Caught between
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September 27, 2014 by
Chris Cairns
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27 09 14 10:40
Caught between | FreeScotland
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Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary. (More)
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Wings Over ScotlandA tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
BRILLIANT
Sums up Labour’s problems perfectly.
Cumon then Ed whats it to be?
make up your mind man!
That rock should become the centre-piece of Rory’s cairn at Gretna.
The Daily Record’s Ultra-Unionist political editor, David Clegg, couldn’t hide his hatred for the Scottish Government when he wrote this piece in his daily comic.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/memo-nicola-sturgeon-daily-record-4325948
Notice how refers to the Deputy First Minister as “Sturgeon”.
You can just imagine him foaming at the mouth as he wrote the bile.
He also seems to forget to mention how bad Scottish Labour were in Scotland when they were in power.
The Daily Record is part of the Political Holy Trinity in Scotland, they are,
BBC Scotland, Scottish Labour and the Daily Record.
We have the power to bring down the three of them.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/vow2a.jpg
In just over 4 weeks, its going to get a lot harder.
Weegie to ED Are you man or mouse?
Ed pass the cheese please
Topper Chris, should have gave him a blue tie though 🙂
There’s also a lot more very hacked off former labour voters watch him now. The whole ConDem Lab Naw thanks devo max fraud is just not on.
Yep.Labour.I don’t think it does us any good to talk about destroying a Labour Party a lot of people still have strong emotional ties to.Lets just work away at doing what’s best for Scotland.The Labour Party will destroy itself.We know the Labour Party which people love died years ago.Labour voters are coming to that realisation for themselves.
Munguins Republic has a great DR front cover with the VOW “I shall never vote for any of these three parties again”
http://munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/
@caz-m I’m not going to click on that link to the vile DR above. If you put up an archive version I might.
Yup, brilliant. The Unioinists have got themselves into a big problem of their own making. They might yet find it was simpler to just let the vote go ahead without their panicked purdah-breaking last minute Vow of DevoMax / Home Rule!
Who’s all going out today? Glasgow? Edinburgh? etc…
Re Labour Party. Up here in the far north of North Britain, Labour councillors went into coalition with the Tories and Lib Dems to prevent the SNP, which was the biggest party in the elections, from taking control of the councils. That’s in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire and other areas as well. There is every reason to attack the Labour Party as betraying the interests of working people and Scotland.
@mealer You may be right that people will see their betrayal for themselves but I doubt the MSM will inform them.
If it wasn’t for the MSM propagating lies and deception there should have been an 80% vote for Independence. How do you suppose a sleazo such as Berlusconi won elections in Italy for years? Because he owned the media. Only his prison sentence stopped him winning again.
I am now started to wonder if YesScotland were too quick to accept defeat on the 19th. It was an unconditional acceptance of the result. Perhaps it should have been acceptance with the caveat that the Nae Sayers actually deliver on the promises they made at the last minute. The Unionists breached the Edinburgh Agreement when they broke purdah. The obligation to accept the result outright was removed IMHO.
lets try to put the bbc in a hard place aswell
sign this petition for an investigation
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum
Croomepenstein…blue tie naw..blue rope… another aye
Clegg at the DR is an ass, no a mule actually. If he did any research he would know that the funding for the A9 improvements was sidetracked by Tory and Labour council in Edinburgh for their Tramlink white elephant.
Once again Chris, right on the money.
When you look at the voting demographics of the referendum, two main reasons for labour dominance become clear. First traditional labour voters still believe they are a social Democratic Party ( lie ). Second is that the comfortable / middle class have long known the reality that they are a centre right party. Many traditional lab. Voters now know their Big Lie and our task to get them to vote SNP ( true social democrats ), in the General Election. 🙂
Chris I love the way you cartoonists skin cats without them noticing. If the rest of us tried it there would be fur and guts everywhere 😉
I’m all for English votes for English laws, they might get to realise that its their Westminster that is the problem and not our feeble 50
Does anyone know what is happening in George Square, Glasgow today???
I heard Tommy Sheridan is to make an appearance either in Glasgow or Edinburgh on Saturday or Sunday.
It’s all a bit confusing, can anyone nail this weekends events please in a couple of sentences.
As I have mentioned in another post, we need a bit of clear leadership from someone the top.
Whether it is about rallies or the YES logo, we are needing clarification from someone.
@Capella
I will try to archive the Daily Record rant for you.
Ur youse sayin’ we’se ur aw wee fat basturts and effin’ neds?
Look at from the project plan of DR and everyone at Pacific Quay. They won the referendum, they got rid of Salmond so next stage, bury devo nano, get Lamont and Labour back in. So what are they going to offer Labour in Scotland as a bribe? Better housing, scrap pensioner free bus travel, free prescriptions, council tax hike on middle class Scotland that lives in a different universe compared to working class Scotland.
Surest way of stopping Scottish democracy for good is the BBC etc getting Joahan Lamont or whoever succeeds the virus spotter, back in total control of their Scotland region.
Lets not push them for the VOW’s leave them alone they will tighten the noose around their necks by infighting,
Keep singing the song Barrhead Travel NO MORE, MACKIES Crisps No More , BBC NO MORE,
@ Caz-m and others
I agree with you and the comment. 🙂
But posting the open link to the Record only gives them money everytime someone clicks on it.
Instead copy the link:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/memo-nicola-sturgeon-daily-record-4325948
onto http://archive.today/
and then you get:
https://archive.today/M8OW6
Everyone can then click on it and read it. It’s spread far and wide BUT the Record gets not one single penny from it.
We expose their crap and keep the money.. 🙂
So scoping around the usual teamGB rules for ever Media/coverage it’s devo max in name only but say absolutely nothing about what any of it means and stick with there’s been a murder and a cat stuck up a tree in Aboyne. Makes sense.
Far right Aberdeen Press and journal liggers have Willie Rennie fear mongering that any more devo will be SNP’s “back door independence” which sounds a bit painful, even from him.
https://archive.today/TeccG
Archive link for that DR article
Brilliant, an honourable mention for Dundee too, would have been nice.
Caz m
I commented on another thread a few days ago that I thought it might be an idea to have a page on Wings wi list of us coming demos/events so we don’t have to chase info.
Don’t know how viable an option this is given it might take a bit of organising.
Spot on. Chris Cairns: the cartoons that paint a thousand posts.
The devo for England may also be a con. Have you ever met anyone in England other than UKIPsters that want “another layer of government” because I haven’t. I was in England in the last week run up and there was real anger at 3 things, Scotland actually becoming an independent country, the English economy losing out and the whole notion of devo to English regions.
They really do not like their politicians and or but this anger was rather unrestrained at times as they all think that Westminster is the UK gov and the UK is England. So they are untroubled by the farcical house of a Lords, they love royalty and England is booming economically in many areas. So what if Scotland’s a scrounger region. So are some other parts of England, like Wales.
UKIP may gain some ground using racism and anger at immigration but it’s probably only because the BBC and co think they can use them. England has no real further interest in Scotland. They won so it’s over but if you still want a reaction, ask them the how and why they have a booming English economy based on colossal supply side debt, and then we come back to Scotland and not Scots oil. Working class Scotland had a chance to rebuild Scotland’s economy and they blew it.
Well broke a habit of a lifetime and joined the SNP this morning. Daughter is going to join the Greens so we have both bases covered. 🙂
Labour may have helped swing the No vote for the Conservatives but they have done themselves no favours here in Scotland.
Thanks for posting the links. I see from the front page highlights Balaargh that the DR has several attack pieces on the SNP. “Labour legend” John Reid, jack McConnell accuses SNP of telling a “big huge lie” over NHS etc.
@Midgehunter’s link is to the actual article, a shopping list of attack points for the SNP hating DR reader. https://archive.today/M8OW6
This is why we need to keep u the task of getting information out there.
I’ve been in the process of detoxing from the BBCand MSM. Removed all quick links to BBC on bookmark bar and rplaced with Aljazeera. Will look for more news outlets (notSKY!) later. Weather now from the Met Office. added Democracy now link for videos etc.
Catalonia has now set a rferendum date of Nov 9th. Let’s support them.
http://tinyurl.com/ph6rqwl
@caz-m
Sunday 12.00 Tommy Sheridan ,Martin Compston and the Indy Girls at George Sqare
@Graeme Doig
We need some definite information posted somewhere Graeme.
Do YOU know what is happening in Glasgow today. Hopefully see you at one of the rallies.
Rory’s rock/cairn is also “Scotland will get devo max. No if’s or no but’s” which he admitted on QT this week 🙂
Roll that video tape.
Scot goes Pop has voting intention figures to play with. Feed them into the Electoral Calculus
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/
Caz m
I don’t have any info re this weekend as not able to get to anything. Having to make up some family time after long campaign.
I’ll be going to as much as I can in the coming weeks and months as we certainly need to keep everyone on their toes and keep this movement going.
Sorry can’t help re this weekend but look forward to seeing you soon bud.
Guys the SNP membership has increased dramatically supposing we do manage to get 30-40 Snp MPs in Westminster what could we achieve? I have heard about the possibility of declaring UDI but nicola has more or less ruled that out. (Can’t see it as a viable course of action anyway) SO what would be the consequences of having this SNP representation in Westminster?
Jeez. Jimmy Sommerville has let himself go a bit!
I posted this on the previous thread but maybe you missed it – @Faltdubh -yes I did, I only watched it on iplayer cos someone mentioned how good Lesley Riddoch was.
Rory said Scotland will get tax raising powers and welfare powers devolved – Lesley said that’s devo nano.
I hope Rory is allowed no where near the discussions. I believe that we would have a case for declaring the ref null and void if we don’t get full fiscal autonomy cos Broon offered Home rule and federalism.
It would be useful if we could get the exact % that changed from Yes to No after the vow.
Also Tommy Sheriden’s event in George Sq is on the 12th October
There is a Don’t Buy the Daily Record FB page. What is really required is a hi-vis alternative to this rag with part of its mission statement geared at exposing and debunking every negative, bigoted, and non-researched article and headline. The best medicine for Clegg and Crichton would be continuous and very public humiliation. They are liars, they are deeply anti-Scottish, and they are unbridled hypocrites when ascribing themselves as Scotland’s Champions of Scotland’s working people. I cannot countenance that collectively we will allow them to continue to produce this garbage without public reproach over the long term…
@Fortbill – the point of having a large presence in WM is that the SNP will be able to sit on or ?control, the Scottish committees.
Also as seems likely there will be a coalition – there will be deals to be made.
We have to play the WM game to get as many concessions on ‘devo max’ as possible
Thanks Betty
“Sunday 12.00 Tommy Sheridan ,Martin Compston and the Indy Girls at George Square.”
A great cartoon, trouble is a brewing for “Red” Ed, now the flame thrower is on him as I cheerfully predicted whether we won or lost. Nigel is on the Tele all day today, all day on Parliamentary Television, beloved of the BBC methinks.
I have not been watching the news and as I do not read newspapers have been a bit out of the loop, but noticed that people like the DR and the DM judging by their headlines seen as I walked past the news stand, that they had now turned their attention to trying to destroy the SNP. I think they think they are invulnerable.
As for the disrespect shown to the SNP Government, I will be showing the same respect now for anyone from the now opposition who we have the misfortune to see occupy the office.
Mealer, those people who are still in Labour are not worth worrying about, these are those who would swallow any crap for the party. To gain respect you must show it, they have shown none.
Morning All,
all in know about today’s events are as follows:
There is a food bank imitative at George sq today, to thank the good people of Glasgow for leaving bags of food for the needy last week.there will also be music and food maybe some dancing but no Thugs..
Hope that helps.
Dr JM Mackintosh
“Sums up Labour’s problems perfectly.”
Agree, but to be fair if the rock and the hardman had been left out it would scarcely have diminished the appropriateness of that statement.
@ HandandShrimp, isnt it staggering the number of people joining SNP? Its like selling ipads now. This week I signed on to pensioners for a fiver each and two guys at work at £12 and none have ever considered this before.
There’s a real deep seated thing going on now, its hard to explain without diagrams but BBC etc have a massive task ahead getting Labour back in power in Scotland. Locally, far right Press and Journal pretending its not happening.
Another great cartoon.
Edinburgh today the fight continues.
Another great cartoon.
Edinburgh today the fight continues.
@Fortbill
What has Labour done for Scotland in Westminster?
@Fortbill
What has Labour done for Scotland in Westminster?
I personally dont think that “no” propoganda nor, for that matter, “yes” arguments made much difference to the 55%.
I think most of these Scots were always going to vote no.
I could never fathom how so many of our nation adopt a default position of being for the union, when most clear thinkers know we are being taken for complete mugs.
In that respect, Scotland must be unique amongst nations in being the only nation which has turned down the chance of winning a multi billion pound lottery!
A strange nation indeed…
Come on there is an Election to fight. Get every Unionist politician out in Scotland. Get every troughing, warmongering, wasting public money one, called out. Go to it. Flood Fife and Orkney/Shetland with WBB. Print more. Easily done. Get active. Now. Your country needs you more than ever.
Stuck between a rock and a jock 😉
o/t
Remembered this comments from Sept 13th. Think they quickly deleted it from their twitter account.
13 September, 2014 at 3:05 pm
“Kevin O’Donnell @kevwodonnell · 1m
Postal vote exit poll:
No – 60%
Yes – 40%
#indyref
To those who say I’m making it up I welcome your complacency because I just seen it. No! “
Whenever you feel the energy to fight for the ideal waning just take a look Michael Heseltine’s crummy car website, the ‘political’ forum.
EDL, BNP and airhead hatred English for Scot in full spate.
The scum of the toilet bowl all in one place, and that’s just the moderators who sit back and enjoy the spectacle.
o/t , from 13 September, 2014 at 3:05 pm
“Kevin O’Donnell @kevwodonnell · 1m
Postal vote exit poll:
No – 60%
Yes – 40%
#indyref
To those who say I’m making it up I welcome your complacency because I just seen it. No! “
@nigel says:
I personally dont think that “no” propoganda nor, for that matter, “yes” arguments made much difference to the 55%.
I think most of these Scots were always going to vote no.
No only 70% of those are hardNo’s which leaves 15% open to persuasion or 1 in 11 no voters if my maths is correct.
60% of the electorate who voted were going to vote YES.
The illegal ‘VOW’ changed 25% of NO votes to NO.
Get troughing, warmongering, tax evading Brown out, along with the rest of the liars. They can do Scotland no more harm. Sanctioning people and having them walking to food banks and misusing £Billions of Scottish revenues.
Remember those in Trade Unions -ask what proportion of your sub goes to the British Labour party. Unite are having difficulty according to Herald, of their members challenging them on their sub, another great way to raise awareness.
Radar……was it not 70 30 no in the actual ref?
Think they were spinning and people fell for it
@nigel
“I think most of these Scots were always going to vote no.”
Disagree. Ashcroft’s post ref research showed that 25% of NO voters believed the promises of more powers after a NO vote. That’s 500,000 people duped by Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, George Galloway and the BBC. Others, pensioners in particular, reliant on the BBC and MSM for information, were frightened into believing their pensions would be stopped if they voted YES. So that leaves a small core of Unionists – perhaps 30%.
Capella says:
27 September, 2014 at 10:28 am
“Munguins Republic has a great DR front cover with the VOW “I shall never vote for any of these three parties again”
http://munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/
What a brilliant blog.
I hadn’t seen it before Capella posted the link. Cheers Capella.
Stuck between a rock and a jock
To use current English colloqual:
A cock stuck between a rock and a Jock.
‘The Betrayers’ – BBC Scotland Drama Series – grousebeater,wordpress
slightly O/T but can someone name and shame those Labour MPs who went to Cyprus for a stag weekend rather than attend their day job at Westminster to decide whether or not Great Britain goes to war.
Capella, thanks for the link to the Daily Retard, just love the way they talk about upgrading the A9, no mention of the fact that ALL the unionists prevented that by diverting money to the Edinburgh Tram way back in 2007. We also see nothing about the fact that the A9 was needing upgraded during the terms of Donald Dewar, Henry McLeish and Joke McConnell. We should remember they were too busy making themselves “popular” with Westminster and sending money back which was desperately needed to be spent in Scotland. Having had Thursday driving up and down that road, it is a top priority, but how can you spend it when there are people who desperately need help.
As for the NHS, looking at what they, the Labour Party were up to prior to 2010 with NHS England, I would not trust them for a moment with ours. Alistair Darling has big investments in Private Medicine and he will be looking forward to seeing them pay out as will many of his and his Government Masters. God we do breed a certain type in Scotland, seem to have always done so.
I wonder how the 55% like being able to say they were either so concerned with their pockets or if they think it is nice to be run by a government who use terror on what they describe as their own people. Parliamentary dictatorship is what we have here.
@Liz thanks forthat it seems that the party politics in Westminster and numerical make up of the parties at this stage is anyone’s guess. With the upsurge of support for UKIP I suppose anything can happen I presume most of the Ukip votes would come from disenfranchised Torys, and that confuses the picture further. It seems to me a tory/Ukip coalition is highly possible.that being the case and if Scots Mps can’t vote on English issues I suppose 40 Amp voices would be very powerful.
@nigel
The ashcroft survey showed that only 27% of the 55% voted No due to a strong attachment to the UK.
The rest were because of risks or the promises of extra powers.
With the final week media blitz..with all the banks and shop scare stories.. a large number of people basically shat it.
The YES campaign didn’t seem to have any big stories left in the last week.
I was expecting the SNP to come out with something. Maybe a promise to start a national energy company, which would have been a vote winner.
But all we got was Salmond accusing the government of leaking the RBS story, which was true, but not really the issue.
The BBC bias protest was just spun as angry street mobs, to add to the egging ‘scandal’
Andy and Jamie Murray came out for Yes, but too late to make the papers.
Something major should gave been held in reserve.
Nigel
Its just completely untrue that the majority would vote No regardless of media propaganda and extra powers etc.
Even many hardened No voters would change their tune when they find out that Scotland subsidises rather than is subsidied. The other factor of course is herd mentality. Lots of people only go along with popular and accepted concencus.
If the media had been fair and impatrtial from the start. Highlighted how unfairly Scotland is treated in this political union then it is just unfathomable to assume that the majority would still vote No.
Unfortunaely social conditioning has taken its toll because of years of media manipulation. If once the referendum had been agreed and the media became impartial then you would be looking at 80% plus. Only hardcore britnats and some of the very wealthy would be voting NO.
Why d we know this. well becaus eour arguments are so much stronger and everything they come up with is halftruth, misquote or downright lie. They cannot win by facts.
The Yes vvote went fro m 25 to 45% despite 99% of the media against us. Why because we had much better arguments.
Capella – I use yr.no for weather. It’s excellent.
We all know that the Postal Voting is wide open to fraud. All you stats people should be looking at the rise in the PV in the constituency & council levels. I always thought that in Elections of any kind in this country, it was One Man One Vote.
Just saying like.
I’m sure I know that guy next to the Tory politician.
Someone posted this: http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06987.pdf “Scotland: Devolution Proposals” by the Parliament and Constitution Centre. In it there is this:
“Alistair Darling, Chair of Better gether, clarified that:
no new powers would be put on the table beyond those already announced by the three main Westminster parties earlier this year”
Alistair Darling is not an official spokesperson for the Labour party, let alone the Conservative or Liberal Democrats. He can therefore not “clarify” anything to do with the VOW.
Also news in England, huge next stage austerity UK cuts coming. Only rabid NO IFS here
“George Osborne’s plans to balance the government’s books will require additional tax increases, spending cuts or welfare cuts worth more than £37bn in the first three years of the next parliament, according to Britain’s leading experts on the public finances.”
If you voted NO and get sacked in teamGB soon, boohoo. Tide turned last week and you missed it.
Ian Wood’s still worth one and half billion, these guys have paid jobs for life bringing this fraudsters Naw Thanks stuff to make the Queen purr…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29189320
13 September 2014 Last updated at 11:25 BST
Deutsche Bank has compared a possible Yes vote in the Scottish independence referendum to the mistakes which led to the Great Depression of the 1930s.
