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Wings Over Scotland


Chinese whispering

Posted on August 09, 2016 by

An alert reader spotted this today:

labpresschina

How times have changed, eh, readers?

Because the story linked in that tweet includes this paragraph:

trickettchina

But just three months ago, Labour – and remember, there is only one Labour Party in the UK – had a somewhat different view of Chinese investment.

slabchinastorify

We’re no absolutely sure, but as far as we can tell, the rule for accepting investment from China is “As long as Brian Souter doesn’t know about it, you’re fine”.

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    1. 09 08 16 14:56

      Chinese whispering | speymouth

    2. 24 08 16 08:18

      Re-Run to the Hills | A Wilderness of Peace

    161 to “Chinese whispering”

    1. Clootie says:

      …which Labour Press Team faction though?

    2. Bob Mack says:

      Plus ca change,plus sa meme.

      It is only good Chinese money when it is given to the” right “people don’t you know.
      They could send infiltrators to spy on their investments. In the event of hostilities they could shut down the roads and power stations they invested in.
      Cunning lot the Chinese.

    3. Breastplate says:

      SNPvery bad, bad bad

    4. Macart says:

      Wait, I’m confused now. 😮

      So, and this is a wild guess mind, its mainly bad if its anything proposed or initiated by an SNP Scottish Government.

    5. So Labour’s on the Wong side again?

    6. Dan Huil says:

      Hypocritical britnat scum.

    7. MajorBloodnok says:

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: hypocrisy is a (if not the) defining characteristic of the British Establishment.

    8. gordoz says:

      SNP baaad is the real message from Labours media – surely?

      Nicola’s Indy dream is cursed by the Oil mind !!!!

    9. carjamtic says:

      Labour a lot to learn.

      There is a difference is knowing your shit and knowing you’re shit.

      A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step….no,we are not going to take your hand to see you across the road.

      #erseholesdynasty

    10. mogabee says:

      I’d love to see some truly large posters with before and after Labour vomiting press releases!

      O/T

      Congrats to my daughter on her exam results today..well pleased and proud of her.

      All that despite the terrible education that she’s had under the SNPBAD! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    11. rongorongo says:

      “Why Uber was taken for a ride in China”: https://archive.is/SWZlU
      – the degree to which the negotiating platform is stacked against outsiders to China is another aspect of this – at least to the notion that the UK could swap out the EU for China as a trading partner without any burn risk.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      Labour needs to make its mind up. Split into different factions, or unite as one. And, that can be interpretated in several ways!

    13. Inverclyder says:

      Clootie @1:59pm

      …which Labour Press Team faction though?

      Is it…
      Smith and the Pro Tory Labour Blairite Faction?
      Corbyn anti Blairite Pro Union Faction?
      McTernan and the Blow For Sturgeon there’ll never be another referendum faction?
      MacDougal and the United Tuba Players Front faction?
      Dugdale For and Against but mostly against SNP Bad faction?
      Dugdale for but not against some things but still SNP Bad faction?
      The split Labour Scotchland Unionist WATP faction?
      The Jackie Baillie 10 billion Trident Jobs we hate the SNP is there a Greggs near here faction?
      An undercover David Torrance in a Weetabix disguise Pro Unionist anti Twitter faction?

      Or a combination of any of the above?

      OT
      It was good to hear that Kezia Dugdale is marrying her partner and I’m sure everyone that uses WINGS will congratulate her on giving up her Independence to join a Union?! Well done Kez!

    14. Vambomarbeleye says:

      China deals with England now in question because of Hinkley point. They really know how to gain friends and influence people.

    15. Ian says:

      [UK]’Government’s continued failure to develop a modern industrial strategy and provide the infrastructure and other investment needed to deliver it. Only Labour are prepared to take the decisive action, including a £500 billion investment programme backed up a National Investment Bank, that is needed to stop our economy collapsing’

      Ok I admit it, Labour do have a sense of humour.

      Hi ho, hi ho, it’s off to the House of Lords that I want to go.

    16. Stephen McKenzie says:

      Donald Anderson @ 2:09

      Yes that was very good!..

    17. heedtracker says:

      Also nasty example of how old Blair likes to wallow in the UKOK sewer too.

      Blair McDougall ?
      ?@blairmcdougall
      Nicola Sturgeon refuses to answer on China bribes allegations http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-refuses-to-answer-on-china-bribes-allegations-1-4091811
      10:50 PM – 5 Apr 2016

    18. Dr Jim says:

      One minute the SNP are evil geniuses, the next minute they’re incompetent imposters
      A minute after that they’re a totalitarian regime, then they’re lax in government
      Our schoolkids are being let down by the SNP and leave school unable to read and write except when they pass all their exams and then it’s didn’t the teachers do well despite the authoritarian dictats of the SNP

      Scotland is a shithole and an abject failure under the SNP says all the papers while at the same time they say…

      Aye we might have oil but it’s useless, Aye we’ve got tourism but that’ll go away, Aye we’ve got scenery but it rains then people will lose faith and not come back, Aye we’ve got some of the best technical people in the world but they’ll go away to America, and they won’t send us a letter from there

      Well every supporter of Independence in Scotland knows one other thing we all wish would go away

      Shitehawk no mark “Journalists”

      (And you will)

    19. heedtracker says:

      Sorry about that direct non archive.is link to hootsman smear thing although to be fair, its Bliar MacDonothing that uses it to smear Strugeon with bribery. Actually they both do.

      Nicola Sturgeon refuses to answer on China bribes allegations

      Nicola Sturgeon was asked directly about the corruption allegations while on the campaign trail in Orkney. Picture: PA

      Nicola Sturgeon has refused to say if she knew about corruption allegations surrounding the owner of one of the Chinese companies that she signed a £10 billion investment agreement with.

      With Jackie Baillie leaping into the tory sewer alongside Blair, the Hootsman and having a rare old wallow in their own ordure,

      “Labour’s Jackie Baillie, said: “The more we find out about the SNP’s secret deal, the more questions it raises. The allegations of corruption show that this deal stinks.”

    20. Proud Cybernat says:

      Chinese whispers…

      SNPBAD
      UNPOAD
      UNGOAD
      UKGOAD
      UKGOOD

      Ah – got it!

    21. Robert Peffers says:

      Confucius he say, “Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance.”

      Yon Confucius gadgie fare kent a thing or twa aboot the Scottish accoontin unit o the London Labour pairty.

      Whit fare confoons me aboot Confusius is hoo he spaks siccna afu guid Inglis leid.

    22. jimnarlene says:

      carjamtic says:

      “There is a difference is knowing your shit and knowing you’re shit.”

      Now that is, as they, a keeper.

    23. Helena Brown says:

      Apparently the Chinese are not that happy with the May Government. Not happy about the Nuclear Power Station, in the FT today.
      Might prefer us to Westminster in the end.
      Congrats to Miss Dugdale, I hope they both will be very happy.

    24. Sinky says:

      Worth pointing out to Labour’s press team and supporters that latest You Gov Polls give Tories 42% and Labour 28%.

      http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

      Which coupled with boundary changes will give Theresa May a 90 seat majority in 2020.

      http://archive.is/qXKBA

      It’s never been clearer – Home Rule or Tory Rule for a generation.

      Same goes for Lib Dem hopes of a coaltion with a breakaway right wing Labour grouping.

    25. “Part of the Maoist project was the deliberate construction of a new moral identity. To do this it was necessary to destroy people’s previous sense of who they were and to make sure there was no room for it grow back.”
      ? Jonathan Glover, Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century
      Edit:- First lie: delete ‘Maoist’, and insert: ‘Blairist’.
      I see Blair McDougall (how is he making a living these days?) and the idiotic grinning Hanger On James Kelly are tweeting childish rubbish on this one.
      But they are neo conservative spawn of multi millionaire Tony, surely? Labour’s sense of who it was was excised from the Party as soon as Blair, Brown, and Mandelson took over.
      The dregs that are left of the Fourth Division class of Labour proto councillors after their humiliation in May Up Here beggars belief.
      Seriously, because I know they read this essential blog, are there any young people in the alleged 17,000 Labour members in Scotland, who reckon that James Kelly, Jackie Baillie, Jenny Mara, Johan Lamont, Iain Gray, Neil Findlay, Alex Rowley, and Kezia Dugdale are up to it?
      Petty, puerile, toe jam badgering from a sad bunch of amateurs.
      Can anybody really see Kezia, Ruth, or Wullie as FM?
      If I cared, I’d be boiling mad at this bunch of cheap trick wasters representing me and mine.

    26. Craig P says:

      Labour. To quote Colonel Mustard and the Dijon 5, they’re “Wong on so many levels.”

    27. mr thms says:

      Don’t forget this Labour government decision from 2008..

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7730774.stm

      “A senior Chinese official has welcomed the UK’s decision to recognise Beijing’s direct rule over Tibet.”

    28. Grouse Beater says:

      Personally, I’ve reached the stage where any newspaper stating one thing one day and the opposite the next should be fined for wasting the public’s time and good newsprint.

      It isn’t sloppy journalism, it’s corrupt journalism.

    29. Al Dossary says:

      Trade deals with China – baaad idea. The US currently has a yearly defecit with China of around $365 million per annum.

      https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

    30. Dunks says:

      Craig P says:
      9 August, 2016 at 4:21 pm
      Labour. To quote Colonel Mustard and the Dijon 5, they’re “Wong on so many levels.

      I wish you would all take a hike with your Chinese inferences.

      The wok will do you good!

    31. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      According to Michael Gray in today’s National, an ex-Labour adviser told him that “any strategy focused on winning a region like Scotland [that is] smaller than north-west England [is] bound to be self-defeating”.

      (NB: Scotland is just another “region” to them.)

      Well, there you have it, Kez. The interests of big England trump puir wee Scotland every time, with Labour no less than with the Tories. London head office may still be funding your wee branch office for now but otherwise you’re going to have to sink or swim all on your ownsome. You’re beyond redemption and not worth the bother.

      No wonder there are mixed messages, and not just re China. Labour’s left hand knoweth not what the other left hand is doing!

