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Wings Over Scotland


Cresting the rising tide

Posted on November 15, 2016 by

There’s been a running theme recently on Unionist social media.

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It’s the claim that the No vote in 2014 was an anomaly – a rare victory of progressive, internationalist, inclusive politics over the anti-establishment, isolationist, separatist tone that won out in the EU referendum and now the election of Donald Trump.

This was the case back even before and just after the independence referendum, where the Yes movement was being compared to the far-right populist movements of England, France, and the Netherlands:

Of course, the alternative view is rather simpler – that perhaps the forces that won the EU referendum and 2016 presidency also won the independence referendum.

(WARNING: While I’m not going to reproduce any of the material or quotes from some of the individuals or groups listed below on the site, I will be including archived links. While I disagree with many of the views to the most profound degree, neither do I wish to pretend they do not exist: I also want to provide sources for my conclusion as to where they stand on any of the three campaigns. Keep this in mind before you click.)

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Right to far-right: Gerry Gunster, (the US analyst who ran the Leave campaign); Arron Banks, (major UKIP donor & co-chair of Leave.EU); Donald Trump (US President-Elect); Nigel Farage (former UKIP leader); Andy Wigmore, (major UKIP donor & Director of Communications for Leave.eu); and Raheem Kassam, (UKIP leadership hopeful & Breitbart London Editor in Chief).

Let’s have a look at some of the individuals or organisations who were involved with, or supportive of, the winning side in the Scottish independence referendum, the EU referendum, and the Donald Trump presidential campaign.

Blood & Honour

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Breitbart News

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Britain First

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

British Democratic Party

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

British National Party

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Candour Magazine

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Philip Davies MP

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Michael Fabricant MP

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Nigel Farage

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

George Galloway

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Nick Griffin

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Liberty GB

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Eddy Morrison (National Front/BNP/others)

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump: SUPPORTIVE

National Action

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

National Front

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Jacob Rees-Mogg MP

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Tommy Robinson (Former leader, EDL)

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Scottish Defence League

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Iain Duncan Smith MP

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

Donald Trump

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

UKIP

Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE

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Now, it’d be unfair to tarnish the anti-independence movement by association with the above organisations and individuals (not that such unfairness ever stopped No supporters from doing just that to Scottish independence supporters, of course).

After all, plenty of professed left-wing, socialist, anti-war folk supported No, Leave, and Trump – George Galloway being the most infamous example. Likewise, there are plenty of people who support only one or two of the above, and found themselves on the losing side of at least one referendum or election.

Of course not every No/Leave/Trump supporter is a racist, or fascist, any more than every Yes/Remain/Clinton supporter was uniquely saintly: the vast majority of people are reasonable, thinking, compassionate human beings who voted they way they did because they thought it was best for them, their family, and their future.

The key difference is that those people have no control over the direction of what happens next. We aren’t getting Super-Devo-Plus-Max, because the parties & individuals interested in such a settlement have no power or opportunity to deliver it. We’re not getting a “Lexit,” because the left-wing Leave advocates have no power in the UK or Scottish Governments. Even in his first few days as President Elect, the likelihood of a tempered Trump is dropping by the day.

(Which is not to say there are no anti-EU, pro-Trump individuals who also advocate Scottish independence: tons of Eurosceptics like Arron Banks, Paul Joseph Watson, and others seemed perfectly fine with it, even encouraging, when it was perceived as bad news for the EU or a perceived soft UK, or they just wanted rid of subsidy-junkie Scotland. On the other hand, I doubt Jim Sillars is a big Trump fan despite advocating a Leave vote.)

The people and organisations listed above are 3 for 3. They got every result they wanted. Look at the post-indyref UK Government: it sure isn’t the government Scotland or progressives in England, Wales, & Northern Ireland voted for. Look at the post-EUref UK cabinet: full of Brexiters and the most right-wing elements of the party. The US cabinet is the same story, amplified on an American scale.

Either Blair MacDougall, Ian Smart, and others really, truly believe that the movement for Scottish independence really is the same as the rhetoric which fuelled a Leave vote in the UK and Trump in the USA, or they don’t and just lie about it. And let’s be unflinchingly clear: even the “moderates” in the “mainstream” parties, not to mention the official No campaign, were not above using their dog-whistle language.

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If Scotland wants to be independent they have the absolute right to do so. But I think nationalism is a mistake. And I am half Scots and feel it would divide me in half with a knife. The thought that my mother would suddenly be a foreigner would upset me very much.
– Tony Benn, 18th August 2012

We’ve got friends and relations north and south of the border and we don’t want to make each other foreigners.
– Alistair Darling, 31st August 2012

“I do not want my kids to be foreigners to each other” says Alan Cochrane. #bbbcqt #indyref
– Better Together’s official Twitter account, 18th October 2012

We have the spectacle of a hard line nationalist saying ‘you will still be British after independence’. If you are no longer part of the UK how can you be British? Your friends in Wales, your family in England and your workmates from Northern Ireland will, effectively and overnight, become foreigners.
– Alistair Darling, 10th November 2012

Alistair Darling will today accuse the SNP of attempting to ‘turn family into foreigners’ with its plan to break up Britain.
The Times, 14th February 2013

The Aberdeen schoolgirl said she and her friends were going to vote to remain part of the UK because they did not want their relatives in England to become foreigners.
The Telegraph, April 2013

The nature of my work means that I am based in London, like tens of thousands of Scots now facing the same prospect of becoming foreigners in our own land.
– Ian Taylor, 7th April 2013

In simple terms, why make Sir Alex Ferguson a foreigner?
– Johann Lamont, May 2013

My son, for example, who went to university in England, I think I’d be uncomfortable with the thought that he’s now a foreigner.
– Margaret Curran, 25th May 2013

So says the lady whose policy would make all English people foreigners! Irony is obviously still allowed on Twitter
– George Foulkes, 25th May 2013

Over 3 centuries we have lived together, worked together and frankly we’ve got together: getting married, having children, moving back and forward across our borders. Such is the fusion of our bloodlines that my surname goes back to the West Highlands and, by the way, I am as proud of my Scottish heritage as I am of my English or my Welsh heritage.
– David Cameron, 7th February 2014

Do you wantonly break up a union of 307 years, splitting kith from kin and wounding a nation… They are NOT good reasons for the break-up of a strong, democratic nation in an uncertain world… Nor can we forget how fully the blood of us all is mixed in the families of our four nations, or how freely it has flowed, as one, in war. We are, in tradition and effect, one nation.
– Lt. Gen. Sir Norman Arthur, letter distributed by Better Together, March 2014

A wonderful country and people in the grip of a narrow, divisive, arrogant, controlling and insular creed called Nationalism… My grandson in England, aged ten and quarter, looks utterly baffled and very sad at thought of his Grandparents being in danger of becoming foreigners. He keeps asking “Why Grandpa?”
– Dr Richard Marsh on Vote No Borders’ website, 21st June 2014

How will independence affect the identity of Scots like me who feel both Scottish and British? With a home in Scotland can I no longer be British? Will I be stopped at the border every time that I travel between England and Scotland? What will happen to all those Scots who live and work south of the border? Will their place of birth still be their home, or will they become foreigners in their native land?
– The Earl of Glasgow, 24th June 2014

I say to the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, that yes, they will be made foreigners in their own country. Their own children and grandchildren will be disenfranchised of their birthright.
– Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, 24th June 2014

I do not want my granddaughter to become a citizen in a foreignland, and she does not want her cousins—the children of my other son, who live in London—to be foreigners, with different passports.
– Lord Cormack, 24th June 2014

As regards race, there are different races in the United Kingdom but the Scots do not make up a separate race. Otherwise, if we voted yes on the 18th, my brothers, my sister, my nephews and my nieces would not only become foreigners but would also be part of a different race, which is just unimaginable.
– Lord Maxton, 24th June 2014

Like the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, I have two grandchildren living in Scotland with a Scottish mother and an English father, and two grandchildren living just outside Cambridge with a Scottish mother and an English father. One set of them will be foreigners. Whichever way we go, the family living in England are going to have foreign cousins and the family living in Scotland are going to have foreign cousins.
– Baroness Adams of Craigielea, 24th June 2014

I don’t want my kids to feel like Scotland is going to become a foreign country.
– Ed Miliband, 4th July 2014

However proud Scots may be of their heritage Scotland, by official definitions, is not a nation state. Moreover, the people of today’s Scotland are of the same mixed ethnicity as the rest of the UK… Not only do we share common and deeply integrated ethnicity in the UK, we share a universal culture and a common love of our different regional cultures.
– Tony Rush, 8th July 2014

For sure, there must be change. We must have that, and we will, but not by tearing this country apart. We must stay as family, not become foreigners to each other.
– Harriet Harman, 10th September 2014

Suddenly Scots who work next to us live next to us are our friends, our neighbours, our work mates suddenly become foreigners. Is that not an extraordinary proposition for a nation that had marched together?
– John Major, 10th September 2014

But for me this is a question of the heart and the soul. I don’t want my parents to become foreigners to my children. I don’t want the example of tolerance, fairness and courage Britain has set to disappear. I don’t want our nation diminished.
– Michael Gove, 12th September 2014

The process of separation and vilification is depressing to watch but familiar enough. Scottish nationalists are preparing a rarer trick, last seen in the dying days of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. They are trying to break up an existing multi-national state and turn neighbours into foreigners.

Hundreds of thousands of Scots meanwhile live in the rest of the UK and hundreds of thousands of English, Welsh and Irish people live in Scotland. They could become foreigners in their own country.
– Nick Cohen, 16th September 2014

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Better Together preyed on fears of “kith and kin” becoming “foreigners”, appealed to shared “bloodlines” and “ethnicity”, and talked of the turmoil of “borders” and the loss of “our land”. Then their parties and papers continued it during the general election, with immigration mugs and endless poisonous headlines about refugees.

They used “foreign” as if it was a curse, an affliction, an undesirable trait – which is exactly what the far-right believes. And now they have the gall to act surprised at the results, and utterly fail to see the same forces at work across the ocean.

And even after the Brexit vote they haven’t learned a thing.

Twiterstorm (sic) tonight. Apparently many Nats don’t undersatand (sic) that “independence” would mean that their English realtives (sic) would be foreigners.
– Alex Gallagher, 6th October 2016

enjoying SNP supporters on my timeline arguing that if we were independent, the English wouldn’t be foreigners
– The UK’s Greatest Economist, 6th October 2016

SNP would turn English people living in Scotland into foreigners in their own country. Of course it’s uncomfortable for them
– Ruth Davidson’s favourite blogger, 15th October 2016

A No vote didn’t stop the forces who were victorious this year. In fact, in 2014 the No campaign rode that tide to victory – indeed, spurred it on with the evocation of its toxic language – because preserving the United Kingdom was worth any cost. Even if it meant turning a blind eye to the deluge looming darkly over the horizon.

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    1. 15 11 16 19:56

      Cresting the rising tide | speymouth

    2. 31 12 16 13:22

      Wasted Years | A Wilderness of Peace

    396 to “Cresting the rising tide”

    1. Add the CPB and the CPGB.

    2. Liz g says:

      Great Article Al.
      Your very quick pointing out how they are trying to twist things…well done

    3. Truth says:

      Amazing post.

      Smart et al may not be lying. They might simply fundamentally misunderstand the facts of the situation.

      I’m being serious. It is incredible the amount of factual ignorance I have uncovered in talking to no voters.

    4. JGedd says:

      Already read this excellent piece on Wilderness of Peace. Well done for publishing this on Wings. Thoroughly deserves to be aired widely. Well done Al.

    5. ScottishPsyche says:

      What an excellent article. This really gets to the heart of what the BetterTogether, Leave and Trump campaigns had in common. Also how each one learned and how they fed off the other.

      We have to use this for Indyref 2.

    6. Dan Huil says:

      Spot on, Al. The No campaign was one of fear and misinformation. Let these britnat reactionaries carry on believing their own lies, it will make winning IndyRef2 that little bit easier. IndyRef2 will be won for Yes not because of fear but because of hope.

    7. Effijy says:

      They seem to miss the point that Scots are already, and always have been, treated as foreigners, second class brits

      Please feel free to make me a permanent foreigner if it breaks all ties with a Westminster who gave Scotland Food Banks, and put almost 1 in 4 Scottish Children into poverty

      All this after stealing £3 Trillion worth of our oil money,
      denying us access to information such as the McCrone Report, the Dunblane massacre, and a Brexit strategy,

      I am not English, I do not wish to be British, I am Scottish.

    8. heedtracker says:

      Slandering YES Scots as Donald Trump voters aside, it just shows how tory MacDougal and SLab are. They still think they’re the established elite of Scotland with tory media dudes like Kenfarq are their enablers.

      Socialist worker SLabour. Bliar MacDougal thinks he’s a member of the British ruling elite but he kept it very quiet running and developing Project Fear 2014.

      And is Kenfarq a member of the UKOK elite too? more of a Murdoch running dog lackey really, a henchman.

    9. Robert Louis says:

      What an excellent article. The better together campaign were the ones who helped fuel a lot of this that is now happening. Their cheap rhetoric, which they felt was a price worth paying, demonised ‘foreigners’.

      And now we are where we are today. Those people, Brown, darling, the whole shabby bunch have an awful lot to answer for. Of course the destruction of Scotland at England’s Tory hands won’t affect them. The damage already being caused by brexit, will pass them by. They’re all doing just fine, with their ermine clad pensions, and after dinnner speech fees.

      Champagne ‘socialists’, the whole damn lot.

      As for Trump and his neo-fascist freak show, god help us all.

    10. Stoker says:

      Al Harron wrote:

      “Better Together preyed on fears….”

      Blair McDougall (Head Poodle of Better Together) suggested:

      “Scotland might have voted for independence in last week’s referendum if his campaign had made a positive case for the union, rather than scaremongering about economic risks.”

      Source: The Wee Black Book (p65).

      “We Would Have Struggled To Win Without Scaremongering”
      (Blair McDougall in BuzzFeedNEWS)

    11. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Good job Al, this’ll help keep the wrath warm…

      Priceless documentary evidence, and really quite shocking to see it gathered together.

      McDougall, Smart, Darling and the rest of them have an awful lot to answer for.

    12. davidb says:

      Me:-

      Yes
      Remain
      The internal affairs of other countries are their own business.

    13. panda paws says:

      Read this on Al’s site but it deserves wider readership so really pleased it’s been reproduced on WoS.

      Thanks Al for all your hard work in producing this. It’s amazing what half educated tenement Scots can do when they put their minds to it 🙂

    14. HandandShrimp says:

      Vote No was primarily right wing and reactionary. It had the support of Labour in Scotland but the money backing them was Conservative. There was nothing progressive or internationalist about the tone of their arguments. The UKOK campaign fed straight into the Leave campaign…as horrified as people like Brown might be about that in retrospect.

    15. Ian McCubbin says:

      Good for you pointing out the beginnings of more potential deceit and lies by spurious association.

      For me we all in Scotland should continue to act and believe we are independent.
      We should support Scottish Gov in leading the way in foreign negotiating in relation to Scottish matters or matters affecting Scotland.
      Support for other independent organisations by more of us will give us knowledge and confidence to challenge such nonsense.
      Affiliation by more of us with true free press and media like your blog will inform us.

    16. Ali says:

      While being basically true this disregards the fact that the English are already foreigners in Scotland. If you doubt it you could only do so from the position of not being English. Being English with a Scottish accent in Scotland means I hear all the anti-English banter while people think they are among only “their own” – hearing other people referred to as “that English c*nt” for example.

    17. Brian Powell says:

      Will the members, activists of Slab and the LibDems still campaign and support them?

    18. Valerie says:

      Great work and research by Al.

      I think the collected comments about independence causing our neighbours being ‘foreign’ just looks like collective stupidity, but it must have played well for some at least.

      Just as an aside, I can’t quite believe how the media seems to have stepped up providing a platform for the more disgusting elements of UKIP.

      Although nothing should surprise us anymore when Marr gave Le Pen a platform on Remembrance Sunday. His snivelling excuses for it, were even more of an affront.

    19. heedtracker says:

      2014, UKOK elitist Blair, almost certainly cooked up

      “A No vote would lead to faster, fairer, safer and better change and that draft legislation for new powers for…”

      Under UKOK elitists like ours, its certainly been faster change, with no new powers, and we’re no longer European citizens. None of that matters to elites like these guys though.

    20. Hamish100 says:

      Ali

      Sorry about that. Dont you tell folk your are English so you shame them into apologising or do you prefer to be a mole ?
      A number of my family are Scots with English accents (its an armed forces thing).
      The stories they tell. They are too conditioned to just smile at the comments made about the Jocks.

      Mind you I got called a racist by an English neighbour during Indy ref1 for supporting indyref1. Shouted at the top of her voice too at the polling station until she was told off by 2 English folk who were Indy supporters.She called them ("Tractor" - Ed)s instead.

    21. heedtracker says:

      Classic elitist Blair tweet? holding back the Scottish barbarian at the UKOK elite gate, me:D

      Better Together ? @UK_Together
      What is process for removing our EU citizenship? Voting yes. #scotdecides
      9:21 PM – 2 Sep 2014

    22. Brian McGrath says:

      Funny. I have family who are Americans and they are no less family than my family in Scotland or my South African born cousins, one of whom live in England now or even my own brother who now lives and works to a New Zealander who herself is an English immigrant to New Zealand.

      Family is more than a border or a nation and it friendship is the same.

      My girlfriend is English and we both live in Wales and this doesn’t make me less Scottish or her less English, although she support Wales anytime they are playing rugby against anyone but England but then she has lived here for many years.

    23. Bob Mack says:

      @Ali,

      Being called a c*#t is Scotland is almost a compliment. I have had mates say that to me many times along with many other expletives.. Hard to understand I know,but true.

    24. Brian McGrath says:

      The above passage is what happens when you forget to read back what you posted. Apologies for the diabolic English.

      I meant to say my brother lives and works in New Zealand and is married to a New Zealander who’s family emigrated from England to New Zealand. Also I don’t think she sees her family in England as foreigners…just family.

    25. Valerie says:

      @ Ali 7.14

      Aye?

      Did you address the racism you heard? You can call folk a c#nt without bringing their origins into the matter.

      Easy enough to put them right.

    26. John J. says:

      Ali.

      I know a lot of foreigners, a lot of them are English, I rather like them. It’s the LITTLE f*****g Englanders I don’t like.

    27. Rock says:

      Ali,

      “Being English with a Scottish accent in Scotland means I hear all the anti-English banter while people think they are among only “their own” – hearing other people referred to as “that English c*nt” for example.”

      I guess the Scots developed this mentality after being sold to England and remaining colonised and second class citizens for more than three hundred years.

      Like the English developed the mentality that Scots are scroungers living on English money.

      Totally deplorable.

    28. John J. says:

      Oh!

      And also, I’m English.

    29. Albert Herring says:

      @Ali

      C#*t is just Scots for person.

    30. John J. says:

      Oh!

      And I’m English.

    31. K1 says:

      ‘Being English with a Scottish accent in Scotland means I hear all the anti-English banter while people think they are among only “their own”

      Let’s replace English with Scottish/Welsh/American/Indian/Pakistani/Romanian/any other nationality ye can think of and let’s replace Scotland with England/Wesh/American/Indian/Pakistan/Romanian/any other nationality ye can think of.

      Now let’s see if that way of speaking about other nationalities is more a ‘universal’ ‘human’ tendency to utilise the ‘defininning’ ”different from ‘us’ characteristic (this also of course extends to skin colour/gender/sexual orientation et al), in ‘casual but accepted’ forms of everyday ‘bigoted’ ‘racist’ ‘sexist’ conversational ‘norms’ (or ‘banter’ as you yourself referred to it) existent is all Nations?

      We’re ‘aw’ foreigners outwith our ‘local’ geographical/cultural reference bases.

      Whit’s yer point? That at the heart of it Scotland is somehow ‘intrinsically’ ‘anti-English’?

      Yer ontae plumbs wi that ‘insinuation’. Nae mair the case than at the heart of it England is somehow ‘intrinsically’ ‘anti-Scottish’ because someone from England refers amongst their ‘ain’ tae ‘that Scottish cunt’.

    32. Scott says:

      Excellent article.

    33. ScottishPsyche says:

      @Ali

      This might be a revelation but there are unpleasant people everywhere. My husband in the Oil business heard all sorts about Scottish people but he has a neutral accent so they could not place hime. He was supposed to laugh along. He would put people right and the reactions varied. Some were embarrassed, some were even more hostile.. He never tarred every English person or every American with the same brush.

      As far as calling people c*nts – well everybody is a c*nt in Scotland. Big c*nts, wee c*nts, red-haired c*nts, Edinburgh c*nts…

      That was therapeutic.

    34. sydthesnake says:

      like Brian McGrath my brother lives in NZ, he is married to a New Zealander, they have a son and daughter, Brian is my brother, Jane is my sister in-law, Emma is my niece and James is my nephew, I look upon them as FAMILY not Foreigners, these yoons should be given laxatives to ensure the shite comes out the correct end.

      Syd

    35. Robert Graham says:

      excellent piece and deserves a wider audience .

      Will this information be covered or refered to by our media NOPE .

      Lets face it a lot of our fellow countrymen are just plain stupid , and probably believe the VOW even now was delivered , you can see it when their eyes glaze over if the subject is raised then its fingers in the ears time it’s like talking to a wall , depressing but i suppose if people on wings and other sites didn’t care who would ? .
      Onwards and Upwards as they say .

    36. Sandy says:

      OT
      Just received an E-mail from Douglas Ross, MSP, regarding the tenant farmer family on Arran currently being evicted.
      It was so pathetic, a 99.9% attempt to gain political points. Little or nothing being done other than offer his sympathy & how he is trying his hardest to get things changed!
      He refers to the family in Arran as “THE FAMILY(IES) IN ARRAN”, not by name.
      PS. He is a football referee. When he books a player, does he take his name, no, he takes his number. What number has he given the Arran family?

    37. Jimmy says:

      This island was known as Britain long before the English appeared on the scene. They do not have a monopoly on the term British.

    38. so if Maggs Currans son moved to France,Ireland,NZ,USA

      she would

      “be uncomfortable with the thought that he’s now a foreigner”.

      bollocks.

    39. Chitterinlicht says:

      Makes me quite angry reading all that.

      Independence for me was all about democracy and responsibility not putting up borders and retracting into a wee Brigadoon bubble of ethnic ‘Scottishness’ because that place does not exist.

      Grumpy and wee bit sad.

    40. dakk says:

      Rock

      ‘I guess the Scots developed this mentality after being sold to England and remaining colonised and second class citizens for more than three hundred years.’

      Indeed,though the dominant Scots mentality is still unfortunately the cringe whereby most pander to England and the English at the expense of their own country.

      Ali and his kinsmen are seen as demigods by those Scots.