Speaking on the Today programme, the bank’s global strategist Bilal Hafeez warned
Herald nice attack on the SNP voting against bombing Iraq. Fails to mention the 5 /6 Scottish Labour MPs who also voted against – who were they anyone?
There’s going to be a sustained attack on the SNP over the next months from the Labour press and journos, and one of the worst of the latter as I worked out during my Herald posting days is Settle. I had a few totally on-topic and moderate comments deleted on there, or “held in moderation” (I’m post-moderated), and the only reason I could see would be that Settle didn’t like them. He’s a Carrell, for CiF posters.
Onwards: Something major should gave been held in reserve
The unleashing of hope and self-governance was held in reserve, and thwarted, is now showing its full force.
Incidentally, contrary to your assertion, Andy and his brother, Jamie, came out in time for the press to ridicule them, and then harrass them after the vote.
@yesindyref2
Rebels in Iraq vote.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/iraq-vote-43-rebel-mps
Have I missed something? The English votes on English issues will surely mean that a Scot could never hold a UK government office in the future.
While that excludes posts such as International Development and Foreign Affairs (currently held in the Shadow Cabinet by Jim Murphy and Douglas Alexander) it would be impossible for any UK posts, including that of the PM, dealing with any English issues to be given to a Scottish MP.
Might this be yet another way of marginalising the Scots at Westminster? Wonder what the No voters might think of that?
I expected Salmond to give a major inspirational speech the day before the vote. Something the BBC would have had no choice but to cover. They gave Brown’s intervention enough air time after all.
Just got 3 workmates to NOT buy the Daily Record any more
In today’s edition it states that there were clashes between yes and no campaigners in George square
Then i showed them the footage of the nazi salutes and orange order terrifying women and children in Glasgow and they were horrified
They asked if it would be possible to send the link to the Daily Record which i did and put a bet on with them they would not mention it (they said if not they would buy the sun from now on) could not get them to give up a paper all together
@ Elizabeth Sutherland
Any questioning of the validity of the vote whether at the counting or through the Postal Voting procedure has become anathema on this site.
You will be ridiculed and called a conspiracy nut and that you wear a tinfoil hat.
A civil unbiased discussion of this topic on Wings would until recently have been expected by most of the regular posters I suspect.
Re the Herald I will only buy the Sunday herald but will not BLC on either since it adds to their advertising revenue.
Also re Andy Murray – my daughter said there were a couple of very late converts to Yes in her work due to the twitter abuse he received.
interesting poll here
Can England survive without Scotland’s wealth
http://www.dailypoll.co/poll/8yP
The battle may be lost but the war goes on folks.
There are a lot of changes coming and re-organising from YES Scotland , Derek Bateman and the like.
http://allofusfirst.org/latest/
There is a pretty impressive names there and as you can see folks , the battle is just beginning .
Lets get Indi reps in at WM and then same again in SE . We have learned a lot of lessons during the referendum and the changes coming will give us a louder voice.
We can do this . Just have a wee bit patience.
Morag: I expected Salmond to give a major inspirational speech the day before the vote
You’re an enigma – too many odd negatives, too many personal disappointments expressed.
You can make your rabble rousing speech claim of many another Yes supporter – Professor Tom Devine, for example, the one man who had all the historical facts at his fingertips, and eloquence too. As a once upon-a-time No voter with no political axe to grind he got a lot of press and media coverage in the last days.
The democracy triumph was, and remains, a grass roots movement, albeit activated by the SNP’s manifesto promise of a referendum and a debate.
By the end it belonged to the grass roots movement, not to Salmond.
@caledonia – I think England will survive but it would have to stop ‘punching above it’s weight’ which is kind of what Billy Bragg meant, I think.
@YESGUY – in order to achieve that we need to get info out refuting the MSM cos they will be going for the SNP and other Yes parties and dishing the dirt whether true or not to turn the voters back into Labour voters.
I think in the poorer areas of Glasgow for instance there would be more of a chance of getting folk to vote for the SSP in place of Lab.
Onwards says:
at 1:43 pm
“The YES campaign didn’t seem to have any big stories left in the last week.
I was expecting the SNP to come out with something. Maybe a promise to start a national energy”
BT clearly breached purdah with the announcements of DevMax.
YES chose to play straight. Whether something new could have swung it back, we’ll never know.
BT’s actions will come back to bite them. They won because of promising DevoMax. If they try to substitute DevBuggerAll then we will find ourselves in a Scotland, once again, where the majority do want independence. That cannot be ignored.
English Parliament fine, but not spending UK money. No taxation without representation. English Parliament raising and borrowing and spending English money and paying back the English debt.
Eg Scotland raises £60Billion. Gets back £45Billion. Rest of the UK raises £540Billion + borrows and spends £100Billion Scotland pays back £4Billion on rest of the UK debt. Pro rata the rest of the UK borrows and spends £10Billion more of public money spent on private sector.
Anyone know where they keep the rules governing the referendum?
Just a thought, but why don’t people who still want to fly kites about vote rigging go and do it on the thread under Doug’s article. Maybe reading the 1000+ comments first.
@Square Haggis
I think its a Scottish Parliament Act so you could try the Holyrood website.
IMHO.
We need to be coordinated and cooperate in our efforts and not miss the goal.
The three main points of unionist resolve are riddled with lies and misinformation and their credibility is already on a shoogly nail.
Westminster – daily record – and BBC. Their propaganda and lies need to be brought to the attention of the general public, and hammered home for the lies and deciet they spout.
As for the Labour Party (scottish branch) they are in self destruct mode, let them cut their own throat.
Home rule candidates should join forces and push for all Westminster seats.
We need coordination cooperation and a single voice for HOME RULE. THEN WE CAN GET BACK TO PARTY POLITICS.
English votes on English issues just won’t happen. All they are going to do is put off any UK devo/constitutional stuff indefinitely. Even if Farage can win a few seats, he’s really only a useful idiot to be used in much the same way BBC used UKIP to attack Scotland.
Scotland will get the devo Labour said it would and if its not up to anything Crash and co said, too bad. Brown in particular said vote NO and get not just devo max but a federal Scotland in a union with England and there is not a snowballs chance in hell of England allowing that.
Read Lamont and co’s devo nothing and get used to it. The day after the referendum Brown left the UK for New York. If Crash ever speaks about Scotland again, it won’t be about his Naw thanks frauds.
Thanks Capella. I was tempted to be first in on the Herald thread with a one-liner but went to bed instead as I didn’t have a list or exact numbers.
Scottish Labour MPs who voted against Iraq action:
Anne Begg
Mark Lazraowicz
Katy Clark – my MP
Ian Davidson
Iain McKenzie
3 perhaps 4 no surprises. Ian Davidson is a strange one. The only person that controls him, is himself. Katy Clark is often a rebel, I like rebels. She could consider moving to the SNP …
I guess my view is that there is no clear objective, and no exit strategy, which is sufficient in itself for voting against it.
Grouse Beater, I don’t know why you’re getting at me.
We constantly had the Braveheart thing thrown at us, and emotional Scottish nationalism was derided. We were denied that part of our natural case for being a real nation again. Meanwhile Brit nationalism was stoked for all it was worth.
The Yes campaign stayed away from any emotional case for fear of being attacked for it. But it’s still a powerful impulse. A well-judged speech tying head to heart at the very end might have had a significant effect and I rather expected it.
Salmond would have been the one to make it. You’ve heard him, I presume. And he’s the one the BBC couldn’t really have refused to show. But I suppose someone thought it wasn’t a good idea.
This is fascinating stuff. I’m just nosing around the whole referendum process stuff, not believing it, but keeping an open mind. I read a few days ago, that officials in a Govt. dept. in Dublin, were aware that pressure was being applied to come out in favour of No. I suppose the thinking being the more Govt. types the better.
http://www.celticleague.net/news/manipulation-and-interference-in-referendum-campaign-un-told/
@ Morag, so no vote fraud but Tory Ruth Davidson stated specifically that they had seen ballot results over “weeks” running up to the actual polling day.
So once again, if you know, where is the legislation allowing the opening of postal ballot papers, how many can be opened, why are they doing this and how many postal votes were actually opened prior to ref day?
Thanks in advance Morag.
liz (EM?) I probably will do the odd post on the SH, just to help keep the momentum going, though there are plenty of good ones including Shona, an earlier convert from NO to Yes and a good keen poster, as well as many of the old gang. The Herald is already backtacking on its promise to hold Broon & Co to the “substantial powers” as a reason for its NO, and gone back to knocking the SNP. Pathetic. I just scan the headlines now, don’t bother logging in to to get my 6 articles or so.
Grouse Beater
YES Scotland could have done with Morag on its board and another critic as well. I’d nominate her for next time. There was also an article H or SJ I think, saying Salmond wqas surrounded by people who said yes to him, and that’s possible too. Criticism, rather than blame, makes sure we all get it right – next time. Acceptance of such as a sub-standard YES website just perpetuates the errors.
@ yesindyref2
I remember Ian Davidson being one of the “usual suspects” in the dim and distant past (25-30 years ago) before Labour got into power and he became a line-toer. Maybe there’s a tiny flicker of independent thought left in him.
I don’t believe Katy Clark will ever leave Labour – too many generations of her family identified with it. Before the Labour payroll all parroted the party line, I did briefly hope she might be rebel enough to be on our side; she wasn’t, but now she’s back to her comfort zone of a safe Westminster seat from which she can vainly struggle against the tide. It’s a shame.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/61076.aspx
@morag,
I did.
Also was at the count and agree that it was clean but only from the perspective of what was presented. Even a recount would give the same result.
In terms of what happened between the polling stations and the count is another matter entirely.
At our Yes polling agents training session shortly before the vote someone asked if we were allowed to follow the van to the count and were told no.
This opened the floor to the deeper question as to the security of a van going from polling station to polling station across a dark rural landscape unaccompanied.
We were assured “someone” would be keeping an eye on this.
Most agreed the count should have been done at the polling stations and verified by neutral observers, only seemed logical. Some scunnered people after this meeting 🙁
Postal votes are opened starting on a set day then every morning thereafter. Polling agents are permitted to be there to observe the process. The agents are not supposed to be able to see the fronts of the papers, but sometimes it’s possible to get a glimpse or to see where the vote is placed from the back. People tally these, it’s called sampling.
You’re not supposed to do it but it’s commonplace. The real offence is to communicate the information to anyone else. Ruth clearly admitted some No agents had been doing it and passed on the information. That’s what’s being investigated.
Mhairi Hunter already tweeted her annoyance that Ruth’s gaffe probably means they’ll clamp down hard on this in the future – “spoiling it for everyone”.
Another Tory off to UKIP – https://archive.today/rdxw7 – how many more before next May (no mention of a by-election for this one) and what consequences might it have for us?
Morag: We constantly had the Braveheart thing thrown at us
I’m sorry, your opinion often veers wildly from waffle to making obvious the obvious. The emotional cause, as you put it, was everywhere. What do you think waving Saltires and painting them on faces constituted?
That magical camaraderie was everywhere, the infamous Scottish cringe nowwhere to be seen. Confidence and the ability to relate to others is an emotional maturity.
For some reason you are projecting your disappointment onto one man, when we are the people who lifted the up the Saltire and were running with it.
In any event, Salmond did make keynote speeches in the last days. However, he is barred by electoral rules from introducing any new offers in the last days, unlike the opposition who brazenly tore up the rule book.
Tell us how you think the movement for genuine democracy can capture the ideal? What do you propose?
Square Haggis, I’m tired of saying the same thing again and again. So if you don’t mind, I’m moving on here.
To reiterate, I’ve already explained why I’m quite convinced the ballot boxes were not intercepted on the way to the counts. Several times. I’m not doing it again.
Yesindiref2 –
It is time WE take responsibility for our future.
Stop planting it all on the heads of groups, Salmond included. The Yes campaign was a solid middle-class grouping of like minds. I sat among it for two whole days listening and observing and decided to leave it to get on in its own way.
crazycat
Davidson as Chair of the select committee nailed Murrison then MOD minister, to the wall over TFEU 346, patiently, persistently, forcing him to admit that TFEU wouldn’t prevent the rUK having warships (T26) built in Independent Scotland. He might have been anti-Indy, but shipbuilding on the Clyde came first. In fact he persisted with a lot of witnesses, forcing them to express views that weren’t anti-indy – then the summary reports ignored all those witnesses’ testimony.
Kay Clark – yes. Anti-monarchy and wanting infant boys to play with dolls, and girls with hammers, but OK. In 2010 I voted SNP to keep the %age up, but would have voted for her if there was any chance of her losing her seat. It’ll be sad in 2015 to vote SNP and see her go, maybe I’ll write her to suggest she changes parties …
@morag,
I read of only one Winger who followed the ballot boxes from polling station to count, every other round trip remains a mystery.
Just a wee bit curious.
Tired of this. It’s fantasy. Didn’t happen, couldn’t have happened. Completely sick of explaining why.
@RichardLochhead ·4h WOW! Steady flow of folk joining @theSNP today at our Elgin recruitment stall – onwards & upwards for Indy movement
I like the way he says Indy Movement rather than SNP.
@ Morag, yes you see its not good is it really? No legislation info just postal ballot’s can be opened everyday.
So who gets to open them and why?
Is it the decision taken on the say so of a council or councillor or the polling count officer in charge?
If they decide to open ballots everyday, do they open every ballot coming in, all 800,000 from 1st Sept 2014?
If they open ballots everyday, did both YES and NO agents head to the polling stations each and everyday too, to NOT record the result?
Effectively, both sides were taking their own exit ballot poll long before polling day and if they were, this clearly gave the NO campers a staggering advantage considering they held all the cards, if you get my UK.gov drift. Wonder how many NO people monitoring and reporting daily results for Davidson/Bettertogether were also popping in to the local William Hill too.
This ain’t no democracy, its a giant insane fraud or its all lovely and fine and nothing to worry our silly little heads about.
Let’s concentrate with hope and encouragement on the tremendous response to YES post-referendum demonstrations and regrouping. This is only the beginning – with this energy and real grassroots involvement, Independence WILL succeed – soon.
Grouse Beater
Indeed. I had my self-appointed task and stuck to it with no prompting or control. If I could go back I might do a little differently, there again I probably wouldn’t.
Next time though I do different, and the same has to go for the official campaign, and the only way for that to happen is for us to kick it up the proverbial – now.
Katy Clarke is my local mp she is actually quite a good local mp and basically said and did nothing during referendum .Unlikely she would turn to snp and even though I voted snp against her she is basically a good old fashioned left wing labourite from a bygone era where the voter comes first not the toeing of the party line and nose to the trough.
Och well, spoon, cereal…
@yesindyref2
“Anti-monarchy and wanting infant boys to play with dolls, and girls with hammers, but OK.”
That’s really funny! Those are some of the things that I think are ok about her! Nothing would make me vote for her, though, so I’m glad I moved out of the constituency during Brian Wilson’s tenure.
Meanwhile, it looks as if the Tories are preparing themselves for the possibility of EU exit, starting by putting repeal of the Human Rights Act (England and Wales) in their manifesto: https://archive.today/DTnoj – I’m starting to feel a little more hopeful (though there is still the awful prospect of their winning and being able to impose these things on us).
Heedtracker: Tory Ruth Davidson stated specifically that they had seen ballot results over “weeks” running up to the actual polling day.
That has to be investigated and I believe actually is.
The only planned and open attack on the democratic process came from the three Westminster parties colluding to block any prosperous relationship Scotland with England, and calling upon business partners, banksters, the press and media to batter that message home.
There is nothing democratic about their tactics, making next time around a certainty we employ a ruthlessness of purpose to achieve the desired liberty for Scotland’s people.
Just seen a clip where McTernan admits the same on the Andrew Neil show on the 14th Septenber
Paul Alexander Mills ?@rathoCC
So now it is juvenile to vote against killing people. Good Bye #ScotLabour you do not know or care about Scot wishes http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/wider-political-news/row-as-snp-mps-refuse-to-support-air-attacks-on-is-in-iraq.25440055 …
Khaled Z ?@der_bluthund
Only two political parties voted against military action in Iraq as whole parties: The #SNP and the #Greens. Remember that come May 2015
I’ve put an appropriate URL about postal vote opening in the appropriate thread “our man on the scene”. LOL 🙂
@Grouse Beater – and that’s why we will not respect the vote. If it had been won fair and square it would be a different matter, we wouldn’t have liked it but would have accepted it.
Even my youngest who doesn’t get upset by much was furious about the interference and is at a rally in Inverness today.
We cannot allow our anger to dissapate
Not long back from the ‘voice of the people’ rally @ the Scottish Parliament. Was quite uplifting to hear the speeches particularly thought Kate Higginss (wfr) made some valid points in giving us statistics from the no vote and what we need to do. Was great to see such a cross section of society from the very young to the more senior citizens amongst us. And WOW what a spectacular scene it all made with it awash with Saltires/Yes flags and Lion Rampants amid such an awesome backdrop of Arthurs Seat and the Scottish Parliament. Its true..we are not going away is the message to the British state. Hoping to hear about the other events in all the other Scottish cities today.
r.
Chris Cairns cartoons really do improve with time like a fine malt. In this one, he has the finger right on the pulse. Politics just got a whole lot more interesting for the masse. This story of our independence struggle is not over. History is continuing to happen in front of us. Blink and you’ll miss it. Events are engaging even more of the public who were previously non political. Its all to the good of Scotland.
Catalonian independence referendum announced for 9th November. Fingers crossed for a positive outcome.
There is a guy on facebook with a video in which he has got a carrier bag full of YES marked ballot papers. Said he was tipped off to their whereabouts by a phone call.
No, I do not think this means there has been wholesale fraud.
At worst I expect that this might be a black op to discredit and demoralise YES voters. i.e. the guy has, I would guess, probably being duped into it.
Would fit with Cameron’s call to clamp down on conspiracy theorists at the UN.
With another defection to UKIP this afternoon there will be another bi-election coming soon. I think UKIP will try to engineer these in the months up to May’16 to gain widest publicity.
I only wish we could refer to them as rUKIP!
Well, perhaps we could as David Coburn MEP is not registered to vote in Scotland.
Heedtracker, the procedure for opening postal ballots was the same as it always is. Nobody “just decided” to do anything. Agents for both sides were notified about where and when. They’re there to ensure the process is properly carried out and no votes are added or subtracted.
Probably both sides were taking a sly peek. The real offence is to disclose information discovered at the opening, and that is why there is an inquiry now. Someone obviously disclosed info to Ruth – multiple someones actually. The problem will be finding out who exactly did it.
Chic, I agree with you about that video. It seems to have gone quiet as people realise it’s likely to be a hoax – either by the guy himself, or someone using him.
It would be very easy to photocopy a postal ballot form and set up a scenario like that. I fear that’s what has been done.
James, McTernan doesn’t actually admit to sampling postal votes in that clip. It’s probably what he was talking about, for sure, but he has plausible deniability. He could say he was talking about an internal “exit poll” of postal voters carried out for the No campaign.
With Grayling aiming to take the Britain out of the EHR, Labour back to backing wars and backbenchers coming over all UKIP it seems we didn’t have to wait long for the UK to lurch back to the right.
It will all end in tears.
So, Grouse Beater, you had the chance to be inside the Yes Scotland campaign but decided to walk away rather than try to improve their performance from the inside. That’s a shame.
I trusted them to use my enthusiasm and committment wisely. I was prepared to deliver their material and promote their message because it was the only way I could see to achieve what I wanted to achieve. I became increasingly frustrated by the bland, anodyne literature I was given to distribute, and the passive speak-no-evil attitudes of the main players. Not to mention the awful web site and the impossibility of buying anything from their online shop.
I don’t see why we all have to take a vow of silence over our misgivings now.
Liz, that way lies madness. The actual vote was fair, honest and transparent. The minor fiddle Ruth admitted to is something routinely done by all parties at elections and it didn’t change the outcome.
We need to be getting angry about the dirty tricks in the campaign. The approaches to banks and supermankets and foreign governments and so on to speak out against us. The blatant breaching of the Edinburgh agreement. The false scare stories and the final false promise. The role of the media and in particular the BBC in destroying the Yes campaign.
Imagining there was vote rigging is only going to suck energy from the real problem.
Ach to hell wi the cereal, I’m goin the whole hog wi a plate of mince n tatties!
