much has changed.

  104. bjsalba says:

    If anyone thinks that coming out of the EU will stop us from being forced into TTIP, think again.

    From the start Cameron has from the start wanted it with all his might. In 2014 at the G20 summit, this:

    Britain’s Prime Minister has pledged to fire “rocket boosters” under a controversial new EU-US trade deal.

    Vote out and we are likely to find ourselves the 51st State in all but name.

  105. Clapper57 says:

    “I would not hazard to guess whether an ‘Out’ vote would result in Scots wanting a second Indy Ref however I do think it would be another , perhaps significant , nail in the Better Together coffin”.

    The scenario I make is obvs if majority England vote ‘Out’ and majority Scotland ‘In’.

  106. Gary F says:

    Listen to the arguments, find out what you need to find out to make an informed decision and then vote what you think is right for you, your family and the country going forward.

    If you want to leave the EU then vote to leave. If you want to remain then vote to remain.

    God knows why we need to complicate such a simple democratic process.

  107. galamcennalath says:

    Doug Daniel says:

    Imagine TTIP on steroids

    Exactly. A Tory UK outside the EU would be Hell for ordinary folks. And the paradox is, polls suggest ordinary people will vote out because of a perceived immigration problem.

  108. Inverclyder says:

    Scot Finlayson @1:40pm

    You’re forgetting these..

    Capability Brown 300th anniversary
    400th anniversary of William Shakespeare’s death
    350th anniversary of the Great Fire of London
    250th anniversary of The Old Vic, Bristol
    200th anniversary of Charlotte Bronte’s birth
    150th anniversary of the birth of author Beatrix Potter
    100th anniversary of Roald Dahl’s birth
    950th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings

    And also a new TV show about Churchill.

    Get your Union Joke flags at the ready and shout Hurrah!

  109. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Would the “Scotland being dragged out of the EU by rUK against her will” scenario necessarily bring a 2nd IndyRef before 2021?”

    It’s a fair point, but I don’t think leaving would take four years. Could be wrong on that, but I suspect the public down here wouldn’t stand for that.

  110. Dan Huil says:

    @ Jules

    Nope. Because Scotland’s Leave vote will have very little influence on the uk total when England on its own decides to vote Leave. Better to make sure Scotland’s Remain vote is large and therefore the difference between Scotland and England is the greatest possible.

  111. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Just to take yet another angle on it Stuart: What about those of us (such as you and I) who live in England?”

    Well, indeed. It’s a really tricky one for me personally. I’m very, very uncomfortable about TTIP and the way Greece was treated. Had never even considered being in favour of Out before then. And there’s the tactical voting potential, as you say.

    On the other hand, it’s a pretty high-risk gamble, as I really don’t want to live in a UK governed by the Tories for another decade without the EU holding them back even a little bit.

    And then again again, if Scotland becomes independent I’ll almost certainly come home, so would I even have any business voting to condemn the rUK to being outside the EU?

    I’m totally a Don’t Know, but only in the context of living in England.

  112. Jimmy The Pict says:

    One question I want to have answered

    Will there be exit polls.

  113. Dr Jim says:

    Get ready for a series of War films on the Telly
    It was the British spirit wot won it
    One Nation stood alone
    We’ll fight them on the beaches
    Time for some ships going up and down the Thames with flags flying and music playing

    Probably get some dressing up as well Pearly Queens Beefeaters on display, Chelsea Pensioners

    All human life will be on show, Gawd luv a duck

    Bias?….. NAW!!

  114. Bill McDermott says:

    If I hadn’t already done so, I would have turned off from Jim Sillars after his announcement that his first reason for voting ‘out’ was because of Scotland’s treatment by the EU during Indyref 1 viz. what Barroso had to say. That smacks of childishness to me. Barroso was following a completely different agenda in his own interests rather than worrying about little Scotland.

    I like Jim Sillars for his public speaking ability but his analysis is sometimes weird.

  115. Joemcg says:

    Douglas, like other posters have predicted I’m convinced they will not let us see the breakdown region by region or “nation” by nation to prevent any dissent or “rebellion” breaking out. Brittania rules you know.

  116. sensibledave says:

    Luigi 12.53

    … you better watch out Luigi, the “thought police” will be after you soon. Don’t you dare start thinking for yourself and making up your own mind. I see Jim Sillars has quickly passed to becoming a “non person” since he had the temerity to voice an unapproved opinion.

  117. DerekM says:

    Agreed CameronB

    Even though we have been in a bad union its no reason to prejudge the EU union,we have to go and see what its all about first, we get fed nothing but nonsense about it and if its not to our liking well we could negotiate another position,and it would be our choice to make not some other countries.

    But just now its a sideshow to Scotland we have to pull all the indy triggers we come across and if i am not mistaken the EU referendum has a big flashing neon signpost next it with trigger written on it 🙂

  118. Petra says:

    Thanks for the article Stuart. It’s clearly laid out and is no doubt totally in line with most pro-Independence supporters opinions.

    Get our Independence, stay in the EU and then if we are unhappy with the way things are going call our own in / out EU Referendum at a later date.

    I just don’t know what to make of Jim Sillars anymore. Sad in a way. He’s going to vote for RISE in May … another wasted vote …. more power to the Unionst elbow …. and advocates as you say voting to leave the EU. It just doesn’t make sense.

    Meanwhile he’s involved in trying to unite Yes parties:

    ”A NEW cross-party group is being set up to unite the Yes movement behind a common plan for independence and win a second referendum in 2021 ……..

    Based on the mothballed Scottish Independence Convention (SIC), the new group is intended to develop a collective, more credible Yes position on currency, taxes and pensions ……

    Jim Sillars: “I think the SNP have to learn a few lessons from the referendum. The SNP has to have a look at its own role and realise that it cannot be the dominant force next time. It has to be a partner along with everyone else.” ……

    McAlpine said SIC’s convener, the actress Elaine C Smith, was now in discussion with Nicola Sturgeon about securing the SNP’s participation in the new group ………. waiting beyond 2021, by which time the SNP government could be “lacklustre”, could see the chance of another referendum “gone for a generation”…….

    Earlier, Sillars told the gathering the campaign for independence had to be strident and permanent, and that if the movement equivocated, support for Yes would flag.’

    I’ve got no problem with Yes parties uniting but if they would stand united first and foremost behind the SNP it wouldn’t become lacklustre and support for Yes wouldn’t flag imo.

    I agree that something has to be done about currency and pensions before the next Indyref but who’s to say that the SNP isn’t working on that right now?

    Jim Sillars says that the SNP can’t be the dominant force next time round and yet it IS the dominant force right now. I don’t see any SSP or RISE politicians sitting in Holyrood now or in the near future.

    Looks as though more and more divisions are being created here, they’re going to publicly discredit the SNP, and reminds of how the Scots have the uncanny knack of shooting themselves in the foot and falling at the last hurdle. Additionally it’ll no doubt keep the SCUM happy.

    P.S I wonder if Jim Sillars would come on here and explain his reasoning behind voting for Brexit?

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendumnews/14291433.New_move_to_unite_Yes_parties_and_push_for_indyref2_in_2021/?ref=rss

  119. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    One thing we have to remember is that Cameron is now going to push for boundary reassignment and reduce the number of seats in Westminster H of C.

    If I remember some time back this was going to give him another ~30 seats, potentially

    The state that Labour will soon be in at Westminster with an internal war breaking out between the two wings because the Tories will be fighting their own internal war to take cameron’s crown. could leave us with Boris at No 10 and another 5 guaranteed years of the Tories on steroids.

    We have to get this one right.

  120. Stellafella says:

    “@ Dan Huil

    Nope. Because Scotland’s Leave vote will have very little influence on the uk total when England on its own decides to vote Leave.”

    Julie’s point was whether individuals in Scotland should vote for Leave rationally to force a referendum when it appears UKis on a knife edge and Scotland is saely remain. Each individual would have the same influence regrdless of where they lived in determining the overall UK vote and drivel abou Scotland’s Leave vote shows you don’t hve a clue what you’re talking about. It’s a perfectly legitimate ost that she made. It wasn’t about the wole of Scotland determining the result which you ludicrously rpresented it as as if the whole of cotland voted leave then we wouldn’t have a safe Scotland remains vote in the first place which was the whole premis of thepost.

  121. Meindevon says:

    That was interesting Mr Peffers.

    I hope the SG are getting the Constitutional experts on it pronto. From what you say the Scots, as EU Citizens cannot be taken out against their will.

    This could put a spanner in the works before it gets going. (Sorry about that spanner reference!)

    Clapper57@ 2.14

    Well put. These are my fears exactly. A Tory UK government for decades possibly, that has no care for anywhere in the UK except London and the SE. And with no EU to reign them in…truly terrifying.

  122. Daisy says:

    Fantastic article Douglas. A really insightful read with excellent analysis.

    I also wrote a blog post with a similar premise if you fancy giving it a read:
    https://daisycollinsblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/cameron-disrespects-scotland/

  123. LesRoches says:

    Interesting article and comments. I agree with the majority of comments, but can I just say my tuppence worth.

    This is not about England, it is about the south east of England and London in particular, why, because that is where the money is.Working England is starved financially as well.

    Immigration is a smokescreen. If any Westminster party was so concerned with restricting access to non Brits, then proper funding and systems would be in place to reduce numbers with the immigration dept. Under the Tories, numbers have shot through the roof. All of this about the City of London and future imposed regulations, nothing else. That is what they fear, hence this discussion arising in the first place.

    I have read a lot of the stuff printed and discussed on what has been happening on this topic, but the money tree being shaken, does get much, proper coverage regarding how we will be really screwed by an unbridled City of London.

  124. David says:

    “I’ve never been 100% convinced of Jim Sillars commitment to independence”. A direct quote. My response was intended for the author of said words (ewen @12:14). Though others have said as much. My point is, he is clearly committed to Indy. We can question his arguements as Doug has done well.

    I thought Jim was used by certain elements of the media during Indy, he was useful for their ends and given airtime to promote these ends. However, he is more committed than most keyboard commentators in respect of Indy and some should remember that before they post. “Engage with the brain Anderson, engage with the brain first” my old boss used to say.

  125. ewen says:

    David@ 1:55
    And I respect your right to give your opinion, sir.
    I also remember Mr Sillars when he was SLAB and no doubt his is a Damascene journey worthy of note. I wish he would keep his gob shut though.

  126. heedtracker says:

    I see Jim Sillars has quickly passed to becoming a “non person” since he had the temerity to voice an unapproved opinion.

    That’s hardly fair, even for you sensibledave. Google “Jim Sillars threatens BP Scottish independence” and get 2500 google hits all from UKOK mainstream media Project Fear attack propaganda

    About 2,690 results (0.57 seconds)
    Search Results
    Scottish independence: Nationalist leader Jim Sillars …
    http://www.independent.co.uk › News › UK › Scottish independence
    12 Sep 2014 – Scottish independence: Nationalist leader Jim Sillars threatens … Mr Sillars threatened that BP’s operations in the North Sea could be …

    Scottish independence: Jim Sillars warns of ‘day of … – BBC
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29181989
    12 Sep 2014 – Jim Sillars accused some of “subverting Scotland’s democratic process” and called for oil firm BP to be nationalised after independence.

    SNP’s Jim Sillars threatens BP with nationalisation | Daily …
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Scotland-face-10-year-economic-slowdown-ind...
    12 Sep 2014 – The First Minister scrambled to reassure companies after SNP grandee Jim Sillars said an independent Scotland would break up or nationalise …

    ‘Day of reckoning’ post-Yes vote, says Jim Sillars – The …
    http://www.scotsman.com/…/day-of-reckoning-post-yes-vote-says-jim-sillars-1...
    12 Sep 2014 – Scottish independence: FORMER SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars has … we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks.

    Veteran nationalist threatens ‘day of reckoning’ – FT.com
    http://www.ft.com › UK
    12 Sep 2014 – SNP elder statesman Jim Sillars (far right) with party leader Alex Salmond at a rally … remarks by a former deputy leader of the Scottish National party threatening …

    BP, John Lewis, B & Q owner Kingfisher, Asda, Next, Lloyds …
    Sillars: scaremongering business leaders will face a day of …
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/…/13179654.Sillars__scaremongering_busines...

    Former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars has attacked “scaremongering” business … Oil giant BP would face nationalisation in an independent Scotland while … there will be a ‘day of reckoning’ for big businesses is not only threatening but also …

    Big business warned of ‘day of reckoning’ if Scots vote Yes …
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk › News › UK News › Scottish Independence
    12 Sep 2014 – Alex Salmond and SNP veteran Jim Sillars together at Team Yes campaign (Demotix) …

    He said BP will have to “learn the meaning of nationalisation” and if it …. Threatening a boycott and to nationalise a multinational is top …

    Scottish independence: Day of ‘celebration’ not ‘reckoning …
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29190302

    13 Sep 2014 – Alex Salmond praises former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars but says … Mr Sillars had said oil giant BP and the banks faced a “day of … Pro-Union figures said the remarks were threatening to firms voicing legitimate concerns.
    Jim Sillars’ threat of a ‘day of reckoning’ exposes the darker…

    blogs.spectator.co.uk/…/jim-sillars-threat-of-a-day-of-reckoning-exposes…

    12 Sep 2014 – Sillars is a former SNP deputy leader but now not part of the apparatus- so he … We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors. ….. of either calling them liars or threatening them seems to be working.
    Ex-SNP Deputy Vows To Nationalise Firms Worried About …

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/…/scottish-independence-jim-sillars-nationalis...

    12 Sep 2014 – Companies worried about Scottish independence like oil giant BP will be … Jim Sillars said that John Lewis department stores could be …

    That’s just page one of a vagueish search.

    On and on it UKOK google goes sensibledave. Why Sillars came out with this ridiculously damaging thing, to paraphrase what the author of this post calls, someone with Jim Sillars’ political experience should be so naive about the tactics surrounding the Scottish referendum, is anyone’s guess.

    Maybe he’ll tell us one day.

  127. Dan Huil says:

    @ stellafella

    Eh?

  128. Thepnr says:

    For anyone concerned that the votes in Scotland will be lumped into one big pot so as no one knows precisely how the vote was broken down in different areas.

    That according to the Guardian from 2 days ago will not be the case.

    Counting will occur overnight as in a general election, and a declaration will be made in Manchester town hall after votes have been collated from 12 different regional collation centres.

    Results will be declared as soon as they are known by the 382 local counting officers. There are 380 council areas in Great Britain plus one area for Northern Ireland and one for Gibraltar. Regional and national running totals will be available.

    https://archive.is/bSZ7Z

  129. David says:

    I hear you Ewen (“I wish he would keep his gob shut though”). That is why I mentioned the media, I thought on several occasions that I wished he had shut up a bit.

    Jim is not someone I go to for keenly devined perspective and/or best strategy advice. I just think it obvious he has been very committed and therefore untils he says otherwise I would give him the benefit of the doubt. Knocking out quotes without substance can dictate the way peeps interpret your musings. I just believe a statement with no qualification such as yours does a disservice to the whole arguement.

