Club membership increases
Posted on
October 11, 2014 by
Chris Cairns
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13 10 14 12:13
Club membership increases - Speymouth
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Kenny: If you need any confirmation [Sheridan] is a good guy, see how he is attacked in dross like the Daily Record. That is a good enough character reference for me!
A good point.
The Greens are pretty radical when it comes to energy, defence, conservation and the economy. I think we would be hard pushed to find a party that meets all our wish list. It was Patrick that argued for a separate Scottish currency. I heard him speak live a couple of times and I didn’t doubt his commitment. I think we would all take a federal solution in the interim because things are looking like they are taking a turn for the distinctly weird in England.
@Muttley 79 .You make the assumption that Tommy Sheridan will lead the Indy movement ( Wrong ) Tommy Sheridan is a part of the Indy movement. I am not a great fan of Tommy but I do recognize that he has put a lot time & effort into the Independance cause,some people find it hard to put their political diffrences aside for the greater good thank christ I dont belong to any political partys nor wish to.
Robert Louis says: 8:55 pm.
Totally agree Robert well said. Independence is the one and only thing we must concentrate on. After we achieve that then all the perfectionists can get on with whatever it is they are trying to create. I won’t be joining them as I am far from perfect, after all I am only human. I just want to live what’s left of my life in a FREE SCOTLAND.
Let’s just keep our eye on the one ball, then we have a chance.
Fred Blogger, thanks for that link, I needed to hear that.
Robert Peffers
No not a surprise. Was just trying to microcosm the issue of the Indy movement with that statement.
I agree with your comments re the snp and think that is why the garner such widespread support from differing points in the political spectrum in Scotland.
Robert Louis: Let’s bitch about our unionist opponents, not those such as Tommy who work so hard to achieve a better fairer Scotland.
An eloquent appraisal.
Whatever Sheridan did in the past considered reckless or self-indulgent the energies he put into attaining self-governance atone for it.
Will Brown, Darling or Cameron be forgiven?
Hi everyone!
Thanks to all the Wingers who made me feel so welcome today at Freedom Square; it was brilliant meeting some of you at last. I think I’ve worked out now it was you Ronnie, who ‘christened’ me with the hairy rope – is that right? My husband says it was a case of holding a wee hairy over a wee scary hairy, but he was careful to say it out of slapping reach.
Had a great time, been looking forward to it for weeks, and don’t hit me muttley but I love Tommy Sheridan! 🙂
Guys, don’t get nasty with each other; we love you, Husker, stay with us. I know exactly how you’ve been feeling. Grousebeater, calm down! Look forward to meeting more of you another day, especially Paula Rose – I can’t wait to see your famous heels.
BTW, there is a parable about the workers in the vineyard who got shirty because the latecomers got paid the same as them, not to mention the jealous older brother of the prodigal son . . .
And I refuse to get cross with anyone except Plodmore, even if you have a go at me for quoting religious stuff, so there.
Ronnie, I can’t stop laughing thinking about you and the snake. My husband has a corn snake which escaped at his school a while ago – took 24 hours to find it and the cleaners threw fifty fits.
xxx
REV will have plenty material after tues debate,scottish devo 1230 pm to 7pm
looking forward to interventions when gordon brown,george Galloway speak
We all know the YES campaign rocked the british state, so it should be no surprise that they will continue trying to beat us down, by msm and spineless politicians.
Character assassination is pretty much run of the mill for the msm, expect another media storm of doom, gloom and monsters in our midst.
One_Scot
same here, she spoke for me as well, she got it all.
logically we should have walked it.
reconciliation with that and the actual loss is difficult to come to terms with.
my head and heart are as resolute as ever.
the pressure on “them” must continue, we live in very interesting times.
the UK BT fought to save imo is no more, destroyed in their last minute panic to save it.
we stand firm and the r.uk is left in isolated chaos, because the people of scotland refuse to be a political part of it, you’ll see.
I was at the square today and it was a conveyor belt of happy smiling faces so there could easily have been over 10,000 coming and going. Re-freshing to come back on after the second half 1-0 down knowing there is still all to play for.
An American Wolf in George Square
http://tinyurl.com/njc8f58
Enjoy 🙂
Was at the rally today, great turnout and great speakers,especially Mhari Black (20). Never thought I’d see myself standing in George Square booing Labour, but that’s what they have done to us. One great point made was Murphy having claimed £1 million in expenses in the past seven years. In seven months we have the power to kick some of these chancers off their gravy train. Something I’m so looking forward to.
Gordon Brown accuses David Cameron of being ‘unstatesmanlike’.
Gordon Brown told anyone who would listen that transplant operations would be under threat if Scotland voted ‘Yes’. Rev Stu secured point-blank rebuttal of that lie on the same day it was issued. Brown has yet to acknowledge his ‘error’, let alone apologise for any distress it caused.
We’re in the fucking Twilight Zone…
@Robert Louis
“Tommy Sheridan is just one of MANY who will take the independence movment forward. Some people don’t like Salmond, some don’t like Harvie, some don’t like Tommy.You know, we all know people we maybe aren’t keen on in life, but we just get on, and that’s what we need to do to achieve independence. We are all different, and all have different backgrounds and talents. Let’s bitch about our unionist opponents, not those such as Tommy who work so hard to achieve a better fairer Scotland”.
Totally agree!
Was at the rally today, not far from the Wings banners as it happens, what a great experience!
There are those who said we should have laid down after the 18th, and given up – we didn’t and we never will – today was a great example of how we’re not going away.
Whoever it is, Salmond, Sillars, Sheridan, Harvie, Sturgeon – we should be together on this – we have one common goal.
Our next aim has to be, as was said today by Pat Lee – “No More Labour!” at the 2015 GE. Some great speakers and bands – Mhairi Black was brilliant and so was the wee lassie that sang Caledonia.
Good turnout and a great day!
Tommy seems to be like marmite, now we get down to it, post referendum. When I was out on the newsthreads pre ref. correcting the nawbags, the detractors of the FM – TS came up a few times, and as I felt it my duty to correct everybody (you get like that, day after day)I always said, he’s not perfect, BUT, in this debate I would far rather him on my side, for the numbers he can motivate and bring with him, than have him outside the tent etc. That usually shut folk up. It goes back to the that “bus” analogy – you need a lot of different folks on the bus, doing away, to get to your destination, some will jump off or on, but when you get to the destination, there will be folk heading in other directions to get on other buses.
@fred blogger
Although I arrived at the square at 11:15 I missed that inspiring speech you posted. As others have stated very few (other than ronnie & co) were likely to stay in the square for 7 hours or so.
I’m sorry to have missed it live but happy enough with the other memories.
The referendum and disgrace of the media will not be forgotten soon.
Alex Clark says:
12 October, 2014 at 6:56 pm
at alex
A Small plea, I’m not here to lecture as I have been as guilty as anyone since the referendum result.
Getting into petty spats and in reality lowering the tone of the type of conversations and discussions here that were once an inspiration prior to the referendum is a mistake that I and others have made.
I’m sure I’m not alone,
you are not Alex, you are a better man than me
my apologies for the spat the other night
yours
as ever
Schrodingers cat
On a completely different note, I have just been watching a very interesting debate on the economic case for an indy Scotland:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg70QdhZ1Uw
I had to laugh when some duffer (I think he was a No voter) was trying to labour some point over interest rates v borrowing costs, UK in the past, blah blah blah…. and Michelle Thomson said, to much applause: “The UK economy is a drowning elephant — do we really want to peg ourselves to that?”
Let us hope Labour in Scotland will also be a drowning elephant…
Re Tommy – every saint has a past, every sinner has a future. Tommy is on board for the full indy haul, however long it takes. He has done a lot for the cause in recent months in particular. He is not the enemy. We know who they are. Let us reserve our scorn and criticism for them.
“I make no apology for saying Sheridan is exactly the wrong person to take the independence movement onwards. ”
what makes you think there is only one person who can and was is and will be for leading this movement forward
tommy sheridan is only one cog in the wheel
we are all cogs in this wheel
@schrodingers cat
Cheers mr cat, but don’t get me greeting 🙂
Was at the rally myself today in “freedom square” and the most lasting memory is that labour will struggle to rely on Scotland for support in the coming GE
How wonderful if the uninformed, the ill-informed, and the sheer terrified, had voted Yes.
We could have had a nation state like Evo Morales, where natural resources are put at the disposal of the poor – now fallen to about ‘one in five’ from a figure once over 80% of the Bolivian population.
It seems certain he will be elected soon to a third term of office with a strong socialist agenda, fervently anti-capitalist, yet against all predictions his country’s economic growth has risen by 5% a year.
Even the USA is impressed.
Genuine democracy is everywhere practised. Voting is mandatory. The state is its own booming economy. The poor feel part of the nation, key to its economy.
“We won’t Evo. Nobody gave us anything before.” (Guardian quote)
This fight is about civil rights.
The ‘movement’ has gone well beyond mere party-politics. The British state has exposed itself – we now know exactly what we’re up against, and there is no excuse not to fight.
We have been humiliated, deceived, impoverished and intimidated for decades, but it wasn’t until the fortnight prior to Sep 18th that it became impossible for even the thickest to ignore. Our weakest, most vulnerable citizens were openly terrorised by colluding MSM/government agencies, and there was precious little we could do to stop it.
The abuse of Scotland’s people and resources has become intolerable, and it’s down to us to stop it – no-one else will do it for us.
the ssp taken to task by the NOTW
they descended into infighting
but let us not lose focus of the real villains in this episode
the notw, which has since dissolved and andy coulson is now in jail
sheridans conviction was base on these peoples testimony
it isnt worth toilet paper, sheridan will clear his name
but the ssp was trashed by a red top, remember that
the infighting in the ssp was caused by a newspaper who reputation was so bad it is now folded
let us not lose sight of who the real criminals here, it wasnt fox or sheridan, it was our common enemy, the british msm, and we have all been victims of these people
know your enemy
our enemy is the british media
not tommy sheridan, or anyone who supports indy
Ian: This fight is about civil rights. The abuse of Scotland’s people and resources has become intolerable, and it’s down to us to stop it – no-one else will do it for us.
And with that laudable cri de coeur I can get back to work. Many thanks, ian.
We have been humiliated, deceived, impoverished and intimidated for decades, but it wasn’t until the fortnight prior to Sep 18th that it became impossible for even the thickest to ignore. Our weakest, most vulnerable citizens were openly terrorised by colluding MSM/government agencies, and there was precious little we could do to stop it.
The abuse of Scotland’s people and resources has become intolerable, and it’s down to us to stop it – no-one else will do it for us
fighting talk mr brotherhood, i have personal experience of what you say
i saw a wee wify in tears in a village in fife, had been doorsteped bt the bt mob 2 days earlier, threatened to drop by on sept the 19th and relieve her of her pension book
what mr brotherhood says is not a conspiracy theory, it is the truth, i have seen it with my own eyes
regardless of where your politics lie……..this is so, so, wrong
“no-one else will do it for us.”
………..I am still here……..
YES , like Valerie , we all need to ” stay on da bus”. ……… Sing along !
I feel the need to remind oorsels of the pleasure this site has given us all . There are hunners o folk who read the headlines & posts .
I for one have burst oot laughing on hunners o times . It’s been a joy .
I confess that I have never voted Labour in my 50 years o voting , but my ” young loon” Tory tendencies have mellowed towards the Centre and may even be leaning to the left thanks to the reasoned postings on here .
I have had a bit of fun on other sites debunking the Naw bags ! This fun is insignificant to the fun etc that you all bring to this site .
Sadly the last week or so has been , at times ………… ” stuck for words ”
Perhaps we are all missing the Rev posting new subjects which leaves us wandering O/T
It would be good to think any new visitors on here would become as engaged as we all are and maybe their political view can be enlightened and like me , educated .
Margaret Curran calls home a luxury house in Glasgow’s leafy south side. The property, worth around £650,000 is a world away from the kind of housing used by most of her would-be constituents in the city’s deprived East End. She again told voters after a campaign launch that she had lived in the city’s East End ‘all her life’. But the claim has been exposed as untrue after it emerged that she has actually lived in a far more affluent part of the city for several years. The disclosure has sparked accusations from election rivals that Mrs Curran cannot be trusted to tell the truth to voters.
http://caltonjock.com/2014/10/12/margaret-curran-engages-mouth-before-brain-and-its-painful-for-the-viewer/
What is the reaction to the new teenage voters who I presume post on Twitter and Facebook. Do they still debate in the schools? I’d like to know what they think of politicians who have lied, bullied, threatened, pleaded, pledged and vowed all to get their vote. Enough to put them off politics for life.
Ian Brotherhood
very powerfully put.
Went to Hope demo at Square.Excellent contribution from all.Many thanks to all speakers and artistes.
Got feeling this is the real beginning of campaign.Reminded me of demos I stumbled into 20 odd years ago in Quito and La Paz when indigenous people started agitating against European/American elite.It was like David v Goliath.
Now they have Corea and Morales in power who are almost revolutionaries,anti establishment.
I came away with probably more hope than before indyref.This seems more real.2015 GE could accelerate this rapidly.
Just been watching the footage from George Square today…. Why does it remind me of the independence movement in the Baltic nations in the late 1980s….. they were sat upon by the evil empire…. until the evil empire suddenly collapsed a couple of years later…..
Great day taking back our square, not a butchers apron in sight and you have to remind yourself that this is the heart of what Labour considers to be their patch. Not one of them would have lasted two minutes there today, not one! Oor skwerr noo!
@dakk
The 2015 GE is only target number one! but a big target none the less. I hope all the YES supporters will be voting SNP unless there are areas where SNP strategically stand done to offer a “better” candidate a chance.
In 2016 HE all parties in in with a shout, hopefully the pro-indy parties will win massively.
@Ian Brotherhood
Well said, hits the nail on the head me, never bow down to those that proclaim themselves as your Imperial Masters.
On the subject of collapsing empires, I also had to laugh at the description given to the UK economy by Michelle Thomson of BfS: “a drowning elephant” we do not want to be tagged to. Interesting, without our oil and whisky exports, the rUK trade deficit, already dire, would double! So much for the much vaunted UK’s “knowledge economy”, not much knowledge in George Osborne’s head, I’m afraid, let alone that midget of economic thinking, Dougie Alexander.
I saw the death of the Scottish Labour Party in George Square today. Suicide is perhaps a better description. They just handed our resources, our poor and vulnerable and all of us back to the money men of London by giving a Scottish face to a Tory campaign.
To protect their own positions in the great imperial and loyal British Labour Party and its dreams of winning in Tory Kent and Sussex they sold Scotland. I didn’t hear the people at the Rally today disliking Labour. I heard them despising it (and the Daily Record).
What an uplifting experience. It was a privilege to stand in George Square today and to know, as I watched young person after young person on the stage commit to independence, that my 55 years in the SNP have not been wasted.
And devo max? Forget it. The train has already left on that one. This is about independence and none of our young folk are swallowing the devolution mince.
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it yet again – Nothing can succeed, (except a budgie wi nae teeth), like an idea whose time has come. The idea of Scottish independence has been a long, long time coming. Believe me folks it has arrived here now.
I was standing at the barrier of the stage with other wingers when Tommy Sheridan opened the days events. Specifically he said how Scotland must rid herself of the Blue Tories and the Red Tories.
Got the biggest cheer for that from the pro-indy crowd. Never forget a great deal of that pro-indy crowd were now ex-labour, dead parrot labour. Nobody votes for dead parrots.
Any labour cooncillor watching on their day off from the chambers across the square will now be wringing their hands or maybe phoning a friend.
Problem, they now have no friends. GIRFUY
@Alex Clark
Ye I’m not fixated with 2015 GE,though I’ll def vote SNP.It can take time for ideas to sink into peoples consciousness if they’ve already been conditioned.
The YES movement looks strong and increasingly visible and with more austerity coming it will attract more converts.Just as there was a delayed reaction to the Iraq war,there may be one to the lying and bullying of the BT indyref campaign.
@ Tackety Beets, 11;02pm
I have had a bit of fun on other sites debunking the Naw bags ! This fun is insignificant to the fun etc that you all bring to this site .
Sadly the last week or so has been , at times ………… ” stuck for words ”
Perhaps we are all missing the Rev posting new subjects which leaves us wandering O/T
As my other half has said to me, yessers are still angry, aggrieved and feeling more than hurt and bruised by the result of the referendum after a long campaign that was seriously hard work, but, incredibly uplifting and joyous.
It was a shock and some of the reactions are a bit like recovering from concussion; thoughts firing off in all directions until they finally come together and make sense.
Also, you are right, on this site we have not had on a regular basis the glue which holds it together as the Rev takes a well-deserved break. See, you are missed Stu!
The Yes campaign is, however, gathering itself up and moving forward with enthusiasm as can be seen from the gatherings and meetings which have taken place since the referendum.
Folks on this site are adjusting too and normal service is resuming. Look at the posts this evening about carrying on working together all that peace breaking out in the posts. 🙂
I have no doubt that Wings will continue to be our “place to go”.
70515
7th May 2015, the date of the General Election.
I think 70515 has a certain ring to it!
Naomi on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPhRmcOBuH4
sunday herald
Seems to be kidding us on ,pretends to be for Scotland but sneaks in division and negativity in almost every written topic (like some on here),one last chance next Sun.
Tommy was stitched up by the Establishment, they wanted him and SSP destroyed,SSP was taking too many votes from Labour and Establishment hate anything called Socialist.
Hope you can click on this and see 4 of my best pics from the Sqerr this aft….
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/q21pf1bie7qlm93/AAC4zNk4HLuL1R-Qby9NuLzKa
Wow just read that link to calton jock about Margaret Curran – what a litany of filth she has left in her wake. I always thought she was bitchy, but she has went even further down in my estimation. When you read this kind of crap, it is absolutely imperative that this woman is removed! How the f**k can you possibly run up c.£170k in expenses in a year????? Going between Glasgow and Edinburgh, even allowing for other jaunts etc? Beggars belief. Also, it points yet again to Glasgow City Council as a rotten borough for the poor residents – cheated out of decent representatives who seem to think its their birthright to have a seat there 🙁
From Scotsman: “NIGEL Farage has said Ukip would prop up a minority Conservative government if David Cameron agreed to a “full, free and fair” referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union.”
Also: “THE UK Independence Party will target up to a dozen safe Labour seats at Westminster as part of a “rust belt” general election strategy in working-class parts of Scotland that have lost heavy industry and seen major job losses.”
Divide and conquer – in reverse perhaps! Could be good for 70515.
Read that Scotsman article about the seats Farage is targetting. It’s like the top 10 list that even a big SNP percent like 48% is unlikely to win – without help.
For me, the 70515 target isn’t 20 SNP seats, or 30, or even 40 pro-indy seats. It’s the whole caboodle, the full monty, all 59 of them.
Mmm, back to work with a smile on my face. I’m getting excited.
@Valerie
Good pics esp 45%my arse!
Mgt Curran, and all the other Labour MPs, will have to go, for being too arrogant and ignorant to warrant a place as a Scottish representative. Being ignorant is no crime. That can be remedied by (free) education. But arrogance is a fatal flaw. Its dictionary meaning is “not asking questions”. Which means that ignorance can never be remedied. Vote them out!
Can I just point out again that the Sunday Herald is a newspaper, not a YES or SNP broadsheet. It will regularly print stuff from the other side.
And it would lose all credibility as a newspaper if it did not comment strongly on any SNP cock up for instance.
You cannot complain about “lack of balance” in most of the media and then demand lack of balance from the Sunday Herald.
Neither Tom Gordon or Paul Hutcheon are independence supporters. They are staff writers at the Herald and Sunday Herald
The story in today’s Sunday Herald about Nicola and Peter is fair comment (though I very much doubt if Gordon got it from high SNP sources as he claims)
Luigi, Flower of Scotland, scotspine1@sky.com, Kenny, Robert Louis and others who have supported Tommy Sheridan, I agree with you.
Tommy Sheridan took a principled stand during the independence campaign.
Unlike Sillars and Harvey, he didn’t attack the SNP at every opportunity or bait. He made it clear that the referendum was about independence and not about the SNP.
Who is egoistic – Alan Grogan who has gone back to supporting Labour to keep the SNP out, Patrick Harvey whose Greens are to contest every Scottish seat in 2015 or Sheridan who has advocated a vote for the SNP in 2015 to further the independence cause?
muttley79, Sheridan had served his sentence BEFORE the referendum campaign. Could you point out what he has done wrong during the campaign and since the referendum?
Divide and rule is what the unionist establishment wants and always gets.
Aye there are loads of folk who want to be British.But most of them are boring bastards.And incontinent.
I cant believe Alan Grogan has gone back to supporting Labour??? After all the greeting and chest beating about how badly they have let him down etc???
@Capella – that placard said on the other side “Ruth – where is my postal vote”
Also saw a placard “Johann Lamont ate my hamster”
Also quite a few fracking ones, as well as save Kobane 🙁
yesindyref2,
“For me, the 70515 target isn’t 20 SNP seats, or 30, or even 40 pro-indy seats. It’s the whole caboodle, the full monty, all 59 of them.”
Yes, working all out for all 59 seats must be our task now.
But we can only do it as a Yes Alliance. Or in its absence, tactical voting, with WOS providing the guidance per constituency.
Tommy Sheridan may well be able to defeat Ian Davidson in Glasgow, the SNP almost certainly not.
@ Valerie
The creativity of the Yessers !
By all accounts it was an energising experience. I hope there will be some videos of speeches to share. The next rally that I know about is Edinburgh in early November and Inverness is hosting an event soon but I don’t know the date.
The inglorious NO cities of Edinburgh and Aberdeen need to get organised and also Highland Region including the SNP voting Western Isles! What happened there?
Plenty to be doing before St Andrews night!
@ Dave McEwan Hill
You say the sunday herald is a newspaper not a YES broadsheet , 04/05/14 front page of sunday herald .
SUNDAY HERALD
SAYS
YES
Thats why we buy/bought it thats why it has grown 111% ,if it has stopped being `pro` YES it should bloody say so and then I can save myself £1.30 because it is not exactly a great read.
BBC on now How the Campain was won 1.30am
So I’m deliberately trying to stifle hope, am I? And I’m ‘Morag’, as if that’s not my name?
Well, ‘Grouse Beater’, who are you? Others have accused you of dissembling, of presenting a false persona and deliberately stirring up trouble in the past. You’ve been extremely careful to conceal your identity, so who knows.
You’ve claimed to have been in a senior position in the BBC, and to have left without a pension after various disagreements. It was always somebody else’s fault from what I remember.
You claimed to have been party to early meetings of Yes Scotland but again to have walked away because the people involved didn’t meet with your approval. All of that might even be true for all I know. If so, it’s a pity you didn’t hang in there and try to influence (I can say that now, I lost a previous post where I tried to say the same thing) the decisions being made.
But hey, we have no idea at all who you are or whether anything you say is true.
Everybody knows who I am, or if they don’t they can easily find out. I’ve posted under my full name here, when Ian had his “use your real name” campaign. I’ve written about what I’ve done in the campaign from time to time, and it’s easily verified – not least by the various people I met up with in the effort to get the WBBs distributed. The WBB that acknowledges me as someone who helped with its production. I’ve exchanged emails with a good few people who post here.
Come to that, I’ve met a lot of Wings people at various get-togethers. I know them by sight, and to talk to, and they know me. Can you say the same? Has “Grouse Beater” ever identified himself at any gathering? Have you given Ronnie a hug?
Far from trying to stifle hope, I’ve been trying to show people that there’s plenty to be optimistic about in the reality of where we are, and that we don’t need to make up exaggerated stories about numbers and so on. I was pointing out that the actual turnout today was very good indeed, and that inflated projections were causing unnecessary disappointment. You on the other hand were busy laying into a new poster with nasty and quite uncalled for accusations.
Now we’re all still a bit raw and liable to go off on one. No doubt I’ve done it myself. But I’ve had enough of your attitude, and it’s not a new thing either. So do us a favour. If you want Stu to appoint you as guardian of the purity of Wings posters, start by introducing yourself as a real, identifiable person.
“@schrodingers cat” at 10.53 pm
But, Cat, are you really really still here??
You don’t sound quite like your old self. Are you poorly? Maybe a fluff ball stuck in the gob? Why, over the past couple of days, have you started to post as “schrodingers cat’ rather than under your original, delightful and grammatically-correct tag “Schrödinger’s Cat” ? Correct me if I’m wrong, but last time you posted under the latter name was at 3.30 p.m. on 8th October in ‘The Way Ahead’ string. Why change? Have you been spayed, or what? Very sloppy and very poor form, if you ask me..
(and apologies if it’s just me but, as the saying goes, just ‘cos I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after me.)
@ Morag
I am an optimist. I always see the glass as half full. I know that the consensus is that pessimists are more in touch with reality. The glass really is half empty. Nevertheless, that is how I get by.
But I value your realistic assessment of what the possibilities are. You are much more experienced in these matter than me. So don’t let Grouse Beater, whoever he is, divert you.
Bella Caledonia has an interesting post on the idea of UDI, guaranteed to inflame many posters.But worth a visit I think
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/10/12/the-case-for-scotland-making-a-unilateral-declaration-of-independence-in-may-2015/#comment-112810
@ ronnie anderson
I take it next week the BBC will have a program `How the Campaign was Lost`
45% of Scots do not think the Campaign was Won.They either do not realise how biased this sounds or they just do not care .
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/10/08/smith-and-the-subsidy-myth-makers/
More grist to the mill.
We have to, somehow, convey the facts to the voting public. The broadcast and press media are universally unionist. That means they lie. Any ideas on how to let people know what the true situation is?
Oops! I used to post in the Guardian but gave up for several reasons, mostly switching to the Herald full time. CiF was going downhill with the Unionists. But I’ve looked occasionally and it’s gone down even more, worse than the Scotsman at times. That’s antagonistic, pretty nasty fierce stuff. Only the tough survive! The Herald where I post (Peter Piper) is a dawdle, there’s at least 2 or 3 dozen good pro-indy posters there, we outnumber the unionists by maybe 10 to 1. Upvotes at least 3 to 1, most of the unionist ones are “guest votes”.
You can check to see people’s profiles on the Guardian, rather than me giving URLs, by searching on Guardian followed by the moniker, and see their profiles and what they posted there. You might get two links, one for a signon, the other for the public profile, you want a link of the form: …./profile/grousebeater/public
e.g. search for
guardian grousebeater
guardian heedtracker
guardian SinnAonaichte
guardian dadsarmy (that was me)
guardian muttley (I thnk he’s up to mark 6 by now!)
people get barred at times, and sign-up with a new moniker, so some might not show recent postings.
Just saying, like! To be perfectly honest I have nothing but respect for those hardy few who stick it out on the antagonistic particularly London-based, media forums. All power to their elbow.
@Cappella, you and I were posting at the same time on that Bella article! Almost the same sentiments too! Our bloody State Broadcaster!
@Rock
You are wrong to say that Allan Grogan is “still supporting Labour”
All night I’ve talked about sticking together rather than sowing division. Please don’t post ignorant statements, unless of course that is your purpose in being here. If that is the case? Then fuck off.
https://twitter.com/allangrogan/status/515272619512590336
https://twitter.com/allangrogan/status/516650062521565184
Glad to see Alan Grogan not going back to Labour then, but a bit disappointed in him saying that he can’t/won’t join Labour, as he is not about Nationalism. That comment misrepresents SNP’s objective re. independence. I totally get if he can’t get along with their policies etc., but not for that reason. I’m saying that because in his other Tweet, he talks about the poor etc., and it is very clear that the SNP have done an awful lot for the vulnerable.
Every person who reads Wings should refer to those two tweets above. For why?
Simply to see through the pish that people will write whether through ignorance or malevolence, it is unacceptable and we should all be aware of who and exactly what is posted.
If the Rev taught you one thing, it was check your facts!
@Morag Kerr. You of all people on this site have no need to justify yourself to anybody,most of us know you have a analytical mind & this site is all the better for it,dont let people who dont know you wind you up,as Alex Clarke says the sniping on here should stop,we have more to consentrate on in the coming months. Big Hugs to You Morag xx.
Alex Clark,
“You are wrong to say that Allan Grogan is “still supporting Labour”
Allan Grogan has been reported as saying that a vote for the SNP in 2015 will let the Tories in. Are you denying that?
With or without a Labour card, that is pure Labour speak.
I have no interest in sowing division. Before reading about Grogan’s anti-SNP stance, I had commented that he and other non-SNP pro independence should be part of a Yes Alliance fielding single candidates in 2015.
This website doesn’t belong to you so mind your language, especially when making false accusations.
sorry, that should have read – wont join SNP – need to get to bed now!
@Valerie
Then it is the wider movements job to “educate” him that it’s not about Nationalism. A leopard doesn’t change it’s spots overnight.
But who is to say that you are right!
We are all allowed to come to our our conclusions. I’d say that is the whole fucking point.
Sorry for the sweary word, but helps to emphasise what I’m saying. No one is perfect, not even Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon.