    41. mogabee says:

      Ali

      Believe me, being English born with a Scots accent I have in the past called out some English c**t.

      And Scottish, and American and Irish! Don’t take it personally…

    42. Erling says:

      I live in Denmark and I don’t consider people in the rest of Scandinavia as “real” foreigners.

    43. Grouse Beater says:

      The slur was first used in 1704 and became common currency.
      Blair MacDougall and the Fear Campaign resurrected it.

      See the paragraph highlighted in red: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-ou

    44. Juteman says:

      Just have a look at the folk celebrating in George Square to see who ‘won’ the referendum.

    45. frogesque says:

      I am English born, lived in Scotland for 50+ years. Moved to Scotland in my teens.

      The only place I feel I am a foreigner is in England. In Scotland I am home, anywhere else apart from England, I am a welcomed visitor.

    46. crisiscult says:

      Brit mentality and attitude to Scotland is like the Russian one toward Ukraine: you’re no different, you’re part of us; but having said that, you’re a backward, village idiot type version of us. Anyway, you shouldn’t have your own country because people in your country who think like us should run it.

      By the way, reading those nationalistic comments about blood and family makes my blood boil. So anyone in Scotland who doesn’t have family ties to England, Wales, or Northern Ireland, but does to Pakistan, France, Canada, or basically anywhere outside the UK, should read that as a ‘we’re not talking to you, just the properly racially developed, loyal people, not the mongrel types who mixed with foreigners’ I’m glad they’re not talking to me. You can keep your Brit exceptionalist inbred family.

    47. louis.b.argyll says:

      Too many, think they do us a favour, by telling us what to do.

      Heaven forbid should we have to make difficult decisions for ourselves.

      We need to ACT INDEPENDENTLY on their mistakes, as lessons are already learned.

    48. DerekM says:

      Great work Al that is a keeper going right into my files for future laying the smackdown on dumb ass yoons 🙂

      Please do not reply to the troll guys its a deliberate attempt to railroad the thread in another direction.

    49. msean says:

      I never fell for all that your families will be foreigners stuff,a lot of Scots have family abroad. Just think of the border changes in Europe alone over the last century,even over just the last few decades. It was all rubbish then,and it is now.

    50. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      So they sowed the wind but won’t take the blame as the rest of us are left to reap their whirlwind.

      Unfortunately for them most sensible and reasonable informed folk can joint the dots between the ‘Brexit’ and ‘Trump’ campaigns.

      Especially with Faradge (no typo) trying to kiss arse for a new job from the Republican Party for when he stops collecting his MEP wage.

      Thanks to this article from Al they can now join the dot between those two and the Right wing backers and supporters of ‘Better Together’.

    51. lumilumi says:

      Thank you, Al Harron, for this excellent, well-researched piece. I saw on Twitter that you even stumped Rev Stu to it! 😀

      The past few years have been a rollercoaster of previously “unthinkable” political outcomes. The nasty right-wingers always win and Scotland’s 1st indyref was no exception.

      What’s happening to our world?!

      The election that bucked the trend is, of course, the UK GE in 2015, with LabLibTory all but wiped out in Scotland (under the unionist-preferred FPTP system) and Scotland finally represented by MPs with Scotland’s interest at heart. But UK media shills never mention that.

      I just hope Scotland’s 2nd indyref will also buck the trend and be a win for decent people who’re worried, even horrified, about the rise of fascism in the UK (and the USA and France and other countries).

      Come on, we have to fight back! Denigrated as lefty-greenies or “Scot-nazis” or whatever, but we’re the nice people here. We have to make our voice heard. We’ve got to take our message to the grassroots and talk to and listen to ordinary people, reassure them and not alienate former NO voters by calling them “yoons” or “Britnat zoomers” or whatever. Be a truly inclusive movement for self-determination.

      I never thought back in 2011 or 2012 that things would turn out quite this way. It’s like we’re gone through the looking-glass and it’s a parallel universe. Only, we’re in the parallel universe and can’t get back to the real universe and slowly realise the parallel universe is the real universe…

    52. Alisdair says:

      Funnily enough where I come from (Strathearn) cunt is a term of endearment on occasion. Equally funny when I was growing up was that all the old timers stated that the Scots were mongrels and that there was no such thing as a Scottish race. I grew up to be an archaeologist and they were/are right. And if it wasn’t for foreigners I truly believe we would live such impoverished lives, after all like most I’m a bit partial to a curry, kebab, burger and chips and a roast beef lunch now and again. But then again I’m not a pig ignorant Unionist (apologies to pigs of course).

    53. Dan Huill says:

      We’re all foreigners to somebody. Saying that, I feel like a foreigner in my own country of Scotland whenever I hear the bbc on the radio.

    54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      As it happens, I have relatives who are “foreigners”, ie. citizens (by birth) of states other than the UK. I also have English relatives. They are all family, and I love them all dearly and equally. On independence, the English ones could presumably become Scottish if they wanted to. But I wouldn’t love them any differently either way.

      As the many quotations above reveal, which we all already well knew, this blut und bodem stuff was all on the BT side of the argument. The Yes campaign was as far away from this vile Trump/Farage-style “deport the aliens” rhetoric as it was possible to get. No-one suggested for a moment that English people living in Scotland would be made to take a hike (unlike what’s sometimes happening with EU citizens in England right now).

      So this “rising tide” talk is mendacious or sadly self-deluded guff. Slanderous, even. Whistling in the dark. They probably sense though that there really is a tide rising, the inexorable one coming with indyref2 to finally wash them and their lies away.

    55. lumilumi says:

      ah, I see several of you Wings BTL commenters have raised the “foreigner” thing.

      The way Britnats talk about it, being “foreign” is a BAD, BAD thing. Uhm… Isn’t that kind of fascist?

      Yeah, Nordics don’t consider each other “foreign”, just degrees of the same. Well, Finns are a bit weird and different but still part of the family. Yeah, we’ve got our fierce rivalries (Finland and Sweden ice hockey is one of the big ones) but we don’t really actually hate each other.

      To us, “foreign” countries are Germany, France, England… rest of the world. It’s not bad to be foreign. It’s interesting and exciting. We’re all foreigners outside our own country. Except the English, who, uniquely, are “ex-pats” and not foreigners or – gasp – immigrants – in a foreign country.

      Go figure.

    56. Swiss Perspective says:

      On the subject of foreigness.
      The delusion of the Unionists and later of the Brexiteers is that foreigness is defined solely by passports. I have relatives on both sides of my family with passports different from those of mine. I have never thought of them as being foreigners.

      As a Scot living abroad, I feel that this year even more than last England has become a place foreign to me. I don’t understand it any longer. A shared passport is of no consequence. Germany is a place far less foreign, as it’s ideas and political discourse are more inclusive that those of rUK. I just hope that Scotland can remain my home, and is not eventually engulfed by the same insanity that has befallen England.

    57. Sinky says:

      O/T Super National front page to-morrow. Unionist Labour Party supporters must see it.

      https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun?lang=en

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @Effijy says: 15 November, 2016 at 6:46 pm:

      ” … I am not English, I do not wish to be British, I am Scottish.”

      So, Effijy, when we have become independent how do you propose we should move Scotland out of Britain or even out of Great Britain?

      I’m British and I always will be as I live in Britain and I’m happy to do so. What I am that I do not want to be is in the United Kingdom. Furthermore, I do not want to leave the United Kingdom I want to end the United Kingdom as without Scotland there can be no united Kingdom.

      Wales ceased to be a Kingdom in 1284 by the Statute of Rhuddlan after the Kingdom of England defeated the last native born Prince of Wales and claimed Wales under the laws of Divine Right of Kings and Ireland ceased to be a kingdom in 1542 under the Crown of Ireland Act after the Kingdom of England defeated the Irish King in Battle and annexed Ireland.

      So there simply cannot be a United Kingdom with its only kingdom being the three country Kingdom of England.

      The Status Quo Ante on Scottish independence is to return to the status on the last day of March 1707 when there was only two Kingdoms. Then, on 1 May 1707 there was a united Kingdom formed by the Treaty of Union.

      I resent these Unionist attempting to rob me of my Britishness. By the way I am also a European and have been even before the United Kingdom, (Not Britain), became a member of the EC and then the EU.

      The fact is Britain will always be part of Europe even when England leaves the EU. Britain has never been a member state of the EU. The member state is The United Kingdom and parts of Britain have never been members of the EU.

      Now are you beginning to get why I keep harping on about the use of the correct terms? What would be a real skelp in the kisser for the Yoons is if every time they used the wrong term they were corrected and made to apologise. Think how they would lose face in the eyes of the World?

      Strangely the so called Queen of Britain does not exist any more than the Parliament of Britain.

    59. Proud Cybernat says:

      Great article Al. However, the problem as I see it is simply this–those on the Union side of this constitutional debate will simply never see or agree with ANY of what you place in front of them. They just won’t. They just don’t have the eyes to see beyond their own prejudices. They will continue to believe (and I mean they TRULY BELIEVE) that those of us who seek self-governance for Scotland and who wish to keep our position beside our EU friends are the fascists and isolationists.

      It is so wrong and so totally fucked up and only those who can look beyond the sick press and BBC in this country will ever be able to discern the truth of the situation.

      But a big thanks for shining a light and showing the way. I just hope come IndyRef#2 that our European friends here in Scotland who were terrorised into voting NO by the Better Together fascists who claimed that they would be kicked out of an Indy Scotland will now see the light and where the REAL threat to their future lies. It was NEVER with Indy Scotland but was ALWAYS with an inward-looking, anti-EU fascist England.

    60. Thepnr says:

      You would think that there would be a name for all those quoted by Al expressing fears such as their own children or other extended family becoming foreign in event of Scottish Independence.

      There is a name for this of course. Xenophobia.

      Xenophobia is derived from the Greek word ‘Xenos’ meaning “foreigner or stranger” and Phobos which means ‘morbid fear’. Xenophobia is the irrational sensation of fear experienced about a person or a group of persons as well as situations that are perceived as strange or foreign.

      Funny old world innit.

    61. Sinky says:

      More Misreporting Scotland from the BBC on Holyrood vote.

      BBC fail to mention that Labour abstained while Lib Dems and Tories voted against the substantive SNP motion, which did not mention Indy Ref2, and was supported by the Greens..

    62. Taranaich says:

      Thanks again, all. I figure braving all these horrendous websites was well worth it!

      @donald anderson: Add the CPB and the CPGB.

      I had CBP/SPGB on the anti-indy/anti-EU side, but didn’t know their stance on Trump.

      @Effijy: They seem to miss the point that Scots are already, and always have been, treated as foreigners, second class brits

      As far as I’m aware, “foreign/foreigner” is a neutral term: it’s the context and intent that matters. When you say “I wouldn’t want my family to become foreigners,” it implies being foreign is something undesireable.

      @Ian Brotherhood: Priceless documentary evidence, and really quite shocking to see it gathered together.

      It was really tough to write. It’s not good for the soul going onto far-right, white supremacist, counter-jihadist websites when they are the antithesis of everything you believe in, and I even had to take a few breaks. But I think stuff like this is important, because just ignoring it lets it fester in the dark.

      @davidb: Yes
      Remain
      The internal affairs of other countries are their own business.

      I agree in principle, unfortunately nuclear warheads from Mr Trump’s country, which require approval from said country in order to fire, are sailing past my window.

      @Ali: While being basically true this disregards the fact that the English are already foreigners in Scotland. If you doubt it you could only do so from the position of not being English. Being English with a Scottish accent in Scotland means I hear all the anti-English banter while people think they are among only “their own” – hearing other people referred to as “that English c*nt” for example.

      I know what it feels like to have people talking about you when they think their among “their own”: it’s upsetting and it’s completely unacceptable, be it anti-English “banter” in Scotland, or anti-Scottish “banter” in England. As I said above, most people are reasonable, compassionate human beings, but the people in power have to exercise justice & fairness – because doing the right thing is always hard work.

      @Valerie: Just as an aside, I can’t quite believe how the media seems to have stepped up providing a platform for the more disgusting elements of UKIP.

      They’re the Guernsey Bobbies the Reverend alluded to on Remembrance Sunday: they’ll go along with anything the powerful and influential do, because they’re terrified of the repercussions. So we’ll keep seeing the Farages, le Pens, Kassams, and others because they’re pally with the president-elect of the US, and don’t want to upset him.

      @Grouse Beater: The slur was first used in 1704 and became common currency.
      Blair MacDougall and the Fear Campaign resurrected it.

      See the paragraph highlighted in red: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-ou

      Amazing, thanks!

      @lumilumi: Come on, we have to fight back! Denigrated as lefty-greenies or “Scot-nazis” or whatever, but we’re the nice people here. We have to make our voice heard. We’ve got to take our message to the grassroots and talk to and listen to ordinary people, reassure them and not alienate former NO voters by calling them “yoons” or “Britnat zoomers” or whatever. Be a truly inclusive movement for self-determination.

      And we will, and we are. I know a lot of people gave the First Minister some criticism for backing Clinton, & I respect that people have issues with her. However, what distinguishes the FM from others is she isn’t going to let Trump’s election change her position. Unlike the invertebrate gastropods who are crawling to Trump & his preening cronies, the FM is sticking to her words – and she has to. The “moderates” of the UK will take on a tone of reconciliation, of just waiting to see what the President Elect does – and then presenting completely unacceptable “compromises.”

      Trump: “All people called Joe shall have both legs cut off.”
      Sane people: “No, leave the Joes alone, no leg amputation!”
      Moderates: “How about we cut off *one* of their legs?”

      @Proud Cybernat: Great article Al. However, the problem as I see it is simply this–those on the Union side of this constitutional debate will simply never see or agree with ANY of what you place in front of them. They just won’t. They just don’t have the eyes to see beyond their own prejudices. They will continue to believe (and I mean they TRULY BELIEVE) that those of us who seek self-governance for Scotland and who wish to keep our position beside our EU friends are the fascists and isolationists.

      It can seem like that, I know – but I’ve *seen* it happen. You never know what will cause that little lightbulb moment in someone who’s thought a certain way all their life, suddenly starting to reconsider everything. And it’s vital information to keep on hand in case someone undecided or a soft-No has worries about independence from that perspective.

    63. Another Union Dividend says:

      Sinky says at 9:53 pm

      O/T Super National front page to-morrow. Unionist Labour Party supporters must see it.

      https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun?lang=en

      I am sure the BBC / Sky newspaper reviews will include this… not.

    64. Ruby says:

      ‘Either Blair MacDougall, Ian Smart, and others really, truly believe that the movement for Scottish independence really is the same as the rhetoric which fuelled a Leave vote in the UK and Trump in the USA, or they don’t and just lie about it.’

      If they are not liars then they are extremely stupid!

    65. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      lumilumi @ 21:38,

      I believe that the Nordic countries also have their mutual pet hates and jokey stereotypes. We here eg. may think of the Danes as being broody and gloomy (à la Hamlet) but apparently within the Nordic countries they are regarded as being the most cheery and fun-loving!

      However, you all have the estimable advantage of having full autonomy, so you are able to freely choose how much you are prepared to share between yourselves. If only Scotland were in the same happy position!

    66. Bill says:

      I see this strange alignment as a result of the different kind of nationalisms temporarily lining up – let me explain:

      so Brit/English nationalism is supremacist – beggar-my-neighbour style one-upmanship. So English nats are pro Brexit and against Scots/Welsh/Irish indy.

      Scots nats are fraternal/internationalist in outlook, want to join the club of nations. Similar to Irish nationalism. Don’t want to invade anyone etc.

      Trump, if he’s an American nat, I would see as more like a Scots nat. He already said he wants to get out of other countries and keep to himself. Seems to care about all the people in America – despite what the media claims.

      It’s a massive mistake by Alex/Nicola making an enemy of Trump. Big blind spot in SNP at moment. Also the point about Indyref I being too early is correct.

    67. lumilumi says:

      @ Proud Cybernat, above

      But surely the trick is not to convince the unconvinceabls, the true blue unionists. They’ll never be turned.

      The trick is to convince the soft no’s. Those who kind of liked the idea of indy but still voted NO for the “safe” option, in hope of a better deal (the Vow). They should know better by now. Unless they’re reliant on the BBC and the MSM for their news.

      It is also an unfruitful and stupid strategy to tell former NO voters that they’re stupid and being duped (which they are) by the BBC and the MSM. Hey, these people might think they’re “politically aware”, telling them they’re stupid or just propaganda chumps won’t go down well. You’ve got to give them something so that they can preserve their personal pride and dignity, come to their own conclusion on the side of indy.

      You’ll never win any former NO voters to the YES side by yelling at them and telling them how stupid they were.

      Oh, and I have no patience for pro-indy groups criticising the SNP. They’re falling for the classic British imperialist trap: divide and rule. Unless ALL indy-minded people get behind the SNP, there won’t be indy. Conversations and debates of what indy Scotland should be like are kind of futile unless you help to ensure indy happens in the first place.

      After indy, go for your own goals. The SNP will probably split along left-right lines. But it’s still the Scots Parliament, way nearer to Scots’ concerns and wishes than the Westminster parliament.

    68. Legerwood says:

      One of the things that struck me during the referendum was that an independent Scotland was going to be consigned to a special level of foreign-ness by rUK – even more foreign than those ‘foreign Johnnies’ on the Continent.

      This was nowhere more obvious than the issue of building complex warships and the constant best from BT that the UK or rUK as it would be, did not get complex warships built in foreign shipyards thus no more orders for the Clyde.

      That might have been true-ish but it does not stop foreign companies being involved in building quite important parts of these complex ships, very important parts such as the electrics for example. Thales UK is part of the Thales Group which is a French company and Thales UK has the contract for the electrics on the new carriers.

      As I said, a really special level of foreign-ness for Indy Scotland

    69. Dr Jim says:

      All this nonsense about the word foreigner being a bad thing again
      When I lived in Spain I was a foreigner my documents said so (extranero) and it didn’t bother me, because I was a foreigner, so what!

      If a Spaniard goes into France he’s still Spanish even if he lives there but I’ll tell you what he doesn’t do, he doesn’t lay claim to that country just because it happens to be on the same land mass as his or because he’s a “European” and feels he has some entitlement to own it, our own Christian Allard is a Frenchman who lives in Scotland and proud of who he is

      They’re quite well mannered those nasty European foreigners
      I think there are some folk becoming over sensitive again
      and in the end, you own nothing you just get a wee shotty

      Unless you’re an arrogant imperialist who’s gonnae come round my house and stick a flag I don’t want in my garden and claim it from me because I’m just an ignorant tenement dwelling half educated savage who’d rather spend my pound in Strathclyde and not in Croyden I’ve got no problem with you (see Boris would get it stuck on him) not because he’s English, because he’s an Arse who tells me I have no rights

      Folk just need to be who they are and stop worrying about it, a change in a countries constitution won’t turn anybody purple overnight your kids’ll still go to school and your shoes’ll still fit the same as yesterday

    70. ed t head says:

      so if they are calling yes far right why didnt the tory ukip support yes, I forgot you look at the headline and dont put your brain into gear. Should we boycot J K’s latest film loss of box office takings might stop her sounding off.

    71. HandandShrimp says:

      Kin is kin, the way unionists go on about foreigners says more about the state of main stream UK politics than it does about self determination.

    72. My wife’s a foreigner.
      I’ll miss her when Blair McDougall signs her extradition order.
      Oh dear, so easily do they slip into crypto fascism.
      The usual tossery from the Unionist English Nationalists and their Uncle Tom retainers.

    73. FatCandy says:

      My wife and eldest son actually are foreigners in that they hold different passports from my youngest son and I. It’s never been an issue until Brexit as we all have EU passports.

      Thanks to Club Fuckmuppet, fronted by Gove/Farage/Johnson el al. and staffed by the ("Tractor" - Ed)ous Unionist Parties of Caledonia, it now seriously looks like my family truly will be split down the middle.

    74. Muscleguy says:

      @Brian McGrath

      I’m Scots born, English parents, eldest sister born Manchester, the other 3 of us Ayrshire. Emigrated to NZ aged 6 in ’72. Met and married an English girl in NZ, 2 kids born in NZ. Our families in NZ and Australia. One kid here in Scotland, one back in NZ, engaged to a Kiwi with Maori ancestry (Ngai Tahu).

      People have trouble placing my accent: childhood Scots overlaid by NZ, educated, English accents at home. Very occasionally and never in a challenging manner when on the campaign trail my origins were questioned. Born Scotland, raised NZ ALWAYS accepted, no problem. Never been abused, meanest areas of Dundee etc.

    75. Terry says:

      If there has been anti English expressions in the past it could have something to do with the fact that most English moved up here for usually well paid jobs – think of the oil industry and academia. It isn’t exactly polish fruit picking or Latvian cleaning jobs is it?

      A couple of English friends said to me they felt so welcome by the tone of the indyref they voted yes. As for myself – after brexit and trump I’ve applied for my Irish passport. That UK one feels shoddy now. Will still be door knocking and delivering leaflets though. Get yourself fit folks. May isn’t far away

    76. The Lurker says:

      Outstanding!

    77. mealer says:

      Murdo Fraser on the telly the nicht.You could see him panicking at the very thought of indyref2.And little wonder.Last time round No shipped a third of their support.

    78. Joemcg says:

      It’s very ironic all that foreigner shite above when I now actually feel IAM a foreigner in my own land getting a unionist agenda rammed down my throat 24:7 on all media platforms plus having to watch a Foreign country to me anyway playing football live on one of our main stations regularly. What other supposed nation would put up with that?

    79. Tam Jardine says:

      Great work Taranaich- dismantling a narrative some yoons were getting comfortable with.

      Am gloomy after my IPSO appeal has been rejected on the Express’ make-believe “widespread outbreaks of violence”- some guy in london who watched something about the indyref on the news trying to tell me black is white. IPSO is lower than the Express- walking behind the cart with a shovel

    80. Chic McGregor says:

      It is the US and UK which are exceptionalists. Pathetic projection by McJonah.

      But to use a Scottish expression, their bum is weel an’ truly oot the windae.

    81. Joemcg says:

      For me it throws into doubt again that our vote was kosher which I’ve never believed the outcome anyway. Two major anti-establishment votes since 2014 yet with our rebellious DNA we voted for the status quo? Nope. I don’t buy it.

    82. Effijy says:

      Scottish and English are two very different worlds.
      Scots in the main are left of centre and the English in the main are right wing and stretching further in the opposite direction to us.

      People make Glasgow, and they make Scotland.
      If someone needs help up here, they tend to get it.
      Ask for some help in London, there is a slim chance of you making eye contact.

      Whenever I see the results of a UK Fund Raiser, Scots are
      the most generous, despite having lower incomes.

      These give no reasons to dislike the English, they can take their country which ever way the like, but I do detest Westminster for dragging my country in a direction that is not of our choosing.

