Conflicting accounts
From an editorial in today’s Daily Record:
“The debate in the House of Commons yesterday proved once and for all that The Vow is doing its job.
The Prime Minister insisted no review is ‘on the horizon’, saving valuable funds for Holyrood.”
But that isn’t a very accurate report of events, for several reasons. Not least of them is the fact that David Cameron wasn’t even there.
We watched the debate, and it’s also recorded in Hansard. The Prime Minister wasn’t present for a single moment of the proceedings. Bizarrely, the debate actually ended in the middle of a sentence, as the transcript notes:
That happened because someone had shouted for an adjournment and the Speaker immediately granted it, and the Commons moved onto other business – a debate about health services in Halifax which was attended by just four MPs.
No vote was actually taken on the devolution motion (which called for “English votes for English laws” and a review of Barnett to form part of the process of granting the Scottish Parliament more powers – see Appendix), so it was not defeated.
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg, the signatories of “The Vow”, had not been among the handful of mainly-English MPs who actually showed up, nor had its architect Gordon Brown or the leader of the No campaign, Alistair Darling.
Cameron’s comments had in fact been made hours earlier, not in the chamber but before a committee. Plaid Cymru MP Hywel Williams raised them during the debate and got an interesting reply from Conservative MP Dominic Raab, who was the sponsor of the devolution motion:
DOMINIC RAAB: I suppose it depends on how broad, far and deep is one’s horizon.” (Col. 471)
And there was another revealing exchange between SNP MP Pete Wishart and Conservative MP Sir Gerald Howarth a short while later (our emphasis):
Alert readers will of course know that all of this is a diversion anyway, despite the rest of the Record’s increasingly frantic attempts at justifying its actions.
(Our emphasis again.) But the Barnett Formula itself can remain totally unchanged yet still see Scotland’s budget slashed by billions of pounds, because the formula will be applied to a far smaller percentage of Holyrood’s spending. And how do we know that? Because, um, David Cameron said so, at the exact same meeting, in comments that “Scotland’s Champion” didn’t feel were worthy of bringing to its readers’ attention:
“Mr Cameron told the committee reform of the Barnett formula was ‘not on the horizon’. He said that as more tax powers were devolved to Scotland and Wales the formula’s importance would decline.”
(Still our emphasis.) It’s fascinating to watch the Record’s flailing panic as it continues trying to mislead the Scottish public by pretending that the Prime Minister attended debates that he didn’t attend, that the efforts of Conservative backbenchers to impose conditions on “The Vow” had in some way been foiled when in fact they weren’t even voted on, and that keeping the Formula intact will also protect Scotland’s finances.
We look forward to the unfolding spectacle. And with the Smith Commission due to deliver its report in just six days’ time, there isn’t long to wait for the next chapter.
.
APPENDIX
The motion discussed, in the name of Dominic Raab, was:
“I beg to move that this House recognises the outcome of the referendum on Scottish independence; welcomes the freely expressed will of the people of Scotland to remain British; notes the proposals announced by Westminster party leaders for further devolution to Scotland; calls on the Government and Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition to bring forward proposals that are fair and reasonable for the whole of the United Kingdom, following a period of public consultation to enable people in all parts of the Union to express their views; and, in particular, calls on the Government to ensure such proposals include a review of the Barnett formula and legislative proposals to address the West Lothian question.”
“We do not live in a state where it is the divine right of kings to rule”
Has Gerald Howarth informed the Queen? She might be quite surprised to find out she’s suddenly had her constitutional powers removed from her.
The DR is a thrashing dying beast, soon to be replaced by The National.
Someone, call the vet.
I’m looking for a stronger word than ‘hate’ for my feelings towards the Daily Record.
Who is buying this rag?
If “The National” can provide good racing coverage, and a bit of footy banter, it will rapidly overhaul the DR in sales figures.
I am stunned – newspapers lying and misrepresenting views. I always thought the Record was the paper that represented the working class and fought for Scotland – oh bugger I appear to have stuck my tongue in my cheek again…LOOK SQUIRRELS!
Hopefully the National will serve Scotland better and replace the dying Daily Record.
It’s called going through the motions at WM. They can refer to the record that a debate was held on Devolution & that it was adjourned but not say that everone of the 8 attendees had run out of things to say so WM returns to its natural mode & obfuscation. But the held the debate as promised-aaargh!
As for DR-time to shut up shop methinks as they aren’t going to get themselves of the VOW hook anytime soon
Headline from The National, “Lying unionists caught lying again”
God they missed a trick with this headline the other day:
Shari Low: Latest study shows we lie ten times a week but what about the rest? (i did at first think the ‘we’ was actually about the Daily Record.)
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/family-relationships/shari-low-latest-study-shows-4657960
Shouldn’t have bothered with all the words – just went with a picture of the Daily Record Offices.
Don’t worry though folks.. Turns out the Record telling lies on a daily basis is just them sparing our Rabid Nationalist feelings.. Awww, bless them..
“Sometimes it’s imperative to fudge the facts, especially if you’re trying to spare someone’s feelings.”
Sir Gerald Howarth: That is a very stupid question. The constitutional point is that the leaders of the three parties made a commitment, but they are not in a position to deliver upon that commitment, because it is both Houses of Parliament that make the laws.
Says it all really. They made a promise, at The Record’s behest, they could not possibly keep …. and they knew it. With a EU exit imiment, the universal postal service apparently “unsustainable” and Frigates likely to be built in France … among many other things that we were promised would not happen if we voted NO …. is there an iota of credibility left for either the Unionist parties or their media colleagues?
News of the World, final edition had the front page headline…
“THANK YOU & GOODBYE”
I wonder if the DR will have one on their final edition(hopefully)that reads…
“DECEIVED YOU & FAILED”
Headline from The National, “Jackie Baillie ate my family”
The National.
Further information re this pro-independence DAILY newspaper in Scotland.
From the Guardian.
https://archive.today/ZY3TN
Headline from The National, “Murphy takes Dugdale up the aisle”
I’ll celebrate the demise of the Daylate Rectum even more than I did Thatcher’s.
O/T – what’s the story with this “National” newspaper? Can’t find anything on Google except via some budgie cage liner that I refuse to visit. Have they got a website?