    32. Returnofthemac says:

      Labour are Wong on so many occasions. Kez could maybe “WING” the Rev. For some advice.But then again she would probably WING the Wong number. (Oldie)
      O/T How dare Hazel Irvine say today that Roger Moore was the best James Bond ever. Erse licking or what!!!

    33. galamcennalath says:

      From the National …

      Gay Conservative MSP Annie Wells has told the Huffington Post: “I get more abuse for being a Tory in Scotland than I do for being a gay woman.”

      … Obviously!

    34. Peter Clive says:

      Casual racism is second nature to the establishment:

      http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-natives.html

    35. revjimbob says:

      You don’t think Labour HQ bother checking what the local branch members have been saying, in case they contradict them, do you?

    36. Donald says:

      Anent kez’s new union – at least she has had the sense to go for an optional, reversible, union of equals.
      Best wishes for a future with considered matured views!

    37. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      http://archive.is/8loz7

      “David Leask: Why I am not quitting Twitter” – an article about David Torrance.

      Here’s an example of how these “impartial” journalists regularly fall down.

      This option of “switch off” or “switch over”, however, does not seemed to have appealed to some more zealous independence supporters.

      So much so they have driven David off Twitter.

      Well, I’ve scoured the headlines, done google searches, and nowhere can I find a report of David Torrance walking along Twitter Street, a black 4×4 saloon screeching to a halt, two men jumping out of the back blindfolding and gagging David and dragging him into the back, “driving off” with a screech of tyres and disappearing into the distance.

      It’s a secret, only known to columnists apparently.

    38. yesindyref2 says:

      Two wongs don’t make a wight.

    39. Proud Cybernat says:

      Yoonyoonists need to ask themselves a serious question here. Imagine – I know it might hurt but try – that Scotland was an independent country. Do you really think in that circumstance we would really be reading any of this? No – we most like would not. We would be applauding Scotland’s FM for doing her best to try and attract inward investment to Scotland.

      So, ask yourself why is this a bad thing when part of the UK? There is only one answer – it is nothing but silly muck-raking by Yoons trying to find a piece of dirt – ANY peice of dirt – to sling at the FM of Scotland. That is just how low and ridiculous the Yoon poloticians and its compliant colonial media have become.

      FFS open your eyes to what’s really going on in this country and realise who your REAL enemy is. It’s not Scoland’s present First Minister. Only a total idiot would think that.

    40. Connor McEwen says:

      Whit aboot the B. R. I. C. Brazil, Russia, India, China currency malarkey. Is that still a goer? Could wee not have a look at that?

      Was Gaddaffi not linked with his own currency or summit like tha so had to be dealt with. See what happened there!

      Have to join in what is wong with that?

    41. robertknight says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      “Labour’s left hand knoweth not what the other left hand is doing!”

      Come on, everyone knows that the left hand is scratching the left armpit, whilst the right hand is scratching the head. Throw in a pair of Union Jack shorts and Jeremy will be set to brave his adoring public!

    42. Stoker says:

      The Red Tories are corrupt hypocritical chancers who will never be forgiven for their part in the destruction of the Scottish referendum in 2014 and Scotland’s future prosperity.

      The complete destruction and death of their Scottish branch office cannot come quick enough. Absolute justice for a mob who have repeatedly crapped on Scotland for outside interests.

      We must make them pay heavily at the 2017 Council Elections.
      Keep Scotland Tidy – Bin The Trash
      Thursday 4 May 2017 – No more LibLabCons – Vote SNP

    43. Proud Cybernat says:

      I’m sure the Scots-Chinese for Indy will be having a right old belly laugh at the silly language being used by some in this thread.

      Or maybe not.

    44. Roger Hyam says:

      Now may be an opportune moment to point out that China are already threatening us over Hinkley Point C

      https://www.ft.com/content/b28e83a6-5d86-11e6-a72a-bd4bf1198c63

      It is how bilateral deals will go when you are a small fish and not in a club like the EU. It really doesn’t matter if you’re 6 million or 60 million if the other guy is 1,300 million!

    45. Robert Peffers says:

      It’s what the Chinese ambassador said to Nicola when she signed the deal, “I may be Wong but I think you’re wonderful”.

    46. Al Dossary says:

      Whoopsie – my post @ 4:36 should have read as the US-China trade defecit being around $365 BILLION, not millions.

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      @
      Roger Hyam says: 9 August, 2016 at 5:39 pm:

      “Now may be an opportune moment to point out that China are already threatening us over Hinkley Point C.”

      https://www.ft.com/content/b28e83a6-5d86-11e6-a72a-bd4bf1198c63

      Err! Whose this, “us”, you speak of, Roger?

      Scotland’s government have nothing whatsoever to do with the Westminster Establishment’s decisions on that nuclear fuelled power station and the majority of Scottish voters want nothing whatsoever to do with nuclear power plants. So I ask again, Roger, Who are this, “We”, you speak of?

    48. call me dave says:

      While reading this thread and thinking how lucky Scotland was to have the SNP in government I was listening to the radio: 🙁
      —————————————————————

      Jenny Mara mouthing off loudly there on radio shortbread about the bad SNP not gearing up for decommissioning in the North Sea.

      Contract going abroad. £40bn in work in the next 30 years an opportunity lost no investment etc etc.

      Mara giving it large and getting free reign:

      “If I were in Sturgeon’s high heels I would be down to Westminster etal and calling on work for Scottish workers” etc etc.

      “It’s tragic” says Mara.

      “We’ve missed the boat” says shortbread radio shortbread cutting across Chris Law SNP who was much to polite in my view trying to explain the nuts & bolts and some investment in Dundee with talks proceeding and so on.

      Wish instead that he would have taken a few seconds to put the boot to the ‘Scottish labour’s’ record.

      Good old Auntie. Par for the course.

      OH they just said Murray wins tennis in round 2.
      Ach well that’s a blessing!

    49. Gary45% says:

      So The Blue Tories seem to be out of touch with the English electorate also.
      There seems to be a growing resentment from the yoons regarding Chinese influence in the UK.
      Up here in gods country, I don’t think we have a problem with any nation trading commerce with us, I think that is one of the many reasons Scotland is treated differently fro the rest of the UK.
      Personally I would trade with any of the “Big Players”, except Israel, yes I accept human rights issues etc.(Is the UK any different? probably worse over the centuries)
      On a happier note, emergency currency 1Lion arrived today,
      woohoo
      Going for a wee sortie to deepest Brexit country on Thursday, 1pound notes, Vile Cybernat bag, Saltire/EU and Yes stickers ready, thinking about taking a Yes Saltire flag to hang out the hotel.
      Might do a bit of sheep rustling, If we get bored winding up the yoons

    50. China is going to be the major world player in 21st Century,

      Nicola as usual is ahead of the curve,looking after Scotland

      while Gardham, Torrance, Baillie and McDougall and the rest of the blairite/thacherite yoons sit on their arses slagging their country off,

      these people are hurting/damaging our countries reputation with the rest of the world,

      Scotland wants to go forward with China,

      while these dead weights want to remain in the past shackled to a fantasy Brutish Empire.

    51. CameronB Brodie says:

      What a shambles everyone is in to kiss Chinese ass. Quite frankly vile and I mean that in all sincerity folks.

      …“The government has made this calculation, which is a false one, that any concern about human rights will damage investment and trade,” said David Mepham, UK Director of Human Rights Watch. “This is morally wrong and also politically short-sighted to think that all of these issues can be swept away and you can just have a conversation with the Chinese about investment….” In countries that are more outspoken about human rights, like the US, it is not evident that China is turning its back on them. Quite the contrary. For the past decade, from 2005 to June this year, the US was the top destination for Chinese contracts and investments…

      In short, the UK is an attractive investment prospect. It should not be bullied into submission on human rights by the Chinese government, according to Labour MP Fabian Hamilton…

      https://business-humanrights.org/en/china-uk-trade-deals-chinese-dissident-says-human-rights-are-being-sacrificed-for-sake-of-trade

      @ Labour Press Team
      Although some would argue free trade brings human rights, I’m not convinced. So what does British Labour support? Free trade or human rights?

    52. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ Labour Press Team
      You are aware that the British state prevents Scots from accessing their right to development?

      That’s the denial of human rights directed towards an entire nation. Thanks dudes.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_development

    53. NiallD says:

      O/T

      Just watching Misreporting Scotland. So lots of good news around the exam results….don’t be silly! Any bad news? Maybe and that will have to be investigated by SNPbaaad.

      An absolute load of b******ks. Why do I keep watching this biased guff. I must be an eternal optimist believing someday they will do a reasonable and balanced piece. And the wee nyaff who is the education reporter..give me a fucking break. Need to go and lie down!

    54. Ian Foulds says:

      Why are we dealing with the Chinese, apart from them being a ‘super power’ – look at the harm previous ‘super powers’ have wrought on the world.

      My impression is that when you get involved with them, you will pay dearly. That’s before we look at human and animal rights.

      Let everybody else get sucked in, surely we can be successful without doing deals with the ‘devil’

    55. Iain More says:

      Aye SNP just pure evil don’t yah know. Knowing the Brits they probably want to start another Opium War and sell the Chinese smack and crack cocaine just for the hell of it.

      Meanwhile on Britannia TV Aberdeen, Caithness has become home to no less than 170 Brocks! Grrrrrrrrrr!

    56. Robert Peffers says:

      @call me dave says: 9 August, 2016 at 6:01 pm:

      “Wish instead that he would have taken a few seconds to put the boot to the ‘Scottish labour’s’ record.”

      Now, Call me Dave, I’m about to point out a few very obvious facts. I’ve been around this fight for independence since around the mid-1940s and I can remember when, because of the actions of the more lunatic fringes, we independence fighters were regarded as total lunatics.

      It didn’t matter that we had the right arguments and could prove most of our claims because the general public saw the movement as a loony fringe.

      Things like blowing up electricity pylons because they carried Scottish generated power to the south. Threats to blow up radio & TV transmitter antenna, the raid on Westminster to steal the Stone of Destiny – You get the picture?

      Not until the SNP threw out such as, “The Seed of the Gael”, (Siol nan Gaidheal), disassociated the party from such as the Scottish Liberation Army, and thus became more acceptable to Joe Public did the movement begin to make political headway.

