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Wings Over Scotland


Bringing it on

Posted on February 02, 2017 by

These are the comments of UK defence secretary Michael Fallon in a short interview with today’s Herald. We don’t know about you, folks, but to us it feels like Christmas.

fallon

We think our favourite line is “There are other voices in Scotland now, not least Ruth Davidson’s”, but there are a lot to choose from.

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  1. 02 02 17 01:56

    Bringing it on | speymouth

373 to “Bringing it on”

  1. Bob MACK says:

    In my book respect only seems to work one way. The SNP have respected the referendum result. All the disrespect comes from unionist liars who made promises then reneged on them all.

    Cheeky hypocritical bastard.

  2. Swami Backverandah says:

    My favourite’s the one about the Westminster Tory Government failing to have a mandate because it did not secure a majority.

  3. Thepnr says:

    Hilarious but not in any way funny. This is getting ridiculous and after TRuthless’s talk yesterday of fratricide is an absolute disgrace by the Tories.

    They will not stop democracy in Scotland, we will have our say.

  4. Rick Guthrie says:

    Sir,

    We have changed our minds.

  5. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    I like the new French Embassy on the Royal Mile – looks like a sound investment for the future.

    Fallon seems to have forgotten about the Greens and their support for Indy. A bad mistake to make.

    Just put indyref2 to a vote in Holyrood and go for it next year.

    Time to get out of this mad inion and join our European friends.

  6. dakk says:

    Fallon always talk torrents of pish,but is a lovely speaker so sounds plausible.

    Yet one more amorphous treacherous Scot in a long list of infamy.

  7. Is that Ruth(22%)Davidson whose star is waning perceptibly now despite their furious efforts?

  8. rog_rocks says:

    Am thinking perhaps they’ve been watching too much of the trumpet & attempting to turn the UK into a dictatorship.

  9. Chick McGregor says:

    Mandate?

    For the 2015 GE the ratio of mandates for the SNP/Tory governments was as follows.

    By %age of popular vote 1.36
    By %age of seats won 1.83

    Party Leader mandate 100%/0% i.e. infinity.

  10. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Ach, maybe Fallon is still smarting after that TV interview on Clydeside recently with Bernard Ponsonby. You know, the one where his interviewer didn’t grovel fawningly as expected and the Great Man had to be rescued by his female minder…

  11. Chick McGregor says:

    Believe me, I am sorry to say this again, but the Westmister corrupta will try to say an indyref2 is ‘illegal’ and try to use the SC to give ‘weight’ to that pronouncement.

  12. Valerie says:

    Fallon gives me the creeps. A really haughty smug and dismissive attitude.

    He has a posh accent but I can’t hear Scots in it.

    Certainly getting interesting.

  13. Capella says:

    He was just feeling lucky. But he has to be lucky every time. We just have to be lucky once.

  14. Stoker says:

    UK defence secretary Michael Fallon says:

    “There are other voices in Scotland now,”

    Aye and every one of them are howling at the moon.

    BTW, Mr.Fallon, where’s the 13 ships?

    No more LibLabCons, let the clear-out begin.

    Goodnight troops!

  15. Kevin says:

    Pointing out how the Scottish Government…. the secretary of state screamed: “NO SURRENDER!”

    Asked if, given he believed Ms Sturgeon… he bellowed:
    “NO SURRENDER!”

    Pressed if this meant the UK government… Sir Michael draped himself in the flag of the union, head-butted a glass window, threw-up, committed hara-kari, shit on the floor and shrieked:
    “NO SURRENDER!”

  16. Arbroath1320 says:

    Oh please tell us that his “protector” will be with him when he visits later today. 😀

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxtNeZJn0VM&sns=tw

    Nice to see Herald getting themselves in a tizzy over the calling of a second referendum. Last time I checked we had 63 SNP MSP’s and 6 Greens. I admit my maths was never much good but by my wonky calculations this gives us a MAJORITY of 69 MSP’s out of 128 MSP’s.

    I think someone might like to tip the wink to the Herald and Fallon the Fabulous! 😀

  17. manandboy says:

    Like Ruth Davidson, Michael Fallon demonstrates his lack of intelligence and knowledge in almost everything he says. The Herald meanwhile is unconcerned by such things, happy to have another opportunity to have a pot at Nicola.
    Davidson, Fallon and the Herald – two buffoons and a comic.

  18. Tackety Beets says:

    Nearly posted yesterday , dammmm

    How I dream that Derek Mackay fails to get support for his budget and we have another SG Parly election
    SNP stand on simple “Call Ref2 ”

    Simples , mind you be fecked if it failed

    I liked the option muted a few days back of another/sister party to hoover up the 2nd vote

    Sorry OT Anyone record GMS about 8.45 yesterday CEO of Chysor stating that $15 per barrel operating cost etc etc The interview was edited for TV cutting out all the facts about how many barrels still to be recovered from these “old” rigs. I was driving at the time so could not jot them down. His words after quoting figures “These are huge numbers” clearly he was justifying him billions of investment etc

    And there was me thinking oil was fecked ! O silly me !

    Try link , 2.45 in

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0890l44

  19. Dr Jim says:

    I don’t think the word Mandate means what he thinks it does

    Although they do conceal these meanings in dictionaries

    At first you say Whit? Then you say Whit!

    Then you say LOLZ

  20. The Man in the Jar says:

    We are now at the point where Scotland is looking around for someone to hold its jacket.

  21. Meg merrilees says:

    Maybe it’s time to release Robert Peffers onto them and state the real Constitutional position.

    I liked Alex’s statement that
    ‘it’s not just the entire Government, tory party and labour party but the entire country ( of England) that is about to disappear down the rabbit hole with Alice -THeresa-May- in-wonderland.’ and all respect to Ken Clarke who has the conviction to stand up to a PM with no mandate and vote against a government with no principles.

    WM is buoyed up as it thinks the SC has already given them the green light to walk all over the devolved nations; well they’re in for a surprise and ‘Oor Nicky’ won’t be put off that easily.

    As for the repeated comment that the SNP don’t have a majority in Holyrood I wonder how the tories and WM would fair under the D’hondt system. People need to know that our system is created to try and prevent a majority of any one party.

    Maybe the budget will fail, a Scottish election be called and we’ll get a thumping majority.

  22. We’ve got to take the Ruth with the Smooth, I’m afraid.
    Bools in the mouth smoothie Fallon sounds as though he has the authority to utter such pish, and we lesser mortals have just got to suck it up because he has such a posh voice.
    He’s posh, he must be clever, and he has authority over us, well, just because he’s posh.
    Posh pish, if you ask me.
    As you say,Stu, all our Christmases in one day.

  23. geeo says:

    @meg.

    Fun as that would be, no way will they take that chance, the budget will pass fairly easily.

    As for the Fallon interview…didn’t someone mention the real probability of a ‘high profile mistake’ just recently ..??

  24. Noel Darlow says:

    Fallon has defined a mandate as a majority at Holyrood.

    If/when the day comes when the SNP & SGP vote together in favour of a second referendum, Holyrood will have satisfied this definition.

    Thank you for your support Mr Fallon 🙂

  25. Macart says:

    Heh. Fallon… ? LOL

    There’s a conference in March isn’t there? Timing is about right and gives PM May a few weeks to consider the Scottish Government’s compromise very…very… carefully indeed. It really is a damn sight more generous than she or her government deserve.

    Dot the ‘i’ and cross the ‘t’. Procedure.

    Over to Ms May (tick tock).

  26. Meg merrilees says:

    Tackety beets @1.23

    I was bored so I listened to the item and typed up most of it. However I was then curious and looked up the Chrysaor company website. Fascinating.

    They think the N. Sea is about half-way through it’s operating life and that they do not anticipate any decommissioning costs for at least 20 years …

    https://www.chrysaor-future.com/en/about/the-assets/

    Have a look at their FAQ’s section…
    N. Sea oil isn’t finished!

    Apologies to the Rev for a slight O/T

    ‘Big deal in the N sea. ‘ BBC GMS Jan 31st.

    Shell is to sell a package of it’s assets in the N sea to exploration and and production company Chrysaor, for a total of up to £2.5 bn. The sale includes Shell’s interests in Buzzard, Beryl, Bressay,Everest, Lomond and a 10% stake in the Schiehallion fields. When the deal goes ahead it will make Chrysaor one of the biggest producers of oil and gas in the UK.

    Let’s speak to the company’s Chief executive, Phil Kirk …

    Tell us about this deal, it’s fairly mammoth isn’t it?

    It is a large deal and very important for the UK and the local economy, really positive, we’re going to be immediately one of the top producers in the UK, the boed (barrels of oil per day ) is 115,000 barrels of oil equivalent profitable, operating costs of about $15 per barrel and 350,000,000 barrels of reserves. Big numbers, yeah.

    Shell is retreating from the N sea and you are one of the bidders for these assets why do you think you can make it work when others can’t because Shell sees the N sea as too expensive?

    I’m not sure that Shell sees the UK as too expensive or really that they are retreating. I think Shell made a large acquisition with BP earlier and they’re now refocusing globally perhaps in Brazil and Australia but that enables us to acquire a while body of assets that maybe wouldn’t otherwise be available. There are some world class assets here, you mentioned Buzzard and Schiehallion, that anyone would be pleased to be a partner of, and the operator assets will be able to bring bring additional capital bear that perhaps Shell would have focused elsewhere in other countries.. We will have a bigger drilling programme than they would over the next few years and that’s really where we will add value.

    You’ve been described as a minnow… does that make you more nimble but also more exposed?

    I think we definitely are nimble. I wouldn’t necessarily describe us as a minnow. It depends on your measures. We’re going to have, when the transaction completes, we’re going to have a material …area, we’re looking to be a UK champion, champion for the base and for the supply chain, and for Scotland as well, so I wouldn’t describe us as being a minnow then, we’ll definitely be punching above our weight.

    I’m looking forward to talking to the local staff this afternoon. I think about 400 people are going to transfer as part of this deal. I’ll be reassuring them that we won’t be cutting terms and conditions. I’m not looking to lay anyone off, this is all about growth and investment for Scotland and the UK.

  27. Still Positive says:

    Our SNP MPs did us proud yesterday and today – too many to mention.

    They spoke with fire in their bellies and a great deal of anger as Scotland, in spite of voting 62% to remain in Europe, the Tories are determined to take us out without a plan.

    We will prevail, to paraphrases Alex Salmond, he said if Theresa May has the guts to throw down the gauntlet then she can be sure Nicola will pick it up

    aid

  28. Sharny Dubs says:

    Note how in the last paragraph he begins to refer to “she” in the singular?

    He seems to think Nicola is the “problem” when in truth it’s the Scottish people who want change, Nicola is just our First Minister charged with helping us deliver.
    And a fine First Minister too! Never have any problems telling folk wherever I go “that’s her, our head of government in Scotland”!! 🙂

  29. Arbroath1320 says:

    Come on Fallon ya coward, always hiding behind wee girls for protection from “nasty” journalists.

    Come up to Scotland today and repeat these lies WITHOUT your wee girl defender to protect you. Better still come right up into the middle of Scotland and stand in front an audience, a REAL audience, not one of your kissy kissy earse type of Tory love in audiences and repeat that. I dare you … ya coward!

  30. clan rossy says:

    it is all they have left now fear,smear and bullying
    tactics.

    the end is in sight its almost within touching distance
    there last resort will be to try and incite violence
    as indicated by that mad f—-r davidson .

    all we have to do is ignore them as it will infuriate
    them more and more then the mistakes will come big time

    then the people of scotland will
    realise its time to go our own ways
    and get out of this hell hole they have created
    down south

  31. DerekM says:

    You know it is becoming quite apparent that Houdini Dave and his wee gremlin assistant were actually the brains in the tory party astonishing lol

  32. Malky says:

    He forgot the ‘other voices’ in Ruthie’s head, telling her that she was actually relevant and newsworthy.

  33. Arbroath1320 says:

    Malky says:
    2 February, 2017 at 6:37 am

    He forgot the ‘other voices’ in Ruthie’s head, telling her that she was actually relevant and newsworthy.

    Who? 😉

    Oh you mean the fraticidal manic who never shuts up about Scottish independence. 😀

  34. Sandra says:

    Is Fallon the thickest member of the government? I know there’s a lot of competition but he makes Boris look like a genius.

  35. yesindyref2 says:

    From that article in the Herald, you have

    Fallon: “There are other voices in Scotland now, not least Ruth Davidson’s”

    who said before that the UK Government shouldn’t: “go round threatening to block a second referendum”.

    So, errr, ummm, he’s talking about a fellow Tory who’s talking about HIM!

    I hope she disciplines him.

  36. heedtracker says:

    What’s the Scottish swamp going to look like drained, with all kinds of colonial tory wankers sliming around.

  37. jimnarlene says:

    Sounds as though his cage, is well and truly rattled.

  38. Breeks says:

    I wish I could say I shared everybody’s confidence.

    The Unionists assert that Scotland was extinguished and ceased to exist beyond the act of Union. They act in all things as if this is an accepted reality and conventional reality. They maintain the line that Westminster wields a singular parliamentary sovereignty, and created a Supreme Court which tries, but doesn’t altogether succeed in doing to Scottish law what Westminster has been doing to Scottish sovereignty for centuries. The “Scottish” anomaly is truncated, boxed up and ignored in lieu of a fudged workaround which recognises Westminster as superior. Unionist parties build their arguments on this founding presumption, and the presumption is hammered home consistently by the Unionist media. The UK is a single entity which cannot be subdivided.

    Here in Scotland, we clutch on to the principle that our unique popular civic sovereignty which once defined Scotland’s unchallenged sovereign independence is misunderstood, misused, however come the great day, it will become the dominant opinion which once again prevails when the Unionist arguments are properly tested.

    The problem I have, and the problem I see, is that we lack self awareness in our own arguments.

    If we know we can hold our own referendum as a sovereign people, then why did seek an Edinburgh Agreement last time? Why do we accept the d’hondte electoral system and transferable votes which maintains the weaker parties with a life support mechanism strong enough, and designed to be strong enough to confound an outright majority? Why do we, a sovereign people, refrain from choosing a different system?

    Why do we tolerate hostile propaganda and allow it free reign to corrupt our domestic politics and malign our elected government? It’s a reserved matter!!! Not for a sovereign people it isn’t. Have a plebiscite to be rid of the BBC. Have us, the people of Scotland decide who’s news we listen to, not some Joseph Goebbles wannabe in London town.

    If we know the UK Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over Scottish sovereignty, a fact the Supreme Court has recognised itself, then why do we as a Nation respect the Supreme Courts ajudication which directly undermines and emasculates Scotland’s sovereign voice?

    If we now know the Sewell Commission is worthless, the Holywood parliament is toothless, then why do we not rise up and dump the faux mechanisms of false government which pander to the notion that Scottish sovereignty was extinguished and is now manifest forevermore in UK sovereignty?

    Why are we accepting these judgements and assertions when we know we have the means to overturn them?

    Every time we kneel down before yet another Unionist/British assault or slight against our inalienable sovereignty, isn’t it ourselves who are guilty of empowering the unjust mechanism of “UK” sovereignty?

    If we are a sovereign people, then when do we start acting like one? When do we start to actively reject the myth of Scotland being extinguished? Every time we don’t, everytime we let the assertion pass unchallenged, we add a brick to their wall instead of adding one to ours. We have had 300 years of adding bricks to their walls and shoring up “their” UK with our supine complicity.

    When will we understand, and I mean properly understand, that asking for permission to be sovereign is a de facto acknowledgement that you don’t understand the point of sovereignty?

  39. JLT says:

    This is arrogance of the highest level.

    Fallon is fuelling resentment by coming out with a statement like that. He mentions a ‘two-way’ system and ‘respect’, but Westminster has shown neither of this over Brexit. Scotland’s people, her voice, her opinions …even the result …have all been 100% ignored.

    Even in the aftermath of Brexit, Scotland will receive no new powers. We will not get control of Fishing or Farming. Firstly, that puts Mundell in a very awkward and difficult position. He stated …even hinted …that we ‘might’ get powers. But through all of this, we got nothing. So why should we expect anything else.

    Secondly, Fallon names ‘Ruth Davidson’. That’s not a deflection, but it has also created a target. He’s basically telling people to take their anger and go and speak to Ruth (or direct it at her). For Ruthie, it looks like the Westminster Tory machine just threw her under a bus. That means in their eyes, she’s expendable. I wonder how she’ll view Fallon’s statement over breakfast this morning. Somehow, I suspect that the voice in her head will say ‘oh no!’ when she reads The Herald’s article. She has got a lot of answering to do now. Scotland has been given nothing. She needs to explain why.

    As for Kezia. Who cares.

    Not pleasant reading this morning. But one thing is for sure; the breakup of the United Kingdom was never going to be a peaceful, harmonious affair. It’s going to be bitter. Really bitter …and it’s going to leave the relationship between the two nations at a level not seen since the Civil War of the mid-seventeenth century.

    But …if Fallon and co begin spouting this nonsense …then the Yes figures will climb, and climb quickly. Tory arrogance will finally break the Union. All we have to do is allow them to get on with it and just watch our numbers swell.

  40. Chitterinlicht says:

    It is now or never.

    I just hope enough people care enough to vote.

  41. Macart says:

    Oh they’re in a bit of a tiz this morning. Had a wee scan of the usual suspects and Jings!

    There’s an awful lot of ‘urging’ going on oot there. I won’t spoil it as Nana should be along any time now 😀 LOL

    Something our frothy friends in the meeja and Westminster need to remember though.

    The First Minister of Scotland doesn’t answer to their urging. I very much doubt she’ll be pushed and she certainly won’t jump. The First Minister will affect the appropriate response at the appropriate time. 🙂

  42. Arthur Martin says:

    Game on! and it’s going to be very messy.
    I hope that the majority of Scots have the stomach for this. ProjectFear1 will be nothing on what is coming next. I’m ready, just point me towards the polling booth.

  43. heedtracker says:

    Breeks, its because its still 50/50 in Scotland today?

  44. Hamish100 says:

    Ian Murray being promoted by GMS. He voted against Corbyn more than he voted for remain. Will he support snp amendments- of course not – he is a unionist at heart . Grandstanding with the help of BBC. For fairness all other MP’s should be on.
    Labour apologist from England now on – saying exactly the opposite – helped by the BBC

  45. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Meg merrilees

    As much as I’d like to see only the positive in that Chrysaor interview, and don’t mean to piss on anyone’s chips, it’s unlikely Shell would have sold anything so allegedly valuable to concentrate on other areas unless the sites sold were entering a period of diminishing returns that will eventually result in expensive decommissioning a relatively short time later. I’d be interested to see how much Transocean’s Rig rent has decreased, too.

    This is a more enlightening article that thankfully avoids the spin of the Chrysaor exec who is just maybe trying to attract investment by exaggerating potential.

    https://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/13279/shell-sets-trend-by-sharing-north-sea-decommissioning-costs/

    It seems to be a zero-sum game to spread costs and make money in those fields’ twilight years. Best not to concentrate on this particular deal.

  46. scottieDog says:

    Wonder if it will finally dawn on people how scotland is provider in chief to the uk

  47. Hamish100 says:

    Fallon on GMS telling The Scottish Government what to do. I think he is Ruth Davidson in drag. Same words parrot fashion

  48. heedtracker says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Big oil corps pay 8% dividend to their biggest share holders, your even bigger pension funds. Even half that is still worth it for anyone, big hedge funds love it too.

  49. yesindyref2 says:

    Sheesh, that BBC. “The price of oil is about $50”.

    No it isn’t, it’s over $56!

  50. People Carrier says:

    I think this is deeply troubling. Scotland is closer to independence than ever. Ruth Davidson ups the ante (preceded by a few years of the dog whistle), and now this. They are trying to lay the ground for confrontation. They won’t prevent a referendum when it is proposed, they will try to divide by unrest before that happens, and during the process. The end game is in sight, we must endeavour to keep it sane and as pleasant as possible.

  51. Snode1965 says:

    Michael Fallon has just confirmed, on BBC GMS, that the Tory government will indeed block indie ref 2.

  52. Nana says:

    Oops did not spot a new thread, do you guys and gals ever sleep? lol

    Links on previous thread

  53. Dal Riata says:

    Arrogant Tory prick!

    ‘Shut up, eat your cereal, then bow before your Imperial masters… forever!’

    This a prime example of what it will mean to be under forever-Tory control in fundamentally fascist Post-Brexitland: ‘Any dissent – whatsoever – will not be allowed, indeed, it will be deemed as an unlawful act and will be dealt with harshly and without reproach… especially you Scotch [sic]. Mark our words. You have been warned!’

    How much more of this patronising, pompous Westminster river of pish does it take for a sizable majority of the Scottish population to get off their knees and say, ‘Enough already! This is our country, not yours. No more dictating terms. We’re off! Independence it is. And you lot in Westminster can GIRFUYz!’

    If not now, when?

  54. Macart says:

    I’m sure this white paper with its sooper dooper deal (slightly light on detail) will go terribly well with the troops in commons. It’ll go down well with those who wish to leave the EU too I should think. In fact I’m sure leave voters, especially in England will be more than satisfied with progress about now.

    Mind you, that deal… there may be a small bump in the road there. The whole bargaining chips thing. Would folks reckon that drinks export may be one of those? How about fishing? How about … people? EU citizens of continental origin, say around 190,000. Any number of other things actually and not just as important as human beings either.

    What happens to Ms May’s deal if those things are removed from her bargaining table? What happens if around 10% of her annual budget and tax take and budget is no longer there to be counted upon, or access to some fairly hefty resources which help underwrite a fairly hefty debt?

    What happens to EU opinion about Scotland if Scotland assures the welcome and safety of continental EU citizens, provides a welcome for a lot of UK based EU businesses who thought they may be headed home? Is willing to chat about energy, agriculture, fishing and such (no promises mind).

