Confused Unionist Of The Morning
Posted on
March 25, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Mere minutes later, due to alert reader Greg Moodie:
In fairness, we must applaud the apology and the deletion of the original tweet. Remarkably few BT campaigners have the dignity to acknowledge when they’ve been caught out. But readers, if using your OWN side’s nasty, cynical, criminally money-wasting policy as a stick to cluelessly attack the other side with doesn’t justify calling someone a “twat”, we can’t imagine what does.
And more to the point, if SNP trams were a reason to vote No, then presumably Unionist ones must be a reason to vote Yes. After all, realising you’ve made a mistake is useless if you don’t learn something from it.
Kudos for the apology.
Its more than the opposition parties have done.
The trams were pushed through as a means to bring down the new SNP Government by attempting to screw up all subsequent budgets.
This episode is one of the strongest reminders showing why they do not have Scotland’s best interests at heart.
I would hope that Alan would take this on board when he is waving his Union Jack and urging us to vote No.
“The trams were pushed through as a means to bring down the new SNP Government by attempting to screw up all subsequent budgets.”
Exactly. And that’s what should be remembers when voting in the #indnyref!
The SNP were wholly against trams
This feels like a good opportunity to point out Westminster spent £789 million building a giant dome and keeping it open for just one year that only 6 million people visited.
Already costing double its original budget, after the thing was SHUT, it cost a further £1 million a month just to maintain.
Remember that for the indyref.
Also I suspect if the SNP had been in control of the trams project (or anyone other than unionists, frankly) it wouldn’t be such a fuck up. I can’t help but thinking the level of uselessness and idiocy among Westminster parties in Scotland is mostly by design, to show, “look how totally stupid, incapable and crap us Scots are…we can’t possibly run anything.”
Course when it comes right on down to it he should have checked first before he opened his mouth, we have a tendency to do that nowadays when, with instant communications it is unnecessary but people think if they don’t get their oar in their chance will be gone.
Thankfully there is one great thing about it, we get to see who the idiots are instantly!
This feels like a good opportunity to point out Westminster spent £783 million building a giant football pitch that was eventually finished 4 years late and cost twice as much as originally planned.
Remember that for the indyref.
Does he mean the first-first space shuttle or the first one that actually could fly in space? Only price I can find is that it cost nearly 2 billion to build Endeavour.
Apparently, it cost 1.5 billion dollars to launch a Shuttle when you included all the development, storage, operation, and little cheesy nibbles for ground control in the costs. Actually launching it was $450 million. I hope it costs less to run the trams… Which don’t even have a connection to the International Space Station any more.
This clearly means the SNP cancelled the part of the service that went into outer space! Remember that for #indyref.
What about the Olympic Stadium that we will now be paying for again (as far as I could make out) to make it suitable for a London football club
I wasn’t paying attention so may have got it wrong, but that’s how it came over Someone will know the facts of the matter
Westminster spent many lives and a vast amount of treasure on an illegal war in Iraq. Remember that for #indyref
Under the union, high speed trains will only go as far as Manchester. Remember that for #indyref.
This game could go on and on…
I agree that using the term ‘twat’ wasn’t called for. It’s such a general term and can be used to describe a host of failings.
F****** D*** S***** C*** A****** would have been more accurate.
But I suppose there wouldn’t have been enough room for that.
Westminster spent £9bn on the Olympics (although we did get a couple of women’s football matches). Remember that for#indyref
Wait, so not even the high-speed trains go to space?
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! That clearly has something to do with the SNP. Does SNP now stand for Space = NO Party?!
I’m always amazed at how many kicks in the knackers Scotland is expected to take from Westminster without complaining.
The billions of pounds that have been squandered or misappropriated over the years is sickening but, as Westminster knows best, we should be grateful for anything we get.
I was pointing this out to a Unionist last week and they came back with, “But I don’t like Alex Salmond”.
It is completely and utterly astonishing that they should tolerate such a situation because of a petty hatred of an individual.
Well done him for correcting his own howling error. Still as you say if it’s supposedly a good enough reason to vote no then equally its an excellent reason to vote YES.
Aye and McConnel and his libdaem pals handed back to westminster one and a half billion pounds because they could not find anything to spend it on, how many of our elderly died of the cold during that time. remember that for the indyref
Seasick Dave says:
“I was pointing this out to a Unionist last week and they came back with, “But I don’t like Alex Salmond”.”
They could alsways hae ane o’ the three craws sittin on the wa’ at Holyrood.
Under the circumstances “twat” seems mild.
Kudos to the guy for apologising. A rare thing
“It is completely and utterly astonishing that they should tolerate such a situation because of a petty hatred of an individual.”
Aye, and I bet if you ask them why they hate AS they’ll have no good reason, only tripe they’ve heard and are clearly repeating that doesn’t stand up to a moment’s scrutiny, like “he’s a dictator”, “he’s a liar”, he’s anti-English etc.
The amount of things people are willing to simply regurgitate without questioning, thinking or looking just a bit closer at is amazing.
Unionists talking nonsense, seem to be quite a common occurrence.
Well Yougov says 50% of Scots would prefer the Scottish Government to be batting for them at the EU, not Westminster ..
Leaves you wondering why ‘Bitter Together’ continue to peddle the negative pap they do … in the face of the growing evidence it is not working …
@Alan Grant
Fair play to him for apologising, but what would make it even better would be if he would give Wings a wee donation for all the information he now has that he didn’t have before that will stop him looking like a twat again.
Remember the poor sailors manning the Belgrano, murdered by another Westminster maniac. They and their dependents, young and old, were ruthlessly, brutally, needlessly sacrificed for Imperial one-up(wo)manship.
There is no way such primitive minds must ever again have dominance over Scotland.
Most unionists are twats.
Remember that for #indyref.
I’ve heard a few such examples being used for NO vote, trams and parly costs in particular. Maybe worth pointing out M74 extension was ahead of schedule and under budget.
The conundrum of course is that if Scotland and the Scots are so useless as the unionists would have us believe then what can be the only reasons why Westminster wants to hold on to it/us so much?
It wouldn’t be oil and gas and whisky revenues and a base for their WMD would it?
Nah, it cannot be oil and gas and whisky revenues because the unionists have told us they are not worth having.
So it must be a base for their WMD…….
I think the guy has got to realise that if you’re going to tell a lie and say “this is a reason to vote against independence”, then you’re going to get called a twat. Fair enough, he didn’t realise it was a lie (hmmm, really…?), but if someone displays twattish behaviour, they shouldn’t be surprised to then be called a twat.
Other things that warrant being called a twat include running a right-wing blog with a big union jack across the top. Oh… http://alangrantuk.com/
Top billing in that nasty Hootsman rag
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-tram-project-cost-same-as-moon-mission-1-2855854
I think the idea of “comment as though the undecided are reading” is a good thing to remember here while the “twat” word is being thrown about, whether for a laugh or not.
Fair do’s to him for apologising but Alan Grant should be aware that for the shambles Labour have wreaked on the city of Edinburgh with the trams crisis they should be in court answering serious questions because by the look of things the Independence referendum will be here before the trams are up and running. His party should never be allowed near the levers of local or national Governement again whether it was intentional or not.
@Ray
Yup, think you’re right there.
” by the look of things the Independence referendum will be here before the trams are up and running”
It would almost be worth crowd-funding and building a time machine purely to be able to go back in time to the beginning of the tram project and proclaim
“I am from the future, and I assure you an independent Scotland will be here before these trams” 🙂
Ha Yes Cath back to the future indeed. That wouldve been the most honest statement to ever come out of Labour! Im sure even Lamont would agree the trams was most definetely not something for nothing.
O/T It’s not only Mr. Grant who’s confused this morning.
I’ve just been handed a leaflet from the Jehovah’s Witnesses with a brand new Jesus on the front. He seems to have had a total makeover, including a trendy designer haircut, highlights, layered fringe, manicured eyebrows and carefully-trimmed beard. Stick a suit on him and you’d think he was headed for the boardroom. He looks as though Gok Wan’s been giving him style advice. What’s that all about? Bring back the old Jesus!
Suppose you asked one hundred people in the street: Who is to blame for the Edinburgh Trams fiasco?
(a) the SNP
(b) the Labour and Conservative parties
(c) Westminster
I have a gloomy feeling I can predict the most popular answer.
Bless him. Young Alan has just hidden his right-wing personal blog behind a password, just as I was about to screenshot this lovely quote:
“I would call this kind of attack an ad hominum attack but I wouldn’t want to be part of the lickspittle, Britnat, educated elite now would I?”
Probably best not to flaunt your “educated elite” credentials at least until you’ve learned to spell “ad hominem”, love… 😀
He’s just a wee laddie. Plenty of time to come to his senses. I voted Labour when I was a student.
Wembley Stadium was five years late and cost Scottish taxpayers their share of (including local transport infrastructure redevelopment and the cost of financing) £1 billion.