  130. ewen says:

    David@2:48
    I have been for independence longer than Jim Sillars and have done my bit when being an SNP supporter was seen as a joke and required a hard skin and commitment.
    I reserve my right to give my opinion and don’t you doubt my commitment.

  131. De Valera says:

    Excellent article sir, if Rev Stu is ever unable to run the site due to a surfeit of blood sugar, then it’s in capable hands.

    You have summed up my thoughts on this subject, although much more eloquently and thoughtfully of course. It shows how much we are valued in this “family of nations”.

    Finally, imagine hanging around with an extremist tub thumping numpty like that. I thought more of Nigel Farage.

  132. David says:

    You do and I didn’t Ewen. That would be the polar opposite of what I intended. For example If you came out with so-called ‘off-message’ musings re -indy, I wouldn’t doubt your commitment to Indy. I may disagree as Doug has done with Jim Sillars. However, I wouldn’t come out with ‘that Ewen, eh wiz never sure o’ his indy credentials, aye he talked the talk bit whit aboot ah that stuff he’s been saying eh? Whit kin eh mak o’ thon?’

    Wishing you a good day!

  133. gerry says:

    Lost all respect for Jim Sillars the week before the vote when he started mouthing off about renationalising industry. More distance he is kept at the better. He has no control, and no clue.

  134. schrodingers cat says:

    ” a second Scottish vote amid the chaos of leaving the EU could be disastrous,”

    polls show Scotland will overwhelming vote to stay in. not worth considering other senarios.

    the 55% ensured that our future is decided elsewhere, the EU ref isn’t our bag

    if England votes to leave, will there be chaos? a run on the pound is a possibility, indeed it is happening today.
    but will businesses really come crashing down?

    this is the only point worth discussing since it will be the background upon which indyref2 will be fought.

    the fear of financial collapse may be more real than any actual collapse, the longer we wait after june 23rd for indyref2, the greater the risk that the 55% will become accustomed to leaving the eu and vote no again in indyref2

    indyref2 needs to capitalise on the fear of financial collapse, real or imagined, virtual or actual,

    September 18th 2016 is a real option now, even if you believe that any impending financial collapse is only an imagined fear.

    the next opportunity will be 2017, after the may council elections. if there is a virtual collapse, eg a run on the pound, waiting till then, could be a better option, but it is a risk for indyref2 if it doesn’t happen

  135. Fred says:

    This is a superb article, time for auld buggers like Jim Sillars & Gordon Wilson etc’ to take a back seat & away & play bools. Leave it tae the young yins, they’re the future, it’s their Scotland!

    PS, Jim Fairlie was talking similar mince in today’s Nash.

  136. Jack Murphy says:

    The Commons Chamber is overflowing—-David Cameron must be about to speak I think.

    http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0efcd00b-79dd-4536-8eef-cfe29ccb6dab

  137. Fred says:

    Just love this from Alan Rioch’s article in Friday’s Nash, by Scotland’s first woman poet published, Elizabeth Melville, Lady Culross, in 1603.

    “Though tyrants threat, though Lyons rage and rore, Defy them all and feare not to win out!”

  138. tony O'neill says:

    Here is my prediction for what its worth,i predict that the eu referendum in Scotland will be rigged in favour of no and here’s why.Westminsters unionist elite has too much to lose if we vote to stay and they vote leave,they certainly don’t want to give us another indy ref do they??. Many other people myself included think they rigged the last one and I suspect they would do it again for their own political gain.

  139. Dr Jim says:

    Scottish Widows announces it’s upping sticks and moving to Londinium thus scuppering any chance of a financial centre in Edinburgh should Scotland decide to be Independent

    Remember if we voted NO it would never happen and we’d all be safe as wee houses (They said)

    Is somebody going to tell me the Tories didn’t plan this it’s just a coincidence

    Project Confusion in England, Project Fear and doom back on
    in Scotland

    Is it not about time we gave the lot of them a project kick up the Arse

    See aw this “W’ell dae whitever we waant tae youse an yees kin dae nuthin back ya wee scroats”

    It beginning to irritate a tad

  140. Big Jock says:

    Being Scotland in the UK right now. Is like being in a gang at school,where the leaders do what they want and the lackies do what the leaders tell them to do.

    Then there are the quiet ones who wonder why they are still in the gang, as everybody else in the gang ignores them. The gang becomes more and more remote and irrelevent to the quiet ones. Eventually they just walk away and nobody even blinks an eye.

    Scotland has emotionally left the UK already we just need to tie up the physical bonds.

  141. Dr Jim says:

    Leave Old Jim Sillars alone naebdy’s paying attention tae him
    and it’s aw he’s got #Gotta Grumble

  142. Proud Cybernat says:

    The EU ref is important to Scotland if, for no other reason, than it will allow us a great opportunity to demonstrate, with a multitude of examples, to many of the IndyRef#1 NO-voters how the Colonial Media in this country operates and that they cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything.

    I think many of these voters wore the blinkers regarding YES complaints about the media during IndyRef#1. They probably knew in their hearts what was going on but it suited them to simply ignore it, turn a blind eye to it because it served their needs.

    It won’t be so easy for these voters to ignore the Colonial Media in this referendum. And it’s odds on that the corrupt Colonial Media will twist and bend facts that will outrage many of them. And when these former NO-voters have their eyes opened to just how corrupt the Colonial Media really is, they won’t ever trust them again. Which will make IndyRef#2 all the easier to win these voters over to the Indy side.

    This is a BIG opportunity folks – let’s use this referendum to make sure the former NO-voters learn just how corrupt the Colonial Media is in this country.

  143. ewen says:

    David. We will just have to differ.
    You have a good one, too.

  144. michael diamond says:

    If scotland vote to leave the eu along with england, then all i can say is “thanks dad for my irish passport, because the westmonster government will make you squeal with pain.and europe wont want to know us.

  145. Dr Ew says:

    Hm. A lot people posting ill-informed and embarrassing drivel about Jim Sillars on here. Makes a change from kicking Patrick Harvie or dissing Cat Boyd, I suppose.

    This “Two legs good, four legs bad!” shit from anyone who deviates one iota from the SNP orthodoxy is pretty galling. Perhaps some folk should bear in mind it’s quite possible we’ll be trying to put together another cross-party Yes campaign to win a second referendum before the year is out. Spiteful, not to say idiotic, remarks about allies in favour of independence isn’t going to help.

  146. Big Jock says:

    New condition diagnosed for an irrational hatred of the SNP, which prevents logical thinking.

    Murielgray Syndrome.

    Even better I went into look at her Twitter and she has blocked me! Yet I have only ever questioned her hatred of the SNP.

  147. CameronB Brodie says:

    tartanfever
    What and leave us at the mercies of rampant Tories unhindered by European socialists? Remember, England has a supine bourgeois and a fragmented proletariat. Did that sound a bit Marxist? Perhaps but that’s not the point. Might it not be better to have a seat at the negation table, if the day ever came that Scotland chose to leave?

    “The two great chemical elements of this blanketing English fog are ‘traditionalism’ and ‘empiricism’: in it, visibility – of any social or historical reality – is always zero … A comprehensive, coagulated conservatism is the result, covering the whole of society with a thick pall of simultaneous Philistinism (towards ideas) and mystagogy (towards institutions), for which England has justly won an international reputation.” – E. P. Thompson

    Re. The EU and the TTIP. This is how the world is being organised. The No vote ensure Scotland would have no say in how it affects Scots. Not the smartest move, IMHO.

  148. orri says:

    Voting No in Scotland in the hopes that the result will still be stay/leave isn’t going to work. All that will happen is the apparent disparity between Scotland and the rUK will be less. Besides which it may even tip the result into a narrow victory for leave in Scotland.

    Again we need to see what Cameron has managed to get before we feel safe from TTIP. Perhaps he’s got special permission for the UK to join.

  149. Ian Brotherhood says:

    It would be good to get AuldA’s input on this.

    Where is he these days?

  150. Matt says:

    Don’t assume that Scotland, voting in 2021 to leave a UK that had already left the EU would face a long road back in. Brussels, stung by Westminster’s rejection of its project, might well offer Scotland a quick route back, if for nothing else, then to slap London back in the face for having the cheek to leave them in the first place.

  151. CameronB Brodie says:

    DerekM
    You’re obviously far more tolerant and forgiving than myself, I was only thinking about whether it is better to be in the tent or not. 🙂

  152. carjamtic says:

    The view from the North

    Elvis has already left the building,recently had a to listen to some mates from the north east,(boro,mackems,geordies)ordinary working guys,(no nut jobs)their minds are already made up.

    Totally scunnered with immigration (+labour party)they want out,no debate to be had,no reasoning,no discussion on media etc.

    Just a wee straw poll,if you will, but sobering thoughts.

  153. Nana says:

    Good article Doug Daniel. My own worry is mainly TTIP, the secrecy behind it all is very bad for democracy. Also how they rode roughshod over the Greek people was just nasty.

    But just thinking about the tories unfettered fills me with dread so I will vote to stay in for now.

    Alex Salmond on Cameron’s folly

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/841718/watch-european-policy-sea/

  154. skozra says:

    Great article Douglas, very well explained. thank you

  155. Dr Jim says:

    We should take account of what other sovereign nations around the world think says David Cameron

    Just not Scotland

  156. yesindyref2 says:

    Agree apart from the 2021 scenario with the UK outside the EU. In that case the EU would make no difference to the YES campaign, and couldn’t be used against it. We’d already be out as you say.

    I had difficulties with this some time ago, but have worked it out this way.

    If there was no Indy movement, or it had very little support and Scotland was firmly stuck in the EU I’d vote leave. I think the UK does a very poor job of getting the best out of the EU, squabbling, blusterng, trying to bully, then getting put in its place by Germany and France, and meekly complying.

    On the other hand small countries will get some surprising concessions because they don’t try to force their will on the rest, and working together, get everything they really want from the EU “behind the scenes”. iScotland would be such as small country in the EU, and since I think we’ll be Independent within 10 years regardless of anything, I will be voting to Remain.

    1). iScotland will be on the council of ministers and get 1 vote the same as the other 27 / 28. That means big member states can need to court (i.e. bribe) smaller member states to get their vote in support.

    2). iScotland will have roughly twice as many MEPs in the European Parliament which again means in conjunction with other small countries, iScotland gets to wield more influence than our size.

    The EU was designed that way to give small countries a chance. So I would want to give iScotland a chance for 5 years, and then hae a confirmatory IN / OUT referendum, similar to the one the UK had in 1975.

  157. Petra says:

    @ Dr Jim says at 3:37 pm ….. ”Scottish Widows announces it’s upping sticks and moving to Londinium thus scuppering any chance of a financial centre in Edinburgh should Scotland decide to be Independent. Remember if we voted NO it would never happen and we’d all be safe as wee houses (They said). Is somebody going to tell me the Tories didn’t plan this it’s just a coincidence. Project Confusion in England, Project Fear and doom back on
    in Scotland. Is it not about time we gave the lot of them a project kick up the Arse. See aw this “W’ell dae whitever we waant tae youse an yees kin dae nuthin back ya wee scroats.” It’s beginning to irritate a tad.”

    Dr Jim there’s another way to look at this. If we manage to get our Independence through Brexit I’d imagine that many English companies would relocate to Scotland and we would get / have our financial centre one way or another.

  158. michael diamond says:

    Agree with fatboab 12.31. As i live in england i ( along with others i know) shall be voting to leave the eu. Were i residing back home in scotland, i would be voting ( for the time being) to remain in the eu.

  159. Clapper57 says:

    Dr Jim says:
    22 February, 2016 at 3:37 pm

    “Scottish Widows announces it’s upping sticks and moving to Londinium thus scuppering any chance of a financial centre in Edinburgh should Scotland decide to be Independent”

    Remember if we voted NO it would never happen and we’d all be safe as wee houses (They said)”

    Yes Dr Jim, and laughingly some yoon in response to tweet by Peatworrier mentioning the statement from Scottish Widows that they would NOT leave Edinburgh if Scots voted ‘No’ in Indy Ref.

    Yoon’s tweet response to Pearworrier :

    “It’s your refusal to accept the ref and continuing to agitate for another which caused this”.

    Yeh Yoon , you got finger on da pulse…minus da feckin beat.

    His stooooopid tweet smells like a typical Yoon’s lone idiotic rationale but , at the same time , sooooo craving some credit for , if he’s really lucky, perhaps instigating another chain reaction Tweet from like minded moronic Yoon Twits on Twitter.

    #RegurgitatingShiteForShite’sSake

    #SaveUsFromYoonBuffoons

  160. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    ” Alex Salmond on Cameron’s folly

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/841718/watch-european-policy-sea/

    Very good. AND, there’s a wee poll at the bottom with some interesting results.

  161. Petra says:

    O/T

    I think this is well worth watching again. The obnoxious Jo Coburn versus George Galloway re. Brexit? on Daily Politics earlier today.

    Thanks for the video Jack (Jack Murphy).

    http://tinyurl.com/jmpjsqa

  162. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2

    Sounds feasible to me dads. Gives an indy Scotland a reasonable period of time to see the lay of the land and assess how favorable/or not independent membership is.

  163. mike cassidy says:

    Douglas Carswell is worried the BBC may be biased!

    And one or two people agree!

    https://twitter.com/DouglasCarswell/status/701757633045393408

  164. Legerwood says:

    I saw Mr Sillars’ interview and was quite taken aback when he said he would vote for leaving the EU because of the way the EU behaved towards Scotland during the indyref. Clearly he had forgotten, as have others, about Mr Junkers speech shortly after he became President of the European Commission and the statement he put out afterwards when the MSM willfully misrepresented his remarks as saying that Scotland would not be allowed into the EU for a number of years.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28311938

    Mr Sillars’ comments/outbursts are not always helpful and are always pounced on by the MSM and given maximum exposure as a way of embarrassing the SNP. Ditto Mr Wilson.

  165. K1 says:

    O/T Jack you put a link up the other day with Nicola’s interview wi Andrew Marr, any chance you or anyone else can re post…ta.

  166. Hood says:

    K1

    this what you are looking for? Hopefully it will appear quickly as normally it is an hour or more before any of my posts appear, hence I don’t usually bother.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb-EHUNQy_A

  167. Not Convinced says:

    The depressingly ironic thing (IMHO) about the way the EU “debate” seems likely to centre on the immigration issue, is that even if the UK does leave the EU we’ll still have an open unpriced border with an EU state! I am referring, of course, to the Common Travel Area that the UK has with the Republic of Ireland.

  168. K1 says:

    Jim Sillar’s comments are always taken out of context, his reasoning is oft times convoluted but is ‘rational’ to him. As others have said ‘they’ use him and his utterings to undermine the SNP’s stance etc. I like others would rather we didn’t get into a personal ‘dig’ culture on here about those who differ in their outlook but nonetheless have Scotland’s best interests at heart. He’s a good man, wi a good heart in a world riven wi spivs wi real threats to our cause. He’s also just as entitled to his opinion on the eu matter too.

