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Wings Over Scotland


Brush strokes

Posted on November 19, 2016 by

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    1. 19 11 16 07:56

      Brush strokes | speymouth

    270 to “Brush strokes”

    1. cynicalHighlander says:

      Slabstains the floor.

    2. Willson, LL.B says:

      “Let’s see May get out of that one!”. “Brexit means Brexit”, what the f*** does that mean? Answers in a 100 page plus UK Supreme Court judgement perhaps…

    3. Robert Louis says:

      Great cartoon.

      Labour this week showing yet again that when the chips are down, they run and hide. They continually say they stand for things, yet when they have to vote, they either abstain or vote against the very thing they say they stand for.

      Labour in Scotland, our red tory friends, stand for nothing. They are truly vacuous. Only this week Kezia has been mouthing off about how she wants a ‘peoples railway’. The facts however show, that when the Scottish Government formally asked the last Labour Government in Wesmtinster (where the law can be changed) to change the law to allow this, the Labour Westminster Government point blank refused. That’s Gordon Brown for you.

      That is Scottish Labour over and over again. Then to prove just how pathetic a party they have become, this week they abstained on a vote supporting Scotland’s place in Europe. Labour are a sad, pathetic joke, run by a supposed leader who has, time and time again shown she has zero political integrity.

      Hey Kezia, how about just once actually standing up for what you believe in, instead of playing ridiculous student type political games to the detriment of Scots.

      Labour in Scotland, a proverbial waste of oxygen.

    4. Baldeagle58 says:

      Chris, as always you”ve hit the nail on the head with another cracking cartoon!
      Shows exactly where SLabour are, especially Kezia, over Brexit. They can’t understand that Nicola and the SG are trying their best to protect our Country, while they can’t decide how to deal with Brexit at all!

    5. Malky says:

      She’s a wily one, that Kezia. She’ll go far.

    6. Sassenach says:

      But her ‘foreman’ in London told her how to paint that room, so “It’s no my fault”!!!

    7. defo says:

      My, she’s putting on the beef.It must be by always having one about SNP bad.
      She’ll never get a man at this rate.

    8. Stoker says:

      Aye, always painting herself into a corner. That’s Dippy right enough. And i know how she always gets herself out of it….
      she simply changes the colour of paint used.
      🙂

    9. Well at least the judgement went for us and Wales and Scotland can now take part in negotiations.

    10. Tackety Beets says:

      Sadly work etc has kept me away recently. I am behind reading the posts.

      Sincere apologies if this has been posted already .

      https://terryentoure.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/demagoguery-and-ideological-narcissism.html

    11. winifred mccartney says:

      Kez nae brains and Ruth no heart both intent on ruining scotland and following their masters orders. The only thing you can rely on with labour is that when the going gets tough they will abstain, and nothing will melt the shouting pouting ruth and the tories she represents though even she doesn’t like to use the word tory. Great cartoon but its only they who can’t see it is themselves they have boxed into a corner. Keep them there away from the rest of us please.

    12. Grouse Beater says:

      I like the contradiction in the power suit she’s wearing, Chris, but shouldn’t the paint be a shade of blue?

      Weekend reading http://wp.me/p4fd9j-axu

    13. Smallaxe says:

      Lizzie is looking for somebody to freshen up her place Kezia,it pays well!
      or would that be hard Labour?

      Keep her in that corner Chris and give her a pointed hat with a “D”on it.

      Nice one.

      Peace Always

    14. bookie from hell says:

      I’ve finally made up my mind regarding currency

      If SNP bottle a separate scottish currency I’m voting NO any future referendum

    15. Hamish100 says:

      bookie from hell says:
      19 November, 2016 at 9:08 am
      I’ve finally made up my mind regarding currency

      If SNP bottle a separate scottish currency I’m voting NO any future referendum
      —————————————————————
      I am happy to get independence first then decide on any other currency options. I think you are a tory. Currency v nuclear weapons on our soil, going into illegal wars. I suppose bookies are only interest in the old notes in whatever currency.

    16. Another Union Dividend says:

      Morningside denizens tell their Red Tory MP abstainer to stop Article 50

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/14915474.Constituents_tell_MP_Murray__stop_Article_50/

    17. defo says:

      bookie from hell

      Good for you !

      I’m Yes, £,$,€, Yuan, sea shells, bitcoin, whatevs.

      You can stay a second class citizen, tied to a failing UK and a soon to be severely further devalued £.

    18. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent. When the paint dries, Kezia has to get out of that corner!

      If May goes for the Hard to Dirty end of the Brexit spectrum, and won’t entertain a different soft deal for Scotland, then the choice for Scotland will be Indy or sink into the shit with England.

      Unionist politicians will be faced with a choice, which first? The interests of their constituents or the interests of party and Union?

    19. jimnarlene says:

      Bookie from hell, there’s a winning attitude; not.

    20. Giving Goose says:

      galamcennalath

      They will go with the Union.
      The interests of the ordinary people don’t feature.
      Unionism as a cult, or thought process, effectively excludes the best interests of people.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      Good appraisal of the Brexit situation …

      http://www.thenational.scot/comment/14912870.Gordon_MacIntyre_Kemp__Wherever_May_goes__all_roads_lead_to_indyref2

      In its final paragraph it points out that the best scenario for an Indy Scotland after a hard Brexit might be EFTA / EEA membership but not fully in the EU. That would allow free trade with both EU and iEngland.

      In other words Nicola is pursuing single market for two reasons. First, posturing until May tells us it’s hard Brexit. Secondly, as an Indy option if it is hard Brexit.

    22. Chris, you’ve made my day. Wonderful.

    23. winifred mccartney says:

      Does the nae brains head belong to Kezia and the heartless body belong to Ruth – as bad as each other – following their masters orders – could not care at all about Scotland only the party and the union.

    24. mike cassidy says:

      The Nationalist articles archived.

      Murray

      http://archive.is/WTFrJ

      Macintyre-Kmp

      http://archive.is/sjZAa

    25. Capella says:

      Kezia is full of contradictions. Yesterday’s grandstanding about nationalising the railways sounded like a well planned attack.

      But Abellio IS a state owned operator. Just Dutch. Were we not told repeatedly that internationlism is their ideal? Why are Labour and ASLEF rejecting international state owners?

      How many corners can she paint herself into?

    26. Bob Mack says:

      Poor Kezia.

      There’s an old saying that when nodody’s there for you ,then you have got to pick yourself up.
      Nobody is there for Kezia because she has sold her principles to the devil. She still has time, but it is limited.

    27. Croompenstein says:

      She’ll not be able to get oot and sell their pishy calendars Chris

      So many supporters have already donated to snap up one of our 2017 calendars – Labour Through The Ages. We’re glad you think they’ll make a great gift – for friends and family, or just for yourself!

      So don’t miss out – we’ll send a limited edition calendar to anyone who donates £9 or more by midnight on Tuesday 22 November.

      A few people have asked to see some more months. Here’s a sneak peak of January and December – but to see all 12 you’ll need to donate before midnight on Tuesday 22 November

      I can’t wait for the sneak preview pic of the shock and awe bombing of Baghdad you red tory fuckers

    28. mike cassidy says:

      OT – or maybe not

      for a bit of “California Dreaming” you mamas and papas.

      http://archive.is/tLDuB

      http://archive.is/66vlK

    29. Proud Cybernat says:

      Amen, Chris! (See what I did there).

      “We’ll keep the red flag drying here!”

      Okay–so now that Scotland has a say in this Supreme Court case, what exactly does it mean?

      Surely, with Executive Powers (i.e. the Royal Prerogative), Theresa May (if she wins) will only be able to legislate Brexit for England and Wales–no? Given that the Royal Prerogative has no influence in Scotland (where it is the PEOPLE who are sovereign), then T.May cannot use Royal Prerogative to remove Scotland from the EU without the explicit consent of the sovereign people of Scotland–do I have this right?

      And even if the Supreme Court rules that Westminster must have a say, given that this is a constitutional issue, then it must surely follow that it will require separate and explicit consent of the Scottish MPs of the House of Commons (who exercise temporarliy exercise the sovereign will of the people of Scotland)–no? In a question such as this (where there are underlying constitutional issues at the very heart of the question), then it simply cannot be right that the superior numbers of rUK MPs in the Westminster parliament get to over-ride the sovereign will of the people of Scotland–no?

      In short–what is the difference between T.May using the Royal Prerogative to get her way or the greater numbers of rUK MPs to get her way?

      Or am I just being a bampot?

    30. Nana says:

      Oh dear another fine mess you’ve got yourself into Kezia.
      In the corner with nowhere to run to and nowhere to hide.

      @Proud Cybernat

      But the tories are urging May to drop the case fearing the Scots may get ‘some rights’ [Link on previous thread]

    31. Luigi says:

      Great cartoon, Chris.

      Remember the Mr Bean sketch ,when he tried to be clever and save a lot of decorating work by blowing up a tin of paint in his living room? Well, the Tories are Mr Bean, the tin of paint is Brexit, and Labour is the dumb ass left holding his hat.

      Boom. 🙂

    32. Macart says:

      Heh. Needed that.

      Many thanks Chris. 🙂

    33. JLT says:

      Yep. Got kind of interesting over the last day.

      Ian Murray is being asked by his constituents to stop Article 50, thus putting him in a bit of a quandary. If he refuses, he can kiss the General Election next time round goodbye, while if he decides to follow what his constituents want, then that could open the flood gates for other Labour MP’s and well Scottish Labour MSP’s to do the same. Did he not see that one coming?!?

      Scotland wins the right to have a say in Brexit…

      …which has now led to senior Tories howling at Theresa to not fight take the Judges decision over Article 50 in the Supreme Court as it might allow the Scottish and Welsh Governments to gain ‘veto’ powers.

      It’s gotten rather awkward and also frustratingly annoying for the Unionists and Brexiteers in this last day

      Aye! …decisions, decisions…

    34. Ken500 says:

      Labour in the red corner. Tories in the blue corner

      SNP winging it. Winning by a mile.

    35. Ken500 says:

      Labour in the red corner. Tories in the Blue.

      SNP winging it. Winning by a mile.

    36. heedtracker says:

      She needs a song for Kez written, a Xmas single number 1. JC’s got one already. Some people have a lot of time on their hands.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2kNJ_FincQ

      Song for Kez, We are living in a material world and I am a material girl… back up dancing from twerking Ed Balls, who BBC R4 tory gimps have been desperately trying to drag back from historic clowndom this week, and failing.

    37. Glesca Keelie says:

      For all the commenters re Merryn Somerset-Webb and QT, which I have’nt watched yet, she of Money Week, she resides in Edinburgh, with her husband. He, I think, works in the financial sector. They moved from London about three years ago.

      I’m with Bookie from Hell, who is no tory, without coming out for a sovereign currency, we will just get kicked in the nuts again. And perchance if we did win AND had a currency union, or shadowed the UK pound, they would use it to try to fuck us. No doubts.

      jimnarlene says:
      19 November, 2016 at 9:37 am
      Bookie from hell, there’s a winning attitude; not.
      No, it’s a realistic attitude.

      Change the SNHS to Scottish Health Service.

      Also, again, not students having a vote, unless Scots resident, no second homers, no southern neighbours flitting over the border for two weeks, the registration period just now is sixteen days. In Irish referendums you are required to produce your passport AND prove residency, obviously the passport thing is no use, but something else MUST be found. In America, photographic proof of identity is required.

      I’d find it hard to work again for Ref2 with one hand tied behind my back. Incidentally, I was told by a Labourite who had been a McConnel aide, outside a polling station at about 9.30-10pm that they had won.

      And now a little something for our leader,
      ews.nationalpost.com/news/world/its-the-weirdest-job-ever-what-happens-when-rats-get-tickled-for-science

      A ticklish rat is an adorable sight to see. The chubby little rodent darts toward a scientist’s gloved hand, eager for the delightful agony of its next scratch. It emits rapid-fire, ultrasonic “giggles” – chirps so high pitched they’re inaudible to human ears – and dashes around its enclosure in spontaneous leaps that researchers call Freudensprünge, or “joy jumps.”
      Enjoy, Rev.

    38. Bob Mack says:

      @Proud Cybernat,

      See the Claim of Right 1989. This was the document signed by many Labour and Lib Dems prior to devolution acknowledging the Sovereignty of the Scottish people.
      Only Tam Dalziel refused to sign it.

      Though it has never been tested legally it indicates that Labour and the Lib Dems representatives did acknowledge that sovereignty.

      Signatories included Gordon Brown.

    39. Ken500 says:

      Whit’s happening double post? Gremlins in the system. Spooky. Ml5

      Hi ms moneypenny

    40. Tinto Chiel says:

      Another great image, Chris.

      Oh, Kezia, you’re such a silly sausage…

    41. Robert Peffers says:

      @defo says: 19 November, 2016 at 7:52 am:

      “She’ll never get a man at this rate.”

      Ooops! Defo, Oor wee Dugdale disna seek a man. She already has a wumman, A Ms Louise Riddell. Did ye no ken yon?

      Here she is with her intended partner in marriage.

      https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/pipe/news/scotland/kezia-dugdale-to-marry-long-term-partner-louise-riddell/

    42. One_Scot says:

      I would give the shirt on my back for my children to grow up in an Interdependent Scotland, but if the SNP don’t paint my garden fence the correct shade of woodstain, then they can feck right off. Lol.

    43. Marcia says:

      Robert Peffers

      Her private life should be that – private. However her political life – well what a mess.

    44. heedtracker says:

      Red toryboys very excited today, as BBC vote No Scotland gimp say SNP are bad, really bad, shock. Sally so hates the SNP, with every last penny in her little wee BBC pay cheque.

      Scott Arthur Retweeted
      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 17h17 hours ago
      Well done Sally Magnusson challenging @AConstanceSNP to stop blaming Westminster & start using powers we have to tackle poverty in Scotland.

    45. Dr Jim says:

      It’s thon anti burglar paint
      It never dries….ever

    46. Bob Mack says:

      @proud Cybernat,

      Thinking of it, devolution was started with the Claim of Right document which held the Scottish people were Sovereign.

      If parliament at Westminster passed devolution legislation without specifically changing the contents of the Claim of Right,then technically they have agreed to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people in the devolution bill.

    47. jimnarlene, @ 9.37. he got me at ‘bookie’.
      Unionist politicians are like bookies: you never see a poor one.
      While the rest of us Scots citizens will be barred from Europe, the well off(filthy rich) ProudScotsBut will still be able to buy a villa, gite, or casa on the Continent. Indeed many of them already do.
      Hence the peddler of Fairy Stories out of touch with reality tweets. She’s filthy rich. The world is her plaything, but we aren’t, and that’s probably what annoys her and her ilk.
      Lords Darling, Reid, and McConnell have loadsa money. There are no borders for them.
      I shall not stand by while Davidson Dugdale and Rennie attempt to close Scotland off from the rest of the world behind an iron curtain.
      England shuts soon for Christmas. WM will go away for two weeks holibags. The Mandarins in Whitehall will retreat to their Home Counties Pile and roast chestnuts. After all there’s nothing pressing in the IN Tray, is there?
      Madness stalks the land.

    48. heedtracker says:

      Sally Magnusson, song for SLab and Kez, why we wont vote red tory, its ordained, by JC, SNP are bad, so very bad

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG-_ZDrypec&list=RDDNSUOFgj97M&index=15

    49. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The more posts I read on here on the matter, the more I am becoming convinced, the dissolution of the Act of Union might well be the Scottish Government’s way out of Brexit and into Independence.

      Various Westminster Governments over the years just might have taken it as read that, as Fluffy Muddle insists: “the Act of Union saw Scotland become part of England” (or words to that effect).

      Clearly, this is not the case.

      Given the pro-Independence stance of 56 of the 59 Scottish Westminster MPs, plus the pro-Independence stance of a majority of MSPs, we’ve got a case.

      Surely, the Scottish Government should have the Scottish law officers, plus the leading constitutional lawyers in Scotland on the case, so that we can tell Westminster – “we’re aff, because you have broken the terms of the Act of Union, by using the Royal Prerogative on Brexit, you have disregarded the will of the sovereign people of Scotland”.

    50. heedtracker says:

      Very British Euphemia Deans also on ecumenical theme today, SNP are bad, their vote is also bad and stupid because,

      “There are many ways of getting them to come to the communion. They must be promised free bread. This can be transformed into the forbidden flesh. They must be given free wine, brewed to a stupendous strength by monks and so already consecrated. They must be given free prescriptions, free eye tests and free tuition. All of this is so that they can taste the promised delights of Scottish independence. Just one taste and they will be licking their lips forever.

      But what of the rest of us? What of those who are immune to the SNP’s charms? We are still here. We won last time around. Who is to say that we wouldn’t win again?”

      What would Jesus vote?

    51. RogueCoder250 says:

      Just amazed that Slabour abstained on yesterday’s vote. They truly are an unelectable shambolic shower.