    What happens to that deal if Ms May loses the ability to control some sizable bargaining chips?

    She’s the one who likes to use poker analogies about people’s lives. Her government and to be fair a few others before her, are the ones who created a system and society willing to accept such appalling analogies. Buzz phrases and soundbites which cheapen life, degrade and demonise others for agenda, profit and cheap fucking political advantage.

    What happens to her ‘deal’, her negotiating position when she doesn’t have the hand she thought she had and the other ‘players’ know it?

  55. Ghillie says:

    Hmmm…

    I wonder if Mr Fallon was flustered into shooting his bolt too soon.

    Or was it just the opportunity for arrogance and pompousness that was just too deliciously overwhelming for the poor chap?

    Dont fancy being in his boots when he has to explain himself to Dismay.

  56. robertknight says:

    Dear Mr Fallon

    The UK which Scotland voted to remain a part was an EU member state.

    Better Together made a huge play on the threats to an Indy Scotland’s continued EU membership, versus the guaranteed benefits to Scotland of EU membership as part of the UK. I distinctly remember seeing literature from UKOK claiming the a Yes vote was the certain means of Scotland losing the benefits of EU membership.

    In September 2014 there was no Tory majority government elected on a manifesto pledge to hold an EU In/Out referendum, let alone was anyone seriously considering such at that time. As with the 2016 referendum result itself, the general election result of 2015 was entirely unexpected and the 2014 referendum was held without anticipating either outcome.

    Therefore to suggest that the majority in Scotland who elected to Remain, plus the vast majority of MSPs and MPs in Scotland who oppose the UK government’s Brexit strategy, should simply shut up on the basis of the outcome of the 2014 referendum is displaying a degree of arrogance on a par with the worst 19th Century forms of British Colonial Administration, and a twisting of the facts that would make a criminal defence solicitor blush.

  57. Mike says:

    I fully expect a UK Government to block a second Indy ref if they feel there is at least an even chance of losing it.
    They only agreed to Indyref 1 because the Yes vote was so far behind in the polls. They got one hell of a fright when we took it so close.
    I believe Nicola Sturgeon understands this which is why she is painting the UK Government into a corner with her concessions. She is giving the UK Government all the rope in needs to hang itself.
    The world is watching both the UK and the US just now. They see the US turning its back on Democracy They are going to witness the UK do the same.
    Everything will depend on how they react to it.
    At the very least the world will fully recognise the despotic nature of the undemocratic UK of GB for themselves.
    Its possible that UDI may very well be our only option.
    Brace yourselves.

  58. Brian Powell says:

    Of course they only went for the last one because they thought they would win easily. Westminster loaded with sluggard ‘Scottish’ MPs saying it would be a piece of cake.

    Now we have 56 SNP MPs and independence majority in Holyrood.

  59. orri says:

    Strategically striking too soon and too late can be just as bad.

    Part of this bollocks is an attempt to seem to be in control just as the polls showing a lack of desire for indyref2 in 2017 were being touted as ever holding one.

    To inform Fallon, two parties in Hollyrood have a conditional mandate for indyref2.

    The SNP’s condition has now been met unless there’s a seachange in Westminster’s attitude as far as finding a way for Scotland, and possibly others, to remain in at least the single Market.

    The Greens set a fairly high bar as far as a petition went. However the SNP has 120,000 members who might be enough of a pain in the neck to persuade 7 to 8 of their friends to sign an online petition. The actual mechanism to count signatures is readily available for free.

    Alternatively there’re Green MSPs who were previously in the SNP and might simply break ranks and vote in favour of indyref2 or the Greens might decide that their core values are better served in an independent Scotland than a post-Brexit UK intent on Trident renewal and Nuclear power generation.

  60. Paul Newton says:

    Who is this Ruth Harrison?
    Fallon mentioned her this morning on GMS as the “voice of Scotland” I wonder is she nicer than that Davidson woman?

  61. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ heedtracker, re: Oil

    Nae doubt about that, my friend. I’ve got no objection to their mere existence, though; just don’t want anybody under the wrong impression. I may not have mentioned any positive inferences I took from the deal, but they’re there. Where? Over there by the pensions!

  62. ScottieDog says:

    @paul newton

    “Who is this Ruth Harrison?”

    Here she is…
    http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0365854/

    Maybe the tories are trying to woo the male voters.. LOL

  63. David P says:

    Michael Fallon has set up Ruth Davidson to be fed to the lions at today’s First Minister’s Questions. For those of a nervous disposition – you probably don’t want to watch this rerun of the Circus Maximus at Holyrood this lunchtime.

    Will there be a medical team on standby?

    More seriously, when will she realise that she is regarded as cannon fodder by her Westminster overlords?

  64. Breeks says:

    heedtracker says:
    2 February, 2017 at 7:54 am
    Breeks, its because its still 50/50 in Scotland today?

    But it isn’t Heed, that’s the whole point, sovereignty is a binary yes or no option; we are sovereign or we aren’t. Democratic opinion cannot change it, so if it’s not sovereignty at stake, exactly what is it we are testing in a vote?

    We might elect to ignore the truth or embrace it, and do that democratically, but that’s not the same thing. We cannot change what is and remains an absolute condition. And even then, suppose we did elect to ignore or embrace the truth, without due observance of our sovereignty, the democratic mandate would be utterly meaningless.

    It’s quite literally the very definition of a catch 22, you cannot vote to have or reject sovereignty unless you have sovereignty to empower your decision and give it legitimacy, and if you decide you have no sovereignty, then your decision is at once nullified without the sovereignty you need to empower the decision. It’s mind feck stuff, but it all shakes clear, and ONLY shakes clear, if you accept we ARE sovereign, but we are living in a curious “through the looking glass” world where the truth has been stood upon its head. But democracy cannot undo it. Only the rule of law can, and it is then, when we use democracy to ratify whether we accept the law.

    How can I explain it? It’s like when you own a car, it’s impossible for you to steal it because you own it. Without first recognising the fundamental concept ownership, the concept of theft is meaningless. Without first recognising the fundamental concept of Scottish sovereignty, the concept of Scottish democracy is meaningless.

  65. wull2 says:

    Tackety Beets says:
    2 February, 2017 at 1:23 am
    “How I dream that Derek Mackay fails to get support for his budget and we have another SG Parly election
    SNP stand on simple “Call Ref2 ”

    SNAP says Wull2

  66. Dr Jim says:

    Will Ruth Harrison defend Michael Fillin stoatment on blicking a referundem in Scitlond at todays FMQs or will she bittle it

    The opposition keep giving and giving with their stipudity

  67. Dal Riata says:

    Remember this?…

    “The Herald’s view: we back staying within UK, but only if there’s more far-reaching further devolution”.

    Yup, “but only if…”

    So then, Herald, that “more far-reaching further devolution” thingy… how’s that coming along, huh?

    Its been more than two years, Herald, since you came out with that statement. You’re still rabid Unionists, actually even more so than in 2014. So what happened to “but only if…”?

    Just another example of the lying, cowardly and mendacious MSM, particularly in Scotland.

    The Herald should just rename itself the ‘Westminster Herald’ and be done with it.

  68. Les Wilson says:

    Well,at the end of the day Fallon is producing the usual smoke screen. Fact is Scotland’s wishes have been rejected, our status diminished, no respect in Westminster.We will have to deal with that,and we will.

    I remember A.Salmond commenting that Cameron said something similar as Fallon just has prior to Indy1, but agreed to “allow” the referendum right after it was voted for in Holyrood.

    That would suggest he was well aware of the situation in Scotland, and once we voted for Indy1 in Holyrood, he had to accept it was going to happen.So that is the only reason I can see that he announced he would allow it, he had too.

    Same will happen this time, despite all the bluster and threats, and for the same reasons.

    This time they will be ultra nervous, as they well know their case is weak, their scare stories mostly used up against Indy1 and we have much more positives now.Propaganda will reach high levels again,but we are much more capable now in rebuffing it.

    The will reap what they have sown.We need to start preparing now.

  69. Camie McLeod says:

    Its India all over again for the english elite, lies and more lies, and when lying is failing, lie some more and included some belligerence and threats!

    I choose my words carefully here, both in Indian and in uk history books, the chosen description of the colonialists / imperialist was english on behalf of the british empire.

    What is different in Scotland in 2017?

  70. Breeks says:

    There you go Ruthie.

    You’re selling out Scotland and your own integrity for a master who doesn’t even remember your name.

    A couple of years after Indy, and we won’t remember it either.

  71. Robert Louis says:

    So, Ruth Davidsons Tories in a spin, because they stated they would prevent a Scottish independence referendum. Of course now, they are denying it, but we all can see in full technicolor, the utter depravity and undemocratic attitude of Ruth Davidsons Tories.

    Honestly, please, please, please keep blocking it. Scots love nothing better than a rich upper class twit Tory telling them their opinion does not matter.

    After all the scary rubbish from the homophobic, racist, misogynist, sexist, white supremacist, idiot American president Trump, the Tory party have really cheered me up today.

    As a side note, it would be great to get Michael Fallon to participate in an indy 2 debate in Scotland (not by the BBC), because I think his sneering contempt for Scots hides just under a very, very thin veneer. Scratch it, and we’ll see him really let rip with his hatred of Scots. A right snivelling Tory, so he is.

  72. heedtracker says:

    Breeks, How can I explain it? It’s like when you own a car, it’s impossible for you to steal it because you own it.

    But at present, the Scottish car is also 70% owned by England, rather tories like Fallon. We consented to continue this shared ownership 2014 and now Fallonious tories like the Fluster say that’s it, its all over now, shut up.

    After the council elections, if they do swing away from very hard core unionists, Brexit will make sovereignty even more important. Or will majority of Scots say ok that really is enough of tory England now.

  73. Cuilean says:

    Until we are out of the EU, all Scots remain EU citizens with the right to protection from the EU. I don’t think the EU will stand by and just watch England ride rough shod over Scotland (and Eire certainly won’t for N Ireland). Once Article 50 is triggered the Tories will be in a world of shit, which BBC Reporting Scotland etc won’t be able to ‘gloss over’ (distort the truth) this time around.

  74. galamcennalath says:

    Michael Fallon, yet another fine asset to the Indy cause.

    In IndyRef1 the Tories had their Labour stooges to act as front guys. An aspect of IndyRef2, which is going to be hilarious, will be watching the Tories trying to run a BT2 campaign themselves.

    Naw doot Ruth the Mooth will be prominent, and she’s as much a Tory as the rest of them – disconnected from Scotland and full of entitlement.

  75. Robert Louis says:

    Reluctanct Nationalist at 0759am,

    I can assure you, this deal would not have happened if it were not as good for them as they say. Global organisations regularly divest of operations, in order to maximise their efforts in specific regions, where returns may be better – as is the case here with Shell. It is similar to when large global companies do not submit tenders for very small contracts, since they are not always a good way of maximising profitability.

    Due dilligence will have been done, and the deal will have been approved by the board of directors. Of course all CEO’s talk up their business potential, since that is part of their job description (maximising share price), but given the scale of this deal, I think we can trust what the Chrysaor CEO said.

  76. Douglas says:

    I wonder if he has let slip a hint of their plan (and it does worry me):
    1. Scottish Parliament vote for IndyRef2
    2. Westminster refuse (ground prepared by ‘respect the 2014 result’ meme being repeated lots in advance).
    3. Agent provocateur action -see 1950s Scottish post boxes vandalism for an example (ground now prepared by memes about ‘Ulsterisation’ and Ruth’s ‘Fratricidal conflict’ -neither of which are accidental).
    4. Fear of violence
    5. Indy support falls as it is tarred with the same brush as Fascism.

    I’ve been scratching my head for a while trying to work out why they seem to be acting so stupid… I now wonder if they do actually hava a plan (albeit evil).

    They tried very hard last time and only got a couple of eggs for their trouble. They will try harder next time -even if they have to do it themselves.

    Warm stout hearts and cool heads needed.

    ‘Always forgive your enemies, nothing annoys them quite so much’ -Oscar Wilde

  77. Breeks says:

    heedtracker says:
    2 February, 2017 at 9:19 am

    But at present, the Scottish car is also 70% owned by England…..

    No it isn’t. They may have the keys, they may have our consent to drive, and it’s parked in their garage, but the legal definition of ownership remains ours.

    If we now wish to take back the keys, withdraw consent to drive, and park the car in our own garage, it is our undisputed ownership recognised by law which will see it happen. They might claim to be owners, but we have proof they are not.

  78. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Ruth Davidson (or Harrison to her close friends) is nothing more than a “Useful Idiot” used and abused by the English Tory Party AND BBC Scotland.

    Ruth, vote for Scottish Independence and become the true leader of the Scottish Conservative Party.

    What are you so afraid of???

  79. orri says:

    The complication re-sovereignty is that there are two basis for who owns it in Westminster but the one they prefer has no legal standing in Scotland. Their claim to Parliamentary Sovereignty is based on the idea that the monarch held power which they wrested from them for their own usage.

    Even the so called Royal Prerogative is powers theoretically still in control of the Crown but actually the last time a monarch used the power to refuse Royal Assent was by Queen Anne in 1704, pre the Acts of Union. According to the Scotland Act the ability to advise is in the power of the First Minister as far as devolved matters go. As that was previously in the hands of the Secretary of State for Scotland you might assume that the transfer was to cut of at the pass any attempt by a hostile Westminster government to veto legislation passed by Holyrood.

    On legality though it’s fairly clear that we need not concern ourselves with the laws of England as far as determining where sovereignty truly lies. We have court cases denying that Parliamentary Sovereignty exists as a concept in Scottish Law and the recognition by the Supreme Court that once we declare independence they no longer hold any jurisdiction, even if you argue they hold none now.

    The major Catch 22 in all of this is who amongst Scotland’s elected representatives hold the right to act on our behalf as inheritors of the parliament that signed us in to this mess in the first place. Fallon by opening his mouth has done us a favour by arguing that the SNP at Hollyrood have no electoral mandate which removes any doubt that it’s there we should look. The only other place it could be would be Westminster with it’s near wipe out of unionist MPs representing Scotland.

  80. galamcennalath says:

    robertknight says:

    ……Tory majority government elected on a manifesto pledge to hold an EU In/Out referendum,…

    It’s always worth reminding ourselves of where the Tories stood even after IndyRef1. From the Conservative General Election Manifesto…..

    Our commitment to you …. reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests in the Single Market”

    “We are clear about what we want from Europe. We say: yes to the Single Market. Yes to turbo- charging free trade. Yes to working together where we are stronger together than alone

    …. even if contemplating Leaving the EU, they went into the 2015 election on a firm commitment to the single market! They have zero mandate for a hard Brexit.

  81. galamcennalath says:

    Perhaps WM will try to attach conditions to Indyref2, like agreeing to it but only after Brexit has happened.

  82. dakk says:

    @Valerie 1.18 an

    ‘He has a posh accent but I can’t hear Scots in it.’

    You wouldn’t.

    Any more you would hear it from the likes of Michael Gove or Tessa Jowel.

    Born in Perth and went to St Andrews University apparently.

    Amorphous enemies of Scotland,the lot of them.

  83. Wullie B says:

    The Tory Party
    They are so generous to keep giving thew Scottish Government and the Yes movement ammunition to use against them, who are they to try and deny the sovreign will of the Scottish people with one MP and a few MSPs many who got in through the baack door, just as well for them that Westminster controlled assholes designed the PR vote , because if List MSPs were FPTP then the SNP qouldnt hold just a minority, it would have been a resounding majority

  84. Proud Cybernat says:

    The blue Tories will block IR2? Really?

    It make you wonder…

    http://imgur.com/kJEsxoc

    Just try it.

  85. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Bernard Ponsonby of STV has to hunt down and nail Defense Secretary Micheal Fallon today.

    He tried to interview him the last time he visited BEA Systems at Govan Shipbuilders. That interview went viral. So let’s hope Ponsonby grabs Fallon and gets him to say on live television that Westminster will block IndyRef2.

  86. Richard MacKinnon says:

    People Carrier

    2 February, 2017 at 8:23 am

    “I think this is deeply troubling. Scotland is closer to independence than ever”.
    I agree with your first statement but not the second.
    I have always thought this is how the Tories will play this. What they are doing is forcing the SNP into a corner by not recognising the legitimacy of a second Scottish referendum. If Nicola Sturgeon goes ahead and calls a referendum with out Westminster consent and the Tories in Scotland don’t take part the result can be 90% Yes but on a 30 to 40% turn out the result will mean nothing.

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    Sturgeon on Twitter:

    Serious backpeddling from Michael Fallon on GMS on blocking #indyref2. Must have realised what a disastrous move it would be for Tories.

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/827069633316450304

  88. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Douglas

    2 February, 2017 at 9:34 am

    “I’ve been scratching my head for a while trying to work out why they seem to be acting so stupid… I now wonder if they do actually hava a plan (albeit evil)”.

    Of course they have a plan. It is stand back and say “go ahead but we do not recognise the legitimacy of a second referendum’. It is a perfectly reasonable tactic. To hold a Yes/No, In/Out, Leave/Remain referendum there needs to be a debate. If one side decides not to take part and the other goes ahead the result can be 90% Yes, but on a low turnout it will mean nothing.

  89. Valerie says:

    Haha, yesindyref2

    Just goes to show how on the ball Nicola and her team are, even when she is preparing for FMQs.

    As I said on Twitter, the Rev will be looking for clueless zoomers to take his bet, that Westminster won’t block another vote.

    I don’t think for a minute that the SG are unprepared, or that they will be pushed before they are ready. They will now be working at least to the trigger Bill progression, so March is the earliest for calling our referendum, but who knows what will happen next?

    Another few folk on Twitter saying they had joined the SNP so they could sleep better.

    I think there are still some Unionists that believed the Tories would somehow pull back.

  90. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T.
    http://www.forth-bridges.co.uk/queensferry-crossing/gallery-queens/forth-road-bridge-webcam.html

    centre span being lifted into position today. Live Feed

  91. Andrew McLean says:

    Michael Fallon, oh dear, not very bright,

    I heard him talking this morning on the imperial big brother radio channel, backtracking on what he said to the Herald. He was asked the same question reverently twice by a sycophantic Garry Robertson, and he actually laughed, reminded me of a chap that once worked with me, he too came across with a strong professional with a no nonsense approach, he to laughed at any misspoken words, after a while re realised he was a functioning alcoholic.

    But why do we not have decent interviewers, that was an open goal Garry, grow some balls! A here today gone tomorrow politician with a party that has only 24.3 per cent of all of registered voters,in the uk, and in Scotland only 10.6 per cent of registered voters support the Conservatives, In 1951, the equivalent number was 39.4 per cent. was that peak conservatism? coming out with utter crap and like a good boy Garry you supped it all up, Fallon’s an arse, even Fallon’s arse thinks him an arse, but you Garry, that display was apathetic, sycophantic, and fawning, you want his private number or something Garry?.

    What was telling was that he has been listening to Ruth what’s her name far to much, and if he thinks Labour voters will vote Tory in a protestant fervour, he is sadly mistaken.

    Norway has one of the largest and most comprehensive maritime sectors in global terms. The offshore fleet is the second largest in the world and the industry is characterized by its high competence, innovation and advanced technology.

    All together there are 75 yards which are focusing on new building and ships repair. There are approx. 25 pure new building yards

    But hthats not all Norwegian International Ship Register has up until 2016 573 ships with a total gross register tonnage of 14.8 million tons.

    Today, the Norwegian shipbuilding industry, including the equipment industry, employs directly approximately 20.000 people. The shipyards employ 5.000 persons. The short time employees, hired labour have been about 3.500 in the shipyards. The maritime industry however, including shipyards, ship owners, equipment industry and services employs approximately 90.000 persons. Norwegian maritime industry is an innovative sector much based on human resources and competence.

    Scotland lifts its kilt bends over and takes Fallons minuscule offerings.

    Well done unionists, pooling and sharing, best country in the world, ruth Davidson on a tank, proud butt always ready, begging for a couple of ships YIPE! another Ship!!!

    Scotland my Scotland WAKE THE FUCK UP!

  92. Colin West says:

    Anyone thinking we can’t hold a second referendum without Westminister’s consent should bear one question in mind.

    “If it was in Westminister’s power to stop an independence referendum even happening, why haven’t they already done so instead of constantly begging the SNP to take the option off the table?”

  93. mike cassidy says:

    Worth reading – though someone dwelling among the Jesuits of Spokane may not be aware of the fallon factor!

    http://archive.is/6cimX

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzaga_University

    And Mr Swan seems very reluctant to provide info about himself.

    Has he been checked out before on this site?

    http://www.gonzaga.edu/academics/colleges-and-schools/college-of-arts-and-sciences/majors-programs/International-Studies/faculty.asp

  94. DerekM says:

    Oh Richard you are such a pathetic little yoon troll.

    So this is all a big tory plan is what you mean like the one they have for brexit lmao muppet

  95. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I liked the suggestion, on the Rev’s Twitter feed, that we start calling Ruth “Harrison” Davidson “Indy” – after Harrison Ford’s best-known character.

    We could always take it further, and refer to her as: “Junior” in the same condescending tone as Sir Sean Connery used when playing Indy’s dad in ‘Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade”.

  96. shug says:

    Did the Labour party vote through the Tory Brexit legislation last night?

    Just asking

    Did not see it in the Record today!!

  97. Ken500 says:

    The Tiories have 12 of a ‘majority’. They committed fraud in 31 constiuencies to foil UKIP with only one or two MP’s. One can’t make up his mind. UKIP committed electoral fraud. Farague despite several attempts can’t get elected to Westminster. He has committed electoral fraud by funding a Political Party with public money for years. Protected by. Tory grandees and their criminal associates. So they can tax evade, pay no tax, and defraud public money. The only reason they are in politics. They line their own pockets troughing on public money.