      The lesson is that the SNP are doing things right and you do not attempt to sort things that are not broken. At the moment the tide flows in the direction of independence. Let’s not attempt to do a Canute just yet.

    57. Nana says:

      O/T

      Nicola’s interview during her visit to Germany

      http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/sturgeon-117.html

    58. mike cassidy says:

      Surely the funny thing about this tweet is that it coincides with the Chinese suggesting all is not well with UK/China economic relations.

      Well done, Labour.

      All the timing of a Scottish sundial!

    59. Alastair says:

      Owen Smith is the evil of two lessers

    60. G4jeepers says:

      This is why I love Wongs Over Scotland 😀

    61. John Jones says:

      Having watched Theresa ” Maggie” May’s nasty tirade against Jeremy Corbyn, I am depressed that we will have at least over 4 years of this when we had the chance of to elect a government representing our voters.
      Especially if this Hinckley project goes through & we have to pay exorbitant rates for our electricity even though we produce our own at “reasonable” rates.

    62. heedtracker says:

      Its just like watching Flipper Darling smirking at us 2014 and how yes they could have set up a Norway style oil pension fund, but smirky old Flipper had bigger plans.

      And here’s MacTernan again, on C4 teatime news sticking it to JC, how long before he hits his Ken Livingston’s an anti Semite bottom so vote Owen?

    63. Tam Jardine says:

      Nana

      Thanks for posting the link to the FM’S interview – I couldn’t really follow the interview because I was so amazed by the camerawork, the sound, the voiceover, the technical MAGIC on display. Up until now I thought this was the preserve of the BBC.

      It all just seems to come together at the same time and there is even an English language alternative version. Mindboggling stuff.

      I need to sit down and just look at the test signal for a wee rest…

      Congrats on the Golden Wings- deserved a thousand times over x

    64. Dr Jim says:

      There’s that Nicola Sturgeon talking to people again when she was clearly told by our masters she wasn’t allowed to talk to strangers about anything

      Damn her and how very dare she! The woman just will not learn her place

    65. Valerie says:

      @yesindyref2. 5.17pm

      Had a good laugh at Leask, what a lousy piece of writing. The comments are proper quality too, showing up Leask as petulant.

      We now have two journalists crying into their cereal about Twitter, and the audacity of us plebs. It’s a manufactured drama about sod all.

      If there had been any serious threats, then recourse to Police is there to be used. Instead, it was banter, and some Photoshop jobs of a Weetabix with specs.

      These grown men are drama queens of the highest order.

    66. Epiphyta says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 5.36:

      I’m sure the Scots-Chinese for Indy will be having a right old belly laugh at the silly language being used by some in this thread.

      Or maybe not.

      Um. My sister’s mum is Malaysian Chinese, and my sis was on the receiving end of some “fuck off back home” commentary immediately after the EU referendum vote. (“What, Brighton?”)

      I’m not surprised to read some of the comments; brought a bit low, but sadly not surprised.

    67. Chic McGregor says:

      @John Jones.

      Fair point (sic) re Hinkley.

      However we are already paying about 50% more for OFF shore wind produced electricity than we will for Hinkley Point. And off shore will eventually be several times the projected capacity of HP (appropriate acronym). This is not to be confused with ON shore wind production, which is actually now cheaper than coal or gas produced electricity.

      See previous post.
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/about-time-frankly/#comment-2171058

    68. Grouse Beater says:

      This is why I love Wongs Over Scotland”

      That’s the way everything is going these days; you’re biggest market is China. Be a wise guy and make sure you add the Chinese element to your product.

    69. Lochside says:

      @ Robert Peffers re. Call me Dave who wrote:

      “Wish instead that he would have taken a few seconds to put the boot to the ‘Scottish labour’s’ record.”

      Robert, we all know that you’ve been an SNP supporter since God was a boy, but it doesn’t give you any right to misinterpret what Call me Dave was suggesting. You gave spurious examples of terrorist actions such as blowing up pylons etc. This was not the point that our fellow contributor was making.

      I watched a Jeremy Corbyn supporter put McTernan in his place on Channel 4 News by referring to his disatrous interventions in Australia and Scotland, where Labour were ‘wiped out’ ( I paraphrase). McTernan actually stayed silent. When was the last time an SNP politician, other than AS or NS actually got stuck in, verbally?

      This is the point that many, like me, are fed up of. The pussy footing approach to political debate. We want SLAB’s and the Tories disgraceful records smashed to smithereens with words not actions. Unless the SNP do this, then we face a rerun of the REF. Think Blair Jenkins or any of the powder puff performances on QT and no crushing repostes on the opposition, just weak justifications being over talked by Dimblebore etc.

      We have to accept that 30% of our population are too hard core Unionist to change. The remainder are there to be convinced by strong arguments made with conviction, not apologies. So please don’t obfuscate the debate on here Robert..let the Unionist try that game themselves.

      Do you get it now, Robert?

    70. HandandShrimp says:

      The faux posturing over discussions with Sino Forte were proof if any were needed that the Bain principle is not yet dead. Labour and the Tories will happily talk with the Chinese over business and investment but if the SNP do it then it has to be bad.

      I am pretty damned sure that most if not all the whinging idiots Tweeting away in Stu’s piece above did so on devices made in China. Hypocritical Muppets that they are.

    71. SOG says:

      OT I know, and apologise, but I’ve not seen it elsewhere. There has been a dramatic rise in applications to join the Labour party: we’ve all seen the fuss. Has anyone seen actual numbers from Scotland quoted?

    72. defo says:

      Deng Xiaoping. What a guy !

      yesindyref2 says:
      “So much so they have driven David off Twitter.”

      “Well, I’ve scoured the headlines, done google searches, and nowhere can I find a report of David Torrance walking along Twitter Street, a black 4×4 saloon screeching to a halt, two men jumping out of the back blindfolding and gagging David and dragging him into the back, “driving off” with a screech of tyres and disappearing into the distance.”

      You tease. What happened next, and were there power tools involved ?
      😉
      Remember though, the Firm doesn’t pay ransom on disposables.

    73. Andrew McLean says:

      Robert,
      Of course they did, I myself was mistaken for a special branch officer, along with young guy who dare I say it now a Exec of Johnston press, te he fuckng He!
      Anyway of course among many a political following you will get the loony who will “kick you to death” just so happens the real special branch are looking out at yoons, a dam site more than the frigin idiot who may support independence. Just remember https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oYQ_MBFmpi8

    74. Andrew McLean says:

      Lock side,
      30% to hard core, really, dont be frightened, as I always say, what is the worst that could happen? 🙂

    75. heedtracker says:

      Labour bollox aside, looks like Norway wont have much to do with teamGB either

      http://archive.is/WMrLw

      Scottish Fishing Federation are also going mental at their imperial master baiters for not including any Scottish Fishing rep in Brexit negotiations. All just like their The Vow shyst. When will these people learn that Scottish affairs are far better dealt with by the English? The dicks.

      I mean useful idiots.

    76. mr thms says:

      #headtracker @9:48pm

      Thanks for the link..

      A part of the article refers to the difference in population between EFTA and the UK.

      It says..

      “The total current membership of the EFTA is 14 million, but the UK population is 55 million”

      Except the figure of 55 million is the population of England..

    77. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heed:

      Scottish Fishing Federation are also going mental at their imperial master baiters for not including any Scottish Fishing rep in Brexit negotiations. All just like their Vow shyst.

      Ah, so sad. And so very predictable.

      As the old saying goes “fooled me once, your fault; fooled me twice, my fault”.

      But this is just a little taster of what’s to come over Brexit. A relentless stream of bad news that even the EBC won’t be able to gloss over.

      And with every item, more people finally getting the picture and one step closer to indy.

    78. Capella says:

      O/T from previous thread – got a spare £10.5m? Tillypronie Estate up for sale – the one David Cameron was viewing – allegedly. The Astors see the writing on the wall for burnt grouse-moor. Nice picture of a devastated landscape too.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-37009799

    79. Another Union Dividend says:

      Worth reading Derek Bateman’s article on the SNP deputy leadership contenders.

      http://derekbateman.scot/2016/08/09/yer-man/

      A great varied choice and unlike Labour no £25 fee to vote thus denying the hoi polloi a democratic say.

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      Yes, thanks for the Sturgeon link, I was able to use what she said straight away in a Herald posting. For what that’s worth of course.

    81. carjamtic says:

      Epiphyta @ 8:45

      Lin Quote on Chinese Humour (Youmo)

      “Thoughtful humour,is based on the perception of human errors,incongruities,cant and hypocrisy,which admittedly are shared by all of us.

      The comic spirit in that human understanding,which,being higher than academic intelligence,rises above the confusion and self deception of our common notions and points it finger at life’s sham,futility and follies.”

      (don’t go to the barra’s on a weekday,they’re shut,however,if you are ever in Easterhouse and a hostile mob start running towards you screaming ‘Den-Toi Ya Bass’ best make a swift getaway,chances are you may have inadvertently insulted them,C’est la vie)

    82. mike cassidy says:

      Thank goodness Scottish Labour saved us from independence.

      Think what we would be missing.

      http://archive.is/KnGsS

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      David Leask annoys me, whereas Torrance is basically nothing. I vaguely remember someone posting a year or more ago here that Leaak was a YES voter, and that’s well possible, his series “As others see us” during the Ref was very good.

      But he is like “What would an expeienced hack like me know” if anyone challenges him. yet he himself is doing the right thing with twitter, he says he blocks the “ringleaders”, and manages to stay below the horizon. He should have been criticisng Torrance as a wuss, not attacking his “attackers”.

      He needs to stop having such a high opinion of himself, and then maybe others would have a higher opinion of him.