    52. Greannach says:

      Kezia Dugdale: the envy of political parties all over the world. Indira Gandhi; Golda Meir; Angela Merkel.

      Who are they compared to the Branch’s leader?

    53. McBoxheid says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      19 November, 2016 at 8:37 am

      I like the contradiction in the power suit she’s wearing, Chris, but shouldn’t the paint be a shade of blue?

      Weekend reading http://wp.me/p4fd9j-axu

      If we can power Scotland with renewable energy (3 x now?)
      then we can easily run motor car with it too. It’s just a case of political will and the will of the industry to do it. How many patents are bought up by manufacturers sit filed away in the archives instead of being used by the R&D sections of the industry I wonder?

    54. McBoxheid says:

      bookie from hell says:
      19 November, 2016 at 9:08 am

      I’ve finally made up my mind regarding currency

      If SNP bottle a separate scottish currency I’m voting NO any future referendum

      _________

      Another red herring to muddy the waters. When will people start to wake up to the real qestion?

      http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/proclaimers/capinhand.html

      Quite simple really. Anything else can be decided later

    55. Robert Peffers says:

      @bookie from hell says: 19 November, 2016 at 9:08 am:

      “I’ve finally made up my mind regarding currency
      If SNP bottle a separate scottish currency I’m voting NO any future referendum.”

      Please yersel, bookie frae Hell, but Scotland has always had her own currency. It is called the Pound Sterling and I can say with certainty that it has always been different enough from the English Pound Sterling to be refused in the retail outlets in London. I know this when, as a teenager in the late 1940s I was in London with only Scottish bank notes in my pocket.

      Those shops who refused my money were usually all to ready to accept, or even exchange them for English note, at their own estimated exchange rate. Strangely that exchange rate always seemed to favour the English Pound Sterling.

      So there you go, Bookie, Scotland only needs to formally declare the distinctly Scottish notes are, “The Scottish Pound Sterling”, and then decide how to deal if they want it tied to the English, (there cannot be an rUK with only one remaining kingdom), pound Sterling.

      Now, as the English Pound Sterling is, and has always been, an international trading currency, anyone can use it for all international trading currencies are actually commodities, (bought and sold on the open currency markets).

      You can check out their going rates any time in the newspapers, news broadcasts and the internet. The newsreaders will quote the pound’s value against every other international trading currency almost every newscast. Just google, “Forex Currency Market”, and you can trade in any international trading currency you fancy.

      Then it will be entirely up to the independent Scottish parliament to decide if they want to tie the Scottish currency to the English Pound or to even allow it to become an international trading currency.

      They could decide to tie it to any other international trading currency if they so chose and they do not even require to have a central bank if they do not want to have one. BTW: as the Bank of England does not actually belong to England, and it never has.

      The fact is that the BofE was nationalised by the UK parliament in 1946 and thus is partly owned by the only legal partner to the Kingdom of England in the United Kingdom. It is, Bookie, and always has been, a Kingdom composed of only two partners. It is not a single country.

      So the BofE will be faced with two alternatives – it either acts as the central bank for both kingdoms on the Union splitting up or it buys out one of the partner kingdoms.

      Now here’s a wee fact for you. For every Scottish banknote issued there is, in the BofE’s vaults, the equivalent value deposited. This is the Scottish Banks deposit account and it will have to be either returned to the Scottish banks or the BofE must agree to act as the Central Bank of Scotland.

      BTW: many countries manage just fine using another countries international trading currency and do so without a central bank.

      The point is you are accepting, without question, what the Westminster liars have claimed. Beginning with the assumption that Scotland leaves behind a still united Kingdom. As there are only two Kingdoms signatures on the Treaty of Union just what are the other Kingdom, or kingdoms, that the three country Kingdom of England will still be united with in an rUK? When two kingdoms split up there is no remaining UK.

    56. bookie from hell says:

      actualy I’m an x libdem

      really believed in a federal union

      your mistaken if you think you can be wishy washy on currency
      next referendum

      I’m trying to help

      Scottish currency is a solid position,avoids all the bull.

      you cannae share the pound
      your joining the euro

      look at Sweden,they are serious about digital currency

      I still vote SNP elections for Nicola alone

    57. heedtracker says:

      Who are they compared to the Branch’s leader?

      Kez stands by her principles. And as she has none, except SNP bad, she’s the next First Minister, who will then set about everything and anything BBC vote SLab Scotland deem a threat to their control of their northern region of greater England.

      They are principled you know. Blue tory Ian Murray for example SLabstains on all kinds of blue tory horrors. Then he lies like a tory about it all on national tv. Ian even ended his own front bench career Westminster style, as he knifed Corbyn with principled alacrity this summer.

      Have to hand it to JC as we no longer have slow eyed Ian seated next to Corbyn at PMQ’s , holding in those Westminster breakfast farts at PMQ’s, nodding sleepily. Now JC’s got to very attractive women either side of him PMQ’s. There’s always an upside from less and less red tory SLabour.

    58. Bob Mack says:

      @Socrates Mc sporran,

      Dominic Grieve the former Solicitor General and several other senior Tories are requesting May to abandon this appeal to the Supreme Court.

      I think the penny has dropped that no matter the outcome there will be a Constitutional crisis. If Scotland is successful them May and indeed Scotland faces the wrath of middle England. The Union would become untenable.

    59. CameronB Brodie says:

      Capella

      But Abellio IS a state owned operator. Just Dutch. Were we not told repeatedly that internationlism is their ideal? Why are Labour and ASLEF rejecting international state owners?

      Because they are ideologically minded Corporatists. Their ideology is British National Socialism. This allows them to think and act in a manner defined by ‘British national interests’, regardless if this conflicts with certain obligations to international law and human rights.

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    60. Meg merrilees says:

      Capella @10.20

      I don’t think the Trades Unions are rejecting Abellio because purely because it’s Dutch.

      They have a bigger trophy – they want to bring down the Scottish Government and get a Labour administration in place. Hence, Kezia’s questions at FMQ’s for the last couple of weeks have been about transport – not education, her usual lament.

      Also, on QT on Thursday night, Chris Bryant (Labour) was quick to mention Abellio at one point in the discussion with John Donaldson and of course there are the ever pervasive headlines on the newspapers sending out their insidiousness, demanding that Humsa Yousaf steps down and , in one case, that Nicola RESIGNs! .

      It was bad luck that the train broke down the other morning – or was it? Could that have been ‘engineered’?

      Not defending Abellio, just suggesting that something is afoot and Kezia is part of it.

    61. Bob Mack says:

      @Bookie from Hell .

      Facts dear fellow.

      We cannot join the Euro for many years until we meet their conditions and approval from the IMF.or indeed we can delay this indefinitely like Sweden.
      The pound is also our currency though we could use any tradeable currency.

    62. McBoxheid says:

      Just imagine if the Supreme Court says that Enland has the right to leave AND Scotland has the right to remain and England, if it wants to leave, it can’t drag Scotland out, but can elect to break up the Union and go it’s own way.

      They can’t change the Treaty of Union, but they can elect to dissolve it.

      rUK would then be Scotland, (under the treaty of Union) and if, say NI also insisted in remaining it would be the UK of Scotland and NI. England and Wales be be called something like The former UK State of England and the Principality of Wales.

      There is precedence for such names

      http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/countries/detailed-country-information/former-yugoslav-republic-of-macedonia/index_en.htm

    63. galamcennalath says:

      bookie from hell says:

      I still vote SNP [at] elections for Nicola alone

      I vote SNP mainly for their commitment to Indy and it’s pursuit.

      The good governance and safe hands with Holyrood’s limited powers in a bonus worth having meantime.

      I accept that SNP/Nicola will choose a sensible game plan. Fast Indy in the case of clear and present danger, or slow incremental Indy if they deem that best.

      I have my own opinions on everything, which do not always coincide with the SNP. I bow to their greater political skills!

      Should they ever give up on Scottish independence, I will resign membership and not vote. I do not expect that to happen.

    64. Dr Jim says:

      All of us have travelled throughout the world or lived in different countries and all of us have spent time explaining to folk from other countries that Scotland is not the same as England sometimes to quizzical looks and a lack of understanding of the complexities of the UK

      We talk about our cultural differences our political differences but still many times it’s confusing to the questioner as to why we’re still a part of a system we don’t agree with or like, to the questioner it’s simple “Why don’t we just leave” they suggest, and then the explanation becomes more difficult again

      To the average foreign person England UK Great Britain are all the same places, and in that statement shows how successful the UK has been in it’s world propaganda of subsuming our country and dissapearing it

      When people overseas express their dislike for the “English” what they mostly mean is the perception of London as all of the aforementioned places making it more difficult for Scotland as a country to be noticed above the dislike for the main bit
      Yet as any discourse continues with foreign folk and their minds are jogged a little they begin to realise that yes they do know something about Scotland, we play bad football drink whisky and wear kilts, we also eat some funny stuff as well
      So by this time we’re on a roll and we’re happy, Scotland exists again and a good time is generally had by all, because foriegn folk tend to like us Scots, they like our humour our openness and willingness to join in no matter how poor we might be at their games or language or customs
      and that’s a great thing we Scots are able to accomplsh abroad for our country

      But now here’s the thing “Brexit” is telling the world “We” don’t want to know them and in that moment if we, Scotland leave the European Union all our efforts and place in the world will have been pushed back a hundred years behind the narrow self centred Imperialistic English Nationalism that
      created the unequal society we struggle to resolve today and it will only get worse if we allow England to redo history all over again and cancel Scotland

    65. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 19 November, 2016 at 10:20 am:

      “How many corners can she paint herself into?”

      That made me smile, Capella.

      The truth is she only has painted herself into one corner.

      The problem is that every time she does so she changes her mind about the colour and then paints herself back into the very same old corner again as has become usual.

      As my old Granny used to say, “Some people will never learn”. Granny knew a thing or two million.

    66. Meg merrilees says:

      Another brilliant cartoon!

      Socrates Mc S @11.47

      I wonder if that is the logic underpinning Mrs. Thatcher’s belief that once Scotland had a majority of pro-independence MP’s at Westminster, then they would be entitled to seek separation.

      John Donaldson touched on it it QT on thursday but when asked by Dimble bore if that was his stance now John said ‘No!’ curiously…

      Proud Cybernat@10.41

      I think you understand it perfectly.
      Nicola has known from the outset that TM would not be able to use the Royal P to enable Art. 50 which is why there was a flurry of headlines in July/August about a ‘Scottish Veto’.
      At which point ‘oor Nicki’ said she did not intend to veto anything but wanted input into the discussions at the highest level.

      Of course this hasn’t happened, and TM has pressed on blindly like a broken record.. ‘we are on target to trigger Art. 50 in March 2017’ etc..

      She is being advised NOT to go through with this appeal. Mike Russell has advised her to desist; the High Court has more-or-less spelt it out to her but the usual UK Government arrogance means they can’t help themselves. It will open a humungous can of worms,
      the genie will be out of the bottle big time and Pandora’s box will be blown to smithereens.

      An article I was reading last night states that the Supreme Court consists of two Scottish judges and 10 others from the rUK and normally upwards of 5 judges will hear an appeal.
      Even if both Scottish judges sit on a particular case, the majority of judges will not be especially well versed in Scots law, so they defer to their Scottish colleagues on matter Scots and simply concur with their ruling – Nicola as a lawyer knows this but does TM?

      If the UKSCourt agrees with the High Court ruling then a Legislative Consent Motion will have to discussed and voted on in Holyrood and, I think, in NI.

      2017 could be a pivotal year – fingers crossed.

    67. heedtracker says:

      If the UKSCourt agrees with the High Court ruling then a Legislative Consent Motion will have to discussed and voted on in Holyrood and, I think, in NI.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38034411

      Former minister Sir Oliver, who oversaw a “Brexit Unit” in the Cabinet Office after the referendum, told BBC Radio 4’s Today Programme that the Supreme Court hearing could see ministers’ powers outside Parliament curbed.

      He added that one of the advantages of bringing a “fast and tightly timetabled and constrained bill” to Parliament, giving the government the ability to trigger Brexit without any constraints on its negotiating power, was that it avoided “any risk of the Supreme Court deciding to accord the devolved administrations some rights or even some veto powers” over triggering Article 50.”

      Vote NO for equal partnership in teamGB 2014.

      Veto them, 2016.

      Its the UKOK way.

    68. Dan Huil says:

      It’s the neuklear option

    69. Dan Huil says:

      bookie from hell is obviously still a britnat if he seriously considers voting No in the next referendum.

    70. Tam Jardine says:

      Great cartoon Chris. I think Kezia’s vote reflects her priority- union first and above all. The great hypocrisy for me is Alex Rowley and the other slab msp who are pro EU and want us to stay in even if it means leaving the UK.

      How can they obey the whip over their own stated views? And those of their constituents?

      I’m trying to understand the export report which has sired the great 4 times battering ram ie UK is 4 times as important a market than the EU.

      My first thoughts are- the stats are as unreliable as you can get- based on transposing small percentages of respondents who may be giving accurate figures or may be conjuring up ball park guesses for the survey.

      Second- oil and gas exports are excluded.

      Third EU and RoW figures exclude over a billion from certain sectors- currently trying to figure out which ones but it looked like being well over a billion difference from total exports.

      Fourth- goods destined for EU sold to rUK firms are classed as rUK exports and therefore underestimate our actual trade with EU and overstate rUK exports (I think)

      Fifth and most importantly: does any of this matter anyway? The rUK will always be a huge market for us. Either it is good to be a massive net exporter (which we are) or it is not good (and most people would agree it is a good thing for our economy).

      Scotland and rUK, come independence will develop a symbiotic relafionship- it is very much in our interest for us to have as few barriers to trade with rUK as possible- that much I agree with the yoons. But at the same time- any barriers they have with us will be barriers they would then also share when trading with the the rest of the EU so any crowing about difficulties we would face would be absurd- any punishment Scotland would face would be an act of grotesque self harm by rUK PLC.

      Finally- our exports to the EU are products, goods, machinery and of course we supply all these to rUK in vast quantities. Our exports to rUK are so vast in terms of STUFF THEY NEED – forestry, aggregates, food, drink, electricity, construction, financial services, chemicals, oil, gas, utilities, machinery, IT, administration, retail…. The list is endless. Can you imagine the devastation to both economies if all this ceased?

      I need to go buy stuff from the supermarket but the supermarket also needs my custom- it is not a one- sided relationship.

      All this is very obvious of course but I am becoming enraged every time I hear or read of our country being depicted like some kind of vulnerable upstart who needs this market to survive when the truth is it goes both ways.

      I’m just going to start telling people that I am so much of a unionist I won’t settle for a union of 60 million- I want to stay in a union of half a billion people. That’s not possible so next best thing is a union of £450 million.

    71. jimnarlene says:

      @Glesca Keelie, how is voting against independence, because of an unknown currency, when you voted yesvtge first time round, a realistic attitude?

      We can use any currency, it is of no importance, just smoke and mirrors.

    72. Macbeda says:

      I remember meeting a delightful US couple in Mexico.

      She was a professor of Law at some mid-state Uni. Always took students on a trip to UK to see the police training college in England.

      Whe I asked if she had bee to Tulliallan to visit the Scottish Police College I got a blank look.

      I had to explain that we had our own legal system and separate police force.

      She was gobsmacked.

      She did intend to come to Scotland next trip.

      I often wonder if she ever did.

      Strange how little things are lost.

    73. Jack Murphy says:

      Jim Murphy Labour MP 2 years ago:
      “The European Union is our biggest market”.
      Ponsonby Post YouTube.
      http://tinyurl.com/hfxqdrp

    74. Robert Peffers says:

      @McBoxheid says: 19 November, 2016 at 12:31 pm:

      “rUK would then be Scotland, (under the treaty of Union).

      Rubbish! How many times must it be said before the truth sinks in?

      The United Kingdom is without doubt a bipartite union of KINGDOMS. It only indirectly united four countries because, as its title tells you, it is a United Kingdom.

      It is not, and never has been The United Country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What’s more was only two British Kingdoms in 1706/7.

      The Kingdom of England cannot thus return to being any form of united kingdom as there are no other kingdoms in Britain to be united with.

      So neither can Scotland. The Status Quo Ante is exactly what it was on the last day of April 1707, One Kingdom comprised of three countries – (with the exception that the former English Province of Ireland has partitioned).

      Ireland remains a single country but is partitioned and governed by two different governments. One of which is a republic and a republic, by definition, cannot be part of a Kingdom. The other, Northern Ireland, is an English Province.

      The Irish state came into being in 1922 as the, “Irish Free State”, a dominion of the British Commonwealth, having seceded from the United Kingdom under the Anglo-Irish Treaty. It comprises 26 of the island of Ireland’s 32 counties. The 1937 constitution renamed the state Ireland.