Now the UK government at the end of the process has handed it over to a Premier League football club, West Ham who will receive more than £630m of real estate with huge commercial potential and donate only £15m and £2m a year in rent for the privilege.
Perhaps George Foulkes will ask his new ally David Cameron to give Hearts (insert your own team and local politician) a similar hand out but we know which part of the UK is Better Together in the Union.
“I got it wrong”.
That’s thing with these unionists, do they ever get anything right.
They always seem to come across as ill-informed school kids, which you feel should know better.
I just spotted that Alan is a 3rd year PPE student.
What are they teaching them these days?
It is incredible that he can study politics for three years in Edinburgh and not know who was behind the fiasco.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4235-would-an-independent-scotland-be-financially-soundWell worth a read folks,apologies if posted before.
“Wembley Stadium was five years late and cost Scottish taxpayers their share of (including local transport infrastructure redevelopment and the cost of financing) £1 billion.
Now the UK government at the end of the process has handed it over to a Premier League football club, West Ham who will receive more than £630m of real estate with huge commercial potential and donate only £15m and £2m a year in rent for the privilege.”
You may be mixing two stadiums up there.
@Rev
“I would call this kind of attack an ad hominum attack but I wouldn’t want to be part of the lickspittle, Britnat, educated elite now would I?”
It’s not an attack……it’s just “tough love”.
It’s on google cache rev, search for alangrantuk.com+ad+hominum
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4cU3U_9OBGwJ:http://alangrantuk.com/2013/01/07/better-together-rolls-up-their-sleeves-while-yes-scotland-search-the-sofa-for-spare-change/%2Balangrantuk.com+ad+hominum&hl=en&tbas=0&ct=clnk
At least he got his stuff published, which is more than I’m getting with ‘labour hame’, I asked the “admin” to explain a comment he made to a posting of mine he graciously decided to publish for once, he replyed but refuses to publish my reply just so he can have the last word. I would’nt call him a twat but I would call him a chickenshit unionist feartie, but that appears to be the guys style.
Its a shame that labour hame is controlled in such away now, it used to be fun watching Duncan Hothersall twist himself in knots trying to justify his parties decisions. And it was great being able to fully argue your point of view without the censorship by their present moderators.
Just another reason to vote YES.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
“It is incredible that he can study politics for three years in Edinburgh and not know who was behind the fiasco.”
And here’s me thinking he was at Strathclyde under the tutelage of one Prof John Curtice.
@Simon
Did he just make an “ad hominem” attack on Brian Souter in the midst of decrying “ad hominum” attacks on Alastair Darling?
Daily Politics – on a link from Scotland Humza Yousaf did well making some excellent points re indy and not letting himself get talked over. Johann Lamont in the studio arguing with a Welsh tory and a lib dem over the bedroom tax (I didn’t hear her say labour would reverse it) and condemning the SNPEEE with the usual hand gestures and gum gnashing.
Earlier, a couple of southern journalists – praising Alasdair Darling as a great asset to the No campaign and suggesting Alex Salmond is a worried man who knows he’s in trouble :)) Are they really that unaware??
I just noticed that he is not some random “student”.
He is a student doing PPE. This is Politics and Economics, which is the course take by aspiring MPs of the main Westminster parties. For example, six of the Miliband’s first Shadow Cabinet had done PPE.
What happens is do PPE. Then work as a researcher. Then a SPAD. Then suddenly you are on a candidates list for a seat.
Notice at no point is anything we would think of as a proper job involved in that.
Given this, the boy should know better
@Erchie
What does the middle P stand for – Perjuring?
What does the middle P stand for – Perjuring?
Philosophy normally….
I thought the PP was for Piss Poor…
@Elizabeth
“Are they really that unaware??
I concur Elizabeth. I am frequently astonished regarding the level of understanding amongst those that I would assume would know better.
The level of understanding of the referendum is poor in Scotland but in England it is beyond belief. Witness the three media types on Sunday Politicks enthusing about how wonderful Alister Darling is. How astute he was at predicting the crash. Thankfully his reputation north of the border is somewhat less than that. History is full of establishment figures, Charles I being a prime example, who simply just “didn’t get” Scotland. It is their arrogant assumption that Scotland and the Scots are just like little Englanders with their “I’m all right Jack” attitude. Hell mend the lot of them!
The reaslly scary part is that the forcing through of the trams project by the united unionist opposition parties in 2007 seems like just yesterday to me. Indeed, it was barely six years ago.
This ignoramus was perhaps only a 14-year-old schoolboy at the time.
@The Great Baldo
What does the middle P stand for – Perjuring?
Philosophy normally….
But in the case of budding politicians……….?
@Jeannie
“Bring back the old Jesus!”
Isn`t he in Biffy Clyro nowadays?
@Jiggsbro
“Most unionists are twats.”
Hallelujah! 🙂
@Jeannie
Got that yesterday, thought it was a movie poster for “Jesus: The Musical” 🙂
@Yesitis
http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/memorial/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JrbMNBNMksk#!
I think New Jesus is quite like Simon Neil, right enough. And the album is called Biblical? Think I might be getting a sign……to buy a Biffy Clyro album.
I have absolutely no idea why any serious political commentator would talk up Alastair Darling, or his career. He rose through the ranks of both Scottish and British Labour almost without trace. There were, and are no signs of him being an influential thinker, or innovative policy maker, or tactician etc. How many of these political commentators have listened to his speeches or followed his career? Has Darling said absolutely anything memorable or interesting? No, he is the prototype British establishment figure. Darling has relied on his connections to influential Scottish Labour politicians, such as Gordon Brown, to climb up the greasy poll.
Well, Philosophy comes first
Philosophy
Politics
Economics
But I don’t see much “loving of wisdom” in PPE grauates
Is young Mr Grant a student who believes that, like the Unionist Parties he wants to govern us, he should be paying his own tuition fees? Or, is he content to to receive a free education courtesy of an SNP government he would have removed from power?
Free university education – isn’t that something to remember for indyref?
I wouldn’t call the poor wee soul a twat I think a MUPPET is more appropriate.
As others have said he does deserve some kudos for having the courage, normally missing from unionists false claims, to actually admit he made an error.
It is nice to see that he is planning to become a worthwhile addition to the community doing his PPE course, get a real job son then folks might take you a wee bit MORE seriously!
Re Daily politics today: You can watch the indy discussion here ( the comments below it are something else!!) http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=630394296977432
@Jeannie 🙂
Yeah, it`s nice to have a good Scottish band out there, and a successful, seemingly pro-independence one at that.
I`m going to sound really cliched here, but, I kind of like their early stuff more.
Sorry O/T, but with friends like these…bitter together?!
From twitter:
Charles Kennedy
@charles_kennedy
A fantastic turnout for #bettertogether fringe. Great to welcome @TogetherDarling to #ldsconf yfrog.com/j2wvlvlj
6:18pm – 16 Mar 13
They have a belter of a BT poster out this morning on Twitter that states ‘I love Scotland too much to be a nationalist’.
I was never able to find the quality of recreational drugs to achieve such mindbending thinking.
‘I love Scotland too much to be a nationalist’.
What’s that even supposed to mean? You’re not a UK nationalist, perhaps? Or not an American nationalist?
Why do you hate America, Better Together? Why do you hate America?
They have a belter of a BT poster out this morning on Twitter that states ‘I love Scotland too much to be a nationalist’
RIP Albert Camus
The poor wee soul probably doesn’t realise that he has a slave name. The name Grant was foisted apon the inhabitants of Strathspey and Badenoch by the Norman overlord of the La Grande Mob [1066 and all that], who with the help of the local church of Scotland scored out all indigenous names in the baptismal register and from a point in time all registrations were made in the name of Grant. Sorry if this gets under the skin of all the Grants out there, you can check it out in the Parish of Duthil records.
After indy you can find out your real name.
OK, error made as he did not know. But no one should be thinking, SNP cocked-up that project, or I don’t like Salmond, so I will vote no. It’s another case of someone thinking all about SNP, this is a vote for SNP and that SNP will govern for infinity. As they don’t like that idea, opt to side with no. Cannot think along those lines. This may be due to Better Together projecting that sort of nonsense.
@frankieboy
The No campaign are British Nationalists, so I have no idea what their poster is attempting to say. I mean how can someone argue for the Union from a progressive perspective when the NHS is being privatised in England, and the welfare state is being dismantled?
P.S. Has anyone saw the debate on the Daily Politics with Lamont and Humza Yousuf? Some of the comments on Facebook are scary…It is on WoS Twitter page.
@Elizabeth
The comments from some were simply appalling, the others were the usual variety of nay sayer. I wonder how proud of their Westminster affiliation they’ll be when forking out tuition fees for their kids education or wondering in their old age why they should have to pay for transport and prescriptions? Just how proud will they be when news pages start filling with the effects and outcomes of Westminster’s welfare reforms? Or maybe when they’re forced to pay for medical aid it’ll focus the old concentration, but I doubt it. You hope that at least some will see sense before next September.