    84. heedtracker says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      9 August, 2016 at 10:31 pm
      heed:

      Its a tough business UKOK politics. Look at how the Graun used them in their campaign to pull Scotland down to England’s Brexit levels. This kind of take back control of your fish Scotland fraud probably took 5% off Remain in Scotland. But with a possible ref 2 trigger, its pretty clear why they were starting to get to Project Fear 2014 levels of sneaky campaigning. These are only tory hacks and editors though, not an actual registered political party. Madasfuck BetterTogether Britnat style.

      http://archive.is/FRRtS

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      @defo
      Ah well, the black autos take him to a disused meat packing plant, and hang him carefully on a hook by his tanktop. Torrance whimpers “look what you’ve done”, as threads are pulled. Then in comes Jack – Jack Bauer! “You’re going to tweet” he says.

      Torrance looks at Bauer. Bauer looks at Torrance. Torrance looks at Bauer (repeat). Jack hits him several times with a feather but Torrance is made of sterner stuff than that. Jack pours water over Torrance and makes him squeeze the two ends of an AAA battery. No result. Torrance glows a little. Jack pulls out his gun, puts in the gluestick and glues Torrance’s glasses to his tanktop. But our man Torrance is strong, and refuses to tweet.

      Then in walks – Chloe. Chloe! With one kind of mouth-puckering complaint and a few words, Torrance is like putty and a tear falls from one glass e’e. “OK OK”, he says, “I’ll go back on Twitter”.

      But meanwhile in 2044 … [cut, end of program]

    86. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      OT
      If you have a cat or want a present for someone that does, there’s a wee gift shop up from Zavaroni’s in Rothesay, I was there a few weeks back with wife and though not into “kitsch” myself, nearly forced her to buy this small cat plaque thing with some birthday money. It has printed on it:

      “What part of meow don’t you understand?”.

    87. Effijy says:

      Dipity Dug had a first date with her partner on Portobello
      Beach.

      As they first kissed, a passing friend of the partner was heard to say:

      “Christ hen, whit were ye thinking about, the tide widnae take that Oot”!

      The partner must be terrified as Dipity is Pro something one week and anti the same thing the next week.
      Their wedding cake should maybe be made from that long life cream.

    88. Dr Jim says:

      Are these fishermen not complaining about the wrong people here, they’ve never been represented by a Scottish government in the EU all the negotiating was done by Westminster so if they thought they got a bad deal why blame the SNP

      Bearing in mind also if memory serves me correctly was it not Donald Dewar who sold out the “Expendable” fishermen anyway

      Same deal with farmers, Agriculture is reserved to Westminster ministers not the SG but the SG have to manage the bad management of the UK government

      Or do they all know this and hope the UK will deal fairly with them apres Brexit because if they’re waiting for that they might as well dig a big deep hole set it on fire and wait for it to freeze over

      When are NO voting folk in Scotland ever going to realise that if our Arses went on fire with toxic waste and our faces fell off from disease the UK wouldn’t give a toss

      They want our country, not the people in it

      I’m going to visit my brother tomorrow near Castle Douglas
      he’s retired like me but even older got a few acres there and a good house and he’s done well and been there ten years or so

      He has no Scottish neighbours, none, but he does have quite a few new British neighbours who have moved into the North British part of their Empire and have decided Scottish people are in the way

      I’m taking him a five feet by three feet Saltire for his roof, at least it’ll be a laugh us two old codgers climbing up to stick a flagpole up, it’s a big hoose

    89. scotspine says:

      @ Capella

      You may be right about these folk seeing the writing on the wall for their Grouse Moor. Others may follow.

      Last year was bad for grouse numbers and this year is even worse. The poor weather has made for low breeding success and high mortality. I would imagine that no one wants to pay top dollar to come to a moor where there is nothing to shoot?.

      These places often run at a loss, because they are an offset for Tax.

    90. dakk says:

      OT

      Hungary is ahead of Imperial Team GB in Olympics medal standings.lol

      BritNat broadcasters faces tripping themselves.

      Well they would make it about team GB rather than individual sporting excellence wouldn’t they.

      Enjoy the sport tossers,get over yourselves ?

    91. Tam Jardine says:

      Lochside

      I also want to see more focused and aggressive performances. The depth of talent is there and the strongest performers stand out. There can be a nervousness sometimes which is understandable- no-one in the SNP after all wants to let the team down or give the brit-nats ammunition or have a “car-crash” or whatever.

      Every interview, discussion, panel, every tv appearance or radio appearance should be seen as an opportunity to sink in reality into the national consciousness.

      If the union has been so great for us, why has our population flatlined for the last century? Why is our old age pension the worst in the EU. What is the value of our share of reserves in the Bank of England? What is the estimate of the shared assets of the UK? What is the value of UK debt? How much oil and gas tax has been squandered by westminster? What is the Norwegian oil fund worth?

      And many, many more- point is the “deficit of £15 billion” is mentioned by every yoon every time they are on TV or radio and it sticks- they keep it simple and have the benefit of the message being repeated endlessly by the joons. So we need to dispel this shit and sink our own simplistic stats and facts in every time our reps are on air and it needs to float round cyberspace on endless tweets/posts etc. And drop it in conversation whenever we can. Then eventually it sinks in and becomes common knowledge.

      There is a lot of talk about the next indyref campaign, indyref2 in 2017…. the media’s BT project fear UKOK campaign has never stopped. They are working (in the absence of proper political opposition) to hammer us everyday. The percentage of exports to rUK versus EU? If you don’t know that number by now I would bet my life and everything I own that you will know that fucking number better than you know your own pin number in 6 months time.

      You’ll know it like you know your own name.

      We have every advantage except the media. Westminster is sucking us out of the EU in a move that will harm to different degrees farmers, business owners and workers alike, students, EU migrants, non-EU migrants, our families who live abroad, anyone working in research, anyone working in finance, anyone who has savings or a pension, anyone who plans on living in the EU in the future and our children. We have the most right wing, profligate, irresponsible, insidious, callous government the UK has seen in modern times and the opinion polls are sitting just above 50% for indy?

      Just because article 50 hasn’t been triggered and Nicola hasn’t called the damn thing doesn’t mean it isn’t on.

      I get your frustration. I feel it too. A start would be honing down the strongest half dozen points to make why the UK has been bad for Scotland. And a half dozen points to make as to why Scotland can thrive. Then get to know them like we know our own pin number. Then get the public to know them like they know their own pin number.

      It can be done- BT taught us that.

    92. dakk says:

      Mon the Magyayorszag 🙂

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      @dakk
      They’ve obviously hungrier for medals than Team GB.

    94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tam & Lochside,

      I agree with you both that rebuttal – and not just by the SNP – needs to be much tougher. Not nasty or bitter, just smarter. Aware of the likely lies, and ready with a fast counter. Even better, make the running instead of always being on catchup.

      What we have to be especially on the lookout for upcoming is a sneaky yoon double whammy: Scottish economy hurting due to UK Brexit (like everywhere else) but being used by the BritNats as a “too wee, too poor” argument against indy!

      Oh, and I happened to stumble upon this article which is of some relevance:

      http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/08/13/confronting-and-refuting-political-lies/DqojwnVw9gDGWzAn2WrI6L/story.html

    95. Artyhetty says:

      Re; DrJim@11.57pm

      Careful up on that roof DrJim. We are down in SW Scotland, family hol, near Stranraer. Lots houses for sale, and old businesses like garages. Stranraer looks a bit downtrodden, the harbour area all but derelict. Must be hard for young people round here. Suspect lots of them leave. Seen some community projects, part EU funded, hmm. Nice area and very friendly people, love the gentle Scottish voices, all needs more investment, in some way.

      Have spotted one or two saltires. 🙂

    96. Molly says:

      Anyone know how a fab deal with the Chinese Govt is going to work out for DEFRA?

      When the EU support stops coming will the staff be left counting the 5ps from the sale of poly bags?

      Maybe David Torrance ( an expert on everything ) will write an article on it.

      Might be more than just the Scottish fishing federation demanding the Scottish Govt do something.

      If only we had a media who could have asked these questions …

    97. Breeks says:

      I “get” that the likes of Scottish militants were toxic and dangerous for the interests of Scottish Independence, but to be honest, I don’t there are many amongst us who dwell upon the issue. We are all of us entirely thankful that the SNP engages in mature modern politics. So far so good.

      The problem I see is their tolerance for this thoroughly rotten propaganda regime passing itself off as broadcast media. It is this media machine which has the Home Counties convinced we are grubby little parasites thoroughly ungrateful about all the handouts we get from England.
      It is the same mechanism which waters down the potency of the litany of betrayals and injustices Scotland has suffered for decades. Every controversial issue from McCrone to Brexit has the fuse taken out before the information is considered safe for the Scottish population to handle.

      Right now, I have a problem with SNP watching the polls to best time its jump for Indyref2. Its not because I disagree with that, its because the capacity which Brexit has to swing us over to Independence is small change by comparison with the techtonic readjustment which would occur in Scotland’s political landscape if we woke up one morning to a new, honest media which properly addressed these grievous injustices and had thd issues properly articulated to the people whom they aggrieve. It need not be sensationalsed into Scottish propaganda rather than the current UK propaganda, the humble truth would be quite damning enough. Where are our priorities? Why not attend to matters BEFORE they are filtered and prioritised by the media? Why respect their agenda at the cost of our own?

      That leaves me with 3 big issues which I need explained to me.

      First is Scotland’s constitutional status in law. If Scotland was a popular republic following the Declaration of Arbroath, then why isn’t that issue of Scotland’s sovereignty at the front of our campaign? We leave Scotland’s powers at home, and seek to divorce ourselves from Westminster using only the instruments which Westminster allows us to use. Are we not missing the point here?

      The second big issue is media. Scotland’s interests, from sporting events right across the spectrum to our constitutional issues are manipulated and distorted on a daily basis. Is it any wonder that half our nation is duped by this cacophony of disingenuous clap trap? It is the living embodiment of an abusive partner continually eroding the confidence and self worth of the partner they abuse. We know the mechanics of it, the cause and effect, so why is it tolerated and passively endorsed? There was an expression which came about surrounding kiddie porn that said if you looked, you were guilty. I feel a bit like that with the media. If you appear on it, you give it legitimacy.