      ” … There is precedence for such names
      http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/countries/detailed-country-information/former-yugoslav-republic-of-macedonia/index_en.htm

      More utter rubbish – read the words McBoxheid. Those links you quote all refer to countries and the United Kingdom is a union of two only kingdoms.

      When it splits up it returns to being the same two independent kingdoms who agreed to unite in 1706/7. It does not return to being four countries for it has always been four countries.

      Ireland remains the one country of Ireland but is under two different governments. The North is still an English Province and is often spoken of as, “The Province of Ulster”.

      There is no other example of two kingdoms uniting as a United Kingdom on Earth. The Westminster propaganda that it is anything else is only in their minds. It has no legal standing. How can a two partner United Kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms become what is now the country of England, calling itself the United Kingdom and treating itself as a country called the United Kingdom while funding itself directly as the United Kingdom treat its former annexed countries as underlings by devolving the United Kingdom’s powers to them and even more insultingly demote its only partner kingdom of Scotland to being a country of England annexed country and devolve English powers to Scotland as a country when Scotland is in fact an equally sovereign kingdom in the United Kingdom.

      Please do not make yourself look like an idiot by sucking in all the Westminster lies.

      The United Kingdom is NOT a United Country and it never has been. It is a union of Kingdoms. Scotland is a Kingdom and a country but England is a country but only one such in the Kingdom Of England that signed the Treaty.

      The proof is that neither Wales or Ireland signed the treaty because the were part of the Kingdom of England and it was that kingdom of England that signed it was not only the country of England or Wales and Ireland would not have become part of the union.

    75. K1 says:

      So, if May is told, for that is potentially what will happen, that she must drop the appeal as continuing would indeed scupper their intentions in ways that completely alter the outcome of Brexit (threatens their Union).

      What then?

      What is our position then?

    76. Dan Huil says:

      @K1 1:58pm

      Declare independence anyway since England will be in the middle of a civil war.

    77. K1 says:

      I’ve now read Gordon Macintyre-Kemp’s take on this with the various options and outcomes laid out in plain terms…very helpful. The Union is over whatever way it goes.

      We’re on our way.

    78. K1 says:

      Also combined with Morningside’s challenging Murray tae vote against A50, with the Herald being unable to find many leave voters of an opposing view, but finding many No voters expressing they would now vote Yes. I can see the tide has turned.

      It’s all coming to a head…in our favour. We have never been so close.

    79. cirsium says:

      @bookie from hell, 12.16

      I agree that we need monetary sovereignty to be independent but we need to stay with cash. Look who is pushing for a cashless society –
      http://wolfstreet.com/2016/10/19/powers-on-forefront-of-war-on-cash/

    80. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I agree that we need monetary sovereignty to be independent but we need to stay with cash. Look who is pushing for a cashless society –”

      Pheck it! I’ll use bloddy irn bru bottles if we have to. Them’s what you call a real hard currency.

    81. sinky says:

      Well worth taking a copy of this to respond to cringers.

      Building a better Scotland Ten SNP achievements

      http://www.snp.org/building_a_better_scotland

      And what we learnt this week about Brexit

      http://www.snp.org/what_we_ve_learnt_this_week_about_tory_brexit

    82. Capella says:

      @ Meg Merilees – yes I’m sure there is a bigger game plan in Kezia’s FMQs.
      Re ASLEF – I noticed this tweet in the Rev’s twitter yesterday. From Kevin Lindsay, Scottish Secretary of ASLEF. Not a fan of SNP obvs.
      https://twitter.com/Innealadair/status/799348466489012224

    83. galamcennalath says:

      sinky says:

      And what we learnt this week about Brexit

      …. in the style of WoS with references from Yoonery.

    84. bugsbunny says:

      What with everyone saying Kezia has no brain and Ruth has no heart, it’s beginning to look like the Wizard of OZ.

      Kezia is the Scarecrow with no brain, a head full of straw that can’t frighten the birds, pointing in all directions and unsteady on her feet.

      Ruth is the Tin Man. No heart, all shiny on the outside, but hollow, and devoid of any substance inside. Although she won’t admit it, she really does rely on the oil. Does not like rainy days, and makes a loud noise if banged. Always carries a large chopper, which may be symbolic for something?

      So who is the Cowardly Lion? David Coburn or Willie Rennie? A big Fearty Gawk that is scared of their own shadow.

      Nicola is, of course the heroine of this story, Dorothy, with perhaps Patrick Harvie as Toto, a little friend of Dorothy. Theresa May is the Wicked Witch of the East, and us Indies as the Little Munchkins that help Dorothy get to the Emerald City, (or Independence)?

      God knows who the Emperor is? but the flying monkeys that help the Witch and attack Dorothy are the Yoons, especially the OO, and of course, their enablers the BUM press.

    85. Thepnr says:

      Kezia has carried on the good work of her predecessor Jim Murphy by continuing their steady march towards electoral oblivion in Scotland.

      New UK wide poll released by YouGov today, Scottish weighted sample size is 158 so margin of error will be larger than the normal 3%. However the results make very poor reading for Kezia and Labour in Scotland:

      Westminster voting intention:

      SNP 52%
      Lab 21%
      Con 20%
      Lib 4%
      UKIP 2%
      Grn 1%

      In the 2015 GE Labour had 24% of the vote and the Tories only 15%.
      SNP had 50% in 2015.

      Labour now been squeezed out from both sides in no small part I’m sure due to their constant dithering and lack of leadership. In fact Labour had 42% of the Scottish vote in 2010.

      Link to pdf of full results.

      https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j91v52gjon/YGArchive-171116-VotingIntention.pdf

    86. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Theresa May is the Wicked Witch of the East…”

      Nah–that has to be JK Rowling! Or is she the Wizard?

    87. CameronB Brodie says:

      If I was a woman I’d be looking for Kevin Lindsay’s balls to be handed to me on a plate. Is that weird perspective? Are my values wonky?

      Obviously not an issue for BLiS Scotland’s leader though.

    88. Thepnr says:

      @bugsbunny

      Truly brilliant analogy. Loved it, brought a smile to my coupon LOL

    89. Proud Cybernat says:

      SNP 52%

      So the yoon colonial media’s full-on SNP-Bad attack is really bearing them fruit then!?

      Keep it up BBC, you bunch of phuckwits.

      ROFLMBHAO

    90. CameronB Brodie says:

      Don’t know where that extra Scotland came from when referring to BLiS above. Must have been bursting to get out. 🙂

    91. manandboy says:

      Kezia Dugdale – Does it matter that she is the most incompetent politician in the history of the Labour & Unionist Party’s Scottish branch?

      And is it actually true to say that Kezia Dugdale is an asset to the Independence movement?

      The answers are to be found in the way that doing political campaigning has changed in the past few years, and is dated to July 2012 and the start of the IndyRef14 campaign.

      For it was then that campaigning ceased to be a debate about policies and became pure propaganda. This sentence requires closer scrutiny, for while the word ‘propaganda’ is familiar to most of the electorate, I would humbly suggest, its meaning is not.
      Suffice to say, Indy14 was lost because Better Together engaged in a campaign of ‘smear & fear’ propaganda, while the Yes campaign was conducted within the rules and promoted the advantages of Independence.

      That still doesn’t advance our understanding of precisely how Propaganda works or why it is such a successful method of influencing populations, but it does begin to explain why things are the way they are in the battle for Independence.

      It also helps explain why Kez is still leader of the fast disappearing Labour & Unionist Party in Scotland.

      The explanation lies in the fact that in the new politics, it is the PROPAGANDA that persuades voters, NOT the politician.

      In the UK today, propaganda has become the dominant force in politics. Propaganda won IndyRef14, the Brexit Referendum and the US Presidential Election for Donald Trump.

      If the IndyRef2 campaign is fought in the same way as in IndyRef14, Better Together will win again.

      And if Kezia Dugdale was to be replaced as Labour’s Scottish branch manager by a cuddly toy, wearing pampers, it would make little difference to Labour’s next election results in Scotland. The Unionist propaganda campaign will do all that’s required.

      In the meantime, we must all brush up on our understanding of propaganda – or else we’ll lose again.
      Just google ‘propaganda’, or, ‘how does propaganda work’.

      Be in no doubt, propaganda works, just like advertising works, and if the SNP and the Yes movement don’t learn how to combat Unionist propaganda, and it’s not by just having a positive campaign, then we will guarantee for ourselves another terrible Independence result.

    92. bugsbunny says:

      Thanks Thepnr,

      Perhaps Chris can do a wee cartoon to that effect? Nicola as Dorothy with little Patrick Toto looking out of the basket, enabled, (though not on purpose), by The Lion, The Scarecrow and the Tin Man. The Little Munchkins wearing Yes Badges and SNP Badges harassed by Theresa the Witch with the flying monkeys with their sash on. Some can even be seen playing a flute. With a big smiley sun with Alex Salmonds face saying “Good Morning”. “This way East to the Emerald City of Independence”.

    93. Robert Peffers says:

      @Meg merrilees says: 19 November, 2016 at 12:55 pm:

      “I wonder if that is the logic underpinning Mrs. Thatcher’s belief that once Scotland had a majority of pro-independence MP’s at Westminster, then they would be entitled to seek separation.”

      Ah! Meg, you have the right of it. The points I’ve been making on Wings since ever I came here to lurk are exactly what is now beginning to unfold in the United Kingdom and it really has not even scratched the surface in either the Westminster Establishment nor the English general public.

      I first learned the real legal position way back as a wee 11 year old schoolboy. I had an inkling of it from one of the best two teachers I ever knew and one was a history teacher but the real truth came from an old eminent QC who I befriended in 1948.

      I was a great one for reading and would spend most Saturdays trailing around the many second hand shops in the Old Town of Edinburgh before making my way to either Easter Road or Tynecastle for the football. On good days I would go to The Old Greyfrier’s Churchyard for a good read in perhaps the then most peaceful place in Edinburgh.

      I sometimes shared a bench with an old man who, like myself, always had his nose in a book. After a long time the old fellow spoke to me about our shared love of books. It turned out he was also a great one for Scottish history and an ardent Scottish Nationalist.

      He it was who explained to me the legal standing, or rather the lack of it, of the Treaty of Union. His theory was that sooner or later the Westminster Establishment would reach a stage when the incumbents thereof would be so brainwashed that they would not know the truth and only then would Scotland extricate herself from the Union but here’s the big if – only if the legally sovereign people of Scotland knew that they were legally sovereign and made it stick.

      I think you may already have noticed that even ardent nationalists still cannot grasp the truth that the Treaty of Union did NOT directly unite four countries. It is a legal document, It was signed by only the two existing, equally sovereign, kingdoms in the British Isles and there is not a single mention of countries in the entire agreement.

      Yet here on Wings I’m having a very hard time getting that message into the heads of dyed in the wool independence supporters. So the old QC was right that only when the Westminster lot believe their own lies will they overstep the mark and be caught in a trap of their own making.

      That point I believe is now here. Their own legal system is now faced with a conundrum. How can they retain any integrity as a legal profession when the only way to prevent their own integrity as a legal profession is to tell the truth?

      The truth is simple. It is not contained in the legal books you see in lawyers offices but in the Greater Oxford Dictionary that should be in every public library that still remains open in today’s austerity measures times.

      The definition of the terms, treaty, kingdom, country, state, Great Britain, Britain, British and united are all that is required for any real legal eagle to make the case abundantly clear.

      The United Kingdom is exactly that – a union of, from the signatures, two only kingdoms. It is thus no more than exactly two kingdoms. It certainly does contain four countries but three of them are what comprises the one Kingdom of England that signed the Treaty with the equally sovereign Kingdom of Scotland.

      It is thus not a problem to show that dividing up the United Kingdom along the lines of country is NOT splitting the Kingdom into its legal component parts. More so it is not hard to show that England, the country, and England the Kingdom are two different things.

      There is absolutely no documentary evidence that the Treaty of Union extinguished either Kingdom in favour of the other nor that it renamed either kingdom as other than what it was. In fact all evidence, including the crowns, royal coats of arms and national flags of each country and each kingdom are still official and current.

      I remember on one occasion my family were stopped in a layby on the Scottish/English border. To our surprise the royal Daimler drew into the layby for a very brief stop.

      The driver popped out of the vehicle, removed the English royal pennant from the vehicle and replaced it with the Scottish Royal pennant. Then instantly drove on.

      The point now is that there is no way the Westminster Establishment can show legal sovereignty over their only legal Kingdom Partner except by the tacit acceptance of the sovereign people of Scotland that they have.

      Will we Scots, as a majority, allow them to take away our legal sovereignty – again?

      Remember that there were several Scottish, “Claim of Right”, made in 1689, 1842 and 1989 that were ignored by Westminster. Yet by that very act of ignoring the sovereign people of Scotland’s Claims of Right, (a claim of right is a claim of sovereignty), there has never been a Westminster official denial that the people of Scotland WERE NOT legally sovereign, Indeed as the laws of Scotland are made independent by the Treaty of Union and are based upon the concept that the people are sovereign it is impossible for Westminster to deny the concept without also denying the treaty itself.

      That means there is no Westminster ruling that Scotland is not an equally sovereign partner kingdom in the Union but now Ms May has both set, baited and triggered a trap that is going to spring when it hits the supreme court and if it does not spring the trap it only proves that the English Supreme court is a sham and this time the whole World is sitting in judgment ON the supreme court.

      Not least those in the EU parliament where doing down the Westminster Establishment has become a desirable thing. There hangs the really important point. If the EU can understand that the United Kingdom is a bipartite marriage of two kingdoms and not a single country it opens the door for them to accept one partner who wishes to remain European and allow, or even assist the one that has been a thorn in their flesh since old De Gaul voiced his much repeated, “NON”, to UK entry to Europe.

      Bear in mind, though, that the European Parliament cannot take any official action until there is an official request from Westminster to leave the EU. They cannot, in any way, negotiate the UK leaving until they ask to leave.

    94. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Peffers –

      I’d love to see a double-page spread in The National, by you, laying it all out.

      That would make Rock’s day, eh?

      🙂

    95. Andrew Mclean says:

      Meg merrilees says: 12:22,

      Yes something is afoot, i am pressing for the name of the person responsible for switching off the cctv in George square, well would you believe it,?

      Drip feed to the times regarding the Chinese government, bigger story but coincidence happens rarely, when it doesn’t when there is a defined pattern of behaviour, timeframe perfectly fitting, then as illogical as it may sound, when you have eliminated each and every actor, then the impossible becomes the possible.

      I am completely convinced that there is an orchestrated attempt to destroy the reputation of the Scottish government, to be honest most politicians can destroy themselves without help, but this is controlled, planned, a word here, a document there, even down to the politicians not knowing themselves they are being played. Sometimes the person lobbies a politician not knowing he himself, or she in this case may be being played herself.

      Political life in Scotland will never be the same again, the old unionists political power is ebbing away, some time soon most people will ask, what is going on, why are we not independent. Today the yes camp is about 60% that is SNP 52, greens 8%, and as the years progress then the independence movement will continue to rise.

      Once the rubicon has passed in people’s minds, then going back is impossible the die is cast, Alea iacta Est, unionist commentators especially the anonymous ones are hyping up the union, true blue and god save the queen flavour, and they don’t know where that will lead, they think that’s ok because true blue would not hurt, they are on our side aren’t they. And this will be their undoing, gunrunning, prostitution, drugs, protection rackets, that is what pays for the paramilitary in Northern Ireland, and better together, in sleeping with that dog have caught fleas. Stupid stupid men, just because you have a picture of the queen on display doesn’t make you less of everything Scotland in union membership would run a mile from, putting their members amoungst that lot will end in tears for some. Mark my words.

    96. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      So why, Robert, does Westminster still think that a second Indy Ref can only be permitted with its say so (section 30 order)?

      Surely if the people of Scotland entrust their sovereignty to its elected SNP representatives and those representatives overwhelmingly decide they want to hold another IndyRef then why don’t they just go ahead and do it? Why don’t they say to Westminster, “Ram yer section thirty order! We are a sovereign people and we will have our sovereign referendum whether you agree or not.”

      What’s stopping our elected sovereign repreentatives from doing that at Westminster and Holyrood if we are the sovereign people you keep telling us we are?

      (I’m not questioning you on this btw–I believe we are, as you say, a sovereign people. But why the hell do our SNP reps not realise this and why do they continue to play the WM game?)

    97. Macart says:

      I see one avenue of the Lord Advocate’s challenge is supposedly based on the articles of the treaty of union itself.

      A senior Scottish Government source confirmed last night that the Lord Advocate would “strongly make the case on a legal basis” that Holyrood “must have a say” on Article 50.

      In another development, the Lord Advocate will argue that triggering Article 50 in the way that Prime Minister May wants would be a breach of the 1707 Act of Union itself.

      Article XVIII of the Treaty of Union states that “no alteration be made in laws which concern private right, except for the evident utility of the subjects within Scotland”. Today’s National

      This could get loud rapidly.