Still having trouble finding anything related to the actual rules and regulations for the referendum. Plenty on rules for campaigners and people taking part but nothing on the step by step process such as would have been issued to the councils involved.
Dying to see info if anyone has it?
Chic
Yes, I saw a post about that. Left beside a bin – how convenient is that!
liz
Anger is good, directed anger is much better. Devo-max not delivered, GE2015, SE2016, Indy ref 2, 75% YES, onwards and upwards.
@Morag – I’m not talking about vote rigging – if you had read any of my previous posts on this you will see that – I was also a polling/ count agent.
I am talking about the corrupt media, the ‘vow’, Broon lying his head off re pensions and transplants plus also offering ‘home rule’, ‘devo max’ . which he was not in a position to do so – that was wrong, wrong, wrong.
Apparently as many as 25% of Yessers changed their mind cos of the ‘new powers’ on offer.
That is what we must not forget, that’s why we need to keep our anger alight – to continue to fight for maximum devo max or the ref is not valid.
John Swinney even said on QT that he was approached by Yes folk who said they had changed their minds for the new powers.
We must hold them to the timetable which they hope will disappear due to the war in Iraq.
I would agree Morag, it was the constant uphill battle of fighting the media with the BBC and ITN sneering at every Yes story and devoting hours of uncritical coverage to even the least credible of Better Together’s press releases.
In the face of almost Soviet era style propaganda what is incredible is that 1.6m voted Yes. The number of people who voted No as Union Flag waving loyalists was small, a greater number voted against their inclination because they feared the outcome would be as awful as the picture painted by No.
People don’t like being forced to vote against their heart, that is why Labour needs to think long and hard about what it is they have done…although I think they are too late on that score.
Morag at 14:33 and other times
I notice you have been griping repeatedly today, about how the SNP and Alex Salmond didn’t hold a final rousing rallying speech the day before the referendum day. Fact is, they did.
It was held on 17th Sept (the night before the poll) scheduled between the hours of 2000h to 2200h. The BBC showed full live uninterrupted coverage Of both Nicola Sturgeon (as the warm up) then full coverage of Alex Salmond’s full speech which lasted about 45-50 minutes.
The Perth Royal concert hall was packed, with more saltires than I have seen before. Like I say this was given full uninterrupted coverage by the BBC. The fact you missed it completely, does not mean it didn’t happen.
How about you get your facts straight before laying failure at Alex Salmond over and over again. I expect better of you.
Please, folks, get a grip please. Stop letting naysayers lead you up the garden path, with utter pish.
Onwards and upwards, and FFS stoap moanin’. In the nicest possible way. 🙂
OK, once more. The referendum was run by local councils. They printed their own ballot papers, which is why there were some minor differences in layout.
All these councils included SNP councillors. Some were actually SNP controlled. They used council officials, workers and locally-recruited volunteers to carry out the necessary tasks like polling clerks and tellers.
These people weren’t some shadowy “they” under the control of Ernst Blofeld or something. They were your friends and neighbours. The retired schoolteacher next door, the bank teller who counts out your money. Some of them voted Yes and some of them voted No. Since most were under 65, the chances are that most of them voted Yes.
They were all watching each other, in a friendly and polite way of course. Nobody was alone with the opportunity to create mayhem. This idea that some enormous country-wide conspiracy could have spirited away boxes on the way to the count and tampered with them, with nobody finding out and nobody squealing and none of the counting agents realising that the votes from the individual boxes weren’t what the voters put there – it’s fantasy. It’s paranoia.
OK Robert, I had forgotten that. By that time I had given up on the TV and didn’t watch it. (You know I actually thought of going to Perth but decided I needed my energy for polling day itself.)
You’re right, and I was wrong to say that. I still have reservations about the Yes campaign, but that complaint was out of order.
Liz, I misunderstood your post. I see we’re on the same page here.
@Paula:
You shouldn’t be so excited about the Catalonia’s referendum. Catalonia’s independence movement is much different from Scotland’s. In a way, it is very close to Flanders’ one. Linguistic question + economical question (i.e.: we are rich, why should we pay for the other Spanish regions that are poorer than us and suck up our money). This is almost antipodal to what happens in Scotland.
Interesting piece from Tarf Advertiser which basically says Scotland can vote against Iraq 2 and Libby would be in a constitutional cesspit.
Plus the Spanish government will not recognize the result even if its 80% yes,(wonder would they recognize the vote if it was no)
@ Morag Agreed. How?
We need a free and fair press in a democracy and that we plainly don’t have. Bella are having a fundraiser to get an independent media for Scotland set up.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/26/an-independent-media-for-scotland/. I’ll be contributing to that.
Is anyone building a case about the breaking of the Edinburgh Agreement conditions about purdah period?
Newsnet have the record of the “Devo Max” and “Home Rule” and “Federalism” statements from Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and I heard that George Galloway also promised Devo Max on a televised debate where he took the place of the Better Together spokesman.
What happens if these promises are not kept to timetable?
Nice to see the fire hasn’t left these pages.
Morag.
I’m with you regarding the YES Scotland Team. The home page was dull and it lacked any really atmosphere. like reading a paper with all the bad story’s taken out….Sterile.
Grousebeater.
I wish you had forced your way through and energised the YES Team. They where boring. I enjoy reading your stuff and you have a wee edge the Yes team didn’t.
We saw the energy of the National Collective and the RIC, how it transformed the Yes groups into a positive and vibrant movement. it’s still with us. look at the numbers joining parties. Staggering.
Maybe we need a wider spectrum of people for a new YES movement. old , young, etc. But we have to have an edge too. Playing nice gets you know where when the state will go to any length to oppose you.
And as many of you have noticed … folk are angry.
Patience folks. We are going through the transformation faze. And we have learned much in defeat. only a fool makes the same mistakes.
Wiser, angrier, more determind to succeed.
I love this site.
So here they go, only labour can beat the tories…
http://www.cumbernauld-news.co.uk/news/local-news/we-can-build-on-this-says-labour-1-3554334
I hope to goodness this waste of space gets the boot…
http://www.strathspey-herald.co.uk/News/MPs-open-letter-of-Iraqi-action-27092014.htm
I think that if there has been any breaking of rules, even minor breaking of rules such as sneeky looks at postal votes, there has to be a revote.
It doesn’t matter if those minors offenses make no difference to the outcome of the vote. It’s the principle that rules were broken in a democratic process that’s meant to be flawless that matters.
Rules are rules and, if broken, a revote must occur.
There can be no grey areas. Not even little patches of grey.
Not even tiny ones.
yes rally edinburgh 27th september 2014 scottish independence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo307KQSAK8
I’m sorry, Pictish Ninja, that’s completely unrealistic. It’s simply not going to happen. Save your energies for the possible.
Fabulous!
Furrie!
Skedaddle!
Nana Smith
Wish I hadn`t clicked on that link to dan alexander, theres something about his face that turns my stomach, never mind that
he`s a fkn imbecile. Dinner spoiled.
Not to make a habit of riding on Wings’ tail feathers!
But I’m on a roll with another blog piece, of interest because it features an article from a media outlet in Malta.
VERY revealing and very insightful in its take on the UK media’s treatment of the indyref.
Might provide some entertainment while the Rev is on holiday!
http://www.pictish.ninja/post/press-ganged/
Onwards!
The canvassing done by RIC showed MASSIVE support for Yes that is why we on here and the wider Yes community were confident of victory. We were even putting bets on a Yes win of over 55%. My friend who was at PQ with me on the Sunday said to me we are going to win and I told him that no matter what happens the British Establishment cannot afford to lose Scotland so don’t get too excited.
Now I believe that for settled will there had to be at least a 60/40 win for either side and I believe that is what the No side were aiming to achieve, Darling himself mentioned this early in the campaign. I don’t think they ever expected Yes to surge in to the lead and win the referendum which to me explains that they couldn’t get the 60/40 but only 55/45 which is in no way a settled will.
Before I get jumped on I’d just like to add that I once saw a woman on stage being cut in half, her head was in one box and her feet were in another. I know that it’s true because I saw it with my own eyes 🙂
Some education by Max Keiser.
Black Hole of Debt
Before we (Scotland) get pressed into Iraq War 3 and as US planes bomb Syria, it might be a good idea to get a clearer picture of what ISIS actually is.
http://tinyurl.com/my2pwvy
Not the hyped up bunch of madmen our press say they are. (Surprise!) Of course we funded and armed them via Saudi Arabia who, incidentally, have beheaded 19 people this year (Craig Murray).
Our SNP MPs did the right thing I believe, just as Alex Salmond did if I remember rightly, during the original vote in Westminster for IW1.
from 1.30 sounds like Zeig heil
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29394971
@A.N.Surgent
Sorry about that, luckily I’d eaten before clicking.
Plus I forgot to archive, naughty me!
Meanwhile, Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie has warned nationalists not to seek an “ultra-extreme” form of devolution.
Willie lives in a state of perpetual terror that Holyrood might have some real powers and that one day he might actually have something to do.
😉
@Capella – You wont get any MP repeating that about ISIS as they will have learned the lesson from when wee Robin stood up to them about the myth of Al’Qaidea. Robin Cook RIP
Hi Morag,
I think you’re right. It won’t happen.
But, if there were irregularities, even slight ones, I do think it should be re-run.
Why?
Well, the UK claims to be this great purveyor of democracy (which some of us would dispute).
But if it wants to live up to those claims, it has to do things by the book, take it to an extreme of sqeaky-cleanness, to prove it does what it says on the tin.
But, you’re right. It will never happen.
I do like the way we’re putting pressure on the establishment, though.
(Thanks, Rev, for putting up with my cheekiness above – again!).
I’m off for a pint. Have a good Saturday evening everyone!
Have a well deserved break Stu. Found the site around a month ago and it has been a fantastic source of information. See bombing Iraq will cost £3 billion and many innocent lives also. Rough calculation means Scotland will be paying £300 million towards that, no wonder they held this decision until after the referendum. I wonder if the going gets tough and we are not getting results from 30,000 feet we deploy troops. What’s the betting it will be the “brave” Scots in the front line like all other wars they have been involved in???? I knew we were worth something and not just our oil, gas, whisky, renewables etc etc etc
Pictish Ninja.
really enjoyed that. Will visit again. cheers.
Another tory off to ukip.
https://archive.today/TFqOu
I’m deeply concerned that any genuine quest for truth regarding the voting issues might be dismissed as conspiracy theory or victim mentality. That’s the equivalent of saying “Move along, folks, nothing to see here” or worse – “Leave it, it ain’t worth it”.
But surely by highlighting and investigating any and all underhand tactics there’s a chance that they won’t be repeated at the GE, or at least that they’ll be easier to identify – and counter. So if there’s an allegation of electoral impropriety, let’s insist it’s investigated.
There’s a whole list of other individual issues which left people feeling outraged, each of them involving scaremongering on an appalling scale.
Each time, the cry went up: “They can’t get away with this! Something must be done!” But the apparent lack of a robust response from official campaigners seemed to say, no, let’s just keep going. Let’s not get distracted by holding people to account.
I sometimes wonder if it wasn’t the relentless positivity that left the Yes campaign open to continual attack – the idea that to keep smiling through ever-tightening clenched teeth would eventually win the day.
So yes, by all means move forward, think positively, act decisively, BUT…
the best way to heal wounds is not to leave them to fester, but to flush them out, clean them up and get some smarter armour for the next time.
Looking at the Lord Smith Commission I do wonder about some of the representatives.
Prof Tomkins FFS! The man fundamentally objects to the very existence of Scotland never mind devolve powers to a country he refuses to believe exits.
Tavish Scott? – he was very bitter, I would have thought Carmicahael would make more sense.
John Swinney, Linda Fabiani, Annabel Goldie, Michael Moore all look like solid picks. The Greens and Labour have still to choose people but I would hope Patrick Harvie is involved. As far as Labour is concerned I am simply at a loss for a straight bat on this. Brown? His recent favouring of a federal approach is probably sounder than any of the other candidates. If it is Hood and Foulkes then the whole thing is Foulked.
@HandandShrimp
Greens have chosen Patrick & Maggie Chapman
The Guardian reporting that the Tories are now formally proposing to scrap the Human Rights Act & abolish the right of appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.
Of course, all those No voting lawyers who specialise in human rights law were well & truly warned about this pre-referendum. Cue mass-cognitive dissonance, & parroting of “we’re still better together”.
Another shining example of you reap what you sow…
@HandandShrimp
Meant Patrick Harvie of course
@Nana Smith @5.49
“only Labour can beat the Tories” will be repeated over and over by the Labour Party, the BBC and all of the Labour supporting newspapers in Scotland, because it has been successful at every election since the seventies for them. Unless it can be countered it will be successful for them again. The SNP will be marginalised, there will be no place on the TV Leader Debates because “the SNP cannot form the UK government” Nothing will change. It will be a massive challenge to unseat even a handful of the Labour troughing MPs.
@Morag – it’s OK. it’s been a stressful week.
Capella
Good article on I.S. The whole thing is about Syria not Iraq, seen something coming out of the whitehouse saying that american planes
would not hesitate to fire on Syrian army if they came to close to their allies, although who their allies are is anyones guess.
BTW can anyone link me to the ‘exit poll’ showing soft yessers going to No because of the promised devo option
@ Morag, you say “These people weren’t some shadowy “they” under the control of Ernst Blofeld or something. They were your friends and neighbours.”
But Davidson herself explained on BBC tv that is clearly not the case.
Davidson explained they had known from postal voting for weeks that they had won and how they did it.
So brushing off this whole issue as if its conspiracy theory is rather odd. They knew the results day by day, they were informed at “sampling” of postal votes that seem to happen every day,
Presumably if you knew how many postal votes were opened and why they were opened, you would say.
Presumably, if you knew what electoral regulations allowed sample you would also say and you would also why exactly both letters B then A were opened.
Its not enough to say there those involved are not “shadowy” because according the Leader of the Scottish Conservative party some are.
They garnered extremely valuable poll information and so far, we know that they were able to determine who had won, within maybe a few days of the fist postal votes returned but NO ONE else did.
What else was done with the polling information or is it just another case of very serious legal issues surrounding an election process wide open to fraud and fraud that clearly happened, as Ruth Davidson explained.
Watch the youtube video or is the one where Davidson explains how they did it also a daft hoax designed to discredit the YES vote?
@Nana Smith and @saporian – we must fight against this brainwashing re the MSM.
I’m sure RIC, Tommy and the SSP will be well aware of this.
I’m happy to help in any way to stop Lab from getting voted in.
I know Chris wont mind here is a cracker from Greg..
http://gregmoodie.com/labour-reaches-out/
New SNP members 42,589, total 68,231.
I was at the rally at the Scottish Parliament today! Very inspiring!
I want to know, what about the 790,000 postal votes secreted away to England. Nothing should have left Scotland!
@Liz
Absolutely agree with your post.
We need a new media asap.One that will target the elderly especially.
Prof Tomkins FFS! https://id.theguardian.com/profile/abiesalba/public
A CiF very keen vote NO Slovenia follower of Prof Tomkins at work on the old CiF.
If Prof Tomkins gets going, we’re heading for a large less than zero. Here’s a vote NO Slovene answer to the “sampling issue” and a neat legal dodge too.
Its funny how the winning side are able to dictate what the law is, what it means, and what exactly the Tory Party leader really meant to say when she explained what happened.
Slovenia Bettertogether says,
“This seems to be a case of breaching the electoral silence, not of vote rigging.
Davidson’s comment does not say that anybody deliberately informed the No side.
What is the procedure for opening the postal votes in the UK?
As I explained, if the boxes of postal votes are opened before the voting stations close, all those counting them and all observers know the results.
What was also illegal was policy announcements during the 28 days running up to the referendum.
But the many SNP deliberate LIES during the two years are legal?
Let me remind you that their lie about the automatic EU membership even went to court”
EdinScot says:
27 September, 2014 at 4:45 pm
“Not long back from the ‘voice of the people’ rally @ the Scottish Parliament. Was great to see such a cross section of society from the very young to the more senior citizens amongst us.
And WOW what a spectacular scene it all made with it awash with Saltires/Yes flags and Lion Rampants amid such an awesome backdrop of Arthurs Seat and the Scottish Parliament.
Its true we are not going away is the message to the British state.
This story of our independence struggle is not over.
History is continuing to happen in front of us. Blink and you’ll miss it.
Events are engaging even more of the public who were previously non political. Its all to the good of Scotland”.
That is very encouraging news EdinScot, and I hope that people hear about this continuing upsurge within the country for YES INDEPENDENCE from friends and neighbours.
The BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION and the Scottish based newspapers will ignore these stories and hope everything and everyone will be back to normal again.
Even the unionist politicians think that we view them as before and they are taken seriously..HAHAHAHAHA!
They have let the whole of society, young and old see and hear them humiliating themselves. They cannot ever be taken seriously again.
So, these events are brilliant and should be recognised by all who seek independence. Talk about them, post pictures and video clips. Celebrate the hope for all Scotland!
There was a total of 789,024 bloody postal votes including my bloody postal vote which I sent to Irvine not England, as it said Irvine on the address.
This is a bloody myth. All postal votes were sent to the 32 unitary authorities, none were sent to England. Bullshit and crap.
Ruth Davidson likes to get herself in the news just as often as she can, raising the profile of the Tory Party in Scotland. I have listed some of her most recent performances so that a record is retained for future use.
http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/27/oh-ruth-you-are-an-awful-opportunist/
@ Flower of Scotland “I want to know, what about the 790,000 postal votes secreted away to England. Nothing should have left Scotland!”
There is every reason to assume that they really thought the one and only poll that brought YES up to NO making it all look very close or even heading to say 51% YES. You cant lose your Scotland region to actual democracy, so what do you do if you need that one percent swing and you’re UKOK shadowy types? You need to do something.
So tinfoil hat on and say they did give fraud a go to get that 1%? Then after a clear win, they didn’t need it but now some very weird stuff pops out that no one can explain.
Tinfoil hat off again:D
OK I’m trying to archive that guardian link from the slovene
https://archive.today/S0rJA
@saporian
Oh dear. What a litany of doom and gloom. Cheer yourself up. Here’s the voting intentions James Kelly has from Thursdays Yougov poll. He posted them on his website Scot Goes Pop.
Westminster voting intention (average of four YouGov subsamples) :
SNP 40.3%
Labour 29.5%
Conservatives 17.3%
Liberal Democrats 5.5%
Greens 4.0%
UKIP 2.8%
Feed these figures into Electoral Calculus and see what the result is. Of course, we need to keep up the momentum for the next 8 months and support alt media..
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll_scot.html
Oh this is fun.
Archived link from Kevin Mckenna’s article in observer.
https://archive.today/98eMF
Guys,
I need a little help here. Please see our new video promo here !
Yours aye
Kendo
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-a-free-fearless-news-service-4-scotland/x/2351065
Oops spoke to soon – ignore that 1st archive – this is the link to kevs article
https://archive.today/Avu8m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By3QbFe698c Its all here. So take your pick
“Postal votes are going to be enormously important”
“About 18% is going to come out of postal votes”
“We’ve had people at every sampling over the weeks and been incredibly encouraged”
“I would say from the postal votes that have been cast, we have a lead”
“Well they’re not counted until 10 o’clock tonight but…”
So that is how it goes in teamGB.
Extrapolate interpret etc, we know now that some local authorities may have opened every single postal vote they were sent.
We know that these postal votes were seen, counted and recorded and the info was then given to Tory Party Leader Ruth Davidson, maybe daily.
What else was done with this daily count info and what if the postal vote was actually showing a clear YES win and Bettertogether Brown and Cameron etc went mental in the last week?
BBC project fear bombing reaching a crescendo by the 18th itself and Crash on every channel and every network promising a federal UK, home rule for Scotland and the greatest constitutional change in Britain for over a hundred years,since say the Catholic Emancipation act in 1800?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_emancipation?
And all offered by Labour backbench MP who tells the world he’s a former politician.
If has as been suggested the postal votes went 70/30 to No then the actual 2.83m votes cast on the day was pretty close and more like 49% Yes 51% No.