      My third concern is the deferrence to our superiors which is not compatible with the previous two paragraphs. To what extent are we an Independent sovereign country living the myth that 300 years of tradition has become the accepted reality, when constitutionally, sovereignty is bound to our people in perpetuity? Through Holyrood, we are using an instrument of Westminster to exercise the limited powers which Westminster allows us to use. This is just like Scotland’s revenue. We send our sovereignty south and rejoice at the powers delegated back to us in exactly the same way are our revenue heads south and pocket money is returned to us. It rather seems to me we are engaged in a struggle which is by and large a mere construct of our imagination. Can’t we call a summit; a National forum where our law lords, our politicians, our historians, and have our constitutional experts cut through all the bunkum and define in no uncertain terms what our constitutional situation actually is by legal definition, before we proceed any further in seeking to redefine the constitutional fudge we are living under? Why do we need Westminster to give us that which is already ours?

      If the Law is on the side of an Independent Scotland, and it seems to me it is, then why do we ignore it? Every law and article agreed after that legal watershed is not competent legisation. Our Unionist brethren might not like it, but whatever followed, for better or worse, it would at least have confirmed legal legitimacy which our current constitutional arrangements merely, and erroneously, assumes.

    98. defo says:

      yesindyref2. Horrible.
      You could turn that into a cereal…

      I would have gone down the organic route, and have them waterboard the fanny.

      Excellent arse exposure once again Stuart !
      It’s like Orca playing with seals.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      @defo
      Previously … Torrance has endured the worst torture a remarkably politically correct Jack Bauer has performed on him but has succumbed to the tender glowers of Chloe.

      But meanwhile in 2044 Dr Cassandra Railly has her instructions and travels back to 2016. She runs into the room, injects Torrance and he is transported back to 2044, where he is grabbed by the 12 Tory Monkeys, who are intent on keeping the plague in power in Westminster back in 2016. She shoots Jack who says, “oh no, not again”, and quickly cauterises, binds and magically heals his fatal wound.

      In 2016 David Leask reaches for his tablet and swallows it: “They’ll never force me off twitter, the cybermonkeys”. He runs off never to be seen until the next episode, muttering about Scottish Limited Liability Partnerships and Scottish connections, as others from Romania and Russia see us. Jack and Chloe dance out hand in hand, another 24 successfuly concluded. Will there be another one?

      A bit actor called Dugdale wanders onto the set, says stongly and definitely: “what am I doing here, I’m not a member of the acting Union, or am I?” and wanders off again.

      But the time machine operator in 2044 who happens to the the leader of the SNP from 2016 in a curious twist of plot, has a painful decision to make. Should she rescue Torrance, who is muttering repeatedly “save me SNP, save me”. She decides to hold a referendum to test public opinion, but is saved by the 12 monkeys who say in chorus “We don’t want him, send him back please, wee nippy”.

      And that’s the half-season break!

    100. Kevin Evans says:

      I remember when this story first appeared it was around the same time George Osborne was in China making deals for the UK goverment. My views on the coverage and comments are still the same.

      Basically it’s ok for the uk to talk to China (or any other countries especially recently regarding EU countries) but Scotland needs to get back into its box and into its shackles. How dare they talk to other nations without informing and getting uk approval first.

      That’s basically the story folk. The U.K. Feels undermined by Scotland investing using its own initiative to do it and make deals.

    101. Fred says:

      @ Capella, trouble with grouse is that they can’t be reared artificially like pheasants, they get hammered by disease if the stocking levels are too high & the heather itself which they eat is periodically knocked out by heather beetle. Eagles & hen harriers are the least of their problems & as scotspine says, the weather has been inclement for chix this year. Ah well, I shall be setting aside my Purdey’s this season, what!

      Having eaten grouse I would rather have a fish supper! 🙂

    102. Epiphyta says:

      Carjamtic @ 10.49,

      It’s not clear what you’re trying to say to me, but if it’s “no one here is bothered by these jokes, so don’t direct that side of your family to this site for information if they’re likely to be”? Fair enough.

    103. carjamtic says:

      Epiphyta
      I was suggesting we have more in common than you imagine and that sometimes so called jokes can inavertently cause offence.

      No offence intended from me,others can speak for themselves.

      Have a nice day.

    104. Smallaxe says:

      @ Fred,

      Koi Carp and chips?

    105. Grouse Beater says:

      Breeks

      You won’t like what I have to say: I’ve read every post you’ve dropped into this thread and all of them, without exception, could have been written by David Torrance.

      One long post begins “We are all of us thankful the SNP engages in mature modern politics” and then goes on to list a litany of negatives.

      I don’t know what you mean by ‘modern’ but it reads like the classic con: I used to be an independence supporter but not since the SNP picked up the reins …

    106. Nana says:

      SWFPA not happy with Mundell
      https://twitter.com/SWFPA/status/762703926361743360?lang=en-gb

      and just for a laugh

      I wonder if she is practising to appear on strictly with Ed Balls

      https://twitter.com/Fergoodness/status/763078819481849856?lang=en-gb

    107. james says:

      Do you think she is going to ride on it?

    108. allan28 says:

      Today the Daily Mail lead story in Scotland is £20,000 incentives being provided by the Scottish Government for new GP trainees.This is of course terrible and introduced by ‘desperate Ministers’.

      Funnily enough no mention is made of the £20,000 incentives being provided for new GP trainees in England, a labour market with which we are in competition – http://archive.is/X4bg6

      It is also interesting that while the English incentives appear to be welcomed by the representative bodies contacted there, the representative bodies in Scotland are more grudging in their remarks.

    109. I heard that poltroon Mandelson on Radio 4 this morning pushing this same line.

      All right me ould Chinas ?

    110. SNP are looking for a `Senior Communications Officer`,

      http://tinyurl.com/joj3c6x

      think Stu and a few on Wings would be best for the job,

      the problem being,how can Nicola trust anyone after Andrew Collier stabbed SNP in the back,

      Nicola needs to take a different approach to dealing with Scottish media,

      she has tried conciliation,appeasement,it does not work!

      SNP need to take the offensive,it is the only way to deal with bullies.

    111. Chic McGregor says:

      Breeks
      At some point, preferably from their POV, post BREXIT, Westminster will use the new(ish) Supreme Court to rule that unilateral withdrawal from the UK by Scotland would be illegal.

      This would be consistent with a back bowl policy they have had ever since a similar ruse was conceived by UK and Canadian mandarins during the patriation of Canada negotiations in the 80s when such powers were instilled in the Canadian Supreme Court there. While the necessity of such powers for the required patriation remained moot, they were also aware at that time of their potential future usefulness in regard to Quebec and Scottish independence.

      Whether such a ploy would play on the international stage is another matter. It has yet to be tested.

      However a not completely dissimilar situation has been tested internationally since then, in the case of Kosovo, where the ICJ (UN court effectively) ruled that Kosovo’s UDI from Serbia was NOT illegal. But, cautionary note, while Kosovo has been recognised by more than half the UN member states, the UK being one of the first, it has not yet achieved the quorate required for UN membership.

      The extra selling point of the Canadian/UK ploy is that the right to constitutional matters can be transferred by prior mutual agreement.

      The status of agreement in Canada, and I am not up to date on this, is that Quebec has still refused to ratify the Supreme Court’s constitutional powers but more recently some Quebec leaders have verbally acknowledged the right of the Supreme Court to make constitutional rulings. Still not the same as accepting these rulings.

      The status of agreement in Scotland is the inclusion of the ‘reserving’ of constitutional matters by Westminster in the Scotland Bill ’97. This was voted for in the devolution referendum. I put ‘reserving’ in apostrophes because I believe that this was the first formal acknowledgement that Westminster held any sway over Scotland’s constitutional rights. However I am pretty sure 90%+ of Scots voting in the devolution referendum were completely oblivious to that fact buried in the small print.

      Personally, I think, if Scotland voted Yes and the UK said No then the UN/ICJ would rule in favour of Scotland.

      So would it be advantageous to force such a ruling by the Supreme Court now, pre BREXIT/indyref2? That is a toughie.

      Hard to gauge effect on the electorate. My guess would be the anger induced would be positive for indy but the added confusion negative.

      From the Westminster POV they would prefer to wait till post BREXIT when they could better judge how much, or little, they had to lose by doing so. e.g. whether they at that point retained full access to the EU market.

    112. Sunniva says:

      Thanks for that link, Nana. (German TV interview with Sturgeon). Very interesting. I thought it was hostile. ‘You are not here to meet Merkel. Or the vice president. Do you feel welcome in Germany? What do you hope to achieve? Isn’t there going to be another Scottish independence referendum next year?’ and Nicola left being apologetic on behalf of the nawbags who want to have their cake and eat it. I thought the interviewer was fishing for a more assertive line than the fudged caution Sturgeon gave. It’s not for the first time that European big fish dismiss Scottish dissidents as being a weak force, and useless from a European point of view.

      We are on our own.

    113. mike cassidy says:

      From today’s ‘I’ newspaper

      A record number of Scottish school pupils have been offered a university place on exam results day, with the majority choosing to continue their studies north of the border…

      The figures also showed a significant rise in the number of pupils from Scotland’s most deprived areas winning a place at university…

      There was also a significant rise in the number of students taking and passing vocational qualifications…

      Yet another SNP fuckup!

    114. Les Wilson says:

      I recall when the Chinese premier visited the UK, just a wee while ago. The disdain on the face, even a scowl at times suggested he had no pleasure in being there at all.
      Seemed as if he had no time at all for most of elites who he met in London.

      Funny enough, I would feel exactly the same.

    115. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lochside says: 9 August, 2016 at 9:08 pm:

      “Robert, we all know that you’ve been an SNP supporter since God was a boy, but it doesn’t give you any right to misinterpret what Call me Dave was suggesting.”

      First of all – who appointed you as the official spokesperson for every commenter on Wings? You don’t know if, “We all know”, anything.

      Secondly – what evidence do you offer in support of there actually being a God, not to mention that he was ever a boy?

      ” … You gave spurious examples of terrorist actions such as blowing up pylons etc. This was not the point that our fellow contributor was making.”

      As to, “Spurious examples”, what spurious examples were these? I cite as examples :-

      http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/Pages/SRSMArticlesWhiteSettlersGoHome.aspx

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Busby

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Boothby

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12087637.The_shadowy_side_of_Scottish_politics/

      ” … McTernan actually stayed silent. When was the last time an SNP politician, other than AS or NS actually got stuck in, verbally?”