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      Proud Cybernat
      Timing?

    99. Liz g says:

      Bug’s Bunny 3.40
      The wizard with the fake power is the queen.
      And I see the Emerald City as Westminster.
      Independence is Back Home.

      But the main message is.
      When most people are asked.. What does Dorothy need…they usually say …to go home…

      But that’s not true..To go home…..is what Dorothy… Wants..
      What Dorothy.. need’s..is the …power to get there..
      And as it turns out.. She has always had that..she just needed to believe in it and use it..

      Lesson for us Scot’s in there somewhere.
      Brilliant Analogy.

    100. Thepnr says:

      @Liz g

      Ah, yes. Now it is all coming together 🙂

    101. Proud Cybernat says:

      Protecting our rights…

      http://imgur.com/a/5mNeW

    102. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 4.46
      They don’t cause they can’t.
      They have been instructed by us their Sovereigns to continue to work in the Westminster parliament and operate within it’s rules.
      That’s what the No vote did.

    103. Proud Cybernat says:

      “They don’t cause they can’t.
      They have been instructed by us their Sovereigns to continue to work in the Westminster parliament and operate within it’s rules.
      That’s what the No vote did.

      Thanks Liz. I get that. I was thinking that the SNP (after SE2016) already have a mandate from the people as a material change in circumstances (from the 2014 poitical landscape) has happened–rUK voted Leave and it looks like they may be taking Scotland out of the EU against our will.

      So, we call IndyRef#2 on that basis. WM tells us that we need a Section 30 order to prevent the result being contested later in court.

      We are, supposedly, a sovereign people so why the hell are WM saying we need what effectively amounts to their ‘permission’ to hold IndyRef#2 when we already have permission from the people of Scotland? Why can’t we just tell them to ram their section 30 order?

    104. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 5.15
      I love that movie it has so many messages on so many levels.
      While it is supposed to be about the Gold Standard.
      Atheists claim it’s message about fake power as well.
      But I had never thought of applying it to our Indy movement before,I read Bug’s post.
      Now I am seeing Indy Ref 1,as the hot air balloon that could have potentially taken Dorothy home.
      And Indy Ref 2,as the Ruby slipper’s that did.

      I’ll get ma coat..

    105. Lollysmum says:

      For all you Wings pensioners out there, I hope you heed the call of Pensioners for Indy in today’s National. Apparently they’re looking to relaunch Pensioners for Independence shortly. If you are interested then email: pensionersforindependence [at] gmail [dot] com

      I have

    106. handclapping says:

      Great cartoon again; our Chris loves colouring! 🙂

      Who else is wondering if Kez manages this all on her own? Does she have a Privy Council to advise her and if so who is on it? I wonder because it takes somebody of McTernanesque pig headedness to make such a pig’s breakfast of political relevance in Scotland and she does not seem to me to be such an inflexible person. I dont think she can pray stupidity in her defence as Willie Rennie can either so it has to be the camel effect of her committee.

    107. Legerwood says:

      MacArthur @ 4.47

      It looks as if the section that you quote about the Articles in the Treaty of Union may be based on a section of the briefing paper on Art 50 prepared for the Scottish Government by Professor Douglas-Scott

      Sorry don’t have link but easy enough to Google.

    108. Macart says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      We don’t.

      We could hold advisory referendums every day of the week and on winning one based on independence our government would spend a great deal of time in courts fighting over every teeny item of settlement.

      The S30 secured a mutually agreed dissolution which compelled the loser to adhere to mutually beneficial dissolution of the treaty of union with a no detriment clause. Or continuation of the union with again no detriment in terms of devolved settlement (ayup, we’ll get back to them on that to… eventually).

      But that’s the difference in the two types of referendum in a nutshell. One has an agreed upon and legal outcome compelled by law and parliamentary legislation (both parliaments). The other as has been discovered in the case of the EU referendum is basically only morally binding requiring a willing parliament to agree legislation to pass.

    109. Thepnr says:

      Yesssss

      Murray beats Raonic 5-7 7-6 7-6 in the ATP Champions Tennis tournament to progress to the final tomorrow against Djokovic or Nishikori who play tonight.

      Well done again Murray.

    110. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat 5.29
      It is partly brinkmanship and partly perception.
      It’s not permission as such ,just the impression that it is.
      Think of it in European terms.
      Westminster don’t need permission to vote to leave.
      So as half of question time keep saying what’s the hold up.
      Well the hold up is the leagal stuff.
      The EU wrote an article 50 as the rules for how you sort it all out if you vote to leave.
      That’s roughly what The Edinburgh Agreement was except the Edinburgh Agreement was time barred,and has run out.
      So…. Article 50 doesn’t stop a vote happing or prevent leaving but it’s always in place to define the terms and conditions for doing so.
      Our documents ran out in 2014 so we need another one.
      Otherwise we could spend a lot of time and treasure in the courts.
      Westminster will try to use misconception about this as a delay.
      And I am just waiting for….the government has to much on with Brexit,we will get to you.
      And the MSM…. wait your turn Scotland,you can’t monopolize all the attention.
      My answer though is..well is that not what Ruth,Fluffy and Kez are for, do they not represent you in Scotland.
      If you are busy give it to them.
      If not tell us why not.

    111. heedtracker says:

      Brexit’s going to make the rich richer and everyone else poorer, lets blow half a billion quid one of the royal’s dozen or so palaces.

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/make-royals-pay-for-palace-renovation

    112. Proud Cybernat says:

      Righto–so, bottom line. The people of Scotland are only as sovereign as WM telling us (after we have voted to have another IndyRef), “Leave it with us. We’ll get back to you. At some point. Whenever.”

      Okay–glad we cleared that up.

    113. Breeks says:

      “They don’t cause they can’t.
      They have been instructed by us their Sovereigns to continue to work in the Westminster parliament and operate within it’s rules.
      That’s what the No vote did.”

      Well kinda, but that isn’t the whole story. It might get around our elected reps having a mandate to represent us at Westminster, but it doesn’t necessarily help Westminster out of its pickle with incompatible sovereignties.

      Power at Westminster is implemented through sovereignty stemming from the Divine Right of Kings. At no stage is it ratified by Scottish “popular” sovereignty if the act occurs after our MPs have pledged an oath to The Queen. For Westminster to work in that scenario would require every act or paper ratified twice, once to satisfy England’s divine sovereignty, and again, separately, to satisfy Scotland’s.

      Just like the lords who signed up to the Act of Union without appropriate authority to do it, by instructing our representatives to act unconstitutionally in a house which does not respect Scottish sovereignty, aren’t we exceeding our own sovereign capacity trying to abdicate our sovereignty to any legislature where Scottish sovereignty is not supreme?

      It’s complicated, but the bottom line is we cannot empower Westminster with our sovereignty even if we wanted to. We cannot shift our sovereign authority. At best, (or should that be worst) we can agree to share sovereign responsibility, that is for everything short of sovereignty itself, but only ever share it, never combine it as Westminster regularly presumes to do as a single sovereignty.

      I might be being pedantic, but the issue requires it. The Act of Union is fundamentally flawed. It joins that which can only ever be shared, never joined. Joint sovereignty requires a working interface between the Divine Right of Kings and Scotland’s popular civic sovereignty and the two are simply and irremediably incompatible. That isn’t how Westminster is functioning. It acts and functions as if Scottish sovereignty has ceased to exist and has been assimilated into the English Divine sovereignty.

      We are party to the comedy, but I don’t believe true Scottish sovereignty has been properly enacted or represented for over 300 years. It remains dormant, and pristine, waiting for us to rediscover its power. We cannot recognise Scottish sovereignty properly without recognising the impropriety of Westminster’s “joint” sovereignty. It’s is where matter meets antimatter, and even an outright electoral majority is a lesser, inferior power.

    114. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 6.10
      No … That’s what they would like to happen.
      But they can only do that if Scotland co-operate.
      And….well….em..oh dear.

    115. Terry says:

      @robert peffers

      Thank you for all your wonderful posts. I have learned so much from you that I should have learned at school or university.

      On another note I heard Nigel farage banging on that the English people are sovereign. I’m away to tell him it ain’t so. But the Scots are. This fact alone means nicola has no choice but to challenge brexit as 62% of us voted to remain.

    116. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 6.16
      Yes I agree it’s all smoke and mirrors…. always has been.
      It’s just most Scot’s never asked….how is that arrangement ever going to work.
      And those that did ask had no way of putting the information out en mass.
      Until now.
      It ( This Union ) doesn’t work…it never has.
      And because of the Two different Soverenty’s it never can.
      It’s an enigma wrapped in a riddle shielding a lie.
      Even trying to explain it in every day language makes you sound insane and as if you are contradicting yourself.

    117. Cactus says:

      “There’s no place like home..”

      Click-clock, tick-tock.

      X

    118. brewsed says:

      This is the text of an article in the Telegraph you may find interesting.
      https://waitingfortax.com/author/jolyonmaugham/

      The salient paragraph on whether, once triggered, Article 50 can be withdrawn is:

      ”Nicola Sturgeon can explode that cosy consensus. She could instruct the Lord Advocate to seek a reference to the Luxembourg court so that it can answer the question. And she should.”

      Explode indeed.

      Perhaps this is why TM is being urged not to pursue the appeal.

    119. Macart says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      ‘The people of Scotland are only as sovereign as WM telling us’

      Nope.

      Both referendums can bind, instruct or mandate, but they have different legal outcomes is what I’m saying.

      If we hold a referendum without an S30 it advises and mandates a willing SG to ‘seek’ an independence settlement. Another route is a political party seeking a specific mandate to do same at say a GE. Independence would follow, but NOT without a great deal of court time haggling over the dissolution detail.

      What the S30 does is compel both parties to a mutually agreed upon dissolution and settlement without recourse to challenge.

      The difference between an amicable divorce and a courtroom slugfest. The divorce still happens regardless.

      More importantly independence can only happen if the Scottish population want it in any kind of ballot. The SG are nothing if not consistent in this. The sovereign will and instruction of the electorate is exactly what they will follow.

      Right now the ONLY mandate the SG have is to hold a referendum in specific circumstance. The circumstance has not as yet occurred and in fact may even be headed off yet depending on the actions of Westminster.

    120. Liz g says:

      Macart @ 4.47
      Just reading back and saw your post on The Treaty of the Union making it into the Court case.
      This is brilliant news,made my day.
      Here’s hoping that the Judge’s let the arguments in.
      No wonder I am hearing May is being advised to pull out
      I really thought that they wouldn’t go for it and stick to devolution matters.
      Do you have any idea, that if the Judge’s don’t hear the arguments can we then use them in Europe?
      I don’t mean rule against what they did allow in.
      I mean if they ruled Aritical 18 not revelent to what they are deciding?

    121. bugsbunny says:

      Liz g,

      You’re so correct. Thinking about it, the Emerald City is Westminster, the false hope that is misleading us all. The Yellow Brick Road, paved with good intentions, leading us all to hell, with the Emperor being the Crown that they all bow down to. And who is leading Dorothy on this false trail of tears? The Tin Man (Davidson), the Scarecrow (Dugsdale) and and the Cowardly Lion (Rennie).

      We have the Ruby Slippers, (The Will to do it) all along. Home is where the heart is, and freedom awaits us there. Don’t let the Wicked Witch of the East, our false friends (the three Amigos/Unionists) fool us again. Let’s shoot the Orange flying monkeys with our golden arrows of Truth. Let’s get Dorothy Home, Safe and Sound.

    122. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 19 November, 2016 at 4:46 pm:

      “So why, Robert, does Westminster still think that a second Indy Ref can only be permitted with its say so (section 30 order)?”

      This isn’t the easiest thing in the World to get a grip on, Proud Cybernat and I’ve had a lifetime to get to grips with it and I realise that has more than one effect. Not least that once aware of it you see the flaws that other have not even noticed yet as they happen. The other is you go looking for information and then find it.

      I believe that it is not until you begin to know what it means that you begin to figure it out properly but I’ll try and explain it in a slightly different way.

      The first thing is that the majority of Scots really do not know they are legally sovereign. I’ve seen this since I was a wee laddie.

      Take for example the law of trespass. There is no such English style law in Scotland and Scots have always had a legal right to roam because they are sovereign and thus own Scotland. Yet I’ve experience many examples of landowners taking illegal steps to stop people from entering their property. Even lairds and gamekeepers brandishing closed shotguns at people. Farmers placing large boulders and rocks across laybys to stop people parking.

      As legally sovereign we can go where we please with these restrictions, We must not cause any damage where we go and we must respect gates so that we leave them as we find them. If closed we must close them behind us.

      We must respect the landowner’s privacy and not go too close to their dwelling places. And if we can we must stick to clearly marked paths, tracks and roads.

      Yet I’d bet everyone has seen notices, “Trespassers will be prosecuted”, in Scotland? They will not be prosecuted the worse they will be is sued for any damage they do.

      As to why will the SG not take action and defy Westminster the answer is because the SG are NOT sovereign as a government but are as individuals. The people are sovereign and it is the people and only the people who can defy anyone at all in the World but only in Scotland itself.

      If the SNP, or any Scottish government were to even attempt to, “put the people up to it”, you can imagine the Yoon uproar at that. This is where the YES movement has the greatest power. They are the Grassroots – i.e. the sovereign power – BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE THE MAJORITY.

      Then the SG can say they have a mandate to act but they dare not be seen to be putting the Grassroots, “up to it”. It has to come from the sovereign people themselves.

      So lets look at the two legal sovereignty kingdoms.

      Until The Bruce killed the Red Comyn Scotland was, like the rest of Christendom ruled under the law of Divine Right of Kings. Then Robert the Bruce killed
      John, “The Red Comyn”, at Greyfriars Churchyard on 10 February 1306. The Bruce had called the meeting and the pair left their swords outside and entered the church.

      A fight broke out on the alter steps and Bruce stabbed The Red Comyn. First of all we will never know if Bruce killed or only injured the Comyn for Roger de Kirkpatrick said ‘You doubt. Ise mac siccar.’ – (You’re not sure? I’ll make sure. No one thus knows what happened and whether it was self defence.

      The King of England saw his chance and had the ear of the Pope and had the Pope excommunicate Bruce who was crowned King after the other contender died.

      The result was that as Divine Right was the law then the King owned the people and that meant all Scots were excommunicate too. That, in those days was catastrophic.

      This prompted the drawing up and posting to the Pope the Declaration of Arbroath that declared Scotland an independent kingdom but it also changed the law of Scotland by making the people sovereign and the monarch the protector of the people’s sovereignty. That is still the basis of Scots law.

      Probably the main reason the Pope accepted the Declaration was because the King of England and he had fallen out and the English King set himself up as Head of the Church of England. Not until 1688 and having still failed to annex Scotland were the English to stop being ruled under the law of Divine Right.

      Even that was caused by Scotland and James I of England inheriting the English crown. Who can blame him for moving to England where he was sovereign from Scotland where he was not?

      In 1688 the English Parliament had what they called, “The Glorious Revolution”, and deposed the monarch who wore both crowns but with each kingdom still independent. They just assumed that this meant the English Monarch being throw out also stopped him being King of Scots but as Scotland was still independent this was not so.

      That is what started the Jacobite uprisings against the monarchy the English Parliament imported to replace the Stewart King. These were King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange. However, as these were House of Orange royals the English parliament would only give then the crown of England on condition they legally delegated their royal sovereign powers to the parliament of England.

      In an effort to make sure King Billy did not give the crown of England to the house of Orange they had the legal guys set a court judgement, thus a precedent, that the sovereignty, just legally delegated to the parliament by the monarchs, was the property of the kingdom and not personally that of the monarch.

      Yet they still deemed the Monarch was the sovereign who owned everything and everyone. That made the three country Kingdom of England legally a, “Constitutional Monarchy but, remember, in 1688 Scotland was still an independent kingdom.

      Which was why there was to be Jacobite uprising until almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed. It fact it was the reason that the parliament, that still calls 1603 the Union of the Crowns, had to force Scotland to sign the Treaty of Union that actually states that the law of Scotland will remain forever independent. It has to be because the two legal system are incompatible.

      … Surely if the people of Scotland entrust their sovereignty to its elected SNP representatives and those representatives overwhelmingly decide they want to hold another IndyRef then why don’t they just go ahead and do it?”

      Because, as I explain above they dare not chance being accused of being the instigators of a revolution against Westminster. It has to come from the grassroots to the SG and not the other way round. Heaven knows Wee Nicola has dropped enough hints about being mandated to do things. The lass is a trained lawyer and knows the implications.

      It now rests with the sovereign people of Scotland to tell the SG what to do. This is NOT England where things work the other way round.

      Now you can see just how counter productive Rocks constant niggling is when he claims that the Scottish people’s legal sovereignty is a myth and does not exist.