The motion begins:
“I beg to move that this House recognises the outcome of the referendum on Scottish independence; welcomes the freely expressed will of the people of Scotland to remain British;
We did not vote on whether to remain British.
So in effect, if Brown and the shysters at the Record’s HE VOW Smith Commission actually produces any kind of change in any shape or form, its not going to get through the Commons. England has just way too much to lose devolving any more devo to Scotland. Should be interesting watching say the BBC in Scotland con arteests trying flog this fraud day after day over the next few months. “Jobs joy as MOD awards type bleh bleh destroyers to the French”
Dominic Raab
“the freely expressed will of the people of Scotland to remain British”.
Wait a minute, two errors. A majority of the people of Scotland obviously voted No., but not the 1.6million who voted Yes. Also I and the other Yessers voted not to be part of the UK, not Britain which is a geographical concept.
The definition of record as in Daily Record seems to have been replaced by propaganda. I know little about cricket but I am sure all the cricket teams in England put together can produce less spin than the DR.
Jim Thomson – your comment is spot on. I know many on here have no interest whatsoever in football but it’s one area where the Record and The Sun trump papers like the Sunday Herald. I still buy the latter and have ditched the Record but the football coverage in the SH is poor in comparison, especially the lower Scottish divisions (although they seem unduly fascinated by the Championship this season!). If the new one can get this right then the Record’s days truly could be numbered. Under 200,000 daily sales for the first time ever and falling.
Headline from The National, “Super Nats Go Ballistic Labour Are Atrocious”
just wait till next week.smith report I bet will not give full tax raising powers.
SIR GERALD HOWARTH: That is a very stupid question… – then goes on to agree entirely with the premise of the question confirming that it was actually a very pertinent question.
Are these people pished when they go to “work” or do they just think that the rest of us are?
The National—Scotland’s independence DAILY newspaper.
Starting Monday 24th November 2014.
Info from City AM.
http://www.cityam.com/1416578739/new-newspaper-national-will-be-first-scottish-daily-support-independence
Yo!
The National.
Further information re this pro-independence DAILY newspaper in Scotland.
From the Guardian.
Rancid Graun says its from the Herald “stable” which is very hard to take after Herald, Scotsman, BBC turned into rabid vote NO or else Scotland propaganda machines. I bought the Graun for 30 years and wouldn’t use it for loo roll now. That the whole UKOK media annihilated Scottish democracy all together is one thing but it doesn’t get much worse outside war time. Just the thought of paying any of their miserable profits again is disgusting.
Gerald Howarth’s claim is an example of England’s descent into parliamentary absolutism.
Historically under English constitutional law the monarch in parliament could change the law. This was supposed to protect against arbitrary law changes. It is what distinguished England from absolutist monarchies.
If parliament “makes” the law it is parliamentary despotism. The “rule of law” replaced with “the law is what we say it is”.
It probably won’t surprise anyone to find that Professor Tomkins is on the wrong side of this argument. If the English parliament chose to make murder legal, there is apparently, no higher source of law that would override them:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmeuleg/633/63305.htm
Yes – here – but it’s just a placeholder for now.
Whenever I see those regular “debates” in empty chambers in HofC,I always think of the start of Hitchhikers where the confused Demolition foreman finds himself agreeing to act on the assumption that Arthur Dent is lying in protest rather than off down the pub as it doesnt really matter if hes physically there of not if “you think about it eh?”.
We assume MPs are at work all day on our behalf to earn wages from our money. Heaven forbid!
Has the DR disabled all reader comments? Can’t see any on any articles…
‘The National’ – no, not that big horse race at Aintree. The new Scottish daily. All I see is cynical opportunism. The Herald owners playing in both sides of the football field. I’ll give it a chance but where will it be when another IndyRef pops up?
O/T – Hope to see some Wingers tomorrow after Hydro event. I shall be meeting Mrs Proud Cybernat at YES Corner in Glasgow and heading down to the YES Bar in Drury St. (opposite The Horseshoe).
Headline from the National, “Jim Murphy accused of being a socialist”
SIR GERALD HOWARTH: “That is a very stupid question…”
This is just one example of how SNP MPs are treated with contempt by the ‘honourable’ members (and Speaker, for that matter).
Does anyone have the facility to slice together extracts from HoC debates showing similar disrespect and derision for elected representatives of Scottish constituents?
You could also add the numerous examples of where Scotland’s Labour MPs (the country members!) put party before Westminster, and Westminster before constituents.
300,000 Wingers who don’t watch HoC debates will then have the evidence to demonstrate to others why we need more SNPs at Westminster.
Stick a fork in them, the roast is almost done.
Yet another great piece by the Rev.
Do the DR realise that every time they try and tell lies they get found out?
Looking forward to buying a pro indy daily paper.
Daily Record tick tock..
If ‘The National’ represents an opportunity to torpedo the Record then it must not be missed by the 90,000/1.6m.
BUY ‘THE NATIONAL’ – PROMOTE ‘THE NATIONAL’ –
SUPPORT ‘THE NATIONAL’
Strange that they used to say Scotland would be free when the last Church of Scotland Minister was strangled with the Sunday Post. Now it would appear that Scotland will be free when the last Editor of the last Unionist Newspaper and the Controller of the BBC in Scotland are just strangled.
I hate to be that blood thirsty but really, lying sods.
Perhaps the DR should be reporting the despondency that is now afflicting the Westminster establishment down south.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/11/tweeting-picture-house-not-act-class-warfare-whatever-sun-says
This is me giving notice: the UK is a fucked state. Our political class is beyond repair, and the lazy slide into populist right-wing bigotry signalled by Ukip’s victory in the the Rochester and Strood by-election is probably irreversible. Not because Ukip are in any sense great, because Ukip are just the evil ventriloquist’s dummy from Richard Attenborough film Magic with a posse, but because everyone else in politics is terrible. Labour are terrible. The Conservatives are terrible. The Lib Dems would be terrible, but they’ve shrivelled to a vestigial appendage of the Tories and will soon wither and drop off. And most terrible of all is our political media, which has spent most of the last 24 hours hounding a Labour MP for tweeting a picture of St-George’s-cross festooned house with a white van in the driveway in Rochester.
Who knew?
@Manandboy
I’ll be hauling one in on the way to work Monday a.m., which will be artfully left in the works canteen. 🙂
If the The Daily Record goes under, that’ll be one less call John McTernan has to make every day.