      I’m also sick of every England Football Match being televised in Scotland, when we only get to see Scotland,
      if they are playing England.
      Just Folding my Spain Shirt away and putting it on top of my Slovakia Strip, which sits on my Slovenia Kit.
      But may the team with a population and investment greater than every other team in their group, fair well?

      To walk upon England’s Greedy unpleasant land.

    83. Macart says:

      I read this superb article earlier over on Al’s own site and completely agree with Al and his conclusions.

      Well worth reading twice.:)

      Right now the bad guys, and I do mean bad guys in the most literal sense, are three for three. I’d say its about time that winning streak was brought to a crashing halt.

    84. BBC still describing the comfortable victory for the SNP in Parliament today as a “division ” in the Scottish Parliament while STV simply say it was a victory for the SNP.

    85. heedtracker says:

      Equally funny when I was growing up was that all the old timers stated that the Scots were mongrels and that there was no such thing as a Scottish race. I grew up to be an archaeologist and they were/are right.”

      According to latest genetic research, they were/are wrong.

      https://wellcome.ac.uk/press-release/who-do-you-think-you-really-are-first-fine-scale-genetic-map-british-isles

      Independent newspaper reports it thusly,

      “One of the most intriguing signatures seen in the genetics of present-day English is the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons from southern Denmark and northern Germany after the end of Roman rule in 410AD. The DNA samples showed this migration involved intermarriage with the Romano-British Celts rather than wholesale ethnic cleansing, as some historians have suggested.

      “The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons,” said Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist at Oxford University.

      “This has allowed us to see what has happened. The established genetic makeup of the British Isles today is reflecting events that took place 1400 years ago,” Professor Robinson said.

      Other major events in history, such as the Roman invasion and occupation between 43AD and 410AD, the large-scale invasion by the Viking Danes in 865AD and the subsequent establishment of Danelaw, as well as the Norman invasion of 1066, cannot be seen in the genetic profiles of Britons today.”

      So the biggest change in the British archipelago since the last ice age was the arrival of the Angle and Saxon tribes. All the others cannot be seen, in your genes.

      Otherwise genetically, we’re far from mongrels, although maybe not Crufts yet.

      Scotland is an extremely distinct nation from England. Its a nation forged in 400 year war with the Roman Empire and one of the oldest nations in the world. What our ancestors would make of slobs like MacD and Kenfarq, is anyone’s guess.

      There’s also tons of new archaeology going on that shows Scotland had many other distinct and differing things that had a huge impact on the why and how of Hadrians Wall too.

      Some mongrels. Although you want to hear our chums in the south yelp, if any of the above ever crops up. Its England, England, England, all the way. Although they do like Romano Britain, it chimes with that grand old rule Britannia thingee, maybe.

    86. We should sink this “our English market is worth four times our European market” nonsense because it includes lots of Scots goods passing through England before being exported from English ports.
      But more to the point is the fact that they seem to imagine if we are independent from England we wont be buying Heinz soups and Mars Bars anymore as there will be a hard border (whatever that means). What infantile pish. By the same nonsense we wouldn’t be trading with Switzerland for Toblerone or buying Mazda cars and we wouldn’t be able to get Guinness

    87. Dr Jim says:

      Thicko Murdo Fraser could only sputter out Fluffy Mundells words tonight in the face of Stephen Gethins answers and it looked like a wee sneaky “I’m John McKay” colluded with Stephen in making Murdo squirm and squeek “No Surrender No Referendum” poor soul it’s all he had left to dribble out of his lying rotten face

      BTW Did Murdo get in on the list or did anybody actually vote for him
      When I thought about the Holyrood vote today it struck me that most of the people who voted against Scotland were not actually elected

      It’s no wonder the opposition sits in their seats smirking when they earn big chunks of dosh for not doing actually anything except smirking at their luck of free money

    88. Richardinho says:

      I live in England and it definitely feels like a foreign country. I’ve visited France, Italy, and Holland, and they seemed like foreign countries too. Weirdly it doesn’t feel like a big deal.

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 00:47,

      List MSPs were all elected, just from a wider catchment area than non-list MSPs. AMS is not my favourite electoral system by any means, not least because it invites invidious comparisons, jibes of “2nd class MSPs”, etc., etc., but ultimately they are all there because enough people voted in support of their position.

      Don’t forget, most SNP MSPs used to be list members themselves not so very long ago. A few still are.

      Just because some list MSP talks utter pish doesn’t make him/her a non-person. (Much though we might wish it.) The real answer is to convince more voters not to support their rubbish politics the very next chance they get. (Like next May, for example.)

    90. GrahamB says:

      Dave McEwan Hill at 12:27
      It’s not just our goods getting re-exported through English outlets that get counted in this ‘four times’ market. Last week I was looking at prices of chickens in M&S and it occurred to me that these chickens, clearly labeled with their farm of origin in Perthshire, would be counted as an export from Scotland to England since M&S’s head office is down there somewhere when in fact they had only been ‘exported’ from Perthshire to Partick.
      Does anyone know of a central source of information for trade between Scotland and England? Is it all extrapolated from individual firms’ returns using similar methodology as the GERS numbers or is it all just numbers invented by Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie, the BBC, etc.?

    91. Chic McGregor says:

      The biggest lie is that England, despite being in trade deficit with every other country in Europe, is, if you believe it, in trade surplus with Scotland. Despie Scotland being at the top of the resource to population ratio in Europe.

      Be warned. Internal domestic UK accountancy can be fiddled.

      But would they?

      I guess we all know the answer to that.

    92. lumilumi says:

      The Britnat obsession about blue-covered passports just leaves me scraching my head.

      My first passports were blue-covered as well. Only after my country joined the EU (1995) the cover became maroon. Even after that, there’s always been the Finnish Coat of Arms on the cover. A lion rampant facing right (west) standing on an eastern-style (Russian) scimitar/cureved sword, wielding a western-style straight sword, surrounded by all the roses of all the Finnish provinces. It says “Euroopan unioni/Europeiska unionen—- SUOMI : FINLAND.

      It is one of the best passports because if you flip through the pages, you’ll se an “animation” of a gangly elk running. The “off-sides” are full of red squirrels, pine martens, volwerines, mountain hares, swans, woodpeckers, brown bears, wolves, hedgehogs, frogs, all kinds of typically Finnish animals. The back cover is embossed with several special snowflakes. The EU didn’t order us to make our passports boring and official, so we made them quirky and fun.

      Next year, you’ll even be able to get the 100-year special edition Finnish passport. Full of the animals (and rumor says the gangling elk will be replaced by a trotting reindeer) and with some quotes from important Finnish writers. The back cover embossed with a “Finland 100 years” logo. All within EU/Shengen rules.

    93. Smallaxe says:

      I am an Earthman who lives in Scotland.I have children grandchildren and
      assorted relatives living in different parts of our Earth.

      There can be no such entities as Foreigners.

      Simples 🙂

      Peace Always

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      Baaaad Blair McD: responsible actor or dangerously ignorant ideolog? Of course, the other alternative is he is a bit of a neo-fascist.

      The World Today: Imagined Communities – On British Nationalism
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15nqjGCAqd4

    95. CameronB Brodie says:

      @BlairMcDougall
      Which of us is the reactionery nationalist?

      WANK

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      lumilumi
      I’m afraid I see the use of “yoon” as being a useful vehicle to highlight the difference between closed ideological minds and open rational minds. Not all No voters are yoons, only the ideologically driven nationalists.

      I think it’s quite effective in drawing attention to the lack of rational humanity displayed by British nationalists, that’s only an opinion though.

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Do you have access to your inalienable human rights? No!

      Ignore ignorant/malicious ideologs such as TUBA-BOY, they view you as sub-human and beneath themselves! They are try to distract you from important stuff, like equality, human rights and sustainability.

      Don’t let them frame the world for you to live in.

      Put the master’s tools down.

    98. Breeks says:

      The definition of foreign is having a trait or characteristic that is different from your own country.

      In areas like language, there is a clear and unambiguous distinction.

      In food and drink, the distinctions are less clear, with perceptions making the difference. One mans porridge is another mans owsianka.

      However, despite different language and cultural identity, I find Europe’s disposition towards immigration, tolerance, inclusiveness and dignified respect for each other to be much more comfortable for me to live with that the Britnat frenzy to target, demonise, denigrate and segregate anything and everything that is non-British.

      To say therefore that “Britishness” is increasingly foreign to me is quite literally the definitive truth.

      In saying so I acknowledge that British is in fact a geographical term, but you know what? I don’t actually mind if we were change the name by deed poll, and let England keep the title if it’s so important to them. Britain, and the Caledonian Isles has a nice enough ring to it. If the English and Scottish Unionists are alarmed that I’m at risk of becoming foreign, then they are going to be disappointed. I can confirm that I already am, and furthermore, I am thoroughly relaxed about it. Come on in, the water is lovely.

    99. Malky says:

      Pure, unalloyed historical revisionist imaginings from that pair at the top of the article.

    100. Craig P says:

      Great article Al – pot, kettle!

      They are right to some extent in that there are similarities between Yes, Leave, and Trump – they were all anti-establishment votes. No, Leave and Trump were all anti-foreigner.

      The worrying question is whether an anti-establishment campaign can win without also being racist.

      There is a poster above who has experienced anti-English sentiment in Scotland. I don’t doubt it exists – but assuming someone is a Yes voter just because they talk like that is false. Look at the casual stereotypes in the Shuggie and Duggie cartoon for example in the Labour supporting, Unionist Daily Record.

    101. Ken500 says:

      People express an opinion of elections in which they have no vote. Some people try to scam £Millionaires.

      The people in Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU, with full EU rights.

      The Tory/Unionist and green no Party are destroying the world economy and do not believe in Democracy. Green Tea Party. American Tea Party. The Americans dumped the tea in the water. The Green’s got Trump elected.

    102. Robert Louis says:

      Dave McEwan Hill at 1227am,

      Completely agree. It is clear as day, that many, many goods from Scotland pass through England on the way to the EU or worldwide, and as you say, get registered by companies with their head offices in England. So the illusion is created that England is our largest export market. I do not think it is.

      The SNP and Scot Gov really need to nail this on the head, as a matter of priority.

      As with the made up Scottish financial figures (GERS), these assertions about England being our largest export market are based on nothing but hot air. As others have pointed out, do we really expect Westminster to tell the truth about Scotland, since it has been lying against our country since well before the union in 1707.

      To London, Scotland is just an expendable resource to be fleeced in much the same way they did with their other colonies.

      As I say, this needs nailed by the Scot Gov/SNP at each and every opportunity.

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      Macart
      I think this scholar adds weight to Mr. McKenna’s argument. Perhaps the original target of the thought-terminating cliche of “conspiracy theorist”. Better have some tinfoil handy. 😉

      http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/Tragedy_Hope_Review_Robert_Rea.htm

    104. Ken500 says:

      The decent people of America voted.

    105. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ken500
      I know I suggested ambiguity is a powerful tool but are you perhaps stretching things a bit mate? 🙂

    106. Macart says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Rea’s review and the premise of Quigley’s book again don’t miss and hit the wall. 🙂

    107. Ken500 says:

      The price of production have to be deducted from any trade benefits, To realise the profit and calculate the total cost. Production costs do bring alternative benefit. Added in to the calculated the cost.

      Other benefits from the EU have to be included. Grants. Investment from EU banks etc. Renewables etc. Tax situation as regards equality of production and costs has to be considered. The largest biggest market and investments. There is still world trade, as well. The two are not mutually exclusive. It’s not either or it’s both to benefit. It would benefit the rest of the U.K. If Scotland stayed in the EU. EU goods and services could be traded more easily through Scotland.

    108. Ken500 says:

      Good day Cameron. ?

      Cameron the worst PM ever.

    109. Ken500 says:

      @ ? = ( : > )

      The world has turned full circle. Spinning on it’s axial.

      Left has become right. Right has become left.

    110. CameonB Brodie says:

      Ken500
      I think the scope of Scotland’s potential is unimaginable, at present. Our economy currently operates within a system that drains Scotland of our energies and is harmful to Scotland’s health and well-being (UK), which functions within a global marketplace that seeks the kind of opportunities provided by “difference”. Remove this ailment, liberate Scottish culture, and new practices and process will emerge. At least the “Semiotic Theory of Space and Place” tells us that, but that’s just contemporary science, not ideology. 😉

    111. Nana says:

      Theresa May dealt fresh blow
      http://archive.is/9y39K

      Britain may borrow 100 billion pounds ($125 billion) more than previously forecast
      http://archive.is/OHun1

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-wants-up-to-60-billion-exit-fee-in-brexit-negotiations-article-50-2016-11

      The self-proclaimed government outsider is having trouble finding people to run the government.
      http://archive.is/zMRxT

    112. Smallaxe says:

      Nana:

      Good Morning Nana,Thank you for the links.Kettle’s on.

    113. galamcennalath says:

      Who needs a morning paper when we’ve got Nana, eh?

      Great set of links as usual! Thanks. 🙂

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      Your next for the treatment. I doubt my skooling will have an effect in moving you from your bigoted position, there’s no money in it for you, but I might help others put tiered old perceptions to bed….

      WANK

      NATIONALISM AND IDENTITY POLITICS IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

      Nationalism is a multi-faceted phenomenon. Expressing both claims for recognition and for superiority, it is marked by an intrinsic moral ambivalence. Politically, its emergence has coincided with the affirmation of liberal and democratic ideas, and in particular the notion of popular sovereignty. It expresses the political identification of citizens with their state, and the policies of governments to reinforce such identification. It is based on the existence of a shared national identity, relying on the presence of historical, cultural, language or religious bonds. However, because of the imperfect congruence of states and national identities, nationalism has also developed outside and against nation-state, to affirm the rights of minorities.

      http://www.eolss.net/sample-chapters/c14/e1-35-01-06.pdf

    115. orri says:

      Didn’t actually watch Marr but have seen Laura Kuenssberg on the BBC since with a face like a well skelp arse. Think it’s one of these protesteth too much kind of things from those who have gone out of their way to aid and abet the rise of the far right in english speaking countries getting on their high horse when they extend their platform to a foreigner. Perhaps the problem wasn’t that it happened but that it did on a day where remembering not only the first world war a clear link to the extremes that kind of xenophobia can lead to wasn’t meant to happen.

      Also remember the extremists didn’t actually win in Scotland, just as I’d like to believe that they didn’t win in Brexit or to some extent in the USA. What they do though is convince you they did and try to prevent any reconciliation between those they defeated and the moderates on their own side.

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      While we’re on the subject, you might want to wind your neck in until such time as you understand what you are talking about. You are simply showing the world what an ignorant dick you are. Why not work to build a nation rather than work to bury a nation under ideology?

      WANK

      THE IDENTITY POLITICS OF MULTICULTURAL NATIONALISM A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE REGULAR PUBLIC ADDRESSES OF THE BELGIAN AND THE SPANISH MONARCHS (1990
      – 2000)

      While the decline of the nation-state and the rise of regional and sub-national identities have generated a lot of research and theory during the last decades, comparatively little attention has been paid to the strategies which the nation-state uses to fend of this threat from below and to reconstruct the centre. When the state proves unable to marginalise the sub-national claims and does not dare to take the risk of a head-on confrontation, it can opt for what David Brown (1997; 2000: 135 – 151) describes as a corporatist strategy. This implies that the centre attempts to acquire a new legitimacy by accommodating the ethnic or regional claims and acting as the authoritative manager of the nationalist tensions within the state.

      https://ecpr.eu/Filestore/PaperProposal/67070334-32fc-4abf-9025-4b3b8c39102b.pdf

    117. Nana says:

      O/T

      Just got round to watching this Q&A session after a showing of London calling.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkAwId3a6OI&feature=youtu.be

    118. CameronB Brodie says:

      @TUBA-BOY
      As ideology does not require a link to reality, it provides an unsuitable base for the preparation of SUSTAINABLE strategies for national development. I reckon you are aware of that, so that suggests your dickish-ness is malicious.

      WANK

      The subject of nationalism is extremely complex, not the least because of the many different sources and manifestations of the phenomenon. This paper will deal essentially with certain contemporary forms of nationalism which have emerged or intensified in Europe and the former Soviet Union during the 1990s. In order to place this discussion in perspective, a brief background of the historical experience is provided at the outset as well as a consideration of some of the basic concepts relating to this phenomenon.

      http://www.gmu.edu/programs/icar/ijps/vol2_2/pamir.htm

    119. McBoxheid says:

      AFAIK, Scotland and England are a Union of 2 nations. to me that means Scots kids are born Scottish and English kids English. It doesn’t matter where they are born, it’s the nationality of their parents that count, or their own personal choice, when they reach their majority, to become a citizen of their chosen country.

      I seem to remember in the past, my passport said BritScot.

      It’s funny that the Scot unionists, all 3 of them, are feart of losing their jobs in Westminster and worried of no longer being entitled to be elevated to the Lords, while the SNP are quite happy to lose their jobs when we become independent and have never coveted the ermine.

      All those Scottish lords and Dames will be out on their ear too, no more gravy train. They must be bricking it.

      What will happen in Hollyrood come independence, will the Unionist parties have to be dissolved, as they are part of the main Westminster parties, with loyalty to London and not Scotland?

    120. IAN says:

      I suppose the Brexiters will still want to go abroad to the EU for holidays. I wonder how that works now that they have told them to fuck of.

    121. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      Stick with me kid and I’ll make sure your skooling is not based on misconceptions born out of ideology.

      WANK

      Fuelled by factors such as globalisation, European integration and migration, there is evidence of a resurgence of nationalism in Europe and beyond. This trend is being increasingly reflected in national and regional cultural policy-making, often linked to a new focus on the politics of collective identity.

      How concerned should we be about such a trend? What action, if any, should be taken by the Council of Europe and by those who promote concepts such as “multiple identities”, cultural diversity, intercultural dialogue and the dynamic interpretation of cultural heritage? To what extent does this new trend towards nationalism in cultural policies reflect an increasingly primordial approach to national identity formation23 which directly contradicts the vision of a people’s Europe in which the individual is at the centre of a multicultural society which respects not only fundamental rights and freedoms, but also the cultural and social identity of individuals?

      It is argued here that this emerging nationalism in cultural policy-making needs examination and discussion. What follows is an attempt to give examples of the new nationalism in cultural policies, to identify through those examples the underlying trends and finally to point to some of the challenges which it is hoped will provoke wider interest, reflection, discussion and action.

      https://www.coe.int/t/dg4/cultureheritage/CWE/CWE-TP-Duelund_en.pdf

    122. Glamaig says:

      orri says:
      16 November, 2016 at 8:45 am
      ‘Think it’s one of these protesteth too much kind of things from those who have gone out of their way to aid and abet the rise of the far right’

      And theyre still doing it – the French far right got about 15 mins uninterrupted on R4 Newsnight last night, and Farage was never off the airwaves for years, totally disproportionate to UKIPs (then) low support. Well done, BBC. I seem to remember far back there was a time when the far-right was actually explicitly excluded from the media because of historical lessons of the rise of Nazism and war and holocaust etc, but now changed days.

      Then they seem surprised when Brexit wins, which encourages Trump, which helps who next?

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      I’m nowhere near eleven yet but I hope you’re getting the picture? Wind your neck in, DICK, or it’ll be the full treatment next time.

      WANK

    124. Famous15 says:

      O/t Call Kaye with a classic lie. the SN P MP is questioning the virtue of FOLOW ON milk for infants and She conflates this with FORMULA versus breastfeeding.

      Follow on milk is a con formula is an acceptable alternative second best to breastfeeding.

      The lie is disgusting,can anyone text her to make distinction.I failed to do so.

    125. Glamaig says:

      …oh and the decent, fair, social democratic, outward looking, progressive SNP are airbrushed from the UK political scene.

    126. Ken500 says:

      BBC Channel

      UK’s Negotiating Objectives

      Disaster

    127. Joemcg says:

      Can’t understand posters above even doubting the lie that the UK is our biggest market! There’s 700 miiion citizens in the EU and only 50 million over the border. Even on whisky sales alone that exposes it as a complete fabrication!

    128. Desimond says:

      Just wow:

      Nor can we forget how fully the blood of us all is mixed in the families of our four nations, how freely it has flowed, as one, in war.

    129. Glamaig says:

      Joemcg says:
      16 November, 2016 at 9:58 am
      Can’t understand posters above even doubting the lie that the UK is our biggest market! There’s 700 miiion citizens in the EU and only 50 million over the border. Even on whisky sales alone that exposes it as a complete fabrication!

      Of course its bollocks, but our Unionist chums keep repeating it because it has a certain ‘truthiness’ and requires a little thought to see that its bollocks. Like, all trade is not going to cease because theres a border.

      Scotland provides 50% of UK hydrocarbon needs. And the UK is not going to suddenly switch off the pipelines and buy its oil and gas in tankers from elsewhere.

      The average voter unfortunately relies on heuristics, not thought, to form opinion, thats why the Unionists do vacuous soundbites on repeat, like how many times can Alistair Darling fit the word ‘pensions’ into one sentence. They know exactly what they are doing, attempting to deceive.

    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      I almost forgot this one. You do understand what ideology is, after all, that’s what British nationalism is DICK. You’re not making much of an effort to connect with AUTHENTIC Scotland, so you appear to be one of “them”, eh?

      WANK

      Nationalism as an Ideology: Ukraine’s Revolution

      To begin my definition of nationalism it is important to recognize several key aspects. An essential factor in nationalism and nationalistic movements is the similarity of culture among the group, as well as the belief that the group composes a distinct society. The community tends to communicate in terms whose meaning can only be identified in context and by those involved in that community. This commonality demarcates who belongs and who does not and was actively constructed and maintained by both elites and commoners.65 For nationalistic movements to be successful, for nationalistic sentiment to take root, and to fully understand the concept of nationalism, one must realize the similarity of culture as both a necessary and sufficient condition of legitimate membership within the group or entity. In other words, if you are not one of us, then you are one of “them”.

      http://preserve.lehigh.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1936&context=etd

    131. Ken500 says:

      The world is spinning on it’s axial

      The left is right, the right is left.

      Ding dong the witch is dead.

      What a total shambles

      The Tories are destroying the world economy.

    132. CamernoB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      Here’s another perspective for you, DICK. You’re dealing with someone who actually knows something about preparing strategies for sustainable nation development. You?