@Rock
No point telling me “Allan Grogan has been reported as saying that a vote for the SNP in 2015 will let the Tories in”
I have no idea if that is true or not. I supplied you with links to the source when the man himself cut up his Labour membership card.
You ya prick are making the false accusations so you can fuck right off. Diddy.
And its a good morning from me folks of to bed catch you’s all in the updraft.
@Rock
Did you bother even reading the link to the second tweet from Allan Grogan I posted. Nah I doubt it.
Labour anti “Tory” apart from love-ins
SNP anti Tory
Why do the labour party think they are the only party that can stop the Tories?
Labour loosing in England, SNP winning in Scotland can still bring a majority agains the Tories and bring a massive advantage to Scotland. Don’t let the Labour party full us again.
Rock
Do you mean this from https://www.facebook.com/labourforindependence
“Conservatives:Vote UKIP get Labour
Labour: Vote SNP, SSP, Green get the Tories..
I would love to see a party say.. vote for us because we are you, we listen to you, we will take care of you… We are YOU!”
If that’s what you mean, read the last sentence again, and note the : after the two parties. He’s saying that’s what THEY say. It’s not what he says.
@yesindyref2
What you haven’t giving is LFI’s last statement from that facebook page. It is this:
Thank you to everyone who attended Labour for Independence Forward Planning meeting in Glasgow yesterday. We had delegates from throughout Scotland, the Highlands to Dumfries and Galloway.
Throughout the meeting all views were heard and several options were presented to the floor. Below are the approved decisions made unanimously within the meeting.
Labour for Independence will continue as a campaign and educational organisation. We will be a home for people who seek to discuss and see a return to real Labour values within the political system. Membership of other political parties are not a barrier to inclusion.
As a campaign group we will still support the pursuit of Scottish Independence and will also support our core values such as removal of nuclear weapons, and fighting against austerity. As a place for education we will hold meetings nationally every 3 months which we will engage in political discussion and processes.
The group will welcome people from any political parties and none, who share similar values to ourselves. We will rename the group at our first meeting in January 2015.
The Executive Committee of Labour for Independence will be disbanded, in it’s place will be a 4 person steering committee which will have gender balance. The appointments will be rotated annually. You will not have to be a member of the Labour Party to be in this committee. The first people elected to the committee will be decided in January 2015
Our Facebook page and Twitter will remain, However our Facebook account may need to be changed depending on name changes. We will also maintain our website which again may require a change of name. None of this will change before January and we will keep everyone fully aware of any changes occurring.
Please continue to visit our social media in order to be kept aware of any upcoming developments.
Thank you for your continued support.
Never jump to conclusions and most certainly do not believe anything you might read on twitter, facebook, a blog. Even here.
From the Herald, Labour membership in Scotland last reported at 13,000 and dropping, probably faster after the surge in SNP membership.
Meanwhile Green at 6,300 and rising. Maybe they could overtake Labour on the way down, and even Conservative at 12,000 destination unknown with UKIP on the way, and become the second largest party in Scotland.
Does that mean, if their number of MSPs were also the second largest group in Holyrood, they’d be forced to be the opposition? I can just visualise FMQ:
(Patrick) “Nicola, we in the Green party want Independence, what is the position of the SNP on this?”
(Nicola) “Patrick, our position is we in the SNP want Independence, what is the Green position on this?”
Repeat until Tricia Marwick gets bored.
Alex
My point was that it WASN’T Alan Grogan who said “don’t vote SNP it’ll let the Tories in”, it was said about what LABOUR had said. To spell it out, LABOUR are saying “Don’t vote SNP etc. it’ll let the Tories in”.
People don’t fucking read!
@yesindyref2
No, I got your point and thank you.
Just wanted to emphasise it so as there could be NO mistake.
I am completely fed up with the shite being thrown at the so called left wing of the Pro-Indy groups.
It is garbage, nothing has changed about our attitudes though it appears that their is a lot of manipulative bullshit going on in order to change certain attitudes towards the Greens and SSP in Particular.
How do I know this, must be because of my bat ears. Else I’m just making it up and would be better off in Broadmoor.
Once more let’s not fall for it. You all have eyes and ears, open them.
Alex
OK, sorry, I misunderstood – I thought you were having a go at me!
Yes, and the Unionists are laughing laughing laughing, because people are not reading, not looking at what is said, and jumping to conclusions. As a result, everyone from Sheridan to Alex Salmond is being cast as being against Independence, or a right-wing Tory with purple armpits and antlers on their head, tuned in to Radio Flaming Mars! Presumably deep fried. And then posting that, tweeting it, facebooking it and a misread sentence becomes a weel known fact and the end of the universe as we know it.
Please everyone, read things twice, make sure you understand what’s being said, before going off on one and accusing people of being anti-SNP, anti-SSP, anti Indy, and apart from that, being a thoroughly nasty piece of work to go with it.
You may not have noticed this, but Labour (that’s L-A-B-O-U-R) are genuinely falling apart before our eyes. Won’t be long now.
As it says on the tin.
Wings Over Scotland : soaring above Scottish politics
I have a “CRI DE COUR”
Grouse Beater wind yer neck in
from the outset I suspected your motives and asked where you suddenly appeared from when you popped up here,
You seem very keen to make sure everyone knows just how intelligent you are and VERY keen to point out others shortcomings
But the of course being an ex (yawn) BBC exec, we should be grateful for your insightful comments,
but really your just a patronising bully, the Telegraph is that way —>.
My name? oh its John King pleased to meet you Mr Beater.
DISCUSS
@john king
Now I’m wanting to get involved in another petty spat, nut if I remember correctly has told us he lives in the same street as J.K>Rowling.
Is that true Grouse Beater and if so did you hand deliver a Wee Blue Book to her door. I really hope you did but if not why the fuck not.
You know something, I could tolerate your posts, just upto the referendum. See now, YOU are the most divisive person on this site. Now that is just MY opinion, I’m sure you will have plenty supporters.
I look forward to hearing from you and them 🙂
Oh just so as you know grouse, can I call you Grouse?
I wont be responding for the next 12 hours because I cant get onto wings at work but I’m sure that wont trouble you one little bit as the only opinion that means anything to you is your own.
I suspect Mr Grouse Beater, as was certainly the case with Mr GoldenAyr (where he?,) partakes of modified fruit juice and his demeanor on this Blog varies in proportion to that.
Morning posts may reflect the residual from the previous.
At least you know what to expect from the Brotherhood, as he counts the tine down as he opens them.
🙂
TINS, FEKIN TINS!
BUGGER!
I have to add, re Grousie, that on his game, he can be erudite.
Who has not, if they have railed against the system, not a little plooky chipn on the shoulder, right or left.
If he, could squeeze the pus out, would be welcome at one of Paula Rose’s candle-lit soirées. I am certain of that.
re Grousie
I’m sure he’s capable of defending himself against what? Two minor Wingers, one unemployed (me) the other in a call centre.
Bring it on Mr Big BBC ExeC Man living in the same street as JaKey Rollup I say.
Morag: So I’m deliberately trying to stifle hope, am I?
Temper, temper.
I welcome and praise anybody who sees hope and practical good sense in self-governance. To see resolve expressed is a boost to my confidence as well as others. I’m grateful to find a fellow traveller.
As other posters have said of late, we’re privy to bizarre assertions from newcomers that hold no water, some natural disappointment at the result of the Referendum, others firing scatter guns, insistent those who voted Yes got it wrong, and why people like me are idiots who ‘lost the Referendum,’ guilty of exaggerating numbers.
If he sends abusive e-mails or posts abuse character assessment is proved correct. Happily, there are many here who are positive in the ideas they exchange and those I search out to discover how they see the world.
@yesindyref2 says: 13 October, 2014 at 12:14 am:
“I think 70515 has a certain ring to it!”
I thought the SNP membership had gone above 70515!
Oh! Wait a mo – that’s not what you’re saying.
For clarity he described himself as an Ex Executive. Don’t think I’d ever like to find myself there an exex cant be much further doon the lavvy to go after that.
Alex: I am completely fed up with the shite being thrown at the so called left wing of the Pro-Indy groups.
Now you sound like me, tetchy, and for the same reason.
Amazing images yesterday of the hope over fear rally, 6K plus just brilliant. 🙂
Not the end, just the beginning right enough. 😉
@Grouse Beater
You don’t read all your fan mail then? You are deluded, as is obvious from the above posts many regulars do not trust you.
Just for clarity, I’ve always thought of you as a total arsehole and one who could never be trusted. But I only speak for myself.
You have made your own bed and it was not of my making.
@Scot Finlayson says: 13 October, 2014 at 12:16 am:
“Tommy was stitched up by the Establishment, they wanted him and SSP destroyed,SSP was taking too many votes from Labour and Establishment hate anything called Socialist.”
Got it in one, Scot Finlayson. Anyone claiming otherwise is blinding themself to the simple fact that some who were sworn witness’ at Tommy’s trial for perjury were themselves then undetected perjurers and they were not SSP members but leading figures in the Westminster Establishment.
The trouble is some SSP members cannot, even now, admit to themselves they were being used by the Establishment to do the Establishments’s work.
I remember Dick Gaughan and myself questioning Grousebeater’s credentials on here, but I became convinced he was genuine enough.
Having individual fall outs – see the famous Peoples Front of Judea thread – doesn’t stop people from wanting independence.
“Forking tines” would have been funnier Bugger… 🙂
BtP: TINS, FEKIN TINS!
Chuckle! In the city of angels for the first time I asked the store assistant which shelf she kept tins of beans. Cue, an expression of incredulity. ‘Tins?’ What the hell is a tin? Ah, she said, you mean can of beans.
Just wondering like, but an annual Hope over Fear day? Something along the lines of a celebration of self determination? Political talking shops, all party, no party representation, music, food etc. A celebration of hope over fear in the shape of a carnival as opposed to a rally. A fixed place which could be used for an event, a place to be used to welcome new converts. More importantly a way of staying in the public consciousness. I’m sure someone has thought of this.
Just the beginning. 🙂
@Capella says:13 October, 2014 at 12:44 am:
“Good pics esp 45%my arse! I’ll second that praise, Capella, and add that in, “Valerie”, we have a natural photographer. As to Mags Curran, is she any better, or any worse, than the rest of the Westminster Maffiosa?
1. Alex Clark says:
at alex
A Small plea, I’m not here to lecture as I have been as guilty as anyone since the referendum result.
Getting into petty spats and in reality lowering the tone of the type of conversations and discussions here that were once an inspiration prior to the referendum is a mistake that I and others have made.
I’m sure I’m not alone,
1. Alex Clark says:
@Rock
Did you bother even reading the link to the second tweet from Allan Grogan I posted. Nah I doubt it.
1. Alex Clark says:
@Rock
No point telling me “Allan Grogan has been reported as saying that a vote for the SNP in 2015 will let the Tories in”
I have no idea if that is true or not. I supplied you with links to the source when the man himself cut up his Labour membership card.
You ya prick are making the false accusations so you can fuck right off. Diddy.
1. Alex Clark says:
@Valerie
Then it is the wider movements job to “educate” him that it’s not about Nationalism. A leopard doesn’t change it’s spots overnight.
But who is to say that you are right!
We are all allowed to come to our our conclusions. I’d say that is the whole fucking point.
Sorry for the sweary word, but helps to emphasise what I’m saying. No one is perfect, not even Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon.
ronnie anderson says:
@Morag Kerr. You of all people on this site have no need to justify yourself to anybody,most of us know you have a analytical mind & this site is all the better for it,dont let people who dont know you wind you up,as Alex Clarke says the sniping on here should stop,we have more to consentrate on in the coming months. Big Hugs to You Morag xx.
yesindyref2 says:
Alex
My point was that it WASN’T Alan Grogan who said “don’t vote SNP it’ll let the Tories in”, it was said about what LABOUR had said. To spell it out, LABOUR are saying “Don’t vote SNP etc. it’ll let the Tories in”.
People don’t fucking read!
1. Alex Clark says:
@john king
Now I’m wanting to get involved in another petty spat, nut if I remember correctly has told us he lives in the same street as J.K>Rowling.
Is that true Grouse Beater and if so did you hand deliver a Wee Blue Book to her door. I really hope you did but if not why the fuck not.
You know something, I could tolerate your posts, just upto the referendum. See now, YOU are the most divisive person on this site. Now that is just MY opinion, I’m sure you will have plenty supporters.
I look forward to hearing from you and them
I remember Dick Gaughan and myself questioning Grousebeater’s credentials on here, but I became convinced he was genuine enough.
Having individual fall outs – see the famous Peoples Front of Judea thread – doesn’t stop people from wanting independence.
I agree conan, grouse is genuine,
popular front conan, popular front, and dont forget it
@ Cat.
Splitter…
@Robert Peffers
I certainly can’t talk for SSP members from the time to Tommy Sheridans demise.
I only know two, my son and Ian Brotherhood. I guess most people reading this don’t get it but it wasn’t that important to me as to which party to join between the SNP or SSP.
On the 19th I had more or less made my mind up to join the SNP then on the Sat 20th my son totally surprised me by telling me he had joined the SSP!
Why? we discussed this, both of us believed that we could win more of the “THAT STILL VOTE LABOUR” and who voted No to the Yes side by persuading them to support a party that was not the SNP.
Get it now, I really don’t care about the policies of any of the parties only the goal. There is only one goal, I hope the majority here can understand that much.
Alex: I’ve always thought of you as a total arsehole
I recall one of your posts saying, ‘Got you all wrong, Grouse Beater. I apologise.’ I replied, no need to apologise. I realise there’s an initiation ceremony to go through and we are all aiming for independence.’
Anyhow, you’ve made your point, but I’d rather discuss the way forward to another referendum, or how the rise of Ukip might just activate a reaction in Scotland sufficient to tip the balance to a majority Yes.
Then there’s problem of how to keep enthusiasm high in the greatly increased membership of the SNP. Conventional constituency business will soon bore them to death. They need to be doing something cosntructive that moves things forward to the ideal goal.
Those are the issues.
Robert Peffers says:
13 October, 2014 at 8:36 am
@Scot Finlayson says: 13 October, 2014 at 12:16 am:
“Tommy was stitched up by the Establishment, they wanted him and SSP destroyed,SSP was taking too many votes from Labour and Establishment hate anything called Socialist.”
Got it in one, Scot Finlayson. Anyone claiming otherwise is blinding themself to the simple fact that some who were sworn witness’ at Tommy’s trial for perjury were themselves then undetected perjurers and they were not SSP members but leading figures in the Westminster Establishment.
The trouble is some SSP members cannot, even now, admit to themselves they were being used by the Establishment to do the Establishments’s work.
got it in one mr peffer
a good place for the socialists to start would be to put this behind them and reunite
it has been said by many that they would support any indy candidate in the ge regardless of them beinging green, snp or ssp………fine, then that by definition means the snp, because i know of no constituency anywhere in scotland where the greens or ssp would even save there deposit. unless anyone knows different?
I’m holding my breath on this whole Labour will get over run by SNP in the GE mindset.
If we won’t vote YES we’re more than capable of giving Labour another chance when we get the scare story that a vote for the SNP will let the Tories in.
My faith in other voters is not quite that of some of the more positve thinkers on here. There is no chance of another vote on indepence in near future. The only window would be if UK as a whole votes to leave the EU and even then I’m not sure how it can be worked.
I’ve always thought of you as a total arsehole
not good, or clever
Macart: an annual Hope over Fear day?
I like that idea – but I hope it became unnecessary sooner than later, when we regain sovereignty.
@morag regarding grouse beater. Totally agree with you, they have tried to diss. Me too. Since then I have notice quite a few put downs from them, mostly new commentors. I dont know if he has some kind of editorial power via The Rev? If not he is certainly a snide, pompous, condesending arsehole.
I just like the thought of continuing the carnival atmo that large YES gathering brought wherever they appeared in the past couple of years.
More importantly I like the thought of bringing genuine interest and dare I say it fun engagement with politics to people. Politics isn’t just for politician its for us and we decide how it should be conducted.
Now say the idea of a fixed event took off. Instead of a party conference, you’d have a people’s conference where we decide how to talk about our governance and how we want parties to conduct that governance. If we want to have a ‘party’ while we’re at it and a bit of of a celebre, then what’s to stop us? If we want to have fun with our politics and get people engaged then we can do that too. 🙂
Regarding grouse beater. I have been victim his snide, pompous, condesending remarks. Did not bother me, but I dont like it when he turns on new commentors.
Anyhow, you’ve made your point, but I’d rather discuss the way forward to another referendum, or how the rise of Ukip might just activate a reaction in Scotland sufficient to tip the balance to a majority Yes.
Then there’s problem of how to keep enthusiasm high in the greatly increased membership of the SNP. Conventional constituency business will soon bore them to death. They need to be doing something cosntructive that moves things forward to the ideal goal.
Those are the issues.
Actually GB, i was thinking similar thoughts last night, my daughter who, recently joined the snp, was complaining that she hadnt heard back from central office yet. i pointed out the inevitable delay due to so many new members etc, but a thought struck me, for anyone who has been involved in party politics in scotland, a constituency branch meeting usually involves meeting in a little used room above the local pub of between 10-20 people. we now have on average 1000 new snp members per constituency, are they voters, members or activists? what happens when at the next branch meeting, 1000 people turn up?
what the fukc do we do now?
Well deary me I didn’t expect you to lie down Grouse Beater, did you deliver a Wee Blue Book to your neighbour MS Rowling? Did you deliver or hand out any WBB’s?
I’d like to know.
As for you cat, you are someone who will jump on some ones back when you see a weakness, you are both exposed as the two most divisive posters on these threads. Not surprising to me that you gang up together today, you have been at it for days and others have tried to stop you.
Still you won’t be cowed, that’s fine. All of your previous comments, as well as mine are archived, we’ll see who’s stands up to close scrutiny not just waffle off the cuff.
@Macart
How about a ‘hub’ in every town,village and city where YES and most importantly disenchanted NO voters can pop in. If such a café or drop in centre were to offer support regarding prescriptions pick up, help for the elderly with lifts or small jobs then such a place in communities could be so valuable to the independence movement.
Perhaps the scotgov could be approached with a view to small grants to cover overheads. If there are buildings lying empty at the moment, would it not be a good idea to make use of them and at the same time give people who are looking for work a way to use their skills and motivation.
@SC
Hell, SNP central office will probably have swamped with the new membership. It may take them months to reply to tens of thousands of new members. Mrs M being one of them. 🙂
But keeping people together across parties and with no party affiliation is the order of the day. Keeping a popular momentum going. The more we stay together and grow as a movement the more natural pressure can be brought to bear on our party political system. If they see that the very idea is not just not going away, but growing as an idea for change then they will either be forced to change their tack or face electoral disaster.
Parties are there to reflect and represent the people not as they would have it, the other way round. 😉
Schrodinger: Actually GB, i was thinking similar thoughts last night, my daughter who, recently joined the snp, was complaining that she hadnt heard back from central office yet.
You’re right. Branch admin must be overwhelmed!
As you know, branch officers are volunteers, many with day jobs making a huge increase in membership difficult to manage. My own branch has moved meetings to a vast hall in the centre of Edinburgh to accommodate newcomers.
I’m looking forward to hearing new voices, not a little nervous that mine will become old-school. But that’s the way of it, and life. I joined the SNP so that I could not, would not prevaricate – I wanted to announce my commitment boldly. Alas, if only I’d foreseen how much money I’d lose at Hills backing my judgment!
Was at “hope over fear” rally yesterday and can’t believe the reports of the crowd attendance, 6000-7000.
That being the case, then I think everyone must’ve been carrying a full-length mirror.
Grouse, Thepnr, Morag, et al. We all have the same goal in mind though we differ in the idealeans to the end so come on, let’s leave the petty bitching and point scoring behind. It serves no practical purpose other than giving our mutual enemies a laugh at our expense.
Move along now, you’re blocking the road. 😉
Macart: I just like the thought of continuing the carnival atmo that large YES gathering brought wherever they appeared in the past couple of years.
I agree. Great movements in modern history began that way.
@Nana
Excellent idea Nana. Its got to be approachable and considered a place where people can gather to discuss how government and politics can work in their favour as providing the practical useful services you suggest. A network of community based Hope over Fear no less. A network which can be seen to be working against austerity based community difficulties and provide useful talking shops and political engagement at the same time.
They would also provide a useful way of coordinating and advertising events.
I like it.
Schrodinger’s Cat 1053pm 12th. Interesting story about BT frightening a pensioner that they would remove her pension book – I thought pension books had been done away with and pensions were paid directly to bank accounts or into a Post Office account!Is there nothing that unionist trash will not lower themselves to?
Matthew Wright on The Wright Stuff has just said to Nadine Dorries that lots of people on his twitter asking how come Nadine is a Tory, she sounds more like Labour to me? Well, her face was a picture.
But there you have it. Labour, Tory, same difference.
dakk says:
12 October, 2014 at 11:58 pm
@Alex Clark
Ye I’m not fixated with 2015 GE,though I’ll def vote SNP.It can take time for ideas to sink into peoples consciousness if they’ve already been conditioned.
The YES movement looks strong and increasingly visible and with more austerity coming it will attract more converts.Just as there was a delayed reaction to the Iraq war,there may be one to the lying and bullying of the BT indyref campaign.
Well said. History lesson: Many people wanted to vote SNP in 2007, but were frightened off at the last minute, by the BBC MSM scaremongering. However, fortunately the SNP still scrapped a minority government, and governed brilliantly during those early years (the best ever IMO) and those that bottled it in 2007 gradually saw the light, and became determined to vote SNP at the next Holyrood election (and we know what happened in 2011).
The same thing will happen with the referendum in 2014 (when the scaremongering was ramped up by several orders of magnitude). Many NO voters will eventually come round, and they will determine that, no matter what, next time it’s a YES.
Caution: Don’t get too excited, however. This will take time, years – a painfully slow experience to many of us already in the YES side. IMO, 5-10 years, 5 years possible, but 10 years if you want to be really safe. Sorry but there is not other way.
There is plenty of good stuff to do in the next 5-10 years, however.
Destroying what’s left of Scottish Labour credibility and reducing their Scottish fodder in WM sounds like a worthwhile objective in the short term. Let’s get to it.
@Bill McLean. I’m pretty sure that kind of activity comes within the definition of ‘Terrorism’. I thought Westminster was protecting us against that sort of thing.
Kenny: There is no chance of another vote on independence in near future. The only window would be if UK as a whole votes to leave the EU and even then I’m not sure how it can be worked.
I’m also at a loss to know how to motivate Yes voters when the government ask that we embrace the move for ‘Devo-Max’ powers. I find it impossible to accept the result because the process was so fraudulant and undermined. Some will say, that that’s politics. Well, it isn’t democracy.
I realise we should accept each power as it arrives, no matter how weak, probably with some other power removed, because it’s a step closer to independence. As Brown says, scared stiff, full tax raising powers might lead to independence!
So, we take what we can get but still agitate for genuine self-goverance. But how, and in what ways?
@Macart
Exactly. It would be great if YES activists from all the various parties etc could be trying to set up such places.
Anyone having any contact with SNP ministers should maybe bend their ear!
In almost every town I’ve been through in the last few years there are plenty unused small buildings, some left to go to ruin which would benefit from a facelift. Again doing that would surely benefit the towns outlook.
With all the government cutbacks a lot of community centres etc have had to close so elderly people don’t see much community spirit. We need these hubs for everyone’s well being.
When I joined the SNP in 1977, they were the only party to promote Independence. Alex Salmond was a committed left winger in the party and a member of the Socialist republican organisation, the 79 group, who were suspended from the membership of the SNP for a month. I was elated when Alex Salmond, Kenny McAskill et showed their left wing credentials because I am on the left of Politics too. He never thought that the Labour Party would give us Devo Max! Absolutely true!
So many in the SNP are on the left and would probably have joined the SSP if they had been around. Us lefties should therefore not argue amongst ourselves about who is more left. Let’s all get on with getting Independence and then we can decide on the individual parties after.
We need Stu to keep us in control guys! Hope you are having a great holiday Stu!
@Mealer says: 13 October, 2014 at 12:58 am:
“Aye there are loads of folk who want to be British. But most of them are boring bastards.And incontinent.”
For crying out loud, Mealer, what the hell is it about people who do not stop and think what the words they use actually mean and realise they are talking utter, ” rectally sphinctered bovine waste matter”, (that’s bullshit if you haven’t already caught on. Let’s get things correct, Mealer.
British is, “belonging to Britain”, All Scots, Welsh, English, N. Irish, Channel Islanders and Manx people are British. Westminster isnot owner of Britain.
I’m as British as yon numptie Cameron who so often wrongly claims he is, “Prime Minister of Britain”.
This whole idiotic confusion of such terms as, Britain, England and United Kingdom by the Westminster Mafia is a deliberate tactic to fool people of what is going on before their very eyes. The facts prove they are doing so successfully.
Scottish people seem unable to see what stares them in the face. The fact is that Westminster is Not the Parliament of Britain. That Westminster is Not the Parliament of The United Kingdom of Great Britain for, upon the introduction of Devolved parliaments, Westminster became the actual Parliament of the actual country of England.
The truth though is that the Westminster Parliament operates as the de facto Parliament of the Country of England. It legislates for England and adds wee codicils to English legislation to accommodate Scots, Welsh and N. I. laws. It funds England directly as The United Kingdom and decides the Block Grants of Scotland, Wales & N. I. while tying their funding to that of the Country of England. It devolves the powers of that unelected de facto parliament of England to the three devolved parliaments and by the numbers of elected members assures that under Westminster rule England will remain the Master Race.
533 English UK members
59 Scots UK Members.
40 Welsh UK members.
18 N.I. UK Members.
That is 533 Englanders vs 59+40+18=117 and that’s a clear majority of 533-117=416 Englanders over all other United Kingdom countries.
England has made itself The Master Race, (disguised as the UK), and is dictating English powers over the Welsh, N. Irish and Scotland. All that in what was once a bipartite union of only the Kingdoms of Scotland & England in 1706/7.
Settling for devolution of any kind, while Westminster remains the de facto parliament of England, means that we Scots have voted to remain enslaved by the 533 English parliamentarians disguised as the United Kingdom Parliament.
Anyone able to prove that what I have just claimed is not the actual situation?
Capella, I am from the Western Isles (I left 25 years ago because of the economic situation there) and couldn’t believe the result either so called my brother to ask what happened. I was aware of the influx of “White Settlers” amongst the natives (those who stick to their like minded cliques and don’t want to mix with the locals) but couldn’t believe there was so many as to produce a “no” result in the referendum. Apparently the southern isles voted 70% for independence but the bulk of the population which is in the northern isles were encouraged to vote no because of the liberal attitudes of the SG who do things like allow same sex marriages that do not fall within the narrow ideology that wants to live in the 18th century. Apparently food banks protected by nuclear missiles are more acceptably christian. I should say that I find the rationalisation of extreme views by any side in theological discussions to further their own narrow view of the world extremely distasteful so please do not consider this an attack against one side or the other as both have unsavoury aspects to their actions and ideology.
Having said that some of them may get their wish to return to a full set of 18th century values quite soon, rickets, starving children, workhouses etc’, however I’m sure they wont be very happy when they do.
I’m all for heated debate (not childish spats) but some of the abusive comments on here recently have me wondering if i want to continue reading Wings and i may not be the only one.
I hope Stu can sort some of this out on his return because reading through some of the, frankly ridiculous, tit for tat abuse is not doing this site any favours.
If i get jumped all over because of this comment so be it.
you extended an olive branch Alex, I accepted it
i posted some of your comments on this thread where you had insulted 3 or 4 other people, not just GB
if you look closely, i didnt make any comment on that post
the only comment i actually made was to say that calling someone an arsehole was neither “good” nor “clever”
im sorry if you think im jumping on your back and i do not being divisive by saying that direct insults are good or clever
it seems a fairly innocuous thing to say
@bill mclean, yeah, i think you are right, but she did say was threatened with her pension being removed on the 19th, and was in a very distressed state, of that i can assure you.
there are many others who have first hand experience of pensioners being doorstepped and threatened with similar tactics by bt, I was mere pointing out that ian brotherhoods experience was not an isolated case.
but i think we all knew what project fears tactics were, it was orchestrated not just on the doorstep, but by the msm as well. and it worked
Robert: Settling for devolution of any kind, while Westminster remains the de facto parliament of England, means that we Scots have voted to remain enslaved by the 533 English parliamentarians disguised as the United Kingdom Parliament.
There are No voters who’d laugh at the suggestion they are ‘enslaved,’ but I know what you mean. We get alien policies imposed on us composed for a different nation.
Anyhow, got to get back to work. Till next time …
@mccart & gb
i was thinking more along the lines of how we organise ourselves
do we break down the activists into smaller more local groups?, what about some type of web page for posting info etc cos the present round robin email chain letter wont work if we get another 1000 members?
Beers were always in tins, never cans.