      The point about sovereignty is that you have to believe you have it to use it. Westminster wrongly believes they have it over Scotland and they use it. Rock wrongly believes they have sovereignty and thinks the people of Scotland do not.

      So they, (Westminster), use it and Rock decries even the thought of using it and defers to a Westminster sovereignty that does not legally actually exist.

      I’ve asked him to produce any evidence he has for his belief and I know no such evidence exists.

    123. Macart says:

      @Liz g

      I reckon that’s a question for the LPW. That fella is the real legal wiz. How and ever if anything is set to affect laws pertaining to or concern public rights its Brexit. ECHR is intertwined with a great deal of Scottish law and legislation in many areas.

    124. bugsbunny says:

      The ending of the Wizard of Oz. “She had to find that all by herself” surely alludes to the Scot’s after muffing it up big time first time round, we will not surely be fooled again? Although we won’t be missing the three amigos? Well maybe the Scarecrow (Dugsdale) for a bit of comic relief. The Tinman (Davidson) can rust as far as Dorothy (Sturgeon) is concerned.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f1SVvHFh6Y

    125. Liz g says:

      Bug’s bunny @ 7.20
      And thank you very much for such an inspirational post above one of my favourite movies.

    126. Meg merrilees says:

      Robert Peffers what a beautifully laid out post and so clearly argued. Thankyou.

      Surely, the very thing Nicola did immediately after the Brexit vote was to travel to Europe and take the message that Scotland is separate nation and different country from England and I think that are now beginning to understand that. However, is it not the case that they are bound to deal with the UK until such time as Scotland becomes Independent or the other half of the Union leaves the EU?

      There’s no doubting that legal minds throughout the land are wrestling with this.

      Here are some links if you can brace yourself to read through them.

      This link lays out the Scottish and Welsh Gov. argument for the Appeal and some conclusions.
      https://andersonstrathern.co.uk/news-insight/article-50-legal-challenges-an-update/

      https://www.headoflegal.com/2016/11/04/why-the-high-court-got-the-law-wrong-about-brexit/

      This is an opinion form someone who thinks Article 18 is possibly not a good argument.
      http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/9596/Aileen-McHarg-Brexit-Article-50-and-the-Acts-of-Union.aspx

      This link is the ruling on the Indy camp at Holyrood. Article 18 of the Treaty of Union was used in the defence of the camp, (May 2016 – so it is still considered a valid law). The ruling states the complete Article 18 at point 39.

      Point 46 is also worth a read… “the narrower argument relating to legislation concerning private rights would raise important constitutional issues concerning the sovereignty of the UK Parliament”

      http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=b56813a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

      Loved the Alice in Brexit land analogy.

      Forget Bruce and the Spider – it’s Andy Mussy for me -Never say die! Well done that amazing man

    127. Shiners says:

      Robert Peffers @1920. Fantastic explanation! Like many others on here, I think your knowledge and patience are amazing. Thank-you

    128. Thepnr says:

      @bugsbunny

      Eventually though after all their trials, the Scarecrow got a brain, Tin Man got a heart and the Cowardly Lion found courage.

      The wicked witch and her flying monkeys were defeated, the Emperor exposed as a fraud. Only then did Dorothy return home.

    129. Meg merrilees says:

      Blast this lap top – it’s always ‘correcting’ my typing to some ridiculous new word!

      Well done Andy MURRAY!

    130. K1 says:

      ‘It now rests with the sovereign people of Scotland to tell the SG what to do. This is NOT England where things work the other way round.’

      Ergo the ‘Scottish Government’ has commissioned a mass study for the people of Scotland. Let’s give the Sovereign people a chance to respond to our government’s request for our input so that we can instruct them on our wishes:

      Think there’s only a couple of weeks to go till this closes….

      http://www.survey2016.scot/take_the_survey

    131. Croompenstein says:

      FFS We can do it..

      Scotland win with the last kick of the game..

      Scotland 19 Argentina 16

      Oor Andy the number one tennis player in the known universe through to the final…

      too wee, too poor etc……

    132. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terry says: 19 November, 2016 at 6:37 pm:

      “Thank you for all your wonderful posts. I have learned so much from you that I should have learned at school or university.”

      I was blessed by having two of the finest teachers I ever knew. The brother was a primary school teacher and the sister a secondary school history teacher.

      In those days teaching was a matter of belting the knowledge into the pupils. Yet I never saw either one ever belt anyone yet neither had occasion to belt anyone. They made the lessons a pleasure to take part in.

      “On another note I heard Nigel farage banging on that the English people are sovereign. I’m away to tell him it ain’t so. But the Scots are. This fact alone means nicola has no choice but to challenge brexit as 62% of us voted to remain.”

      By chance I already posted tonight that Nicola, a trained lawyer, knows that anything in the shape of independence or sovereignty has to come from the grassroots or all hell will hit the media with accusations of the SNP stirring things up.

      You will note, though, how many hints the lady has dropped about being given a mandate? Not you may see demanding she be given a mandate.

      It is also becoming apparent that some in the EU and the EC are beginning to realise that the United Kingdom is a bipartite Union of Kingdoms and not a single country.

      However, the EU and EC too are restricted in what they can say and do. They must play by the rules. Hence May being told there will be no negotiations until the United Kingdom makes a formal request to leave the EU.

      I also note that there are now some of the Tory party getting cold feet while 60 others, including 7 former cabinet ministers. are screaming for May to quit the customs union and single market when the United Kingdom leaves the EU.

      Then there are others who are pleading with May to drop the appeal against the ruling MPs must vote on Brexit.

      It looks like the Tory party as well as Labour are tearing themselves apart.

    133. G H Graham says:

      Feel the Conservative & Unionist love folks …

      Sir Oliver Letwin warned on BBC Radio 4’s Today Programme that the Supreme Court hearing could see ministers’ powers outside Parliament curbed.

      So he suggested that by bringing a “fast and tightly timetabled bill” to Parliament, without any constraints on its negotiating power, meant that it avoided the devolved administrations getting some rights or even some veto powers” over triggering Article 50.

      The British Government will, if it can get away with it, deny the people of Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland any influence whatsoever on the Brexit negotiations.

      And that of course leaves only England. If anyone needed proof of England = Britain = England, there it is folks.

      Better Together my arse. You YES yet?

    134. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 7.40
      Or you could say she helped to get them what they wanted before she left them there,cause she’s nice like that.
      But at no point was she staying or expressed any desire to take them with her.

      Jist Sayin…

    135. Thepnr says:

      Educate the Labour voters lacking knowledge, appeal to the Tory voter to show some compassion for those less well off and encourage the Lib voter to believe that Scotland has the means and the ability to rule themselves.

      Then we will have Independence.

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      @Meg merrilees says: : 19 November, 2016 at 7:49 pm:

      “Blast this lap top – it’s always ‘correcting’ my typing to some ridiculous new word!
      Well done Andy MURRAY!”

      Ah! That problem again. There is a setting somewhere to sort that out but I’m hanged if I can remember where it is on different browsers. It is not actually the spelling checker at fault but the text predictor thingy that tries to second guess what you are trying to say.

      My spelling is not of the best, mainly though it is typos due to arthritis and the spelling checker usually picks them up.

      However, before I turned off the text predictor I had lots of really crazy errors. Particularly when I lapsed back into the, “Lallans tune o the Scots leid”,(Lowland dialect of the Scots language).

      Ah! found it in Microsoft Edge – It is way down the bottom. If you click on the three dots in the top right hand top corner then click settings and scroll down you find the Advanced button. Down the bottom on that bit is the page predictor setting.

      Can’t remember where, or if, it is on Internet Explorer.

    137. Grouse Beater says:

      Macart: “Article XVIII of the Treaty of Union: “No alteration be made in laws which concern private right, except for the evident utility of the subjects within Scotland”.”

      Strange times when England’s supreme court pronounces Scotland unjustly shafted.

      Have there been unionist cries to close the court down?

    138. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Blair McDougall would surely get a part too, eh?

      ‘Pay no attention to that tuba behind the curtain!’

      🙂

    139. ronnie anderson says:

      Kezia’s ah dab hawn wie ah Purdy paint brush, pity she’s no uasin ah Purdy shotgun an dey some real damage tae hirsel.

    140. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      O/T but a very important piece of work.

      Friends of Willie Macrae have concluded their crowd funded investigation by two respected ex detectives.

      http://markmacnicol.com/willie-mcrae/

      It is very detailed and impressive report.

      Not surprisingly, the Scottish press do not come out very well but is it a glowing example of the power of independent crowd funded investigators to get to the truth after many years

      Hopefully, this will give some piece to the Macrae family and the witnesses who have been hounded by the Press for years.

      Willie Macrae can finally be remembered as an exceptional lawyer and patriot and not for the circumstances around his unfortunate death.

    141. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 8.57
      Blair McDougal….defo…mayor of munchkin city in the country of the land of Oz.
      Darling…Dr that declared the witch dead.
      Lollypop gang….Jim Murphy’s Labour party.

    142. Croompenstein says:

      @Hoss

      I never knew there was a memorial to Willie in Israel..

      https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/795355845274038272

    143. Tinto Chiel says:

      Croompenstein: I think Willie formulated their maritime law. There is a forest commemorating that in Israel, I believe.

      He was Mountbatten’s driver in WW2 and learned a lot about The Establishment’s secrets, to his ultimate cost.

    144. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @Croompenstien,

      Yes – 3000 trees – he was a very respected international lawyer who set up Israel’s maritime laws and also was a supporter of Indian Independence.

      Ex Navy during WW2 – surprisingly he was Mountbatten’s aide-de-camp.

      There was a play about him – see the links on Mark MacNicols website.

      But please read the investigation – it realy does expose the lies and misinformation from a lazy, condescending and unapologetic Scottish Press.

    145. Liz g says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 9.54
      Didn’t know he worked for Mountbatten.
      Had heard though Mountbatten was for Independence.
      No that he’s somebody I would want on our side.
      But the link with Willie McRae certainly could explain it.

    146. Dr Jim says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Am I understanding this correctly Robert
      The English crown handed its sovereignty to Parliament thus removing it from the people of that country?
      and at that time was it an English Parliament?

      I just want to clear something up in my thinking on this
      in that if this is correct Scotlands people are the only ones in the UK who are actually a sovereign people

      I understand you don’t do legal Robert but by taking part in the referendum at all does it sound like we might have ceeded our sovereignty away voluntarily even though our vote was different and would that sound like the basis of the UK contrary argument

      Where’s Andrew Tickell when you want him

    147. heedtracker says:

      BBC Politics
      1 hr ·
      The PM has a small majority, so how can she navigate her government through the trickiest of times?

      Facebook BBC. It is a tory pickle what they’re in but massed ranks of tory BBC led meeja gimps will sell it triumphantly as ever. Farage was belting it out on BBC r4 Any Tory Questions show today, long, loud, up the toryboys. He is loud old Farage. Although its likely BBC sound gimps beef him up, like the way they fiddle with Nic Sturgeon’s mike.

    148. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel – new avatar. So who is this? Has Thomas Muir retired?

    149. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37954098

      If Labour, the SNP and other smaller parties work together on an issue, they need only to attract a handful of unhappy Conservatives – seven – to their side and the government risks defeat.

      One SNP mention and the collective “other” is usual sneaky creepy BBC style reportage. Lovely stateswomanly BBC photo of catastrophic PM and the ornate iron work on the pavement either side of the No.10 door are Edwardian, for scraping shit off your shoes, horse shit, Great British horse shit.

    150. Cactus says:

      I see a big half-moon a-rising..

      In the city of Glasgow.

      CCR’d it X.

    151. Meg merrilees says:

      Dr. Jim

      In the Indy camp case they argued that ‘so long as an hundred of us remain’…

      so maybe we can argue that ‘so long as an hundred of us remain’ pro-indy then we are still sovereign – but then, the Indy camp didn’t win.. Hmmm!

      Surely, by voting to ‘Remain’ in the UK we were only voting to remain within the terms of the 1707 Union which recognises our sovereignty?

      So wish i was a constitutional lawyer, what an amazing time they must be having.

    152. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 10.03
      No the Crown in England represents only the person of the Monarch.
      It did give it’s Soverenty to parliament to use but not to own,and at no time was that Soverenty ever the people’s.
      And yes it was only for England.
      We in Scotland can’t give our Soverenty to anyone
      No matter what.
      Only God can do that.
      Everything thing else yes but we can’t give it away.
      The English Crown can’t give it to parliament to keep either,but that one is a bit more complicated.

    153. Macart says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Heh. Well according to the Mail the judiciary are enemies of the people these days. 😉

    154. Thepnr says:

      I’ll accept that the people reading Wings are living in a bubble. So too are our opposites, active Unionists living in their own wee bubble.

      The Wings bubble has been growing though since it’s inception 5 years ago. It is now a fairly big bubble and undoubtedly the biggest bubble in the Independence debate.

      The thing about the Unionist bubble that is most obvious to me is that it has blogs such as Effie Deans or twitter commentators that are lauded such as Brian Spanner. This is a bubble that must burst.

      There is too much hatred and you feel it must implode, though Scottish journalists like McColm, Crichton, Nelson and Massie manage to blow enough hot air into the bubble that it remains inflated.

      I sense a change though, the journalists are gasping for breath with the huge weight of the truth bearing against their chests. Their voices are dimming at exactly the same time as ours are getting louder.

      More and more now are seeking the truth and ignoring traditional media. They are very scared, they see the writing on the wall, the end game is near and Brexit will be the final straw.

      Independence is our right and it is closer than it has ever been.

    155. chic mcgregor says:

      1998 Scotland Act
      Plus subsequent amendment in 2012

      Schedule 5 detailing the reserved status for constitutional matters.

      That is the main justification Westminster has for claiming an agreed transfer of sovereignty.

      Whether legal opinion agrees that it had the necessary mandate in ’97 is another matter.

      Would certainly like to see them prove that any sizeable percentage of the voters had any idea this was in the Act when they voted.

      But that is how they will fly it.

    156. Tinto Chiel says:

      Liz g: there’s all sorts of speculation regarding knowledge acquired by Willie from Mountbatten on Establishment sex crimes. I didn’t know MB was a fan of Independence, tbh.

      Capella: I knew I couldn’t get it past you. Thomas is just having a wee rest: he’s done so much for our cause.

      Prize awarded for identification: not a good one, I have to add, but participants can enjoy the intellectual stimulation or not, as the case may be. Life may be too short, of course.

      I am enjoying the potential meltdown of May pushing too far on the constitutional question.

      Keep on truckin’, doll.

      Water wears away the stone.

      Lovely water, this.

    157. Liz g says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 10.28
      One would almost think you make a backhanded reference to the Water of Life there Sir.
      But whit dae ah know!!!

    158. Meg merrilees says:

      O/T

      Th UK North Sea Oil Industry has generated over £330 BILLION in tax revenue in the last almost 50 years.

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/finncap-north-sea-oil-industry-analysis-prices-supply-decommissioning-brexit-2016-11

    159. Tinto Chiel says:

      Wouldn’t sully my lips, Liz g.

      😛

    160. Effijy says:

      Before Westminster drags Scotland out of the EU, against our wishes, is there some kind of EU Grant that could be applied for that might give the North British Labour Accounting unit:

      A, A Spine,

      B, A sense of Direction,

      C, A Brain between them?

    161. crazycat says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Tin Eye told me he’s B Traven/ Ret Marut.

    162. Sinky says:

      Just when you thought Westminster UK politics couldn’t get any more crazy…. press reports that Blair is making a come back to sort out Brexit with Jim Murphy as his special advisor!

      That will go well.

    163. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can’t vouch for the historical accuracy of this segment from ‘Scotland’s Story’ (Tom Steel) but daresay any of us would struggle to imagine a mainstream broadcaster putting a fraction of the effort into any similar production right now.

      Worth watching, if only to see some eccentric ‘real’ aristocrats, and Brian Cox:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si_GTppUgg8&index=3&list=PLi77nHBEunGTUgJFPfU0CIgNJYvJ7Sh8C

    164. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel – Google is too good. But who is B Traven? A mystery.

    165. Liz g says:

      Chic McGregor @ 10.28
      I think they may push that way too.
      But it carries with it the risk of the people who you quite rightly say wouldn’t have known about it feeling tricked.

      That’s one more thing that won’t fly for them because too many know and will shout it from the rooftops.

      This Union has always depended on the ignorance of the people,for them to be able to pass things into law.
      And more to the point keep it there.

      If and it’s a big if they think they got control of our Soverenty,theres plenty of politicians who know it’s not set in stone and can be reclaimed.

      The willingness of our politicians to act has always been our only stumbling block.
      The people were always persuadable.

    166. heedtracker says:

      What BBC vote tory gimps do not permit on their BBC networks, a response from opposition. This one is for Sir Ollie’s stuff Brexit waffle BBC r4 Today show, proprietor Sir Nic Robinson(Sir Nic’s had cancer you know.)