      WANK

      Modernization and economic development of nation-states in the past century or so owe a great deal to the development of nationalism as ideology. However, the institutions and legislation that have evolved out of this ideology appear to have outlived their usefulness in today’s interdependent world. What the framers of the theory of modern nation-states failed to anticipate is the degree to which national development is influenced by nationalism as emotion as opposed to nationalism as ideology. This paper analyzes the way national development is shaped by the interplay between nationalism as ideology and nationalism as emotion in the context of global interdependence.

      http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01969729408902352

    133. Dr Jim says:

      Who is Maurice Golden MSP

      And you might well ask that question because he’s another one of those slimy underhanded list MSPs I have already mentioned
      In a communication today from Maurice Golden MSP he gives the impression he is my MSP because he lives locally, he shows me pictures of places and people he is standing next to congratulating him he says on his work, he says
      He shows me pictures of how he’s involved with Citizens advice in my area and indicates his help in providing those services to the thousands of people who need them, he further does work with the Woodland Trust he says and includes pictures to support that

      What Maurice Golden MSP doesn’t say on his communication to me and probably thousands of others is which political party he belongs to
      High and low back to front I’ve scanned this document but nada, zilch, nothing

      Because even though I’m pretty clued up and know stuff I had to look him up to confirm what were my suspicions and *Bingo* turns out I was right he belongs to the

      *Ruth Davidson no to another referendum party*

      But he does say he’s working hard for me so thank God for another lying Tory too embarrassed to use their party name on a document, they must have learned that one from the Liable Dismocrats

    134. Ken500 says:

      There are 500million in the EU

      62Million in the UK.

      5.2Million in Scotland

      The Scottish population has only increased, since 2000 Holyrood. From the 1707 Union. In 1707 the Scottish population was 1/4 of the British population. Westminster policies depopulated Scotland.

    135. McBoxheid says:

      I forgot to say in my previous post that I was born in Germany, most of my siblings married foreigners, as I did. So what? To think otherwise is xenophobic. I’m an internationalist, who is very outlooking in my views. As soon as you leave your own country, you are a foreigner.

      There is cetainly nothing wrong with being a foreigner. As I live in Germany, I am a foreigner, but I have always been made most welcome here.

      Only small minded right wing bigots try to buy political points using the foreigner card.

    136. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      Though I indicated ideology does not require a link to reality, that does not mean it can not be strengthened through such a link. Scottish ‘nationalism’ is linked to landscape and culture, which means Scottish ideology can be fitted to the environment. British nationalism is linked to expansionist English nationalism and political ambition. It provides no hope for a sustainable future.

      Sounding more and more like you’re one of “them”.

      WANK

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ TUBA-BOY
      I hope today’s lesson has taught you to that I appreciate the full nastiness of your being. I hope you also realise I intend planning you out of Scotland’s environment, through applied PRINCIPLES OF CONTEMPORARY SOCIAL SCIENCE. I tend to achieve what I set my mind on. You?

      WANK

    138. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Undoubtedly just another UKOK Better Together lie @ Joemcg says at 9:58 am.

      “Can’t understand posters above even doubting the lie that the UK is our biggest market! There’s 700 million citizens in the EU and only 50 million over the border. Even on whisky sales alone that exposes it as a complete fabrication!”

      Whisky makes up ¼ of the UK’s food and drink revenue for a start.

      Dr Dr Paul Monaghan MP (SNP MP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) says on 14th November:

      “UKGov told me today just 44% of Scottish manufacturing exports are to rest of the UK but don’t know how much of that is passported to EU.”

      Also says:

      “Interesting UKGov reply today on question of proportion of Scottish exports to RUK destined for EU. They don’t know. My figures suggest 75%.”

      So the:

      “Scotland exports 4 x more to rUK than EU and is important” fae JaBa and Murdo (TQ11) Fraser is complete Bullsh*t as we all suspect.

      What Murdo and JaBA actually means is that the 3/4 of those Scottish exports to rUK that the rUK then exports to EU is the important bit (

      As always it is Union First, the truth a lot further down the list as we have come to expect from BLiS and the Ruth Davidson ‘No surrender to referendums’ Party.

      Fib Dems irrelevant.

    139. Glamaig says:

      The telling thing is the implication that being a ‘foreigner’ is a bad thing, when its actually a big so what. I live here, you live there, so what. It says volumes about the person using the word.

      In any case as far as I know the independant Irish or New Zealanders arent called ‘foreign’, so why us?

      Yet another vacuous soundbite, appealing to the xenophobic, and in the hope that some voters wont apply any thought to the matter.

    140. Kev says:

      @Joemcg

      Exactly what I was thinking – I simply don’t accept that of Scotland’s exports to the EU, 90% are consumed by rUK.
      To compare with Spain, just 18% of its total exports go to neighbouring France and 15% go to Germany:

      http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/balance-of-trade

    141. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      16 November, 2016 at 10:51 am
      @ TUBA-BOY

      He’s a merely a spin doctor really. Well not merely, its how our imperial masters operate from the bottom to the top of planet torboy.

      Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
      Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall Nov 13
      The FM who campaigned for all welfare power to come to Scotland in March asks to delay devolution of welfare for yrs

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 21h21 hours ago
      Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted Philip Sim
      No answers were forthcoming. Obfuscation, but no answers.Adam

      Tomkins MSP added,
      Philip Sim @BBCPhilipSim
      .@ProfTomkins presses ScotGov for detail of “split competence” approach of devolving benefits – background here: http://www.bbc.britnat.central.com.

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 13h13 hours ago
      This story now onto its 4th day; still no answers from SNP about when they want these powers

      What’s really going on though? I have no idea because its a toryboy Scotland and we just live in it.

    142. liz says:

      @Nana – surprisingly lots of empty seats at that Q&A.

      They need to advertise the screenings more widely.

      As for BlairMcD, I have no problem with someone having an opposite opinion on No/Yes.

      My problem with him is he’s a bare faced liar.
      When he posts some mince on twitter re GERS, someone like Dr Craig Dalzell will show him values that disputes what he is saying.

      He then disappears and shows up on a different thread spouting the exact same rubbish that has already been dis-proven.

    143. Chic McGregor says:

      Jockanese

      It isn’t just the politically motivated accounting fiddles.

      In a post indy Scotland, the practise of exporting raw produce to England to import it back at 3 or 4 times the price will simply not be tenable. Within a very short period of time, Scottish entrepreneurs will be commercially driven to set up Scotland’s own packaging and distribution networks, just like a real country. Hey! And I don’t think ‘Brand Scotland’ would be a negative either.

      As I keep saying, folk should concentrate on resources to population ratio. Fishing, Aquaculture and other food and drink, Timber, Energy, Manufacturing, Educational, Tourism, Bioscience, Software development, Heavy Engineering.

    144. James Maxwell says:

      Jacob Rees-Mogg appears to be suffering from a touch of schizophrenia when it comes to Trump. First, he was very much supportive (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37332421).

      At the height of the ‘pussy-gate’ furore he retracted his endorsement (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/10/top-tories-distance-trump-groping-boasts-jacob-rees-mogg-iain-duncan-smith)

      Now he is back to saying what a jolly good thing Trump’s election is (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37937980).

      In any case, a stellar and incisive article Al.

    145. Breeks says:

      I don’t care if England is our biggest market.

      This is how the Unionist media manipulate the agenda. What if England IS our biggest market, are you saying Independence destroys that market? If so, explain how and why. They don’t say that however, they let loose the argument and watch it scuttle about the floor trying to find a hiding place.

      It might very be there is some adjustment to be made while the UK economy disentangles itself into separate Scottish and English economies, but isn’t that one of the fundamental points of the exercise? Scotland is an export led economy tied to U.K. economy with a pitiful balance of trade. Our economy is more robust and diversified, but remains so in spite of Westminster policy towards Scotland, certainly not because of it.

      Westminster it seems to me has no “game plan” for Scotland beyond running down our infrastructure and commercial viability as some kind of cynical example for how we would fare in the world of cruel economics without the blessing of their divine insight and patronage.

      Yes Westminster, you’ve made your point. Trust you with Scotland’s oil revenues for 40 years and watch you dismantle our heavy industry in return. Then tell us, ad nauseum, that it had to be this way, and ignore the blatant example of Norway who applied a much more intelligent philosophy towards farming a natural resource for the good of their population across generations to come, whereas Westminster’s philosophy has been to plunder and exploit somebody else’s resource for the maximum return on the bare minimum investment. McCrone got it right. You got it terribly, terribly wrong, and by rights you should be held to account for your wilful incompetence.

      I really don’t know whether England is indeed our biggest market, nor the extent to which commerce between our respective nations will need to be adjusted. We have to sell our oil, whisky, energy, food, textiles, technology, and expertise to somebody who doesn’t have such things themselves. But we enter the transaction with things to sell, and apparently a customer who thinks they have a privileged right to buy.

      I do know however that Westminster’s strategic policy towards the government of Scotland has been a disaster of cataclysmic proportions, and if bringing that tragic reality to a halt does damage commerce for a time, I trust that having faith in a Scottish government in tune with Scotland’s potential will be a worthy compensation which more than makes up for any interim shortfall.

      If Scotland is as dependent upon England for our commerce as the Unionist arguments profess, then perhaps that’s a short term strategic imbalance that needs to be corrected rather than exacerbated.

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      Folk just need to highlight DICKS like ProfTomkins, who is unlikely to understand how the framework of social policy fits within the wider public policy framework, including an understanding of causal spatial factors involved and how they relate to each other. I doubt he’d even heard of post-modern critical social theory and “The Methodology of the Oppressed”, until it escaped into Scotland’s environment.

      I’ll just keep blasting them out of the sky with principles of contemporary social science and my trusty solutions of synthesis. Nice. 🙂

    147. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Yes I’m simplifying it @ Chic McGregor says at 11:22 am but the arguments given by JaBa and Murdo TQ11 Fraser yesterday and repeated verbatim by MSM/BBC need challenged.

      Aye, so many possibilities and as you say distribution networks (container ports spring immediately to mind).

      There is already a massive Global awareness, respect and demand for ‘Brand Scotland’ already without Independence which continues to grow.

      You are 100% correct about ‘resources to population ratio’ Scotland has a massive surplus across the board.

    148. Dr Jim says:

      Adam Boulton program this morning

      New report out by Labour MP David Lammy which shows in England and Wales more Black and Muslim people are now going to jail for longer than white counterparts for the same crime, also Gypsies and Travelling people arrests and incarceration has increased to record levels

      Hate crime since Brexit vote has increased by 20% according to Mr Lammy and it’s now become commonplace for foreign looking and black people to be shouted at in the street to go back where they came from

      In the light of this research by Mr Lammy he says he will be voting against the triggering of article 50 as he feels the need for the protection of the EU in Britain

      What can you say?

    149. McDuff says:

      Kev
      Exactly. I`m down in England every other month and there is very little Scottish produce in the shops. In fact there is as much from the Rep if Ireland in supermarkets as there is Scottish and very little at that, and any clothes or hardware that is not foreign made is produced in England.
      Scotland on the other hand is saturated with produce from England, just a quick look at the label confirms this, the reality is England exports far far more to Scotland than we do to England, its just the ongoing Unionist lies to convince a gullible public that we are totally dependent on England.
      God how I ache for independence.

    150. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      16 November, 2016 at 11:37 am
      heedtracker

      Spin is everything though. Here’s Prof T explainerising for the UK in the Graun. I still have absolutely no idea what’s going on and as rancid The Graun will not say out loud, that’s the whole point, duh!

      http://archive.is/ix2mf

      The Scottish Conservatives’ welfare spokesman, Adam Tomkins, who previously argued that the SNP government would “rather complain about the DWP than get on with the day job of making social security devolution work as smoothly and as quickly as possible,” suggested that the confusion has been caused because ministers failed to share information with parliament.

      He told the chamber that it was only after the DWP minister, Damian Green, had given evidence to Holyrood’s social security committee, on which Tomkins sits, were members of the committee given minutes of a meeting at which the “split competence approach” was discussed with UK ministers.”

      Old MacDougal’s an old school spin doctor and he’ll enjoy this very much.

    151. Lochside says:

      Well argued Breeks!should be a standard SNP script for rubbishing the ‘UK is our biggest and one and only market so don’t jeopardize yourselves daft Jocks by leaving us’ Unionist’latest wheeze for keeping us chained down.

    152. Nana says:

      @Liz

      I wondered if perhaps some folks went home after the showing of London calling and did not wait for the Q&A. I’ve seen this happen at events especially if its late at night.
      I get quite uncomfortable myself sitting on hard seats and just want to get home.

      Would be good to hear from someone who was there on the night. I agree these events need to be publicised better and folks should take no voters with them otherwise we are just talking amongst ourselves.

    153. Jack Murphy says:

      Sinky said at 10:12pm last night:-
      “More Misreporting Scotland from the BBC on Holyrood vote.
      BBC fail to mention that Labour abstained while Lib Dems and Tories voted against the substantive SNP motion, which did not mention Indy Ref2, and was supported by the Greens.”

      We saw it last night—and the omission jumped straight out at us—the BBC in Scotland no longer care if half the viewers know they are feeding less than the whole truth. AKA lies.
      It’s so obvious—-have these news editors and reporters no shame?

    154. Nana says:

      Watch and share

      S5M-02488 Single Market and Trade (European Union Referendum

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fILSnM7MyyQ&feature=youtu.be&a=

    155. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell
      When you’re discussing the nature of personal deficiencies of others, it might be a good idea to stick with BBC approved taxonomy. As such, the correct technical term for the likes of @martinmcluskey is WANK.

      Hope that helps. 😉

    156. John H. says:

      To sum up a grinning Andrew Neil on The Daily Politics a few minutes ago. If Donald Trump withdraws from Europe the Europeans will have to be nice to us because we’ve got Trident and troops already on the eastern borders of Europe.

      So there!

    157. heedtracker says:

      John H. says:
      16 November, 2016 at 12:13 pm
      To sum up a grinning Andrew Neil on The Daily Politics

      EU responds, not directly, on Facebook.

      Guy Verhofstadt
      4 hrs ·

      Instead of whining about Trump’s victory, we should come up with a plan ourselves. We need to expand the European border and coast guard and also develop our own European security capability to keep us safe. If the Trans-Atlantic Partnership is dead, we should look for co-operation and opportunities from within Europe. Let’s not waste our time on a TTIP that the Trump administration will never agree to. Instead, the European Union should focus on completing its own single market.

      It is time for unity in Europe.

      It’s time to make Europe great again!

    158. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Scottish Conservatives’ welfare spokesman, Adam Tomkins, who previously argued that the SNP government would “rather complain about the DWP than get on with the day job of making social security devolution work as smoothly and as quickly as possible,”

      This perspective assumes that Scotland’s natural place in the world is bounded by the confines of contemporary English nationalism. The man is clearly an English COLONIAL WANK who see Westminster as the center of the universe. A One Nation perspective unlikely to find an understanding of the sustainability paradigm, even if you took him by the hand. Bless.

    159. heedtracker says:

      A One Nation perspective unlikely to find an understanding of the sustainability paradigm, even if you took him by the hand. Bless.

      He’s an English tory, a high one, who believes that England owns Scotland. If they lose Scotland, England will be greatly diminished. And that’s just not going to happen.

      Its one of those odd but fundamental UKOK dichotomies right now among high toryboys like Prof T. He was a very desperate Remain vote, not because Leaving the EU is probably going to be a very economic bad thing for the UK, but that its given Scots just one more huge reason for devo and independence.

      In England, high tories rant away at how great England will be outside the EU, and rage at Scots to be quiet and accept UK democracy.

    160. For what it’s worth I was in wilkinsons in Camberley last week and was told by a young girl customer to go back to where you belong you bloody foreingner to be fair she was told off by the staff who came to my defence the girl had heard my scots accent and did not like it but as I say she was young and so was I long ago

    161. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi liz.

      There were around 150 at the actual screening, many of whom did not stay for the Q&A session.

    162. Fred says:

      Nana, thanks for the last link, excellent.

    163. orri says:

      The essential thing to remember is that Labour didn’t have the guts to outright vote against Holyrood even attempting to remain part of the EU because the most obvious way that that might be achieved is via a real rather than pretend version of Devo Max. Such a move might be better for Scotland and the UK as a whole but would unpick some of the close integration that is used in order to portray independence as being too much bother to achieve. As such they couldn’t actually give a fuck about the increased employment opportunities and prosperity a thriving Scotland might afford if that meant independence might be as step closer.

    164. Macart says:

      RE: Adam Boulton programme

      What Westminster government and the right wing media’s runaway narrative has unleashed on society. Its like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

      The UKs sales pitch to rest of the world comes across as, ‘we like your money well enough, we like your trade, we even like some of your products. We’d rather you weren’t wandering round our streets is all’.

      You could probably shorten that to something like ‘give us your business, now fuck off Johnny Foreigner’, but that might be seen as somewhat lacking in diplomacy.

      The reality of HOW the UKs exit from the EU is being brought about is an object lesson in how not to do a thing.

      Denigrating, demonising and scapegoating the international community you hope to retain or attract as customers over a period of decades and culminating in a summer and autumn of rising hate crime against said communities mibbies isn’t the greatest sales pitch ever.

      Just sayin’ like.

      Oh, and were I a UK national wealthy enough to be considering an overseas hol next year? I’d mibbies rethink that plan and look for a nice caravan park near Skeggy as an alternative. I don’t think 2016 has done the overseas rep any favours.

      Well done UK gov and the meeja…etc.

    165. Tam Jardine says:

      Breeks

      Re “our biggest market”- intriguing tweet from SNP Paul Monaghan this morning:

      Interesting UKGov reply today on question of proportion of Scottish exports to RUK destined for EU. They don’t know. My figures suggest 75%

    166. Cactus says:

      Excellent article Mr T. 🙂

      To begin with, the use of the word ‘foreigner’ is negatively thrown about too freely by the Corporate Media. Why can’t being ‘foreign’ be a positive (good) thing?

      Take the block-quoted comments above, below a certain Alex Ferguson’s picture statement (like all knee-benders, he’s no sir to me.)

      Try replacing the word ‘Foreigner(s)’ with the word ‘Neighbour(s)’ and you should observe a distinct difference in understanding.

      The thing is.. we’ve ALWAYS been ‘neighbours’ in Britain (geographically), but the Corporate Media want to paint the people of an independent Scotland as ‘foreigners,’ (politically) ~ THAT’S the difference.

      Same goes if you go abroad.. you’re not a foreigner, you’re an international neighbour of the world. If you can’t love people, try to at least like them. Yule feel better for it. Save the hatred and loathing for Westminster and the Corporate Media, that’s more than valid.

      For me, there will only ever be one foreigner.. and that person is Lou Gramm.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Gramm

      Head Games
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFQG6OOQmh8

    167. Tam Jardine says:

      doh- Jockanese posted this further up thread. Ignore me

    168. Tam Jardine says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker

      I see you beat me too it. It would be fascinating to know how other EU countries’ exports break down as the 44% figure always struck me as ridiculous.

      I wonder if Paul Monaghan can share his workings with us?

    169. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 12.15
      I hope I’m helping.

      While as others will testify I am no prude.
      The constant use of Wank and Dick in what you are trying to say risks you lessening the impact of the message.
      Now even if it’s fair comment or not you may be accused of just using every excuse to tell them they are are Wank or a Dick.
      That allows them to dismiss your overall message,and say to themselves and others you are only abusive.

      You needn’t agree with me Cameron (of course you needn’t) and you certainly don’t need to justify it.
      But I would be no kind of friend if I thought it but didn’t tell you.

      Jist Sayin.

    170. Valerie says:

      Really peed off at the politics right now. I suppose its just the tedious ping pong with shite.

      Tried to watch PMQs, but the level of animal noises, and just trite repetition from May, made me get up and do something useful.

      The only interesting snippet was an intervention from a favourite son of Scotland, Alberto Costa. I can’t stomach the arse licking toad, BUT, he had a go at May about his Italian parents, and not wanting to be asked to vote to remove their EU rights!!!!

      WTF?? I’m pretty sure he would happily sell his parents for the Tory cause, and its taken from June for this issue to permeate his tiny brain?

      I think he is the pasty for the internal Tory rebellion to begin.

    171. orri says:

      Think we’ve already got a handle on that bit of exports via English ports being treated as trade with England rather than their ultimate destination. The obvious question then is whether England will refuse an independent Scotland passage through to our markets. Given they did prior to 1707 it’s not that far fetched.

    172. Bob Mack says:

      @Tam Jardine,

      It is the subject of ongoing academic study. No doubt we will hear more in the near future.

    173. Heartsupwards says:

      As for indyref 1 & 2 , we should not forget that 15% of the Scottish electorate are English born at any one time and has been the ongoing trend for many years. It is not my intention to demonise English people living in Scotland but indigenous Scots cannot ignore this extremely influential fact. This is a main factor why Scottish independence from the UK will never happen. I believe Scotland would have voted YES in indyref 1 if not for this weighty factor.

    174. Cactus says:

      Hey there @Blair Paterson ~

      “For what it’s worth I was in wilkinsons in Camberley last week and was told by a young girl customer to go back to where you belong you bloody foreigner to be fair she was told off by the staff who came to my defence the girl had heard my scots accent and did not like it but as I say she was young and so was I long ago”

      Looks like this young girl customer was unknowingly a fan of the ‘Foreigner.’

      How fitting, dig it..
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0xgjdY6zq4

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      I’ve been trying to emphasis my utter contempt for these sorry sacks by using BBC approved humour, and to show them they are completely unable to impact on my psyche. Hopefully loosening some social capital in the process, as well, aiming to undermine their feeling of entitlement.

      I’ll take your point on board though and try to be a bit more accessible in future. 😉

    176. Nana, eternal gratitude for this link comprehensively debunking the ‘4 times more trade with rUK than the EU’ lie which got its diurnal airing via the loathsome abstainer Red Tory Jackie Baillie and the Queen’s Eleven sectarian bigot and SGE Constituency reject Murdo Fraser in the Holyrood Chamber yesterday.
      Who put the ‘Rotter’ in the Rotterdam Syndrome?
      In a nut shell there is no way to calculate the imports and exports to England and its colonies from Scotland.
      Almost all whisky which we export to the EU, and the rest of the world, goes via English ports therefore is counted as Scots exports to England.
      The same applies to timber beef fish IT products, and so on.
      I’d venture that banking, finance, and service industry business conducted in Scotland/Edinburgh but with a brass plate and a post restans in London is considered rUK income and exports.
      It is clear that UK companies do not break down their income, imports, exports by ‘regional; performance, and this is reflected in even the Bayonet of the Scots Iain Davidson’s Unionist packed Westminster Scottish Affairs Referendum Propaganda Paper at the time.
      A Sainsbury store in Scotland buys eggs bacon and milk from Scottish producers, who sell on to Scottish consumers, the profit from which is calv culated as RUK income, from Scottish food and drink ‘exported’ to rUK without leaving our country, and served up at Scottish tables?
      Oil exports of £37 billion, and a ‘missing £36 billion unaccounted for in their own footnotes, serve to expose the lies and misinformation peddled by the Red Blue and Yellow crypto Nationalist Tories, as vile and sinister propaganda as evil as Hitler’s Reich.
      Fraser was on BBC last night, peddling this myth, unchallenged by the interviewer, a lass whose name escapes me.
      He argued that Scotland would get the cold shoulder from England post self dtermination, because England would prefer to negotiate with Brazil, India and China, as ‘punishment’ presumably, for the temerity of exercising democracy and opting for Self Dteremination.
      FRaser reminded me of Nixo during the Nixon Kennedy debates. He was perspiring badly, sported a five o’clock shadow, and black too much coffee rings under his eyes.
      He should never play poker. He has two ‘tells’. He blinked constantly as he lied about exports to the Uk, and what confirmed that he was fibbing to me; he opened his mouth and spoke out loud.
      Like the myth of Scotland’s Black Hole of £14.9 billion,(It is reported that RUK is to borrow an ADDITIONAL £100 billion this year. Black Holes in Blackburn Lancashire?) which the TV channels allow to go unchallenged, this latest tossery about our trade deficit with rUK is given maximum uninterrupted air time.
      I call you a liar, Murdo Fraser. Prove me wrong. Show me your source documents that prove that we export more to England than the rest of the EU, and the Universe Beyond.