Why, because, in days on yore they were tine cans were “tinned” on the inside, against corrosion.
I got four people to join the SNP which is quite incredible really but they all got this email so far. Looks good to me and its 55 thousand New members now. A Membership of 80 thousand people is staggering and I have at least 4 more to come. Rome wasn’t built in a day:D
Membership email from Peter Murrell
View this email in your browser
A quick update from the member care team here at SNP headquarters.
First of all, this email is to confirm that we have received your application safely and we are moving as fast as possible to process it.
As of this morning, we are about one-third of the way through processing the 50,000 applications received over the last 12 days.
So if you’ve not yet received a confirmation email, one will be coming very soon and hopefully before the end of this week.
Thereafter we will move quickly to produce your membership card and post it to you along with a member handbook.
Your membership of the SNP is valid immediately first subscriptions are paid or a direct debit is put in place.
So if you have a confirmation email, you’re already a member.
It also means your local branch know that you’ve joined, so expect them to be in touch with you very soon.
But please bear with us while we get on top of the unprecedented demand.
Most of all though, thank you for joining and being part of turning the SNP into a massive people’s force for change.
Best
Peter Murrell
Chief Executive
Scottish National Party
@Nana
Well we know that politicians and connected members pay attention to this site and these threads. Hopefully more than one one will have clocked this conversation. We can’t let good ideas and a positive momentum go to waste. People are going to need that kind of network and that kind of aid in the next couple of years.
Schroedinger’s Cat
Get a bigger boat, lots of them.
“Settling for devolution of any kind, while Westminster remains the de facto parliament of England, means that we Scots have voted to remain enslaved by the 533 English parliamentarians disguised as the United Kingdom Parliament.
Anyone able to prove that what I have just claimed is not the actual situation?”
im not settling for devo max, FFA, i just think that in the next 6 months, this is the vehicule we must ride towards independence
It is after all something even the nos agree on
if we achieve this in may 2015, and i believe we can
i will go back to moaning about trident, illegal wars and stupid foriegn policies like pulling out of the EU 🙂
Graeme Doig says:
13 October, 2014 at 10:02 am
I’m all for heated debate (not childish spats) but some of the abusive comments on here recently have me wondering if i want to continue reading Wings and i may not be the only one.
I hope Stu can sort some of this out on his return because reading through some of the, frankly ridiculous, tit for tat abuse is not doing this site any favours.
If i get jumped all over because of this comment so be it.
Ach, when the cat is away……..
We are in sort of limbo at the moment, waiting for the Smith commission to report etc. Patience! Things will get very interesting soon, and then we can refocus our efforts. I agree that the abuse and division should stop — let’s all make an effort to stay together – think of how much we achieved during the past two years by remaining disciplined and united (in spite of our many differences of opinion). We do need to focus however. As any general will tell you, a big, idle army will eventually turn in on itself. We need another battle to keep us busy, and the Labour Party are there for the taking!
Our enemies have gained a reprieve but they are still deeply concerned. 45% is enough to blow the UK apart, and they know it. We have to be ready for sustained efforts to divide the YES campaign. Concern trolls and agent provocateurs will appear in increasing numbers before the GE in 2015. Let’s not help them by losing our discipline and solidarity.
Graeme
I tend to agree, and I have lost track over what the actual argument is about to boot.
We have a job to do, the Smith Commission needs to be held on track, Home Rule (or as near as damn it) secured, Labour prevented from scuppering aspirations for cheap party gain in Westminster and we have a General Election coming up. All the Yes parties are doing well and all support continuing the fight…so should we.
Arguing over which version of the Judean Front we are seems a tad pointless and no doubt delights those who would like to derail the continuation of the Yes impetus. There are plenty of other things to discuss without nipping over the number angels that can stand on a pin head.
We all support independence and we will all take Home Rule as a step towards that. Now that Smith is taking personal submissions I think we should be discussing our wish list to that Commission.
Testing
I see Stu is back online, in that he has re-tweeted about three tweets into his timeline.
I was beginning to get a bit worried about him, because he disappeared on Saturday morning shortly after Kate Higgins tweeted something indescribably vile about him. Several Wings people (and a couple of non-Wings people) came to his defence, but he seemed quite upset by it.
I hope he’s been having a pleasant, relaxing time away from the computer, and not seething with rage about a jealous, irrational harpy and her mind-games.
This is the page for the Smith Commission for those who haven’t sighted it
https://www.smith-commission.scot/news/say-submitting-ideas-views-proposals-commission-03-october-2014/
The page for the Smith Commission for those that haven’t sighted it.
https://www.smith-commission.scot/news/say-submitting-ideas-views-proposals-commission-03-october-2014/
@SC
I like Nana’s idea, but essentially the bare bones of YES morphing into a community based, progressive pro indy talking and action shop. A place where members of all parties and no parties come together to provide useful support for each other and their communities regardless of party or governmental politics. A place where perhaps new converts can be educated about constitutional politics in general and people can discuss their ideas on politics and governance in general, but it could also act as a way of providing real aid to those in need where people feel short changed by an MP or local representative.
People with cross party experience or party affiliations could provide useful advice for instance in how to get things done. There are going to be services dropped as budget cuts bite and laws are altered to suit further austerity measures and welfare reforms. They are going to need bods who understand how to explain these things at a local level and how to appeal against same. But most importantly regardless of their party affiliation they have to put people and self determination before their parties.
Nana Smith @9.33
That’s an excellent idea.
Our Yes shop is going to continue as an SNP one, therefore a presence in the community will persist. I really hope they can reach out to that all important grey vote of which there are many around hereabouts.
The Yes canvassers completely missed these folks, in fact all they saw were three last minute No Borders leafletters and the usual Labour lifts to the pollng station.
We also had an elderly lady in tears at our polling station over fear of her pension being stopped and this was relayed to her my her chauffeur.
She was inconsolable because she wanted in her heart of hearts to vote Yes.
There were BTers in the social clubs, bowling greens and in the care homes. We even had one running the polling station FGS!
My dad lives in a Grey vote area and sometimes they don’t see anyone for months.
One old lady froze to death last year because she never saw anyone, she lay dead for 3 months before being found. This should have flagged up the problem but still they live in isolation. BEEB fodder.
Inclusion over fear.
David Smith – totally agree with your sentiment but my better-half who is forensic about her politics asked me to ask Schrodinger how they could follow up on the threat?
Just wanted to say after reading some very disagreeable posts over the past day it is time for reconciliation and to remember why we are all here. I would also say to many of you and I am a bit of an insomniac that you are better sleeping on it and if not that at least getting away from here of a night. Then you will not regret your words
I confess that I said I would rather have Tommy Sheridan than the people I felt shafted him. I always saw Tommy as one of those charismatic people that the Establishment really wanted rid of. Tommy was taking too many people away from the Establishment first choice, the working class party which they bought many years ago.
We should all remember though and I do try very hard to do so that we all want a free and independent country and if we do not stick together we will be another failed state, within another failing state.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29595529
Anyone know the actual attendance at the ‘Hope over Fear’ rally in George Square yesterday?
The Herald says 7000
The Scotsman just says ‘thousands’
and the Daily Record doesn’t mention it at all
Schrodinger – thank you for your fulsome reply. Have passed it on to boss who will, as a YES supporter from Birmingham, be enraged – not at me I hope!
Schrodinger: what about some type of web page for posting info etc?
Ah, understood. I like that idea – they’ll want freedom to interchange ideas and experiences that are not subject to a branch agenda or presiding officer’s guillotine.
To the peacemakers:
On the SSP ad infinitum despute – please count me out. I have not engaged in it, nor feel the inclination to get involved.
I second Graeme Doig’s post a 10:02 AM
Splitters, PFJ, etc can be quite amusing but personal abuse is a total turn off
Remember there is a vast readership of Wings, with curious soft & partially guilty No’s possibly surfing over for a quick gander – seeing this sort of stuff is hardly likely to encourage them to stay, let along contemplate the errors of their ways………..
Onwards!
I’m now going to stop biting my hand and comment. The door is open on this matter and as a great supporter of this forum; I want my tuppence worth heard.
The reason that I have been reading this blog for well over a year has been the incisive and wholly informative wit expressed by many of the ‘regular’ contributors.
Had it not been for WoS I would have not been able to ascertain from the comments and links, much of what was important in the big ‘debate’. Hell, much more honest discussion was (is) being deliberated here than within the institutions that I, and I’m sure many more of us have grown up to believe in and trust.
But…
I was at George Square yesterday with my eldest son.
Since it had been announced that both the gathering was to happen, and that WoS representatives would also be in attendance, I looked forward to a combined appearance for the event and a “how do you do?” (face to meme to face) with the WoS supporters.
In the end, I avoided WoS. Why?
Just recently, I have read nothing but what can simply be put as negative, pompous “you’re not worthy” type sentiments expressed to those who have dared enter the arena of WoS comment. This has been increasing especially since the 18th.
One comment recently even stated “have you seen how many new contributors there have been…” Not written in encouraging tone.
I won’t mention names…you know who they are…you know who you are.
Having done my duty pre-referendum; having printed off and distributed many a copy of the WBB to a very hostile audience (middle management, white collar “my bank balance is all that counts in my life” type head in the sand NO voter) I feel I have earned some right to make my pathetic, un-worthy, illiterate utterances (in comparison to those esteemed long-term contributing word-smiths on here)
I have persuaded many a person to reads this blog, and to contribute if they have a unique point and/or wish to add to an existing debate. I have hoped that many a wavering weak-NO voter might have been persuaded by some of the factors here that have just not persuaded them to switch to a vote of faith elsewhere.
How personally humiliating to now have folks state to me “why bother with WoS, it reads as an elite forum…”read our words, don’t dare contribute or contradict”
My university son was of the same opinion yesterday…”these are the folks who publicly slate a 19 year old for not having the skills to express himself eloquently and in ordered fashion. So much for nurturing the young”
…and yet, comments on here since yesterday from the more progressive contributors praising youthful speech makers at yesterdays event.
Can I therefore ask. Could you please (some of you) start and think about what you say to others who are perhaps not so capable, but all the same, have a point to make.
You few who think you have a right to demean others, either because they are new contributors and/or are not so witty and articulate…think on about the disillusionment you are causing. And this is a negative influence reaching out to those who never do comment, but merely read.
Try a bit of nurture and positivity.
Hooray, the Union loving Media get all excited by announcing their Genereal Election Debate schedule.
Dave vs Ed
Dave, Ed and Nick
Dave, Ed, Nick and Nigel
We are yet again consigned to the lavvy bowl of history.
Oh, and hugs to you too Ronnie!
I can understand why tempers are on edge but please as many have stated it’s about gaining as many Independence parties in Westminster as possible for this next general election. We have to point out just how the other parties aren’t working for our interests only for what is working for Westminster alone. We have much we can expose people to in terms of the lies of Oil, pensions and the NHS in Scotland which is on strike today in England and Wales. We have to gently open eyes to this not get them to blindly go to the ballot boxes in the next GE and vote labour because it stops the tories from getting in. That’s what people who think “we’re not genitically programmed to make big decisions” want us to think.
Be passionate by all means but we’ve got to be open to speak and as before ANSWER peoples questions.
@SquareHaggis
My friend is a thoroughly good person. In that she does as much as she can to help the elderly in her community and has done for many many years. Once a week she picks up prescriptions and other essential items for her ‘dears’ as she calls them and on Thursday she ferries them into town for a weekly shop. She does all this from her own pocket.
Don’t know how much longer she can do this as her own health is not great at the moment, so all will lose out. I bet the old dears will miss her as she is company for a short while each week.
Before the 18th she explained to them the pensions issues and most of them voted YES. Two voted NO and said they were too scared by what they were hearing on the tele and nothing she told them was persuasive enough.
So any help we can give the elderly while at the same time ‘educating’ regarding independence is to be applauded
@ RMAC
Thanks for that interesting comment. It is sad that so many are scared by narrow religious prejudice when it comes to voting for independence but still vote SNP in the GE! Sounds as though the older generation predominate and don’t ask themselves why all the young people have to leave? I would also guess that lack of any alternative news left people prone to the media scaremongering.
Talking of alt media there’s good discussion on RT with Russell Brand
(which would horrify the wee frees!).
http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/194888-episode-max-keiser/
@ Nana Smith, 9:33am; Macart, 9:43am
Re Yes hubs for education and lending a helping hand in the community.
The first thing will always be how to fund premises such a set up. I know, our little group found that rents/rates expected even for premises which have been empty for years was prohibitive and owners were not keen to be associated with the campaign. So, your idea about seeking out grants might bear some fruit if these hubs are used to assist the wider community.
I believe that some Yes shops are still open and that Yes cafés idea are propsed in a some areas. Encouraging younger people to become involved in such activity would bode well for the future too.
Thank goodness for your posts this morning dealing with practical ideas for moving forward instead of navel gazing.
Too much ego here at the moment and more than enough of the “he said, she said, he said” and I thought peace might be breaking out yesterday!
We’ve got work to do.
We had an SNP Branch meeting last week. At that meeting the convener was able to say exactly how many new members we have (like most branches, we’ve slightly more than trebled our membership), and some of them had managed to come along to the meeting.
We had conference to discuss, and the new members were offered the chance to be delegates if they wanted to. People were interested to know how things were done, and what the mechanisms were for voting for officebearers and selecting candidates for 2015 and so on. It wasn’t boring.
The convener immediately started talking about changing the format of the meetings to include debates, discussions and invited external speakers, precisely to keep the new people interested and get them up to speed on political issues. I’ve always wanted to do that, but there’s a limit to what you can actually do when it’s just the same familiar half-dozen people every month tendering the same routine reports.
We’re quite a small branch, just over 300 members even now, but we’re trying. I hear the big branches are being even more imaginative. I think the influx of new members will integrate well and prove a great asset to the party.
@Capella says: 13 October, 2014 at 2:07 am:
“Any ideas on how to let people know what the true situation is?
Sure I have, Capella, and I’m getting tired of telling it to Wingers.
Tell the people the truth of what, “The United Kingdom” originally was and what it has now become. The facts are plain enough and easy enough to prove.
In 1706/7 two equally sovereign independent Kingdoms, (that between them included four countries), signed a Treaty of Union to finally unite the monarchy that wore both crowns as one realm and to also unite their two independent parliaments under a completely new parliament.
Then, on 4 Apr 2009, the whole legal Treaty of Union and its bipartite ideal was upended by Westminster and stands upon its head. The blatant confidence trick of –
DEVOLUTION – was worked against the sovereign people of Scotland by the Westminster Establishment and, to date, most of The People of Scotland still fail to realise they are being played as suckers and taken in by the Establishments clever bunkum trick.
Watch this video folks and realise what we thought we were getting : –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9raiKg7R1JY
Now consider what we have actually been fooled into accepting by getting Devolved powers by the Establishment. Instead of the bipartite United Kingdom returning to two independent parliaments both with a federal parliament at Westminster and with the realm remaining as one United Kingdom the Establishment conned us into accepting a quadratic set-up of four individual countries but with only three of them getting a devolved parliament. That made the United Kingdom’s elected Parliament also assuming the role of an unelected, (as such), Parliament of England.
The numbers game was not at first apparent : – 533 unelected members of the de facto parliament of the country of England sat at Westminster as elected United Kingdom Members and thus English Members outnumbered all others with the figures showing as English 533 minus 59 Scots, 40 Welsh and 18 N.I members. A clear majority of English members of (533-59-40-18=533)-117))= 416.
The situation since then has been exactly as described by David Mundell, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom.“. The Establishment is now the Country of England’s 533 unelected members devolving England’s powers to the other three devolved parliaments while it funds England directly as the United Kingdom, decides the subservient countries block grants by use of Barnett Consequentials and dictates to us all what we can & cannot do and rubbing our noses in it by demanding the rest of us not interfere when the actual UK parliament decides it is the Parliament of England.
Why then are not the Scottish political parties telling it how it is?, (and I’m not talking about the unionist parties here). Why are the actual Scottish Parties not telling the people of Scotland, “Hey Jock, you’ve been had. Na! ni! na! ni! Na! Na!”?
We do need to be realistic though. It’s all very well calling for a Yes hub in every “city, town and village”, but who is going to run these and where’s the funding coming from? How many people making these abstract suggestions are actually prepared to give up several hours a day to staff something like that? Bear in mind that even during the campaign period most towns and villages didn’t have such a facility.
It’s fantastic that some of the Yes shops are staying open, including my local one. I think we need to concentrate on making sure the ones that actually exist are adequately resourced and staffed, and maybe seeing if a wee bit of judicious expansion is practical, rather than chasing unrealistic dreams.
UKIP’s Farage invited to take part in one of the TV election debates with ‘other’ 3 party leaders! No SNP, Greens, etc? Is the UK media driving political agenda…?
Must get control of broadcasting in Smith proposals!
Reply to my email to Malcolm Walker of Iceland
Thank you for emailing our C.E.O. Malcolm Walker. He has asked me to send his reply on to you. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information. I have detailed Malcolm’s reply below.
Dear
I am very sorry indeed to hear that we have lost your custom as a result of the misreporting of my comments in the final stage of the Scottish referendum campaign. This was a decision for the Scottish people and we, as a Welsh-based business operating throughout the UK, were careful not to seek to influence its outcome in any way.
During the one and only interview I gave on the subject, to Channel 4 News, I admitted that we had not prepared seriously for the possibility of Scottish independence. I also said that the costs of doing business were likely to be higher in an independent Scotland, as they are in the Republic of Ireland. At no point did I say that prices to consumers would rise.
In fact, I very explicitly said that we were operating in a very competitive market and would NOT increase our prices to Scottish consumers, whatever the outcome of the referendum, but would absorb any extra costs and continue to strive to give our customers north of the border the best deal we possibly could. Unfortunately Channel 4 chose not to broadcast this part of the interview.
I was as baffled as anyone by the subsequent misrepresentation of my comments in the Daily Record of 15 September, when Ed Miliband was quoted as claiming that “supermarkets, from Iceland to Waitrose, have said prices would rise” if Scotland voted “yes”. I felt that it was important to put the record straight on this and I am sorry that we did not manage to do so more promptly.
I hope that you may reconsider your decision to withdraw your custom from Iceland as the jobs of our Scottish staff ultimately depend on our continued success north of the border. I can assure you that we really do value our customers in Scotland, whatever their views on independence, and will continue to do our very best for all of you.
In any event, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your correspondence and for your support and custom over the years.
Yours sincerely
Malcolm Walker
Liz Carruthers
Comms and Media Team Leader
Ext 77746
Apologies for the double post. I had a clear out of my computer and downloaded some internet banking protection software and I am having a wee bit of a problem getting it all to behave….see computers.
I finally got the “budgie wi nae teeth” reference. God I’m slow….
I read that article in Bella last night. It was really interesting, in that “food for thought” sort of way articles can be even if you don’t entirely buy what they’re saying. He really described the last two weeks of the campaign for me. Abusive isn’t a strong enough description for what was done.
I tend to think Muttley is in the right of it as regards UDI. Really, I thought Doug Daniels’s short comment was probably the closest to reality as far as we can discern what that is at the moment. I don’t see how we can possibly achieve independence by any mechanism unless we are able to demonstrate that more than 50% of the total population is with us.
The other part of the article that was a bit off the wall was the concept of the Yes Alliance for the 2015 election. Other articles have written very realistically about the problems with this concept. It sounds good, but if there’s no practical chance of it happening the attempt could use a lot of energy and cause real division.
But the reason I think it’s interesting to talk about these things is that we can’t really predict what’s going to happen. Everything is very much up in the air and the trick will be to go with events as they unfold and turn these to our advantage. If we’ve been brainstorming various possibilities, even possibilities that don’t seem very practical, we’ll be in a better position to see the chances that open up before us.
Nicola and her team know a lot more about the realpolitik of the situation than we do. I think we’re in for an interesting ride, with any luck.
I have family that live in the south of Edinburgh. Some were definite No voters but some were Dks. This is Ian Murrays district. They had only a couple of leaflets from yes so I sent some of them WBBs. This is labour heartland so I can’t understand why No one from Yes was seen around. We have to target areas like this next year!
I’ll be glad when the Rev gets back from a much deserved holiday.
At a guess I’ve read over 200,000 comments on wings and wether I agree with them or not I appreciate the different angles of thought, even some of the trolls have been helpful in understanding where they are coming from.
I’m not sure how name calling is or can be helpful on this site but I’m going to indulge.
Every person that voted Yes, in my eyes is a fucking LEGEND 🙂
@ Morag
I and Kate Higgin’s paths crossed a long time ago, before Wings and does anyone remember her involvement with Geoff Breslin and his unconvinced position on independence and the SNP?
Anyway, I think she an egoistical, unhinged, chancer, always on the look out for the main chance to advance Kate Higgins. A professional feminist, in my book.
If I cam orrect Stu and Kate actually were contemporaneous, for a short period, on G Breslin’s blog. He must have really got up her nose.
I have very low hopes for the Smith commission.
There is no such thing as a pro-devolution Unionist. They perceive devolution as a mechanism to try to keep Scots quiet and controlled. Throw them a few powers, but retain the real purse strings. To London, it’s all about supressing and containing Scots’ aspirations.
Look at the evidence. The Calman fiasco – after much deliberation that was what the Unionists thought was sufficient extra devolution. Then for the entire campaign up until the 8th Sept, we had DevoNano presented. And now, the Unionists are moving as fast as they can back to that position.
They know it’s not what Scots want. The majority have wanted Home Rule, now called Devo Max, for 120 years. Around two thirds consistantly want control of all taxes, welfare, pensions, oil & gas revenues etc etc..
Those who believe that will come under a devolution settlement are away with the fairies. Those levels of powers only come with real independence.
The good news is, those who were duped with very soon realise they were duped!
My firm believe is the Unionists won a temporary victory by fear and deceit, then even more deceit. It is a hollow constitutionally unsustainable victory.
jacksloan2013 says:
13 October, 2014 at 11:08 am
UKIP’s Farage invited to take part in one of the TV election debates with ‘other’ 3 party leaders! No SNP, Greens, etc? Is the UK media driving political agenda…?
Must get control of broadcasting in Smith proposals!
Could this decision be challenged in the courts? You would think at least one of the leaders debates should include all party leaders from the three devolved nations.
@ Col the Viking and Graeme Doig,
Re Splittelism
My simple thought.
We hang together or are hanged individually.
The only splittelist I have any respect for is Albert Einstein and nobody here on this blog comes anywhere near him.
If we are not careful, we will be feeding the bullets to the MSM and the fellow travelers who wish us no end of harm.
Cool it and get a grip or create your own fight club cage on the dark internet.
I’m sure i read someplace that the Republican movement in Eire was only getting around a third of the votes during their struggle to free themselves from British control. Does anyone know the truth of this story?
@Betty Boop
People need help and education Betty and they’re going to need that help right soon. I’m economically dyslexic and couldn’t organise the proverbial in a brewery, but the brains and talent to carry such ideas as Nana’s forward have to be looking in on this site. From the evidence of yesterday’s rally the spirit is more than willing, the will to go forward is there.
What we need is Nana’s Hub.
How about a national petition for devomax?
Could well achieve 2 million signatures, but it would take time. Something to contemplate early next year, after the Smith Commission disappoints everyone?
@ galamcennalath
I have no expectations and no hope for anything from the Smith Fudge.
You would think that by now, we would be able to write the report before he started it.
Just go through all the public independent reports on anything from the UK Government of the day and run them through a plagiarism detector software.
They are all pre-written, just the grammar and syntax are changed, like the Colonies Retreat from Empire Strategy and Tactics Manual, from the Westminster Civil Service.
Nearly a month from the referendum and the smoke starts to clear.
It is important that over hasty decisions are not made and a watching brief continues. SNP conference will be very interesting
The longer things go on the more difficult I find it to understand the result.
I cannot find those NO voters.
I know a number of NO voters but as far as I can see they represent a minority position very markedly and while I might just have accepted that NO victory was possible it would only have been a very narrow one.
What is significant is that a sizeable proportion of the electorate now suspect the vote was not straight.
In particular the postal voting figures are showing in some areas a take up which is virtually impossible. Watch this space.
Allan Grogan is still full on for independence. He has not rejoined Labour. He is not a member of the SNP but I see he is going to talk at SSP meetings. It is entirely possible that some people attacking him are pretending to be members of the SNP. That’s the way they do it.
Tommy Sheridan’s political problem is not the sh*gging, nor the perjury. It is the unacceptable behaviour he showed to members of the SSP, none of whom wanted to be dragged to court to testify against him,when they refused to lie under oath on his behalf. He hugely damaged the SSP as he did so.
Tommy should publicly and privately apologise (even if he doesn’t meant it,though it would be better if he did)and they should publicly accept it (even if they don’t believe it,though it would be better if they could) which would then allow us all to go on with cause that is much bigger than any of us.
You don’t actually have to be able to talk to people you don’t like to contribute effectively to the same cause.
Anybody brave enough?
@ Luigi
The only petition that will have any effect on Westminster and the Administration is one forcibly rammed up their sphincter.
Apologies but…..
The trouble is, Flower of Scotland, who’s “we”? Getting material out to voters requires feet (and wheels) on the ground. I don’t want to nag, but there are quite a lot of people calling for other people to do stuff.
I never know how much difference posting BTL on newspaper articles makes, but I suspect not very much. And yet a lot of people write about doing “duty” on newspaper sites as if this was their big contribution to the independence debate. Could that have done more if they’d got out of the house with a pile of literature and started going round the doors?
Did I make the wrong decision when I decided to concentrate on getting literature out to all the houses in my area, by sticking it through the letterboxes, rather than knocking doors and talking to people, although that would have meant lots of houses got nothing at all? I don’t know. I couldn’t do both, and we didn’t have enough people to do both. We seem to have more people now, so maybe more will be possible.
I see a lot of grandiose declarations that we want to get rid of every single unionist MP in May. I’d love to think that was possible, but I don’t think it is. Some of the Labour ones have absolutely enormous majorities. There are still a lot of people sitting at home watching the BBC and STV and reading the Daily Record who were relieved by the No vote and will simply surface again in May and vote Labour.
Can we get rid of Mundell, here? Looks like a big ask to me, as we were fourth in the constituency in 2010, and the area only voted about 33% Yes overall (and the rural WM constituency omits most of the higher-Yes towns) so where is the latent SNP vote? On the other hand if UKIP come along and split the Tory vote, who knows?
Would I be better employed driving into Edinburgh South and helping get rid of Murray, and letting Tweeddale go hang? I have no idea actually.
These are the realities on the ground. If people understand that calling for all constituencies to be targeted means a mobilisation of people out there on the doorsteps greater than anything that’s ever been seen before including during the referendum campaign, and committing to contribute their own effort to that, then fine.
I do worry though that people like to sound off on the internet with grandiose ambitions, and then as always on the ground we’ll be left with two or three weary volunteers trying to do the work of twenty.
@ Morag, 10:28am
If Stu has been reading any of this thread over the past couple of days, he will probably want to stay on holiday.
BTW, I like my BB gravatar (cheers me up) and a load of Wingers know who I am – even delivered a box of WBBs to the home of a certain lady in the Borders – and have been the recipient of “Ronnie hugs”, the latest yesterday at the rally 🙂
@ Nana Smith and Macart. Thanks for the practical ideas on moving forward with education and assistance for local communities. Our small Yes group found rent/rates prohibitive, even for premises which had been empty for years, and owners unwilling to associate with the campaign. Your ideas about potential grants might bear fruit if hubs are aimed at community issues too. The idea about yes cafes is being talked of and it would be great if we could involve younger people in the running of them. That would bode well for the future.
Macart’s ideas based around social gathering on a regular basis is also good to keep spirits up and to remind people of the goals.
On another note, I agree with Graeme Doig and many others posting here. It is okay to disagree, but, there is far too much navel gazing going on and the “he said, she said, he said” is tedious and off-putting. Let’g get back to supporting each other and sharing information.
Get a grip, there is work to do.
Juteman at 11.25
The brave men that marched into the GPO and other buildings in the centre of Dublin in 1916 were laughed at and jeered at by crowds of empire Irish in the streets of Dublin. The executions of them after they had surrendered, however, propelled Ireland to independence.
Grizzle McPuss
Hear hear. All my life I have avoided ‘clubs’, as the inevitable forming of cliques sticks in the craw. What we see on WoS now is the longevity clique stamping their authority, and claim of ownership of the site, with put downs of newcomers, and an almost paranoid hunt for ‘trolls’. According to the actions of some, WoS is now a politically correct entity, and straying from the line gets jumped all over. Humour is to be avoided, lest some fucker gets offended.
Stuart talked of an inevitable “dropping off” of viewing stats after the vote.
The actions of the incumbent clique will only speed this on.
@Juteman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Free_State
In 1922 Ireland became a Dominion of the Commonwealth, not a Republic when the population voted to accept the advanced Home Rule offer. This Anglo-Irish Treaty was opposed by Republicans who felt it didn’t go far enough. Sadly, the country descended into civil war with the UK supplying weapons etc to the new Free State government to suppress the Republican faction.