      SNP International Affairs spokesperson, Alex Salmond MP, has mocked the procession of top Tories on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme who called on the Prime Minister to abandon the Supreme Court Appeal because of the “risk” that Scotland might be awarded “some rights”

      Mr Salmond said:

      “Sir Oliver Letwin and co. have now blurted out the true blue Tory attitude towards Scotland. They would even rather abandon the Brexit appeal than take any chance of the Supreme Court being sensitive to Scottish-European concerns.

      “Every Tory in Scotland should cringe with embarrassment as the Tory contempt for Scotland’s rights as a nation has been laid bare.

      “The trouble for the Tories in Scotland is that their Westminster colleagues have been caught telling the truth about their contempt for Scotland.”

    167. Liz g says:

      Effijy @ 10.42
      Hark at you….ahm no THAT posh I’ll settle fur a brain CELL.

    168. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Sinky –

      Blair & Murphy?

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Ah, now that would be the proper dream-team…

      All we need is for McTernan to voice support for them and that’s us home and dry.

      Soo-perb.

    169. Tinto Chiel says:

      Spot on, crazycat.

      Don’t tell everyone,ffs.

      Too many intellectuals on this site.

      Jeezo, man!

    170. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Google is too good. But who is B Traven? A mystery.”

      True, Capella, but who are we all?

      That is our strength. Meanwhile, Londinium founders in the swamp (poetry).

    171. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 11.00
      RE….The McWizzard Of Oz
      I had Gordon Brown penciled in as the grumpy old apple tree,who doesn’t go anywhere but just throws things out there at people.
      But now I am not so sure that it shouldn’t be MacTernan.
      What say you Ian?

    172. heedtracker says:

      BBC news

      Labour’s McDonnell backs £369m Buckingham Palace repairs
      5 hours ago
      From the section UK

      Shadow chancellor John McDonnell, who describes himself as a republican, has said he backs the £369m taxpayer-funded restoration of Buckingham Palace.
      He said the Queen’s residence was a “national monument” that needed to be preserved.”

      Republican Labour in touch with the UKOK working classes. Its not really up with Vice President of CND Jeremy Corbyn voting Aye for Trident 2 but its nae bad.

    173. Liz g says:

      Heedtracker 11.30
      Any mention of Barnet Consequentials there.
      We have a fair few Monuments ourselves?

    174. Stoker says:

      Some WOS Archive links now over on O/T.

    175. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lizg (11.15) –

      Brown as Angry apple-tree!

      Soo-perbus Maximus.

      Liz, you do realise that Greg Moodie endlessly plumbs this place for ideas and images?

      🙂

      Don’t be surprised if we’re soon introduced to a Dr Who-style regeneration of Gordzilla in The National (on Mondays, only 60p…)

      😉

      (Seriously – imagine what Moodie could do with the whole Wizard of Oz story?)

    176. Gary45% says:

      Some of us of a certain age will remember.
      “Once upon a time”…. Jackanory.
      Well that sums up Brexit and every other load of bollo*ks that comes from the UK branch of the Rothschild Zionist.
      Oh aye, another classic Chris

    177. Cadogan Enright says:

      That’s not Kezia in the corner, it’s Teresa May.

      Also @ Mike Cassidy – what’s your nonsense in archiving National articles? It’s one of the few we encourage links to

    178. Effijy says:

      The £369m taxpayer-funded restoration of Buckingham Palace, seems like good value?

      Is that the same amount that the Brexit Leaders all promised the NHS every week?

      Surely the Plebs could go without medical treatment for one week to help Madge & Phil gold plate the lead on the Palace roof?.

      Just as soon as the Bedroom Tax People find out she has as many bedroom as Crowns, she will be relocated to Terraced 2 up, 2 down in Luton.

    179. Capella says:

      “Republican Labour in touch with the UKOK working classes. Its not really up with Vice President of CND Jeremy Corbyn voting Aye for Trident 2 but its nae bad.”

      I watched The Four Horsemen tonight. Good documentary on the venality, corruption and contempt for law that charectarises our Western oligarchies.

      What is to be done?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fbvquHSPJU

    180. Sunniva says:

      O/T but there’s a campaign now for Californian independence from Trumpland called Yes California and they even have a Blue Book.
      http://www.yescalifornia.org

    181. heedtracker says:

      Liz g says:
      19 November, 2016 at 11:37 pm
      Heedtracker 11.30
      Any mention of Barnet Consequentials there.

      No. We get to get lick the gates of Balmoral, couple of quid a lick. Its ok though as they money doesnt got to Brenda, it all goes to the Crown estate thingee, what is not royal but gives all the money to the queen, for stuff, like palaces.

      Republican Labour hypocrites are hardly news but its probably going to be CND vice pres JC that will push the button, such is the way of barking mad teamGBists these days. Blair’s also making a comeback and today was

      http://www.worldtoiletday.info/

    182. Orri says:

      The HoC exerts supremacy over the HoL in matters covered in their manifesto because they have been mandated by the people to do so. From a Scottish perspective that means that that’s an acknowledgement of where sovereignty derives. Any reference as to where constitutional matters may be decided only determines which of our elected representatives gets to do so. At the moment Scotland has 50+ SNP MPs. Any bullshit along the lines of somehow having tricked us in to relinquishing our sovereignty is simply that.

      The Scotland Act specifically mentions that the First Minister is the one who advises the Queen on devolved matters. The panic in the Tory ranks isn’t about granting Scotland powers it’s more correctly about having them officially recognised as existing.

      The Telegraph article is nonsense on at least three seperate levels.

      First, in that we’ve been down the Member State being the one who must ask route in 2014. Why should we bother doing so now.

      Second, they would love to tighten the anger against Sturgeon and the SNP and her following the path recommended in the Telegraph of all places certainly fits that bill.

      Third, why should Sturgeon go to the trouble of removing the argument that A50 has a potential knock on effect on domestic law which not only means she would get to veto RP if it wasn’t already of the table but in addition as it would involve devolved matters then Holyrood would need to give Legislative Consent? Note the sneaky assumption that Sturgeon would be able to step in at the last minute and have the SNP vote down any agreement. The fate of our fishing industry might provide a clue as to why that’s a stupid risk to take.

    183. Liz g says:

      Heedtracker @ 12.00
      Not to worry though Kate’s babies are cute.
      Mibbi we will get a foty soon.
      That will make it all worthwhile EH?

    184. heedtracker says:

      Liz g says:
      20 November, 2016 at 12:09 am
      Heedtracker @ 12.00
      Not to worry though Kate’s babies are cute.

      Fluffie Mundell says the royals are interwoven into the fabric of Scotland which is pretty good trolling even for the Fluffster. There’s probably no royal alive on earth that keeps as far away as possible from the fabric of anything beyond the palace gates. But this is how you get your gong in teamGB. Well one of the ways to get one, good old tory royal arselicking. Its certainly what McDonnell’s got his socialist worker eye on.

    185. Cactus says:

      Did a difficult stickie somewhere on a bath street bar pc.. Looks good 🙂

      B&P

      The City of ma Glasgow.

      X.

    186. Cactus says:

      She does the same in the kitchen too..

      The labour linoleum..

      Soapy bubbles tya..

      2017 is gonna be Scotlands year.
      X.

    187. Liz g says:

      Heedtracker @ 12.30
      Right.. … Fluffys saying the Royal’s are interwoven into the fabric of an Extinguished thing?
      Even Dr Who wid hiv trouble explanin that yin.

    188. Cactus says:

      Tell ye whit I’m looking forward to..

      Seeing all the auld names pre indy ref uno.. Coming back for Indy Ref NEW (MEPAS)

      We know yer watching, we know yer names, talking to you miss Quinie Frae Angus, miss Scaredy Cat, madame TJenny X.

      We’re coming fur ye.

    189. Cactus says:

      It’s Saturday night!

      Enjoy yourself Scotland!

      *.

    190. Cactus says:

      But, to be honest, it’s Sunday, or aka, the weekend x

    191. Dr Jim says:

      *Aahh Waant A Voww*

      Nothing less will do now so C’mon Gordon shose whit yeeve goat
      Or is it going to be the return of *Tony* the war boy, exploding on to the scene heaving politicians left and right and tearing asunder all those who dare stand in his way
      War boy Tony has come out with fighting words today “The PMs a lightweight” says War boy “Corbyns a nutter” says Tony Stark I mean Blair
      The ironman went on to say how his country needs him in it’s hour of, well, need

      While his nemesis Salmond the Scottish avenger mocked all Tories for their attitude towards mighty Scotland
      Meanwhile in her fortress of Holyrood *Wildcat* Nicola, leader of the Justice league of Scotland sharpened her claws and smiled a wry smile while winking coquettishly sideways at the chamber camera (which is prelit to show her in a good light) readied herself for the fray to come

      See, it’s all too exciting for me now, I’m off for a cup of tea before I start drawin pitchers

    192. TJenny says:

      Cactus – I’m sure, like me, they’re all still here and enjoying reading all the comments, esp from newbies – well maybe not all newbies. 🙂

      Cheers
      x

    193. Cactus says:

      Excellent, rockin da city tj..

      Good tae see ye..

      Muchos loveos..

      *X*

    194. Cactusson says:

      It’s coming real soon..

    195. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus:

      How’sit gaun,oot ther jumpin aboot the Toon ur ye,you watch yersel man,take it easy,nae polis! nae yoon baitin,other n’ at Enjoy Yersel. 🙂

      Peace Always

    196. chic mcgregor says:

      Ian B
      Great link.

      I watched the series first time round and bought the book. At the time, it was astonishing, for example, to discover that at the time of the Treaty of Union, Scotland had virtually no national debt whereas England had the largest national debt in the World plus many other things like the Scottish Insurrection of 1820.

      But upon spending many months researching these claims in the library it transpired that he was, by and large, correct in his account.

    197. Cactus says:

      I’ve seen Scotland’s future..

      Lookin’ real good.

      Soon, we will be laughing..

      Tis one of the many stages of coming to be..

      Cameron or Ian of the B..

      Gimme a 1,2 & 3 to get free..
      X.

    198. bugsbunny says:

      Dr JIm,

      They only vow I want to hear from Gordon Brown in future is a Vow of Silence. He’s like King Midas in reverse. Everything he touches turns to shite.

    199. frankieboy says:

      Anyone threatening to vote NO ‘because of X-Y-Z’ is a unionist. Independence is without condition. You either want it or you don’t. After that, we can decide what we want our country to look like. Unfortunately there are too many closet XYZ unionists in Scotland who want independence as pick n’mix. These are the switherers the 45% need to get us over the line.

    200. Ghillie says:

      Chris, hehehe, poor Kezia, but what a silly girl she is.

      Heedtracker @10.55pm

      Thank you for the fantastic quote from Alex Salmond = )
      (About the Toy MPs wanting their PM to pull out of the Supreme Court appeal in case they look on Scotland with respect!)

      Mr Salmond is having fun these days! And getting on with saying what needs said without the constraints of being FM.

      In fact, highlighting issues that dont make it into the msn for obvious reasons. Keep doing what you’re doing Alex!

      Hey there Cactus, enjoy your evening = )

    201. Cactus says:

      One of the first things that hooked me into da early years of da Wings btl was Ian B, Ronnie and gordoz.

      Cheers dudes..

      You made it count..

      X

      ps, did a post earlier under ‘Cactusson’ it didnae get thru, nae bother.

    202. Cactus says:

      You called it Ghillie..

      Can you feel it all around..

      Yes Scotland.

    203. Cactus says:

      Caledonia calling..

    204. Cactus says:

      Paint ye red,

      Paint ye tory blue,

      It’s all da same,

      We’re going for something new.

      Nice one CC.

    205. Cactus says:

      To think is to believe.

      To be.

    206. Thepnr says:

      Get ready for a General Election next year. Tories well ahead in the polls, they will lose their appeal to the Supreme Court and Theresa May has no chance of meeting her deadline for triggering Article 50 by the end of March.

      They will want to buy more time, they will want a bigger majority. An election next year therefore looks likely.

      This is good news, you can’t get a better poll as to how things stand than a vote in a General Election. I expect SNP would do pretty well.

    207. yesindyref2 says:

      An interesting couple of papers for those following the constitutional battle perhaps to come in December. First is an old one from Christine Bell about the significance of the Edinburgh Agreement:

      http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/431/Christine-Bell-The-Legal-Status-of-the-Edinburgh-Agreement.aspx

      Second is a newer one from Christine Bell which includes an interesting discussion about the Acts of Union, and the UK Government’s first paper including its Annex A legal advice from Crawford & Boyle which someone, forget who, said at the time was a strange thing to do as it laid open the UK Gov’s legal arguments.

      http://www.politicalsettlements.org/files/2016/05/20160124_WP_Bell_ScottishIndependence.pdf

      Christine Bell was neutral to start with, referenced by Alex Salmond in Holyrood, and became a YESser during the ref, which she acknowledged similarly to Aileen McHarg, in one of her blogs before the Ref.

    208. Cactus says:

      Morning smallaxe, thepnr and co.

      Back home, my guests have all crashed out.

      Listening to April Wine on the cassette.

    209. Cactus says:

      Just between you and me..

      Scotland is the land of the free.

      X.

    210. bjsalba says:

      I am just wondering if May withdraws the appeal, whether the “short form” bill they would like to ram through Parliament would fit the requirements of the EU Treaty which require the UK to proceed in accordance with the UK constitutional requirements.

    211. Bill says:

      Train malfunction:

      It’d be incredibly easy to make an engine fail. As an engineer I could temporarily disable an engine in minutes.

    212. Ken500 says:

      May and the Tories are on a hiding to nothing. Brexit will not stop migration in Europe. Or ever happen? Just cause continued uncertainty. The thing that will stop migration in Europe is the UK/US and France stop bombing the Middle East to bits and destroying the world economy. Brexit will just cause more confusion and damage to the world economy. Typical Tories they never fail to cause upheaval and poverty. Most of them should be in jail. Cameron is one of the worst PM in living memory along with Blair. Causing hardship and wasting £trillions of public money. Lining the pockets of the wealthiest and starving the vulnerable,

      It is ironic Blair ‘intervening’ in the catastrophe he has caused. He should be in jail. What happened to the Chilcot verdict being acted upon and the main culprits being censored and charged. Farague is a complete crooked liar who has been embezzling public money for years and illegally funding a political Party. An alcoholic. Alcoholics make poor decision without proper, total abstinence counselling rehab. He is a criminal.

      May and the Tories in confusion will carry on destroying the economy. It is the Tory way. The only reason the Tories join a political Party and are in government is to line their and associates pockets with public money while they destroy the economy, especially in Scotland. No wonder people dread a Tory/Unionist minority administration. There is no Democracy. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 a Constituencies. Nothing is being done about it.

      The Tories are trying to take the UK out of the EU, by telling lies, when the majority of people want to stay. An impossible task. It will continue on until the useless Tories are voted out of Office. Leaving devastation in their wake again. Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident, Heathrow are all a waste of public money with viable, reliable alternatives. Causing congestion in the south and neglect in the North. The Wesminster Gov has a statutory duty to provide for essential flight/connectivity throughout the UK. LondonTransport including Heathrow is heavily subsidised by all UK taxpayers.

      Improving the present rail service to the direct line to the North and Scotland would improve comparative travel times. HS3 would increase and improve more convenient direct travel between the Northen Cities. The trains and flights are half empty. Their is no necessity for HS2. Non required capacity and more expensive with no business case. In the future aircraft travel will shoot into space and land in Australia in an hour or much shorter time. Many major airports will be made redundant with different hub requirements.

      Hammond described Faslane as a ‘wasteland’. It would be if he gets his way. Glasgow , Scotland’s largest and important City is 30 mins away. The beautiful West Coast, nearby, is renowned the world over. Hammond sneered at the prospect of Scotland having it’s own Defence force or a Navy. Scotland doesn’t have boats to patrol it’s shores to stop drugs being illegally taken in. A bigger threat to communities and society than migration or terrorism. Scotland does not get the defence force it requires or for which it pays. Trident is a complete and obsolete waste of money. It will be going with Brexit. Along with Tory rule in Scotland.

      £400Million to restore a redundant Palace. It should be sold off for other services. The hypocritical Tory Royals. They are supposed to be impartial, instead they intervene in policy decision. There are already too many tax evading sycophants hangers on costing a fortune to keep. £400Million a year. One of the richest families in the world. £2Billion? of personal worth. Got their capital gains by tax evading at every opportunity. They should slim down or bow out.