    Thanks for this Doug, we have to vote in to get out.

  169. K1 says:

    Thanks Lollysmum 😉

  170. call me dave says:

    Fiscal framework update:

    https://archive.is/tfidw

  171. Ken500 says:

    It’s great watching the Tories tearing themselves to bits.

    £ done against the Euro

  172. yesindyref2 says:

    @Rev and others
    Agree about Greece being treated in a disgusting fashion, if the EU doesn’t reform at an accelerated rate with the impetus Cameron has actually given it (a la carte membership), then it will go its own way, and the euro with it.

    TTIP? Yes, bad, but then it’s just a formalisation of what’s been present underneath anyway from the point of view of the US getting what it wants. For decades in the UK, less so the rest of the EU.

  173. Ken500 says:

    £ down

  174. gerry says:

    Dr EW 348
    “Hm. A lot people posting ill-informed and embarrassing drivel about Jim Sillars on here.”

    No. People noticed how Jim Sillars started stating what Scotland would do after the referendum, a week before it happened and that rang alarm bells with many. Who the feck is Jim Sillars to be telling the scottish people what was happening with their country let alone in advance of their vote. That old sense of entitlement rearing it’s ugly head before we even voted.
    The embarrassing drivel came from Jim’s mouth. You swallow it if you like.

  175. Ken500 says:

    Jim Sillar’s has a grudge against the SNP.

  176. Dr Jim says:

    @ Petra

    Whatever comes out of the mouths of our “Leaders” and their lackeys will always be linked with project fear no matter what they say

    It’s all about control and always will be unless the Yoons see sense and realise they don’t count as much as we don’t count

    Nobody in the history of mankind has ever negotiated self determination or freedom without paying a price and our price and the cost to us is Punishment

    I wrote earlier I’ve never believed Englands desire to control Scotland is all financial though they have benefited greatly from us

    I believe it’s our location to the north for strategic reasons that Westminster fears Scottish Independence and what we might do with it and with whom would we ally ourselves

    Any country in the world would give their arm to have sovereignty and access to that area so the Banks the Financial Institutions can say what they like to me and it means nothing but to the old and the Feart and the Yoons, like Digby Brown “It matters”

    I am in little doubt if the Yookay thought it was a stick on we were going for sure, they would attempt to find a legal way to roll in the military and disestablish our Parliament to try and stop us

    If we do manage to get another Referendum I believe it should be a flash quick one to give Westminster no time to prepare their allies for what I’m sure would be a vicious and terrible onslaught of the worst kind

    On that cheery note ahm away out for bread

  177. nycgype says:

    “Richardinho says:
    22 February, 2016 at 12:54 pm
    Just to take yet another angle on it Stuart: What about those of us (such as you and I) who live in England? I am generally inclined to vote Stay, but I am tempted to vote Leave just to stir things up a bit!”

    Ha, ha, I work in London 3 days a week and will be vigorously lobbying my work colleagues to Vote Leave along with good old Boris…not that I think they should.

  178. K1 says:

    And Hood, thanks! 🙂

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ken500
    Yes, £ down. Good news for Scotland probably, good for tourism, good for manufacturing, good for food and drink exports. Can’t really think of a downside for Scotland apart from people wanting to go abroad on holiday. Which means maybe they’ll stay in Scotland and spend their money, yippee!

  180. Macart says:

    @call me dave

    Whitehall spokeswonk on agreement imminent – “I hope so”. 😀 LOL

  181. Valerie says:

    Good piece, Mr Daniel. Covers how an Indy supporter should think strategically.

    Sterling has already taken a hit, following BoJo coming out as BoGo.
    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-sterling-suffers-biggest-fall-since-2010-after-boris-johnson-backs-brexit-1545217

    The biggest fall since 2010. So the fall wasn’t even as drastic in 2014, and that happened when Yes has a surge. The market’s knew Scotland leaving would hit London’s revenue.

    For those reading, and want to try and keep an open mind, please do some research, just as many of us did prior to the Scottish referendum. I support independence for economic and social reasons.

    If the possibility of independence did not exist for us, I would be hysterical at the thought of Brexit, and being at the mercy of unfettered London rule.

    PLEASE, be open minded, and why would you not, and go to Business for Scotland. Gordon Macintyre-Kemp is an excellent writer, who has many short, sharp pieces on the EU on the site.

    We are so LUCKY to have such a resource as Business for Scotland, sharing such great information.

    Please for those conflicted or against the EU, don’t be close minded, and seek the other side out.

  182. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    Personally, I have had enough of this “bi-partite” treaty as it was always a stitch-up from the get go.

    Let these events unfold and then dissolve/abrogate it.

    Walk away.

    Have had it up to my back teeth with it and its generations of imposed inequality and poverty and – to be frank – cleansing of the population via forcing them to go overseas to make a crust and, hopefully, a difference to folks’s lives and the sum of human endeavor and knowledge but still to be hunted down by the apparatuses of the Anglo-British state; to wit and briefly, their embassies and consular missions, the “British” Council apparatchiks et al networking with the locals to fcuk the Jocks as they did with the Irish and sundry other “separatists” from the Anglo-“British” empire.

    Enough and on our own terms and time-scale.

  183. K1 says:

    Hey I’ve just noticed the wee twitter sidebar on Wings’s pages…when did that happen…crikey **chucks alert reader badge over a hedge**.

  184. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    Scottish Widows – the Unionists are already spinning that as being because of the referendum, uncertainty about a 2nd Ref and Scotland staying in the UK. That has nothing to do with it.

    This has been ongoing since 2009 or before, long before the Indy Ref. It has everything to do with SW being demutualised in 2000 and taken over by Lloyds banking group (LBG). Who own Clerical Medical (CM), Halifax Trust and 5 others. It was a plan to move SW into CM – or vice versa – since 2009, and then rename it as SW, something which is coming up in Court I think, the date of renaming was 31st Dec 2015.

    SW / CM charge high admin charges, but have low returns. SW reinvested much of its funds in the other 7 LBG low performing trusts, probably to give them a boost, and I don’t think it’s been doing very well, I follow financial news and it’s been in it a few times.

    One is when it (and the others I think) listened to Fred Goodwin about RBS and ABN. Whoops. It was going to sue RBS for £400+ million along with the other 7 trusts, but apparently the Treasury leaned on it (they – we – do own bits of Lloyds), so it dropped the case. That’s a rough and ready summary of it all.

    No news of job losses yet that I know of, but on the other hand S&P and Moody’s did warn that Scotland was exposed by 1200% of GDP in the event of Independence and that affected our credit rating, and that it would be better for Scotland if we shed some of our financial sector.

    Well, I don’t think this is the first, and it won’t be the last before Indy Ref 2, so while nobody would want to see job losses, it does have the upsides of reducing our financial exposure, reducing the financial sector GSP relative to the whole of Scotland’s GDP, and hence increasing our credit rating and hence lowering our borrowing rate.

  185. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m in both camps on Jim Sillars. He did do damage just pre-Ref with his nationalisation and punish the big business nonsense, but on the other hand every Movement needs its stirrers and agitators – and even big mouths – and he’s one of them. His views are his own.

  186. Ken500 says:

    Could the Scottish Gov not refuse to have an EU referendum in Scotland? Save a lot of time and money.

    Scotland could stay in. The rest of the UK can do what it wants.

  187. Ken500 says:

    Jim Sillars is unelected. He wants Independence but has a grudge against the SNP.

  188. galamcennalath says:

    P&J POLL: Will EU referendum drive Scotland toward Indy Ref 2?

    Yes (and I’ll vote for independence) 66.43%

    No (and I still support the union) 20.4%

    Yes (and I’ll vote to remain in the Union) 7.04%

    No (but I still want independence) 6.13%

    What I find most interesting is Yes Scotland splits ~1:10 Leave:Stay.

  189. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    “fiscal framework

    https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/701772656882925569

    There may be an element of WM trying to show who is boss and who is in charge. “How dare those uppity Jocks impose timetables on us! The trouble with Jocks is the just don’t know how to hold a begging bowl!”

  190. Malky says:

    Oh dear. Muddled thinking, I fear. Great article – a referendum based on Scotland in/England out would be a perilous affair.

  191. yesindyref2 says:

    OT
    That’s funny, STV News it sounded like “The Treachery Secretary Greg Hands …”

    Quite apt.

  192. Robert Peffers says:

    O/T

    I never thought I’d ever meet one but today I did.

    I met a talking version of the Daily Record. It was unvarnished DR articles spouted loudly to the World at large.

    You couldn’t speak to this guy it went whooshing right over his head. Nothing got through to him and his mantra was word for word Daily Record.

    The guy’s in a wheelchair and spouting all the Daily Record SNP BAD, hate alecsammin, hate nicolasturgeon flying all roads. He said he would chase and SNP canvaser who called at his door and if he had a gun he would shoot them. He is complaining about the poor performance of the SNHS.

    He quotes his own bad experiences at the Kirkcaldy Vic and how it was all the SNP’s fault. He Followed up by quoting cases from the Daily Record. I pointed out the Fife Health Board runs the Vic and the Fife Health Board is heavily membered by the Fife Labour Party, he changed the subject.

    He got on about the poor service of the Local Kelty GP Health Centre, and it was all the SNP’s fault. I pointed out that the Kelty Health Centre was the first Self-financing GP practice in Scotland and the Health Centre built by the Fife Health Board so every penny saved on patient care was a penny more to the practice members. Furthermore. the Health Centre was probably built under the Labour Party’s PPI/PPP system and probably not yet even fully paid up for.

    It really was just like a talking Daily Record. He said that the alecsamiin said Scottish oil was funding Scotland. I said that was strange as the revenues from oil all went to Westminster and Scotland’s funding was via the Block Grant that was not affected by the price of oil.

    It was like some religious fanatic chanting credos and every word of it directly from the Record.

  193. Nana says:

    @galamcennalath

    I’m sure they will be thinking like that. Supreme beings in their own tiny minds.

    Thanks for putting up the P&J poll, I forgot to mention it at 4.15

  194. Les Wilson says:

    Cameron says the UK will peak as one nation, in reply to a question over brexit.
    That is us put in our place then!

    So will Scottish votes be tallied separately, does not seems so, but happy to be corrected.

  195. Personally speaking I will be voting to remain in the EU with some reservations but in any event I think that the vote will be YES to the EU throughout the UK.
    The bigger issue from a pro-Independence standpoint is for the Scottish Government to elicit some form of assurance from the EU as to where that leaves us in the future.
    Many people voted NO in 2014 because they couldn’t get any firm answer about our position vis-a-vis the EU in an independent Scotland.
    I certainly don’t want to strengthen the “Better Together” stonewall for the next referendum – you can be damn sure that the UK Government won’t seek to get anything clarified.

  196. Bill Steele says:

    Will Westminster allow the votes of each country to be counted separately? If they don’t and insist that all the ballots be sent to London, or some other English city, to be counted, how will we know how Scotland voted. Would exit polls carry any weight? I doubt it.

    Could the Scottish government insist on having the Scottish vote counted separately, and even overrule Westminster on this? If yes, on what grounds?

  197. galamcennalath says:

    “This is just the nationalists seeing the EU referendum entirely through their prism of independence,” David Mundell told BuzzFeed News

    That will be the British Nationalists, I assume? All very confusing.

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    @Nana
    My MSP. Clued up. Big asset. Knew the game before Smith even sat for the first time.

  199. One_Scot says:

    Now that this EU thing has kicked off, it looks like England is no longer interested in dealing with Scotland any more, oh, wait, I forgot, it’s always been that way.

    Don’t forget SNP x 2 come May, I think they may need a little reminder that we’re not going anywhere any time soon.

  200. liz says:

    I will vote yes to remain in the EU.

    When, hopefully soon, Scotland votes for indy, we can cut our own deals, remove the NHS from TTIP

    Give Greece our full support, get the fisheries quota changed and so on

  201. Thepnr says:

    @Les Wilson

    So will Scottish votes be tallied separately, does not seems so, but happy to be corrected.

    They will be tallied separately according to the Guardian. See my post at 3:02

  202. yesindyref2 says:

    @Archie Hamilton
    Ah well, Sturgeon speaking in London and the rest of the UK in favour of staying in the EU. I wonder how many of the other EU countries she might happen to visit to talk about the situation over the next 4 months, now Angus Robertson has the PM on record in the HoC?

  203. CameronB Brodie says:

    Apologies, I wrongly attributed my earlier quote, which should have been from Perry Anderson.

  204. Swami Backverandah says:

    Witness Cameron’s vicious attack on one of his own in Parliament today.
    Less it leave any doubt just how vicious any Tory will be with regard to any others.

  205. Les Wilson says:

    Thepnr says:

    Hi, did read your previous post, counted in Manchester?, oh well that will be our vote sealed then. Yes will be Yes, But No will be yes too!
    No local counting,no Scots doing their own count, democracy dies.

  206. I just hope Nicola and the SNP don`t contaminate/befoul themselves with sharing a pro EU platform with some of the more despicable Yoons like Kezzy and Ruthy.

  207. yesindyref2 says:

    @Les Wilson
    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-corporate/overnight-count-at-eu-referendum-will-take-place

    “6. Regional Counting Officers will be responsible for coordinating the delivery of the referendum in their electoral region and will collate the local totals into a regional total.
    7. Counting Officers are responsible for administering the voting process in their local area. Their duties include running polling stations, managing the postal vote process and counting the votes cast in that area.”

    Manchester is the overall tally cunt, not regions, not local totals.

  208. gerry parker says:

    Les,

    Votes are counted by the Counting (returning) officer for each Scottish LA. They are appointed by the CEO of the Local Authority – who sometimes appoints himself so he gets a bit of dosh on the side.

    Since the Local ratepayers, and the Scottish Government fund the Local Authorities I would find it difficult to understand the Counting officer declaring “I have counted all the votes accurately and sent them all down to England, they will report the result”

  209. msean says:

    I read online about the possible increased powers of the Scottish Parliament in the event of an UK exit from the EU. I don’t believe that for a minute,Westminster can withdraw powers at anytime from the Scottish Parliament.

    I will vote to remain so that we aren’t left carping from the sidelines. It seems the warnings re Scottish independence are coming true,but within the UK and now ‘the out of the EU’ scenario looms larger.

  210. Iain More says:

    I agree that this Referendum has nothing to do with Scotland. I will still be voting to leave though.

    I have already heard the absurd argument that those that voted Naw in Sept 2014 should vote to stay in EU as it would help preserve the effin UKOK Union.

    I couldn’t contain my glee at the Brit Peso taking a hammering on the crooked currency markets. Time to dig oot those Norwegian spondoolicks I kept stashed under the bed.

    Oh the “volatility” of the poor wee Brit Peso, it canna stand on its ane twa feet athoot the EU, hee bloody haw!

  211. Thepnr says:

    Hi Les

    Please read again, specifically:

    Results will be declared as soon as they are known by the 382 local counting officers.

    Regional and national running totals will be available.

    Results in all 382 council areas “will be declared as soon as they are known” This includes the 32 Scottish ones.

    “Running totals will be available”.