    The Tories did not get a majority. 30%? of the vote. Labour/Libdem are really useless. They have let this happen, by supporting Cameron. The worst PM in living memory, followed by Teresa May. An Evel liar. In Westminster a majority is 27%.

    None of the Unionists got any majority. All Law breaking the Parties. Impunity above the Law. Most of them should be in jail. They are now illegally trying to take the UK out of the EU by telling a load of lies. The majority in the UK want do stay in the EU for trade, jobs and travel.

    Fallon supports a missile that doesn’t even fire straight. Wasting £Billions of public money. Putting Scotland in immense danger. They should plant it on the Thames. , They closed Greenham Common 20mins from London in 1992 but maintain Faslane 30mins from Glasgow. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Fallon and his Party have no relevance in Scotland. Losers.

    Osbourne damaged the Oil sector with illegally high antes when the price had fallen. Costing Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. They are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people. Engaging in illegal military activities killing and maiming millions innocent people. Blowing the Middle East to bits for over 13 years. Costing £Trns of debt. They caused the biggest migration crisis in Europe since 11WW, with their devious policies.

    There are 4million displaced people in Syria, out of a original population of 20Million. A fifth have been displaced, killed or traffiked.Innocent men women and children, Disabled vulnerable people. Westminster has taken 10,000 refugees. Other countries in Europe had had to shoulder the burden costing £Trns. Germany has taken the biggest amount of desperate refugee people. 2million of displaced people. Other EU countries have stepped up to help. The only way to solve the crisis is to stop illegal invasions and rebuild the devastation. Trade and give aid do not invade.

    The Tories are wasting £Billions of public money to line their associates pockets, in fee, consultancies, expenses and backhanders. The Tories are the only association in the world who have banned renewables and support nuclear. The dearest, most dangerous and dirtiest methods in the world. Labour/LibDems are no better a useless shambles. They enable the Tories.

    The EU have paid €Billions putting another cover on the Chernobyl damaged radiation centre. It will not last 100 years and there will still be radiation contamination. After Japan, all countries in the world have moved away from nurclear, except Westminster Unionists. They are destroying the world economy. Fallon is trying to get away with it. Lying in the Commons. Malicious compulsive liars. The go red when they tell their lies. They are allowed to say what they want, without challenge in Westminster.

    Hammond sniggered and squirmed at the idea of a Scottish Navy. i.e. Defence Committee. Lied about the cost of decommissioning Trident and claimed Scotland would have to pay for it. Despite the majority do not want it in Scotland or have to pay for it. Decommission would cost less than it takes to support the system.

    Scotland doesn’t even have boats to patrol it!s shores to prevent drug smuggling and protect the fishing, North sea interests. Despite paying £Billions towards Defence/illegal,wars. £1Billion on squint, dangerous Trident under US control which could not protect anything. In fact the direct opposite.

    The Tories have cut spending on essential services and social care. Cut NHS/Education. Cut welfare benefits for the most deprived. The ‘bedroom tax’ puts up homelessness and costs more. Homelessness in England has increased 100% since the Tories came to givernance. At least 4000 people sleep rough with no adequate support or allowances. Suicide rates have increased. People are being left destitute. It would take minimum funding to resolve these issues.

    £500Billion is being soent on Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow (all S/E) and Trident. Putting up the debt. There are credible alternatives. All will be obsolete and redundant before they are finished. A disaster waiting to happen. Vulnerable people are being neglected and starved to death. Essential services are being cut. Living standards are falling. Cost of living is rising. The shores are eroding. The UK is the most unequal country in the world.

    Hammond spent £2Billion upgrading and modifying Navy helicopters. Goodwin (Tory Transport minister) refused to hold an Inquiry when 5 helicopters in four years fell into the North Sea killing Oil workers and devastating lives with inadequate compensation. The Westminster Transport Committee supported an Inqury. Recommendation blamed the workers. The should lose weigh and sit nearer bigger windows. Totally inadequate.

    The owners of the helicopter firm involved in the 2009 catastrophe sold up two years later for £250Million with no sanctions or penalties. Disobeying UK H & S rules required to create a paper chain of information. Phoned instructions which were not recorded or the helicopter would have been grounded for the catastrophic fault causing the tragedy. It could still,happen. H & S rules are broken with impunity. Not enough orotection in the North Sea.

    Fallon is so out of touch. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic. Westminster out of touch Ministers. Responsible for causing the death of millions of innocent people and destroying the world economy.

    Aye bring it on.

  98. velofello says:

    ” No Games on a Sunday”. Remember that?

    “Why? Because we, the church say so”. And now?

    Two fingers to their Supreme Court, and their Sewel wording chicanery of “because they say so”. We need to assert ourselves, and pay little or no heed to the utterings of Fallon or whoever. Do you believe that are/will be ever honest with you?

  99. Proud Cybernat says:

    “I liked the suggestion, on the Rev’s Twitter feed, that we start calling Ruth “Harrison” Davidson “Indy” – after Harrison Ford’s best-known character.”

    Given her fratricide rubbish the other day, ‘Bomber Harrison’ might be more appropriate.

  100. Proud Cybernat says:

    …and, of course, her penchant for straddling tanks.

  101. Richard MacKinnon says:

    DerekM

    2 February, 2017 at 10:32 am

    Remember where you heard it first.
    XX

  102. Doug says:

    I’ve not had time to read all the posts above, but it occurs to me that perhaps for the next Holyrood Election (or indeed any non-first past the post election) that a second pro Independence Party should be launched but it only stands list MSP candidates leaving the constituency clear.

    Perhaps the Scottish Freedom of Movement Party? Perhaps only 5 Manifesto pledges
    1) Independence from Westminster
    2) Remain in the EU failing that..
    3) Remain in the EEA
    4) Remain in the European Court of Justice / Human Rights membership (I don’t have the time right now to get the correct terminology while on the phone)
    5) Invest in and expand the NHS and medical research – perhaps a massive spending on finding the next batch of antibiotics which the nation would profit from with patents going forward?

    Surely no-one who is of sound mind would be upset with any of the above.

    This would allow the SNP to hoover up the Constituency votes and FOM party would get the list votes that normally would go to the SNP? It would also show that this isn’t just an SNP or even a Green issue – its bigger than that.

    My dream is a post Indy Scotland where the SNP is formally disbanded within the first Indy Parliament having served its purpose and we a new number of parties giving folks more choice are born.

  103. Auld Rock says:

    Maybe he’ll listen to an AK47 and C4!!!!!!!!

    Fallon would do well to go and dust off his History books.

    Auld Rock

  104. DerekM says:

    Oh Richard i heard it first in 2012 or 2013 or maybe it was 1979 hmmmm.

    Same pish a different day.

  105. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Edin Eve News poll:

    ‘Another indyref in lifetime of this (WM) parliament?’

    Currently 46% Yes
    54% No

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-slams-tory-bid-to-block-indyref2-plans-1-4355843

  106. Valerie says:

    Yay!

    Respect where it’s due. Mackay has reached agreement with the Greens on budget.

    Pleased about that.

  107. Richard MacKinnon says:

    DerekM

    2 February, 2017 at 10:32 am

    I cant help it. I say it as I see it. Remember where you heard it first.

  108. Breeks says:

    Richard MacKinnon says:
    2 February, 2017 at 9:55 am
    People Carrier

    2 February, 2017 at 8:23 am

    “……If Nicola Sturgeon goes ahead and calls a referendum with out Westminster consent and the Tories in Scotland don’t take part the result can be 90% Yes but on a 30 to 40% turn out the result will mean nothing.”

    It won’t mean nothing Richard, but I would concede it may be held in similar contempt by Unionists as the 2014 Yes result is held by independentists; a bogus result secured by propaganda, intimidation, false promises and outright cheating of electoral protocols.

    No need to fret however, I don’t think however that Unionism will get that lucky, nor Nicola Sturgeon that dumb.

  109. Graf Midgehunter says:

    12.00 is FMQ time.

    Watch the truth and not the BBC fiddled version.

    http://www.scottishparliament.tv/

  110. mogabee says:

    No matter what Fallon and the rest of the Tories say in public, they know there is going to be a referendum on Indy in the not too distant future.

    It’s all a front. We know how Tories like to be viewed as strong and confidant, but in reality they are feart of how determined Scotland has been in getting “control” back!

    It’s a challenge, a game, and we have to be ready to play … 😀

  111. The Rough Bounds says:

    That horrible picture of Ruth Harrison Davidson sitting astride the barrel of that tank gun.

    Is that some kind of ‘penis envy’? It might explain a lot.

  112. Ken500 says:

    Shell (Oil) have lost out since 2008. The Banking crash causing a world recession. They have used up theirs assets and stock pile to survive. They are selling of their assets to survive to reinvest. Osbourne was keeping Oil tax too high when prices had fallen. Lost more production to keeping going and business ticking over. They are now selling assets worldwide to get finance to reinvest. BP is the worse company in economic history.

    Now the Oil price is rising. Scotland can use the Oil revenues (worldwide) to reinvest in renewables and the economy. The best geographical positioned country in the world for renewables. CCS and connectivity could bring in more revenues from Europe. Oil tax is 40% since Jan 2016. When the Oil industry is wound down it takes years. Then have rewind back up. Like a giant furnace. That is why it is better to keep production solid and steady. Until an alternative can be found and introduced. Happening now worldwide. Countries are racing for renewable power and abandoning nuclear/oil etc. Even plastics.

    Like M & S sold off stores and rent them back to survive when trading and profits were falling to survive and reinvest but losing the real estate assets which could be re embellished when trading factors improved. Bought back when favourable trading conditions and profits returned.

  113. The Rough Bounds says:

    That horrible picture of Ruth Harrison Davidson sitting astride the barrel of that tank gun.

    Is that her showing some kind of ‘penis envy’? It might explain a lot.

  114. Ruby says:

    BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
    2 February, 2017 at 9:51 am
    Bernard Ponsonby of STV has to hunt down and nail Defense Secretary Micheal Fallon today.

    Ruby replies

    https://tinyurl.com/hhy67pe

    I loved the close ups of the shipyard workers wearing their earplugs during Michael Fallons speech. FF to 0.29/30

  115. DerekM says:

    What you mean the tories threatening to boycott a democratic vote or block it or rig it or steal something nah never heard of them doing that before Richard.

  116. Iain says:

    Fallon has an interesting background for a BritNat Tory.

    It evidently comes from his father, who was an Irish surgeon from Limerick, the son of a constable in the Royal Irish Constabulary. This provoked ostracism as a youth, and again later when he returned to Dublin after serving in the RAMC during WW2, being awarded an OBE. His obituary in the British Medical Journal tells of the ostracism “fostering his lonely pride”; it evidently provoked a rejection of his Irish identity.

    Hence his move to Perthshire, and the choice of a select independent BritNat education for young Michael.

  117. mike cassidy says:

    Ian Brotherhood 11.07

    If we presume those figures also represent roughly a yes/no vote for actual independence – and they probably do –

    then they tie in with my 10.30 link.

    http://archive.is/6cimX

  118. Dr Jim says:

    @Doug
    The SNP will be in power for as long as they want, why on earth would they disband
    Where do these strange ideas come from, who are you going to vote for? Incompetent Labour? Dictatorial Tory? The Comrade Greens? Lib Mentals? or some new invented party untested and untried in a new free Independent Scotland exactly when we need the folk who know what they’re doing to keep doing it

    The media attitude to Trump:

    He’s only saying that, he wont really do it, Oh! he did it! Yeah, but he wont do the next crazy thing, Oh! he did that too! Surely he didn’t meant to say that! Oh! he did!

    Trump is a maniacal child with a loaded country on a sugar hit who’s having a tantrum in the world supermarket
    and his Ma’s no there to slap him and the staff are too feart tae dae anything in case they make it worse

    It can’t be just me who thinks this Guy is the most dangerous lunatic on the planet next to Lex Luthor

  119. Alexander Morrison says:

    Michael Fallon doesn’t know what is happening in Scotland like Theresa May because their getting all there information from Ruth Davidson and David Mundell and what do they know!!!!

  120. mike cassidy says:

    Ian Brotherhood 11.07

    Archive link to the Edinburgh News article.

    http://archive.is/8nDDa

  121. Puzzled Puss says:

    On balance I think it’s unlikely that the UK Government will attempt to block Indyref2. However, they are not rational, and it follows from that that they are quite unpredictable.

    If they did block Indyref2, I should think it would be appropriate to dissolve the Treaty of Union. I also think it might be more helpful to refer to the process as ‘dissolving the Treaty of Union’, rather than UDI, which for many people carries rather negative connotations.

  122. DerekM says:

    @ Dr Jim

    Except maybe Clinton but i have not worked out if she is in the loony or psycho category,some choice a big loony mason or a nazi Illuminati.

    I think if i was American i would be heading for Canada lol

  123. Nana says:

    For anyone who missed Fallon’s interview this morn,

    at 2hrs 10mins

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b0890l6r

  124. Harry Shanks says:

    Rough Bounds 11.20

    I tweeted the very same joke some months ago and was immediately accused of being a homophobic mysogynist and blocked by Ruth the Mooth and set upon by a hoarde of her supporters – so mind what you say LOL

  125. One_Scot says:

    Online polls, I’m not sure they are no more than clickbait. And let’s face it, it’s not as if they cannot be manipulated.

  126. Richard MacKinnon says:

    DerekM

    2 February, 2017 at 11:24 am

    I could be wrong but I don’t think they will try and block it or rig it, for that means they are acknowledging it by engaging in the debate, and taking part. If Sturgeon goes ahead and holds a second referendum as she is constantly threatening with out Westminster consent I think the Tories will mock it. They will say it is not legitimate, they will say, with justification, Scotland chose to stay in the union in 2014. They will say you cannot keep holding referendums.
    Nicola Sturgeon knows this, I’m surprise you don’t. You should be a bit more honest with yourself DerekM, it might help you see the bigger picture.

  127. Capella says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood
    Currently YES 51% NO 49%
    You need the full link to be able to vote:
    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-slams-tory-bid-to-block-indyref2-plans-1-4355843

  128. galamcennalath says:

    Iain says:

    Fallon has an interesting background for a BritNat Tory.

    That’s interesting. A fair number of pro-UK, mainly Anglican, Irish left because they no longer fitted in. Sounds like Fallon’s father was typical of this group.

    Effectively he would be a political refugee from Ireland.

    Young Michael was given an English style education despite being born in Scotland.

    He will be basically ‘identity-less’, like so many who clutch at Britishness.

    In iScotland it is to be hoped everyone finds a place and does fit in. However, that may be too much to expect and I am sure some will try to cling on to Britishness and move away.

  129. D.Loudon (silverfox) says:

    Hi,

    This is probably off-topic but I have found a reference to “our Parliament extinguished” in the Convention of Royal Burghs Petition against the Treaty of Union, dated 1706.

  130. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Mike C –

    Mea culpa…sorry for not archiving…have never gotten the hang of it…sad, but true.

    🙁

  131. Desimond says:

    The talk of calling Ruth Davidson Indy after the Harrison gag, lest we forget Indys real name is Henry… which made me picture Ruthie as a wee Henry the Hoover .. well she does love her external money making activities after all!

  132. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Breeks

    @ 2 February, 2017 at 11:15 am

    David Cameron signed The Edinburgh Agreement which stated they would abide by the result. They did not hold it in contempt. It is a lot easier to make the case that it is the nationalists that are contemptuous of the 2014 result with these constant threats of a second referendum.
    The English went along with our referendum. They couldn’t understand why we wanted one, they didn’t want us to break the union but they accepted Scotland’s right to call one. I can detect their patience is running out and I can understand why.

  133. robertknight says:

    Richard

    See my post at 8:43.

    Furthermore, we don’t need anyone to “go along” with anything.

    If the people of England want to end the Union, they too are perfectly entitled to have a referendum of their own.

  134. David Arnott says:

    Well, thats it then.

    As much as I disagree with Sturgeon its now time to step up.

    I cannot call myself a Scotsman and stand for this S**t.

  135. DerekM says:

    Its now 53% yes 47% no

  136. TorrENS not TorrANCE says:

    Not directly relevant to this but I heard an interesting exchange on the Today programme this morning:

    Nick Robinson: Now what’s going to happen to oil prices, Dominic O’Connell talks to a man who knows.
    That man was Ben van Beurden, CEO of Royal Dutch Shell.

    BVB: We don’t go into forecasting oil prices, we found that we’re not particularly good at it actually.

    (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08cbp9p#play about 2:42:36 mins in)

    So there you have it. BBC asks an expert to forecast and he tells them we cannot. Keep that in mind the next time they tell you of a predicted fall in price.

  137. Luigi says:

    Folks,

    WM is not going to prevent IndyRef 2. Even they are not that stupid. This is all smoke and mirrors. What Fallon said today was the usual line – there was no categorical refusal to sanction it, only yet another strong hint that they would stop it. A hint yes, a threat, perhaps, but a promise? Definitely not.

    They are bluffing.

  138. Meg merrilees says:

    dakk @9.48

    Mundell, Fallon, Gove, Liam Fox, all ("Tractor" - Ed)s.Betraying Scotland.

  139. Golfnut says:

    Double standards Richard McKinnon, a consultative referendum is taking us out of Europe.
    I think your a bit backside foremost with your thoughts on the English being patient, our country and people have been mocked, slandered, slighted and abused, it is we who have been patient.

  140. Swami Backverandah says:

    Michal Fallon mis-fires again.

  141. DerekM says:

    lol this idiot thinks he can promote that the tories have a plan,yes they have a plan and it is not to get their silly little party left holding the massive brexit dogshit we sent them in the post.

    They are doing terribly badly old chap.

    As for the plan in telling us Scots to shut up and do as we are told that is just masterful a stroke of genius.

  142. Luigi says:

    Here we go again. Remember 2011-2012, when the yoons were screaming there would be no referendum, that David Cameron would not allow it blah blah blah? Well, how did that turn out?

    Mr Cameron came up to meekly sign the Edinburgh agreement, with the MSM desperately leaning heavily on how a second question (which no one wanted) had been denied as a wee face-saver for WM. To oppose a mandated, Holyrood call for IndyRef 2 would be a gift to the SNP and PM May knows this. Unfortunately for her, Nicola Sturgeon is in no mood to offer her any face-saver.

    Who said 2017 was going to be boring?

  143. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Richard MacKinnon

    FFS man – Cameron’s idea of “respecting the result” in 2014 was to, within hours of the result being announced, bring in EVEL. The message to Scotland there was: “We won, we own you – eat your cereal”.

    The SNP/Scottish Government has, however disappointed they were with that outcome, respected the 2014 result.

    Since then they have made it clear, only a considerable change in circumstances would trigger a second Independence referendum.

    We were told by the Tory-backed ‘Better Together’ campaign in 2014: “Only by voting ‘No’ could Scotland guarantee continued membership of the EU.

    In the 2015 General Election, the Tories ran on a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on EU membership. That GE saw Tory support in Scotland fall to an all-time low, leaving them with a single Scottish MP – clearly Scotland was unimpressed by them and their manifesto.

    But, on the back of an English majority, the Tories got to form the post-2016 GE Westminster government, quickly calling that EU in/out referendum. Scotland voted by a 62 to 38% majority to remain within the EU.

    But, again on the back of an English majority, the Tory government is now dragging Scotland out of the EU, along the way totally ignoring the wishes of the Scottish eletorate.

    If these are not significant changes in circumstances – what are?

    The Scottish Government has consistently held to its postion. First Minister Sturgeon has made repeated efforts to find a means of persuading the Tory government in Westminster to acknowledge the consistently-stated position of the people of Scotland to remain within the EU.

    The Tory government at Westminster has repeatedly ignored pledges made to the people of Scotland – not least “The Vow” made in the run-up to the 2014 Referendum.

    Now, a senior Tory Cabinet Minister is threatening that his party will not allow a second Indyref.

    The English may be running out of patience with the SNP/Scottish Government. They ought to remember, Scots are slow to anger, but, when their safety valve blows – look out.

    Ever since the SNP reached a position whereby it was a meaningful player in Scottish politics, thereby smashing the age-old consensus of Unionism, the response to Westminster has been promise them anything, procrastinate, divert – even at times, tell the “Sweaties” outright lies.

    Scotland is finally wakening-up to this approach. When the Union shatters, and shatter it will – it will be the fault of the Tories.

  144. Scott Shaw says:

    For a Defence Minister Michael Fallon sure fires a lot of blanks.

  145. Ken500 says:

    Scotland has been taxed at a higher rate than the rest of the UK by Westminster, since 1928 and before. Osbourne high taxes on the Oil sector when prices had fallen cost £Billions in Scotland and thousands of jobs. Unequal taxes consistently. Thatcher illegally and secretly took the equivalent of £Billions of resources out of Scotland. ‘This must be kept secret’, written by Thatcher on the Gov documents. One of her Ministers resigned. Forsyth and Lang kept the secret. Labour buried the McCrone Report. Fifty years of Labour. Illegal wars, banking fraud and banking fraud. The Gov debt ever increasing,

    The North/South divide. People in Scotland had to migrate to survive. Westminster centralist and unequal economic policies depopulated Scotland. The UK is one of the most unequal countries in the world. Thatcher. Care in the community = Prison. Scotland had only prospered better since Devolution increased the depleted population. The Barnett Formula ensures Scotland does not have the means to have control over the Scottish economy. Raising the revenues and controlling the spending and the debt.

    The Police could manage their budget if they stopped putting people in cells on mild misdemeanours. On charges that can never come to court. They arrest and then investigate on malicious complaint or provocation, Instead of investigating and the arresting. Or giving a warning as they used to do before Unionist council political bias influence Police action. Not investigating Unionist politician criminal offences. Protecting Paedophile offences. Gerrymandering and electoral fraud and criminal activities.