Now who does that leave for John to phone – oh yes, John Boothman, head of propaganda at the BBC and Magnus Gardham, unionist spin doctor at the Herald.
Far more importantly, it will put an end to the written flow of lies which reaches the electorally important elderly on a daily basis.
Up to a million pensioners may soon be having record withdrawal symptoms
Every cloud has a silver lining – eh John?
Now, let me see, when will The National hit the news stands?
@heedtracker
The most important element of any editor is it’s political ones, the national is being run by the sunday heralds editor.
So I wouldn’t worry about it.
Buy it.
Enjoy it.
Talk about it.
It’s about time we took the battle to them.
I do hope that the The National Paper in truly on our side.
Macart says:
“I’ll be hauling one in on the way to work Monday a.m., which will be artfully left in the works canteen.”
I love the way you think!
Full Cabinet lineup:
news.scotland.gov.uk/News/New-ministerial-line-up-unveiled-1285.aspx
OK lets try:
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/New-ministerial-line-up-unveiled-1285.aspx
So this new pro-indy newspaper is actually owned by the enemy?! Nowt like having a foot in both camps.
“These jockos won’t buy our regular editions but here’s a way we can get cash off them…”
Not for me thanks. I’ll stick with Wings, Newsnet, etc. I’d love to see the Scots Independent have a go at bringing out a more regular edition though. We definitely need a physical newspaper but I don’t think helping to prop up their failing dailies is the answer.
Do editors and journalists at the Daily Record wear orange aprons and insignia while going about their mundane business? It seems so for they have no regard for truth or ethics.
Dave Beveridge says:
“So this new pro-indy newspaper is actually owned by the enemy?!”
Dave, for me, if he supplies us with ammunition, he’s just a businessman.
He’s only the enemy when he supplies ammo exclusively to the unionists.
@Manandboy
Its a talent of sorts. 😀
Hope everyone has a good time in the big toon tonight.
Don’t be too rowdy mind. 😀
Proud Cybernat. So it might be cynical opportunism, and probably not the unbiased print media we wanted to see, but why not wait until we get some idea of what it actually prints, before attacking it?
We wanted some kind of unbiased newspaper for those amongst the electorate in Scotland who do not access the internet, for whatever reason, and this is a foot in the door. Newspapers will always have their own political agenda – it’s what they’re for and what they do.
This is a sign that the media are recognising that we in Scotland are not prepared to continue to swallow the same old shit.
@Wilma
If they’re the real deal we’ll have representation and they’ll make lots of money. They’ll also get free word of mouth advertising and access to a potentially huge Scottish market. If they’re not we drop them like a hot brick, they make no money and disappear without a ripple.
S’up to them how successful they become.
Wilma if the New National paper fails to deliver it will go under.
David Beveridge, Regardless of who publishes it right now, they are all our enemy, not everyone is either willing or able to access Wings etc. The reason we lost out was not enough publicity and hard copy is what we need for some of the auld ones, and sadly even some of the young ones.
If it does not deliver it will be an easy kill.
Not unhappy with the Sunday Herald as an Indy supporter. Do not see why the National should not succeed. I doubt if Gardham will be given space. well worth supporting.
The American owner of The Herald may just be rather astute –
catching the tide just as it turns and getting the jump on the competition.
If the future is Indy or Federal or anything except the Union, then there won’t be much of a future for a Unionist media.
Let’s give The National a chance and has already been wisely said – if it doesn’t get the job done then we dump it.
So basically what you’re saying Rev is that the Record along with Brown and Darling sold Scotland down the River Clyde (my emphasis)?
Who knew!
Good to hear that Scotland is getting a new pro-indy newspaper by way of The National. As mentioned above, if this were to include the likes of basic sports coverage, crossword, puzzle page and readers mail/comments etc.. it could be the new champion, utterly.
We need new (print) media to counter-question these conflicting accounts.
»»»»»
Hey Rev. Stuart, what you up to tomorrow night? If you’re at a loose end, consider joining us all in ayeGlasgow for the seasonal festivities, cheers.
The name reeks of keich, PR and marketing teams who don’t know the market. If they wanted “The National” to be a real newspaper they would have given it a real newspaper name.
Why brand the product with a name that shouts “nationalism” and that therefore, many people won’t even consider looking at.
If they really wanted to have a successful pro independence newspaper, they would call it “The Inquirer” or some other name that people could put some trust in. A paper that asked and attempted to answer questions on independence would be a real asset to us all.
As it is, it looks like a very cynical attempt to cash in on “nationalism” by people who don’t understand that what’s happening in Scotland is much more pwerful than “nationalism”. Branding and labelling are crucial. Why so clearly get it wrong at the outset? It looks to be doomed to failure from the start by the very people who launched it.
It will be interesting to see what Newsquest’s reaction will be if The National outsells The Herald.
Let’s make it happen. and ‘Taxi For Gardham’
Can I suggest that the’I’ in the title be printed in Upper Case on the masthead
give the “national” a chance, if it does not come up to the mark of truth that we expect, it will be dumped.
it’s very clear that WM don’t GAF about the VOW.
do i, only in so much it was offered as the nearest thing to keir hardie’s home rule, which is a good start, but only a start.
O/T
It seems that despite the pickup in economy, the global deficit of the UK has increased by 6% w/r to last year.
Explanation is that the profusion of 0-hour or underpaid contracts generate but a minimal amount of taxable income.
Talk about the breadline.
Sorry O/T but It’s been a hellish day listening to the radio.
First off we had call k bigging up fracking in her usual condescending manner this morning, then in the afternoon on radio 2 we had Jeremy Vine talking to some plonker from UKIP land who thinks the St george’s flag is the flag of Britain!
Please, for the love of the Almighty give me strength!!!
The National will also be on the internet, aye? If so, will someone making a pro-indy comment on the site be called a cybernat-cybernat, or cyber-cybernat, cybernat-nat, or cyber-cyber-nat-nat…?
Gillie@3.18 Why did I automatically read the last word of that sentence as arse?
Stephen.
@Dave Beveridge says: 21 November, 2014 at 3:19 pm:
“what’s the story with this “National” newspaper? Can’t find anything on Google except via some budgie cage liner that I refuse to visit. Have they got a website?