    Couldn’t be any clearer to me or do you think I’m missing something?

  212. yesindyref2 says:

    Oops, sorry, must have been thinking of Spanner. That should be “Count”.

  213. call me dave says:

    EU voting procedure.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#Procedure

    look at the section

    voting areas and counts + table.
    Scotland 32 local voting areas

  214. Ken500 says:

    Scottish Widows will be heading back to Scotland.

    £1 down – borrowing up, import costs up.

    ‘Fiscal framework’. The Tories are just useless.

  215. Swami Backverandah says:

    @yesIndyref2
    “Manchester is the overall tally cunt, ”

    I’d like to buy a vowel thanks 😉

  216. Grouse Beater says:

    The list just keeps getting bigger and bigger: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY

  217. Orri says:

    Will be interesting to see how much Scotland’s electoral register increases in the run up to the Holyrood election and if it maintains it after. Unlike the referendum there’s certain to be exit polls so questions will definitely be asked if the results wary by a large amount. Perhaps Oor Ruthie can telll us in advance what postal ballot will be?

  218. ahundredthidiot says:

    Thanks DD, but sucking eggs for me

    I am tempted to get some buses organised, fill em up with yessers, drive doon to engerland and campaign for a Brexit!!

    Call it payback

    SNP X 2 in may, yes to stay in Europe (even though I am not personally convinced after greece) and if you live in England vote OUT…….and Jim Sillars……you can suck ma boz

    Apologies……….but he’s a fud

  219. ross says:

    OT Sorry…but this is important!

    Hello everyone! Im looking for some help.

    If you have a smart phone and use the app Whatsapp then have a look at the Emoticons in the flags section. Youll find a Union Jack aaaannndd a St georges flag but no other home nations are represented. I have sent a couple of emails to their ‘contact us address’ asking why and received a couple of feeble responses.

    If we all get behind this and complain en masse we can get them to add them or at least remove the St Georges one as a sign of respect to the millions of customers they have in the rest of the country.

    I love using whatsapp and would love to be able to use the Saltire in my messages the same as our English neighbours can. But really its just annoying that Scotland isnt seen as good enough to have an Emoticon flag but England is and that just gets on my t**s.

    Come on Wingers!!! Lets get this sorted. Complain complain complain

  220. yesindyref2 says:

    OT
    For any who think the SNP is soft on the media, try watching Sturgeon’s twitter thingy. The current unscrambking of Kenny Farquarson isn;t the first time:

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

  221. galamcennalath says:

    Predict.

    BBC Shortbread will spend more time during Scotch programming on the EU Ref than they will on the Holyrood election.

  222. G. Campbell says:

    GEORGE GALLOWAY: BRITAIN IS TOO WEE TO STAND ALONE

    Scotland, Farage and Me
    by George Galloway MP
    May 19, 2013

    The imbroglio involving Nigel Farage and a hate-filled mob on the streets of Edinburgh was a pure dead embarrassment to Scotland. Any sensible person can see that. It could have been so described by First Minister Alex Salmond if he was in any way prime ministerial, but it was not.

    For me Farage is a Right-wing populist Europhobe – the antithesis of everything I stand for. But he is not a racist, still less a fascist, and has every right to speak anywhere in the United Kingdom – so long as it exists.

    Salmond sank to the occasion, showing himself less than a national leader, more as a faction fighter at the head of a motley crew. If the virtual social media spoke for Scotland this game would already be a bogey. Cybernats bestride the internet in an increasingly poisonous parade of flag-waving and militancy which makes me wonder what happened to the Scotland I left just eight years ago.

    In that they are the mirror image of the Faragists who think getting all red-faced going down to the channel ports and shouting boo at Johnny Foreigner can somehow solve our problems, which are not, as it happens, the fault of the English, the immigrants, the gays or the Europeans.

    Independent, Scots would continue to be at the mercy of the waves of international vicissitude. The only difference would be that they had gotten out of an ocean-going liner and climbed into a Para-Handy puffer – with no life boats. The same is true of course of Farage’s fantasy of bulldog Britain. In that sense those waving their flags at each other in Edinburgh last week were bald men fighting over a comb and hair gel.

    If Britain cannot face this storm alone, how much less can an independent Scotland?

    http://redmolucca.net/2013/05/19/scotland-farage-and-me/
    ———————————————–
    January 6, 2015

    For me states have outlived their usefulness and are rendered increasingly meaningless in the globalised capitalist world in which we live. I believe in the increasing unity of states and believe that individual states will “wither away”.

    The unity of the Arab states, the African states, the Latin American states and of course the European states.

    redmolucca.net/2015/01/06/trouble-is-with-galloway-is-he-prefers-foreigners-to-his-own-sic/

  223. Andy.D says:

    Well all, good article but I aint voting to stay in this dog house its vote leave for me. Ok so lets vote to stay in let England take us out really…. grow up vote how you feel, Indy will come one way or the other I will not vote that does not go with my gut. VOTE LEAVE be brave Scotland.

  224. T222Deracha says:

    The Final vote will be UK wide, I have a feeling the regional results will not be available, as they will be bound to upset someone regardless of the outcome. 🙂

  225. Nana says:

    O/T

    Warning, you will need a strong stomach. A right pompous twerp of a Lord has called the snp A North Korean drill squad. Oh and Darling is one of the lordy twerps.

    http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/904f9ef3-fe99-4725-b812-9b782f01b1d7

  226. mike cassidy says:

    Completely OT – but I feel I should do a Nana and provide a link

    in this case to how you can never underestimate how devious big business can be – especially with the shale debate currently in abeyance.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-oil-lawsuits-idUSKCN0VV0DK

  227. heedtracker says:

    C4 teatimes news has gone tory England mad. Tory after tory after tory interview by Snow, in or out, total Scotland region blackout, as usual. C4 are UK state broadcasters but clearly and once again, the UK is England and tory only.

  228. Ken500 says:

    A UK PM with only half the support of his members

    Another GE

  229. Provost Sludden says:

    Before the Union, Scotland looked outwards towards Europe and England defied Europe. Plus ca change.

  230. Balaaargh says:

    Whoa there with the Scottish Widows talk!

    A part of the SW business is being spun off along with a bunch of other brands/companies within LBG into the one business unit. SW are actually expanding in Edinburgh having moved in to Orchard Brae. There are dozens of companies and brands within LBG; some are registered in Gresham Street, some are registered at the Mound.

  231. Gary45% says:

    Ross@7.23
    The next time you contact them, remind them a SCOT invented the phone if they are still too thick to understand play the race card.
    Or simply tell them to stick it.

    According to the Great British Medja, Oddjob speaks for the people, is it just me or does Boris sound like a Minion on diazepam.
    Blindyblipy, wifflywaffly, bumbly mumbly, which then morphs into Fundily mundily, could Oddjob be FUD in disguise?

  232. Les Wilson says:

    Thepnr says:

    No, entirely my mistake, thanks you and others for the info.
    Pheew!

  233. Robert Peffers says:

    @Janet says: 22 February, 2016 at 12:56 pm:

    ” … Boris is a shrewd cookie but he’s got nothing to offer Scotland.”

    Boris is indeed a shrewd cookie but the shrewdness, as it does with all such people, only extends so far as what is good for Boris and no one else.

    There is something shared in common with the whole rich boy/girl MP clique, no matter what party they latch onto, and that is they are in politics to look after number one and number one’s interests.

    The usual description applied to them is, “Career Politicians”, and the career comes before anything else, (bar money).

  234. yesindyref2 says:

    @Balaaargh
    Yes, sorry, very careless of me, I should know better. It is a specific part.

  235. Xaracen says:

    “Oops, sorry, must have been thinking of Spanner. That should be “Count”.”

    That would be a spannerism.

  236. IvMoz says:

    For those enquiring about the Scotland count, Wikipedia is your friend:

    There are to be 382 local voting areas which are then grouped into 12 regional counts.

    There will be separate declarations for each of the twelve regional counts.

    The Chief Counting Officer will announce the final result of the referendum (combining all 12 national/regional counts from across the UK and Gibraltar) in Manchester on Friday 24 June 2016.

    In Scotland the local voting areas will be the 32 local councils which will then feed their results into the Scottish national count

  237. heedtracker says:

    A UK PM with only half the support of his members

    Another GE

    Red tory Gordon Brown didn’t need a GE to get the chance to be the most unpopular prime minister ever, leader of the Scottish raj, the one eyed Scottish idiot etc. And he spent his first 6 months as PM, trying to decide whether or not to hold a GE. He bottled it and the rest is UKOK history. Bet Crash wishes he hadn’t chickened out though.

  238. Petra says:

    The EU vote: I’ll be making sure that I’m registered to vote as there seems to be problems in that area; not using a postal vote and checking to see if there are exit polls.

    ……

    @ Dr Jim says at 5:11 pm …

    Great post Dr Jim and I totally agree with you.

    ……

    @ Nana says at 6:05 pm ….

    ‘Fiscal framework.’ https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/

    Hands jiggers off on holiday and now he’s refusing to attend the Finance Committee meeting in Holyrood on Wednesday. Priti Patel has also stopped attending meetings at Holyrood. Equal partners my backside. We’re constantly being treated with contempt. It’s also extremely annoying to see that the BBC and STV are not reporting on any of this, as per usual.

    ……

    I just watched a Scottish fisherman on the news tonight complain about the EU in relation to Spanish fisherman fishing in Scottish waters.

    Does anyone know if this is down to EU policy or has it more to do with Westminster representing Scotland at EU talks such as, latterly, people like Lord de Mauley (with no knowledge of the fishing industry) rather than Environment Secretary Richard Lochhead?

    On the other hand I’ve read that the European Commission (unelected body of career bureaucrats) makes decisions for the fishing industry. The article states that the EC is not strictly speaking EU per se?!? If so it should be scrapped.

    ……

    There’s a number of great articles in The National today. Sorry I can’t post them:

    Expose of Danny Alexander and the OBR. ‘Made two requests for changes that were particularly concerning …… A number of Treasury requests for non-factual changes appear to have been taken on board by the OBR ….. Sir David Ramsden chief economic advisor to the Treasury is in Osborne’s pocket (my word).’

    ‘Boris becomes biggest name to back Brexit’. ”Minutes after Johnston’s news conference the bookmaker William Hill slashed their odds for the leave campaign down from 5/2 to 7/4.”

    A great article from George Kerevan ‘European express on track to hit the buffers’.

    And ‘Profits soaring for Scotland’s private sector firms’ …… Profits soared by 65% in the last year. No mention if they are paying the living wage or not?!

    ……

    @ Grouse Beater at 7:11pm …… Great list Grouse Beater and I’m sure you’ll be adding to it constantly, especially between now and June.

  239. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Thank you, yesindyref2, for:-

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-corporate/overnight-count-at-eu-referendum-will-take-place

    I make a point of not posting a comment until I have read ALL the previous comments on a page. That way, one doesn’t make the mistake of asking a question that has already been asked (and answered), or sticking in a comment that duplicates a previous comment from somebody else.

    Hence, I tend to post in ‘off-topic’ where repitition is not really a problem.

    The question about how the referendum count would be declared was answered by somebody, earlier today, with a link (I think) to a Guardian story about it.

    Obviously, piles of peeps didn’t read that post, or there would be no need for your further link about how the declarations would be made.

    Speed-reading the comments has its drawbacks…

  240. kininvie says:

    Someone made the interesting point that because they were effectively delegated to the EU, a number of policies do not appear on the ‘Reserved’ list under the Act setting up the Scottish Parliament.

    Among them – agriculture and fisheries…

    Can’t you just see the fun when Westminster tries to pull them back to London? Especially when we start negotiating a bilateral fisheries agreement with the Norwegians…

    So many things they just haven’t thought about…

  241. Effijy says:

    Are You Jock’IN ?

    or Englan dOUbT

  242. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bill McDermott says: 22 February, 2016 at 2:32 pm:

    ” … Barroso was following a completely different agenda in his own interests rather than worrying about little Scotland.”

    Not only that, Bill, but Barroso was not the EU he was the EC. That is the EU is the European Parliament which is composed of the MSPs who actually make the decisions of the European Parliament.

    Barroso was the president of the European Commission, (the clue is in that word, “commission”. He was a paid for EU Parliament Civil Servant. Not only that but he invariably always preceded his apparent pontifications by saying either that it was his own personal view or that he was not specifically talking about Scotland.

    The job of the EC is to interpret the EU laws and regulations and to advise upon suggested changes to those rules and laws. Not that you would have noticed that fact from the UK press, radio or TV. They always made it seem that Barosso was the great authority and spoke on behalf of the EU.

  243. kininvie says:

    ….and further to the above – the nation most damaged by UK (or Scottish) fisheries policy no longer being within the remit of the EU – would be Spain.

    They’d be furious – Visas needed to holiday on the Costas, maybe? Or a total blockade of Gibralter?

    OTOH – a declaration that Scotland would seek to join the EU at the earliest opportunity after indyref2, might just give the Spanish cause to think they ought to be a bit friendlier next time round..

  244. Robert Peffers says:

    @Joemcg says: 22 February, 2016 at 2:33 pm:

    “Douglas, like other posters have predicted I’m convinced they will not let us see the breakdown region by region or “nation” by nation to prevent any dissent or “rebellion” breaking out. Brittania rules you know.”

    Why worry, Joemcg. If they do that it leaves the door open to claim ALL the UK in voters as Scots. They may be daft but thay are not that daft.

  245. Thepnr says:

    @Balaaargh

    Whoa there with the Scottish Widows talk!

    A part of the SW business is being spun off along with a bunch of other brands/companies within LBG into the one business unit. SW are actually expanding in Edinburgh having moved in to Orchard Brae. There are dozens of companies and brands within LBG; some are registered in Gresham Street, some are registered at the Mound.

    Thanks for that, you appear to have some knowledge of the actual reality of the situation.

    Is what you are saying in other words that this is just a transfer of a Brass Plaque to some nondescript alley in the City of London? Just like Alex Salmond described in his “spat” with Nick Robinson of the BBC before the Indyref.

    Or is it more than that? You appear to have some inside knowledge so my question is will any jobs be transferred from Edinburgh to London?

    Fair enough if you do not know the answer to this question, I expect if it does mean job losses we will be reading about it in the Corporate Media shortly. Or maybe not.

    My only wish is that we had an honest media and an honest government.

    Fat chance, until Scotland chooses Independence.

  246. thedarktanyin says:

    I campaigned for Sillars at his stunning by-election victory for the SNP in Govan in 1988, and this victory alone kept the flame of independence burning through very difficult times. So criticism of Jim is way off the mark, as he will always be a great Scottish Nationalist.

    The SNP are too pro EU, but few within the party have the guts to say so. Nicola has eyes on a bigger prize than that of First Minister, and she will demonstrate that over the next four months.

    End London Rule. End Brussels Rule. A totally Free Scotland, accept nothing less!

  247. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 22 February, 2016 at 2:34 pm:

    … you better watch out Luigi, the “thought police” will be after you soon. Don’t you dare start thinking for yourself and making up your own mind. I see Jim Sillars has quickly passed to becoming a “non person” since he had the temerity to voice an unapproved opinion.”