@Frankieboy
Here you go. That`s fucking hilarious!
https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/259836682340270080/photo/1
@Macart
If the No campaign gets its way and there is a No vote in the referendum, Johann Lamont et al will have to go to their constituents and say that they will have to pay £9,000 a year in tuition fees to go to university (£6,000 if British Labour win the next election and are still supporting the current policy). Given that Lamont’s constituency is Pollok how do you think this will go down? Do they seriously think this will go down well? It is effectively reducing access to university to the well off.
Trams fiasco ? I know people who think the snp spent a fortune building that hollywood thingy whadoyamacallit IT REALLY DOES MAKE THE MIND BOGGLE!!!!
It’s the same as coming out with the nonsensical “I love Justin Bieber too much to be a Bielieber.”
The very point muttley. Do these people actually think that the SG can protect them from what’s coming without independence? When the money is not there,…………. its not there and that’s even if the SNP stay in power. If Labour find themselves back in the big chair, do they think Lamont will protect them????? Jeez she’s already laid her store out on council tax, education, prescriptions, bus travel for the elderly and don’t think she isn’t going to do exactly what she’s told by Miliband. Vote no and we really would be turkeys voting for Christmas. Every benefit these people enjoy under the current SG will disappear like snaw aff a dyke in short order and it will be painful to watch.
# johnlove54 2013-03-25 13:00
to everyone on this site please read this it is absolutely shocking. please copy this and paste it to all other sites and friends.
Michael Meacher MP
By Michael Meacher March 23rd, 2013
It now emerges that Labour did a secret deal with the DWP that the latter would set up an independent inquiry into the use of sanctions against job-seekers in return for Labour supporting emergency legislation – the Jobseekers (Back-to-Work Schemes) Bill which passed all its stages in the Commons last Tuesday – which established the government’s right to re-impose mandatory work activity (forcing someone to work for no pay on pain of otherwise having their benefits withdrawn) which had been struck down in the High Court a few weeks earlier.
Luckily, if you love Scotland far too much to be a Nationalist, you could always join another party, or none at all, and vote YES for a better future that way.
@Macart
I think what we are dealing with here is an element of the Scottish electorate who will blindly follow the edicts from John Smith House. This blind obeisance will be very costly to themselves, and the nation, if there is a No vote. I honestly think they are that blinkered that they would blame the SNP for the introduction of adverse policies as a result of a No vote (I include both Lamont and her acolytes, and the diehard Scottish Labour supporters).
I would not trust any of the unionist parties as far as I could throw them p.s. vote yes
We also need to be aware of the ‘jam tomorrow’ tactics I see emerging – Davidson being the latest.
It’s not just a case of us saying we were promised ‘jam tomorrow’ in 1979 and got nothing: we need to inform the electorate that, even if we do get more ‘revenue’, that will only be as a result of increased taxes and welfare cuts implemented by Westminster. A NO vote means they genuinely will be worse off.
@muttley
Agreed, they can’t see beyond what they’re told to see.
“If the No campaign gets its way and there is a No vote in the referendum, Johann Lamont et al will have to go to their constituents and say that they will have to pay £9,000 a year in tuition fees to go to university”
But the SNP Government will still be the government even if there’s a no vote – why would they introduce tuition fees?
“Who is to blame for the Edinburgh Trams fiasco?”
To be fair, when it was voted through parliament it was projected to cost about £450m and to be finished by 2011.
The fiasco – with vastly increased costs and time to complete – has occurred under the SNP’s stewardship at both national and local (until 2011) level.
@Macart
It is an odd phenomenon. The politicians who have not improved their own constituencies seem to have these people under their spell. There appears to be a unthinking belief in whatever the leadership of Scottish Labour says and does. There seems to be a kind of a Stockholm Syndrome going on, particularly in many Central belt areas. Maybe they just feed off each others’ lack of aspiration and self confidence?
While you are on the subject of the SNP being unjustly blamed for Trams I note that the BBC is using pejorative language directed at the SNP Transport Minister in their website headline article on the efforts by SSE and others to get power restored in Arran and Kintyre, viz:-
“Scottish Transport Minister Keith Brown has defended the efforts to help people affected, but agreed that the situation could be “extremely worrying” for some people.”
The transport minister claimed things should start to improve once engineers and others were able to travel more freely.
It would appear that the use of the words “defended” and “claimed” is meant to convey the impression that somehow Keith Brown is less than trustworthy in dealing with the crisis.
@norsewarrior
But the SNP Government will still be the government even if there’s a no vote – why would they introduce tuition fees?
Yes, but every year we are seeing a reduction in the block grant we are given by Westminster. Do you seriously think we will not have to introduce tuition fees, privatise the NHS (like what is happening in England) in the event of a No vote?
“To be fair, when it was voted through parliament it was projected to cost about £450m”
It’s unwise to lie about things that can be easily Googled:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/tram-scheme-goes-ahead-after-snp-defeat-1.860516
“The trams scheme is priced at around £600m”
I don’t think he should have been called a twat. After all a twat is useful and has given a great deal of pleasure to millions. Much more than can be said for this piece of Unionist detritus. ;0)
Incidentally, poor wee Alan’s locked his Twitter page now too. Isn’t it funny how quickly Unionist blogs and Twitter accounts shrivel away when you shine a little light on them? What are they ashamed of?
“The trams scheme is priced at around £600m”
I was referring to the projected cost to the Scottish Executive – which was originally £490m – I did say “about” rather than give an exact figure.
The final projected cost under the SNP’s stewardship at national and local (until 2011) level has now increased to over £1bn.
I’ll await an apology for your slur.
The boy actually misinterpreted the comment as I ‘believe’ someone may have suggested that he went to Heriot Watt 🙂
“Do you seriously think we will not have to introduce tuition fees, privatise the NHS (like what is happening in England) in the event of a No vote?”
This is the kind of negative scaremongering that we independence supporters should leave to the unionists – we are better than that.
We need to be convincing people to vote yes by telling them the positives of independence – its many merits and benefits – not by scaremongering about what might happen if we vote no.
@norsewarrior
I was referring to the projected cost to the Scottish Executive – which was originally £490m – I did say “about” rather than give an exact figure.
The final projected cost under the SNP’s stewardship at national and local (until 2011) level has now increased to over £1bn.
I’ll await an apology for your slur.
You will be waiting a long time because you are lying. You call the Scottish Government the Scottish Executive, then you blame the SNP for the trams fiasco when they voted against it. Why are you lying?
Christ Doris is here…. aka Norsewarrior aka Yeah1 aka Hey
Remember me Doris it was I you gave your moniker on the hootsman yonks ago..
@norsewarrior
This is the kind of negative scaremongering that we independence supporters should leave to the unionists – we are better than that.
We need to be convincing people to vote yes by telling them the positives of independence – its many merits and benefits – not by scaremongering about what might happen if we vote no.
I simply do not believe you are an independence supporter. You have called the Scottish Government by the wrong name. You have also blamed the SNP for the trams debacle when they voted against. Your have denied that a No vote has negative consequences for Scotland, particularly when the nation is reliant on a block grant. Why should I believe you are an independence supporter when your posts points to you being a Unionist?
Ad hominum is the least of his worries.
Is not “everyone’s favourite friendly neighbourhood homophobic bigot” ad hominem? And actionable?
He also used the post to put the boot into “Big Eck”, which begs the question of what Alex Mcleish has to do with this?
He can’t spell Barroso – or the past tense of “creep”. As in “it has crept in” vs. “he creeped me out”.
Even includes a little bit of Francophobia for almost the perfect BT rant.
“If anyone’s (sic) knows of a word which means ‘more stupid than stupid could ever possibly be’ please let me know and I’ll use it to describe that level of ‘reasoning’.”
No. Two words. Bitter Together.
“You call the Scottish Government the Scottish Executive”
Er…….they were the Scottish Executive when the projected cost of the trams was originally estimated.
“then you blame the SNP for the trams fiasco when they voted against it”
Where did I ‘blame’ them for anything? I’m merely pointing out that its under the SNP’s stewardship at national and local level that the trams budget and projected finishing time has escalated to the level of a fiasco.
“You have called the Scottish Government by the wrong name. You have also blamed the SNP for the trams debacle when they voted against. Your have denied that a No vote has negative consequences for Scotland”
I have done none of those things. See my post at 5.10pm which disproves your first two claims.
And as for the third – NOWHERE have I even suggested that a no vote won’t have negative consequences!
What I am suggesting is that negative scaremongering is not the right tactic for independence supporters to take – we need to be focusing on the POSITIVES of independence – its merits and benefits – NOT on the possible negatives of a no vote!