This means the final spate of polls were accurate and that TNS and YouGov may well have been right, Yes were in front in the final couple of weeks. The last minute panic was, from a Westminster perspective, justified and they did need to start issuing promises like confetti to stem the tide.
It does raise the question as to why the postal votes were so awful but if No were farming the nursing home postal vote then that might explain it. That is legal…just damned poor ethics.
@kendo – You are a true hero of Wings and the Yes movement, contribution made and wish you all the best
No need to open the postal votes to see where the X was, just hold up to a 100 watt bulb. Someone did mention this on Wings about a week before the vote.
@kendo
contribution made. Good luck. Very professional promo video.
This needs to be kept in mind by the electorate. Ian Davidson, a Labour member of a Commons committee that monitors Whitehall spending, paid £5,500 to a family friend to renovate his flat and then took him shooting with members of the House of Lords.
http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/27/ian-davidson-chairman-of-the-commons-select-committee-and-his-expenses-lest-we-forget/
@croompenstein,
Thank you very much indeed for your kind word & support. We’ve invested a fair bit of time and money to get to where we are in the promotional video..just need as much help as my fellow Wingslanders… apologies for bumping this link again but if we can shift the funds up a bit we’ll be posting a short film on Bruce tomorrow at 10:00PM 🙂
Kendo
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-a-free-fearless-news-service-4-scotland/x/2351065
“It does raise the question as to why the postal votes were so awful but if No were farming the nursing home postal vote then that might explain it. That is legal…just damned poor ethics.”
It raises far more than poor ethics HS.
There could be more than 60 thousand Scots North Sea Oil workers that use postal voting because they actually have to. Polls showed them a large YES majority for starters. The whole point is that we don’t know why postal voters are but we should and we don’t who they are either.
The whole postal vote system is a disgrace.
Anyone can have one without providing a reason and now, having lost the referendum, we find out that polling stations at the behest of local councils open possibly every postal vote they receive.
The result is recorded by witnesses for either side and they use it. And the only we, the voters find this out is from the Leader of the Scottish Conservative party explaining it all on live bettertogetherBBC tv.
Even the BBC dude tries to cover it up but Davidson simply explains the law and how they broke it.
Isnt it funny how the whole referendum set up brought a such a convincing NO win when all polls showed they would and yet Gordon Brown, Cameron and co promised extraordinary constitutional change
Mad:D
heedtracker
I confess I am old school and think postal votes should be for reasons of infirmity and necessary absence like service personnel and off shore workers.
See the SNP membership is now 68,231 wonder what my membership number will be I must be quite close to the cow’s tail 🙂
Good luck ken, donation made
I believe that we lost because we didn’t control the media, the unionists did
Regardless of politics, the media in Scotland should be free, once you get of the ground, I will make a point of supporting you,
I was in St. Andrews for the screening of Scotland yet, it was me who asked, when are you making another film?
Seen, Ming and ash down and darling making passionate please for the vow to be kept and predicting wrath upon those who renage on their promises.
Too bad we don’t have a Scottish journalist to ask them what they will do if the vow is broken?
Will they also call for a remote. And will they vote yes?
Kendo
Donation on the way … on Monday (payday) 🙂
I hope Andrew Morton and/or Taranich and other resident WOS history buffs will attempt to put what has happened in some historical context. I’m thinking about what happened at Killiecrankie in 1715, and the repercussions.
I’m no historian, but the superficial similarities are striking, and the whole ‘Yes’ movement could learn priceless lessons from studying what happened to our Gaelic forbears – it ain’t pretty, but the comparison might help get the scales off some eyes.
Tommy Kane says:
27 September, 2014 at 9:58 am
Weegie to ED Are you man or mouse?
Ed pass the cheese please
Re, Wensleydale gromit?
I note that “Fracking” is now to be allowed in Scotland, courtesy of the hoose o turds who recently removed the power to object, from Scotlands parliament.
May I suggest that the SNP make this a cause celebre , and actively fight this on Scottish soil?
This can be done by instigating demonstrations wherever it is observed that fracking is about to take place. I am sure many Scots will be proud to be seen to be pro-active in assisting the SNP in their fight for justice on behalf of the Scottish nation.
With all the national and international furore over this, it is highly likely that the unionists may be forced to repeal this injustice. It also serves to highlight the paucity of meaningful devolved powers which Scotland has.
I think the SNP should “push the envelope” a lot more than they have done in the past, because at present, London thinks that we have ben put back in our box and will revert to being the lickspittles of London which we, alas, have been for the last one hundred years.
They are going to get the shock of their life-The Scots have, after so long, finally have banished the cringe!
A true impartial view from Scotlandshire, wonder what the clunking fist is talking?….
http://tinyurl.com/kc5kg6b
@handclapping says: 27 September, 2014 at 11:12 am:
“I’m all for English votes for English laws, they might get to realise that its their Westminster that is the problem and not our feeble 50”
First, before I forget, thank you, Chris, you are a hero.
NOW : – I’d be all for English votes for English laws if they were voting for them in either a devolved or an independent Parliament of England – but they are not. There are 533 democratically elected members of theUnited Kingdom Parliament sitting in that United Kingdom Parliament as unelected members of thus illegal de facto parliament of the Country of England Parliament. They are opposed by a total of 117 members from the other three countries, many of who are compliant with their English fellow party members.
They thus have become the Master Race Parliament of England devolving English powers down to the three subservient devolved parliaments but still bleating like spoiled children that they are unfairly treated as the other three countries can vote in their illegally, unelected Parliament of England.
Remember these words – “For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”
Well England, there are a goodly number greater than 100 of us still alive and we will, (at least for the time being), fight democratically for our beloved Scotland.
Are you listening MI5? I really do hope you are.
That’s ye telt then! Awa an clype til yer mankit maisters ye maukit quinkins!.
(Anyone require a translation into English)?
I posted here earlier here, submitted it and it disappeared even after saying I had sent it? Spooks or what?? Anyway lets try again…. I wonder if they held back the bombing of Iraq until after the referendum? Seemingly this is going to cost £3bn pounds, rough calculation, that is £300 million share from Scotland. Maybe when they don’t get success from dropping bombs from 30,000 ft on civilians and some of the terror guys they will deploy troops. Guess who will be in the front….? Yes that’s right the guy with the bagpipes and the Scottish Regiment or what’s left of them. See they don’t just want us for Oil, Gas, water, renewables etc etc etc. We do come in handy as cannon fodder as all previous wars involving Britain will demonstrate. Yes “Brave” Scots in first, obviously worth less than some other poor mothers sons.
@HandandShrimp, some cow. I actually love conspiracy theories, simply because they pull the theorists much closer to the conspiracy.
Tin foil back on. So all polls commissioned show easy comfortable NO win for months publicly. We know this. BBC/project fear has Scotland by the short and curlies, except in reality the really don’t.
Pollsters are rigging polls as part of NO thanks campaign but all along YES is growing and growing. Bettertogether know this but watching cities like Glasgow reach tipping point and they all go apeshit.
How to make sudden Devo Max rational? Produce one Sunday Times poll with less than a week to go and they’re off.
The polls were so rigged I thought Glasgow was a hard NO, the hardest NO of all. Here in Aberdeen it looked a lot weaker No and even Yes locally.
How Glasgow suddenly went from very NO to massive YES in the polling booth is another unexplained teamGB mystery.
Or much like lots of lovely local people emptying out postal vote ballot boxes across Scotland daily for three weeks, checking the contents and then putting the ballot paper back in envelope A to left for weeks unsealed and untouched for weeks.
Maybe Morag could explain what the point of having a sealed envelope A actually is, if its immediately ripped open the morn after it arrives at the polling station weeks in advance of the actual polling day.
Because envelope A seems like a complete and utter waste of time now. Well not seems like, it clearly is, as Ruthie Babes Davidson very kindly explained to us all on the old BBC.
“Labour Used Virgin ‘Restricted’ Report to Open NHS to Healthcare Companies”
http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.de/2013/01/labour-used-virgin-restricted-report-to.html
English laws for English MP’s don’t mean anything. When they pass bills for gaint infrastructure spends like HS rail, they are going to be funded in part with Scotland’s share of the finance yet Scotland will have no say in any of it. Yes this is why they worked so hard to save their union but no taxation without representation?
I have tried on several occasions today to, ‘join the conversation’ on the SNPs site. Usually I have no bother but it just keeps on saying ‘page not available’.
Anybody know what’s happening?
@heed – When they pass bills for giant infrastructure spends like HS rail
Wait till they pass bills to frack the f*ck out of our wee Scotland and the naysayers start greetin about the value of their hooses, The I told you so line is going to be so sour..
Please see, below, link to the Wikipedia page for ‘Scottish Labour Party’.
It has some nicely potted stats, and handy alphabetical tables of the MPs and MSPs.
If we are going to do a Wee Red Book/Top Trumps style project aimed at the Westminster-based shower, then the first name we have to deal with is…wait for it…Douglas Alexander.
It might be useful to imagine a huge billboard bearing an image of his face, with a 100% accurate/sourced quote illustrating his role in the deception of the Scottish electorate during the indyref campaign.
When we’ve collected enough quotes, and decided which is best? We move on to the next one…
(It would be nice if Rev gave us a dedicated thread where we could work on this, but as he’s on holiday we’ll just have to soldier-on and file it all in wur heids.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Labour_Party
Nigel
Groups like Falkirk against unconventional gas have already been battling against , well actually many things, lethargy , ‘officialdom, costs etc.
One landowner prepared to allow it can in essence hold a community to ransom , stymied by skewed legislation !
I agree , the whole land reform , building and fracking issue needs to be reviewed.
@HandandShrimp
In jest the rump as they are heading for the coccyx next. 🙂
I had to see what Magnus is saying in the Herald:
“The SNP’s success has put it on the front foot in the new debate about devolving more powers to Holyrood. Although Lord Smith of Kelvin’s commission was established to reconcile competing proposals from Labour, the Conservatives and the LibDems, it is the SNP’s demands which have grabbed the headlines. The details of a new Scotland Bill will not be known until the end of the year but Ms Sturgeon is already positioning herself to argue, as surely she will, that whatever emerges is wholly inadequate and a betrayal of voters who put their faith in the No parties’ home rule vows.
Astonishingly, then, the week after the referendum was lost and its leader resigned has proved a good one for the SNP. And that’s without mentioning the party’s membership has more than doubled.”
Not far off trebled now, only another 8,000 to go, probably all that’s left of the three unionist parties’ combined membership in Scotland.
Mmm, when signing up for the SNP, people have to tick that they don’t belong to any other political party. Labour party members in Scotland don’t need to worry about that one! The Labour Party left them years ago.
@heedtracker says: 27 September, 2014 at 11:37 am:
“Far right Aberdeen Press and journal liggers have Willie Rennie fear mongering that any more devo will be SNP’s “back door independence” which sounds a bit painful, even from him.
Och! That’s just that wee bauchle Rennie feeling brave when someone else has done the dirty work. So now he’s doing the usual Britnat Willie Waving and crowing, “See me I’m punching above my weight again”. Just ignore the wee bauchle for he’ll get his soon enough when we vote him out.
Tick! Tock! Rennnie, Tick! Tock!
As regards the postal vote, I spoke to a colleague (YES) who has used one for years although fit and active. Her reason “I hate having to run the gauntlet at polling places of everyone handing out fliers etc”. So all sorts of reasons are used. Personally I believe it should only be utilised by people away from place of residence (work, holiday) or medical reasons.
Very O/T BUT
NW Edinburgh and Central Foodbanks were invited to collect some of the food at the Voices for the People Rally at Holyrood, the rest going in a van thru to Clackmannanshire Foodbanks.
The total that we received in Edinburgh was 2235.65kg, add on to that the van load to Clackmannanshire, I would reckon it was well over 3 tonnes of donations.
Thank you everyone, that donated, helped with sorting and packing the vans and trailers and cars full of stuff.
@ Croompenstein, the real fracking tragedy for Scotland is less the debatable harm fracking production does and far more the fact that fracking in Scotland could have easliy funded a Scottish oil and gas pension fund much like Norway.
This is why the insanely greedy super rich nutters like Sir Ian Wood piled in so hard with their no Scots oil in a few years fraud and no doubt why the Queen purred too.
The poor inherit the earth and the rich take the mineral rights was never truer than on the 19th Sept in Scotland. Its unbearably sad but welcome to teamGB.
We need to be getting angry about the dirty tricks in the campaign. The approaches to banks and supermankets and foreign governments and so on to speak out against us. The blatant breaching of the Edinburgh agreement. The false scare stories and the final false promise. The role of the media and in particular the BBC
well said Morag.
Cynical Highlander & Fred Blogger thank you so much for the links to the rally in Edinburgh today; just what we need to raise our spirits. I was in Glasgow today visiting my daughter who’s just started at Glasgow Uni, and we were in Buchanan Street. I was proudly wearing my “We are the 45%” t-shirt which arrived this morning, and we stopped to watch Clanadonia performing. I was so chuffed when the lead drummer came up and shook me by the hand! I also got into conversation with two guys at Harthill services who had voted Yes and were totally gutted. We agreed that the fight goes on. Looking forward to seeing some of you in Freedom Square on the 12th!
@Robert Peffers –
You are a gentleman, so it wouldn’t do for you to call Rennie what he is – an embarrassing fud.
Watching him last week, trying to pay tribute to Alex Salmond whilst still scratching around for some credit for the ‘No’ win, was toe-curling.
It wouldn’t take much for Willie Rennie to ‘punch above his weight’. There is no substance to him: nothing there; nothing to see. Even a feather has some mass, and is subject to the laws of gravity.
I’ve linked to the clip below many times on WOS, and will continue to do so on a periodic basis until this fourth-rate clown has left the stage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBEsx1Mul8M
@heed – There is a special place in hell for Ian Wood and his ilk, we will never ever free Scotland from the British Establishment with a fair and free election because sadly that does not exist in TeamGB
Pictish Beastie, that’s a fantastic blog article. Great find in the article from Malta. Sadly, I saw a very negative article in the same publication, pretty much toeing the WM line and committing all the outrages Vassallo notes from the Toryraph.
But it’s a great angle, and one I didn’t see articulated nearly often enough during the campaign.
@cirsium (9.22) –
Tried to say hello on a recent thread…is it yourself I was chatting with at the most recent PQ demo?
Just to say hiya, and it was great meeting you and having a chat, albeit brief.
English MPs only to vote on English issues … Aye, spending Scottish money though!
Let everyone never forget who subsidises whom in this twisted Union.
My grannie used to steam open my grandad’s letters when she suspected he was having an affair with an American lassie, she’d have loved this stuff 🙂
http://tinyurl.com/k7bgaus
Ian Brotherhood, I saw you last night on a youtube video of the SSP trying to attend a local debate/hustings during the referendum; they wouldn’t let you in the building, and some of the people attending were complaining because you were peacefully handing out leaflets outside. I was like a little girl shouting “I know who he is!” Great to put a face to the name at last.
with regards to fracking – if you want to have some idea of what it has meant to the people in the USA and the campaign against it in Co Fermanagh, Northern ireland, another beautiful part of the UK!! have a look at http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/01/09/to-frack-or-not-to-frack/ which was posted in january of this year.
The post is obviously Ireland-centred but it also contains a comment by a researcher in the field and a list of references which Scottish anti-fracking groups will find helpful. It was also cited widely by the irish national anti-fracking organization.
As far as I know fracking in Co fermanagh has been halted pending an environmental assessment and does not look as it it is going forward any time soon. best of luck to the scottish anti-fracking groups
We’ll maybe get nothing out of Devo Min but at least we’ve got 2 candidates on Strictly. This is to prevent the BBC being accused of bias. Judy might be struggling to get the English vote though.
Before I refresh is anyone else having problems in the page reloading?
Heedtracker, give it a rest. You presumably this and presumably that, when you obviously don’t know how the postal votes are routinely processed by the councils or the role of the observers in ensuring this is done without any votes being removed or added.
Everybody tries to “get a feel” of how the postal votes are going, judging from the percentage they happen to sneak a peek at while they’re being opened. There is a very strict requirement not to try to see how any individual has voted, or divulge such information if acquired accidentally. There is no suggestion that requirement was breached.
There’s also a declaration of secrecy about not divulging the way the overall postal vote has gone. In years past this was often ignored – journalists often hinted about what had been seen during the opening. At the very least, agents tend to come back from the opening either grinning from ear to ear or glowering, depending.
If detailed sampling records were being collected, combined and collated by the No campaign, they should at the very least have kept extremely quiet about it. And consider this. Yes had agents at the opening as well. Yes may simply have been keeping very quiet about it.
Ruth is in the position of someone having confessed on live TV to something like a speeding offence. Except the real offence was committed by the agents who broke silence rather than her, and it might be difficult to prove which individuals did that.
She’s forced the authorities to pay attention to what she said, by (unlike John McTernan) actually giving details of how it was done. So maybe procedures will be tightened up and maybe someone will get a slapped wrist.
But they weren’t doing anything that hasn’t been routinely tried by every party for decades. And it didn’t alter the result of the referendum, and all these votes were counted normally.
Morag
Quite.
and all these votes were counted normally
aye, the votes that arrived at the counting stations!
This is my very first post.
Just watched an advert for the Daily Retard, the liars are going down, let’s finish this one, Hootsman next!
Does anyone know how many people signed the declaration for YES? I remember signing and heard weeks ago that it was over 1m but haven’t heard what the final total was.
@Vince, 9.41pm
Judy’s a shallow silly woman who came out against independence on Desert Island Discs (I remember this from the days when I actually listened to BBC radio); her choice of music was also pathetic. If I cared about crap like Strictly I’d be hoping she got voted off in the first episode, but frankly they can all take a running jump. (And by the way, I reckon once Brucie kicks the bucket, all kinds of worms will crawl out from the skirting boards. He makes my skin crawl almost as much as Jimmy Savile did.)
And you have any evidence that some votes didn’t?
Good grief, we’re off again. We went over all this on the thread below Doug’s article, all 1000+ comments of it. I’m fed up explaining how robust the system is against large-scale organised vote-rigging. I’m not doing it again.
@Natasha
I heard the Judy episode of Desert Island Discs and I recall she refused to say how she was going to vote but her choice of music was very Scottish and included “Caledonia”.
Guys, PLEASE give it a rest about vote rigging! It’s not getting us anywhere and we need to focus on winning the next battle. You’re all committed, passionate and intelligent people and I have the greatest respect for all of you. Let’s put all that to good use. 🙂
OK, I said I wasn’t going there again, but people keep saying that postal votes were taken to England. I know of no evidence for this at all and as far as I know it didn’t happen. What on earth is all that about and where is it coming from?
@Capella
Sorry, I may have got that wrong; I thought she said she was voting no, but I stand ready to be corrected. I expect I just jumped the gun because I didn’t like her choice of music! Apologies if I maligned her.
Natasha, you’re right. I was just slightly curious about this apparently unsupported rumour some people keep repeating as fact.
If we as a community keep on about this vote-rigging nonsense, we won’t properly take on board that Yes lost the referendum. And if we can’t do that, we’ll never be able to figure out how to persuade the missing 200,000+ voters we need to persuade.
@Natasha –
I suspect you watched the ClanDestiny video which was filmed by oor very ain Albalha and her man, Alistair.
It was the launch of ‘Better Together North Ayrshire’. Approx 40 people attended, and at least 15 of them were Yes activists who used the session to ask them some straight questions…and answers came there none…
The SSP wasn’t ‘excluded’ from that meeting – we never even asked to get in, but parked ourselves outside, much to the horror of sundry attendees, including that belter Rob Murray. Have to say though, Jackson Carlaw is such a gentleman:
‘Would you like a leaflet?’
‘Oh, thank you so much.’
‘You’re very welcome. Have a good one.’
I need a little help here. Please see our new video promo here !
Yours aye
Kendo
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-a-free-fearless-news-service-4-scotland/x/2351065
Kendo, it’s an interesting idea, though I wonder at this stage if it might have been better to have gone for the target in stages.
I liked the promo, but you need to fix the sound. It was a bit tinny, and I could hear every breath the announcer took. It was really distracting.
@Natasha,
Ian certainly has a face,
for the radio.
Only joking Ian.