    Your usual utter pish, Dave.

    Some of us, who actually knew both Jim and his wife Margo since long before they got married, have highlighted Jim’s weaknesses long before numptie like you came along to insult us.

    Just to put that in perspective Margo was an honoured guest at my late wife and my wedding reception. I first met Jim from my time as a shop steward in the ship repair industries long before he married Margo.

    I believe someone already suggested that Margo rather kept Jim’s more strange ideas under some control. I’d go along with that.

  248. Rock says:

    The very two arguments I posted last night for Scotland to vote Yes:

    “Many in Scotland are not too keen on the EU.

    But supporters of independence voting in Scotland should vote to remain in. Those voting in rest of UK should vote to get out.

    If a clear majority in Scotland votes to remain in but the overall vote is to get out, there will be another independence referendum sooner rather than later, which Yes will most likely win.

    My preferred outcome is for Scottish Yes votes to tip the balance in favour of remaining while England votes narrowly to exit.

    The right wing press and the likes of Farage will fall over themselves to make Scotland leave the UK, debt free, keep sterling if you want, Shetlands are yours.

    It will be the best revenge Scotland could have got in its 300 years plus as a “sovereign” colony.”

  249. Wullie B says:

    Am really split over this matter, I am ultra PRO INDEPENDENCE but am also a fisherman, and to tell the truth, I hate the EU more than Westminster (Only just) due to constrictions the EU have placed on the industry, Westminster were conned when they joined after the likes of the Common Fishing Policy being enacted into EU law the night before the UK joined effectively giving away our rights out to the 200 mile limit which was gained after the cod wars, Heath and every PM since have seen the industry as expendable when making deals over every treaty ratified in Brussels but even if they didnt, landlocked countries like the future Turkey or any member state land locked or not bordering our water can agree with Spain or France and Westminster will cowtow as they are effectively powerless so both are at fault

    But what people dont realise is that Scottish fishermen have had enough of R Lochheads bull in a china shop approach to enviromental factors of the industry enacting rules to the max first seen in the Cod Recovery Zones, blocks 30nm sq where only Scottish vessels couldnt work, now this was Scottish Government rules not Westminster, Every other EU fishing vessel could still work these closed areas, and more recently the MPAs /SACs pushed by COAST and SALT, funded by the Esme Fairburn Foundation and PEW, Scottish fishermen are close to losing faith in him and have actually started a petition for a vote of NO CONFIDENCE as he has literally given lip service to those who harvest from the sea to holiday home owners and recreational users.

    I really am close to supporting a vote out of EU as are most fishermen in Scotland and the UK and the only thing that will stop me is if Nicola Sturgeon commits to an Indyref2 if the UK votes out but Scotland votes in but if not then I cant honestly say what I will do on June 23, it is that close in my brain, that I might even just shut my eyes and vote in the dark

  250. donald says:

    Wullie you are right our North Sea seemas to belong to everybody but us. And you are right Westminster used it as a “trading Card” to get other concession. they always have.

    When we are independent we can chose what we want to give away. and fishing is not going to be one. Strangely enough!

  251. Cadogan Enright says:

    Well put Rev

    Interesting the BBC makes such a regular feature of Sillars,

    you would think he would be smart enough to know that they are really not interested in him but in what damage he can do with their help.

    So the motto is now SNP+SNP and STAY

  252. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “It is not a unified country but at best only a political state or perhaps a bipartite Kingdom. In fact it is both a state and a kingdom but, as it is a bipartite agreement between two equally sovereign partners, one partner can divorce the other if they do not both agree.”

    Pissing against the wind as always.

    If the UK, which is the member state of the EU, votes to get out, the whole lot of us get dragged out.

    The purring queen’s corgis are more “sovereign” than us Scottish plebs.

  253. bookie from hell says:

    House of Lords Tonight

    feel the love

    —————————————————

    Lord McClusky

    snp people -north korea drill squad

    —————————————————

    Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

    lord mccluskey made a brilliant case

    scottish gov want cake and eat it

    scottish nationalists

    600 mill admin so we can say made in Scotland

    —————————————————

    Lord Darling of Roulanish

    nationalists time table

    scottish nationalist party

    —————————————————-

    Lord Turnbull

    we have banks that pretend HQ scotland

    nationalist policies

    —————————————————–

    Lord Bruce of Bennachie

    scottish nationalists

    terrified of responsibility

  254. Legerwood says:

    Robert Peffers @ 8

    Barosso is now a policy fellow at Princeton in the Institute of self-determination!

    His successor as President of the EC, Mr Junkers seemed a bit more circumspect about Scottish membership of EU

  255. Some surprising views about Jim Sillars here. If anyone doubts his commitment to indie, they should be sectioned.

    Where some see a ‘loose cannon’ others see a principled man that is willing to stand by his beliefs even if it means forfeiting a well payed job and career path. A yes man he is not, walk the party line he will not. At least his views are his own.

    At 78 he does what he does because he is bothered and he has nothing more to prove.

    I’ve heard him at many meetings and he is a hugely politically educated and motivational individual who I have the highest respect for. I also happen to disagree with his stance on Europe but that does not change my view of the man.

  256. Rock says:

    Ken500,

    “Jim Sillar’s has a grudge against the SNP.”

    That was very apparent during the independence referendum, as it is now.

    He should be ashamed of himself for being used by the unionists in this way.

  257. Cadogan Enright says:

    @wullie B 9.08

    Trouble is Ireland has never had a country to support it on it his issue in the EU. England Spain and the others lined up against us and we had to struggle for a share of quota in our own waters.

    Where Scotland sovereign and representing itself internationally , it could ally with Ireland as the 2 countries own most of the fish stocks

  258. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 22 February, 2016 at 6:25 pm:

    ““This is just the nationalists seeing the EU referendum entirely through their prism of independence,” David Mundell told BuzzFeed News

    That will be the British Nationalists, I assume? All very confusing.

    Och! No! galamcennalath, everyone knows the are not British Nationalists, ‘cos nationalism is BAD, Bad, Bad.

    They are all British Patriots! ‘Cos Patriots are Good! Good! Good!

    Remind me again – what exactly is the difference between a nationalist and a patriot?

  259. call me dave says:

    Yaroo!

    The Tory peer likened talk of an agreement to “Billy Bunter’s postal order – it’s always coming tomorrow”.

    https://archive.is/AlWin

  260. Thepnr says:

    @Wullie B

    I truly believe that a Scottish government arguing our Fishermans case in the EU would have done a far better job than Westminster.

    Thing is, in Westminsters eyes the livelihood of our Fishermen are of no more importance than those working in our Mining, Steel, Shipbuilding and Manufacturing Industries from the 70’s through to the present day.

    Your industry has not been immune to the ravages of the neo-con mindset, your industry is just another victim but amazingly survives in a healthier state than the others mentioned.

    I want a revival, I revival in everything Scotland was at one time recognised as among the very best in the world.

    We will never achieve that under UKOK rule, in an Independent Scotland your industry will have twice as many seats in the EU parliament. You will actually have a Scottish Minister arguing for your livelihoods rather than a UK one who may have a different agenda.

    The decimation of fishing as an industry in Scotland did NOT happen under under a Scottish government, it happened under Thatcher and her Ministers who don’t give a shit about anything other than the City of London, the South East and their own pockets.

    I don’t believe the EU is the Fishermans problem here in the UK, it is those (not) fighting your case that are the problem. There have to be sensible policies in place to conserve stocks and I’m sure you’d agree. the main issue is obviously access to these stocks and quotas for each country.

    Please tell me if I’m wrong, I only know this from history but in the early 1800’s there was more herring in the NS than could be caught! For a while.

    In the 1860s there were 1100 herring boats operating out of the harbour and they were supported by no fewer than 650 coopers in the town.

    Failure to take steps to conserve stocks meant that the herring was in steep decline by the 1930s, by which time fewer than 30 fishing boats remained in Wick

    http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/wick/wick/

    There was no EU the Wullie.

  261. Rock says:

    craig sheridan,

    “Where some see a ‘loose cannon’ others see a principled man that is willing to stand by his beliefs even if it means forfeiting a well payed job and career path. A yes man he is not, walk the party line he will not. At least his views are his own.

    At 78 he does what he does because he is bothered and he has nothing more to prove.”

    The independence movement can do without someone whose anti SNP ‘principles’ happen to be more important than Scottish independence now that he is too old for a career in an independent Scotland.

  262. galamcennalath says:

    A lot of posters saying they are pro Indy but anti EU and will vote to leave.

    That is fine as long as we definitely get Indy asap. Are they that certain?

    The alternative is being ruled by a Tory WM while outside the EU. That, is a very chilling prospect indeed! If you think it’s bad now, it could be much worse!

    I would say In or Out is a decision for Scotland AFTER Indy!

  263. davidb says:

    Meanwhile, what news of the negotiations with the treasury over our country being shortchanged?

    Is their stitch up to fall? Are we going into this election asking for a mandate to tell them they can stick their Scotland Bill?

    Oh, on the EU. If pretty much everything you ever see on the Truth Ministry, or read in a “newspaper” ( ha ha ha ) about Scotland is bollox, why would you assume that anything you are fed about the EU is true?

    Now, as I seem forever to be just about the last poster on any thread, can we move on to stuff about our own place in the world. England and its imperial delusions grow tiresome as my impatience for Scottish independence grows.

  264. Bob Mack says:

    @Rock,

    The Queen is introduced in Scotland as “The Queen of Scots”. She is never referred to as the Queen of Scotland.

    A case to decide her sovereignty was raised in 1953,but was dismissed on the grounds that the plaintiff did not have “Title” to challenge. In other words,it was side stepped to avoid controversy.

    This is as Robert Peffers stated very important in a legal sense. The law is one very important route to achieve our freedom.

  265. The Rough Bounds says:

    Back in 1979 or 1980, not long after the ’79 referendum, I was taking part in an informal discussion group in a house in Inverness. Jim Sillars was there. I asked him the question ”If England went socialist tomorrow would you still vote for independence.”

    He said ”No”.

    I admired his honesty…and that was all.

  266. Big Jock says:

    Jim Sillars is so wrong it hurts. He is campaigning for out when Scotland is still part of an enslaved Union.

    The UK out of Europe running Scotland is very dark and scary. Forget independence they will slowly dismantle Scotland before that happens. We have some limited protection from the EU. Take that away and we become like Eire circa 1912.

  267. galamcennalath says:

    This is one of many flying around ….

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Fankledoose/status/701881993722773504/photo/1

    This EU campaign is going to provide so many examples of hypocrisy as ammunition for the future.

    For IndyRef2 someone could produce a big book of quotes from almost every Unionist of importance, and others of little consequence. Out of context of course, but the clear message is there.

  268. ahundredthidiot says:

    Rock@9:35

    Spot on

    Man’s an eijit, not a plant, not an agent of the state, not focussed, worse than any of that, he is just an auld fool of a man.

    To be used as our opposition see fit, particularly the media and consequently a threat to our movement.

  269. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The absolutely important point that must be made very clear is that every member of the EU is in fact an independent country retaining full sovereignty.
    They cooperate and share sovereignty on an entirely voluntary basis

    They can all leave the EU if they wish.

    This is the opposite of the current case of Scotland in the UK.

    Many people do not understand the distinction.

  270. Patrician says:

    Very good article Doug. However, the UK isn’t leaving the EU in the next 6 months or the next 10 years. The people at the top won’t stand for it, if leaving was in their interests then we would have been out years ago. Even Mr Johnson is equivocating with his “We will have another negotiation and then another referendum” , Boris is only after the PM gig nothing else.

  271. Ken500 says:

    100 mile limit can be put on home ports by EU members. Licensed. Fishemen sell their licenses. Migrate workers work in the fishing industry. Peterhead in like Latvia. Workers would rather work in the Oil industry.

    The fishermen overfished the sea. Conservation methods would have to be put in place or there would be no fish left. Scottish boats have access to other fishing areas.

    The EU is the nearest, biggest market for the Scottish fishing industry, for premium prices. France and Spain. Fish lorries leave every night. Salmon is sold to China.

  272. ewen says:

    The Rough Bounds @ 10:10
    Exactly where my doubts about Jim Sillars comes from. He is a product of Ayrshire Labour. He is a devolutionist but I have always suspected that independence and the SNP was the only route he had left after the demise of the SLP. I don’t think he is naturally for independence.

    Trouble is that the Labour habit of monstering the SNP sometimes bubbles up now and again. We all have our gripes with the SNP. Some of us have been in and out of the party on numerous occasions over the past decades but the time to publicly undermine the SNP is not now.
    We can all split after we have Independence and a stable post indie Government.

    Until that time avoid giving the unionist msm what it wants.

  273. Thepnr says:

    @ahundredthidiot

    You and Rock have a lot in common, ye’re both at the wind up.

  274. Ken500 says:

    There was once Russian factory ships on the West coast

  275. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I have been laughing for days
    Here is the original “Sash”
    It’s actually “The Hat My Father Wore”, written about 1878 and was sung at the St Patrick’s Days parades in New York

    I’m Paddy Miles, an Irish boy, just come across the sea,
    For singing and for dancing, I hope that I’ll please thee,
    I can dance and sing with any man that’s done in days of yore,
    On St Patrick’s Day I love to wear the hat my father wore.

    [Chorus:]
    It’s old but it’s beautiful, the best you’ve ever seen,
    It was wore for more than ninety years, in the beautiful isle so green,
    From my father’s great ancentors [sic] it descended with galore,
    It’s a relic of old daicincy [decency], is the hat my father wore.

    It can be listened to online on Tobar an Dualchais. I can’t seem to get it across

  276. ahundredthidiot says:

    Thepnr@10:43

    Really?….so Jim Sillars banging on about a ‘day of reckoning for the banks’ in the closing days of indyref1 was a good thing for us?

    Away an bile yer heid pal

  277. Balaaargh says:

    @Thepnr

    Let’s go with the first one. If any losses or relocations are/were involved, they’ve more than likely already been announced. LBG have multiple companies across every part of the financial sector and there is still some duplication amongst them. This is the brass plaque for the HBos brands, Clerical Medical and Halifax Life joining up with SW which was a Lloyds TSB company. It was announced back in 2009.

    As for your point on the media, the FTAdvisor.com article is quite impartial but doesn’t contain all of the meat, the Hootsmon has all the meat but throws on a liberal helping of salt to leave a nasty taste in the mouth and the Sunday Times article is just rancid dogfood served as haute cuisine.

  278. Clootie says:

    ….I could never accept being on the same side of the arguement as UKIP! If the bigots and far right want us out of Europe then you can be assured it is not a good idea.

  279. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    “Remind me again – what exactly is the difference between a nationalist and a patriot?”

    Oxford Dictionery helps with that.

    nationalist

    A person who advocates political independence for a country: ‘a Scottish nationalist’

    Or

    A person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

    [ The nice, or the very nasty. ]

    patriot

    A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors: ‘a true patriot’

    [ Perhaps an undertone of belligerence there? ]

  280. Rock says:

    Bob Mack,

    “This is as Robert Peffers stated very important in a legal sense. The law is one very important route to achieve our freedom.”