Don’t know of a website but I’m informed it is reported on the CEEFAX text service on BBC TV.
Breaking news: MPs just voted in favour of the plan that would keep the NHS out of TTIP – the US-EU trade agreement that threatens to increase privatisation in our public services. The law’s through to the next stage in parliament. [1]
241 MPs voted for it and only 18 MPs voted against. It looks like the government told their MPs to boycott the vote. [2] Maybe they realised they couldn’t win..?
Also, shortly, coming to a location near you.
.
@Lorraine says: 21 November, 2014 at 3:21 pm:
” … We did not vote on whether to remain British.”
Correct, Loraine, we will still be British after we take our independence from The United Kingdom and thereby DISUNITE that bipartite UNITED KINGDOM.
I don’t want a newspaper that supports Indy.
And obviously, I don’t want a media that is so rampantly unionist.
I want a media that is balanced, reports the facts, favours neither and investigates all.
Is that too much to ask?
The National launch is great news, a bit strange it’s 5 days a week not 6 though.
It’ll be pro-indy, but that won’t mean it’s rabid like much of the Unionist press is, and that’s good. There would be “bad news” stories for the indy camp occasionally, much like there were in the Sunday Herald. That’s good too, as it will need to be pro-indy, but cover the news iteslf in a basically impartial way.
It should leave the Herald free to pushing for those extensive powers that were the reason it came out for NO.
Gardham’s not so bad by the way, I think he’s been shaken by Labour the last few months, perhaps in the same way Kevin McKenna was.
@I G says: 21 November, 2014 at 3:35 pm:
” … Are these people pished when they go to “work” or do they just think that the rest of us are?”.
Don’t be daft, I G. Would YOU get pished if you got cheap subsidised booze AT your work?
Pardon me, if this cynical old hack sounds a note of caution – but: I worry about this new paper. It all seems to me to have been done in something of a rush.
I can understand that Newsquest might want to keep their plans under-wraps, but, with just a weekend to go before it launches, they haven’t exactly pre-sold it well.
They haven’t been recruiting extra staff, so, it looks as if it will be largely freelance-driven and perhaps they will be asking Sunday Herald staffers to work an extra shift or two, and maybe pulling-in guys from the Herald and the Times.
I could see it, in a way, being a sort of Evening Times, extended beyond its Greater Glasgow heartland.
Nothing against Richard Walker, who is a terrific design and layout guy, but, not by nature the sort of hot-shot news guy a successful red-top needs.
I wish it well, however, a pro-indy tabloid has to be a welcome addition to the Scottish newspaper scene, but, I am not too-optimistic about the way it has been set-up.
It could be a case of: “Let’s see how it goes between now and the GE, then think about a longer life”.
@ Pam McMahon
“…why not wait until we get some idea of what it actually prints, before attacking it?”
I did say, “…I’ll give it a chance…”
@dmw42 says: 21 November, 2014 at 4:26 pm:
SIR GERALD HOWARTH: “That is a very stupid question…”
“Does anyone have the facility to slice together extracts from HoC debates showing similar disrespect and derision for elected representatives of Scottish constituents?
Yes, dmw, YOU have that facility. You will find the full reports of all the Westminster debates in the Westminster Parliamentary website under the heading of, “HANSARD”.
Here’s some links for you.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/
Doug Daniels
‘Has Gerald Howarth informed the Queen?’
I think someone needs to inform Gerald.
Dave Beveridge @ 5.03pm.
I’m with you on this one…well…mostly.
It will still be foreign owned by supporters of the Union.
I will not be buying it for that reason and (a)-I don’t buy national newspapers anyway and (b)-Like you, if there is anything worth knowing in it we will soon know about it on here or one of the other sites.
Yes, as previously discussed elsewhere on WOS, there is a market out there for such a paper and i think it will probably be well received at first, BUT, whether it survives or not only time will tell.
I also have no intentions of helping it to prop up its dominant Unionist arm – it would take an awful lot more than rave reviews from my fellow Yessers and a good puzzle/joke section which included Sudoku for me to even contemplate buying it.
If it speeds up the demise of The Rectum and Hootsmin…..
🙂
A wee curious side note – i wonder who its journalists are, would it not be amazing if they just happened to be those who were recently dumped by The Hootsmin and it ended up being responsible for The Hootsmins closure, as well as The Rectums!
That possibility MIGHT just get me buying a subscription or 3.
OH YEAH!
🙂
Re the new newspaper – its not really for us as most of us will continue to get our news online but we need a paper than can get to people who don’t use the net.
It would be good if they had guest writers like the Rev, WGD, D Bateman.
We need to get info out there.
There was a guy on twitter promising a newspaper but there is no sign of it yet.
Socrates
I don’t think it needs advance publicity, I daresay they realise it’ll be all around social media in about 10 minutes flat! I guess Monday too is after Sturgeon’s Hydro, becoming FM, shuffling cabinet, latest polls perhaps, and Smith in its last week.
I’ll be up early on Monday to get my copy …
Socrates: about a month ago one of the commenters on here was telling us about a journalist friend at the Record who had got a new job at the Sunday Herald. So maybe this has been in development for a while but they’ve been keeping it under wraps and recruiting on the quiet.
Robert Peffers
yes, we are british.
who does howarth speak for, not for the people that’s for sure.
wishart on the other hand is speaking for the people, when the VOW was made it was addressing the people of scotland.
so howarth says those who believed the VOW are stupid, because it was not promised by parliament.
A thought. If the votes of those entitled to but didn’t vote in the referendum had been added, by default to the, “Yes” total Scotland would now be negotiating it’s departure from the UK with a total of 2,281,466 votes in favour of the proposal. Next time it would be wise to include this rider.
O/T.
I was out at my gate this morning and a local Labour activist I know well thought to have a go at me. He opened the conversation with :-
HE – “Ah see yon Sturgeon haes set up a new SNP cabinet. Ah expect it wull jist be the same auld SNP cabinet they haed afore”.
ME – “Weel no she didna. Fir she haes a 50%/50% male tae female split noo”.
HE – “Aye! That’ll be richt, she’s jist stealin Labour policies. Ah smell shite”.
ME – Aye! Ye kin smell shite richt enuch – yer nose is faur ower near yer ain earse.