Galamanceath and Juteman
There is a manual somewhere about this or at least someone must have done a doctoral thesis on it?
Maybe a modern day historian of the Roman Empire?
Bugger, I’m not familiar with the episode you refer to. I used to read Kate Higgins’s blog, but got more and more fed up with her attitude. When she started lying to me to support a weak position she’d taken on a particular issue, I left. It was about that time Wings started to take off seriously.
Someone once said that if she had the choice between independence and more readers for her blog, she’d choose the latter. She’s so up herself with this feminism thing I really can’t sympathise. The fact that she and a few others in the same mould get so much prominence in Women for Independence is what is keeping me from getting involved, or even from donating to be honest. I thought it was going to be about taking the independence message to ordinary women, but instead it seems to be about taking the feminist ideology to the independence movement.
Kate’s problem with Stu seems to be that Wings is wildly successful, and he’s a man. Not necessarily in that order. That Stu doesn’t have a sexist bone in his body is another problem – that means that he doesn’t cut her or any of the other feminist flowers extra privileges just because they’re female. He tends to treat them as people, and they don’t like that.
She was absolutely unforgiveably vile to him on Saturday. Even the Evil Cybernat Controller has feelings, and sometimes I don’t know how he puts up with it.
@ BtP
Cool it and get a grip or create your own fight club cage on the dark internet.
Have you still got that “twase” handy?
@ Handandshrimp
I am having to apologise too for posting similar comments in different posts. Still got problems posting with Explorer and end up going over to Chrome (which I don’t like). See computers… I’ll have to get my pc maintenance man on the job (Jim T, I am talking to you) 🙂
Luigi at 11.27
Why bother? We don’t want devo max. We want independence.
I we ramp up our independence campaign they’ll concede lots of stuff to us. He we campaign for devo max we’ll get half of that
That’s politics
Oh Betty, that box of Wee Blue Books made such a difference to my ability to cover the ground round here. You don’t know how much it was appreciated.
@ Morag
Any ideas why men were excluded in Perth?
@ Jim Thomson
You mean a Lochgelly.
Many time have I been strapped by a Lochgelly.
It didn’t work.
There’s a good documentary made by Irish TV (what happens with control of your own media) about James Connolly who was, of course, Scottish by birth, but an Irish hero.
Smith Commission
Have e mailed them with request for devolution of broadcasting. Crown Estates ( could be very important re off shore renewables} and Oil Revenue taxation.
They can be e mailed haveyoursay@smith-commission.scot
Think it important that they are inundated with demands from as many people as possible
The false reports of things Alan Grogan didn’t say are a good example of something the internet makes all too easy. The false statement, repeated unchecked by many others, which becomes “fact”. (The “100,000 SNP members” was another one.)
Stuart bangs on about checking sources, but people don’t. I don’t always do it myself. What I do try to do is phrase anything I’m not sure about as a question. Like, “is it true that Alan Grogan said…?” Or, “where is the source for this 100,000 members thing?” That way if it’s real, the chances are someone will point me to the source and save me some bother. If it’s not, I’ll be put right. And either way, at least I haven’t repeated a categorical statement that was wrong.
There’s a certain mindset needed to avoid making definite statements you’re not sure about, and to take the trouble to check when it’s important, and I think it’s something worth cultivating.
There’s a particularly bad one going around at the moment. An alleged quote from Ian Davidson about “ripping powers from the Nats”, that has been made up as one of these propaganda posters with the words printed besode his photo. I believe the quote is actually from BBC Scotlandshire, and was attributed to him as part of one of their satirical articles.
But it’s like the hydra. No matter how often one promotion of the fallacy is challenged, up it pops in three other places. And the people challenging it get reviled as the bad guys. Sigh.
Edward at 10.40
The Record under a very large photo says “according to estimates the five hour event was attended to by around 7,000” so I think we can take it there was a very large attendance – not gone unnoticed in the “Labour heartlands”.
Bugger, there was a long Twitter discussion about the Perth thing, where journalists were informed that it was a closed meeting not open to the press. Afterwards, some WFI people started complaining that the press hadn’t covered this extraordinary gathering, and not unnaturally the journalists who had been told not to show up were a bit bemused.
It was all about a “safe space” for women to come forward and speak without being “judged” and all that touchy-feely stuff. Some people seem to like it. I’m not sure how they’d like it if men organised similar meetings for themselves. It may be necessary, but I wish it wasn’t. Women en masse being self-righteous can be a bit intimidating in their own right.
People have told me that I shouldn’t let Kate Higgins and her sisterhood put me off getting involved in WFI, but I don’t see why I should force myself to be part of a group I find uncongenial. As I said, fortunately the SNP accept women on absolutely equal terms, so I don’t actually need to be involved with a women-only group if I don’t want to.
Will McEwan
Cheers
Couldn’t find that on the online site of the DR this morning 😮
@Alex Clark says:13 October, 2014 at 8:54 am:
“Get it now, I really don’t care about the policies of any of the parties only the goal. There is only one goal, I hope the majority here can understand that much.”
Alex, did you actually get the point of what I posted? The Establishment’s people who testified in court as witness’ for the prosecution at Tommy Sheridan’s trial for perjury have themselves been tried and found guilty of perjury. In other words the probable facts are that the split in the SSP and the accusations against Tommy were very probably engineered by the Establishment.
It is thus quite likely that the SSP bitter infighting was due to establishment divide and conquer tactics but even now there are those on here still carrying on with the media hype Demonetising Tommy. I don’t know if Tommy was guilty and wouldn’t attempt to prejudge his case at the appeal court. I will, though, prejudge the Establishment for I know it is rotten through the core.
Will McEwan
I think the Daily Record realises it was shafted, used and abused by the Three Stooges, or more likely their dark arts monkeys, and doesn’t like it one bit.
They will never change from Labour unless it becomes and economic imperative.
The 7,000 George Square rally article was just a warning shot across BritScotLab bows.
I notice the FTSE this morning was only 6315. About ten days before the referendum it was over 6800 then there was that “catastrophic” day when the markets got the jitters about a Yes vote and plummeted to about 6600 (not sure if it was below that), with billions wiped off the value of some Scottish companies. So now that it has dropped even more, surely those Scottish companies have seen billions more wiped off their value? Except I haven’t heard anything about it on the Scottish news. Why on earth would this be? Anybody?
I’m puzzled by the problems people are reporting as regards posting on Wings. I’m posting from three different devices and having no problems at all.
My home computer is quite new and running Firefox on Windows 8.1. My phone is a Nokia Windows phone and I use IE on that. It’s also quite new and regularly updated. My office computer is very elderly and has a block on updates from the IT department. The only browser I have is IE, and it’s around four years old. Version 7.0 it says. There are sites it just can’t cope with at all.
On all three devices my details stay in the comment boxes, I don’t have to re-type them. Since the NFL bug was fixed I haven’t had a single comment vanish. Everything posts immediately I hit submit. I never get a duplicate post, because the system knows i “already said that”.
Given the problems the old IE version I’m using right now at the office has with other sites, the normal, fast, responsive behaviour of Wings is a bloody miracle. I really can’t understand why some people are reporting problems. Is there anyone IT-savvy enough to explain this?
Will McEwan says:
13 October, 2014 at 11:49 am
Luigi at 11.27
Why bother? We don’t want devo max. We want independence.
I we ramp up our independence campaign they’ll concede lots of stuff to us. He we campaign for devo max we’ll get half of that
That’s politics
Because we have to split the 55%. Three points:
1) 60+% of people want devomax.
2) Devomax is a massive step to independence.
3) Westminster will never agree to it any way.
Perception is everything, Will.
We have to show the soft NOs (a fair proportion of the 55) that we are the reasonable ones, we tried everything to get real powers for Holyrood. It then makes another referendum on independence inevitable.
Sure we can keep demanding full independence, but this may alienate most of the 55%. That’s ok, if you are willing to wait a very long time for the old NOs to die off, but there is so much we can do now to further the cause.
Morag, the Ian Davidson one on twitter bothers me too. I started replying to them, that it came from a spoof but it’s now so prolific I can’t be bothered any more, it’s taken on a life of it’s own.
@Robert Peffers –
Hoping to pick your brains as you seem to know your onions about constitutional stuff.
It’s about ‘royal prerogative’ and ‘The Crown in Parliament’. I’m struggling to get my heid about this (and need to – quickly – for a uni essay). Is it correct to say that only the Prime Minister can ‘advise’ the monarch on constitutional matters (officially, at any rate) and that he can expect that advice to be heeded?
In theory, is it possible for Cameron to ‘advise’ that the groundswell of support for independence-supporting parties represents a threat to ‘The Realm’?
You can see where I’m going with this, but it’s all ‘academic’ – bottom-line: the Scottish parliament can be shut down at the discretion of Westminster. In your understanding, is that true?
Grateful for any thoughts.
Harry, I haven’t tried to counter the Davidson one myself, but at least I realised it was from a spoof because I read other people who did try!
Capella
Wrong to attribute fear of Indy in the western isles to religious beliefs. Support for Yes was – and remains, up front and visible. My own area, Ness, at the very North of the island chain, was one of the areas with a majority that voted yes. There is no doubt at all where the resistance to independence resides – the minds of a demographic heavily represented here in the Western Isles, pensioners, who are – in all honesty – quite a little more concerned about pensions than they are about the afterlife, to be frank. And the scare meme on that very issue – exacerbated among those who only access MSM sound bites – caused huge damage here as everywhere else. These people were had, and it is gradually dawning on them too. Brown’s fear mongering on pensions was groundless, but as a cynical short term move, it had precisely the desired effect on the older, media-trusting end of the demographic.
Slagging off folk who fell victim to a con trick is something I try hard not to do. No point in alienating them further when another related ballot is not out of the question between now and 2020. Wait till the actual, real life plans for the state pension filter through & many of those will be quite angry. They’re not daft, but they were misled. And most of them hold traditional values such as honesty and trust in high regard. They’ll not fall for it again.
I am not suggesting to anyone that we abandon our dream of independence, even temporarily. I’m merely saying that we should hound the unionist parties (using their devomax promise) and keep hounding them until the time is right to push for another referendum.
I understand that people are feeling very frustrated at the moment, but we have just had a referendum. The trend is clear – we are getting there, albeit slowly, but we need to be clever in the short term. Scotland decided to give Westminster one last chance to save the union. True to form, Westminster will inevitably screw up again. When the time is right, we strike back.
Can I ask Robert Peffers, Schroedingers Cat, Helena Brown or Scott Finlayson if they were ever members of the SSP, particularly at any time between 2004-2007?
Hi Wingers,
Back from Wales. Bought a new book at Hay on Wye ( Y Gelli ) called “The Establishment and How They Get Away With It” by Owen Jones. ISBN 978-1-846-14719-7.
Not yet finished yet but it is scary. No mention of the Referendum or T Sheridan and SSP dirty tricks though.
However he is coming to Edinburgh to open the “Radical Book Fair” on 22nd October and shall discus this book.
http://www.word-power.co.uk/viewEvent.php?id=3161
It would be a good idea for some Wingers to go along.
Has Davidson bayoneted anyone yet?
He definitely said that…
At the beginning of the campaign independence seemed, even to me, a rather unreal fantasy.To the average person it was the dream of a few fanatical Scots with little relevance to ‘real’ life. However, three years later we have transformed the unrealistic dream into a firm political alternative and despite an onslaught of fear and threats from the establishment we have succeeded in persuaded half the population to vote for it. Independence now looks possible to people from all walks of life, even those who voted no. So let’s not snipe at each other…. We did great and we’ll do even better in the future. Wings needs to hold together and do what we do best, inform and energise. Keep focused folk.
an ian davidson spoof?
i wouldnt have thought he needed a spoof account
the man is a gift to cartoonists
joined the snp when i was 15
been a member since then
@ David Stevenson
I knew Prof. Gregor Gall then, one of the founders of the SSP.
That any help?
Luigi
I agree. I have already submitting my request for Home Rule to the Lord Smith Commission. Of course we want independence but in the interim I will take every sensible power on offer. If by some miracle (obviously Labour MPs will throw toys out of the cot) we do get something approaching Home Rule then I can’t think of a better springboard to independence should/when England lurch further to the right on the EU/immigration/economy.
@Harry McAye
You may find this link interesting, particularly the paragraph below the chart.
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/trends-and-targets/trends-and-targets-13102014
Additionally, I was at George Sq and 6-7k seems about right AT ANY ONE TIME. To be honest, I was in the Millennium restaurant and amazed at the constant coming and going though the entire afternoon. As a result, the total head count was certainly far higher.
Labour in bed wi the Tories, surely not;-)
http://snp-falkirk.co.uk/?p=2187
@Ian Brotherhood
I recall Private Eye mentioning a group of Advisers that the Queen has and its customary for Prime Ministers who step down to join this group. Unfortunately for Gordon Brown, Tony Blair took the unprecedented action of delaying his enrolment and his constant deferral means Gordy cannot be offered a place as this would break protocol.
It might be something to do with The Order of the Thistle of similar but it made me smile at the image of Broony seething at Blair making him wait in the shadows yet again.
@ Harry MacAye
“So now that it has dropped even more, surely those Scottish companies have seen billions more wiped off their value? Except I haven’t heard anything about it on the Scottish news. Why on earth would this be? Anybody?”
Cue the Ry Cooder track and the video of tumbleweed.
@Luigi
I agree. The Unionists should be hounded over their promises. The value of DevoMax to the independence movement is that a lot of people want it, were promised it and wouldn’t be given it. Hopefully they will be feeling very pissed off at being duped, and ready to take a bigger step in the near future!
I doubt it Conan. I knew Gregor from Aberdeen University Labour Club circa 1985-7 myself.
@HandandShrimp
If by some miracle (obviously Labour MPs will throw toys out of the cot) we do get something approaching Home Rule
You really think anything fruitful will come out this token commission? Cue delay after delay and the only thing to prosper will be the long grass as yet more manure like promises get booted into it.
The sentence “That was a different time and a different government, we must now move on together!” will be uttered by Lab or Con post May 2015 and the empty promises to Scotland will fade away in Westminsters eyes.
desimond et al
The Privy Council, of which A Salmond is a member?
@Betty Boop & Macart
Most likely my last post on Wings. Too much to be getting on with including educating some No voters! Also the negativity from certain posters is doing my head in.
I have been involved with a charity for 11yrs. For seven of those years I worked each day for them along with a merry band of mostly elderly folks, and believe me the work involved was quite heavy. But we did it and still do and many more people get involved all the time.
My friend runs a charity shop and all the ‘workers’ are on a rota. They do it voluntarily so I don’t see a problem with staffing a YES/community help hub.
There is no harm in finding out if there are grants available.
I have already stated, I and others I know are willing to distribute any new info from YES especially if there is to be a Scottish newspaper coming soon.
For those being dismissive perhaps we would be surprised by the support. However we will never know if we just sit back and do nothing.
Nor would I suggest something which I myself have not already done or plan to do. The negativity from some will certainly not breed success but will breed contempt.
I will be looking forward to your posts on WeeGinger Dug Macart which I really enjoyed.
Come to think of it, as a Member of the Privy Council hes has take an oath of loyalty to HM Libby.
from the DT in 2007
Upon joining the secretive, but largely ceremonial council, the former republican will be required to take an oath to the Queen, pledging that he will: “Uttermost bear Faith and Allegiance to the Queen’s Majesty; and will assist and defend all civil and temporal Jurisdictions, Pre-eminences, and Authorities, granted to Her Majesty and annexed to the Crown by Acts of Parliament, or otherwise, against all Foreign Princes, Persons, Prelates, States, or Potentates.”
Could that explain his public reticence to espouse republicanism?
So, now we see just how corrupt the BBC is. There will be three televised general election debates for the GE next year. Nigel Farage, who is NOT an MP is getting to take part. No SNP, no plaid cymru, no greens. But Nigel Farage, oh yes.
And so the downward journey of the UK to fascist totalitarianism continues.
What an utter joke this whole country has become.
Nana Smith
Please don’t go!
Its been announced to-day that UKIP are to get prominent role in nationwide TV leaders debates in run to to Westminster elections but no place for SNP despite having more Westminster seats.
BBC pointed out that Scotland would have its own programmes but that gives the London parties double the coverage and actually exacerbates the unbalanced coverage.
Yet another reason why Broadcasting should be devolved as the current UK system mitigates against ALL indigenous Scottish political parties.
Luigi at 12.17
Do not misunderstand me. I know we will have to submit devo max demands. I know they will not be delivered.
But devo max is not a “massive step” to independence. As nobody actually knows what devo max consists of it is a step to diversion and diffusion and provides the opportunity our opponents need to argue iterminably about it.
It is not a step. It is an impediment we will have to negotiate cleverly – essentially by exposing how much simpler and how much better independence is.
“Devo max” got laughed at in George Square yesterday. It’s past tense. Our youngsters are a lot more savvy than many of us realise.
We will extract the maximum concession for the unionists only by pushing hard for independence .
That’s what 60,000 people have signed up for.
The BBC website states that Nigel Farrage is to be invited to take part in a leader’s debate in advance of the 2015 General Election to ‘reflect chages in the political landscape.’ There is no mention of the Scottish National Party being allowed to take part. There is no right of reply on the website since there is no HYS for the article.
Any suggestions of how to right this wrong? And, is it illegal to favour a party with minimum representation and membership at the expense of a party with more MPs and considerably more members?
We hate Dividson: he’s a spoof, he’s a spoof
desimond
yes i agree.
delay, delay, delay, add wait, add wait, add weight, decay, decay, decay, fading of memory, weight added to expectation of ending suffering any time soon.
an old imperialist trick or con.
believe it when you see it.
imo we must always ignore promises of what the provably unreliable can or will give us, and act accordingly.
the plan to maximize the power and influence of the genuine pro indyscot (civil rights) movement, is a very sound one.
@ domhnall ruadh
Thanks for the insight on WI vote. It underlines the baleful influence of the state propaganda machine. UK pensions are around the lowest in Europe and the second lowest in the 25 members of the OECD. i suppose not many WIslanders read the Telegraph.
https://archive.today/cRhT7
How is it that a Labour politician is able to terrify pensioners into believing that they are somehow better off in the UK! We really do have to do something about state propaganda!
We hate Davidson; he’s a spoof, he’s a spoof
Domhnall Ruadh
I hope you are right, and I hasten to add that this is not said in a confrontational manner or as a challenge in any way. As I said in my post I called my brother and he related the “crack” of what was doing the rounds in the southern Isles. The strange discrepancies in the vote when viewing the southern Isles and your own Ness region, which on the face of it should have been a proportional representation of the whole region, ask lots of questions about who and where voted no. I left 25 years ago and when I do very occasionally return I find that I hardly know anyone other than the “old timers” (who probably weren’t anywhere near as old as I thought they were when I lived there), but the overwhelming majority wanted independence which is why it was such a shock when the result was announced. It is good to hear from someone on the spot up North that it appears that the perception of events is not correct.
Nana…. Don’t go
@Bugger (the Panda)
I think the example I was thinking is more exclusive than Privy Council and Tony Bliar is in The Privy Council whereas he defers his enrolment to “Lizzies Book Club”.
I see he also hasnt taken up his membership in the Order of the Garter ( or Thistle equivalent) unlike previous PMs so it could be linked to that.
@Grouse Beater says: 13 October, 2014 at 9:52 am:
“I’m also at a loss to know how to motivate Yes voters when the government ask that we embrace the move for ‘Devo-Max’ powers. I find it impossible to accept the result because the process was so fraudulant and undermined. Some will say, that that’s politics. Well, it isn’t democracy.
Get real, Grouse Beater, and open your closed mind. The facts are all too plain to see. As long as Westminster remains the legally elected Government of the United Kingdom and at the same time is, the unelected, de facto Parliament of England we have a de facto parliament of 533, (unelected as such), members of the Parliament of England deciding what powers of, The Parliament of England, they will allow the other subservient countries to have.
Furthermore, those other 117 legally elected members from the three subservient countries we sent to Westminster’s de facto parliament of England won’t get any say in the matter as 533 Englanders outvote 117 subservient members with a clear majority of 416. Anyway, a good many of those 117 elected members are Unionists Members and they will always vote against their own countries best interests.
Don’t you get it even yet? What we have now is the Parliament of the Country of England, calling itself, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom”, and lording it over the other three United Kingdom countries. While a good many of our legally elected representatives are true unionists who have not only allowed this to happen but have colluded in making it happen. Wake up man – it is the de facto Parliament of England dictating to Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland and they have the brass neck to attempt to prevent our legally elected members from interfering in their unelected as such country of England Parliament’s business.
There is no way we will ever get a democratic method of gaining our rights while 533 English MPs are sitting in a de facto Parliament of England. That means the properly elected members from Scotland legally walking out of Westminster and returning to Edinburgh as the Government of Scotland and voting to end the Treaty of Union 1706/7. They become the upper house and Holyrood the lower house or vise versa.
Morag, I believe the majoritys of the present red tory MP’s are now null and void, they spent the last two years plus hand in glove with the Westminster Tories, doing everything they could to miscall and degrade their own country and its citzens, their is no way anyone will forget that.
The “ukip” advancement down south is bound to redeuce the amount of resources the London based/controlled parties will allocate up here, and their may be a big enough ukip vote to reduce or split the unionist parties in Scotland.
I reckon its all to play for in the general election for the pro independence parties, by working together we can rip the unionist’s apart.
Forget any past majoritys, its a blank sheet.
I have no idea if anything positive will come out of the Smith commission. However, I do believe it would be a disaster if they were able to say, we received only a handful of submissions so it’s obvious the Scots don’t really care about this.
Nana, if you do take a break, make sure you come back!
I think a lot of people are feeling the need to vent at the moment, and some negativity is inevitable at this stage. We’ll get it out of our systems and Stu will come back, and positivity will be resumed!
@Nana
I haven’t had an invite right enough, but you’ll certainly always see me BTL. Have a think about wings though Nana. 🙂
Nana Smith please don’t go
I always look forward to you’re posts and links,the arguments lately have been a pain but we are still the best site for everything Indy.
BBC news at 1.15pm, stated SNP find proposals to include UKIP, and not them in tv debates ‘completely unacceptable’
Davy, I hope you’re right. I don’t honestly know. The problem is that each seat is a separate entity and it’s so difficult to know where the swing in any particular seat will go.
In the past the SNP has suffered from getting big swings in very safe Labour seats, but remaining in second place, while failing to take seats that could have been taken with a similar or less of a swing if that had happened there.
That went out the window in 2011 of course, so I suppose anything’s possible. I’d love to feel there’s a huge constituency of pissed-off ex-Labour voters in Glasgow and Lanarkshire.
@ galamcennalath and @Jutemanin
What both of you say about the irish struggle for independence is quite correct. But between the harshness of british reprisals for 1916 which turned people against british rule and the 1921 treaty, ireland, like the rest of the UK, voted in the 1918 general election (the 1st since the outbreak of WWI).
Sinn Féin candidates (then the equivalent of scotland’s SNP today) won 73 seats out of 105 in the whole of ireland, (so a clear majority of irish people voted for independence). In accordance with Sinn Féin doctrine, their elected members refused to attend Westminster having instead formed their own parliament (Dail Eireann) .The British administration and Unionists in Northern ireland refused to recognise it.
Please note that even though international legislation has moved on since the early 20th century,non-recognition of the desire for independence is a risk Scotland may run if it it is declared even with a majority of Independence MPs elected to Westminster in 2015 and to the Scottish parliament in 2016.
At the Dail’s first meeting attended by 27 deputies (the others were still imprisoned or on the run) on 21 January 1919 the Dáil issued a Declaration of Independence and proclaimed itself the parliament of a new state called the “Irish Republic”.
There’s your UDI – right there, but backed by a majority vote!!
More reprisals followed (black and tans, guerrila warfare, burning of towns and homesteads, etc) which finally led to the Treaty negotiations and partitioning of ireland, the effects of which are still felt today.
Desimond
Yes, there may well be delays, politicking by Labour and Tories and naked self interest killing it all stone dead. However, if, as the SNP, Greens and other have done, we honestly submit a clear demand for Home Rule then the failure of the Commission will fall to the troughers that couldn’t thole the thought of more devolution. That is something that plays well to only independence being the tool good enough for the job.
I don’t see the Commission as a problem for us, it is only a problem for those who don’t want to cede any more ground.
It would be very unwise to underestimate the huge change now in political Scotland.
At this moment in time I think it is entirely possible that all Labour MPs could lose their Westminster seats, particularly in the Central belt.
I rather think a few LibDems MPs are likelier to hang on than Labour ones as in the likes of Argyll and Bute they will attract a residual right wing anti independence vote that is not present in any significant number in Labour seats.
Would like to say Well Done to the Yessers from Leven-Kirkcaldy-Dunfermline who filled the Xpress bus to Glasgow before it had crossed the Kincardine bridge. 90% of the passengers were off to the rally.
In contrast when I done the same bus journey to take part in the march to the legion of doom HQ, there were about 4 yessers out of 15 passengers.
The setback of losing the referendum, in my eyes has made even more people more determined to live in a Free Scotland.
The site seems to be suffering some in-fighting at the moment,understandable in that the prize(our country) was lost.
We all want Independence, thats what should drive us on as a group.
Will McEwan says:
13 October, 2014 at 1:09 pm
Luigi at 12.17
Do not misunderstand me. I know we will have to submit devo max demands. I know they will not be delivered.
But devo max is not a “massive step” to independence. As nobody actually knows what devo max consists of it is a step to diversion and diffusion and provides the opportunity our opponents need to argue iterminably about it.
It is not a step. It is an impediment we will have to negotiate cleverly – essentially by exposing how much simpler and how much better independence is.
“Devo max” got laughed at in George Square yesterday. It’s past tense. Our youngsters are a lot more savvy than many of us realise.
We will extract the maximum concession for the unionists only by pushing hard for independence .
That’s what 60,000 people have signed up for.
Indeed, sounds good, but unless we also take a good proportion of the silent 55% with us, we are doomed to further disappointment. The demographic situation in Scotland indicates that, all other things being equal (and I accept that coming events are unpredictable), it will take at least 10 years to reach the tipping point, when enough of the stubborn, old NO voters are replaced by the savvy youngsters.
Devomax is perfectly easily defined – all powers except defence and foreign affairs. Don’t fall into the fuzzy BBC MSM trap of thinking that Devomax cannot be defined – that’s what they want people to think. They would love to, and will certainly try to, dress up their measly token offers as devomax. Let’s not let them off the hook. Real DevoMax would make full independence inevitable, which is why they will never allow it.
SNP statement on the decision to give the non MP, Nigel Farage, the opportunity to take part in one of the three main GE2015 debates on TV.
“Rejecting the proposals by the network broadcasting organisations to hold a series of three General Election debates which exclude the Scottish National Party (with the BBC merely offering one Scottish debate), SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson MP said:
“These proposals will be utterly unacceptable to any democrat.
“What the London-based broadcasters’ are proposing fails in their duty to their viewers in Scotland, and simply doesn’t reflect the reality of politics across the UK today.
“The broadcasters have the cheek to say that their proposed format factors in ‘changes in the political landscape’ to justify including UKIP – entirely ignoring the fact that the SNP are now by far the third largest political party in the UK.
“Current Westminster voting intentions put the SNP in the lead in Scotland, and it is clearly wrong that the leader of the third biggest political party in the UK should be shut out of these network debates.
“Yet they are proposing to include UKIP, despite the fact the SNP won six seats at the last general election to UKIP’s none – and with the SNP at 40 per cent in Scotland for the general election, to UKIP’s 4 per cent.
“Despite the experience of the referendum campaign, the network broadcasters have once again forgotten their responsibility to Scotland. The BBC in particular as Scotland’s public service broadcaster should hang their heads in shame – under their proposals, the Tories and Labour would be included in four debates, the Lib Dems three, and the SNP just one. That is simply unfair to Scotland’s electorate.
“This looks like yet another cosy Westminster carve-up, and we need to know what discussions the broadcasters have had with the other parties, and why there has been absolutely no discussion with the SNP.
“These proposals are clearly inappropriate for Scotland, and cannot stand.””
Source http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/oct/broadcasters-debate-proposal-utterly-unacceptable
Complain to the BBC on 03700 100 222
Then, if you haven’t already done so, consider if your TV license, which will fund these politically biased debates offers you value for money.
Morag is right. The vast majority of public submissions for the Smith Commission *have* to be for devo max.
Nana Smith,
Please just ignore Wings very own ‘Les Miserables’ – they like the sound of their own voices, wayyyyyy too much. Either way, do come back when REV Stu comes back. Your posts are appreciated 🙂
Morag
1.19
Exactly the point I was trying to get across earlier. Very important we make our arguments to Smith Commission. They probably will not deliver anything much.