      Oh! Give me strength! I could quote you reams of such examples but:-

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/jun/28/scottish-mep-given-standing-ovation-in-eu-parliament-video

      Will suffice for now.

      Simply because YOU get your news from such as the BBC and MSM and never hear or see the elected members of the SNP stand up for Scotland and their own principles only enforces what I am claiming. Which is that it is the Mainstream Scottish media that suppresses any examples of, (what was it you called it?), Oh! Aye! “The pussy footing approach to political debate.”

      I posted a few days ago about how the claims of programmes being live is balderdash. The broadcasters all have built in delays in the broadcasts they send out. You will note that they can, “beep”, out offensive language even from so called live broadcasts. The production teams monitor everything and, in effect, are editing live broadcasts.

      Note also how the BBC had Robinson claim that Salmond, “Did not answer”, only minutes after Salmond had indeed not only answered Robinson’s question but had totally rubbished him. In that case the BBC were not in control of the actual live broadcast and Salmond’s reply had gone out live. Yet, within minutes, the BBC were broadcasting their spun version that Robinson had received no answer.

      Then there was the myth begun by the Andrew Neil interview of Alex Salmond. In the actual broadcast Neil askes Salmond this question, (referring to EU Legal advice), ” … and have you sought legal advice from your own Scottish government legal officers”?

      This has become spun by all and sundry ever since as Salmond claiming he had received legal advice from the EU.

      Now how exactly can getting legal advice from your own SG parliament’s legal officers be construed as getting legal advice from the EU parliament?

      There are countless examples of elected, and supporters, of the SNP standing up for Scottish interests but it seems people like you don’t hear, see or read about them and are daft enough to do the Westminster Establishment’s propaganda work for them.

      Whether this is done deliberately or just by being brainwashed by the media is a very moot point.

      Perhaps you may know the answer far better than I do for I am not brainwashed. You will note also the same people also often refer to the UK of GB & NI as, “Britain”, and use the terms English, British, Great Britain and the country as mutually synonymous.

      In short your claims of, “The pussy footing approach to political debate”, is the spurious claim and not what I have illustrated on numerous occasions on this forum. Yet I could detail the occasions when such as you have attacked me for doing so – and then you blithely go on doing the Westminster’s propaganda for them.

      I suggest you might examine some of your own posts on this forum before I make a point of highlighting every time you do the Westminster propaganda for the UK of GB & NI for them.

    116. Dan Huil says:

      Never mind Desperately Seeking Dugdale what about Muggie May?
      Where’s she been the last few weeks? Already it’s plain she’s playing for time in matters pertaining to Scotland and brexit.

      The EU won’t let her wait too long to trigger Article 50, but she knows to trigger that too soon would give Scotland even more reason to call IndyRef2. She longs for the long grass.

      May is in a trap of her own party’s making. She can hide but she can’t stop time.

    117. mike cassidy says:

      Nana 8.27

      Thanks for the McTernan link.

      I just wish that when his failure is pointed out, that the pointer would also question why the broadcaster is even using McTernan at all.

      That would make very interesting viewing.

      Maybe next time!

    118. Les Wilson says:

      On BBCS early this morning they announced that the population of Scotland at just short of 5.4 Million it is the highest ever.
      Immigration was the main cause, mostly from other parts of the UK.

      It begs the question what will happen when we get Indy, I suspect that trend will get much bigger, as they seek to have a better life in a better country.

    119. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Scott Finlayson Im Free, well expence,s only. But the snp will make the same mistake again in these so called Media Professionals. Tommy Sheperd advocates a bottom up approach & not a top down I wonder how this will sit with his regional orginizers & committee,s.

    120. starlaw says:

      mike Cassidy 8-27

      Radio shortbreads moan in this morning was about going to University .. bad! Who would have thought.

    121. Chic McGregor says:

      Mike

      And they’re doing it deliberately.

    122. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana Smith Nice things come to those who wait, glad to see Your Gold Badge arrived. A most worthy Winger.

      To ALL Wingers who received they’re Gold Badges, you’ll wear them with pride. And as one Winger pulled me up for not wearing mine at the last outing in Freedom Square , they do notice these Wingers lol. My excuse I dont wear it at these Demos / Rallies for fear of losing it.

      Stay elert Wingers shit storm’s brewing in the long range weather forecasts.

    123. Dan Huil says:

      @Sunniva 10:25am

      “We are on our own”

      “We”? Seriously? I don’t think “we” are that stupid.

    124. Chic McGregor says:

      The problem SLAB has is that whereas the SNP Government only has one question to ask themselves for every decision, to wit:

      What is the best thing for Scotland?

      SLAB politicos have several:

      What is the best thing for SLAB?
      What is the best thing for the UKLAB?
      What is the best thing for preserving the union?
      What is the best thing for attacking the SNP?
      What is the best thing for me?
      What is the best thing for undermining Scot’s self esteem?
      What is the best thing for our MSM chums?

      All too confusing for them.

    125. mike cassidy says:

      The things I do for my country.

      How the Herald reported the educational success of Scottish pupils.

      http://archive.is/Fmbiu

      As for the Scotsman –

      I quote from their SNPbad, jock-cringing leader

      http://archive.is/MsNDw

      <b"It would also be an error to take the results alone as evidence of a more educated population beginning to emerge. Those who have attained grades which gain them places in further education have a long way to go before their contribution to society can be considered any more significant than that of previous generations."

    126. Chic McGregor says:

      Nana
      Aharr! There’s gold in them thar links. 🙂

    127. TheItalianJob says:

      There are already a few Chinese oil companies operating in our North Sea. But wait there is now oil left and what is left is worthless and there is none left.

      Article from recent Upstream International Oil & Gas Newspaper.

      Anamaria Deduleasa
      02 August 2016 13:21 GMT
      Supermajor BP has competed construction work at its West of Shetland Clair Ridge development in the UK North Sea, taking the project another step closer to first production.
      BP announced the milestone at the delayed twin-platform, located 75 kilometres west of Shetland, on Tuesday on social media.

      Final hook-up and commissioning are now expected to follow, with first oil anticipated towards the end of 2017.

      Clair Ridge, the second phase of development at Clair, was originally expected on stream this year. However, delays to construction of the DP modules pushed back production by more than a year at the Block 206/8 project.

      The development, owned by co-venture partners, BP, ConocoPhillips, Chevron and Shell, will produce an estimated 640 million barrels of oil over a 40-year period, with peak production expected to reach rates of up to 120,000 barrels per day of oil, according to BP.

      At today’s oil price of $45 (£34) that’s £4.08 million pounds a day or £1.5 billion pounds a year.

      That’s only one field and it’s due to last for 40 years.

      Not what the MSM wants to report.

    128. galamcennalath says:

      Bloomberg…

      “A cautionary tale today from Greenland, the only country that’s managed to leave the EU.

      Uffe Ellemann-Jensen, who handled the negotiations for Greenland’s exit in 1985, says there’s no way the U.K. can get the job done in the two years set out by Article 50.”

      http://archive.is/X7JW7

      This can’t end well for England. Thank heavens Scotland has another path to follow.

    129. Proud Cybernat says:

      Maggie May would love to push the A50 nuclear button today if she could for that would deny the SG time to build indy support. Maggie May knows IndyRef#2 is coming and knows she can’t stop it (regardless of the utter bluster that emanates from London) and she would rather it was sooner than later. Defeat indy twice in a few years would kick it into the long, long grass for decades. That’s what Maggie May would love to happen. But she can’t press the A50 nuclear button just yet – has to have a protracted negotiation to get as good an exit ‘deal’ as possible for the UK as she can. (Not going to happen – the Euro community don’t want other nations getting ideas).

      But the A50 button will be pressed – probably early next year. We’re in the phoney war right now for IndyRef#2. Everyone but everyone knows it. You can already observe the colonial media cranking up the propaganda stakes (big jessie flouncers notwhitstanding.

      It’s all quiet on the indy front – keeping the powder dry, so to speak. But when that A50 nuclear button is finally pressed then this country will be like nothing anyone has ever seen. IndyRef#1 will look like a wee Sunday afternoon picnic compared to what is coming. And I am talking here of what is coming from the YES side. Oh yes, BT2 won’t have seen anything like what is about to overwhelm them. And no amount of BritNat colonial media propaganda will save them.

      You heard it here first…

    130. galamcennalath says:

      @Chic McGregor

      Re Slab’s priorities. Yes. However, they do have an order of importance! That possibly makes their decisions a little easier. I would guess they rank them as …

      UKLab
      The Union
      Attacking the SNP
      Undermining Scots’ self esteem
      Me
      MSM
      SLab (they all know it doesn’t really exist)

    131. galamcennalath says:

      http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scottish-business-buzz-10-08-16/

      “Scottish Greens are behind plans drawn up under the banner of Green Yes2 to launch a second campaign for independence this autumn.

      Leaflets, posters and social media graphics are to be deployed which focus on the democratic deficit existing in the UK and the lack of stability Britain faces following the Brexit vote.”

      Aye, the metaphorical claymores are coming out of the thatch and getting polished up.

    132. JaceF says:

      @galamcennalath

      If Scotland votes for Indy in the next referendum will there be a UK to negotiate a Brexit deal? Would the rUK take successor state status to continue to negotiate Brexit and if they do what does that mean for the debt status of a newly Independent Scotland in regard to the UK debt?

    133. Foonurt says:

      Ah bit haud oan, dae yoan Chinese huv freemasonurrae? Bae cuz, thuv nae weiy ah daein onnaehin, withoot thoan toamfoolurry.

    134. mike cassidy says:

      Good afternoon, fellow subjects.

      We are being honoured by a two-day visit from the Shadow Secretary Of State For Scotland.

      http://archive.is/w95P6

      Make sure your forelock touching is up to standard!

    135. Les Wilson says:

      Indy2 will come, the blood pressure is rising. The reasons are growing bigger, our democratic deficit is increasing. It must happen and we need to be prepared.

      But hey folks, we have another very important election to go through and that is in May, the Council elections.