    The terraces are empty. The football authorities letting paedophiles run the Clubs. Protected and not investigated. Criminal activities by the Clubs affecting the ‘game’. Illegally activities. Minimum pricing will reduce criminal activity. Most crime is committed while under the influence of drink or drugs. 10% of drivers aged 18 – 24 cause 25% of accidents. Causing more accidents and costing lives. Increasing pressure on the NHS.

    In the US people have to be 21 before they can legally drink or drive. Illegal to drive while under the influence of drink or drugs. In 31States parents can allow their children to drink (at home) but it is illegal to buy or administrate alcohol to other people’s children.

    Scotland raises £54Billion+. The rest of the UK raises (pro rata) £42Billion. Westminster borrows and spends £100Billion more in the rest of the UK and Scotland has to pay on average £4Billion a year on loan repayments not borrowed or spent in Scotland.

    Davidson and the Tories are complete warmongering liars.

    Companies relocated to countries which have good education and health systems.

    There could be more money spent on mental health services and less need for treatment. If Unionists stopped spending resources on non mandated grotesque projects and wasteful projects. Illegal wars, bombing the Middle East to bits. Destroying city centres and health services. Wasting £Trns of public money. Supporting Trident and sanctioning and starving the vulnerable and cutting public services. The councils mismanage their allocated budgets. Wasting £Billions. Against the majority and the public interest. They are like crazy birds. Beaks every open demanding more and more to waste and grow obscenely obese and over bloated.

  146. heedtracker says:

    Golfnut says:
    2 February, 2017 at 12:43 pm
    Double standards Richard McKinnon, a consultative referendum is taking us out of Europe.
    I think your a bit backside foremost with your thoughts on the English being patient, our country and people have been mocked, slandered, slighted and abused, it is we who have been patient.

    Patient with whom or what Golfnut? Democracy, freedom of speech maybe.

  147. Desimond says:

    I asked this the other week…IF, and I know its a big hypothetical IF, Westminster were to say “NO” to acknowledging any IndyRef2 ( and I think they are conceited enough to seriously think they could get away with that tbh in this day and age) what could Scotland Parliament actually do about it?

    Have a referendum that Westminster wont recognise and then we are left to enter the legal minefield to seek recognition with UK Supreme Court? Only the lawyers will win there and the people will get dejected.

    Once Brexit is confirmed, the next target for Westminster to take back more control is going to be culling the Devolved Governments. Westminster have the ultimate control so a quick vote to remove Holyrood powers wouldn’t be beyond them surely?

  148. Proud Cybernat says:

    Hey MacKinnon – we reserve the right to change our minds.

  149. Richard MacKinnon says:

    robertknight

    @ 2 February, 2017 at 12:07 pm

    You say,
    “Furthermore, we don’t need anyone to “go along” with anything.”
    That is the point I am trying to make. You do. If Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP want to hold another referendum they need Westminster to agree to it. That is the law. It is a reserved power. For Sturgeon to go it alone and call one without Westminster agreement the result will not be legally binding. She has threatened a second vote for too long now and if her hand is forced and she has to hold one, the result will be irrelevant as the turn out will be an embarrassment. Why? because the unionists will not take part. Sturgeon is in a terrible position, not of her making.
    Your earlier post about what was promised in the run up to 2014 is all water under the bridge now, both sides made rash and desperate promises they knew they could never keep. The facts are in 2014 Scotland voted No and in 2016 the UK voted Leave. That’s the thing about history its just one thing after another.

  150. Macart says:

    @Nana

    Oh, for the love of… 76 fecking pages? Seriously?

    To take four populations out of the EU, two against their will, 76 pages?

    Worse yet. They’ll vote for it in commons, lords and commons again. Two of those populations may whoop and cheer.

    Think about this for a moment and compare it to the utterly bullshit hoops the Scottish Government were asked to jump through in our own indyref. This shower of gangsters have take eight months to produce a 76 page document after the fact of a referendum vote and they are asking you to trust them with your human rights, working rights, constitutional and economic futures.

    No, seriously! That is what they are asking.

  151. Black Joan says:

    Well that’s it. Can’t take any more of this nonsense.

    Always resisted the idea of signing up to a political party, but I’ve just joined the SNP.

    Well done, Fallon.

  152. galamcennalath says:

    @nana

    Thanks.

    I won’t read it all. However, I have searched for every occurrence of Scotland in the text. Then checked the context it was used and what it had to say.

    Most are in lists with Wales and NI.

    A couple of mentions of committing to exploring the proposals of Holyrood, but nothing of consequence relating to the actual constitutional crisis Scotland is in the midst of, IMO …. in all those pages!

  153. Nana says:

    @Macart

    Yep that’s it, but there’s a bit about ‘strengthening the union’

    Seriously Scotland let’s get rid of these criminally insane torys

  154. Socrates MacSporran says:

    THE battleground for Scotland getting out of the United Kingdom will be Westminster.

    A hypothetical situation: The Scottish Government puts an Act before Holyrood, calling for a second Independence Referendum.

    A combination of the SNP and Greens gets the Act through – the Scottish Government calls the Referendum.

    The Westminster government refuses to pass the Section 30 legislation, with only the SNP and Plaid Cymru MPs backing it.

    The Referendum goes ahead any way, and produces a majority in favour of Independence.

    Westminster refuses to accept the result.

    It is at this point that the 56 pro-Independence MPs (who knows, perhaps by then Police Scotland will have stopped dragging their feet and the two “Independent” MPs are back in the SNP tent)table a motion at Westminster terminating the Act of Union, on the grounds that England is ignoring the wishes of the Scottish people.

    Then, the Scottish Government gets the EU and the UN involved.

    We win.

  155. Macart says:

    Scotland doesn’t require a referendum to become independent. It is however the preferred method of the Scottish Government and almost certainly the Westminster Government for obvious reasons.

    “all Scotland needs to do is return a majority of SNP MP’s at a General Election if they wish Independence” Margaret Thatcher . (Caveat) They need to campaign on a manifesto pledge of independence.

    In short, all that is required, is a specific mandate on a specific pledge or question. Once the mandate of the people is given, it will be entirely legal and acted upon.

    So Ms May can take her chances early in a referendum and hope that the vote is still low enough in Scotland to manipulate, or she can expose the population to a few more years of austerity given a steroid boost of brexit and hope the numbers don’t grow a bit.

    Remember… many roads to independence and all that is required is specific mandate.

    But it may not come to that yet. Ms May still has a few weeks in which to consider the Scottish Government’s compromise proposal. 😉

  156. Dr Jim says:

    If the Trumper May Tory government issued a decree that they were going to do away with all Scottish Independence supporters the Yoons would still be stupidly cheering them on to do it not realising they could be next in line because of the need to get rid of Zoomers as well and then folk with big noses or dark skin or…Whoops have I gone too far?

    Yoon mentality, on yer knees and shoot me, do what thou wilt Treeza
    Shower of thick dunces can’t see the wood for the orange skin

  157. Brian Powell says:

    A massive chunk of the No vote comes from the Tories.

    When there is a GE there is a certain amount of uncertainty about the result: there may be a Tory Gov or Lab or Coalition. The result is one of no choice for the voters, you get what you get.

    With the Independence Ref those in Labour No vote are actively and knowingly leaving Scotland in the hands of the Tories. Since 2014, Tories, then with boundary changes Tories, even though we never vote Tory Gov in Scotland.

    FM Sturgeon was right, it is either Independence to determine our future and whatever Gov makeup we decide or it is a UK Tory future.

    If Scottish Labour voters go for No they will have clearly decided on a Tory future.

  158. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood Comoan noo Mr if ah muppet like me kin Archive.is U should be able tae dey it lol.

  159. Habib Steele says:

    I think that Breeks’s argument that we ourselves deny our own sovereignty by kowtowing to Westminster decisions that are against the will of the Scottish people.

    I read a while ago that we don’t need another referendum. Instead, all Scottish Sovereigntist MPs resign. by-elections be held in every one of their constituencies, the Sovereigntist manifestos be a single point – that Scotland should be an independent country, that if a sovereigntist majority is elected they eschew the Westminster parliament, meet in Edinburgh as the Parliament elected by the Sovereign Scottish people, call the Holyrood Parliament to join and sit with them, and declare ourselves to be an independent country.

    Would that do the job?

  160. galamcennalath says:

    A Tory council leaflet came through our door. My attention went straight to a statement by Davidson …

    Despite promising it would be a “once in a generation” decision, it didn’t take long for the SNP to start campaigning for a second referendum on independence.

    So the Council elections in May will be an important opportunity for you to tell the SNP – we voted No to independence, so respect the result and don’t put us through it all again.

    It’s vital there are strong voices across Scotland prepared to stand up against them and their decisive plans.

    We said No to independence. Use your vote for the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party to tell the SNP we meant it. Ruth Davidson MSP

    … what a dreadfully twisted presentation of the situation her party has plunged Scotland into!

  161. Les Wilson says:

    They will allow Indy2 at the end of the day, partially because the will think they have everything in hand, to deviously cheat us.
    They will sweat but will be confident in their MI5/MI6 operatives in Scotland. Ruth Davidson has an ex UK spy working with her, I do not think for the good of his health.

    They will have plans to cheat on postal votes (again) they will infiltrate and cause division. They will have false flags arranged.
    They will lie and cheat in cahoots with the compliant Yoon media.

    Many of these people will be walking among us right now, because they knew it would come.

    They only way to defeat all their plans is big turnout with big numbers voting yes. It will need to be more than they expect so it upsets their plans. So we need to keep talking to anyone who will listen, all our groups need involved and lay differences aside for our greater good.

    After we win,there will be plenty time to discuss the way we want to go forward in a democratic way.

  162. Nana says:

    DExEU Minster Lord Bridges confirms the government won’t be publishing impact assessments for objectives in the Brexit white paper

    Baroness Hayter voices ‘serious concerns’

    Well you’re not alone there Mrs

  163. Artyhetty says:

    Posted this on Scotgoespop today. My thoughts on this threat from Fallon and the total lack of respect shown towards Scotland from WM unionists. They have nothing but contempt for Scotland, and people who still cling to their dysfunctional union need to see that and soon.

    There could be no more proof that Scotland is an occupied territory than what has happened with brexshit, and since the english voted to remove all so called UK subjects, (citizens in Scotland) from the EU. Democracy is certainy without doubt, dead in the yookay as it stands at the moment.

    A backward, destructive, mean, nasty, fascist little britain, the Trumps whipping boy. How very 21st century, not!

    Scotland has been shown zilch respect by WM, the tories, and red tories yet they expect ‘respect” for their lies and manipulation, for their bullying and their contempt towards us. I don’t bloody think so. Scotland will actually die as a country if we don’t get out of their bastard union, nevermind democracy. At present we have the SNP, only the SNP standing up and working for Scotland’s people. If sending 56 SNP MPs to WM wasn’t a mandate for which direction Scotland needs and want to go in, I don’t know what is.

    England needs to stand on his own 2 feet, and respect those who choose to take a positive, life affirming path, go their own way, amicably.

  164. Robert Peffers says:

    @Noel Darlow says: 2 February, 2017 at 2:02 am:

    “Fallon has defined a mandate as a majority at Holyrood.”

    Great comment, Noel, There is of course a difference between having a majority and having a mandate and it is not complicated in any way.

    If a party, or coalition of parties, gets a majority of the vote that does indeed constitute a mandate but the mandate is only to form the government and nothing else.

    If they both had a promise in their manifesto to become an independent state then that government is also mandated to seek independence but that does not apply to things they disagree about. A mandate is permission to do something you promised.

    Fallon may sound like he is well educated but is obviously quite deficient in his comprehension of the English Language. A majority does not a mandate make.

    The SNP are the Scottish Government because they did indeed get a majority of the vote.

    What they did NOT get is an overall majority over the combination of all other parties IF those other parties were to act together.

    Put it another way – a majority is getting the biggest share of the vote and it could be quite a small overall share of the vote if there were lots of parties seeking election.

    A mandate is getting a majority on a promise of a certain action. Fallon, as usual is talking tripe.

    ” … when the SNP & SGP vote together in favour of a second referendum, Holyrood will have a mandate”.

    Indeed but only because both parties promised such a thing in their manifesto.

  165. Wullie B says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38839103

    Maggie May saying the issue was sorted in 2014, if that is case why are they running scared

  166. Robert Peffers says:

    @Arbroath1320 says: 2 February, 2017 at 5:27 am:

    “Come on Fallon ya coward, always hiding behind wee girls for protection from “nasty” journalists.”

    Wee lassie in stature, Arbroath1320, but she had balls a great deal larger than Fallon has ever had in his life.

    That wee wummin was a right hard faced wee terror and looked like she could hold her own in a Wrestling tag team Wi Big Daddy and his team any day.

    Quite frankly I would think twice about opposing yon wee virago.

  167. galamcennalath says:

    Wullie B says:

    Maggie May saying the issue was sorted in 2014

    In some ways it was. However, that lasted about half a day until Cameron began to unravel his victory with an announcement of EVEL. Then homeopathic Smith which bore no relation to the winning promises. Then our MPs being ignored. Then Brexit, a further breach of 2014 promises. Then the failure to listen to Scotland.

    Maggie May should realise we are now a long long way from 2014 thanks to her own party.

  168. Bob MACK says:

    Some of the answers lie in the White Paper today. Scotlands fishing grounds are up for negotiation with Europe. There will no doubt be more

  169. keaton says:

    Chick McGregor says:

    Mandate?

    For the 2015 GE the ratio of mandates for the SNP/Tory governments was as follows.

    By %age of popular vote 1.36
    By %age of seats won 1.83

    Party Leader mandate 100%/0% i.e. infinity.

    Hm, how do you figure the party leader mandate? Unlike Cameron, Sturgeon was elected unopposed.

  170. Breeks says:

    Richard MacKinnon says:
    2 February, 2017 at 12:00 pm
    Breeks

    @ 2 February, 2017 at 11:15 am

    David Cameron signed The Edinburgh Agreement which stated they would abide by the result. They did not hold it in contempt. It is a lot easier to make the case that it is the nationalists that are contemptuous of the 2014 result with these constant threats of a second referendum….

    You misunderstand me Richard, it is I who hold the 2014 result in contempt. The SNP can speak for themselves. The result was unfairly and improperly secured, and thus stands for nothing. I was calling for a plebiscite within hours of the result being announced, such was my anger at being cheated by the deluge of propaganda, cynical manipulation of the narrative, and flagrant disregard for Purdah. If the decision had been mine to make, I would have declared the result materially compromised and thus rendered void.

    I am delighted that Westminster is now seeking to obstruct a new referendum. Can we assume from that, the next referendum will NOT now be administered by the UKs Electoral Commission, and regulation of broadcasting will be handed by someone properly neutral and professional. Does Guy Verhofstadt work weekends I wonder…

    I am delighted the next referendum will from start to finish be a matter of internal domestic enquiry for Scotland, with Scotland paying the piper and naturally calling the tune. Game on….

  171. Proud Cybernat says:

    Dear Maggie May,

    2014 is a different country. They did things differently there. The people of Scotland reserve our absolute right to change our minds as and when it suits us. Furthermore, the people of Scotland will decide when the independence question has been settled, NOT Downing Street.

  172. Quakeawake says:

    @Les Wilson 1.43pm I sincerely believe you are correct in every detail of that post.

    In addition to your high turn out solution, we must have effective, outside arbitration. And we must shout from the rooftops that we do not have faith in the postal ballot system and keep the spotlight on it from the very start.

    There were over 700k postal ballots in 2014. No won the ref by under 400k.

  173. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    I am delighted the next referendum will from start to finish be a matter of internal domestic enquiry for Scotland, with Scotland paying the piper and naturally calling the tune.

    It should be, perhaps with some international oversight from the EU.

    I think WM should butt out. They won’t, but I see nothing wrong with simply not engaging with them. It should be none of their business and be a matter for Scots.

    When someone at WM makes a comment it should be greeted with, “No one asked for your opinion. Mind your own business.”.

    They ignore us when it suits them. We should ignore them in return when they do ‘grace us with their wisdom’.

  174. mike d says:

    Habib steele 1.36pm. Agreed the way to go, because a second indy ref will be rigged same as the first,with these lying cheating unionist barstewards using every devious means at their disposal.

  175. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sandra says: 2 February, 2017 at 7:16 am:

    “Is Fallon the thickest member of the government? I know there’s a lot of competition but he makes Boris look like a genius.”

    He makes everyone in creation look like they are geniuses.
    Note: Correct Plural. No arguments please.

  176. louis.b.argyll says:

    If we don’t set terms for ref2 before actual EU exit.
    ..then our far-right UKIP fearing government will CHEAT THE RESULT.

    The future’s far right.
    The future’s Orange.

  177. Les Wilson says:

    My estimation of Stephen Gethins has gone up a long way,his performance in Westminster debates has been excellent. Speaks with an authority and knowledge of the facts, and he is not feart to dish it out.

    However,I am in general, very proud of all our people down there in the eye of the storm. They have all performed very well indeed.

    We need to did our heels in and disrupt the whole shambolic place.

  178. Macart says:

    Just had a look on Wings twitter…

    It appears Ms Dugdale is trying to out do Ms Davidson on the over egged drama front.

    Just WOW! 🙄

  179. Desimond says:

    Talk of getting EU in to help with a referendum, would never happen. Its us vs Westminster, and the rest of Europe will watch for any developments.

    If we declare Independence without Westminster saying OK, would we be entering Kosovo recognition territory?

    (from Google)

    The EU is divided on their policy towards Kosovo, with 5 of 28 EU member states (Cyprus, Greece, Romania, Slovakia, Spain) not recognising their sovereignty. … The Republic of Kosovo’s declaration of independence from Serbia was enacted on 17 February 2008 by a vote of members of the Assembly of Kosovo.

  180. Les Wilson says:

    Quakeawake says:

    Yes, we need International observers in Indy2, as well as, banning buses of English students and others coming up here and campaigning for no.
    Postal votes need guarded,on uplift from voting stations, all the way to the count. The count itself needs monitored.
    NO postal votes to be sent first to England (this happened in Indy1)

    No purdah laws can be broken this time on threat of court proceedings against offenders no matter who they are. The body looking after this is useless, and can only be Westminster biased or the would have been held to account the last time.

    Oh there are plenty more issues.

  181. carjamtic says:

    Indyref2 will happen, the result of Indyref1 is tainted (for all the reasons, that have been highlighted on WoS and in other places).

    Natural justice should be allowed run it’s course, if it was a court of law, perhaps double jeopardy could be introduced.

    But it purely political,in the interests of fairness/democracy,Indyref2 should go ahead, Scotland cannot be shackled to an undemocratic system forever,dinnae anybody go on the defensive,we have done nothing wrong.

    #TaintedTories

  182. ronnie anderson says:

    Wee note tae Murdo Fraser am no oan that Laughter Curve am HOWLIN WIE LAUGHTER

  183. Arbroath1320 says:

    If this is Fallon the Fabulous’s idea of keeping us uppity Scots in our place then can I suggest we respond in kind? 😉

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/02/tories-tread-dangerous-path/

    I know Craig is not everyone’s cup of tea but as a former British Ambassador I think he should know something about how countries go about their acquisition of independence.

    The important point he makes is in the third last paragraph.

    My preferred method of doing this would be to convene a National Assembly, comprising of all Scotland’s MEP’s, MP’s and MSP’s, and for that National Assembly to make the declaration.

    In fairness he does go on to state that his preference would be for a referendum now as a result of the UK leaving the EU. However, I don’t think the possibility of calling a Scottish National Convention should be ignored completely out of hand.

    Fetching hat and coat! 😀

  184. Dan Huil says:

    Britnats say they love the union between Scotland and England yet continue to do the most damage to their so-called united kingdom. Hilarious.

    It will be interesting to see how the independence vote in Catalonia goes later this year.

  185. Macart says:

    @ronnie anderson

    Seems the usual suspects are having a bit of a baby and bathwater moment over the budget.

    Aye, all those carefully laid schemes to bring down the SG gone south in a bad way and just when Fallon had given their leader Rex Harrison such big thumbs up. 😀 LOL

    Murdo going into complete meltdown.

  186. DerekM says:

    Is there a doctor in the house some gibbering lunatic has invaded the Scottish Parliament,oh wait it just Murdo giving us advice on sandals,vegetables and fruit.

  187. Nana says:

    plans underway to nationalise all Scottish ferry services

    https://twitter.com/BraidenHT/status/827176802762137600

  188. davidb says:

    But politically it is in their interest to permit the second vote – not that I accept its in their gift.

    If the Scots vote to leave the Tories will be in power in England for effectively ever. If the Scots vote to stay then we all know its over for us. Win Win for them.

    Brexit is absolutely not in the UK’s economic interest. Scotland leaving is not in England’s economic interest. But politics trumps economics.

  189. vlad (not that one) says:

    @Desimond at 3:11 pm says:

    If we declare Independence without Westminster saying OK, would we be entering Kosovo recognition territory?

    I hope not. Wouldn’t Scotland in effect just be repealing Scotland’s own original Act of Union?

    Kosovo is quite a bit different. (However I am not suggesting that Kosovars have no right to independence.)

  190. Desimond says:

    @vlad

    Indeed.
    Its the fear of manipulation that has me wondering about this. I can see Westminster putting up every possible barrier, procedural, political and legal to avoid another unquestionable referendum.

    Its these days of Obfuscation, nothing can be assumed as “BUT THEY MUST!”

  191. Desimond says:

    @vlad

    re: Wouldn’t Scotland in effect just be repealing Scotland’s own original Act of Union?