@Croompenstein
the votes that arrived at the counting stations
No the votes that arrived at the counting stations went through exactly the same process as the ones delivered by the Royal Mail or handed in at the Council Office
Except that they were couriered in 3 times during the day by the same blokes from the council that stopped and switched ballot boxes on the way to the count so there is no actual proof that the ones handed in at the polling stations were the ones processed and the police weren’t following the vans and neither were the Polling Agents and there could have been 400,000 of them 🙂 !
Aha, the Rev’s not here … !!!!
So, these events are brilliant and should be recognised by all who seek independence. Talk about them, post pictures and video clips. Celebrate the hope for all Scotland!
Yes Piggy, those demos, rallys and protests now taking place and the upcoming ones send an important message to the British state that we aim to get in their faces more and keep up the pressure on those politicians who made us the promises re more powers and tha we hold them responsbile and accountable to us and that we wont be silenced and side lined by the biased unionist msm. It also sends the clear message that no, we arent going away letting them off the hook yet again.
Its a whole new ball game after the referendum and we the public will up the ante. Its called respecting democracy and if they dont deliver then we will, this time, take our independence. There is now 1.6 million of us and growing.
Morag: If we as a community keep on about this vote-rigging nonsense
Some time ago you said you’d had enough of explanation, yet here you are still repeating the same thing. Might I suggest you leave those of a conspiuracy inclination to debate among themselves, and you use your obvious energies to do as you exhort others – get on with persuading doubters and No’s to support the greater cause.
My own person opinion of why we lost the referendum vote is because of the very biased media. I don’t want the prod-independence side to control the media but the media to be balanced which it certainly wasn’t and has not improved since the 18th September.
Why not go back to the thread where it’s all been discussed before and leave people here to discuss new topics then.
Scots artist Peter Howson to hand back OBE in protest over referendum.
Ian: It wouldn’t take much for Willie Rennie to ‘punch above his weight’
Chuckle. If he held a finger up in the air it would constitute punching above his weight.
mmm must be my browser if no one else is having issues with refreshing.
Cynical Highlander, I lost a couple of posts that didn’t appear. That tends to happen when the blog is acting a bit flaky.
@Morag –
‘Why not go back to the thread where it’s all been discussed before and leave people here to discuss new topics then.’
Great idea.
I hope you’ll lead by example.
Capella
I saw a number approaching 1.4m. Sadly over the two years not all will have made it to polling day.
@ Ian, 9.34. Yes, it was me at the PQ demo. It was good to meet you. Just wish the “Cheerio” to the BBC had come to pass.
Capella
I last heard that the Declaration for Yes was at 1.4m and I imagine it must have went higher.
Funny to think that we then only ended up with 1.6m eh?
U’d expect if someone went to the trouble of signing the declaration than they would have made a point of going to vote! Strange one.
Morag: Why not go back to the thread…
For a woman you are adept at macho taunts. Where there is Labour there is vote rigging, as there was in Glenrothes by-election. To what extent I do not know, nor do you, but in something so profound as the loss of an entire country, one subsidising mit oevrspend and wars, any opinion that the British Establishment stops at chiding independence supporters is crashingly naive.
@ ben madigan
Good link re fracking. This is something the Greens could take up and campaign with ater the revelations about licensing.
@Marcia Good for Peter Howson. Agree about media bias. Bonnie Greer said his in a clip from Sky news a couple of weeks ago. She called it “shameful”. Here’s a clip but not good quality sound. Can’t find one with better sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYv6sRS3BwE
Did anybody attend the rally at the Parliament?
I tried to get there and got diverted by domestic matters. How did it go?
Capella
Better sound from Peter Curran’s site:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arv2X_AVUXc&list=UUA1SnaX88FFgyevCuSg27gA
@Morag
My page ends up with the background filling page with no white at all and eventually stops about 2 hrs back c60 comments up, weird.
Sunday Herald front page;
https://twitter.com/newsundayherald/status/515978782038319104/photo/1
Leave Morag alone, guys. The trolls will be sitting laughing because we’re doing their job for them.
@Morag
Thanks Morag. Glad you liked it 🙂
I just hope that the material is funded on merit and not by the level of funding required. It didn’t help us that Stu’s promotion of his project came out as we were ready to launch, but hey ho, these things happen.
Tomorrow night we’ll post a link to a short promo piece on the Bruce. I hope you’ll like the production values on this item.
Yours aye
Ken
@Grousebeater
2 good links further back on the thread; one from Cynical Highlander at 12.50pm and another from Fred Blogger at 5.51pm. Also somebody posted great news about huge amounts being donated for food banks in Edinburgh and Clackmannanshire. Wish I could have been there. BBC news does have a photo, but it manages to make it look as if fewer people were there.
Marcia: Sunday Herald front page
How do you manage to get hold of it so early, and not for the first time? I’m impressed.
FRACK GAS:
Was just wondering if GAS FRACKING was behind Ian Woods political verbiage prior to the referendum. Wondering if he has any interests in this field?
Then there is INEOS who wanted to build large gas holder for frack gas and the means to process it at Grangemouth with easy access to the central belt deposits.
Then there was the big (scottish oil broker) who was one of the first to make large donation to BT. Believe he has quite a colourful history in the energy and political field.
Then Westminster decides it is going to say where Fracking takes place.
Meanwhile mr Woods, Alistair Darling and BP chairman + Westminster stay stume about oil in the Atlantic margin and clyde estuary. Oil in massive quantities. NOD NOD WINK WINK.
Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like but I think there is one massive con being worked here. 5000000 people are being sold down the river for the benefit of the few.
@Marcia thanks. Sound much louder but picture not so good! Oh well. It does provide evidence of an outside observer’s view that the press are shamefully one sided. Democracy needs a free press.
Good to see the Sunday Herald front page and the coverage of the rallies today. We’re definitely not going away.
Lamont finally agrees Scotland has been changed forever by the outcome of the Referendum – But can the Labour Party in Scotland Change?? or Will it Still, “Cow Tow” to the Instructions of the English Labour Party??
http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/27/scotland-has-been-changed-forever-by-the-outcome-of-the-referendum/
@Morag
After refreshing! then I have to refresh again.
@ Morag, thank you for your info, its even better the nth time around.
The whole issue is this.
Both sides of the campaign, although it looks like only the NO side, took a daily poll from this seemingly benign “sampling” procees where postal votes were opened, the ballot paper removed from sealed envelope A and placed on a table in front of reps from either side.
SO again, what is the point of a sealed envelope A if its opened before polling day?
What is the point of having a polling day if the ballot papers are being counted unofficially?
Again, why is the bizarre practice NOT public knowledge? I have a postal vote and am not using it now.
But above all else, clearly Bettertogether UKOK had specific insider knowledge of the postal vote. Davidson explained how it clearly indicated a NO win in the weeks up to the 18th.
This polling information could ofcourse have been used to change and adapt the Brown NO thanks devo fraud and what happened? The Vow.
In any other progressive democracy in the world, all of the above would be considered grounds for a second referendum.
Or maybe your right, all they did was commit an offence much like speeding.
The fact is no one knows how many postal votes were opened each day. Its not in the public domain, why not?
Certainly enough were opened to make them think they had won but why is it some kind of privilege secret that only those in the polling station know how many ballots are opened.
Questions questions Morag.
Grouse Beater
That is quite easy to do, I just post it when it becomes available. Alas I won’t be able to buy it this week as I don’t think it available in London.
@heedtracker
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRGH!!!
Cameron announces plan to cut benefit cap to £23,000 in Sunday Times
Child poverty will soar. Hope the NO voters are happy, each day another vile announcement from a vile government.
Nana Smith
Also 18 to 21 year olds to be denied Job Seekers Allowance or Housing benefit. So if you are married, aged 20 then lose your job what do you do?
Now – heedtracker and Grouse Beater – I’m getting just a wee bit testy here, am I going to have to remove you from my christmas card list?
@Marcia
Beg steal or starve simple in better togetherland.
@heedtracker –
Morag has – very generously, and helpfully – suggested that the discussion about postal votes and general poll-related queries be confined to the appropriate thread, which is here:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/our-man-on-the-scene/
I’m sure Morag will be happy to deal with your questions there.
@jacksloan2013 says: 27 September, 2014 at 2:32 pm:
“Have I missed something? The English votes on English issues will surely mean that a Scot could never hold a UK government office in the future.”
Yes you have missed something. Something I’ve been posting for years. As Westminster has ditched the The Treaty of Union which was what the United Kingdom was. Now read it – it is long but not hard to understand and explains a great deal
In 1707 the three country Kingdom of England and the single country Kingdom of Scotland united as two equally sovereign partners. A Kingdom is a Royal Realm not a Parliament. Article III of that treaty then formed a new parliament,(not either of the old parliaments continued).
Then in 1999 only three of the four UK countries got a devolved parliament and that was the beginning of the end of the United Kingdom. The reason it could not, and has not, worked are really quite simple.
By England NOT also getting a devolved parliament an absolutely idiotic situation now exists. There are 533 English, 59 Scottish, 40 Welsh and 18 Northern Irish members legally elected to the nominally United Kingdom Parliament. That results in the democratically, legally elected Parliament of the United Kingdom having an overall English majority in the House of 416 English Members. England can thus always outvote everyone else at Westminster.
Worse, though, is the situation brought about by there being no democratically legally elected Parliament of the Country of England. That means that Westminster is the de facto parliament of the Country of England but the elected as the English United Kingdom members are also, unelected as such, Country of England MPs.
So we have the de facto Westminster parliament of the country of England now the Master Country and effectively devolving the Powers of the Parliament of England to three underling country parliaments and power devolved is power retained. The head of that de facto Parliament of England also wears two hats He is the PM of the UK & the FM of the Parliament of England but he only has one cabinet.
In effect no Scottish elected person is ever going to get a place in that cabinet unless he is a YES MAN/WOMAN who does as he/she is told because the leader of the Parliament of England/United Kingdom picks his/her own cabinet.
Now you know why such as Douglas Alexander. et al. are not really interested in Scotland – if they were to stick their neck out on Scotland’s behalf then they would be no longer a Government Minister. So either a full federal UK parliament with an English parliament in some other English city or full independence for all four UK countries are the only two cures for the inherently biased in favour of England Westminster Parliament.
If you cannot see that I am correct try explaining where the real English Parliament is? Who is it decides the block grants and as England has no block grant how is England financed? Now wonder why those 533 English MPs are upset at 59 Scottish MPs voting on those UK funded English only matters? For crying out loud the SNP members do not vote on English matters and there are only 59 Scots in total anyway. So England has a clear majority of 474 over the Scots even counting the SNP lot.
@heed – We live in a fair and free democracy where the rule of law and the will of the people is paramount just asked Willie McCrae, Robin Cook, David Kelly, Jill Dando, the poor guy in the hold all impersonating Houdini, the millions of innocent Iraqis and Palestininian civilains and don’t worry we live in the best and free democracy in the world. 3 cheers for TeamGB
Willie Rennie.
How did he get their top job? I know there is only 5 or so of them, but still – surely anyone is better than him.
Then I heard Jim Hume speak who was just as bad. After that, who’s left Tavish of the Shetlandic indy movement, Alison McInnes and someone McArthur
Cynical Highlander, your problem is one I often get on my phone if the connection is slow and/or the thread very long. It seems to be related to download time, and the page gives up before it’s entirely downloaded.
I used to get the same thing on my PC before the server was beefed up, too. I think you must have a problem with a slow connection somehow. I don’t know why the white background is the last thing to come through – it’s very annoying.
They also want to scrap the human rights act.
I would rather scrap the red, yellow, blue tories.
Heedtracker, give it up. All these questions have been answered by me and others, here and on the other thread, if you would just read what people are writing.
“Great Tory housing shame: Third of ex-council homes now owned by rich landlords”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/right-to-buy-housing-shame-third-ex-council-1743338
http://www.newsnetscotland.scot/index.php/scottish-news/9793-no-campaign-postal-vote-conduct-called-into-question-as-second-figure-says-he-knew-no-were-ahead
So this one world class politico alone had access to daily “exit” poll data too, taken by No people at polling stations every day watched as…
Every morning, newly delivered sealed ballot papers in sealed ballot boxes had same seal broken then box opened, envelope B opened, envelope A removed then sealed envelope A’s were untimely ripped open, ballot papers removed from envelope A, laid on a table top, picked up again, placed back in same now unsealed envelope A and I don’t know, popped back in the same ballot box where they then lay until next day, resealed until the whole nonsensical morning process started again and watched by same activists, who then passed info back to Bettertogether HQ, merely for the curiosity of Ruth Davidson?
Not happy.
@Morag
Just for you
@ Ian Brotherhood, I hear you and of course give way entirely to all of you who are happy with the ref electoral process. In fairness to me, of course, it does sound a bit like groupthink, if everyone thinks its fine, then it is but there are huge buts here.
Sad to say, I couldn’t make it to Edinburgh today. I did make it to George Square Glasgow and what I saw there to me can only be described as a Beautiful Obscenity :
http://www.dropbox.com/s/krcmbflqmzyoq6o/20140927_134441.jpg?dl=0
I am proud to be a part of a community and movement which can motivate this level of support, I am not ashamed to say I cried when I saw this on George Square today, but these tears didn’t signify anything other than hope and optimism.
Every one if the bags in the picture.represent the aspirations of the person who left it there. Not ‘Me first’ but all of us Now. That is Beautiful. I don’t think anyone needs reminding of the obscenities which brought us to yhis point.
Regarding the pro indy demos that happened today. Might I respectfully suggest to those who set them up, that they may indeed have an even higher turnout in future, if they grasp 3 important points;
1. Many people are not (nor ever will be) on facebook/twitter
2. Many people are not (nor ever will be) on facebook/twitter
3. Many people are not (nor ever will be) on facebook/twitter
Just sayin like.
Cynical Highlander, that’s sweet!
Paradox
Tell me what you think?
1.Public Heath England final report , June 2014 , evaluated available evidence on issues including air quality, radon gas, naturally occurring radioactive material, water contamination and waste water.
They concluded that the potential risks to Public Health from exposure to the emissions associated with shale gas extraction,will be low- if the operations are properly run and regulated
2.Public Health England. A part of the D of H said that “the report does not address all of the potentially significant negative environmental and subsequent health impacts that shale gas extraction could have on groundwater if operations are not properly run and regulated.”
Now tell me which one you think was sent ( and forwarded to appropriate people) by the policy advisor and which one appeared in the Guardian and where once more is the voice of the people, the Scottish media?
Heedtracker, no. That’s not what happened. Now I went to the other thread, why don’t you?
From the Scottish Independence Postcast, worth a listen:
Alex Salmond making a speech that was not televised or broadcast, shortly after he resigned.
http://www.spreaker.com/user/michaelgreenwell/scotindypod-95-angry-salmond
BBC article on today’s rally at the parliament…
It gives the narrative that the SNP/Nationalists will attempt to distort the devolution pledge into extreme-devolution…. and that the Greens (alone?) have intended to work constructively with the Smith Commission?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29393578
They might have just as well as stuck with SNP accused…
We need to end this.
Morag – don’t rise to the bait.
@heedtracker –
Please don’t misunderstand what I’m saying to you mister/missus. I’m on your side, and I applaud you.
Morag has invited you to take the queries to the thread following Doug Daniel’s article…
(FWIW, I don’t have any faith in an electoral system which requires people to ‘make their mark’, and doesn’t even dignify them with the option of providing a signature.)
Was there electoral fraud? I didn’t see any, and right now, TBH, I don’t fucking care. We ‘lost’, and that’s that.
What I am bothered about is each and every thread being dominated by this issue.
Please, please, please – anyone who wants to discuss ‘ELECTORAL FRAUD’? Here’s the relevant thread:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/our-man-on-the-scene/
Please take all queries to that place, and give us space here to grow other discussions/debate.
Know what I mean?
Long time lurker first time poster here.
In summary my background is SNP voter man and boy, won’t bore you with details but suffice to say both my parent’s were SNP to the core and party members.
Absolutely gutted with the result but here are a few musings which may or may not resonate with a fair few folk.
Flew out of Glasgow on the 19th for a week long holiday in Crete.Arrived to find the other holidaymakers staying in our apartments were almost all from differing parts of the UK.
The referendum was the talk o the toon no doubt about it as they all pressed my partner and I for our thoughts on the result.This is where it got interesting..overwhelmingly they were perplexed as to why “such a high percentage” voted for Independence as they could not understand the thinking behind the concept.”Why would you vote Yes?”Without going into detail we stood our ground.Interestingly my partner revealed she had voted yes which was a real shock to me as she was a committed No up until upto 2 weeks before.(She did concede her distaste for the timing of the offer for extra powers as promised by the clunking fist).
Anyway as the holiday progressed she began divulging elements of her journey from No to Yes.Trust me if she can be persuded then how we never won this is beyond me.
Anyway arrived back in Scotland yesterday and as we sat catching up on news events today the phone rang.Partner answered and it’s Mori carrying out a post referendum poll.
Well she answered all the questions in a confident manner including those centred around the alleged irregularities in the Postal Votes.Interested to know if anyone else has taken part?
I suppose what I’m saying in a roundabout way is if my partner can change from a solid No to voting Yes then we are well and truely on our way.With a brief nod to my Northern Soul background.Keep The Faith.
Morag
Heed is still hurting, so I’m I, let him be
Robert peffer,your description of what happened in fife matches mine
The no camp were there, no flags flying, that’s why we didn’t see them, they went under the wire, they were threatening oap’s while we were having a road show
Take note, no conspiracy but personal accounts from wingers
Can we do any thing about stuffed ballot boxes, no
Can we now do anything about the intimidation, no
Will I exploit both of these issues in the run up to to the ge?, fuckin right I will, gloves are of, I think our failing was being too nice
Time to put the boot in. The yes campaign was not non political, it was A political, but the general election is most definitely political
Stand back and watch the wingers politically motivated members in action
Ian brotherhood, who is the standing mp in your constituency?
Do you know if he smoked a joint or shagged anyone when he was under 16
Pay back time
These triumphalist unionist will not have the full weight of the MSM in May behind them, their arses are now hanging out of the back of their jeans, and I intend giving them a good kicking
Back to business,
http://t.co/Vl82WmFcmz
Ian honey – have they gone now? I want to discuss the weather, high heels and such like, plus Tartan Tory is the best thing I’ve ever seen in a Kilt – parts of him are outstanding.
I really think we should meet up at Inverwotsit again – I’m sure we can get the use of the pool for another midnight session.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/fife/liberal-democrats-accused-of-using-cupar-sheriff-court-closure-for-political-gain-1.406633
I’m wi that Schrodingers,
Even though Wood was rewarded with fracking licences he, on the denial of oil interview looked spooked, tired, stressed.
what have they got on him?
Never Mind what noises the Queen makes. I Prefer this Queen http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uKLMYZlbIb8 It aint over till the Queen stops Purring.
http://Www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/chiefs-named-and-shamed-in-health-board-cash-scandal-1.181189
Seeing all these great pics of the Edinburgh rally makes me wish I’d gone. I thought, if I have to work Saturday I’ll go on after work – I usually finish about half past eleven. But it wasn’t my turn on the rota and I thought I’d have a relaxing day as I’m still feeling very tired and sometimes down after last week.
It would probably have cheered me up no end if I’d gone.
Willie Rennie says:
“An attempt from nationalists to redefine home rule and federalism in an ultra-extreme form is perhaps understandable but it is not something that will create a sustainable settlement that will stand the test of time.”
Dear Willie
1) Please define ultra-extreme federalism.
2) You are wiser than you know. There is no sustainable settlement that will stand the test of time, except you know what.
To all Yesser friends and Wingers
this is what you will be up against http://forargyll.com/2014/09/scotland-what-next-situation-analysis/
A companion piece to http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/09/25/squaring-the-circle-what-no-means/
Steviemcb
If he is standing for election in May, I’ll find the dirt on him and turn it into a fuckin leaflet for the folk in Aberdeen
His duplicity re cracking should be highlighted at every chance
@Paula Rose –
We have been pining for you in O/T.
Sad, but true.
Tim Brett is Ming Campbell’s succesor, who is your unionist pic in May.?