@norsewarrior
I don’t believe you are an independence supporter as your posts point in another direction. I wish you would just be honest. You mentioned no other party in relation to the trams carry on. Which is strange because they are the ones who voted for it at Holyrood. Stop trying to pass yourself off as an independence supporter.
“I don’t believe you are an independence supporter as your posts point in another direction”
You are aware, aren’t you, that it is perfectly possible to be an independence supporter even if you don’t support or even like the SNP? Have you heard of the Scottish Greens for example?
“You mentioned no other party in relation to the trams carry on”
That’s because no other party was in power at national level during the period in which the trams project escalated to the level of a fiasco.
But you’re right – I did omit to mention the Lib Dems, who were in coalition with the SNP in Edinburgh Council between 2007-2011, so I apologise for that.
“I was referring to the projected cost to the Scottish Executive – which was originally £490m – I did say “about” rather than give an exact figure.
The final projected cost under the SNP’s stewardship at national and local (until 2011) level has now increased to over £1bn.
I’ll await an apology for your slur.”
You’ll be waiting a while, because you can’t have it both ways. Either you count the cost to the Scottish Government, which to the best of my knowledge remains at around £500m, or you count the whole thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11558441
“Despite the problems facing the project, Mr Swinney said he would give it “not a penny more”, adding: “Not even to rescue it. People took a little bit of exception to the strength of the view I took back in June 2007 when I said, ‘do not come knocking on my door for any more money’,” said the finance secretary. He warned: “It’s crystal clear – that was my position then and it remains my position now.””
If Norsewarrior is an Independence supporter then I am sure that he/she can lay out several reasons for voting YES.
Its not difficult.
Folks Doris is a troll DFTT
Good article by Stephen Noon from Yes Scotland:
http://stephennoon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/we-know-date-and-we-know-that-we-can-win.html
It would be so nice to have an honest supporter of the union come here to debate honestly. No such luck. Either we get trolls like Hermione with nothing but foul-mouthed abuse to offer, or sleeket wee liars like this Norsewarrior character who, no matter whether he is or isn’t someone of another name from the Hootsmon comments pages, is certainly presenting a false front.
Some people might even start to think they didn’t have an honest argument to present.
FAO Wings and many others on here, Norsewarrior is a long-term troll from The Scotsman forums who has had endless bans and rebirths under alternative usernames. Many of you will doubtless recognise him…
His raison d’etre is to pose as a supporter of independence – whilst doing nothing other than criticizing the SNP, Salmond etc etc That would be fine of course, if it wasn’t for the fact this is nothing other than just a deeply deeply tedious … day after day, hour after hour… exercise in unionist trolling and baiting.
His whole intention now will be to pollute every single thread on here with the same Scotsman forum tactic. Be aware folks.
@Norsewarrior
I smell shite!
I’m a bit disappointed in Norsewarrior – his trolling was just so obvious and, dare I say it, somewhat half-hearted. In fact, he made very little real effort at all, if truth be told. Trolling’s just not what it used to be. 🙁
O/T, Another reason to vote Yes just popped up at Lossiemouth with the confirmation of what we already new that RAF Marham will get JSF… (If it doesnt get cancelled first!)
Looks like they are paving the way already
Dinnae feed the Norse troll…
@Norsewarrior
Who negotiated, (obviously piss poorly), and signed off the contract ???
http://www.facebook.com/l/qAQGIzhYc/blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/03/24/labour-in-secret-deal-with-iain-duncan-smith-on-benefit-sanctions-michael-meacher-mp/
The man behind the conception of the Edinburgh Trams fiasco is also behind HS2. Ex Labour Councillor Professor David Begg proposed and fought for the trams despite the vast majority in Edinburgh being dead against his plans.
They went through anyway, the council made a mess of it. TIE cocked things up further. Contractors for underground servises mapping plotted less than 30% of what the contractors had to deal with. Shoppers and business’s are still paying the price of this fiasco.
It’s a scandal all right, but one the SNP have had to sort out. At least they seem to be able to do on time on budget if they run a project from the start. As it is they came to this one long after it was over time, way over budget and a third of the size of the original proposals.
http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/waste/2011/06/david-begg-retreats-fantasy-land-hs2.html
He argues that the line represents economic opportunity, while studies suggest the economic benefits from faster trains will be minimal; that the extra capacity on the line will mean falling rail fares, when the business case for the line is premised on rising fares; that it is misleading to quote the cost of the scheme; and that there won’t be large towns getting a worse service, when the Government’s plans show they will. Clearly the proponents of the new high speed line are getting desperate. They know the public are turning against their vanity project and are seeing it for the white elephant it is.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2011/06/highspeed-rail-is-an-opportunity-not-a-waste/
Second, the idea that the scheme will “cost £1,000 per family” is simply not true. This is a massively misleading oversimplification because it doesn’t take
into account the significant financial returns that will be generated from an investment in high-speed rail such as franchise sales, ticket income and property development around newly-built
stations.
‘oversimplification‘ my highlighting – did anyone spot a denial to the cost to the taxpayer? No neither do I
I would be very cautious of any project he was involved in full stop. He doesn’t seem to have a good track record even as a councillor.
@Adrian B
Is that the same David Begg who was proff at RGU Aberdeen ?
Adrian B says:
25 March, 2013 at 3:21 pm
They have a belter of a BT poster out this morning on Twitter that states ‘I love Scotland too much to be a nationalist’
RIP Albert Camus
Still an own goal. Bert’s favourite kind.
Re. Begg. The only thing he has ever been concerned with improving, are his own self interests.
Excuse the mixed metaphors and the suspension of physical relativity, but he jumped on the rapid transit system ‘band wagon’, long after the bus had left the station. The Edinburgh tram system will provide overly expensive technology that was out of date when the project was in the planning stage. In terms of planning, this has to be the largest criminal heist that has ever been foisted on the Scottish tax payer. Though I am sure it is a close run thing with the parliament building. Have you had a look at it inside? Walls cracking, impractical office space and pointless internal courtyards that add nothing but additional maintenance costs. My objection to the building are not due to aesthetic appreciation, or lack off, but its piss-poor functionality.
Rant mode off now, so its safe to come out.
wonder if his radio show takes phonecalls.
On David Begg. He was also instrumental in:
Spending money on widening pavements & installing traffic calming zig zags and bollards all over Edinburgh instead of repairing existing pavements and roads, leading to decrepit state of Edinburgh’s roads.
Closing Princes Street to traffic, thus making George Street & Queen Street grubby and chewed up.
The congestion charge referendum, which was supposed to fund the trams alongside property speculation at the waterfront. I think bitterness towards the population for rejecting congestion charging was a bigger motivator than anyone would admit it to in forcing the trams on us.
What’s that smell?
” we need to be focusing on the POSITIVES of independence – its merits and benefits – NOT on the possible negatives of a no vote!”
OK, one of the many, many positives of independence is that the Scottish government we elect will have full control over all Scotland’s resources and taxes and will be able to budget on these, as well as to borrow if necessary. Hence we will no longer be subject to a budget decided by Westminster which has been being cut in previous years and is due to be cut far more over the next few years. It will also be cut far more as services down south are privatised because it’s funded by the Barnett formula which is based on public sector spending in England, rather than on need here, or on what resources and taxes we put into the UK.
It would be a very positive step for Scotland to move from all our taxes and resources being sent to London and our public services funded by this kind of block grant, into a normal, modern, sensible way of doing things, where our own government take responsibility for tax, spend and resource management.
Happy?
Reminds me of the old ‘I strongly support independence but I’m not going to vote for it because I don’t like Alex Salmond’ chestnut.
@muttley
Must admit to the phenomenons existence, but can’t pretend to understand it. Having been non party political for most of my adult life I’ve always been somewhat leery of the party first, last and always mindset. I voted for people based on my personal experience and local knowledge of the individual and their specific policies. I suppose this natural suspicion has proved quite useful when looking at political agendas on a national level and has allowed (on my part and I can only speek for myself) me to look a bit more objectively at the evidence when presented. Who has achieved what and how much good or ill has it done.
@ Baheid:
“Is that the same David Begg who was proff at RGU Aberdeen?”
I think he was, but that was a long time ago. You could say he has been on the gravy train ever since.
@CameronB
Wanted to replyAye, thought it would be.
You beat me to it with your other post, Re. Begg. The only thing he has ever been concerned with improving, are his own self interests.
Wanted to reply to Adrian B but wasn’t certain it was the same D Begg.
Sorry, I haven’t read all the contributions.
However, I’m a big fan of trams. It’s an old city thing, a good way to get around in a crowded city. My brother lived in Lisbon and trams were the best way to get around to visit museums or gardens or anything in central Lisbon.