    Well we would say Yes BUT that raises the Mundell Question straight away, wasn’t Scotland consumed into England and therefore don’t have any of their own laws to repeal anymore.

    And thus the legal minefield games that Westminster would love to make us play begin etc

  192. ScottishPsyche says:

    With Tories like Michael Fallon and Murdo Fraser we get an insight into what they privately think of Scotland and its place in the UK although they seem to no longer be even trying to hide it. I agree Fallon is quite dim and saw him referred to as ‘Minister for Boats’ earlier today.

    Murdo Fraser is however dangerously stupid and quite vicious in his personal attacks. He taps into that deep vein of Yoon entitlement and its loyalist support system, constantly stirring and goading. He had nothing constructive to say with regards to the budget and it seems his rhetoric that is starting to dominate the Tories in Scotland.

    Ruth Harrison may have won the leadership with her charade of nice Toryism but from what we have heard recently it seems she and Murdo are completely on the same page.

  193. Dan Huil says:

    “I’m at the age where I’ve got to prove that I’m just as good as I never was”. Rex Harrison

  194. Proud Cybernat says:

    And if the Yoons break the rules in IR2 in the same way they broke them in IR1 and if the BBC (Big Brother Channel) continues to act in a biased way, if promises are made during purdah (and broken) then Downing Street can be absolutely certain that INDYREF3 will be along in short order.

    If the Yoons want an end to Neverendum then they can bring that about by playing fair in IR2–it’s up to them. Act unfairly and they can be certain that around we will all go again. Of that there is no doubt.

    S’up to you, Yoons.

  195. Luigi says:

    Macart says:

    2 February, 2017 at 1:27 pm

    Scotland doesn’t require a referendum to become independent. It is however the preferred method of the Scottish Government and almost certainly the Westminster Government for obvious reasons.

    Indeed. Was it not Alex Salmond who said there are many ways to skin a cat? The referendum is like the Scottish government’s offer to compromise on BREXIT. Another blinder. We play fair, we be nice and we give them a chance to respond in a civilised, democratic manner. And when they don’t, when they spit in our faces, all hell breaks loose (can’t say we didn’t warn them).

    Independence will come when the people are ready for it. And that is the key, the only critical issue actually. We have to take the majority of the people with us. We are no there yet, but I tell you what, friends, we are getting close. And that is why the yoons are already in such a tizzy. We haven’t even started the next campaign yet. 🙂

  196. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 2 February, 2017 at 7:29 am:

    “I wish I could say I shared everybody’s confidence.”

    Don’t blame us for that, Breeks. It is your very own lack of confidence.

    “The Unionists assert that Scotland was extinguished and ceased to exist beyond the act of Union. They act in all things as if this is an accepted reality and conventional reality.”

    Indeed they do but they also claimed that Saddam had WMD and no one has found them yet. Anyway, just who is accepting it as reality? The Westminster Establishment get away with it only because of the Scottish, “Buts”, the modern, “Paircel o Rogues”, and because no one has really officially questioned it – until now.

    ” … They maintain the line that Westminster wields a singular parliamentary sovereignty”

    Yet they have offered no evidence that they do. I knew a guy once who claimed, (I kid you not), that he was the risen Christ. I asked him once, (before they came to take him away), what his evidence was and did he have a birth certificate, (To be fair I thought he was just having us on).

    His reply was just as astonishing as that of the Westminster Establishment, it was, “I am the risen again Christ and if I say I am then I am”.

    ” … and created a Supreme Court which tries, but doesn’t altogether succeed in doing to Scottish law what Westminster has been doing to Scottish sovereignty for centuries.”

    Aye! Breeks but they also created a UK National Debt of over £3 Trillion but factoring in such liabilities as state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is over £4.8 trillion.

    So let’s be sane about this. They do not have any actual written evidence to back up their claims while we Scots have in spades. First of all the union that was formed was by a Treaty of Union and, believe it or not, a treaty is a legally binding document according to the laws of all parties and guess what?

    The treaty itself stipulates that The law of Scotland and the law of England are independent of each other in perpetuity. Not only that but there is nothing in the Treaty that says Scotland was, “Extinguished”, and even if there had been it is logical that as the resultant was NOT called The Kingdom of England but called The United Kingdom then so was the Kingdom of England extinguish.

    Neither does the Treaty say that The United Kingdom is Sovereign and under actual English law no sovereign can give away the sovereignty of the kingdom because it belongs to the Kingdom and not to the Monarchy. Scots Law also stipulates that the monarchy does not own the sovereignty but goes further as it claims the people are sovereign.

    There simply is no law that says the United Kingdom is sovereign over either Scotland or England.

    Because we say so is not the law. Furthermore, the SC cannot be legal either as there really is no such thing as United Kingdom Law. We have people like Rock who claim that the UK is sovereign because they say so and it is accepted because it is being accepted by custom and practice. This is utter bollox.

    The real truth is that a state is only accepted as legally sovereign if the United Nations member states agree that it is and there are examples of very long running disputes on those lines.

    Palestine is not accepted internationally as being a sovereign country for no other reason than Israel is being backed by mainly the USA and the UK. Now here’s the thing- at present there is much anger building World Wide against both the USA & the UK since Trump and May became best buddies. Many states are now openly hostile to them that not so long ago would not open their mouths.

    If the EU comes down on Scotland’s side then there may well be a realignment of World powers. A reallignment that is looking very much like happening anyway.

  197. Forget the 76 pages. The key phrase is that HMG will ‘seek to reach consensus where possible.’
    The phrase, ‘Where possible’, like ‘normally’ in slapping down Sewell, is May’s Cabal’s licence to do what they like.
    If they kick out Red Headed Romanians, without consulting Parliament, they may merely argue that given the tight timescale to organise the trucks, it was not ‘possible’ to have a lenghty debate in Parliament about Red Heads, greying red heads, and white haired formerly red headed Romanian deportees.
    ‘Reasonable’ is another great HMG solicitor’s weasel word.
    Well, the boil is lanced. Roll up sleeves time.

  198. bugsbunny says:

    Just seen an advert for a forthcoming programme on Channel 4 that some of you might be interested in? At 7.00pm on Monday 6th February is a programme called Fake News Week. Oh, the irony. My old Granny could easily quote Matthew 7:5 to them including the BBC as well as ITV. “Thou Hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye”.

    Self serving backstabbing hypocrites and liars.

  199. orri says:

    Unionists like Mundell may gleefully point to a report that mentions a scenario where Scotland was extinguished but omit to mention that said scenario was merely introduced so as to be dismissed as irrelevant to the topic at hand. Said topic was that regardless of the other side of the question where England was also extinguished they took the stance that subsequent to a successful independence the state with Westminster as a parliament would be the natural successor to the UK if not actually the same state.

    If I remember correctly it wasn’t even Scotland being subsumed into England that was being discussed but rather its Parliament which might actually chime with the actuality of how things were run until devolution. Mundell’s problem is he doesn’t even have the brains to point that out and gleefully accepted an interpretation that said Scotland, rather than it’s government, no longer exists. Perhaps he didn’t know or it suits him to belittle his nation in that way.

    Fallon on the other hand almost went on record as admitting Holyrood had the power to call indref2 until prompted by the reporter to insist Westminster might veto it. Worth noting that the language has changed to “facilitate” which might be portrayed as withholding any assistance Holyrood might need to hold one.

  200. galamcennalath says:

    Dan Huil says:

    say they love the union between Scotland and England yet continue to do the most damage to their so-called united kingdom.

    Perhaps it’s because there is a difference between what they say and what they actually believe. Let’s face it, they have form!

    They talk of a Union, a partnership of equals, nations being better together, broad shoulders. The speak of a Kingdom United for mutual benefit. Noble words, if you are gullible enough to believe them.

    What we see in practice reveals what they actually think! Truth is, they see a rebellious region of Greater England which needs to keep quiet and eat its cereal.

    More and more Scots see the deeds and mistrust the words.

  201. Scott Shaw says:

    Robert Peffers (Love your posts). Is there no way to legally challenge the Westminster government on the sovereignty issue using the Act of Union with the economic damage being done to Scottish Interests by said govt over the Brexit issue?

  202. Glamaig says:

    ‘fake news’ is definitely a thing, but I think MSM are taking the opportunity to try and convince people that everything that’s not MSM is fake. I expect to hear a lot more about ‘fake news’ in Indyref2 in an attempt to discredit our own grassroots media.

  203. robertknight says:

    The certain way to have an Indy Ref 2 result stand without the need for Westmonster to OK the process would be for the Scottish Govt. to invite international observers to monitor the process then hope that over 50% of the total electorate vote Yes.

    Note that is >50% of those registered and entitled to vote. I suspect that any Catalonian referendum will be run on this basis therefore nullifying any boycott by Unionists or attempts to cry foul by the Spanish Govt.

  204. sinky says:

    Worth downloading for letters, call ins and council campaigning

    http://www.snp.org/_scotbudget_what_you_need_to_know

    Don’t rely on MSM fake news

  205. call me dave says:

    I hear that Derek Mackay and Patrick Harvie are competing for the ‘man of the moment’ at Holyrood.

    No more porridge or baffies this week … lentils & sandals it is!

    🙂

    PS:
    Thanks for the kind words yesterday everybody, I’m looking forwards to an independent Scotland again.

  206. Desimond says:

    As much as I like Roberts Peffers posts, I keep thinking of the phrase “History is written by the winners”

    In this case, England and Westminster sit in the winners seat with folk like Grima Wormtongue Mundell watering the seeds of disdain.

    I think we really need to get things underlined in triplicate and verified as no amount of “But it was a treaty” will mount to much when Westminster bears its teeth. It will be very much up to Scotland to prove that fact is what we believe it to be.

  207. There have been quitye a few countries who have become independent with no referendum. Latvia, Estonia, Slovenia to name three. What was required was that they were recognised by the UN and other states.

    The UN is well aware of Scotland and the UK. After the 1979 devolution vote that Labour scuppered with the 40% rule, 4 (I believe) ordinary SNP members went the UN and put Scotlands history and case to them. The UN investigated and passed it onto the EU. It took a few years but the UK Government had to have devolved parliaments or lose their seat on an important council.

    It wasn’t because Blair and Labour’s goodwill that we now have our parliament in Holyrood it was because they were forced into doing it.

    Yes the UN is well aware of Scotland.

  208. sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers

    Regarding Scott Shaw’s comment at 4.19

    .. he was only joking Robert. Honestly. Please Don’t respond. Don’t fall into his trap. He’s just trying to get you to write a long screed as a wind up. Dont do it Robert. Don’t fall for it.
    Please don’t.

  209. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers @3:52

    I don’t dispute a word of that Robert, but what is the mechanism that is going to bring about the end of Westminster’s view of the world as is, being ascendant over our view of the world as it should be?

    It isn’t a referendum, because the improper subjugation of Scotland’s sovereignty is a matter contrary to Scots Law, not democratic opinion, and furthermore, the majority of those who subjugate our sovereignty are not themselves subjects to that sovereignty. The English commit no treason against our sovereignty, it is the failing of us Scots that we acquiesce to Westminster’s version of reality. It is our own house we need to put in order so that we are clear about exactly what must be done.

    We are all banging the drum for a referendum, but a referendum cannot alter a legal precedent. The first order of business is not to secure a democratic mandate for Independence, it is to secure legal legitimacy of our sovereignty and have it recognised by the UN.

    Aren’t we barking up the wrong tree agitating for a referendum, when what we really need is a judicial review from the Court of Session which blows the whistle on the lack of legal competence of the Act of Union? There is no democracy required.

  210. galamcennalath says:

    Glamaig says:

    MSM are taking the opportunity to try and convince people that everything that’s not MSM is fake.

    That certainly seems to be the agenda. They are pushing the idea that traditional news sources are trustworthy and new online sources aren’t.

    It is probably actually more about control.

    The traditional MSM is controlled by a small number of people, they pander to the establishment, and have replaced journalism with plagiarism. It seems a small cosy club usually in agreement with itself.

    Alternative new media can be chaotic and act as it wishes. No one exercises any overall control.

    Fake news is everywhere, probably always was. It seems to me fake news within the controlled agenda drive traditional MSM is much more dangerous and a bigger threat to democracy.

    If anything it is the ‘true news’ of the alternative media which is undermining the ability of the traditional media to make their ‘fake news’ stick!

    They fear what they can’t control.

  211. Roboscot says:

    Robertknight says:
    ‘The certain way to have an Indy Ref 2 result stand without the need for Westmonster to OK the process would be for the Scottish Govt. to invite international observers to monitor the process then hope that over 50% of the total electorate vote Yes.’

    Robert, I think all that is needed is over 50% of the electorate voting. It doesn’t matter if some vote No. A boycott is a risky strategy for unionists. If they don’t stop enough people voting…

  212. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for May 2013 now over on O/T.

  213. Hamish100 says:

    Budget votes 67 to 59 .

    Yoonist labour, Tories and Libby’s you lost get used to it. Now get on with your job and stop talking about Indy!!

    As if they can.

  214. Doug says:

    @Dr Jim
    Why on earth would they disband you ask – because they don’t need to stick together. Many people vote SNP because they want independence – not because they believe in everything the SNP supports.

    Once independence is achieved the need for the SNP to be the SNP completely disappears. Why not a number of new parties, why should we be locked into SNP being the only choice post independence?

    After independence we will still have people who have voted Labour, Tory, Lib Dem and Green and we will also have those who naturally support those parties but have voted for the SNP in the past on a single issue for Independence. To suggest that the SNP should stay in power for as long as like as they will be the most experience sound to me like a recipe for avoiding diverse views and ignoring the minority – basically what the Torys are doing down south, this would hopefully prevent that happening.

  215. Ken500 says:

    The Unionist/Green mates getting even more taxpayers money to waste. Calling it local ‘Democracy’. Devolved decisions. Corrupt Unionists playing other Parties like a fiddle. They will take the rap st the elections May 2017. The money will just get wasted on the grotesque, carbuncle projects ruining City centres. Increasing the traffic chaos. Not support pedestrianising. Refusing a £80Million Gift to pedestrianise the City centre and tidy up the City.

    The Oocal politicians colluding with the other parties at local level to renege on green policies. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Getting into more debt. Not supporting essential services but wasting £Million of public money.

  216. mike d says:

    O/t i see the aussie pm didn’t lick trumps ar*e,unlike the excuse in westmidden.

  217. Vestas says:

    My own opinion on what would happen post-indy is :

    1) SNP are guaranteed to be in power for the first 5 years – they will most likely have a majority;

    2) SNP will probably sneak a second election but they’ll need an ally or maybe two to form a govt;

    3) 7-10 years into an indy Scotland some form of “Labour” is now rehabilitated enough to be a threat to the (establishment) SNP;

    4) By this point in time the two “wings” (new/old members) of the SNP will undoubtably be at odds with each other.

    Normal (Scottish) politics around 2028 if indy happens in 2019. Then we only have ourselves to blame for in-fighting 😀

  218. gus1940 says:

    Before we get round to Indyref2 the voting system must be sorted out in two specific areas:-

    a) Eligibility for inclusion on the Electoral Roll.
    b) Operation of the Postal Voting System.

    The weak point in 2014 was the Registration Of Voters which in turn left the Postal Voting System wide open to abuse.

    The Electoral Reform Society and our wonderful media kept telling us how wonderful it was that 97% of those eligible to vote had registered.

    It has been my opinion ever since that that to achieve that level of participation was in practice impossible.

    However, the actual turnout was in the 80s %wise which didn’t quite ring true and led to suspicions of electoral abuse.

    Subsequent to 18/9/2014 we were told that the Voter Registration system was going to be tightened up and the old system of registration by Head Of household was to be replaced by Individual Registration.

    One feature of the new system was to be the inclusion of NI Numbers on the Registration Entries which would have enabled them to be run against the files held for Tax and NI purposes which would have thrown up any discrepancies between the home address held by HMRC and that for which the Electoral Registration Application was being made.

    Such a system would catch out Holiday Home Owners and anybody else trying to Register at an address other than their address for tax purposes.

    However, I am a householder who has filled in the Annual Return for years but have never been asked to provide my NI No.

    Has the NI No System been adopted yet – if not it should be asap.

    It is essential that the system is tightened up prior to Indyref2 and that the administration of Postal Votes is strictly controlled with for each Electoral Area the no of Postal Votes declared separately from those cast at Polling Stations.

    Before anybody attacks me I support the current rules on Eligibility namely all those whose Main/Permanent address is in Scotland.

    One only has to read the Report on the results in Argyll and Bute to question what happened in 2014.

  219. Les Wilson says:

    Doug says:

    Sorry I disagree,Scotland will need a competent government after an Indy2 win, and the SNP are competent.It will be a time of structure, of set up and settling in. All normal things will also need attention at the same time. So no, SNP for the first 5 years of Indy. Who else could cope with all the work to be done.
    Anything else would be shambolic.

    Or who would you suggest,I see no one,no party. After the first 5 year session we should by then, know how we will go forward democratically. At least Scotland will be set up to go forward.

  220. Ghillie says:

    Why would the SNP disband?

    So long as the SNP continue to function well as a political
    party and speak for me I will vote for them.

    Hopefully all of the electorate in our Independent Scotland will also be able to find a party they can trust and who will speak for them too = )

  221. Cactus says:

    Michael Fallon is a can’t.

  222. Ken500 says:

    @ Robert Peffers

    An excellent, good poster, with reams of information. The union supporters are getting extremely rattled. Keep on keeping on. A legend. A great person to have on side. Extremely confident. Great the way information is handled and handed down, Well done.

    Along with Rev, Nana and everyone. Too many to mention. Ronnie Anderson. Good to gave Call me Dave back etc..

    Thanks Rev Stu for all you do. Massive. Thanks a billion.

  223. Lenny Hartley says:

    Gus1940 agree, however the UN declaration on Human Rights says that we should be able to determine our future without outside interference. I don’t know how we can police this but if Westminster and Europe interfere again we should be shouting from the rooftops that it’s outside interference and breaking UN accord.

  224. manandboy says:

    Keep in mind the huge death toll in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Libya.
    Consider the Thirty Years war in Northern Ireland and the many murders that took place there involving British soldiers and MI5 agents in collusion with terrorist groups.

    Think of the assault on the disabled, the poor and the unemployed labelled Austerity by the Tory Government. Think of the PFI schemes and all the Privatisations, which were just a fancy way of stealing from the Taxpayer.

    Then there was the rescue of the Casino Banks, which were full of members of the Establishment and friends of the Tories. They should be in jail. I would be if I walked into a bank and stole even just £50.

    These are just a few of the many hundreds of examples of corrupt UK Government.

    Westminster has a list of convictions for serious crime the length of Sauchiehall St., and is currently under police investigation for electoral fraud in 31 constituencies in England during the 2015 general Election.

    If the British Establishment & Government can be said to have any expertise, it is in committing crime on an industrial scale, covering it up, and brainwashing the bulk of the Electorate that nothing wrong took place. Like they did in IndyRef14.

    Bear in mind that the entire administration and control of virtually every aspect of IndyRef14 was in Unionist hands – the very people who knew that for the Union, this was a life or death situation.

    Without European Union involvement through administrators, auditors and observers at IndyRef2, Scotland hasn’t a snowflake’s chance in an iron furnace of securing Independence.

    If it comes to that – which it may not. We’ll all be a lot wiser in a month’s time.

  225. Mark Gordon says:

    Ill keep it short.

    1. The Edinburgh agreement was not to lend legitimacy but simply to put to rest any claim to the contrary. We dont need to repeat the Edinburgh Agreement but it wont do any harm if we do provided the terms are clear and not twistable against us.

    2. We need clear statement from the EU that we will be accepted immediately as a remaining member when rUK leaves.

    3. We need international observers AND exit polls. I dont believe for a minute the last referendum was rigged but given the antics across the pond the next one might be.

    4. The antics across the pond will have emboldened the unionists. Expect them to get a good deal more nasty.

    5. It still is right that we should pursue this dream.

    6. Sturgeon has to play a blinding game of chicken and get the date right.

    7. Many more of us have to get out of bed.

    8. Deal with all of that and we will win before 2019 is out.

    9. If you can do it this time forget it for a real generation and I aint returning home.

    10. HAve some balls Scotland.

  226. galamcennalath says:

    Doug says:

    Once independence is achieved the need for the SNP to be the SNP completely disappears.

    My opinion…..

    I think they will be needed more than ever. We have a fully functioning state to run AND set up in the first place. There is only one political organisation with the people, expertise, and experience to do that – the SNP.

    In the first election in iScotland I most certainly will be out campaigning for them.

    I don’t totally disagree with you though. 4-8 years down the line other parties will have developed and given a PR system (essential in any democracy) coalitions will form and those parties will begin to get experience of power.

    At the same time the SNP is a broad church and may bleed support and politicians to parties with narrower aims.

    I am sure the SNP will continue as centre party for a long time.

    What other parties? The Greens are established and will grow. The left need a voice, probably grown from scratch. The right also need a voice. Many countries have farmers/rural parties which seems sensible. Maybe a party sticking up for the Highlands and Islands.

    Anything is possible in iScotland.

    As for branches of the three Unionist parties? If factions within them get on board for Indyref2 then they will certainly form real Scottish parties. Those who oppose Indy in the upcoming bitter fight to the end? Realistically how can any of those politicians expect to play a part in iScotland?

  227. Ken500 says:

    NI would not work for registration. Some 16+ year old do not have one. Disabled etc and those who have never work – main careers etc. Do not have a NI one. There are other who do not have one. Some main careers have never worked but been supported by their household. Holiday home owners should no be voting. The Council should not be allowing them to register. The councils will identify those who are not permanent residents. Two addresses for notification of relevant documents. Energy bills, council tax etc.