Then you can get angry!
haveyousay AT smith DASH commission DOT scot
Sorry
haveyoursay AT smith-commission DOT scot
Will,
I would love to be proved wrong, but I just don’t see Labour being wiped out in Scotland in 2015. The SNP certainly should take a few seats (maybe even one or two Labour ones), but will suffer from being totally ignored by the MSM (eg Leaders debates: UKIP, but no SNP).
Many people will swallow hard and vote for the Red Tories, in the mistaken belief that they are slightly less worse than the blue ones. In the mistaken belief that Scottish votes may determine the outcome. Old habits die hard.
The independence movement has always been a process of two steps forward and one step back. I advise people to manage their expectations accordingly. We are moving forward, but it is a very slow process. You may have noticed, I’m a bit of a gradualist! I’m just going by what I have seen over the years.
Ach well perhaps I need a holiday. I wonder if Lesley-Anne’s darkended room hotel has any vacancies.
Any ideas Macart?
Anyways before I take some time out please take note…
http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2014/october/statement-on-scotland-within-the-uk-monday-13-october-2014/
Aye, Nana, please don’t go. Your links are one of the few that I always follow up because I know it will be worth my time to do so. That combined with your astute observations on all things Scottish would make your going a sad loss for the site.
Speaking of which one other poster who in in the same league as yourself is Call me Dave and I notice he hasn’t been around much. I know he has had health problems, and I sincerely hope he is alright. Anyone know?
Robert: we have a de facto parliament of 533,(unelected), members of the Parliament of England deciding what powers of, The Parliament of England, they will allow the other subservient countries to have.
That was implicit in my response agreeing with your comments.
@ Natasha just catching up on posts,Ah hope you widdled yourself on ma Snake post, where did you get the Rope from its CURLY HAIRY STRING & if your husband’s description of You as a Wee Hairy Thing my suggestion visit Aldi’s £1 a pack throw away Razors,( an am gled am no in reach fur a slap )noo if You had said yesterday you had hairy legs We could have got You a free wax removal, still we’ll keep that in mind for other events. Nice to meet You & Isobel & introduce You,s to the other Wingers, Isobel DONT LURK become a LURCHER bark bark.
@Ian Brotherhood says: 13 October, 2014 at 12:19 pm:
”It’s about ‘royal prerogative’ and ‘The Crown in Parliament’. I’m struggling to get my heid about this (and need to – quickly – for a uni essay). Is it correct to say that only the Prime Minister can ‘advise’ the monarch on constitutional matters (officially, at any rate) and that he can expect that advice to be heeded?”
Not really my subject and I know little about it. I do have a cite from some research I did but not sure it will help you.
http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/government/constitutional_law/citizens_guide_to_government/500456.html
Do NOT bellyache about necessity of devolving broadcasting away from nasty old BBC and then admit to NOT telling the Smith Commission your views on the matter.
Morag
I live in Fife as well you know and was leafleting in this area and visiting DKs.Edinburgh was a NO in the Referendum and I was only saying that more could maybe done in a Labour area for the General election than was done for the Referendum, especially Edinburgh.
Thought that was what Wings was all about! Ideas!
@X-sticks
Aw shucks X-sticks see my post above, I really do need a break.
I’m trying to hold it together after our defeat but its difficult to battle against negativity outwith YES and coming onto Wings was a support I needed each day.
Lately it’s not been great so timeout is what I must have.
I hope callmeDave is ok, I know he’s been unwell.
https://www.facebook.com/TruthBeKnownRevolution/photos/a.315968505119930.92203.297769366939844/826453987404710/?type=1&theater
fear lives in many guises sometimes it is rational sometimes it is not.
scotland will be a very successful independent country have no fear of that.
@Nana
All friends welcome in the darkened room Nana. 😀
BYOB mind. 😀
As the talk of debates starts to simmer…who will represent “Scottish” Labour in the single one of interest?
a: Jim
b: Douglas
c: Gordon
d: Anas
e: Johann / New Leader of Northernesty Northern Branch
@ BtP
Apologies, the post from Jim Thomson (my other half) at 11:46 was actually from me. I forgot to change the name on Chrome which I don’t normally use for posting.
Anyway, not sure what a Lochgelly looks like, but, I was sure it was you who mentioned a five fingered tawse a wee while back. Just hope we won’t need one here! I’ve been away for a wee while and hope everyone has chilled. 🙂
The only order higher than the Privy Council is The Order of the Garter or the Order of Merit, which Mother Teresa turned down.
It only has 24 living members at a time and Lizzie appoints them herself, allegedly.
There is no mention of political merit in the blurb,
See below
http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/OrderofMerit/OrderofMerit.aspx
Flower of Scotland, I know. I wasn’t getting at you or indeed any specific person, as an individual. I hope you didn’t feel got-at!
I was trying to make a general point that we often hear calls for this or that “to be done”, but then when it comes the time actually to do it, volunteers are scarce. A lot of people typed a lot about the voting process and the count needing to be overseen, for example, but then when the Wings referendum agents needed volunteers to do the job, they were short of people.
Some posters seem to think the leafleting fairies do the job. Or the phantom canvassers. However, I think a lot of the increase in membership seen by the SNP (and the other parties) in the past month may reflect a substantial number of people who realised maybe their country needs them, and have resolved to get out there and do something.
Nana
I wouldn’t like to think your decision was based purely on the ‘negativity’ on here at the moment although I would have to agree that there has been too much undue and dismissive criticism of late.
Your contribution to this site is invaluable in my opinion and your absence would diminish it.
Betty
There were two belts I remember.
One was like an erect snake, narrow, stiff, natural colouring and menacing whilst the other was wider and blacker.
Certain dominies used it as a method of child physical abuse; “Dan McGhee, can you hear me Dan McGhee, You took one Hellova Beating in Paris that night, a Hellova Beating (Norwegian accent)”
Two points: (1) I’ve been on this site contributing and reading for three years now and it has sadly declined, falling into the hands of back biters and pedants. In addition a clique is using it like facebook with wee ‘in’ comments and asides…o/t exists for that purpose, but their egos won’t let them keep it there. Remember new and eager contributors will not return if you keep up this boring selfish behaviour and the site will die!
(2)More seriously, Robt. Louis’s point about the BBC’s latest attempt to suffocate our SG’s democratic voice on the planned GE debates is further evidence of their STate sponsored agenda to continue that effective policy.
Remember Greg Dyke was removed by political pressure from heading up the BBC by Alistair Campbell and the Labour party’s pressure to remove him over the Hutton report.
All the aforesaid gnashing of sectarian teeth on here will cut no ice (sorry!) unless our political leaders..i.e. the SG make an all out attack on the BBC in the next few weeks and months. All the other stuff is secondary. The BBC and the msm won the Election….don’t forget it.
By the way, I was at Freedom Sq. yesterday. It was wonderful and the speeches with the exception of the Unison mouthpiece were unifying and inspiring. I saw the Wings Banner and felt like fighting my way through the crowd to introduce myself…but because of all the negative stuff lately…I thought naw…I want to stay positive and enjoy myself…so maybe next time…. once this site has settled down again.
The incredible unfairness and absurd sense of entitlement the westmisnter media have shown today with their ‘debate’ proposals are precisely the kind of thing I would expect Wings to go big on. The utter contempt for scottish voters the London broadcasters are displaying must be hammered home to scots every chance we get.
Wings may even be able to do something to affect these ‘debate’ proposals given that it was named the third most influential political blog in the UK. I hope the Rev Stu has some kind of plan in mind as this would be a perfect opportunity for Wings to affect change.
Natasha: I know exactly how you’ve been feeling. Grousebeater, calm down!
Hi Natasha
You made me laugh. I am calm, undulging in a wry smile. The strange thing is, I rarely if ever engage with this morning’s rude accusers – Alex/PNR and King – which makes their abuse all the more mysterious. Often as not I can’t understand what the hell they’e talking about!
Criticism of shallow opinion is justified, personal abuse a loser. I enjoy mature comment, especially when it brings with it insight and wit – hence I respond to yours. Good, informed posts seem to be thin on the ground of late, and I’m not the only poster to notice.
The recommendations for greater powers from the three main political parties is my current obsession – probably like you, am not expecting great things, pretty sure one will cancel out the other and the parties will squabble. But I look forward to Stuart’s forensic analysis and follow-up.
Nana, if you feel like that, take a break for a week or so. Some people need to get certain things out of their system, and it’s better to do that than bottle it in.
Stuart will be back from holiday soon, and a more regular routine will resume!
The decisions from the broadcasters WILL be contested in court.
Lochside: Remember Greg Dyke was removed by political pressure from heading up the BBC by Alistair Campbell and the Labour party’s pressure to remove him over the Hutton report.
Whatever government is in power the BBC gets it in the neck. The state broadcaster must be tamed, brought into line. One easy way to secure obsequiesness is to threaten or actually to withdraw funds. The hidden agenda is to force the BBC into becoming a capitalist corporation, out for maximum profit and audience figures. In that both Labour and the current Tories have been very successful.
For the Referendum they did not deal with Scotland’s aspirations in a serious way – they dufused debate in ‘balanced’ panel-audience shows, celebrity visits, and spurious questions from ‘heavy-weight’ interviewers.
@ Iain Gray’s Subway Lament
The sense of entitlement is the “Establishment” in essence. The Media are only a subset.
Read Owen Jones’ book.
Better still go to the event and talk to him on 22nd October..
http://www.word-power.co.uk/viewEvent.php?id=3161
@Betty Boo – Elizabeth, if you want to see a Lochgelly tawse I have one in the house. We had two but I don’t know where the other one went to.
Solidifying my points for the Smith Commission, I think that it is important to make complementary points to the political submissions. In fact, it is critical that the YES grassroots movement stresses that we are the involved participants and that our viewpoints need to be understood and our concerns answered. In fact, why are we not represented on the commission?
We must all work as one to expose the liars and destroy the media.
Fail to do this and we’ll continue to piss against the wind.
@
David Stevenson
Never a member but did vote for them as a second choice after SNP in some election.
I liked there Independent, Socialist polemic then the Sheridan thing happened and they became toxic.
Strange that.
Anyhoo if anyone wants cheered up watch Naomi Wolf at the Hope over Fear rally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPhRmcOBuH4
schrodingers cat says:
28 September, 2014 at 10:01 am
The unionists should look to their own leaders, why refuse devo max on the ballot paper and bring britain so close to the edge and then offer it at the last minute?
I know the answer, we will get nothing from the unionists, that you can be assured, labours devo nano was a complete joke, as Stu rightly pointed out
but devo max was offered, not devo plus, and this means FFA. this is why wullie rennie is back tracking and calling for a resistance to an “ultra-extreme” form of devolution. It is FFA he is refering to.
never fear, we wont get anything like FFA in the negotiations. I hope the tories do renege on their promises, labour will die the death in May 2015, along with the libdems
But this betrayal and reneging by westminster will be the focus of our manifesto in May
FFA this will remove any questions of subsidy and prove one way or the other who is telling the truth, I’ll wager it isnt westminster.
Scottish Mp’s will be forced to tow the SNP MP’s party line and refrain from voting on english only laws. Indeed, the only thing left to vote on will be defence and foriegn affairs. The 57 MP’s will move to Calton hill and become the defacto upper chamber to Holyrood, they can vote on westminster defense issues electronically. In the case of major issues, like going to war, they would retain the right to attend the HOC for the debates
Notice how the issue of a referendum and or independence has been put on a back burner, at least until after may 2015, this will be a vote winner with those who wanted devo max and not independence. This will also give us 2 bites at the cherry. I beleive that the next stage from FFA to independence is such a small step any way that it will happen in time, probably the issue being forced by the EU referendum
@ Nana Smith, 2:04pm
I’m trying to hold it together after our defeat but its difficult to battle against negativity outwith YES and coming onto Wings was a support I needed each day.
Lately it’s not been great so timeout is what I must have.
Nana, can I suggest that you just take yourself to Off Topic for a while where folks post in a much more relaxed way – it really is the chill lounge and you can get a daily helping of good humour there to lift the spirits.
That would mean you can keep in touch if you don’t want to bother with the huge dollops of ego flying about whilst folk try to get over their disappointments.
It would be a shame if anyone felt they had to stop visiting Wings because of the poor behaviour of recent days.
o/t exists for that purpose
except lochside, in the absence of articles from stu
i cannot see what the topic is and how we can go off topic
Grizzle @ 10.48, you are spot on. I have joined facebook, something I vowed was only for sado’s, to view some of the links from this page. I must say the Indie pages on FB are more inclusive and encouraging. Having said that the general content on here is much more informative and the links are great. I am hopeful of a return to the energetic and witty tone when The Rev returns.
Now I’m not in any way an apologist for Tommy Sheridan but I do not believe in tarring someone as a bad person unless I know the real facts Here’s a potted history of TS.
Born 7 March 1964, Glasgow and is presently co-convenor of Solidarity.
He was active as a Militant tendency member in the Labour Party until 1989 but was expelled and joined Scottish Militant Labour (SML), which became the main part of the SSP. As such he campaigned against the Community Charge and was jailed for six months after attending a warrant sale in 1991 after Glasgow Sheriff Court served a court order banning his presence.
In 2000 and 2002, he was again jailed over the non-payment of fines levied for a breach of the peace at demonstrations against the nuclear fleet at the Faslane.
In 2006, he was involved in the case of Sheridan v News International, an action for defamation against the News of the World, he won and was awarded £200,000 in damages. The next year he was charged with perjury for having told lies to the court in his defamation case and in the next few weeks, six of his relations and colleagues also got charged. In October 2010, he and his wife Gail were on trial for perjury. The charges against his wife were withdrawn but, on 23 December 2010, Tommy got convicted for perjury and, on 26 January, he was sentenced to three years imprisonment. In the light of the News of the World phone hacking affair, the Crown Office has been ordered to reassess the case. Tommy Sheridan got out of prison in January 2012 under automatic early release rules.
On 11 November 2004, Sheridan, citing his wife Gail’s pregnancy as the reason, stepped down as SSP convener. Later it came out the party’s executive committee had unanimously forced Sheridan to resign claiming he had allegedly confirmed stories about an unnamed MSP were about him and he was going to take legal action against the newspaper. Then the News of the World named him as the MSP they claimed had an extramarital affair and had visited a swingers’ club in Manchester. The party refused to back him in his action against the NotW and Tommy branded those who refused to support him as “scabs”. The minutes of the meeting about Sheridan’s resignation were subpoenaed by News International and, after refusing to release them to the Court of Session, Alan McCombes was jailed for 12 days by Judge Lady Smith. At an emergency meeting of the party’s National Council, it was agreed the minutes should be handed over with only 60 delegates opposed so as to secure McCombes’ release.
The minutes had a discussion by the party’s executive about an article alleging a married MSP had visited a swingers’ club in Manchester and the minute claimed Sheridan admitted he had visited the club twice with friends. Some at the meeting gave evidence they heard Sheridan say he had been “reckless”, and with hindsight it had been “a mistake” . Sheridan claims the minute was not correct.
Eleven members, said Sheridan admit visiting the swingers’ club and three other members gave evidence Sheridan made no such statement. The minutes recorded Sheridan left the meeting early, but had said, “, “He did not believe there was any evidence which would prove him to be lying. He did not accept that he should admit the visits to the club and felt that no-one should comment on private lives”.
At the annual conference of the SSP in 2005, Sheridan was elected to the SSP executive and at the March 2006 conference, he was elected as party co-chair. Sheridan then said he was leaving the SSP accusing the SSP of being part of “the mother of all stitch-ups” involving their leadership, MI5 and News International. So there you go. In view of the NotW eventual crash and the NotW folks convictions for phone hacking, among other things, can anyone fail to doubt much of the claims against Tommy ?
I see the Tories are on the verge of selling off Eurostar, and all its UK based assets,(state owned) though some politicians have asked for an inquiry due to the botched sale of Royal mail.
France owns 55% of Eurostar
UK owns 45% of Eurostar
Belgium owns 5% of Eurostar
Andy B
Bet the French end up with the UK 45%. They EU state owned companies have been quick to gobble up stakes in the UK sell offs.
@ morag
“A lot of people typed a lot about the voting process and the count needing to be overseen, for example, but then when the Wings referendum agents needed volunteers to do the job, they were short of people.
Some posters seem to think the leafleting fairies do the job. Or the phantom canvassers. However, I think a lot of the increase in membership seen by the SNP (and the other parties) in the past month may reflect a substantial number of people who realised maybe their country needs them, and have resolved to get out there and do something.
”
i agree with this, which was why i was asking about plans to deal with the new members earlier in this thread. I think that our first priority in this constituency is to engage the new members, i too believe we spent too much time leafleting, and were short of people to cover all of the polling stations in my area of this constituency, I think that with a few more activists doing the leg work, much of this more mundane activist work could be localised and sped up immensly, leaving the members more time to canvass and other important activity, eg, helping out others in other constituencies.
on that note Morag,i had a look at dumfries and galloway uk and holyrood constituencies, much more difficult than the fife constituencies to correlate, eg, D&G uk, doesnt include dumfries and while moving north it follows a very similar area, it suddenly swings to the east, missing out lanark but taking in Biggar. It actually looks very contrived to produce a tory majority. But I still think your group would benefit from seeing what a “notional” result for the holyrood 2011 for your constituency looks like before you decide where your efforts are best employed. have a look at the following from kirkcaldy and glenrothes, bear in mind, this is the constituency which many believe that any indy party has no chance, even survations poll indicated this to be the case, i dont think so.
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath UK Constituency =
Combined Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath HE Constituencies
+ Inverkeithing, Rosyth, Methil, Buckhaven and Wemyss
– Auchterderren and Cardenden
Ward 5 Rosyth 2012 council elections
SNP 1076
Lab 1049
Tory 223
Lib 275
35% turnout
Ward 23 Methil, Buckhaven and Wemyss 2012 council elections
SNP 830
Lab 2162
Lab 732
Independent 1307
Independent 153
Lib 21
36% turnout
Not possible to separate Inverkeithing Auchterderren and Cardenden results from Council results but similar populations
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath 2005 GE
Labour 24,278 G.Brown Chancellor
SNP 6,062
Tories 4,308
Libdem 5,450
58% turnout
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Combined 2007 HE notional
Lab 24240
SNP 17040
Torys 6190
Libdem 7450
Turnout 45%
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath 2010 GE
Lab G Brown 29,559
SNP 6,550
Tories 4,258
Libdems 4,269
Turnout 45%
SNP fail to get their voters to turn out
Lab get their voters to turn out with an extra 5000 as brown is PM
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Combined 2011 HE
Lab, 24300
SNP 23400
Tory 3685
Libdem 1422
46% turnout
Kirkcaldy 2011 HE
SNP D. Torrance 12579 45.2 +11.9
Labour M. livingstone 12397 44.6 -0.5
Tory (No Change) 2,007
Libdem (meltdown) 890
Turnout 45%
SNP get their voters to turn out 3K of Libdems defect to SNP
Cowdenbeath 2011 HE
Lab, Helen Eadie 11,926 46.5 +3.4
SNP I. Chisholm 10,679 41.6 +13.1
Tory (No Change) 1,792
Libdem (meltdown) 997
Turnout 46%
SNP get their voters to turn out, 3K of Libdems defect to SNP
Cowdenbeath 2014 HE by election
Lab A Rowley 11,192 55.78 +9.2
SNP N. McGarry 5,704 28.43 -13.17
Tory (No Change) 1,893
Libdem (meltdown) 425
Turnout 38%
SNP fail to get their voters to turn out and/or no support from defected Libdems
Kenny likes Britain to the evil empire. A little unsettling to find someone recycling Reagan’s warmongering rhetoric. But his implication (Kenny’s, not Ronnie’s) seems to be that Scotland is a colony.
Of course, if Scotland were a colony, then it would be obligatory for all progressive people to support its aspiration to independence. So the first question has to be, is Scotland a colony? When you look at the British Empire, you can see that Ireland, Malaya, Kenya etc. were indeed colonies, exploited and ruled by a foreign ruling class. But their situations were quite unlike Scotland’s. To conclude that Scotland is a colony, you have to misunderstand the whole history of empire. Look at all the histories of the Empire: their virtually unanimous conclusion is that Britain does not now contain in its borders anything that could be called a colony.
You can only reject the historians’ virtually unanimous conclusions if you also reject all the evidence they present. That is the only way you can reject the conclusion.
It’s interesting that John Prescott reclassified the BBC license as a tax . It is now recognised as a tax ( ask some from the Channel Islands if it is?) yet the SNP are not to be represented in the TV debates?
What’s that about no taxation without representation?
Schrodinger: devo max was offered
Well, the press interpreted it as that without actually defining it – I told it means all powers in full except foreign policy and sovereignty – blocking Scotland from ever maturing as a nation by taking a place in international affairs.
What ‘Devo-Max’ means to the three unionist parties is a completely different matter.
Considering all of them refused any new powers point blank before the poll that implied Yes was one per cent ahead, we can safely assume they won’t offer full powers after the No vote. I expect nothing but smoking mirrors.
minus O2
have always felt trial against T Sheridan was unfair , as every witness against him had at one time or another received payment from News International which I felt at the time made it’unsafe to proceed’
Robert…you gonna give a summary of other prominent politicians lives? Just for some perspective?
You’d find some perspective methinks.
Im not a socialist but Tommy has a way of challenging the establishment which is the most criminal of behaviour when the establishment themselves are thieves and murderers (yes i do mean murderers).
Just my point on the ongoing spats etc, people leaving, this site used to be so good etc etc.
It’s obviously because the Rev is on holiday and will not start posting until after his break.
Things will settle down again when he returns so I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
For the folk getting fed up, just return when the rev is up and running.
I was at the Hope over Fear event and it was excellent.
the speakers were inspirational, I was in tears when Mairie? spoke about her devastation at the result, thinking she had let people down but her mum saying you are their hope etc.
The union guy talking about visiting people’s homes and they were too ashamed to let him in due to their poverty.
My own thoughts on Tommy is he has done his punishment, he is a great asset to the campaign and the amount of publicity yesterdays event has got is keeping folk focussed.
I loved the Peoples Republic of Dundee guys.
There are several events coming up, a food bank collection outside the hotel where SLAB are having their annual dinner 30th Oct I think- I hope they choke, a V for vendetta mask event in both Glasgow and Edinburgh.
So lots to keep us occupied until the Rev returns – don’t get despondant
@ Bill Dale, 2:49pm
In fact, it is critical that the YES grassroots movement stresses that we are the involved participants and that our viewpoints need to be understood and our concerns answered. In fact, why are we not represented on the commission?
Good point, Bill. As it is, I am concerned that we have a bias towards unionists on the commission. How can that be fair when we had a question which has only one of two answers? Each side should be equally represented although there should only be one side, that of Scotland and what is best for this country.
We should all make sure we make a contribution to the Smith Commission and make our “demands” as comprehensive as possible, including, as Gavin Lessells has reminded us, control of broadcasting in Scotland, Crown Estates, the establishment of a Scottish Treasury, retaining and enshrining power over already devolved issues such as education, NHS, law, etc., in addition to FFA. Jings, just give us independence!! Much easier.
On the other point you made, why am I not surprised that you a couple of Lochgelly tawses at home? Thanks for the offer, but, I think I can live without the need to see the implements. I was simply suggesting to BtP that we might have need of one here to encourage better behaviour!
Grouse beater:
‘Whatever government is in power the BBC gets it in the neck’….well apparently not in Scotland!…I recall AS delivering a large fully documented series of complaints specifically about BBC bias to Chris Patten a wee while ago, that yielded precisely…Nowt!!
‘The hidden agenda is to force the BBC into becoming a capitalist corporation, out for maximum profit and audience figures’…..frankly GrouseBeater, I don’t give a damn….they can get the great bleeder, Gordon Brown to use his incredible negotiating powers to auction it off to highest bidder…it’s not fit for Scotland’s democratic purpose.That’s my and it should be you and all of our agenda!
‘ In that For the Referendum they did not deal with Scotland’s aspirations in a serious way – they dufused debate in ‘balanced’ panel-audience… etc.’….On the contrary dear Grouser…they dealt very seriously indeed with Scotland’s aspirations…they fucking well ground those aspirations into the dirt with bare faced political manipulation and manufactured lies!
It occurs to me grouser ,as an ex BBC exec that you are, possibly are suffering from the same myopia as Derek Bateman when it comes to analysing your old employer’s guilt and culpability in betraying us.
The BBC is public enemy no. 1 . We should have had demonstrations ongoing since the start outside Pacific Quay and a mass non payment of the licence fee. I have participated in two of those demos and I have cancelled my licence fee. Wings and others can back these actions, but politicians i.e. the SNP must now go on the offensive politically and openly against the BBC.
The SG are the only legitimate leaders and guardians of our movement…they must show themselves worthy of that duty and purpose. Otherwise the movement will shrink and tail off…like 1979… slow its momentum.. and our country will steadily lose its young and creative talents as disillusion sets in…If that happens Scotland will be lost.
We must push our political leaders to fight tooth and nail for Independence..but control and accountability must come first and foremost from the State Broadcaster long before the whitebread pap emanates from the Smith Commission and we get too close to the GE.
People often say that there’s no definition of Devo-Max. Well, that was the problem, and it’s one the Unionists make to try to bring it down to the minimum package of powers they can get away with and solve the “Scotch Problem”. They would happily deliver another 2p tax-varying power, and call it “Devo-Max”.
Some time ago I emailed a “senior member” of the SNP as the papers say, and was lucky to receive a reply. In my email I suggested the SNP take ownership of Devo-Max, and fully define it.
I’m not printing the reply here for obvious reasons. But this bit almost summarises it: “The trap being set is one of powers without funding.”.
However, it’s not the SNP have taken ownership of Devo-Max, it’s the Scottish Government, in their paper submitted to the Smith Commission. Please read it:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0046/00460563.pdf
I think we, whatever our pro-indy party or none, need to put our trust in the Scottish Government (not the unionist opposition), that they know exactly what they’re doing – and support it. Nicola Sturgeon has said that Indeepdnence is at her core, so it’s not a cop-out, just a neccessary step in the right directon.
Nana, check out www(dot)indyscot(dot)info. This site carries lots of listings for various Yes meetings, stalls, talks, rallies etc.
Easy to fill in and then round robin emails sent out on their main site to contributors and members of site.
Love your idea, akin to The Common being promoted by The Commonweal to establish a cafe type facility in as many places as possible for groups, individuals and meetings to organise.
For my own area I have set up a fortnightly Yes Social in the local pub, whose landlords are very supportive. They book a snug in the dining area or, if busy give us free use of lounge upstairs. Held on a Wed. Night it brings in additional sales and custom and gives everyone a chance to meet up with like minded people to chat, support, exchange news, ideas etc.
Looking to expand no’s to possibly include food bank donation support, local newsletter for local community notification on social media, computer help, training and support to bring people up to speed on FB, a Twitter and pro Indy sites and news outlets. Lots of chat and a few drinks never hurt.
At the back of this social idea is the bedrock of, community activity with a view to gathering a canvassing team for GE15, promoting Indy vote over any Union politician and organising this info, creating structure to help older people and youth get help to be included or involved in the community.
Community gardens was another idea to help feed the kids and pass on useful knowledge, arts workshops leading to skills in banners and placards, phone contacts, local email networks etc etc.
Indirect discussion in community groups through social activity might work best to get through to people with limited access to new media with entrenched views. Once they know you and share interests and activities they might trust your input more.
Just trying new things to keep active and grow local communications, encourage all participants to chat to elderly neighbours, family and friends.
Organic growth in every community has to take its own form, whatever works, but should all involve the central idea of working, directly or indirectly towards the acceptance of the idea that Scotland would thrive when independent.
We should do what we can, wherever we are, with whatever means are at our disposal to help grow our communities and the idea of Independence as a natural extension of that idea!
Brilliant to know so many others are all thinking along the same lines even if they are using different ingredients to get there, so thank you for that!
That is why WOS is so successful. Knowing that no matter how isolated you feel in your own circumstances that you are not alone. We are legion, we are everywhere.
Trick is to find someway of bringing people together or in being able to recognise fellow travellers.
I still wear my Yes badge, makes recognition easier and reminds people that the fight is not over, at least until Smith commission concedes to FFA or Devo Max, then we will see!
@ (i)STARLAW(/i)
I hold no candle for Tommy and at the time of his prosecution thought that he got what he deserved.
However the later revelations about the News of the Screws paying people before they testified, or promising the money after, rendered that an unsafe prosecution. No 1
Now we have the news of a convicted liar and perjurer, who was central witness for the Prosecution. No 2
Finally the fact that someone leaked a video of Gail Sheriden being questioned by Police. That had can only be described as a very serious attempt to place his innocent wife in a state of fear and intimidation worthy of a Police State. No 3
Tommy of course, didn’t help himself by getting involved with a slanging match with his erstwhile political partners and sexual ones also.
He is a totemic personality and has worked his socks off for a Yes vote in the Referendum.
I wonder if he will join the SNP or stay outside?