I loved the sound of tram wheels screeching on rails, and catching a tram to work when I lived within the tram network in Helsinki. 3T to work (T=Työ=work) and 3B home (B=Baila=party). The 3’s took a slightly confusing 8-shaped route through the city centre and several inner city suburbs in opposite directions so you had to have a mnemonic. They’ve since changed the 3 T/B’s 8-shaped route and made it even more confusing, so that even lifelong Helsinkians are getting lost 😀 There’s a petition to reinstate the old 3T/B routes. Then there’s the 7 A/B (another confusing, 8-shaped, opposite direction thingy), and another 6 or 7 different tram lines… If you live within 3-5 km of Helsinki city centre, trams are the easiest, fastest, most convenient way to get around. Cars and buses get stuck in traffic, trams don’t.
Turku and Tampere used to have trams as well. They got rid of their tram systems in the 1960s, 1970s, and are now regretting, and thinking of rebuilding them. Helsinki never got rid of the trams and has added to the existing system. Ha-ha! Look who was smart back then!;-D
I’m sure once the system is up and running (and hopefully expanded), Edinburghians will grow to like their trams. Once they get over the cack-handed manner Labour SG and Labour Edinburgh City Council mismanaged the project. Only now that un-Labour governments and councils are managing the project, it’s delivering.
For norsewarrior et al
Edinburgh Tram scheme was Labour’s project and the Board of TIE supervising the construction from 2007 had 4 councillors on it.. two Labour , one Tory and onne Lib Dem. The original cost was nowhere near £500 million
September 2002: Donald Anderson and his Labour city council unveil their £1.5 billion transport vision for the Edinburgh, including three proposed tram routes, with part funding coming from congestion charging for city access.
March 2003: Jack McConnell’s transport minister, one Iain Gray, awards £375m from the Scottish Executive’s integrated transport fund to said city council to build tram lines to serve the north and west, the first to be running by 2009. Mr Gray says the money would pay for “at least” the North Edinburgh Loop. The council believes this will also pay for a line from Haymarket to the airport.
October 2004: Line 1 (North Edinburgh Loop), originally costed at £190m, is revised in estimate to £243m; Line 2 (West Edinburgh Link) also balloons; from £165m to £230m.
February 2005: The failed congestion charging referendum means a third tram line to the South-East is shelved “indefinitely” for lack of funds. The public wanted something palpable before they were prepared to pay for it. This was a Rubicon that should not have been crossed. But both Labour / Lib Dem executive and Edinburgh Labour council waded across.
September 2005: Within a week of the cost of two lines increasing again—by £66m to £539m, the Edinburgh Evening News reports £175m more to bring the total cost to £714m, plus a six-month delay so completion is now summer 2010.
January 2006: The Labour council realises it can’t afford both lines (see March 2003) and shelves a major part of Line 1 (Leith via Granton to near Haymarket). Now really an airport bus replacement, this second chance to pull the plug on a stunted system of one line is missed.
And last chance was missed when all the other political parties voted against the SNP government in 2007.
😀 ‘speek’????
Let that be a lesson. Never type, eat a hobnob and watch telly at the same time. 😀
One fingered typing a speciality.
Re – the ‘I love Scotland too much to be a nationalist’ tweet, reminds of the famous Vietnam war quote about the Mekong Delta city of Ben Tre :-
‘It became necessary to destroy the town [in order] to save it’………
Re. HS2. It must be obvious to all but the blind, that commitment to this project will only add to the pressures expanding the current north/south divide. But that doesn’t seam to matter, as is clear in this article by Toby Cuthbertson, of international transport analysts Leigh Fischer.
Toby is an international transport economist with over 25 years international experience in rail, aviation, and toll roads, covering market analysis, scheme appraisal, demand/revenue modelling and fares strategy. But he doesn’t appear to have a clue about the socio-political ramifications of his consideration. The article about PF2 – The Son of PFI, by Tracey Lee, is also worth a read.
http://www.leighfisher-globaloutlook.com/feature/Surface-Transport/Europe/1600/High-Speed-2–Let39s-have-some-joined-up-thinking
@ lumilumi
I’m all for public transport and a bit of romance, but we’ve been sold a donkey. A dead one at that. I might be wrong, but I think the roll stock is second hand. It is definately not the most up-to-date technology.
@Baheid,
Sorry for late reply – I felt the need to eat.
“Is that the same David Begg who was proff at RGU Aberdeen?”
Yes according to the article below from 1st March 2002:
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/167504.article
He lectured in economics at Napier University for 16 years before gaining a chair in 1997 at Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen, where he is director of the Centre for Transport Policy. He was also a Labour councillor and convenor of transport in Edinburgh, where he pioneered a range of hardline policies, from giving buses priority on key “greenway” routes to bringing in private traffic wardens, dubbed the “Blue Meanies”.
His sticky fingers pop up all over the place – here is a single link summary:
http://civicenterpriseuk.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/professor-david-begg.pdf
Don’t forget this mad capped idea from a few years ago, he might yet roll it out again ….
The “spy in the sky” proposal, recommended this week by the Commission for Integrated Transport that Professor Begg has headed since 1999, could, he claims, halve congestion within a decade. Yet the scheme would require that millions of vehicle movements were monitored and that monthly toll bills were sent to motorists nationwide.
Linda’s back
Your post brings it all back to me…
Re your last sentence could you just list for everyone the names of the MSPs who voted FOR the trams. I think the Tories voted for, but with a cap of £500 million. Labour of course were set on their vanity project without having to find the money for it.
Seanair says:
25 March, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Linda’s backYour post brings it all back to me…
Sadly it does for me as well. Did they not buy the trams at an earlier point and there is now a couple of dozen or so more than the smaller tram system can cope with, I think they were unable to sell these so they are just sitting at the depot depreciating.
@Adrian B
Cheers.
Remember him being a msm luvie at that time.
Don’t think RGU were very happy when he left…….offered a position as some king of advisor/non exec in London……RGU had to re-paint front doors because of speed Begg went through them. 🙂
O/T but I’ve just noticed that Better Together appointed a new Director on the 11th of Feb this year. A Philip John Anderton. I can’t find any political links to his name so he looks like the first director on Better Together not to come directly from a political party.
The other directors being Jacqueline Marie Baillie, Richard James Baker, Alistair Maclean Darling, Mr Craig Thomas Alexander Harrow and David William McLetchie.
I think this is the man.
http://www.arabiansponsorship.com/speakers/PhilipJohnAnderton.html
Does anyone know his politics/anything about him?
Re. Begg. More evidence the man doesn’t really know what he is talking about, despite formerly being Managing Director of Lothian buses and latterly passing himself off as a transport analyst.
http://beleben.wordpress.com/tag/david-begg/
http://davidsberry.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/public-disservice/
O/T got this on twitter, only 3 mins, worth a look
http://www.celsias.com/article/why-do-we-consider-banks-be-holy-churchesicelands/
“I think this is the man.
http://www.arabiansponsorship.com/speakers/PhilipJohnAnderton.html
Does anyone know his politics/anything about him?”
He wrote one of the Scotsman’s four No essays.
Tearlach,
“Re – the ‘I love Scotland too much to be a nationalist’ tweet, reminds of the famous Vietnam war quote about the Mekong Delta city of Ben Tre :-
‘It became necessary to destroy the town [in order] to save it’………”
That is what they are doing.
Best comment in a long time…..
Marvelous stuff again from Kevin McKenna in the Observer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/24/scotland-independence-labour?INTCMP=SRCH
“In one respect, 18 months is a very long time for a political campaign. For surely there is a limit on how long otherwise proud Scots, night after night, can stomach their own narrative: that Scotland is too wee to go it alone; that we can’t make our economy work; that we must have a babysitter sometimes; that at other times we must be back before midnight.
Months of telling people that, unlike Ireland, Denmark and Luxembourg Scotland is simply not strong enough, may exact a toll on Better Together volunteers well before it takes a toll on the voters.”
By the way, Dublin has a very successful tramway system that connects suburbs with the urb. It is being extended and appears to be generally acclaimed rather that castigated.
Maybe Edinburgh should have a chat with them?
@Doug the Dug
I just don’t get it. If I were David Cameron, intent on saving the Union at all costs, would I not be hoping for a better team than one led by Jacqui Baillie, Richard Baker and David McLetchie. Something seems seriously wrong with this.
Douglas Clark
But Dublin is a city in a country that believes in itself
He wrote one of the Scotsman’s four No essays.
I don’t read the Scotsman print or online but I’ll have to have a read of that.
Shouldn’t we be producing copy that says “Would I Lie to You?” with a big lie on it and its rebuttal.
Och!
My point about the trams was completely lost because of all you guys chasing some Unionist or another.
Anyway, trams are about moving commuters quickly and safely. They are not about trendy ‘airport links’. Especially when the other terminus is nowhere special.
It would have made a lot more sense to extend towards Leith than towards Turnhouse. I travelled in on the train from Glasgow recently and the positioning of the ‘stops’ for the trams on the way in from the airport are frankly not that convenient. They are, after all on the North side of the main Glasgow to Edinburgh railway line and the houses are to the South. It is almost as if it is designed to fail.