    In the UK voters are only allowed one abode, permanent voting address. Otherwise it is illegal. The councils could give a slight council tax rebate to further identify these people.

    After all the pontification timorous Wee Willie opposed the budget. The LibDems sitting on the fence again. Looking for the solution most advantageous for them. Not the long suffering electorate whose finances they waste.

  228. geeo says:

    To the person above who thinks the SNP should disband after a positive Independence vote, you seem to be missing something….

    Upon Scottish Independence confirmation, EVERY unionist MP MSP and COUNCILLOR becomes unemployed with immediate effect.

    Labour, the tories and the lib dems are UK WIDE political parties, and as such, they simply CANNOT exist in an an independent Scotland.

    Scottish independence will require BRAND NEW political parties to emerge. Parties which support the views, aims and ambitions of SCOTLAND and her people.

    This is where the likes of Labour for Independence comes in, a party ideally positioned to replace the UK labour party.

    Also worth noting that the Electoral Commission is also obselete in a newly Independent Scotland and would need replaced also.

    As far as I know, the Media has NEVER addressed this issue, and no wonder.

    Imagine if Scots found out that voting for independence meant ridding ourselves of EVERY current unionist politician in Scotland overnight ?

    The ultimate motivation for getting the vote out….!!

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    Ruth Harrison gets Herald recognition.

    http://archive.is/YpHM6

    The Midge: Have you met Ruth Harrison? Defence Secretary flubs Scots Tory leader’s name

    Sorry if anyone’s posted that already, been busy.

  230. scotsbob says:

    Quick question, the BBC Scotland news page is allowing comments on the budget but no other stories. Needless to say it appears to be a list of SNP bad.

    Does anyone know the criteria for allowing comments for stories?

  231. stewartb says:

    Today (2 Feb) in the House of Commons, a notable exchange on ‘hard borders’, or rather their absence.

    Apologies for the length but its important to get full context.

    Source: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2017-02-02/debates/208B4D90-F003-4990-9F42-411631DC04BF/ExitingTheEUNewPartnership

    Question from Danny Kinahan (South Antrim) (UUP): “We welcome the White Paper, particularly chapter 4 on our links with Ireland, including on trade, security and the wish for unfettered access, but at the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs this week a customs specialist said that, for trading in goods, there will have to be border points either between Northern Ireland and Ireland or, much worse, between Scotland and England and the island of Ireland. Will the Secretary of State guarantee that we are not going to have hard borders of that type?”

    ??Answer from David Davis : “We are not going to have hard borders. I will take the question on two different levels. First, the common travel area has existed since 1923 and, in that respect, nothing will change. On goods, there will be the softest, most invisible and most frictionless border we can find. There is a lot of technology these days, ranging from automatic number plate recognition through to the tagging of containers, with trusted trader arrangements across the border, and such things operate between Norway and Sweden, the US and Canada, and so on—countries with very amicable relations and very open borders—and we will do the same with Ireland.”

    So there will be a common travel area and the softest border for goods between the Republic of Ireland and the rest of the UK (including NI), regardless it seems, given the commitment is being made today, of the UK’s eventual deal with the EU post-Brexit. When Unionists seek to scare about a hard border between an independent Scotland and the remainder of the UK being imposed on us, we should recall this very clear statement.

    Our own government post Indyref2 will negotiate with our former ‘partner’ in the UK, post independence, the nature of the border that suits Scotland. Just as Ireland does.

    ….

    On another matter: someone earlier asked “…. why should we be locked into SNP being the only choice post independence?” What! Can’t imagine that being “locked into” any party or government could conceivably form any part of an independent Scotland’s polity.

  232. Lenny Hartley says:

    Great no more expensive tendering, SG to Nationalise Ferries, mind you I thought they were de facto Nationalised anyways.
    http://archive.is/KNzHT

  233. Cactus says:

    Nicola Sturgeon..

    Yes she can.

  234. Cactus says:

    Scotland..

    Yes WE can.
    X.

  235. Juan P says:

    @scotsbob

    Re the criteria for comments being opened on Scottish issues on the bbc website.

    I’ve sought this information from the bbc previously under FOI. They just apply their perverse exemption to answer any foi they consider relates to journalism and refuse to explain how and why some articlea are opened for comment.

  236. call me dave says:

    @geeo

    “Upon Scottish Independence confirmation, EVERY unionist MP MSP and COUNCILLOR becomes unemployed with immediate effect”.

    Yes indeed an interesting point

    Hope we all get round to seeing how it pans out.

  237. Capella says:

    @ Lenny Hartley – ferries were state owned until the Thatcher government privatised them along with freight transport.

  238. Cactus says:

    What it all boils down to it, it’s this..

    Ask yourself a question Scotland..

    Are you a can or a can’t?

    Knew can, new tinny, tinto laters, cheers.

  239. Rock says:

    Breeks,

    “When will we understand, and I mean properly understand, that asking for permission to be sovereign is a de facto acknowledgement that you don’t understand the point of sovereignty?”

    The first thing we need to understand and accept is that our “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it was written on.

    Anyone who denies this should put their money where their mouths are and petition the highest court in the land to give a crystal clear answer as to the extent of our “sovereignty”.

  240. Robert Peffers says:

    @Scott Shaw says: 2 February, 2017 at 4:19 pm:

    ” … Is there no way to legally challenge the Westminster government on the sovereignty issue using the Act of Union”

    There most certainly is but, (there’s always a but), it needs a significant thing to happen first. No law can be implemented by a government if the public it applies the law to do not accept it.

    If the public do not accept a law the government may indeed attempt to enforce it but they will ultimately fail. For example the USA attempted to enforce the law of, “Prohibition of Alcohol”, and thus began what amounted to a revolution against the law. Then the USA Government set-up the FBI to fight the gangsters and they claim, even yet, that they won the fight.

    Thing is that they didn’t win the fight for alcohol is now readily available throughout the USA as it did throughout the Prohibition era. Now consider the truth – the gangsters could not have made any money unless there was a ready market for their wares and that ready market was the general public.

    The Feds gave up the fight and the situation only changed in that instead of the gangsters making the profits it is now the government as taxes and excise.

    History has more examples in every era of that history. So for the legally sovereign people of Scotland to take back their sovereignty they must first be made aware they are indeed sovereign and demand it.

    The EU has always had rules on Self-Determination, even for those who have never ever been other than members of a particular country or state. If they can be identified as a distinct group with a distinct culture. Things like their own language for example.

    However, until there is agreement within Scotland, i.e. a clear majority at the ballot box, then the Scottish Government cannot make their case.

    In my opinion we already have that mandate and I believe that is why Nicola Sturgeon is going down the road she has now adopted. At present the Indy supporting SNP and Scottish Greens have an overall majority in Holyrood.

    The SNP have rather large majority of Scots MPs at Westminster but there is a deficiency of Scottish Local Authority Councils under overall Indy party support but that could soon change.

    It is stated in Scots law that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign, Scotland has two distinct language, (Not Counting Standard Scottish English – a dialect of English), and English itself would not count but Lowland Scots and Scots Gaelic most certainly are. BTW: There are even those who support Indy that genuinely believe that The Lallans is an artificial Scots Language. This is utter twaddle and Westminster propaganda.

    Here’s a fact for you. I was brought up on a farm and I never heard English spoken until I attended the nearest village school. Yet on picking up Robert Lois Stevenson books that included dialogue in Scots I could read them easier than I could read English.

    It was the language I had learned at my Grandmother’s knee. Remember that at my age I was doing that reading while those Makars were still standardising the language. yet I could read it easier that reading the English I was being taught in school.

    The claims that such as the MacDiarmid and co had invented it were rubbish. What they did was standardise the spelling and Grammar. This because the language had been suppressed and thus was then a spoken but not written language.

    Shakespeare had done just the same for written English but you won’t see modern English claimed as an artificial language.

    So there’s the trouble of sovereignty – we Scots need to claim it for it will never be given us. If we do prove ourselves to be an identifiable cultural group then the EU will have a great deal of trouble NOT supporting our claims to self determination. Then the EU must be made aware, in no uncertain terms, that the term United Kingdom legally, and literally, refers to a Kingdom and that as such it has never been a country. The title itself should be the only proof needed.

    The finer points of, for example the treaty terms are only the extras that can prove the point.

  241. heedtracker says:

    Rock,

    The first thing we need to understand and accept is that our “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it was written on.

    Not yet.

    or

    Why not?

  242. Dan Huil says:

    Members of the Scottish Parliament will have a vote on the UK Government’s Bill to trigger Article 50 on Tuesday 7th February.

  243. Rock says:

    Cuilean,

    “I don’t think the EU will stand by and just watch England ride rough shod over Scotland”

    I am 100% sure that the EU will stand by.

  244. Capella says:

    Sorry. Should have included link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealink

  245. Dr Jim says:

    @Doug

    The SNP aren’t in charge just because they’re the party of Independence, that would make them soley a single issue entity which they’re not
    They’re a centre left moderate democratic party and that’s where most people sit on the political spectrum and that’s why they win, plus they’re very professional at it which nobody else is in Scotland

    There does seem to be a notion that post Independence there’ll be some kind of socialist revolution and I can only say if the nation ever believes that to be true Independence will never happen ever, folk will shy away in their droves
    Whether folk like it or not Scotland is conservative with a small c and that’s why middle politics suits most of the electorate, they don’t want troubled by it all, just get along with it

    The type of socialism some folk fantasise about has never worked and probably could never work because just like the far right it ends up riddled by corruption and destroys itself just like the Labour party has done
    Extreme anything is dangerous we see it all around the world and what Scotland and the SNP is moving towards is a different model, a social government if you like as opposed to socialist

    If the Scandinavians can do it we can improve on it
    New politics not old rehashed stuff

  246. Rock says:

    If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?

    If there is, which one?

  247. Iain More says:

    If I were Nicola I would be watching my back. There is something sinister and creepy about Fallon not to mention Brit Nats in general.

    Besides they can rig the IndyRef 2 vote through the PV system as it presently exists and drive several coaches and horses through the voter registration system especially where the Yoons placemen and women have their grasping mitts on Local Councils. I think that is what Fallon really means by other voices in Scotland.

  248. davidb says:

    Here’s a wee scenario. What happens if Scotland votes for independence pre-brexit, and as we expect remains a member of the EU. We would have the same voting rights I assume as the other 27 members viz any deal with rUK. Our red line could easily be the status of the border.

    And if Spain is constantly, and misleadingly, being cast up to us. Is rUK going to acceed to Spain’s desire for at least joint sovereignty over Gibralter in return for agreeing any UK/ EU deal? Are there any quotes out there to that effect that we can throw back at them every time they try their fairytale?

  249. heedtracker says:

    Rock says:
    2 February, 2017 at 7:22 pm
    If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?

    If there is, which one?

    We the people can write the law. Its what its all about, sovereignty.

  250. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 2 February, 2017 at 4:39 pm:

    “I don’t dispute a word of that Robert, but what is the mechanism that is going to bring about the end of Westminster’s view of the world as is, being ascendant over our view of the world as it should be?”

    There are more people feeding in information than I. We have those who keep quoting the EU rules on Self-Determination. Just start joining the dots. This blog is rich in information but some commenters have not gathered the different threads of information together yet.

    The EU is hot on Self-Determination and it is a basic tenet of all International Law :-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-biafra-self-determination-be-addressed-respecting-international-law-says-federica-mogherini-1538863

    Here’s a wee cut & paste :-

    “Article 21 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states: –
    21(1) – Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.”

    Note that wee word – “Country”, and there is no actual evidence that what describes itself as a United Kingdom has ever actually been a unified country. The title itself describes a unified kingdom and it only has two signatory kingdoms yet it contains four countries. Where does it say it is a country? Only the Unionists say it but ask them to prove it and see what happens.

    The internet is full of cases of self determination yet no claim as yet on behalf of Scotland but no one is going to make such a claim until we Scots start to claim it for ourselves.

    In actual fact we have far more evidence to present to international courts than just about every case you may read on the internet.

    But first we must have the Scots themselves claiming, not just self determination but, that under the Treaty of Union itself, we are legally sovereign within the United Kingdom.

    With that being acknowledged we have the best case in the World to choose whatever suits the majority of the people of Scotland and we will be backed by the EU and international law.

    We can claim full autonomy within the United Kingdom with real Federation with the English Kingdom doing the same, (the problems of Wales and N.I. is theirs not ours.)

    We can choose to end the United Kingdom or indeed unite with anyone else we choose to. The thing is the laws of both England and Scotland support our case for self determination.

    I’m not going to argue with the rest of your post. Most is quite correct and probably have legal merit.

    It is only my own opinion that the only missing part is the people of Scotland must demand the sovereign right conferred upon them by their legal system and strangely enough by the law of England.

    Mind you the first thing after that is to make the point that Westminster itself proves – There is no such thing as UK law as Westminster legislates for England under English Law and they use EVEL to enforce that English Law.

  251. Legerwood says:

    O/T

    Small news article in Herald today about BBC losing £250 million in licence fee income through people not paying. Think the figures are UK wide.

    Collectors made 3million visits but just caught 298,000 offenders which is fewer than previous years.

    Apologies if Nana has already linked to the article

  252. Lenny Hartley says:

    Capella , no your wrong Cal-Mac have never been privatised, when Labour decided to put the service out to Tender they split into two different companies, one which owned the assets and the other which operated the services. (They also registered the operating company in Jersey in order to avoid paying Employers NI contributions. )
    This from Cal-Mac website. https://www.calmac.co.uk/corporate/about-us

    Not having to tender is good news as it will save a bunch of money and removes the treat of a private company taking over the contract.

  253. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Lederwood 7.43 Hey hey follow me am a offender , there’s ah tune running through ma heid but ah canny place it lol.

  254. stewartb says:

    Re- Robert Peffers @7.38pm

    Mr Peffers you state: ” There is no such thing as UK law as Westminster legislates for England under English Law and they use EVEL to enforce that English Law.”

    A month ago, based on no legal expertise,I would have taken that as true, but now it leaves me confused! Genuine request, can you enlighten?

    As I posted on Wings on 24 January 2017 @ 12.04pm in relation to the Supreme Court judgement on Article 50, throughout the Court’s ruling there are references variously to “domestic law”, “English law” and ‘UK law”. So a reference is made to what the SC refers to explicitly as “UK law”. Why – what is this? And by the way, no reference that I can find in the SC ruling to Scots law.

  255. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Ledgerwood Ave fun it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kBj_SiZIrA DONT PAY THE TV TAX.

  256. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: all this typing alluding to there being no need for the SNP after we achieve independence.

    I would point out that there are umpteen “National Parties” in existence on this planet. Just paste “National Party” into Google and you’ll get around 6,910,000 results (1.51 seconds). Peruse them at your leisure.

    In only one respect, the SNP have done an amazing job since 2007. Ten years later, it is still the most popular party in Scotland (now with fans in the rest of the UK), despite the constant “SNP BAD!” from the BUM over the years.
    There are many thousands of Scots who do not read online news, or visit Twitter and Facebook, who are content to continue voting SNP at elections. This would not be happening if the SNP government was making a “boorach” of things or coming up with unpopular policies.

    Yes, Scotland can have a “Scottish National Party” after we are independent. In the SNP’s constitution, we find,

    “Aims 2. The aims of the Party shall be:

    (a) Independence for Scotland; that is the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty by restoration of full powers to the Scottish Parliament, so that its authority is limited only by the sovereign power of the Scottish People to bind it with a written constitution and by such agreements as it may freely enter into with other nations or states or international organisations for the purpose of furthering international cooperation, world peace and the protection of the environment.

    (b) the furtherance of all Scottish interests.”

    When independence is assured, all the SNP has to do is change the aims in the constitution, along the lines of,

    “Aims 2. The aims of the Party shall be:

    (a) Independence of Scotland; that is the preservation of Scottish national sovereignty by ensuring full powers of the Scottish Parliament, so that its authority is limited only by the sovereign power of the Scottish People to uphold a written constitution and bind it by such agreements as it may freely enter into with other nations or states or international organisations for the purpose of furthering international cooperation, world peace and the protection of the environment.

    (b) the furtherance of all Scottish interests.”

    Therefore, unless the SNP make a complete @R$€ of things after the first general election in an independent Scotland, I guess they will soldier on.

    It’ll be interesting to see how many new parties attract support in the second election in independent Scotland…

  257. Sinky says:

    BBC Question Time from Glasgow on 16 October.

    What’s the odds against three yoons and two Indy supporters on panel with a Brexit balanced audience including plenty of UKIPers.

    Apply for audience tickets here:

    https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5vyK2GwYrdQGFvCJyKNfZhn/join-the-question-time-audience

  258. Luigi says:

    Sinky says:

    2 February, 2017 at 8:05 pm

    BBC Question Time from Glasgow on 16 October.

    Apply for audience tickets here:

    https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5vyK2GwYrdQGFvCJyKNfZhn/join-the-question-time-audience

    Better tell em yer a tory or a yoon or you won’t get on. 🙂

  259. Rock says:

    heedtracker,

    “Rock says:
    2 February, 2017 at 7:22 pm
    If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?

    If there is, which one?

    We the people can write the law. Its what its all about, sovereignty.”

    Meaningless waffle.

  260. solarflare says:

    It boils my blood to think of how much stick the Scottish Government took for its 650-page White Paper before the Independence referendum, when the Brexit campaign has consisted of a crappy website, fallacy on the side of a bus, promises that turned out to be nothing more than a “series of possibilities” (thanks for that IDS), and a 76 page White Paper cobbled together at the last moment with blatantly incorrect graphs.

  261. Cuilean says:

    During the BBC programme First Minister’s Questions today, Brian Taylor of the BBC and Severin Carrell of the London Guardian, decided to re-write Fallon’s wee ‘faux pas’, that the tories will block Indyref2.

    Here’s the BBC blatant propaganda machine in full swing. Taylor sets up the BBC’s ‘alternative facts’ reporting beautifully, as follows, verbatim: ~

    BT: We’ll go to the Budget in a minute but that question from Tom Arthur, Sev, he was asking really about the.. the… remarks by Michael Fallon in the Herald and also on Good Morning Scotland this morning. Explain the background, if you would.

    SC: Well, so Michael Fallon the Defence Secretary, is in Scotland today to do several visits. Actually, there’s a bit of tory government love bombing going on, because Chris Grayling is at Glasgow Airport this afternoon to talk about Heathrow. And in an interview with the Herald, to set up this meet.. this.. er.. arrival today, Michael Fallon had said effectively that the UK government would block any second independence referendum.

    BT: He was asked if he would facilitate it, and he said “No! Forget it!”

    SV: No! Forget it! Exactly! Now. You can imagine at 7 o’clock this morning he would have been woken up this morning by a phone call from the Scottish tory leader, “Michael, it’s Ruth” because..

    BT: [Titters]

    SC: ..because it was clearly a bit..

    BT:[Prompting as SC had clearly gone off script] When he said, “Forget it! [pregnant pause] Forget it!”..

    SC: Exactly! This is not the kind of message the tories ought to be sending out at this stage.

    BT: [emphatically] No.

    SC: He went on to Good Morning Scotland at about ten past eight this morning and gave a more nuanced message making a perfectly political point that in fact the Scottish National Party government ought to be getting on with the business of domestic policy first.

    BT: Yeah. But that’s a different question from blocking it.

    SC: It is.

    BT: [turning, briefly, to Katrine Bussey from the Press Association] Katrine, what.. what did you make of it? Nicola Sturgeon saw her chance there! Didn’t she!

    KB: She did! And talking about ‘getting on with the day job’, that’s what Michael Fallon wants the Scottish government to do..

    BT: Yeah?

    KB: But surely they can now just turn around and say the same thing back to him! He shouldn’t be coming up to Scotland saying, “You know what, if the Scottish Parliament votes for another referendum, we are not going to give it to you.”

    BT: Yeah?

    KB: HE should be concentrating on HIS job!

    BT [turning quickly back to SC]: Is he saying that, Sev, or did he actually mean, “Please! Don’t do it! Don’t do it! It’s not a good idea!?” Did he mean… ah… a veto, or did he mean, it’s not a good scheme?

    SC: Well, I think that what he was talking about when he mentioned the veto, is actually reflecting what a lot of tories in London think. Which is that Nicola Sturgeon is bluffing.

    BT: Yeah.

    SC: That this is all a high stakes game, in order to try and extract most concessions as possible.

    BT: Although she has said repeatedly that she is not. Yeah.

    SC: I agree. And this … And again, I don’t think that she probably is bluffing. There is a question for her about timing…

    BT: Yeah

    SC: ..and whether or not she is getting the right level of public support. But he is just channeling a response, an emotional reaction from tories in London.

    BT: Yeah. OK.

    SC: The key issue is, however.. is that he definitely doesn’t think that it is an intelligent thing to happen.

    BT: Yeah.

    SC: And that again is a perfectly legitimate point.

    BT: OK. Interesting Sev.

    *End of verbatim dialogue*

    A masterclass from BBC Scotland in how to spin reality into make-believe. Dystopia Scotland!

  262. Robert Peffers says:

    @robertknight says: 2 February, 2017 at 4:28 pm:

    ” … Note that is >50% of those registered and entitled to vote. I suspect that any Catalonian referendum will be run on this basis therefore nullifying any boycott by Unionists or attempts to cry foul by the Spanish Govt.”

    You do know, don’t you, Robert, that Spain’s officially stated stance is that Spain will not stop an independent Scottish claim for EU membership.

    Which, as a matter of fact, only shows that Spain has not really understood what the actual United Kingdom is.

    If Scotland becomes independent there is no more United Kingdom. There are only the signatures of Scotland and England on that Treaty and there was no other independent kingdoms in Britain in 1707. The 1800/1 were not Treaties between independent kingdoms but acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and involved the two parts of Ireland that were having a civil war between themselves.