If this is ok with Morag:D
http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/09/19/55-of-scottish-people-suffering-from-stockholm-syndrome/
My wee boy asked me tonight why can’t Scotland be friends with England, why can’t we just be friends and we look after our stuff and they look after theirs but we can still look after each other.. From the mouths of babes….
Anybody else spot this?:
http://tinyurl.com/k3z6udx
The fourth comment says it all.
You should hear the Irish laughing, not so much at us, more at the idea they want NI, Ok its us too.
https://archive.today/wiLOs
@heed – We have Jockholme syndrome 🙂
@kininvie –
I can’t even guess where you got that Willie Rennie quote from.
It’s not something he would ever be capable of thinking/writing. It’s the work of someone else, and it’s grim:
<"…it is not something that will create a sustainable settlement that will stand the test of time."
How would anyone even begin to unpick that single statement? It is rubbish.
And it’s written by folk who are supporting Rennie? They believe they can help him and his party with this nonsense?
Someone, somewhere, is being paid to produce this shite?
Incredible.
This thread shows why we need you back Rev.
Training Day – honey, do you need some direction?
@ben madigan – wow just wow;
The single aim must be defeating the SNP in the 2016 Scottish Election – whatever it takes. Nothing else will secure the union for the future.
Objective 1: Get whatever legislation or amendment is necessary through Westminster to ensure that any referendum with constitutional consequences run in any part of the United Kingdom must cross a threshold of two thirds of the vote – or 67% – to succeed. This can and must be done.
Objective 2: Obstruct the SNP from settling in to their purpose for the 2015 election campaign.
First mount an authoritative, weighty and sustained attack on the SNPs competence in government from within Holyrood – now – before the 2015 General Election – whatever it takes to do that.
Objective 3: [This is part of the overall focus of Objective 2.] Quickly establish a long-sta.y campaign on the streets and in the communities, providing the SNP with multiple distractions and multiple challenges.
Objective 4: Then stand the best possible candidates for Holyrood seats in 2016 and campaign with argument, purpose, focus and drive to succeed. Spare nothing; and win. No other outcome can be contemplated.
That’s why the Smurf is about to enter the Holyrood race.
IMO Objective 1 has to be declared illegal
@TD – Thank fuck we have the Rev as he has given us this forum to get together and discuss, disagree and debate each thread. Thank God we can still do that without fear or favour but still remembering there is only one moderator on WoS and he has the final say on each topic, not me, you or any other commentator so yeh we need the Rev as he is the one who allows us to comment on HIS blog
@Chic McGregor says: 27 September, 2014 at 4:48 pm:
“There is a guy on facebook with a video in which he has got a carrier bag full of YES marked ballot papers. Said he was tipped off to their whereabouts by a phone call.”
Forget it Chic – that guy is a wsell known chancer on YouTube. Everything he does is a fraud.
StevieMcB
That Grun picture is crying out for a caption:
“Nick, what are you doing down there?”
That’s interesting. It was pretty obviously a hoax, but I saw several people saying the guy homself had been hoaxed by whoever put the papers there.
If anyone here was at George ‘s Square today , is it true that the police told the organisers that -because it was a rally- that they should order the crowds to disperse as they hadn’t booked the Square and should have been paying £1500 fee to GCC ?
This came up on my FB page today but now I can’t find it !
@Morag says: 27 September, 2014 at 5:00 pm:
“It would be very easy to photocopy a postal ballot form and set up a scenario like that. I fear that’s what has been done.”
Stop right there, Morag. The guy is a well known chancer and has been up to many daft schemes on YouTube. Takes the micky out of the police forces, the court system, lawyers or anything else. He’s a real nutcase.
yesindyref2 says
That Grun picture is crying out for a caption:
Thank gawd that menu is hiding my?
I realise that now, Robert. It was obvious someone had photocopied a ballot paper and set up the hoax, the only quesion was who. As you say, it has become clear that it was the guy in the video himself.
The Sunday Herald was tweeting for him to come forward yesterday. I think they realised fairly quickly that it was bogus though.
A wee nawbag Rangers fan confirmed to me that the Police were confiscating the Saltire from Falkirk fans at Falkirk’s home game the other night. WTF what kind of country are we living in where the state police are denying any citizen the right to show their own country’s colours. Proud Scots elated to be subjugated..
Looking at the initial reaction to that video hoax on twitter, with multiple people instantly taking it as real and calling for a re-vote and declaring it was a validation of all their suspicions – does that maybe tell us a wee bit about the mindsets that are going around at the moment?
Everyone should read that article by @ben madigan 1203am
Yep! bladders full, time to piss on the poor
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/13/david-cameron-austerity-public-sector-cuts
@Morag – It was obvious someone had photocopied a ballot paper and set up the hoax
Can anyone prove that it’s a hoax?
It may well be a hoax, it may be a double bluff but there are a lot of folk who are uneasy about the whole process and I am not for one second calling in to question the WoS reps integrity but if it looks like a duck…
StevieMcB dear – do you know how to use the archive system?
@Paula Rose – https://archive.today/ax5c3
@Morag says: 27 September, 2014 at 5:10 pm:
“That way lies madness. The actual vote was fair, honest and transparent.”
Morag, I’ve been a political activist since I was at school and another thing I’ve done since I was 11 year old is volunteer work for those worse off than myself. I still do both. I’ve seen some of the election fiddles first hand.
Here’s a few. Labour were adept at visiting old folks homes, homeless people’s hostles, places for those with learning difficulties and such like. They carried with them application forms for postal votes. They, or someone else would follow up and, “help the poor victims fill in the the ballots putting what the person, (ahem!), instructed them to vote for. Then they hgelpfully saw that the envelopes got to the, (ahem!), proper place. Then there was the fraud of recently dead postal votes and the (Ahem!), strange addresses. Just about everywhere there are anomolies in street numbering. For example a several story block of homes that have been demolished and a anything from a single home to an industrial unit or even an open space. a garage or shop in its place. So several street numbers but no homes. An application for a postal vote for each missing house street number and another fraudulant vote(s) gained.
And yes people have been caught doing so in the past..
liz says:
28 September, 2014 at 1:12 am
Everyone should read that article by @ben madigan 1203am
Exactly. we are still here despite the MSM & unionist onslaught,lets play their game, they are mean,underhanded and lie a lot, i’m not suggesting we turn into them,but we cant let them run free ever again. turn the tables on them,expose their nasty habits.
@ian
re. Willie
BBC of course (no surprise there)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29393578
Thanks thanks liz, Paula Rose,i’ll learn it today ;),
“Magnificent Golden Balls David”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/13/david-cameron-austerity-public-sector-cuts
Remember David Cameron’s goal
is to create a culture of permanent austerity – for the underclass
and a period without limit of unrestrained wealth growth for the upper classes.
This is what 2 million people in Scotland voted for in the Referendum.
Their self-satisfaction at a job well done
reminds me of the Nazi High Command.
I feel sick.
These idiots voted no for this.
http://t.co/uhHF0FlvCu
A couple of weeks back I remember seeing Ronnie Biggs and the lads, Elvis, Lord Lucan and Robert Maxwell walking along the street carrying huge sacks, whistling Rule Britannia, well, Elvis was singing “ain’t nothing but a Pound, dawg”. I tried phoning the Penzance police but Gilbert just sang back to me “return to sender, address unknown”.
I forgot to mention that, didn’t seems strange at the time.
@molly 11:32 pm
I always say it’s not what they tell us is the problem, it’s what they don’t tell us is usually the dangerous bit. (For us not for them)
Your first para would be the MSM take on it, with a few caveats where needed.
The second para will be sealed away for 30 years in the governments archives, although will have been seen by some privy councillors and civil servants under the official secrets act and some industry insiders in the HOL
Totally corrupt and dishonest system covered up by MSM and BBC etc.
Robert, I know all that. One thing in a tight FPTP seat, different matter in a referendum. Also, councils made it fairly clear they’d been tightening up on that sort of scam.
But I never disputed that false registration was possible. Indeed I know it happened. It’s the biggest weak spot and it needs closing. I simply point out that 400,000 fake registrations isn’t a practical proposition.
The fact remains that the actual casting of the votes and the counting were fair and honest and transparent.
Damn, I answered one of them again, didn’t I!
Papadox
The other way round .
@molly 2:40am
Will look at it in the morning honey when I awake from my slumber, until then I will accept your opinion. Good night
@flux_capacitor
Thank you man, I needed that!
Looks like i have to update my photo to 45! been a while since i posted it seems.
That’s better! Crossing fingers!
Oh, change your avatar at gravatar.com.
All “powers” are garbage Scotland should concentrate on a devolved media. That should be the price.
For the hard of thinking. Fuck the bullshit. We should be control the BBC here.
We should control BBC Scotland from Scotland. And that should be the minimum of “powers” we should extract. All other “powers” are piecemeal.
Media is number one.
Morag: But it wasn’t my turn on the rota and I thought I’d have a relaxing day as I’m still feeling very tired and sometimes down after last week.
We are NOT here to discuss your personal day.
Grousebeater. I am not interested in your personal relationships. You have built up on line. Get it ?
Invisible troll: Get it
Snoresville. And your advice on BBC control is wee sma’ hours fascism. Go take a hike.
Croompenstein: A wee nawbag Rangers fan confirmed to me that the Police were confiscating the Saltire from Falkirk fans at Falkirk’s home game the other night.
That crosses the line. On what grounds do the police think waving a Saltire is provoking violence? Surely fans will resist the imposition, or wear a badge that can’t be removed?
Heedtracker – the Waterford Press article is a winner. I used the same expression in my polemic on George Galloway – he’s loathed by the British state but asks that we learn to live and love it.
Macwhirter, one of our honest journalists, has reverted to type on the Sunday Herald. He discusses federalism made indissoluble. It was always his hobby horse, and with independence sidelined for the time being, he’s flying his old flag once more, same one as Brown.
Mcwhirter has always been a gradualist.
Paula-Rose says
“Tartan Tory is the best thing I’ve ever seen in a Kilt – parts of him are outstanding.”
No yer no gettin a ride in his rally car. 😉
Robert Pfeffer has merit when ha says:
Here’s a few. Labour were adept at visiting old folks homes, homeless people’s hostles, places for those with learning difficulties and such like. They carried with them application forms for postal votes. They, or someone else would follow up and, “help the poor victims fill in the the ballots putting what the person, (ahem!), instructed them to vote for. Then they hgelpfully saw that the envelopes got to the, (ahem!), proper place. Then there was the fraud of recently dead postal votes and the (Ahem!), strange addresses. Just about everywhere there are anomolies in street numbering. For example a several story block of homes that have been demolished and a anything from a single home to an industrial unit or even an open space. a garage or shop in its place. So several street numbers but no homes. An application for a postal vote for each missing house street number and another fraudulant vote(s) gained.
I believe. Do not doubt the LABOUR PARTY when they know the constituencies of their majority vote. How many “traditional” labour voted no ? Postal votes ? They have it wrapped up ! Naive Yes activists need to wise up. politics my friends and then there’s POLITICS.
It was nothing to do with the Postal votes. It was the illegal intervention by Cameron, Clegg and Brown. 25% of NO voters changed their vote because of these clowns. Vote them out. Vote every Unionist politician of Scotland. Especially trougher, tax evading Brown. Get Fife flooded with WBB and a boat load up to Orkney/Shetland.
LibDem/Greens/landowners blocked the by-pass road in Aberdeenshire for ten years. Putting two hours on many people’s working day and costing the economy £Millions. Labour/Unionists in Aberdeen City voted against it for thirty years.
Thatcher secretly took the Oil revenues and spent them in London S/E building Canary Wharf and Tilsbury Docks etc. Thatcher cancelled a pipe line wasting £Bilions of Gas. Labour secretly buried the McCrone Report and spent the Oil revenues on illegal wars and tax evasion. The £500Billion Oil fund Scotland could have had. Helicopters falling from the sky because of lack of proper UK health and safety guide lines. BP the worst run company in economic history. Given licence to trade by handouts to Westminster and their associates.
Another illegal war brings poverty and deprivation to the Middle East. Westminster supports the most despot, absolute monarchy in the world.
A excellent readers comment from the Guardian
Rolfethecat
27 September 2014 8:39pm
There’s something to the “five stages of grief” observation. I feel it, and I see it in many of my friends. Our dream of having a country of our own, a country where we could prevent fracking, and new nuclear power stations, and preserve the NHS as a public body, and remove WMDs from our soil, and tackle child poverty and urban deprivation, and give our elderly better pensions, and not destroy lives in the Middle East, that has been shattered.
By the Labour party, acting as the loyal lieutenants of the Conservative party.
The Edinburgh agreement was trashed. Cameron refused to debate with Salmond, but hawked himself around foreign governments and celebrities and banks and big business, desperate to recruit as many talking heads as possible to threaten Scotland with destruction or schmooze it to bits, depending. The BBC was happy to amplify any scare story, or positive snippet for the No campaign, but refused to give any publicity to good news for Yes, even going so far as to refuse to report people complaining they’d been misquoted.
For months, I felt like a victim of domestic abuse. I was being metaphorically battered by what was coming over the airwaves. In the last two weeks it was like being on the wrong end of a seal clubbing. And still the opinion polls crept upwards for Yes. I remarked that if Scotland did vote Yes in the face of the barrage of terror, it would be an act of extraordinary bravery. I think that was about the time we were being told queues would be forming at the banks as people rushed to withdraw all their money, if a Yes was announced on the 19th.
It took the ultimate lie, to swing the vote to No. The fabled devo-max, which Cameron refused to allow on the ballot paper, was resurrected. Sort of. By this time, nobody seemed to remember the torrents of scorn heaped on that idea two years ago. Salmond’s consolation prize, they called it. He mustn’t have it. Losers should lose.
That seemed to be forgotten. Suddenly, No meant devo-max! Or did it? The No campaign’s loyal BBC acolytes dutifully called it that and said we were assured of it. The politicians’ words varied. One minute we’d almost have federalism, then perhaps it was only a timetable to implement the minimal powers already in the pipeline.
Whatever it was, it worked. Postal voters started saying they’d have voted No if they’d known that would bring dev-max. An electorate battered by years of scare stories, capitulated. Or a few hundred thousand of them did, anyway.
In the end, the young and middle-aged voted Yes regardless. The No majority was swung by the scared elderly, many of whom had been told that their state pensions would stop if there was a Yes majority. (Did any news outlet ever report that this was a categoical lie?) But we lost our country nevertheless.
And within a few days we find that fracking will go ahead under our homes, and the NHS is under threat after all, and mortgages will rise in any case, and we’re going to war in the Middle East, and devo-max – we can whistle for it.
So is it any wonder some people really do feel genuine grief? And what do Labour supporters do? They jeer.
But we know we’ve lost a battle, not the war. The big dark pit of despair turned out to have a trampoline on the bottom of it
Re: fracking.
I hope that this isn’t made into some huge issue that is top of the devo-max list.
From what I understand, the onshore fracking potential in Scotland is far more limited than the amount of oil and gas offshore.
Westminster could easily devolve the final planning decisions over onshore fracking to the Scottish government and hold it up as a major concession.
It’s not really that big a deal, compared to getting major job creating powers and the ability to compete…taxes, oil revenues, VAT, broadcasting, crown estate etc
@Onwards. Yes, I agree. My understanding is fracking is less of an issue in Scotland than elsehwhere. We have huge tracts of ancient gas free rocks. It shouldn’t become an issue when there are bigger fish to be caught.
Like a lot of people, I suspect they will back track on DevoMax onto DevoAWeeBitMore. Labour in particular are keen on this because it allows them to avoid the ‘English question’.
If they have English votes on English issues, then we need Full Fiscal Autonomy because otherwise it would be Taxation without Representation. Since Scotland pays such a large excess into London coffers, it would be in part OUR MONEY those English only MPs would be voting on and spending.
Planning laws for fracking in Scotland is lower in priority than the big fundamental constitutional questions.
@ Schrödinger’s cat
Thanks for that extremely good comment from the Guardian. I’ve kept it. It could be useful!
I’m going to suggest to Mellisa, the girl who organised the rally in Edinburgh yesterday, that not everyone does Facebook. There was a very large crowd there even though and I DID tell everyone on here about it!
@ galamcennalath
“Planning laws for fracking in Scotland is lower in priority than the big fundamental constitutional questions.”
but
It is a great scare story to disseminate in Morningside, Kelvinside, Aberdeen, and East Renfrew.
No more Mr Nice Guy.
@ Schroedinger’s Cat
Thanks for the Guardian post as I am in a real purdah period on unionist press and TV. Essentially SFA.
Anyone know who “Rolfethecat” is?
They may be amongst us as we speak?
We need a Ouija board.
I like that trampoline analogy.
The unionists should look to their own leaders, why refuse devo max on the ballot paper and bring britain so close to the edge and then offer it at the last minute?
I know the answer, we will get nothing from the unionists, that you can be assured, labours devo nano was a complete joke, as Stu rightly pointed out
but devo max was offered, not devo plus, and this means FFA. this is why wullie rennie is back tracking and calling for a resistance to an “ultra-extreme” form of devolution. It is FFA he is refering to.
never fear, we wont get anything like FFA in the negotiations. I hope the tories do renege on their promises, labour will die the death in May 2015, along with the libdems
But this betrayal and reneging by westminster will be the focus of our manifesto in May
FFA this will remove any questions of subsidy and prove one way or the other who is telling the truth, I’ll wager it isnt westminster.
Scottish Mp’s will be forced to tow the SNP MP’s party line and refrain from voting on english only laws. Indeed, the only thing left to vote on will be defence and foriegn affairs. The 57 MP’s will move to Calton hill and become the defacto upper chamber to Holyrood, they can vote on westminster defense issues electronically. In the case of major issues, like going to war, they would retain the right to attend the HOC for the debates
Notice how the issue of a referendum and or independence has been put on a back burner, at least until after may 2015, this will be a vote winner with those who wanted devo max and not independence. This will also give us 2 bites at the cherry. I beleive that the next stage from FFA to independence is such a small step any way that it will happen in time, probably the issue being forced by the EU referendum
I forgot to mention
introducing devo max at the last minute broke purda and undermines the result of the referendum if devo max is not delivered
Is Rolfethecat, Morag? Just wondering…accurate and articulate assessment of what we all can agree on, took place.
Haven’t seen Lesley-Anne about these last few days on here…hope you are well LA, missing your input…and ‘ahem’s’. 🙂
The focus of this group was getting a YES vote
It must now turn and focus on getting as many Indy MP’s elected in May, (SNP, Green, a monkey in a yes suit, i dont care which)
this is how we hold their feet to the fire.
This is a bit of a wandering post.
An ex collegue used to dissappear behind his desk periodically, roll out his prayer mat and make his devotions. He was the lovliest chap and we often talked about his experience living in London. He regularly used to express concern about the radicalisation of the local mosque which he no longer attended.
I couldn’t understand why the British state was permitting this activity. This was around the start of Iraq 2.
At the same workplace there was another individual who did attend the mosque. He became increasingly edgy. Hard to communicate with, a huge chip developed on his shoulder and he began have anger problems with those in his area. He also began to carry a knife. It wasn’t long before he was asked to leave.
8 years previously I had a late night conversation with a taxi driver born and brought up in the UK of Pakistani background who described how there was a battle starting and training was already underway in Pakistan.
There is a malaise in England which has been ignored. The population is so wrapped up in the consumerist dream that it fails to notice the suffering of those next to them. London is one of the fastest dynamic cities in the world. The individual is forced into a competitive treadmill of working and profit. Little attention is payed to the plight of those who struggle. It’s the place where someone goes to make something of themselves.
As long as the city functions its not important who is in power. Those in power make out they know what is going on, that they are attached to the pulse of the people.
How does the UK profit from this new war we have been forced into?
According to some reports the family of Jihadi John have been known to the authorities for a long time. They know his identity.
His grusome work has given Cameron ( Obamas PR Man in Europe) a mandate to take the UK into another round of destruction.
Aid workers and journalists, good people, sacrificed to justify this engagement, part of me believes that these peopleshould have been rescued.
IS/ ISIS/ISIL/ Levant, yes it needs to be addressed.