    The law has not helped our cause one jot in the last 300 years and it will not help us one jot in the next 600 years. If you need any reminding, think of Carmichael.

    Not a single leader in the SNP talks about 300 year old laws which have been broken a million times rendering the treaty of union invalid.

    We have to learn to fight today’s battle on today’s terms, not ancient laws.

    That is why I can’t stand Robert Peffers’s endlessly repeated pedantry.

    Accept that the UK political state is our coloniser and the ONLY way we can become free from it is by a majority Yes vote in a public referendum.

    We plebs are no more ‘sovereign’ than the English plebs. We are all slaves of the british establishment.

    And if according to Robert Peffers we will remain ‘British’ after independence, what was wrong with Gordon Brown calling us ‘North Britain’ when we were still a colony?

  281. Dr Jim says:

    I seem to remember Alex Salmond talking about a document he’d uncovered which said that Scotlands fishing industry was “expendable”, to do with some deal Westminster were doing around the 70s and involving the EU probably a bit like moving Scotlands maritime borders halfway up Scotlands coast

    How any Fisherman or Farmer can accept Westminsters word on anything is beyond me, wait till the Tories Totally get their own way without the EU, Ach they’ll probably still blame the SNP

    Maybe some of you clever computer guys have kept this document or know how to find it, I’m sorry I don’t have more info on it

  282. Rock says:

    Thepnr,

    “@ahundredthidiot

    You and Rock have a lot in common, ye’re both at the wind up.”

    Like Scottish Labour’s hatred of the SNP, Tory hugging Thepnr’s hatred of me makes him attack any point I make, whatever its merits, without arguing his own case in response.

  283. Thepnr says:

    @Balaaargh

    It’s as I thought, business do this all the time for various reasons. My main point in asking the question is the first place was to try to highlight what it would mean for an Independent Scotland “threatened” with large companies moving.

    Where to I ask? Move the Asda in Dundee to Derby? rubbish of course, few if any jobs would have to move out if Scotland became Independent.

    One thing is certain, Civil service jobs and jobs related to administering an Independent Scottish government would be moving into Scotland.

    Cumbernauld HMRC would not be closing it would be expanding, we wouldn’t be getting our pension advise from Newcastle for example.

    I suspect that 10’000’s of jobs would be relocated from South of the border. No I don’t suspect, it’s obvious.

    Hang their brass plaques where they like but if they do business in Scotland they will pay their taxes here, Norway is pretty good at that.

  284. Robert Peffers says:

    O/T:
    I see I called it right earlier tonight.

    David Coburn, the UKIP leader in Scotland solemnly announced on Scotland Tonight, “I’m not a nationalist, I’m a patriot”.

    Here are some COD, (Concise Oxford Dictionary, definitions :-

    nationalism // n.
    1 (a)- patriotic feeling, principles, etc.
    (b)- an extreme form of this; chauvinism.
    2 a policy of national independence.

    patriot / n.
    a person who is devoted to and ready to support or defend his or her country.

    Anyone see a great deal of difference? Mind you the Patriot one looks much more like definition (b), of nationalism?

    Nah! Me neither.
    The laughable thing is those UK patriots think the UK is their country and the UK isn’t a country it is a Kingdom that contains four countries.

  285. Thepnr says:

    @Rock

    Tory hugging Thepnr’s hatred of me

    Hahaha “Tory hugging”

    This is an example of Troll bait, Rock would love me to bite but I’ll just send him a kiss.

    xx Rock

  286. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says:22 February, 2016 at 11:16 pm:

    “I seem to remember Alex Salmond talking about a document he’d uncovered which said that Scotlands fishing industry was “expendable”, to do with some deal Westminster were doing around the 70s and involving the EU probably a bit like moving Scotlands maritime borders halfway up Scotlands coast.”

    The Fishing one is a well known one, Dr Jim. The UK government were quite open about it in the 1970s. It was a selling point for the UK to gain entry to the then EC.

    The more recent one concerning the Scottish farmers was even more blatant. The Westminster Establishment were given EU subsidy explicitly for the benefit of the, (mainly), Scottish Hill farmers. The Westminster Government diverted most of it to English non-hill farmers.

    So not only do Scottish MPs, MSPs or MEP get nowhere near farming or fishing negotiations with the EU but the English ones who do have a free hand to rip off Scottish farmers and fishermen.

    It is a fact that the Spanish Fishing Fleet, (the largest in Europe), has more access to Scottish territorial waters than have native Scots fishermen.

    This is one very good reason why the Spanish, (touted by Westminster as opposing an independent Scotland’s entry to the EU), would NOT be in favour of keeping an independent Scotland out of Europe.

    It would obviously mean they Spanish fleet being totally banned from the EUs largest fishing grounds as these are mainly in Scottish territorial waters and a Scotland out with the EU would not allow any EU fishing in Scottish waters.

  287. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “The laughable thing is those UK patriots think the UK is their country and the UK isn’t a country it is a Kingdom that contains four countries.”

    The laughable thing actually is Westminster, the UK’s parliament, passes laws and the purring queen signs them on behalf of the single political state or country that is the UK.

    Does the purring queen ask us ‘sovereign’ Scots if she should sign on our behalf? Or does she ask her ‘sovereign’ corgis?

    Do the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish First Ministers attach their signatures as well?

    Scotland is a colony. The world’s only ‘sovereign’ colony if that makes you happy.

    Only after we become independent, we will be a real country again.

    For now, we are nothing more than a pretend country which has been robbed for the last 300 years.

  288. Rock says:

    Thepnr,

    “Hahaha “Tory hugging”

    This is an example of Troll bait, Rock would love me to bite but I’ll just send him a kiss.”

    I apologise, not Tory hugging but Tory embracing Thepnr:

    “Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.”

    How many Tories have you been able to embrace to our cause so far?

  289. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    O/T
    I’ve got it now. The original “Sash” as sung at St Patrick’s Day New York Parades in the late 19th century.

    I wonder what position the boys with the flutes will take on the EU referendum. Hope they go for UK out with their UKIP pals. Wonder where Ruthie is on this.

    http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/56064;jsessionid=3F0D7D56C858FF976FE4CCB178A7E517

  290. Awizgonny says:

    This article is wrong, mainly because it’s based on the simplistic presumption that as far as England is concerned “it’s going to be about one thing…immigration.” This may be at the forefront at the moment. It won’t be for long. It will move on to other matters, principally economic ones, pounds in pockets, trade, jobs, pensions and so on. This is what people principally vote on. And that’s why the Remain vote will almost certainly win, barring some unforeseen catastrophe.

    The rest of it is a load of old whatiffery, and I am deeply skeptical as to whether there would be enough shift in opinion toward Independence should England vote to Leave to take it over the line in a second referendum. So vote for what you believe in. The case for Scottish independence can and should be made on its own merits. Not on the basis of sham politicking.

  291. yesindyref2 says:

    Apparently, the Geological Society is looking for test subjects.

  292. Valerie says:

    I’m finding the discussion on fisheries interesting. I know Lochhead has definitely been snubbed by London, and prevented from speaking at the EU, there was a row about it.

    Found this from the P &J, 5 Sept,2014. Bearing in mind it’s said with their intention of being in the EU.

    Mr Salmond said: “A Yes vote is a huge opportunity for Scotland’s fishing industry.

    “It means that never again will it be considered ‘expendable’ – as Westminster described it.

    “Scotland’s fishing and seafood sectors are great industries and play an important part in our economic success.

    “As such, they are many times more important to Scotland than to the UK as a whole, and for that reason they will be a much greater priority in an independent Scotland – indeed they will be a national priority.”

    Mr Salmond predicted that the industry could “flourish” in an independent Scotland.

    He added: “A vote for independence will mean that we can protect our fishing sector and our rich heritage as an eminent fishing nation for this and future generations by stopping our quota being sold outside Scotland.

    “Indeed, without independence, there is no way of guaranteeing quota will not be sold outwith Scotland.”

    Mr Salmond argued Scotland was already one of the EU’s “leading” fishing nations, with waters which account for 20% of the EU catch, generating up to £500million for the economy each year.

  293. Onwards says:

    One thing Sillars is right about is in constantly maintaining a case for independence. Not just sitting back and waiting for better conditions. If SNP politicians start getting too comfortable with devolution and don’t keep selling self-government, then demand will inevitably fade.

  294. heedtracker says:

    Another day of UKOK airbrushing anything Scottish out of UKOK life n shit. Usual UKOK display of rancid The Graun liars wiping their Scotland region completely out of the Trident 2 debate this time. Although the word Scotland does get stuck under their nice navy photo and their lunatic Lord Robertson also says stuff.

    It makes you wonder if its a planned permanent Scotland BBC led media black out or just plain old UKOK imperial master baiting and we won, go away now.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/22/labour-trident-defence-review-facts-cyber-attacks-underwater-drones

    Don’t forget your adblock.

  295. Chic McGregor says:

    OK I know recent polls said a majority of Scots would vote for indy if there is a brexit triggered referendum.

    My concern is this.

    Scots, apart from the omni-activist anoraks (ie. Us and Them) by and large did not put indy anywhere near the top of their priorities before the indy campaign.

    By the end of the campaign, this had changed, for a huge swathe of normally non activist Scots.

    It didn’t exist before.

    My point is, that if there is another campaign of similar motivational potential i.e. the EU one then I think it more than possible that large numbers may become highly motivated and polarised by that in a way that does not exist at the moment and which is not easy to anticipate.

    By the end of the EU campaign, what if the polarisation and motivation is so high that many Yes indy voters vote for exit?

    Then consider what those may do in a new indy ref. bearing in mind the freshness and motivation levels they have just been raised to and the victory they just secured.

    Yours
    Worried
    Kirrie

  296. Kenny says:

    I think the reason there are so many “don’t knows” (in rUK also) is because both systems are corrupt, undemocratic and neoliberal!

    Surely a freshly independent Scotland, full of energy (after recovering from the celebrations, of course), should lead instead of follow?

    A newly independent Scotland would *probably* (barring circumstances) not be in the EU. So why not seize the opportunity to join up with our closest neighbours — Norway and Iceland, maybe an independent Catalonia — to create a minor “trading bloc of democractic nations” with a small parliament in which all sittings and committee meetings are broadcast online?

    This could become an alternative to the EU, one which would not be allowed to repeat the terrible things being done to the people of Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain…

    The SNP vision is great. But I think there is more energy in the YES movement as a whole to take us much further than just being “independent” from the rUK and Westminster. I am convinced an independent Scotland, bubbling with all that energy pent-up over 300 years, can jump twice as high as the jump needed to take us over 50% in any old IndyRef2.

  297. Thepnr says:

    “Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.”

    I did say that Rock though it was more than two year ago in the run up to the Independence Referendum. How do you know this?

    Why Rock are you raising this now? What is your motivation?

    More impotantly I think is how do you even know I said that unless you have it written down somewhere? Keeping records are we? On your own, or with wee helpers/

    Rock I don’t hate you but do hate a stalker who can regurgitate any post I might have done years ago. Is that you?

    This is not the first time you have done this. I’m still well aware of you quoting my posts way back when even when they were months old in Wings articles. Your colours show.

    Do you remember that Rock?

  298. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Onwards at 12.02

    I agree entirely

  299. heedtracker says:

    On Scottish energy and energising democracy, Brent crude’s stable and rising

    http://www.cityam.com/235113/wti-and-brent-crude-oil-price-floating-on-calm-seas-after-a-rough-week

    Should be interesting watching yoon culture;s on going Scots oil’s bust project fearing fizzle out, over this year.

  300. Still Positive. says:

    I met Jim Sillars at a Yes Alliance meeting in Clydebank last September. I told him that I had wanted an independent Scotland since Winnie Ewing won Hamilton in 1967 when I was a teenager and I didn’t really expect it to happen until May 2011 when the map of Scotland turned yellow!

    Since then I have wanted independence more passionately than ever – he told me he felt the same.

    As others have said I think he is missing Margo and her restraint on him and the SCUM exploit that.

    Valerie @ 12.14 Thanks for that well worth a read, especially now.

  301. ben madigan says:

    haven’t read all the comments so I don’t know if this point has been mentioned. First of all I have always supported DD’s strategic line.

    However Mr cameron’s modifications have changed the picture somewhat. The Brexit Ref will be for Leave or Remain with those modifications he has just negotiated (no closer union, outside the euro, special semi-detached (2nd tier) status for the UK etc).

    I still think Scotland should vote to stay and try to use this situation as a lever for independence.

    As soon as we know leave wins in England but not in Scotland, the Scottish government should communicate to the EU
    1)its interest in staying to maintain its people’s status as EU citizens,
    2)its intention to separate from England within 2 years (when the UK negotiations over leaving have to end
    3) prepare for Indyref2 and
    4) explore the option of joining the EU as a full member (even with the Euro), not a 2nd class member.

    After the Independent scottish parliament has been fully bedded in and full EU membership for Scotland is sorted (with or without the Euro), the pros and cons of membership will be better understood and can be weighed up impartially.

    Only then should Scotland’s referendum on staying or leaving the EU take place, if people are not happy with the way things are. I envisage it happening at a much later date (and who knows what will happen between now and then) with no external influences or UK propaganda.

  302. boris says:

    Former pensions minister Steve Webb has warned that chancellor George Osborne is getting ready to drop a £4bn “extra tax bombshell” in next month’s Budget by getting rid of the so-called tax-free lump sum. Full details here:

    http://caltonjock.com/2016/02/21/scottish-state-pensions-rip-off-scots-nearing-retirement-who-voted-to-stay-with-the-union-read-this-and-weep/

  303. lobbey says:

    While I respect what he has done in the past, Jim Sillars doesn’t really seem to be with the program on this. He also made a couple of stupid comments in the run up to the referendum which weren’t helpful. Each to there own, I suppose, but he appears to be too bitter to contribute anything useful anymore.

  304. Brian McHugh says:

    Rev Stu @2:27, It is not really a high risk gamble, as your one vote is almost certainly not going to be the deciding one, therefore statistically a microscopic risk. There are probably also much less Pro-Indy Scots living in rUK, than the likely margin of a final result in the EU Referendum, so the odds don’t get much riskier.

  305. Macart says:

    RE: Jim Sillars

    You don’t have to agree with someone 100% of the time in order to respect them. The independence movement always has been and always should be a broad church. Kinda knocks the whole pre programmed robots thing into a cocked hat don’t you think?

    I don’t think now is the time for Scots to have the EU conversation, not when another legislature uses our resources and sovereignty as bargaining chips ‘on our behalf’ (cough).

    One union and bureaucracy at a time folks. I know we’re supposed be thrawn and such, but moderation in all things. 😀

    To me, at this time, it makes more sense to put clear water between Holyrood and Westminster, win our independence, renegotiate our own independent EU settlement in the interim and give our country a bedding in period, in both independence and the EU. Once we’ve had say, a parliamentary term to see what shakes, then and only then, if that’s what we still wish, petition our independent parliament for our own EU referendum. A referendum where we have a conversation based on our needs and priorities, yes?