Sure, it would be a pleasant stroll on a summers day, but in winter?
Mr. Alan Grant. Henceforth, from this day forward, to be known as Twatman.
But just who is Throbbin’, the Boy Blunder?
Tune into your sets folks for another enthralling episode of Twatman and Throbbin’ when the story line will be, Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire.
I was speaking to 3 of my colleagues today, and once again, it turned to Independence. Shockingly, 2 of them actually blamed the Edinburgh Trams fiasco on the SNP. Even when I wholeheartedly pointed out that it was the Unionist Parties that sanctioned it, they refused to believe it. They completely blame the SNP.
I asked them what is so good about the Union, and they then pointed out what was so great about Independence. Again and again, I tried to point things out, and they just plain flat refused them.
Even huge mistakes that the Union had made even recently, for example, giving the Olympic stadium to West Ham United, and once again we will foot a bill of £175 million. Still, they shook their heads, and said that the Olympics had been worth it.
They then refused to believe that the UK Government is flatly refusing to talk to the SNP, but that it is the SNP who are refusing to tell the Scottish People of their plans, and that it is the SNP who are hiding. I then pointed out that Darling had told us nothing at all, and won’t give us anything until after the Referendum. Still headshakes.
When I said that Salmond is demanding a showdown with Cameron …I was told by the three of them that apparently …Salmond is bricking himself from that meeting on Live TV too !!!
I rolled about on the floor in laughter on that one, and quietly told them, that Cameron will be breakfast, lunch and tea to Salmond. As Bendy Wendy said …bring it on!
But overall …they just plain refuse to see the truth. I think it is getting to a stage where the SNP really need to start drip, drip, drip the information, rather than do it all at one time. The SNP really do need a newspaper to start backing the cause, because there are too many people who are believing the media, even though the lies are so pretty blatant. Even after all the crap that Westminster have done in the last 5 years from backing the Bankers to the Bedroom Tax, they just can’t see it.
After talking with 3 die-hard Unionists today …I now see that some folk will never believe the truth, no matter if it smacked them hard in the face. I just hope that if they lose the referendum, that they won’t be in a blind fury or bitter. However, I do wonder….
@ douglas clark
I don’t care about some poor, confused unionist punter, I’m after Begg. He influences policy (local and national), and is up to his neck in Edinburgh’s fiasco. Perhaps I’m taking things too far, but I’d fancy a public inquiry once we are independent.
The trams was always going to be a disaster, imagine thinking that you could dig up a city as old as Edinburgh, and not find things you should not be finding. i would hate to think how much cash has gone on re routing services that no one knew were there. Bet you it’s mind boggling amounts.
JLT – It’s still early days. Keep the positive message going and over time those in doubt may eventually change their view. People need time to come to their own conclusions on what some find to be a big, scary decision. There is no real case for staying in the Union and that message is getting out there.
@DougtheDug
Fireworks Phil Anderton. Was at SRU and Hearts FC for a short time. Very cocky and gave the appearance of being £.
I really hope those many Scots who are tempted by independence but who don’t support or like the SNP don’t visit this site, given the obnoxious abuse I received earlier for daring to criticise the party.
Although the SNP fantics give lip service to the notion that independence is for everyone regardless of the party they support, the reality is revealed whenever anyone dares to criticise their beloved party – they are immediately denounced as a ‘troll’ and a ‘sleekit wee liar’ and not a real independence supporter.
You need to realise that if we are to have any chance of winning the referendum then the support of SNP supporters will NOT be enough – we need to attract the support of many people who don’t support the SNP – and abusing them for daring to disagree with the party clearly won’t encourage them to vote yes.
O/T, the UK continues to plan for Scotland’s ‘separation’.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-21931535
Could Scottish-based armed forces make use of the trams in military emergency if we remain in the UK? That’s about all we’ll be left with. And WMD of course.
@Norsewarrior
Yup, I definitely smell shite
It’s merely that your reputation precedes you Norsewarrior.
“It’s still early days. Keep the positive message going and over time those in doubt may eventually change their view”
But that’s the point, it isn’t ‘early days’ – quite the opposite in fact. The history of referendums tells us that the status quo vote always grows the closer they get – so we really need to be leading right now, or at least building up momentum towards a win.
The only way we can do that is if the SNP release the white paper as soon as possible – November will probably be too late.
Give it credit, it’s better-quality shite than the first lot. If it hadn’t messed up the place with the first lot, it might almost have been credible.
I said almost, OK?
Open goal here, Norse Warrior; name your three best reasons for voting Yes.
@ norse warrior seriously doubt that the bulk of people who need persuading about the merits of independence . I recon most folk are too lazy to trawl about the Internet finding out about politics. I would go as far as to say that this is what better together are counting on.
Danger, low flying pies. Krustie!
“Norse Warrior; name your three best reasons for voting Yes.”
Certainly.
1. Scotland will be able to decide what’s best for Scotland
2. We will have a better chance of getting a left wing government
3. We won’t be dragged into any more illegal wars
What are your three best reasons for voting yes?
Norsewarrior
To be honest, you have pretty much nailed it for me, with No. 1 being the daddy.
Cheers!
“To be honest, you have pretty much nailed it for me, with No. 1 being the daddy. Cheers!”
No problem, not too sure what you were meaning about an ‘open goal’ though?
@norsewarrior
We know you are from the Scotsman forum and are a Unionist troll.
No problem, not too sure what you were meaning about an ‘open goal’ though?
The one he showed you, I think…. 😉
Norsewarrior says Status Quo support always grows neaer the date.
In Quebec referendum on 30 October 1995 the NO camp had a 20% lead at start of campaign (sounds familiar) but actual vote was YES 49.4% NO 50.6% so it is all to play for.
The “No” side that opposed sovereignty in Quebec’s 1995 referendum illegally spent more than half a million dollars on its campaign, according to a report on the former Montreal-based lobby group Option Canada.
The report, penned by retired Quebec judge Bernard Grenier, blames a handful of federalists working for the “No” camp for misspending referendum campaign dollars and violating provincial election laws.
Grenier concludes that Option Canada and the Canadian Unity Council (CUC) illegally spent about $539,000 originating from the federal Heritage Department during the campaign, and a total of $11 million before and during the campaign to prop up the “No” side before it eked out a narrow victory in October 1995.
“We know you are from the Scotsman forum and are a Unionist troll”
Look I’m happy to admit I’m no fan of the SNP, for a number of reasons, but that certainly doesn’t make me a ‘unionist troll’, anymore than it makes Patrick Harvie or Margo MacDonald, who share many of my criticisms of the SNP and their approach to, and version of, independence, ‘unionist trolls’.
The reality is that the version of independence I favour is far more full and real than the SNP’s watered down, diluted version – I’d suggest that makes me the opposite of a ‘unionist’.
Norsewarrior
For a Yes man you spend a disordinate amount of time faffing around crying ‘foul’ so I thought that I would put the ball on the penalty spot for you.
Hopefully, you will focus on positive reasons for voting Yes and we will all be the better for it 🙂
“The one he showed you, I think….”
You don’t ‘show’ an open goal, you score one.
OMG. Unionist trolls do my nut in.
“Hopefully, you will focus on positive reasons for voting Yes and we will all be the better for it”
That’s exactly what I was suggesting that others focus on earlier, when I stated that “We need to be convincing people to vote yes by telling them the positives of independence”.
For this I got accused of not being a real independence supporter by ‘muttley’ and abused as a ‘sleekit wee liar’ by another poster – both without reason or evidence.
@Norsewarrior,
Acting like a bull in a china shop is one way of getting attention. Are we short on manners or just in a hurry to get back out of the door?
You don’t ‘show’ an open goal, you score one.
FFS.
Look I don’t know why you are acting in manner you are. Why you are pretending to support independence on the internet is something only you can answer.
“OMG. Unionist trolls do my nut in.”
Trolls on both sides do my nut in, there is no need for it.
People should just openly argue in favour of their respective camps without any trolling or fakery or abuse or attacks.
Mr Anderton is all about brand management and marketing looking his linked-in page. Hopefully he’s charging BT like a bandit 🙂
Are you perhaps being a little one sided there, Norsewarrior? You can also ‘leave’ an open goal. 🙂
“Why you are pretending to support independence on the internet is something only you can answer.”
And I don’t know why you are accusing me of ‘pretending’ to support independence despite providing absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up you accusation.
Is it honestly just because I criticised the SNP earlier? You are exactly the type of SNP fanatic that is damaging our chances of getting independence – we need to be convincing non-SNP supporters that independence is for them even if they don’t support the party – NOT abusing and attacking anyone who dares to criticise the SNP.
Night y’all.
Congratulations to the Rev on reaching his total and a wee toast to us all for taking a positive step towards our dreams.
Onwards, ever onwards…
Tellen1, for sure.