    As all Ireland had come under the Lordship of the King of England by order of the Holy Roman See during the Norman Conquest of Ireland and the Irish Parliament enacted the Crown of Ireland Act in 1542 that placed the crown of Ireland on the King of England’s head

    The entire Kingdom of Ireland was annexed as part of England in 1542, a long time before the United Kingdom was formed in 1707. So as both parts of Ireland in 1800/1 were already part of the English Kingdom there was no treaty just an agreement between two parts of the United Kingdom over a civil war.

    There quite simply are only two partner kingdoms in the United Kingdom and when either partner decides it has had enough the United Kingdom has ended.

    It is utter poppycock that Westminster is claiming and the facts speak for themselves. 1800/1 only acknowledged that Northern Ireland was also a part of the Union and, if anything it acknowledges that when Westminster named it as part of the union as not part of the kingdom of England they had conceded that it partly also belonged to the two kingdom partners of the actual United Kingdom.

    You cannot have a united kingdom of more than two kingdoms because there were no other kingdoms to be united with after 1707.

  263. Capella says:

    @ Lenny Hartley – I thought you meant ferries in general. I used to travel to the continent via the Sealink ferries which were publicly owned as part of British Rail. These were privatised by the Tory government. I should have included the link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealink

    On 27 July 1984 the UK Government sold Sealink UK Limited to SeaContainers for £66m. The company was renamed Sealink British Ferries. In 1991, Sea Containers sold Sealink British Ferries to Stena Line.

  264. Lenny Hartley says:

    Question time frae glasgow 16th feb

  265. heedtracker says:

    Rock says:
    2 February, 2017 at 8:13 pm
    heedtracker,

    Well who writes Scots law?

  266. Cuilean at 8.21

    Don’t get your point here. I thought that interview was more than good for us and pretty balanced

  267. HandandShrimp says:

    What was Murdo on with the watermelon gibe at the Greens. That is a US racist trope isn’t it?

  268. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Rock says: Meaningless waffle.

    You’re making good progress, recognition is the first stage and denial would be counter-productive.

    Keep up the good work!

  269. galamcennalath says:

    Legerwood says:

    BBC losing £250 million in licence fee income through people not paying

    I wonder if that is an estimate of people with TVs not paying, or is it people who no longer watch live TV and is therefore a loss in income.

    Wonder what it was, say ten years ago. And, how it is distributed around the UK.

    About 1.6 million households.

  270. Cuilean says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 8.44 pm

    Brian Taylor states: Is he saying that, Sev, or did he actually mean, “Please! Don’t do it! Don’t do it! It’s not a good idea!?” Did he mean… ah… a veto, or did he mean, it’s not a good scheme?

    The BBC’s Taylor creates doubt concerning Fallon’s clear statement of intent, where none should, rationally, exist.

  271. crazycat says:

    @ Handandshrimp

    Watermelons are green on the outside and red (ie communists) on the inside.

  272. galamcennalath says:

    Next Tuesday the Scottish Parliament get to vote on Article 50.

    I expect the SNP and Greens to vote against calling A50.

    Wonder what the three Unionist parties will do?

    Interesting times.

  273. heedtracker says:

    Rock says:
    2 February, 2017 at 8:13 pm
    heedtracker,

    Come on man with the plan, Mr know it all, who writes Scots Law?

    Its a simple question Rock and if you get it right, there’s another waiting for you.

  274. Robert Peffers says:

    @Desimond says: 2 February, 2017 at 4:31 pm:

    “As much as I like Roberts Peffers posts, I keep thinking of the phrase “History is written by the winners”
    In this case, England and Westminster sit in the winners seat with folk like Grima Wormtongue Mundell watering the seeds of disdain.”

    Whoa! There! Desimond. Although history is indeed written by the winners would you like to explain how there can be official winners in a legally binding Treaty of Union??

    This Union is not written into history as a war between two kingdoms or even a war between two countries.

    The Official History is that the United Kingdom was given birth by a Treaty of Union freely entered into by two, equally sovereign, kingdoms that, just because of a royal marriage a century previously, ended up with the King of Scotland inheriting the crown of England.

    “James VI inherited the throne of England after the death of his mother’s cousin, Queen Elizabeth I. James married Anne of Denmark by proxy on August 20, 1589, and in person on November 23, 1589 and again in person in January 21, 1590. They had eight children, of whom only three lived beyond infancy: Henry, Prince of Wales- (February 19, 1594 – November 6, 1612), Elizabeth Stuart – (August 19, 1596 – February 13, 1662), and King Charles I of England, Scotland and Ireland – (November 19, 1600 – January 30, 1649).”

    Now consider this – Each Kingdom’s still independent parliament drew up and signed their own Act of Union, (almost identical). And these are still readable today and, incidentally have never been rescinded. (There have been a few small changes, though).

    So they are still the only treaty that holds the two kingdoms legally together. The fact is that both kingdoms are equally sovereign and there has been no legislation passed that can alter the, “Articles of Union”, and each article is a legally binding contract in itself.

    However, events before the Treaty affect the legal standing of the treaty in 1707 and they are thus :- In Scotland, in 1320, the Declaration of Arbroath changed the law of Scotland forever from the then, common throughout Christendom, “Divine Right of Kings”, and thus took from the Monarchy the sovereignty of Scotland and made the people of Scotland sovereign. It is still Scottish law.

    In 1688 the law of the Kingdom of England only slightly changed from Divine Right of Kings. In their case they kept the monarchy legally sovereign but forced their imported monarchy to legally delegate their divine right, (sovereignty), to the Parliament of the Kingdom of England.

    Thus it became a, “Constitutional Monarchy”. But Scotland was still an independent kingdom so the English law does not apply in Scotland.

    So just where does anything change the laws of Scotland that the treaty of Union, (article 19), stipulates will always remain independent? Furthermore, as only England, Wales and Ireland were in the Constitutional Monarchy, how does it happen that Westminster says Scotland is part of their constitutional monarchy?

    Think about it – as Divine Right is factually sovereignty then legally the people of Scotland have divine right and the people of the kingdom of England are subjects of a legally sovereign monarch but Scots cannot be anyone’s subject because they are sovereign.

    Yet we are told it is Her Majesty’s Government at Westminster but Holyrood cannot, even if set-up by Westminster, be her Majesty’s Parliament because in Scotland she is Queen of Scots and they, not she are legally sovereign.

    Which is the original reason that Scots and English law are forever incompatible and must remain legally independent. There really is no legislation that says otherwise and there cannot legally be any.

    It is no more than illegal power grab by Westminster and, in itself, legal grounds to dissolve the bipartite union.

    And why has it not happened before now? Because we Scots did not assert our legal sovereignty – I believe it is long past time that we, as Indy supporters educated our fellow country folks. But first how about educating ourselves?

  275. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have just had a “left field” thought, which came to me while reading Scot Goes Pop. I hope someone more-learned (Robert Peffers) can tell me whether or not it would work.

    The thought is:

    Westminster has to be the battle ground for Independence. Under the 1706/7 Treaty/Act of Union, the parliament of the Kingdom of England was abolished; the parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland suspended itself – to form the new Unitd Kingom Parliament.

    This remains th paramount parliament of the UK, the two regional assemblies in Belfast and Cardiff and the reconvened Scottish Parliament in Holyrood were all formed with the permission of the UK parliament at Westminster, which devolved limited powers to the three new bodies.

    As someone (I forget who) said: “Power devolved is power retained).

    The pro-independence Scottish MPs have to take the initiative in getting us out of the UK. They need the full backing of Holyrood, but, the 59 and the 59 alone, are the ones who can tear-up the Act/Treaty of Union, on the grounds that Scotland’s interests are no longer being looked after by the UK Parliament.

    The SNP government could perhaps, at a push, place an Act before Holyrood which states: “Holyrood isn’t working, it cannot work, so, we are dissolving ourselves and handing power back to Westminster.”

    The 59 Scottish MPs (or at least the 56 SNP/pro-independence members) then tell Westminster: “The UK parliament no longer works for Scotland – we (the SNP) have a majority; we believe we are better-off as an independent kingdom – we are off”.

  276. Joemcg says:

    Well I have applied for Glasgow QT! I’ve stated my allegiances so it’s a very long shot! I’ll let you know!

  277. Stoker says:

    ronnie anderson wrote on2 February, 2017 at 7:58 pm:

    Re; BBC licence fee: “Hey hey follow me am a offender , there’s ah tune running through ma heid but ah canny place it lol.”

    And i decided a few months ago Ronnie that i’d do just that. Since September of 2016 they’ve been bombarding me with reminders that my 2 years are up come January 2017. Around the 3rd week of every month i’ve received one of their “reminders” until the one i received in January.

    It was a wee change from the norm and informed me that if i don’t contact them by 2nd February they will start a full investigation of my address. They even had it circled in red on a wee mock calendar just in case this thick Jock didn’t understand. BTW, emphasis is theirs – Oh, i’m shitting a brick!

    Up until now i’ve always notified them that i don’t need a licence and i never have. I just can’t be arsed with them, their discredited output, their gumsy goons and their very existence really. I don’t need a licence but it’ll cost them to find out.

    Meanwhile, Good Morning America
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cwzp4Z4XUAQhCph.jpg:large

  278. heedtracker says:

    Joemcg says:
    2 February, 2017 at 9:51 pm
    Well I have applied for Glasgow QT! I’ve stated my allegiances so it’s a very long shot! I’ll let you know!

    Why not apply as a tory, red or blue? they seem to check everything though, especially that mental far right audience producer. Its probably just a quick chat, to see if you’re the right sort. Just keep saying Jimmy Krankie over and over. They love that sort of yoon culture.

  279. Stoker says:

    Joemcg on 2 February, 2017 at 9:51 pm

    ffs Joe! You stand no chance now coming on here and announcing it.
    (rolls eyes skyward)
    Good luck!

  280. Joemcg says:

    Fucks sake! Schoolboy error!! ? You’ve got to be in it to win it! They need one seperatist surely??!!

  281. Effijy says:

    Dippy Dug, Red Tory Leader of the Westminster North Accounting unit is just mind numbingly stupid.

    At FMQ today she goes off on a rant about SNP not stopping Austerity???

    That would be the decade of austerity started by her Labour
    Party when in power.
    That would be the austerity her Labour Party abstained from when their Tory cousins wanted to ramp up austerity.

    Is there anyone with special needs training that could explain to her that when Scotland’s budget is cut every year by Westminster, the amount of good works that can be done with it reduces?

    Her party took a full year before deciding if it was against the Bedroom Tax that hammered the country’s disabled and elderly particularly hard.

    She couldn’t run a Bath!

  282. crazycat says:

    @ Socrates

    “Power devolved is power retained” is usually attributed to Enoch Powell.

    I’ve just tried to find out exactly when and in what context he said it, but that particular phrase does not appear in an Wikiquote page about him – someone must have decided what to include though. He was a classicist, so I had wondered whether he was quoting an ancient Greek (such as Socrates, perhaps!).

    I’m none the wiser – there are plenty of people asserting that he said it, but they don’t elaborate. I’d forgotten that he was a unilateral nuclear disarmer, though. Strange chap.

  283. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Stoker good manny . I was in Helensburgh on monday night Clyde Bar gave out a some of the Misreporting Stickers , when asked about non payment & getting threatening visits / letters .

    I told them to download Prof John Robertsons Bias reports & submit them to Court should they ever get summons , the Muppet Court ( district councillors ) would be lost & would have to refer it to a Sheriff court , there are plenty of examples of Bbc Bias that goes against they’re so called charter & that to should be enter’d as a defence.

  284. The thing about QT in Glasgow they’ll produce a “balanced audience”. That be Tory, a Laourite, A LibDem, a right wing journalist (probably English) and an SNP spokesperson (probably unknown to most viewers)

    The last QT from Scotland all three unionists were from England. I don’t think they can afford to put Ruthie on as HIGNFY is about as far as her political abilities will carry her and she will be found out (as is happening as we speak. Anybody notice how we are seeing more of Murdo now?).

    A balanced Scottish QT should see a couple of independistas, a Green,one unionist and a prominent SCOTTISH journalist.

    Sturgeon, Harvie, Dugdale, Sheppard and Lesley Riddoch. Looks good to me.

  285. Dek says:

    Press & Journal Energy Voice – Scottish independence is biggest threat to North Sea oil development but Nigeria is still a good bet despite militant threat…..

  286. Roland Smith says:

    There is a crowd funder open for the IScot magazine, its worth supporting and a decent read if you have not looked at it before.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-magazine-phase-3-the-last-call#/

    Wings readers are known for their generosity so if you have a few on spare they would be grateful.

  287. Roland Smith says:

    Forgot to say you can download Febs edition for free to see what you could help save.

    https://pocketmags.com/iscot

  288. Meindevon says:

    Ok I have applied for Question Time in Torquay next week. Never done anything like this before. Any rubbishing of Scotland and I’ll be the one getting evicted. ?

  289. Who the feck is that Irish arse on QT?

  290. scunner says:

    “should the MPs that voted against the the A50 proceedings be looking for a new job”

    Are these people f**cking insane?

  291. David Mooney says:

    QT on now. FFS it’s like Scotland doesn’t exist. Looking for another job you bunch of arrogant morons. The SNP MPs are voting they way their constituents voted.

  292. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 2 February, 2017 at 4:38 pm:

    “Regarding Scott Shaw’s comment at 4.19
    .. he was only joking Robert. Honestly. Please Don’t respond. Don’t fall into his trap. He’s just trying to get you to write a long screed as a wind up. Dont do it Robert. Don’t fall for it.
    Please don’t.”

    The day I take advice from you will be a day to remember.

    Has it not penetrated yet that I enjoy such subjects and I don’t give a damn if some idiot thinks themselves smart. If I have the slightest chance to show the way that Scotland has been ill treated by unionists I’m going to grab it with both hands.

    I don’t give a damn if any particular person doesn’t like it for you had better believe that knowledge is strength and it is knowledge that will free Scotland from the evil, (and EVEL), that Westminster dishes out.

    Why would I bother about sitting here typing? I’m mainly housebound now and not doing much else anyway. The point is that besides the regular commenters and the regular trolls there are a great many who come to read and learn. If I can impart just one truth to one person who did not know it then I have done well.

    For heaven sake I sometimes even reply to you, if I think that by doing so a Scottish person might learn something of how their country has been cheated and abused by the Westminster Establishment.

    Think about it – some here tramp the streets and climb stairs pushing leaflets through letter boxes. I cannot do that anymore. So why would I not take every chance to post on Wings?

  293. David P says:

    I confidently predict that the right-wing unionist journalist on the panel at QT in Glasgow on 16th February will be Merryn Somerset-Webb.

    I also confidently predict that she will be introduced as the editor-in-chief of money week, and that there will be absolutely NO MENTION of the fact that she is a member of the advisory board of the uber-unionist campaigners, Scotland in Union.

    She’ll be introduced as a ‘detached’ observer, when it is clear that she is anything but detached.

  294. HandandShrimp says:

    Anybody notice how we are seeing more of Murdo now?).

    Dave

    Murdo is a complete roaster. I assumed he was allowed to Tweet to make Ruth look half way sane.

  295. James Barr Gardner says:

    QT Glasgow 16th Feb is there a wee welcome meeting planned ?

  296. scunner says:

    “Straight bananas” – FFS

  297. James Barr Gardner says:

    QT has reached new lows, I did not think this was possible, not surprised at Wallasey audience, hand picked by British Biased Clique.

    That front row in the Wallasey audience at #bbcqt must be getting soaked.

    HA.ha.ha, ……….

    Switched off now as it’s now beyond funny, Pish is a better descriptor.

  298. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ken500 says: 2 February, 2017 at 5:24 pm:

    “The Unionist/Green mates getting even more taxpayers money to waste. Calling it local ‘Democracy’. Devolved decisions. Corrupt Unionists playing other Parties like a fiddle. They will take the rap st the elections May 2017.”

    There’s a lot of truth in that, Ken500. I’ve always been against any form of pollution from whatever source. I was born within site of quite a few big red bings of spent shale and had the badly polluted River Almond to the north, badly polluted Goggar Burn to the south and the equally badly polluted Linn House Water to the west.

    Not to mention a large area that had once been a main rubbish dump for Edinburgh in the days when the transportation was horses.

    The point is that I would be inclined to join the Greens but for their many strange non-scientific policies. For example it is crazy to attempt to suppress road building and other such infrastructure as people will always need transport. The right policy is to encourage road transport that does not rely upon fossil fuels and that includes electricity generated by nuclear and/or fossil fuels.

    In the case of the SNP – need I remind you that middle initial letter stands for National – not Nationalist.

    They are doing absolutely the best job of running Scotland for the benefit of the people of Scotland in my lifetime. While independence is presently a key policy to do so, when realised, there still will always be a need for a party that will put Scotland and her people’s wellbeing above all else.

  299. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Robert Peffers Carry on, doing as you doing Robert btw there’s nae Barbara Booby in that Carry On lol.

  300. heedtracker says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    2 February, 2017 at 11:42 pm
    @Ken500 says: 2 February, 2017 at 5:24 pm:

    “The Unionist/Green mates getting even more taxpayers money to waste

    Scottish Greens should going after the tories on both sides of the border non stop, on Green issues and then everything else. But they cant because they want the Green tory vote. Catch 22. Its going to be their downfall eventually. You’re a tory or you’re not, there is no half way house for the Greens, just ask a FibDem. They might learn, before its too late.

  301. Robert Peffers says:

    @mike d says: 2 February, 2017 at 5:25 pm:

    “O/t i see the aussie pm didn’t lick trumps ar*e,unlike the excuse in westmidden.”

    Yes I read the headline, “Trump in, “Worst call by far”, with Australian PM”. Then Trump terminated the call.

  302. Clootie says:

    You can’t force someone to respect you but you can refuse to be disrespected by them.

    They have never respected the views of Scotland. However what is annoying them most now is that we are refusing to accept that behaviour…except for the “Scot buts”

    Only the remains of Labour, the Tories and the grovelling LibDems retain the forelock tugging behaviour of the past. The equal partnership farce is busted but 300 years of conditioning remains.

  303. Tam Jardine says:

    QT absolutely ridiculous. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland non existent. Not one but 2 actual conservatives on the panel.

    Some of the audience comments like the straight banana woman just crushingly, endlessly thick.

    The treatment of Jezza is reminiscent of The Party’s “Two minutes hate” from 1984. Dimbleby- without a hint of irony asked the tory to his left to comment on allegations of media bias against Corbyn…

    Sometimes I wonder if this is all just a dream and I’m going to wake up in the shower with Bobby Ewing. Or else Bobby is going to wake up in the shower having had a strange and complicated dream that he was working in Leith and observing the end of the UK.

    Now Derek Hatton’s on This Week: the discussion being what is wrong with Jeremy Corbyn. Jesus. To bed.

  304. Thepnr says:

    @Tam Jardine

    Sweet dreams Tam. Our time is coming.

  305. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lenny Hartley says:2 February, 2017 at 6:01 pm:

    “Gus1940 agree, however the UN declaration on Human Rights says that we should be able to determine our future without outside interference. I don’t know how we can police this but if Westminster and Europe interfere again we should be shouting from the rooftops that it’s outside interference and breaking UN accord.”

    Tell you what – every one of us a an EU citizen and the EU has stuff all over the net about Self Determination and I see they have bits about every other autonomous region and semi-autonomous region that is claiming they want independence.

    Perhaps if we started to bother the EU about the Scottish situation we might get some results. If we do no more than get it across that the United Kingdom is in fact a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms, and not a country, and that the England massive percentage of voters and thus MPs have morphed it into a union of countries and relegated the Kingdom of Scotland to just another dominion of England.

    We can also point out that this is easily proven as Westminster really is operated as the de facto Parliament of England that is relegating all others by operating EVEL.
    It comes as a shock to many outsiders of Britain when you point out that there is no parliament of England. We should make great play upon that as it drives the truth home so well.

    In fact I’ve seen Englanders jaws drop open when they attempt to make a point that we Scots have our own parliament but England has none and you tell them they have but it calls itself the UK parliament then you prove it by asking them to describe how England is funded. Because, believe it or not most of them do not know.

    This must have an effect especially now that England and the EU are at loggerheads and Scotland wants to remain as EU citizens.

    There will never be a better time to attempt to get Europe on our side. Really speaking I think that much of Europe, and even the World, is as fooled by Westminster as the most Scots have been. The World at large thinks that the terms England, United Kingdom and Britain are synonymous and Scotland, Wales and N.I. are actually really regions of a country with those names and it really is all just other names for England.

    It actually comes as news to most other people from outside Britain and those parts of Britain outwith the UK know it full well too.

  306. Liam says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    “there still will always be a need for a party that will put Scotland and her people’s wellbeing above all else.”

    And for the world’s wellbeing. They are our best chance of getting nukes out of Scotland. I know it’s not an issue that our MSPs meet every day on the doorstep. But it is one of the reasons I would have voted SNP before I even considered the thought of moving here.

    BTW, is there any reason why the SNP don’t/can’t stand in constituencies in Englandshire?

  307. ScottishPsyche says:

    Caught a bit of QT Tonight. It is starting to come across as a contrived scripted reality programme. Roles are being played out in the audience – the angry Kipper, the token EU national, the comedy banana woman. I had not seen or heard of the bizarre Irish Tory and have no wish to ever again.

    Maybe to add interest in Glasgow a flash mob of Yessers could coordinate an appearance in the audience? I suspect all those Dundee Tories will be in Glasgow and will be picked to speak.

  308. Chick McGregor says:

    Socrates and Proud Cybernat
    “I liked the suggestion, on the Rev’s Twitter feed, that we start calling Ruth “Harrison” Davidson “Indy” – after Harrison Ford’s best-known character.”