      The Royals should not be taking part in illegal wars destroying the economy. Or dancing with a Saudi undemocratic absolute, despot, monarchy for money. Acting as mercenaries for illegal regimes and killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Costing £trillions and damaging the world economy. The veterans are starving and not getting their full support often becoming homeless. The State reneges on their duties. The criminal ‘pycho bustards’.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

    213. Another Union Dividend says:

      Constitutional “expert” two jobs Tompkins misses key Scotland – UK summit to do his day job.

      https://www.pressreader.com/uk/sunday-herald/20161120/281646779731240

      Toxic twins Blair and Jim Murphy to set up an institute to play role in Brexit talks and meeting Thereas May.

      http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/blair-pm-is-a-lightweight-and-corbyns-a-nutter-so-im-back-x77h9237b

      Times trumpet Michael Glackin continues his weekly rants at the Sturgeon and Scottish government in Sunday Times

    214. heedtracker says:

      Times trumpet Michael Glackin continues his weekly rants at the Sturgeon and Scottish government in Sunday Times

      Graun liggers want to talk about Buckfast.

      “As independence for Scotland looks increasingly likely following England’s decision to drag the UK out of Europe, what will become of Scotland’s favourite tonic wine? For years, this robust and popular elixir, brewed by Devon monks, has made life almost bearable in neighbourhoods left untouched by the social democratic reforms of Holyrood and UK governments. Yet Buckfast has become the pet target of politicians from these administrations who would have us believe that it, and not their bankrupt policies, are to blame for antisocial behaviour and feelings of social alienation in some of our most disadvantaged communities. Can we not urge them to keep the price of Buckfast competitive despite onerous cross-border tariffs?”

      Lucky Graun readers of the greater English region of Scotland. Its odd how Britnats never actually say out loud, Buckfast is English piss.

    215. Robert Louis says:

      bjsalba at 0757am,

      You make a very important point regarding the Tory Government and their desperation to avoid the appeal on article 50. The EU legislation is clear that the exit must accord with the constitutional norms of the exiting country.

      It strikes me, it is the FACT that NS has now secured Scotland’s voice in the appeal, that is worrying London, for the constitutional reasons often set out by Robert Peffers.

      Despite how London like to portray matters, Scotland is not a subsection of England. The union treaty is just that a treaty – an agreement, which either party may end. Scots law and the Scottish constitution is very clear, and is a cornerstone of the treaty of union. Indeed, were Westminster to try to sidestep the terms of the union treaty over Bexit, then they would, QED, negate the treaty of union. The treaty of union was agreed by the Scots parliament, under Scots law. If that key point is ignored, then with the same argument you undermine the entire treaty, and end the union.

      This, I think explains why London is suddenly feart of their appeal. The last thing they want is a court asserting Scotland’s legal, constitutional rights, as established by the various claims of right and the union treaty between Scotland and England of 1707. Even worse it may make folks in England AND Scotland truly aware of the exact nature of what makes up the united kingdom.

    216. Tam Jardine says:

      Tony Blair has surveyed the chaos in the UK and decided that he and he alone is needed by his people to sort out the mess.

      “The controversial former Prime Minister is engineering a comeback because he feels he can fill a political vacuum caused by Theresa May being a “light weight” and Jeremy Corbyn being a “nutter”, The Sunday Times reports. A source said Mr Blair is sourcing premises near Westminster in order to relocate 130 staff to the UK’s political hub.”

      https://archive.is/ruDBg

      The man needs help- his god-complex is so strongly established that it is all consuming.

      I wonder if one of Blair’s 130 strong team is tasked with following Blair around, whispering in his ear that he is mortal, that he is just a man? Perhaps a megaphone should be deployed as the message is not getting through.

      The idea that what the UK needs right now is the intervention of an insane war criminal is mind boggling.

      Meanwhile millions of people lie dead in their graves in the middle east thanks to a handful of men, one of them being Anthony Charles Lynton Blair.

    217. Luigi says:

      Louis says:

      20 November, 2016 at 8:59 am

      This, I think explains why London is suddenly feart of their appeal. The last thing they want is a court asserting Scotland’s legal, constitutional rights, as established by the various claims of right and the union treaty between Scotland and England of 1707. Even worse it may make folks in England AND Scotland truly aware of the exact nature of what makes up the united kingdom.

      Indeed. The union is, and always has been, one almighty constitutional fudge.

      And that’s the thing about fudge. A wee bit of heat and it melts – fast.

      Popcorn ready. 🙂

    218. Luigi says:

      The dumb tories and ukippers are all for forcing the issue, completely ignorant of the constitutional can of worms about to be opened.

      The clever tories (those with a brain cell) are panicking. And boy, they ought to be, right now. 🙂

    219. Orri says:

      The whole idea of a Grand Repeal Bill is a piece of window dressing which completely backfired. Firstly in that there needn’t be any mention of the EU in UK legislation as long as said legislation complies with the relevant directives. Secondly in that it’s not meant to be a mass removal of rights and striking down of laws other than the ones explicitly stating EU laws apply. All that says is that the UK are not to be trusted as far as following a treaty. Not only that but the same treaty obligation transfers to Holyrood. There shouldn’t be any need to explicitly state that.

      All that has happened is that assuming we did leave the EU then Holyrood and Westminster would be in the ridiculous position of having a union we’re no longer part of overriding our democracy. All because some genius at Westminster either didn’t trust themselves or their successors to honour a treaty obligation and, more insultingly, didn’t trust Holyrood either.

      If I were the SNP my position would be to go over any such bill with a fine tooth comb to ensure all it does is adopt EU law fully whilst removing any explicit need for compliance. Call it a grand simplification bill as at the end of it there should be a bare bones declaration that there is an implicit understanding that treaty obligations be considered in deciding how laws are interpreted taking into account when they were.

    220. T.roz says:

      Bugs bunny @ 1:45

      Brilliant!

    221. galamcennalath says:

      Luigi says:

      The dumb tories and ukippers are all for forcing the issue, completely ignorant of the constitutional can of worms about to be opened.

      For the likes of those, it is always all about England. They don’t look beyond that and by simply equating England to Britain/UK anything which doesn’t quite fit is dismissed.

      They could be in for an almighty shock.

      All we can hope for is the outcome is beneficial in pushing Scots’ rights and upholding what little democracy we currently have.

    222. Luigi says:

      Its’ becoming painfully obvious that, for all Westminster’s power and cunning, the only thing holding us back is our ain folk; i.e. those soft Nos who still aren’t sure. If a majority of people in Scotland decide to go for independence, it will happen very quickly IMO. There’s nothing to stop us, there is really nothing to stop us but ourselves.

    223. gus1940 says:

      How many palaces do our Royal parasites need to enable them to function at whatever it is they do?

      In London they have Buckingham Palace, Kensington Palace and St. James Palace and only about 20 or so miles away Windsor Castle which is said to be their favourite residence.

      They also have Sandringham and in Scotland Holyrood Palace plus Balmoral although I understand that the latter is a personal possession of the family.

      In this age of Austerity should Royal Palaces not be subjected to the same sort of review as recently announced for The Defence Estate?

      On an ever so slightly similar subject what is the latest on the FM’s proposed move from Bute House to The Old Governor’s House on Calton Hill?

    224. galamcennalath says:

      Telegraphy’ latest loony headline …

      Second World War victory proves civil service can deliver Brexit, says top ex-mandarin

      …. I really am glad I inhabit a different time and space continuum!

    225. Tam Jardine says:

      gus1940

      I watched the news last night and there was a piece on the £370 million rewire and plumbing upgrade on buckingham palace followed directly by a piece on a charity in Govanhill being given funding by the Scottish Government to upgrade some of the dilapidated housing stock (and by god the gaffs pictured needed some work).

      I am sure it was a purely accidental juxtaposition… or maybe the BBC news editor just thought- that’s one piece on upgrading a big house- lets follow it by another piece on upgrading some other houses.

    226. ronnie anderson says:

      I’ll leave this here in case some Wingers havent seen it.

      http://archive.is/wCIo4

    227. Marcia says:

      Ronnie Anderson 10.37

      I wish some newsagents would do the same, I’d add in a few other titles.

    228. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Marcia we can’t expect wee newsagents to not sell newspapers or they would go out of business,its a small but important part of they’re business , drawing people in to purchase other goods .

    229. John H. says:

      The grovelling has begun. President Trump has been invited to visit the queen at Buckingham Palace next year. Personally, I don’t think he’ll be interested in looking at an old ruin.

    230. Breeks says:

      By all means get your popcorn at the ready, but the constitutional phasers are still set to stun.

      The UK supreme Court cannot reassert Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty, merely (god willing and justice served) declare the issue beyond its jurisdiction.

      This might cause Westminster’s case to flounder and fail, and interesting developments must surely flow from that, but any acknowledgment of Scotland’s separate sovereignty will be a passive “hands off” affair. It is only us, the people of Scotland who can reassert our sovereignty. We should expect the Courts to back up our right to do so, but the Court cannot initiate the action.

      It’s like IRobot, the responses are limited, we must ask the right question.

      Look at the AXA case which essentially tested whether Holywood had the right to make law. The Supreme Court ruled that it did, and that it could not overrule the voice of the sovereign people of Scotland manifest in its elected representatives. We have our benchmark ruling already with regards to Scottish sovereignty.

      This Brexit case may be a second benchmark ruling, and a much more highly charged event, but when the fuss dies down, we already have whatever it can deliver.

      The risk I see is that the Supreme Court gets it wrong, and delivers a ruling at odds with the AXA result from 2011. I don’t think it can as a Court, but as a puppet instrument of the British Establishment, who knows what it will do. Time will tell.

    231. dakk says:

      John H. says:

      ’20 November, 2016 at 11:04 am
      The grovelling has begun. President Trump has been invited to visit the queen at Buckingham Palace next year.’

      Can’t wait to see the Chookie Embra’s face when upon being received,the Donald makes his grab for auld Betty’s groin 🙂

    232. dakk says:

      dakk says

      ‘Can’t wait to see the Chookie Embra’s face when upon being received,the Donald makes his grab for auld Betty’s groin ?’

      Yes,Chris Cairns you may use that image in your sketch when the time comes 🙂

    233. mr thms says:

      Re Brexit..

      What if… there is a plan?

      I’ve noticed the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom was established on the 1st October 2009, just before the Treaty of Lisbon (Article 50 et alia) took effect on 1st December 2009.

      Recently, I also noticed the EU changed the procedure for qualified majority voting on the 1st November 2014 (Not long after the Scottish referendum held on the 18th September 2014) and they have a transition period where EU countries can opt to use the old procedure until 31st March 2017.

      The end of March 2017 also happens to be the PM’s preferred date to trigger Article 50, the subject on which an appeal is to be heard in the Supreme Court next month..

      Full circle..

      Alex Salmond in Future Scotland said Scotland could remain in the EU under Article 48

      Can’t wait to see how all constitutional upheaval pans out…

    234. Gary45% says:

      More like the Chookie Embra will blast Trumpets ferret.
      Brenda get me the blunderbuss.
      Maybees another toon Chris.

    235. Sinky says:

      Gordon Brewer demanding Humza Yousaf resigns if he sacks Abellio!

    236. Grouse Beater says:

      Oh dear…

      I’ve got myself into a Twitter spat with the fragrant JK Rowling, a woman who trolls independence supporters, and keeps political discourse to trivialities and away from the real issues of liberty and civil rights.

      Her absurd view is, the SNP shouldn’t represent the nation of Scotland in case they get tarred as nationalists.

      Any of you read any of her door stopper books?

      A minimum of five clichés a page, and a plethora of ungrammatical sentences. Life is made up of grumpy, mean humans and wizards. That’s it. Characters are black or white. Her Potter industry – surely sagging under its own commercial weight – reduces everything to crap popular fiction and away from mature work.

      Sheesh!

    237. Bob Mack says:

      When Gina Miller and the N Ireland executive took on the government at the High Court, there was no wringing of hands as there is now. They were confident the Supreme Court would find in favour of the government just as they did against the N Ireland Executive.

      Suddenly after the Scottish Government enter the fray we have all the top Tories advising Mrs May to drop the appeal and go directly to Parliament with a Bill.
      Among these advisors are a number of lawyers to QC level. Why would they do that now?

      They know that to have the issue of Scottish sovereignty discussed in open court is a minefield and a Constitutional crisis waiting to happen, is why.

      Theresa May has tried to build a person named based on Margaret Thatcher. Strong, unwavering determined. This my friends is what will cause the appeal to go ahead. She cannot deviate from that line despite all the pressure now gathering.

      The course is set and the judgement must inevitably determine if Scotland presents an immovable obstruction to Brexit. Those are the stakes in the highest gamble the Tories have ever taken,

      Imagine the reaction of the English public to have Scotland stopping their EU exit strategy. This case will decide just that.

    238. Grouse Beater says:

      Grouse Beater Talk: “Friendly Fascism and how to protect a Better Society”

      Tuesday 29th November 7.30pm
      Munro Centre
      6 Park Grove Street
      Edinburgh
      EH4 7NT

      (Alternative title: “How not to hide behind an Internet moniker”)

    239. Sinky says:

      Good article here from London School of Economics

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/03/14/a-brexit-could-make-it-easier-for-scotland-to-join-the-eu-as-an-independent-state/

      Supposing then that the second referendum on Scottish independence would result in a vote for independence, the necessary preconditions for using Article 50 TEU as a backdoor to EU membership would be met. (TEU = the Treaty revision procedure)

      Although Article 50 TEU only prescribes the procedure for a Member State (e.g. the UK) to leave the EU, this provision can also serve to govern the withdrawal of only a part of a state (e.g. England, Wales and Northern-Ireland) and as a legal basis to keep an independent Scotland in the EU in the context of a Brexit – under the condition that there is a political consensus for this among the three parties involved (i.e. the EU, Scotland and the UK minus Scotland). The negotiations foreseen in Article 50 TEU would then have two main aims: defining the EU’s relationship with the UK (minus Scotland) post-Brexit and adapting the terms of the UK’s EU membership to Scotland (i.e. adjusting them to Scotland’s size).

      While under international law, Scotland would become a new legal entity, in the EU legal order it could remain being regarded as the Member State that joined in 1973. At least one remaining difficulty (under international law) would be the succession of obligations in relation to the many mixed agreements concluded between the EU and the Member States (on the one side) and third countries (on the other side). For each of these treaties, an agreement should be reached with each third state concerned on the proper identity of its ‘UK’ counterparty.

      Still, from the perspective of the EU legal order this solution would allow Scotland to keep the UK’s opt-outs (subject to a possible renegotiation in the Article 50 TEU procedure) and it would allow for a smooth transition between being part of the EU as a region of a Member State and as a Member State in its own right.

      After all, Article 50 TEU allows for the postponement of the actual withdrawal (as long as necessary, given the need to first conclude an intra-UK agreement on Scottish independence) if the European Council agrees so unanimously. This unanimity requirement should not be too problematic, since Scottish EU membership would be linked to the UK’s withdrawal. Even if some Member States might have (domestic) reasons to hinder Scottish EU membership, it is in everyone’s interest to have the UK withdraw in an orderly fashion. Forging a package deal between the two issues could then be Scotland’s easiest road to EU membership.

    240. galamcennalath says:

      “Further blow for Scotland in post-Brexit ‘Norway model’ bid

      An EU source revealed that membership was only open to states – and Scotland is not considered a state.”

      I see no problem. If true, it only clarifies the situation. It would prevent any ‘middle way’ of a special deal for Scotland with single market access while still in the UK.

      Did anyone ever believe a special deal was likely? The SNP/SG need to pursue the idea, if only to have it explicitly ruled out.

      Shortly, it may be clear that we have a choice – follow England into hard/dirty Brexit or become independent. Makes IndyRef2 inevitable.

      http://archive.is/Zu42U

    241. Brian Powell says:

      Grouse Beater

      I winder how she will react to the California National Party,it wants to remove California from the US and her money spinner franchise is based in Disney Land. Will she withdraw it, as she opposes independence.

      Indeed, as she opposes Trump, will she withdraw her franchise from all of the US as the tax dollars raised will go to fuel his ‘misogynistic, anti-immigrant, finger on the nuclear trigger’ government.

      I haven’t put question marks to either of those, because I seriously doubt her principles stretch to the bank.

    242. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: campus newspaper bans.

      The Dundee University Students Union (DUSA), for many years, did not sell The Sun in DUSA shops, on account of ‘Page 3’.

      The ban was lifted when The Sun got rid of ‘Page 3’.

    243. Bob Mack says:

      @Galamcennalath,

      That is exactly what we are looking for. We need all exits to be closed apart from a binary choice between an isolated and insular UK whose economy is definitely going to suffer, or an independent open Nation State who is progressive inclusive and financially competent. These choices focus waivering minds.

      If after that, the Scottish people vote to remain in the UK, at least we can say with certainty that we and the SNP gave it everything we could to secure an escape route.

      The rest is up to the Scottish people.

    244. galamcennalath at 12.07

      I remain surprised that so many people don’t actually understand what is going on here. You make the point very well.

    245. McBoxheid says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      19 November, 2016 at 1:43 pm

      @McBoxheid says: 19 November, 2016 at 12:31 pm:

      “rUK would then be Scotland, (under the treaty of Union).