    In the meantime, its worth remembering… broad church.

  306. Robert Peffers says:

    @Legerwood says: 22 February, 2016 at 9:34 pm

    ” … Barosso is now a policy fellow at Princeton in the Institute of self-determination!

    His successor as President of the EC, Mr Junkers seemed a bit more circumspect about Scottish membership of EU

    The point I’m making, Legerwood, is that it doesn’t matter a damn what the President of the European Commission thinks or says as they are not the European Union but Civil Servant employees of the European Parliament and they have absolutely no decision making powers.

    Furthermore, they cannot really make any pronouncements on behalf of the EU as their remit is to advise the EU on existing EU Laws and rules. Which is why Barosso always preceded his statements by stating it was his own views or that he was not specifically talking about Scotland.

    It was thus the Establishment supporting MSM and broadcasters who cast the pronouncements as those of the EU. If the EU had a fault it was in not making that clear to the Scottish electorate.

    Here is a cut & Paste from the European Commission home pages On their actual roll in regard to the European Parliament.

    The Commission’s main roles are to:-

    Propose legislation which is then adopted by the co-legislators, the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers.

    Enforce European law (where necessary with the help of the Court of Justice of the EU).

    Set a objectives and priorities for action, outlined yearly in the Commission Work Programme and work towards delivering them.

    Manage and implement EU policies and the budget.

    Represent the Union outside Europe (negotiating trade agreements between the EU and other countries, for example.).

    http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

  307. Robert Peffers says:

    @craig sheridan says: 22 February, 2016 at 9:34 pm:

    “Some surprising views about Jim Sillars here. If anyone doubts his commitment to indie, they should be sectioned.”

    Now I may have missed it as I’m rather busy just now, and only dipping into Wings in fits and starts, but I cannot see anyone doubting Jim’s commitment to indie.

    Which rather knocks on the head your insulting claims those who do not agree with Jim’s every pronouncement as gospel, should be sectioned.

  308. Ken500 says:

    There was never a total tax-free pension lump sum. Only 25% was tax free. Less if people were still working. The rest was taxed. There were (over) generous tax free concessions for wealthy taxpayers. Huge tax free lump sum arrangements. Tax evasion is rife. HMRC is not fit for purpose. The UK Tax Laws are unfair and not enforced.

    The problem is UK Gov pensions payments are so low. Much of the UK Gov welfare bill goes to pensioners because of the low UK Gov pension rate. Ie Pensions are now paid at £140 a week? £180 per week should be the rate to get rid of top up welfare payments. Average wage is £400/500. Pensioners/students and the sick are the most vulnerable. Women who worked part-time were told to pay the small stamp, by the Gov and lost out on pension rights. Married women have to rely on their husband’s contribution for pension rights.

    Scottish taxpayers pay the (UK) Gov pension – £6Billion. The money is raised in Scotland. Pro rata less than the rest of the UK because people in Scotland die younger on average. Revenes are raised in Scotland for (UK) Gov pension/benefits – £16Billion.

    Oil sector is taxed at 60%. The price has fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs. More Oil & Gas has to be imported putting up the balance of payment deficit and the debt. Cutting the tax in relation to the price would save jobs and generate more revenues.

    The £1 has fallen. Putting up the price of borrowing and imports.

    So much for stable government. A UK PM with support of only half of his members because of schoolboy squabbles. The Tories were always going to muck up. Sooner rather than later. EVEL after the Ref promises.

  309. Ken500 says:

    Jim Sillars has a grudge against the SNP. They say black he says white.

    Is the wish for Independence greater than the grudge? Does the grudge cloud the judgement? Or not.

  310. Ken500 says:

    Cameron now looking for (EU) support from Scottish MP’s, after losing support of half his Party. The bargaining stakes get higher. Another UK GE. What a shambles.

    It was EU (Human rights) support that made the case for IndyRef 1. (Scottish sovereignty Law) and Indyref2. ‘The right to self determination’. That is what EVEL is trying to take away, without authority.

  311. Ghillie says:

    Macart @6.37am Agree with you wholeheartedly. You have a really good way with words!

    Doug daniel – Thank you – really helpful article!

    Had already to decided to vote YES to stay in the EU ( and yes, there is room for some considerable reform, we can do something about that once Scotland has a voice it can actualy use!)

    Thankyou everyone who put up links to AC and NS’s brilliant interviews! Even George Galloway made me smile!! (for putting obnoxious BBC interviewer right for false pretenses)

    BUT BACK TO THE MAIN NEWS!!! WHERE ARE THE HEADLINES ABOUT THE ‘NO DETRIMENT’ TALKS?!!

    IS HANDS GOING TO MAKE AN APPEARENCE?

    OR IS THIS ANOTHER SNUB?

    (Not sorry for shouting. Am properly pissed off. But not at all surprised.)

  312. Ken500 says:

    Unneccessary shambles. Westminster Unionists find a hole and keep on digging. It’s great watching the Tories tearing each other to bits.

  313. Ken500 says:

    The Tories made the promise of an EU Ref because of the perceived threat of UKIP to Tory support. A gross miscalculation. UKIP were never going to get anywhere in Westminster. Farague is a crook. Who is paying Boris?, to destroy his own Party.

  314. Almannysbunnet says:

    Sounds like Boris’s promise of further negotiations with the EU, with a better outcome if we vote out, is the equivalent of the devo-max we were promised.
    Same promise by the same people will lead to the same outcome.

    An EU Vow is sure to follow.

    https://archive.is/RlkLi

  315. Ken500 says:

    Who is paying Boris to destroy his own Party? The Russians, the Israeli’s, the Americans or the Saudi’s. Or the lot of them. The Bankers. Pig face suckers.

  316. Ken500 says:

    Aye ‘Vote NO for a worthless VOW’. It worked in the Indy Ref. Pig faced suckers. Cameron thought he got away with it. Not so smart now.

  317. woosie says:

    Jim Sillars’ anti-SNP stance betrays his lab background. I’m not anti-socialist, but some see their labour pals’ jobs on the line, and blame the SNP.

    We should all bear in mind that the SNP’s raison d’etre is independence. It’s more constitutional than political at this stage. Once that’s achieved, lets get pedantic about how we govern ourselves. Right now any slight division will be pounced on by our massively unionist press, and those who don’t read much will swallow their lies.

    On Barosso, we all know he was got at by Peppa’s pal; he also waded in with his Spanish hat on with a glance at Catalonia.

  318. Macart says:

    @Ghillie

    According to an article in the National today, yes. Yes it is another snub/delaying tactic. S’okay tho, we’re not going anywhere. Westminster and its establishment only have to answer one question.

    Having failed utterly to date to live up to ANY pledge or statement made during the referendum, is this your final interpretation of ‘the vow’, Westminster’s best offer to the Scottish electorate?

    Bit of a rhetorical question there really. If HMG had any intention of honouring what it led the Scottish public to expect as an outcome, it would have been done and dusted long since.

    The question for those who voted no is this. Do you think there should be consequences for this fraud? Do you think the Westminster system of government is worth letting off the hook one more time?

  319. Ken500 says:

    Catalonia and the rest of Spain both want to stay in the EU. Independence doesn’t have majority support in Catalonia. 2.4Million. 5.5Million electorate. 7.5Million pop. (1/5 of Spain) EU citizens reside in Catalonia/Spain are not allowed to vote in regional or National election. (1 Million?) in Catalonia. EU citizens resident in Spain are only allowed to vote in local or EU elections. Denied their equal EU rights? Illegal. Spanish governance is corrupt. They fleece EU citizens.

    There is more support pro rata for FFA/Independence in Scotland.

  320. Donnywho says:

    I am just hoping the press and the broadcast media get totally sucked into to whol EU fight that they forget to run SNPBad stories. I am a bit weary of them!

  321. Robert Peffers says:
    23 February, 2016 at 6:52 am

    Now I may have missed it as I’m rather busy just now, and only dipping into Wings in fits and starts, but I cannot see anyone doubting Jim’s commitment to indie.

    Which rather knocks on the head your insulting claims those who do not agree with Jim’s every pronouncement as gospel, should be sectioned.

    Yes, you missed it. The very first reference to Jim Sillars in the comments says:” I’ve never been 100% convinced of Jim Sillars commitment to independence.” rendering your adulterated version of what I said, wrong. That seems clear enough. If you read my post you will also see I don’t agree with him on this occasion either! I still have a ton of respect for him anf remain disappointed at some of the sentiment shown here.

  322. The post here, I should say I agree with 100% (only some comments are harsh on Sillars). In fact in a tweet on Feb 2nd I said:

    Love Jim Sillars but campaigning to leave when possibility of indieref2 trigger would be lost opporchancity.

  323. Valerie says:

    @Nana

    Another good, succinct piece from Gordon Macintyre-Kemp on Brexit, and Tory rule thereafter, stuff of nightmares.

  324. Doug Daniel says:

    Awizgonny: “So vote for what you believe in. The case for Scottish independence can and should be made on its own merits. Not on the basis of sham politicking.”

    Identifying the likely outcomes depending on how you vote is not trying to make the case for independence. The point of the article is to highlight that this referendum is not really about us. It’s a false debate from a Scottish viewpoint, but we can use it to our advantage if we’re smart about it.

    There’s no point in us getting caught up in a crappy debate between two new flavours of Project Fear. Leave England to it, and then on the day, vote the only way that can possibly help our movement.

  325. Fiona says:

    Well I disagree with the conclusions, though I realise mine is a minority view here and in the yes movement more generally.

    I will vote to leave the EU, and I do not accept that will have an adverse effect on the prospects of independence.

    First, I agree that the referendum is not about Scotland, wales or northern ireland. But I do not think it is about england either. As with most things, the people hardly matter. This is about the city and the elite. The campaign will be framed around an agenda which plays to the perceived and manufactured concerns of the english voter: but that agenda is designed to mislead along the lines of Project Fear in the indyref campaign. As Rev Stu has often said, the real issues of democracy are excluded from the debate, which prefers to pretend it is all about economics and trade. The out camp do talk about sovereignty, which is a proxy for democratic accountability, but I expect that to be airbrushed out of media coverage largely, as it was in Scotland.

    I am not averse to considering this from a Scottish perspective, but I do not agree with the post about how that plays out for Scottish independence. This is for a few reasons, which are broadly guesses, but so is any position.

    First: Mr Daniels accepts that the Scottish people will demand an indyref if Scotland votes in and rUK gets a majority for out. This is indeed the view of the SNP, as I understand it. I do not necessarily agree, because I do not see this as a central issue for much of the electorate. Like Mr Daniels I have only anecdotal evidence for this, and I fully accept that it may become such an issue in course of the campaign. But I do not think that many are wedded to EU membership for its own sake. Some are pro remain, and some are passionate. But not many, in my experience. As others have said, from a Scottish point of view it is pretty much a side show. That being so, I do not think it is a make or break issue for many. So I am not persuaded it would have the predicted effect. Folk will be resentful but we know that unionists have lived with this democratic deficit forever. Fact is that they see UK as one constituency, and the rest of us don’t. It may persuade some as another (very stark) eg of that deficit. But most are at best ambivalent about EU membership already, IMO.

    Second: if Scottish votes determine the outcome and therefore UK remains despite a leave vote in UK, there will be outrage in England, I am sure. And I agree it might have the effect outlined: that in a second indyref rUK would be supporting independence for us in a future vote. But would the media? I think not. The actual reasons for opposing Scottish independence are primarily resource based and that won’t change. Nor will the government’s stance change. We have seen that ordinary english voters don’t much matter since they don’t have a vote. That will still apply, and the propaganda thrust will not be substantially different whatever the outcome of this vote. Or so I think

    I understand the notion that we should think tactically and leave our real preference till after independence. On many issues I agree with that position, but not here. This is because I do not wish to be a member of the EU. My reason is exactly the same as my reason for wishing for independence: I do not want to live in a neoliberal plutocracy. To me, if Scotland votes to remain, and that view prevails (which I think it will), there is little prospect of a vote on the issue in the foreseeable future after independence. As you see, I do not think I will get my preferred option anyway because I think that project fear will win in england as it did in scotland over independence. I cannot be confident that would not put the issue to bed for a very long time, even after independence. Not least because another radical change would be a daunting thing for the electorate as the SNP calculated when they laid out their stall in Sep 14. I think that was a mistake, particularly over currency, but I do not believe the parties would not make the same calculation after independence.

    That ATL author predicates some of his argument on the idea that we would wish to be in the EU as an independent state. But that denies the reality that some of us do not want that at all. Thus he presumes his conclusion and that part of his argument makes little sense to me, as one who wishes to leave.

    BTL some have raised the point that without the protections of the EU we would be at the mercy of unfettered tory rule. And that is true, for now. I have seen the same point made repeatedly on twitter and elsewhere. But ask yourself if that would truly make independence less likely? I don’t think so. I believe that many support independence because they wish to live in a different kind of society: certainly I do. Therefore, to me, the naked plutocracy of this government, unrestrained, will make its character clear to some who have not yet realised that the post war consensus is truly over, and the aims of the plutocrats are not in line with their aspirations. What used to be true, that there were common goals but different views on means, is gone. There are no common goals of that sort any more. This is masked by the rhetoric of the consensus, because the plutocrats do know that most are still wedded to a mixed economy and the values of the welfare state, even after decades of work which have shifted the middle ground in their direction. They have no wholly succeeded even in England (though they have made a lot of progress, sadly)

    It follows that unfettered tory govt may well assist in gaining a majority for independence. That is a charge which unionists recognise when they allege that secretly Ms Sturgeon wants tory govt, etc. She does not. But there is truth in the proposition that it might further independence, nonetheless. She does not what it because of principle, which they cannot even understand. Nor do I because of the awful effects on our people. But it is still true that it might help the cause of independence, in the event.

    As well as that cyncical point, it is worth noting that the protections are illusory in any case. In the past the social chapter did afford some genuine positives, because the EU was a two stream enterprise: it was an economic vision and a social vision. That is no longer true. It is my view that the tensions inherent in those contradictory strands were the familiar tensions betwween a social democracy and a plutocracy. They are irreconcileable absent the post war consensus model, and as within the UK that model has been abandoned. As in the UK the plutocrats won. As in the UK the people have been slow to recognise the change, which is disguised by the rhetorc as it is here. But the EU is by now a tool of the plutocracy, and the lip service to social protection does not reflect a reality any more. What happened to Greece could not have happened if this were not so. TTIP couldn’t either.

    To me the EU is reaping support from a respectable past, just as labour did for ages after the substance had altered irrevocably. And this needs to be recognised too.

    In addition I honestly believe that the tide is turning all over europe, not least in England. Corbyn’s popularity is an instance of this as are the mass protests in europe over TTIP. The idea that the plutocrats are permanently in power is a counsel of despair, and I do not believe it is true. Indeed I think that is impossible, because their policies do not work and while it takes a surprisingly long time for folk to wake up, they do in the end. We are seeing it now, I hope and believe.