    Woa right there!

    Independence First were there, err, first:-

    http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/Indy.gif

    Who knows, the campaign for the right to an indy ref might have to resurrect.

    Now where is that UN dossier?

  309. Chick McGregor says:

    A more appropriate Hollywood connection for Post Ruth Davidson would surely be:-

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzs6canvtuyupyw/BombGirl.jpg?dl=0

  310. Kestral says:

    All busy being armchair warriors are we

    Just caught the news while eating dinner

    Just surfed the latest insult and was soo outraged

    What do you really give to this cause

    Get of your ar&# and fight for what you believe in

    YOU HAVE 1 CHANCE LEFT

    Just 1 while snp are ahead

  311. G4jeepers says:

    @RobertP

    Maybe here’s a means of conveying your aforementioned message to the EU

    https://www.change.org/p/do-you-want-personal-eu-citizenship-send-a-message-to-the-european-parliament

  312. Still Positive says:

    Chick @ 1.30.

    Hahahahaha. She’s bound to come a cropper soon.
    4

  313. Meg merrilees says:

    RE Fallon and blocking Indyref2:

    My sister reads the Daily Mail – sorry!

    She voted yes in 2014 (because she thought that would take us out of the EU) and voted leave in 2016. After hearing that WM might block another Indyref , she said tonight:

    Westminster can’t do that to us – they can’t block a referendum if that’s what Scotland wants. I voted for Leave but I didn’t vote for this mess – I don’t really know what I voted for but I’ll definitely vote YES this time round; so will a lot of people if they try and stop us.I’m not having that!

    Keep chipping away, one at a time, slowly, slowly, catchy No voters!

  314. Meg merrilees says:

    PS:

    I told her about Sir Nicholas Soames ‘woofing’ at Tasmina and just before Christmas I told her to see how many Union Flags were appearing in the supermarket. She was shocked
    by both tales.

    I also said that it wasn’t our future but her children’s future and we had a duty to vote the way they want things to be – she thought that was a valid point.

    Brothers – in – law next!

  315. Meg merrilees says:

    Black Joan @1.30pm

    Congratulations – welcome to the SNP.
    I understand exactly how you feel!

    I joined the SNP after the UK SC judgement – have always resisted being a ‘party animal’ but in total frustration at what is happening around us and the danger Scotland is in.
    Got my membership card today – very pretty picture of the Kelpies on it.

    I wonder how many others have signed up this year?

  316. Thepnr says:

    @Kestral

    Your insult was the latest insult. Outraged so I um!

  317. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Beware of Tories baring gifts.

    Micheal Gove is on the prowl in Scotland today telling the locals that ONCE we all leave the EU, Scotland might get offered more powers, Honest!!!

    Reminds me of the “VOW” just before the IndyRef1 vote.

    Take a hike Gove!!!

  318. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good morning,

    Links, Lovely Links, Thank you. Kettle’s on!

    Peace Always

  319. Nana says:

    Good morning Smallaxe, taking it easy I hope?

  320. Hamish100 says:

    I thought there was a limit to the insults that can be thrown between MSP’s at Holyrood. Can only assume the tirade by Frazer is deemed acceptable by the Presiding Officer who I must say , so far hasn’t excelled himself. Of course the issue is to insult more as the Tories position themselves for a new leadership contest as Davidson becomes a full time TV starlet. Brexit starlet Frazer is going for the full hard right vote.

  321. Smallaxe says:

    Nana:

    Charging the batteries Nana, no other plans, your links will do me for today, thank you. Hope you are well.xx

    Peace Always

  322. DerekM says:

    lol i see the Ruth Harrison honest we are not tories party are still raging.

    Now you know i was having a think about this they seemed so sure they were going to shut down the budget vote,i cant help wondering if the Greens just sold them a line and then gave them the bird,it would explain murdo`s insane raging about sandals,lentils and watermelons lol

    If you did Greens nice one.

  323. Hamish100 says:

    BBC toodiloo the noo setting up the questions for Gove. Too cosy by far. No challenge. Indy ref 2 not wanted by people according to Gove BBC – Yes comes the wee response.
    Really?

    Chummy interview right enough.

  324. Ken500 says:

    C. Murray becomes more bitter and twisted. No one has troughed more at the trough of Unionism. The extravagance of a foreign office posting as a representative if the British Gov. A lifelong pension? Demoted because of his own failing. Alcoholism. Alcoholics make poor decisions and choices. He has made a deserved recovery with perseverance and proper ‘total abstinence’ proper counselling. Being rejected by the Home Office was obviously a traumatic experience which has come to cloud the judgement. Then being let go from an advantageous career, when the position became untenable. Regales against the establishment. An establishment of which he was content enough to be part. Until the falling from grace. A self responsibility. Now in a major crusade of revenge’. Instead of letting it go. Accepting of a personal part which was played. Humility.

    Not gaining a position as candidate for the SNP obviously rankles. Another (public) rejection. Or ‘humiliation’. It was just the case they were many excellent, suitable candidates. Longer term SNP members. Everyone has to stay in line and wait their opportunity. Not expect ‘celebrity’ to jump the queue. A simply matter of suitability and experience for the role. Subsequent actions have endured a difficult decision, as the right one that was taken.

    The calling out of the SNP st every opportunity. The cohesive, justifiable decision called out. Compared unfavourably to the British establishment. Every decision called out. It would appear of malicious spite. A quest to be in that position. Jealousy. The SNP MP’s have to be at Westminster to hold the Unionists to account and stand up for Scotland. This they affectively have do every day. It can’t be easy regarding the insults and outrageous hostility with which they are confronted every day, in Westminster and the Press. Events which often go maliciously reported. ‘Woof, Woof.

    There is probably no place they would not rather be. Especially back in Scotland. Yet they are accused, while doing their best, of becoming a part of the Establishment. When in reality nothing could be further from the case, They were elected to serve the interest of their constituencies and Scotland. This they do more than successfully. Especially in the circumstances of corrupt Westminster Unionist Gov. Telling lies and no tedemption. Image if the SNP MP’s were not there, in the circumstances. A catastrophe for Scotland. The Unionists consistently ignoring Scotland call for consistency and proper governance. Westminster Unionists make the Law and break the Law, with impunity.

    C. Murray deletes and bans. Even when not controversial So much for support for openness and freedom of speech. Regurgitates columns from other sites Canary – Guido with no acknowledgement. Claiming disputable ownership?. It is a shame when personal vendetta, clouds otherwise interesting discourse of common cause. Regales against success but wants a piece of it. A fifth column used to confuse and dilute a direct campaign. Independence is bigger than any one person.

    There are other dissenters, causing more harm than good. It would be good to refrain in the interests of a better campaign. Tommy Sheridan realised that position. An excellent orator for the cause. After Independence, everything is negotiable. Or up for grabs for success in Scotland. Wings deletes and bans but for a purpose. Every other site has been taken over by unionist derision. The aim to successfully ruin the sites of any Independence support, especially in MSM. A shame all round.

  325. Macart says:

    @ Nana

    Mornin’ Nana. A fine selection you’ve got there and here’s another beaut to add.

    http://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/02/02/us-halts-former-premier-at-airport/

    This goes waaaay beyond facepalm for Mr Trump’s travel idiocy.

  326. gordoz says:

    O/T re Mason story in Times of England

    Kenny Farquharson is a Fud !! Needed said.

    What a ‘Troubles’ stirring dangerous Fud wi a keyboard.

    They will stop at nothing in the loyalist conviction of the Union.

    DISGUSTING … No doubt he will be on tv tonight to tell us more. Pathetic.

  327. Macart says:

    @Nana

    Its going to cost them right enough. L.A. were hoping to host the 2024 Olympics and were up for the tender. Given the current travel ban and diplomatic relations degrading across the globe at an alarming rate, I’m guess that tender along with tourism to the States in general is pretty much heading for the slurry pit at this point.

  328. Robert Peffers says:

    @G4jeepers says: 3 February, 2017 at 1:51 am
    @RobertP
    “Maybe here’s a means of conveying your aforementioned message to the EU
    https://www.change.org/p/do-you-want-personal-eu-citizenship-send-a-message-to-the-european-parliament

    I was thinking more along the lines of a message – perhaps an open letter to EU parliamentarians,

    “How can the EU parliament even contemplate allowing the Kingdom of England to drag unwilling EU citizens of the Kingdom of Scotland out of their EU citizenship?

    While the United Kingdom is the Member State it is, after all, a Union of two equally sovereign Kingdoms. It is not now, and never has been a unified country but contains four distinct countries.

    Westminster is operating as if it were the de facto parliament of the country of England but continues to call itself the United Kingdom Parliament. It is thus devolving almost useless power of the de facto parliament of the country of England to three other, unequal devolved, UK countries.

    Yet there is not a single member of the United Kingdom Parliament elected to a Parliament of England. No actual parliament of the country of England exists. Yet the United Kingdom has been split up as four countries and there are only three of those countries that have elected parliaments. There is no elected parliament of England.

    Please note that Westminster bars elected Members of the UK Parliament from voting upon English Matters but then has United Kingdom members from England wearing their England hats who are the de facto Parliamentarians of England.”

    That makes several things clear to the MEPs. The UK is indeed a bipartite union of Kingdoms but the Westminster Parliament operates as the de facto parliament of England as no other such parliament exists.

  329. Famous15 says:

    Hamish @7.53

    For accuracy the presiding officer was being deputised by Christine Graham SNP MSP during the Tory lentil munching,watermelon rant.

    She very politely told him to moderate his language.

    I thought her response was just enough and avoided any complant of bias .Any intelligent listener would have read between the lines and would be reminded that the Tories are still in the school playground.

  330. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I am surprised/disappointed that nobody has picked-up on my suggestion of last night, that Westminster has to be the main battle-ground on which we fight Independence.

    If we accept the suggestion (thanks to those who reminded me it was Enoch Powell who made it): that “power devolved is power retained)then Westminster and not Holyrood will have the final say on Independence.

    We have to get their agreement to hold an Independence Referendum
    They will have to rubber stamp the decision.

    So, we will have to fight them there.

    The 56 pro-independence Scottish MPs should maybe be using Westminster against them. For instance, the Scottish Grand Committee (SGC), has not sat since 2003, but, it has never been dissolved. The SGC is Scotland’s equivalent of EVEL, surely there are means whereby the SNP MPs could place a bill before the House of Commons (perhaps around the time of Indyref2) questioning the unfairness of the Act of Union and stating that it is no longer fit for purpose.

    That bill is passed by something like a 56-3 or maybe even a 58-1 majority, then is voted down by the whole House when it comes up for final ratification – thereby demonstrating to the people of Scotland, that they are being held as an English colony.

    We have to be cleverer than them – ok not difficult I accept – but, we have to fight a guerrilla war with Westminster. Go in, hit them, hurt them, come out, go in again elsewhere.

  331. Nana says:

    @Macart

    Aye and it works both ways. A while back my friend sent me the article below, the stand out sentence “Take care not to stand out as an american”

    http://archive.is/4fZRO

    She usually has a wicked sense of humour but right now she says things look dark.
    Her grandson was planning to take a year out travelling in Europe with a couple of pals so her daughter went looking for advice on the necessary forms and stuff he would need.I’m not sure if the trip is still on or not.

  332. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Much as I admire his discourses on this thread, I must pull-up the esteemed Mr Peffers on something he wrote in his post @ 8.57 – the final paragraph thereof.

    Scottish members are NOT barred from voting on matters which the House decides are “English only” and covered by EVEL.

    EVEL only works at the committee stage. When a bill which has been debated at the committee stage under EVEL comes before the House for final ratification, every member – English, Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh is free to vote or to table amendments.

    In theory, this is fair. In practice, the inbuilt English majority ensures – what England wants, England gets.

  333. Cuilean @ 8.21 2nd Feb.
    Excellent transcription of the Brian Severin FMQ whitewash of the Minister for War’s ‘forget it’ putdown remarking on the prospect of Indyref 2.
    Saved me the bother.
    From now on in, I believe that we should reproduce verbatim this sort of nonsense.
    Brian Taylor, you are broadcast journalist, not a member of the Union’s Ministry of Truth.
    You should be ashamed of yourself.
    How much is Serverin, sorry ‘Sev’ coining in on appearance money to peddle Unionist lies? Because this ‘alternative facts’ version of the Minister For War’s ‘forget it’ ‘back in your box, Jox’ put down goes beyond ridicule. It is sinister Lord Haw Haw Propaganda,and look what happened to him.
    Keep it up, Cuilean, ye son of Scotland.

  334. gerry parker says:

    Robert @ 8:57

    I sent the following to Alyn Smith MEP – no reply as yet.

    Alan.
    A most interesting set of links.

    As you know, the BBC is constantly miss reporting or ignoring what is being said within the EU and these links are invaluable.

    Is the EU aware of the democratic deficit within the UK and how the other Kingdom is constantly over ruling, ignoring and threatening the kingdom of Scotland using the most obvious propaganda methods using the foreign owned media and the BBC?

    Personally I would like the EU to be made aware that there are 2 Kingdoms in the UK, and one of them has declared that it doesn’t want to leave.

    Gerry Parker

  335. call me dave says:

    Aye I caught the Morecambe and Wise tribute act on radio shortbread this morning as big Brian fed the right lines to Gove and kept him on message.

    Back bencher he is, proffering his own opinions he says but stopped short of declaring his opinion on Indy 2 , leaving it to Mrs may to decide.

    PS:
    Shortage of greens in Scotland folks, but thankfully just enough in Holyrood to make a difference yesterday.

    PPS:

    Salmon was £9.50kg a year ago stopped buying it when it hit £12.90 about two months ago now £16.95.

    Cant even get the salmon with the head & tail on. Sturgeon must act on this!!

    🙂

  336. Andrew McLean says:

    Nana 9:17
    the stand out sentence for me was this “it means downplaying American mannerisms like laughing out loud, smiling a lot or using hand gestures.”

    See Scotland, with Independence we too could smile a lot and laugh out loud, because sometimes when perambulating our fine streets of an evening, I am often struck with the thought that some of our fine citizens have just had an unfortunate encounter with some vagabond who has just slapped their face with a wet fish!

    Laugh don’t make me Laugh, in fact we are such strangers to that word I honestly had to look up a dictionary to ensure I had spelt it correctly, so seldom is it used in our vocabulary, even now I cant believe their is no “T”!

    This must be a by-product of the negative campaign run by pretend Scots, like the BBC and the unionists, to whom I offer my hand gesture ,,!,,

  337. Ken500 says:

    It is noticeable with a second IndyRef looming ever closer on the horizon. The ignorant, arrogant Tories are coming to Scotland to try and justify their appalling, grotesque policies. Trying to get a reprieve. Every statement that they make not only shows their appalling ignorance but how much they are out of sync with the majority view of the public. A total catastrophe of policy. Beyond amateurish and incompetence.

    Fallon is now accusing Russia, of every conceivable hacking deed. Trying to influence the world economy. Reminiscent of an out of touch Cold War agenda. Of destabilising the world economy. What planet are the Tories on, they certainly deserve the crown. The illegal wars, banking fraud, tax evading. Causing massive debts and the worse migration crisis since the 11WW.

    The Tories spending on average £40Billion of taxpayers money on illegitimately attacking other countries. Trident the biggest, squint obsolete, dangerous weapon with the power to destroy planet.

    Now the Tories are trying to leave the EU. Against the majority wishes and against the public interest. They haven’t a clue what they are doing. Ill thought out policy. Ruining the world economy. Russia saved the West in the 11WW. 26million Russian died taking the brunt of the criminal Nazi attack. Devastating the Russian economy. US/UK a ‘special’ relationship of devastating actions in the Middle East and Europe. Disregarding International war. They are not in a position of lecturing others as a diversion to their complicity in murder and mass torture.

  338. Ken500 says:

    Greens shortage is because of bad, continental weather. Not ‘normal’ snow and floods. In Spain etc were the winter produce are grown. Imagine the results on leaving the EU. The increased prices and possible less available of produce. If goods are priced out of a free fair market for goods and services. Prices are definitely going up or produces are getting smaller with increasing inflation. Not sure about the shortage of lentils, (Egypt) sandels (EU) and Watermelons (various) yet. Likely less greens in the future. Along with unionists. A devolving ‘special relationship’.

  339. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT But I am watching RT and it seems that IOC have grave misgivings about the McLaren report . bet we don’t hear that on the BBBC.

  340. Bob MACK says:

    Someone asked yesterday if there was actually any difference between English Law and Scottish Law.

    The answer is somewhat simplistic but real.

    If there was no difference then Parliament would never have voted to establish English votes for English Law ( EVEL). Hope that helps.

  341. heedtracker says:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=178844

    Let Trump in, but there is an eye opener of a national divide.

    Heil Trump Scotland? only the tory bits, with loads of you know, from you know where.

  342. rongorongo says:

    Last section of the Queensferry crossing getting winched into position right now: http://www.forth-bridges.co.uk/queensferry-crossing/gallery-queens/forth-road-bridge-webcam.html

  343. Les Wilson says:

    Ken500 says:
    Ken, when elites find their bases crumbling they have a tendencies to lead into conflict at the very least cause troubling concern in the masses.

    The rhetoric coming from the UK via numptie Fallon seems to fall into that category. Also from America, especially under Obama, we will see how Trump handles things but it does not look good.

    With Nato troops and tanks now situated around Russia, they are causing a serious situation for the world. Obama was behind the the unrest in Ukraine in the first place. It is America who has caused a lot of wars and millions of deaths across the globe.

    However, in the case of Russia, they are dealing with the wrong man, and the wrong country. He will not roll over to western wishes. He has upgraded his nuclear weapons and is developing many horrific weapons to counteract western expansionism. Why, because they have to and will, protect their population to the highest possible degree.
    Western policies under various excuses are putting the whole world in danger.

    The west needs to back off, indeed learn to have a decent relationship with Putin, otherwise the whole world is at stake.
    Have we,the west, learned nothing?

  344. heedtracker says:

    Bob MACK says:
    3 February, 2017 at 10:29 am
    Someone asked yesterday if there was actually any difference between English Law and Scottish Law.

    I think we’re groping towards a written constitution. We all know why planet toryboy’s not up for one either.

    At the very least, lack of written constitutions, give guys like Rock a great weapon with which to beat the life out of anyone who dares to even try to explain Scottish sovereignty. Its an ugly display too, very ugly.

    Heil Trump.

  345. Nana says:

    @Andrew McLean

    I do laugh a lot Andrew, its my coping mechanism.
    I have made myself sick raging at what might have been, if not for the pretend Scots you speak of.

    Let’s all laugh at the crooked stupidity of the bbc and unionists like Murdo, laugh at their stupid straight banana plants in their audiences. Nothing gets them more riled than being laughed at.

    We will have the last laugh!

    Oh and by the by my friend in the US has very sore fingers lately, lol

  346. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    eye opener of a national divide

    The Border is very real whether it is open, or controlled.

  347. sassenach says:

    Robert Peffers @8-57am

    I think your open letter to the EU is a great idea. I’m sure there would be no problem getting signatures for such a thing.

  348. crazycat says:

    @ BobMACK

    The answer is somewhat simplistic but real.

    If there was no difference then Parliament would never have voted to establish English votes for English Law ( EVEL). Hope that helps.

    Are you sure about that, Bob?

    EVEL also affects Welsh MPs under some circumstances, and Wales does not have a separate legal system (ie it is not a separate “legal jurisdiction”).

  349. Scott Shaw says:

    Sensible Dave

    Troll be but you canae fool me. Git back under yer bridge.

  350. Scott Shaw says:

    Thanks very much for your reply Robert Peffers. Sorry I didn’t reply sooner as my wife and I are both disabled and along with a 3 year old life can be hectic.

    I liked the idea of sending a letter to the European Parliament. Would that be best done through our MEP?

  351. Scott Shaw says:

    Cheers Gerry.

  352. orri says:

    The rationale for EVEL has been fairly soundly debunked by the finding of the Supreme Court. If Westminster can manufacture abnormal circumstances that allow them to legislate on devolved matters then it follows that there’s little if any rationale for them to use a bending of procedure to allow a veto on that legislation.

    Now the government might use their standing on a manifesto that included EVEL as a reason for doing so but the fact remains that all that amounts to is an endorsement of the use of the English majority to override the wishes of the 3 other main nations and their devolved assemblies. In much the same way they are enacting Brexit.

  353. DerekM says:

    @ Scott Shaw

    You could also contact your MP about it Scott or even give the MP in charge of European affairs a try.

  354. Tam Jardine says:

    Robert Peffers

    Hi Robert. Can I suggest this type of thing should be directed to the EU’s official petition page: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/20150201PVL00037/Petitions

    Someone mentioned change.org but I don’t know why anyone would go down that route rather than the official route. Same is try for UK petitions being sent to 38 degrees instead of the UK government site.

  355. Bob MACK says:

    I appreciate what Orri (above) is saying, but in effect through design or fortune, Parliament has clearly acknowledged through the passing of EVEL that it considers there is a difference between English law (which includes Wales and N Ireland and Scots law..

    Whether they have a majority is irrelevant. The mere fact that they have recognised that English law requires a different legislature making different legislation from Scotland is the significant part.

    Remember that Scottish MP ‘ S are barred from such discussions because they do affect only England in law.

  356. Rock says:

    heedtracker,

    “Come on man with the plan, Mr know it all, who writes Scots Law?

    Its a simple question Rock and if you get it right, there’s another waiting for you.”

    Since you didn’t understand my question, I will re-post it for you:

    “If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?

    If there is, which one?”

    How does your meaningless waffle “We the people can write the law” answer my question?

    I am asking about the law as it stands.

    Not waiting for history to be re-written by “We the people”.



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