      We really need to concentrate on that, how we are to ensure an accurate and democratic process. The Councils count the votes, so we really need to somehow make sure they are not fiddled with.

      They have form, postal votes etc. Binning votes and more. They will be aided by the Uk agents, they will try and deny us our rights. Then there is the UKOK propaganda machine on top.

      We need a tsunami to make very sure we win everywhere we can.
      So heads together and let us ensure we do it, big time.

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 9 August, 2016 at 10:32 pm:

      Nice picture of a devastated landscape too.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-37009799

      In point of fact, Capella, the big change in the Highlands was caused by the Kingdom of England’s reactions to the 1688, “Glorious Revolution”.

      In this the English Parliament deposed the monarch who wore the crown of England but who also, independently, wore the Crown of The Kingdom of Scotland. They just assumed then, as the still do today, that the English Crown had full sovereignty over the crown of Scotland and that led to what England calls the Jacobite Rebellion. Except you cannot rebel against a monarch not your own and Scotland was still an independent kingdom in 1688.

      In Scotland, sadly, many Scots have been taught, and sadder still, also call it the Jacobite Rebellion. It was in fact a Jacobite uprising against the new English imported monarchy of King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange.

      Bear in mind that the Glorious Revolution was in 1688, the Treaty of Union was signed in 1706/7 and the Battle of Culloden was in 1745. So the Kingdom of England was still slaughtering innocent Scottish people in the Scottish Highlands 57 years after they imported a foreign monarchy and assumed they had full sovereignty over the Scottish Kingdom.

      It was also almost 40 years after the Scots signed the Treaty of Union. Yet there isn’t any evidence that the Kingdom of England, or the parliament of England, ever had legal sovereignty over the Kingdom of Scotland.

      The sovereignty of the three country Kingdom of England still legally rests with the Queen of England as the 1688 revolution made only the English Kingdom a Constitutional Monarchy but Scotland was then still independent.

      The Battle of Culloden was only part of the English attempts to suppress, the mainly, Highland’s of Scotland.

      Note the suppression of both Scottish languages in our schools that continued with physical punishment well into the late 1990s. Note the banning of tartan & Highland dress, the banning of the bag pipes, (except in the Highland regiments that were instigated to suppress the Highlanders).

      Then came the replacement of many Highland Clan Chieftains by English and Anglicised Lowland Lairds. Followed by the replacement of people throughout Scotland, not just in the Highlands, by sheep.

      The sheep it was that grazed the Highlands and Southern Uplands into the artificial wastelands we have today. Sheep were just the beginning for the Royal Navy still used wooden ships and the remnants of the Great Caledonian Forest were felled to build ships. Also the Industrial Revolution needed charcoal for iron smelters so more Scottish forests were felled. Then, of course, the deer population also added to the work of the sheep and today the, ever increasing, deer population is indeed a growing threat to the repopulation of the Scottish Highlands and Southern Uplands.

      The burning of Grouse Moors only maintains the wasteland created by the English suppression of Scotland. There is not an inch of Scotland’s landscapes that is not man made.

      Scotland’s original natural habitat was The Great Caledonian Forest and the Highlands and Southern Uplands were proportionately far more densely populated than they are today.

      If you doubt that then just take a hike up almost any Highland glen. There you will note two things. The stone remnants of human homes and, among the heather & Bracken, large patches of stinging nettles.

      Those nettles mark the sites of the many years of waste products from humans and domestic animals. Mainly from dry toilets and animal bedding. Nettles indicate patches of rich soil nutrients among the poor quality heather & bracken supporting soils.

    137. Chic McGregor says:

      galamcennalath

      Thanks for correcting a particularly bad apostrophe usage.

      Your priority order is probably about right as well.

    138. Nana says:

      @Mike Cassidy ach Mike that’s too much to be asking for, it’s a wonder he wasn’t hit by lightening for mentioning the unmentionable word ‘Scotland’

      @Ronnie Anderson I’m feart to pin it on in case I’m mugged by all the jealous folk around and about. I noticed a definite gleam in the old man’s eye and my friend has mentioned it too many times for my liking. Got to keep an eye on these people hahaha

      @Chic says There’s gold in them thar links.
      Lol very good.

    139. X_Sticks says:

      galamcennalath says:

      “Scottish Greens are behind plans drawn up under the banner of Green Yes2 to launch a second campaign for independence this autumn.”

      Don’t forget Scottish CND are already supporting indy as well

    140. Proud Cybernat says:

      Scotland’s alleged £15 billion black hole? People need some proper perspective…

      http://imgur.com/a/3gcwf

    141. Chic McGregor says:

      Robert
      “Scotland’s original natural habitat was The Great Caledonian Forest and the Highlands and Southern Uplands were proportionately far more densely populated than they are today.”

      Like many I suspect, I was already aware of this to an extent. However, last year, working on a seemingly unrelated project the magnitude of just how anomalous the depopulation of Scotland’s Highlands is, was brought home to me from a rather surprising source.

      The project was in regard to on shore wind power generation and comparison between countries.

      For such a study, topography is a rather important consideration.

      In the case of Germany, it was noted that, like the UK, there is a clear topological difference between North and South, but in Germany’s case the highland region is in the South. The following maps show this and the line I chose to delineate the analysis. The RH map shows wind farm deployment and may be ignored for present purposes. South of the line, the German topography is very similar to the Highlands of Scotland, (with even higher mountains in the far South), North of the line, the topography is mostly Lowlands, like the Scottish Lowlands or most of England.

      http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/German%20On%20Shore%20Wind%20NvS.jpg

      The Northern area was just under 74 thousand sq. miles with a population of just over 45 million. The Southern area was just over 64 thousand sq. miles with a population of 35.6 million.

      The population density of the German highlands is only marginally less than that in the German Lowlands. Compare and contrast to the Scottish Highlands v Lowlands.

      Now, I am well aware that a knee jerk Yoon response would be to point out that the German highlands are a good bit further South than the Scottish Highlands, however a cursory glance at meteorological data will inform you that due to the Continental Climate conditions which pertain there, as opposed to the Maritime conditions in Scotland, the Winter is generally much harsher in the German highlands.

    142. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 10 August, 2016 at 1:40 am:

      ” … If Scotland was a popular republic following the Declaration of Arbroath, then why isn’t that issue of Scotland’s sovereignty at the front of our campaign?”

      Scotland was not a republic after the Declaration of Arbroath. Scotland remained a monarchy, (as did England after the 1688 Glorious Revolution). Scotland remained a Monarchy and the status of the Monarch did not change.

      The declaration was made that all Scottish monarchs were not sovereign. i.e. they were not appointed by God. The declaration declared that the people of Scotland were sovereign, that is they were appointed by God. In other words we Scots are legally God’s chosen people. I kid you not.

      The people then approve, (not actually appoint), the hereditary monarchy but with the proviso that the sovereign people have the legal, and God Given, right to drive out a monarchy who does NOT do their job properly. The replacement should be from the royal line who are, (supposedly), appointed by God. The Monarch’s status is thus, “Protector of the sovereign people’s sovereignty”.

      In England, in 1688, their law stated that, “Simply by being sovereign a sovereign cannot renounce sovereignty”. They can, however, legally abdicate their sovereignty to the next in line royal heir.

      This was why the Glorious Revolution saw the English law sidestep becoming a republic and became a Constitutional Monarchy. In other words their law would not allow them to go against God’s will so they made the invited foreign monarchy, “God Given”, powers to the Parliament of England.

      ” … If you appear on it, you give it legitimacy.”

      The problem there is that Westminster controls the licensing of both the media outlets and the licencing of the reception of broadcast transmissions.

      That means although you can listen, (licence free), to radio broadcasts you still need a licence to broadcast it.

      ” … My third concern is the deferrence to our superiors which is not compatible with the previous two paragraphs.”

      And there you put your finger on the real problem.

      ” … Through Holyrood, we are using an instrument of Westminster to exercise the limited powers which Westminster allows us to use.”

      I’ve het on that one on countless occasions and often here on WoS.

      The truth is one thing and getting the truth accepted by a big enough majority of the Scottish voters is quite another thing and it all depends upon the views held by the Scottish general public.

      Here is a cut & paste of the endings of the two Kingdom’s parliaments :-


      The Scottish parliament gathered for the last time on 25 Mar. 1707 and was formally closed by the Queen’s lord high commissioner, the duke of Queensberry. At Westminster the current session ended on 24 April when Parliament was prorogued until 30 Apr. On that day, a small number of peers gathered in the Upper House (to which the handful of MPs attending in the Commons was also summoned), to hear a proclamation read declaring that the new Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain had now replaced the separate English and Scottish parliaments. A further proclamation of 5 June declared that it would assemble at Westminster on 23 Oct.

      Now here’s the truth :-

      Note that the above quote states :-
      The Scottish parliament gathered for the last time on 25 Mar. 1707 and was formally closed by the Queen’s lord high commissioner, the duke of Queensberry.

      The old Scottish parliament was proclaimed as ended but the members never sat and legally ended the old parliament – it was thus Prorogued, (in recession), and not actually legally dissolved. In fact Town Criers proclaimed the parliament prorogued around the streets of Edinburgh’s Old Town. When Winnie Ewing opened the new Holyrood Parliament she declared the Old Parliament of Scotland reconvened.

      This has never been opposed by anyone including Elizabeth II.

      Here’s the truth. While the then Parliament of England sat and This is just like Scotland’s revenue. We send our sovereignty south and rejoice at the powers delegated back to us in exactly the same way are our revenue heads south and pocket money is returned to us. It rather seems to me we are engaged in a struggle which is by and large a mere construct of our imagination. Can’t we call a summit; a National forum where our law lords, our politicians, our historians, and have our constitutional experts cut through all the bunkum and define in no uncertain terms what our constitutional situation actually is by legal definition, before we proceed any further in seeking to redefine the constitutional fudge we are living under? Why do we need Westminster to give us that which is already ours?
      If the Law is on the side of an Independent Scotland, and it seems to me it is, then why do we ignore it? Every law and article agreed after that legal watershed is not competent legisation. Our Unionist brethren might not like it, but whatever followed, for better or worse, it would at least have confirmed legal legitimacy which our current constitutional arrangements merely, and erroneously, assume

    143. Jack Murphy says:

      mike cassidy said at 11:10 am:-

      “The things I do for my country.