    177. Nana says:

      @Fred

      It’s worth repeating

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fILSnM7MyyQ&feature=youtu.be&a

      and how times change

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdGse42sOU

      Forgot to remove the https, waiting for the hammers to fall!

    178. Hamish100 says:

      Liz g

      Keep on the message. No distractions or comments that can be used against us all

    179. One_Scot says:

      ‘This is a main factor why Scottish independence from the UK will never happen’

      If I did not know any better I would say that you are John (I have no money to pay my bets) McTernan.

      Scottish Independence from the UK will happen. There, that statement is no less valid than your one.

      You cannot state facts that you clearly have no way of knowing. It just makes what you say look and sound like bollocks.

    180. Fred says:

      @ Cameron, remember there are ladies always present here, don’t be a tosser kid!

    181. ScotsRenewables says:

      @heartsupwards

      It is true that if only Scots born in Scotland and resident in Scotland had been allowed to vote the result would have been a very narrow YES.

      It is also likely though that if people born in Scotland but living in England had been given the vote the result would have been an even bigger margin for NO.

      So – messing with the franchise is not the answer. Hearts and minds dear boy, and banging on about irrelevant and divisive factors such as country of birth is really not helpful. You need to talk to people. We have a Frenchman living here long term who took a lot of persuading because he said it was not his business, but he voted YES in the end.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fred
      🙂

    183. Les Wilson says:

      With references to our cross border trade with Yoonland, why oh why, is it ever scarcely or at all highlighted that WE, buy more from said Yoonland than they buy from us.

      That is a fact, and by good measure. If they imposed hard borders, then they are going to have very many manufacturers there very angry. Then there are the thousands of jobs lost too.

      This needs rammed down their throats. I understand the SNP are walking carefully towards our aim, but the public need to get this absorbed to, much more should be made of it.

    184. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Bliar McBloater has some bloody nerve, seems to be a unionist trait to lie and then pat yourself on the back at the good job you have done deceiving the more gullible in Scottish society!

    185. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 1.26
      The odd reminder of exactly what they are does no harm I think.
      Just don’t want you to risk diluting the message.
      Also giving them the excuse to be offended and tag you as just abusive,so therefore it’s legitimate to ignore you.

      I am only suggesting a more selective use of the reminder of exactly what they are might have more impact.
      I am not repeat not claiming that I am personally offended,or that you are being abusive.
      It just the potential for them to spin it that way I am drawing your attention to.

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hamish100
      You are correct on this occasion but you are neither my keeper nor confessor.

    187. Brian Powell says:

      ScotsRenewables

      The result showed that if only Scots had been voting there would have been a substantial Yes.

    188. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hamish100
      And if you have further criticism of my style and approach, please show me the common courtesy of addressing your concerns to me directly. TA.

    189. Liz g says:

      Hamish 100 @ 1.31
      Pretty much agree Hamish…in principle.
      But I have no interest in stewarding other adults.
      I felt I was offering Cameron some friendly advice that he is free to ignore.
      Only with a view that it may enhance his message,his actual language I have no problem with.

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Not a problem Liz. I need to be more mindful it is the accommodation of difference that we seek. Efforts towards inclusion requires measures to reduce barriers to accessibility. It’s all coming back to me now. Lol. 😉

    191. t42 says:

      Obama just offering himself to the No campaign in indyref2:

      “It starts looking different and disorienting. And there is no doubt that has produced populist movements, both from the left and the right,” he said.
      He said Americans must guard against those trends during Trump’s presidency, and insisted he, too, would speak out against divisive language even after he leaves office.
      “We are going to have to guard against a rise in a crude sort of nationalism or ethnic identity or tribalism that is built around an us and a them,” he said.

      http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/15/politics/obama-greece-news-conference/

    192. Sinky says:

      We have to convince English born or educated citizens that a progressive welcoming Scotland is a better option than an isolationist Ukip lite Tory England.

      Taking Montenegro as an example, the EU placed a 55% threshhold on their independence from Serbia referendum which was only narrowly surpassed despite having only 45% of the population that considered themselves as Montenegran and a mainly hostile Serbian population of 29%.

      A lovely country (population of only 650,000) worth visiting which uses the Euro despite not being in the EU.

    193. HandandShrimp says:

      I see that BritLabour UK are sounding more and more like Brexiteers. One does wonder just exactly what the Labour position on anything actually is.

    194. Nana says:

      Anyone want a laugh, here’s Dugdale and her idiots party’s reasons for abstaining yesterday

      http://archive.is/XPFdG

    195. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie
      Sorry Cameron I seem to have opened the door for you to get some criticism.
      I should have kept my big mouth shut.
      I hope you can accept that was not what I intended.
      So again Sorry,and I won’t take any further part in this conversation.
      Which is way off topic anyway,which is where I thought originally I was commenting,cause that’s where I usually read your stuff.
      So sorry to everyone else as well for not marking my post OT.
      I’ll away and either shoot myself or drink….any preferences?

    196. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      I thought it was all dealt with. Stirrer. 😉

    197. Macart says:

      @Scottish Renewables

      I agree. Whatever the math of the last referendum, whatever the demographics, whatever the stereotype and labelling, its about convincing people resident in Scotland that they are Scottish citizens.

      Its about convincing them that Scottish politics doesn’t have to be the politics of Westminster. It can be the politics they choose it to be. Its about convincing people that as Scottish citizens they CAN have certain rights, a constitution which guarantees and protects those rights. Its about letting them know that being a Scottish citizen isn’t about simply an accident of birth, but a choice and an act of will.

      IMV we need to let folks know that being a Scot is a state of mind as well as a matter of residential geography or ancestry. 🙂

      The alternative is exclusion and watching the current societal car crash being enacted by Westminster, that should be a heads up as to how well that approach works out.

      ‘Course that means there is one very important decision folk have to make as a first port of call. Its there for them if they want it. All they have to do is …hold out their hand.

    198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HandandShrimp,

      It’s kinda eerie, BLiS and the FibDems seem to be slowly morphing into Tory Unionist Isolationists, as exemplified for example by that vote (or non-vote) in Holyrood the other day. I know we refer to them disparagingly as “Red Tories” and “Yellow Tories”, but they really seem to be taking it to heart.

      I’m beginning to wonder how long it’s going to be before we end up with the United Unionists as opposition party.

    199. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Heartsupwards at 1.21

      I understand your points and the concerns you raise. It is an issue that has to be dealt wit very carefully. Apart from electoral considerations the immigration of retired, well-off, non economically active people from the south is forcing native Scots out an inflated housing market and providing no children for our rural schools. These are however as you say not bad people. They are merely taking advantage of generous circumstances they are in as most of us would.

      We must remember that many English in Scotland also voted YES, many of them the working ones and more from the further north in England they came from. We just have to work out how to get to the rest. They have to be reassured that they are safe and welcome even if they purchase the Mail (or the Express which is down to 15P again).

      Some arrive among us with some of the same sort of misconceptions about Scotland and the Scots that the English entertained about what was a sophisticated society in India.

    200. Sinky says:

      So far, 1,673,289 people have made their voice heard in the National Survey on Independence / Brexit.

      Go to wwww.snp.org to take part by 30 November

    201. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Our priority is jobs. The SNP’s priority is independence, whatever the cost.” – Kezia Dugdale.

      And with ALL the levers that come with independence, Scotland will be able to control its own economy much more effectively than Westminster has ever done, creating new jobs and new opportunities and keeping our young people here in Scotland. Westminster prevents us from doing that, Ms Dugdale. Westminster is holding Scotland back, placing us in increasing debt (of THEIR making) and that you fail to see and understand that obvious truth simply beggars belief.

      The UK is a failing state and with Brexit will become a failed state going cap-in-hand to the IMF (again – only Scottish oil revenue got them out of a hole last time round).

      If your priority is jobs, Ms Dugdale, then your priority has to be independence for that is the ONLY sure way of getting what you apparently desire. Make your mind up time, Kez.

    202. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Oh jings Nana! That is a catastrophic release by Dugdale and a complete refusal to accept what has brought us to this sorry constitutional and economic pass in the first place.

      A consumate example of weasle worded scapegoating and revisionist denial if ever there was one. We’re well rid of them after all.

      Who knew?

    203. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Nana says at 2:20 pm

      So basically we abstained ‘cos SNP Baaaaaad 🙂

      I particularly liked the comment:

      “I lead the only party that doesn’t just believe in the United Kingdom for its own sake. We believe in it as the best way to redistribute power and wealth across these islands.”

      She neglects to mention that this redistribution of power and wealth she talks of is to BLiSs financial backers/lobbyists/EX MPs/EX MSPs etc.

    204. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus:

      See me @ 2:32am 🙂

      Peace Always

    205. Another Union Dividend says:

      On Scotland’s exports to Europe and Labour’s spin on their abstention or Lib Dems unbelievable siding with the Hard Brexit Tories, more pro-indy supporters need to write on a regular basis to Unionist newspapers and BBC phone-ins to counter the yoon propaganda.

      Wings is very informative but we need to persuade the undecideds many of whom buy Unionist papers out of habit but are subliminally influenced by the constant SNP bad narrative.

    206. CameronB Brodie says:

      Macart
      “Who knew?”

      I did but apparently I’m a bit weird. 🙂

    207. t42 says:

      “retired, well-off, non economically active people from the south is forcing native Scots out an inflated housing market and providing no children for our rural schools.”

      this garbage fuels the no campaign slogan:
      too racist, too sexist, too xenophobic, too stupid, too poor, etc. (and too ageist now it seems!)

    208. Another Union Dividend says:

      Nana says at 2.20 The motion that Labour abstained on makes no mention of Independence or Indy Ref 2.

      Motion on Single Market 15 November 2015
      That the Parliament recognises the overwhelming vote of the people of Scotland to remain in the EU; supports calls for clarity from the UK Government on its proposals to leave the EU, including whether it will seek continued membership of the single market; notes the reports of the Fraser of Allander Institute and the National Institute of Social and Economic Research regarding the negative impact that leaving the single market would have on the UK and Scottish economies; recognises the opportunities for business and citizens that come from a Europe-wide approach to trade, regulation and free movement and the importance of ensuring that the benefits of this are shared fairly across society; supports the Scottish Government’s efforts to assist businesses in Scotland to secure new international opportunities; believes that the UK Government should seek to maintain Scotland’s place in the single market, and, in the event that the UK Government cannot or will not secure that option, calls for Scotland’s place in the single market to be fully protected.

    209. CameronB Brodie says:

      “I lead the only party that doesn’t just believe in the United Kingdom for its own sake. We believe in it as the best way to redistribute power and wealth across these islands.”

      Apparently never heard of the McCrone Report that here own party commissioned then buried as deeply as possible. Before her time I suppose. 🙁

    210. Cactus says:

      A neutral point of interest for anyone interested..

      To re-familiarise, when CameronB refers to ‘BBC approved humour’, I believe he refers to this.. enjoy your trip down memory lane:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_UGD7AazMI

      We Are Not Kidding!

    211. Les Wilson says:

      I turned on the radio this morning to BBCs, and admit I heard only part of the conversation between P Harvey and Gary Robertson.
      This was apparently about Council tax funding, Harvey going on about how the Councils need a better way to get funding.

      Then Robertson got excited when he asked Harvey who would he work with to achieve his aim of getting the changes required. Harvey said he would work with any of the parties on the issue.

      Well, Robertson was very happy about that, obviously a good chance to undermine the SNP using Harvey must have came to his mind.
      What does that say about Harvey though?,and what really are his intentions. One thing is for sure he considers himself and the greens king makers in Holyrood.

    212. Nana says:

      @Macart

      Catastrophic release just about sums up labour.

      another link…

      Alex talks about Trump & brexit

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2016-11-16/salmond-on-trump-protectionism-makes-everybody-poorer

    213. Ken500 says:

      Labour illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasions. Wasting £Billions of Scottish money and lying about it. Starving the vulnerable to death, killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Giving taxpayers money to their wealthy associates. Greedy, selfish, lying, lazy murderers.

      The only cushy jobs they care about their’s.They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Most of them should be in jail. Embezzling, tax evader criminals. Making the lives of the vulnerable even more difficult. Women and children have been disproportionately affect by the welfare cuts the Unionists have brought in. Wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident and Heathrow. Coarse liars. It is disgusting. Aiding London S/E. Increasing the North/South divide. Just wicked.

    214. Returnofthemac says:

      Tv on Brew ha ha political programme just watched Alberto Costa and Murray ganging up and shouting down Kirsty Blackmann. It was like two wee pencil case shifters ( wimps) in school bullying the intelligent girl in the class.
      Quote from Murray “if SNP take Indy ref 2 of the table we can concentrate lazer like on Brexit.
      WTF……….

    215. Macart says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      You and me both then. 😀

    216. Cactus says:

      Smallaxe ~ I likey likey, tis worth repeating..

      I am an Earthman who lives in Scotland.I have children grandchildren and
      assorted relatives living in different parts of our Earth.

      There can be no such entities as Foreigners.

      Simples ?

      Peace Always

    217. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cactus
      Thanks mate. I was beginning to think I might actually bit weird, innit. 😉

    218. Andrew McLean says:

      This is the part that has Kezia’s knickers in a twist,

      “in the event that the UK Government cannot or will not secure that option, calls for Scotland’s place in the single market to be fully protected.”

      Yes i suppose it would be frightening if you are a servant or a slave, that is fighting talk. You see the Labour party are Westminster first, if Scotland should ever get ahead, oh my God! Terrible just Terrible,
      Like the use of capitals in the unsubstantiated “FOUR TIMES” you can tell what paper she reads. So her missive boils down to SCOTLAND KNOW YOUR PLACE.

      And they wounder why only fools would vote labour now.

    219. Ken500 says:

      Obama/Clinton are finished. A warmonger couple of stirring liars. They did nothing for the American people or the US economy. Illegal bombing the Middle East to bits and causing mass migration in Europe. To line their own pockets. They should be in jail forever. They are finished. Good riddance to them. A couple of total lying chancers. They are still trying to stir up trouble.

      Obama played the race card to win. Clinton played the gender card to win. Now they are trying to make up excuses for their duplicity. Edward Snowden can maybe go home, Assange can leave the Embassay, Chelsea can get out of prison. Targeted for telling the truth. An international disgrace. Obama/Clinton have destroy the world economy.

    220. Cactus says:

      ps Smallaxe ~

      Nobody has requested to ‘See me’ since Skooldaze.. like a teacher writing this comment on a submitted and returned paper. Shiver doon me spine, so cheers for that, memory lane indeed 🙂

      The tide is coming in again peoples, be sure to keep above the waves.

    221. Macart says:

      @Nana

      I think Alex and Mr Schmieding pretty much nailed it. The augurs from Brexit aren’t good even though the effects have yet to hit and the analogy of ‘jumping off the Scott monument and declaring half way down that everything was okay so far’ was a peach.

      Also IMV, bang on the nail over the rise of protectionism and protectionist rhetoric. When the other boot drops, its impact going to be felt by everyone big time.

      When people put up the shutters, stop trading, stop interacting, in fact simply stop communicating. Just who are they planning to sell their wares to? Who will consider themselves a partner, a friend, an ally in the world?

      How small can you make your world and still consider yourself part of it?

    222. Brian Powell says:

      Returnofthemac

      Did Murray give any indication of who he was talking about when he said ‘we’?

    223. sinky says:

      Great stuff from Derek Bateman

      One way I changed my own mindset was in admiring the bold pro-EU stance taken by Tim Farron who is the only UK leader talking my language about the need to stay inside the European family of nations, not just for trade purposes but for humanitarian ones of mutual support and social solidarity. It means standing against public opinion as expressed in the referendum because it is a point of principle, one that can’t just be dropped because of a short, dishonest campaign based on xenophobia. That’s not easy when the ‘people have spoken’. So there I was adjusting all my partisan dials to accommodate the Lib Dems whom I’ve previously written off as dishonest and untrustworthy, when the Scottish branch actually vote against single market membership being protected. Against the single market. It not only destroys my touching faith in Liberals, it confirms their place back at the bottom of the trust rankings. Good night, Tim.

    224. Fred says:

      Wee Ginger Dug brilliant in the National today…….Good Guy!

    225. Glamaig says:

      @t42

      in the same speech Obama said he had been celebrating Greek independence day in the White House.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKirW7AQ2oo

      Those damn divisive Greek Nationalists splitting from the Ottoman Empire! (with British help as it happens). The British love democracy except when it happens in Scotland.

      Of course the phrase about nationalism was the only part of the 50 minute speech repeatedly broadcast by the BBC, I have a feeling it wasnt aimed at Brexiteers.

    226. Cactus says:

      Smallaxe ~ See above.

      You and all have probably gathered that..
      ‘Simples ?’ was surposed to be ‘ Simples 🙂 ‘

      Looks like WordPress turned your smiley into a question mark.
      (Note: Your copied emoticon showed as a square on input but as a smiley on preview)

      In future, I will write all emoticons manually 😉

      Anyway, back to and on with the show..

    227. Dr Jim says:

      The CIA should employ Alex Rowley

      Imagine being tied to a chair and being forced to listen to him, I defy anybody to say they wouldn’t talk, I’d be screaming any information they wanted, I’d confess to anything just to make him stop

      Gordon Brewers campaign of stupidity and malice against the SNP continued at pace today by deliberately missing out the facts and then torturing us with Rowleys drone then on to his insulting behaviour towards Gillian Martin SNP MSP
      just in the same style as (I am an Italian when it suits me) Alberto Costa, earlier in the day towards Kirsty Blackman SNP MP

      We live in a country where the BBC idea of fairness and impartiality is to not only award immense amounts of time to political parties who have little to no representation in either parliament but to also help these incompetent parties out by framing and answering the questions they should ask of the Scottish government thus saving those incompetent parties the effort of having to think for themselves (kind of the BBC there)

      I’ve noticed more and more recently the re introduction of the female politician bullying tactic from the BBC interviewers along with the smirky self satisfied looks of superiority when dealing with women politicians, and it’s happening on SKY as well
      If I were a woman (which I’m not) I’d be getting really pissed off with this by now, given I’m a man,(which I am) maybe I’m just as bad because I want to punch these guys in the face in protection of the women so I guess I’m a different kind of dinosaur

      Whatever I am I don’t like what’s happening and I want to hear the women every bit the same as the men (except Alex Rowley of course) but I think that’s generally a given eh?
      Oh, and Jackie Baillie…Phew!

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      Macart

      When people put up the shutters, stop trading, stop interacting, in fact simply stop communicating. Just who are they planning to sell their wares to? Who will consider themselves a partner, a friend, an ally in the world?

      There is a lot of jingoistic tub thumping going on but the global economy is too integrated and dynamic to be interested in what politicians have to say. They’re generally just wee, yapping, bothersome things with little real power or effect over events.

      The oil and arms industry and it’s connections with the financial sector and corporate media, are what is shaping the world today. Real power resides in the shadows of dark places.

      Personally, I’d like some human rights and a written constitution. Nice.

    229. Bob Mack says:

      Hello Wingers,

      Yesterday I wanted to post a piece about oil, but it became too complex for myself. Today I am posting again,but I have decided to simplify it somewhat to avoid confusion. The first thing to remember is that Scotland does produce annually around 800,000 barrels of oil.

      What is in a barrel of oil ? It is 42 gallons distilled to give various products. These are

      19 gallons of petrol (95 l) taxed at 57.95p per litre plus a built in pump VAT charge of 20%.

      12 gallons of diesel (60l) taxed at 57.94p per litre plus a built in pump charge of VAT of 20%.

      Sufficient LPG to fill 12 camping gas cannisters £5 each at VAT of 20%

      Asphalt for road and roof ( 1 gallon) £36 at VAT of 20%

      Car lubricants sufficient to make 1 litre 67p duty.

      Four pounds of charcoal briquettes for your barbecue £13.39 at band VAT at 20%.

      Wax sufficient to make 170 birthday candles( £2.95) VAT at 20%.

      1 litre of paint thinners £10.99 VAT at 20%

      1 litre of cleaning solvent £10.99. Vat at 20%.

      Around 10 litres of jet fuel which if used in a private plane is 57.95p per litre.

      I have added it all up for you and the revenues in tax and VAT that can be expected from from ONE barrel of oil and it’s derivatives is £ 122.67p

      Multiplied by 800,000 it is £98,136,000,00. That is £96 billion.

    230. Returnofthemac says:

      Brian Powell re Murray. Don’t think he knew who he was talking on behalf of as long as he was making the point SNP bad.

    231. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus:

      Another wee shiver,here’s a star in your book for being good*
      Another Wan fir luck* 🙂

      Peace Always

    232. Malcolm Muir says:

      Classic Rev – absolute classic. So thanks to you for all of it….

    233. Cactus says:

      Hey Bob Mack ~ Excellent research!

      That’s a lot of money that Scotland could be making.
      Most people won’t be aware of the variety of uses too. I wasn’t.

      £96 billion per year

    234. Liz g says:

      Macart & Nanna
      RE Alex’s warning.
      The American left seem to be saying the same thing,they are really worried about Fortress America.
      They are pointing out that while the population might think it’s a good way to go and support it.
      Most of them don’t realise that the country can’t even feed it’s self.
      They are worried about an international blacklash if America go ahead with Trump’s policies.
      Yet we get nothing about that for the UK if they go for a hard Brexit.

      While no one in their right mind would want it.
      In theory there could, I think, be a self sufficient Scotland if need be.For a wee while anyway till we woke up and re-engaged.

      But I am not so sure the rest could feed themselves and keep the lights on.
      And I don’t see anyone telling them that especially in England.
      The rich will eat and can move out,but Fortress UK will be a nightmare for the rest,and,no one is telling them that.
      Americans are worried that the rest of the world will move on and leave them to it.
      But Westminster’s behaving as if the rest of the world can’t and won’t go forward with out this little island.

    235. Bob Mack says:

      @Cactus,

      it is not the whole story. According to American sites the UK also imported over 21,000 tons of crude for refinement. One ton is 7.3 barrels of crude. This equates to 150,000 barrels of oil on which we in Scotland should have a population share.

      when you add this to the figures I have given above,it makes no sense our total oil revenues were around £63 million. I am not sure of our VAT receipts as yet,but I am checking.