Alex mci says:
25 March, 2013 at 10:21 pm
The trams was always going to be a disaster, imagine thinking that you could dig up a city as old as Edinburgh, and not find things you should not be finding. i would hate to think how much cash has gone on re routing services that no one knew were there. Bet you it’s mind boggling amounts.
A wee map for you:
http://www.mapstop.co.uk/product2837_Rome-Transport-Map–Italy–Tram–Metro-and-Suburban-Map.aspx
And a wee picture of trams strutting their stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tram_Roma%3F.jpg
Don’t tell me that Edinburgh has more catacombs and stuff than Rome!
That’s Rome! A very, very old city. And they can do it.
The problem with the Edinburgh Trams wasn’t that it wasn’t a good idea, it is was that it has been grossly mis-managed.
The joke in all of this is that people get electrified about expenditure in Edinburgh and don’t give a monkeys about expenditure in London. Quite why that is is beyond me. Even Croydon has trams!
Is this the same troll who infested the Scotsman under various spellings of “Independencen0w”?
Easy to catch them. Just mention Orkney and Shetland and wait for the response.
Further signs are –
Asking all and sundry to apologise to them.
Repeating the same question many times in the same thread despite it being answered previously.
Hatred of all SNP policy.
Takes me back it does.
and lastly, one I forgot about but has now come out the hat —-
” SNP’s watered down, diluted version”
and also —-
“despite providing absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up you accusation”
yup it is definitely the same troll.
Rev, its your forum, but if you don’t want 1000 posts on each story with 775 from Doris then you might want to take action.
“Just mention Orkney and Shetland and wait for the response.”
What about them? As someone who believes in self determination for all peoples I’d obviously back them if they wanted to leave Scotland, but I wouldn’t want them to go.
“Hatred of all SNP policy”
I like the SNP’s climate change, same sex marriage and referendum policies, so it can’t be me you’re referring to.
“and lastly, one I forgot about but has now come out the hat —-
“SNP’s watered down, diluted version”
Yes, I want full independence with the people as sovereign, without the monarchy and without us having any sort of currency union with the UK. Quite how that makes me a ‘unionist’ or not a ‘real’ independence supporter I have honestly no idea.
“then you might want to take action.”
It’s SNP fanatics like this individual who are damaging our chances of independence.
Wanting to suppress and silence the views of anyone critical of the SNP is quite obviously not the way to win the referendum – we need to be convincing people that they can still support independence even if they don’t support the SNP – your type of attitude is destroying our chances of doing that.
@norsewarrior
And I don’t know why you are accusing me of ‘pretending’ to support independence despite providing absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up you accusation.
Is it honestly just because I criticised the SNP earlier? You are exactly the type of SNP fanatic that is damaging our chances of getting independence – we need to be convincing non-SNP supporters that independence is for them even if they don’t support the party – NOT abusing and attacking anyone who dares to criticise the SNP.
There is no abuse here. No, it is not your criticism of the SNP. It is the fact that 1) It was demonstrable untrue what you were saying. 2) Other posters pointed to your habit of pretending to support independence while being a Unionist on the Scotsman forum. 3) When you have been caught out you then try and create discord.
To be honest I have more respect for Unionists who don’t pretend otherwise.
what a prick…
is it possible for a trollometer to register somewhere below zero out of ten, cos thats where mine is pointing.
I would like no currency union with England post-independence. (You forgot there will be no such entity as “the UK” then.) Practicalities are another matter. It is not in Scotland’s interests to leave Sterling stranded without the backing of Scotland’s assets. It is also not in Scotland’s long-term interests to have a Scottish currency harden to the extent that a dedicated Scottish currency is likely to harden.
So I put up with it. Ireland put up with it for 50 years (for different reasons), so I expect we can too.
They’re bloody worse than a virus. Don’t feed them.
Go up against its arguments, in the full knowledge of what it’s trying to do.
“There is no abuse here”
Apart from the poster earlier who called me a ‘sleekit wee liar’ for no reason whatsoever.
“It was demonstrable untrue what you were saying”
So the SNP haven’t been the government since 2007 and weren’t part of the Edinburgh Council coalition between 2007-11, because THAT was what I was saying.
“Other posters pointed to your habit of pretending to support independence while being a Unionist on the Scotsman forum”
Yes, other SNP fanatics who think that anyone who criticises the party is automatically a ‘unionist’ and who utterly failed to provide any evidence to back up their claims about me apart from the fact that I was critical of the SNP.
“When you have been caught out you then try and create discord”
The only individual I can see creating discord here is YOU – by making up completely false and unsubstantiated accusations that you’ve completely failed to prove.
Muttley79: “There is no abuse here”
McHaggis: “What a prick”
You were saying?
SNP fanatics like this ‘mchaggis’ are damaging our chances of getting independence.
OMG!!!!
Its back!! the word “Utterly”…
and all the other regular and very clear signs Doris has infested WoS.
I can Guarantee next it will be – “Who is this Doris you keep referring to”?
Just listened to Jeane Freeman from YES Scotland on Newsnicht, she was brilliant.
and you know what Doris, it felt marvelous being able to call you a prick. I will expand though – a unionist trolling prick.
Look you have been caught out as a Unionist troll. If you had any honesty you would admit it. The SNP voted against the trams in the Scottish Parliament. The other parties voted for it, and that is why it got the go ahead. The fact that what you say is wrong does not seem to bother you at all. I think that is telling.
@Bill C What did she say on Newsnight?
The other parties specifically pushed through the trams White Elephant in order to force the Scottish government to spend money on them, so that would be money they wouldn’t have to spend on things people actually wanted, like dualling the A9.
“a unionist trolling prick.”
The odious abusive views of this individual are exactly what makes those of us independence supporters who aren’t SNP fanatics despair.
The likes of this individual are damaging our chances of getting independence every single time they attack and abuse those who don’t support the SNP or are critical of the party – the very people we need to convince to vote yes if we’re to have any chance of winning.
And the very worst thing is they don’t even seem to care about damaging independence – the most important thing to them is the SNP.
Do you know how I judge whether a person is trolling? It’s when they monopolise threads.
“Look you have been caught out as a Unionist troll. If you had any honesty you would admit it”
If I had indeed been caught out as anything I would happily admit it, but the simple truth is that neither you nor anyone else has ever proved any of your lying accusations about me.
“The fact that what you say is wrong does not seem to bother you at all”
Let me get this straight, you’re claiming that I was wrong when I stated that the SNP have been in government since 2007 and were in a coalition in Edinburgh Council between 2007 and 2011? Which part of that is ‘wrong’ exactly?
Confused Unionist posting to-morrow is Labour’s think tank CPPR coming out to say that Scotland’s oil won’t be worth very much over the next few years.
muttley mate… it is mentally ill and cannot be reasoned with. It will get not a single response more from me under any circumstances and I just hope the Rev can deal with it. It will return again and again under revised names but will be instantly recognisable. Like I said, it falls off the bottom of the scale of trolling.
Srsly, is there not some course you can take to vary your writing style a bit?
Perhaps not a trollometer, but what about electing a judging panel to award points for style and artistry, as well as technical competence? We could even draw up a league table, though I’m not sure how to accommodate the home and away aspect of league fixtures.
P.S. I have no idea who Norsewarrior is and can not fault his claim for free speech. However, all this accusation tennis gets pretty boring after a while, as does trolling.
McHaggis: “it is mentally ill”, “unionist trolling prick”
As I said earlier, I really hope the people we need to convince to vote yes if we want to win the referendum – those who aren’t SNP supporters – don’t chance across this blog while looking for information on the referendum.
The odious hate-filled attacks from this individual against anyone who doesn’t worship the SNP with unquestioning devotion are enough to put off anyone who is thinking of voting yes but who is worried about the SNP dominating the independence cause.
Norsewarrior
I would remind you again on trams. Edinburgh Tram scheme was Labour’s project and the Board of TIE supervising the construction on behalf of the council was set up by Labour and from 2007 had 4 councillors on it.. two Labour , one Tory and one Lib Dem. The SNP refused to sit on the board as they remained opposed to this project.
Also TIE’s contract with the contractors which went badly wrong was drawn up under Labour before SNP were part of Edinburgh administration in 2007.
BBC News in shock horror.
Watching BBC News: “The Editors” on BBC1
An article by BBC Economics Editor Stephanie Flanders “Could London be damaging Britain?”
This is gold-dust an unintentional boost to independence by the BBC
Hope this is on I player or similar.
Rev. Please can you put up a link or something from somewhere (I am no teckie) Everyone should watch this.
Norsewarrior,
Clearly not fitting in by winding people up now are you? Perhaps its time you left quietly.
Ah, I see what’s happening here. Best not to deal with this individual. You’re giving him a reason to post a reply to your comment and that reply will be seen by him as an opportunity to say something against the SNP which he hopes other people will read and if he can make them doubt the SNP, he thinks they won’t vote for independence. Bless. Best not to play.