For me, I am not yet ready to make a judgement on him and await what is arriving soon, and what he will make of it.
Robert Peffers, I always felt that the Establishment wanted rid of Tommy, he was involving people in politics, those people that were “best served by the Labour Party” and it I think they set out to get him. I have no idea why the party decided to get involved but as far as I am concerned I could never consider them because of what they did.
As I said yesterday that if Ian Brotherhood was leading the SSP I might consider it because Ian has always come over to me as decent.
@Bill McLean says:13 October, 2014 at 9:44 am:
“Interesting story about BT frightening a pensioner that they would remove her pension book”.
Never heard about removal of pension books but spoke with two different OAPs in my local area who each claimed callers at their door had told them if Scotland got independence their pensions would stop as the UK would then be a foreign country. Further questions got descriptions of youngish student types with Northern English accents but one described as a tallish female and the other as a medium height stocky male.
As far as challenging peoples’ committment to Indy is concered, or accusing them of being a troll, some can be found elsewhere. For instance the following post pro-indy comments and rip unionists apart with their bare fingers on the Gruniad, or did do when I did (dadsarmy):
Grouse Beater
Schroedinger’s cat
Muttley
Heedtracker
Macart
Perhaps others can add to that list. Watching out for trolls is a good idea. Accusing people on the wrong is a very bad idea.
Ed Miliband went to great lengths in his conference speech about the NHS(which he mentioned 18 times) and a fair wage for hard work.
Today saw the first strike in over 30 years by NHS staff in England and N.Ireland.
Where is Miliband’s support for them?
Here is his twitter feed:
https://twitter.com/Ed_Miliband
No support there!!
Here is his article in the Observer on Saturday 11 October
https://archive.today/Xt0wW
An extract:
“And we will invest in our NHS so it meets the challenges of this century as it did in the last by paying for the thousands of extra nurses, doctors, home-care-workers and midwives needed for them to have the time to care for patients and relieve pressure on hospital services.”
So, nothing about the forthcoming strike or his view on the NHS Pay Review body recommendation of 1% , which was ignored by the UK Government.
Miliband Labour Party is as bad at the Tories and the Lib Dems. He is certainly not showing any support for the working people in England.
In contrast, the Scottish Govt paid NHS Scotland staff the recommended pay rise in full:
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/oct/anger-england-shows-need-scottish-choices
The Labour Party- The Red Tories indeed
@gb
completely agree
they didnt define it but as is pointed out, there are many federal countries in this world and the definition of federalism no more needs to be defined than devo max
that apart, will nicola be blamed for any failure of the commission? absolutly.
will we get anything like devo max from the commission? not a chance
can we force the full fiscal autonomy as the platform for may ge?, yes we can. it is also supported by many in the no camp
if we get enough mps elected on this ticket in 2015, AND there is a hung parlaiment, it might be possible, it would also solve the ev4el’s issue and might be a popular choice with the right, especially as it can be argued it would remove english “subsidies” ahem
Podmore: Britain does not now contain in its borders anything that could be called a colony.
At that point your hypothesis disintegrates.
Britain is not one country.
The definition of ‘colonise’ need go no further than one nation state governing another, withdrawing from the subservient state its wealth in taxes and natural resources, returning to it an annual allowance. By that definition alone, without going into vetos over wars, or representing its interests internationally, Scotland is a colonised country.
The extent of any new powers offered will determine how far Scotland is still colonised, or how much it has moved towards self-governance.
Lochside: they fucking well ground those aspirations into the dirt with bare faced political manipulation and manufactured lies!
I think you’ll find we are saying the same thing but using different language. See my blog and its essay on the BBC.
What we seem to differ on is, wanting a state broadcaster. I want a public broadcaster unaccountable to government, and lots of smaller cable companies serving their local area, some programmes shown nationally.
internal colonisation.
@Defo. As a Winger of longevity I would,nt be so presumptious as to claim ownership of this site, there is only One Owner the Rev Stuart Campbell. & many of us are respectfull of that fact, longevity or not. We welcome all even if its ah Wee Ginger Dug wie Purple Spots ( canny think of a UKIP joke ).
agreed btp
that members of socialist parties argued and fell out with each other is not proof of tommys guilt, au contaire, c’est leur raison d’etre, as far as i can see
but in light of the notw under hand dealings and coulsons conviction, i think tommy should challenge his conviction
it is looking very shoogley now and this might bring closure to this whole sorry episode
i hope that all these disparate socialist groups can unite again, i believe it would be in the interests of scotland if they did
Update on scared pensioners unaware of the appalling state of UK pensions and benefits. here’s the conclusion of the EU Committee of Social Rights 2013 from http://welfaretales.wordpress.com/
(GREAT BRITAIN)
………
17. Article 12 .Right to social security
Paragraph 1 Existence of a social security system ……………….
19. Conclusion
The Committee concludes that the situation in United Kingdom is not in conformity with Article 12§1 of the Charter on the ground that:
the minimum levels of short-term and long-term incapacity benefit is manifestly inadequate;
the minimum level of state pension is manifestly inadequate;
the minimum level of job seeker’s allowance is manifestly inadequate
read the entire report from the European Commission of Social Rights here: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/socialcharter/conclusions/State/UKXX2_en.pdf
@Bugger ( the panda )Did you huv tae mention Snakes when talking aboot the Lochgely Twase, huv you read ma post from last night after 8 an ah dont mean ah Mint wan.
@yesindyref2
There is a guy called Hootsmoneditor on the Graun I quite like…
Hey guys, while you are all busy bumping your gums about whatever, the debate is moving on;
Have a look at this, then vote in their poll, currently sitting around 53%.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/poll/2014/oct/13/leaders-debates-general-election-2015-nigel-farage
Schrodinger: Will we get anything like devo max from the commission? not a chance
Totally agree. The UK Treasury has already made plain its complete antagonism to devolved powers, and indeed went so far in its quest to retain full control of fiscal matters by releasing the infamous ‘RBS to leave Scotland cold’ memo … the illegal memo nobody is keen to investigate.
When faced with that sort of evidence, holding out hope for benign gifts of full-fat financial power is delusional.
@Conan
Narcissistic chancer.
luigi
There is no offer of “all powers except defence and foreign affairs” on any table, merely vague allusions. The fabled “vow” contains no actual proposals of any sort.
There is zero chance of, for instance, of us getting oil and gas revenues which in reality was what the referendum was actually about
@Bugger
Pleased to meet you…
@schrodingers cat says: 13 October, 2014 at 10:22 am:
“im not settling for devo max, FFA, i just think that in the next 6 months, this is the vehicule we must ride towards independence.”
I think you are missing the implications of what I’m aiming at, schrodingers cat.
There is a review in place just now by the Good Lord chosen by the Westminster Establishment who has requested the views on Scotland’s independence from members of the public.
My view is this, “As long as the de facto parliament of the country of England remains an integral part of the United Kingdom Parliament I cannot accept any form of devolved rule by that parliament. England must have a devolved parliament and thus equal treatment for all UK countries.”
So just what is the Good Lord going to do with thousands of such replies to his request for our views? It may not change Westminster’s mind but it sure as hell will upset their sleep at nights.
Andy-B
That Eurostar really does go further!! 🙂
France owns 55% of Eurostar
UK owns 45% of Eurostar
Belgium owns 5% of Eurostar
@Robert Peffers –
re ‘royal prerogative, the Crown in Parliament’ etc, no worries, just thought I’d ask.
Wouldn’t put it past them to do anything to avoid going through all that again. And who could blame them?
@ Scot Finlayson 2.56
Thanks for the link to the Naomi Woolf speech at the Hope Over Fear rally. I just watched it and thought she had some interesting evidence on the vote.
Pathetic that we have to wait till individuals manage to upload personal videos of speeches. If we had a public service broadcaster then they would have covered such an important event!
Will Podmore:
You display a naïve trust in ‘historians’ and their veracity in all things concerned with the subject of ‘Colonies’. For instance: David Starkey…would you believe anything that dribbled out of his mouth?
What about ‘economists’?….no….well what about Westminster politicians? OK, I give up.
Britain, as has been noted, is not an entity, it’s a geographical area. However, Scotland is a country and it is ‘exploited and ruled by a foreign ruling class’. It is no different from Ireland (one of your own examples)as it was pre 1916 rebellion, there were Unionists and English/Norman ascendancy elites ruling it and exploiting its indigenous people. Incidentally, as has also been mentioned by @Bugger ‘Internal Colonisation’ is a recognised political form of imperialism..look up Michael Hechter who wrote about England’s relationship with Scotland back in the ’70s. It might give you a different perspective from the ‘historians’ you’ve been reading.
Therefore on that basis Will do you agree that it’would be obligatory for all progressive people to support its (Scotland)aspiration to independence’.
After all, we’ve answered your first question ‘Is Scotland a colony?’
Conan: There is a guy called Hootsmoneditor on the Graun I quite like…
I’ve spotted his posts too; uses a lot of neat inverted sarcasm.
Will McEwan says:
13 October, 2014 at 4:24 pm
luigi
There is no offer of “all powers except defence and foreign affairs” on any table, merely vague allusions. The fabled “vow” contains no actual proposals of any sort.
There is zero chance of, for instance, of us getting oil and gas revenues which in reality was what the referendum was actually about
Indeed, but I think we agree that we have to go through the “more powers” motions, just to show the 55% that we are reasonable, and willing to give them this last chance.
And when they fail to deliver, then it’s full steam ahead to the next referendum.
Unfortunately, Ian Brotherhood, who seems a decent guy, was not a member at the time of the Tommy Sheridan accusations. The SSP is now an anti Tommy Sheridan Party. As seemingly, that is all they can talk about, still.
As for being paid, Rupert Murdoch actually advertised for dirt on Tommy and offered a large cash reward. It is no secret that some members were aid £20K for their articles. His former best man was given £100k for his attempted fit up video.
Andy Coulson, who was allowed to throw a sickie at the NoW’s last appeal trial, will be cited from his prison cell and forced to appear at Tommy’s re-trial next year.
I don’t see why we should be dragged into this matter and forced to go ever and over it again. I am more conferenced about Scottish Independence than the revenge of the residual SSP. There is no possible rational discussion on this matter with members who are obsessed to the point of shouting everyone down within hearing range. They are a one tune fiddle. Their absence from the Square was hardly noticed.
@Lanarkist
Thanks for posting that link. Useful for tracking some of the smaller events that don’t get mentioned much elsewhere.
The more people who know about all Yes events, the more can come along, and the bigger and more visible they become. The BBC and MSM can deny the movement’s existence till they’re blue in the face, but they can’t stop people seeing us with their own eyes.
@Nana Smith
I feel your pain. So close to just bailing out of here myself before the whole site just implodes into a mess of people bashing each other’s parties.
@donald anderson
Didn’t know you were such an expert on what the SSP were up to lately. Do you know someone in there?
Last I heard they couldn’t care less what Sheridan was up to. Bigger things to worry about with this independence campaign, which does seem a little more important than digging up stuff that everyone else should have forgotten about and left in the past where it belongs.
We prefer to leave the mud-slinging to others. Like some of the people on here for example!
@ Conan
Thanks Alan,
@mr peffer
“So just what is the Good Lord going to do with thousands of such replies to his request for our views? It may not change Westminster’s mind but it sure as hell will upset their sleep at nights.”
i doubt he will even read them, i wont hold my breath for anything meaningful from the commission.
If power devolved is power retained, why is WM so reluctant
Re the english parlaiment, i agree that this is what WM is, always has been, im no more happy to be dictated to by WM anymore than any other indy supporter, but the state of affairs we find ourselves in is what it is
the question is what to do about it?
@ Betty Boop. It was myself that mentioned the Lockgelly Fivefingered Twase & John King weilding it to get people to behave on here Lochgellys,s were made singles & up to fivefingered 1″ to 3″ wide.here endith the lesson on the Lochgelly Twase,ah good the lunch time bell, noo where did ah put ma free dinner ticket.
@ Ronnie anderson.
Apologies to you sir, if my comment was too sweeping.
In my opinion,you have never been anything other than a credit to this site, Scotland and yer maw mate. 🙂 And a fine example for others, myself included.
I’m naming nobody, I doubt they would recognise my view anyhoo.
As others have said, hopefully when the dust has settled, and the evil cybernat controller is back in the saddle, ‘normal’ service will resume.
If not, then people Will drift away, leaving a small core of commenters.
In summary, some people need to learn when it’s apt to shut the fuck up.
Luigi, I hear you pal.
I agree. For now – we must propose Devo Max. I’m not giving up on Indy, but we fight for proper and powerful change rather than a bit part which is being offered by the Union parties.
We all know that Devo Max (which I think we advocating it know exactly what it is, Scotland to control EVERYTHING bar foreign affairs, defence and citizenship).
They’ll never grant it though. They won’t let us get all that power because a)it’ll weaken their revenue and b)it will naturally lead to independence.
So, we bite our tongue and put indy on the back burner for now, as in at least hearing out this Smith Commission and what it will return.
The minute nothing new or Calamn Part II is offered. We fight on again.
SNP and Greens are in a win-win situation. They are committed to the Smith Commission, mopping up new members in the last month and even from the soft No voters getting a sense of good will to them for ‘losing’ the vote as well.
Honestly, we’ll back in those booths in 5 years time.
I have no doubt at all about that. The shear panic and fear the Unionists had the week before the vote and the blind promises will be what leads to the end of the Union.
Scotland will be independent by 2019 (unless, they give us Devo Max, then it’ll be 2023 or so 😉
Keep on battling on!
@ Oneironaut
Over the years I’ve read and posted on a number of different forums, many of them nothing to do with politics, and the same thing always happens. A few rather over-enthusiastic and opinionated people show a lack of self-restraint which then prompts some of the calmer contributors to leave. The forum suffers as a result.
So I really hope you and Nana and the others don’t go!
@ Ronnie Anderson, 5:02pm
LOL – thanks Ronnie for putting me right. I hope that’s no three of the belt for me getting it wrong.
No wonder BtP was confused by my comment! 🙂
Glad to see you on here today – we need some commonsense!
Schrodinger’s cat, thanks for that. We think the Dumfries, Clydesdale and Tweeddale constituency was just what was left over after they’d carved up some more logical ones. Suddenly Tweeddale, part of the Borders, has to turn its back and start working with two quite different local authorities. The only sane place to have CA meetings is in Moffat, God help us.
I guess we take our cue from the party leadership, and I think they want to give the seat a fight – partly based on the hope that UKIP, who are said to have the seat as their top target, might split the Tory vote. I just wouldn’t like to think I spent hours and days leafleting upper Tweeddale, uselessly, if the people in Edinburgh South for example were needing a hand to get rid of bloody Murray. (I did it in 2010, but even at the time I saw it as a familiarisation exercise because I was new to the area, looking to 2011 when we did take the SP seat. Now, I can tell you where every bloody letter-box is.)
Having said that, most of our activists live further away from the metropolis and might not really be able to help anywhere but their own constituency, or maybe Mickey Moore’s.
Onyway, the point about the ScotGov having defined Devo-Max is that anything Smith delivers short of that, won’t be Devo-Max, or (Gordon Brown) “as near Federalism as you can get”.
It’s a question then whether the 78% who want Devo-Max will believe it has been delivered it – or not.
It’s win-win for the SG / SNP – and eventual Indy – 2, 3 or 5 years down the line.
The unionist parties are now “caught in a trap”. I’m feeling musical again, but I’d better not!
@Conan
Hootsmoneditor sounds like a right chancer …
@Nana Smith Dont you dare leave WOS or I,ll come up there an take yer milk allowance ( nae calcium ) an yer teeth faw oot,awe am sounding like a BTer threatning pensioners,SoS Nanayou hiv ma permission tae swing the Lochgelly Twase ma hawns need a warm up.
Big XXX n Hugs Nana,an ma new names no Huggy Bear.
Nana Smith.
I hope your not going anywhere Nana. We would lose one of the best on this site. What an education you’ve given me.
Folk are tetchy and short tempered. This was expected as folk take disappointment differently. I think we are trying to find our feet again.
I am with you in spirit. Nana . I still feel down and tetchy myself. It’s not a bad idea to take a few days. Stu will be back on song soon and we can get on with the business of freeing this country.
This weekend has shown that we have support and once things settle and we have an aim , we’ll go back to business , Wings style. Your needed Nana – Big time.
@Nana – Lately it’s not been great so timeout is what I must have
Noooo Nana if you’re going I’m going with you, too much negativity without you and Lesley Anne
Ok
So how do we go about asking for a Judicial Review of the Referendum, based on non conforming ballot papers?
and how come the SNP haven’t said a dickie about this?
In regards to the Smith Commission: I reckon the SNP choosing John Swinney, Linda Fabiani shows they are motivated to get a deal on more powers. They are both amiable and not divisive, or hardliners. The Greens will go in and be co-operative. The Tories have chosen Annabel Goldie, who co-operated with the SNP between 2007-2011. I know they have also chosen Professor Tompkins…However, they have said their offer is the floor and not the celling of any deal, which hints that they are up for at least trying to get a compromise. The Liberal Democrats have chosen Michael Moore, who is a moderate politician. I don’t see any advantage for the Liberal Democrats in not trying to get a deal, given their present situation. I would say that indicates that four parties, two pro-independence and two unionist, appear to be open to negotiating, and co-operating with each other fairly positively.
Of course that leaves SLAB…They have chosen Iain Gray and a low profile MP. it looks to me as if they are going to be Gordon Brown’s puppets. I can see them trying to wreck anything meaningful, and they will try to water down anything substantial. This is because they put more worth on the status of their MPs than the people of Scotland. They do not what substantially more powers because they are scared of EVEL.
The argument for oil and gas revenues belonging to Scotland are obvious.
It is important that the Smith Commission is made to deny the argument if they refuse to grant fiscal powers to Holyrood.
If these powers are not ours then they certainly do NOT belong to Westminster.
Conan_the_Librarian commented on Club membership increases.
@ David Stevenson
I knew Prof. Gregor Gall then, one of the founders of the SSP.
That any help?
As far as I can recall Prof Gregor Gall was not a founder member of the SSP. He joined along with the SWP. The SDWP was invited in and supported by all the Unionist factions, closets and otherwise. The SWP turned native and came out for Independence. The leading faction (ex Millies, the “International Socialist Movement)that wanted them in and later fell out with them. I opposed the SWP which was another subject of bureaucratic manoeuvring. The SWP had four aggregated in England, inviting SSP Executive members to appear on each. The SSP divided the discussion into four regions with the Executive turning up at each and supporting the motion for entry: much less fairer than the SWP. My argument with the SWP was not on Ireland, Cuba, Palestine, or Outer Mongolia, but on Scotland and Independence. I always found them fair on a personal level and was pleased when they finally adopted Independence. I cannot say that about the ISM, especially those I thought were comrades friends. I believe that they finally left the SSP.
As for David Stevenson, I always found him fair and with a sense of humour sadly lacking in many of the twitter and bisted ones.
I have no objection to having the matter aired here, or of SSP members having a verbal feast, but I can only guess that it will put many others off, as it did at the time of the SSP before their decline. Lemmings aff a cliff and all that.
Conan the Librarian, there used to be a Unionist using that name in the Hootsmon forum. It vanished and then there seemed to be a new user of that name for Independence. I assume you were the latter?
@Bugger
“So how do we go about asking for a Judicial Review of the Referendum, based on non conforming ballot papers?
and how come the SNP haven’t said a dickie about this?”
There is a police investigation going on at the moment about the postal votes; we all know it won’t come to anything, or at least anything that gets reported, but…
Lanarkist, thanks for that really interesting post. I think that’s such a constructive approach – tell us what you’re doing, what seems to be achievable and works in your area, so that other people can decide to try the same thing if they’re up for it.
Almost all the independence activists who emerged round here were women, which led to a “Women for Independence” drop-in day in the village a couple of weeks before the vote. (Having slagged off the central WFI leadership, I’m not extending that to local efforts.) On referendum day we were all saying that we didn’t want to break our wee group up, but we haven’t met since. I think we need to draw people in again, not as SNP but as Yes, and organise regular coffee and nibbles evenings at least for a start.
Conan
4 weeks and counting?
buzz, too late !
Not getting all conspiratorial or anything but just wondering, regarding the smith commission, what’s to stop this being a ‘fix’, whereby the commission is ‘swamped’ by requests saying five or six powers will suffice? Surely any tom, dick, or Harry could do that?
In the context of the referendum I’m struggling with the validity of this commission. I fear it will be a whitewash stating that the token gesture on offer took into account the ‘consensus’ of the scottish people.
To me, the very fact that there is a ‘commission’ means the vow is broken.
@ donald anderson
I met Gregor regularly when I worked in Stockbridge library.
He said he was a founder member coming from the SWP. I had no reason to disbelieve him as we mainly talked books, of what he had published, and what he was going to publish; which at that time was ‘The wit and wisdom of SSP’ and a biography of Tommy Sheridan.
It seemed to fit in.
I was a commenter on the Scotsman and Herald under this moniker from 2007 and started a wee blog attempting to rip the pish frae the Scotsman from 2009.
http://mypseudepigrapha.blogspot.co.uk/
Just did an extremely long reply to donald anderson which went into the ether.
@ Betty boop nae chancety of you getting the belt Betty,an watch whit yer sayin about me,( Commonsence me ) Jim give Betty her Tablets quik, & put her in a darkend room coal cellar should do nicely.
For a laugh…
Latest Ashcroft poll subsample sample for Scotland:
62% SNP
16% Lab
13% Con
5% UKIP
4% Lib
1% Green
Sure it’s a freak due to MoE on subsamples, but it is reflecting something big potentially going on. Same thing in all the UK polls; SNP making clear gains and Labour dropping like a stone.
You never know, SNP may yet turn into ‘Devo Max Party’ in effect. If that occurs, the silly SNP shares are possible. What I mean is if Scots have given up on Westminster – which is what Devo Max + Indy means, then voting for Westminster may no longer mean the same as it did in the past. Scots may no longer vote with the aim of getting Lab/Con/Lib etc into government (or to stop the first), but solely with one aim for the majority. That could change everything.
Now, nae bickering, there’s work to do.
@ donald anderson,
I’ve been Conan the Librarian since yon time, around 2007. See website.
Knew Gregor early oughts, assumed SWP folk were founder members of SSP, sorry.
Hi all, I mostly use Facebook and am used to a bit of moderation.
I rarely blog anywhere except wings, except maybe to complain to the BBC Smith Commision and all the good things I have learnt off you guys – too busy with local politics and such
So I feel that the quality of info, communication, sharing links and content is not improved by coarse Anglo Saxon – and as a Gaelic speaker I don’t have any swear words anyway (seriously-we have none) – but I have a whole ‘tense’ (possibly the subjective tense in English but I’m not sure) to use for inflecting intelligent and erudite curses on people (‘may one of your fingernails fall off every time you are needlessly offensive words to fellow wingers’)
To quote the Revs opening post
“We reserve the right to edit/remove comments at any time, for legal reasons or in the event of sustained personal abuse, trolling that’s aimed purely and intentionally at disrupting rather than promoting debate, or spam which somehow manages to evade Akismet. But you’ll have to try very hard indeed, and ignore repeated warnings, to have any sort of censorship for content applied here.”
So, lets keep this forum for what it was intended, and can we assume that any abuse reflects worse on the sender than on the recipient? Go raibh maigh agibh
Thought the commission was part of the Edinburgh Agreement no matter the result. Either a timetable for transferring powers or as it seems now a timetable for super-duper max.
Seems the SNP aren`t the only ones concerned about GE broadcasts.
http://rt.com/uk/195504-tv-debate-greens-lawsuit/
I’d like to see postings from people who were a NO or undecided right up to near the referendum, 2 weeks, or even on the day, who voted YES. To see:
1). Why were they a NO or undecided before
2). What made them change their minds
3). Are they now a firm YES, or still a bit undecided?
Clearly they couldn’t be jumped on and told they’re stupid, lazy, should have done more to spread the YES cause, they should just be listened to.
@Rev
Perhaps this would be a good topic when you’re back tomorrow, refreshed but spreading calomine lotion on the sunburn, munching into whelks and cockles, cracking the teeth on WSM rock, sending off those postcards …
The idea of a coffee morning, cafe meet would also work!
I just used the pub in the evening because it was available and the
Local cafe already had a swimmers club using it! Just talked to some keen local people who all expressed an interest and for them to invite others!
We are quite happy to see where it goes, willing to adapt or incorporate activities, groups and to help if we can. We could even set up secondary groups, meetings if that were required.
Looking to link into Community Council groups, kids groups, knitting groups introduced to yarn bombing, book groups with political slant, bridge clubs, helping older people decorate or shop or pick up prescriptions, anything really. Attempt to engage as many people as possible.
The local news letter seems to attract enthusiasm and we will ask for help from our local Community Trust with regard to paper and printing costs and editing setting out skills!
Everyone I talk to misses the camaraderie and feeling of belonging to something and the fun that went with it!
If something like this helps then that is a good thing. Community empowerment is at the core of it though, resilience, shared knowledge, shared effort and reward. It is not too heavy on speeches and analysis and is really for people to make new contacts and networks and start on their own priorities knowing that the main group will help, hug, listen and support wherever possible. It is the mutual support we all need at the moment.
We don’t know what will happen until we try, but we know nothing will happen if we don’t try!
I am open to trying anything. The main points being opening up the contact opportunities within the community, people knowing other people, telling them what is happening and why and getting a chance to get to know them and having opportunities to discuss political solutions indirectly.
If nothing else happens more people get to know more people in their communities, that can only be a positive thing. If it goes well we have engaged, involved, active, informed and committed helpers when it comes to distributing information to the wider community and more people who trust the person delivering the information.
Organic grassroots working on as many levels as possible to interlink activity and create additional opportunities to disseminate positive information about future decisions!
Will see where it takes us, but every village, town, area, individual could do their own thing, scaled up or down and tailored to fit that individuals interests, talents, skill set and initial contact group.
verdict; Westminster Command Paper fails to reflect ‘vow’
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/oct/westminster-command-paper-fails-reflect-vow surprise, surprise!
Radio Scotland has snippets of what Alistair Carmichael said, but they must be struggling for ‘highlights’. Sounded like the usual sequence of wind-eggs…
o..o..0..0..0..0..o..o…
Did he say anything substantial?
Well my wee letter went off to the Smith Commission a few days ago. Devo Max naturally, I did say that we folk in Scotland know exactly what DV means and we wouldn’t be satisfied with a bit of tinkering and some of the less lucrative taxes. Finished up saying the future looks like Devo Max or Independence – probably filed in the bin by now.
As for the Tommy Sheridan thing, I thought at the time that he had made some very bad decisions but that it was personal and between him and his wife. When he won the libel case I knew he wouldn’t be allowed to get away with it, he was already a thorn in the establishments side. I read at the time that perjury is committed every day in the courts and that the authorities decide which cases to prosecute. It was obvious that they were out to get him, and his wife if possible. Why He seems to have become a hate figure for women’s libbers I don’t know when there are many more worthy of their ire.
What is the significance of this Command Paper? Does it mean they are watering it down already?
@ Defo, I wasent offended by your post as you say it was sweeping in content, but we all need reminding from time to time who the gaffer of this site is,I have been just as techy as others, if we were all saints it would be boring. This sites scaned daily by Media & Political Partys & thats another reminder for Wingers. Onny how as you said the evil Cybernat will be back shortly normal service will resume.
Morag, great idea, coffee, cake, a wee glass of wine to keep the chat flowing !
Yes Social is only the starting name, discussion was had about needing a name for the group that would be inclusive and not scare people away but so far no front runner has emerged.
Yes social where you are should be what you need it to be!
Chat and coffees sound great!
Will try to keep you posted!
Fre Blogger: Westminster Command Paper fails to reflect ‘vow’
Much obliged for the heads-up, Fred.
New powers will ‘have to be considered in the round’ with UK powers.
Another retreat.
Well, in effect the No’s voted for the promise of nothing, and when they receive nothing they should be satisfied.
@Lanarkist
I like that community group idea. I’d offer to help out if I wasn’t so far away (assuming by the name, you’re in Lanark?)
Would be nice to see things like that springing up everywhere. I’d definitely be up for pitching in if there was one started near me…
The Smith Commission page is itself suspect as it includes powers that never belonged to Westminster ever as new devolved. A group espousing constitutional reform should attempt to get the very basics correct.
I have added an entry that only focuses on one part related to responsibility and accountability of teh Scottish parliament.
Scotlands accounts are collected on the back of a fag packet called Gers and are not Auditable. This is a unacceptable for a parliamnet that is to have accountability, proper devolution and a degree of home rule.
Regardless of what is reserved or devolved Scotland must have full audited accounts carried out by and independent body eg. Audit Scotland. This requires all revenue and expenditures are properly accounted. Eg All whisky leaving Scottish territory has to be accounted for.
How can Labours pathetic 40% tax responsibility be met if we cannot account for 100%? It could be open to legal challenge akin to Shylocks pound of flesh. How would we know exactly 40% of the tax is taken?