    But when they do it is much easier to change direction in one sovereign country than it is in an institution like the EU, where the plutocratic bubble is immune from democracy to a greater extent.

    If we leave the EU I think that the unfettered tory will improve the chances of independence, in reality. Even if that is not so, I think leaving has a greater prospect of a return to social democracy in the medium term than remaining in this banker’s club

  326. Ghillie says:

    Fiona @ 10.08am

    Of course you must do what you need to do.

  327. robrtknight says:

    Anyone who thinks that Westmonster will simply roll over and allow Holyrood another go at an Indy Referendum is frankly barking!

    Without the legal authority as conveyed by the UK Govt. last time around, any referendum will be seen as a mere ‘consultative exercise’, with no legal standing.

    With the help of the Unionist parties, it would likely be subject to a boycott by those who would otherwise vote “No”, thereby decreasing its perceived legitimacy in the eyes of the EU due to a lower turnout and skewed result.

    Given that, there is no way the EU would recognise a victory for “Yes” for fear of bringing about the ‘Balkanisation of Britain’ and being blamed for such by the rUK and its allies, especially the USA.

    In the absence of any legal authority from the UK Government, and it’d be a cold day in hell before they’d give it, it’s very much a case of “Good morning Scotland, welcome to Catalonia!!!”

  328. Fiona says:

    @ Ghillie

    Thanks. Your response shows the reality of a broad and accepting church in the independence movement, though it is not universally in evidence.

    I hope that I have at least made some points to consider re this vote, though I do not expect many to alter their position.

  329. Petra says:

    @ Fiona at 10:08am …. ”To me, if Scotland votes to remain, and that view prevails (which I think it will), there is little prospect of a (EU) vote on the issue in the foreseeable future after independence.”

    I think if Scotland becomes Independent and the Scots are unhappy with their relationship with the EU they wont be long in letting Holyrood know. The Scots will make their voices heard, will be listened to (for a change) and if they have to will demand an in / out EU Referendum.

  330. Fiona says:

    If they care enough about it I am sure you are correct, Petra. But I think the feeling would have to be very strong because there would be so much else to deal with post independence. Doubt it is a high priority in those circs, and most pols will not wish to offer a referendum unless they must, for reasons contained in the ATL post

  331. Fred says:

    Sillars problem is the same as it’s always been, his ego. & like Gordon Wilson another has-been, they’re known to the press & always available for a quote. They should be away growin tomatoes or gaun for nice walks.

    For the next four months we will have to suffer the insufferable, Boris, Farage, Wilson, Sillars & Galloway! ego’s desperately in search of a massage.

    @ Onward, why don’t we just have a Scottish referendum next week? because we would lose that’s why!

  332. crazycat says:

    @ Fiona

    Well said; I agree with you. My first big political campaign was Common Market No in 1975, and nothing I’ve seen since persuades me that I was wrong. I’m even less keen on the EU.

    My vote to leave will be a matter of conscience, not tactics. There may be “no point” to it, but I’m not doing it to make a point, I’m wanting to be able to live with myself afterwards! If that makes me an imbecile in Stevie Cosmic’s eyes, I can live with that too.

    I don’t, however, plan to campaign this time – other people can make up their own minds and if they like the arguments presented here, that’s fine.

  333. Peter C says:

    I have enormous respect for Sillars, and still do, and I agree with his view that an independent Scotland would be much better of by not being in the EU. However, I don’t agree with him that we should be voting Out at this point in time.

    On this basis I’ll be voting to Stay – but it will be with a very heavy heart.

    Problem is do I trust the SNP to put this to a vote after independence is achieved? Unfortunately, I think the answer to that is no – I don’t trust the SNP one inch on this matter. (And, yes, I am an SNP voter – x2 for the coming elections.) I don’t trust the SNP on this one bit.

  334. Awizgonny says:

    @ Doug Daniel

    “Identifying the likely outcomes depending on how you vote is not trying to make the case for independence.”

    No, but it is trying to persuade people in Scotland to vote Remain in order make a second Scottish Independence Referendum more likely.

    My point in reference to this is that 1) It’s extremely unlikely that England will vote Leave, and 2) It’s by no means certain that the Scottish electorate would support another Referendum on its basis.

    Your call to vote Remain is therefore based on two extremely questionable scenarios, one of which is based on an extremely simplistic view of the English electorate which has no truth. I know this, because I live in Yorkshire, population equivalent of Scotland, and the views I have heard here are extremely diverse.

    We should not taint our principles on the back of this unlikely contingency.

  335. cirsium says:

    Good article and discussion. Thanks Doug and the Wings community.

    I’m with Fiona. I want out of this non-imperial empire (as Manuel Barroso described the EU when he was President of the European Commission).

  336. Rock says:

    Thepnr,

    “Why Rock are you raising this now?”

    That is why:

    Thepnr,

    “@ahundredthidiot

    You and Rock have a lot in common, ye’re both at the wind up.”

    If you want to interfere unnecessarily on comments I post, be prepared to be confronted.

    I keep a record of comments I make so I know exactly what we have argued about before.

  337. Rock says:

    Thepnr,

    You were talking about embracing Tories AFTER the referendum when I was suggesting that no resources should be wasted on those diehard British nationalists in future.

    Since then you have been attacking comments I make just for the sake of attacking, as you did again last night.

  338. K1 says:

    Lol Rock, you are a card! Huv we aw goat a file or is thpnr yer favourite?

  339. sparks says:

    If you don’t vote for what you truly believe and stick with your convictions then you are no better than a bullingdon club boy behaving like a spoiled brat to get their own way. Where do you stop in selling out your beliefs once you have set the first step onto that path? You will always claim it wasn’t really you but for the ‘better good’> If you keep telling yourself that you will believe it one day and will manage to give your acceptance and support all sort of unplesant issues. Stay true to yourself, respect democracy , be above the morally bankrupt.

  340. Fiona says:

    http://linkis.com/www.counterfire.org/lR2Ks

    Good article about reasons to vote to leave EU. Worth a read, I think

  341. Thomas Brotherston says:

    It was Marx who said” I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club who would have me as a member!”. That’s Groucho Marx the Jewish comedian not Karl Marx the Jewish born philosopher by the way.
    Kind of sums up the EU vote though. I will be voting to leave the EU partly to remove the cancerous influence of the most reactionary British government from the counsels of Europe, I mean how many Neo liberal fanatics can the working class of Europe deal with at once.
    Remember everyone who votes to support continued membership of the EU will be foisting Cameron into the leadership of the European Neo liberal movement and onto the long suffering working people of Europe. Where’s our class solidarity?

    Now it’s no surprise that a club of Neo liberals leaders would be anxious to keep onside one of its most fanatical leaders. In fact were Britain to leave it could bring down the whole European project. This would open a whole number of possibilities for advancing the interests of the working classes of Europe.
    What is shocking is a that the leader of a party claiming to be anti austerity and determined to lead our nation to independence is peddling the idea that we can be independent inside the EU.

    Let us remember this, the referendum was lost because we could not convince the people of Scotland to support the vision of an independent Scotland put forward by the SNP. In fact the SNP leadership initially tried to water down the question to put Devo Max on the ballot paper and it was when that choice was removed by Cameron that they then began to campaign for a YES vote.

    If we are to build a Scotland that meets the needs of its working people then that can’t be built on a lie. The decisions we will need to take to rebuild the industrial base of our country will immediately bring us into conflict with EU law. Remember we have already heard this played out in the cases of Scotrail and CalMac. It was poverty of vision for a Scotland that could have been that lost us the referendum. We will be treated to the intrepid leaders of the SNP regurgitating all the poisonous pap used by Project Fear and Better Together to coerce the scots to remain in the UK only this time it will be to frighten us into remaining in a union every bit as reactionary and undemocratic as Westminster

  342. Petra says:

    @ Fiona says at 1:13 pm …. ”If they care enough about it I am sure you are correct, Petra. But I think the feeling would have to be very strong because there would be so much else to deal with post independence. Doubt it is a high priority in those circs, and most pols will not wish to offer a referendum unless they must, for reasons contained in the ATL post.”

    Strange one. I can’t figure out why anyone who truly wanted Independence would vote to leave the EU. Vote to leave the EU, and if successful, still be shackled to Westminster. A Westminster untethered by the EU, Scotland without protection from the EU, would find the Scots at the total mercy of an extreme right-wing Government. On Brexit jobs will be lost and from where I wonder? Overall it sounds like a real nightmare to me.

    The EU, warts .. some very big …. and all, is at least a partnership of (28) equals. With Westminster, alone, calling the shots Scotland is dominated by ONE entity whose powerful elite use the (vast) majority English vote to quash the Scots at every turn and that …. majority …. will never change. Add to that EVEL.

    Until now the EU has protected us from Westminster’s extremely severe policies for example in relation to employment rights and health and safety regulations. We’re still in the EU but can clearly see right now that the Tories are trying to dismantle trade union rights across the UK. Who …. what’s to stop them from doing what they like in future?

    And take a look at the cold callous Tory ministers who want to leave the EU such as Priti Patel and Iain Duncan Smith who have no regard for the well-being of the Scots (anyone) at all …. in particular the most vulnerable, disabled and so on.

    Then there’s Boris who may be the next Prime Minister if we Brexit who has no time for the Scots …. ”Scots should get no devolved powers at all”, on Alex Salmond ”you wouldn’t ask Herod to run a baby farm”, banning bagpipes being played on the streets of London and so on. David Cameron is akin to the Archangel Gabriel in comparison.

    You say that under the Tories things may get so bad that people will then vote for Independence. I say that under the Tories we’ll find ourselves living in a fascist state where gagging and surveillance of the populace will become the norm, union rights destroyed, human rights non-existant and with the media even more biased than before we’ll have little chance of changing anything at all …. becoming Independent.

    If we vote No for Brexit and then rid ourselves of Westminster we will find ourselves in a better position to rid ourselves of the EU in future if that’s what the Scots want (I may be one of them). It wont really be about the SG not wishing to hold a Referendum it’ll be about the majority of Scots telling them that they want one. Don’t forget we’d be living under Holyrood rule not Westminster.

    Good article about reasons to vote to stay in the EU. Worth a read, I think.

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/bexit-would-give-westminster-more-power-over-scotland/

  343. Fiona says:

    Your argument seems to be predicated on the foundation that the EU is more socially minded than WM. I disagree. The plutocrats run both, and there is not a sheet of paper between them. Imagining that the EU has protected us seems unsustainable to me, given Greece, Portugal Ireland, and on and on. What has been visited on them is what the elite intends for us all: on that both the EU and WM agree, for they are both fronts for the plutocrats. YOur argument seems to be to be a Project Fear, MK 2

    I also do not think that those who want independence should rely on protection from any one else: not WM as the unionists pretend is possible, and not the EU for exactly the same reasons.

    I do not agree that we are more likely to get independence if we vote to remain in the EU. Perhaps that is the basis of our disagreement. That is a judgement call.

  344. Petra says:

    Fiona my argument is not based on the EU being more ‘socially minded’ than WM or vice versa at all. I don’t know where you get that idea from?

    I’m VERY well aware of EU shortcomings and of course there’s no need for me to state on here what I think of Westminster. Both are focused on lining the pockets of the ‘gravy train riders’ and at the end of the day I would love to see us rid ourselves of both, sooner than later.

    Whatever way you look at it there are four different types of end game scenarios here. The UK remains a member of the EU (all in). The UK leaves the EU (all out). rUK votes to leave the EU and Scotland votes to remain. Indyref2 is called for, Scotland gets its Independence (hopefully) and continues to be a member of the EU or Scotland somehow manages to rid itself of both Westminster and the EU without being Independent of course.

    I don’t want to be ruled by Westminster AND the EU. I DEFINITELY don’t want to be ruled by Westminster without the protection (to some extent) of the EU and getting rid of both concurrently would be a massive and maybe fatal step to take. It leaves me with attempting to get rid of one before the other that is Westminster first by voting to stay in the EU and as mentioned already if we get our Independence it would be easier to then opt out of the EU under Holyrood if the majority of Scots so wished.

    And who knows with all that’s happening, 28 countries having a say (to a greater or lesser degree of course) rather than ONE, the EU MAY change for the better over time in a way that Westminster will never do.

    As to relying on the EU for protection any time in the future I’m not, however they have offered protection from some of Westminster’s ‘excesses’ up until now.

    Only time will tell of course but whatever way you look at it (out or in wins) voting for Brexit means that without a shred of doubt we’ll be shackled to Westminster, with no idea of what they plan for us next or who will be Prime Minster in future such as Boris Johnston or Theresa May.

    Voting to remain in the EU gives us at least a chance of getting rid of at least one plutocracy and with Independence our position is enhanced in getting rid of the other, imo.

  345. Derek McLean says:

    Jim Sillars isn’t wrong, but while the Tories are trying to remove human rights in order to impose austerity that currently would be illegal, I’m voting to stay in.

  346. Ken500 says:

    The EU Union and the UK Union are totally different organisations. EU Union benefits Scotland. UK Union doesn’t. Totally different rules, regulation and control. Europe has 1% control over Scotland’s economy. Westminster has 99% total control over Scottish economy. (taxes etc) The EU has only control over VAT rates concurred over all EU members for equal trade reasons. Westminster has total control over Scolands tax rates.

    EU has light touch good social directives.Westminster does not – Total control

    EU 1% control did not cause the problems in Greece, Portugal, IR etc their individual governments decisions did. Many problems were related to borrowing on London lending markets and the US/UK banking crisis. The individual countries were over borrowing. Extending their debt ratios.

  347. Ken500 says:

    Basically the countries who ended up in trouble in the EU were breaking Eurozone rules, (not all EU members are in the Eurozone) 18 out of 27? – 2/3 rd of EU members are members of the Eurozone – Euro. Portugal, IR, Greece joined the Eurozone but each individual gov did not follow the Eurozone rule of ratio of debt to capital. They could have joined the EU but not have committed themselves to Eurozone membership which should have been discussed when their membership was bring discussed.

  348. A man who left the Labour party,and joined the SNP he stood for the leaders position and failed,he took the huff and it has kept him sniping ever since.Nothing is good enough for Jim he would always do it differently he knows best and all the rest are daft,all of us have blind loyalty,no we don’t we have the same hope and know that splitting like Jim has done on three occasions that come to mind because he never got first prize or it never went his way,he has plenty sour grapes probably a vine growing them.I always thought he seemed to think he should get more than the rest of us.

  349. Dougal McAllister says:

    Re-read this for the second time and I agree totally with the logic behind voting to stay in the EU in Scotland.

    I also read this: “(And anyway, this scenario is about as likely to happen as the Lib Dems winning a mainland constituency in May.)”

    I can finally blame someone for jinxing the assumption of the Lie Dims winning a mainland constituency 🙂

  350. defo says:

    Aye’s on the prize.
    Get with the message.

  351. Peter Clive says:

    The EU ref has become an English indyref that is as ugly as it is unnecessary

    http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2016/06/project-fear-squared.html



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