Perhaps that should have started years ago. UKok? Money men and careerist politicians in snappy suits purring at each other about how they are making history.
Tell that nonsense to the 7/7 victims and their families.
Perhaps the referendum should have asked if we are all ok about this new war just kicking off?
Doesn’t seem like Westminster will have too much time to worry about North Britain’s mumblings, now that there’s important people to kill.
BtP
Thanks for the Guardian post as I am in a real purdah period on unionist press and TV. Essentially SFA
yeah, Im still concerned about Mcwhirters comment about us being responsable for mobilising the No vote, I think he may have a point, I dont think that posting on CIF(no one in scotland reads cif anyway) and wings is responsable for this, I think it is Facebook, you have to deliberately go to the guardian and wings to read the comments but Facebook sends stuff to you from your friends whether you want it or not. I didnt see any BT posts on facebook from the people I know who voted no, and we know the the BT goons were out terrorising old women across fife, but they were in dark suits with no flags flying. we need to get the yes vote out again in 6 months but allow the no voters to go back to sleep, we should have a policy regarding facebook, although FB is organic and has a mind of its own, I have limited independence posts on my FB to known yes supporting friends only
Like BtP I boycott all MSM. But news from RT can be interesting though lacks a genuine Scottish perspective (like BBC). Here is a story of brave young single mothers in Newham. Evicted from their homeless shelter by the council, they occupy empty flats which the council hopes to sell to a property developer. They are told by Newham Mayor SIR Robin Wales, LABOUR , that they couldn’t afford to live in Newham just go away.
“The women had been forced to leave their hostel just over a year ago because of funding cuts. They were advised by council officers to move with their children to low-rent parts of Birmingham, 100 miles away, and Manchester, 165 miles away.”
That’s Labour for you.
http://rt.com/uk/189988-mothers-occupy-london-tower/
I agree with BtP. We need to highlight these news items which illustrate the duplicity and greed of Westminster politicians.
The fact is that YES failed to convince the majority C1 C2 DE socio economic classifications of Scotland.
Its these voters that said No and its these voters that give Labour in Scotland their power base. Its these voters that buy much of the teamGB media and its these voters that the BBC in Scotland target. As reluctant as I am to criticise YES campaigning, Blair Jenkins was another nice middle class man in a suit.
Approximated Social Grade with its six categories A, B, C1, C2, D and E is a socio-economic classification produced by the ONS (UK Office for National Statistics)
http://www.ukgeographics.co.uk/blog/social-grade-a-b-c1-c2-d-e
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
if David Cameron and Ed Milliband were both drowning and you only had time to save one of them………
what sort of sandwich would you make 🙂
Inv Hand: Mcwhirter has always been a gradualist.
No, you are incorrect. Federalism links Scotland to London rule. He was never a ‘gradualist’ for independence, In the last days of the debate he said he’d vote Yes only because there was no alternative.
Grouse Beater
McWhirter has always been a Federalist. At heart he a a lost soul, a real Liberal with no home to call his own.
He will clutch at any straw that offers that hope and probably will die without ever achieving that particular Paradise.
He is a Federal cultist.
Heedtracker: Blair Jenkins was another nice middle class man in a suit.
He certainly wasn’t inspiring.
The very best part of the campaign came exclusively from the grass roots, the same we see sustaining dedication. Others were too buttoned up or too scared to show passion.
The personality of the hack, David Torrance, epitomises the Nos for me.
BtP: He is a Federal cultist.
Chuckle … Aye, often derided by his fellow journos for daring to see our point of view.
I cannot tell you who Rolfe the Cat is but he and I had many a conversation on the Independent. He is a Scot and I think he lives here, he certainly had his finger on the pulse. I am pleased to hear that he continues the fight where most of us have given up. The English on these papers use any excuse to insult and belittle. I only wish some of our population could understand how little regard our neighbours have for us. I will admit I miss several posters on the Independent, mostly from the North of England, many of those from Southern climes are disgusting on the whole. I hate that I am now stateless, I will have to be because I will never refer to myself as Scots as that was high jacked by a load of disgusting Unionists, Proud Scots or what.
I was wondering if anyone has given a thought to putting out a leaflet in a few months addressed to those who voted NO, maybe asking if they were happy that they had been frightened and lied to so that Westminster could maintain control over the country’s finances. I would think after the Autumn Statement from Georgy Porgy would be an ideal time. They have to claw back money for this little adventure in the Middle East (yet again), we know they have ambitions on removing more welfare and I expect that all those frightened pensioners may find that they voted to be treated like scum, I really expect to see taxation increased on things like a second pension. loss of bus pass that will affect not only poor pensioners but those who regard it as the only perk they get. Only a thought!
Andy Murray wins the open in China and from 5 championship points down. Nothing reported by noble and honest bettertogether teamGB media.
What an incredible inspiration for Scotland.
Meant to say I want to see a SNP with more fire in it’s belly. I want to see those who have recently joined, sorting out the leadership. I want to see the end of this nicey nicey approach, it did not win converts. I despaired watching Alex on one of his last interviews, and I though he looked desperately tired and was on the back foot. When asked about the campaign and the nastiness, he should have said that all of the nastiness was one way, not agree that it was on both sides. Apart from Jim Murphy and the egg, how much more nasty was the other side. He should have asked them to provide proof but he didn’t. Blair Jenkins was another one who agreed that there was nastiness on both sides, Blooming hell, no there wasn’t, all you had to do was read a paper, or look at comments on twitter. NO were absolutely disgusting.
I also want to see more Greens, and I want the SSP in the Scottish Parliament, I want to see Labour reduced to nothing. I do think we need to get more than 6 SNP into Westminster and this has to be our goal. I do think this English Votes for English Laws, if proceeded with may do our job for us. Where will all those careerists go when there is no chance of a ministerial or Prime Minister position and how can they then claim we are better together.
Just wondering re this smith commission (lol,long grass)will consider broadcasting in Scotland,after all,we do pay for it quite handsomely. Do any of the parties plan to propose any broadcasting changes?
The personality of the hack, David Torrance, epitomises the Nos for me.
They were talking to their own GB. Torrance is a stuffed shirt and out of his depth out in the open and away from the office but he won all the same.
Try comparing Rev Stu Campbell and Torrance, eek!
Salmond could talk to the majority of Scotland that’s why he was monstered for years. Sillars and Sheridan did an incredible job too but for reasons other than politics they fell back a bit. God knows what inspired the Sillars day of reckoning stuff.
So who is going to take their place and do a better job and we all know now who.
https://archive.today/aGZL0
The running dogs are coming to get us.
heedtracker
I noted that in Murray’s speech after his victory he referred to what a terrible week he had just had.
I suspect he was talking about the abuse he (and his mother) have had from the lovely, fragrant unionists which has clearly been much greater than anything J K Rowling suffered.
The BBC’s contribution a few days ago was to try to force him into apologising and retracting what he had said, but could only get him to apologise for the way he had said it.
More disgraceful BBC, of course.
SNP boasting over 65,000 new members will need to rethink how it conducts its meetings.
Boring but mandatory ‘local constituency agendas’ won’t retain the energetic and the ideal, or the attention of the young. They want for separate and regular meetings to discuss plans of action and how better to engage the Nos.
Passion and an eagerness to get back to the fray doesn’t sit happily with the humdrum of membership business.
K1, yes.
JPJ2: More disgraceful BBC, of course.
I enjoyed your post. (And Heedtracker’s before it.)
I am pleased to admit I found the BBC a terrible place in which to work, and resigned without a pension.
There was a time BBC Scotland had its own education unit – I don’t think it was ever blessed with ‘department’ – anyhow, the first education wing in the UK, it was solely responsible for providing all sorts of programmes to schools on Scottish history, and serving us with examples of moral values and culture.
BBC London closed it down.
“Anyone know who “Rolfethecat” is?”
Its not Rolftheganger is it?
very good long term poster, who has been on here but only onceto my knowledge.
@ JPJ2, true dat. Here we go again. Lots of Scottish style questions boiling away like, who the hell is Lord Kelvin anyway, no one voted for this Lord of the realm.
So our triumphant BBC in Scotland masters instruct a woman who has been elected, to be a good girl in front of their appointee and I wonder what his mission statement actually is.
The corpse of this union staggers on like a zombie propped up by the BBC shills and the super rich of teamGb, that like to purr down the phone line too.
tick tock teamGB
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29392455
Alert reader Morag. 🙂
I’m sure Murray’s appears will meet with jeers next time he walks onto the Wimbledon court.
Helena, you’re thinking of someone else. Rolf the Ganger, maybe? I’ve never posted on the Independent.
(Rolfe is my online name in quite a lot of places, but the Guardian seemed to want a longer character string or something.)
Artist Peter Howson giving back his OBE. He says he watched the UKOK thugs with their nazi salutes attacking YES voters and enough is enough. Personally the fact that the BBC in Scotland teamGB propaganda machine covered up and protected their fellow unionists in George Square was just as appalling.
Dark days for all British media ahead.
@ Capella, 10:29am
“The women had been forced to leave their hostel just over a year ago because of funding cuts. They were advised by council officers to move with their children to low-rent parts of Birmingham, 100 miles away, and Manchester, 165 miles away.”
That’s Labour for you.
Cleansing London of the poor and disadvantaged seems to have become policy lately. Can’t see ’em, they don’t exist.
Also, HS2 is surely only a way of getting enough workers who can’t afford to live in London into the greater London area just a little bit faster.
Whatever London needs…
Grouse Beater
Blair Jenkins was and still is a BBC suit. I do not mean that he was a unionist plant just that his business culture was formed by years of immersion in BBCLand.
Maybe it was thought his past connection and understanding of the BBC ‘culture” would have given the Yes side an edge, that they would not otherwise have had.
If so that was, in retrospect, a mistake, as four key factors were missing in that analyses, McQuarrie, Boothman, the pro union all pervasive culture within BBC News Scotland imposed by the afore and a centrally led ex officio dirty tricks stream feeding into BBC Scotland News and liaising with elements in our “free” Press.
Yes was manipulatively outgunned.
I was talking some 18 months ago to someone who was dropping all sorts of BBC and London political names into conversations at a lunch table. He said that Devo Max would be wheeled out at the last minute an No would win. Honestly.
This man was not a BBC employee but a well placed member of the Labour / Tory dinner set in London and it was eighteen months ago. I even e-mailed the Rev with that at the time. But, it was just me and someone, whose name I cannot remember although he held senior strategic positions at an English University and a major German one, concurrently.
If there is truth in the allegations of blocs of voters slips with alternative code and blanks then we could see a possible route for some very special people to nudge a vote result. Big if but not so big as more stuff creeps out.
The target is not the 45, although wee need a strategy to hold them, but the 15% or so who were frightened or manipulated before and just befure the Referendum.
All that is predicated on a Judicial Review not being initiated in the next few weeks.
Just maybe.
The personality of the hack, David Torrance
his father voted YES
PM pledges Holyrood will raise all its own money
David Cameron has today appeared to commit himself to giving the Scottish Parliament the powers to raise and spend ‘all of its own money’, moving far further than the devolution proposals previously set out by his party colleagues in Scotland.
Interviewed in the Sun on Sunday, David Cameron said “if we get this devolution, we can reduce the relevance of the Barnett formula because a Scottish parliament will be raising and spending all of its own money.”
The Prime Minister was then interviewed on today (Sunday’s) Marr programme where he made clear that he expects to fall out with Labour because of English Votes for English Laws during discussions on a future constitutional settlement – despite today’s Scotland on Sunday reporting that the two parties are close to making a private deal on more powers for Scotland.
The comments come as a number of newspapers report a clear desire for the devolution proposals to be significantly enhanced. Dave Watson from Unison warns in the Sunday Times that “if the ‘change’ mantra is to be credible, Labour needs to be more radical in its approach to the [Smith] Commission.”
The Sunday Times also reports that the Tories’ Lord Forsyth believes that the Westminster Parties ‘must go well beyond the vow of extra tax and welfare devolution that they proposed days before the vote.’
Meanwhile Rick Nye, head of polling company Populus which conducted internal polling for the No campaign, revealed that the promise of substantial additional powers was critical to the outcome of the referendum, writing in the Sunday Times that “to turn these voters away from Yes, it took the guarantee of extra powers for the Scottish Parliament.”
Commenting, SNP MSP Annabelle Ewing said:
“While David Cameron appears to be under the bizarrely mistaken impression that Scotland is subsidised by the rest of the UK, his apparent commitment to full tax-raising powers for the Scottish Parliament today is a welcome one.
“It is a development that moves him far closer to meeting the aspirations of people in Scotland than his party colleagues have previously signalled.
“It suggests that David Cameron has recognised that the powers that come to Scotland must go substantially beyond what has previously been tabled.
“The fact is that as the No campaign’s own pollsters have made clear, the vow of substantial more powers was critical to the outcome of the referendum.
“The people of Scotland – whether they voted Yes or No – expect to have their say on the shape of Scotland’s future. They must have their opportunity and there should be no place for backroom deals between political parties that bypass public opinion.”
David Cameron’s interview in the Sun on Sunday can be viewed on page 18 and 19.
Reports of a deal between Labour and the Tories emerging on additional powers for Scotland can be viewed at http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/smith-commission-labour-and-tories-close…
Lord Forsyth’s reported viewed on additional powers can be viewed on page 1 of today’s Sunday Times.
Dave Watson’s comments can be viewed on page 25 of today’s Sunday Times.
Rick Nye’s comments can be viewed on page 25 of today’s Sunday Times.
Once all the referendum heat dies down in a couple of months, all these new recruits could be used to canvass streets, even allocate streets to specific individuals to look after, and find out why people voted yes and more importantly no.
Instead of re-covering the postal vote theories day in day out, IMO we would do much better if we concentrated on what to do for the next two years. We soon have a UKGE15 to fight and the SE16 afterwards.
We want independence, so learn from the Ref (the good and the bad) and get on with winning it.
The link from Ben Madigen + Liz about the situation analysis from the “Forargyll” site is something every Wosser and Yesser should read. This should start to concentrate a few minds.
Make no mistake about what will come our way, FMQs will be a battlefield and the media will be like the end days of the Indy campaign.
Here’s the archived version:
https://archive.today/8C5FR
@Morag says:28 September, 2014 at 2:07 am:
“Robert, I know all that.”
I suspected you did.
“I know it happened. It’s the biggest weak spot and it needs closing. I simply point out that 400,000 fake registrations isn’t a practical proposition.
That, though, is not the point, Morag. the point is there was always going to be a percentago of genuine NO voters so the point is not the 400,000 but the extra percentage of false NOs added plus the othe factor in the postal vote scams is that anyone being, “Helped”, to cmoplete a postal vote who actually voted YES is removed by the, “helper”.
The fact remains that the actual casting of the votes and the counting were fair and honest and transparent.
Now you actually cannot claim or prove all of that as you only witnessed the casting of votes and counting of same at the actal polling station but not the casting of postal votes around every corner of the constituency. Some of which would have NO activists, “Helping”, people cast a postal vote in their own home then, “helping”, them even more by posting, (or not), it for them.
The point being that no one knows how many fake postal votes were made. No one knows how many helped postal votes for YES were destroyed or how many who thought they had voted YES were filled as NO and as I pointed out it is a double whammy as the scam involves extra NOs and lost YES’s. Think of it as a percentage of the total postal votes cast. I’m not a conspiracy theorist – I’m a realist.
Nicola’s speech in the observer.
https://archive.today/l9zNV
@
Nana Smith says:
Two missing words
Oil revenues.
@ Robert Pfeffers
Agreed
OK, this time I really do give up.
If the last minute vow by Gordon Brown broke the purdah rule then why isn’t the SNP declaring the referendum null and void?
Also could anyone explain why Scottish Labour didn’t support independence? I would have thought that labour would have done well as the govt of choice for many people in an independent Scotland.
Sorry if my questions are obvious but I am a political nube. I gave up on politics after Blair followed Thatcher as it was all too depressing.
@Bugger (the Panda)
Exactly. As if we ever thought it would be any different.
The idea is to completely rape Scotland for the benefit of London, bankers and corruption.
Who is Lord Smith of Kelvin? Here’s an archive link to the BBC bio (Wikipedia misses out some interesting details)
https://archive.today/7fAzR#selection-749.0-749.112
“Lord Smith is also a former BBC governor, head of the Broadcasting Council for Scotland and chairman of the BBC’s Children in Need.”
and
“For more than a decade he was chairman of global engineering company the Weir Group until stepping down in 2013.”
So BBC and Weir group. A safe pair of hands.
I have wanted Independence for Scotland since I was 11. But I have never taken that step of joining the SNP, until today that is.
I am now proud that I can say, I am one of the thousands of new members that is sending the message down South – Don’t f’ck with Scotland.
No mention of media bias or unionist lies….
http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140928/193389073/Expert-Scottish-Referendum-Became-School-for-Democracy.html
I see Newsnet NNS, have opened their site to instant commenting.
Well, well, well.
They woke up?
Morag
I would try praying top St Jude.
She could help you, maybe.
They said in advance they would do that at close of poll.
One scot
I think you mean
Nemo me impune lacessit
Don’t fukc wi’ me
https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins Everyone knows this character on CiF. If Bettertogther Slovenia is at the heart of the Lord Smith thing, its going to be a disaster for Scottish devo.
Nana, this confirms how close we were or more accurately that we actually won the referendum, why? Because they would not be this keen to ‘devolve’ what they consider to be ‘extensive new powers’ on the back of ‘the settled will of the people’.
They are a shower of conniving bastards. We should not ‘settle’ and tie our hands for the sake of them not losing face. The No’s are waking up, they too saw the result, they know that if near half the population voted yes; family, friends, neighbours, non party affiliated et al, that there is a reason why they did. It’s up to us to keep at them, debunking, showing them the truth about the media, and more than anything normalising independence.
Anything less than independence is short changing the future generations.
@K1
Agreed! Independence all the way. No half measures and no more having to subsidise the England, Wales & Ireland.
Above all no more supporting shite in the HoL
Staggering hypocrisy from Labour in Wales. It’s truly unbelievable how all kinds of rabid NO’s are now going oh but it could have been good for us too.
https://archive.today/M6wPe
@Bugger (the Panda)
Dippy toes.
@Heedtracker
Soon as I saw the clown Tomkins name on the Smith list I knew its doomed before it even starts.
That man has serious issues, his hatred for the SNP and Alex Salmond is bordering on madness.
@BtP
I know others who thought that the Unionists would pull a rabbit out of the hat at the last moment, as did Lord Home in 1979. It seems ridiculous that anyone believed it but then I don’t watch BBC or read the Daily Mail/Record/Express etc.
Again illustrates the power of controlling the media. Besides FFA we need control of the media and if Westminster keeps defence then Trident still has to go. They will be more temperate in warmongering if the collateral damage isn’t going to be Scotland.
@Nana Smith I don’t think devolved tax raising powers is anywhere near Devo Max. It just means they reduce the Barnett block grant and we pick each other’s pockets to make up the shortfall.
No Thanks (to coin a phrase).
BBC & MSM Protest VI… starting at 2.00pm
There is fraud at every election but the system almost always prevents a false total result.
I suspect the motives of those who continue with this nonsense. The fraud was not in the casting or counting but in the decision making process of individuals. They were lied to endlessly by a cynical no campaign and eleventh hour promises were given and the best we can do in the short term is ensure they are kept to their promises.
@ BtP, 12:54pm
@
Nana Smith says:
Two missing words
Oil revenues.
Without the oil revenues, the rest is a poor package. FFA is a must, but, unlikely.
Also, on Sunday Politics today, William Hague let this slip out: “Pacts don’t work in the British political system”.
He did look uncomfortable afterwards having realised what he had just said, but, this is the guy who is going to sort Scotland for the PM, isn’t he?
One Scot @ 1.04pm
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit – exactly.
Bugger the Panda and Nana – above
Of course it’s oil – that’s virtually all Westminster had to run up and now continue it’s ‘borrowing’ – and why we’re into the Third Oil ‘War’ – after all ISIL/S appeared to be doing quite well flogging oil to their advantage and we can’t have all that particular “pooling and sharing” if the US etc. aren’t benefactors – whose oil is it? Not for one second am I condoning the horrors but what depth of perversity is it to bomb those (notforgetting ‘collateral’ deaths of the innocents) who we armed and once actively encouraged. Mr Cameron etc. said this bombing is necessary to protect the UK from the “global threat” of ISIL/S – well it will be a threat now?