This would clarify the the volume and level of responsibility for devolved spending but was also clarify the level of spending on reserved issues financed by Scotland.
@Lanarkist and others –
Anyone keen on organising get-the-githers should keep the J.D. Wetherspoon pubs in mind – their boss was sanguine about independence.
I don’t know how many outlets they have, but we made good use of them for Wings social nights and never had any major problems.
Interesting response to T.V. debates in Newsweek
http://www.newsweek.com/left-out-scottish-national-party-blasts-utterly-unacceptable-election-debate-plans-277041
As far as I see it, the Smith Commission is a win-win for the pro-independence parties. If they delay it, which appears likely with this Command Paper, then unionist parties get the blame, with a general election approaching fast. The SNP/Greens have a right to say that the unionist parties have to deliver on substantial powers if the whole thing is not delayed. If they don’t deliver, it is the fault of No parties for making promises they have not delivered on.
@ Ian Brotherhood Aye Alistair Carmichael had something substantial,
2 x 14oz Aberdeen Angus steakes ( matured )
1 large Apple Crumble with ambrosia custard 1 litre
Pot of Luwak coffee + tunnocks tea cakes 1doz
Magnum of Dom Pernom
He could,nt manage the after 8s, he took the packet with him.
All at the Taxpayers exspence, now if thats no substantiel ah dont know whit is.
Conan_the_Librarian says:
13 October, 2014 at 5:52 pm
Just did an extremely long reply to donald anderson which went into the ether.
Bummer Conan, I just lost a lengthy reply in the ether, wherffer that is, long reply to the Oncie chap. No clear were there two Conans, or was there a Damascus conversion moment?
Like the Brucie Spider and maist Yesers I will endeavour tae proceed. or try, try, try again.
Oneironaut says:
13 October, 2014 at 4:57 pm
@donald anderson
Didn’t know you were such an expert on what the SSP were up to lately. Do you know someone in there?
Last I heard they couldn’t care less what Sheridan was up to. Bigger things to worry about with this independence campaign, which does seem a little more important than digging up stuff that everyone else should have forgotten about and left in the past where it belongs.
We prefer to leave the mud-slinging to others. Like some of the people on here for example!
Oncie, or whateffer your name is, sorry I don’t think I know you, one of the reasons I never liked pseudonyms. Were you a founder member of the SSP? Yes, I know most of the originals still hanging in there and those who left. Some, no doubt, will give you a character reference for me. I bump into some regularly. Some are still good friends, till someone else invariably raises the subject of Tommy Sheridan, usually SSPers, when they turn into the Incredible Wulks. I did not bring up Tommy Sheridan here, merely replied. I have no objection to it being aired and have said others may be put off by it. Maybe you did not read my posts.
I was a member since its inception till its demise and inevitable split. Like I keep saying here, The SRSM left because the SSP kept reneging on its commitment to Scottish Independence and pretty nasty with it too.
Fascinating as it is to recite how many Trots and Stalinists can dance oan the heid o’ a peen. Others are less than fascinated.
Did you hear aboot the Trots that invaded an Anarchist meeting?
They were flung oot and Anarchy was restored.
I often wonder how Scots react when living in London, especially when, either in social occasions or in the workplace when adverse comments regarding Scots are made?
Especially after the referendum.
Do they just “sing dumb” as I suspect most do? Or do they laugh along with them, effectively endorsing their remarks?
I’m glad I don’t ever go down there.
Strange people, the Scots…………
@ Ian Brotherhood several Wingers mentioned a Nite out yesterday ither Glas/ Edin balls in your court lads n lasses what say You’s.
Can’t wait till the Rev is back. The site has gone to pot a bit. Somebody ( not sure who) hit the nail on the head saying that hundreds of posts on a few items mean folks go off topic too soon and too much. Too many personal conversations going on. This is site used to be for facts and info. We need focusing.
Also ( sorry I know some are not going to like this) but what’s with all the ‘Honeys’and ‘Dolls’ and kisses!! Get a room or just Facebook each other or something. If I was coming here for the first time reading this Mill and Boon type stuff it would probably be my last. Sorry, again, I know these are popular people.
Rev, please do something!
BBC Scotland / Sarah Smith / Scotland2014 giving UKIP even more publicity this evening despite them only having 4% support in latest Scottish opinion poll.
Will BBC ask why their MEP still lives in London and has yet to hold a surgery in Scotland despite his vast salary and expenses?
Latest YouGov poll October 2014-10-13
An analysis of the YouGov Scottish sub samples from last week’s polling shows the SNP extending its lead in voting intentions for the Westminster elections, while UKIP struggles to make any impact in Scotland.
Over the course of the week YouGov have surveyed 1120 voters in Scotland and show the SNP support reaching 40 per cent, with Labour down to 29 per cent. The Tories are in third place at 17 per cent. Significantly, while UKIP make progress in England, on these sub samples they are anchored in fifth place in Scotland at a mere four per cent.
Union dividend
How can you stomach watching these “Scottish ” news progs??
I give up some years ago-I felt physically sick at the way this nation was being treated by them-BBC Glasgow is simply a unionist “trojan horse” and the sooner it is wiped off the face of this fair nation the better……..
Today’s Scotsman had a front page headline “Brown accuses Cameron of breaking up Britain” or words to that effect. It seemed -from inspecting the rag at Sainsbury’s without touching – that Brownzilla fears Cameron may be about to honour his promises.
As I no longer buy the Scotsman I wonder if anyone knows or cares what this was about. Any thoughts?
Its simply the usual lies, Vlad-expect lots more wild rhetoric attempting to show that labour will attack the vile tories, to the effect that hopefully the slab vote will hold up-hahaha!
They don’t realise that the genie is out of the bottle and slab are no more……….
Oneironaut, I grew up in Lanark, still some family there and I visit a couple of times a year. Moved to Edinburgh to study, stayed twenty years, now in NEFife if that’s closer.
Ian if there were a Wotherspoon here I would mostly use it, the one in Broughty a Ferry was very customer friendly!
Just a local pub!
@ donald anderson.
Been copied.
But this is me.
http://mypseudepigrapha.blogspot.co.uk/
@donald anderson
Well sounds like you haven’t had much dealings with the North Ayrshire branch of the SSP. I go with my own experiences of them.
When I was out looking for someone who was making a stand against the bedroom tax, at the time they were the only ones publically visible, so I joined with them. That was over two years ago, and I’ve never had any reason to regret that decision since.
For a group you claim is not committed to independence, we certainly ran ourselves ragged campaigning for it. Organising public meetings all over the place from Glasgow to Ayr to Stevenston (a place where only us and the Saturday Yes stall existed to let people know that there was even an alternative to BT’s freakshow).
As far as I’m concerned, we put in just as much work as the other parties in the Yes Alliance.
Even when they weren’t so keen on sharing the spotlight with us, we felt a little unappreciated but we kept on with it anyway because independence was the big prize and we were aiming for that first.
And after the vote, we were as gutted as anyone else that all that work hadn’t been enough. But we’re moving on and we’re still aiming for that same prize.
We might not think much of Tommy Sheridan as a person, but everyone I’ve talked to respects him for his ability as a campaigner, as a speaker, as someone who can pull in the public and make them listen.
If you’ve ever talked to the members of his “entourage” about the SSP, you’d find out that the hostility definitely isn’t all one-sided.
But the general consensus among the NA branch of the SSP is that if he’s doing good things for the independence movement, then good on him.
But right now we don’t have time for digging up the past.
Not too sure what’s behind the recent surge of SSP-bashing on here. Seems to me like it all just came out of the blue.
Maybe some folks on here have their own reasons for not wanting to work with the SSP, but if all people are going to do is sling insults and wild accusations, I’ve got better things to do than get into a mud-slinging match with them.
I’m just kind of saddened that Wings has been dragged down to this level…
If these so called tv debates go ahead without the SNP/GREENS this is great news as it gives us a chance to cancel our SKY TV as well saving another £70
someone should put up a petition for a mass cancellation of BBC and SKY TV starting on the day of the debates
BBC licence @£140
sky tv @ £70 per month
= £980 per year
lets kick them where it hurts in the pocket
nigel @ 13 October, 2014 at 6:41 pm
I often wonder how Scots react when living in London, especially when, either in social occasions or in the workplace when adverse comments regarding Scots are made?
Especially after the referendum.
Do they just “sing dumb” as I suspect most do? Or do they laugh along with them, effectively endorsing their remarks?
I’m glad I don’t ever go down there.
Strange people, the Scots…………
Thankfully, I’ve never had the ‘pleasure’ to work in London but know a few people who have.
Te impression I get from those I know and from reading online is that the treatment mentioned is reserved not only for Scots but anybody who isn’t white, from the home counties and didn’t go to the right school.
@Caledonia
And put the money into a non partisan Scotland Trust, which exists only to grant funds to initiatives that push independence.
200 – 300k people x £145 per annum for the TV licence? Thats a lot of clout.
It could be run by Trustees including a few ordinary members of the public.
@Meindevon: you’re absolutely right…I tried to be circumspect and avoid naming the clique that are really screwing up this site. After three years of really stimulating and informative information and debate it’s gone all to hell. And some of the worst offenders are previously posters who I respected…
Oh well ‘guys and dolls’ and ‘honeys’ if you won’t piss off to o/t..I’ll give it a break and go back to newsnet Scotland (ugh!) or Bella (good). Come back REV soon!
Listening to Malcom Bruce in QT, saying pompously, “We’ve just had a Referendum in Scotland you may have noticed”, as if he was somehow significant in the process or even in it, then slagging off the SG about the SNHS; It seemed we’ve had enough of these 3rd rate politicians speaking with impunity, and telling lies.
Could we crowd fund candidates to stand in English constituencies, then we could access to TV debates and political party broadcasts to put across some of the truth about what has been happening in Scotland and the real issues we have been dealing with and how these could work in England.
The good thing about mass non payment of tv licence etc is no voters will jump on the bandwagon as well and this will really hurt the EBC
As for SKY TV it is getting as bad and it looks like it could not give a monkeys for Scotland either..
Trouble is as with the referendum the TV companies will backtrack on one debate and the scots having been offered none will jump at this
We should except nothing less than every debate to make in fair and unbiased
command paper#sucks
Good news, Daily Rancid circulation slump means no copies to Ireland!
Sky News will have an interview with the First Minister about 8:05pm tonight.Worth a watch as I anticipate will get stuck in about Devo NIL and proposed Election broadcasts.
C4 news report on who gets left out of GE TV debates, UKIP with one Tory boy defector but no mention of SNP getting left out, no mention of anything SNP at all. It’s like Scotland doesn’t actually exist or we did actually win which is also weird considering how long and hard C4 krapped on Scottish democracy.
O/T
BRILLIANT day at George SQ yesterday (seven hour rally) and great turnout by fellow Wingers, pleasure meeting you all.
This song finished the day off and has been labelled the new “Anthem of the YES Movement”. It’s called “Hope Over Fear”, Written and sung by Gerry Cinnamon, (3 mins in). It really grows on you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnzRvLPO4K4
Ronnie Anderson in his Robbo Scot outfit with tartan bonnet, is dancin in front of the stage.
More vids to follow. Cheers
@ Meindevon
I assume you are reffering to some of my posts .
Cheers
I’m still anon , but many here have met and now know each other a bit hence the more ” personal/ tactile” posts.
Paula Rose used those terms effectively to diffuse minor spats pre Ref.
One of my posts were responded to by a reminder that we are all still hurting , too right we are all hurting .
For some , I do not think being ” snippet ” with each other acheives anything . It would be nice if some took a deep breath & counted to 10 before posting .
There are times when ” facts” need correction , this is a plus on the site .
We all agree Rev deserves a break .
In the words of PR. ” Play nicely boys “
Testing.
I can haz posting?
Please….
Don’t worry, peeps, indy is coming — and it is coming in our lifetime. When you step back and look from outside (I do not live in Scotland), this is clearer than day.
The funny thing is that we will still be arguing over things further down the line. Like, for example, whether to reject or embrace high-profile Labour politicians who have deserted the sinking ship and defected to the SNP in a bid to save their wretched “careers”.
I’d gladly take a beating for being new if I could get out of stinking moderation.
@David Stevenson says:13 October, 2014 at 12:27 pm:
“Can I ask Robert Peffers, Schroedingers Cat, Helena Brown or Scott Finlayson if they were ever members of the SSP, particularly at any time between 2004-2007?”
I have only ever been a supporter, voter and member of the SNP since 1946 but have sometimes lapsed my membership. Never been a member of any other political party, though.
From what I’ve read on some sites the reason the SNP won’t get onto the televised debates is because they are a ‘regional’party.
That’s easily solved, with the extra cash the SNP have from all the new members why not enter some candidates in the North of England. It’s entirely possible they could retain their deposits and even give the Lib Dems and UKIP a good hiding in the process.
@BtP – you made a very interesting comment earlier concerning somebody’s mention of colonisation. You posted ‘internal colonialism’ and I think you are bang on with that. Kind of fits with the current debate about the exclusion of SNP from the upcoming tv debates – internal colonialism is based on economic exploitation and political exclusion. When you factor in the role of tv news, newspapers and radio and their role as Ideological State Apparatus during the referendum we have just witnessed the way domination by an English elite based in Westminster looks on us as part of a ‘Celtic fringe’. It’s still a concept used in discussing Native Americans (and others) and may well be more applicable to the position Scotland finds itself in at present.
One of the reasons the SNP has never considered standing in England is to do with PPBs. The party gets an allocation of PPBs for Scotland alone, based on its share of the vote in Scotland. This is a decent share of the available slots.
If the party stood in England, it would get a share of the UK-wide PPB slots based on its support on a UK-wide basis. Which is about 4% on a really good day.
I don’t know if the other considerations being discussed make it worthwhile to forego this advantage, and maybe the party is looking into it. However, it may not be worth standing paper candidates simply to participate in a debate or two, when there are downsides as well.
To all, I am very sorry to read that people didn’t come over to the Wings banners to introduce themselves because of the bickering on this site over the last week or two.
I can assure you that no one with the banners have been involved in this childish behaviour. You would have been greeted with respect, a smile and a hug or handshake according to your preference.
I agree with defo’s earlier comment that there is a clique, who look on this as being their site and no other or new views are allowed. A good hint for these posters would be to leave off the cheeky watter when posting. As Stu has always said (I am paraphrasing slightly here); Think how your post would be read and understood by an undecided or new visitor, so before you post keep this in mind.
I’m kind of alarmed by the people saying they’ve had posts disappear into the ether today. I’ve not lost anything since the NFL bug was fixed, and I kind of hoped we’d seen the last of it.
I don’t suppose someone who has lost a post would like to go to off-topic and salami-slice it like I did with mine, to see if there’s another character string also causing problems?
@Ian Brotherhood
The ” Republic UK ” website might have the information you are looking for about the powers of the Monarchy.
Sorry can’t do links.
Nigel-Husker: Do they just “sing dumb” as I suspect most do? Or do they laugh along with them, effectively endorsing their remarks?
I very good question.
I can only talk for those I know and myself – you bite off their head instantly and wait for their embarrassment.
The first time insult comes as a shock. Until that moment it’s only natural to take warnings of xenophobia and latterday colonial mindset with a pinch of salt. You’re part of the British Isles, after all, no passport required for internal travel. You like English things, villages, heritage, gardens, cars, so what’s the problem?
Sometimes the insult arrives in the form of a sarcastic comment wrapped up as a joke, the dispenser unaware of your integrity, or it’s a simple rejection of your Scottish pound note. It can be a ticket dispenser at a parking lot rather than an uninformed shop assistant.
You begin to feel an unspoken pressure upon you to conform to a abstract ‘Britishness,’ really an Englishness.
Then you begin to notice a general ignorance of Scottish affairs and aspirations, and in time understand that for many of your countrymen in English society they are the token Scot. “Jocks a fine lad, top bloke.”
If inquisitive that will in turn widen your curiousity to look at institutions called Royal or British yet no Scot is represented in their work or exhibitions. Scottish heros are reduced to second rank, or the small print.
In time you discover Scottish culture and mores anathema to the media and to commercial outlets unless it speaks with a southern accent and values, all trace of heritage dulled if not removed.
At last you understand London sets the standards and chooses the winners.
Then, disenfranchised, illusions dispelled, you bite back and get called a racist.
To all –
Check out Rev’s latest Tweets.
Bizarre.
over on twitter it seems spooks are playing mind games with the REV -apparently out all day to come home to window and frame completely missing from house. Hope he’s got a plan B
On R4 right now. Devolution for English cities.
A little bit o/t, but to me something about powers of the Scottish Parliament.
I noticed that Ineos have just bought another licence for fracking which covers 400 square miles adjacent to the first one.
They have offered to pay communities and landowners 2.5 billion from the first licence and that relfects about 6% of what they epect to make from extracting the shale gas.
Question. How much do these licences cost to purchase and should companies be permitted making such profits at our expense? Afterall it is the value of our homes that are going to be affected.
Does the Scottish Goverment have any powers to prevent these licences from being utilised since the unelected House of Lords had our rights stripped from us, preventing us from obecting to drilling under ours homes, but allowing these companies to do so.
May have to buy my shortbread and woolly socks else where now – darn !!
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/perth-kinross/house-of-bruar-boss-criticised-for-praising-no-campaign-in-hamper-letter-1.625113
@ Morag
I was somewhat annoyed…
@ Ian Brotherhood.
A link for us neanderthals?
@ann
Let us hope. Planning permission etcetera.
samond says they will go to court again over the tv debates and this time it will not be time barred
@BtP
“So how do we go about asking for a Judicial Review of the Referendum, based on non conforming ballot papers?
http://tinyurl.com/p5ylyy4
I read somewhere that it would also require £20,000 just to open a JR
Also maybe worth considering
http://tinyurl.com/knj2eeu
I wonder if someone can help me. I am going to be in London and I know that where I will be staying will have the following shops. What supermarkets should I avoid taking my custom to re the Scottish indy vote and influencing the outcome by order of WM? I am thinking all except Tesco, but I may be wrong…
M&S Food Hall
Morrison’s
Tesco
Sainsbury’s
Neil: May have to buy my shortbread and woolly socks elsewhere now – darn!!
A case of Tim Nice but dim. Outrageous, nevertheless.
Patrician. I would have liked to come over to the Wings banner and meet folk, but I couldn’t get near it. Next time.
@Morag
If PPB’s are Party Political Broadcasts that’s decided by the BBC Executive, so there is no saying we will get our fair share anyway.
I think someone like AS or NS in a debate with the other ‘leaders’ would probably give us more positive exposure than half a dozen PPB’s. They are a good time to go and make a cup of tea after your evening meal.
Poor Rev! 🙁 hope he is ok
Adam Boulton is a sot.
Valerie
no excuse windows security essentials is a free download, after all.
Oneironaut commented on Club membership increases.
@donald anderson
Well sounds like you haven’t had much dealings with the North Ayrshire branch of the SSP. I go with my own experiences of them’
The only dealings with NA was in by election. There was one guy from North Ayrshire who always defended me against the unionist on the SSP forum. Can’t mind his name off hand as I never met him. I think he returned to the Labour Party. I hope not. Then there was the MSP, Rosemary Byrne, who was great and maligned for supporting Tommy.I can assure you that Glasgow, Edinburgh and elsewhere had more than its share of anti Scots, never mind Independence. The SSP Yoof forum was particularly bad for brass monkeys and young fouled mouthed Unionists. Many turned up later in the Green Brigade forum along with Anarchists, Brit lefties and religious/fitba anti SNP bigots.
I repeat, Alan McCombes always was stalwart for Independence.
I think it’s hilarious that UKIP for the 70515 are targetting Scotland’s Tartan Tories – David Mundell, Ian Davidson, Jim Murphy, Margaret Curran, Douglas Alexander, Gordon Brown …
@Neil Dorward –
re that ‘House of Bruar’ bell-end :
‘As a family, we have invested everything in Scotland and to have been regarded as a separate country would have been extremely unsettling.’
Indeed. Having your ‘family’ classified as ‘a separate country’ would be ever-so traumatic, dahling.
This guy is living proof that a privileged upbringing cannot disguise fundamental idiocy.
@Conan the Librarian –
Sorry man, it’s all moving too quickly. Me’s Neandertahal too when it comes to such stuff…
@ Quentin Quale
That is why I said it.
Applies to Brittany, Euskadi, Corsica and many regions of major European nation states, which grew by repressing local cultures, languages and religions and then absorbing them into a greater good.
About a century ago, if you asked anybody in France where did they come from and what was their “nationality” they would have replied Occitan, Breton, Catalan, Norman, Ch’iti, Alsacian, Corsican.
Two things created the “French” state was a standard education curriculm for France where every child was on the same page at the same time. The Teachers, Gendarmes, Postal Managers were all in a sort of “national service” and were rotated around the Country to stamp a French imprint. Local languages, and there were a few were forbidden in School and mocked. Army regiments too were always posted away from the home region,
The second was the First World War and the emergence of systematised internal French propaganda.
It was possibly the same in Italy, Germany, Spain and possibly Poland.
AuldA is awake could probably correct my thoughts with precision.
Apologies if this was nown earlier but Alistair Carmichael has officially ruled out ‘Devo-max’.
From the Telegraph tonight 7pm:
Alistair Carmichael, the Scottish Secretary, rules out so-called ‘devo max’ as the Government publishes a command paper outlining proposals for handing Scotland more powers.
The SNP will not be allowed to introduce “independence by the back door”, the Scottish Secretary has said after the Government published a report warning proposals for extra devolution must not damage the United Kingdom.
Alistair Carmichael dismissed calls for so-called ‘devo max’ after the Scottish Government report published last week that called for Holyrood to get control over nearly everything except defence and the pound.
He told MPs the Smith Commission, which has been charged by the Prime Minister with getting a cross-party deal on more powers, would not consider plans that would undermine the integrity of the UK.
His warning to the Nationalists was echoed by a UK Government command paper, which said the impact of more devolution on Westminster’s ability to “effectively discharge” its duties must be considered.
… so it will be ‘devo-nothing’ then.
This is from an article in the Guardian:
The paper made clear that Labour is in a minority of one in believing that full powers of income tax should not be devolved to Holyrood. The four other parties with seats on a commission chaired by the crossbench peer Lord Smith of Kelvin – the Tories, Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Scottish Green party – all believe that full income tax-raising powers should be devolved.
Poor old SLAB…
This is one of their excuses for not wanting it devolved:
Labour is making clear that devolving full income tax powers to Holyrood is a red line it would not be willing to cross because it believes that it could lead to a race to the bottom in which Holyrood could seek to attract people north of the border by cutting tax rates.
So, they are worried some people might leave England (nation of around 50 million?) to move to Scotland, with a population of just over 5 million. They cannot even come up with a good excuse. The big boy did it and ran away.
I was a wings counting agent in Moray and I have to admit that although I was monitoring the count i.e. the crosses in the boxes, I was not looking at the back of the papers to see whether they were blank or not.
This seems to be a contentious issue just now and I’m starting to feel uncomfortable that I didn’t fulfil my obligations to wings or the overall indy campaign.
A serious question – did other wings count agents check the backs of the papers.
Alistair Carmichael, the Scottish Secretary, rules out so-called ‘devo max’ as the Government publishes a command paper outlining proposals for handing Scotland more powers.
The SNP will not be allowed to introduce “independence by the back door”, the Scottish Secretary has said
Oh-he won’t “allow” the Scots anything, won’t he??
We will see about that! He’s just a unionist ("Quizmaster" - Ed)-we are a nation who have the power to make our own laws-About time we did just that!
Thought the FM did well against Boulton tonight. You could feel the waves of patronising dismissal flowing from that silver-haired arrogance-in-a-suit. In London, they have all concluded that the Uppity Jocks are back in their box. Not for long, eh?
@conan
re the popular front
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY
cant help but notice that he resembles your icon more than just a little
conspiracy anyone?
There is no point in listening to Carmichael. We all knew we are not going to get Devo max, as it is correctly defined anyway, out of the Smith Commission. If there are not substantial powers offered, then there is no point in the SNP or Greens agreeing to it. We will see in the next month or so. It is not looking good at the moment though.
BBC Panorama currently doing a special on Nigel Farage. Thought it was going to be the typical media masturbation coverage of UKIP. In fact, it’s a hatchet job & Nigel, for once, has gone all camera shy. Amongst other things, no-one knows where tens of thousands of pounds has gone over the years. One ex-member describes the party as “Farage’s ego trip”.
Imagine if this was the SNP, there would be wall-to-wall party & character assassinations splashed across the tabloids & broadsheets.
Donchajusluv a balanced MSM?…
Cool.
On the subject of numbers yesterday. There must be something we can do about estimating turnouts.
I took a couple of panorama shots of the crowd from near the middle, the second one at about 2PM.
I wondered at the time if I could estimate the size of the crowd. I counted 16 other people within arms reach of me, no more than about 9 meters squared. That’s nearly 1.9 per square meter.
It was by no means the densest area of the crowd and I presume there were probably slightly sparser areas so it ought to balance out.
My crude estimate of the size of the side of George Sq that was packed is about 10,000 square meters. I’m sure others here might be able to refine that figure.
Still, back of an envelope, pushing 20000 people.
Those figures are open to downward revision but I can’t see how they could possibly descend below 10,000.
[Surely there is something that could be done with a quad-copter and clever software to just take an aerial shot and accurately count heads.]
A couple of hours after I made that guess-timate the square was substantially busier than even that.
Unfortunately by the end the crowd had withered to less than half that, 8000 maybe, so a lot of folks missed Gerry Cinnamon which was totally awesome.
Having problems with Windows, Rev…
Go to Start > Programs > Apply Patch
Dcanmore says:
Apologies if this was nown earlier but Alistair Carmichael has officially ruled out ‘Devo-max’.
i dont think anyone here believed we would get anything worthwhile from this commission, least of all devo max
@ Betty Boop says:13 October, 2014 at 2:08 pm:
“Anyway, not sure what a Lochgelly looks like, but, I was sure it was you who mentioned a five fingered tawse a wee while back.”
Ah! Ms Boop, here is a little known fact I’m sure will come as a surprise to older Scots and to you youngsters too.
The original Lochgelly Tawse company is still in business and you can buy your very own, “Lochgelly Tawse”, either as a collector’s item or for use by those with strange evening pastimes.
http://www.johndick-leathergoods.co.uk/the_lochgelly_tawse_online.htm
Labour is making clear devolving full income tax powers to Holyrood is a red line it would not be willing to cross because it believes that … Holyrood could seek to attract people north of the border by cutting tax rates.
Yes, wouldn’t want to give Scotland an edge. Or lose Labour control of its fiefdom.
Internet forums can be strange spaces. Even when a bunch of like-minded people on a subject of such vital importance get together on one of these spaces, conversations can be misunderstood and deteriorate quickly in a way that simply does not happen in a face to face situation.
One must learn patience when participating, as guess what, people are different, have different opinions, prefer differing levels of personalism, have a different sense of humour etc. I am actually crap in this space as I get on my high horse quickly and will fuel the deterioration.
Anyway, there are a bunch of clever, passionate and clearly capable people posting here that have the same general cause at heart so let’s get some regular meet ups on the go that will negate most misunderstandings and build proper relationships going forward which is partly what is required, and we can also have a pint or 3.
Me, I am angry and tend to remain angry until indie happens but I’m more constructive when angry so fully welcome the anger making ‘Command Paper” (why the feck is it called that, it treats Scots as serfs yet again) and the debate exclusion which is a national insult.
In short, everyone stay, be constructive, be patient, drink together and let’s get our country back.
Kenny at 826pm
Your choice would be TESCO. All the others played ball with Downing street, re scarey stories.
Although better together cited a receipt from TESCO for a weekly shop, showing an increase after independence, they were told off by TESCO, who made it very clear in a statement that they had no plans to increase prices. So, of all those you list, I would choose TESCO.
yesindyref2
imo ukip are merely labtorydem policy advisors.
put-scotland-in-control-of-scottish-broadcasting
http://tinyurl.com/p3kcjkn
Jon D – you’ll get yourself barred if you are not careful.
He’s bound to be tetchy!
I agree with others here, that Adam Boulton was exceptionally patronising and rude to the FM. Boulton was wrong on the indy debate, and he was wrong on the court case in 2010. In fact I remember the SNP put out an appeal for funds to go to court, and raised the money within a couple of days (I think). GIRFUY, Mr Boulton of SKY London ‘news’.
It is clear the outright arrogance of London towards Scots, is returning at a rapid pace. They think we have all just gone home, and that everything is back to normal. They really have NO IDEA what is waiting around the corner.
That patronising sneer from Boulton is quite enough to motivate me to keep fighting for another TEN years, let alone the GE2015.
Fact of the day: Excluding the SNP from the GE15 TV debates = bigoted and discriminatory racism.
Peple asking for Judicial Review of the Referendum, based on non conforming ballot.
Can we please stop this nonsense.