He never said another word – just went red in the face and walked away.
I’ve been laughing at the look on his face since this morning.
The Daily Rancid has always had a reputation in Glasgow at least, of being a strong pro unionist paper. This relates to the malignant scribblings of past journalist especially in the sports section i.e. Mcpherson, Cameron, Jackson et al, who pandered to the Neanderthal section of Rangers support and public at large who supported unionism.( NO SURRENDER ETC) we still see parading the streets joyfully singing their bile laden ditties
It was well known in Glasgow you would not get a job on the Record if you were not Church of Scotland. I suppose this has been exacerbated by continuing with this emphasis in senior journalist posts and adding unionist publishers to complete the poisonous mix. In many ways like its ideology it is past its sell by date, and like the people it panders to, it is beginning to appear unpleasant. Time it was binned methinks.
Dan Huil says
“The National will also be on the internet, aye? If so, will someone making a pro-indy comment on the site be called a cybernat-cybernat, or cyber-cybernat, cybernat-nat, or cyber-cyber-nat-nat…?”
None of the above,
well be known as posters! 🙂
“It’s fascinating to watch the Record’s flailing panic as it continues trying to mislead the Scottish public”
It somehow doesn’t seem to have occurred to the editor that THE VOW would very quickly be put around the neck of the Record for lying to the scottish public. All the more surprising since the Record is a revolving door for employing ‘scottish’ labour policy wonks and has-beens. You would think they at least would have warned the newsdesk that Labour will always blame anyone other than themselves and would start distancing themselves from THE VOW very quickly. Labour and it’s London branch office will definitely try to let the Record take all the blame and pretend it had nothing to do with them as THE VOW unravels and is revealed to be a pitiful handful of small measures that are light-years away from Devomax and near federalism the scottish public wants.
The launch of the National will have them panicking then you add to that the upcoming Trinity Mirror involvement in phone-hacking starting to hit home pretty soon and it’s pretty clear the Record will be in the shit for quite some time to come.
We’ll dammit.
Balaaargh says:
21 November, 2014 at 6:14 pm
I don’t want a newspaper that supports Indy.
And obviously, I don’t want a media that is so rampantly unionist.
I want a media that is balanced, reports the facts, favours neither and investigates all.
Is that too much to ask?
=======================================
Well you haven’t got a media now that is balanced.
You do have a media now that is rampantly unionist.
Perhaps One newspaper that is rampantly nationalist will give at least one voice against all the rampantly unionist propaganda rags currently here now.
I will give this newspaper a chance. I do have a reservation though the fact it is from the Sunday Herald. I could never understand how the Herald and the Sunday Herald could be on both sides in the indyref. But as I said I will give it a try.
Just finished watching the film on fracking “Gasland”. Thanks to whoever posted the link maybe on the previous thread. This film should be shown to everyone who lives in a potential fracking area. Scary stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mp4ELXKv-w
I just came across this ‘article’:
http://ballochexaminer.com/2014/11/21/if-you-tolerate-this-your-children-will-be-next/
Difficult to really know what to say about it…
Fresh probe over referendum letter
“Seven senior councillors in Aberdeen are to face a Standards
Commission investigation into a letter sent to residents ahead
of the referendum.”
“The letter was sent with council tax bills in June,
urging people in the city to back a “No” vote.”
“The commission will examine whether the councillors broke
its code of conduct.”
“Those facing charges are former council leader Barney Crockett,
Jenny Laing, Willie Young, Neil Cooney, Fraser Forsyth and Ross
Thomson.”
source: BBC Teletext Service.
Poe’s Law has really done a number on UK politics when it comes to Scottish Independence. If it’s satire, it’s up there with Hard Dawn: if it isn’t, it’s practically indistinguishable from the mad ramblings of Cochrane et al.
chalks says:
21 November, 2014 at 4:52 pm
@heedtracker
The most important element of any editor is it’s political ones, the national is being run by the sunday heralds editor.
So I wouldn’t worry about it.
Its just business, dudes like Magnus Cardham, tory boy execs watching their market and clearly there are quite a lot of Scots to peddle their wares to, like me and you, who are not likely to buy a Scottish newspaper for, well again:D
If you want to pay the wages and pensions of that lot of UKOK propagandists fine but as an example there’s a columnist on the Herald that was never off the BBC all the way to 18th really pushing Project Fear and her last job was Alistair Darling’s spin doc. Maybe she was right, vote NO 18th Sept or you wont know what money left in your purse that hasn’t been stolen by AlicSamin and his mad out of control cybnats, will even be called. I completely forget her name but she looked like what a sneering Laura Kinsberg will when she’s in her eighties.
When David Cameron says that “no review of the Barnett formula is on the horizon,” he’s just doing that funny thing that these “vow-makers” do, y’know, just saying something in a way that is open to a million interpretations and therefore means absolutely nothing. In fact, this morning, while I was out running on a beach in South Ayrshire, I looked several times towards the horizon, and I do not recall seeing any review of the Barnett formula on it. I’ll be running in the Galloway hills tomorrow, so I’ll see several different horizons, but I would be very surprised if a review of the Barnett formula appeared on any of them. (Please excuse me for a moment while I adjust the zip on the back of my head.)
OT:
Scottish Labour tensions, part 54
Just watched the Scottish Evening News taster,great start,informative already.
( Morag honey, you will meet us tomorrow? Sorry some of you boys, but the lovely Morag is absolutely the bees knees )
Liz @ 6.47.
Nail on head.
I agree, we on here don’t really need a national leaning paper to tell us what’s what. But we’ve been saying for months that if only we could get the word out to those who don’t have computers and the Internet, i.e. the elderly, who voted 70% No, then we might have a better chance. After all, most of us experienced the situation where, after being given good information, (WBB and all), many potential No’s became Yes.
So the chances of those people even knowing about The National, far less buying it, are slim.
Which is why all of my copies will be finding good homes, for example, sheltered housing complexes.
A pro indy paper is essential as newspapers set bbc agenda and Tv radio always quote print media headlines which in the past was always anti scottish self determination thats why all pro indy supporters should buy The National even if it is not always 100 per cent on message
The Daily Record, never letting the facts get in the way of a good (?) story.