    236. heedtracker says:

      Kennfarq strikes again. He was telling us all how we’ll be getting major federal UKOK powers with Brexit, last month. How that toryboy shyste squares with holding back the tide of Trumpian YES voters in his Scotland region of greater England land… I have no idea.

      There’s some stunning mash up youtube vids of that conman Glen Campbell monstering Sturgeon for getting involved with corupt China corps, BBC Scotland news style. While the BBC England creeps grovel hard to PM’s Cameron and May, as they sign gloriuos and wonderful China corp deals, for England. Even for hardened vile seps, they’re an eye opener.

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 2h2 hours ago

      Kenny Farquharson Retweeted Glenn Campbell
      That’s interesting. Sturgeon “preference” is UK access to single market rather than Scotland-only solution. Important. Nats please note.Kenny Farquharson added,

      Glenn Campbell @GlennBBC
      .@NicolaSturgeon acknowledges difficulties in going down this route, preference for UK as a whole to stay in single market
      0 replies

    237. Liz g says:

      Bob Mac @ 3.34
      Well done.. Thanks for that
      Can I ask have you or could you say how much that is per head of the population (Scotland)?

    238. Liz g says:

      Returnofthemac @ 3.41
      That might be Murray letting slip what some have been saying.
      That its only fear of losing Scotland that’s stopping them moving on Brexit.
      Gonnay be be really interesting when these cabinet papers are released..hope I’m still around to see it.

    239. Bob Mack says:

      @Liz g,

      if Scotland were the sole recipient of such revenues then each citizen would have around £ 19,000 per annum.

      It is not the price of a barrel of oil that ultimately matters, it is the revenues accrued from each barrel and the products from distillation. Whether the barrel is $100 dollars or $40 dollars the chancellor takes the same amounts.

    240. Macart says:

      @Liz G

      No, they’re not being told the whole story, or anything like the facts of a situation. They’ve certainly, as we are only too aware, been told many lies about the economy, their trading partners, their constitutional partners and their place in the world.

      Short termist political expediency and agenda drove their narratives. Its going to come back to bite them and if you think the harm it has already caused within the UKs society and populations has been been awful, then what inevitably comes next has the potential to be nothing short of catastrophic.

      The populations of the UK are about to find out that the rest of the world has opinions too. That their populations, their politics, their economies and businesses have needs that are far more important to them than what Mayday or Bojo want.

    241. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      Good work Bob, however Scotland only exports the oil. The excise duties and VAT on the refined products are collected in the countries that the product is sold in to the final consumer, e.g. the car driver.

      Scotland would only be due the taxes collected in Scotland and taken from buyers in Scotland.

    242. Proud Cybernat says:

      98 Billion? YOu sure that shouldn’t be £98 million?

    243. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Bob Mac

      £98 billion? You sure that shouldn’t be £98 million?

      800,000 x 122.67 = 98,136,000.00

    244. Bob Mack says:

      Calculator wonky. Will get back. Think it is £ 9.7 billion rather than 97

    245. Cactus says:

      Smallaxe ~

      Aye, a good guy in some ways, a bad boy in others!

      Chairs for the stars, here’s two for you too **

      ‘Mon the Scotland!
      X.

    246. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Bob Mack

      Bob–see the Wings article here:

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/junkies-tramps-and-thieves/

      UK produces around 860,000 barrels PER DAY.

      This equals 313,900,000 barrells per YEAR.

      Hope that helps.

    247. Broch Landers says:

      You nailed it.

      Unionism has been forced out into the open to define and defend itself in ways that were never needed when independence held little appeal for most Scots.

      Back then, being in the UK was just common sense. Everyday. Banal. Normal. Safe as affordable houses and heavy as heavy industry normal. Red post boxes and square teabags normal.

      And what we see is that Unionism isn’t merely a euphemism for British nationalism. It’s a byword for British nationalism of the most base, coercive, reactionary, blood and soil, know-your-place-in-the-plutocratic-hierarchy variety.

      Like Trump it is simultaneously imperial and parochial. Like how a two-year-old sees the world.

      Even so-called socialists like John Mcdonnell (and I actually WANT to like him) are beholden to it with his lame, lazy anti-independence rhetoric, every ‘internationalist’ syllable dripping with English superiority and childish disdain for a progressive movement that just wants to try to deliver workable social democracy on its own patch on the basis of a ‘nationalism’ that surely must be one of the least essentialist and most civic-minded anywhere in the modern world.

    248. Thepnr says:

      @Broch Landers

      You nailed it Broch!

    249. Cactus says:

      Which makes.. £38,506,113,000.00

    250. Proud Cybernat says:

      Excellent Broch. Nail. Wallop!!

    251. Chic McGregor says:

      Bob Mack,

      Good idea but current North Sea production is running at about 500 million barrels per year.

    252. Liz g says:

      Smallaxe @ 4.08
      LOL… I suspect we’re gonny need a bigger blender !

    253. Macart says:

      @Broch Landers

      Well said.

    254. galamcennalath says:

      While reading Derek Bateman’s latest (which is very good) I saw a reference to Thatcher’s lot being at the heart of creating the Single Market in the first place. Wot!?

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Cockfield,_Baron_Cockfield

      “Lord Cockfield resigned from the cabinet in September 1984 to join the European Commission as commissioner for Internal Market, Tax Law and Customs under Jacques Delors, and a Vice-President of the first Delors Commission. He was expected to follow Margaret Thatcher’s eurosceptic line, but became a driving force in laying the groundwork for the creation of the Single European Market in 1992. Only a few months after he arrived in Brussels, he produced a mammoth white paper listing 300 barriers to trade, with a timetable for them to be abolished.”

      I generally have a low opinion of Thatcher era Tories, well to be honest any Tories, but there was a time when UK Tories took EU seriously and understood the value of open and free trade, it seems.

      Now we have a bunch of plonkers who at best are witless idiots and at worst Hell bent ultra nationalists.

    255. Liz g says:

      Someone should tell Alberto Cos..thingy MP.
      That his parents would be safer and more secure as EU immigrants if they remain in or move to Scotland.
      A Scotland that becomes independent.
      Then he won’t have to worry about what Theresa May orders him to do….well in regards to his parents anyway
      If he wants to do the best for his parents,he should join the Yes campaign.

      Any Volunteers??

    256. Grouse Beater says:

      Liz: “Any Volunteers??”

      Mio padre e Siciliano. I’ll tell da boys to have a word wid him. You know, help da guy see sense widdout leaving any bruise marks. Capice?

    257. Hamish100 says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      16 November, 2016 at 2:01 pm
      Hamish100
      And if you have further criticism of my style and approach, please show me the common courtesy of addressing your concerns to me directly. TA

      O dear upset your crown? I address who and when I wish as you seem to do

      cheers

    258. Liz g says:

      Grouse Beater @ 5.19
      Aye make him an offer he can’t refuse.
      On condition he helps the act of the Union sleep wi the fishes.

    259. Orri says:

      The stupidity in the family becoming foreign argument is that, mainly, they meant living in a foreign land. Which leads into needing passports or ID cards in order to visit or additional charges for phone calls or surface mail. That presumed that after independence it’d be England that put up fences or built a wall on the assumption Scotland would be outside the EU and people would forget that as the rUK is exempt from Shengen it would be the rUK opting for that.

      The spanner in the works is with Brexit there’d have to be an excuse other than the threat of armed insurrection as to why no such hard border would be being raised in Ireland.

    260. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hamish100
      Crown? Are you stirring? Not interested.

    261. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob Mack thanks for working out those figures but remember when we’re independent we won’t be picking up the tax n vat of 800’000 bpd (heard it’s probably going to be double that or more next year) we will only get those taxes for the products consumed in Scotland , still a tidy sum though 🙂

    262. Robert Peffers says:

      @Les Wilson says: 16 November, 2016 at 1:46 pm:

      “With references to our cross border trade with Yoonland, why oh why, is it ever scarcely or at all highlighted that WE, buy more from said Yoonland than they buy from us.
      That is a fact, and by good measure.”

      Is it Les?. I note you frame that as a question but do not punctuate it as such and you state it as a fact, which it is not, and furthermore offer no evidence or cite to evidence to make your point.

      The reason is that as the population of, the people of Scotland is of several orders less than that of the Kingdom of England, (three countries), then we must talk of proportion or percentages.

      However, that does not even cover the matter properly for the methodology used by the Westminster Establishment to calculate anything whatsoever to do with Scotland is wondrous to behold and bears no relationship whatsoever to the truth.

      Just let’s begin with a single UK wide retail outlet and we will take ASDA as that example. Drive down any main drag between John o Groat’s and Lands End and you are sure to pass or be passed by many ASDA massive pantechnicon like vehicles delivering ASDA Branded goods throughout the entire British Isles. The point of that is all the places those large juggernauts ply their trade with are registered to pay their taxes at ASDA’s head office.

      Which, surprisingly enough is NOT in London but is in Leeds. Thus the figures for ASDA are all registered as English. Thus the ASDA figures cannot tell the truth and neither do those from almost all UK wide business. Here, though is the real truth hidden behind the facts.

      If, Err! When Scotland becomes independent ASDA, and every other former UK wide business will either have to have, at least a token Registered Head Office, in Scotland and so will all other business’ that want to do business in Scotland.

      At the moment anyone can have a London Head Office set up in London for less than £20 Sterling.

      It may be no more than a telephone answering service and a Post Office Box Number and the company providing the service forwards the messages to the Business but on paper it is a London Business Head Office for tax purposes.

      The jobs stay where they are and there need not even be a brass plate screwed on a wall to establish a head office.

      The tax on the profits made in a country must be legally paid to the country with the registered head office. In the UK, though, it is paid to the country of England as if England and the UK are one bug country. Then they do the figures and it seems England is the source of more revenue than is actually gathered from England alone.

      That is why they need a head office in each country they do business in throughout the World except in the UK..

      It is a legal requirement that in order to pay tax a company must register and have a head office. That is why the Yoons are determined to insist that the United Kingdom is really just a single country and not what its legal title calls it.

    263. Chic McGregor says:

      OT Murray wins over Nishikori after tough match.

    264. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus:

      G T T 🙂

      CHECKMATE

      Mair wee stars*****

    265. Dr Jim says:

      The whole world says Scotland’s great and Green and the bestest in all the world at loads of stuff but England keeps saying we’re shit
      The whole world knows who Nicola Sturgeon is now even places like Venezuela where they never heard of Theresa May
      My First Minister comes on my computer and tells me what’s happening in the world and what she’s doing to sort stuff out, I can even talk back to her in a wee email or a Tweet, I don’t Tweet but I could If I wanted to
      Theresa May doesn’t even talk to her own government without a duracell battery bunny saying the same thing over and over

      I always thought the oil belonged to the King of Extra Regia Territory Land
      I just don’t know what his name is (Tory God?)

      How come they keep telling us we don’t produce enough Lekky when we’re laying cables carrying the stuff to Englandshire and Turbining the stuff out of the sea
      Then when the constitutional fight is over all of a sudden we’re producing Lekky, Gas and all sorts by the ton

      Same with the oil we’ve got loads of the stuff until the SNP name’s mentioned then it disappears
      must be really volatile stuff that oil that it can change minute to minute depending who’s talking about it

      It’s about time we decommissioned Mrs May and her parcel of rogues
      Civil disobedience tell her to Fukc off but nicely, is that the definition of civil?

    266. Alex Waugh says:

      I’m a ‘foreigner’ several times over. My dad was Scottish but my mum was French and never relinquished her French nationality, which passed to me, so I’m French and Scottish. But, my family are from Alsace which, at various times, has been German – so, I’m French, Scottish and German, depending on how many generations back you want to go. My daughter lives in England and is married to an Englishman (and a lovely man, at that) and I now live in Cyprus where, obviously, I am a foreigner. We are all fucking foreigners to a greater or lesser extent and I find the use of the word as a pejorative deeply insulting. There’s not a damned thing wrong with being a foreigner and I’m rather proud to be such a total mongrel. However, the nationalities I identify most strongly with are, first, Scottish and then French. The problem, and the ONLY problem, is the scum-infested, self-serving, lying, scheming, venial, warmongering, scrofulous, can’t-even-think-of-a-word-bad-enough verminous whoresons of the Labour/Tory establishment in Westminster. I wish, oh god I wish, that we could tell the lot of them to fuck right off and take their ‘Little Englander’ morons with them. Englanders who are, if they had enough intelligence to realise it, total mongrels themselves – and nothing wrong with that; mongrels are vigorous and strong. I’m angry and frustrated and fed up with my birth-nation being vilified by the parvenue, gravy-train riding parasites that are the government and media of the London-centric elite. Aaaaaargh !!!!! Rant over.

    267. Undeadshaun says:

      @Chic McGregor
      @Proud Cybernat

      North Sea oil production for 2015 was 1.64 million barrels per day, which equates to 598 million barrels for 2015.

      Production has increased this year and estimated production is 613 million barrels of oil.

      Figures here…

      Activity Survey 2016 19 feb Flipping book version.indd – Oil & Gas UK

      https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://oilandgasuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Oil-Gas-UK-Activity-Survey-2016.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwibyIeS663QAhXII8AKHTM3AFMQFggnMAE&usg=AFQjCNH0t8eNfTOdPCAWdEVMcW7zbYZvmA

      production expected to rise to 1.74 million boepd by 2018.

    268. K1 says:

      Good rant Alex.

    269. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O/T but Oil related Shell to shed 300 jobs from Glasgow.

      https://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/11517/380-shell-jobs-at-risk-in-scotland/

      “Around 380 jobs are at risk after Royal Dutch Shell said it intends to shut down its Glasgow operation in response to the low oil price.”

      Same Shell who’s partners on the Schiehallion Field BP are now bypassing Sullom Voe which is “a commercial decision to maximise recovery”.

    270. Cactus says:

      Smallaxe ~

      Guru Teaches Trainee?

      * X 12 (that’s the number of stars on my Saltire / EU flag).

      T T G 🙂

    271. CameonB Brodie says:

      K1
      Paragraphs might have helped but I suppose they interrupt the spontaneous flow of a good rant. 🙂

    272. Smallaxe says:

      Alex Waugh:

      AND……Relax

      🙂

      Peace Always

    273. Stoker says:

      Top 10 news stories according to BBC Scotland Text Service for
      16 November 2016 @ 6pm:

      (1)-Car shooting murder was targeted attack.
      (2)-Scotrail to halt rush-hour stop skipping.
      (3)-Murray beats Nishikori in London epic.
      (4)-Stressed men prefer heavier women.
      (5)-Shell to axe 380 Scottish finance jobs.
      (6)-Pauper funerals cost £500,000 a year.
      (7)-East Ayrshire worst for hate tweets.
      (8)-Formula milk bill passes Commons hurdle.
      (9)-Giant airliner in island exercise.
      (10)-IndyCamp eviction cost Holyrood £100,000

      Absolutely appalling!
      Who is responsible for prioritising these stories?

      IMO, numbers 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 all take priority over No1.

      Re story number 5, i wonder how many of them voted ‘No’?

      Also @6pm Jackie Bird announces headlines:
      (1)-There’s been a murder….
      (2)-Handy Andy wins in London….

      That’s yer lot folks, a despicable excuse for a news outlet.

      BBC Scotland = London controlled mouthpiece.

    274. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus:

      A gypsy fortune telling tramp of a thief told me.

      Peace Always

    275. Bob Mack says:

      So, if we now know that revenues of one type or another from a barrel amount to over £122, we need a definitive number of barrels per day to work out the total revenues.

      These sums could be astronomic. Why was Scotland share only £63 million?
      I have not even begun to look at gas.

    276. Chic McGregor says:

      Undeadshaun

      That is barrels of oil equivalent. Includes gas.

      About 60% is liquid oil.

    277. Cactus says:

      Smallaxe ~

      Cool, now I understands.

      Scotland.
      *.

    278. heedtracker says:

      Massie of the Times says YES Scots are the Donald Trump’s of his Scotland region today but he says it could be worse.

      Not sure how? It’s Alex Salmond’s fault/tory smear opportunity. A Murdoch twit’s not going to play nice but neither Salmond or Sturgeon hid from telling us what they thought of Trump, none of which counts for anything on UKOK planet toryboy, shock.

      alexmassie ?@alexmassie 2h2 hours ago
      But, let’s be fair, wealth and celebrity are powerful commodities. Who among us can blame Alex Salmond for being dazzled by them? Oh.

    279. Robert Louis says:

      You will have to bear with me folks, but this has been irritating me for some time.

      So, from what I have seen in the media – and who knows if it’s right, but it seems that the SNP is no longer determined to keep Scotland in the EU. All The FM’s talk of ‘remain means remain’ seems now to be nothing short of hot air.

      Maybe somebody can correct me here, but from what I am hearing from NS today, they are perfectly happy to leave the EU, all they seem to care about is the single market. Sorry, but access to the single market, is NOT MEMBERSHIP OF THE EU.

      If this turns out to be correct, the SNP can go f**k themselves sideways. Don’t shout about ‘remain means remain’, then spin it as something else.

      Have to say, I am just not sure why NS is so freaking bothered about the UK. Her job is to look after Scotland, and we voted to stay in the EU, not the ‘single market’.

      Getting michty tired of what the SNP are getting up to, and I’m probably not alone. I must say, we knew where Salmond stood on issues, but I ma getting really frustrated at the continuous backtracking on the EU issue now. It will not do. I really do not care about the ‘single market’ because leaving the EU will cause major problems whether we are in OR out of the ‘single market’.

    280. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 16 November, 2016 at 4:12 pm:

      ” … however Scotland only exports the oil. The excise duties and VAT on the refined products are collected in the countries that the product is sold in to the final consumer, e.g. the car driver.”

      It is a very long time since I researched that subject but is there not a further duty, I can’t remember the name, collected on every litre of refined fuel, or other bi-product, as it leaves the refinery gates? It’s a bit like the alcohol duty they charge upon whisky as it leaves the whisky bond.

      The Treasury first gathers licence money from those wanting to prospect for oil in any block, then they gather licence money to extract the oil and/or gas. Then charge duty upon every barrel at the well head and the duty upon the stuff on the garage forecourt, (that is Road Fuel Duty).

      Not to mention that they also levy capital gains tax upon the companies and tax the profits made by their share holders.

      Nor to mention that when the wages and profits made are eventually spent they have their share of it by way of VAT on whatever is bought with those earnings and profits.

    281. Tinto Chiel says:

      O/T but not really.

      I see the BBC World Service is to receive £289,000,000 from the government and over and above the licence fee to expand its service. However, says nice BBC lady, there will be no government editorial control of output, which is nice.

      Thank God I can’t hear the World Service, because then by definition I’d be a Johnny Foreigner and would be subjected to blatant Britnat State Propaganda.

      Mmmmm, something not quite right with that last bit…..

      Sometimes it’s a blessing being a half-educated tenement-dweller.

      Innit?

    282. heedtracker says:

      Calling all Trumpian YES votes of the Scotland region, we’re just like Trump votes because,

      Donald J. Trump ?@realDonaldTrump

      .@AlexSalmond of Scotland may be the dumbest leader of the free world. I can’t imagine that anyone wants him in office.” (Oct 29, 2013)

      STV, very tory crew, 7 September 2016 at 10:27am

      Trump is a ‘manbaby’ according to former first minister of Scotland Alex Salmond Credit: PA
      Presidential hopeful Donald Trump is a “manchild” who poses a “real and present danger” to US security, Alex Salmond has said.

      The former first minister of Scotland has claimed that the billionaire businessman is emotionally similar to Peter Pan – the boy who never grew up – and can swing from “bonhomie to bullying” in a single conversation.

    283. Bob Mack says:

      This is mind boggling. If as some have said that UK production is running at 500 million barrels a year that would mean potential revenues would be 500,000,000 multiplied by a revenue potential factor of £120. Is that ?ight ?

      My maths ain’t up to that and neither is my calculator.

    284. Nana says:

      O/T

      For anyone who missed this earlier today. Last segment about the brexit debate and Scotland

      http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/alex-salmond/the-alex-salmond-phone-in-16th-november-2016/?utm_source=Direct

    285. David says:

      I thought Scotland was persuaded to vote No in 2014 in order to protect our jobs, and that we could rely on the UK’s “broad shoulders”?
      Did Westminster ever think to inform Shell of that?

      Shell sacking 380 workers in Glasgow is a very nasty deal. There is a 45-day notice period, so that means that all those people could be handed their P45s on Jan 1st.

      The jobs will go to other Shell Business Operations sites around the world, here’s the list and how many current vacancies they each have:

      Bangalore, India – 194
      Chennai, India – 46
      Cape Town, S Africa – 0
      Glasgow – 6
      Krakow, Poland – 76
      Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia – 28
      Manila, Philippines – 69

      Typical “race to the bottom” by multinational Shell, jobs will be going to locations where wages are lower than in Glasgow. My guess is they will be in Poland and India. All the sites are big cities, ie relatively high office rent, so the only differential will be the lower wages on offer abroad.

      It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. In 2009 my own job with a computer company was outsourced to Chennai. This outsourcing may be good for the company, but it is bad for Scotland.

      We lose jobs, income tax, company rental money for office space, wages being spent locally, etc, etc.

      The sooner Scotland gets independence, and the ability to make our own deals for everything, the better. Westminster rule is bankrupting Scotland/North Britain.

    286. heedtracker says:

      I see the BBC World Service is to receive £289,000,000

      That lot are ferocious tories. They’ve got Irish tories that routinely rage away at the Republic of Ireland, for not being British and part of the union. They continually try to terrorise their Scotland region listeners in their 2014 vote NO campaign especially, culminating in a terrifying story about Islamic terrorists beheading shoppers in Australian shops, with the Oz PM ordering 1000’s of Australian police in man hunt, and this morning, Scotland goes to the polls to break up the UK…

      It was fcuking frightening and not exactly based on facts n shit, BBC style.

      That was Australian nutcase and PM Tony Abbott, fighting for BetterTogether. No idea what happened to that tory lunatic.

    287. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      Do you think the dissemination of factual information might be loosening some bowels? 🙂

    288. Liz g says:

      Robert Louis @ 6.42
      What I think is going on,although I don’t really know anymore than anybody else is.
      Nicola has said Remain means Remain and that I will make happen if the Scottish People want me to.

      So far as per our referendum and the general election Nicola’s is obligated to do the best for Scotland within the UK.
      Thats what both those Votes mandated her to do,so she is kind of stuck with it.

      Then we as a people tell her we want to stay in Europe,so she CAN make that happen in two ways.
      1.She gets Westminster to agree to organise it that way.
      2.She gets us to vote for Independence.