For example, ther is “evidence” of people in USA and England voting. Did they all vote no?
Ballot papers did not have official Mark. Again, was it only yes voters? Anyway, they would have been void at the count. There were party representatives at the count, they would have known if papers were void.
I could go on, there was not, repeat not, any fiddling. The NO campaign frightened people, they told outright lies, used the postal vote to their advantage but there is no way they could manipulate the ballot. It would need a conspiracy on a level that involved every Council Returning Officer and every counter. The experts in the Greens and SNP would know if there was even a hint of fraud.
Move on, we lost, let’s expose the Gordon Bowns for what they are. I’m confident of Independence in the very near future, once the lies are exposed.
Yeah, it’s this again, and I’m sorry, but it needs a good kick right up the proverbial, so please, please…hey, I didn’t post it for, what a whole day?? – come on!
It’s Oor ‘Thistle’ we’re talking about! This man’s immediate future is hanging, right there, in the balance, and how it goes is all up to you.
Where’s dem Weir folk when ye need them? (Only joshing…but not really – come on folks, please…)
Currently sitting at £2.045. It’s 51% of what he was appealing for, and it’s probably well-short of what he actually needs to make the whole thing do-able.
Please, please, support the man:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2
1) DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss of the referendum with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. This may last for weeks.
2) GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the guilt of the no voters it is important that you say “I voted YES”.
3)ANGER
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the loss on Tommy Sheridan. Please try to control this, along with your blood pressure.
4) REFLECTION
Just when you think you should be getting on, a period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of loss of one`s country.
🙂
A.N.Surgent
anger is NOT violence.
@CRAIGthePICT 9.09pm
Internet forums can be strange spaces. Even when a bunch of like-minded people on a subject of such vital importance get together on one of these spaces, conversations can be misunderstood and deteriorate quickly in a way that simply does not happen in a face to face situation.
You’re so right, the majority of spats on here seem to occur when people’s comments have been misunderstood or they haven’t thought them through (I was guilty of that myself the other day, as Morag knows!)
It is upsetting when these things happen, but we are all on the same side, and I am constantly inspired and given fresh hope by constructive ideas such as Lanarkist’s about community events, or helpful information posted by people like Nana Smith. I’m sure we can all rise above it.
And we’ve always got Ronnie and his snake to bring us back down to earth (btw so glad you emphasised it was a string you held over my head and not a rope, Ronnie, for a split second yesterday I thought you were getting ready to hang me!!) 🙂 Hope that doesn’t classify me as a member of some clique . . .
Robert Peffers, I’m getting seriously worried by your intimate knowledge of esoteric shops . . .
@ Jim McIntosh at 8.53
Re: numbers on ballot papers –
I attended a day of postal vote opening, and my local count. During the former, after the ballot papers were taken from their envelopes, they were absolutely definitely checked to see if they had a number on the back (and that this matched the number on the envelope) on the day I was present, and I have no reason to suppose that day was exceptional.
Just under 85,000 votes were counted after the close of poll. 58 of them were rejected (less than 0.1%), and none of those was rejected due to “lack of official mark”. The counters I watched turned each paper over before they put it in Yes, No, or dubious. I didn’t get a clear view of every one, but I would be very surprised indeed if any of them did not have a number on it.
I don’t think you should worry about not having done your duty.
@Robert Louis
Thanks for that, Tesco it will be, none of the others will get as much as 1p of my custom.
Regarding Tommy Sheridan vs the News of the World, I never understood why he didn’t just stand up and admit that he’d been to the adult club or whatever it was. Why should his private life be a source of shame either way? Everyone knows the tabloids are muckrakers. I certainly would have kept voting for him no matter the details of his sex life.
He used it as an opportunity to take on ‘the establishment’ – perhaps justifiably, given the phone hacking and other dubious practises that the NoTW was engaged in. But it’s a pity that in the process he ended up ripping up most of the gains that he and the SSP had made.
If I were in Scotland I would still be voting SSP. What they achieved before the wipeout was phenomenal considering the numbers. It was the SSP that first raised the issue of free school meals – voted down by Labour, and then later reintroduced as a Labour bill. I remember having an argument with my (Labour) MSP about her hypocrisy in voting down the original bill but then turning around and voting for the almost identical Labour version.
Colin Fox has done a great job keeping the party together and rebuilding through some tough times.
Now that the News of the World is itself completely discredited, and Tommy Sheridan has found some of his old populist fire in the referendum campaign, I hope that both sides can move on and Scotland can continue to show the UK that there is an alternative to the Tory consensus in Westminster.
These splits always seem to happen on the left. It’s a warning for the wider Yes movement, I think, to remain focused and build on the gains you have made. Don’t quibble over small disagreements when you agree on the large ones.
Jim, I was a counting agent at Kelso (Borders count).
We were trained and supervised by experienced SNP activists and councillors. Nobody bothered to tell us to check the backs of the ballot papers, because it doesn’t matter in the slightest.
I was initially convinced my own paper was blank on the back. I folded it in the booth, looked at the folded paper, then unfolded it again to take a last proud look at the cross in the Yes box. My memory retains nothing about printing on the back.
I also don’t remember seeing anything on the backs of the papers at Kelso. Because I just wasn’t looking for anything. Others who were there assure me there were bar codes on the back but I just didn’t register these. Knowing how one’s memory can play tricks, I’m completely prepared to believe my own paper had the same, but because I was thinking about the cross and not looking for anything on the back, my memory just didn’t retain it.
It appears that everyone talking about blank-backed ballots is in the same position as I am. Had no thought to look at the time, didn’t have any idea there was meant to be anything there, and so doesn’t remember seeing anything. Bear in mind the gorilla on the basket-ball court.
The reason nobody is checking for the bar codes is that they don’t matter. They’re only needed if there is an accusation of personation, and an individual paper has to be recovered from the box. Absent that happening, a paper without printing on the back will just be counted in the normal way.
There is moreover no possible advantage to anyone in arranging for blank-backed ballots to be issued. What would they do with them that they couldn’t do with an ordinary ballot paper?
See this excellent article here for a better discussion of all this.
http://www.lawyersforyes.org/2014/10/05/jonathan-mitchell-the-suggested-grounds-for-judicial-review-of-the-referendum/
No doubt small-scale electoral fraud was prepetrated by a few individuals, it always is. Large-scale organised fraud of the sort being postulated by the conspiracy theories going around is quite honestly impossible.
That’s why the unionists were in full panic mode in the last two weeks, and finally wheeled out The Vow.
@wee alex
Were you at the count?
If so I’ll ask the question again, did you see any ballots without any marking on the back? It’s a simple question.
Yes or No is fine.
I’m not suggesting there was fraud, I’m asking a question of whether anyone else who WAS there even thought about what was on the back of the ballot. Please don’t read things into questions that fit your sanctimonious answers.
If I remember rightly, Adam Boulton tried to get the ‘job’ which was won by Andy Coulson.
Aye, okay Adam, keep ‘reaching for the stars’.
These people live in a concurrent universe which has precisely fuck-all to do with the one most of us inhabit – the fact that Boulton is permanently more-or-less pissed speaks volumes about his attitude towards his ‘profession’, and the culture which tolerates his ilk.
Wee Alex, the number/bar code thing on the back isn’t the same thing as the “official mark”. There were a few papers void for lack of the official mark nationwide, but these appear to have been instances where the mark had been deliberately defaced for some reason.
Not a single paper was void for having no number on the back. Probably because there were no such papers, only people like me who weren’t looking for such a thing not noticing. Or because even if the odd paper was missed in the printing process, nobody cared.
@Morag
Thanks for the answer Morag – As I said in the original post, I can’t remember if there was anything on the back or not.
I’m certainly not suggesting fraud, I just thought I maybe didn’t do my job properly. I feel better that I’m not the only one who has a mind block about this.
Ta
Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water…. I have the following questions about the vote (!). I am sure there are simple answers to the questions, but I cannot for the life of me understand why:
1. No exit polls were taken.
2. There is not the strictest control over the results of postal votes, while campaigning is still going on. What if the postal votes were firmly for YES? They may be next time! In this case, it would be better for the government to somehow cancel the vote and ride out the condemnation, say, than lose Scotland’s oil and whisky exports…
3. Postal voting is allowed at all if you are not at death’s door! What is going to happen in 2015, we all know what Labour is capable of re vote stuffing, cheating…
Jim, I’ll say it again. I was at the count. If you’d asked me the next day, I’d have said none of the papers had anything on the back.
I didn’t notice. It wasn’t something we were told to watch for, because it’s not important.
Others who were there assure me that there were numbers, bar codes, whatever, on the backs. They noticed, I didn’t. It’s easy not to notice something you’re not specifically looking out for.
http://www.lawyersforyes.org/2014/10/05/jonathan-mitchell-the-suggested-grounds-for-judicial-review-of-the-referendum/
Just to put a smile on my face and all youse I hope, putting the yougov aggregated polls from SNP though both electoral calculus and scotlandvotes. SNP 40%, Lab 29%, Con 17%, Lib not mentioned (5% from before). In seats:
Electoral calculus / scotlandvotes
SNP 39 / 36
Lab 17 / 19
Con (by name and nature) 2 / 2
Lib 1 / 2
Seems to me Carmichael is doing his bit to please the Tories, and get all his pals in Scotland kicked out. Mickey Moore will be well pleased – he’s out. Smith will be his last chance at anything interesting to do with Westminster, unless he pulls a Devo-Max rabbit out of his hat perhaps. Hey Mickey. Mmmm. Scotland’s song for Smith:
Oh what you do Mickey, do Mickey
Don’t break my heart Mickey
@Morag
I didn’t notice the barcode until I folded it up on the way over to the box. They way I folded it meant it was facing up, by chance.
Mmm, perhaps we should crowd-fund that guy with the trike and the speakers and Darth Vader to play that when Mickey Moore goes into the Smith Commission on the 22nd October.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkYZKqmxaro&list=RDTkYZKqmxaro
Potential defector to the SNP before 70515 – the GE.
@yesindyref2
“Oh what you do Mickey, do Mickey
Don’t break my heart Mickey”
Dammit, now I’m gonna have that song stuck in my head all night! hehe
Sorry, Jim, cross-posting.
I wasn’t a Wings counting agent because Wings didn’t have any agents in the Borders due to some sort of clerical error. In fact all the Yes groups co-operated. We all gave our names to the SNP referendum agent, and said what we were prepared to do. He allocated us both to duties and affiliations, to use up the number of available slots most effectively. I got an email saying I was an official “Yes Scotland” counting agent, but there was a footnote saying that some people had been “affiliated” to groups other than their own, to make up the numbers. (We had Yes, SNP, Greens, SSP, Generation Yes, WFI and Farming for Yes, at least.)
We all worked as a single team, with Yes rosettes for everyone in addition to whatever badges we chose to wear. I wore a Wings badge just to make up for Wings not being officially represented. The leader of the SNP group on Borders council ruled us with a rod of iron, allocating us boxes to sample and so on. See, trying to grab a cup of coffee with that guy on your tail!
The count was liberally sprinkled with councillors and people who have been involved in SNP campaigns going back decades. People who have been to more counts than some of us have had hot dinners. We were well trained and supervised.
Nobody said a freaking word about looking at the backs of the papers, because it doesn’t actually matter even if the odd one has snuck through where the printing machine missed the back. Not unless that is the actual paper that was given to the guy who voted fraudulently on behalf of someone else, as 10 people did in Glasgow. All these fraudulent votes were found and removed, using the numbers which were on the back.
Don’t concern yourself for a moment about not paying attention to the backs of the papers. It really wasn’t important.
Gallowglass, was it possible to fold the paper in such a way that the half you were looking at was indeed blank? The papers I saw photographed on the internet seemed to have the printing right across.
@ Democracy Reborn
Re: Panorama Farage special. Much as I have deep misgivings about the man and his party, I had the feeling the BBC were applying the same mistreatment they did to Yes during the campaign. He deserves it, but the BBC have fallen so low in my estimation that I now take anything the claim with a pinch of salt.
Morag, thanks for giving me clarity on official Mark and number/bar code, I thought they were the same thing.
@david says: 13 October, 2014 at 3:32 pm:
“Robert…you gonna give a summary of other prominent politicians lives? Just for some perspective?”
Not unless it comes up in the comments and is relevant.
I did Tommy because there were several posts made with claims that had no evidence offered to back them up. Just hints that Tommy had done bad things but with no specifics.
The truth is that the notorious newspaper that made claims about Tommy were found to be criminals who perjured themselves in other court cases. So perhaps they also lied in Tommy’s trial and there has been no appeal as yet. So I, for one, will be making no judgements.
@Morag
Yes, if I turned it around the barcode would be on the bottom facing the floor. I was holding it horizontally.
I could have also folded it so that the barcode was hidden inside. Most people fold it two maybe three times?
It was a big sheet of paper relatively speaking for the question and the box.
No offence to you, or anyone, but I don’t think it really matters or is healthy to keep going over. In good faith or bad, it was a loss. We can’t even keep the Unionists to their promises, we are not getting the result overturned and so far there is no tangible evidence of fraud having taken place.
🙂
@Morag
I distinctly remember the paper I was given wasn’t folded in half, but in a “1 3rd/2 3rds” way, where one side overlapped the other.
I don’t recall if there was anything on the back, all I remember was the question and the “Yes” and “No” boxes.
Though I was in a bit of a hurry since I was assigned to stand outside the polling station with leaflets that day, so might have missed it.
I don’t think I checked the back at all, but my memory is pretty unreliable at the best of times, especially since my mind is blocking that day out due to the mental trauma caused by thinking about how close we came to living the dream… 🙁
But yeah, I’d have to agree it’s an irrelevant question. Even if the vote had been rigged, I doubt they’d have left evidence just lying around for us to find. This isn’t a game of Cluedo!
Better to focus on a battle we can actually win.
Hello all, first timer on posting on this here gathering. Have been mostly reading up on the comments to get a jist of it. Anyway I voted yes, love Scotland and it’s people with my soul and will always forge ahead with the dream of one day (closer than its ever been)of being able to walk out my door, into the hills take a deep breath of the finest air in thee world, look up at the sky and shout YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES we did it. ching ching
Electoral calculus / scotlandvotes
SNP 39 / 36
Lab 17 / 19
Con (by name and nature) 2 / 2
Lib 1 / 2
Wow, like!!!! I naturally dislike the UKIP and consider that there is no place for them in such a bonny land as oor ain, but if they must be idiots, let them be “useful” idiots in the sense useful to us. The UKIP can surely only take votes away from the other unionist parties. I cannot see an SNP or Green or SSP voter contemplating voting for them…. So throw them into the mix and, who knows, they might split the unionist vote and let an SNP candidate slip in. In Jim Murphy’s constituency, I can imagine the UKIP collecting some votes among the selfish nimbies and unionist bampots of Whitecraigs, Newton Mearns, Giffnock…. Would love the SNP to put up a strong Jewish candidate there, who knows what might happen in the wake of people from across the board scunnered at the results of the indy vote and no promised Demo Max. There is a Facebook page to vote out Egg Man.
Grouse Beater @ 13 October, 2014 7:59 pm
Going a bit off topic but touching on your comment.
Over the past few years I had been posting on the Guardians site about independence because it has an easy user interface and it held similar views to my own, or so I had thought.
I had voted SNP but I’m not all that political and only voted them because they were doing good things at Holyrood and was the only party that could deliver independence.
While I was posting about independence, the debate was focused on the SNP and shaped by one one side the evils of nationalism and on the other a separation of the United Kingdom. This was a mishmash of conflating issues as well, strawmans and every other logical fallacy under the sun. As a result, I was spending more time breaking down these rather than focusing on the issues of independence.
By focusing on this I was getting dragged into defending the policies of SNP as well as being defined as a nationalist which is something that I can’t identify with to but being a supporter of independence, I was seen as a nationalist and it was the burden of me to prove otherwise.
Towards the end of the campaign, I had watched youtube clips of Jim Sillars and Tommy Sheridan and they were the loons and loose cannons that the MSM and some in the Yes campaign were painting them out to be. Ok, there is some of their stuff that I didn’t agree to but there was a lot that I did agree with.
What they did explain clearly is they provided an articulate alternative to the narrative that supporting independence isn’t about nationalism which has helped me to fully understand the requirement of independence despite the other alternatives under the present circumstances which I will go into a wee bit later.
Looking back in hindsight, there needs to be more diversity in the media where as many opinions needs to be heard and that includes the Yes camp which was a bit too focused on the SNP. While they were the most trusted and professional as they have the credibility of being on Holyrood for two terms, it had become an Achilles heel as I had previously mentioned.
I believe there are a few initiatives to get alternative media outlets setup and that is welcomed but the biggest problem is the MSM. At the very least, the newsgathering part of the BBC needs to be devolved or at least made accountable in some way to Holyrood.
Going back to my beliefs on independence now. As I mentioned, I’m not interested in nationalism but localism where power is devolved as closely to the people as possible.
The raises the question about how far do you devolve down and what is the starting point? In this way, what is the point of a nation state and could this localism happen under an iScotland or in the United Kingdom.
This is where I could fall in slippery ground and see my requirements better served in the union. That is a possibility but even if a federal solution could be found where the biggest UK constituent, England is broken up into manageable parts for federalism to work but could it actually work?
The problem lies with Westminster and those parties that exist in that system. Their instinct is centralisation of power and to keep it. While they are giving up power be devolving it, they will do it in a way that allows them to retain power, the easiest way financially. Can the Westminster machine change? I don’t think so.
The same could be said of an IScotland and Holyrood. Will they share the same instincts and mentality as their Westminster counterparts? That is a valid question but from my point of view what is the least worst option and I think is a smaller and less powerful central government of an iScotland.
Unless someone comes up with an alternative, no matter how you look at it, I can’t see the only option for a better form of government than that of an iScotland.
O/T but suppose it all is, but fitba talk and population.
Iceland 320,000 people beat Holland in the fitba and sitting pretty at the top o’ their group.
320,000 people.
Makes you boak doesn’t it? If you ever hear the “we’re too wee” patter again.
Scotland would be exactly a medium-sized country if we were ever to become independent with our current population.
I laugh when I hear the BritNats claim Britain is a ”small” country. Small in geography, well, not so much, but yes, I can get that, but 70 odd million on these Islands plus the 6 over on Eire.
Just had a bit of a warm, wouldn’t say heated debate with a “we’re too small” type.
Decided that if your country is under 2.3 million (Slovenia on the border), then I’ll class you as a wee country. Anything over that, nope!
Having read the Lawyers for Yes link that Morag provided, and read the following posts here, I see that what I said about none of the papers at my count lacking an official mark was irrelevant.
Nevertheless, there was number-checking at the postal vote opening; we were told that sometimes two people at the same address would put their ballots in each other’s envelopes, and that would be discovered and they would both be allowed, in contrast to several cases where the two people had signed each other’s Postal Vote Statements, which led to both votes being rejected (the dates of birth were both wrong too).
That should be a lesson to people tempted to name their children after themselves! I’m not sure how two votes to the same household with the same name were distinguished, but there must have been some way. Some of the mismatched pairs only had the same surname though, and that was pure carelessness.
Kenny, I don’t know why there were no exit polls, but I’m not entirely sure why that’s a problem. Immediate post-poll “opinion” polls did the same job anyway, they just weren’t available immediately.
The postal votes were not firmly for Yes. Agents sneaking a look during postal vote reconciliation sessions is a pastime about as old as elections, and you can just bet the Yes agents (or at least some of them) were doing it too. Don’t ask, don’t tell. No election has ever been cancelled because an agent saw the fronts of a few postal votes, and none ever will be. The big mistake Ruth made was telling. It didn’t make any difference to the result.
Postal voting is now encouraged, and has been for quite a few years now, as a way of improving turnout. All parties, including the SNP, send postal vote application forms to their supporters and encourage them to sign up. You may think this is a bad idea, and I might agree with you, but it’s something that’s been around for a while and which governments are probably not going to change.
As far as signing up fraudulent voters is concerned, Labour certainly have a reputation for doing that in the past, in some areas. I understand that new safeguards are being put in place to address this loophole before the election. In any case, it’s much more an issue for tightly-fought constituencies or wards where maybe only a couple of hundred votes separate the candidates. A nationwide referendum is the place where it matters least.
Finally, it’s not something that’s possible on a macro scale. All voters are on the electoral register, and both sides have access to that. If someone has been signing up a lot of fictitious people and/or addresses, someone is going to notice.
There’s an awful lot of paranoia going around, but really, the process is extraordinarily robust at the macro scale. The odd person getting on the register at their parents’ house, or a holiday home, or even fraudulently voting for someone they believe isn’t going to show up, doesn’t a 400,000-vote majority create.
Gallowglass, our polling clerks were telling people to fold the paper once, side to side, with the actual vote inside. All the papers I saw at the count seemed to have been folded like that.
I agree, the whole discussion is completely tedious. However, it’s a topic that seems to keep coming up. I wonder if it was mentioned at the rally yesterday. I think people need to be reassured when they’ve been spooked by shit-stirring meddlers.
On the subject of ballot papers.
The question is what difference does it make?
Presumably the only relevant fear is that people were issued with dummy papers with no codes and the real papers had already been filled out with a believable No ratio, placed in identical sealed ballot boxes and switched out in transit.
All by a bunch of numpties that couldn’t ‘run a bath’?
Doesn’t seem particularly credible.
I wouldn’t rule it out but it seems like something that isn’t worth wasting a huge amount of effort on.
More likely is the theory that Labour instituted the Postal Vote system to create a list of Voters that either didn’t really exist or never voted and would never notice that their votes were being stolen.
Over the course of several elections they could build up a substantial pool of ‘sock-puppet’ voters that they could use to affect small swings in their favour.
Could they have more than half the Postal Votes in Scotland? Seems unlikely.
Nonetheless I think this is the area where all this energy generated by fears over the veracity of the result could be usefully challenged.
There might well be substantial numbers of dodgy Postal Votes and it would be a simple enough task to find out. Get a copy of the list and visit every single one of them at the address they are registered at on the Electoral Roll and confirm that they exist and that they know about their Postal Vote.
It would only take 6000 of us checking 5 a week to get through the whole list by the GE.
If it turns out a large proportion are fake then we can demand a do over, if not we weed out any that there are and we can go into the GE confident that there won’t be any funny business with the Postal Vote.
I fear the entire subject is a distraction and just makes us look like poor losers.
We need to ask, is this a productive use of our time?
If you do feel really strongly about the possibility of vote rigging I would council you to take action by ensuring that the Postal Votes are double checked.
[On a separate topic. I took a MOOC last year about electronic democracy. Fascinating subject. The idea that there might be some sort of mark on my ballot paper that could lead a third party back to me gives me the heebie jeebies. Does the phrase ‘SECRET BALLOT’ mean nothing to anybody! There is a fascinating TED talk by a Dutch guy, I think, can’t remember his name, about a system of paper ballots that come with a tear-off encrypted receipt that would protect the voter’s anonymity whilst allowing them to check that their ballot had been counted accurately which is well worth watching if you can find it. I’ll try and dig up a link.]
@Husker
To be honest I do not really understand why some independence supporters get so bothered about Scottish nationalism. To me it is the MSM trying to cause splits in the independence movement. What does Scottish nationalism stand for? You want Scotland to run its own affairs, free of Trident etc. I do not really see what the problem with this is? I just do not see what is wrong with being a Scottish nationalist. I understand some people who support independence do not see themselves as Scottish nationalists, and that is fine. But the MSM are happy to support British nationalism.
Crazycat, you’re right that the numbers are checked at the postal reconciliation. They’re just not bothered with at the actual polling station or count, unless there has been a report of fraudulent voting.
You know, I even looked up the “Tasmanian dodge”. Gee, why bother?
I still don’t see why anyone intent on large-scale fraud would need to do something as publicly discoverable as issuing fake blank-backed papers to polling stations. If they were going to be substituted anyway, why would it matter whether they were blank?
Surely the polling clerks would notice, at some point in the day, that there was something wrong with the papers they were issuing?
usefully channeled
not
usefully challenged
doh!
@ Morag
“You know, I even looked up the “Tasmanian dodge”. ”
So did I! 🙂
Looks like a ” Blow to Farage” from the BBC.
Interesting that the BBC will now put the boot into UKIP and Farage as they have finally realised what a risk he is to the established order. MSM have no such qualms and will continue to promote him and his warped policies. I use the plural as he actually does have two – anti-immigration and the EU exit.
Perhaps the BBC should not be so forward in inviting UKIP to GE debates from now on.
Interesting times…
P.s. Thankfully, I did not watch the program – no licence – and the BBC and Nigel Farage are a very bad combination.
Just Googled “scottish referendum ballot paper barcode” and came up with,
http://mariamuir.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/1549510_10204189207026872_6043169719906051769_n.jpg
All I know is that I folded my paper in half and if I only saw one side of it was totally white. From the picture of the information on the back, unless I was Paul Daniels on the day, it would be physically impossible to fold the paper in half in any direction leaving one half totally white.
So I can say mines was blank. I have read that blank ones were discarded. I have also read that it did not matter. Will I ever know whether my vote was counted or not, who knows. The whole things seem like a complete disaster.
@Grouse Beater says:13 October, 2014 at 3:55 pm:
Re your reply to B Podmore
“The definition of ‘colonise’ need go no further than one nation state governing another”
Now you see the thinking of the Unionists, Grouse Beater.
Which is where they should be challanged to explain away that Westminster is the de facto parliament of the Country of England. Which, of course means England & the UK parliament are one and the same. Thus by the unbalance of 533 England members and only 117 others to oppose them everyone else is a colony of England.
That situation will remain until Scotland disunites the Union or England gets an elected parliament of her own outside of Westminster. I vote for the former.
crazycat says:
13 October, 2014 at 10:27 pm
“Having read the Lawyers for Yes link that Morag provided, and read the following posts here, I see that what I said about none of the papers at my count lacking an official mark was irrelevant.”
I came to the same conclusion – many thanks for the link Morag.
That’s the kind of info this site is lauded for, and why I’ve been coming back here most days for the past year or so.
One Scot, it is becoming increasingly clear that significant numbers of people simply didn’t notice the printing on the backs of the papers, because they weren’t specifically looking for it and their mind was focussed on what was on the front. In that situation the memory retrieved from the brain will “show” a blank back, because it simply didn’t register, any more than the colour of the wall registered.
I’m one of these. I didn’t notice the printing on the back. I’m perfectly content to acknowledge my mistake. The printing was there.
@brian powell at 7.18 who asked “Could we crowd fund candidates to stand in English constituencies?”
A better idea would be to throw the cat among the pigeons of the Ulster Scats loyalists and orange order. The SNP or even the Greens should stand somewhere in Northern ireland, preferably east, east, east belfast!!!
They really think Scotland is their (spiritual) homeland!
joking apart i don’t know if this is even possible as no british parties (conservatives, cons or lib-dems) stand in ulster though I think there is a lone UKIP member of the NI Assembly and maybe a Green or two.
Anyway to stop navel gazing enjoy gerry cinnamon and have a look at what was going on the the rest of the EU over the weekend http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/water-water-everywhere-not-a-drop-to-drink/
Another thing, One Scot, the numbers of spoiled and discarded papers were published at every count. The total number was very small. The reasons were also published. No cross, or a cross in both boxes (void for uncertainty). Or something written that allowed the voter to be identified. These made up most of them.
Only SIXTEEN papers in the entire country were rejected for lack of the “official mark”. These were papers where the mark had been deliberately defaced for some reason. The printing on the back isn’t the official mark anyway.
Not ONE SINGE PAPER is recorded as having been rejected because the back was blank. Which either means that none of the papers had blank backs, or if there were a few that slipped through having been missed by the printing process, they were counted anyway.
Your vote was counted, if you just put a cross against Yes and didn’t play silly buggers with it otherwise.
Thanks to all who answered my queries, including why:
2. There is not the strictest control over the results of postal votes, while campaigning is still going on. What if the postal votes were firmly for YES?
I was actually talking about a hypothetical scenario here. Not what if they HAD BEEN, but what if they WERE in another fictional referendum.
On the one hand, I do not think it is good psychologically to go over the vote, discrepancies…. especially when, in my view, the best part was the polls which secretly showed YES reaching 53%! Surely that is a good base on which to move forwards!
On the other hand, I do think it is important for the FUTURE to record all discrepancies. What if we send 50-60% SNP MPs to Westminster in 2015? And we are told: but you voted no in 2014! In my mind, it must be illegal anyway for a region to hold a referendum on independence and for the media to be controlled by the govt trying to hold onto them, especially when it is shown to have told outright lies. Think of the future and how we will write the history of our country from 2020 or 2025, say, when we have indy. Do we really want to not have all these discrepancies, lies, cheating, Davison’s criminality, etc. not on the record books when we write the history books our children must study when they want to learn of the struggle for our self-determination and our right to be a nation?
So let it be an academic exercise, record everything, but not to dwell over — to record for posterity, and to make sure like mistakes are not made again!