Excuse me rambling – I’m still hurting.
So they do “give” Scotland income tax devo. Scots oil and gas revenues still head to London to be invested in England as per.
https://archive.today/gUvhm
@Heedtracker
That’s because Plaid are getting more support, same as SNP up here. Labour running scared methinks… aw diddums.
Carwyn Jones a pal of Lamonts and just as useless. She does love to quote him does she not?
@Clarinda “Excuse me rambling – I’m still hurting”
We all are Clarinda, betrayal is a sore that won’t heal quickly. At first I was a mess felt like a death in some ways but now I’m bloody angry and getting angrier by the day.
I am no longer getting angry
I’m getting even, I believe we can take Ming and crash Gordon’s seats
We have an expression in fife
Some say the deil is deid an’ buried in Kirkcaldy
In May 2015, he will be
@galamcennalath says: 28 September, 2014 at 9:07 am:
“My understanding is fracking is less of an issue in Scotland than elsehwhere.”
Oh! Yes it is and I’ll give you a couple of facts to back up my claim. Way back the UK government built the new town of Glenrothes. This town was to accommodate the workers for a new super-coal-mining complex. They envisaged bringing in massive modern coal-cutting machinery that operated almost unaided across long coalfaces.
That super-pit idea was abandoned due to the actual geological state of Scotland’s coal seams. There were no long unbroken coal-faces in Scotland. They are fractured and broken and run every which way with many different angles and faults. These allow water seepage, gas seepage, flooding and the same conditions will face any form of, “Fracking”. Attempting to drill horizontally to get to the gas will have to go through these changing levels and cannot fail to have gas and water contamination into all those faults and fissures.
I live in an ex-miners cottage that is now surrounded by new-build housing schemes. Every one of those schemes has problems of contamination, drainage, flooding and subsidence. There has been commercial mining around these parts for over 200 years and a history of mining since before the Reformation. No one knows where all those old workings are and there are no settled seams across the entire central belt of Scotland. There is no way that fracking can assure not to allow seepage of water, gas and newly introduced chemicals between all those fractured and higgledy piggledy seams. It is a disaster waiting to happen and is bad enough already.
TEST
Greg hempiil just joined the snp,
Wouldn’t it be great if all 1.6mill joined
We wouldn’t need to leaflet or canvass again, wwe could just send them an email
Quality
I am already starting to get deeply cynical about this Smith Commission. I see people are saying he is ex BBC, Weir Group. Is that correct? He just needs to have worked at Standard Life to complete the farce. Tories and Labour are going to do a deal and it be going to be awful for Scotland. Ruth Davidson is crowing that it will be a good deal for the centre-right….I just watched Sunday Politics Scotland programme.
BBC Scotland are utterly, utterly shameless. They are now framing the debate by saying the more powers would not create jobs here, so what is the point anyway!
I am beginning to wonder if there is any point whatsoever in the SNP being part of this fiasco. We are not going to get anything close to Devo max.
So from one complete and utter UKOK fraud to another. Read only if you have a strong stomach, as Wilson of Labour grovels to our masters appointed Lordship of Kelvin, who noone voted for, but why let something annoying like democracy get in the way of Scottish governance?
https://archive.today/czBXR
I think Wilson fancies himself as a hatchet man, which is fair enough but he’s going after Scottish democracy, not just settling scores with those who voted for it.
“Despite having just resigned, he threatened he would hold the leaders of the three UK parties “to the fire”. He should calm down and put his slippers on. His services as a toaster are not required. Lord Smith of Kelvin is a more effective guardian of commitments made, and does not need ugly language to prove it.
All the Nationalists confirmed with their petulance is that they are wholly dependent on a betrayal narrative. Somebody always has to have done something to Scotland that they are entitled to whip up indignation about. In fact, there is not the slightest evidence anyone who made promises intends to do anything other than honour them.”
Did anyone seriously think this commission would deliver anything for Scotland?
I hope they do renege on their vow, it wil make winning all the mp’s seats all the easier,
A holyrood manifesto for another referendum and or separate vote in the eu referendum will be justified
@ Robert Peffers, 1:38pm
It is a disaster waiting to happen and is bad enough already.
Re Fracking. I agree entirely. I had ready a post in answer to Galamcennalath and Onwards about the priority of fracking discussions. The other “devo-whatever-they-want-to-give-us” issues won’t happen until after the GE, if ever, but the fracking issue is upon us now.
Like BtP, I have no problem scaring the wits out of the “we’re all right jacks” in their leafy suburbs about the potential drop in house values, insurance problems and all the attendant environmental catastrophes which could come with fracking.
@Muttley79 We were promised “Home Rule”, “Federalism”, Devo Max” and that is what swung the vote back from YES to NO. We get Home Rule, Federalism or Devo Max or we have another vote. They have till end October to publish their proposals. Happy Halloween. I think we should have parties scheduled.
New independence friendly forum just popped up.
http://www.lionrampant.scot
Followed, of course, by bonfire night.
Everythings ok, this survey proves it.
http://rt.com/uk/190648-brits-happier-economic-progress/
BtP says
“I see Newsnet NNS, have opened their site to instant commenting”
Huh and I thought they had just taken a shine to me
cheers Jim 🙁
@muttley 79
only just starting to get cynical? 🙂
Whats up wi the site
@ cynicalHighlander says:
28 September, 2014 at 1:20 pm
Dippy toes.
Just making sure that the don’t ban before I really start posting.
Let’s face it – all of the Sirs/lords etc are part of the British establishment as are all of the British Institutions, EC, BBC.
We will get nothing from these people.
I also think of the devo max option we must get full control of everything except, for the moment, foreign affairs and defence, including at least extra funding from oil.
I do think the conservatives might go for that, their main concern has always been, Coulport, Trident without that they can’t ‘sit at the table with the big boys’.
The Labour in Scotland lot will try to put all of us back in our box, there aim is their expenses and the chance to pretend they have power.
If we do not get maximum control then we push for indy ref being null and void due to broken promises to the soft Yessers.
Having lots of trouble posting. Anyone tell me why I have to re-enter name tag and e-mail every time I refresh.
Anyone else having problems getting visuals from independence tv live? I’m trying to watch the demonstration at Pacific Quay.
OT.. I have just purchased online today’s copy of the Sunday Herald. Like many I was unwilling to subscribe to the weekday Herald and can’t anyway afford a large subscription amount. Now it is possible just to buy one copy for the same price as the paper one. I think this is an excellent idea, and for me, very handy as I am disabled and find going out just for a newspaper a bit of a chore.
Let’s support the Herald….. One week at a time. Here is the link. http://bit.ly/1spQya0
@Helena Brown
Meant to say I want to see a SNP with more fire in it’s belly. I want to see those who have recently joined, sorting out the leadership.
I am not sure what else the SNP leadership could have done in the last 10 years. In 2004 SLAB and the Lib Dems were still in coalition in Holyrood. In 2007, the SNP were elected to national office for the first time in its history. In 2011 the SNP won a majority in a system that was designed to prevent them from doing so. In also meant that there would be a referendum on independence. Sure, there was mistakes made in the referendum campaign, and lessons learned can be taken on into the future. However, I think we need to concentrate more on getting a better balanced media, than sorting out a successful SNP leadership.
@ Mariaskid says:
I pay in Euros, €0.89 or about 60p
@ Mariaskid
I use PressReader on my tablet.
Are you buying direct from The Herald?
Natasha
Nothing on Live thingy for me, but 11 followers also watching a blank screen.
@Natasha says:
Anyone else having problems getting visuals from independence tv live? I’m trying to watch the demonstration at Pacific Quay.
It will come up when the camera man arrives on scene he’s a busy boy is Del.
CH
Del down the Barras flogging dodgy videos?
Will be interesting to see if Smith Commission will genuinely look at Devo Max or Federalism.
The easy option for Smith is to take the Tory option.
If I were the SNP (haven’t joined, still cant decide between them and the SSP), I would be pointing out NOW the loss of Barnett will be devastating unless we get hold of all income streams that currently go to Westminster.
The Tories know this and are only offering it because its a backdoor way of reducing public spending and forcing the privatisation of the NHS and Scottish Water.
@
I don’t know about that looks can be deceiving though.
My Slovene girlfriend. Pulled from Lord Kelvin’s newest totally unelected unionist decider of my country’s future twitter account, but this vid’s interesting in that every single thing Prof T says can’t happen with a Scottish independence in his speech, actually will happen with THE VOW devo max, taxation and welfare to Scotland.
Because of the NO voting for the Brown devo/federation stuff, Scotland will be in a currency union but separate economies, we will have legal share of every UKOK asset, we will have Bank of England seats and we will have UK military defence and all of it so that unionists can keep a giant union jack flying over Scotland.
But this is also exactly why THE VOW devo max is just not going to happen and Scotland will be lucky to have even air rifle legislation powers.
Have a listen to rule Britannia fraud in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqpQclCnb6s
Wee Alex
Agreed re SNHS and Scottish Water, not the least for fracking water in Englandshire, because they have droughts down there and thus need our water to frack in the Home Counties. Scottish Water presents a nice little earner eh, my son?
Unionist, would sell their granny for the tallow.
@Shrondingers Cat
Ming Campbell is retiring and I cannot see Gordon Brown standing again. Both are heading for the House of Lords.
@Capella
We cannot go for another referendum in the short term. We have to be absolutely sure (or as sure as we can possibly be) that we are going to win the next time. SLAB and Tories are already saying that Brown’s promises/the vow were only campaign rhetoric. The conditions are not anywhere near what we need them to be, in terms of media support, development of the independence movement.
They are going to do a deal with each other which will see Scotland get full income tax, and a few minor welfare powers. That will be all we get. It is just as Rev Stu said it would be. We are not going to get control over oil revenues, the Barnett formula will either be cut or scrapped, and we are going to be screwed big time. I hope the SNP see clearly what is going to happen, and either pull out, or stay in, co-operate, and then say they completely disagree with the outcome that is being cooked up by SLAB and the Tories.
Expect new wave of oily, smarming from the BBC, trying to big up the newspapers, starting with a programme about the Sunday Post. So we can appreciate how good they are.
Adding to their “we are utter creeps” portfolio, started in the programme, “How the Vote was won”.
I bit the bullet and joined the SNP Wee Alex.
Better chance of Westminster seats.
You can always join and resign after Westminster GE to be free to campaign for Holyrood GE in 2016?
re Lord Smith of Kelvin – he was Chairman of Weirs when the company was involved in bribery in the Middle East. Weirs eventually paid a £14 million fine and the press release stated that Lord Smith regretted that this [illegal] activity had gone on in Weirs. It reminded me of the scene in Casablanca when Capitaine Renault says that he is shocked, shocked that gambling is going on.
@Natasha
I thought I would give the Smith Commission a chance. I was not aware of Lord Smith’s background, ex BBC, Weir Group, in the Lords etc. You cannot get anymore unionist than that. This means we are going to get completely screwed.
@Liz
You are right. We are not going to get anything from this commission, it is another Calman, only this time it might have much worse effects. Iain Macwhirter is kidding himself if he thinks we are going to get anywhere near federalism. This has all the hallmarks of a British establishment hatchet job on Scotland, produced by Labour and the Tories. I really do wonder what the SNP are hoping to get out of this. We are never going to get Devo max, or even close to it, through an unelected Lord’s commission.
A consultative referendum is on the cards for these proposals yes/no.
@schrodingers cat says: 28 September, 2014 at 10:01 am:
“The unionists should look to their own leaders, why refuse devo max on the ballot paper and bring britain so close to the edge and then offer it at the last minute?”
When are people in Scotland going to recognise the truth of what the real situation of this fake United Kingdom actually is? Here are ten simple questions for you to answer. Perhaps they might open your eyes to what Westminster is doing to us all.
10 WEST FIFE QUESTIONS
1. Who elects the First Minister of Scotland?
2. Who elects the First Minister of Wales?
3. Who elects the First Minister of Northern Ireland?
4. Who elects the First Minister of England?
5. Who elects the Prime Minister of The United Kingdom?
6. Where is the Parliament of Scotland situated?
7. Where is the Parliament of Wales situated?
8. Where is the Parliament of Northern Ireland situated?
9. Where is the Parliament of England situated?
10. Where is the Parliament of The United Kingdom situated?
The Answers to Questions 4 & 5 indicate that there is no elected parliament of England and thus no elected First Minister of England. Answers 9 & 10 tell you that The Parliament of England and the Parliament of the United Kingdom are one and the same and all of the United Kingdom voters elect the United Kingdom Parliament but no one elects the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom except the elected Members of his/her own party. Yet that, only elected as a member of the United Kingdom Parliament, is chosen by his/her own party as not only the head of the United Kingdom Parliament but as the head of the unelected Parliament of the Country of England.
Yet here you all are debating on this forum whether this, unelected by anyone in Scotland person, should have the power to rule over us in Scotland. Open your eyes – this is an unelected de facto Parliament of the Country of England doubling up as the Parliament of the United Kingdom reluctantly devolving England’s powers to Scotland and thus retaining the country of England’s powers over Scotland. Not only that but he is now about to rub our noses in it by preventing our properly elected Scottish Members who are properly elected to the United Kingdom Parliament from voting on matters HE reserves for the unelected parliament of the country of England that is devolving England’s powers when and where he pleases.
Are you blind? It is an unelected Parliament of England with 533, unelected as such, de facto Parliament of England members dictating to Scotland, and even deciding the Scottish Block Grant. The Parliament of England and the Parliament of the United Kingdom are one and the same. Largely dictating to the properly elected Scottish parliament how they are allowed to spend the block grant they decide to give you. I’ll ask again : –
Where is the elected Parliament of England and how is it funded?
I’ll even answer it for you : –
There is no Parliament of England for, as England is directly funded as the United Kingdom and the running of England is by the United Kingdom Parliament, the United Kingdom parliament & the Country of England Parliament are one and the same. No kind of devolution is acceptable while England has no properly elected parliament of her own and her parliament is not outside that of the UK Parliament.
@muttley 79
I think possibly the SNP has to be seen to be considering it, so that they can walk away from it with heads held high when even the numpties who voted no work out that it’s a crock of shite. They have to play a slightly different game from what we might like them to do just now. In the end, our job is to work on the ground to get as many Yes supporting candidates as possible elected to Westminster. Anything else is secondary.
@Robert Peffers
I’ve just picked my head up off the floor! 🙂
@Mariaskid
Thanks Maria have just registered and am enjoying the read.
“Yet here you all are debating on this forum whether this, unelected by anyone in Scotland person, should have the power to rule over us in Scotland”
no I not, I well aware of the situaton, so is the rest of scotland now,
I, Like natasha, am working on how to get as many indy MP’s elected in May 2015, everything is secondary to that, this is how we hold their feet to the fire, I dont believe westminster has any intention of honouring its Vow, indeed, i hope it doesnt, it will make convincing nos much easier.
if we fail to win big, then all of this will wither on the vine and we will be left to contemplate the injustices you so correctly pointed out for the rest of our lives.
if we gain FFA, and find out exactly how much scotland contributes(i dont believe the ONS based GERS figures) Independence will be a certainty,
what are you planning on doing?
Nuttley79 says:
28 September, 2014 at 2:30 pm
@Shrondingers Cat
Ming Campbell is retiring and I cannot see Gordon Brown standing again. Both are heading for the House of Lords.
I am well aware of that, i.ve already been posting links to articles on here for others in YESNEF about Tim Brett,(and his shady past) Mings replacement. the fact they are both going is another reason for us to be hopeful of a victory in these seats
SNP membership now at 70,000
“Too wee and Too poor” – we will be so long as we allow London and rich businesses to profit from our resources
https://twitter.com/Independent_SCO/status/516222744770641920/photo/1
Nana, how do you know? \
Tweet from whom?
@Bugger (the Panda)
From No Red Tories….see here
https://twitter.com/Independent_SCO
I compiled a few videos of Craig Murray in full flow setting out the facts, as he remembers them. In light of the, “New” campaign in the Middle East there must be doubts in the minds of many as to the real motivation behind the commitment of the UK to support of the USA in it’s efforts. Noteworthy is the absence of Germany, Italy and the country with the largest land army in NATO, Turkey. The videos present another, less heard of perspective and are useful in that respect.
http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/28/craig-murray-ex-british-ambassador-a-lone-voice-in-the-political-wilderness/
Sunday Herald report on the Constitutional Commission
https://archive.today/aSGHN
SC, it’s not nice to rename Muttley as Nuttley. He’s no nuttier than the rest of us. 🙂 A minute ago I couldn’t find the Rev’s new post and seriously thought I was losing my marbles.
Re the relevant importance of fracking as an issue right now.
Yes, it’s important, yes, it’s good fodder for our own project fear. However, let us not forget what just happened.
Before campaign, umpteen surveys showed Scots split roughly in three. Those who supported independence, those supporting FFA/DevoMax, those who wanted the same or less devolution.
AS & SNP played a blinder by keeping DevoMax off the ballot.
10 days before the vote Yes were ahead. Enough DevoMax supporters had been persuaded Yes was the way to get more powers. BT panicked, broke purdah and put DevoMax back on the table. It worked for them, it was always destined to work when they used it.
The critical thing now, I believe, is for everyone on the Yes side to hound them relentlessly on what they promised.
They will probably fail to deliver. Good. That shows everyone who switched that they made the wrong decision. They should have stuck with independence. DevoMax Is probably not coming.
Then in 2015 & 2016 elections Unionists will pay a heavy price for their treachery. It’s then game on for another Indy Referendum.
If we get distracted on any detail, any individual issues, the big picture of proving that treachery to the soft voters who switched gets lost.
R Peffer
Open your eyes
Are you blind?
When are people in Scotland going to recognise the truth of what the real situation of this fake United Kingdom actually is?
Who are you speaking too? You think I am unaware of the situation? I joined the SNP when i was 14 and have spent the last 36% trying to convince everyone else of the same arguements, with 45% of the population now agreeing with me, I think I have done a pretty good job.
You might want to tinge your comments with less of a patronising tone,
Who do you think you are? Rameses the Great?
Come back Rev. and save this site from all the trivial shite being spouted on it. There appears to be an incestuous clique of bores now dominating it.
@galamcennalath – according to Lord Ashcroft 25% of No voters did so for more powers.
25% of 55% = 13.75% + 44.7% = 58.5% for Yes or FFA.
Therefore if these new powers are not forthcoming – and they have to be proper powers not some useless fudge where we end up paying more tax for less – indyref2.
Natasha
a joke on the miss spelling of my name……..check again
@schrodingers cat
I did notice that, actually, but didn’t realise you were returning the favour! Obviously not as bright as I thought I was.
I am out of here if you ladies are having a handbag fight.
Muttley do not get me wrong, I like all of the SNP leadership but they were on the back foot all the time through out this referendum and this must stop. I do not want Nicola going into negotiations with the Rule Britannia lot and be in the same state. This of course is not helped in anyway by the fact that 55% of the population gave away the only hand they had. It may help that the membership is up, this may be the best hand they could get. It may be enough to frighten them once more that the 45% are not sitting still for it.
Mostly I want them off the back foot.
The snp has no choice but to agree to join the commission, indeed it’s failure will be pinned on the snp regardless
Their failure to live up to their own set in stone time table will be grist for us to grind during the election campaign
Does anyone think they can cobble together anything by jan?
@Helena Brown
They were on the back foot because we have reached a stage we had not been at before. Unfortunately we had no real answer to the bombardment by the MSM/No campaign in the last few weeks, and the BBC went into overdrive. That we still do not have even a single national daily newspaper that supports independence is astonishing. This allows the conditioning of the people here to go on and on. This needs to be rectified ASAP imo.
By the way, this website is playing up something terrible. Comments take ages to appear. I presume it is still under attack, despite the loss of the independence referendum.
Whatever is decided on by Lord Kelvin and co still has to get passed the Commons and Tory boys have already said it won’t happen. Crash knew that too.