Good luck with that….
Our old friends in the CPPR are saying that the Scottish Government has got it wrong, OIL and Gas UK have got it wrong and dozens of oil companies all over the North East of Scotland (oil producers and service companies) have got it wrong. There will be no second oil boom in Scotland? The CPPR is a manned by Labour supporting so called economists like Jo Armstrong and John McLaren. McLaren’s figures have already been questioned by Professor Alex Kemp from the University of Aberdeen. Professor Kemp is internationally recognised as an expert on North Sea oil.
While I am on, can I make an appeal? Recently on this excellent site, we seem to have been invaded by mischief makers who seek to draw, drain and divert the energy of the many dozens of good people who post on here. Please ignore the so called trolls, our energies should be confined to countering the lies, distortions and smears of the unionists e.g. the CPPR.
Interesting that things went a bit pear shaped, on a thread following a post taking a critical view of a confused unionist wannabe. Or was it rather that we had taken a look at the issue, and decided to pin the tail on the donkey that is Begg, the Labour council and TIE.
Good post Linda’s back @ 11.35pm.
I think it’s best to ignore the posts that are quite obviously acting as a decoy in order to detract from the real issues being discussed. And yes, the message for Independence is getting through to the undecideds, so it’s just a matter of making sure the facts get out there in any way poss. I talked to someone today ) mostly a ‘no’ person) who had no idea of this site or WOS, and they were delighted to hear of these websites so as to get a much more balanced perspective. Having only had the usual biased news to try to work out just what kind of choice and decision it is, that we are making with regard to this hugely important and crucial vote for the future of Scotland and her people. There is much work to do in getting the facts and the truth out there.
I have to say I didn’t think there would be quite such a negative and imbalanced fight from the better together lot, it leaves them looking pretty desperate, but, they will I fear try anything and everything so it is up to us to counter their constant, daily scare stories directed at the good people of Scotland, with the positive case for a forward looking Scotland, but with a determined stamina that will not be beaten down by them.
YES to Independence in 2014, for a future that includes all, not just the rich few, especaially in London.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/6457-cppr-claims-on-oil-estimates-challenged-by-leading-academic
http://www.scottishtimes.com/scottish_independence_oil_public_spending
CPPR _ Centre for Public Policy for Regions – sums up the attitude of this Labour Think Tank
I think the bitter attitude is coming over really badly. Maybe bitter is the wrong word. The gleeful triumphalism with which they smugly trumpet every real or contrived obstacle they found to put in the way of independence.
If they had started with the attitude, look we realise why you want to be independent and it’s an understandable ambition, but we’ve looked at the options and sorry to say it isn’t really a good choice right now, it might have gone down better. But this yah boo sucks we can’t afford it we’re too wee and too poor YIPPEEE just exposes the real agenda.
And if we fall for it we really are too stupid.
@Adrian “CPPR _ Centre for Public Policy for Regions – sums up the attitude of this Labour Think Tank”.
That’s exactly what they are and their figures have been totally rubbished by experts who actually work in the oil and gas industry. Nothing more than unionist propaganda.
It’ll still be all over the front pages as if it’s gospel truth though, with the Yes campaign and the SNP made to look as if they’re just making stuff up to refute it.
Rise in air passenger duty Labour abstain again
Well done Rev Stu and the readers of this site as I see that the running total is now over £30,000 and you yet have to add in the offline payments.
I think, Marcia, that RevStu put in sufficient of the off-system payments to make the target, just after midnight. Either that, or some anonymous moneybags got very generous indeed!
Anyway, done and dusted.
The oil companies better get a refund from Gideon Osbourne for all those block licences he mis-sold them. Or just maybe the oil companies actually know what there doing and politically funded think tanks are just being paid to come up with the appropriate answer when called for.
These think tanks, quangos, and surplus government departments that were set up by New Nu Neu Labour between 1997 and 2010 know very well they’re finished after Independence Day, the funding stops and they fade away. So they come up with answers that’s needed for their political funders to create headlines. West of Shetland will come online in 2016 with 500m barrels of known reserves, and that is just the beginning.
Compare the CPPPR stories with the links below (from two months ago), it’s either CPPPR, or the oil companies investing £billions, are correct …
http://www.offshore.no/international/news/article.aspx?Id=21352
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-21003704
@Morag,
The gleeful triumphalism with which they smugly trumpet every real or contrived obstacle they found to put in the way of independence.
Its a sad situation for Better Together to be in, however if we had no oil revenue and no powers as if we were an Independent Nation, then this is where we would be now, so we might as well have this volatile asset that Better Together think would sink Scotland into debt and actually take charge of it for the good of Scotland rather than spend it on London only infrastructure and Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Its Scotland’s Choice.
Two more oil fields East of Shetland will come online next year, the Harris and Barra fields combined will produce 66000 barrels per day for 15 years! This is a result of $1.5bn invested in the area. This doesn’t sound like an industry in decline, not for 40 years at least!
http://www.dana-petroleum.com/Global/PDFs/Misc/WIDP%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf
WE’VE DONE IT! CONGRATULATIONS STU! … and well done to the amazing contributor of £2500, that’s pretty awesome! i managed a tenth of that but will keep donating throughout the year. Well done everyone WHOOHOO!!
I love it when a plan comes together.
Shit! Sorry Stu, I was going to make a contribution before the deadline but I’ve been busy trying to fix a friends computer all night and I clean forgot about it. I still want to make another contribution but the deadlines past even though indigogo says there’s still 6 hours to go. I don’t want to chance my money getting lost in thin air, so if it’s ok with you I’ll send it through the other thingy tomorrow.
Anyway, well done on reaching the total!
🙂
“Shit! Sorry Stu, I was going to make a contribution before the deadline but I’ve been busy trying to fix a friends computer all night and I clean forgot about it. I still want to make another contribution but the deadlines past even though indigogo says there’s still 6 hours to go. I don’t want to chance my money getting lost in thin air, so if it’s ok with you I’ll send it through the other thingy tomorrow.”
The deadline isn’t until 7am.
Please please every one do not reply to the troll called Norsewarrior. it is the same idiot who used to be independenceNow on the Scotsman having previously been Yeah/ Yeah1/ AM2/ Highland /Mighty/ English voice and many many others. I have clear evidence that it is Lord Foulkes who has no other occupation except for filling in expenses claims and creating animosity with his hatred of Alex Salmond and the SNP. It is juvenile attention seeking and the very best way to frustrate him is to completely ignore him, as was eventually done on the Scotsman and caused him to leave. If users of this forum engage with him it will destroy the forum all together. Do you really want this to become the same as the Daily Telegraph forum?
Well done Rev, people power right enough. 🙂
Liked this comment in Scotsman on line.
Labour’s think tank CPPR known as Cant Produce Proper Results in academic circles or Constantly Pessimistic Propaganda Regurgitated in political circles has dutifully produced report saying oil won’t be worth very much and Scotland is a basket case.
“The deadline isn’t until 7 am”
Double shit! I missed it properly then.
I’ll go and donate now.
Richie
You are too late.
The Rev has skedaddled to the Caribbean with the loot.
That is precisely what I was thinking.
I wish. I’ve had to set fire to most of the money just to keep my typing fingers warm.
If an article on the trams fiasco had been issued on WOS the Unionists would all have chorused “whingers”, no vision , no ambition, etc. Alan Grant has been of great service by his incorrect tweet that has enabled justified corrective responses reminding a substantial readership that responsibility for the trams fiasco lies firmly at the feet of the LibDems,Tory and Labour parties.
And please lets develop a norm for response to Trolls- no more than three words? Coupling two words together – such as bull + shit permitted? Responses above were getting a bit less than the standard WOS enjoys.
@ Douglas Clark, I was never saying it couldn’t be done, I was merely pointing out that the funds they quoted for doing it was never realistic. I spoke to a couple of gangers who were there at the start of the project and the guys said its a minefield . No one had any sort of clue what would turn up day by day, the services turning up all the time that were not mapped , and no idea what’s live and not. They said it was a job to stay well clear off. This was long before it became obvious that the people running it were so out their depth. So yes it can be done, but your going to have to have a massive contingency fund to deal with the problems as they arose.
If you want to know how to take a good idea and make a complete dog’s breakfast out of it, look no further than Edinburgh trams. The problem with Edinburgh Trams is that the Edinburgh councillors involved in setting up the project were not fit for purpose. Incompetence. Ambition was not matched by ability. Tram networks have been successfully established and operated in hundreds of cities around the world. There are always teething problems. The Edinburgh Tram fiasco, however, is in a league of its own. We have been promised an inquiry, after the project is completed. I look forward to finding out who did what and why.
The CPPR – Who We Are
http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/cppr/whoweare
The CPPR.
According to the Uni, they do not fund the CPPR. If not, who then.
And only 3 employees, Professor Richard Harris, MacLaren and Armstrong.