After the GE when the Blue Tory government deliver Devo Hee-Haw, the Record can return to its default position of blaming the nasty Tories and no doubt have a go at the SNP while they’re at it for “stealing” all the Labour votes and allowing Cameron back in. “If only you had voted Labour” will be their cry.
Ps does anyone have a stream link to nicola,s hydro gig plus when does it start?
Also check out Stanley Odd,s Son I voted yes who are warm up act at hydro
muttley79 says:
21 November, 2014 at 7:54 pm
I just came across this ‘article’:
http://ballochexaminer.com/2014/11/21/if-you-tolerate-this-your-children-will-be-next/
Difficult to really know what to say about it…
Typical Cybernat response to try to undermine the legitimacy of trusted and respected news sources in accusing the Balloch Examiner of being satirical. You’ll be calling us scaremongering neo-liberal frack-merchants next. Check out Page 3!
Sinky – timetable for tomorrow.
12.30pm Disabled access via the East door
1pm All other doors open at 1pm
1.30pm Support bands begin
2pm The Main Event
You must be in the venue by 1.45 or you will lose your seat to someone on the reserve list.
@sinky
Not at the moment it is possible that an in house video will be produced for later release.
Print off the above article and hand it out to people buying the Retard.
Sinky @9.18
Sinky you are on track use same as metro, I intend to purchase several and drop them off at old folks homes in my area along with a few miners social clubs. Dont care how we do this to much at stake with TTIP and Fracking our country will not last 10 or 20 years once water is contaminated and health issues identified it will be to late. Everything and anything needs to be done including direct action if Scottish Government allows TTIP and Fracking then hell mend it.
re the National –
Several upthread comments mention the Sports section of this new venture.
We all know people who buy the DR because they love the layout of the Racing pages. People get used to something? they don’t want it to change, and it’s got nada to do with intelligence, political awareness, party loyalty or anything else.
I hope the National copies the DR racing pages, and makes it obvious that that’s what they’re doing – layout, font-size, the wee coloured-in jockeys’ outfits etc etc. Ape it in every respect, to the extent that it can be left in the works canteen, open at those pages, and it will be picked up by folk who ‘recognise’ it as the DR.
And when the DR finally goes under? Change the National’s Racing form style to mimic that used in the Sun…
@sinky
This is from @SNP
The event will be live streamed on http://voteSNP.com/LIVE from 13:20hrs tomorrow.
Socrates MacSporran,
“I worry about this new paper.”
It is being published by the unionists.
How they will laugh when independence supporters rush to buy it.
By buying the Sunday Herald for one day of a few pro-independence stories, Yes supporters are keeping alive the Herald to publish its poison for the other 6 days of the week.
W o S readers should set up a pro-independence newspaper under Stuart’s editorship.
We would have a vast, skilled and unrivaled volunteer army of reporters spread throughout Scotland.
Did anyone hear Denis Canavan on RS Newsdrive this evening?
He was bemoaning the dearth of talent in SLab, but singled out Jackie Baillie for praise, saying that she’s been doing a pretty good job as interim ‘leader’.
Naughty Denis! (You won’t catch him checking any gift-horse’s gob…)
Been thinking about all these fracking scare stories recently and wondering if this is all part of a bigger plan from Labour.
For example, Labour are looking to get back the Scottish vote but realise they can’t achieve this under Murphy.
They desperately need to show the public they are a left-leaning party (bear with me) so they push forward Findlay to fulfill that need.
Anyone knw if Findlay was involved in the unions dealing with the Grangemouth/Ineos troubles?
What if Findlay lands the leadership, promises to take on Ineos to stop the fracker, wins the day for Labour and at the same time regaining the votes and confidence of the central belt.
Of course after the GE, Findlay would be expected to revert to incompetence and forget the promises, as per the vow.
A door presents itself and in walks Murphy.
Feasible?
Stop Press
NICOLA GIG Line Up and LIVE STREAM Details:
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/nov/acts-unveiled-biggest-date-snp-tour
Another wee Labour Party gem.
Labour Party MP Michael Mann explains to a BBC reporter today what TRUE Labour Party values are.
4 mins long, stay with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkxPaBgJ1zg
I wonder what Scottish Labour will make of it.
Helena Brown 5.22pm
If it does not deliver it will be an easy kill.
Is that 2 to the chest and 1 to the head?
Have you ever hit an animal with your car then finished it off with your bare hands?
The funny thing is did we really want a one – sided pro-indy paper? I just wanted a newspaper that was impartial and investigated everything with rigour and integrity. And one that came out for indy in the months before the referendum.
Trouble was every daily took a stance and it was no every time. Even those ‘left leaning’ so called progressive rags the guardian and Independent FFS were unable to see further than their metro centric bubble.
The printed press is dying but it cost us big time having this wall of lies confront voters at the new stand. If this helps destroy the Record it will be worth £3 a week for that alone.
Thanks
Feasible? No squarehaggis
Do you know how much frak gas profit is under our feet right now squarehaggis? I bet no one does except oil cos and dudes like Ian Wood which is why he came out with all no oil left guns blazing. One of the greatest frauds on Scotland by our many filthy rich rogues. Still they’ll be a few jobs going as one more Scottish resource gets looted.
http://www.statoil.com/EN/OUROPERATIONS/GAS/Pages/default.aspx?gclid=CO2UwcLpjMICFTLJtAodeyEAyQ
Cracking picture of the Hydro on the SNP facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/photos/a.10150658219284078.413287.77249349077/10152932682564078/?type=1&theater
For all of you going to the Hydro tomorrow, have a good one. Wish I was going now, will watch you all on the Livestream feed.
Maybe see some of you in the town centre after it.
Paula my dear, I’ll meet you if I see you. 12,000 is an awful lot of people.
Jimmy Hood MP for South Lanarkshire strike one for the miners who suffered in 1984. He really is a character.