      So if Westminster won’t agree to leave our membership as it is like we voted for.
      She has to find out what they will agree to.
      Then she has to ask us if that enough for us to agree to stay in the Westminster Union.
      It’s not a case of her dialing back her demands.
      It more about finding out exactly what Westminster is offering to us because we clearly didn’t vote to give any of it up.
      So it becomes will they leave enough of Europe to satisfy the majority of Scot’s.
      That’s how I see it anyway.
      And I am just greatful that the Scottish politicians are asking.
      Because the other lot would just have gone along with it.

    289. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tinto Chiel says: 16 November, 2016 at 6:47 pm:

      ” … Thank God I can’t hear the World Service, because then by definition I’d be a Johnny Foreigner and would be subjected to blatant Britnat State Propaganda.
      Mmmmm, something not quite right with that last bit…..
      Sometimes it’s a blessing being a half-educated tenement-dweller.
      Innit?”

      Eh! Sorry to have to tell you this, Tinto Chiel, but the BBC World Service Broadcasts throughout the UK. It is the next channel up from Radio Scotland on the DAB Radio channels.

      It is on Channel 710 on the TV Radio section.

      Then at midnight when BBC Radio 4 on DAB closes down with, “Goad help Auld Lizzie”, they then broadcast the BBC World Service.

      It may also be on FM VHS channels too but I get next to nothing on FM where I live.

      BTW: My Mum & Dad worked on the Tinto Estate for some years and then worked in the Tinto Hotel and lived in the village of Symington for some time before moving to Australia in 1962.

    290. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      Sorry but it’s not right. A barrel of oil is worth on the open market just exactly that. The price of a barrel of oil on the open market.

      Now when some country buys that oil and processes it into it’s constituent products, then that country can tax or not each product as it sees fit. Excise duty, VAT and other tax, these taxes will go to the exchequer where the product is sold.

      We cannot collect tax on a barrel of oil produced in Scotland but sold in France or Germany and for the same reason we could not collect tax on a barrel of Scottish oil sold in England.

      It’s our oil but their tax.

    291. heraldnomore says:

      Loved the Engerland flag at the tennis. AFAIK there isnae an English player in the whole tournament; they’re aw furreners…

    292. Thepnr says:

      Tobacco is grown in Virginia USA, we make the cigarettes and sell them. The UK taxes tobacco more highly than most countries and raises a lot of revenue. The tax does not go to Virginia. It stays here.

    293. Les Wilson says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      This was what I was referring to Robert. I think it is fair to assume that as this is the BBC figures, it may well be more.

      “The most recent Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland.”

      Here is the link

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28916642

    294. Bob Mack says:

      @The pnr,

      I am talking about the oil used within the UK. So it is right. Remember we had to import 20,000 tons to fulfill our energy needs last year. If you mean we are selling Brent crude to somebody else then fair enough,but it begs the question. If we are selling it,then why do we have to import as well

      By the way.Vat is collectable per barrel sold to Europe,or imported from Europe but not for countries outwith.

    295. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      16 November, 2016 at 7:05 pm
      heedtracker
      Do you think the dissemination of factual information might be loosening some bowels?

      Its certainly making our tory masters look silly. Or, how many democracies aroung the world are being monstered toryboy style with Trump’s win and Trump’s America?

      See Trump? That’s you that is.

      On top of that, Trump loves Brexit, he loves Farage, planet toryboy loves Farage, the BBC loves Farage, BBC loves UKIP, Andrew Neil look post coital on his Trump’s a god so vote tory BBC politics show today and on it goes, toryboy’s like Massie and Kenfarq, desperate UKOK liggers, reaching for anything to stamp out Scottish democracy.

      What’s that ridiculous toryboy Torrance saying, see Trump, that’s you that is Scotland, I’d bet you, a Macternan welcher bet too:D

    296. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Eh! Sorry to have to tell you this, Tinto Chiel, but the BBC World Service Broadcasts throughout the UK. It is the next channel up from Radio Scotland on the DAB Radio channels.”

      Thanks for the warning, Robert. Told you I was half-educated. 😛

      I won’t touch that dial.

      Still nice countryside around Tinto. Ospreys on the Clyde in the summer.

    297. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      All I’m saying is that if Scotland was Independent then any taxes raised on oil products outside Scotland would not be part of Scottish revenues. Our revenues would be based on the markt pice of oil sold in the first place and the taxes levied on those companies operating in Scotland that sold the oil in the first place.

      Plus as you have pointed out the taxes borne by business and individuals using the refined products that are collected here in Scotland.

      We do not use or sell 800,000 barrels a day of refined products in Scotland so it’s not the right place from which to start your particular calculation. Is all I’m saying.

    298. Bob Mack says:

      @The pnr,

      I don’t think we would be slow developing our refining and storage facilities in any event .

      However,if we sell 400 million barrels to whoever at whatever price and keep 100 million barrels for refining I would be happy enough anyway.

    299. heedtracker says:

      Yup Torrance’s got the “you’re all Trump Scotland” bug too, shock. Tory liggers of a feather…

      David Torrance Retweeted
      alexmassie ?@alexmassie 11h11 hours ago
      Q: Why hasn’t Trumpism or Kipperism thrived in Scotland?
      A: Because it doesn’t need to. And there isn’t room for it.

    300. heedtracker says:

      So from a few tory twerps like MacD, in all UKOK newsrooms daily trying to slander Scots and the fledgling Scottish democracy,

      David Torrance Retweeted
      alexmassie ?@alexmassie 11h11 hours ago
      Q: Why hasn’t Trumpism or Kipperism thrived in Scotland?
      A: Because it doesn’t need to. And there isn’t room for it.

      to actual reality,

      Alex Salmond MP
      3 hrs ·
      Retweeted LBC (@LBC):
      Salmond: There was no rise in hate crimes after Scotland’s referendum, unlike with Brexit and Trump

    301. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      I would hope for more than that Bob, when not huge expansion at Grangemouth and Mossmarran and Cruden Bay. Same goes for our ports and airports!

      We can and will be so much more as an Independent country.

      We’re on the same side Bob, revenues are far understated though it isn’t easy to get a handle on the exact figures though I believe the SNP in Westminster are asking these exact questions right now.

      We’ll get there in the end though, for now it’s good enough for me just to know that we are being robbed. I already have the belief.

    302. Bob Mack says:

      The most important thing we can take from the oil debate is that any potential deficit they talk about would be utterly wiped out by our potential earnings from either selling the oil and from our revenues here in Scotland.
      That is enough to be going on with.

    303. Artyhetty says:

      Liz@7.22

      Yep, it is possibly,or probably as simple as that. The other thing I would add is that the ScotGov are transparent, they actually hide nothing no matter what the rUK like to make out. It seems the absolute opposite with the UKok government, it’s based on secrecy, it’s shifty, scheming, and therefore in fact undemocratic to say the least. Just who do these people think pay their extremely generous wages?

      Perhaps the UKok gov think they have a divine right, ruling like overlords.

      Scotland, now even with devo light, operates in a more egalitarian, transparent and open way, the unionists absolutely hate that. They bring down governments around the world for having such audacity as to consult the actual people, especially on crucial sensitive matters.

    304. Catherine says:

      Yet these people who won 3 out of 3 seem to me the angriest. No pleasing some folks

    305. North chiel says:

      ” David says@ 0654pm ”
      Don’t suppose they’ll be many job losses at Shell UK HQ
      Shell Centre in London though.
      ” better together with Shell “

    306. Returnofthemac says:

      Robert Louis @ 6.42 and liz g @7.22
      Agree with liz, I think NS hands are tied here. Until such times as it obvious that we have the majority on board for independence. I think we are almost at the end game now. I always think NS has the interests of the people of Scotland at heart. I have waited 66 years for independence. I hope I can hang on for another 4or 5. It will happen.

    307. msean says:

      They must think everybody is stupid. In no way does the Yes campaign reflect Trump nor anything near. I do however, see Mr Trump in a gold elevator with a guy who was chased out of Edinburgh by some students who came not just from Scotland.

      He campaigned against Scots 🙂 taking their country back along with the Tories,Labour and the LibDems.

    308. Iain More says:

      OT

      Brutal news day. I almost busted ma mithers TV set when I saw McCoist blabbing about how we should get Smith and Ferguson in to sort out the footie. Effin Yoon dinosaurs, aye right!

    309. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob Mack the North Sea “Brent” oil is low in sulphur and light making it better suited to refining into Petrol and Diesel, other oils are better suited for other products , that is why they will be importing.
      It’s also sold on the International markets (Rotterdam if I remember correctly) so the best price may be available internationally as its a premium product.

    310. heedtracker says:

      Other things that never happen in MacD and Kenfarq’s Trumpist YES Scotland,

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/us_and_canada

      Trump told by New York mayor that city is ‘fearful’ of him
      46 minutes ago
      From the section US & Canada

    311. K1 says:

      So this is now Law:

      ‘The Investigatory Powers Bill has been passed by both Houses of Parliament. Once it receives Royal Assent it will become law’

      Just one of the many powers this bill now has:

      ‘Under the IP Bill, security services and police forces will be able to access communications data when it is needed to help their investigations. This means internet history data (Internet Connection Records, in official speak) will have to be stored for 12 months.

      Communications service providers, which include everything from internet companies and messenger services to postal services, will have to store meta data about the communications made through their services.

      The who, what, when, and where will have to be stored. This will mean your internet service provider stores that you visited WIRED.co.uk to read this article, on this day, at this time and where from (i.e. a mobile device). This will be done for every website visited for a year.

      Web records and communications data is detailed under chapter 3, part 3 of the law and warrants are required for the data to be accessed. A draft code of practice details more information on communications data.’

      http://archive.is/KSd9a

      All being done for ‘our protection’?

      Aye. Right.

      On the ‘face’ of it the rationalisation is that it will monitor criminal/terrorist/sexual abuse activities etc but as we all know it ‘can’ also be utilised to hone in and pattern all online ‘behaviours’ of any ‘group’ that they ‘deem’ ‘enemies of the state’.

      Of course there is no way these ‘powers’ can be ‘abused’ by our present government or any other government that may come into power in the UK in the future…how stupid of me to even ‘think’ such a thing.

      *dons tinfoil pyramidic bunnet*

    312. Iain More says:

      @heedtracker

      Kipperism and Trumpism thrives amongst the ultra rich and the white settlers. I get an earful of Kipperism daily in the Laich of Moray. We get Trumpism daily in the fawning lickspittle yoon rag that is the P&J who would probably perform sexual gymnastics on a trapeze wire for him if he clicked his fingers and the same at Brexit Britannia TV Aberdeen.

    313. Thepnr says:

      @K1

      Not sure you fully grasped the meaning of the bill.

      Web and phone companies (CSPs) will store records of websites visited by every citizen for 12 months for access by police, security services and other public bodies upon issue of a warrant.

      We’re all going to have our web traffic monitored and stored whether we like it or not. It will be there for them if they need it. By the way they can also plant bugs in your house take over your webcam with a warrant of course.

      That at least makes me feel better, ah, they need a warrant. FFS

    314. K1 says:

      Thpnr…why you no sure ah’ve no ‘fully grasped the meaning o’ the bill?

    315. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Thepnr Webcam taped er onnyhoos

    316. Thepnr says:

      Sorry K1 but it was your last paragraph that left me unclear when talking of crimnals etc.

      I wasn’t sure if you knew that everyone will be monitored, criminal or not, but now I am. We will ALL be monitored, just in case you turn out to be a criminal in the future of course.

      In other words, there is no longer a need for government to require a warrant to gather information on a member of the public. It used to be they required “reasonable cause” on the suspicion that a crime had been or was about to be committed. Now no longer.

      No warrant required, the information will be gathered from ALL irrespective.

      That is the significance of the bill. ALL might be guilty until proven innocent.

    317. Thepnr says:

      @ronnie anderson

      LOL sure they have tired of looking you straight in the face everyday anyway ronnie 🙂

    318. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Thepnr lol ave been practicing ma girning face fur ah long time nae wunner they’re tired of seeing it.

    319. G. Campbell says:

      Merryn Somerset Webb (WATP In Union Advisory Board) must be Scotland’s most popular person.

      BBC Question Time broadcasts from Scotland:

      29 Oct 2015 – Edinburgh, Scotland: Annabel Goldie, Keith Brown, Kezia Dugdale, Merryn Somerset Webb, Billy Bragg

      10 Mar 2016 – Dundee, Scotland: Ruth Davidson, John Swinney, Jenny Marra, Willie Rennie, Patrick Harvie, Tim Stanley

      12 May 2016 – Aberdeen, Scotland: David Mundell, Humza Yousaf, Kezia Dugdale, Jim Sillars, Merryn Somerset Webb

      17 Nov 2016 – Stirling, Scotland: Kwasi Kwarteng, Chris Bryant, John Nicolson, Merryn Somerset Webb, Cat Boyd

    320. heedtracker says:

      Big brother’s watching you now and Scotland’s bad.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38004836

      East Ayrshire is UK’s worst for homophobic, sexist and racist tweets
      4 hours ago

    321. K1 says:

      Yeah, think ‘tone’ can be lost in written comms Thpnr…ah wis being utterly sarcastic and derisive ‘disguised’ as naive and stupid (last para).

    322. Thepnr says:

      Been a bit quiet, so hope this cheers you up.

      Well done Jock & Janet Scot and the Ninja Penguin, new release.

      “We are the Britnats” starring Tank Girl and Fluffy 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Xzg3NbzMc

    323. Sinky says:

      GA Ponsonby on how BBC protecting Labour over their abstention in yesterday’s Holyrood vote calling on parties to unite behind Scotland’s effort to remain in the single market as voted for by each of the 32 local authority areas.

      http://indyref2.scot/category/ga_ponsonby

    324. Liz g says:

      Artyhety @ 8.23
      I also think that’s why they are so spooked by the amount of SNP MP’s down in Westminster.
      Unlike the Labour one’s from Scotland the SNP can’t be trusted to keep their secrets.
      How many Scot’s in high positions since the McCrone report and all during Thatcher and since,and they said not a word.
      Donald Dewer Father of the nation’s devolution Pfft.

      Returnofthemac @ 8.51
      I had also forgot to add in my post to Robert Louis
      I never saw the Remain means Remain statement from Nicola as a promise to us.
      I thought it was Nicola telling May,if the Scot’s really want to Remain it will happen and its really not up to you.
      And at the end of the day it will be.
      If we don’t like what Brexit looks like for us we don’t have to do it.
      That’s not in Nicola’s gift either,she can only organise a vote and make a recommendation.

      The Scot’s will vote to accept it or not.

    325. Still Positive. says:

      G. Campbell @ 10.09

      Is she even Scottish? If not, we are outnumbered. Kwasi Kwarteng absolutely hates Scotland and any time I have seen him on parliament TV he runs the SG down with a pack of lies.

    326. Liz g says:

      G Campbell @ 10.09
      Merryn Somerset web ….from money weekly?
      Did the Rev no mention something about that magazine recently?
      An SNP bad article,wiz it her?
      Anybody know?

    327. Sinky says:

      Financial Times tomorrow leading on UK £100 billion “Black hole” shortfall in their finances which will add even more interest Scotland that is liable to pay under the notional GERS figures.

    328. Sinky says:

      A foretaste of what to expect on Question Time tomorrow evening

      http://moneyweek.com/merryns-blog/

      Hope John Nicholson follows Wings

    329. Tam Jardine says:

      G. Campbell @ 10.09

      Aye- Merryn is popular with the BBC. Wonder what the fee is? So: no:yes ratio is 3:2, 4:2, 3:2, 3:2

      And Billy Bragg- love him though I do is a supporter with a certain respect for the democracy of Scotland rather than a yesser, and James (again, I like and respect the man) is something of a thorn in the side.

      Merryn is strange though- hardcore Scotland in Traction type yet no obvious connection. She must just hate is all. I wonder if Dimbleby will present her Traction advisory board status when introducing her… or is she just money week editor?

      One thing is for sure- her blog is pure shite. Last post I commented on I represented 25% of all comments! 25%!

    330. heedtracker says:

      Toodleoo the noo renames his Scotland region of greater England. Not sure if it will take off though, fellow devolved territorial types.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37993119

      Its all bad, the SNP are bad etc

      “Problems? Plenty. Firstly, EEA members are currently all autonomous states, not devolved territories like Scotland.”

    331. Liz g says:

      Why is the Tory and Labour MP’s on Question Time no from a Scottish Constituency….oh wait.
      Hope John Nicolson mind’s tae ask how their constituents view all these Scottish issues their MP’s are representing tonight on TV.
      I am sure those constituents will be on the edge of their seats waiting to be represented.

    332. Clootie says:

      Lenny Hartley @9:08pm

      Lenny you are about 30years out of date!

      I managed Bravo and Charlie for 12years. The Oil was once of that quality and platform leg stored before transfer to the Spar for tanker offload. The gas was flared. Later the Bravo was the gas collector station for pipeline to St. Fergus and Charlie was the Oil station to Cormorant ( previously Shell but sold to Taqa).

      The field went sour many years ago and we had real problems keeping to export spec.

    333. Robert Peffers says:

      @Another Union Dividend says: 16 November, 2016 at 2:45 pm:

      ” … more pro-indy supporters need to write on a regular basis to Unionist newspapers and BBC phone-ins to counter the yoon propaganda.”

      And a fat lot of good that’ll do, AUD. Been there, did that, got the T-shirt ripped from by back.

      Writing to newspapers and phoning or texting Radio and TV programmes is on a par with repeatedly leading horses to water.

      No matter how many times you lead the horses to the water the result is exactly the same. You have no trouble leading the beasts to the trough but they, not you will decide if they are going to drink.

      Editors and producers are much the same. (Not so bright as the cuddies though). You have no problem writing or texting but they, not you, will decide if the letter, phone call or text will be printed or aired and the hard truth is that if it in any way puts them or the UK in a bad light it will be filed in the waste basket.

    334. Sinky says:

      In true BBC Scotland tradition, Dimbleby will not mention Merryn’s Scotland IN Union connection as she will be presented to uninformed viewers as a respected neutral economist.

    335. Another Union Dividend says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      “And a fat lot of good that’ll do, AUD. Been there, did that, got the T-shirt ripped from by back.
      Writing to newspapers and phoning or texting Radio and TV programmes is on a par with repeatedly leading horses to water”

      You should try again, as I have had letters published in Sunday Times, Daily Mail, Herald and Scotsman etc.

      No point in criticising the newspaper in question and You should stick to short but to the point corrections to yoon assertions, including their article writers, also empathise with some of their points but then plant seeds of doubt on their arguments.

      You are trying to influence the undecideds not the 100% hard core unionists

    336. Cactus says:

      Cheers again Al ~ muchos thankos.

      Scotland.
      *.

    337. Ken500 says:

      Oil revenues.
      Figures could be wrongly calculated. (UK Giv deception)

      Before 2008 £12Billion a year in Oil revenues were being taken. Oil price was $120 a barrel? 2008 Banking crash. Revenues halved to £6Billion. Countries were using less Oil world wide, in recession. In 2009 Taxed at 70% UK Gov was taking 50% half of production. Plus a 20% supplementary charge. = 70%. The fiscal policy was dependant of price. The tax was lowered as the price fell to aid continued production. ie keep jobs and supplies stable. etc.

      2010 Budget. The Condems Osbourne/Alexander put it up 11%. 11% was £2Billion. The UK Gov was taking 50% – Half of production – metered on the rigs. Plus 20% supplementary tax. 11% tax was added worth £2Billion. This took the tax up to 80% of production. The Price started to fall. So the oil & Gas production companies lowered production (ie cut back on drilling new, exploration holes. 20% (100% minus 80%) was not enough to cover expenses and make a profit.

      Projects already started were finished – but less new drilling was was started. The situation got worse and people started to lose their jobs. The price kept on falling and the tax remained. Thiusands of people have lost their jobs.

      Eventually Osbourne took the tax back down to 60%. The price kept on falling. Eventually it stabilised. The price started to rise. Osbourne put the tax down to 40% in January, 2016. The price is now $46? a barrel.

      Decommission is going on. The rig structures are needing replaced. They are past their prime. There were suggestions Oil tankers could be used to take back the oil to shore. There are connecting pipe lines. That was the method used when production at started over forty years ago.

    338. Ken500 says:

      @ Clootie

      Just noticed the post. After posting. Same relevance.

    339. Still Positive. says:

      QT tonight (now) will be the usual stitch-up. How many Scottish voices will we hear apart from the 2 on the panel?

    340. Clootie says:

      Ken500@11:56

      In the mid nineties we dropped the reservoir pressure in the Brent field and put on new top sides (RPMs). This changed the Brent field from Oil to Gas. At one point producing over 10percent of the UKs gas requirements.

      I now manage an FPSO which still uses tanker offload and ithe Oil is sold on the open market – usually at a price above spot market.

      I suspect offloads at various European ports may not appear as a Scottish export. 🙂

    341. Cactus says:

      Scotland is the missing star, turteen.

      *.
      Scotland.

    342. Chic McGregor says:

      @Bob Mack
      “This is mind boggling. If as some have said that UK production is running at 500 million barrels a year that would mean potential revenues would be 500,000,000 multiplied by a revenue potential factor of £120. Is that ?ight ?

      My maths ain’t up to that and neither is my calculator.”

      It would be great if it was that simple, amounting to around 40 or 50 grand per family in Scotland per year.

      But as Thepnr and others have pointed out, the tax take on petrol and other products only accrues to the exchequers of the various countries it is exported to at point of sale.

      The current price for Brent crude is only about $47 a barrel. So that is all the oil is basically worth.

      Regarding value added to the Scottish economy from other products of oil, gas is a main one but the other product potentials are reduced by Brent crude being light and not a good yielder of those. Also you would need the refining capacity to realise them, which we have at Grangemouth.

      A game changer for Scotland, is the nature of the oil discoveries West of Shetland, which is heavy in nature and something the likes of Grangemouth can get its teeth into.

      Scottish sourced broad range petro-chemical products now has real potential.

      So it is a good time to highlight the other products and their potential earning power for Scotland, if not quite in the way you envisaged.

    343. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re: the ongoing attempt by yoons to establish a natural link between Scotland’s organic nationalism and far-right Trumpism.

      This is nothing more than neo-fascist gimps attempting to acquire a new legitimacy for Yoonery, by stoking fear while acting as the authoritative umpire of the debate. This is a corporatist strategy that is employed by established power, to stamp out grass-roots demands for change.

      @FAN-BOY
      Not a fan of the principles of contemporary social science? Not a supporter of human rights?

    344. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus:

      The star is rising.*

      Peace Always

    345. Cactus says:

      Karma is timing, timing is karma smallaxe.

    346. Cactus says:

      Smallaxe, we must have some cool inter-connectivity 🙂

      Good vibes.

      Tell me more about that gypsy..

      Cresting the rising tide.

    347. Cactus says:

      Me n Dixie were oot the night in the city of Glasgow.

      We kicked ass!