      Rubbish! How many times must it be said before the truth sinks in?

      The United Kingdom is without doubt a bipartite union of KINGDOMS. It only indirectly united four countries because, as its title tells you, it is a United Kingdom.

      It is not, and never has been The United Country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What’s more was only two British Kingdoms in 1706/7.

      The Kingdom of England cannot thus return to being any form of united kingdom as there are no other kingdoms in Britain to be united with.

      So neither can Scotland. The Status Quo Ante is exactly what it was on the last day of April 1707, One Kingdom comprised of three countries – (with the exception that the former English Province of Ireland has partitioned).

      Ireland remains a single country but is partitioned and governed by two different governments. One of which is a republic and a republic, by definition, cannot be part of a Kingdom. The other, Northern Ireland, is an English Province.

      The Irish state came into being in 1922 as the, “Irish Free State”, a dominion of the British Commonwealth, having seceded from the United Kingdom under the Anglo-Irish Treaty. It comprises 26 of the island of Ireland’s 32 counties. The 1937 constitution renamed the state Ireland.

      ” … There is precedence for such names
      http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/countries/detailed-country-information/former-yugoslav-republic-of-macedonia/index_en.htm

      More utter rubbish – read the words McBoxheid. Those links you quote all refer to countries and the United Kingdom is a union of two only kingdoms.

      When it splits up it returns to being the same two independent kingdoms who agreed to unite in 1706/7. It does not return to being four countries for it has always been four countries.

      Ireland remains the one country of Ireland but is under two different governments. The North is still an English Province and is often spoken of as, “The Province of Ulster”.

      There is no other example of two kingdoms uniting as a United Kingdom on Earth. The Westminster propaganda that it is anything else is only in their minds. It has no legal standing. How can a two partner United Kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms become what is now the country of England, calling itself the United Kingdom and treating itself as a country called the United Kingdom while funding itself directly as the United Kingdom treat its former annexed countries as underlings by devolving the United Kingdom’s powers to them and even more insultingly demote its only partner kingdom of Scotland to being a country of England annexed country and devolve English powers to Scotland as a country when Scotland is in fact an equally sovereign kingdom in the United Kingdom.

      Please do not make yourself look like an idiot by sucking in all the Westminster lies.

      The United Kingdom is NOT a United Country and it never has been. It is a union of Kingdoms. Scotland is a Kingdom and a country but England is a country but only one such in the Kingdom Of England that signed the Treaty.

      The proof is that neither Wales or Ireland signed the treaty because the were part of the Kingdom of England and it was that kingdom of England that signed it was not only the country of England or Wales and Ireland would not have become part of the union.
      ________________

      Where did I say or imply that The UK was a united country?

      There are more than one country in the Union, Scotland and England, which is an amalgamation of England, Wales and NI, won by conquest by England, but England has been quite happy to leave them as countries, in an imperial sort of way. Northern Ireland has never been an English province in my eyes. It is an Irish provence under English control, in bondage, so to speak.

      As Wales and Northern Ireland were under the control of England at the time of the treaty, are they not included in the treaty by default? Whether they wish it or not, they are in it until it is broken, or they regain their own independence.

      The crowns were united in 1603, so that makes it only one kingdom, as far as I can see.

      In my passport it clearly states the United Kingom of Great Britain (the island) and Northern Ireland (the part of Ireland that remains in the UK.) It is a legal document and thus name that is accepted the world over, or have you ever been refused entry into any country, state ot territory because the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not recognised by that particular place?

      I know that the UK will cease to exist as a union if Scotland secedes, although I don’t know what English controlled countries would be called after that secession.
      Will the kingdom remain? Technically, I think they will until the crowns are disunited. I could be wrong though.

      My point was, that it might be England that would be forced to split the political alliance that is the UK and therefore they would be leaving it and couldn’t claim that as a name because it would belong to Scotland and Northern Ireland until were no longer united by the treaty.
      They might change it to The United Kingdom and Principality of England and Wales

      However, Northern Ireland also voted to remain in the EU and if they are split from England, they will have to decide where they stand in the world. Will they become a completely independent country? Will they still acknowledge the current monarch as their head of state?

      Where will that put their (involuntary) union with Scotland? They might like to maintain it in some form. Whatever they decide, they will almost certainly have the desire to maintain links with Scotland within or without the EU with some form of legal agreement.

      I am also sure that the Republic is interested in close ties to both Scotland and N.I. if Ireland isn’t reunited and some kind of celtic alliance and free trade area will quite likely follow after both Scotland (and N.I.) go their own ways.

      Robert, you should not believe you have the monopoly when it comes spouting on about the position of the nations within the UK and the rest of us are clueless idiots, under the spell of Westminster lies, or anything else. You could also maybe think before you so callously bandy about insults and accusations.

      The link: http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/countries/detailed-country-information/former-yugoslav-republic-of-macedonia/index_en.htm was more of a tongue in cheek reference to the banality of such names as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and what we might see in these islands.

    246. mealer says:

      I thought Humza Yousaf did very well this morning in his interview with Gordon Brewar.

    247. mr thms says:

      Sinky @ 12:03pm

      Thanks for your link and post.. Interesting scenario

      It would fit neatly with my post about their being a Brexit plan..

      Could Scotland be about to get the best of both worlds before eventually becoming an independent country?

      It also looks good for Northern Ireland and Gibraltar.

      And, it will also be good for England and Wales in the long run since they will both be able to sort out their own constitutional arrangements..

    248. Grouse Beater says:

      Brian Powell: “I haven’t put question marks to either of those, because I seriously doubt her principles stretch to the bank.”

      I enjoyed your masterly, articulate summation!

      She has yet to ‘make up her mind about Trump’.

    249. HandandShrimp says:

      Gordon Brewer demanding Humza Yousaf resigns if he sacks Abellio!

      I would imagine he will demand that he resigns if he doesn’t terminate the contract either. Given Humza is new to the job I think Gordon is talking shite. That is BBC journalism for you.

      However, I am perplexed by the notion that trains would be immune from breaking down if publicly owned or if operated by a different provider. I recall being driven to distraction by First Rail back in 2010. I wrote and complained to then transport minister and to Transport Scotland. The service was awful. However a lot of the problems are structural and that is the publicly owned Network Rail’s area.

      I have no issue with the contract being terminated and brought in house but if anybody thinks that it will be a panacea then they need their head tested. Investment and better rolling stock is the key not any specific management team.

      The problem with politics and political journalism is that much of it is infantile reactionary drivel.

    250. Grouse Beater says:

      Mr Thms: “It also looks good for Northern Ireland and Gibraltar.”

      I hope you don’t mind me appending the Gibraltarian view to your post.

      http://wp.me/p4fd9j-aI8

    251. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. For those who may have missed this—- BBC on the 8 Frigates,or for Newbies here:

      BBC admits ‘IndyRef Frigates’ bulletins were false.
      http://tinyurl.com/zoepbfg

    252. heedtracker says:

      BBC Politics

      Paul Nuttall on why he’ll be the best leader for UKIP

      Ligger Neil gave Eddie Hitler another BBC sponsored soap box. It was a bit creepy than usual today from BBC Politics gimps, hard core conservatives boosting far right UKIP loonies. Suzanne Evans mouth, poor mans JK Rowling, has the most accurate imitation of an anus on BBC tv. Should win UKIPsters hands down.

    253. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      I have had a subscription to the on-line facsimile edition of The National since day1.

      What is going on? All that seems to be available since about 3 days ago is a bastardised Herald type rolling news version where one has to remember which of the many news items are old ones.

      This not what I wanted when I subscribed.

    254. mr thms says:

      McBoxheid @ 12:26

      “The crowns were united in 1603, so that makes it only one kingdom, as far as I can see.”

      It looks like the King of the Kingdom of Scotland by taking the crown of the Kingdom England in 1603 used his royal prerogative to ‘create’ the new title King of Great Britain and a new flag.. the Union Jack.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707#Previous_attempts_at_union

      Does this mean, following independence, Scotland has first dibs on the Union Jack? 😉

    255. Orri says:

      To clear up any ambiguity can we define “reassert” in the context of Scottish sovereignty as being a repeat of previous assertions of it remaining in the hands of the people of Scotland rather than as a recovery of it from Westminster. There’s both precedent in Scots’ Law and the implications of various provisions of the Scotland Act that demonstrate where the right to govern derives in Scotland.

      The problem that some Conservatives are having is that by acknowledging the right of Holyrood to intervene the Supreme Court have already conceded the point of devolution having reduced any claim of absolute sovereignty Westminster might have pretended. Voicing concerns over Scotland potentially being given powers isn’t a valid fear as that’s not up to the Supreme Court. The fear is that they will determine that Scotland, or more correctly Holyrood, already has powers and exactly what they are.

    256. Grouse Beater says:

      Unionists – fed on colonial values – cannot understand why ‘North Britain’ has reacted so badly to creeping integration, angry over the appropriation of resources and civil liberties that were never ever embodied in the Act of Union to give away.

    257. Legerwood says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      20 November, 2016 at 12:36 pm
      “”Gordon Brewer demanding Humza Yousaf resigns if he sacks Abellio……………However a lot of the problems are structural and that is the publicly owned Network Rail’s area.

      ……… Investment and better rolling stock is the key not any specific management team.

      The problem with politics and political journalism is that much of it is infantile reactionary drivel.””

      Considering that Abellio and Network Rail are addressing the investment and rolling stock issues then calla sir the Abellio contract to be terminated are no more than political point scoring which finds an easy target in a Minister who has not got the backbone to stand up for his department.

      Abellio has ordered new trains the first of which – 26 units – will be delivered next year and the rest – around 44 units – will be delivered the following year. In addition Abellio have created 100 new driver’s posts. These drivers will be trained and in place when the new trains arrive.

      Meanwhile the ongoing electrification if the Edinburgh to Glasgow line and the Edinburgh to Perth line via Stirling goes on. Bridges and tunnels all along these routes have to be raised/lowered to allow the electricity cables and gantries to be installed. This is a huge logistical exercise involving negotiations with councils, public and rail operator to name but a few.

      The union’s with their various strikes/go slows etc have not helped matters.

      Throughout all of this Abellio, in place for 18 or so months, has kept the service running and achieved 90% puncuality.

      The work when it is finished will go quite some way to addressing the issue of overcrowding and will also free up trains for use on other routes such as the Borders Railway which despite it being completed on time the previous contract holder had done nothing about getting new rolling stock to cover the route.

      Any Transport Minister with a backbone should have come out fighting the incessant campaign against Abellio/Network Rail by forcefully making these points. The fact he hasn’t might be a reason for sacking him.

      Sometimes I have the feeling that people think the little elves should come out after midnight and do all the repairs/upgrading so that they are not inconvenienced in any way. Here is some breaking news: the elves repair shoes not railways. And another thing there are no elves!

    258. Grouse Beater says:

      Brewer asking Yousaf if he will resign, is the BBC aping the MSM’s agenda, helping to promote the British state’s political bidding.

      All he has done is pick up right-wing newspapers and taken his cue from the headlines. He thinks those headlines exactly reflect public concern.

      A journalist thinking for himself would enquire about solutions that might improve a railway network, not ask if the one person that can make a difference should go away.

    259. Meg merrilees says:

      anyone who hasn’t read Alex’s comments – see heed tracker @10.55pm 19th Nov much higher up this thread.

      This is critical – TM is being urged to drop the Appeal ‘because of the “risk” that Scotland might be awarded “some rights”‘

      That kind of sums it up – in case we find out what is our birthright!!!

      Bring it on!

      Fun and games start if TM does back down and try to force thru the short bill – but Oor Nicola will have planned for that.

      If not, crowdfunder anyone?

    260. Clapper57 says:

      BBC Sport Twitter today :

      “Unfortunately England aren’t there.

      But the Four Nations final is still set to be a cracker”.

      Well well no hiding true allegiance there ….lol

    261. mr thms says:

      Grouse Beater @ 12:29pm

      Thank you for your link.

      I had read that article before.

      It is a really complex issue.

      There are other ‘coincidences’ I have noticed with dates and events

      Harold Wilson set up the Royal Commission on the Constitution of the United Kingdom, (also known as the Kilbrandon Commission) on 15th April 1969.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_on_the_Constitution_(United_Kingdom)

      In the same year, on the 22nd May 1969, a United Nations treaty was adopted and opened for signatories on 23rd May 1969..

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_Treaties

      “Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties”

      The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland became a signatory to the treaty on 25th June 1971.

      And there is another coincidence that links with those two events..

      The first Scottish referendum on Devolution was held on the 3rd March 1979 and it was not long after on the 27th January 1980 that Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Treaty came into force..

      There have also been many step changes in EU treaties since Scotland voted for devolution, in the second referendum in 1997.

      Move forward 10 years and the signing of the Treaty of Lisbon, in 2007, by the same Labour government that gave Scotland its own parliament and now that I think about it..

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Adjacent_Waters_Boundaries_Order_1999

      “The territorial waters thus defined as not being Scottish waters come under the jurisdiction of either English law or Northern Ireland law. Therefore, because it defines the territorial limits of the three separate jurisdictions, it comprises a piece of constitutional law in the constitution of the United Kingdom.”

      I digress..

      The Treaty of Lisbon as everyone knows includes Article 50, that was written by the same person who is now on the Scottish Government’s Standing Council on Europe for Brexit!

      Now jump forward another ten years to 2017, and Article 50 about to be activated.

      Interesting times..

      🙂

    262. Muscleguy says:

      @Robert Peffers

      A central bank is however a useful thing, properly used. Holyrood could pass a law which says any lawful script issuing bank which wishes to continue to issue Scotpounds after [insert Independence date here] must deposit one Scotpound in the Scottish Central Bank for each Scotpound they issue.

      At which point the three will withdraw their deposits in Threadneedle street, deposit them in the Edinburgh Central Bank and their notes will be Scotpounds and our Central Bank will have an initial capitalisation.

    263. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      It’s interesting – the provisions of Art.50 have opened the seething can of worms that is the UK (non-) constitution. A house of cards in an developing earthquake.

      The terms of the 1707 Treaty of Union have been variously violated over the years since, but without consequence because the Scots have always preferred to defer and look the other way.

      And even when strictly not. The Labour redrawing of the sea boundary to snatch a large swathe of Scottish territorial waters and transfer them to England was an outrage, yet it mostly passed by unremarked. That one act alone of “robbery by pen” has made a mockery of the GERS figures since. Here in Scotland we have always held our wheesht for fear of “rocking the boat”. So that we can end up being mocked as “benefit junkies” by pig-ignorant exploiters. The analogy with an abusive relationship is painful but very relevant.

      However, thanks to Art.50, the whole business is now being brought out into the daylight. Finally. No wonder there are Unionist voices urging the UKGov to cut its losses before the constitutional consequences of the 1707 treaty are exposed to critical scrutiny.

      And not merely legally, although that course should be pursued vigorously, and not allowed to be shunted sideways, as will no doubt be attempted since the issue is so potentially explosive.

      It’s also time for the people of Scotland to wake up and recognise that their good will has been ruthlessly taken advantage of over the centuries. And furthermore, that a grudging and self-obsessed English Establishment is never going to deal with us fairly until we are thoroughly free of them and a sovereign nation once again.

      It’s time, as el Gordo once dismissingly said, but now in earnest, to “get real”.

    264. mr thms says:

      While there is very strong opposition to Scottish independence, there are those who while appearing to oppose it, actually support independence.

      Scotland would not be here at this stage, had it not been for the monumental task over many decades by various SNP, Labour, Conservative (and Lib-Dems when in coalition with the Conservatives and Labour) governments in Holyrood and Westminster working their way through the processes.

      The internal re-drawing of Scotland’s territorial waters applies only with regard to the constitutional arrangements of the UK, and I can recall seeing a Marine Scotland map of Scotland’s EEZ which had that area as ‘disputed’! Which is interesting in itself.

      I can’t shake off, a belief that Scotland, the rUK, EU and UN have all really been working together towards the goal of Scotland becoming an independent country.

    265. Andrew Mclean says:

      To all Syrian refugees arriving in Scotland, Wellcome brother and sister, you are now and I hope will be forever Scottish..

      X

    266. Smallaxe says:

      May I add to Brother Andrews welcome.

      Live in Peace Always

    267. bookie from hell says:

      Dan Huil says:
      19 November, 2016 at 1:19 pm
      bookie from hell is obviously still a britnat if he seriously considers voting No in the next referendum.

      why I’m not a britnat

      1. they never vote SNP
      2. scottish labour never talk up scotland(new bridge-renewal energy-NHS high targets)
      3.unionist double speak,oil bad,keep it reserved to westminster
      4.promised powers on home rule are worth jack sh^t(Gordon Brown has intervened about 3 more times offering new powers,after saying the vow was home rule.



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