October 2014; Jim Hood MP accused of misusing parliamentary privilege after making ‘serious accusations against a noble lord
Lord Brittan has been accused of failing to act on a dossier about alleged VIP paedophile rings given to him by MP Geoffrey Dickens in 1983. The peer has denied the claims. During a Commons debate on coalfield communities last night, Mr Hood said, “By the way, the current exposé of Sir Leon Brittan, the then home secretary, with accusations of improper conduct with children will not come as a surprise to striking miners of 1984.” However, Mr Hood continued, “The rumours that Sir Leon Brittan was involved with misconduct with children does not come as news to miners who were striking in 1984. When miners were going up into the dock in magistrates’ courts we were aware and miners were declaring… the point is miners were saying in the dock in magistrates’ courts throughout the strike that they objected to instructions coming from the home secretary when there was reports about child abuse being linked with that same home secretary.”
http://caltonjock.com/2014/11/21/871/
Just in, noticed my email from Peter, never knew we were getting full Gig from bands and all sorts as well as Alex S, Nicola S and the full team, really looking forward to this, hope the Press is there, lets give them something to report, although they’ll probably not….see you all there
http://mediatel.co.uk/newsline/2014/11/07/national-newspaper-abc-oct-2014/
🙂
@Balaaargh 6.15
And I want a fairy to give me the winning ticket in the lotto.
The market was obviously wide open for a paper, given its owners its unlikely to be OTT, but if it thrives it will trigger competition and other papers may change their tone to be more like what you hope for. Its a shame a Scottish owned company did not jump in, but BUY, Read and SHARE
Dr Jim don’t forget 95% of the musicians support a YES vote .
Many did loads of appearances FREE .
Plus we all had them involved at flashmobs etc
We owe them a huge debt of thanks , in many ways they had a huge influence on the YES movement being the uplifting fun that it was .
These were fab days to remember .
The SNP Hydro day should be great , hope you all enjoy .
I don’t know if anyone saw this on Wednesday ITV news but I thought I’d flag it up just for the sheer chutzpah of it. I think that the MSM have now came to the conclusion that it can get away with anything after what they did during the referendum.
There was a piece about Mark Reckless stating that he said long term immigrants would need to go home and to back it up they went to a VT of him where he then went and said no such thing and right at the end there seemed to be an overlaid laughter track which didn’t seem to meld with what was going on. It then cut back to the outside reporter stating that everybody have laughed at his statement.
I watched this a few times and it just looked so odd.
Showing my age, but every time I see the name Dugdale, I get a mental image of “DINDSALE!!!” in the Python sketch as called out by his arch nemesis ‘Spiny Norman’.
I think part of the connection is made by the recollection that ‘Spiny’ bore a distinct resemblance, at least through the mists of time, to David Cameron.
‘Spinning Neo-Norman’?
@clootie,
I see the Sunday Herald as conspicuous by it’s absence among those graphs.
Wonder why?
Dinsdale even
Interesting read
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/11/the-trident-test/
Didn’t a load of journalists get laid off after the referendum. Perhaps, the National is a response to creating work for them.
Rock says:
“By buying the Sunday Herald for one day of a few pro-independence stories, Yes supporters are keeping alive the Herald to publish its poison for the other 6 days of the week..”
I think we should give it a chance.
Don’t really care if it is owned by the same US company that owns the Herald, or that they are out to make a profit.
Realistically, something like this wasn’t going to get crowdfunded online. Printing presses cost a lot of money.
This is what we have been crying out for !!
And a tabloid has the potential to outsell the Herald.
The broadsheet format is dying out for daily newspapers.
So if it is a success it may REPLACE the Herald, which is down to 36,500 daily sales.
I think the title is fine, if it aims to be a national newspaper, in the same vein as ‘The Scotsman’
But the masthead seems a bit too political.
“The newspaper that supports an independent Scotland.”
For something like this to work, it needs to be mass market, and not make potential readers feel like political activists by buying it.
Hopefully it can eat into the Daily Record audience, with a mix of light entertainment and sports, rather than mostly political news and analysis.
It will be great to see a good quality paper that can sell in its own right, rather than depending on the goodwill of YES voters.
But one things for sure – If we don’t support it, then it will die – and we are back to square one.. complaining about the usual biased media..
So Sir Gerald is saying that Cameron is a lying shyster who acted and spoke beyond his capacity.
Seems a fair summation.
I read the Command Paper the other day and I confess to being sceptical that Westminster will deliver even if Smith does come up with a promising package.
I simply don’t trust Westminster.
@heedtracker at 8:23pm, re the Herald writer who was always on BBC programmes, I think this is her:
“Catherine MacLeod is a former political editor of The Herald and was a ‘special adviser’ to Alistair Darling when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer.”
I first saw her on STV’s referendum night prog. She struck me as a nasty piece of work, a true fanatic about her political beliefs, with that look in her eyes that all zealots have about their faith.
She seemed the type who would eagerly volunteer to “bayonet the wounded” for the Labour/Unionist cause. Obsessed, devoted, not open to new thoughts or the arguments of other people.
Not nice at all. I think Derek Bateman referred to her in an article, saying that she is very close to the Scottish Labour top brass, so read her column if you want to know what Slab are really thinking.
@SquareHaggis , 12:34 am
“I see the Sunday Herald as conspicuous by it’s absence among those graphs. Wonder why?”
I think that nowadays the S Herald has been re-classified as a ‘regional paper’, which only requires it to report its sales figures twice a year, instead of every month. This is because (a) it saves them money; and (b) their sales figures were declining.
Let Bella soothe ye all to sleep http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/11/21/labour-the-giant-carp/
@Clootie
They earned it and then some. 🙂
I have got out the habit of buying a daily newspaper,but I’ll certainly be out to get a National on Monday.
BBC Scotland have no room in their headlines this morning for the Nicola/SNP gig at the Hydro. A mere 12000 are expected.
The Lib Dems, with pics of Carmichael and Rennie, are top of the news in Scotland, as they are in favour of devolving all welfare to Holyrood.
The Lib Dems are having a 1 day Conf in Dunfermline today. I wonder if them being skint and about to disappear from British politics has anything to do with that.
The LibDems polled 347 votes in Rochester & Strood, 0.87% of the vote. Now they’re headline news in Scotland according to the BBC.
Forget the UK – this is British North Korea.
The Radical Independence Campaign (RIC) makes it into the headlines with 3000 expected.
I don’t expect the BBC to cover the Nicola gig today.
Sorry to go O/T but I’m looking for advice.
I’ve had my car (tastefully) Yessed for a year now but I’m changing some of the decals.
On both side I have –
Scotland Should be an independent country
*Wings Over Scotland *BBC Scotlandshire
*Bisuness For Scotland *Bella Caledonia
*Newsnet Scotland *DerekBateman
*Yes Scotland *Yes Dundee
There is no positive case for the union.