    348. Cactus says:

      I Love Glasgow.
      I Love Scotland.

      *.

    349. Cactus says:

      Hehe, one again 🙂

    350. Cactus says:

      It’s a beautiful day..

      The sun is shining..

      I feel good..

      Who’s gonna stop me?

      Absolutely no-one.

    351. Ken500 says:

      The complete lost of revenues from Oil production – is not the price it is the tax rate fixed by Westminster. Osbourne destroyed the Oil revenues by his fiscal regime (ie tax regime). For whatever reason. Ignorant?, spite? Incompetence? Or the IndyRef. He was going In and out of Aberdeen incognito consulting with the Oil companies (bosses/administration).

      Cameron’s show at the IndyRef coming up in Airforce jets and helicopter to get (Oil) industry Heads to come out for NO. To (illegally) influence Indy Ref breaking the Purdah period. It was totally irresponsible of these (CEO) people in industry. They were destroying their own industries, leading to recession. They all went down and are now struggling for profits. All the NO (Indy ref) supporting companies are now reporting profit warnings. Lower profits etc, With Brexit. A complete and utter mess.

      Scotland will have to vote for Independence. To have control over it’s own affairs and build a more equal and prosperous country. Westminster/Unionist control is just a shambles.

      The effect of the Tories/Unionists policies on Scotland and the Scottish economy is truly appalling. Imagine trying to take Scotland out of the EU, with 62/28% wanting to stay in. Stripping the people in Scotland of their democratic rights.

      For the last 5/6 years Scotland has lost at least £4Billion a year in Oil revenues because of the Tories policies. Thousands of lost jobs etc. £20Billion+ it is not the price that has been stopping production It is the (oppressive) tax. More Oil and Gas has to be imported into the UK. Putting up the (UK)balance of payments deficit. Importing non taxed fracked US Gas etc. Scotland is in surplus of all it’s needs. Surplus in food and energy. 25% surplus in energy but pays a higher tariff, (10%) because it is colder despite being near the source. A tarriff on the whole economy. Holding Scotland back.

      Scotland is still raising the same tax revenues without Oil revenues – £54Billion. An improvement because of the SNP fiscal policies, They are a really good government. Especially in the circumstances with Westminster constantly trying to hold the Scottish economy back. There is no doubt that Westminster is taking £Billions from the Scottish economy by policies designed to favour London S/E. It has always been the case since 1928 and before.

      Scotland has become (pro rata) better off since Holyrood was established. More democratic but the electoral system was designed to keep Unionists disproportionately in power in Holyrood to thwart Independence and preveny Scotland truly more equal and prosperous. If Scotland gets more prosperous and equal – so does the rest of the UK. Scotland should be governed by people who live here and are majority elected there. A democracy just like any other countries.
      .

    352. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus:

      from Barlanark to Barlinnie
      from war and peace
      I’ve travelled many miles
      and I’ll never cease

      Peace Always

    353. Cactus says:

      Listening to the radio tish-now..

      Listening, I’ve just had a revelation of our revolution.

      It’s coming real soon.. shtay tuned..

      See me there.

    354. Dorothy Devine says:

      G Campbell, perhaps we should all write to the BBBC to ask why Dundee has been deprived of the bon mots of the Merryn wifie – is it because the Yessers of Dundee might stuff her back in her boxie?

      I am tired of the insulting BBBC Scotland and of the just as insulting John and Rhona show – I cannot believe it is the “most watched political show ‘ on the telly.
      Does that mean three sad ba$tard$ watch it , while only two watch any other output?

    355. Cactus says:

      Let’s see what happens by the end of March next year..

      It’s a marker point.

      Thereafter that, Scotland decides.

      Love.

    356. Ken500 says:

      The ignorant, incompetent Press is still going on about immigration numbers in isolation, as a bad thing.

      They are not considering the affect of the U.K./US France bombing the Middle East to bits for years. Resulting with migration into Europe and the effect that is having on migration numbers in the UK. The wars created by the West have robbed the Middle East/Europe of £Billions of assets and revenues resulting in countries bring impoverished. Increasingly causing the worst migration since 11WW,

      Migrants in the UK have helped the UK to prosper. It is UK gov Weetminster policies which is causing recession and depression (health) in Britain. The Unionist policies in Westminster are totally flawed causing the UK/world economy to stall, and not produce growth and prosperity.

      Westminster are manipulating the immigration figures. Including foreign students. Overestimating Indian student numbers. 10,000? a year. There are double the amount of US students coming to the UK. 20,000? A year. There is never any mention of blocking them. 80,000 Chinese students is accepted. The foreign students bring wealth and industry to the UK/Europe. The Indian Gov reciprocated by blocking shipping going into Indian waters without a Visa. Adversely affecting business and trade. The Indian Press reported it as ‘they want Indian money but they do not want Indian people’, (Students) I.e. racist.

      The UK Gov are not including the Brits in the EU who take citizenship in other EU countries so they have more benefit and pay less tax. Boris Johnston, the Foreign Secretary, gave up US citizenship in order to pay less tax (with public money). The Foreign Secretary who likes to insult other countries and is an incompetent, arrogant total disaster. Google it. A complete crook and philanderer. Criticised by associates and colleagues. A greedy hypocrite.

      Wasting £Billions in Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident/illegal wars and Heathrow expansion. When there are cheaper more viable renewable options. Anywhere but Heathrow. Causing mass congestion in the south and depopulating the North of the UK. Increasing the North/South divide.

      Westminster cutting real (pro rata) funding of the NHS/Education. A poor economy. Brexit is a disaster. The UK Gov had the best bargain any country could get from EU membership. £12Billion which came back double in benefits. The draconian cuts in Welfare benefits and the attack by UK Gov Unionists on the most vulnerable will cause unnecessary hardship of disproportion on women and children and the most vulnerable. the elderly and the sick. Causing death.

      The Scottish Gov always has to find a way to mitigate these cuts. Introducing Minimum Pricing, take 4 years+ because of Weetminster Unionist intransigence. The ‘Vow’ promises broken. Irrational Interference time and time again, which damages the Scottish economy, with policies the majority in Scotland do not support.

      People get anxious and can’t sleep, People are sick if it. Tired, worried hungry people, can’t sleep, heat or eat. They get sick and anxious. Develop mental health problems. It can lead to drink/drug excesses, loneliness, depression and people being unable to work. Causing homelessness. A downward spiral. Without one chance ‘total abstinence’ proper ‘rehab counselling people go to prison. Prison is more costly. Thatcher ‘ care in the community’ Jail.

      Cutting taxes for the wealthiest. Supporting tax evasion for the Westminster Unionist Party members and their associates. The Westminster Unionists do not enforce the UK tax Laws. So they and their associates can tax evade and break the Law. Totally corrupt to the core, embezzling public money. They make the Law and break the Law with impunity. Secrets illegally buried under the Offical Secrets Act. The UK is one the most unequal place in the world, with massive debt. The US is the same. One of most unequal country in the world with the most debt.

    357. CameronB Brodie says:

      Smallaxe
      Good morning mate. I thought it was time to apply science as one would salt to a slug. 😉

      However, while corporatism has proven unexpectedly resilient qua institutional structure – as also witnessed by the recent literature on the emergence of social pacts in numerous countries and regions (Regini, 1997; Wallerstein et al., 1997; Perez, 2000; Compston, 2002; Culpepper, 2002; Molina and Rhodes, 2002; Baccaro, 2003; Traxler, 2004; Hassel, 2006; Hamann and Kelly, 2007;
      Baccaro and Simoni, 2008b; Culpepper, 2008; Hassel, 2009; Avdagic, forthcoming) – the internal mechanisms that regulate the new corporatist deals, as well as the political-economic outcomes these deals lead to, are pointedly different from those usually associated with golden age corporatism.

      The corporatism of the golden age represented an alternative to neo-liberalism, namely to a political-economic regime in which the market is main mechanism of economic coordination, and conscious, political intervention in the economy is kept to a minimum. It was called a “superior economic system” for its ability to reconcile global economic integration, a large and activist public sector, and a capillary social protection system (Pekkarinen et al., 1992; Pontusson, 2005). The new corporatism is instead a policy process by which governments which, for various reasons (e.g. parliamentary weakness or fear of electoral retribution) are unable or unwilling to unilaterally pass controversial and potentially unpopular policy reforms, find a way to do so by activating a parallel (union-based) channel of consensus mobilization.

      Internally, the new corporatist institutions are much more participatory and democratic than in the old days. Unions, in particular, take great pain to democratically legitimate the outcomes of national bargaining through debates and referenda. This coexistence between market-conforming policy outcomes and democratic organizational features is not a coincidence – the paper argues – but a causal relationship. In the new political economic regime, trade unions are no longer rewarded for bargaining moderation through compression of market earnings and more generous social protection programs as they once were. The search for procedural legitimacy compensates for declining (or absent) output legitimacy (Scharpf, 1999).

      http://unige.ch/sciences-societe/socio/files/1614/0533/6311/LucioBaccaro.pdf

    358. CameronB Brodie says:

      @TUBA-BOY & FAN-BOY
      I ken your game. Fancy a square-go with a time-traveler?

      By world standards, Austria and Switzerland do well economically, although Vienna leans to socialism and equality while Berne emphasizes liberal capitalism and efficiency. The common element, Professor Katzenstein of Cornell argues, is “democratic corporatism” made up of the acceptance of social partnership, the centralization of interest groups, and a continuous process of bargaining and compromise over public and private objectives. He shows how this process has permitted the orderly and quite reasonable handling of difficult industrial changes in the production of watches in Switzerland, steel in Austria and textiles in both countries. This is an excellent work and quite persuasive. Whether large countries can find equally good ways of making “political stability and economic flexibility . . . mutually contingent” is another matter, as the author recognizes.

      https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/1985-06-01/corporatism-and-change-austria-switzerland-and-politics-industry

    359. Ken500 says:

      BBC Scotland political viewing is so low, they keep the figures secret. An absolute disgrace, They canvass against the would be listeners/viewers interest. No one should watch any TV programme they do not endorse. No viewers no programmes, The broadcasters end up speaking to themselves. A total bundle of lies and misinfirmation.

      One of the only Channels worth watching is the BBC Parliamentary Channel. To see what the ‘psycho bastards’ are doing. (Their own description). Before some ignorant, incompetent ‘journalist’ misreports it. MSM in Britain owned by Non Dom tax evaders. Telling a complete load of lies for personal benefit.

      Brexit is a total disaster. Manipulated by the corrupt Press and Media. Follow the Westminster/Western line or be put in prison. Assange, Snowden and Chelsea put in prison for life, for telling the truth. In a supposedly liberal democracy. Without a free and balanced Press there is no Democracy.

    360. Ken500 says:

      @ Nana – Your links are fantastic. As usual.

      How do you do it? Fantastic x x

    361. Ken500 says:

      Good day Mr Cameron B

      Interesting.

    362. McBoxheid says:

      I think Slab has squillions of loyal supporters, yes it true. They should be in government. In Westminster and in Hollyrood. What they do in an election, is follow the usual party line….and abstain 😉

    363. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ken500
      Morning mate. I wasn’t showing favouratism to Smallaxe. 😉 It was just that he’d posted a tune concerning “time”, an often forgotten dimension. Time changes everything and not always in visible ways.

      That is the threat that Scotland’s cultural integrity is under, incremental dilution over time. This acts against the continued resilience of indigenous culture and is ultimately an unsustainable approach to national development strategies.

      British nationalism is not born of Scotland’s environment.

      British nationalism is environmental pollution of an ideological nature.

    364. Smallaxe says:

      Nana:

      Thank you for the links,I don’t know how you do it, but keep doing it.
      Kettle’s on.

      Peace always

    365. Smallaxe says:

      CameronB Brodie:

      Good morning Cameron:

      As you say in your own way.Time is of the essence.

      Peace Always

    366. Ken500 says:

      @ Nana’s links

      For pities sake. Can no one help ‘Alison’. If it is true. Start a crowd funder. Get Nicola involved – some of the SNP members. Get Alex Salmond on the case. It has to be resolved, Help this person.

      It is the local authorities responsibility. Name and shame them. The Scottish Gov passes down all the money in excess for essential services. The Unionist and green no party spend the money on grotesque, monstrosity projects with absolutely no mandate. Wasting £Million/Billions of public money and not properlyfunding essential services with the money allocated. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. They then lie about it, brief the Press and blame the SNP. Total propaganda. They are a disgrace. Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for independence.

      Nursery funding has not been totally taken up by the Councils. They claim there was not the up take for the provision. Some families decide not to send their children to nursery, The excess funds should be allocated to 1 to 3 primaries, to keep down class sizes which are rising. The councils are not funding them properly with the money provided.

      The Glasgow Labour list MSP asking questions in the Holyrood Parliament. Asking Nicola to resolve a problem with aged personal care caused by Glasgow (Labour members) Health Board and Labour dominated GCC. Total pathetic propaganda. Could he not get up and make a few calls or visits himself to his mates to resolve the problem. That is what he is getting pay for doing nothing. Nicola has enough to do running the country.

      The Labour/Unionist want to spend £Millions/Billions on a trail to Glasgow airport. In times of austerity. Glasgow Airport has the best airport bus service in the world. Every 5 mins. Into the City centre in 20 mins even at busy times. Cost £5? GCC are totally corrupt.

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

    367. Al Dossary says:

      @Clootie, 12:09am

      That decision by Shell to depressurise the field by producing gas instead also destroyed the dynamics for the wells to produce oil. Less pressure in the resovoir reduced the oil production. Of these facts I am sure you are well aware.

      All done because when oil dropped to to $11? (maybe less) a barrel Shell decided that they would make more profit from the gas than the oil.

      Also around the time that the HSE had closed the ENTIRE FIELD due to maintenance issues.

      Every one of the early fields was raped and pillaged in the early days. The greater profits that could have been realised in the longer term were cast aside for a “get it out as quick as the oil will flow”.

      Contrast that to Valhall in the Norwegian sector. After 25 years of production, BP in 2010 installed a new platform with a design life to produce for 40 years more ! The original platform had been deemed as unsafe in syormy seas due to the seabed sinking sevreal metres due to the amount of oil removed from oil bearing chalk. It was one of several platforms that was regularly evacuated in severe storms for safety reasons.

      BP had been sitting on the Clair & Clair Ridge since 1977, unwilling to develop it due to not having the technology. In Norway you have 7 years to develop or you lose the licence!

      BP are playing up their LoSal water injection technology to be deployed on Clair. Such a pity that they were too greedy to properly treat the injection water on Miller and effectively clogged he resovoir with salt deposits firmed by seawater reacting chemically with the resovoir fluids. Marathon did properly treat their water on Brae A which is still producing to this day (or was, I am not sure what has happened since their compressor module went BOOM this year).

      Another taster of the money’s involved – my current employer in 2014 costed the losses due to a particular piece of critical equipment failing in the field. $540 Million US in lost production.

      I am no great fan of the oil majors as you will gather. They all have taken a fortune in profit historically from their respective assets. They deny direct employment to as much as 50% of those directly involved in their operations instead using companies like Amec, Wood Group, Petrofac etc to employ “Core Crew” and have savagely cut spending and conditions for all of those on board their platforms.

      The likes of Wood Group et al employ their workers through shell companies in the channel Islands denying the exchequer a 14% employers NI contribution. T&Cs have been severely eroded since this crash – 25% cuts in salary widespread, 2/3 rotations scrapped to save money forcing the workers to work 3/3. In fog season this will inevitably lead to some being offshore for 4 weeks or more due to weather at a time.

    368. Capella says:

      Great article Al – thanks. Frightening photo of far right fascistic fellows (that’s enough fffs).

      @ Chic McGregor and Thepnr – watched the film Joyeux Noel last night. Brilliant WW1 film and the fact that Scots troops were so central to the story was quite shocking. It brings home how much we are airbrushed out of history normally. Well worth viewing. Thanks for the link.

      http://www.upstreamist.pw/joyeux-noel-2005/

    369. Ken500 says:

      William swanning about in Vietnam campaigning to support wild life. He shots wild life.

      Royals supposed to be impartial. Harry taking part in illegal wars which kill and maim millions of (foreign) innocent people. Complaining about racism. He has fallen for a clone of his brother’s wife? It must run in the family. Imagine a coloured baby. Nice touch. Necessary to be brought up in the Protestant religion. Or will it all fall though. It didn’t work out for poor Diana. ‘Two half pennies short of a shilling’ i.e. Having a Muslim partner. Or a mixed race member of the Royal family. The Royal clones are reported to both like Africa. Great PR exercise.

      Diana tip toeing through the mines with a detector. In a relationship with a wealthy Arab – Muslim? whose father got the £Millions from (illegal) arms dealing. Shooting up Muslims. Owned Harrods and a Scottish shooting estate. Killing wild life. The killing fields of Bush/Brown/Blair/Clinton/Obama administrations.

    370. heedtracker says:

      Good morning fellow Trumpets, in the devolved territory of the greater England zone, soon to be back under the guardianship of SLabour. (some one had to go there)

      Red tory Dr NO! really likes blue tory Massie’s Scotland’s the new Trumpland too, shock.

      In reply to Fergie
      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 2h2 hours ago
      >@cath426 If you don’t get my point, this is worth a read

    371. heedtracker says:

      Should add, not a yoon Dr NO! also twitter posted a nice photo of Massie’s ” YES Scots are Trumpets now” The Times thing, because he isnt paying for a The Times online subscriptiuon either. Its probably his works library copy.

      In reply to Fergie
      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 2h2 hours ago
      >@cath426 If you don’t get my point, this is worth a read

    372. CameronB brodie says:

      @DrScottThinks
      What a silly man you are, now go away or I’ll apply principles of contemporary social science to your cognition of the world. I might even get my solutions out. That would be nice, eh? I’m sure you’d enjoy that. Marvelous.

    373. Ken500 says:

      It is unbelievable could the Tories stoop any lower in corruption. There are suggestions the Tories will give Farague a Knighthood. To try and shut him up. Even more public money for him to embezzle and squander. The guy who destroyed the world economy gets an honour. The corrupt, immoral, unprincipled racist. The biggest, lying, cheating, alcoholic, fascist crook in the West gets a Knighthood.

      He should be put in jail for corruption. Illegally funding a political Party with public money. Laundering £Millions of EU money through Aaron Banks tax evading off-shore Funds. Wiki leaks. Banks the bagman getting a cut. Not being properly investigated by the authorities but protected by WestminsterTory associates. Another criminal appointment.

    374. heraldnomore says:

      Belter from Bateman:

      http://derekbateman.scot/2016/11/16/eu-turn/

      Some of you may have caught it yesterday, but I’m a bit slow on the uptake these days.

    375. Andrew McLean says:

      Heedtracker

      “YES Scots are Trumpets now”?

      Whom is this Dr No thing you speak off, you guys do keep irregular company! Goebbels was a “Dr” too wasn’t he? Has Dr No one ball too? I think we must be told!

      If Scots are indeed trumpets, them we are the horn of the Archangel Gabriel proclaiming the end of Dr NO and his like, “And the Lord said to Gabriel: “‘Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates,”

      See I said we are on the side of the Angels!

    376. CameonB Brodie says:

      @DrScottThinks
      Your ideological nationalism is no match for the organic nationalism of the indi movement. British national ideology is alien to the Scottish environment, it does not originate from, or have Scottish roots. Scottish nationalist ideology is strengthened by it’s intrinsic, internal link to Scottish landscape and culture. This offers hope for truly sustainable approaches to future needs, based on a robust synthesis of Scottish ideology and pragmatic responses to real-world circumstances. Scotland is unlikely to find a sustainable future, without independence.

      Scotland existed before Britain was thought into existence. Would you rather that was not the case? Which of us is the reactionary nationalist?

    377. Macart says:

      Dr Scott Thinks….

      Is that a statement or a question? 😉

    378. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O/T

      UK Citizens could be subject to ETIAS system following Brexit.

      Similar to US ESTA.

      It won’t apply to EU citizens, including those from non-Schengen countries.

      After Brexit, will UK citizens be classed EU citizens?

      If not they’ll and have to enter the Schengen area via ETIAS.

      http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-security/fact-sheets/docs/20161116/factsheet_-_etias_en.pdf

    379. heedtracker says:

      Andrew McLean says:
      17 November, 2016 at 9:45 am
      Heedtracker

      “YES Scots are Trumpets now”?

      Whom is this Dr No thing you speak off, you guys do keep irregular company!

      We do fellow Trumpet, in the Scottish devolved territory of the greater England zone, soon to be back under the rightfully ownership of SLabour.

      No but seriously Dr NO! is the lazy vile separatists news provider. The thinking seps Blair MacDougal. The non thinking seps Duncan Hothersall.

      Dr NO! sivs through the endless SNP bad, vile seps are fascists like Trump, Scots cant run a piss up in a gordon brewery let alone the devolved territory of north England, you’re all buck fast swilling cyber nat scum, news from the BBC Scotland crew’s hourly output and then he distils it all into his vote SLab tweets, for the UK.

      His only failing really, is that he’s one of those ultra yoons who totally detest even the idea of Scottish democracy but pays little or no attention what happens in the greatest and nicest country in the whole wide world, England.

      A mystery wrapped up in an enigma, wrapped up in a union jack.

      Dr No! also holds down a full time job, in between all of the above.

    380. Lenny Hartley says:

      Clootie , cheers mate, long time since I worked in the oil industry!

    381. All our problems will be solved by independence but the only fair chance of getting it is I have said before is to have ref 2 with no postal voting it isa means of fraud and only those who were born and live in Scotland have the right to vote ., no Incomers should be allowed a vote no matter how long they have lived here as Scotland is not their country they are only guests here only the native people of Scotland should have the right to determine the future of their country no one else what could be fairer than that? I have heard that some Incomers voted yes in ind.,1but the figuers at the Time showed 70to80 per cent of them voted no .,.a vote that they never should have had unless these safe guards are put in place we will never win independence

    382. K1 says:

      That’s a recipe for disaster Blair. Someone who has lived in Scotland for 30 plus years may well have brought up their families here, so therefore their children according to your suggestion could vote (in indyref2) but the parents could not?

      The SNP refer to the ‘people of Scotland’ for a very good reason,as it does not convey that it is only those ‘born’ in this country who alone are ‘Scottish’. It was an ‘inclusive’ referendum. Nicola Sturgeon strengthened that inclusiveness agenda at their recent conference.

      Also we’d be playing right into the hands of those who accuse ‘us’ of blood and soil nationalism and it would ‘fit’ the very agenda that this article directly addresses, of those who would ‘tar’ our movement as ostensibly xenophobic. It is not. Precisely because we included ‘everyone’ who ‘lives’ in Scotland in our first indyref. We should not ‘lower’ ourselves or leave ourselves open to ‘post truth’ rhetoric by now ‘turning inwards’ and your suggestion of a ‘Scots born’ ‘only’ ref would do just that.



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