      How the Herald reported the educational success of Scottish pupils.

      http://archive.is/Fmbiu

      As for the Scotsman –

      I quote from their SNPbad, jock-cringing leader

      http://archive.is/MsNDw

      These Scottish rags are paying a heavy price for aligning themselves with the North Britain Labour and Tory Parties.

    144. Lochside says:

      Hello Robert Peffers just read your long and offensive diatribe against my chiding of you re. a previous contributor’s point on weak public performances by the SNP.

      All l can say is that the content of your response was as misconstrued, wrong headed and arrogant as usual. If you’re going to pontificate in your usual ungraceful manner Robert, learn to get a thicker skin.

      I haven’t as a custom got into pointless arguments with self appointed self read pultroons asserting shite. So I intend to continue ignoring such types as yourself. Have a nice day.

    145. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “Scotland was not a republic after the Declaration of Arbroath.

      Thanks Robert, I couldn’t be bothered refuting the error the other poster made.

    146. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Dr Jim
      For fucks sake don’t fall off the roof. We need your vote.
      I have a large SNP sign in my window with a yes sticker. English in comers ether side of me. Notice quite a few visitors looking up at the window. The sign can be seen from the train going from Kyle to Inverness.

    147. Breeks says:

      You are correct that Scotland was not a Republic after the Declaration of Arbroath, I used a poor turn of phrase, but what I meant was that the Declaration of Arbroath enshrined sovereignty upon the people. Supreme power lying with the people under an appointed figurehead or monarch is one definition of what a republic is. I don’t think that a formal republic was ever the intention when the Declaration was made, but that is the reason why the Declaration of Arbroath is often quoted as the essence of modern Republics. 14th Century Scotland had embraced republican principles before there was ever a republican concept.

      My other point, equally badly made, was that no matter how the population percieves our sovereign status, we are ignoring laws which clearly define and articulate that sovereign status. As I understand it, a law does not cease to exist just because people choose to ignore it. When the law stipulates one thing, but the population chooses a divergent path, then sooner or later, for the sake of legitimacy, the population must come back to the legal principle, because they act outside the law until they do.

      In essence, both Westminster and Holyrood could be declared to exist in defiance of, or outside of Scots law, and by definition, “outlaw” parliaments.

      The point I am trying to make is that this issue is not open for debate, nor can it altered by democratic expression. Either we are sovereign people and Westminster routinely exceeds it authority to govern us, or the Scots law, and Declaration of Arbroath was repealed. That is the awkward truth of the matter, it is one state which exists and not the other, and it isn’t a choice.

      To look at it another way, suppose Scotland votes in favour of Independence next referendum, we will have a truly sovereign Scottish Parliament, but will it respect the popular sovereignty of the Scottish people? Or will it consider itself to be sovereign over us in similar fashion to current day Westminster? It must be the former, surely, because the latter is unthinkable. But the awkward reality of that situation will require the Scottish parliament to recognise its inferiority to our popular sovereignty, but then, that very act of recognition should already exist. But it doesn’t. Our Holyrood parliament swears fealty to the Queen, and it really ought not to. A true Scottish parliament can only swear fealty to the people of Scotland.

      Do you see? At some point our Scottish parliament MUST start to respect and reconnect with the principles of Scots Law, and that begs the rather awkward question of why it isn’t aleady doing so.

    148. Grouse Beater says:

      Breeks: “At some point our Scottish parliament MUST start to respect and reconnect with the principles of Scots Law, and that begs the rather awkward question of why it isn’t aleady doing so.”

      There you go again – a lot of waffle ending in another unproven negative.

    149. Breeks says:

      It isn’t waffle.

      The Declaration of Arbroath and 1689 Claim of Right are articles of Scottish law which enshrine sovereignty with the people of Scotland, and makes us distinct from the English, who maintain sovereignty comes from god, and leaves its population as subjects, as in subject to that sovereignty. If we observe the principles of Scots law, we are not, and cannot be subjects to that top down sovereignty, because it is incompatible with our bottom up popular sovereignty. That isn’t waffle, it is irrefutable fact. You cannot have two sources for the same unique commodity.

      Holyrood was set up by Westminter, draws its authority from Westminster, and swears an oath of fealty to Westminster and the sovereign queen of England. By recognising a superior, it acts as a subjugated parliament. It respects itself as “Her Majesty’s Government”, and it bends to the will of Westminster, and endorses those aspects of Scottish government which are deemed to be reserved matters. It dresses up as a parliament, but in essence, Holyrood is a super committee which exists in its entirety beneath Westminsters unbrella.

      This situation is not compatible with Scottish constitutional law. We Scots are sovereign citizens living in a society which treats us as subjects to some other and greater sovereignty. We cannot be both sovereign citizens and subjects simultaneously.

      You claim that’s unproven Grouse Beater, but the proof is right there in the Declaration of Arbroath, the 1689 Claim of Right, and that proof is brought right up to modern date as recognised by the UK’s Supreme Court in 2011. Scottish sovereignty rests with the people, but our Holyrood legislature, and indeed our wider Scottish society, (including resident Grouse Beaters), by accident, design, familiarity or expediency, seems only to respect the top down sovereignty of Westminster, and views our popular Scottish sovereignty with disdain and illegitimacy.

      Take a different perspective. Is it any wonder that Westminster sees Scottish Independence as seditious rebellion when the UK Parliament is built upon the English version of sovereignty, which comes from God, through the sacred Monarch, into the hands of parliament, and through its laws, the population is subjugated. It has no platfrom from where to stand and recognise Scotland’s popular sovereignty. A functional Westminster parliament REQUIRES the Kingdoms of Scotland and England to have been extinguished by the Act of Union, because the issue of Scotlands popular sovereignty is not in any way compatible with the English / UK Parliamentary model. Quite literally, they ignore Scotlands sovereignty hoping it will go away.

      Westminster, the UK parliament, is a fudge, and for 300 years that fudge has only worked by drawing the teeth and claws from Scotlands sovereign people. Well I want my sovereignty recognised, so as far as I’m concerned the fudge has to go. What confuses me is why we throw ourselves upon democracy to bring this change about. Democracy has no more power to alter the circumstances we find ourselves in than Westminsters subjugation. Our sovereign birthright trumps our democratic will to abdicate our own sovereignty in just the same way it confounds Westminsters right to govern us.

    150. Grouse Beater says:

      That historical data isn’t what I was referring to. I refer to your ability to begin with a false premise and then wander off somewhere and come back again without anything being said, as if you’re trying to prove things to yourself, and not to readers.

      That post you’ve written is a perfect example.

    151. Breeks says:

      You’ll have to explain what you mean by false premise, and my various wanderings because I just don’t know what you’re referring to.

      Then again don’t trouble yourself. I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be anything constructive anyway.

    152. Andrew McLean says:

      It’s Déjà vu all over again!

    153. Grouse Beater says:

      Breeks: “I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be anything constructive anyway.”

      The muddled assertions are yours to justify. What does this mean?:

      Democracy has no more power to alter the circumstances we find ourselves in than Westminsters subjugation.”

      And this jumbled final statement?:

      Our sovereign birthright trumps our democratic will to abdicate our own sovereignty in just the same way it confounds Westminsters right to govern us.

      There’s something struggling to get out of that literary morass but I’m damned if I know what it is. You’re trying to say something without actually saying it.

    154. Breeks says:

      So rather than criticise, why don’t you do something constructive and clarify the issue for me?

      Post independence, will Scotland’s population enjoy the popular sovereignty it secured in the 14th century, or will our sovereignty be replaced the top down sovereignty which Westminster is built upon, periodically ratified by a democratic majority?

      Is that simple enough for all you SNP supporters to understand?

      Question 2. If our 700 year old popular sovereignty is going to be rekindled as the basis of our constitution, then why isn’t the absolute nature of that perpetual sovereignty being recognised right now, or, if the absolute sovereignty of the Scottish people is not to be rekindled but replaced by some autocratic sovereignty secured by ephemeral democratic majority, then what supreme authority is being invoked to complete the job which Westminster could never quite manage and disenfranchize us Scots from our 700 year old popular sovereignty?

      If that’s still too complicated, I’ll break it down for you.

      Post independence, where will Scotland’s sovereign authority be coming from?

    155. Grouse Beater says:

      Breeks “So rather than criticise, why don’t you do something constructive and clarify the issue for me?”

      I’ve no intention of spending time trying to interpret the gobbledygook in you’re last post.

      I suggest you lay down a question at the start of your (convoluted) diatribes, such as, “Is the government doing enough to achieve so-and-so?” rather than beginning with a condemnation and then a torrent of words trying to sound knowledgeable.

    156. Breeks says:

      What a surprise. No answer, just patronising ridicule. How typically SNP.

      It is that very thick headed inability to grasp the importance of the issue which has allowed Westminster’s fudged sovereignty to stand dominant over Scotland’s legally correct sovereignty for over 300 years.

      You are a Unionist, Grouse Beater, you just don’t know it. And I mean that literally, word for word, not as a metaphor or as an insult. The Union requires people like you. It doesn’t matter if you support the Union or oppose it, what matters is you respect Westminster’s bogus right to govern, and it is that little nugget of inpalateable truth which allows Westminster to function.

      I ask you again. Post Independence, from where will an independent Scotland draw its sovereign authority?

      Once the penny has dropped which allows you to answer that question, you will understand exactly where I am coming from.

      The “fight” we are taking to Westminster is mere sport to them I promise you, because the very notion of using Westminster’s instruments of government to do anything is tacit affirmation that we have yet to realise where Scotland’s sovereignty exists and what it empowers us to do. For 300 years have swallowed unionism hook, line and sinker, and we are still doing it.

    157. Grouse Beater says:

      Breeks: “How typically SNP.”

      There you go – my suspicions confirmed.

      Took a while to tease it out of all that guff.

    158. Breeks says:

      Quick! Away and fetch Fred to agree with you.



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