(The asterix’s are actually wee Saltire hearts)
I’m taking off BBC Scotlandshire and Yes Scotland decals but I don’t know what to have in their place. I’ve thought of taking it all of and starting again with a huge Wings Over Scotland logo on both sides (as I hold Wings and you Wingers way above any other pro Indy site) but I’m also thinking about our new newspapers to give them a shout.
Thoughts please Wingers.
Woo Hoo. Just got an email from eventbrite saying I’m now off the waiting list for tickets to the Hydro and do I still want tickets…..Er effin right I do. See some of you there. See some of you in the Yes Bar. WooHoo are you sure we “lost”?
Roll call,
who’s all going?
take one step back Wee Jonny,
we all know your going,
Pitt street Police Station has withdrawn all leave! 🙂
Here’s a wee update from the guys at Scottish Evening News.
http://tinyurl.com/nfeejvz
Covering TTIP – soz if posted earlier
Wee Jonny says
“Thoughts please Wingers.”
what about this (@2.17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v31sXoATz5Y
or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD21Hvlgv54
Or this even
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg00FV9S6is
“A little bit toastie”
john king – Ha na yir arite, I’ll stick we mi stickers.
OPENING PLENARY: ANOTHER SCOTLAND IS POSSIBLE 10.30 – 11.30AM it goes on till 4.45pm.
Tam Jardine@10.54pm, Wrong person to raise the matter of killing with, I am a dog owner who has had in the past had the miserable duty to put down beloved animals. Strangely enough the driver in my house, and it isn’t me, has over thirty odd years of driving NEVER hit anything. He has had to stop and pick up animals which have been hit and not that long ago we took a blackbird to the SPCA animal hospital rather than leave it in the flapping in the middle of the road where some so and so left it. So I am well aware how hard killing is, but sometimes you are left with no option. I will say that you picked up on a carelessly chosen word and missed the sentiment.
I was merely conveying that should the much needed, and I would rather it be unbiased in any direction, newspaper doesn’t deliver within it’s 50,000 copies, it will hardly have become an icon and therefore it’s target audience can remove it from the shelf with ease. It will take longer, far longer to lose the likes of the Herald and the Daily Record.
Well said onwards.
A pro indy daily selling very well might just get the other media to change tack. They are businesses afterall.
Cadogan Enwright, Anent the “Carp”, Labour were undoubtedly “Carp” in government & even more “Carp” in opposition! 🙂
David at 2.02
I would imagine a big reason for the launch of an independence supporting newspaper is that the Sunday Herald has in fact hugely increased it sales.
Found this little video. Very interesting.
If OT please move it to wherever you deem it should be.
But if you haven’t already seen this it is well worth watching. The make believers, media bias
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX1hNW_bzAI
Regadding Paul Hutcheon’s blog, I would hope that’s going to be a big story in the Sunday Herald (or The National?).
It’s an obvious Murphy bully-boy tactic. Very much the kind of stunt he would pull in his NUS days.
Anybody read the utter drivel in the Herald on line about unnamed Labour MPs saying the SNP will leave the Smith commission in the huff?
The Herald sinks so low it may well out sink the Daily Record.
I will give the new newspaper a try but frankly I have little hope of anything worthy of journalism , truth and integrity. Besides which it too will be supporting the Herald.
BBC Ceefax Scotland is promoting the RIC Conference today with an expected turnout of around 3,000 (well done, RIC) but seems to have missed Nicola Sturgeon’s rally at the Hydro, the biggest political meeting in UK in years.
A lot of people here don’t seem to understand newspapers. They are not political tracts but very often support one political party or another.
Most of them support the union because their proprietors support the union but bottom line is they are businesses.
If ,say, the Monster Raving Loonies, has a huge following somebody would produce a newspaper for them (maybe that’s where the Daily Express comes in)
Newsquest,which owns the Herald and dozens of UK papers, is a part of the US company Gannett which owns hundreds of newspapers across the USA. Sales of the Sunday Herald or the new National do not support the daily Herald. They stand on their own and answer to Newsquest/Gannett on their sales.
OT.Radical Independence Conference LIVE NOW—-GLASGOW.SECC. Clyde Auditorium. SOLD OUT!!
Watch on Independence Livestream.
There will be a lunch break I guess,but the events/speakers will continue until 5pm.
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/RIC2014
Interesting.
On the one hand the newspapers are businesses and it seems they have identfied a “gap in the market”. Odd how that did not occur to them prior to the vote, when it might have done some good, ain’t it? See that “free market”? It always delivers the very bestest outcomes!
On the other hand we are told that newspapers need not be impartial, but rather reflect the views of their editors/proprietors. And of course the proprietors never, ever interfere in editorial decision making. But what of the journalists? They move seamlessly from one paper to another and espouse the editorial line, no matter how different from that of their previous employer. Curiously this is seen as a virtue. It is fostered in debating societies where one must learn to argue a case one does not believe: that is the point. Those debating societies are preparation for Westminster where the main skill is lying in the interests of the party, and that takes practice. Obviously it is the same for journalists and it seems to me that is the most important part of the public school education so valued in this country and so essential to a career in those fields where power resides. The preponderence of public school educated people in parliament, the judciciary and the media is not an accident. Yet those skills are not openly espoused as the main benefit of such an education, along with the “who you know” advantages which are also in play.
We are all complicit: we are easily impressed by practised liars so long as they lie in the accepted way we have come to accept.
While it is good we are to have a pro independence paper, it is clear that it is a consequence of whoring and not of conviction. It is also likely that it comes now because the proprietors believe it will make no practical difference at all except to their balance sheets. I suspect they are right.
I take the view that we must not lose sight of the need for a truly independent media presence: and this is not it.
“While it is good we are to have a pro independence paper, it is clear that it is a consequence of whoring and not of conviction..”
But so what? Gannett have actually made it happen. Of course they will be looking to make a profit.
There are plenty of independent websites online. But printing a daily newspaper would take millions in investment costs, and that just wasn’t happening.
We are finally getting what we wanted and should give it a chance.
Of course it actually has to be WORTH buying, with good content.
But it doesn’t really matter to me that they also own the Herald. They own hundreds of local papers and the popular ones will survive.
testing!